The Sun. — London, England, 1803-05-25 00:00:00

w••••••••milat, 1.11/C:4, Mail WC COMO. claw 4wlllC fly wen a disastrous War.. Of all things, now that the Contest had commenced,. he should deprecates speedrand insecure compromise with France ;, he hoped that the contest would he continued until real peace , anri.tranqUillity could be restored. Mr. Serj ean t BEST said, thatin hivopinion.too mach tune had been occupied in discussing the : Pa_ pets before the ',House ; for it was admitted on all • hands, that they contained abundant and' legitimate; mks of War, andyef the House were .still.discuss4 ing whether they should agree with the .Ad, &es- to His Majesty upon the Justice of the War.-- If he were' asked, would he go to War for Malta, he would answer, 44 No ; 11 - he. would . not go to War for Malta; or a much more extensive poseestioni in the. abstraa : but : it was,the man... per. in which .France demanded, Malta, it .was the dispo s j t i on , s h e , h a d . shewn , it, was th e designs . which she had openly av owe d, that in his' opinion • Stultified .this Country in. going u War; If .the alltallest apot - ,..0f earth was demanded of...tisi in the manner and under the,circumstances that France had , dgManded. Malta,_ 1w would refuse It, because lie would eimaitier it as essentially connefted' With the safety and the interest "Qf the He Was ready' . to a;imi r,.,lhat . between the Preliminary dDefinitive Treaires, Frante 'had repeatedly us cause for `'Vat ; but ii"` did 'net therefore folloiii - fhar Ministers were to lame for'not gning• total., fur it'tY l iin means follnWedthat'a•Country . was 'always to gtito War, whenever it had'a just cause of so The FrCneh GovernMent pro.: fessed a desire te 'have the "Treaty of Atni'ens strictly carried' into "execution, . and they had contended; that by that Treaty we we're, precluded front interferrog in any 'manner in - the affairs of the continent. It :was' impossible to coneeive a' more absurder ill grounded assertion than that by that' 'Treaty we had shut . ourselites nut from any - right of. interposing'in - the affairs of the Continent r..beeause it - so happened'that• ill - that very Treaty.tve did stipulate TO -the' integrity of different:States upon the Continent---What right could the French- Go vernmenthave..tocall upon us fur a literal execution of that Treaty, when F . :ranee _was at that very time, nut silently, laer, openly and. avossedly.planning K'qss intigtl , on both of the letter. .and the .spititot the Treaty • . . .-•- he was,an!dous to state.his .S!..it.otts xoting for the Address, and againoc the .Amcnknent which had beep proposed.. If no Amend.. silent kid been proposed, he should - have contented hinsielf with giving, a silent vote upon the i)Ccasion in f avour o f these propositions, Which' were so Clear in 'themselves, and had been soabry illmtrated, that a man'Must be hard to be convinced indeed, *ho wanted iitcther ilhastratinn; and lie Must be a Vain man who could exoeet to put 'the question in a clearer point of view than it oow was. 13nt the amendment which had been proposed,' had rendered necessary for him to say a few words in answer, to • the lion. Gentleman who 'had 'proposed the amendment, and these who had supported•it. Gen. tlemen had contended that it Was impuisible to vote • for the'original address, without precluding them:- selve s from entering into any examination of the conduit of 'Ministers. 'l f 'Ministers. Th is was a propo. s iti" to which he could by .ho means as sent. IF it 'was :only for the purpose of - guard. jog his OWff 'vote against such a • construction lie should-have , thought it necessary to have Iron. bled the: Houser.uron that point ; ,but he was .also anxioue : totontrovert another proposition which had beert.ed isnced viz. that those:-who disapproved. of the conduft of Ministers, were. bound to withhold. - 41seirassent from the, Address. ~He could not cons. prebend upon. what 'grotoul the_distioatoll which had been taken on these puinti, was 1144.0.4 1 4A1 as .ect. absurd, .for. it ;iron e d t o , him that, thele . two POilltS, viz* tlltjustiGei of War, arld the, can. duet of.Ministets,. might very fairly and properly be.aeparated.on.. the,prvent occasion. When they are engaged inn War.' e svith ,a great and p,,werfel, .4netuyi.their. 4 first .was,,t_o,as.sure the 'EXe. kiv g p +9;ll ,disc t should receive -the, support of Alig,railiarnetit and lift .. the •"gbe pp. 'Betty b ut at . t b e ,, Aagw. rinse warobig if:4,44ge heed lieenitny ~tlilnij!'npr(4Tr in their con_ duki, t h at t hi s geoeral - ,suppOrt protect 44114 at a prot r -er time, from exaMitiation ;hid censurcstkoOld neY:ekatz. :Ile did not: Mean t o thrb w out a'r l i'y irisintiations'agaitist the con.. duct of Minis ter;,, and if ;my, observation orhis had tli.tt tendency, lie begged before hand, to avow it. I-le woultlleserve what bebaa to say' Upon that paint to a future occasion. But- no considera: tionceuld :iffed . -the substantial-justice of the War ,on ' , the, part of. this- Country. In describing his opinion of the cause of the War, he could not do better than adopt the langtiage' of an Hon. Member (Mr.'DALLA.S) upon the acquisition of whose ta lents he Congratulated. the House. .It was a War for thc dearest interests of the British . Empire, into which we were Compelled •to enter by. the deep-rooted, avowed, and incurable hostility of France, , Whether Gentlemen might think that the stand of Ministers was not made at the proper point, still. there was net, there c ou ld n o t be any dikerenee of,opinien upon the justice' of the c ause i n w hi c h we were engaged. Whatever imputations might be thrown out against Ministers upon other points, no man could say 'that' . svitli re. gardto Malta, they had shewn any unwillingness to comply with that part of the Treaty nn - the contrary, they had shewn the greitest intinstry in negotiating and endeavouring 'ter'Carry theatiptsla. lions relative to that Wand into deft. If, there. fore, under-all the circumstances of the case,. - they kept Malta; the fault was' not to he 'attributed to them, but to France: The question now under consideration was, whether, Malta being in .our 'pos. session, Ministers were blameable in making their stand there. Upon this point his c‘pinion was cam. Pletely made up, and he entirely agreed with the Right Hon., Gentleman (Mr. OR,ENVILLE) that if Malta had been previously - given up, Great Bricain Would have been jUstifi:.d, after the designs so openly a v o wed by Fianc.e, in .endeaveruting again to obtain possession of it. This' being :the case With regard to Malin, the House was told, by those. Who supported the Amendment, that they had no right to anode to former grieVinces,.and that tiewever bad the conduet of Fiance might have been upon former . 1 4Ccasions,. 'we had no fight to refer to it now; be- C4111 . 1!c IL 4. 11 1.11.1, 4 . 1 !..• ?. 11. • • uluterStand that the former aggtessions or ranee were nOw.alludetto, being in thelidielves'ilis t and - substantive causes of War;. the t y troduced to shew the general'disposition and intco:- thins of France. Witholit discussing whet seers were "or were not'eulpahle in 'not 01:11:.inta ain't& upon these former aggreision, still their nit going tuWar upon theSe 'grounds could not preclude thtS Country, when a fresh canse . of *War arose; 'froth adding to its case these previous indicatiOns of hos. billy, Those'previouS ath ,of aggression.: But he would not . nolv - use - thein as 'patter• coMplaitit against France,. he would only use them histotieaf„ ly as indicative of the disposition of. France If the dispute about Malta had arisen between - this Cohn_ try and Spain, or Russia or Turkey, against whom we lied no' previous'canse . of complaint forbid faith, you might have justice on your side ; btit 'Sou could not strengthen your Case . against them by prodUcing any preVious ads of insult or aggression : but in the 'case Of France, you had not only a distind cause of War in the case of Malta, but that cause was strength ened by the uniform system whichtheFrencliGavern tnent, had adopted rOwards this Country; With regard :to the iniportattee of Malta,'he could only speak train what he heard or what he observed ; but upon that piliot he had the opinion of BOnaparte hitrelf, The importance of Malta was distindly proved by the .events which had occurred. When the French were • going to invade Egypt they touched Malta 'when the English were going to drive thent out of Egypt, they touched at Malta. The inference was obvious. As' it appeared now ' that . the Mediter.. railcar, was to be the scene of 'struggle het - Wren this Country and, France, Malta could 'not be; loOked 'span as unimportant. An allusion had' been made to a statement 'which appeared in a French Paper which arrived this day, that it was poesible to put Malta silo the hands of one of the three great Powers who were' invited to gpatantee it, but we had in aprevions part of the .Negotiatinn, • that' Russia .was the only one - of the three Powers'ltt whom'we could consent to 'deliver . it up, and he did-not un- derstand that there had been any offer'•4llade by Russia to garrisonValto, as well as to •guarrantee it. Theteforethis-: statement. in the. French Paper kit the case precisely where it was before- Same 'hil.. kid been said in the course of the Debate abOut now before us the experience of a century, in which Continental .Alliaoces had formed a part of the poli tical system of •this , Count ry •we had also the expe rience,of..two years. in which .we bad adopted a Aif ferent line of policy, 'and experience had shewn that the latter' plait was ,not the hest calculated to promote the interests, -or-secure thetranqutility.of this . Country. We had 'learnt, be hop4d, from 'this experience a lesson,--that when a Country had-oh, taitied a certain degree of gre:etne , :,,, it ,teas not easy for it to retire to a little and oa , row system. If we endeavoured to abstra4t ourselves front all Continental concerns, and to 10, , k for enjoyment and'. security entirely within oun,eives, we should -be ex , posed to insults, which it would be impossible to bear, and difficult to avenge. Thii was a lesson which. he hoped we'thould never forget, that to be little after we had been great, would , render safety impossible. A man might be happy withOutTheing aKing, but when'did abdicated 'Royalty enjoy tratt, We : had tried, since the peace of AtnienS, t he system of littleness, and we had found that tube little was not to be sheltered ; to be humble, not to be safe. it was said at the conclusion cf the last Contest, leave us but in safety at. home, and lei Bonaparte do what he pleases on the continent ; bift if Bonaparte should please to turn Europe against 'us, in order to achieve the ruin of the only Country that had withstood his "power, we 'should riot find our security increased by having insulated ourselves frOM the rest of 'Etircipe. These were the rounds Upon • which he ththight the 'war on the part of this country wan founded in justice and neeessity,.end these were the grounds upon which he supported the addres, 4,nrd „HAWK ES BURY said that after the gence wlriOt 'he hid experienced - from the HotiSe list ni%hr he should be ashamed again to trespass upon -theiF attention, except: merely for the pur -1,0,e of eXpiaining . , •a: lad, upon ''which • some ' of misunderstanding - Might ' arise,. he m e afft with 'relation to rtrie ' of the 'dispatches with regard , to the guarantee of ktissia.-:-- "With regard to 'thii : bilpateli, he wished it to be -Undersicicid; . .thst'eVen RUssin.would'accepi the military protedion of Malta that that 40111th - rot "a'satisidefory adjustment of the Alf ferences relative - to drat-Island% -; It was stated that RusSiti was the only Powerinto whose 'hands, Great Britaiocould in fad trust the proteaion , : of that Island : hut it was not' stated that - if Russia hattac-• ceded to that:proposal, that it-would have beert.per fedly satisfactory to this GOvernment. His asser • tion had been grounded on this circumstance—the refusal of the Court of Petersburgh to accede, t,o the. Guarantee, 'the Correspondence which had. taken place since the Treaty of Peace, and the sentiments which had been, expressed by the Ito sian Ambassador at this COurt. He wished also' to.obsery e, that the, ery' Missenger who had brought Coitnt Malkoff hiS InstruCtions to offer his good offices between the two countries lid brought similar instrudions to the Russian Athbassador at this Court. , He was not in possession of these struetionsin an official manner, so as to be - Vnabled . I'd lay them before the House, hitt they had been 'communicated whim,. and they did hot contain one word that held out the ides' that the Emperor of Russia was disposed to take upon himself the • tary protedion. of Malta. They..only contained general expressiOns *f good will, and a desire' theßussian Ambassadorin this Country tobeCome; if it should he necessary, a' channel for-any explana; lion that could be cattiest on between .the two Coun. The only expressions with regard' to Malta in those instrudions, so far from holding out the idea of a military protalion'of Malta, stated,•that it was ilk His Majesty's desire' to accept even of the ge neral guarantee, and . that- only upon the tenni which had been previously mentioned. Mr. FOX said, : that. after tire long discussion .that had taken place, after the very able mower in Which the-question had been argued on both sides, and particularly-after ike very full and able inves. tigation of the subjell tast night by his finnoti.r: able friend, be should be very, unwilling to I niat'feel' it"; war, ash: at hiure .duty - which owed - the ...People cite Englind.to , etultavuor, possible, iirrescue-them out of a situation of greet danger, at all•events of certain misery, •even if the eohoast in which they were abt,n t .t o engage attended with the must brilliant success. But bertate hi , eniered into the genera.' question, be tvi'Aeit t o s ay R. word or two upon the manner in . whidrit had been taken - op by different.Oeutlemen. Thea:e 'who 'had spoken in favour- of the.,ariginal Address Sad expressed an apparent wish to confine.. the discussion entirely to the 'justice of . the War, and in treat it. as an entirely separate question from the continCt of .His Majesty's Ministers.— Now with respeet to the justice of• the War, it could not, in his opinion, 'be' by , any possibility separated from an examination of the conduit of Administration, because the question of the, justice ; of the War, tnightin a very great degree, depend upon the refusal on the part of France to. give ex. planation, satisfaOion, or redress; and it would be necessary to know when and in what MannerMini eters had app!ied 'fat such explanation -and redress, but it- was impossible to contend that by 'Not.' ing for the original. addiess, they would not vote their- approbation to Ministers for their conduct, because the address went to thank His Majesty for . his uniform efforts to preserve Peace, which he , could no do until he had. more compleat prOols, of the fact. The' Honourable Gentlemen who ,sat below iiim ; would, per haps, concur in declaring that Ministers had been_ uniform in their desire ro.preserve Peace, but would 'they concur in thanking Ministers' for the thole of theireondtrei in the Negotiation A Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that there Was not a word in the amendment to which he was not 'ready' to accede ;. but that be would voiefor the original address, though it Contained some pas sages to which -he could nut give his consent without 'a long explanation, and without. entering his protest.. • It was then surely tretter to vote tor the amendment; in which all could concur, than to vote for the address, which) required so much explanation. --411 r. Fox went over the whole ground of the Correspondence between the two Countries, and Made comments on each partictithe parr as he went along, by which'he maintained that it was Manifest there was a great devil of shuffling on-both sides,. between the Representatives of. the two Countriis ; he disapproved of the demand made by the Chief Consul of France, that any one Member of the ! flouseof the Bourbon should be ordered to quit this COuOtry ; he had no idea, th'at under any pretence Whatever an Independent State was to he called on to deny to any unfortunate, or persecuted Emigrant, the rights of Hospitality.—He Considered the plication made to Us . to abridge the Liberty of the Pass, • to' be 'the offspring . Of the most profound ignorance of our Laws and Constitution, and a thing deserving only contempt and' ridicule, He thought that much too great stress had been kid On several of the expressions of Bonaparte, by the commentaries of Lord Whitworth, in his account of the conversation 'betWeett his. Lord.. ship and the Chief Consul, 'anti that the report kom memory . ola long Conversarioq, was necessarily, and at best; a very defetliVa thing ; he ridiculed some tonclusiona that' were drawn from the tone and . manner of Ennapart, that •he was proud and hanghty in talking of an attempt on our coast, and; saying that, it. was an hundred to.'one that he would be & i Strayed n.the attempt; anti that he spatted of, accomplishing his end ; 'this, he said, reminded' ihim of the most extravagant passage in the - moat extravagant work of the most extrayagn , a, 'though. admirable, oet,' Drydeo, Who , hadput into the mouth Of one of his characters, speaking to the other—"Vou shall not dare, to be so imp:lent as :to despair."--He tidicolettealso the.i t lea of sup. posing that Bonaparte _Would:have been s 6 extreme, ly foolish (unless indeed we supposed him to be fle e , Tor Bedlam), as to tell our Ambassador of his inten tion to go soon to Egypt, if he really had that in. tention. It was true he had expressed aib to go there, tint : Certainly, no design ; but the de%ire of a' person' Co du A thing 'vas not n ground for War, else we should never b,ive been at Peace e with the Hous of Bourbon ; nor was the sending a person to Ugypt to examine into that place, tear that has been : Often, done, As 'to the Commercial CrriaTtnis 'slorairs; who came here in disguiai to take the soimAings •of our • coasts, he thought that was : a gteat breach ,of faith; and they ought, to have been arrested, and satiifaelion demand ed and' if refused, that would !mire been ground for War ; bite there .was nothing of tilde kimcdone. With regard to the general system Of. aggraindizcment, unless tt affeeted us immediately, we ,had no. right to complain of it more 'than the French had, to complain of us . for our ag „granditemerit in Luba ;' if they accused us in this resp,-`te.t, by way of retaliation of our railin;,, he lenew of no answer wecouttiMake,'unlesa we imitated :ihe'Latly who was acecledof disregard oilier virtue in Orally iostatices—said, « never before upon my , honour, on this side of the Cape of GOO(' lie ridiculed ail the subjects of complaint made by us on these'general topics, and maintained that none of them were just caus,p 'for War ; anti insisted, -if 'they had been so, -we ought to be at perpetual War with the - regular Government of the,Houseorif 'Bourbon,.and,that we- ought to have gone to War, with Prussia and Rtissia, for the Partition of Polaad ; an Ott which, - notwithstanding All we had yet seen, still kept its pre-eminence in atrocity. In a word, he saw no legitimate cause of War in any of these things. The most unjustifiable of all the cc pluet of Bonaparte . on the subject of annexa, don or territory, was that - of .his behaviouroo Holland and to Switzerland, 'which was certainly, most cruel; but he maintained, that we had not a6ted properly in , these particulars. With regard to the abuse :,of the one .Government towards the other, there were but two Ways of disposing of that puint, either to tieMaril sairsizna,ion, or topass it overin contempt ; neither of which bud We foe. . l"weds bcgides, the parties in thisreaped.appeareti to he pret t y neat on et'level. Fiji general 'blame upon Ministers was, that if-they had : ally subjed of complaint, they diet riot : specify it aci a Egtisf.:;tion, Aim then, if satilaaton waa refused, it titne enough thiok of going tO,Wai, for insult was' g loat - i - d t a r War. Xt war> the refusal ,n)arldetil was'gr ! Ji!oci for War.. Thif, the who* of the can of azir:!yatiou it Was jajsisitd Lynn On the part of ,;,7r meat; at,tt he maintained that we ha(l* iwt.o in our cOnrse in not dera,mtling f,r it insult whenever weinet it, insteal of watifing for au ' 6teninniatlol l of insults, and then to make ihe rota a .stibjecl of complaint ; he accused both side; .l gteat deal of hypocrisy On thiS and ; Cfl.4l4.: ed us w:ltj) has ing gone.at la,t to War upon a Stitdc.; principle; .that the possesiort of NLlta, and lot whih it was improbable we, shotildName Alliances; because the thing:in contest AVas. ipierest. ing to none but,oursel yes: The remedy -, for . all .thiS . he Statettto he. that' of an a l yeal to (he Great Monarch; the Emperor, of Crst fo becOme Gtiarantee fur Malta, after Arbiter betwei : n and then; if tharench,showid persist in their co r, re of injustice, the prObability would...be that" we should have Allies, because the Matter in contest would then be generallY intereiting. Ile said that this 'was the only coarse that could wisely I taken - by us. He then proceeded to take a view of the probable effeel of War, and punted thern in very glowing colours, and took occasion rn ob,erei upon the Income Bill and other T.t•ises, wlik.it must be: renewed if we go to 'War ; he applied many of his observations to the eloquence of Mr',l ) ,tri, who had. recommended 014 War, and advised 'the frOuSe try be.aw.,r! of the ruin of theii Conntry,hy the debt-, sive arts of eloquence, on 'width he expatiated at great length. lie,observed, that the Aildteei stated a fait} which but few cold assent to, naniely, that Ministers had been sincere. in their encleavouri to preserve Peace, and which no one assented to out qualifying his' s vote ; whereas the ,Amenklinent stated that which every body iitlinitied to be true ;..• the way therefore. to produce unanimity in the' House, was .-to adopt that whielf every body vilitted to be true, 'instead of prorsing that Which. `nobody could asseni to without qufliticationi for these, - - and a prodigious number - of reasont.,, for which, weThave no room (for:Mr. Fox spoke for near • three hours), he,concluded with'saying he heartily concurred in . the Amendment.' The 41176" EL L 0 &of the EitCH that.he,never heard with more admiration the ta lents. of, the Hon. Gentlenan, nor had greater oc. easion to lamer,t chat the : . efFusions of his Jrccat exalted mind 'hauld have been employed for the. purpose for which they were then applied. 'lt.eer tainly was„ nut the intention of that Hun. Gentle. .man to produce the eget% of unhinging and turnery., ing the House, at a period the must important for the consideration of the most momentous subject chat could come before Parliament ; and he could not help lamenting, that the powers of 'birch hhoOld have. been so employed, and to give eneOurageMent where there ought not •to be encoutagement given,, namely, to our ,enemies; not that it could be so intended, although it might be 'considered as likely to have such effett. He would put it tti the candour of that Hon. Gentleman's mind, and would askitim, upon reflection, whether thought the language, he had used was nut likely to accom.: plish an objeEl, which he could pot-wish to have ac comPlished ?—Whether he did not think, that deo scribing thet,subjeft in the manner in which he had :described it; was necessary for any good purpose and whether he thought it fair to .make such an ap.. peal as he had done to the feelings of mankind, for the purpose of enlisting them, as it were, to fight - aefainstrtheir 011,qt:duty ? Soch mien lie the , feel - of the eloqu'ence of the-Hon. Gentleman that • night ; but be hada firm .reliance on the good sense and fortitude of the People of - this COuntrY ; and he 'had a perft # co:lviaiop that at that mo. 'ment they ;felt the daoger of their situa tion, and would not be led away by any arti fice or eloquence t whateVer. He should not fidlow the-Hon. Gentleman into a' minute actail of this case he shOuld rest it upon its plain and obvious good sense. L Having been ore of those who'adviseil lit I\ l l.ljesty to bend to Parliament the Message on which the Addresspow before the HouSe was Moved, he wag satisfied to rest with the Bouse,, the. cOnsi, d.fration of . his morives, and that of his colleagues upon this occasion,- and he hoped the House were satitified . that no reltiztatice bad ever bun shewn on hid parttn enter into that discussion chat he had been desirous to have 'it considered kly 'the House, and 'that, he had lrequta fly. expressed ltis mind to that efE.Ct; forthat •he Pratt said, that he should .not shrink from the moment of discussion ; but on the 'contrary, had Avaited with impatience for the arri 61 of this.moment ; that every part ofhis .con, duct might be canvassed by the Hon 4. He earn.: , estly wished also to obtain, and he truster, he-should obtain, the concurrence. of the Hous - e, in 'every part of his condpft in this particular. .The' hope which he entertained that such a diseossion woliltl rake place before the House, i was now fulfilled. He hoped' it would be the general-opinion of .the House that night, that His Majesty's MiniSters had been sin. core in their conduct, and.their endeavours to pre. serve Peace, although the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last,had said they were not so,iuud had objeeted to the Address on that aceount; Now, what were the words oftheAddress in that particular ? ." That this House entertains a just sense of His Majesty's anxious and uniform endeavours. to preserve to his People the Blessings of , Peace." Such were the words, and he never expelled to hear in that House, that such endeavours for the preservation of Peace had,not beep sincere: He now, however; knew 'there Were many ; he wished to God there were not so many, whin thought they were ,not sincere in socheodeavOurs, anti there were others who thought that,, although they were sincere, they had :Oat been wise in their endeavours to preserve Peace. - He 'then : proceeded to take notice of what ,had been 'stated by - Mr. FOX lay way of comment on the declaration of His Majesty un the .subjea pow before the House-- 7 un the- point of the . nities—on . the subjeft of the- French TroOps not evacuating Holland—of the suhiett of Parma and Pla`ectitia, and . the anitexafioo.of 'Piedmont—of the - ease ,of Switzerland, and cm the various other topics stated in that Declaration. Upon .all which topics Gentleman seemed to insist that His Ma jesty's Ministers had not petformcd their duty, in. atimuch'n4 they had omitted to make specific R e . monstralices to Fiancit tti each of these cases at they occurred, instead: of waiting for the acti,nou,la.