The Sun. — London, England, 1803-06-24 00:00:00

the Militia ; hedefended` them from what lie consi tiered as the sneers which the . Right Gentlethan ba•i thrown out against them, and expressed the highest Confidence in their, discipline ami,courage. Mr. SHARIPAN - said, he rose to -deprecate what he considered as a .premature disetission upon this• Bill : It was understood that it wars to he corn, mitred, to up the blanks, and, then to be;recOm. mitted and printed; he•wished therefore to avoid any discussion until the Bill was fully and fairly before the House. He hoped. - there would he- no. • more invidious corriparisons or acrimonious ianguaAe tespeding the Militia, though he admitted that %c hat had been 'said by the' Hon: Gentleman- who spoke last was in some degree, called. for by whit had fallen.. from a Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. , WrNoitAit) on a former occasion •l-le hoped that Gentle Men on all sides would occupy, themselves only in augmenting the means of defeoce of. the Country ; and he trusted that although the Com mittee which had sat .upon the King's - Message -had not asked leave-to sit again, yet that some further means of defenee would be adopted. He could not help differing froth die Hon. Gentleman who spoke_ last, who said he would have no 'objeetion to bal loting for then to fill up the Regiments of the Lir`le. He was sure the Hon. Gentleman would not upon • refleattion think 'of forcing men into the Regulars, who would' then be at the disPosal'of the Crown, and wro might be sent abroad upon any service that w. ,s thought riper. The case was very dif. ferent as far as respected the internal defence of the Count ry.• Every man was boom' . to stand forward for the:defence of the Country in case of Invasion, at , the command of the Crown, or even the Sheriff; . but it woad he ‘Too much to force • men by ballot into the Regalars to serve during their lives. He declined at present entering into any further obser. vat ions upon the Bill, as a Inure regular time would covie for discussing it. 'Mr. CALCR AFT, in explanation, said,. that if it Was necessary to fill up'the Regiments of-the Line, ana if that could. not be done by bounties, recourse must be had to stronger measures. Sir G. IIEATLIC,OTE argued upon the necessity of adopting strong measures 'of defence, and note. to w a i t till the Enemy had landed.. As to the rising en masse, he considered it• as nonsense._ If people were' afraid to meet the danger, lie should have but a gloomy rasped of ;he safety of . the • *Country. Mr. W. ELLIOT said, his objeaion to the Measure was, that it would go to prevent the establishment , of a large, Regular Force.- This he considered as nel:essary for the future safety 91 the Country. It was' the only e forc that was fit _ for offensive operations, and certainly ,the best for defensive ; for certainly a well-timed aggression was, -in many cases, the best means of defence. This was so obvious, and so generally admitted, that it was not'necessary for him to press it any farther.- He knew that this COontry could not have the same Military Force that another Cotintry . of equal,po. pulation could have, The extent of her Navy tuck 41way rutny men from the Army, besides the gene. x 4 prosperity of the Country, its opulence, and the m extent of its anufadures, were many reasons why irsi , Army could not be recruited like those of other Countries. But he thought the experiment of re. cruitiog had never fairly been•tried, because when. ever they tried to ger a large force for the Regular Army, it was always sure to be counteratted by raising a large force also for domestic service; and while ten guineas bounty was . given for Troops of - the Line, 'fifteen' guineas. at least, .and sometimes snore, were given for the Militia service so that the people of this Country were taught to look for large bounties. There was a great diversity of opinion about the Militia. He confessed lig was a friend to the principle of the Militia, and‘he : was afraid there was a shade of difference of opinion upon this point between, him and his Right Hors— ietvl (Aily.W N 011 A. NO, Mr. WI No tt4t seemed tit italic ..ate by his manner, ,that there was no Alif. .feretwe Of_opinioty between them:]-1 - le was glad that he did not differ from ltis Right Hon.. Friend ; •but though he wag/a friend •to the general principle Athe.Militia, he certainly never would have con. ..aentekt, to inetease: it beyond its origiOal number of 30,t200 met!: It had been said, that 10,000 m en'tinght 6e raised. in this way; without' feting with recruiting for the Line ; he admitted this might - be tor t , if they were raised by ballot; Irit if' they were !raised-by bouhty, it certainly would interfere with it. He trusted . that the Cuveroment would see the impropriety of raising .nicn' for a limited time, and that they would never Rave recoutse tb the pradice of drafting. He.was , of opinion that we should tit last be obliged to have recourse to balloting to fill up the Regiments of the Line, for they must be filled op, and he-did not see that it. would be produfflve of more inconvenience than the present measure. . The safetyof the Coun. try would be risked, if they did opt meet an itivad. lug Enemy with the'bell Force that could be pro'. ' 1 , cared. That , the Militia.would upon- that, and excl.)/ other OCCafrio,ll, be found full of courage and of enthusiasm, he had no doubt, but it certainly would he necessary to mix „them with a very large • proportion of.Regolar Troops., The case of AMetica had, upon a former occasion, been.alluded.to, and it was said that the American' Militia were able to face Regular Troops-butthe case of Amevica wit extremely different from that of Etigland.' In Ames, rica the nature cif thecountry was better calculated for Irregular. Troops. That the Anierican Troops were very good ones after. three or foin campaigns, ire adtnitted, and so would the Militia of England with the' same experience, be equ a l to a n y Veterans -upcin Earth, though ha confessed he 'should be very sorry that they should be taught in:that manner. Scotland had always furnished e of the best and, • bravest:lroops to our Army, and certainly afforded the best 'means of recruiting from the eXistente of 'clanships, &c. but in. order to prevent, as it were, rectal:ling in that Country, a Militia. was formed, and 6oco men werelocked,up.in it. • In Ircland he girl not doubt but that a large Force would be ob.' wined, atid,•by the 'means ofbaboting, though they were 'told 'some time ago, that balloting in that country was iinprotticable. At the'close of the last War, the 'tvlifitia,of Ireland was disbanded, and 1X en:6r wai established„ but it was not to leave was said; itulet:d, that they would t• lui;;'eur their bcrvi - &'a to thi4 , Countty, but he had rather, for many reasons, that it should be a matter of original stipulation,' than of kilontary offer. If we were to persist 'in this timid, - irresolute system, apinst an Enemy who was all; vieouvand enter_ prize ; he , worthl not say he wotild.deSpair, because he hoped such a sentiment would never enter his breast, but he confessed his hopes would be very much depressed. He saw 'no reason-why- this tne.a. sure waspot brought forward at a much earlier period. Ministers ought to have been* prepared 'in - Mardi. When the King's Message was. brought forward; they ought ,to have begun to prepare in. November, When they detected Militart Spies who were sent into the Country—they 'ought to • haVe been preparing in December, instead of amusing the Pub lic with delusive accounts of the state of tire Finance, and holding out_prospeds of a reduced Race Esta. blistonent. They ought, in short, to have been_ preparing ever since the Treaty, of Amiens, for it appeared by His Majesty's Declaration, that from that time the conduit of France had' been one series of insult and violence, lie concluded with expres, sing hi s disapprobation of the 'present measure, for the reasons he had already stated, :and because it seemed as if Ministero'..were determined 'to tread hack the errors which had prevailed in our Military system. • Th. SECRETARY at WAR said, he dicrenter tails the hope that Gentlemen would have delayed' the discussidn upon this 'Bill till the blanks ;were filled up, till it was pTinted, in: shore, till the Bill was fairly before the House ; if that course had been adopted, much of this discussion would have been avoided, because if they had waited till they_ had seen -the Bill, they would have seen that there was no foundation for many of the objedions which had been made. Ile however achnitted, that Gentlemen were justified, if they thought proper, in discussing, the Bill in this stage. The Hon. Gentleman who had spoken .last, had spoken' of treading back our former errors, but how this measure, which was new 'in its principle and unprecedented in its extent, could be called treading back* our fornier errors, he could ritCop6eive, The Hon. Gentleman.had also complained that this plan was ill_timed, and that it ought to have been prodticed sooner. Upon this 'point be did not think .that the Hon. Gentlemati -washothe out by His Majesty's Declaration, but he contended, 'that ever since the conclusion of the De. finitive Treaty. of Peace, every measure had been adopted, consistent with the pradiee of this Court. ' try, to keep the Army and the Navy upon a large ' establishment. It was Open to the Hon., Gentleman who spoke last and his Friends, to come forward hist Session,, and to have declared their sentiments,: if they did not think Ministers were'doing enough for the security of the Counr:y. It. certainly. WWI not incumbent upon them to.come down and propose - measures, 'it it was open to them; , - nay, it was • i llicit-duty to deliver their opinions -upon the mea. -sures which Ministers proposed., He : now came to :those observations which had been mask 'respeding the advsntage. of a Regular Army. Nobody, he believed, .ever asserted that a Regular Arm.. was not the .best ;bot the Hon..Genilcman had • himself i stated the reasons why Wetcould.not have as large *a Regular Army as other Countries of equal popula. tion. The insular Situation of the Country, its civil and commercial occupations, its opulenCe, the circurnstance of our not having any intern a l War for above a century ; these were all reasons why we could not have so large a Regular Army as other Countries differently situated. ; The Honourable Gentleman had said, that the ReCruiting Service 'had not:been fairly tried ; to ibis he could only ' say, that the contrary was thel'ad ; a great, deal had been done upon this pointe 7 The Honourable Gentleman seemed to think that it was a compe. titian of bounties that kept men from the Re gular Service ; this he denied ; in point of , it was not money that got soldiers for the Regular service; men enlisted for many' reasons, some because they wanted 'to 'go ab r oad, s ome : because ,they wished to remove from the place where they were, and to change their situation ; in short they enlisted for 'many reasons-beside that of Money.— In the course of the last year the 'number of Re cruits obtained for the ,Army was equal to,. the average number gerierallyobtained, and in the last or, 6 months, the number had been greater, although the: recruiting for the Militia was also going on. The recruiting for the Army was now going on successfully (Mr.*EotaoT shook his head.) The, Hon. Gentleman seemed to deny that proposi tion, and probably had better means of information than he had, but as far as - he was able to judge, his assertion was corral'. The number of men now procured was upon an average as great- as had been procured since the Treaty of Peace, that is .to say, from boo to r zoo' men per month. But it was obvious that if a large force was immediately ne. cessary, such as.force could not be , collaltil :in that manner, and that - recourse must be had to some putter means. It had.been said that we had not had recourse to the measures that were adopted last tear, he cer. tainly had the highest respediaod eireri - trenerrition, for-the Administration of that time, hat still he caild not - approve of all the measures which we re , then' adopted. The Right Hon.. Gentleman then • adverted to the Otte of the Army at diffeient pe. clods of the last War, particularly in 1J96, and con.: tended that it was such as ought not, to induce Gen. tlemen to advise the adoption of a similar system. TheAttestion now was simply this, what we oug h t to do at, the preseot 'time, and under the preSent dircumstaneei ? had undoubtedly a large, - a very large Armyi•on foot, bat at, the same time , We' were hard pressed on many pointer; and it was al so absolutely necessary that a large force should be' raised, and he denied that they could be raised by • recruiting, in the ti m e which was necessary, for the regular Army. ' Mgt it was said this was merely a,' defensive system, and it was recommended. 'to bal.. lot for' the Army.- Upon this point be agreed with an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. SIitRIDAN), and should oppose such a measure open every constitutional= principle. Every titan cues bound to stand forward' 'in defence of the couOtry in time of danger,. that was the principle upon which the Militia was' [bonded, and that was 'the principle upon Which he contended this measure was .founded. wni a, measure for the defence of the United Kingd om ,‘,,- tie Should thereforer'objed to the plan which had been Suggested of balloting test the regular artily; becaLoe'it was not regular, and because it was not , *. • constitutional. There was one thing he was !olty• he did not mention, when he was opening this:mea &tire to . the r Hon'se, as it might have take- way some, .though not all `. of the objeftions I lota. Gentlemen had-made to ..this ;he ttkeant the power which was to be given to men to enlist " voluntarily from this force into the Regulars. It ..appeared to.him..not..t.o tw.nccos4ry to introduce a - clause into. the Bill for that purpose, because if there was no clause to pre - Vent It, as there was in the Mi. litia. Laws, he conceived that the men_ would of, course be tildwed to 'Volunteer' into the Regulars.-- If, . however, the House was olopinion that such an affirniative clause ought to beintroduced, he had no. objedion. The' Hon. Gentleman seemed to consi.:. der Scotland as the Officinalllilitaim, and had con. tended - that the establishment of a Militia q.tem, there had prevented, recruiting ; . but he should Coiled that the growing prosperity of that Coun try, operated as strongly against recruiting as iu England. The Hon. Gentleman should also le6l, that many of the Scotch Highlanders Were fur_ fished by London, and that there were perhaps as many English and Irish as Scotch in these regiments. ile .would not now take up more of the time of erne House, he hoped they would consider this Bill, as the best that,. under.all the circumstances; could be adopted to raise the greatest number'of men in the shortest time. Hr. PITT said, he certainly viewed 'the cues. tint in a very different point of view front the Hon. Gentleman Who spoke last but one ; indeed it was almost precisely upon those very points upon which the Hon. Gentleman and his Friends opposed this measure that he gave his assent to its general prin. ciple, subjed. to those improvements which might he. adopted when it came into a Committee. In his general approbation of the principle of this Bill, he'was the more confirmed by what had fallen from his Right Honourable Friend who takitist sat down,' particularly in the la t t e r p art o f ,speech. He considered this Bill as.being that wjlich appeared to him to furnish the most pitimpt and efficacious me. thud of providing for that which he considered as our first want, a, large defensive force, and as lay ing the only sure : foundation of giving us, within a reasonable time, that which he considered as neces sary in , the.progresS of the War, he meant the pos session ola Disposable Force, to enable us to take advantage of any opening that might occur to per mit us *to at offensively against the Enemy. If,' however, he was which of these two oh. he wished to see first accomplished, he would' reply, with great submission .to those,whO.seemed to have excluded- every other consideration from. their minds hut that of offensive warfare, that A.: though he wished, as much as any man, to see the spirit of the Country raised—though he wished not only ttisee the atteMptS of the Enemy repelied,but his presumption chastised—though he wished not only to see'hl4 'designs frustrated, but his. insolence pu nished, his power reduced, and' his inearis curtailed, yet he must say, that at such a moment as the pre. sent, we Must take counsel front prudence, as well as from spirit ; .our fitst °Wed, hoth,in cirdif . of time, mid in ordet of reason, ought to be that of lief - ending ourselves, before wexoncurred- in - the-plans of those Hon. Gentlemen, for irtilidint *Vingeitice Trr' the aggressioni and insults which we had: sustained It we were so romantic as to say, that the obtaining a defensive force, which would he sufficient to (Hs appoint the proud expedations of the 'Enemy, * was a consideration below our notice ; if to "ensure our safety against an Enemy who had compered, t - erri. fied:and oppressed one- half of Europe, was a task. too humble for us to stoop it' was' thought that. we had better add to the list of 'his- Victims, if we could not le enrolled as his Conquerorsif Gentlemen carried their sentiments of heroism to that extent, they would certainly be justified in op posing, this Bill ; but he confessed such were 'not his sentiments.' He therefore begged leave to.state, - that without renouncing active and offensive opera. tions in due tithe, he was content .to 'ste . that vi. gornus efforts were now Made ro ensure the defence of the Country. Nay, he would go further, and would say, that if he could not otherwise provide for the, effedual. Security of these Kingdoms, he vicoild 'do It oven at the cost Of:all offensive operations . for the future,. Therefore, if this alternative WAs put to:him—you cannot in two months proVide a Regular Army for geoeial service, 'but you can in that time provide a force amply sufficient for the . defence. of this Island,- (even it it were true, which he denied, that the procuring of this force would prevent you ioftiture from ading beyond the limits of the Island), he would without hesitation adopt it.; he would make this, Island a proud exectirtion from thealiame and oppiessiOn Whiehovcrwitelnied the Continent,(though in some cases it was riot their Own fault,) rather than preniaturely indulge in - tda'ris of offensive operations. Whayevetwas the number cif of our flames now, and he believed it was mote than double what We evcctiad at the cooonencement of a. War, if we ' wanted to add to that Force ~iococoo,. or 126,060 men • to secure the defence'of these King dom,, and if .that, number of men vould be obtained for litnited, though they could, not be obtained for general service,' and if we should at - the same time have ruin' titteatening tis, at our very doors, he would rather submit to what some Ge»tlemen .con sidered. is degrading concessions, and make our internal security our first, though certainly not in due dine, our only objett.. He, however, by ,no means admitted that the measures whicluwere now properly proposed to-be adopted as the trleansofsafety, were such as would prevent us, whenyhe oppot tu,nity occurred, from adive offensive operations.; that 'point \va's by no means, in his opinion, cle'arly established. He said this upon the best considoration that he was able to give the • sub- led, and he assured the Hove it was one to which he had not now turned his mind for the first time,' it was',One upon Which he had deeply and maturely refteded—,He would not now enter into any dis. • cussion upon the state of the Army last War, or upon the 'means by which it had been recruited, although that was a suhjed which appeared to be completely misunderstood-by many Gentlemen, and even' by his Right Hon. Friend who spoke last-- But without entering into that ptrr of the sulijed ,at present, he was of Opinion that, even from the statement of those Geotlemen themselves, the mea sure now proposed, and those . which might naturally' be engrafted upon it, was the best that could be t adopted at :his rreommt and under tree present cheers stances, even for• raising a force for general service If then we had two ohtels to obtain, the first 0: which was to ensure our safety and secondly, that • of being,strong and adive for offensive warfare—, It there was but one way of attaining the -first ob._ jeB, :that of being sate, viz. that of raking a large force for limited service arid if that could b e shewn r` a - 1 - ;:isTsiro — ritTe : * * OtcolleCtini a large offensive • force, he should desire to know what more could be.,accesury„ to_recommend ,the principle-of the i sure now before the Haim ?- The House Was not now' eallecLupon to.adopt it itidetalls,the questionwas only, whether theYaPp.roVed - io. : MuCh of the outline as to :induce-. therdto.idintri a Committee upon it, in Which it might be improved and Correfted, if it were necessary, - in order , to make it as good, as possible' ,I for the purpose for which it was -intended? His groun&for entertaining these opinions wa s this, he contended, that unless you meant to begin witlia proposition which appeared to him to be preposte. ' rous, unless they agreed with his Right Hon. Friend,(Mr. WiNeiftwat), that we ought to . have Militia at all, he admitted; -indeed, that his Right Hon. Friend seemed to indicate during this De--• bate, that such was not his .opinion ;7but he %co • excusable in supposing that such were the setitiineno* of his Right Ron... Friend, when even his 14011.,* slu'rrie of l ent hearing (Mr his .ELoto s T pte )r e v he ho s n i o n t. only had the 1 11 F 3 !. public, but had alit ' adva y titage of knowing his. .sentiments sectned.to think there was a shade of tlifiercnce or opinion between them upon • that subjed. Boat iE the House were to agree with those I lon. &Tile' • men, either that we were to haveno Militia at . alli or only a Militia 0130,000 men ; if we %vete nowfo ' h at A d s: leha i aro s p,t l in i n,pe a leyd n :t d .., tru o oaan u kslu r icees: l ..s a ti r t we er if intr i e, a ete.i l io : rvd t i a efl i r : ptel l iit i ar s a l ilitiia,erntstith,w9a hick we t et t the ii", ;e l r; it :5 ll ; PLf • which was now , propemed, and:which was so muc h decried. There• must certainly sohsist a atta in drgree of Cohopetition between she 'Militia and the , , Army, and the estahlishmenr 'of a - large Force must necessarily obstrull the Rccrinting • the Army—this was a proposition which he was WI to admit ;-bur this was a consideration which cod"- * , not have escaped those by whom the Militia was first established, and those by whom the Variotl % 01. respeeting. the Militia had since besn proPg seu during a period of more than 40 years. -liw a ! said that the establishment of a Militia ivas patibte - • with ou.-4Y04-o-0.;-s---Mittrar •C ntry— r frtl / with our possessing' the ineaiis of - 61114:6 - itre"'N' er-: :ations. But before the, House acquiesced in therie propositions,' he begged thent to recolleß W hen it '• was that the Militia system was introduced , af l3 see whether : it was then, such an impediment 10 10 • Recruiting of - the Army---Whe cher it did i . s ; effeCtually damp or spirit of the Coniti)',. It was 'introduced at a period to wfiich,we•shriviA be referred (with the exception only of-tire'nfor.i°cl wars of the Duke of Marlboroug h) as that 0.-ortr--Itistory,..in w hich we had ei nharked - .. 4 11,;:: 'deepest irCdntinental lAirtbrition, iri moo A r Army y of, wa s tn i e i u , s sl in ae u d el t l o b i e t y s o u nt ir i ( .1 ) t.perxol7err4 extent n r t he; ben the general system of this C o untry I r r e e ( I T; a charafter, of vigorous and offer' 3i " wa ar of. the had ever done, with' the exception on ly :M at e d. to it w g , l t i a ic v li ely he a 14settlite;iti hided. He w".' cs'l .11.••• he' - lore naturally riot a little 0 11. i lrieal o t" a large Militia Force was i t nc hi: '" l i i ; riii).cl i lsv : t) l icl ' rj l eC ~se ß .tx u ri u ts t t i e t ir iv : v ee ; t. of a .large of the • this was a sa il f u t e i s : et admitted,io. Miotfi! even da i e Y g r t e 'Sy e p , itri a lio n t 11): stated it his Right Hon. Friend, (Mr. WI-NDH Am) , to species of—the forte- .of this .Country were that their different degrees. Now t if it :stilts at ft aa<►t hair Militia,. to. the extent .of 3 0,000 roe s ' nsiderett,. good inits kind, aUcl if that Forte was,. co. • as necessary forty years ago, those Hon. Gende-ft! el ,.,' ••' would'admit that .under the present circuingaficelY a. larger force of every kind , was ne cesSary,: r 'l . l we wanted 3 0 ,000 fur the• Militia -then, vie % a much larger Force now. It must.be o b v ioaist° ' every man who considered the events whiehbadrOc"' corredifor the last few years in Eorope, that the ne; cessity fOr, a Defensive •Force was augmented i n ; much larger pfoportion than our necesslity fo Offensive-Force; because it could not bc, that the Force which we shoUld want to cartr ti the War abroad, would be equal to that which %c c _ should want for' the purpose of defence at home. , offensive Wax... Must bear much - more a ndlogY former times, than our means of Defensive' W jfg d . lie part in which the pressure had must inerelsec, Was for. the purposes of defence, oot excigtijog the same.time the means of offence. He shoold then''' . • fore think that it was no Objeaion to this treilj tifl ; that it left us the means of offence .equal t6. 11... " s a dy possessed by our .Ancestors. He was 0%.„ i -° nd to admit„, that if we could procure, with c„,.cP . facility and prornpututie,alarge,Force for gsr'''', l ' SerViee,. it certainly • would be n iore de , tr i ; ,c than a Force ,for limited serviee.l He 'admitted a•Frirce that had seen a great deal of service where the - Officers had obtained:experience awl by long aes‘vici, and where the } Troops sharers in the labour and glories of the where they had obtained that whic h nob e" ou cr i i 'rulea of discipline could inculcate , and w hich c, be learnt in no other sChOOl ; he a cicnirredt 05'0'4! t leo • body must admit, - that such a Force - wou l d 'best, 'both for the purposes of offence and:deferes' But .if the 'plan which -had been - Suggesti. adopted, if you were to ballot men for gener 4 , 3l .-' io -vice, did 'Gentlemen 'suppose that in baffottiogr:e - men ytio,could also ballot for skill aticUeiperi',.: it you took men from the loom and the ri" , t it 'b oce was it to he imagined that the inereseircw ° coo , of their Ding into.the Regulars would. at °" G' sett: them into: experienced dnd disciplined soiT 11 you Were: to ballot for men for gene ral e 1 110 vice, did aoy man s uppose t hat in the course 1! year they n ould be more expert, more disesp.lll‘ tba" or more tit to meet the Troops of: /3011aPrief no, they would be if raised under . the plor Fric posed for limited service ? if indeed 801 l o f coulCartel be prevailed tu,n upon to onto' 'attack.,enterlo ca you until your .new kyle* had acquired" Per