The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-24 00:00:00

Nouse to pledge itself to adhere to these principles, and to oppose thi3 mction which had for its object the entire recon struction ef the pri party of the Church in Ireland. The lien. Member who proposed it stated his views a s to the reeen struetior tn °years ago. He said that he would give 70,00/. to the Protestant Church Establishment, 700,0001. to the Presbyterian; and Wesleyans in Ireland, and that he would give the remainder to the Roman Catholics. That was the principle which was now under their consideration. It was a question of opinion, and, if they granted 26,000/. out of the Church property this year, they would have to grant a great deal more next year. The question W as, whether they were to reconstruct the disposal of the P r operty in several ways, and to confiscate the property of the Established Church in Ireland. Were they justified in making any such appropriation? Were they standing there as legislators looking bark and viewing all the circumstances connected with the Union, and ti - e understanding entered Into to continue the support of that Church at that time, justi ed in consenting to such an appropriation? It was impossible for any person to read the words of the articles of the Union without feeling sail fled that it would be a breach of a most solemn compact to confiscate the property of the Church of Ireland. They must consider the circumstances under which the Union was t assed, and ask themselves whether the Par liaments both in Ireland and England did not give additional security to the maintenance of the Established Church. With reference to the Nlaynooth Bill it was stated that the Emancipation Act could not have pa sed if the proper ty of the Established Church in Ireland was not understood to remain untouched. If they adopted this princip'e what effect *mild it have upon every other description of prop ert y ? Let them look t o t h e f or feited estates in Ireland, allowing that those holding them became originally possessed by ac ts of vio lence and spoliation, were they justified now in going back and looking at their titles and shaking the foundation of property of this description ? If the Hon. Gentleman would deal in this manner with church property, he would affect all other pro perty to the same extent.—( Hear, hear.) There were for instance man Acts of Parliament which migh t be held e q uall y unjust. Let them look at the contract existing? He did not but in favou r o f t h e Bill o n the grounds of that cont ract, put as there was an understanding they w ere not justified in tha t i t, and they were doubly fortified in using argument with reference to the Established Church, which was a solemn endowment in the ter ms of the Act of Union. He believed it involved the itation of repudiation, and the National Debt. — ( Hear.) ,!eY might say, w ith rega rd to the latter, that they wou l d de et t e - Pay it, as they had nothing to do wi th it, it was entirely act of their forefathers. But no, the feeling of the people of this country was too deeply involved for them to take such a co urse, they b e li eve d th a t it was a national compact , and h e 'Ted that the property of the Church of Irela nd mi g ht he eon sidered i n th e same light. Such a course would lower the allibnri lY of Parliament and shake their confidence in this country to a great extent. He had the evidenc e of an Hon. stated that of that House ( Mr. Blake) o n this sub j ect, who that he considered the Protestant establish ment he i t great link of connexion between the two countries, b • e ing established by the fundamental laws of the •realm, and could notbe disturbed without danger to all the bhs thes which they derived. He ( Sir T. Fremantle) supported the ,Established Church on higher grounds. He thought it fe• y of the State to ma i nta i n a re li g i o us establishment ; s ome rm of Christianity should be maintained by th e State, and should be subject, in some respects, to the control and re gelation of the State. The Roman Catholic Church did not t it had with the se con di t i ons ; the Established Church did , and l ad been connected with the State, and, as a Protestant, he ,011 could not consent to i ts su b vers ion. He would ask the l ourable M em b er (Mr. Ward) what c ourse the y r7 e re to t a k e ? Were they to adopt the voluntary .principle, endow all sects, or should they throw everything in Ireland ' t 7t . o a state o f th e greatest poss ibl e confusion? The appropria tion of 26 ,000/. from the Church property in Irela nd to the assistance of the Roman Catholics, would be the ground for renewed applications for a great deal more. They would be to r r,ing a bone of contention, for which they should not cease e_ and for many years to come. It would create discontent 'iSc! t=oile religious animosity in that country, to an extent to which it h ad not been hitherto carr i e d. The contest would eenOt for power, but for money. What would be the ling of the Roman Catholics ? They would say that they got but a m i sera bl e i nsta l men t.—( Hear, hear.) Would it satisfact or y to t h e P ro t es t an ts? While they withheld any theung from them, they would consider themselves aggrieved parti es . N or would those w h o were ag itating for a n a ti ona l G overnment be bribed from prosecuting their purpcse, and made m ore firm supporters of the British Government by any c oncession of this sort 7—( Hear, hear.) The Protestants Would h e the very much indisposed to continue their attachment to Union - their best supporters would become in that case, t i er hatm, their most deadly enemies. The Right Hon. man then then referred to statements made in a work called b Ireland and its Rulers," which he said appeared to be written 2, gentlenaan well acquainted with the two countries, and in Establishments it was remarked that the abolition of the Irish Church ..,t,heablishments would be a heavy blow to the Union.-- Z te rl r, hear.) The feeling of the Protestants against such ie", r appropriation would be as strong in England as _not:land, which was shown by the many petitions which had 7 ded the table of the House.—( Hear, hear.) It was stated slat_ s t a hat the existence of the Established Church in Ireland sa monstrous insult and injury to the people of Ireland. He denied_w the possession such was the feeling there. He wanted to know 'l7 insult to of property by one particular pasty could be Is u os ' sess : o :o the rest of the community. He must consider the Individual, of property, whether by a corporation or a private Stance that do!. one particular church, as an accidental circum stance who didl not n imply an insult, an injury, or a degradation to notions were ot possess it. It was quite clear that these • w en the Roman tur h entirely removed in the earlier part of this cen terfere with te Catholics disclaimed any desire to in used lan_guag property of the Established Church, and they eto that effect n their to that Honse for relief.petitions when they came purpose of They used those expressions for the negativing the possibility of their entertaining the idea that the possession of Was an i nsu l t or an i • prope r t y b y t h e E s t a bli s hed Church inure to them. I n MS, in their petitions they stated that ..they did not repine at their possession or envy He inclined to thi n k t h e Protestan t Church was justified ni maintainin g i ts r i ghtsand at the same time he was equally prepared to admit , that to those righ ts man y duties We re attached. rhe rant Mto in the 1; g aynoo th c ould not be taken light of an act of restitution. It was consistent Wi th tustice, a nd not in the least at variance with the t °4111 3 7 or ' principle of the Established C hurch. He there retrusted the Honse would support the Go vernment in carrying the Bill. Si r WALTER JAMES very much agreed with his H on _ Fried, who h a d j u st sat down, that grave and technical l le Petit/us might be placed against the motion of the Hon. 'ember for Sheffield. If the Hon. Gentleman carried his Point the House would be going into a Committee ascertain the Eceesiadical Revenues of the Irish Church, i nstea d of go ing into Committee on t he Government Bill. He thoughtalso that there were grave constitutional objections to the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield. Looking at the importance of the Act of Union, „,R e t h etould not be classed among the common Acts of Paella- Zrti.,nie thought it would be insulting the Irish Protestant extentuu h if they were to go into Committee to ascertain the power of vih lYn ch t its revenues, instead of for considering a ee ' II uIPIY had for its object the endowment of . the College of maynooth and constitutional •• When he stated that grave technical t ion, he felt objections might be made against the mo of the also bound to confess that he thought the subject Posed, Irish Church must, before many years were R espectio rle seriously under the consideration of the House. d *ti r in g its, as he did, the faith of that Establishment, andat "erYthin c reed—devoted, as he was, to its liturgy, and 0 fel t it g which ever had or ever would belong to it—he still one to be the duty of Parliament to take such a step as the th e g o l rsed by Government. He had been anxious to address cived se uPon the subject of the Bill, because he had re consitmanY serious representations from large bodies of his aoyeruents' praying him to offer his earnest opposition to the h owee ernerit of the Right Hon. Baronet upon it. He would, eoa 7er, have been ashamed of himself had he given any ters of ppn te r nane e to these representations. All his family had been Catholic Emancipation, and he thought it was e esaion ut! still to continue favourable to the same spirit of con- Ponied by an Pitt intended the Act of Union to be accom • frie et h a A an Act for the payment of the Roman Catholic nir e tr . e. uo. Amonst those who had made representations to w oold tTn this subject,' there was a body of persons whom he for t h not pass by without expressing his sincere respect on e I I : 1 `°: They were Wesleyan Methodists, than whom no rise r ld done so mueh to 'advance the cause of the Chris- N Vesl When he remembered the fields in which the eateoeyan I l lethodists laboured though perhaps not like the 4,2licpriests, whom they had so often reviled—when he trenue, inhered that tat kingdom that, in the mining and colliery villages of this he always saw the Wesleyan , minister with the atiel ,u 1 his hand, spreading the truths of Christianity, t o savocating the principles of the Gospel, he felt bound give h• eiettr, e I rn his sincere though humble respect.—(Hear, this ' The practical views which had been taken of ee,etquestion by many Honourable Gentlemen or at all of th B , l e ,''Y the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor to y ;er;xchequer and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secre- Inerely ,Irelandwas, that it was simply a small measure for anti a grant from 8,0001. to 20,0001. per annum, kw:l sl e t Right on. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh • s e i t ' d why, if they consented to pay 8,000/. for wretched foc'eui.k! they refuse 26,000/. for comfort and cleanliness. 4leeat• his part, he could. net take so narrow a view of the We t ° n' He considered it, so far as his fellow -countrymen and e erneff, a large and conciliatory measure, involving, • sly to lead to many important results. He wished the h ad te U tot e -, ~ at the conciliatory spirit in which the measu : e eied een received in Ireland—(Cries of " Hear, hear ") to lo o k t : h eo to say whether it was not more just than thof • an a s a .e measure rather as one a series of measures tuld Was ,Ingle measure. It was so looked upon in Ireland, rep eas ;;ls e o considered by the Cork Southern Reporter, which h er g _teEt the feeling of the principal Catholics in Ireland. seeept re d the Catholic clergy of Ireland would be willing to tele tat r i e additional boon, if it was given them in a spirit of th e °r* and kindness ; bu ' t then, if that were done, of course ettestee.esretion came home to him, " Where is the money to Of ?" Well, then, if it did not come from the people by hi e s atn s d, he was bound to ask himself was he doing justice Your mi low-countrymen by saying to them, " You pay for tor C r et n claurch on - account of conscientious scruples—you pay or es "tell also, and now you must pay for another" He the Inch in this instance, not only to look to the interests of re sts ": Church, but he was bound also to look to the inte /easte what his Right Hon. Fr!end the Member for the Uni the e t °__f Oxford c a ll e d " t h e nearer an d d e a r er institutions of tutu of England," and he cautioned the House not to Th ey dissenting f e ll ow - coun t rymen aga i ns t *!set Church. Or not do anythi ng which would give a severer blow , neavier d• e, ed • iscouragement to that Church, which he be ete uo rested upon the affections of the people, and which, truthful words o f M r . H a ll am , "i s sus t a i ne d by, and d for th e people."..--(Hear, hear.) He wished to this units at, befor e h e sat down, some of the ' religious objections to I neasure gate c ap ., It was said that it was not their duty to propa sth Catholicism • and here he would take the liberty of asking eee lt Was Catholicism ? There might be error of various kinds, °: err • 19it h th:r might be so slight or so insignificant compared en the raany truths which they disseminated with it, that not b rain some could not say that his own creed did %eigh t b ‘ a ul tome portion of error. Error, on the other hard s o eso false, so abominable, and contain ' in it something ' foree ver a et a e nti-Christian, that it was their bounden duty to come a liti.s ll t _ s tid resist it. He did not believe Rome was either c oa `eti tian or idolatrous, and yet his Hon. Friend, in his e • h e nce,leelieved Rome to be anti-Christian, and adopted a, goted expressions in tbe petitions which bad been lurch of ainst the Bill. Now although lie saw much in the D a i nt r .. oae . to deplore, he was far from believing it to ,l an ti - Christian Church, for . it was able to pro. ttte not truth,, notwithstanding its . many errors. He k sely t o "" any one proposition that was more nee_ false Church, nee stn _!'al/ the foundation of his belief altogether, than to to which our ancestors belonged, taught '• : doctrines that it was perfectly impossible for any the W ho belonged e f ee t to it to reach salvation. What must be kor a k in gs of those entlemen who came over to this country a Yneoth College,they when, as advanced towards tla tiglititele:etlte first thing that met their eyes was a dozen or !eteti a l ragamuffins carrying immense placards concerning oane o ts e against the grant to Maynooth—with, on the one gaunt walls of Westimineter before them, and on t a l s le e its 'Lher gre tb a e t eemparatively fille r y w o r k o f M r , Barry ? What, disgu sts"a must be their feelings but those of distesto, if not of for ha r it y e did not 100k or benevolence of England.—(Chee , e) theone Buda or the father • but tatting the whole of them in to / consideration, he conceived, nes the only way in which he could explain what occurred to his mind upon the subject. He looked upon this as one of the most serious questions that could occupy the attention of Parliament; he conceived that State policy demanded that it should be carried out, and legis lative principles did not forbid it. He had been reading over some public documents recently upon the subject of the Irish church, and he had found by them that sums of money, to the amount of 12,700,0001., had been granted to the Episcopal Church in Ireland, independent of revenues which the Esta blishment had from other sources, within a certain period ; that the Presbyterians in Ireland had received within the same period, 8435,0 01. ; but the sum total of the grants made to ahe Roman Catholics within the same period was only 365,0001., for nothing more nor less than the support of Maynooth. Well, then, the people of Ireland had heard their religion abused, and this miserable pittance begrudged them, and could they in England therefore wonder that the Irish people should have a feeling of soreness at the injustice done them, and that that feeling should have spread over the country from one end to the other ?—( Hear, hear.) He would contend for it that religion had nothing to do with this question. Reli gion did not contradict conscience, though it was founded upon it. The arguments in its favour might be supernatural, but they were n t unnatural, or such as should force a Governme t to an act of injustice. He was much struck, on the first night of this debate, at what had 'taken place in that House. He had seen petitions from the Dissenters, and from the towns and from the counties, some few from the Established Church party ; and, last of all, came the miserable petition that had been presented from some place in Ulster.—( Hear, hear.) But yet, when all that display of bigotry and fanatical passion had subsided and gone down, then there remained that still small voice within all, which told them they ought to do justice, to love mercy, walk humbly—not as Protestant ascend ancy men, not as violent bigots—but to walk humbly ha the sight of the great Creator of the universe.—( Hear, hear. ) Mr. M. GIBSON said that the Hon. Member opposite ap peared to have the faculty of seeing further into future results than the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government. He had said that the day was not far distant when the Legislature would be compelled to take into consi deration the whole question of the Irish Church and Church property in Ireland, and in that he (Mr. Gibson) fully con curred.— (Hear, hear.) He had heard the Right Honour able Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland's speech, and he should say he was surprised at the Right Honourable Gentleman's doctrines.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had spokon of the property of the Irish Church as a thing most sacred—( Hear, hear) —as a thing par taking of Divine origin—and, therefore, was never to be touched.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, the Right Hon. Gentle man's argument amounted to this—that if there happened to ' be but one Protestant in the whole of Ireland, still the pro perty of the Irish Protestant Church should remain untouched. —( Hear, hear.) If such were the Right Hon. Gentleman's argument, he (Mr. M. Gibson) would wish to know how he would reconcile the transference of the twenty-five per cent. Church property from the Church to Irish landlords, which should have gone to a fund for the benefit of the Irish people ? —( Hear, hear)—or how he could reconcile the taking the Church cess out of the hands of the Protestant clergyman, and leaving it to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to administer? — (Hear, hear.) With regard to the proposition of his Hon. Friend, he would say that they must admit the principle that Maynooth should he endowed, before the House should be called upon to the consideration of the question as to what funds that expense should be defrayed from, because it was only upon those grounds that he considered that the fee-simple of the property of the Irish Church was ves'ed in the State.—(Hear, hear.) He had not had an op portunity, on the second reading of the Bill, to state his views upon giving a permanent endowment to May nooth ; but he quite agreed with the Hon. Member for Stock port, that this was neither a religious nor a theological question, but a question of education, and that upon those grouuds the Government were justified in making it.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think that the Government of a country should inter fere in matters of religion in taking such a step, or say that questions of religion should form a ground for refusal, for that would be adopting the principle that the religion of a country should form aground for giving or withholding certain civil ad vantages.—(Hear, hear.) He conceived that the State had an interest in the education of all men. He looked upon the Roman Catholic priests as men, and therefore they should be educated.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He would ask, was not that the logical deduction ? The Government were not bound to provide the particular plan of training that the people should undergo. The State had merely to provide the funds, and, that done, the public had the advantage by the State having been the means of raising the moral standard of her Majesty's snbjects. He contended that there was no system of education which had not religion more or less mixed up with it ; and therefore, when the public were taxed for education, they were also taxed for religious instruction. — ( Hear, hear.) As to the proposition for defraying this expense out of the church property funds, he would say, he did think it a very just ap propriation of these funds. The church funds were intended to be applied to the best uses to which they could be put—the Government was the party to decide that; but he would say the very best uses to which they could be put was the advance ment of education ; when these were found to be too much for Protestant purposes, then he could not see why the surplus should not be appropriated to some useful purpose.—( Hear. ) Hon. Gentlemen opposite who opposed this motion had not shown that the 'Protestant congregations in Ireland had been increasing; on the contrary, it was well known that they had been decreasing ; while, on the other hand, the Roma n Catholic congregations had been, year after year, i n creasing n Ireland in a larger ratio than formerly.—(Hear, hear. i ) On these grounds, then, he would say' that State en dowments should not be confined to Protestant establishments. If the House went minutely into this question, they would find not only that the great majority of the lower classes of the Irish people were Roman Catholics, but that the great bulk of the peasantry who were Protestants had a leaning to Catholi city. He had heard of one parish in Ireland, in which there was not one Protestant ; but the Protestant rector, expecting the visitation of the Bishop, to inquire if such was the Let, borrowed the Roman Catholic congregation from the parish priest, and thus, when the Bishop arrived, he saw a very thronged attendance of Protestants in the church.—(Laugh ter.) He believed that no part of Europe or of the civilised world could present such an anomaly as the Established Church in Ireland ; and, do what they would to the contrary, until some sweeping means were adopted in rtgard to it, it would ever attach to this country as a badge of reproach and disgrace.—(Hear.) He would say this Irish question had not yet been solved. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite had ad mitted the difficulty of it : hut he (Mr. Gibson) would say that it never would be, until all ascendancy were done away with, for there should be no ascendancy of any sort.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He did not think that the State should grant to Ireland this favour, not from fear, but from a strong conviction that the Irish people had a claim to be placed upon terms of perfect equality with any other portion of the inhabitants of the British nation. —( Hear, hear.) Nothing but equality of civil and religious rights would do ; and if that course were adopted, then would there be a real amalgamation of the Irish and the English people, and both he a happy and contented people.—( Cheers. ) Sir J. WALSH said it would appear to him that the Hon. Member opposite was an enemy to all Church Establishments ; but he ( Sir J. Walsh), being an advocate for'such Establish ments, as most necessary to the happiness of mankind, he would oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, because it would strike a blow at the Established Church, both in this country and Ireland. The Honourable Member for Sheffield had stated certain grounds, with which he (Sir J. Walsh) fully concurred, though he could not concur in his conclusions.—( Hear.) He admitted that three of the provinces of Ireland contained a dense popu lation, the majority of whom were Roman Catholics, but there were a great number of Protestants in those districts who possessed wealth and intelligence, and were, therefore, a most im portant part of the popu lation. He raid this, in order to prevent the existence of the impression that there was no religion in Ireland but Roman Catholic. From what he heard during those debates, it would appear to him as if there could be nothing gained on one side which was not taken from the other. A most unfortunate state of things existed in Ireland, destructive of the internal repose and tranquillity of the country, which it was the duty of the Government to remedy, as far as they could. —(Hear, hear.) So long as there was a feeling in Ireland that she was treated with injustice and humiliation, so long would a feeling of irritation and estrangement towards this country exist. The Government of this country ought, there fore, to apply a remedy to those real evils under which Ireland was suffering; but that was not to he at the expense of others; and at the present juncture he thought that the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, was ill-timed, for it might do much to neutralise the good effects of the measure proposed by her Majesty's Government. He admitted that the Church of Ireland was in an anomalous position—( Hear, hear ) the state of Ireland was quite as anomalous as that of the Church. He thought it was much better frankly to accept the boon proposed by her Majesty's Government, than to excite feelings of irritation in Ireland. Nothing would have a more injurious effect in Ireland than arty concessions that would increase the danger of the Protestant Church in that country. If the present motion were carried, so far from tranquillising Ireland, it would have a directly opposite effect. He hoped that the measure of her Majesty's Government re specting Maynooth would be followed up by others tending to soothe the Catholic population, but he trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet would consider that the honour and faith of the country were pledged to maintain in its integrity the Protestant Church of Ireland, and he trusted that he would not, in any plans which he might have in view for the amelioration of Ireland and the Catholic Church, do any thing which would have the slightest tendency to render less efficient or less secure the Established Church in that country.—( Hear. ) Mr. MACAULAY said he was desirous of catching the Speaker's eye, because . it so happened that he had never yet had an opportunity of fully declaring his views on the im portant question now before the House. He was not in the country at the time when this subject was before discussed in Parliament, when it had almost thrown every other question into the shade—which convulsed the whole political world — which divided the administration of Lord Grey, and overthrew the short-lived administration of the Bight Hon. Baronet.— ( Hear, hear.) The motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield went to the whole question. It was true he only asked, indeed, for 26,0001. from the Irish Churcn, but he understood his motion to go to the whole question. It appeared to him to resemble an ejectment from a single farm, for the purpose of trying the title to the whole property.—(Cheers.) He did not conceive that any on persowhn could reasonably vote for his Hon. Friend's propositio was tiSSt prepared to go further. — ( H ear, hear.) And, on the other hand, !se conceived that every Gentleman who opposed his Hon. Friend's proposition, must be understood to do so with the feeling that the whole of the property of the Irssh Church ought to continue exclusively in Protestant hands.—( Hear, hear. ) The question then was, whether the Established Church was an institution which ought or ought not to be maintained ? He should have thought it a t ruism—thoogis the discussion upon the subject led him to think tit that as thone e which had not occurred to any Gentleman on opposite side of the House who had spoken u pon it—that when the Legislature was going to decide whether a great institution ought or ought not to be maintained, the first thing to inquire into was, whether it were a good or a bad institution. His own opinion was, that the Irish Chuich was a bad institution—that it was a very bad institution. —( sine 1, Hear, hear.) That was his delibe rate o p inion, long enter confirmed by much observation and reflection, and an opinion he thought he could support by most unanswerable arguraentors. He was not new speaking rhetorically, or with exagg ar gu e did he intend, nor vela it his wish to excite an y an g r y feelings, atiore n but it was his deliberate opinion, that of all institutions Ireland exist ing in the civilised world, the EstaLlished Church in Cheers) —and was the most utterly absurd and in d e fensible—( he wished fair no better proof of that than the course which had been always taiosn by its advocates—by the course which had been taken by its advocaiaz that night.—( Hear, hear.) He would only ask any Gentleman u he had ever heard any person argue the question on its ineva,;,.-- (Hear, hear.) lie had heard, indeed, of the articles of the union, which ohight not to be violated. Well, but there wore articles of the onion quite as important as the article relating to the Established Chuseloessifikse la re gulated the relative number of Members w hich were to a:t ip t hat House as Irish Members. But those articles had been . aliereji 1 47 that House, and upon the motion too of the Noble Lord the Secietasy fur the Colonies, with the full consent of bite Right Hon. Baronet opposite ( Sir J. Graham), with the full consent of many Gentlemen in her Majesty's Council, and whatever Hon. Gentlemen may thick of the Reform Bill, it was one of those points upon which the two parties were at issue. lie would venture to say that, from first to last, if there was a single article of the union which ought to be considered more fundamental and inviolable than another, it was that which settledathe comparative numbers of the two parties to the measure who were to sit in that House. He therefore treated the objection to the article of the union as frivolous. But even if the article of the union was all that the defenders of the Established Church asserted for it, did that prove the Established Church to be a good thing ? —( Hear, hear.) Then he heard something about the Catholic oath. Well, supposing even that that oath ought to be taken in the spirit in which many persons considered it should, did that prove that the Established Church in &land was a good thiag ?—( Hear, hear.) When he was told that Roman Ca tholic laymen and prelates, when they were struggling to be relieved from the disabilities which pressed upon them, had no objection to see the Protestant Church continue, could any proof be derived from that, that the Protestant Established Church was best for that country ? ( Hear, hear. ) Then there were objections to the form of the motion. It was said that was an inconvenient time to move the question. These were merely accidental objections; but were there any arguments to show that this was a good institution? Then again—but he was almost ashamed to notice such an argument —the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland — he was surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have made use of it—said " that if you adopted this motion you would unsettle the security of all landed property." Did not the Right Hon. Gentleman see the great difference between property in which some person had a vested interest, and pro perty in which no party had a vested interest ?—( Hear, hear. ) The Right Hon. Gentleman might as well have said that in 1817, when that House resolved prospectively to abolish the offices of auditor and teller of the Exchequer, that they were going to unsettle all the vested and funded property in the country, unless when Lord Granville dial an auditor of the Exchequer was appointed to succeed him to do nothing, or when Lord Camden died that some person should be appointed as teller to do no thing.—(Cheers and laughter.) There was, then, a wide dis tinction between the two cases—a distinction which he felt con fident the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Robert Peel) at least would fully recognize. But, after all, what were they doing but shifting and evading the question ? Had they heard in that House one word as to treating this subject in the only way in which it ought to be treated by any statesmanr— ( Hear, hear.) Had they ever heard any person say the Established Church was a good institution ? Did it answer any one of the purposes for which an established church ought to be instituted? Had they ever heard that? Had they heard it, or anything of the kind to-night? Did any'divine, did any speculative writer, did any person who ever wrote in defence of an established church, put it upon any grounds in which the Church of Ireland, as it now existed, could be supported ? ( Hear, hear.) Why, there was not a single ground on which the defenders of an established church supported such an insti tution, which was not a satire on the Established Church of Ire land. There was not a single authority for an established church, come from where it might, whether from Protestant or Catholic, Conservative or Liberal, from a divine of the Church of Eng land, or a divine of the Church of Scotland, from which it could not be shown that the Irish Church was so great an abuse that it could hardly be conceived bow it existed.— ( Hear, hear.) Was anything to be found like it in the whole world ? Was there an instance to be found except Ireland, where the Church of the minority was established in opposi tion to the great mass of the people? Such a case was only to be found amongst themselves. From the White Sea to the Mediterranean, from the Volga to the Atlantic, there was no where an instance of a great establishment being given to a small minority. From Mormonism in America to Mahomedanism in Asia, it was not to be found. In some places there was the voluntary system, in several places there was a church connected with the State, in other places there were churches receiving pay which were not in connexion with the State, but in no place except Ireland did the church of the minority enjoy its establishment. In Eng land, the Established Church was the Church of the majority. In Scotland, the Estab'ished Church was the Church of the majority. He did riot know whether it was so now, but, at all events, it was not the Established Church of a small minority. In their colonies they had done much for religion, but even those dependencies of the British Crown where the people were attached to obscene and bloody superstitions, they did not establish a church for the minority. Whoever thought of parcelling out Bengal and the Carnatic into curacies ? There was only one country in the whole world which presented the spectacle of a population of eight millions of people endowing an Established Church for eight hundred thouaand. — (Cheers.) He had heard it argued at other times, and that night, that the prosperity and intelligence of the country belonged to those who professed the Protestant faith. That went directly the other way. He could conceive only two cases in which pro perty ought to prevail over numbers. One of those cases was where the object of the institution was the preservation -of property—for instance, in a railway company the man who had five hundred shares ought reasonably to have more votes than five persons who had hut one share each. The other case was where you wished to have a qualification to jndge of a man's intellect. As a test of the intelligence of men, sueh a qualifi cation was indeed the only test that could be applied in certain cases. That was the reason, he apprehended, why, in certain eases which required a higher intelligence and greater judg ment, they selected special jurors in the place of the ordinary common jurors ; but none of these cases a pplied to a Church Establishment.—( Cheers. ) So far from that being the fact, when you institute a church, you ought not to think of one ricliman being equal to five poor men, but of (me poor . man being equal to five rich men — ( Hear, hear)—for, in the first place, the public ordinances of religion were of more import ance to a poor man than a rich man. He did not deny the im portance of those ordinances to men of all ranks ; but the cir cumstances in which the rich man was placed—his being able to have recourse to the best works on the subject of divinity, being able to held communion with the minds of such men as Barrow, Leighton, and Hooker, rendered those ordinances of less importance to him than to the poor man. The poor man had no such books, and even if he had, he had no time to read them, and they would be of no more advantage to him than to a Hottentot. The difficulty was, in the case of the poor man who had no other food than potatoes for himself and family, but was yet obliged to sell his pig in order to pay the religious teacher.— ( Hear, hear.) He was in favour of an Established Church himself. He thought there were great evils in the voluntary system. If not prepared to take the same view of the volun. tary system as many of his Hon. Friends—it was not for the sake of Lords and Baronets, wealthy merchants and country gentlemen—they would have whatever religious teaching they wanted—they would have churches, cathedrals, organs, com munion plate, and all that conferred dignity and pomp on re ligious worship—it was not such as these he pitied, but the poor man who, out of his hard earnings, was obliged to pay fis. a year to the Church.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Take the alternative. Would they have him go without religious instruction altogether? That wou'd be a great calamity, not only to himself but to society. Was he, then, to pay for it ? All must say it would be a great hard ship from an income so moderate.—(l - fear, hear.) Was it to be derived from charity ? That-was a most precarious and most humiliating mode of supporting a Church. He thought it was most desirable that throughout the country, from one end to the other, even in its remotest parts, there should be houses of worship where the great body of the people could be reli giously instructed, and would have a priesthood to which they could have ready access, not as a matter of favour, but as a mat ter of right.—(Hear, hear.) But did that apply to the Church of Ireland? In arguing about the English Church, the advocates of the voluntary system opposed it, because of the nature of its foundation. They urged many arguments against it, whilst its advocates urged many in its favour ; but, on the whole, he thought the pre ponderance was in favour of the English Church. Bat when he came to argue against the Church of Ireland, it was found there was no balance, no counterpoising weights—all the weights were in the same scale.—( Hear, hear.) All the arguments which could be used in defending the Church of England would tell against the Irish Church—against the church of the few—the church of the wealthy —that church which, reversing every principle on which a Christian church ought to be founded, " filled the rich with good things, and sent the hungry empty away."—(Hear, hear.) But there was another end which it was urged this Church would attain. It was admitted that it did not administer instruc tion to the great body of the people, but it advanced to an other end. What was it ? I was a proselitising church. The people were not yet Protestant, but the Church would make them so. At present there were but shepherds, but it was said the shepherds would find for themselves flocks. He had heard . that same argument ten or twelve yeers ago, when a proposal was made to reduce the number of Irish bishops. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Ox ford then made use of a remarkable phrase, which he well recollected, " We must make allowance for the expansive force of Protestantism."—( Laughter.) And the Hon. Gentleman further added that " Bishops may be now too many, but they will be soon too few." The Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire said the other night, speak • lug of the missionary character of the Church of Ireland, for he said that Church had a missionary character, that it was in such a position as soon to spread the Protestant faith through out Munster and Connaught. He must say that if this lan guage had been held in the Councils of Queen Elizabeth he could conceive 'there would be some reason in it—if Sir William Cecil or Sir Nicholas Bacon were called in to discuss the ques . tion he could conceive their entertaining such opinions, and using such terms —they might say " We have but a few Protestants in Ireland now, but we, who know how rapidly the Protestant faith spreads we, who remember when Martin Luther first began to preach in Wurtemberg, and now see one-half of Eu. rope embracing Protestant opinions—we, therefore, expect that Protestantism will be speedily diffused throughout every part of the sister country, and that it will s3on become the Church of the people, in fact, as well as in this country.". Such might have been the sentiments of Cecil and his colleagues, and they might have been excused for such reasoning, but when this Church had existed in Ireland from 1560 to 18.157 when they had before them the experience of 285 years, it seemed incredible to him how gentlemen of ability could hold such language.—( Hear, hear.) And what could be done for a church that had not been done for this church? Had it not been loaded with honours and dignities—had it not been fenced and protected, up to a late period, even by penal laws—and as to money, was there ever- - on the face of the earth a set of rectors who received so much for doing so little —or a set of bishops and rectors who received half so much for doing twice as much duty ?-.-.‘ Heir. hear.) And after all what had they to show: —The most zealous Roman Catho'ic population on the face of the earth.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Where the Protestants were 200 years ago, there they were still—(Hear, hear.) They had not only failed in trampling over the domain of the Old Faith, but their business was to maintain their own pale. The Roman Catholics were still ten to one against the members of the Established Church. --(Hear, hear.) Now, he should like to ask Hon. Gentle men opposite, whose zeal for Protestantism was so great, to what could they impute this grand tailure;? If he were to speak of it as a Roman Catholic might be supposed to do, he might exclaim, " The divine protection has preserved our Church from great danger, and the same Pro vidence that turned the curses of the Prophet into blessings, and destroyed the Assyrian host, will render our Church victorious over all the policy of eminent statesmen." But what further arguments were used—that the tenets of Pro testantism were un known for a long period to th e C a th o li c people of Ireland ; b ut during ten generations of men they had remained the same. Yet, notwithstanding Scripture and rea son were on their side — t he y had, he repeated, Scripture, rea son, and wealth and p ower on their side, over a naked, destitute, and oppressed people. The Catholics of Ireland were not merely lukewarm Catholics —not Catholics merely i n name . Was there any country in Europe in which the Prote s t an t f a i t h existed, in which Ro man C a tholic doctrines were so tenaciously h.nd go generally held as in Ireland? After 300 years they could boast of little, more than an array of bishops, deacons, and rectors. But this was the n.1.t4r41 consequence of the policy which they pursued—it flowed from treating a Church as the mere machinery of Government, to perform it s wor k an d a ttain its end without being either loved or hated—just on the same principle pa the army, or the navy, or the police force, which was to work on in the Battle manner, whither loved or h a t e d. The yeomanry in Manchester were disliked, but they continued their operations, dispersed the popul ace , an d f u lfill e d q i „li r en d. What did the y do in Ireland ? They for c ed a I.Oitile (lurch on a conquered country. They posted th e m in the same nianner as their. perlOorp• Garrisons were natural. t did not otter ' s s.he mustth e o r bs t e h r e v y e ; , :e t lovedparocohri parochial cait:rdg,:uivte 'were it e was il. of so With 'isle Church': ' The Church atempted to proselytise, iff " e " r ve re r g iV ardi rr tr Ita Ct d l o g c r i e r 4 in o e f s, il trey i 'm w si t s li tat h i b ;1 4 0 ; e w t i l fittest t:e:s i t i l d o e : r . y making might d THE SUN, LONDON,_THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 24, 1845. admit the force of its tactics, employed Jesuits and other orders of religious men in the work of conversion. He did not recollect in the whole range of civil history of any en dowed parnehiat clergy effecting any great work of proselytism. In Ireland there were many strong reasons why the clergy should not busy themselves in works of conversion ; they were a visibly endowed clergy, and bad no great motive for zeal ; and accordingly the Bible, through which they meant to proselytise, had not been translated into the Erse language until 125 years after the Reformation, and then it had not been translated at the expense of the Irish Protestant Church, but at the private expense of that great and good man, Robert Boyle. The Right Hon. Gentleman then quoted the opinions of Dean Swift as to the idleness and riches of the Protestant clergy, and observed that it would be remembered how the revenues of the richest sees in Ireland were squandered on the shores of the Mediterranean ; and his epistles were to be found, not like those of Peter to his flocks, but in the correspondence of Lady Hamilton. What a contrast between the minister; of the one Church and those of another—the one revelling in wealth, and with nothing to do, and the other visiting the couches of the sick in their wretched cabins, and from scanty means ministering to their temporal as well as seiritual wants. The Right Hon. Gentleman then quoted the opinions of Mr. Hume regarding the expediency of a State Church, and the benefits and evils of the voluntary system, and observed that the Irish Church had exemplified all the evils which Mr. Hume said belonged, not only to the State Church, but to the voluntary system ; for it had, un the one hand, a wealthy and indolent priesthood, and on the other, ministers whose+ position forced them into every description of excitement and agitation, The Right Hon. Gentleman went on to speak of the miseries which Scotland for twenty-eight years had endured under a Protestant State Church, when Lords Lauderdale and Dundee commanded there, and asked what the condition of Scotland would be, if the established reli gion of this country were yet kept up in Sc eland—the same bitter feelings of enmity w hi c h exi sted between the people of Ireland and England would exist between those of England and Scotland, and England, distracted by those divisions, instead of being first in the rank of nations, would be inferior to many now much beneath her in power, and influence, and dignity. And what was the result w hich these proceedings had brought about ? Why, that Ireland, instead of proving a part of the strength had proved the weakness of the empire. What would they think of a physician who having two patients suffering under precisely the same complaint, had for 1 a long time prescribed the same remedies for both, but having changed his course of treatment, and keying found that it was the very remedy which not only abated the evil, but which cured the disease, yet refrained from adopting the same remedies for the other patient? They would believe that either he was dishonest to his profession, or that he had taken leave of his senses. And why was it that the same principles which applied to physic should not apply to politics? With the impression that what was good for one portion of philosophy was good for another, he should give his support to the motion of his Hon. Friend. It was riot for him to say what the larger measure sh ou ld be, but it was because the plea was set up for vested rights, for which he entertained the utmost respect, that he should give his support to the motion of his Hon. Friend.—( Hear, hear.) Such was the plea of a Conservative Ministry ; but their proceedings on this qu stion would give them a clue to the policy of her Majesty's Govern ment, and would give them a handle of which they would rot be slow to avail themselves. He was not one of those depre cators, but he would tell the Right lion, Baronet that he was giving a lesson to Ireland which it was bad fur a ruler to give, but which a people were: never slow to learn —that the way to obtain concession within was to agitate for it without. What was it that had obtained the concession of Catholic eman- 1 cipation, but the agitation which had been occasioned by the French revolution ? And what was the conduct of the Govern- ment now ? They were allowing every measure which, while in Opposition, they had most strenuously opposed—. _e i been l that policy for which Fox , and Grattan, and Grenville , and Wilberforce, had battled , f or the granting of which, during the ' first two months , they p ossessed p e culiar advantages. — ( Great cheering.) What had been the course of the party now in power ? Why that they had. when in oppesition, opposed every act which, when in power, they w la y l , had given when th e y were i n a p os iti on advocates for. But what , on th e oth er hand, had been the conduct most had redeemstrenuoused i t hra t theythe of everytli e pce a d r party whichopp os theyopposed to h t to render that redemption useful, and it was from no party pur pose, but simply from conviction, that he gave his support to the present measure. Did Hon. Members suppose that if the monster meetings hail never taken place, or if th .re had been no disturbance in America, that the same measure fur concilia tion would ever have been introduced? For an answer to this inquiry, they need only refer to what had been the conduct of the Government now in power when they assailed the Go vernment of Lord Normanby ? Where would have been the present measure but for the opposition from Mr. O'Connell and the Pope ? He had blamed the conduct of the Irish Mem• bers in 1543. He had been led into the conviction, that higher duties were to be performed by Members of that House, than the agitation of the public mind, or the discussion of local questions ; and be thought that the Irish Members would have been better fulfilling their duty to their country by attending in their places in that House, than by directing the move ments of any party in Ireland, however great He had been led to praise the conduct of the Hon. Members for Dungarvon, for Rescommon, and for Waterford, for rendering as they had done the advantage of those counsels which all allowed to be great to the public service, which would otherwise, accord ing -to his former conception, have been dissipated in popular declamations; but he had learnt to believe that the best place in which an Irish Member could serve his country was not within the walls of the British House of Co.nmons, but amid the patriotic supporters of the Concilia tion Hall, Dublin. The Government had been insensible to the claims of Ireland till the disturbances in Canada had awakened them to a recollection of the value of Ireland to the British empire. Could they expect that any Irish Roman Ca tholic could entertain any very great displeasure at hearing the American frontier was disturbed, when he well knew that such a disturbance would lead to a restitution of his own rights ? He would ask, with their knowledge of the national character— with their acquaintance of the national susceptibility, whether they could po-sibly expect that any uneasiness should be awa kened by the disturbance of the Canadian empire ? The policy of the Government seemed to be to yield nothing to reason but everything to force, and the measure now before the House had been granted rather from a conviction of the necessity of the measure, than from any strict con formity with their predetermined opinions. Such had been the case when the Irish Municipal Bill had been passed—such was the case when the grant for rslaynooth was under conside ration, Would they now say that the position of the Esta- Iblished Church was no grievance ? They knew that it was felt as sileh by the great body of the Irish people. His (Mr. MaeaulAy a) object in giving his support to this motion was to render the union between the two countries one of pleasur able consent; and his opinion now, as it was whin he was a member of the Government, was iet the principles of justice should be respected, let whoever would prefer the claims of justice; and he would do the same thing now freely, fairly, and consistently, if the whole of the American frontier were raging with the flames of war.—( Hear, hear. ) If a new camp, under a new Bonaparte, were to be found at Boulogne, and England had to contend with the whole world in arms to preserve her place among the nations—he would say to the Government— what you g ran t, gr ant freely ; but , what you withhold, withhold firmly ; f or it they granted to concession what they withheld from r easo n, they we re only multiplying complaint, and justifying di scon t en t. Fur ten months he had had the whole machinery for carrying this motion into full effect. They expected that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would reply that they were unable to accomplish that which unthreatened they never at tempted, and that the Government now in . power wculd be ready to sink all considerations for present expediency ; and then, when convictions opened upon them, the Government, with the Ri g ht Hon. Baron et at its head, would suffer themselves to b e d rag ged through their difficulties by the same honest men wh ose policy they ha d once vire • lently opposed, and were no w rea dy to adopt. He blamed no man for a conscientious cha nge i n opinion or p olic y , when that change was induced by a diff er e n ce of circum stances or an in crease in knowledge. He k new no t if the Right Hon. Baronet would reply to the many t aun t s which he ha d beard, or that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would express his sense of the sufferings which he had to endure ; t hough he might be in clined to relieve the one or to commisera te the other, yet it was not his business to remov e .th e ne He would not al low him self t 3 speak in any terms of their public p roceedings or to ad vise them how the public pe ace was to be p reserved ; yet he would say that if the next mail were to bring a notification that Oregon was occupied—if there were a rebellion in Ire land tomorrow, and a fleet o f thirty Fre nch sail of the line threatening the American frontier—he wo uld grant no more to agitation than he would to justice, for he would grant all that demand. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that, if he had consulted only was necessary without force, and all that justice had a right to as be had in former House at all upon the present occas on , his own feelings and wishes, he shriek: not have addressed the debates addressed them at very considerable length upon the same subject, and he was conscio us that he now could offer little, if anything new• upon the questi • But the speech which the House had heard from th e Ri g ht Hon. Member who sitien in the Graham), holding as he did a highuP: s ha not think it Govern ment,would to trouble them very shortly. ii . b d • last spoke rendered it imperatively necessary for him ( Sir J. on a former occasion reference to that very addressed himself to the House with help feeling somewhat subject, and he confessed he coulde notthe two measures brought be necessary for him to advert to all the . topics em race in the forward by her Majesty's Government--measures intended as • dthat, under surprise H bl under the peculiar circumstances, theßightonoara e conciliatory — be surprised , cons considering r e e r p i nega repeated de that nature at he war ssomewhat Gentleman should have brought to their consideration so muchiof party fealing.—(Cheers.). The Right Hen. Gen tleman, in his address, concluded with a hope that justice would be at last meted out to Ireland, but the peculiar ex pression of that hope from a person of high authority like the Right Hon. Gentleman appeared to him (Sir J. Graham) likely to create an evil impression out of doors. In the mat ter of the Hon. Gentlemans sentiments regarding reproof, he (Sir J. Graham) g his heart agreed ; and he believed that no Government entrusted by her Majesty with the con duct of public affairs, would think or act otherwise. Nay, more, he believed butt a majority of the people—not of Majesty's Government Government land and Scotland, of Ireland also, were resolved to the last extremity to preserve the union of the two countries pure and inviolate. With that sentiment he need scarcely say he cor dially a measure, had introduced to the intention e, of conciliation, and of they had expressed their taham) a p ee ur d suing a conciliatory policy. H e (Sir Jame s Hiit lion. Gentlenesan with the opinion expressed by the this kind the rule of _ , that in concilia torysures of this dially agreed.—(Hear. hear.) But her measures Government ought to sesteces eut to refuso them to With res the demands of agitation.respect to this particular the Right lion. Gentleman had said that it was measure, fear of Government, and . extorted from the not from its jus tice.—(Hewn.) Hear.) How different was the _ al. _ b sentiment of the Gallant t ice.— Commodore the 51ember for I . yle one, that he would not them on that question if he thought it had been be, to grant them to a . sense of i i h have supported nghd Governmentae i s en twhiathd jest ) s e.overnment.— bat this me (Cheers.) He would say t t. 1 aa esure, so far from hay . been extorted by Renato! far was it from having ing to a recent mitunderstantling to which the Right reference bail referred, that it - ' le Right lion. Gentleman , had been deter bee Majesty s Government long before, and before extracted from the fears of her Ma* , ri b r e e e s n peet to this subject. mined on by announced by his h ad of the ad Right Hon. Friend at the e lion taVorminent.—( Cheers. ) led to the Right • Gentleman himself and He appealed Right lionou the House, if his. rable Friend had to t net at the close of the last sessi n of Parliament arinoonced the intentions of this There were that misunderst aid: —(Continued cheers.) persons not politically 1 Government —he did not h • connected with the „ , the mernbeis oitne Irish ier 1 b arp.iy, to eleon them—they were d b this measure annotince i becau se - b e e been . . . it would have seen the height of i . l' to have brou ht • t epo icy ,g forward a measu , 0 of have been neglecting a most • • this kind, it would sideration, if her Majesty's d Government had not, in such case, consulted the he s ofd the Iriih Cherch.— ft ,l c h eers. ) HO sai, then that ( H e4et w a r ? en. had been ,this twa in its present shape, cemmenicated before • sure, N ember t 1 the end of the month of ov The , o the authorities to whom ec e.—(Cheers ) measure was therefore pre ! he had referr tsthe slightest reference to that • • I pared without u misunierstandlng ' tp which the fig h t . eht on. Gentleman had referred.—(Con ,l tinged cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had further said . that this inessuro'had •Leen e:_itorted L - 1 : fne pfoceeclings' of Conciliation 14112-411 ear; liPar. ) Ile w, mild again repeat t wa il t h e e repeal agitatiun had Leen civet turned in Ireland, nothing whatever would have ',induced her Majesty's Minis- • ters to bring forward a measure of this kind. The monster meetings had been put down. Their lead ers had been submit ed to trial, and had been convicted.—( Hear, hear.) He admitted that in point of form, but not in point of merit, that conviction had been set aside.—( Cheers. and counter-cheets. ) Law, order, and com parative peacefulness now prevailed in Ireland, and though the Right Hoa. Gentleman had pttt a false construction on the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet in reference to the agita tion in IrelaA and the misundersiaading with the United States, he (Sir James Graham) would repeat that this mea sure was determined on, without the slightest referente to either of those events. —(Cheers. ) If the Right Hon. Gen tleman then was neither authorised nor justified in making hese observations, he (Sir James - Graham) appealed .0 the House whether measures of this kind, wi,ich were calculated to soften existing prejudices and extend more amicable feelings, should be blasted by such insinuations ? (Cheers. ) He for one would not envy the success which .might attend such efforts.—(Continued cheers.) He greatly regretted the course taken by the Hon. Member for Sheffield on this question. What said he of the question before the House? He conceded that it was a good measure, that it ought to pass, and yet he offered an obstruction 'to its progress. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, had said that this was not a mere question of 26,000/., but the real matter at issue wau, what Church should reign dominant in Ire . . land, whether it ought to continue the bad without endeavouring to make it better. The Right Hon. Gentleman, at the same time, had pointed out that there were certain limits beyond which her Majesty's Government should not go. He could speak for himself, that no change of opinion, that no argument in that House would induce him to admit the prin ciple that the Irish Church as an evil in itself, and ought to be abolished. On the contrary, he begged to state that all reflection convinced him, that - his most — anxious deliberations had confirmed him in the opinion that it was the duty of this country to maintain the Protestant Establishment in Irelani. He did not wish, in a matter of this kind, to speak reproachfully of Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House.—( He must say of the Honourable Member for Sheff►eld, that no one had argued the questi,.n with more philosophical discrimination, unless it were the Noble Lord the Member fur London, who entirely dissented from the views the lion. Member for Sheffield. ( [(ear, hear.) lie did nut know what the opinions of the Noble Lord might now be ; but, in 1838, when the Noble Lord brought forward a measure for a change in the property of the Established Church, ho dis tinctly repudiated the principle of this motioh.—( Hear, hear. ) lie ( Sir J. Graham) had heard nothing from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh to lead him to believe that the destruction of the Established Church in Ireland would be conducive to the prosperity of the country. or productive of more kindly feelings between the two great branches of the em pire.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh had said that in America there was no Established Church, but that there the clergy of each religion, and all the sustenances of religion, were better upheld than in countries in which there were established religions, and those well en dowed. But he would ask the House, were the conditions of the two countries to be compared ?—( Hear, hear.) lie felt, and he was sure the House would agree with him, that to carry out an analogy would be impossible.—( Hear, hear.) That the proposition which the Hon. Member sought to establish— ( A laugh)—was impracticable, could be proved by a reference to the fate of those Governments in whose time the lion. Mem ber had introduced it. Lord Grey's Government had felt it im possible to carry out the principle. Succeeding Governments gave way before the overwhelming difficulty,but notwithstanding all the taunts thrown in the teeth of that Government, a mea sure relating to education in Ireland was carried without the intervention of the principle which the Hen. Gentleman now, for the fifth time, called upon the House to avow.—(Conser• vative cheers.) There were others more competent than he (Sir J. Graham) to speak upon this subject, and to go back to the times of the Stuarts, and other times to which reference had been made. lie would only say, that the ministers of the Established Church had performed their duty.—(Cheers.) They had done so under more trying circumstances than any which could be contemplated by the opponents of this measure. —(Hear, hear.) He admitted that it was the chief object of an Established Church to minister to the religious wants of the %hole population. —(Cheers. ) But he did not think that the missionary character of the Established Church would be im paired by the measure of the Government ; and it was no part of their intention to transfer the revenues of that Church to the 'religion of the majority. The principles which he had hitherto avowed he still adhered to.—( Hear. ) He objected alike to the extreme measures of the bight Hon. Member for Edinburgh, and the analogous motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Coventry most conscientiously discarded anv intention of endowing the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. Lord Plunkett stated that he considered that the Protestant Church in Ireland was the strongest bond of union between the two countries. All he would say was this, that he at that time foresaw, whatever their intentions might have been, that ulti mately this would be the consequence which we have arrived at for the first time.—(Loud cheers.) He understood the Member for Nottingham, on the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, for assistance to the Homan Catholic Church out of the funds of the Protestant Church, to give a denial of any such intention on his part. Notwithstanding he always Foresaw that the inevitable effect of that motion would be the point to which they had now arrived. He never could agree to that proposition himself, and circumstances since had led him more and more tl consider that proposition a dan. gerous one, and he was now better assured of it. In the opinions he had already given expression to, he most sincerely and conscientiously adhered, and he was most anxious that the wants of the Roman Catholics should be supplied, and that through the measures they were now considering they should receive assistance in their education ; but he could nut see that it would not render it more feasible to the Protestants of this country, that that assistance should be rendered through the spoliation of the Protestant Church of Ireland. He would adhere to the opinion which.he had heretofore stated, and would decidedly oppose the motion of the lion. Member for Sheffield. Mr. ROEBUCK said, that when the Right Honourable Baronet opposite undertook to oppose the motion of the Honourable Member for Sheffield, he (Mr. Roebuck ) at least expected that he might divulge that some attempt should - be made to answer the arguments of the lion. Cantle man. It did not strike him that the lion. Gentleman had attempted to answer the proposition offered by him.—(Cheers.) The only reason which he could deduce for such a failure in this case was the want of argument to support a cause which . . the Hon, Gentleman found to crumble - beneath him. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh stated that the Irish Protestant Church was at that time a worthless church, because it was instituted for purposes which were at this time utterly without value. It was a church which in a large portion of Ireland did not exist. Fsr, let them under stand the meaning of the word church. They were con staidly confounding the word church with church establish • ments. They were confounding the payment of a clergy who were giving consolation to a congregation—they were con founding the congregation itself, who constituted that Church, , with those pastors who were appointed for the purpose of giving consolation. That was not applicable to Ireland ; for in a large portion of that country there was no Protestant congregation, and it now came to be considered, as the Right Hon. Gentle man had stated, that as this property had failed in its uses, how were they to give assistance but out of the property which remained in their hands ? The Government said it was a matter of high importance that this grant should be made, and the only question raised by the lion. Member fur sheffield was, where should the proceeds come from to supply this grant ? Was it to come from the pockets of the hard-working people of England, or from that portion of property which they had in their hands, of which the Protes tant use had entirely failed? They were not discussing—the Right Hon. Gentleman did not wish to introduce—any religious feeling on this occasion; but what did the Right Hon. Gentleman do? He turned round upon those who supported him, and said that they were now coming to touch the Protestant feeling of the people of England, and he himself blows the bellows to excite it.—( Cheers.) They had supported him throughout, to the great risk of themselves, slid this was a strange return for the support which they had given him.—( Cheers and laughter.) The Protestant Establishment was faithfully described by his Right Hon. Friend, and had it been attempted to be answered by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite ? Was it not, at this pre sent moment, the great ecclesiastical enormity of Europe ? ( Hear.) Was that description answered by the Right Hon Baronet ? What did he do when he found a murmur ? He told them to beware how they raised the Protestant hostility of England. How was it that his own allegiance roused that same spirit ? They were prepared to meet all that was wrong, all that was biggoted, all that was unjust in the Protestant feeling in England, but they were prepared to sup port the strong feeling of justice on the part of the English people, that that portion of justice which is to be done to Ireland should be done at the least expense and suffering of the great body of the community; and that was the grand distinguishing mark of the two classes on both sides of the House. It was a shifting, wavering, faltering policy, after the declarations made on the ether side of the house; and it was a sound feeling of kindness and consideraticn, based upon principles of freedom and liberality, which induced them to support this motion.—(Hear, and cheers.) Why did he make this observation, but that it was called for by the speech which the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government last made upon the question. He wanted to know what answer th? Right Hon. Gentleman had made to the speeches of the Hon. Member for Cork. The answer was admitted by the Hon. Member frit. Dungarvon ; but although that answer might have been pointedly made it was not conclusive. What were the circumstances? " Agi tate, agitate," said the Hon. Member for Cork, to the people of Ireland. " Don't go to England ; it is useless to do that ; but meet me at the monster meetings. Put the Government in danger. Frighten the Prime Minister. Let him see that if a shadow of a shade of war arise in any part of the world you will coerce him. Trust me, and when England or the Prime Minister is frightened, you may rely upon it Ireland will have justice done to her." Yes, that was the language of the Hon. Member for Cork, and what was the speech the Hon. Member for Dun garvon made in that House? Why, it was a reiteration of the declaration of the Hon. Member for Cork, and the course he was now pursuing had a tendency still further to excite arid irritate the Irish people. What was the course? Was it to show the Irish people that what was just in time of war was not just in time of peace, or was it to point out the mode of re medying the mischief which had been done by any previous mal administration ? No : it was to create discontent and make the position of the Prime Minister dangerous in the event of any exigency arising, and thus to make it dangerous for him to refuse justice to Ireland. Now, he asked the House if these were not the real causes which had produced the conciliating declarations of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite. Much in justice had been done by that Right Hon. Gentleman to the great body of the people of ibis country, as well as to a large majority of that House. They, on that side of the House, and he believed the country at large were supporting a measure of conciliation and conces sion, and not yielding to one of the violent demands which had been made by the Hon. Member for Cork, in Ireland, and reiterated in that House by the Hon. Member for Dungarvon. They thought indeed that they had been dealing with the great business of conciliation towards Ireland, until the Right Hon. Gentleman delivered himself of his speech the other evening. —( Hear, hear.) But how had they been deceived? How craftily had the Right Hon. Baronet endeavoured to cover his object with a flimsy veil w hien required but little penetration or examination to see through. The fact was, the Right lion. Gentleman had nearly got rid of the difficulties at home, and probably in Ireland, by one of his happy rnse , , By a sudden turn of fortune the Right Hon. Gentleman fancied he had the Howe of Commons with him, and this grant was intended as a sop for the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cork. That was a true statement of the case. If the Right Hon. Baronet had not discovered a small cloud of war in the west, he would not have been ilis tuibNl. And what was the true interpretation of those words ? Why. the Right Hon Baronet was afraid of a war with Ame rica,—(Cheers from the Opposition.) That was the long and short of it.—( Hear, and a laugh.) At the same time, the ' Right Hon. Gentleman foresaw something like a rebellion in Ireland, contemporaneously with the war in America. Thi s , then, was the sop to be given to Ireland. It was at least a soil of graceful concession.—( Cheers.) These were not his own words, b,ut the ideas, if not the words, of Government, and he dened any man in that House to get up awl make any other interpretation of the speeches which had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet. And what was the answer 4 - those statements and promises of the Right lion More. remarkable 11 hail for the Home Department ? lie a „ IdAi to the str.tement, and what ws's on the peeseitt&coort made an unjust appealto ° "ad r for Sheffield had BfiarlAne, th'e Frotes .l4nt P 719 of England. The Hon, Menges the propos that the May - tooth grant should come out of funds. that were actually unemployed. They were really funds of a sinecure character, for when the parties died who at present possessed them, Government would be in possossion of means to give a proper educatio❑ to the Irish people. Anil how was that proposition met ? Why they did not want it to be adopted. They would not emsent to disturb the Church Establishment in Ireland, because they said it would not be permitted by the people of England; and the Government, with a true Protestant feeling, would cot allow the House to touch it. He was prepared to say the proposition of the Hon. Member for Sheffield would not in the slightest degree injure the Protestant Church in Ireland; and in using the term Pro tes'ant Church he ti:ed it simply in the sense of a congregation, and that was the simple explanation given to it by the sup porters of the Right lion. Baronet. Now what was the argument used against the proposition of his lion. friend the Member fur Sheffield ? The Right Honourable Baronet adverted to a celebrated article of David flume. and appeared to think that it was favo ura bl e t o hi s own side. Exrerience, however, proved that an augmented clergyOf; particular church did not increase the number of the congrega tion ; for instance, thew had a large number of Protestant priests in Ireland, but the majority of the people belonged to a Catholic congregation. Jr was evident, therefore, that increasing the number of the clergy was not supporting the Protestant Church. Nine- tenths of the Protestant clergy in Ireland stood almost alone amidst a Catholic congregation.— (Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial side of the House.) Hon. Gentlemen on the other side said " No," but was there any man in that House who had had personal expe rience in the matter, who would stand up and deny what he had said was right ?—( Hear, hear.) Was there any man who could get up and say that in Ireland seven-eights of the whole congregation were not of the Catholic persuasion? Ile was convinced no one could deny it, far in parish after parish every congregation was Catholic. It would be much better for the Government to say whether de- creasing the number of the clergy would not have a better effect in improving the Protestant Church. They had an op portunity of doing so now, for his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield proposed that, as a minister died off, his place should nut be supplied. The present minister only received his revenue during life, and at his death there was no neces sity for appointing another. Now the means which would thus accrue to the Government could be easily applied to the carrying out what the Government seemed lo desire. the education of the Catholic people, and this wotfd only be. This, then, was the argument, that they could no longer niain tain in Ireland by force that which they had too long main tained by that means in that country. lie believed the word used was " Protestant domination," and that that was the thing which it was apprehended could no longer be upheld by force in Ireland. The Government, scring that such was the state of affairs, they yielded ; but, as upon every other occasion, they yielded when it it was too late.—( ticar, hear.) That ha.t been always their policy and their penalty. they tried to do good when it was too late to do it with any effect.—(l-lear, hear.) They had not the courage to do right—they were in dread to do it ; but it was a feeling of dread that made them do it in the end.—( Hear, hear.) That was not the way to do justice to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He had never been hostile to the present Government ; but he would say it was hopeless to expect they would do jussice if they waited to do it upon inciplcs of terror—( Hear, hcar)—and when they were terri fied a little more they would go on doing what they ought to have done long ago. He had heard so much about this ques tion of the Church property, that he would like to ask a ques• tion in regard to it, namely, Who made this property ? Was it not the Roman Catholics, for Roman Catholic pur . . poses?—(Cheers)—but property which had been directed by Protestant power to Protestant purposes. —( Cheers. ) But now that the Protestant interest had di..d out, it was only fair to apply it to the very useful purpose of teaching the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) He would wish to know why they should not be so applied? He had not heard any reason why they should not, as an earnest of their intention to do justice to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) And now what was the real diffe rence between the Right Hon. Baront's proposition and the appropriation clause? It was simply what was called the Pro testant principle. Hon. Members opposite said that this was a proposition which, if it originated with Protestant Ireland, might be consistent, but it should not have originated with Protestant England. But the attack having been commenced in England, the assailants hid themselves behind their excesses in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Now, either this was a question as to a great question, or it was not. It was one which asserted that England was about to make a proposition for the education of the people of Ireland, and the means wore to be had without injury to any one ; arid, therefore, he called upon there to agree to the grant, if they wished to pacify Ireland. Sir R. PEEL said he would be very unwilling that the House should separate until he had protested against the gross mis-eatements and misrepresentations he had head of what had fallen from him upon the discussion of this question the other night. Upon that occasion lie did abstain from all party recrimination. Ile said he brought forward this measure on the part of her Majesty's Government, conscious that it would be well received in Ireland. He stated the feelings of grati tude with which it had been hailed in that country.—( Hear. ) He did then, and would now deprecate with anxiety the chance of a failure of this measure.—( Hear, hear.) He knew well that the success of the measure (lid depend upon Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and that w.th them rested the question whether the measure should succeed or not.— ( Hear, hear.) He said then, and he would say now, that he meant to do ample justice, as far as it was in his power, to the motives of those lion. Members who had voted against the measure, as well as those who had voted for it. He stated further, upon that occasion, that he knew well that many of those who had given their support to the Government had done so at the risk of displeasing their constituents. lie also stated that many others who had voted in favour of the mea ' sure had done so at the risk of losing their seats for ever. fie did not arrogate to himself or to those who sat with him on that side of the douse, the origin of this measure. On the contrary, he stated that it would have been much better if it hail come from those who had been well known to be uniform friends of the Roman Catholics.—( Hear, hear. ) lie was perfectly willing to take upon himself all the consequences of the dis- . pleasure that he might have incurred, this he stated on Friday night, and he added upon that occasion ' Visit the Minister if you will, but let not sour disphAsure fall upon the measure itself."—( Hear, hear.) It would be base indeed, if they were to attempt to throw the onus of the support they had received upon the opposite side of the House, for the indig nation it had created should be visited on that side alone. Ile was surprised at the mode in which the lion. and Learned Gentleman commented upon this subj , ct. The measure re ' ceived his support on the second reading. He was perfectly aware .f the nature of the measure. lie ( Sir R. Peel) ex plained fully that it .vas his intention to provide the funds out of tie public revenue, and he had never given him reason to suppose that he would consent to the diminution of the furs's s of the Established Church. He had never sanct'ssued the opinion that they would, during any stage of the measure, con sent to the appropriation of the revenues of the Established Church —( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was perfectly aware of the principle of the proposition of her Majesty's Government. He ( Sir R. Peel) gave the Hon. and Learned Gentleman full credit for the motives by which he was actuated, for he was aware of the stroll.. feeling which prevailed in the city which the Hon. and' Learned Gentleman represented on this subject, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was ready, as others were ready, to incur the risk of supporting the second reading. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that he stated that the measure was brought forward in consequence of the agitation of Mr. O'Connell. He (Sir R. Peel) stated directly the reverse. lie stated that during the prevalence of that agitation they combated it by the law, that they succeeded in Ireland at least in their appeal to the law, that the consequence was a suspension of the agitation, at least. so far as the immense meetings tending to disturb the public peace were concerned. After this determination to vindicate the law, and after those meetings were suspended, they considered whether some other measures might not be adopted which would be likely to afford a more permanent remedy to Ireland than the application of physical force.—(Hear, hear.) They, therefore, proposed a measure making better provision for charitable endowments. That measure with the exception of sense opposition from a few Roman Catholics, received the general assent of the House. Were they then taunted with having yielded to intimidation— were they not then told that the coarse they were taking was a wise course? It was not said that there was anything undigni fied or dangerous in that course. They were supported by some ecclesiastical dignitaries of the Roman Catholic Church who were apposed to the repeal agitation. Mr. O'Connell never asked for the endowment of Maynooth—Conciliation Hall never asked for it. But a great number of the Roman Catholic clergy and laity, who, seeing the spirit in which the Govern ment were inclined to act, and that the Executive were inclined to act in a friendly spirit, asked for this measure ; and it was more in deference to their opinion, than to any threats or. inti midations that they brought it forward.—( Hear, hear.) Nor did they bring it forward in consequence of their relations with the United States ; for it might be recollected that he had given notice soon after the suspension of agitation, voluntarily and without necessity—without any person calling upon him to do so, that he was ready to run the risk of exciting Protestant feelings in this country, and dis tinctly declaring that during the present session he would bring forward the subject of academical education ; and that he would, at the same time, bring the subject of Maynooth un der the consideration of the House. Did lie not add, at the same time, that they would_act, not in an adverse but in a friendly spirit ? And did not any person who heard him know that it was his inter' ion to improve that institution ? He therefore brought forward the measure. Ile had abstained from noticing the attack of the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo site; and he seemed to be disappointed that he (Sir Robert Peel) had passed it over. tie would tell the Right Hon. Gentleman the reasons why he did so. He knew that the success of the measure depended upon the votes of Hon. Gentlemen in that House; and it was not far him to alienate that support by party attacks. He thought it much more consistent with his duty, to act in that way, being ready to take the consequences of the success or of the failure of this measure. Feeling deeply satisfied after proposing this measure, that the public interests required that it should be passed, was it not more becoming his position that he should concentrate every effort to the passing of the measure rather than provoke party attacks or promote party recriminations?—(Cheers.) Powerful as were the talents of the Right Hon. Gentleman, great as were his abilities, yet he could assure him it was not from any fear of a conflict with him that induced him to forbear.—(Cheers.) It was that sense of public duty with regard to the importance of tise measure, and the effects which its failure would produce in Ireland, that had led him, after maturely considering what course he should take, to do that which would best promote the success of the measure; but the Right Hon. Gentleman compelled him to notice his attack. The Right Hon. Gentle. man asked, was it not humiliating that he should promote this measure? He felt no humiliation—(Cheers) —he felt no humiliation in discharging a public duty—but he should feel , humiliated if, believing this measure to be of importance to the welfare of Ireland, he shrunk from proposing it, because they might charge him with inconsistency.—( Cheers. ) But if he believed it to be a measure calculated to do good in Ireland— calculated to engender kinder feelings between the two coun tries—so far from feeling any hurnilia'ion in proposing it, he owned to the Right lion. Gentleman that he felt perfectly satis fied with the motives and with the act. —(Cheers.) Th e humiliation would be if he shrunk from performing a public duty from any fear of the Right lion. Gentleman hunting out some passages of his, and charging hi m with incon . sistency. lie supported the grant to Maynooth when out of office. In 15-10 he voted with the Right Honourable Gent!eman, and spoke in favour of it w h en h e was silent.—( Hear, hear.) Il e objected t( ‘ ) the withdrawing of the vote. Where w as th en t h e incon,isteney mm in support it now ?—( Hear, hear.) T hey w i shed to imidrove the build ing, extend the accoo al.ion, eleva' e th e e ucat ion, give a decent allowance to the teachers of youth—whore, then, lie repeated, was the inconsistency i f now d supporting a measure fur the cowinuin to of whictihe'h uniformly voted? The Right Hon. Gentleman said ' th a at those who voted f'7, - , 9,0001. could not was absurd vote for the 26,0 Er;, besides that it in thos who and vote for a salary to professors to ho would would keep them in a starvihrT, v`',' only for ' a sum which Hon. Gentleman himself Government of w give increased ee , -cifo 1, t inconsistencyl beca.us?. 4 l44ead o ' fbe 4 in o s t loalleanreeding condition. It was the Right o said so, and yet he accused the in proposing a grant which would annual, the MaYnooth, merely ine.reiaed aidthe grant would be permane g nt. m ( Hear, hear.) Ile did not then ; reply to those o b servat i ons of the Right lion. Gentleman, but ' addressed himself to those of the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, who took a for different view, and who in a generous spirit came forward to support the Government in accordance with a virtual engagement that the Opposition side of the How IT (mitt support any measure brought forward for the s - -- - welfare of Ireland without reference to party feeling. He had t seers a man so discontented with the favourable receptio which the measure had met with in Ireland. The Right lion. Gentle.nan seemed to consider Irish agitation and disturbaneu as the field for his own peculiar exertions. The Right Hon. Baronet then quoted the opinian of Lord Monteagle, expressa•d last session, which was decidedly in favour of an increase of the Maynooth grant, and asked, if they had not brought for ward this, or similar grants, would not the Right Hun. Gentle man have taunted them with inconsistency and impolicy in not bringing forward some healing measure for Ireland? lie would have said this was the time, and that if they had done so the Opposition would have given the Government all the support in their power.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But the Right Honourable Gentleman, though he supported the Maynooth grant, spoke vehemently against those who proposed it, and extracted all that party virulence eisuld obtain from his support. He thought the conduct at the Right lion. Gentleman unworthy of the position he fa:tu t-deft in that House. He deeply regretted that he felt obliged to reply to the taunts of the Right lion. Gentleman—he had expected unanimity, and was sorry that anv division should hate taken place. He proposed the measure for the welfare of Ireland, hut did not think it right that the obligations ci the Irish Roman Catholics should be withdrawn lrona those who had long advocated their claims—their forme, friend—and transferredtothem.—(He.r, hear.) He only canted is that the Government press a belief on 'the House had done their duty, and bad been actuated by a sincere desire to benefit the Catholics of Ireland. They felt *hat this was a necessa-y measure. It was an attempt to conciliate the people of Ireland. It was not merely a series of measures of concession, but it was an act of spontaneous kindly motion on the part of the Government, and as such he hoped it would be received, and not cause, as it was said it would do, an accession to the ranks of repeal. He thought that this feeling had been evinced by the Charitable Bequests Act of last session. But it seemed that the fear of an American war was to have a great effect in the terms of this measure, as if that which had been already arranged, had been at all affected by the message of the President. Why this measure had been arranged so long ago as last November, and he could assure the Bouse that the discussions which had taken place in the American Legislature with respect to Oregon had nut added one shilling to tlw grant to 31a)nooth, an:l the speech of the President had had no more influence than the, diFeussions themselves. He had anticipated that this measure would have the effect of increasing the good-will be tween the several classes in Ireland, and he thought that the expressions of good will with which it had been hailed in the House would have the effect of allaying the discontent which then prevailed in Ireland, That the measure :gas not yielded to agitation was evident from the power which the Government had shown to contend with agitation. And what aces mid with respect to America? Was it not evident that the proceedings of America had not tht slightest iiditience on the decisions on this question, and to which the Hon. Member who intro duced this question had not made the slightest reference. What, did the Hon. Member intend to lay the great stress of his argument on taking a suns of such paltry amount as 311,000/. from the Consolidated Fund, fur effecting such a great purpose as the conciliation of Ireland ? He (Sir Robert Peel) believed, that the intentions of the Government woule.l be plainly understood, and he would not attempt to justify this grant by any reference to the compact with the Esta blished Church in Ireland. He would take a more enlarged view of Establishments in general ; nor would he on the nar row ground which had been proposed, attempt at all to prove anything in support of the Established Church. He might cite the opinions of Sir J. Newport, Lord Plunkett, and others. to show that the appropriation of such a sum would in no w av infringe upon the claims of the Established Church.—( Hear. ) The Hon. Member who had introduced this motion had ex . - pressed a fear that the whole of ,he principles en which the Government had acted would be misunderstood in Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) But he (Sir R. Peel) had reason tosaYlhat the present impression in Ireland was highly satis - aetury, 8.3 showing the impression that was prevailing throughout that country of the kindness and good will with which the present Government were disposed to act towards it.—( Hear, hear.) Ile must confess that one of the motives that had induced this grant was the hope that it would lead to a greater interchange of good will between the Catholic and Protestant portion of the population. —( Hear, hear.) He believed that it would not be looked upon by the Irish people as a measure of concession to their fears, but as au iedication of kindly feeling on the part of the Government and the people of this country.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that there had been as many petitions presented from the Protestants of Ireland in favour of the measure as against it,—( Cheers)--and he did think it most lion mrable to the feelings of the Irish Protestants that they had come forward not to oppose the measure, but to sup-. port it. They had called it a measure liberal and just towards their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects—(Cheers)—and he did believe that if the House approved this measure, and the spirit in which it was propued, it would have the effect of propitia ting the Protestants of Ireland.—( Great cheering.) The Pro test ants of Ireland did not certainly expect that they would take the revenues for the support of Maynooth from the Irish Church, not that they cared for the money—the sum of twenty-six thousand pounds was a minor considera tion—they rejoiced in the Government measure as a proof of kindly feelings towards their fellow countrymen, but it would certainly be somewhat dishonourable were they to exact the sum required for the support of this institution from the funds: of the Irish Church. He thought that the kindly feelings evinced by the Protestants would in this ease meet with a very ungenerous return. He utterly denied the justice of the mea sure proposed by the Hon. Member for Sheffield. If he had been diverted from the course he had intended to pursue in this debate, if he had said one word which was calculated to throw any impediment in the way of Hon. Members on the other side, who had been prepared to support this measure of the Government, he deeply regretted it. But he felt that after the language used by the Right lieu. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, it would be necessary for him to justify thus far the mea ore of the Government. He gave credit to the sincerity of the mo tives which induced Hon. Members on that side to vote on that measure. He acknowledged and he gave them credit for their uniform advocacy of the Catholic claims ; stmt he was most anxious that this measure should receive their. sanction. The motion of which his Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge had given notice seemed ;:.itended to solicit the votes of all who could by possibility ue opposed to the Government measure.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," and cheers.) And, looking at the ru"'l'ion which his Hon. Friend had put t•ti record, 'oe found that its oh ject was not to tus'O re an annual vote, but that the sum required f _"•or this grant should not be paid out of the Consolidated L .' oni.—(Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend might have `;',,jetted to the increase of the vote, but, instead of tha t , ;iis lion. Friend had given notice of a motion which I nuld compel Hon. Members—he should say which would al most compel Hon. Members—to vote with him.—(Cheers. ) The motion was to this effect, that the fund for Maynooth should not be taken out of the Consolidated Fund. It was not th it the vote should be an annual one. [The notice of the Honourable Member for the University of _Cambridge upon the paper was here handed the Right Honour able Baronet.] He found that the motion was thus : that the several sums proposed to be payable shall not be charged upon or payable by the Commissioners of her Majes ty's Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund. It was not, as he had already stated, that the vote should be an annual one; but that it should not be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. If he could succeed by a combination of parties of extremely opposite views in defeating this measure. Now, he hoped that those who would assist the Hon. Member in thus defeating it, would do so upon principle. Ile would have thought it perfectly con sistent, if his Hon. Friend had objected to any increase of the vote, if he had proposed a motion in opposition to that increase of the vote, and taken the sense of the House upon it.. But was it fair that he should place such a motion as this upon the paper, and he trusted that those Hon. Members who agreed with the principle of the Government measure, but who were opposed to the mode in which Govern meet proposed to raise this fund—he trusted that they would think it better, considering the state of public feeling in Ireland, to ensure the passing of the measure, rather than its defeat. He did not believe that any permanent pod to any party would arise from a combination of men of such opposite principles, and he hoped, therefore, that, even if the majlrity of that House did not entirely approve of this measure, yet, that, in consideration of the circum stances under which it was brought forward, they would prefer the passing of the measure to its failure,. and that they would support her Majesty's Government in this case, and afterwards if indeed they felt iuclituel to censure the condne: of the Ministry, then they might with some appearance of con sistency oppose them. The Government were perfectly pre pared to abide by the measure. He had thought it better to encounter the storm of public opinion, than shrink from the performance of a public duty. The Right Hon. Baronet sat down amidst great cheering, the expression of which it was very difficult to define, but amidst the storm of cheers and counter cheers, it seemed that the Liberal party predominated. Lord J. RUSSELL (who was for a considerable time inter rupted by the efforts of Mr. Colquhoun to be heard, amidst loud cries of " Order") said that he did not wish for one moment to detain the House for this night or to lead to an adjournment.—( Hear.) But he had already stated that he would support the motion of the [lon. Member for Sheffield ; and he thought it right, before the discussion of this night closed, to state his reasons.—(Cheers. ) And he thought, at the same time, that it was his duty to say that, when the motion of the Honourable and Learned Member for Cambridge was bro.'ght forward,he would give it his de cided negative.—(Cheers.) He would go further, and say. that if the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Shit field was not acceded to, he would glee the utmost support: ! in his power to any motion which would have the effect tot. carrying out the same principle.—( Cheers.) He had no wish to obstruct her Majesty's Ministers in the measure which they had proposed • but he believed, if they had not been supported by those who agreed with him, they would not have held the position which they no* held.— ( Cheers.) He agreed with his Right Hon. kriend, the Se cretary of State, that when they had been so long in the wrong, they might ultimately be right. He did not agree with those who said that if this grant were acceded, the Roman Catholics should have no further claim. He did not agree with those who said that the claims of the Roman Catholics of Ireland could terminate in any grant.—(Cheers.) He did not believe that grants were their only object ; he could not be persuaded that grants would be their only satisfaction. He begged to express his dissatisfac tion with the statement. (The Noble Lord was here in h tm tenor to say o the n t i I terrupted . by loud cries of " Ord er , or d er, " " Bar, bar.") people Noble they Lord's When wecould again observations, we e understood offered an adequate establi s h ment f or the of, u I eland of the funds already exi s ti ng no satisfaction to lreland eft,: n to those opposed tes the present Establishment could be expected.—( Hear, hear. ) He did not attach any great importance and he did not wish now to go into any argument upon the adequacy c. f that grant—(Hear, hear)—nor was it from any disagreement with the sentiments of his Right lion. Friend opposite that he thought it his duty to contrast. former statements with present acts. lie thought it to be hies duty to contrast the conduct of the present Government frost the year 1836 to the year 1843 with that which they were al present pursuing, and he came to the conclusion that either there was the greatest blindness or want of foresight on their part from IS3ti t o 1843 , an d i n that case he could have no opinion of their candour, and must suppose them to be a Ministry more i g want'.nn capacity, than tiny Ministry that bads ruled this country fur some time; or, if they were wise, be mu t deny that they had acted with any sincerity.—(Cheers. 0 fie would not further enter into their present and past conducts hut he would state that h..: would vote in favour of the motion of his lien. Friend the Member for Sheffield, and after that he would give his most steady and cordial support to the Bill._( Cheers. ) Mr. COLQUHOUN then moved the adjournment of the , debate. Mr. MITCHELL said that they had already had six nights' det - ,:te on this subject, and the result of this adjournment woald be that, at the end of the session, most important business would be left untouched. He wished to take the sense 01 the How upon a division. Colonel WOOD coneutred with the Honourable Cewtko man who had just sat down. Mr. WAR said that, in consequence of the general suppo sition that the debate on this motion would occupy stone nights, every standing order for to-morrow had been further postponed. . The debate was then adjourned, and after the other orders. of the day were gone through, the House adjourned at One , o'clock. GRAY'S INN, ArarL Manigy, F3+, was thii day called to the degree of Barrister-at-Law, by the Honourable Society of Gray's Inn.