The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 8, 1844, ' 3l e- ein• ti ne a _they ought to take the present opportunit of put- establish a system of liberal policy. They had heard it said h e e s nd to the sugar monopoly. —( Hear, hear.) When by a certain party, that they were determined not to allow any said ugar monopoly, he was not usine it in a vain sense, further inroad to be made in th good old system of protection, Zes Ina strict one This swear monopoly was a real one—it and monopoly, which had solosg existed. Those denunciations s a Principle Which closed the ports of this country against applied to other subjects as well as • the corn-laws. These th _ . n com ing in of any sugar at all. He believed were many persons who knew that the corn-laws 9 Member in that House, who was an advocate were not very defensible in argument.—who were not Te e 1 1 1 1)t eetion, would defend such an act of injustice. sorry to see other protections upheld still more unreason . wh , to Government thought that after the great experiment able than that with respect to corn. The sugar monopoly e rt : , h n d been so lately tried in the manumission of the ne- was considered the bulwark of the corn-laws. He should 00 1 0 _,' , the West Indies,breathing time should be given to the ' listen with the greatest possible anxiety to that which should Hies to recover from the shock ; but the late Government i fall from her Majesty's Ministers on the present occasion. If er state of t h e pro l onge d ex i stence of t h e present t h ey we r e p l ease d to g i ve a sa ti s f ac t ory assurance to t h e of on f things. He would read for the House the declaration House that they intended to do every thing i 3 their power to 1 1 1 4 1 114 I . the leading members of that Government.—he allay the apprehensions which existed so widely amongst the the opinions of his late lamented friend Lord Syden- manufacturing classes of the country, he could assure them That Noble Lord said that it was a matter of great that nothing would be farther from his wish than to attempt he r_rt e ance that a proper state of relations should be established anything w hich might throw the smallest opposition in the t i o :eplhis country and Brazil, and he trusted that the atten- way of a consummation so anxiously desired. But if they did T h " . °_ l l. Parliament would be called to it in a very short time. not receive from the Government such a satisfactory and ex tee.' 0 1 , esetit treaty (the treaty then existing) was only of a plicit assurance, and should express their determination still eowlnreary character. The exports of that colony were chiefly to postpone this subject—a subject which could not longer be t h e u: e d to coffee and sugar and it was most desirable that postponed without the greatest injury to the country—then he try. ?Ports should find an advanieeeous market in thi , cons- called on the House to come to the rescue, and by carrying ° F the be subject would be speedily forced upon the attention the resolution which lie had proposed, convey to the Cwen, Gov_ Government. These were the opinions of the l a te merit and to t he country their confident belief that the time was ,1 0.. .7,ti . tnent, and they were must anxious that the sugar duties now come when the grc it commercial interests of the country g ee ,"_T e be put upon a proper footing. He asked theflote eto could no longer be trifled with—that thwe commercial inte willanru that they would not allow the Brazilian treaty to expire rests should be placed on a satisfectory .footing by renewing on 'i nt tat least taking some step to bring their produce into this commercial relations, if we could, with the Brazil; ; but, • " more advantageous terms than they had formerly done. above all, by altering our custom duties on the great articles lb. s regard to the other branches of this imnortant subject, of Brazilian produce. especially the great article of sugar, in °gar duties, he should advert to them very briefly a nd such e manner, as to prove to the Brazils our desire to ex joY:enerally. If the Government adopted the pernicious tend the comme, ci relations which now existed between the epee, Of continuing those duties, they should have .another two countries, and which were so materially beneficial to w - -..tintty of discussing them. Belt still he felt their impor- both.— ( Cheers.) House e se to be so great, that he must call the attention of the Mr. EWART seconded the motion. He would ask the his ° .. to the state of the trade at the present moment. When Right Hon. Baronet. what had been tee suecese which had et hic:ten. Friend the Member for Portsmouth moved his r e .o. tended t h e negotialiceis for potting down slavery in the 13i•az , lse tli e nin 18 41, it was resisted by the gentlemen opposite on He thought the House and the country hid a right to &mane s(;rounds, first, that it would encourage slavery and th e an answer to tint question. '2 ,000,0001. had been paid to ate trade; and, next, that an adequate supply of sugar might abolish slavery in our We,t Indian colonies. And what had le e n e eted from their own colonies. The amendment to his been the result? Were the West In lian colonies contented ? too t riend's mo ti on was p l ace d i n ver y goo d h an d s —it was No, they were not? How could they remain contented while pose° by the Noble Lord ( Sandon) the Member for Liver- such a state of uncertainty and excitement eisted? The rich b ot h That Nobl e L or d no t on ly ma d e hi s s t a t emen t i n rep ly, did not feel the effects of the duty on suga x r ; it was the poor th e e e Came down to the House provided with an estimate of man that suffered by it. The poor man, owing to the enor th_ quantity of sugar that might be expected from mous duty upon sugar, was compelled to consume an adulter 4ircolonies: Th e est i mate, com i ng from suc h a a t e d ar ti c l e . He b e lieved that the Right Hon. Baronet at the tet ‘ :, excited great attention at the time.—( Hear.) head of the Government was restrained from acting on his su p e l 'Phle Lord said he expected that the great sources of own principles by the powerful combination behind him. He l od e Y la future years would be the Mauritius and the East called upon the Right Hon. Baronet to come forward and tj ul ' e s. He estimated that they would obtain from the Mauri- state what were the intentions of the Government with respect flee fl i , l , : n )(1,00 0 cwt. Now, in the year 1842, they received to this question. He had great pleasure in seconding the 477' nee - "" cwt. • in the year 1843, the supply fell to motion. of his Right Hon. Friend. (lir" cwt., ' little more thin half the amount estimated.— Mr. GLADSTONE said he trusted that nothing would fall • b ed ar, hear.) The deficiency, with respect to the ft ast Indies from him in the course- of the remarks he was about to make 'rb o nn t been quite so great ; but still it was very considerable. in reply to his Hon. Friend who had preceded him, and the ~„,2Nle Lord . estimated the supply at 1,400,000 cwt.. In Right Hon.. Gentleman who had . proposed the motion to the c e d e they received 940,000 cwt. Last year, they received House, which could justly give rise to the inference that the 1174,.,100,000 cwt. With regard' to the supply from the Government were in any manner indifferent to the importance he ee Indies, through the Noble Lord had made an error of the trade which subsisted between this country and the ern oto_also, it was an error of a different kind. He pire of the Brazils. Nor did he desire the inference to be L s rsed them only 2,300,000 cwt., whereas they drawn from anything he had to say that the Government 1,4 received, i n each year, about 2 , 500 ,000 cwt. were satisfied with the present st ate of our customs laws bee u re w as deficiency in the supply last year under what bid with respect to the importation of sugar , if those laws were to h er Promised b y th e s t a t emen t o f th e N o bl e L or d, th e M em - be viewed simply on commercial or general grounds. And he evittor Liverpool (Lord Sandon), of no less than 417,000 trusted further that nothing which might fall from him would • 1 1 47 — ( Che ers .) Th e H ouse wou ld r eco llect that the population have the effect of conveying to Hon. Gentlemen on the other % su n/c reased during these years. Was it possible after this side of the House, or the public out of doors, the slightest in 'soy /that the people of this country were not suffering from a timation of the course which her Majesty's Ministers might th.speted supply of sugar, and that the expectations held eat to think proper to pursue during the existing session with respect by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they induced the to other import duties. He was called upon to state this be -oue , not to accede to the Whig proposition of 1841, preyed cause the Right Hon. Gentleman who brought forward the i rj r rly fallacious ? He might be told that the prices of sugar motion, and his Hon. Friend who had seconded it, had both that t n° t excessive during that time, but it must be recollected intimated that the main object of promoting this discussion s teed that Was merely relative.—( Hear, hear.) He was sure he was to draw some intimation from her Majesty's Government, Nein not say that, in referring to the statement of his as to their intention with respect to the duties on sugar and had Friend, that he wished to hint that his Noble Friend coffee. He was sure that the good sense of Hon. Gentlemen Vas any intention of deluding the House on this subject. He would convince them that no person in office could have stat e Perfectly sure that his Noble eriend conceived that his learned so much as the A. B. C. of his profession if he were • s uited rtterit was accurate, and he had no doubt that he had con- to allow himself, by a discussion promoted at the instanco of . le ver persons of the highest authority on the subject in an individual Member in the month of March, to declare at a Lee P°° l . He had no doubt, also, that those gentlemen had period 30 early, the financial intentions of the Government, h m e red that the statement was accurate. . Their expectations and their intentions with respect to their commercial policy. disappointed. Then they had no inducement He thought he was justified in soliciting the House to nega legie est money in the cultivation of sugar in the West tive this motion. He objected to it because it laid down the th e ;$ and the Mauritius, for whenever the question of' principle that they ought to adopt such measures as would titt l - s li a,r duties came before the House the Right Hon. Gen- give extension to our commercial relations with Brazil, abso to en tne First Lord of the Treasury held out no language lutely and unconditionally, and irrespective of any effect upon W° encourage them in its cultivation ; although he said he other questions, yet more important. This question too, was l e o ; u not alter the sugar duties this Sear , he left the impres- not merely a commercial one, but it also affected the happi shoe:rhat he would-be likely to do so next year, or at s ome ver y nose of a great portion of our fellow-beings. He thought it e` Period.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Parties could not had already been shown that her Majesty's Government were a t Pleted to invest money in the cultivation of sugar i n th e not indifferent to the interests of the trade by this country e lie:• s 'ndies under these circumstances. He (M r . Labou- with the Brazils. In the year 1842, an alteration was made in j eet ei had been talking to a West India merchant on the sub- the customs laws, and a change was then proposed in the law te h ' e who told hi m th a t h e had give" directions to his agent with res p ect to the im p ortation of coffee from Brazil, which the c autions to what amount he carried on hi s o p era tion s in had a tendency to favour a direct introduction of coffee from the cu ltivation of sugar. He believed the Government, and the Brazils into this country. It was true that'the change ew e "- Gentlemen opposite who supported the Government, was not a great change, and it was true that at • see." 4 act better in plainly speaking their sentiments on the the time they announced that a further change th e lee t---(Chee r s.) If they m -ant to uphold the sugar duties, might be necessary at some future time. The Let),eught to have stated that it was their intention to do so. change, however. so far as it weet, did ten Ito facilitate the h, she Right Hon. Gentleman give a stout sugar pledge, as introduction of Brazilian coffee into this country. It was found 1 44ve a stout corn pledge, which would give confidence to to be a change sufficient to form the foundation of -a taunt on je;ienlator3 in the Mauritius and West Indies. After the ex- the Government of inconsistencies with respect to articles of he?ee which the Government now had, and after the hopes slave-grown producethought, therefore, that he might l d, they held out to the Hou.e and to the country, at least use it as an argument. to show that the Government iu tbm not understand how they could reconcile it, and go on were net indifferent to the Brazilian trade. There were other ithi4 s ame miserable course which they had hitherto pu sued. articles—of a secondary description, it was true:—but there the e W as so injurio us both to the West I n di a n planters and were other articles, such as hisses, rosewood, cocoa, and other ithi e j%sorners in this country. There was another subject to produce, which, though secondary, were net unimpoi taut arti stet, e would call the attention of the House. He would eles, and they were allowed to be imported at a very low per het, wiw the consumption had diminished in this country tentage in 1842. Then, with regard to cotton-wool, it was 11 0 , 4 : e ° the years 1841 and 1843. He w o uld now state t o the perfectly notorious thet the duty at present was 'a moderate ste t what that consumption was. In 1841 this country con- duty, if conside r ed with reference to the country from which it y ear f° 4,100,000 cwt , I n th e year 1843, w hi c h was th e l ast wa s expor t e d. O ur manu f acturers , doubtless, had their corn with, r which they had any return, the consumption was, not- plaints against it. No doubt they would claim to be relieved lshj ei t t a nding the increase of population, only 4,1)82,000 cwt., from the duty, in order to maintain their competition with their ltat st h i w as an actual reduction in the quantity of sugar. Did rivals abroad.—( Hear, hear.) He did not mean to say any loe' show that there was a stinted supply of sugar for the thing against their claims so far as Brasil was correct-tied, but u . Ver t t n'Ption of the country ? He would ask the House to ad- the cotton from Brazil was placed on the same footing as the to gs u ° what was the fact with regard to two other articles of cotton of America, and was treated avowedly as a simple ques alle4M Ption durine the same years, 1841 and 1e43. tion of revenue, and a simple matter of revenue it would con ;epee to the arti c l es o f t ea ari d co ff ee . Th e quan tity ' o f t ea tinue to be. As he had stated before, in the year 12 a readi isigned to the country in 1841 was 36,600,000 lbs. ; in 1843 ness was expressed to introduce at a future period a considerable ju jZt OO O lbs. The amount of coffee supplied to the country change in favour of the introduction of Brazilian coffee. Vei ee 7 , ' ) l was 28,400,000 lbs., and in 1843 30,000,000 lbs. He, It was material to observe, that with regard to four-fifths of the eote u _ re, . would say that while there was no increase in the whole exportable produce of Brazil her Majesty's Government le, anscmiPtion of sugar —nay, a small failure—the consumption of had already conferred many great advantages on the exporters teu enffee had increased in the ratio stated. The only pros- there, and they were willing to give still greater advantages. tZ: branch of the sugar trade was that which consisted in The great difficulties of the question were connected with the ra e n g slave-grown sugar into this country, for the purpose trade in sugar, which formed only one-fifth of the whole ex -4,t W 4 . ' 1 4 it, then of exporting it.—( Laughter and cheers.) ports of Brazil. The Right Hon. Gentleman confessed that_ tele,. e ven brought from their own West Indian Colonies.— his statistics regarding the Brazilian products were not very e _tasit e i t ' s .) This branch of trade had increased to an enormous minute or satisfactory, and they could not well be otherwise, as roo,ode within these two years. In 1842 they imported Brazilian statistics were exceedingly defective ; . but he (Mr. 'ts " - ' - 'etets. of slave-grown sugar, for the purpose of refining Gladstone) had collected a few statistical details, he' would 11 4 : 111 843 they imported 939,0cwt5., nearly-- a million of mention to the House, from the Report of the French Consuls, Al f s lave-grown sugar, for the pnrpose of refining. which seemed to be very carefully drawn up—it appeared from ( eLADSTONE—Where is that return to befnund ? these documents, that upon an average of five years, from 1837 1 4teji, I LABOUCHERE—In the trade and navigation returns, to 1841, both years inclusive, the total exports of Brazil that th l id on the table of that House. He did not mean to say amounted to 5,500,000/. sterling ; of that sum 2,000,000/. A re-exported all the sugar, but they imported it, and were from cotton, 1,540,000/. from coffee, and 1,100,000/. in alt at importation which gave all the encouragement to the sugar, the remaining 1,500,0001. was derived from other articles, wie e _ of slave-grown sugar.—(Hear, hear.) Thus, in so that the article about which so much disputation and dif nlad "Nle year, the amount of rough sugar in ference had arisen formed only one-fifth of the exports of shoo:creased from 600,000 to more than 900,000 lbs. Brazil.—( Hear, hear.) He did not mean to say that if the - 'tilije et came to what be apprehended would be the only real duty was lessened on Brazilian sugar it would not form a b 0 ,. 0 difference between both sides of the House. He did larger item in the exports—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposi etetiantileve that Gentlemen opposite would deny the immense tion)—but neither would it be attended with the wonderful r ye tou a n g,es of admitting foreign sugar into the consumption of advantages to consumers in this country which lion. Gentlemen ire(' e ro lrY: 1 hey would not deny the great benefit to be de- opposite seemed to anticipate. The arguments used by the i. efe t i it 41 it by the shipping and trading interests. He be- present Government in their negotiations with Brazil were pl ot „would, more than any other question, except the re- those used by the former Government. Lord Mountea,gle, a peo `i!e corn -laws, add to the comforts of the great mass of very high authority, in 1839 used very strong expressions with .Tet t h i re---( Hear, hear.) But the great objection would be, respect to a Brazilian treaty. When the seconder of the pre "aver Ought not to do anything which would encourage sent motion (Mr. Ewart) introduced his motion for the redue h/thieltlen. the Brazils and other slave-growing countries. He tion of the duty on Brazilian sugar, Lord Mounteagle said that th e "Posed to treat with disregard the feelings entertained one reason why the Government should not accede to the mo tlleople of thi s country on the subject of slavery, but tion was a preference for the produce of their own colonies te s i se u e e More one looked into the case, the more one was and another, that it would encourage slavery and the slave• Caeh ao " that any person could be found taking his stand on trade. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that no reasonable _weu ees °l '.lection as that.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. man could ground his opposition to the present motion 7 .. .er t izati told them that he was unwilling to renew the corp.. on anti-slavery principles. Now he (Mr. Gladstone) 7os eh tr eaty with the Brazils, unless they could be induced declared that he never saw a chain of reasoning note.yeit:e.r.tain changes with regard to the internal state of more clear or consequential than that the encouragement of • , the Brazil s . H e apprehended that after the treaties slavery had the natural consequence of encouragement to t rii,; W _ere letely made for the- suppression of the slave-trade; slave-grown sugar.-_( Hear, 'hear.) . - It was well-known that "otigel :_lore remained to be done in that way. He, therefore, in - order to cultivate sugar in Brazil large importations of slaves e _ f iver ee ," Bight 'Hon. Gentleman must have meant that the were annually made - from unhappy Africa, and of course the iZt t o ree nt would recommend to Parliament arid the country increased demand for the sugar would create the nec.essity f or d ete u s ew their commercial relations with the Brazils unless the slaves. The Right lion. Gentleman said by taking any . of te fiald C i n , British goods was reduced, so that both countries the products of Brazil we were a measure . encouraging to te i: Placed on the same footing. He asked the House slavery. Why, no doubt, by so doing we were importing the e see, k ee n er, in this, perhaps the last • opportunity they would produce of slavery, but we were not at the same time promoting Z ei7 in i re this great blow was struck at the cummerce and the slave trade. The Right Hon. Gentleman asked why did spas wi n o f the country, whether they could—lie could not we not con-istently act upon our theory, and refuse to receive tie ken " and prit, nt men, but a , consistent and conscien- the cotton of America grown by slave hands? The answer was h i e eri s h ee _keep the groun d they now occupied.—(Cheers.) there was no question of difference between us and America s. e s !.l l to ne ". to iee the people of England in a position to hold a regarding slavery. The traffic there was between State and io`oee, berths - iewards foreign nations ; but he was afraid foreign State, and between man and man, and did not at all resemble I L: Ito . turn round and say to them "it is impossible for African slave trade. He did not stand there upon theory, but k itty sincere in your professions—this argument about to argue against a practical evil of great extent—an evil most eh , e t t eatit a . mere pretext—(-Im, hear)—and when you have injurious to humanity, and which this country had made ej e t 'e u rs,) lee to gain, you have no ssruples.—( Hear, hear, and such sacrifices to remedy. It was said that we had Nuns e r 4. is easy and convenient enough to make us the not abolished slavery in Brazil. We had not done so it j a t e a oft on Yo se ur scruples when it suits your own inter e sts, a m t w as tru e , but e had done very much to diminish it. In 1838, 1 4 ,'est question of huma n ity, when it is a tenestion of the number of slaves carried into Rio alone was 30.000; th e w'? V o _Protection."—( Cheers. ) How del the question in 1841 met 1842, it was only between 8,000 and 9,000. 14 ent ert ..7 sugar the only article with regard to which ( Hear, hear.) The late Governor of Cuba ought to he re , of s , the.," not those scruples ?—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") membered herewth gratitude by every philanthropist for the sin tikeiirs r a b or iTport coffee to any extent through the produce cere desire nstantly evinced to repress the slave trade ;it Pred 4 eilitj e • Nay more; in the alteration they made in the was to be feared that his successor, the present Governor, con ker uce v , were labours;en for the introduction of coffee, the sulted more the feelings of the slave dealers, and less the inter ' %a th e s l at and with retard to the bringing slaves eats of humanity Through the meats of the former Go , eth er Atlantic into the Brazils, it made little difference vernor, the slave trade between Africa aid Cuba was almost ts t e, the y e . a od ed i tae „ tivated coffee or sugar. The question then annihilated, and in a few years had his humane policy been pur 4;,,einent t .pon the slaves, se e _ eru e i e into this—that the cultivation of sugar was hard sued, there was good reason for hoping that it would have been and they ought not to give encou- extinguished altogether. As a proof of that, slavery was on en tun w u t its introduction into this country. That was the the decrease in Brazil ; a good deal of the land formerly en- Po se t° M. se 'teh . Sir. Ellis held to the Brazilian Government, gaged in the cultivation of sugar, was now engaged in the cul . 114 for,,,lbetro, when he came to this country. How was it tivation of cotton, in which the . labour of the slave was not sot 4 gave Gentlemen opposite to bold such language, when necessary, for women and children were almost as useful as th e _I f_a_cilitiee, by their tariff, to the introduction of men in raising it ; whereas the more laborious cultivation of the Now mining was an operation far more cruel to cane required the importation of adult slaves who would be et a 7 0 eld as " snore disgusting, than the cultivation of sugar. worked for a few years, and then drop into an early grave, '1•1 1 why i u .".3' nothing about gold, tithewhich he knew, would find This was the opinion of the Committee westerns.aoined in 1842 to e co.eato sPnitte l impedime - tits. B re was copper ore. examine into the state of affairs on the . oast . of Africa. h_ coffe e ns p td . ore was into exactly thisthe same as that Unfortunately, the tone of . public feeling Brazil was not o bend imported le e ire `°, L e en t and then re-exported. Copper ore which when the subordinate officers might evince any humane desire le ' ki tes, d ot 'timed in this country was admitted at a in this respect, they were dismissed, or forbidden to discoun oesCo!,beeoreYtthaentd . what was the effect? Here it was. tenance that which their superiors openly supported. The , Port ed f • tariff was introduced, thegnantity of copper stipulations which existed between this country and Brazil te s t i see% o or the consumption of the country amounted to from the suppression of the slave-trade were amply sufficient ; deri e n 1 843 t . w a t ;in 1 842, after the tariff, it rose to 300.0141bs , but the guarantees for the fulfilment of those stipulations were, se,( fr o ,' the anted to 1,085,0001b5. '1 he amount oirevenne he regretted to say, utterly worthless, nor could they have any Nr s eer s aa7_dnuty—they were not ashamed to take money effectual guarantee until there was a total change of public the t 01 000 4 i sghtee)—was in 1841, only 561. ; in 1842, it feeling in that country. If it were possible to place British ea t he e It ; 1 843 it was 64,000/. He did not mean to say cruisers along the whole coast of Africa, which would be con e, h._llnt 1-1 0 , Gentleman• stimulated the trade to this stantly on the watch, to prevent the present nefarious traffic, te t e at teed. nd. w h e same time they were smelting 'copper that, he admitted, would be a very competent guarantee against t in at 'h e 'Ram the eat meant to show was, that they had de- its prosecution; but even if we did this, it would be attended tilos sugar, of copper from that course they adopted with with immense expense, and be exceedingly disadvantageous to , 'Op" te ilard pose to the this subject must not be considered our commerce. Cotton could be produced by free labour quite as lotto ear te.ifiat thcn WO e )r- Ifs alone. There was good reason to ! cheaply as by slave-labour, for the reason previously stated, Spanishold West India Islands of Cuba and namely, that a whole family, young and old, could be effectively I,et 4, l uc re i n tlees the example of the Brazils.—( Hear, engaged in its cultivation, and it did not require extraordinary i,%Porear I° e the u° House, his duty in bringing this sub- I toil. This was proved by the fact that St. Domingo with its la nce to b e s i t te e. He thought. it was one ot too much tree-labour could produce as cheap cotton as Brazil with its Nei n et . woaconnlntnnuniternedncff till the end of the session.—( Hear, slave-labour. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to think the euZtler ne ' o th e who the greatest importance to the present Government had not acted consistently with . the grin tutu „ orta te liletllntiati , ienetpeeeialiv; of the country, end it behoved Hon. ciples they professed in the course they took regarding the in tn e ef the () adopt the ' o resented manufacturing and troduction of copper-ore. He said that the Government had join with him in urging the Go- so reduced the duties on the importation of copper-ore that erh(sitere ale ouneey dictate, course which the safety and wel- 1 whereas formerly scarcely any copper-ore was introduced, lat iet' ee" lies bu t eh —(Cheers.) convictions he aealed riot terly there were very large quantities. hey would find that , h e ere st sent e d oto the conscientious of those from countries where the copper-ore was produced by :dare qtle"Ykshall °lV:result/Ira' constituencies, who had as much labour, there bad been a great increase in the quantity, * OII Z i nter :ar i l theta s :n the subject.—( Hear, hear.) He and that the alteration in the 'law of 1842 would not affect it. at the agricultural and manufac- The objsct was to prevent the smelting of copper-ore out of tnl ts fll 4 t time tae o_rrYiNvtaned t . ogether ; and he trusted they this country, and nothing could be more distinct than . seeth e trad e 'e Gov had 0 ! and manufactures ent in inflicting this deadly blow this, as Great Britain was decidedly an exporting int er ften confesse that h e h of the country.---( Hear.) country in this article. The next point contended ageest easeld the ad some fears on the subject. They for was that sugar grown in countries which cultivated it by th e thehe .Ltight Hon. Baronet oppo s it e s ay, tr What slave labour, should be allowed to be imported at the same rate Right er e gen have su . era] that oforting the West Indian Colonists of duty as from other countries; but this he thought would be 1 ° 1 110 n a : raid tha;-Lteh the country ?" He (Mr. Labou- most 'unjust, and, in saying so, he did not speak so much in te en th erai ! ty re . was amongst the supporters of the behalf of the Mauritius as for those other places where there 1114 w e lle] 7 1 ' erei ei great jealcusy with respect had been a decrease of labour, in consequence of the late be euttueias. Polley. They had heard lately . nevolent law in •favour of the slaves by Great Britain. He ' l ° l 4 with respect to any attempt to thought that the proposed treaty would not be attended with - those feelings of reciprocity which seemed to be anticipated. ; It had been said that it would tend to increase the trade and commerce of the country. Such high and heavy duties had been placed upon many articles of our manufactures by the Brazilian authorities as acted completely as protective duties. As much as 60 per cent. had been announced on some articles, and this would be most surely a light protective duty on those good', but the Brazilian Government had taken care not to pledge them selves to abide by this high rate. Such were the protec tive views of the Brazils, and even if her Majesty's Govern ment were prepared to set aside every considet ation of slavery, it would be perfectly hopeless to adopt the system suggested ; and that it. would, in a commercial point of view, be injurious to this country. There was another point alluded to by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had spoken to the liberal manner in which Brazil was treated, in a trading point of view, by other countries, and more p irticularly by America. Now he (Mr. Gladstone) could not concur in the view of the case taken by that Right Hon. Gentleman. He could not admit that anything which had been done by the English Government was a ground of complaint, on the part of the Brazilians, either as regarded sugar or coif e. With respect to Germany. it was an error to say that the Zollverein was favourable to the free importation of sugar. On the contrary, the duties upon sugar imported into Germany had ben increased.—( Hear.) In the ease of France there was a great difficulty—there were two difficulties. France had to protect the home production of sugar from the beet-root against the colonial sugar, and protect the colonial sugar against the competition of foreigners.— ( Hear, hear.) The duty fluctuated frpm 35 to 65 francs. The trede of France with Brazil was upon as unfavourable a footing as that of Brazil with England. The commerce of Brazil depended altogether upon British trade, and was carried on almost exclusively by British capital. Whilst he disap proved of the protective duties, he thought that this justice ought to be done to her Majesty's Government, that whilst they did not attempt to interfere with the Brazilian Go vernment in the management of their own financial affair=, they had not neglected the interests of this country when they could legitimately promote them.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped that the House was not prepared to support a motion which had regard merely to commercial advantages, but that they would look more liberally to the interests of mankind. Mr. M. GIBSON said that this question had not been fairly met. The Right lion. Gentleman opposite had shown that the trade with Brazil was of great importance to tine country. It was complained of the Brazilians that they put a duty upon British colonial sugar. But. it was not stated that we put on a dory of three hundred per cent. upon _foreign sugar.--( Hear, and cheers.) The fault was much more with us than with them. The Brazilians had declared that they would admit the productions of all countries upon equal terms. We heard a great deal ab ,ut slavery and the slave trade. A Noble Lord opposite had taunted his colleagues with bring thimble-riggers—( Hear, and laughter)--:but the rig that I was practised by the present Government. partook much more than anything done by their predecessors of the character of thimble-rigging. They talked one day of slavery, and the next the slave trade, until it became difficult to know under what thimble the pea was.. He said the Right Hon. Gentle man the First Lord of the Treasury spoke of putting down slavery in the Brazils. Was he aware of any power in Brasil. to put it down? If he was not aware of such a power, he was misleading the pulilic and the House by professing to have the intention of putting down slavery in South America. But, did not every reasonable man in that House, and in the country, know perfectly well that it was not slavery and the slave-trade that prevented Hon. Gentlemen opposite from equalising the duties on foreign and colonial sugar? There was not a man, woman, or child that gave them credit for any such motive. Why, who were they that talked so authorita tively, and in such deprecating terms, of slavery ? It was but the other day when they thnrnselves were slave-owners—when they stood by slavery as firmly and as fast as they did by colonial sugar now. Their real object was seen through. Their object, from the first, was monopoly, and monopoly was their object now. If they meant to prohibit foreign sugar altogether, why did they not do to o p en l y ? an d , a b ove all, why delude them with the idea that the time might come when these differential duties could be equalised? If the time was really to come with them, what better time could there be than the present? But the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Gladstone) went the length, plainly and openly, of saying that we must protect our own colonies. Protect out of their own means, if they liked ; but he (Mr: Gibson) protested against protecting the colonies at the expense of the industrious consumers and ever-toiling manufacturers of this country.— ( Hear, hear.) Now, he would ask that Right Hon. Gentle man, who, he believed, was himself a Went Indian proprietor —he would ask him, if he went to Manehester to buy a bale of goods, would he like to give more for that bile of goods than a Brazilian ? Mr. GLADSTONE—No. Mr. M. GIBSON--Very well. Then why should the Man chester manufacturer be called upon to give to the West India manufacturer, or producer of sugar, half as much more for his hogshead of sugar than he would have to give the Brazilian producer ? But, he asked, did protection do the West India colonies any good? Had it ever done them any ;rod ? The West India planters pretended they were in great distress, and so he ( Mr. Gibson) contended they ever would be. whilst they relied upon protection. They said that the emancipation of the slaves had greatly distressed them, and that from , that period and that circumstance they were not able to get a proper supply of labour. Now, he (Mr. Gibson) believed it was ge nerally understood, that with regard to that branch'of the slave subject the question was settled. That emancipation was paid for, and that the account was closed.—( Hear, hear.) And he believed, too, it was so closed that they , could not open it again. The matter was thoroughly looked into, well weighed, fully discussed—a balance of twenty millions was struck against the country ; the country paid the twenty millions, and he repeated, that account Could never again be opened.—( Hear, hear.) How long, however,-Ilid they propose to maintain these duties? Would twenty years satisfy them, or thirty years, or forty years—would eternity itself satisfy them ? No—it would not. So long 'as they had the power--t Hear, hear)—so long as they could maintain them, no excuse would be wanting. That they would be ever ready with, on the other side of the House. —( fear, hear.) But they had another excuse—systems could not be easily altered. Why the bad legislation of former days Was no war rant for there to do wrong to the manufacturers of this country now. It was no answer to their just complaints and remon strances, to say there was bad legislation in former times. They asked that House what they had done, that their rights, their capital, and their industry should be sacrificed as they were now sacrificed? What crime had they committed—what wrong done—that they should be treated in this *ay ? This was essentially a question of justice ; but in that' House they seemed to take it for granted that persons were to make mighty sacrifices at the shrine of monopoly, and to forego the fair and just reward of their own industry, that those who toiled not should live in luxury and sloth.—( Hear, hear. ), Let it be recollected that at the period when these laws were passed, the people were not represented in that House—it was a mere boroughmongering House, and all the laws passed. by it were passed by a particular class, in favour of a partscular,class. And it was no answer to the industrious people of this country, who had committed no crime, and done no wrong—it was no an. aver—at least no proper answer—to their murmurs to say that, because a great blunder and a great injustice had been 'com mitted by the Legislature years ago, they must ,be its con tented victims now. There was no better time for remedying this injustice than the present, as was proved by the petition he had, in the earlier part of the evening, presented toehat House, from the Chamber of Commerce at Manchester: This pe tition distinctly stated that the manufacturers: and mer chants of the country had been compelled greatly to di minish their exports to Brazil, because they could not get a fair return, oa account of the differential duties on sugar and coffee. Hitherto Brazil had put a duty of fifteen per cent. only on the cotton goods of this country, whilst this country put a duty of three hundred per cent. on the sugars of Brazil. For this state of things-.there was but one remedy, and that was the equalisation of duties on foreign and colonial sugars. He (Mr. Gibson) considered that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labourchere) was entitled to the gratitude of the country for having brought this subject before the House. His interference was clearly justified, and, in his opinion, whether followed with success or not, this debate would, with others, make the country see the impoliey of these monopolies, and create a feeling in all classes of the coin. munity which it would be impossible fur the Minister ultimately to resist.—( Hear, hear.) To show again that the present was the proper time to correct the blunders of the past he begged to call the Right Hon. Gentleman's 44r.', Glad stone's) attention to the state of the question as it 'now stood. The sugar duties were about to expire—they would expire of themselves.:' They Were abotit to die, and -could could holy be re • suscitated by a new Bill to be brought into that House s , and carried into an Act. He now told them plainly, that if they attempted in their new Bill to put their sugar duties on their present principle—the principle of exclusion—the Government would be met with the most strenuous opposition. It was per fectly intolerable that the poor and industrious of this country were to be excluded from the use of foreign sugar. At the present moment in England they did not consume more sugar than they consumed forty years ago. Rapidly as the population had increased— greatly as our wealth, nationally speaking, had been augmented —the people did not use per head one ounce more wear than they did forty years ago; the artisan and the labourer con sumed no more, no, nor yet so much, as was allowed to the pauper in the workhouse. Ard, therefore, he gave fair notice that the Bill 'for renewing the sugar duties, which must be brought in, would be opposed, not clause by clause, but almost word by word. It was right to do this, and those opposite could not, in their hearts, blame them for it ; it was the only way they had of battling with a monoply which they had themselves in principle condemned. They would be opposed upon it on every stage ; not merely on the first reading but on the second reading ; on the question that they do go into Committee, on every clause and almost every word in Com mittee; on the third reading, and on the question'that the Bill do pass.—( Hear.) Their slavery delusion would avail them no longer in the country. Its utter hypocrisy had been seen through. Even the Anti-Slavery Society had found them out, and would countenance them nn longer. They were now opposed to the paltry pretences which were used merely to delude them and the country, and they were opposed to making the people moral and religious at the point of the bayonet, and at the ex pense of the commerce and the industry of the country. He told the Government no longer to look for support from the advocates for the abolition of slavery.—( Hear, hear.) He could tell the Noble Lord, the Member for Liverpool (Lord Sander') that he must never again look for that support from his constituents on this question that he had heretofore met with. His constituents had given up that ground of opposition to an equalisation of the sugar duties as a most transparent deccit.—( Hear, hear.) Ile could tell the Noble Lord he must not consider he now represented the merchants, tradesmen, and manufacturers of Liverpool.--( Hear, hear.) He felt convinced if they were to analyse the poll-books of the town-clerk they would find that the Noble Lord and his colleagues did not represent the majority of the shopkeepers, manufacturers, and traders of Liverpool, but that they repre sented a class of men who stood forward in support of the party who paid them best.—( Hear, hear.) He did not mean to ac cuse the electors of Liverpool or the Members for that borough of being guilty of bribery and corruption, but there was that feeling existing in the town of Liverpool It would appear from the Members that Liverpool•returned to that House that they were in favour of monopoly. Such, how ever, was not the case, and he believed that the day would come—indeed that it was not far distant—when the Noble Lord would have to modify his opinions with respect to free trade, to meet the wishes of his constituents, and he would be ex pected, on the sugar duties coming under discussion, to take a prominent part in the matter. He would be called on to say whether he was or not in favour of keening out of the markets of this country foreign sugar, and whether he was favourable to commercial relations between this country and Brazils. The law, as it at ;present stood, prevented the manu facturers in this country from exchanging their manufactures for the sugars of the Brazil and other countries. In short, the protective system was the root and cause of all the difficulties that had taken place, and the only chance they had was to enable the West Indian proprietors to call out a spirit of in creased production. Lord Elgin commented most strongly upon the manner in which the agriculture of the West Indian islands had been carried on, and had stated that if parties in the country had exerted themselves as they ought to have done,. they might have produced twice as much as they did at pre sent. The Hon. Member concluiled amid much cheering. Lord SANDON regretted that the Hon. Member for Man chester had thought it worth his while to introduce into this im portant debate the petty politics he had alluded to. He (Lord Sandon thought he might have argued this great question without making the assertions lie had done, because these assertions were perfectly unfounded. The Hon. Member for Manchester had, mere than ;ince, made the same ehargd in that House, and it had failed. He had more than erne sasperted that he (Lord Santtee) ; had been elected by venal :freemen. lie hoped .that this l etyould be the last time such assertions would be made by Hon. Members in that House. The Hop. Member for Manchester had said that he (Lord Sandon) was not the representative of the mercantile interests of Liverpool. He ( Lord Sandon) thought he might appeal to the addresses that had been presented to him on that subject, in order to refute the assertion. He thought the Hon. Gentleman had been compelled to the adoption of the course he had pursued, in consequence of the impossibility of answering the speeeh of his Right Hon. Friend, the Presi dent of the Board of Trade. A speech more exhausting the subject he had never heard.—( Hear, hear.) '1 he Hon. Gen tleman had said that the manufacturers of Manchester had stated that they looked to an alteration in the sugar duties in order to open the markets of the world to this country. He thought that when the subject was well considered it would be thought by the manufacturers of Manchester not to be a boon worth scrambling for. The Hon. Gentleman had chal lenged him to go down to Liverpool and advocate the principles which he supported .in that House. lie should hive no hesitation in (loing so, feeling convinced that the coarse of conduct he had adopted would meet with the appro bation of his constituents. He did not believe as had been asserted that the people of England had changed their opi nions upon the question of slavery and the slave trade. The Members of that House might have changed their opinions upon the subject but the people had, pot. If they appealed to the people. they would find that they would not sacrifice every principle of justice to pounds, shillings, and pence. It was asserted that the course the Ministers were pursuing was cal culated to increase the price of that essential article of life— sugar. Now, what was the fact? Why, ever since the debate that was raised by the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, the price ef sugar hest been continually falling. There was no doubt that the market of Brazil was a very great and important one, but he was sure that when the Government of Brazil imposed duties on cotton and other manufactures of this country, the *manufac turers of Manchester would not be so eager to cultivate relations of amity with the people of Brazil. With respect to the estimate he had given of the quantity. of sugar that would be supplied from the colonies, he never in- ; tended to calculate exactly. No man could do that. But he was justified in what he had asserted by the fact, that the price of sugar had been filling ever since. He contended that for supplying the labeur, market of the West Indies, the choice lay between the immigration into these islands of free white labourers, or the negroes from Africa. A great impedi ment in the way of the supply of sugar was, the continual dis cussion of this question, which produced a feeling of uncer tainty. He repeated that he believed the honest abhorrence the people had for slavery was not at all diminished, and con cluded by declaring that he meld have no fear of being charged by his constituents with either hypocrisy or neglect of the com mercial interests of the country. Mr. BRIGHT rose, and said,. from the speeches he had heard that night from the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, and from the Noble Lord who had just sat down, he should have thought that gentleinen on that side of the House were specially interested either in the condition of the population,of some portions of Afrizla, or in the affairs •f the Brazilian empire. He should not have been aware, from any speech on that aide of the House, that they were engaged in any discuss:on on the real merits of the operation of the question on the great body of the consemers.of this country.— ( Hear, hear.) Nothing was more politic in a case so despe rately bad as this, than that Hon. Gentlemen should try to ride off on some other scent—( Hear, hear)—and the largest portioe of the speech of the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade, who was a Member of the Cabinet, was spent in dis cussing the slavery view of the quest ion, although it was notorious that he was himself one of a family which, perhaps more than any other, was in firmer times implicated in all that was most dis graceful in the system of slavery.—( Cries of " Oh, oh" from the Ministerial benches.) He meant not to make any charge as to particular acts.—(Oh, oh, and cheers.) He spoke only of slavery as a system.--( Oh, oh.) He did not believe that those connected with the Right Hon. Gentleman ever did anything but what every man who kept slaves was necessitated to do.— (Cheers and Oh, oh.) But the Right lion. Gentleman was now also a member of the Cabinet, supported by a party who were the special supporters, , in that House and the country, of slavery and the slave trade, as long as the people of this country permitted them to exist at all.— ( Cheers.) The Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool had spoken of the strong opinion of his constituents on this ques tion. While the Hon. Member for Manchester was speaking he saw the Hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. Borthwick) sit ting by the side of the Noble Lord. He recollected the time when that Hon. Gentleman was in Liverpool lecturing in fa vour of slavery, and the only party by whom that lion. Gen tleman was supported in delivering his lectures in favour of slavery, was the very party that returned the Noble Lord to this House. He had asserted elsewhere, and he was prepared to repeat it here, that their plea of an abhorrence of slavery, coining from that side of the House, was a dishonest plea. It was a p'ea that was made to seize hold of certain opinions which once did exist, and which were now supposed to exist, but which was never used so long as they had any other on which they could hang their support of this question. But it was a plea that would avail them no longer. He knew that the Anti- Slavery Society did send some representations to the Govern ment against the proposal to reduce the duty on foreign sugar. But he knew, also, that in that represen tation it was not supported by the Anti-Slavery Societies in the provinces—( Hear, hear) —and it was in the provinces that the real strength of the Society existed.—( Hear, hear. ) The Societies in Glasgow, in Manchester, in Liverpool, in Birmingham, at Hitchin, at Devizes, and in several other p„ laces had seceded from the Anti• Slavery Society on that ' very ground. They dissented with it on this question, and the Society, from that fatal error, had fallen into a state of complete helpleshiess. He knew this from experience, and "from information he had collected, and he had as good a right to speak on the point as any man, for he had visited every borough in England within the last twelve or eighteen months.—(oh, oh, and ironical cheers from the Ministerial benches.) The anti-slavery cry, raised with respect to the question of free trade, or the sugar question, would not hinder the return of any Member of Par liament who might come forward as a free trade candidate. ( Hear, hear.) But he should like to ask Hon. Gentlemen op posite why they raised this question of national morality ? Was it their duty to look after the morality of Brazil? Was it not their dot to look after the prosperity of their own country ?—( Hear, hear.) Were they sent to • Parliament that they might take under their specia patronage, every population of every portion of the earth, ex cept that of the country in which they themselves lived?— , (Cheers.) He declared he could not express the disgust and amazement—(Oh! oh!)—with which he had listened to the 1 speeches of the gentlemen opposite, in which they had spoken of the people of Africa, of Brazil, of every people of the world, except their own poor, except the famishing population of their own manufacturing districts.--( Cheers.) Who was it that en tertained these scruples about 'the introduction of Brazilian sugar? It was not the poor, it was the rich only—( Hear) — and they could have enough at whatever price it might , come in—( Cheers)—or, if there was only a supply of 4,000,00 0 cwts., with an increase of several millions of the population, it mattered nothing to Noble Lords in another place, to Hon. Members in this, to rich merchants, or bankers, or the clergy ; all these classes would be served out of this short supply before the poor of the population could come in for their share. If the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool, and the President 41 the Board of E Trade, had scruples on this matter, how had they any right, by reason of their conscientious scruples, to deny to five-sixths of the working classes of this country that supply of sugar, which their own industry might purchase them, if it were not w and system which they upheld.—(Cheers.) c onsume slave-grown sugar. L et t h ere b e freedom of eon fiofr any this man infamhoauds any scruples on the matter, he ought not to science on the question ; but let them not seek to impose shackles on the conscience of other men, especially of men who were not represented in that House, and who were the weakest and most defenceless of the people, and who, under the least ordinary circumstances, never got more than the commonest necessaries of life.-•-(Cheers.) • Treaties had been spoken of between this country and Brazil ; suppose Brazil would allow their goods to come in without any duties at all, what effect would that have on the sugar question? They had had already almost an open market in Brazil—the Brazilians had done everything they could for them in ad. mitting their goods at duties of la and 18 per cent. ; they had ,no Teasels to c omp l a i n o f t h em . Yet they feun4 }list, their ; trade with' Braid 'had, , for ; ma years, been diminishing. _ The _good of the present to, treaty they had deprived, the country of, by sacrificing their : country to - a , class and selfish monopoly interest ; and whatever treaty they might make in -future, unless they chose to lower the duties on the sugar of Brazil, however advantageous it might seem upon paper, the trade must be greatly crippled, and all who de pended on it must greatly suffer. The Right Hon. Gentle man alluded to the fact that the East Indies and the Mauritius would not long, and did not then, greatly require protection, but that the West Indies did require it, because labour was scarce, and dear because of its scarcity. Why, the planters themselves were themselves to blame for any scarcity of labour in the West Indies. They were told that the climate of Jamaica was favourable to the negro population, yet for many years it did not increase but diminish ; and had the emancipatian been delayed fifteen years longer, such was the brutality and sill treatment of the slaves by the planter that the negro population would have been utterly exterminated. He thought this was about the worst plea that could possibly be offered by the West Indian planters in defence of the sys tem by which the people must be robbed and spoiled of not less ' than four or five millions annually, to support the monopoly in which these planters had so direct an interest. But the quer- . tion with regard to the consumers in this country was, that there was not enough sugar for their supply, He bad heard no remedy proposed for this; the people were ill supplied; the consumption of Ireland was a trifle—that tof the agricultural counties of England scarcely worth alluding to—and all that was consumed in the country was well known to be deterio rated to a serious extent.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Every thing was striving to baffle the system they had built' up. There was no incrcaee in the quantity of the sugar ; there was an increase in all the dealers in it, and a decrease in the profits they made ; some sold the article without any profit at all, and in some places the grocers would not sell sugar to families unless they purchased other articles from which a profit could be made. The object of the sugar monopoly was precisely the same as that of corn. It was to benefit the proprietors of the West Indian isles, in the same manlier as the corn law was meant to benefit the proprietors of land in England. The gentlemen opposite knew this as well as he did. No man knew it better than the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, unless it was the Right Hon. Baronet who sat on his right hand—( Hear, hear) —who propounded those principles years ago—(Cheers)—and who, perhaps, taught him (Mr. Bright) the first lessons he ever received in political economy.—(Laughter and cheers, during which Sir J. Graham bowed to the lion. Member in acknowledgment of the , reference.) The country, too, knew that they supported a selfish interest, and however much they might have deluded the people in time past, there was now intelligence enough in the country to put an end to this and every other monopoly, by which they might fancy they profited.—(Oh, oh, and indications of impatience.) He knew how difficult it was to convince any of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite of the impolieyof the monopo lies either of sugar or corn. The Right Hon. Baronet, in his speech on the Irish debate—(Question, question)—spoke of a man, charged with riding over a piece of land while hunting, being tried by a jury of fox-hunters. Ho was just in that con dition. They had galloped over his interests—( Oh, oh) —they had trampled over the interests of 500 or 600 men whom he employed in that trade, that greatly depended on the Brazilian trade ; they had disregarded the vital inte rests of several hundreds of working men, by whose suffrages he was permitted to speak in that House. He was here on his own aceount and un theirs, to plead before a jury—not of fox - - hunters, but monopolists, and he was endeavouring to show that his constituents were wronged by the system they sup.. ported. 'Who had denied it? The President of the Board of Trade did not a say a word about it ; he knew a great deal better. The Right Honourable Baronet at. the head of the Government proficient as he was in the art must have envied his President of 'the Board of Trade the powers he possessed. He had never heard so many words put together with so much smoothness, and se entirely avoiding the question under discussion. And when the Right Hon. Baronet got up himself, he would venture to say that he would as studiously evade the question as he had done. Why was it? Why had any class, eitheir in that COUII , try or in the colonies, the right, or why did they assert the power, to prevent the larger portion of the population -of this country from having that supply of sugar which their industry might purchase for them? Now he asked sortie Hon. Gentleman on the opposite side to tell them that. It was all very well for Hon. Gentlemen .1481 of 1431 mo;t :. ..z did?! .TT : opposite to taunt those who had been once in office with what they hail not done when they had great difficulties to contend with; but it was - no reason to give to the country for anyline of condurt, that Whig Ministers were as bad as they were. They were returned to that House for a different purpose—for the purpose of discussing and settling those great national questions upon the broad principles of justice, without any regard to self-interest. Their monopolies all hung, toge ther—it was the same with c o rn , w ith sugar, and with timber, m —(lronical cheers fro Col. Sibthorp. ) H e b e li eve d the Hon. Member for Lincoln had given that exp ress i on o f di ssent . Now he (Mr. Bright) had met in the county of Lincoln a person who objected to the repeal of the corn-laws, and he asked him if the Ministry repealed the corn-laws what would he have done with the sugar-laws? His answer . was, repeal them, of course ; and he ( Mr. Bright) would ask a planter on the other side of the House, who wax only a sugar planter, what would he have done with the eern-laws if the sugar monopoly were done away with ? Why, he would becone a Leaguer at once—he cared not one straw for any monopoly, but that by which he profited. Therefore, it was he (Mr. Bright) charged them all as monopolists in sugar as well as in timber. He charged them with not fulfilling their duty to their constituents in thus regarding the interests of classes only. in opposition to the well-known interests of the great body of their constituents and of their countrymen. What was the condition of thole people whose interests suffered by the sacrifice of the Brazilian trade ? Had they so soon for gotten that, two years age, JOO,OOO men had come out of Lancashire, and asked the ruling powers what they meant to do for them ? They had in those districts of Lanca shire and Yorkshire the most industrious population on the face of the earth. He lived amongst them, and he knew them tell, and he knew that' from their industry the - rents of Hon. Gentlemen were gathered, and that it was the profits of their trade which enabled the country to carry on the late long and sanguinary wars. He knew that the agriculture of this coumt:y never yet maintained the prosperity of the country. However, they disregarded the interests of these manufacturing districts; and then they lately had their long discussion upon the state of Ireland, with its two millions and a quarter of paupers. —( Cries of " Question.") • Should they not, while the popu lation was. in such a state, extend the trade of the country, so, as to correspond with the extension of the population ?—(Cries of " Question.") It was to the question to refer to one por tion of the empire which they would gladly forget, but that circumstances would not allow them. In that country, then, a population—upwards of two millions—more numerous than the population of this vast metropolis, were in a starving con dition.--( Question.) He could make great allowance, from the occupations in which Hon. Gentemen opposite had engaged during the recess, for their unwillingae,s to grapple with this question. But there was a trade which employed a vast number of the people of Lancashire and the people of Ireland, who, driven from their homes by the brutality of the landlords, came to Lancashire by hundreds and thousands. He had at the present moment many families of those poor people in his employment, who could give horrible and appalling accounts of the circum stances under which they were driven from their native coun- try. Well, then, they had upwards of two millions of paupers in Ireland, more than a million in England and Wales, and an enormous mass of pauperism in Scotland, with wages in the agricultural districts of that country of not more than 6s. per week.; and even in some of the English counties the wages were as low as 6s. per week.—(Cries of " N 0..") Let the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire get up and quote from the pam phlet of the Rev. Godolphine Osborne. He had the title of Honourable becore his name, and he (Mr. Bright) therefore supposed he was connected with the aristocracy. CA had also the title of reverend, and therefore, he presumed, belonged to an establishment which was not particularly de mocratic. in its tendency—yet that writer gave a more appalling description of the state of the people in that country than any member of the Anti-Corn-Law League had yet ventured to give.—( Cries of." Question.") What did the country papers tell them? Ought they not to take some steps to ascertain the cause of the deep seated discontent of the agricultural counties ?—the cause of those outrages upon property which were, to a certain extent, com mitted upon farms, in some of the counties where they were obliged to keep private watchmen.—(No, no.) Why, it was so. Let them read the accounts of the incendiary fiires recorded in the newspapers. It was for the Legislature, in such a state of things, to consider whether their only concern in dealing with this question was, whether the West Indian planter should have fifteen shillings per cwt. less, or not, on sugar. It was their business to see if any remedy could be devised for the present state of matters, and if they could devise such remedy to apply it at once. That was their duty if they claimed to be statesmen. If a remedy lay within the Constitution it was their duty to apply that remedy. He had risen to exp'ain his views and to state his intention of sup porting the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. Though there might be a majority against that motion, and Ministers might thereby obtain a party triumph, they were not therefore re moved from the terrible, the awful, and the ever-accumulating responsibility of doing their duty, and spurning the domination of the monpolist part y.—( Cheers. ) Mr. F. T. H I RING said that the Noble Lord (Lord San don) who spoke last on the other side, had addressed himself a good deal to a proposition made by him (Mr. Baring) when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, rather than to the real subject under discussion. What that proposition was, he (Mr. Baring) would net then trouble the House with repeating. At the time it had been proposed, it was upon the considera tion of revenue that it had been advanced. tie had been told, both now and then, that that proposition would be ineffective. All he could say was, that if it were ineffective, they had now means, which they had not then, of giving a reduction, which the state of the finances would not permit. If it was denied that it would give relief, let it not stand in their way at the pr,:t sent moment. They were open to consider any more effective pro position than he had been able to lay before the House. There was, however, one point which the House must permit him to re-state to them. It had been used as a taunt against the Members of the late Government that they had changed their opinions upon the question of protecting colonial sugar. He reminded them that when the duties were renewed it was announced to be a renewal for one year, and if any Hon. Mem ber who was present at the interview of West India pro prietors witirthe Government on that occasion had any remem brance of the matter, he would admit that it was so stated at the time, and moreover that it excited considerable dissatisfac tion, as though they designed to lower the duty, though they did not state so. The speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade on the subject had been made with his usual ability and clearness, but in nothing had he shone to such advantage as in avoiding irritating topics. But then one part of the Right Honour. able Gentleman's speech would be looked at with anything but satisfaction—he meant his narration relative to the negotiation, because it left the case of further negotiation hopeless. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated the propositions that were made, on the part of the Government of Brazil, which he said it was impossible for the Government of this country to accept. But that left upon him (Mr. Baring) the ' impression that they had put off to too late a time their dealing with that country. If they had, some years ago, dealt more liberally with the staple articles of that country, sugar and coffee, they would have raised a better feeling towards th em on the part of the Government of that cmintry.—( Hear, hear.) He heard, with sincere regret, that the Government of Brazil were about to take the course of protection. He was not inclined to speak against what had been stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman, or to overrate their trade with Brazil. But whatever that trade was, it was of such a nature that, in the present state of the manufacturing popula tion, it ought not to be neglected. He confessed he thought there were no two countries so admirably adapted by nature for commercial intercourse, as this country and Brazil. But the opportunity of improving that intercourse had been ne glected, and they now came, at a late hour, to remedy that neglect. He had looked with some interest at the estimates of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the last three years. In the years 1841 and 1842, he estimated that the quantity of sugar to be imported would be 1,1(30,000 cwts. ; in making that estimate, the Right Hon. Gentleman had made a mis which was short of the de man d take. He promised a supply by the amount for three months' consumption. He would not enter into the estimate for last year, because there seemed to be some confusion in the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech. He (Mr. Baring) was not certain whether the estimate stated the stock in hand, or the stock expected; however on the esti mate for the three years there was a deficiency of half a year's consumption, as compared with the amount really con sumed. Now he asked any impartial man who looked at these 4.ggrePs L to stitte if,he was Juksetisfied thit..thet,eensumption was stinted by, the smelhiess of Vie Ripply ?„- Taking the average the last five years,'it appeared, that the_ quantity introduced into the country. excreded the actual consumption only by the consumption of two days, showing that as' consumption followed SO 'closely on the heels of supply, it must have been stinted by the smallness of it. Would any one tell him, leaking at the habits of the people of this country and of Ireland, that if there had been a free arid open supply, there would not hays,been a much greater con sumption of sugar? It Mr. Huskisson, when we brought for. ward his sugar duties, told them that there was a large class of their poorer fellow subjects who did not use sugar at all, why was it that tea and coffee were now consumed to a much greater extent than formerly, while the consumption of sugar had not increased in the same proportion ?—( Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend had stated truly, that since 1831 th consumption of tea and coffee had increased about 33 per cent. —( Hear.) Let him illustrate his position by the case of to• bacco. They all knew that great complaints were made of the smuggling of tobacco as well as of its adulteration, and there fore he could not perhaps take a mere unfavourable case. Not withstanding this, hoover, the consumption of tobacco had increased since 1831 17 per cent. The increase in the con sumption of sugar was only 7 per cent —( Hear, hear.) Now a good deal of argument had been used with refer ence to the question of slavery. He would ask MM. Gentle men opposite whether, upon the grounds they had taken, it was possible to defend all the anomalies which spread through their systems. He contended that it was impossible to carry out fairly and frankly the principles which they had laid down with regard to slavery and sugar. The Right Hon. Gentle man had been reminded of the case of cotton, but he drew a distinction with respect to that article. M hy, with the Right Hon. Gentleman's talent for drawing distinctions, he would not be surprised if he were able to show a distinction between the sugar of Brazil and the sugar of America.—(Laughter.) The Right lion. Gentleman had been questioned also with respect to coffee. Would he tell him (Mr. Baring) that no Cuba coffee ever came into this country ? In fact, it was impossible to apply the principle. Whether foreign countries, looking at the course which they pursued with respect to other articles, would be entirely persuaded of their perfect honesty and good faith with reference to sugar, was a question which he confessed he should have great diffi culty in solving; knowing, as he did, that almost every fo reign country looked on this declaration with regard to sugar as mere empty profession. He now came more immediately to the question of slavery. The Right Hon. Gentleman had put that question very fairly. He said it was not slavery which he contemplated. Why, if it were, it would be im possible to deal with any article that came from Ame rica. Nor was this the only difficulty. Almost the only treaty which the Right Honourable Gentleman had framed was a treaty with the Government of Russia; and though no one could talk of slavery in Russia, as the word was generally understood, vet that modified slavery which pre vailed in the system of serfs would present a formidable diffi culty; and the, Right Hon. Gentleman must remonstrate with the Czar of Russia, and beg that his Imperial Majesty would issue better - regulations for the treatment of his subjects.— ( Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Right Honourable Gentle man objected to slavery in the Brazils, because it en couraged the slave trade, and because the only means of getting rid of of the slave trade was by abolishing slavery in that country. The Right Hon. Gentleman said last year that he would consent to the admission of Brazilian sugar on condi tion that immediate measures should be introduced by the Brazilian Government to ameliorate the state of the slave, with the ultimate view of abolishing slavery. Now he (Mrs Baring) did not look with the slightest feelings of disre spect on the strong feeling which was exhibited in this country on the subject of slavery.—( Hear, hear.) He believed it to be the duty of every man to do his best to get rid of that scourge of the human race; but he would ask whether any conditions which they might impose on Brazil were likely to produce the slightest effect ? How could they carry it out ? The whole argument rested upon this. The Right Hon. Gentleman ad mitted that there was no deficiency in the formal words of the existing treaties. And he stated that if the treaties were car ried into effect the slave-trade would be abolished to-morrow. Why was not this done? Because the slave-trade was patro nised and encouraged by the noble and provincial authori ties of Brazil ; and because every person in authority who set himself honestly 4o get rid of the slave-trade was dismissed from his office. Would they leave it then to the Brazilian Government to carry into effect in the interior of the ~•::: ~ its. toi ° 1 0 ' barriste r !.4 Ted 0 the 1 3 11 ' le ; of the 11 %0 )1111tri ipon cOP,A lot rest ,_j lut i e s 0110" d country, measures to ameliorate the condition of the slaves with a view to their ultimate emancipation ?—( Hear, hear.) When they could not carry into effect a treaty with cruisers, steatn•vessels, and cannon, would they leave it to the Brazilian Government to carry out their object ?- e s-( Hear, hear.) ' Did they mean to establish in the Brazils protectors of the slaves ? Was the Consul to be constantly receiving complaints and car rying them to the Government ? . Could they, as the result of such a state of things, expect anything but perpetual com plaints on the one side, and perpetual dislike and hostility en the other ? When slavery existed in their West India colo nies, would they have permitted any foreign country to act as the protector to the slave population ?—( Hear, hear.) He incerely believed that if any foreign Power had had a right to interfere and_ to make complaints to the British Government, the effect would have been to unite one of the most powerful of all feelings—the reeling of national pride, with the worst of causes—the cause of slavery, while the abolition of slavery would rather have been postponed than accelerated by such interference.—( Hear.) At that hour he would not trespass any longer on the attention of the Horse. He could not but .again express a hope that if Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite conceived that the coffee and sugar duties must eventually be alzered, they should he wise in time, and not postpone till it was:too late to attempt to restore the commercial relations of this country -with one of the most important countries in the world. —( Cheers. ) " Sir It PEEL said he promised the House that he would make no observation which had not an immediate bearing on the question under consideration ; and also that he world imie. tate the general tone and temper in which the Right Hoe. Gen tleman who had just addressed them had discussed this subject. He would not even follow him in his criticisms on the failure in the estimates of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He would not stop to inquire whether ' he himself was open to re crimination, though he did not know any one who should exer cise-more tolerance in reference_ to erroneous estimates.— ( Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentlemaa . said it was particularly unfortunate that the Government had not, some short time since, adopted a more liberal policy towards the Brazils; ind, to illustrate his meaning, he fixed upon a period of two or three years. If the Right Hon. Gentleman had mentioned three or four years, so as just to include the year 1840—(Laughter)—that year, in which he had offered a strenuous opposition to the proposal of the Hon. Gentleman who had seconded the motion that evening, the House would be equally able to form an opinion in reference to the delay. —(Laughter.) Having thus disniissed any reference of a personal nature, he must say that he thought the Right HOn. - Gentleman was hardly warranted in the statements which he, had made with reference to the diminished consumption' in sugar. It - was impossible to come to 'a right conclusion in reference to a question of this nature if they dismissed all re ference to figures. He begged to refer the House to the quan tity of sugar taken out for home consumption for several years past. In 1837 the amount was 3,954,000 cwt. ; in 1838, 3,825,000 cwt. ; in 1839, 3,590 o 000 cwt. ; in 1840, 4,065,000 cat. ; in 1842, 3,876,000 cwt. ; and in last year 4,045,000 cwt., being a greater consuMption than had been known in any former year, with the single exception of 1841, and the increased consumption in that . year was accounted for by ' the deficient supply of the preceding one. They had therefore this fact before them that in the year ending the Ist January, 1844, the consumption of sugar in this country was greater with one exception than in any pre ceeding year.—(Hear, hear.) Now did that increased con sumption lead to an increased price ?—( Hear, hear.) In 1837, the price of sugar was 395. 2d. per cwt. ; in 1840, 49:.; in 1841, 38s. 3d. ; in 1842, 375. 3d. ; in 1843, 345. Id. ; so that the year of the greatest consumption was coincident with that of the lowest price. Therefore ' in answer to th e criticisms of the Right Hon. Gentleman he bad these two facts, that in the last year there had been the greatest con sumption, and in the last 'year there had also been' the lowest price.—( Hear, hear.) At the same time he was bound to confess that he did not think these facts at all conclusive against the probability of an increase in the consumption of sugar was in consequence of the reduction of duty. He thought there was scarcely an article could be named the reduction of the price of which would not add materially to the comforts of the people.—( Hear, hear.) But Hon. Gentlemen should not press into their service as an argument against the Govern ment, that the supply had diminished while the price had in creased, when the fact was, that the supply had increased and the price diminished. Mr. HAWES—Not quite. Sir R. PEEL said he compared 1842 with 1843. Of course there had been a slight increase in the population • but be had not taken a remote period. Now what was the ' flight Hon. ientleman's motion ?—( The Right Hen. Baronet here read the words of the motion at length.) It would be an extra ordinary course for the House of Commons to select one country, of all the countries in the civilized world, ,and present an address to her Majesty on the importance of our trade with that country.—( Hear, hear.) He did net wish to' undervalue the trade of Brazil, though he thought its importanice ha 1 been rather exaggerated. But why, he would ask, I should the House of Commons select Brazil in particular as the subject of an address to her Majesty? Had it reference to recent nego tiations ? If it had, then he decidedly objected to !the motion, because it implied approbation of the course Brazil had pur sued. Brazil had made an offer to England. Noal the manu factures of England were introduced into Brazil at a duty of fifteen per cent. The proposition made by Brazil to this country was--.‘ You shall not impose a duty upon our sugar when imported in England, when it shall exceed one-tenth of the amount of duty levied on colonial sugar." That was to say—" If you levy a duty of 10s. on colonial sugar, we shall protest against your imposing more than I Is. upOn Brazilian sugar—( Hear, hear)—but at the same time we demand this from you, that you will permit us to raise the duty now levied on British manufactures from 151. to 40s."—(Cheers and laughter.) That was the proposal made to this country by Brazil, and that proposal this country rejected.--(Cheers.) He hoped the House of Commons would not sanction a reso lution which implied that the proposition which he had just alluded to was a just and reasonable one. He should be sorry to say one word that could be considered offensive ; to the Go vernment of Brazil—but more especially if negotiations should be on the point of being entered into between this country and the empire of Brazil. He should be sorry to syr anything which might imply that he believed that the Government of Brazil were actuated by anything but friendly feelings to wards this country, and he hoped he had said no word which could possibly be construed into an attempt to check the opera tion of that feeling. If they wanted to make Brazil unreason able—if they wanted to induce Brazil, in future negotiations, to insist on all she had hitherto insisted upon, then, would they pass this resolution of the House of Commons, hick would have that particular bearing, if it had any rneanin at all. In , what a position would they place the Government He pre- , sumed the House of Commons was not going to u dertake ne gotiations? No ; the House of Commons was going to leave to the Executive Government the duty of undertaking and continuing the negotiations. By this resolutiou tha House of Commons would fetter the Executive Government, for this address to the Crown, if it meant anything, implied approba tion of the course one party had taken, and that pirty adverse to the propositions of the Government of this country. Would not the Brazils say to the Government of this country, " You are fettered—this is implied by the proceedings of the House of Commons ; we insist on all we ask and have asked,ifor we have before us a resolution of the House of Commons, which, by im plication, conveys approbation of our proposals." ;He (Sir R. Peel) earnestly advised the House of Commons to leave this mat ter in the hands of the Executive Government, and not encourage the Brazils to persevere in unreasonable propositions. He called upon them not tie up the hands of the Government. The House of Commons had been invited to affirm this reso lution upon various arguments, and he thought that most of those arguments had been effectively destroyed by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone). The Right Hon. Gentleman who brought forward this motion, had appealed to the House in the most solemn and emphatic manner, and he contrasted the conduct of Germany with the conduct of England. The Right Honourable Gentleman pointed to the course adopted by the Zollverein. " There," he said, " are your great manufacturing rivals your competitors, in the markets of Brazil. Now the greatest facility is given by the Zollverein for the importation of 13r8zilian produce, and what is the system you 'have pursued ?" The Right Hon. Gentleman invited the House of Commons to vote for this address upon that statement, and upon the assumption that the Zollverein imposed only a duty of 15s. per cent. upon sugar imported from Brazil. Now his (Sir R. Peel's) Right lion. Friend's answer to that was, that it was an entirely wrong statement. The duty imposed by the Zollverein upon Brazilian sugar was not 15s. per cent., but 275. per cent. The Right Hon. ,Gentleman ( Mr. Labouchere) then referred to some friendly trea . t ies,whieb had been lately ente i Til into, he between France and Brazil, - by whieliThe manufactures of France were to be admitted into Brazil at a low duty. lie (Sir R. Peel 1 knew the effect that was :ought to be created by that statement, for its contradiction would have little effect to-morrow. He could only say, as the Minister of England, if such a treaty had been signed at Paris, that no information of such a fact had reached the Government of this country ; and if it had been signed, the fact was wholly unknown to the French Ambassador residing in this country.—( Cheers on the Ministerial side of the House.) He (Sir Robert Peel) must say, when he recol lected the difficulties in which the French Government were placed with respect to sugar, that he did not think it probable that any treaties could have been signed for admitting Brazilian sugar into France at a very low duty. Nuw the Hun. Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson) had made some of the boldest statements he (Sir R. Peel) had ever heard. The Hon. Gentleman said, " I give you warning ; the commercial classes are all decidedly against you on this ques tion of imposing discriminating duties between sugar the pro duce of free labour and the produce of slave labour." He then said, ". I tell you that the Anti-Slavery Association are de cidedly averse to your view." He said, .4 They condemn the whole system of armed intervention for the purpose of suppreSs ing the slave trade. • Your armed steamers are odious to them, for they do not want to inculcate morality by means of discriminating duties." Now he (Sir Robert Peel) expected that this argument would be used, and if he had been told to name the man who would use it he would have named the Hon. Member for Manchester.—(Cheers and laughter.) He (Sir R. Peel) had, therefore, provided himself against this statement. He happened fortunately to have a document in his possession, received by himself from the Anti-Slavery So ciety within the last month. He hoped, therefore, that the Hon. Gentleman would permit the Anti-Slavery Society to speak for themselves. This document was addressed to him, and was dated Feb. 9, 1844 Sir,—The Committee of the British and Foreign Anti-Slavery Society deem it their duty to lay before you their views in selation to a subject so inti mately connected with the great object of their proceedings— the extension of the slave trade," He ( Sir Robert Peel) was perfectly willing to admit that part of this communication confirmed the statement of the Honourable Gentleman that the Anti-Slavery So. ciety were not favourable to armed intervention as a means of suppressing the slave trade. He would put this document into his hand, and then the Hon. Gentleman could see whether there was any passage in it he could find favourable to his own views.. The document went on to state that all experience showed that the armed intervention only aggravated the evil of slavery. Under the influence of that consideration they went on—" The Committee present their earnest request to you, Sir Robert, and her Majesty's Government, that a measure may be prepared for admitting the free grown produce of all parts of the world on the same terms as the produce of our colonies. And the Committee desire and trust that no relaxation of the existing duty on the produce of slave-labour will. be allowed." —( Cheers.) These were the opinions expressed by that Anti- Slavery Society, which the Hon. Gentleman had told the House of Commons were men who did nut vish to inculcate . morality by means of discriminating duties between sugar the produce of free-labour, and sugar the produce of slave-labour. Mr. M. GIBSON—I do not admit that that Committee re represents the Anti-Slavery Society. Sir R. PEEL—But the Hon. Member wished to leave an impression on the House that the Anti-Slavery Society were 'opposed to all discriminating duties as a means of suppressing slavery and thesslave trade. Now, by whom was this letter signed ? The Hon. Member said he did not admit the autho rity, but all he (Sir Robert Peel) could say, was that the corn . munication_bore the venerable name of Thomas Clarkson.— (Hear, hear.) He (Sir R. Peel) very much doubted whether the Anti-Slavery Society would disclaim sentiments expressed by such a pgson, and professed by every one connected with the Anti-Slavery Society. N ow , h e did not say t h at a ll t h ose opinions which he had read ought to be binding on the Legis tore, and he did - not mean to attach more weight to them than they deserved, but he did protest against Hon. Gentle men invoking the authority of the Anti-Slavery Society for the snpport of their own views, when it was proved on the authority of the Anti-Slavery Society itself, that their views were decidedly opposed to them. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward this motion had intimated that his object was to.obtain a declaration from the Govern ment on the subject of the sugar duties. if his object was to recommend a reduction of the sugar duties, why not recommed A it in plain terms in his resolution ? He said that unless they placed the, duty on Brazilian sugar on the same footing as co lonial sugar, he would offer opposition to the sugar duties on every stage, on every line, and on every word. He did not apprehend that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wrier Gibson) would meet unqualified support even from his own side of the House ; they were not prepared to adopt; the principle' that Brazilian and Cuba sugar was to be treated in. the same manner as colonial sugar ; they would discriminate. Nothing could be more unjust than to impose the same rate of duty in foreign countries in which slavery existed, and in our colonies where slavery was not tole reaotuerda.gt—ncrHuteaorn,ohpoely, ) but T th h e e _G u o ov ve e r r n orn me e n n t t w w e o r ta e d a n ec o u t :e n d ot o w f i e th n - - standing those taunts, disregard the condition of their colonial dependencies, nor would they act without taking into account the sound considerations connected with them. It was very well for the Hon. Member for Durham to say that no question should be considered but the interests of the consumers, and that what most tended to cheapen the price of sugar was the only real question. Now, he doubted, after all, whether that was the most economical view of the subject. Suppose the course recommended by the Hon. Member were pursued, and that our colonies were in consequence involved in distress and anarchy, he doubted whether they could release themselves from the moral obligation at present connected with them, and whether in so doing they would be consulting tru e e e n c (i n n s n o to m e y e . a n T d hteh the promotion m G o e t i n o ' o l Gentleman e () s ol e me t r h ee a t t w h interests of h e e re the two onlyt e objects which the Government should regard. If these opinions were acted upon it was vain to look for the extinction of slavery. If the cheapness of sugar was the only thing to be sought after, why had they gone to so much expense for the purpose of putting down slavery ? Why not permit slavery in our own colonies—why not give them the poser of supporting slaves, when they would be enabled to produce sugar cheaper ? ( Hear, hear.) Before the abolition of the slave trade in the West Indian colonies they produced much more sugar than they did since--they were able to supply not only this country, but they had a surplus. The Government were now about to adopt a much more effectual plan -than any hitherto resorted to for the suppression of the slave trade. Slaves were still imported • into the Brazils by thousands and tens of thousands ; and the local autherities of the country, he was sorry-to say, connived at this odious traffic. It was suggested to the Government by Captain Denman, an officer who deserved the thanks of every true philanthropist for his exertions in sup pressing the slave trade, that our naval force should be in creased on the coast of Africa so that they could act with com plete efficiency. They were to keep constant guard on that part of the coast, and the utmost vigilance to be used. By thus watching every port on the coast for 600 or 700 miles, Captain Denman believed that much more would be done than by any treaties or stipulations to check the trade, and prevent the horrors of the passage. The Government were about to give this plan a trial. More steamers would be employed, and no precaution or exertion would be wanting to carry out the ob ject, and he trusted in God they would be successful.— ( Hear, hear.) But, according to the Hon. Member's doctrine to make sugar Id. cheaper was a sufficient justification of the toleration of slavery. He trusted that the House of Commons would he influenced by higher feelings than those expressed by the Hon. Member for Durham. Twenty millions hail been granted by this country for the purpose of abolishing slavery in our own dominions; and he trusted that the House was net prepared to follow in the wake of the Hon. Gentleman, for if so, they would admit that they had not been justified in the expenditure of a single shilling of that sum, which had been allocated for the mitigation of that great moral evil.— ( Hear, hear.) There was a time when the persuasion to which the Hon. Member belonged would not have advocated such sentiments.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches, and cries of Oh, oh, from the Opposition). They would rather have made a sacrifice for the abolition of slavery. Last year, they had passed an Act, prohibitin g t h e emp l oyment of British capital in producing those articles in which slave labour was engaged. They were now about making a great experiment, for the purpose of preventing the importation of slaves ; but if they abolished the duty on Brazilian sugar, they would be giving a fresh impetus to slavery. He agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman in thinking it unwise, inexpedient, and improper to interfere with the domestic Legis lature of another country, but he did not agree with him in thinking that no measure could be carried out which would effectually prevent slavery. If the Brazilians agreed for in stance that in future the children of the African negroes should be born free, or that after a certain period the slaves should be set free--these things would have the desired effect, and such a result it was not impossible to effect. He deprecated all in elerference in any matter connected with this treaty which would have a tendency to encourage the Brazilians in demand ing from that House any concession likely to prevent the House from exercising that independence which all Executives should have in negotiations with another country.—( Cheers. ) Lord PALMERSTON said he should not, at that late hour, detain the House long. He did not think that the Hon. Member for Durham had been fairly dealt with.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet had wished to pay a compliment to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he ( Lord Palmerston) thought that the compliment might have been well returned to the Right Hon. Baronet himself.—. ( Laughter.) He asserted that this question had been put upon a narrow basis. In reply to the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet with respect to the admission of sugar, he should ask him whether the supply should not only be as great as that required for the consumption of the country, but also whether there would not be a great impulse given to the trade of the country ?—( Hear, hear.) He thought that this 'question assumed quite a diflerent shape when it became one of negotiation. In a speech from the Throne, the Government announced its inten eion of departing from its usual custom, and that totally diffe rent persons were to be entrusted with their negotiations. He said that he never yet knew the powers with which these ne gotiations were carried on, nor their results. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had stated, in answer to his ( Lord Pal merston's) Right Honourable Friend, that these arrangements were most difficult of accomplishment, and that there should be of commercial .interests between the two countries. But his Right Hon. Friend's query was, how these negotiations were to be carried on, and, therefore, it was quite a different question from that touched upon by the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo site. It had been stated that the Government of Brazil had made some most unreasonable proposals. The Right Hon. Gentleman was right not to accept them. If the matter had been carried on as it should have been in 1841, they would have been enabled to gain better terms now. It was not a mere question, as to whether slavery in Brazil should be abolished or not. It was a well known fact that the Brazilian Government agreed on terms with the representatives of the Crown of Great Britain, that persons engaged in the slave trade should be treated as felons. On the showing of the Right Hon. Gentleman op • posite, it was quite cleat that the Brazilian Government had rot fulfilled the conditions of the treaty of 1826. If the Brazilian Government had faithfully executed the conditions of the treaty, there would be no necessity for an Act of the British Parliament to protect Brazilian produce against that of free labour.—( Hear, hear.) It was notorious to all the world that thousands of slaves were annually imported into Brazil ; and he would put it to the House whether the great zeal which was shown was not a zeal to favour those who favoured the Government.—(Cheers. The whole object of the Government was to serve the West India interest.—(Cheers.) The whole object of the measure was to maintain the sugar monopoly of the West Indies.—( Hear.) If they waited until the Brazilians emancipated their slaves, or until, as suggested by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), they appointed a time after which all children born of negro slaves should be considered free, in his (Lord Palmerston's) ap prehension no person in that House would live to see the day When foreign sugar would be admitted into this country.—( Hear. ) The Government were always very liberal in their speeches and declarations, but when called upon to put those principles into effect, then they fell hack into their old and usual do-no thing habits.—(Hear, hear.) They told the House and the country that the principles of free trade were the principles of common sense—they told the merchants and manufac turers of the country that their true policy was to buy in the cheapest, and to sell in the dearest market—but when they were asked, even in a modified degree, to apply the rule either-to corn, or sugar, or coffee, or anything else, then they ran back for support to the monopolists upon whose shoulders they came into power.—( Loud cheers ) The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) objected to the motion be cause it related exclusively to Brazil, and might., from its sole and direct application to that country, have an injurious ten dency on any future negotiations that might take place between that Government and the English Cabinet.—( Hear, hear.) This might be remedied ;' and •he 'was sure his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Labnuchere) who proposed this address to the Crown, in his desire to conciliate opposition and to meet the views of all parties, would meet the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) half-way, or even entirely, by leaving out the word Brazil altogether and generalizing the verbiage of the motion so as to include our trade and com merce with all foreign States vihatever.—( Hear, and loud cheers.) In his (Lord Palmerston's) opinion it would be better not to single out Brazil, but to make the address appli cable to every country in the world, and he was sure his Right lion. Fi lend the mover, and his other Hon. Friends around him, would cheerfully support any amendment to that effect, which et..her the Right Hon. Baronet himself (Sir R. Peel ) or any of his supporters on the Treasury benches might think proper to propose.—(Laughter and loud cheers.) Strangers we: e then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion Against it Majority against the motion —73 POST-OFFICE. Mr, HAWES asked when the returns respecting the Post office, which he had moved for, would be laid on the table. Sir G. CLERK said that those which were ready would be produced immediately, and the others as soon as possible. The House then adjourned at a Quarter to One. COURT CIRCULAR. The Queen and Prince Albert walked yesterday morning in the Reval Gardens of Buckingham Palace. His Royal Highness Prince Albert rode out on horseback vest erdaiforenoon, attended by Sir Edward Bowater, Equerry In Waiting. Their Royal Highnesses the Prince of Wales and the Princess Royal were taken an airing yesterday in the Royal Gardens. Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Cambridge honoured Sir William Newton with a sitting on3Vednesday last, for his picture of the marriage of her Majesty and Prince Albert. M. de Hummelaucr transacted business yesterday, at the office of the Beard of Trade. Mr. Higham, Secretary and Comptroller-General to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, had an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, at his official residence, in Downing -street. The Ecclesiastical Commission for England had a meeting yesterday afternoon at the office in Whitehall-place. The Commissioners present were—the Bishop of Winchester, the Bishop of Bangor, the Bishop of Chester, the Bishop of Exeter, the Bishop of Hereford, the Bishop of Lichfield, the Bishop of Peterborough, the Bishop of Rochester, the Earl of Besborough, the Right Hon. 11. Hobhouse, and the Dean of Westminster. The Solicitor-General transacted business yesterday, at the Home-office. Lord Adolphus Fitzclarence left town yesterday, on a risit to the Duke of Beaufort, at his seat, Badminton, Glouee,lter shi re. THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION. ' At the usual meeting of the National Association, held at their Hall, High Holborn, on Tuesday last, the following resolutions were unanimously agreed to; pro posed by Mr. H. Mitchell, seconded by Mr. W. Lovett. .Ist..--That Mr. O'Connell having stated in his de fence on his - late. trial, that " The Charter purposed a violation of all property," he well -knowing (from being one of the Committee who drew up the Charter) that such statement was false and utterly devoid of founda tion, this Association is of opin i o n that su ch conduct is deserving' the severest reprehension. ')d.—That while it expresses its cordial sympathy with the people of Ireland in their manirold oppressions, it-cannot but regret that Mr. O'Connell, while advo cating the redress of Irish wrongs, should step out of his , way to throw falsehood and calumny on principles .by which' it-is sought to remedy the common wrongs of all, 'ay the extension of the franchise to all.