The Sun. — London, England, 1845-05-27 00:00:00

CYDrisc oll tha l ope- a ;eTe (0 0 red to fill red D e be b aa that more ;ed a bemiel" 4 • that til l ryt for 1100 ;lad to see tion fro 'essioos 660. 0 : lenoo t°l in tbe s er peri oo t i t ioo P e of onbil d count/ tehreeadtelmiroaspedrity the last r n in Mar7 --------- chester, when prices had been low and , therefore, that their Lordships would allow the measure to be for labour almost unprecedented. And yet, from read a second time. quartet and deaths of the Registrar-General of marriages, births, ' The Bishop of LINCOLN said he was not about to offer quarter it rhaad fo , he found that the average number of deaths in that any opposition to the Noble and Learned Lord, but has ing quarter of a year was 1,612, but in the last been one of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to whom he had risen to 1,934. Any measures for improving referred, he was desirous to snake a few observations. lie fthoreestahheautobryt condition of the people of this district, he there- entirely agreed with the Noble Lord, that one of the principal al'Pointet would not be complete unless some persons were questions involved in the Bill was, hew the convenience of the tO ask ° fill the capacity of officers of health. He wished public would be promoted by it, and trusted that its machinery regulatio whethermencheate the Companies applying for Bills to supply would be so constructed, that persons requiri n g a probate r with water would be subject to any future sanatory would not be put to greater expense or inconvenience than The i „le o ! which Parliament might hereafter establish. under the present system. In one clause of the Bill, which arliament were being th roug h t y , m of BUCCLEUCH replied that the Bills going was very different from the one recommended by the Ecclesi introduce watched, and clauses were astical Commission in 1842, the power of excommunication %i on . _,,„ into them suecting them to the future rovi- was giv nto the Court, to be established under the Bill. Did large 4 to Parliament, for improving the sanatory conditions of th - t ; invest a lay court with a power like this ? towns The Duke o f All matrimonial as well as divorce cases were to be referred co unt er ~, RICHMOND regretted to hear so sad an ac- to other courts. Marriage was of . diyine origin, .ha.ving reli the ,3., manchester, and thought it would be much better for gion for its foundation. and was binding by a civil contract, jestnCorn-law League to try and effect some improvement, so that such powers ought not to be invested in any but a spi ftZT setting the men against the masters. ritual sweet. the ' , ot arquis of NORMA.NBY did not know whether it was Lord BROUGHAM thought that the objection, or rather matte s boof the Anti-Corn-law League to interfere in this the doubts, which were entertained by the Right Rev. Prelate c h est. ;t this he did know, that the Corporation of Man- would be found on a little consideration to be without founda "ils the v p e e 7 • taking efficient means for removing some of the tiou. He would submit it to his own judgment-the best petitioners complained of. judgment he could submit it to-his own mind. If they had A NO PUBLIC PETITIONS. a good foundation they would meet with due attention in the Mary, N I " LORD presented a petition from the parish of St. Committee. When he was in office in 1832 he framed a Bill atai... eottin.gham, signed by six thousand of the inhabitants, on this subject, with some alterations from a report which had 1,1,4,4.0:team clauses of the Inclosure of Lands Bill, at pre- been made to him. It was divided into six parts, and was Lord'bet e their teA L Lordships, brought in by Dr. Lushington and Sir Herbert Jenner Fust, presbyter THORPE presented three petitions from the but from the excitement caused by the Reform Bill in that lie en s", vry of Selkirk, and other places in Scotland, against the session nothing was done with respect to it. In 1833 it was A'.1,%11g40f toll bars (as we understood) in Scotland. found impossible to pursue the measure, and in 1834, Lincohinsh Lon) presented several petitions from places in from the changes which took place in the admi- L ord 1/4„.ire, against the grant to Maynooth. nistration of affairs, th were not proceeded with. the 4/ ' TANLEY presented several • • for d • t W'tlrespect to tl eobjection raised by the Right Rev. Prelate petitions an against i 1 1 tsr.,aYrtooth grant. '''''CLE as to the court being invested with the power of excommuni- SIASTICAL COURTS CONSOLIDATION cation, he thought no man was better able to discharge his L° rd r CO BILL. duties as one of the members of this lay tribunal than Dr. %mud 1 ' ' TEN HAM rose, pursuant to notice, to move the Lushington. The late Sir W. Scott, afterwards Lord Stowell, NI. readi ng _, , 01 the Ecclesiastical Courts Consolidation administered such affairs; but then the Right Rev. Prelate t heir if f t nis had been the first time on vi 'jell retouched his hypothesis, and said "of lay origin." Excom th mnrd s hi ►e ju r i m. Ps had been called upon to set aside munication, though it sounded very large, . and not very tenn is* &suction of Ecclesiastical Courts, and to adopt a poral, yet was purely so in its object, and was like outlawry, pe course of ', It i t , proceeding in regard to them. He should have compelling a person to put in an appearance. .The spiritual olit lathe his duty to enter at large into the subject, jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts was vested in the Bishop fore was a subject which had been so often be- of London and the Archbishop of Canterbury, the first of eelhauste.ir Lordship's House, that it was almost whom appointed the Vicar-General, and the other the Dean of Z'well ti "„ And he should not, therefore feel compelled to the Arches, and a greater anomaly, or one more offen ottld Cu it at great length. He thought their Lordships sive to sound principle than this, did not exist. It ad Is of ° Pinion tak• • • 'cl t• o the re orts which had always been so treated ; and he knew, from a n_ een mad , mg into cons' era i n , p . . 4 `°31.1 c o eon the matter in another House, and the communication he had with the two Right Reverend eierniaie romissions that had sat upon it, that he would be Prelates in 1833, that they were perfectly willing that this ee PossihV 50 „,u0d discretion in taking up as little of their time anomaly should vested ut an end to, and the power of appointing t"" th e r ''' this seas also the more necessary, as the result o f the two judges in the Crown, but they required that erfeet e - ports and commissions on the subject bad been a the Crown should take upon itself the duty of prov . ichng the fore, opeeirrence in the object which the present Bill sought. different judicial officers and judges of . the Admiralty and Wished touh°wever, he should state the remedies which he Arches Courts. He had felt it to be his duty to state these n al t/ he : led to the state of things with which he found objections to the Bill, and it only remained for him to hope uder w h ich 'sued to relieve the case from the disadvantage that they would be removed when the Bill was committed. trod._ 1C ,_,_ 0 . • ti ttee 7ed b y ~ :.0 laboured from the circumstance of being in- . .The Earl of . its • rd h, a nd ”':,* In 1836, a Committee had sat upon the civil contract, but a thing of iv d me h a •ordinance, and so far there. Th sr eally the the Bill at present before their Lordships was fore as matrimony was con . cerne it advisable e 1 E n I • t . 1 C urts thith e e toieht s ame as had been settled by that Committee. to disturb the present juriscuction . of the cc ems ica . o l . hew - was e tt ,7 some details which would require alteration, He objected to that part of the Bill which would abolish local 1 Pras e emus t Pos ed t ed to de . o present it in the same state. .He would diocesan courts for the registration of wills, because he thought 1 Whe ther ° aPPIY• tail the grievances, and the remedies be pro- it mould entail . ex the poor man while it benefited the expense '1 poor a will in London, but Wif e ) a m an In questions of matrimony-a question rich. A rich man could easily inspect all " were r and a woman (who was supposed to be his a poor man could not accomplish this so easily. ease s eall 3 , . eali r h t i too, , eh r lnarned, these courts had jurisdiction. . In Lord CAMPBELL said there could be no doubt the pre- Ptrti e Yo f 'hare e e there was a question of the validity . or in- sent state , of the ecclesiastical courts was highly objectionable. eia . 1 theto 'age, and on the various relations by which the It was allowed that the Churchhad nothing to do with the e esti% selv es ratio. s (d e e • were affected, as well as their children-in probate of . wills or with actions for defamation of character, or c a ll jetio n 'Tee; and of a ntensa et thorn, these courts had 'with the revision of tithes, or with brawling in chur.ch thZ", Upo u ', ' l nc:Aber important matter upon which they were yards, b u t yet the Church had the power of appoint for ',"Y o eer ' ° , decid e , was wills. Although they had no au- ing the j u dge s who tried these cases. But the Noble Earl id th rears, an freehold property, they had over leases and terms who had just sat down had alluded to matrimony. Now he W as ugh no i..... an questions which arose out of them. So that perfectly agreed with the Noble Earl that marriage was seomee m r ttate r i ii "mediate effect as erceived, freehold property thing more than a mil contract ; but sti t at was . no ras n etter s e"Y affected by their jurisdiction. Theme were other why matrimonial disputes should not be settled an a civil court. etlee e 14 le ss i .._ . . kat , rued t ,importan ce but which in their results greatly The only real objection . - he had heard urged against the Bill h 'era o f .ne public interest-he meant leg ad tith e aeies, was the necessity that existed for local eourts; but as astral refe oce as i onett , and church-rates. The latter, particularly, not think it was possible that the functions of an eccles itwas, therefore, in tioerrred to th great dispates in the country, all of which we ye local court could be properly performe d, „• 1 ,, meri w ese Courts. They also extended their jurisdic, dispensably necessary that there should be one great centre ,-"querrei_inal cas es -defamation of character, cases of incest- court. tesoli Wh y ' and broils in churchyards. Now there was no The LORD CHANCELLOR said he should be acting in -1,1 Court tuthese offences should be punished by an Ecclesias- consistently if he did not support the second reading, because with7t_irtheuct.w ore than any other. But the greatest fault he found the Bill agreed in principle with one brought forward by the ity Qpno : ()the variety of their jurisdiction and the impos- Government in 1843. did not rtlu,' 4l Y for f kn owing, when a grievance had occurred, where After a few words from Lord ABINGE R I which tone redress. B th f h E 1 • fleet Corn- reach the gallery, the Bill was read a second tune. erei sed .es th ere we Y e report ot e cc ems Pe rt Jurisdt t• re 386 of these Courts. Some of them ex- CALICO PRINT WORKS BILL. ;so e ion over all ecclesiastical matters ; some only in This Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a sml hie o ver T h remet_o probates of wills ; others over the appointment second time on Friday. l a e re w e °, of those who were administrators to estates. RAILWAY CLAUSES CONSOLIDATION (SCOT eal9ateei 'we 70 of them who were judges over manors, and LAND) BILL. h ee t edy of „„„e an unfortunate couple were living together, the The amended Scotch Railway Clauses Consolidation Bill fiZ, the n Z n° t, marriage was called in question, the case came was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on siti; a 'aus that 1 _ohere was such a subdivision of ecclesiastical Friday next. . %t at 08 Wa s eligible till Friday aof those who w ' the more subordinate Their Lordships then adjourned next. ere filling . the not to be to et e atest diti The multiplicity of the courts was one of ®HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 26. 11 0 - eertai culties which existed, for the great point was RAILWAY BILLS. Wer 4 where the ' •• • had the Mr. PARKER said there was an absolute necessity for the N et of adi o di eati _junsdlction lay-what court Itrehmu'ajorit„„ ng- The consequence . of this was, that the discovering some mode by which the labour of the Committees s oh , elsh ee 3 of cases were brought into the court of the might be . abbreviated,and by which they might be put in a mode by which tle had been i st ig n e of th r ut Canterbury. The Noble Lord then instanced better position than on the . . y . _ dri s g state e f ° cases of d'ffi Iwhichoccurredunder the ex- hitherto guided. Hon. Committees 1 cu ty eet i ell int o t ,.. the laws. Now, four-fifths of these cases were their labours were somewhat of the greatest, when seventeen line, traffic evidence L i is ease he Prerogative Court of Canterbury. The great or eighteen days were consumed on each t i s r . obt a t o s'' of Probates of wills was, that even if the parties taking up a five days' consideration, evidence as engineering . Is e -i a; -a d Probates f will hadadministered to the much more, and clauses, with counsel's speeches on either side, loe and if o the and e et , ged , afterwards it was found out that M. morefilling upthe re . 1 1 ,; : ° , 11 th ` ° , the estate somewhere else, the whole of the trans. public duty should be imposed upon the Members of the House t rak ultme t - t a had previously taken place were void. That, sitting on Committees. twei tee s l ;i -e "' "a s a great inconvenience. In cases also 01 After a few words from Mr. DARBY, k ne ouncrihWhere the last party on whom the trust devolved Captain MANGLES said he thought the House ought tie:ll4lga bee? will proved in a wrong jurisdiction, the whole to well and seriously consider the whole object be t. legislated upon a subject of such importance. h efi tee% ame void. Now this state of things, and other ore they . desirable that her Majesty's Go tt e r e th e . end inconveniences, would be remedied if the Bill He thought it would be most . fele% 1r Lord h*passed into law. The difficulties t, tit er 8 ips were vernment should take up the subject, and give the whole the th at ere so . great, the inconveniences were so severely weight of their influence on a question upon which Hon. Mem- Wer e eourt trt r ies were obliged to have recourse exclusively to bers so materially differed. Al wi z .- not °` , the Archbishop of Canterbury. But they After some observations from Mr. EISTWISLE and Lord it t - ttiou Il te even there. The probate under this EIRINGTON, ' hit: set 11 2,, not void, but voidable ; and, until Mr. STUART WORTLEY said he thought that every v et ' -as the ii:"°e, it asavailable.(He r hear.) Bill which would be hereafter brought forward ought to be ta e lt " / r init u lt7 as th w ia sto - d bt (Hear, was oe subject to such regulations as Parliament might think fit. Go 9everY C,', 'heir % ' ami l e t e w n r w to do away vernment ought to bring in some comprehensive measure on MO), bay,,• ...1. 0 , le iere ore proposed. pl a ; e e tWay w lplOne r r h 4 Shipg would not be surprised that - the subjectsubject of railways. recommended that they should be Mr. COLLETTrailways. wished to know whether it would be a anal ettit y to the T regard to wills, .there was no oer sessional or a standin ordcr 2 , had 1 e aS eertaj o d be kept, and still more, there . was . . aLord . HOWICK thought that it would be better to make it thatdi est, or „,„ what testamentary disposition an indivi- a sessional order, as it would at afuture 'oat th '''ehlti e "" Were his ersonil representatives. As consideration of the House.. 'new e aeverais Wer e Mr. GLADSTONE said that he thought it would be . im so munch felt itno matter of wonder elf ed th c ora , was . ossible not to have some difference, but most of the railways jentio bon olittees and Commissioners had recom- p . kW aga P held w i th ll of all these inferior courts. The same had improved the accommodation of the third-class trains. • • a horiti o lu it , 1E3 3 respect to the Diocesan courts. In 1832, The . resolution, as amended, was then agreed to. . %N e i,'" of th Commissioners had recommended the t Sir GEORGE GREY presented a peon agains the r esel ! it husi e Diocesan South-Western Extension Railway Bill, and praying to be herurm ! e a , to courts, as there was not heard by counsel. ; H oes ot a , engage them. In that same year a On the motion of Mr. SPOONER, the third reading of eased "e o f p,. similar kind had passed the ha he mat Ho "ament. In 1 836 a similar resolution had t e e h Ch ster and Holyhead Railway Bill was postponed to h a ne le use; and again in Wednesday next. ry H o or e., Mr. COLLETT moved, That it be an instruction to the and e ,,„ e rras pro,,commons for a similar purpose. In Selig- r' NC' uhieh eat "u that there had been no suit for three years,the Norwich and Brandon Railway Deviation, toll * es rn d er and No • h andDi Committeesan d on joer , ham Branches Bill, that they hear parties sec eoe . it ,no business Norwich there was, at the time the re "'Meted • whatever. This matter had been ou . the petition of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the the setae _ , a _ in the reortof 1 ' notwithstandingthe same was not t h e Borough of Kings Lynn, . ad roi "P tion to establish 4 lnstratio„ one general Court in London for presented . three clear days before the day appointed for the u t good one " 0 f.„,,a 1 1 effects under testamentary documents first meeti ANJOU the Committee.-Agreed to. IN good d r , - with respect to the objection that this RNMENT OF THE HOUSE. %M ee met i n - a way with all local jurisdiction,he b On the motion that the House at its rising adjourn to Wed its -4 ; a. • u ne dio must o - so Is la L . cese, from Penzance to Exeter, was 120 nesday next, th e the ea ul eolu, he believedthat the distance s not House adjourn to Thurs- Mr. COLLETT moved that . the . . . th aenue ca ses n, much less, was . , day next. Her Majesty's Ministers would entertain their ,„„_ e bill would in ess. He proposed to adopt precisely Pteed !--oold he proving a will as was now used, only that friends to-morrow. The Derby day would be the day after, - Ne e , °, hem, sent to the central Court in London. and he saw no reason why Members should not be at liberty kept „ h e we _ sent to the diocesan Court. The enly dif- to attend i . „ uta 4 t ee ° , the W: !flake was, that the original will should be Captain PE A C H Am hoped HELL seconded the motion. the Hon. Gentleman would not the io n of all gtstrar of the Court fourteen days, for the Sir J. GR . IN th e n that a , t uose who might have a right to inspect it, press the motion, it would certainly be a very bad precedent. With respect th e e _ C NI of it should be taken, as was now taken, for the House to sanction. Hon. Members were at liberty to rork %pe at 7riginal should be returned to the executors. attend or not, as they . pleased, but to accede to a motion that seam. all th e 1 ° the Prerogative Court ofthe Archbishopof the House should not sit on a particular . day, because there was u tted ! C oturoitteef a race, would be unbecoming the dignity of the House. at opt, Cowttuesses, %verse from 1832 . to 183 . 6, save of tie that f Mr. COLLETT bad no objection to forego the motion, pro 1, er,The whole all unanimous in the abolition o vided Hon. Gentlemen on the other side agreed not to make r il e , i N 'ourt, and with amounted to this, that there should . be House on the Derby day. Otherwise he would certainly e'ottd oe e(1. T he respect tc, small property relief might a p n „ . _, , t o , . re would then be one central Court in Press the motion to a division. tet s it 'theit wulch from the • b • kept there an POOR-LAWS. % ;Uteri' would be • copies investigating eing Sir G. GREY wished to ask whether it was the intention 1 , k , _ dig be given of the tee s:4lld as th e r"'it , ns of property in all future time. into of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite to introduce further amend tetne h e ill jurisdiction over wills orgranting probates , it Poor-law Act, as, according to the merits the present sie tt etrthe r o...centred in this • 1 There • also report of the Poor-law Commissioners, which gave full infer -4114141 co "Ns Which it s . ing e court. were found to melon on the subject, several clauses in it were be kI. ,„. tirt, as for i was improper to confide to an ecele articularly inoperative. he p a i, , e , he se teg:ciesnatance in the ameist of leacies under P Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he could assure the it : 4: 9 th e interferencelnsome particular instances could no d t Right Hon. Gentleman that he had received the Report asp ect isinessitftWould be better, o th therefore,e Courte at once o e f e C e e h Chancery, r r y a le , s a f n er of the Poor-law 11Comniss . ioners about . a fortnight ago, and Ikei,to chum the ecclesiastical courts that court. With quite agreed with him in his earnest desire to amend the law. !!s sit ,„_ l ' e s , r'teherates, he proposed to class them with the RAILWAY BUSINESS. tiII I ZLIS, o r "'re was eve y h 1 t t Mr. LA BOUCHERE said that the subject to which he th ` 4 4 i t w °therwise, for rmaemeryin appea o quer er wished to call the attention of the House was the present state k t th ., t o „as eroe _ se , their recovery.. .With respect . to er M ee , me c4 - . s. y. a to transfer all jurisdiction respecting railway of the business before the House. It was unnecessary th 'ags h posed Chancery • and with respect to all penal for him to go at anylength intothe state ?es e eou tt i e p ro posed to transfer ' • •tribunals • was a matter of notoriety that the amount and the delay of )1 4 14 e tioe of ry. S uchWasae them f to the itil cl a v e il dth railway business was, without exception, unparalleled in any a eited e d for a of men against outline o the set of 1, but is was foreign State. There had been presented to the House during , A s the general another .. men, . was the course of the present session no fewer than 240 railway J e. ,O th e 4 early aslBl2 benefit, In .wh . u . sh all parties were l i iige s , thre e Chief he found Sir William Scott, together Bits, 119 of which had received the approbation of the i ßoard. None of these Bills had as yet passed through the 11_ oreaeoticurrin in ustice . s and . four of the most eminent p i'_ r il e a i g this view. The same feeling . House, and it showed what an immense mass of railway legisla -7,, etl , 1 843 u Holy opinions of all the Committeesthey: had to struggle with. In the year 1828 and 1831 lion now Ii th e rsose was it that he was thus en- circumstances of a the House adopted a certain course under circumstances - hi o had - e aerYin this Bill through the House e far less aggravating description than . this. The House resolved _ te, bat brought g ßill these objects the. to pass resolutions to enable Committees to receive the minutes ; t r i M a _u_ greet diffi a l . to effect ththat into . of evidence taken before former Committees, in order to save ,414),1,phe Bill i cu ties had occurred at . a time in repetition of the expense and trouble h le e uh th e nto effect. It was said that it would do . the parties concerned a th 4 t 1k,°, 1 th e e rshops' courts, and therefore destroy the dig • they had already gone through. He would venture to which . Gentleman li whether it would net be thettit'uought shops' This was unquestionably a difficulty, suggest to the Right Hon.. 1829. Many Bills in which the e disci e lii sh that it was not for him to meet it. He thought better to do as was done in % hit Ph ° P s ought to it themselves,andprovide for parties concerned had expended a great deal of money, would I feet °llt tll ne °f their meet Pass through Committees of the House, but at so i ll -ti ttl e Eti s h o ,„ s own clergy. Year after year passed by P that it would be utterly impossible for the other House o ll f Par n4agitilatroden,jectsv. e At oLu n rr t T i g th in the measure in a te m nd e e e d ser to e Bement to take tbern into consideration. He e w t o b u e ld d c e a rise u t ro t n e l s !, 11 4 *1 which however they concurred , and them to consider whether some means should n law until qf % it . o, 10 , ever, dill not become to the public ei the sliest C that from the time the report of the facilitate the business, anti thereby do benefit both . e re rn_ts ornmissioners was made, until the passing and the parties concerned. It was of the greatest Importance bike Note, ure to intended should be to all parties interested that whatever was , which he alluded, ' all tilt agent Atiutted, no , . announced without delay, that all might know what li e ; o f th Plan having been in force for the proper I I Ike, he nad e _ clergy. In the early part of the session of 11to take, and not be left to mere conjecture.- they wou t . have . he Right Hon. Gentle fe k i ,„ e f ou A .vl.lOllB illness and h he turned to the The question which he had to put to t -°t e, V hie:v s ' t hat matters ' in wen re Bill man was whether he was prepared now to announce to the t atei t ePpy t° - " r ° ll leht in were such a state that any have House any intention her Majesty's Government might _ ita ud r 'ee the matter would not be carried. He was, there come to in consequence of the state of the railway business of Nl of et'iced that taken . up by the present the Gover- come House ? And if he was not so prepared, whether or not he 5 ,,, s e ,. km __ _tn. 1843 a Bill was brought into the would be prepared at no distant period? ah ll , e) i 7 e ,.110 Pe : l : s u e s:, He would not stop to inquire why that Sir G. CLERK said that the question was of great im- C o alli ed t f wlth no h u ; t _Another attempt was made in 1814, • it had not escaped the attention of her Majesty's 4 t t tlht it 1. ' 341 brin • r t r fate. In the present year he had portance, an) . but he could not say that it was intended to o o „er t o l efts wnt in forward this measure, because he Government , any measure to the house at present. But no th.ter n „._eav e it . ols province to interfere, and thought it propose w o uld be the consequence of delaying any pro ii-7 tlie!!t hay inante the hands of the Government, but the inconvenience for four or five weeks. The two in -4 ', IR , :i d not , tanced in the other House of Parliament Position upon the subject the Hon. Gentleman had referred, took place e ko c i , nsi d Pres ent b _e9d to bring in any Bill for that purpose stances to which circumstances. They were both cases 11 do eyed th at "sum. Finding, then, this to be the case, under very peculiar dissolution of Parliament-in * s ir j so a ,,,, ~ when he couli best effect this ob'ect he which arose from the sudden . . in 1831, under ld•dsla' m° uad therefore • i ' 182 , 1 b the demise of the Sovereign , and, . rip it ip s. I brought the present Bill before -, y• te rfer t had been The object of the question aer e t tht, e with the • n opposed, on the ground that • it circumstances of a peculiar kind. and it of ed i opp e ,i t . e private interests of certain localities. was properly understood by her Majesty's Government, for the u the • um Must be ex • • ld b dul attended to, but there was no precedent tilts stli kr . 11 4Ort pected ; but, if all public men wou e y leCtler er "ent h ~ aoce of the msasure and if the Houses course which was now suggested. h -u ihi -4 th a " expressed their 'RUSSELL aid the Right Hon. Gentleman was t er ttr at at i t approval of it, and . Lord . J. . J s precedent for the suggestion of k th at lots of would go far to amend the right in saying there was no he eie th e state of business was tk 4 ,. , P u b ic Jastice, he should not expect to his Right Hon. Hon. Friend. But t hear.) II 1o ed that the :le n " %mi l , "'m should be goodalso without a precedent -( Hear, e i p • ill only eit did prevented from obtaining a ee ea to r Y• If ' not suitne the announce mtlt - these_ Parliament persons in certain localities • • in Right Hon. Gentleman would not postpone et itteer44 ail were to were to he influenced b . y such mo- ment of his intentions for so long a term as six weeks. eteb et. editaLle _ discountenance the Bill, it would Supposing the Bills should pass that House, in time be an end il k . la e t , °Use of 1. ; He had no wish to exclude Members to pass the House of Lords, there would evr foil : ephlithe subject; p ar He from expressing their that by de senti- to the matter for this session. But if partiess destroy t hOC I ti l l kr B i n"l 'Quid hon the contrary, he considered that laying the Bills which they opposed, they could h them gh t •s e fr e treated with respect ; but if they were altogether, or make it necessary to go throug Pew „ it w mu priv t all the expense or shifts ot t i .see oul i i e , ,a e, and not from public interests, he over again next year, they would stop at no expense ed . 14. 1 iott t r l e astir e , u. hi ghlY derogatory to Parliament not to to procure the delay.-(Hear, hear.) He agre wi .th the te tot e . at the He trusted thatßight Hon. Baronet that the subject required great attention, - t i tle ":, gi • measure if their Lord s were of , R 1 Lo p the .o._their notion a proper one, they would not , I b t he hoed that its im importance would induce the Government u • it thatattention .P • h d 1 th tl 74 t rZtt ow who_ sanction, without any apprehension as i to give , ___ s with out . e ay. _ s th is ?f all th. "?t might create out of doors. It was I Lord G. SOINIER ET explained that the subject o w twhich sit e ras . e eminent I the Noble Lord referred had been under the consideration of men bwh 't hdbe 1 a en cons - Intended to do y oment. great good, and be trusted, , th Government. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 27, 184 . Lord HOWICK remarked, that the promoters of Railway Bills were at a loss to know how they were to get on, as many of them despaired of getting their Bills through both Houses this session. If the Government, as he hoped they would see the propriety of doing so, would give an idea of their intentions respecting those measures, a great benefit would accrue. Deft , nite information as to the course Government intended to take respecting Railway Bills that were unable to be carried through both Houses this session, would remove a great deal of difficulty. Sir JOHN WALSH wished to know from the Right Hon. Member for the City of London (Lord J. Russell) in regard to the resolutions he meant to propose, whether it was his in tention to move them altogether or separately? He asked this question, as the resolutions were quite distinct in the princi ples which they sot forth. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Gentleman had better wait till the close of his speech. Captain PECHELL said, that on Feiday last he had put a question to the Hun. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury, respecting the conveyance of the mail to the Scilly blonds, and for copies of the correspondence which had passed between Mr. Aueustus Smith and the Post-office authorities. Mr. CARDWELL answered that the papers were in the hands of the printer. In answer to Mr. MANGLES, Lord JOCELYN replied that all the returns :applied for were in the hands of the printers. MR. O'DRISCOLL. their children.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore, I say at once, that if any person tells me that he thinks the subject of the condition and subsistence of the people unconnected with their education and instruction, my answer is—that so far from their being unconnected, they cannot be separated, and that you cannot take a general and comprehensive view of the situation of the people without taking within that view both means for their physical comfort, and means for their religious, moral, and literary instruction.—(Cheers. ) In looking at the con dition of the people, I do not wish to go over details which must be familiar to most Members of this House, with respect to the wages on which a great portion of the people of this country subsist. It is well known that, in many counties in England—in many of the agricultural counties—the wages are not more than 7s. or as. a week. That has been stated repeatedly, arid when I asked gentlemen connected with these counties whether that is so—whether such was the amount of wages the labourers earned—they answered that undoubtedly such was the fact—such is the condition of the labouring classes in these counties.—( Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, if that be a fact, I need not say what privations it implies_ what evil it signifies --and what an insufficient means of pro viding for the comfort of the labourers. Neither need I go into details, in order to show that the dwellings of the labourers in many of the counties are totally insufficient for their ac commodation—that families are crowded together without any regard to the rules of decency—that many members of a family are obliged to sleep in the same room—and that neither health nor comfort is consulted in the stru g gle which becomes necessa r y, i n or d er to reta i n a room for which they can afford to pay.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") But, Sir, there are general considerations which, it appears to me, we ought to take into account, and which involve a retro spect for a very considerable period of time. lam now, there fore, going to trace the changes which took place in a long course of years ; going back to periods of the last century be fore the French Revolution. At that time we had a debt of about 250,000,0001., and between 14,000,0001. and 15,000,000/. was the sum then necessary for the interest of that debt and other expenses. There was then a poor rate amounting to 1 2,500,000/., and the practice of pay. inn the allowance to labourers out of the poor-rate, was then altogether unknown to this country. In the course of the war which England carried on in 1793, various changes took place —changes, in my opinion, much for the worse, as regards the situation of the people—changes, the effects of which, I think, we are still suffering under, and which have, from time to time, been brought under the notice of this House. In the first place, we have an immense increase of our debt, and a proportionate increase of our taxation. That increase of debt was, in my mind, made in the most ex travagant manner. Many of the loans were contracted in such a manner that more than 6 per sent. was paid for interest, and that not reducible, but remaining to the future. Sums were borrowed in the Three per Cents., a s in 1797, when 2001. was given, besides other advantages, to the lender of 1001. So that it appeared, by the table at the end of Mr, M'Culloch's late work on taxation (the last edition), that the sum of 400,000,000/., which we borrowed during the war, entailed upon us the interest of a debt of more than 21,000,0001.—thus obliging us to pay more than 5 per cent. interest. When, in the beginning of the last century, debts were contracted in times of war, the interest which was necessarily engaged to be paid at the time and subsequently was capable of reduction, so that Sir Robert Walpole (during the long peace, begun in 1713), during his administration, was able to reduce the interest on the debt, by about half the total of the amount which it was at the end of the war. That course has riot been possible with any Ministry of this country, considering the mode in which the debt of the l as t war was con t rac t e d . ' We have, therefore, in considering the taxation, to recollect that the payment of the interest on this debt is guaranteed by public faith, and that it is out of our power to alter it. The whole amount to which we could alter the expenditure consists between the amplest and the most narrow expenditure consist ent with a peace establishment, which is about 3,000,000/. ( Hear.) At the same time, in speaking of the subject of taxa tion, I think I should not omit to state that we have been able from time to time to abolish or diminish taxes which were laid on the necessaries of life ; such as the tax on leather, salt, and candles, which have been entirely done away with. If any one will look at the complaints of the weight of taxation in the last century, they . will see that tax (the interest of the debt) pointed out as a tax most injurious to the interests of the country. Still the power which we have in one way or another, whether by direct or indirect taxation, to bear this great amount of interest for the debt was an obligation from which we could not escape, and any one who examines the proposal ma d e b y the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government this year for this com mutation of taxation—a relief of taxation by taking it from those things upon which it presses with the greatest severity and imposing it on those things which he and the House con sidered would be less felt—a change by which it was believed taxation would press less heavily on the industry and resources of the country. Another subject upon which great alterations have been made is that of currency, alluding to which the Right Hen. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) last year called it the fatal measure of 1797. The tendency of that measure was greatly to degrade the labouring classes.—( Hear, hear. ) I say, the tendency of that measure went t o diminish the wages of labour. These wages were neither increased in proportion to the rise which took place, nor to the rise which occurred in the value of money. At the same time that depression of the general currency of the country led to effects which such de pressi rn has always produced—that extravagant mode of living —that sudden employment of high profits—that neglect of frugality and vigilance which those engaged in agriculture or in trade practise in ordinary times, and which neglect and exitement produce lasting evils in the country. Ido not see that in this respect we can make any great change in the con dition of the labourer—at least to his advantage. I believe that the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman in 1819, and the Bill proposed last year, are founded on sound principles, and without discussing what was their necessity or their adaptation to the particular time in which they were brought forward, I believe it would be the greatest misfor tune if the House would endeavour to depart materially from the principles sanctioned by these measures. At the same time I think we must always remember that these measures in themselves produce their evils—that they have disadvantages accompanying them—that they produced a contracted cur rency which followed the measure of 1819, and at the time created great evils, amongst others injury to the industrious classes which lasted for a considerable time. But now, Sir, I come to another subject upon which I think Parliament may legislate, and with benefit—to overturn as they have the enormous currency legislation of the war period—l alludef to the policy of restriction and monopoly. If any one speaks of that policy—of the policy of monopoly and restriction, or, as ie is flatteringly termed, " protection to native industry," he c r oaky of it as of an anuiont ostablishment, as a matter becom_ interwoven with the laws of the country, and therefore ex tremely difficult to touch. But, Sir, let us go a little furth er , arid look at what has been a c t ua lly th e case. We shall find that the chief monopoly or restriction which now exists was intro duced by men who are still living—by persons who are still in Parliament—by those who, although not now in the direction of public affairs, still remain among us, and whose acts we must therefore consider as the acts of our own time. I allude to the system of restriction and monopoly, which was, in the time of Adam Smith, called the mercantile system ; and Adam Smith, in speaking of the restriction introduced by the corn-laws, says he believes that those restrictions in favour of the monopoly of particular trades were introduced by persons who were used to the narrow spirit of corporations—that from cor porations it became common to traders, and was by them adopted in the Legislature of the country—that the country gentlemen, whose nature was, generally speaking, generous, and alien to such partial restrictions; w ere induced to adopt this policy, of little val ue to them, but supposed to be bene ficial, because it was so considered by the manufacturer and the merchant. Adam Smith might be, and no doubt was, relating what was conformable to the experience of his own time, but the experience of our time has brought us to an entirely dif ferent state.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) We have a vast export of manufactures, amounting, perhaps, to 50,000,000/. ; our manufacturers sell their goods at all the markets of the world ; but they consider monopoly and re striction is of no use to them, and they are willing to admit the imports of every country on the same terms as they desire their own to be received in foreign countries.—(Hear.) They therefore, have adopt e d generally, with a few exceptions, the theory which Adam Smith and his followers proposed, and which all the political economists adopted—that restriction is mischievous—that it is unwise to favour one class at the ex pense of another, and that such policy is injurious to the labouring classes, above all the classes in the community. Well, Sir, if such be the case, let us look at the history of some of those restrictions. I will look at one which has relation to timber. ( The Noble Lord then quoted extracts from Alt Culloch's Commercial Dictionary, and other books, to show that with a restrictive policy our imports of timber had been greatly diminished, and that trade had been thereby seriously injured, and the same argument applied to wool, against restrictions upon which, 28 the merchants of L on d on pet i t i oned t h e Legislature in 18 be The present Earl Fitz w illi am h a d sa id s uch a course would going back to barbarism. Si r M a thew Ridley said he saw theto ta l other ruin to the the manufacturer puke ef inßi Richmond e p e r proposed Many Com mittee should be appointed to inquire into the matter. duty would causeconsidered en th ti a r t e this system of o fonly the tide pound all engaged in r se e c i l w in ee e d as t u h r e e t , e andin of which Lord the trade. In the report of the Committeehre was a great Malmesbury was chairman, it was stated t de ficiency in the import of 'foreign wool which there alarming. From the benefit import duty on foreign wool. highly desirable that re suited to the English wool-grower, it was were many articles • wool should be admitted, for there . foreign Such was the view that 'those gentlemen entertained. whicha high the last year the duty had couldbe introduced. In the course of his Hon. Friend the been increased, but on the motion of Member for Halifax • the whole duty had been taken off, and interests t s of greater consumption of wool. of English manufacture into which nothing but foreign wool the result had been a mach first eight exported months of this year greatly exceeded the quantity last year, and the British wool grower obtained a better . price one of many instances of The woollen manufactures exported during the first eight for his articles. I mention this as the beneficial effects arising from the abolition of high duties I am desirous of maintaining , viz., that those laws which would impose on the people un necessaryof late years, and it is an instance of the proposition which operated in restricting labour • uted. prin ciples cannot be disp It is impossible to deny, that if price onwhat a duty caused a higher taxes. I think that proposition . on general .the poor man was less able to purchase imposed those duties educate his children , and was most clothes and food, and to buy it necessarily imposed a duty on their labour. If they among a which is still prevalent considerable party in thi s _ n that it is right to give p ro t ect i on to certa i n likely to be dissatisfied wi th his condition. There is an opinion country who maintain articles, and that it is right to protect the industry of the think be abolished. I strictions of a protective n ature should country. On the other hAanird., vittitanisscontendedin e t x h p at res a s l i l en re e - f it necessary that one or the other of these opinio ns s h ou ld b e acted on, or let us imit ate be • protection should given to every branch of stal . unsound. For my in dustry, or abandon hold it as false and unsound. I should be sorry to own part, his policy t on the subject, as it has been pr enter into an argument the principle as false and r es than en h t m e y let should th e h moreover, abstract question , Parliament as no a matter on which, as an _ Ido not think Parliament should say you by the greatest writers on the ,subject ; and it is , oves° right to interfere. ostacle to ol. ; market, any m the dearest; but every man ought to bo in tell you to go to market which he liked best—( a condition to go to that hear)—and, if there wa • terfere ; but if it was his • h wis to exchange his Legislature in ' ins in any market for the advantage of labour or his productit must go to the cheapest was any what business had the Legislature to in terferehimself and family, say you shall not f make that exchange —you shall and not go to any person innoat o t i i • i e sr g e n se co e untryand make that f exchange you shall f the produce of in at way you pl ease ? B ut t h is your own labour it i t theory, which is perfectly unsound i n is not only an abstract itself, but is • o pposed to the common sense of mankind ; and it is a theory on which many mistakes have ar i sen . Th e Ministry, in 1842,., proposed a great alteration on the subject. articles Iterations in many immediately connected They were a with the produce of the manual labourers of this country. But madedifferent manner, with these alterations were in a totally f these persons , and with regard to others. respect to some o There were many persons greatly offended at reatly the great extent d their measures. 1, myself, as a Member to which they carried on knew of many individuals who were in for the City of Lend a frenzy at the prospect of their trade being redu ce d. There who said that the ropes would be made were the rope - makers, in Russia, if a low duty were put upon the raw mat er i a l. There were the corkeutters , the and boot shoemakers, who were all much inflamed at the free-trade plans introduced by the ' Right on H ourable Baronet. There were men who were amount, averaging from 15s. to 255. per earning a certain Mr. ROSS wished to know whether it was true what had been stated about the conduct of Mr. O'Driscoll, a magistrate, at a recent trial at Skibboreen. It was reported that that gentleman had made use, on the bench, of the fo lowing ex pression—" By God, I don't understand these populanit)-hunt ing magistrates." If that were true, the matter ought to be inquired into, and taking also his general conduct into con sideration, it would be a question whether he ought to be suf fered to remain any longer on the bench. Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE said he saw an account of what the Hon. Gentleman had alluded to, in the public news papers. He was not, however, prepared to give any information on the subject, but he would communicate with the Lord Chancellor as to an inquiry into the matter. Lord EBRINGTON said that Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House were not inclined to dispute that Mr. O'Driscoll had on a previous occasion been very properly dismissed. The excuse which was then given for his dismissal was, that from the infirmities of his age, and not of his temper, he was inca pable of continuing his dutie'. He thought that dismissal ought to have taught him a lesson to preserve a better guard over his temper. Dr. BOWRING would wish to know whether the negotia tion that had been going on between the Post-office autho rities of this country and Sweden, that had been for some time discontinued, had been renewed. Mr. CARDWELL said he was not aware that any proposi tion had been made for renewing the correspondence. INSANE CRIMINALS IN SCOTLAD. Mr. ELLICE begged to call the attention of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department, to the case of a person who had lately been convicted of murder in Scotland. It appeared that the man was found to be insane, and was acquitted of the charge of murder on that account ; but notwithstanding that, the unhappy man had been refused ad mittance into any lunatic asylum, and he was now in a state of raging madness. The Hon. Member then read a letter he had received, stating that the man was in a dying state, yet there was no accommodation for him in the prison in which he was confined—namely, that of Cupar, in Fife. Sir J. GRAHAM . said ke was aware that this was indeed a melancholy case ; but, unfortunately, by the law of Scot land, the man could not be removed from Scotland. By the same law, no public lunatic asylum could be compelled to take him in, and no private one would. The man was at present in prison, where he was to remain during the Queen's pleasure, and could not be removed ; but all proper eare should be taken of him, and further than that he (Sir J. Graham) could not interfere. Mr. ELLICE could only state to the House what his in formant had told to him. He said that there was a ward in the first Penitentiary in which lunatics could be received. Mr. ESCOTT wished to put a question to the Noble Lord ( Lord Jocelyn) in relation to a case which involved great in dividual hardship, as well as an important general question. He wished to ask whether any Government return had been received from Bombay, referring to the ease of Lieutenant Collins, who had been tried by a court-martial in that Presi dency, and illegally dismissed the service of the East India Company—whether the Court of Directors and the Noble Lord did not think that if this decision were illegal—if it were unjust, full reparation might not be made to the individual who had been so dismissed by this illegal sentence ? Lord JOCELYN said that, by the last dispatches received some weeks since, it was determined on that the case of Lieutenant Collins should be reconsidered. The Government had not since that time received any official information that the subject had been so re-considered, and therefore he was unable to satisfy the Hon. Member on the matter in question. Mr. COLLETT said that, before withdrawing his amend ment, he should wish to be assured that a House would be made on Wednesday.—(Laughter, and " Oh, oh.") If he were not so assured, he should press the House to a division. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but no division took place, the original motion being carried. Mr. CHAPMAN presented a petition against certain clauses in the Merchant Seamen's Act. Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petition from Liverpool on the subject of Lord John Russell's resolutions. The peti tioners stated that some of the resolutions were objectionable, in asmuch as they had no reference to the extension of the franchise. He begged leave to present a petition, signed by three thousand silk handloom weavers in Middleton and its vicinity, expressing their great distress consequent upon the want of a law to protect their labour; and also a petition from the Pro testant Association of Cork, praying the House to withdraw all support to Maynooth College. A petition was then presented from the Wesleyan Metho dists of the county of York, against the use of spirituous liquors. Mr. MILNER GIBSON presented a petition from the working classes of Manchester, complaining of the want of drainage and sewers, and praying for sanatory regulations. Mr. FERRAND presented several petitions, having refe rence to the resolutions of Lord John Russell ; one from the delegates of artisans in Nottingham, Derby, and Leicester, complaining of the increase of machine power, by which many of them were thrown out of bread ; also calling the attention of the House to the Fields Garden Bill, and praying for some provision in it which would save them from dying in a union workhouse. Also petitions from the inhabitants of Hartlepool, who complained that they had been deprived of many of their most valuable privileges, amongst others of votes in the election of the Corporation. CONDITION OF Tim LABOURING CLASSES. Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said, Sir, I rise to bring forward a motion of which I have given notice, and which embraces a subject of vast extent, and one of the highest importance. I would despair of being able to bring this question on with any effect, were it not that the subject was one which has occupied much of the public attention for some years past ; and, in bringing it forward now, 1 look for the as sistance of this House, in the consideration and elucidation of those facts and opinions which have been already elicited in re ference to it. For my own part, Ido not profess to have suffi cient confidence in myself to be able to deal with this subject of such great importance as it deserves ; but I perceive, that in regard to it, the Government are not prepared to come forward with any proposition ; that no other Member of this House has taken it into consideration ; and that various views and opinions have been expressed out of doors in regard to the mea sures that the Legislature should deem it proper to adopt, by which to improve the condition of the labouring classes. Sir, I do consider it a matter of great importance, that this House should have before it not only all the information that could be got in reference to any measure which may be Pi:oposed to be adopted for the permanent int provement of the condition of the labouring classes, but also whatever you may be able to learn from the expression of the opinions or persons who have given their attention to the ques tion, and the views which they may have taken of the various plans that may from time tG time have been proposed for the approbation of the public, because while, in my view, some of those propositions may have appeared to be sound, others may appear to have been based upon erroneous views of what should be beneficial for the public interest; and therefore, if not taken up in a determined manner, a measure may be brought before this House that would receive general acqui escence for want of a better, or it may be that such a measure would be presented, on which a negative could not be given with satisfaction, or an affirmative with safety.—(Hear,hear.) Sir, I must here say a few words more as to the intention of this motion. Had I been of opinion that any such measure would be brought forward by her Majesty's Government, I would have taken care not to have done so ; but as things stand at present, when all legislative means of this sort must originate with the Government—when tho present Adminis tration has taken from this House to itself all attempts at legis- lotion, even upon minor importance, and have declared, more over, that whether in office or out, they will be responsible for all measures of legislation which they may pass, affecting the condition of the country. Under these circumstances it would have been idle of me to have taken upon myself to bring before this House any measure of this sort. In my view the reso lutions which I bring forward are closely connected together. I am of opinion that if the Government at the present moment wished to propose a measure useful to the country, and tending to the improvement of the condition of the people, they should consider all the subjects which are mentioned in these reso lutions: An Hon. Baronet addressed to me a question to-night, as if he considered that these resolutions were totally separate and distinct questions. Sir, I think it of importance that the House should have brought before it the whole of this subject, not only that they may consider any one measure in it which they may think proper to adept for the purpose of improving the condition of the labouring classes, but also that we may learn, from the opportunity thus afforded, the opinions of men of experience and weight as to the various plans which have been from time to time proposed for the acceptation of Parlia ment. Whilst, in my opinion, some of those views are per fectly sound, and would tend to improve the condition of the country, there are others which are founded on erroneous principles. Upon mistaken notions of the powers of the Legis lature to promote the happiness of the people, and which, if in dulged in, would lead to consequences entirely different from those anticipated ; my opinion in general is, that you should endeavour to free trade from restrictions—to relieve industry from those trammels which were chiefly placed on it by the Legislature, but that in so doing, owing to the legislation of the past, and owing to the present state of the country, it would be necessary to adopt other measures accompanying those measures far the relief of industry. And at the same time, it is my opinion that the great subject of education and instruc tion ought to form a part of the deliberations of Government, and of the measures brought before the House; and if any gen tleman tells me that this subject seems little connected with those that I have mentioned in these resolutions, and that they are separate and distinct, I beg leave to tell him why I differ from him. I think we cannot expect that any measure proposed for the general education of the people would be attended with success unless we improve the physical condition of the people. Hear.) hay, Sir,that I do not think that men struggling to obtain the subsistence necessary to support life, are able or willing to make those exertions which would be requisite for giving an education to their children. Therefore, generally speaking, I should say that, along with the measure for the improvement of education—assuming that to be your object-- you should endeavour to improve the physical condition of the people.—( Hear, hear.) And, to bring this matter into de tail, I hold in my hand a paper that was signed by Mr. Ash worth in 1840, in which is given a table, showing the earnings and expenditure of four different families, each consisting of a man, his wife, and four children. In the first,' the weekly earnings Here ss. 6d. ; in the second, 10s. 6d.; in the third, 15s. 6d. ; in the fourth, 265. 6d. In the first case, where the earnings were only be. 6d., it would be found that the greater part, in fact nearly the whole of that sum, was consumed in providing bread, flour, oatmeal, and potatoes for these six in dividuals—food which was absolutely necessary for their sub sistence. If I look at the second case, where the earnings are 10s. 6d., I find money expended for soap and candles, clothing, and some further expenditure for other matters which afford revenue to the State. If I turn to the third case, where the earnings are 15s. 6d., I find a consumption of tea and coffee, contributions towards a sick society, thereby show ing a certain degree of prudence and forethought. And when I come to the fourth instance, where the earnings are 265. 6d. for six persons, I there find a further sum of 2s. for clothing, 6d. for education, 6d. for a sick society, and ls. 4cl. for savings.—( Hear, hear.) These details show, as appears to me, that it is only when the condition of the labouring classes is comfortable, that you can expect prudence, at least, the ability which enables them to follow out the dic tates of prudence, and the means of obtaining education for of 50,000 head of cattle was a great benefit to the country. If this be so, then I cannot see any distinction between the impor tation of 50,000 head of cattle, and a million quarters of corn. We do not find that when the price of corn is high, wages correspond with it, as many of the operative classes believe. A Blr. Dent, who had written on the subject, amongst much that was' theoretical and speculative, has given a table of wages in relation to the price of corn, from which I shall read a few extracts to the House. The calculations were made from 1792, and grounded upon a similar estimate to that made by Mr. Malthus, of allowing six pecks of wheat for each labourer. In 1795 the wages of a labourer were Bs. 6d. a-week, and the price of bread 82s. 3d. per quarter. In 1801 wages were from Bs. 6d. to 10s. : price of wheat 118 s. 3d. In 1821 wages were 9s. 6d., price of wheat 535. 6d., being only 6d. less in wages than the highest average in 1821. In 1834 wages were 10s., and wheat 465. 2d. In 1810 wages were 10s., and wheat 665. 4d.; and in 1841 wages were 10s. This will show that the high price of grain is not accompanied by a corresponding high rate of wages. I will now proceed to show the probable effects of the importation of foreign corn. It is my belief that it will not lead to such an excess; of importation as many think, and that although the price of corn may not be so high as it has hitherto been, it will lead to a general improvement in the cultivation of the land, improve the demand for labour, and advance the inte rests of all parties concerned. With regard to what should be adopted instead of the present law, various propositions have been brought forward before the House. In bringing forward my resoluti ms my object is not so much to propose a remedy as to state the true condition of the country. But if I were called upon to propose one, it woulit not be that which I weed, and who were therefore in a state of affluence and wealth One of them told me he was skilled as much as any man in the trade, but with all his exertions he was only able to provide him self with meat for dinner during one day in the week. Such was the case of the persons affected by the measure that had been introduced. 1 will say, that to introduce changes among these men was hardly fair, unless you introduced measures of a corresponding nature among the members of another class, who were represented by Peers of noble descent, covered with honours, having great weight both in and out of Parliament, and who were most powerful to resist the alteration. I have the opinion of Adam Smith as my authority, who stated that he would include one party within the same law of restriction as the other. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the late President of the Board of Trade, has shown the effect of these restrictions, as far as our own manufactures were concerned; and I will take out of his book some instances, which will show how little alarm was to be experienced, when it was most expected. The article of bonnets produced 13,0001. in 1840, and in 1813 and 1844 this amount was reduced to 12,0001. With respect to cork, a duty of 7s. per pound had been imposed on manu factured corks. The duty was reduced to 10s. per pound on the wood, and to Is. per pound on the manufactured corks. The amount of cork had been augmented, and only 2i per cent., in proportion to the raw ma terial, was introduced in a manufactured state. The Noble Lord instanced a few other articles, which, where the duty was high, had been diminished in consumption ; and where, on the contrary, the duty was small, a corres ponding increase had taken place. These returns, continued the Noble Lcrd, show how very reason there was for the manufacturers to be alarmed at the changes which then took place. This showed with respect to all manufactured articles, that we were able to stand in competition with foreign nations, and that nothing was to be dreaded from the skill which foreign manufacturers might exhibit in their fabrication. With respect to foreign manufactures, the duties had been re duced to a gre a t ex t en t. Th e bootmakers and ropemakers were not much considered when it was announced that they would be totally ruined. The right principle remained to be proved. The duties were reduced within that reasonable compass that com petition could enter the field against thorn. I say, then, if this principle is right—if it is right to reduce duties within that compass—let us abandon altogether the principle of the pro tective system, and reduce all duties within that compass. In acting upon this principle with respect to any article of menu facture, if you do not propose to abolish protection with re spect to one article, you will be in a similar position to what you were placed in with regard to the tariff of 1842. If that tariff imposes a duty of 20 per cost. I maintain that it is an extravagant tax. I consider that the principle is altogether false, and we should abandon it as a useless problem of legisla tion. I now come to that great question upon which so much discussion has taken place in the country—l ro'er to the ques • tion of the corn-laws. As I have adverted on this and other subjects—on the striking changes that had taken place during this session of Parliament—l will advert to what has been the policy of the country with respect to them during the last cen tury. There was, as Adam Smith says, a duty in the last cen tury against the importation of foreign corn ; but, as during the greater part of that century this was an exporting country, the people had no great advantage of the lowest price of corn, as the corn sent to foreign parts found the best market ; but towards the latter end of the century, with the increase of the population, it was found necessary to prohibit that exportation. If they had acted on sounder principles that course would not have been adopted. When we became an importing instead of an exporting country, it was considered necessary that the corn. laws should be revised, and to preserve our interests a reasonable protection should be given to oorn. The protection given ex tended to 48s. per quarter, and consisted of a high duty upon all corn under that priee. In 1791 another change took place, and Mr. Pitt said, in the course of the debate on the question, that if a protective duty was put on corn up to 50s. per quarter, it would be quite sufficient; but other opinions prevailed at the time, and the protection was carried up to 545. It was over 505., and that was in effect a prohibitory duty. Such a duty as this is quite different from the present system, and let us sae how the change took place. During the time ef war and the years of scarcity, corn rose to a very high price, and at the same time the currency becoming depreciated, the City gentle men declared that the 545. was not a sufficient price for corn, and they prevailed on Mr. Pitt, in 1804, to raise the price at which protection should cease. In 1815, when depreciation was carried to its greatest extent, it was proposed that instead of 54e., which was the utmost price to which protection was extended, that 80s. should be the price at which protection should commence. I consider that although it might be ne cessary to check for a time the sudden flood of importation, the introduction of that law was as fatal as the measure of 1797. —( Hear.) We have been suffering ever since from the effects of that law. Many years it was considered that this law was not sufficient. The effect ef the price of 80s. was net liked, and another alteration of the whole took place, which it was not necessary to refer to, in 1828, and another scheme of corn legislation was proposed, which had the high authority of Mr. Huskisson. The proposition was, that there should be a high duty imposed when corn was low, but the duty was to be gradually diminished in proportion as the price was increased. I thought it was somewhat desirable on that head. Mr. Canning said, on the introduction of the measure, that at certain times there was a too plentiful supply of corn, and at other times we had been suffering from the want o importation, and he proposed this measure, as it would adapt itself to the price of corn, and tend to give a stated price, and would consult the interest of all parties concerned. I say that it was a plausible scheme • and for my own p ar t I supporte d the Bill; and altogether my opinion was rather in favour of the fixed price. We have bad experience since and I think it has been shown that the system was founded in error, and that it failed in giving a stated price. Even sup posing the general principle is correct, or that there are some particular reasons for imposing duties upon corn, it was very evident that the gradual or sliding scale was not calculated to have the desired effect. It was obvious that the present sys tem, as now carried on in corn, made the entire trade to par take more of the character of a gambling house than the fair dealings of honest merchants, and some had suffered severe losses in their speculations ; and we had experience of this fact within the last few years. According to the returns moved for by the Hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Miles), it appears that the operation of the law, as altered by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, is much the same as the law of 1828. It was shown by those papers that since 1840 as before, the quantity of corn introduced was greatly increased at different times, especially during the three harvest months. In the year 1840 the number of quarters of wheat introduced in the first six months of the year was 876,879 quarters, the quantity during the three harvest months wr.s 1,587,000. In 1841, during the first six months, which was a year of scarcity, 2,750,06 c) quarters ; the three harvest months 2,343,258. In 1842 in the first six months 305,000; in the three harvest months 2,663,160. Thus showing that the tendency of the law was to induce speculators to hold back till they knew the produce of the harvest, in order to derive a benefit from the great rise in price. In the last year the experience of the law was remarkable. In the last year the price of corn was not high, sufficiently high eneugh to enable persons to introduce it into the country in any large amount at remu nerating prices. In February the price of wheat was 535. 3d. per quarter, and the quantity cleared, 2,725 quarters; in March, 565. 3d., the quantity cleared, 3,472 quarters ; and in July, 545., the quantity cleared, 427,623 quarters. The only system that can benefit the consumer, and lead to a stability in the law, will be such as will range the price from 565. to 645. and 665, per quarter. That is the only sufficient price to allow for the importation of corn, but less than that will stop and arrest it. I have the evidence of an assistant poor-law commissioner, who, in a report made at the time of the bad harvest, in 1838, declares that the distress then existing was much aggravated by the high price of the corn, and that a lower rate of price, instead of operating in jnriously, would have much benefited the employers, in enabling them to improve the wages and living of their labourers, or inducing farmers to employ greater exertions in the cultivation of their lands. This report, in addition to the other evidence I have adduced, goes to prove that the pre sent law is opposed not only to all correct commercial prin ciples, bet to the interests of the farmers.—(Cheers.) But I will put another question to the House. Does not this evi dence suggest to you that protection is an evil? Does it not lead you •to behold in it a check to improvement in agricul ture, and an enemy to both landowners and farmers._ (Cheers.) I may refer to-the silk manufacture as an illustra tion of the influence of monopoly. While under the protec tive system during a century and a-half the machinery em ployed was of the most inefficient and imperfect character ; now, under an improved system, it had kept pace in this respect with all the other great branches of manufacturing industry. Se is it with respect to the farmer. The amount ef protection given him only tended to make him an imperfect, slovenly agriculturist, and the way to make him skilful and successful in his important calling was by the re moval of that restrictive system on which he had hitherto leant for support. I hold in my hand the evidence of a gentleman who made a motion in this House in 1830 respecting the sta tistics of the country. That gen tl eman was Mr. Davenport, who said that he had taken great pains to improve the land in his possession, and out of a quantity of land that formerly paid 5001, a year, he received 8001., in consequence of these im provements. That gentleman further stated that a great part of England was covered with weeds, and in a state of waste ; that the leases were fenced in with restrictions, and bolts, and bars, so as to interfere with the free energy of the tenants; that the land was generally occupied by tenants without capital ; men careless how they treated the soil, and the landowners were indifferent so long as they got their rents.—(Hear, hear. ) Te advance agriculture in the way it ought to be advanced, a union of capital, skill, and labour, is required. Such has been already done in manufactures, and the results were well known to all, so will it be in farming, if the same means are employed. Similar causes will produce similar results. No one can doubt but that if foreign growers were allowed to send their produce into this country, it would infuse a now spirit into our agricultural system. It will sharpen our skill and energy, and enlarge our capabilities.—(Cheers.) The present time is most propitious for a change in the system. The commutation of tithes had lately taken place, and a considerable burden taken from off the landed interest, so that now there was every opportunity under a proper state of the law for the employment of capital and the exercise of skill.— ( Hear, hear.) It was complained that owners and occupiers of land were not satisfied with the present system. But let them abandon protection, and they would find their benefit in the improved markets which would be opened up to them. They would find their advantage of being in a rich country, where commerce and manufactures were flourishing, and where employers being enabled to pay better wages for labour, from the improved facilities given them, would thereby cause a great increase in the consumption of agricultural produce.—( Hear. ) But it was said that if corn were made cheap, wages would be reduced. Taking this fact for granted, supposing wages were reduced to a certain amount, still so long as the real wages were not reduced in relation to the price of produce, an advan tage would be gained by the great impetus that would be given to the employment of labour by the change in the law. But if, on the ether hand, wages were not reduced, a great benefit would at once be given to the artisan in enabling him to com mand an increase of the comforts of life; and in either way the labouring classes would be benefited. The Noble. Lord the President of the Board of Trade had said that the introduction proposed in 1840. Yet still it would he a bed duty. In 1840 I proposed a fixed duty of Bs. per quarter. That is more than I would now propose. I would prefer at present 45., 55., or (is. per e.uarter, as preferable to what I then proposed, and as better, in the present state of affairs, than a total repeal cf the whole duty as som e o th er p ar ti es p ro p ose d. A no th e r pro position is to impose a sliding duty of 10s. or Bs. gradually going down to a shilling. Now in comparing these two pro positions my opinion is decidedly in favour of a fixed duty, because I consider a sliding scale necessarily entails a change in the amoent of duty and of price every year.—( Hear, hear. ) If I wore asked whether I consider it desirable to have any duty on can at all I should say, as an abstract principle, No; but I knot the injury likely to accrue from the sudden with drawal of any long- established custom, however pernicious that custom may have been, It may be said, " If you regard it as an evil, why will you not consent to its removal ?" But thus it might also be inquired respecting a man who, during a pro tracted life, has been accustomed to stimulating diet ; no phy sician would advise an immediate change of diet, or prescribe the total abstinence from the regimen, however deleterious. It is in this light that I regard the present restrictions imposed on corn, and yet that there will come a time, as has already arrived for wool, when a total abrogation of duty will be found inevitable and accorded, I for one entertain no doubt; mean while, though I look upon such a course at the present time as premature, and its success equivocal, I think 1 do but consult the best interests of the country in proposing that clause of my • resolutions .—" That this House will take the saidlaws into consideration, with a view to such cautious and deliberate arrangement as may be most beneficial to all classes of her /llejeety's subjects." I now arrive at the next question which I consider materially affecting the condition of the labouring classes of this country, and, in the words of my motion, I assert "that the freedom of industry would be promoted by a careful revision of the law of parochial settlement which now prevails in Eugland and Wales " During the war the system whereby the labourer was assisted in his poverty, or remun er at e d f or his work, was most perni cious ; as the war continued the price of corn rose, and the course pursued was to distribute the effects of the high price over the entire family, instead of increasing the wages, and thus more labour was employed than there was demand for. In 1834 that system was altered, and it has been said that the al teration was injurious, but I will avow my opinion, that if that system had been continued, the labourers of England would have been reduced to pauperism, while the forced and com pulsory clarity of the poor .rate would have scarcely given them the means of subsistence, instead of as under the present system, charity being given in the whole some shape of wages under the superintendence of employers. I will again allude to an authority from which I have more than once quoted to-night. In a report drawn up by Mr. Tuffnell, respecting the working of the poor-law in Kent, with which he was long officially connected, I fied that the amotnt of wages paid in that neighbourhood, during the two years preceding the establishment of the union there, was 6951., and far the two years succeeding, 8101. If such has been the wholesome effect of 'the poor-laws, is it not a false misrepresentation to hold up that law as injurious to the labourer, while in reality nothing could be more beneficial ? ( Hear, hear.) It is now a little more than ten years since that law, as amended, came into operation. The children who were then in a state requiring no immediate employ ment have now grown up—they seek for labour, but unfor tunately that artificial state of labour which characterised our industrial population a few years ago, still inflicts its disas trious consequences on our agriculture, our manufactures, and our eommerce. You have made alterations, but it is net suffi cient to have altered your poorelaws, it is not sufficient that you now standby the principles of that law; temporary and alleviating measures must be sought, must be adopted, to meet the exigen cies of superabundant labour.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the Secretary of State for the Home De- partment, has undertaken to introduce a measure, admitting the proposition that it was a hardship that a man could not transfer his labour to a locality where demand was greater ; but, while assenting to this, he does not agree or propose that five years' industrious employment should give a settlement; yet what can be more rational, more equitable, more just ? ( Hear, hear.) And what is the working, or the effect of the working of the present law of settlement ? A young man mar ries from the agricultural districts, he settles as an artizan at some manufacturing town, gives the district the benefit of his skill, but after ten or twelve years of thriving industry, by some sudden panic in trade, he is deprived of work—he seeks the meats of temporary subsistence from the Union, but is told, tt You must go back to the town whence you originally migrated, and seek that relief we cannot afford you here." That such a system is fraught with evils no one can surely doubt. Colonel WOOD.—Hear, hear. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The Hon. Member for Brecon cheers that expression. He proposes that one year's residence should give a settlement ; 1, however, do not think that a less period than five years would be advisable to establish as a rule. With regard to lesser periods of two or one years, if a relief for tempecary distress were required, it might be beneficially accorded for a few months, even should net the applicant be of long residence in the town, because a great hardship is fre quently entailed on a poor man engaged as an artisan, suddenly and but temporarily distressed, being sent back to his former place of residence, where, losing all employment or prospect of employment, h e becomes a pauper, and eventually losing all moral elevation of character, ceases for ever to be, what under due care he might still have remained—a good and useful member of society.—( Hear, hear.) I now pass to the next branch of my series of resolutions—" That a systematic plan of colonisation would partly relieve those districts of the country where the deficiency of employment has been most injurious to the labourers in husbandry." In adverting to this cuestion, difficult and delicate as I admit it to be, I have made my allusion cautiously, because I conceive that a system of emigration too extensive, or compulsory, would not only be unadvisable, but dangerous. Nevertheless I consider that a voluntary system, carried out with caution and benevo lence, may be made beneficial to the country and the emi grants. I have been told by Mr. Hodges, who for many years represented the county of Kent in this House, that the effect in his parish, of voluntary emigration, has been prodoe• tivo of the greatest advantage to the district, and by intelli gence he bas received from the colonies, of happiness to the parties who embraced it. The p r i ce f or labenr in Canada was 2s. 6d. a day, and in West Canada Bs. and upwards. When men can thus go to a country whose inhabitants speak the same language, and are characterised by the same habits, the emigration is positively advantageous to them. But great care is required in the safe working of this system ; for you must not send out as emigrants men who are unable to bear extreme labour, and the privations to which they are too often subject ; nor must your system be that of indiscriminate assimihtion between parties hitherto unknown. They should go out, not only ac quainted, but connected with each other. In the army and navy you give those officers who choose to accept the offer your Crowe lands on certain favourable terms. Let your emi grants proceed out under those as a bead, and by that arrange ment, and :n such a transaction all parties wi I be the gainers. They will accept your home manufactures, and send you their produce in return.—( Hear, hear.) The next question to which I shall advert is, the important one of education. I will not now enter at length into a subject connected with such vast interests, and which demands such anxious and protracted consideration. That a great advance has been made in the education of the people during these last few years no one can entertain a doubt. Previous to that it was considered that education was general and useful, but an inquiry into its nature proved it nominal, and not the moral, religious instruction which would tend to elevate the charactA- and improve the social condition of the people. I find in a late report of the British and Foreign School Society, in reference to the gaol returns, that in some counties one. third of the population was unable to read ; in Devon, out of 61 only four could either read or write, in Denbighshire one-half, and in other counties the population was even less. Now, Sir, these are statements made in regard to counties in Eng land, but it may be said that although these prisoners are un able to read, yet religious' instruction has been given to them. It may be said that they have received such oral communica tions from clergymen in the gaols, and other ministers of the Gospel, from friends, and from neighbours, that they cannot he said to be in a state of ignorance; and, I must confess, that I can understand those, among whom reading and writing may not be prevalent, yet who, if such pains were taken to teach them religious and moral truths, might, in point of learning, be said to be a far from uninstructed people. What, I may ask the House, was the case in Sussex, some short time ago ? I find, in the same return 1 have already quoted, that out of 171 persons, 141 did not know the Saviour's name; 24 knew his name, but no more ; and only G out of the whole number had received any instruction. Some indeed of them had been, by their own acknowledgment, at places of worship, but when they attended all was darkness and confusion to their minds. Now, Sir, I do say that when you take measures to promote the well-being of the people—when you take measures to re move any restrictions which may press upon the introduction of articles necessary for food--I say that as Christians,:and as le gislators, you should not shut your eyes to this gross state of ignorance. Do not forget that while, in this month of May, there are excellent and pious men meeting day after day, to consider what sums they shall distribute in China, in the South Sea Islands, and in Africa, for the promotion of the Christian faith—do not, I repeat, forget that in the county of Sussex, and in every other county in England, a wretched number of persons, who have felt the lash of the criminal law, are existing in total ignorance of every duty which Christians ougkt to perform. Sir, I cannot entertain a doubt that the House will wish to pass measures to amend this evil ; I cannot entertain a doubt that the present Govern ment would like to see measures passed, with the view of cor recting this alarming evil. True, we are here met by the ob jection, that such measures may jar with certain sectarian jealousies, and interfere with religion, and that yo u c anno t consistently, and in disregard of the religious liberties and rights of conscience, pass any general scheme of education.—(Hear.) But this you can do— you can make a grant to those who apply for it for that pur pose, and thus you can promote and assist to educate the peo.. ple. One plan is to give pupillary teachers to schools through out the country ; another is to endow teachers, and so to en courage small seminaries. And here I must call the attention of the House to what is the present situation 4 schoolmasters. On those men depend much—the important religious education and secular knowledge of the people of this country, and yet there are few of these men who remain satisfied with their sta- tien—few are anxious to return to the situation of teachers. What is the fact? No man would remain a schoolmaster for a longer period than ten years. I have understood that that is the case with regard to the National Schools. I have frequently asked the Secretary of the British and Foreign School Society with regard to it, and he says " We have many clever young men educated in a school in the Borough-road, they go from us and take charge of schools, but people finding that they are worthy of confidence they are tempted away to other more profitable pursuits and lucrative situations and leave to inferior masters charge of their schools." This is a misfortune. They are in consequence of their abilities employed by merchants and manufacturers insi tuations of importance. But not surely more important than those of instructing the children who are to m the men of the country.—( Hear, hear.) It must have struck the observation of every one, that it is the school master who really forms the school, for though one may teach by ch u r r o e t h e c c a e t r e t n i in w , o rd he s , na o n r n n c t e n r tai n m u p n a i r e t a s te of the Bible one idea, de a o ,still r h less one m principle i t a h c a c t o r a d i a l n i l ace nw. Members the ddoctrines hear r f t m h e e Bi are bl e a . s anxious as I am, to second any means for improving the edu cation of the people ; and it cannot be done if we vainly try to impose compulsory regulations, or seek to drive the child to certain schools, let them be established ones or otherwise. Such a mode of education is impracticable, but you can assist the schools founded by Protestants or Dissenters, and by this mode you get rid of the objection I have referred to. Now, with regard to the national schools, it has been stated by the Committee of Education that if they were to give all that would be required for educational purposes, they would require to expend 130,000/. in addition, implying a total expenditure of 400,0001. I still think that the grant you p t h r a op t o i s t e a h f o e ur ldriot le purposes r s t i h , o a s n e s h l s so 7 oo ld ol b . be per increase d m . f e l r thinkthe people of England and Wales, and 1 think that the greater part of that sum should go to the national school ; some part of it might be combined as an assistance to the endowed schools, and the rest might be expended on the other schools throughout the country. And this might very well be paid under the supervision of the Committee of Edu cation oft he Privy Council, and I am of opinion that in that way a large amount of good might be done to the cause of edu cation. This, then, Sir, is the resolution to which I beg the attention, and if I may, the approbation of the House—" that the improvements made of late years in the education of the people as well as its more general diffusion have been seen with satisfaction by this House." I mean not by these words that iltpesple should be instructed in the way proposed by Go- vernment—riot on the principle of exclusive support to the Established Church, but on a principle of separate education for all the denominations into wbish the inhabitants are divided. I have given a very im perfect outline of this measure, which I think ought to be introduced for the purposes of education. I have, in un dertaking to introduce this measure before the House at this time, taken into consideration the improvement which has at this period been effected in our trade—the general and political tranquillity and obedience to the law which prevails over the empire—a tranquillity which obviates the possibility of affirming that it was brought forward to put down clamour or to further any political end.or party object. You ought also to take ad vantage of such a period, and to propose such measures as you may think beneficial to the great mass of the people. I have given you my views of what is the course of policy which I would adopt ; and whether you think free trade, or the prin ciple of protection should maintain the ascendancy, you should not, at least, wait till a time of disturbance or calamity should arrive, before you do something for education. If you do so—and I pretend not to know what measures may arise in that time—it will not be so beneficial as at this time. And let me say one word to those who support the agricultural interests in this House—namely, that the settlement of this question will be most favourable to them. Adopt my resolution ; add to it any further resolution that you may think fit, according to your own principle, and as your own views may dispose you ; but my opinion is, that your laws cannot stand as they now are. The condition of the people requires alteration—not for the purpose of providing directly for their well being, but for the purpose of anfitlc', as far as in y ou li es , f ree d om 'rem th ose res t ra i n ts on food and education which your own legislation has imposed. , The resolution baying been put, Mr. SH A RMAN CRAWFORD rose, and said that the amendment of which he had given notice, oat the first resolution of the Noble Lord the Member for London, had reference to a period long before this time. In the year 1842 a petition had been laid before the House, signed by 3,324,000 of the working classes of the country, praying the House to sake into its consi deration the propriety of extending to them some measure of political right, by an extension of the suffrage. A motion in conformity with the prayer of the petition was brought before the House by the Hon. Member for Finsbury and by himself, but that motion did not meet with the opinions of the House, arid had, in consequence, beets thrown out. The Noble Lord had advocated the principle of the new poor-law, but he de nied that many of the propositions that had been put forward on that subject had met with the assent of the late Government. It was his (Ali. Sharman Crawford's) belief that the object of the New Poor-law was totally to deny to the poor man the right of relief. He believed that the operation of the poor-law was to diminish wages, because the poor man was willing to take any wages rather than submit to the means of subsistence that the law held out to him.—( Hear, hear.) In his opiniou the Poor-law Commissioners ought to be compelled by public opinion to relax the restrictions that were placed upon the poor.—(Hear, hear.) As to the law of settlement, he would not now enter into that question, as he should have an other opportunity of doing so, when be hoped to be enabled to persuade the House not to adopt the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet on that subject. With respect to emigration he was anxious that means should he taken to keep all the able bodied labourers in this country, and he was sure, if the means of the country were properly carried out, that could be easily done.—(Hear.) He thought that 44 millions of acres of arable land would be quite sufficient for that pur pose and for the comfort and existence of the whole population. The great evil of the country was that the poor were driven off the land, and that there was no mode by which the agri cultural labourer could elevate himself from his condition.— ( Hear, hear ) The manufacturing districts were overwhelmed with labourers from the agricultural districts, and that had arisen from the causes he had pointed out. He believed there was no mode by which the House could make itself more popular with the working classes than by respectfully consi dering their petitions which expressed a desire to be properly represented in that House, and to participate iu making the laws which were to govern them. The lion. Member then concluded by moving the following amendment to the Noble Lord the Member for London's resolution : " That the present state of political tranquillity, and the recent revival of trade, afford to this Howe a favourable opportunity to give im mediate attention to the claims so repeatedly urged in the peti tions of the people, for an extension of the Parliamentary suf frage, as well as to consider of such measures as may tend permanently to improve the condition of the labouring classes." Sir J. GRAHAM then rose—With the permfseion of t 1 House he should have wished to have addressed it immediately after the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London had sat down, but as on the first resolution it was his intention to move the previous question, and as the effect of that motile's would have been to have prevented the Hon. Member for Rochdale from moving his amendment, he felt it but right and courteous on his part to give him an opportunity of doing so. After reading the resolutions of the Noble Lord, he confessed that he had come down to the House with great doubt and per plexity as to the course he should pursue, because he felt assured that it would be no slight: task to follow him through the different positions he had laid down ; and if anything were wanting to increase the difficulty, it was the statements of the Honourable Member for Rochdale. Having made these preliminary observations on the difficulty of following the Noble Lord, he felt bound in justice to him to say that any thing more comprehensive, or more worthy of the subject, than the speech of the Noble Lord, he had never heard in that House.—( Hear.) It was totally devoid of any party feeling or any acrimonious assertions. He believed that no subject was more difficult to *Art with than that which related to the improving the condition of the labOur ing classes. Their labour was their only property ; and no subject, therefore, could be more important than their welfare. He trusted that the House would believe' him when he said that he intended to meet the Noble Lord in a spirit totally devoid of party, and a desire, if possible, to benefit the working classes. The Noble Lord had asserted that the present Government had been unmindful of the in terests of the working classes, and that the Member s on that side of the House generally were careless about them. In order to deny that be thought he need only refer to what hid been done by the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire— ( Hear, bear)—and what had been the course pursued by the Government with respect to the measures of the Noble Lord. It was true that some modifications had been made in them, hut their general principles had been approved of by the Go vernment, and no doubt they would ultimately be carried into effect. The Noble Lord had said that the wages of the agricultural labourers of England did not exceed Ss. a week. Now, his information on the subject differed from that of the Noble Lord. He believed that the average was lOs., and that it was somewhat higher than it was a few years ago. In Norfolk, Suffolk, and Lincolnshire, he was certain the average was above lOs He would now follow the Noble Lord through all his resolutions. In the first place, he would address himself to the protecting duties. The first resolution could not be looked upon in any other light than complimentary to the present Government. The second resolution, which was with respect to the protecting duties, he would now proceed to. The great policy of Mr. Huskisson was not the abolition of protection, but a substitution of the protecting duties for the prohibitory einem. Mr. Huskisson was a strenuous advocate of the corn-laws of 1815, and was the principal author of the corn-biw of 1828. He admitted that whilst Mr. Huskisson was the advocate of a protective duty, he was also the author of a gradual de crease of the duty, in proportion to the increase of the population. He asserted that such had been the po licy of the present Government.—( Hear, hear.) He did not wish to weary the House with unnecessary details. But as the Noble Lord had gone so far into them, he must follow for some way. In the first place he must call the attention of the House to how much had been done in the last three years in relieving the productiveclasses from indirect taxation bearing upon their enjoyments. In 1843 and 1644 no less than 6,300,0001. of indirect taxation had been repealed.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time, by means of direct taxation, the deficiency had been removed, the income was raised above the expenditure, and the naval force of the country had been en larged to the amount of 1,000,000/, per annum.—( Hear, hear.) When the present Government came into office, they found 1,152 articles, of almost the first necessity to the working classes, subject to duty. They reduced that number more than one-half. —( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord referred to the anteaedent history of the National Debt, and had stated truly that reductions of the interest had at times served to relieve industry in a considerable degree. But the present Government hat not lost sight of that question. On the contrary they had last year been able to effect an operation of great mag nitude, by'which a a saving of more than a million was obtained. The Noble Lord would excuse him for saying that he was rather amused by the dexterity with which the Noble Lord evaded the responsibility of his own restrictions. He thought that when a member of that House brought forward such a re solution as the Noble Lord's fourth, it was the duty of that Member to move for a Committee of the House togo into the consideration of the question, whether or not the food of the people should be a matter of protection.—( Hear, hear.) That would be the right course, instead of bringing forward so vague that was the t coursehe right taken course,by t a h r e es H ol o u n ti . on irem ( b C e h r ee fo rs r . ) He Wolverhamptonthughtas it went to the question directly. — (C heers.) B ut it was quite clear that the Noble Lord himsel f bad not m ade up his o mind upon his own question. Then he said that the time was gone by for a duty of Bs. a quarter upon corn, and that a duty of 4s. or ss. would be sufficient.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord now repudiated the idea of taxing food for the purpose of raising a revenue, and was willing to admit of a duty for the purpose of protection. But, in fact, as a matter of protection, a fixed duty would be a delusion. Four or five shillings, when prices [were low, would be no :protec tion at all, and when they were high, no Govern ment would be strong enough to preserve the peace •f the country with such a restriction peon the importation of food. He was satisfied that all the speculation which the Noble Lord attributed to the sliding-scale would be as nothing compared to what a fixed duty of bs. would give rise to. The Noble Lord said that the sliding-scale caused fluctua tions of price. He (Sir James Graham) denied that. He thought that absolute fixedness of price could not be attained with the variability of our seasons. a But he wo say that no law could produce less variability than the pr t law. It was very true that a larger amount of foreign corn was brought to market in the three months antecedent to the harvest, than h r t es i u t lt v o er i y v n er a y_ natural speculation.—( Hear, hear.) 1 j back, until holders of corn should keep it they WI any quarter . That, however, tural that the w e as tho th ug e saw what the state of the harvest would be in respect to quin t" the question, but he would absolutely deny that th e tity and quality.—( Hear, hear.) He did not wish to overlay this part o present law produced uncertainty. In the last twelve months, the fluctuations in price had been...considering the nature of the seasons—very small. Since the Ist of January last, to the present time, 57,000 quarters of fo reign corn had been introduced and brought to market at the highest duty of 20s. a quarter. And with respect to barley, he was able to show that nothing could be more equal or advantageous than the present regulation. One million one hundred thousand quarters had been introduced at the highest duty, and notwithstanding that importation, the price had never fallen much below 325., and had not varied more than Is. nr Is. 6d. per quarter. Of 135,000 quarters imported, 131,000 were entered for consumption. New he would ask what wou d the effect be if there had been the uniform duty which the Noble Lord recommended in force, with such harvests as we had had the last two years ?—(Hear.) The Noble Lord said that no impulse had been given to agriculture by protec tion. But the Noble Lord should admit that since the termination of the French war, there had been a great improvement in agriculture, so much so as nearly to keep pace with the wants of a population which had doubled in the mean time.— (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had stated that the increase of the population was nearly miraoulous— that it amounted to 250,000 a year. The Noble Lord under stated the fact, for in the last year the increase had been 370,000. In the last four years no less than 1,500,000 had been added to the population of these narrow islands, whilst the whole amount of the population of Canada was little above 1,000,000. The population of Holland was but 2,800,000, and that of Switzerland not quite 2,100,000. Bet this country, with the conduct of which he ( Sir J. Graham) and his colleagues had been charg ed for the last four years— (Cheers and great laughter)—th population had increased by a number equal to more than two-thirds that of Holland or Switzerland, and beyond that of Canada.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But at the same time the rate of wages had risen, and the prices of all the necessar ies htat of life had diminished.—(Cheers.) But he though o t t _ ... f culturist, which—(whether w_isely ilio o t r a ) they were to do away suddenly g u reat injury upon the quarter of a century, they would in Lord bad said, that measures with the prootteetmt existed e tyri a whole community. The Noble k was it not the fact, that community. But he would should be adopted to improv_e w the_ condition o fall classes of the 0 . 1 , 0 0 4 itt - ju r r to Ref , o, be ot° tl O 10° ce t s b' :01°' 0 a 4 'ta te use•