The Sun. — London, England, 1821-02-06 00:00:00

1 r of Pains and li'enalties was't6 be conside i eed as partly judicial, and partly legislatorial. It in volved two questions. In the first place, it was for Parliament to ascertain if the fact charged were true ; and, in the next, if it were, what they would do upon it.., In Divorce Bills, evi dence Was heard on the second reading of the Bill, the House then pronounced on it,and the pre amble was determined when the Bill came to pass. He had, then, a right to say in the case of her Ma jesty, that if a majority of the House pronounced for the second reading of the• Bill, they pronounc ed on the guilt of the party accused. But it was said on a former night, that the preamble Con tained several allegations, and on some of these the majority might have voted for the second reading of the Bill. He must,however, contend, that tribunal, as far as it could, pronounced the accused guilty. The charge now made was, that his Majesty had not ordered the Queen's name • to be restored to the Liturgy. -But when they H hear d so many complaints on this subject, how was it that none of those who claimed her resto ration, as that to which she was entitled by ac quittal, had as vet called for it from the avowed conviction of her innocence. —(Hear, hear, hear!) - -That some persons might entertain this °pi llion he did not deny, but nothing like an un iversal feeling that she was innocent had I ever been expressed by the opponents of Mi e visters. With respect to the manner in which the Parliament had been prorogued, he had to remark - that that House having postponed taking up the subject till it could be seen what w as judged proper to be done in the other, had Only met from time to time for that purpose. It was understood that the- business of the Session N ; as at an end, unless the Bill of Pains and e-enalties came down from the other House. The Are ulhers, therefore, had only assembled to know t he . result, an d th a t ascer t a ined—the Bill hay lag been abandoned, • it had not been ex- Pected that any thing- would be done. If in the opinion of the House his Majesty's Mini sters had so acted as to forfeit its confidence and s upport, then in God's name let it pronounce that opinion decisively. But if on the other hand it was held that they had consulted and up held the true honour of the Crown, and that they had not been insensible either to the beet int rests of the country ;—if it appeared that they had been drawn on step by step - in the late pro ceedings owing entirely to the peculiarity of the c ircumstances which accompanied those proceed ings, and not from any pertinacity of their own; it appeared that they had been actuated by I ' o feelings of private interest ;—if looking at the whole tenor of their conduct, the Ilouse was not disposed to attribute to it improper motives, then l i t was impossibl e th a t it cou ld in honour and in jw uesty, consent to pass that censure which it Was the object of the present motion to convey. (Cheers.) • Wurrmoßt conceived that it was the duty of every man to stand forward upon a question Which so deeply affeeted the vital interests o the country as that which was now before t • Rouse. He would explain to the House his . Mews , of the late proceedings as concisely as pos ..,Bilde, and also the grounds upon which he should e ee-t etes er en....a. for the motion of 1113 Nohk riend. It had been admitted that nothing but ' lt )r case of th e s t rongest necess i ty cou ld j ust if y t h e hi n ging forward of such measures. It remained eei w s to determine whether such necessity had Wasll' -And the first question that arose was, th e , - Morality of the country likely to be im asif,re, by such a course as had been pursued ? c i ja ' Was known in this country of the reports . rcie l 7 ate(' abroad respecting her Majesty, was as v ° !' li ,ug in comparison to that which exercised its • 11 fulloence when diffused in all quarters by those the a mong rnorai t..he feeling, heard proceedi ngs . M uc h, i n d ee d, had been svlieTe ci s rc e l r e l s in ; g I b ro u r t- ih n o ot f e natio n higeh tl r te t was to .be found. He was aware That some 'would say, that the Queen had forced herself into the country, and rendered the measures necessary to be adopted against her. lie would rather say that she had been forced to , come into the country. He said so', because she , nad been placed in a situation which left lier'no Choice. Was it nothing that her. 'lame had been excluded •from the Liturgy ? Was it nothing that I . l _‘'r just rights h a d not been recognized ? \Vas it C ourts, that the B r iti s h M inisters, i n F ore i gn Z. v . '„ a Q urts, were desired no t to recogn i ze h er as ueen of E ng l a nd ? s H e was of opin i on t h at s h e s so completely driven into the country, ec a ,.. l- she had no alternative left but that of h r°wledgin g the crimes imputed to her—of p assed to the sentence which had been s ei ; se d tipoti her—(for he contended that sen li ce bad been passed) or of coming instantly "° tl e c l a 'e country to face her accusers. She as ;eyedt the latter, and the proceedings were Politi e l ; TY commenced. And - if they were inis of se e themselves, surely the circumstances birth ` ° "itry, at the period which gave them - w e e ' k w "-lptild make them doubly so. It was weieh wn that the same unhappy distress e e m e N eet s- "Pon the people at that time as at the d and that the irritation which now af t • p ee , be publi c m ind, h a d then the same exist - ee ee sv as that a moment at which to give a s Prine to \Ve en every thing that was bad in the nation ? m e a miserable faction, low and desperate in s,tus.elves, were labouring to overthrow the Con stitution ;" endeavouring to accomplish their dia • hea llc ,a l ends by reviling religiou—(Hears hear,. (Hear r ) --- hy insulting, the lawful authorities— Ston, hear, hear !)---aud by every species of the t N u . nlely and abuse towards them, expressed.in that caricatures and pamphlets—(Cheers)— . w ' i lt i na.. a moment to afford them fresh pretexts, n they had already too much ground to work 1 13 " ? With regard to the Bill of Pains and nal ties, lie did no t preten d to any d epth o f kle "cle(le,e in the constitutional laws of the "untry, but he did think that if any proceeding t a l t e , a , il were 'necessary, th ey s h ou ld h ave pursued Of Impeachment, For Blackstone had laid -ow n terest , th a t any offence committed against th e in -1r..e,0f th e St a t e or of the people, was liable to 1F F: -cle ment , He mentioned this to show that (ase. of the Queen had been taken out of the constitutional mode o f proceeding in cases corn 1g Within th e a b ove descriptioU. The Hon. NNtnher then referred, t the opinions of Sir William Temple, delivered upon the case of Sir J. Fenwick, in support of his argument against the adoption of the 13111 of Pains and Penalties. , lie thought that Hon. Gentlemen opposite talked rather slightingly of the people of England. What ever confidence Ministers might have in the majo rity of that House, and in the aristocracy.of the country, they did not possess the confidence of the country. lie had observed this in his immediate neighbourhood and at meetings which had. taken place in other Parts of the country. Ministers would do well to examine whether those meet ings did not express the real feelings of the na (ion. He considered himself justified in shying that the sentiments of the people were decidedly hostile to the present Administration. Thii was not a time for creating divisions between the higher and lower classes ; and no one could view any attempt of such'a nature without deeming it most perilous and appalling. He feared that the proceedings of ,the Session were not, hitherto, calculated to increase the confidence which that House ought to receive from the people. He should say, " be careful that the people see the heart of this House beating in unison with the pulse of the nation—of the vigorous and health ful part- r —of the best feelings o the nation." He certainly thought that her Majesty was now en titled to all her rights and privileges, as fully as if no proceedings had obtained.. The law re quired it, justice required it, and policy demand ed it. What he had stated to the House he had not felt as a party man, for he had been always unconnected with any party whateVer. He had been induced to feel as-lie did, and to state what hie had stated, by the sole conviction that the country was in a state of utmost alarm ; and that the policy which ought to be adopted to wards the people was that of conciliation. . . Mr. BANKS considered that not only. the opi nions of the Hon. Gentleman Who just sat down, but also the tone and manner in which they had been delivered, were justly entitled to all the at tention which the House had paid them. On the topics which came within the consideration of the House, it was impossible to expect a perfect uni son of sentiment. He had viewed the proceedings in which the country had been lately engaged with a sensation of the deepest shame, at a time when there was - so much on hands, when our do mestic policy required so much attention, when there were so many important affairs, some of which had been so ably alluded to in the latter part of the Hon. Gentleman's speech. When our national debt, agricultural distress, and our foreign policy, were all pressing us; when we turn our eyes to the south of Europe, and see the things that are going forward ; in fact, whether we consider our foreign or domestic affairs, it is really shameful that we should be dragged into such discussions, and rendered unable to attend to them.—(Hear, hear.)—But - as . it became necessary that the House should . came to some definite termination, he hoped the House, would excuse him for stating briefly the sentiments that should regulate the vote he would giva to-night. The lion. Mover and Se conder have brought forward accusations against the Ministers, not for the purpose (as they fairly state) of. regnlating_tho conduct of those who succeed us—not with any theoretic views---bat as a real practical - question: Now in order to ,justify the necessity of the motion, one of two thins must be, made out---either incapacity to conduct the affairs of the country, or some act of delinquency which renders them unfit to be in trusted with the Management of them. lie should endeavour to distinguish these two points as clearly as he could. It is extremely easy to cen sure and find fault with a measure after it is. done; and in most•cases it is not difficult to dis cover- some better made of proceeding, if begiu ning again. He (Mr. Bankes) was not Contented with the beginning, the conducting, or the termination of these proceedings, and now they are over, and if beginning again, ire should find it most difficult to say which was the best plan of proceeding. These opinions, such as they were, were his own, and he should lay them fairly before the House. But it was peculiarly hard to censure men, now when an affair is ter minated, and when it is difficult to say if begin ning again, what course ; would be the wisest to pursue. And would it be endured, When these rumours proceeded from ell quarters, not from Milan alone, : but from every spot where the Queen visited, would it be proper, when those reports were promulgated and generally known, that the_ Queen should be received in this coun try as if her character were like that of the., former Queen, and was there any thing in the proposition that had been made to her that should meet with such contempt ? Had not the House reason to believe that it was such a pro position as would be accepted ? Were they not submitting something like the proposition that had been made to them on her part? The Right. Hon. Alember then adverted to the proposition _with which her Majesty's law officer (Mr. , Brougham, we presume) had been intrusted. As far as the case had gone, it appears that Ministers had done all they could to avert what they con sidered an evil,.namely, the coming of her Ma jesty. to this.country. This message was deliver ed to her Majesty's law officer, who thought fit to go charged with it. We are told this Com missioner, this Ambassador, never delivered his credentials; and her Majesty never really did know what herown confidential agent had been charged with. But that Gentleman stated, that a time would come when he should explain his conduct.. He- (Mr. Bankes) thought that, mak ing all clue allowances, that time might now be fairly presumed to arrive ;. be thought the pe riod was now arrived when that Honourable and Learned Gentleman might 'favour the House with some, explanation on . the sub ject. Under all these circumstances, be thought, it was , too hard to say that Ministers did not, front the beginning, shew some disposition to avert those evils. The matter certainly never came before the .house of Commons;but his own - opinion was, that the mode by impeachment . Would have been the preferable mode. The Honourable Member who had seconded the mo .tion of the Noble Marquess , had gone into a very wide discussion on the, different modes,. of pro . . ceeding ; it ivaS hardly 4c,esiarY t 0 inform the Hon. Member, that Billy of Pains and Penal .ties notthoughi coinininti were yet by nd tbeans unconstittaional, tiffd the • only question here was, • whether the application was proper or not. To talk as sOniii Gentlemen had done, bf trying her Majesty by a Jury of the coun try, was really too absurd. To come to the question itself, 'l=re •Resolution could mean no ' thing Wit an entire change of Administration, being himself inditlerent of what individuals the Administration was composed.—(Hear, hear !)-L-- He should be ready to support any Admhfistra tion, so long as they acted co;.for.nihly to his opinion of right.. The number of persons in this Country who by education and abilities were qua lified to take part in the conduct of affairs, was larger, perhaps, than all Europe besides ; but though' the number was so large, 'the choke of the Sovereign was in practice and effe'ct confined within much narrower bounds. Besides talents and education, the' persons - must possesS other qualifiCatiortS, • and must be known to the pub- lic and td the Sovereign, which could only be the case by being km Parliament. " In the present state of parties (said the Honourable Gentleman,) it is perfectly plain that if you exclude that party, you raise this."— ( Laughter.)--But the lfouse must consider those Gentlemen who were candidates for place, for the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had frankly stated he should not be•averse from office ; and he (Mr. Bara d es) -was one, Of :those who thought that general reflections against place men, were slanders against those•whom the coun try had the greatest Obligations to. The House must consider that there was in the country a dangerous faction, not - existing in any great ae gret;, he hoped, in that House.—(l.aughter.)--- lie would repeat there was a desperate faction -in the country, which was endeavouring to ex tend itself, by catching hold of every topic of discontent, as a means to promote that confla gration in 'which they wished to involve the country. Many Gentlemen of one of the. parties of which he was speaking had given con fidence to that party by attending public meetings. There might not be any direct understanding, but there was a sort of co operation which alarmed him exceedingly. - (A laugh and cheers.)—lt was no matter of merriment ; it was matter of deep concern to him ; and, if the gentlemen opposed to Ministers should come into power (thinking well of their in tegrity and honour), he believed they would re deem the pledges ivhich they hAil given; and on that account he must be excused from giving them his 'confidence. Ile remembered .that some time since, on the occasion of passing two. Bills in that House, one of which was for regulating public meetings, and the other fr:r putting some restraint on the licentiousness of the press, he found those gentle:nen the active opponents of those Bills.— (Hear, hear 1)-Both those subjects were causes of considerable alarm, and what was called the liberty of the Press, but what he Called its licentiousness, were particularly so, as he thought he could gee it at the bottom of all the present confusions, and any gentleman who come forward to oppose regulations so essential could not have his support. One lion. Member, whose'candour he , - honoureci,-SEtid, he supported the' present motion, because it Must produce a Reforni in Pal-Ham:tat, and the Gentlemen op posed to his Majesty's Ministers were pledged to yo note (if not universal suffrage) some large and comprehensive Refortis of Parliament. That was another- of their plans which in the present circumstances' of the country made him view with alarm their entrance iisto office. If they should come into office they would have a Governmt:nt distinctly pledged to what was called Catholic Emancipation.. Under, a di vided Cabinet—(hear, -hear')--they had •strug— gled out of that question, he did not inquire whether creditably or not, bitt the question was steered oir.—(Upar, hear, hear I)—But •11•Juld they have a Government pledged to that question, it must be. opened afresh. The Gentlemen on the other-side (Mr. Banker. spoke froM - the Opposition side of the House) had carried on affairs in a manner which gene rally had his. support ; and in the long war in which we were - engaged he had seen them perse vering with spirit, and calling into actions all the resources of the country, while their opponents were desponding and discoura..ed. Under their auspices a most rigorous war was crowned by the most glorious . peace which the annals of this country could show for the last four centuries. 7--- Seeing these things, it was impossible for him to any thing 'but vote against the motion of the -Noble Lord. Sir J. Mict:mosli rose, in . consequence of what had fallen from the last Speaker ; but did not intend to examine into his consistency or im partiality for the last forty years. Neither should lie inquire into the panegyric which he had passed upon one party (and which must have been peculiarly grateful to the - Noble Lord, who had been so entirely unused to it of late), while censure had Ilow•ed'so abundantly upon the other from that impartial Gentleman.—(A langh.)— With respect to the French war, notwithstand ing the party with whom he had the honour to act had originally opposed it, yet they had not afterwards refused the supplies necessary for carrying it on. They had not then opened just cause for reprehension, as had been done on a former occasion by the Party opposite. As to . _ the glorious Peace of, which the Honourable Meriiber had spoken, he was not -willing to aloW that it was entirely owing to the- No ble Lord. For the glorious • Peace we were indebted to* our gallant Captains, and the high valour anti .achievements of the Bri tish Army.. The effects of that glorions peace were to be found • in the present state of Eu rope. Ile _ would_ make no other observation upon the glorious peace and the glorious alliance —its offspring ; but that the Noble Lord him self had been obliged to disavow the acts and piinciples of his Allies. lle.had been obliged to say, that such was the nature of their principles as to tend to the destruction of all national inde pendence.. lie hoped that what had been said in the declaration of the Noble Lord would in 'timidate them from proceeding in their present • „i - Out -or the 11-11 - 191 cat one Of Own- own alai's they had been condemned, and heir These were the effeCt of that gloriottS'peace which had be , ,'n J tianegyrii ed by the in partial down the basis :of Ijis he proceeded to give a proof of it, by stathig it to lie. his opinien that (yr part (filly form the Cloyrrunient of the country. That flonOurable, Member said that Ids (Sir lames iliaCkintosh's) friendi -would be oblied to re {Merit their pled!es. What were they ? .1f all, they had attended T rilictoeetings of the people of ii]ngland ; When had this teen charged a4 - ainst MeMbers of . Parlianf(;nt as being entitled! to condenmatiOti ? Was it criminal to - miX. with the people, .to ascertain opinions, and to en deavour to reclaim them, if they haik been mis led ? If so; it Meant that the majority of, die Howie of. CM - rat lons had declared ag - Linst the people of England.—(Load criPs of_ " Ord:i"r," with vehement cheering on the Oprosition benches.) Lord c.tsmiutsuar rosé to order. He willed to have the opinion of the Chair, whether, in the most extended exercise of the liberty of expres sion, it was in order with the rules:of Parliament for a Member to say that the majority (5f the , Douse of Commons had declared war' againgt the . people of England. (Load cheering from both sides.) _ _ The SPEAKER said there could be only one opinion in the_ Raise as to the nature of the words which had been spoken. They were Most highly disorderly. He had confidently expi , cted the Hon. Member tnexphin the words, which were eertainly. most disorderly. Sir J. MacKtsvrosu was proceeding to state, svhenlie was interrupted by -the Noble Lord in explanation of his meaning, that the tendency of the vote of the majority of that House on a re cent occasion, Would he to create a belief that it was at war with the interests of the people. With regard to the meetings of the people, did not Hoti:Gentlemen recollect the meetings at the commencement of the American war ? He helieved the Hon. Member himself (Mr. Bankes) attended them, as well as Sir G. Saville, who Was called to order in that House for much stronger language than he had used. Were not also the Marquis of Rockingham's, Mr. Gren ville's, and other great names fo'u connected With the popular meetings of that period. He supposed the impa'rtial Member entertained his great partiality fox the Bill which went to re strict the liberty of the press, because it had ' been proved to be entirely ineffective. In spite of those Bills, had they not in that very metro polis seen meetings of the people, processions with banners and flags, surpAssing any thing of the kind which had ever before been wit ueSsed Never was there a measure so in eflicient as this, if the House were to believe the Loyal Addresses -which complained of the unbounded prevalence of sedition and libel. But •he now come to the questiou of an effec tive moderate Reform of Parliament, against which the lion. Member for Cur& Castle ex pressed so great a horror ; he was not sure whe ther it was a local or a general horror.—(A laugh.)—The horror with which this proposition was regarded was most danwous e for it, gave the advocates for violent and unconstitutional re form a plea, that all safe reform, —all reform which regarded the establishments of the coml. reform within the pale of the Constita tion,—all moderate, or . as a reverend person (Major Cartwright, of whom ho did not say so -disrespectfully, as he thought him a wor thy man,)_ called it, all mock- reform was equally resisted with that of the most outrageous character. lie had always suspected that this feeling was. at the bottom with all those who were. the- enemies of reform, and that they dreaded most the most safe and reasonable, but he had never heard It lot out so much as •by the Hon. Gentleman. Having, however, dismissed the party, speech of the impartial Menibftr, he would now tern to the question without touch ing on a subject of importance enough to be dis cussed by itself, viz. the expunging her Majesty's name from the Liturgy, which he held to be a high crime and misdemeanour; without saying any thing of the Bill of Pains and Penalties, not only because it had been so eloquently charac terised- by an Hon. Member who had addressed them in the course of the evening-- s (Mr. Whit more), but because his objections lay deeper to . all the proceedings against the Queen. These . proceedines, he asserted, had aggravated all the evils and 7,dangers.of the country ; Ministers, by. instituting them e had shewn a disregard of these things ; by going on with them they had added to the offence, and the House would be driving matters to the_ utmost, if 'they did'not pass this , vote of censure to-night. No Man could doubt that it had produced great evils, and yet he had never heard one word uttered, to shew. its necessity ; and without its paramount ne cessity beine.. ' shown, Ministers could have no., excuse. A Right llononrable Gentleman' (Mr. Bathurst) had indeed take up an argu ment which had been used by his predecessor (Mr. Canning), in losing whom for,a timee the House had lost one - or its brightest ornaments, and alleged that the Queen's . coming to this country bad forced Government to these mea sures. This might be, he contended, a Ministe.; rial necessity, but it was no public necessity ; a. necessity which could only be convincing to those who, like the , Honourable Member for Corffe Castle,' maintaimad that there was only. one set of Ministers in this groat, this enlightened country, who could conduct its affairs. If this were so, then it was an.answer to all charTes against them; it. was a. discovery in politics \stitch would immor talize" the Honourable Gentleman. It was an argument that ,would last for ever and be good for all future Ministers, since there never would, be wanting some honourable and- impartial man to allege that they were the only ,Stetesmen fit to be entrusted with the charge of Government, and that if they were displaced no .ocheis 'be foued to succeed them. . In the face . of this he. declared that no necessity for originating the-pro ceedings against the Queen had ever been shown,. and he called ,for the shadow of an argunient in support of that position. Of all things it had. been did ili:ty of adopt a firm deter., minatioo to prosecute or not to prosecute. If they did not prosecl;te they ought to have ab-• stained from all hisolt a • and vaititheld nothing which they were net absolutely cOaripelled to Will i hold, But liow,had tlieia acted? .TheY were net I here IC 'rraoa anil there ie errart' bet 'they, were ia error in the begiunina, in the riiiddlN and in the'end. They had edinibeaced withadi 13k` e'.o .i --1 S:q"; I l is Hon. Friends.(the Attottiey - and Soli , ! eitOr»Generals), if ctlikti on to preaeente the oh scorest perion for a libel, w);_thl not prOcee'l without AU assurance that they were likely.to be successful. And , the political adVisera of • the Grown might Still more than the legal advisers t 4 have looked to thiS, for their concerns were of much greater impm . tatie, They also were bound If Gentlemen, hdwever, decided in favour of Ministers, whose nhafactera their d*rs friendS allowed were injdred by tioaproceedings against the. Queer, anti who had- citing to place after they- had lost power, all In coUld say was, that he had discharged Lis thity and tli , ist lcave• tli , cansequences to fuslurily. Mr. PEEL (after some conftision.reapee.ting the 'Member who had caught the eve of the. Speakel began by =kilo.; an apology for riiieg after a speaker of c much experience, hut the nattire of, the debate relieved him frhm the necessity of following the cour4 of that Honoera.ble Gentle• man. Baying been absent on ali'occasioni when he could have had en opportunity of deliveriog his sentiments on this qtlestion, and holding • the 'same 'opinion with the majority-Oil-2 f014710' la ven2; Mg, whose decision had been spoken off in Sti , _:li -severe terms by the Hon. Gentleman; he avaa anxious to state the grounds cot c.thich he would has') concurred in voting witlathose who had hi the heat of debate, been designated as having de. , dared war against the people. The expression had, it was trues bee:i afterwards quartied, and he rejoiced that it• had been explained in a avay consikent with the sense of Parliament. lie had a painful, duty to porforin ; but t he was theae fd express his limiest and independent opinion; and- this he would do regardless of any im pression but that on his own mind, ' and without party or Peqonal feelings on the principles of impartial justice. In setting out he would observe, that ho was one who did not concur with Government in the measure of omitting the -Queen's name from the 'Liturgy, and on these grounds, that there was no incoecis , tency in continuing it, and at the same time coming boldly forward• with the charges whi'ch were to be made against her.—(lltara)—Blit neither could he have agreed to the motion of the Noble Lord (A. Hamilton), because it took hold of only an' insulated solitary point, mid hid little or no bearing on the main question ; be; cause it was ill-timed ; la, if made at all; it ought to have been made last Session ; it ought Ito have been made on the 29th of January last year, when the order was issued, and not kept till 'the 26th of January in this.—Why this de- lay ? And also, because it would hate been an act of injustice to visit, that act as a crime in Ministers after the same- Parliament had' dis , thictly' sanctioned it 4 He would, have voted against the - motion too, becatise it was cal culated to redress no wrong ; because it was merely adverse to Government, but no way in ' favour of the Queen. it - was hinted ,j deed that other resolutions were to follow ; _but he said, " let us have direct proceedings, and do hot make so important a motion a'mere corollary td another which can hardly be understood." On --these grounds he would .have toted with the ['ba lmily in the case alluded to. He -Must, howa ever, speak in other terms of the present motien brought forward by another Noble Lord. The manly feeliog and straight forward' manner in which it was framed and brought bgore the House, merited every praise. The, speeches' of the Noble Mover and Seconder plainly avowed their object to be-the removal of Government and an entire change in the Administration,.— This had been coupled with some anticipations of a consequent Reform. He cared not whether it would produce Reform or not. If he thought ' the Government justly chargeable With the vin= dictive spirit attributed to it by the Noble Lord ; or with the corrupt love of office asserted by,the Hon.. Gentleman, he would not lOek beyond to have abstained unless they had a reasonable , assurance of success, after allowing for the ,evi dence of unknown witnesses, and after looking at the temper and circumstances' of the papple.-- All these things they ought. to have , consi dered before they determined. . Again; nothing could be more fatal than change and vacillation ; yet change and vacillation had marked their con duct from beginning to .e.ncl. - A. Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bathurst) had said that there was a necessity, in order to preserve. the morals of the,country a . and built on thee-concurrenee pf the House in the negociations with the Queen. - But the House knew nothics of -the CaSe.wliiCh Ministers had in their, poasession, and it was Mini sters alone.who placed it in that difficulty: and em barrassment. By their proceedings they :had first involved the honour of the Crown ; and they had next induced the House, _ tp its. dishe , nour, to throw itself at the feet of a . sahlect (a thing which had, not been done fcr [.ix•cena tulles) ; , and .all to . palliate their own disho nour. Having got the House - to rolopt this - stPp ; they had no right to blame the Queen for not receiving their advice, They were not her, con stitutional advisers, and she was the sole judge of, what was , for her own honoar and dearest interests. He would next ask,.'what were ;11wir assurances of success,? ,If the Bill had passed the Lords,With tht same, majority whiCh hi had on the second reading, he would declare, from having consulted the,precedents far 200 years back, with the..exceptiml of one (the melancholy one of Sir John •Fenivick, which Woulhardi v• be set up as, an example), there were none with which it would riot be•ridiculous to compare this of her Majesty. In the case AtterMiry, the ,numbers were in..prOportion, of .two tO one and . even in that of Stratford they were es five fp two. But in this, if.continued, as be„had'observed, the same to the end as. on ; the second o . eatling they ; would be beyond the .gioportion necessary to give the cast in a-common jury, on r,-hieh no elltnunil • a liad ever been convieteajeor Farah...lkeda Theki Cella