The Sun. — London, England, 1839-03-09 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION (DEBATE—Continued from our first page.) ment ; but he could, with his Noble and Learned Friend, below him, and the Noble Earl opposite, express his entire confidence, founded upon the character of the Monarch upon the throne of France—founded upon the character of his Ministry—founded upon all the national re lations that had subsisted between this country and France for years, that no little circumstance, however much dwelt upon in this House, or in the other House of Parliament, would have the unfortunate effect of disturbing that which they all anxiously wished in common to remain, viz., a perfect understanding between the two Governments, although the most perfect understanding could not always prevent occasional errors or occasional mistakes from aris ing : but which, when they did arise, would be fairly ex plained on the one side, and cordially and generously re ceived on the other. All they knew at this moment was, that Commodore Douglas had received an exp'a nation which he thought necessary, and the House had there fore no right to presume a priori, as the Noble and Learned Lord opposite seemed to do, that it was unsatisfactory. Undoubtedly they were in a situation to call for further in uiry on the subject, and all he asked was, knowing that Commodore Douglas had been satisfied, that they might be allowed to give time to the French Government to know from their own officers what passed before they were called upon to give an explanation. Lord COLCHESTER was perfectly willing to leave the subject till the French Government could have an op portunity of communicating upon it. He understood the Noble Earl opposite to say there was a sloop of war oppo site V nCruz previous to the time at, and subsequent to the :.track on San Juan de Ulloa. Lord MINTO said that at the time there was—that bvflre the attack was made there was, and that certainly for several days afterwards there was; but the precise num ber of days he could not state without reference to his papers Lord COLCHESTER said he was rioeprep4red to doubt there was a ship of war on the station, but what he understood the Noble Earl to state was that there must have been a sloop of war at Vera Cruz when the attack took place ? occasion, and to repeat more expressions, only substituting the name of Lord Brougham for the name of Lord El don. On the Ist of March, 1824, that case was brought before Parliament, and after stating what had fallen from Lord Eldon in the other Heuse, you said—and what I now ask of you is, to let me say—" what right has Lord Brougham, or any other Judge' to undertake to comment, on the judgment seat, on the debates of this House. Where does Lord Brougham, who is so cautious, find a pre cedent for this ?—( Laughter from the Opposition benches.) How can he say he is not guilty of a gross breach of the privileges of this House ? It is not a formal, but a sub stantial breach—a direct attack on the security and free dom of debate, which is the only legitimate object of pri vilege."—( Cheers.) I can assure the House that I bring forward the question solely on public grounds— ( Hear, hear)—and I should like to see an end put to the language which passes between Members from this House to the . other House, and from the other House to this—( Hear, hear)—because I think the people by-and-bye will begin to find out, and to say, if it is not put a stop to, " a plague o' both your Houses."—( Laughter.) He ( Mr. Bannerman) would quote another authority on this debate, which he might safely use on this occasion. No man more severely censured Lord Eldon than Henry Brougham, and he begged to read part of his speech on the debate to which he alluded. He said, the only de fence set up for the Lord Chancellor was, that there was something in the proceedings on his part as hasty as it was extraordinary.—that his conduct, besides being indecorous to the House, showed a degree of rashness and impatience very unsuitable to his character as a Judge. If persons connected with - the press, or persons inferior in station to the Lord Chansellor, should feel any wish to hold them up to public scorn, he could not conceive how they could allow such a wish to remain ungratified; but if it should be in•lulged in it would be more than ridiculous to arm themselves with the terrors of privilege when they took no means to secure themselves against a repetition of this gross and dangerous attack on the freedom of debate and the independence of so many of the Members of the House.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Mr. Bannerman) concurred in what Henry Brougham had said on that occasion. He should adopt the course which was pursued in 1824, by moving that the Printer of the Times" attend at the bar of this House on Monday next.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. E. ELLICE, jun., said that on a subject of such great importance he was happy to find that one ofmore experience and greater weight than himself had consented to relieve him of a duty which he could hardly have shrunk from, with a due regard to the privileges of this House, and the vindication of his own character. His Hon. Friend had very fully stated the case, but as that report also alluded to himself, he must claim the in dulgence of the House, while he addressed a few words to it. Those who were present when the Bill was brought in to increase the salaries of the Scotch Judges would remem ber what took place on that occasion. In consequence of the physical infirmity of some of the Learned Judges, and the dissatisfaction that existed respecting the manner in which the proceedings were carried on in the Court of Session of Scotland—in conseqnence of the illness of other Learned Judges, by which the business might have been stopped—in consequence of the impossibility of obtaining a quorum of Judges—be thought it his duty to bring those facts under the attention of the House and the Go vernment. In the hurry of the debate be did let fall an expression which was not warranted by the circum stances, and he took the earliest opportunity of retracting that expression ; but if he bad used the term " physical infirmity" instead of " mental imbecility" be should have had nothing to regret further than the regret which must always be occasioned when a man was forced, in the exer cise of a public duty, to make such an allusion to a Judge so universally esteemed and respected. Beyond that hasty expression he did not lament the part he had taken. It was with great pain that he had been obliged to allude to these subjects, which were matter of public notoriety, and until they were proved to be false there could be no confi dence in the public mind, nor the present administration of justice. He repeated this statement in order to disarms the Noble Lord of any pretext for the calumny which he had thrown upon him (Mr. E.), or imputations which were as groundless as any misrepresentations affecting the charac ter of any man which bad before fallen from the same lips. What course the House was prepared to take it was not for him to say ; whether they intended to take any steps in consequence of this attempt to interfere with the right of free discussion, or whether they intended to pass it by, of whatever calumnious abuse he might be the subject— whatever odium he might incur, he should not be deterred in his character of an independent representative of pur suing the course which he thought right, or making those remarks which he thought applicable to any case which might come under the discussion of the House. He did think it necessary, in reply to the false aspersions of the Noble Lord, to say something in defence of his own character. The SPEAKER was about to put the question, when Mr. W YNN suggested that the article should be read, which was done accordingly by the clerk at the table. The SPEAKER having put the question, Sir GEORGE CLERK did not rise to discuss whe ther it was a breach of privilege or not ; he would leave that to be decided by the Speaker. But he complaieed of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, and the Hon. Member for St. Andrews, who had most unwarrantably assailed the character of Lord Glenlee. Did these Hon. Members not know that there were many persons in Scotland anxious for the due administration of justice Colonel DAVIS rose to order. He objected to any discussion being proceeded with as to the character of Scotch Judges, that not being the question before the House. Sir GEORGE CLERK contended that, after the statements that bad been made without interruption on the other side, he was entitled, as a matter of justice, to pro ceed.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The statements made by the Hon. Member opposite bad produced a very great impression in Scotland, inasmuch as they were cal culated to throw doubt and discredit upon the administra tion of justice in that country. These statements would be libellous if used in any other place but that House. The Hon. Baronet then read an extract of a letter he bad received from one of the Scotch Judges, bearing testi mony to the efficient manner in which Lord Glenlee had discharged his duties. The letter stated that Lord Glenlee was deaf, but not more so than he had been for several years.—(Loud cheers.) He regretted that these Honourable Members had not made themselves better acquainted with the circumstances, and he would leave it to the Noble Lord to decide, whether the publica. tion in question was a breach of privilege or not? Lord JOHN RUSSELL was of opinion that the state ment made with respect to two Hon. Members of that House was without justification. He contended that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, on a question upon which the House had undoubtedly a competent right to give an opinion, had a right to state anything which might assist the House in coming to a decision. He stated that one of the Learned Judges of the Scotch Courts wee, as the letter acknowledged, afflicted with the infirmity of deafness.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He ( Lord John Russell) believed that that Learned Judge was a man of great learning—very able and distinguished in science and literature.—( Hear, hear.) Neither the Hon. Gentleman nor any man in that House had denied that, but lie thought that the course of justice might be impeded, owing to the infirmity under which a Learned Judge, 80 years old, laboured. If there was anything wrong in such a statement, he ( Lord John Russell) confessed himself guilty with the Hon. Member—because having heard re ports of the same kind, he had written to the Lord Jus tice Clerk, and had received a most satisfactory answer, assuring him that the business of the Court was well car ried on, and from that time he had not thought it necessary to take any further steps on the subject.—( Hear, hear.) They were told in that newspaper that somebody, in delivering a judgment in which Lord Glenlee's judgment was not called into question, had taken occasion to say that the Judges in Scotland had been falsely, foully, and unjustifiably assailed, and that these false, foul, and unjustifiable accusations, were made in that House, and by Members of that House. Whether the House agreed in the proceedings which had been adopted in 1824 or not, he contended that the Members of that House, on a question affecting the administration of justice, whether in that country, in Scotland, or in Ireland, had a perfect right to state their sentiments, to assist the judgment of that House; and to take advantage of the occasion of pronouncing a judgment—to take advan tage of the judicial gravity which belonged to the delivery of a judgment, in order to impugn, and libel, and ca lumniate, the Members of that House, was, in his opi nion, a very unjustifiable use of the privileges belonging to a Judge. That was the opinion of the Speaker when in 1824 the case of Lord Eldon was brought forward That was a case in which the Noble and Learned Lord, with a very justifiable warmth (for whatever delays or hesi tation might be imputed to him, he was a most learned and conscientious Judge) had resented imputations which were utterly false. Although it might be right to bring the question before the House, yet, with respect to the second question, whether they ought to call to the bar the printer of the newspaper, in order to proceed further in the matter (and iu Lord Eldon's case he had doubts of the propriety of proceeding further ; nor did he remember voting for the motion, notwithstanding the able speech of Mr. Brougham), whether the short-hand writer should be called to the bar, was a matter which if the House de cided in the affirmative, he thought would neither tend to their dignity, nor the reputation of those Judges who sat in the other House. Last year when the Learned Member for Dublin, at some tavern, accused Members of that House of foul and false conduct, he (Lord J. Rus sell) thought as he did now, that Members of that House, when satisfied of the integrity of their own proceedings, would not be acting wisely by resorting to any vindictive proceedings.--( Hear.) He therefore hoped that his Hon. Friend would not persevere in the motion, but at the same time he hoped that the Honourable Member would not be deterred from doing what he considered to be his duty in that House by any unmannerly language and unjust aspersions--( Hear, hear)—and that he would ex press his opinions either with regard to the Scotch Judges or to any other persons in authority freely and unreservedly, convinced that all parties would believe in the purity of his motives and his zeal for the discharge of his duties as a representative of the people in the Commons House of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) Sir ROBERT PEEL said he hoped the Hon. Mem ber for Aberdeen would not take the advice of the Noble Lord, but that he would be careful how he made use of the right which he possessed to call in question the com petency of the Judges who were far absent.--( Hear, hear.) It was admitted in this case that the Judges whose compe tency had been impugned were Judges of the highest in tegrity and of the purest motives.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord opposite had, it appeared, instituted inquiries into the physical abilities of Lord Glenlee, and that the result of that inquiry was perfectly satisfactory. Well, was it at all wonderful that the friends of Lord Glenlee should warmly vindicate him from the imputations which had been cast upon him ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Judges had been made independent of the Crown, and the House of Commons possessed the right of presenting addresses for their removal, but if the House was not dis posed to exercise that right, they should carefully abstain from paralyzing their authority and diminishing their effi ciency, by imputations upon their ability.—( Hear, hear.) The tendency of such proceedings would be to shake the public confidence in the administration of justice. It was Lo . rd MI NT 0--Decidedly. Lord COLA: H ESTER— Well, then, it appeared to him that the proper course to have been taken would have been for the Commander to have made the circumstance known to the Commander of the Satellite, and that he should have gone immediately to Admiral Baudin and demanded such an ex planation as was necessary at the moment. If that course had been pursued, then the House would have been spared all this trouble. But, besides the French Gove, nment ought to have received information of the affair ilamedi a•ely from their Admiral, and that Government oc ;ht to have been prepared by this time to have given the rit , :essary information. Lord LYNDHITRST—Was he to understand fiat, as as the history of the facts he had given was concerned, ey were as he had stated them ? Earl MINTO—So for as the Government cou7 I give any account of them they were as stated—that is, t!.e pilot was taken out of the vessel. With respect to any of the after proceedings, of course it was impossible for them give any other account at present. The Earl of HARDWICKE wished to know ahether the British Consul at Vera Cruz was in possession of the facts. Earl VI INTO was not able to answer the question ; but he had reason to believe that he was not. TheNTarqnisor . CAN SDOWN E laid upon the table, by command of her Majesty, returns of the mortality in the Army.—Adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS, MARem 8. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. Mr. HUME presented a petition from the share holders of the Kilkenny Railway, stating that they had subscribed a capital of 800,0001. to complete their line, and that the Railway projected by the Commissioners would materially interfere with it, and praying the in telference of that House. RAILWAYS (IRELAND). Mr. MACNAAIARA. presented a petition from the Grand Jury of the county of Clare, expressing their readiness to give land gratis for the making of a Railway, and praying that the benefits of railway communication would be extended to that county. . . Mr. MAXWELL presented a petition from Liverpool, stating that the granting of Corpo rations to large tows in Ireland would lead to a repeal of the Union, and praying that, whatever reform might be required in the present Corporations, Protestantism might be preserved in violate. Mr. BEAMISH presented a petition from Cork, praying that the House would take measures to carry the Report of the Irish Railway Commissioners into effect. PORTUGAL. Lord SA NDON wished to ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Department whether the Commission appointed to inquire into the claims of British subjects late in the service of the Queen of Portugal, had made any progress in the duties that were entrusted to them. He also wished to know whether the Commissioners were not constituted of placemen under the Portuguese Go vernment, and whether they did not receive pay from that state ? Lord PALMERSTON said that the labours of the Commission had been suspended in consequence of the undecided state of the question. He believed, however, that recently application had been made to the authorities in Portugal, in order to enable the Commission to resume its duties, and to settle the claims of the different parties. Mr. W. DUNCOMBE begged to ask her Majesty's Attorney-General when it was likely the Bill for the Re gistration of Parliamentary Electors would be committed ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Bill stood for next Monday, but he could not pledge himself that it would then come on, because Supply was very urgent, and his Noble Friend had been several times disappointed in bringing it on. There was no doubt it would be passed through Committee before Easter. Lord DUNGANNON gave notice that, on Monday i next, he would move for certain returns made to the office ; of the General Registrar of Births and Marriages. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE gave notice that, on the first Supply day, he should move a resolution to the effect, That the House having on a former day agreed to a resolution that no greater r, strictions should be placed upon Theatrical entertainments in Westminster than in other parts of the metropolis, her elajesty's Ministers had thought fit to interfere in the free and unfettered discretion of the Legislature by direct io!'' the Lord Chamberlain to restrict the performance of Tlieatrical entertainments in the city of Westminster, and thereby defeat the resolution agreed to by the Commons House of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) OUTRAGES IN CANADA. Me. O'CONNELL begged to ask the Hon. Under. Secretary for the Colonies whether any information had been received by the Government relative to an outrage which had been published in the Conservative papers in Cet ada, and which was stated to have been perpetrated by Col. Prince, namely, that four persons had been murdered in cold blood, after having been in custody a considerable time? Whetherene of these men had not been allowed to run for his life, aed then had been fired at and killed ; and whether another of these men, who had been sent in charge of a (agoon to head quarters, had not been taken from the dragoon by Col. Prince, and shot ? Mr. LA BO LTC HERE would state what information had been received by the Government, but be fore he did so he would caution the House against putting unlimited confidence in statements made by the Canadian papers.—( Hear, hear.) He would read an extract from a despatch sent by Colonel Prince to S.e George Arthur, which was the only information tl ey had with regard to the outrage. Colonel Prince St it,,l that iii an engagement with the brigands end pira•ee twenty-one were killed, besides four who were 1 taken Trisoners, whom he had ordered to be shut, which order w a s accordingly put into execution. no receiving that despatch, Sir George Arthur write to Colonel Prince to require information of every circumstance cenitewed with tae transaction. That information had I not yet been received in this country, and until he re ceiv,d it, the House would feel he ought not to say a siegle wor I.—! Hear, hear.) LORD BROUGHAM—BREACH OF PRIVI LEGE. 1 The B ANNE RM AN said he had to call the attention of the House to a matter of privilege. A discussion had arieen in that House as to the Judges in the Court of Session in Scotland, 'in the course of which he had aluded to one of the Judges of that Court—Lord Glenlee—as being subject to great physical infirmity—as Leing so deafa—that he was obliged to be prompted on the Bench by his brother Judges. He had expressed his regret that ouch a Judge should exercise judicial duties, and his opinion that the Judges in Scotland ought to retire at a certain ,:e at a full salary, and a Bill to that effect had been in ' tc-,:luced by the Lord Advocate. On Tuesday last a fri,- n d bad asked him (Mr. Bannerman) whether he had eeen the castigation which had been bestowed upon him ie the House of Peers. He instantly procured a cepy of the " Times" newspaper, in which he found a Report of ' some observations made by Lord Brougham, after giving jelement in a Scotch appeal case, in which, after stating that he knew Lord Gbenlee to be as strong and as vigorous ie mind as ever, the Noble and Learned Lord concluded by saying, " I have thought it my duty to say this, be cause it is the peculiar privilege of your Lordships to sus tlin and protect the Learned Judges when they are foully, faleele, and unjustifiably attacked." He (Mr. Banner maa) had written to Lord Brougham inquiring if his Lordship meant to apply those epithets " foul, false, and u:justifiable," to him. Lord Brougham wrote in reply, that be would not admit any man living to question him in the discharge of his judicial duties.—( Hear, hear.) Upon till,: he (Mr. Bannerman) had requested his Lordship, if he would not answer as a Judge, to answer as a gentle man ; and that if he (Mr. Bannerman) did not hear from him before Friday he would mention it in the House of Commons. Lord Brougham replied that the Hon Gen tleman must be aware this was but a repetition of the for mer question, which he must decline answering, and as to anything which the Hon. Gentleman might think fit to say in the House of Commons, he must be guided by his own consideration.—( Hear, hear.) The House would see that the Noble and Learned Lord would not cuff r him to question him as a Judge, but he might suffer him to say, that having seen the report not only in the " Times," but in the " Morning Herald" and " Morn leg Advertiser," nearly in the same words, no Lumen bring would believe but that that speech was si oken. The Noble arid Learned Lord alluded to Lord Eldon arid said that if he had been living he would have adopted the same course. Perhaps he might, b cause with all the prudence, caution, and talents of that etni- S2'et Judge, he did on one occasion accuse an Hon. Memb er of this House, and on the judgment seat !Do, of uttering a falsehood.—( Hear, hear, hear.) TL ,t in dividual was the Honourable Gentleman who now filledthe Chair ... o . f this House.—( Cries of " Hear, hear, hear."). He (the Speaker) did not submit to that wcusalM e nor did he (Mr. Bannerman), think it right ,that h e ralioxtit to be accused of making a false skteMpue.. a Calumnious attack.—(Cheers.) The 1 1- 4- *lsisn to pursue (said th e H onoura bl e M em . i :j • to2l34zti3e - -- impressions p,r' ( , essions which were used on that , a. -• .... `- ' . ; iv .%7 very difficult to say what was physical incompetence fort entrusting with political power a constituency of which judicial duties, and such imputations only tended to prevent he knew nothing. If at the expiration of any period it the resignation of the Judge accused.—( Hear, hear.) shouid be proved that the rate.payers as a body in Irel Ind Now, as to the precise motion which was before the House, were more independent in the exercise of ti.eir for calling the printer of the " Times" to the bar, would the functions than the ten-pound householders, and House agree to that motion when only a few days ago less likely to be swayed by the Catholic clergy, if they they had refused to punish the author of attacks upon a were more likely to choose the men who would con- Noble Friend of his (Lord Ashley) ? In the case which duct their business well without reference to their reli had been referred to, regarding the late Lord Eldon and gious or political creed, then it would be right in his the present Speaker, he ( Sir R. P.) had opposed a similar Nobl ( Friend to call upon Hon. Members to consider motion, and Mr. Canning. in resisting it, had concluded whether or not it would be wise and safe and desirable his speech with these words :—" Sir, I oppose to substitute that franchise for the 101. households r.— the motion to prevent the commencement of a series of ( Hear.) He ( Lord Stanley) entertained great doubt of proceedings, the termination of which no one can antici- the manner in which such a constituency would discharge the pate." Whether in the present case Lord Brougham had franchise entrusted to them, because be looked with great re spoken the words referred to or not, he ( Sir R. Peel) did • gret to the way in which the Poor-law Bill had been c af'!ied not know ; but this he would say, that if Members of this into effect in the south of Ireland. He bad heard of no House took advantage of their extreme right to attack place in the south of Ireland in which lists had not b en Judges, they could not wonder if the friends of those prepared under the direction of Roman Catholic Clergy- Judges vindicated them—( Hear, hear)—and he must men, the names generally put into those lists were perems must further say, that any Peer of Parliament sitting as of the Catholic religion. He would not now enter further a Judge of Appeal from the decision of Lord Glenlee, upon the discussion of this question, but he begged it dis hed a perfect tight, in affirming the judgment of that tinctly to be understood by the House that, in assenting Learned Lord, to express his belief in the perfect capacity to the second reading of the Bill, he distinctly adhered and the ability of that Judge.—( Cheers. ) to the necessity of enForcing the 101. franchise; that 10/. Mr. W DUNCOMB E said that as it had been stated franchise being tested by the liability to the as,ess. that Lord Brougham had frequently expressed great ani- ment, not to the amount of 101., but that the party was pos mosity against Lord Eldon, it was hut justice both to the sessed of a qualification to the amount of 10/. He had living and to the dead, to say that Lord Brougham had thought it right at this early period of the debate to state often in the House of Commons, in the House of Lords, what course he should pursue, and if he was called upon to and on the Judicial Bench, borne his testimony to the divide he should for the second reading of the Bill. great learning, the unsullied integrity, and unsullied elm_ Mr. O'CONNELL wished to know whether the N,.ble racter of Lord Eldon.—( Hear, hear.) Lord intended to allude to any other case under the P.i.0.. The LORD ADVOCATE said he thought it very law Act except the otie at Limerick. unfortunate that the expressions which had been referred Lord STANLEY said that he did not. to should ever have been made use of.--( Hear, hear.) At Mr. O'CONNE LL said that such being the case he the same time he thought that any Hon. Member had a would produce documents on Monday that would show perfect right to inquire into the mode in which justice was the entire fairness of the popular pasty on that occasion. administered in any part of the country. Sir ROBERT INGL IS then rose for the purposa of Mr. WYNN considered that there was net the slightest moving that the Bill should be read a second time that day pretence for the motion, and expressed his surprise that six months.—( Hear, hear.) After the statements of any doubt should be entertained of the perfect right to the Noble Lord he felt that he had an exceedingly vindicate any public authorities from attacks made in that difficult task to perform, but he had the consolation of House. knowing that he was not opposing any measure to which the Dr. L USHINGTON said he thought that such cx- Nob l e Lord had in the p resent or in an y former Session g iven pressions as had been alluded to, were most prejudicial to his assent. Notwithstanding what the Noble Lord had stated, the interests of justice. With respect to Lord Glenlee, he (Sir Robert Inglis) considered he had a right to take his the Noble Lord might have vindicated him from any impu- o ta w k n en cou o rs h e e . He thought l iiiu t f h or atany objections that had been England reen atipli e ed equally, if c not r tation, without alluding to what had passed in that House. more strongly, tt toreland. By th Nothing could have been easier than for him to have said poration was to be swept awaywit e h p out ' inqu i rry as a u n r d t ve ap y pearet - 1 that this judgment, like all the other judgments of Lord to him as if the House was willing to adopt a , course with re- Glenlee, was distinguished by its learning and ability, spect to a class of Corporations that it would not adopt with and showed that his Lordship, notwithstanding his great respect to one—for he would venture to say, if the measure age, was as vigorous in mind as he had been twenty years applied to only one Corporation there would be no person before.—( Hear, hear.) If this had been done, he should found in that House who would support it. To tt hat have defended his Noble and Learned Friend's conduct ; purposes were the new Corporations to be applied that but, notwithstanding a friendship of thirty years, which were to be raised in the room of the old ones? Why, taking the statements of the friends of the measure — taking subsisted between his Noble Friend and himself, lie the statements of the Hon. Member for Dublin, who had an could not but express his regret that his Noble extraordinary sagacity in obtaining his ends, that Hon. Mem and Learned Friend should have so far forgotten ber had stated that the measure would have the effect of taking what was due to the dignity of the judgment seat, as to the power out of the hands of those who at present posse ssed have used expressions which must be considered as degrad- it, and giving it to another race. Let those support the Bill who ing to the judgment seat itself, by converting that place, thought it of advantage. He did not think it would be of ad which should be devoted solely to the cool and impartial vantage, and therefore he should oppose it, because he firmly administration of law and justice, into an arena of political believed it would have the tendency of raising the party in Ire discussion.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the case of land who were opposed to the Church. He saw no advantage the Earl of Eldon, that Noble Earl had defended himself that the measure was likely to produce, and as he had entered against what he had considered aersonal attack, which he into no compact to support other measures when the Poor-law P Bill and the Tithe Composition Bill were agreed had much better have done elsewhere ; and he (Dr. Lush- to, he should strenuously oppose the present measure. ington) perfectly recollected that at the time his Believing this measure not to be necessary, and seeing the evil conduct was considered very imprudent ; he could bear consequences which would ensue, no consideration of pers •nal testimony to the present intellectual vigour of Lord Glen- respect, by a-d towards those with whom he usually acted, lee, from having studied his judgments ; but still he agreed should induce him to desert what he believed to be his duty. with the necessity of some measure to enable Judges to re- With that feel ng of duty he now moved that the Bill be read a tire after they attained $0 years of age. Ho did not think second time this day six months.—(Hear, hear.) his Honourable Friend would think it necessary to Mr. BLACKSTONE, in seconding the motion, distinctly press his motion, and he must say, that he re- denied that he had been a party to any compromise on this gretted his Noble and Learned Friend had not question.—(Hear.) If the Noble Lord had introduced the made some acknowledgment, when applied to on li h il i l e w h hich vi d -as ha sen i t io do s wn from the House of Lord s s la .. st ,-ear, f or l l 6 y er of i tr n a t r h d is o h ti o i l O is , e an h d e which the subject. He hoped no misrepresentation would p w a rs e re ! ect t ed by u a e m b a y 'o a rit ma o j take place of what had been said—it was painful might have considered j himself j in y some degree bound to give his to use these terms, of one whose friendship he had en- assent to the principle of the Bill; but not only had another Bill joyed for thirty years ; but he hoped that he should stand been introduced, but it was stated when the Bill was sent down still higher in his friend's estimation for having done what from the House of Lords that it would he regarded as an insult he considered his duty. to the people of Ireland. He saw very little analogy between Mr. BANNERMAN said that a judgment had been Corporation Reform in England and Ireland. Corporations delivered by a Judge who sat on the right of Lotd Glenlee in England were elected for a different purpose than they were in the Court, and Lord Glenlee having been prompted in Ireland; and the English Municipal Reform Bill restored agreed with that Learned Judge. The Solicitor-General the Corporations to the persons to whom they were originally u n p t p t o h s e e ir a 10/ a spoke in a low tone of voice, the judge on the left of Lord Protestant The Corporations in h l a r r eland s were only given for Lord Glenlee was again prompted, and reversed the dcci- Protestants to g Romantransfer fromth ( C at at w h o n u l ' i l e d s. e not H . loss to know sion he had pronounced five mi n ut es b e f ore . This he had why Hon. Members on that (the opposite) side of the Ilouse witnessed himself. He would withdraw his motion—at objected to give a decided negative to the measure. Let them the same time give notice that he should move for an ad- fight the battle nobly ; let them be beaten, but let them not dress on a future day, praying for a Commission to ewer. give up Protestant institutions for the sake of political expe tain whether any of the Scotch Judges were incompetent diency.—(Hear, hear.) If the Corporation question were in consequence of physical infirmity.—( Hear.) settled, the next question brought forward would be the reduc- Sir ROBERT ING LIS objected to permitting the tion of the Church Establishment. He was determined to make his stand now, and resist any further encroachments on withdrawal of the motion unless the threat of an address the Protestant institutions of the country. were withdrawn likewise. Mr. SHAW entertained generally the same opinion on this After a few words from Mr. Bannerman, Sir George question as he had formerly done—that it would be more for the Clerk, and Sir Charles Grey, interrupted by loud cries of advantage of Ireland, and more conducive to the good Govern " Question, divide," the motion was put and negatived ment of the large towns, that the existing Corporations should be without a division. abolished rather than that the present ones should be continued DONNYBROOK FAIR. or new ones substit ted. He had many objections to the pre- Mr. SHAW asked the Noble Lord if he intended to sent measure in detail ; he objected to the franchise, he ob propose measures to abolish Donnybrook fair ? jetted to the boundary ; but when the Bill went into Committee Lord MORPETH said the subject was under consi he would endeavour to improve it to the utmost. If in its present shape the Bill proceeded to a third reading, he should deration. feel as liberty to oppose it entirely • but he felt it inconsistent Mr. O'CONNELL asked whether any alteration had with ersonal honour a d oodfaith ' to opp s the second taken place with a view of increasing the efficiency of the —( Hear, hear.) He n did g not doubt that ° b e e shouldincr.neardeing. con police at Donnybrook. sitlerable odium by the step he was about to take ; but let the Lord MORPETH said it had been made last year. consequence be what it might, no consideration could weigh MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS ( IRE LAN D). with him when opposed to personal honour, and therefore he Mr. S. O'BRIEN presented a petition from Ardagh, in had no choice.—(Hear, hear.) favour of Municipal Reforms. Mr. H. GRA TAN said this question had been decided, On the Order of the Day being read for the second read- not only in this House, but in another place ; and he would ing of the Irish Municipal Corporations' Bill, suggest to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite whether it was Col. VERNER moved as an amendment, that the wise and p olitic to exas p erate the p ublic mind by entering into this fruitless course? He hoped Hon. Gentlemen would no Order of the Day for the adjourned debate on the out- longer bring forward accusations against them as being hostile rages in Ireland be now read. to the Church, because they supported the Government of the Mr. MORGAN JOHN O'CONNELL suggested that Marquis of Normanby. The Corporation of Dublin had cx if the debate on Municipal Corporations were permitted to pended 70,0001., which they had been ordered by a Court of come on Hon. Gentlemen could make the speeches on law, amongst their own friends—they had paid no debt, as had that question which they had intended to have made on been ordered by a Court of law. He hoped that the Mon. the motion of last night, more especially if they followed Baronet opposite would not divide upon the second reading the example of the Learned Sergeant, whose speech fast of the Bill. He believed that no person was a more staunch night was merely a repetition of his speech on Irish Muni- friend to the Protestant Church than the Right Hon. Baronet, cipal Reform two years ago.----( Hear, and a laugh.) and he assured him that he perfectly concurred in everything Mr. LEFROY said that the Hon. and Learned Mem- 111 r. D'ISRAELI that he felt upon that had been taunted with being a bigot in ber for Dublin had last night made an attack upon a religion,because of his vote on this question on a former even- Noble Lord with whom he had the honour to be con- ing, He was really anxious to disclaim any such bigotry of fleeted. He hoped therefore the debate would be ad- feelin g , for he really felt none such. Upon this question he journed until Monday. had always felt that the real question at issue was whether there Mr. O'CONNEL - L said he was willing to undertake the should be a local or a general Government. In England they responsibility of all that could be authenticated as having had rather increased a weak form of Government, because that been said by him against Lord Oxmantown. they had a strong central Government in Ireland ; but they were Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he was desirous to go bound to institute a strong centralized Government, because it on with the second reading of the Irish Corporation Bill was a weak country. The Hon. Member for Dublin said that niht, and afterwards with the Committee of Supply. tnhf ns a i tt t h t ere . should — be between the two countries an identity g i ut ions-- 7 t, lat Ireland should enjoy the fullness of the He would not agree to any postponement of those ten- • English Constitution.—(Cheers.) He received that cheer portant measures. with pleasure, and upon it he would build his arguments Sir R. PE EL thought that the understanding was against the Bill. The Constitution of England was a Constitu that the second reading of that measure should be pro- tion of Church and State. Would the Hon. Member accept ceeded with that night. The early part of Monday night that Constitution ?No e ha rt would he looked upon the Church as iart would be devoted to the Estimates, and afterwards the Irish of the Constitution, as a foreign innovation, and not only so, Outrages Returns question might come on. As his Go- but he considered that the Constipation should not in any part vernment had been attacked he would not pledge himself be of a Scriptural nature. If he would not take the Constitu to a silent vote on the Navy Estimates. tion in Church and State, what then became of the cry of The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it identity of institutions ? All Governments of Ireland had ;teed was essential to the service of the country that the discus- upon the principle of centralization, and against the dogma of identity of institutions. How oth erw i se cou ld th e p resen t Go sion of the army and navy votes should not be postponed. Mr. T. DUNCOM BE said he should proceed with vernment defend the systems of an a r med poli ce a n d s tip en di ar y magistrates. They had never formed any part of the Constitu his motion respecting the Westminster Theatres, on ti on o f E ng l an d. All Governments during the last forty years Monday, as announced, and would take the sense of the had given rise to a system unknown before—the system of ae ' it. agi- House on it. tation—a system of refined innovation which was befo • ‘ un d - A conversation ensued respecting the adjournment of known—a system of legal violation of the law. He opposed the last night's debate, in which Colonel Verner, Mr. the second reading of the Bill without any bigoted feeli)ritu,s Shaw, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord John Rus- he knew that the result was not doubtful ; but those who sup sell, and other Hon. Members took part ; it was agreed ported the Bill would hereafter find that, at present, by philoso that the discussion on the second reading of the Irish phy they might have got what they must then secure by the sword.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Corporations Bill should be proceeded with. The Noble Mr. LITTON explained—He had been Counsel for the Lord accordingly moved the second reading. Corporation of Dublin in the case 11 a uded to by the Hon. Diem- Mr. Sergeant JACKSON presented a petition, signed ber for Meatn. He had formerly warned him against making e assured Cork, 10,000 inhabitants in the liberties of the city of such statements as he had done—he again did so f or h Cork, praying the House to introduce a Boundary Bill, him that there was no foundation in fact for them. The lion. which should save the petitioners from having to pay city alember then went into a long detail of the case in Chancery. rates, and also the hardship of coming seven miles to town With respect to the question now before the House he must say to Petty Sessions. that it was with great regret he found himself obliged to differ Lord STANLEY said he did not expect that any oppo- from those Hon. Members under whose political banners he had so long acted ; but he must g ive his decided ne g ative to the sition would be made to the second reading of this Bill. present measure. In the last Session, notwithstanding the He felt himself bound not to oppose it now, as he had concessions made by Honourable Members on his side nest on a former occasion. He understood that Hon. Gen- had forced through the of the House, the . Government tlemen connected with Ireland and interested in the house a franchise which would have swamped the respectable welfare of the Protestant Church should look with great constituencies of the borough-towns of Ireland. That Bill suspicion, not only on this Bill, but also on the powers had been most properly rejected in another place. He agreed which it proposed to give, and on the probable spirit in that reform was necessary to a certain extent in the Irish Cur which those powers would be exercised. It was easy to porations, but the present Bill was not reform, but degradation. conceive that those suspicions—expressed as they On these grounds he should certainly oppose it. would be by the constituencies of Hon. Gentle- Sir ROBERT PEEL felt unwilling to give a silent vote on men, would be increased by the recent appoint- the present occasion. The question now to be discussed was ments made by the Irish Government, which were whether they would re-construct the Irish Municipal Corpora not, in their opinion, conducive to the welfare of the Pro- tions on the principle of popular elections, or whether they would testant Church in that country. With all respect for those depart from the course which they had adopted in the last and motives, and making, at the same time , allowance for the preceding Sessions? He would refer shortly to the history of the conduct of the Government, he would say that it was not question. In 1834 they had reformed the ( c . j orpor a a n t d m i n n s tr o n f d E nc ngl i aie his intention to oppose the second reading of this Bill. H e ehe i yh l ad f destros l ted therseealef-netlaeteintinveprg ple, 1836 they had to .dee'tter would shortly state why he felt, in honour bound not to principle p whether eopop th u e a y r w re o p uld apply the same principle to the Irish oppose that second reading. The House had, in the last Corporations, or take another course. The question was, wile_ Session, bound itself not to oppose that second reading, ther it was possible to maintain in Ireland the self-el ec ti ve if they should obtain two me asures which would be essen. principle after havin g destro y ed it in England? After having tial for the safe working of the Corporations Bill, and in- removed the civil disabilities under which the Roman Catholics troducing the principle of popular election, and also laboured, and finding they were not practicallyaizlm itted to th e auxiliary to the interests of the Esta blished Church. T hose Cor p orations of Ireland, was it possible to maintain the principle objects were obtained in the int roduction of the Ir ish that the old Corporations should remain on tie., basis on which the C r orations should fill'up y Poor-law Bill and the Bill for the settlement of the had found them—viz. that the existing P s oeenerally and practice ' Irish tithe question. The one measure was a material the i v t a h c e ancie r s an ns d continue tin p i i i en Protestants? elections Y e ts c e lon What he proposed was security for the Elective Franchise. He hoped that the that considering eo the provision that had been made for l oca l other would b e efficiently a d m i n i s tered by the Noble Lord government in Ireland —considering that a Bill had been in now appointed Vi ceroy f or I re l an d. Now, having obtained traduced by which every town was enabled to provide for its those two measures, he would ask were not the Hon, local government, it appeared to him (Sir R. Peel) and his Members who were pledged by the majority of the House friends tha wisest course in the convulsed state of that country then bound to fulfill their contract now ?—( Hear, hear.) to abolish corporations altogether.—(Bear, hear.) re. They had He could not say how other Hon. Members might feel, never yet offered any opposition to the second t!ding_of the bill. but for his part he felt in honour bound not to swerve from They had never attempted to maintainttheeenpnritnrcairple they had 37, they would not, however, deny that the recent appointments of maintained the necessity of reform. had maintained the principle, that the Corporations the Government in Ireland had justly excited considerable s h e • - should be abolished, but it was to dis alarm and apprehension amongst the friends of the Pro- guise the fact that their minorities were comparatively testant Church in Ireland. But he looked with some hope small, their being in the first year eighty against them, to the Administration of the Noble Lord appointed to and in the second about the same n umber. It was necessary govern Ireland, having seen his declaration to the effect to determine what course they should pursue. He wished he that he was going not to change, but to administer the could act upon the principle which some Hon. Friend s o f hi s direct law, and to act with impartiality t owards all classes, meant to p ursue of g ivin g the motion a negative; and They had given a pledge that when the Tithe Composition honoured as he was, and he felt more Honoured than if ran k or office had been conferred on him—with the confidence of the and the Poor Law Bill had passed, they would enter upon lead'd the most powerful p y e other measures, and he (Lord Stanley) felt himself bound thatireg a gentlehmen of Englen . d, an he could not take thatcouart" by that pledge, and it was impossible for him, even if he ___ 4 f Hear,evhear .) en i n t n i l :10 po h s t it h m e n a — very convenient course, an r i s l e al felt desirous, to swerve from it. But he begged leave to k consistent one, to act in %at way ; but it was impossible, hay. be distinctly understood, that in supporting the second ing the confidence of a powerful party, to refuse to give them reading of the Bill, b e p l e d ge d hi mse lf to adhere to the his opinion as to the course which, in the present difficult posi principles w hi c h b e b a d always ma i n t a ined, th a t ti on o f public affairs, m i ght b e advisable. He had r eso l ve d , in giving Corporations upon the pr i nc i p l e o f therefore, upon what appeared to him the wisest course, rather popular election, he would not consent to be driven to than the two Houses of Parliament. should remain in eternal hos tility • and Friends that no difference lower the franchise.—( Hear, hear.) In assenting to the . , assuring his Hon. of would interfere • with that cordi principles of the present Bill he desired especially to a or t nion, h yi the present case,. ted between the guard himself against being held out as assenting to the llaughter,fromwich had always s t u e b ri s a is 1 side of the Housine. i lear, and new principle introduced by his Noble Friend opposite, hesitation , the Minis in giving .. for these reasons, whereby a different constituency would come into exist- sitating support to the second reading of the Bill, and try once after the expiration of two years. He obj ected dis- to effect a settlement of the q uestion on saf e principles. tinctly to pledge himself beforehand or prospect ivel y to On a former occasion he had g iven no rash or precipitate THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 9. 1839 pledge as to the course he should pursue. They had stipulated in 1837 that the Poor-law Bill and the Irish Tithe Bill were MANCHESTER AND BIRMING HAM EXTENSION RAILWAY. inseparably connected with the question of Municipal Reform ; their opponents had denied it, but now they had got both.-- When that measure was last brought forward, Lord Normanby was at the head of affairs in Ireland. No understanding had been entered into with the Government, nor had any reserva tion been made as to who should be appointed in the event of a vacancy. Lord Ebrington had been appointed, but that ap pointment did not entitle him to depart from the principle he had laid down ; at the same time he did not de..y that he disapproved of the appointment of that Nobleman. (Cheers. ) He had heard the Noble Lord's speech and his ex planation; he admitted his private virtues, and he had no doubt that it was his intention to administer the laws impartially, but when he found a Nobleman selected to administer those laws, who stated that he hoped the war against the Established Church would be transferred from the poor to the rich, giving him all due credit for good intentions, it was his firm belief that his hands were paralysed by that declaration. The House would recollect the scrutinising acuteness with which e• cry appointment which he (Sir Robert Peel) had made was watched.--( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Because he had ap pointed the Honourable Member for the University of Dub.in and the lion. Recorder of Dublin Privy Councillors, had they not fastened on him the charge of hostility to the Roman Catho ' lies of Ireland, and yet they were men holding, not violent, but strong opinions.--C Laeghter from the Ministerial benches. ) When he had selected the Noble Earl (Haddington) and his Right Hon. and Gallant Friend the Member for Launceston to administer the affairs of that country, did they not do all in their power to prejudice those appointments, because an Orange flag had been exhibited over the box in which the unconscious Lord-Lieutenant sat, and of which he knew nothing?—( Cheers. ) Was that dealing out even-handed justice to all parties?— (hear, hear.—Was it fair to th-t interests of the Church ? Was it just to the Protestant Ministry of Ireland?—( Hear, hear.) In assenting to this second reading of the Bill, there- MEETING OF SHAREHOLDERS YESTERDAY The half-yearly meeting of the Shareholders of the Manchester and Birmingham Railway took place yester day, at the York Hotel, King-street, Manchester. The meeting was very numerously attended. THOMAS ASHTON, Esq., President of the Board of Di rectors, having been called to the Chair, The Seal of the Company was affixed to the Register of Proprietors, in pursuance of the provisions of the Act of Parliament. After which, The SECRETARY read the following Report of the Di rectors : The Directors beg to report that since the meeting of Shareholders in September last, the works upon the part of the line which had then been let, namely, between Man chester and Stockport, have been proceeding vigorously and satisfactorily, and there is every reason to belies e that the Railway connecting these two important towns will be ready for the use of the public by the time contracted for, namely, in May, 1840. The survey of the line between Stockport and Congle ton, which was in progress at the period of the last meeting, has been concluded, and the line staked out. But, for reasons adverted to on a former occasion, it is desirable to deviate from the present line of railway, and on that account the letting of the line between Stockport and Congleton and beyond that place, awaits the result of the application now making to Parliament for power to effect this object. The postponement of the letting, however, involves no practical delay, inasmuch as the opening of the line must be dependent upon the completion of the heavier works of Stockport and Congleton viaducts. These viaducts the Directors have consequently been anxious to place under contract ; and the former of them was let to most respectable contractors upon the thirteenth day of November, and the latter on the fourteenth day of February last, at sums both within the engineer's estimate. The Stockport viaduct is to be completed in two years from the date of the contract; the Congleton in two years and a half from the like date. In connection with the application to Parliament, to which reference has been already made, the Directors may mention that they also purpose to seek powers under their intended Act to extend the line of railway in the township of Manchester, by making an approach to the station front Ducie-street, Piccadilly. By the arrangements thus de cided upon the fullest facilities will be afforded to the traffic of the line, and the station of the railway, in point of public convenience and central position, will, the Directors believe, be the best which the town of Manchester presents. The Bill now before Parliament has passed the standing orders, and Lord Francis Egerton has kindly undertaken the charge of it through the House of Commons. The orders of the Lords render it necessary to submit the Bill to a future meeting of shareholders for special approval, which meeting will be summoned at the earliest oppor tunity. In reference to the next Session the Directors have given notice of their intention to apply to Parliament for power to construct a branch to Macclesfield in substitution of that which the Company are now authorised to make. That there are various objections to the present branch can scarcely be matter of surprise when it is recollected that it was laid out as part of the main line of the late South Union Company, and converted into a branch whilst the Bill was before Parliament rather as a guarantee to the town of Macclesfield that a branch would be made for its accommodation than as at all binding the Company to the construction of the line as laid down in the Parliamentary plan. And the Directors are happy to state that by means of the proposed branch the public will have a better and safer line. The public atteation is now directed to the question of a junction of the termini of the railways entering Man chester, and the Directors of this Company, with a view to effect this object, and in pursuance of their declared inten tion of upwards of two years ago, have caused plans to be prepared of lines of railway branching from the station at Store -street, by which a junction with all the other rail ways terminating in Manchester will be effected. The advantages of a connecting line of this description, pos sessing good engineering properties, is too obvious to re quire further comment. PURCHASES OF LAND. The purchase of property is proceeding satisfactorily. In some instances the Directors have had recourse to a jury ; but they have done so with reluctance, and only in cases in which the nature and extent of the claims made upon the Company left them without an alternative. The verdicts thus obtained have realized a large saving to the Company's funds. The Directors have also successfully resisted certain at tempts to restrain the Company by injunction from taking possession of land under the powers of their Act. THE ACCOUNTS. At the last meeting the Directors submitted to the Pro prietors a statement of accounts commencing with the payment of the first call under the Act, and made up as the Act directs to the 31st of July last. At this meeting a similar statement of accounts will be presented for the half-year terminating on the 31st of Ja nuary last. The statement laid before the last meeting for its sanc tion, could not properly comprise an account of the moneys received and expended antecedently to the passing of the Act, because it was matter of arrangement when the amalgamation of the late Manchester South Union and Manchester, Cheshire, and Staffordshire Companies took place, that all accounts connected with the respective Com panies, from the year 1835 to the close of the Session of 1837, should, so far as related to each Company, be ad justed and settledi under the authority of its own Provi sional Committee. These accounts may be inspected by the shareholders of the respective Companies, on applica tion to Mr. Ellis and Mr. Foss, the late Secretaries to the Cheshire Junction and South Union Companies. TIIE EXTENSION RAILWAY. This is a subject to w hick the Directors do not in tend now particularly to advert, as they deem it better to await the result of the investigation, which is proceed ing upon the subject of the Standing Orders, before they enter (as it will be their duty to do), into a public statement of the sort of opposition they are encountering, and of the parties by and for whom it is promoted. To all who are acquainted with the Standing Orders, it is perfectly well known that a literal compliance with them is not attainable ; but it has never happened, until this occasion, that the orders, which were intended for the pro tection of landowners, and to see that due information was given to them of the intended interference with their pro perty should be used, as they now are not by the landowners„ for that wholesome and legitimate purpose, but by a com bination of Railway and Canal Companies, as a means of preventing inquiry into the merits of a proposed public fore, he must not be understood as viewing the appointment of Lord Fortescue without apprehension. Now, as to the en gagement which he had entered into : he had not entered into it individually—he had con erred with every one who did him the honour to consult him—he could not, of course, bind those who had refused their assent to the arrangement, but he could not consider himself justified in varying the course which he adopted last year on this subject. It would be painful to him if he felt that the obligation ho had thus entered into was inconsistent with the dictates of sound policy ; but he did not think that was the case. In the present situation of affairs he did not see any course preferable to the attempt to remodel the Corporations, endeavouring to secure to the Protestants in those Corporations their due influence. An attempt had been made for two Sessions to obtain the extinction of Corporations, but these attempts had failed. And what was now to be done ? Were Corporations to remain as they wore ? In dividuals might evade these practical questions, but a great and powerful party—exercising an important influence in that House—most approach their settlement. ( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Bandon (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) had last night stated that the Learned Member for Dublin, had not the command over the respectable part of the Catholic population in Ireland—and that the Precursor Rent for the whole province of Connaught only amounted to twenty-five pounds. Might not this disinclination to agitation arise from a hope that the Conservative party in that House would re deem their pledges and agree to the consideration of this question? And would not the agitation of the Learned Member for Dublin be much more successful if those pledges were not redeemed? —( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Bart. concluded by expressing his resolution to support the second reading of the Bill. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said he hoped a division would take place, as it would show the union which prevailed en the other side of the House. Mr. MAXWELL said he should vote against the second reading of the Bill without deference to any leader—(Minister ial cheers) —and in conformity with a pledge which he had made on the hustings at Cavan—to vote against a measure which in his soul he believed would advance the democratic principle in Ireland—strengthen the malign and pernicious in fluence of the 'Catholic priesthood, and depress the persecuted Protestants of that country. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said he found himself in the same position with the Noble Lord (Stanley) and the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir Robert Peel). He considered himself pledged to support the second reading of this Bill, but Hon. Gentlemen opposite would find their mis take if they thought the numerous and respectable party on that side of the House was not determined to maintain the Protest ant interests of the country.—( Hear, hear.) There might be some slight difference as to details, but they were unanim MIS as to the principle, and although he (Sergeant Jackson) would vote for the second reading, yet he should insist that there should be a bona fide franchise of 101. tested by rating, and such was the unanimous feeling on that side of the House.— (Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) Mr. ELLIS rose amidst loud cries of " Divide ! Divide ! Question ! Question !" which continued' during the whole time he was addressing the House. We understood him to say that I,e trusted, although the Hon. Bart:considered himself pledged, he would not deny theright of other individuals to come to a dif ferent judgment on,the question. He had not voted in favour of either the latter Bill or the Poor-law Bill, because he had no confidence in those who had proposed those measures, and he considered the institution of the Precursor Society a breach of the pledge which had been given on that occasion. —(Loud cries of " Order, order, " " Divide, divide," amidst which the Hon. Member sat down.) The House then divided, when the numbers were— For the second reading Against it 39 Majority in favour of the second reading —261 Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the House now resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. 11r. BAGGE moved that the House now adjourn.—(Hezr, and strong cries of " No.") Col. SIBTHORP seconded the motion. He then took occasion to express his astonishment at having received an invi tation from a Committee appointed to prepare a public dinner for the Hon. Member for Middlesex, on the ground that he (Col. Sibthorp) had invariably supported iMr. Hume in his mea sures of economy. Be that as it might, he would not dine with the Hon. Member for Middlesex.—( Great laughter. ) He would say, however, that if the Hon. Member would intro duce his promised economic measure for the abolition of Lord- Lieutenant for Ireland he would then be consistent. Mr. HUME said he would introduce that measure when he could do it not later than half-past ten in the evening. With regard to his having invited the Hen. and Gallant Colonel to dinner— Col. SIBTHORP—But I won't dine with you.—( Great laughter. ) Mr. HUME—I have not been invited myself yet. Col. SIBTHORP —Then it must be a hoax.—( Laughter. ) Mr. BAGGE again moved that the House adjourn. He thought they had done enough during the last two nights. Lord JOHN RUSSELL objected, on account of the im portant and pressing nature of the business now before the House.—( Hear, hear. ) Mr. BAGGE persisted in his motion, and demanded the sense of the House on it. Strangers were therefore ordered to withdraw, and the HcaPe divided, when there s.ppeared— For the Adjonrnment Against it Majority against the Adjournment --275 On our re-admission to th 3. gallery, we found Sir F. TRENCH moving the amendment of which he had given notice. He said that up to the close of the last Session, he had consulted every Member who had fallen in his way. Some thought there was too much light, and some too little ; but at the close of the Session he believed he had suc ceeded in accommodating the House. Previously to that time, those who sat in the galleries had their eyes burnt out, and those who sat in the body / of the House were unable to read.— (Cries of "Move, move. ) He should be satified to do so, but he found that a new experiment was to be introduced. He hoped the House would allow him to have the lustres and shades put in the position in which he wished to have them, before they allowed the experiments of the philosophers.—(Laughter. ) The proposed light was certainly a most beautiful one, but it was most dazzling and pernicious. —(Laughter.) If they were an assembly of eagles, instead of an assembly of gentlemen, he did not know that they could object to it.—(Loud laughter. ) Dr. Reid had received 1,0001. for his experiments, and most deservedly—.all he wanted in way of consolation was that the lights should be placed in such a situation as would give his plan a fair trial.—( Loud cries of " Move, move.") They ought not to condemn his system without having had an oppor tunity of seeing its effect. He was about to be put in compe ition with a new light—(Loud laughter)— but they had no right to do so until they had seen the full effect of his plan. He ought to be peculiarly under the patronage of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.—(Laughter.) He would content himself, seeing the impatience of the House, and eon. elude with proposing the motion he had upon the paper. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt himself obliged to oppose the motion on the ground that it rested upon the speeches of Hon. Members of the House in a former session. That itself was irregular, as it was not competent to refer to former debates. The SPEAKER then read the motion amidst loud laughter. —" On going into a Committee of Supply, to move as an amend ment—That it is the opinion of this House that the old system of lighting the House of Commons was not satisfactory to the Members who sat in the body of the House, and was ' ex tremely distressing' (Mr. Pryme) to those who sat in the galleries. That if gentlemen sitting in the gallery suffered inconvenience, it was fitting that that inconvenience should be immediately remedied.'—( Lord John Russell.) That a Member of this House did un dertake to apply a remedy ; and that, after much trouble, and many experiments, the existing plan was adopted, and appeared to give general satisfaction up to the close of the Ist Session. That, before the meeting of Parliament in the present Session, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Hume, and Lord Duncannon, did inspect the Philosophical Oxygen Bude Light,' with a view to its applicability to the lighting the House of Commons; that the making this experiment neces sary implies that the existing system is defective and unsatis factory, and Members will be called upon to make a com parison between the present system and that system of Philo sophical Light which is contemplated as its substitute. That the lustres now suspended in this House have, in this Session, been deprived of nearly one-third of their intended light and of all their intended softness. That, with a few to justice and a fair trial upon a point so important to the convenience and comfort f the Members of this House, it is fitting' that the lustres should be presented to their criticism in the manner proposed by the individual to wham was confided the dangerous honour of attemptinc , to make arrangements that might meet with general satislation. That, therefore, it is the opinion of this House that the proper officer be directed to replace the branches and candles that have been removed, and to colour the inside of the shades pale green. The expense per night being for candles 6 3 And for colouring, &c 0 7 0 Total ...£1 13 3 But the mere machinery for the new plan will cost 2,000/., and the experiment will probably cost 2001. Sir F. TRENCH--He had no objection to give the ex periment a fair trial ; but why, if the House was satisfied with the present mode of lighting the House, should they try any other? He would withdraw his motion, and put the last para graph on the Minutes for another occasion. - Capt. PECHELL was about to address the House, but was met with cries of " Order." The motion was then withdrawn. SUPPLY. On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Capt. GORDON objected to going into the Committee of Supply at that late hour of the night.—(Cries of "Go on," and " No, no.") Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection, if such was the wish of the House, to postpone the Committee till Monday next. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL brought in a Bill to amend the Insolvent Debtors Act. The object of the Bill was to provide for the maintenance of poor debtors in the Queen's Bench Prison. Some discussion took place as to the propriety of introducing such a measure without a previous resolution of the House, in which Lord Stanley, Sir James Graham, and Mr. Hume took part. The Bill was finally withdrawn. On the motion of Lord MORPETH the Lords Amendment to the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act Amendment Bill were agreed to. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve. It appears from the German papers that we may shortly expect to see the Hereditary Grand Duke of Russia in London, measure. The Directors are sanguine in their expectation that this attempt will signally fail, but they do not disguise that the species of unworthy warfare, to which their opponents have resorted, is a source of much expense and annoyance. THOMAS ASHTON, Chairman. Mr. Buck, the engineer, then read his Report, which was as follows : TO THE DIRECTORS OF THE MANCHESTER AND BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY. GENTLEMEN-In accordance with your instructions, I submit the following Report on the progress and state of the works. Those parts of the line which are contracted for and in progress extend from Fairfield -street, in Man chester, to the south side of Daw Bank, on the Cheshire side of the river Mersey, at Stockport. This distance :is divided into five contracts, which are separately noticed as follows, viz.:— Contract, No. 1, or Fairfield-street Contract.—Com menced August 14, 1838. Time of completion eighteen months. This contract is 1,155 feet in length, and com prises the first portion of the viaduct by which the Rail way leaves the depot in Manchester ; it consists chiefly of arches of brickwork, varying in space from 30 to 45 feet, and of one cast-iron arch of 128 feet 9 inches span. The progress hitherto made is consistent with the work being completed within the specified time. Contract No. 2, or Chancery-lane Contract.—Com menced August 14th, 1838. The time for completion is eighteen months. This contract is 2,136 feet in length, and consists of the second portion of the viaduct by which the railway leaves the town of Manchester. The con tractor has not yet had possession of all the land, but is expected to have it in the course of a few days hence, and the whole will be completed with ease in the specified time. Contract No. 3, or Hyde-road Contract, is 1,900 feet, and comprehends the third, or last portion of the viaduct issuing from the town of Manchester. It is not yet com menced, by reason of the obstacles which have hitherto prevented the Company from obtaining possession of the land ; but as it is expected that the contractor will have possession in the course of a few days, such arrangements may be made as will ensure no delay arising from this un avoidable postponement of operations in this part of your works. Contract No. 4, or Heaton Norris Contract, extends from the Hyde-road at the south end of No. 3 contract, to near the right bank of the river Mersey at the town of Stockport ; its length is four miles twenty. six chains. It also includes the ballasting and laying of the permanent way upon contracts, one, two, and three. It dates:from September 11th, 1838, and the time for completion is twenty months. The heaviest work on this contract is a cutting of 409,000 cubic yards, the whole of which is to be carried to embankment; and 350,000 yards of this quan tity are to be carried in one directi, n. About 80,000 yards have been already excavated. The contractor is proceed ing actively and judiciously ; on the 18th of this month, he will commence night work, and he is making such arrange ments as will enable him t o ca l cu l a t e u p on com pl e ti ng 4te embankment to the end of the third contract, by Novem ber next, when he will be ready for laying three miles of the permanent way ; and there appears to be little doubt of his performing his contract in the specified time, namely, by May, 1840. Contract No. 5, or Stockport Viaduct Contract, dates from November 13th, 1838. The time for completion is two years. It consists of a viaduct of 22 arches, of 63 feet span each. The first stone of this structure has been laid to-day, and the contractors are making arrangements for proceeding vigorously with their work Contract. No. 6, or Congleton Viaduct Contract.—This work has just been lei. and is to be compl , ted in two and a years. consists of forty-two arch. s, each of sixty feet span. Prepara'.ions have commenced by throwing up clay for making about 150,000 bricks during the present year. This work is that which may be expected to require a longer time for execution than any otto-r of the line, and therefore its being now commenced will facilitate the ma king of such arrangements in the future lettings, as will tend to bring all the other parts of the railway tow ar d s completion nearly 'at the same period —I am, Genticm n, your obedient servant, GEORGE W. BUCK. Manchester, March 6th, 183 Q. Th e S E CRETARY having read a statement of the rece i pts and disbursements, Mr. BRADSUAW moved, which was seconded by Mr. HORNER, that the report and statement of accounts be adop.. ted, and together with the engineer's Report, be circulated among the Proprietors. Dr. LYON, before that motion was put to the meeting, wished to ask whether it would not be better to complete EVENING EDITION • the Crewe branch before the extension line was applied fo because AlanchPter would then have a more rapid comm" nication with the south than it had now ? Mr. WEST111:1;;;;1dCl;; to enter into a statement to the propriety of iroeseding with the Crewe line, but t h t could be better adverted to af; or the Report had been r ceived and adopted, and the accounts passed. Mr. ASHTON said the accounts commenced with the IC eeipt of the first call, but before that call was made, a posit of 5/. per share was originally paid, and he wished t• know whether there could be laid before the Shareholders al': statement of the mode in which that money had been FP plied,? Mr. WESTHEAD said the manner in which that mei , had been expended was distinctly stated at the first Ine , ing, and the accounts were still ope'n to the inspectioi; any Shareholders,—( Hear, hear.) Dr. LYON wished to put a question as to the mode dealing with the owners of i» operty. It was stated ti the Directors had en able to deal satisfactorily with sou owners of land, but that they had had great difficulty ; making arrangements with others. In none of the rt pi)i was it stated that offers had been made by the Direc:c which had been rejected by the land owners. thought it was the duty of the Company to deal liberal and to offer a sum rather above than under the real keti value of the land they might want.—(Hear, bra He nad been given to understand that if the Company sve, before a Jury without having made an offer, and a ver:L . , were given against them, that they would have to pay i , the costs, whereas if a party did not succeed in obtain., , g more than the Company had offered, he would hav: bear all the expense. Mr. CHAPPELL read a list of cases that had been • tided only yesterday, in which the parties had not ss ceeded in obtaining one half of what they demanded. Company would not resort to a Jury in any case where demand was not exorbitant ; they considered themsel. the servants of the Shareholders only, and would endesv , to do justice to all parties.—( Hear, hear.) Dr. LYON was glad this explanation had been mu and believed it would be very satisfactory to the Shin t" holders generally. The CHAIRMAN then put the motion, which was una' mously agreed to. Mr. WESTHEAD then entered into a detail of the eke: - stances which had induced him lately to tender his res nation, although he had not done so without mature el . beration. He had thought it was possible that they rm not be able to get the Bill for altering the line, through liament during the present Session ; and when he cam , . consider the expense that would be incurred in form . the line from the point at which it was to diverge the direction of Crewe to Chepsey, and that all, they would only save a distance of Pt . miles, it appeared to him it was desirable Cl the Directors should pause, and not commit the' selves to a greater extent than they had done in r ference to Congleton, and other expensive works throni the Potteries, until the feeling of Parliament with resp 4 c l to the extension line was ascertained. He would be party to putting the Shareholders to expense. If tl3 . could not this Session induce Parliament to pass a vote favour of the Bill, it was foolish to think they would 1 able next Session to present to the Committee any ad d ' tional reasons or arguments why the Bill should ow The expense of the line from Sir John Stanley's estate Chepsey, through Congleton and the Potteries, vo y be three times the amount of the expense of t l. line from the same point to Crease ; and, after that additional outlay, the saving of the distance in t l direction of Berwick and London would be, as he br' stated, only four miles. The Directors appeared rn"''' sanguine in their expectations of obtaining a Bill for extension of the line than be was ; but he objected to per ceeding further in the construction of the line throuf Congleton and the Potteries until they knew what V decision of Parliament would be.—( Hear, hear.) was satisfied that no better line could be found in the c l ' . rection of London than the one they had selected, and 1 , hoped Parliament would sanction its adoption. Altheuf he had tendered his resignation, the Directors were u willing to accept it—( Hear, hcar)—and he had nu' consented to continue a Director on condition his brother Directors would call a special Wel t " of the Proprietors, in the event of the Extension Bill ben thrown out of Parliament, to discuss the propriety of 01 ' 3 , 1 ', doning the Pottery Line altogether, and constructing t'' line to Crewe. In the event of the extension line butt" thrown out, there would be a choice of evils—whea t ' they should go to Crewe, or go on to Chipsey, and 1 n n. a greater expense with a less probability of a decided r" turn. The money that would have to be laid out in WO ing the line to Crewe would be far more beneficially pended than in constructing the line to Chepsey, and t f shareholders would eventually gain a fair remuneration that line, although the advantage that would be rived from it might not be so great '" could be wished. The Shareholders had no occasion despond in consequence of the 878 objections that bad bre:: offered to their Bill ; he could assure the Meeting t he objections were most frivolous; the Directors would , !, the meantime, incur no expense that was not a b so lute :, l l indispensable in regard to that portion of the line, an d hoped the Proprietors would coincide with them in tI decision they had come to, which had been resolved up solely with a view to tke interests of the Company.—( He ar ;) Mr. CHAPPELL said that every species of meanness 2' duplicity had been resorted to for the purpose preventing the Company obtaining the Bill, an d . ' 1! hoped every exertion would be made to get a line by w hP: they might be independent altogether of the Grand Jun tion Railway Company.—(Hear, hear.) He understoo that the list of objections to the proposed line was went:. two inches broad, and 60 feet long.—(Laughter.) But l° believed they were of such a frivolous and trifling natu r that no apprehension need be entertained as to their su' ceeding. When the line to Rugby was constructed, an'' ther line to London might be formed that would be Int'' . conducive to the interests of Manchester, if the Lend' and Birmingham Company did not ch o ose t o a ccommed ° them.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. WESTHEAD felt confident that they had nothing fear from th e o bj ec ti ons b e f ore th e St a nding Or ° ,' Committee. Th a t C omm itt ee wa s comp o sed of bil l ' honourable men, whose only object would be to r certain whether or not the Standing Orders bad been 60°• plied with-4 Hear.) Mr. Alderman BROOKS said that the extension of line was of th e g re a test importance, not to t Sharehold ers mere ly, b u t to the public. The rt ° ought to arrive in Manchester at six o'clock, a t t. ' ' , the letters oug ht ne ve r to be delivered at a later b ° ,, - than eight. At present the time at which the mail r due was fif teen m i nu t e s p a st seven; but he had go t accurate account of the times at which it had arrived o c i day for the l as t mon th, f ro m which it would be seen th e. was no great punctuality observed : Min. li c ` l ' . On Feb. 7 the Train reached Manchester at 45 past 8 M 4 35 21 8 26 3 16 a 13 8 25 6 15 I° 3 40 ... 52 8 26 8 22 23 24 25 26 27 8 28 March 40 8 3 4 5 35 9 6 7 I , el' Th chewed how necessary it was that their Bill s.' I, t . be carried in order to secure regularity, and he thong `, remonstrance ought to be made to the Governmen t the subject.—( Hear, hear.) de Mr. CIIAPPELL observed that if the line were ex tend t• Rugby, a distance of 27 miles, it would be saved, ir, from the straightness of the line they would be able ta. it h greater speed and safety ; and that if no obstr ue l were met with on the London and Birmingham Ra il° ,. o the joining from Manchester to London might then be ! complished in eight hours.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. NEWBURY repelled the charges that bad b o e ? - brought against the Company. It had been said, 011 1 :, other things, that they could not pay their deposits , i / e 0 t, deposit of 99,4001. was paid into the Bank at the r time that charge was made in the Railway Times, th e . gan of the Grand Junction Company.—( Hear, bear.) 4 , felt confident that Parliament would do justice, and theMr.y would succeed in obtaining their Bill. BARBER, in moving a vote of thanks to the tors, observed that it was of the utmost importance '" t : chester should have an independent line, and he trn b that every exertion would be made to effect that des ire object. This motion having been seconded, it was carried tlir nimously. d i A vote of thanks was then given to the Chairman, i d returned thanks, and stated that if they did not 0101° ,4' Bill for extending the line, the Directors would if fi d diately call a meeting of the Shareholders, to take int nc , - , sideration the propriety of carrying the line on to Cr ene The meeting then adjourned. 20 SMUGGLED ClGARS.—During the nigh t 11 . tureen Thursday and Friday two of the Thames P t) , officers, in consequence of priv.ite information, seized a,e, 5001bs. weight of smuggled cigars, near Grays, in E s au The cigars bad been " rum" from an East IndiarnallP were being conveyed to town in a cart. _ A QUANTITY OF SECOND-HAND, Sri VER SPOONS and FORKS are o ff ere d f o r Sale' from 6s. 3d. to 6s. 9d. p er ounce, at T . COX SAV'',l do, Goldsmith, Silversmith, &c., 47, Cornhill (Sey en from Gracechurch-street), Lodon. Rev. 11 " C BIRTHS. On the sth inst., at Peckham, the lady of the Burton, of a daughter On the Bth inst. the lady of the Rev. W. Harrison, of Hospital, :if a (laughter. MA. On the sth inst., at Kimpse ßßlED y Church, Albert 1Tud50u,.e,..14°0.1 san of Clement R o yd s , E sq ., of Falinge, in the county of o f caster, to Susan Eliza, only child of Robert Nuttail, Esq Kimpsey-house, Worcestershire. DIED. On the 2d inst., at Hackney, Mrs. Ann Brookes,aged i_ ot i On th. 4th inst., Catherine, wife of Mr. F. Hart, Su udley-street, aged 35 London : Printed and Published by MLTRDO YOU mo d, if No. 112, Strand , at The Sun Office. No. 112, Stran the county of Middlesex.—Saturday, March 9, 1839. Ass n Loa n versi( Davit Aless i Mein Th e I , these Pr( api G. and \I Ah rainst-4 follo w friend at', al and n 1 1E - Al I d 13Y-L one o , writir EC Court r axt, Ofae, 11 At and 1 Hoes te r d n Ay s ena A as fc F, T. L on , 11" ii„ Ole] Ohl