The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-24 00:00:00

non • ee to pledge itself to adhere to these principles, an I to oppose this !nation which had for its object the entire i ll re CO- T r Ueloll of the pi', party of the Church in Ireland. •he !lon. s'is miser who proposed it stated his views as to the recron struction tto ovears ago. He said that he would give 70,000/. to the Protestant. Church Establishment, 'OO.OOOl. to the P resbyteri ans and Weslesane in Ireland, and that he would give th e remainder to ihe Roman Catholics. That was the principle which was now under their consideration. It was a question of opinion., and, if they granted 26,000/. out of the Chur ch prope r ty thi s year, th e y wou ld have to gr ant a great deal more next year. The . que . s . ion *as, wheth er t h ey were to reconstruct the disposal of the 2 Propert y in several ways, and to confiscate the pr ,l 3 prop 'Of the Established Ch urc h i n I re l an d. W er e they justified in m aking any such appropriation? Were they standing there as le g i s l ators looking bark and viewing all the circumstancesco nnected with t h e U n i on, and the un d erstan di ng _ entered nito t o continue the support of that Church at that ta-ne, justi fied in consenting to such an appropriation? It was imposs ble for any person to read the words of the articles of the Union without feeling sal i-fi e d t h at i t wou ld b e a b reac h o f a m i "lemn compact to confiscate the property of the Church of Ireland. They must consider the circumstances under which s he Union teas rassed, and risk them elves whether the Far siareents b oth in Ireland and England did not give addi . Ner• ority to the maintenance of the Established Church. With rjfere n tlst ce to the Maynooth Bill it was stated • h e Emancipation Act could not have pa sed if the property o f the Established Church in Ireland was not understood to r emai n untouched. If they adopted this principle what effect it have unon every other description of property? Let them look to the forfeited estates in Ireland, allowing that iht:tie h °liiing the m b ecame or i g i na ll y possesse d b y ac t s o f de ter rid spoliation, were they justified now in going back a property of this description ? If the Hon. Gentleman would deal in this mariner with church property, he would affect all other pro pert), to the same extent.---( Hear, hear. ) There were fir u njust tehee many Act s o f P ar li ament. w hi c h m i g ht b e h e ld equally lget ue'Ys Let them look at the contract existing ? He did not t 'lrk favour of the Bill on the grounds of that contract, area , etZl- as there was an understanding they were not justified , t kin g it, and they were doubly fortified in ti.,,ita.tcha,rgument with reference to the Established which was a solemn endowment in the : in s : of the Act of Unhin Ile believed it involved the i; ! nn ; of r epudiation, and . the National Debt.—( Heas , .) the:to Pa "Y, with regard to the latter, that they would , - Pay it, as they had nothing to do with it, it was en e t of th e . f es the feeling of the people of thi s cou orefatners. ut no, •enurse ntrY was too deeply involved for them to take such a he m. ' th,ey believed that it was a national compact, and lie 'onsid e t the Property of the Church of Ireland might the aufa or i i re , d in the same light. Such a course would lower se of Parliatnent and shake their confidence in this e le n i r u in -- P to a great extent. lie had the evidence of an matect uer thatof that House ( Ale. Blake) on this subject, s titt:e bgreatlinkhe o c f onsidered the Protestant establishment Connexion between the two eountrie h s, ' seal Sing established by the fundamental laws of bliss ;• r t - 1 , and could notbe clistut he !without danger to all the _ Llnge which they derived. H e (Sir T. Fremantle) supporte . d Established Churchon hi her grounds. He thought it 0 duty of gestablishment *erne fthe State to maintain a religious ands e • a m i e n nn of Christianity should he maintained by the " e nid he subjet, in some respects, to the control and re - ;;7On of the State. The Roman Catholic Church did not ' l 3' with these conditions; the Established Church did, and eo, i i ' l a i d been connected with the State, and, as a Protestant, he he ' isi o _ n not consent to its subversion. He would ask .rare to Member ( Mr. Ward) what course teey to take? Were they to adopt the voluntary principle, i ni enclow all sects, or should they throw everything in Ireland . ti o a state of the greatest possible confusion? The appropri.- ;ssinl 26 , 0 00/. from the Church property in Ireland to the s}stance of the Roman Catholics, would be the ground for i ii r : n. ed a pplication s for a great deal more. They would be : iv 'ng a bone of contention for which they should not ceese __,hght for many years to coMe. It would create discontent 4,;(fieititerehigious animesity . in that . country, to an extent to l ie not had not been hitherto carried. The contest would fe e p O nly for power, but for money. What would be the .ing of the Roman Catholics? They would say that they got but a miserable inss a i mee t,—( Hear, hear. ) Would it (:).nsatiqactory to the Protestants? While they withheld any . 1 :1I r. g from them, they would consider themselves aggrieved G n _ Ll ess Nor would those who were agitating for a national ma y,enrnent be bribed from prosecuting their purpcse, and made more firm supporters of the British Government by any e s _ ne , c ssion of this sort ?—( Hear, hear.) The Protestants it 4 nd be very much indisposed to continue their attachment to st er n a ; their best supporters would become in that CA.O, ~ p "a Ps, their most deadly enemies. The Right Hon. Gen an then referred to statements made in a work called b„ Ireland and its Rulers," which he said appeared to be written by gentleman well acquainted with the two countries, arid in e. s n . oh it was remarked that the abolition of the Irish Church '(•-•1;eablishrnents would be a heavy blow to the Union.-- ri e IT. ' b ear.) The feeling of the Protestants against such i,raPPopriation would be as strong in England as _ eland, which was shown by the many petitions which had Crowded the table of the House.—(Hear, hear.) It was stated was athat the existence of the Established Church in Ireland deni,nstonstrous insult and inlet.) , to the people of Ireland. He e hat such was the feeling there. He wanted to know an'inisn,. possession of property by one particular party could . be Possession lie rest of the community. He must consider the property, wheth er b y a corpora t ion or a private stanceth a t a.raone p a rticular church, as an accidental circum t not a - Nils' an insult, an injury, or a degradation o eo die not posses s it. It was notions were • turyi ere quite clear th . at . toheense entirely removed in the earlier part of this std enwe:urithagtist! Rome o Catholics disclaimed any desire to in ..tesrtferia teoproperty of the Established Church, and they t bat that effect in their petitions when they came purpose of House for relief. They used those expressions for the ...eke that thneegativing the possibility of their entertaining the possession of property by the Established Church ;i l l: an insult or an injury' to them. In 1808, in their petitions tt. they stet that they did not repine at their possession or envy i n He was inclined to think the Protestant Church was justified ,nuni?.intaining its rights, and at the same time he was . Is t er 'w Y prepared to admit that to those rights many duties iu attached. The grant to Maynooth could not be taken ki t h light of an act of restitution. It was consistent rn," austice, and not in the least at variance with the lal itY or principle of the Established Church. He there °re trusted the House would support the Government in carrying the Bill. Sir WALTER JAMES very much agreed with his Hon, "fiend, who had just sat down, that grave and technicali _i n blectio ns m i ght be p l ace d aga i ns t th e mot i on o f t h e on. liicrnber for Sheffield. If the Hon. Gentleman carried his P a int the H ouse would be going ascertain the Ecclesiastiea into a Committe e Revenues of the I rish Ch u r c h, instead of going into Committee on the government Bill. He thought also that there were grave constitutional objections to the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield. Looking at the importance of the Act of , Union, which could not be classed among the common Acts of I ao le nient, he thought it would be insulting the Irish Protestant Church if they were to go into Committee to ascertain the ° i,tl!rit..and power of its revenues, instead of for considering a ,i which simply had for its object the endowment of the College of Maynooth. When he stated that grave technical and constitutional objections might be made against themo lion, he felt a l so b oun d t o con f ess th a t h e th oug ht the subject of years were the Irish Church must, before many Paused, come seriously under the consideration of the House. li Niecting es he did, the faith of that Establishment, and ad ' rin g its creed—devoted, as he was, to its liturgy, and to everything which ever had or ever would belong to it—he s still th * it to be the duty of Parliament to take such a step a the () t i e Proposed by Government. He had been anxious to address the House upon the subject of the Bill, because he . had . r . e .; "iv " many serious representations from large bodies f hi :.°orly'tituents, praying him to offer his earnest opp t ositio i n e w t o o oit t i h j e , ernment of the Right lion. Baronet upen however have been ashamed of hiasself had ie give i n t, an t y t countenance to these representations. All his family ha,. .ee hip,n!PPorters of Catholic Emancipation, and he thought it was duty still to continue favourable to the same spirit of ,Con n.cessio Mr. Pitt intended the Act of Union to be c ac t e h o o rn , o - Pa!iied by an Act for the payment of the Roman a i restaood. Amongst those who had made representations to Upon this subject, there was a body of persons whom eot Tor tlll4,_em4i.n not pass by without expressing his sincere . r .p no They were Wesleyan Methodists, than whot ti , n done so mush to advance the cause of the Chris- Cat theln religion. When he rememb,•red the fields in wine sleYan Methodists laboured, though perhaps not like the holic priests, whom they had so often reviled—when thishe re sic, that, in the mining and colliery villages o 1-" l kingdom he always saw the Wesleyan minister . wi . t f h the Bible in his hand, spreading the truths of Christianity, ',irk, advocating the principles cf the Gospel, he felt hound h o e , S i de him his sincere though humble respect.—( Hear, this ) The practical views which had been taken o l f i c l ue 'tion by many Honourable Gentlemen or at a " f e n ls t' by the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor I t ' es t l E zehequer and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Seere- Mer Y e 'or Irelandwas, that it was simply a small measure for and ti, Y inc reasing a grant frem 8,0('0/. to 26,000/. per annum, had Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh isras why if they consented to pay 8,0001. for wretched 5, should the refuse 26,000/. for comfort and cleanliness. Nor' for his ar y t hld net take so narrow a view of the lil e- "• considered it, so far as his fellow-countrymen anevconcerned, a large and conciliatory measure, involving, H o u s e' e lY to lead to many important results. He wished the I se i, to look at the conciliatory spirit in which the mea:eue and' ee n received in Ireland—(Cries of " Hear, hear ") to 6,,then to say whether it was net more just the ••••°' a t the measure - rather as one of a series of measures itsoniin a single measure. It was so looked upon in Ireland, , as so considered b ' the Cork Southern Reporter, which rl.its'rPe!ited the feeling o y f the principal Catholics in Ireland. ajenelieved the Catholic clergy of Ireland would be to f tnleerPt.the additional boon, if it was given them in a spirit o th e al n:m and kindness; but then, if that were done, of course ejquestion came home t o him, " Where is the money to oi_ie fro m ?), bl Well, th en , if it did not come f rom th e p eo pl e y.esland, h e was bound to ask himself was he doing justice fellow -countrymen, by saying to them, " You pay for for own chur c h on account of conscientious scruples—you pay eru nt a Y chur c h a l so, and now you must pay for another. ' He t h e hound in this instance, not only to look to the interests of rest:l4los Church, but he was bound also to look to the inte eers!,°f what his flight Hon. Friend the Member for the Uni t.: tc,yhootfoOh x o f f o E rd o ealled "the nearer and dearer institutions of gland," and he cautioned the House not to turn his dissenting fellow-countrymen against that Church. 14)' oonld not do anything. which would give a severer blow, _.,i/e heavier discouragement to that Church, which he be lo t te l now rested upon the affections of the people, and which, „,iti.°o truthful words of Mr. Hallam, "is sustained by, and notice asset for the people."—(Hear, hear.) He wished to sh is , before he sat down, some of the religious objections to gm'eT,eaasure. It was said that it was not their duty to propa seh„,`-• tholicism ; and here he would take the liberty of asking atar v ass Catholicism ? There might be error of various kinds, Wita e r r e i .n t might be so slight or so insignificant compared ev en e many truths which they disseminated with it, that sl ot `ne best Christians could not say that his own creed did erii4itts:tain some portion of error. Error, on the other ha! , d, so deny? he so false, so abominable, and contain in it something for e , , anti-Christian that it was their bounden duty to come steti . a e r s u and resit it. He did riot believe Rome was either ,ottessehristian or idolatrous, and yet his Hon. Friend, in his all ti4o..nee,leelieved Rome to be anti-Christian, and adopted Pre sen r bigoted expressions in the petitions which had been Ca sere i - ed aeainst the Bill. Now although he saw much in the be aa "' °I Rome to de lore he was far from believing it to Paes:(- anti- Christian . p ' Church,. for . it was able to pro (l4 trt.ith notwithstanding its many errors. tie i'ha 7i to o s Know any one proposition that was more the Church, f o u ael steShaaritndation of his belief altoether, than to to which our ancestors . belonged,. taught doctrines that it was perfectly impossible for any ttlie eel ii belonged to it to reach salvation. What must he s s of those gentlemen who came over to this country tt;lithese'aynooth College, when, as they advanced towards thas ) 811( 11 4 'e first thing that met their eyes was a dozen or 4Oti s . ra gamuffins carrying immense placards concerning I tral o r against the grant to Maynooth—with, on the one e oiau_ergreat gaunt walls of Westminster before them, and on b!ea ske " a e the comparatively finery work of Mr. Barry What, t!sk tot Oi Must be their feelings but those of distaste, if not of r tss slid ° r the charity or benevolence of England.—(Cheers.) one litti . t look to the consistency of the arguments used upon - "ltd. or the other; but, taking the whole of them into the Right Hon. Baronet opposite ( Sir J. Graham), with the full consent of many Gentlemen i i her Majesty's Council, and whatever lion. Gentlemen may thisik of the Refirm Bill, it was one of those points upon which the two parties were at issue. He would venture to say that, from first to last, if there was a single article of the union which ought to be considered more fundamental and inviolable than another, it was that which settledithe comparative numbers of the two parties to the measure who were to sit in that House. He therefore treated the objection to the article of the union as frivolous. But even if the article of the union was all that the defenders of the Established Church asserted for it, did that prove the Established Church to be a good thing ? —( Hear, hear.) Then he heard something about the Catholic oath. Well, supposing even that that oath ought to be taken in the spirit in which many persons considered it should, did that prove that the Established Churc h in Ireland was a good thing?—(Hear, hear.) When lie was told that Roman Ca tholic laymen and prelates, when they were struggling to be relieved from the disabilities which pressed upon them, had no objection to see the Protestant Church continue, could any proof be derived from that , that t he Protestant Establishe d Church was best for that country ? ( Hear, hear. ) Then there were objections to the form of the motion. It was said that was an inconvenient time to more the quest ion. These were merely accidental objections ; but were there any arguments to show that this was a good institution? Then again—but he was almost ashamed to notice such an argument —the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland— he was surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have made use of it—said " that if you adopted this motion you would unsettle the security of all landed property." Did not the Right lion. Gentleman see the great difference between property in which some person had a vested interest, and pro perty in which no party hail a vested interest ?—( Hear, hear. ) The Right Hon. Gentleman might as well have said that in 1817, when that House resolved prospectively to abolish the offices of auditor and teller of the Exchequer, that they were going to unsettle all the vested and funded property in the country, unless when Lord Granville died an auditor of the Exchequer was appointed to succeed him to do nothing, or when Lord Camden died that some person should be appointed as teller to do no thing.—(Cheers and laughter.) There was, then, a wide dis tinction between the two cases—a distinction which he felt con fident the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite ( Sir Robert Peel) at least would fully recognize. But, after all, what were they doing but shifting and evading the question? Had they heard in that House one word as to treating this subject in the only way in which it ought to be treated by any statesmanF— ( Hear, hear. ) Had they ever heard any person say the Established Church was a good institution ? Did it answer any one of the purposes for which an established church ought to be instituted? Had they ever heard that? Had they heard it, or anything of the kind to-night? Did any divine, did any speculative writer, did any person who ever wrote in defence of an established church, put it upon any grounds in which the Church of Ireland, as it now existed, could be supported ? ( Hear, hear.) Why, there was not a single ground on which the defenders of an established church supported such an insti tution, which was not a satire on the Established Church of Ire land. There was not a single authority for an established church, come from where it might, whether from Protestant or Catholic, Conservative or Liberal, from a divine of the Church of Eng land, or a divine of the Church of Scotland, from which it could not be shown that the Irish Church was so great an abuse that it could hardly be conceived how it existed.— ( Hear, hear.) Was anything to be found like it in the whole world ? Was there an instance to be found except Ireland, where the Church of the minority was established in opposi tion to the great mass of the people? Such a case was only to be found amongst themselves. From the While Sea to the Mediterranean, from the Volga to the Atlantic, there was no where an instance of a great establishment being given to a small minority. From Mormonism in America to Mahomedanism in Asia, it was not to be found. In some places there was the voluntary system, in several places there was a church connected with the State, in other places there were churches receiving pay which were not in connexion with the State, but in no place except Ireland did the church of the minority enjoy its establishment. In Eng land, the Established Church was the Church of the majority. In Scotland, the Established Church was the Church of the majority. He did not know whether it was so now, but, at all events, it was not the Established Church of a small minority. In their colonies they had done much for religion, but even those dependencies of the British Crown where the people were attached to obscene and bloody auperstitions, they did riot establish a church for the minority. Whoever thought of parcelling out Bengal and the Carnatic into curacies ? There was only one country in the whole world which presented the spectacle of a population of eight millions of people endowing an Established Church for eight hundred thouaand.—(Cheers.) He had heard it argued at other times, and that night, that the prosperity and intelligence of the country belonged to those who professed the Protestant faith. That went directly the other way. He could conceive only two cases in which pro perty aught to prevail over numbers. One of those cases was where the object of the institution was the preservation of property—for instance, in a railway company the man who had five hundred shares ought reasonably to have more votes than five persons who had hut one share each. The other case was where you wished to have a qualification to jndge of a man's intellect. As a test of the intelligence of men, such a qualifi cation was indeed the only test that could be applied in certain cases. That was the reason, he apprehended, why, in certain cases which required a higher intelligence and greater judg ment, they selected special jurors in the place of the ordinary common jurors ; but none of these cases applied to a Church Establishment.—( Cheers.) So far from that being the fact, when you institute a church, you ought not to think of one rich man being equal to five poor men, but of one poor man being equal to five rich men—( Heir, hear)—for, in the first place, the public ordinances of religion were of more import ance to a poor man than a rich man. He did not deny the im portance of those ordinances to men of all ranks ; but the cir cumstances in which the rich man was placed—his being able to have recourse to the best works on the subject of divinity, being able to hold communion with the minds of such men as Barrow, Leighton, and Hooker, rendered those ordinances of less importance to him than to the poor man. The poor man had no such books, and even if he had, he had no time to read them, and they would be of no more advantage to him than to a Hottentot. The difficulty was, in the case of the poor man who had no other food than potatoes for himself and family, but was yet obliged to sell his pig in order to pay the religious teacher.— ( Hear, hear.) He was in favour of an Established Church himself. He thought there were great evils in the voluntary system. If not prepared to take the same view of the volun tary system as many of his Hon. Friends—it was not for the sake of Lords and Baronets, wealthy merchants and country gentlemen—they would have whatever religious teaching they wanted—they would have churches. ' cathedrals, organs, com munion plate, and all that conferred dignity and pomp on re ligious worship—it was not such as these he pitied, but the poor man who, out of his hard earnings, was obliged to pay ss. a year to the Church. Cries of " Hear, hear.") Take the alternative. Would they have him go without religious instruct ion altogether? That would be a great calamity, not only to himself but to society. Was he, then, to pay for it ? All must say it would be a great hard ship from an income so moderate.—(Hear, hear.) Was it to be derived from charity ? That was a most precarious and most humiliating mode of supporting a Church. Ile thought it was most desirable that throughout the country, from one end to the other, even in its remotest parts, there should be houses of worship where the great body of the people could be reli giously instructed, and would have a priesthood to which they could have ready access, not as a matter of favour, hut as a mat ter of right.—( Hear, hear.) But did that apply to the Church of Ireland ? In arguing about the English Church, the advocates of the voluntary system opposed it, because of the nature of its foundation. They urged many arguments against it, whilst its advocates urged many in its favour ; but, on the whole, he thought the pre sduari,, e o h t English n uo g rue l , s t l e t r op C fo l s u lir r ne c gl h a . nwd; B i g a hi t tt s w — h wa e a n lsl f hp o oe u r n ci t rma t en h c e thereto w a s a w• r a g s i ne n of again s ta hv ll the weights were in same ut t lia l it i gic e abicenh suut church hld s , scale.—( aoil Ir f ish e( defending Hear ,.o w ealthy—t h at auiti h ,hyt e —h— a e r at e afd i f e e l "L o t hear. ) Church n l sc ‘ ' ti rtt the rchurchEnglandgumno a r gu me nts sw t h owu e l h which, reversing every principle on which a Christian church ought to be founded, " filled the rich with good things, and sent the hungry empty away. "—( Hear, hear.) But there was another end which it was urged this Church would attain. It was admitted that it did not administer instruc tion to the great body of the people, but it advanced to an other end. What was it? I was a proselitising church. The people were not yet Protestant, but the Church would make them so. At present there were but shepherds, but it was said the shepherds would find for themselves flocks. Ho had heard that same argument ten or twelve yeers ago, when a proposal was made to reduce the number of Irish bishops. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford then made use of a remarkable phrase, which he well recollected, " We must make allowance for the expansive force of Protestantism."—( Laughter.) And the Hon. Gentleman further added that " Bishops may be now too many, but they will be soon too few." The Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire said the other night, speak-. iug of the missionary character of the Church of Ireland, for he said that Church had a missionary character, that it was in such a position as soon to spread the Protestant faith through out Munster and Connaught. He must say that if this lan guage had been held in the Councils of Queen Elizabeth he couid conceive there would be some reason in it—if Sir William Cecil or Sir Nicholas Bacon were called in to discuss the ques tion he could conceive their entertaining such opinions, and using such terms —they might say " We have but a few Protestants in Ireland now, but we, who know how rapidly the Protestant faith spreads— we, who remember when Martin Luther first began to preach in Wurtemberg, and now see one-half of Eu. rope embracing Protestant opinions —we, therefore, expect that Protestantism will be speedily diffused throughout every part of the sister country, and that it will soon become the Church of the people, in fact, as well as in this country." Such might have been the sentiments of Cecil and his colleagues, and they might have been excused for such reasoning, but when this Church had existed in Ireland from 1560 to 1845 when they had before them the experience of 285 years, it seemed incredible to him how gentlemen of ability could hold such language.—( Hear, hear.) And what could he done for a church that had not been done for this church? Had it not been loaded with honours and dignities—had it not been fenced and protected, up to a late period, even by penal laws—and as to money, was there ever on the face of the earth a set of rectors who received so much for doing so little —or a set of bishops and rectors who received half so much for doing twice as much duty ?---(Hear. hear.) And after all what had they to show : —The most zealous Roman Catholic population on the face of the earth.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Where the Protestants were 200 years ago, there they were still—( Hear, hear.) They had not only failed in trampling over the domain of the Old Faith, but their business was to maintain their own pale. The Roman Catholics were still ten to one against the members of the Established Church. —( Hear, hear.) Now, he should like to ask lion. Gentle men opposite, whose zeal for Protestantism was so great, to what could they impute this grand failure:? If he were to speak of it as a Roman Catholic might be supposed to do, he might exclaim, " The divine protection has preserved our Church from great danger, and the same Pro vidence that turned the curses of the Prophet into blessings, and destroyed the Assyrian host, will render our Church victorious over all the policy of eminent statesmen." But what further arguments were used—that the tenets of Pro testantism were unknown for a long period to the Catholic people of Ireland; but during ten generations of men they had remained the same. Yet, notwithstanding Scripture and rea son were on their side—they had, he repeated, Scripture, rea son, and wealth and power on their side, over a naked, destitute, and oppressed people. Tho Catholics of Ireland were not Catholics — not which Catholics the m Protestanterely i nn a faithn e. existed, in wh ich Roman Catholic doctrines were so tenaciously and so gene rall y held as in Ireland? After 300 years they m w e a r s e ly there lukewarm m in Eu rope i n any ewa r country could boast of little; more than an array of bishops, deacons, and rectors. But this was the natural consequence of the of Government, to perform its work and as the mere machinery either loved or hated—just on the which theyyursued—it flowed from treating a Church manner, whither loved or which was to work on in the same Manchester were dialiked, but they hated. The yeomanry policyattain its end without being c in same principle as the- army, or the navy , or tin poliee force, do in Ireland Th . ey forced a thdir end. What did they They uered country. posted them in Lostile Church on a conq continued their operations, dispersed the popu ace, and ful fi lled t h a they were oved or hated proselytises it wa It did not matter whet e. so with the Church. The Church attempted to he same manner as their garrisons. l Garrisons were natural. not t t it failed. He must observe that parochial clergy were not rines, they mu t all h t h o e w fi e v t t e e r s t th fo4 m m a ig k h in t g d c iff o e n r verertgs ardin . Tgh its doct Church of Rome, which, consideration. he conceived, was the only way in which he could explain what occurred to his mind upon the subject. lie looked upon this as ore of the most serious questions that could occupy the attention of Parliament ; he conceived that State policy demanded that it should be carried out, and legis lative price plea did not, forbid it. He had been reading over some public documents recently upon the subject of the Irish church, and he hail found by them that sums of money, to the amount of H. 700,000/., had been granted to the Episcopal Church in Ii elard, independent of revenues which the Esta blishment hail from other sources, within a certain period ; that the Presbyterians in Ireland had received within the same petiorl, 866,0 0/. ; but the sum total of the grants made to she Roman Catholics within the same period was only 365.000/. , for nothing more nor less than the support of Maynooth. Well. then, the people of Ireland had heard their religion abused, and this miserable pittance b e g rud g ed them, and - could they in England therefore wonder that. the Irish people should have a feeling of soreness at the injustice done them, and that that feeling, should have spread over the country from one end to the other ?—( Hear, hear. ) He would contend for it that religion had uothing to do with this question. Reli gion did not contradict conscience, though it was founded upon it. The arguments in its favour might be supernatural, but they were n t unnatural, or such as should force a Cover-rime t to an act of injustice. Ile was much struck, on the first, night of this debate, at what had !taken place in that House. He had seen petitions from the Dissenters, and from the towns and from the counties, some few from the Established Church party ; and, last of all, came the miserable petition that had been presented from some place in Ulster.—( Hear. hear.) But yet, when all that display of bigotry and fanatical passion had subsided and gone down. then there remained that still small voice within all, which told them they ought to do justice, to love mercy, walk humbly—not as Protestant ascend ancy men, not as violent bigots—but to walk humbly in the sight of the great Creator of the universe.—( Hear, hear. ) Mr. M. GIBBON said that the lion. Member opposite ap peared to have the faculty of seeing further into future results than the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government. He had said that the day was not far distant when the Legislature would be compelled to take into consi deration the whole question of the Irish Church and Church property in Ireland, and in that he (Mr. Gibson) fully con• curred.—( Hear, hear.) lie had heard the Right Honour able Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland's speech, and he should say he was surprised at the Right Honourable Gentleman's doctrines.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had spokon of the property of the Irish Church as a thing most sacred—( Hear, hear) —as a thing par taking of Divine origin—and, therefore, was never to be touched.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, the Right Hon. Gentle man's argument amounted to this--that if there happened to be but ono Protestant in the whole of Ireland. still the pro perty of the Irish Protestant Church should remain untouched. —( Hear, hear.) If such were the Right Hon. Gentleman's argument. he (Mr. M. Gibson) would wish to know how he would reconcile the transference of the twenty-five per cent. Church property from the Church to Irish landlords, which should have gone to a fund for the benefit of the Irish people? —( Hear, hear)—or how lie could reconcile the taking the Church cess out, of the hands of the Protestant clergyman, and leaving it to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to administer ? ( Hear, hear.) With regard to the proposition of his lion. Friend, he would say that they must admit the principle that Maynonth should he endowed, before the House should be called upon to the consideration of the question as to what funds that expense should be defrayed from, because it was only upon those grounds that he considered that the fee-simple of the property of the Irish Church was vested in the State.—( Hear, hear.) He had not had an op portunity, on the second rending of the Bill. to state his views upon giving a permanent endowment to May nooth ; but lie quite agreed with the Hon. Member for Stock port, that this was neither a religious nor a theological question, but a question of education, and that upon those grouuds the Government were justified in making it.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think that the Government of a country should inter fere in matters of religion in taking s uch a step, or say that questions of religion should form a ground for refusal, for that would be adopting the principle that the religion of a country should form aground for giving or withholding certain civil ad vantages.—( Hear, hear.) He conceived that the State had an interest in the education of all men. He looked upon the Roman Catholic priests as men, and therefore they should be educated.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He would ask, was not that the logical deduction ? The Government were not hound to provide the particular plan of training that the people should undergo. The State had merely to provide the funds, and, that done, the public had the advantage by the State having been the means of raising the moral s tandard of her Majesty's snbjects. He contended that there was no system of education which had not religion more or less mixed up with it ; and therefore, when the public were taxed for education, they were also taxed for religious instruction.—( Hear, hear.) As to the proposition for defraying this expense out of the church property funds, he would say, he did think it a very just ap prot.riation of these funds. The church funds were intended to be applied to the best uses to which they could be put—the Government was the party to decide that; but he would say the very best uses to which they could be put was the advance ment of education ; when these were found to be too much for Protestant purposes, then he could not see why the surplus should not be appropriated to some useful purpose.—( Hear.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite who opposed this motion had nut shown that the Protestant congregations In Ireland had been increasing; on the contrary, it was well known that they had been decreasing ; while, on the other hand , the Roman Catholic congregations ha ' d been, year after year, increasing in Ireland in a largsr ratio than formerly.—(Hear, hear.) On these grounds, then, he would say that State en dowments should not be confined to Protestant establishments. If the House went minutely into this question, they would find not only that the great majority of the lower classes; of the Irish people were Roman Catholics, but that the great bulk of the peasantry who were Protestants had a leaning to Catholi city. lie had heard of one parish in Ireland, in which there was not one Protestant; but the Protestant rector, expecting the visitation of the Bishop, to inquire if such was the fact, borrowed the Roman Catholic congregation from the parish priest, and thus, when the Bishop arrived, he saw a very thronged attendance of Protestants in the church.—( Laugh ter. ) He believed that ro part of Europe or of the civilised world could present such an anomaly as the Established Church in Ireland ; and, do what they would to the contrary, l do , it and d u yei n st t g i wouldaes disgrace.—(Hear.) — e s e r o ii‘teYt solved. sweeping n t )r o g h t e m b H i c e s ß a country w n ig s ohu v‘ t d e n i s e o anaysa. this s t ra e lod d in g Irish seehtooqfpru,petrosetsaiiird question athico,aha,idit not ad mitted the difficulty of it : but he (Mr. Gibson) would say that it never wou ld b e, unt il a ll ascen d ancy were done away with, for there should be no ascendancy cf any sort.--( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He did not think that the State should grant to Ireland this favour, not from fear, but f rom a strong, claim to be placed conviction that the Irish people had a upon ( terms of perfect equality with any other portion of the inhabitants hear.) Nothi ng but re tants of the British nation. —(Near, equality of civil and r e ligious rights would do ; and if that course we amalgamation of the I r i s h and te adopted, then would there be a real nglishtop let,haatndthbeothbe a happy and contented people.—(Ch eers .) Hon. Sir J. WALSH said it would appear' heoimp Member opposite was an enemy to all Church Establishments; but he (Sir J. Walsh), being an advocate for such Establish ments, as most necessary to the happiness of mankind, he would oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, because it would strike a blow at the Established Church, both in this country and Ireland. The llonourable Member for Sheffield had stated certain grounds, with which he (Sir J. Walsh) fully concurred, though he could not concur in his conclusions.—( Hear.) lie admitted that three of the provinces of Ireland contained a dense popu lation, the majority of whom were Roman Catholic., but there were a great number of Protestants in those districts who possessed wealth and intelligence, and were, therefore, a most important part of the population. He said this, in order to prevent the existence of the impression that there was no religion in Ireland but Roman Catholic. From what he heard during those debates, it would appear to him as if there could be nothing gained on one side which was not taken from the other. A most unfortunate state of things existed in Ireland, destructive of the internal repose and tranquillity of the country, which it was the duty of the Government to remedy, as far as they could.—(Hear, hear.) So long as there was a feelin g in Ireland that she was treated with injust ice and humiliation, so long would a feeling of irritation and estrangement towards this country exist. The Government of this country ought, there fore, to apply a remedy to those real evils under which Ireland was suffering ; but that was not to he at the expense of others; and at the present juncture he thought that the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, was ill-timed, for it might do much to neutralise the good effects of the measure proposed by her Majesty's Government. He admitted that the Church of Ireland was in an anomalous position—(Hear, hear) ;—hut the state of Ireland was quite as anomalous as that of the Church. He thought it was much better frankly to accept the boon proposed by her Majesty's Government, than to excite feelings of irritation in Ireland. Nothing would have a more injurious effect in Ireland than any concessions that would increase the danger of the Protestant Church in that country. If the present motion were carried, so far from tranquillising Ireland, it would have a directly opposite effect. He hoped that the measure of her Majesty's Government re specting Maynooth would he followed up by others tending to soothe the Catholic population, but he trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet would consider that the honour and faith of the country were pledged to maintain in its integrity the Protestant Church of Ireland, and he trusted that he would not, in any plans which he might have in view for the amelioration of Ireland and the Catholic Church, do any thing which would have ;he slightest tendency to render less efficient or less secure the Established Church in that country.—( Hear. ) Mr. MACAULAY said he was desirous of catching the Speaker's eye, because it so happened that he had never yet had an opportunity of fully declaring his views on the im portant question now before the House. He was not in the country at the time when this subject was before discussed in Parliament, when it had almost thrown every other question into the shade—which convulsed the whole political world — which divided the administration of Lord Grey, and overthrew the short-lived administration of the Right Hon. Baronet.— ( Hear, hear.) The motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield went to the whole question. It was true he only asked, indeed, for 26,0001. from the Irish Chores, but he understood his motion to go to the whole question. It appeared to him to resemble an ejectment from a single farm, for the purpose of trying the title to the whole property.—(Cheers.) lie did not conceive that any person could reasonably vote for his Hon. Friend's proposition who was not prepared to go further.—( Hear, hear.) And, on the other hand, he conceived that every Gentleman who opposed his Hon. Friend's proposition, must be understood to do so with the feeling that the whole of the property of the Irish Church ought to continue exclusively in Protestant hands.—( Hear, hear. ) The question then was, whether the Established Church was an institution which ought or ought not to be maintained ? He should have thought it a t ruisrn—though the discussion upon the subject led him to think that it was one which had not occurred to any Gentleman on the opposite side of the House who had spoken upon it—that when the Legislature was going to decide whether a great institution ought or ought not to be maintained, the first thing to inquire into was, whether it were a g ood or a bad institutio n . His own opinion was, that the Irish Church was a bad institution—that it was a very bad institution. — (Hea r, hear.) Th a t was his deliberate opinion, lung entertained, confirmed by much observation and reflection, and an opinion he thought, he could support by most unanswerable arguments. He was not now speaking rhetorically, or with exaggeration, nor did he intend, nor was it his wish to excite any angry feelings, but it was his deliberate opinion, that of all institutions exist ing in the civilised world, the Established Church in Ireland was the most utterly absurd and indefensible—( Cheers) —and he wished for no better proof of that than the course which had been always taken by its advocates—by the course which had been taken by its advocates that night.—( Hear, hear.) He would only ask any Gentleman if he had ever heard any person argue the question on its merits.--(l - ;ear , hear.) He had heard, indeed, of the articles of the union, which ought not to be violated. Well, but there were articles of the union spite as important as the article relating to the Established Church—those which re gulated the relative number of Members which were to sit in that House as Irish Members. But those articles had been altered by that House, and upon the motion too of the Noble Lard the Secretary for the Colonies, with the fall consent of admit the force of its tactics, employed Jesuits and other orders of religious men in the work of conversion. He (lid not recollect in the whole range of civil history of any en dowed parochial clergy effecting any great work of proselytism. In Ireland there were many strong reasons why the clergy should not busy themselves in works of conversion ; they were a visibly endowed clergy, and had no great motive for zeal ; and accordingly the Bible, through which they meant to proselytise, had not been translated into the Erse language until 125 years after the Reformation, and then it bad not been translated at the expense. of the Irish Protestant Church, but at the private expense of that greet and good man, Robert Boyle. The Right Hon. Gentleman then quoted the opinions of Dean swift as to the idleness and riches of the protestant clergy, and observed that it would be remembered how the revenues of the richest sees in Ireland were squandered on the shores of the Mediterranean ; and his epistles were to be found, not like those of Peter to his flocks, but in the correspondence of Lady Hamilton. What a contrast between the ministers of the one Church and those of another—the one revelling in wealth, and with nothing to do, and the other visiting the couches of the sick in their wretched cabins, and from scanty means ministering to their temporal as well as spiritual wants. The Right Hon. Gentleman then quoted the oeinions of Mr. Ilume regarding benefits anti evils of the vo l un t ar y system, and observed that the expedi enc y of a State Church, and the the Irish Church had exemplified all the evils which Mr. Hutne said belonged, not only to the State Church, but to the voluntary system ; for it had, on the one hand, a wealthy and indolent priesthood, and on the other, ministers whose. position forced them into every description of excitement and agitation. The Right Hon. Gentleman went on to speak of the miseries which Scotland for twenty-eight sears had endured under a Protestant State Church, when Lords Lauderdale and Dundee commanded there, and asked what the condition of S co tl an d wou ld be, if the established reli gion of this country were yet kept up in Scotland — th e same bitter feelings of enmity w hi c h ex i s t e d between the people of Ireland and England wou ld ex i s t b e t we en those of England and Scotland, and England, distracted by those divisions, instead of being first in the rank of nations, would be inferior to many now much beneath her in. power, and influence, and digni t y . Anal what was the result which these proceedings had brought about ? Why, t h at I re l an d, i ns tead of proving a part of the strength h a d p rove d t h e wea k ne ss of the empire. What would th e y thi n k o f a p h ys i c i an who having two patients suffering und er prec i se l y the same complaint, had for a long time prescribed th e same reme dies for both, but having changed his course of t reatment , an d having found that it was the very remedy which not only abated the evil, but which cured the disease, yet refrained from adopting the same remedies for the other patient? They would believe that either he was dishonest to his profession, or that he had taken leave of his senses. And why was it that the same principles ehich applied to physic should not apply to politics? With the impression that what was good fur one portion of philosophy was good for another, he should give his support to the motion of his lion. Friend. It was not for him to say what the larger measure should be, but it was because the plea was set up for vested rights, for which he entertained the utmost respect, that he should give his support to the motion of his Hon. Friend.—( Hear, hear.) Such was the plea of a Conservative Ministry; but their proceedings on this question would give them a clue to the policy of her Majesty's Govern ment, and would give them a handle of which they would I of be slow to avail themselves. lie was not one of those depre cators, but he would tell the Right Hon. Baronet that he was giving a lesson to Ireland which it was bad for a ruler to give, but which a people were: never slow to learn —that the way to obtain concession within was to agitate for it without.. What was it that had obtained the concession of Catholic eman cipation, but the agitation which had been occasioned by the French revolution ? And what. was the conduct of the Govern ment now ? They were allowing every measure which, while in Opposition, they had most strenuously opposed— that policy for which Fox, and Grattan, and Grenville, and Wilberforce, had battled, for the granting of which, during the first two months, they possessed peculiar advantages.—(Great cheering.) What had been the course of the party now in power ? Why that they had, when in opposition, opposed every act which, when in power, they had been the most strenuous advocates for. But what, on the other hand, had been the conduct of the party opposed to that?—why, that they had redeemed every pledge which they had given when they were in a position to render that redemption useful, and it was from no party pur pose, but simply from conviction, that he gave his support to the present measure. Did Hon. Members suppose that if the monster meetings had never taken place, or if there had been no disturbance in America, that the same measure fur concilia tion would ever have been introduced? For an answer to this inquiry, they need only refer to what had been the conduct of the Government now in power when they assailed the Go vernment of Lord Normanby ? Where would have been the present measure but for the opposition from Mr. O'Connell and the Pope ? lie had blamed the conduct of the Irish Mem bers in 1843. He had been led into the conviction, that higher duties were to be performed by Members of that House, than the agitation of the public mind, or the discussion of local questions ; and he thought that the Irish Memb ers wou ld h ave been better fulfilling thei r dut y to their country by attending in their places in that House, than by directing the move ments of any party in Ireland, however great. He had been led to praise the conduct of the lion. Members for Dungarvon, for Roscommon, and for Waterford, for rendering as they had done the advantage of those counsels which all allowed to be great to the public service, which would otherwise, accord ing to his former conception, have been dissipated in popular declamations; but he had learnt to believe that the best place in which an Irish Member could serve his country was not within the walls of the British House of Commons, but amid the patriotic supporters of the Concilia tion Hall, Dublin. The Government had been insensible to the claims of Ireland till the disturbances in Canada had awakened them to a recollection of the value of Ireland to the British empire. Could they expect that any Irish Roman Ca tholic could entertain any very great displeasure at hearing the American frontier was disturbed, when he well knew that such a disturbance would lead to a restitution of his own rights ? He would ask, with their knowledge of the national character— with their acquaintance of the national susceptibility, whether they could possibly expect that any uneasiness should be awa kened by the disturbance of the Canadian empire ? The policy of the Government seemed to be to yield nothing to reason but everything to force, and the measure now before the House had been granted rather from a conviction of the necessity of this measure, than from any strict con formity with their predetermined opinions. Such had been the case when the Irish Municipal Bill had been passed—such was the case when the grant for Maynooth was under conside ration. Would they now say that the position of the Esta blished Church was no grievance ? They knew that it was felt as such by the great body of the Irish people. His (Mr. Macaulay's) object in giving his support to this motion was to render the union between the two countries one of pleasur able consent ; and his opinion now, as it was when he was a member of the Government, was that the principles of justice should be respected, let whoever would prefer the claims of justice; and he would do the same thing now freely, fairly, and consistently, if the whole of the American frontier were raging with the flames of war.—( Hear, hear.) If a new ca mp , under a new Bonaparte, were to be found at Boulogne, and England had to contend with the whole world in arms to preserve her place among the nations—he would say to the Government—what yo u grant, gran t freely; but , what y ou withhold, withhold fir m ly ; f or if th e y granted to concession what they withheld from reason, th e y were only multiplying complaint, and justifyi ng di sconten t. For ten mo nths he had had the whole machinery f or carry i ng this motion i nto full effect. They expected that the Ri g ht H on . Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would reply t h a t they were unable to accomplish that whi c h unthreatened they never at tempted, and that the Government now in power wculd be ready to s i n k a ll cons iderations for present expediency ; and then, w h en conv i c tions opened upon them, the Government, with th e Ri g h t H on . Baronet at its head, would suffer themselve s to b e drged throug h their difficultiestt by the same honest m en w h os e lently opposed, and were now ready to a dopt. b when am that man for a conscientious change in opinion or policy, in would reply to the many taunts which change was induced by a difference of circumstances or an lion. Baronet crease in knowledge. lie knew not if the Right d or that po li c y they had . o l nce e v d ir oo . ' se of the the Chancellor of the Exchequer would express his s • en be sufferings which he had to endure ; though he might te the other, yet it in clined to relieve the one or to commiser ate allow him was not his business to remove them. He woulddnnt r to ad_ self to speak in any terms of their public procee ingsdo. et he vise them how the public peace was to b e preserve , notification y would say that if the next mail were to briti r 'e e r rebellion in that Oregon was occupied—if there were a threaening•the American frontier—he well.' ail of the line Ire land tomorrow, and a fleet of thirty Frenchlt grant no more to he had hear agitation than he would to j ust i ce , for WO was necessary without force, and all tha t justiceuld grant all that had a right to demand. he h a d consulted only Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that, if have addressed the lie had in former House at all upon the present occasion, idaerable length upon debates addressed them at very consthat lie n ow could offer s his own feelings and wishes, he should not the same subject, and he was consc ious But the speech little, if anything new upon th e question. on. Member who ry or him (Sir J. last spoke rendered it imperatively necessa (elitis m in the Govern- Graham), holding as he d id a hi g h did not think it would ment, to trouble them ver y shortl y . be necessary for him to ad topics embraced in the which the House had heard f rom the Right H e farmer occasion Rigd ress H ed himself Gentlem toanthe 's vert speech, to all House wit the re topafe og rence to that very subject, and he con fessed ad h e c ould not help feeling somew hat a‘a surprised, cons idering the nature of the t wo measures brou g ht forward by her Majes t y' s Government—measures intended as conc iliatory—he repeated that he was somewhat sur p rised that, under the peculiar circumstances, the Right Honourable Gentleman should have brought to their consideration so m ne concluded with a hope that ju s tic e would lm o ut to Ireland, but the p ecu li ar ex r last address, f meted eeltiena f that hope fr om a p erson of hi g h authorit y like the c au b h be at asy pression of Right Hon. Gentlem an a ppeared to him (Sir J. Graham) likely to create a n evil impression out of d oors . I n t h e mat ter, of the Hon. Gentleman s sentiments regarding reproof, he (Sir J. Graham) from his heart agreed ; and he believed entrusted by her Majesty• that no Government duct of public affairs, would think or act o th erw i se. N ay, of tl believed that a majority people—not of Etig more, he lreland also, were land and Scotland, but of resolved to the last , extremity to preserve the ofunionnthe two countries pure and inviolate. With that sentiment h need scarcely say he cor dially introduced House a measure, agreed. — ( Hear, hear.) But her Majesty' s Government had to the o o f conciliation, and ed their intention of pursuing a conciliatory they had express He (Sir Jamespolicy.Graham) agreed with the opinion Right lion. Gentleman, that in expressed by the knd the rule of concilia tory measures of this Government ought to be, to grant them to a sense of justice, but to refuse them to the demands of agitation. Withresp e c t to this particular measure, the Right Hun. Gentleman had said that it was extorted from the fear of Government, and not from its jus tice.—( Hear.) How different was the sentiment of the Gallant Commodore the Member for Marylebone, that he would not have supported them on that question if he thought it had been extracted from the fears of her Majesty's Government.— (Cheers.) He would say that this measure, to far from hav ing been extorted by agitation—so far Was it from having any reference to a recent misunderstanding, to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had referred, that it had been deter mined on by her Majesty's Government long before, and before' that misunderstanding had arisen it had been announced by his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government. —(Cheers.) He appealed to the Right Hon. Gentleman himself and to the House, if his Right Honourable Friend had not at the close of the last session of Parliament announced the intentions of the Government with respect to this subject. —(Continued cheers.) There were persons not politically connected with the Government—he did not hesitate to name them—they were the members of the Irish hierarchy, to whom this measure had been announced, because it would have been the height of impolicy to have brought forward a measure of this kind, it would have been neglecting a most important con sideration, if her Majesty's Government had not, in such a case, consulted the heads of the Irish Church.— ( Hear, hear, and cheers.) lie said, then, that this mea sure, in its present shape, had been communicated before the end of the month of November, to the authorities to whom he had referred.—(Cheers.) The measure was therefore pre pared without the slightest reference to that misunderstanding to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had referred.—( Con tinued cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had further said that this measure had been extorted by the proceedings of Conciliation Hall.—( Hear, hear.) He would again repeat t until the repeal agitation had been overturned in Ireland, TB E SU N, LO NDON,_'IIII3RS DA N' EVENING, APRIL 24,,)845. nothing whatever would have :induced her Majesty's Minis ters to bring forward a measure of this kind. The monster meetings had been put down. Their lead ers had been submitsed to trial, and had been convicted.—( Hear, hear.) He admitted that in point of form, but not in point of merit, that conviction had been set aside.—( Cheers, and counter-eheers. ) Law, order, and com parative peacefulness now le evaded in Ireland, and though the Right Hon. Gentleman had pat a false construction on the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet in reference to the agita tion in Irela d and the misundersianding with the United States, he (Sir James Graham) would repeat that this mea sure was determined on, without the slightest reference to either of those events.— (Cheers. ) If the Right Hon. Gen tleman then was neither anthorised nor justified in making these observations, he (Sir James Graham) appealed to the House whether measures of this kind, W.ich were calculated to soften existing prejudices and extend more amicable feelings, should be blasted by such insinuations?— (Cheers.) He for one would not envy the success which might attend such efforts.—(Continued cheers.) lie greatly regretted the course taken by the Hon. Member for Sheffield on this question. What said he of the question before the House? He conceded that it was a good measure, that it ought to pass, and yet he offered an obstruction to its progress. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, had said that this was not a mere question of 26,0001., but the real matter at issue was, what Church should reign dominant in Ire land, whether it ought to continue the bad without endeavouring to make it better. The Right Hon. Gentleman, at the same time, had pointed out that there were certain limits beyond which her Majesty's Government should not go. He could speak for himself, that no change of opinion, that no argument in that House would induce him to admit the prin ciple that the Irish Church was an evil in itself, and ought to be abolished. On the contrary, he begged to state that all reflection convinced him, that his most anxious deliberations had confirmed him in the opinion that it was the duty of this country to maintain the Protestant Establishment in Ireland. He did not wish, in a matter of this kind, to speak reproachfully of Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House.—( Hear. ) He must say of the Honourable Member fur Sheffield, that no one had argued the question with more philosophical discrimination, unless it were the Noble Lord the Member for London, who entirely dissented from the views of the lion. Member for Sheffield.—(Hear, hear.) He did not know what the opinions of the Noble Lord might now be ; but, in 1838, when the Noble Lord brought forward a measure for a change in the property of the Established Church, he dis tinctly repudiated the principle of this motioh.—( Hear, hear. ) He ( Sir J. Graham) had heard nothing from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh to lead him to believe that the destruction of the Established Church in Ireland would be conducive to the prosperity of the country, or productive of more kindly feelings between the two great branches of the em pire.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh had said that in America there was no Established Church, hut that there the clergy of each religion, and all the sustenances of religion, were better upheld than in countries in which there were established religions, and those well en dowed. But he would ask the House, were the conditions of the two countries to fie compared?-( Hear, hear.) He felt, and he was sure the House would agree -with him, that to carry out an analogy would be impossible.—( Hear, hear.) That the proposition which the Hon. Member sought to establish— (A laugh)—was impracticable, could be proved by a reference to the fate of those Governments in whose time the lion. Alem ber had introduced it. Lord Grey's Government had felt it im. Possible to carry out the principle. Succeeding Governments gave way before the overwhelming difficulty,hut notwithstanding all the taunts thrown in the teeth of that Government, a mea sure relating to education in Ireland was carried without the intervention of the principle which the Hen. Gentleman now, for the fifth time, called upon the House to avow.—( Conser • vative cheers.) There were others more competent than he (Sir J. Graham) to speak upon this subject, and to go back to the times of the Stuarts, and other times to which reference had been made. He would only say, that the ministers of the Established Church had performed their duty.—(Cheers.) They had done so under more trying circumstances than any which could be contemplated by the opponents of this measure. —(Hear, hear.) He admitted that it was the chief object of an Established Church to minister to the religious wants of the whole population. —( Cheers.) But he did not think that the missionary character of the Established Church would be im paired by the measure of the Government ; and it was no part of their intention to transfer the revenues of that Church to the ;religion of the majority. The principles which he had hitherto avowed he still adhered to.—(Hear.) He objected alike to the extreme measures of the Bight Hon. Member for Edinburgh, and the analogous motion of the Hen. Member for Sheffield.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Coventry most conscientiously discarded any intention of endowing the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. Lord Plunkett stated that he considered that the Protestant Church in Ireland was the strongest bond of union between the two countries. All he would say was this, that he at that time foresaw, whatever their intentions might have been, that ulti mately this would be the consequence which we have arrived at for the first time.—(Loud cheers.) He understood the Member for Nottingham, on the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, for assistance to the Roman Catholic Church out of the funds of the Protestant Church, to give a denial of any such intention on his part. Notwithstanding he always foresaw that the inevitable effect of that motion would be the point to which they had now arrived. He never could agree to that proposition himself, and circumstances since had led him more and more to consider that preposition a dan gerous one, and he was now better assured of it. In the opinions he had already given expression to, he most sincerely and conscientiously adhered, and he was most anxious that the wants of the Roman Catholics should be supplied, and that through the measures they were now considering they should receive assistance in their education ; but he could not see that it would not render it more feasible to the Protestants of this country, that that assistance should be rendered through the spoliation of the Protestant Church of Ireland. He would adhere to the opinion which:he had heretofore stated, and would decidedly oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield. Mr. ROEBUCK said, that when the Right Honourable Baronet opposite undertook to oppose the motion of the Honourable Member for Sheffield, he (Mr. Roebuck) at least expected that he might divulge that some attempt should be made to answer the arguments of the Hon. Gantle man. It did not strike him that the Hon. Gentleman had attempted to answer the proposition offered by him.—( Cheers.) The only reason which he could deduce fur such a failure in this case was the want of argument to support a cause which the Hon, Gentleman found to crumble beneath him. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh stated that the Irish Protestant Church was at that time a worthless church, because it was instituted for purposes which were at this time utterly without value. It was a church which in a large portion of Ireland did not exist. For, let them under stand the meaning of the word church. They were con stantly confounding the word church with church establish ments. They were confounding the payment of a clergy who were giving consolation to a congregation—they were con founding the congregation itself, who constituted that Church, with those pastors who were appointed for the purpose of giving consolation: That was not applicable to Ireland ; for in a large portion of that country there was no Protestant congregation, and it now came to be considered, as the Right Hon. Gentle man had stated, that as this property had failed in its uses, how were they to give assistance but out of the property which remained in their hands ? The Government said it was a matter of high importance that this grant should be made, and the only question raised by the Hon. Member fur Sheffield was, where should she proceeds come from to supply this grant ? Was it to come from the pickets of the hard-working people of England, or from that portion of property which they had in their hands, of which the Protes tant use had entirely failed? They were not discussing—the Right Hon. Gentleman did not wish to introduce—any religious feeling on this occasion; but what did the Right Hon. Gentleman do? He turned round upon those who supported him, and said that they were now coming to touch the Protestant feeling of the people of England, and he himself blows the bellows to excite it.—( Cheers. ) They had supported him throughout, to the great risk of themselves, and this was a strange return for the support which they had given him.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Protestant Establishment was faithfully described by his Right Hon. Friend, and had it been attempted to be answered by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite ? Was it not, at this pre sent moment, the great ecclesiastical enormity of Europe ? ( Hear.) Was that description answered by the Right Hon Baronet ? What did he do when he found a murmur ? He told them to beware how they raised the Protestant hostility of England. How was it that his own allegiance roused that same spirit? They were prepared to meet all that was wrong, all that was biggoted, all that was unjust in the Protestant feeling in England, but they were prepared to sup port the strong feeling of justice on the part of the English people, that that portion of justice which is to be done to Ireland should be done at the least expense and suffering of the great body of the community • and that was the grand distinguishing mark of the two Classes on both sides of the House. It was a shifting, wavering, faltering policy, after the declarations made on the ether side of the House ; and it was a sound feeling of kindness and consideration, based upon principles of freedom and liberality, which induced them to support this motion.—( Hear, and cheers.) Why did he make this observation, but that it was called for by the speech which the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government last made upon the question. He wanted to know what answer the Right Hon. Gentleman had made to the epeoches of the Hon. Member for Cork. The answer was admitted by the Hon. Member for Dungarvon ; but although that answer might have been pointedly made it was not conclusive. What were the circumstances? " Agi tate, agitate," said the Hon. Member for Cork, to the people of Ireland. " Don't go to England ; it is useless to do that ; but meet me at the monster meetings. Put the Government in danger. Frighten the Prime Minister. Let him see that if a shadow of a shade of war arise in any part of the world you will coerce him. Trust me, and when England or the Prime Minister is frightened, you may rely upon it Ireland will have justice done to her." Yes, that was the language of the Hon. Member for Cork, and what was the speech the Hon. Member for Dun garvon made in that House ? Why, it was a reiteration of the declaration of the Hon. Member for Cork, and the course he was now pursuing had a tendency still further to excite and irritate the Irish people. What was the course? Was it. to show the Irish people that what was just in time of war was not just in time of peace, or was it to point out the mode of re medying the mischief which had been done by any previous mal administration? No: it was to create discontent and make the position of the Prime Minister dangerous in the event of any exigency arising, and thus to make it dangerous for him to refuse justice to Ireland. Now, he asked the House if these were not the real causes which had produced the conciliating declarations of the Right Hon. Baronet opposites Much in justice had been done by that Right Hon. Gentleman to the great body of the people of ihis country, as well as to a large majority of that House. They, on that side of the House, and he believed the country at large were supporting a measure of conciliation and conces sion, and not yielding to one of the violent demands which had been made by the Hon. Member for Cork, in Ireland, and reiterated in that House by the Hon. Member for Dungarvon. They thought indeed that they had been dealing with the great business of conciliation towards Ireland, until the Right Hon. Gentleman delivered himself of his speech the other evening.—( Hear, hear.) But how had they been deceived? How craftily had the Right Hun. Baronet endeavoured to cover his object with a flimsy veil which required but little penetration or examination to see through. The fact was, the Right Hon. Gentleman bad nearly get rid of the difficulties at home, and probably in Ireland, by one of his happy ruses. By a sudden turn of fortune the Right Hon. Gentleman fancied he had the House of Commons with him, and this grant was intended as a sop for the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cork. That was a true statement of the 'case. If the Right Hon. Baronet had not discovered a small cloud of war in the west, he would not have beers dis turbed. And what was the true interpretation of those words ? Why, the Right Hon. Baronet was afraid of a war with Ame • rica.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) That was the long and short of it.—( Hear, and a laugh.) At the same time, the Right Hon. Gentleman foresaw something like a rebellion in Ireland, contemporaneously with the war in America. This, then, was the sop to be given to Ireland. It was at least a sort of graceful concession.—( Cheers.) These were not his own words, but the ideas, if not the words, of Government, and he defied any man in that House to get up and make any other interpretation of the speeches which had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet. And what was the answer to those statements and promises of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department? 'Why, he had added to the statement, and what was still more remarkable, he had on the present occasion made an unjust appeal to th e Protes tant people of England. Th e Hon. Member for Sheffield had proposed that the Maynooth grant should come out of funds. that were actually un•mployed. They were really funds of ' a sinecure character, for when the parties died who at present possessed them, Government would be in possession of means to give a proper education to the Irish people. And how was that proposition met? Why they did not want it to be adopted. They would not c ,nsent to disturb the Church Establishment in Ireland, because they said it would not he permitted by the people of Eneland ; and the Government, with a true Protestant feeling, would not allow the House to touch it. He was prepared to say the proposition of the Hon. Member for Sheffield would not in the slightest degree injure the Protestant Church in Ireland; and in using the term Pro testant Church he used it simply in the sense of a congregation, and that was the simple explanation given to it by the sup porters of the Right Hon. Baronet. Now what was the argument used against the proposition of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield ? The Right Honourable Baronet adverted to a celebrated article of David Hume. and appeared to think that it was favourable to his own side. Experience, however, proved that an augmented clergy of a particular church did not increase the number of the congrega tion ; for instance, they had a large number of Protestant priests in Ireland, but the majority of the people belonged to a Catholic congregation. It was evident, therefore, that increasing the number of the clergy was not supporting the Protestant Church. Nine-tenths of the Protestant clergy in Ireland stood almost alone amidst a Catholic congregation. — (Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial side of the House.) Hon. Gentlemen on the other side said " No," but was there any man in that House who had had personal expe rience in the matter, who would stand up and deny what he had said was right ?—( Hear, hear.) Was there any man who could get up and say that in Ireland seven-eights of the whole congregation were not of the Catholic persuasion? He was convinced no one could deny it, far in parish after parish every congregation was Catholic. It would be much better for the Government to say whether de creasing the number of the clergy would not have a better effect in improving the Protestant Church. They had an op portunity of doing so now, for his llon. Friend the Member for Sheffield proposed that, as a minister died off, his place should not be supplied. The present minister only received his revenue during life, and at his death there was no neces sity for appointing another. Now the means which would thus accrue to the Government could be easily applied to the carrying out what the Government seemed to desire, the education of the Catholic people, and this would only be. This, then, was the argument, that they could no longer main tain in Ire'and by force that which they had too long main tained by that means in that country. lie believed the word used was " Protestant domination," and that that was the thing which it was apprehended could no longer be upheld by force in Ireland. The Government, seeing that such was the state of affairs, they yielded; but, as upon every other occasion, they yielded when it it was too late.—( Hear, hear.) That ha been always their policy and their penalty, they tried to do good when it was too late to do it with auy effect.—( Hear, hear.) They had not the courage to do right—they were in dread to do it ; but it was a feeling of dread that made them do it in the end.—( Hear, hear.) That was not the way to do justice to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He had never been hostile to the present Government ; but he would say it was hopeless to expect they would do justice if they waited to do it upon pt inciples of terror—( Hear, hear)—and when they were terri fied a little more they would go on doing what they ought to have done long ago. He had heard so much about this ques tion of the Church property, that he would like to ask a ques tion in regard to it, namely, Who made this property ? Was it not the Roman Catholics, for Roman Catholic pur p.ises?—(Cheers)—but property which had been directed by Protestant power to Protestant purposes.—(Cheers.) But now that the Protestant interest had died out, it was only fair to apply it to the very useful purpose of teaching the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) He would wish to know why they should not be FO applied ? He had not heard any reason why they should not, as an earnest of their intention to do justice to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) And now what was the real diffe rence between the Right Hon. Baront's proposition and the appropriation clause? It was simply what was called the Pro testant principle. Hon. Members opposite said that this was a proposition which, if it originated with Protestant Ireland, might be consistent, but it should not have originated with Protestant England. But the attack having been commenced in England, the assailants hid themselves behind their excesses in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Now, either this was a question as to a great question, or it was not. It was one which asserted that England was about to make a proposition for the education of the people of Ireland, and the means were to be had without injury to any one ; and, therefore, he called upon them to agree to the grant, if they wished to pacify Ireland. Sir R. PEEL said he would be very unwilling that the , House should separate until he had protested against the gross mis-statements and misrepresentations he had heard of what had fallen from him upon the discussion of this question the other night. Upon that occasion he did abstain from all party recrimination. He said he brought forward this measure on the part of her Majesty's Government, conscious that it would , be well received in Ireland. He stated the feelings of grati tude with which it had been hailed in that country.—( Hear. ) He did then, and would now deprecate with anxiety the chance of a failure of this measure.—(Hear, hear.) He knew well that the success of the measure did depend upon Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and that with them rested the question whether the measure should succeed or not.-- ( Hear, hear.) He said then, and he would say now, that he meant to do ample justice, as far as it was in his power, to the motives of those Hon. Members who had voted against the measure, as well as those who had voted for it. He stated further, upon that occasion, that he knew well that many of those who had given their support to the Government had done so at the risk of displeasing their constituents. He also stated that many others who had voted in favour of the mea sure had done so at the risk of losing their seats for ever. He did not arrogate to himself or to those who sat with him on that side of the House, the origin of this measure. On the contrary, he stated that it would liave been much better if it had come from those who had been well known to be uniform friends of the Roman► Catholics.—( Hear, hear.) He was perfectly willing to take upon himself all the consequences of the dis, pleasure that he might have incurred, this he stated on Frida night, and he added upon that occasion ' Visit the Minister you will, but let not your displeasure fall upon the measure itself."—( Hear, hear.) It would be base indeed, if they were tb attempt to throw the onus of the support they had received upon the opposite side of the House, for the indig nation it had created should be visited on that side alone. -He was surprised at the mode in which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman commented upon this subject. The measure re ceived his support on the second reading. He was perfeetly aware of the nature of the measure. He ( Sir R. Peel) ex plained fully that it was his intention to provide the funds out of the public revenue, and he had never given him reason to suppose that he would consent to the diminution of the funds of the Established Church. He had never sanctioned the opinion that they would, during any stage of the measure, con sent to the appropriation of the revenues of the Established Church —( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was perfectly aware of the principle of the proposition of her Majesty's Government. He ( Sir R. Peel) gave the Hon. and Learned Gentleman full credit for the motives by which he was actuated, for he was aware of the strong feeling which prevailed in the city which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman represented on this subject, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was ready, as others were ready, to incur the risk of supporting the second reading. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that he stated that the measure was brought forward in consequence of the agitation of Mr. O'Connell. He ( Sir R. Peel) stated directly the reverse. He stated that during the prevalence of that agitation they combated it by the law, that they succeeded in Ireland at least in their appeal to the law, that the consequence was a suspension of the agitation, at least, so far as the immense meetings tending to disturb the public peace were concerned. After this determination to vindicate the law, and after those meetings were suspended, they considered whether some other measures might not be adopted which would be likely to afford a more permanent remedy to Ireland than the application of physical force.—()Lear, hear.) They, therefore, proposed a measure making better provision fur charitable endowments. That measure with the exception of same opposition from a few Roman Catholics, received the general assent of the House. Were they then taunted with having yielded to intimidation— were they not then told that the course they were taking was a wise course? It was not said that there was anything undigni fied or dangerous in that course. They were supported by some ecclesiastical dignitaries of the Roman Catholic Church who were opposed to the repeal agitation. Mr. O'Connell never asked for the endowment of Maynooth_Conciliation Hall never asked for it. But a great number of the Roman Catholic clergy and laity, who, seeing the spirit in which the Govern ment were inclined to act, and that the Executive were inclined to act in a friendly spirit, asked for this measure ; and it was more in deference to their opinion, than to any threats or inti midations that they brought it forward.—( Hear, hear.) Nor did they bring it forward in consequence of their relations with the United States ; for it might be recollected that he had given notice soon after the suspension of agitation, voluntarily and without necessity—without any person calling upon him to do so, that he was ready to run the risk of exciting Protestant feelings in this country, and dis tinctly declaring that during the present session he would bring forward the subject of academical education ; and that he would, at the same time, bring the subject of Maynooth un der the consideration of the House. Did he not add, at the same time, that they would act, not in an adverse but in a friendly spirit ? And did not any person who heard him know that it was his intention to improve that institution ? He therefore brought forward the measure. He had abstained from noticing the attack of the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo site; and be seemed to be disappointed that he (Sir Robert Peel) had passed it over. He would tell the Right Hon. Gentleman the reasons why he did so. He knew that the success of the measure depended upon the votes of Hon. Gentlemen in that House; and it was not far him to alienate that support by party attacks. He thought it much more consistent with his duty, to act in that way, being ready to take the consequences of the success or of the failure of this measure. Feeling deeply satisfied after proposing this measure, that the public interests required that it should be passed, was it not more becoming his position that he should concentrate every effort to the passing of the measure rather than provoke party attacks or promote party recriminations ?—( Cheers. ) Powerful as were the talents of the Right Hon. Gentleman, great as were his abilities, yet he could assure him it was not from any fear of a conflict with him that induced him to forbear.—(Cheers.) It was that sense of and d blic t t h lu n ty a w ff i e t c h ts red nh to i t t h s e fa importance ihire ls 0 u o l d f th p e rod measure, Ireland, that had led him, after maturely considering what course he should take, to do that which would best promote the success of the measure; but the Right Hon. Gentleman compelled him to notice his attack. The Right Hon. Gentle man asked, was it not humiliating that he should promote this measure? He felt no humiliation—(Cheers)—he felt 110 humiliation in discharging a public duty—but he should feel humiliated if, believing this measure to be of importance to the welfare of Ireland, he shrunk from proposing it, because they might charge him with inconsistency.—(Cheers.) But if he believed it to be a measure calculated to do good in Ireland— calculated to engender kinder feelings between the two coun tries—so far from feeling any humiliation in proposing it, he owned to from thenh eawnßoyui motives fd h ena t t ribHveeoosfn if . at nh G h dee e nsitthl with Right gu m bn a tkt e 1 1) f t eir h oo a ni nt. act.h eG performingfe n i tcl p eh e m r e f ea e nr e s t . l ah) y up s nuaTtttii The ac passages of his, an d c h arg i ng him with incon sistency. e u u u d t m t y i same o i a i me t t h i He supported the grant to Maynooth when out of office. In 1840 he voted with the Right Honourable Gentleman, and spoke in favour of it when he was silent.—( Hear, hear.) He objected to the withdrawing of the vote. Where was then the inconsistency in supporting it now ?—( Hear, hear.) They wished to i m p rove t h e build ing, extend th e accomrao lation, elevate the education, give a decent allowance to the teachers of youth—where, then, he repeated, was the inconsistency of now supporting a measure for the eontinuamte of whichhe hal uniformly voted? The Right Hon. Gentleman said that those whn voted for 9,0001. could not refuse to vete for the 26,0001., and besides th a t .i t was absurd in those who would vote for a salary to professors to vote only for a sum which would keep them in a starving condition. It was the Right Hon. Gentleman himself who said so, and yet he accused the Government of inconsistency in proposing a grant which would give increased comfort to those residing at Maynooth, merely because, instead of being small and annual, the grant would be increased and permanent.—(Bear, hear.) He did not then reply to those observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman, but addressed himself to those of the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, who took a for different view, and who in a generous spirit came forward to support the Government in accordance with a virtual engagement tha t the Opposi ti on for the of the House would support any measu re brou g ht for ward :. ;. I 5 N _ _ ra - N -.. welfare o f Ireland without reference to party feeling. H,e ire ere eve L . .e,•-...ept seen a man so discontented with the favourable/ seftece .. .;7 - 1 ~ rt, which the measure had met with in Ireland. The Itt - III : . ' e , _ eil e se, e Gentleman seemed to consider Irish agitation and ' -et t r.4,l) as the field for his own peculiar exertions. The VAC 'e -!. '`-erseel, Baronet then quoted the opinion of Lord Monteagleeeitsikikeede see . last session, which was decidedly in favour of an inereal • -'ese, the Maynooth grant, and asked, if they had not brougit.joses N -, r 4 . ! kt ei ki ward this, or similar grants, would not the Right Hon. Geritfit 'Li ':" 4 '''' man have taunted them with inconsistency and impolicy in not bringing forward some healing measure for Ireland? He would have said this was the time, and that if they had done so the Opposition would have given the Government all the support in their power.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But the Right Honourable Gentleman, though he supported the Maynooth grant, spoke vehemently against those who proposed it, and extracted all that party virulence could obtain from his support. He thought the conduot of the Right Hon. Gentleman unworthy of the position he occu pied in that llouse. He deeply regretted that he felt obliged to reply to the taunts of the Right Hon. Gentleman—he had expected unanimity, and was sorry that any division should hate taken place. lie proposed the measure for the welfare of Ireland, but did not think it right that the obligations of the Irish Roman Catholics should be withdrawn from those who had long advocated their claims—their former friends—and transferred to them.—( Hear, hear.) He only wanted te im press a belief on the House that the Government had done their duty, and bad been actuated by a sincere desire to benefit the Catholics of Ireland. They felt that this was a necessary measure. It was an attempt to conciliate the people of Ireland. It was not merely a series of measures of concession, but it was an act of spontaneous kindly motion on the part of the Government, and as such he hoped it would be received, and not cause, as it was said it would do, an accession to the ranks of repeal. He thought that this feeLng had been evinced by the Charitable Bequests Act of last seesion. But it seemed that the fear of an American war was to have a great effect in the terms of this measure, as if that which had been already arranged, had been at all affected by the message of the President. Why this measure had been arranged so long ago as last. November, and he could assure the House that the discussions which had taken place in the American Legislature with respect to Oregon had not added one shilling to the grant to Maynooth, .ini the sipetieh of the President had had no more influence than the eiscussions themselves. He had anticipated that this neeasnre would have the effect of increasing the good-will be tween the several classes in Ireland, and he thought that the expressions of good will with which it had been hailed in the House would have the effect of allaying the discontent which then prevailed in Ireland. That the measure was not yielded to agitation was evident from the power which the Government had shown to contend with agitation. And what was said with respect to America 1 Was it not evident that the proceedings of America had not the slightest influence on the decisions on this question, and to which the lion. Member who intro duced this question had not made the slightest reference. What, did the Hon. Member intend to lay the great stress of his argument on taking a sum of such paltry amount as eti3Ootie from the Consolidated Fund, for eff,cting such a great purpose as the conciliation of Ireland ? He (Sir Robert Peel) believed, that the intentions of the Government would be plainly understood, and he would not attempt to justify this grant by any reference to the compact with the Esta blished Church in Ireland. He would take a more enlarged view of Establishments its general ; nor would he on the nar row ground which had been proposed, attempt at all to prove anything in support of the Established Church. He might cite the opinions of Sir J. Newport, Lord Plunkett, and others, to show that the appropriation of such a sum would in no way infringe upon the claims of the Established Church.--( Hear.) The Hon. Member who had introduced this motion had ex pressed a fear that the whole of :he principles en which the Government had acted would be misunderstood in Ireland.— ( Bear, hear.) But he (Sir R. Peel) had reason to say that the present impression in Ireland was highly satisfactory, as showing the impression that was prevailing throughout that country of the kindness and good will with which the present Government were dispossd to act towards it.—( Hear, hear.) He must confess that one of the motives that had induced this grant was the hope that it would lead to a greater interchange of good will between the Catholic and Protestant portion of the population.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that it would not be looked upon by the Irish people as a measure of concession to their fears, but as an indication of kindly feeling on the part of the Government and the people of this country.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that there had been as many petitions presented from the Protestants of Ireland in favour of the measureas against it—(Cheers)—and he did think it most honourable to the feelings of the Irish Protestants that they had come forward not to oppose the measure, but to sup port it. They had called it a measure liberal and just towards their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects—(Cheers)—and he did believe that if the House approved this measure, aesd the spirit in which it was propoed, it would have the effect of isrhpitia ting the Protestants of Ireland.—(Great cheering.) The Pro testants of Ireland did not certainly expect that they would take the revenues for the support of Maynooth from. the Iris& Church, not that they cared for the money—the sum of twenty-six thousand pounds was a minor . considera tion—they rejoiced in the Government measure as a proof of kindly feelings towards their fellow countrymen, but it would certainly be somewhat dishonourable were they to exact the sum required for the support of this institution from the funds of the Irish Church. He thought that the kindly feelings evinced by the Protestants would in this case meet with a very ungenerous return. He utterly denied the justice of the mea sure proposed by the Hon. Member for Sheffield. if he had been diverted from the course he had intended to pursue in this debate, if he had said one word which was calculated to throw any impediment in the way of Hon. Members en the other side, who had been prepared to support this measure of the Government, he deeply regretted it. But he felt that after the language used by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, it would be necessary for him to justify thus far the measure of the Government. He gave credit to the sincerity of the mo tives which induced Hon. Members on that side to Pitt on that measure. He acknowledged and he gave them credii for their uniform advocacy of the Catholic claims • still he wall most anxious that this measure should receive their sanction. The motion of which his Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge had given notice seemed intended to solicit the votes of all who could by possibility be opposed to the Government meaeure.—(Loed cries of ‘• Hear, hear," and cheere.) And, locking at the motion which his Hon. Friend had put cn record, he found that its ob ject was not to insure an annual vote, _ but that the sum required for this grant should not be paid out of the Consolidated Fund.—( Hear, hear.) His lion. Friend might have objected to the increase of the vote, but, instead of that, his lion. Friend bad given notice of a motion which would compel Hun. Members—he should say which would al most compel Hon. Members—to vote with him.—( Cheers. ) The motion was to this effect, that the fund for Marooth should net be taken out of the Consolidated Fund. It was not that the vote should be an annual one. [The notice of the Honourable Member for the University of Cambridge upon the paper was here handed the Right Honour able Baronet.] lie found that the motion vas thus : that the several sums proposed to be payable shall not be charged upon or payable by the Commissioners of her Majes ty's Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund. It was not, as he had already stated, that the vote should be an anneal one; but that it should not be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. If he could succeed by a combination of parties of extremely opposite views in defeating this measure. ow, he hoped that those who would assist the Hon. Member in thus defeating it, would do so upon principle. He would have thought it perfectly con sistent, if his Hon. Friend had objected to any increase of the vote, if he had proposed a motion in opposition to that increase of the vote, and taken the sense of the House upon it. But was it fair that he should place such a motion as this upon the paper, and he trusted that those Hon. Members who agreed with the principle of the Government measure, but who were opposed to the mode in which Govern meet proposed to raise this fund—he trusted that they would think it better, considering the state of public feeling in Ireland, to ensure the passing of the measure, rather than its defeat. He did not believe that any permanent geod to any party would arise .tom a combination of men of such opposite principles, and he hoped, therefore, that, even if the maj irity of that House did not entirely approve of this measure, yet, that, in consideration of the circum stances under which it was brought forward, they would prefer the passing of the measure to its failure, and that they would support her Majesty's Government in this case, and afterwards if indeed they felt inclined to censure the conduct of the Ministry, then they might with some appearance of con sistency oppose them. The Government were perfectly pre pared to abide by the measure. He bad thought it better to encounter the storm of public opinion, than shrink from the performance of a public duty. The Right Hon. Baronet sat down amidst great cheering, the expression of which it was very difficult to define, but amidst the storm of cheers and counter cheers, it seemed that the Liberal party predominated. LordJ. RUSSELL (who was for a considerable time inter.- l r o u u p d te d e r b i y es the of s- , ff , ° O r t r s d o e r f ~A ) l rs . a iC ou d ol t q h u a h th n e t d o id be n h o e t ar w d, is a h m i f d o s r e one moment to detain the House for this night or to lead to an adjournment.—( Hear.) But he had already stated that he would support the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield ; and be thought it right, before the discussion of this night closed, to state his reasens.—(Cheers. ) And he thought, at the same time, that it was his duty to say that, when the motion of the Honourable and Learned Member foe Cambridge was brought forward,he would give it his de cided negative.—(Cheers.) He .would go further, and say, that if the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Shef field was not acceded to, be would give the utmost support in his power to any motion which would have the effect of carrying out the same principle.—(Cheers.) .He ' bad no wish to obstruct her Majesty's Ministers in the measure which they htd proposed ; but he believed, if they had not been supported by thosewho agreed with him, they would not have held the position which they now held.— (Cheers.) He agreed with his Right Hon. Friend, the Se cretary of State, that when they had been so long in the wrong, they might ultimately be right. He did not agree with those who said that if this grant were acceded, the Roman Catholics llwaltidlt s t ilhhonleoioucttlshd d i dobos those h op a tle v wbr e reheslluoai aen n dvd o ees adetioh f atu u hai r tadt t ht h gta e ret r arrnamtt c sihtu l we a a i t m eer claim. He in any satisfaction. Ile begged to express g htisswoudb g d tolfn i r d eal yintrhto n .ebo i t t )l icycto a e r hae e ener grant.—(C h ee rs .) c. dissatisfac tion with the statement. (The Noble Lord was here in terrupted by loud cries of " Order, order," " Bar, bar.") When we could again co ll ect t h e tenor of the Noble Lord's observations, we understood him to say, until they offered an adequate establishment for the people of Ireland out of t e the i d f u n n o d t s present Establish ment a ai tt r a e c a hany gre at d y elistin could be expected.—( Hear, hear.) importance to the g r a n t o f 26,000/, existing no satisfaction to those opposed te the and he did not wish now to g o into any argument upon the a d equacy of that gr ant—(Hear, hear) --nor was it from a ny di sagreement with the sentiments ' of hißight Hon. Friend opposite that he thought it his duty to contrast farmer sta'ements with present acts. He thought it to be bit duty to contrast the conduct of the present Government from the year 1836 to the year 1843 with that which they were at present pursuing, and he came to the conclusion that either there was the greatest blindness or want of foresight on their part from 1836 to 1843, and in that case he could have no opinion of their candour, and must suppose them to be a Ministry more wanting in capacity, than any Ministry that had ruled this country for some time; or, if they were wise, be must deny that they had acted with any sincerity.—(Cheers.) He would not further enter into their present and past conduct, but he would state that he would vote in favour of the notion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, and after that he would give his most steady and cordial support to the Bill._( Cheers. ) Mr. COLQUHOUN then moved the adjournment of the debate. Mr. MITCHELL said that they had already had six nights' debate on this subject, and the result of this adjournment would be that, at the end of the session, most important business would be left untouched. He wished to take the sense of the House upon a division. Colonel WOOD concurred with the Honourable Gentle. man who had just sat down. Mr. WARD said that, in consequence of the general suppo sition that the debate on this motion would occupy_ r os e le er niehts, every standing ord er for to-morrow had been est Is postponed. of the day were gone o'clock. The debate was th enth a r d o j u o g ur h n , e t ta H nd ou a s f e re a r j d th ou e rn otb ed er e et r 0 n d to rea GRAY'S INN, Aran, 23: Henry Manisty, Esq., was this day called to the degree of Barrister-at-Im, by the Honourable Society of Gray's Inn.