The Sun. — London, England, 1803-02-24 00:00:00

thepayment-of the debts of His itoial Highness, heCilU'ae prov ision was made for that'purpose already, hut fbr the purpose of enabling His Royal High. ness to re.stilblish him Self in that situation which was necessary fur the support of that Dignity and Splendor which belonged to his station, and in the preservation of which, this C-ciuntrY had a deep and 4 constitutional interest, He desired Gentlemen to etster what were the terms of the Message which earner to the House, His Majesly adverted to the period which had elapsed since the adoption of the Arrangement, deemed by the wisdom of Parliament necessary for the discharge of the Incumbrances of the Prince of 'Wales, and adverted to the progress made in carrying them into died ; and His Majesty then referred to the House for such measures as mi g ht appear to it to be necessary for the sup. port of the station of His Royal Highness :—and next, His Majesty expressed his regret that any measore which the House might think necessary for this purpose, was to have the circa of increasing t h e h ort h eus o f hi s P eo pl e . Now, upon this, he had only at present to observe, that tho , ,e Members who were prepared to say, that they would nut consider any proposition, be it what it may, which may have the effea of occasioning any Aditiorral bur then on the Public for this purpose, would °bled to the Motion now before the House, that the SPE AK tats do now leave the Chair. Those who thought that they ought, at least, to hear the proposition, although it might have this efrea, (and he trusted they were a very large majority of the House) and that some provision !night be made, which they could, con. sistently with their duty adopt, after being made acquainted with the nature of it, would vote for the Motion, that the Sr EAK g do now leave the Chair, for the purpose of attending to what might be stated in the Committee, and considering whether the proposition ought to he adopted or not, by which they would only be giving etre& to an order made the other day without a dissenting voice, namely, that the Message should he taken into consideration. There could he nothing understood in assenting to the present Motion, in the nature of a pledge to assent to the proposition which might be made in the Committee ; • that could nor he so by any implication whatever, because hitherto the terms of the proposition, which, if the • House should go into a Committee, he should submit, were not yet known. If it should appear to be objeaionable in any part, every Member in the Committee would of course have an opportunity of objeaing' to it. If, - after hearing the proposition, it should appear to any honourable Member to be such as ought not to he even discussed, he would have an oppor. turity of ..moving that the Chairman do leave the Chair, without reporting .or asking leaye to sit again.. AU this would be in the power of the Hun. Gentleman who had put the question to him, as well as in the power of every Member in the House. This being the state Of the case, he trusted he should not be thought wanting in respe& to the Hon. Gentleman, or to the Howe, if he abstained from making; further observations upon this subjea, until he should have an opportunity of submitting his sentiments to a Committee ,of the whole House, The question that the SPEAXER do now leave the Chair wits then put and carried ; the House ac. cordingly formed itself into a Committee of the whole House, Mr. WALLACE in the Chair. The Cll .INC ELIO R of the LXCHEQUEk said, that he rose to submit a proposition to the considera tion orthe Cemmittee, which he flattered himself, notwithstrmiiieg what lied been said by an Hon. Member, weuld meet with the general acquiescence of the Comieittee; for it sees impossible for him to entertaie a doebt for a single moment, of a sincere. disposition in every Metnner of that House, to pro. • 'note., as far its consisteittly•with his duty he 'could do so, the eae arid comfort of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. It was impossible fi>r him to entertain a doubt, thet every individual Member tai that Committee' felt that he had a constitutional share of interest in the splendor and dignity of the 1-I;.:if Apparent to the British Crown. He was per., convinced, that those who proposed the med. sure - itt t eoe, and those who supported it felt a painful but indispensible part of their duty to adopt this measure, and • which was afterwards, upon a consideration of all the circumstances, agreed to, • and I nside a 'legislative provision sl , y the wisdom of Pariiament. Yet those who proposed it, and those who supported it, brought it forward; and gave it that support with feelings of reludana:evhich, how. ever, were superseded by the paramount'obligations of their public duty ; and he was persuaded, there could not be any individual in that Hoese, or in this Country, who would not rejoice at finding any means by which His Royal Highness could be enabled to tipport the dignity and splendor of his high state. The meaus then adopted, were thought necessary by the wisdom of Parliament, guided, as they were, by a sense of their public duty. It was material to refer to the proceedings of 1795, in the discussion of this subjeft ; and. that reference was become still mare necessary in con sequence of what fell froth his Hon. Friend who spoke previous to the Seem( eit's leaving the Chair; and therefore he would refer, to such proceedings. t would be recolleAed, that at the latre4 end of ;April 1795, a Message came from His Majesty to the fiousv, recommending areextension of the &ail blidiment of the Prince of 'Wales, expressing a re• g ret t h a t the income of His Royal Highness had not been adequate to the support of his station, and stating, disynaly, that His Majesty had no idea of ptopwing to Parliament to make a provision for the discharge of the debts of His Royal Highness, crthetwise than toy appropriating a Vitt t of his in come for that porpote. Upon this Message the linieie had aaeil ; the measure was proposed 4Y--his Right Honourable Friend the late Minister, who breaght fur ward the proeosition, founded on a jest comparison (if the, oxalis to support the 4,:itahliihtilcot of the Prince of Wales, with the A L "wit of his ifiCtilifirilfiCeS and a cemparison was also made between, the sta'te aed Condition ctf t hi lio t o t he year. 179 e, end those of finer ee::oCee Reght lion. Fried had stated, that in 117 year 4742, a proviSiee wit made by Par. liaeren to the then PrMee o Wales, an income of per Arlllllll, eXclil:,ll o C of the revrWies the Patchy of f.2otowall; anti all which his kieelit a •vl'• • a•l..•{• Part.i.ll US 'U %,...uailliiitxcc a► ....I, ! was td consider the change which took place in the ."1 value of money from the year 314:2 to the period at which he was then speaking, which was in the year 1795, and desired them also to consider. the . necesaary increase of the Establishment of the Prince' of Wales in consequence of such changes. There had been also an increase of 25,0001. per annum granted on that establishment, an addition which very few persons thought exorbitant, and to which, therefore, very little objedion was made. His Right Hon. Friend then argued, that-the income of His Royal Highness, in the year 179 c, would not in reality become greater by What he 'proposed than that which had been enjoyed by his Royal Grand, father. In 174.5, a motion was made, that 60,0001. should be received by his then Royal Highness, which was adopted by a very large majority of that House. Thus, his Right Hon. Friend had ar. gued in support of his then proposition, whio was adopted by the House. Then there came another part of His Majesty's message under the consideration of the-Committee, and on which there was more differs ence of opinion than on the former. Some thought that no discharge of the Debts of the Prince of Wales should be considered in that I-loose; that no ar. rangements should be made, And that the charge of it should (lot be borne by the Public. Others concur red with those in thinking, that provision 'should be made for the liquidation of the Debts of His Royal Highness, 'but that the burthee should not be borne by the Public, but should come out of the income of His Royal Highness himself. It was, however, the opinion of his Right Hon. Friend, who wished to combine the true .interests of His Royal Highness with a just regard to the intes rests of his Creditors, that provision should be made for the payment of their claims, by the appropriation of 60,0001. per annum, of the Re. venues of the Dutchy of Cornwall, and that means must be found for the liquidation of the Debts of His Royal Highness. The distinct proposition was assented to ; and this was the general wish of the House, namely, that some measure should take . place for liquidating the Debts of His Royal High. ness; the means to accomplish which end produced a variety of confliding opinions ; but the House - was relieved from further difficulties upon the sub jed, by a gracious communication from His Royal Highness himself, which he begged permission to read to the Committee. Here the CHANC ELLO R of the EXCHEQUER read the Message of, His Royal Highness to the House, which was brought down by Mr. Astseitteria R ; and upon which they after. wards proceeded—His Royal Highness, by that Message, assenting to A plan for the liquidation of his Debts out of his Income, in the manner which Parliament afterwards direeled, His Royal Highness! having, by that Message, submitted entirely to the wisdom of Parliament for that purpOse. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proceeded to observe, that this Gracious Message from His Royal Highness, .was received, as it ought to be re. ceived, with perfed resped and with gratitude, and the House of Commons proceeded to instrud its Committee as to the mode in which the Bill should be brought in, in which provision was made for the managemeut of His Royal Highness's House_ hold—what was to be allotted for that purpose, and what part of the Incense of His Royal Highness should be appropriated to the liquidation of his Debts,. It was the opinion of the House at that time, that they would better discharge their duty • to His Royal Highness, and to their Constituents, by adopting a measure aehich applied part of the Income of His Royal Highness for the satins fadion of his Creditors ; but the primary objed of the measure which wits then adopted, was to liquidate the Debts, under which Parliament gave to His Royal Highness an admonition, for, applying so large a proportion of his income to the payment of his Debts, was an admonition... But if any persons were now present who concurred in this measure, he would ask them, if they had made up their minds to this, that such measure being to be continued liar twelve years,' and that His Royal Highness had sustained it for eight out of aloe twelve years, and looking back on that period, he would ask such persons, had they made up their minds that His Royal Highness should continue in that situation for twelve years at all events, or whether they did not think that he had already con tinued a sufficient time in that situation ; and he would ask if they did not think, in the yeae 1795, when they came to that determination, that they reserved to themselves a right of exercis. ing their own discretion to consider the mat. to now, and that they had not precluded them selves from doing so, by an harsh and austere obli. gation ? By the Bill to which he had already alluded, it was . provided that the Debts of the Prince of Wales should be investigated, and an ap. propriation was made, not by any sum granted, or imposed upon the Public, but out of the revenues of His Royal Highness himself, which appropriation was 13,0001. per annum, the revenue of the Dutchy of Cornwall, and 60,0001. per annum, out of the income of His Royal Highness, to discharge Debts which were then computed at 630,0001. but which were afterwards estimated at 65°,0001, so that I 3,0001. and 60,0001. per annum,- together, were employed in discharging a capital debt of 650,0001. and debentures were issued for that purpose. Here he ,entered into the detail of the application of those' Funds for the liquidation of. His Royal Highness's Debts. The result of which was, that on the sth of .January last, there had been paid • off 563,8951. and continuing . the operation of this plan, the whole. would be discharged in July 1806,! leaving a balance, of something less than tool. and akowing 6000 ls for t he charges of management. He then took no tice of His Majesty's Message recommending t his subjeti to Parliament, and then desired it to be recollected, that His Royal Highness had passed eight years of his life, it fifth part of it, in a state of embarrassment, and conaparative ob scurity. lie would then ask, did we with such just feelings as we entertained for His koyal iliehnese ; did we, with such just attaclueent to the Menarchy of this Country, of which His ko) al Hight ens was so essential a Branch, act cooaistently with the duty which we owed to such Monarchy and to ourselves, by with-holding as sistarcc from His Royal ilighntitse, in -his proem q.1,60.5%/1/ vvi..Mll.l 141114 s ue VN=Mee was prepared to say, that His Royal Highness should remaii)..in this situation of comparative . obscurity four years longer I It should be recolleaed, that the House had not paid one shilling towards the discharge of the Debts of His Royal Highness for the last eight years. Much indeed of those Debts were paid, but they were paid out of the income of His Royal Highness himself. He did not believe the House wished His Royal Highness to continue in this state. He wished it to be remembered also, that Parliament had no embarrassment whatever in this case ; for at the time'of the last arrangement of the MCA irs of His Royal Highness, no pledge whatever was entered into for not considering the subjea again: every Member was therefore at liberty to a 1 as his conscience guided; or a due sense of his duty should diciate. The proposition which he should have to submit to the Committee, would be, 1 That His Royal Highness should be placed, from the sth of January, 1803, in the situation in which he would have been placed, but for the last provision which was made for the arrangement of the Affairs of His Royal Highness in the year 1795." k was not his intention to propose that any alteratioo should take place with regard to the liquidation of his Debts--he wished that system to continue its operations, and to do all that was intended by it. He did not wish to interrupt the plan adopted to prevent the accumulation of any future Debts. What he wished to submit to the Committee was, that of enabling His Majesty to grant to the Prince of Wales the same Income as he had previ. ous to the arrangement of his Affairs, namely, the sum of 60,0001. per annum. This, he, was per. suaded, would not appear excessive, when it was considered, that go years ago, a Prince of Wales had 90,0001. per ann. and that His Royal Highness in the year togs had only 138,001 l. and, which was not then supposed to be more than sufficient to support his state and dignity"; and, that, which was in 1 795 deemed no more than sufficient, must be admitted to be moderate indeed at the present moment, considering the great change which had taken place in the value of money during the last eight years, and consequently the great increase in the expences of living. It was not his intention to propose any addition to the sum then thought necessary, but he wished His Royal Highness to be in possession, of an In. come as large as he would have had at that period; if it had not been for the Rest riEtiOns and Regulations then adopted. He should not think it right, at this time, nor, indeed, at any time, to atternpf:tb undervalue . economy ; never was it better untlei. stood, more ably discussed, or more wiielkadupted, than at the period , when the lasl'prcivisions were made for the regulation of • the Establishment of his Royal Highness; but if any one' would d u ly consider this subject, look at the value of the ne. cessary Expenditure of such a station, of providing for the various Offices of State which belong to that Station, reception of Foreign Ambassadors, and the various other branches of unavoidable expence of the Royal Household, it would appear that the charges upon the Civil List were such, that the sum applicii. ble to the ease and comfort of those to whom it was designed was not very large. He was as much at. melted to economy as any one, but he would asks and ask with confidence, was the state of this Coun try such,as to make us doubt its sufficiency to pro. vide for . His Royal Hi g h ness t h e P r i nce o f W a l es the additional sum of 60,0001. thereby placing him only in the situation he was in at a period of war, and now we are in a period of peace I He would ask, whether it appeared to a n y' one more than r i ght, t h at there should be granted now , only that which, wits deemed no more than necessary in time of War, and that years ago I—Let every Gentleman reflex what change had taken place in the value of money within the last eight years, and then determine what was ne cessary to support the splendor of His Royal Highness; and let it be remembered, that from the interest we all had, constitutionally, in that splendor, what we gave to the Prince of Wales to support it, we in reality gave to ourselves.—Let us consider these points attentively, and consider the inconveniencies which His Royal Highness had been obliged to sus. Min for the last eight years, by the operation of a measure which Parliament, judging wisely under all the circumstances then before them, thought it their duty to adopt; and having considered these matters attentively, lie should be deceived if it would not appear expedient to adopt the measure he should submit to the discietion of the Comm ittee, which had f or its objeCt the placing His Royal Highness in th e same situation he was in pre vious . to the adoption of the Regulations of 1795. The Hon. Gentleman who had made some observations previous to the SPEAKER'S leaving the Chair, was desirous of knowing whether any compromise had taken place On this occasion. He wished to be distinCtly under toot on this subjea. He could say with petted satisfaction, that it lie had never heard one word of the Petition of Right, the proposition he was about to submit to the Corn. mince was a proposition he should :save voted for, (if sanaioned by His Majesty) let it come from whatever quarter it might in that House. He thought it essentially necessary to the splendor of the Prince of. Wales. When he said Splendor, he did riot mean that vain osentation which some I thoughtless persons mistook for splendor. —He spoke not merely of equipage and external appear. ante, though these were not • to be totally disre. garded in such an elevated station ; but he meant something of much greater value, that of enabling His Royal Highness to be munificent to merit, to promote, by his countenance, great and liberal un dertakings. He wished to see the Prince of Wales placed In a situation to receive the due attention of the Nobility and Gentry of this Country, to be able.to return them the comforts of Hospitality, and to receive them in a manner suitable to his own rank and their wishes, for on this much depended of that intercourse between a Prince and the higher classes of the Subjects of this Realm, which was so desirable, and which contributed so much to the harmony of the State, and which was therefore much to' be cherished. His Royal Highness must there. fore be enabled to be munificent on At occasions; for it was not to be forgotten that • he was Heir Apparent to the greatest Crown in the Uni. verse. He was confident the House could not be content to see the Heir to the British Ctewn 1 in a situation in which tte _ ragement to undertakings of a liberal and u nature or protection and support to neg leCted tful nius, or publicly unobserved or unencouraged merit, such as his own noble dispo , ition would lead him to—this he could rot do, nor could lie follow the dictates of his own generous feelings if continued in his present situation. Under all these impressions, he would ask of the Committee, whether they still thought that the restraint which had been imp eh upon His Royal Highness for eight years, shoul d continue for fiur years more ? He could not b e l ieve it.—He, on the contrary, believed, that they tho u g ht it was time to relieve His Royal Highness from Ills present embarrassment ; and he was so much con vinced of the propriety of the proposition he was about to submit to the Committee, that, as he had said already, he should have supported it if it came from any quarter whatever, if it had the sanction of His Majesty ; but although the hope that this mea sure would be the means of putting an end to the Pe tition of Right gave him great satisfaClion, yet he disclaimed it as a motive for bringing forward this proposition, which in his conscience he thought de served to be received in that Committee upon Con stitutional principles—He had nothing further et present to.say to the Committee, but to ask perdw t for having detained them so long. He then moved, " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that His Majesty be enabled to grant yearly any sum o r sums of money out of the Consolidated Fund of, Great Britain, not exceeding in the whole 60,004,1"' being to take place and to be computed from we th of January 1803, and to continue until the 0 1 July 18°6, towards providing for the better supert and dignity of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales." He observed, that the Revenues of 11111 Dutchy of Cornwall would be free during this perioa to the amount oft 3,0001. otherwise, he should have proposed the vote for 73,0001. ; and to a question put by Mr. HmtatsoN, the CHANCELLOR Of th. EXCHIQUIIIR said, that the amount of the debt li. quidated by payment. ul to the sth of janitor 180 3 , was 663 1 8951. .ard that the residue and 2 35,754 1 . including principal and interest, 4 0 . 60001. charges of management. The SOLICITOR GENERAL said, as a per" authorized by the Prince of Wales, it was proper he should say a few words on a subjed so importan t ' and he was extremely desirous of catching the at - tension of . ..the ,Chairman of the Committee, fee though he had ceased to have the hoqour of attend" ing the Prince of Wales_ in the- character he once ntlili.jtit:2ltalatietAtit., %Oh 10 to - him • was i n fin; teir more valuable, the confdeoce of His Royal High ness. He should state- his , sentiments, as fir as with propriety they could, be stated, as well in resPe# to the gracious Meslage cu nmonicated ; from the Throne, 'as ".ciao the Mrition made upon it by-hie Right Honourable Friend: * He was eatnel.o7 sited by the Prince of %les to express his wont' acknowledgment and affection to his Sovereign, for the: ioterest and concern • which His MitsrY bad shewn in the, welfare of .the Prince of w" 1 "0 strongly marked by the gracious Message now un -:, der the consideration of the Committee : with regard to the Minion riow before the House he was desired to-say, that His Royal Highfiess looked forward with a sanglatie Isoitegsitra - per fen - reasl i ness to acquiesce ins the determination of the Honie. He had stated mote than once in the late Parliament, by the direetinn of the Prince of Wales, that it ev er h a d been, and would be, his desir: to shew every mark er otation and duty to his-Roy a l P ar e nt , an d t his feeling in.. duced His Royal Highness to .forego a claim of Right, 'rather than prosecute that Right in a inan. net tharcould possibly appear hostile to His Ma jesty ;. the' House would consider how much that feeling was increased by the late Gracious Message from His Majesty, and how highly gratified His Royal-Highness would be,_ if the House adopted the measure proposed by the Right Hon. the CHANCEL' LOR of the EXCHEQUER, which would enable Hie Royal Highness to conduct himself in a manner con. sonant to his feelings upon a prosecution on a peti tion of right; a right which, Mr. SolActroe said, he had no difficulty in stating, that the .doubt of the Hon. Gentleman who spoke first on this subject to-night, no person who had sufficient ly considered that subject could entertain. But although he was confident on this point, he was equally sure that the prosecution of that light woe contrary to the feelings of His Royal Highness, because it might lead to a discussion so disagreeable and inconvenient, to circumstances so touch to be deprecated, that he was sure every feeling and con siderate man would rejoice to see chat take place, which preven ted the possible interruption in the affection which subsisted between His Majesty and his eldest Son, an' afFenion which he hoped would continue to the latest period. He wished to be understood clearly, he meant not to say that the ground cf this Motion had any oonneaion with the claim of right ; but that the ground of this Motion. was a public ground of the propriety of the measure itself, which indeed was most distinnlY, forcibly, and ably stated by his Right Hon. Friend. That there had not been, nor could there be, any compromise between the Prince of Wal e s and his Right Hon. Friend, was a thing n°t 7 42 .. doubted. When this gracious intention or . „, 11 , 1 it • jcsty was first intimated to the Prince of " 1 ",".„' came on His Royal Highness as unripened" it 7- unsolicited ; it imposed on him no terms or ° Jr ditions whatever; therefore wh en he said t': i should the Committee adopt the terms now pr o p s by his Right Hon. Friend, it would be agreeable 10 His Royal Highness, he meant it world enable His Royal Highness to stop the suit, and to do an aLI that was free and voluntary in the Prince of Wales' and suggested by that Gratitude which he always felt for that House and the Public, for their condutl, and which would be still increased, should the Committee adopt this measure. These were the sea' timento of the Prince of Wales, which, however imperfectly he had stated them, he hoped would 1101 appear disadvantageous to the Prince, but that they were consonant to the feelings of the House, so that he hoped no one would wish to withhold what was here proposed. Having said thus much in behalf, and by desire of the Prince, be begged permission to say a few words for himself, unconnened with, and unauthorised by His Royal Highness. lie had said on a former occasion, that great as were the "Pence' 91 . His Royal Highness, and imposed Wei-