The Sun. — London, England, 1836-06-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Jir.ArE 3. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his scat on the Wool: lick at Five o'clock. LONDON AND CAMBRIDGE RAILWAY. n A messag e from . the Commons brought up the London and ‘4lllbrid ge Railway Bill. DUNDEE HARBOUR BILL. The Dandee.Harbourßill was read a third time and passed. IRISH FISHERIES BILL. , sh Mr. listaEy and others from the Commons brought up the Iri Fisheries Bill. CAPITAL PUNISHMENTS. Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from Hull, PreYin. for the abolition of capital punishments in all cases ex cept those of murder. IRISH CORPORATION REFORM. Earl GREY presented a petition from the Mayor, Alder ton „ and Common Council of Newcastle upon Tyne, regret 'ag thei r L or d s hi ps h a d a lt ere d th e I r i s h M u nicipal Corpora l' on Bill, and praying them to pass the Bill with the same prin iples in it as those which were contained in the English and Scotch Municipal Bills. ABOLITION OF TITHES. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented petitions fr On Kilmore, Galway, and other places, praying for the total abolition of tithes; also a petition in favour of the Irish Muni elPal Reform Bill. Th e Consolidated Funl Bill was read a second time. GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY. - - The Marquis of LONDONDERRY presetted a petition from the gentry and Landowners residing in and near Durham, is favour of the Great Northern Railway Bill. RAILROAD BILI.S. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE seeing a certain Rail road Bill on the table which had been there for some time, Wished to know from the promoters of the Bill whether it was their intention to move it a further stage ? He was anxious that it should be passed to. night, and receive the Royal assent . • Monday. Th e Duke of WELLINGTON wished to say a few words. He had certainly a very strong feeling respecting 411 Railroads. He wished they might be all successful, but at the same time it was desirable they should not be per petual monopolies established in the country. Under these circumstances be certainly thought it would be desirable to insert in all Railway Bills some clause to enable the Government and Parliament to revise the enactments of thos e Bills at some future period.—( Hear, hear.) BY permitting certain of those measures to be carried into exe etttion great injustice had been done to many land proprietors lit the country, and they had been forced to submit to great inconvenience, and incur very large expense both in that and th pother House of. Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) He had bad uner his consideration for some days a scheme, whereby those Railro a d Bills might be lrought under the serious consideration of Parliament at some future period, and he was anxious that other proceedings upon those Bills should be postponed for a short time, in order that lie might Mature some measure or clause on the subject. Lord WHARNCLIFFE perfectly concurred in what bad fallen from the Noble Duke. He would propose that the Re- Port of all, Railroads ought to be printed, and a short time suffered to elapse before the third reading. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE concurred in almost all that had fallen from the Noble Duke, but this Bill had Pained through the other House, and so far through the Lords Without opposition. It might be allowed to pass to night, when i t 'tied become the law of the land on Monday; if that oppor tunity was loit, it might not do so for a long time. The pro- Posed measure would, he apprehended, be a general measure, d would equally affect those Bills which had passed, as well as hose in progress. He would not press his motion against the feeling of the House, but, under the circumstances, he hoped it 'sight ,be allowed to be read a third time. The Doke of WELLINGTON said the Noble Marquis Was wrong. It would be impossible to make the measure re trospective. a fter this Bill had become the law of the land The sbareholde.ts could have a vested interest which Parlia- Ment could not touch. Viscount MELBOURL TE agreed in the general principles 'aid down by the Noble Duke, but still the matter was one of difficulty. It was necessary that Parliament should take care the spirit of monopoly should be checked. The Government would be alive to the subject, and provide such a remedy as lay la their power. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY hoped the law which Was .now proposed would be made retrospective ; otherwise those Bills which bad passed already would have a great ad tentage ever others. Lord ELLENBOROUGH thought the best plan would 'm to appoint 3 Select Committee to consider the whole sub ject. I t would trot be possible to make a retrospective law. Lord HOLLAND thought the best and most proper plan to adopt would be, after the House had agreed upon a clause, to t insert it in one Bill, and then m ake a standin g order that it be inserted in all future Railway Bills. Lord ELLENBOROUGH did not think that that plan Would be a proper one. Some Railways would be content with k lease of 25 years, when others might require 35. It would be better not to fix one absolute rule. • .Mr. BERNAL, and others front the Commons, brought up 4 Cop . : , of the Report of the Select Committee on the Leith and Newhaven Railway, and several other Bills. BISHOPRIC OF DURHAM BILL. Upon the motion for the House to resolve itself into a Com- Thitte e on the ?:lishoprie of Durham Bill, Th e marquis 9f LANSDOWNE t hou g ht, for the sake 4. Preveating any um.ecessary delay, the Bill might be allowed Pass through Committee, and time could then be given for "e brought o ther clauses . relefine• to that Court, which might brought up on the third reZling. , Lo r d LYNDHURST, from inquiries lie bad made, found t eat th e Court was one of exceeding great advantage to the c conty. Some conversation then ensued, in which the Marquis of Lansdowne, the Marquis of Londonderr y , and Lord Lynd hurst joined, the rest;lt of whic h was that the plan proposed 'Or furthering the progress of the Bill by the Noble Marquis ( Lansdowne) was nut in accordance with the Standing Order Of the House. Th e Marquis o f LONDONDERRY could riot permit the g ill; L to go into Committee without directing the attention of th eir Lordships to the constitution of the Courts of Pleas and t he Court of Chanceiy in the county of Dur ham. His Noble F riend ( Wellington) when he last spoke on the subject said t hat the separation of the Courts was recomm ended b y the Ecclesi as ti ca l Commission. Now the fact was that the only I sariner in which the Commission alluded to th e se p aration of h,° Courts was by stating that Lord Melbour ne had said that Noble Majesty was favourable to the proposed meas ure. The ble M arqu i s then went on to observe that the Courts were 0 ' immense advantage to the inhabitants of the county, in th em them to sue for and obtain payment of debts due to .... n eM at a much less expense than in the Cou rts at Weatnain 7r. It was on these grounds that he should oppose the so. a/ration. The D u k e of WELLINGTON had stated on the oc c a sion alluded to by the Noble Marquis, that he had been a p art y to r ecommending his Majesty to appoint this Comm ission, and th at he consequently considered himself in duty bound to sup port the measures it recommended. The Noble Mar q uis dOuglit that be (the Duke of Wellington) had dese r ted and ) PiPpointed him. If he had deserted or disappointed th e Zoble Marquis, he must have made some engagement with the "Gide Marquis to sttpport his view of the subject ; but he C Ould assure the House tilat he never had one word of conver sation with the Noble Marquis on the subject. Th e Marquis of LONDONDERRY explained. After a few words from the Archbishop of CA NTERBURY and the Bishops of EXETER and GLouczsTaa, tha House resolved Itself into a Committee. The Bill passed through Committee, and was reported with S a ltakudments to the House. The report to be recei ved on mondcv next. Thei r Lordships then adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS, JuNE 3. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before 4 o'clock. • IRISH MUNICIPAL REFORM. Th e SHEIOFF of London appeared at the Bar, and presented s 'ek.ition from the Lord Mayor , A ldermen, and Common Outioll assembled, praying t he House to p ass a measure for b rporatz. Reform in Ireland, based on the provisions of the for the Reform of Corporations in England and Wales. Mr. WooD-rnottee, the town-clerk of the city of London, l ibented•a Return of .the Police f orce em p lo y ed b y the city 1:4 London. IPSWICH ELECTION. of the Officers of the Court of King's Bench presented oPisof affi lavits relating to cases o f briber y in the borough Pswich. Lord W. BENTINCK presented the Report of the Corn utittet on the Clyde Navigation Bill. GLASGOW BRIDGE BILL. ti,,, (3n the motion of Mr. OSWALD this Bi ll was read a third - " i t' and passed. WESSENDEN RESERVOIR. BLACKBURNE brought up the Report o f the Corn-. It teo on this Bill. 4 IANCHESTER AND CHESTER JUNCTION RAILWAY. t± l r• B. .WILBRAHAM brought up t he Re p ort of the - Itnitte e on this Bill. LIVERPOOL DOCKS. 13,,, 111. - M. PHILLIPPS presented a petition from the Cham of Commerce - of Manchester , complaining of t he p resent iii t essive rate of dues exacted by the Liverpool Dock Com ity. - . _ m- SOUTHA MPTON WATER-WORKS. tr 4 tis r • DOTTIN brought lip the Report of the Committee "e Southampton Waterworks. i N r EWPORT AND MONMOUTH HARBOUR. Co W RO TTESLEY brought up the Report of the eo tittee on the Newport and M onmouth Harbour. 04STOI, DAMAGES COMPENSATION BILL. the motion of Mr. MILES the ristol D tri Pensetion Bill was read a third time an d passed.amages „ I A A ~,-,, FACTORY BILL. ”tr a • presented a petition from the worsted spin- Pr a d )f Bradford, signed by a large number of manufacturers, 11 ('"g that children JO years of age may be allowed to work of thurs a day in factories ; also a petition from the spinners Parish of liJleagh, praying that children 0 years of fr qm lll 'ght. be allowed ' to 'cork 6 h ours a day ; also a petition t i'e Flax Spinners of Leeds, prAying, that the Factory p etic l 'w before Parliament may ;,!1 passel into a law. The e ty „"°ners stated that although they did not coo44er then- . iti e 'L lr l-erests sufficiently protected by it, y« from the ar!leral deri'ltts introduced by the Right lion. Gentleman, the vre3l - Board of Trade, all the objects w#40 1 4 Ittt PCOITI - • 4 4:1 . : a1 ns on the same subject were presented by- Mr. BLAPg It o Nr. HAany, and anotber film, Member. Major M‘NANI ARA presented petitio is from two parishe* in the county of Clare, prayin g for the total abolition of tithes. Sir W. GEARY presented a petition, praying for an altera tion in the,law of landlord and tenant. Mr. Sergeant WOULFE presented a petition from Cashel, praying for a reduction in the Church Establishment. In a district of sixteen parishes, attached to which there was an in come of 7,9171. there were at present only two Protestant Clergymen by whom the entire spiritual duty of the district was efficiently performed, although the number of Clergymen was formerly ten or twelve ; and the petitioners instanced this as a proof of how much the Protestant Church Establishment might be reduced without impairing its usefulness. Mr. BLACKBURNE .presented a petition from the Trustees of a Turnpike Road in the West Riding of York shire, against the Turnpike Act Amendment Bill. Mr. BOWES complained that the South Durham Railway Committee had not re-assembled, according to the directions of the House. Mr. PEASE said the Committee had been quite ready to meet on the first day of the sitting of the House after the recess, but the parties to the Bill had come to some under standing for the printing of the evidence, which rendered delay unavoidable. They however would meet, in compli ance with the orders of the House, very early next week, in order to consider their Report. Mr. LUCAS presented a petition from the Rector. and Curate and other inhabitants of Monaghan, praying for pro tection to the Sabbath and the prevention of drunkenness. Also a similar petition from the.seceding congregation of the same town to the same effect. IRISH CORPORATIONS. Mr. TURNER presented a petition from Blackburne, pray ing the House not to agree with the Corporation (Irish) Bill as sent down by the House of Lords, and not to agree to any measure which is not of equal extent with those passed for Scotland and England. Dr. BOWRING could assure the House that the whole district near Blackburne were roused upon this question, and were waiting with much anxiety to see what that House would do with the Bill. *Mr.' HENRY GRATTAN presented twelve petitions from different parts of Ireland, praying for the total abolition of tithes, and in favour of the Irish Corporation Bill as sent up to the House of Lords. The last petition was from the High Sheriff and inhabitants of the county of Meath. He m'ght state as a fact, that the moment the people of that county heard of the Bill, they saddled their horses and attended the meeting, and Sir Wil liam Somerville, who had formerly opposed the Repeal of the Union, in consequence of the conduct pursued by the Lordt, declared that he would support it. PAPER DUTIES. Mr. GROTE presented a petition from the persons en gaged in the paper trade in the city of London, praying that the reduction of duty on paper might be accompanied by a drawback equivalent to the stock in hand. IRISH CORPORATIONS. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Kil larney in support of the Government measure on the Tithe question, and praying the House not to adopt the amendments, as they were called, made by the Lords in the Municipal Cor porations (Ireland) Act. Mr. AINSWORTH presented a petition from Bolton in favour of Municipal Reform for Ireland, and praying the House not to concur in any measure of Reform that did not recognise the principles of popular elections in Ireland. EXTINCTION OF TITHES. Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented petitions from Elmer East in Monaghan, Gracque and Kelleskin in Queen's County, Lower Kilcoe and Upper Kilcoe, in the county of Down, from Magherclone, and from Iskeleen ' in the county of Dou gal, praying for the total extinction of tithes, and for corpo rate reform on the same principles as the Bill passed for Eng land. The petition from Iskeleen prayed that if the Tithe Bill was passed, the surplus might be given to the farmers. He could assure the House that Uothinc , short of the total extinc tion of tithes mould satisfy the Catholics b and Presbyterians of Ireland. FACTORIES BILL. Mr. M. PHILLIPPS presented a petition from 104 woollen manufacturers of Kettering, praying for some altera tions in the Act introduced by his Right Hon. Colleague (Mr. P. Thompson.) It was their opinion that the consequence of that Act, unless altered, would be that many of the master manu facturers would be compelled to suspend their operations through want of hands, and it was their conviction that children of nine years of age might, with great propriety, and with a strict_ regard to their health, work during a period of eleven hours. IRISH CORPORATION REFORM. Mr. D. BROWNE presented a petition, praying that the same relief which had been granted with respect to the Cor porations of England, might be granted to Ireland. Also, a petition from Killeen, praying for the total abolition of tithes. FACTORIES. Mr. HOY presented a petition from a place in the West Riding of Yorkshire, praying that children under seven years of age might be allowed to work eleven hours in the day. The Hon. Member also presented a petition from Bolton, praying for an equalisation of the duties on East and West India produce. MUNICIPAL REFORM (IRELAND.) The O'CONNOR DON presented petitions from Kilman and other places in the, county Roscommon, praying that the , House of Commons would not insult the people of Ireland by agreeing to the Lords' amendments to the Irish Municipal Bill, Also petitions praying for the total abolition of Tithes. Mr. F. FRENCH supported the prayer of the petitions, and presented others on the same subject. Mr. LA BOUCHER E presented a petition from the borough he had the honour to represent (Taunton), agreed to at a public meeting of the inhabitants, praying that the House of Commons would not accept any amendments to the Irish Municipal Bill, which would have the effect of depriving the King's subjects in Ireland of Municipal institutions to which they considered the people of Ireland as well entitled as those of England. With respect to a petition presented y e sterday from the borough of Ta u nton to a co ntrar y effect, he begged to say, that although the signatures attached to it were highly respectable, still it did not represent the feelings and wishes of the majority of the inhabitants, and furthermore, it was not got up at a public meeting. Lord GRA NVILLE SOMERSET had passed no opinion upon the petition, but had merely borne testimony to the re spectability of the petitioners. Mr, HOLLAND presented a petition from Worcester, pray ing for . an extension of time to repay the money borrowed for building workhouses. Mr.CODRINGTON presented a petition on the same subject. Mr. SC ARLETT.presented a petition from 280 electors of the Borough of Lewes against the system of vote by ballot, which they designated as subversive of the principles of the British Constitution. Mr. HUME had presented a petition from Lewes, in favour of vote by ballot, which had been agreed to at a public meet ing. Ile supposed the present had been got up at a hole-and corner meeting. Mr. SCA IILETT said the petition which he had just pre sented had been signed by three times as many electors as the one to which the Hon. Member had alluded. Dr. BOWRING presented a petition from a place in Ayr, complaining of mal-administration of the road trusts ; and praying that statute labour might be abolished ;. also peti tions from the same place for the abolition of flogging in the army and impressment in the navy. Mr. 'HUME presented a petition from a parish in the county of Cork, praying that the blood-stained impost tithe might be abolished at cuce, and for ever, and that the Clergy might'be obliged to live upon the offerings of their flocks in the same manner as the Catholic Priesthood. Also, one from the churchwardens and inhabitants of St. Mary-le-Strand, which stated that for the hist 20 years the rector of the parish had annually received 1251. from it, and had only been seen in the parish once or twice. They therefore prayed that the House would not allow pluralities to exist on any account. Mr. A. TREVOR presented a petition from the Clergy of the Arclideacoury and Diocese of Durham against the Ap oroori.itioa of Church Property under the Irish Church Bill to other to other than Ecclesiastical purpose's. Mr, G. HEATHCOTE presented a petition from Lincoln again 4 Ow General Turnpike Act. COLLEGE OF MAYNOOTH. Sir G. S INC 14A111 gave notice, that on the sth of. July he mould move a suspension of the grant of money to Ow Col lege Of Maynooth FACTORIES BILL, Mr. SHEPPARD presented a petition front . the \Vcs Riding of York Oar:, praying that children tea years of agi might be permitted to work eleven hours a day. IRISH MUNICIPAL REFORM. Mr. O'LOUGHLEN presented a petition from Dungar von against the Lords' amendments to the Irish Munie:pal Bill Lalso for the abolition of tithes. MUNICIPAL CORPORATION (SCOTLAND) BILL, At the request of Sir G. CLERK, The LORD ADVOCATE agreed to postpone this Bil until this day week. TRADE '`VITA PORTUGAL. Mr. ROBINSON, in pursuance of a notice given on a former evening, had a question to put to the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whom he did not now see i n bi g place, respecting an act of the Portuguese. Government, in raising the duties on British produce with out notice to the merchants of this country. lie begged to know whether the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department on behalf of his Noble Colleague was ' able to afford any information on the subject. No answer having been returned, the Horn Member said be would postpone the quection to Monday. Sir R. BATE ii.)N begged to ask the Noble Lord the Se cretary for Ireland, whether he had received a nypetition from eertaip magistrates of the county of Londonderry, complaining of the removal of Mr. Gore Jones? Lord moßpgTii had neither received nor beard any thing of such a petition Wing been forwarded to him. Mr. JACKSON had reeeive4 0. le4er from Londonderry, stating that the petitioS TAMPn had beeoDU TII4 forwarded, , Sir JAMES GRAHAM begged to knew Olen his Ma would bring forward the question of the jesty's Gostermoiint , Stamp Duties? next, or some .€lff snbsequently. Lord JOHN It.lloo-3, P O PI4 Rot #x the day precisely; but it would etude an OP PridAY COMMUTATION OF TIVI4S (1F.i4f.41.1p)._. ADJOURNED DEfipyr, • The Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned debate having M been r. JACKSON had intot4e4 taking part at an carlici stage in the debate, but he did not regret it, Ps tince its com mthrwe#4e-t several gentlemen ha d addressed the House, and he thought •Itiey $ in its progress the important question now under the consideration to file House justly and• truly stateti. The question now resolved' ifs'elb %qr. Iluey to have 4n h44 1 4 - *Q,4 .9.))4reli iq Ireland or not? Verhaps he had limited the question int ) too narrow a compass in stating it so, but he believed the question was one affecting not only the interests of Ireland, but of this great and extensive empire. The question was no less than this—were they to have an Established Church at all? And sooner or later it would come to this—were they to have preserved to them and their posterity, the blessings of the Protestant religion? That was really the question at issue between the two sides of the House. It had been openly avowed that the " nuisance," as it was called, was to be abated. " Delenda est Carthago—' , and the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary had last night used the startling exclamation—" Down with an insti tution which cannot be sustained save by Old Sarum and Gatton." Others had distinctly stated both within and with out that House, that the nuisance must be abated, and he was quite aware that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had spoken of the abuses of the Church ; but he b :lieved he would la,. borne out by the gentlemen around him, that he had faithfully stated the Hon. and Learned Member's language. The Hon. and Learned Member had afterwards ;aid perhaps he ought to be understood as confining himself to the abuses of the Irish Church. At the time the Hon. Gentleman was addressing the House, he had made a memorandum as he proceeded of the several topics he urged as bearing upon the Established Church. The first and main charge he preferred against the Esta blished Church was, that Ministers bad had the audacity to assert their claims to a legal and incontrovertible right. —(Cheers. ) Now, he would ask if the Protestant Clergy of Ireland had asserted their rights through the laws of the land, were they to be maligned and upbraided for doing so ?, (Loud cheering.) , The property had belonged to the Church for ages : it was the property of the Church by a period of prescription of great duration—it rested not only upon the prescription of ages, but upon one of the most solemn compacts that ever could be made.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He referred to the Legislative Union existing between the two countries.—( Cheers.) It was by express enactment made an indispensable and fundamental part of the union that the united church established in Ireland should be maintained and preserved. It was not to be forgotten that that was an' Act not passed by merely the representatives of a Pro testant union, but by the representatives of the people of Ireland, who were in a great measure Catholics. The next charge pre ferred was against the body of the Clergy, that they had not only asserted their rights, but they held them by a body called the Lay Association.—( Hear, hear.) He attended in his place on the day in which that notice was moved. It . was not moved—it was withdrawn sub silentio. It was put again on the book on a day when his duty compelled him to be in the sister country.--( Hear from the Opposition.) It was, however, only just to say that the Honourable and Learned Member, on his (Sergeant Jickson's) statement, withdrew his notice for that day. From that time he had heard nothing more upon the subject. It had never suited the convenience of the Learned Gentleman to bring the question forward. If he did bring it forward, he ( Sergeant Jackson) would be_ prepared to meet him. He feared not but that he would satisfy the House that this asio ciation, so far from being illegal, was perfectly warranted by the spirit and the word of the law of the land.--( Hear, hear.) The next topic which the Hon. and Learned Member had ventured to touch was, that the High Court of Exchequer had arrayed itself against the Government of the country. —( Loud cheers front the Ministerial side of the House. ) Hon. Gentlemen cheered. Did they think it right that such charges should be made ?--( Loud cheers from the Opposi tion.) Did they think it likely to be useful to the country, or that it would produce respect for the law or its officers?— (Renewed cheering fro.n the same quarter.) Was it to be believed that his Majesty's Ministers should sit and hear such charges, and not one of them rise to refute them? —( Loud cheering from the Opposition.) Nothing could be more mischievous than charges of this description. But the charge might be very justly inverted, and it might be said that the Government had arrayed itself against the High Courts of Law.—(Tremendous cheering from the Oppo sition.) Insinuations had been liberally dealt out against the Judges of the Court of Exchequer personally—( Hear, hear)—and, amongst others, it had been said that Baron Smith had attended for the first time after a great lapse of time, when this important Tithe question came before the Court. The Learned Baron bad no notion that such a motion was to come on on Friday, and yet it had been asserted that he came down to Court for the special purpose, although absent for some days before from indisposition. The Hen. and.. Learned Member for Tipperary had alluded to the shedding of blood in Ireland, and had particu'arly referred to the Rathcormac slaughter. Every man of common humanity must deplore that melancholy event ; but was this chargeable on the Church of Ireland, or on the respectable clergy belonging to that Church ? He took upon himself to deny that it was chargeable upon the clergy, but he would tell the House who was responsible for the blood that had been shed. The Agitators, and the Agi tators alone, vipre the parties upon whom the responsibility must. devolve. With respect to the Rathcormac affair he denied that the clergyman was in any degree chargeable in the blood that had been shed. What were the facts ? A large arrear of tithe was due by the widow Ryan, and other parishioners, to Archdeacon Rider and others ; and when he applied for payment they told 'him " their lives would not be worth a week's purchase if they complied with his demand, but that if he brought the military or police, and showed that they were acting under compulsion, he shouln have every shilling of his tithes." Under these circumstances the Arch deacon applied for the aid of the military, and the Govern ment of that day very properly granted it. The soldiers were obliged to fire, in order to preserve their own lives, for they were hemmed up in a narrow lane by the peasantry just like the unfortunate police, whose lives were sacrificed at Carrick shock. These were the plain facts of the case, and he put it - t3 the House whether the respectable Clergyman was charge-- Able with the melancholy loss of life which had unfortu nately taken place 2—( Hear, hear.) As an instance of the expedients resorted, to he would state this fact. There was exhibited in front of the Committee-room of one of the candidates for the city of Cork, a painting, or daub, re presenting the massacre at Ratheormac ; and such was the terror and excitement, that the King's troops were obliged to be called out to protect the voters in going to the hustings. The Hon. and Learned Member had travelled from Rathcor mac to Inniscarra—the circumstances connected with which were, so far as regarded the character of the clergyman, more unfounded if possible than the other: That clergyman was stigmatized as a murderer, and in the eloquent language of the lion. and Learned Member, he had been described as wiping the tears from' his eyes with his bloody hands. The only thing was, that there was not a particle of tr uth in that statement. Mr. H. GRATTAN said the statement was quite correct. Mr. JACKSON—Did the Hon. Member mean to say that the statement of the clergyman wiping his eyes with his bloody hands was literally true?—(Mr. Grattan again made an observation, but was , called to order by the Speaker. ) The Reverend Gentleman was not present at all, arid the statement that he had pistols was equally groundless, for he never had a pistol in his house. The Hon Mmber then went into the circumstances connected with Inniscarra affair. To say that it was a wanton firing on the people, was a most grievous perversion of the truth.—( Hear, hear.) A Clergyman had sued an Hon. and Learned Gentleman, a Member of that House, and that Hon. and Learned Gen • tleman wrote a letter to the clergyman, stating he bad his option between giving up his seat for Tipperary, and withholding the Tithes.—(Bear, hear, from the Opposi tion.) Was that an 'excuse for any man living, to with hold that from another which was justly due to him ?—( Hear.) Was it to be tolerated that a man could not exercise his functions, without being under the protection of the soldiers even in the House of God ?—( Hear, hear.) ___..(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) The Gentlemen opposite cheered him as much as to say they had brought it upon themselves.—(Cries of " No, no.") If the Clergy were not chargeable with it, who was? It bad not happened by chance only, or accident. It was the consequence of causes. The causes were agitation—( Loud cheers)—long continued and reiterated agitation—agitation and misrepresentation directed to a people who were the most easily excited on the face of the earth. If the Clergy were held up as murderers, if the magistracy were called murderers, if the soldiers were called the instruments of murder, and if the people were con tinually reminded of the blood-stained tithes, was it a matter of surprise that they should be led into excesses?—( Cheers.) Almost uniformly the Protestant clergymen extend to their Catholic brethren the privilege of exemotion from tithe: That - had been done in the present instance, and yet this Catholic Cler gymen asserted to his flo. k that he was to be sent to gaol for not paying his tithes. He had in his hand the letter of that man, expressing his gratitude for that very favour, and yet he had attempted to point out this clergyman to his flock as an object of their indignation and hatred. It could net be believed except by those who had seen, it, the devoted attachment of Roman Catholics in Ireland to their priests, and the danger, therefore, to any man of being accused of a disposition to in jure them. The writer of the letter also stated that when he went out to walk with the females of his family they were fre quently insulted with the most disgusting language, which he would not repeat, and that on two occasions, when returning home on horseback from his church, he had been attacked by several men, who put his life to hazard if he did 'not take an oath not to collect tithes any more. That his horse and him self had been frequently struck with stones, and songs were sung in derision of him. This cruel treatment had in a great degree ceased since the cholera raged in the district, because the people found that, notwithstanding their ill-treatment of him, he did not desert them in their sickness and destitution. —(Cheers.) He (Sergeant Jackson) could confidently assert that there was no class of men who so readily came forward to administer to the wants of all descriptions of their parishioners as the Protestant Clergy of Ireland. It would be the greatest misfortune to the Roman Catholic poor of Ireland if they were deprived of the affectionate care of the Protestant Clergy. Wottlll the House believe that the distress of the Protestant Clergy had been made a whjact of !idiot& insto44 of vinpathy? In a letter published by p r . WHale the Roman Catholic shopof Tuam, and addressed to the Bishop of London, that Rev. It e r soff sa y § „ , i Thpre fs tiomegaing ht the very soil and climate of Ireland uncongenial to error, and Which disposed the people never to bend their necks to the ignorant yoke of Pro testantism. Th e p rg tptont Church of Ireland is doomed to destruction by the dpprpes of the Hope of Lords, awl with the Protestant Orgy fasting has become a favoorite amusement." —( Strong riip riliqrs p f i r i44pation t ) This was the sympathy, coninued the Hon. and Learned §ergeant, which one Christian Minister expressed for the sufferings of another.--( Cheers.) The letter Fent no to say that the writer agreed with Malthus, that celibacy was bettq'than to borllien gopiety with an Rupp vided offspring. He Sergeant Jackson) would put it to the ,opp9Site ? wheSe Mi!l9bropnt to the Established Church as a sluceve memii" of it b e itiP§t OiAr o l4o l- Y 11Pli91Tclt if it did not thrill lbo b l " 4 .111 his "1116 to boar itt'. 4ll aniu“P from a Minister of the Gospel—(Cheers)—and lie askei. Noble Lord would be !end the authority of his name, his cha racter, ind . ho4leOfs to'ihe advrecipent of B'lo wipipil TR jects as Were avqwed . hie writer pr this lelie - r; ttio opbnly declared that the stahfished Church of Ireland must fall ?..-L THE SUN, LOiVDON, SATURDAY. JUNE 4, 1836. (Chears.) This letter was addressed to the Bishop of the dioce,e of London, and to such a man, a Protestant Prelate, the writer of the letter had. the hardihood to address his threats of destruction to the Protestant Church. (Cheers.) However greatly he admired the talents and elo quence of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Sheil), he must dcclere that he had the night before introduced many topics in his speech that did not appear to him (Sergeant Jackson) to have any application to the subject under discus sion. He had drawn a contrast between this country and Russia, and the conduct of Russia to Poland. Did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman wish to live under a despotic Go vernment rather than the free Government of this country ? Scotia ad had been mentioned, and it had been said that there was as much difference between the religion of the people of Seotlaad and the Protestant Church as there was between the Protestants and the Roman Catholics ; but this he utterly denied ; The people of Scotland, the Minister of the Church of England, the Protestant Church of Ireland could all em brace each other as fellow Christians —( Loud cheers)—but not so the Protestants and Roman Catholics. In dealing with the criestion of tithes, it should never be lost sight of that the great body of the property of Ireland was in the hands of Pro testants, and that it was they, therefore, and not the Roman Catholics, who chiefly - bore the burthen of tithes ; and if tithes were to be abolished to-morrow they would go into the pockets of the proprietors, arid not into those of the occupiers. The strong tie that bound Ireland to England was the Pro tes;a it Church Establishment, and that once abolished the link was at once broken. There could be no doubt that the Rom In Catholics forthed the majority of the population of Ireland. They were therefore jus:tilied,- according to the doc trine laid down last night by the Noble Lord (J. Russell), in thinking that their religion ought to be the established religon of the country. If this was the case, why stop short at so paltry a sum as 50,000/. ?—( Cheers.) Did he not know that if he yielded so much to the Member for Kilkenny (Me. O'Connell) he must eventually be compelled to give him up the whole. How much would content the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ? Would 50,0001.—would 100,000/. ? He would prove to the Houie, from the words of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself, that it would not. He would prove that his object was to put an end completely to the Protestant Church in Ireland. Give that Hon. and Learned Gentleman the appropriation clause, give him that platform to stand upon, and it was easy to see what use he would make of it. He himself told them what use he Would make of it; and, to do him justice. he would upon this point be a man to his word. He (Mr.! Jackson), now held i ► his 11:441 a. letter written by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to a Member of that House. He regretted the Noble Lord (J. Russell), was not now in his place.—(llear, hear, and a laugh from the Ministerial benches.) He was well aware that anything he could say would have but little weight with Ministers ; and, indeed, there. was not . one of them now present,—( Cheers from' the Opposition.) If they were, they might learn a lesson as to the views and opinions of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, from their looks, and their manner, and their cheers upitin this oceosion. In a letter addressed by the Hon. and Learned Gentleinan the Member for Kilkenny, in 1834, to his Hon'. Friend the Member for Dundalk, he stated his reasons for accepting, at that time, only a partial reduction of tithe.—' [The letter was read. It stated in substance that he (Mr. O'Connell) wanted a reduction to the amount of three fifths, but could get no more than two-fifths, which he accepted, as he could not destroy the whole ; that he was always ready to accept any instalment, however sm of that debt of justice which was due to the people of Ireland. It was the true national debt of Ireland ; that though he now got only a part, he was determined to go on and look for the whole.l He was greatly surprised last night to hear the Noble Lord (J. Rus sell) say that the use of an Establishment was for the instruc- ticrrc of the people. He always thought, and he thought so still, that the 1130 of an Establishment was to teach religion. The Noble Lord said he was not prepared to carry out his prin ciple of a majority in Ireland. He would be called upon to do so, The Hon. Member for Kilkenny would compel him to do so ; otherwise he, who put the present Ministers into their sca'.s, would put them out. This he told the Noble Lord—( A Member on the Ministerial benches—" Unless they do justice to Ire land.") Now, what was justice to Ireland ? Did it only mean a recognition of the principles of appropriation? What would it be next Thursday ? (Cheers from the Opposition.) They would then, no doubt, be called upou to do justice to Ireland— to give her municipal corporations, normal schools of agitation from one end of the country to the other. On Thursday they would have the Peers, lay and clerical, abused because they presumed to differ from the wise and potent House of Com mons. They would be told that, without an organic change in the constitution of the Honse of Lords, justice meld not be done to Ireland. It was quite impossible to say what would be the ultimatum of justice to Ireland. He must confess that he admired last night the frankness of the Member for Water ford ( Mr. Barron). That lima. Gentleman said that if pro perty of any kind was to be borne down by popular clamour and agitation, no property could be safe. Now, why not support the right s o f the Church to her property ? He had no doubt that the laws would be submitted to in Ireland if they were impartially administered. He could not, however, approve of the attacks which the same lion. Member (Mr. Barron) made upon a Noble Lord ( Stanley) not now in his place. It was not just on the part of that Hon. Member to say that the Noble Lord did not wish and did not mo- t o...ad settle the tithe question ; that what he wanted, aim through means of that question, to undermin e the present Ministers, and then to take their place!, Did not the Member for \Va. tet ford well kntiw that the reason why the Noble Lord abjured place and power, was because he would not consent to have the property of the Church alienated ?—( Cheers.) Sooner than do that he abandoned place and power, and forsook the friends with whom he had so ton.- acted ?—( Cheers.) The 0t.”, 2 tv4os • deeply indebted to that Noble Lord for having given so much of his time to the preparation of his Bill. It contained ail that was valuable in the Ministerial measure, with ereat improvements which the, other Bill had not. TO the Ministerial measure he objected, not only to the appropria tion clause, but to other arrangements. He felt quite confi 'lent the present Bill was not prepared by the Noble Lord (J. Russell). Somebody, however, must have prepared it. He could not say whom. He objected to it, also, because it did away entirely with the Protestant boundaries of pa rishes, having the Roman Catholic boundaries as they were. Th e returns of the Commissioners of Public Instruction were not to be relied upon.----( Hear, hear.) He had seen p letter fro m a p r i es t in the co un ty o f Cork, in which h e h a d s t ate d that he would take very good care there should not he fifty Protesta.its in his parish.—(Opposition cheers, and a cry of 4. N a rn.") He would not mention names ; but he was ready to' pledge himself, if the House would allow an inquiry into the subject, to prove that the threat was not only held Out, but followed up.--( Hear, hear.) He had the word or a Clergyman, a dignitary of the Established Church for the fact, hi whose veracity he could place the 'most implicit reliance. The NuMe Secretary of State for the Home Department had thought it expedient, for the purpose of withdrawing the at tention of the House from the real question before them, to re fer to a variety of topics altogether foreign to the occasion, and among others to the improvements, as he called them, which had been effected by his Right Hon. Friend the Attorney-Ge neral for Ireland in the administration of the law in that part of the country. The Noble Lord laid peculiar stress on the :advantage which had been found to result from the disconti nuance of the practice which hitherto prevailed of challenging juries on the part of the Crown. That was a matter of the greatest importance ; but in his opinion the alteration intro duced by his Right Hon. and Learned Friend was by no meal ' s calculated to produce the happy results ascribed to it. lie should be sorry if he, in the course of his speech, had said anything at all calculated to wound the feelings of any individual in that House or out of it ; but, adverting, in con clusion, to the Act of 1829, which distinctly, in the oath by which it was accompanied, provided for the security and in violate maintenance of the property belonging to the Protes tant Church, he could not help appealing, if not to the con sciences, to the sense of honour and generosity of Roman Catholic Members, whether they could as gentlemen reconcile it to their feelings to alienate any portion of that Protestant property which they had sworn to maintain ?—(Cheers. ) Mr. WA RD said, looking at the position assumed by the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire, he could not but ex •• press his astonishment that, with all his talents and influence, he hail so long' remained utterly regardless of the .mighty changes which, isince the Reform Bill, had been operated around hint—a landmark to show how far popular opinion bad shot a-Lead of him.--( Hear, hear, hear.) The• Noble Lord's principle was, that the Establishment should be continued in all its full integrity, and that not one farthing of its surplus funds should be dedicated to the benefit of the Catholic popu lation, but that it should be distributed in each locality among the Prutestant Ministers of the Irish Church ; that the Ca tholics should haVe nothing to look for but perpetual sub mission to a yoke which, while the Noble Lord wielded all the power of this country in Ireland, he found it impossible to impose on them. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member _for Cumberland, who spoke last night (Sir James Graham) altogether repudiated the principle upon which this Bill was fouoded, and to which the House had solemnly pledged itself. He was not disposed to quarrel with many of the details of the Bill as. proposed by the Noble Lord (Stanley), but he could not help observing that in so far as they were likely to be beneficial, they precisely harmonised with the provisions of the Government Bill. The Noble Lord recommended a dif ferent distribution of the tithe fund ; lie proposed to parcel it out among the Ministers of the Protestant Church, and, after increasing th e i r a ll owances, rat h er than g i ve the Cat h o li cs t h e benefit of any t hi ng t h at m i g h t rema i n, he wou ld h o ild addi tional chur c h es, an d carry the ramifications the Church Rata blishment t o t h e remotest part of the country. What a Pic tore did I re l an d present of what the Noble L or d wa s pleased to eon " the worki ng o f a na ti ona l Ch urc h !" where the olergy were obliged to have recourse to an obsolete Exchequer pro cess, with the assistance of the army and the police , and the actual sheddi ng o f h uman bl oo d , i n order to extract from their reluctant parishioners the amount of their tithes 1 And why? reams° that national Church comprehended within its pale but a small fraction of the people, there being 7 . ,q00 000 I Catholics and only 78 9 ,000 Episcopalian Note Such was the ugtem the' stants in Ire lant R*Ale Lord would still maint4in: 80, far from the E s tablishment being the real bond of Union b.‘tween the twocoontries4 as had been repre sPatO bY the Hon. and Learned gergeant who had just ad dressed the House, lie was disposed to regard it as the grand caw wl l y the Union had not worked well, There were but two elements of calcuhltion pp tito other side of the House - 7 ,1 41441 A Prot e mp li t s 1 $0 many acres; so many Protestants, and so many Clergymen, who it seemed were all to be gentlemen. He admitted they should be gentletat% if. by re'.;iitneraiion, it ought !!!a eNPre4sion i t were mert t i c ,y %ImitlereiiCive the ad ”ntis OA iii)er-al . edueation, so as to qualify them ff.,. ,-• ing toe spiritual charge of tio‘;.• 4 1 - ,, - 1 ,,5; tan rtopoot to to be borne ; ii wood that there were among the corn , ri r3 , -:- • -. , - Dissenters • pug . i ,,,,,,5t.uts 10.1 > tioo in Ire ' .ti, 4 4 what I ,4 a' s It! '''.. ' ' .. . , m amounted to only 0,000/, a-year, which was distributed ' . ' ' .....i.,,T 1 1 . 1 1 11 01 11! o f irclAnci io three classes—the first -*: - . .but.,.7--• • --- ~,,K. • of IDOL, the second of 751., and the third of only 501., pre senting a State provision for the spiritual instruction of a flock equal in numbers, or very nearly equal, to the whole congrega tion of Episcopalian Protestants in that part of the country. But if land and Protestants were the only elements of calcula tion on the subject, he begged to ask were there no Catholics oh th ose acres w hi c h had' been assigned to. the Protestant Church 7 The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) h'td intimated that the wishes, feelings, and interests of Roman Catholics should not be taken into consideration in discussing; such a subject as this. Still, the Catholic population of a country amounting to seven millions, possessing . a repre sentative Governme n t, not su bj ect to a military despotism, but exercising more or lets freely the elective franchise, formed an item not, lie conceived, to be altogether over looked in the consideration of this question. The principle of this whole measure was conciliation, a word which, perhaps, the Right lion. Baronet ( Sir J. Graham) would repudiate ; nevertheless he repeated the principle of the whole measure was conciliation of the Catholic population of Ireland, and conciliation, at the present time, by a very smell concession indeed. He would not be guilty of the hypocrisy of repre senting this as a final measure.—( Hear, hear.) Looking at the establishment in the state in which this Bill would leave it, it was imeotsible for him, with the principles he main tained, to consider it a final measure. Its Bishops alone cost 151,000/. a-year. He did not see why four Bishops and one Archbishop should not suffice for all the wants of an Epigrnpal establishment, and that ,would reduce the exper"7..: to 30,000/. If ono Bishop were enough for London with 1,700,000 inhabi tants, why not four Bishops and one Archbishop for 750,000 Episcopalian Protestants in irelaao The lion. Member then alluded to the scale of clerical remuneration in Scotland, and urged the necessity of reducing the Irish establishment to the same level, lle ( Mr. Ward) thought that the Church of Scotland furnished an example of what the Church of Ireland ought to be ; for by no Church were the daties of the Chris tian religion better performed, or its objects better effected. The speech on a former Evening of the Honourable Mem ber for Weymouth, showed what might fairly be presumed to be the opinions of a very influential body of Protest ants on that 'eas, His Hon, F r i en d b a d expresse d hi s coact:mance in that system, whitha had been so attacked. The essential featuro of that system was its neutrality as regarded the individuals among whom it dispensed its benefits; and it was in his (Mr. Ward's) opinion greatly to be regretted that the dignitaries and clergy of the Church of Ireland should have set their fames against it from its commencement. Their apposlt'lon had been unfortunate for Ireland. He was sup ported in this view by the opinion of the Rev. Mr. Carlyle, a Protestant clergyman, who in a published paper on the sub ject lamented the opposition of the Church and of the Orange body generally, to the system of education adopted by the Commissioners. He was also supported in his opinion by the Rev. Mr. Stanley, a Protestant clergyman, who had been to Ireland for the express purpose of watching the Ole-eta of the system, and who spoke of them in the strongest terms of praise. Under this view of the ease he (Mr. Ward) could not bring himself to appPohond danger to the religion which lie prekesecl, and which he believed to be' the mewl pure form •of •Cheistianity, front the introduction of education into Ire land.—(Hear, hear.) But, leasir t i ail - minor •ohjcsotions, he would at once come to a very strong objection which had been raised against tho measure by the Noble Lord ( Stanley) and his supporters—that of the appropriation clause being sup ported for nothing more than that it was a bond of union for two political parties. Why, every great question of late years had been a bond of union, whether for support or opposi tion ; for instance, the Test Acts, Repeal, Catholic Emanci pation ; and the Reform Bill itself was a bond of union for the Noble Lord and the Irish Members until it was passed. —( Hear, hear.) The Isiah: Lord, and those who supported him, talked about the question being left to the good sense of the people of England. Tho people of England had already been twice appealed to on it, and their answer had been un favourable to the Noble Lord's views. Every one must recol lect the circumstances under which the Right lion. Baronet opposite came into power. He was absent from this country, but was sent for by the King, and entered office, certainly, with the well-merited confidence of the people. Well, as soon as he returned to this country, his first declaration as to the course which his Government meant to vitteinie \Yea anxiously looked for by all parties. That declaration was made ; and he must admit that in the Right Hon. Baronet's address he saw much which seemed to coincide with what he conceived to be the principles of sound and rational reform. He then said, that if such were the principles on which the Conservatives meant to act he could see but little diffe rence between the opinions of the two political parties into which the country was divided. They seemed to him to dis agree only on one point ; and that was the question of appro priation—the Right Hon. Baronet declaring that he " never would consent to the alienation of ecclesiastical property for other than ecclesiastical purposes." It was on this vel; point that the dissolution took place, and it was on tho e i s, es ti se relativ e to t h e Ch urc h o f I re l art d t h at the wh' - 'fie of the last elections turned. That was the point m^:oied on the hustings, and that was the ground upon 01 '.',e n a strong Protestant feel. ing was sought to be arou'...t throughout the country. Well, what was the result Whv, that after a brilliant struggle, every way ..orthy of the high reputation of the Right Hon. sotronet, he found himself seated on the Opposition benches, awl advocating principles to which he had previously been hostile. The Right lion. Baronet had warned them of the danger of a collision with the House of Lords, and spoke of revolution as being the inevitable consequence. If they were to have revolution, all he (Mr. Ward) could say was, that it vas not to be apprehended from the popular party. What he desired was peace, but then if peace were only to be obtained at the expense of principle and denying justice to the Irish people, he would not purchase it at any such price. However solicitous he was Tor peace, he would make minous concessions—( Hear, hear)--and, such being his feel ings, lie could have little difficulty or hesitation as to the mari ner in which he should give his vote—(Hear.) Mr. D. W. HARVEY said that it would be of course for the country to consider which of the two Bills, that of the Government, or that of the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire, was best calculated to work out the object which all parties had in view. He would not enter into any dis cussion of this part of the subject, because on it he differed both from the Noble Lord and his Majesty's Government ; but still, if he were the advocate of the Established Church— if- he believed in its importance, its essentiality, in its Chris tianity, and thought that it ought to be binding on all civil in stitutions, he must say that he would not pause for a moment in making his selection of the Bill proposed by the Noble Lord, in preference to that brought forward by his Majesty's Government.—( Cheers from the Opposition side of the House, answered by ironical cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He was well aware how ironical were the cheers with which his declaration had been received by the lion. Members. opposite—(The Hon. Gentleman addressed the House from the Opposition side)—and that he was conceding to them a spirit of sincerity which they did not deserve._ (Renewed ironical cheers and laughter.) Ile woo/d not shrink, however, from giving free expression to the opinions which he entertained—opinions which he had always avewed, because he had not been in the habit of taking up an opinion one day, and abandoning it the next moment. Neither did he fear that any Hon. Gentleman would run -to the library to rake up inconsistencies in his speeches to fling them in his face. He never concealed his sincere conviction that Chris- tianity was purely a spiritual principle, which had nothing whatever to do with civil institutions, that a Church based on the doctrines of Christianity as propounded by the Scriptures, was by its alliance with the State seriously hindered in its pro gress and usefulness, and impeded in the power which it would otherwise possess. A sublime system of religion wanted no such connection, and was only prejudiced by its union with the State ; but that was not the question which they had now to discuss,_ because the Hon. Member for St. Alban's had told them that they were not called upon to regard this as a final measur;‘. He should like to know whether he was to consider the Hon. Member as the organ of the Government in this re spect, aod for the reason that such a statement was at direct variance with the preamble of the Bill brought in by the Go vernment.—( Hear, from the Opposition benches.) They all knew th it the Roman Catholic religion was an ancient reli gion, end the history of that religion proved that it had been invarially the same under all circumstances and at all periods. It was, then, in his 'opinion, utterly impossible for any con scientious Roman Catholic to say that he would be satisfied with this measure—a measure which had for its object the perpetuation of the Protestant religion.—( Loud and conti nued cheering.) No Roman Catholic could say that he would without exposing himself to the 'eltaTe of hypocrisy— ( Renewed cheering)--nor was it expected by the Hon. Mem bers opposite that he wuuld, This assertion was received without a cheer, but ho could not understand why truth, and they nil know he spoke only the truth, should not be cheered. Ile (Mr. D. W. Harvey) knew they were silent in charity only to themselves—(lronical cheering from the Ministerial benches)—but he would not shrink from the honest and P.-an declaration of the opinion which he entertained. Well, this measure was proposed with the view of tranquillizing- Ireland, and was it not his duty, the duty of cv‘rey Hon. Member of that House, to investigate the mailer, and see whether that statement was accurate or not? Now he asked, would it ac complish that object ? Why, it was manifest from the state ment of the Hon. Member for St. Alban's that it was not the wish or desire of those with whom he acted that this Bill should be a final measure. He did not mean to say 04 1 4 it could not be perpetual do what they might ; but he did think that they should render it as final as it could be made, considering the purpose for which it was designed, according to Parliamentary calculation. It was impossible that the Dissenters of either England or Ireland could wish to see the downfall of the Protestant religion; and,. therefore, as a Dissenter himself, he must express his lope that they would pass no measure which had not for its ob ject the permanency of the Eatabllshecl Church.—( Cheers.) This Bill proposed to commute tithes into a rent-charge on the land, Ruch a provision was calculated to give advantage t o t 1 4 .0 agricultural interests ; but then the great question was, whether, when they had commuted the tithe into a ent-chzge, the charge would answer the end for which it was made? Ile did not believe it would, Though the name of tithes might be altered, the substance would remain the same. If tithes i n Ireland ought to be abolished, and he thought they ought, whore was the necessity of this tardy justice—this miserable c mtrivance ? Why not come forward boldly at once to effect that object, instead of pretending that the Wtaution was the maintenance of the Church ? ThAt wanl4 be an intow course to pursue, ancl fof. pig part ho wont' ••, coursetAtan teakiiiieh tingene,-- iattler take that It wal not only his . and paltry conco'si°"tliers that tb- ~,,,coon, but the convictions of many 0 all ; •-- proposed arrangement could only be tempotricarnrya,nd: that, it would lead eventually to much g (2. Some distinguished members of the EstahliSh r e c d: of this opi nion, them the Rev. Dr. [links, was precisely of to his Church, and nion, for he said, " Let none lay the flattering soul that the hatred is against tithes. The hared is against the Established religion ; and, even though you change tithes into another description of property, std the hatred will not be dispelled, because it is directed against the religion which is endowed with tithes. To whatever they'changed tithes the hatred would be transferred, because it was the application of them that was odious to the millions in Ireland, and therefore the only operation which the change proposed could have would be to endanger the payment of the landlords' rent." These were the opinions of an eminent and distinguished Protestant. The Dissenters might perhaps wish a afferent application of tithes. He, for one, deemed them public pro. perty, and he thought they ought to be made applicable to the education of the children of the pour, and the support of the agel and the infirm, instead, as would be. the effect of this me isure, of being transferred into the pockets of the Irish landlords. Against any such proceeding he entered his protest. He knew that what he stated would be cheered by neither side of the House, because it was unpalatable. to both.—(Cheers and laughter.) If this Bill were peseeed there could be little doubt that it would notb : L , proprieto r a before a similar arrangement was made for . En ip he thought lie could discern the chuckling of the of land in this country' at the prospect they had of virus cipating in an advantage similar tS, that given to the landlords of Ireland, namely, putin'ag into their own pockets 25 or 30 per cent. of the e'ts, incomes of the clergy ; and yes, in the face o f a ll-+i .s, Noble Lord the Member for La u .. ha-cashire _ protested against appropriation, and wessid ..e them believe that he was standing up for the rights of the Established Church ! Why, after this, could it be said that appropriation was not a common object of both Bills ; for did not they fully agree in taking as rench as they could of the property of the Church, in order to apply it to the very worst of all secular purposes, namely, that of en riching the landlords at the expense of the Clergy? Yet on this both parties were ready to go to the country ; but he waist say that it strongly recalled to his mind the fable of the cat and the monkey. The cat had obtained a piece of cheese, and gave it to the monkey to decide how it should be disposed of. What did the monkey do ? Why, it first bit a lump off one side and then a lump off the other, until the piece of cheese became so reduced in size that the cat got alarmed, upon seeing which the monkey swallowed the residue, at the same time telling the cat that justice could not otherwise be done.—( A laugh.) Now let them see how the Bill was likely to work. It would accomplish one of two things, or both ; but certain it was, that whatever might be its effect, the Con solidated Fund would in the end have to pay the entire stipends of tho Protestant Clergy of' Ireland.—( Opposition cheers.) What did the Bill now before the House propose? Why it proposed to abolish tithes a'together in Ireland, and that every 1001. of tithe should be made a charge of 751. on the land. This rent charge of seven-tenths "was to be received in future by the Woods and Foreste; and the parties entitled to re ceive it were on the Ist of January in each year to receive drafts for th© amount of their incomes on the Bank of Ireland, and those', drafts, if not paid before the Ist of February follow ing, were to bear interest. The Government in short took upon itself the payment of the whole of this money, Welch, if the matter were left alone, would be recovered byt7ne clergy from the tithe-payer.—( Cheers.) Even suppos2.ng that this measure met the concurrent approbation of iatholic, Protes tant, and Dissenter, it could not put art rend to the resistance to the payment of tithes in Ireland. TA was-a delusion to sup pose that the tax under the- mus e of rent-charge would be more cheerfully paid than when, it existed under the name of tithes.—( Hear, hear.) The people of Ireland would soon discover the delueion—they would discover that this was an attempt to mislead tliem—ant that under another name they would have to pay the same money, and to the same amount, for the support of the Protestant Church. This attempt to conceal the real object of the measure froth the people was just like those means that were resorted to to persuade chll- dren to take physic; the medicine was disguised under Some palatable form. " Come, my little dear, take it ; it trill do you good."—( A laugh.) The people of Ireland were quick, intelligent, and jealous of insult ; and it was an insult to their understandings to say to them, " We will not ask you to pay tidies under the name of tithes; we will give some more fashionable designation, and call it rent-charge ; and surely then you cannot possibly object to' pay it."—(Loud laughter.) This might succeed for a year or two ; but at the end of that time the same agitation, the same hostility, the same organised resistance—( Cheers from the Opposition).— which now prevailed against tithes in Ireland, wou ld t h en ex i st against rent charge. But what was the remedy to put an end to the resistance that was now so ripe against tithes in Ireland ? It was this—that the rent charge 'should be made a principal charge upon the land, and to gisve the same remedy to enforce its payment that now existed to enforce the payment of rent. What would in a few years be the necessary result en': th' s measure ? The tame resistance as before would preeeil, the tithe would. k'e paid in some instances and withheld in others. What, ie the mean time, would be happening ?--( Hear, hear, hetne ) You would have entered into a ceriain engagement with the Clergy to buy their tithes. The Commissioners of the Woods and Forests, under all the circumstances, would be compelled to pay those Clergymen under the terms of their agreement, at least until 1843. The agitation which would have been lulled for a short period would break out afresh, and there would be the same successful resistance to rent, charge which now prevailed against tithes ; and whilst all, this was - happening, what would be the result ? This property would have passed into the hands of the Catholic Clie sg y.—(Cheers ,tom the Opposition.) He was not certain that his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex was prepared to support this propo sition. That Hon. Member was trut . y the guardian of the public purse, and that Hon. Gentleman had been occasionally taunted ; 3ct no man in the, Etouse had earned for himself a more solid fame, or desereed more gratitude for his persevering and untiring exertions in the cause of economy.—( Hear. ) He called on that Hen. Gentleman, however reluctant he might be on an occasion of this kind to take any course that might. be inconvenient to tile .patty...with whom he acted, yet he called on him to come forware and ssy whether lie was pre pared to support a measure which distinctly, if not imme diately, must have the effect of fastening the payment of the tithes of Ireland upon the Cot solidated Fund.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) God forbid that he should ever see the re venues of the Protestant Church in the possession of the Roman Catholic clergy.—(Loud cheers.) . He hoped he would never see the day in which Catholicity would exist in this country unless as a sect.—(Continued cheering.) It must be viewed with eantion. The leading Catholics, both in Tani out of that Hcuse, were advocates fur the voluntary system, yet it was opposed to the very genius and spirit of Catholicism. The spirit of the Catholic Church wes to aim at an Establishment. He, as a true Dissenter end as a true advocate of the voluntary system, was opposed to all establishments whatever. He denied that Cli7istianity re quired any such assistance. The Catholic rePgion relied on an establishment ; it was universal in its pretences, and quarrelled with any other.—( Loud and continued cheering.) The Protestant Dissenter was meek and lowly in his pursuits. —( A laugh.) He had no creed but the . ..;criptures—his faith required no establishment to support it ; it stood independent of such aids. It had not, like the Protestant Church, a Pope at St. James's ; nor, like the Catholic Church, a Pope in Rome, as its earthly master. Tlie grounds on which he re fused his assent to • the Bill be had clearly stated. Though they might not be acceptable to the' majority of the House, yet he thought that they were sufficient to justify him in hold ing the opinions that he had always held on this subject. Ile opposed the measure, because he felt that it would not answer the ends it proposed. But, then, he might be asked, " Would you then leave things as they are ; would you leave Ireland a scene of continued agitation ; would you cloud the prospect that is now brightening for that industrious and patient people ?" Ile said, in answer to all - the appeals of this kind that might be made to him, that he would do no such thing. What he proposed to do was quite the reverse. Let there, whilst 'they declared their determination to respect all living interests--and he was sure that on this the feel ings of the Irish people would go with them—let them bring forward a measure declaring tithes extinct now and for ever. Let them not extinguish it by substituting a rent charge amid putting 30/. per cent, into the pockets of the landlords, but let them really, and substantially, and at once extinguish. tithes for ever. Let them apply that money, not by turning it into the Exchequer as a miserable bribe to the people of England ; but let them, with that money in their hands, say to the people-of Ireland, we will raise your prostrate millions from the dust—we will give bread to your aged, and educa tion to' your young, and we will give improvement to A;,- peals had been repeatedly made to them on this subject. The most splendid orator of modern times, in a speech which he had addressed to the House, had asked what was to become of of the famishing millions of Ireland if they refused to pass the Bill? in that speech he told the House that there were at present in two millions starving with want Plitt struggling in the agoeies• of death. But, he would ask, what interest had these starving millions in the Bill before the House? What would it do to relieve them? Had any Proposition been made for the relief of the destitute condition of these suffering mil lions?—(Cheers from the Opposition.) It had often beets complained that Ireland was not represented in that House; but he contended that there was no part of the empire better or more ably represented. It was most ably represented by the energy of a single individual, and if there were feesy heads, there seemed to be only one mouthpiece.—( A laugh.) He did not fear that the peole of Ireland would net; support the proposition which he now made, if they once; understood its merits. He would not fear to stand in College-green, Dublin; and tell the people of Ireland h'.s - proposition. That was his plan, and which he felt mottla satisfy the people. It would confer benefit on all, and strengthen the Government —(loud cries of " Oh, ols," from the Ministerial side of the House ; and cries of . " Order," from the Opposition)—and strengthen the Government, by gathering round them the uffi=utione of the people. Mr. O'CONNELL—The plan laid down by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman is, above all things practicable.—( A laugh.) The great merit of his scheme is to lay hold of the tithes of Ireland, and apply them to the use of the poor. That scheme of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman has for its great recommendation, that it is certain of being carried into effect. (Laughter and cheers.) He has only f ---h to propose it, and everybody will vote for it—he is sure of it himsele, who has boasted of his candour and tlncerity.—(Much cheer ing and laughter.) It is ,c‘ r ,h c i a e l l i t y n m o a t k h e in s g h b im ut t i h m e a 7 i i n lk e of b e h c u o m u a l d own part, I am deeply i n d e b te d ' n 'P sh ol' ot ra yn y me in saying th a t, w i t h all the fke r d or tyh u c e s kindness hr r d u an n es n6 hme o e h y . a e s r interese I have taken in Ireland, I have never once thought br - a y thing for the benefit of lreland.—(Opposaion cheers.) r espect that cheer—(Renewed cheers from the Oppesit!on)— there is sincerity in it—it is like the Hon. and Leeened Gen tleman, perfectly sincere. —( Loud cheers from tile Ministerial benches.) He did certainly, in his benevolenze, tell us one thing which cannot be denied—he spoke of the merits of my Hon. Friend who is by me ; and I will tell him in return, that one of my Hon. Friend's merits is, that he never sacrificed his principles or his party to his miserable resentments or disap. pointments—(Renewed cheers)—when a great national ques tion is being discussed, not thinking of the merits of that question, or its practical results, but thinking how he should exhibit a little miserable, spiteful resentment,—(Opposition V A I