The Sun. — London, England, 1845-02-25 00:00:00

__........--... h .....—_—........._______. aoeld __ net sancti en the clangeroes doctrine that f ree men cou ld Penot produce as well and as much as slaves.—( Hear, hear.) thanked the Hou•e for the patience with which they had herd him, and concluded by moving the following amend bent'—" That no arrangement of the sugar duties will be sati s f actory and permanent which does not involve an equalisa tion cif duty on fo re i gn and colonial sugar ll ti:Air. EIW ART compli mente d the Hon. Gentleman on the e e t t l he had made, and thought the subject could not have emrust e d to abler hands. Free-trade principles were toery (lay prog,res,in g , and the fact ought to he remembered t hat, whil s t cur foreig n trade was iner••asine, the colonial trade a *, stwien nry. The United States carried on twice as greet a trade with Cuba as this country, in consequence of these re strictions. The trade with South America and China ought t° li r now immense ; but the large duty en tea crippled our commerce with China, whilst those wretched distinctions he tWeen slave and fre•••• grow n sugar, plinost annihilated one great eParttnent of t ra d e with Simla America. The great eman "Pator of s l avery was commerce ; and the merchants of Live r - Pool had done more t o abolish saver}' the coast of souther n ;;Apfrica, by their tradin g . than the cruisers and war vessels who ;: e e mPlosed there. Nothing could more effectually call out 7rirs' ene rgies and develop the resowces of the West ladies than —l ' etit l"n• Since the first sound of rivalry was heard, their resources had undergone greater development and improve ]entth • . an for years previously. A more intricate and corn eated aeheme than that proposed by the Bight Hon. Baronet 1 ~c , a , a lli not well be devised, ard the Government would find it evesary to lee:slate in a bold and comprehensive manner on ! f 5 e biecr. Th e present scheme could not have proceeded t e rn the m aster-mind of the Right Hon. Baronet, he rather tot th°iought it was the proposal of the Right Hon. the Chancellor h e E xchequer. If this duty could not be sacrificed, which beliered it ceuld without a loss to the revenue, he would prefer • an increase of the property-tax to its continuance. The tPre,s.eit arrangement would not suppress- the . slave-trade—would ;7:''' al;•anee the interests of the West Indian colonists—did not :tie the question, but left it in the same :tate of perpetual "frit"inn• Discriminating duty was a had hrinciple, and its effect told injuriousiy in every . possible manner. An ad L ie 4 illty bad proved hlealy iiijurious to commerce : Its need by these reasons, he could have no hesitation in .'"' i ndin Z the motion of the Hon. Member for Manchester. rrta i e r an j 'AMES—A a a \treat Ind . ia proprietor he, last session, beh a l f aPreal to the justice and sympathy of the House on h ss of the distressed interest he represented, and he was .... - n rP 4 t. find flea that that appeal had not been made in vain. 41 4 t ea.r. ) `And he now felt great pleasure in offering his lath er qe.ctful thanks to the Right Hon. Baronet at the head n e „,' 'iesty'a Government, fur the relief that he felt it con 'pirte,-e` with his public duty to offer to the West India pro- to enable Hear.) Whether that relief would be sufficient prs t a y,',e those proprietors to sayscultiate their estates to any 'Res:l4e account, he would not ; but it would at least etilti s ,. heavy losses to those men who kept their estates in to b; 'op in the h , pe of better times.—( Hear.) With regard Woos ! `Th• Friend the Member fur Manchester, he (Ns . r. James) fe st y he gave him credit for the best intentions In . bring ehieerward this motion, and felt convinced . that his only che ap was doing good to the public by trying to get them Ilo o r f,nZar ; Cut it occurred to him ( NI-. James), that the by "!ember had not been very particular as to the means N ow whi e h h e proposed to effect phis object.—( A laugh.) Pt begged H ed to rem i n d the on. Member, that if th e ,to;P°h:i 'ohle on of '' the Gov ernmen t b e carr i e d , i t wou l d g i ve sugar It , n nsumer at about 119, 3d. per cwt. less than they had s ai st ; w • But if the Government took away the present, thatfttlg protection, he could assure the Hon. Member am eatesTnise that the effect would be to increase to a greater . h ad "' than e -, er all the tortures and horrors of the slase - e ' T he Hon.' had • as o , e Membersaid, he would not now enter toohianY discussion of the slave-trade ; but he (Mr. James) p ort : not see how that could be avoided ; it was a most . im he I V feature in the discussion ; and not to allude to it would had I „ e n l earing out the part of Hamlet. The Hon. Member te • r ci aen of the relief of 0 ,300,000/. that the growers would ee ise , it was , he (Mr. James) hoped they would ; but he feared d abe t ,. very unlikely. As to what the Hon. Member . had said th at ',atnentee proprietors, he (Mr. James) agreed with him, estid'est;ates were much better managed where the proprietors Lis so p n o them ; but he could scarcely be called , one, as ii li e - a " was constantly resident on his estate.--(Cries of s s i et. r, hear.") But even so, if they were all resident pro -11 ' 4 ' B , still, without the relief proposed by the Right Hon loas:°°et o Pposite,rthey could not cultivate their estates without !tow The Hon. Member had sooken of the cost of produce ; in Ai: w'or'ld put a case. There were many manufacturers ssisin nehester who paid thousands of pounds per week in li lerot e e mPloym en t to labourers ; but what would the Hon. ch act _slr think of allowing into competition with those nier ; .... (ti s other merchants who paid nothing at all for such labour. ated th t, hear.) Those manufacturers of Manchester pro- A, I lielr good s by using the whip on their horses— their 0 "• AIE3IIIER.—As the West India proprietors did on AI na ves. Praetris jAMES—Yes, he admitted that such had been the trad e 'l e ' , hut if this protectien ere withdrawn, th sl tl:ere would become worse than ev e r; but Ite felt assured . that ' 4o u; asoo much justice and fair dealing to be had in that the e to let hi m imagine for a moment that it would sanction bed wi'reposition of the Hon. Member, which he . had almost i roost be an iniquitous proceeding, but it certainly would Priet °st , onjust one. It was true that the West India pro ,lalle.a tad bad compensation for the emancipation of their ite e L hut they had had none for their lands ; and everybody 140 17ti t " at bind without labour would be of no more use to the irtnehi„r, than would the mills of Manchester be, if the use of . t llti srs r ,Y was prohibited?—( Hear.) Really this was a ques ,l'on b er gs that the injustice of the Hon. Member's .propost i\ A a„, that he could hardly speak of it with patience.— e ' e r i si t' '') The Hon. Member had spoken of the cost of 4 e l , ttthat e t e g n ', ° gar ; now e (Mr. James) begged to say that the t — °I C r s - i.,' .4 eing a hoeshead of sugar in Jamaica w , as double ; e Pri et 'n'a and the Icrazils•• and, therefore, if the N't est India toula h e Were to be put in ' competition with those,lthe result e :t hi t h e ir utter ruin. Those were the reasons that c(n'n- Ittj' p l las r ?,, t saY he should support th e mo ti on o f t h e R ig h t e of th • lite i • . II ' RUO If he felt • isposed to follow the example Z t t 4 ,, bl isit a " ,;_. A lerob — er who had . just sat down lae, to ~s e c o , u m l i_l chlt:'etl,3 wrevance, by complaining of the hardships .n. l _ t . , It 1 " oti )41,1 labour under by the proposed remosat ot t e I3 4ted tv "rt ,ain articles of manufacture which it had been Iss 4'° net nuld ateroos this session by the Right Honourable iNittis4Pos Thisgrievance would be particularly felt by ;riieles—g France to compete g with his constituents in the et, lee e ° ,ll , clay, and iron -stone.—( Hear, hear.) But his to sijent, would ot complain of it ; they would rather re ll's''are,',°t °n the subject, and rely on their own industry and a l tr 4) ' is t ° meet the effect of this competition.—(Hear, be s rs "nt, he wor ld as k, w h y s h ou ld this protection be li s till -°1 so extensive a bra nc h o f th e h ome tra d e, an d „4rease„e gold to those We s t I n di a merc h an t s ?—( H ear. ) (l 14 411 t 4 old not see why they should be made an exception %,beeris c ommercial arrangements.—( f H I ear ) There eLtots wsno t emporizing or delay . in re e d r e e a t n r c:e nn ' to th . e Ea ra st w ln m d a i - a il i en it was proposed to abolish the u s . . eel.'an;,,a—ear)--and, the ' refore, he would say, that if even there h eal er,' t h etidrnent proposed to that House, which, more than 1 , , Warranted the use of strong language, it was that which (Zilet 'll , Pr''Posed by the Hon. Member for Manchester to He t r, i t .n of the Hon Baronet opposite.—( Hear, hear.) . e thth 'l e d i. le s l , e a a n r d d o) , had heard a great deal about differential duties ; ere w•erell't Dy the Right Hon. Baronet's proposition that tP' 4 Ittg " fewer than nineteen different duties proposed s if a t et, or a l ; but he (Mr. Ricardo) would defy the fion.thßae ahillterieesiZ other Member of that House, to state what d theos leade-els„ ere --where the brown-clay sugar began,an then Cos extra' i ' l deds—( Hear, hear.) Ihe . Hon. Member ne of which° from some letters he had received on this . subject, I,lseijetotaellf the writer said it would be impossible for the % a 4 3'4 ' officers here to distinguish between clayed and . cap, Pr isr ' e gar ; and in the other it was stated that if 'lntiled°"sed measure of the British AI in ister were 1,49 very bag of sugar, to the amount o 8 e t he b ''' each year, should be stopped and art , a sn ' s "eri e s PrePared to ap ' ply a test to hear. 4; 1 ' 1 5 1., -° T,inned by sa dii it had been said that great bylithllees'e,-da`ttopte.en made byte ' West India proprietors ; now, la s ap eo 1 fins that much greater sacrifices had been made h tui, co:, , e of England, because the price of sugar in bond 1 4 1 ' th, t . e . :`rY was 345., while on the Cont , inent it was ti re „Pes e 'I showing that the people of England sacrificed he a , sYs , :,..' On this article alone, by the present " protee the ' e r aa e r7 as it had been called.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, be , o wes „sneethere made by the English consumers under tle ss 'ach i; ! , 11 nn the old.—( Hear, h . ear. ) It wou , ) n t o ti er for the Right Hon. Baronet. instead of . comina, l e a te,,ite,a4t,ll Ouse and ;asking them to continue the income :e, illd rio , ee his intention of reducing the duty on sugars. at a , t ; , s ec t , i nvolv e a greater loss than 4,000,000/., but th e Itit,,l stm,e,"'utni,tion the commodity would not only 1 , 1 o ," r 'll „ s ).' the deficient • but enable the Right Hon. etio r ,"%ts t t , - i'rTense altogett 3 e: with the income-tax.—( Hear.) e t , ' ,, v t h e - , s t ne Right Honourable Baronet were to adopt this lit„eni e „ would have considerable grumbling from Hon. pen still s beh ind him, and perhaps angry speeches from h ' t ire pulse: on both sides, but let him . depend . for support s l i ras ts es est }: , tab° alone could maintain him in the position otittcelors Would el(l(Cheers.) He did hope the e West India 'al t i i ' 4 lll,,, ti , rt. tbe neeet-ity of yielding in time. an ll'l t t s , lat sir l e English manufacturers to their own resources, li es ee , 3 " i l: i vr iriYtilt.he. absurd system of protection. Let them h a Sir es of the - time of prosperity what, sooner or later, the a • Gtoe, People would snatch tram their hands. t ece n la st s et d ' GE CI,ERK said the Hon. Gentleman who ile i t ' ri affe ssn wn had inveisheda Rood deal against the pro ae I,, s a lrt ,i e u to our colonies. Now, he should like to know ,tiet.,!e tevnanreeePtion the Hon. Member would receive if oi h nne h l' v l - l o wn to St , * Trent and propose to his I lle t " e. the abol i ' tio ° r kt-u f P t ° l -n ie . protective duties afforded be te'llsestannufacturers Of of country.—( Hear, hear.) de i st anti °I the reductions in cotton and other dutiesmust !ffo rs lhe sas,_nn their own grounds, and taken separately; and 1 1, 11, 1 ;t1 ,.t „ enleret principle they ought to discuss the protection bv llle Nar ~ln branchesade. They ought to look to 'iln ad r it s ,, itoation of the West India colonists, and to see te ir„ t o the 8 .3 mit advisable that protection should be con raat 4 , t 1 t . 't • it ce • 1, 43 14 t f . his gre. ,.. rtainly was necessary to tsatioseeir our ,__lllultsterest, because it not only d e fo o r n m ti ' r s ' A l a e la p r r g o- e C th e ,e n lt, tretures, but a very considerable capital ' tints' Prot . 1 • He would admit to the Hon. Gentleman ti et in , s ,_ e , ti, seh . t o atts • a st e m might lie orried too tar. It would tr.eat,stieh was no t to bolster up manufacturers with protec tog wh ah ees ofoor, n aturally speaking, in keeping with the te Nt e ll th th e country. But it became a very different t l to rite : ti o o f the eZestablishedduties to protect the domestic in- Olhe cops 4 be y'shoei s t It by no means followed either, that d ,d, th e given to every article in the same degree, 'ate Y e rir s'ref•lre orerfectly understand that some interests the etie o e little I W previouse no advantage from an excessive il ks• e st l e • to ila e l ent 'lit col . the passing of the Emancipation Ac , t h e ntl y N at . t cola were enabled to produce not only th. We lte e l fort e d j s uPPly this country, but they not unfre qatholl, h, pro r r , of to other countries. . In 1839, le r °.ttre rs !and u s eof sugar fell off two millionseight bun th,ia e oi '.arie , "", owing to the emancipation of the native 1 "Pt nine, ntil the year 1842, the produce of the West tnii ant,. ' Was r e d - • ttl k a isl an d of , anted to its minimum. lie a as ri th e (Is this gar which would be sent over from the West : p ito,. ssllpplyjear would show a very considerable increase tiea et alee tt h er ' s former years. He would ask the House alsetl ,%PeritatentsioPposite whether, after having commenced or h that) exp ees n • 83 8, the success of whirls had since ex ahells ,4 I. ) rot ke Vata)n t it was advisable or politic now to Ih e i rb. h a pi es wer Mn t at a moment when the sugar planters 41 ti l l '4 ' aW reSUltede," the eve of overcoming those difficulties 4 ' a ar " Illne 'lre that jrore the Emancipation Act ?—( Cheers. ) th a , 5, h r... se e , rtr n ere were a certain number of gentlemen es ' sr otl 'rn th e enle advocates of free trade ; but he was roe, ti.selearef them t e ,, n it of a similar motion proposed in 1843, iN w 'nz 0 ere not prepared to go the extreme length ttor di d ht ./Ldi oat t h e differential duties offered to satel,erfeotl,irliasrolsnlia,nsds should be at once abolished. Ikeo ried b 'Tanehe the appearance of the House, the Hon. ti l . atv the Y th e A.Nobstleerhad reaso n to hope that he . would be e, (l e oth er 1 , Lord the Member for the City of Lon b i lea n iter f • 'ernbers that . 1 1t hto th or m a , , usually voted with him. Th . e i llh ah e (si r e con sus „ nenester had stated that it made no dit sat. 't ante GeorgeZr whether the duty Wll3 153. or 30s. ; th,, nlvi,. 'I M an lerk), would be lad to know if the her e was io n, foe . cheater washer Stoke g upon-Trent were of the t he v 111e°d4ereit first time that he had heard that th at V est l r 'heet e nee be tween 15s and 30s. The Hon Mem rt n o t, 'ldle s r hart wished to .repre . se . nt that the evil of ahtaais, Acesnewas, that the 4 hti Il l' e n b --4 `' Were heldy were giving lo . w wages, and out to the emancipatednegro to h e '''7 ') P ho te sS t^l a. ' ti n v at n ive soil. Another evil was, that they had , s l i a ret s , r a t a. loss is u tl e d w er w : t n , le , of cultivation. Now he (Sir G. . In r ee . to „„, • on that the reverse was the case, and ` d a lh ouerstand front what uaer the Hon. ' Itisteas Mformation. At present themeoreceived u of as formerly 6s. or 7s. per week; and ' necessary and permanent source of that distress which almost every page of the West Indies recorded, was to be found in the institution of slavery. Yet it was to the abolition of this very institution that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Clerk) traced this distress.--( Hear, hear. ) He hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would consult the Noble Lord to-morrow on the subject, in order to ascertain whether or not he had changed his views.—( Hear, hear.) Lord Belmore, Governor •General of Jamaica, in a parting address to the House of Assembly, said the distress which existed resulted from that policy by which slavery was established, and the island would never develop the abundance of its resources till slavery was abolished. The Right Hon. Gentleman at the Head of the Government had said in his (Mr. Villier's) hearing that the experiment of the abolition of slavery had answered in a more striking manner than any great experiment ever made. They knew that some islands had flourished since the abolition of slavery—that is to say, they had not said that they did not.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) In Barbadoes it was notorious that the people wished for low wages ; that they were well off ; and that the island was fieurishing. His Honourable Friend had shown that the proprietors were suffering from their own neglect ; and now that they feared the abolition of protection, they began to tax their wits to see whether they had not wasted their energies and the resources of the country, by resisting improvement and neglecting vigilance in the management of their estates. The Governor-General reproached them with neglecting improvement in past times ; and they were all now considering what could be done to remove that reproach. If he were not mistaken, the Hon. Member for Cumberland had entrusted to a member of his family the superintendence of his own estate, whom he had never thought of sending out until lately. He believed he would confirm the statement that every species of fraud was practised by the dis honest agents of absurd proprietors. Mr. JAMES said he did not know that.—(hear, hear. ) Mr. VILLIERS—WouId his Hon. Friend the Member for Cumberland say he had discovered that his relative might as well have stopped here ? Mr. JAMES—No, no. Mr. VILLIERS had asked three gentlemen connected with the West Indies whether it was the fact that they had been cheated in that island. They all said that it was, and gave in stances to prove it.—( Hear, hear.) Why, it was no uncom mon thing for the agents to represent to the absent proprietors that their estates were in such a critical position that unless they sent out money to enable them to cultivate them, it would be better that they should be abandoned ; and there had been in stances in which, after representations of this kind, the estates had been sold, and the agents, or their relatives, h a d b ecome the purchasers. He had - been told by a gentleman last year that there was every species of waste, and that there was no spot in the globe where sugar was cultivated in so barbarous a manner; and that lie had such a confidence in the island being im provable, that instead of abandoning his own West India estate he had sent out the brother of the head of a great mercantile firm in the City to superintend and cultivate it. Now, he asked them to consent to his Hon. Friend's proposition, in order to effect a permanent and satisfactory settlement of this question. They heard in that House an abundance of profes sions of solicitude for the poor ; a vast deal was said as to the dreadful condition in which they were placed. —( Hear, hear.) They saw a number of charities advertised in the newspapers for relieving the extreme necessities of particular classes. Now here :was a distinct practical pro position, by adopting which they might diminish the cost of the article of sugar to the consumers, and extend great advan tages to the industrious classes by the extension of trade. They had now an opportunity of doing a great practical charity.— ( Hear, hear.) He believed the next week a large portion of the aristocracy were goin g to dance i n th e ca use of th e needlewomen.—(Laughter.) There was to be a grand ball for the relief of that class of society.—( Hear, hear. ) Now what was the extra cost paid by such persons, as well as others, on account of this sugar monopoly ? Why every week this metropolis alone paid 40,0001. more for sugar than they otherwise would do ; for the whole country the extra amount was not less than 50,0001. By adopting the proposition be fore the House, they would, besides diminishing the price of sugar, increase trade and commerce, and thus benefit the poor, for whose welfare they professed to be anxious. He did think, then, that they were justified in bringin g this matter before the House, and th a t the country would expect on that oc casion to get something more than that conventional indifference which was generally exhibited when a motion whirls was really important to the pub lic interests, was brought under their consideration. They had heard from the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Sir R. Peel) that the army was three times larger than it need be, were it not required fur the protection of the colonies. Well, then, it appeared that these colonies did not pay for their own govern ment. Every one must be aware what a cruel service was that of the West Indies. Why, the Secretary at War had actually refused, on one occasion, to make a return of the mortality of the regiments employed there, alleging that the details, if published, would so horrify and shock the English community that it would be dangerous to the public service. It might be that these islands were of such importance as to justify the out lay on their account ; but let it be understood that it was for the purpose of protecting these islands that the people were called upon to make a sacrifice of 32,000,0001., besides a million more for the army. He would ask whether that presented the colonial dependencies o f thi s country i n a very favourabl e li g ht; and whether, when suc h was t h e case, it was not necessary to give some very powerful reason why the people should be mulcted, he might almost say cheated, in order that money might be poured into the pockets of the colonial proprietors ?—(Cheers.) Mr. W. MILES said it was an admitted fact that the West India colonies had for several years been suffering great distress. A fair remuneration was all the West India proprietors asked for, and all they expected to have. The Hon. Member for Manchester seemed to think that it was very easy to make a fortune out of an estate in the West Indies. That was not the fact, which the Hon. Member might discover if he would take an estate there. He (Mr. Miles) regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet did not intend to propose the continuance of the duties for a longer period than to July 1846, and he trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman would re-consider this point. With respect to the motion before the House, he would say, that seeing the large expense to which this country was put in sup porting a force for the suppression of the slave trade, he thought it would be most unwise and impolitic to admit slave-grown sugar at an equal amount of duty as that produced by our own colonies, or that manufactured by free labour in s foreign coun try. Ile had always supported the principle of protection, and he thought the West Indies ought to be treated as an integral part of the empire, and protection ought to be given to them ; and if protection were given to them, he did not see hew it could well be less than that proposed by her Majesty's Govern ment. If the experiment of Coollie labour succeeded, the West India proprietors would not only have a reduction in the price of labour, but also have a sufficient supply. If this were so, then he did not see why the West Indies should not be able to send as great a supply of sugar, and at as cheap a rate, as any foreign country employing slave labour, for he believed that a free labourer would accom plish more than a slave, even though that s l ave were k ept un d er the lash of the slave-driver. All the West India proprietors required was a fair day's work for a fair day's wages. He trusted that her Majesty's Government would not depart from that line of policy upon which they had hitherto acted. Lord HOWICK next addressed the House. He said he hoped that the House and the eountry would observe that the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down—a great West India proprietor—and the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke before him, being a member of the Government, had both explicitly and distinctly admitted the fact which had been alleged on that (the Opposition) side of the House, that the existing system of protective duties must be regarded as a tax on the people of this country to the extent of 2,300,0001. (Cries of " No, no.") This remarkable fact had been distinctly admitted.—( Cries of " No, no.") Hon. Gentlemen said no, but he appealed to those who had heard the speeches to confirm what he had said. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-president of the Board of Trade commenced his speech with an argument which had become so hacknied on the Treasury Bench that it was hardly worth while to reply to it, viz. that this was merely ass abstract resolution. No matter what were the terms of the resolution. lie thought no man who had listened to the debate could mistake the real intention of the motion before the House. The object of it, as he understood, was to reduce, and to reduce at once, the duty on foreign sugar to the same rate as the duty on colonial sugar. He confessed that he would have preferred the question being submitted in a Committee of Ways and Means. But after all, the terms in which the question was brought before them was of little consequence. He, f or one , di st i nct l y suppor t e d thi s motion as a motion for e qua li s i ng the rates of duty on f ore i gn and colonial sugar. It h a d b een urged on hi s s id e o f th e House, and not one argument had been brought against it, that the effect of the proposed measure of her Majesty's Go vernment was to raise the price of all colonial sugar 10s. at least beyond that which it would pay when sold to the con sumer. If that were not the object, he was at a loss to under stand on what ground they proposed a differential duty. From what he could gather from the speeches of Hon. Gentlemen op posite, it was admitted that sugar could be produced in foreign countries SOs. cheaper thee it could be produced in the British colonies ; and, therefore, they in.posed a duty of 103. on every cwt. of foreign suga r; so th a t on the 230,000 tons of colonial sugar, 101. per t on was imposed on the price to the consumer. And when he heard Gentlemen call that a system of protection t o B r itish industry, he was at a loss to understand it. He h a d b een informed, a few days ago, and he believed already so me c h an ge had taken place in the market in co ns equence of th e an nouncement of the measures of her Majesty's Governm en t. He had been told, a few day s ago, that Brazilian sugar was sold at 18s. 6d., while colonial sugar, of a precisely similar quality, cost 26 5. Now it was quite obviou s that 26 tons of foreign sugar at 18 s. 6d. a cwt., and 181 tons at 26n a cwt. r , hat was to each co s t precisely the same a m oun t, viz., 4811. That say, that the produce of British labour of the value of 4811., would exchange for sugar in bond for 26 tons of Bra zilian sugar, and only 18/ 1 tons of colonial sugar. Now it must be recollected that these two sugars were precisely of the same quality; and if the duty were the same, the price to the consumer would be the same. The British manufacturer, therefore, if fiscal regulations did not stand in the way, might in exchange for his goods to the amount of 4815., get, not 181 tons, but 26 tons of sugar. And yet this simple matter of ex change the manufacturer was not allowed to ente r i n t o . Fi sca l regulations stepped in the way of British labou r , and com pelled N ow h e (Lord Howick ) wo u ld as k H on. Gen tlemen who had discussed the Factory Bill, obtain 26 him tons.to take only 18i tons of sugar w h en he might and had ad voca t e d the right of property a man had in his own labour, w h e th er they o were consistent in supporting the proposition of the Govern ment ? Why did they not allow the labourer to get as much in return for his labour? The evils of the present system were felt by all classes of the labouring population. The Right Hon. Baronet had told them last year that the Brazilians were so unreasonable as not to admit our goods on favourable terms, un less we took their goods in return. He had told them that ' if we would consent to admit their sugar on the same terms as colonial sugar, they would offer no obstacles to the admission of our manufactures. It was, therefore, clear that the abo lition of the distinction in the duties on sugar, would extend our commerce, and stimulate the industry of our manufacturers. he drew tight er t h e protection it al- If the Right Hon. Gentleman got rid of the mo no p o l y o f sugar, lie would do more for British agriculture, and o th er b ranc h es o f r ß e r a i , t v ish po i s n s d e t: s s e t d ry . , tshhuaenifwould be the a d vantages of simplifying the measure; and this advantage need not be purchased by any sacrifice of revenue. By consenting to accept those advan tages, they would guard the revenue from that heavy loss which the Right lion. Gentleman proposed to incur._( Hear, hear. ) The Right Hon. Gentleman calculated the direct loss to the revenue by the measure he submitted to the House at no less a sum than 1,300,000/. He (Lord ) believed the Right Hon. Baronet greatly under-estimated the loss. lie believed the Right lion. Gentleman's estimate of the probable receipts for the ensuing year would not be verified; but assuming it to be correct, if they admitted foreign sugar at the same rate as colonial sugar, this heavy loss would be covered, if net immediately, at least i n a short time. They would thus at the same tim e con f er great benefit on the consumer , and not caus e any l oss to t h e revenue by the change•—(Hear, he ar .) But he knew they were told that this measure would be unjust to their colonies. Now ho would be glad to be informed in what respect it would be unjust. They had already paid no inconsiderable amount on account of the colonies. They paid the whole expense of the civil and military cost of the colonies in the first instance, alre a d y , w h y s h ou ld they ( Hear, h ear. ) N ow when they colonies and in the next they made a large grant f or th e purpose o f education and for the magistracy , and the bi s h o p s were pa id out of pa be called on to pay a further sum in the way o f protect i on ? When it was said that justice to the colonies requ i re d t hi s protec tion, he should like that those who talked thus would go a little further, and explain for what particular class justice required that this burden should be imposed on the people the complaint had rather been, that too wages hail been given on account of the great difficulty of obtaining labour. It there were any West India gentlemen in the House, is ho had the misfortune top esess large estates in the West Indies, they must have been also surprised to have heard the same Hon. Gentleman declare that they ought to be in a more flourishing posit on now than they were in former times. Whatevcr the Hon. Member might think, there was no doubt hut that of late this bilk drawn upon West India proprietors had greatly exeeeded in ameuut the produce of their estates. But he believed in the present year, from the information he had received, that the sngrr would be s much more superior to what it had been in former years, that the planter was likely to derive a profit. The Hon. Member for Stoke-upon-Trent said the condition of the Weal India proprietors was becoming worse and worse every day ; and the best thing they could do, therefore, was to abandon their pro tection altogether. Now, be should like to ask the Hon, Member for Manchester, and the lion. Member for Stoke upen-"! rent, what could be the result if such a course were adopted? Why Cuba would have a monopoly in the British cat ket ; and the British itelonies, widish formed an extensive market for the manufacturers of this country, would be ruined. But this was riot all ; they would hold out an encouragement to slavery, and all the efforts which had been made for the last six years to destroy this abominable traffic would be rendered utterly useless. Now, he would ask Hon. Members whether it was wise or politic, for the sake of get ting sugar a little cheaper, they would destroy so important an i n t eres t as our N% est India colonies? Unless they continued a protection to the West India colo nies, they would throw a monopoly of the supply of sugar into the hands of the growers of Cuba and Brazil. It was too bad to turn round on the Wert Indies, and say that these colo nies had always been a drag upon this country, which, for their. mon-po:y, wis obliged to pay two or three millions a-year out of the peekets of the artisans and labouring population unneeos • sarily. It would be infinitely better to say, as the lion. Mem ber for Bath had maintained, that it would be to the advantage of this country if the as hole of the West India islands were blotted from the map of the world. Ile was certain that was not the opinion of that House with regard to col on i a l posses sions.—( Hear, hear. ) The Hon. Gentleman talked about the export trade of this country. He ( Sir G. Clerk) wished the Right Hon. Member would look at the returns annually laid before them, and see how large a proportion of the fifty-six or , fifty-eight millions of their exports went annually to their co lonial possessions—( Hear, hear)—including the East Indies, the West Indies, and their North American colonies— ( Hear, hear.) He thought the Honourable Member would find that one-fifth of their whole exports were , taken by the colonies.—( Hoar, hear.) And let them recollect that this was a trade secured to them—a trade that was not liable to any interruptions by misunderstandings with foreign nations, from jealousies on their part, exhibited in the exactions of foreign tariffs ;—( Hear, hear )—it was a trade carried on by and with the subjects of this country, and they must recollect. that it was by the possession of that colonial empire that they were alone enabled to secure that commercial marine which was the foundation of their magnificent navy, and which enabled them to keep that navy in such a state of efficiency as to maintain their maritime supremacy. No nation that had not the advantage of holding distant possessions would ever be able to keep up a naval marine on the scale and extent which made our navy so efficient a defence of the empire. Instead of the West India colonies being such a drag and incumbranco on this country as to induce them to wish to see them blotted from the map of the world, he contended that the loss of them would be an injury to this country, not confined to the loss of trade with those islands, to the amount of two or three millions an nually, bat that loss would strike a blow against their maritime power anti supremacy from which the nation could never recover. Now, the Hon. Member for Manchester had stated that their imports from the West Indies hail fallen off, and that their exports to the \Vest Indies had not increased. Bat the Hon. Member had taken a year of great colonial prosperity, and compared it with a year of remarkable depression. They had legislated till the consequences of that legislation had been that the produce of the West India Islands had fallen off from 200,000 tons of sugar an nually to 100,000 tons; and it could not be but the exports of this country to those colonies must have fallen off also. On the principles the Hon. Gentlemen opposite themselves held, the colonies could only give for the exports of this country the articles they themselves produced; and if the pro duce of the West Indies had diminished one half, it was only remarkable that the exports of our manufactured goods consumed there had not fallen off in a much larger pro portion.--( Hear, hear.) But he (Sir G. Clerk) trusted that, in proportion as the West Indies improved in condition, and were bettrr supplied with labour, or the emancipated negroes themselves applied more diligently and regularly to the cultiva tion of the estates, they should see a great increase in the pro duce of those islands, and as a consequence, an improvement in the export of manufactures from this country. The same causes had operated against tins introduction of machinery into the colonies to the same extent that would have taken place under other circumstances. The Hon. Gentleman opposite had said that the West Indian proprietors had no inclination to improve the process of sugar making, so as to reduce the ex pense of the manufacture ; he said that no attempt had been made to introduce machinery, and he would have induced them to believe that the steam-engine had never been heard of ; but he (Sir G. Clerk) rather thought that as long as thirty years ago machinery was extensively used in the Wert Indies— ( Hear, hear)—and he had visited a very extensive manufac tory on the other side of Westminster-bridge, in which there was not only one, but a whole establishment full of steam engines prepared for the West Indian market—( Hear, hear). There was a total want of capital in the islands—( Hear, hear) —and that fact must have a considerable influence on their con dition. Yet be believed, though the Hon. Member fur Dum fries had spoken of their being in a state of lethargy—caused by monopoly and a want of competition—that many of the West India proprietors, notwithstanding their estates did not pay their outgoings, were, oust of their capi tal, sending out every improvement that could be made, in, he might almost call it, the forlorn hope that, in time, those improvements might lead to a revival of prosperity. lie wished the Hon. Member for Manchester, who seemed so familiar with Mr. Porter's book, would look at what that gentleman stated with respect to the adoption of improvements, and he would find that there was hardly any branch of the manufacture for which patents were taken out in this country, that were not adopted by persons anxious to im prove their estates. They might not have that overflow of capital which, it seemed, oppressed Manchester and Liverpool so much that it had gone over to the Want Indies, and, as the Hon. Member had stated, had constructed a line of railway between Spanish Town and Kingston ; but that line only extended a distance of ten or twelve miles, so that the outlay of money had not been so considerable. The colonists had not invested money in that line, but per haps they thought their capital might be better employed in enlarging and extending the cultivation of their sugar, and the produce of the cane. The Hon. Member for Cumberland, the Hon. Member for Dumfries, and the Hon. Member for Stoke-upon-Trent, had gone into a discussion of the plan which it was the intention of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to submit, as soon as the House should agree to the motion for going into a Committee of Supply. But, in the first place, he thought it extremely unfair to attempt to discuss detached portions of that plan, until his Right Hon. Friend should have had the opportunity of stating it fully, and showing the bearing and dependence of one part of that plan upon the other. He would not endeavour to anticipate any of those details, by answering any of the argu ments of the Hon. Members for Stoke-upon-Trent and Dumfries ; nor would it he fair to go into the discussion) as the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London had given notice for Wed nesday) during that Noble Lord's absence, and the absence of many of the Hon. Members by whom the Noble Lord was supported. Mr. HAWES (pointing to the vacant places in the vicinity of the Treasury bench)—They are absent too.—( Hear.) Mr. G. CLERK had no doubt the absent gentlemen were very ably represented by the Hon. Member for Lambeth— ( Hear, hear, and a laugh)—but he thought he would agree with him that, in the absence of the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, it would be very improper to anticipate any part of the discussion on the two important points with respect to which the Noble Lord had put a notice on the books for Wednesday. Under the circumstances, therefore, he had rio right whatever to go into any answer to the statements of the Hon. Gentle men opposite on the present occasion, as they related to the details of his Right Hon. Friend's plan, more especially the speech of the Hon. Member for Stoke-upon-Trent. whose ob servations went minutely into those details, which could be discussed with advantage only when regularly before the House. He would not trespass any further on the patience of the House. He had endeavoured to show that it had been the policy which this country had ever acted on, and which, he trusted, it would always continue to act on, to give a fair amount of protection to the domestic industry of the nation.— ( Hear.) However Hon. Gentlemen opposite might cry out against protection and the principles on which it was based, however they might select some extreme case, and ask them if they would attempt the cultivation, for instance, of the tea plant, or some other production to which their soil and climate were not adapted, by giving the growers of it the protection of high duties on the foreign import of it ; however they might take such an extreme case, they must look at each by itself, and then he thought that in the policy of his Right Hon. Friend the head of her Majesty's Government, though he was prepared to maintain the protective principle, he had carefully looked into the amount of duty charged on every article of general use, with the view of affording every relaxa tion of those duties which would give the articles at the lowest and cheapest price to the consumers, without injury to the trade of the country. He was perfectly convinced that the sudden withdrawal of the fair amount of protection would do as much injury as the continuance of the working of any of the old and exploded systems of monopoly which existed a century ago, for the purpose of bolstering up any branch of manufacture. He could only say, in conclusion, that he believed, when the plan of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was produced, he would submit a proposition that would have the effect of securing to the people of this country sugar, at a much cheaper rate than they had ever been able to purchase it at, for the last twenty or thirty years, and that this would be done without the free-trade and the impediments to commerce by such a test, the Right Hon. B arone t m i g ht h ave en li g h tene d t h em from his recent visit to his own constituents, when he submitted to them his views on the subject of that test, as to how far the electors of the country were disposed to approve of his own opinions.— ( Hear, hear. ) The Right Hon. Baronet would see and re cognise his allusion to his late reception at Stamfor,l.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The weather was at present, about the same as then, but he did not believe that if he went down there now, he would meet the same treatment as his Honourable Friend the Member for Manchester, would do from his constituents, after his unqualified avowal of the doctrines of free trade. He did not know if the Right Hon. Baronet had much improved his chance in the district he represented, by submitting to the House the speech he had just delivered. With all due deference to the Right lion. Gentle man, and with great respect to him personally, he ventured to say that he had not much raised himself in the opinion of the House by that address. He did not mean to say that it was not a fair average speech for a functionary of the Go vernment.--( Hear, and laughter. ) It seemed just that sort of speech and argument that might be drawn out of the pigeon -holes of the Board of Trade, aster having been put by some twenty-five years back. —( Laughter.) It seemed that mass of common-place—that tissue of vague generalities—that sort of no answer to the question before the House— that kind of matter that was usually brought before them to occupy a certain space of time.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) For he did think that, considering the practical and specific question which his Hen. Friend the Member for Manchester had brought before the House, there never was an Hon. Gentleman, of mature years, and holding the position the Right lion. Gentleman held, who had ever occupied so much of the time of the House in speaking, without any reference to the point in question—who continued so to make himself the giants with which he fought—alluding to things that had never fallen from his lion. Friend, and never answer ing the questions that must be answered before the discussion ,could cease, which his Hon. Friend had brought forward. The Right Hon. Gentleman urged an objection to this sort of ab stract question; yet the question was put before them to be sifted practically, that they might be pressed to tell the House what were the claims of the West India proprietors to this protection—what claim they had to this enormous sacrifice exacted from the people of England ? He would ask, what were those claims? They wanted to know what were those claims—what had they sacrificed—what did they owe them—what was the large amount of their loss ? They were told of the great sacrifices they had been obliged to make—( Hear, hear)—let them bring in the account—let them see it—let them know what it was they were paying fur? The Bight lion. Gentle man said he should proceed to Shaw what parlieular claims these gentlemen had ; but he (Mr. Villiers) would ask any body who had heard the Right Hon. Gentleman—anybody who had listened to him —and they had paid him the most re spectful attention—whether they were in possession from him of the shadow of an idea as to what were the claims, general or particular, in respect of which the gentlemen who were proprietors of landed estates in the West Indies, took 2,300,000/. annually from the people of this country.—( Hear, hear.) Now, he would put it to the House, whether they could remember—whether they could tax their memories—so as to try and comprehend what the Right Honourable Gentleman said, in order to explain why this sacrifice had been made, and what these claims wera Hear, hear,) The Right lion. Gentleman said, he did not know what Hon. Gentlemen opposite proposed to do, why, in adopting this resolution, they proposed to bind that House to a principle which, if applied, would do justice to the people of this country, and by which, as long as it was withheld, justice was withheld—( Hear)—and they also wanted to know why it was withheld? The Right Hon. Gentleman said it had been the policy of this country to protect the colonial interest, that protection was part of the great scheme of policy always adopted by this country. Why that was the langulge which the Right Hon. Gentleman's friends in the opposite corner of the House adlressed to the Right Honourable Baronet at the head of the Government. The Right Honourable Gentleman, said they, by this reso lution proposed to disturb the s c h eme o f po li cy a l ways adopted by this country. Why this was exactly what the Government were doing themselves. They were disturb ing it every day, they scarcely ever got up to make a speech that they did not utter some sentiment at variance with that great scheme of policy. What was it they heard so much of from the agricultural interest now ? What was it they heard so much of last year from the West Indian body ? Why, that they were depriving them of protection. The Right Hon. Gentleman himself disturbed that protective principle, and then turned round on them, and thinks it an answer to the question asked by his Hon. Friend to say that it was part of a great scheme of policy to protect certain interests, and that they could not be disturbed without injury to the country ! Now would it not almost have been moredecent to have said nothing a all ? Would it not have been better to have let it be under. stood that the Government meant well, that it wished to carry out its principle, but that it did not like to commit itself now ? Did it not tend to render ridiculous every thing they proposed sshen they uttered such doctrines? But the Right Hon. Gen- tleman did say something in the course of his speech which he really thought was somewhat to the point. He said he wished the Honoursble Members for Cumberland and Weymouth were present, because they knew some thing of the details of the subj9ct. He was himself utterly in ignorance, and knew nothing of the matter, but they, though opposed to him in politics, were connected with the %Vest Indies, and they would perhaps be so good as to help him out. The Right Honourable Gentleman said ho knew nothing about it, he had announced his own ignorance—( Hear)—and in a confidence that ignorance could alone justify, had asserted that he believed those claims in protection were well founded, and that this was the principle of the measure of which he professed entire igno rance. Why, this was exactly what his Hon. Friend the Mem ber for Manchester complained of. He could gee nothing that justified the amount of the sacrifice called for from the people —that was precisely the matter la dispute. He should like to have some statistic information; he should like to know in what state these properties were—whether their co lonial dependencies were all in this state, and what there was in this mystical sum of lOs. 6d. that had hitherto met all the circumstances of the case? Here were 2,300.000/. taken out of the pockets of the people of England, and no information given as to the purpose for which it was done. Was that the moment, looking at the state of this country, when such a sacrifice ought to be made? They were told that the income-tax could net be given up. Now here was an available surplus, by which, if it were not for the sugar interest, the people might be relieved from a portion at least of the inemne-tax.—( Hear, hear.) If the sugar duties were adjusted so as to produce two or three millions more, either the income-tax or other taxes might be reduced. The duty on tea be reduced, so as to lead to its being admitted in much greater abundance ; and thus would our connexion he rendered closer with that country from which tea was sent to our own.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman told them that if he had more surplus, he would apply it in the tame manner as he proposed to apply the existing sur plus.—( Hear, hear.) It appeared that the reason why he could not reduce more taxes was the protection given to the West India proprietors. His Hon. Friend the Member for Weymouth had put in a word for the East India proprietors. He said protection was claimed for the East Indians as well as West Indians. Why, it was part of their case that that absur dity existed.—( Hear, hear.) Particular grounds were stated for imposing this penalty on the people of England in the case of the West Indies, which did not in the least apply to the East Indies.—( Hear, hear.) The West Indians told them that the only ground on which they claimed protection was that labour was not cheap. "We want more labour," they said, " and then we should be able to compete with any:foreign State." What were the wages in the East Indies? Two pence a day at the most.—( Hear, hear.) Well, now, what posible ground was there for protecting the East Indians ? They had no vested interests. In their case the Legislature created the very interests which claimed to be protected ; the interest was created and the protection was then claimed. Hit Hon. Friend the Member for Cumberland was some- what ingenious in his mode of arguing ; for seeing that this question would not bear arguing in that light, he changed the issue as soon as possible.—( Laughter.) He got upon slavery. Now, he (Mr. Villiers) begged to say, that his lion. Friend's motion did not raise that question.— ( Ironical cheers from the Ministerial benches.) His Hon. Friend asked him why there shouid be a duty of 10s. less on East and West India sugar, as compared with that of Java and Manilla? He also wanted to knuw why this was done. His Hon. Friend, the Member for Cumberland, said, " Think of the horrors of slavery ; it is for them that my heart beats. I care not for my own estate, it is the cause of humanity which urges me to oppose you."— ( Laughter.) Now he wanted to know how his lion. Friend's benevolent feelings would be affected by the introduction of Java and Manilla sugar ? ( Laughter. ) Why should they apply distinctive duties to free labour sugar, the produce of different parts of the world. If they were sincere in stating the purpose for which they maintained a distinction, they ought to hasten to give every encouragement to the admission of all sugar produced by free labour.—( Hear, hear.) They said they wanted to present to the would an ex ample which would prove that free-labour sugar was better and more economically produced than slave-labour sugar, and that they were desirous of encouroging sugar produced by free labour, because that would lead to the abolition of the slave trade. Now that experiment had already been made as regarded the markets of Europe generally ; there Java sugar always did compete with the sugar of Cuba and Brazil. Why, when they were about to make some change in their arrangementA, why did they not open their markets to all sugar which was pro duced by free labour ?—( Hear, hear.) It vt as quite clear that slavery had nothing to do with the matter.—( Hear, hear.) He had a perfect right to say this, so long as they made a distinction between one free-labour sugar and another ; and it would be • more creditable to them, he thought, if they avovred their real object to be that of giving pi=otection to the West Indian interest. Indeed, the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir G. Clerk) confessed that the ;cal object was that of favoUring the \Vest India proprietors.—( Hear, hear.) Well, then, they slightest iujustice to the producer of sugar. either in their West Indian Colonies, or East Indian possessions. He be lieved on the other hand, that the increased consumption in this country, which would be the necessary consequence of this reduction in price, would give a fresh stimulus and energy to the West Indian proprietors and that they might calculate on an increased production in the colonies, which he hoped would be brought back to the state they were In ten or twelve years ago, and that they would again be able to supply the whole of the sugar consumed by the people of this country, to the amount of 500,000 cwts. Under these circumstances they might see the time when the islands would regain their ancient prosperity, and to the satisfaction of the Hon. Member for Manchester, they might see the exports of this country increase from 2,000,000/. to upwards of 4,000,0001., at the same time that a great relief would be given to the consumer of sugar in this country by placing it withia the reach of the poorest labourer in the country, at a price infinitely below that at which he had ever been able to purchase it during the last twenty or thirty years. The supply that would be secured of this article, now become almost a prime necessary of life, would, he hoped, be ample enough to equal the most sanguine expectations of the Honourable Member for Manchester. He looked upon this as the permanent effect of the measures her Majesty's Government were bringing for ward. Now, let them look at the practical result of the reso lution of the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—(Mr. M. Gibson here made some observation across the table.) What would were bound to show what advantage this protection had ever given to them. If they possessed some confused notion that their colonial empire could be made to flourish by an Act of Parliament, let them show that these people were suffering then for the first time.--( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Ba ronet defended the Government measure on the distinct and ole ground that the West India planters were now suffering from the abolition of slavery. There was, he contended, no ground, no pretence for making that assertion ; and he would tell the Right Hon. Baronet that, whether slavery existed or not, there had always been suffering when the proprietors were protected. That was the argument used by those who were the real friends of the slaves in the West India islands. He re- furred to swell authorities as Cropper, Macaulay, and Stephen, who had asserted that the ruin of these islands had been slavery and monopoly.—( Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet did not make statements so loosely. He would remind him that, "'. . . ;welve years ago, a Member of that Cabinet to which he be- longed had (leCiared, in that. House, that the real cause of dis- tress in those islands was the existence of slavery. It was very important that that House, and, through it, the country, should be made aware that they were not asking for anything that was unjust, or likely to be injurious to the West Indian interests, and, above all, was it desirable that they should be disabused of the monstrous fallacy that it was owing to the abolition of slavery that such depression existed. Ho found that during the existence of the slave trade' and slavery, a Committee was ap pointed by the House of Assembly in Jamaica, to make inqui i ies as to the general state of distress in that island ; and he ventured to say that the report made on t hat occasion showed that island to be even in a worse condition than it was at present. He quoted from a work of Mr. B. Edwards, which was strongly in favour of the proprietors themselves. The period referred to was 1792. Speaking of the result of the inquiry, it was stated by this writer, that 177 estates had been sold for debt, and fifty five thrown out of cultivation, and further that ninety-two estates remained in the hands of the creditors. Now he had not heard any such statement as that made that evening. lie was not aware that the distress in the island of Jamaica had arrived at such a pitch. That was the state, however, of the island in 1792, under slavery and the slave trade. In 1807 there was a Committee of that House to inquire into the un paralleled distress of the West India proprietors. They were then still receiving slaves from Africa, slavery still existed. The cause assigned for the depression at that time was the con tinuance of the war; it was stated that that had produced an unequal competition in foreign markets. Then there was also a Committee of Inquiry, and great discussion also took place, in 1824, before the abolition of slavery. In 1 - 32 there was another inquiry as to the great distress which prevailed, and that Committee spoke of the proprietors having alleged all sorts of inconsistent reasons for it, and said they must conclude that there was some other reasons than those assigned. The Earl of Ripon, who was Colonial Minister at the time, said that without de nying the concurrence of many causes, it was obvious that the be the practical result of that motion ? It would be to rouse the feeling of the public of this country against the West India proprietors on this question, and to expose them to a popular odium on account of having upheld a system of slavery which ceased to exist many years ago. He thought this rather unfair; those proprietors had had to submit to changes which had exposed them to severe losses, in many cases to an extent of which the gentlemen who heard him could not be aware. In every quest:on brought forward connected with this sub ject, they were held up to public odium, and they were now told they were about to have their whole property . con fiscated ! Under these circumst ances , h e h o p e d the 'House would not support the motion of the Hon. Member for Alan- Chester, but would agree with the original resolution for going into a Committee of Ways and Means. I .llr. C. P. VILLIERS said he was rather amused at the test the Right Hon. Baronet, who had just sat down, had ap plied to his Hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-upon-Trent, in order to satisfy himself and the House of the propriety and justico of his opinions. This test was—to go down to his con stituents—(" Hear, hear," and laughter. )—to go down to his ccustituents, and ask them whether they approved of his doc trines of free trade or not..—(" Hear, hear," and a laugh. ) Well, if they were to decide the soundness of the doctrines of I\llEl SLN, LONDON, TUIA:S DA EVENING, FEBRUARY 5, 1845 of England.—( Hear, hear. ) The Vice-President of the Board of Trade had told them that the West Indian labourers were in an extremely prosperous condition, that they had two shillings a day, besides provision found, and that it was difficult to get them to give a complete day's !abour. Now, he believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman was correct in that representation, but he wanted to know, if they compared his condition with that of the peasant in Dorsetshire or Somerset shire, where was the justice of taxing the peasant of Dorset or Somerset, and not the negro peasant in the West Indies? Well, it was not justice to the labotrer that required the pro tection. Was it the merchant or ship owner that required it? No person would deny that they would not gain more by an unrestricted trade than by protection.—( Hear hear.) Who then required it ? It was clear that the only remaining class l‘estlud ; and i"—(i t the people the hear)—and t n h e e r owners planters ttehr residentlan d in the this r country in people of England would do well to consider that, when jus tice to the colonies was talked of, it meant, stating the matter plainly and intelligibly, the placing of a large sum of money in the pockets of certain West India planters resident in this country.—(l-fear. ) If the West India planters had a case against this country he was prepared to meet it fairly. If they put forward a good case, he was sure the people of England would meet their demand fairly, as they did when they paid the twenty millions foe the abolition of slavery. If they proved the case, the people of this country would meet their demands fully and fairly, but in the way least onerous to the country, namely, by charging the Consolidated Fund with an annuity for those gentlemen.—( Hear, hear.) But he for one would not consent to a tax on account of the West India pro • prietors, which for every pound it put into their pockets, took two out of the pockets of the people.—( Hear, hear.) And he would prove that this was the case, and that the difference was wasted in the way in which;labour and capital was employed.-- ( Hear. ) But he would go further, and contend that while this measure was most injurious to the people of England, and was a gross injustice to the manufacturing classes of this coun try, it would also disappoint the West India proprietors ( Hear, hear.) And the grounds of that opinion it was not difficult to explain. Whoever took the trouble of becoming acquainted with the condition of the West India colonies, par ticularly whoever had carefully read the Report of the Com mittee in 184'2. would see at once that the great ground of complaint, on the part of the planters, was that while there was great competition for labour on their part, the wages of the negro were so high that by only working part of the day he was able to supply himself with all those necessaries an d luxuries to which he was accustomed. Of course, like men in other countries, they did not like work for work's sake. They found that whatever was the price of sugar the planters sought to outbid each other by offering the highest price for labour, which the price of sugar at the time enabled them to afford. That was a necessary consequence of a limited supply of labour. But what would be the effect of raising the price of sugar, and raising thereby the competition for labour amongst the plan ters? His belief was, that the competition which already existed would become roore intense—higher wages would be offered to the• negro. They would then be enabled to supply themselves with all they wanted at a smaller amount of labour, and the effect would be in all probability a diminished supply of sugar, thus placing the West Indies, as compared with the East Indies, in a worse position than at present.—( Hear, hear.) There was strong reason for believing that such would be the effect of the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet. And he thought that the best opportunity now presented itself of making a change in the policy hitherto pursued, because after a long perseverance in the protective system, and after quiet was established, he thought it would tend to great temporary disturbance to make such a change. But now that a large reduction of taxation was pro posed, if they made this change of policy they would escape this serious shock to colonial industry. And it was also to be con sidered, that by making the two measures simultaneous, by coupling together the reduction on colonial sugar and the equalisation of duty on sugar of all descriptions--by making the two conteinnoraneous they might hope to give the consumer the benefit he ought to have from the reduction granted to him at the expense of the Treasury. If they were to reduce the duty on colonial sugar without extending the source of supply, he thought the great probability was that there would be no fall of consequence in the price of sugar. The consumption of this country was entirely kept down by the price— it was so infinitely below the real wants of the people—(Hear) —that his belief was that if the source of supply were not ex tended at the moment the duty was reduced, the price would rise with the demand, and the advantage of the reduction would be divided between the planter and the labourer em ployed in the cultivation of sugar. His belief was that if the supply of sugar was increased by enlarging the sources from which it came, it would be absorbed so much by this country. where the richest body of consumers were to be found, that the price would rise of necessity in the other markets of the world. Price being thus supported, and looking to the fact that the price of colonial and Brazil sugar in bond was but 7s. 6d. a few days ago, and that the remission proposed by the Government on colonial Augur was I Is. ; considering that, he felt persuaded that the price of sugar in all the markets of the world would be so supported for a time, that the immediate fall of price in this country could not go beyond the amount of the remission of the duty. If that were so, then (and this was what he wished to impress on the House), this desirable change of policy might be effected without injuring, at all events for the present, the colonial produce. If the fall of price in this country did net exceed the remission of the duty, the consumer would remain as well off as he was at this moment. No doubt in the course of time, the price would be brought down. But then the argument of Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite was, that the principles of free trade, which were those of common sense, ought not to be introduced at once, but gra• dually, and he had shown that if the principle were now in troduced its operation would be slow. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had admitted that of late years there was a con siderable improvement in the cultivation of sugar, and he had no doubt but that improvement would greatly advance if the West Indies were subjected to a closer competition. He be lieved that the system of working by agen t s an d attorneys was at the root of the whole evil, and that when the negroes, who were advancing in material prosperity and in intellectual power, became proprietors, they would be able to contend with the producers of foreign countries. When all those improvements had taken place which the state of the West Indian population required, there could be no doubt that all the advantages which the advo cates of emancipation predicted from the employment of free labour instead of slave-labour, would result. They knew that in this country, where farms or manufactories were carried on by agents, while the owners lived in Naples or Moscow, much profit was not derived from them ; and so it was with re gard to the cultivation of sugar in the West Indies. But they must remember how fast the condition of the negro was improving ; and when he had the stimulus of personal interest, he had no doubt that the cultivation and manufacture of sugar would be improved in the highest degree. Every day there was rising into manhood, not an uneducated population, de graded by the influences of slavery, but enlightened by educa tion. By slavery they might extort more physical labour from the slave, but. they could not draw out the qualities of his mind. For that purpose slavery was powerless, and accord ingly all experience proved that every business carried on by slave labour, whether in their own colonies, or the United States or Brazil, in all those eases it was proved that free labour was more profitable than slave labour, and that was emphatically the case in the cultivation of sugar. That was the reason why, after two or three centuries, there was still observed so little difference between the primitive state of those affected by this question and their condition at that time. More had been done towards realising their wishes within the last half dozen years, and since slavery had been abolished in their own colonies, than in the two cen turies before. But still, considering the improvements going on in the trade of Antigua and Barbadoes, the improvements in the condition of the labourers was not so rapid as it ought to be. They still wanted the stimulus of competition, but they mi g ht look to this result, that, in three years, f ree l a b our wou ld be so much cheaper than slave labour, in Trinidad and other places, that they would not only be able to drive slave lab our out of their own markets, but out of the markets of the world, and, by doing so, not only abolish the slave trade, but slavery itself. The great result to which they might with confidence look, was this, that if they had sufficient faith in the truth of their great principle, sufficient confidence in the realisation of all that was good and great, over that which was the opposite, if, instead of shrinking frem the inconveniences or temporary difficulties which must result from the change he recommended, for he did not deny that some temporary incon veniences and some immediate evil might not arise.—(Hear, from the Ministerial side of the House.) lie was not pre pared to deny that some immediate encouragement might not be given to the slave-trade, but he considered that any tem porary evil of this kind ivas of minor importance, when looked at in connexion with such great and glorious objects. He did not attempt to deny that some inconvenience might be expe rienced by equalising at present the duties on all sugars to the exclusion of 'slave fabou'r from their markets, but he liked still less their plan of rejecting some, and admitting others— which they might think it too great a sacrifice to refuse— their plan of attempting to bolster up their colonies by pro teetive duties. He did not deny that those measures, while they were utterly powerless to get rid of the evil, might nevertheless answer for the time ; bat if, in order to put down not only the slave-trade but slavery itself, they continued them, the remedy would be found quite inadequate. If they trusted in the truth of that great principle which they had with due consideration adopted—if they were prepared to trust their own colonies to struggle in the markets with the produce of the slave countries—if it was their opinion that no good could arise without pursuing some stated principle— if they admitted slave-grown sugar as they admitted cotton, tobacco, or other products—if they were prepared to do this, there might be some temporary inconvenience, it was true they might not indeed gain a great victory for the cause of humanity, but they might rest assured that free labour would triumph in the struggle over slavery. Such was his conviction, and in that conviction he would support the motion of the Hon. Member for Man chester; and his answer to the Hon. Gentleman on the oppo site side, who taunted him in supporting it, was, that he was not more indifferent to the horrors of slavery now than when it was triumphant in the colonies, and that it ill became them to taunt, who were not by those horrors prevented from profiting by those abuses as long as they lasted, those who were but new philanthropists. He was not more indifferent than when he had supported those honourable and patriotic men to whose exertions the British nation was indebted for equalizing the sta tion of the bondman and the free. He had humbly supported those, one of whom he could not help remarking they had lately lost—one whom they must all remember for his since rity, his zeal, and his earnestness in the cause of the slave—but although he had supported sir Thomas Fowell Buxton, al though he retained the full feeling that he then advocated, he was not to be deterred from supporting the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, and he did hope that the people of this country would look on, and compare their con duct with the previous conduct of those who put forward this question as the advocates of free trade, and see how much of sincerity there was at the bottom of their arguments, and then ask themselves, on a question like that, if any Ministry could passively look on the evils of this country, on the distresses of its labourers, and still continue by this mode of legislation to burden the country with its present amount of pecuniary taxation? Mr. GLADSTONE said that he for one meant not to dis cuss the question of slavery as slavery with the Noble Lord who had just sat down ; but he concurred in the eulogium which the Noble Lord had just passed on the principles which had actuated the late Sir T. Fowell Buxton, although he could not help thinking that the Noble Lord was not particularly happy in his choice of introducing at that time the taunt of their being new philanthropists. The Noble Lord was an advocate of extreme measures, and he was prepared to bring the question to a fina settlement. But he (Mr. Glad stone) was not sure that this merit would attach to the motion of the Hon. Member for Manchester. Now, the lion. Gentleman had stated he had heard much said of the tax that had been paid by the people - on account of the differential duties. lie did net deny that there was a payment, which, if they pleased, they might call a tax on sugar, but why should they resort to unnecessary exaggeration ? The Noble Lord opposite had commenced his speech by attacking the Hon. Member for Bristol, and by stating that 2,300,0001. was the minimum tax on the people for sugar; but instead of showing a difference of 131. or 10/., he only showed a difference of 7s. 6d. Lord HOWICK—That was after the change. Mr. GLADSTONE—Yes, but after that change it was said there would be a rise. The Noble Lord had informed them, and truly, that if they granted equalization there would be a rise in the price of sugar, and there would be no diminu tion of the tax paid by the people.—( Hear, hear.) It had been said that the gist of the question had not been met ; he granted that it had not ; but the policy of this country had been to maintain a system of protection, and that under that certain engagements had been entered into, perhaps viciously, but interests hs..d been formed which the British Parliament would support if it was just. Ile slid not think the Hou.,e would be prepared to admit that they ought to apply with sudden hand the principle of free trade to cir cumstances so artificial as those under which the sugar trade remained. The Hon. Member for Wolverhampton had said what claim had the West India proprietors to deferential duty? He wished heartily that equality could be established between native and foreign protection, but it was the extreme dearness of production in the West Indies that made the difficulty that had always been felt.--(Hear, hear.) Now what was the cause of all this? Why, it was said that the scarcity of labour was the cause of all.—( Hear, hear. ) Now he could not agree with that.—( Hear. ) It was true that that was one great cause of the scarcity, but another cause was the non residence of proprietors. If they could change the non-resident proprietors to residents he believed the great difficulty would be removed.—( Hear, hear.) But how came the West Indian proprietors to be non-resident? Why, because it was com patible with the slavery system ; for that the Parliament of the country was responsible.—( Hear, hear.) It was on the ground of non-reddence that he rested his case for the protection of th e sugar duties. Parliament had interfered and abolished slavery, and, therefore, it made that which was hitherto abun dant, scarce. The consequence was—that labour, which was cheap, became dear, and those who caused that dearness were bound to meet their share of the consequences of their own acting. It might be shown that there were estates in the West Indies that had not met with losses ; but with regard to the greater portion of them, perhaps not one in ten, aye, per haps not one in fifty, stood on the right side of the account. The Noble Lord had said that the present was a most favour able opportunity for the equalisation of the duties on sugar.— ( Hear, hoar.) What was now proposed ? Why, instead of maintaining a system which gave the West Indians 205. per hundred weight, they were about to adopt a system that would give only 103. A severe pressure had been brought to bear upon the West Indian proprietors since the abolition of slavery. Ile was unwilling to detain the House long upon the subject, because it was not necessary to argue it farther. He was per suaded that the House would deal with the question now before it as it had dealt with many such questions, and that it would not begin at the wrong end as to the principle of free trade. Let them apply the principle of free trade wherever they could without producing evil.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") But let them not begin by applying those principles against the produce of the West Indies.—( Hear.) They should not com pare it with those interests which came before the House with out any special claim, whereas the West Indians had this ground that the causes which prevented them from competing with their foreign rivals were brought about by the measures of Parliament—those causes being principally non-residence of the landlords, and the scarcity of labour —which latter was the consequence of the honourable but costly Act of the British Parliament, in the emancipation of the negro slaves.—( Hear. ) Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he would not detain the House more than a very few minutes. But having frequently had occasion to take part in the discussion of this question, he could not allow the present motion to be disposed of without troubling the House with a few words. He was not disposed en this occasion to discuss the scheme of her Majesty's Minis ters. To it he had great objections.--( Hear, hear.) But he was glad that the proposition of his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) and those of other Gentlemen on that side of the House would give him an opportunity of stating his objections. One of those objections was, that not only was the scheme in trinsically bad in itself, but, instead of bringing the duties on sugar to the point which they should reach, or diminishing the protection, it was proposed to increase the protection which already existed.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, by adding to the protection, it greatly increased the difficulty of dealing with the subject at a future time. The question at present before the House was really whether at once and completely they should proceed to substitute for the present duty one of conapleto equality. That was the real question before the House. He thought he had fairly stated the question as it has' been put by the Hon. Member for Manchester, and his Noble Friend the Member for Sunderland.—( Hear, hear.) Now he conceived that nothing could be more objectionable—however much he condemned those duties—than to proceed at once to equalisation.—(Ministerial cheers.) The consequence would be to throw into confusion and to paralyse every interest con nected with the colonial sugar trade.—(Ministerial cheers. ) He felt bound to say that, on this occasion, he must take the course which he had uniformly taken when similar questions affecting interests in the country came before the House. He did not think that the course recommended by the Hon. Mover (Mr. Gibson) and his Noble Friend was that which the Government ought to pursue, and he, for one, as a Member of that House, would not be a party to force it upon there.—(Ministerial cheers.) The question had been so fully argued that he was not disposed to detain the Reuse at any length. He was the more unwilling to do so, because he assured them that, although he had thought it his duty not to shrink from avowing his dissent from his Noble Friend and the Hon. Mover, yet it was painful to him to argue with them upon a subject upon which to so great an extent he agreed with them. —( Hear, hear.) He agreed with them, that the danger in that House was not that protection would be too suddenly withdrawn—(Cheers)—but that it would be continued too long—(Cheers) —to the injury of the country and of the pro tected interests themselves.--( Cheers.) Therefore it was with unwillingness he opposed motions of this kind.—( Hear, hear. ) But it was now proposed to substitute for a system of exclusion and monopoly, one of perfect free trade. That was a course opposed to even the great and recognised authorities in political economy, from Adam Smith to the present day. He found that they all—however clearly they laid down and il lustrated the principles of free trade—they all said that circumspection and caution should be used in applying those principles to interests which had been long cherished under the principle of protection. In that House he had heard the most distinguished statesmen—from Mr. Huskisson down—and he had never heard a contrary opinion from any public man whose opinion carried any great weight.—( Hear, hear.) And, looking to the policy of the world, they would never see a long-continued protection suddenly removed.— ( Hear, hear.) Looking to this, and to the present position of the colonies, he did not think that the real interests of the country would bo promoted by adopting a resolution of the description of that now proposed. Considering the present position of the West Indian interests, and the course of legisla tion pursued toward s them, there was every reason why those principles of caution and circumspection, so just and reasonable in themselves, and recommended by the highest authorities, should be applied to then.—(Ministerial cheers.) He had no more connexion with the West Indies than any other Member of that House, but he would not deal with the colonial interests more harshly than with any other in terest in this country.—( Hear, hear.) He was, therefore, not prepared to take the course recommended in the resolution be fore the House.—( Hear, hear.) He did not think it necessary to trouble the House at great length on the present occasion, and he would now only say that whilst he was willing to vote for a diminished protection, he could not vote for an equalisation of the duties upon colonial and foreign sugar.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. COBDEN, who commenced in a tone extremely low and indistinct, so as to be for some minutes almost inaudible in the gallery, was understood to say, that when he considered that the arguments upon this question were nearly exhausted, he was not disposed to occupy the time of the House at any great length. But he had taken some little trouble with the subject, which was an old acquaintance of his.—( Cheers and laughter.) That (as we understood) might be some little apology for him in speaking upon this occasion.--( Hear, and a laugh.) Since he had heard the Hon. Member for Bristol and the Hon. Member for Cumber land express themselves quite satisfied with the scheme of the Right Hon. Baronet, he was certain not only that the measure was as bad as the one of last year, but that it was something worse.—( Cheers and a laugh.) Ho supposed that the Right Hon. Baronet wished to have a little flirtation with the prin ciples of free-trade--(Laughter)—these principles which he (Mr. Cobden) and his friends cherished. But then the Right Hon. Baronet turned back to his first love—( A laugh) —and they could not expect him to follow them.—( Hear and a laugh.) The Right Hon. Baronet's Budget took something out of the pockets of the people by means of the income-tax, and gave it back by the repeal of some Customs duties. But he ( Mr. C.) thought that with regard to the protective duties on sugar, the people would be on the whole in a worse position than they were last year.—( Opposition cheers.) He did not think he had any other part of the assertion to deal with, but the subject of slavery. His Noble Friend (Lord Howick) had been charged with imputing motives. lie ( Mr. Cobden) would not impute motives. But he might do Right Hon. Gentlemen some good by telling them what motives were im puted to them out of doors.—( Hear, hear.) Gentlemen thought that in supporting the scheme of the :Government they would have the assistance of the anti-slavery body in this country. In that they were mistaken.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Cobden) had an extensive acquaintance amongst that most respectable body, and he could say that the greater part of them were supporters of the principles of free trade.—( Loud cries of " No, no. ) There were Committees sitting in Lom bard-street and Bond-street (in London). But he remem bered that they voted for the Hon. Gentleman now Member for Huntingdon.—( Cheers.) But with the great body of the opponents of slavery they had no influence, no support.— (Cheers, and cries of " Hugh, hugh," and other discordant cries from the Ministerial benches.) When the Anti-Slavery Society existed who were its representatives in that House?—(Loud cheers. ) The Members for Manchester, for Kendal, for Leeds, for Bath.—(Cheers.) These were all Members upon the Liberal side of the House, and who sent them there? The anti-slavery body.—(Cheers.) Let them look to Leeds.—( Hear, hear.) They (the Ministerial side) had one Member. The Opposition had another. The Minis terial Member represented that party who, to the last, resisted the emancipation of the negro slaves.—( Cheers.) The Liberal Member, on the contrary, was the representative of those who had made the most strenuous and indefatigable efforts for the abolition of slavery.—(Cheers.) He was sorry that the Hon. Member for Bath had a cold.—( A laugh.) But he weuld ask the Hon. Member to tell the House whether his anti-slavery friends in Bath would have the sugar of the poor labourers in Somersetshire kept. at a high price to protect the West Indian interest?—( Hear, hear.) The Gentlemen opposite who sup ported this scheme under the pretence of discouraging slavery were the persons who to the last resisted the abolition of slavery —(Cheers)—who to the last resisted the exemption of women from the lash.—(lmmense cheering.) Every one of them (the Tories ),every one of their leaders resisted the exemption of women from the lash.—(Cheers.) Let them not say that he charged them with motives.—( A laugh.) He only told them the mo tives which were attributed to them out of doors. The resolu tion only said that the protection was not to be permanent. They would vote against that. Let them consider then what would be the opinion of foreign nations on this subject ? Would they not say that the Right Hon. Baronet and his supporters were guilty of hypocrisy in their proposed hostility to slavery ? Would they not say, as Mr. Colquhoun had stated in a most bold and statesman-like document, that they wished to put down slavery, in order that they might have a monopoly in the production of sugar.—( Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman assumed that. the business of sugar making could not be carried on in competition with slave la bour ; and the H on . M em b er f or C um b er l an d said. " How would you like to carry - onthernanufacturing in Manchester against competitors abroad who paid no wages?"—that means, against people who steal their workmen, and make them work for their food. In reply to this challenge, he (Mr. Cobden) would say, that he desired no other competitors than those.— ( Ilear, hear.) If the manufacturers of the North of England had only a gang of slaves to compete with, they could command sv the markets of the world.—( Hear , hear. ) Was there ever such an absurdity—such a monstro us absurdit y , as to su pp ose that a community 9f slaves could rival a n ation of freemen.— ( Che ers. ) The very nature of slave lab our p recludes those eco nomical arrangements which fre emen are able to effect. S lavery in volves expenses, he repeated, which freemen donot , a be s e u a ffi us c e ie h n e t that employs slaves mu st kee p a sufficient nu mber of workmen on his premises to meet e ver y p o ss i ble contingency. If th e proprietor be a sugar manufacturer he must have r nu mber of coopers about him to meet his wants, and mu more,stin ofe retain forla bourers, he must allow for casualties. In thesam a sufficient number of waggoners, and oth e er their way e he descriptionsrices once a wonlywant tell hi m t h at i n such a state of tcivem 0 n th. though he Would shouldah3, one society as that, which precluded the division of labour, the ap plication of science, or the ma rc h o f i mprovement, slavery could surpass freedom. Che assumption that s ß p i e g e h e t h ell Hon. .the Gentleman Hon . Gentlementh ei o pervaded the whole of the opposite, and particularly of the colonies. duty_ would necessarilylembreinr for Newark, was, that an b • g ruin on every one of the That presumption he characterised as an odious fallacy. He denied java the premises. They had been disproved in Manilla and If the sugar growers in those places could sell their sugar in Holland in opposition to those of Brazil, why not the West Indians as well. The Hon. Mem ber for Bristol came here very much in forma pamperis, pload ing for relief in order to carry on the business; but he (Mr. Cobden) submitted that b e f ore they hey doled out the public money to these gentlemen, they should investigate their accounts. Let us see how they carry oh their business. If all he heard was true,. nothing could ba more clumsy, more expensive, more extrava gant he should have said, nothing more erroneous than the system pursued in the West Indian colonies. He had heard a great deal of this expense attributes! to the habits of the workmen. He believed the blame was justly attributable to the masters. What was the fact ? The wages of workmen, in the West In s:ian colonies, was only one shilling per day. The Noble Lord ob,erved, and his observation was founded upon a statement made on the oiler side of the House, that the wages were two shillings per day. But he (Mr. Cobden) should say advisedly that the wages were only one shilling per day. Mr. JAMES—The wag es are two shillings per day. Mr. COBDEN said lie had received a letter from Jamaica, in which it was stated that the wages were only one shilling per day, so that the lion. Gentleman did not know his own busi ness. He would net mention the name of the gentleman from whom he had received this advice, nor the names of those per sons contained in it, but he would show the letter to any Hon. Member who wished to inspect it ; and the lion. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, who had received a copy of the letter, would be able to answer for the authority and genuineness of the document. He learned from this letter that men's labour was done by the day, and Is. 3d. was the standard rate of wages ; but when they laboured at job work they were able to earn 2s. a day, which was very satisfactory to both parties, lie apprehended that after all this was not such a dispiriting description of the West India labourers. A man that received Is. a day for ordinary work, and by greater dispatch was able to earn 25., could not be such a mere ma chine, such a mere log as the West Indian labourer was some times described. He thought, as he said before, that more blame was attributable to the masters than the workmen, and if it would not too much occupy the time of the House, he would read one or two extracts from the letter alluded to. The writer of this letter was a resident of Jamaica, and was ac quainted with everything going on there. The Hon. Gentle man proceeded to read extracts from the letter, of which the following is the substance : —He said that the great evil of the West Indian colonies was absenteeism, and that absentee pro prietors could never expect to get anything out of their estates. Their profits were swallowed up by attorneys, overseers, bookkeepers, and a host of others. Then the merchant must have his portion before a shiiling could be remitted to the proprietor in England. I f the proprietor resided on his property, and attended to it, or let the property to practical men, the results would soon be apparent. The wrier proceeded to say, that a friend of his, whose name he would not mention, made last year one hun dred hogsheads of sugar and sixty of rum, clearing one thousand pounds. Another, Mr. —, a Creole, and a man of colour, cleared 150/. per annum. Last year he made 110 hogsheads of sugar, with the usual proportion of rum, clearing 600/., although the season was a dry one. Another, who held land at a place called St. Thomas (I see that the mouth of my Honourable Friend the Hon. Member for Weymouth waters at this description.)-- ( Laughter.) This person five years ago cultivated and ma nured what had been rather a barren estate, according to the most approved principles, sinking a good deal of money in it, but last year he cleared 800/. The writer mentioned the case of another who commenced some years ago with 6,0001. capital ; 4,000/. of this he spent in improving the land, and. amongst other things, imported from England a stock of agri cultural implements, and from Scotland some labourers, and in stead of oxen he employed horses. Last year, after every expense, this gentleman,who did not reside on his property, cleared 2,000/. and had he resided on his estate would have cleared 500/. more. The surrounding estates belonged to absentee proprietors, they were losing money in them, as far as they were sinking it. The radical defect in the system was, that many proprietors had too much land, only a portion of which was cultivated in a practical manner. The expenses were swallowed up with attorneys, overseers, and such-like persons, in short the greatest evil resulted from this system of absentee proprietorship. In short, he (Mr. Cobden) thought that upon examination they would find that the same cause of agricultural depres sion in this country operated in the 'West Indies—Protection. He had always found the very strongest argument for free trade when he sought for it in the condition of the agricultu rists; and if any one were thoroughly master of our colonial condition on the question of the sugar duties, it would, he be lieved, be found the strongest ground for advocating tke aboli tion of protective duties, and the ultimate welfare and pros perity of the colonies themselves. lie would not enter into further arguments on this question, but Hon. Gentlemen op posite must not console themselves with the idea that this was a final settlement of the question.—( Hear, hear.) Look out of doors. Had the principles of free trade advanced or retrograded?—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Gen tleman talked of the small body of free traders —very violent men he said. Let him look to the free traders in that House, and whom they represented. Look, for instance, into the City of London, in which every house hada vote, and behold the test of the opinion of ker citizens on this: question. Were they the advocates of protection or free-trade ? Let the Hon. Member for Huntingdon answer that question, and tell him the result. In the metropolis the question, he repeated, had been fairly tested. It was a fair open fight, protection or free trade ; or let them turn to Middlesex, or South Lancashire, or the West Riding of Yorkshire, or Manchester, Glasgow, Edin burgh, Nottingham, or Derby—" violent men," free traders re presented these great and important constituencies.— ( Cries of " Hear, hear.") What were these but the great expositors of public opinion ? They were not mere pocket burghs, from which votes might be counted in that House, but a vote there was not everything, argument should likewise be considered.—(Cries of " Hear.") The arguments of Hon. Members opposite might be very well here ; but he could tell them that when they went out upon the lobby of the House, they would find very few amongst their supporters but those who were the representatives of pocket boroughs and counties.—( Hear, hear.) And whatever the result of this debate might be—whatever side the vote should be for—he could tell Hon. Members opposite that the decision of it would not end here ; and if that vote should be in favour of protection, most decidedly it would be resisted.-- ( Hear, hear.) It had been said that no more capital was wanted to be expended by the owners of those distant estates ; but he would ask was not capital required to be expended in the farming districts here?—( Hear, hear.) He would say, look at the town and neighbourhood of Macclesfield ; would it be said that if free trade operated there it would not be a more prosperous town than it was, though it had its Duke? or would it be said that Jamaica would not be had recourse to because free trade had been put in force there ?—( Hear, hear.) In fact the view taken of this whole question by Hon. Mem bers opposite put him in mind of the sayings of old women, that sugar was not wholesome, in order to deter children from using it, because it was so dear • but there never was a greater mistake, for sugar, next to bread, was the most nutritious food t hat could be used.—( Hear.) The whole of the arguments, then, of Honourable Gentlemen opposite, notwith standing all they had said about their consideration and feeling for the poor, vanished completely before their support of those class interests, whether of landlords or sugarlords.—( Hear.) The professions of Hon. Members opposite, in regard to the poor, when contrasted with their conduct upon this question, led the people to say that the Government were treacherous, that all they said was lip service, and that a difference of one penny in the pound in the price of sugar would make them throw the poor labourers and their families to the winds. Mr. CARDWELL did not conceive that the observations of the Hon. Member who had just sat down were at all applicable to the motion now under consideration. The Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland had said that the arguments of Hon. Members at this side of the House were not confined to the question at issue ; but he (Mr. Cardwell)) would ask—did not the amendments proposed by the Hon. Member opposite deal entirely with the question in the abstract ?—(llear, hear.) Surely, then, it could not be said that the Government were blameable for dealing in abstract principles, when the resolu tions of the Ho n . Members opposite were more than usually remarkable for dealing in abstract principles, and entirely wanting in facts and circumstances to support them. It was all very fine for Hon. Members to talk of free labour, and all that; he (Mr. Cardwell) sincerely hoped that the time would come when slave labour would be done away with in the West Indies ; but he would ask—who first established it ?—was it not that side of the House ?—(Hear, hear.) He would say to those Hon. Gentlemen who were for doing away with the protection, let them re-enact the slave trade if they were anxious to permit Cuba and Brazil to com pete with West India sugar.—( Hear, hear.) Several Hen. Members had said that there would be a great increase in the consumption ; but the Noble Lord the Member for Sunder land had said that the West Indies would produce sufficient to bear down all competition; yet, if the present measure pro posed by her Majesty's Government should be supported by this House, there need be no apprehension on that ground.— ( Hear, hear.) Even supposing that the price of West India sugar were materially reduced, and that this country was to depend for a supply on Cuba and Brazil, was there to be no calculation made for the present price, with a view to doing justice to the \Vest India growers.—(Criee of "Hear, hear.") lie believed that the calculations made by some of the Hon. Gentlemen were erroneous in a commercial point of view, while the evidence which he had brought forward confirmed the great increase which was now going on in die produce of the East and West Indies, under a process which was entirely unobjectionable, and calculates! to promote their own commer cial schemes. The lion. Member who last sat down had intro duced into this discussion topics which he could not help think ing were quite unnecessary. The Honourable Member had thought proper to east imputations on the Government which might recoil upon himself.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member said the peopl e would call them " hypocrites," and he gave this as his reason for thinking so. The Hon. Member said that a great number of the persons who formed themselves into an anti-slavery body ten years ago, were now joined with kim in a cry for cheap sugar. Now, peo ple out of doors might draw their inferences from this as well as from what fall from Hon. Members on the Ministerial side of the House. They were quite as likely to impute hypocrisy to the one as to the other.—(Cheers.) They were pursuing a prudential course now ; but if they were to follow the recom mendation of the Hon. Member for Stockport, the slavery market would be revived, and then they would see those gen tlemen to whom the Hon. Member alluded getting up a new agitation against slavery.—( Hear.) Now, on the other - hand, he showed them that their supplies were being increased without resorting to this objectionable source, and without disturbing the existing interests of the country; and he therefore did not think it advisable to adopt a recommendation which was not sanctioned either by the commercial body or the public generally. Mr. BRIGHT said the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the House had taken upon himself to say that the proposition which had been submitted to the House was one of an abstract character. Now, there was sufficient evi dence to induce him to believe that some Members of that House thought otherwise.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Cumberand, who was a West India proprietor, he did not recollect having seen in the House since the time when the abstract sugar duties were discussed during the last session, and if h e was not mistaken, the lion. Member came from capital of Europe for the purpose of meeting this a proposition.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon.notGceonntlseidmearnitthane late President of the Board of Trade, did uG a f b e s rn t e r t sl a ue c ms t r ai p tn r a o t p ti uh o ue s i t t ch i o ha n ta , ne f cr o ee r lul h oi u e r go h .f a_d t(h s Le h aoEuwgxnhe hue e t ee x rci t . ro r, r dhi Thenad a r y symptoms n r ßight ust e H d o h n i s . countenance in more th an usual solemnity', notwithstanding the abstract matter of the proposition. He could say that this pr o p os i t i on was the most plain, the . most easy to understand, that had ever been submitted to that or any other House of Legislation.—( Hear, hear.) The proposition which had been made was that the system of taxation pursued with respect to sugar was unsatisfactory to the great body of the people of this country, nor could it be otherwise, sinless the duties imposed on foreign and colonial sugar were equalised. They maintained that the Government, by collusion with the West Indies, the East Indies, and the Mauritius planters, were taking from the people of this country a very large annual tax, which they were not paying into the exchequer of the Queen, but handing it over to the sugar plantation proprietors. Now, there had always beets a great stickler against discussing this question, and this they found in pocket interests.—( Hear, hear.) What were the grounds on which they claimed to levy this tax upon the consumers of sugar in this country ? No doubt, the same as those advanced in this country in favour of the landlord's monopoly. The Hon. Member for Sheffield had given notice of his intention to move for a Select Com mittee to inquire into the burdens which pressed upon the landed interest, but it would not be granted. No, the Hon. Landlords were afraid to bring their especial burdens before that House,. and the same might be said of the sugar planters. N o w, he was looking that manning over the speech of the whole masl amount t h u e f called sug ar hliiisg financial Honourable statement. Baronet He 'est Indies, in the coming nso t o he to l o l s,from the East I ndies found when the he 40 000 y 70,000, and }ear, w m a e s stated he e from the Mauritius , tons, making a total of expected t e b d e from ji 250,900 tons. Now the Right Hon. Gentleman the late Pre- I