The Sun. — London, England, 1844-05-14 00:00:00

HOUSE OF . COMMONS, May 13. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four_o'Clock. The SOLICITOR•GENERAL (Mr. Thesiger) took the oaths and his seat for Abingdon. Mr. SCOTT MURRAY ? who has lately embraced the Catholic religion, took the oath required tp b e taken by Roman Catholic Members on taking their seats NEW WRIT. Sir T. FREMANTLE moved that a new writ be issued for the election of a burgess to serve for the borough of Launceston, in the room of, Sir Henry Hardinge, who since his election had accepted the office of Governor-General of India. . . Lord HOWICI( said ,he understood that, by an Act which passed about two years ago ' it was pro vided that a Member of the Hous e of Commons ac cepting any Indian office, did not thereby vac ate his seat. He (Lord Howick) wished to know if the Hon. Baronet was quite sure that the seat had be m vacated? Sir T. FREMANTLE said he had referred to the Act which had been mentioned by the Noble Lord, and he found that Sir Henry Hardinge had, by his acceptance of the office of Governor-General of India vacated his seat. Sir H. INGLIS said the misapprehension of the Noble Lord had arisen from , the office which had been accepted by the Right Hon. Gentleman being - one not under the Crown. Mr. M. PHILIPS said another question would arise, which was, whether the Governor-General could be •considered as filling that office before he was sworn in at Calcutta ? The wilt was then ordered. Mr. BELL presented a petition from the Sheriffs' officers of Northumberland against the County Courts Bill. DISSENTERS' CHAPELS BILL. Mr. GREENE presented a petition from' a body of Dissenters, against the Dissenters' Chapels Bill. CORN-LAWS. Lord HOTHAM presented forty-two petitions, signed by 5,000 persons, from Yorkshire, against any alteration of the corn-laws. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. Mr. SHAW presented a petition from some clergy , men of Dublin, against the national system of edu cation. THE WELSH BISHOPRICS. Sir ROBERT INGLIS presented several petitions praying for the repeal of the Act for the union of the bishoptics of Bangor and St. Asaph. Mr. KEMBLE presented a' similar petitioh; but we did not,hear from whence. ART-UNIONS. Mr. NEWDEGATE presented a petition from Warwick, praying the House to take measures to legalise Art-Unions. . Mr. MARK PHILIPS presented a similar peti tion from Manchester. Mr. WYSE presented two , petitions to the same effect, one from Birmingham, and the other from the Midland Counties Art-Union. Mr. MILNES presented a petition to the same effect from carvers, gilders, and frame-makers. POOR-LAWS. Colonel LEITH HAY presented a petition from Elgin in favour of Presbyterian marriages in.lreland. COUNTY COURTS—MORTMAIN. Mr. WILSON PATTEN presented a ' petition from 718 persons at Manchester, against the County Courts Bill. The Hox. MEMBER also presented a petition from a solicitor at Manchester, alleging that property was held in trust for Roman Catholic purposes, contrary to the statute , and pray in g t o b e examined befkire the Committee on the Statute of Mortmain. Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented petitions from the National Complete Suffrage Union, signed by the President, Mr. Joseph Sturge, praying for Manhood Suffrage, Vote by Ballot, Repeal of Property Qualification for Members of Parliament, Equal Elec toral Districts, Payment of Members, and Annual Parliaments ; also a petition from a public . meeting of the inhabitantg of Liverpool, signed by the chair man, Lawrence Heyworth, praying for an extension of the Parliamentary suffrage, and such other pro visions as may be necessary to secure a full, fair, and free representation of the people. Lord ASHLEY presented several petitions from places in Lancashire in favour of a Ten Hours'Fae tories .13ill Lord CLIVE presented petitions from Montgomery against the union of the sees of Bangor and St. .Asaph. NOTICES OF MOTION.—IRISH MUNIC:2 BILL. Mr. SHAW gave notice that in Committee on the Irish Municipal Bill he should move amendments for THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MAY 14, 1844. l idating the state of the law of property. He (Lord Brougham) had spoken of cligesting not only the statutary law, but the common law, and thought the statement he had made of the dilfuied condition of the statute law was sufficient to show that the common law ought not to be exclude.: froei the operat:on of his Motion. The dictum was that a:I LICTi should obey this law. yet it was embodied in no less than 150,000 closely Printed pages, which was elucidated by an index with no less than 1,150 pages. He thought it was a most painful thing to judges to have to depend, i n d ec idi ng upon t h ose cases ; u pon eir own discretion ; what he wanted was to have some fixed rule by which judges were to decide, be cause he was 'confident that the crimes of murder, arson, treasoa, and such like, were the same now as during the days of coke. A judge should be alone influenced by what was the actual law as declared by the Legislature, end not be induced to declare what law was. Let their Lordships suppose a case wherein a judge had to decide a ,, question in relevance to which no statute law had been enacted. What was his position ? Why, ho 1 1 1 3 1 :d to consult th e re p or t s o f a ll t h e d ec i s ions which re the slightest analogy to that particular case, and there he was left to grope in the dark through all those e ases, in order that he might find something like that which .was under his consideration: The e imsequence of all this was inextricable dis- Pules , and difficulties. During fifteen years of his life, h e h ad had opportunities of being impressed viith the cogency of those arguments; and, in making this assertion he was fully borne out by M. Dupin, the celebrated French writer upon criminal jurisprudence. The Noble and Learned Lord then read a quotation from MeDupin's pamphlet, in 'which he stated that the greatest benefit had resulted from the formation of a cri minal code in France.) This gentleman, it must be re membered ".as ‘‘ ‘ . s as •ai a originally far from being enamoured of. sceptic on the sel'eject. Experience, . :lf : te ve . f . h . ad taught him better. To show the necessity code,-hethe would inform their Lordships that Criminal Law Commissioners had collected no less . 11 :11 thirteen definitions of the crime of theft.. There Zerie 1540 statutes in force, 658 repealed, or supposed to i too r a j e d- There were 142 repealed, or repealed by an ; 234 of. what was called obsolete statutes, altogeth - te ",, s/ Pile a; being 3,354 . Acts of Parliament r ePealcd s4e -' °!t, of those repealed, or supposed to be ten w eei i r ee t.ate l s. .142' were doubtful. No man could There was, for -14,2 were or were not repealed. e te, as, for instanc e the 3d and 4th Edward VI., "*P• Wbiele,„ 0 SOn •t o h av e . made 'it a very . grave offence for a per 111,4nspoesession images taken, from a church, are. - -er .—e rcnul provision, ," - except Noble Lords, who ire 4ints"--(Latigliter)- , ser that if he (Lord e l aughttin were to buy an image which came out of_ a e alls . ..tinder. this statute, which was not repealed, he -- wit be • • Then there was an • Act in ex at.' P11(11544. • fah - ee .„ e llbe Which provided punishment or fund and p an L . 7 41(1 ' re ' p . ` ts . .to stir up faction." This Act might be re 'ught ' e vv ithfOrce against Many of their Lordships. — ( rit e ughtei.) There were Acts, 2 6 th Henry VIII. , and sth and 6th "Edward VI., by which it was made treason call the Sovereign an infidel, so that 140 years aco, under this Act,- it would, have been treason to speak the t rith, and have said of William 111., that he was a ae l li nuatist. The Noble and Learned Lord then enume ,eeritted Several other obselete statutes, respecting which, 4 dinibt 'existed as to whether they had been re - DallDalld or not. O ne was to prevent corn being exported to the price was above 6s. Bd. the quarter ; another Prevent the importation of foreign cards for wool cavdinehillineg,aand a third was for the purpose of imposing. a neon all persons neglecting to attend their parish c o e tiu -r, e i r on a Sunday. This' statute- was supposed to be l et s .e r ?.e ie lentil.te short time ago, alien it was brought b e ee In - Lancashire. Three men were brought eC t e the Magistrates for poaChing on a Sunday, but e'case was not made out against them. Before how thetkeY Were discharged, one of the justices inquired of s e irsodere if they had been to church the previous th en .;te , and' finding that they had not, he sentenced th c7, ,___'' u a fine of eleven shillings each, and costs, and %ease wets suffered an imprisonment of eleven weeks in d'e nie c l e u „ence. He (Lord Brougham) in his letter, to Sir eau;',.raham last year, mentioned this circumstance , "' "' l ight- Hon. Friend of his, shortly after the pubis °h of th e letter, wrote to him (Lord Brougham) to . ix, that t h e printer had made _.one of the greatest as- that printer ever made, for he had printed eipee t s , ch se ulgs" for " pre ac hing."-L-(Laughter.) ,But what r e " 'r - e_Pooper's, his (Lord Brougham's) friend's sur waelthe was inforthed that the printer was right. r e i n * 1, °Per believed, when he read the letter, that . th i e been fined for preaching in some conventicle. That• waa another absurdity in our statute book, and d iL e s e e L as a. the r manner in which the various Acts were th e . folio .an the . 31st of George the Second, ch. 83, ..Itnee w ing thingi were all found together ; et -.for Preventing trading by bankrupts ; for pee- Cit I lu u-se as to the a dmeasurement - of coals in the tee3;:eq!!ondon and Liberty of Westminster; and for 404 1 411 1 g. the stealing -or destroying madder roots.. . 1 . - - 4 Ct in. the same reign, the 29th George IL, thegultg 'places of entertainment, for regu 1104:bur Pln of gorse,- ler regulating thserderly (Lune,' "'I :chilli to attorneys and solicitors. — They then Came to the 22d George 11., Tha n i es .,, ll Int - exestvations along the shores of the River amending the laws regulating attorneys e f b o e r e 'the assize of bread, for making roads in th teicu e la e t ee l:tei e „ 17g e : alatine of Lancester and Chester, and to preeent of-p e re.7q of infeetion amongst horned cattle. In the reign e e” . . 8 : 111 Vie it was laid . down by the oracles of :the de er ;, an Act was not.te be taken as dated from the. sew,: "as passed, but as dated from the first day of the th'whichit was passed. An Act was passed by . 4 . rte'i it was made pehal to import foreign goods iof a e rt descriptio n a f ter the date of • the Act A man- Act ed a quantity of these goods before date of the . iie e e e but la , was, h o wever, , pr o secuted under it, fluid rolirtizhaed, Ilibagh he import passedted . his goods i in 'The r Y , and th e Act was u o l'Fa until May. see was moved upon a writ of error, to ei Lordships' House, and the twe lve Jud g es i n ` 4. " were consulted, and they gave. it as their: on the judgment of the Court in Ireland ought and it was .confirmed accordingly.--7 terfee" )• ~ This was a part of that which was termed n - f q„,n c l f . human reason. In the 13th year of nzabeth, of blessed memory, an Act was I h lll:ae e ,,; • '` r pg that any, erson should he liable to . int lnter t '"" a 'nudared to take more than ten per cent. as " °f MO • in That f, 4e3r. The olause ran these words : e l ves of ',Jl ts 1 7, 'each as:all nsury, being forbidden by the 'tll 'rod, is detestable; therefore be it enacted, that usury,.:titei that is loans of money with above ten per .ntettese.. , Shall - be pimiShed in manner following— ehtt:iig to whOeVer receives a sum beyond that for i t t - e," 41 Pay it back upon action being broug ht." —w- ,:was in existence at this ve hour. i e 'Judgesein all cases in which it was attempted to • :14 t hese obsol e t e l aws i n t o e ff ec t were obliged. to . be 'hoe"e „ 41 ,.. s truments ; they were obliged to help the man .' to to ensnare others in the meshes of the e le eA to tor,h who in the heat of revenge had • d ee ed the pid vier into life and mischief. Whether ..,711, fo e ' r e ant'made a foul defence,'or.the plaintiff brought 13111 - , e ts 4 arge, the judges were obliged to aid them. The he - asked :their' Lordships to read a second Priu m — e f es ted the criminal statute law, and: unfolded the upon which that digest of the crim i n al-law was dee es All the stattites all the judicial decisions , all the ofr d and, v thetes bo ' oks, had been carefull y weighed r t jnoins idefrom the light derived from these - ;e ta tntrseurces, th e enac tments of this Bill, which he • the e '7. them to pass into a law, had been framed. If hree' - ucceiniplished that great work, they would reduce I,,iin i e:digeited body, luminous' in its diction , clear and • ta t e' in 'its arrangement, symmetrical in .. i ts form, at t ee r .e 4 liketti4 UnderstOod, easily remembered by the Acts e „,,e; gee .who have to obey, by the counsel who were Teere ui —nester,_and by the judges who were to decide, the i e ' e rimihal law of . the country.. They would; by so e- end g, confer on their country an inestimable blessing, , gkaron;tthheeraselves lasting renown, realising t he-wish of Saxon King, that the laws.of Britain should • ''• 'th ue and up in small compass, like' unto a faggot, that . 'th er e ,s,l eh they might be the:better kept together —realising tou e 7 4Bt of .Bacon to his Sovereign, that he would do . .Li i i t i t u e r a,r to ry h in is g reign by a .work useful to his country— out the sentiments of the highest legal e; eater? of these realms, the great Lord . Coke, that a aeneee e 11 ws, digested, and methodized, and reduced to . th , —Ha , . articles, as these were, was a work well worthy e • , (Su , and one which would confer lasting benefit • -hue reigned in wish of the first Stuart who --e :g ned in this country, who was the enemy to • • p re e: I nnovation, end the friend to • every establ ished evp . olvertreiyof trbition, wh o h a d sa id that such a work were the summoning of A Parliament to sit if it 'lli t t e e l!ly for th a t ;. realising the wish of Sir Mathew leitiost venerable of -legal 'authorities,' who coni in. his turn of the unnecessary accumulation of :4.l‘,llol_°OkS, small as their numbers were in his day, but c a had not lived. to see the process of accumulation .• ide„ e n °n - as it had been in our times but who, had paid, e sei et ng, to the comparatively small mass of law hooks thel, his own clays, that it would be a work worthy •. th oc e - ranee and of the country, to make one clear me pee. leardigest of the whole ; doing a work which, had . the attention of' all classes of statesmen, roni and rB e / el e l 'and Atkins, and Whitelocke, down to Barebones • kiee e li r rlsoile as a living kind of intellect, from the r et tt to the loweshad felt •the necessity of accom 'oetiu:ng t he e ., great work; 'doing a work, which both • °f • Parliament, in 1816, in an unanimous • ; dela recommended Should be done without th e P. and .which the great criminal law reformer, :1Y able of the present day, had alone been 4 7: 1 1 - ahhit to accomplish, and who had said that high on, and large official influence, was chiefly to troPelzed because it enabled thoSe who- ssessed them to . so ! 11 Icheicts is these.—(Hear, hear.) ,The subject was /mPor tant that. he would not apologise for having de tsaeied.them, but would beg of them to give the Bill a l:lueleTaidmininigtt'eientioprdstearirst.hat it might be referred to a ' The •. e. e esoR D bt ee- CHANCELLOR would not then follow warned Friend' th roug h his able, eloquent, and com ' Prelse • nsive speech; he thought the Bill ought to be read eeee e 4 to die, .til#e• The Commissioners had been required eet their attention -Ist; to a digest of the statute 2d i eto eseonsolidatioamf-the common law, as it re-, ‘. 17 - 1 14 , ed the . criminal jurisprudence of the kingdom ; d, .to consider the expediency of combining Zi a yikttlelnto ode statute. They had considered it ex "vre__444teeo tie do, and th a t was t h e f oun da t i on of 'the eeetit Bill. There could be no doubt as to the ex . i d in, le in n a er sta or t t u h te at is p w ar i t of the Bill which digested the and repealed those contradictor . i . Z e Labs,olete . enactmenta which were a disgrace to the y th...,in,:ge.iplooesoantt,dbruutlewsiothf commont ega r d to la a w, consolidation of the. he had thought it • . _lit'ttuty to !make inquiries of persons employed in the , ,ilZl:l as stration -of justice upon that point, and the ques (me of so much doubt and difficulty that he • Ahould advise their Lordships to pause before adopting those suggestions. The principles by which the common ' e e v ; t e was at present admini s t ere d were d er i ve d f rom the e. 1 %00h% and were applied by the judges to the circum :ii!Aceg of various cases as they came before them. Yow. it required much consideration before he could consent to sul.vcrt such a system, and substitute in its place fixed and invariable vales. Ile must be satisfied that those rules were so comprehensive as to embrace the whole of the principles of the system which it was intended to subvert. He be lieved his Noble and Learned Friend would not admit the policy of abolishing the system, unless he were satisfied upon that point. Ile did not think that much benefit would be derived from sending the Bill to a Select Com. mittee up stairs. He would advise his Noble Friend to have the Bill read a second time—to let it stand over — and early next session to have it re-produced. In the meantime, the Government would devote its attention to the subject, and persons would be employed, he hoped with the concurrence and co-operation of his Noble Friend—(" Hear, hear," from Lord Brougham)—to go through all the details, so that the country should have a sufficient guarantee that the rules would be comprehensive enough to embrace every case which it was intended .they should meet. An other reason why he wished for delay was, that the Commissioners were at this moment employed in examining a very important branch of this subject, he meant that which related to trial and procedure. In a short time they would have completed their labours, and the result would be that in the same measure they might be able to consolidate forms of proceeding—a most important branch of the subject. Ile certainly thought the Bill was well entitled to be read a second time, for it was highly desirable that they should have a digest of the statute criminal law. Lord DENNIAN expressed his concurrence in what had fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend. There was one -object, however, of his Noble and Learned Friend's Bill which he thought ought to be accomplished without delay—he meant the repeal of those obsolete and barbarous laws, the continuance of which was a disgrace to the criminal code, and he trusted that what had fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack would not prevent any Noble Lord, nor any Member of the other -House of Parliament from introducing measures for the repeal of those laws. A case, had been alluded to in which a magistrate had been called upon to execute a law which ought at once to be repealed. A Noble Lord had also brought forward the case of the laws relating to forestalling and vegrating—that was an important exam ple of evil legislation: Mr. Burke, in 1773, had brought in .a Bill which was supposed to have swept away all those absurdities ; still it appeared there was common law enough left to punish any one carrying on trade in the way trade was usually carried on, as though he were guilty of a misdemeanour. The N oble Lo r d's Bill ouldalso do away with those enactments which subjected those persons most w4justly to punishment who departed from the established religiou of the country—laws which the great majority of mankind did not know were in existence, and of which those who were the most ig norant were the most likely t. - ) suffer by their execu , tion. - He was pleased to find that the attention of the Legislature had been directed to the consolidation and simplification of the criminal code. He was a little afraid, however, that their Lordships might be misled into the idea that they were now applying a most effec tual remedy to a very great evil. Ilis Noble and Learned Friend bad alluded to the great accumulation of law reporti. Parliament itself had been accessory in some degree to that accumulation. It had passed a vast number of new laws of late years, in a great proportion of which. the construction was by no means easy, and the interpretation anything but clear, and certainly of late years the judgments of the Courts had been reported much more fully and much more accurately than they had been formerly.. ,But the decisions on questions re lating to criminal law formed the smallest portion of this accumulation. However, he considered that the passing of this Bill would be a great public good, and would remedy a pressing evil, by -sweeping away from the Statute-book those dreadful, scandalous, and oppressive enactments, which would disgrace the law of the present day. He considered it his duty 0 state that, in his opinion, their Lordships and the coun try owed a debt to the Commissioners who had devoted so much time and so much labour to the improvement of the law of their country, and he considered that the pub-; lication of the law in this manner, digested under dif ferent heads, would be of the greatest use, not only to those who were called upon to administer the law, but to all who had to 'obey it. He could not conclude .with out expressing a deep sense- of gratitude towards the Commissioners who - had been engaged in this investi gation. Lord CAMPBELL thought it was a disgrace to this country that they could not refer, through the medium of chapters and sections, to the particular crimes and punishments attached to them. This was a matter of great importance, not alone with respect to the statute law, but also akregarded the common law. But still, he thought his Noble and Learned Friend near him (Lord Brougham) had overstated the existing evils ; for the defeerwas; - that they wete continually- multiplying, the laws until at length they became involved in •obscurity. In France. cveryprovince 'had had separate and distinct laws, but that was done away with, much to the benWit of the- country:, .by the Code Napoleon. As an illustra tion of his point, he would ash his Noble and Learsied Friend, what could be more essential than to bave a legal definition of the word conspiracy? He agreed with his Noble and Learned -Friend.who had just sat down as to the merits of the Commissioners. He certainly- did think that this 'was a measure which should be brought ! in upon the responsibility of the Government alone. After a few 'words from Lord - BROUGHAM in 'ex planation, The LORD CHANCELLOItsaidhe thought it would be as well if tbe,matter rested with the Cominissioners, who had the best opportunities of becoming conversant with the bearings of the case. No persons could possibly have discharged a difficult and arduous duty more effec tually than they did. • • The Bill was then read a second time,- and their Lordshipauclj owned. counties, the regulation - of the boundaries of boroughs and A RT-UNION S. Mr. WYSE gave notice that on Wednesday next e should move for a Select l'emmittee on the subject of Art-Unions. FACTORIES BILL. Lord C. MANNERS presented a petition from Tenlib in favour of a Ten Hours Bill. PRIVILEGE.—THE BRIDPORT PETITION. Mr. B. COCHRANE rose to state to the Hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford) the result of a communication he had received from Bridport in reference to the petition. He had requested the names of those who wore supposed to have signed the petition, to be forwarded to him, this had been done ; and it was distinctly stated that they were totally opposed to the prayer of the petition. He would read to the House the letter he had re ceived. It stated that Mr. Crawford had presented a petition on the Bth of March, 1844, purporting to be from the inhabitants of Bridport, praying that the supplies for the army and navy might be stopped till the grievances of the people were redressed. The persons who signed the letter, stated that they denied having ever signed the petition, or having authorised, any person to sign it on their behalf, as the senti ments entertained were contraryto their opinions. They requested him (Mr. Cochrane) to bring the matter before the House. He did not know that it was of sufficient importance to do so, but he was bound to consult the wishes of his constituents. Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that he was now pre pared to give the Hon. Gentleman some further in formation on the subject. He had that morning received a letter from a gentleman named Northwell, who wrote to him in consequence of what had taken place in the House on the subject. That gentleman stated that he got up and forwarded the petition ; he stated that he himself had witnessed the greater number of the signatures, but that a person was employed to carry about the petition, who was not at present in the borough ; he said he would make every inquiry on the subject, but was not aware of any person having signed the petition for another. With regard to himself, he thought the Hon. Gentleman op posite was imposing too much on Members when he said they should inquire into the names of those who sent petitions to them. It would be impossible for him to inquire into the names of those who signed the petitions sent to him ; but at the same time he was anxious that the petitions he presented should be in= vestigated. WALES. Colonel WOOD wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department when it was the intention of the Govern, ment to originate any Bill founded upon the report of the Commission which sat last year in Wales ? Sir J. GRAHAM said a Bill was in course of preparation, founded on the report of the Commissioners ; it was already in an advanced stage, and he hoped to introduce it next week. THE FACTORIES BILL.—MR. LIDDELL. Mr. LIDDELL said, however reluctant he was to take up the time of the House on a personal matter, yet he found himself so sharply attacked in the newspapers of that day—(Great laughter)— for a crime of which he was supposed to have been guilty, that he must take that opportunity of setting himself right, in a few words, with the House and with the public.—(Laughter.) In the columns of the •Times, he was asked if he could pos sibly be aware of the baseness of his conduct (Great laughter)—and the Morning Herald said that he bad not only made shipwreck of his own character, but also of that of his party.—(Roars of laughter from the Opposition benches.) It was all very well fer Hon. Gentlemen to laugh ; but it must be recollected that these newspapers exercised a considerable in fluence over the public mind—(Hear, hear)—and those were rather hard words to apply to a Mem ber of that House, who gave a perfectly conscientious and independent vote.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to take that opportunity of repeating what he had stated at the outset of the observations which he made on Friday last, that during the whole of the discussion which had taken place on that subject pre vious to that evening, he had never on any one occa sion, either by his vote or his language, given sty person the slightest encouragement to suppose that he would support the proposition of a Ten Hours' Bill. ADJOURNED DEBATE--FACTORIES BILL. On the Order of the Day for resuming the ad journed debate on this Bill being read, Mr. M. MILNES said, that if he had been aware that any other Hon. Member wished to adjourn the debate, he would not have trespassed on the attention of the House on a question which had already been sufficiently debated. He desired, how ever, -to have an opportunity of expressing to her Majesty's Government his regret for the words which he had used on a former occasion, in the heat of debate, and which, upon calm reflection, he thought were disrespectful. As far as those words were disrespectful, he begged to offer to her Majesty's Goiernment, and particu larly to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, the most ample apology. He was also most anxious to express to the House his adherence to a phrase which fell from ]aim on a former occasion, a phrase by which, grave as it was, he was prepared to stand to—he meant the phrase, " The national guilt of the unrestricted factory system." lie would ask the House to remember the words which were used by his Right Hon. Friend the late President of the Board of Trade, the Hon. Member for Taunton, who told them that, if their principles were just, they had incurred ,great national guilt b not en forcing them sooner. He would ask any on. Mem ber of that House who was familiar with foreign countries, whether the English factory system was • not regarded by the whole of Europe as a great evil? He would ask whether, in return-for all the obloquy which u e cast on America for her slavery, we were not told - to . look to our fa c t or y s y s tem at home, and to get rid of our white slavery, before we reproached them for their black slavery ? There might be, in that reproach, much jealousy of England and spite towards our commercial great ness. There was a time when our commer cial interests were represented as ' the factory system now was. Even the poet Cowper employed his talents to render our commerce odious. It was true that the cause of all that obloquy was our dealings in the slave trade, and did - they - not remember that when some of the best men of the country were labouring to procuarregutmheentasboalnitdionstaof that • trade, they were met b y tistics to prove that all the great interests involved in our commerce would be destroyed. The same arguments were now used against the abridgment of children's labour in the factories, but he could not be lieve that they would not prove equ ally Shouldthat House, which voted 20,000,000/. of the moe ney of the country to procure the abolition o f slaver y unfoundd. in our own colonies, and in doing so risked the security of the great - and important West India in terest—should they hesitate to abolish every trace of slavery at home? •But:what was slavery ? -It was when a human being held his life at the will of another. Now what was life ? It was the living hour—it was the power of religious instruction and moral educa tion ; this it was shat constituted the difference be tween the man and the slave. It became, them, there fore, to remove the evils that were existing in factories with the same earnestness as they had set about re moving slavery. His Noble Friend had brought this question forward, because it was impossible by any other . means that education could be given to the young in factories. They might do all they could to Ore education and recreation ; but if they continued the system that existed with respect to young people in - factories they never could derive any benefit.—(Hear; hear.) It was said that labour alone was the property of the poor man ; he denied that—he had a property as well as others in the bless ings of education and of life. The Hon. Member, having adverted to several of the, cases which had been quoted on Friday night by the President of the Board of Trade, observed that he con sidered that the Right Hon. Baronet might as well Set up 'every tenth day as the Sabbath, as he might speak in favour of this measure. He considered his Noble Friend had made out an a priori case, and he believed no one, with the exception of the Hon. Baronet, the Member for the Tower Hamlets, was of opinion that the factories in this country were an Arcadia. It was a pity they were not so. Every one had agreed that, supposing wages were not diminished, there would be an advantage in the women and children of the working classes having their two hours each day. They had been met by the declarations of the unadvised ability of interfering, but that abstract question had been disposed of for ever, by the enormous majority of that House. The principle of protection had been admitted, and the question was how far it should go. It had, been asked why they should interfere in this subject and not elsewhere. They were bound tointerfere because they had the power, and with the power in: curred the responsibility. All legislation consisted of interference. He instanced the late interference with the operation of Art-Unions, and the stopping of the old system of lotteries. Again, the very violent, but very proper interference of the police the other night with the gaming-houses at the West-end. Was not that an interference with labour ?—(Great laughter.) It was an interference with policy if not with labour. In the present ease • it - was the people who called on them to interfere. With respect to the effect of inter., ference on wages, he understood that one of the largest firms existing in England 'had come to the conclusion that they could work their machinery sixteen hours a day by two relays of men of eight .hours each, and that they would be enabled to make the same profits as they now did, and to give the same wages for 0414 ho4ra' labour as they now did f o r tw e l ve. Tie) manufacturers might at first he ttzi pay the same amount of wages when the time was re, (laced, but be believed they would 60 so 14 the end; andthe laboiders MVO the+eliFs "icrellins - r le - chance the reduction of wages. If lie had studied political economy at all—(A. laugh)—ha knew of how much importance it was to ascertain the limits of the subject, and that there were some questions to which it was inapplicable. If a reduction of two hours took place, itiwould he of little use to the labourers if means were not devised by which they might spend them profitably; and he was confident that the eminent maintalacturers of the country—such men as the Mar shells, the Gregs, the Ashtons—would find - a means of making it profitable to them. The importance of the foreign market had been dwelt upon, but from the improvements which were every day taking place in ma-Aiinery, and the facilities which were af forded for its exportation, it would be impos sible for them to hold the exclusive market of the world. If the Government thought it of such importance, why did they not take off the duty on raw cotton ? The Covernment had placed themselves in a wrong position before the country with regard to this measure. They were accused of inhumanity, and want of feeling towards the working classes, but how much was this at variance with the great provisions of the present Bill ? By taking a different course, they might have avoided placing themselves in such a position. Protection to the factory worker was now equivalent to a Ten Hours' Bill, and a Ten Hours' Bill they declared they would have. Petitions had been presented to that House against such a me:. sure by 360 masters. What must be the feelings of the workmen towards those 360 masters who petitioned against them ? The Government declared they had gone car enough, and would not go any further. It would have been better for the Government to withdraw the Factories Bill than refuse to go further. But they knew the necessity for having this Factories Bill ; they knew that all the assertions about non interference were unmeaning and vague, and that a Factories Bill was as necessary for the country as any Bill which could be brought before , the House. Believing, confidently, therefore, in the successful result of this measure, whether then or at some future period ; and agreeing with the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland that the people of England had never determined to have any great measure of a social or political nature which they did not ultimately gain, he hailed this ' Bill as the harbinger of a better system of legislation than had hitherto prevailed ; he hailed. that confusion of parties which they then witnessed as something better than the banding of Honourable Mem bers for the purpose of misrepresenting their opponents. •He saw banded together on that occasion a large body , of men, who were more regardful of the social interests of the people than of any political consequences. He did be lieve that that Bill would lead to many im portant results. He did believe that if, on the question of the corn-laws, it were distinctly made out that the repeal of those laws would be for the benefit of the mass of the people, the corn-laws would be repealed.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.) He believed that that and all other great social questions which came before them would have a better chance of coming within the dominion of argu ment, and that the people would repose in that House such confidence as had never been reposed in it since the time of the Reform Bill. There was one other subject upon which he would touch very lightly, on account of its delicacy. Some Hon. Members had declared their intention of voting that night differently from what they had voted on other occasions. He was not going to make himself their censor ; but he implored them to remember that in the opinion of the whole country they would for the future be marked men, and that the factory question would heneeforth be regarded in con nexion with their names.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government had told them that three months hence all those Hon. Members who upbtaided her Majesty's Government with their obstinacy would admire ther firm ness, and applaud their consistency. Now he believed that her Majesty's Government would reemrd with more respect those Majesty ' s Gentlemen who held fast to their purposes, and maintained_ their principles, than those who, for the mere sake of saving them from some, momentary inconvenience, should that night either remain away, or register their votes against the proposal which they had supported on former occasions. —(Hear, hear.) Mr. WARD said- the Hon. Gentl em an w ho had , had resorted to amost juSt addressed the con venientHouse- mode of settling this vexat a questio. He had assumed that an a pr iori case had been made out in favour of his Noble Friend's Bill. He said that men on both sides agreed that if the Bill could be passed without reducing the remuneration of labour, or diminishing the wealth of the country, it was most desirable that it should be passed. - Why that was a truism in which Members on both sides of the House concurred; but the question was, whe ther- the proposed remedy would not aggravate the evil? The Honourable Gentleman said the question of adult labour had been settled by a majority of that House. Why the House had formerly decided that a pound note and a shilling were worth 275. It had for merly settled the wages of tailors at 2s. s;d. under or dinary circumstances, and ss. 7d. in cases of mourning. But in six years this was repudiated as in jurious to the interests of all. The Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Milnes) justified his ar dent desire to interfere, because the House had the power. But was it not necessary to look to the right before they exercised the power—(Hear)— and ought they not to look also to the probable con sequences ?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman said that political economy was a very ill-used science _:-that feW understood the proper limits within which it should be restrained. He knew that this ques tion no longer admitted of going much into detail. The House was tired of it ; and for that reason, on a former n ight, he was restained from replying to the arguments on both sides of the House, although he had much pro vocation to do so. His Hon. Friend the Member for Weymouth had reproached the political philosophers as c old-blooded theorists who treated men as if they were mere machines, or as pieces of wood upon a skittle-board, to be knocked clown as if they had no sense or feeling. --(Laughter.) The Hon. M em ber for Nottingham said b in f avour o f t h e Bill, b u t now h e came round d d with him (M r; Ward), being convinced, that he a threen ha ytoitm long ees chimney s an d political economy, and voted as he said, of his argument. That showed that he voted first, and reflected afterwards.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman always ridiculed the theorists, but what4as theory, after all. but to consider, before you do any thing, what its effects might be-?—(Hear, hear.) But h e had observed that those f r i en d s o f humanity ne ver car ried their principles bey on d t h e p o i n t where they began to affect their own interests. Now, what was the best, aid first best thing to be done, for the working classes— was it not to give them food ?--(Hear, hear.) Ba the moment any attempt' was made to render food cheap and abundant, some o ne or ot h er o f those friends of hu manity stood up and said, N o , no, we cannot allow that to be touched." His Hon. Friend the Member for Weymouth (Mr. Bernal) exclaimed, when they proposed to give the working classes cheap sugar, "Oh no, I am connected with the ,West Indies, and I cannot allow never t : he osatiiide side. that."—(A laugh.) - I Mr. i 13 W E A R R N D A I r - SO! on of the House, they were met by the cry, "Agriculture must be protected,' when they attempted to give Cheap and abundanticorn to the people.-:-(c ke en. . ) On a former occasion he had accused the Noble Lord (Ashley) in rather strong berms . of .misrepresentations a n d exag geration, not that ex aggeration was his 'intention, but because the evi dence from • which he quoted was contradititory; and the Noble Lorrt naturally enough read the evidence that was most'in favour of his own views. Nothing could be more contradictory than the evidence of clergy men, physicians, and lawyers. That was not to be won dered at ; for you can prove almost anything by getting up a commission, and allowing a few clever physiCians, clergymen, and lawyers to manage it. There was no thing that could not be proved by a commission Of in quiry. He remembered that one medical man proved that the tailors were, as a body; liable to nearly all the diseases that could afflict humanity ; yet the tailors them selves being indignant, proved that, as a body, they wete remarkably active, fond of athletic giunes, and furnished one of the finest bodies of men to the army.—(Hear, hear.) ' Other trades were treated in the same manner . ; all were found to be liable to some peculiar maladies, and he believed the healthiest were stated to be slaughter house men and tallow welters.—(Laughter.) This showed they ought sometimes to distrust these reports. They ought not to do anything to disgat 'men with labour. He was far from' wishing that the condition of the people should not be improved, and he believed it was capable of improvement ; but it was by ameliorations of their fiscal system, more in the power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer than a ten hours' clause in an Act of Parliament. Fac tory labour must be compared with that of other classes, and it would then be found that there were other classes which had still stronger claims to protection. There were the female nailers of Sedgeley, and the young late makers of Buckinghamshire. Then let them look at what was doiug in this town ; look at Bethnal-green, at St. Giles's, and other places ; look at the maids of all work of the metropolis, who worked more than fourteen hours a-day, and who had not the Sunday, which the 'factory labourers enjoyed. He called the present interference a blind and blundering benevolence. The Noble Lord the Member for Dorset had only on Friday addressed him self to the commercial view of the subject, and what was his argument ? He admitted there would be a fall in the production and wages. But he said the loss in the amount produced would be made up from the less amount of coal, and oil, and tallow, which wotild be re quired. But, would not this affect the coal Airoducers ofthe north ? Would it not affect the price of their woollen manufacturers in the American market if, as would be the case, less cotton would be used in ten hours than in twelve ? It, would have an effect oa the shopkeeper and ghipowopr, and on every person employe(' in conveying the staple articles of the country from one part of it. to another. It was said that the workmen were willing to risk the fall of wages. He believed that point had never' been put fairly before them. The clergy had not put it be fore them. Dr. Hook represented , that the country would be an Arcadia. The only person who put the question before them in a proper light was the Rev. Mr, 4 A tiy, re ptop of Nu e wlfoye e4epilio Ntto ths,) ilulvept he would read; (The Hon, Gentlemen then re ad the letter.) The general feeling of the working dove was, that if they worked less they would get more, that they had nothing to do but to make what was cheap dear to secure better wages. They reversed the rule upon which the country hal been acting for the last him tired years. He believed that they themselves would be the first to suffer—first in their wage 3, afterwards in the increased price of everything which they had to purchase, and lastly through the shock which would be given to forcing a trade. The lion. Member fur Liskeard complimented the Noble Lord on the caution displayed in his proposal. He said that nothing could be easier than for them to retrace their steps. Why, he believed there was hardly an in stance in the commercial history of this country in which a lost trade . had . been recovered. He was much more inclined to say, with the Hon. Member fur Pontefract, that the Noble Lord and those who supported him, had lit a candle in the country, and he was glad that that House had the power to put an extinguisher upon it. He could not agree with the Noble Lord the. Member for Sunderland, that the Government had acted in a despo tic manner by refusing to take on themselves the respon sibility of a measure which they disapproved. He thought they had acted in a most constitutional, upright, and honourable manner; they had certainly greegly raised themselves in his estimation by the cours., they had pur sued. There never was a question in which the feelings and passions of the people were more deeply interested, or more easily brought into energetic and .vehement action. lie trusted the present discussion would lead to the adoption of free-trade principles, for he felt con virwel, that when these principles were brought into practical operation, when England would be the cheap est as well as the most productive country in the world —when food was abundant, and at a moderate price— no danger noel be apprehended from foreign competi tion; and the operative would care little whether it was a Ten Hours' or a Twelve Hours' Bill that was passed through that House.—(Cheers.) . Mr. M'GEACIIY said he considered this a very important question. He did not consider the arguments of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department, however specious and plausible they might have been, were based on just principles, for the Right Hon. Baronet's argument, if good for any thing, showed.the propriety of non-interference with la bour, whereas the Right Hon. Baronet's policy had a di rectly contrary effect. He (Mr. M'G.) visited several of the factory districts in company with Mr. Horner, and put several questions to factory labourers; but the substance of the questions was this : Which would you prefer, 12s. a-week, and work twelve hours daily ; or have 10.4. a-week, and work ten hours daily ? The general answer was a preference for the dipaieished pay and the dimi nished hours of labour. A weaver, aged 32, when asked the 'question, said he preferred the smaller wages and the lighter work ; for, said he, what I earn by the extra hours I pay in doctor's bills.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Another operative, aged 24, a dresser, had six children, three of whom could not work. lie said he had talked over the matter with his wife, and they preferred lower wages and less work. The lion s's'entleman quoted the opinions of several operatives, all of which were in favour of the short hours and the short wages. Amongst others, that of a young woman, who was blind of an eye., and who supported an aged mother, and she preferred shorter hours of labour, that she might have an opportunity of going to church oftener. Really (said the lion. Gentleman), a much higher tone of philosophy prevails among the humble classes in the manufacturing districts than is generally supposed. In short he came back from the manufacturing districts with the most favourable impression of the intelligence and right mindedness of the inhabitants. lie had been assured that young men and women, even to the ages of twenty five and thirty, were constant attendants of Sunday schools, and they preferred being pupils to teachers that they might have greater opportunities of improvement. There certainly was great difference of opinion among the master manufacturers regarding the propriety of diminishing the hours of labour, but he must say, in justice to this class, that there was a strong feel ing in favour of a diminution in the hours of toil prevalent amongst them. This country had already voted twenty millions for the emancipation of the slaves, and the Government went so far on that occasion as to regulate the hours of labour. Why, then, hesitate so much about putting the same principle into operation in the manufacturing districts, where it was so imperatively required? He trusted, as he believed that there was a, growing disposition in favour of the poor," that the desire would increase, to carry out, without reference to party feelings, measures of amelio ration for the moral, physical, and intellectual condition of the people. Mr. M. SUTTON said the lion. Member who had just sat down had correctly. stated the answers of the operatives ; but he had not stated that by far the greater number of the operatives, seventy out of a hundred, in fact, said they would not willingly bear a diminution in their wage. He contended that the operatives them selves gave but a qualified and partial support to the proposition of the Noble Lord. . Whey believed, also, that prices would rise by the limitation of the hours of labour. He, however, believed that this was a result which could not take place. The impossibility of wages rising had been already fully established ; the proposition was a diminu tion of the productive. power of the country, and to such an extent, that the whole reduction of the exports it would cause, would amount to-4,500,000/,, or nearly one twelfth of the whole export trade of the country. Would any one tell hiria, then, that this was but an alteration in the details of the system? With respect to the opera ' tives themselves, it would have a most detrimental effect on them, as it would subtract from_their wages no less than 857,140 L a year. The evil effect of this would not stop with them, it would extend to the shopkeepers, and the whole trade of the manufacturing districts. He was at a loss to conceive how the misery and destitution of the manufacturing classes could be alleged as a reason for the diminution of - their wages. It should be remem bered that the distress of 1841 was not caused by over work, but by the want of work and reduced wages. A proposition was once made in that House, by the lion. Member for linaresborough, for granting a million of money to the manufacturing labourers ; yet this was a sum not much exceeding what it was now proposed to take from them.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. B. HAWES said, the arguments of the Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, had the common vice of all the arguments on that side of the question. The same arguments -would apply against all Legis lative interference whatever. The question he had to ask himself was this—was the present a practicable measure ?—what were the evils that must necessarily flow from it ?—and were there any benefits to be de rived from it ? He did not look on it as a single, isolated measure, but as one of many measures which this House must be prepared to dis cuss and perhaps, ultimately to pass.—(Hear.) He had no doubt they might with perfect security limit the hours of labour if they had a free trade and a fair field for their industry.—(Hear, hear.) He did not look on this question as an isolated one. Perhaps it could not be Justified in itself, but lie was sure that 1 o ther measures must flow from it which would render the evils expected as the consequence of it, Vain and nugatory. The object of political economy was to in crease the wealth of a nation; but legislation must take the morals of a nation as its object. (The Hon. Gentle ' man then quoted Mr. Mills to show that neither body nor mind could be engaged in labour for too long a period without affecting the morals or happiness of a people.) He admitted difficulties surrounded the subject on all sides. Great evils had been predicted from the appointment of inspectors, and it was said the manufacturers would give up their establishments in consequence of the supervision to which they were subjected, but none of those evils had been verified. No person liked to be restricted.—(lronical cheers.) Great stress had been laid on the reduction of wages which would follow from this measure. He admitted that such reduction would take place, but it was in the power of the House to more than compensate them for that loss, as he would prove. The Mayor of Manchester had published a statement which showed what pressed Most on the means of the working classes. Those articles which took most of their wages from them were bread and meat, butter, and potatoes.—(Hear.) If the taxes on those articles were removed they would save 22 per cent, of their earnings. He would therefore make this measure a lever, by which to effect much greater good, and he had no hesitation in so making use of it. The mother of the family would be able to devote more of her time to her domestic concerns; and this, also, would be a saving to the working man. A great deal had been said of the loss of the foreign market. Why the same thing had been predicted before, but their foreign trade had not suffered. On the contrary, the foreign trade was never so ex tensive. There was no fear of their foreign trade if they would only remove those restrictions which at present confined and restricted it. There was no in stance in which restrictions from trade had been re moved that the trade of the country did not immediately spring forward. Such had been the effect of the policy Of Mr. Huskisson, and the same would prove true now. He could give tke Right Hon. Gentleman data, which he would do well if he followed. This was not a ques tion altogether of a Ten Hours' Bill, because the propo sition of the Noble Lord was equivalent to an Eleven Hours' Bill; but he was not sorry that it was treated as a Ten Hours' Bill. Looking to the measure, not as an isolated one, as he before said, but looking at it as one that must be followed by other measures, believing that it would improve the moral and intellectual condition of the work ing classes—that the trade and manufactures of the country would not be placed in danger if the Govan"- ment followed a sound. and wise course of legislation With regard to corn and sugar—that it would tend to lessen the hostility of the people to the social state (they might recollect the strike which took place a short time ago, and though the disturbances 14 been put down, the discontent of the people still remained) ; looking to all these things, he thought that an opportunity was now afforded byavhich they might effect great social good, and reconcile the affections of the working classes. He was convinced in his own mind, that whatever evils might be supposed likely to 'flow from this limitation of the period of labour, it they would honestly and sin cerely set about the social improvement of the people, those evils would be as nothing compared with the be. nefits which would result from the change. Lord POLLINGTON said, that on every occasion hitherto he had given his support to proposals salilal , to those of the Noble Lord ; but when IN found a Govern ment Which had never shown a disposition to force their own lane e gaiust the opinions of the House, he p h a d been perplexed in t he extreme, During the E as t er i ,a o se he had analysed the majority, and •be had found that the Members of the great commercial towns and cities of the empire, and the Members for Yorkshire, had supported the Bill. . Medical men had informed hi m that the period of ten hours was as much as the sinews could safely sustain.—(Hear.) It had been plainly intimated by the Right Ilaa. Ila;. ronet (Sir J. Graham) tht if the Noblii torTs proper mv l weve carr4,4, Al* eortilaws nAust be repealed. Then he tlid say that if t,4 ccirn..l4w, did rest on so rotten a foundation, he should be the first man-in the House to yotc fur their repeat--(Cheers iliora the Opposition.) Ire had never supported the corn-laws, either in or out of the House, except as a necessary protection to native agriculture ; and he could not forget that the first claim upon their Fotection was from the weak end helpless.— (Chears.) He could assure the Noble Lord, that how. ever weak, he would find in hint a sincere advocate of the measure which he had proposed. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that considering the im portance of the interest then at . stake he could not re concile it to his conscience not to say a few words by way of restating the reaso n s which would influence his vote. He had listened with great attention to the de bates on that subject, and with special attention to the speech of the Hon. Member for Lambeth, believing that if he failed to convince him that his views were right, nothing' else could produce that result. But he con fessed that he was a good deal surprised at the ground takeh by his Ron. Friend. What did his speech amount to? lie said that this measure, taken singly, was fraught with the most appalling ,danger ;. if. the II 'use were not prepared to follow up this measure by other great extensive changes, that this House must re sort to other measures to provide against a reduction of wages. He would yield to no man in a • desire to see the corn-laws of this country put upon, what he conceived to be, a sounder footing than they were at present, but he • shuddered at the prospect of a people thrown out of employment, and of all the , frightful results which so* great a change in the manufacturing system of this country would p ro duce.— (Ikar, hear.) Even if remedial measures were adopted, he doubted whether they were Justified in interfering by legislative enactment with the labour market.—(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen said it would. be all very well to oppose the ten hours' clause if they had never interfered with factory labour at all, but having interfered in certain particulars, the question was now only one of degree, and no evil consequence would result from extending the principle of interference. He believed that by their interference up to that point, they had done more good than harm— (Hear, hear)—but an interference so violent as that pro posed, had never yet been attempted; and he, for one, would not take upon himself the responsibility of voting for such an experiment.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed, he was astonished to hear Honourable Gentleman talk of this measure as an experiment, and argue that if the experiment proved a failure, they might easily retrace their steps. Did they really know what failure meant? —(Bear, hear.) Failure meant the loss of trading ; and foreign trade, once lost, was not easily recovered. — (Hear, hear.) Failure meant the want of employment— the demoralisation of the work-people. He entreated the -House, then, not to legislate on this subject in the spirit of experiment.—(Hear, hear.) It they were:sa tisfied that the change would be beneficial let them at once - yield to the Noble Lord's proposal,- but if they had any doubts on the subject, he entreated them to pause before they enacted measures from which - he believed there was no retreat.—(Hear, hear.) Much had been said in the course of those debates as to the effect which a Tea Hours' Bill would have Upon wages. He had, he confessed, a great distrust of all nice calculations on subjects of that kind ; yet- he , thought it was not difficult to foresee how this measure would act. He thought it had been demonstrated that the Noble Lord's reduction must, if not at once, progressively and cer tainly reduce wages. They were told that this question had been fairly put to the operatives, whether they would accept it even with the prospect of reducing wages. Now he did not believe that this ques tion had ever been .fairly stated to the opera tives.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. . Oastler, at a meeting held in Blackburn, told them he did not think the change would reducewages ; " but supposing it would," he asked, " were they, the men of Blackburn, willing to support the Bill ?" The reply was, " Yes, we are." Would any one say this was evidence as to what the feelings of the operatives would be in case a reduction took place ?—(Hear, hear.) He was afraid that the tendency of wages in this country was downwards. If they were dealing with a country in which they were buoyant and increasing, the case would, he admitted, be different. He believed that this question, if carried, would -not be confined to the facto ries. Ten hours' labour meant ten hours' sale of coal, ten hours' traffic upon the canals and railways ; and let him tell the country gentlemen it also meant ten hours' consumption of provisions and of flour. It. was said that in this country -we had arrived at an artificial state of society, which called for a new•course of legislation. He was not disposed to agree with that assertion. Ile was not disposed to displace from his library the works of Adam Smith, and to substitute for them those of Mr. Sadler and Mr. Oastler.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that in an artificial state of society it would be more dangerous to depart from sound principles than in the rudest state. —(Hear, hear.) It might be supposed from the state ments of the supporters of this measure, that women were never before subjected to toil, and that men were never taxed in their labour beyond their strength. But had they notread 'the beautiful lines of the Latin pet, . written IN° years ago ? • Sopitos sunhat ignes, - • Noctem adders open, eastum ut servare cubile Conjugis, et possit parvos educere nate% —(Hear, hear.) He was convinced that if they inter posed in the way proposed they would make matters worse- than they were.—(Hear, hear.) He doubted that the, measure was - so much desired among the working elassei as Was' represented. Ile was convinced it was not so much desired as was some } ears ago a measure regulating a minimum of wages.—(Hear.) He thought it should be the maxim of a wise legislator to act for the many rather than with the many ; and he believed that if this was carried the working classes themselves would be the first_ to turn round and accuse the Legislature of yielding to demands which were . founded in injustice and would end in disappointment. • Mr. STUART WORTLEY said that the delusion 'to which his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department had alluded, was occasioned in some part by the Right Hon. Baronet himself, who stated on his own authority, that the proposition of his Noble Friend Lord Ashley would not • have the good conse quences expected from it. He (Mr. W.) was unwilling to allow this debate to pass over without taking an op portunity of stating the reasons why he adhered to the course which he had already taken, although he felt pain in opp osing .a Government in which in other matters had the fullest confidence. But as he had arrived at a full conviction of the necessity for such a measure as was proposed by his Noble Friend, he must support him, at whatever sacrifice of his personal feelings. It was now forty-two years:since this subject was first brought under the consideration of Parliament, by a man well-known to the House and the country, the late Sir Robert Peel. At that time children were employed only as piecers, but since then they had been introduced to other and more hiborious departments, and women had been employed to such an extent, as to displace the men from their proper place in society, and . to lower their wages.' In other kinds of employment such as carpenters, masons, &c.—the men were employed only twelve hours a day, ineluding an hour and a htilf or two hours for refreshment. Why, then, should Chil dren and women be required to work a greater number of hours ?—(Hear, bear.) But in many cases where the children worked twelve hours, they did not reach home for two hours after their parents. But the fact was, that in Leeds and other places, some of the millowners had reduced the hours to eleven, and had found that by doing so' they actually got more work done thin when the time was twelve hours. He had himself presented a petition signed by 300 masters, in which they stated that twelve hours, with the deduction of two hours for rest and refreshment, was as much labour as children and women should be subjected to. When they saw that so many millowners could reduce their hours of labour from twelve to eleven, he thought it showed that to establish that as a standard of labour in mills would be attended with success. In Sheffield there had been a shortening of the hours of labour for the purpose of equalising the work, and no bad results had ensued. He considered the Bill of the Noble Lord would have a great effect on the morals of the people in the manufacturing districts, and he would give it his support. , Mr. BRIGHT then rose to address the House. Al though it might be inconvenient that so much time should be taken up on this subject during the present session,. yet he thought that the House would come to the decision that no time had been wasted upon it as far as it affected the' well-being of the country. The House, he. WaS 'sure, wonld not make any lair to interfere with labour in factories, unless it was satisfied there was a necessity for it. hen the Noble Lord first brought the subject forward, it was clear to him the House could not legislate upon it, because he had placed the matter on the humanity view of the ques tion,, throwing out of sight altogether the commercial point of view of the question. He was sure it must be clear to every person that it would be useless to legis late for humanity alone. In his (Mr. Bright's) opinion the Noble Lord had made out no case for the inter ference of the House, because his statements had been based upon documents with which he had been furnished by. others, which contained most gross exagger:ir n to s not borne out by facts. The Noble Lord had the House a document . purporting to com an e . fro r m w a hioh e . operative delegates in Lancashire, a s d ir ou ed men b t y was and e i h g; ni nb c o o tt m o7 . 4 from eight of the principal mill owners in Lanc ashire. The first document to which he bad adverted coin head also been named e b d efor i menced with an attack upon Mr. Ashworth, of Bolton, stating that he was the foremost of the class of Lancashire m condition of the working cl asses in that part of the anu f ac t ure rs who objected to th e amelioration of the country. The House knew the character of that gen tleman too well to require of him a refutation of those statements, for that if it was necessary he might appeal to the Rev. B. Noel, to many Members of that House, and to the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire h i mse lf. But there was' no necessity that he should do as wentsdue ffi r nt a c e i tes partuf o n r d met nowt ow was resideds ow t h a a t a wt completeiht e was M oA s o. o s oa h o e t r t et w as sufficient for hun to say t hat when Mr. AshwOrth pl garden, with a great number of excellent cot tages. - -Now in the document that purported to come from the operative delegates ofthere iveLancashire, was a diagram, for the purpose ofshowing the the piece -makers had to walk, and that diagram can. veyed a rooa erroneous notion of what the faets were. If the Noble Lord had ever been in a mill, he must bo convinced' of its untruth. It' stated that they had to walk thirty-eight miles a day, which was impossible. The Noble toed had been invited to accompany Mr. Greg over his mill, but he diclined to do so unless in company with the delegate% and this Mr. Greg declined because these very persons had applied to lii> the most opprobrious epithets most undeservedly. Na 'employment was more advantageous to the workmen than those cOn nected with the power-loom in cotton factories in Lanca shire. lie bad no donlit the power-loom weavers had loss tell thavt the hand-loom weavers, With respect to the mill- Willers document, they had stated that which he (Mr. Bright) knew to be true. Seven of the millowners stated that the piece-maker walked _l6 miles. a . day, while one stated it was 20 miles ;- but as to 38 miles, it was impossible for any one to do so for days together. There were many other parts of the diagram that were equally 1.~~~~, and purposely-erroneous. There was onet hltdt - \v - ith respect to the operatives, that he was gla; *Tee, .anel that was, that - Honourable Gentlemen win itehnow what the opinions of the operatives were. e.o they petitioned -the House by millions, and wetly no notice of ; but now they were all importarir-L . -(teitia - hear.) The ,Noble Lord had not given a fair impres .sion to the House of the opinions of the operatives, nor hail an Hon.. Member who had addressed the House that night, who visited the factory districts, in com pany with Mr. Horner (Mr. M‘Geach i y). That Hon. Hon. Member should have stated that in at least one of, the mills he had visited, where there was a large num-• ber of operatives employed, by far the greater number of them repudiated the Ten Hours' Bill, if it would have the effect of lowering their wages. A great 'deal had been said about the opinions and feelings of the opera tives on this subject. •An extensive manufacturer, who' employed nearly 1,000 hands, asked his men if they were in favour Of the Ten Hours" Bill. One of them re plied he was. Then said the manufacturer to this man, work for ten hours and I will not disturb you. The man, replied that he did not like to work alone. Then said the manufacturer, let all those in the same room work . the same time with you, and yen may continue this for twelve months, and I will not disturb you'; or, if all the hands in the mill wish to try it they shall have my concurrence. This propositition was made on the 27th of the last month, but none of the operatives—not one in tbe mill of this manufacturer—had yet tried the ten hours' labour. Another manufacturer, at Bury, not only gave his men leave to work only ten hours, but actually stopped his engines when ten hours were done. He con tinued to do this for three days, at the expiration of which all his men told him they would turn out unless they were allowed to work twelve hours as usual.--• (Hen; hear.) Some Honourable Gentleman had said' that no delusion had been practised on the operatives, but he (Mr. Bright) had no hesitation in saying that a gross and cruel delusion had been prar tised upon them, and by men who, though not exactly employedby the Noble Lord, were yet connected with the mo - ement against the manufacturers. A meeting was held in Manchester, in Nov. 1833, and resolutions were passed at that meeting, which he would read to the House. But be must tell them who were the principal persons who attended these meetings, which were, for the most part; composed of operatives, who were the principal speakers, and who were the mem bers of the Committee. The Honourable Member for Oldham was one. The - first resolution regarded the formation of a society for assist ing the working classes in obtaining for eight hours' work a 'full day's pay ; and another resolution Was, calling upon the people to desist from petitioning Parliament in favour of a Ten Hours' Bill, unless wages for twelve hours would be given. The meeting was attended by Mr. Fielden, as he had already stated, by Messrs. Doherty, and Mr. Higgin botham. More names were affixed to the paper he had read to the House—James Turner, Philip Grant, and last, though not least, Robert Owen, Esq.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He did not quarrel with the Committee, or its resolutional but what he objected to was, that these men should go about the country representing to the working classes that, by legia- Wive enactments, the perhid of their toil- could be abridged. All that that House could do was, to seoure rights and pre vent wrongs. The fact was, the Noble Lord proposed fa shorten the tether twelve yards to ten, and better their wadi- Lion by narrowing their circumstances. The Monthly , Post told the farmers that if they grew three-fourths of the gross, they would get as much for it as for the whole crop ; and so it was, doubtless, under the operation of the present eorn laws. Thus it was with the Hon. Member for Oldham, who would only have ten pieces of cloth made instead of twelve, on the principle that the increased price of cloth would make np for the increased reduction. The Hon. Member did not con sider that increased price would be so disadvantageous to the community.' He did not charge the Noble Lord with employ bag those disreputable persons whom he had mentioned, but he feared the Noble" Lord had based many of his statements. for which he had given no authority, on their evidence. Seve ral books, too, had been published, containing the grossest ca lumnies nponthe manufacturers • and these books, it w a s sa id, had the sanction of the Noble ard. Why, some of those per sons had been actually employed to foment disturbances in the manufacturing districts. They got up petitions, and meetings, and cabals, among the workmen, and they raked up a variety of things, perverted statements, and sent these forward to the world as samples of the condition of the manufacturing dis tricts. Why this Doherty, to whom he had already alluded, had in the first instance obtained employment in 'Manchester on a forged certificate. Ho had been several times imprisoned—had been cencerned in the violent riots in 1818—he had been imprisoned for offences against the Excise laws—he had been before the . Magistrate forgiving a false name, and for being drunk and disorderly, and yet he would ask the Noble Lord whether this man had not actually received money from a certain Society in London, for the purpose of promoting the Ten Hours' Bill ? Then there was Mark Crabtree, another of those who attended the Manchester meeting, and who was an active promoter of the views of the Noble Lord. This Mark Crabtree:lid been brought before the Aylesbury Magistrate charged with stealing silver spoons and a salt cellar, the property of a publican in Aylesbury. This was on June the 26th, 1843; he described himself as a dyer and scourer, residing at 16, King-street. Long-acre, London. Ile admitted having taken the property, but said he was intoxicated when he did so, and that when sober be would have placed them again in the hands of the landlord. But who was it he sent for to give him a character? Why, Dr. Sleigh, and this gentleman stated that he had been intro duced to the prisoner by 'the Duke of Buckingham, and that the greatest confidence had been placed in him by the highest personages in the realm. The jury returned a verdict of guilty, but added " not with a felonious intent,"—( Great laughter. ) :They were sent to reconsider their verdict, and returned one of " acquittal." This man Crabtree, and a person named 'Turner, who stated that they were operatives, but were no operatives at all, met him (Mr. Bright) in the lobby of the House of Commons a few nights ago, told him they were delegates from the operatives of Lancashire, and requested him to support the Bill of the Noble Lord ; at the same asking him " What will the Northern Star say if you refuse?" He (Mr. Bright) did refuse, and, accordingly, a column of the filthiest abuse had been heaped upon him by that most infamous of monopolist papers the Northern Star. He had no hesitation in saying that for ten who were in favour of a Ten flours' Bill in the manufacturing districts there were 10,000 in favour of free tradeprinciples. After some farther observations the Hon. Member concluded by saying that the manufacturers of Lanca shire sought no favour from the Legislature—they would scorn to ask for any special reservation or exclusive regard to their interests; all they asked, then, was to take off those burdens which pressed so severely upon them—to at least equalise the burdens upon every class of the community, and not to make the poorest suffer to benefit the rich.—( Cheers. ) Lord ASHLEY explained. He had not said that in the weaving department the labour had been doubled by the im provements in machinery, but what he had said was, that within the last few years it had increased ten per cent. The House would decide whether himself or the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was the gross exaggerator. Mr. SHAW said he had no claim whatever to the attention of the House on this subject, and he would therefore not attempt to follow the Hon. Member for Durham ; but as he was about to give a vote against the Government upon this question, he would delay the House for a few moments while he explained his reasons for doing so. Upon the several divi sions which had taken place upon this subject, he had uni formly voted in favour of the ten hours' clause. - The question, as had before been stated, was one of degree, and not one of principle. The principle of interference had been acknowledged by the Government, and as She u w n as de the rt e h z e t s e e extent of question of the necessity of limitation had been conceded , thetli e taqtuwenstiwohniufh they for that should HouseH ouse considert u o greutu. cir cumstances, he felt constrained to persevere in the course which he had already taken. He did this reluctantly ; but be would remind the House of one sentence which had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury on a former occasion, which was, that he regretted the necessity of differing from some of his mast esteemed friends ; yet he was persuaded that they would appreciate his motives, and believe that he was acting from his conscientious convictions. He trusted, therefore, that the Right Hon. Baronet would extend the same feeling of indulgence to those who, on the present occasion, felt constrained to differ from him on this question. Mr. CHARLES WOOD did not believe that the proposi tion of the Noble Lord, if carried out, would have the effect anticipated by the Hon. Member for Knareaborough. On the contrary, he believed that the effect would be just the reverse, and that an ultimate and permanent reduction of wages would be the result. He would ask, what would be the effect of this mea -1 sure upon the poorer classes, if the prices of manufactures should rise? What had been the state of the manufacturing districts during the last two years ?—(llear, hear.) The distress in these districts had never been equalled in this country. The labourers then worked less than ten hours a day from a sheer want of work ; and yet, after such dreadful experience, would they attempt by legislation to bring about &return of such a state of things? He granted, for the sake of argument, that for short time the same amount of wages would be paid, but that amount would be divided amongst agreater number of labourers. That he contended was in point of fact a reduction of wages. There would also be a loss on capital ; a consi derable loss ut on the fixed capital of all existing interests, and th a t u by a re ductionmade up somehow or other. If it was not m ad e em ployments, or be sent abroad; and i f most regret the mea sure itu—hth e puarwteisanr to solemnly believed that those who w o uld of wages, capital would be . f tr w a a n g s efesrwreedretroepdouthceerd,hes ur e w themselves.oul db e those e wwas perfectly were improve the condition of the working classes, but it was for measure to show that it would improve reducing a their condition. Ile a. not believe that the those who supported th'sl. threeanclyastomdgo • tory reports - people to poverty woul d do anything towards improving their s t a t e , either moral, soci a l, or religious. The sanatory of the large towns showed that they were in a bad state ; bat the reducing the labourers to the verge of starvation would only tend to make them worse. He had no indisposition to promote every one of the ends the Hon. Gentleman who sup ported this measure imposed ; there wore o th er measures f or im proving the hea lth of the people, and bettering their dwellings ; and in these things the Legislature might properly interfere, if it was proved that they could not be effected by individual exertions. He was sorry that a difference of opinion had arises, but having the choice he must do what he thought would be the least evil of the two to the class he was the most anxious to serve, and he should basely betray his duty to them, if at any request he did that, which in his conscience he believed would be most prejudicial to them, and which would be destructive to the trade, the commerce, and the general commercial prosperity of the country. Mr. B. COCHRANE said that during the discussion of this subject—since it had been brought before the House—the Government had used every effort to insure a majority in fa vour of their proposition, and in furtherance of that bad got up a strong agitation in the country. He thought that agitation was but a poor means by which men were enabled to come to right conclusions. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Deputment had admitted the principle of interference with labour, when he proposed his twelve hours' restriction of labour. What had been the conduct t by any means a party question when it was first h i of her Majesty's Government in this case ? their consideration ; but the Right Hon. Baronet a d subs*. L t u l g w ht u under n quently made it one. He believed that her Majesty's . Govern ment would tea the necessity of not sacrificing principle upon such a question as the present. question; but, considering again to address the House on thi s fell that he would not be due &rota Sir R. PEEL was sorry that a se nse of dut y compelled hint its great importance , he state opinions. • whether they should, by legislative enactment, question was employed in factor? , labour to suspend compel all the machinery emp his duty conscientiously if he did not of violating principle which had been made against her Majose its operations for two hours every day. at was t he charge ty's Government? If such a violation occurred, let them be . at once frustrated in the present measure, but until that proof was distinctly established, he certainly could not appreciate the arguments of som e Hon. Members. He had come to the via tica of degree, n so far As the interference with labour went. They might have been' * Wrung ;in introducing any enactment which would have the effect of restraining or governing adult labour, but still that error was no justification of others. He would ask seriously, was it politic to limit labour to twelve hours ? Some Hoe. Gentlemen opposite had referred to the corn-laws, But what advantage was that in the present discus sion? They said that the corn-laws in England gave to foreign countries a vast advantage in the race of competition. Now. if a discussion were to arise on the question of the core-lawn, be MME Pw" t ~al. Icl . er ed so , o f ith DM St. he , ,av rsr 6 'not we pt. eel; h orss