The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-12 00:00:00

ion sid; (10' disapprove of." Was this a broad and permanent ground on scarcely one of which vvas carried out to its extreme length, 'which the Parliament could stand and refuse their consent to while all subsisted together in harmony, producing this measure ? What was the nature of the opposition to this the happini ss and we Mee of the people. Who that Bill ? Some of those who opposed it objected to -ny establish- recollected the struggle attendant on the Reform Bill, anent, whilst others entertained opinions exactly the reverse of and the arguments regarding popular rights which thin What permanence or stability of resistance could be ex- ! were then brought forward, but must be surprised petted from a lately of wen, son,e of whom were as wide apart to see how the apparent consequences to be drawn from the others as were the poles? Here was his Hon. Friend ; from these arguments, had been checked by the good sense the Member for the University of (Woad (Sir R. H. Inglis), and the good understanding of the people. He believed that who stood, as he himself, under different circumstances, and scarcely any person on either side of the House could have in a different condition of the country might have stood, advo- anticinated before and during that great constitutional eating the exclusive endowment of the Church of England— struggle, how rapidly the principles advanced dteing that time but if this Bill were rejected, amongst what companions would were checked in their action by the reflection of the sober he find himself?_-( Cheers.) But that was not all—for a large minded people of England. Ile did not bring this forward as Proportion of the rest of those who opposed the Bill, but who did a matter of controversy ; he took it !or granted, that to a great not go the 1-ngth of abjuring all endowments, altogether re- extent they were all agreed u, cn it as a matter of fact ; and, fused to fotareer his Hon. Friend in his support of the Church of at any rate, it was good for his purpose to this extent, that ,Englatati, and laid claim to an e qu a l en d o merit for all forms of it m us t rot be argued as if e ve r ythi ng apparent l y i nvolved in Protestants. Yes; opposition was one thing, but the csta. this measure must of necessity be carried into effect. Granted blishment of a broad, just, and permanent policy was another. that this was an important measure—granted that it was a great —(Cheers.) It was very easy to ferm a combination—he used Noon—that it might not have the effect of allaying agitatien— the word in no offensive sense—by an accidental conjure- still he believed that, upon the whole, the measure was called tion of those who differed on almost every subject, which might for by justice—that it was required by the state of the country; effect the immediate purpose in view; but when they came to and that he felt that there was no principle on Willa' he ask upon what principle a Government was to rule, or a people could take his stand in resisting it. He hoped, therefore, that to be governed, what answer could they give ?—( Lond cheers.) this measu r e of hi s Ri g ht H on. F r i end, notwithstanding the In this e a se , w h at answer wou l d his • Hon. Friend give to the great sacrifice of feeling and of prepossessions which it un people of Ireland ? When that question once presented itself, doubtedly called upon the people of England to make, would a new order of ideas was started, and fresh obstacles rose up to pass into a law, and would receive, if not the sanction, at least the mind in a frightful and gigantic form.— (Cheers. ) The the ccquiescence, of the country—that they would recollect the opponents of this measure ought to state to the Irish ',topic feelings of others as well as their own—that they would abate upon what principle they proposed to proceed. Did the oppo- somewhat of their claims in deference to the law which bound %hien to this Bill support any such principle as that for which the people of the country together, and that they would sacri his Honourable Frier d contended ? Del they propose to con- five what was agreeable to themselves in the hope of benefiting fine all endowment to the Church of England ?—( Hear, hear.) the country. He had no occasion to detain the House longer. There was notoriously a violation of that principle in a new case While lie regretted that he had been obliged to occupy their at every recurring year. It was not enough, he said, for them io tenion so long, he was deeply grateful to them fur the indulgence object to this or that. They must show some intelligible plan which they had extended to him. He would riot mix up with this of proceeding, on which they as ere to take th, it stand. One question any matter relating to hims If personally as an indi ginciple was the total abrogation of all religious endowment. victual. It would be a bad compliment to the House if he were That principle was supported neither by the House nor by the to mix up with a debate on interests so important matters so country ; and it would, consequently, be ridiculous to speak comparatively trivial as those which related to himself. He of that as the fixed principle of their conduct. He would rather wish that his present position might induce the W ould g dismiss that altog e ther. Then othe r s sa id b e li e f that he had formed an honest and impa r ti a l conc l us i on 4 lecognise the diff e r, nt forms of P ro t es t an ti sm , b u t exc l u d e w i t h regard to this measure, unbiassed by the prejudices of **Myer is in commuiow with the Church of Rome." This position. He believed their best vindication would be to leave esas not good in a constitutional er in a religious point of view. behind them words and acts which would convince posterity t fined and not unde rs t a nd w h a t was meant b y a t hi ng o f so urine- that they o f the p r es e nt day and generat i on h a d l a b oured, w i th and vague a meaning as that which they called Protes- fallible judgments but wi.h honest intentions, to consult the tantism. By this he meant to convey no reproach. He was best interests of those whose social welfare was committed to quite aware that Protestantism was a something quite definite their charge.—( The flight Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst is some minds. Ile knew that in the minds of many men it loud cheers.) was something more than a mere negation—that it was a sub- The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY rose with Mr. stantive reality, and definite embodiment of truth. But whe- D'lsrach ; there were loud cries for the latter, but he gave riper this was so or not, it was clear that the constitution did way, and the Noble Earl proceeded to congratulate the Right t rog that which was called Prote,tantism. It was true Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), after the speech of the Right i llat the Constitution required the Sovereign to be a Protes- Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, at now having the but the word there used was made definite by the Act of support of every man who was worthy of the name of a states flit.e l atnent ; for the Act required that the Sovereign should be man.--( Hear, bear.) The lion. Gentleman the Member for coin :sannicant of the Church of England. So he said that he Dublin had alluded to the want of Catholic petitions for this "Tald not understand, and that the Constitution did not recog- measure. The Hon. Gentleman had made a long speech, cha lik'e) that which was so vague, n o ind e fi n it e , th a t w hi c h fl oate d ractsr i se d b y amen i ty of manner, and by language of which no and varied every day. Was it not impossible, then, for the op- one could have any right to complain ; but he wished to tell trents of the measure to take th e i r s t an d upon P ro t estant i sm ? t h e H on. G ent l eman that what affected the Catholics of Ire. would not open any religious discussion, but what he in- land affected also the Catholics of England—(Cheers)—that st ated upon was, the difficulty of making this ground a clear, the C a th o li cs o f E ng l an d re j o i ce d i n any good that was offered I ntelligibl e , substantive basis of public poli c y. He under- to Ireland, and that they viewed with delight and gratitude the stood the definite alliance between the Constitution and the boon which was about to be bestowed on the Catholics cf Ire- Church of England, and he also was able to understand the land by the Right Hon. Ba r o n et. H e mus t sa y a l so th a t th e emi t , nexion between the State and the Established Church of Hon. Membe r ' s s p eec h was f u ll o f exp l o d e d c h arges aga i nst a eotland, but that appeal, he confessed, was w eak to his len- tho Catholics, and of no doubt unintentional misrepresenta g.gions feelings which was fourrled upon negative terms and ti ons aga i nst C at h o li c d octr i nes and pr i nc i ples ; b ut t h e real tinge which were left in uncertainty and vagueness. Re- point of the speech was to be found in the last sentence, !cuntable were the words of Mr. Burke, contained in the last wherein he declared that he opposed the grant, because he was letter he had written on public affairs. Theta words had been opposed to the Catholic religion, and that was the real reason Written in the later years of his life, when his mind was under of the violence, and of the "No Popery" cry. The sole Il l it t s olemn impression of the reality of future things. In 1799 reason was th i s they said, " You are wrong and we are "lr. Burke h a d s aid, "It is not agreeable to piety or principl e r i ght. " —( A laugh.) They denied, indeed, any desire to to give any privileges to a negative religion. Such is Protes- persecute the Catholics, but they were endowed with no tentisrn without a creed, and to withhold these privileges from fri en dl y f ee li ng towar d s t h em. Th ey were i n fl uence d b y a th 'le who entertain clear and intelligible views of religious spirit which would have qualified them to become one of the faith, and from whom we do not greatly differ, is neither just knights of King Arthur's round-table: a spirit and a frame per r easonable." Mr. Burke bad then begun to find that the of mind which, a few centuries ago, would have made the "elusion of the Roman Catholics was impolitic and unjust, Hon. Member for Kent turn him, and some other person turn l i nd such h a d b een his ()Pinion in the later years of his life. the surv i vor , an d th a t w i t h ou t an y gr e a t l oss t o th e country ,— li e was aware of the religious feelings of many ( Laughter .) But, to go back as far as e i g h teen centur i es, sup "etnbers o f th a t, H ouse an d o f th e country; b ut, pose the Hon. Member for Kent had been born au Israelite, being So awa re o f th a t religious fe e ling, h e i mp l ore d and brought up an honest and consc i ent i ous Israelite, would those who rested upon that feeling to consider how it stood. he not, with the same fiame of mind and disposition, have de- He would not make any minute comparisons as to the dif- sired to impeach the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, as the ferent forms of religious persuasion, but had they such reli- Hon. Member for Knaresborough now wished to impeach the glens consistency as justified them in pleading religious Right Honourable Baronet?—(Laughter.) He did not wish 3 eruPles ? ( Hear. bear.) To judge rightly of this question to pick out the Hon. Member for Kent invidiously, but that they ought to pot themselves in the position of Roman Cello- Hon. Gentleman had attacked him, and charged him with 141 .—( Loud Opposition cheers.) 'I hey ought always to argue being an idolator, to the great amusement of his Right Hon. from the point of view in which they stood with whom they Friend the Member for Dungarvan, who said he heard him Were dealing. He should, indeed, be surprised if any one with a feeling akin to love.—( Hear, and laughter.) The Hon. doubted so obvious a principle. Did they not give votes of Friend of the Member for Kent, the Member for Oxford too, . alone) , to other religious bodies? Would their conduct in displayed a sacred spirit, which seemed to qualify him to be that respect bear scrutiny ? Had not a measure which, dur- high priest of the Jews.—(Renewed laughter.) He was g al the la s t se ssion o f P ar li ament, h a d b een i ntroduced by his no latitudinarian. He was a Catholic in communion Right Hen. Friend (Sir R. Peel), beets called the " Socinian with the Church of Rome by conviction, by examination, Endowment" Bill by licensed politicians; but they needed confirmed by those Scriptures which the Catholic were Slot to travel so far back for a real Socinian Endowment Bill, accused of not being permitted to read.—( Cries of " Hear, for every Appropriation Bill which they passed at the con • hear.") But, holding that creed and profession, he did most elusion of each session, contained votes of money for the en- strenuously abhor and repudiate religious persecution in every dowment of Socinians. He might be told that this was only country, and under every creed.—(Cheers.) Whether in elope from year to ye ar, and might at any time be stopped. Great Britain, or in Spain, or in Naples, or in Russia, he fully jThat seeenied to him more a technical than a substantial ob- abhorred and disliked it. —( Hear, hear.) He should not have ection. The question he put to himself was, would it be done his duty if, before he sat down, he did not pay a tribute, stopped ?—( Cheers. l Would any one propose its disconti- though a most inadequate and humble one, but certainly a nuance? He might lament it, but if it were not to be most unqualified one, of admiration, at the position in which altered, it was dishonest to refuse to recognise it.—(Cheers.) the Right Hon. Baronet had placed himself in bringing for- His Right Honourable Friend had presented a petition from ward this measure, opposed as he was by a great minority of the Remonstrant Syno I of Ulster. They had the candour to his usual supporters. Calm and intrepid, the Right lion. admit that they received money fronts the State. The doe- Baronet bore up against the stream, firm in his determination, trines they supported were Arian principles, and feeling that and supported by every true statesman in the United Kingdom; they were thus further removed from the religion of the State and he trusted that he would not merely triumph in this Bill, than the Roman Catholics, they could not understand why, as but succeed in promoting the pacification of the empire. they received a State endowment, the College of Maynooth Mr. D'ISRAELI and Mr. SHAW again rose together, and nvu not entitled to receive it also. It those petitioners did not the calls, as before, were loud and general for Mr. D'lsraeli, landerstactl the reason, he must be et sanguine man who ex- and Mr. Shaw resumed his seat. Sir, said the Hon. Gentle- Peed that the Roman Catholics would understand it. He man, I should not have intruded for a moment between you it not, then, find in the practice of the Constitution, or in and the Noble Load just now, had I had the slightest idea that the Conviction of his opponents, any substantial, fixed, and per- he intended to have caught your eye ; but the amendment I ft e _anent ground for opposing the present measure.-(Hear, having been withdrawn, I had an idea, and that supposition is " e ar. It was stated that the Romish Church emanded very fibeneral on this side of the House, that we should not eater independence—that there was somethine peculiar to have een honouredt e with any declaration of opinion from that Church which rendered the endowment Ebjectionable, any gentleman on the other side of the Itemise. But lam Tit it was manifest that in this objection the opponents of extremely glad that the Noble Lord has had an opportunity r t he measure had descended from the main ground of their of expressing his opinion on the subject. I trust he does r ilt eitile.—(llear, hear.) They must e ith er b e a bl e t o not f or a moment imagine that I rise to say anything offen gulagW_wan oPound a c ons tit u ti ona l pro f ess i on o f f a i t h f or w hi c h t h ey sive to his creed, which I respect, or anything offensiveg to eleim a p er f ect un if orm i ty, or t h ey must ad a st that the hi mse lf an d hi s co-rel i g i on i sts, with whom, in many respects, Church, like any other religious body, was I sympathise.—( Hear, hear.) I come now to the speech of entitled to take her chance in urging such claims upon Puha- the Right. Hun. Gentleman the Member for Newark. My ri ° lent as she best could. Being thus unable to diseever any first impression, when I listened to that extremely able ha -71 tt r i s ed which would warrant the Legislature in pursuing the rangue, was the question why the Right Hon. Gentleman had ;ernof exclusion against the Roman Catholics by the rejec- passed the gangway to deliver it. —( Hear, and a laugh.) It t:r4of this Bill, he would proceed to say that the boon eon- seemed to be worthy of the Treasury benc ' h, of that Treasury ed by the Bill was a great boon. It was most important as bench which that evening he criticised. It seemed to me that di sh " Principle it involved. He would not refer to it it it were while the Right Hon. Gentleman informed us that though he it but there could be no doubt that the Bill, though supported the present Bill, it was not for the reasons which r id not decide the question of the payment of the Roman were adduced by his late right hon. chief. Nevertheless, had the reli t clergy, did most emphatically and conclusively decide he been in his position, and had he introduced the Bill him oheerr • eligious objection to that mea'urea—(Leud Opposition self, h e might have brought forward, perhaps, unanswerable sui.:) Insuperable obstacles might arise upon other arguments ; and deeply sensible of what he styled the eit cum nds, but let them not conceal the fact that the Inca- stances of the case, he might, perhaps, have arrested the flow tats,ot. his Right Honourable Friend, brought forward in of those petitions which he confesses has astounded him, but , e ar 1845, - decided any rel gious objections which could be which next week he informs us will astonish us still more.— Qui: On that question .—( Cheers .) In another point of view, (A laugh.) But if . l asked myself fora moment what was the e se o hras a great measure. He did not attribute its greatness necessity for the Right Hon. Gentleman passing the gangway th e 'l thousands of pounds which swelled its importance, but to deliver that speech, ought I not rather to have asked my- Ho use should know that never had there been such an en- self the question, what was the necessity for the Right Hon. I,4wlnent granted on su c h terms. He did not intend to im- Gentleman to cross the House to deliv er th at speech? If those gat the Principle upon those grounds — on the contrary, he are the opinions the Right Hon. Gentleman entertains, how Italti. s uPPorted it. Only let it not be said that this was a c an he, so subtle a casuist as he may be, recon c il e th e course shne e t g i ft- He did not know what was the amount of the en- which he stow pursues to that which he pursued w h en in op.. 1114 teat to T r i n i ty C o ll ege , D u bli n ; b u t if t h at were l arger pos i tion ? Because, e, after all, what is the result of th e very tre e rn°° °t, it was granted on different terms. It was usual to adroit argumentation and elaborate exposition of th e Ri g h t p eetni t i to the Established Church honorary privileges and Hon. Gentleman ? It is this, that the principle upon w hi c h tior eo , gg ' ar Y endowments; hut they imposed upon that Church the State has hitherto been connected with the ecclesiastical of h e rnding restrictions—they regulated the performance affairs of this country is worn eut.— ( Hear, hear.) We must they service they restrained the assemblies of her clergy— seek a new principle , says the Right Hon. Gentleman, and the It e • o lt a rttached to their gifts various conditions.—( Hear, hear.) Government which I have left because I support it—( Laugh pe,r,„ no w speaking of general rules. It was the case in ter)—that Government has discovered . a . new principle,— ta was the same in France. There was something ( Hear, hear .) But where is the new principle? He tells us th e ,these cases of giving and taking between the Church and that it is not now definitely and distinctly made out. He ac heelaktes It was Well known that in France and Austria no knowledges that the exposition of it is feeble, and, perchance, bull was valid without the consent of the State. The vague.—( A laugh.) It is not now complete ;we must look n ab "lOnent claimed the right of assent over all Papal ordi- to futurity. But if this is the case, have there been no prior lit e t e t . e t in spiritual and secular. And so, though this might be a attempts to adumbrate this new system, and have no public men ne tt Fugenclovrment it showed a spirit of confidence and kind- in this House raised their voices to support this principle and lift g w gieh he trusted would be appreciated.—(Cheers.) The advocate this new settlement. Have they not been, in fact the ei a e s fettered by no condition, and in this respect was foundation of measures brought forward by Governments which eone u °wlnent more liberal than that which the State no for ger exist ? And was not an opposition to those measures, Qui t "' L ed upon th e Ch urc h of this country, and upon the however imperfect, or however partially advocated, the founda- Ito g e t " of any other countries. He said, then, that this was tion, not only of the late Opposition, but of the Conservative tme et of great importance, and a boon of great magni- theory ?---( Hear. )I am perfectly ready to agree with the Right tra„,2_, and being thus a boon of great magnitude, he Hon. Gentleman that the relation which exists between the at ati ‘u that if they had made up their minds that eircum- Church and State in this country is an extremely unsatisfactory booteses required it from them—if they did not find in their one. I have had someopportunities for observation on this . head. to th_und consciences any permanent principle of . resistance I have been a Member of this House now eight or nine ses (44 m easure — he trusted that they would give it freely.— stens, during a very tempestuous period, the principal part Prete. Ghee It might be s aid that this would operate as a of which was expended in discussions arising out of that con tete .. ra to sedition. It might be so regarded. It mighi be troverted principle. 1 have read the Right Hon. Gentleman's bu t 1, 1 " d In a wrong, an ungracious, and ungrateful spirit— book.—(Laughter.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman, in his ti lts ; that they bad no right to think. If this were of itself argument, has made one great assumption. He says—You * toe ' and a Ilene." Act—with reference to the circum - have endowed the English Church ; you have endowed the th ee `i" of the country and of the time—they should not allow Anglican Church. - Can you, in fact, refuse to endow the .*llitiel,selves to be governed by a considelation of the manner in Roman Church ?—( Hear.) But have we, in fact, endowed would be received. He had lately read the words of the Anglican Church ?—( Hear.) That is the question. We eine °ll ' Gentleman, who was well known and was a know that there has been an alliance between the Church and el lar r . of that House (Mr. O'Connell), which, being the State; and the very term " alliance" shows that they met *oulacteristie of hi s h umour an d point, the House on equa l terms , an d ma d e an equal compact. But • the Right pul l ll Perhaps p erm i t hi m to rea d . He said " Agitation, I Hon. Gentleman, with a ll hi s s t u d y o f hi stor i ca l l ore, an d w i t h k ee You; Concili a ti on -h a ll, l am muc h o bli ge d to y o u ; that tra i ned casuistry, which exceeds any historical knowledge, (47 1 , 1 Association, Maynooth, ou g ht to pray for yo u ."— cannot p l ace hi s fi nger on any page in history whi c h s h ows he w 4gt er, and cries of " Hear, hear.") Well, the doctrine that the State endow e d th e Ch urc h.—( H ear , h ear .) Y ou may tin t ° llld suppose was held, oat on be held, in Ireland, that regret it. The ecclesiastical power in this country has a large fere" a .premium to agitation, and an encouragement to estate. You may sly that it is predominant, and reason hel d .7. agitation.—( Hear, hear.) But he hoped those who against the principle, but that it is a fact none can deny. We %t o r Nils argument would remember that agitation was a two- deal with it as we deal with the estates of the aristocracy. l l as o n th 'aPcn—that it might he used on the one side as well Parties may be divided upon that question of the landed in- held f other ; a n d t h a t, if t h e I r i s h peop l e o ff ere d a t emp ti ng her i tance of the country. But you cannot deny the fact. Peti t s agitati on , agitation, it was equally possible, from a view of the A s p rac ti ca l men we d ea l w i t h great fa c ts i n suc h a way the, g ahs which h a d t h at n i ght b een la i d upon the ta bl e, and as to secure the greatest possible benefits. But when we the Petitions which he was satisfied would yet be laid upon come to speak of religion a new question arises ; and the fig that this subject would afford a field open for agita- whole basis of—l will not say the argument—but of the this less tempting, not less inviting, not less seductive in political expediency of the Right Hon. Gentleman, then en 'oeuntry, in resisting it.—( Hear, hear.) He deprecated tirely fails him. I should like to know what principle you will .oth th e one agitation and the other. He trusted that lay down for the step you are invited to take. I know the 1 4 6 r ti ell o ti f`r and *wiser spirit would prevail among the Mein- Right Hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill, and I must ,ki nd of its House—( Hear)—and likewise over the general make the same apology as the Right Hon. Gentleman the late ,k 4 tits t he country. He trusted that in Ireland, as in Eng- President of the Board of Trade, for referring to his speech, r rarties would feel convinced that they ought not to press told us that upon this subject there were three courses open to I. Ai _ • • either side their ideal claims and extreme opinions. us. I never heard g Hon. Gentleman bring forward Ultaffiesto id that religion was involved in this question, and a measure without making the same concession.—(Laughter.) suet, ter n' not admit of two considerations, he would ask, if I never knew the Right Hon. Gentleman bring forward, not thi s o ? . to be the state of things, what was to be the fate of what I ce.ll a great measure, but a measure which assumes to the t os u s i ttra hut to be hopelessly torn hy endless disputes, with settle a great ccntroversy , in which there is a difference , with- Kre s ;', ll fea . red, even of that religion which parties hones ly out saying that three courses were not open to us. .In a that the inculcate.—(ilear.) But he cherished the hope certain sense , and looking to his own position, he is right. t o u nfavourable anticipations would not be realised : —( Laughter.) There is the course the Right Hon. Gen -11 Was t ere htould be a disposition to consider how impossible tlernan has left.—(" Hear, hear, " and laughter.) There is Rio ut ° be in a country where there were different reli- the course that the Right Hon. Gentleman is following; and tkr, per en if every one was to urger his own claims to there is usually the course which the Right Hon. .Gentleman !od er t , l . °e Point. He trusted that o refuse to sur- ought to pursue.—( Great laughter.) Perhaps, Sir, I ought that th e unchecked dominion of these feelings, to say that there is a fourth course, because it is possible for the the clan gs : f ey would acquiesce in a just saidsitedthins that they had the ItightHon. Gentleman, and then having voted for it to rescind "a e principle of measurs, and that it would after. it.—( Laughter.) That is the fourth course, and in future I a nt out to its extreme length. That was an ar- trust the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) will not forget ma y nich it was difficult absolutely to disprove ; but it Hear,"and laughter.) The Right lion. Gentleman tells e, r fro m b • • • • gr , a nd eing true as applied to political matters - gene- us be always looks back to precedents; he comes with a great R at Wen t e sPecially to the affairs of this country. That wasan measure, and he always has a small precedent. lie traces the agate!sred against concession at the time of the American steam-engine always back to the precedents.tea-kettle.— o t e_ry % ,„, 31 _._ Burke disposed of it in a few words, which were laughter). His precedents are generally tea-kettle p w a rheable to their present position. Mr. Burke said, when —(Renewed laughter). He comes here boasting if the Preaseo h e en s of a with the argument that to comply with the con- principle of the measure to be submitted to our consideration. foerelllied--erns riha would only whet their appetite for more, The Right Hon. Gentleman has always Mr. Percival, or some itoe°W eat It Is a great mistake to imagine that mankind old book from a dusty corner, to bring down and throw upon lee'ernrc,...t°ractce their speculative principles, either in the table, saying, have admitted the principle. Confine th egu gge ot .or freedom, as far as their arguments or their yourselves to the details, Don't trouble yourselves about the v‘ttkiliciseolornr Ti:x.iugtihotleoard them. We, Englishmen, stop short of first and second reading, but reserve all your energies for the oe e s * . .t t en! of the principles by which we support parts of Committtee, because the principle is admitted." Now I deny even of the whole." These were the that in the limited sense the Right Hon. Gentleman not h is theta who acted adequately on his material interests says, it is admitted. In the first place that was a temporary e ared the thetaPhysieal principles.--( Hear, hear.) He con- vote, and this is not ; but, in fact, it is a permanent one. But ofnoels, his s h e belief was that these words were applicable to all I will not make that the ground of opposition to the Right hiand, 'il_u es to all communities on earth, but especially to Hon. Gentleman. I will go to the arguments of the Right egtaes ao teause it WAS impossible not to see that the system Hon, Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade; I eottrE2t government consisted in a combination of oppo- am astonished that under present circumstances he seems in "s Which shaped nnd modified each other, and his argument so completely to have supplanted principles. 1 ~h ~, ' looked upon the Right Hon. Gentleman es the last paladin of principle, the very chivalry of abstraction ; and, when a ques tion teas raised which touched the elementary principle of constitutional settlement and ecelesias.ical arrangement, I never believed that it could be the Right Hon. Gentleman who would come down and g ive the House the small change of circumstances to settle this great. account.—(Laughter end cheers.) Have circumstances which ought to settle every ofthing—have APercival? circumstances Howon asti not t ed must changed Al-. siege Percival's thetni ghost:e be—if he has a ghost.—(G r e a t l aug ht e r.) Y e t were Mr. Pitt, or Fox, or even Burke, whom the Right Hon. Gentleman has quoted to-night, brought in to settle this question, we might feel the controlling influence of the great apparition. But Mr. Percival to be brought in to settle it !—(‘• Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Mr. Percival seems, in a spirit as petty as his nature, to have agreed to a miserable vote about this accidental college at Maynooth. What, let me eels you, was the political and religious situation of affairs by virtue of which Mr. Percival became Prime Minister at the time of which I ant speaking? You had really then what you pretend you now have—a Constitution in Church and State. You had that Constitution, and Members of Parliament being then neces sarily in communion with the Church, were, by virtue of this junction of Church and elate, in fact members of a lay synod. What, again, was the situation of the other kingdoms of the empire ? You had a Church in Scotland without any Dis senters, the only persons there not belonging to it being the relicts of the old Episcopalian establishment. What, also, was the ease with respect to Ireland ? There was your Constitu tion in Church and State not only founded in principle, but most rigidly adhered to. What do we now see? You have no longer in this country your boasted union cf Church and State. You may proclaim them still—you may make speeches to prove that the union is as strong as ever—you may toast them at your public dinners, but I tell you that the Constitu tion in Church and State no longer exists.—( Hear, hear.) What is the broad and undeniable fact with respect to this proclaimed union? Why, even within my own per sonal experience I detect its hollowness ; and to test its non-existence, I am politically connected with a district which is threatened with very severe suffering in consequence of this supposed Constitution in Church and State; the inhabitants of that district are about to endure one of the greatest blows that could be inflicted upon them, and this solely because it has ph aced a Conservative Government to destroy the ancient epis copate under which they have so long been governed.—( Hear, and cheers.) What is now the position of the Church of Scot land—a church which the late Earl of Liverpool held up as a model, and as the perfection of a religious community, because, I suppose, it gave him no trouble ?—( A laugh.) What, I repeat, is the present situation of the Church of Scotland ? It is rent in twain. Besides the Kirk, there is now the Free Kirk. Well, will you endow the Free Kirk ? Will you apply this principle of eneowmcnt to sectarians and schismatics of every class ? Where will you stop ? Why should you stop ? And this consideration brings me to the question immediately before the House. You find your Erastian system crumbling from under your feet. Will you adopt a pantheistic principle? I have unfaltering confidence in the stability of our Church; but I think that the real source of the injury which threatens it is its connexion with the State, which places it under the control of a House of Commons that is not neces sarily of its communion. Leave the Church to herself, she will shrink from no contest, however severe. I believe in Ireland itself, if the question be, will you sever the Church from the Sta'e, or will you endow the Raman Catholic Church ?—for my own part, I believe the Protestants of Ireland would say, " Sever the connexion between the Church and the State, and don't endow the Roman Catholics."—( Hear, hear.) lint then we come to this other consideration—are we to be bound to recognise a pantheistic principle ? Because, judging from all that has passed, I can only come to the conclusion, that any body of sectarians that can prove a cer tain population to Downing-street will be considered to have a claim for an endowment. For my own part, I confess I have no great confidence in the cure of souls in that quarter.— ( Hear, hear.) I observe in Downing-street a disposition to assail our old and deeply rooted habits. From that quarter has proceeded the assault on the parochial constitution of the kingdom. Will they complete it by attending to our spiritual necessities? For my part, lam totally opposed to such a pro ceeding.—( Hear, hear.) I can conceive nothing more op posed to, or more utterly at variance with, the feelings of this country than a police surveillance, such as is contemplated over the ceremonies and observances of the Church. I abso lutely deny that the Church of England is the creature of the State. The alliance between them has been one formed and maintained upon equal terms ; and if it be attempted, as ap pears to be the intention, to place all ecclesiasticol affairs under the control of Downing-street, and to subject them to the same species of discipline that is enforced in Prussia over the religious establishments there, I tell the Right Hon. Gen tleman that the people of this country will never endure such a system. This alone is a sufficient ground with me to oppose the Bill now before the House. I will not say that this Bill has been introduced into this House in a sinister and insidious manner, though I, in common with others, have formed my conclusions upon that point; but I will as sert, what I believe cannot be denied, that the measure has taken the country by surprise. But 1 have other reasons fur opposing this measure.--( Hear, hear.) I oppose this Bill on account of the manner in which it has been introduced, and I oppose it also on account of the men by whom it has been brought forward. —( Loud cheers.) lam perfectly ready to meet those cheers, and I do so by de c l ar i ng , th a t 1 d o not think — putting Wall} , out of view the other objections which I entertain—that the men who are now seated on the Treasury ',rich are morally entitled to bring such a measure forward. This measure, Sir, involves a principle against which the Right Hon. Gentleman and most of his colleagues have all along most signally struggled.—( Hear, hear.) When I recal to mind all the apt eehes, and all the motions, and all the votes which have emanated from the present occupants of the Treasury bench on this and analogous questions—when I remember their opposi tion to that system of education which they now seek to pro. mote—when I recollect the procession of prelates going up to the palace of the Sovereign to protest against analogous- mea sures with those which those who incited this proceeding are now urging forward—when I reral to mind all the the dis cussions which have taken place here on the subject of Irish education—when the appropriation clause presents itself to my momory—( Loud cheers)—l consider it would be worse than useless to dwa 11 at any length upon the circumstances which induce me to adopt this opinion. And are we to he told, that because those men who took the course to which I have referred have crossed the floor of this House, and have aban doned with their former seats their former professions —are we to be told that these men's measures and actions are to remain uncriticised and unopposed, because they tell us to look to the merits of their measures, and to forget them selves and their former protestations ?—(Loud cheers.) Such preternions naturally lead to the question whether party, as a political instrument, is or is not to continue to govern the discussions of this House?—( Hear, hear.) This question touches the whole policy of the Ministry. Let us, therefore, grapple with it, and decide what our future course shall be in this respect. Let us endeavour to put an end to the miscon ception and subterfuge which now surround us. lam perfectly contented to place the question upon this footing. Now, Sir. it is very easy to complain of party Government, and there may be persons capable of forming an opinion on this subject who may entertain a deep objection to that Government, and know to what that objection leads.—( Hear, hear.) But there are others who shrug their shoulders, and talk in a slipshod style on this head, who, perhaps, are not exactly aware of what that objection leads to. These persons should understand, that if they object to party Government they do, in fact, object to no thing more nor less than Parliamentary Government.—( Loud cheers.) A popular assembly without parties-500 isolated individuals—cannot stand five years against a Minister with an organised Government without becoming a servile senate.— (Loud cheers.) The objectors to party Government may have a good case, on the merits of which I give no opinion. They may say, " Here are we the Parliament of England; we have had the virtual sovereignty of this country for a century and a half ; we have plunged the country in debt, and we can't pay it ; we have done more than patri cian Rome in its most rapacious hour. We have mort gaged industry to protect property ; we have passed laws on the currency which have affected p ro p er t y more t h an a ll t h e tampering of the coinage by all the sovereigns that have ever existed; we have violently assailed, and now still more enor mously menace, the parochial constitution of the country, and, having differed on every other subject, we have at length agreed on one point, that with relation to the civilization, the wealth, and luxury that surroun d t h em, the people of England, are the hardest worked and the worst fed, the most miserable and degraded population in the world.—(Loud cheers.) This is the case of those who are opposed to party Government. Well, let them carry out their principle ; let them vote an ad dress to the Crown, go up to Buckingham Palace, fall on their knees before our Sovereign Lady, and restore to her the pre rogatives which they have so long usurped and so injuriously used.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) But for the Right Hon. Gentleman, even a pedant in favour of Parliamentary power, who, First Minister of the Crown, declares he is ready to go to war to-morrow with the Lord Chief Justice of England in be half of your privileges—who is jealous of the slightest inter ference with your business or your duties, even if you cannot transact or perform them--who enjoins the youth of England not to make brilliant speeches, but to work on railway com mittees—(Laughter) —for him to set up for one who would be independent of Parliament and party, is indeed astonishing.— ( Cheers.) The Noble Lord opposite, the hereditary leader of the Whig party, who founded Parliamentary Government in this country, will, I am sure, not withhold his concurrence with the principles I have laid down. That Noble Lord, the re presentative of Mr. Fox, will not gainsay the motto of that great leader—" Men, and not measures." And how has the opposite system answered ? You have permitted men to gain power and enter place, aed then carry measures exactly the reverse to those which they professed in opposition, and they carry these measures by the very means and machinery by which they conducted the opposition, and by which theygained power.—(Cheers.) And you are reconciled to this pro cedure by being Persuaded that by carrying measures which you disapprove of, and they pretend to disrelish, they are making what they call " the best bargain" for you. I say that the Parliamentary course, under the usual cir cumstances, is for this House to have the advantage of a Government formed on distinct principles, and of its consequence, a constitutional Opposition ; and yet here is a Minister who now habitually brings forward as his own mea sures those very schemes and proposals to which, when in op position, he always avowed himself a bitter and determined op penent.—(Loud cheers.) He brings in Canada Bills, he brings in Maynooth Bills, he uses expressions and excites feelings still more objectionable than the measures; but, let me ask the admirers of the best bargain system, how they think the Right Hon. Gentleman would have acted had they been introduced by the Noble Lord opposite?—(L ou d and prolonged cheers.) Why, then those Bills would have been at least checked by the Opposition, by the constitutional Opposition ; the questions would have been criticised, they would have been opposed ; in the case of the College of Maynooth, I grant it may hare been factiously opposed ; but this opposition is a necessary conse quence of a Parliamentary Government. In what situation are we placed now ?—( Hear.) Up come all these petitions; in them we hear the loud murmurs of the people, because there is nothiponent of the national opinion in this House, while we have a Government which came into power by an organisation prepared to oppose such measures now engaged in carrying them.—(Loud cheers.) How can we accuse the Opposition? I may on constitutional grounds say, the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) ought to oppose the measure, though he approves it, because it is thus brought forward • the people find that th e men who now occupy the high places of the Government support measures they were brought into power politically and personally to op pose ; it is for those who act on another set of principles to op pose the Government ; but we have not a Government formed on distinctive principles, consequently we have no constitu tional Opposition to keep the Government in check. Now, I hope it will not be said, because! have made these observations, which are in entire and complete relation and affinity to the motion before the House, that I am " bandying personalities." Certainly we live in strange times, when Parliamentary criti cism on a person in so eminent a position as the First Minister of the Crown is to be stopped by his declaring it personality, when it is but fair observation on the character and conduct of a public man—( Hear, hear.)—whose career is open to us. with respect to whom we have a right -to draw the inferences we think legitimate ; and if they are not just they may be con travened in free discussion. 1 do not know what the House thinks of this system of putting down Parliamentry discussion; it is not a very new experiment ; it has been tried in —I will not say another House, for that must not be referred to—but it has been tried in what is called "another place."—(Great laughter.) Ido not know whether the position occupied by " another place" in the public estimation and the public eyo is one of which the Members of the .House of Commons are particularly ambitious.—(Cheemand laughter.) I remember when. we ttsed to toast "another place" with three times three and nine • had had their minds turned from the great object of the debate times nine— (Laughter) ;—" another place" was once to these petty feelings and considerations? and he did hope the a favourite toast at. all Conservative dinners—(Laugh- , House would pardon him if he endeavoured to forget all con ter )—where is the independence of " another place" now?— sideration of the immediate amusement which might be de (Great cheering.) It is not Radicalism, it is not the revolu- rived from malice in the guise of wit —( Hear)—and left it at tionary spirit of the 19th century, which has consigned once for the more serious subjects involved in the question.— " another place" to its illustrious insignificance—(Cheers and ( Hear.) It was a question which must be regarded as of laughter) —it is Conservatism and a Conservative dictator.— great importance on that (the Opposition) side of the House; (Cheers. ) Are you prepared to meet the same fate? Every for it involved not merely the quiet of Ireland, but also the time a Member expresses any opinions not absolutely agreeable ! quiet and well-bensg of England ; and perhaps, without cx to the Minister of the day, is he to be stopped by a charge of 1 aggeration, he might say, the quiet of the w or ld a t l arge .— " bandying pe rsona li t i es ?" Whenever the young men of Eng- I ( Hear, hear.) Ite was because he viewed the question in this land allude to any great principles of political life or Parlia- light, and because the country generally, and his constituents :unitary conduct, are they to be recommended to go to a railway in particular, were deeply stirred by conscientious scruples in committee?—( Cheers and laughter.) I have no doubt it connexion with it, that he approached it with such feelings of would be very agreeable if this House was in the same condi- doubt and anxiety. If the question came before them now, tion, especially with regard to this Bill, as "another place." for the first time, it would assume a very different aspect. I know that the Members of this House are different, that the But, however easy it might be to laugh at the word " cir charecters of the individuals who would control us are different; cumstances," he could not shut out from his view the present but the process with both bodies, although it varies, is in re- condition of Ireland and of this country when he came to con sult the same. It may break the spirit in " another place," cider the course he should take on this measure. " Circum and it may lower the tone in this ; " another place" may be stances" might be cited often, as indeed might " principles," drilled into a guard-room, and the House of Commons may without much care being felt for either one or the other. But be degraded into a vestry.—(Cheers and laughter.) But the when he looked at the state of Ireland, and at the circum consequence is exactly similar, and that consequence will be, stances under which they were called upon to vote on this that yon will have Bills like this Maynooth Bill, and that still question, he must say that it behoved them to place themselves more important measure which, after the admission of above the agitation around them, to set an example to those the Right Hon. Member for Newark, may be looked on as whom they represented—( Hear, hear)—todo their duty boldly, a fact, if not accomplished, yet ascertained, introduced, and, whatever might be the result, to act up to their view of and carried through thi s House, and of course through what was right and proper, and likely to conduce to the wet " another place ;" and you may have the floor of this House fare of this great community.--( Loud cheers.) Now, looking covered with petitions, and the lobby of "another place" at the grant then proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman at crowded with the constituents who have left us in despair; the head of the Government, he had no hesitation in saying but, whatever may b e th e d eg ree of public feeling, whatever that he, for one, was prepared to support it. He would go may be the depth of the national sentiment, if you choose one step further, and declare that if the Right Hon. Gentle to support a Government that announces no distinctive prin- man had come down to the House to propose a grant, and eiples, which is in tur n supported by an Opposition that does they were for the moment excluding all recollection of any not oppose, l am certa i n there i s no sp i r it an d no nation that money havi n g b een f ormer ly gran t e for the same purpose, can resist a " cross" so deeply laid and so deliberately ac - he (Mr. Roebuck) would at once close with the offer. But complished.—(L ou d cheers.) This Maynooth Bill is intro- he would take the case as it was first presented to them. A duced instead of the Irish Reeistration 13111—(Cheers)—the purely Protestant Parliament in Ireland endowed, as it was necessity for which was as apparent when the Right Hon. Gen- termed, though he objected to the word, the Roman Catholic tleman was in opposition as it is now • the necessity for which College of Maynooth. An annual grant was made by a Par was doubly apparent when the Right Hon. Gentleman assumed liament exclusively Protestant and composed wholly of the the reins of office, and eq ua lly apparent as it is now; but rich, and that grant was continued up to the time of the union. which is brought in after a four years' experiment of lowering At the period of the union a purely Protestant Parliament re your tone, and wor ki ng that, con stitutionally, by means of a peated the vote. Various Ministers came into power ; political Whig opposition.—( (S eers .) We have had this Bill brought parties of various descriptions took office ; and under all this in alter a four years experiment; and during those four grant was continued. He wanted the House, however, to re ) ears what has the Conservative party endured? What has mark particularly the circumstances under which a grant was it experienced? What is the treatment it has been obliged first made to the College of Maynooth. This took place in to submit to, till the thing was so ripe that even your m ur- 1795, at a time when the Protestant feared the Catholic less murs are not noticed? This B:11 brings affairs to a crisis ; than he feared the principles of France, when he would rather the question is not to be decided on its merits ; it is to be see in every parish in Ireland a Catholic priest, a follower of the decided on the fact—who are the men who bring it forward ? religion of Christ, than an emissary of the Jacobin Club in If you are to 1 ave a popular Government, if you arc to Paris, or a follower of Robespierre. During the existence of the have a Parliamentary Administration, the conditions an- Reign of Terror, they applied themselves to the task of con tecedent are, that you should have a Government which ciliating the Catholics, and to secure their assistance in the declares the principles upon which its policy is founded, and battle which they were fighting, this grant tees made. As time then you can have on them the wholesome check of a constitu- went on the parties in the contest changed. Napoleon, it banal opposition. What have we got instead ? - Something it is true, established Catholicity in France, but it was sup has risen up in this country as fatal in the political world as it posed that he aimed at universal dominion, and Ireland was re has been in the landed world of Ireland—we have a great Par- quired to send forth thousands of gallant soldiers to tight the liamentary middleman.—(lmmense cheering.) It is well great battle that was then going on between France and Eng known what a middleman is —(Cheers and laughter)—He is a land. In the year 1808 the principle of the grant was again man who bamboozles one party, and plunders the other—(A mooted, and again discussed, and they added to the grant that laugh) —till, having obtained a position to which he is not en- was originally made. They found a purely Protestant Parlia titled, he cries out, '• Let us have no party questions, but merit acting in this way, for its own purposes, under all Mi fixity of tenure."—( Laughter and cheers.) 1 want to have a nistries, up to the year 1829. In that year the Roman Catho commission issued to inquire into the tenure by which Down- lies were, as it was termed, emancipated, and entered into the ing-street is held.—(Loud cheers.) I want to know whether composition both of that and the other House of Parliament. the conditions of entry have been complied with, and whether The grant to Maynooth was again renewed, and was continued there are not some covenants in the lease which are already for- up to the time of the Reform Act. Now, it might, and probe feited?—(Cheers and laughter.) I hope I shall not he an- bly would, be said that the doings of an aristocratic Govern swered by Hansard.—(Cheers. ) lam not surprised the Right ment were net those with which they could have much sympa- Hon. Gentleman should be so fond of recurring to that great thy, it being notorious that an aristocracy consulted only its authority ; he has great advantages ; he can look over a record own convenience and its own selfish interests. But after the of thirty, and more than thirty years of an eminent career. year 1832 the Parliament was one which represented the great But that is not the lot of every one, and I may say, as a general body of Dissenters its this country ; and from that time to the rule, lam rather surprised (especially when the Maynooth present had the grant been continued.—( Hear, hear.) What question is concerned), that experienced statesmen should he had to say on this subject he wished to address to his consti like to recur to that eminent publication.—( Hear, hear.) tuents and to the people out of doors. They had for What, af te r a ll, does one see on looking over a quarter of a the last twelve years sanctioned this grant—they had sane century or mo re even of one's own speeches in Hansard? tioned the principle of it up to the present hour; and they What dreary pages of interminable talk, what predic- could not, therefore, now turn round and tell their represen tions falsified, what pledges broken, what calculations Wives, whilst they suddenly startled their ears with a sort of that have gone wrong, what budgets that have blown up ecclesiastical trumpet—(Laughter)—that Protestantism was And all this, too, not relieved b . y a singl e or i g i na l t h oug h t, a i n d a il y an d h ourly peril on account of this grant.— single generous impulse, or a single happy expression! Why (Cheers.) They had seen the former grant made, not only Hansard, instead of being the Delphi of Downing-street, is without remonstrance, but with applause; and if,the grant but the Dunciad of polities.—(Cheers and laughter.) But I had been made for twelve years by four successive Parliaments, want something more than quotations from Hansard to account with different Administrations in power, the principle being for how parties have been managed in this House ; it is so the same as regarded the religious question whether the grant matter of fact and yet so fallacious, taking in every body, though were 8,000/. or 26,000/., they could not be suddenly called reverydeceived; so mechanical, an d yet so upo n t o rece d e f rom t h e pr i nciple on which the grant had hi la c can is hardlyy what it is, excep t a h um- th er t o b een made.—( Hear, hear.) Sonic complaint had been h i a bodyv elia n knows, that he drum hocus poen', in which the order of the day is read to made against the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) on ac take in a nation.—(Cheers and laughter.) Now, the system count of his stating that there were but three courses open. It is to be brought to a test to-night. Will the House support would not be denied that it useful was exceedingly to look at the Government in a measure which, according to the highest the real position in which they were placed. That matters authority,—one who has quitted the Cabinet for some reason should remain in their present position every one acknow that has not been given, and who, probably, may join it again ledged to be impossible. It ryas admitted that the present wader circumstances equally obscure—(Cheers),—is' in fact, position of Maynooth cou ld not cont i nue, first, by the Hon. an endowment for the Roman Catholic prie s th oo d of Ireland ? Member for the University of Oxford, who had always con- If any vote were at stake in which the social and political sistently been opposed to the grant; and secondly, by . those equality of the Roman Catholic Population was concerned, I who had had a new light brought into their minds by the would go as far as a ny man in the House, and perhaps further proposed extension of it. Hon. Members on,that side of the than many. But, Sir, no one pretends that this is now the ques- House who supported the policy of the Government con tion. The grounds on which I oppose this motion are not those tended, that the providing for the proper education of of hostility to their claims, but grounds which they themselves, the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland was of the highest after the clamour of the moment, must feel are legitimate ones. moment, as being calculated to make them feel that they were I cannot admit the plea ad miserieordiarn, founded on not aliens from the country of their birth. They felt that it the state o f m ayn ooth. Surely men of high spirit and was desirable to do all in their power to create in the minds of bearing cannot f o r a moment bring themselves to suppose the Irish priesthood feelings of affection for the Government, that we shall b e i n duced to vote for the measure on this plea ; and associations of pleasure in connexion with the place in it would be an insult to them to suppose so. I know there are which they were educated, instead of associations of insult and Roman Cath o lic co lleges, well organised and well ordered, that indignity.—( Hear, hear.) It must be recollected that the in are not in the c ondition of Maynooth ; there are sectarian stitutions of this country were not in any case paltry or mean, colleges in England with larger revenues even than those now because they were unable to make them otherwise. They proposed to b e g i ven by the Government in support of Roman were, in fact, for the most part, distinguished by magnificence Catholic principles. What sustains them? The sympathy of and liberality; and if Maynooth were treated in a different their co-religionists.—(Hear, hear.) I cannot believe, there• manner it would be attributed not to an inability, but to un fore, that those gentlemen will, upon reflection, be anxious willingness to provide proper support. The Roman Catholic that this Bill should pass. Ido not think it a measure either clergy had in many cases endured poverty and privation in car flattering to their pride or solacing to their feelings ; Ido not rying what they believed to be the truth from one end of the think it either a great or a liberal measure. The Right Hon. globe to the other ; and if it were necessary, he believed they Gentleman is a supreme master of Parliamentary tactics, and would et all times cheerfully assist in bearing public berdens. when he found he was not receiving from the seats behind him But when they found all the appliances of wealth exerted in the once abundant chorus of applause to which he was accuse other cases and withheld in their own, they naturally felt that toured, he went forward to the red box, and saying, "I know they did not enjoy their due share of the sympathy of England. this is a great grant to Maynooth," obtained the assent of What course, then, could the House pursue ? Why, they several Hon. Gentlemen of the Opposition to the assertion. must either get rid of the grant altogether, or accede to the But if the Right Hon. Gentleman's principle is correct, I motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. His only objection to think it is not a great grant; I think it is a mean, a meagre, that motion was, that it did not go far enough.—( Hear, and a miserable grant. If the Roman Catholic priesthood are hear.) He had hoped that the Right Honourable Gentle to be educated by the State, it must be something greater man would have proposed a broad scheme of academical edu than the difference between oet. and '281., something higher cation, making Maynooth a Roman Catholic University, simi than the difference between three in a bed or two.—( Hear. lar to Oxford and Cambridge, with the power of conferring de hear.) That is not the way, under any circumstances, in grecs, so that the clergy and the gentry might equally which I would approach a reverend priesthood. I cannot have availed themselves of its benefits. Had that course believe, therefore, that the Roman Catholic gentlemen, on been pursued, he believed no more hostility would have been reflection—and I hope they will have time for reflection-- exhibited to that proposal than the present.—( Hear, hear.) will vote for this measure, w hen they consider what it is. Now, there were two classes of objectors to this measure. The Who are they who introduce it? 'They are the same in c h. first class, with whom he deeply sympathised, opposed the viduals whose black shade fell on the sunshine of your h o p es grant on the voluntary principle, objecting to the endowment for more than half a century—they are those who arrested of any religion by the State. They said, that at the present the progress and fruition of those hopes for more than five-and- moment the Established Church was the monster grievance of twenty years. Will not these considerations affect you? Ireland, and they objected to what they called the setting up What if it be a boon ? I den that it is one—but if it were of a Roman Catholic Church establishment as equally objece such a boon as it i s sa id to be, would you accept it from hands tionable. But he contended that this was not the setting up polluted ?—( Hear, hear.) It is not from him you ought to of another establishment, but a contribution towards the educe accept it —not from him who, urged on, as he reluctantly tion of Ireland—a contribution in the best form towards the admitted, by a fatal State necessity, accompanied the con- teaching of the only teachers of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) cesssion of your legitimate political claims by the niggardly He regretted that the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman avowal that h e was obliged to concede them.—( Hear, hear.) was so inadequate to that object ; but he supported it as an As to the Whigs, lam almost in despair of appealing to their approach towards national education ; and he would do'so if, its hereditary duties, their constitutional convictions, er th e i r pl ace of b e i ng i n t e nded for the benefit of their fellow Christians historical position ; but I should have thought that the Noble in Ireland, it were designed for Jews or Mahomedans.—( Hear, Lord oppeeite was almost weary of being dragged at the hear.) Did they not contribute towards the teaching of the triumphal car of a contineror who did not conquer him in fair B ra h m i n priests in India, and of th e R oman Catholic priests in fight. I think th e Noble Lord might have found some inspira - Canada ?— ( Hear, hear .) I n Canada there was a priesthood tion in the writings of that g reat man whom he has so often endowed by Act o f Pa r liament , and not one word had been quoted, and wh ose f ame he so attempts to emulate. I should said on the score of a violation of conscience. In fact, an Hon. have thought that in the position of the Noble Lord — and he Member had that e v ening admitted , that without this it would has a thou g htf u l m i nd and - a noble spirit—Mr. Fox would h a v e be impossible to maintain their colonial dominion. The ques taken that course, which I think the Noble Lord, touched tion of principle, it appeared, had no influence when interest by his high position, and the responsibility of that position, will was concerned.—(Hear, hear.) Then they put the principle still take. His party may have fallen, but it still is one eon - in their pockets and sanctioned the endowment, as it was call e d, netted with the histo of this country. Other parties have of the Roman Catholic religion._ -( Hear, hear.) H e did not also falle n; th ey have been re-constructed, and they have been object to this, he acknowledged the reason for it, and thought destroyed. The Noble Lord is not in so fallen a position as that it a sufficient one; but why not apply the same argument to in which the Right Hon. Gentleman was in 1831. But let the Ireland ?.—( Hear, hear.) lf it could be shown that there were Noble Lord beware of this,—let him beware of rising from in Ireland reasons for believing that they would conciliate the that degraded position again by the same system of tactics. people, that they would very much contribute to the harmony —(Hear.) They m a y b r i n g some short-lived success, hut of the whole people by continuing and increasing this grant, upon conditions which I believe the gallant spirit of the Noble how came it that it had the opposition of persons who could Lord would disdain, —( Hear, hear.) But, Sir, if with re- concede to this principle for the purposes of colonial religion ? regard to this measure respecting Maynooth Ido not despair The truth war, that there was not a single hour of any one of ot the aid of the Roman Catholic gentry of Ireland, or of the their legislative days that they did not break a principle. He Whigs of England, or of those who oppose the measure on ex- supported the grant on the ground that we were of necessity elusive Protestant principles, I think I may the more certainly obliged, so far as the religious teaching of the people was con depend on the support o f those who oppose this measure, be- cerned, to be for the moment passive. We must contribute cause it seeks to pervert principles which it seeks hereafter as well as we could to the due education of the people in to distrust, because it seeks to lower the tone of this country the faith which they held, and in which we had not a and to change the national character of England.—(Hear, right to interfere; all that the State had to inquire into hear.) But, whatever may be the various motives and im- was, were they good citizens ?—( Hear, hear.) And, there pulses which animate these different sections of opinion, there fore, going from one end of the world to the other—to is at least one common ground for co-operation—there is one Canada, to India, to Malta, to the West Indies —in animating principle which is likely to inspire us all. Let us in fact, through the whole of our foreign possessions, we found this )louse re-echo that which I believe to be the sovereign that this was the system pursued; but, on turning to Ireland, sentiment of this country ; let us tell the people in high places he supported the measure on the ground of conciliation. He that cunning is not caution, and that habitual perfidy is n o t h a d once heard an observation m a d e by a Ri g h t H on. Gentle high policy of state. On that ground we may all join. Let man opposite, " that we had come to the end of conciliation." us bring back to this House that which it has for so long a time He was nut going to quarrel with any change of opinion which past been without—the legitimate influence and salutary check experienee might have wrought on the minds ot Right Hon. of a constitutional Opposition.—(Cheers.) That is what the Gentlemen opposite, but he considered that within the last country requires, what the country looks for. Let us do it at two years a,great change had taken place with regard to the once in the only way in which it can he done, by dethroning government of Ireland. We had adopted a different system to this dynasty of deception, by putting an end to the into- that which had prevailed almost during the recollection of every lerable yoke of official despotism and Parliamentary imposture. man in that House ; and he considered this, the last proposed Mr. ROEBUCK said, he approached this question with con- act of the Right Hon. Gentleman, a most marked step in the siderable apprehension as to wheth er h e would be able ade- progress of this system of concession—a conquest over every quately to explain the opinions he held upon it and the reasons successive Ministry that had governed Ireland since the passing for his vote. He felt this the more because it a p peare d to hi m o f t h e R eform Bill. It had sealed upon it the doctrine of con that this was a great national question, and that there was cession, and both the great parties of this country were danger from what they had heard to-night that all considera- now endeavouring to make all necessary concessions to tions of national welfare would be forgott en i n petty pr i vate I reland.—(Hear, hear.) He took this measure as one pique, and personal feeling.—(Cheers.) He did not like on great step in that concession, not because (as had a question like this to see feelings of a merely personal nature been asked) they expected all these great conse introduced to disturb those other considerations which must of quences from this paltry concession—from the difference necessity . in that House, and at thattime , excit e great anx i ety between 9,0001. and 28,000/. a year—for he did not expect in the minds of all men who _e t that th ey had a great duty to this. Ile might be asked, did he expect the priestood of Ire perform to the people,an who did not f orget the interests of land to be bribed to our service by such means ? His answer the people in considerations d f concerning th emse l ves.—( Hear, was, he did not want to do that • but he wanted to make the hear.) And here he would for the l moment ma k e one pas • sur people feel that the system was changed,—that we were endea remark of a critical character. H ate the 3 vouring to do justice to that unfortunate people. Though he e could not congratul • did Hon. Member for Shrewsbury_ on the eff ec t o f the matter of not expect great results—though lie did not hope that thepriests his speech ; it certainly hadnot been characterised by any of might he established in that country immediately, yet he did that remarkable talent which was necessary t o b ear away the hope that when this great measure was communicated in :all open malice which it e v in c ed. —.. (_ Hear, hear.) That s p eec h i ts c i rcumstances , t h e very oppos i t i on to i t mar ki ng h ow s t rong was certainl poor in its performance, however m a li c i ous i n was t h e necess i ty on t h e R i ght Hon. Gentleman ' s m i n d o f suc h its motives.—y (Hear, hear. ) It was said to be something a proposition, this concession would convince the leaders of • .to be praised by one who was himself . worthy of praise • so the Irish people, and address itself to their calm and thinking it was hard to be acsamecuse° char . 1 inconsisten c y b y one who was him- minds and generous feelings, and that their leaders and those self open to he ge. Even if he (Mr. Roebuck) who wished to excite them for purposes of personal ambition were unwilling to use towards the Hon. ;Member those hard would not have them, as they now had, so thoroughly at words which seemed to stand in the place of wit on this occa- command and beck. Ile took this as the greatest boon that sion, the argument, if argument it could be called, which had been conferred, not upon the people of Ireland, but upon formed the SUM and substance of the Hon. Gentleman's speech, the people of England ; for we might depend upon it, that if could be retorted on the Hon. Gentlem an himself. What did assailed to-morrow from abroad, and we were to refuse his charge amount to? Why, that the Right Hon. Baronet this grant, the insulted people of Ireland would recollect had in former times held former opinions, and that with the the insult. They had been told by many ardent persons change of times he bad changed his opinions. The Hon. Gen- that the religion of the Irish was a supestitution and inn tleman himself was open to the sam e charge. Wh at was of their books had been brought forward to the moral, and parts sort of constitutional opposition to which the Hots. Member • it ;and that to endow this college was to endow a col one at rove time aspired? Why, it was not only a constitutional o leoe to teach immorality and superstition. The insulted position, but a liberal one.—(H ear, hear. The great model people o' , f Ireland would ' recollect this • and we should find ou r of his Parliamentary ca ree r was at one ti me t h e Hon. Member danger came not so much from abroad as it was at home. Our for Montrose. Commencing life with these aspirations, he was chief enemies would be at home, and we should be weak, and shortly afterwards to be found i n Baronet. pen opposition behind the open to the insults of the world, because we had been unjust back of the ight Honourable How came he there? to one-third of our countrymen. It was upon this great ground That was an atural question. equally natural one wan, that he maintained the grant proposed by the Right Hon. why did he remain there?—(Hear, his Gentleman. Look at the condition of Ireland at the pres ent brilliant merits ha ve been forgot hear.) If, indeed, n, and the Right Igo-' moment. Suppose that at the present moment England was nourable Baronet has indeed thought of mea sures an d mot in the same situation, and Ireland in a s it uat i on totally at of men—(Cheers and laughter ) --thero . indeed, we may variance with its present condition of great depress'n. Sup. understand the posi t i on of t he Hon, pose they could find some Saxon demagogue —some William nate state of mind—unfortunate, Perhaps, only because be has Long-beard to appeal to the oppressed Saxon and point to his never had afforded to him the opp e • r unity of " coming below Norman spoliator, and appeal to what was in the memory of the gangway. " (Cheers.) But, he asked, were not these many li vin g men, and s p eak o f the desolation which was spread miserable displays on such a question ga_(Hea ' r° Wh e n ;they through the land , of cabins burnt, of field s laid waste, had the country from one end to th e other excited by the thousands of p eo p l e turned out to starve; suppose,was and of deepest and strongest feelings resp ect i ng their religious b slid he c ould p oint to the scene of the patient ancdeserving, and expectatiots, was it not deeplyt o b e regretted t h at boy priest, careless of danger, an d wealth, an 4 - power, I going to these people thus beaten down and trodden to the earth, and ministering to them courageously and bravely all the religious comforts which their condition demanded—suppose a demagogue in England could say these things, would England be quiet under such circumstances ? woul t she not rise up as one man and put down the op pressor ?—(Hear, hear.) And had not the Irish people the same feelings and power as we had? And were we to forget that this hypothetical case wliich he was putting was actually the case in Ireland ? Mr. O'Connell regarded the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet as a'• bidding" against him ; he (Mr. O'Connell) knew very well that if justice were done to Ireland, Ireland would no longer seek to be divided from us, but would be our right hand in the time of war, and our friendly ally in the time of peace. Taking into con sideration the religious and moral aspect of Ireland, he would ask if the proposed grant could be considered in any other light than as a donation given to the people in the best form ? If he were asked the mode in which he could do the greatest good at the least possible cost, he should say it would be by educating the Irish priests. It would be a contribution made in the best form for educating the Irish people. The grant was objected to on the score of religious principle. These arguments were difficult to reply to, and for the most part he could not understand them. They eluded his under standing altogether. He was told the objection was that the teaching at Maynooth was a teaching of error, and they objected to support such teaching. He had in his hand a very remarkable report of a speech made at Liverpool. He wished to call the attention of the House to observations made upon the present question, by a reverend gentleman at Liverpool (as we understood). He really felt it necessary to beg pardon of the House for bringing upon them a mode of treating the present question which was in all respects so objectionable, but yet the manner in which the reve rend gentleman discussed this matter was, in its way, very striking. He said—" Was God's word to be practically supreme, or not ?" and then he went on to observe, that though no part of the Bible was obscure, cer tainly not unintelligible ; yet there were some pictures of the sacred Scriptures so characterised by extreme clearness, that to doubt their meaning was little less than to deny the use of the Bible itself. The Bible prohibited the bowing down to graven images, it prohibited adultery, it prohibited theft. Then he added that inasmuch as Parliament would not think of endowing a college for promoting adultery or theft, so they ought nut to endow a college which inculcated the prac tice of bowing down to graven images. Now he would ap peal to Hon. Members to say, if that was the manner in which such a question as the present ought to be argued— could he or any Member be fairly called upon to meet such arguments ? For his part, he should not attempt to do any thing of the sort. Neither should he seek to answer those who affirmed that their views of that which was the truth ought alone to be accepted as the truth. Who should say what is as the truth as compared with the opinions of other men? For the reasons, then, which he had stated, he gave to the grant his most cordial support. Lord NORTHLAND next rose, but owing to the con fusion which prevailed in the House, the few observations which the Noble Lord made were nearly inaudible. He was understriod to shy that he felt great regret at being thus obliged, for the first time, to differ from her Majesty's Go vernment. On the motion of Mr. HAWES the debate was then ad• journed. AUCTION DUTIES REPEAL BILL. The Auction Duties Repeal Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock. THE MURDER AT HAMPSTEAD. TRIAL OF HOCKER. CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT. OLD COURT. The examination of James Hocker (continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday)—He said he had got rather more than he expected. When he took off his coat, I saw that the sleeve of his shirt was torn. He said that he had been with Sarah Cox and her brother, and had got it torn in romping. I never knew who. Sarah Cox was. The next morning he came over to breakfast, and gave his father a sovereign, his mother one also, and paid me a half-sovereign he had owed me for four or five months. I had lent it to him as he was out of em ployment. He had been out altogether for seven months. On the Saturday night Mr. Watson was in our house, and we had some conversation about the murder. Mr. Watson said it was an awful thing; and I said I heard some people talking about it outside. My brother said we had met to enjoy ourselves, and that was a gloomy subject to talk upon. On Sunday, after coming from chapel, my brother asked me to stay in a littlelonger. Idid so. On the same night I read an account of the murder at a friend's house, and saw that a letter, addressed James Cooper, Hampstead, was ft.und in the pocket of the deceased. I had seen my brother address letters to De larue by the name of Cooper. On the succeeding morning, I woke my brother, and asked him if he knew who was murdered at Hampstead ? He said, no ; and I told him it was poor Delarue He was much agitated, and said poor Delarue! I then went to my father's, and returned to Victoria-terrace almost immediately, whtn I observed that my brother had been crying. Afterwards, when in my father's house, my father said he thought it was his duty to go to see the body. He said he would go. Soon after my mother came in, and said, that the body had been owned by the brother. My brother then said he should not be required, and would not go to see the body. My brother showed me a watch. I had been told long before that he had sold or pledged a watch for Delarue. He gave me to understand that he had redeemed a watch which had been pledged, and I thought the one he showed me was the watch. The watch I ee here is the one ha slanwed me. I recollect the officer Scotney coming into our room. My brother let him in. Scotney asked me if J had a watch. I said no ; and then he asked my brother if he had one. He looked confused, and attempted to reply. I interposed, and my brother then went to the pillow and gave Scotney the watch. He also brought him a watch case, and brought forward three duplicates, one for a watch, one for a ring, and one for a chain. I was surprised at seeing the duplicate for the watch, but my brother said the watch he showed me only came there on Friday morning. I did not see the watch in the course of Friday. I be lieve my brother was on intimate terms with Delarue, sometimes seeing each other two or three times a day fit; four days in the week. I recollect that my brother brought home some three or f o ur pounds, and said that Delarue lent it to him. My brother was a schoolmaster, and could write very well. I don't know that this note is in my brother's handwriting, but it may be. He could write two or three hands. Cross-examined by Mr. CLARKSON—I saw Delarue for the first time about four months ago just at dusk. I have heard my brother address him as Mr. Cooper. My father and mother were aware that my brother had got money frtz. - Delarue. lam not aware that my brother had seen Mr. Delarue on the morning of the 21st. He said that he had not seen him. I knew that Mr. Delarue was anxious to get my brother a situation. I always understood that my brother was very much attached to him. I was working at home with my father as a shoemaker until past eight o'clock. I think that about twelve months ago my brother was paying attentions to a young lady at Hampstead. lam not aware that she was introduced to Delarue. His intimacy with her ceased about the month of June. I never knew her myself. I did not at any time press my brother for money. I would have been contented to have let it re main till he got a situation. lam not aware that Delarue was in the habit of keeping a school. I did not observe any marks upon my brother's dress or person on his return on Saturday morning. There was a light in the room. My brother is twenty-two years old in May. lam his younger brother. Cross-examined by Mr. CHABIBERS—i cannot say how long it was before the 21st of February that Delarue gave my brother the ring for' which the pawnbroker's duplicate has been produced Thomas Hocker examined by Mr. BoDicrx.--I am the father of the prisoner. The prisoner boarded at my house in Charles-street. He was at home from four till about half-past, and when he went out he had on a hat and mac intosh. He said that he was going to get some money that he had previously told us off. He said that he had re ceived a note from Mrs. Edwards, stating that she would be ready to accede to his request for a loan on Sunday night, and he went on the Friday instead. (The prisoner's clothes were p. oduced.) These are the clothes he had on on the Friday night. The ring I now see I found among the cuttings of leather, and it was given up to the police. I remember on the Saturday, after the Friday, seeing the prisoner's shirt. It was torn, and he accounted for it by say mg he had been frolicking the night before. I did not know Delarue. I knew that he went by the name of Cooper, and when I spoke to my son about it, he said that he went by that name merely because he was eccentric. William Watson—l am landlord of the house, No. 17, Charles-street. On the night of the 22d of February 1 was in company with the prisoner and his father, in the latter's house, when I said, "This is a shocking murder at Hamp stead, and no one knows who did it." The father said, " A murder at Hampstead? what a shocking thing." The father then asked how it was done, and I told him that suspicion attached to three soldiers, who were seen in that neighbourhood. The father said, oh ! the cold-blooded rascals. The prisoner said, don't let us talk about that, it's a gloomy subject. Just then, the brother James came in and said that everybody was talking of a gentleman murdered at Hampstead, and a love letter was found in his pocket. The pri soner said, don't let's talk any more about that; I'll sing you a song ; then they sung la song. They afterwards sung hi a s duet; but before they did so, the prisoner showed shirt and coat, which was torn on the left arm. e said, he had been romping with a parcel of girls. I firstheard of the murder on Monday night at 7 o'clock. I gave information to Scotney on Monday evening. Edward Scotney, examined by Mr. Bonius7l am a ser geant in the T division, and in co nse q uence of information I received from Watson, I went to No. ll,Victoria-terrace. I got there about ten o'clock in the morning. A person came s tot d he ,s; door, and I asked if Thomas Hocker lived there? He said 3 e I'm the person. I said I suppose you have heard of the murder of Mr. Delarue at Hampstead? He said I have. And I said then I believe you were very intimate with him. He said yea; and I then informed him that I was a sergeant of police, and that I took him into custody on suspicion of the murder. I then went up to his room. Ills brother was there, and he desired him to get up and dress. I told him I meant to search for a watch which I believed belonged to Mr. Delarue. He said, "You may." Ilis brother said, "Tell the policeman the truth, Tom, he does not believe yon." The prisoner then went to the pillow and gave me the watch out. He said he had got it on Friday morning to pledge for him. He pro duced three other tickets for property which he said belonged to Delarue., Francis Partridge examined by Mr. CHAMBERS—I am an inspector of the A division. I went on the 25th of February with Scotney to apprehend the prisoner. I found In the prisoner's room a pair of trousers between the sacking of the bed, and a coat. I went on the succeeding day and made a further search. I found a shirt wristband, with a portion of the sleeve attached to it There were marks of blood upon it. I got a pair of trousers and waistcoat at 17, Charles. street, Portland -town, where prisoner lived. There were marks of blood upon the waistcoat and on the left sleeve of the coat. I found also bottles containing certain kinds of writing fluid and note-paper in the room at the father's house. I also found wafers marked with the letter F. I see that the wafer on this note is a duplicate of those found in the father's house. The note-paper also corresponds with that found by me. I received a sovereign and a half from the prisoner's father. Inspector Shackell, of thq Detective Police, produced the mackintosh found in the father's house. In consequence of certain information, I searched the prisoner's lodgings along with Inspector Haynes, .and got, from the parents of the Prisonira shirt and pair ofstickbp; all Stained with blood. I also found in the room the bill r of the wa cod and 1 identified as that belonging to Delarue. Inspector Haynes, of the Detective P o • ; went with another officer and searched the room, sviiere he found a coat button. He afterwards went to the Ilotis6 of Correction and ordered the prisoner to take off his coat. Ile found the sleeve stained with blood, and the left-hand pocket bloody, as if the hand had been thrust into it. Ha:compared SS '4 - 1 4 the button found in thefield, as also that found in the room with certain buttons torn off his coat, and they agreed. He also examined the prisoner's trousers and drawers, and dis covered that the left knee of either was stained with blood. The prisoner had no wound on any part of his person. Cross-examined by Mr. CnaexsoN—The buttons are of a very common character, and may be met with every day. Daniel Delarue examined by Mr. Bonnue—l live at 55, Whittlebury-street, Euston-square—l lived with my bro ther. I have been at the inquest, and saw his body there. The watch produced was the property of my brother. It had a gold chain, which he wore round his neck. I also know the ring, which I observed him wear on the Sunday I last saw him. Susan Kitchener, servant at the house, 55, Whittlebury street—l saw Mr. Dela r u e on Friday, he 21st February. He said he was going out, and would return in an hour and a half. He told me to keep his fire in. I know he had a watch, and I saw it on him about nine o'clock in the morn ing. I saw the gold chain hanging from the pocket as late as two o'clock. I should not know the watch. It was a silver one. James Euston, police-constable in the D divison—l was in the cell with the prisoner, and he said, without my asking, that he wished to see the waiter of the Swiss Cottage. I tokl him he could see the gaoler. He did see him ; and, after he was gone, the prisoner said that he had gone to the Swiss Cottage a quarter of an hour after the murder, that he called for a glass of rum and water, and paid for it. He said also, " There, that Baldock did not know me ; I was five-and twenty minutes in the field." That was just before the first examination. Sarah Ann Cox, examined by Mr. CHAMBERS—I knew Hocker on the 21st February. I had known him seven months. I did not see him on that night at all, nor for a month before. I did not see him romping with any girl in my company. Eleanor Edwards—l reside at 6, Bath-place. I have known the prisoner forabout ten weeks. He never made ap plication to me for a loan of money. I had no disposition to lend him any. BY Mr. Justice COLERIDGE—I did not know any members of his family. James Fell, Chief Clerk at Marylebone Police-court, pro duced the examinations taken at that court, and the few words said by the prisoner at the close of each examination. The letter signed " Caroline" was also put in and read. This closed the case for the prosecution. Mr. Ceauiesos'then said that his Learned Brother, Mr. Ballantine, and himself had attended for the defence, at the request of the Sheriffs of London, but as the prisoner him self had expressed a wish to address a few words to the gen tlemen of the jury, he trusted their Lordships would allow him to do so. Mr. Justice COLERIDGE had no objection, and informed the prisoner that if he wished five minutes leizure before making his defence, he was at liberty to retire for that time. The prisoner said, " Thank yon, my Lord, I should like just five minutes ;" and so saying he turned away and stepped lightly down stairs into the passage that communicates be tween the prison and the dock. On his re- appearance he maintained the same unconcerned and flighty manner that had marked his conduct up to this point throughout the whole of the trial. He advanced to the centre of the dock, holding in his hands three or four sheets of manuscript. He then folded his arms and stood for nearly a minute perfectly cool and impassable, as if waiting for silence to be restored. He leant over the dock and consulted for a moment with some person in the Court, and again drew himself up with the greatest possible calmness and composure. Another interval of about a minute of painful suspense ensued whilst he stood turning over his papers. He appeared as perfectly col lected as any one of the witnesses who had appeared against him, and it was observable, from the steadiness with which he - held the papers, that not a nerve trembled. In a clear, though a somewhat mincing, and evidently in a very laboured tone, he then addressed the jury in the following terms, reading from the manuscript " I beg to read to your Lordships and to the gentlemen of the jury two statements that I have furnished to my counsel through the medium of my solicitor. I have very carefully perused the depositions against me, and I find nothing in them to the truth of which' —; [At this point the prisoner hesitated, as if unable to read the manuscript. He repeated, "And Ifind nothing in them." He again stopped and gave utterance to a subdued but impa tient expression, as if annoyed at himself for not being able to read more readily. After another lapse of nearly a minute he recommenced.] " I have very carefully perused the depositions against me, and I see nothing in them of a serious and weighty nature to the truth of which I object. I wish to communicate to you all I have to say as calmly and dispassionately as possible, and to that end I shall not attempt the least apology or de fence. I will state to you every circumstance connected with the depositions, leaving it for you to say whether they are consequential or not. The two grand questions are—how came my clothes to be saturated with blood ; and, how did I com e into possession of the property of the deceased? The former I can answer satisfactorily to my own conscience; but no thing on earth shall cause me to divulge it, at least on this side of my trial. It were an easy matter for me to fabricate —to make a lie; but I will not do it; and to prove to you • that I am so far conscientious, I have amongst some pri vate letters here, which I have had conveyed to me since I came hither, one in which a desire is expressed to account for the manner in which my clothes were so besmeared; and the person in his devotedness to tee offers to forswear him self; but I would rather have this mysterious part of the affair remain as it is, by leaving it in the hands of my counsel. I know while doing so I endanger my own safety, but I have urgent reasons for doing so. If this gloomy affair terminate adversely, I die a martyr; if otherwise, by my taking a de fensive course, I live a traitor. This sounds paradoxical, pro bably, to your ears, but such is the fact, of whi c h I excuse and pardon your disbelief until it be further evidenced to you. I will therefore quit this part of the subject with this remark : after such a painful and ignominious exposure of everything connected with my present and former circum stances, together with every vile and contumelious insult and misrepresentation, I can have no desire to survive the issue, be It ever so favourable to my Innocence. I ant ruined inevitably and irrevocably, and I am too much the Englishman to fear death, whatever form it may assume. But more to the matter. The deceased, Delarue, had frequently offered his services to me in the way of pecuniary assistance. (I ought, perhaps, to have told you that I had known the deceased for nearly two years.) . It was about six months after our acquaintance that he made the first friendly overture of the kind, and it was something like two months following that I ac cepted it. He at that time gave rue 41. 10s., which was the whole of - the contents of his purse, accompa nied by the words, ' Hocker, never see me again if you once venture to return me this trifle; I am no friend of yours in your estimation if you view it as a loan merely.' Last August I kept away from him for a month or five weeks, on account of the shabby condition of my apparel. He took it unconfiding on my part that I did not acquaint him with my embarrassed circumstances, and lie then good heartedly insisted on my turning to the best advantage 51., which he threw at me, wishing he could punish' me in the same way right on for a whole day. Such was the nature of our _intimacy. I have had property belonging to deceased of considerable value. A large telescope—l should say worth 71. or 51.—also a smaller one, and an opera 61ass, microscope, &c.—all of which he lent me at different times, and which I believe are to be found at his apartments now. My parents, and several others, remember to have seen them. The deceased also entrusted me with a silver watch, a silver watchguard, and part of a diamond ring. The part which containedthe diamond only remained. I had to dispose of them for 31. 17s. The deceased was anxious to make up a certain sum of money by a given time, and I understood the request as a delicate wish for me to pledge the articles for him. I got them pawned at a Mr. Richardson's, Henry street, Portland-town, for the required amount. The de ceased gave me the duplicates, which I handed over to the officers when they searched my apartment. How I came with the watch and ring which the brother of deceased identified was in-the following way :—ln our engagements of late deceased had often been half an hour behindhand. His watch, for some time past, had performed irregularly. He frequently struck it with his walking-cane, in a momentary ill-humour, which accounts for the seconds pointer being gone. He gave it to me to be cleaned and repaired for him, at the same time producing his ring, which had always been too large for his little finger, to be lessened, and for the brilliant to be reset, which it needed, in consequence of an attempt to prove its genuineness, which he effected by removing the brilliant from its setting, and striking it with a hammer, having first placed it on a stone for that purpose. He had used all his influence towards putting me into a comfortable situation, but had failed until the morning of the day on which he was mur dered. I forgot to state that it was on this morning that de ceased gave the watch and ring to me. On that morning he saluted me in a pleasant air, and said he brought me good news he hoped. He then led me to think I should be a little better to do in a few days, but that he would acquaint me with more anon. He provided me at the same time with (what indeed I had for some time expected) 121. in gold. The deceased had so often lent me money that I was ashamed to mention his name again to my parents; I, therefore, forged a falsehood, and represented Mrs. Edwards as the donor. I was in possession of the money in the morning, and that ac pinaretnhtso e th v a en t in l g m . m ight h co h a v n e ts it io b r by seven o'clock in the evening of the Friday I went to th e S wiss mcyalling positivelyo n Mar. assu ri n g Int:dneg-a my Tavern, and called for rum and water. I stayed there nearly three quarters of an hour. There was another man— apparently a gentleman — in the roo m durin g the whole of the time, to whom I read portions of the day 's newspaper. A candle was on the table, close by me, while 1 was reading. It was a bitterly cold night, and the fire was burning cheer fully. I stood in the front of it for some time.' Had my , clothes at that time been disordered or bloody, the gentle man or the waiter must have seen it. The waiter remarked at the inquest, after failing to identify me, that the person who ordered the rum and water had white hands ; he meant, at least, that they were not bloody. If I went anywhere to e 4", wash them, why suffer my clothes to remain as they were, and have the temerity to enter a lighted public-house so near the spot? But it is not my place to write in this manner. I will proceed further. After I left tlae tavern I directed my path across the fields, in a line with the spot where the deed was committed, for it lay in my way to the Hampstead road, whither I was going. As I approached Haverstock field, whistling a merry tune, a policeman ran out from the hedge, and accosted m e with the words ' Young gentleman, sad work here; here's a dead man.' I immediately scaled the fence with him, and asked him if he was sure the man was dead ? The policeman (Baldock) said, ' There was no doubt of it.' I felt the pulse of the deceased. It was still. He remarked that the deceased was a young man. It was an awful spectacle, and we both wept. I felt quite sick and chilly, and told the policeman r should shortly take some brandy. I proposed to him to do the same. 1 continued with him and the deceased, without offering to withdraw, for forty minutes. I told Baldock that some months back I had_ been in the habit of crossing' illes — adiaCeni field from Hampstead several times in a week at a late hour in the evening, and that I usually carried a pocket stiletto as a life-preserver, which I showed him, asking him whether the possession of such an instru ment were illegal or not. He said he thought not. He re marked that the blade was very bright. Baldock asked the time of the night. I looked at the watch which has since been produced, and told him. Sergeant Fletcher and some four or live other policemen then arrived with a stretcher, Almost all of them addressed me on seeing me on the spot with Baldock. I accompanied the policemen, four of whom carried the corpse. I asked one of them if it were necessary for me still to .attend them ; he said, if I could give no in formation, it would be useless. I had made an appointment to be in Portlaud-place:that evening. 1 found that I had al ready exceeded my time through remaing so long with Baldock. I left them with the corpse when I had got as far as Church-row, Hampstead, and hastened towards my desti nation." [This appeared to be the conclusion of the first statement, and the prisoner took up another paper. After a moment ary pause, he proceeded " I wish to explain to you as nearly as my feelings will suffer use, the nature of my present trial, and to show you, that to attempt an extrication out of my . misery, by a full disclosure of everything collected with Ow bad afalr, WQIII4 TIIF SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL l2, 1845. w ~` \