The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-20 00:00:00

Do you think the same effect would be produced by an imposition of a duty upon American timber ? Yes, I think it would increase the importation from the north of Europe, if the foreign duty remained in the same state as it does now. •1 think 'a small duty upon the American timber would produce a correc tive upon the state of the market, which, from the facility of bringing it from the colonies, has been glutted, the importations having been unusually large for the last three or four years. Do you consider those importations have arisen from the facility of importation, or from any other cause ? I think the excessive importation has arisen from the total want of employment of the ships of this country; and from their not having been able to find any other means of employment, but to have recourse to the colonies to bring timber. Then you think that the ships have created the trade, and not the trade the ships ? Ido think so certainly; a great part of the trade has been carried on by the owners of' the ships, and not by mercantile men connected with the colonies. They were obliged to have recourse to the trade with the colonies to keep their ships and seamen in subsistence. Do you happen to know to what purposes the American yellow pine is chiefly employed in this country ? I have no practical knowledge upon that subject. We are in the habit of selling it, and I believe it is used for all subordinate purposes ;- its uses are very general in London, for the purposes of packages, and all inferior works of every description. What is the proportion of yellow pine, as compared with any other description Of pine brought from America ? I should think the yellow pine constitutes nearly the whole of the quantity that is brought. There is a small quantity of red pine brought, but I do not think it amounts to one tenth of the whole importation. At what difference of price do you conceive that the American yellow pine Would be preferred' for those inferior purposes for which it is now used ? At present the market is in a very extraordinary state. 'We are obtaining only for the best St. John's timber, and timber from Illiramachi, 31. a load ; this does not leave to the importer - more than about 12s. for its first cost, the expenses of getting cut the wood from America being about 15s. or 16s. per ton. This is a state in which the trade could not continue, if no alteration was to take place ? No, it could not ; the importations have been so immensely large, that it would be useless to bring timber here, when it was producing a loss ; the increase during the last two years has been excessive. What effect could be produced on the consumption of American timber by a given duty imposed upon it, say Os. ? I think it would have one very beneficial advantage, inasmuch as it would correct the importation of a very large propor tion of very ordinary timber brought from America, and produce a beneficial ad vantage ultimately. Supposing the duty was extended to 15s. what do you think would be the effect of that ? Ido not think that the trade of that country would bear 15s. Do you mean by that, that the consumption in this country would be completely checked ? I think it would, because the quality of the yellow pine of America is not considered good. Ido not know whether it is from prejudice, or from what cause, but it certainly will not bear a duty of more than 10s. as com pared with the Baltic timber at the present existing duty. What is the present difference between theprices of American and Baltic timber? 31. ss. ; the present price of St. John's timber is 31. and Memel timber 61. ss. Then if the price of American timber was increased to 51. 15s. do you consider that the consumption would be equal to what it is at present ? Ido not think it would be used at all. At what difference of price do you think the consumptiOn of American timber will remain as at present in the market? At a difference of 555. between the American and Baltic timber. . Presuming that the timber cost twenty shillings a load in America, that the freight is 21. 10s. and that the other charges are ten shillings, making 41. and to that ten shillings should be idded as a duty, making the price of timber in this market 41. 10s. and presuming that no alteration takes place in the duties upon foreign timber, and that the price of Baltic remains at 61. ss. do you think at those proportions the consumption of American timber in this market would be equal to the present consumption ? Ido not ; I think if the price of American timber was 41. 10s. and the Baltic at 61. ss. from the difference of quality (1 am speaking of the yellow pine) the consumption of American timber would be con siderably less. To what extent do you think the consumption would be diminished ? It is not possible for me to say ; the state of the trade is so extremely unnatural now, that we cannot at all judge of the precise effect that the change would have. I should think that the importations of the last two years must have exceeded the consumption by at least a hundred thousand loads ; I should think there is that quantity in the mar ket unsold, the timber of the growth of difrerent countries. I would just mention, that in taking the criterion of timber,_ I observe it is generally spoken of as Canada ; the proportion of timber that comes from Canada bears so small a proportion to the general trade, that I think is a matter of very considerable importance to be under stood ; —the importation from Canada is only about one-fourth of the whole im portation from the British provinces. Do you include deals in that ? Yes, I include the whole ; Nova Scotia and its dependencies, produce about one-ninth, and New Brunswick about six-ninths ; it has been stated that much of the timber comes from the United States ; I wish to explain, that what comes from the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, is entirely cut within the British colonies, and has no American interest in it, in any manner or shape whatever. Do you not think, that a difference of.thirty shillings in the price would be sufficient to protect the consumption of the American timber for the inferior pur poses for which it is generally applied ? Ido not. Has not a great fall taken place in the price of American timber within the last two years, but not a correspondent fall in the price of Baltic ? In 1817, the price of Memel timber was 61. 10s. in 1819 it was 61. and has continued from 61. to 61. ss. ; the price of timber from the lower provinces in 1817, was 41. 10s. in 1819, 31. 10s. and in the present year it is 31. Then it appears, that a reduction in the price of American timber during the last three years has taken place, of thirty shillings a load, and of the Baltic not above ten shillings ;is not that so ? Yes. Has not this fact led to a great increase in the consumption of American timber? I should think it has, very considerably. Are there not certain purposes for which American timber is now used, that it would be still applied to, such as packing cases, picture frames, window frames, if the prices were equal, or nearly so ? I think it would be always used for those particular purposes, as it is generally understood to work easier, and is therefore always more desirable for persons in those branches of trade. Have you formed an opinion of the proportion of the whole timber consumed in London for those purposes ? I have no means of ascertaining that particular point _ _ - Are you not aware, that the consumption of timber for those purposes is very considerable ? Yes, it is very considerable, particularly in all cases where articles are required to be exported, and packing cases of every description ; and it is ex tremely desirable, because it is of such a description that those articles can be made with it at a low rate. You have stated, that you estimate the stock of all kinds of timber at present in this country, to be about a hundred thousand loads ? I should think it is. What do you consider to be the usual annual import of all kinds of timber ? Upon looking at the state of the trade for nine years previous to 1790, the whole import of timber was about 220,000 loads ; from 1815 to 1817, the importation had increased upon the average of those three years to 243,800 loads, a trifle more or less ; in 1819 it had increased to 85,700 loads ; in the first period of average '207,700 came from the North of Europe ; in the next period 1816 to 1819, it had decreased t 0107,000 loads from the north ofEurope ; in the last year it was 104,865; SO that during the last four or five years, the timber trade from the Baltic has re mained stationary, notwithstanding the large imports from the British colonies. Then in point of fact, it appears from your statement, that the present stock of timber in the kingdom is little more than three months ordinary consumption ? Yes, I do think so. Are you of opinion that three months supply is an excessive stock ? No, Ido not think it is a very large stock ; it certainly is larger than what we have usually had at this season of the year, but I understand that there remains a very large quantity of timber in the colonies, which was not got home last year, owing to the very depressed state of the trade. Was the quantity left in the colonies larger than usual ? Much larger. Are you acquainted with the probable quantity of timber that will be cut in the colonies this season ? I have been informed that it will be very much less than that which had been cut the preceding year. Then are you of opinion that the surplus left over last season, and the quantity cut in the winter, will form more than an ordinary supply ? Yes, I think it will. In what proportion more ? Perhaps lam not precisely in a condition to answer that question, but I am informed that nearly a hundred and thi r ty th ousan d l oa d s over f the last year's cutting, which is about one-half of the whole impor tation of the past year. Are the statements of quantities with which the Committee have been favoured, made from official documents, or from your own observation and information ? They are taken from the documents which have been presented to the House of Lords, and which are added to the Appendix of their Report. Has your evidence, which has been given before this Committee, a particular reference to the London market, or has it been given with a reference to the general market of the kingdom, and to the general state of the trade ? With reference to the general market of the kingdom, and to the general state of the trade. Are you acquainted with the relative value of the North American timber and ,the Baltic in the Liverpool market? Not so decisively as to be able to speak to it lam more particularly acquainted with the London market. You have stated in a former answer, that the expence of cutting timber or getting it out of the woods was eighteen shillings per load; has not the great demand for that timber caused an increase in the expense of getting it out of the woods during the last two years ? 1 have understood the loss to the colonies has been excessively great, and I presume it has arisen more particularly from the depressed state of the market, than from any larger expense incurred by getting it out of the wood. Is the Committee to understand, that there has been no increase of the expense in getting the wood to what it was previously ? I have understood that the ex penses of getting timber were about 111 s. per load; I cannot answer the question precisely. _ _ _ Are you acquainted with red pine timber, brought from below the lower ports ? Yes. Is it equal to the red pine brought from Canada ? Yes. To what port do you particularly refer ? To St. John's. Are you acquainted with the red pine exported from the port of Mirarnachi ? No ; our transactions are principally with the port of St. John's. What were the current rates of freight from the lower ports of America, during the last season ? It varied from 40s. to 455. all charges included. What, from the higher ports ? I believe from 455. to 555. What from Norway or - Memel ? I cannot tell, I am not particularly ac quainted with the Baltic trade ; I have only been in the habit of exporting there. Do you consider a diminution of the'difference of the duty between the Baltic and North American timber would be likely to produce an increased or decreased consumption of timber generally in the United Kingdom ? I think if there was a‘cleaeaie of duty upon the Baltic timber, it would d&rease the use of American timber. 1 should presume that the wants of the country would remain as before, and I should think the quantity of timber that would be consumed would be the same. What effect, do you think, would be produced by the diminution of the duties upon the Baltic timber, or the imposition bf a duty upon the American timber, in the exports of the manufactures of the country? I think it would snake no ma terial difference : for if you decreased the duty upon Baltic timber, so as to occa sion any decrease of the importation of American timber, the exports would pro bably increase to the north of Europe, while they would decrease to the colonies. Then you are of opinion that a decrease in the amount of the duties upon the Baltic timber would increase the exportation of our manufactures to that country ? A diminution in the duty on the wood, in all probability, would increase the means whereby foreigners would be enabled to take away manufactures from this country. Do you think it would produce that effect ? No, Ido not; I think that the quantity of British manufactures that would go to the North of Europe would not be increased by any further importation from the North of Europe : I think the amount of British manufactures and articles which are usually taken by that country would not be materially affected by any alteration of the duties on wood. Do you think, with respect to Russia, Sweden, and Prussia, that the increased means of paying for our manufactures would not induce an increased consumption? I believe the woollen manufactures, in Prussia are in such a state as to enable them to compete with us completely ; I speak of it particularly, because we arc in the habit of having transactions with the United States of America, and I find that a very considerable proportion of fine woollens, and of low woollens and stuffs, are absolutely shipping from the Netherlands, and from ports contiguous, part of which I understand to come from the interior of Germany, and from Saxony particularly, so that a portion of the trade which we have been in the habit of transacting with the United States is finding its way from the North of Europe ; I therefore conceive that their manufactures are competing very much with the manufactures of this country, and consequently they would not come to us to receive a supply of those articles which they can produce from their own manufactures at home. Do you know whether the export to those countries has been increasing or diminishing within the last few years ? I cannot give a direct answer to that question ; but, contrasting the trade with the North of Europe upon an average of the last six years, it appears that the amount of exports to the British colonies exceeded the amount of the exportation of British and Irish produce and manu factures to Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Prussia altogether. Do you in that estimate exclude Russia ? No. Do you in that estimate also include those provinces belonging to this country in North America, from which we do not bring any considerable quantity of tim ber ? I•have not included the province of Newfoundland. The trade of Russia in timber has not decreased at all; for, upon an examination of the facts, I think that the trade in timber with Russia is pretty nearly as it has been for several years ; therefore it occurs to me, as far as the trade of timber is concerned, Russia would not take a larger proportion of manufactures than she does at present. Do you think this country, in the case of a diminution of the duties, would take a greater quantity of the superior wood from the North which we now im port ? Yes, I think it would. Will you state, if you have the means of doing it, what is the comparative ad vantage derived to the different interests of this country concerned with the wood trade, to the colonies from that trade ? From looking to the amount of importa tions of 1819; I should state that the British shipping interests would take :the amount of about 630,0001. that the incidental charges would be 84,0001. and that the amount remaining to the British colonies would be only 168,0001. taking the &average price of timber at 63 shillings : I merely state that, for the purpose of showing the respective interests that will be affected by any alteration in the opera tion of the trade. In the statement which you have just made, the British colonist does not ap pear to be the person most interested ? No ; the person who will be the most affected, in whatever way this question may be decided, is the person connected with the British shipping ; the colonists certainly will very materially be affected by the question ; they have no other resource but this country to derive their sup plies from : if that branch of trade is destroyed, they will neither be enabled to take our manufactures, nor to pay us for those which they have already received ; nor will our ships find employment (the number of vessels being so great that were left on the hands of the ship-owners subsequent to the war) but by this carry ing trade of timber. In the commencement-of your evidence you have stated, that it was impossible to continue the present extent of British shipping in that trade, because it produced an extent of supply of American timber in this country, which rendered the sales very disadvantageous; when you make that statement, how do you reconcile it with the opinion that this trade can be carried on to its present extent with advan tage to the British owners ? I think it cannot be carried on to the same extent with advantage to the British owners ; but I think if any sudden stop was put to the operation of the trade, it would affect, very materially, both the colonist and the British ship-owners ; I state that, because I think, if a very heavy duty was imposed upon the British timber, it would prevent the importations taking place to this country ; and they fear it in the colonies themselves, because they have, in all their letters to us on the subject of this trade, expressed a hope, that whatever was done they should be made acquainted with it, to have an opportunity of placing themselves in a situation so as not to be destroyed by the operation of the trade. In the present year they have a large portion of timber remaining over the last year's cutting ; and they certainly will be placed in a very unpleasant situation if any operation was to occur that was to put an entire stop to that trade which they had been carrying on. I think if any duty was imposed, or any dimi nution of duty was to take place immediately, that it would also tend to prevent the usual supplies going out to the colonies ; I speak practically, because cer tainly if any operation was to take place that was to prevent the colonists getting home the timber they 'have already lying by them, we should not ship the usual supplies we have been in the habit of doing. Did you send out to the colonists the report of the Lords committee of the last sessions ? Yes ; it was sent out, I believe, by the colonial agent. From what you have stated, then, it is quite impossible, whatever may be the future views of the British colonists, that they could expect to maintain a trade in timber to the extent that they have maintained it during the last two years ? Cer tainly, it would be injurious, inasmuch as a much larger quantity was imported than was really wanted for consumption. If any regulations were to take place, by a diminution of British shipping, or by other causes, which produced a more regulated importation of the British Ame rican timber into this country, would not the British American timber, well squared and prepared for sale, sell at a nearer proportionate price to the Baltic timber than it now does ? If timber from the British colonies was regulated by a duty, sufficient to prevent the importation of the worst species of timber which comes from the British colonies, I think it would he a corrective of the evil of which we have now to complain ; for it has been by the introduction of timber of every description, in consequence of there being no duty at all, that I conceive the present importation has been so excessive upon the market ; and I conceive that a small duty will correct that evil. If the importation, 'then, of American timber were confined to the better de scriptions, as you now anticipate, at what proportionate difference of price do you conceive that such American timber would sell, with reference to Baltic timber ? I have before stated, I believe, that my opinion is that there should he a differ ence of 21. 15s. per load between the relative value of the British American timber and the timber from the Baltic. Would not that be with a view to give more of a monopoly in the market, than to place the timber from the two countries upon a competition ? I think a small duty would have one bendificial effect ; because it would prevent the ships going out to the colonies without the intervention of a regular merchant; it would pre vent them from taking that supply of ordinary timber which they now take from necessity ; for when they go out for cargoes to particular ports, they are obliged to take a supply of whatever qualities may be there, and that has produced an unplea sant result in the market, and which exists upon the state of the trade at present. In 1810 a protecting duty was imposed, in favour of American timber, by doubling the then existing duties upon Baltic timber, making the duty at that time 41s. a load ; if the duties were now reduced to that rate from 655. what would be the effect upon the trade with America ? I think if the foreign duty was dimi nished in that proportion, we should have no trade in timber from the British colonies. [Adjourned till Monday, at one o'clock. Lance, 19 di‘: Februarii, 1821. THOMAS WILSON, Esquire, in the chair. John Bainbridge, Esq. called in ; and further examined. Supposing a duty of 10s. laid upon American timber, or ss. laid on, and 58. taken off foreign timber, in your opinion, would that make any difference in the consumption in the market ? No, Ido not think it would ; if ss. were taken off foreign timber, and ss. were put on American timber, I think it would produce a corrective in the exportation of timber from the British colonies, which, owing to its being brought here in a much worse state of manufacture than timber ought to be brought to this country, I think it would prove a corrective to its being brought to this country in an improper state. Do you man a duty of ss. and a diminution of ss. ? Yes ; if that relative proportion was adhered to, think a ss. duty on the timber from the colonies would prevent the importation of very bad timber. Then the committee are to understand, that it is your opinion that the same opinion would be produced by ss. laid on and ss. taken off, or 10s. laid on the American timber, and more taken off the foreign timber ? I think it would pro duce no effect upon the general consumption of timber in this country ; I think the general consumption would be the same. Supposing 10s. laid on, or nothing laid on American timber, and 10s. taken off Baltic timber, in either case preserving the same difference of cost, would either result produce different effects ? I think the taking off 10s. from the Baltic tim ber would produce a different effect to the laying on 10s. on American timber. State the difference. The nearness of the Baltic to this market would give them a decided preference, if 10s. were taken off that timber, compared with the distance of voyage, and the expences that we are put to in bringing the timber from America. You will recollect, that the question goes to preserve the same distinction be tween the two, that is, a difference of 10s. a load, than what possible increased facility could be given to Baltic timber, where 10s. is taken off, when no-duty is to be laid on North American, compaied with the state in which the trade would be in, if 10s. were laid on American, and no duty laid on the Baltic. I think if you took 10s. off Baltic timber, I should certainly say, as a matter of course, that the price of the London markets would be 10s. lowa than it now is, and if so, that it would preclude the importation of American timber to a certain degree. If a duty of ten shillings was laid on American timber, would not that advance the price of American timber in the same proportion, while the Baltic would under go no material alteration in the quantity imported ? I think not ; 'I think it woutd decrease the importation of the timber from America, because a large proportion of the timber now brought to the country would be prevented coming. Would not that tend still farther to advance the price ? I think it would advance the' price of American timber certainly, but I think it would decrease the importa tion ; lam of opinion that you cannot advance the price of the article here, unless you decrease the importation. Do you not think that the duty would fall on the consumer? No, Ido not, indeed. Are you acquainted with the various costs of timber in the ports of the Baltic ? No, I am not. Can you state to the committee what was the shipping price of timber in the ports of New Brunswick and Canada, during the last season ? It has varied excessively in the province of New Brunswick ; during the last season there has been an unusual scarcity of money in the colonies; during the last season there has been an excessive depression in their trade from peculiar circumstances ; in consequence of that depression, timber has been purchased at all prices ; even as low, I believe, as ten shillings per load, from ten to twenty shillings per load. Do you think twenty shillings a load a fair remunerating price to the shipper in the British colonies? Yes, I have been so informed. You mean by that in tbe New Brunswick colony ? Yes. Can you state what you consider would be a fair remunerating price for yellow pine timber shipped from Canada ? We have very little connexion in Canada ; I cannot therefore decisively answer that question ; I believe twenty-five shillings per load. You know that the expenses are much more in bringing timber out ? Yes. Have you any establishment yourself in the lower provinces ? No ; we are commission merchants entirely, both export merchants and importing from the colonies on commission. Do you not think that commercially speaking, a duty of five shillings on the American timber, and a reduction of five shillings on the Baltic timber, would be more favourable to the trade than the imposition of a duty of ten shillings on Ame rican timber only? Ido decidedly; for I think that a duty of five shillings only levied upon the timber of the colonies, would be much more easily arranged, and prove more beneficial to the general interest of the colonial trade and the shipping. William Smith, Esquire, called in; and examined. WHERE do you reside ? In Liverpool. What business are you engaged in ? As a merchant generally, and as ship owner, but principally in the Nova Scotia and New Brunswick trade. How long have you been engaged in the trade with New Brunswick and Nova Scotia ? About thirty years. Were you resident'aiiy part of that period in Nova Scotia or in that country ? Twenty-two years. Whilst resident in that country, were you particularly engaged and acquainted with the timber trade of those colonies ? Very much -during the latter part that I resided there. Can you state to the committee, what is the general character given to the timber of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick in the Lancashire market, compared with that of the other colonies, and also the Baltic ? The quality of New Bruns wick timber is superior to Nova Scotia, but inferior to the Baltic. _ _ Are you acquainted with the fact, whether red pine timber is shipped from New Brunswick as well as yellow ? There is but a very small proportion of red brought from that country. Is the red pine of New Brunswick superior to the yellow ? Yes ; it is of a su perior quality. - Are you acquainted with the purposes for which the yellow pine of the British North American colonies is in general use in Lancashire; if so, will you have the goodness to state them ? I understand it is used for a variety of purposes, par ticularly for packing cases ; in Manchester, a great quantity of it is used for that pnrpose; and it is used very much in the inside of buildings. Are you aware that it is used for other purposes ? It is used for finishing the cabins of ships, and for purposes of that kind. Is it used for any part of the work connected with warehouses or cotton fac tories? I believe for all parts, except for the beams of those in which ,great strength is required. Mien is the committee to understand from your answer, that the timber of the North American colonies, with the exception of beams, and for other purposes where great strength is required, is in general use in the county of Lancaster? I understand so. Have any instances come within your knowledge of the timber of North America when so used in buildings, perishing prematurely from dry rot or other causes ? No ; never. Have you had occasion to hear of such instances from others ? I have heard of the dry rot appearing in warehouses and other buildings in Lancashire, but when examined, it proved to be the timber of Dantzic and not of America. You are then impressed with the opinion that the timber of the Baltic is equally liable to the dry rot with the timber of America ? So lam informed. During your residence in the North American colonies, had you occasion to, know any instances of the durability of the yellow pine timber of those colonies, when used for the erection of buildings there ? I know there are many houses standing in Halifax, that were erected several years before I went there, which is upwards of thirty-six years ago. Were those houses built entirely of timber ? Altogether of timber. Have they undergone any considerable or material repairs ? The shingles and clap-boards which are used, which are outside, require to be renewed once in twenty or twenty-five years. Is not the lower frame or foundation of those houses so constructed of timber, also of the same material ? The whole frame is of timber, but there is brick or stone for the foundation. To what height is that raised ? About four feet. Then has that part of the frame which is immediately laid on the stone or brick wall, been found to decay when the other part has not ? No ; I have never known an instance of its decay. How long is it since you were in America? I left in 1807. Have you any buildings of that description in Halifax, which are your own property? Yes. Are those built of timber ? Yes ; but they were erected after I went to the country._ How long is it since they were erected? About thirty or thirty-two years. Is it your belief that those buildings arc in good and substantial state? I believe they are. Will you state to the committee, what is the present value of the yellow pine of New Brunswick in the Liverpool market? About seventy shillings a load. Can you inform the committee what is the present price of the Memel or Dantzic timber in the Liverpool market ? 61. ss. per load. Are you acquainted with the proportion, that the measure of Liverpool and the measure of London, with respect to timber, bear to each other ? The measure in Liverpool contain s a gr eater q u a ntity, by 10 per cent, than the measure in the London market. Are both kinds of timber equally in demand at those places ? No ; American timber is in much greater demand than the Baltic, in the Liverpool market. At what reduction in the price of Baltic timber do you think it would be equal in demand with that which comes from America ? I should suppose about 11. ss. per load reduction. Is the committee to understand, that, in your opinion, if an advance in the price of American timber, of IL ss. per load, or a reduction in the price of the Baltic of 11. ss. per load were to take place, both descriptions of timber would then be equal in demand ? It is impossible to answer that question ; I think it would increase the consumption of the one, and decrease the consumption of the other. If a duty equal to that were laid upon the one, or that much taken from the other, it would be very injurious, in my opinion, to the shipping interests of this country. Are you of opinion, that if a duty. 'of 10s. per load was laid upOn Ame rican timber, or 10s. per load taken off Baltic, or ss. laid on the one, and ss. taken off the other, the demand for American timber would be materially affected by such an arrangement ? Ido not think it would be much altered in either case. Are you of opinion, that were a scale made of 15s. in the place of 10s. and applied in either of the ways suggested by the last question, that a material defi ciency would be produced in the demand of American timber? It would no doubt lessen the demand for American timber, and increase that for Baltic in some de gree • but Ido not think it would have a material effect. Would 20s. have a material effect ? I think it would. You think that the point at which it would begin to have a material effect would be somewhere between 15s. and 20s. ? Yes. At 255. of course the effect would be still greater ? No doubt it would. Would 255. have the effect of driving the American timber entirely out of con sumption in your neighbourhood No. Would 3(ls. ? It is used for a great variety of purposes, being soft and easily wrought, and what difference of price would occasion a decrease of consumption, it is impossible for me to tell. Can you state to the committee, at what difference of price, between the Baltic and the colonial timber, the colonial timber would be still used to a considerable extent? I think 255. a load. Do you think that at a difference of twenty-five shillings it would still be used ? Yes. At that price do you think that both sorts would continue to be used ? Yes ; bitt the quantity of American timber consumed would be very much lessened. But it still would be consumed to a very considerable extent ? Yes ; I think it would. Can you inform the committee what proportion the relative consumption of North American and Baltic timber bear to each other, in the Liverpool market, at present? No; I know the quantity of American timber consumed, but not the quantity of Baltic. Can you form a pretty accurate opinion upon the subject, without detailing the facts ? No ; I have no idea. Can you inform the committee .whether the importation of timber into the port of Liverpool from the North American colonies, has not gradually and materially increased within the last year ? It has very much increased. Can you inform the committee what quantity of timber has been imported into the port of Liverpool from the North American colonies, the last and preceding . year ? The quantity, last year, was 78,000 tons ; l cannot speak to what was the quantity in 1810. From your impression, was the quantity imported into the Liverpool market ih 1319 equal to the last year ? I think, from the number of the ships employed, the quantity was about the same. Are you aware of the present stock of North American timber in the Liverpool market ? It is about 42,000 tons. About six months' ordinary import ? Yes. Can you state to the committee, what has been the consumption or the quantity sold in the port of Liverpool within the last year ? The quantity sold in the last year was 81,000 tons. Are you acquainted with the quantity sold within the preceding year ? No, I am not. Are you not aware whether it was less or more ? I should suppose rather less ; about 23,000 tons less. Are you acquainted with what was the current shipping price of yellow pine timber in the colonies of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick during the last season ? Seventeen shillings and sixpence per load was about the average price below. Do you think that price sufficient to remunerate the shippers for the costs and I I charges, and to leave them a rmsonable profit ? The shippers complain of that I price, as being lower than they can afford to do it at. Will you state to the committee, what in your opinion would be a fair remune rating price to the shippers from those colonies ? I should suppose twenty shillings a load. From New Brunswick ? Yes. Has the price ever been at twenty shillings ? It has been as high as thirty shillings a load. Does the price of cutting timber, and bringing it out to the ports, fluctuate ? No, I should think not, excepting as between a state of war and a state of peace. 'ls there any oak timber shipped from New Brunswick and Nova Scotia ? No ,•• or if any, it is very little. What proportionate price does the red pine bear in the Liverpool market with the yellow pine ? There is so little of the red pine which comes to market, that I almost forget what the price is ; from sixpence to nine pence a foot. Is the cost of the red pine higher than the yellow, or lower ? It is about twelve shillings a load higher. Is that additional cost in consequence of an additional expense in cutting and bringing it to the shipping ports, or in the first cost of the timber ? In consequence of the superior quality of the timber, that I consider is the reason why they put that value upon it, and the scarcity of it. Can you inform the committee what were the current rates of freights from those colonies to Liverpool during the last year ? From fifty-two to fifty-five shillings a load. Liverpool measurement ? Yes. • Have any ships been engaged for the present year ? Not that I have heard of. In what manner is the timber so imported paid for to the colonies ? In British manufactures and provisions, Irish provisions, salt, articles used for the fisheries, and for the supply of the people employed in cutting timber. If the importation of timber from those colonies were materially diminished, would not the colonies be deprived to that extent of those supplies on which they depend ? They certainly would ; because they have no other means of making a direct remittance to this country, but by sending timber. Arc the persons that are employed in cutting the timber in those colonies, resi dents in the colony, or do any part of them come from adjoining districts ? Some of them come from the United States. Do they return after the timber is felled to the United States, or remain in The colonies ? They consider' he United States as their home, and if they could not get employment in the country, they would return. Has the emigration from this country to those colonies been considerable ? Yes, it has ; but the proportion has been small compared with Canada ; I am speaking of late years. - Are the persons who so emigrate, employed in cutting or preparing or shippii% timber in those colonies ?• The people from this country are not so expert in cutting down timber as the Americans; they are chiefly employed in hauling it out, and squaring it. _ Have y6ll had to know any thing of the durability of ships built of the pine of New Brunswick ? Yes, I have had a good deal of experience. Can you give any information to the committee on that subject ? We have some ships now, which were built in that country, one of them at present is at Liverpool ; the Rosina ; built in 1802. - • Was she built of the yellow pine ? There is a great deal of yellow pine in her ; her top sides arc yellow pine ; there is ;little oak in her, which I believe was pro cured in that country; but her lower timbers, I mean those which arc under water, are birch. During the period that she has been built, have you had occasion to repair her ? We were under the necessity of repairing her, in consequence of getting ashore once at Liverpool, but the upper works have not been touched. I had a survey upon this ship the other day by a shipmaster and ship carpenter, anu the report is, that the pine timber appears to be perfectly sound, and no appearance of dry rot. The report is as follows :—" We, the undersigned, have this day gone on board of the ship Rosina, built at St. John's, New Brunswick, in 1802, and have carefully examined the pine timber in the vessel ; when we found the same to be perfectly sound and fresh. We particularly examined her top timbers and bowlock timbers, also her topside planks, which arc all of pine, and there is not the smallest ap pearance of decay or dry rot. Liverpool, 14th Feb. 1821. William Gaskell, shipwright. William Danson, shipmaster." For what parts of that ship was pine timber used ? For the upper works, and I believe the beams are of pine, and the fastenings forward ; the bends, I suppose, were of pine too, but lam not certain. We never make use of hard wood above the water, because it soon decays when exposed to wet and dry. Is it within your knowledge, that the timber and plank described in that sur vey is the original plank of which the ship was built ? I do not recollect that that ship had ever any repairs done to her upper works. Has she belonged to your house since she was built ? Yes. Have you any other instances of the durability of ships built at Nova Scotia or New Brunswick ? Yes; we have a ship called the Comet, now returning from India ; she was built in 1811, at St. John's ; this is her third voyage from India ; before she went out we had occasion to open a small part for light, and we found the timbers perfectly sound. , Was she built of the yellow pine also ? Yes, her topsides and timbers were of hackmatack. Then is the committee to understand that the timbers and upper works of the ship, as well as the plank, are of pine ? The planks in her are of pine, and the top timbers are built of hackmatack. _ _ Explain what is meant by hackmatack ? It is a species of larch. The next shij► is the Caledonian ; she was built in 1815, and is now on her fourth voyage to India ; she was quite sound when last examined. Was she built likewise at New Brunswick ? Yes. Do you know of any ships built in England of the colonial pine ? No, Ido not. Is it much used in Liverpool for the purpose of ship-building ? I should think not. Have you heard any opinion expressed by ship builders in this country, as to its quality for ship building ? No, I have not, it is so little used ; it is not used in the building of ships in this country, except for inside works. Can you account for the difference of opinion which exists in the colonies and in England, as to its durability ? I should suppose it has arisen in consequence of many ships having been built in British America for sale, and very little pains taken in preparing the timber ; that I believe has occasioned many of them to go to decay very early, anti has occasioned people in this country to have a bad opinion of them. Those ships of which I have been speaking, were built for our own use ; they were built under proper inspection, and a great deal of pains taken in order to have the wood well prepared and seasoned. Do the merchants of Liverpool frequently build ships of that timber in the colonies ? There are a good many that belong to the port of Liverpool built in that country. Arc they built considerably cheaper there than they can be built in England ? Very littie. If ave they not the advantage of a freight home ? Yes ; and during the war that was a very great advantage. Do you know what proportion, generally speaking, of red pine and yellow pine is shipped from the North American colonies to this kingdom ? I should think the proportion of red pine not more than one-tenth. The committee understand you to say, that the American yellow pine is not more likely to suffer from the dry rot than the Baltic timber ? I never heard of the American pine having the dry rot. In what respect do you apprehend that American yellow pine is inferior to the Baltic ? It is not so strong ; it would not bear so much pressure as the Baltic timber. Do you think that is the whole reason for the difference of the price ? Yes, I should think so; the Baltic timber has a great deal of turpentine in it. Would you not also consider, in some measure, that difference in the price to arise from the very large supply of the one, and the scanty supply of the other ? There has been a very good supply of the Baltic, but there has been an over-sup ply of the American lately. From what port in New Brunswick does the timber principally come ? From St. John's, St. Andrew's, Mirimachi, and sev era l ports o f inferior note. Is Mirimachi in New Brunswick ? Yes. Does much come from St. Andrew's ? Yes, a good deal, a considerable proportion. Are there not large importations of timber from the United States into those parts ? No ; from St. Andrew's. I believe some small quantities arc brought from the American side, but it is a very little. From what part of the country do you suppose the timber sent to St. Andrew's to come ? From New Brunswick side of the river principally. Have not those colonies a very considerable trade in timber and different sorts of wood to our West India islands ? Yes, they have, of small sized timber ; which they call scantlings and boards. Have they not a monopoly of those markets, in consequence of the Americans being excluded from them? I believe they have at present. Do you know whether there was any considerable stock of wood lying on hand in the New Brunswick provinces, after the shipping season of last year ? Yes, there -is a large quantity ; a very considerable stock both at St. John's and Mirimachi. What proportion do you suppose that stock might bear to the quantity shipped last year ? I should suppose about one-half of the quantity shipped last year. Have not the preparations for cutting timber for this season, been greatly sus pended, in consequence of the uncertainty prevailing with respect to the system of duties ? They have considerably ; I understand there would not be so many peo ple employed in cutting this last winter, as in the previous season. Do you not consider it much for the interest of your trade, that a permanent system should be fixed as early as possible ? Yes, I should think so ; for people are all holding back now, from making any preparation, not knowing what mea sures are to be adopted with respect to those duties. Thomas Tooke, Esquire, called in ; and examined. The committee understand you are in the Russia trade ? Yes. Are you very generally connected with the timber trade ? Not much. You arc aware that the trade in timber with the Baltic and with Russia, has fallen off materially of late years ? lam aware that it has declined of late years,. Do you attribute that plincipally to the high duties on the Baltic timber, or to the facility with which the American timber is introduced into this country duty free ? Both causes operate to produce that effect. Should it be in the contemplation of government to put a duty on American timber, say of 10s. a load, should you consider the effect produced by that, or a duty of ss. on American timber, and ss. reduction Baltic timber, to produce the same effect ? I should, say the reduction of so trifling an amount would aflbrd scarcely any perceptible benefit to the one, or any material influence upon the other ; for practical purposes, I think it is too small a difference. [To I.e continued.] LONDON : printed by THOMAS DAVISON, Whitefriars, and published by W. A. SCRIPPS, of No. 7, South Molten Street, at THE SUN, OFFICE, No. 1 12, Strand.