The Sun. — London, England, 1844-07-03 00:00:00

.......;....'" so fsr lan or State ne, 3' one duriog t when , or the gii en v were ilea, of sccres tained. sonic' rse ob• that at were ed that Emmet" IVer ° re (Mr' ,he pre• France. suit the rith the read tto s words t in the ttestnee lice had THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 5, 1844, after the speech of' the Hon. Gentleman--(Hear hear)— 1 arid, i n the first place, he • was mos t ' anxious to assure th e House, on the part of her Majesty's Government, that there was the most earnest desire on n thei r p art that this discussion should not be post Ponca, and that there should be a House this evening ; and if there was any Member more anxious than anotherow On the sehiect, he wa s th at individual ; *and he was now most glad t h at h e had the opportunity of addressing them.—(Hear, hea r .) Th e Hon. Gentleman said that this was a quest i on of confidence, and that it was their wish to conceal some portion of the truth, and to mistifye the matter. N ow , h e thought he might appeal to th • } douse wheth er i t was not, in a great measure, owing to his strict adherence to truth that this question was now befor e the House ?—( Hear.) He might have given an eya vive answer, which would have prevented cis question from being brought under the notice of the House ; but he s-orned teeth a subterfuge.—(Hear, hear.) He thought he was in honour bound not to give an evasive answer ; and whatever the consequences might be to him uelf, he thought he was in duty and in honour bound to state the facts as they were. On a former oc casion he had said that a legal remedy party injured. lie did not think that was an improper thou was open to the though it might be an unnecessary answer. He thought t it a justifiable answer, and he could not conceive iliegal injury inflicted by a public servant where the law any great did not Pr vide a remedy. But it was not his intention t rept at that answer now; it was considered unnecessary. On the former occasion the Hon. Gentleman said this was a question between the people of England and the Government. Whatever it might have been he admitted it assumed that aspect uow.—(Hear, hear.) He stated on a fortner occasion he did not undervalue the im p or tance of th e d i scussion from the moment it was brought under the ,notice of the House.---:(I-Iear.) interests, an He sa id it was a gr ave quest i on, i nvolv i ng great nat i ona l that now a excitin g nat i ona l f ee li ngs. H e repeate d 'Primar , and h e sai d he regarded this as a question of that he Y im portance. and it was hi s i n t en ti on t o p rove so e steemedit.—(H ear , hear.) He regarded this ae,ola question bet ween the people and the executive d es ateNrunient.--- (Rear hear.) The Hon. Gentleman s . a th within the two la ' st - ears—for he specified the time there had h coder power -whit; been a most ) unscrupulous use of' this parti inore grave charge Government by any h was exercised contrary to law. A could not be preferred against any Member of the House. Mr. p. DUINCOMRE said he made use of the words "on a former occasion." Sir J. GRAIIAM said he hoped, considering the gravity of the question, the House would permit him to proceed without interruption.—(Hear, hear.) He was sure the Hon. Gentleman did not intend it. He was about to state that the importance of this question was greatly magnified by the assertions made, not only on the former occasion by the Hon. Gentleman, but re iterated through the press, and it had grown in messni tude from the assertions made that evening by the Hon. Gentteman. The Hoh. Gentleman said it was notorious ious that as the mails arrived there was a cry firstf:. let- the bublin bat—then for th e B r i g h ton b ee — t h en f ters directed to particular street, and he stated that he believed everybody's letters were opened. Mr. T. DIJNCOMBE said lie did not say that. - Sir J. GRAHAM said he begged the House would Slot allo w him to be interrupted. If he made any mis mstatement, he was open to correc ti on a ft er h e sat d own. at he anpealed to the justic e o f th e H ouse w h et h er h e ~,,as not e nt i t l e d to a f a i r hearing. Hear, hear.) The '°o• Gentl eman sa id t h at h e was now called on to say veer° than he had on a former occasion, and that he said Lo Much that it was necessary that he should say more. He (Sir J. G raham) was disposed to agree with him in that, lie thought the time was arrived when he must Say 131 °ve•—Cheers f rom b ot h s i des of the House.) hen he considered the state of the public Mind, so sen sitive on this point--(Hear,. hear)—the efforts which had b een made to inflame the public mind—the assiduous, successful, designed attempts—Meer, - hear)—which we re made for this purpose, he agreed with the Hon. Gentleman the time was come when he must say more— yvhen he was desirous to say more—(Cheers)—and when he was desiroue, to use the words of the Honourable Gentleman, " that the truth, the whole truth, and no thing bet the truth, should be made known."—(Renewed Che ers-) When he last addressed the House, he ad dressed it under circumstances different from those •!vhieh now presented themselves for consideration, fur of holding, Ills i mmediat e predecessor in the office he had the honour latm er, and in hi s had stated in the most solemn and authentic 33 place in Parliament, that he had no s ta,ole to believe that the power given to the Secretary ,_,lntate: with regard to the delaying and opening letters, and which power was necessary for the safety of the had should be exercised by a responsible Minister, the bee.n exercised by him in a manner different from l'rede.Ze7 il which it had been exercised by his addre sse T 4 l• • n was in those circumstances he last swor e servwde House on this subject. But, since then, versed habits of i n a t i l i t s of her Majesty, Privy-Councillors, men .._. .tof do, cognisant a affairs of State, conversant with the e, well knaveing what it was their duty to what their predecessors had done, the Right Hon. eman the Member for Edinburgh, ahny ...powers of deela tojedsneot think Gunbecoming his station and abilities, and and apparentl !nation which were unsurpassed by _ Member of that 1 1011 SP to come down to the House. • Ye-prepared for the occasion—(Hear, hear) •.—and address to it an impassioned speech, raising the indignation of the House and the public, not against the law, not against the system, but against the individual. The Right goo. 3 stated it was not of the ex istence of the law that he complained, but of the de- Parture from established usage, and of the mode in which 1110 power had been exercised by her Majesty's present (HGovernment ?—(Hear„ hear.) Did he stand alone ? ear, hear.) Were there no other sworn Members of her Majesty 's Privy Council ?--(Hear.) What was the tone - of the Noble Lord, the Member for Sunderland ? Th eymight not be conversant with the peculiar details f 1- ' but the Noble Lord, the Member for o the Home-office; predecessor in London, who, though not his immediate r _ been in the Honie Department, had for did not thin t i 'oconsistent with his duty to vote for inquiry— .llear, h ear)—not because he objected to the ' e ga -1 powe r , b ut b ecause he was not of opinion that it was exercised by him (Sir J. Graham) in ' the accustomed manner mei according to constitutional 14sage•—(Ilear, n hear.) What had been the effect of this on the publi c m i nd ? It had been to ind uce a convic tio that he l a b oure d under a stigma peculiar to himself, l'f introdu c i ng a new practice and of departing, in some lenpertant particulars, from the precedent set in former ti mes, and pursued by his predecessors from an early Period of the history of England. Now, he would tell ;•1110 House frankly that no l oa d o f o bl oquy (though e w ° lll d net sat- it was unwort h y to seek a mount o to crush him under a l oa d of obloquy), no f inju s ti ce cast upon him, would induce him to t°eonsent to in if he thought it was not for the public ° ' l ; but he was satisfied, after what had taken place give thin these ten days—after the votes which had been -;len on the former occasion by the Noble Lord the . ttlee i . the Sunderland, the Noble Lord the Member :,:ii iii, `: Id °o, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for b evc u rAh, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for tore:un, all of whom were Cabinet Ministers, and 3_e l ess acquainted with the practice of the execo ''et! Go ve rn the votes they gave for inquiry . 1 1 0 the ground of a departure from' established usage— this Say that from that moment the maintenance of That poesse•e,,,_svithout inquiry, was impossible. He was glad • fice of hiiuldconsent to this inquiry without any sacri- move o the Crown or to the public, and that iieeoald r from himself this unjust load of obloquy without Miy riSk to the legal power, now not only in 2 0 _ ger, lilt destroyed. He repeated, that he could now I , ( tul . ge 11S own feelings consistently with the public a i re mg inquiry— it7sit :md i h i n would be a party — a willing party—.to the of the law, (Loud cheers)—into the state earliest aw• and the practice under the law, from the . - e West period to the latest ti mes. —(Cheers.) So far as Iv t , as concerned, nothing should be concealed, and he ns iirepared to go before a Comm ittee of the House, *The nature f • • ?state ' o which he Would state, and to fully everything h had and eheers) and he ho e done.—(Hear . ws , „ call --- ped that the Committee e-T_ °,0,!,,-10 not only his colleagues but his predecessors ikchcued cheers)—and that there should, be a full and esist_te. )!!.tnitiation and revelation of what had taken e" 7' lie would propose terms as general as would in tir e a full inquir -confined Y• The power given by law was not Lord to the Se 4- . b - ' to the Lie ute of ary of State, ut was given . • would be exnant of Ireland, arid he hoped the inquiry of that inquirytruled to him.-(Hear, hear.) The result Ilia. .. would be, as far as he was concerned, t the power e • • for m i ti , w . , xermsed by him had been strict con -not '' only the usage of his office—that the usage was ParticularY recognised by statute, but that in th e • e ases it had been brought under nonce of th e H • pointed b y • ouse by reports of Committees ap - Ph - the llonse. Neither • in the mode in which Power had been • whieh it h exercised, nor to the extent to comparison • had been used, would his conduct suffer by he u.a with that of his immediate predecessors, and fie now rejoiced to think there would be no mysti as sar n se .—(Loud ch eers-) I-le hoped the result would be , v , 0 se.atactory to the Hon. Gentleman himself, and those a s _wetintd hirn.—(Hear, hear, and Tory cheers.) li r i . ago o move an i 3 the Hon. • amendment to the motion - form er Gentleman. lie stated on a _, O . oceasiou that he did think a revela el n in that House of theexercise of this power would not be conducive to the good. He re ! twiner that opinion, e pu c and he th in quiry, not before S I ought there should be an mittee. pie thought a Se lee but before a Secret Com dent, and e thought it was expedient to follow prece o ' • that a Secret Committee should be appointed i inquire into the Jest i extent he had stated. It was of the in' that the • Committee lamp be amPle and h powers given to the Committee la rge as the t House e was prepared to grant them as Altich would depend o nil t require.—(hear, hear.) tnitt ee. Nowhe w n a s e composition of this Corn • that it no delay should take mostat.e particnlarly anxious • Considering the ins , e ance of the subject, and the state of the lie thought this • • as ,_ . e,_ did not ought to take place without - !,''' l 3. Ile did not know `ought She strict rules of siouse permitted, but it Nether e e _ .___ on , was his intention to move as an , molln t to the motion or the II ....omen on. Gentleman that a ttee of Seer • b ' state of th e l • en/ e appointed to inquire into the of letters at ' :esv in respect to the detaining and opening which the auttitileorGeneral Poet•office, and into the mode in had been exerci-ity given f or such detaining and opening opinions and oi3s , and that the Committee report their would depend 'erva.tions to the House. A great deal rie could upon the composition of the Committee. ifo conceive no higher trust delegated by the use to any gentle ' shoe .rhey were anxious that it Id be impartial :nen. Proposed that there.and' as a proof of that wish, he lt wee his intenti should be a Committee of nine, and should be e t on propose that five out of the nine ~.__e n . g _n Jensen who opposed her Majesty's GentlemenGo b"Oo t (Hear, hear.) He proposed that four should ~,"_ er who generally voteel with her Majesty's Miff abuse and that those four should be Lord Sandon, NT,istiouse Drummond, Mr. Thomas Baring, and Sir kl:.'larn Heatheote. The five others who opposed her -4Q3tY's Ciovenunent, he proposed should be Sir Charles Lemon, Mr. Warburton, Mr. Strait, The O'Conor Don, and Memberr. Ord, the for Newcastle. He should say, that he had carefully excluded from his list every gentleman connected with offiee—(Hear, hear)—and he had also excluded the Hon. Gentleman who brought forward the motion, not from any want of rcepeet, but because he thought it better that the accuser and the accused . should have nothing to do with the Committee. Toth se he surrendered his case, and his personal honour without fear.—(Hear, hear.) They could report what the former usages had been, what was the state of the law, as it existed from the earliest time, sanctioned by men long since gone to their great account—men of spotless private honour, who dearly loved the liberties of England, for the use of which an attempt was made to crash him. He entrusted the matter to the Committee, confident that they would discharge their duty, and though there were some evils in the late discussion, and the agitation of the public mind on the subject, yet he hoped, he helieved, and he prayed that good might ensue, and with this feeling, thanking the House for the patience with which they had heard him, he would place this amendment in the Speaker's hands.—(Loud cheers.) The amendment having been put, pare SIIEIL said it seemed to him a most extraordi nary circumstance, that a Committee to inquire into the state of the law and the manner into which it had been carried into effect, should not cent a single lawyer.— (Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman expressed a wish that the investigation should be of the moat search ing character.—(hear, hear.) Ile presumed, therefore, that he had no objection to have the different function- arks of the Post-office examined respecting its various details.—(" Hear, hear," from Ministers.) Then it fol lowed that they must have some persons on the Commit tee who were accustomed to putting questions.— (Lau,;hter.) IF they wished to have a thorough, investi gation, they Inuit hare, if the Committee would allow him to use such a phraee, a forensic inquisitor.—(No, no.) Observe, they wished to have the course pursued by their predecessors, as well as their own, investigated.--(Hear, hear.) It was a cause, and plus cause.—(Hear, hear.) The predecessors of the Government were` as much interested in t':e issue at stake as they themselves were. They said that they were not more criminal than those who had gone before them. Was it not desirable, then, that the Committee should contain two individuals, one on one side and the other on the other side, both of whom were accustomed to the examination of witnesses ?—(No, no.) He cer tainly could not help thinking that when they were re ferring to the consideration of a Committee the con struction of the law, and the manner in which this law had been acted upon. that Committee should consist of persons who would be able thoroughly to investigate the whole subject.—(Hear.) Sir GEORGE GREY said, as the Right Honour able Gentleman had alluded to the vote which he (Sir George Grey) had given on a former occasion, he wished to disclaim altogether, if such dis claimer were necessary, the attempt which Would be made to throw upon him all the responsibility connected with this power. It was hardly necessary that he should refer to the arguments which he had used in support of the motion of his Hon. Friend. He had, however, stated distinctly that the single ground on which he sup ported that motion was, that the Government had been utterly silent, not only as to the details of a particular case, but as to the broad principle upon which they ex ercised the power which was admitted, on all hands, to be vested in them by law.—(Hear, hear.) He felt that the real charge which would be brought against the Government was, that a power given for one purpose had been exercised for another—(Hear, hear)—that the power which had been given fur the purpose of securing the throne of this country from con spiracy—he did not say whether the charge was well founded or not, but in the absence of all asser tion to the contrary, he was bound to assume its cor rectness—had been exercised by the Right lion. Gentle man, not for that constitutional object, but for purposes entirely unconnected with these dominions, and exclu sively connected with a foreign country. That, he repeated, was the single ground upon which he supported the motion ; and he begged to remind the lion. Gentle man that he stated, that if lie disavowed such an exer cise of power, he, for one, should be satisfied.—(Hear, hear.) Having said so much as to what passed on a former occasion, he begged to say that he entirely ap proved of the course now taken by the Right Hon. Gen tleman.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the terms of the motion were rot very material. The Right Hon. Gen tleman had distinctly stated that he wished fur a full and comprehensive inquiry.—(" Hear," from Sir J. Graham.) As they had the substance, therefore, he did not think the precise form was material. As to the constitution of the Committee, he thought it was desirable to avoid expressing any final opinion upon that subject on that occasion. —(Hear, hear.) He presumed that, in con formity with the ordinary practice, the names would be laid on the table to-morrow. The Right Honourable Baronet (Sir James Graham) shook his head, but as the House met at twelve o'clock, to-morrow, if his suggesti in were complied with, it would only cause a delay of about 12 hours; and was it desirable to violate the ordinary rule of the House for the purpose of gaining twelve hours? Ile saw no ob• , jection to . the names proposed, except that of his Right Hon. Friend in reference to the absence of gentle men connected with the law. He begged to correct himself. He understood that there was one gentleman who possessed that advantage. If that were the case, he thought there should he one from each side of the House. He could ns:t help expressing his satisfaction at the change of tone on the part of the Right lion. Gentleman opposite, after the avowed ignorance of his colleagues. He was sure that not one of his predeces sors would shrink from the most full and complete in quiry as to the manner in which they had exercised the power which was vested in them. After the observa non which had been made in that House, and by men of the highest authority on the subject, it was of the ut most importance that the law should be placed on grounds which would render it clear and unambiguous. Mr. ROEBUCK said he understood that the object of appointing the Committee was to create a feeling of security in the public mind, that feeling of security which had been so much shaken by what had taken place within the last few days. The Right Hon. Gen tleman wished to have a thorough scrutiny into all the circumstances connected with the administration of' the Post-office, for the purpose of creating a feeling of se curity out of doors. They were about to institute a Committee—first of all to inquire into the actual state of the law on that subject, he thought it would be found that there were great doubts in the minds of the most learned lawyers. The next question was, how that law had been administered—whether it had been departed from or acted upon, by whom departed from and by whom acted upon. He would ask the House, if they thought the most likely !neaps of creating se curity out of doors was to make this Committee secret ? —(Hear.) He had no objection to the inquiry being carried on with closed doors, but what he wished to insure was the full and complete publication of the cvi dence.—(Hear, hear.) He had stated that the state of the law was doubtful. After what had passed else where, could they for a moment hesitate to admit that such was the case? They found Learned Law Lords on one side opposed by equally learned authorities on the other, and taking directly opposite views of the sub ject. If, therefore, they instituted an inquiry into the actual state of the law, the Committee should be com posed of very sagacious persons, and persons accus tomed to common law. Whilst referring to the state of the law, he begged to state one or two facts bearing on this subject. By an Act of Parliament of the 9th of Queen Anne, certain powers were given to the Post office, 'and ,a proviso was introduced into that Act by which persons opening letters under the warrant of the Secretary of State should be free from the penal ties imposed: The 9th of Anne had been repealed, and an Act was passed in 1837, by which certain powers were also given, and a proviso was inserted in that Act. Now, he asserted, on the very highest authority that the proviso in the Act of Parliament simply protected the persons who opened the letters, it gave no authority to any Secretary of State to issue any warrant, and if the Secretary of State had any authority at all, it was a power which he possessed in the common law.—(Hear, hear.) He was only stating this for the purpose of showing the sort of inquiry upon which this Committee was about to enter. The Hon. and Learned Member then referred to the Act of Parliament in support of the statement which he had just made. lle begged now to direct the attention of the House to the language of Lord Camden, in the case the seizure of Mr. Wilkes' papers. " Papers," said Lord Camden, " were the owner's goods and chattels, they were his dearest property, and were so far from enduring a seizure, that they would hardly bear an in spection ; and though the eye conld not, by the law of England, be guilty of a trespass, yet the carrying goods away which were of a secret nature, was an act of trespass." There was no law which gave any man the power to do that ; and it was too much for them, without such authority, to pronounce a practice legal which would be subversive of all the comforts of society.' Now he (Mr. Roebuck) wanted to have per sons appointed from that House, who would be able to report as to the actual state of the law, as well as the manner in which it had been carried out. In an ordi nary case they had a judge, whose duty it was to tell the jury what was the state of the law ; and he did net think that the Committee now nominated would be able to decide that question. He fully sym pathised with the Right Hon. Gentleman in what he bad said as to the advantage which had been taken of this incident to call down public indignation upon a public officer who had done nothing more than follow in the footsteps of his predecessors.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) That feeling had been created out of doors by all those vile arts which attached to the daily prees.—(Hear, hear.) A viler instrument of calumny could not be used, and all its vileness bad been used on the present occasion, and.poured on the head of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) lle would not do honour to one more than another of those detestable channels.—(Laughter.) Ile was delighted at this inquiry. lie was convinced that the moment this power was understood the people of this country would consign it to destruction.—(Cheers.) It was not necessary for the safety and peace of the country.—(Hear, hear.) It was only used to gratify a base passion.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) It was used for paltry, disingenuous, and detestable pur poses— (Hear, hear)—and it could not be of any use to a Government which rested on the affections of the people. Those affections could not be gained but by 'a straightforward and honest course. They could not be gained unless the people were suffered to perform all those acts which society considered harmless and useful. Ile held in his hand a paper which he desired to bring before the House. The Hon. Member for Finsbury said that M. Guizot had thought fit to say, that he was not aware that any breach of the privacy of letters in France now took place. He did not attach much credit to that statement as a piece of information. The Hon. and Learned Member then read a letter from M. Carnot, the Minister of tke Interior, to M. - le Prefet du Department des Postes, stating that he had been informed that, ' in certain parts of the empire the privacy of letters had been violated, and deprecating such proceedings. The letter concluded with these words—" The thoughts of a citizen ought to be as free as his person."—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He hoped it would not be said that, in England, at that period, they were not able to realise the wishes of a Minister of France in 1815. Under an established and regular Government he believed they were not reduced to the fatal necessity of employ ing so degrading a means of securing the public safety. Mr. L A.BOUCHERE said he was anxious to take that opportunity of making some explanation to . the House on a point which involved his own personal cha racter. It had been asserted that, in consolidating the Post-office Acts in 1837, the late Government gave a fresh sanction to the power under discussion, and actu ally pushed that power beyond its previous extent. Now, he begged to state distinctly, that if that were the effect of the Consolidation Act, he alone was responsible for it. It was suggested to him, as a member of the Post-. office Commission, that great inconvenience arose from the Post-office Act being spread over 130 separate en actments. That suggestion was made by the Hun. Member for Greenock ; and he complied with it, on the con dition that the Act should simply be a Consolidation Act, and that the merits of the question should not be discussed. His Hon. Friend the Member for Greenock in particular had kept most sacredly that bargain, he did not raise any of the questions he had threatened to do; he had allowed him (Mr. Labouchere) to proceed with the con solidation ; that was an act of consolidation, and that only ; there was no fresh power given, nor was it in tended, the object was to leave the Act where it was. The only alteration he had peoposad in the Act was to take away the punishment of death in cases in Ireland, where it had been taken away in England. He felt no doubt by the consolidation that had taken place they had nut made the law more stringent, but if it was to he, and he alone, was responsible fur it. He had endea voured to discharge his duty to the best of his and if he had failed he was to blame. With respect to the question before the House he rejoiced at the course taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head •of the Home Department ; he was glad that the whole ques tion would be looked into, and he was sure his Noble Friend the Member for the City of London would not shrink from having his conduct inquired into when he was in the Home-office. He (Mr. Labouchere) could not think there was any real public object gaine:l by opening letters, in the manner and for the purposes they had hitherto been. He could not see any State necessity for exercising the power in that sweeping way in which it was exercised by Mr. Fox, in 1787, when he opened all the letters to the ambassadors from foreign countries; but this he could readily conceive, that there might be occa sions when it was necessary to adopt such a course — such, for instance, as a conspiracy against the life of the Queen. The Hon. Gentleman who had spoke last had raised an objection to the Committee bens! , a secret one. Now, he could not see any objection to that. He could not see any difference between a Secret Committee and one with closed doors, except that the Secret Committee might exclude Members of that House, and for his own part he could not see why Members should claim a pri vilege which they refused to the public. As to the names of the Committee he hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would adopt the usual course. He was glad at the course the Government had pursued, and he thought if they had at once stated their views and reasons fur the course they had taken, instead of refusing to do so, public anxiety would not have been so excited as it had been, and the only way to allay that anxiety was to have a strict and searching inquiry into the whole matter. Sir R. PEEL cordially and personally shared in the satisfaction expressed by Hon. Members that there would be an opportunity given of obtaining full information on the subject of the invidious power of opening letters. lie rejoiced in it, because these acts were not the acts of an individual member of the Government, but of the Government itself.—(Hear. hear.) It was not right that those on whom the law placed the performance of a cer tain duty should bear the obloquy of it. The great object for which the Committee was to be appointed was to obtain full and complete information as to the usages and circumstances under which the authority had been exercised, and there would proceed from the Committee an opinion as to whether or no, in the case of a particu lar Administration, the power had been perverted from the course it was intended to pursue ; whether it had been used for the promotion of party interests or private curiosity, or for the indulgence of private malignity, or for the great purpose for which it had been given, viz., the maintenance of the public interest. That was the great object the Government had in view in proposing this Committee. They had left out lawyers purposely in order that there might not be any squabbling as to what the law was. Suppose they had proposed to ap point the llon. Member for Worcester, and the Hon. Member for Exeter, on the Committee, and they had disagreed, in what situation would they be placed? The law was not the question the people wanted to be satisfied upon what they wanted to know was, why the Government had pursued the course it had done, and whether they had pursued it properly. He thought the gentlemen they had named to form the Committee had intelligence enough to come to a right conclusion without the aid of the Hon. Members for Worcester and Exeter. He hoped, therefore, the House would not call upon the Government to appoint lawyers on the Com mittee. As to Mr. Home Drummond, it had never occurred to him that he was so acute a lawyer; they had named him out of respect for his character; and if it was supposed that any advantage would accrue to the Government from his appointment, they would forego it, and appoint another . lion. Member in his room. Objections had been. made to the Pommittee being a secret one; it was made So in order that persons who had held high stations might mere fully detail what bad been done. The Cominittee, - having heard the statements of facts would have tie Tull opportunity. of stating whether the statements were sittisfactory 'oe - not, without disclos ing names ; if they wante4 Ap.g.et at the real state of the facts as to the motivWO(thei Government, they would only accomplish it by-having ttSeerett Committee, that was the only way in evhich theycoula get at the whole truth. He trusted that the House would think there was such manifest justice in the appointment of the Com mittee that they would' at' once agree to it. Every one of the five Members the Government had chosen had given their votes against them on the last occasion the question was brought forward. He hoped tho House would allow the Government to substitute some other name for Mr. Home Drummond, and would permit the Committee to be appointed that night in order that they might not be involved to-morrow in an invidious discus sion as to who should be members of the Committee. Lord JOHN RUSSELL agreed so entirely in the course taken by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, that he should not have considered it ne cessary to say a word to the House, had it not been for some allusion the Right Bon. Baronet made in his speech on laying grounds for the appointment of the Committee. The Right Hon. Gentlemen had referred to what he had stated on a previous night ; he had come down to the House on that occasion thinking he should vote with the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he found he could not do so. There was one special allegation made by the Hon. Member for Finsbury when he brought forward his motion with respect to the letters of Mr. Mazzini and Captain Stolzmann—he said that those letters had been opened, not for the purpose of finding out a public enemy, but for the pur pose of aiding a foreign country against some of their discontented subjects, who had taken refuge in this country. Now he (Lord J. Russell) did not consider that a legitimate exercise of the power. He had given the Right lion. Baronet credit for having properly exercised the power he possessed, although he had refused to give any explanation to this House of his reasons for doing so. He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman's refusal to give any explanation was, as far as the suspicions of the pub lic were concerned, most unfortunate. But he (Lord J. Russell) could not lament the course he had taken on that occasion. After the refusal to give any explana tion, the suspicions of the public could not fail to be awakened ; the same inflammatory statements would have been made, the same excitement would have existed in the public mind ; and even then, according to the Right Hon. Gentleman, he would not have granted any inquiry. But as the members of the late Government had taken the course they had done, the Right Hon. Gentleman now thought it necessary to appoint a Committee on the subject.— (Hear, hear.) He thought a very good con sequence had resulted.—(Hear, bear.) lie should sup port his Hon. Friend, the Member for Finsbury, think ing it quite fair that, as the Right Hon. Gentleman .s conduct was attacked, the conduct of his predecessors ought to be inquired into also by means of a Committee, But he entirely agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman in the reasons he had stated why this Committee should be a secret one ; by that means, its purpose would be much better answered, the inquiry would bo more strict, and the Members would be more able to make up their minds on subject, than if it was made an open Com mittee, and its evidence canvassed day by day. .For his own part, he was ready to agree to any selection of names for that Committee which the Right lion. Gentle man might propose, and he could see no objection to those he had chosen. He thought it much better that they should now close this part of the discussion, and proceed at once ,to appoint the Committee. He - was ready to give, himself, any evidence before that Com mittee that he was able to give, though there were many others who could state better than he could, the manlier in which the power had been exercised. At all events, let the whole subject be investigated, and, if the power was to be retained, let the terms of the law be made clearer; and, on the contrary, if it should appear that the power was not necessary for any public interest, let it be discontinued. _ _ Mr. WAKLEY was quite sure that the public would not be satisfied with the reasons either of the Right Hon. Gentleman or of the Noble Lord (J. Russell) for making it a Secret Committee, and he must say it ap peared to him a most extraordinary mode of satisfying public curiosity on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) Did the Members of her Majesty's Government think they mono polised all the curiosity of the world ?—(Laughter.) The Government had the ppwer of looking into people's letters, but the people wanted to know to'what extent it had been done, and why it had been done ? The public had expressed much surprise and indignation at the course that had been pursued ; but the Right Honourable Secretary at first said boldly, " I won't tell you what has been done. I feel it consistent with my public duty to be silent. You shan't know any thing about it." But the public were still very anxious, and the press, he thought, in contradiction to his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Roebuck) had very laudably, and in a very excel lent spirit, excited the feeling that then existed through out England—(Cheers)—a feeling that had so far brought the Right Hon. Gentleman to account that he now consented to some inquiry, and it was to the press they were indebted for that inquiry. —(Loud cheers.) The public said give us investiga tion, and it was a deference to public opinion which the Right Hon. Baronet stated as his reason for granting the inquiry. He stated that public feeling had been so excited on the subject, that he felt it his duty as a Minister of State, to consent to the investigation. Yes ; but how were the public to be satisfied, by being Ma that all the secret was to be confined to the keeping ° or nine lion. Gentlemen, Members of that House, whose opinions upon what had been done would be communi cated to the house ; but who could make no revealment of the manner in which this odious practice had been exercised or of the extent to which it had been exer eised.--(An lion. Member—" They can.") Yes, by a general declaration but he would put it to the Speaker whether it would be competent to the Committee, to present that evidence to the House an .l have it printed. The Right Hon. Baronet had alluded, with great clear ness to the part taken by the late Members of the Go vernment in the debate, and bad alluded to what they had done when in office. Now, he inferred from what had transpired that all the Right Hon. Gentlemen meant to do was this:—to admit what he had done, not to get out of it by saying that his conduct had not been worse than theirs. He means to prove to the Committee that if letters had been, opened to this extent, it had been done in a greater degree by his predecessors. Now, would that be very satisfactory to the public ? - It was said that when persons of a certain description fell out honest men got their own.—( A laugh.) Now, if it had not been for the hostility manifested by the Members of the late Ministry; they would have got no inquiry at all. He was glad of the falling out of gentle men on both sides of the House, but he questioned Much if the Government would get their own. He believed that if great care were not taken, the practice, so much condemned, would be carried on under the au thority of the Secret Committee ; for, from the manner in which the inquiry would be conducted, it would be admitted that the power ought to exist ; and if the power was to rxist, who was to place a limit to it? lie had heard no reasons why there should be an exception to the general rule of Committees in that House. The Com mittee was to inquire into the state of the law. Now, a hat bad transpired in another place with regard to the taw ? In that place they had the first legal authorities in the kingdom, persons to whose judgment, in legal matters, the whole public were willing to submit. They had the Lord Chancellor, the Chief Justice of England, and some half-dozen ex-Chancellors. There they sat, on both sides of the House, maintaining diametrically opposite opinions. The Lord Chancellor main. twined that one warrant was sufficient to open a number of letters. The next Chancellor sup ported Min in that opinion. Another high legal authority backed the Chief Justice in maintaining that an express warrant was necessary in every case, and notwithstanding these differences, and the turmoil between these high authorities, his Hon. Friend pro posed to put lawyers on the Committee. If the Lord Chancellor did not know the law, where would they find lawyers in this House who did ? If the lawyers on the Committee were to debate the law of the question for a month, they would not understand it at last. He ad vised Hon. Gentlemen to apply the principles of common sense and common justice to what they found with regard to the practice of opening letters, and what was the statute-law of the realm, then the public might be satis fied with their decision. If they did tilt, nothing would satisfy the public that this odious and detestable power ought to be continued. A more odious and unfair prac tice was never exercised, or one more calculated to give offence and annoyance. It was a remarkable thing that the Right Hon. Baronet ha I not contradicted a single allegation made by his Hon. Colleague. All the Right Hon. Gentleman stated was, that if he had done it, it had been dune by his predecessors. The Right Honourable Gentleman did not deny that there was a secret office—he did not deny that whole bags of letters were sent into that office. His Hon. Friend did not say they were opened there, but from representations made to Members of that House, he believed the practice had been carried to an enor mous extent. He believed the letters had been opened again and again at the instigation of foreign Govern ments. These were the allegations, and such was the impression on the public mind ; and he would ask, was it not the duty of that House to meet the question at once by appointing an open Committee? He was con vinced the public would not visit the Hon. Gentleman with any more condemnation than they would the Hon. Gentleman opposite ; and if it were proved that they lint done the same thing, so great would be the obloquy cast upon them, that the Right Hon. Baronet would escape, and, in that case he would be glad to have voted fur an open inquiry. Mr. M'GEACHY supported the motion for a Com mittee, and was glad that the Government had consented to grant it, as having been a sufferer from the reconside ration of the decisions of the House on two former occa sions—(Laughter)—he should have voted according to his sense of duty as an independent Member without regard to the Government. Mr. WALLACE agreed with the Hon. Member for Finsbury, that it looked more like the two official sides of the House coming to an arrangement, by which the public should have the least possible information. He was convinced the public would not be satisfied with a Secret Committee. He really did not know what was meant by a Secret Committee. Independent altogether of the practice of opening letters for which warrants were granted, the great body of the people believed that the system was practised irrespective of those war rants. lii consequence they had no confidence in the Post-office. He had in his pockets letters sent to him within the laSt few days—some of them with printed, others with written, notices on their backs, saying it was not worth putting seals upon them, to give the Govern ment the trouble Lf opening them. He wished to: the Post-office put upon the best footing. This Secret Com mittee would have no effect upon the people, and unless the evidence were published there would be no use in granting it all. It would be considered a mere delusion, a mere mode of getting rid of a disagreeable subject, and which a ould be no use whatever. The Hon. Member for Finsbury seemed to have the power of guiding both sides of the House, and of compelling her Majesty's Go vernment to take what course he was pleased to direct, and he hoped, should there be any embarrassment in form ing a new Government, her Majesty would not forget his Hon. Friend, and he hoped, following his usual course, he would divide the House on this occasion. Mr:MACAULAY said he should not have addressed the House, had not some allusion been made to him in his absence by the Right lion. Baronet. If he under- 1 stood rightly what had been stated, the Right Hon. Baronet had imputed to him, first a dereliction of his duty as a sworn servant of her Majesty, and, secondly, of having made a personal attack on the Right Hon. Baronet himself. Now he denied that in any respect he had ever violated the oath or the duty of a Privy Councillor; and he denied having divulged any secret which had come to him in that capacity. He also de nied that in that character he had been informed of the practices of the Post-office, and no oue in that House was more ignorant of those practices than himself. He de nied with equal confidence the charge of having made an attack on the Right Hon. Gentleman. • He came down to the House intending to express concisely a very strong opinion on the state of the law. If he had de parted from that course, it was in consequence of the • Right Hon. Baronet having himself refused to give any I explanation of the principles on which he had acted. That refusal was at variance with all his ideas of Minis terial responsibility ; and there was a wide difference between the conduct of the Right Hon. Baronet in this respect and that of those who had preceded him. There was never before any Minister called to account for the exercise of that power except Sir R. Walpole, and he stated immediately on what principle he had acted; but this the Right lion. Gentleman had repeatedly refused to do. With respect to the appointment of a Com mittee he saw no objection to its being a secret one. He thought it likely that some secret connected with their foreign department might transpire if the Com mittee were made public. But with respect to their internal affairs, he thought the people might be allowed to judge for themselves. The principal question the Committee had to report upon was the state of the law, and he should be much surprised if they did not report the necessity fur a great alteration in it. Lord JOHN RUSSELL briefly explained that he had never intended to state that there should not be a permissive exercise of that power. Mr. W. WILLIAMS feared that the Committee, composed as it was exclusively of Members of the two great political parties, would not command the confidence of the public. The public would not be convinced by rn might htm appointedake , unless there were some Committee.some in dashilepyouerrldel,eotnrht Memberstertehfeor.e, be inclined to move that Mr. Dun combo and Mr. Hume be added to that Committee. — (Cheers.) The lion. Member for Finsbury, who had made the charges, ought to have an opportunity of prov ing them ; and the Hon. Member for Montrose, in whom the public had great confidence, and who -was used to conducting investigations, ought also to he a Member of the Committee. Mr. CURTEIS thought that the thanks both of the British and the foreign public were due to the Hon. Member for Finsbury for having brought forward this su bj ec t—(Cheers.) It was an indefensible and cruel act to open the letters of foreigners, and to betray their con tents to their foreign Governments. —(hear, hear.) In the name of humanity, he thanked the Hon. Member for Finslsury.—(Cheers.) Nothing could be more unjusti fiable than to reseal these letters after opening them. By so doing, the Government rendered it se lf a p ar ty to any crime hich might be committed in consequence.— (Hear, hear.) However severely the press might have handled the Right Hon. Baronet, lie believed that if it had not been for the independent press of this country, , with regard to this ques tion;they th e n occupied. The for Finsbury would have t b oratoryi e e e y n iunn would of h unavailing a et i n li ee n v g e situationlr i i f oll na h ' vee Memb erho h s wt ad oi edh not been aided by the press of the country.. The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath was not justified in speaking of the press in the manner which he bad done. The Right lion. Gentle man's colleagues had manfully come forward to his aid, and to share any obloquy which might attach to it. The thanks of the country were due to the Hon. Member for Finsbury for his conduct on this occasion. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE, in reply, observed that if he possessed the power which the lion. Member for him,induced them tog ) further of directing, the Minis try,ttra Greenock theyeo shouldckahadd d a o r l t He felt con v i nce d t h e pu bli c wou ld not be satisfied with t he inves tigation which had been proposed that night. H e did not believe that there was any necessity for havi n g the Co mmittee a secret one, and he did not believe tha t the country would be satisfied with the Committee wh ich the lion. Gentleman had eeie. in i y attributed have to pro posed. The Right Hon. Baronet had proposed a Com mittee of Secrecy to inquire into the state of the law directing the opening of letters at the General Post office, and the mode in which it was exercised. Now, under those terms, he did not think the Committee could investigate the case of Mr. Mazzini and others, he powerletletter e r o f of thought the words "th e circu mstances under which, and the extent to which itha u s n b d e e e r n t e n x o e s r e ci w se o d r , d " s, ou th g e ht c to om be . l investigating r . ra z z tn andcircum stances other m a d i d tt e e d e t l o vtionu t d l i t ed e r iml:,ohyteiicoht thenh,e as foreigners had been opened ; for one of the principal charges against the Go vern ment was, that they had opened the letters of foreign exiles at the instigation of foreign Powers. Sir R. PEEL said there would be no objection to the words. Government desired the fullest investigation, Mr. T. DUNCOMBE was glad to hear that. The public wished •to know the full extent to which the power hail been exercised by the Government and their predecessors. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that he wished to state the truth, the whole truth, and no thing but the truth. He bad hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet was about to make a statement of the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ; but he had not stated one word about Mr. Mazzini. The Right lion. Gentleman had stopped short, and had said that lie (Mr. Duncombe) had asserted that the Dublin bag and the Brighton bag had been called for, and that he had said that every body's letters had been opened. Now that was not what he had stated. He had said that there was a secret department at the Post office where these deeds of darkness were done ; he said that not only had the letters of individuals been opened, but that, otteasionally, different bags had been carried there, kept for an hour and a half, and then returned to the sorters.—(Hear, hear.) The sorters, of course, did not know what letters had been abstracted. He said, for instance, the Dublin bag, or the . Brighton bag, might be called for. He had every reason to believe that those bags had been called for.—(Cheers.) Ile had not said that everybody's letters had been opened at the Post office, but he had said that the roving commission which had gone down into the manufacturing districts had, per • haps, opened everybody's letters, and he hoped the Com mittee would inquire into the conduct of the roving commission in 1842.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped they would have no scruple if any letters of his had been opened in saying so.—(Hear, hear.) Ho called upon them to repeat specially if any letters from the Albany had been opened. He had been informed that the Al bany letters had been stepped. He had no doubt the Right lion. Baronet thought he was only in the execu tion of his duty if he had so done.—(Cheers and laughter.) lie did not know why the Committee should be secret. As it was, the responsibility of the investigation would rest wholly upon the Government ; and if be should have reason to believe that the Committee had not done their duty, and had not satisfied the public, he should not be precluded from again opening the question, and proposing some other mode of investigation.— (Hear.) • The motion was then withdrawn, and the question was put on Sir James Graham's ameadment for the appoint • ment of a Secret Committee. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished the words to which he had alluded to be introduced. Sir R. PEEL had no objection to the introduction of the words " the extent to which, and the circumstances under which that authority had been exercised." Mr. ROEBUCK suggested that the words should be rendered still more stringent. Sir R. PEEL thought there was no necessity for any alteration. The Committee. had full powers, and was not composed of lawyers, who would quibble. Mr. WAKLEY said that there was not one word about resealing letters, and the Committee were not bound to make any observations on that part of the question. He suggested that the words "to report as to the raclosing and resealing of letters" should be in troduced. Mr. ROEBUCK reminded the Right Honourable Baronet that it did not require a lawyer to quibble. Mr. MACAULAY thought the powers which were given to the Committee included everything necessary for the fullest investigation. Sir J. GRAHAM had carefully considered the terms of the motion, and had studiously made them as wide as possible. He proposed to have a most complete, thorough investigation. and he hoped the motion would be per mitted to stand in its original terms. The motion was then agreed to. Sir J. GRAHAM having been given to understand that Mr. H. Drummond had practised as a lawyer, pro posed to substitute the name of Mr. Wilson Patten in stead of Mr. H. Drummond on the Committee. Mr. HORSIIAN did not object to any of the Mem bers of the Committee, but he thought it extremely desirable that the Hon. Member for Finsbury should be on it. He would, therefore, suggest that two names be removed, and the names of the Under Secretary of the Home Department, and the Hon. Member for Finsbury be substituted for them. Sir R. PEEL hoped the House would be satisfied to let the Committee stand as it had been originally pro posed. Let it not be said of that Committee, as had been said of another tribunal—" I looked for a judge and I found an accuser."—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had expressed strong opinions on the sub ject—so strong that he was satisfied he himself would not wish to be on the Committee. They meant no per sonal disrespect to the Hon. Gentleman, but they followed the precedent which had been set by Hon. Members opposite in the case of the Hon. Member for Cork, against whom the Hon. Member for Blackburn had pre ferred an accusation, which had been referred to a Select Committee, from which the accuser was excluded. As they had acted in conformity with that precedent, and as the Committee was composed of five members oppo site to four members on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, he trusted there would be no further oppo sition to the appointment of the Committee. • Mr. SHEIL said that the case alluded to by the Right Hon. Baronet was the case of an individual—this was the case of the public. A more analagous case was the Election Committee of the Hon. Member for Bath, who was a member of the Committee himself, although ho was the accuser. It was objected that this was a Secret Committee—one great point of that objection would , be obviated if the Hon. Member for Finsbury, who would thoroughly investigate the subject, and in whom the public had confidence, were appointed a member of it. The name of Lord Sandon was then proposed as a member of the Committee and agreed to. On the question being put that Mr. 'Wilson Patten be a Member of the Committee, Mr. HORSMAN moved as an amendment, " That Mr. Thomas Duncombe be a Member of the Committee." Mr. DUNCO MBE hoped the Hon. Member would not divide the House on the subject. He could assure the House he had not the slightest wish to be a member of the Committee.—(Hear, hear.) He had certainly made strong allegation=, and as the Right Hon. Gen tleman stated that there was no foundation whatever for them, he trusted there would be the fullest investiga tion.—(Hear, hear.) He must say, however, that he did not think the Committee had been fairly selected— not according to the customary forms of the House. The selection of Committees had been partly by Mem bers of the Government and partly by Members of the Opposition—he thought that was the course which ought to have been pursued on this occasion. Lord J. RUSSELL would vote for the Committee as at present constituted. He thought they had been named in a fair spirit ; but he must say that he could not consider the Hon. Member for Finsbury in any way disqualified from being a member of it. Dr. BOWRING thought the Hon. Member for Fins bury ought to be a member of the Committee, as that Hon. Member represented public opinion without . the walls of that House.—(Laughter.) That Hon. Member had exhibited peculiar delicacy and modesty on this occasion. —(Great laughter.) He was quite sure the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government would admit. that his Hon. Friend had acted with pecu liar modesty.—(Renewed laughter.) It would very much allay the feeling which existed in that House, if the Hon. Member for Finsbury were appointed on the Committee. The amendment was then withdrawn,and the members of the Committee as already proposed were agreed to. Mr. JAMES begged leave to move the appointment of Mr. Duncombe as a member of the Committee. The House divided on the motion, when there ap peared— For the motion Against it Majority against the motion —76 Mr. WILLIAAIS then moved that M,r. Hume's name be added to the Committee. Dr. BOWRING seconded the motion ; but it was withdrawn after a few words from Sir R. Peel and other lion. Members. Mr. DUNCOMBE then moved, that indemnity be given to those witnesses who might be exam'ned before the Committee. Officials at the Post-office, whose bread depended on their situations, would not give evidence unless they were guaranteed against loss. If those men employed in the inner office admitted before the Committee that they had opened letters, they laid them selves open to an indictment, as they could not produce the warrant. Sir R. PEEL said the Government would, of course, take upon themselves the whole responsibility which might attach to the matter, and none of the subordi nates should be subjected to punishment for acting ac cording to orders. Regarding indemnity to witnesses, any suggestions made by the Committee on this head would, of course be attended to. Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice of his intention to mere that the evidence taken before this Committee be printed. The Committee was again named as originally consti tuted, and finally agreed upon. STATE OF PRISONS. Mr. MACKINNON rose to move fora " Select Com mittee to consider the reports of the inspectors of pri sons, and the state of discipline in the gaols, for the adoption of an uniform system of punishment, with such improvements in the management as can be safely adopted." Improvements had been made in the state of prison discipline by the Noble Lord the Member for London in 1835, and great advantage was derived from those improvements. The reports of the inspectors sug gested several improvements, but there was a great variation in their views. Under those circumstances, he thought it desirable that a Committee should be ap pointed to inquire into the subject, and till they made their report the country would not be satisfied. There was a variety of systems recommended, some re commending the silent system, some the factory system, and others other systems. If a Commission was ap pointed it would not satisfy the public; but if a Com mittee was appointed, he thought it would give satisfac tion. Before the system of solitary confinement was adopted, he thought they ought to have a Committee to inquire if it was not the most dreadful punish ment that could be inflicted on human nature. This system had been tried in Pittsburg in America, and it was not successful. The silent system had been tried in I'entonville, and the Penitentiary, but that produced the most disastrous effect upon the minds of the convicts. It was the object of several persons to take away from the magistrates the power they possessed and to give it to a central board. He wanted a Com mittee to investigate whether this was desirable. He doubted of the principle of centralisation, which seemed to be the order of the present times. There was cen tralisation of the poor-laws, centralisation of turnpikes, centralisation of banks, and centralisation of railways. He would not object to the Right Hon. Baronet being at the head of a Board for carrying out a system of uniform prison discipline, but there was no guarantee that some person in which he could place less confidence would not be placed in the Home-office.—(Hear, hear.) He believed there could be no Government who wished to centralise less than the present Government ; and yet, from peculiar circumstances, a system of centrali sation was spreading v% hick might lead to serious inroads on the liberty of the subject. It had been said that the object he sought would be effected better by a Commis- sion than by a Comoaittee. lie was of a different op inion. A Commission workecl in the dark, and the count' ) felt no satisfaction in readin 97 the report. But a Com' gietee examined openly and girly, and the public say. ► t. he grounds of their delision. 'hie Hon. Member cone hide 'd by moving for the Committee. Mr. WILLIAMS seconded they motion. There! wt .s no subject of more importance than that. He at s alarmed at the intention of the Secret. ary of State to intrc (loco the solitary system before convi, ltion. A more ir human scheme he could not imagine. The Hon. Membe r then read a letter from the Under-Seen itary of Slate tc' the Middlesex Magistrates, stating I. 'tat Sir Junes Graham wished arrangements to be made for the intro duction of the system of solitary confinemen t before co n viction. In America the effect of this system had bee n to produce idiotcy and insanity. Did the ;tight Hon. Gentleman feel justified, as a Christian, in enfor . eing such a system against those who might proved to be in liecent? The greatest delusion existed in reference to the cost of prisoners confined under this system. He had s gown, some time since, that the cost of maintaining each prisoner in Pentonville was not less than 401. a year. The 'prison at Pentonville, which was sufficient to hold 500 prisoners, had already cost 870,0001., and the prisoners there cost not less a sum than 481. 12s. yearly ; wb rile a poor labourer in Suffolk, to keep himself, his wife, and family, did not get more than 201 a year. Then, -with respect to Parkhurst prison in the Isle of Wight,, that had already cost this country 76,0001., and 5,00.0 L or 6,000/. was being spent upon it every year. lie thought a check ought to be put upon these things, and that the Committee asked fur by his Friend should be granted. He would cheerfully second his motion. Sir J. GRAHAM said that it appeared to him gather inconsistent that tha Hon. Member for Coventry should second the motion of his Hon. Friend, considering that they held such different opinions on the subjectof prisons and their discipline. His lion. Friend, who had brought forward the motion, thought the local magistrates showld retain their power, while the lima. Member for Coventiy designated them as an ignorant and ma li gnan t b o dy.. Thellon. Member had fallen into several errors in the statements he had made ; he had talked a good deal about the solitary system—solitary confinement was un known in this country. There was what was called the separate system, but that was as different as light and dark from the solitary system. He thought, upon the whole, that the system, as it now existed, was a good one. Solitary confinement he considered to be indefen sible, as it often led to madness and idiotcy ; but sepa rate confinement, when the party was properly watched, he believed to be the best system that could be adopted. As to the statements that had been made by his Hon. Friend who had brought forward the motion, that pri soners were not allowed to speak even to the gaoler, they were totally without foundation ; the truth was, that the prisoners spoke, if they chose, to 5 or 10 persons in the course of the day, and they were instructed by masters. The separate system in England was combined with what was called the factory system, and by means of that system the prisoner was preserved from the risk of contamination from intercourse, and from the effects of total solitude. The Government had no intention of forcing the separate system on the magistrates of Mid dlesex. All he wished to do was to give the magistrates the best information in the power of the Government as to the mode either of enlarging old prisons or building new ones, and that best mode he believed was to be found in the construction of separate cells. But it must not be imagined from that reason, that it was intended also to force the separate system of discipline on pri soners. As to the motion of his Right Hon. Friend, he could not believe that at this period of the session it would be advisttble to appoint a Committee. That would only have the effect of throwing confusion and uncer tainty into the subject. He hoped his Hon. Friend would not press his motion ; but if lie did, he trusted the House would agree with him in not acceding to it. Mr. WILLIAMS explained. He had not made any charge against the magistrates as a body. Mr. ESCOTT said, in the early part of the session he _ _ had asked the Right lion. Baronet to give his opinion as to the legality of applying the separate confinement to prisoners before trial. He believed that the law merely contemplated the security of the persons of pri soners. that they might be forthcoming on the day of trial; they were not placed there for. punishment. What he wanted to know was this, where was the authority for applying punishments to persons not proved guilty of any offence? He should not go into any controversy as to the various shades and degrees of punishment con tained in the various systems, the silent, or the separate; he wanted to know where the Act of Parliament was to be found that authorised magistrates in England in in flicting punishment on those who were merely placed in prison for safe custody before trial. He had never heard of any such statute on the book ; he should be glad to hear if no such statute existed. But if no such statute existed there arose a much more serious question, for it would then be the bounden duty of the House, in the ab sence of any law, to see that no such practice was continued. Sir J. GRAHAM said the General Prison Act gave the magistrates the power of classifying prisoners; and if that was desirable in any case, it was the most so between convicted and unconvicted prisoners. The pri soners waiting their trial had separate sleeping cells, but they were permitted an intercourse with others during the day, which was not allowed to those who had been convicted. He referred the lion. and Learned Gentle man to the 2d and 3d of Victoria, see. 56. Mr. WAKLEY perfectly agreed with the Hon. Mem ber opposite. He believed that when that Act was passed it contemplated merely the personal' security of prisoners before their trial. He had been much struck with what he had heard in one of the gaols in this country two or three days ago. He found, on inquiry, that the lowest kind of diet was forced on prisoners in that gaol on their remand ; they were not allowed any animal food for the first fourteen days of their detention. Now was that fair or just ? These men were merely suspected of offences. _ _ Sir JAMES GRAHAM—What gaol is that ? Mr. WAKLEY—The New Prison, Cleikenwell. Had he known this motion was coming on he would have brought down the dietary of the prison. He had the statement on the best authority ; the diet was gruel 1, bread, and broth ; they had no meat till after fourteen days. He was so struck with the circumstance that he I stated he would mention the subject in the House on the . first opportunity. He believed the Committee, at this period of the session would be useless; but he hoped, from the manner in which the subject was treated, that he would not object to grant it at an early period of the next. The subject was ono of immense importance, and not only ought they to inquire into the subject of prison discipline, but into the manner in which persons in authority exercised the power of commitment. He had known cases of persons sentenced to hard labour when suffering in the last stage of disease, and living only a few days after their commitment. He had known per sons who had been sent into the infirmary the day they had been committed, and who in a week after had expired. At the present moment, there were a number of idiots in the House of Correction who had been committed by police magistrates for various offences. These were matters which de manded a searching scrutiny. The Right lion. Gentleman had complained of the different views entertained by the mover and seconder, on the subject of solitary and separate confinement. The fact was, the solitary system ought to be known as the demoniacal system. Nothing could be more atrocious or horrible, and when the separate system made any advances towards the solitary, it became objectionable in the highest degree. The Right lion. Baronet had alluded to the Pentonville prison. He (Mr. Wakley) had originally entertained the strongest objections to that system. He had opposed the erection of it when it had been originally proposed, and had used all his efforts to prevent its establishment, because he considered that the system would produce the most horrible effects on the prisoners confined there. He had been called upon to exercise the functions of his office in that gaol, and, knowing the desire there was to ascertain what was going on there he had gone a little beyond his duty, in order to know the effects produced by the system on the prisoners. The result had been most surprising. The prisoners were brought before the jury ' • all persons in authority in the gaol were ordered to leave the room ; the pri soners were informed that they need be under no fear of, consequences—that they need entertain no apprehen-' sion of any danger or inconvenience to themselves from any communication which they might make, and it was again and again intimated to them in the broadest manner, that no person in connexion with the gaol was in the room. They were questioned as to how they were situ ated, and asked if they preferred the discipline of that gaol over any other? Every prisoner examined gave his most unqualified approval of the Pentonville over every other gaol. They all stated that the diet was ample, and that the education they received, and the trades they were taught, were of the greatest service to them, and afforded them amusement. They were asked if, on suffering separate confinement, they found the solitude annoying to them? The reply was, not in the slightest degree. They were asked if they had any complaint to make against anything they found in the gaol? and the answer was, they had not one complaint to make. These results had astonished him, and, having previously ex pressed himself as hostile to the system, he thought it but right to state these extraordinary results of his ex perience to the House.—(Hear.) No doubt separate confinement had the effect of depressing the spirits, and he thought he had noticed something of that sort in the manner of those prisoners; but they all spoke most gratefully of the treatment which they had received, and seemed much rejoiced at the idea of going to the colonies on tickets of leave, and gainir , a n honest livelihood as respectable persons there. He could easily believe that they would be buoyed up by the hope of bettering their condition, and he hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet might be induced to shorten the period of con finement from eighteen to twelve months, if he found that period sufficient for the correction of their moral character. There had ben three cases of lunacy removed from Pentonville to Bedlam. He did not believe that either of those cases had been produced by the discipline of the gaol, and in two instances it had been proved that there had been an hereditary pre disposition to the disease. He thought it his duty to make these statements to the House, as he had origi nally opposed the institution of that prison. Mr. MACKINNON replied. He would not press the motion to a division. Mr. COLLETT, on behalf of Viscount Ingestre, postponed the consideration of the petition of Captain Dickenson respecting the ship Thetis. The motion was withdrawn. Captain POLHILL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to exempt from payment of the stamp duties all policies of insurance made for protection against loss of growing crops, &c., But the SPEAKER having ruled that, in the first in stance, notice of the motion should be given ; and, in the second, that it could only be made in a Committee of the House on the Stamp Act, the motion fell to the ground. Mr. MILNES' motion to call the attention of the House to the papers lately presented respecting the trial of a Maltese at Tunis, for murder, was postponed in con sequence of the absence of Sir Robert Peel. S Mr. TUFNELL, in the abse c..e of Lord Palmer ston, moved for leave to bring i a Bill to continu e t o the end of next sess i on of Parli rtipat ,the Acts of the present session, for suspending ce tiriOetions grounded, upon several statutes for the pr —a_ gaming. gaming. in IA) ' ' tl . 1 .--. Leave was then given to bring the 1." '), °- \' Dr. BOWRING inquired whether the Right Hon: Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade was cognisant of a project of the Belgian Government, for introducing differential duties on tobacco imported into that country, seriously prejudicial to British interests. Mr. GLADSTONE said he believed it was true, but an Act had passed both the Chamber and Senate of Belgium, which imposed a certain differential duty upon. tobacco. He could not conceive anything less likely k , answer the o bj ec t con t em pl ate d. It was a mimicry of the course pursued by grea t er countries.—(llear, hear.; He believed that the diff e renti a l . duty i n thi s instanct.' was exceedingly small. The orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjotzrned at Twelve o'clock. IMPORTANT SALE at LLANRWST; IN NORTH WALES, AND THE EXTRAOR- DLNARY RESULT. Our quiet little happy town has put on additional anirnatio,l during the past week ; indeed tradition does not refer us to anything approaching it. Now a; folks fAe And near are interested in the rise and fall of land, we suspect the accompanying short statement will be acceptable to our readers :—Oh, such a scene of delight and bustle Llanrwst has never before encountered. For several weeks it was announced throughout our princi pality, that a portion of Mr. Mostyn's extensive estase . in this vicinity were to undergo the uncertain fate of the hammer, and it was also made known that Mr. eorge- Robins, from London, was deputed to wield his magic hammer on this important occasion. These circum stances combined, could not fail to induce a great sensa tion, although it certainly had not beon expected that public curiosity had arrived at such a pitch, for the sale was, until a very few days antecedent, announced to take place at our favourite inn, kept by mine host of the Eagle, (Thomas Jones) until public expectation proclaimed the impossibility of the largest room holding a tithe part of the expected audience. Then it was resolved to gain peonission from the proper authorities to have the use of our Town-hall. This granted, the next thing was to fit it up irf A style worthy of the renowned advocate who was apponted to officiate. All this:was quickly accom plished, and in a manner not to be exceeded in the great metropolis. Around all ale arches were suspended wreaths of oak and laurel ; in short, it was not inferior to the manner in which I have seen Willis's Rooms fitted up for a concert in London. Well, the day arrived, or, rather, the never-to-be-forgotten days, the 26th and 27th days of June. The hour appointed to draw up the curtain was twelve, and long before this time arrived the Town-hall was crammed, and in this anxious crowd were lots of ladies who had travelled far and near to hear arid see this Lion of the South. Punctually as the clock struck, Mr. Robins left his inn, accompanied by the Messrs. Williams, the celebrated solicitors, who are the professional advisers of Lord Mostyn and his bro ther. Mr. R. lost no time in making his appeal to an overflowing auditory, and was exceedingly happy in his complimentary allusion to the numerous ladies svlio adorned the hall. He told them that an exordium, which they all seemed to expect, was, in his opinion, " a practice more honoured in the b reac h than the observance," since their time would be so much more effectually employed in proceeding directly to actual business ; however they should not be altogether disappointed, and he very soon won their hearts by ad dressing them in a merry mood, and immediately after wards their golden opinions by producing a competition and an excitement that quite astonished the natives. The leading auctioneers of our parts seemed more on the qui vice than any one else. The biddings com menced quickly, and they proceeded in such an earnest and spirited manner that Mr. George Robins very frequently took the opportunity to compliment his congregation, by saying that throughout all his travels over a period exceeding 40 years, he had never been honoured by a more spirited or liberal audi tory. In this large sale was included a portion of the town of Llanrwst ; and the lands extended for two or three miles off, with a turnpike road on one side, and the river Conway for its boundary. Nothing could be more eligible than such a property. The situation Mr. Robins described in his usual happy way ; and he only stated what is very true, when he assured them that throughout North Wales nothing can exceed the splen did scenery which extends for miles around, and in cludes the peaceful vale wherein our town is placed. The famed water-fall ofßhiader-y-Wennol, so highly and so properly eulogised by the tourists, approximates upon the property and Lord Willoughby D'Eresby's beautiful villa is close by. His wcods are a vast acquisition, inasmuch as without creating any expense, they furnish a landscape for Mr. Mostyn, that is not to be ex ceeded throughout England. The living here is very cheap, and Mr. Robins did not omit it in his eulogy, nor did he forget to remind them of Three per Cents. at par, and money in London pro. ducing at the outside one-and-a-half per cent , nor did he urge these facts in vain, as will presently be seen by the extraordinary results. The estate was estimated (including many of the houses in the town) at 1,7001. a year, and the sale exceeded 70,000 guineas, being an_average . exe2.eding . 42 years' purchase. Mr. Robins alluded to Sir Robert Peel's renowned observations on the corn-laws, at the opening of Par liament, and it had evidently considerable effect, inasmuch as the little doubt that had previously been entertained of Sir Robert's sincerity to adhere to his own law was triumphantly demonstrated last week by the sad figure Mr. Villiers' motion cut in the House of Commons. It may now, in truth, be said to be buried iu the Tomb of all the Capulets, and his yearly farce no longer worth a trial; in short, put upon the shelf, sine die. The good folks of this town look forward with no small anxiety for the re-appearance of Mr. Robins amongst them. It is whispered he will sell in lots during the month of September next an estate within 30 miles of Llanrwst, the value exceeding 150,000/. I took down the prices that each lot produced—it may amuse you to wade through them:— Lot 1 £7,560 0 2 2.940 0 3 2,520 0 4 1,449 0 5 714 0 6 2,646 0 7 525 0 8 1,029 0 9 1,060 10 10 504 0 11 1,218 0 12 567 0 13 798 0 14 420 0 15 2,000 0 16 2,625 0 17 1,155 0 18 1,165 10 19 491 0 20 735 0 21 1,386 0 2'2 157 10 23 6,457 10 24 26 5 25 630 0 26 1,732 10 27 798 0 216. 294 0 29 1,102 10 30 99 15 31 556 10 32 lO5 0 33 99 15 34 346 10 35 137 10 36 525 0 37 357 0 —North W ales Paper. Lot 38 £ll5 10 39 504 0 40 346 10 41 420 0 42 99 15 43 147 0 44 l2O 0 45 94 10 46 136 10 47 48 147 0 • 49 l4l 15 50. 399 0 51. 5 9 53 273 0 54 325 10 55 3,360 0 56 llO 5 57 315 0 58 llO 15 59 231 0 60 367 10 61 1,575 0 388 10 63 157 10 64 420 0 65 6B 5 66 73 10 • 67 609 0 68 472 10 69 693 0 70 976 10 71 3l 10 72 1,071 0 73 1,050 0 74 1,050 0 THE NEW HOSPITAL FOR DISEASES OF THE CHEST AND CONSUMPTION.—The first wing of this truly noble institution, of which his Royal Highness Prince Albert laid the foundation stone on the 11th ultimo, is now ra pidly in progress. The building is so planned, as by successive additions to accommodate from one hundred to two hundred and fifty persons of both sexes. The interior arrangements having, after very mature delibe ration, been adopted by the medical officers, and approved of by gentlemen of experience in such matters, it is ex pected that the new Hospital will offer facilities for treating consumption which no other institution pos sesses. In the warming and ventilation, the heat or temperature will be made to approximate to different climates, and the atmosphere of particular apartments will be impregnated with various gases and vapours. A very beautiful chapel, designed by the same highly-gifted ar chitect, Frederick John Francis, Esq., will be attached to the Hospital, and it is trusted that, by the means of the promised patronage and support, the whole building ma y be completed in the space of two or three years. It will then stand among the proudest of our metropolitan charities. of la st fortune, seve n re [ADVERTISEMENT.] -- GREAT DEBILITY OF THE SYSTEM CURED BY HOLL OWAY ' S PILLS!—MTS. Johnson, a lad gi n a r i n Regent's low, e had as b been for ti y ,e state, ye s a ki rs ill with a der ange d s t omac h, s i c k head-aches, and loss of appetite. She had consulted the first medioal men in the metropolis, but got no relief. She is now, however, by the use of these wonderful Pills, restored to as high a state of health as she ever enjoyed. These Pills should be taken by all persons of sedentary habits, or whose constitutions have been impaired by foreign climates, or the baneful use of calomel. Sold at Professor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand (where advice may be had gratis), and by almost all vendors of medicine through out the civilised world. STRANGE CIRCUMSTANCE.—On Tuesday last the workmen employed in erecting a new gallery in Harbo rough church, on making an opening in the massive stone wall on the south side of the nave, to support the beam of the gallery, discovered in the very centre of the wall a pigeon's egg, quite entire. How it could have got there is a matter not easily to be accounted for ; and, as that portion of the fabric does not appear to have been disturbed since its erection many centuries ago, hap bably was deposited there at that period, and ,by being thus carefully excluded from the atmosphere, been preserved uninjured through so many generations.— Northampton Herald. Our sporting readers will be g lad to learn that Al 4. Baily has engaged Mr. J. F. Herring, sen., to paint a portrait of Orlando, the winner of the Derby Stakes, 1844, the subject of the important case in the Court ct Exchequer, which was yesterday brought to a conclu sion. `Ye have no doubt, from the happy manner in which that gentleman has brought out the portraits ot severa l winning horses, that Orlando will sustain the character of both Mr. Herring and Mr. Bally. We regret to state that Joshua Scholefield, Esq., one of the representatives for this borough., is labouring under severe indisposition.—Birminghem Gazette. , wog' ) l ig efl g 100,8 i i 1 I V ~i