The Sun. — London, England, 1844-07-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, LO DO. TUESDAY MORNING, 23, 1844. it— ----- 1te,400,0001 The estimates for the last four years , strongest terms his assertion that he had not brought it trueas larger than for ten years previous, though it forward from any hostile feeling towards France, but sti es i taey had not maintained the same number of from anxiety for the honour of this country, combined a‘ short catnrnision. Yet tl.is country would be enabled with a spirit of good-will towards our great and generous to e el period, and with the comsent of that House, neighbour. aa: a, !level demonstration worthy of its great fame Mr. HUME said he was. at first afraid that the Liberal loas ees. al Power. They had voted 33,000 seamen and party on that side of the House were about to play the de re When the naval estimates were under consi- game that -had been pursued on former occasions, of k nell " , the Gallant Commodore opposite said that urging the Government into hostilities, but the there was a number of ships in commission in he was glad to hear from the Right lion. tai this terranean, they were not properly manned. He Gentlemen that his motion was not so intended. sie a ri u w iN to slim that the number of ships in commis - It appeared to him that the motion, as taken up Tie, as "t a proper estimate of naval strength. by the Right lion. Baronet, involved two questions : i n ae, Y 'night have a comparatively small number of ships first, how much they were to expend on their naval they ati L ' e tsslon, well manned and appointed, and yet force, and, secondly, how far the House was to interfere Eel more be more strong in naval power if they had in negotiations with respect to the first question, about li on ships but not so effectually manned. The Right which the Right lion. Baronet felt rather toe sensitive. topecrentletnan called for an account of the fleet: he He thought the more the Parliament knew about the des tastion 11° Hon. Member would second him on such a tination- and disposal of the navy the better. He thought cesa.. Be had now stated all that he considered it ne- the Right Hon. Baronet deserved the thanks of the li oe. l 6 e to say with respect to the motion of the Right country for the reductions he had made, and wisely tuleman. He had attempted to show, that if, in made, in the naval establishment. There was a power iliejer`a7 acquiesced in the continued occupation of ful war party in France, and a very mischievous one. tlicour•Y Prance, they bad acquiesced in consequence of Every act of the English Government was turned by acquiescence , e of society, and in consequence of the precede that party to the purposes of excitement. And what was bla ine :l e iescence of their predecessors, which he did not more likely to create that spirit than unnecessary arms, w as but, in girine. that acquiescence, it m:nt on the part of England? He was alwae s for keep it enai e ltPected that ?ranee would state that ing up a proper force ; but there was this consideration, Th at de " not extend its conquests to Tunis or Morocco. that when England armed, all the rest of the world armed Peeellecelaration had been made. The Noble Lord must also—when England increased her fleet, France ine wh en t that this question of Algiers had been discussed creased her's also. They would not believe that Eng appearte,was Foreign Secretary; and if he (Sir Re Peel) land did it in mere self-defence, but would attribute it to tele t rather backward in giving information on this some aggressive motive. With respect to the motion for l oe l a a it must be remem b ere d th a t h e w as only fol- atommittee, hewould ask how this country wo uld have t orci. g the example th a t h a d b een se t hi m by the Noble regarded a Committee of the French Chamber, appointed With te t te was of opinion that it would be inconsistent to inquire into our right to occupy Si nde or the t p oade lle duty of a Minister to give up any corre- island of Hon-ong ?—(flear, hear.) He thought meat and that had taken place between this Govern- England had been ' too sensitive, and too much disposed ep na and that of Morocco on this subject. He trusted, to intermeddle in the affairs of other nations. He be tany ,?_ollsideration, that the Hon. Gentleman would lieved the Goverment of France felt the danger of en lad the Motion to be negatived. If he (Sir R. Peel) taring upon a war, .and with the declaration it had made Ho es ren with reserve on this question, he hoped the that it had no intention of encroaching upon the domi alae,ed.would consider the difficulties in which he was nions of Morocco he thought they ought to be satisfied.. °f an Re had been anxious to avoid the expression He was glad to understand that it was not the intention rite 4,°,Pinion which might tend to diminish - the autho- of the motion to increase the feeling in favour of a war; t erd mis country to maintain an honourable peace. and that, beyond the necessity of keeping up a sufficient 'iews j° E ll4 RUSSELL said, that so far as his own force to maintain the dignity of the country, the Hon. and IDs e and intentions were concerned, he should not have Learned Member was not desirous of going. Pr eseti a . e Y Motion on this subject, and considering the Mr. MACKINNON said, as he did not wish to detain !eceo t h state of affairs with respect to France and Mo- the House from going into Committee, he should ad lefert't e would have waited before he asked for further dress to it a very few words, and those would refer ev er, :on from the Government. He thought, how- chiefly to the occupation of Algiers by the French.' In jud ged !'t as his Right Hon. and Learned Friend had this country, even if there were a feeling in favour of a ti I t expedient to make the motion, it was but jus- war, he believed that feeling would be kept down by the rat eth h ae it 'l to state that nothing could be more tempe- force of the Government. But in France that was not Ike the motion, and nothing more guarded than the case. There there was an immense population, a itio n e t t i l.age that had been employed. He thought the large muse of whom had everything to gain and nothing ote il - on• Gentleman had misunderstood his Right to lose ;by engaging in a war, and who were ready to had rn rie uti on this subject. His Right Hon. Friend rush into one at any time, and fur any reason. Under 183 p made u a statement with regard to what took place in these circumstances, he considered the occupation of Al- G entl es to the occupation of Algiers, but the Right Hon. giers by the French as a good thing for this country. out ' elllan ce s aid now, was it intended, that having been It acted as a safety valve, which carried off the more slsoe th ° woe since 1841, they should now insist unquiet spirits of France. It served as an outlet for the G ent , s evacuation of Algiers ? The Right Honourable discontented portion of the troops of France, - which with substantial was an able debater when he had to deal were exchanged for others more inclined to support the e_ arguments, but, singular to say, when Government. France was in that position in which she th a n to deal With shadows he employed greater force must have external war or internal discontent. Under th ou ivith substantial arguments. They had never these circumstances, he believed that the occupation of t it desirable to make any demand on France Algiers was of the greatest advantage to the whole of te en :sPeet to the possession of Algiers. They had Europe. • - re spec t eor more occasions asked for explanations with Sir C. NAPIER could not agree with the Hon. regarctto future aggrandisements, more especially with Gentleman that the occupation of Algiers by France %St ec ', t e ° Tunis and Morocco ; and assurances on that would be beneficial to this country. He thought the tog, " [ 'ad been given which were considered satisfac- occupation had, and was likely still further to lead, to t hose a i l/c1 t hose assurances had been renewed. Under disadvantageous results to this country. France had aai e t ,r eurtistances he should not have felt called upon repeatedly declared that it was not her intention to ha fo r any further information on the subject. occupy Algiers , bu t merel y to p unish the De y for having °a tho ught th that the demands made by France offered an insult to Fra nce. This p romise, although fait `",„ e , Government of Morocco were but often repeat ed, the Government of . this country had Poet 'net , involved, however, several most im - never de manded should be reduced to writing. We net portent questions ; and if those demands were oug h t never to -hare p ermitted France to take pos ltaa tt ni Plied with, then came the question, how the war session of Algiers, far less Morocco, which was affai r : e ue carried on ? Considering the complexion of ten thousand times more importance to us. Perhaps l'ern t , h ad taken, he was not disposed to press the Go- at the very moment at which he was speaking the Prince apa rt er !t as to their policy on this subject. There was de Joinville was bombarding Tangiers. He , thought, iro n , Y France that had a blind partiality to war, not therefore, that they had a right to call upon the Govern l'rat,:eY hope of keeping up the dignity and honour of meat to take steps for the protection of British interests. se et ,e O , but merely from - a love of war itself. The pre- The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government to th`ei desire of France had manfully opposed itself always became very sensitive when allusion was made e ase, " i t i tlesire among its own people, and such being the to the state of the navy. The present state of the navy Pre ss Il e (Lord J. Russell) would be the less disposed to had not been equalled for ten or fifteen years past. He thet ni Pal the Government the making of statements remembered in the year 1839 the then Government being ‘eille ig "'' be grating to the French people. While he attacked in consequence of the navy being in an ineffi ith r not press the Government to give any answer cient state. The attack was commenced by Lord Cole tat ted sPect to questions on which the might be en! chester, and seconded by Lord llardwick. Now what tho D 1 : 11 diplomatic negotiations with France, yet he was the state of the navy , in 1839 ? We had then 34,165 th p ,i t the Government were not justified in the line seamen, boys, and marines, and 21 sail of the line. dieL'adtaken with respect tonaval defence. It was a very What did Lord Melville, who was a very good authority, tat er 7 a t thing to say that the House of Commons should then say ? He certainly did not join in the attack on apd t ors to control the negotiations with foreign powers, the Government, but he pointed out the necessity of eh s aY in what manner the supplies that had been keeping up a large peace establishment—much larger Cr e o e w riell Y voted had been applied by the Minister of the than we were accustomed to do in consequence easi er : l ' The Right Hon. Gentleman had upon this oc- of the extensive use of steam power, which, the ne r enewed his protest against being asked concerning to a certain extent, had destroyed our coast were 'vat force of this country. Why such questions ing trade, and thereby rendered it more difficult to h aat ecalsonant with precedent. In the times of Chat- obtain seamen for the navy. The Duke of Wellington Oe v „„ an d of Pitt they were constantly put, and the late on that occasion said, "Here we have war in America, and S era s'nraent was constantly exposed to such questions. war in Asia, with an establishment that . is not even ade th e time since, he (Lord John Russell) stated that he quote for the wants of peace." The Right Hon. Baronet ,Ought • ' it much better to have a sufficient force ready himself said that it was impossible to see the exertions to send one out in cases of emergency, and upon which were being made by France and Russia - without te a at °ccasion he was met by a joke from the Right lio n. a pp rehension ; it was impossible to exclude those marl rer°flet• Was it to be said that t he House was to g rant time Powers froth the consideration of the I ouse. He le, r 4e Y , and they were not to ask how it was spent ? (Sir Charles Napier) would quote one other passage e t himself he was one that would not con- from the Right Hon. Baronet's speech, which was a *lit to shale of such a doctrine. Now, what was the strange contrast with the opinions which he held now. the navy of this country in 1838, The Right Hon. Gentleman said" that if it was then ne atriflf the present day? In'lB3B, there were eighteen cessary to have eleven sail of the line in the Mediterta fine. In 1838 thereps , w w h while in twenty u n i t y . , 1844, there were only nean, and two ships at Lisbon, all he could say was that were thirty-t wo. w i n e e . the present time there w frigates, when at seven sail of the line was very inadequate to protect the ter of line-of-battle ships The total num- coasts of this country." Yet the language of the Right thirty-eight, now there 1841 found that ships should awile i r n eo ll y 3B was one hundred and Hon. Gentleman was very different now. In meat of men, wasthirty-six.was If it there were twenty-six sail of the line, with have their regular comple- a naval estimate for 43,000 men. In 1843 the Right they should have it not, he would ask, equally right that Honourable Baronet reduced the naval force to sufficient num b er of ships? Th at 3%000 men,.and the fleet in the Mediterranean to six or might incre ase the estimates, but that could not be seven ships. In 1844, the force was further reduced to helped. In 1838 there were seven line-of-battle ships in 36,000 Men ; and that was what it remained at the pre the M e d iterranean. In 1841, seventeen. In 1844, one, sent moment. The Right Hon. Gentleman said it was and at thes present. moment there were only two line-of- not men at all, but ships that constituted the navy. b se a n tl t e in the Mediterranean. So that, at the pre- Why, the-Right Hon. Geatleman might just as well say di eat, they had only two line-of-battle ships at that fine barracks constituted an army. He depre theirbee sposal. Now he would put it to any Hon. Mem- catcd the sstem of manning ships with marines, as had 18 ' 38 , whether. s _ that was sufficient for every emergency ?In been done -lately with respect to the Caledonia. He p ea 4 l ti n ie on..Friend, the Member for Halifax, in pro- asked, whether it was a fit state for the navy to be in, estimates for 1839, thought it right to go at when they found a ninety.two gun ship sent out with th ak the Considerable length into the subject, in order to show 750 men, which was only the complement of an eighty. Th e . .re was a sufficient force at that time. four gun ship ? There was but one line-of-battle ship oepinion was opposed by several Hon. Members, who to guard the coasts of this country, and that was the ao u t t he d that the force was then sufficient. it was not Queen, which was fitting at Plymouth. It had taken this r n ' what, he would ask, was the state of things at ship three months to fit—she being at present fitting for eine &esent moment ? The present was a Parliamentary a flag s hip. It had been said that we could fitout a fleet in k e _, on, and one which it was competent to Hon. six months. Now, in answer to this, he would just refer iv. 'ulserB who had voted money away to bring forward. to what had taken place in 1840, when it was found to t ait ' e coMplaint was not that the Government had not be of the utmost importance to get a fleet ready of h at ?, a sufficient sum as an estimate for the naval force, the Mediterranean. 'The Vanguard was commis tax 'lle people having this burden to bear, having these sioned in February, and that ship did not arrive b ee e n s i t ° Pay, ventured to ask if, in return, they had a in the Mediterranean until the middle of November. W ee Power sufficient to meet any emergency. There The Caleutta was fitted out at the same time, but did 'e fl ier questions he might ask with respeet to the not arrive until December, and the remaining ships in blest eatunates, but he should be told perhaps - that the tended for the station never arrived at all. Now, he Propec time to do so was at the time they were would ask, whether they could confide in the statement t itti ls e osed. Th ey h a d per h aps gran t e d them with too of the Right Hon. Baronet, when he saii he could do again inc luirY, but when they came before the House what no other Government had yet been able to accome t _ they , might perhaps have some questions to ask plish—Niz., fit out a fleet in six months? The French of n u e what wasbest to be done with respect to the building at the present moment had eight sail of the line in com lar w ships. It would perhaps be necessary to ask what mision in the Mediterranean—they had also ships which b e r ships were ready to be brought forward, or ready to were called commission de rode. These ships were well th e ruebed.—(Hear, hear.) He should be very glad if officered and manned. The French, too, had fifty-three s atiab ecretary of the Admiralty-would be able to give a sail of the line on the stocks, which was just as good as etatrtactory answer to this question ; but he had heard their being in the water. He had always held, and he Zaents which led him to doubt very much whether held it still, that the system of commissioning and pay t4uld be able to do so. But with respect to the ing our ships off was neither wise, politic, nor economie that Of before the House, it was totally distinct from cal. The expense of commissioning a ship and paying foreign negotiations ; at the same time, he be- her off was very great. A ship was commissioned fora short ed beet that the objection stated bY the Right Hon. Ba- time, as occasion might require, and when the necessity had ae was well founded—that although there might not passed away, she was immediately paid off, and she re niene;',Y. Positive danger, perhaps hardly any inconve- mained in ordinary until another occasion arose, when m granting the information called for, yet it they were obliged to go through the same course over . it In ° i t e be made a bad precedent at another time, when again. Now, under such a system as this, how was it t eeat gl be desirable not to give on authority a state- possible for young officers—our lieutenants and mates— otejeeti thereforen of any particular force. That in the navy to learn anything of seamanship They atly ion, , applying to any Government, and could not do it unless they were kept constantly at sea. with hP e se of Commons, would, he hoped, have weight One ship had lately returned from the Mediterranean, fur th is Right Hon. Friend, and that. he would not press where she had been for three years, ha v i n g tha t _e Production of the informaien. But he must say been stationed at. Malta during that time. i ttot ; w ith reg ar d to nego ti a ti ons , he should not be at all Now could the officers on board such a ship as th e ( reed by any c l amou rs that might be raised as to that learn anything of seamanship ? As far as the' t " e minent being indifferent to the national honour. gunnery went no doubt they e xcelled, but of seaman leetieugland th e G overnm ent were charged with neg- ship they knew very little. The Boar d of Admiralt y th e the national interests and honour ; and in France had lately built six experimental brigs. He had hoped °tal: each Government was subjected to the same to see those brigs sent out in which young officers had 'Moe to e lle should be disposed to pay but little atten- been placed, in order to acquire so me ex p erience in their tad ike t hese statements, nor would they be sufficient to profession. This , however , had not been the case. He tio es „ L inn to take any step to interfere with negotia- hoped and trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet, who pesitioulat might be pending. But with regard to the seemed to be a good deal influenced by obstinacy—. eie nt of the country generally, he did think that suffi- (Laughter)—would yet honestly come to Parliament tee., a ttention had not been paid to the state of the and ask for more men for the navy. th er J e T ia (`: Hear, hear," from Sir C. Napier.) He thought Lord INGESTRE could not agree with the Hon. Il s tla )e ,_- eat ' l fo b r e u c e n a culpable neglect, and he should wish a Member for Montrose in saying that it was essential maintained to sapport the dignity of the that our establishment should be reduced to the least 'a, and to avenge any insult. possible standard, for if they were to do so they would 34 . AIILNES 'said he was glad that the Noble abolish the school in which our officers and seamen at- Lord die sent state" not view with any great apprehension the pre- tanned their experience. When the Hon. and Gallant bond J. of affairs in Morocco. Gentleman who spoke last alluded to the attack was .L.RUSSELL said what he stated was, that he which was made upon the Government in 1839, lirot. without apprehension. he must have forgotten that at that time to ea , MILNES—He did understand the Noble Lord great fears were entertained of a Turkish war. th e ! that he' did not regard with any immediate fear The ships were now fully and efficiently manned,' but a k er v ',.esent state of the relations between France and very different state of things prevailed in 1838. He tate t : c 9 ; he, therefore, thought that he had rested maintained that the change in this respect was one of of be; l t o ta ostroligly On what he thought the culpability great importance to the honour and interest of this ova' f JestY s Government as to the amount of the country. Complaints were made in 1838 of the want of auti t ,„" r ee. The Noble Lord appeared somewhat too ships at home. It was of the greatest importance that (4 . 11 to have the navy put upon a war footing, but he we should be ready for every exigency, and that the at ef fe ,_. l ines) believed that whatever might be the aspect officers and seamen should be kept in a proper state of teig t j" -5 at present, the Noble Secretary of State for Fu- discipline by cruising in the Channel. One reason why th e affairs would be so far equal to his predecessor in he had always maintained that ships should be suffi art 64 t illfOrt ° protocolising," as to be able to defer that ciently manned was, that in case of necessity the men fessedlinate event for a considerable period. He con- might be made into two companies, and the deficiency great t . , , r had seen the notice of the present motion with supplied by landsmen. tt aderg n e a was of opinionthat because he thought its purpose might be mis- Sir G. COCKBURN said he of they eoe s i d • It should be remembered that there was a should always keep up the number officers and sea for th Frable war party in France, and it was necessary men, but, at the same time, it was usual to lower the bke' 18 COUlary to act with some ' caution, so as not to armaments in time of peace, and it was for the Cabinet ite that French G Party, and thus increase the difficulties of the to decide, upon a calculation of the chances of war, whe erieeet overnment. He referred to the occupation of the it was necessary • Lion ila bY the French his to have a large fleet, or t h at ~ and stated convic- only a small oae.—(Hear.) Every officer in the navy Peopl e it entailed a great loss on the French stated that the greatest inconvenience arose from having th en With . regard to the present operationa, the ships undermanned. ..He had always thought that it disc he he should be the last to treat with was better to have one ship efficiently manned than two th usi t: .14 sovereign virtues, and the reliious en- imperfectly.—(Hear, hear.) With reference to the titre of the native population, yet he felt s that the observations of the Noble Lord the Member for the City Of civil wh en • en tney must receive the advantages of London, he must say that although the force was not_ Pric e of a lum, even if they should obtain it at the hard a largo one, it was respectable, and, as he had already l t he wh ai w ar. He thought . that it was impossible that said, it was for the Cabinet to judge whether there was er ranea. the African coast, bordering on the Medi- any chance of war or not, and to act accordingly. The of ba r h a %c ri o s uld any longer be abandoned to these hordes Gallant Commodore had referred to the sending out of w aron et He hoped, however, that the Right Hon. 1 marines in the Caledonia. The marines having been w oul d he would see that the best course he could adopt used to the great guns were quite as competent to man ow e ;7 I ithdraw the motion. And in doing so it them as the seamen, and therefore they had taken 150 b well if he would reiterate to the House in the !of each. All their ohips now carried very much thought there would be the greatest possible difference between those two motions. It should be recollected, that if a motion were made to inquire into the mode in which the French became possessed of Algiers, it would be for the purpose of ascertaining the conduct, not of the French, but of the English Government. No such grounds existed with respect to Hong... Kong, and, there fore. :he held the cases to be entirely different. His Right Ilon. Friend had been found fault with by some for starting a question of such a delicate nature as this while negotiations were still going on between England and France; and it was said by the Hon. Member for Lymington, that, considering there was a party in France who were anxious for war with England, who were likely to overpower the Government of France, and compel that country to go into a war with England. That being the case, it was very inexpedient in that House to discuss our foreign interests, or to inquire whether our naval establish ment was in a position to meet any sudden emergency. He (Lord Palmerston) utterly denied the force of that argument, and on the contrary, if such an argument were propounded on the facr of the existence of such a party in any other country, that argument would rather lead to the opposite conclusion than that which bad been drawn from it; for, assuming that in France or any other country, there was a party likely to overpower the Government of that country, and to compel that country to commence war with Engla.hd—so far from that being a reason for this country being silent on the subject, he thought it was a reason for additional vigilance on the part of the Government in securing the means of meeting such an emergency. He discarded from him the considera tion of such a circumstance. He thought that House ought not to permit itself to be debarred from looking to the interests of this country, whether those interests con sisted of foreign commercial relations, or the means of military defence, by any consideration as to the feelings of persons in any foreign country. He hoped they would always abstain from unnecessarily wounding the feelings of any party or any country, or unnecessarily producing irritation in our own; but he held that the interest of England ought to be a paramount consideration; and it was not becoming in that House to be deterred from entering into the consideration of the conduct of a Government by speculations as to how it might agree with the feelings of this or that Govern ment, or the opinions of this or that party in any coun try. His (Lord Palmerston's) Right Hon. Friend had taken a course which was perfectly legitimate. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite chose to assume that his Light Hon. Friend had argued that the present Go vernment or the late Government ought to have called upon France to evacuate Algiers. His Right Hon. Friend had used no such argument. His argument was, that looking at the negotiations which had taken place in 1830 between the British Government and the Go vernment of France, with respect to Algiers, looking to those negotiations, the Government of that day had not properly performed their duty in getting security from the Government of France; and, therefore, confidence could not be placed in the energy and the vigilance of the Government with regard to those negotiations. He thought that argument a perfectly fair one, and if any body would take the trouble of reading those papers which were laid before Parliament in the year 1839, which were very short on the negotiations respecting Algiers ; they would see that this country had failed entirely in extracting from the Government of France those epgagements which were important to be obtained. He thought they had a right to require from the Government of France engagements, formal, official, written engagements that, in the event of the overthrow of the Regency of Algiers, the French should not obtain any permanent internal advantages or aggrandisements in Africa. As surances were given verbally, and everybody knew that verbal assurances went for nothing, and were binding upon nobody but the man that made them. The Go vernment of this country pressed the Government of France to give written assurances, and that Government wrote a dispatch to their Ambassador here, in which they stated that, in the event of success, they would make their views subservient to the wishes of their allies with regard to the arrangement of the affairs of the ex isting Regency. The Government of this country still pressed for written and specific declarations, but nothing more specific was received from the Government of France, and the expedition sailed without any specific and written declaration being . made. That expedition was successful, and upon hearing of this, what did our Am bassador at Paris do ? On hearing of the success of the expedition, he waited •on Prince Polignac, and congratulated him upon the event, and expressed a hope that now they had succeeded in their expedition they would not fly from those as surances which they had given before the expedition sailed. Was that the language which ought to have been used by our Ambassador ? Prince Polignac assured them that Trance had no inclination to depart from her promises. If proper negotiations had been entered into before the expedition sailed this would not have been the language . used by either party. It might •be said that the Government of that day were actuated by a desire to keep in office the Ministry of Prince Polignac, and by a desire to do something useful to the dynasty then reigning. But everybody knew long before the change took place which overthrew that dynasty that it was inevitable. In the January preceding there was no man who walked the streets of Paris who did not well know what was about to happen ; but the existing Government in this country did not attempt to obtain any specific declaration in the four months succeeding the change. Was it for them- (the late Government), when they came into office in 1830, to take up a question that had been left in that state by those who had gone before them? Considering the existing state of Europe, they did not think it was consistent with the interests of this country that they should call upon France to eva cuate a country which they had lately conquered, and conquered without any interference on the part of the preceding Government. But the Right Bon. Gentle man himself had said that he did not impute any blame to the late Government, and, therefore, it was not neces sary for him to defend himself or his colleagues in any way on that point. He quite agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman that it was not expedient to go into any details upon this question, as he knew how expres sions which fell from persons in office were caught at and used injuriously to the public interest. He ab• stained from entering into that question. It was, however, one of great importance.—(Hear, hear.) Much had been said with respect to the state of the navy, the result of which was this :—The Gentlemen on the other side when they sat on this were perpetually taunting the late Government with neglecting the navy of the country, by keeping it - at so low an ebb as to render it impossible to be effective. Why, at that time. they had twenty sail of the line, and yet at the present moment, when by their own admission grave and serious matters, which might lead to unpleasant results, were under negotiation, they had only nine sail of the line, three of which were in distant countries, so that they had in fact only six sail of the line in England. The present Government had not carried out in office those principles of national protection which they loudly called for when out of office. Gentlemen on the other side of the House en deavoured to explain why this country had so few ships of the line by Stating that several were in China, but that was no excuse for the navy being in the state it was at the present moment. Then it was said that if there ships as there should be, they were Why, theyany m hade nthat been they could n told thatin some ot work.sm all wfsh T ue h lirlp i e s os , fn h ti e thought, eteysn' ohad many so m showed that the present Administration was not of a very judicious character. The late Go vernment had left the present a force larger than they could want, and their business was to let that force down to what they thought proper, but that they had not done. A proper naval force was, in his opinion, the best economy for England, because the time might arise when it would be necessary. What, he would ask, was better calculated to prevent other coun tries from treating England with insult, than the keep. ing up of a sufficient naval force ? He trusted that what had passed that evening, and the observations that had been made on a former occasion, would lead the Govern ment to take a different view with respect to these mat ters, and that in future they would have a naval force, such as would be considered proper for a peace estab lishment. Such an establishment could not be consi dered as a defiance to any country in the world,—it was simply a defensive system of policy. Such an es tablishment was necessary, in order to keep up a good' understanding with every other country in the world. Whether his Right Hon. Friend would press his mo tion to a division he knew not, but he thought his object bad been attained by the discussion that had taken place. He must deprecate the imputations that had been cast against his Right Hon. Friend of endeavouring to prevent a good understanding between this country and France ; he was sure that all who knew him must be well aware that he had no such object in view. The amendment of Mr. Sheil was t h en w i t hd rawn . C OMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH PRUSSIA. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had some time since given notice of his intention to move for the correspond ence that had taken place between the Prussian Govern ment and England relative to our commercial relations ; he wished now to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman would be enabled to lay them on the table before the end of the session ? Mr. GLADSTONE said he was afraid he could not produce them before the end of the session. ROYAL ACADEMY. Mr. HUME then moved for an humble Address to Academy of Arts, she will be graciously le her Majesty, " T hat, as p atron ess and comptroller of pleased asiledToltake into consideration the laws and regula tions of that institution, with a view of rendering it more conducive to the advancement of the fine arts, better suited to the spirit and circumstances of the present age, and more co nsonant with the originel forward t r s w ard royalthifs on o u m n d o e t i he wished it to be r • George the Third." intention s hown that there was a desire to promote the fine arts nten h t r i i o n n ging of in this country. The Royal Academy had, in his opinion a bused the patronage of the Crown. George the Third intended that it should be open to all, but that intention had been altered by time. The trial that had been given to the artists for decorations for the New Houses of Parliament had done more for the arts in this country than the Royal Academy ever since its institution. It was founded on an erroneous principle, as being self-elected, and gave no chance to rising artists. He referred again to the original institution of the Academy, and contended that it was meant to be open to the public; be expressed his deep regret that this state of things should continue, and concluded by moving his resolution, leaving the House to deal with it as it thought fit. Sir ROBERT PEEL much regretted that the Honourable Gentleman had not had the opportunity of bringing forward his motion at an earlier period; he (Sir R.Peel) might have bee n a bl e more f u ll y to have expressed his strong sense of the obligations under which this country was to the institution of which the Hon. Member had spoken so unjustly. The Hon. Member had menti oned the aud acity of the President of i the institution in having given an opinion as to the exclusion of the public. NOW the Hon. Member ought heavier guns than they did formerly, end it was very necessary that they should be efficiently manned. With very few exceptions the reports made to the Admiralty,;_in reference to the ships which had re turned home, were perfectly satisfactory. They had taken the engines out of the larger steam-vessels, and put them into smaller ones, while for the former larger engines had been provided. The Gallant Officer com plained of the want of experience on the part of the lieu tenants of the navy. Why, almost every captain, oa re turning home, told the Admiralty that there had never been such good officers.—(Hear, hoar) He (Sir George Cockbian) firmly believed that both ships and officers were in good condition. They had a very considerable force on every station, although, as they had the interest of the British merchant to look to in every part of the world, their force was much subdivided. It was true that France had fifteen sail of the line in the Mediterranean, but England had more ships ready for sea than France had both on the stocks and at sea. With regard to the long time which it took to man vessels, he begged to ob serve that the officers were very careful in their selection of seamen, refusing as many as they received, in order to secure an efficient force. He believed that if they had a war with France, or any other maritime power, they had quite force enough for that purpose. Mr. M DRE O'FERRALL was exceedingly surprised at the manner in which the Right Hon Gentleman -had treated the remarks of his Right Hon. Friend. Nothing could be more natural than that having been connected with the late Government, as he had been, he should take an interest in such a question.—(Hear, hear.) The year 1838 had been particularly referred to, and he begged to refer to the opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) expressed at that time. The Right Hon. Gentleman complained at that time that there was but one brig in the vicinity of . the French fleet at the time when it was in the neighbourhood of Mexico. Four ships were on their way at that very time, and they were only. detained by adverse winds, over which the Government had no control. A state of things now existed as regarded the Mediterranean which was very similar to that in ouestion.—(Hear, hear.) The. Gallant Officer who had just addressed the House had compared the complement of men in 1838. Hewes prepared to show that the war complement fixed by the present Board of Admiralty was less that that fixed by the late one. Take the example of two ships, the Collingwood of 80 and the Rodney of 92. What was the number of men fixed by the present regulations for those two ships? Why precisely the same under the late Admiralty for ships of 80 and of 92 guns-759 men. He denied that the larger class of ships were so well manned now as they were under the late Government. After all the results were the things to be looked at. Now, he would first state to the House what were the complaints of men in some of the great naval actions. In Lord St. Vincent's action there were five 74-gun ships, with an average of 575 men. In Lord Duncan's action, the average was 554 to every 74. In the action at Trafal gar, Lord Nelson had sixteen third-rates, with an average of 563 men each. Now a great deal had been said of the wretched way in which the Mediterranean fleet had been manned under the late Government, and yet it appeared from the returns that, in 1840, the the third-rates in the Mediterranean averaged 628 men each, while French ships of the same class had only 598 men. Now he would ask if the calumnies which- had been uttered against the late Admiralty were fair or just? Another accusation which had been brought against the late Government was that they did not keep up a suffi cient force at home. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that seven sail of the line was too small a force to de fend our own ports; yet at present there was no flag ship at Sheerness.—(Hear, hear.) It was stated, in the debate of 1839, that Sheerness might be burned, and the Admi ralty aroused from their slumbers by the appearance of a hostile fleet on our coast—that our liberties and our exis tence were in danger. It fact it was almost impossible to over state all the nonsense that was uttered upon the subject,and he trusted that no Opposition would hereafter be guilty of conduct so disgraceful. He had no hesitation in saying that he apprehended no more danger to Sheerness, from there being no flag-ship there, than he should be for the old palace of St. James's if the cap tain's guard were withdrawn. It had been an old cus tom to maintain a flag-ship at our naval arsenals, and a captain's guard at our palaces—not that any danger was apprehended - but what opinion would they enter tain of a Comtnander-in-Chief if he had so reduced:our forces as not to be able to afford a captain's guard to her Majesty's palaces, or a sentinel at the dock-yard gates? Yet that was what the Ministry had done at the present moment, when it was apparent from the cautious manner of the Right Hon. Gentleman that - our foreign relations were not so satisfactory as could have been wished. The late Government had also been charged with neglecting the building of ships. If the present Government had thought the statements they, made when out of office correct, why:did they not remedy the error when they came into office ? Almost the first thing they did was to reduce the estimates. The late Ministry left twenty-six sail of :the line at sea, and all the yards at full work.- A programme was laid down, by which each shipwright was required to produce' a certain quantity of work in the year. In that year it had been calculated that eight steamers would be built. Three had been launched, two were ready for launching, and three were on the stocks, and would have been launched during the course of the financial year. They had taken a large vote for steam, and the present Government had diverted 10,0001. of it to another object—the providing means to extinguish fires in dock-yards, which might have been provided for by a separate vote in the following year. There was a deficiency of two-deckers in the navy, and one had been set up, but the Gallant Officer opposite pulled that one down, set a three-decker up, which was not wanted, and now, at the end of three years that three-decker was not-more advanced than the two-decker was when it was pulled down. The Gallant Officer said that they had produced fifteen steamers, and he recol lected among them a frigate, which had been converted into a Steamer, an experiment which had failed; in fact, the Gallant Officer wished to turn everything into the system of thirty years ago. A great deal had been said on the subject of their employing pensioners on board ship. At the present moment there were from twenty to thirty decrepid old pensioners on board the Si. Vincent. Mr. S. HERBERT—No, no. Mr. .MORE O'FERRALL was glad to hear it. All he could say was that he had his informa tion from a gentleman, who stated that be had con versed with one of these decrepid old men, who had stated to his informant that he had been at sea 40 years. He hoped he bad not offended any foreign power by his observations. It was not necessary to make any boast of our force; there was no boast so powerful as telling the truth. He had observed with surprise an article on this subject in a Government newspaper, which could not have proceeded from the pen of a newspaper editor, and which, he hoped, had not proceeded from that of a Government official, giving a list of ships. Now, surely it was not necessary, in order to make a show, to put in our list the names of sheer hulks, and vessels avowedly useless. Our real force was about 56 sail of the line, which could be got ready for sea in five or six months at most ; and that was double the force of any other two countries. But his Hon. and Gallant Friend naked what was the use of ships, if we had had not men? Under the late Government the Perseus was moored off the Tower for the purpose of re ceiving men, but the present Board of Admiralty had entirely got rid of her.—(Marks of dissent from Sir George Cockburn.) He was very glad to find such was not the case. There was a Bill before the House for the registration of seamen—a most useful measure, although he feared its provisions were too complicated. He should like to see sailors' homes in all our great ports under the protection of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) Every sailor was 'liable to impressment, and consequently had a claim upon the public ; and if they provided him with a home in every part when he was ashore, they would be conferring a great benefit upon him, and doing that which might be of great advantage to the naval service of the country. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said the circumstances were different in 1839 from what they were at present. We were then at the commencement of those differences which led to the Syrian war ; and the argument of his Right Hon. Friend had been that if it were necessary to keep up such a large fleet in the Mediterranean, it was also necessary to keep up a proper force at home. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the manning of the Col lingwood. Now he could state, on the authority of the captain of the Collingwood, that his difficulty was not in procuring, but in selecting men. The Noble Lord, the Member for London, had asked him about the ships building. Now, during the two years in which they had been in office, they had put thirty ships of the line in a state of efficiency. Sir C. NAPlER—That's not ship-building. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT—No ; but it was equiva lent to building new' ships. With regard to the state ment of the Hon. Gentleman as to the state of our steam navy, he would observe that when the present Ministry came into power the steam navy consisted of 14,000 horse power, and it now consisted of 28,000 horse power. They had also increased the number of 50-gun frigates. Among other improvements which the present Govern ment had introduced, was the making a marine corps of artillery.—(Cheers.) The men of this corps were effec tive and vigorous men, and were in addition to the usual complement of marines allowed to each ship. The flag ships were sent out every year fully manned. The Hon. Gentleman had said that, according to the plan of the last Government, none of these ships ought to sail with out a complement of 800 men. Now he could under take to say, that no ship under the late Government had ever sailed with that full complement, and it did not signify what she ought to have had, but what she actually had. The present Government had increased the actual complement. There were three ships more in commission, and 2,000 men more employed, than in 1839. He thought the motion unnecessary, and should oppose it. Captain PECHELL exclaimed against the mode of building war-ships—the present war-steamers were awkward and unmanageable, and the most efficient of them had been employed in Ireland collecting poor rates. Mr. ROSS said a few words ; after which, Lord PALMERSTON said the House was much in debted to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the motion' he had made. He did not think, after all, that it was open to the objections which the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Governmen had made against it. In- fact, the Right Hon. Baronet in the commencement of his speech confined his critical observations not to the mo tion which had been made, but to the motion which had not been made. The motion of which his Right Hon. Friend had given notice had not even been put on the books.. He was willing to admit that the present motion was preferable to the former ; but ho did not think the former motion deserved the censure the Right Hon. Baronet had cast upon it. • The Right Hon. Gen tleman said it was a motion to inquire into the manner in which the French became possessed of Algiers, and added, that a motion in the French Chambers to inquire - bow the British became possessed of Hong-Kong would be a legitimate course, Now, he (Lord Palmerston) wished to know if that were correct? Nothing could be more disgraceful than that a national monument of this sort should-be indebted for its completion to foreign aid. lle understood that the column had been curtailed twenty or thirty feet from the inability of .the Com 7 mittee to obtain funds. In fact, this, as well as many other public works recently undertaken, showed the ne cessity of a Minister of Public Works in this country. Sir R. PEEL would call upon the House to bear in mind that the erection of this monument was originally a private affair: It had been proposed to erect a monu ment to Nelson on the same principle as the two monu ments to the Duke of Wellington, which had been re cently agreed, to, by private subscription. One of these monuments was in the City, the other at the West-end. He could not help thinking that a spontaneous subscrip tion would be much more agreeable to the distinguished objects of it than a Parliamentary grant.—(Hear, hear.) About 20,0001. had been originally subscribed to the Nelson 'monument, but it was found to be in sufficient. The shaft of the monument was certainly curtailed from that which was originally proposed, but it was in accordance with the opinions of Sir R. Smirke and Mr. Walker, who thought there would be danger in case of a hurricane, and the fall of such a monument in so crowded a thoroughfare might be productive of in convenience.-(Laughter.) Regarding the other ques tion, the donation of the Emperor of Russia, he could only reply that it had been made before the Government had control over the monument. It was then in the hands of a private Committee. His Imperial Majesty, wishing to mark his sense of the kind reception he had in this country and to express his admiration of one of her most distinguished heroes, presented the donation of 500!, which the Committee, considering the slender condition of their funds, did not think they should be justified in returning.—(A laugh.) The gift was made when the column was under private management. After a feiv words from Mr. B. COCHRANE, A rote of 7,5541. was proposed for the purchase of ancient pictures for the National Gallery. The -vote was then agreed to. 6,9001. was then proposed to enable the trustees of the British Museum to purchase certain books, manuscripts, coins, Sze. Colonel RAWDON said there were enough manu scripts in Dublin to form memoirs of all the counties, except two in Ireland. He hoped the Right Hon. Gen tleman, at the bead of the Government, would give some assurance that the publication of these memoirs, would speedily take place. Sir R. PEEL said there was every wish on the part of Government to deal liberally with this subject. It was, however, their duty well to consider whether the demand for these memoirs would justify their publica tion. After a few observations from Mr. WYSE, the vote was agreed to. A vote of 80,000/. was agreed to for the purpose of de fraying the expense of the British settlement and esta blishment at Hong-Kong. A vote of 149,000/. for the disembodied militia in Ire land was also agreed to. On the vote of 19,0001. for the repair of damage done to the gunpowder manufactory at "Waltham Abbey by the explosion, Captain PECHELL asked what precautions had been taken against Captain Warner in the new buildings ? After what they had seen in the papers to-day there really seemed to be no safety. Captain Warner had gone to Brighton—he wished he had gone anywhere else—for the sunken vessel would cause great damage to the nets of the fishermen; The Gallant Officer opposite was there—a party to the transaction—and he wished to know if the Government would remedy the mischief it had caused. Captain.BOLDERO said he was there among forty. thousand, as an amateur. He saw the vessel blown up, but how it was done he could not tell. The resolutions were then agreed to, and the report ordered to be received this day. SOUTH SEA COMPANY BILL. The South Sea Company Bill went through Com mittee, and the report was ordered to be brought up this day. LAND-TAX COMMISSIONERS NAMES BILL. On the motion for the third reading of the Land-tax Commissioners Names Bill, Lord WORSLEY said he objected to clergymen being placed on the list, and he therefore begged to move, to omit the following names for the division of Horncastle and Hill, in the coumty of Lincoln :—The Rev. George Thaekeray, Hemingby ; the Rev. Edward Walter, Langton by Horncastle ; the Rev. Charles Terrott, Wispington ; the Rev. John Fawsett, Horncastle; the ' Rev. Francis Pickford, Hagworthingham • the Rev. Edward Price, Hagworthingham ; the Rev. John Thomas Maine, Harrington Hall ; the Rev. Henry Fielding, Salmonby. Sir G. CLERK said this was a most unusual course. The Noble Lord had been requested to draw up a list for the northern division of Lincolnshire, and in doing so ho had omitted the names of clergymen. The Noble Lord's colleague, who did not entertain the same objec tions, had likewise sent in a list containing the names of clergymen. If they were not qualified for serving they could not act without rendering themselves liable to a penalty. Mr. HUME objected to clergymen acting at all, and would support the motion of the Noble Lord. After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and Lord WORSLEY, strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion Against it 34 Majority against the motion —2l The Bill was then read a third time and passed. GILBERT UNIONS. not to have spoken in those terms of the delivery of an opinion by an honourable man, perfectly independelit of the Hon. Members of this House, who received no salary for the duties he performed, and who devoted the whole of his time to the performance of those public duties and all who were acquainted with the manner in which Sir Martin Arthur Shee discharged those duties must be aware of his ability and zeal. The Hon. Member said there had been a departure of the Royal Academy from the original conditions on which it had been founded. Now he held in his hand the original charter, granted by George HI. in 1768, in which the number of the members of the Academy was prescribed at forty, having the power to elect their successors, there being a provision for the public exhibition of paintings; and by the 17th article it was evident that that exhibition was not to be gratuitous, since it was provided that the profits arising from that exhibition should be applied to the purposes of the Aca demy, after deducting 2001. for indigent artists and their families. He affirmed that it was to the Royal Academy, and not to the House of Commons, that the country was indebted for a national school of art. The whole con nexion which the Legislature had with the Royal Academy was the adhering to the original charter, by providing the Academy with apartments. George 111. granted it apartments in Somerset House, and they con tinued there till the Government appropriated Somerset House for another purpose. Earl Grey gave them apart ments in the building, part of which was appropriated to the National Gallery. They did not ask for those rooms — they did' not petition for them ; they merely received what had been secured to them by sixty years' usage ; and this did not give any Member of that House a right to visit them with that annoyance which the Hon. Gen tleman had done. The Academy had spent no less than 300,0001. in the promotion of art. The Academy, from its own means, provided a professor of painting, of sculp ture, and anatomy—not for their own purposes, but for the general advantage of the arts. It gave gratuitous admission to its lectures to all who chose to attend them, and at its own expense it educated no less than 2,000 artists men who earned their money by the hardest labour, commenced at the earliest period of their existence. Having done all this, it was too much for the Honourable Gentleman to turn round upon them and call them monopolists, and visit them with such censure merely because the House provided them with the accommodation of certain rooms. But the Academy also provided pensions for decayed artists. From whom did Wilson receive sup port in the decline of his life ? Not from the public who supported the widow of Hogarth and the widow of the celebrated engraver Woollet. Not from the Crown. Not from the Civil List. Not from Parliament. But from those funds which wore appropriated to this pur pose.. He would tell the Hon. Gentleman what would be the consequence if they carried their interference too far. They would have no man, like Sir Francis Chantrey, making a bequest, which was really a national one, though given to the Academy, because he felt it was a body independent of Parlia ment; and not subjected to continual interference. Even the expense of an annual dinner was borne out of the funds.. If they might judge of the institution, not merely by the eminence of the men who belonged to it, but by their moral character, he thought he could not speak - of it in too high terms. He had been brought much into intercourse with the members, and he knew the difficulties with which they had to contend in un prosperous times. He saw them always exhibiting the feelings and maintaining the independence of gentle. men, and he did ,not know any class which ought to stand higher in public opinion. He did hope that that House would not sanction the:assault made upon the Royal Academy by the Hon. Gentleman. The Royal Academy entertained great respect for that House; but they would infinitely rather sever all connection with:Par liament and with the Government, if they could only re tain their present apartments on the condition of being subject to constant interference. He saw Gen tlemen opposed to him in politics, who had had as frequent opportunities of judging of the merits of this institution as himself, and he trusted that they would join with him in deprecating this annual interference — that they would permit - the Royal Academy to pursue the honourable tenour of its way, and not risk the evil consequences which he believed would arise to art in this country if they undertook to carry too far the prin ciple of interference with that institution.—(Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said that, after what the Right Hon. Gentleman had so well said, he would only address a few words to the House on the subject. He really thought the Hon. Gentleman had no case whatever, un less he could show that the public had contributed largely to the support of this institution, and even if that were the case, it would be impossible to give a more satisfactory answer to the Hon. Gentleman than he had received from the Right Hon. Baronet. The Hon. Gentleman said that two-thirds of the pictures in this exhibition were contributed by those who did not belong to the Academy. Why . , if they asked those who visited the Academy which pictures attracted most attention, they would find that they were generally the pictures of those who either were, or soon became, members of the Academy.(Hear, hear.) He was really surprised that the Hon. Gentleman would go on agitating this question. He hoped that those who were so deserving of the public respect would not feel hurt at the manner in which this question was being continually discussed. He was sure the great majority of that House wished to see them continue in the same honourable course which they had hitherto pursued.—(Hear, hear ) Lord PALMERSTON said there was no country which was provided with such an admirable school for art without any expense, nor was there any country in which the Government, as a Government, contributed so little to art. Any one who had been to see the exhi bition now taking place in Westminster-hall, must have been struck with the great quantity of talent in sculpture which that exhibition displayed ,• and, on the other hand, any one who went to Trafalgar-square must per ceive how inadequate was the space provided there for the splendid models which required to be exhibited. — (Hear, hear.) Everybody was aware of the lively in terest which the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government felt in works of art, and he hoped that be tween that period and next year he would devise some means by which this opportunity for the display of public works would be greatly enlarged.—(Hear.) Mr. HUME then read a document of the Royal Academy, stating that up . to the 12th exhibition nothing was charged for admission. He could give a very different account of the institution and of the advantages derived from it from that which the House had heard ; 'but he would not trespass on the attention of the House. Sir R. PEEL wished to explain the circumstances to which the Hon. Gentleman had referred. George the Third, seeing that the public would give nothing to this institution for several years after it commenced gave to it 5,000/. a year ; and that was continued until the Aca demy informed his Majesty that they could support themselves by means of the exhibition. The motion was then negatived without a division. SUPPLY. The House then went into Committee of Supply. On the motion for granting 4,4111. for the schools of design, Mr. WILLIAMS expressed his approbation of the vote. Mr. HUME complained that two Members of that House had been refused admission to the Royal Aca. dewy. He thought that was the height of impudence Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman was so good a judge of impudence, that he would not dispute With him on that point.—(Laughter.) Mr. HUME said ho would not be deterred by any ob servations of that kind from continuing to pursue that course which he conceived to be right. Mr. WYSE would remind the Right Hon. Baronet of what had passed on a former occasion, as to the pro priety of opening a gallery for the exhibition of casts from sculpture. He had received two petitions for pre sentation on that subject, one from the society in Dublin, and one from London. He believed that with the sub , scriptions and the donations which would be received, a very small sum would be sufficient to form such a gallery.—The vote was then agreed to. A vote of 2,006/. for the salaries of certain professors in the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge was then agreed to. -• On a vote of 2,345/. being . proposed for the salaries of professors in Scotch. Universities, Mr. HUME said that he approved of this vote, because an account was furnished as to the manner in which the money was expended, which was not the case with the vote to Oxford and Cambridge, and of that vote, there fore, he disapproved..—The vote was then agreed to. A vote of 5,5004 was proposed for the Port Patrick Harbour. Mr.,HUME thought the vote of last year was to have completed the work. Sir GEORGE CLERK explained that this was the balance which last year it had been stated would be necessary to complete the work. Lord NEWRY asked if the Hon. Gentleman had seen a report of Sir John Rennie's on this subject. Sir GEORGE CLERK had seen such a report, but the Government had been proceeding upon the report of Mr. Walker.—The vote was then agreed to. A vote of 6,0001. for the repair of the colleges of the University of St. Andrews's was agreed to after a few words from Captain LOCKETART. A vote of 8,0001. was then proposed for the comple tion of the Nelson monument in Trafalgar-square. The announcement of this vote by Sir G. Clerk was re ceived with loud cheers from all parts of the House. Mr. WYSE wished to ask whether a proposition had not been some time since made by an artist, named Clarke, to complete the monument without charge ? Sir R. PEEL said that certainly such an offer had been made by that artist, but the Government reserved to itself the right of considering the subject. He begged to be uaderstood as not intending to say a word in dis paragement of the artist ; but, in general, nothing could be so unwise as to accept these voluntary offers on the part of artists. Mr. WYSE agreed entirely in what had been stated by the Right Hon. Baronet ; but at the time the offer was made the Government had not come forward to complete the work. There was a deficiency of funds for the completion of the column. Mr. GALLY KNIGHT hoped that the base would be made in proportion to the height. The column had been shortened some twenty or thirty feet, and the base was out of proportion. When be saw such a statue , with such a cocked hat—(A laugh)—he could not help wishing that some more appropriate design had been adopted of showing our veneration for the memory of our great naval hero. Many persons Had taken the figure for that of Napoleon, and this instance of what they considered our national generosity had had a great effect in allaying the irritation against us in France.— (A laugh.) He wished to know whether the lion and the other emblems, with which it was intended to adorn the base, were to be reduced in proportion to the re duced size of the column ? Sir R. PEEL begged to state to his Hon. Friend, that the size of the lion was an open question.—(A laugh.) The Government bad not yet decided on the subject. Mr. B. COCHRANE said a report was prevalent that the Emperor, of Russia had, whilst in this country, subscribed 5001. towards the Nelson monument he Mr. BARNABY then rose to move that three be a quorum on the Committee on the Gilbert Unions. Mr. BROTHERTON said this motion would lead to discussion, and he should therefore move that the House do adjourn. The House divided, when there appeared — For the adjournment 6 Against it.. Majority Mr. BAIiNABY then proposed his motion. Captain PECHELL opposed the motion as one that was quite unprecedented. He thought it was a reflec tion on the Committee, as it implied neglect on their part. He should certainly take every possible mode of resisting the motion. He concluded by moving the ad journment of the debate. Mr. WAKLEY thought the debate had better be ad journed. After some short discussion, the motion was with drawn. Lord ELIOT obtained leave to bring in a Bill to con tinue so much of an Act of the second and third years of her present Majesty as enables justices to grant war rants for entering places in which spirits are sold, with out license, in Ireland. Sir G. CLERK brought in a Bill to transfer the col lection of the duty on licenses to let horses for hire in Ireland from the Commissioners of Stamps to the Cora miSsioners of Excise. The House adourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock. THE FESTIVITIES AT CA ENWOOD.—The grand fete champetre to be given to-day by the Earl of Mans field at his beautiful seat, Caenwood, near Hampstead, pro mises to be one of the most attractive reunions which have occurred throughout the season. The preparations are upon a scale of great magnificence. Upwards of eight hundred invi tations have been issued, and-all the members of the Royal Family at present in town have signified their intention of honouring the Noble Earl with their presence. A magnifi cent tent has been erected upon the lawn, capable a accom modating upwards of five hundred persons, and it has been arranged.t hat that number shall sit down to dinner at one time beneath it. The Royal party will dine within the mansion, covers being laid at the principal table for thirty-six persons. There will be a grand ball in the evening, when the marquee above alluded to will be converted into a salon de dance cir the accommodation of the company. LADY JOHN RUSSELL.—The illness of her Lady ship has caused much anxiety to the Noble Lord her hus band as well as to the Earl and Countess of Minto aid family. The Countess of Minto came to town from Lord John Rus sell's residence, ne.arGodalming, in Surrey, on Tuesday last, when Lady John Russell was considered by her medical at tendants somewhat better; and by the accounts received in town on Saturday we are gratified to learn that her Ladyship was improving in health. The Countess of Minto has left town to visit her daughter. THE WEATHER AED THE CROPS.—The fine genial alternations of rain and sunshine by which the present week has been distinguished, have tended materially to improve the prospects of the approaching harvest. Much of the hay has been already secured, but in passing along the country few hay stacks are to be seen ; the barns have been found generally sufficient to receive the scanty produce, but the year's growth of grass is not exhausted, and the second cut of clover, as well as the after-grass of the meadows, will, in some degree supply the deficiency. The turnip-seed that had remained dormant in the ground, now begin to show itself in vigorous plants, though the crop will be small, from many fields turning out total or partial failures. There will also be a deficiency of straw from the spring-sown corn, and the fodder for cattle in the approaching winter will be scarce and dear. The wheat crops continue to look very flourish ing; they are already "white to the harvest," and they will, according to present prospects, soon fill the granaries. In the bean and potatoe crops we see little difference since last week.—Leeds Meacury. EXETER.—We are informed that, in eonsequence of the completion of the railway to this city, the business of the fashionable hotels in Exeter has not been so brisk at this season of the year for a very long period. The number of wealthy and distinguished strangers who are induced, by the facilities of the present mode of travelling . from the metro polis, to visit our-pleasant and salubrious city, being unpre, cedented.—Exeter Gazette. TERRIFIC THUNDER-STORM.—On Saturday after noon an awful storm of thunder, lightning, and rain, burst. over the towns of Rochester and Chatham. About two o'clock r.x., the wind, which had been south-west, shifted to north-east, when the gathenng of heavy clouds indicated the approach of a thunder-storm. At three o'clock the wind blew a perfect hurricane, and the small craft in the River Medway were forced to have their sails down, to prevent their being blown over. Shortly after three o'clock the storm was at its highest, the rain appearing to be literally pouring down in so many streams, rather than falling in rapidly successive drops, together with repeated flashes of lightning, accompanied with peals of thunder. When the storm burst forth, upwards of four hundred recruits were on Chatham Lines at drill, and before they could get to places for shelter they were completely drenched. The lightning ran about the ranks of the troops with awful vividness, and produced an effect of stupor on several of the men. The storm lasted upwards of an hour, and was accompanied by a severe hail-storm. The torrents of water that ran into the High-street of Chatham, which lies low, made parts of the road impassable. The parade ground at Chatham barracks has suffered considerable injury from the quantity of water that poured down from the ter race. The dockyard school for the apprentices suffered con siderably by the storm, the water having broken the roof of the building. Such a violent storm has not visited these towns since that awful one in August last year, when the damage amounted to several thousand pounds. The storm took the southeinly direction, and when it cleared up the atmosphere was intensely cold. The wheat fields have sus tained some injury, the crops having been beaten down, 'and as the corn is nearly ripe, it will be impossible for the ears to rise again. v Ty w ~ f - ( / 'r - • P r , {., 4.....- ~ i`~-'o WIMP a the PUB _1 ; X:till THE EVENING PA i'IO.IMV STANDARD.—In the deb' te grant either of lagt or. 1841, IN <ll4 stns e •'tpr , cisely which, Sir Robert Peel, IN kl444ljucr to. • . se the grant, freely declared his conviction (4`ovirugh inctitiry into the system generally pursued' hi" the Romanist College was called for, adding that the proposition for this inquiry would most becomingly proceed from the parties more directly interested. !Three years, 'a least, have passed• since this intimation was given, yet we do not' fincr,that the parties directly interested in Maynooth have mani fested the least disposition to act upon it. Maynooth remains, as Sir Robert Peel said on Friday, still in. a most " unsatisfactory position," and it is now full time for the Government to take up the consideration. of the subject. This considt ration, to be effectual for good, must, however, go a great way beyond the constitution and conduct of this particular college.. Narrowing the in vestigation within these limits, almost the only alterna tive at which the Government could arrive would be either to enlarge the grant, which upon the hypothesis would be to augment enormously an enormous evil, or to discontinue it altogether, which, if not a violation of one of the subsidiary engagements of the Act of Union, would be easily employed as a - pretext for charging such a violation. The investi gation to be opened by the Government must take a much wider range ; it must- embrace the considera tion generally of the means of education of the middle class Roman Catholics of Ireland, with a view to reform the clergy of the Church of Rome through the laity of the Church - of Rome—the only way in which the Ro manist clergy, or the peasantry now enslaved to them, can ever be effectually reformed, or the latter can be emancipated. Were the middle-class Roman Catholics in Ireland as well educated as the corresponding class of Pro testants, the power of the priests over the peasantry. would he rapidly extinguished ; and whether we are right.or wrong in our conviction that a prodigious step ssould be made towards the religious reformation of the whole people—it is certain that all, if not made Protestants, would be made incomparably better Roman Catholics, better neighbours, better subjects, and better men. The means or effecting this all-important object may not be easily discoverable, but we believe that they are not hopeless, and it is quite appa! rent that if employed they will be, in the great majority of cases, of certain operation. There is in Ire land already a numerous body of educated Roman Catho lics, and these are universally, except the very feir for whom the tempting prizes held out by faction have proved too strong, peaceable and loyal citizens ; their number is increasing, and, with improved facilities and motives for education, will increase until they become co-extensive with the whole of the middle-class Roman Catholics in the island. 'These men hold an opinion of the present order of Roman Catholic priests very little different from that held by Irish Pro testants, and are at least as anxious as we call be to see that order both improved and humbled. In the in tercourse of life they mingle freely and cordially with Protestants of their - own rank, and are as freely and as cordially accepted in Protestant so ciety. A great deal of this happy communion is due to Trinity College, Dublin, as Mr. Wyse almost acknow ledged while paying a just tribute to the high and honour able spirit of this Irish University, but the debt is due to Trinity College as it is—not to Trinity College a s it would be if Mr. Wyse's proposition of introducing Roman Catholic fellowships and scholarships were adopted. It is because the corporation of the College is and must remain exclusively Protestant, that it is able to teal without partiality or suspicion of par tiality, which suspicion would be just as' destructive of peace as the thing . suspected. The notions of the power of rude fusion in conciliating, the disposi tions of men, long prevalent in Ireland, are strangely contradictory of what experience teaches every where else. If you would have men to unite cordially in friendship or in any common _feeling, you must trust to their voluntary approximation ; and where you interfere at all, interfere only to keep them as much as possible apart upon those subjects. upon which you know that they cannot agree. The means of conciliation hitherto employed in Ireland have been very much like the device of cruel boys, who tie the tails of cats together and throw them across a cord that they may lovingly' 'embrace, or who fling a bone to two dogs at play, to promote their affectionate dalliance. It is not, there fore, surprising that in Ireland " conciliation " always means a challenge to reciprocal hatred. Quite sure we are, that the less any Government attempts to force the Irish Protestants and Roman Catholics into union, the more rapidly they will join in friendship; like all the rest of the world they choose to have their affections at their own disposal. To come back, however, to our immediate subject. What the Government contemplates we do not pretend to know, nor are we certain that they have as yet any digested plan ; and, indeed, we almost hope that they have not, because we think that in preparing prelimina ries for their reform, au amount of good may be ef fected, inferior only to the adoption of an effectual reform itself. Before, in fact, any further step should be resorted to, we would wish to see a report of the constitution, state, conduct, and prospects of all the principal universities on the continent of Europe in which Roman Catholics are educated, whether in Roman Catholic or in Protestant countries. Such a report would be best compiled from the re ports_ of Consuls, for the reports of Commissioners are always suspected, and the value of this re port would be the weight with which it must operate upon the minds of the middle class. The report of. which we speak would, if we mistake not, show that. in every country of Europe, Ireland only excepted, the 'Roman Catholic clergy and laity are educated. in. common, and the Irish Roman Catholics would thus see the fraud, which many of them already suspect, practised in reserving Mayneoth for an exclusively ecclesiastical esta blishment. Let us only reflect for a moment what would be the effect, if the middle-class Roman Chatholics of Ireland should insist upon a community of education as be tween laymen and clergymen. The laity would, of course —honourably ambitious not to come behind their Pro testant fellow-citizens--demand the same liberal and comprehensive education, which so many of them now seek and receive at Trinity College, Dublin, and the priests must submit to the same course of reading. Nor is this all. -The priests could not dare to follow, in the presence of laymen, that abominable.;; line of study which occu pies nearly all their tat:talon in the sty at May nooth. Their fellow-students of the laity would not endure the abominations of Dens and Liguori, or the atrocities of Devoti—at all events if such vile books should still constitute the foundation of sacerdotal edu cation, the Roman Catholic laity would know it,, and would not be shocked and insulted by first hearing the training of their wives and daughters' confessors from the lips of Protestants, and in the vidfence of Exeter Hall. air UNIVERSITY IN7ETIGENCE. OXFORD, Juur 20.—At the annual election, Winchester College, the following gentlemen were placed on the roll, to fill the vacancies that may occur during the year at • New College, in this University :—Messrs. Wingfield, Fox, Baker, Dewar, Mount, Ridding, Bateman, Shipley, Frith, Loveday, and Bathurst. N. Kendall, Esq., has presented the Rev. Nicholas Kendall, of Trinity College, to the vicarage of Tolland, Cornwall, value 1101. per annum. The Rev. H. Fyffe, of New Inn Hall, has been presented with the perpetual curacy of St. John's, London-road, Southwark. The Rev. J. Browell, of Exeter College, has been presented to the curacy of Fulham, Middlesex. The Marquis of Cholmondeley has presented the Rev. T. B. Lancaster to the vicarage of New Houghton, Norfolk, value 681. per annum. The Lord Bishop of Lichfield has presented the Rev. J. Nunn to the perpetual curacy of Moreton-say, Shropshire, value 1201. per annum. The Lord Bishop of Gloucester and Bristol has instituted the Rev. H. H. Mogg to the vicarage of High Littleton, Somerset, value 97/. per annum. The Grocers' Company have presented the Rev. R. J. Har rison to the perpetual curacy of Forden, Montgomeryshire, value 119/. per annum. The Vicar of Bolton has presented the Rev. P. A. Galindo to the perpetual curacy of Bradshaw, Lancashire, value 1501. per annum. The Lord Bishop of Bangor has presented the Rev. J. IN% Jones to the rectory of . Heneglys, Anglesey, value 3831. per annum. The Rev. W. Metcalfe has been presented to the incum bency of St. John, Yeedon, Yorkshire. Lord Henniker has presented the Rev. E. J. Moor to the rectory of Great Bealings, Suffolk, value 230/. per annum. The Lord Chancellor has presented the Rev. R. Williams to the perpetual curacy of Stoken Church, in this county. The Earl of Westmoreland has presented the Rev. J. Oliver to the vicarage of Warmington, Northamptonshire, value 107/. per annum. ' HER MAJESTY.—The apartment selected fur the accouchement of her Majesty at 'Windsor Castle is in the Augusta Tower, situate between the Victoria Tower (in which are the suite of rooms appropriated for the nursery of the in fant Royal Family) and the York Tower, and commands a beautiful prospect to the southward, ext en di ng over the Long Walk, Windsor Forest, and the Great Park, and bounded by the richly-wooded scenery of the Surrey hills. A deputation from the Society i for the Employ ment of the Distressed Needlew om e n n London, consisting of Lord Ashley, M P., Mr. Alderman Farebrother, and other gentlemen, attended by Mr. Roper, the hon. secretary, had an interview with Sir Jamos Graham, at the Home-office on Saturday last, upon the subject of the low prices which work is taken in at the various prisons and other establishments, to the great detriment of the industrious poor ; when the Home Secretary was pleased to express his anxious desire to afford all possible attention and assistance to remedy the evil complained of. The Great Western Railway Company have sold their premises in Princes-street, City, .to the L nion Bank of London, for 28,000 L, including the landlord's fixtures. — Railway Record. Ili E GOLD Du ST Disco V EltY .--A good .deal: of jocular gossip is being bandied about here on account of a considerable quantity of glittering sand, which 'the officers and seamen of several of the guano' ships have brought home in bags in high hopes that it is gold dust. It was discovered by a party of sailors on the African' coast opposite Ichaboe, a few miles inland, and of course Jack saw that his fortune was made at once, if he had but as..much spare canvass as would make sufficient bags for' the treasure and the belief that that part of Africa was once called the ,‘ gold coast" instantly confirmed the fact. The "golden op portunity" was iinmediately seized upon, and every "palm" and "sail-needle" set to work ire bag-making. The ore has actually arrived, and is reported officially ; and in the im port list of last week we see noted the " Clansman of Glas ow, Peck, from Ichaboe, with 530 ton s guano to A. and J. Downie, and 21 bags supposed gold ore to the' trfaster." Since its appearance here all our amateur chemists and alchymists have been experimenting on it with crucibles and blowpipes, but unfortunately none of them having "a phi all the experiments. ended - in Spoke. losopher's stone," However, we learn, that properly qualified- chemists from Edinburgh, who possess the secret, and who have some re collection of the method used by George Heriot in•a4saying the sands he procured from the Leith shipmaster, are to be in Glasgow directly with their entire apparatus, and we wait the result with considerable anxiety ; meanwhile we may re , mind them of the sound orthodox of the.S6ottish proverb— "lt's no a'goud that glitters."—Glasyou, Chronicle. - efor e ' o 0 o f Do oec li ; 00- pritl' ' a 1115 ce 11°1 ,a a a' ris fic !- n ifie Sig lit' tbe e1 335° nstu or t'