The Sun. — London, England, 1803-07-29 00:00:00

had made such an impression upon his mincli . that I even after what had fallen front two Hon. Gentle- I then (Mr. SitertlDAN :and .I\ l lr....Hurcu mom): he could not avoid saying .a few• words. Ifevef , there was a question upon which there•ought to be but 'one heart . and feeling, and upon 'which every ivyni hum must join in sentiment, it must .be Upon the, One which was before the House.' . Thc.Right Hon. • Gentleman had, in conformity to his invariable prac tice, made an attack upon His Majesty's Ministers;: he had accused them of too much precipitation on. . this occasion, and of departing from the praEtice of the House, by proposing an Address on the same day that the Message was delivered. That Right Hon. Gentleman never omitted any opportunity of making - ea' , personalattack upon His Majostyts Ministers, and he had stated that their conduct . upon this occa sion in refusing information was conformable to their.usual condat. He in the most positive nian. ner denied the insinuation oldie Right Hon. Gen tleman; he challenged him, .he dared him to.the proof of his assertion. He called upon the Right Hon. Gentleman to state the , grounds upon which he made such an assertion. He asked .lilm-and.the House, whether there was. ever any .Government more ready to give every information.' in • their power, and to ad in every particular upon the most Constitutional principles ? He should certainly have felt less if the Right Hon. Gentleman had confined himself to a peronal attack upon hint and his Right , Hon. Colleague, but when such an' occasion. as the.. present was taken for tire purpose.of throwing: out general insinuations, he could not resist the nation he felt to make a few observations., :"Fle begged, however; in the most positive and dist inft manner to deny the charge which . had been'brought forward by the Right- Hon. Gentreman, that the present Ministers had adopted the practice of pro.' posing the Address on the satire drty ,on which the Message was. delivered. He recolleaed the time when the 'Right Hon. Gentleman voted for Ad-, dresses, and even for the passing of Bills on the same day . that a Message was delivered, and haknew verY welt whal..tvas the language whiCh the Right-Hun: Gentlemin'would have held to 'any body w,ho,had then•proirose'dta delay of 24 hours, Upon these oc. casions, however, 'the Right Hon. 'GrntleMan would consent to 'pigs a all its stases in one .day ; he then felt none of those qualms about Order, which now appeared to disturbhim so much. Now, how- Hever; when sedition and rebellion broke out, in ' an instance if possible more dreadtul, :more in. -•• fatnous than ever, now, the Right liononrable ' Gentleman had become an • advocrte for a strict adherence --to poin ts Of form, • wh ate v er might Ise the consequence. When this most lespenable Magistrate in Ireland,' both from his'situation and his charamer, had been , attacked 'and :b4rbarously 4nurdeted, were they to decline taking any Measures 'upon a point Of foot 1 - Were they to•wair rill a f e w more murders were - CltitiMitteti, before, they adopted any decisive measures upon the subjed 1' Hi was :sorry to detain the House upon this subjet%, but he really conld not avoid saying a few words,• anti- he trusted that the feelings,of almoit•• every'man .the House would he in unison with hiaown Upon this occasion. That many questions might arise out of this upon which Gentlemen might wish for an in quiry, he did not deny; but that surely eorild.nut lbe urged as an • argumano against the present 'Address.. he thought r the Ministers were g ui lt,' Of any miscooduei, he would have means e nough of, inquiry into their conduct, wirhO t o throwing obstruftions in the way of a measure . to which h e Could state no objection. lila with regard to the question of what was the cause,of this calamity, or whether any blame could be 'attached to Ministers, though it might lotto a very. proper sullen for future discussion, yet certainly had. no connexion with the Motion 'now before the Mouse. The Right Hon. Gentleman 'had; by his Speech on this occasion, done one evil, which it was not in his I>ower to repair;'because he had prevented this measure from being passed w i t h g eneral approba. If one voice, if one feeliog, if one' spirit wa s eL4r necessary upon any occasion ; it was'at the present moment, and under the present • urcum , stances. Air. ArDimm explained, lie said he had 'riot given any Opposition to the Address. Dr. LAWRENCE said, he had not understood Right Honourable Friend to give any oppo. Alition.to the Motion ; and therefore great part , of the Noble Lord's Speech was completely inapplicable. Right Hon., Friend had' merely contended that this was a.stibjed.wbicli ought not to he suffered to go by without further explanation, and therefore be thought that Ministers should give some pledge that they would bring forward .the question for fu. tureinvestigatiori before he agreed to this Motion. lie deprecated the idea of dis Cussing this question, O r r any quest i on of this kind with.passion the chit et ot the H ouse of Commons was Wis dom, and therefore he did out like to hear the Noble Lord call upon them to decide this question Upon their feelittgs or • their patisions. could not help milking, is few observations on t I • v Lit had fallen from his. Honour a bl e Friend (k 1 s HERR:AN); who seemed ty his couttuti to. ' Ride he meant to nig it to leave determined completely to have mistaken take. That Gentle n• n seemed Ins Right Honot Frked. The • Honourable Gentleman 'proceeded then shortly • " trahle to reply to some of . the Observa. (ions of Mr. SHERIDAN in answer to Mr. WIND. 41/ost.—i-le expressed his 'astonishment that Nli nisters should challenge and dare any persons to Olkte when they had with-held any communication ,fiotn the I louse —this threat -the Noble Lord had enforced by throwing it out in a very loud tone of Voice, and by beating the Table with great velte. mence--but, surely,, if they recolleaed the respon. sibility which they' admitted was thrown upon them at the commencement of this dispute, from' the venecatotent which they perhaps wisely .thought it necessary to-adopt, they certainly would not hold such tango:iv-at present ; with regard to the question before the House, he certainly had no intention' of giving it the least opposition. Lord C AniiREAGII obServed, that - . the Learned Gentleman ; 'ln. his ateetript to explain the speech of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Windhatn) on it proposition which was in - itself wholly, un.. 7.oile,led, had only rendered that ipeceh whollY un- He seemed to call on Ministers riot give a pledge that they would enter into all' explantition% that weft - neeessaty on their condu4 relative to the political affairs of treland, whenever that be necessary, which would be - eCasonalde enough, •bet also to call on-the House to retard its proceedings , unless. Ministers acknowledged their own criminality,' a thing shatiwas'absurn upon the face of it.: .Ministers were ready to meet any charge that could be, brought against them, and he hoped they always would be so; but that they should ;td. snit their own criminality, and allow that hare ac. cusation, without the shadow of proof, should be 'taken its prima fade evidence against them; was. a 'thing so preposterous, that the House could not'be entertaioed by hearing it dismissed. This was - a charge that was doublyinconSisteht ; irwas incon. I sistent in the way in which it hadsbeekmade by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr, Witostaa4), and s l rendered still more so by the manner it had been I attempted to be'enforced by the'learned• Gentle- man. It was a charge which was in itself unfounds .ett, and the absurdity of it was made still more ma :nifest by the manner in which it had .been endea. voured to be supported. He liStened to the Propo sition of the Right Hotl. Gentleman with great stir. prise-, misted:With strong indignation, for lie should' I not have conceived, if he had not heard it, ,that the Right Hao.'Gentletriari could have made such coin. meets on the ipeeclt of his Right Min. Friend (the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUIR'.) The wpuld recolleft what was the whole ofthe ohjedion of ,the Right Hen. Gentleman to the present pro. cecding 'of His Majesty's Government, and compare iaswitla-the , condutt of that Right ision.'Gentlemite himself when be made a part of the Executive Go vernment.. Here the Right HoP.,Gentlenian did not objet to the policy el the measure 'offered to the House, but interposed certain pradicallornis in the way of its prompt execution, a course which he had , most furioUsly reprobated on former occasions, and • cansidered' as most mischievoils 'when opposed to a Measure which ;was sound ire policy,end when much of its merit consisted in 'the readineSs of its extfeu- • fiats; and now, when a measure was proposed, .to the policy of which the Right Hop. Gentleman him, self did not object, and which 'obviously admitted '• of no delay, the Right Hon. Gentle Men, started a point 'of form, . and offered it as a reason 'against proceeding upon it, and all this •because the Right • I-lon. Gentleman had discovered on e,sudden that this was contrary to the common usage aed pradiee of Parliament, and that too contrary to his own eX. ‘.l press sentiments, enforced by his' practice when he was one of the Ministers of this Country. But in. ; deed, independent of the authority of the: Right Huts.. Gentleman's former pradice, a tolerable an. s war to his present theory oti the procceditiw of the House, was, that it was not ueusual 'to return to the Throne an answer to its communication on the day it was received by that House; it had indeed been cons idered PerfeeliY proper to do "so, when it was Obviously necessary to take care that no time should be lost, and that was 'really the whole of the .case now before 'the House. Here was a gracious Measage from • His Majesty' so the House, end all that was proposed, by the Address was to aCknow ledge' His Majesty's gracious aanumnication, and to assure His Majesty that the Howe, 'would lose no tune in devising means, or taking such measures as Silty appeai besttr the purpose to which that Coin. inunicatiOn alluded ; sind'hOw any objeditin could be offered to this he was at a loss to conceive, and that the Mote especially on t h e stibjek!'t t. 0, nig I the measure, when a considerable east of its essen. tial merit depended quo its , pratoptness. Right Hop. Gentleman had in the 'course' of his charges against Goverement, alledged that the Ca. pitai of Ireland had been within in ace of being • lost; that .was, of falling into"the hands of rebels. ‘Vhere,:the Right llon.GentleMati,found that fad,- ' he was not able to discuier; he would venture to: I say, that no such fgt had come to 'his knowledge; nor was the Right Hon. Gentleman justified in sup posing that aim was altogethcr a surprise on His l\ilaje sty "s i qovertirtient, - fee they had been employed ► devising souse means' atgaitist i t e nor would the • or, 'Hon. Gentleman find, upon recolledion that - an , y "'" ' I - I'G person in Majesty's overnment had latelyiliehl riot to Psrliament or tin: that there• Ats '' t r such thing as disloyalty to be found in - any'part of Ireland. • It, was very true that some persons, in the warmth of their patriotic feelings, Jnight 7have said that the whole of-that Country was become .extremely loysil;' this was no. more than .a general defed in Melt-tit-as of the best disposed men, that 'of suffering' their wishes to influence their .judg.' ;merits, and attributing soundness to the, whole body, when upon close inspedion they might find some: parts to be unsound. Here however he was anxious ~,to be properly understood ; it was to a part of Lre. , l an d only he meant to attribute this unsoundness. He did nut ' think that the disloyalty there was -increased of late I •on the contrary, he believed 'that the public temper of that Country had materially improved since the rebellion there, and that much of the improvenient of that Country was owing to - the Union, but to say that the whole of it was perfedly , loyal and sound would be preposterous—abat was nor to be expeded, not would that be a true pic ,ture of this Country throughout the whole of the last War. This Country had discovered a disposi tionsimd at one time a very serious one, to Rebel.. lion, as appeared in our Fleet, so,that this Country had not always bean perfedly free from taint, and we' had only to recoiled these things, and also to recoiled what (IMAM the wisdom of Parliament de vised in order to quiet our alarms upon this oi:ca stout; for although we found in that Codtatiy or in this, a wicked knot: of individuals, we kn'ew how .10 follow, them up with precautionary tneaSures as we had done before ; but we were nut t hersfore, to rutl away with the idea, that because:Treasoe .was apparent in some part of Ireland, that shine WaS ISO attachment in that Country to tteGovernmeot ; the truth was, that the attachment of that Country to this_ was • very general, and indeed :nothing nee( better, proof of this . than the very measure which was .now afore ~the House.: Taking the ivied , of this_coo into, coosideration, he could not : help ' pressipgbis.aurprize at the sentiments delivered by the Rigla. Hon. Gentleman who had, in the fellness of his loyalty, overlookeil Live lecture of: this case, for he had opposed to the measure whi c h OepeOded much upon texpedi riono pradtee,by whiCh it itti'4llt be impeded, :nal which pradice he hips& wheo'helcV in ci/illpilitiUrt .with the nsccssi:y o f a case, NIA that tOo on a stibleo . , the Le - of which the Right 1-lon. Gentleman himself aelcntiw ledged, did not admit . of any debate ; and in teed it was impossible to say. thati properly 'speaking, this Address *Mild admit of any debate; Wheii the safety of the State, which was the first con. 'sideration, teas provided for, if the Right Hon. Gentleman could find any ground ,for criminating Mbii , ters, it was his duty, and he seemed not dis_ inclined to execute it, to bring Ministers. to ac. mint, and when he did, they would not he ling, nor, he hoped unable, to meet him, , Dr. LAWRENCE explained, and said, hi' did, not state any; thing of an inquiry into the conduft of Ministers as to any `charge that might be ex. hibited against them ; sill he required `Vas • full' in formation on the state.of Ireland, for the safety of Ireland was dearer to him than an inquiry into the ! crimes or the defeds of any Minister whatever. Mr. ALEXANDER said a few wor.is on the :sobjed of the late Rebellion, and 'tin the wisdom of the measures of Parliament for its suppression. Mr. E A ‘ R IA 'observed upon the Speech of Mr. Wi ND H A M, who had not,' he said, argued on the . impropriety of assenting to the Motion rt:)w before the 1-louse, but who had urged the 4.ropriety of saying a good deal more titan had been said by the Minister In bringing the matter for Ward, but . he ' did not think that what .wassaid by the Right. Hon. Gentleman called for the fury ,Which took place - in opposition to him. It .was said that the Right lion. Gentleman had advanced no argument on this oeca'4ion; now, whether what he urged .was soen4.l argument or not, he would not pretend to say ; it certainly had that appearance to him. If this was a, question to be determined by reason, there was good sense in taking time to consider it, if there was any doubt about the matter ; but if it was a question to be decided by feelings, it had been already'debated toti long. if this Address was . not to he instantly foll Owed up by some measure, he could not see where the'necessity was for this dis. patch. But if some measure was .immediately to follow it, then dispatch •might be an olsjzd. But trout what appeared hitherto, he thOught delibera. Lion would be better than precipitancy,. and he in. dined to be of the same opinion as the Right Hon. Gentleman, to whom the HouseWasmore indebted than perhaps any'. other man in it. . r/P . Ci11i.41..E idiotic(' to what he had said on•former tyccasians tesped to the Loyalty of the People of Ireland. = He did not say that the state of Ireland was pettedly s4le, but that it was tranquil compared to what it had . that the commercial prosperity of it was greatly increased, and that there was every reason to believe that the people of Irelati'd were much better satisfied than . they had been, and this did not appear to him to be' unrcasonab;e; that was all that he had. said. It he had.deScribed the charaaer of Bonaparte, that he had disgusted the Catholics of the North of Ire. tam, and had not pleased the Protestants of the South,. and therefore that he thought Ireland would 'unite . against him ; and if he had been. deceived in some part of his• predilion, he was sorry fur it hut no Gentleman would wish to dwell lor4g on the sell.hundliation ofConfessig his mistake. 'Here he alluded to the patriotic condua °fan Honourable Gentleman , opposite to hint (Mr. Sll R !mi) who had distinguished ltimielf by that spit it to,night..--- Nc observed, that that Gentleman had on various occ a s ions strewn the RUC spirit Of 'a patriot ; on the !day when the Mutiny at the Nore Was announced in that House, that Urn. 'Member had come for. .ward in 'support of Goernment, without any re. .gard to party spirit, and upon all occasions of great and trying emergency he had been a true , friend to his Kkg and.COuntry,—("'thar ! Hear 1 !liar" f rom the. C*sisrellor of the Exchequer and some other Gentlemen near him.). He' then expatiated on the execrable . prineiples of France, upto which the Rebellion in' Ireland Was 'founded. He sup ported the present measure, disapproved of the Sett riirieots littered to.night by Mr. WINDHAM, ,and couclUded with saying they:might, if persiSted'in, do Ireland much ham', and could, do England no (rood. a The qtietion was- then put on. the Addreke; and carried rem. con. . The CHANCELLOR of the EA:CHEQUER then brought up from the :Bar a Copy. of the' Pro. clamation Issued by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, which he said. he was 'commanded by Ins Majesty to lay before the House. The Proclamation being read, I The CH AACIE ALOR of the EXCHEQUER; said, that the House having heard the Prnclatna. ' tion,•inust have observettli j aL lio ii stated whliatetc .Here, tlinurrl inge s committed in the City otf 'the opinion, of those by . whose advice the Procla mation was issued, the: result of a 'dangerous conspiracy against His . Majesty's Government in Leland. He said he was fully aware that he should not have been justified, nor should any consider. ation have induced him to propose . such a measure as that which he now felt it his indispensible, ttuty to submit - to rite consideration of the it the outrages which took plaee, alluded to . in that Pro. clamation, had not been such as omit appear' to every well.cenditioned mind part of a systetn ' direled against the public safety. of Ireland. On. less this had' been so; he admitted that he 'could not be justified in the measure he was about to propose, for however great the atrocities stated in the Proclatnation were, they furnished of them,elves, and uncomieded with other matter, no - ground icr if restraining the general liberty of the'sob . o, in in. fringing on the pri n ciples • of the Con , :iitution Yir the Country. Bur there wai,.a connettion.brlween these atrocties and other qvdtgrss. tulL the measure he was about„lo propose. , flYttf;tfielY fleeeit sary; for • a lth ou gh the Proclamation • aveyeili with perfeet multi :only that t here did •exiiitin Ireland a ,traitorous conspiracy, there were,no proofs with which the House could be furnished nputi that . bubji:6L, But there were occasions . Which, when. they 4xturred, were to . he ?greeted, which were distressing to those who'proposed = measures upon them, for they,ha4 to 'state these minters to the Honse in general terms, omitting the detail of What they knew, subje4l, however, to responsibi lity, if the fa4ts should Ultimately turn out tint to warrant the measures „they Rrup . oged i , andt)y,which a material part of the Constitution of thi F eouhtry, and the Established . Law of the 'Land; was taken away fat a time; but the fans here cane 4 for the Measure he was about to propose. His regard for the public s ifety made it lus indispensible,dury to series;; this measure loess/rod. The fans stifted in 'the - Proelimation itself were alarming; buto he Proela., mation did net contain all that was in possession ef' 1 Government ; they hail much information,. which I "eonld note at present, be disclosed ; end ehe tnea. sure lie had to propose,' he should propose the stints. tiOn of before the House, should separate. It had , .been said 'by an Honourable. Gentleman in the; Honse, that if any applitation was 'made for re, join,. or for the redret4; of a grievance, however : necesiary the redress itself might be, yet if it was. made at the point of the bayonet, with the point of the bayonet iihouid such an epplicatiOn be answered. 'He thought so too; but if any thing could be ac complished. by our Law, Without having recourse to military force, he should always be glad of it; because that Was the course which was most con. genial to our feelings, and confer:n:llde to our prac. tire. He had always deplored the necessity of re. sorting'toehe measure he was now about to propose, which was, to give power to the ExeeUtive Go_ vernment to secure and detain such persons as shall be suspe.led of conspiring against His Majesty's ~. Person and Goverment. As to the:duration Of the Measure; he could at relent say nothing more than' that it 'should be cotemeosnrate with its necessity. The measure which he had first to propose, and Which he proposed with relunance; hnd even regret, was, according to the title of the Bill, for the pur. pose of suppressing Rebellion in Ireland, and for the protenion of the persons And property of His Ma. jesty's faithful subjenrethere. It was to he observed that thiS Motion, however severe it might appear to sante, was strietly constitutional. Power was to be given to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to proclaim Martial Law ; a power which the Crown possessed in virtue of its prerogative in time of aCtual Rebellion, or of Invasion. But in this case, the Martial Law was not to be unlimited ; for a power was to be given to' the Lord Lieutenant, by which t h e ordinary Admini•tration of justice would I be preset ved ; and this power was to be exercised I only 'for the p u rp ose o f suppressing antral Rebellion ; that Wei to 'say, persons charged with admit 'Re belliee shoold be tried by Courts Martial, and, as he hail observeed already', this was no more, or rather lie Shoidd say it was nrui;h less, than the power already possessed by the Crown, in case either of Itivrision or Rebellian, and what was here :proposed was the effect of absolute necessity, and this he' stated to obviate ohjenions to the Measure. 'He had to ob. serve, that if this measure was adopted; he intend. ed to follow it up with a motion fur leave to bring in a Bill for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus AA in Leland. Under this Bill power would be given to the 'Lord Lieutenant to try all persons who shall be charged with Rebellion, under Mar. tial Law. .Hedid not wish to ,extend the power of trying' all persons whom Government shall secure ' and th.taitl upon suspicion by 'Martial Law. He wished to:preserve, wherever that was leVlSiblei ' the admieisteation of civil juitice. Therefore to preserve that practice, it was necessary to suspend the Habeas Corpus, 'for, otherwise, persons sus. petted ,must be Apprehended -by' military warrant. Having stated the ground on which he had to Oro. pose these measures to the House, he proceeded to take a view of the conduct of l e ord Hardwicke in Ireland; which he praised highly. ' He said, thet as soon as the Rebellion was over, that Noble Lord had restored to the people' of Ireland - the advantages -of Civil justice, and the purity of a free Constidt e don, which some persons there had most initetii. musty abused. Since that period 'a great and csi. tient charaeter (the Earl of CLARP), who presided Over the Law: of that Country, had been succeeded by a person 'who once tided the Chair of that House (Lord Redestisle), .of whom 'he would not say any thing, beer:ilk of himrthere was but one opinion in ' that House,' as well as in Ireland, and that was the very highest. Lord HardWieke had had far the last year the beriefit of the advice of that Noble tatd, and wooldieontinue to haVe that advice, and .thereforeethere i was every pledge that the Hone I .could t - visle to have - for Ito: moderate and disereet 1 use of the ,poWer now proposed to he lodged ivith I 'the Lard lieutenant of Ireland ; the House usirthr . ty test' assured that nothing would be clone unneeectioi. ly. hoStile TtO else priticiples of U free Constitution. He then' proceeded to olis,:rve,that some of the doc. . trine he had heard tonight was perfeeily new. When the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. WI konAiss) talked F, of theenanice date House beingagainst the mode now proposed, he seemed to overlook altogether the necessity of the measure,. at)d his attachment to fortis 114(1 got the better even eif his recollection, for he, I himself, when in Administration, had insisted on pas. sing :in Ad like the preeot,'precisely in the manner now proposed.; He did eot mean to say these had not been Marty iSlit:thees in which the House lied 'deferred to aeoilte?'o.iiy the cerktleratitto of a Ms» sage from His Majesty, end that the prattice wat generally' so, but 4rl cases of pr(e,si ng necessity, such 'as nobody" doubted this to be, there were nemeroos precedents fiat* taking a Comemnieation from His Majesty info ''consideration imniediately ; and he had no difficulty in rtpeating what had already been ;said, ' that if' this measure ought to he adopted at all,. it ought to be adapted without delay. He thetelore should hope, that without discussing r' ; bet leaving to be dis cusse d at 'any convenient' op ? 'A ' op. portainity, the c truthet 'of' -all or any part of His ' ,Niajsty's , Goveroment, bur from a con v iEtion of the public; necessity of the ?Hog, these measures would be adopted by the Hoos'e ; but he would not uilc without, taking , rutriee of the condun of an Hon. Geetletnati, who had' -distinguished ' himself now its well as set m.,py otb,C c w:caolcini ( Mr. SH e. ~.ktors),- w hose 'conduct was indeed very different frier) some, o th ers who had spoken o n this needs on. TrieWo,Gentleinan to whom he alluded, had, on menye9CeallUill, tiafr*cid Shell paints of party feel. log tr't he r ood of the Public, and had man if es t e d t h e true 'spirit of APatriot. - Such was the cherafter of his cOOdn‘at,elte time of the Mu t i n y a t t h e N oree Such also Wasonisit conspicu'ously his conduct its the discussion' of the question 'bet ‘Veeti this Country and the Northern POwers; :Such was his condun also on the first discussion of the Contest in which se e :ire . now engaged. The 'words which the Hon, Gentlolan had ' used tvereanetrutrable ; " Let u cat. eider v oot who is the Minister, but where is the