The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-14 00:00:00

t he fabl e Dr. 0 0 ° 1 ;00 shad I the Pro give n in% f th e re' i>l o the ne n* and of three or four Puisne Judges, and yet they had not appointed a sigle Roman Catholic.—( Hear, hear.) In f a et, they had scarcely appointed a Roman Catholic, in a na tion of Roman Catholics, to a single office of trust or power Since their accession to office. And yet that was the power ithey profeEsed to give by statute. That statute spoke of un belia preference and unfair suspicion. and the curse that had e- „ , ataipte u toward- Ireland was a course tit unjust piatference and unfair suspicion, con-iilering their talents. and the number 0 that peop'e.—( Hear.) He now came to an objection ttiat had b een made that would induce him to enter a corn pl-ont and protest that the whole Roman Catholic hada were opposed to how came i t to be • the fact ?—( Hear, hear.) Hitherto the 6 o man Cath o li cs h a d acquiesced in such doctrines —( Hear, ,6 • ) He never h ear d suc h c ha r ; es made against them. elear, hear.) O n the contrary, 'they had been charged with I g` ta g too g rea t a w i s h f or ar bi trary power.—(Hear hear.) "L'iw came it, then, that the Roman Catholics opposed the h re tent Mini s t ry ?—( Heir, h ear .) H e cou ld eas ily answer that question—(Heat, hear)—and in doing so he was autho ri'ed to make a grave charge against some of the present members of the Government.—( Hear, hear.) It had been asserted some time ago that Mr. O'Connell and others had anited to endeavour to excite feelings of ill-will among the teople of Ireland to the people of Eng'and.—( Hear, ar .) Th a t was n ., d ou b t an o ff ence at law. T hey had had a charge in their favour from the Chief Justice. (Cheerin and counter cheering.) They had had a verdict th e Dilation, in g their favour. There could be no doubt but that in Dilation, both o f t h e G overnmen t an d of the Crown lawyers, at was a grave offence, anti it did right to bring men, ay, Lminent men, to Use bar on such a charge.—( Hear, hear. ) E.ut_,hact there been no persons doing this, reversing the words ,„"giand and Ireland ?—( Cheers.) Had there been no per -""' who had endeavoured to excite in the people of England fel' land • of hostility and ill-nature Theirowards the people of reuses "-( Renewed cheering.) ecommendation of the two had been, that the two countries should be bound by sa cl i 3r eeal affection, not one-sided affection, not affection on hostility of the people of Ireland to be returned by England. o and ill-will on the part of the people of h no person in this country endeavoured to excite feelings of ostility in the minds of the people of England, by calling the Pe° Ple of Ireland aliens 9 .—( Cheers.) Affixing to them a term "well bel onged only to persons born out of the Queen's a11egi ,1;.,,, and used for the purpose of depriving them of the ben fit to`niese corporations which had been granted to the people o ;e -gia "—(Cheers ) He would ask why had not the Attor (,./h-General_prosec.uied this person in the Queen's Bench ?- 1 . 1 - " eer s.) How came it that they had had no speech of eleven ,i2urs stating the enormity of his offence ?—(Renewed cheers.) 1 .,, 4 ti e answer no doubt would be, that the words had been spoken p er '" arl iament, and were protected by privilege. But had that b r in any way been deprived of the confidence of the -° "? -- -(Chee ) Had he been marked as a person not Prope to rs• tied,ne admitted into the Queen's Councils ?—(Cheering cou nter -cheering.) On the contrary, he occupied the highestui place there, and he was at the head of the magistracy sad of the law in England, and stood there as the person to , i_:t : e d a ct fe t e h l e in p a r s o o s f e l c l u l- t w io i n against Mr. O'Connell, for having ex it among the people of Ireland.---( Cheers. ) t dea ever heard of anything so monstroas as this ?—(Tre- Fnlestisili_tou:astciohneerZg ) ,:e did not believe that that person held - account of any superiority in his judgments e ntie t tarts over which he presided, for he believed that no than s were more highly paid, or performed more carelessly, those mousewhich w ere p er f orm ed by that functionary.—(lm th_, c heering, and counter ehee:ing.) It was on account of ldeclaration —on account of that hostility to the people of t e e add• that that erson had obtained his office.--(lmmense th e - t er ! from the Opposition, answered by groans-from the Mi eenveireital side of the House.) Well, Government . had . had their the I "—they might have their superiority in this House, but ~t arY s hould n o t prevent h i m from a d vocat i ng w h at h e t h oug h t t ord tl'e cause of the oppressed.—(Loud cheers.) A Noble te sta :PPosite laid great stress and emphasis on having a Pro g,retGovernment, a Protestant Constitution, a Protestant tia l d ei tg,n, and a Protestant Church, in this country, and he th ey ru that what he meant by the word Protestant was, (1,; inould not have any minions of Popery in that of tiel'ornent:— (Hear, hear. ) These were the words abuseadd for Worcester; but were they not terms of Was his were they not contumelious terms ?—( Loud cheers.) 14 4 Right Hon. Friend Mr. etheil— was Mr. Wyse—was 441 Dior &Ferrel, were these minions of Popery ?—( Cheers.) hattonlare than this, two years ago, a Right Hon. Gentleman Q,,tat for ward a motion of want contidence in the existing a p ro _,rnent, which w as carr ied by a majority of one, and the 14:174tnent Of those three gentleman to office had been Ele e d • t ei of wh om h e wou ld on l y say t h at th ey were h ar dl y 0 4 4 2 4 a Position high enough for their merits, The Hun. of t h e " , for Canterbury (Mr. Bradshaw-) a constan supporter t hese p re sent Gove rnmen t, an d on e o f th a t majotity, attacked ai t a , the nma!Painteets ; and said that each of them was a direct bod y ''", tion, and that the Government was upheld by a eisili z ° _ l Irish P apists who were elected by savages not more ch eers 7 4 than the inhabitants of New Zealand.—(Loud they h Such was the language used at that time, and now ea h , i a° Prosecuted some of' the ablest men in Ireland, and . to the -e „ ti ", for endeavouring to excite hostility against Ras, r a ' s °Pie of England.—( Loud cheers.) his belief *ere '''at these directions against the people of Ireland at e belliart of the steel in trade of the party . now in power. laet h t „„ ie ved that they worked upon the prejudices, the honest therarut prejudices. of the people of England. They made elleve that the Roman Catholics were about to hold the ta ete yst offices in the State, and they thus animated them, for (Load",:n Purposes against that portion of the empire.— 'low "leers.) He' alluded to this subject, because it was beca use the that the Roman Catholics could not be placed in office h e 84: they belonged not to the political party in power ; but, v e o h a o la be t ai d • a ' b W ie hat man of the least feeling, of the smallest spirit, atie n d ia - r i n a Pat ty who treated with contempt and insult, and iafjustice, the great body of the Roman Catholics, than 6 o „, t4 iged to an ancient religion, and rho constituted more th at '"u"-c°o of the peoale of Ireland?--(Great cheering.) le, :n 4ff stated what he thought was the injustice done to the *it of Ireland with re and to the administration of justice, aod re gard to the franchise, and the disposal of power " tt e ltr°° ages he would now review the conduct %hi e " different Governments with regard to those hthe fee* Proin 1836, the gentlemen who held aul: t i m e i of Attorney -General and Solicitor-General for Ire athein•-"erroined to give a new direction with regard to the th e e titration of justice ; and for this purpose they directed t quall r° " solicitors that Catholic*. and Protestants should be 0 13j ect I entitled to serve on juries, excepting cases of special L.,..T i n• It appeared by the evidence of Sir Michael the a"'ins that after threeears' experience of this system, iint;-°nOttence of the pe oleo lreland in the administration of ai d - ee Was greatly increa p sed. Evidence to the same effect *as e ,..en by sir W. Som erv ill e ; and let it be recollected that this ,jitlence was given before the Lords' Committee of 18.39, which ~41 appointed to inquire into the state of crime in Ireland. ;railer the administration of Lord Normanby.—( Hear hear.) il T he evidence showed that crime had greatly diminished; that he re was more security for life ; and that property was Lorth more by four or five years' purchase, than it had been years before.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the muni- Z i _ a l e. tranchise, the late Government were of opinion that the ;i73 p_rieciple should be adopted in Ireland and in England. th e ' ~,Ilteise agreed With them, but the House of Lords rejected e ote ,,T l l- _ But had not the people of Ireland good reason to tio nt iL'ain? The late Government were not in the same ti ett. 'utt with regard to administration and legisla- Ic atid It appeared to him, and the people of better were of the same opinion, that on the whole it were N ee for them to have a Government whose administration atalfi;_ voourable to them, although their legislation in their be meat 14_ • bstructed them --than that they should hav e aGovern at bi n 'nose laws wou not be more favourabl Hear, e hear d .) In whose a.ri ti_atihsetrait.ti,onk would be adverse to them.—( ' 411 in 'gut Hun- - Gentleman had Ireland delivered over to kot •, a state of political tranquillity.---( Cheers. ). He did " 4t e:1 ' ,. 4 - n • t . ° exaggerate. He knew there were evils to be hyper which could not be done in a few years ; but the .. °4 the people had improved.—(Loud cheers.) They pati o „ . ? e, confidence in the administration of justice ; the 4 wel e l 4 ealth of the people had increased ; the price of land %Ot is van tea • p L a Wer e . and property were more secure ; and per i•,O se en, i _loure willing to embark capital in the country. He s'iot) the'a the appointment of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord a ! t iooti t i germ, of % Wit " 7 ' The a hope that things in Ireland . woulii . go on Ct. Y. the Noble Lord himself was in favour of =par alt,d J o h, e c ommencement of the present Ministry, he R ussellatrintrri e „,) had expressed an opinion in favour of that Ah _ted '•• His (Lord John Russell's) belief was, and he had au'reiedthat notwithstanding the wrong and injustice gred re .i s t better if the Irish people would have . suited their own art ineree they had remained in tranquilli y, until, by a e eh •otpre scoh ie of strength, they could have produced such si nt ry, es woos the Government and the Parliament of this *N ed ". That have been irresistible in favour of just plan ar' - -.ore Was not the ease. Those who had pos 'gee i nd; Peculiarly the confidence of the Irish people, tti 'Pant at the treatment they sustained. Thetintai„d 't he nev, with great force, that h a y remedy for those pe_sy said th could be obtained from the English Parliament. th e d _ e ,_Only remedy for them would be found in a re krarnme ".'un• It was a matter for consideration with the i t h t at h that cry was to be met. The . Government to th e 11 1 4 . 4 h ‘, s , r 17, motion of their own, or on the motion of tettleeh,idera7Mber for Limerick, who asked them temperately En d torn ". attbjeet, have done so. The Government theionthis. They stood with confidence on the Act of j'• asti c , oc e Y said they would not inquire into the fellness or I :::t ii tt ii i o t ne l_ r t i tie Act of Union, but they of in seemed determined to a n aPpein.ed:erY letter. What was the consequence of that? t i V e had b ee f ront the indictment lately prepared, that meet- Ireland at which betNeen three and andi htlafor i l l Persons had been present. These meetings e Popose of agitating the repeal of the union ; Do - ri he ar ," were passed in favour of such repe 4 1 0 - j t iori o f'', Was it not alarming to find so great IN than f t , the Population of Ireland was discontented? The red that rty Years after the union the people of Ireland due People "t hing but reiiiial could give them satisfaction. %r t e 41 the ni G a _ d _ e various speculations upon the intended con teeae N E I th_ uvernment, and various opinions were given. hlthetattrestaorti,ii;tmeavytiitthhought the meetings were clearly illegal, or circumstances of illegality ; the Govern yawi int_ee issue a proclamation to prevent any fur eitthtile_ron4e: if there said that such would have been a very leh itti eu i d it the meetings were allowed to continue mere dot the l ad not produce any considerable effect, and at 1'1401(4 thei e r - n , s , who presided at these meetings would outWoUla b e - 7'. accord, or else resort to some steps a th o tttrs g e lle RTaoLand_ieerrly illegal, and on such steps proceedings The Government took neither of these Th. t oost oismissed some twenty or thirty magistrates in Al low Lord c:_rig: .manner. —(Loud cries of Hear, hear.") hold ~ ` t Zi_i ellor cid Ireland declared that certain persons Mt, ',oat cOrnnussion of the peace in Ireland, could not te nds —mission tlf %h e ep ee' ree _ . because they held repeal opinions and Co e' had mad rungs, and that after a Member or te4t key tet" " th e certain declarations in the House to t h ey eY should be dismissed for acting gi n "nark e d e °Pinions, although as had been pro b kio n in that He use • ' - eg e t • aronet respecting repeal could be only known by zi kti e ci t, i t h il e4 : r eo tte id p r i use last night. the sentiments of the s es of that House iiear, hear.) In Ise_ ters andik:f or ..,ttetnte 41 . 414 4: bee : Parliament. - rou w gh the newspapers, rga na in ch reland were not aware that the Times, tb o f Mi n i, ron iele, and the Herald, were the recognised Z a r acen ma ta gistr aies e . ( Hear, hear. ) But 4-- thie ri ,i e i e w ith thesaldidrielodelsmissed because they did not act eur n • opinions so delivered . ktirleed :lade "agt istrates w re Those proceed ioeny ! e "en the rio diminish the danger of those meet *tilt°. th e lu g :eaten truste and h m di b s e m r i s a w re h d o attended in who th m e se the meetings,pple relend, by that con m fid e e a n n c s e fe ,, gist racy ef w o were the rnerly attached to t h at un e too " tc nn March • vreyredirecer body. Those me ' etings were • el , the L until October, and then suddenly, de ;trn d a e :ri der-muetellisttirnebg:t7—thord Lieutenant and the Chancellor e meetings which had been hitherto _ea ied by proclamation, and their sup le°4 of . one eiredintetd•—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") ‘erotlnie meeting which extraOradl.'ee attending that proclama character. He alluded Puidigereenta E wh ich was tiontY h eld at 9ontsrf. All the Pre- s hed end ad been made for that meeting, and had been 'ver 4d ed i t declared at the D at:ryfp,dreviously. In fact, it had been uni ta 411 1 y k h gollle ti me onnybrook meeting, which ays before, that a repeal meeting was si tt v i s tP4rkee let i t a i °e o we na'sf ewlai roeia let . not a single step was taken for th7roo oa but (fir were cse wish to be h,e,.,lrd.et do m eetin g ieh monodist !Won was issued upon the Saturday Y„preceded t tsarunday on which 4',l;lriiiirnse e who d that proclama anehar. h ear ei Ponsibl e 14. s at which it was issued.— ill td Sta teru • ) en He wouild h ay—he should be sorry to make t. "; tl La t t they ad.issued it in the hope of blood (Hs—, .1 e an doing so they had acted with a uut carelessness that showed they had not a sufficient value for:life. —( Hear, hear.) What had prevented the people from coming up in crowds ?—( Hear, hear.) What but the exertions of llr. O'Connell and his associates ?—( Great cheering.) Not the care of a paternal Government—( Hear, hear)—but by a few irrespoesible men, and one of those had become a victim in the cause of pe ice._( Hear, hear.) Did not it therefore be come that House to make an inquiry—( Hear)—a s:r:ct an 1 searching inquiry, why that which was known to all the world was not known to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and the Council in which he issued the late proclamation ? ( Hear, hear.) He was not one of those who approved of meetings that were calculated to excite tumults, or might eed in forcible intimidation.—( Hear, hear.) Previous to the commencement of the meeting at Clontarf, the proclama tion he had adverted to had been issued, stating that it was d o.geious to the public peace, illegal, and uncons:itutional.— Hear, hear.) What had been the result of that proclamation? Far diffetent to what it would have been but for the inter ference of Mr. O'Connell.—( Hear, hear.) Put, however, much they might triumph in sending Mr. O'Connell to goal, let them not forget that Mr. O'Connell had on every occasion persuaded the people to keep the peace, and dissuaded them from violence.—( Cheers. ) At the time that he (Lord John nu -sell) had held office, he had on several occasions felt anxious as to the course which Mr. O'Connell might adopt. At the time the outbreak took place among the Catholics of Canada, he had a etched the course of Mr. O'Connell with the greatest anxiety. Mr. O'Connell had held up the conduct of the insurgents to odium, and had warned all who had any con fidence in him not to be guilty of a breach of the peace. Again, when outbreak was threatened by the Chartists of England. Mr. O'Connell told the Irish people that the object of the Chartists could only be obtained by physical force, and that a resort to physical force could not be justified under any eircumstances.—(Cheers.) Then, again, at the time of the agitation respecting trades unions, Mr. O'Connell had not only exposed his popularity, but his life, to discourage the movement in favour of trades' uaions.—( Cheers.) These things were worthy the serious consideration of the Govern ment ; and when multitudes were assembled for the purpose of discussing the obvious and admitted grievances under which Ireland laboured, surely it was some safety for a Government to know, that at the head of that movement, was a man who had always persuaded the people to peace, and dissuaded them from a resort to physical force.—( Cheers.) It was singular that the Government should have taken no steps to put a stop to those meetings, until the time at which the Clontarf meeting was to have been held, and they had nearly come to an end, but having done so, they might very well have stopped them, and waite.i till Mr. O'Connell should have taken some other steps too dangerous to pass unnoticed. But they had thought that it would be better to have recourse to a prosecution, and that prosecution was for all these meetings which they them selves had allowed to pass, for all those acts of which they had taken no notice--(Cheers)—for articles in news papers—which might have been prosecuted as seditious libels— ( Loud cheers)—acts which had been suffered 'to proceed without inters option for nine months together, while one of the persons prosecuted had only joined the Association at a late period, when it might well have been supposed, from the supine ness of the Government that there was nothing illegal in it, and that any person holding repeal principles might safely join it. —(Cheers.) They didnot prosecute them for these separate meetings but for a conspiracy, and he had been reminded by this prosecution most strong'y of the prosecution against Horne Tooke and Hardy.—(Cheers.) They had brought together acts extending over a period of nine months in pre cisely the same manner as had been done in that instance, and which had brought down upon the prosecutors the eloquent denusiciations of Erskine.—(Loud cheers.) These persons were indicted for conspiracy to obtain some common end by illegal means. Those means were the meetings which had teen suffered by the Government to go on without interrup tion for nine months.—( Hear, hear.) He had read the able and temperate speech of the Attorney-General for Ireland, the able and equally temperate speech of the Solicitor- General, and the able, but by no means temperate, charge of the Chief Justice—(Cheers and laughter)— and, for his own part, he could not but come to the conclu sion that the meetings attacked were either legal and innocent, or illegal and criminal. If they were legal and innocent, how could the attending them, or any number of them, constitute a crime? If they had been illegal and criminal, why had they been allowed to pass nine months unnoticed?—(Cheers.) Surely the Government did not expect that these meetings would cease of themselves, when no notice had been given of their illegality ?—( Cheers.) It had been said that they had been suffered to pass unnoticed, because the Government had not at the moment a sufficient force in Ireland to suppress them. It was impossible to believe that such could be the case. It was Impossible to believe that the Government would see k thus to entrap men—(Cheers) —that they would conceal their opinions for the purpose of sweeping all these persons into their net—( Loud cheers)—that they would seek to obtain a conviction for acts which they themselves had passed over unnoticed.—( Cheers.) The indictment was for conspiracy, and it appeared from the charge of the Ch:ef Justice, that the present law of conspiracy was not the ancient law of the land. By the ancient lair of the land, the combination of people in secret to commit injustice was necessary to be proved, in order to substantiate the charge of conspiracy.—(Hear, hear.) The alteration in the law had not been made b. statute. The new law of conspiracy was . what Mr. Bentham would call judge-made law, and he had read a note from the last edition of dale's Pleas of the Crown, which stated that the law of conspiracy had of late been carried -itch fur: ther than it ever had been in ancient times, and that Lord Ellenborough had stated that it had been carried fat enough.— ( Hear, hear.) He ( Lord John Russell) thought that great caution should be used in the application of that doctrine to meetings held for the discussion of public subjects. According to that doctrine, any person might be involved in a charge of conspiracy.—( Hear, hear.) 'rake the Anti- Corn-Law League, for instance. Suppose that, in consequence of scarcity, violent speeches should be made, and persons should be guilty of riot ; it might be very proper to indict those persons for their conduct, but what would they say to an indictment for conspiracy which should include the Marquis of Westminster and Mr. Jones Loyd, because they were mem bers of the Anti-Corn-Law League?—(Cheers and laughter.) or, if a Government of a different opinion should come into power, he could not see why the Agricultural League might not be indicted for conspiracy.—(Cheers and laughter. ) The being present at an illegal meeting, as he had said before, was merely a single point to be proved by evidence, aye or no, and the jury could come to a clear decision upon it. But in a conspiracy everything was involved, everything was important where the law and the fact were at such a. distance from each other, and it required the utmost clearness of head and of understanding to consider the subject. It was obvious that this law of conspiracy might be used for the oppression of the subject, but what was the remedy ? It was that which availed in the can of Hardy and Horne Tooke. It was a fair and impartial trial by jury.--( Cheers. ) Was there such a protec tion in Ireland 2—( Loud cheers.) He returned to the state ment which he had quoted of Sir Michael O'Loghlin, that it had been the practice since the union to strike off Catholics and liberal Protestants from the jury. He begged the House to consider what had lately taken place in Ireland. In the first place, it appeared by affidavit that in the general list of per sons qualified to serve en special juries there were sixty names omitted. Mr. SHAW (Recorder of Dublin) —That has not been stated on affidavit. Lord J. RUSSELL said it was stated in the challenge to the array. (I he Noble Lord here read the challenge.) The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite contradicted this statement, but he (Lord John Russell) believed that it had been ad mitted by the Attorney-General and the law officers of the Crown upon demurrer.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman denied this, but the traversers said there were sixty names omitted, and Mr. O'Connell said that thirty-five of those sixty were Roman Catholics, being a much greater pro portion than was on the array when it was finally struck. He (Lord j. Russell) did not charge any person with fraud, but even supposing that it was done innocently, and with the best intentions, still he thought, under the circumstances, it was the duty of the law officers of the Crown and the Government itself, to see that no advantage was taken of the circumstance. It was the custom formerly in Ireland to exempt Roman Catholics from juries, and on this occasion ten persons had been rejected by the law officers of the Crown, because they were Roman Catholics. This proceeding was of itself suffi cient to deprive those State prosecutions of the moral weight which they would have justly had under other circumstances. It the object of the Government had been to ensure a convic.. tion he could understand the mode of proceeding—if it were in the case of a private individual, where a private right was contested, he could very well understand this made of packing a jury. The Noble Lord then read an extract from the evi dence of Mr. Kemmis, given before a Committee of that House in 1839, when Mr. Kemmis was asked if he did not think that placing the greater number of Prot slants on a jury where, in the ordinary course of the panel, the Catholics would preponderate, was not packing a jury ? Mr. Kemmis said he thought not; and when asked what he thought packing a jury signified, he said " put ting in a jury to convict or acquit." There were only ten Roman Catholics among these forty-eight ; and all the tra versers with the exception of Mr. Steele, were Roman Catho lics ; yet from this roil was st uck out all the Roman Catholics: a circumstance which would induce the people of Irelanl to believe that the jury was appointed to convict.—(Hear.) It was impossible that, under such circumstances, the people could believe that their leaders had been tried by a fair and impartial jury. He could very well understand why members of the Repeal Association should be excluded from the jury—to that he would himself object; but two of these ten persons were not, and never had been, members of the Repeal Association, and had never contributed to its funds. He was, there fore. bound to believe that these two gentlemen had been objected to solely because they were Ro man Catholics, arid that the other eight, whether they professed repeal principles or not, would have been excluded because they were Human Catholics. He held in his hand an affi davit of one of these gentlemen, declaring that he had never been a member of the Repeal Association, and had never subscribed to its funds. With regard to the proceedings of the trial itself, he did not mean to enter into them. With respect to the conduct of the Attorney-General, it had al ready been made a subject of comment in that House, and he had been excused by the Ministers of the Crown. The Attorney-General, in a court of justice, when the Judges were about to enter, surrounded by all the majesty of justice, in the midst of a great and important trial, so far lost his temper, and outraged decency, as to invite a breach of the peace. He had been excused on the ground of irritation by one of the members of her Majesty's Government ; but if such allowance was made for the feelings and irritability of the first law officer of the Crown, should there not also be some allot,v • ante made for the exclamations of the Roman Catholics, who had been for years subjected to the grossest imputations.— ( Hear, hear.) Had not their priesthood been denominated a demon priesthood ?—had not their religion been slandered? — had not the people been called barbarians, and worse than New Zealand.rs ?—and yet they were held less excusable than the Attorney-General, who had transgressed the bounds of de cency. He perceived, by the newspapers of that day, that a meeting had been held to celebrate the liberation of Mr. Oastler—( Hear, hear)-- and a Noble Lord who presided paid all kinds of compliments to Mr. Oastler, who was recognised as the organ of the feelings of a party, but who, perhaps, had given expression to the feelings of that party with too much liveliness—he could not but remember that expressions had fallen from this same Mr. Oastler which might well be com pared with the speeches which had been made by those indi viduals who were the subject of the State prosecutions in Ireland. With regard to the traversers who have been convicted, when they shall have received their sentence your proceedings will he at an end for the present. But would this have any conci liating effects ?—(Cheers.) What do you expect from these proceedings?—( Hear, hear.) Mr. O'Connell, as a trium phant speaker—as a man who had forced the Government and Parliament of England into the concession of the Emancipa tion Act—as a triumphant speaker,was, no doubt, an object of admiration to the people of Ireland, but he doubted much if Mr. O'Connell, convicted by a jury, purposely and expressly of Protestants—( Loud cheers)—convicted and sent to prison, and suffering for the people of Ireland, for whom he obtained such r esu l ts — s uffering, perhaps, in health , at his advanced age, in a prison, would not have a much of e c d tions if of th t e he su p ff e et e ng victim Ire land—hegreater hold very uponm much the affections whom you imprisoned would not have more s y m pa thy than the triumphant leader vie.om you disliked .—( Cheers.) Let them doubted consider what they could do wit h re g ard to the future state of Ireland—whether there were not measures—whether there was not a course, by which they mi g ht reall y unite the people of Ireland to this countr y . The evils of the itresent state of things must be felt on every side. If they considered the finances, what expense must it not cause to govern Ireland by military force and the erection of fortresses ? If they considered the state of their foreign re lotions, and if any differences existed between this country and any foreign State, what advantage would not his Noble Friend have with both countries united, and supported by the feelings and affections of the United Kingdom--(Cheers)--over the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who represented a divided people, one portion of whom was governed only by force of arms ? (Cheers ) On every account they ought to settle the present state of affairs. Let them take care care, if they wished to maintain the union, that the people of Ireland had all the be nefits of that union, all those advantages which they were pro mised, and which had been sanctioned by the Relief Act of 1829. Let them have no partial administration of justice—no partial, no sectarian administration of justice.—( Cheers. ) If the House went into Committee, his first resolution would re spect this subject. He would next endeavour to frame such a franchise forthe people of Ireland as might be agreeable to them and conformable with the law prevailing in this country. If they could not have a 409. franchise, they should at least have one equal to the franchise in this country. Mr. O'Con neil complained that the whole of the agricultural counties of Ireland had not more electors than the sir& county of Y irk ; that while Wales had 3‘a',ooo electors, the county of Cork, which was nearly equal in population, hail only 2,0,;0. These were obvious inequalities, which must be remedied if they wished to proceed in concert, ar.d acted in good faith and up to the engagements of M:. Pitt in 1799. It was not Mr. O'Connell alone who spoke of the inequalities of the franchise in the two countries; but the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Waterford, and the Duke of Leinster, and Lord Charleinont, who were no levellers, no agitators, agreed in representing it as a great evil. They ought, therefore, to set about a cure. They ought to act on the de claration of the • Right Honourable Gentleman in 1817. There were two courses they might pursue. If they main tained the law as it formerly stood, they had truly the sin csrity of scruples, justice to all parties, and security. But if they passed the Act they lost the whole.—( Hear, hear.) He should, therefore, assert that principle in any resolution he should propose to the House. He came now to a subject which nearly touched and related to the people of Ireland, upon which they atte.npted to legislate, but not sufficiently either for the people of Ireland, o r for any person. He alluded to the Ecclesiastical Establishment.—( Hear, hear.) Wherever that was advocated it was invariably stated, that our Establishment raised jealousies, prodttced indolence, and other evils. With regard to the voluntary principle it was stated, that the evil of it would be that the ministers of re ligion would be dependent upon their flocks for support, and that, being so, they would join in every act of political agitation. ( Hear, hear.) With regard to the last objection he had stated, it was evident every where. But the ecclesiastical system in Ireland combined both the objections to which he had ad verted. The people felt that they were excluded—( Hear, hear) —that there was a class paramount over them.---( Hear, hear.) But then he would come to the evils of the voluntary prin ciple. What was the fact with respect to that ? Why that the clergy of six millions and a half of the people of Ireland were supported by it. But it was said that Roman Catholics, to whom the greatest praise was due, were forced by it into political discussion more than any other set of men, and in the Quqrterlg Review he had seen it stated that, by some means or other, it was necessary to remove the clergy from the hustings and the platform. Would it not be better, therefore, to unite both systems in one great principle ?—( Hear, hear.) Then with respect to the union. If the maintaining of the terms of, the union was not in accordance or palatable to the people of Ireland, for his own part a ke could not see any ob jection to the alteration of the Act Union.—( Hear, hear.) He confessed that he did not think they could remove the grievances of the people in Ireland, but by making some alteration in the Established Church. He for one did not think that the voluntary system would be effective. The system he should prefer would be one that would have the effect of putting the Established Church of England and Ireland, the Roman Catholic and the Presbyterian Church in the North of Ireland, upon an equality. He did not however, think that that could be done at the present moment, but if the House wou'd only proceed in a spirit of fairness and impartiality, and grant to the people of Ireland what they were clearly entitled to, he should not despair of the Roman Catholics joining heart and hand with such a proposition. For the pre sent, he thought that everything should be done to improve the College of Alaynooth—( Hear, hear)—and that double the amount that was at present allowed by the Government to that establishment ought to be granted to it. There ought to be greater means given to colleges at which liberal education could be derived. When he spoke of a liberal education, and when he spoke of the Rom la Catho lics of Ireland, he must say that he was not one of those who thought it at all necessary that Roman Catholics should be taken from a higher class of society, or that they should be long to a different class to that to which they at present be longed. He thought there was a great defect at present in their education. Still, however, there was a principle in the Roman Catholic Church which was not unworthy of any ether Christian Church, by which a person, however low, could rise to eminence in the Church. Such, then, were his opinions with respect to this subject. All that he would de at present would be to improve the system of education in Ireland, and to give larger sums towards it. He thought they ought to give the same advantages -to the Roman Catholic clergy, as were possessed by the clergy of the Protestant Churoli. At all events, he thought those derogatory distinc• tions ought to be taken from the Roman Catholic clergy. Why should not the bishops be allowed to call themselves by the name of the diocese over which they were placed ?—(Hear.) Ile thought it was an unwise and a foolish thing not to allow them to do so. Why should not Dr. Murray be called the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Ireland ? He was the Arch bishop of Ireland. His character was held in the highest estima ttii,oen L , o although t e h n e a n t h a o d f I n r o e t lan re d c . eiv i e f d t m he u r c e h w c a o s un an te y na a n d c v e ao f t r a o g m e given by the Act of Union to the Protestant Church, which was nut given to the Catholic Church and the Presbyterian Church, they should at once be abolished. There still ro mained the question of the E tablished Church in Ireland. He believed that Archbishop Whately had put forward a plan to make the Church a Church of c.ingregations and not a Chu: ch of parishes. They had heard last year that even where there were two Protestants in a parish, a minister was endowed with a sufficient income to attend to the spiritual wants of those two versons. In that parish there might have been 3,000 or 5,000 Cathol cs, and it would be evident that no parochial d:stributiou could fairly be made. Another instance was stated las; year. In a parish, where there were 1,000 Protestants, a minister was appointed with 1001. a-year. In such a case as this, he thought the income of the minister ought to have been increased. He thought the income of the Irish Church was more than any Church on the Continent possessed. They had, too, about 450,0001. as a perpetuity fund. How this large amount was applied he was at a loss to imagine. By the aboli tion of the 25 percent, of the tithes of the clergy, a sum of 300,0001. had been saved. Had this sum gone to the exten sion of spiritual instruction—had it gone to the extension of education ? No, it had gone to benefit the landlords. He thought, therefore, that if they could diminish the income of the clergy for such a purpose, they might at least do so to advance spiritual instruction and education. He came now to the most important question of all, namely, that of landlord and tenant. H e w ou ld re f er t h e House to the statement made by Mr. O'Connell on this subject, and if that statement were founded on truth, it became incumbent on that House to enter seriously into the consideration of the subject. Mr. O'Connell said the connexion between landlord and tenant in Ireland was a most vicious one. The labouring population were on the extreme verge of dea;itution. The system had led to the most horrible crimes. It was, therefore, necessary to have such a revision of the system as would give the landlord a fair rent for his land and the tenant a just return for his labour. The landlord and tenant question was one of the utmost diffi culty. It was indeed a task to place these relations on a satis factory footing. It was impossible to read those passages and not to admit that Mr. O'Connell, the leader of the people, hose business it was to hold out for immediate advantages impor tance roefpeal, this question, m ust have been deeply w he e n e hos aiid mpr that et the s e e dw r ola i t t i h o o the of itwas filled with danger. He (Lord J. Russell) would not venture to say what should be the course of legislation on this subject. evidence.Th e Government had He doubted appointed whether a C futth o o m r m os is i sin de o no t 000 was obtain fur the r necessary . Aluchhomadmailsrseier. Such beena o d n y s given statementson the assubjectw b e e r f e o r e i n Committeesth the and c pam phlet entitled " A Cr) from Ireland," and which recorded the proceedings of one of the landlords, Richard Shee of Blackwell Lodge, were truly painful to peruse. The narratives recorded there were truly heart-rending, and he would not venture to read them to the House if they were not supported by good evidence. All these statements could not be wrong, and if there were any of them true, it sufficiently proved that, in the name of the the law, the powers of the Jaw had been abused, and that the power of the landlords had been ex ercised to an extent truly dreadful. He thought it would tend very much to the mitigation, if not to the removal, of those evils, if steps were taken to make the administration of jus tice more pure, and above all, to separate more from the land owners of the country the functions of magistrate. He thought the extension of stipendiary magistrates would be very desirable. In the words of Mr. Fox, he wished to see the laws adminis tered in a spirit of equity and impartiality, so as to give confi dence to the people. He hoped, by such means, that many of those acts of rapacity and violence on the one hand, and venge ance and cruelty on the other, would be curbed and checked ; but he would not venture to say that he knew of any direct remedy for so great, so extensive, and so long-enduring en evil. It was nearly a century since circumstances as horrible and outrages as general as now existed, occurred in Ireland. Let them not think that a few pages of an Act of Parliament would eradicate such evils.—(Hear, hear.) Having now detained the House at such length—(Cries of " No, no," and loud cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—he would not enter into the various complaints which had been made re garding the present condition of Ireland. (The Noble Lord then read an extract from the speech of Mr. Fox, delivered very shortly after the union had been carried, with respect to the spirit in'which that country should be governed, and which expressions were applicable to the present state of Ire land.) Mr. Fox denied that the people of that country were disloyal, or tainted with treason, and with the poison of Jacobinical principles ; arid he said that no disaffection existed, except what had resulted from the faults of misgovernment.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Fox said he knew a great deal of Ireland, both from having been in that country, and from many ptiiiate individuals. He knew that that people were irritable and alive to injury—that they possessed quick feelings and quick resentment ; but he said, that of all the feel ings which actuated them none was more predominant, from the highest to the lowest classes, than gratitude for benefactions and sensibility of kindness. Let the English Government change their system of policy, and they would find them a dif ferent people—let them try the effects of good government, and laws impartialy administered, and there would be no need for military governments or executions. Such were the sen timents of Mr. Fox, who had been long in his grave, and whose remains were interred close at hand, in that receptacle of the great and the good of all ages. Such were the words of Fox—such was the spirit that must animate all who endeavoured to promote the welfare and the happiness of the ish people. That was the system which Mr. Fox, loving Ireland, had said he knew would be a system to conciliate the affections of the Irish people.—( Loud cheers.) The House had now an oppor tunity—a late opportunity it was true, but still sufficiently in time—of realising that which Mr. Fox had said was the true policy fur the country to pursue after Ireland should have been united to it. —(Cheers. ) He was reminded of what had been related respecting another country which had been long greatly disordered after its union with England, and which d been described by one of Scotland's most gifted sons, Sir Walter Scott.—(Cheers.) Sir Walter Scott stated that when George 111. came to the throne, the people of Scotland began to look towards the young sovereign for repose after the disorders and rebellions, and redress of those wrongs which had agitated the country during the reign of his grandfather, after the Acts of Parliament proscribing the language and dress of the High• landers, which had produced irritation and resistance. An officer had been proposed for a commission in his Majesty's army. It was represented to the Sovereign that he fought on the side of the Pretender, and had performed many gallant actions in his service. " Well," replied the King, "if he has fought so well against me, he will, no doubt, fight equally for me." " The reply," said Sir Walter Scott, " was circulated in the Highlands, and, although the Highlanders retained their abstract notions of the right of the House of Stuart, yet such was their attachment liemanda. d t h e ot o h fn e reigning family that they would lay down their li ves f or a Pr i nce o f t h e H ouse o f throne,mH i a t n i e o sa had r and. — fallen( C duringhe Hanover.—(Cheers.) t ) nh eI W r et T hw h e e ra r e gy h roa a tni d nd b gfa e e tQh n eure a e r nin e a b un e py l o l i n c o a n tl — he I there were several oppressive laws enacted, both by the Irish and the English Parliament, and these laws had produced re sistance on the part of the peopl e .—( Hear, hear .) Their pre sent sovereign was as young as George 111. had then been. She was separated from the memory of those calamities. Why should not the present Queen reign over the hearts of her Irish subjects, so that, however attached they might be to re- THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 14, 1844. peal as an abstract question, the real benefits which they could derive from a perfect equality of laws, and from an equal and impartial administration of justice—( Loud cheers)—would bind them to this country by a real, a perfect, and an indissoluble union ?—( Loud cheers.) What was there to prevent such a cle-irable cousummation ?—( Cheers.) Not the personal wish of the Sovereign.—(Loud cheers.) That Sovereign he had had the honour to serve, arid for any one to be more anxious than she was to secure the benefit and happiness of the Irish people was impossible.—( Loud cheers.) He had never, when he filled the office of Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment, received any intimation from that Sovereign that did not bespeak an equal regard for Catholic, Protestant, and Presby terian.—(l.oud cheers.) Who, then, would stand between the Irish peopleand this most desirable consummetion ?—( Cheers.) Who would erevent Ireland from being what Scotland was— ( Loud cheering)—from being united with England by a real union of reciprocal affection ?—( Cheers. ) Would the House do it ?—( Immense cheering.) 11 the House should so decide, then, indeed, would they be taking a heavy responsibility, upon themselves by exposing their country for many yeats to the clangers of a precarious dominion over Ireland, and of dimi nished power with regard to foreign nations.—(Loud cheers. ) But if the House, rising above those prejudices, and showing itself superior to the spirit of party, should desire to unite the two nations together in the bonds of reciprocal affection, and, legislating in the spirit of justice, should rely upon the love and confidence of the Irish people to make that country a glerious inheritance, and the source of strength for England, he would venture to answer for it, that the hopes of the House would not be disappointed. —(lmmense cheering.) The Noble Lord concluded by moving his resolution, and sat down amidst tremendous cheering from all parts of the House. Mr. WYSE seconded the motion which had been proposed by the Noble Lord in the eloqusnt speech to which the House hid just listened. A speech distinguished as much by its eloquence as by its justice, calculated only to awake England to the dangers she was incurring. How marked was the contrast between the present period and the year 1829? In that year they hail a Minister of the Crown corning down, and stating that rather than run the risk of civil war, he would sacrifice his own friends, and break down the structure of oppression which he had assis'ed in building up. The other site had accepted the p ro ff ere d b oon with kinness and affection. When the Emancipation Act had been passed, there was nothing, either in the statute-bock or in the roll of those persons who were to carry out the administration of the country, to show that the Catholics were admitted to its benefits. It might be said of that Act, as of the Reform Act, that it was a failure. There were only two inteligible courses to pursue, one was to act with justice and fairness towards ,the people of Ireland, the other was to act with despotism and force. The conduct of Russia towards Poland was intelligible, so was the conduct of the Norman invaders in Ireland._-( The Right Hon. Gentle man went on to show many instances of oppression and injus tice on the part of England towards Ireland from the invasion. ) But this system not only brought misery to the oppressed, but it recoiled upon the oppressors themselves, as though it w ere ordained by Providence that th e re sh ou ld be a day of retribu tion fur the tyrant. —(Hear, hear.) The penal laws were de vi ed with the greatest ingenuity to harrass and oppress the Catholic people of Ireland. The country grievously suffered under them. When England was in difficulties conces sions were obtained, the people were allowed to receive education—education conferred power, and power led to ' confederation and union among the oppressed. The Catholics first met in a small room in a poor street in Dublin, till, at length, their numbers increased so much that the combination could not be resisted. After a long struggle emancipation was obtained, and the people of Ireland expected from it all the benefits which ought to have follewed it. But the same spirit which so long resisted that act was still alive, and rendered it as little effective ,as possible. With the government of the Noble Lord the first symptoms of impartial government in Ireland were apparent. He recol lected the attacks which were made upon the late Govern ment for the appointment to office of a few Roman Catholics. He was himself in Germany when his appointment was made, and he recollected the observations made in Germany at the time. They asked whether it was possible that a country so free as England, an d w hi c h preac h e d f reedom and liberty to all foreign States, could act in such a narrow spirit towards Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) But so it was. The Right Hon. Gentleman soon after came into power. He looked forward to the Noble Lord opposite, the Member for Cornwall, for impartial justice, but such had rot turned out to be the case. He had felt no doubt that, although they had not the Government of Lord Normanby or the Earl Fortescue, that justice would be done to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) What had taken place ? A State prosecution, for what ?—Why, doing that which every Irishman was entitled to do. Every proceeding had been taken against the Catholics of Ireland that could be. They had been removed from the bench and magistracy, and in the selection of judges the wishes of the people had not been con sulted.—( Hear.) He thought they looked in vain in Ireland for the promotion of Roman Catholics to any offices of honour oe Si ate.—( Hear, hear.) Even if they were offered, he doubted that any man would accept office from any member of the eresent Government.—( Hear, hear.) Every wish of the Irish I, had reached peopl e had been its ul Hear, tin, t e n t m i ( t t h a t e e t a , n t d h a as it concession su r. prising that such things lied taken place in Irelan I ?—( Hear, hear.) Or that the people should say, if the House of Com mons would not redress their grievances, they must look to themselves, and consider the Government the criminal.— ( Hear, hear.) He would give credit to the Government in their proceedings, that they had a wish to vindicate the law, but in doing so, their first act ought to have been to take caf e that they should act with impartiality. Had such been the case in the late trials? Certainly not; Catholics had be e n excluded from the jury, and Tory spies had been employed.— ( Hear, hear.) The people of Ireland believed that they had b.-en struck off the jury list because they were Catholics, and that a very different result would have taken place in the late trials if only one Catholic had been on the jury.—(Cheers.) If they imprisoned Mr. O'Connell, did the Government sup pose that others would not spring up in his place ? If they imprisoned Mr. O'Connell, they might find the necessity next week of a fresh protecution. By imprisoning Mr. O'Connell, they would be only adding fuel to the flame of agitation. He could assure the Government that the followers of Mr. O'Con nell had not diminished in numbers. He could assure them that there was an o.ganised system of agitation in Ireland, which coercion could never put down. The Government were struggling against the repeal agitation ; and yet they were pursuing that course which was most likely to keep it up. The agitation would never be put down by prosecutions, but it might be put down by justice.—(Hear, hear.) Let them do justice to Irelaimd, and they would restore that country to peace; but as longuas they turned a deaf ear to its just de mands, so long would there be discontent and disaffection. 'I he Consequence of the present state of Inland was the depre ciation of property and the One of the great causes of di scontent i n I re l and was t h e li m it e d the tranquillity of Ireland, the Stagnation i o n f e t r r e a a d s teed its ß y p i r n o c s r i e , e a r s i i t n y g . franchise at present possessed by the Irish people. They re quired, tem, an addition to the number of Irish Members. They should be more proportioned to the number of English Mem bers in that House. With respect to the landlord and tenant question, he was glad that a Commission had been appointed to inquire into the subject ; but he could not but regret that persons from the tenantry had not been chosen to form a por tion of that Commission. At present it was a one-sided Cern- mission, and could not be looked upon by the Irish tenantry but as a landlords' Commission. There were subjects for the consideration of such a Commission, into which it could not fairly enter without the assistance of persons who were tenants themselves. The present system of education in Ire land was extremely defective, and reform in that respect teas very much required. He thought the grant to the College of Maynooth ought to be largely increased, and that the Univer sity ought to be very much extended ; to which University, he thought Catholics ought to be admitted, or that a Roman o f a t n he ca C t h b u ot r i c a Church of Member,lr Ireland. Ca tholic university should b e established. There was one ques tion that he had not y e t touched upon, and that was the ques tion fering in such a questi on . He would appeal to the Right Hon. Baronet who h a d i ntroduced the Catholic oath, as to what manner he intended t h at oath should be observe d. Did he intend that that oath s h ould allow the Roman C at h o li c It might be said that he as a Roman o m would violate his oath by inter - Members to support the Noble Lord who hid commenced the debate, or did he intend that by that oath the Catholic Mem bers were precluded from interfering in ecclesiastical questions? He would not do anything to the Protests* Church that he would not do to the Catholic. H e would be f or i m p r oving the condition of both. Why should a Roman Catholic be re quired to give stronger testimony in favour of the Prot estant Church than Protestants thems e l ves — t han those who sat on the same side of the House with him ? Did the Constitution debar them from meddling with Church questions ? If so, then his constituents would say to him—" You shall not re p. esent us—you arc curbed and fettered—you would not half represent us. We will have a Protestant, not a Catholic." Why, if such a principle were acted upon, the Catholics of Ire landp at ed. would wr haveere seven reason millionsto soafy people t hey were , not keptnot hianlf constantenia.i- disaffection ? It was useless to think of effecting any tion by pensioning. The Catholic clergy of Ireland would not receive Government sueport.—( Hear, hear.) to be in time ago, when he ( Mr. Wyse) happened the part Dublin, there was a solemn enunciation, on . •eceive anything of the Chatholic hierarchy of Ireland, not to were concilia tion manifest. The Catholic clergy must have deep of pe.sions that have been cast upon them by a large number in the in the shape of salary sr endowment. The causes ly o t f ei t t h t i b s eas. the people of this country—they . had been slandered the grossest manner; and it was not only Irish feeling, but feeling of human uature, that they should be tilled with re sentment. The Catholic clergy were not hostile to British connection, and when Lord Normanby was Lord Lieutenant there, they showed the utmost disposition to assist the authori ties in restoring te course a of h and preservingi sspeech e ethatt ranquillit y. he sa w no a i o bl e Lordthe said in h Catholic clergy should not be selected from the humbler classes of the Irish people—neither did he (Mr. Wyse). On the contrary, he would prefer that they were selected from the humbler classes, for they would understand the condition of proverbial—the tog th e e tb a t- er the poor better, would sympathise in their distresses, and be more alive to their wants and wishes. The attachment of the s when Cath o li c cl_ta eetrbigi Catholic meyyme peasant nehtn aodfwere tbebe ee nre priestto: r h i ad i it to priest iofibr etis flock—they ded was almost t a b t n eh a e os l ytdbaeapysdetse Indies for their profession—when a p : ee-lisrm had been offered for their heads, and a still larger premium for their abnegation of the creed of their forefathers. He had no wish for the ascendancy of his creed—every good Catholic wetu'd dislike it—but they wanted impartiality in the administration of the laws, and equality of civil rights with their Protestant fellow -subjects. Was not the present condition of Ireland a disgrace to England? es w a h t i i l d st in all sea sons—there were rolling in the midst of luxury. She was like the Roma n slave, w And was it not at present a source of great uneasiness to the peop'e of this country ? It was a just principl e o f retr i bution, l a th fr a e t o n ed o b eo y u t n b t o r se y could inj riiens e injure another There w as I reland in the another without being u l t i mate l y so m midst s— of th e p r o e v s e b r e t y was, nd miserable discontent —at an r all ict t e im d , taifi continually reminding them of their mortality. England might boast of carrying her commerce and introducing civilization to the remotest parts of the globe—she might be the mistress of the ocean, and the most prosperous of nations. She would be the friend of the slave far away, and the enemy to oppression in foreign countries ; but as long as Ireland-continued as she was --as long as Eng land neglected to tranquillise that country by healing and conciliating measures—as tong as there was domestic discon tent—no prosperity, however great, could be of long standing. The cure was simple.—let them administer t o I re l an d those laws which they so much valued themselves, and have them administered in the same spirit with which they were ad ministered in this country—let them not coerce but conciliate, and let the Government a second time imitate 1829, by doing justice to Ireland.—( Cheers. ) Sir J. GRAHAM did not complain of the time consumed in the two speeches he had heard. The magnitude and the immense importance of the interest involved fully justified the length of those discussions. The House, lie was sure, would feel that the task which he undertook in following the Noble Lord, and the Right Hon. Gentleman was a very difficult one. He would not trespass on any more of their time than was absolutely necessary, but candidly state the case on the part of the Go vernment. Before proceeding now to notice the general topics of these speeches, he should notice a matter which was per sonal to himself. He could not help lamenting that upon this fatal Irish feeling he first parted from the Noble Lord—on the same feeling they bad afterwards met in hostile array, and in this feeling he feared that, after the expressions used by the Noble Lord, they would never again unite. What had fallen from the Noble Lord had sufficiently convinced him that their opinions regarding Ireland differed very widely. In one thing he cordially agreed with the Noble Lord, who said that no sovereign had ever been more intent upon ' was obtained ; :and although Mr. O'Connell's name was ap promoting the contentment of the people of Ire- ' peneed to the letter, he did not own himself to be the author. laud without distinction of party or creed. He had Mr. Barrett was convicted, and went to prison. An opinion the greatest satisfaction in stating that all the instructions might he entertained ole they he was h an d some l y treated on ' which he had recei ve d f rom her Majesty led him to entirely that oceasien.—(Hear, hear.) But no moral effect whatever concur with the Noble Lord, and to believe that the Noble was pro 'aced. Mr. O'Connell himself said that it was a mean Lord was perfectly accurate and correct. On another point and shabby proceeding thus to attack individuals, an d, upon also he agreed with th e N o bl e L or d ;h e passed a glowing pane- reticence-, he ( Sit J. Graham ) thought he was right in that gyrie on Mr. Fox, in which he entirely concurred. Mr. Fox observation.—(Laughter.) The object of the present Go said that military government and military executions were t vernment was to obtain the punishment of the "head and not suited to Ireland. What was the policy of the Govern- ! front "of the offenders, arid, by pursuing the course they did ment towards Ireland ? Wh at was t h e conduct of the Govern- to allow the whole s c hema to develope itself—they obtained a ment which he was called upon to d e f en d ? Was it in favour ! conviction by a jury fairly constituted, under the direction of an of a coercive Bill? Did he stand up to advocate trial by unania ous bench, in a trial at bar, and in the metro. court-martial? It was not military law nor 'military execu- ! polls of Ireland, and to which the eves net only of Ireland but tions he was called upon to defend. He stood up to advocate ;of Great Britain were directed. It had been ackno w led g ed the propriety of govern i ng I re l an d according to the ' that the Attorney-General c o n d uc t e d th e case w ith grea t t established laws of this country—the trial by jury; and it was , temper ; they had the asontion of Mr. Whiteside, who distin those laws which, h e was h appy to say, had triumphed in that I guished himself as one of the counsel for the traversers—that country, and which he stood up to vindicate. He desired to lon the whale the Att orney -G enera l con d ucte d the case w i t h imitate as much a s p oss ibl e t h e temper of the Hon. Member ,• great fairness. They were urgent in pressing the case until for Waterford, which was quite unobjectionable—( Hear, bear) I the traversers pleaded. They made various motions for the —anti well worthy of imitation. The House would remember I pnrpos t o f d e l ay , w hi c h were res i sted b y the Crown, but that the Noble L or d h a d sa id t h at her Alejesty's Gove rnmen t a ft er t h ey h a d once pleaded, a reasonable time had been were the real criminals, and as they stood there charged in allowed the traversers. —( Hear, hear.) They had waited for this manner, he trusted the House would give them a patient the revision of the jury list, with regard to which such hearing. The Noble Lord had, unintentionally no doubt, compliments had been paid to his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Shaw) spoken of the past policy which had been p ursue d t owar d s f or t h e i mpartiality which he displayed. Had they proceeded Ire dud, and of that which he supposed they would adopt in an opposite direction, and proceeded against the traversers fur the future, in a manner whi c h did not make for a tte ir d ing ill ega l meet i ngs, it was clear from the ver the distinction b nween the two sufficiently obvious. die' of the jury that they would not have obtained a He would divide the subject into two leading bran c h es , an d conv i c ti on . H e wou l d not say that those meetings were he would speak of the conduct which had been pursued gal. Ti.ey were held for a pat ticular purpose— he was about recently by the Government, and speak of the more general to say for the purpose of intimidating the Govern policy hereafter. He would gladly go back to the period to merit, and to force Parliament into a breach of national which the Noble Lord had referred, but his duty at present was faith.--( Cheers.) But the jury thought that though those to defend the conduct which had been pursued by the Go meeting= were not illegal in themselves, they became so from vernment. He was surprised at the manner ie which the combinatien. The Noble Lord had spoken of the law of con- Noble Lord had spoken of the Government of Ireland by Lord spiracy, which he compared to constructive treason. He said Wellesley and Lord Anglesea.—( Hear, hear.) Surely, the it was a novel law. He (Sir J. Graham) denied that there Noble Lord remembered that he himself was a Member of the was ally novelty in the law of conspiracy ; but if there were any Government at that time—(Cheers)—that he had adopted novelty in it, he contended that they had to deal with a new their policy and shared in their responsibility.—( Cheers.) The state of facts, which made it justifiable for them to have re- Noble Lord had complained that the union had yielded no course to it. One of the most sagacious of living men fixed fruits. At the time that he had been the colleague of the his attention on a terse saying of a celebrated female Noble Lord in office, great and important measures had been writer—The Duke of Wellington called his attention to a pas carried, and which he believed had been productive of great sage in a work of Madame den Stael :—" On ne conspire pas sur advantages to Ireland. When Lord Grey came into power, la place." In these times Leaguers meet in theatres—(Loud emancipation had been carried. He would observe in passing cheers)—Chartists meet in market places, and conspirators that from the time that he (Sir J. Graham) had left Lord Imeet in coneniation halls to disseminate sedition amongst the Grey's Government, the interval was very short before the re- multitude.—( Loud cheers.) He denied that this was a new spected head of the Government left it also, and however law, but even if it were, the circumstances of the case glowing was the eulo g ium which the Noble Lord h a d passe d rendered it necessary. Agai n , it h a d b een sa id t h at i n the on Mr. Fox, Lord Grey was as worthy of it, and issue of ths proclamation, prohibiting the meeting at Clontarf, he thought that the Noble Lord would agree with great ca elessness and want of prudence marked their course. him in opinion upon that point.--( Loud cheers.) The N‘stile Lord passed a high eulogy upon the exertions of Was it contended that Lord Grey had passed no measures of a Mr. O'Connell to stop the meeting, and he reminded the liberal nature for Ireland? He was satisfied that Lord Grey House of the opposition he gave to Chartism and trades would not have held office for five years within four months unient. Ile agreed with the N o bl e L or d i n t h e without giving effect to that lib era l po li cy with regard t o I re - me r it d ue t o M r . O ' Connell for th e s t eps w hi c h h e too k to land, for th e sa k e o f w hi c h h e h a d sacrificed office for so many stop the meeting at Clontarf. He did not wish to aggravate years.—( Cheers.) He would state the measures which they the case against him, but all those points had been urged in had pasted. They had enlarged the franchise. They had es- his defense, and they were proved by. the Crown to be part tablished a system of national education. They had passed the of the means by which the conspiracy had beer, proved. The Church Temporalities Act—an Act which he believed con- Noble Lent in more than one passage of his speech spoke with diced to the stability of the Established Church, by enlarging Christitn forgiveness, and in hi g h pra i se o f M r. O' Connell ; the basis, while it took away from th e capital.—(Cheers and he spike of Lord Lyndhurst in terms of a very opposite The Noble Lcrd admitted that the policy of Lord Grey's Go- descrip.ion. "I am the colleague of Lord Lyndhurst—( Loud vernment had been conceived in a spirit of kindness towards ironical cheering from the Opposition benches.) I am his the Catholics, and that there had been a wish on their part to colleague.—( Continued cheering._ from the same quarter,) I admit Catholics to the benefit of a full participati on o f a ll a d- am Hs friend (said the Ri g ht Hon. Gentleman, with vehe vantages.—(Cheers. ) The Noble Lord had said that when memo) —aril I am surprised that the Noble Lord the late Government had left office, they had left the country should have thought it becoming his station to speak of the in a state of tranquillity, and that the repeal agitation was Lord Ciranceller of England in the terms which he did— quite insignificant. Now he had extracted from the Pilot (Loud cheer.) You may talk of your high birth and of aris newspaper a list of the repeal meetings held during 1840. tocrane feelings. " The Lord Chancellor of England was a man On July 26, 1840, a repeal meeting had been held at Castlebar, who freer his first entrance into public life had risen by the which had been attended by eighteen Roman Catholic clergy- exhiln- i nof pre-eminent talents to the first place at the bar. men, and several gentlemen. On the 26th of August there —(Lead cheers.) In politics, it was true, he had created had been a repeal breakfast at Mallow, which had been attended some r neraies, though not very many, in this country, where by 200 persons, and in the same month there had been a public he was 1 , 05 t known—(Cheers) —but no man had adorned the repeal meeting, attended by 10,000 persons. On the 20th judgineet-seat with brighter faculties ; he possessed the there was a meeting at Skibbereen, attended by several thou- hi e liesi orner of talents ; his integrity was incorruptible ; his sand persons ; and during that year there were meetings at intellect was first-rate, and he thought it hard that a man who Kilkenny, attended by 200,000; at Drogheda, by 60,000; at had risen to pre-eminence by means so honourable, should Waterford, by 20,000; at Dublin, by 6,000 ; and at Maynooth, be attained for party purposes in terms so severe as those used by 10,000 persons. In 1841 there had been meetings at Bel- by tie' Noble Lord. He was sure that Lord Lyndhurst would fast, in the Curragh of Kildare, attended by 80,000 people; nut have spoken of any political opponent in such terms in his and on the pith of August, 1841, just before Ministers went absence.—( Loud cheers.) But was this all that was unge out of office, there was a repeal meeting at Drogheda, attended nertnis ? 'the Noble Lord relied on the use of some particular by 25,000 people, which was the state of affairs antecedent to expressions attributed to Lord Lyndhurst; and he was be. the present Government coming into power. Considering the trdycd into saving that it was not for his talents. that it was present position of Mr. O'Connell, he would not allude to the not tor his faculties, that it was not for his judicial knowledge, speeches which had been made by the lion. and Learned that it was not for his virtue, that it was nut for his integrity— Gentleman on those occasions; but he would state generally he was raised to the woolsack, but that his Right Hon. Friend that he had expressed himself with the same zeal and energy recommended him to it on account of his hostility to Ireland. which had characterised his former speeches. The. Noble Lord —( Cheers. ) He was sure that upon more calm reflection the had alluded to the jury law, and, as it appeared to him, had Noble Lord would not have used those expressions. Certain confounded the last regulating common juries, with that by expressioes had been attributed to Lord Lyndhurst in the which special juries were regulated. With regard to common /aw. cf Lo &, which, within five or six days after they had juries the Noble Lord had eulogised the rule which had been been used, he positively denied—(No, no, and Hear, hear) — established by Mr. Justice Perrin. n the sense in which the were taken. Lord An lion. dlxMaxa—By Sir M. O'Loghlin. Lyndhurst used those expressions in the presence of Sir J. GRAN AM thought it was by Mr. Justice Perrin ; the First Lord of the Treasury (Lord Melbourne), but it mattered not which of them had established the rule, for and in the presence of the President of the Council (Lord the Crown ordering common jurors to stand bye, that rule re- Lansdowne), and they never commented upon those expressions, mained in operation, and had never been varied from in th e which it would have been their duty to do if they bad under slightest degree. To say that the Crown should not, on any stood them in the sense attributed to them. He would now occasion, order a juror to stand bye, would be an absolute pass from this subject by assuring the Noble Lord that he heard denial of justice. The calm and temperate manner in which him speak of Lord Lyndhurst in the terms which he did, with the Attorney-General for England conducted Crown pro•eeu- the greatest pain. He would now return to the meeting at Lions had met with general approval, and yet, at the recent Clot.tarf, from which he had digressed, and he begged of the trials at Cardiff, a panel of seventy-five jurors had been ex !tense to attend to the dates which were material to a right un hate -led by the challenges of the prisoners, and of the Crown, der Landing of the case. The requisition for convening the those of the prisoners being limited by_ low to twenty. The meeting was signed on the 27th of September, and on Satur power should be exercised with justice and discretion, brat it day the 29th a proclamation was issued of a very was necessary that it should be possessed by the Crown. Th e peculiar character. The Lord-Lieutenant was then Noble Lord seemed to labour under some misappreherisian with in England for the benefit of his health, and his regard to the difference between ordering a common juror to attention was directed to the proclamation. Mr. stand bye and striking a special jury; he was not aware that the O'Connell had often before alluded to the display of inrantry rule regulating the ordering a common juror to stand bye, had attending the repeal meetings, he said that they were superior been introduced by Sir M. O'Loghlin, but the striking to those which the Duke of Wellington commanded at the a special jury was regulated by Act of Parliament— battle of Waterloo, and better than those whom Napoleon led that Act having been brought into this House by Sir to Moscow. But in the requisition for the Clontarf meeting, M. O'Loghlin, at the time that the Noble Lord was in allusion had been made for the first time to repeal cavalry. office. The special jury list contained the names of 716 special He would net read the proclamation.—( Cries of jurors. He would, in passing, observe on the fact of certain "Do ; do." The R ght Honourable Gentleman names having been omitted from that list. The Noble Lord then read the proclamation convening the meeting. ) had stated that sixty names had been omitted, and he relied on He would now call the attention of the House to the state of making that statement upon a stateme n t w hi c h h a d b een ma d e Ireland at that time. Immense multit u d es h a d assem bl e d ; in the Queen's Bench. Ile (Sir James Graham) believed those violent assemblages had increased. There were the meet thatings at Mullaghmast, there were other impo r t a nt mee ti ngs a t that statement was a gross exaggerati on . N o t a b ove one half that number of names had been omitted, and no one the Conciliation Fall. Then at last came the proclam a tion could contend that the Government was at all re s p ons ibl e f or with respect to the IT eeting at Clontarff.—( Hear, hear.) It had been n asserted that this was to be the last meeting. Why, the omission. His Right Hon. Friend, the R ecor d er f or Dublin, who was present, would, doubtless, i n th e course o f what was the fact? Why, they had the words of Mr. O'Con thene:l himself, dated at. Mullaghmast, in which he stated that debate, give some explanation on toe, subje c t. H e d eep l y r gretted the omission, avid he agreed with th e N o bl e L ord five or six meetings were yet to come, and that the do in expressing his sorrow at finding th a t th at c i rcumstance nothing policy of the Government would not heal the should have created a prejudi e, and have giv en even an ap- sores of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) At this time the proclama- , pearance of unfairness to the administration of justice.— mation issued. Upon that event taking place, he (Sir James ( Hear, hear.) But as the number of names om itt e d did not Graham) summoned the Lord Chancellor of Ireland and the a mount to thirty, and that the n ames o f P ro t es t ants as we ll as Lord Lieutenant and the different members of the Privy Council. This was on the 9th of October. They d e lib era t e d o f Catholics were amo n g th ose om itt e d, it was hardly possible ort the proclamation, they reconsidered it, and th e y th oug ht i t to imagine that as forty-eight names were chosen by b a ll o t out of the list of 716, that the om i ss i on o f th ose names wou ld h ave was necessary the military proclamatio n s h ou ld b e w i t hd rawn. n--( Hear, hear.) At least that the word 'c group" should be affected the composition of th e j ur y i n an y ma t er i a l d egree . According to the A ct o f P ar li ament , t h e part i es were to substituted for " troop." strike off the names alternately, and if there was anything re- Mr. WALLACE—WiII the lion. Baronet state to the House markable in the C rown str iki ng o ff t h e names o f R oman the new proclamation ? Catholics, it should be recollected that the traversers had not Sir J. GRAHAM—Certainly. The Right Hon. Baronet struck off the names of any Roman Catholics. The case, as then read the substitution for the proclamation, several parts of originally represented to the public, had been that ten Roman which created considerable laughter in the House. The Go- Catholics had been struck off by the Crown, not be- vernment then deliberated whether the altered proclamation cause they were repealers, but because they were Roman had materially changed the facts. It was thought it had not, Catholics. He was sorry to see that that respectable and it was then considered necessary that the Lord Lieutenant body, the English Catholics, had resented this striking and the Lord Chancellor, who were at that time in London, off the jury as an insult offered to themselves, and should proceed immediately to Dublin, having authoriiy, imme loot thus given to what was really merely a matter of political diately after their arrival, to do whatever they might think ne difference a character of religious strife. —( Hear, hear.) He cessary. The Lord Chancellor and the Lord Lieutenant ar regretted this exceedingly, for he entertained the greatest per- rived in Dublin on the F r id a y, an d a ft er we i g hi ng t h e w h o l e sonal respect f or many of the gentlemen who had attended the proclamation—a proclamation that had beer, posted round meeting which had been called to express the feelings of the Dublin for 30 miles—a proclamation which was known at four English Catholics on that occasion. —(Cheers.) It had been o'clock on Saturday afternoon, they thought it their duty to stated that these persons had not been members of the Repeal adopt the course they had done. He was happy, Association, and the traversers, who of course had access to to say—and he did so with the greatest pleasure — the hooks, had been challenged to verify their statement by that Mr. O'Connell had used his utmost exertions, affidavit. - This challenge had been accepted, but the affidavit and those exertions had been eminently successful in prevent had not been filed until towards the close of the proceedings. ing the loss of life.—(Great cheering.) The Government That affidavit was most important—it disposed of eight out was convinced that the simpl es t mo d e o f arriving at the truth the ten cases. ( H ear , h ear, and cheers.) Now he was the course they had adopted.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord could not understand how the striking off the names of the Member for London had asked what had been the result those persons could be considered as an impeachment of their of the proceeding of the Government? He would tell that fidelity to the sanctity of an oath. If, in a fox-hunting county Noble Lord, that advantages of the utmost importance and he should bring an action of trespass against the master of the benefits of the greatest extent had already taken place. There hounds, of course, his solicitor would take care to exclude all had been peace in Ireland for the last three months.—( Hear.) the members of the hunt frost, the jury.—( Cheers. ) If he There had been an increase of employment; besides that, it brought an action for tithes, of course, he should have little had been proved, that without the extreme stretch of the law, chance of success if his solicitor did not strike off all lay impro- they had overcome a must dangerous principle.—(Hear.) priators from the list of the jury.—(Cheers.) They did riot The Noble Lord had said that the Government had occupied question their honour, they only questioned the st rong precon- Ireland by military f o r ce .—( H ear, h ear. ) M ost certa i n l y di d eeived opinio ns an d feelings.—( Hear, hoar .) H e should cer- he say that they had done so, when it was attempted to tainly be astonish e d if any one would have the boldness to stand wrest I reland from her Majesty by force.—( Hear, up in that H ouse an d contend that those Roman Catholics who hear.) Iles Majesty's Government hadbeen convinced were members of the Association ought to have be e n re t a i ne d that there was a design to tamper with the military—( Hea r ) on the jury.--( Chee rs .) H e would now consider the cases of and could that Noble Lord say, under such circumstances, that those two who were hot, according to the statements of the affi- the Government was not bound to take the precaution they davit, members of the Association, although they were Roman had done ? ( Hear, hear.) What had been the conduct of the Catholics. These persons were nlr. Michael Dunn and Mr. Government upon the subject? Why, until the month of Hendric. Now, with regard to Michael Dunn, it appeared March , so far from adding to the army in Ireland they were that he resid e d i n St. P atr i c k' s ward, Dublin. Now, there reducing it. —( Hear, hear.) He had a return, which had been were four person s o f th a t name , t h ree o f w h om h ad s i gned the moved for in the oth er H ouse o f P ar li ament , an d t h at s h owe d requisition for calling th e r e p ea l meet i ng at T ara, and, the rank and file in I re l an d f rom 1830 to 1844 . — ( H ear, as the officers of the Government believed, this very Michael hear.) Now, on the let of January, 1844, there was rank Dunn, the brazier, was one of those who had signed and file in Ireland amounting to 21,257.—( Hear. ) In a requisition for calling a repeal me e ti ng i n S t. P atr i c k' s 1833, arid 1834, what was the state o f th e ran k an d fil e ? ward. Dunn himself, in his affidavit, negatived the fact that be Why, in 1833, it was 23,928—(Hear)—in 1834 it was was a member of the Repeal Associatio n , b u t h e did not nega- 23,844, and between the Ist of S e pt em b er , 1841, an d t h e 10 t h five the fact that he had signed a requ i s iti on f or ca lli ng a re- of March 18-13 during whi c h th e cc mons t er " meet i ngs b egan, peal meeting. Now, wish rega r d t o th e compos i t i on o f t h e the force in Ireland was red uc ed by th e w ithd rawa l o f two regi ments of cavalry and twelve batt a li ons o f i n f an t ry, l eav i ng f our jury, he would observ e that th e G overnment m i g h t, h a d t h ey chosen, have tried the t r av ersers b e f ore a common j ury, and i n battalions of infantry an d one reg i ment o f cava l ry. that case the traver sers wou ld no t h ave b et n ent i t l ed to chal- Mr. W ALL ACE wi s h e d t o k now w h at t h e num b ers were lenge a single man, whil s t th e C rown m i g h t h ave ex- in 1841-11+43. prcised its prerogative o f or d er i ng j urors to stand as i de. Sir J. GRAHAM said that in 1841 the n um b ers were They did not l i ke t o aft i n suc h a way , b ecause t h ey t h ought i t 14,687 ; and in 1843, 14,400.—(Hear, hear.) H e (Si r J. would be unfair t o w ar d s th e t raversers; an d t h ey t h oug h t i t Graham) must admit, with the Noble Lord the M em b er f or right that they should be t r ied by a s p ec i a l the City of London, that it was an unwise policy to hold ilre place both parties in the same position.—(Dear, which would land to this country by military force. Such a cou rse cou ld ear, hear.) There were forty-eight p e r so ns dra w n f rom th e genera l pane l, w hi c h never be looked upon as sound policy. He would n ow g l ance at the measures taken by the Government, and th ose w hi c h t h ey were reduced to twenty-four, from whi c h t we l ve were se l ec t e d. It was not only in their power to strike off some of the names, were re now p had pared to take. The Noble Lord an d t h e Ri g h t Hon. gone upon most erroneous prem i ses, and they but it was imperative on them, and it was obvious to common Gentleman l were unable to discover any thing very new w ith respect to Ire sense that those whom it was likely must have been prejudiced and. As to the tenure of la n d, th e C omm i ss i on issued by the as being member s of the Repeal Association, were the perso n s who ought to have been struck off.—( Hear, hear.) But he Government had tou c h e d upon every point to which the Noble Lord and the H on . M em b er for Waterford had ad would go further, and say that the instrrions of the Govern verted.— ( Hear, hear.) He was supporte d b y a ll aut h or i ty that ment were not that Roman Catholics should be struck off qua the law of ejeetm en t was beneficial to Ireland—that the law Roman Catholics, but only to strike them off under such cir curestances as would induce them to strike off any other per. of plantations wa s eque ll y so, and that the law of subletting sons.—( Hear, hear.) He was sure that his Noble Friend had proved highly beneficial. These subjects, however, it was c would confirm his statement, and he was satisfied that these contended on the p ar t o f t h e G overnment should undergo re instructions had been fulfilled to the best of his Noble Friend's vision, and . if any alteration was n ecessary th ey s h ou ld b o judgment. Thus, nine out of the ten of the cases were made. With respect to the law of l an dl or d an d t enant t h e N o bl e disposed of.—( Hear. hear.) The tenth person was Mr. lien- Lord had proposed to increase the stipendiary magistrates. dric, and he could assure the House that he was The Hon. Me m b er f or W ater f or d sa id t h at h er M a j esty ' s Go believed to be a Protestant when he was struck off. H e was vernment had reduced the numb er o f s ti pen di ary magis tr a tes. beggedhe the House to attend to the facts he was about ! struck off for reasons quite independent of his religious opinions. Now, It would nut become him to state what these reasons were, an d to read. The nu m b er e t stipendiary magistrates in 1838, if he were asked to state them he would not do s o , because he 1839, 1841, and 1841, unde r th e a d min i s t ra tion of the Noble 1 would conside . ritto b e a direliction of- hi s duty. He had now Lord oppo s ite, am oun t e d t o 59. I n th e es timates f o r 1841, dealt with tine question—(Hear, hear )—and he could assure the Government took a vote for 59 stipendiary magistrates in the House, and could conscientously state th a t not hi ng was so Ireland. Phis was at a very curious period, namely, on th e opposed to the wishes and feelings o f h er M a j esty ' s G overn- 2eth of July, 1841.—( Hear, hear.) It was then that th e ment as the exclusion of Catholi cs on account of the i r rel i g i on. Noble Lord and his colleagues bethought them s el ves th a t t h e On the contrary, positive instructi ons h a d b een g i ven to avo id time had arrived when it was expedient to add t o th e num b er such an exclusion, and notwith s t an di ng t h e preju di ces w hi c h of stipendiary magistrates, having had for fou r y ears on l y 59 . On the 15th of June the addition comm ence d, f or on t h at day had been raised on this subject no p re j u di ces cou ld b e more were added. Oa the 28th of July t wo more were a dd e d ,and had said respecting thei r no t i n t er f er i ng b e f ore, unfounded. —( Hear. ) Wi t h regar d to w h at the Noble Lohred t o w n e the title of August one mor e was a dd e d , an d on the very day . that Lord Melbourne resigned t h e sea l s o f o ffi ce i nto h er could assure the House that th roug h ou t t h e l ast sess i on o f Par- Majesty 's hands, another additi on was ma d e to t h e num b er. I n liament her Majesty's Go vernmen t was unw illi ng to i nter f ere the course of two months seven new mag i strates were appo i nted. with the right of petition. They regar d e d t h e meet i ngs i n Ireland with the greatest anx i e ty. H e wou ld not say t h at t h ey Now, the case would not be perfect if he did not contra s t it w ith vv ere unlawful or lawful, but th e y we n t t o th e very verge o f the the conduct of her M r j es t y ' s present Government. They did law. Violent language had been used a t th em . Th ere was not consider it neces s a r y t o ma i nta i n t h e appo i ntments o f t h ose which seven magistrates, but as soon as vacancies occurred, four of marching in order and military music—( Hear, hear) — these gentlemen were appointed to the situations, a n n t d . these act believed were outside the law. The reason why they did not gentlemen were firm supporters of the late Government. act before was, that if they instituted a prosecution for individual acts in some obscure corner of Ireland, of . national education . He (Sir James Graham) had to Hon. Member for Waterford had laid some stress en t he ques no moral impression would be , produced by a conviction,— t s i t o , n te totlit,honsetit it was the intention of her Majesty's ( Hear, hear.) They had an instance of this before. Lord Government, in the estimates of the present year, to propose Grey's Government instituted a prosecution against Sir. Bar- a con adorable increase to the grant for national education. It rett, for a iter which appeared in his paper. A conviction was also intended by her Majesty's Government to place the Roman Catholics of Ireland on the same footing with respect to charitable bequests as the Roman Catholics and Protestant D.ssenters of England. He wished before he sat down, to allude to the question of the franchise in Ireland. It was the intention of her Majesty's Government to introduce a new Registration Act for Ireland, and to propose an extension of the county franchise. It was the intention of the Government to deal in some mea sure with the franchise of cities and towns. By the present law any person was deprived of his franchise if he omitted to pay any one of the little local taxes for which he was liable. In Dublin there were no less than twenty such local taxes, and if a person were to omit the payment of one of them, he would be liable to lose his franchise. This was vexatious, and after all was an insufficient, security. It was no test of solvency. But since the passing of that Act, the Poor-law Act had been passed, and po,e , rates established. It was proposed by the Government, that for the maintenance of the franchise it should be necessary to pay the borough rates, the jury c e s s , and the poor-rates only. The N o bl e Lord had stated that his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) had described the Bill of Lord Morpeth as one that hut been introduced under false colours. It was true that his Noble Friend had made use of such an expression, but he did so in reference to the terms of the Bill, as it was stated that it was a Bill to define the franchise ; whereas it was not only a Bill to define the franchise, but also materially to alter it. It was on this ground that his Noble Friend had said the Bill inld been intro duced under false colours. The Noble Lord opposite had alluded to the judicial appointments under her Majesty's present Government, and had stated that it was impossible to make proper appointments from the Conservative members of the bar in Ire land. Now, what was the fact ? Who were the counsel engaged by the traversers in the late trials?—( Hear, hear.) He thought there were seven or eight counsel employed, and, with the exception of Mr. Pigot, Mr. Shell, and Mr. Monahan, were Conservatives. Mr. Moore was a Protestant, and was the Solicitor-General of the late Goverment. He ( Sir James Graham) now approached a most important subject. His Right Hon. Friend, the First Lord of the Treasury, had been asked to put a construction upon the oath taken by the Catholic Members. He hoped his Right Hon. Friend would not an swer that question. It was not an oath imposed by him, but an oath imposed by the Legislature. He (Sir J. Graham) did not think there was any advantage to be derived in a discus sion as to the construction of an oath. When the Legisla ture gaVe the Roman Catholics a full participation in the rights conferred by the Constitution it gave it in consideration only of their taking that oath ; and hating done so full confidence was placed in them by the Legislature. He would, for a moment, turn to the observations of the Noble Lord with respect to the Established Church. As he under stood the meaning of the Noble Lord, it was that an equality with respect to religion should be observed in Ireland. In passing, he could not abstaie from saying that the plain object of this motion, was to take the reins of power out of the hands of her Majesty's present Government. He imagined, under these circumstances, that the Noble Lord might have stated some distinct policy on a matter of such importance.—(Cheers and ironical cheers.) Was the Noble Lard prepared to propose a system of perfect equality? How were they to make'that equa lity? Were they prepared to endow on the Roman Catholics in the same manner as members of the Established Church ? He thought that the Presbyterians and the Protestant Dissenters of this country would not very well like to be taxed for such a purpose. The Noble Lord had himself deprecated the voluntary principle. The division of the revenues of the Church be tween Catholics and Protestants would be the source of endless strife and implacable animosity.—(Hear, hear.) He was sorry to have occupied the attention of the House for so long a time. With respect to the Protestant Church in Ireland, he did not approve of arty of the nostrums which had been offered on the other side of the House for its maintenance. The measures which had; been suggested were inconsistent with the principles which regulated the Protestant State of Eug. land, and which was decithdly favourable to a Protestant Church.--( Hear, hear.) That Church had been established by the Reformation—had been confirmed by the Revolution— and had been guaranteed by the Act of Settlement. The Act of Union had strengthened the establishment of that Church, and it should not be overthrown by a Repeal Association, or by a body of conspira'ors, such as had recently been convicted in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, from Colonel Sibthorp.) He had now gone through all those topics of the speeches of the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman, and though he had touched upon them but imperfectly, yet, still he had stated his opinions candidly and fairly, and no man could say that he had not spoken frankly.—( Hear, hear.) He could not say that the Noble Lord, in seeking to displace the present Government; had been equally candid and explicit.—( Hear, hear.) If the House thought her Majesty's Government had acted unwisely in strengthening the hands of the executive in maintaining the laws-zwhy let them so declare by their votes that they were in favour of the policy of the Noble Lord ; but if they approved of the manner in which the Government had discharged their duty to their Sovereign and the country— why then let the House by a decisive vote negative the motion of the Noble Lord.—( Cheers. ); An Hoe. MEMBER then moved the adjournment of the debate, which was agreed to. The Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock. In consequence of some of the railway companies having made arrangements with certain hackney-coach pro prietors to allow " privileged cabs to enter their terminuses to take up fares, &c.," meetings have been held by the hackney coach proprietors for the purpose of petitioning Parliament to prevent the monopoly complained of. Interviews have been had with Mr. Manners Sutton, who suggested that the right of the railways to do so should be legally tried under the Atts of Parliament, and a mandamus was applied for against Mr. Rawlinson, the magistrate, for not granting a summons. The railways claim the " privilege" on the ground of " private property." The meeting decided that all licensed hackney coach proprietors have a right to take up fares at railways. Mr. Broadwood has paired off with Mr. Duff until the 27th inst. LIBERATION OP MR. OASTLER.—On Monday the arrangements for the liberation of Mr. Oastler were completed by the London Committee with the attorneys of Mr. Thorn hill, at the Common Pleas-office, in Sergeant's Inn, Chancery lane. Early in the morning the Committee paid the amount of debt, 2,866/. 17s. Bd., with interest at the rate of 4 per cent. from the 12th of November, 1840, amounting to 3641. 18s. - 2d., into the office; and then received a Judge's order for the libe ration of Mr. ()ostler. THE NEW ROYAL EXCHANGE.—OH Monday . , pre paratory to the demolition of the houses funning Bank-build ings, adjoining the New Royal Exchange, a very extensive hoarding was being erected, and several of the inmates were removing their furniture, the sale by auction of a portion of them having been announced for Monday next. That part disposed of will be then cleared away, and within a fortnight the remaining portion will be also sold, and in a few"days after wards the whole will be removed. Subsequently it is in tended, as quickly as possible, to erect on a part of the site the statue of the Duke of Wellington. INTERESTING SALE AT WOOLWICH DOCKYARD, FEB. 12.—A sale of stores commenced this day at the Wool wich Dockyard, and will be continued to-morrow, until the whole of the articles enumerated in the catalogue have been put up to the best bidder. Considerable interest has been excited to witness the lots, as amongst them are a great variety of richly embroidered dresses, made expressly for the purpose of being presented to the chiefs and natives of Africa by the commanders of the vessels fitted out for the Niger expedition, but brought back to this country in con sequence of the views of that enterprising expedition not being carried into effect. The embroidered drosses consist of splendid silk velvet robes of rich crimson, purple, and other showy colours, bordered with gold lace. There are others of cotton velvet and bright scarlet cloth embroidered with gold and silver lace, and kersymere waistcoats with fillagree buttons, and gold and silver lace ornaments, apparently similar to those worn by footmen in this country. For the chiefs there were several pair of red leather boots, and red and yellow leather slippers, peculiar on account of their great length in the soles, being upwards of twelve inches in length each. There are equally smart-looking saddles and bridles for their horses, with holsters, pistols, and trappings complete, and several excellent fowling-pieces for the field sports of Africa; and, to crown all, a number of bright-red cloth caps richly embroidered. The African ladies were not forgotten, at there are amongst the lots exposed for sale nu merous pieces of printed muslin dresses, and several hun dred pieces of printed cotton dresses, silk, persian, and watered silk and cotton for window-curtains and chair covers, and moreen and druggett for other purposes; and in addition to dresses for their children, their are small casks of glass beads, and many other minor articles suited to the tastes of uncivilized life in Africa, but now, in all probability-, will only be used by parties who are desirous of assuming the characters of their uncivilized brethren at some future masquerade. DESTRUCTION OF HILLINGDON don House, the seat of Mr. R. H. Cox, was on Sunday de stroyed by fire ; nothing but the b are wa ll s are s t an di ng, and - they are in so dangerous a state that they must he levelled. The family were preparing for church when the alarm was given, and speedy information was forwarded to Uxbridge, about a mile distant. The county engine, and another furnished by the engine factory in Long-acre, while a new one was building, was early on the spot, but from a difficulty in obtaining water they were for some time useless. The Hayes engine soon after arrived, but the three were barely sufficient to furnish the hose of one, from the distance the water had to -be conveyed. It was soon found that nothing could save the house, and the efforts of those present were concentrated upon the destruction of all connexion with the valuable offices. This, fortunately, was effected. In the meantime great part of the valuable pictures, glass, and plate, with the most rare and unique part of the " plenishing," was placed out of danger. On the east of Hillingdon Park is the seat of Mr. C. Mills, Mr. Cox's son in-law ; while on the north of his park is the residence of another son-in-law, Mr. A. Granville, private Secretary of the Duke of Wellington. The Earl of March and his Countess were joining the last county meeting of the season. The fire was purely accidental. FIRES AT BIBLE HEDINGHAm.—On Saturday evening, Feb. 3d, about 8 o'clock, the above village was alarmed by a cry of " Fire," flames appearing in a double cart and waggon shed at an off-hand farm called Peppers, in the occupation of Mr. Charles Hilton, in the above parish. There being plenty of assistance at hand, the raging element hap pily was confined to the destruction of the above building, but had the wind blown in a contrary difection, the house, barn, and other buildings, must have been also destroyed. This is the second fire that has taken place on the same farm in ten days ; for on Thursday, the 25th ult., about the same time in the evening, a fire was discovered in a shed adj o i n i ng Mr. Hilton's premises, but from timely assistance was pre vented from doing much damage. It is believed that both fires were wilfully occasioned.—lpswich Express POLICE CONSTABLES' FEES.—The Comniissionersof the Metropolitan Police force have caused a great reduction to be made in the allowances to police constables who are wit nesses attending the Central Criminal Court, which deter mination has brought it, like the City Police, down to one shilling per day, andone shilling and sixpence per night, if they come any distance. THE AUTHOR OF " TREMAINE."—PeThaps no other literary name of the day excites such interest in connection with the announcement of a new novel or romance, as that of the Author of " Tremaine ;" and from the time when that name first came before the literary world, up to the present moment, it has never before been connected with so piquant and attractive a title, especially for novel and romance readers, as that of the work it is now on the point of usher ing into the world—namely, " Chatsworth ; or the Romance of a Week." It is true, the responsibility of the Author o !' " Tremaine" on the present occasion is that of " Editor .. only; but the social as well as the literary position of !vir- Plumer . Ward, added to his accomplished and fastidious taste, and his elegant scholarship, offer a guarantee that t work is one of no ordinary pretensions. [AnvEnusEmENTi--REmARKAnr.s CURE O F A DREADFUL CASE OF cnoFt rehel'tir tior.r.oWAY'S PILLt , t AND OINTMENT.—Mr. Moor e, chemist, residing at Castle Donnington, Mates that he sold Holloway's residing Oint ment' to John Bircher, at King slllills, Derbyshire, for the use of his s on, aged 13 years, who had been afßi c t e d with scrofula for a p eriod of eightyears, and had been under the treatment of the celebrated Dr. Dorman, of Melbourne ; -Dr. Extale, of Swannington ; Dr. Barton, of Stanley; and Dr. Hearp, of Derby, but without obtaining the least relief. The boy, however, is now perfectly cured by these wonder ful' Medicines. Sold at Professor liollowayi Establishment,. 244, Strand (where advice may be had gratis) ; also by every respectable Chemist througliout the civilised world. In Pots and Boxes, ls. ltd., 2a. 9d., 4s. 6d., lie., 225., and 338. each.