The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-22 00:00:00

4 ~,j_j7iLLEI-M, ]Sf,N,T, ~T 9, THE SUN OF OBE DELIVERED GRATIS. THIS DAY• MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Taken- before the Select Committee appointed to consider of the means if maintaihno• and improving the FOREIGN TRADE of the country ; and to report their Opinion and Observations thereon to the Rouse. Dunce, 23 dic Februarii, 1821. The Right Hon. THOMAS WALLACH, Esquire, in the chair. Examination of Mr. Davi , ' 13e11 house continued. Will you mention the particular instances to which you refer ? The first, which ." " e veral years ag o , was a t M r . J ones ' s h ouse at B ruton Hall; it was in the ”„user -floor, what we call aground floor, and it was a sandy situation, and the ground th Ve rY nea r ly as hi g h as the floor, but not quite; it appeared that.air had been in into !Rat particular instance excluded, by making a potatoe cellar; there was no air got that place, in consequence of which the beam-end rotted, that was very good uantaic timber. Yno you k now h ow l ong that timber had been in ? I should think nearly forty ews. Was it the dry rot? I tkink not : we cut it off, and I believe it has not gone further. Tie question had a particular reference to dry rot? With respect to dry rot, it 18 !et! little known ; I think it appeared to me to be rot coming from damp and want of air, and by no means the disease called the dry rot ; though I have seen the dr y' rot, where it has taken one side of a house, and the other side has been coin- P ie „. s tely tee from it. 4 fat app earance, in your opinion, does the dry rot assume ? There is always n gUS grows upon i t used? v e i Y i o l a u :s: r t t‘ b • n r a e n instance of dry rot being found where no timber had been ninstance w here I found the dry rot in a wall which had been an outside wall e for thirty years, and when we broke into it, it had strings of t at i th at tis fun gus, lik e li ttle bits of leather, running all along in the joints: we (lid not know ni c it was the dry rot; we built La dieing-room to the end of the house ;in twe4 t Months, the ends of the timbers were decayed, and we found it was the dry rot, ; mod uas kept spreading ever since. Are hats:. sand of timber did you introduce ? Dantzic. eaurn l . Yon then o f opinion, that for the purposes of house-building, which you have the yellow pine of America is equally durable, and as eligible as that of th e tai altie With respect to being equally durable I have no means of .aacer it I'4l, except from not having been called in or seen any decayed; as to its eligibility, wousi4lrerY eligible for Sma ll buildings ; I think the prejudice in favour of Baltic beehai,:' a very long timein subsiding, supposing it was as good, because people who from eon used to the use of Baltic do not like to use American pine, in a great measure tb a r,:j u dke, hilt tint altogether so ; were I going to build a good house, 1 should As Am any but small scantlings of American to be used. ain ' t - a - a m ; er !Can pine has been more generally introduced, has that prejudice been Mn YOU I rather think it has. Y9ll inform the committee, what quantity of timber is annually used in ar Tn r necter, for the purpose of making packing-cheits and boxes? As far as I b e n - ,__'°rnl an opinion about it, I think about 500,000 feet at least, for packing -`is in Manchester, in a year. s t hat wholly of American pine, or part American and part Baltic ? There is j p er li ttle Baltic, if any ; there is a little white deal from the Baltic used sometimes; ut v p at has been when it has approached very near; it was very low once last year. L . . 111 'you state what is the present price of good American yellow pine, in the 1 7' • P°4ol market? The best yellow American pine is eighteen pence. ''''ate the current price of 'mid Dantzic or Memel timber? That is half a s : QW, n in Liverpool. g ab i`: the demand for the last considerable at that price? It has not been consider of lat e on account of there being very little building going on in L ancas hi re ; there , h . Mann l ave been no heavy bu i ld i ngs going on, generally sp ea ki ng ; th ere f ore t h e d e - s not sog ood as it used to be. Ire Whet reducti on, in the price of Baltic timber, would lead to a considerable in ase in th e consumption ? I cannot say, I am sure; where people want Baltic as 4 ' l *r, I thi n k they ape without reference exactly t o th e p r i ce , w h ere t h e differ ence comes within what it is now. ble lr a reduction of sixpence a foot was to take place, would that lead in yourjudg farm; to a material increase in the consumption ? For what Baltic tisnber is used r ( 1 0 not thi n k that would make much difference, except that it might be used tise ek i 2e . sor co mmon things ; whe re pe o pl e wou ld so use B a l t i c t i m b er, t h ey w i l l Is in publ ic job s , an d t hi ngs o f t h at sort. ,it in yOur recollection , at any former period, th a t th e difference in price be- Zethe two descriptions of timber wa s ma t er i a lly l ess th an it i s at present ? I n hltime of the war they we re b o th a vast d ea l hi g h er: A merican p i ne ! have known Fli as 4s. 6d. w h en t h e B a l t i c was ss. 6d. and 6s. ma a " - as the c onsum pti on o f A mer i can pine considerable at that period ? No, no like what is now. Tas that because the supply was small, or from the want of demand? From h a e jant of demand, in a great measure; and I conceive that the exportation trade that d er ery much improved in Manchester, within the last seven or eight years, e n i IS more than twice as much used in the packing-cases. Pin4a, (3 ',Linform .the committee, what proportion the consumption of American form .„„-- "" a ltle timber bear to each other in Manchester, at present? I can only tindreaa ; with.respect.to my o wn consumpti on , we use a b out 100,0 00 f eet o f depends--Year, and I s h ou ld thi n k 10 t o 15,000 a - year i s Baltic; b ut that alwaya thra, 6 Port .the public. jobs or heavy jobs we have ; sometimes we use t w i c e or the as much a s at o th er tim e s. Of l ate , h eavy j o b s h ave b een very scarce g at ' t aiati, e You made any experiments on the comparative strength of Baltic and si 5t, t ,7 4 Pine timber for or bearing? Yes, I have. 41 l a nat prop ort i on you find the one to bear to the other? There i s a vas t k , u ulerence in American pine itself, but I think the average is about five to lia / .°'"ething less ; from four to five, or five to six. a ,. 4 five of Baltic is equal to six of American ? Yes, or rather under that. s,ra-uetaltic timber more equal in strength than that of the American colonies? l at ell More. ! i albe i . °4ll the committee what thee ommen scantling, or size of the American 'welai':B..from the lowest to the highest ? The lowest is down to as low as c ' l l th a in a e bes, which is the Piston, and the St. John's runs up to two feet; but we uestsize from sixteen to twenty inches. y ouppto bad o c cas i on to fi n d t h at t h e l arge t i m b er h as i n some i nstances been as. 4 0,1 g to or s h ow i ng a system o f d ecay ? W e fi n d l oss i n a l l s i zes more or if ieswt.o always consider there is mo r e ri s k i n th e ti m b er o f l arge scaet li ng S , i tih. e small, but I thi n k th a t i s r a th er snore in this way, that a l arge l og , rotten bad, is a larger loss than a small one; Ido not l:now that there are more sb aken a t t 1 „ in the large than in the small, but the large logs are more apt to be Do von t ae heart than the small are. WitL" ever find the logs rotten in the centre ? Yes, we do. " u t - s u a t arty outward appearance? Sometimes without any outward appearance, b n a ° , 3 ",'tent we can generally see something in the end which indicates age. 'Peet : s t imply it to be timber of o'der growth ? We look to the size ; with re ha; 'ae growth, we apprehend that the largest is the oldest. I"l "keea Y " any means of ascertaining the difference? No; . we have a saw . mill, a tt ig ef"?' st eatn, and we find an amazing difference in the sawing of ; sometimes tv° 311ell`wentY incheinare wil stop the engine. when another time it would cut "cl I°`tls; merel y from the f t oughness and badness of it, its being very hard tt y of You tv u e o rough. a , wh at r see any spruce fir? .Yes, we get that sometimes. sacs y ou quality is that? The American spruce is very bad. Very cros s r4e4 a the Quebec? I mean the spruce from New Brunswick; it is 414 1 ,, and tier • intoboards,and put on the horse to dry, it goes cross s a ak it is sawn Ra e , es. = tru ce ru e , un iu obse rved the same result on spruce from Canada? I think there is no ba:k. e front Canada; except in deals :in deals it is very good, but I speak 1 ,, Ar e fhedeals th a s P r uee deal s w hi c h come f rom C ana d a o f as good a gualityas the yellow ' e t 'h ra t a' ‘Ve sho u ld not cons id er t h em so good as the yellow ; they always V a " er a less p r i ce. fitask s have mentioned that American pine is generally used in Manchester for thatbests and packine boxes for all packages ;is it not found to be rather soft, sh the nails do not hold? No, We think it holds nails as well as the other dea r ; but we do rot d the nails , we have hoops round, we use a great 01ron clien t , upon A, in hoops now, round the . ends e , You acquainted with the quality ? oit_hered pine of Quebec ? Yes. i f it : 4 t opinion do u entertain ofit be It is ve a riv good ; the red pine of Quebec, hot N f 'S as well manufactured, Y'() equal to the Baltic, but it is WO manufactured. would very nearly 'q do you mean by its not being well manufa ctured? It is not squared both l 'tl 4li ke like the Quebec; left round at ' the ' angles; it does not convert so \\„: k _ l 'e have a great deal more loss in sawing it up. ttithertmits advance in price above yellow . pine does it bear in the Liverpool market ? a great difference in the quality ; Quebec would be froth twenty-two to Are our pence. I v , You acquainted with the red pine of New Brunswick ? Yes, the Mirarnichi. be t 34 7,t opinion do you entertain of it? Ths 'Miran - field red pine is very good, 40 `,, , s atilt worse manufactured than the Canada, and a vast deal more variety in h at e e ,exceedingly sappy, and other very good. ar e t. John's? We consider that pretty nearly equal to Miramichi : butthere ' 4°4, other countries that are still worse. sis aat: _%e You been in the habit of using the yellow pine timber for floors in any ea t s ° n eithe r of houses or warehouses ? It has not been in good buildings re 'a tided for floors; w e have never used it for floors, except for inferior Iniildings. at.' warehouses? No, not in warehouses. title have stated, that the present price of good American pine, such as Mira van anfSt John's, and Quebec, ghteen pence a foot in the Liverpool market ; , en t e. i ope the committee what was the current price for such timber in andNc t December last? It was sixteen pence; rather under if any thing. that th e a circumstances do you impute this advance? It is pretty evident to rne, , the eiaadvance is in consequence of an expected duty, the speculators goin into ways t e h n et a and others holding there is an immense ' stock, and yet there h as g a1%,`7, % , `7 , hut little on sale ; there is a double stock, or was at Christmas. mae it4i l:( l a duty be laid equal to the adva nce, may that advance be expected . to be er e ' I-should think it would, uless parties that are holding quantities 11.1 tegaettle.:: t into the market, that would drop it. a ou ik)s ar , e the i d , u fall Ott the Consumer, would it not ? Yet. r oaa n .i n,t i u n u a ty t w s to , be laid as expected, would that advance in price, in b in amed.-1 think there is no doubt it would lower directly. Would it in such case, in your opinion, fall back to the foimer price?—Yes, probably they may be losing money by it; but I think the quantity in the market would bring it back to the former price. • Are you acquainted with the extent of the importation of-American pine timber to Liverpool in the last year ?—Yes. What might that extent be ?—I am not certain ; I think it was about three mil lion of feet. Are you acquainted with the extent of the present stock in Liverpool?—At Christmas it was, with what was expected to come in, about 2,500,000. In point of fact, has 500,000 come in since?—No ; but I should think at Christmas there was 2,000,000 in stock. In your opinion, what may be the extent of the present stock ?—I can hardly say; it has been reduced since more than the import, but not much. At what would you estimate it should think at present it must be from fifteen to eighteen hundred thousand, but I cannot speak to that positively. Do you know whether the quantity sold during the last year was equal to the quantity imported ?-1 think it was not; there is timber in Liverpool two or three years old now. lirould not' that timber have been kept at all events for seasoning ?—No ; it is worse every year by at least a penny a foot. Is that the ease, generally, in yellow pine timber from America ?—Yes, it is worse; if there are both old and new, the new will always be bought at nearly a penny a foot more than they will give for the old. By what period of the present year may a further supply of American timber be expected?—Early in July, we used to reckon the 10th ; but it was last year the first, and it is expected the first this year. Then, in your opinion, there is now seven months supply of timber in the Liver 'pool market ?—I Should think more. And a period of nearly five months must elapse before a supply can be received; therefore it is probable there will not be a surplus of above three months supply, when a fresh importation takes place ?—I should think about that, supposing the same demand to be continued. What is your idea, looking at the circumstances of the times, of the probable demand that may be expected for this timber ?—Except that I can see there is a great deal doing in our country, I should think things looked very bad, that th e demand would fall off; there has lately been considerale, demand, but it was con trary to my opinion. What do you mean by a great deal doing?—l mean that there is a vast deal of goods sending off, a great deal of shipping, and the trade of Manchester strikes me to be reviving ; but it is only from facts I see that I judge. Do you allude to building ?--No, - not building, but the trade of the town ; we have been making more cases; the town generally seems to be more-alive; but one part of the trade is exceedingly bad, that is the spinning part, the cotton part, and it appears to me very odd the thing should go on so well as it doeS. Is the building at all suspended, or the use of timber for the building of houses? —There are immense quantities of cottages building, but no general good houses building. In this cottage-building. the American timber is principally used ?—lt is. Are you of opinion, that as far as relates to present stock in hand, the holders of that stock would not lose by the imposition of the expected duty ?-1 fancy, the holders of the stock have no idea that their present stock is to have the duty im posed upon it. Then they-would gain by it?—Yes. Supposing any alteration in the duties to take place, so to reduce the difference now existing between the prices of American and Baltic timber very considerably, what effect, in your opinion, would be produced by that alteration in the consump tion of American timber?-1 consider, that if the American pine should approach any where near the other, there would be a very_ great diminution in the use of it. - Do you suppose, that an increased demand for the red-pine timber in this coun try, would be likely to promote an improvement in the manufacture of the article in the country in which it grows?—l cannot say, lam sure. If it was to come into this country in an improved state of manufacture, would it be more capable of meeting the timber from the Baltic?-1t would. Mr. Charles A►cgustus Dalmer, called in ; and examined. In what business are you ? An agent for James Mori and Company, of Memel. ' In what line of business are they engaged ?—They are chiefly engaged in the timber trade. How long have You known the trade of Memel have known the trade of Memel several years; but chiefly from my having been engaged in houses in this country, who have been in that trade. Since what year ?—Since the year 1805. Has the timber trade of Memel increased or decreased much since that period? —lt has decreasedvery considerably. Since what year has it decreased?—The decrease has been most evident since the end of the war, since the conclusion of peace, since 1813 or 1814. To what do you attribute that decrease?—To the decline of demand for this country. Have the prices in Memel fallen since the year 1818?—They have fallen most considerably since the year 1818 ; there was a temporary advance of price in the year 1818, since that time, again, they have fa!len very considerably. Can you state the prices in 1813 and 1814?-1 cannot. Can you state the price of timber in Memel, in 1817?-1 believe, to the best of my. recollection, the price might have been about 335. in 1817, per 50 cubic feet ; but I would not be positive as to that. I\' hat did it rise to in 1838?—About 455. . I believe; I cannot be positive; bu that is so far as I can recollect. . What is the present price of timber in Memel?—Thirty shillings; and, I be lieve, as low as 255. last year. _ _ Has the'diminution of the timber trade at Memel been, in any degree, owing to any regulations Which have taken place at Memel?—No. • Have any regulations of any kind taken place at Memel, regarding the exporta tion of timber, since the period you have known Memel?— Yes. What are those regulations, and to what extent have •they gone ?—Those re gulations have been, that the Prussian' government have taken off thc whole of the export duty, and the Russian government have reduced the frontier.iluty, which was about six per cent. to about three per cent. ' Are you acquainted otherwise with the trade of the port-of Memel?—l have a general knowledge of the trade. Have the exportations - from that country increased or .decreased ?—Decreased. In what extent?—That I am not so well able to say, as a person who has been in Mernel during that period personally. Mr. Jacob Hagen called in ; and EXamined. In what occupation are yon ?—A merchant, in the stave-trade generally. You are not a broker in staves ?—No, an importer and dealer. You do not employ staves for any purpose ? I do not manufacture staves. 11 hat is the duty at present existing upon Quebec staves?—Twenty-five shit lings per 1,000. Is that duty levied 'upon all staves indiscriminately, whatever may be their breadth or thickness ?—Exceeding M) inches, it, is 11. ; not exceeding, 1 2s. 64. The LO inches is the length of the stave ; they are divided into four dif ferent descriptions. The length only is estimated ?—The length only, without reference to the thickness. Then a stave twice the thickness of another, pays the same duty ?—Yes, it does up to a certain point; I believe three inches and a half; but supposing it only three quarters of an inch thick, it would pay the same duty. What duty is.paid on foreign staves? Upon Baltic pipe staves (we take them generally, the others are in proportion by a British, ship) 471. I Bs. 4d. and in pro portion for other staves. Has.the importation of Baltic staves much decreased of late years? Yes, it has. In what proportion? I really cannot answer the proportion, but it has Very considerably decreased. Has the importation of staves from Canada very much increased ? They did very much increase at first, but from the dacreascd demand, they have not I think for the last year .61. two very much increased. Was that increased demand at first occasioned by the state of the war, when we could not obtain staves from the countries in the Baltic? I think it was in some measure. Was not it principally so increased by the demand for the government, and the victualling office? The heavy duty on Baltic produce was not laid on till we had got over the worst of it, till the continent was in some degree open again, so that •it had not the operation it would have had at an earlier period ; the ports have been open ever since. staves, stouter than they used to send them, to bring them up as near the limitations as they can, that we get now very few slight staves from the Baltic; therefore to make an equal quantity of timber, it would be necessary to take the two-inch Quebec staves, which two-inch Quebec staves will be as large, and take up as much room, be as bulky as the finest and largest Baltic pipe staves. What is the price of two-inch Quebec staves in the market? Ninety-six pounds. Are they selling at 961. Yes. What proportion do the two-inch Canada staves bear to the proportion of one and a half generally sold in the market ? One-fifth at Canada, and one-fifth freight for every half-inch. • How long has the present duty of 471. 18s. 4d. existed ? Since the year 1813, when twenty-five per cent. was added. What was.the duty previous to that ? In round numbers twenty pounds; then in 1810, it was doubled to forty pounds; and then the remainder put on. If it was proposed by this committee to recommend an alteration in the duties upon staves, either by imposing in part a duty on Canada staves, or by deducting from the present duty on Baltic staves, so as to place the staves coming from both countries on a fair footing of competition; how do you think that duty ought to he regulated, to what extent ought the alteration to take place? To put them on a footing, I think a duty of something like twenty-three pounds should be taken off from the Baltic staves ; what you choose to put o n m o r e as a bonus t o th e C ana d a trade is so much th e better for them. You conceive at the difference of duty between the existing duty and the duty you recommend, that the trade with Canada would still exist, although twenty-three pounds was deducted from the present duty? I think the trade with Canada would not exist to the extent it does now, with so large a duty as that. To what extent might an alteration take place in the duties without interfering with the consumption of each article in the market ? I think it might be done in three ways ; either fifteen pounds taken off the Baltic, or fifteen pounds put on the Canada, or seven pounds ten taken off the Baltic, and seven pounds ten put on the Canada; it matters not which way. Upon what grounds do you make that calculation? Because the Canadians would be betiNEw&byAen pounds a thousand; I think three or four and twenty pounds; or some such sum, would make it exactly even. Do you calculate the difference of freight in making that estimate? Yes, I do. Are you acquainted with the difference in freight and charges in bringing Canada staves to market, and bringing staves from the Baltic? This year particularly, there have been very few staves come any otherwise than as broken stowage ; and on account of the demand being very small, government not being customers as they used to be, they have come at the very moderate freight of fifteen to eighteen pounds per thousand. From what country? From Canada. What has the freight been from the Baltic ? From 111. to 131. What has the freight been usually of staves from Canada? Staves on freight would be 301. with five per cent. primage, 311. 10S.' What would staves be from the Baltic in the same way, on freight? From 111. to 131. Is the quality of the Canada stave as good as that from the Baltic? It is not esteemed so good, it is not used for particular purposes, such as for oil, and for beer particularly, the brewers will not have a Canada stave in their casks if they know it. Do you conceive that the heavy duty upon Baltic staves is a great impediment in the way of the coopers employed in making casks for exportation, as no drawback is allowed upon staves when manufactured ? For the Baltic staves, it certainly is very material ; it does not make much difference to the Canada staves, because there is no duty on them ; supposing the duty was laid on the Canada staves, it appears to me, that a drawback on the cask might be taken off, equal to that duty, without reference to whether the cask was made out of Canada or Baltic, because the Baltic having paid a larger duty, would only have the same drawback ; and if that principle was admitted, I think a very nice calculation might be made, so as to take it off each sort of cask. What difference do you think it'woUld make in the consumption of staves gene rally, taking off or laying on any duty ; .d o y o u thi n k it wou ld i ncrease ? I s h ou !d think it would. What are the grounds for your opinion ? I can hardly answer that question, with out a little more consideration what the operation of it would be. Do you think that the same quantity of pipes or casks would be manufactured in this country for the use of the wine countries, if an additional duty was laid on the American staves, which would add to the cost of the manufactured article ? I should think it doubtful, whether there would or not. On the contrary, do not you think that if a duty was imposed on Canada staves, which would increase the price of the cask in this country, that the wine countries might be supplied direct from the States of America with the casks now supplied from Great Britain? As far as lam a judge, I think, from our ingenuity, and the way in which we get up our casks, we could work cheaper than they could, not withstanding that. As much cheaper as to countervail any duty? Yes, as far as my opinion goes, not being myself a manufacturer. You suppose, that in the present state of the coopering trade, additional duties imposed upon it would not in the least interfere with its prosperity? No, not on die Canada staves; I think it would not. _ _ Is there now a larger consumption of Baltic staves in the market, or of Canadian staves? I think they must be very nearly alike; I should think of Canada rather the most, but not quite equal to the importation. You are of opinion from your experience, that such an alteration of the duties would be a general facility to the coopers? Yes, and to all of us, as far as I am able to judge ; I do not think that would be felt by the coopers. You are a dealer in staves, buying from the merchant, and selling to the manu facturer ? lam an importer of staves, not much of Canada staves, but in some measure so. If a duty was laid on the Canada staves, would it not prove a direct tax upon ,rade, for so much as casks are used for packages for exportation? It would make he casks come to as much more certaiply. Mr. Thomas Simson, called in; and examined. In what line of business are you engaged? I am at present a broker in the imber trade. You are acquainted of course with the qualities of timber in the different coun. .ries ? I consider that I am. State the order of their value ? The timber from Riga and Dantzic certainly is the best ; next follows that from Memel; then the Swedish and Norway timber; the latter in point of quality is inferior to none; but from its smallness in size, and the bad way in which it is squared, its value is reduced considerably ; then the timber from North America, of which the red pine is considered the most superior, but very little of that comes, compared with the quantity of yellow pine. Have you found_ timber from the British provinces in North America peculiarly subject to the dry rot? I am aware that such is the impression on the minds of many men; I have not perhaps sufficient experience in the Canada trade to form a correct judgment on that, but I believe all timber to be subject more or less to dry rot, more particularly if improperly treated. I imported a large cargo of timber and deals from Norway in 1815, nearly the whole of which was destroyed by dry rot, a circumstance that is still fresh in the minds of many men now in the timber trade; Mr. George Norman was agent for the parties who shipped it, and he was so convinced of the bad state of the cargo, that he Made the an allowance of GCOI. oil' the invoice; I have also met with many instances, where Norway ships have been dreadfully infected with the dry rot. I sold two last year, one not more than six years old, and the other not more than nine, the timbers of both of which were entirely destroyed, by the dry rot; I have a sample of_ the timber now, and I am convinced that the bad state of the timber of those ships, arose from the improper treatment it had .received at the time the ships were built. Is the prejudice which you say exists against North American timber in that re spect increasing, or is it decreasing ? I certainly think it is decreasing, and that the consumptio❑ of the article becomes more general. What circumstances have led you to that opinion ? The general demand there is for it in our market, more than there was sometime since, as well as the con versation I have had with different builders on the subject. The Commercial Dock Company have lately.erected a very large building, entirely of American timber, I believe, under the superintendance of an eminent surveyor; and many of our most respectable timber merchants and builders are in the habit of purchasing large quantities of it. The house of Copland, Holland and Rowles, to my knowledge, purchased many hundred loads of pine timber last year, besides large quantities of deals. • Is it not as much used in casks for wine ?—I think it has been used as much for spirits, but not so much for wine; but for spirits it is approved, and it is thought not to absorb so much of the spirit as the Baltic stave does. In what respect do you conceive the Baltic stave to be superior to the Canada' stave for the purposes of the brewer ?—For all purposes ; I should think the Canada stave is more liable to decay, it does not last to any period except for spirits ; the spirits I understand appear to nourish it, but for any other purpose it decays sooner . ; for small casks, if persons want cheap casks, they will have Canada, but they decay sooner. Are there many purposes for which the timber from North America is considered :o answer, as well as the timber from the north of Eur Ope? Undoubtedly there IV hat is the difference of price between Canada staves, and Baltic staves, in the market ? —The Canada stave, the ,standard stave of an inch and a half thick, is worth about 77'. I Os. to 80/. What is the price of the Dantzic staves?--The Dantzie and Baltic staves are worth about 140 , . but then when we speak of Quebec staves, we take them at the standard of an inch and half; now to bring them . 11p to the size of Baltic staves, tor since this increase of duty the Baltic merchants abrothi have sent the stoutest are many. State them. I consider it to be adapted for the general purposes of building. There are great quantities used in agricultural buildings; and, from the large quan tities that go from London, as well as from Liverpool, to the manufacturing and other districts, I conclude that the use of it has now become general in most parts of the kingdom. There are also very large quantities cut up for fire-wood in the metropolis, and round its suburbs; the consumption of fire-wood is immense ; now,. that ship-building has so much fallen off in the port of London, if it was not for that, I cannot tell where the fire-wood would come from, to supply the inhabitants 9f the metropolis. `Do you mean by fire-wood those small logs of wood that are carried about in carts? Yes; the quantity is immense; the cutting of that wood employs numerous poar families in the winter months. Are the deals from North America considered to answer for many purposes, as well as the deals from the north of Europe ? Most assuredly. - State for what purposes. They are used for floorings of buildings; the box makers use vast quantities of them for packing-cases; the coopers also use great quantities for heading for dry casks; the turners and brushmakers also use great quantities of them. Are you aware of any circumstance to which the falling off of our timber trade with Norway is to be attributed, besides the extension of the trade with the Briti s h provinces of North Ame r i c a? S o man y o th e r channels having been opened of late years, from whence deals are now brought, to what there formerly Were, it is not more than twenty years ago since deals were brought from Memel and Petersburg .in no other way than merely by the way of stowage, but now we have consider ! able quantities from thence, many large cargoes annually; and it is a much less time since deals were brought, in very small quantities, from Gottenburg and many Swedish ports, from whence there come now large quantities; and on the other hand, the use of Norway produce is discontinued in the naval department altogether, with the exception of a few small spars. Formerly the Navy Board used scarcely any thing else but Norway goods; I have been myself in the habit of supplying them with hand- rhasts (small masts;} but now they will not have them at any price ; they consider that they get better supplied from the Russian and Prussian ports, as well as from Canada. _ Have you ever resided in Norway? I hare; altogether I believe abOut three years, -or a - little more. At what period of. time ? I was last there in 1815. Did you travel much through the country ? I travelled a great deal in it ; I believe there are few Englishmen who have seen so much of Norway as I have. What appeared to be the state of the population of that - country ? In 1806 it • was stated, I think, to be 725,000, but when I-was laSt there, I was Ica to under stand, that the pdpulatiort had deereased, which I have every reason to believe was true; for in 1808 and 1809 I was *here myself; 'many thousands died for th'e ivant of food, occasioned by -the blockade of their coast at that time. • Is there reason to expect, from what you have seen of that country, that any T - 4,7 ft> I 0 111 • Or,tltztr, ~ increased importation of timber from thence would lead to a larger exportation of British manufactured goods from this country? Ido not conceive it would. State your reasons for that opinion ? They certainly might take a few more articles than they do at present, but they do not stand in need of so much from this country as they were formerly in the habit of taking, in consequence of having many manufactories recently established there. Of what description are those manufactories? They have established a woollen cloth manufactory; they have paper-mills, glass-houses, and they have a wire ana several nail manufactories ; some of which are conducted by gentlemen from this country ; they have a great many distilleries, and several other manufactories of minor consideration. Do they generally use their own woollen manufactures? Generally they do now, except their fine cloths ; they make their coarse cloths now nearly equal to our second cloth in this country, but they are still deficient in the art of dying. Can the Norwegian ships, in your opinion, navigate at lower rates of freight than British ships? Unquestionably they can. In what respects, and for what reasons? The manner in which the seamen are fed and paid, and the very low rate at which they can build their ships. Can you state the proportion of Norwegian-built and British-built ships that came to this port from Norway last year ? I think we had not more than one-sixth of British tonnage in the port of London last year from Norway. You have not the exact proportions ? I have not; but there were sixty-two sail of ships, only eleven British ; and I think the tonnage is something less than one-sixth. Do you know whether they have any coal in Norway? They use charcoal. Do they use charcoal in their manufactories? Yes; their offal timber is con sumed chiefly in making charcoal. Do they make charcoal from fir timber? Yes, from the slabs and tops of the trees and branches. Has not the excessive duty on European timber operated with peculiar severity on the small timber of Norway? No, Ido not'consider that the duty on Baltic timber has operated against the Norway timber. You do not ascribe any part of the distress that has existed of late years in Nor way, to the heavy tbities on timber? I consider the distress to have originated in consequence of the neglect of agriculture. Was it not considered, some years ago, that the Norwegians derived a very great profit from their trade in timber to this country? The prices of timber in Norway were more than double what they are now ; the first cargo of deals I bought in Norway in 1805,4 gave 241. per hundred for the best red deals; they are not now worth more than 101. Were not the people in a state of comparative riches at that time ? They enjoyed the whole monopoly of the deal trade at that time ; there were very few deals came from any other country. Mention Cite contents of the hundred you speak of? One hundred and twenty pieces of twelve feet three by nine inches. If Norway was in that state of opulence you have described it to have been in some years agO, do you not think it would still import various commodities from this country, although it might not import those commodities which you now state it acquires from its own manufactures? They would immediately forsake agriculture, and with the produce of the mountains would buy corn abroad, rather than cultivate the valleys to obtain it at home; such has been the conduct of the Norwegians for ages past, and which I consider as the chief cause of their present wretched state. When you state that those sixty vessels which came here from Norway last year, arrived in a so much larger proportion than the number of British vessels employed in that trade, are you of opinion that those sixty vessels were employed in a profitable trade? I should conceive that the Norwegians thought it profitable, otherwise they would not have sent them. From your particular acquaintance with that country, you are of opinion that the Norwegian ships are now employed very beneficially for the ship-owners of that country? More to the benefit of the ship-owners of that-country, than the British ship is employed to the British ship-owner most assuredly. Are not the Norwegians carrying on a very extensive export of timber to Hol land, and other countries ?• They are ; they always enjoyed a large timber trade with Holland. Mr. Edward Patzcker called in, and examined What are you ? A merchant at Memel. In what firm do you carry on business? Under the firm of C. B. Patzcker, my father. Has there been a great alteration in the timber trade between Memel and this country, of late years? Since the war, a great alteration ; before the war, we used to have 950 to 1,100 ships in one year, and since the war we have had from two to three hundred only, English ships. When you talk of nine hundred ships, do you mean nine hundred ships trading between Great Britain and Memel ? Yes. Do you mean that number of cargoes was loaded in the year for England ? Yes. How many cargoes were loaded for Great Britain during the last year? About 270 or 280; there have not been more. To what cause do you attribute that great diminution in the trade ? To the high duties here; for before the peace, the duties were only 16s. and some pence, and now they are 31. ss. and 31. Bs. in . a foreign ship. Has that diminished trade in timber produced a great alteration in the circum stances of the people in Prussia? Yes, for it is the only trade now which we can carry on ; wheat and all the rest of the articles cannot be brought here; timber is the only one that can be brought, and that leaves no profit at this time, and the trade from Poland has ceased very much in consequence of it ; the people cannot sell their goods, and we cannot take such quantities of timber as we used to do, and therefore they cannot take English goods from us. Nor any other? No, we li;ve no other goods but English goods on our part; we get our other goods by sea from England, and the rest that comes there are very trifling, and the people in Poland do not like them ; they take nearly all English goods. What markets in the interior do you supply ? Warsaw ; Berdeshoff, not far from Odessa; Broddy, on the frontiers of Austria; KiVof, and there are many little places which take the goods again to transport them to the Russian frontiers, and many places on the Russian frontiers, where we carry on the trade, and they get it into the country from thence. 'What may the distance be from Memel, of the most distant of those pla:•ei ? The most distant place is Kiofshoff, which is about twelve to thirteen hundred English miles. The rivers are the Niemen, the Oder, and the Vistula? They are. . . What are the description of English goods to which you particularly refer ? All sorts of manufactured goods, earthen ware, and colonial produce, but most rums. Item we took great quantities; as that is for the Polish market, it is the most useful. If such an alteration were to take place in the duties on timber in this country, as to give the Prussians a larger share of the trade than they at present enjoy, do you think that that would produ , e increased friendly feelings on the part of the people of your country to the people of this country? 'They would certainly take far more goods from hence, as they could get better rid of them ; the Poles would take more from them. At what price was timber in 1806, previous to the tear? We buy it in Prussia by the shock ; the load, free on board as we sell it, would h ave b e e n 50 s. i n 1866. What is the present price? The present price is _ . . What duty was imposed by the Prussian government in 1806 ? Five per cent. and a duty at the frontiers, which was about 3 per cent. which made it about 8 per cent.;_ but the export duty was taken off entirely last year, and the frontier duty made only about one-half. Was not the duty on the frontier 6 per cent. before it was reduced? No, it was not so much as that. Does the timber sent from Memel to this country at present leave a good profit ? 'None. Does it leave a loss? Yes, it leaves a loss. Does . any article of export from Memel to this market, at present leave a profit ? —A t present, none. pave the excessive duties upon timber operated during the whole time of their continuance_ to render the trade in timber from Memel to this rountry unprofitable ? —Yes, always; and to shew you more clearly, in those times we used to get down from Poland five or six thousand shock, and now we get down only a thousand, and last year only four hundred. Has the export of grain from Memel much decreased? There is none exported now; only very little, at least. Was the export great, formerly ? Oh yes, it was great. Which was the most valuable article of export from Memel, grain or timber?— Grain. Have you much acquaintance with the article of staves ? We deal in staves as well as timber. ' Is that a considerable. branch of trade in Prussia? Yes, it is a considerable trade, for we cannot get oak plank without buying staves ; the oak plank of our country is reckoned to be the best for building ships, and is in general used by the British navy ; we are obliged to buy some staves with them, or we cannot get them. Has the high duty on oak in this country impeded the importation into it since the war? There are no importations of oak only by government. - - And there never have been any ? Yes, there have been formerly, but since the duty, they cannot_be imported without a loss. _ What is the price of oak timber in Memel? A load of oak timber will be about twelve pounds. _ _ And of plank? That is plank; we ship no timber to England; that is twelve pounds for . fifty cubic fe et . _ _ _ Were you in the habit before the war, of exporting that to England? There was none before the war; it used to be sent from Dantzic; -but since that it has come to Memel.. There are two canals, which lead, one to Memel, and the other to Dantzic; and that which leads to Dantzic has no sluices; therefore they cannot bring it so easily as they can to Memel, the canal to that having sluices, and being a very nice canal indeed. Is the exportation of.staves from Memel to this country very much impeded by the high duties existing here at present ? Yes, very much ; we cannot export staves without a loss. What is the price of staves at Memel? 601. a thousand in Memel State the dimensions ? They are about 60 inches length, from GO to 70; and they are five and a half inches broad, and two and a half inches thick, these we call pipe staves ; but the duty on such staves would with charges, excepting freight, amount to 51i1.; the freight would be 121. What proportion of the 521 is duty? Nearly 491. What willthey sell for here ? They seltberefor from 1101. -to 1121. Ls there any duty upon the expertatiOn of oak timber from Memel? None. Is there any duty on the exportation of staves from Memel? None; all the duties are taken off from wood articles.