The Sun. — London, England, 1803-06-07 00:00:00

snlent menaces of the Enemy, that England could • not meet France single_handed : the experience of ages and the page of history refuted this untruth, .and evinced that England never encountered. France with so much energy, effeet, or advantage, as when she was single.handcd, and, added His . • ' Royal Highness, " lie who makes such an asset.. • " don is either a liar in his heart, or a fool, that * 1 should be. sent to school to learn better." . He gave Ministers full credit for their endeavours to maintain Peace, as long as it could consistently be dont, and concluded by warmly declaring his cOn , • viaion, that the Country !suffered . much from the .gtosa miscondua of Hia Majesty's late Ministers; - • •and that.atootter than they should again be brought isstoMis Majesty's Councils, he would do any thing to keel) . * present Ministers in power. The ,Eartiof COVENTRY made a few observa. tins*, aptiaientiy. idiepproliationaof the way in which 'lVliniiters were opposed. from certain guar ters, which brought to his 'mind the language of the Poet. Willing to wound, and yet afraid to strike!" Lord MINTO entered upon the general subjea of discussion in a apeech of considerable length, and which - he", .d6played• his usual ability.e-- The proposition of his Noble Friend, he said, had his most hearty concurrence, but there was one re. belt from the conduit of Ministers, which would induce his cordial support, namely, the - rupture . that had taken place with Fiance. He censured the Treaty or Amiens, as a mere, and 'an unfor innate rxl vrimental measure. With resped to the affair of Malta, he argued, in the course of a detailed die. cussion of the merits of the relevant Article in the Treaty, that France had no right, even'under the express stipulations, to call upon' us to evacuate Malta. 'Ministers were wise in retaining it ; went farther, and stated his opinion, that no sys_ tern} of substitution would be adequate. No gua. rantee whalever would affOrd sufficient security ; the occupa'tioo of that post by any other Power, however tespedahle, or any thing shott of adual occupation ; by her own troops, would answer tire. necessary purposes of Great B r i ta i n . H e iinpreased the consideration of the immense accessions - of territory - and power made by Irrance, ever since the Preliminary Treaty, and he insisted upon' the importance, and even the necessity. of Great Britain possessing a ii#4t in the Mediterranean, the more especially in contemplatioft of the increased power and territory of France. While engaged in this part of his subjea, the Noble Lord stated his opinion, that the subjugation of Switzerland gave France a greater prepondetante in .Europe than any of her other con. quests, not even excepting the Law Countries, and was or more importance ta Great Britain, with the eXception ,of • the latter acquisition. TN's Marin ipg change of Continental circumstances, would have intitled this, Country to come to a new ad. justment with France, and to recur, if neces. sary, to the alternative of Arms. He concur. red in every thing in the Declaration, as to the justice and necessity of the War : he expatiated upon the ill-Oreas to Great Britain of exclu-ling tier from the Continental System, which he termed a new species of political communication : he ten. eyeed 'the, etinduet of Ministers' in some points of view. As to the affair of Bseitzeland, he entered into stains disciyiSion of the . Point Ito prove .that the orders sent out 'with respect - to the Cape must he in contemplation of the condo& of France respeding Switzerland, as the pretext of its being on account of she French Tronps in Holland, was done away by the tad of their having surrendered that Posr, without receiving any security for their being withdrawn. }le entertained no objection to speedy negotiation,- ,but let us take care not to abdicate our rights ; let •:44iegotiation betas soon.as praticable—let the sec ur i t y 41 the Country be cliietiy looked tti, and if these ro,ints catiltot be gained by negotiation, let us be peer ared for a brave and many resistance. Earl GROSVENOR, in 'the course of Isis obser. vations upon the 'points in discussion, advanced, that Never was a War conducted with .greater energy, spirit, and abilities, than the late War. He ex:. pressed his surprise at such Propositions being brought forward after the sense of the House being so fully expressed, as it was a few night since such a line of proceeding appeared to him to he a departure front the Noble Earl's own views, and on that ground he thought is would be adviseablc in him to withdraw the Proposition. He thought nn. `thing of the kind should at the present be urged, as It must tend to cramp the exertions of Ministers.— With respea to the idea of a Vote of Thanks to Ministers, he thought they were fully satisfied with what had taken place—r 4 cry of" Pear I" from the Miniftterial Bench)—such a_ proceeding would lie thought be unnecessary : the Noble Earl concluded by observing, that he must ,be under the necessity of negativing the Resolution, were it not Withdrawn. Lord POLTON delivered his opinion at some length, and adverted to the impropriety of adjourn ing she decision upon such questions as the present ; upon gerierai topics, such as the state of the Nati on , Sze. it may eroperly enough be done ; in the preient case the utmost unanimity was desirable, and they should enable Ministers to call the ever. };lee of the'Country into aCtiona-allis Lordship re ferred to what hail been said of the Treaty of Amiens, and seemed to vindicate that measure, as one justifiable, under the circumstances of the case ; with respect to the propositions of the Noble Earl, be, on the whole, deemed . liiinself warranted in ". giving. his negative thereto. The Earl of WARWICK took occasion to repeat Isis sentiments respealing the Treaty 'of Amiens, which Instead of its effeating a Peace,'he'eonsiclered merely as a Truce, and as a measure of experiment. With respect to the question more tainiedtately• be. fore the House, though lie agreed with many of the points advanced by the Noble Earl, yet under the present circumstances a te thought it would 'be ad. viseable to withdraw it, He was not aware what good effeas could arise from such discussions-at pre. sent; they would give at least an appearance of division in the Country, at a ; time when.the most general and decided unanimity was essentially ne, cessary, - Tht Earl of SCARBOROUGH delivered hia' sentimentsabut in such a tone of voice, as precluded, US from hearing him distinaly ; all we could cellea twin the' Noble Earl was, that he had given toss 1 support to the late Administration on the ground, that it had saved this Country, nay, the World, from more than annihilation. Laid DE DUNSTANHLLE called the attention. of their Lordships with a telerenee to the. Treaty of' Amiens, (whiCh he now considered as dead and hauled), to the unfavourable circumstances of the Country when it wa's made : were Peace not then .made, tire Tables of both Houses of Parliament would have been covered with Petitions the next Session, which would lead to the conclusion of Peace under still unfavour.d circumstances. - His Lordship then proceeded to rather a dztaiied discits. sion of the subjea in question ; .adverting to the prominent i.iarts of the Negotiation, vindicated the contiat of Ministers thereon, for which, instead of Censure,• he deemed them intitled to the Thanks of the House. The Earl CARYSFORT on the ,other side, entered into a .detailed review of the subjea at con. sidcrable length, and censured Ministers for most of the prominent parts of their condua; he cen. cured the late pacification, and contrasted the.situa. two of the Country prior to that period, in point of acquired territory and extensive force, with its present-.situation.--On these grounds he felt it his duty to support the resolution. The 'Earl of DARNLEY after a short explani. lion between hini and the Noble Lord .who spoke last, as to his conception of a particular part of his Lordship's argutitent,. expressed his acquiescenct. with what had fallen. from a Royal. Dike, as to the miscondtia of the late Ministers with resped to the War. In regard to the question b4re the House, he considered it in a great degree to island upon the consideration, whether Ministers had early enough, (after they had signed the Preliminaries in a spirit of ample concessiona taken their stand, with firm. ness and spirit, against the aggressions and encroach. ments of France ; whether by such a line of con. duct they might not have preserved Peace, or, in the other alternative, gone to war with' greater ad. vantage. On- these grounds we understocil his Lordship to say he had no objeaion to vote for the first resolution, though in other points of view, he would willingly support Ministers ;.they appeard to possess the confidence of the Sovereign ; he hoped they would profit by their recant experience, and condua the War with .spirit, vigour and energy, to an honourable and successful termination. , Lord 'HOBART was anxious principally to' pd. dress the House, in consequence of what had been repeatedly said on the subject of Reductions-,lie felt himself called upon to state the real fads: he as. sured 'theirLordships, no reduCtions had taken place except in unavoith 4 de cases : The Militia, they knew, could not be kept up, neither could the Fen. elide Corps—a number of Men whose services were only temporary, were also - discharged many of these Were afterwards enlisted on high bounties, A considerable ReduCtion was made .with respect to the Cavalry, grounded on doubts of the best Officers, that even during the War, that part of the Esta_ blishment was much too high held in hi s h an d a detailed specification as to thOse points, signed by the Adjinant,General. - .With respea to the Naval reduaions ; a comparative statement of the Naval force of the Country in the - years following the pa. cifications in 1763--.-83, and after the late War, taking it on the Bth of March last ; at the first of those periods the aggregate number of Ships of War in Commission (so we understood his Lordship) were 161,. at the second 13+, and at the third 538. The Noble Secretary then adverted to the affair of Switzerland : he stated the particulars of the con. du of Ministers on that. occasion, and in which he believed the. Public would go along with them. He next touched upon the proceed. ings with respect to the., Cape, in which he also defended the - . conduCt of Ministers with great abi. lity, and entered into a calculation as to the real value of the Cape as a naval station in time of war, and as a port for the advantage of our East India shipping. In either view he seemed to agree, it was nut worth the enormous expence which attend. ed the holding it; and, above all, under the circum. stances of the case, 'it was not a consideration of that nature and importance as should induce them to risk a ren ,, wal of War, and under the injurious imputation of their having violated the Treaty upon its account. There was another point on which he was anxious to explain : he understood it had been said in another place, that he had refused to confer with the Maltese eputies, and the reason assigned was, that 'he was apprehensive of giving umbrage to.the French Government ; he was indeed almost ashamed to troubl e t h e House upon this point, but it was treated by some as if entitled to credit; under that impression he must distinctly state that he had never made any inch declaration, or ever had authorised any other person to make one for him. So far from it, he had had two interviews with these Gentlemen, one at his own house and the other at his office. The ,Earl of SUFFOLK made a few observations with respeit to the reduitions which had been made. Lord.Gk.ENVILLE went into a general review of the conduit of Ministers at considerable length. lie charged them with negleCling to make thosc adequate representations against the repeated insults and aggressions of the French Government, which had they been made they might have prevented the calamity of , War, whilSt if we had been then forced into a War, by the refusal on the part of the French Government to make reparation we should have enteted into it with the advantage of haVing our'Cunquests still in our possession, and our Forces undisbanded. lie repeated the charges before made against Ministers as to their conduit with lesiva to Switzerland, Malta, the detention of the English Vessels in France, the arrest of Cap tain D'Auvergne, and various other points ; and concluded .by, expressing his entire approbation of the Motion. The Earl of DARNLEY, Earl GR,P6VENoit, and Lord CR114%, 1 LLE, severally explained. The LORD CIaNCELLOR entered at consi. derahle length into a 'justification of the eonfititiof Miniiters. , He'deprecated the introdudion of the Treaty of Amiens, and the eondua ,of Ministers antecedent to that event, into the Debate, as Parlia ment had already expressed their approbation of (hitt eonclat and of that . Treaty. lie contended t h at adequate representations had been made by,Minis. ter§ Jgainst the insults and assrets:iutts of the French Clvernment, and having gone over all the topics ‘vhich have been before urged on the same side Of the question, he co n clud e d hy.an appeal to thel-fouse and the country kr a vigorous ptcsecu. Lion of the coniest into which we were forced by the hostile multi& of France.. Fad SPENCER 'supported the arguments of Lord GRENVILLE, and declared his aliprobation of die . Lord 'PELHAM said a few words relative tf) the arrest of Captain D'Auvergoe, which he said was to he attributed to his assuming the title of Prince de 'Bouillon at Paris. Lord GRENVILLE explained, The lionse then divided on the motior : Contents - 17 NotiContents 86 'Majority 69 The other Resolutions were put .and negatived without a division, and the •House adjourned at two o'clock this morning. HOUSE OF COMMONS. MONDAV, JUNE 6. . 4 second Report. from the - Commissioners to inquire in to Naval Abuses was presented, and ordered to be rutted. Several Petifions• were presented from the Silk Nianufac turers, and from the Al3llUradtUrgrs of Earthen Ware. against the Consolidation Duty Bill—Ordered to lie on the Table. A' Report was made from the - CoMmittee appointed to.try and determine the merits of the Election for the County of Radnor, stating, that the Committee we,;e of opinion, that the Sitting Members were duly etched, and that the Peti tions were not frivolous or vexatious: • TheShip-Burning Bill was.read a third timeand pasSM VANSITTAttr tr)Qlr,:gi, that the House should to-mor row, resolve into a Committee, to tzke into consideration that part of His Majesty's Speech of. November last, which re. (steels() gfahtinggreater aceomModation to 51ercantile Per_ sorts--Ordered, • • - Mr. VANS ITTART said, he wished it to be understood, that the two Notices of Motions which stood for this 14Y, viz. The one rehting to the Funding of Exchequer NM-- and the other, respecting the employing of -oreign .Seamen on board our Ships, were waved for the present. The Ship, Passengers' Bill was read a third time and passed. The Militia Pav Bill was read a first time. The S ECK ETARY at .Th4R, on moving that the Bill should be read x second time to-morrow,, said, that though it was nof usual to print hills of this description, yet he should move th at thi s Eel be printed, hccatiseit was in.some, degree new-modelled, and extended to ScOtland.-LOrdered . to be read t second 011ie to.onorro*. The Ordnance Lands Bill went . through a Committee, Report was brought up, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.. The-SECRZT.IRY Jr WAR moved the Order of the Day for going into a Committee of Supply. He also moved the several Estimates which had been presented, tespe6ing the Army and Ontnanc6, should be referred to the said Cum. mittee.—Ordered. • The House nevine resolved itself into a Committee of supply, the SECRETARY rat WAR said, that in rising. to submit to the consideration of the Committee the remaining. Army Estimates, he wished ro ob serve, that they consisted of two parts :—Otie of them related to those Estimates that were not pre sented to the House at. the commencement of the Sessions. They were the 'usual Estimates for Sup. elementary Officers, Pensioners, at the Royal Hoe.' pitals at Chelsea and Kilmainhato, the Royal Mill. tary College, and the Military :Asylum : These Estimates•could nor be presented belbre, because the whole, of the expence could not be ascertained until the seven Garrison Battalions- were complete. The second head of • Estimates related to some aug mentation that had been ordered in the Regular Forces, the Militia and Supplementary Militia, ansl to some further expences which had taken place in the Barrack Department. These Estimates 'which related to the Supplementary Offieers, Pensioners et Chelsea and Kilmainham, &c. were the same as be fore.' The lixpence of the Royal Military College Was greater than that of last year, it amounted to lit fol. This increase was owing to a second Com pany of Cadets being formed. This Institution be. log found to answer so well' all the purposes for which it was formed, it had been thought expedient to add a second Comptes , of Cadets. Any body wilt) considered fairly the nature of this Institution, would, he was sure, agree with him, that it was an expence well laid out on the part of the Public. 'He trusted that it was an institution that would he con stantly kept up, as it.atorded to young men destin. ed for the Army, better means of instrudion than . they could obtain in this Country : he hoped also, that it would always be managed wittoeconomy,. and without any partiality or favour. He now came to the Royal Military Asylum ; for this service be should move for a Sum of 3 t,oool. of this sum 2.1,0001. was to be applied to cPM- Om the building. . was - sorry to ...say, that the buildings which were completed, cost more than had been originally estimated, though: every attempt had been made to make-the estimates. as accurate as possible—This inerease'of the expense beyond the estimate arose partly from this circuM. • stance, viz, - that soon after the estimate was formed the dispute with the Northern Powers took place, , which caused a great increase in the price of many of rite articles used in the building—Thlie how ever, would lie hoped he the whole expthce of the building, and he shauld only ask io,bool. for fitting up the rooms, Sze. He came no* to the accord head of estimates, vix, those which related to the augmentation of the . forces.—"fhe augmet tation • which had been ordered was not to a very con siderable extent, for the Commi tee. would recollea that when die Army wets voted in ptceleber last i t was upon an unusually . high establishment's the; . highest that ever was propesed in timeof Peace, It was thought that completing the Array by a-stnell augmentation would be- suffiden tee-as the Army Voted t. %4/as 130,000 men.--The augmen tat i on that would ' take. place, would be principally in the Cavalry. The Committee would recalled, that by the:plan which he proposed in December last, ten men per troop of the Cavalry were to remain dismeunted those men were now to be mounted, and theii place toile supplied with Recruits ; this would' thaleer: eo men per troop. There was also to be an augmentattonin the Foot-Guard s . Th e next otigmentation arose from a regulation which had been adopted ofabolishing the . Field Officers haying Companies ; in consequence: of which there would be three additional Captains in each Regiment. He would not now enter into any arguments upon thepropriety of this regulation, he would only say, that it was one that met 'With the approbation of the mot experienced Officers of A:my ; by this plan, the dteatien of , Captain Lieutenant would be abolished, and he would' of course have one of the ehree Companies, another of the Cornpaeies . was to , be given to a Captain on half pay ; and the senior Lieutenant was to have the third Company on condition of mishit men, anti the senior Ensign to succeed him on raisit •To men. The expence of this measure would 1 about 35,0001. viz. 26,000 fin Great Britain; al noon for Ireland. The greatest part of slit e: pence of these Estimres arose from the Militiai, amounted to a SUM of 1,267,0001. for Great Br lain, and 4.80,4971. for Irela: d. Contingencie 13,3451., Cloathiog;:- 43,89 . 11. The Militia Great Britain would amount to 60,893, Supplerno tary Militia a 24,000, making (exclusive of Office: Non.commissioned Officers, &c.) the number : i reek and file -above 73,000 men. The t Ireland, amounted to. r 8,000 men, making alter !her above 90,000 Mtn. And he was happy say, that a, very short t irre indeed would elapse. be foie they were ell embodied and fie fur service. , The additional expence ftir the Supplementatr Mi , litia, would amount to 416,0001. the additiontil.ea eence or the Barrack Department le,ooo l . Mak in the total expellee for Great Britain, 2,540,00dita4, for Ireland; 570,0001. being altogether, 3, t to,oo o Having thus stated the general items, ,he woultrat trespass at present any longer upon the ComMitre but would 'be perfeelly ready to give any Gentle mail every information in his power. He then elove his first resolution. Mr. WINDHAM said, he did not rise to Or into,any detail upon the subjeCt ; he had no ob i ec (ion to the details which the Right I Csealiei nat had gone into, except one, which appealed in calculated to revive the praCtice of raising mol l a r rank, , he w s h h ic o h ul, w i a ,a s hv i , ;o s d o u b ei je iv a e t o o f it s . uch l i t n l, ea ; : s ro r t e e in iet tt lre c a . •to in a time of Otessity,- when tht inconseairsl4 , whiCh it was calculated to produce was nut fareter.n but he should be sorry to see it revived again• lit' obj•et in rising was not so much to commell l q!' the details which had been laid before the CUti as to take the opportunity which the Army mates always afforded of making som e übserva tieni upon_ the War, and the general J , llc of the try The first' objet. upon*. which hr shoulti ntII any iiliservations; was one upon w`eich he I F aouChed on a fortilei occasion, he Meant the piety 'of IniVing so large a 'part of our fo rre .l i a consist of Militia. He thought the scale upon ' 111 „ it was proposed to form the military force was because the population of- the Country was ' lc e that it would not afford a large Militia and 1,10 Army, and if the Militia was to consist 0 1 great a number of 'men, it would dry up the .tr : .sources for recruiting the Army. In Mai • th e . P f i position that was now 'Made would have this ; fed, it would- stickle the Militia and drY•n uis ta the,Army.s . If such large bounties were givc,"; men for the Militia, who were only to serve ing -she War, and to remain at hoittei 4 4 ° ,4; undoubtedly prevent the recruiting for the —Bur it would not only , keep the AlloY e s : ft stand, but would make it go backwataisil°,'44 would encourage men -to desert from the. Art: o , o obtain the high bounties in the Militia; and ii!alea perleftly well known that men made a trade ° _,.,a a ss praCtiees. One reason, perhaps, why illeA t j at a . such a partiality for augmenting the og re meth, was, that the money with which rtie . to, a le nc v l ie t t l i te t r i etr n e o i t t vic.oanslethoiltiightitleirsi:Pc of ouidlia %ll :1 • *711 / 3 °14 nn°° to . „owasttee notice. -.But . his g meta! d o f f an was, that it would - c reme a Militia instea .v..a Army, Thi s appeared to hi ni to be an . tint . : 0 , oh onion ; however, wou ld in some degreeiv de pend upon the purpose for whic h the in i n en e • o's wanted, and the nature of the War in tea were engaged. It was the duty ao rrusteo • the first with the Government of the Country, in o f tho place, to form in their own minds the nature re.; War Which they were to 'carry on, anti then !iti gulate the Public Force accordingly. Reas°lli, this manner, and supposing those were 111 c F r eis ciples upon whiCh Ministers Wed, it was to form a notion of the nature of the War establishments which they proposed of- ti° they meant to carry on, from the n ature of . those sneering the subjeet in this poitofati°essl7,aketisEidtlra:: etl hint no cumulation, 'because upon the IT ° ca aj, which was proposed (though indeed wait ; 1 if they had no pl a n at ail), he was led• to infer to a as if ther i t , h r e o a v ' e h a re d .rn op e t i e c 4c it teas had gone into the War w i t hout a s all can' t - ryc a . the nattire of h.--After endeavouring to in,ese PeaceasiOng- ass they could, theyau lhr, were. forced into a War, ar'" ara l sermett to consitletli just like any other W a % ar aa. thought they did enough if they took the rnea rs o f. USUAL upon such occasioes; such as isanitee, L',t te • Marque and Reprisal, callieg put the Militi a ' ' d t o It, however, they . had any plain at all, it iee ti tTl e e re be one of atria defence, toat a s to say, we 's's „a( wait rissii,ely until we could find. an opeortoiie'd of :sneaking into a Peace, as we had, just s nt ' c i a s es, and looget taaft:ley out of one. we voluntal;ly ceolinea '"'„ r i s n 'itinr• to 'Lis sett of War, it, would be, in his i o r; t - olt , extrenitly impolitic ; but it we were forced our situation_ wits deplorable indeed. Ti' e all con hi conditions in which a con:stilt' or an jow'ssiblo could he placed-in, .was one in which i r `'a s P r o l ate toltse all, and Mir :asible to win any thing. w hich was not allinstance to las:found ih history In . f a NAtiOrl- successfiilly carried on a sYscetn o f defence. - Every khew the . advr ra g h . e a antis assailtots- had over thole whom they attilCb,,e'Tf that which was true of individuals was true All Natkm.• He now Came to consider how far s vo force as was now proposed was good all a L lefe :uf force. It appeared to him that for the porpoe,,.o defetices you i t i on)fr as pdssible, because , regular forces cots • • 0 . a c ut opposed by regular forces--it was diamon aiana, ought to have as large a reg1i140,14740 tnc:nd. Rut even adOpting stets were eating upon., be would contend 1!).41$0;, would not have Militia et;uugh, supposing th at ases could realize the number of men that. they hat { pro'` rida ° posed, and an invasion took place. d e to ro' - the system therar,.`„ta t. mean time that such exertions were inA eo ,A, rrilf an inetfet.tual force, the recruiting. of ti .i wo o : would be essentially impeded. If at last it i d : he necessary to hive recourse to more oct et !! o nfl idi beg 0' it would; in his opinion, be better ular °I • energetic means of raising she force of ;li e !with flya.would have a forCe still less regod.i6 the Militia, Militia, but one tha t should " at m e such way of 'the recruiting of th e Army. 0