The Sun. — London, England, 1845-02-14 00:00:00

o ever likely to do so, and therefore he was sneaking d isinterestedly. He could not but express surprise at his Noble Friend saying that the report of the Board would not influence Parliament. His Noble Friend said, " We do not act judicially, we do not decide, we are merely anciliary to Parliament. All we do is to examine the case, and report upon it to Parliament." Why, this was true, but supposing he (Lord Brougham) repre sented a railway company, and supposing he proceeded to Parliament, would not the first thing that he would hear be, " You are throwing away your time, 3'cst have been reported against. What chance have you of passing your Bill ?" Did any man bought a farthing's worth of stock in his life, nor was suppose th at t h e reports were to be waste paper. Why, ao, they would be followed by both Houses of Parlia ment. Government were pledged to the reports, be cause a portion of them had sanctioned them. True it was that th at portion of the Board were not in the Cabinet, but, until th e l ate extraor di nary ret i rement o f a Right lion. Friend of his, one at least had been in the Cabinet. No, these reports would be taken by Parlia ,luent. They were not living in Uutopia, where Par liament was independent of the Government or the Government of Parliament.—(Laughter.) It was said that where the Executive had pronounced an opinion, and had reported that opinion to Parliament, they were ht bo un d by that opinion in their House. This was not ne sort of world they lived in. But now it was not a overn ment! Well, if it was not a G overnment, i t was very imp ortant member of one—a very important col league of one. He should like to have a return, n( xt Year, showing how many reports of this Board of five Members, aeiing er President of e oard of Trade, had not und the the been sanctioned by Par ß me liant, a t h iad "NV many had. His own convic ti on was— at the result would be just the sa me as the report of the Board of Trade in ninety /due cases out of a h un d re d p er h aps i n a hundred caFes out of a h un d re d— t h ere wou ld b e f ound a literacoincidence between the decisions of the Board ions of Trade reported now to Parliament, and the decisions record e d i n the Statute Book. lie said this with very great confidence, not merely from past experience—not merely Judging from the probabilities and improbabilities fr"in the speech of the Noble Lord himself. He had listened, not only to the first part of that speech, but to the l ast , I 'E—end the whole of the last part, and it Y 4lts a de monstration of the truth of the assertion he had JUst m a d e. , The utmost possible precautions were taken, t o attid nis Noble Friend—and most justly and properly, w c - to prevent the least whisper from getting abroad, reiereby the result attending the inquiry—the probable sioft of that inquiry—might be conjectured; first, the je f ' e,:rterztllwesren.ot entrusted with the executi ve , an d there al lock was p rov id e d , as well as a special of secpeeure these papers. The genius of the Bramah d aY—(Laughter)—was put into requisition, that s o ere might be a new tabl r e key for an unopenable ss•••---(11,euevved laughter.) This box was sent by a - e e cial messenger, at a particular part of the day —at a quarter- past four just when the St oc k Exchange w as shut, to the Gazette office. He was the on ly person entrusted with it, and no one human being could ever form a conjecture what would he the opinion of the Board. But then why all this secrecy, and why as this multiplied precaution to prevent the publicity of th e least whisper getting out of the decision of the hoard? If the decision of the Board was of no conse quence, and was not to effect the final result,—if it was to be considered only as the opinion of five men for the piPurpose of saving Parliament the trouble of entering so nutely into the que s ti on,—if the Board did that only, it tit wax ancillary only to Parliament, and not to guide w bY, he would as k , di d they not publish their pro of things at Charing-cross.—(Hear, hear.) The reason o secrecy was thi s, that the decision of the Board c ' t only operated on Parliament, but finally decided here l vba t ra ilways Bills sh ou ld b e passed and what not. Now i. r were three schem es o f ra i lways in contemplation be e°ll: the Board, an d the question was which of the three w hich be s uccessful in the opinion of the Board, and Vlh • of the two should be condemned. The parties I befor e the Board, it examined the case. His min e Friend at first said that the Board did not GX3- %it'll evidence; they had no power to examine or call th ee ess ea, and they i n f ormed themselves in the best way by rh eet ild• The Board examined the evidence produced the te parties without calling witnesses. The reports of leas the rd were published i n t h e G azette. N ow, what th e ,9azriseS It was the official print that gave to e nd I t Tolle the condemnation of two of the three schemes, ag a i n " approval of the remaining one. They reported te nse s t two and in favour of one ; and what was the Si eek c Tence ? The decision was whispered upon the f irst p ro ! c h alage, and those who had shares in the two ad , ,t pets soil out at a loss, while the last rose in the woes ito an incalculable extent. Now, it was well to Me nse a what way they could best regulate this im press Power for the safety of the public, so as not to sho cll is the property of individuals. If, for instance, shar es l " , as anyhad done, invest 5,0001. in railway sho u l d ' er if he had any connexion who had done so, he Iteewi naturally enough, feel greatly interested in Ileeidesi!eil hey grounds the Board of Trade had so lave] in were all aware of the immense capital 11 041 1 1 in those railway schemes ; yet here was a sit Std th e could COUld by a single word depress or altogether al to ost deeprova.ost, flourishing schemes, and raise the _Wealth , s 'ell• Could ruin some and elevate others Let th em and all this by a single report in the GazEtte. h s . 11 9 t run away with the impression that there "'at u se : unustice in this, but yet where it was possible th ll o a h rd i e e r th el a ilf ,, ht , be injustice, it became their duty to 1 4; stiels naious eye the interests of the public. He Alin " a Board should consist of some sworn ter a the Crown, or of some responsible persons th e , "'y a ccountable to the country for the deci iritlvoleed.'sealne to, and for the justice of decisions which Slshould enormous amounts of property. Then Was be e " not be in a position to go, if they so chose, W as te n ?r • sell on the -- Stock Exchange. He ecidedly ofi • Pini on 14 , 1 41,41 s , therefore, that that shouldßoard .. consist e s irs, s ' 44 s ia high in rank and station—high in political O l d in the Parliament of the country. They th: f 110 a t r e l l s Pl s ace men too high or too respectable at moat 1 4 . -11 ° he would repeat his own conviction that tolve,_sesselgible would be the sworn advisers of the itlarcl his knear, hear.) But he (Lord Brougham) must '1 b eing to to prevent an unfavourable construe ing Place dthem.arguments must be se e i d stood up on His 1 1(44 „, °•PPISing gener . allse . or liefelt that , there sassnew th e urore respectable individuals than soms—and 'sate-of the persons sitting as members of that Cora ° knew Major-General Pasley well, the ise,3eribes did not know, 'but he took their characters as Lott subs by Ilia Noble Friend. Ile would just refer It which which had been alluded to by the Noble co l) Was said that one gentleman named O'Brien Iv °llltr tf ri r! e o fe • d with a Railway Company, and that an se4 said B rien Was a member of that Board, and it t a l llan on "at the first had speculated upon certain in the B A re r c e ss ived of the intended decisions of the Board. ori,tleeisio-,;''lol3SlE—The imputation was this, that f eet " B Af e " s given by the Board were revealed by one s ee . ferns given his brother. To that he gave a per ha " l a', an • kiss din addition he had to observe, that it Lor surd to Suppose Ik e d that it could be done. asset w as t`guGSIAM had no reason to doubt that at t e s tt ed that ° eese He understood that it had been h e ,p ti„„ Mr. O'Brien had been a purchaser of stock H e 'is'ts $r or about the time, but that was denied, and ch at m ad li o r d )ti ghani) was in consequence quite satisfied. s hado w of suspicion could exist against that si c lises tatee slut one advantage might result from the Co • It might attract the attention of her are metedy to savernment to the matter. It would not do teisi til s ea of h Y e ' " Oh, the persons constituting the Board s eilt eu deeisis:lol;ir. They would not divulge their in- P ublic r esult us. The amount of caution used to pre k"a at th e i of their deliberations being given to the ke:etbat th e ?Pr•per time, proved this, it' it proved no e information sought to be secured was of a ki"Lant nature, X• 55 s in of no re, and capable of being made . a 4 ho', "ler e s r c ocanson magnitude to the public. It be e, absolutely necessary that confidence • obs e hem -east rveu to prevent malversation, and that b er entire to should be placed in the it ' a t! confidence t 11 18 4ae lliati o a Board, in order to prevent fraud 'ek es duty ts n among the public. He had thought tle kre g e h e s -lllake these few observations on a ordinary ho excited the public interest in no er st ese setii _ _ tle ei Tery of LANSDOWNE, who was heard at clons of s ' ln ctlY, was understood to say that the ti n Elie Board of Trade were never considered Sses the 4t ine of Commons He thought the Board L e l a ee l b e tasculable advantage, as preventing persons r se: o 4ll ctio / Z ill b g in the which were - never likely to 11• 04 ,!, 1 an ins , 1 y the Imperial Parliament for that Is ere al, h e e should be inclined to support it. It aeh e Prei odi p e e s d, be shown that, however individuals qsi e kl es, the favour of their own plans and alto Os the3' would still be open to reason, and the de %V % e . 13 oltrd of Trade would therefore be emi knee bus . s slu destroying all such fallacious schemes sett l ee in ' o'sa: preventing a great waste of capital that oiseesrd STA,istiSeefully employed. esiislo nse ' ws letY said that as his experience in the ki souse "of a more recent date than that of the d Lord (Lord Brougham), perhaps he Whi ch be all e o a e e rne , to th e isz eitortdo hcadorrfeaeltiena , misa rehensiOn into n _ l hgls ilecl utres ° • ule becausenn PP if allowed to f le ,s ted : i t might create'an impression exceed s et e , on se •just tne character of the Government, and ied Loit The Noble and Learned Lord had th te a -e should at had move for a return of all the rail ofd Passed the HOUSO of Commons, and for tte,erventuredßoard of Trade connected with them, matterbadredto affirm that, in ninety-nine cases out t , the decision of the House had followed let a 4 eeis re e course the opinions of the Board of Trade. I` w '"Qly liked ,d e. 041E1 bein e-y that the opinions of the Legis accord with that of the Board of that, un he could assure nstatieehrt the Noble and Learned 14. Wab 1:1 ° one leptabeje-tiVters to Government upon touous influence the votes of the 4 tlZcl A " oui 1 the lower find, in thee;na' The Noble and Learned tet h aset a h4ever eallete,c4lfee3,oni v z o oj tig th o e n pray of cases, that even ?uovhernment had refrained alto o.ccasions, or, when they did alto ho LesenWere found 0 c its tit s ~r _ ed Lord Would certainly assign the claims of of a just reason why Members should ..,•kre t r e u laas ed c a ' . 2, their own on such subjects without ed the the njoevxerpressed opinions of the ' Board of ~, X 4,4 5• or of / oll 'abl t se heroes tlraelit The Board of Trade %e ms_ ligh t s e.before themto+ used' , as stated in the most 'e"x"elooliatahtioirn several supporters, without the eieateighttd, therefore's and cross-examinations of fore, decision they might come aiot i e s Y Of tf t - ,, v , e ,1 . Y fai,rlaym en as an evidence of the efli• Sri e ons e nd "" 130 ard the•. justness of their conch'. te l certas e d th_ aid mat it ,if it were so, it must be -44 not • W as of great public advantage. 1 11 , 04 .I,lji )I,...sultend to assert to their Lordships LlPO ss use /c o ‘rci never exercised any influence ttZtittltiiaellsedeei°efisesosnane_ ons. All he meant to say b is by that that Board were not looked • • ouse ; but surely Noble Lords lbest -the house would bat stul- , tify itself, if it gave no heed to decisions come to after minute labours and patient investigation. The Noble Marquis bad justly observed that the decisions of the Board were eminently calculated to prevent unne cessary expenditure on the part of those who supported these projects. His Noble Friend near him (Lord Dalhousie) had already stated the grounds on which *heir decisions were founded. It was very true indeed that if these decisions, through some inadvertence, were, if he might use the phrase, to ooze, they might give rise to fraud and speculation. His Noble and Learned Friend had spoken of the hardship to which parties were subjected by a rejection of their schemes by the Board of Trade; but his Noble and Learned Friend might not be aware that by a recent order of the other House an alteration had been made in the period at which parties might present their petitions, and, consequently, bring in their Bills. By this alteration parties would have the full benefit of time to consider how to make their case more perfect, and to those who might be induced to withdraw in consequence of the opinion expressed by the Committee of the Board of Trade, it would be the means of saving a vast expense both in that and in the lower House. Really useful schemes would be enabled, in consequence, to come before the House without any of that expensive and unprofitable litigation to which they hod formerly been subjected, while other parties who were unsuccessful in obtaining a decision in their favour, might wisely withdraw without burdening themselves with further unnecessary expenses. The Marquis of L ANSDOWNE did not know that the constitution of the Board compelled them to withhold their reasons for their decisions. It must be quite ob vious that they could not have come to their decisions without some reasons, and it would have been quite as easy for them to communicate their reasons as it was to communicate their decisions to the public, and both might have appeared at the same time. No doubt that what his Noble Friend had just stated was quite true with respect to that which had been recently adopted in the other House of Parliament ; but it had taken place, he believed, since the discussion which had occurred last year on the constitution of the Board. No doubt the effect of the existing management would be to prevent a large portion of the capital of the country from being wasted upon useless and hopeless speculation. The Earl of DALHOUSIE said, that as far as the Board were concerned, it was quite as easy for them to have submitted their reasons in detail at the time they published their decision, as at a future period ; but inas much as the existence of the Board depended on a reso lution of Parliament which called upon them to make the report of their reasons to Parliament, they believed that the course which they had adopted was the pro per one. The subject then dropped, and the House immediately adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 13. The SPEAKER took the chair at a Quarter to Four o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS. A nutnber of petitions were presented in favour of Private Bills. DUTY ON COALS. Mr. IT. lIINDE presented a petition from the Cham ber of Commerce of Newcastle•npon-Tyne praying for the repeal of the export duty on coals. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Mr. DARBY presented several petitions from various districts, complaining of the burdens which press on agri culturists, and praying fur immediate relief a) • EXCISE DUTY ON SOAP. Mr. MASTEIIMAN presented a petition from the City of London, signed by upwards of 1,500 persons, and praying for a revision of the Excise duty on soap. UNEQUAL TAXATION IN THE SCOTTISH THE SUN, LONDON, - FRIDAY MORNING, FRBRITARY 14, 1845. patent coffins for burying a hundred and twenty men a once. The last class in the service which he noticed was that of the gun-brigs, and of those a whole host had been introduced into the service, likely to excite a great deal of notice but calculated to be of little service. There was the Barker, the Bruizer, and number of others, which if taken together, would form a whole pack. But these were soon exploded, and, the ten-gun brigs were shortly after wards introduced for them. These again in their turn had last 'year been condemned by the shipwright's committee. The country had been put to an enor mous expense in their construction, and for their support, but they we re proved to be utterly unfit for the purpose for which they were intended. The Admiralty had indeed thrown away their own exertions and the money of the country in building bad ships, and when the American war broke out, and they might have looked forward to that event for many years, the Admiralty were utterly unable to contend with their adversaries. They had not indeed a single vessel of the same class fit to meet their corvettes, nor a single frigate capable of contending with their frigates. He (Sir C. Napier) well remem bered the report of that day, when a naval officer would have been scouted if he he had ventured to utter even a hint of the inability of British ships to contend success fully with American vessels of the same rating as their own, and notwithstandingall the warning they had received the Government of the day had never opened their eyes until they learned that three British frigates had been captured and conveyed into American ports.—(Hear.) What did they do then? The Admiralty immediately ordered six forty-gun frigates to be laid down ; but they were so constructed that they proved to be utterly useless, and they consequently had three on hand at the present moment, and they were likely still to retain them in the same unprofitable state. The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer at that time at the head of the Admiralty directed Sir It. Seppings to lay down a ship which should have such qualities as would obviate the defects which had been experienced. It was then considered that ships had not been built strong enough. With the assistance of Mr. Bright, Mr. Roberts, Mr. Lang, and several other shipwrights, much improvement had, no doubt, been effected. Ships had, for twenty years before, been built with stern galleries, and much that was calculated to overload and encumber them. These they altogether did away with, and introduced the plain round stern, which had now been generally adopted, and with admirable success. Another error com mitted by the shipwrights of those days was in the in troduction of heavy transome timbers. They had intro duced heavy diagonal timbers along the water-way, which quite overloaded the vessels, and were lit only for ships of far greater proportions than those into which they were placed. He commanded at that time a ship that was considered one of the finest in the navy, but when she was tried it was found that she could not stand on her legs. There was also the Caledonia, which was esteemed a first-rate ship, but when she was tried she was found almost use less, and she had to be put into dock and taken to pieces. All those errors at length became so evident that a change in the system of ship-building became necessary ; and, he must say, they owed many improvements in this particular to the Yacht Club.— (Hear, hear.) Those vessels which had been built under the Navy Board were constructed in such a manner that they would neither move, tack, or sheet. But at last the feeling of the public became so strong that the Admiralty and the Navy Boards were obliged to give way. Sir William Symonds was allowed to construct a ship, Captain Hayes was allowed to construct one, and Captain llendall built another. Those ships were the Sapphire, the Challenger, and the Acorn, and those frigates, with the Columbine, which was an 18-gun ship, the elf, and others, went to sea. The Sapphire and the Columbine were the best of those vessels, and the guns of the weather ship would go under the bottom of the leeward one, while the guns of the leeward ship would go over the truck of the weather one. He, in common with many other persons, wished to see the construction of their ves sels improved, and he wrote a letter on the subject on the Ist of October, 1827, to his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence, from which he begged leave to read an ex tract to the House. In that letter he stated that the naval service of the country would be much better con ducted if the Naval and Admiralty Board were amalga mated, and the whole placed under the controul of the Lord High Admiral. It was generally allowed that the Navy Board were the last to adopt any improvements; they disregarded the suggestions of others, believing that the whole wisdom of the navy was centred in themselves. For a naval officer to obtain a seat at the Naval Board, it was necessary that he should possess interest enough to get appointed to one of the foreign dockyards, and after moving about from one to another, he succeeded to one of the first vacancies at Somerset House. But he had so often expressed his opinion of how the Admi ralty was formed, that he `need not go into the auestion again. When the Right lion. Baronet 'came into office, he (Sir Charles Napier) followed up the letter he had just quoted by a pamphlet, addressed to Sir J. Cheate. The Right Honourable Baronet, as one of the first acts of his administration, broke up the Naval Board, and he highly approved of that step ; but he did not think so highly of the body which had been substituted for it. The consequence had been, the throwing of an immense quantity of work on the Ad miralty, particularly on the First Lord, to such an ex tent, that it was morally and physically impossible for any man to go through the duties of that office, so as to look into all the subjects of great importance that were brought before him every day of his life. It was not in the power of any man to do it. It was perfectly impos sible; and if they did not take some steps to change the system, they would continue to commit the errors which their predecessors had committed. The first thing the Right Hon. Baronet did in office, and for which he gave him great credit, was, after seeing the ability which Sir William Symonds had displayed, to give him an oppor tunity of building a larger ship. He had allowed him, and had taken the responsibility of allowing him, to jump from an eighteen-gunship to building a fifty-gun frigate. Sir William Symonds had been commissioned to build the Vernon, and she had answered perfectly well. When Sir William Symonds had built the Vernon, the Right Honourable Baronet commissioned him to build a larger ship. He thought the Right Hon. Baronet was not right in so doing, because Sir William Symonds had never been brought up in a dockyard, and could not be supposed to possess that practical knowledge of ship building which was necessary. After the Vernon was launched, very favourable reports were made of her qua lifications. The Captains who had sailed in her all reported favourably of her. After that, Sir William Symonds had built several 26-gun frigates, and several 16-gun brigs. All the captains who had sailed these vessels had reported favourably of them, and they had said that the brigs' more particularly were a great improvement upon the former 18-gun brigs. The next ship which Sir William Symonds had built was the Vanguard. Much had been said against that ship ; but be believed the ship was a good ship. He had an opportunity of seeing her tried in the Mediterranean. She bad been tried against the Powerful and the Ganges. He had seen her tried in a heavy gale against six ships of the line. It was at night, and he must admit that when daylight came the Vanguard was the most leeward ship. He was much surprised at that, but it could scarcely be con sidered a fair trial, because unforeseen circumstances might have occurred to occasion such a state of things; and they had had no opportunities subsequently of giving her a fair trial. But he was free to admit that the Vanguard was a good, efficient, and seaworthy ship. But when the model of the ship had been presented to the Admiralty, it was evident that their Lord ships had not sufficiently considered the subject. The Admiralty did not appear to have sufficiently con sidered the model of the Vanguard. As fitted out at the present moment, she would be set on fire in the very first hour of action. The Vanguard appeared on the Navy-list as an 80-gun ship, but she should be only reckoned as a 78-gun ship, as she lost two of her guns in the Mediterranean. The Gallant Officer condemned the construction of the Pique, as expensive, clumsy, and ineffective. On her voyage to the West Indies she la boured to such an extraordinary degree, that Captain Baxter, who was a passenger, told her captain that if she did not get up her runners and tackle, her course would be dangerous. Several vessels had been laid down on the model of the Pique, and six vessels had been laid down at an enormous expense. The Surveyor of the Navy had been allowed to build a three-deck ship, called the Queen, and in order to build the Queen the Royal Frederic was taken to pieces. Such was the eclat that attended the com pletion of this vessel that the Queen of England went to Brighton to see her. The Queen was sent to Malta, under the command of one of the oldest officers in the service, a man seventy-five years of age ; and in order that the Admiralty might form an opinion as to her sail ing powers the Formidable was sent out with her, and he (Sir Charles Napier) thought that a very wisp step. He had forgotten to say that, with the example of the Pique before their eyes, the Board of Admiralty laid down no fewer than six Queens—(Laughter)—and that he conceived was extremely blameable in them. — (Laughter.) He believed it to be the fact, nevertheless, and if he could get the papers he had asked for, he would be able to show the state those ships were now in. Well, the Queen went to Malta, and the Admiralty seemed to be satisfied with her sailing powers. Now, he would read the report of the Board of Admiralty, as to the sailing powers of the Queen; and here let him say that he could hardly believe, when he read it, that such a document could have emanated from the Board of Admiralty. The document was headed, " Character of the ship after nine months' trial." (Here the Hon. Member read a series of questions and answers from the report, which caused loud laughter throughout. Some of them were, " How does the Queen ride?" Answer, "Easy." " How does she carry her helm?" "Rather sly ?"—(Laughter.) " How does she wear her, stays ?" (Great l aug th er .) "I s s h e weatherly - or the contrary, as compared with other ships?"— (Continued laughter.) Answer, " Weatherly." " Does she lie-to easy ?" Answer, " Very easy."—(Laughter.) "Is she weak built or strong ?" Answer, " Very strong."—(Laughter.) Then followed a series of ques• tions on nautical points of every position almost in which a ship could be placed on a long voyage, to every one of which, the answer was, " Never tried," which caused a continuation of the laughter.) The Hon. Member then said he would come to another report of the Board of Admiralty, on another trial of the Queen, after twenty-two months. He then read the questions, the answers to which appeared to be of the same nature, many of which were " never tried in that way," which the Hon. and Gallant Member said, put him in mind of the grave-digger in Hamlet, when he had taken all:the coats and waistcoats off.—(Laughter.) Now, in order that it should not be said that he wanted to make " fish of one and flesh of another"—(Laugh ter) —he would read the report of an officer of, the navy one of the most clever and talented in the service. He had set out by praying the attention of the House to this question, for it was not one either of party or politics.— (Hear, hear.) Now, he would say, it was wrong for the Board of Admiralty to lay down six Queens — see why they were (Laughter)—he certainly could not proceeded with. Well, the Queen came home, was. sent into docks, and underwent an examination by the officers he had alluded to ; and the result was, that the Queen was a vessel that had been re presented in a manner calculated to ruin any ship. It appeared that the Queen steered so badly that she was obliged to have her foresail up and her mainsail set to keep her by the wind. She pitched in such a tre mendous manner that her middle-deck guns were in the water, and he understood that her rolling was of the same nature. He had before him the report of the gal lant officer commanding her, who could not tell how she would behave in Malta harbour—(Laughter)—and who seemed to have had much difficulty in picking up a gale of wind—(Laughter) —which could not be done on the coast of Portugal, in winter, but if he had extended his peregrination s as far as the the Westward Isles, he would have perhaps found no difficulty what ever. It appeared from the reports of this Gallant Officer, that the Queen found great difficulty in steering for want of sufficient power in her rudder, and that under low and easy sail she could not be well kept to tho wind. The Queen returned to port, and was finally paid off, at Sheerness, and was now in the Dockyard, at Chatham, to have her keel increased, her stern-post changeds, !her magazine altered, and other repairs. This was of course all done with the approval of the surveyor of the navy himself. Now, if this doctrine did not succeed in the case of the Queen, what was to be done? Were they to return to the system upon which they acted fifty-five years ago? Were they to go on building three -deckers and making them seventy-fours, building seventy-fours and making them frigates, building frigates and making them corvettes ?—(Hear.) If the Queen did not answer, it would puzzle the Admiralty to tell what to do with her? The only thing they could do was to follow the example of their predecessors in the case of the Boscawen. That ship was first of all laid down, in 1814, as a seventy-four gun ship ; in 1819, she was made an eighty-gun ship ; and, in 1834, after eight years' sailing, she was changed into a seventy-gun ship, upon the surveyor's present plan. He came next to the Albion. Sir R. Symonds, before he left the navy, laid down three ninety -two-gun ships, the Rodney, the Nile, and the London. The Rodney was dis patched to a distant station. She carried thirty-two pounders on her lower, main, and quarter-decks ; she measured 2.626 tons, and her hull cost 67,5501. That vessel, as he before observed, was commanded by Admiral Parker, than whom there was no better seaman. She was next commanded by Captain Mansell, who was an equally good officer, and after a careful examination she was approved by both. Take her as a sea boat or as a man-of-war, there was no better vessel,thoughof course she could not sail so fast as vessels of a smaller size. Though she carried five months' provisions, and stores for a year, and was considerably loaded, she car ried her lover deck several inches out of the water. She was as lively as any ship could be. When the late Lords of the Admiralty came into office, it was very natural that they should try to build ships on the new principle, which would be as good as those built on the old one; and, acecor dingly, the Albion was built, and commanded by Capt. Lockart, an excellent seaman. He believed that the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite approved of the Albion, and wrote a pamphlet in praise of the prin ciple upon which she was built. Well, when she was sent with the Caledonia on an experimental trip, he was informed that the Albion rolled in a dreadful manner, and that it was perfectly impossible to keep her lower port-holes open. There was an anecdote related of her which spoke volumes. When the captain came alongside the Caledonia and saw how quiet she was, compared to his own ship, he called out to the Captain of the Caledonia, and said (he would use his own words), " Damn my eyes, Jack, your ship's aground."—(Much laughter.) The Albion was a stiff ship, there was no doubt of it. If there were no other reason, the ;great breadth of her beam would be sufficient to ensure that quality. Her sails also were better set than those of the St. Vincent. If he understood the Gallant Officer aright, there was a serious disadvantage to which she was subject—an. ina bility to keep her lower ports open when the weather was rough. During the time she was in company with other three-deckers and those otherships of the squadron which had the whole of their ports open and their guns run out, the Albion was obliged to keep her lower ports closed. This was no slight disadvantage, for if the commanding officer had made a signal for the captain to open his lower ports and run out his guns, he must have been placed in this very unpleasant posi tion—that he must either have disregarded the signal, and so disobeyed his orders, or, by obeying them, have opened his ports, and by bringing them, through the sway of the ship, below the sur face of the water, have swamped the ship. He might, it is true, have made a report to the Admi ralty that he was unable to carry on with his lower ports open, but this would have been, after all, but mere talk, in which the country could take no interest, however much it might justify her captain for his conduct. But all the talk in the world was of no avail. Another order might indeed have been given, and as he saw an old sailor opposite to him—(Loud laughter, as the attention of the House was directed to the Solicitor-General)—there was some one who, beside the Gallant Friend to whom he had alluded, was able to judge of the propriety of the objection alleged against this ship, and see how impossible it was for the Captain of the Albion to obey either it or the signal of which he had previously spoken. One mode by which the true character of this ship might have been ascertained was by bringing her and the Queen into a hostile position with respect to each other. In fact, to get them engaged. He did not mean that they should fire shot at each other, but that they should fire as if they were in action, and then it would be seen which ship fired the fastest, and which kept up her firing the best. There was another objection to the Albion, if the report be true which had been made respecting her. The Rodney, which was a two-decker, carrying 92 guns, carried her lower deck seven feet six inches out of the water when at sea, and fully stored, while the Albion, with only three months' provisions on board, and with only a usual rate of stores, was only six feet nine and a half inches out of the water, if the level of the lower deck was to be taken as the guage. There were two ways by which this level was to be ascertained, for it would be recollected that the range of the outer port was three inches more than that of the same propor tionate parallel within. He alluded to the deck floor ing. The way in which a guage of the height of a ship out of the water was to be taken was by taking a batton and laying it on a level with the port, and to measure the distance between that and another batten laid along the level of the water. By this measurement it was ascertained that the height of the Albion could not be so high as six feet six inches, But, when sailing, the .Albion could not be so high as six feet six inches, for he found by the builder's report that this was the measurement which gave her height before she received her guns. She had, therefore, at that time, 120 guns to take in ; and he would leave the House to judge whether the addition of this weight would not decrease the height of her lower deck ports out of the water when she got to sea. He now came to the consideration of sailing ships in general. It appeared by the list which had been fur nished to him by the Admiralty, and which was now on the table of the House, that, since 1830, five 120- gun ships had been built, costing more than 3,000,0001. The Queen cost 83,0001., the Trafalgar 87,0001., the Royal William 76,0001., the Waterloo 72,0001., and the St. George 79,0001. From this it would be seen that, in proportion, the Queen was more expensive than any of them. The Rodney, of 2,626 tons, cost 67,550/. ; the Nile, of the same burden, 70,0001. ; the London, of 2,602 tons, 71,0001.; and the Albion, of ninety guns, and a tonnage of 3,110 tons, 89,341/. When entirely fitted up, the cost of the Albion would be immense. After marking the cost of the Vanguard, the Thunderer, and other vessels, the Gallant Commodore went on to say that, since 1830, there had been constructed six three deckers of 120 guns, five of 110 guns, four of 90, three of 84, four of 80, two of 70, three of 30, five of 36, four of 44, six of 26, together with seventeen 16-gun brigs. The whole cost of these, and other vessels, amounted to 1,668,460/. He had one other observation to make with respect to the Albion, which was, that when she came into port, having been only a year out, and but a short time at sea, her water waves and diminish ing plank were so open, that wood was obliged to be driven in between her seams before she was coppered, to such an extent that one hundred shipwrights and apprentices were at work on her in Plymouth Dock yard for seven days, which was equivalent to seven hundred men. He now came to a most impor tant question of naval construction, that of steam-boats. Up to 1831 they had only a few steamers of low tonnage, but in that year steam began to make a great progress, and the Government found it absolutely necessary to do something. At the time the Lord High Admiral was in office, he (Sir C. Napier) took it on himself to write him a letter on the subject, from which, if the House would permit him, be would quote. He said, as it was uncertain whether the various experiments then trying would succeed, he should recommend a vessel 30 feet wide, 150 long, and 18 deep. She ought not to be so fine as a man-of-war, nor to carry so much fuel. She should consume 22 tons of coals a day. The engines and the boilers should be secured against shocks. He recommended that the wheel should not be so broad as usual ; and though in that case the vessel would not go fast in the river Thames, it would, in rough weather, be under complete command. Now he (Sir C. Napier) had seen the Admiralty go on building, tor the last fifteen or sixteen years, steamboats without any bottom at all, and in which the engines and boilers were so exposed as to be entirely unfit for war. When the Right Hon Baronet came into office, he had, very much to his credit, taken up steam. When Sir Thos. Hardy got into the Admiralty, he naturally concluded that there would be no difficulty in carrying out his views, but he bad been disappointed, for the same system was continued. The building of the steam vessels had cost the country 359,585/. ; the fitting-up and machinery nearly the same amount. He did think that when they proceeded to lay out such an enormous sum, they should have paid the greatest possible attention to the construction of the vessels. All those imperfections of which he complained in the construction of man-of-war steamers, were attributable to the surveyors of the navy, for they had been built upon the principle applied to the construction of sailing vessels, without any consideration of the great difference that existed between the two classes of vessels. There was also some blame attachable to the engineers ; but he principally blamed the Board of Admiralty for not con sidering maturely the manner in which they should have their war steamers constructed ; and he h a d no hesitation whatever in saying, that not on e o f t h ose war steamers, after having cost all this money, was fit to take her place as a man-of-war, or had in her construction the smallest protection from an adversary. In fact, the engines and beams that worked the engines were so placed,' that the first shot fired into one of them from an enemy's ship, would destroy both boilers and engines, and blow her up. The beam that worked the engines was on the top of the cylinder, so that the first shot fired at it, would blow.up the ship. Whereas, if those war steamers bad been built of a sufficient depth, and dw th oo e urbk e t n sb g u i ruo n tu e t s lhd a atb n e d ei: b ryf o a i r l e e ns r ga s fi placed below th e water, t h e e n e ; e andr iin t i h f e the e n ß n o t a r r y d w o o f n i A l d d s m a iy rally had so ordered the con s t ruct i on of them, he had no it could be done. He also found that in the mode of taking in coals, those vessels were equally defective, and inconveniently contrived.—(Hear.) These observations, he begged it to be understood, applied to corvettes, which were commanded by commanders. He now came to an other class—namely, steam-frigates. The first he would mention was the Gorgon, which cost the country 28,0001. to construct ; yet she was 1,200 tons heavier than a 46- gun sailing vessel; she had no means of firing guns from her main-deck, so that if she should be chased by a supe rior vessel to-morrow, she had no means of using more than one gun to defend herself. When this vessel was put in the water it was found that she had this defect, and then, indeed, it was said that she was never intended to carry guns on her main deck. In answer to that, all he would say was, that if she was so in tended, she could not carry them; and if she was not, those who built her knew nothing about it.—(Hear and laughter.) Well, the Board of Admiralty, having seen their mistake in respect to this vessel, it was to be ex pected they would try to correct it in the next. But what was their next step? The next vessel they built was the Cyclops, which cost 27.0001. ; she, like the y Gorgon, gnkwo h ban, s a ht.a d e;s: nahnhd r eee i ls n n hnude g fe, aoe s obutfweer a el rdedi n a ntesdshgr not ea p oaaru o t tbsh r ul toacecsttwh, carry teere & nt rrdhybccpe. carry orhrrcrnftgeofrw. oaha.Cyclops rHsf main-Gorgon.—(Hear, deck muabnernieadg,sri t; ooht guns, nieh achraoe v . l caulkedr), e muab a t npenieac:di beautiful yet,l dfedaner f He had no hesitation in saying that if these vessels were properly constructed, they would be able to fight two guns at the head, two at the bow, two at the stern, and two in the quarters. The tonnage of the whole of these vessels was 12,872 tons, and the whole amount of cost was 290,0221. There was the Firebrand, of 1,190 tons ; the Gladiator, of 1,210 tons ; the Samson, of 1,299 tons ; the Scourge, of 1,190 tons—all of th em i n the same category with the steam corvettes that he had men tioned. Not one of them had any main-deck guns —not one of them had ports fit for stern guns. It was, he confessed, astonishing to him—he could not understand how it was possible, when the Board of Admiralty had plans and models laid before them of ships, whether men-of-war or steam-ships, that they could omit asking the constructor where were his bow guns, and where were his stern-guns. " I see your drawings and your models, but I do not see a single ship with two guns at its head or at its stern." He admitted they had two bow-ports, but he should like to see the man who could work them. It was almost, impossible to do so. Certainly it could not be done with efficiency. The last vessel constructed was the Retribution. She was an enormous vessel, of 1,641 tong, being nearly as large as their old line-of-battle ships. Now, would the House believe it—she was to carry only one gun on a pivot made for it. The necessity of carrying a few guns never entered into the heads of those who built her, and, instead ofcarrying her engines sufficiently low,she was even more exposed than smaller vessels. Her paddles plunged under water forty inches. She was without a single gun on her main deck or on her stern. He was perfectly assured that if she had been only 500 tons, she would have been better than she was at present. As to main deck ports, they were not even thought of, and she plunged most violently when she went to Chatham. He would now come to the last ship of all, the Terrible. which was built by Mr. Lang. She was a vessel of 1,840 tons, and was certainly the best steam-vessel in the navy. After commencing with sharp-bottomed ves sels, the Admiralty were obliged to listen to the remon strances which were made ; and the Surveyor of the Navy, who would not listen to any suggestions, instead of acknowledging at once that sharp bottoms were not fit for steamers, was gradually but slowly approaching to the flat-bottom system. But would the House believe that this large and superior vessel had only twelve guns on the main-deck—six before and six abaft; and though he admitted that they could put guns in her bows, it would be impossible for any person to work them. She had not a single stern gun on the main deck. He did not know the number of steam-vessels cn the stocks, or bow far advanced they were ; but whatever state they were in, it was much better to pull them to pieces than proceed with them in their present state. The money— the enormous sums of money—expended in building them, might as well be thrown to the winds. If they went to war, they would find that steam-boats were no more to the navy than cavalry were to the army. Two cavalry regiments might as well be sent against one an other for an afternoon's amusement, as two steam boats. Their proper use was harassing the enemy's rear, and how could they do that, when they had no guns to point at them ? He had seen them all with;his own eyes, and could speak of the manner in which they had been designed. The other use .for steam-boats was to cover a retreat. If a squadron were retreating, steam-boats would be found useful to cover its rear, and if steam-boats were sent in pursuit vessels of the same construction could best con tend with them, hut how could our steam-boats do so when they had no guns pointed to the stern. Sir G. COCKBURN—There are. Sir C. NAPIER—On the main-deck? Sir G. COCKSUAN—was silent. Sir C. NAPIER proceeded. He had been told he looked at the state of the navy with a jaundiced eye. Such was not the case. He stated broad facts, which, upon inquiry, would be found perfectly true. On the main -deck, he repeated, not one. —k Hear, hear.) Let the members of the House of Commons go down and view them, and they would at once see that the guns could not be effectually worked on the main -deck, and if they did not, after a careful inspection, agree with him, he would never again talk about the navy. He was sorry for having troubled the House at so much length, but felt it his duty to do so. All he asked for was a Committee.—( Hear. ) Had they succeeded in their mode of ship-building ? If not, it should be changed, and the best ascertained and acted upon ; if they had, why let it be continued. He preferred asking for a Commission to inquire into the whole system of naval con struction. But gentlemen better acquainted with the rules and customs of the House were of opinion that this was the more eligible mode, as by making it a money question he had more hance of obtaining a Committee. He did not care whether it was a Committee or a Commission —they were now going to build a large number of steam-boats, and he asked the House not to grant one shilling until the con dition of the steam navy (was fully and thoroughly inquired into. He knew this was not a very palatable subject, though from the manner in which the House had heard him, he had no reason to think so ; but a sense of duty compelled him to speak out the whole truth as he found it. He felt satisfied that if the public press had not taken up the question of the state of the navy in the manner it had done, it would have been use less for him to have attempted to bring the matter forward. During the last twenty years, he had repeatedly called the at tention of those in power to the subject ; in fact, he had a large book full of correspondence, but up to the present momen the had never been able to get them to listen to a single suggestion he had made.—(Hear, hear.) He had met with the greatest courtesy from the Gallant Officer opposite. He had no party feeling on this subject.—( Hear, hear.) He never introduced his politics into naval inquiries—he was only guided by a sense of what was due to the public, and only hoped to have the public money advantageously expended. The House ought to grant this Committee. He thought they were bound, out of regard for the members of the present naval administration, and for their predecessors, and in justice to the Surveyor of the Navy, and to the First Lord of the Admiralty, to accede to his mo. u. prove t hen b e The seen he whether G a llant would Commodore ou mn they dmeor had aokr ee t sat down amid much cheering, having again thanked the House .) for the attention they had given him, and read the motion, or nlht Befor e a d stated. aw o uldC o mm i t t e e which was as follows :—" A Select Committee to inquire into lion. —( been (libel led e H ear,ver y h thing eaort h e the manner in which the money voted since the year 1835 for the construction of ships has been expended, and if the ships constructed are an improvement of the old system." Mr. HUME seconded the motion. The Hon. and Gallant Officer had challenged inquiry—he (Mr. Hume) thought he was entitled to it. He thought the country would not feel satisfied unless a full and searching inquiry were made. He did not think, however, the present time was as proper for inquiry as on a previous occasion, when those great changes in the naval condition of the country were made. He thought the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had a great deal to answer for. On the 29th of June, 1832, the Right Hon. Baronet used an expression which had often been quoted, and which was still fresh in his (Mr. Hume's) memory. He said that naval cap tains were more competent to fill the office of surveyors of the navy than any other men, as much as to say that science was of no use in the construction of ships. The present question was one of the greatest importance in a national point of view. The greatest commercial country in the world should have the most powerful and effective engines at sea. England was then, and had always been, very backward in the application of science to ship-building. So defective was: the construetion of ships during the war, that we were obliged to imitate the construction of those French, Spanish, and even Swedish and Danish vessels, which we captured. Surely it was the British who should have set the example in ship-building, seeing that not only our maritime and commer cial greatness depended upon our naval superiority, but even our safety.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon, Gentleman then quoted from the Tbird Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the affairs of the navy, which stated that naval architecture had advanced to greater perfection, and been more cherished among the French than among any other people ; that little attention was paid to it in this country ; and that the French employed men of the greatest talent and ability in the construction of ships, whilst we contented ourselves with creep ing on in the dark,,in quest of such discoveries as chance might throw in our way. In consequence of the recommendation of a Committee, a school for naval architecture was established, but, in 1832, the First Lord of the Admiralty abolished the system, and the greatest injustice had been done to the mem bers of it, who were never allowed to fill those stations which it was originally intended they should fill, and for which their abilities qualified them. They had been taught algebra, trigonometry, Auctions, the calculus, and, in short, the whole system of mathematics, and were to have entered the most subordinate offices in the navy, rising gradually to higher offices as they merited. Such men would have been acquainted not only with the whole system of naval tactics, but would have been able to suggest improvements founded upon their scientific and practical knowledge.—( Hear, hear. ) A great deal of money had been thrown away in remodelling old ships—it would have been much cheaper to have built new ones, than continually tinkering with those built upon an en tirely different construction. He first thought the Commission preferable, he would most willingly assent to it, but he would at all events second with much pleasure the motion of the Hon. and Gallant Commodore. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said his Gallant Friend op posite had begun his statement by going so far back as the year 1806. Now it was not his ( Sir G. Cockburn's) intention to follow him through the whole of that statement, nor would he be able to do so if he were inclined, neither would be seek to defend certain defects in vessels to which he had alluded. But this he would beg of the Gallant Officer and the House to remem ber, that during a great portion of the time of which the Gallant Officer had been speaking, the art of ship-building was by no means so perfect as it had become of late.—( Hear, hear.) He could not deny that the class of vessels which the Gallant Officer had found fault with, were of a very bad description. Forty-gun brigs had since been deemed unworthy ; they had become bad by reason of the dry rot having got into them, and many of them had been ordered to be cut down, and were found to have made very excellent frigates. Whether this was a prudent course or not, he would not pretend to say, but when it was done there was nothing to pr event the authorities of that day from taking that course. He would now come to the charges which had been made against the Admiralty Board, and he would wish to draw the attention of the House to the first of those charges that applied to the present Board, be cause he did not feel that he was bound to defend the acts of that Board before ho and his colleagues came into office.— (Hear, hear.) He would begin, then, with the period when he did come into office, and he would premise by requesting of the House to consider the position in which he and his col. leagues were placed at that time, in reference to the Navy Board, and particularly in reference to their position with Sir William Symonds. —( Hear, hear.) Every one was aware of the feeling that existed in regard to that gentleman ; and, therefore, if the first act of the new Board was to stop all the ships then in course of building under the direction of Sir William Symonds, would it not be said that he had not been treated as he deserved.--( Hear.) Many of the most excellent and valued officers in the navy considered that that officer had done the navy and the service very great benefit.--( Hear. ) But the Gallant Officer opposite and the House should recollect that when he ( Sir G. C.) came into office, the Queen, with which the Gallant Officer had found so much fault, was in pro gress of being built, and when she was completed, the Admi ralty Board sent her to sea, in order to try her power.— ( Hear.) She went to the Mediterranean ; and the next the Board heard of her was, that she was a very excellent ship, and that she had the advantage of all the other vess e l s o f t h e same class, ex cep t the Vanguard. That vessel had also been ordered by Sir William Symonds; and he ( Sir G. C.) would ask, would it have been just in the Board when they came in to have stopped her ?—( Hear.) But here let him say, in defence of the present Admiralty, that when they did come in, they re solved not to build any more until those in progress should have been completed and tried—( Hear)—and when they had heard of the sort of vessel the Albion was, they stopped the further building of all the others.---( Hear.) When he ( Sir G. C.) came into office, the Admiralty Board, without mean ' ing the slightest disrespect to Sir W. Symonds, or to question his merits in the least, resolved to form a committee of all the most talented masters of ships, to whom they gave directions to report to them upon the best mode of arming the sterns and prows of those vessels.—( Hear. ) That report was made, and laid before the Surveyor-General of the Board, and he cer tainly did differ from much that it contained.—( Hear.) With regard to the Queen being so defe tive as the Gallant Officer opposite had stated, he (Sir G. C.) begged to say that the rea son she was put into dock and altered was, because the surveyor had stated that the reason she was so defective was because she required those alterations, and, therefore, she got them. In the meantime the Admiralty Board did the best they could to remedy any other defective vessels, and with this view they had selected three of the best naval architects they could find to examine all the other vessels said to be defective, to report upon their faults, and to take care that those faults should be avoided in all future vessels.—(Hear, hear.) He did not mean to say that the officers employed by the present Board of Admiralty were superior to those they had succeeded, aad it was but fair of him to say that Sir W. Symonds was inferior to none of them.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Sir G. Cockburn) should, at the same time, say that Mr. White had shown very superior qualifications in his office, and had done one of the most extraordinary feats in improving a vessel, that, perhaps, had ever been heard of. The Board had picked out a 42-gun ship, and cut off her bows, and Mr. White was employed to put new bows to her, and in this he had succeeded so well, that the vessel, upon being sent out on trial, performed her voyage without lettin g in any water, w hi c h was a very desirable perfection.—( Hear, hoar.) Again, he would say, that the Board deserved credit for not doing anything likely to wound the feelings of Sir W. Symonds, by being in too great a hurry to upset the works they found going on when they came into office.—(Hear, hear.) In the meantime, if the Admiralty should find that defects existed in the Albion and the Queen, and the other vessels on the stocks, care would be taken that they should be made good ships of.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to what had been said by an Hon. Member, in reference to shipwrights' apprenticeship, the Board had resolved to pay every attention to that subject also. It had been observed that the whole of this subject ought to be referred to a Committee of the House of Commons. Now, he begged to say, that his impression was, that such a Committee would be the very worst authority to which such a subject could he referred. He could assure the Gallant Officer and the House that the Admiralty Board would take up the subject, and bestow upon it all tho attention in their power, and devote their best energies towards remedy. in , all defects ; and if they were found t o b e i ncompetent to do so, then it would be their duty to resign their office to the Gallant Officer opposite, or to any one else whom the House and the country might deem better fitted to discharge their duties.—( Hear, hear.) Then, with regard to what had been said by the Gallant Officer about sailing-ships ; the Gal lant Officer could not be more anxious to avoid defects in those vessels also, than the Navy Board ; but to those vessels also the same observations applied as to the steam-vessels, namely, that most of them had been contracted for before the present Board came into office.—( Hear, hear.) The present Board had no intention to put guns on the main-deck of war steamers, for if they were fitted up with guns, it would ma terially retard their progress. His impression was that those vessels should have their guns so disposed of as to enable them, when they took their stations, to fire upon the enemy with perfect impunity.--( Hear.) He did not approve of putting too many guns in those vessels, for it was of vast importance that they should be kept at their proper work.—( Hear, hear.) The Admiralty were now en gaged in building some iron vessels, and they had made it a sine qua non with the contractors, that each of these vessels should have the power of firing two guns on her main.deck forward, and two aft.—( Hear, hear.) He did not know that it would be necessary for him to detain the House any longer; but, in conclusion, he would say that he knew what the strength of the French navy was, and he knew what that of England was, and he was happy to be in a position to state that the naval force of England was much better and larger than that of France, notwithstanding all that had been said to the contrary. —( Hear, hear. ) Captain ROUS conceived that the navy and the country were greatly indebted to the Hon. and Gallant Member who had introduced this subject to the House.--( Hear, hear. ) He would also admit that the Han. Baronet on the Treasury Bench had done good service to the country by upsetting the Royal Naval College.—(Hear, hear.) As to what had been said about vessels built with round sterns, there appeared to have been at one time a mania for constituting vessels in that way, and millions of money were thus expended, and it could not have been more uselessly employed. He had commanded a corvette, and other vessels, so built, and he could say that not a vessel in the service with a round stern could fire a stern gun, because the muzzle of the gun could never be brought sufficiently close to the port. —( Hear, hear.) And yet he felt satisfied that nearly one eighth of the national debt had been incurred by building vessels on this defective plan.—( Hear, hear.) Yet the same bad system was going on, and the result would be that those vessels never could go to sea.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member next alluded to abuses existing in the practices of the dock-yard officers; for when the Admiralty Board ordered a report of the defects of a vessel, a sum nearly double that ne cessary was always set forth in the report as that re quisite for the purpose, and the Admiralty had no possible means of knowing whether it was too much or too little. He merely mentioned these facts, because he thought no surveyor ought to be allowed to build models until they had been certified by a scientific man.--( Hear, hear.) Premiums should be given to the gentleman who produced the best model, and the field for supplying them thrown open to competition. If they wanted to build steamers, let them go to the builder of the Great Britain, or Mr. Napier, and not confine themselves to gentlemen brought up in the royal dockyards, whose educa tion was generally very circumscribed. He had commanded every species of brig-corvette, and ho could say, without fear of contradiction, that none of them were fit to go to sea. They might be splendid vessels, but really he never could discover any remarkable beauty about them. What he had been saying for the last ten or twelve years, he was still compelled to repeat, be it ever so tedious or unpleasant. He had remarked, and every other good seaman who went before him had done the same, that Sir William Symonds' ships were total failures. His first vessel was the Flying Fish, and everybody connected with the navy was aware of its utter inefficiency for hard ser vice, or, in fact, service of any sort. Their three-deckers were failures, solely because they made them without flat floors. Yet the Admiralty still persisted in building them without this appendage, an act of which he had often heard it said, no man in his sober senses would be guilty. Sir William Symonds' first frigate, he admitted, was a magnificent ship. She had some remarkably fine points about her, but she was exceedingly sharp in the water, and in many other respects defective. But perhaps some of Sir Wm. Symonds' friends would say he had introduced improve merits of late. Now, he weseaprepared to assert that the Snake, which he built a short time back, was equally as bad a ship-- having the same defects as the Flying Fish, which he built so far back as ten years ago. He was conscious of the defects in these ships when he held a post in her Majesty's service, but it would have been a source of great annoyance as well as incon venience to him if he had ventured to speak his mind upon the subject then. The Admiralty appeared to look upon a confes sion of this sort as a personal reflection upon them, and this de terred many of her Majesty's officers from speaking their minds on the subject. They were identified with Sir William Symonds, and no doubt had determined to sink or swim with him. Ten years had however elapsed, since the time he spoke of, but little or no change had taken place. Certainly, the Administration had changed,but their successors had unfortunately been upwards of three years making up their minds as to the merits of one of Sir William Symonds' frigates. They had been all this while endeavouring to discover if she was a fast vessel, and yet they had not come to any decision. But the cause of this was plain enough. If, when he was in the service, he had been sent out to Malta with a s hi p , w i t h specific orders to report upon her sailing upon a magnificent breeze, what would have become of him if he had reported unfavourably? IVhy, he would have been plain Mr. Rous at this moment, instead of Captain Rous.—(Laughter.) Sir William Symonds' ships had, from this very reason, been described as superior vessels in every respect. He did not wish to be understood as finding fault with Sir W. Symonds, because he was quite aware that it was by the direction of the Admiralty that he expended millions in the building of these defective ships. Nor was it his fault that the vessels were defective. lie was not brought up to the profession of a ship-builder, and was by no means a scientific man. But why could not the Admiralty decide at once upon the merits of the Queen? The answer he had was, "there is no wind." " What, no wind ?" At one time he was sure it was plentiful, but now they had a difficulty of finding a good breeze between the West Indies and Lisbon.— ( Laughter.) It really was too bad. Here had they been three years trying this model, anti still they had not come to a decision, nor were they likely to arrive at any in another three years. He was as anxious as any one to know the truth, and he was confident, if they would give proper directions, a gale of wind would very soon be found.--( Hear, hear, and laughter.) With respect to the future, what the Admiralty wanted, was an active man like Sir W. Symonds, for he certainly was an active man, to in spect what was going on in the dockyards.—( Hear, hear. ) This would put an end to the present waste and lavish ex penditure. Sir William Symonds would be a useful man to them in this way, but if they allowed him to lay down his lines and build ships upon them, the defects complained of would never be rem e di e d. L e t him lay down other men's lines if they would, and then there would be a pos sibility of his building an efficient seaworthy vessel. He had little more to remark, but, at all events, whether the Hon. and Gallant Commodore succeeded with his motion or not, he was sure it would be productiveo r f e great public benefit.—( Hea r , h ear .) H e would expee t e d_i_toug e than his. receive more support from the other side of the H There was much more public spirit on the O ppo s ition r tho navy had always look ( d upon them as n that and House. lf, in his warmth, ho had feelingsgiven their of any member utterance to any expression calculated to hurt the h e could only express his regret for it. of the Board of Admiralty , atliora _. y took a great interest the service, because he would not coun t enanc e the principle e n left which had guided the Board, and h e need hardly say he still felt as deeply on the matter. Mr. C. WOOD did not think this discussion would be productive of any great advantage to th e navy, nor an inquiry would p ro d uce those beneficial results he believe results which some Hon. and Gallant Members seemed to anticipate. He must say the subj ect was so en tangled with technicalities that it was quite i mposs ib le for the House to comprehend it. It would be quite unintelligible to most Hon. Members, and for this reason, he could not agree to the motion. But the Hon. and Gallant Commodore had advanced little or nothing to justify an inquiry being insti tuted. The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman related the ex perience he had had since 1800 down to 1830, and he con demned every class of vessels but the 120 gun-ships as being utterly useless. The 74 and the 154-gun ships he pronounced were useless; the 36 and 28-gun frigates were little better. The 18-gun brigs and 16-gun sloops were defective, and, in fact, he condemned them all down to the ten-gun sloops. But the whole and sole object of the attack was Sir William Symonds, and of course the eight or nine classes of vessels built by that gentleman were all :defective. One Hon. Gentleman, how ever, admitted that the Vernon answered perfectly well, and the twenty-six-gen ships and sixteen-gun brigs were ex ceedingly beautiful. All the ships which had been built on Sir William Symonds' principle, since le+3s, bad been uni- venally approved by the officers of the navy. The Hon. and Gallant Officer (Sir C. Napier) had himself admitted that there was a considerable difference between the bow of Sir William Symonds' last ship and that of his first. Why, this at least proved that he was ready to adopt any improvements which were calculated to benefit the service.—( Hear.) With regard to the Queen, the Hon. and Gallant Officer said that six Queens were laid down by order of the late Board of Admiralty. He did not think that statement was quite borne out. This vessel was launched in 1639; and for the fi rs t three years all the r e p or t s w i t h regar d to her were extremely favourable. The Hon. and Gallant Officer bad made many assertions on the subject ; whether he was warranted er not in his assertions, he could not say; but the official documents were so much in favour of the Queen, that four other vessels of the same character had been laid down, and though they had since been stopped, he maintained that the documents justified the Board in the course which they pursued. With regard to the Albion, although the Hon. and Gallant Officer said that she was not able to fire her guns, the report stated that she was a very stiff ship and sailed better than any other in the squadron.--( Hear, hear.) The fifty-gun frigate, the twenty-six-gnu frigate, and the eighty-gun ship had each received favourable testimony from the Hon. and Gallant officer himself ; and he had read a most favourable report of the 110-gun ship and the 90-gun ship whilst in the Mediterranean. Each class had, in fact, received his ap proval. Yet, after condemding universally every class of ships built before 1835, he now called on the House to condemn the Board of Admiralty for their conduct with respect to ships whose mode of construction had received from him the most favourable testimony which it was possible for ships to receive. —( Hear, hear.) With respect to the question of expense, it certainly appeared to be established that a clear saving had been effected. He really did not know on what earthly ground the motion was to be sup ported. With regard to the steamers he would only re mark that at the time when he (Mr. C. Wood) left the Admiralty, all the steamers constructed were more or less experimental. He did not think, in fact, that it was possible at present for any person to give a clear and decided opinion either as to the effect which steam navigation would have, or the best mode of arming and constructing steam-vessels.— ( Hear.) Some time must elapse before any opinion could be formed. The whole system of steam navigation was in a course of experiment ; and feeling confident that no effort would be spared by the Board of Admiralty to do all that was necessary for the safety and security of the country in any future war, he would willingly leave the question in their hands. Admiral BOWLES said he should not have risen but for the allusion made to himself by the Hon. and Gallant Officer who had introduced this subject, and also by the Hon. and Gal lant Member for Westminster. The complaint made against him by these two Hon. Members was, that he did not find a gale of wind, or stay out to meet it. That he did not find it, was certainly not his own fault.—( Laughter.) sVhy he should stay out at the risk of injuring valuable masts and in curring a damage of several thousand pounds, merely to have bad weather, he could not possibly conceive.—( Hear, hear. ) He was surprised to hear old sailors talk in such a manner. With regard to the Albion, he must say that he believed when at sea she would not be found to roll more than other ships of the same class.—( Hear, hear.) As to her not fight ing her guns when other ships would do so, he believed that any apprehension on that subject would turn out to be un founded. As far as it was safe to hazard an opinion with re spect to the Queen, he would state that it was his conviction, that when tried again, after a few alterations, she would be found a safe and fast-sailing vessel. He could not conclude without taking that opportunity of reminding the House what a debt of gratitude they owed to the members of the Yacht Club, who, having devoted themselves to the truly British amusement of yacht sailing, had, from their position and influence, exercised a very beneficial influence upon the improvement of naval architecture. Two amongst those gentlemen deserved special honour and respect. One of them was Lord Vernon, who unhappily had not survived to witness the benefit of those improvements to which he had so greatly contributed ; the other was the Duke of Portland.----( Hear, hear.) Before Sir William Symonds was allowed to build his first ship, the Columbine, Lord Vernon actually gave his personal guarantee to the Admiralty that in the event of failure he would defray the whole expense. He thought that such persons were well entitled to the gratitude of the whole country. With resp ect to Si r Willi am Symonds, he believed that the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department never did greater service to the country than by appointing him to the office which he ao wor thily filled; and with whatever calumnies and misrepresentations he might be assailed, he felt convinced when Sir W. Symonds retired from office, he would have the proud satisfaction of knowing that he had contributed, perhaps, more than any other officer in the British navy, to the improvement of that branch of the public service.—( Cheers. ) Capt. PECHELL said that, however good the construction of the ships might be, still there was reason to complain of the mode in which they were tried. He fully concurred in the praise accorded to Sir Wm. Symonds ; but that was altogether a different question from the one raised by his Honourable and Gallant Friend. He could not help complaining that when a ship of the old construction had been im proved in her bow, and made a most valuable vessel, in the last year, she was sent to the Gallant Admiral then in command on the Irish station, and for nine months she lay in the Shannon, to assist in the collection of the poor-rates.— ( Laughter.) He had observed the experiment with greatanx. iety, and the result was that he was convinced of the efficiency of the Rattler. He hoped that, whatever determination the Government came to with respect to the employment of the Archimedian screw, and the ordinary paddles, they would look carefully to the experiments that had been made. Mr. CURRIE said the Government had looked with great anxiety to all the experiments, and they were desirous of adapting, to the naval service of the coun try, the machinery which would be most effective. During the three years in which the present Government had held office they had done everything in their power to pro mote improvements in this department of the public service. In the very case of the Vanguard it was quite evident that they were not disposed to deal hastily or rashly. He agreed with the Hon. and Gallant Member that the Vanguard had borne out the expectations which had been entertained of her. Capt. HARRIS thought it was his duty, as a member of the naval profession, to thank the Gallant Commodore for having brought this subject under the consideration of the House. A good deal had been said about the building of ships, but it was much easier to point out objections than to show how they were to be built. He did not think the Gallant Commodore would gain the object he had in view, even if his motion were carried ; but he was of opinion that there ought to be some in quiry into the subject, and that a Commission should be ap pointed.—( Hear, hear.) He did not think that the Admiralty could give, with the other duties they had to perform, sufficient attention to the subject. He approved of a great deal of what Sir Wm. Symonds had done, though he had failed in some things. With regard to the armament of frigates, he thought it was a fault not to suit the weight of metal to the quantity of timber. For instance, there were the Winchester, and the Pique, two frigates now in commission. The former was of 1,636 tons, and had thirty-six guns of 32-pounders. The latter was of 1,436 tons, being 200 less than the other, and she carried 52 guns of a smaller calibre, and any person, upon referring to the naval history of the country, would see that where the number of guns and their weight were proper tioned to the timber of the vessel, she was more effective than when that proportion was not kept up. The same was observ able with regard to the Carnatic and the Belvidere. The former was a 26-gun ship of 32-pounders, and of 900 tons ; the latter carried 42 guns, making a difference of 16 guns, while there was only a difference of 35 in the tonnage. He looked with satisfaction to the efforts which were now making to increase the naval force and steam navigation of the country. Mr. WAKLEY said that the House ought to be indebted to his Hon. and Gallant Friend for bringing this motion before the House. He was entitled to its gratitude, and whether he failed or not, his labours en this question would entitle hiM to, and he would receive the gratitude of, the publics That anti ject had been discussed almost ever since he had a seat in th e House, and it was always made a sham question by official persons on both sides of the House. It was now time that the subject should be seriously considered, for it was one in which the public took the greatest possible interest. The navy was the favourite service of the people of England, and no man would refuse his share of any reasonable expenses to keep it in an efficient state. His Hon. and Gallant Friend had shown, in his own and peculiar language, that several ships had been seriously damaged, but there was one vessel, called The Admiralty,"—(Laughter) —which he did not believe would recover from the damage it had received on this occa sion, unless those who manned it made inquiries how so Much money had been wasted in building ships which were declared to be not fit for service. Wbat had been said by the Hon. and Gallant Member for Westminster had perfectly astonished him. He said that ships had been built in the dock-yards, which cost a tenth—he said it first, and then an eighth —of the national debt, in building ships which had never gone to Sea, and were never fit to go to sea. Ho said that that statement perfectly astonished him, coming as it did from the Hon. and Gallant Captain, who had rendered such great services to 'his country—whose name would be respected wherever it was known—who always spoke his mind freely, and said what he thought on every subject to which he gave his attention. The allegations and arguments he put forward would make their impression out of doors, whatever might be their effect in that House; but he ( Mr. Wakley) was one of those who thought that the appointment of a Committee was not suitable to the emergency. He did nut think that it would lead to any prac tical result, for there were none in that House who understbod the subject except naval officers, and they, perhaps, would be jealous of each other, and there might be a powerful firing of broadsides on each side of the table if they alone were to compose the Committee. The Hon. and Gallant Captain said he did not believe the Lords of the Admiralty would know one ship from another, or scarcely a three-decker from a New castle collier.—(Laughter.) If that were the case with respect to Lords of the Admiralty, how much worse with those who had no connexion with naval matters. The Hon. Gen tleman the Secretary to the Admiralty, who had been pro moted from a Lord to a Secretary, had sought permission which he could not very well understand, to have those things left with them. Why these things had been left to the Admiralty long enough. The Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Halifax, got up and spoke in defence of the existing Board. Why, to be sure he did. He had been Secretary to the Admiralty himself. There was always an understanding between the officia l ins and outs.-- (Laughter.) He did not mean to fay that there was any re gular compact between them, but the thing was underst oo d. e understood This subject was too important to be understood to be g u t r id of in this way, after the statement made by officers who had ob tained so the glory o would require a full, a complete, a n d a searching mufch this renown, country. and The Hon. and Gallant Captai n h a d alluded to whose the o h s e e n na m s werepublic identical the experiments made by the vessels built un d er Sir William subject,Sym on s t, ey investigation.but he omitted to remark that the vessels which he built, and were put uponitheir trial, had not their full comple ment of stores and water, so that th e vessels did not draw 'se t steamers,i rst Lord and of the h e much water as if they had their f u ll complement, and, there fore Admiralty, the experiment addressed thewasHouse no o tc e ornp walhet regard a r heard, for the first time, that they were to give such enormous sums for building steam-vessels which were only to carr y three or four guns, tw o in ',their bo ws an d two in their stern. lirte that to be the case ? Why, supposing such steamers were to encounter those that had broadsid e s a n d the condition of their steamers?—( Hear.) Such was the idea which this country had of war-steamers. He had heard a naval officer state that the application of steam to ships would change the whole naval tactics of this country. The Hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House had laid great stress on what had been said by a foreign Admiral. Why, was it not natural that he should wish to increase the naval power of his own country ? It was of course his object to make the naval power of this country appear as small as possible.— ( Laughter, and cries of " No, no.") He looked through the large end of the telescope, and saw our navy as small as he could.—(Laughter.) Yes, he looked through the large end of the telescope, and saw the nary of tide country under the smallest aspect possible.—( Laughter, and cries of " That is not what you mean.") He looked through the large end, and saw our navy as small as he could.—( Continued laughter, and cries of " Try back.") He begged pardon; Hon. Gentlemen were right, and he was wrong. What he meant to say was, that the foreign officer saw the navy of this country in its re al magnitude; his own:but he misrepresented its power in country. He represented it as . much as poss. making it appear larger than it really . was, - 11 5 - to induce his own country to exhibit a ll their national to compete with make exertions so a 5 energy—te this country is. the time of war.but Now, he could place no re- , it was the duty, the especial, duty of Englishmen, fiance on sueli-a•statetrne l n oo 4 k to that force, which must bejtheie ec urity and the grea t o pillar of their protection. —( Hear, heir.) BURGHS Mr. AU ME presented a petition from the royal burgh of Forfar, in Scotland, complaining that, by the existin g law, the property in the burgh was un equally taxed, as compared with the counties ; and it prayed for an inquiry into the subject, with a view of providing a remedy. CASE OF MR. GORDON. Mr. HUME also presented a petition from an individ ual named Gordon, who had resided in India, but had been deported thence by order of the Governor-General, for some alleged misconduct. He (Mr. Hume), had presented a petition from the same person ten years ago, and he then prayed for an inquiry into the circumstances of his case, but such inquiry had not. been instituted up to the present hour. He prayed, therefore, that the earliest opportuity would be taken to do so, BEER SHOPS IN LANCASHIRE. Mr. 0. STANLEY presented a petition from Lanca shire, against the extension of beer shops in that county. RAILWAYS. Mr. ENTWISLE begged to give notice that, upon the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lan caster bringing up his report upon the best. mode of forming railway Committ ees , h e would move that any person having any interest, direct or indirect, in railways or railway companies, shall be excused from serving on such Committees. GAME-LAWS. Mr. JOHN BRIGHT gave notice that he wotild,ppon ,his day fortnight move for a repeal of the game 7 lg,,ws. RAILWAYS. Mr. WALLACE begged to give notice that, upon the bringing up of the Railway Committe9s' Report by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, he would move for the adoption of certain resolutions regulating the size, construction, and charges of the different railway carriages. . _ NAVY ESTIMATES. Captain PEC HELL said that, upon her Majesty's Miuisters submitting the Navy Estimates to the House, he would move that the House do take into consideration the claims of Captain Clarkson. WINDOW-TAX. The IloN. MEMBER also gave notice that he would, on Tuesday next, move for certain returns relative to the modes of assessment of the window-tax. RAILWAY COMMITTEES' BILL, Mr. WALLACE begged leave to ask the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of theibuchy of Lancaster, whether it was true that there were on the present Railway Com mittee many persons who were interested, more or less, in railway speculations ? Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET, in answer to the Hon. Member opposite, begged to say that he would at once admit that there were such persons on the Committee ; but it did not appear to him that much serious objection could arise from that circumstance ; for this reason, that one object of the Committee was, to see that the pro jected lines brought under the consideration of the House had fair play; and he really thought that they would not have fair play unless the parties, who were placed is the situation referred to by the Hon. Member, constituted a part of the Committee. Mr. WALLACE said, having laid the facts before le House, he felt that he had discharged his duty. PRIVILEGE. The order of the day for the consideration of the statement of the Sergeant-at-Arms having been read, The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that, in calling , the attention of the House to the position of the Ser geant-at-Arms, relative to certain proceedings which had been instituted against him, he was induced to think that there would be no opposition offered to the mo tion of which he had given notice ; and he was therefore not disposed to trespass upon the House with any statement of the case. He would propose, therefore, that the House should on that occasion adopt the course which was taken in 1843, when a similar ac- tion was brought against the Sergeant-at-Arms. The House had then, upon the motion of his Honour able and Learned Friend, the present Attorney-Ge neral, decided on giving leave to the Sergeant-at- Arms to appear, and plead to the action. A plea had been put on the record, to which there was a demurrer. That demurrer had been argued, and was now standing for the judgment of the Court. He would now move " That Sir William Gosset, Kut., the Sergeant-at-Arms, attending this House, have leave to appear and defend the action brought against him by Thomas Howard." Lord J. RUSSELL said he would not offer any objec tion to the motion proposed by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He would merely state that he retained the opinions which he had before expressed as to the proper course to be pursued under such circumstances. NOTICE OF MOTION—STATE OF TEIE NAVY. Sir C. NAPIER rose to move for a Select Committee "to inquire into the manner in which the money vested since 1835, for the construction of ships, had been ex pended, and if the ships constructed are an improvement of the old system." The Honourable Member (who dropped his voice so as to be nearly in audible) in commencing his speech, proceeded to say that his only motive in bringing forward the motion was to ascertain whether or not the reports in circula tion as to the defects of these ships were correct. He had been told that it was no business of his to interfere with such a matter; that it should be left to the proper authorities, by which was meant, he supposed, the Admi ralty. It had been left to the proper authorities for a great number of years, and they had, notwithstanding, seen the greatest errors and blunders prevailing. This was neither a political nor a party question, but one which concerned the well being of the navy and the proper application of the finances of the country ; and, in the remarks which he was about to make, he should he guided solely by such considerations. It would be necessary to go back for a considerable time. When he (Sir C. Napier) first entered the service, in 1800, the navy contained several three-deckers of 120, 110, 98, and 90 guns. The first class generally consisted of good ships, but the others were so inferior, that they were found totally unfit for service ; but, notwithstanding all the representations which were made to the Ad miralty, the same system was persevered in. This country had taken some very excellent ships from the French. There were the Terror, the Sans Pareil, and the Canopus. Several ships had been constructed upon the model of the Canopus, and had been found to answer extremely well. The Sans Pared was a most excellent ship, but she had never been copied up to this very time. He now came to the frigates of those days. There were forty six gun frigates, forty-two gun frigates, and thirty-two gun frigates, all carrying 18-pounders, thirty-two gun frigates carrying 12-pounders, and twenty-eight gun frigates. Those were very good ships in their clay, but they were found not to answer, and they were superseded by the thirty- two gun ships. One of these ships was commanded by at. Ho.;. and Gallant Officer opposite, and another by himself, 6nd he could say that a more useless lot of ships had never been constructed by any Admi ralty. They were found to be inefficient, in fact, good for nothing ; and they were superseded by another class of frigates, called twenty-eight gun frigates. These, however, like the rest, were not found to answer, and thus were given up. Another class of ships were those called sixteen gun sloops, mounting six pounders, and those vessels wore persevered in until they were found perfectly useless ; and there was not a youngster or boy in the navy that did not know it. The next class of ships adopted were the eighteen-gun frigates, which were much longer and much narrower than the eighteen gun brigs, which every body must have expected would have failed, and which he looked upon as yew !~__.. ~ s