The Sun. — London, England, 1839-07-12 00:00:00

EV PI NING DIT lON. METROPOLITAN POLITICAL SUMMARY. The Courier of last evening, writing on the sub:eA of the penny postage, says : —" We hope most earnestly, with Mr. Dillon, who spoke in so excellent a spirit at the great London meeting yesterday in favour of the penny post age, that party purposes will not be allowed to mingle with the objects of reformation and improvement which are at stake in the question of to-morrow evening ; but our hope to this effect is limited to the Liberal side of the House. It is clear enough that it will be made a party question by the Tories, if into a party ques tion they can by any possibility pervert it ; and there fore it is that we adopt Mr. Dillon's observation, address ing it to all the Liberal body without an exception, and to the few independent Tories who may value justice more than faction, and self-respect more than an approving smile from the dictators of opposition We may all have different views on politics, religion, and morals, but ee all contribute to the Post-office. We should merge our diffe rences in the common object of making it as efficient as possible.' " The Globe coneitos the following observations sug gested by the anti:education address presented to her Majesty yesterday by the Tory Peers :—" That her Majesty will consent to deliver over a large number of her subjects to the dominion of ignorance, an I to the miseries and vices which follow in its train, by con senting to a barrier being placed between them and the acquisition of an educition suited to their station, is so unlikely—so perfectly at variance with her M.jesty's known disposition and character—and so opposed to the seuthnents expressed at the opening of the Seseion in that part of the Royal Speech which relates to National Education—that we feel ourselves warranted to conclu-le the formidable affray of Peers and Prelates will tail to produce any other effect on the: mind of the Sovereign, than regret for the pertinacity with which their Lordships still oppose na tional improvements ; and a fear lest long-continued obsti nacy should endanger the existence of a privilege which they so often employ for the purposes of faction, in. stead of its being exercised for the good of the entire com munity, for the promotion of which it was confided to their hands." •The .Standard remarks, in reference to the penny post age question—" We are convinced that a penny postage will have done more at the erAl of ten years to promote education Orin any amount or Parliamentary grants. It will, have supplied the rnotiv , '—the thing wanted in all such - cases But, though the change is so dcsiratle on every recount, it cannot be salcly or honestly made, without at the same time providing for the deficiency which it will close in. the revenue. The Morning Chronicle truly says that by omitting to make this provision, while he at the ;sams time acknowledged the necessity for it, Mr. Spring Rice his done his wmost to ensure the defeat of the mea sure; and yet we find that at Ipswich Sir Robert Peel is repreEeatcd as lic•vila to the penny postage, because he has merely lope:tett. in Parliament the complaint of the most a alone ccnstaat supporter of the measure among all the publiz jeurnals." ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE. II 0 3,11, , ' CIRCU IT-11FRrFoRD, JuLr 11. -The Commission for the county cf Harts was openes this . ,dayat lic!rt'o:d. The Ca! en ea r con t a i ns t h e names of six pr..soners—all maters. Only one cf these prisoners could read and write imperfectly, and the other bye could neither ruld cr write. Lord Chief Justice DENMAN and Lord Chief Justice TINDAL opens i the Commission at one o'clock, after which the business of the Assize proceeded, Lord Den man presiding in the Nisi Prius Court, and Chief Jus tice Tyndal in the Crown Court. His Lordship coo gratu:ated the Grand Jury upon the 14.) - ntricss of the Calendar, and said he was happy to inform them that they would not long be detained from their business. Twoeasoi were then tried, but they wore destitute o public itittrest. POLICE INTELLIGENCE. BO W- STREET. George Lran, t. 7110 sta;:d?, charged with hning altered the inscription on a letter franked by the Earl of Winchil sea, was brought up yesterday for further examination. He was attended by several respectable frends. Mr. Berger, the bookseller of Holywell-street, said he bad kno , vn Mr. Lean for a coosiderqble time, and had every reason to believe him to be a person of unblemished character. Mr. MiNsnum, required sureties of 200/ each. The priscaer not having the required sureties in attend. ancd, was ordered to be brought up again in a week. On Wednesday morning between six and seven o'clock . , an accident occurred at Hungerford•market to a labouring man, named James Carter, who %vas employed in raising a heavy package by a crane, when he let the handle gip from his grasp, and it struck him on his face, fractur- Mg the right side of the jaw, dislodging several of his teeth, and tearing the face away from the gums and cheek. bone m a shocking manner. He was removed in a state of dreadful suffering to Charing-cross Hospital. BRUTAL ACT.—Wednesday George .Jones, a. tall fellow, in the garb of a mechanic, was charged before Mr. Hardwick, at Lambeth.strcet, with biting off the tail of a fine and favourite cat, the property of Mr. Stone, a Ipst•maker, in Colchester-street, Whitechapel. Mr. Stone `stated that, aboat an hour before, a very fine cat, which was not only a great favourite of his family but the admi ration of every person who saw it, was standing on the threshold of his shop door, when the prisoner, who was passing with two others, took it up and bit off its tail about an inch and a half from the back. He then flourished the part he had severed in apparent triumph before his compa nions, and continued to do so until he was secured by a policeman. Mr. Stone added, that when he left home the poor cat was in a dying state, both from the loss of blood and the severe manner m which she had been seizel by the prisoner. A respectable female who had witnessed the brutual act corroborated the whole of the above statemert. The prisoner, who seemed to be half drunk, denied his being the person who committed the act, and said it had been one of his companions. Both the witnesses, bow. ever, swore quite the contrary, and declared he was the person. Mr. Hardwick observed that he did not recollect an instance of more wanton or savage inhumanity than that of which the prisoner had been guilty, and sentenced him to the highest penalty, namely, 40a., or fourteen days at the treadmill. ATTEMPT AT MURDER.—It will be recollected that a short time ago a man named Major was taken into custody for attempting to cut, in the open street, the throat cf a woman with whom he had cohabited. The woman having recovered sufficiently to give evidence, the prisoner was on Wednesday brought before the Magistrates of Union-hall, who committed him to Newgate for trial. USE OF LAUDANUNI.—In the course of an inquest held yesterday on the body of an infant who had died from an over-dose of laudanum incautiously given by its mother, Mr. Wakley said he had known one drop to kill a child five months old. The fact, however, was, that in many inetances the article was sold at a variety of strengths, and persons would be able to take probably double the quantity of laudanum purchased at one chemist's as of that which they might purchase at another. The erise of this was, that at the one place it was prepared in strict accordance with the directions of the pharmacopoeia, and in the other deleterious trash was sold, varying from five to twenty degrees below the proper strength. This proceeding resulted frequently in fatal consequences by persons taking the same quantity of the laudanum of the proper strength who had previously been in the habit of taking that which was weaker. This was a state of things that, ought to be remedied ; but he much doubted whether it could be done without the establishment of a medical po'ice. BRUTAL ACT.—On Thursday George Jones, a tall fellow, dressed as a mechanic, was charged before C H irdwiek, at Lambeth -street, with biting off the tail of a fine and favour& cat, the property of Mr. Stone, a Mt-maker, in Colchester- street, Whitechapel. Mr. Stone stated that, about an hcur before, a very fine cat, which was not only a great favourite of his family but the admiration of every person who saw it, was standing on the thrcshhold of his shop door, when the prisoner, who was passing with two others, took it up and bit off its tail about an inch and a half from the back. Mr. Stone added, that wheq he left home the poor cat was in a dying state, both from the loss of blood and the severe manner in which she had been seized by thgprisoner. A respectable female who bad witnessed the jEtrutal act corroborated the above statement. The prisoner, who seemed to be half drunk, denied being the person who committed the act, and said it hid been one of his companions. Both the witnesses, hcharever, swore quite the contrary, and declared he was the person. Mr. Hardwick observed that he did not recol lect an instance of more wanton or savage inhumanity than that of which the prisoner had been guilty, and sentenced him to the highest penalty, namely, eos., or fourteen days at the treadmill. DETERMINED SUICIDE OF A GROOM.---A most determined act of self-destruction was committed on Sindry last by a young man dressed in the stable garb of groom.„ He was observed between ten and eleven o clock on.ltonday morning running down the road leading from tu L° +°r l L and Albany Tavern, Regent's-park, towards the canal. He crossed the first bridge, and proceeded along the banks of the canal until he arrived at the second. He ascended the parapet of this bridge, and having arrived at its centre, flung himself from its summit into the canal. A great number of people rushed to the spot, but the deceased was nowhere to be seen. The police having procured the drags, commenced searching for the body, and in a short time brought it ashore, but life was quite extinct. They conveyed the body to St. Pancras workhouse, whe:e it lies to be identified, and to receive the verd ct of a Co roner's jury. SERIOUS ACClDENT.—Wednesday aft er noon, as a lad named White, the son of a fisherman a was running behind the carriage of h er Grace the Whitten, sud e'uss itttn ' of Leeds, as it was proceeding through H ouns l ow, h denly fell, and, before he could recover hi s feet, was run over by a cart belonging to Mr. Otte rway , baker, of Heston, which was following the carriage. The wheel passed over his chest and abdomen, inflicting most severs injuries. He was immediately conveyed to the residence o f his parents, where he was attended by Mr. Litchdel 1, the Union surgeon for the district, who gives but little hopes of his ultimate recovery. The Dunoon Castle took fire on Lochfine on Tuesday, when about two miles from land, in consequence of the boiler having been allowed to run short of water. The flames were beginning to appear on deck before the fire . was got under. Great alarm was of course experienced by the passengers, but no more serious effect followed. Whektiaa water was let in upon the boiler,which was nearly red-hot, the crackling noise it occasioned might have been he :rd at half e rages distance.— Greenock Advertiser. Pi "ualt.—At the Central Criminal Court yesterday, G eo rge Murray, formerly in the employ of Rawlins, the inferm er , me it. The, was brought up to receive judg_ prisoner was convicted some clays ago of wil ful perjury, in giving evidence against a publican, an: the sentence of the Court was, that he be kept to hard labour in the - Iltolse of-Correction for two years. • IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 11. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woo!- sack at Five o'Clock. A Message from the Commons brought up several Bills. The repeal and drawback in part duties on Bricks Bill ; the repeal and drawback in part duties on Papers 13.!I, and the Glass Duties Bill , passed through a Com tnitteej.of the whole House without any amendments. HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER. The LORD CHANCELLOR read her Majesty's gracious answer to the Address that hail o:is day been presented to her.—[See another part of The San.l Upon the motion of the Marquis of LANSDO WNE, the answer was ordered to be printed. FINANCIAL AFFAIRS. Lord ASHBURTON moved (as we understood) for certain returns respecting the financial state of the country for the yeaxs 1836, 1837, 1838, and 1839 ; also a return of the deficiencies for the same years. The Earl of RIPON was exceedingly happy that this subject had been taken up by his Noble Friend, who was so competent to deal with it. Had his Noble Friend not done so, he himself should have brought forward a motion on the subject. CANADA. ELLENBOROUGH said that he had ob sery ed that certain papers relating to Canada had been !aid on the table of the House of Commons last night, and he wished to know if a copy of the samepapers were not to be laid on their Lordships' table ? The Marquis of NORMAN BY said copies of the scale papers should be laid on their Lordships' table to- morrow. The Tithe Commutation Amendment Act passed through a Committee of the whole Huse, and was or dered to be recommitted on Tuesday next. POOR-LAW. Earl STANHOPE said before he presented the petition he had in his hand, he wished to ask a question of the Noble Duke (Portland), and also of the Noble Lord (Wharneliffe) near him. It would be recollected that he had, about three months ago, presented a petition from an old man, of the name of John Berry, who had been refused assistance by the Worksop Union, and complaining of grievances which it was said should be inquired into. He wished to know if the Noble Duke and the Noble Lord had inquired into the matter, and if they had any statement to make to the House. The Duke of P-1 ORTLAND said he bad ascer tained that the Un'oa had found upon inquiry that the cid man had relatious who were both able and willing to support him ; and that on th a t groun d th e Union did not consider they were bound to support him. Lord WHARNCLIFFE said, that the result of his inquiries was different to that stated by the Noble Duke. This was a man 91 years of age, with a wife of about 70. He was very infirm, and had some time since got one of his arms broken. Until the Union came into operation at Worksop he had been allowed 2s a week and had his rent paid. The Board of Guardians immediately stopped his rent, but continued to allow him the two shilling's a week. He soon got into great difficulties from inability to pay his rent, and had the few articles he possessed seized and sold. The only relative he had on earth was a man who had mar ried his niece, who declared, when applied to, that he had nothing whatever beyond what he required for the support of himself and his own family, and the utmost he had ever given to the old man was sixpence ; a memorial was presented to the Poor-law Commis sioners, who had in the end ordered him to receive ss. a-week. Earl STANHOPE considered this as a strong ex ;:mole of the injurious workings of the Poor-law. The NOBLE EARL then presented a petition from Ann \Vilden, complaining of the treatment that bad been received by her sister, Mary Wilden, who had been in a workhouse, and who, after she had been turned out very soon died from exhaustion. A coroner's inquest had been held on the body, and the jury had returned a verdict that she had died from natural causes, but the Noble Lord complained of the mode in which the inquest had been conducted, and the witnesses who had been examined—the witnesses having been in terested witnesses. The Duke of PORTL A ND defended the conduct of the guardians in this case. The poor woman had re ceived m arc care and attention while she was in the house than she could have received elsewhere. Lord WHARNCLIFFE did not think a case could ilav, been brought forward calling less for the attention of the House. The Duke of PORTLAND said if the Noble Lord would get a Committee of their Lordships appointed, a fair discussion of the subject might take place, and he should then be perfectly prepared to state his general views upon it. Earl STANHOPE did not ground his objections to this most execrable law on any number of cases of particu lar hardship that might be brought forward, but if he were to do so, and he bad an opportunity of bringing them before a Committee, he could assure the Noble Duke that he should he able to furnish him with such a number of cases as would sufficiently occupy him in reflection for the re mainder of hia life—(Laughter)—however long he trusted that life would yet be. The Duke of RICHMOND considered that the Noble Earl had unfairly thrown out insinuations against his Noble Friend. The Noble Duke was Chairman of a Board of Guardians. It was rather singular that the Noble Earl should, at the end of every Session, profess himself to be ready to bring forward substantial cases of complaint, when he had never yet brought forward a single e,ise that could hold water for a moment.—( Hear, hear.) Earl STANHOPE was surprised to hear the statement of the NoVe Duke who had just sat down, when that Noble Duke well knew that, notwithstanding all the inge nuity of that Noble Duke, and the pettifogging and quib bling mode by which he examined the witnesses before the Poor-law Committee, sad thereby endeavoured to confuse them, he (the Noble Earl) had supported every case be had brought forward. Earl FITZ WILLIAM said that the Noble Earl opposite always appeared himself as a witness in support of every case be brought forward. He had declared he would have nothing to do with the Poor-law, but if he would only condescend to act as Chairman to a Beare of Guardians—( Hear, hear)—he might then qualify himself to give such useful information to the House as would ensure that respect and attention which all useful information was sure to command. The Duke of RICHMOND said the Noble Earl had most incorrectly, and contrary to the standing orders of the House, charred him with being guilty of conduct un becoming a gentleman and a Peer of that House.—( Hear, hear.) On every occasion on which the Noble Earl opened his lips on the subject of the Poor-law he grew wild, and wilder and wilder he seemed to grow.—( Hear, hear.),, He had most incorrectly charged him with pettifogging con duct and an endeavour to make witnesses swear that which sea , : contrary to the truth—for that was the insinuation of the Noble Earl.—( Hear, hear.) He (the Noble Duke) denied that he had ever been guilty of such conduct ; and he would appeal to Noble Lords who bad sat with him on Committees whether they had ever observed him do any_ thing except to elicit the truth.—(M uc h c h eer i ng .) H e hoped his Noble Friend would remember for the future that when he was charging a Peer of that House, he was charging one who was present. He bad been too often allowed the liberty to charge the Guardians when they were not present, and who therefore could not answer him; but he (the Noble Duke) would defend them when he thought they were right ; and he would not permit the Noble Earl, nor any other man in the country, to impute motives,to him which, if the Noble Earl had had attributed to himself, he would no doubt consider would be a disgrace to him as a gentleman and as a Peer. Lord BROUGHAM said that he had very often, indeed served on Committees with his Noble Friend the Noble Duke on the cross benches; and if ever there was a man in his conduct in Committees ltss entitled to be called pettifogging, or guilty of brow beating witnesses, he nas that man.—( Much cheers.) He was exemplary in pursuing a course quite the reverse; nor had he ever resorted to the subterfuges which the Noble Earl in a rash moment had attributed to him.— ( Hear, bear.) He was quite sure that the Noble Earl would not be too proud to give an immediate assurance to the Noble Duke that he meant nothing personally offensive to him. Earl STANHOPE had no hesitation in at once assuring the Noble Duke that he meant nothing whatever per sonally offensive to him. At the same (as we understood the Noble Earl) he must say that the course of conduct which he had described had been pursued both in the Committee, and upon the Poor-law Commission. Still he never thought of imputing to the Noble Duke he had ever wished to exact from a witness that which was not true. Lord WHARNCLIFFE rose amidst cries of "Order of the Day—Order of the Day." He would, from his personal knowledge, positively deny that such conduct had ever been adopted by the Noble Duke as that which had been attributed to him. BEER BILL. Lord BROUGHAM, in a nswer to a question from the Marquis of Westminster, said, that he intended to move to-morrow a general resolution, that it was highly expe dient that beer shops be henceforth put upon the same f oo ting with the houses of licensed victuallers, in respect to beer, & e ., both thos e w hi c h h a d h i therto been, and those ale, t h at might henceforth be, licensed, as he should con sider that the most safe and prudent course. The Earl of FINGALL presented a petition in favour of the Prisons Bill. The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition from the inhabitants of the city of Exeter against the Prisons The Earl of GLE NG AL L presented a petition pray ing their Lordships not to allow Roman Catholic Clergy to he appointed the Chaplains to English gaols. CHURCH DISCIPLINE BILL. The Church Discipline Bill passed through a Committee for the purpos e of adopting certain amendments. The Earl o f SHAFTESBURY understood that the discussion was taken upon the third reading of this Bill. of The Bishop EXETER said his objections to this Bill were a s strong as ever. But at this late period of the Session ho was willing to let the Bill pass this stage, provided it were clearly understood that the third reading should be appointed for a day when it should have prece dence of all other matters. If that should not be so, he should feel it to be his duty to take the present opportunity of expressing his objections to almost every clause in the Bill. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY propo se d t h at t h e Report should be brought up to-morrow. The Bishop of LONDON thought that the discussion upon the Bill could not take more than one day. The Bishop of EXETER thought nobody could take the trcuble of looktng at the Bill and understanding every clause in it. and think that it could take less than a week to discuss. It was then understood that the Report should he brought up to-morrow, and that then a day should be fixed for the third; reading. PRISONS BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that, in rising to move their Lordships to give a second reading to the Prisons Bill, he felt entitled to ask their Lordships' serious attention, as it was one of paramount importance. The object of it was, as far as possible, to prevent crime. Their Lordships had within the last three years removed from the commission cf many offences the punishment of death, He greatly rejoiced at that, because he believed that in many cases in which the capital punishment was carried into execution, it was not necessary or useful to have punished with death. But as their Lordships bad done that, it became them to take such steps as might, under such circumstances, be necessary. There were two ways in which by punishment crime might be prevented and persons made to observe good conduct. The one was by having an effective police, in which respect many parts of the country were at this moment most defective.—(Hear, hear.) The other was by having a a holesome prison dis cipline. The Bill was as far as might be for the purpose of correcting the abuses in prison discipline, and for en abling counties at their option to adopt measures calculated to improve the effect of confinement. Indeed the great object of the measure was to enable magistrates of counties, if they should think it expedient, to adept a system of se parate confinement, and so to deal with persons under sen tences for crimes, as that, when they left the prisons, they might be better subjects than when they entered those places, and as far as might be to prevent the repetition of offences.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Thi s had been the subj e ct of anxious inquiry for many years, not only here, but throughout almost ail the civilized countries of the world. The experiment had been mode with more success in America, than in any other place. The attention of those who had the government of affsirs in different parts of Europe, had been attracted by the ex periment going on there ; and from many parts of Europe persons had been sent to make observations upon the ope ration of the separate system in America. The Reports they had made upon that system had been most favour able ; and he could hardly state a fact more 'calculated to convince their Lordships of the best possible results of that system, than to inform them that two distinguished individuals in France, who had entertained opinions adverse to the eeparate system, and who had written upon that, went to America to make their observations upon it, and came back strongly recommending their Government to adopt it. We were not, however, under the necessity of going to foreign countries for the purpose of ascertaining- the beeeficial effects of it, inasmuch as we had among ourselves prisons in which it bad been adopted. Among those the most striking was the Bridewell of Glasgow, where it had been in operation many years ; and their Lordships would find, by leoking into the Report of the Inspectors of Prisons in Scotland, the most happy results. In matters of this kind, so long as the experiment remained in theory, men would form different opinions; hut they had something else now to resort to than mere speculation. It was a fact beyond all dispute, from the Reports from prisons, that the most disgusting effects had been produced from the association of persons in prisons. The object of the separate system was to prevent that deplorable system, and to prevent persons from contamination by imprisonment.--( Hear.) The separate system which the present Bill proposed to establish was intended to combine reformation with instruc tion. The prisoners under that systeas would be open to the visits of all persons. Wherever the separate system had been tried it had been found to work well, and the tables of their Lordships' House were full of instances of the good effects of that system, and the great object of the present Bill .vas to make that system more effective. As an instance of the good to be derived from conduct ing prisons on a proper plan, he might advert to the Bridewell at Glasgow, which was considered one of the best conducted prisons in the kingdom. •The expenses of that establishment, as compared with some of the smaller and badly conducted prisons, was small indeed. The cost of a prisoner there was only 31. per annum, and if they were committed for more than a twelvemonth they earned all that they cost ; while in other prisons not so fa vourably circumstanced, some of them cost 301. a head, and the average was 171. a head. The expenses of officers in the former prison was about 21., while in the others the average was 101. He had heard two objections rased to this Bill ; one was that it had a tendency to prevert that uniformity of system which was desirable to be attained in the classification of prisoners. He did not think the classifications cf crime desirable, because under such a system a person might be sent to prisms for a small ofknce, placed among small offenders, and yet he might he the greatest rogue in the place. Another objection was, that it superseded the authority of the Ma gisarates to a great extent. Now, as to classification, surely those persons who had had the management of prisons were far better qualified to classify prisoners than any enactment ; and so far from the present Bill super seding the authority of the Magistrates, it left it entirely to the Magistrates of Counties to frame their own rules and regulations. The present Bill would not deprive the Magistrates of the power they exercised under the existing Goal Act. In order to meet the objections which had been urged it was his intention, in the Committee, to pro pose some important alterations. The eleventh clause declared that no prisons should hereafter be erected unless a plan had been previously drawn and submitted to the Se cretary of State for his approval—but it might be said that if the Secretary of 'State was determined to support the separate system, he might refuse his approval to any plan which did not adopt the separate system. In order to guard against this, it was his intention to propose as an addition to the clause, a proviso stating that the Secretary of State should in every instance state his reasons in writing for disapproving the plan, and that it should not be lawful for him to disapprove of any plan, solely because it did not admit of the separate ootifinement of prisoners. If these objections were obviated, he trusted their Lordships would permit the Bill to be read a second time, and he would ask their Lordships if they were prepared to take upon themselves to say that they would object to any al. teration being made in the present system of prison disci pline? Fle would beseech them to look at the mass of evi dence proving the manner in which this plan had worked in other countries, and then to look at the state of the pri sons in this country. If their Lordships should throw out this Bill they would be taking upon themselves a very great responsibility. In some counties prisons had already been erected preparatory to the introduction of this system. Were these counties to be told that they had expended their money uselessly in endeavouring to introduce a sys tem which did n o t mee t w i t h t h e i r Lordships' approval ? Seeing the mass o f ev id ence i n f avour o f t hi s system, which was absolutely untouched by the evidence on the other side, he thought their Lordships ought to pause before taking such a step. He would refer their Lordships to the report of the Inspectors of Prisons as to the Bridewell of Giasgow. They would there find it stated that ninny persons who had long indu'ged in crime had, by separate confinement, been reformed, and by acquiring a know ledge of some honest trade, been enabled to main tain themselves as honest Men after their period of confinement had terminated. What good was it to keep men in prison for a certain period, and then to turn them out to commit evil again, profiting by the education in evil which they must have acquired from their communications with other prisoners during their resi dence in prison ? But let the prisoners be kept as they were in Glasgow, separate from each other—instructed by the chaplain—instructed in some trade—and they would leave the prison honest men and good subjects. Punish ment in this manner deterred others and reclaimed the criminal. He hoped their Lordships would not come to a vote on this question without reading the report. It was no trifling matter they were now called on to decide, it was a matter on which the security of life and property de pended. If it was their Lordships' pleasure to give the Magistrates the power of adopting the separate system, it was proposed to give them every facility by the establish ment of a model system in London. The counties would thus have an opportunity of seeing how the system worked. if they passed the Bill, a model prison would be established in London, and unless the result was different from what it had been everywhere else, there would be no necessity of any power to compel them to adopt it. He trusted their Lordships would adopt this Bill. The Marquis of SALISBURY thought that instead of this Bill introducing a uniformity of system, it would have a diametrically opposite effect, as it tended to established two distinct systems of prison discipline. He thought the amendments to the eleventh clause would remove any objections to reposing the power in the hands of the Secretary of State; but he did not think Magistrates should be entrusted with the power of regulating prisons ; those rules ought to be laid down by Act of Parliament, and no persors should have the power of altering them. He did not think the separate system had been so successful as lal be.n ima gined in America ; opinions were divided on that subject. He trusted the statement of the Noble and Learned Lord might be taken as a pledge that it was the intenti in of the Government to erect a prison as a model for adoption. He felt the responsibility of throwing out the Bill, and would not press the House to a division. The D . uke of RICHMOND thought the present Bill far from being perfect, but their inability to get a perfect measure was no reason for rejecting one as perfect as they could get it. He knew of two pri sons in the county of Sussex in which the separate system had been adopted with great success; and many persons who had been confined there had maintained honest cha- ratters since they had left there. The committals had greatly decreased, and now farmers did not refuse these men employment, which was formerly the case with those who had left prisons, because they knew that they left worse men than they went in; but the contrary was now the case. He should propose certain amendments in Committee, but would not now go into detail. He trusted that this was the commencement of an improvement of the law on this subject; that they would have an opportunity of ascertaining which system was the best, and repeal the old law on the subject, for the purpose of introducing a new one, founded on the experience they had gained. The Duke of WELLINGTON (who spoke very in. audibly) said, that instead of this Bill going too far, it did not go far enough. He thought ever; thing should be done to accelerate the operation of this measure, which was likely to produce a beneficial effect. Lord DUNCANNON said that the Government had already provided the ground, and in the event of this Bill passing it was their intention to proceed with the erection of a model prison, with as little delay es possible. The Earl of CHICHESTER said all the improve ments that had been proposed of late years in prison dis cipline had recognised the principle of a separation of the prisoners. For his part he was inclined to advocate that system which comprehended both the silent system and the separation of the prisoners. He hoped, with some slight amendments, the Bill would be carried, as he was convinced it would be productive of great benefit. He would suggest the propriety of requiring that the plans of all prisons which were about to be erected should be submitted to the Secretary of State for his ap proval, so that it might be ascertained whether their ar rangements were such as would enable the improved sys tem to be carried into effect. TH 14 1 4 SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY.. JULY 12. 1 -20 The LORD CHANCELLOR said it had been found that there were great d,fficulties in the way of introducing the silent system generally into the prisons of that country. One of the inspectors had stated that in a very short space of time there had been 5,000 punishments for the violations of the silent system. The same objections did not, how ever, apply to the separation of the prisoners. Lord WYNFORD feared that at the present advanced period of the Session they had not time to mike these amendments which were required. He was not sanguine, therefore, as to what could be done with regard to the sub ject during the present Session. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to b-..‘ committed on Thursday next. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, JULY 11. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. CARLOW ELECTION. Mr. GROTE' brought up the Report of the Com mittee appointed to inquire into the merits of a petition, complaining of an undue return for the borough of Car low. The Committee reported that they had determined that Francis Bruen, Esq., was not duly elected, and ought not to have been returned—that Thomas Gis borne, Esq., the younger, was duly elected, and ought to have been returned—that the petition of Thomas Gisborne the younger, George O'Farrell, and others, against the return, was not frivolous or vexations—and that the opposition of Henry Cary and others to such petition was not frivolous or vexatious—and that the Committee had altered the poll by striking off certain names and by adding one name. The Report was brought up, and the Clerk of the Crown ordered to attend to-morrow to amend the return. Mr. W. O'BRIEN brought up the Report of the Rathkeale Inclosure Bill. Mr. FOX MAULE postponed the third reading of the London City Police Bill till to-morrow. Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from some parish, praying relief from certain grievances suffered by the parish in consequenc e of some enact ments of the New Poor-law Act.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. GROTE presented two petitions in favour of the proposed plan of penny postage. Mr. PRY DIE presented a petition from St. James, Westminster, praying the House to adopt some rnea sure for closing gin shops on Sundays. Sir H. PA RNELL presented a petition from Dundee, in favour of Mr. Rowland Hill's plan for a penny post. Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition from Sir W. Horton, praying the House to take his plan for emi gration into consideration. Lord DALMENY presented a petition from Dal keith, in favour of a penny post. Mr. R. STEWART presented a petition from the school-masters of' Scotland, complaining of the inadequacy of their salaries, and praying the House to adopt some plan for their better remuneration. Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Edinburgh in favour of a penny post. Mr. R. FERGUSSON presented similar petitions from the Chamber of Commerce of Kirkaldy and Banff. Mr. HARVEY presented a petition from the Guar dians of the Poor of St. George, Southwark, against the Collection of Rates Bill. Mr. AINSWORTH presented a petition from Bol ton, in favour of the penny postage, and a petition from the same place in favour of the extension of homing warehouses to large towns. Mr. HUME gave notice that on the 9.3 d July he should take the opinion of the House as to enforcing the order of the 14th March, for certain returns to be made by the Royal Academy. Sir R. INGLIS gave notice that on that day he should move as an amendment, that the order of the 14th March be rescinded. Mr. GROTE moved for a return of the number of fiats of bankruptcy, issued from 1838 to 1839, dis tinguishing the town and country fiats. THE NATIONAL PETITION. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said there was a motion for to-morrow of the Hon. Member for Birmingham, for a Committee of the whole House on the petition which was presented by him on the 14th June. It was desirable that the discussion should come on early, an d he hoped the House would not object to the Hon. Member moving before the other Orders of the Day. IRISH BANK. Mr. HUME wished to ask the Noble Lord if he would fix a day for the discussion of the Irish Bank Monopoly. If a day were not given for the discussion before Thursday next, he should bring forward the ques tion on the first supply day after that day. He had waited patiently for three months, and he considered that was quite time sufficient. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the better plan would be for the Hon. Member to give regular notice of a motion on the subject. . Mr. HUME—But we have had all our motion days taken away. HIGHWAY RATES BILL. Colonel WOOD asked the Noble Lord whether it was his intention to proceed with the Highway Rates Bill this Sessioh. Lord J. RUSSELL said it was his desire to commit the Bill, in order to introduce extensive alterations into it, but he would answer the question of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman to-morrow. NEW .TUDGE IN EQUITY. Sir EDWARD SUGDEN asked if it was the in tention of the Noble Lord to introduce a Bill into that House, authorizing the appointment of an addi tional Judge in Equity. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was the inten tion of the Government to introduce a Bill into that House on the subject. IRISH MUNICIPAL REFORM. Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR wished to know when it was intended to proceed with the Irish Municipal Reform Bill ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL —On Monday. Mr. GILLON supposed it was not the intention of the Noble Lord to go into a Committee of Supply on that day. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was his inten• tion, as he hoped the House would not be detained long by the discussion on the Irish Municipal Reform Bill. PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND). Mr. ELLIS complained of the non production of certain returns for which he had moved, connected with the expenditure which had taken place for public works in Ireland. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. Mr. DARBY inquired how it was that the returns which had been proposed of the children in the schools in Ireland, distinguishing those of different religions had not been made ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he could not answer positively, but supposed t . he delay arose from the difficulty there was in furnishing such a return, seeing that it was the general custom of the National Board of Education in Ireland not to inquire the religion of the children.--(Hear, hear.) CANADA. Mr. C. BULLER said as returns seemed to be the Order of the Day, he wanted to know how it was that somehow or other he could never get one.--(A laugh.) He had moved, for instance, some time since for certain returns relative to Upper Canada—where were they ? Mr. LABOUCHERE said the matter should be looked to. Mr. HUME wished to put in a word for a return of his.—( A laugh.) He had moved for returns on the 15th and 20th February of the revenue and the ex penditure for five years of Upper and Lower Canada. ECCLESIASTICAL PREFERMENTS BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL moved the second reading of this Bill. Sir R. H. INGLIS objected to the Bill, because he believed it would be a commencement of a series of bit-by-bit innovations teaching to undermine the Ec clesiastical system of this country. It was not a Bill merely or suspending Ecclesiastical and Cathedral appoint ments, but making an exception in favour of a certain rota, and on certain principles —to be determined on by the Crown.—(Hear, hear.) If this Bill were carried in the present Session and renewed the next, and so on fur a given number of years, the effect would ultimately be, that in this way the Noble Lord would attain the object which he had pro fessed to have in view, by the larger measure (the Ec eesiastieal Duties and Revenues Bill) which stood for Committee to-night. Lord J. RUSSELL was ready to admit to his Hon. Friend that there was an objection to renewing a Bill of this kind for such a number of years as would in reality attain the object he had in view in the other and larger measure. But to that larger measure there :were, he understood, a variety of objec tions urged, though its object being not merely to suspend or abolish stalls and dignities, in cathedrals and chapters, but to provide a fund from the least objectionable source for increasing the means of the Eitablished Church to extend its doctrines ; and to that object he presumed no part of the clergy would be opposed.—( Hear, hear.) He had not seen any satisfactory method for attaining this object other than that recommended by the Church Commission. But as it was desirable that any such measure should be passed with as much unani m i ty as possible, f or thi s reason i t was intended to postpone it another year ; and it was only for that temporary p urpose that the present Bill was suggested.—( Hea r , h ear. The Biil was then re a d a second time. LOWER CANADA GOVERNMENT BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for going into Committee on this Bill. Sir W. MOLES WOLTH rose, amidst great confu sion, from Members leaving the House, to say a few words. The motion he had to make, and the resolution he had to propose, were of such a nature that he thought the House would at once respond to them. He did not expect by it to induce the Noble Lord to fulfil 'the promise he had given the House, that the present Session would not pass away without legislating for the government of Canada. Her Majesty's Government was evidently incapable of dealing with the subject, and even with the best intentions in the world they could not carry any rileastire dti the stihject without per mission of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite. They were merely holders of certain places during his pleasure, and if it pleased him they would be obliged to introduce a measure for the government of Canada. It was to him, therefore, the House must look for any practical result. If the Right Hon. Baronet supported his (Sir W. M.'s) resolution, without doubt those per sons who called themselves the Government would consent to it, and the disorders and miseries of Canada would be suppressed. For the delay that had taken place the Ministers were not entirely responsible. It was in the Right Hon. Baronet's power to settle the question —one word from him, and the thing was done. It depended upon the Right Hon. Baronet whether the people of Canada would be relieved from the disorders and miseries by which the Colony had been depopulated. He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet, instead of consulting the cons enience of his party, would con sult the interests of humanity, of justice, and of sound policy, • and from what he knew of the Right Honourable Baronet, he did not despair of his sacrificing mere party objects to the higher considera tions of that momentous question. He appealed to the Right Honourable Baronet on behalf of the suf fering people of Canada, upon him, as the real leader of the House, rested the hopes of that Colony, and not upon that mockery of a Government at which the Noble Lord was at the head. In the course of the fast discussion upon the subject in that House the Right Hon. Baronet referred to the Earl of Durham's Report upon the state of Canada, and pointed out the dangers that were likely to arise from delay. He would take the liberty of reading a few extracts corroborative of that position. The Hon. Baronet then read some ex tracts from the Earl of Durham's Report, pointing out the wretched and distracted state of the province, and the remedy for which admitted of no delay. The Noble Lord, therefore, warned the Government of the danger of not fulfilling the promise to bring forward a measure for the settlement of the province of lower Canada. What her Majesty's Ministers might think of this warning of Lord Durham was a matter of no import ance. But what did the Right Hon. Baronet think of them? Would he vote against the resolution, which declared that they deserved the attention of Parliament ? Did the Right Honourable Gentleman forget the declaration of the Prime Minister, six days after the receipt of Lord Durham's Report, that a measure should be intro duced before Easter, for the purpose of putting a speedy end to the complaints of the people of Ca nada ? Would the Right Hon. Gentleman support the determination of the Government to sneak out of this promise, he thought he would not, and he was sure that the Hon. Member for Liskeard would not, allow the Government to treat Lord Durham's Report as so much waste-paper. He would ask whether there could be less necessity for legislating now than there was at the time of Lord Durham's report? Time Right Hon. Baronet had said that undivided at. tcntioa ought to be paid to the affairs of Canada during the next Session. Why should it not be done now ? It was stated that the late period of the Session would - not allow this to be done. But who was to Marne for that? The affairs of Canada had been shamefully neglected by both Houses of Parliament, and he was convinced that the present motion could only be resisted on party or personal grounds. Any settlement of the question would be better than none at all, and he implored the Right Hon. Ba ronet to lend his aid rather to the settlement of this question than to the wretched Government whom he perhaps might not yet wish to displace. The Hon. Baronet concluded by moving " that it is the opinion of this House, that every consideration of humanity, jus tice, and policy demands that Parliament should seri ously apply itself, without delay, to legislating for the permanent Government of her Majesty's provinces of Upper and Lower Canada." Mr. LEADER seconded the motion. Sir C. E. GREY wished a few hours to be dedi cated to the general consideration of the affairs of Lower Canada ; and being of a contrary opinion as to every thing else which had fallen from the Hon. Baronet, and intending to advise a more cautious course of policy, he would venture to draw the attention of the House to three or four prominent considerations connected with the subject. There was one point to which sufficient attention had not been paid. The mischiefs and dangers which must arise to this country from mismanagement of the affairs of Lower Canada. He had never seen placed in a sufficiently conspicuous point of view the con sideration as to the hands in which Lower Ca nada might be placed in the event of its ceasing to be connected with this country. Above all he would ask the House to turn its attention to the Gulf of St. Lawrence. He had been surprised when an allusion had been made to the possibility of a sepa ration taking place between this country and Lower Canada ; it had been said that at least no danger could be apprehended to this being made a source of aggres sion. He would beg them to cast their eyes over the map of the world, and they would find no spot on the globe from which aggressions were so likely to be made against this country as from the waters of the St. Low rance. It was, in fact, a Baltic of our own—it was an inland sea . , requiring only capital and industry to develop its resources to make it all to the country which should possess it that the Baltic was to Russia and the coun tries which surrounded it. Like the Baltic, it was de fended durin g a considerabl e part of the year from the approaches of an enemy by ice ; but there was this difference between it and the Baltic, that the Gulf of St. Lawrence had three entrances, each of which it would be necessary to guard to prevent the issue of a hostile fleet. The Strait of Belle Isle, the passage be tween the main land and the Island of Newfoundland, and the Gut of Kanoe, between New Britain and Nova Scotia ; all these must be guarded by British fleets at the period of the breaking up of the winter, amidst the fogs of Newfoundland. It had been considered if Canada were dissevered from this country it would be united with the United States of America. This was by no means a necessary consequence. If he were certain of this event happening, he should not feel the alarm which he now felt on the subject—for he did not recollect an instance in ancient or modern his tory in which a parent state bad been destroyed by its children. States were usually destroyed by other states which were opposed to them in opinion habits and manners. It was most probable that Canada would not fall into the hands of the United States ; but—and he was, in consequence of the existing rela tions between the two countries, enabled to make this statement without being thought invidious, or wishing to raise jealousies into the heart of France—Eng land would not have given up the possession of Canada for two months before a French fleet would be anchored in tbe waters of the St. Lawrence, to protect their ancient subjects. They would be almost bound to take this course by the Treaty of 1763, and they would be futher urged to it by the feeling with which Frenchmen would naturally regard New France. He could not but recollect the feelings mani fested so lately as 1802, by one of the most celebrated men of France towards Louisiania, and the other French settlements on the Banks of the Missi sippi and the Ohio, which it had been the inten tion of the French Emperor to have taken possession of, had he not been prevented by the resump tion of the war, and, in abandoning those countries, ho had adopted such measures and precautions as would render it impossible they should fall into the hands of England. Ireland would be in danger from a power having possession of the waters of the St. Lawrence. Canada, by its confines, came in contact with Russia, and was the seat of the most valuable fur trade in the world, the greater part of which be lnnged to this country, and of which Russia had just sufficient to excite its cupidity. Under these circum stances it was impossible to undervalue its importance to the Crown of Great Brtain, either as a commercial, a military, or a naval station, and lie was convinced the there was no spot which in adverse hands could so materially affect the commercial and naval supremacy of Great Britain as the waters of the St. Lawrence. He had dwelt on that topic because he knew it would be idle to expect the House to attend to every subject which would make it the imperative duty of the House not to abandon that province. He was most anxious that there should be a grave deliberation, and a safe course adopted ; and he hoped he might say, without offence to the Hon. Baronet, and without offence to the Noble personage from whose report the Hon. Baronet had "read certain passages, much as h e a d m i re d the ability with which that report had been framed, that he (Sir C. Grey) never perused some passages in that Report without being reminded of the old proverb —" The more haste the less speed." He wished the Honourable Baronet had suggested the heads of a plan which he would recommend Ministers or the Right Honourabl e Baronet to adopt, and send out to Canada before the 12th of August. It was more easy to fire a shot than to form a plan of Government. —(Great laughter.) The Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. C. Buller) recom mended the union of the provinces, and had said that the Government, having once decided on the propriety of that project, should forthwith proceed to exe cute it.—(Hear, hear.) But the Honourable Mem ber was for a thoroughly representative system ;—no delusion—the majority of-the whole was to govern. He (Sir C. Grey) would observe that this was not really the principle of our representativ e system ever since the Reform Bill.—(Hear, hear, hear, from Sir W. Molesworth and Mr. Leader.) Now, it should be recollected that the majority of the inhabitants of the two provinces, taken together, were Roman Ca tholics. He did not say this with any regret ; for he considered it not, per se, as any argument against the union. Had the Hon. Member, however, considered how intimately the existence of the re',lgious endow ment in Canada was connected witi a the preserva tion of the French tenures ? It was the Roman Catholic holders of land only who r,aid tithes ; directly the Protestants became possessed Of it, the tithe ceased. If the Hon. Membe r f or Li s k ea • ed succeeded in putting an end to the French systen him that it was in consequer, Ce Oi that system that these lands were not passed f . of tenure, he could tell eom the hands of the Roman Catholics into those of t: no Protestants. If the tenure was abolished it would be impossible to prevent that change I taking place. In Lower Canada the clergy were a re spectabie end intelligent bodyof men, and possessed great influence in the country. Wasit to be supposed that the vast number of curates and pastors wad be reduced to beggary, which would be the result of such a change in the system, without an effort ? He was surprised that such a proposition had been made without ample provision being made for the Roman Catholic Church. No statement of the ' manner in which that alteration was to be effected had been made, and he feared it would be attended with many difficulties. He would remind the House that they were proposing to unite two provinces, one of which hail no surplus revenue, with another which was in a comparatively flourishing state. They were told that in 1832 the revenue of Lower Canada was more than double her ordinary expenditure, while in Upper Ca nada they had a sent which fell short of her annual wants. It would be madness to attempt to proceed during the present Session with an attempt to effect a Legislative union. What were the points to which a wise Govern ment ought to look at present ? The first thing that should be aimed at was to have a Government capable of protecting the country from foreign invasion. That oFject had already been attained. The next point was that they should have a Government capable of putting down internal rebellion. These things were secured by the Goverment as it at present existed, and if that was broken up he despaired of a Government being formed that would secure the objects to which he had adverted. It was most desirable to make the principle of property sacred in Canada, for be believed there was no spot on the face of the earth in which the sacredness of property should be more carefully observed. No measure was more likely to make the Canadians dislike the union than the one at present proposed. The principle of taxation would greatly interfere with those visions entertained by the Right Hon. Baronet and others, with respect to the appropriation of waste lands. The first great step towards a union of the two provinces would, in his opinion, be the permitting the expression of popular feeling by the institution of municipal principles. He would also suggest that before they attempted the en tire union of the two provinces, they should attempt to unite at one season of the year the Legislative Council of Upper Canada with the existing Governor and Council of Lower Canaria, and that the Bills for Upper Canada, as well as the Bills for Lower Canada, should receive then assent from the united Council and Governor. Tnat, together with municipal institutions spread over both provinces, would facilitate much the union of the two provinces. He could say a great deal more upon this subject, but as he had already trespassed for some time on the House. he would riot trouble them further. Sir ROBERT PEEL would first address himself to the Resolution proposed by the Hon. Baronet as an amendment to the third reading of this Bill. He ( Sir R. Peel) held himself entirely free from any responsibi lity for the delay a hich had arisen. What responsibility the Hon. Baronet might attach to his future proceedings. he held himself entirely exempt from responsibility for the past.—( Hear, hear.) He had considered it of the utmost importance that they should proceed in the course of the present Session to determine what should be the posi. tion of the two Canadas, and at the earliest period of the Session he had asked the Noble Lord whether it was tee intention of her Majesty's Government to proeecd to legislate practically for the Government of the Canadas, and he had received an assurance that it was.—( Cheers.) At a later period he had asked whether before Easter the House would have an opportunity of seeing the legislative measures by which the future Government of Canada was to be ar ranged, and he had received a second assurance it was in tended on the part of the Government to submit that mea sure to the consideration of Parliament before Easter.-- ( Cheers.) He ( Sir Robert Peel) did then intimate a strong opini , n, that unless these measures were in the possession of the House b-_•fore Easter, the opportunity of legislation would be lost, and that the Session would pass away without anything being done.---( Hear, hear.) He had no hesitation in saying, that if he could have foreseen the intention of legislating for the Government of the Canadas would have been abandoned he would himself have submitted some proposition to the House for the purpose of bringing this question to a practical issue.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet ( Sir W. Molesworth) had asked him to discard all party con siderations, and he ( Sir R. Peel) meant to act on that principle, but he very much feared if he voted for the Hon. Baronet's resolution that he should forget that advice, and be acting on party considerations rather than with re ference to the justice of the case. The resolution of the Hon. Baronet was that they should proceed in the course of the present Session to pass certain measures.—(" Hear, hear," from Sir W. Molesworth.) If they were at once to legislate for the Canadas, why go through the form of this preliminary resolution ? Wiry not proceed at once to the consideration of a practical measure? His opinion was they would grossly neglect their duty if they per mitted the next Session to pass without serious steps being taken to adjust this question j and they would be blameable indeed unless they solicited from Govern ment what their intentions were.—(Hear, hear.) But the Hon. Baronet in inviting his (Sir R. Peel's) co-operation had rendered him no assistance—bad established no prin ciple on which he proposed this legislation should be con ducted—had mentioned no conditions on which the Union was to be effected; and if by their united efforts they sue• ceeded in carrying this resolution, he confessed he would not be able the next day to state what course should be adopted.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He did riot call on her Majesty's Government to propose any measure for effecting the Union of the two provinces, but ha did ask them to state what their views were with respect to the settlement of this question.—( Hear, hear.) If they con templated a Union, let them bring forward a measure with a full explanation of all the details, and an explanation as to the opinions of those who had held the highest situa tions. Unless the Government did give the House the means of judging of this question by making proper inqui ries—unless they, having considered the details of the mea sure, did lay some plan on the table, they could never set tle the question. He could not concur with the Hon. Baronet. Could any man believe that Parliament would now apply itself to permanent legislation ? If be assented to the resolution, lie should give a pledge which he should be unable to redeem, for a satisfactory , measure could not be produced this Session for the deter mination of the future Government of Canada.—(Hear.) This was the mo it difficult problem to solve that ever was submitted to the Legislature; and be thought the first step was fairly to look these difficulties in the face.— (Hear.) He agreed with the Hon. Baronet that we ought to maintain the Canadas. The British population had de claration their firm allegiance to their Sovereign--( Hear) —and that they took pride in British connexion. They had proved that they were determined to maintain that connection, and had shown themselves worthy of the name which they bore by the resolution which they had shown in that respect. He did not think it would be compatible with the interest or honour of the country to look merely At pecuniary interest, for the glory and strength of the country would be extinguished if from paltry motives the off. r made by that gallant people was rejected. But it was impos sible to overlook the tremendous responsibility which we should incur; and we had a right to say that the Go vernment of that country should be so constituted that we should be able to maintain their security from foreign aggression and internal insurrection, and we had a right to require that the Government of that country should be constituted on principles to maintain British su premacy, and it ought to be conducted with reference to the wishes and feelings of the inhabitants, and that was the only way in which the connection could be secured. The Government must consider the question and propose some scheme of settlement, founded on extensive inquiry and a knowledge of the feeling of the inhabitants.—( Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman seemed to think the period of the union was far distant. If he had to deal with the French Canadians themselves he doubted whether it would not be for their interest to continue for some time a strong but just and lenient Government. But there were other feeling and wishes to be considered, arid they ought to ensure to Upper Cauada those facilities and advantages for commerce which nature had given, but which arbitrary Government had withheld.—( Hear, hear.) Now, as to the speech of the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman who undertook to convince him that we had made no advance towards a settlement. Whatever glimmering of twilight there might have been before was completely extinguished now.—(Laughter.) The speech of the Honourable Baronet was directed to show that present union was out of the question, and that future union was almost impracticable. The Hon. Gen tleman had advanced a series of truisms from which no one could dissent. The first was that a Governor was bound to observe the law, and he also said that the Canadians were particularly fond of justice. He (Sir R. Peel) ad mitted the justice of his remark, but did not see how it advanced his position. The Hon. Gentleman's second axiom was, " make property safe," observing that the Ca nadians had a particular attachment to property. It was deserving of serious consideration whether the powers given by this Bill had not a tendency to shake those feel ings. The Hon. Gentleman had recommended municipal institutions, but this reeuircd some preliminary inquiry.— ( Hear, hear.) The fourth suggestion was, that there ought to be established a sort of interim Government for the two Provinces —that the Legislative Council of Upper Canada should confer with the Governor and Special Go vernment of Lower Canada on matters of importance. This suggestion he ( Sir R, P.) considered to be a complete set-off against the advantage of municipal constituency.—(A laugh.) Under all the circumstances of the case he found it impossible to support the motion of the Hon. Baronet. If the House was prepared to proceed with legislation, let it do so at once; if not, let it be deferred till next Ses sion, when the affairs of Canada ought to take a prominent place, but he could not agree to make a pledge on the subject. Before he proceeded to the consideration of the clauses of the Bill be wished to make some observations as to the general character of the measure. He thought it had been intended to extend the period of the existing Bill for some short time on account of the anticipated difficulties which might arise. He thought considerable practical embarrassment had been found, and that some powers were necessar y f o r maintaining •the public peace, and should be prepared to give to the Government any powers of that nature which might be necessary for that purpose. There were three different heads under which he considered the Bill. The first was as to the duration of the present Bill. He was glad to see that it was not intended to extend the duration of the Act of last ye ar , which expired on the Ist of November, 1840. The second part of the Bill, to which he wished to call the attention of of the House, was the third clause , which contain( more extensive powers of taxation than was contemplated b } last Act. This Bill repealed the restriction imp'ased by the Act of last Session, and permitted th e levy of a ny tax within the province, to any amount, and ' w ithout any restriction except this, that the proceeds of Government. such tax should be applied to the local If the Right Hon. Gentleman had specified those objects for which he required such extraordinary pow.trs in the Go vernor and Council, he ( Sir R. Peel) weenie not oppose him. If he enumerated for what onj onts ocal taxation was required, he should not refuse to alloy( the power. The PNENIINT EDITION„ Hon. Gentleman had laid on the table a Report from the Council of Lower Canada. It stated that the Governor 1 .! and Council should impose taxes for local purposes, such as the police force, watching, lighting, and paving the streets, railroads, canals, highways, &c., &c. He would refer also to the Bill proposing an union of both provinces. In the 44th clause the precise objects of municipal le gislation were specified in the manner he Sir R. Peel had already stated. If the Noble Lord had proposed si milar powers, or even a great extension of similar powers, he ( Sir R. P.) should net object to them. But if the present Bill were to pass, Municipal objects would be very different next year from what they were this year, for then Municipal objects would be included within the compre hensive signification of whatever local improvements the Governor and Council should consider to be for the benefit of the district or borough in concurrence with two-third: of the inhabitants. What was the sum permitted to be an- t nually expended in local improvements since 1832 ? Mr. LABOUCHERE-40,0001. Sir ROBERT PEEL—The inhabitants would under this Bill be relieved from the forty thou sand pounds for those specific purposes ; but then the Governor and Council would be empowered to expend any sum of money not exceeding the revenue of the pro vince. He ( Sir R. Peel) would never consent to allow her Majesty's Government to confer such unlimited and undsfined power. However, let the Right Hon. Gentle man specify the objects, and specify the necessity for such power, and he would not oppose it. To be sore it was said that the duration of the proposed powers would Le limited to the year 1842 ; but such a limitation only would not satisfy him. Let him provide as extensively as he could show it to be r.ecessary for lighting, watching, and paving towns, for an effective police force, for inter nal improvements, to be repaid by the tolls produced prom them, and he (Sir R. P.) would not object that the Governor and Council should be empowered to impose rates for those rates concurrently with the good will of the majority of the inhabitants. He ( Sir R. P.) should be also happy to support the giving of any powers which should be shown and. be calculated to encourage the ad vancement and the investment of capital in the provinces. He was satisfied to agree to any power either for the ad vaecement of local improvements, or for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, for the maintenance of the tran quillity of the province. But this was a temporary Go vernment, and he would never consent to give the charac ter of a permanently arbitrary character to each a measure —a measure giving a Governor and Council the power of, unlimited taxation without reference to the British Par liament, and without a specification of the objects for !chid' the money was to be raised. Why, under this Bih,. a Governor might raise as much as 300,0001. When Lot d Durham complained that he should not have the means of paying certain officers, and proposed a plan for that purpose, he referred to the Imperial Parliament to check or confirm his suggestions, but the present measure proposed to vest unlimited power in the Council. Under the powers now proposed to be invested in the Governor and Council, the whole revenue of the colony might he mortgaged, and the new municipal officers would find themselves in the situation of having to raise money to pay the public debt incurred under the legislation of the Gpvcrnor and Council. The fourth clause in the Bill proposed to give the Governor arsd Coun cil the power of repealing, suspending, or altericg any Act passed respecting the law of tenure in Lower Cars ads. There was a margina note in the Bill, which showed ibe latent intention of the measure. If, for example, Montrea. l had been referred to, and a case bad been made out to show that enlarged powers were called for the improve ment and protection of that place, he (Sir R. Peel) should not object to it. Nor should he object if any other loca;.ity had been specifically adduced. But after what the Right . Hoe. Gent. bad stated respecting the connection of the Roman Catholic religion in connection with the law of tenure, he thought that he should hesitate about conferring such extraordinary power. The third clause gave unli mited power of taxation, and the fourth power to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—This had been already done in Upper Canada. Sir R. PEEL could not venture himself upon any mo dification of the clauses, for he bad not the necessary ,in formation; but he trusted her Majesty's Government woulei take the sense of the House upon so important a question. , Sir C. GREY explained. Lord J. RUSSELL said that whatever the views and objects of the Right Hon. Baronet were, it must be remem bered that in December, 1832, he seemed to have no other view than to subvert British authority in the Canadas, and also what was called the British party there, and if her Ma. jesty's Government had taken the advice of the Right ' Hon. Gentleman the most dangerous results would have ' followed. He (Lord John Russell) was, therefore, not likely to be diverted from his course by the remonstrances of the Right Hon. Baronet. He did not want to throw any blame upon the Right Hon. Gentleman for any delay that might have taken place in legislating upon this' ques tion, but he must also say that the questions put by She Right Hon. Baronet in the early part of the Session la. not, either in his ( Lord J. Russell's) mind, or in the minds of others, any tendency to hasten legislation on this subject. His own view of the subject had been modified by the decision on the Jamaica question, for it appeared to him that it would be the greatest misfortune if on a subject of this kind a measure were precipitately forced on to a party divisien; for though in this country party feeling did not interfere with the authority of the Executive, it must not be forgotten that in a Colony so distant from the seat of Government the supremacy of British authority must in timately be shaken by making questions of Colonial policy dependant on party divisions. With this view the Government certainty were not anxious to precipitate a decision on the subject, upon which unanimity was most desirous. It could not be admitted—it was not denied, by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite—.that this subject was one of the most difficult to legislate upon. The Government had come to the opinion that, upon the wholo, the project of a union afforded the best prospect of a happy result—but they were nut insensible to the diffi culties atteeslant on the proposition. Legislation, with respect Canada must be on one of two principles. Either on the principle of Mr. Pitt in 1791—0 f separating the two races ; or on the principle of uniting them. On the first principle, could we prevent, in a French province a considerable British population, who would ever be in collision with the French—and as the French tenures were connected, with the Roman Catholic Establishment— how could the Supreme Power be constituted? If despotically, no one could expect that the Canadas would long acquiesce in it—they would naturally ask, and if perseveringly, doubtless would obtain, a Representative Assembly, which would revive the difficulties between the French and the English races—a French majority—an English minority, in the same Chamber; the English mi nority bent on improving the province, and promoting Bri tish interests—the French majority discountenancing every change. The best course would be, therefore, to consti tute, if possible a united legislature, in which the British interests would have the predominant influence, and which might gradually lay the foundation of a flourishing and prosperous colony. As regarded the present Bill, he did not see that it by any means countenanced the inference that it would lay the foundation of a permanent Govern ment by the authority it temporarily established, or thin: it would in any way obstruct that project of union which must be the ultimate object. The Right Hon. Baronet spoke of the clause allowing the composition of taxes for munici- • pal purposes, and called the terms vague, but they were the terms used by the Special Council ; and when it was observed that Lord Durham had reported that the police of Quebec, for instance, was in a disgraceful state, surely there could be no difficulty in ascertaining to what pur poses the claim would apply. But if it were said that only when a particular want was pointed out it might be met, that was most certainly a large and liberal system of legis lation ; for in one month it might be reported that a par ticular street in a town required paving or lighting, and in the next month another street might be squally in want of improvement. So, with respect to the poorer of making regulations affecting the tenures not to be bioding till sanctioned by Parliament: it was true that it had been originally intended to confine this to Montreal, bat it had been deemed more for the public good that it should be general. With regard to the 4th clause, it was re quired in consequence of the doubts suggested with re ferrence to the Habeas Corpus Act in this country and in Canada. Most unfortunately it happened that the news papers had gone out to Canada with the account that two Noble and Learned Lords in this country had expressed a doubt on Sir W. Follett's proviso, whether persons could be detained, on charges of conspiracy or treason, without an instant trial, and that two of the Judges, in consideration, had acted on that doubt, to set which at rest was most de- sirable for the security of the colony. He (Lord J. Russell) was not disposed to be vexatiously tenacious as to particular clauses; but the Right Hon. Baronet had not stated what alterations he required. However he (Lord J. Russell) had nothing to complain of in the course which the :Right Hon. Baronet had on this occasion taken as inimical to that just authority, without which the interests of the Crown cannot be upheld in the colony.--( Hear, hear.) Sir R. PEEL explained. He did not wish to limit the pip - poses for which taxation was to be allowed to zerticu— lar towns, &c., lighting and paring, for example, might be presumed to be required by all. Mr. C. BULLER could not see the propriety of look ing to the particular clauses in the Bill. He argued, how ever, in the objection to the 4th clause,. and wished it to be observed that the question of tenures was differently situated in Montreal from the rest of the cclony. He was sorry the Government had not adopted dine plan recom mended by the Special Council. He ( Mr. Buller) did not concur in the oljections made by the Right Hon. Baro net to the 3d chute and the increased power of taatiort. The objections, if tenable, would apply with greater force to any other colony than the colony of Lower Cltkut:da. The revenue of Lower Canada was 140,0001., the expeik - e of the Government was 60,000 L, the remainder went towards the improvement of the colony.—( Hear, hear.) He understood that cheer from the Right Hon. Baronet and the Noble Lord—they would any, if you have so much money, why do you ask for an additional power to raise money ? But there was the expense of providing a police, enforcing the performance of the quarantine, &c. Another thing wanted in Lower Canada was a Re gistry-office, and there were many other reasons why the Government of the colony should have the power of raising money by taxation. He would advert to the question more immediately under the consideration of the House. The Hon. Baronet ap peared to have had an ardent desire for legislation for Canada, but had always been prevented. He was sorry his Hon. Friend had brought forward his mot: on at a period of the Session when it was impossible it could have any practical effect, and when any vote that might be given would be merely an expression of opinion ; for it appeared to him that they were inflicting great injury on Canada by the course that had been pursued—giving indica tions of change, but not acting on them at all. The consequences of the delay which had taken place were very mischievous, for the general impression was•that Parliament, having considered the case, thought no remedy necessary, or else that they could find no remedy. One advantage of the debate to-night had been that the Noble Lord had avowed the true reason of the delay—(Hear)— namely, that the cause of the inaction of the Government was the state of parties in this country.—(Hear.) He did not think this was calculated to rase the House in the opinion of the country, or to raise the hopes of the people