The Sun. — London, England, 1836-03-16 00:00:00

the recovery of the men'', and thus his right to them might 1)e tried. Mr. WAKLEY rose amidst cries of " Question." He never had, and never would, advocate breaches of the law. But 400 persons had been committed to prison for selling what had not been proved to be newspapers. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that Cleave had been convicted by a jury for selling unstamped newspapers. Mr. WAKLEY denied that the papers seized by the police were of the same character. Mr. ROEBUCK begged to ask the Attorney-General a question. A person named Reeve had been searched by the police, who demanded to see the contents of a bundle, which Reeve refused; upon which the police attempted to take the bundle by force, and Reeve, in his own defence, knocked the constable down ; for this offence he was brought before a magistrate, who committed him for three months to the House of Correction, when he was subjected to every species of bad treatment. Now he (Mr. R.) begged to ask his Majesty Attorney-General whether this was in accordance with the feelings of the peo;tle of England, or whether it was in accord, ance with the spirit of British law The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replie I that the conic tion was perfectly lwal, being under the 27th sec. of 9th George IV. MEXICO AND SPAIN. Lord MAHON begged leave to ask of tee Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whether he had received any official infor mation with respect to the termination of the negoe tions be tween Spain and Mexico for a settlement of their disputes. It was a question of very great importance to this country, in a com mercial point of view, and he had hoped that the great influ ence of the Noble Lord in Spain would have been exerted, in order to have the question settled. Lord PALMERSTON said.the -Government of which the Noble Lord was a Member was not more anxious for the set. tlement of the question than was the Government now in power. —( Hear, hear.) As far as it was possible for the Minister of Great Britain to interfere, by using his friendly offices with both sides, Mr. Villiers had done, and he had acted in strict accordance with the orders of the Government. They were not parties to the transaction, and therefore they could att merely as friends of both parties. He had no reason to believe that the negociations were broken off. The Spanish Govern. merit had not taken the matter into their own hands, but had referred it to the Cortes. The dissolution of that body bad interfered with the negociations, but he had good reason to believe that when they wain assembled they would be renewed. MURDERS IN SPAIN. Sir ROBERT PEEL said he wished to ask the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, a question respect ing an account which he had read in the public newspapers, viz. that the wife or mother of Cabrera, as officer in the service of Don Carlos, had been shot on account of some offence, taken with the acts of her husband under the direction of an officer in the pay, and commissioned by the Spanish Government.. He wished to know if this were true? Lord PALMERSTON was very much afraid that such was the fact. He had no official information, but he had heard it by a priva'e letter, and he believed there could not be much doubt on the subject.—( Hear, hear.) The account he had received was that this diabolical atrocity had been cr,mmitted, and the consequence was that Cabrera had shot the wives of four Spanish officers in the service of the Queen, of Spain. NEWSPAPER STAMPS. Mr. WAK LE Y said, before the House went into a Commit tee of Supply, he begged to present some petitions praying for the total repeal of the Stamp Duty on Newspapers. The HON. MEMBER then brought a large bundle of petitions to the table, and was followed by Mr. Roebuck with another im mense bundle of petitions from Norwich, Bath, and several other places, the names of which we could not catch, to the same effect. The House became instantly a scene of the greatest animation, Hon. Members standing up in every direc tion, and claiming to be heard, amidst laughter and cheering on both sifles. _ _ Dr. BOWRING presented petitions from South Shields, Dover, and Portpatrick. Mr. GROTE presented a petition from the Cityof London, agreed to at one of the largest meetings he had ever seen assembled in the Guildhall ; one from 200 shipwrights con nected with the River Thames; and one from 300 inhabitants of Drogheda. Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON prese ited several pe t itions to the like effect. Mr. BAINES presented a petition from Leeds, sgned by 20,000 persons for the entire abolition of the Newspaper Stamps. Similar petitions were presented by Mr. Phillips from Man chester, and other places by Mr. Charles Wood, and by Mr. Barnard, from the Southwark Radical Association.—( Much laughter.) If there were not such an immense number of pe titions to be presented he would request that the petition should be read at full length.— (Liughter, and cries of "Oh, oh.") Mr HOWARD presented a petition from Carlisle to the same effect ; also another, from the parish of Staines, with a similar prayer. Colonel THOMPSON presented a petition from Hull, numerously signed, to the same effect. Mr. WILLIAMS presented three petitions from different places to the same effect. Mr. WALLACE presented five petitions, the first from the Hon. Member's constituents in Glasgow—the others from different places in Scotland, all praying for the total repeal of the duty on Newspapers, in which he heartily concurred. Mr. E WART presented a similar petition from Liverpool. Mr. HARVEY said he had a petition to present on the same subject, but could not consign it to that ignominious bourne from which no petition returns, without adverting to a rumour which had reached him that all these petitions, which were for a " total repeal" of the Stamp Duty, were to be thrown away. He had been told, for he had not attended the Downing-street Parliament, that the Government had re solved upon disregarding tlcese petitions by reducing, and not abolishing, the Stamp Duties. Such a conclusion he appre hended could only have been arrived at in the absence of all knowledge of public opinion upon this subject, and he, there fore, trusted that after such a manifestation as bad just been made, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be prepared to defer the consideration of this subject, until he could bestow upon these petitions the attention to which they were entitled. Mr. WAKLE Y said that in moving that the House do re solve itself into a Committee on the Stamp Bill, he should take the opportunity of expressing his perfoct concurrence in what had fallen from his Hon. Friend, and his hope that the Chancollor of the Exchequer would, upon a little delibera tion, t e induced to do justice to the public, and consent, not to take off a portion, but to abolish the entire of the stamp duty. Should the Right Hon. Gentleman, however, not do so, ho should feel it his duty to press the House to a division. Afcer a few words from Mr. GOCLBURN and Mr. T. DUN COMM, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested that it might be the most convenient course if the lion. Member for Finsbury would consent to allow him (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) to state what were the intentions of the Government, and then take the discussion on his own motion when the subject of the Stamp Duty on Newspapers was regularly brought forward in the financial statement of the year. This he thought would be a much more convenient course than that proposed by the Hon. Member. Mr. WAKLE Y having consented to adopt this course, and the House having resolved itself into a Committee, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that with the permission of the House he should now proceed to state what was the course which his Majesty's Government intended to propose for the adoption of the House, and he wished the Committee to understand that the proposition he was about to bring forward, although referring principally to the Stamp-dj.ity, was by no. means specially pointed at that one subject. The proposition he was about to submit to the con sideration of the House was one of a much more enlarged kind ; and without at all wishing to undervalue the impor tance of the question of the Stamp-duty upon Newspapers, he night be permitted to observe, that his proprosition was one which would deserve the attention of the House if there were no Stamp-duty - whatever upon Newspapers. During the pe riod which has elapsed since the close of the war, there were very few prcceedings of that House more satisfactory, or, he might add, more beneficial, than those consolidations of the laws which had taken place at different times, under various . . Governments.—(Hear, hear.) If there were any one duty which more than another was incumbent on a Government— if there were any one duty which in times of peace and tran quillity it behoved them to perform—it was to make the laws clear and intelligible, especially when they involved questions of interference with trade, restrictions upon property, and pe nalties for the commission' or omission of certain acts. There had been of late a consolidation effected in our criminal laws, commenced under the auspices of the Right Hon. Baronet whom he did not see to his place (Sir Robert Peel), and to a certain extent a consolidation of the revenue laws ; and he had no doubt,' when, he stated to the Committee the state in which the Stamp-laws at present were, they would agree, with hint that it was most desirable there should be also a consolidation of these. At present the laws relating to stamps were distributed over 150 statutes--some relating to Ireland, some to England, and some to Scotland—without order or method, exhibiting a farrago of legislation, in which the most subtle lawyer frequently found himself entangled, and by which the unfortunate victim found himself subjected to penalties.—( Hear, hear.) These statutes originated in the reign of Charles IL, and from that time to the present, the system of legislating with respect to these Acts had greatly added to the confusion 'to which he had adverted. A party wishing to refer to them was obliged to refer, not through the title " Stamp," but through some other titles, or through some other class of Acts not having the slightest connection with that upon which he was seeking information. He should refer to the 10th of Anne, one of the earliest of these Acts, as being strongly characteristic of the style of legislation of that day. That Act referred to the duty on tea, coffee, on cocoa, and rice, and it also referred to Mary Beecham —(Laughter and hear, hear). Now, what connection had this with the sub ject of the statute ?—( Hear, hear.) Now it was his intention 9 f those 150 statutes,- one statute sh ou ld to propose that instead contain the entire of the Stamp-laws of the country, with two slight exceptions, the Acts which referred to stage-coaches sad the licenses of hawkers. These two Acts had been al ready to a certain extent consolidated. But with respect to all the others, he should move their total repeal.—( Hear. ) The single statute he should propose as a substitute would be, he was sorry to say, extremely lengthy, extending to no less than three hundred and thirty sections. He should, however, propose them one in connection with another, admit ting no irrelevant matter into the Act, and would compress into this one statute the entire body of the laws relating to Stamps.—( Hear.) One reason why he did not interfere with the law relating to stage-coaches was, that he had been re quested not to do so by a very respectable class of persons— the innkeepers who were engaged in this trade. He trusted, however, that lie should be enatled to put an end to the system of farming post-horses, which was a re li c of antiquated barba rism. His object at present, however, was to render the pre-s sent cede of laws which related to „Stamps len complicated than they were at present, , The tas k of doing this was cer tainly_ one of no littre difficulty, of which Hon. Members minht form 'tbtne estimate, when they recollected the multi foiol.lS topics embraced in these laws—stamps upon attereeyl' accounts, laws relating to coals, tp gold en',.. 7iliver, insurances, protests, receipts, newst - npeTh, and a variety of others. To deal with such a re.blz6.'et was a task of very great difficulty for any Minista—(Hear)—and in asking lion. Members to consent to his proposition, be was not asking thenvto abandon any theory of their own, but simply to aid him ht rartying fin the Wettt of consolidation, upon the advantage of which be pi . esilined there cauld be no difference of opinion: Honotirable Members might be disposed to advocate the entire aliolitiod of the Stamp Duty; but that, he trusted, would be no ground for their opposing the consolidation of the Stamp laws. It was perfectly evident, that in the introduction of an Act o? Par liament, containing 330 section., eed embracing such a vast variety of subjects as these he had referred to, if the House 7.as called upon to discuss the policy of each separate sub ject, and the propriety of making specific alterations in them, the work of consolidation could not possibly go on, and no Minister would venture to take a step which would involve him in such difficulties —( Hear, hear.) He trusted he was not unreasonable in expecting. that the same degree of indulgence and assistance would be given to him in enleavouring to effect so important an improvement as the consolidation of the stamp laws, as was given to others whilst effecting similar improve ments in other branches of the law. He did not mean to say that any Hon. Member who would support him in this pro position would be, by so doing, abandonipg his opinion re specting the propriety of greatly reducing or altogether abo lishing the Stamp Duties. They were different subjects—one of which might be supported, whilst the other was opposed by the same lion. Member. The objection, for instance, to the advantage which landed- property possessed over personal property,. by the present state of the Stamp Laws, was a Very legitimate subject for discussion at a future pet iod ; but it was not during the progress of a measure, the sole object of which was the consolidation of a branch of our law, that such a sub ject could be advantageously considered.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was not necessary in passing a Bill for the consolidation of the Acts that they should take every part into consideration, with a view to alteration or repeal. The Stamp Duty on news papers stood, however, on a different round from the other duies, because the lion. Member for Finsbury bad given no tice of a motion on the subject ; but lie had permitted him to make his statement to the House. The Hon. Member had apparently abandoned his own motion for a time, and had given way to him, so a% to enable him to lay on the table the new schedule. He felt much obliged to the Hon. Gentleman for pursuing the course which he had ; and he (the Chancellor of ... the Exchequer) promised him that on a future occasion, when the question could be better and more conveniently discussed, that he should not be disposed to avoid it. He could not ap proach the discussion of the subject, without recollecting the discussion which took place on a former occasion in that House ; and it was necessary for him to refer to it, because it might appear that he was acting inconsistently with the opi ons which he had laid down on that occasion. He alluded to what he had said' in reply to the late Mr. Cobbett, when that gentleman brought the subject forward. Some few ses sions back that gentleman brought forward the subject of the Stamp Duties, in a speech of great ingenuity , which, in deed, he always possessed and manifested, but, at the same time, with great powers of exaggeration, in which he was very often in the habit of indulging. Honourable Gentlemen would recollect that, on that occasion, so far from approving of the state of the law, that he then pledged himself, on the part of his Noble Friend (Lord Spencer), who was at the time Chancellor of the Exchequer , that a Bill should be prepared and brought in, to get rid of the evils complained of. This would have been done long since, but for the pressure of pub lic business ; but he was now prepared to redeem the pledge he had formerly made. He was not prepared to bring for ward a measure to meet those exaggerated cases which haul been stated by the late member for Oldham, but to take those cases of real grievance which manifestly existed, and apply what he trusted would prove to be an adequate remedy. It would be proper for him, in the statement which he was about to make, not to take an exaggerated view of the evils which arose from the inequality of the present system of Stamp Duties. His intention was to form his estimate on the mean amount of duty, and the mean amount of the sum on which it was charged. On the occasion to which he had alluded, there had been a difference on this point between the Hon. Member for Oldham and himself, and he certainly should avoid falling into an error of which he had complained. If the House saw that in the present state of things, as regarded the► Stamp Duties, there was a great and crying injustice, he trusted that Hon. Members would go with him to provide an adequate remedy.—( Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen were aware that under the present system a certain sum was paid as a Stamp Duty on bonds and mort gages according to a certain scale. For instance, there was a certain charge made as from 30/. to 1001., and again from 5001. to 1,0001., as described in the scale. But it ap peared from this scale of duty—taking the mean payments — that it worked out an injustice. Looking at the scale, it would appear that a larger proportionate amount of duty was paid on a smaller amount of property ; or that a smaller proportionate duty was paid on the larger amount. That was, that there was a larger proportionate charge on a smaller than on a larger property. In fact, then—but not to the extent stated by the Hon. Member for Oldham—the heavier tax fell on the smaller i• holder of property, and consequently less on the larger pos sessor. For instance, he would take the taxes on conveyancing, and he found that the duty paid on property of less value than 201. was 5/. per cent., and between► 20/. and 501. the duty was reduced to 21. 17s. Id. per cent. ; but when they rose in the scale, they were still more struck with the inequality of charge, for on sums between 4,0001. and 5,0001. the charge was only ss. per cent.—(Hear, hear.) The duty in the decreasing scale went much farther, and in addition to this, the same duty was charged on all property between 60,0001. and 80,000/. ; consequently, there was no charge on the sum between 60,000/. and 79,999/. He would proceed to bonds : the duty paid on bonds of 2501. was 41. per cent. ; on those above 5,0001. the duty was reduced to ss. 4d. per cent. ; and in bonds above 12,500/., it was reduced to 2s. 4d. per cent. The scale stopped at 20,000/. ; therefore the bond for 40,0001. was sub- ject to the same duty as that of 20,000/.—(Hear, hear.) The state of law on this point was inconsistent With justice, and he was sure that the House would not - allow it to continue as it was, unless it was found that no remedy could be applied. From the statement he had made, it would appear that the duty on a bond for 40,0001. would be about ls. 3d. per cent., on a bond for 4,0001., it amounted to 41. per cent. on one of 1,0001. it was increased to 20s. per cent., and on one of 100/. it would be 30s. per cent.---( Hear, hear.) He need hardly go through a lengthened detairon this subject, because Hon." Gentlemen would see at once, from what he had stated, that the facts of the case were perfectly consistent with the argu ments he held. He would now give an example of what he proposed as a remedy for the evils of this system. He would take conveyancing :--On smaller sums the duty was 5/. per cent., and sums between 1,0001. and 2,000/. were subject to the charge of only 16s. per cent. He proposed, then, to take the general average, and make one uniform charge. As for taking a fluctuating scale, he thought it would be extremely doubtful whether they could frame one that would not be liable to objections. lie should propose, therefore, that they should take a uniform scale of one per cent. on all deeds of this description. He did not think that this change would produce an addition to the amount of taxation.- The amount would be, as nearly as possible, the same ; but relief would be afforded as regarded the smaller conveyances, and, therefore, probably, to the holders of smaller property. The approach to the principle adopted in this instance would run through much of the Bill which he should have to introduce on this subject, By pursuing, then, this course, they would avoid difficulties which would often arise, for there would be no conflicting opinions as to charge, but there would be a simpler formula at the head of each subject in the sche • dule. This principle would also apply to probates of wills, and he would now shortly call the attention of the House to the great alterations he proposed in this branch of the subject. By the law as it stood in cases of property going by descent, the duty was calculated on the gross value of the property. This state of things often led to the infliction of great hardship and to very considerable inconvenience, because as the law stood the duty was charged to the gross amount of property. The person administering to the will was entitled to claim from the Government a proportionate deduction for the debts of the deeedsed which he paid, and this was to be taken out of the sum previously paid as probate duty. This was a com plicated system, and was not just on the part of the State un less it was absolutely necessary for the collection of the re venue. He did not think this was the case ; for instance, if an estate was insolvent the administrator was called upon to advance the whole of the probate duty as if the estate was perfectly clear ; now he thought this system could be altered without affecting the revenue. He happened to know that there were cases of individuals who rather than go through the forms and regulations necessary at the Stamp Office did not come forward to administer, and abandoned their claims, and the revenue received what it was not entitled to. After having consulted a number of individuals, who were well acquainted with this system, he was prepared to say that lie had been enabled to frame an enactment by which indivi duals would not be compelled to pay what the State was not entitled to receive, and at the same time they would be able to protect the public revenue from loss and to give im mediate relief. In the discussion which had formerly taken place, there was no subject more than this that had made an impression upon him. His Right Honourable Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge, well knew that there was no subject connected with the Stamp Office respecting which so nrany complaints and applications were made to the Treasury as this. When, then, he knew that the result of the present system was to bring into the Exchequer more or less in proportion than the State was entitled to re ceive, he was bound to make an alteration of the law if he could safely do so.—( Hear, bear, hear.) He trusted that the arrangements which were intended would satisfactorily attain the object in view.---( Hear, hear.) He next came to a very important branch of the Stamp Duties—be meant the duties on bill stamps. The duty on bills as it at present existed, was divided into two classes ; namely, what were, called long bills and short bills. With respect to long bills he intended to propose no change whatever. He believed that the propor tionate charge on bills for small sums, as compared with those for larger sums, was unjust and unequal. He did not wish to give undue encouragement to bills forsmall sums ; but he could not help feeling that they departed from a sound and admira ble rule of fiscal regulation, in making a larger proportionate charge on bills for small than large amount. He therefore felt it to be his duty to endeavour to adjust this, and apply as well as he could, what he considered to be a good principle. Within late years a practice had grown up, which was somewhat an invasion of the duty on bills. He alluded to what was called letters of credit, which passed from hand to hand, and sometimes even passing by endorsement ; but this was not generally done, as persons were more cautious in doing that which was unquestionably an evasion of the law. • He believed, hoWeVer, that this • practic6' of sending letters of credit , was:. entirely to the present high arnoun of ddty: The oOtilitilttee Would pueekve that th'e'se.leli:thq-i bi Credit were never used for tl:e plirposes-for which bills of long date were . generally applica ble. They were never applied for the purpose of obtaming a postponement of the period of payment, which was chiefly the use of bills of long date. To put a stop to this system, he intended to introduce a tipvi 80,10 iti thibli hts ffoptistd thnt OfaViit fOr iiut more than seven days' date Should ba ! - ri - clUded. These bills would be chiefly drawn for the pur pose of remittance, and he intended that on this new class of bills the duty should be very light, indeed, scarcely more than nominal.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that there could be no doubt that persons who were parties to these letters of credit were liable to punishment for the evasion of the Stamp Duty ; and he had no doubt that what he now proposed would prove an adequate remedy to the present system; and while it put a atop to these letters of credit on the one hand, it would afford accommodation to the. parties who at pre sent largely used them. lie had communicated with many parties on this point, and he believed that instead of what he suggested being regarded as a hardship, that it would be considered a benefit. There were several other altera tions which be intended to propose, but which it would not be necessary for him now to dwell upon at length. For instance, he - intended to propose an alter - ation on a point respecting which they had much been called upon by various classes of the community ; he alluded to the Stamp Duty now levied on apprentices' indentures—(hear, hear)—and he thoight that a reduction in this tax ,would be IKieficial.— (Hear, hear.) At the present moment, when there was 110 premium, or when there was one of less than 10/., the duty charged on the indenture was 20s. He did not feel himself called upon to enter upon a discussion of the law of appren ticeship, or on the expediency of the present system; but felt that as long as it was on the statute-book, they should afford facilities to persons to make engagements of the kind. He propbsed, therefore, that in all cases where the• premium was less than 201., the duty payable should be 55., and that in all other cases the Stamp Duty shoal be 20s. He intended to propose a reduction of the S;amp Duty on bills of lading from 6s. to 35., and the Stamp Duty on charter-parties from 365. to ss. With respect to leases, he also intended to pro pose a very great alteration, one which he hoped and believed would be found to be very beneficial in many districts. In many parts of England there were very few or no leases, but in other parts the principle of granting leases was largely acted upon. In the western and . northern parts of England this was the case to a very great extent. The present rate of Stamp Duty, however, on leases, operated in many places almost to the extent of discontinuing them. When, therefore, the rent was 201. and under, he proposed that the duty should be. reduced to 2s. 6d , when the rent was 2001., lie proposed that the duty should be 31. He also proposed to repeal the exemption which at present existed of the Stamp Duty on leases of three lives,- or on ecclesiastical leases, and to place them under the general state of the law, and under the same principles that applied to other leases. He also pro posed that administration bonds, which were now subject to a Stamp Duty of 205., should only be liable to a 55.• Stamp Duty. He did not think that the revenue would lose anything by any of these alterations. He believed that the large amount of Stamp Duty charged at present, instead of bringing any thing to the revenue, had directly the contrary result. When he found that the taxes were so high that persons rather than pay them proceeded in a course which might affect their rights, he felt that it was not consistent with sound fiscal regulation to continue them in their present high state. When he said this also, he was impressed with the feeling that the reduction of the Stamp Duty would not be attended with a loss of re venue. He also intended to recommend that there should be some reductions in the discounts now allowed, which would occasion a saving. The discount which was allowed on the stamp on administration, which very rarely went into the pocket of the public, but which generally fell to professional men, was very great. He intended to propose that the allowance of this should be put a stop to. By this, he believed, that a saving would be effected to the amount of between 10,000/. and 20,0001. He intended also to follow up a principle which had been acted upon by his Noble. Friend (Lord Spencer) when he took the duty off insurances of farming stock. H e (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) intended to carry out the principle, by proposing the abolition of the duty on in surances on farming buildings.—(Hear, hear.) This had been much urged upon him, and he saw very strong reasons which induced him to yield to the requests made, as he felt that it would afford relief to a class of persons who had a just claim to it. He knew that by following this course heps posed himself to some degree of sneering. ;It was of;etilhe case that the person in his situation, by yielding to these pressing requests, did not escape censure. He recollected that the duty on taxed carts was much pressed on him, and he was constantly urged to propose its repeal, and which it length he did. Again, on another occasion, the duty on tiles was taken off, in consequence of the duty on slates having previously been remitted. The budgets, however, in which these changes had been proposed, had been styled the tile budget, the taxed cart budget ; and one budget obtained the name of the shepherds' dog budget.—( A laugh.) He did not object to a laugh, and certainly this would not induce him to give relief on such a ground as this. He trusted that the House would not be alarmed at the supposition that he intended to propose an increase of taxation. When be looked through the schedule he did not find that there was the least probability that an increase of taxation would arise, except so far as what might result from an improved system. In several instances he proposed that there should be a less taxation on sums under a certain amount, and he did not think that with regard to the proposed scale of duties either the 'House or the country was entitled to quarrel with him. The present system was evidently unfair as regarded one end of the scale ; and he felt that he did no more than an act of justice in attempting to equalise the charge.— (Hear, hear.) He was sure that getting rid of the evil of the present system was much more than a compensation to the public for any apparent increase there .might be. He intended therf, to repeal the present schedule of the Stamp Duties, with the consent of the House, and to propose another which would be printed and introduced in a Bill, and after Easter, when the subject had been considered throughout the country, he would proceed with it. If, however, it was the intention of any Honourable Member to propose an increase of the duties, it would be necessary again to go into a general committee on the Stamp Acts ; for, although it was open to any Honourable Gentleman to make a motion for a reduction of the duty on the committal of the Bill, he could not, at that stage, propose an increase of the duty. If, therefore, any Honourable Gen tleman wished to signalise himself in the House by proposing an increase of taxation, he must do so for the edification of him self and the amusement of the House, in a general committee. He would again urge the ground he had taken with reference is the motion made a few nights ago by his Hon. Friend the Member for Exeter. From the opinion which he bad then expressed, he d:d not now feel disposed to depart. lie said to the House that it was not just or right that the question of taxation should be brought forward by detail, and each mat ter taken separately, but that it should be regarded as a col lected whole, and considered as having reference to the inte rests of•all classes, and not as merely having reference to the in terests of licensed victuallers on the one hand, or the great soap and tallow interest on the other.—( A laugh.) The House should not be called upon to vote for a motion on tax ation in detail, but Honourable Gentlemen should allow the Government to bring forward its plan and consider the subject as a whole, and to hear what was the amount of the surplus revenue, and it would then be for the Par liament to dispose of it in the manner which it thought most advisable. He did not think that it would be expedient to introduce on that occasion subjects involving considerations of the utmost importance, and having no immediate relation to the matter before them. He felt that he should not be justi fied in the introduction of a Bill for the consolidation of the Stamp duties, to state those matters which were likely to ex cite a discussion on a subject not only deeply interesting to England, but also to Scotland and Ireland. But he was anxious that the details of the measure should be made known throughout the country before the House was called upon to give a decided opinioc. He considered that this was con sistent with the principle which be had laid down, and which he had argued to the satisfaction of the majority of the House on the motion of the Hon. Member for Exeter. He would notithen do more than ask the House not to pledge itself to a matter of principle until he brought forward the whole sub ject connected with the finance of the country. On the subject of the Newspaper Stamps it was not his intention to ask the House to pledge itself, but he thought it was but fair and just and candid to those who advocated the total abolition of the newspaper tax, as well as to those who differed from them, to state what he intended to propose on this subject in April next. He did not at present mean to argue the question, but he would merely state the outline of the plan, which Hon. Gentlemen would wish to have time to consider, and which he should have to propose in April, when they would be called upon either to adopt or reject it. He could not hold out to the Honourable Member behind him, for whom he enter tained feelings of the greatest respect, a promise to come for ward with a propositionsfor a total repeal of the newspaper stamp duty. He could not make such a proposition to the House, nor did he think that if he made it, the House would acquiesce in it. Certainly the fear of the non-acquiescence of the house in a proposition would not be sufficient to induce him to withhold from bringing it forward if it was conformable with his own feelings, and if lie thought that the public ser vice would be promoted by it. But he did not think that it would be just on a financial ground to make such a proposition, as well as on other considerations. The present Stamp Duty on Newspapers, as Hon. Gentlemen were aware, was 4d., mi nus a discount of 20 per cent. When he was called upon to reduce the whore of this duty, he would ask did not the State do something for Newspapers?—( Hear, hear.) The State undertook the duty of conveying Newspapers, free of postage, to all parts of the country, therefore a certain portion of the present Stamp Duty should be regarded in the light of pay ment for services rendered, rather than in the shape of a tax. —( Hear, hear.) Indeed this part of the subject had made such an impression on the minds of many Hon. Gentlemen who had attended to it, that they recommended, as a substitute for a Stamp Duty, a postage duty: This had often been suggested : but, after the fullest consideration that he had been able to give the subject, he was satisfied that the plan would be found to be impracticable—( Hear, hear) — because he Believed that by casting on the Post-office the duty of levying this charge, and all the consequent duties which would be round to proceed from the state of the law, that it would materially interfere with the general correspondbnce of the country. He said that the Stamp duty 'should be regarded partly as a tax, and partly as as the pay ment for the postage, and this opinion he was prepared to maintain. He must also say that he thought he should act un justly that because he lived in London, he should be able to ob tain information free from duty, while those at distant and re mote districts would have to pay largely for it. He intended, therefore, to propose that there should be a stamp-duty of On a newspaper inMead of the present one of 4d.—(Hear? hear:) He woultl argue the Sidestiori fihly against lion fieralbtecti beliiiid hire; and Weilld 0:8 slip question lrt all lig bearins ) and lie would 'Make the best ease he &kild egainit the extreme views entertained on the subject; and he trusted that the House would go with him to the extent he proposed, which at present he admitted, was a crying evil.—(llear, bear.) He could not help adverting to the state of the law which had been alluded to by an Hon. and Learned Friend in the edfly part *et thb et efiltisk, s t'datlng on personal liberty, Ile stated last year, that as long as the law was in i 1.4 rfaelit condition, no effort of his should be wanting to administer it for the protection of those who had embarked their capital in Newspapers. The Hon. Member for Finsbury, much-to his honour, said that he never would sanction a breach of the law ; but he lassgged the Hon: Menthes to recollect that it was his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) bounden duty to en forte the lair When he knew thdt the breadt or it, Was to the detriment and injury of other individuals who 'sub mitted to it.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Ile had been sub jected to many attacks for enforcing the law ; but while he felt it to be his duty to enforce it, he regretted the state of it, and intended to take that course which he thought would prove a remedy.—( Hear, hear.) He felt *satisfied that as long as there was a high duty on Newspapers, and ever. when they made the law as stringent as they possibly could, they could not effec tually put down the breach of it on this point, without looking to the cause which produced it. This subject was brought under discussion last session by his Hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln, who made a' proposition similar to that which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was now ready to recom mend to the House. He believed that his Honourable Friend proposed that the Stamp Duty should be reduced to one penny. Ile then argued as he now did, that he could not defend the state of the law ; but that, in the then state of the finances of the country, he wss not able to propose the alteration re quired. In April the subject would be brought under the at tention Of the House, when he should ba able to make a con cession without any great sacrifice, as regarded the financial state of the country ; and when he should be acting in confor mity with the pledge which he gave to his Hon. Friend and the House, and acting as be said that he would under the cir cumstances of the case. He had nothing more to trouble the House with on the subject of Newspapers. An HOB. MEMBER asked the Right Hon. Gentleman a question respecting the probate duty, which was inaudible in the gallery. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that the great - alterations which he proposed with respect to the descent of property was to charge the duty at once on the net value, and not on the gross amount.—(Hear, hear.) He was sure that there would be no objection to the change which he proposcd.—( Hear, hear.) There was one new tax in the Bill, or rather it was a slight extension of the law as it stood. That was the transfer duty on shares of joint stock companies. If they were transferred for a valuable consideration, there was an immediate charge. He did not propose to meddle with this, but lie intended to add a very small ad valorem tax on the first issue of the shares.—( Hear, hear.) He did not wish to make this tax interfere with any mobil projects. No one was less opposed than he. was to the exertions of capitalists for objects which often were of national import, and lie felt bovnd to say, that but for these companies, many of the most impor tant undertakings that had had such important and beneficial effects on the country would never have been carried into ope ration.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he said he had no wish to interfere with them ; but he did not conceive that the small duty which he intended to propose would be considered ob jectionable on that ground. Certainly he did not conceive thdt it would operate in any degree to check any useful under taking, but it might have some slight effect in transactions of a different kind.—(Hear, hear.) He alluded to those shares which were brought into the market when ten or fifteen shillings had been paid on them, and which were ad vanced to a premium, and which were often matter of collu sion.—( Hear, hear.) His proposal, therefore, would be for the benefit or parties wishing to engage in bond fide tranFac. tions.—( Hear, hear.) He was sure that in bad projects which were occasionally brought forward, the parties doing so were not very chary as to the means they resorted to to impose on the unwary, and what he proposed he believed would be a check . on such persons. In addition to this it would provide a register of the names of the parties, and the House could resort to it to see that the standing orders were really complied with when an Act was called for. He repeated that he should be sorry to have it supposed that he wished to check the exertions of capitalists in great undertakings; but he wished to protect and guard the public against projects which the proposers never intended to carry into effect.—( Hear, hear.) He trusted that the House would not see any reason to object to the proposition he had to make on this point.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to Ireland he would observe, that the Stamp duties there were much lower than they were in England. On taking the average proportion he found that the English were to the Irish duties as two to one. He proposed to adhere strictly to this arrange ment, with the exception of the Newspaper stamps, which he intended to recommend should be placed on an uniforin duty in all parts of the empire. He should neglect his duty if he did not acknowledge what was due to his predecessors in office with regard to the arrangements on this subject. He was also bound to acknowledge the assistance rendered by the gentle men of the Stamp-office, and more especially by Mr. Timbs. It had fallen to him to make the statement, and he should have to introduce a Bill which would embody the charges and regulations be proposed, which he believed would be satisfac tory to the public, and he trusted that it would afford adequate and sufficient relief. He could not conclude without saying that he felt much indebted to the efficient assistance rendered to him in the details of this measure by his Hon. Friend the Member for Newport (Mr. W. H. Ord) ; when be was en gaged and could not enter at length into the considerations of this subject, his HOn. Friend directed himself to it with as much advantage to the country as to his own character.— ( Hear, hear.) He trusted that he should be allowed to let the Bill stand over, and that the discussion might be taken in a future stage, and in the meantime it would be circulated throughout the country.--(Hear, hear.) The CHAIRMAN then put the first resolution—" That the several stamp duties, allowances, and drawbacks now in force shall be repealed, and that in lieu thereof the several stamp duties, &c., named in the schedule hereinafter recited, shall be put in force." Mr. GOULBURN quite concurred with the Right Hon. Gentleman, as to the advantages resulting from that judicious system of consolidation which had been originated by the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth in the criminal laws of the country, which he had consolidated. • In 1830, when he (Mr. Goulburn) had the honour of filling the situation now occupied by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, he had with great care prepared a Bill for consolidating the numerous statutes relative to the Stamp duties, at that time amounting to 161, which number, it now appeared, was somewhat reduced. Hav ing carefully prepared this Bill, he had had it printed, and it was immediately afterwards submitted to the consideration of the House. That schedule of duties proposed for consolida tion was, however, in many respects materially different from the one now proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. That Right Hon. Gentleman had all the advantage over him (Mr. Goulburn) of .a much longer interval of peace, which natu rally put at his disposal a much larger amount of funds than he (Mr. Goulburn) had had to deal with ; and this circum stance, of course, enabled him to propose a greater re duction than could by possibility be afforded at the former period. This put the Right Hon. Gentleman in a much more fortunate position. The preserfgelan was to consolidate all the Stamp Acts into one general Act, extending to 330 sec tions. The one which he proposed contemplated the arrange ment of the consolidated duties into ten distinct branches, com prehending within each all the various statutes which came within the scope of the respective branches of duties. This arrangement, lie thought, would have offered very great facili ties to all parties, in searching out and clearly understanding the nature of the law upon the several particular points. This, he thought, would have been a much more useful and conve nient arrangement than the present. The branches into which he heti intended to divide his schedule of consolidated duties were ten in number :—the first relating to Starap duties on deeds and instruments ; the second to those on bills of exchange and promissory notes; the third to those on probates of wills and letters of administration; the fourth to those on Newspapers; the fifth to those on cards and dice ; the sixth to those on gold and silver plate ; the seventh to those on hawkers and pedlars ; the eighth to these on stage coaches and post horses ; the ninth to proceedings in courts of law and equity in Ireland, and the last to those on game certificates. Such an arrangement as this, he thought, would have been a much more convenient one than the proposed plan. Indeed, to term the proposed very lengthy schedule a consolidation, seemed to him very much like the idea of abridgment entertained by a legal friend of his, who in his youth set about an abridgment of " Blackstone's Commen taries," which he so managed, however, that while the work itself extends to four volume octavo, the abridgment ran to twenty volumes folio.—(A laugh. and the question from some Hon. Member, " Was this an Irish friend ?") No, an Eng lish one. Further, lie thought that before the Right Hon. Gentleman introduced this schedule, involving as it did a very considerable reduction of the duty on one article, if not on more than one, lie should have followed the example -set by him (Mr. .Goulburn) in 1.530, by first laying before the House a statement of the income and expenditure of the country.— ( Hear, hear, from the OppoSition benches.) For see to what the Right Hon. Gentleman exposed himself by a con trary couse. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had ex pressly stated that he thought it wrong in principle to reduce any particular tax until all the claims from various interests for the reduction of the taxes which they respectively most felt were •brought together before the House, or until the House were made acquainted with the extent of the disposable surplus. This was what the Right Honourable Gentleman had stated, yet at the same time he had intimated to the House that he stood pledged to the particular interest de siring reduction of the Stamp Duties on Newspapers. The Right Honourable Gentleman professed his wish to leave every question open until - the House was made acquainted with a the as toa n circumstancessrpl u s revenue o the r f en revenuenehad been given, a ; yet, although ndalthough informa tion te claims of the various interests for relief had not been brought to' 2ther before the House, the Right Hon. Gentleman i t n ha th t c h s e t a a v m as p p ro le n d t r e e s d on to Ne m w a s k p e ape a r v s, er n y t reducti on i u n s t e o the Treasury an annual amount of considerablequ presentie t ly tolbringing h e il b 400,000/.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Mr. Goulburn) was not going at present to anything as to what he thought the result of this reduction would be ; but what he would say was, that the question ought to have been left quite open, or that the griev ances in reference to the Newspaper Stamp should not alone have been taken into consideration. That there were other grievances clearly appeared the other night from' the discus sion respecting spirit licences.--( Hear, hear.) He would now say a word or two as to the alteration of duties. There had been this great deficiency in the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, that while he talked about reductions, and alterations, and additions, to the various duties, he had not said a word about what he thought would be the probable gain or loss from those alterations and reductions. Upon the head (as was un derstood) of deeds, it was clear to him (Mr. Goulburn) that the eff..dt of les'serliog the amount of duties on smaller tranfae tiqrlo;iirtd 111(•eitting it du the birger, would be to materially di the whop' rev6iplte d y r?ved frerit this sdu.• ee.-- , 4 Hear.) With reference td ;lie cuitie4 cri pi:A:lt:if) . Of wills, no man who had ever filled the slitialiOn 1 - 4 f Chantellor of the Exche.ner but must be peculiarly aware et NV numer ous and extreme difficulties of obtaining a satisfactory settle. ment of the subject. Upon this head the Right Hon. Gen tletttart 11:1t1 ortiltted to point out by what course lie intended to supply the piegth.tt rtia(ltinery, or to . „(tuard against the nu merous evasions of this duty. 'the ifight lion. Chancellor s&d he did not intend to introduce more thin me new-object of taxation—namely, that upon the original share Which any person might take in ajoint-stock transaction. This was intro ducing quite a new principle.—( Hear, from the Opposition.) There had always been a duty upon the transferor such shares, but this was quite necessary. As to the proposed new duty, however; he was ready to say, that if it were very small in amount and only tended to facilitate the register of real shares, in order that parties might know who were actually embarked in the transaction, he could not at the present mo ment see any valid objection to it. If it were carried anything beyond tihat he had described, he was certain it would operate to a mischievous extent in checking the industry and the em ployment oceapital throughout the country. His future de cision on . this point, therefore, would depend entirely upon the amount of the duty imposed. 'There was another point upon which he wished to speak. It would be recollected, that at the time when lie had himself brought this subject be fore the Flonse, he proposed to introduce an equalisation of the Stamp Duties in •bothparts•of the United Kingdom—that the same rate of Stamp Duties should run through England and Ireland : —(Hear, hear.) lie could see no reason why one portion of a united empire should have a higher rate of duties levied upon it than was paid by the other.—(Hear.) He had , certainly expected, that after all the eloquent ha rangues with which the House had fur some time past been favoured, about assimilating everything in the two countries— he had certainly expected that the Right Hon. Gentleman, in connection with every other Hon. Member who had lately. been so loud in demanding equal justice and equal laws for Ireland, would on this occasion have arisen, and in the name of his countrymen have exclaime" Degrade us no longer by supposing that we are so poor at we cannot pay the same rase of Stamp duty which you Englishmen pay : let not this insult be perpetuated, but assimilate us in this, as in every. thing else, with our English brethren." But the Right Hon. Gentleman did not think it necessary to 'carry the assiolila thin to this extent. On the contrary, he expressly stated that his proposal was, that in Ireland there should be paid only one-half the amount of Stamp Duties levied in this country. He did not wish to be understood as making this an abstract matter of complaint or of objection, or of grudging the Irish nation such an advantage if they were in need of it • but he thought that, before it were proposed for the adoption of the House it should have been shown that there was such rr surplus revenue as would afford the propesed ad vantage to Ireland in addition to the great reduction de manded of the House in the Newspaper Stamp Duties. He thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman would greatly have facilitated to the House the proper understanding of the de. tails of his proposition, if he had followed the plan adopted by him (Mr. Goulburn) in 1830, of laying before the House, in his printed statement, in parallel columns, the rate of existing duties paid in different parts of the empire, and the rate of the duties proposed to be substituted for them. Again, the Right Hon. Gentleman, in stating that lie intended a reduction in the duties upon the lower classes of bills of exchange, had not made the least allusion to those on promissary notes, yet it seemed to him (Mr. Goulburn) that if it were important to reduce the duties on these, they ought in justice to deal in the same way with promissory notes.—( Hear.) In conclusion, he might observe, that he was far from being disposed to receive unkindly even the smallest reductions of duties at the hands of the Right Hon. Gentleman. And the Right Hon. Gentle man was mistaken in supposing that his taking off the duties on shepherds' dogs, taxed carts, and tiles, was received either unkindly or contemptuously as such. It was true that some laughter had been excited on the occasion of the reductions in question ; but-it was not at the reductions themselves, but at their being gravely, pompously given forth as constituting a wonderful boon to, and indeed almost a satisfaction in full of all demands of the agricultural interest.—( Hear, and a laugh.) He would only further observe, that lie quite concurred with the Right Hon. Gentleman in hoping that no one would avail himself of the opportunity presented by the immense number of duties set forth in the consolidation schedule, to found upon each of them an opportunity for extended or frivolous discus sion.—( Hear. ) Mr. E. BULWER should refrain from attempting to follow the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite through the details of the many wonderful things which he set forth as having been his intention to bless the nation with.—( A laugh.) Upon the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech he would only observe that it was quite in keeping with tall acts of his former public life, that though he had been ever opposed to the idea of giving to the Irish people an equality of British advantages. be was now most anxious to bestow upon her a full equality of British hard ships.—( Hear, hear.) Hor was it his (Mr. Bulwer's) inten tion to follow the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exche quer through the details of his very admirable, eloquent, and comprehensive speech ; he merely rose for the purpose of say ing a few words upon a subject in which he had himself been more particularly interested. He had been much blamed out of the House, and a little in it, for not pressing the House to a division on the last occasion that he had the honour of bringing forward the subject of the Stamp Duties on Newspa pers. His decision upon that occasion had been fouded upon his conviction, from the assurance then given by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that his object would be as fully satisfied without going to a division, as if it went successfully through that or several other divisions ; and in all probability more speedily. As to the proposed reduc tion of the newspaper Stamp Duties to Id. he was still dis tinctly of opinion that the entire abolition of them was far more desirable than any reduction, however large and liberal. —( Hear, hear.) But at the same time, as he knew and ac knowledged that every liberal measure was the result of com promise, he should not think of rejecting the proposal of the Right Hon. Gentleman, which under the circumstances he considered to be the best compromise which could be offered. —( Hear, hear.) He, h owe ver, should reserve to himself the full right of speaking further upon this subject, and of voting in a division as he should think fir. Mr. ORD begged to offer the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last his congratulations upon the near approximation which was proposed to be made to the object which that Hon. Gentle man had so eloquently advocated, when in a small minority upon the point. With reference to the Right Hon. Gentle man opposite, his proposal of placing in parallel columns the existing Stamp Duties and those proposed to be substituted, it would be impossible to act upon in the present case, from the nature of the sections. As to the Right lion. IP entle man's joke about the abridgement of Blackstone in twenty folio volumes, it applied much more aptly to the Rig* lion. Gentleman's own consolidation schedule than to the one now proposed. The schedule now proposed contained but 330 sections, while that of the Right Hon. Member extended to 456 sections, being thus more bulky by 126 sections than the present one. —( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Right Hon. Gentleman complained that his Right Hon. Friend the Chan • cellos of the Exchequer •had anticipated his budget, but the same course had been pursued on former 'occasions. Mr. T. DUNCOMB E rose to order. If the Government were to have leave to bring on'the 9overnment, orders to the exclusion of motions, and long discussions were to ensue upon them, it would be impossible for Gentlemen who had motions to make, ever to bring them forward.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He did not say this with the least wish to press his motion on the House ; he knew it would be defeated by a large majority— ( A laugh) ; nevertheless he would press it to a'llivision—but he asked the question with reference to other motions, and amongst them that of his Hon. Colleague, who had a motion on the paper for the total repeal of the Stamp Duty on News papers. He . was also favourable to the total repeal of that duty. The motion of his Hon. Colleague was made to give way, that the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer might make his statement, and the understanding was that no discussion should take place.—( Hear, hear, hear.) They could not prevent Hon. Gentlemen opposite from discussing the question if they pleased—it was a matter of taste for their consideration—and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge had gone into the question in a manner that rendered it impossible the debate could be put a stop to now unless he could prove that the spirit in which the subject was entered into had been violated by the Right Hon. Gentleman, by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer. and by the Hon. Gentleman who was one of the Lords of the Treasury. Mr. ORD would save the House the trouble of debating the question of order by resting on the statement of his Right Hon.. Friend to answer the objections which had been urged against it. The Hon. Gentleman then acknowledged the compliment which in so gratifying a manner had been 1 aid to him by his Right Hon. Friend. Mr. G OU LB U RN said his complaint was that the House would come to the discussion of this question, the Government being pledged to the reduction of the duty.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME expressed himself satisfied with the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as far as it went ; but he still entertained a hope, that at no very distant period, a new light would break in upon the Right Hon. Gentleman, and that he would become favourable to the entire repeal of the News paper tax. • Sir G. CLERK suggested to the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the present period would be a favourable opportunity to take into consideration the Act of last Session for regulating the assessing of taxes in Scotland. Mr. WA KLEY was not satisfied with the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, nor would his constituents be. He should certainly take an opportunity of dividing the House on the question as to the total repeal of the Newspaper Stamp duty. That impost was proposed originally by 10th Anne, for the purpose of putting down publications obnoxious to the Go vernment. He could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman that the general impression out of doors was, that the Stamp Tax was imposed in order that the Newspapers might not give po litical information. The people thought that the goings on in this House were such that the tax was imposed to prevent the people from coming to a knowledge of them.-4 Cries of " Oh !). The people required information, and why was it to be denied to them ? The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the case of Cleave, who was confined in Tothill-fields pri son for an alleged infraction of the Stamp Act. He never saw a more revolting sight than he witnessed last Friday, when he went to visit Cleave in prison. The 16th George 11. pro vided for the punishment of the " venders" of unstamped News papers. Mr. Cleave when he was seized had the papers in his bag in a cab. He was asked what he had in his posses sion, and he replied " Newspapers," he was not " vending" them. Who could say what description of paper came legally under that definition ? What was news ? People had no right to publish the debates of the House. Could they be called news? Lord Tenterden had decided that it was illegal 7 to public elide reports. Could they, then, be called n r v ,s s s ' i He thought these matters were subjec ts to which Minista ought to give their most seriona consideration• rinting t he Mr. GOULBURN urged the nece ssit y of p • bad been scales of taxation in parallel columns. No answer made to alit question. id Cu be The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sa would ei daavour to gat the lists made out in the most piste from. s led. The Holm then resumed, and the resolution was repo Mr. MILES presented a petition from Bristol for the peal of the Stamp Duties. SOAP AND TALIAIV DUTIES. t hat Mr. HANDLEY then moved a resolution to the effoe t 0 ., it teas expedient to repeal the excise duty on s oa p and te:%c nient the custom duties on foreign tallow. The parties io : behalf he now appeared, were unfortunatel t o o often excha'..,. from the financial operations of the Chancellor of the Excheqfler) from whatever side of the House he might come.—( A l ° ° ° His Majesty in his gracious spt , ech from the throne, ca lled on the House to direct a special inquiry into whatever meast,ll:f: might alleviate the distress of the agricultural districts. . I° l existence of great agricultural distress was well known , a v n e ` a iss character was not mitigated up to last year. He hF lie „ that the manufacturers and operatives had come to the nion that prices might be too low when accompanied ‘'):'‘ the distress of the agricultural classes. From 1810 to t 0 the average price of tallow was 735. per cwt. ; from 1 6 " . to 1830 it had fallen to 425. Independent of having to cor . tend with a low duty on tallow, and a large foreign s u P L I l e ) ,.: the soap manufacturer, who was perhaps their best i i ic h tomer, had to contend against a system of excis e w bt nothing but necessity would justify. What would be till of that system which debarred manufacturers born av al I° o ,l themselves of the improvements which chemical research discovery presented to them? The soap-manufacturers ?at: long been restricted from making use of such discoveries tnea were even now subject to the same restrictions as were itur s l e t ? in the reign of Queen Anne. And what w as the resa Thel e was smuggling to a great extent. Owing to there be:. no duty in Ireland; the smuggling from that country w as c ,.. , siderable ; the home manufacturer was unable to com pete an; the foreign producer ; and There was no export trade' a 5 shouldnow refer to the report of the Excise Commissio ners Ile to this subject; but before he opened that Pa ndora ha, r, would mention that the first recommendation o f the conaral_scf sinners was, that the duty should be extended to Ireland, a; the regulations be the same in both countries. H e C Ongry. g fated the Hon. and Learned Gentleman for Dublin 0; evenhanded justice was about, at length, to be d ealt Out the sister kingdom.—(Laughter, and Opposition cheera.) trusted that he should have the Hon. and Learned Gl° man's support. Either the Hon. and Learned Gentletaseee must vote for his motion this night, or he must submit t°_, t ,, his fair land trodden by a formidable phalanx o f soap-ati4; collecting excisemen.—(A laugh.) He suppo sed he "sis upon this occasion to be opposed by the Right H o n. the dent of the Board of Trade, whom he observed taking riot but it was to be remembered that that Right Hon. Gentle atti ; i g had proposed taking the duty off printed calicoes , a nd p it on cotton. In opposition to what he had heard proPosetid' o was conscious that it might no doubt be said, that it well' ate found a great inconvenience to Russia if they imposed a fire the duty upon tallow than what there was at this moment ul 3°- t er article ; that, in fact, Russia would not like to see a W.ea.,,s duty imposed. Now, he would say, that so far as Russla,"o,-- concerned, we took three times the amount of value from "' A s sia that she took from us.—( Hear, hear.) Russia inV se i, duty of 121 per cent. upon all our goods, and excluded gcther our refined sugars.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It see s rn t from the discussion of the other evening that nothing rra " . s; be done with regard to the spirit licenses, and that aven ues they found the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Excbeclach had bespoken a large portion of the Revenue. He very 111- , Te s doubted that so large a portion was allotted in a ataa t - ba quite congenial to the feelings of the moral population do country.—( Hear, and cheers from the Opposition.) n e gag now, with costs of collecting, was 600,000/. By imp ab le upon Russian tallow a duty of 10/. a ton, they wou ld be ate,„ to raise 320,000/., leaving 280,000/. to come out of the to plus. Ile was aware that what he proposed was calculat this raise the price of candles. That was the difficulty to case,, and the only one, he believed, against which be ht' el s contend. He should nowspnclude by moving, in the tel ° ata of his motion, " That it ispedient to repeal the exci se on soap, and to augment the customs' duties on fore i g n the low." After the motion had been read from the Chair' age Honourable Member changed it for one to the effect, that and House should resolve itself into a committee upon cost a ° , c ars excise, for the purpose of considering the pr6priety oou ing the duty on soap, and augmenting the cusiorns' chi t " foreign tallow. ns al Mr. HALFORD seconded the motion. The Plop the Hon. Gentleman was calculated to benefit the ag/ ral interests, and not only their interests, but, in his 01 3 ` 11 : 0 11 that of every other class of the community. He knew veil oe that they would hear of the impolicy of imposing a tax uP ° , u ; e al raw material. It was his opinion that free trade and put n o economy did not apply to such a subject as this. He ba ld for doubt that the small increase of duty which was now sous on the foreign article would increase the value of land -oat 30s. per acre— there would be an advance in the price to witu amount. He would say for himself that he was bound uP o f a the manufacturiug interest, and was the representative cleer manufacturing as well as an agricultural district. It vr6,:tela that any injury done to the manufacturers would im mesaa be recoiled upon the land. In the district that he represen'is this was felt to be the case. Leicestershire was a coun t ,,Yp r as which the manufacturers exceeded the agriculturists- -t ", - , 139,303/. 6s. was levied in one year for poor and county r a '' - t s ' and in that contribution paid by mills and factories, liable. b e the assessments, was but 7831. The cost of a candle w hi te gave light in the cottage of a Leicestershire weaver, was be deducted from his sca n ty earn i ngs . Such all indiv ilo u n' would feel the increased cost ; but the proposal of h is „off Friend comprised a reduction in an article which vga i s , e q h - e . 0 5 0 necessary. He should ask them whether they w°, 111 ;: e 0 0 0 1 :! between cheap Newspapers and cheap soap ?—whic h conducive to the conduct of the labouring part of the a al nity.—(Hear, and cheers from the Opposition.) Mr. POULETT THOMSON stated, that if the re vell ie a u d e were in a condition to spare the amount which his Hon. proposed to claim, this was not the Mode in which he s f be inclined to appropriate it ; because the proposition) nista. Hon. Friend was entirely oosed to the whole course of e : g a i o g tion, followed up for years b pp y successive Governments , beg', 11 , by with the Government in 1826 under Lord Liverpoe`o'graa the Government of the Duke of Wellington • by the , 9 . 0 - 00 , merit of Lord Grey ; by the Government of 'the Ri g ht pt Gentleman opposite, and by the Government at prese ll '„o-• existing.—( Hear, hear.) He did not believe that the P r- bita sition of his Hon. Friend had been correct) stated as ~t °t oo rt bearings by him. His Hon. Friend, so far as he Und e .:;bed him, proposed to transfer the duty to this extent ; be "„:, for to get rid of the Excise Duty, and he proposed to snake, " i . r a saa the loss of this duty by the imposition of a fresh tax ; t° l3 ' . 0 1t, a duty of 10/. per ton. His Hon. Friend stated as the r e ; ills a loss of 250,0001. to the revenue; and as he understoouoot. Hon. Friend, the gain to the consumer would be 50° ,° ,,,,a1 Now, he would undertake to show that the consumer be not be benefited, that the landed proprietor would toe a benefited, and that the country generally would I°s , iu great deal.—( Hear, hear.) The consumption of tallOcera this country was 155,000 tons ; of these 55,0 00 tons,„o : 00 0 foreign tallow which were imported, and there were of tons home produce. Take, then, the revenue on th e e f f e cts his Hon. Friend, supposing his plan to be carried into c o d and that 55,000 tons was the quantity at present ifur r ii a he suppose that so much should continue to be imported (~e , '" t he was prepared to show afte rwar ds that such would n ot `"- into case), but supposing the same quantity should still cure` o fr-' the home market, the duty upon that would be 550, 00- o attt (Hear, hear.) From th a t th e y s h ou ld' deduct the - ‘ses• of the duty at prese n t i m p ose d, 171,000/ , and t her " mained then the su m o f 379,0001., as to probable revedutity, His Hon. Friend had p ro p ose d the repeal of the 5aa1 3 , 83 4; which he said was about 600,000/. That was the duty i n ` ` „ s aa but the net amount of the duty deducting the drawbac, • a; 736,000/. His Hon. Friend had added a charge f or c • 0 4% ()ge t° • but they all knew from experience, that where the 0 015 be „,uld isted for certain purposes, the reduction of officers wa nothing like th e large amount, or equal to the difference 'the, his Hon. Friend had stated.—( Hear, hear.) Dcducting o 'ia b e 379,0001. from 736,000/., the loss to the revenue "-rain% 355,0001., according to his Hon. Friend's plan. Bu t ace; pie% to that statement, he supposed that there would be n°.easoa off in the import of the article ; but he was not right 111 " - f ity ing that ; bn the contrary, the natural result would be; °a ton' posing, where there was 3/. a ton duty, an a dditional o , 7 ! o ' re sva S adding to the price of the article 20 per cent. I °"" i bere every reason for calculating, when that was done, that w oul d would be a falling off of 15,000 or 20,000 tons. ' Th a l 0 las s reduce the revenue still further—it would increase ilia of the revenue, as stated by his Hon. Friend, 250"asies .but by him 350,000/. This was to be regarded as ,"..sat s tion of revenue—and as a loss to the revenue of sue s "; Lot an otae• . 1 0 ) to they had to look to it. But lie now came to th e 0p Oil of the argument of his Hon. Friend, namely, the consumer, which had been stated at 30 0,00C" sitag e° Hon. Friend had admitted, indeed, that some disadva- That would perhaps arise from the increased price of cancil e s s e ' r e Wa s increased sum was to be paid by the consumer ; and ° bine/ . also an increased sum to be paid by those using ni e se +l , o su b : But really his Hon. Friend bad passed by this part °'.. st ieli ject, as if it were of very little importance. Ths`,„-eishe," course should be taken by his Hon. Friend, greatly a g " - ic tar him.-- (Hear, hear.) There were 200,000 ton; of he n c ola low, and of foreign 55,000 tons. How, then, did th eY s bic h into consumption ? According to facts and calculationsi. s ow could be made, it appeared that the amount of tall'?‘ ijoai sumcd in soap was 25,000 tons. He could give h,hls, toed Friend the calculations, and be would find that 1 - 0 1iit e „" amount of soap charged was 67,000 tons. It was ca vera that there was about 11 cwt. of tallow to a ton of soar• of Fa is,, were, then, 96,000 tons of tallow for the consumption 15,00,1 What was the quantity used in machinery? PessiblYbieb l e i tons ; and thus they bad 130,000 tons of tallow, on thus fr ° ll ",, Hon. Friend proposed an additional tax, and 25, 00 " ' 0 which he proposed to take off the duty.—(/.Hear' hcear''°'°° had made this calculation, and he supposed that th auti tons on which his Hort. Friend proposed to increase t 3/. 4 5 ..; by the amount of 61. 16s. (the present duty anionheingnt added to it would make it 10/. the ton), that would thug ose,a 884,000/. He added of course to this sum the 25,000,t sc ow on soap, the amount on which would be 170,0001 ta 3 . the make a total of 1,024,000/. according to his cstimate,,u'a have fore, if they took 736,000/. from 1,024,000/, theYw_staad the remaining sum lost. There would be this loss, tu_cie Prof the gain to the consumer. —( Hear.) The only nt_utomt posed for securing the revenue was by raising the,.a;o,porte:b duty 6/. 16s. a ton, that was supposing the arnour b'y wised as at present should continue ; it was the only Inetlewas gad they could secure the revenue. But when the duty wo uld ( SO much a ton, and the impost was found to fail, Ogallala " obliged to go as high as 20/. a ton to have any THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MARC 14 16, '&36