The Sun. — London, England, 1845-03-06 00:00:00

noonced their intention of abandoning the whole of their lines, and withdrawing all opposition to those of the Great Western scheme; but as the two schemes were fully investigated by us before arriving at the opinion which we have formed as to their comparative merits, we shall proceed to state our grounds for this opinion without reference to circumstances which have subsequently occurred. An inspection of the map will show that the two schemes are based en opposite principles. The leading idea cf the South- Western scheme is to supply the district between the Great Western Railway and the coast by a central trunk line running east and west through Salisbury and Yeovil, with branoh lines north and south, draining the trafSc from each side into this trunk. The leading idea of the Great Western scheme, on the other hand, is to supply the same district by a coast line to Southampton, afording, with the Great Western Railway, east and west com. munications along the boundary lines of the district, with cross lines between the tw.o allbrding north and south communications. The South-Western, Salisbury line, straightened by the Hook Pit Deviation, together with the extension from Salisbury to Yeovil, form the central trunk line of the first system, uhich it would probably have been proposed to complete in a subsequent session by a line from Yeovil to Exeter; and in connexion with this trunk it was at first proposed to run a branch nearly at right angles from Shaftesbury to Dorchester and Weymouth, which, however, was subsequently modified into the Salisbury, Dor. cheater, and Weyrnouth scheme, taking a more direct course towards London. The Southampton and Dorchester, in connexion with the por. tion of the Wilts and Somerset scheme from Weymouth to Brid port, constitute the coast line or base of the other scheme; and the remaining portion of the Wilts and Somerset scheme, with the Yeovil branch of the Bristol and Exeter, form a comprehensive system of north and south communication between this coast line and the Great Western. The Re_Wing, Basingstoke, and Huigerford, aril Basingstoke and Didcot Junction lines are proportions of these two great schemes, which compete with one another for a part of the Berkshire and Hampshire district, which is to a certain extent isolated from the main question, and may be considered separately. It soon became evident to us, from the statements of the parties, arid from the estimates of traffic, that of the two great schemes above described, one only could be supported by the re. sources of the district. The coast line and other lines of tl,e Great Western scheme could only hope to exist by combining with the local traffic such portions of the traffic towards the metropolis as would be diverted from them by the construction of a more direct central line; and, on the other hand, the central line passing through a district com paratively destitute of local traffic, could only be supported by draining imo it the whole traffic towards London. We had, therefore, at the outset to consider which of the two arrangements appeared, on the whole, to be preferable for public purpeses. The privicipal advantage of the South. Western scheme appeared to be, that it afforded a somewhat shorter communication from the western counties to London. By this scheme the distance from Yeovil to London would be about 130 miles, as compared to 142 by the Great Western scheme; from Dorchester to London, 124 miles, as compared to 137; and if contlnned to Exeter, it is calcu. lated that about 20 miles would be saved over the present route by way of Bristol. On the other hand, the Great Western scheme affords a very much better local connexion of the different towns of the district among themselves, and places them all in railway communication, not only with Lcndon and the east, but also with Bath, Bristol, and the north. An inspection of the map will show that by this scheme Sou thampton, Salisbury, Poole, Dorchester, Weymouth, Bridport, Yeovil, Warminster, Frome, and, in fact, almost every town of any importance in the extensive district between the Great Wes tern and South-Western Railways, are placed on good lines of communication with one another, with London, and with Bristol. By the Scuth-Western scheme, on the other hand, co outlet is aftbrded towards Bristol or Bath, and of the towns in question some are entirely omitted, while others only obtain a very circuitous connexion with one another, while no town of any note except Shaftesbury is accommodated by the South-Western scheme and omitted by the other. From the evidence submitted to us, it appears that a very large proportion of the traffic of almost the whole district in question flows towards Bath, Bristol, and the north, and that consequently a scheme of railway communication which afforded no outlet in that direction would be, comparatively speaking, of little value. It appear!, also, from the result of the various public meetings that have been held, and from the different memorials that have been addressed to us, that a very general and decided feeling exists throughout by far the greater part of the district in question in favoar of the Great Western scheme, as combining the advantages of local accommodation and of a northern outlet with that of a suf ficiently good London communication. These considerations appear to us, under the peculiar eircum. stances of the case in question, to cutweigh the slight advantage in distance from a few principal points to London ; and accordingly we have arrived at the conclusion that the Great Western scheme is calculated to afford, on the whole, better accommodation to the districts to be supplied than the competing scheme. The advantages afforded, in a national point of view, by the coast line, which forms an integral portion of the Great Western scheme, have been already refcrrea to in our report on the South-Eastern district, and constitute, in our opinion, an important additional re commendation in favour of this scheme. When we prooeed to examine the different lines of the two scheue^s which are in competition with one another more in detail, we are confirmed in the preference which, upon general grounds, appears to be due to the Great Western scheme. I. As regards the ➢erkshire or Newbury district. _ . The Great Western line runs from Hungerford, through New. bury, to Reading, and from Reading to Basingstoke. That of the South .Western Company from Basingstoke to Newbury, and thence with an alternative branch either to Didcot or Swindon. The traffic tables submitted to us, as well as the evidence given before Parliament last year, show that the principal traffic of Newbury, Ilungerford, and the district to be accommodated, is with London. The Great Western line, by way of Reading, gives this traffic a shorter route of eight miles and a-half, than the SouthaWestern line by way of Basingstoke. The Great Western line also affords a direct communication from Newbury and Hungerford to Reading, Maidenhead, and the dif ferent towns along the line of (he old Great Western road, with which the intercourse is considerable. The South-Western line affords no communication in this direc tion, and substitutes for it only a communication towards Basing. stoke and Southampton, in which direction the traffic is inconsi. demist°, and which is afforded without any very great circuit by the Great Western scheme, by way of Reading. W:th regard to the north and south communication, the pros pect of a connexion being effected between Rugby and Oxford, leaves no doubt that the sommunication by way of Oxford is pre ferable to that by Swindon, as affording a more direct route not only to the northern and north-western, but also to the midland and northeastern portions of the kingdom. It is evident also that there is at present no sufficient traffic to support two lines of communication to the north, and the advantages of that by Swin don are, to a great extent, obtained by the proposed extension of the Wilts and Sort erset line to Salisbury, We may assume, therefore, that the alternative branch of the South-Western Company to Swindon is untenable, and that the comparison lies between their Didcot line and that of the Great Western Company from Reading to Basingstoke. The sole advantage of the Didcot line is—that it shortens the distance from Dichsot to Basingstoke (or, in other words, from north to Southampton) by 51 miles, as compared with the Great Western route by Reading. But, on the other hand, its gradients are very inferior, and it involves the construction of 26; miles of railway, in great part of an expensive character, through a thinly populated country, while the length of the Great Western Railway from Reading to Basingstoke is only 15 miles. Hid the through-traffic from the north been sufficient in itself to support a lino, much might have been said in favcur of one from Basingstoke to Didcot on the narrow guage, which would not only have given the most direct route, but also have afforded a prospect of attaining an unbroken communication throughont, since in that case the portion between Oxford and Didcot would alone have intervened upon the wide guage. But it appears perfectly well established that there exists at presents no through-traffic in this direction that could in itself warrant or support a line of 26 miles from Basingstake to Didoot, and a second narrow gauge line for 10 miles between Didcot and Oxford. Such a line would present itself under very different circumstances, if the traffic towards Seuthampten should so far increase as to be capable of supporting it; but in the meantime it is evident that it could only hope to be supported by the London traffic from the Newbury district being diverted over it, in the circuitous and in. convenient direction of Basingstoke. Conceiving, therefore, this traffic and the connexion with Rea ding and the eastern towns to be the paramount objects required for the accommodation of the district, we are of opinion that the Great Western scheme, which effects these objects much Letter and more economically, at a comparatively slight sacrifice of distance to the through-traffic from the north, is preferable to the competing scheme : nor do we think that this preference would interfere materially with the construction hereafter of a direct and un interrupted narrow-gauge communication between the north and Southampton, should such appear to be required for the public ac commodation, which, however, we do not contemplate as likely to be the case under existing circumstances. 11. The Wilts and Somerset Line, and Bristol and Exeter Branch from Durston to Yeovil. These together form a very complete and comprehensive scheme comprising 148 miles of new railway, for supplying local accom. modation, and a double communication, towards London and Bristol, to the plincipal towns of Wiltshire, Somersetshire, and Dorsetshire. By combining these objects, and by ensuring uni formity and economy of working in connexion with the Great Western Railway, a sufficient return may be expected to justify the outlay of capital, which, from the comparatively easy nature of considerable portions of the line, is estimated not to exceed 1,700,000/. No portions of this scheme appear to be in direct competition with any of the lines proposed by the Slutik;Vyestern Company, none of which supply the main object of a communication towards Bristol and the north. As a wh )le, the Wilts and Somerset scheme appears a very useful and complete scheme for the accommodation of the district wi?h the exception of the following points : 1. The communication afforded from Salisbury, Warminster, Bradford, and all places north of Yeovil, towards Bath and Bristol, is circuitous and imperfect, and it is evident that a communication in this direction, in addition to that towards London, is required in order to carry out properly the avowed objects of the undertak ing. It has been strongly urged by various local interests, includ ing the Chamber of Commerce of Bristol and other public bodies of that city and of Bath, that the completion of this communication by a line from Bradford to Bath ought to be insisted on, as a con. ditinn of sanctioning the scheme. The promoters state, however, that great engineering difficulties exist in this direction, and that it is by no means certain that a better line for public purposes might net be found by Frome and Radstock, or in some other direction. They have voluntarily offered, however, to pledge themselves, in any way that Parliament may think fit, to complete their scheme, by applying next session for such line of improved communication towards Bath and Bristol, whether by Bradford or in any other di rection, as upon full inquiry shall appear the best, leaving it to the Board of Trade, or other authority constituted by Parliament, to decide, in case of difference, which line shall be adopted, and whe ther there are any circumstances that may reasonably require a suspension of the application. demanded from to us th a t thi s p l e d ge o ff ers a ll th a t can be reasonably from the Company, and will insure the attainment of the public objects which the memorialists have had in view. Th of Wells and the surrounding district are left with out railweacyitcyo communication by the present combination. It appears to r' : very desirable that this object should be attained, in order to completee the railway communications of the county • bet at present thi s could only be done by the sacrifice of objects of greater importance. The promoters of the Wilts and Somerset scheme, as well as the Bristol and Exet er Company, have , however, stated their inten tion of examining th e Wells district, with a view to ext en di ng a branch to it if it sho u ld appear that such an be justified as a com merc i a l enterprise; be longwe hope, undertaking would d therefore, that this portion of the c oun t y w i ll not excluded from a participation in the benefits con f erred upon the rest. ret The Bristol and Exeter C ompany ' s Branch from Duraton to Yeovil is an integral part of this comprehensive he munication, and affords a connexio n b etween the Bristol Channel, Devonshire, Devonshire, and Cornwall, and the south coast, and coast line from Dorchester to Southampton. 111. With regard to the lines from Dorchester to South. ampton and Salisbury. The general features of these competing lines have been already described, and the grounds upon which a preference appears to be due to the former as a better local line, and as an integral portion of a more comprehensive scheme, notwithstanding the advantage of a somewhat shorter distance to London by the Salisbury line. It only remains to add, that the Southampton line was origi. nally projected by an independent local committee, and adopted by resolutions passed at county meetings and public meetiugs held at the principal towns of the district for the purpose of considering of the best means of railway communication. It is obviously prefer able to the Salisbury scheme, in a national point of view, as a coast line, and affbrds better local accommodation to Warillarn, Poole, Christchurch, and the towns on the coast; it is also of a much less expensive character, which is a consideration of importance, as it does not appear that the traffic which may be ex. pected will be sufficient to afford a fair return upon the larger capital required for the Salisburyscheme. On the whole, therefore, we have no difficulty in stating onr opinion that of the twe com peting schemes that from Dorchester, to Seuthampton appears to ns to be preferable. IV. The remaining lines are, the South-Western Extension, from Salsbury to Yeovil, and Nook Pit Deviation. Fad the traffic of the district appeared to be sufficient to sup port a direct Yeovil or Exeter line, in addition to the coast and Wilts and Somerset lines, the preference given to the latter would not have been conclusive against the sanction of the former; but it appears to us to be perfectly well established that neither the local or through-traffic are at present of sufficient amount to enable the two schemes to exist in conjunction, and therefore, as a consequence of the opinion we have expressed, that the Great Western scheme affords, on the whole, decidedly greater pre lie advantages, it follows that we must equally express an opinion un. favourable to the line from Salisbury to Yeovil. It may, perhaps, be objected that the effect of the rejection of the Salisbury and Yeovil line will be to create a monopoly of the whole traffic of the west of England in the hands of the Great Western Company. Thia objection, however, could only be obviated by sanctioning a great length of otherwise unproductive line for the sake of competition, and by so doing defeating a scheme greatly preferable both in respect of local accommodation and of na tional advantage. Ner does it appear to us that any monopoly beyond what at present exists would be thus created, since if at any time hereafter circumstances should so change, either by the in. creasing importance of the through-traffic or by any possible abuse of their powers on the part of the Great Western Company, as to justify and require the construction of a shorter or emnpetlng line to Exeter, there would be nothing in the present settlment to prevent such line ftom being brought forward, either by the South-Western Company, or by other parties. The Hook Pit Deviation, by which the angle at Bishopstoke of the Salisbury line, sanctioned last year, is proposed to be cut off. and the distance from Salisbury to London shortened, might be highly desirable, if the South-Western scheme of a central line to the west of Salisbury were adopted. But if this scheme be re. jected, there hardly appears a sufficient case for proposing a new line to alter one so recently sanctioned, and which is not yet com pleted, more especially as it may be questionable whether, if it be a sufficient object for the South. Western Company to shorten their line to Salisbury as much as possible, that object might not be better attained by a line from Basingstoke by way of Andover, which would at the same time accommodate a district now un provided with railway communication. We have thus stated the grounds en which we should have been induced to express a preference in favour of the lines of the Great Western scheme over the competing lines of the South-Western scheme, had both been brought forward for the sanction of Perna ment. The latter scheme has, however, as we have already stated, been withdrawn by its promoters. An arrangement has also been entered into, by which the coast line from Southampton to Dor chester, which, although connected with the Great Western scheme, is promoted by an independent Company, is proposed, with the consent of the different parties interested, to be leased to the South-Western instead of to the Great Western Company. This arrangement appears to us advantageous for the public, in. asmuch as from the position of the line in question, terminating at Southampton, and having the South.Weetern Railway for the outlet of all its metropolitan traffic, it may be worked more con veniently in connexion with the South-Western than with the Great Western Company. A consequence of the former con. nexion also is, that the narrow instead of the wide gauge will be carried westward from Southampton to Dorchester; and although this will be an inconvenience for all traffic ftom the westward of Dorchester to Southampton, and places short of it, it will be a great advantage for all traffic passing beyond Southampton to Lon don, and, by the continuation of the coast line, towards Ports. mouth and Brighton, In order to obviate as far as possible the inevitable inconve iiien:es arising from the meeting of the two different gauges, it may be well to insert clauses into the Bills of both Companies enabling some public authority to enforce hereafter, at the request of either Company, the laying down of additional rails over por tions of the other line, or such other provisions as may appear practicable and desirable, subject to equitable conditions. For instance, between Weymouth and Dorchester it may be very de sirable that additional rails should be laid down if practicable, so as to allow narrow-gauge carriages, &e., to run on to London and Southampton without interruption. Some similar provision might be required at the meeting of the two gauges at Salisbury ; and there also it is essential that pro vision should be made to ensure a proper junction of the two lines, which is not shown on the plans. Subject to these points, and to other provisions of detail, it ap pears to us that the system of lines, and the arrangements above described, and which are now brought forward without opposition, as far as the different railway interests are concerned, are well cal culated to promote public convenience and to provide for the ac. comtnodation of the district. In conclusion, we be beg to draw attention to the passage of the Fifth Report of the Select Committee of last . year, in which it is stated, in recommending that reports should be made to Parliament by this department upon railway schemes, " That no such report should be hold to prejudice the claims of private persons, the amination of which should be al!ogether reserved to the Houses of the Legislature." In eubmittiog to Parliament, in conformity with the recommen. dations of that Committee, the results at which we have arrived, with a view to the information and assistance of Parliament in forming a judgment upon the schemes in question, in so be as our report maybe available for that purpose, we are anxious that it should be distinctly understood that we have arrived at these ni twits solely upon public grounds, and to the exclusion of all consi derations how far such results might require to be modified by a duo regard for private rights and interests. DALHOUSIE. C. W. PASLEY. G. R. PORTER. D. O'BRIEN. S. LAINO. RAILWAY BUSINESS IN PAR LIAMENT. TUESDAY, MARCH 4. Standing Orders Committe,L-Resolutions reported; 1. " That, in the case of the Thames and Medway canal Pe. tition, the Standing Orders ought not to be dispensed with." 2. " That, in the case of the Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway Petition, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill." " That, in the case of the Glasgow Junction Railway Petition, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with : That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill." 4. " That, in the case of the London, Worcester, and South Staffordshire Railway Petition, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill." 3. " That, in the case of the York and North Midland (Goole Branch) Railway Petition, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be permitted to pro ceed with their Bill, on making, forthwith, applieation in writing to William Smith, as owner of Numbers 108 and 109 on the plan." 6. " That, in the case of the Cambridge and Lincoln Rail way Petition, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill, upon a memorandum of the radii of the two curves re ported on, not exceeding one mile in length, being forthwith noted on the plans." " That the Committees on this and the preceding Bill d') examine, in the first place, how far such order has been coin plied with, and do report the same to the House on the report of the Bill." The second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth resolutions agreed to. Report to lie on the table. Cambridge and Lincoln Railway,—Report from Select Committee on Standing Urders read; Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Manners Sutton, Mr. Kelly, Mr. Fitz william, and Mr. Eliott Yorke. The following Bills were read a first time : The Newcastle and Berwick Railway. The Scottish Central Railway. The Belfast and Ballymena Railway. The Lynn and Ely Railway. The Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway. The following Bills were read a second time, and com mitted, and referred to the Committee of Selection : Whitby and Pickering Railway. Leeds and Thirsk Railway. Barnsley Junction Railway. Eastern Counties Railway (Ely and Whittlesea Deviation). Black burn,Burnley,Accrington, and Colne Extension Railway. Manchester, Bury, and Rossendale Railway (Heywood Branch). NOTICES GIVEN AT THE PRIVATE BILL-OFFICE, Maack 4. Scottish Central Railway,—Second reading, Monday, March 10. Brighton and Chichester (Portsmouth Extension) Railway, —Committee on petition, postponed from Thursday, 6th, till Friday, 7th March. _ . Southport and Euston Junction Railway,—Committee on petition, Monday, March 17. West Cornwall Railway,—Petition for Bill reported, and Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Pandarves and Mr. Ed mund Turner. Ulster Railway Extension,—Petition for Bill reported, and Bill ordered to be brought in by Viscount Castlereagh and the Earl of Hillsborough... Oxford and Rugbyßailway,—Petition for Trill reported, and Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Charles Russell and Mr. llayter. Shrewsbury and Birmingham Railway,—Petition for Lill reported; report referred to the Select Committee on Stand ing Orders. Clydesdale Junction Railway,—Petition for Bill reported; report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders. 'Northumberland Railway,—Petition for Bill; referred to the Select Committee on Petitions for Private Bills. York and North Midland Railway (Goole Branch),—Re port from Select Committee on Standing Orders read ; Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir John Lowther, Mr. Stuart Wortley, and Mr. Beckett. Edinburgh and Northern Railway,—Petition for Bill ; re• ferred to the Select Committee on Petitions for Private ➢ills. Southport and Euston Junction Railway,—Petition for Bill; referred to the Select Committee on Petitions for Pri vate Bills RAILWAY COMMITTEES. Sub• Committee No. 4 assembled in No. 8 Committee room. Present, Mr. Aglionby, Chairman, Mr. Thornely, Mr. Buller, Mr, T. Egerton, and Mr. Barneby. CORNWALL RAILWAY. The CIIAMMAN inquired if Mr. Harvey appeared upon his petition ; but no one answered, and tile Bill was about to be proceeded with as an unopposed Bill, when Mr. SMYTHE applied to appear on a petition presented by Mr. Thomas against the Bill on Friday last. The CHAIRMAN said that no one could appear on a petition which had not been presented three days before the sitting of the Committee to which it had been referred. Mr. Smythe could not therefore appear; but the Committee would call evidence if they thought proper. Mr. BumeE then proceeded with the case in support of the Bill. Captain Moorsom was examined as to the accuracy of the plan. Several minor inaccuracies were discovered, and the Committee reported accordingly. At the conclusion of Captain Moorsom's evidence strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the Committee, after delibe rating for nearly an hour-aud-s-half, decided that they were satisfied with the evidence on the plans, and they did not require any other witness to be examined. They laid it down as a rule, however, that they would hear any wit ness who might be in the room, and who was ready to be examined on any point upon which the Committee might entertain a doubt. The Committee then adjourned. The Duke of Cleveland has given permission for a grand steeple chase, to come off over a part of the Raby do main, on Tuesday, the 18th inst., for horses that have been regularly hunted with the Raby, Hurworth, Redale, Durham, Cleveland, Derwent, Sir M. W. Ridley's, and York and Ainsty bounds, during the years 1844 and 1845. There is also to be a hurdle race on the same day for hunters, to come off on the Raby estate. THE CHANGE IN THE SOUTH MAILA.—A, report is in circulation in this town, that the change in the south mails, which we formerly intimated—an acceleration of two hours—will ,be carried into operation on th e s t h of April next, at which time the carriages to be used for the purpose of sorting the letters on the line from York to N ewcastle are expected to be completed.—Berun . ch Warder. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 5. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. Mr. WRIGIITSON presented a petition from Don caster against certain clauses in the Yorkshire and South Midland Railway Bill. The Ulster Railway Bill was brought up, read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. Sir F. TRENCH brought in the Scarborough Water Works Bill, which was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. The HoN. MEMBER also brought in the Sheffield Water Works Bill, which was read a first, and ordered to be read e, second time to-morrow. Petitions were presented against the Hull and Selby Branch Railway Bill. The report was brought up on the Trent Valley Rail way Bill. The Committee reported that the stand ing orders had been complied with, and leave was given to bring in the Bill by Lord F. Egerton and others. Mr. FERIIAND presented petitions in favour of the London, Chatham, and North Kent Railway Bill. Sir J. LOWTHER brought in the York and North Midland Railway Bill, which was read a first, and or dered to be read a second time to-morrow. The York and North Midland (Bridlington Branch) Railway was read a second time, and ordered to be corn mitted to• morrow. Britten's Divorce Bill was read a second time, and or dered to be committed. PROPERTY-TAX BILL. Sir J. TROLLOPE presented a petition from Long Sutton, in Lincolnshire, against that part of the Pro perty-tax Bill thataffeeted trades and professions. ANATOMY ACT. Mr. FERRAND presented a petition from Dewsbury against the operation of the Anatomy Act, and praying for a searching inquiry. The Hon. Member also pre sented a similar petition from Orpington. Lord CLIVE presented petitions against the union of the sees of Bangor and St. Asaph. THE PLYMOUTH GAS BILL Viscount EBRINGTON gave notice that he should move that it be an instruction to the Committee of Selection to refer the Plymouth and Stonehouse Gas Bill, and the Devonport Gas and Coke Company Bill to the same Committee. WEST CORNWALL RAILWAY. Mr. E. TURNER brought up the West Cornwall Railway Bill, which was read a first time. HARWICH RAILWAY. The HON. MEMBER also brought up the Harwich Railway (promoted by the Eastern Counties) Bill, which was alio read a first time. LONDON AND CROYDON. The MN. AfEmBER then presented a petition praying for the extension of the London and Croydon Railway. RYE AND TENTERI)EN. Mr. BLEWITT presented a petition praying for leave to bring in a Bill to construct a line of railway between Rye, Tanterden, and llastings.—Referred to the Select Committee. SOLICITORS' ANNUAL CERTIFICATES. Mr. B. DENISON presented a petition from the soli citors of Northallerton, praying that the annual certifi cate duty should be abolished. Mr. GEORGE BANKES presented a petition from a medical gentleman named Henry Charles Leeson, who complained that the Poor- law Commissioners had come to a determination which he thought unfavourable to him. He also prayed for an alteration in the law respecting the powers of the Poor-law Commissioners over medical practitioners. DUTIES ON COPPER ORES. Mr. J. PARKER gave notice that, in the Committee of Ways and Means, he intended to move an amendment to the effect that the duties on copper ores imported for the purposes of reduction, be remitted. RAILWAYS TO DORSETSIIIRE. Mr. G. BANKES gave notice that, in the Committee on Private Business, he should move that copies of all the memorials which had been presented to the Board of Trade respecting the construction of railways to Dor setshire be laid on the table. CONDITION OF THE AGRICULTURAL POPULATION. Mr. WOI3EHOUSE said that he wished to ask the question of the Hon. Member fur Stockport of which ho had given notice. The question he wished to put was, whether he would have any objection to postpone the motion of which he had given notice for the 13th of March, until after Easter? If the Hon. Member would comply with his request, a great inconvenience would be obviated ; for at the time when this motion would other wise come on many Members would be engaged at the quarter sessions. Mr. COBDEN said that it was not easy to secure the attention of Members to a private motion after Easter. H© had in the first instance given a fortnight's notice of his motion ; he had then, at request, postponed it for another fortnight, and afterwards for another week after that. This was five weeks, and he could not, under these circumstances, consent to postpone his motion. Mr. WODEHOUSE said that he quite agreed with the view taken by the Hon. Member for Stockport, and under the circumstances ho would not pross his request. SLAVE TRADE. Mr. BUTT begged to give notice that, on Tuesday the 11 th of March, ho should move for several returns respecting the slave trade, and among them the number of vessels employed for the suppression of the slave trade from the Ist of January, 1820, to the Ist January, 1844 ; the number of naval officers who had died in each year ; and the amount of compensation given, distinguishing the sums given to foreigners. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. Mr. REDFIEAD YORKE moved for leave of absence to Mr. Christopher for one week, from Friday the 7th March.—Leave was granted. PRISONS IN VAN DIEMAN'S LAND. Mr. EIVART wished to ask the licn. Member, the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether the Act of Parliament for empowering jus tices of the peace in that island to visit the prisons and inspect their state, was become inoperative ? lie believed that considerable complaint had been made in consequence of the refusal of the Comptroller-General to permit the prisons to be visited by the justices. He (Mr. Ewart) wished to know whe ther any intimation of this circumstance had been given to her Majesty's Government ? Mr. M. SUTTON said that no official information had reached the Government. He believed passages in private letters which had reached this country com• plained of the refusal to admit magistrates to inspect the prisons in Van Diemen's Land, but of this Government had received no official intimation. The proper course to be taken would be, for the parties who felt this refusal to be a grievance to make a formal complaint to the Government, through the proper chan nel. Not,any complaint, however, bad as yet reached the Government, but as soon as any such did reach it, he would take care that it should be inquired into. COUNTY RATES. Sir J. Y. BULLER gave notice, that on Tuesday, the 13th of March, he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the assessment of county rates. INCOME-TAX. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition, very nu merously signed, from Manchester, against the continu ance of the tax on income derived from trades and professions. STAMP DUTIES IN IRELAND. Mr. C. BULLER wished to ask the Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government a question. He (Mr. Buller) perceived that the Stamp Duties, under the new Act, were to be continued in Ireland. What he wished to know was, whether that Act was to be con tinued in force during the income-tax in Ireland? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the Act was to be continued only for the purpose of collecting in outstanding arrears. S HIP WRECKS. Mr. MASTERMAN, seeing the Bight Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government in his place, begged to remind him that, during the last session, a Committee had been appointed to make inquiries regarding the shipwreck of British vessels. The ques tion he wished to ask was—whether it was intended to bring forward any measure upon the report of that Committee ? Sir ROBERT PEEL said that, in the ordinary course of business, of course, the report alluded to by the Hon. Member on his left would be attended to; but he undo r stood, from his Hon. Friend the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, that the report was not yet ready. IMPORTATION OP SUGAR. Mr. TIIORNELY wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury of great importance to this country, as regar d e d th e im portation of sugar. Ho had been informed that that day there had arrived in the port of London sam ples of sugar from New Orleans, the produce of slave labour. What he wished to know was, whether this sugar, as well as that imported from Louisiana and other slave countries, would be admitted into this country upon the same terms as sugar imported from Java and Manilla ? Sir R. PEEL said that those countries of the United States in which sugar was produced by slave-labour, and admitted into England, were countries with which this kingdom had at present reciprocity treaties. With regard to the arrival announced by the Honourable Member, he (Sir Robert Peel) begged to say he had had no intimation whatever of it ; but he would say, that at present that sugar would not be ad missible on the same terms as sugar the pro duce of the countries mentioned by the Hon. Member. But he would add, that he had no hesitation in saying that sugar, the produce of the United States, now under the reciprocity treaties, would be admitted under the proposed advantages.—(Hear.) Mr. THORNELY was very glad to hear that an nouncement from the Right Hon. Baronet, as a new and very extensive trade in sugar was about to be opened with the countries ho had named, to which this altered state of the law would be of great importance. Mr. EWART wished to know whether it was not the fact that slave-grown sugar, admitted at the reduced duty from the United States, would undersell the free labour sugar of Mauritius and Java ? Sir R. PEEL was understood to say that he was not prepared with an answer. THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Mr. H. R. YORKE took that opportunity, before the order of the day was read, to put to the Noble Lord, the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests (Lord Lincoln), the questions of which he had given notice—namely, when the statement of the total estimated cost of the building of the new Houses of Parliament, according to the latest plan approved, would be laid upon the table ? Also, whether the Noble Lord intended to lay upon the table of the House Mr. Barry's last half-yearly report of the works to the Commission ers of Woods and Forests ? Also, seeing the inconvenience of the present temporary arrangements, whether the New House of Commons will be ready for occupation at the commencement of 1847, the latest period alluded to in the report of the Select Committee of last session? fie did not think it necessary to trespass on the time of the House further than to put the questions, which he be- e lieved the Noble Lord was prepared to answer. Lord LINCOLN was in hopes that he would be able to mske the mind of the Hon. Gentleman easy upon the subject of his first question, for he did not think there was any ground for apprehension that the cost would ex ceed the estimates except by a small amount, and that arose only from additions to the original plan, and through the fault of the architect.—(Hear, hear.) He should be prepared tomorrow to lay before the House the total estimate of the cost, in which it would appear that the excess above the original estimate was caused only by two items, one of 8001. for alterations in the Victoria Tower, and, as we understood, one of 2191. for enlarged accommodation for her Majesty ; so that the whole amount of the estimate would be but 928,9131. He would also lay on the table to-morrow the half yearly report of the architect, which was made up to the 28th of January.—(Hear.) As to the third and last question, whether the new House of Commons would be prepared for their reception by the session of 1847, he (Lord Lincoln) had to answer, that he had seen the architect that morning, who assured him that he saw no reason to withdraw the declaration which he made last year, namely, that the new Houses would be ready in 1847.—(Hear.) PROPERTY -TAX. On the motion for reading the order of the day for going into Committee on the prop er ty. t ax , Capt. BERNAL OSBORNE said, as he had not had an opportunity of expressing his strong objections to this odious and oppressive tax, he took thi s o pp or t un i t y o f moving that the House go into committee on that clay three months.—(A laugh.) :tie assured the Right Hon. Baronet that he did not do so with the view of offering any factious opposition to the measure. The SPEAKER informed the Hon. Member that the motion before the House was for reading the order of the day, and not that he should leave the chair. TURNPIKE TRUSTS. Lord EBRINGTON asked whether it was the inten tion of her Majesty's Government to bring in a general Bill, this session, on the subject of turnpike-roads ? Sir J. GRAHAM said it was not his intention to bring in any measure on this subject at present. FRAME-WORK KNITTERS. Mr. FERRAND said, as he had received several let ters, stating the extreme anxiety of the frame-work knitters to know when the report of Mr. Muggeridge would be laid on the table, he wished to ask the Right. Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State to use his utmost influence with the Commissioners to have the report produced as soon as possible. Sir J. GRAHAM was understood to say that the re port should be furnished without delay. INTERMENT IN TOWNS. Lord MAHON wished to ask a question with respect to a subject that had been brought under the no tice of the House by the Honourable Member for Lymington (Mr. Mackinnon), viz., interment in cities and towns. The House would recollect that, in 1842, a Committee was appointed on this subject ; in its report it stated that the duty of framing a Bill on this subject could be most efficiently discharged by her Majesty's Government, and this duty was earnestly recommended to them by the Committee. Such having been the recom mendation of the Committee, as a member of it, he might add, its unanimous recommendation ; and as two years had elapsed since the report was made, he begged leave to inquire whether her Majesty's Government had al ready framed, or were now engaged in framing. a mea sure that would remedy the evils of which the Govern ment had acknowledged the existence ? Sir J. GRAHAM could assure his Noble Friend that IT had repeatedly, and with the utmost anxiety, directed his attention to the subject; but he was bound to say that the more consideration he bestowed on the question the more he was convinced of the difficulty of legislating effectually upon it. He had not been able to frame any measure to which he could give his approbation as likely to be attended with advantage, or that would meet the wishes of the great body of the people. He was not prepared to lay any measure on the subject before the House. PROPERTY-TAY• The order of tiieefaii:); going into Committee on the property-tax was then read. Captain BERNAL OSBORNE said, that he could not reconcile it to his conscience, or to the duty which he owed to his constituents, to suffer this motion to be agreed to sub silentio. He entertained most serious ob jections to this tax as it was at present levied, and re served to himself a full right to express his approval of a property .tax fairly levied. He must say, that con sidering that this tax was levied upon trades and profes sions, and that the Government held out no hope of any alteration taking place, he considered the tax in its present form so odious and unjust, that he should move as an amendment that the House do resolve itself into Committee that day three months. Mr. MUNTZ wished to explain the reason why he now opposed the proposition of the Right Honourable Baronet for the continuance of the property-tax. Having voted for it when it was first proposed, because at that time he deemed it expedient and just, he thought it his duty to explain the reasons that now induced him to vote against it. The circumstances of the case were quite altered now from what they had been when the Right Hon. Baronet proposed the tax ; and he (Mr. Muntz) had voted for it on that occasion because he had felt convinced that it was necessary either to im pose this tax or to levy an additional duty on articles of general consumption. But the question was now entirely alterered—the question now was, whether you should take off that tax or any other tax ? and, while supporting the general proposition that the imposition of a property-tax was fair and equitable, he bad a decided objection to this tax, because he consi deredmsfiirnoi eleed h a i 1 E ; oe i mtenhn:i considered i m tdaoe e xp i n a d x i otnhF commissionerasni ib n j j ch u ee s tt,il:hthehao. the more dn ji ( nd C oor h tne injustice.—(Cheers.) met r eel : td . l ) Nn The this tahxarwdhshoi gross e Many pienoipuiset paidce in come whatever, for the sake o p f ha k od e f up appear ances. He begged it to be distinct! that he did not object to a propertyZ understoodc They might quadruple a property-tax if theytax.—(Cheers.) ers.) liked, he should not object to it. But he • considered the tax, as it at present existed, most • unpst. An other reason why he objected to the continuance of this tax was, that not only the House, but e were labouring under misconception on the the country, h. t the continuance of this tax. They, like the Riguhjte of Gentleman, were flattering themselves that, in three years' time, they would get rid of this tax. They would do no such thing. It would be perpetual:: (Hear, hear.) Not only would they . have to pay it for the rest of ther lives, but their children, their grandchildren, and their great grandchildren would have to pay it after them (Cheers and laughter.) Not only were thet con tinuing o r the tax, but they were doing away wi/lii . e means of en property iincome-tax. cmaose with t ot a hn x ever getting rid of it. If he agree ilith 'the Right differedNvassomfreohnl op th e e o ß f theigh Right Hon. of Hon. Baronet that a permane n t i mprovement had taken place in the condition of th e country, then he might, perhaps,the tax, h considera but he that entirel ythereßaronet on that point. It was true that an improvement had taken place in certain districts, but it was evident why that improvement had taken place. Additional burdens had been put upon one class, which had relieved another. It was true the Right Honourable Baronet had relieved the industrious classes belonging to the ma nufacturing interest ; but he had done this by laying additional burdens upon the agricultural i n t eres t. " I call this," said the Hon. Gentleman, "robbi ng P e ter to pay Paul "—(A laugh? but I want to know w h o is to o pay Peter ?—(Cheering, and muc h l aug h ter .) ul The Hon. Baronet said the other day that Sir Robert Peel was a difficult bird to put salt on hi s ta il , b ut i t was quite clear that the Right Hon. Baronet had put salt on some of their tails.—(Great laughter.) He did not quarrel with the Right Hon. Baronet for en t er t a i n i ng th e opinions he did. He was willing t o b e li eve t h at h e was sincere in them. He believed that the Right Hon. Baronet deceived himself, deceived the House, and deceived the country.—(Renewed laughter.) He (Mr. Muntz) ex pressed his sentiments straightforwardly and honestly, and felt no hesitation in saying that the income-tax was a most vexatious, obnoxious, and inquisitorial tax, and he would always vote against its imposition. Mr. F. BARING said, that if it were now a question whether they would vote for an income tax or not, and that their will was perfectly unembarrassed by the finan cial circumstances of the country, he would oppose it. But, considering the position in which the country stood, he believed it was preferable to other modes of taxation ; and the fact was, they had no power to dispense with this tax. What was the financial state of the country ? They ought distinctly to understand whether or not they had a surplus to deal with—whether they could take of the tax or not. He (Mr. Baring) did not think they could dispense with 5,000,0001. The income for the year, without the China money and a deficiency of 1 800 0001. the income-tax, was about 47,900,000/.; the expenditure, as shown by the estimates, was about 49,700,0001.; leaving was speaking of the condition of the finances '' of the country if they took off the income-tax. He had. heard it said on the other side that th e resources of the countr y ought to leave a margin to m ee t some of the casua l ex penses which fre quently came upon them. Now, if they took that into consideration, he did not believe that they could get rid o f the income-tax without the im p osition of fresh taxes to the amount of two millions. That was the present state of the finances of the country; and this was his justification, and his onl j us tification, for voting for the incom e -t ax. lie voted for it, because he was not ready to l eave t h e country again w i t h a deficient revenue. lie would say that it was not wise, after having had re course to one of the strongest financial measures that could be take n , t o g i ve up all the a d va ntages which they had gained by such a measure. lie was ready to sub mit to any taunt for expressing this opinion, because he believed it to be a sound one. The Right Hon. Gen tleman (Sir R. Peel) the other night bad said that he (Mr. i . Baring), an d his friends arou nd him, must be n love with th e i ncome - tax, because they did not oppose it. (Th e Ri ght Hon. Baronet' expressed dissent.) Why, the Right H on. Baronet ha d sa id, " yo . o do not like the incom e - tax, why do you not vo te against t ? ' The Right H on . G entleman said, w hy don't you vote income-tax, or propose against the inco m other t a xes to meet the trifling defi c i ency i we have to make up ? Now, he thought that w as not fair because it made a great difference wheth er you oppose a tax which is a lread y laid I on, or whetheryou oppose it originally.-(Hear.) He had a decided objecti on to the income-tax being made a part of the permanent taxation of the country. He had constantly opposed it, because he thought it unwise, and he would cont i nue to oppose it ; but, though j he retained a ll the objections which he had expressed whe n t h e tax was originally laid on, it did not follow that he was to oppose its continuance for a further period of three years, when it was neces sary to meet the deficiencies of the country. It was .. one thing to ent er t a i n strong objections to an income tax, and it was anot h er thin g not to oppose its continu ance for three y ears, part i cu l ar ly w hen there was a deficiency of 2,500,000/. to be made up.—(Hear.) Lie did not think it would be wise to In any great alterations in the way of taking off taxes which would have to be imposed again if, as he though; the income-tax ought not to be a permanent one. Assuming, then, that some tax was necessary, and that the continuance of the income-tax was r quisite, he would next come to consider what the propositions of the Right lion. Gentleman were, and what was the course he pursued, having obtained his means, and as it would be very difficult to argue the case without going into the whole of the financial arrangements of the country with the Right Hon. Gentleman, he hoped the House would pardon him in asking for its attention for a somewhat hazer period than otherwise would have been necessary. And, in the first place, he sincerely regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman had left himself with so small a sur plus, about 90,0001. or 100,0001. He must say that that seemed to him to be a small surplus to rely on. And how did it rest ? On the sugar duties.—(Hear, hear.) And on what did the sugar duties rest ?—(Hear.) Why, on the calculation that the consumption of sugar would be increased nearly one-fifth beyond what it was in the year in which they had the greatest c, nsumption, and next, that that consumption would be supplied by the coming in of certain sugars at a higher rive of duty. Now, what were the duties which the Right Hon. Gen tleman would have to fall hack upon? He wished mo to act unfriendly to the Right Hon. Gentleman, but if the classification was to be abandoned, he wanted to know what was to become of the surplus ? It was clear that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not get the amount of duty he expected for the sugar duties. He was warned of that by the Right Hon. Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade. He now came to the taxes that wero proposed to be taken off; and in doing so he admitted that they could not take off any tax without its being beneficial to the country, but there were certain classes that would be more rapidly affected than others. In the proposal of the Right Hon. Gentleman he could not see any particular charm.—(Hear, hear.) There could be no doubt that the alteration of the sugar duties would be a great boon, but the proposal that was made would not effect it. He had made out a case differing materially from the ordinary rule of financial arrangement ; but in that arrangement he was supported by the common sense of the country. They could not expect bet that from their reductions the same benefits would accrue as in other cases of reduction. He was afraid, however, that the Right Honourable Gentleman was hampering him self by the principle he was adopting, and that the advantages to the community would not be so great as he expected. He (Mr. Baring) admitted that the re duction on glass would be a very great benefit. lie did not in the least conceal that ; but it must be also under stood that he did not mean that it would confer a direct benefit : he certainly admitted that indi rectly that reduction would be of very great advantage to the poorer classes. He believed that it would give a considerable impetus to improvements, improvements of very great extent, but some time must elapse ere its in fluence could come into operation. There were other duties remitted by the Right Honourable Baronet, and he admitt e d h ere a l so th a t t h ese reduc tions were calculated to benefit the country ; but he (Mr. Baring) should have proposed, in preference to either of those reductions, the lowering of the duty on soap ; for, as far as his opinion went, that would have been found more beneficial to the working classes. Still, no one could object to the taking off taxes. If they dealt with taxation merely in the abstract—if they turned their eyes to those reductions without comparing them with others which might have been conceded instead, the measure of the Right lion. Baronet might be considered a V( ry liberal one. And with reference to those articles on which the duty had been remitted, would it not, he asked, have been more advantageous for the classes said to benefited, if those reductions had been made. in the poor man's tea, in his butter, in his soap, in his cheese, in his tobacco, and in his coffee ? He was not so enamoured of the Right Honourable Baronet's proposal as many Honourable Gentlemen on that side of the House had expressed themselves to be. The Right Hon. Baronet had assured them that the income-tux would be taken off at the expiration of three years. He doubted much whether, at the end of that period, the Right Hon. Baronet could perform his promise. lie had no doubt that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had a firm conviction that he would be enabled to do without that tax. The Right lion. Gentleman said, no man could speak positively as to what might occur in three years hence, but looking at the premises, he felt satisfied that the re venue would right itself before the expiration of that time. When the Right Hon. Gentleman used that language he (Mr. Baring) confessed be did not believe the prospects he predicted were likely to arise. The Right lion. Gentleman turned to cerain years, in which he said they would find that so much taxation was taken off, and in a short time afterwards the re venue improved. Now, he begged the House to bear in mind what the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement was. The Right lion. Gentleman said, they intended to take off taxes to the amount of three or four millions, and in the course of three years they expected their revenue would by these means be increased five millions. Now, he (Mr. Baring) could not entertain the same sanguine hopes. No man had more confidence in the real power of the resources of the country than he had.--(Hear, hear.) He never had joined in the language of despondency which he had occasionally lit and indulged in by some Hon. Members on his own side of the House ; but still he must confess be could not now agree in the views and opinions of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Right Hon. Gentleman directed attention to the state of the revenue in 1816. lie un derstood the Right lion. Gentleman to say, that three millions of taxes were taken off in that year, and the re sult was that in 1819 the revenue improved. Now he could find no common resources of information which could help him to arrive at this conclusion.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman tried to assimilate the circumstances of 1816 with the present time ; but the Right Hon. Gen tleman had entirely forgotten the income-tax which existed at that time.—(Hear, hear.) In the year 1816, the ordinary revenue paid into the Exchequer was 71,900,0001. Was that so ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—In cluding the income-tax. . Mr. F. BARING continued—Exactly so. He thought the Right Right Honourable Gentleman had forgot ten the income-tat. Well, then, in 1816 the ordinary revenue was 71.900,000/. In 1819 the ordinary revenue was 52,155,0001., being less 19,745,000/. He was afraid the Right Honourable Gentleman would hardly be able to say that this was a consolatory result for the first iastance which the Right Honour-. able Gentleman gave in support of his statement. It was on these grounds that the Cabinet had taken up their impression that the income-tax would be taken off at the eikrof "three ears. Other cases were more clear. On 'the declination of trade in a bad year, taxes were taken off to relieve it ; in another year, trade revived and the revenue improved ; and then it was said that this was the result of the remission of tax ation. To a certain extent he admitted this. But when he came to look into the returns moved for by the Hon. Member for Carlisle, he did not see anything to justify the position which the Government had taken up, especially if they were to take the whole amount into account. There were two proofs. They might take the experience of the years 1822, 23, 24, 25, and 1826. During those years there was a large amount of taxation taken off. In 1831, 32, 33, 34, 35, and 1836, there was also a large amount of taxation taken off. If they were to take the average of the revenue of 1820 and 1821, and compared it with the average revenue of 1827, 28, and 1829, they would find that there bad been a reduction of about 13,000,000/.; but so far from the revenue having righted itself from ordinary sources, in those years they would find from these returns that there had been a loss of not less than 4,000,0001. If they took the second period of 1827, 1828, 1829, and compare it with 1837, 1838, and 1839 they would find that in the remis sion of taxes there had been a loss of 4,600,0001. If Hon. Gentlemen would refer to the returns moved for by Sir William Clay they would find that the taxes taken off between 1815 and 1830 amounted to 18,000,0001., and there had been a loss to the extent of 7,760,000/. in the ordinary sources of revenue. The House would recollect that in the whole of the Right Honourable Gentleman's explanation upon this subject, he said that in taking off those taxes he had proposed to remove, he would not only be con ferring a certain amount of relief on a large portion of the community, but that he would be borne out in doing so by the history of the acts of those who had preceded him in office. From the year 1815 to the year 1833, about 33,000,000 of taxes had been taken off, by which no less than 22,000,000/. were lost to the country. And now he would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman how he proposed to persuade this House that in his financial statement he meant to carry out the pledge he had given relative to the alleviation of taxes? There was one point to which he (Mr. Baring) wished particularly to allude, and if he did not consider it of importance he would not trespass so long upon the patience of the House. When first the Right Honourable Gentleman came into office, in the year 1842, he stated the means by which he proposed to take off the income tax at the expiration of three years. He said he should call upon both sides of the House to grant the income tax, and that, at the end of three years, he would, with out charging the Whigs with any improper expenditure of money, be able to take off a great amount of taxation by the reduction of the army and navy.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Baring) had looked at the amount required for defraying the expenses of those two great services of the country, and he had compared the estimates of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite for those services, with those of the last year of " Whig mismanagement," and he had found that the estimates of the Right Hon. Gen tleman, in this item alone, exceeded by half a million those of the last year of " Whig mismanagement." He (Mr. Baring) hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would be able to make out this part of his case to the satisfaction of the House. He (Mr. Baring) did not complain of the amount, if it should have been deemed necessary for the sustainment of the honour of the country; on the contrary he would not shrink from his share in the responsibility • but he could not avoid saying that, after all they had heard from the Hon. Gentleman of re duction of taxation ; and after the manner in which the Whig party had been held up for " mis management " and " jobbing"--,-(Great laughter).— it was not very satisfactory to have it announced that half a million more would be required for this year for the army and navy estimates than was demanded for the same, purpose during the last year of " Whig mis rule and mismanagement."—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He would not trouole the House with any further ob servations. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER appre hended, from what the Right Hon. Gentleman had said in the beginning of his speech, that it was not necessary for him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to follow him through All his topics. Neither would he follow him in his comment upon the state of the revenue and expenditnre• ' tor, from the statement of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel), of which the Right lion. G. ntle. man (Mr. Baring) made use, it was evident on the fare of it that the expenditure exceeded the ordinary resenue and that if there had not been extraordinary and nnex peer, d receipts. there would have been a de . ficiency, in dependent of the income-Lex ; and that was the ground on which his Right Hen. Friend recommended the (Vol - ttnuance of the income-tax. But they were asked, might not other means have been found for meeting the defi ciency without the income-tax? But that tax had been paid, during the years it had continued, with cheerful. ness, and had been collected without expanse. It was, therefore, thought better to continue the surplus to a larger amount than the exigence of the moment required, in order to give an immediate incentive to industrial ex ertion. The Hon. Gentleman had gone into some criti cism on the plan submitted to the Mouse on the part of the Government, as comprised in the Budget of the year, In the first place, the Right Hon. Gentleman complained that the surplus calculated on by the Government vt below what, under ordinary circumstances, they would be justified in allowing it to sink down to. He agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman that it was not expe dient to allow the surplus to be too much diminished. unless by the reduction a new stimulus would be given to industry, from which an increase of the revenue might be calculated on.---(Hear.) But what was the case in the present instance? They had adopted a measure which they thought calculated to give additional vigour to industry, and to promote in time a rapid increase in the taxation of the country. and they had in the year that had come, and the one that would succeed it, extra ordinary resources to the amount of not less than 600,000!, in each of those years. This arose from the money paid to this country under the Chinese treaty; and they had therefore thought themselves j ustified in re ducing taxation with a smaller amount of surplus than they could have done tinder ordinary circumstances. The Right Hon. Gentleman had expressed great doubts with respect to the general bearing which the reduction of taxation proposed by his Right Hon. Friend would have on the comfort of the lower orders of the people. If he had not misunderstood the Right Hon. Gentleman he stated expressly that with the exception of the repeal of the sugar duties, which he admitted would have a very material effect on the interest of that class of the people, the other taxes repealed were not calculated to afford them any particular benefit. On that point he begged to differ entirely from the Right Hon. Gentleman. There were two modes of repealing taxes which would affect the lower classes ; first, that which diminished the price of the articles they consumed ; the other, by extending the means of employment to the different classes of the community and thereby affordingthem the means of purchasing articles from which they would otherwise be debarred. Take the tax on glass as an in stance ; it was possible that the effect of the glass tax on the poor man might for a time be limited, as he would only replace his stock of glass as he consumed it. But the mere announcement of the repeal of the tax had had the effect of bringing fresh capital into the manufacture, and caused a great increase of employment by the raising of new buildings for the extension of the trade. The p.,or man, therefore, did derive most effectual benefit from the repeal of this tax. It was expressly upon the goods consumed by the poor the diminution of the cot ton tax would operate, for it peculiarly affected domes tic consumption. The diminution of the duty would be but little felt on muslins or those finer fabrics used by the higher classes, He could not entertain a doubt but that their diminution would stimulate manufactures, and make the article cheaper. The Hon. Gentleman said, take any tax, and read the report upon it, and you will find sufficient grounds to reprobate it ; but that did not prove that taxation ought to be abandoned. Any one who expected that taxation would not interfere with industry would be disappointed in that expectation. It was only by comparing the effects of different taxes, and considering what benefits would flow from the repeal, that they could form a judgment which was the most eligible for abolition. The Right Hon. Gentleman said he did not feel any great admiration for the repeal of the auction duty. lie begged to correct a misstatement which he had made in reference to the opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman on the subject, and to retract those expressions altogether. But the Hon. Gentlemen said he thought it would be much more pre ferable if the Government had, instead of repealing the auction duty, repealed the duty on the other great ar ticles of consumption. The Right Hon. Gentleman would give him leave to say, if they had only 250.000!. worth tee bestow, he did not know bow it could be be stowed in a manner more conducive to the interest. of the community. It was not sufficient for the Right Hon. Gentleman to point out other taxes which ought to be reduced. He could not repeal half of the duty on tea, nor two-thirds of the duty on tobacco, nor one-third of the duty on soap, although he admitted those diminu tions would be attended with greater benefit to the com munity. The duty raised on tea was between three and four millions, the ditty raised on tobacco was between three and four millions, and the duty raised on soap was above a million. Would not the diminution of 250,000!. upon any any of those articles be of very little benefit to the public?—(Hear, hear.) If that sum had been applied to the reduction of the duty on tea, the consumer would not have bad the benefit of it, as it would not have effected any reduction in the price of the article. The same might be said with regard to tobacco. The same might be said with regard to soap. Any such limited reduction in the duty on those articles as could have been effected by the sum of 250,0001. would have been throwing that sum utterly away, giving nothing to the consumer, and yet diminishing the r evenue . Viewing the subject in that light, the Government had to consider—not what tax pressed most heavily upon the people, but what tax, with the limited means at their command, they could repeal with the greatest advantage to the community at large ; and under the circumstances of the case, he was prepared to contend that if that sum had been devoted to the reduction of the duty on tea, or tobacco, or soap, it would have been utterly thrown away. With respect to the auction-duty, as that was hereafter to become the subject of a special discussion, he would not further allude to it ; but he should be prepared to show that, considering the amount which the tax produced, and the amount of the revenue of which they had to dispose, there was not one tax which more interrupted the course of trade, which was more unjust in principle, or the repeal of which was more essential. That repeal was not the less essential because, the tax being levied by individuals, and being in consequence of numerous exemptions burden• some only upon a limited class, its repeal could not be made the subject of popular clamour. He would then proceed to the objection which had been made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, that there was little probability that the revenue would recover sufficiently to justify the removal of the income-tax within the limited period for which that; .tax was proposed. The Right Hon. Gen aerie- had stated certain arguments which had been used by him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) which it was incumbent on hint (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to explain. He would have to state what arguments he had used, and how much of those ergumenta the Right Hon. Gentleman had excluded from his calculation. Now there was no certainty in matters of this kind. He never had and he never would take upon himself to say with certainty what might be the state of the revenue two or three years hence. No man in his senses would ee nture to do so ; he had stated, and he repeated it, that there were good and pro bable grounds for supposing that althetigh the revenue might be diminished by those reductions for the preeene yet that in three years it would be in such a orate us to leave Parliament an unfettered discretion as to any course which they might deem it expedient. to pursue. He had stated then that his hopes of the future were founded on the experience of the past; and the first case that he had instanced was that of the property-tax th y were now about to renew. He stated that they had un posed that property-tax .in October, 1842, and that if they took the amount of ordinary revenue of the country at the period when that tax was imposed, and coiner dent to the imposition of which they reduced duties to the amount of 1,400,000/e they would find that, taking the amount of the revenue on the 16th October last, the amount which had been received was precisely that which had been withdrawn from the ordinary revenue; and that revenue in October, 1844, was within a few pounds the same as it bad been before any reductions whatever bad taken place. The Right Hon. Gentleman would see that during that period a property-tax was in operation—a fact to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had altogether omitted to refer. The Right Hon. Gen tleman bad said that he (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) had referred to antecedent periods. He certainly had referred to antecedent periods to show that great benefit was to be derived from a repeal of taxes affecting the industry of the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman then adverted to the aug mentation of the estimates; and he took some credit to himself, and the Government, of which he was a Mem ber, that while they were in office they did not call on the country fcr any increased expenditure. But the Right Hon. Gentleman must know that that increased estimate did not arise from any measures within the control of the Government, but from the introduction of a new element in the warfare of nations. Whoever had been the Minister, the application of steam, as a new element of war, rendered it necessary that an increased estimate should be made to place the navy of this country on a footing of equality with that of other nations. The introduction of this power also made it necessary that a considerable sum should be applied to the making of works in the different ports of the country; and that for the sake of national protection it was requisite that an increase of vote should be taken. He was not aware that it was necessary for him to enter into any topics other than those which the Right Hon. Gentleman had referred to. He congratulated himself that the Right lion. Gentleman opposite con curred with him in the necessity for the renewal of the property-tax. He was sure that the Right Hon. Gen tleman, although he differed with him upon the reduc tion proposed, thought the time would come when it would be found that those reductions were the proper ones.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. EWART felt bound to vote against the amend ment. Anything that would set free the springs of in dustry was a benefit to the community, and therefore he would support it. He thought, as far as they could do it with propriety, it would be wiser to advert to direct taxation than indirect. He believed that direct taxation was the only means of relieving the poorer classes of the country. On referring to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet in introducing the income-tax, he found that the Right Hon. Baronet spoke of the justice of the im post, and of the classes of men in the country who had a right to pay it. On the general principle, he (Mr. Ewart) did not mean to find fault, for though he w as not in favour of an income-tax, he could not say that a tax on property was not a fair and just one. But he did think that the comprehensive system of taxation used in the time of Walpole was one which would, in many re spects, be better suited to the country. Mr. BERKELEY approved of the property-tax, which he considered had been administered in a mild and merciful manner. He thought toe been fairly and honourably made; but, at the came time, ho ---. ........___—...............—.---"' des" , wo, thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had tobt: o when!il:r,gietliyirhoililatrhifeyiragoodorelhreiteltructrielness. cheerfulness.—(He ealsikr,esclutdeitaaildigeibtecei He believed the remission or duty on giss4"."'..iid be great stimulus to the industry of the co"a tr Yt ', 1 -, entirely , sc d olliY ~ , hich w . aN '• vnded by the wealthy, and o aP °-- n ileillw• th- needy, lie hoped, however, that the inea flot ed approved of the remission of the aucuot O . ' , 1 )0 would not be perpe:ual, us some expected, but _,,,atri h , m,ell that thy improving resources of th '; s " . would enable them to dispense with it in a fey/Ye' Mr. MUNTZ explai Mr. HAWES would g iv e the most mitigatedun °_4'. on in hi s power tn the'continuance of and did not think its removal would eudange r Et Een. of the country. lie did not thin k the Right ll i t here' tleman had made out a ease for its contiquanae• din'' were any truth in the predictions of prosperitiTiever creased revenue which the Chancellor of the BP',.. (lA so confidently mentioned to the House, then . 17, 00 5. Hawes) thought there were so many additionail;to for abandoning this odious tax. It was a gre,a t too of on the country, and he did not think the retal i c .obla the other taxes was of a nature which woula cox the country to bear up against this heel t s ! o deof profits and upon industry.—(Hear, hear.) Tlys woo • taxing t capital was, in reality, more mischievousere 0, ax on the great articles of consumption. 0 There, another objection to the income-tax, maennichasoeser lieved Ministers from the necessity of makinf ;voter nomical reforms which were so desirable. Tne_t i l. ec o• bad never yet voluntarily advanced tovraw; b oa mercial reform. Public opinion had an, tbe propelling motive. He considered ~, „ o ar come-tax as the most formidable barrier "'O O mercial_ reform. Now, if Ministers found the ";_. t. so declining, they had only to add onto r two Per 7 i ser the income-tax, and bring it up the fortae p oi dard. If they had not this resource 'then th e f t° been make those comn3ereial changes which bad Thehitherto goo se advantageous to the country at large, foot's, Member then quoted Deacon Hume's evidence befo re o il Committee on import duties. Mr. Hume had 0 0 much pressed by the Hon. Member for Covn% foi whether certain branches of manufactures rn i g n , 19' or be deeply affected by the removal of proteen° 0 0 replied that if protection were abolished, t! re . if 0 1 might momentarily suffer ; and he added 04%00 duty were levied for revenue, and revenue 4°l3e o ftb ° was nothing to prevent the rise in the ieve n .% o st l . country to the full extent of one-third, vr. re'sll proposition of any one duty whatever. T'ensiclsly' In n ould speedily rise if revenue were alone co .o ir taxation it was class interests which so inst er r i, terfered with it. They had not acted oneo/ in the recent change in the sugar duties; they ! w og suited colonial interests, and driven ertain P. ,: t 0 sugar entirely out of the market. The inconqut, so capable of producing much more than at P p ecil es would be easily seen if they compared tiot Pr, periods of 1815 and 1844, and took into e'"evoesil altered circumstances of the country. In s°v3e 'Olll.-A -pressed very severely, and he could not ands pogo • Hon. Gentlemen meart when they said it val s e • joi p a r A in a lenient manner. In many cases it was nth ' - Or led •:., . when it ought to be imposed, whilst others to pay . more than in justice they were entioo a Mr. Fiylden, the Member for Oldham, had been itt ° for 1 . 2,000 f. a year ; he remonstrated agains: woe offered to produce his books to show that il l e s e real: was not so great, but the Commissioners P er i s e j ta? assessing him for 350 L, although he aPP et ,•ect, ,k Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 04 - 0- Gentleman.. co although that Right Ht -pourable a of warm interest in his behalf. - U PI° Oi l Al overwhelming necessity were shown , ~, for, war, or some other calamity, he would not nom continuance of so obnoxious an impost. geliwthis6thilf; know what Ministers intended to do with,,, ll ,aelos li eh 'l plus they talk-d about. The Rilit Hon. u`'" he s rls Chancellor of the Exchequersaid that, on - . April, 1846, they wou'lclehaavee surplus 01. st ' ' how was that to be appropriated? a 0 ....Iwo' (10 0 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCP.'",„.,istai l t yr 2,000.0001. would he paid to the Bank of 4" 1 " a tblt_ for an advance for the opium compensation, I' ll e qiiiP‘r maining 3;000,0001. would be carried from °D 4 to another until the end of the year. debg ? , Mr. HAWES said the people would led 6 0 0 ' little benefit, in the end. from this 50-e, l-) giglis , fot With regard to the statement made by the On .I. Gentle . man, that credit was due to the Ge ve _ ri P lf' removing the taxes on industry and oPen ig ; G e ; commercial prosprrity—when the Pr es- w ith 11 ,fei ment came into office, they were aided WO lie beP ,10 in the commercial and natural world ; fo r - off ivc d ettl etl3 -r e tb e that the favourable state of the countel wsll tis the return of good harvests, the amicable 0 openingsoil their relations with. America. and the in Cle, e . 9° l trade with China. He gave the Ries ',r e p' ces til l great credit for his measures, but their ju' ll t o n ll- W ed yet felt ; but he thought that the incom e- e- , o to 0 , Bank measure were more calculated tore ,artke!°o; vance that prosperity. He did . not see t- 0 00 0 0 any adequate necessity for the in3positioa 0 t a nt 0 0 tax, and he believed that if the Governie, 64 0 ets upon those principles which the Bight ''',4oololool opposite said were the' principles of ooreloar - .. would be a still greater revenue than " 9 ,A 10 from the income-tax.—(Hear, bear.) dole, Strangers were then ordered t o with House F di o v r id t e h d e , m w o h t e i n on t h . ....... .a . ppeared.--,.......: ;; 0 .......... • • <coot% The Ag ainst lle it .1......................... - the ChaMi n ajority against the niotion..,•:; gr. i‘ in use then went into a CO'uicatw t he" ' On clause 1 being put, which prop.-- . „tie _,A th o wis. ,h filledbtheevt im up with the word " three,' 01415 oe thoser.ord .. two," free traders moved that the blitnk,,bese cube ip; a a i r n e s u t n ea d d hi o m f te" stheprree..?.a.l3o., ottsiiigeAto,_ tended to press. his motion to a os i l- be phe..ipr eweish, in fact, that the Minister shoal ° , he 5 5 414 !.b-reommeeonin'esilad'e ke r ir y eegd ye faa a e r mti to propose this tas, no it 7 0 0 o e t u i s o . n to e that tea geffe,et,isaryeassui pe,..e... in the House might, He grehatt•th.:t not sop P e'6 thet htt t the country willinglY to e‘• present proposition. He tit" Submitted to to A tiO n e _income-tax, though he was surP- fer pter "pi Exchequer, e i e t eu y , House, ea,b o w( f )uht L e nt o h n Ai r d it o ry. n Lon d on, eawan'rhsaiitcathegret, had, ee t in si. ll ,, eriict i e ti o l s : ; f lo th il e o Exchequer, against the propviearstyte*iet:ls 14,es$:btlfl more spirit on the present occasion, an d . thought "'" Old' City of London was concerned, he . the gs Hon. Baronet would be justified in called c t iin the on n the sam e 3.dpublleoft he . 0 7 , 3 Ds he a had been a supp rter of the Governaietipg;:bit poi ,i te to s l t; o ite The Membe r s CHANCELLOR of therEXCHVCI • $e ve ld ~ Lila( owns now A urpoi.ooB 7 rih oh? 1, pad speak, but was met with cries of "s•' - ' t hat m e bor that as it appeared the wish of the Ilousewberfbete4 to not argue the proposition of the 800. M e disee er I A the Hon. Member would not think it W I) f rotv him if he abstained from doing so• rif he Mr. GREENE askid the Hon. Menibe l be divide? e Pt r. CURTEIS—Yes.—(OII oh.) . b awl , M Strangers were then ordered to wit, 1 7 Committee divided, when there appeare°-- For the amendment ..................... 4 Against it ........................ • ..,,69 Majorit . y . . against-.. it .......... •••• I t i e On our re-admittance into the gallery addsbitied Mr. AGLIONBY was en his leg!, „ c o, P i ; so House. He said the tax, in many Ins,_til p erid i r t hai t with peculiar force upon the landlord, v e u j o pt or e illustration tteuld b. tier explain what b e be . fi er e any ~ligthened argum' nt. They rniguicin; eroP,er that in man parts of the country sten ' h i e ofr,o the sold by what was called public roup• Fi e dors 'Ad whatever the crop mipht be, were kn be LA oeke d ii,(l P. / t he highest bidder—the landlord, be it rev:l4'o3 the rates and taxes. He very same tenant for a couple of years--treclue? jes r ete ll, year—hut in that case the gross rents t hat the r oe , against the landlord. Would it be said, deductf tbe ~0 0 lord had not a right in such a case to __, the vitt' and • taxes paid tor parochial purposes frow 00 e a Wid er 00 amount returned to the Comm w ere _ ea re,e „ o rs come-tax ? The land assessors, they W; 001forropel were l' acie 0 w b ol all sorts of tricks. An appeal had bees njoitileldesi than one instance, to the local authorities, i _ rit y to_ je returned for answer, that they has no 11°1 ;1 Til o aro with the matter. 'The Board of StaruPsoopisslat 0, London had no power to control the local ;h e lee'; s ol —their province being only to a dvise. had es sessors and tie tax-collectors, in rusty °se by ;Fier mistaken their duties, and the sprit 9 made a prof 01 to the Board of Local Commissioners 1 1 , 6 0bt es 0 he satisfactory because they a lder were in, ?„tenees'be construction of the Act. U hese elreu—,,ifen °dad. thought that extended powers ought to he edelle'- Board of Stamps and Taxes, for the purpose _...,vt O il ing this evil. - -..-NUPP bie -The CHANCELLOR of the EXCPJ-• 0 0 CO no' tt that he should be ready to remedy , s s 00 0 - 110 power, the inconveniences arising from thae,„Lted ofrer. the tax. He had never had his attention ni t . o!: be circumstances stated by the on. 31 ero Ir . co ' t ad ou' i ., mouth (Mr. Aglionby), and, herefore, e b ~ reSrl o o Ni ! s i ipten tiv yr expected, at that time, to be prepared Had the Hon. Member given notice d hlilor °“he 0' bring the subject forward, he (the Chance r _ t bet ter chequer) would have made himself soinev"' Aoe edi t quainted with the particular evil. . Wry - ha Mr. AGLIONBY spologisecl for halloC,e dap_ it , the matter without giving notice on a prevais‘,;l opea as he had not intend , d to create any diseu,..ll, be thought such notice was wholly unneeema.edil 0100 Sir R. PEEL said that it had been d ee we relf,.,,to o to the 1 0 111 fine themselves to the of advice. _ gene pot, that the Board of givingm Taxes should 00 1 tiv to missioners. They confined night s I 5 iiptoastisnibglythseoimr oeplioncialoncoonmwn3hias Act of ate %,- their own peculiar reading of the Act ; u" noo' generally, he thought that the con Ye t tsiwonaersreegeobrt iillll,9:66;oltftre4ilo7 stoners had given satisfaction. e.„. for C°c.l of Mr. WAKLEY said the Hon. Member ,v twa rl op mouth spoke of giving more powerhoto :;roPe t rg l Of Stamps and Taxis. He (Mr. K the Commissioners. Their limited po et, ~." T he co ge n _,7 o 'ol to offer to the House, but it wWasatolZ:vnetl.t.sherroeeed: greatest inconvenience, as, for instan. ~.o' 7 r he la. !i re . landlord whose tenant d abscondert_oooo Diosneo was called on to pay t h eyncome-tyto_ii Co 'lily' T he ceivcd no rein! for his land, and the l t. rs ,i,bility...,o had no power to absolve him L. this veto SC.,r;eo landlord not only lest his rents, btost,°,. b,cl 057.eore' called upon to pay the tax upon reti e r U , ; ooc h b ; , ,, 5 4 1 a ceived. Such was the fact in th u t ha a rec , .„ the sented, and also in Marylebone• II g e ~, , ,b , iivetiro in Copy of a letter from a Mr. Challoltoerinissioo! a wo od Edgeware-road, addees,ed to th • • G T : p e k • ore the income-tax, and as it was not . _ r _Y, l o ° o ei 0 2 . 1$51 _ 0 vii th trouble the House with it:—,. The tocu,„„tiettuUhe el of the Tr , asury have considered your ;tot L s s he regaid to tlie di.,tie.,s wade epee you if ;n; party-tax, and i agn da ected W occi"" eir for rer ree 1 THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY MORNING, MARCH 6, 1845.