The Sun. — London, England, 1839-03-22 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION. uncharged sovereign by hot water or a hot iron, that the temperature of both might be the same. Here, however, no such objection could be raised. The piece of metal was the same throughout the experiment ; and, as it was held in the hand throughout the experiment, temperature could give no information. For her to judge when it had touched the gold was an absolute impossi bility, even if she know anything, which she did not, of its being touched with gold at all. The anti-mesmeric power of iron was repeatedly ex hibited by the application of a piece of it to gold in the palm of her hand when this was in a state of contraction through the gold. The hand instantly relaxed. The same was the case when the gold had been removed, but 'violent contraction of the empty hand was induced by friction with anything after mesmerised gold had been applied and removed. Applied to the outside of any contracted part it caused instant relaxation. Applied to her forehead or lips when in stupor, it made her sud denly open her eyes, and she was instantly all life again. The experiments with mesmerised and unmesmerised water were repeated with the same undeviating results as on former occasions. These may, without doubt, be ap pealed to triumphantly as proofs of the truth of mesmerism. On Wednesday the 6th, another exhibition took place, and upwards of 170 ladies and gentleman were assembled. Master Salmon was shown in in perfect health. He had suffered but one epileptic fit since the first of his mesmeric treatment, and that had lasted but one-fourth of the usual time, and been unattended by uncon ciousness. Jane, the younger Okey, was introduced in a state of childish delirium. Alimiekry, waggery, and high spirits, united with extreme silliness, were as remarkable in her as in her sister ; and there was a strange perversion of language. In all these respects there was a perfect uniformity and consistency, as in Elizabeth. Dr. E. appealed to all the company whether, in the midst of such volubility, such incessant excitement, it would be possible for any one to go on all day, and every day, without tripping. But he had never once during a year and a half seen a single flaw or inconsistency in the deli rium of either sister ; and yet the language, ways, and turn of mind, were distinct in the - two. Jane was today in the highest degree of susceptibility to movements of other person's hands, and was fixed and stupified by any one at pleasure, both at distances and behind her back. Nothing could be more wonderful than to see her suddenly fixed in the midst of. a sentence or action,—absolutely converted into a statue. If the movement with the hand of any person was made rapidly, the effect, as on her sister, was to knock her down senseless. If very slowly, it would not fix her, but stupify her, and cause her to continue re peatieg what she was saying cr doing. If she was grin ing or singing when this was done, she would become un conscieus, and continue making the same face or singing the surrt!tune over and over again. To see her and her sister come out of the stupor was astounding. They had no idea of what had happened, but seemed to think that all the company had gone away from them aad come hack. The contact of any body's hand for a short time stupified her, and rendered her per fectly rigid. She leirpened to see a young gentleman whern she recognised, and instantly ran to him and childishly threw her arms round his neck, and was thus instantly fixed, senseless and rigid. If any one got away from her, when she was thus holding him or her tight unconsciously, she remained in the same position, and wee thunderstruck on coming to herself at finding ceie there. To give an adequate description of these phenomena is impossible. Dr. E. stated that she had fallen spontaneously into this delirium a week ago, and wouki :eeeain in it till Wednesday the 20th ; and that it would be in vain for him to attempt at present to restore her, and show her to the company in hernatural comfit:on. Elizabeth Okey was brought in. She, likewise, was delirious. Dr. E. said that the experiments with the metals and water, made at the last meeting, had pro duced such an insusceptibility that he had been unable to send her to sleep and restore her to her senses. He ettled that this was the invariable result of influencing her much with metals or water. That, for a time, it was ;mpes;ible to produce any effect by gold or water, ex cept, indeed, a violent depression, which was unsafe, and he wee satisfied might be carried even to a fatal result. He therefore. always left her alone for some time after these experiments, and then he readily sent her to sleep and restored her. The only mode of re . ,torine her was to send her into a mesmeric sleep, and to maintain this for a certain time, while opposite means were used to awaken her. It she was awakened soon, she always awoke delirious. It was necessary to awaken her very slowly, by using the means of awaken her and maintaining the sleep at the same time. The experiments with gold, iron, plain lead and unrifled lead, and friction after the application of mes merised metals, were repeated, with the same satisfactory results as on former occasions. Dr. E. having mentioned that the power of gold was so superior to that of all other metals, except nickel, that the effects on her were an excellent test of the value of metallic jewellery, the Marquis of Blandford, who was un known to her, put a ring into her hand, when instantly the most violent contractions took place. His Lordship then stated that it was of the finest gold. A gentleman next pet a cor:ceon gold ring into her hand, and the efect wits much less. The Sardinian Minister asked per ' mission to put a l arge b uc kl e i n eac h of her hands. 3 1 This was done. She was then told to close her hands, ; and then to open them. One hand she instantly opened, the other she could not. Count Polloni and a lady then said that the hand which could not be opened . contained a buckle of real gold, and that which was opened a merely gilt buckle. The lady had come to Dr. Elliot son's a sceptic with the Count ; and, hearing what Dr. Elliotson said, had informed the Count that she had a buckle of gold, and her daughter one exactly like it in appearance, but gilt ; and she thought they would afford an excellent opportunity of testing the truth of what Dr. Elliotson had asserted, and therefore requested the experiment might be made. Some time afterwards the Count having held one of the buckles, nobody knew which, some time in his own, put it into the girl's hand. She instantly dropped senseless, snoring loud. He then said it was the gold buckle. The inferior power of silver was shown by a sovereign and a shilling held in Dr. Elliotson's hand, an equal length of time, being put one into her right hand, the other into her left. The hand with the sovereign con tracted much more than that with the shilling. , - The power of traction was last exhibited. The fingers of both hands of Dr. Elliotson, or other gentlemen, were pointed towards one of her arms or legs, or to her head or body, and gradually drawn away. The part to which they were pointed grew rigid and followed. She was thus drawn in any direction at pleasure ; she was stupified, unconscious of what was doing, in some instances, and in others was distressed 1 at the traction, and opposed it in vain. To show that the effect could be produced without her knowledge, Dr. E. stood behind her and extended his arms ; her arms be came extended and stiff. He then raised his hands, it being impossible she could see him, and her hands both rose. II Tee effects of traction were movement, rigidity, and stunefaction. He thus opened her mouth, and both eyelids widely, fixing the latter in an awful stare. But, whenever the effect in moveable parts was carried far, coma ocurred, and she dropped senseless. The sight of her, stupified, and made to rise, in a rigid state, from her chair, was one of the most wonderful things we ever saw. Dr. Elliotson declined making the experiments with water, as she had been recently bled, and was alwayr greatly depressed by mesmerised water, though applied merely to the hands or face. It appeared to absorb the power so greatly, and again give it out so freely, that it caused extreme depression ; while experiments, in compelling the strongest and most rapid movements of the body, con tiaued fi,r hours, caused no fatigue. He feared that the numerous experiments made with gold, especially with the large gold buckle, would prevent him from being able to send her into a sleep sufficiently long for him to awaken her in her senses. However, he said h e would try. He stupified her by waving his hand before her face once rapidly. He then pressed each of his palms upon her ears—a method which would wane her in her senses, if she awol,e only after many minut, , s. But she presently aysol-..„, and delirious. Lord -I\l oll3o u then continued wa"..ang his hand downwards before her, in ordrir to 1,-eep her asleep, while Dr. E. carried on the wakri:4* process by pressing on her ears. But in vain. S l '.d awoke soon—delirious. The trial was made rer,atedly but she could not be kept asleep, always wa l :ang soon, and delirious. Dr. E. said that the ape .ation of gold had so lessened her susceptibility, that nothing would now throw her into a state of pro knnd and continued sleep. Several ladies and gentle. men met with the patients afterwards in the different rooms, and made successful experiments themselves with the hand ; and thus became firmly convinced of the truth of all they had seen. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. Stn,—lnferring from the frequency with which you have adverted to the subject of the following observa tius, that you feel some degree of interest in it, I beg leave to trouble you with this letter. If you deem it Worthy of insertion in your columns I shall feel obliged by your giving it a place. if, in the hearing of one wholly ignorant of magne- Imp and electricity, we were to describe the various re markable phenomena which can be produced by the ac, ton of certain bodies upon each other, we should very orprob,ably be t o ld e ith er t h at we were deceiving ourselves, tn auditor we wish e d t o pract i se upon t h e credulity of ou r ven T.hat in a:z i nzate bodies, through a considerable inter distance, should be capable of affecting each to produce motions of various kinds, and in i:rection s , might a ppe ar to hi m to b e so corn ,beyond . the r age of probability, as to warrant him only in refusing credence to our account, but to pistil* / e ve , hi s dm : - so doing 'eould havemtHhg to witness the effects, lest his the possibility .; t a h p e raran ce of at least his ad mittingroduction. The indivi dual thus actin g miAit Probably rp lbe ignorant, and un educat eti—or he might he de read . in the various matters appertainin g to his owe'rli) yavocatton short, he 'night be, in his own estimation, and even in that of the world, a most learned man. In either case, at ever, the refusal to receive evidence of the truth of the alleged effects, proceeds from a similar perversion of the mind,—in the one instance from the bigotry of ignorance —in the other from the inexcusable bigotry of learning. I have been induced to offer a few observations on the subject of this paper, owing to the treatment which Dr. Elliotson has met with, in consequence of his endea vours to inquire into the truth of the alleged effects ca pable of being produced by mesmerism. I acknowledge myself to be almost wholly ignorant of the subject, prac tically ; I admit that I rather incline to the side of un belief than otherwise ; but I avow myself to be one of those, whose sole object is the search after, and, if pos sible, the attainment of the truth. And, surely, that object can never be attained so long as abuse and ridicule are substituted for argument and careful experimental in vestigation ; nay, in the case of Dr. Elliotson, even persecution has been resorted to. But to proceed more immediately to the subject : for the reason I have already adduced, it is not my intention to inquire whether mesmerism is, or is not based upon facts, but merely to attempt to trace how far it may be considered to be founded in reason. This I prefer doing by a comparison of analogies, which, if care fully and dispassionately considered, will, I think, so far simplify the effects said to be produced, as to enable us to '.few them in the same light as other phenomena equally curious, but which appear to us natural and devoid of mystery, because they are fami liar. 1. What, for instance, can he more familiar to medical men than the invariable effect of excitement in one organ, or part of the system, producing a correspon dent depression in another ? Can any one of Dr. Elliotson's opponents deny this, or, although obliged to admit the fact, can they offer any reasonable explana tion of it, or, further, can they give any explanation whatever ? 2. What can be more true than that one individual can produce effects upon another without contact or communication,—as in the case of yawning, hysterics, and in other instances which it is needless to particula rise. Will Dr. Elliotson's opponents pretend to deny the production of such effects, or will they attempt to explain them ? If they do, we shall be treated with a great deal of unintelligible jargon about sympathy, and the nervous system, for the effects to which we have alluded, and all similar influences,have been ascribed to something which is termed sympathy. Why, what is sympathy, but mesmerism, or, to to use a more startling term, animal magnetism ? The simple question, then, appears to be, not whether there is such a power as animal magnetism, but to what extent such a . 1 power is capable of being applied ? This question is to be answered, not by those who, in an unphilosophical spirit of self-sufficiency, condemn the practice without examination, nor yet by those who, in an equally unphi losophical spirit, set about a partial examination, with minds predetermined to condemn ; but by those only, who, with minds unbiassed and free from prejudice, institute a careful experimental investigation of the phe nomena said to be produced by mesmerism. I shall, at a future opportunity, return to the subject ; but shall be exceedingly obliged to any gentleman who feels disposed to condemn without the trouble of in quiry, if he will attempt to give satisfactory answers to the following very simple qustions. 1. What is the reason that if, in the company of a number of individuals, one happen to yawn, a similar ceremony is gone' through by others of the company ? 2. If it may not be considered that this is one of th e first steps towards mesmerism ; inasmuch as that yawn ing is generally considered to be one of the symptoms of fatigue, and of an inclination to fall into the arms of Morpheus? And if so, whether we cannot proceed a step further, and produce actual sleep, instead of merely inducing the symptoms? Before I conclude, I beg leave to apologise to Dr. Elliotson, (with whom I have not the pleasure of being acquainted) for having taken up my pen apparently in his defence. I disclaim any intention of doing so ; for that gentleman is fully capable of defending himself, and any cause which he may advocate. My sole desire is to elicit the truth. I have myself experienced with what sweeping and unfounded assertions an individual sometimes is met who ventures to promuigate any new theory, or even a fact which is not sufficiently understood, because it is not inquired into, or, perhaps, because the intellect of the condemning party was too obtuse to permit of his un derstanding it. It would be well if some of our very learned men would bear in mind the words of Shak speare, that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophy. They would then hesitate before they condemned ; they would in quire ere they formed even an opinion ; nay, they would be induced to exercise the iery commendable virtue of charity towards those, who, compared with themselves, are, doubtless, immured in the grossest darkness of ig norance, but who, in a rash moment, presume to speak of things, which those learned men never even dreamt of. I have appended my name to this communication, because I do not approve of the system of anonymous writing, too much the fashion of the present day, and do not feel disposed to practise myself that which I con demn in others. I am, Sir, yours, &c. London, March 16, 1839. WM. LEITHE AD. NATIONAL CONVENTION. (YESTERDAY.) Mr. KNOX, Delegate from Durham, in the chair. REV. MR. STEPHENS. Letters were read from numerous bodies expressive of confidence in the Convention, among which were the Carpenters' Association, the Working Men's Associa tion, and also from Carlisle to the same effect. This letter also said that they had remitted twenty-two pounds to the " Stephens Defence Fund ;" the Carlisle Bank re fused to make the money-order payable to that gen tleman. Mr. WHITTLE handed in a roll of 472 signatures to the National Petition from the agricultural labourers of Rye, in Sussex, and that vicinity; also from Kelvin, in Ayrshire, lauding the Convention for their conduct, and offering their support, even at the expense of their lives. MORNING CHRONICLE NEWSPAPER AND THE WHIG RECOMMENDATION TO ARM. _ _ Dr. M‘DowALL brought forward his - motion, " That certain extracts from the Morning, Chronicle newspaper, recommending to the people to arm in defence of the Constitution, while the agitation for the Reform Bill was going on, be read." Dr. M'Dnwall said, Radicals of true principles were found to be unchangeable, no matter how much the times changed. They never could be altered by , circumstances until the objects of their desires were ob tained. But it seemed to be different with the Morning Chronicle,who, at the time to which his motion alluded to, was indefatigable in the recommendation to the people to arm. But now that the employers had attained their object, they reprobated in set terms the right of the people to arm themselves.—(Hear, bear.) He would read them from a work which had been recommended by the Morning Chronicle as one of the best for their study which had been published for a long time. It was a treatise published by Count Maceroni, Aid-de- Camp to Murat, King of Naples. The extracts were as follows—during their recitation Dr. M'Dowall was loudly applauded:— " The People, the Labourers, the Artizans—the un washed Artizans, the Journeyman Printers, the Jour neyman Tailors, and other artizans, formed the mass which took the cannon, defeated the Artillery, beat down the Lancers, routed the Royal Guards (22,000 strong) and raised the siege of Paris."—Morning Chronicle, Aug. 6, 1830. (This was the motto attached to the book.) From the Preface of the book recommended by the Morning Chronicle, he would read what Mr. Mace roni says— _ " The clear and superabundant demonstration of the right of all Englishmen to arms, and to use them for their protection against political, clerical, or any other rob bers, and the manly exhortation addressed by the Edi tors of the Times and Morning Chronicle to the suffering people, are documents of interest at the present moment, as they set the question on which they treat satisfacto rily at rest. I have, therefore (says M. Maceroni), thought it well to begin this little work by the transcrip tion of those articles for the benefit of such of my readers who have nit seen them in the original. My two let ters, extracted from the Morninrg chronicle, will suffi ciently develop my intentions. The exposition of my new armament, called " Foot Lances," will, I trust, be useful. The instructions on " Rifle-shooting," buck-shot, and common cartridge will prove available to the people if they are attended to. With regard to field fortification 1 by no means give it as sufficient. " N. 13.—1 can furnish any number of lances at 10s. each." From the iWorning Chronicle, Nov. 12, 1831 : " Without the consent and authority of Government it it is not lawful for citzens to form themselves into armed associations. It was our opinion that Govern ment might derive material assistance from armed as sociations of citizens at this conjucture, but if Govern ment does not share in this opinion, the people must abstain from all attempts at arming in bodies. But an inquiry into the means of the most efficient mode ofarming violates no law ; as the subject is of much interest we are induced to lay before our readers a plan by Colonel Maceroni, Aid-de-camp to the King of Naples, (Murat) prefaced by a letter from Colonel Evans. W e & add to it a letter from Sir H. Torrens, in the name of the Commander-in-Chief, in which he states that his Lordship has been struck by the ingenuity and simpli city of many o f t h e i nvent i ons b roug ht t o his notice. The expense m a y b e mater i a l w h en an army is supplied with everything, but the cheapness of the plan, only ten shillings per man, is its great recommendation." Mornin g Chronicle, November 14, 1831 :—" Our declaration, that it would be madness to arm without the aut h or i ty of Government was meant only in respect to ermine' in bands. It is well known that every Englishman is entitled to have arms. And our public writers do nut he sitate to state that the o bj ect o f t h e aws which recognise this right, is t o ena bl e t h e peop l e to avail themselves of their natural r i g h t o f res i stance, when the laws are insufficient te secure them aga i ns t i oppression. It is well known, for nitance, that the late meetings were making preparations fof keeping down the people by forcible means—indeed the evidence of their intentions are in existence. When any set of men sets at defiance the opinions and feelings of a whole nation, and attempt to govern by force, then, to use the words of Mr. Fox, " Resistance becomes a duty." Ministers are of course well aware of the injustice of the principle which refused to towns what it granted to Squires— the yeomanry—but their hands are tied. Howe ver, let us do what we can, though we cannot do all that we wish. We are all by law entitled to arm ourselves, and we ought to avail ourselves of the privilege. We can unite, though we cannot arm ; and if a time should come when it is necessary to unite and to arm, we shall nut be caught unprovided." Morning Chronicle, Nov. 18, 1831.—" We publish a full report of the Birmingham meeting of the Political Council of that town, held on Tuesday last—the great parent stem of all the other Political Associations. We regret that a mis-statement which appeared of their former meeting last week, erroneously stated our intentions of converting the Union into an armed Association. No such proposition was contemplated. This great political combination for the accomplishment of reform, and the final overthrow of the boroughmongers is too dis creet to travel outside the circle of constitutional law. The Council, in the projects of unions and combina tion, are well aware that no Government could allow armed associations not commissioned or empannelled by the Crown. They distinctly confine their project to organization. Subdivision of labour and sectional ar rangements are the vital spirit of all societies and com binations, whether public or private, in their views and objects. There may be, or might be, laws to prevent such political unions from arming their members—there are none and can be none— (yea, not even manufactured by the Boroughmongers or the craft of a Sir Robert Halfway)—which can prevent Britons as private individuals from purchasing, possess ing, and independently enjoying the custody and use of arms ; all our great charters of liberties—all our ancient usages and customs, invest Englishmen with the right of arms. Columns of ancient lore might be quoted to prove this great constitutional axiom and principle ; from the most ancient law writers, to the period of Blackstone. It was among other tyrannies the particular invasion of this national privilege, which drove the Stewarts from the throne of their ancestors. The Bill of Rights, according to its 7th article, guarantees to the nation, among its ancient rights, as follows :—That the subjects who are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their condition, and as allowed by law. By the 20th Edward the First all who possessed forty libratus terra.' bear military arms, but the whole law and spirit of our Constitu tion is founded on the natural principle that whoever has property ought to be in a condition to de fend it." Now he (Dr. M'I)owall) would observe that the labouring man has no property but his labour, therefore why not have a right to defend that property as well as the aristocracy ? " Harrington considers that in every free country there ought to be no army, but a cavalry of nobility and gentry, and an infantry of the commons. But in England, as our boroughmongers have managed it, the arms are in one set of hands under their pay and influence, and the property in another. There is but one safety—we must connect once more the civil and military power. Every Reformer able to bear and obtain arms ought to po'ssess himself of those necessary articles. 'We must sleep on our arms, and wake to the sound of the trumpet and drum—or the enemy will break up our camp. Sir William Jones, in his admirable essay on the legal means of suppres sing riots, proves that the Constitution does not forbid, but enjoins the use of arms. Votes without arms— the right of resistance without the power—are as useless as artillery without ammunition." The article concludes with these emphatic words—" The gates of the temple of Janus will be shut only when ,the base boroughmongers cease to make war on the liber ties and properties of their countrymen. UNION —ARMS —REFORM." Dr. 11I'DowALL said that the right of arming was allowed by the base scribe of the Chronicle, when his purpose was to augment the faction for whom he was an advocate. But now, when the people were seeking to attain their recovery of their lost liberties, they were denounced by this venal print for adopting what would the best means of success. A resolution was then passed, appointing a Committee to prepare these and other ex tracts of a similar tendency. _ _ (The book which had been the subject of the Morning Chronicle's recommendation, was handed about the Convention. To front the title-page is a large frontis piece, which represents in high colour a great many figures in military exercise, showing the vast superiority of the pike and lance as weapons of defence or attack.) In the course of the discussion which this resolution gave rise to, it was stated by Mr. Carpenter that the reason of the artillery being sent down to Manchester this morning was from the tone which the Corn-law Delegates took with regard to ulterior measures, Mr. Plint, one of that body, giving expression to sentiments which were of a much more dcterminatory nature to resort to ulterior measures than any thing, which had occurred among the Chartists. Mr. RICIIAIZDSON, of Manchester, said that nothing could be more peaceable than the conduct of the people of Manchester; there was not the slightest idea of disturbing that peace among the Radicals ; therefore it was not to keep them down that that the flying artillery had been expressed down there this morning —but, to prevent any out-break in conse quence of the proceedings of the Corn-law manufac turers, who, to gain their objects by any method, were going to discharge vast numbers of their hands, and to reduce the wages of the remainder in order that it might serve as an argument of the ill effects of those laws.—(Hear, hear) After this resolution had been disposed of, the meet ing proceeded to discuss the propriety of allowing cer tain of the Missionaries to remain out some time longer. It was finally resolved that they should return next week, acccording to the resolution passed when they were sent out. After auditing the Treasurer's accounts For the week, the Meeting voted thanks to the Chairman, and dis solved. LONDON and BIRMINGHAM RAIL WAY—WARWICK, NORTH.--(YESTERDAY.) The Committee on this Bill met at Twelve o'Clock, Mr. DUGDALE in the Chair. After hearing the argu ments of counsel the room was cleared ; and, on the re-admission of the public, The CrtatamAN declared the Committee to be of opinion that the preamble of the Bill was proved. The Committee then adjourned until To-morrow. The Members of the Sheffield Literary and Philosophical Society have refused to elect Ebenezer Elliott, the poet, a Member of their body, by a majority of five. THE FRENCH, As FlDDLERS.—Brilliancy of style, neatness and finish of execution, are their distin guishing traits. They are a gay and a polished nation— they are gay and polished fiddlers. They animate you in the vivace, they dazzle you in the allegro brillante—but they commonly fail to reach your heart through the adagio appasionato. Their violinists have all the skill that is in dependent of deep feeling. In expression they fall short of what is required; they catch its lesser graces, but they seem rarely to attain its higher powers. The violin, con sidered more particularly as the fiddle, is an instrument too congenial to the temperament of the French to have es caped their especial notice and close cultivation. To all that is mercurial in their tendencies, as well as to much that is artificial in their habits, it lends itself with the ut most readiness : it is the best instrument to dance to ; it is the best instrument to protect from ennui your sitters at a theatre. It sharpens the pungency of an air de vaude ville, it sets off the ceremonial of a ballet. In this sense the French have " marked it for their own," and achieved wonders with it. Out of this sphere—this lower empire— their power seems to have been less considerable. —Du bourg on the Violin. A TTEMTED SUlClDE.—Yesterday morning, be tween seven and eight o'clock, James Cutler, aged 33, under-butler in the family of Edward Fletcher, Esq., M. P., of Park-street, Grosvenor-square, was discovered by one of the female domestics lying extended on the floor of his pantry, surrounded with blood, and writhing in the agonies of death. One of his razors was lying beside him covered with blood. Surgical aid was instantly pro cured, but from the desperate nature of the wound it was found necessary immediately to remove him to St. George's Hospital. He was not, however, expected to survive until he reached there. Mr. Fletcher and family were expected in town yesterday from their country seat. The cause of the unfortunate man committing the rash act is unknown. PETWORTII.—The body of young Hersee, who was unfortunately drowned at Stopham-bridge, during the storm of Thursday, November 29, 1838, was discovered on Saturday last, lying in an osier bed between Mr. King's, of Bignor, and Fittleworth-mill. It was recognised by the shoes and the key of the deceased's box, which was found in his pocket. At the time the accident happened Hersee had on a new smock-frock, but when the body was discovered there were found upon it only a neck-herchief, trousers, shoes, and stockings. Both hands were gone, as also all the hair from the bead. Search for his com panion in the fatal accident has been re-commenced, but as yet without avail.—Brighton Guardian. ACCIDENT BY FlRE.—Between nine and ten o'clock on Tuesday morning Henry Piren, aged twelve years, the son of Mr. James Piren, of No. 15, Vincent street, Shoreditch Church, wheelwright, w.is reaching a pin from the mantel-piece, when his pinafore caught fire, and before the flames could be extinguished he was burnt so dreadfully about the head and neck that it is feared that the sight of both his eyes is for ever destroyed, and at present he is considered to be in imminent danger. TREASURE TROVE EXTRAORDINARY ! 1— On Monday last, a man named Benjamin Clare, found a large ban. of money buried in a bank near the place wh ere the cattle fair is held, containing 12 half crowns, 17 shil lings, 107 sixpences, and 6 fourpenny pieces. He was about to calculate in what way he should dispose of this unexpected fortune, but thinking " honesty the best policy," waited upon Mr. G. Russell, the Superintendent of the Police, and acquainted him with the discovery, at the sane time requesting his assistance to find out, if possible, the rightful owner—when lo ! upon a further examination, the whole of the coins proved to be counterfeit. These coins arc supposed to have been buried, about a month since, by the wife (1 a man who is now undergoing punish ment for having circulated bad money.--Cheltenham Chronicle. THE c:1 1 N, LONDON, FRIDAY, MARCH 22, 1839. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Minca 21. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before four o'clock. Mr. Bucx was introduced by Sir J. Y. BULLER and Mr. PARKER, and took the oaths and his seat for North Devon. On the motion of Major WOOD, the General Ce metry Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. LONDON AND BLACKWALL RAILWAY. Mr. CRAWFORD presented several petitions against this Bill from several parts of London. Mr. ALSTON moved the second reading of the Bill. 11Ir. CRAWFORD said that it became his duty as one of the representatives of the City of London to move as an amendment to the motion of his Hon. Friend that the Bill should be read a second time that day six months. Favourable as he was, and many Gentlemen were to sending Bills of the present description to be investigated before a Committee,•he thought he should be able before he sat down to persuade Hon. Members that the present measure ought to be made an exception to the general rule. There was nothing new to be elicited before the Committee—the grounds taken were sufficiently before the House, and no delay would vary the circumstances from what they at present were. The subject of the present Bill was first before the House in 1836. At that time there were two contending parties to the golden harvest that was to be reaped in carrying the plan into execution. The party advised a line that was to enter the City of London near Houndsditch, and have its terminus in Leadenhall-street. That line the surveyor of the City of London, notwithstanding the phalanx of engineers that were against them, could not be car r i e into execution without destroying the whole of the sewers of the City in the district through which it was to pass. The other line was to go over the Minories, and it had its novelties, inasmuch as it was to be a railway upon arches. The inhabitants of that part of London opposed that line, on the ground that their property and trade would be injured by it ; and before the Committee the proposers of it found it necessary to come to an agreement that the railway should not enter the City of London at all, hut that its commencement should take place 200 feet from the eastern side of the INlinories, and no land was to be purchased in the City of London. After this agreement had been entered into, the parties had reason to suppose they would not be kept in a state of anxiety ; but in 1837, another Bill was brought in, in order to repeal those clauses, to allow an extension of the railway into the City of London, beyond where it was intended in crossing the Minories, and to go to Leadenhall-street. During the time the Bill was in the House, negotiations were entered into for the purpose of clearing away all the buildings. They not only gave this up, but not liking the hostility of the East India Company, they with drew that part of the scheme. Tney still had to contend with the opposition of the parishes and of the City of London. Whilst that Bill was in progress a dissolution of Parliament took place in consequence of the death of the late King. The year 1838 passed over with certain threats, which kept the parties in great anxiety, but no application was made to Parlia ment. He now came to the Bill before the House. The preamble merely stated that it is expedient to extend the railroad into the city of London, and upon that the parties asked the House to repeal the clauses which bound them not to do this act, to lend itself to enable the railroad Proprietors to break faith with the parties who had contested the original Bill. Now, it was fair to look at the estimation in which this rail way was held. The shares were 251. each, and the parties had been called on to pay 91. The price in the market was now under 71., so that any original subscriber wishing to abandcn the undertaking, must be content to sacrifice 25 per cent, of the principal money, in order to get some person to stand in his shoes. On the part of his constituents he would appeal to the justice of the House. Those individuals who were carrying on business had been kept in a constant state of anxiety since 1835, notwithstanding the engagement which the proprietors of this railway entered into. He hoped a sense of justice would induce Hon. Members to vote for the amendment, which was essential to so large a body of persons. He had not touched upon any of the ques tions that might arise in Committee, but had confined himself simply to the principle, whether the House would lend itself to breaking the agreement which had been entered into. If the House once allowed this to be done, it would form a most dangerous precedent. Before he sat down he must notice a - paper which had been put into his hand at the door of the House. It stated that when the Bill of 1837 was in progress in the House of Lords a contract was entered into by the parties, that no opposition should be offered to a similar Bill until it had advanced to the same stage. He admitted that such an agreement took place. In consequence of this the Court. of Common Council did not come to a decision until the present Bill was on the table of the House, and Sergeant Merewether's opi n io n w as , th a t th e City o f Lon don ought to oppose the Bill in every stage. How well this accusation came from parties who asked the House to repeal certain clauses, in order to enable them to commit a breach of faith. He moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr. G. PA LIVER seconded the motion. Mr. R. ALSTON said he was not surprised at the opposition of his Hon. Friend the Member for London, because throughout the former progress of the Bill his Hon. Friend had always been determinately opposed to it. He (Mr. Alston) was in favour of the Bill, because he thought that for the safety of the public it was necessary that the number of steami boats navigating the pool should be decreased, and that he believed would be the effect of establishing this Railroad to Blackwell. It ought to be considered. that no engine would be worked within the boundaries of the City. Mr. HARVEY said he held in his hand a petition signed by the owners or occupiers of every wharf on the north or eastern side of the Thames ; and he was un derrating the proPerty held or occupied by those gentlemen, when he stated, that it exceeded half a million sterling. The petitioners opposed the Bill on this specific ground, that when the Bill was be fore Parliament in 1836, the parties opposing it were induced to withdraw their opposition on the express understanding that the railway should not come nearer the City than the eastern side of the Minories ; and it was now proposed that the railway should come into the very heart of the City.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") It was much to be regretted that such Bills should be called " Private Bills." This was a public Bill, the effect of which it would be well for the House to ob serve . If t hi s Bill passe d i nto a law, allow ing the Blackwall Railway to proceed into the heart of the city, a precedent wou ld a t once b e esta bli s h e d f or admitting all those R ai l roa d s w hi c h were now s ki rt i ng this metropolis into the city itself. —(Hear.) He would ask Hon. Members if it were proposed that the terminus of the South-eastern Railway, now fixed at Nine Elms, should be removed to Great G eorge - street — wou ld i t b e tolerated ? If it were proposed that the Birmingham line, with all its nuisances, s h ou ld b e altered from its present extremity to Holborn —would that be tolerated? —(Hear.) Yet if once the principle was established, it would be impossible to say when the advancing tide of nuisances should recede. It was in hi s k now l e d ge t h at all the property in the neighbourhood of the Birmingham railroad termination in London had been much dete• riorated ; that entire stree ts were injured ; that the private interests of every branch of trade were materially affected ; and that the confus i on which was aailywork ing in the immediate vicinity operated most perniciously. —(Hear, hear.) But these were partial evils compared with what would result from bringing this railway into the heart of the City. As many houses would be swept away as would leave the Company some acres, upon which carriages would constantly be passing and re-passing, till it would be as impossible to get through the crowd of vehicles as through the dense forest of the " far west." —(Hear, and a laugh.) As to the supposed compact with the city, he was sure that if such compact existed, it would be fully respected by the City, but it could not bind the public, nor that House—( Hear, hear)—and he ent reate d t h e H ouse t o g i ve the subject the consi deration t o w hi c h a grea t p u bli c question was entitled, and t o rescue th e pu bli c f rom the intolerable evils which would follow the passing of this 13i11.—(Hear, hear.) The House divided, when there appea red — For the second reading BO Against it Majority NORWICH IMPROVEMENT BILL. The Marquis of DOURO moved the se cond reading of the a b ove Bill . I t was to ena bl e t h e C o rporation of the City of N orw i c h to pave an d li g ht th e suburbs. That city had increased very much—indeed, from a population of 3,000, which it was when it obtained its present powers, it had increased to 22,000, and he was sure that the House would consent to the second reading of the Bill in order that such a large population might not be left an y lon g er without li g h t . Mr. SMITH said he felt called upon to oppose the motion upon several grounds ; but before stating them, he begged to say that his name had been put to the Bill as one of its promoters without his leave, and . that had b een t h e cause of much anno yance to him, as it was supposed th a t he was favourable to the Bill. There was a distinct understanding between the Town Clerk of Norwich and the promoters of the Bill ; that nothing should be done with it until after Easter. The Bill contained 177 clauses, and it undertook to regulate the paving, lighting, and watching of the town, and to establish these Commissioners into a company for making gas. N ot hi ng would be more contrary to all principle th an suc h a proceeding. He moved as an amendment, that the second reading be postponed un til after Easter. Mr. WODE HOUSE hoped the House would sup port the Bill, as it was nothing more than a measure of Municipal Reform. Sir RONALD FERGUSON opposed the Bill, on the ground that there was a positive agreement that nothing should be done with the Bill till after Easter. Lord STORMONT hoped that as there was no objection to the principle of the measure that the House would consent to the second reading, and the Committee would be postponed till after Easter, Mr. WARBURTON was satisfied, after this state ment made by the Hon. Member for Nottingham, that the Noble Marquis opposite would not persist in moving the second reading. If such an understanding had been come to, they ought certainly to abide by it. The Marquis of DOURO denied that any such agreement had been made. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared : For the second reading llO For the postponement ....., BO Majority for the second reading -30 The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to be committed. Mr. HUME gave notice, that he should move for a return of the number of visitors to the Tower. • Mr. WALLACE gave notice, that he should move certain amendments to the Supreme Courts (Scotland) Bill. EXECUTIONS IN CANADA. Mr. O'CONNELL, seeing the RiglA Hon. Gentle man, the Under Secretary for the Colonial Department in his place, would repeat the question he had asked the other evening, whether the capital executions in Canada were about to cease ? Mr. LABOUC HERE said he was happy to inform the' House that communications had been received from Sir John Colborne, and Sir G. Arthur, in which those gallant officers stated that they did not imagine any further capital executions would be necessary. HOUSEHOLD SUFFRAGE. Mr. HUME said that in rising to move this ques tion, he thought it was one well worthy the serious consideration of the House. He had endeavoured in vain to obtain a day for bringing forward this motion last Session. Had he been enabled to do so it might have prevented what had since taken place. He had endeavoured to obtain from the House an ac knowledgment that some further measure of reform was required to satisfy the people of this country, and they would not be content under the present circumstances if her Majesty's Ministers would not consent to some change which would be satisfactory to them. He had no hesitation in stating that in his opinion Re form ought to go much further. The suffrage ought to be made as extensive as possible consistently with the safety of the institutions of the country, in order that the greatest amount of suffrage might be given to the people. Representation was a very excellent invention, by which the people might he present by their delegates to do the business which affected them. He found that in former days the number of electors was very extended indeed. He believed taxation did not take place in this country until the people gave their sanction to it. It was said that taxation and representation should be co-equal. They originally were, but now they were not ; and under a system of taxation so grinding as the taxation of this country—under a system which pressed so heavily on the poor, and so lightly on the rich—he could not con ceive how any man could be satisfied. The governing power ought to give the relief which the people demanded, and it was on that ground that the Reform Bill was brought in in 1831. He could not conceive anything more consistent with the conduct of the House on the occasion than it should follow up the objects then contemplated, and if those changes had not been obtained which were absolutely nc cessarity, it was the duty of a reforming Government to endeavour to carry them out. He believed that very few Gentlemen had directed their attention to the actual situation of the representation at the present time, but if he could arrest the attention of those who were Reformers in 1831, he thought they would go along with him in saying that the object of the Reform Bill was to remove the nomination that then existed, and to change the system that gave such dissatisfaction, and to alter the mode which then existed, by which in dividuals nominated the Members of that House, and thereby took the whole political power, not only from the House of Commons but the Crown. The Crown then was much more dependant on the House of Commons than at present, because it was then de pendant on the party who could pack that House. Although a great improvement had been made in the system of elections, it was still a nomination unfair to the people at large, and almost as bad as it was in 1793. If the object was, as was stated by the Noble Lords who had introduced the Reform Bill into the Houses of Lords and Commons, that there should be a fair and a full representation of the people, he would ask any man to say whether that object had been effected by the present measure ? Fearing he might be supposed guilty of a mistake, he would reed what had been stated by Lord John Russell when he introduced the Reform Bill into Parliament :—" He proposed that the people, by this measure, should send their real representatives into that House to consider their grievances, and attend to their desires, and by that means they would identify the House with the people of the United Kingdom ;" and the Noble Earl in the House of Lords, had used identically the same language, adding that the measure, he felt no doubt, would prove one of conci liation. The avowed object of the Reform Bill, as stated by its introducers, was to extend the basis of our elec tions, to give satisfaction to the people of the three countries, and to give confidence to the Government. He would ask had those been the results of the Reform Bill. He for one was prepared to go beyond household suffrage, but now he was anxious that the House should take one step towards attaining the general object. household suffrage was quite consistent with the ancient Constitution, as had been admitted by every one who had written or spoken on the question. In introducing the Reform Bill into the House of Lords, Earl Grey quoted a passage from Locke upon Govern ment, in order to show that household suffrage was the ancient right of voting. He (Mr. H.) wished to show that the colleagues of the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) sanctioned the Bill, not as an in novation, but as a restoration to the ancient rights of the people. He said it was a return to the old system of scot and lot voters, with a limi tation to 101. The attempt had failed—the num ber of voters in the country were too small to give satisfaction to the people, or to give a lull, fair, and free representation of the people in that House. The Committee on the Cirencester case in 1793 re ported to the House that every male person of full age should be duly registered, and entitled to vote at elec tions. In another case, that of the Pontefract petition, it was held that any person who had resided six months in the borough previous to the election should be entitled to vote. That would show the House that he was not seeking for any innovation, but merely endeavouring to renew an an cient right. He regretted to say that the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had not on all occasions advocated the extension of the principle of the Reform Bill—at one time he had certainly been in favour of it, and another time had stopped short. On Feb. 6, when he (Mr. H.) had charged the Noble Lord with having forgot the original purpose of the Bill, and the Noble Lord had addressed the House as if early recollections had got the better of him. The Noble Lord was reputed to have said, " the in tention of the Reform Bill was to give a fair repre sentation of all parts of the country—they wished to give a preponderance to no party over the other, and he had more than once stated that he had taken a certain number of counties, and an equal number of manufacturing towns, to share in the representation." That was stated by the Noble Lord in answer to the charge made against him, that he had stated the intention of the Reform Bill was to give a preponderance to the landed interest. He (Mr. Hume) supported the Reform Bill with all its defects, because he believed the Government would carry out a greater extent of Reform, particularly when they had such lamentable proof of the evil working of the Bill, by which the fair voice of the electors could not be obtained. He was warranted in calling on the Noble Lord to carry out what he promised, as the Reform Bill had failed in securing the objects for which it had been introduced, and he was the more warranted in doing so, seeing the claims now put forward by the unrepresented mass of the country. The Noble Lord on a subsequent occasion stated that accord ing to the ancient constitution of the country no man ought to be taxed who had not consented by his repre sentative to the imposition of that tax.—(Hear.) The meaning of the Slatuti de 7'allagio non conceden4 was that no free man should be taxed without his consent through his Representatives—this had never been dis puted. Did the Noble Lord in making that statement mean that no free man should be taxed without being represented ? if so, he had no right to complain of the millions of unrepresented who now called upon him to ful fil his original promise ; he was bound in honour and justice to do so, as they had been disappointed in every promise that had been held out. In making this statement he had no desire to underval ue th e present c h ange, w hi c h, how ever, required the protection of secret voting to the pre sent electors. He would quote the opinion of Mr. Tan cred, who, in his wo r k on th e sys t em o f repre sentation in En g l an d, sa id t h at t h e or i g i na l system o f voting in England was regu l ate d b y t h e tenure o f proper t y without limit as to the value, every freeholder having a vote, however small his holding. This was also confirmed by the authority of Mr. Hallam. This was the ancient practice of the Constitution, and to make the voters in the boroughs and counties co-existent with the inhabitants paying scot and lot, and this practice he wished to revive by his present motion ; he would also go further, and extend the franchise to those who were occupying portions of houses, provided they had occupied them for a year, and had paid the rates, for which purpose he would make provision in his Bill. This would secure to them the in telligence and respectability of those upon whom this country depended—he meant the artisans and also the edu cated classes, many of whom were in lodgings. He hoped he should hare the support of the Hon. President of the Board of Controul, who had formerly advocated a much more extended Pystem of suffrage, because he considered it but fair that they should call for the assistance of those individuals who had made these principles the stepping stone to promotion. He hoped he still maintained those principles, and if so, that he would, if he could not give him his vote, at least state the circumstances which pre vented him from doing so. Having stated what their expec tations were, he would now show what had really taken place ; he was ready to show that the demand for household suffrage would give satisfaction to a large portionof the corn munity, it would be an intermediate step to education in the country, and he lookel forward to the time when so de sirable an object would be obtained. He had read that day a large number of petitions presented to that House, from which he felt warranted in stating that if they now came forward and granted that which he now asked, household suffrage on an extended scale, they would put down that demand which some thought too great, and which the Chartists were now endeavouring to enforce.— ( Hear, hear.) In order to see what grounds there were for the extension of the suffrage, he would direct the atten tion of the How:: to a statement that had been laid on its table, by which it would be seen what the representation was after the passing of the Reform Bill. By the census of 1831, it appeared that the population of England was 13,000,000, of that number there were 3,199,000 males of twenty years and upwards ; and the electors were 619,000, being one in every five. In Wales the population was 860,000 males, above 20 years of age 194,000, and the number of electors 37,000, being one in five. In Scotland the population was 2,300,000, the number of males above 217 years of age 549,000, and the number of electors 64,000, being one in every eight, while Ireland, having a population of 7,700,000, and 1,867,000 males above 21 years of age, the number of electors were 92,000, being one in 20; and since that period, it must be remembered, a considerable increase had taken place in the population The numbers had increased in 1835 and 1836, but still though the electors appeared large upon the returns -956,000, still he thought he might strike from that num ber 300,000, at all events 200,000, for those whose names appeared on the register twice. In London alone the actual constituency was not above 13,000, though upon the register it appeared to be 18,000—no less than 5,000 ap peared on the register twice. Was that then a full and fair representation of the people. Give them household suffrage, and there would be a considerable increase. In Manchester, in 1634, there were only 8,400 electors, while there were 12,700 inhabited houses. In Lambeth there were 154,613 inhabitants, 29,079 inhabited houses, 16,405 101. houses, but only 4,435 electors. Finsbury and the Tower Hamlets were in the same situation, Again, he found that Cheltenham and Salford, hav ing a constituency of about 3,054, returned only two Members of Parliament, while six Members were returned by boroughs having only 1,259 registered elec tors. No man could say that this was a fair state of re presentation. The same anomaly existed also in Ireland. Again, in the counties it was the same. In England there were five counties returning ten Members, with a registered constituency of only 16,296 ; while other five counties, re turning also only ten Members, had a constituency of 80,500 electors on the register. The same anomaly existed in the county representation of both Ireland and Scotland. Surely that was neither a full nor a fair system of repre sentation ? Ile had made an analysis of what the House was now, and he was sorry to say it did not appear to be any better than it was in 1793. He found that 331 Members, a majority of the House, was elected by 157,492 electors, or one-sixth of the registered electors. Was that a system with which the people of England ought to be contented ? They would not be Englishmen if they did not grumble when they had such good cause, and he hoped they would never be less.—( A laugh.) It was a difficult matter to say to what extent the constituencies would be augmented if household suffrage was granted, but taking the census of 1831, he found there were 3,000,000 inhabited houses, arid his calculation was that it would add about a million and a quarter. The people were earnest in their desire for an extension of the suf frage, and had considered the repeal of the Corn laws of no consequence as compared with this question. He thought they were wrong, but it proved how keenly they were alive to the grievance which pressed on them. When they saw the House upholding the few at the expense of the many it was natural that the unrepresented should feel it as a grievous burden. When they found that 72 per cent. of the taxation fell upon them, and that the rich paid but a trifling part of it, was it not natural that they were dissatisfied and called for a change ? In his opinion the Throne would never be more safe than when it was based upon the affections of a people, having a voice in the election of those who were to make the laws they were to obey. He was afraid that the peace of the country would be endangered if they did not take up this question in a spirit of conciliation to the great mass of the people. We had always legislated for the rights of property, which be thought an erroneous one. He would, therefore, move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the 2d of William IV., ch. 45 (tbe Re form Bill). Mr. T. DUNCOMBE seconded the motion. Lord JOAN RUSSELL said it did not appear to him that this question had very considerably excited the atten tention of the House, and could nor very much wonder at that when the proposition of the Hon. Member was not that we should endeavour to establish a system of repre sentation on which we might securely rest, but that we should take an intermediate step, to establish something which in the course of no long time was again to be changed. According to the statement of the Hon. Mem ber, one person in every five had now the power of voting, and he then proposed that one in every three should have that power, and if that was agreed to, a fresh motion would be afterwards made for a reform of the representation as he had amended it—a fresh application to the House to change so narrow and limited a constituency. But there was a demand from a great number of persons that the right of voting should be given to every male person of full age throughout the country. If that was the real state of the public feeling, the real question of the House to consider was, whether they would stand on the present re presentation, or adopt the proposition made by those calling themselves the advocates of the People's Charter. The lion. Member said that gentlemen might attempt to put off the right of voting ; but that the people must finally obtain it ; but if any one was putting it off, it was the Hon. Member himself in making such a proposition as the pre sent. There might be grounds for maintaining the present system, but there was nothing more likely to cause irrita tion than to propose household suffrage, and tell the people that they were not fit for universal suffrage. He would now go through some of the points on which the Hon. Member had founded his proposition. The Hon. Member had stated various reasons for extending the Re form Bill, by showing that there was a very extensive. basis for our representation. He then went on to the ques tion of equality. If this was an evil it was one which was apparent on the very face of the Reform Bill. When 16 boroughs were annihilated of course there still remained many places represented which contained from 4,000 to 5,000 inhabitants. But the Hon. Member said when the Reform Bill was introduced that it exceeded his utmost expecta tions, and would meet the general approbation of the country ; and now, because he had found out what appeared on the face of the Bill, he was anxious to make the charges. The Hon. Member's plan, however, would give no satisfaction to those who were the most anxious for a change, and he (Lord J. Russell) did not think that any plan based on mere numbers would give general satisfaction. The Hon. Gentleman's plan was totally incomplete. If-he proposed household suffrage in boroughs he would introduce a great deal of bribery; and if he proposed to divide it into districts a great change would be required in the system. He had only one re mark to make, and that was as to the amount of taxation and burdens under which the country laboured. The greater part of those burdens were necessary, for the pur pose of paying the debt of the country. If they had a Parliament elected by Universal Suffrage, one of the first proceedings would be to relieve themselves from the legal burdens which now existed. He (Lord J. Russell) always said, when bringing forward the question of Reform, that he did not wish to bring it forward as a question of distress or prosperity, but he always believed that there would arrive a day when numbers would say they were disappointed by the Reform Bill, and would seek further changes. If after establishing a new system of representation by a great struggle, they went on to change the system, it would be the means of shaking the confidence the people now had in the institutions of the country. He should give his direct negative to the proposition of the Hon. Member as he should to any proposition f oun ded on a similar basis. Mr. GROTE said, in spite of the want of interest and inattention to which the Noble Lord had alluded, lie must make a few remarks on the present subject. He thought the Honourable Member for Kilkenny had done great service in bringing forward the statements which he had done; and he would ask the Noble Lord whether such statements were likely to raise the present system in the estimation of the public. The topics urged by the Noble Lord were those adopted by the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, when the Reform Bill was brought forward, and if the Noble Lord had been then in his present state of mind, he must have gone out against the Reform Bill.—( Hear, and a laugh.) If the Noble Lord was ready to take his 'stand on the doctrine of finality, it ought to be applied to all subjects, and then they might close their doors against all discussion.—( Hear, hear.) What argument had the Noble Lord adduced to show that the persons proposed by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny were not worthy to exercise the franchise ? If there was no good ground against them, they had a right to complain of not having been included in the Reform Bill. He (Mr. G.) respected the Reform Bill, for the rights which it conferred, but he did not respect it for the the rights which it withheld.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Kilkenny alluded to many of the defects of the Reform Bill, which the Noble Lord did not dispute. If the Noble Lord admitted defects, was that not a good reason for re-modelling the Bill?—( Hear, hear.) He could have wished the Noble Lord to have entered more fully into the question of extending the franchise to householders. It surely was desirable that the electoral body should coin cide as nearly as possible with the entire people, and the franchise ought not to be given to one man and withheld from another merely from caprice. The great body of householders under 101. were men who discharged the obligations of private life with as much fidelity as others, and instead of having an interest in defrauding the public creditor, a great portion of them would be the greatest sufferers by such a step, and be felt confident that no such proposition would meet with approbation or acceptance amongst them.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to their want of intelligence, there was no class of persons who took so much pains to cultivate their minds as the industrious classes, and he could see no ground for pronouncing a 101. householder to be more worthy of the elective franchise than an occupier of 6/. He thought it would be becoming in the Noble Lord to expunge these anomalies, and not let them be enduring as the solar system.—( Hear.) He would not enter into the question of universal suffrage, to which the Noble Lord had alluded, because it did not belong to the present subject. He desired to reason this merely as a proposition to admit householders under IN., as no good reason could be offered why they should not be admitted, and nnder this conviction he supported the motion of his Hon. Friend. Mr. D'l SRA ELI thought that the Honourable Member in his speech had confounded the House of Commons with the people of England. The House of Commons was not the House of the People, and;never was. —( Hear, hear, hear.) If the House of Commons was the House of the People there would be no use in having another branch of the Legislature.—( Hear, hear.) Th e Honourable Member for, Kilkenny when he talked of the people, referred to the electors of Kilkenny, and the Hon. Member for the City of London, when h e spo k e of the people, thought of his constituents.—( Hear, hear. ) The Hon. Member for Kilkenny had talked of representation and taxation going hand in hand.—( Hear, hear.) Where did he find that maxim laid down ? Did he find it in EVENING EDITION._ Magna Charta or the Bill of Rights ?—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had no defined idea of what represen tation meant. The principle of representation did not necessarily include election; there might be representa tion without election, as well as election without repre sentation.—( Hear, bear.) The Church of England was represented in the House of Lords by the Bishops, but no one would say that the Bishops were elected ? ( Hear, hesr. ) In his ( Mr. D'lsraeli's) opinion. the Honourable Member for Kilkenny, was as ignorant of taxation, as he was of representation.—( Laughter). He could not find out what was the foundation on wh►ch the Hon. Meinber based his motion.—( Hear, hear). Many of the arguments that had been put forth by the Hon. Mem ber for London, were extremely ingenious, hut they had no sound basis. Perhaps Hon. Members would wish to follow the example of Prussia (Great cheering) but if they did so, they would have Normal Schoolmen fur Legislators.—( Cheers). All these things might be very well, but they were none of them within the English Constitution ; and the question for the House was, whether or not they should main tain the English Constitution. When they talked of the House of Commons being the House of the People, they were at tacking the English Constitution.—(Laughter, and cries of " Hear, hear.") He was not anxious to enter into any of the provisions of the Reform Bill, but when he found Hon. Gentlemen taking their positions against the English Con stitution, he could not remain silent. Mr. WARD said that the speech of the Hon. Mem ber for Maidstone contained two truisms—first, that the House of Commons was not the House of the people— ( Cheering)—and secondly, election and representation were not synonymous.—( Continued cheering.) On that ground it was that the Hon. Member for Kilkenny had brought forward his motion. He regretted that the motion should have been submitted to so thin a House, because he felt convinced that had the Hon. Member adhered only to the first part of the motion, there would have been a much fuller House. Many Members would have been prepared to have gone along with him in that, but they could not accede to the species of household suffrage which he had pointed out. For himself, he (Mr. Ward) would go along with the Han. Member for Kilkenny, and support him in a Bill to amend the representation of the people. He would go farther—he would support him in a Bill for the introduc tion of household suffrage; but he could not go to the ex tent which the Hon. Member had now proposed. The Noble Lord, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had taken the same ground that he had done for the last two years, that of adhering to the finality of the Reform Bill, in short he had created a new school of politicians, who were called finality men. The object of the Reform Bill was to put an end to the packed jnries that had hitherto sat in that House, and it was to that jury, created by the Reform Bill, that the lion. Member for Kilkenny now appealed, for the purpose of seeing whether the juries in that House could not be further improved. The Reform Bill; and he was sorry to say it, was not the Reform Bill that was introduced into that House by the Noble Lord—it was a Bill muti lated in its most essential parts—it was a Bill into which inconsistencies had been grafted by the oppo nents of the Noble Lord ; yet such a Bill, they were told by the Noble Lord, was to be considered final.—( Hear, hear.) It was against that principle the Hon. Member for Kilkenny now called upon them to give their vote. The franchise, as it at present existed, was too nar row. It was necessary, for the preservation of the in stitutions of the country, that it should be extended.— ( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord alluded to the universal suffrage question. With respect to that, he must say the worst spirit was going abroad—hatred and envy were breaking out among every class, because they consi dered they were shut out from the representation.—( Hear, hear.) He was afraid that it would be very difficult to control the spirit that was going abroad, unless it was done by carrying some motion like that which had been made by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny. Hon. Members might laugh at the ideas of physical force—he knew it might be put down, but he could not look forward without great apprehension to the evils that might be inflicted by attempts of that kind.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He trusted that the motion of his Honourable Friend would receive that consideration to which it was entitled on the part of the House, and if that time was not now come, he believed that it shortly would do so, when the subject would be forced upon the consideration of the legislature. Mr. P. HO WARD thought the Reform Bill ought to be maintained in all its legal principles, though it might be altered in its details—in his opinion the Reform Bill had _upon the whole been successful.—( Cries of " Oh.") Lord J. RUSSELL said a few words in explanation. Colonel SIBTHO RP had no desire t• get her Ma jesty's Ministers out of the scrape into which they bad fallen.—(Great laughter.) But the proposition of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny was so undefined and opened a door so wide, that he had made up his mind not to vote on the question at all.—(Laughter.) Having said thus much, be would leave it to the Whigs and Radicals to do what they liked with the measure.—(Laughter.) The Gallant Member then left the House. Mr. O'CONNE LL said that an air of ridicule had been thrown by several Hon. Members upon the present subject. Although it might be a subject that some Hon. Members chose to treat in that way, it was not one that would be so treated by the people. What was the state of the country before the passing of the Reform Bill ? Why seats in that House were private property, and were sold exactly in the same manner as cattle in the stalls of Smithfield. The intention of the Reform Bill was, to alter the power of legislating by nomination. The people abroad felt that there was a master class who bad votes, and a slave class that had none.—(Great c heering.) They excluded the artizan, whose property consisted of his strength and vigour, and admitted those into the -House who bad not so great a right to be admitted as those they excluded. If Members opposite did not get up cries upon religious subjects, and did not go into the boroughs with then• purses well filled, would they have their benches as they now were.—(Hear, hear.) This state of things could not last ; and if the wild ravings of the Chartists had not fortified them in their abuses—if they had not pro claimed principles which every one must abhor—if they had not threatened them with physical force,instead of ap pealing to the common sense of the country—they had not become exclutionists like some persons in that House, there would have been a sober steady voice of the English people declaring that the existing plan of representation was formed on a ludicrous basis.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He had made these observations because he had felt it to be his duty to protest against the mode in which this debate had been conducted, and on behalf of the people Of England, Ireland and Scotland to call for an extension of the suffrage.__( Hear, hear.) , Mr. ANDREW WHITE said that he had lately pre sented a petition from Sunderland in favour of household suffrage, and he cordially supported the motion of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny. General JOHNSON said that he had many years ago stood up in that House in favour of universal suffrage, and he begged to state that he had not changed his opinions.— (Hear, hear.) He should therefore give his vote in favour of the motion. Mr. T. ATT WO OD said that although he was perfectly' certain the great mass of the people of England did not entertain those unjust and evil thoughts which a few mis guided:persons did, yet he believed they were determined to accomplish a great change in that House, and h e (Mr. Attwood) would stand by them, but- they would pot resort to any illegal measures.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was true that much injury had been done to the cause of Reform and good government by the improper lan guage that had been made use of. That language bad alarmed the timid, and bad offended the prudent, the wise, and the patriotic, but it had not discouraged the bold, the generous, and the brave.--( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Reform Bill could not be a finality Bill, and h a d it not been for the intemperate language that had been used the demand for universal suffrage would have been more general than it now was.—( Hear, hear.) As an honest man, he must confess that if called upon to vote for the abolition of the Reform Bill altogether, and to return to the old system of rotten boroughs, or to go on as they had recently done with the present House of Commons, he would rather vote for the former; becauce he knew of ee generous or manly feeling that had been entertained to the great mass of the people of England.--( Hear, hear.) The present House might represent the Aristocracy, it might represent the landowners, but it no more represented the working classes nr the Commons of England than it re presented the Commons of China.—( Hear, hear, an d laughter.) Mr. HUME replied. He differed from his Hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, that the old boroughmonger; ing system was to be preferred to the existing system 0 ; representation, because that House had passed some good measures, and all he wanted was that they should g o op. until every abuse was swept away. He wished that a ll Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side had followed 01! example of the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln, an had quitted the House.—( Laughter.) Those on his (M r. Hume's) side of the House could have determined th e , question very well between themselves.—(Renewe e laughter.) Stangers were then ordered to withdraw, nd the Hoes ° divided.. The numbers were— Ayes Noes Majority against Mr. Hume's Motion —35 e Mr. FRENCH then rose to move an humble address presented to her Majesty, that her Majesty would y ; f graciously pleased to direct measures to be taken ' o f securing to every province in Ireland the advantage s b , railroad communication. The Honourable Member 0 „ /. served that, since the year 1817, the sum of 6,590,00.v0i had been voted by that House for public works, of 0 111 00 sums na less then 6,250,000/. had been expende d l ie public works in England, and only 250,0001. on I' 0 , works in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Want of internal Otbo munication was said to be one of the great causes of tr y miseries of Ireland, and y e t th ree -f ourt h s o f t h a t 6 ) 1111 were to be excluded from the benefit of railroads. be An HON. MEMBER here moved that the 0 005- but counted, and strang e rs were or d ere d to w i t hdraw , there being more than forty Members present, t act' Mr. FRENCH resumed—He quoted several el-rbere from the Report of th e Commissioners to show tha t t i o l, were large tracts o f country in Ireland , almost 05e ti t if from the want of th e means of communication, and !'"hoiate railroads were established it was impossible to eA' c a lancl , what the trad e o f t h ose very tracts m i ght b e. In ' l3l ; c ere railroads were made by private capital. because tlicYabso. considered as safe speLlations, but in Ireland it was ~„ the lutely necessary that that spirit should be fostered 'Jr o t he national resources. Let them look at France, %/ hc oc ting national funds had been used for the purpose of conrosia, the Mediterranean with the ocean. Look at „j a r'. L',o7where St. P eters b urg was connec t e d w ith the 0,-- Look at Holland and every nation in the civilised cans of . they had all made great exertions to increase the 'waited transport from one place to another. Had th e _Y ola tions , till private capital had been invested in such sr' p ct ers- Holland would yet have been a swamp and burg an inland town in place of an Imperi al cow, fact railroads were at the present day as nece ssary r hea r. ; men roads were in the infancy of society.—( Ele a to he He moved that an humble address be preseuteracioosiy Majesty, praying that her Majesty will b pleased to tl.rect measures to be taken forescgcuriog to , '~ f y~ ~~ ,