The Sun. — London, England, 1821-07-03 00:00:00

minishing the amount of salaries since 1797; and praying that his Majesty would direct every possible saving to be made in all the departments of the State. Earl G ROSVENOR said, he had no hesitation in giving the preference to the Address of his Noble Friend (Lord Darnley). This was not the first time their Lordships had heard the Noble Earl opposite express himself favourable to economy— he had often heard him repeat verbatim what he ~had' stated' to-night. The Yenr before last s when he . (Earl Grosvenor) had the honour to submit a propoSition to the House for the reduction of our military est a bli s h ments, t h e N o bl e E ar l h a d ex- : pressed himself in a similar manner, but said that ...peculiar circumstances rendered their continua ** tien,necessary. We were now in the seventh lear.'of peace, and now for the first time we • were told that we might look forward to some retrenchment. He was surprised the Noble Varl Was not disposed to meet his Noble Friend •oti the- question of the army, navy, or ordnance. It was the constant practice of that Noble When the distresses of the country were mentioned, to draw a comparison between the State of America, Poland, and others, but he fiat] :forgotten to look to France, Indeed he. had - not gone the length of saying' that France was in thiS distreised state; and what was the iiiferenCe to'•be drawn from this ? Why, that we, the conquering country, would wish to change condition with_ France. the conquered country.—But it by no means followed that be cause America and Poland .were distressed, that therefore we should take no steps to remove our burdens. We should leave no means untried to reduce our expenditure, we should become a nation of parsimony and not of prodigality. The Noble Lord then entered into the state of the National Debt. He could by no means agree lVith the Noble Lord opposite that a diminution, such as be had described, had taken place; in stead- of that, he thought we had increased our debt 107 millions. With respect to Sinking Funds, he was by no means opposed to them, provided a bona fide excess had appeared above our expenditure. With respect to the approach ing ceremony which had been alluded to, he 'thought it quite unn e c essar y. They had all _ taken the oaths of allegiance to his Majesty. It could answer no purpose; it was a most unne cessary expence; but still more, he thought it a most injudicious one, and lie thought it was a most injudicious advice for the servants of the Crown .to recommend this ceremony under the present circumstances, No matter what the law of the case might be—supposing it to be quite clear on the subject—supposing that her Majesty had tio right to participate in the ceremony, still ; as a matter of grace and favour, it was a most injudicious advice to exclude her. And let them not think the law quite clear, nor, depend too much upon the only precedent, that of Henry VII., because it was at that time appre hended that the Marriage of Henry to his Queen, Elizabeth, had taken place before the Corona tion, whereas it did not occur until after the ceremony. He thought the Coronation .could only be agreeable, inasmuch as it accorded with the wishes of the people ; and unless it was unaccompanied by any alloy—unless churchmen could view it with Christian benevolence and dis interested zeal, and historians record it in terms of high eloquence—unless the Poet Laureat could describe it in the enthusiastic strains of :national feeling, and not in the language of ser vile flattery—unless he could paint it in the glowing colourS of a national festivity, " in thoughts that breathe and words that burn," it never should take place. But what he deplored most of all was a report that had gone abroad that the ceremony was to be attended by the military. He could not conceive a greater insult to the Sovereign than to exclude his subjects from the splendid spectacle by files of troops. It was not thrOugh soldiers, but through his subjerts, that his Majesty 'should proceed to have the Crown - 'placed on his head at the altar of his God. If it . were necessary for public security that soldiers should adorn thiS splendid cere mony; let them 'be so arranged as not to exclude the people from the sight of their Sovereign. tOrd MELVILLE did not Mean to follow the various topics which had just been introduced to their Lordships'_ attention, because nine-tenths of them had no allusion whatever to the motion of the Noble Earl. The only topic which was properly before the House, was that of the Public Expenditure, which, it was contended; might be diminished, under several heads of the present Estimates. It was admitted, and it could not be denied, that 'considerable diminu 'Cons had been made in . the expences of the cur rent year, and,, in . his opinion; those reductions were carried as far a s was compatible with the safety of the State. • There was one head u p on which the necess ity of further reduction had been insisted on + to which he would shortly ad vert. It related to the .extent of naval force, which this country ought to maintain in time of peace.. Eighty-four ships of the line were stat ed to be a sufficient force, for the pres en t c i r . ria cutances in which we were situated. NoW from that proposition he must altogether 'dissent.. Of such a force as that, little more than 40 sail could be depended upon as durable ships. He was sorryl6 say, that from negligence and other unavoidable circumstances in the- late war, a gre4.portion of Our 'vessels were not so durable as to warrant a reduction to the extent proposed. He was not prepared . to say that further reduc tions might not be made to a certain extent. lie was of opinion that after arriving at a state of repose, which he hoped was riot far distant, the naval expenditure of the country could with safety be very considerably reduced: They had done something this year, and iu the next he had no doubt they should do more. What that would be he could not then say, but that it would be something considerable' he could assure their Lordships with the greatest confidence. After a few remarks upon the nature of the works at Sheerness, and the clothing used for the navy his Lordship concluded by observing that he should not trespass farther upon•the time of the ilotisethe more especially because the larger por tion of tvhat had fallen from the Noble Earl who spokel.a.stotas totally, irrelevant to the. uestion.; The Earl of CAMNARVON preferred the Address proposed . by his Noble Friend (Lord Darnley.) In that House Ministers were their own panegy rists, but in the other House they got a friend to praise them. The reason-of this was, proba bly, that on a former occasion the task had been intrusted to a Noble Lord, who introduced into the Address some expressions not very pleasing to Ministers, and therefore they thought it more safe not to intrust it out of their own hands again. It was much to be lamented that at a period when one would have thought the country had arrived at the maximum of distress, that now we were beginning with a fresh evil : he alluded to the change of the currency. The Noble Lord then dwelt at some length upon the evils that had al ready and were likely to result,. and said if we did not . retrace our steps, or make a re duction in the taxes equal to the evil created, the distresses of the country would be increased tenfold. If we looked to the extent of the agri cultural distress, what must we expect but a de graded and impoverished aristocracy? He did not apply that term to their Lordships only, but to the great landed proprietors, who, leagued toge ther in one indissoluble league, had raised the country to its greatness ; and let the monied in terest rise as it might, they were citizens of the world, and it was to the hereditary possessors of the soil we must look_ for the support of the throne and the country. Lord CALTIIORPE could not help thinking that, after the candid and satisfactory manner in which the question had been met by the Noble Earl at the Head', of • the Treasury, his Noble Friend must feel anti his object had been ob tained, and that consequently he would not press his motion to a division. Although his Noble Friend might not cordially agree to all the language of the amended Address, Yet did hope that in effect he would be - diSposed to give it his assent. For himself, he had great satisfaction in support ing the Add ress proposed to be substituted by the Noble Earl. Earl DARNLEY briefly replied, and expressed his intention not to press the original motion. The amended Address was then agreed to. '. IRISH COURT OF EQUITY REGULATION BILL. Lord SIDIVIOUTII moved that the Committee upon the above Bill be postponed to that day three months.—After a few words from the Loki) CHANCELLOR and Lord KING, the motion was agreed to.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. At half-past three o'clock the Speaker was summoned to the House of Lords. On his return .he informed the House that the Royal Assent had been given by Commission to a number of Bills, for which see our Report in the proceedings of the Upper House. Mr. HA RBORD presented a petition from the inhabitants of several Parishes in Samersetshire, praying for a revision of the Criminal Code.—Ordered to be printed. The Bankruptcy Court Bill went through a Committee, the Report of which was received and agreed to. The Bill was or dered to be read a third time to-morrow. Mr. ARBUTHNOT presented a General Account of the Increase of the Salaries of Public Officers since the year 1793. Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. GRATTAN presented a petition from several Share_ hold rs of the late Theatre in Crow-street, Dublin, praying for an inquiry into the circumstances which had occasioned a refusal to renew the patent to Frederick Jones, &a._Ordered to lie on the table. The Captured Slaves Bill was read a third time and passed. On the motion of Mr. CLIVE, an humble Address was ordered to be. presented to his Majesty, praying that h e would be graciously pl ease d t o order that there be laid before the House a Copy . of the Ninth Report of the Commission appointld to inquire into the Salaries of the Judges, &c. in 'Scotland. SLAVE TRADE. Sir J. MACKINTOSH wished to ask one question of the Noble Lord. When in that House it was urged upon the Noble Lord that some effectual remonstrance ought to be made to the 'Ministers of France, relative to the continuance of .the African Slave Trade by certain of her subject.s; and to the de , gree of countenance which such individuals received, from the • want of some effective interposition on the part of the French • Government, with a view to put an end to their practices ; the Noble Lord intitnatNl that there was in the Legislative Body of that Kiqgclom a disposition which was favourable to the con tinuance of this trade, and insinuated that it was upon this ac count that no more vigorous measures had been adopted by that Government to repress the traffic notoriously carried on upon certain parts of the coast of Africa under the French flag. It now, however, appeared, that the Ch am b er o f D eput i es i tself had complained of the existence of this evil ; it seemed that a complaint had been made there, and that it had been most warmly praised upon the attention of the French Minister. Now these two statements, that of the Noble Lord on a former night, and this of the last week's French intelligence being com pletely opposite to each other, he (Sir J. Mackintosh) wished to ask the. Noble Lord whether his information had proceeded wool any written document ? and if it had, whether the 'Noble Lord would have any objection to have it laid before Parliament ? The Marluis of LONDONDERRY said, the source to which the hon. and Learned Gentleman was alluding had rather confirmed his (Lord Londonderry's) statement of a former evening. It would appear, from what the French Mi nister of Marine stated, that there was this kind of feeling .in the French Legislature. It had happened, in point of fact, that very recently i'.iere had been discussions upon the subject of the Slave Trade in both of the Chambers. That which had taken place in the Chamber of Deputies might serve to show the difficulties which ware likely to occur in any future consi deration of the same subject in that chamber. Unfortunately, it was too true that there was at this moment a very strong colo nial spirit, both in the Chamber of Peers and the Chamber of Deputies, which looked with very little favour at any great and ' benevolent law, like that—which abolished the traffic in slaves, He (Lord Londonderry) had been very glad to find that the Minister of Marine on this occasion spoke in an extremely pro per manner, both with respect to the principle upon which po licy and humanity demanded - such an abolition, and on the obligation., of preserving.the public faith, pledged by so many treaties, entire. With r es p ec t to laying the information before the Hotise, oil which he (Lord' Londonderry) had felt war ranted to make the observation in question, he felt assured that he had given very faithfully and undisguisedly the substance of it to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ; and not being pre pared tp state whether he should or shouli hot be inclined to accede to a motion for the production of the original informa tion, he trusted that the Hon- and Learned .Gentleman would be satisfied with this explanation of the matter. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH observed, that all the world knew that the mode of publishing the discussions which took Place in the Chambers of the. Parliament in France was such as to render the published account of them a much more authentic document than it wits elsewhere,.by reason of the different way in which similar discussions were elsewhere allowed. to make their appearance. He had alluded to that account, therefore, in the present instance with some degree of confidence. The Noble Marquis himself did not seem to cast the slightest im putation on either chamber of, a disposition to be unf r i en dly t o such a measure a s th a t which he had been urged to recommend to the French Minister. He merely said that he believed the Minister was employed in preparing such a Bill as might.-ac complish the object of repressing .the abuse; but that it was not yet quite prepared. He (Sir J. Mackintosh) did not wish to press the matter on the House., but he conceived that such a paper might have 'explained 'so extraordinary a contradiction between the two statements. The'Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that the Minister of Marine had hitherto not been able to obtain any more re dress than he himself bad been. WESTMINSTER ABBEY. Dr. PHILLIMORE wished . to state a few facts relative to the Dean of Westminster (by whom, indeed, he - had been re quested to do so), in order to do away with a very erroneous impression, which,,had been made upon the public Mind, with respect to that reverend individual and the chapter', as to some imputed neglect of. theirs in the care of Westminster-abbey. The facts which hi was desired to state were four ; Lst, That during the last 20 years a sum of 39,0001. h a d b een ex p en d e d upeni , the rep a i rs.o f the Abbey-church : 2dly, That any profits arising from the coronation wottld not be available to sitc4 put ! poses, because the application of tlvAtt had always been, by custom and usage, different : 3dly, That such profits, however, much they had been exaggerated, would not amount to 3,09a1. in the whole : and 4thly, That it was found very difficult to prevent the mutilation of the tombs, and particularly so to pre-. serve them clean, and-in order, amidst the smoke and dust of London. The moment the arrangements for the ensuing corn= nation should be removed, it was intended to bestow coosiderSa hle attention to these objects. Sir CHARLES LONG thou g ht it proper to explain, th a t many years ago, he was on a Committee appointed to in quire into the state of Henry the Seventh's Chapel. That Com mittee having inspected a variety of documents, and believing the Chapel to have been the ancient ! burial-place of the Kings of England, considered that it ought to be repaired at the public expense. As to the monuments in the other part of the Abbey it had certainly been to him, and doubtless to others, matter of extreme surprise and mortification to find them defaced and in jured as they. were. But when he had taken notice of this cirs cumstance in the House, he meant to cast no reflection upon the Dean and Chapter of Westminster. He had the honour of their acquaintance, and, undoubtedly, men more truly respectable he did not know. He was very glad that the public attention had been called to this matter notwithstanding. THE DUKE OF CLARENCE, IIER MAJESTY, AND THE CORONATION. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY moved, that the Or der of the Day for, - reading the Duke of Clarence's Annuity Bill a third time, be read.- Mr. BERNAL warmly opposed' the grant of what were called the Arrears, and declared, that there had not been a single satisfactory reason alleged for their payment. Confident as he was that the country looked at the subject in the same point of view, he would move an A men d men t t o substitute 1821 for 1818 , as the period at which the 'operation of the An nuity should commence. • The SPEAKER observed, that the Bill must be read a third time before the Amendment proposed by the Honourable Gen tleman could be received.' • The Order of the Day was then read.• On the motion that the Bill he read a third time, Mr. CREEVEY rose, not to say any thing more respecting his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence's character, or -de portment, but to call the attention of the House, and still more Of the public, to the time at which the subject was brought be= fore Parliament. When a motion for Repealing the Malt Tax was carried in that House, the number of Members present be ing 274, the Noble Marquess declared, that the House was too thin finally to determine on so important a subject ; he advised Hon. Gentlemen not " to halloo before they were out of the wood," and in the end, he actually did convert the majority of 78 for a Repeal of the Tax into a majority of fRI for its continu ance. 'When a question was carried vitally important and be neficial to the people, the Noble Marquess thought 274 Mem bers constituted too thin a House. Again, when the Honour able Member for Cumberland succeeded in inducing a House of 254 Members to agree to a repeal of the Agricultural Horse Tax, the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that it was too small a House, and that he would try his hand again ; a resolution, how ever , f rom w hi c h h e h a d subsequently- been diverted. A House of 274, or of 2-15 Members, was too small to discuss 'a subject in which the interests of the people were at stake; but when the proposition was for the benefit of the Crown, or any of its MembeN, the Noble Marquess had no ob jection to a House anal as that which he (Mr. Creevey) was then addressing—a House, the majority of which was com posed of placemen. If ever there was .an unanswerable case in favour of any proposition, the present state of the House furnished such a case in favour of the proposition of his Honourable -friend the Member for Shrewsbury, to exclude placemen and pensioners from seats - in Parliament. At the late period- of the Session, placemen, always formidable, became still more so. They were as numerous in the noose as ever, while other Honourable Members, fatigued with the laborious duties which they had so loog continued to perform, were gone out of town. Then came the Noble Marquess and his Right Hon. Colleagues, and availed themselves of so advantageous a posi tion of circumstances to get money froth the House for someone branch of the RoYal Family. It was highly objectionable to bring forward such a - proposition when it must b e d ec id e d b y such a House as that w hi c h he (Mr. Creevey) was addressing; and for that, among other reasons, he should certainly urge his oppoSition to the Bill - to a division, in order that the public might see who the Members were by whom their money was. thus prodigally voted away.. Mr. BECHER declared, that since he had had th e h onour o f a scat in that House, he had never heard a proposition which ap peared to him to be so extraordinary, so unprincipled, and so extravagant, as the proposition to pay what were called the Ar rears of the Duke of Clarence's Annuity. It teas a proposition which, If carried, would give those who were always ready to find fault with the constitution of that House, just ground for censure, Surely thelioiNe of 'Commons were entitled to more ceremonious treatment, than to have their Grant rejected at one moment, and accepted at another, when the increased value of the currency, or any other cause, might induce the change of determination. It was hard that the Representatives of ,the People were to be . bound by their first offer, but that the indivi dual- in whose favour that offer was made was not to be bound by his refusal. To acquiescein'such a proposition, would be to show that the House was really indifferent about the economy of which so much had been said, and that they were not dis posed to put the distresses and reproaches of the people in com petition with the wants of His Royal Highness the Duke of Cla rence, and the wishes of, his Majesty's Ministers. If, three years ago, when this Grant was refused, it had been 'de clared by any one,' that, at a subsequent time; Ministers would propose not only to renew the Grant, but to pay the arrears of the intervening_ period, he wquld have been called a vile calum niator. Any unjust imputation on their generosity the House might answer by declaring that what they had offered three years ago, they had Since spent ; fog every body knew- that the 13,0001. must be borrowed in order to be paid. U n d ou b te dl y, therefore, he should vo t e against the payment of any arrears; but he confessed that the prospective grant of 8,0001. a year, seemed to him to rest on different grounds. He was as ready as any man to allow any Member of the Royal Family what ever was necessary for the niaintenance of his dignity, and of the credit of the country. Ile had no objection therefore to the grant of 6,0091. a year. • although when he recollected that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen (with whom he concurred in think ing that the Royal Brothers ought to be placed on the same le_ vel), had shown that all that was necessary for that purpose was an allowance of 3,5001. to the Duke of Clarence, he should vote, unless the Hon. Member were proved to be erroneous in his statement, even against the grant of 6,0001. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW regretted that the Hon. Gentleman. who had just spoken, had not been in his place on Saturday evening. He would then have heard an Hon. Gentleman, in no way connected with Ministers (the Hon. Member for East Looe) state circumstances which showed the true character of the , proceedings of his Roy a l Hi g h ness . Th e Hon. Meniher E for ast Looc had stated, that his Royal Highness at the period of the Original grain. felt that he could live abroad without it ; but that - public and domestic circumstances, which it was un necessary to explain, had rendered it imperative on his Royal Highness to return. In his (Mr. Serjeant Onslow's) opinion, the payment of the arrears to his Royal highness was simply in the nature of an outfit. AIr.,BECIUR explained. Mr. MONCK declared that he felt himself bound to oppose the grant, declaring that after all that he had heard he was per.. suaded there.was nee case.made out for its justification. In the present situation of the country the simple consideration for the House was whether strict necessity or strict justice required such an expenditure, -It was evident that the only way in which his Majesty's , Ministers could be rendered economical was by lopping off" some of the taxes, and thereby depriving them: of the means of being otherwise. • .Lord A. HAMILTON intimated his intention of moving a Resolution, that it might appear on the - Journals in the shape of a Protest, against the impropriety, without an immediate Message from the Crown, of voting..a Parliamentary grant like the present on a Message sent three Parliaments ago, and under another reign. Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that his opinion on the ques tion.of the arrears to his Royal Highness was well known. There was no evident distinction between that question and the que4tion of the prospective grant of 6,0001. a year. In conse quence of what had passed on a recent occasion, when he was not present, with respect to the approaching solemnity of the Coronation, he felt it- right to state the reasons of the delay which bad been iniptited to her Majesty, or to the Law Officers of her Majesty, in asserting_ her Majesty's claim to b e i nc l u d e d in' that ceremony. In the first place, thadelay in question had by no means . been to the extent st a t e d by the Noble Marq u e ss . He had been told that the Noble Marquess said there had been 1 two months delay. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY-About two months. Mr. Buriucifeee e —Well, about two months. If it had been a week more or less, he would not have quarrelled with the Noble Marquess on.the subject ; . but there was a great dif ference between two months and one month. Ale would now state precisely what had been the extent of the delay. It was on the 21st. of May that the Noble Marquess delivered his opi nion in the House on the subject of the Coronation, which subject had never before that period been mentioned. An Honourable Friend of his had put a question to the Right Ilonoura.hle the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the occasion of a discussion respecting the Ordnance Estimates. To the part of that question which respected the Coronation, the Right Ifenourable Gentleman made no answer. The question did not refer 'to- any claim on her Majesty's part to be crowned, but merely to ascertain if provision had been made to enable her . Majesty to attend on that occasion: His . Honourable Friend laboured under a mistake if he supposed that any express per mission to attend WM necessary ; because, of course, her Ma jesty had the same right as that enjoyed by any of his Majesty's subjects, to attend as a spectator of the ceremony. The question however was taken up by the Noble Marquess as if it related to a right claimed by her Majesty to be crowned herself; and the Noble Marquess thereupon declared that it was clearly his opinion that an Act of the Crown was requisite to enable her Majesty to be so,crowned—for that although she was Queei42Nsort, he wasselaarly of opinion e that both in usage and 'in law, it:Tested with e sWKingtto decide . ',whether she should Lie crowned or no/. •• Th e .N o bl e M arquess added, that he might as well then say, that neither he nor his colleagues were prepared to advise such an act of the Crown. - On this he (Mr. Brougham) immediately protested against the Noble Marquess' s doctrine, doctrine, and desired to be un d ers t oo d that he by no means ad mitted that her Majesty had no right to be crowned without such an Act. This he had said lest his silence should be interpreted into an assent to the Noble Marquess's proposition. That was all that occurred on • the 21st of May. Was it a necessary con sequence, either that the solemnity of the Coronation should take place, or that the Noble Marquess's opinion should be act ed upon, and her Majesty be excluded from a participation in the ceremony ? It had been justly observed by his Hon. • and Learned Friend on a recent occasion, that her Majesty's law advisers were not . placed in the same situation with re ference to - her Majesty, as his Majesty's responsible advisers were with reference to the King. It was not for them to initiate any proceeding. They were to receive the orders of her Majesty, and not to suggest any course of proceeding. But even if it were otherwise, it . would have been their duty to wait until the Coronation should be actually pro claimed. Nay more, it would have been their duty to act un der the recollection ' that although a proclamation w a s iss ue d on the' th of May, 1820, declaring that the Coronation should take place on the Ist of August,in that year; another proclama tion was issued in July, patting the Coronation off. Lt was• of course natural that her Majesty and her Majesty's Law Officers should wait until they saw a fresh proclamation, fixing the time for the Coronation. That proclamation was dated on Saturday the 9th of June. It did not appear in The Gazette until Tuesday the 12th of J u n e . Now, the memorial to th e king in Council, in which her Majesty claimed her right •to be crowned, was prepared, and wen t oft from his (Mr. Biongham's) chambers on the 23:1 of June, so that the delay which had taken place, and of which the Noble Marquess had complained, was exactly eleven days. When it was considered that in those eleven days it had been necessary for him to go through - all the documents con nected with the subject, and to make up his mind as to the advice which he should give her Maje Sty, under circumstances of such extraordinary - importance, he certainly did not think that any. great blame would be imputed to him for the delay. He might also mention the accidental and unfortunate circum stance of the extreme indisposition of his Hon. and Learned Friend, who about that period had been confined to his, bed for upwards of a fortnight. Some impediment, too, bad arisen in consequence of the holidays, which had occasioned the shutting up of the British Museum, in which he had found it necessary to search for some essential papers. He oughtto add, however, that great courtesy had been shewn him by the persons in the superintendence of that establishment, so as to enable.him to visit it twice, notwithstanding its !being shut to the public. At the same time, the cla sing of the Institution was certain ly an impediment to his inquiries, .as he felt the expediency of not trespassing on the indulgence which he had experienc ed. Under all these circumstances, however, her Majesty's -Memorial was delivered in on Monday the 25th of June. Ile would altogether abstain at present from saying any thing m on the matter of th a t M e orial, understandin g th a t it was under consideration, and feeling it impossible to anticipate such an answer as should preclude him from being heard in a proper quarter in support of her Majesty's claim. As to the argument grounded on the near approach of the Coronation, they were very much deceived who supposed that there was any want of time in which to listen to .such an application. Between the present period and the period fixed for the Coronation there was an interval of seventeen days. There were instances in wTnich the Proclamation for announcing a Coronation had been issued only 16 days before the period at which that Coronation was ap pointed to take place. There had been instances of changes in the arrangements for a Coronation, made in a subsequent Pro clamation, only nine days before the period at which the Coro- , nation was appointed to .take place. There had been instances of such changes having been proclaimed only two days before the period at which the Coronation was appointed to take place. To talk, therefore, of time now pressing, or, of incoavemence resulting from any imputed delay, was to talk with utter neglect of all precedent and usage. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he should trespass very shortly upon the time of the House; in answer-to the re marks of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, upon what he (the slarquis of Londonderry) was supposed to have said on a former evening. It was really never his intention, in what he did Say; to go out of his way in order to throw any reflections upon the professional conduct of the twa _Moil, and Learned Gen tlemen (Mr. - I.trongham and .111 r. __Denniain) I,lca teasi merely contrasting the rapidity with which they expected an answer to their memorial, and the slowness of their proceeding in the pre sentation of it. As to what had been now said by thejlion. and Learned Gentleman who had just spoken, he seemed to h a v e been adverting to wh a t h a d f a ll en from him (Lord London derry) on former occasions-, in regard to the right or otherwise of her Majesty to be crowned. Now the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen, both of them, would allow him to recall to their recollections, that there was not one out of the many painful debates which they had had, connected with similar subjects, during the Session, in which he did not distinctly, so far as his own impression enabled him to do so, contrast those rights which the Queen was to be held as legally possessed of; with those which the grace and favour of the crown might con. fer upon her, and that among these latter he (Lord London derry) did enumerate .a participation in the Coronation. He therefore could not but suppose. that the attention of the Hon. and Learned .Gentleman (Mr. Brougham), and of his colleague, had been called to this subject long ago • that it was not, in f ac t, 'on the 21st of M a y th a t t h e not i on of fier Majesty's claim first burst upon them, but long before that period. It was not on the 21st May only that their attention could have been directed to the subject, be - cause there was a regular application made by the Queen to the first Minister of the country (Lord Liver pool) in the interval between, the 21st of May and the date of their first Memorial, desiring to know in what formal way she, - the Queen, was to attend at the Coronation.—(llear.) The answer to that application distinctly was, that the right of nominating those who were to attend at that ce remony was in the Crown; and that his Majesty was ad vised, that he could not allow her Majesty to be present. That answer certainly led to a rejoinder from her. Majesty, intimating that she w o uld b e p resent un l ess s h e were absolutely prolOited.—( [lear.)—ln return to this a communication equally respectful, but equally peremptory, was conveyed to her Ma jesty, stating that his Majesty's Ministers could not advise that her Majesty should be received. Now in all this there was no concealment surely, and on the part of her Majesty the commu nications were made, he believed, in her own hand-writing. As to the other occasion of the 21st of May, on which he (Lord L.) had adverted to this subject in the House, the Hon. and Learn ed Gent. (Mr. Bro ug h am ) did not then lay down any contrary law or doctrine upon the question. Without attempting to im pute to either of the Hon. and Learned -Gents. any want of zeal for the interest of their royal client, which zeal they had already so well and honourably proved that they possessed, he (Lord Londonderry) must say, he thought it a little hard that - such taunts and remarks should have been made in that House against his Majesty's Government; and those too upon a day (Saturday) when it might just have h a pp e ned th at no Minister had been there t o reply to them. It was, to be sure, a little stranno e that Non.. and Learned Gentlemen should be so astonished that a memorial, presented only on the. 25th, should not be answered by the 30th of. June. It did seem, he said, whale too much, that his Majesty's Ministers should be reproved and taunted, as if there had been, on their part, a denial "of justice. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Denman) would permit him to observe, that his tone was so significant and so criminatory the other night, that he'(Lord Londonderry) was hardly prepared to reply to it, except that he, too, could state a few d a t es . Th e H on. an d L earned Gentles man on the second bench would allow him also to say, that he must have very imperfectly looked at his documents. .It was proper for the house to know that it was not till that morning that the first regular and formal memorial was presented to his Majestyin Council. The fact was, that three memorials had been presented ; one dated the 21st of June, another dated the 25th of luxe, and a third on the Ist of July. The memorialof the,2lst of June was addressed by her Majesty to the King as her Sovereign; that of the 25th, which was presented by Lord HOod, was pray. ing to be heard by Counsel, but was not addressed to his Ma. jesty in Council. Now, according to the forms of office, her Majesty could not be heard by that sort of application. On the Ist of - July' the lion. and Learned Gentleman finding that he had not made his applications as they ought to have been made, forwarded another memorial dated on that day, praying that her Majesty might be heard by Counsel before the King in • Council. Even this was not very formal; but in that essential particular it was correct. The moment that the Secretary of State received the first Memorial, a communication was had with the Lord Chancellor, and the matter was imme 'diately referred to the law officers of the Crown. Now cer tainly it would have shown a very great want of respect for'that memorial, if his Majesty's Ministers had advised the King to reply to the application made by her Majesty, without having a renewed reference made to the crown lawyers. If satch reference was made to those law officers on the 27th, and was not answer ed on the 110th, the house would hardly think that there had been, on the part of Ministers, any undue delay ; especially when, upon' the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's own showing.' itoccupied the whole interval between the Pth and the 21st of June before he'put in his first memorial. The first and second memorials that were presented. on the Queen's behalf, were equally informal, if her Majesty was to be heard by her lenal 1 advisers. But an answer was returned to them to the ef t s t that his Majesty was advised by his law servants teat • her Majesty had no right to appear at the Coronation. Then came the third and last Memorial, which was the -first one that was formal. That had been submitted to his Majesty during the day.—(Hear, hear !)—lt was now hiv. l ' (Lord Londonderry' ,1 duty to say, that his Majesty was ask vised, that to grant the prayer of such - applica%w as *et to bes ,considered as a matte? of right; hill that it - -chn. my .. , s .rent.• ' ed as - a matter of grace and favok lis Majesty had, how ever, decided that her Majesty should be ward by her Counsel upon the subject.—(Hear, hear !)—As to any doubts which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had chosen to notice as furnish ing additional reasons for the delay on his part, the House must . e ''... 3 ' h'e. be well aware that the intention of completing the whole sere, mony of the Coronation immediately had been matter of pub lic Mr. DENMAN said, if there had been any thing violent or ,Sll warm in his manne r o n a f ormer occasion he was sorry for it ; -;' he had not intend e d t o cast any imputation .on'any person,b u t he did feel, a nd atilt h e reta i ned the - impression, that her Majesty had a right to co m pl a i n, t h at when she had applied on Monday respecting her claim, an d t h ere was reason to think that the opi nion - 1 of the Cou nc il was a l ready made up, they had not let her -,i'.'.- know that opinion o n S atur d ay. - He could not think that they 1 . , • i ',would hare been at all justified in putting forward any claim ,:• on the part of her Majesty until they were certain that the ce- Iremony would take place. They could not know from the :, h 1 preparations, as those had been entered upon before, and the ' ceremony had been' delayed ; nor could he alloW that her . Majesty had any right to take notice of what fell from the : 1 Noble Lord in Parliament. He was aware that an application had been made by her Majesty to Lord Liverpool, but at that dine he and his Learned Friend were out of town on their cir- I cuits ; and undoubtedly her Majesty never could think of ad vancing a legal claim to the King in Council without taking S advice. With res p ect to t h e observation of the Noble Lord, ' that he had o n ly comp l a i ne d of the-delay on their part, in de- ' • fence of oth ers , b e (M r. D enman) did not know how that could - apply ; b ecause if t h ey h ad already determined on excluding her Majesty, certainly it must be on an opinion alre a dy ma d e u p, and that might have been communicated at once. He had no i 'apology to - off er un l ess f or expressing himself - with any w ar mth t• of manner. He still thought her Majesty had a right to com. • plain; ' With respect to her Majesty's Memorial claming to be .•; crowned, no no man could doubt that it was intende' to be ad dressed to the King in Council, and it was the duty of those who had any doubt on the subject of the claim, to have put the argument in train for being heard. Mr. BROUGHAM, in explauation;confirmed the statement of his lion. and Learned Friend, that hex Majesty's first appli cation was originally unknown to them. The question was then put that the Bill be read a third time. Mr. BERNAL moved an amendment for excluifing the ar rears.- In form, it was for altering the effect of the Bill from 1818 to 1821. di vided Strangers were then or d ere d to w i t h draw ; and the. House upon Mr. BERNAL'S amendment, when there appeared-- - For the Amendment , ' - - - 33 Against it. - _ - - - 94 Majority _ _ - - "-s-61 On our re-admission to the Gallery, we found Lord A. lIA- 'MILTON on his l egs , contending that the Mode in which this grant had been introduced was irregular. To prevent it from being drawn into a precedent, he should move a Resolution to that effect to be inserted on the Joarnals 'of the House. The Noble Lord concluded by moving the Resolution. After a few words from the Marquess of LONDONDERRY . , the Resolution was put, an d negatived without a division.—Tbe Bill was then passed. PREVENTIVE SERVICE. 1 Sir IV. DE CRESPIGNY rose to bring forward his motion, for a Copy.of the Warrant issued in aid of the Preventive Ser .- vice, on the Weymouth and the Isle of Portland Station, bf which a woman named Gibbs was most indecently and impr°S perly searched,• and under which a clergyman was disturbio . and injured while addressin g . his congregation. The CHANCELLOR of the EX - CHEQUER, after a few words, which were totally inaudible in the Gallery, moved di e previous question. After a few words from Mr. BENNET, -The CHANCELLOR o f t h e EXCHEQUER said, that if the, Honourable Memb er wou ld make application to the 'Per sury, he would take care to afford hiM every information on nie subject. Sir J. SEBRIGHT thouht it would b e mo r e a d v i sa ble for emhi Mbers to make private inquiry before they b r o ug ht - so'ta subjects before th e H ouse. H e himself had frequently r , grievances laid before him, but upon applying to the nr , °,l:: I offices, he had generally received the most satisfactory ons :c _wear, hear !)—He must say, that statements of this nat ur e ~.. did serious injury to the country, lint more particularly t t he militaryndepartment Sir W. DE CREST)" GNY - then withdrew his Motion. 'NAVY HA ler-PA IP. Mr. F. BUXTON presented a - Petition from two Ladiels named Mrs. Bevan and Mrs. Harrison, stating that ti:ey vser c the wives of officers who had se rve d f or a g r eat l engt h of tilue,. (One of them 40 years) i n the N avy ; t h at their' husbands ha__ ing-been. at different periods seised with insanity (one, of 'th.e s e Pr At Walcheren in 1809), they (the Ladi es ) cont i nue d to retch ` the full half p a y (their hu.sbands being pr ov id e d f or by Govern ment) until 1818, when they received notice that they werF a if , receive in future only half the usual half pay, the other 1 . 1 _ going to the support of their husbands. The Hon. Membeeee' proceeded to state the oreat distress to which these Ladies were reduced, reduced, and observed", that when they complained, they S , !'_ ! , told that they might receive the full half 'pay, on the conditis of their undertaking to support their husbands. ' ' • The SPEAKER m a d e - some remar k s upon the irregdriil ' sa of the petition, it being a claim for pecuniary , relief. I sra - After a few w or d s f rom Mr. Banked, Sir 3. Yorke, ,,„ . Milton, Mr. W. Wynn, Sir G. C oc kb urne , L or d A. lineal the Marqui s o f L on d on d erry, Mr. Buxton, Mr. Brogdeth an the ' the Speaker, Mr. CALCRAFT recommended th e H onoura bl e )/emb er ~,n s , to withdraw th e p e ti t i on f or t h e present, and bring it fbr.6*.ion the next d a y i n anot h er shape.—The petition was then. drawn. ~w s on Mr. G. BENNET pr e sente d a petition from Jane sesmae, Doubled a y, o f N ott i ngham, aga i nst delays in the Court or 1-' I eery.—Ordered to licnon the table. L •• - • LOTTER Y BILL. , Ordered to be read a third time this day. 1 The Report on the Lottery Bill was brought up, and the 1 34 ` 11 EXTRA POST BILL. i The Report on this Bill being brought up, inu 3 c i l r i . ii C ie ‘ o l i ii iv C en il ie A n i Ce T to ob le c r of the Mr. N. CALVERT said, that as the expence and loss experiment would necessarily fall on the individuals who Pro posed to make it, he thought that the trial mihtbe made- . e , • Mr. NIABERLEY 'defended the conduct of the CommT te The Committee were be tried, in the hope of a better one being in time adopted eess objected to men. Mr. as likely to prodoc e Mr. P. MOORE said he would oppose the further Profs' of the Bill. o f bei A n l g r. m F a . d i e j , E i t W O .j ug S h s t ai t ( o l, i no reason for creating a new establishment, or embarkital.h.e. n e new advetwure, but above all, of creating a new rate. of p t a b . The House then divided on the Bill. .t b b e at n i l fd e he b exp h e a ri p m a e s n t l a w ffi -e c r e e . wor , For the Bill 31—A ga i ns ti t 39—Majority against the Bill t/' ' THE APPROPRIATION BlLL s i o scl The Report on thi s Bill was hrsinglit up, and. the Bill ° to be read a third time this day. POOR RELIEF BILL. e re' Mr. SCARLETT • moved the Order of th e D a y for' ti: , ze ns turning the adjou rne d d: bate on this Bill, t'o r th e p ur pose ° f diii moving that it be withdrawn. The lion. Member said. l'' .b ot not wish to provoke Or revive any disCiission on this measur_ e og merely to make a few remarks as to his• motives for withan:4ll, it. On 'some future occasion he intended going at ; L i oill i into the question. His Gallant Friend (Sir Ildbert 0 , , J i ll! , had, lie knew, a great store of learning prepared ae ; aisi- 1 ,',-,o . i'h on this subject ; but he had only to rub up Ins own I r egel on tio, ledge, and he hoped to be able to meet trim. In the c et ial't Session he meant to bring-forward the measure,. substa'h the as he introduced it during the present Session. .It - he fc ° dov e ' House as tii,poshl then to support him as lie had hitherW c dpr he should also introduce a Bill for the better re gu l a tion_ o l ds rish relief. As the law LOW existed, no man echo had tncsh, lent dren could be taken as a soldier ; but.that man whsil P w eici , two children, called on the parish for their sup . port , n. _ was also belied to provide a substitute to serve in his Te a by OS Sir R. WILSON said; he hoped he would be prepsr e s ar o s . next Session to become-a qualified adversary to his gr oun d ; Friend, as he intended disputing with him even) , inch 9 101 ive.', Dr. LUSHINGTON said, that if he thought the ne t sly' to interfere with the real comforts of the poor, he . wool" re a s ell - it his support, but he looked upon the Bill as a Inisrasatuote their to remove the causes of their degradation, and to P h ° as t he Bill real independence. The Hon. Member had saiii s ,',,i, thing, it _ n . ° to a u; a a s s aa B m i e ll as t u a re ta to ke pr a s: a e y nt an in d a a r e ri a te a sL a it g w em as en. noprovidens marriages. —Mr. F. PALMER rose, when Mr. SCARLETT said, that he had av had waived his the measure, and he thought it unfair, after ° and to mitre re' light, for Hon. Gentlemen to open a ,demb'it He might be assi - sent the principles and objects of the 13- - d n himself was an . milated to a madman, but the Hon. Gentleman abhorrer, and an abhorrer could not reason. Gentleman Mr. URNEY assured the Hon. and dreamed a want of that he did not mean to betray even in appearance cour*..sy to him. ' aelf to support the Mr. T. COURTE NA Y p , leslged i' mm s ,, ,ssi „ . principle of the Poor Laws ia.t.ie ensure g th the Honourable and Mr. lIARBORD differed entirely w oideidieall argument 0?