The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-04 00:00:00

to the endowment of what he called religious error • but he would ask the Right Hon. Baionet who was to be the judge of what was religious truth? Was that House to go into Committee, to discover what was and what was not religious truth ?—(Laughter.) But the Treasury had no religious persuasion at all, and the question, - after all, was not whether there should be a Roman Catholic prieAhood in Ireland, but whether they should be had or good—literate or illiterate—clergymen or,de magogues. But where was the sum to support these clergymen to come from ? He could not conceal from him ,elf that the resobition of the Right lion. Baronet op poAte would Wtimately lead t:) the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church ; and he was not prepared to take so large a sum film taxes, which were principally open the'English pei_ple. But were there no other funds from which the money could be taken? He would put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Ec ' clesiastioal Commissioners, wit) were acting under the Church Temporalities Act, had not had a great deal more money in their hand than they well knew what to do e, jai ? He very moth regretted the lion. Member for Sheffield had not, on that occasion, brought forward his motion for abolishing the Establi ,hcd Church in Ire land, because he was convinced, until they put an end to that Establishment, the question relating to Irish griev ances would not be set at rest. When he first entered It was perfectly understood that the College was to be eqablished and supported by the voluntary .contribu tions of the Roman Catholic body, and on the present 3d of April there was no compact, statute or implied, or existing even iu feeling, that support should be de rived from Government. On the 29th April, 1808, a statement had been made by Sir Arthur Wellesley, at eat time Secretary of the Irish Government, that the ellege of Maynooth was not to be supported from the public purse. Now, if a flea were to he male that this grant was necessary, in order that the peace of society *eight be better secured, lie (Sir R. Inglis) would ask, what was the state cif seciety in 1794 and 1795, and the state of the Church of Rome, as compared with the pre sent time ? The experience of any man acquainted with public affairs would reply to the cries tiintlli that it was ex pected that the Raman r aelholie Church was to be sunperied at its own expense. This was evident from the memorial of the Boman Catholic Archhi.hop, presented to Parliament on the 4th of April, 1794, in %%Inch he hid expressly declared that if permissien was granted to erect the Colloge of Maynooth, the nit iniers of the Roman Catholic (birch I's!c prepared to support it from their own funds. His Right Hen. Friend at the head of the Government had referred to the opinion expressed by an illustrious states men in the course of his speech, to whom he could never refer without bearing his (Sir Robert Inglis's) testimony, and who had exhibited a consis tency of conduct and principle well worthy of the great interests he was called upon to direct, but it should be recollected that that great statesman had not originated this grant, for it remained during his time just as it had been previously conferred. It mattered not whether it Was 8,0001., or any other sum ; he could say fer himself, and he believed he might assert for 'hose friends who acted with him, that it was perfectly immaterial whether the sum voted was B,OOOL. or double that amount, or half that amount; what they objected to was, any endowment at all fur the Church of Rome. He believed that they would, none of them, be accused of want of toleration for refusing to be parties to this grant and he did not despair in the hope that there e ould be found a majority in that House who would represent the majority of the people of England—(Hear)—and if his Right on. Friend was disposcd to neglect the opinion of that Majority, he would beg to remind him, from the in fittehee of public opinion on the education clause which her Majesty's Government had propounded some four or five years ago, on the discussion of that measure, and to beg them to calculate what would be the* effect of the expression of that same public opinion on the present measure, for he had sufficient confidence in his countrymen to believe, that if even a majority of this House were to confirm the grant which had been pro posed by his Right Hon. Friend, that it would be vir tually nullified by the opposition which it would en counter in the feelings and convictions of the country. If the opinion of Mr. Grattan were to be referred to, it was plain that that opinion was in opposition to the principles of this grant to Maynooth, for he believed • that it would promote anything but order and peace. In the discussion five years ago the Hon. Member for Dun garvon (Mr. Shell), in speaking 'on this question, had expressed his opinion as being hostile to this grant; and Lord Morpeth, then Secretary for Ireland, who on that occasion came down to the House with the Irish sta tutes in his hand, had created a sensation from which the House did not recover so soon as he thought it ought to have done; but he was surprised that * the inti mations of that Noble Lord had not been acted upon. What was the language of the Act to which the Hon. and Learned Member had made reference ? He (Air R. Inglis) believed that it would not bear the construction put upon it by the Hon. and Learned Member. It was the foundation on which his Right Hon. Friend had en deavoured to build the argument he had advanced that evening. How ran the Act of the 35th George 111. ? It ran thus :—" Whereas by law, as now enforced, it is not lawful to endow any college or seminary for the edu cation of Roman Catholic persons, be it therefore enacted," and so forth. Then it went on—" The trustees named in the Act and their successors will have power and authority"--Did the House think it was to demand an annual grant from a Protestant country ?—" to re "il'e teatiscriptions and donations, to enable them to establish and endow an academy." Did this em power them to a k support fur their College at the expense of the nation ?—(Hear.) When the Roman Catholics of Ireland asked in the year 1794 or 1795 for only one seminary to educate their priest lincd, they asked as much as the Parliament of that year wnuiel grant, and more than the Irish Parliament of a few years before would have even entertained. So far were the Roman Catholics of that day from maintaining that they were entitled to support from Government, that they were even contented with the permissicn to apply subscriptions and donations to the purposes of education. In the construction of en Aet of Parlia ment the intentions of the parties making it should be considered, and he was sure that the promoters of that Act never intended to lay down the principle that the support of the Roman Catholic priest hood should be binding on the country.—(Hear.) He contended that the pledge given at the Act or Union that 8,0001. should be given to this College for twenty years had been fully redeemed. He was opposed to further concessions on this subject, for the experience of the last twenty years proved that when concessions were made by Parliament its power was just so much weakened.—(Hear, hear.) In the same degree that they endowed the Roman Catholics they withdrew their support from the Protestant institutions of the country. It was alleged that the proposition of the Government would have th e e ffect of conciliating Mr. O'Connell and 11 3 Party. B ut h ow cou ld t h at b e ? I n 1831 M r . O'Con nellt said that the grant ought to be 70,0001., but that he 6 atilol noti:are whether it was abandoned altogether, as the clergy would still be educated without Govern -11.31,ent aid..—( Hear, hear.) He hoped that he had not zD aded alt oget h er in proving that the proposed m easure , I' it could be defended at all, was not to be defended on the ground of any compact, either by Act of Parliament or by unbroken usage. If it could be defended at all, it was only on the ground of expedi eney—a word for which he had no particular favour— and which was justified only when considered with a view to correct principle.—(Hear, hear.) But he thought that, even on the ground of expediency, the Ministers would signally fail. He thought that the Catholics were as well able to maintain the education of their priests as the Dissenters of this country ; and he could not recognise any claim of theirs to pre-eminence in this matter. Sarely the education by the State of a body of Men whole conscientious desire it must be to root out the Protestant, or State Church (as he would call it), as a nuisance in the sight of men, and a serious evil in the sight of God, was as great folly on the part of the State as that of the Dutch who sold gunpowder to their own - besiegers. He did not suppose that the Ministers were actuated in bringing forward this measure by any other motive than a wish to do what was right between all parties.—(l-lear, hear.) But he hoped his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government would believe i that he spoke in the most inoffensive spirit when he said that it was to be regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet had n o t ear li er made known to the House and the country what his views were upon this question.—(Hear, hear.) He regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet did not state those views in 1840.-- (Cheers) For his own part, he (Sir R. Inglis) was not ashamed to say that he took his stand on Protestant Christianity—(Hear, hear)—that had been the Consti tution of this country for three hundred years—and although the vessel had, of late, been much tossed and shattered, yet there was still a Protestant feeling at the mast head, and as long as one plank remained, he, for one, would nail to the mast that flag of Protestant Chris tianity which, in better times, had waved over the whole empire. —(Cheers.) He thanked the 'Luse for the I patience with which he had been heard, and concluded by moving a negative on the question, in the terms of the notice which he had placed in the hands of the Chairman.—',The Right Hon. Baronet was muc che ere d at t h e conc l us i on of his speech, and immedi ately after his resumin g hi s seat, ,Members in great numbers left the House.) Capt B. OSIT HINE, alto was for some minutes in audible Irons the noise of' Members 1 eying the House, said, that for three hundred years the Government of this country had been endeavouring to root out the Catholic religion from Ireland, but without success. That, religion had survived and flourished when every thing around it had been destroyed, He th o u g h t t h e present Governmentould notm was righta e lt changing the policy ; and as they e seven millions of people Protestants, th e y s h ou ld try to make them good l,.n s Ca tholics.—(Hear.) Th ere was one fact which sufficiently known in this c ountry — t h at ev e ry pulpit notn Aleynooth was required to be provided with a Bible ; and, from the paltry allowance, the College had given away last y ear 300 Bibl es. —(Hear, hear.) The bishops had also expunged, from the notes to the Catholic ver sion, every passage which was considered offensive to their Protestant fellow- c oun t rymen.--(E1 ear hear Ile was not at all sur p r i se d t h at the opposition ' to this ) mea sure arose from those who were the most ready to rail at the Roman Catholic priesthood for their want of eta : cation. (Hear, hear.) A short time ago an Irish Lord, 1 i weer of Parli ament , pu bli shed a letter in the Evening Nail, relating to the controversy which be had respecting the shutting up of a path to a c h a p e l. In that lett er th e N o b le Lcrd, the Marquis of West meath, was witty upo n the bad spelling of th e p ar i s h Priest, and d esignate d the Roman , Catholic pri es th oo d 63 " ema lated vermin', and ' amphibious creatures," who put their " unwashed feet upon the necks of the toor, unhappy, and much to be commiserated people." .was surprised h e h a d h eard nothing of the low Itnunognr iof these priests, b u t h e cou l d tell the House that Oman C atholics prided themselves upon raising their Clergy from the lowest classes. In the middle ages the higher c l ass offices of state,e a m n o d n i o t polised all the higher stations and was through the instrumentality of the Rornish hurch alone that democratic principles could find any outlet, and had it not been for this a lstein Luther himself w would have rema i ne d a f armer - Peasant. He hoped, therefore, he should hear no m ore of the low origin of the priesthood. Prussia b oasted of a Protestant population, and the Icing himself was a Protestant In 1815 the Rhenish States, whose inhabitants were Roman Catholics, were 1 • joined to Prussia , what h was the first-step Prussia took after this union and : Ca tholic College, and to place y' to themselvesfound a Romir. iin communication with the P ope ? In 1821 the Pope issued his bull, by which he empowered the Prussian Crown to confer with I 4 the cl ergy i n the election of Roman Catholic bishops ; and now a t and the corresndence between the clergy - Pope annually took . place, under the' superintendence of the C answered in Prussia, Ar.d, if this system why, he ask, should it not e su ht c s c s e e e s d of o here? It app eare d to hi m that there were two pp c o tei n c ents to this m easure . S oma lion., .Members objected to makin g any prov i s i on whatever.. while others,j . like the Ri g ht H on. Baronet the Membee fur Oxford, who thought they h a d an exc l us i ve monou , ly of the truth, and therefore they objected to what ' my called the endowment of error. With reference tse, the first class, he differed with them; but he had some: duffle cultirty,,,i: .meeting the objection of the Right Hote."Bertanct L 04 mber for Oxford. The Right Hen. Baru i et obikoted object was uppermost with the Right Hon. Gentleman. of their revenues, and then by way of reprisal th by —(Hear, hear.) As in the Dissenters' Bill•he had but took it out of the pockets of the English people, one object,' so in this measure he had but one object— and yet the Noble Lord called this restitution. the interest of both countries.—(Cheers.) And he When they looked to the sum of money which the trusted that, as he would in return meet the thankfulness people of England had paid to the landholders of Ire- , of the one, so in future tranquillity, when clamour passed land—when they looked to, the millions of money paid away, he would meet with honourable appreciation to the tithe owners, he could not allow them further to from the others --(Loud cheers.) He attached great put their' handsiato the pockets of the people of England value to the measure for many reasons—not only —he could not consent to this vote. on account of the liberality of the largess con- Lord ARUNDEL expressed his gratitude as a Ca ferred, but also because it substituted a perma- tholic of England for the measure of the Right Hon. nett legislative endowment for an annual Par- Baronet. liamentary donation, and thus avoided what all Mr. GROGAN opposed the measure of the Right concurred in considering was desirable to avoid—the Hon. Baronet. periodical recurrence of theological disputation.—(Hear, The Committee then divided , when the numbers hear.) This would give, to use an Iris h p hrase, " fixity were — of tenure to Maynooth," and he would state his opinion, For the resolution 216 as reference had been made to the ulterior measures that Against it might be in contemplation by the Right Hon. Gentle- Majority for Ministers — 102 _ man, at the hazard of occasioning dissertation and The resolution was reported, and the following Bill criticism in Ireland—that, though they mightamend two Acts passed in Ireland fir the better attempt to take the Roman Catholic clergy under their education of persons professing the Roman Catholic re care, they ought to take the Catholic worship under ligion, and for the better government of the College esta their protection.—(Cheers.) He thought that an blished at Maynooth for the education of such persons, honourable distinction. without any degradation to any and also an Act passed in the Parliament of the United party, between the Church and State could be effecte'd Kingdom for amending the said two Acts," was read a —a ty, relation• in return for which they should first time, and ordered to be read a second time on expect, on the part of the Roma n Catholic clergy, Friday, the 1 lth of April. no ignominious complaisance.—(Hear, hear.) He was The House then resumed. satisfied that the Roman Cathelic clergy would reject Captain PECHELL moved for copies of several re any stipend periodically paid at the Castle, at the plea- ports relating to the late trial cruises of her Majesty's sure of the Government—(Hear, hear.); but there could ships Queen, Caledonia, St. Vincent, Camper down, be no objection raised against building Roman Catholic Albion,Espiegle, Daring, Flying Fish, Mutine, Water places of worship, and glebe houses for the Roman Ca- witch, rantaloen, Osprey, and Cruiser.—Agreed to. tholic clergy, without requiring from them any condi- Mr. E. ELLICE moved for a Select Committee to ins tions for the favours conferred upon them, thus making quire into the practical operation of the Acts 2 and 3 them independent, giving them a true conservative Vic., c. 42, 5 and 6 Vic., c. 67, and 7 and-8 Vic., C. 34, so interest—he used the word in its general etymology far as the regulation of assessmentin ocUtratiesand burghs —in maintaining the institutions of the country, is concerned. and they would reap the benefit, of the result.— Mr. HAWES said he hoped the Lord-Advocate would (Loud cheers.) He would not go into the history of attend in his place to-morrow, as it wits his intention to the origin of the grant to Maynooth ; but every ask him a question with regard to the manner in which person know that Edmund Burke, to whom a clause, of an unusual description, was carried in the his Honourable Friend behind him had alluded, Scotch Consolidation Bill. was the man who suggested that Maynooth should be The LORD-ADVOCATE intimated his intention of established.—(Hear. hear.) He saw that French prin- doing so. ciples and French morals should not be amongst the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved imparts of Ireland. He perceived that a French educe- that the Bill relating to the Excise auction duties be Lion and a French fraternisation would be the con- read on Monday, when he would bring forward a mo ductors between France, and the Gallo-Hibernian Lion for the repeal of those duties. establishment in Ireland would not be for the benefit of The House then adjourned at twenty minutes to Two the State.—(Cheers.) That was the origin of Maynootb, o'clock. and the Right Hon. Baronet was only carrying out the principle of Edmund Burke. It was said that the mo dern Catholic priest was inferior to the old one ; but Farquhar, the Irish dramatist, who was well acquainted with his countrymen, drew a portrait of one, in which the peculiarity of the Irish priest was drawn. It should be recollected that the Irish priest was strug gling for Catholic emancipation against tithes, for mu nicipal reform, -for the Registration Bill—for God's sake let them have the Registration Bill in the spirit in which this measure was enacted, if they wanted it to be final.—(Cheers.) Let them give an interest — an interest he would say to the Roman Catholic clergy, and a perfect reconcilement would take place.—(Hear.) So much had been said about a contract, and its exist ence was demonstrated with so much clearness, that it was hardly necessary for him to say a word upon the subject.—(Hear.) The Learned Recorder for L ondon had indeed denied it—but his Court was not a Court of equity, and though he spoke against the Ministers, he accompanied his observation with a recom mendation for mercy. But this was a measure which was not to be viewed in a small forensic, or scholastic spirit, but in a spirit of equity and justice. What was the objection to it? 9,0001. was already annually de voted to the purpose. The country had already under gone great change since this grant was made, and in considering the policy of the measure before the House they should recollect that &great metamorphose had taken place, and that no country had, in so short a time, undergone so great a change, social, moral, and political. When Maynooth was founded there were only three millions of Catholics, now there were seven. When Maynooth was founded there were only two Catholics at the bar, now there had been a Cathelic Chief Baron, a Catholic Master of the Rolls, and four Catholic Attorneys-General. When Maynooth was founded there was no Catholic member of any corpora tion, now Catholics had a preponderance in corporate bodies. When Maynooth was founded few Roman Ca tholics were educated, now the great bulk of the people were receiving education. And when men were taught to read, and write, and count, they would soon learn to think ; and if the whole body of the people were on the advance, ought the Catholic clergy to remain stationary? A great revolution was taking place, and with it the great Catholic Church must be carried on. Will this measure benefit you ? Yes, because it will benefit us ; for whatever benefits you confer upon us, you will reap the benefits of. An establishment would be founded where genius would be allured by legitimate remunera tion, and all those odious habits which parsimony caused at Maynooth, would be done away with. If they edu cated the priesthood in a proper manner, and placed in every district a gentleman in mind, as well as a scholar in education, whose disposition had undergone a process of refinement, they would do much for the country. The objects of .this measure had been gone through, and its utility demonstrated. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Recorder for London had talked about the profanity of educating laymen and clergymen in the same seminary. He differed from the Right Hon. Gentleman. In every country on the continent the Roman Catholic clergy were educated in ecclesiastical seminaries quite distinct from the laity. Their ascetic habits—their habits of su bordination—their absence of all sensual indulgence, indispensable to the formation of the Catholic priest, could not be had in a mixed seminary of this sort. In Trinity College, Dublin, he was satisfied at least that four years out of the time of the course was not passed in a manner the best adapted as a preparation for the confessional. The priesthood of Ireland were now moral. This could not be denied. They were not only pure, but unsuspected. Some peo ple said that Maynooth presented nothing but rusticity, where every individual brought his quota of contamt• nation. That was a mistake. He did not wish to see the sons of the Catholic aristocracy entering the Church. The duties of the Irish priesthood were such, that men trained in habits of luxury would not be very fit to perform them; and besides, they should remember that some of the greatest ornaments of the Church were men humbly born, Nature, as well as fortune, conferred a nobility. Before the R e formation the mighty plebeians stood up, and in the preeence of the Normahe ers.) n Conqueror Was , with the crozier turn ed as: the lance.—(C not that a circumsta nce that redounded great credit to th e Protestant Church , t hat men of the humblest birth might be raised to the bench of Ilishop o s and take ia , eytakin a seat in the Ho use of Lords-4 ,W f precedence of an Earl Marshal o England. With respect to the eost, there was great econee.7ty — great housewifery. They did not complain of the expanse of the State prosecutions, nor of the expente of maintaining a great military force there or a large constabulary. They should educate a moral police, of which they would soon find the benefit. Something had been said abou t idolatry. It was inconsistent with their consciences to propagate an untruth, but was it inconsistent with their consciences to make an annual grant for the ma int en ance of Catholicity in the colonies?—(Flear.) 26,000/. in the estimation of those Gentlemen was a venial sin, but 9,000/, for Maynooth was a mortal sin.— (L au ghter.) Such Wile the casuistry of Kent.—(Re newed laughter.) When they saw the Catholic religion subsisting as it had done since the establishment of Chris tianity, resuscitated in countries where it was supposed to be extinete traversing the .whole world, immortal and immutable, it o'o net with feelings of resentment, but with feelings of love that lie had listened to the speech of the lion. Member fur Kent. There was no reason for these attacks on the Catholics. He would not enter into ho any argument with tho s e baneful allies of darkness, w with that horrid sophistication which rendered men the plague among t heir species, because the mies OF htiman hope, the obliterators of light, and the messenger's of despair. The Roman Catholic Church had been represented as a failure c omplet, but he would eseerts for the honour o f that Church, that its mighty inffdefee had for Ag es been wouldactively at work in the amelioration or tfiatiners, the exaltation of intellect, and the promotion of that refitting principle which freed mankind from the debasing inflate:9 of this lower earth, and !eft them to follow the natural elevation ofthothelic ir higher Mitt-Ise In this respect, at least, the Ca Church had borne salutary fruit. Was there any rnhaagtnd who dared to say that the condition of the t 3 C.ll 7 not been improved by the exertitthe of the Itti h a d Catholic priesthood? With these facts Woe them, be did not think that any Government had the tiglrt to greund public legislation on the convictions for persotail theology, and he believed that to act upon this prin ciple would be to degrade these lofty maxims of policy on which an empire like this ought to be governed. If they would look at the position in which the eo: i int h ry Ives eased, they would find a sufficient answer t o ?l e e objections *lair','osiu t h had been urged in the consideratioonn of this question, and so great did he deem the ph the Prime Minister of England, that be thoughtbet ll daisre that was little and insignificant mi hell and hguagtdhetdihanehdtenrothinintog but his w e h o a h t teh but isla d l look t i a g t u o t h h s e was p great. agtht would large whthicehy teheoyulwdousledefianidi hoefyw others,oul d natttre—a country whose history. a to n t ri li t e l i s r h ow ein n ,pi i rne every principle developed which was engnofhollilngoftodheeudmsaonf P- a le. hos ir t l fl o o f d ts shpereoincsamr, annuelnudee,teGrrnriantteada,paianwdei whose names would live while the world endured. They would see a country filled with chivalrous men, whose h ea rt beat with sympathies as deep, as generous, as active as their own. They would see a country rich in tesottrees and teeming with fertility, and whose manifold adaantages must prove of inestimable advantage to the ittetas e mpire. They would see such a spectacle as would eleaste their ideas of all that was great and exalted, and the aspirations of which were worthy respect, if ever anything was worthy of consideration and respect. He would there assert that the policy of Government ought not to be directed by titreenal religious predilection. Let Eng land do justice to Ireland, and Ireland would have is appreciate the justice of England, and he trusted that the great Minister who had brought in this measure of kindness and conciliation might turn with a disdainful smile from those who professed to found all their appro bation on motives of mere political expediency. Let not the maxims of Government be founded on the principles of a small philosophy, and he would advise the Right lion. Baronet to fling the seals of office to the winds, rather than not proceed in the path of honour and justice to that hourne which was t he consummation of his bright est hopes—(Loud cheering.) Mr. DUNCOMBE said that he should oppose this grant on three grounds—first, on its permanency ; se cond, on the sources from whence it was to be derived ; and third, the purpose., to which it was to le applied. On the same principle that ho had opts' church rates, should be vote against this Tjiey first of till plundered the Irish Row PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. (From the Votes and Proceedings of the House Qf Commons.) THURSDAY, APRIL 3. MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.—(IN THE COMMITTEE.) Motion made, and Question put, " That the Chairman be directed to move the House, that leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Acts relating to the Coilege of Maynooth. The Committee divided : MAJORITY-AYES, 216. Acland, Sir T. D. Etwall, Ralph Pakington, J. S. Acland, T. D. Ferguson, Sir R. A. Palmerston, Viscount ...Ware, Viscount Fitxmaurice, W. Parker, John.J Adderley, C. B. Flower, Sir J. Patten, Ainsworth, Peter Forster, Matthew Pechell, Captain Aldam, William Fremantle, Sir T. Peel, Sir:R. Alford, Viscount French, F. Peel, Jonathan Arundel, Earl Gaskell, J. 31. Philips, G. It. Bane, Colonel Gibson, Milner'. Ingot, David Baird, William Gordon, Captain Plumrid W. Captain Baring, F. T. Gor e, Montague Freed, .T . Baring, Thomas Gore, Robert Pringle, Alexander ' Baring, W. B. Goulburn, Henry Pulsfonl, Robert Barnard, E. G. Graham, Sir J. Pussy, Philip Barrington, Viscount Granger, T. C. Rawdon, Colonel Bellew, It. M. Grey, Sir George Re ton, G. W. J. Bentinck, Lord G. Guest, Sir 3. Rice, E. R. Blandford, Marquis Hamilton, W. J. Roebuck, J. A. Boldero, H. G. 7 llamliton, Lord C. Round, John Borthwick, Peter Harcourt, G. G. Bons, Captain Bottield, Beriah Ilatton, Captain Russell, Lord J. Bowes, John Hawes, Benjamin Russell, Lord E. Bowles, Admiral ; lleneage, (I. H. W. Russell, Charles' Bowring, Dr. Herbert, Sidney Russell, J. D. W. Bramston, T. W. Hervey, Lord A. Bathe:lllrd, A. Brotherton, Joseph Hill, Lord M. Sandon, Viscount Browne, W. Hogg , J W Scott, Robert Brownrigg, J. S. Holland, Robert Seymour, Sir 11. Bruce, Lord E. Hope, Charle s Sheil, R. L. Shelburne, Earl Buller, Charles Hope, G. W. Buller, Edward Honldsworth, T. Smith, 3, A. Busfeild, William Howard, C. W. Smith, T.'B. C. Butler, P. S. Howard, .E. G. Smythe, George Byng, G. S. Howick, Viscount Somerset, Lord G. Campbell, Sir 11.7 Hutt, William Somerton, Viscount Cardwell, Edward Ingestrie, Viscount Somerville, Sir W. Carew, 11. S.. - James, Sir W. C. Stun T. H. Carew, W. 11. P. Jennyn, Earl ton, Sir G. Carnegie, Captain Jocelyn, Viscount Stewart, John Cavendish, C. C. Johnstone, Sir j. Stuart, Lord J. Cavendish, G. H. Labouchere, Henry Stuart, W. V. Chapman, B. Lambton, H. Strickland, Sir G. Childers, J. W. Lascelles, W. S. Strutt, Edward Clay, Sir W. Le mon, Sir C. Sutton, Henry • Clayton, R. it. Lennox, Lord A. Tancred, Clerk, Sir George Lincoln, Earl Tennent, J. E. ' Clifton, J. T. Listowel, Earl Thomely, Thomas Cobden, Richard Loch, James Towneley, John Cockburn, Sir G. Lowther, Sir J. 11. Train, Georze Colborne, W. R. Lyall, George Trench, Sir F. W. Collett,ke, Sir T. Macaulay, T. B. Trevor, G. R. Coll in s, John Mackinnon, W. J. Tuthell, Henry Colls, William Macnamara, Maier Tulle, li. 31. Coots, Sir C. 11. 3l‘Geachy F. A. Vane, Lord 11. Corry, Henry 31'Neill, Duncan ; Villiers, Charles Cowper, W. F. Mangles, R. 1). Villiers, Viscount Craig, W. G. Manners, Lord J. Wall, C. B. Cripps, William March, Earl Warburton, H. Dalmeny, Lord Martin, John Ward, H. G. Darner, Colonel Martin, C. W. Wawa, J. T. Dawson, T. V. Milnes, R. M. 'Wellesley, Lord C. D'Eyncourt, C. T. Mitcalfe, Henry Williams, William Dickinson, F. H. Mitchell, T. A. Wilshere, W. Divett, Edward Morison, General Wood, Colonel T. Dodd, George Murray, Alexander Worsley, Lord Duncan, Viscount Napier, Sir C. Wortle, John S. Duncombe, A. Neville, Ralph Wynn, y C. W. W. Dundas, Admiral Nicholl, John Wyse, Thomas Eastnor, Viscount Norreys, Lord • Yorke, E. T. Ellice, Rt. Hon. E. O'Conor, Don Yorke, H. R. Emlyn, Viscount Ord, William TELLERS. Escott, Bickham Oswa ld, Alexander Baring, Henry Esmonde, Sir T. Paget , Co lonel Young, John MINORITY-NOES, 114. Acker!, James Du Pre, C. G. Maclean, Donald Acton, C o l one l Eaton, R. J. M`Taggart, Sir J. Allis, J. P. Egerton, Sir P. Mainwarb , g, T. Antrobus, Edmund Ellice, Edw ard Marton, George Di as t e nnan, ld as t e nnan, John Archdall, Captain Entwisle, WiMara Ashley, Lord Farnham , E. B. Idaunsell, T. P. • Bagge, William Feiklen, W. Maxwell, J. P. Bankes, George Milner, Sir E. Morris, David Baskerville, T. B. Ffolliott, John; Mundy, E. M. Bateson, Thomas Forman, T. S. IsTeeld, Joseph Beckett, William Fox, S. L. Newdegate, C. N. Bercsford, Major Fuller, A. E. Newry, Viscount Blackstone, W. S. Gore, W. R. O'Brien. A. S. - BOUTCrIC, E. P. Gore, W. R. 0. Packe, C. W. Bradshaw, J. Goring, Charles Palmer, Robert Brisco, M.l Greenall, Peter Palmer, George Broadwood, H. Greenaway, C. Pollington, Viscount Bruce, C. L. C. Gregory, W. H. Rendlesham, Lord Buck, L. W. Grogan, Edward Richards, Richard Buller, Sir J. Y. Hamilton, J. H. Round, C. G. Burroughs, H. N. Hamilton, G. A. Ryder, G. D. Chetwode, Sir J. Hampden, Henn Sanderson, Richard Christopher, R. A. Haumer, Sir J. Sibthorp, Colonel Codrington, Sir W. Harris, Captain Smith, Abel Cole, H. A. Haste , Archibald Smyth, Sir H. Colquhoun, J. C. Henley, J. W. Spooner, Richard Colvile, C. R. Hepburn, Sir T. B. Stuart, Henry Compton, A. C. Hillsborough, Earl Taylor, Edward Copeland, Alderman Ilindley, Charles Tollemache, John Darby, George Hodg son, F. Turner, Edmund Deedes, William Jolliffe, Sir W. Tumor, Christopher Denison, E. B. Jones, Captain Tyrrell, Sir J. T. Dick, Quintin K emble, Henry Verner, Colonel D'lsraeli, B. Kni g ht, F. W. Vyv, an, Sir It. S. Douglas, Sir H. Law , C . E. Waddington, il. Douglas, J. D. S. Lefroy, Anthony Wyndham, Colonel Duncan, George Lockhart, W. TELLERS. DUriCOMbC, Thomas Long, Walter Inglis, Sir It H. Duncombe, 0. Mackenzie, T. rlumptrc, J.). COURT CIRCULAR. The Queen and Prince Albert visited her Majesty the Queen Dowager yesterday at se. Marlborough ou Colonel A r buthnot and Colonel Bouverie, the Equer H ries in Waiting, attended on horseback. Her Majesty and his Royal Highness were received at Marlborough House on alighting from their carriage by Sir Andrew Barnard. Her Majesty and Prince Albert rode on horseback in the Parks yesterday, attended by the Hon. Miss Hamilton, Maid of Honour in Waiting, and colonels Arbuthnot and Bouverie, Equerries in Waiting. Their Royal Highnesses the Prince of Wales, the Princess Royal, and the Princess Alice, were taken a drive yesterday in an open carriage and four, accom p a nied by the Dowager Lady Lyttelton. His Royal Highness Prince Alfred was taken an airing in the roy al gardens yesterday. Colonel Bouverie has relieved Major-General Sir Edward Bowater in the duties of Equerry in Waiting an his Royal Highness Prince Albert. Her Majesty and Prince Albert, attended by the Countess of Charlemont, the Earl of Hardwicke, and Colonel Arbuth not, honoured the Haymarket Theatre with their presence yesterday evening. His Royal highness the Duke of Cambridge visited her House. al the Queen Dowager yesterday at Marlborough l on ia :y.7 to attend OA Her Royal Highness the Grand Duchess Stephanie, of Baden, visited her daughter, the Marchioness of Douglas ht h Sir Witliam C. Boss, yesterday, at her asidenßce.Ain. the Qta,.en yesterday by he:Majesty's comman d . , e° ha n d na t u h g e A deputation from the Coal tarPtle , on the subject of enlarg. ing the Coal Exchange, consistirq of Messrs. R. Barrham, James Holl, George Smith, John Hill, and Wm. Home, had an interview with Sir George Clerk yesterday, at the office of the Board of Trade. Captain Taylor bad an interview with Lord Stanley yester day, at the Colonial Office. as, meeting of the Commissioners for the government of Pentonville Prison was held in the Council Office yesterday (Thursday) afternoon. The Commissioners present were— Lord Wharucliffe, the Duke of Richmond, the Earl of Devoe the Earl of Chichester, Major Jebb, Mr. Craufurd, and Mr. Russell. , Mr. Spottiswoode had an interview with the Earl of Dal housie yesterday, at the Board of Trade. Mr. B. Hawes had an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, at his o ffi cial residence in Dow ing. street. Mr. F. Pollock and Mr. Wilson had interviews with Lord Stanley yesterday. Lord Wharncliffe, Lord President of the Council, has ar rived in town horn Brighton. f March arrived at their residence The Earl and Countess o in Chisham-place on Wednei;day, for the season. The Right Hon. Andrew anal Mrs. Rutherford arrived at Farrance's Hotel on Wednesday; from Edinburgh. —..... Her Majesty has graciously pvsented a donation of 50/., to the Artists' General Benevolent Institution. .whose anniversary dinner will take plcce on Saturday, the 19th inst., when t he Ri g ht Hon. Ile.ary Labouchere will preside. nat impression El 'WRY -LANE THEATRE.—The g cr eated by the performanc es of Duprez last y ea r have ° led to his present enga g ement, which comaitlnces, gm find, on Monday next. The extraordry reputatior, enjoyed by this eminent ai tiste, throe„ the e"tiv .o continentos. fully sustained by the qtr^ he possesses, which has so long e' loped itself both on the Frr which was last year equer at this theatre. •Tns WitECF , ship, lost on t' entirely e: einplo be' TUE SUN, LONDON, PRIDAY EVENING , APRIL 4 1845. the presentPariianent,beVard the [lon. Member for East Kent express hie delight at the Right Hon. Baronet taking office, because the Right Hon. Baronet was op posed to the maietenance of Romanisin in Ireland. The lion. Gentleman's opinion must be somewhat altered now. He was afraid they would have to call in some of the Custom-house authorities, to discriminate between the vices of the Right Hon. Baronet, and those of the Noble Lord who sat on the Opposition side of the House. He ful:y sympathised with the Right Hon. Baronet. and hoped he would not be deterred from his present princi ples by a" No Popery" cry. The time was gone by, when the House was to be deterred from doing its duty by a bigoted agitation.—(Cheers.) Mr. GREGORY confessed that he had heard some singular arguments in favour of this measure. In the first place the Right Hon. Gentleman who brought it forward had told them that it would tend to encourage Protestantism in Ireland. Why, if this were so, they had only to make an additional grant to the Pro testant Church in Ireland to encourage Romanism. While the Right Hon. Gentleman was speaking, he stated that it was in accordance with the wishes of the Roman Catholic prelates that he introduced this mea sure. He (Mr. Gregory) however heard it perpetually stated that this measure was decidedly against the wishes of the Roman Catholic clergy, but that they were forced to it by the laity. He was not of opinion that the clergy had lost their influence so far over the laity. For a long time he could not understand how this measure was to be brought forward. When the subject was on a former occasion introduced by his Friend the Noble Member for North Lancashire, it was objected to his measure by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) that he was unwilling to adopt any course that would connect the State with any Dissenting Establishment. It was said that this was a question whether the Roman Catho lic clergy should be educated or not. He never would be an advocate for ignorance, but he would object to the course of education pursued at the College of Maynooth. He would ask, had there emanated from that institution within the last twenty years one single constellation in the literary world? He would contend against the course of education. proceeded with there, and also would vote against the grant. Had the Right Hon. Baronet come to the House and said, Do away with the College of Maynooth, and institute colleges through out Ireland, and let there be no exclusive religious edu cation, then he (Mr. Gregory) would support those colleges. Maynooth had brought up the priest hood in a manner that had rendered them a repulsive body. It did not raise them to a position that would do justice to their ardour and zeal. It made them unwilling to enter into society. He hoped he had not said anything that was in any way calculated to offend the feelings of those who were op posed in religious opinion to' himself, if he had, he hoped that they would not attribute it to intention on his part. If an exclusive religious education was adopted, and if this establishment was disconnected with the State, they .would find the, Roman Catholic. priests loyal end or derly, not the leaders in agitation, but exercising that influence, which should be used not to sever, but to rivet those chains with which nature had bound down their consciences. Lord F. EGERTON said that he was deeply sensible of the fact, that his vote this night would he at variance with the views and opinions of those who supported him —of those, the representing of whom he alwal s ge.residered the greatest honour he could obtain. It was, therefore, with regret that he could, with reference to any subject, express a difference of opinion from his supporters. lie on that account felt it incumbent upon him not to keep silent altogether, though he was not anxious to interfere with the House on a subject that was nearly exhausted. He would not enter into the state of the establishment of Maynooth, but it was clear, that whatever contracts were made consequent on the arrangements of 1795, it was evident, he would say, that no such contracts would bind them at the present day. He was of opinion, that the other course which was suggested by his Rightl Hon. Friend who had just sat down—that cf abolishing the grant altogether—would be, under the circumstances, an un reasonable one ; he thought that such a measure would be dangerous to the State ; it would be considered as an insult and an injury—it would be perilous to the Established Church, and an obstacle and a bar to any increase of Protestantism in Ireland. It had been ex plained, that the expen - e at the College of Maynooth was given per head, and it appi aced to be three pounds less than was allowed to a private soldier. — (Hear, hear.) A private soldier got from the State 251. and a student at Maynooth was allowed 231., which was 21. less. He would take the occasion to say, and he was sure that the House would agree with him in stating that the lion. Member who had just sat down had not used any language which could be hurtful to anybody, and that what he had said reflected great credit on him. He (Lord F. Egerton) had, on a former occasion, which was referred to by his Hon. Friend, the honour of moving for a larger grant to Maynooth, and he wished to say that, with referenee to his constituents, he had nothing to reproach himself with, as regarded consis teney. He would also say that, with reference to his religious feeling, which could hinder him from sup porting the course now suggested, he did not think that discussions on religious faith were fit for the atmosphere of that House. He hoped, however, that his religion would be only known by his practices. From what knowledge he had of Ire land, and the views which he entertained towards that country, he did not see anything that could deter him from exercising that liberality which was to-night pro posed. He should have some difficulty_in coming to the conclusion of granting 30,0001. to the Maynooth College, if his religious feelings were to be alone considered, but he did not see how they could interfere. He recollected that on his introduction of a measure of a like nature some time ago, it was received with great consideration by the House, and was not met by any uncontrollable principles; even in the state of opinion in that day it was not considered an inexpedient measure. He con • fessed that he thought the measure a reasonable one, and itwould not be met by any objection from him. He could not alter his opinion as to the expediency of the measure which he on a former occasion proposed. Mr. WARD said that he merely rose to state, in as few words as possible, the reasons why he should press the vote which he should make to-night. He should, also, express the heartfelt gratification with which ho had heard the principles laid down by the Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government. It should be pleasing to any man to see those principles stated to the House in such an irresietitde manner. Whatever the Hon. Member for Oxford might any, though he sand there as the repre sentative of a Protestan t constituency, he could not believe it could be the real and unaffected feeling of this country, when the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet came to be calmly and deliberately discussed. The Noble Member for Dublin, considering the party which he represented, made a speech which did credit to his taste, but he said he felt deep disappointment at the result of the experi ment tried in 1795. What better ground could he seek for that disappointment than the fact that he had refused to educate the Roman Catholic clergy in a proper manner ? lie assigned salaries to the students of the College of Maynooth, which he would not assign to hie butler or his cook. When such was the state of things, what else could result than disappoint. mint? If they treated them as good subjects, and as fellow Chri s tians, th e y wou ld fi n d diff e r e nt results. The lion. Gentleman asked also why they should make a grant to the Catholic clergy, when they did not allow such a thing to any other dissenting sect. Why should they not give it to them when they confis cated their property for their own purposes ?—(Hear.) The lion. Gentleman (Mr. Ward) then proceeded to observe that he never saw a nobler determination than that which was displayed by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, to make amends for his former conduct in refusing to increase the grant to that institution—(Hear, hear) — and he could not see what inconsistency there was in it. The principles laid down for the government of those who made this grant at the time of the union were the same as they were now; and when Mr. Pitt and Lord Howick, and many other Hon. Members, had agreed at one time upon this subject, they were overruled by the act of a small but compact party in their tbirst for that power which was the principal element by which they were banded together in that Houle.---(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet has made a liberal proposition in his proposed increase of this grant, and he (Mr. Ward) would not oppose it; but it would be his duty, in order to follow a consistent course, to contend that thin sene should not be paid out of the general taxation a the country.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he coulea no t sa y that this measure had his cordial support . , tor he thought it was a mistake to supply the grant P ,rom the fund from which it was proposed to take it. He did think that the Government ought to pause before they imposed a tax upon the Dissenters of this country or of Scotland for the support of a faith to ee . niete they did not belong, and which they did not believes in ; and this part of the sub ject he would take care to introduce to the notice of the House again at thy, proper time when the Bill should be introduced. Br't in the mean time he would giye the principle an the proposition his trinst cordial support, for he beloved it would have the effect of creating much good feeling amongst the Catholics of Ireland. LAW said he would have no hesitation in stating that it was his intention to oppose this proposition ; but he would like tO state his reasons for doing so. And at the same time that he did express his objection to such a measure, ho should also express the obli gation he felt tinder to the Right Honourable Ba ronet for the extreme candour of the course lie had pursued in giving a full and timely announcement of his intention to propose this measure ; and whatever objec tion he (Mr. Law) might have to the principle of the measure, neither he nor any one else opposed to the measure could say they had been taken, by surprise. There was alsO another Act of the Government, between the last and the present session, which afforded a clear indication of the intention of the Government not only in respect to this, but to other measures of a like nature, but of more extended and of greater importance. Ile alluded to the Commission in reference to the Roman Catholic Bequest Bill, in which he found the names of the Roman Catholic prelates, not only placed in juxta position with eminent divines of the Protestant Church, but a precedence allowed to the former over the latter, which gave to them, as it were, by anticipation, a position suporicr in rank and degree to Peers of the realm.—;Hear, hear.) But he did not complain of this : on the contrary, h© did think that the Right Hon. Baronet was entitled to claim credit fur the candour and honesty of the course he had stated his intention to pursue in reference to the Roman Catholic Church, and by which a certain amou nt of dero g ation to the Established Church was certain to follow. — (Hear, hear.) He felt it would be out of place for him to quarrel with any increased grant proposed to be given for the education of Roman Catholic priests in future ; but he could not but regard this proposition, whatever the intentions of the Government might be, as a precursor of other measures for she ultimate endowment of the Roman Catholic Church, and to place it in _te(iptoesairt,ionhemairt.l)l thelz,Eslit,alsdisibieecclatCisleiuricille sion and liberality b e tween a mere act of that n ature, and i c an ou c l o d iroe d rl i ad s ni c nd oV a er no resting-place for th is p ro p osed exts n such a result as he had sta'ed be feated would follow, g th r t e i a t t h r e eg b r a e d t , , a t f o te s r tat m e u h c e h ha a d n x c i o e m ty be e, to the compelled, lh determination, vit as a part of his bounden duty,not only to the Established Church, but to the sincerity and consistency of his own opinions, to offer his decided opposition to this proposed grant.—(Hear) For a considerable time his judgment was in the balance, while he saw that the Right Hon.- Baronet" proposed liberality to Maynooth was mixed up with a large scheme for a comprehensive system of aca demical education in Ireland ; but all doubt and uncertainty was removed from his mind when he heard the announcement that the increased grant to Maynooth was to be a separate and distinct proposition. He (Mr. Law) hoped it would not be supposed that he meant to impute any but the purest and most exalted motives to the Government in adopting this course ; neither did he feel that, though he differed from the Government upon this question, he should feel called upon to withdraw his general confidence from that Government which, for the last ten years, he had reposed in them—(Hear, hear)—and, in return, he claimed only the same charitable construction for his motives that he conceded to others ; and that, therefore, the sincerity of his views ought not to be questioned when he said ho felt confidence in this, the best Government that this country ever possessed since the passing of the Reform Act.—(Ministerial cheers.) He did very much regret that the Right Honourable Baronet had not deemed it expedient to develop his scheme for academical edu cation in Ireland. If he had done so, and made it a universal increase of general education for all creeds and classes of the community, instead of making May nooth College an exclusive seminary for the education of Roman Catholic priests, he would have deprived this measure of much of the mischief which he (Mr. Law) believed would attend it in its present shape. With re gard to the question of academical education, he begged of the Right Hon. Baronet, and the House, to recollect that there was at present Trinity College, at Dublin, in which Roman Catholics were freely admitted, and had open to them, if they chose to take advantage of it, all the honours of that University. But in the College of Maynooth there was now presented one of the grossest anomalies ever exhibited in any establish ment instituted for such purposes. It was true that this was a boon which had been granted by the Govern ment of this country for the institution of Maynooth College, and it was established for the purpose of afford ing education to Roman Catholic priests, and thereby prevent them from resorting to foreign countries for such, and imbibing with it revolutionary principles, or sentiments inimical to the Government of their own country.— (Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Mi nisterial benches.) He would not attempt to follow the arguments of the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford, but he was willing to admit the truth of the assertion, that in the year 1795, and at different periods since than, several Acts were passed for the endowment and main tenance of this establishment, but he begged to remind the House that these Acts invariably limited the period over which this grant was to extend to twenty years, which had long since expired, though of course subse quent enactments had amplified the time. However, if he could persuade himself that this was an honourable engagement which the Government ought to feel bound to fulfil, he would be the last to oppose it, but he did not feel that the Government were at all called upon either to extend the grant to Maynooth or to continue it. But there was a great difference between extending their grant and continuing it at a fixed sum. This, he was aware, would be met by the assertion that the fixed sum was not sufficient. He could not deny the fair spirit in which this proposition had been made; and he could not doubt the purity of the intention of those who had proposed it. If it was the determination of the House that the grant to Maynooth should continue, then he thought it was desirable that the annual discussion on this question should be discontinued. Feelirg satisfied, however, that this permanent grant would involve the destruction of the fundamental article of the Union, and at no distant period that it would destroy that portion of the united Irish and English Church in 'relat', he should feel it his duty, as they were not to be permitted to make the annual grant without being told that they conceded the principle of a permanent obligation, he for one should oppose the measure, the effect of which was—first to increase the grant, to render it per petual and national by Act of Parliament, and through that grant and through that admission of principle, ulti mately to destroy the united English and Irish Church.—(Hear, hear.) • Mr. BELLEW thought that the majority of the ob servations of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down were quite irrelevant to the subject under discussion. They had heard from the Hon. Member for Oxford, who might be considered the Coryphams of the party most opposed to this grant, and from the Hon. Member for Kent, much about contributing to a system of idolatry by giving the grant to Maynooth. He did not think that many would be found to carry out to their full extent the principles of those who opposed the present measure, and neither the force of their argu ments nor the charity of their sentiments Made up for their numbers. What did he see lately in a Dublin paper? He would read an extract to the House—" The policy of Sir Robert Peel is to declare war against Jesus Christ. That the devil entered into his policy was as manifest as if the inspired historians recorded the Net." —(Laughter.) There was a petition presented that night from Trinity College, which he thought might be better employed. After stating in that petition that they heard with . regret of the measures about to be adopted by the Government, they said that it was unwise to endow the Catholic religion, which was opposed to revealed thitii. Let them act on that principle, and persecution would be the result.—(Hear, hear.) Toleration would be but a matter of degree. The Inquisition, the Dragonades of Louis XIV., and the penal statutes of William and Anne would be justified.—(Hear, hear.) Why, lately, when the Dissenters' Chapel Bill was before Paellament, a prelate of the Protestant Church opposed it, because Unitarianism was opposed to the land. And was there so much uniformity in that House to justify any of thetti in saying what was and what was rot right in religions matters ? There were members of the Established Church who were divided between Calvinism and Catho licity. There were me:ill:Mrs of the Calvinistic Church, who were divided between Calvinism and Armenianism. There was the Church of Scotland, divide d not only iti discipline but in doctrine, he believed% And why should it not be so? It was the great boast of the Proteittipt churches that the Bible, and the Bible alone, Was their felt. gion. But it was hard that the gewittlen who opposed this measure, - who claimed the principle of a free interpreta tion, should also claim the advantage of authority by establishing what was right and wronse e anti whet +. 4 .1*5.- trines were alone worthy of censiderailoil o the State.. The-time had gene by *Lett such a principle could be acted upon. They got Canada in 1774, and, there the Catholic religion was endowed. Wtseii by VfieW ni•l'liS they had extended their eolOnite, Spanish Trinidad and Dutch Denierars. Were equally welcome, and the mainte nance of the Catholic religion was extended to the colo nies. There was not one among the forty-one eoloeies which they possessed, in which the pr.o,-Ail. , , 1 , 01,1 , ,,, was not supported by this gettititije In fgewfoundland the Catholics sliereA in the endowment of the State, in a very small and inadequate degree, indeed, but still it was endowed. Then, at home, they supported the chaplain of the Irish military regiment% the Aapi l in of the gaols were supported anti thnse Who offfiated ill workhouses, and that Was a strAnger Ca - ss; 111ecAk..c..% the payment was in prepolstien to thti *ant's done, and the Catholic chaplain hitvikig, or course, more to do, were paid more thikie the Protestant chaplains. If then things were done when bigotry was strong and ,roblist, hew absurd to object to it at the prtstnt Ilipb. Tll4 htiti about 200 or 300 olerivrti C . 41 4 ..n6tVd Cal their mili tary regim en t s inittlOki - y atia in their colonies, and in their workleoliseS, who had received money for the dis charge of their duties. Why, then, should they object tig the payment of 30,0001, for their educatien in histi t ‘dclthr The original endowment of that Colieffi wit tile re sult of a cold policy. At tbii thin the College was endowed there Wasi O. great dread of what were called Vrnikeli principles, and being afraid that if those who were intended for the Roman Mit* Chuith would be inoculated with those principles it thby Wee educated abroad, the Cellete Or Irt4nstlit, i WO eii• dowed, but hi the nidst tiii4ratiN spirit, as the wretched grant which ikf - a4 ettth proved.—(Hear, hear.) The n e t/ sleet Of persons at present maintained at May tinv.sst,h was 250, and there were about 200 educated else where in Ireland and abroad. Now, it wteaslent tliel in a question like the present the f. 4 ..title should be every thing or nothing.. Taro must be a great national ob ject its vise*, or this subject would not be considered at nil. He would not enter into theological details, because t f he considered that House was a most improper late ttl enter into a discussion of theology! bttt lie cop ' d irter the Right Hon. Gentleman who spokbAast; apd t ejtoth others llitaught e m bewralitofoutheaoyutigihtilthht:anttiosVoeittsitY dr Ukfetil% Atte. all heeklSeiviligdeenkccecegdili.negnly before bad was the Commission of 1825 by the Professor of Moral and Do i g. made Theology. If those H on . G ent l emen r e a d hie evidence, they would find that there was nothing taught at Maynooth which was not taught throughout the lat ioey etry e erroneous priests H oorfunilerskrseetpehl :otr i nho m sudeod ; ornsenawsasf opini on it impressio n whole Catholic world ; that the dogmas of Maynooth were the dogmas of the Sorbonne, and were the same which were taught to the 120,000,000 of human beings who composed the Catholic world. There seemed to be scraping c s rogpr o efaooi i pni n ni ietitnth f e. bg a na y v dt o . Teu u dsph r of aHafgote, asr ucwttgicihloohreeueu sagacious scantya,m,rr Raman manel a l aa O nd, r n n at e a , • E sa d i said Catholicu n thatfl thosepriesthood, education in Ireland as the penal -laws permitted them to obtain, they went to the continent, and, after acquiring a little theology, they 'came - back,- without any solid knowledge, and ill-disposed towards this country. The Samß eminent person, in r e f erence t o an exclusive establishment for the clergy, to which objections had been urged that night, said that, in providing education fur any body of men, they ought seriously to consider the particular functions they weleintended to discharge; that the authorities of the Roman Catholic religion, and the celibacy required of its priesthood, rendered it. undesirable that they should be educated in common with others intended for worldly occupations. He (Mr. Bellew) did not think it would be right of him to sit down without expressing his - gratitude to the Right Hen. Baronet for the manner in which he hal brought it forward, and next to the measure itself, for the language he used.—(Cheers.) The Right lion. Gentleman brought it forward in a liberal and confiding spirit, and he believed and trusted it would be received in Ireland in :a similar spirit. The Right Honourable Baronet had !,not used a single expression to detract from the grace and favour of . the measure. lie hoped that as the Right lion. Bar onet bad been the means of carrying Catholic Emancipation, it was yet re served for him to link together the two countries in the bond of mutual friendship. He -saw many occurrences taking place which led him to hope that though unfortu nately there, was at present in Ireland considerable agi tation, still there was every day a better feeling spring ing up there by which the education board, the pro mised measure of academical education, and this Bill showed the Right lion. Baronet was determined to .ciliate the the Irish Catholics, and no party feelings would prevert him from expressing his gratitude to the Right Hon. Gentleman, and he would further say, and he wished he only gave utterance to the feelings of the Roman Catholic people of Ireland, when he said that such measures had their right good wishes.—(Cheers) Lord SANDON hoped the House would excuse him for saying a few words in consequence of the position be was placed in. He looked at this question as one of compact, and, as he had already stated, it should have his hearty support.—(Hear, hear.) That compact should be carried out in that large and liberal sense by which intercourse between the two countries should be guided. 1 , He agreed with his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Inglis) that there was nothing in the Act of Union w hich affected this grant one way or the other, but in the discussions which took place on the question in 180 8, s h or tly after the union, in which the men who carried the union were en gaged, the propriety of this grant was distinctly recog nised. Then there was the lapse of time, fifty years of unbroken continuance of this grant. If they had en dowed a college in Canada fifty years ago, would they withdraw that allowance now? They would not. Then why treat Ireland differently ? Next they sho uld re member the circumstances under which the grant was made. England was then involved in a continental war, and nearly all the nations of Europe were leagued against her ; and in order to obtain the' hearty co-operation of the Irish people, they promised to endow Maynooth.— (Hear, hear.) Ought they now, after fifty years, to violate that engagement. Succeeding Governments and Parliaments —Whig and Tory—had all agreed to this allowance, and why should a less liberal feeling now prevail ?—(llear, hear.) With respect to his own feel ings, he owned he was influenced by other motives than those of a compact. He had always voted in favour of the claims of the Catholics —he had no conscientious scruples. They should not treat Ireland on different principles from the colonies. They passed Acts of Par liament making provision for Roman Catholic ministers in the colonies, and for chaplains of gaols and workhouses p i eces t he whole machinery of society. must t u h s o t p me a , ll an t d o if they were no w to a ct otherwise, they There were nearly 7,000,000 of Catholics in Ireland, and it was we who put them into the condition of suppliants. —(Hear, hear.) We seized upon the Church property in Ireland. and gave the people of that country no equi valent.—(Hear, hear.) Without an y change in their religion, we took their property from them.—(Hear, hear.) These facts could not be overlooked. This was not a simple question of endowment ; it was one of retribution.—(Renewed cries of " Hear, hear.") He repeated, the prope rt y of the Roman Catholics in Ireland was extorted from them, and as England had made compensation to other countries, why not compen sate the Irish people? He admitted the claims of our Roman Catholic fellow -subjects to civil privileges, and we should endow them with the means of educating their clergy. Taking all these things into consideration he thought that any opposition to this measure would be worse than useless. Unless the House were prepared to go back through the whole course of fifty years, they the Right Honourable Baronet must assent to the grant which the Right llonourable Baronet had proposed. If they would but look at theyicture drawn by could not but assent, in his opinion, to the propo sition which had been laid before them. The main con sideration was, whether there should be a removal of the restrictions on the education of those who were to he the spiritual instructors of the members of the Roman Catholic church, and whether they should remain in a comparative want of the necessary elements of their utility, or whether they should be instructed in all the elements of general literature. He, for his part, did entire not think that there was any alternative between an disruption of the principles on which the Government of the country had been conducted and the acceding to the grant which the Right lion. Baronet had proposed. It affected no principle whether the grant proposed was 9,000/. or 20.0001, for the principle was the same, and his Right Ilon. Friend was equally justified in proposing the grant, which had for a series of years been made be fore he came into office, or a larger gran: for the more perfect education of the Irish ecclesiastical members of the Church of Rome. This grant was simply en en largement of the usual grant., and it was no affection of the principle that the giant was enlarged, and in the present circumstances he saw no alternative between going back and acceding to the proposition which had been laid before the House. To go back was evidently impossible ; and, therefore, there was no other alterna tive than to accede to the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend. If they would refer to the case of Canada, it was evident that they must either withdraw from the population of that colony the means which they had granted for the religious education of the people, or carry out the same principle with regard to Ireland ; and he thought that the mere mention of that instance ought to be a sufficient warning to those who opposed this grant. And deeply as he regretted refusing to act with those who had been his coadjutors for many years, yet he could not, in the present case, h es itate to support the motion of his Right Hon. Itriend, Mr. PLUMPTRE said that he had been lately deeply engaged in an anxious investigation of this subject, and he was now fully convinced that the opinion which he had expressed on the first day of the session, that the announcement the flight Hori. Btronet had made at the end of the session svoUld Ocite do Ordinary sensa tion, and he now believed that that sensation would be increased both in extent and intensity, when the inten tions of the Right Hon. Baronet were made known throughout the country. He believed that he should re ceire ample eNdit fur tho assertion thet any dp a podition to her Majesty's present dovertime nt was to ha ar ceedingly painful, but of the measure which had been in troduced on this occasion he must express his most decided disapproval, for he must Confess that it exceeded his ittost enlarged Apeetatioas.--(Laughter)—and to which the objections or his Hon. friend (Sir. It Inglis) vvere, he thought; unanswerable ; but there were Other clifisi deratiotis which ought to be taken into accoUnt. lie had, the other night, presented a pt:tition from the Arthderton of Backinghani pd ne t ti c. l 9 r ,gy . (Laughter.) Was thii a bla§:Zl whOse opinions kin teel "' " I 'e iiiiwtirthy of con.ideration ?—(ltear; hear. ) They had object e d mos t strentiouSly to this. Measure. — t this ,He 'itir. Phitiipttej did ildt Think tha was a blase el' inctividlials tote teglected; and he would ask her Majesty's Government whether the rejection of their claim to eonSidertition would rt . the Govern tient% illith i' e spi e gi t ii thi goiitttrb ino tint q hotter position than that in W hich they now stbod? What was the language of the pet itions presentbd. tai the House on thisquestion ? They NV ete AtrenucluslY op posed, to thia MA-litel 'rho said that i provisien to la Churah of 'Rome was a provision to propagate idola try. They pronounced the doctrines of the Church of flume idolatry; and thoir kilew I,liit the di4lea.kire Of C 7 .61 Vl ' lai i niotidniii;ed rigaiiilt iii(iitii4 - • 'rii l f‘i 4 4 3 the opinion of the great errijority of tture who had flooded that House with their petitions. They had expressed a decided opinion upon the subject, and he (Mr. Plumptre) would say, that it' they passed this measure they might e:tpect ties. Vvine i itdito,ettt ntidtt ; the t i 6 ttntr. The git'at f•aajokii l y of the Protestants of this country were influenced by this opinion, and he asked whether the House was right in sitting that night to insult the people —he should not; perhaps, sa.,y insult —but he would Ask if the House Would gage the fe'.,.ood eifininti of the ,peoplh Of Etinehincif ' NV Yi etBifid theY tineashre as a sked if the House w be o i l l t i l e ct v nciught tli.e eitlieaties, almost the alarin; . of the people of England? He believed that the t h ew el: e s li s e:— /Te fU ry r tlrieeea-d,hyadtloetathcceeirdesento bett ,little fcli Aliii ethi6siiiin--: disrespect the _petitionliosf /lie lafge body Of her itiat. little fur this boon Wnich jesty's subierts.? e, ti'lt! Fillmiltr.e) Roitiah Catholics t t i l igntA iii ii e d is ti ed cat ti d t them. If they wished to pander to the whims and hu the Government mours of the 'Roman Cathelice, then let them pests this treeaeeare rioiii4 ,tll4 Antitit Oat if thli ieiiiifrie :4e4 tiatAd they 'would not be urged to further conheisions? He felt pained at being obliged to oppose her Majesty's Government, but b also Nit bound in tiiincipl t 8 le so. ? Lord I. RUStitlit , . 04d that fid bile *out call into ituestio dita piii*Oer# and strung fell ions feeling whiCh *date" tlie Honi Goitlep4 yvll9 liad, ilist ...;.at dowb. lie prudent, L , lilt did hot think that it would be %Vigo of prudent, after the lapse of fifty years, to stop suddenly and declare against any further grant for the education of the Roman Catholic priesthood, but at the same time if they found that grant was misobievotis tot ie ceetuittnitY; if thq foUrid 0. tigiiilibittit reason for its .oikontinuance, if they found that instead of being educated for ministers of reliion, the students of May nooth were brought up as coeductors of rebellion, then it would be equally wise and politic of the House to ' withheld this grant. ~This would tin A sufficient reason *hy the grant should hot he Contiiiiied tti MaYntotlii sllt if; oil Ui b t i t h e r haft.d, it *el'e at mitten and Aimed 13Y it riiddrity or that house, that a grant of the sum of 9,0001. and DO more oughtallowed for the sub sistence of the College of Maynooth, no religious setuples could. be alleged against the increase of OHO rant OP . 6 1610 s o t , 0, 1 thotatit Mat all the appeals whim bad been wade to the religious prejudices of this o:iuntry were beside the question.—(Hear, hear.) It' the Gentlemen who opposed the present propositional ; Qi'POsed the grata pf 9,000):,he might be willing tOiit ilOsit einiej e testey, tint It littd been proved that the means of instruction were not sufficient—that there was not a sufficient ,provision for the decent comfort of the ;1 t. Pups—Lat the instructors were not adequately paid—then there was no room for the interference of religious principles against the vote. —(Hear, hear.) lie could very well understand why re ligious scruples should interfere to prevent a Member of that House from agreeing to any vote whatever for Maynooth College;' but no Member, who had consented to the vote in any shape, could allege religious scruples as a reason for denying incm ased comforts to the s tudents or increased pay to the ill-paid professors. — {Hear, hear.) Those who 'be4 agreed to the previous votes of 9,0001. had no ground for pretending their re ligious scruples as an objection to an increase of 17,0001. The religious objection was as great to 9,0001. as 26,0001.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He thought it was almost impossible to discuss in that House the religious feeling which the Hon. Gentleman oppo site had said prevailed against the encouragement of the Roman Catholic religion as a system of idolatry. If the persons who entertained that feeling came forward to show that their own religious feelings would ba in terfered with, these statements might have some weight. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Liver pool had truly said, that the great majority of the people of Ireland adhered to the faith of the most ancient branch of the Christian Church, and that no other spiritual teachers but the priests of that branch could supply religious instruction to that people.— (Hear, hear.) He concurred with the Noble Lord and he believed that the improved instruction of the Roman Catholic priests would enable them to make the people as it had made them—better than they would otherwise have been.—(Hear.) He would not deny that he should prefer that the majority of the people of Ire land had adopted the prlnefe ' lee of the Reformation.. But he must take them as they were. They had not changed their faith, when the people of England did so. —(hear.) They had preferred to sacrifice the property of their Church, and the property of its adherents— ar)—and, therefore, he agreed with the Noble Lord opposite, that the proposed measure was one of restitution, not of gratuity. He thought that the Right Hon. Baronet had shown in his speech good grounds for the increase ; and he was glad to infer from that speech that further concession was intended. He would, therefore, give his vote cordially for the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He would not now go into a discussion of the proposition given notice of by his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield. But he would say, that in the course of this discussion, strong and in controvertible arguments bad been adduced in favour of an endowment fur the Catholic clergy in Ireland. — (Hear.) He would not then go into a discussion of the voluntary system; but he could not allow the debate to pass without saying that he thought the spiritual in structors of the Irish people ought to be paid by the State.—(Hear, hear.) He did not wish every one to be misled by what he stated. But he thought that there was nothing in the nature of the Government proposi tion of that night, which could afford a reason for opposing it to those who for twenty years had supported the grant of 9,000/ ; He concurred with the petitions which had been pre• sented against the grant in thinking it was a step towards a further and more comprehensive measure ; but upon that very ground he supported the proposition of the Government. He could not altogether refrain from re ferring to the opposition which had been given in past years to measures favourable to the rights and calculated to improve the condition of the people of Ireland. He deeply regretted that there was not even now existing that harmony, that good feeling, that concord between the people of England and the people of Ireland, which they all ought to desire. He regretted to see that when a popular leader entered a town in Ireland to propose a repeal of the union, which in the opinion of the majority of that House would be followed, at no distant period, by a separation of the two countries, he was attended by 30,000 or -40,000 people, and that loud acclamations fol lowed at his heels. In the last twenty years there had been too much disposition in this country to inveigh against the religion which the people of Ireland pro fessed and to upbraid them in coarse and contumelious terms. He did not think that men who came forward in 1825 and said they would never get up an agitation for the repeal of the Union, or seek a separation between the two countries, if the Catholic Emancipation Act were carried, would have failed to keep their word, if they had not had good cause for breaking it. These men would have stood to their engagements had all gone on right, and there would have no more been inquiry now into the cause of agitation in Ireland, than they would have been talking about agitation in Yorkshire or Middlesex. But he trusted the Government of the present day were about to abandon all former political conflicts, and about to enter upon a wiser and a more generous policy, which should hereafter lead to the benefit of the people of Ireland, and lead to a better feeling between the people of the two 'countries. Many of the Roman Catholics of Ireland were as distinguished for worth and humanity, as they wero for talents and learning. No other part of the Christian Church pro duced men so famous for their piety, and so distin guished for their excellence of character. He said he hoped the people of Ireland would hereafter feel and unite with the people of England. They should feel that they were ready to do them justice—that they were not led by any narrow projects—that they were not led—he trusted the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last would not think that he meant to be personal—by a spirit of religious bigotry, to refuse that which was justice to them, and justice to their suffering country. He trusted they would look to this measure not as a final measure, but as one of a series of measures by which the British Parliament hoped to unite the two countries in enduring bonds.—(The Noble Lord resumed' his seat, amidst loud cheers ) Colonel Sibthorp and Mr. Stewart Wortley rose together, to address the House, There were loud cries for Colonel Sibthorp; but the Hon. and Gallant Member gave way. Mr. S. WORTLEY was anxious to take an early op • portunity of addressing the Rouge, and explaining the reasons which induced him to feel that it was his duty to support the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet. Although he could not admit that there was any literal contract for continuing or increasing this grant, he had a strong impression that there was a moral engagement upon this subject which persuaded him this institution was deserving the suport of Parliament. They were answered first of all by the Hon. Member for Kent, that on conscientious grounds they should not make the grant; but though he (Mr. S. Wortley) felt the deepest, and professed the strongest, attachment to the Church to which he belonged, yet he did not believe it inconsistent with that attachment to concur in the pro posal made by the Right Hon. Baronet. The Ho nourable Member for Oxford used an argument which amounted to this—that, as far as the State is concerned, it should rather see the people of Ireland infidels or atheists, or left to their own choice in religious matters, than see them Roman Catholics. It was their business, however, to recognise the responsibilities that were imposed upon them by the State. He himself felt that responsibility sufficiently strong to compel him to support the proposals of the Right Hon. Baronet. Colonel SIBTHORP here rose to address the House, but, in conseqttence 'of loud cries of " Sit down," and " Divide," was obliged to resume his seat. Mr. C. BRUCE, who was frequently interrupted by cries of " Divide," said he hoped they would not think it unreasonable in him to address the House at so late an htitif; llift As 116 had been to fortunate as to catch the Speaker's eye, he Would not omit saying that he found with great regret that this motioff WM brought forward and supported by those who, on former occasions, op posed the further increase of the grant. They were now bringing forward a motion which would be con sibred by many of their supporters, both in side and Outside tit ; did douse; 113 a heavy blow to Protestantism i n irelatid.-=(tiear s hear.) It was with deep regret that he found himself compelled to curie to a conclusion which would cause him to vote in opposition te the tioternment on this occasion. It ap penred td hire that the Ministers of the Crown were not acting inj antiordanne with these Principles which should regulate their &linnet tip Ministnrs: lie could not regard the measure, as it was broug ht forstad. its in ateotdance with their position.—(Loud cries of "Divide, divide.") The orqwp was still a Protestant Crown, it was held on the condition d' its PtVtestantisna, and he could not see how it wits consistent for gini.ters Of that Crown to pro- Pose ti, medstirt hating for its object the endoWtiderit of a priesthood Who would eVer reel htistility W the l i rotestant religion, and who would, so 10ug at they were sincere, and he believed them to be sincere; eeek not only to discourage but to subvert Protestantism. izzttg ettnltSelled to say he could not think that the Right hon. taroilet. yr as ut ill ,Ittetifteal, in adopting this course, because he took an active part iii a roots are of a nature somewhat similar some time ago, he meant the Catholic Relief Bill.—(Loud cries of " Divide, divide;".enl." quee,tion," from all parts of the House.) In that latter: measure ie (Mr; C. I4 , .rtre) took an active part, though not then in Parliament, oeaiio he r'as al ways in favour of toleration.—(Renewed cries of " Divide.") But he did not think that the concessions the fletholic Relief Bill at all called upon the House for such a measure as that at present proposed.—(Cries of " question, question;" Th e r e fore he would say that this prOPositiort iitiolfed a tiolatitiii of principle which should be guarded against. At this late hour 64 the flight he would not further trespass on the time of the House. —(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") But he would say he would support app measure involving a system of general edueat do re i; tile hole population. Colonel SIBTIIORP would not otile;iiPY lli Holies for more than two or three minutes. He hoped that in future stages of the Bill he might be more fortunate in catching die StinoiPet.'4 ei*e than he had been that evening. He had invariably opposed the giint to 0.16 College a pf Maynooth, with no unchristian feeling towa rds that Collegt4 13th from a sense of duty to that religion of which he owned hitne self tin tin*orthy trierrtber.—(L aug hter.) Much had been said abed thn fe4itttfloti Of property, but how Wald the Noble ~ Lord Oppbsite like hie family to gm ih3 alb He4fdid pripefty; WWI origitially belonged to the Catholics of I.llls 7—(fidughter.) He would not have been surprised if this measure had been brought forward by the Noble Lord opposite, but he was disgusted at its having been proposed by a Pro-. testant Mipiateie tine t edudated at Oxford, too—some tiiiie tlie: /01iihei for tigord; tut be thanked (Mord hat he was no longer sd.--=:(tiatightbr.l Tti this . ettettstire of the Government he ( Col. Sibthorp) stiefild &ATE itt every stage his unqualified opposition. He would not at =et hour of the night discuss the measure, but he would re tereklllniself for a future occesion. Upon every stage Of it lie thia!detiestable measure —detests le in every light and in every abapeeeeaS; hear.) _ Mr. SHELL rose amidst loud cries of" d tid . ' and " adjourn, adjourn." He said that only one Irish man had addressed the House during thel.preseAnt Arid thought he had a kind of tn. e.—( par tial cry of L ActiouPe was rifised, followed by a more in which Sir rt. Peel and Sir J. general. one of " Go on," i atisa lly to join.) lie felt at Graham were observed amp i that hour of the night hat it was too ate to go on.— co ra o; no ; ago on," and " adjourn.') He found it difficult to go on at that hour, but if it was the pleasure of the House, though he was in a state of health which made it difficult for him to go on, he would pro ceed.—(" Go on, "go on," and "adjourn," "adjourn.") He certainly w ould yield to the injunctions of the majo rity,tand would " go on."—(Cheers.) And when he said he would go on, the House would remember that it was his fatality to be compelled to " go on " at such an hour. He gave his entire—his unqualified approbation to the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and he thought that measure was, if possible, enhanced in value by the spirit with which it was pro pounded.—(Loud cheers.) He had no doubt that one i