The Sun. — London, England, 1803-07-14 00:00:00

try, stood for to-mortow, but he was sorry it would ' not be in his power to bring ,it forward then, .and theraore he was under the necessity of postponing it until Monday next, Mr. PITT lose instantly and said, he could not resist the impulse he felt, to express an earnest hope that there would not be the least delay in bringing forward that very interesting and impottatit sub jed. :.Irhe did not , arge• his opinion sooner upon thetoitatter, it Was not became he did not feel the. necesssity of promptness, but because notice ,had beets given of its being about to be brought for. ward soon; anti the House would do him the jus tice to believe, that nothing but the .eonfident,ex peetatiort, as well hope, which he had for Med. and eneouraged irr• his tiSvn mind from day to day, that such a mewittre as that . which lust! .been now roentipoed.;by hk . Right Yriend, would have been brought for bv . GLOvernment, had restr ii n . ed him, and that now for, a considerable time, even as ;private man, :from sUbmitthAt to the House hisitrt. Irfed.thoughts• on that sullied. He was sensible ie'little i t s was in his power to suggest any thing-on iihichite_cOuld justly say that he had completely satisfied himself upon that must important subjed still-less:ll4l+re wish to . bring it forward himself, (Or independent of the •importanee of the objed, fie had a great tlesire,„its.the, lioese would easily imagire, thavattch rt I»erlSUri ' Should ot ib iitatc, where it w a s, merit eonstiottional it biNtlid, and Wiiere Could origir'iete with the most advantage, with His Majesty's Executive Government : but in this there . should, be no delay. Ile was as ready' as any man tould be to elloWy . and. 'the :House world be ready to allow, the great weight and pressure of the en gagements of those who sat tin the seat below him. ,He knew the labour of their employment .had long b , !en very great, and he knew that their task had been much iccreased of late, .but this was a moment when not an instant of time should be Wit, wherrwe expeded the mired of every itulividual, io - the.Kongdom to rise to a level with the necessity that called for it s ex . ettioo-- . -we had now a duple call for edivity, and for the etfertion of every nerve in the common SCCIJ. city.. ,The'llouse had aclouble'call to make--upon, lis Majesty', Ministers to be adive to theutmost Uf their power, and on .the People to support the measuresµ hieh the wisdom of Parliament may rte.:. vice for thc general security. Ile was sure his Right Hqn. Friend (the S.OOKiTARY at, WAK) would riot mistake the motive-with which lie said this—,the ease was urgent., He could not have a better wit.. ness than his Right Hon.' Friend of the truth of that ttssertion, who had stated it already with eerriestness aed zeal, Celt great zeal him. e 1 f upon this subjea," -- - and he hoped he should ' stand excused with the house, and with his Coo n . .try for what he said, and also for not hiving therto obtruded ideas of his own upon a "matter so extremely serious and momentous, while he en. tertaineth the hOpe of its being taken up, ,asit should be, by, Government. He knew the energy, zeal, `and at livity of his Right l lon. Friend (the SECRE. 'TARRY at WAR) who gave this notice to.night, yet he could not help saying, that we had experienced more occasions than one of knowing and. of recol. luting that whateverdclay there titas on this side of the water, there was no delay-on tiro other ; no in. le rya!, no pnose, where umbition'wgs the motive; and where ambition and unrestrained power were combined, perpetual r4atlessneas and unlimited ac. 'tiviry were the efFeCt; in obedience to such ambi. lion. Under such' circumstances her-wits sure it could not be satisfaaory to that House, or to this Country, and what was still more important, it would not be 'Weir Vigorous measures were- not taken for its de. , fence, and brought forward with promptness. The CHANCELLOR . sf the, EXCHEQUER • that although there could riot exist ,anywhere . . dourbt of the necessity of prouipmess at the - , present - criticarconjuodure of affairs, of •the t tub of which none had a higher sense.' than tlaise who ecutTosed Majesty's. Government,. he could as. sure' the House that thit dear of the measure of ‘'vliich his Right Hon. friend continued his notice Until Monday, was the subjed of regret to his Aighr Hon, friend, -and to all His Majertry's , nesters, and ro none more sn than the individual 'who now had the honour of addressing the Chair. Yet he had the ,satisfaction to state, that prepare. tory to the bringing forward this measure, every rx erti6n was now making, not ohly in this but irny other points, not indeed to bring up the minds. of the people to a. level. with our situation, for, thank God, the minds of the-people were, up already, but to bring forward the Means - to' give to that mind a due direCtion, and to give consistency 1 0 t he t iro's of every individual in the Country. ut let it not be supposed that such a measure as 'this had not been in the contetnplation of his Right Friend /the SECR ATAXY tit WAR) and 'others of His Majesty's Government some time, .because it had not hitherto been brought before . . Parliament; a riteasure of that nature required much investigation •even before it was brought forward, And mightie. Lquite still more afterwards. It Might not to , be brOught forward -in a 'etude Or imperfect state ; it was too gigantic to'be so dealt with ; 'nor had it been delayed longer than the circumstances called for ; and he was in hope, that whin it was brought, forward, the House would he of opinion that the time and labour previously bestowed on it by Mi . .. nisters would not have been in vain. He hoped that in the end they would appear to have saved time by this conrse, because the..lest bnperfeet the measure might he when it Came forward, the l ess time would Parlianient have to employ in the con. sideration of it. .He would add to this, that Many other subjvCl4, admitting of ntr delay,• had tie. Mantled the attention of this Majesty's Ministers. .1-le knew that the public spitit of his Right Hon. Friend, and the zeal. he had for the - discharge 'of his duty, would not .suffer him to delay for an hour, unnecessarily, any measure which bad for its objet • the saletylof the,Country, nor was any imputation to be cast upon any of I.lis Majesty's Ministers on accotmt of negligence, for no such - negligence ex. isted. The Howo: knew, and the Country knew, that great exertions were now making, and that, addition to what were now making under the meaStiirti which Ministers' had proposed, anti Parlia. .inpur had Adopti d,,it was intended 'to brin g f orwar d another, which , would add greatly to - the military :tueans : of this Couritry„ but it .was a measure which irßlisrensably reoirett tomb. previous -pre-paration, and which, together with other business which ha 3 occupieti the attention of Ministers for the 14st ten days, it had been impossible to produce hithettq.; but he hopt%l that ultimately the time been already bestowed on the subjea was no; time misapplied, for . there would have bfrn-no adv.antage in, bringing a measure of this importance; .brf , re Parliament.tn a crude shape : it should be produced with all the dispatch which. it would admit 0f..., as was about to spetdc, when The SPEAKER obseiVed, there was no question ` . A p t' ptesent before the House, 'there was only a No. - tice, and it was not cp,nsistent with.ita.rules to de. bate anotice, It was undoubtedly in the power (,t ilowie to dispense with -any or with all , iti Rulers, hut he submitted the propriety of adhering to them in this instance t upon which the coaversa. tion drovt. TteCHANctr,LoR of the ExcttrQuEß moved the Order of the Day uvon the Income which was,. " ' that this Report he'now taken into further considers} ion." Mr. IV. SMITH said, he should not like to' go over again the grounds which he formerly , stated agaiost the gill now under consideration, irAose it teas amended in a Committee, and having considered the Bill as it 'now stood, and he trusted thit most Gentlemen in the House had considered it, he would 'say, he -had much objeCtion . to it. He thoight he, had a tight to consider this ,Bill as a theisure to which Ministers now' intended to call .on the House for its approbation. He admitted that it Might be to the advantage of the Country that it should be still considerably amended ; yet there were is some parts so objationahle, that he felt it his ditty to take the sense of the - flouse urns the question of. receiving the Report. In the hist place, the in eqtrality of the Tax *was very .objettionablei and • the objedions on that scare were not at all removed.' He must conteml,..that although Gentlemen in the Country had 140).1)ot:tours, generally speaking, at. teudant on great possessions, yet these were the Chief rewards they had for very laborious service' wider Government, and'he was of opinion that such should continue to be the rewards to' such hotionr 'able services, because any stipendiary system that could be adopted would have the can of diminish ing the respect due and always shewn to those who performed gratis many important duties to the Pub. lie; but yet they were Onerous, andin some mea. Sure diminished the comparative value of landed property, and therefore, althongh'he did not wish' to . go into the question 'of !Ailed prOperty much at large, he could not help nbservirg, that if the question of Equality was to be, considered, landed property ought to be made to pay less to an Jo. come Tax than some other species of propertY With regard to funded property, in the present con. dition of things, he• did not see that any objedion could reasonably be stated against, its bearing iti share of the burden in support of the State, and as pro. petty in the Funds' was payable without any 'deckle, tions, and as the holder of it olid nothing in that charader in support of the State, he thought that upon the prirciple of equality of taxation, that spe. cies of property ought to be taxed higher than land. eel property of the same amount, because Out of landed property there were many &donjons; and to' the possessinn of it were'ait.actied many laborious duties. 'So much upon the qttestion.orEneality of this tax, which was a considerable ohjeCtioo to . the present measure, because it provided no distindion. But his grand objedion to the measure Was, that if income arising from property was to he taxed at all so as to be made efficient, it Must beby . a species of Inquisition much mote intolerable than ail,y tax ' whatever, anti it. was'one 'of the evils of the to • which the present one owed its, origin, that this spe . cies of inquisiti on troublesome at it ,w a s, must be yearly renewed , lie had not the least objedion to raising'che money which 'this 'measure was Intended to raise.. It was to the means of raising it that he objected. He objeded to this mode of raising•the money, 'because it tend et l una v oidably to agiriste the passions, and t o depre s s' the spirit - of Aie 'pea. pie. He thought this measure produced . both 'these effeds at once. He thought it ten4eil to- agif:tie passions among the people which - th . e, wistlatis of the' Legislature should lull In sleep, and also , to lull to sleep and finally destroy that spirit among'the peck . ple 'which 'the wisdom of the Legislature should en deavour to keep up; that epirit by which English:. men had so ofteri exerted 4hemselves in their oWn. defence. It was his . opinion that such a measure as ibis, 4 : offered a good while ago, would not have been endured. The people would ' not have sub. witted to the Tax; . they wank' have risen against the measure ; he did not ;matt, have tiiien in arms, as they 'will now: against the external enemy, brit *mid have expressed their detestation of the Bill, so that any Minister would have given up all idea of bringing it 'forward. As a proof of this he observed that in the years 1793 and 9+, when the Newspapers were endeavouring to Idift' the spirit of the Country to resist the French , --they stated, that &the French were 'sue. cessful in their attempt, the first Measure they would'eoforee would .he such a measure. as this In_ came Bill ; afterwards, however, Parliament thoUght fit to adopt an Income Bill, and to Which,' he was ' . sorry to ,say, this Country was obliged to submit. ' 1 "1-le desired that any man who wished to consider this Bill should ask his neighbanr whether the in quisitorial power whiCh must lse given to Commis,. stoners who would have to att 'under this Bill, would not be very burthensome to thcmselVes, and intolerable to those on whom it was to operate.• The questions which Com Missioners would be under the necessity of putting to persons, he knew woold.he most vexatious. He knew that' questio ns when they were•put by officious impertinence, wereinore 'provoking than when they:were put unciet the au thotity of law, hut after nil they might tie rable even with the santtion of law, and every thing that was irritating to the'teelings áf men Ought to be avoided. He lqiew that attempts had been m u le, and.perhaps more might be Made, to avoid a great deal of this evil, hut this he was afraid co u ld not be done effectually , so as to do away the force of the objetlion which he had stated to the piinci. He did not pretend to say, that equality' of payment and a due enforcement of 'the principle of making every one contribute' in proportion to his was not .41 -thing much to be attended to, but he contended, that thileould not be.done with.; not such a disclosure taking place in the afrairs of nitaa, as would be quite intolerable. 'This he regarded aS objeCtiovhat.was alasnlinels insormauntable: - I: established An a intolerableaninciple;lh a'Tax as thi had never !fern at tempted hut with mojeration - even in arbitrary Countries. Under this Bill a set of Commissioners' omit be appointed, who would be like a host of Holy Faniiliara under the SPaniab and he mustbegleave not to be a Mem ber of it, nor an abettor of the principle. 'He had heard' it said by a Right Hon. Gentleman, that there was a • class of men whose means were very large, but scale of expenditure very small, and who ought o f course to be the farst objede of taxation, and that there was no way but this,. to ratlike them contribute their . share' to the State ; now with re gard to those' persons.. in trade,: against - Whom this . observation. was levelled,. they would not be affect. ed'hY this Bill In the manner the framers of the, Income Bill expetted ; for it was Most clear'that the burthen would, fall 'on the consumer, •and Gentle-. Men while they weft assenting to this Bill, under the idea that theyswete 'making Tradesmen pay, wren. in 19 cases but of 0 themselves, and all other can miners of the articles they bought of Tradesm:n, yeti - it'd be made to pay'it, and not only so, but to !ay a double and a • trebla tax, instead of paying the tuna itself, which they intended to 'impose on the trarer; so that Gentlemen when they thought they were voting motley out of the pocket of a' trader, they . werelioring thiuble and treble that amount otr their own ; and Gentlemen would find , this laid down.as theory in'all the 'labours of all the Writers opon'this Sublet}, and they *Cold always find it' • true in practice,' and for this reason no Matt:would sObjett biinselt to 'labour without .reasonable Com. pensation for it, and 'if he found his ,CXiVfICCS in.. Create by 'the *positions 'of Government, le would remunerate himself by laying a larger aprofit on the article in which he dealt. Ibis was 'laid down in all the books that had bee n wr i tten , in theory; and it was found to be the case in prattice, so that that part of the Income Bill which was intended to. affect Traders, would, generally speaking, fall, end fall double and treble-fold on the - Ctinsnmer of the articlei in which they dealt, He applied to the experience of Gentlemen who heard him, whether the duties on Houses and Shops, and on • various other subjects. of impost with ieferenee• to trade, had not produced* that effaCta. The supposed re. medy, for this was the competition which necessarily existed in all trade, but that' had not the effect which it was expetted .to produce. It might be said that Clatises might ,be introduced into the in the 'Committee,. but \ he apprehended; he this could not he remedied, an d f ur t hi s rea s on he should be against the further progress of this The next objaaiinnlie had to the' measure was, that it was extremely Complicated, and'yet, if the Bill was to 'be carried into effed, he was not aware hoW that 'inconvenience was to .be avoiUed ; hea - was aware that it could not. He was sure that as • to thelast Income Bill, nineteen out of twenty of the people never read it at all, and 'even bi those who did read it, nineteen-twentieths did not -understand it, nor indeed did the Legislature ap pear to have much knowledge on that score,' as ap. , peared by various alterations and antendthents which weir made .front time 10 time in that Bik's•orne of Which innetaintents had the effed of rentleririgAe - Bill unintelligible. This he regarded as no „slight inconvenience ; for it was a very inconvenielit thing that ahe:COuntry ashauhl be called upon to adappon a Legislative measure that was not understood:; nor was, that indeed wonderful when the Bill Was 1 t'6 pages, some of the cruises of avhich we re a t 'present repuenant.to each other. There were other objec. tions which might with justice be urged against this I3ill , Upon the principle of it, but these were the Trading Ones—that was to ifly, the Bill was an. just, becatise" unequal :'in its operation ; it was .vexatious and intolerable on account of the inquisi torial power necessarily given to';carry it into effect. It %Vat - Icw complicated to be un d erstoo d , for whichreasons 'freamtist take 'the sense of.,the House 'upon the .question of proceedingfurtber on this ; hilt a • if the' flonse should be of opinion the Bill shcaild'iO forward, such was his respect for the opinion , of the liouae,, that, he,thould think it big duty to aftend to the subject in detail, and to do every thing in'his power to Fender the Bill as palatable as , posssible to the, Public; thoughahe was of opinion that it never could.be rendered perkily, ao. • ' Mr. PITT said, he should not follow the Hon. Gentleman who had"spokelast, mach, in detail, nor say much, formucli need not be said on the various particulars of his objediona,, because they, were ob a tedions• levelled, not agaited any thin&in this Bill, but against another which preceded„ and against this Bill because he said it was taken' front that', and also against the new matter of the, present mea. sure, as far as' that ,went, The Hon. Gentleman Seemed, hoWever, to think that this Bill was better' than the former I ncome Bill 0, some particulars ; for he had saidi• that if it went :into a Committee. he should. at tend to it and endeavour to amend it ;aala thoughbe could not assent to any parr'of the for mer ,income Bill, he shoeld rejoice if that slinuld-be ultimately found to be the case : but the Hon. Gentle. man was not , aiinguine enough to expedsuocess, nor could he indeed exiled much success in his opPosi tion td" going into a Committee upon this- Bill, when le himself hadassented, and others who penally agreed With him, bad assented, and'had not only as. sented to, but enforced the principle of raisins a tarp portion of the Supplies 'within the y ear , a nd Parliament had,. Attest upon that principle ; he was not,. however, ',to' rest this point on the de cision of a former. PArliament, although he, was happy to find the temper and views of the Hon„Gentleman so much changed upon th e s ob. Jed, of deferenci and submission due', to the decision of Parliament; indeed we owed Much to the Enemy with whom. we T,lead to contend, for various advan atagee. they had been ,the means'of affording to us, one Of which was that, of opening the eyes of that Hon. Gentleman and some others, and of producing a general feeling of indignation against that Enemy, An quarters where it was 'not fele•before, and of 'rousing exertions against that Enemy. He was glad of that effect which had beenproduCed upon that I-lon. Gentleman and others, by the Common :Foe ; nor was that all,. for it had the drat of giv. ing a disposition to many Gentlemen who had for. rattly seemed to be much- n need of it. of a Conati- iutinnal confidence in 'the wisdom, an•.d submission to the power or Parliament. • For this we were in. ilebted to the Enemy: This sentittieOt of tlefereace and submission to Parliament was a patriotic semi (intent, he toped that sentiment Was general ; he did not say throughdut the Country, for happily.for us all, that tentiment existed always, but had often been disputed by those who had privilege of Parlia ent o a so and b others in .P9blicatiof pro e • gat atfiamiiii - Firirelirticiples of . our Conititution, and who had act ed upon a - dnarine Wkkkrotalm_vter • T:verse that which was. prOw fessed by the Pion., CkotteMini. But this was not all.: it was not only the . subjed of submission to the aurbority of Parliament in which the. Hon. Gen tle,man was chat;ged,4lor lie had expressed opinions upon the present occasion.-which be .had not fore merly entertained, The-Hon. Gentleman, however, in the-course of jlre klikOsion upon this Bill, - had referred •to various authorities,- : 'some of %vhulO were pettedly respedable; among ...whom was tis own naMe-sake,' and 'some of whom' could • .not treat of a Tax on Income without express , irig- a degree of horror. There was one of . iris name who w"n o t y catuirtiv - d i nor was yet quite so popular as some of theltlepArted sagesto whom he had refe r r e d, w h o h a d a l so treated a 'fax on ln. come as a dieasiftil"measure:; but the best at.4Vver, to these speculative objet4iOns was 'the fa&, that - the ',iconic l'ign'inst the principle' of which the Honourable gentleman had said 56 much, was atiortrzi at a time 'when - grett - tiesponttent#lttr. wiled in the rttniic mind ; when a gyeat glown was visible in the dispoAtion even of some, of the tutees . 1 remarkable 'for. their .firrunessl:aod their loyaltp-- when that gloom was industriously increased by the 1. exaggeratedstarements of our danger, by those who most obstruelcchhe - means proposed for °lnsecurity I it was at this time, and under these circumstances the income Bill was adopted,. and yet subsegnenr to that measure it was, that the despondency he spoke of was changed into confidence, that the gloom was dispelled, that the credit- of - the Country was ie. eratise4l..it-was after this Income Billiwas-adJptett. that the good fortune of this Country becanwsignal, notwithstandiog .certain disasters which, from Po' fahit'in us, attetided the W,4, and which had indeed put us into our present difficulty. It was after that Idcome Bill was adopted, that the. National Chirac. tee ant and exeytion.pf Great' Britain became most cote.j spicuous ;' a period when her strength- *as most -, rein:irkahle, her glory inost renowned. He was not.;, 'afraid of as.king„ whether there was, in the whole ot:;, : 60r history., any-per Odin Which the achievements': ,ofottrArtni . were - mores brilliant,' when' the aisdont and firtimess of Parliament was better di sp l a y e d, the patience, fortitude, - and . loyalty of , the people more remarkable, the Naval or Military : Charattcr ~ of the Nation highet in the opinion , of surrounding ' States. In a word, .he would ask, if there was a Pet - jot - Lilt the history of the world, to which an Englitliman would point . his. finger ',witli'siore pride and, sztisfaCtion, than the three years whiFh .:,.. followed unit Very' income Bill - ;. and yet this was -- 1' tlls.lpeastiegwhich the Hon. Gentkman had detcrib ed as one whiph.damped the ardour and diminished - the attachment of the people of this Country. lie - had reierredto the 'stated 'the Country d ur i n g tlic operatinn of that ilill,as , ati answer to the sp e culative sentiments, of . the Hon C; eill,in, few of W 1 . I' hic ,l _cill. were new;--flar the Hon. Gentlemanhad given the ,, House at: accouut of all the hardships and riteathul -• leverities o f the inqUisit s ion,,but as,. it ntas liketY (11 affeiA the trading- part of-eke. t eettintunity, the Hon.,: Gentlem an h a d .given . a. Very tiiiii`tulat .reason — , -I le represented this measure"as the ruin of the fortu ne .: of the objeets of it, andthat was to be accompanied ?-.. with all titatdreadful inniii4t ion "Utile host of Fa Illi• li.rrs and their engines 61 tortnre, ready to mutilate the lim,bs of their ,victims ;beet the faa wa;‘, according" tO 3he•ennclasi o 'n of the Hon. Gentletnao himself, the Bill would squeeze out of these traders, just no. 1 thing—that might pethaps, reconcile some post" ra the'Ta f t, and make them midi more temperate in their Opposition to it, than they would hav e been if'lliey,thought it would 'bear ktr.l upo n ". .thou ; • yet. , with him, that would be a very :serii)os opposition to the Tax, if he , thought it .Would have that tired; but lie apprehended that would.not he the case. As to the quot'ation3 tvliich the Hon' Gentleman had •made upon a fcirmeroecasion, froth ' _ So many authors, he apprehended the House w oiilo. •': not take them to becanclusive.against its own ex.. . 1 perience, - nor would arguments upon speculatioor • litw.ever ingenious, be very convincing against ex- 1 perienee ; • nor was the Hon. Gentleman. to-e%. • - i Pea rhat.conviaion . to follow his own arguments, when applied to others, ,more titan the arguments •i of others had formerly convieced him, that the H : ()Pinions lie had formed were erroneous, eveci, ally,as t he 1341 related to Traders,„ and , the lad , Ships which it was about to impose on Traders, the amount of which was, from the authority of the Honourable Gentletnan himself, . that the trader' WOUId44IICOW the whole of the imposition of) rite consumer. The Hon. Gentleman' had stated, Y. that all the bunks have said so. Mr. FITT s3i 3 t he had not - reati , all 'the books that ever were writ" ten, , and he ought tc) confess what he felt on char .subjett,. which was,. that he scarcely wished he hod i but lie : rather thought )1,1141t if he had, he should taut have, been able 'to remember them all. He Wit, : however, eead in §ome.of them, 'that a tat was ha" 'if it hada .parail operatiOn in reducing One.speeit'S of capital •rnort. than another. Now, there Wer e several sorts of application of capital : there well some who employed ,their capital in business, an' who Chose to a. 1,1 to , theeffeCt of it by, great labour , of, dick own ; there were . Uthers who chOse . c c ' employ their property in . a way in which.thete was not much labour,' but agood deal of : risk' and .they.•partook of. the nature of .a, Lottery--; . there were others who were content with 0 01 ' gains) provided I,lle pursuit was neither lain''' . - toos nor uncertain, There was another Clas s , . of -men wh‘o had a great deal of wealth,. who re' quired:a great deal of i l i t e tet to he produced:bY their wealth, anti with Perfed.security, themselve s , remarkable for a'great deal of laziness, who ha t{ some of ..the largest incomes with the teast exertion, and entirely withotit risk, and who received their :- reventteti - because the public faith was }fledged t° ,, . them. ' But the trite prineiple.of arriocome Bil l l ' ° took tobe, whether the income was in land,' wh ich % was the Levu nreearittne_ nnel where the influence:lan°