The Sun. — London, England, 1803-05-14 00:00:00

IMPERIAL R L EIV T. ROUSE OF PEERS.' ritfnAy, MAY 13. Co urrst.t, tvvre heard in cotetintitition relative to the Scotch A ope.d. the Company v. Ogilvie.—Further hearing adl urn: till - Nle+nciay. The v;:t1w; Bi ere tbri,Varded in their respcaive stages. The Nottingiiani Pill Went through 'a CoMmittee of the whole House. and was ordered to be repotted crt 10 0 0- day. 'Mr. Az.rat ^len I.R and others brought up the East India Company Volunteers' kill ; which. Was read a first time. Several other Bins. mostly of a private ruture, Were brought tip, by of her ,Genticipep. Their Lordships then proceeded to the Order of the Day, which respedied,a Discussion of the financial circutn , tanres of the Country. Lard KING rose pursuant to the notice be had giVen, oy state bin sentiments with.respeCi to this import:in! SobjeCi. Tie should not, he said, have Come forward, had any other Peer, more able and more Conversant on the subjca than himself, appear. ed inclined, at lend, in his mitres, sufficiently early to agitate the Discussion.- Their Lordships were aware, that a variety of,F*cial AccoUnts, some of a voluminous nature, were on their 'Lordship' : these were ordered, for the most part, on the MotitMs of it Noble Lord opposite to him ; but in what ke wasabout to submit to their Lordships' consideration, he should chic fly confine himself to those Accounts presented previous to the delivery of His . Majesty's Message, and 'from which too flattering deduetions had been made, with a view, no doubt, of raising the public confidence ; but un, der impressions of public duty, and with a view to evince to the Country its real situation, in point of Fitsarfee, felt it incumbent on him to examine with strictness and precision, and the results which' be should be able io make, he doubted nor, would' be of a very different nature, from the deduc tion to which he had alluded. The Noble Lord then proceeded to a detailed examination of those points of the ACcoants upon the Table, to which he said,• he should aired their Lordship' attention.— with respeet to, a part of these, his objet ieemed to point out some . great and important differences in the -modes of stating the" steads of Revenue, Ex. penditure, &T . . With a wiew to evince the necessity lof a subsrqueut,. detailed, and deliberate inquiry. F r om his view of these items, he argued that the different heads were in some iestances, as those of Income, Revenue, &c. over-rated ; in these items which regarded the expenditure and disbursements, under-rated. To establish these positions, his Lordship entered into a variety of calculations and details, which as they mostly consisted of comparative statements,' were the more complex a nd abstruse we therefore, under the apprehension of urtintentiOnahmis-statethent, shall not attempt to follow his Lordship. lie touched, but not Weightily, upo n the statements made by tile CuaNcELLoa of the Excl. e u F and entered • into some • calcula. tions tolsbew the erroneous tendency of part of his statements. He then adverted to what had fallen Aroma Noble Lord -opposite to him on a former respediog the general subje!ii - and contend. ed, that there 'could by no means be such an aggro. gate as a' sum exceeding t 6 millions, applicable to put iimc pnr i oses. In ; arguing this point his Loyd: ship sermett to say, that the'British•-and Irish Ex penditure were not sufficiently disciiminated.. tie rrtrtt commenters intro Om teat circumstances of - the Consolidated lona, and . the state of adual expenditure, and contended, instead of there exist ing a considerable surplus, as arguedori the'part of the Minister, there was a real deficit to a consider. Able amount, inasmuch as there remained, after a due and candid statement of the whole Supply and Ways and Means, a Sum of only 9,112, 000 h to toyer an expenditure of snore than i 6 Millions. He then took a view of the different ways in which the National Income could be equalized, one of which means, namely, an appropriation of the Sink ing Fund, be thought none could dare to propose. Drawing towards a conclusion, he. censured the system, particularly with roped to finance; pur. surd by Ministers; in concealing . from the Country its real State in that. tespeit, and holdins forth the hopes of seeing a. surplus, when in fad there existed an alarming deficit. Upon thekwhole- he deemed she general Subjeft well worthy the serious attention, and minute consideration of their Lordships, and in that view he should move for the appointment of i" a Committee fur the pun. p os e of ingairiog into the teal situation of the ttanceS Oche Country, and to report their opinion of the same to the House," On the Question being put, Lard A UCKL AND r; i ses and nan able and argu: menrative Speech, combated the positions of the N o bl e Lord who hail just sat down. In doing this, his.Lordshiii entered into a more detailed, as well as general view of the subject than the preceding speaker. He contended, that no satisfactory ground whatever had been laid down by his Lordship for the institu. don of such an inquiry. He took a comprehensiv e view of the } rinopal Financial disquisitions which bad taken place, since the accession of the late Administration to power, artd particularly dwelt u p on the proceedings of the Committee of 1786, and epchibited a regu;ar financial history of the country since, that period. With a vicw of bring. ing the subjta fully before the House, he had moved for the produCtion of a variety of documents, from a perusal of 42,bich any individual Peer could thoroughly satisfy himself there existed not the least necessity for the inquiry proposed by the Noble Lord. The statements with which-he pro. posed then td trouble their Lordships, on the parti. cular points in .discu3sion, were comparatively re. ducible to a small compass. He reminded their Lordships the discussion did not •originate with him. A Noble Earl opposite Was the first mover for accounts, but upon what bad been said, lie thought it his duty to state lois own sentiments, and to move fur additional docoments in order to bring the subjea duly before the House. He thought that instead o f t h ere b e i ng a considerable minus, as was asserted, be could evince there s% a. 4 a surplus of Letween 3 and 4. millions.—Tit endeavouring to sub. s , :ostiate this position, he contended that the Noble 1.,,rd opposite had calculated upon erroneous vlvunds ; the Irish part of the expenditure 1.4 d nothing to ale with his statement. lie - heads of the Revenue, and dw 'with some stress upon the article of ,he bounties paid on ac count of corn and rice, the .importme and extent of which never seemed to have been adequately con. shirred. He argued that every thing lA'tich occurred within the year, made part of the red income of that 'perioA, and in the aggregate et/led:tied, that * amount exceeded 34,34.i,0001. He then proceeded to the consideration of the consolidated fund, with • reaped: to which we understood his Lordship to say, there existed a true and. real surplus of more than seven millions. Recurring again to the reports of the Finanee , Committees, he observed the re. sults shetved the progressive increase of the Revenue, and the improved energies of the Coun try. He then 'exhibited a view of the number of Ships, Men, and Tons, employed at different periods in the Merchant Service, which abundantly proved, that the Commercial kept pace with the Financial Prosperity of the Country : and those in the last year he observed, were treble what they were in 1779. Adverting generally -to the National Ex. penditnre, his Lordship did not deem it incumbent on him, considering the view upon which he came forward, to dwell upon it in detail. He then al luded to the situation in which the Country was placed, particularly with respe& to its late Ad. versary, a Power which had nor, since the pacifi.. ,cation, manifested any genuine proofs of concilier tion towards us ; and observed, that it wouldhardly be recommended from any quarter, to reduce, the present Expenditure. Dwelling upon these con. siderat ions with much' force, ability and elfea, his Lordship at ncluded with stating his disapprobation of themotion. ;!11 ciCQ I II UV a COnSltlera I 3n a► tne i>> treren The Earl of MOIRA spOke in answer to what bad fallen froM the Noble Lord:Who spoke last, at some length : he complimented the Noble Lord who in. trodueed the subject, for the repeated display he Made of talents which would one day become highly. useful to his Country : be deprecated the mode of substituting a branch of the subjen, for the main points of it, and observed, that it was not so much on the details of the subjen, as on its final re sults, that the merits of the question depend ed. In Char view it was indifferent to him whe. ther . the Noble LOrd was in error I, 2, Of 3 He then entered into some calculations to prove -the non-existence of ,the surplus advanced by the Noble Lord on - former occasion. The accounts before the House, particUlarly those moved for by the Noble Lord, Were of a very voluminous nature, and in his mind, the subject required far. 'ther and deliberate inquiry..' LOrd AUCKL4NII just rose to explain, that the Noble Earl seemed to misconceive him ; a r part of what he adverted to, was by him only admitted for the sake of the argument. The Earl of MOIRA proceeded, and after con. tending that much of the financial statements on the put of Ministers -.vele unfimoded, adverted in some degree to their political cOoduet, of which as it tended to operate, particularly in a finan:. 6A point . of view, he spoke in- terms of disap. probation. He thought Parliament in these respects ought to an frankly with the Country, instead of Concealing its real 'situation, In the present, Stage of the business, and considering the voluminoUs ture of the accounts, even Members of that House could not become masters of the subject, still less she Pulac contended for the existence of an alarming deficit, and strongly recommended the adoption of his Nrible Friend's Motion. Lord GRENPILLE observed, that he should proceed to call their Lordship' attention to the sub. jea upon which the Noble Lord had grounded his Motion,.,though he, in some degree, differed.froni that Noble Lord as to what he had advanced;, his' objefl, however, in so coming forward, was not to place himself in opposition. to any of the Noble Lords who had delivered their sentiments, but im. pelled by considerations of public duty, tirshew, as tar as he was able, and which he thought was the bounden ,duty of all, to shew to the Country its true situation, by a fair - and manly statement of the circumstances under which it was placed. —That system of Concealment. which prevailed tilt) much of late, had been carried too , far, and partici). larly upon 'a sti!ied, the most interesting of all others to the Country. He thought, no Member of that or the other, House of Parlia. ment, had need to apologize for bringing -,forward a subjed of such vital importancefairly to the view of the country. There muat, however, be persons conscious of not having thus come forward to serve the'Country : but with respeti to Parliament gene rally, it was necessary they should open'the eyes of the Country, and particularly in such a momentuous crisis as the present, shew them their real situatiOn it ought to he made clear to the Country, w h et h er or not its finances were in that state, that there existed a large disposable surplus, or a real alarming deficiency. In contemplating the circumstance 'of a deficiency, it should be turther inquired into, whether there really existed a necessity of supply ing those deficiencies by that most ruinous of all financial measures, a system of peace loans He acknowledged the utilityof the various accounts which had been laid before the House; however, in the importaot, but perhaps rather general 'view which he then meant to take of the subjeCt, be• Was saved the trouble of adverting to them in detail ; a casual reference would be sufficient foi his purpose. Those which he should have occasion . to refer 'to were, of, unquestionable authenticity, being signed by the Secretary of the Treasury, and, the results of these, lie meant to contrast with the statements made-by the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER himself, taken from a publication issued by authority into the world, and With a vie* to the full informa tion of the Public; and statements whiCh he could not refrain from olderving, had been fatally, to a certain degree, credited and Med upon hy the monied interest of the country. .In considering the Subjeti before them, he disclaimed the least:idea whatever ;o f .ex , citing any sensation of desflondi:tintecw a r.: '') pea nti ke si r thi we : s f of this particular nature, he more liable to misrepresentation than on any other, s'ubjec't, and in that view he .felt 'himself called uponupondistinCtly to state his firm coovklio o , that instead of there .existing any real sauce lii de. spontlincy or dismay, the country had upon every account, just reason to be pi , fidt:nt ru the strength and adequacy of its oivn resources, The Loont ;ry was a. :o cover the existing of muck greatet deficiencies, and this he was !wittily able to prove ; and farther, that it was not only equal to main . - tain its'existence and independence but even to reimell aggression, and to ,take ample vengeance on the authors of that aggression : the Parliament, under such circumstances, should .not shrink, hum its dtity, but fairly call these tesnurces into action, and provide a Revenue•fully adequate to meet the occa-, sions of the Country. It was 'fully in the recoliec eion of-their Lordships, that a short time before the Chri3t was recess, the Finance. Minister of time Coun try', at an unsual period of the Session, and in eir ctimnstanees of extraordinary moment, anticieated the customery statement of the Finances of the current year. Tne reason assigned for ibis proceeding was, the necessity of laying before the Countiy a true pidute of Its Finances; he was relieved trom much trouble on the score of reference, as his state. ments.respetting that display of the Finances, were drawn from *a publication which he had reason to believe was ushered into public notice under the authority of Ministers, and therefore it could not be, conceived to contain a false account of those statements. Notwithstanding these specious ad. vantages, the effect of this publication was to delude every monied amm who placed confidence in it. oa . this head he could say m uc h, b ut t h e CO ns id era . tiLin of the subjed, in the view he alluded to,. had better be left until the teal Budget of the pre. sent year should come forward, which in - the course •of a few weeks may be found necessary. Among other points of finance, that statement ex. hibited the melancholy expedient of a loan ; but the question was, whether that was the last time such a Measure should be recurred to ? Thai publication contained also a statement of the revenue and ex pendittire of time country, and laid before the Public the comfortable view of a surplus of even e million sterling. What the eireft must be of Such a state. ment on die Public at large, and on the Mettopolis, may be easily conceived. It was not lung, how ever, before doubts were entertained of the truth tsf these statements, and they had nearly fallen into complete discredit, when a Noble Lord was pleased to step forth,' and contend that the calculations in question, instead of being ekagger,teed, were below the truth. In considering the real state of the question, he would undertake to prove, that the aCtual revenue at that very time, instead of 'yielding a surplus, was in fatft more than two:Millioni below the Expenditure, which,, as the reielt of that statement, exhibited a gees!, and in excusable error of at least three Millions Sterling.— In another point of view, he contended, that the aetual Revenue would be found to fall even four Millions short of the Peace Establishment, as voted by time other House of Parliament in November last. In calculating those points, hc should take the year as ending the eth . of January, and lie ILA no hesitation in taking his ' Statements iron) the Docu ments he had before specified, that the statement made by the Financial Minister on the loth of De,_ cember, was full of the grossest fallacy. His first reference would be to the 19th page of - the PubliCation alluded to, and there the supposed expenditure WAS stated to be in the aggregate t 1,530,0001. from Which were to be dedutted the 2.171115 for the Irish proporti,n,, and also the Irish charges upon the Consolidated Fund : but afterwards . was to be added a charge of so o , ooo l. w hi c h wou ld make the total mipposed, expenditure of the Navy, Army, Ordnance; anti miscellaneous services, to amount to -10,533,000% for Great Britain, In this part of the calculation he 'had to observe, that one material article of expence was entirely overlooked, namely, the extra buildings in the Navy, which this year amounted to s' 0, 0 . —The average amount of . this . necessary expence - during t h e l ast e Peace was about moisol. pet annum ; hut alloW ingffor the various differeecei which had taken place since that period, he thought the average expence of that department could not he estimcted at less than' 700,0001, per annum, which; added to the other articles of Expenditure, would form a total of tr,2334lool.—this would be the aggregate whets the expellees could be reduced t o t h e amount stated in 'the Speech. In considering the amount of the Revenue, as set forth in the same publication, the Noble Lord argued, that certain ,heath thereof were not accurately discussed. He alluded principally to the.;rOnsidetation' of the Land and Malt Taxes.— He then passed to a review of the Statements in the Consolidated - Fund, and described the real free Re venue its only that which was disposable after the payment of the interesi of the National Debt, and charges of the Sinking Fund : this was stated as amounting, to .J 0,599,9001. to was added, after• the produce of the Lottery. (in calculating which, his•Lotdship seemed to say, -there was some mistake)the expeeted contribution of 500,0001. from the 'Revenues of India. In this part . of Imis Speech, his Lordship took occasion to panegyrize the Administration, and the 'abilities of the Noble Marquis, at the head of the Government in India, whose talents, great as , they were, in Nego. tiatiun, War, and Ci v il G ovein m ent , were , perhaps, exceeded by those he possessed for mat. ters of finance, a ground upoa which his enc. mien had unaccountably strove, to calumniate him ; but this reference, his Lordship observeA, na. totally depended *upon the continuance of Peace in India : this and other points made the supposed total of the Ways and Means to be 1 1 )595,0001. from which, after deducting the hypothetical ex n. diture, as set forth in the same document, left an imaginary surplus of 1,032,0001. In contraverting these statements, his Lordship entered into a va. Hey of detailed calculations, drawn; as he had be. fore observed, from the accounts before theilouse, signed by the Secretary of the Treasury. [Of these 'our'contraded limits allow us only to attempt a very faint sketch.] He first adverted to the different heads 'of proposed fellation, upon which the foregoing con. clOsicms weredrawn, and which it would be surrilu-- qus tO observe, were in the present circumstances of this Country-totally out of the question. He would consider what the anual situation of the Country now would. • be tJ7k r . e r time be heats of time proposed tetu r a my, to red i°llicarri Ve' the into expencesirt the SUM pl'Opl!Seti, 4 liumber o f a b out ze,ooo teen should be reduced, which, according to the plan of disposing - the Airily., would, at about the period . of the delivery of the King's Message, not have left one foot soldier to Great Britain. In tie t head of.Retitift lit ;ton prnposeu tar um sT, , • : , - 1,540,000'. wit , intended to be saved, and t;) do t h, he calculated about rS,OOO men ' mus t In! rednu.,'. : this, according to the newly broadted dothine that 1 Shi p s might be ready fir sea Wirl:Olit wit, (a Ido;b) . may be pratlicable enough ; but were the R e i tuttina attually made, we should n ow have no Navy fi t fur service. Alter skewing the • impraeticability of. those intended reduEtions, and calculating upon the ' I indispensable expellees of the anual Establishment, I Ile contended , that the permanent Establishment, as arranged even in November last, would be • '3436,000h ; a diminution was a consideration of possibility, but a considerable: increase, one. olgtea t probability. His Lordship then proceeded tar Vie ' ' consideration of the real Income of the Nation, and • after touching upon the various sources from which it was derived, and the indispensible charges to be made thereon, he calculated the t o t al or th e actuall cured his ,andhis. Means to meet - the real Expenditure of ~ the Country, at not more than 9,682,000 l• Fie / then adverted to the Austrian Loan , u p on which, after commenting upon its origin, atd the importa nt circumstances connened with that meas tne, he dr. i n t e e„ ral enu c e al a c i u n l: u ti n o t n ed ti t t stated ni3k p a t r o a v b io o sPi u io t inl ' i + D o tn i r , o tri o ;la o et l . Lt t P eb u re r ei s sl u or i b n 'oe g df theiPr: Parliament which o e t g l e t: - ortlatebro,uth9e,:tgis7odo,olt.itat t he free i culated, together, with the heats of , i t he l'i t? c c h l i lt e : 111; statement he had given of the Supplies :In W'ils ~ and Means, would evince the deficiency he lod el tmt'lvith staring, of more .than two Milikais Siff. . ling- The Noble Lord then proceeded to vs:cola.'" the different heads Of Revenue and Expendicu I .'• 1 0 1 a.. more enlarged %calk..., aril p ro ceeded to detnonsuge deficits to a more con.iderable aincmitt. ii . " ken concealingepat It mi upont tritethe t i. •:r n i ;a l 4 1.1 ) ; ( .:i i a t i rf Minis te : s , in " ter ' Country, than coming forwarCilitic:arintllitAllPyce:o°tll/1:1:t - j'' ' the exigencies of 'the caw, and at once render the i Revenue coral to the 'necessary Expenditure of the Country ; and condemned the system of the Palau' . cal conduct of •Ministers, as equal'iy censurahlte ‘%,iih the others. While he was thus engaged, The Earl . of Colrg KIRI' rose t,t srlk t° ~ amlier, anti proetetled to state leis reasons for dam'. ing the Noble Leird outofordizr. w het, he 0..1) hint . *elf called to order by The Earl 0. - I . 4IL .I.' ' Ewho s hor t y stating '''.li I —, .t 1 ~ • the grounds of his interfere , ce• . -] Lord Gh:LATILLE proceeded to comtnent ea il the conduCt. of Niiniiters,' partico:.trly with tesP et l ' to their Financial measures. -At the s,!tne titnehedis. '1 claimed all i.!eas of pet4onal animosity; sir i from i:, that for several of thefts lie entertained tTl'e he wa rmest feelings of 'friendship and re g ard. great objea. of his argument was to :thew that chef' had' not met the Fin ancial dillicolties of the Country in any on e instance. He adverted vt, the salutary expedient of their predecessors,'°£,, raising part of the Supplies within the Yell: which he. thought—they acted unwisely,. as .' as weakly, in not following up. Their al ol- tioltnteet of the System of Finance laid dutvo by these Ministers,, had reduco them to the microbic. ex client of Peace LUans, measures villich %Wild .1-i.IC, i' p.thy the operation of the Sinking Fund, and ' '' k { 'ti ny the gradual extinflion of the Public Debt ; " c ,,i; 'by • • cipaily condemned the Financial Systere in'''''' k f t Ministers, which, at , the end of nia Y e .'":',,,,tt *ern -with - a real deftiritney o f f,,u,._,Militiont,l' and Of the' boasted Surplus of a Million Ster l.ll t : „ re , he insisted, that no Financial Minister, ": . , 1 '1; his said, duty, in.dytt circumstancesy.t:heramounted . if En a oa u h ur n e ir t , Country.- ofveh,(.ir unic ' the alual Revenue with Coe necessary E%P er ' ' accuracy o f the °ffromthethCe°ltaltriorjrcY6l 07ue:Lljualtiiitiiinrge , r , „•d e a the The Expenditure, t ,._ i. Land produce Of the Consol 3 irate o d ° h°-'uQnid. ;anadn4oftvtliA II! . '''' than i 1 not and Malt was deduct ed, the deficiency w"l'' pro . ai 10 RL4 IV D ae,e.. he amount to more than about 3,40 0 .° 031 * 'l".)e 'at° ' ` to c is" ,:, duccof the old Taxes.had, he said, increased ' 11 ,4 1 .. of discussion in that House.- _III protest 3 1 37al ' n 0 s ° t ° t i. he i p i r e ae . tnlicuesf'ofil:valtevi:gr, i s l te l an e tet s c o nr i l ii t ivi i t ; I: made in other places, and pamphlets, - Expenditure of the present year, he , said, ti",, c3 • ~:t• was undoubtedlyflarge, and i'ught not Jo' be t' 1 " 1 ';'7 4 i• as An that a ve r a ge criterion; but it liottlil be recol letet ,; t v. under the present circumstances of the sour'C"l'l. d. ,•::, of the Spoil er . adverting ..:,5 cY ';'l' Lord PALII.4ItI likewise defended the A6° 3, , try, economy Might' only have invited thc •:4 ~:Ate- -.• of the Accounts, and .. j:.-tfied to snaking *the .. -- t he ,-....: meats which had been made in other placckg„ic,_.::-;•.! subjeet of discussion in that House. Those ~i id ::' Counts would have ,hven much better diseus%„dy another place, were the 4 could ha v e been l' r ? r '' met by the person who smug it them fortvar'd` 00 ,. , severe invedi we had been , made against th 3l ,ll l lca . I t 3 i u o t n it which llnu l l ' t i a . 1 1 ) . e b e r fe ' t e r t) a il l e l u et il e t at in ' I e CT:l 1 1 l i t: - l t ) t e l C (l l ;l ti l e.). t id b e a ll e upon,, that it had been stated by that Pers ° "' ~,,,t1 it Nould he necessary to make the Revenue C I e. . to the Expenditure. He. 'observed that the lial ) , i. .- dal L oan could not with any proprie t y be c. d °74 tiered 'as a Subsidy, but as a Loan t o be po• Austria. „ . set' Lord GtENVILLS and Lard'AUcict.Ato explained. The Bisbc" of ST. RS API! said, if it was ille ( ! i ; ly a question whether the Accounts on the. 1.4 " 1 were correft or not, it might certainly be proP er k i r appoint a' Comtnittee,ro investigate them, in , r 'i, that, ilthere were errors,-they might be dete 4 ' gt ; and if there were not, that the Accounts atigh' re and unsugpeeted and unimpeaehed. It wa9, l''''" ever, to be considered, whether this was the 1 . 11 ,7 meat for entering into such an investig3tino. 'll,' WAS peculiarly to be consid-!red, beeause, rerh,'' at 11, , next meeting of that 11,npre they aou I . ia Country might be called upon to unite in repre,“",o, the ambition and chAstisiog the bid flith Pi ‘'; whom he coti!d not, perlw,, at the presevt niottlel, call our Enemy, but whetn 1.. A ()01,1 clesigri3t .1 our must detestable Friend. • w) 0 oc• The Q nes tion was then pot, l ti.l the Mo 4 gativ.e.d mithout a dtvisinr. . Lori ELLEIV/VMOUGH f . l -yrd it , r Je ave •“; "‘, briog in a Pal for the better:l,l'oi Oing for tile'rilAt cif Arceisstics in, Ow crime of wiltalk 4 in kin g '"'' . . . 6 i: ill' sleiti.r:ing Ship, .61i I I.ir tilt ttt.ti ul i'ib‘fl ( :,: .-..:.•,4"-*