The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-12 00:00:00

elma 1.....--,, - - disapprove of." Was this a broad and permanent ground on which the Parliam-nt could stand and refuse th..ir consent to this measure ? What was the nature of the opposition to this Rill ? Some of those who opposed it objected to sny establish.. dent, whilst others entertained opinions exactly the reverse of this. What permanence or stability of resistance could be ex pected from a body of men, some of whom were as wide apart fro m the others as were the poles? Here was his Hon. Fs teed the Member for the University of Oxford (Sir H. 11. Inglis), who stood, as be himself, under different circumstances, and in a, cill'•rent conditio n o f th e coun t r y m i g ht h ave s t oo d, advo catinge the excl us i ve en d owmen t o f t h e Ch urc h o f England— "tit this Bill were rejected, amongst what companions would } lt find himself ?—( Cheers.) But that was net all—for a large :proportion of the rest of those who opposed the Bill, but who did - not go the length of abjuring all endowments, altogether re fused to follow his lion. Friend in his support of the Church of England, and laid claim to an equal endowment for all forms of Protestants. Yes; opposition was oee thing, but the esta blishment of a broad, just, and p et mancnt policy was another. -- (Cheers.) It was very easy to firm a combination—he used The word in no offensive sense—by an accidental conjunc tion of those who differed on almost every subject, which might effect the immediate purpose in view; but when they came to ask upon what principle a Government was to rule, or a people 1 ° be governed, what answer could they give ?—( Loud cheers.) -In this ca , e, what answer would his Hon. Friend give to the. Teeple of Ireland ? When that question once presented itself,. 4 new order of ideas was started, and fresh obstacles rose up to the mind in a frightful and gigantic form.—( Cheers.) The o pponents of this measure ought to state to the Irish people Upon what principle they proposed to proceed. Did the oppo eitien to this Bill support any such principle as that for which his Honourable Fries d contended ? Del they propose to con sne all endowment to the Church of England ?—( Hear, hear.) There was notoriously a violation of that principle in a new case *very recurring year. It was not enough, he said, for them to 'Object to this ur that. They must show some intelligible plan 'of proceeding, on which they were to take th. it stand. One 'Principle was the total abrogation o. all religious endowment. That principle was supported neither by the House nor by the country ; and it would, consequently, be ridiculous to speak that as the fixed principle cf their conduct. He would dismiss that altogether. Then others said Recognise the different forms of Protestantism, but exclude whatever is in coma - 1131°e with she Church of Biome." This ;" I .l _ % not good i n a const i tut i ona l or i ts a re li g i ous point of view. did noteundesstand what was meant by a thing of so untie ned and vague a meaning as Icon which they called Protes ntenitteiatu• by this he meant to vey no reproach. He was aware that Protestantism was a something quite definite e,,Z tu e minds. H e k new th a t i n the mi n d s o ; many men it „aa%ornething more than a mere negation—that it was a sub t've reality, and definite embodiment of truth. But whe r; ' hi % was so or no t, it was clear that the Constitution did that " " %rilse that which was called Protestantism. It was true tam ' h ue Constitution required the Sovereign to be a Protes- Pa r l: " t the word there used was made definite by the Act of a arrient ; for the Act required that the Sovereign should be turnriatinicant of the Church of Enland. So be dinaid that he .x ? i , e • tld , -6 ' understand, and than the Constitut ion di ot recog aod,._ihat which was so vague, so indefinite, that which floated v aried every day. Was it not impossible, then, for the . op uents of the measure to take their stand upon Protestantism? si s e ted °l4, l not o en any religious discussion, but what he in- Se . tel.,: u.blcPOn was, open any religious discussion, but what he in - - On the difficulty of making this . ground a clear, atOsubstantive basis of public policy. He under bud the definite alliance between the Constitution and the Z ri l h irci l of England, and he also was able to understand the e Z e aton be'.ween the State and the Established Church of g i o ° o anil, but that appeal, lee confetsed, was weak to his eh thinfee'inee's which was founded upon negative terms and g , which were left in uncertainty and vagueness. Re tlarkese let t ,ete were the words of Ale. Burke, contained in the last u rit er ne had written on public affairs. These words had been „ i t en in the tats r years of his life, when his mind was under "mu impression of the reality of future things. In 1799 to i i ßurk e h a d said, " It is not agreea bl e to p i ety or pr i nc i p l e % e l." any pi ivileges to a negative relig io these privilegn. Such is Protes- I 'M without a creed, and to withhold es from o a f who entertain clear and intelligible views of religious , and from whom we do not greatly differ, is neither just el e r i rea sonable." Mr. Buike had then begun to find that the 41 ,;', °glen of t h e R oman Cathol i cs was i mpo li t i c anti unjust, such h a d b een his opinion in the l ater years o f hi s life. ale was awa - e of the religious feelings of many ~ eeming bers of that House and of the country ; hut, th ose 50 aware of that religious feeling, he implored p ie who rested upon that feeling to consider how it stood. would not make any minute comparisons as to the dif oeirent forms of religious persuasion, but had they such reli -1.17t consistency as justified theta in pleading religious ,„P les ?—( hear, hear.) To judge rightly of this question ' "ght to put themselves in the position of Roman Catho frs'--(Loud Opposition cheers.) '1 hey ought always to argue es s' a tt r t the point of view in which they stood with whom they e dealing. He should, indeed, be surprised if any one h o ney to obvious a principle. Did they not give votes of el i on ey to other religious bodies ? Would their conduct in ,at respect bear scrutiny Had not a measure which, dur- Pthe last sessson of Parliament, had been introduced by his t ifeat Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel), been called the " Socinian ndowment" Bill by licensed politicians ; hut they needed 1 2ot to travel so far back for a real Socinian Endowment Bill, "Ir every Appropriations Bill which they passed at the con • elusion of each session, contained votes of money for the en- ',lviwtnent of Socinians. He might be told that this was only 'll's from year to y s ar, and might at any time be s t o pp e d. That seeemed to him more a technical than a substantial ob action. The question he put to himself was, would it be st opped ?—( Cheers. 1 Would - any one propose its disconti %lance? He might lament it, but if it were not to be altered, it was dishonest to refuse to recognise it.—(Cheers.) Ilis Right Honourable Friend had presented a petition from t he Remonstrant Synoil of Ulster. They had the candour to tidrnit that they received money frosts the State. The doc trines they supported were Arian principles, and feeling that th ey were thus further removed from the religion of the State th an i t the R oman Catholics, they could not understand why, as received a State endowment, the College of Maynooth t , 5 not entitled to receive it also. If those . petitioners did not --erstand the reason, he must be a sanguine man who ex v'ectied that the Reiman Catholics would understand it. He coud n° te then, find its the practice of the Constitution, or in the conviction of his opponents, arty substantial, fixed, and per hearent ground f or opposing the present measure.—(Hear, greater It was stated that the Rotnish Church demanded that It there was something peculiar to titt‘,Church which rendered the endowment objectionable, nine tt was manifest that in this objection the opponents of Dr,, t ,sure had descended from the main ground of their Pr e eP' e iie - -( Hear, hear.) They must either be able to ~,toirdund a constitutional profession of faith for which they Re it el aim a perfect uniformity, or they must admit that the edtitan,Catholic Church, like any other religious er ted ; el to take her chance in urging such claims uponParka- Rro ild a ,' s he best could. Being thin unable to discover any c ourse , which would warrant the Legislature in pursuing the do e of , ° ,f ,exclusi on aga i nst the R oman C a th o lics by the rejec fers, this Bul, he would proceed to say that the . boon con t° th e °Y the Bill was a eat boon. It was most important as dos principle it involved. He would not refer to it if it were it di , e t but there could be no doubt that the Bill, though C h• eels‘4 not,decide the question s - the payment of the Roman theurgY, did most emphatically and conclusively decide . e ueer s. 'as objection to that measure.—(Loud Opposition t r otted: , I nsuperable obstacles might arise upon other t he e ofhooslet them not conceal , the fact that the mea t, t sonHonourable 1-riena, brought . forward in la '°4s, decided any rel-gious objections which could be that his was question.—( Cheers.) In another point of view, th e a great measure. He did not attribute its greatness th e 40 tho e „ of pounds which swelled its importance, but. i l u a wree: t se . s r hyuld know that never had there been such an en th, anted on such terms. He did nut intend to im tiaite su e principle upon those grounds—on the contrary, he Pelt s °uPPorted sle s „Y gift, es it. Only let it not be said that this was a ' lll 'ilt to ,•.e dui not know what was the amount of the en . attiou dt .%rinity College, Dublin; but if that were larger ',re sit to It w a s the e granted on different terms. It was usual to pl)''Onia„" Eitablished Church honorary privileges and ei r e re spo4di' o nd °wments ; hut they imposed upon that_ Church th uer servi e r estrictions—they regulated the performance atta c h",-- restra i ne d t h e assem blies of her clergy— q° was slow ' to thei r g ifts various conditions.—( Hear, hear. ) j e ert nany ess . 'Peakin g of general rules. It was the casein th ai l the se t t was th e same in France. There was something p a Stat e, sires of gi v i ng an d ta ki ng b e t wee n the Church and q t Pal bull t wasi well known that in France and Austria , no "ere "s valid t the content of the State. he . la tent is OU I rl i toi t te t (l l , , s t p lci i ritua lirned the right of assent over all Papal ordi and secular. Arid so, though this might be a gift which Z wr nent, it showed a spirit of confidence and kind tq was ei sse trusted would be appreciated.—( . Cheers.) The e fette to - ndow re d by no condition, and in this respect...was 4 fer r 'tent more ed _ liberal than that which the State sit rch O f a P"n the Church of this country, and upon the t4tt ny other countries. He said, then, that this was trit u ; street importance, and a boon of great magni ., sted t , being thus a boon of great magnitude, he atitt if , t , h e 's re • "'CY had made up their minds that circum ttelsrt, alduired it from them—if they did not find in their ftlhis til':asconscierices any permanent principle of resistance p p °lld e h e u ree—he trusted that they would give it freely.— e -er titir d ' et 's.) It might be said that this would operate as a b e a c t ept ed !.° s edition. It m i g ht b e to regar d e d. It might be ,os "I a wron, an ungracious, and ungrateful spirit -55)511..0 aticiat.they ba g d no right to think. If this were of itself uces t t righteons 'Act—with reference to the circum tsvirelee the country and of the time—they should not allow art 'eh it $, to be go verne d b y a cons i deiat i on o f t h e manner i n ex o ..uld be received. He had lately read the words of eerribe::* Gentlema n , who was well known and was a "atter' of that House (Mr. O'Connell), which, being ti t u tlid ist le of his humour and oint the House ' p te t tik Perh aps „ permit him to read. He said" . Agitation, I (LPeal A Conciliation -hall, lam much obliged to you ; Iltseoat ssociation, Alaynooth, ought to pray for you."— ti ii .wie s i d er i and cries of " Hear, hear.") Well, the doctrine s 4 u es "PPose was held, or might be held, in Ireland, that h o r , t ,her a a ns Preneium to agitation, and an encouragement to ee tt l thi s "ttation.—(Hear, hear.) But he hoped those who mi ts te t i ~,,,a4Rurnent would remember that agitation was a two. 4` ) ,a th e P c ntsethat it might he used ots the one side as well ; and that, if the Irish people offered a tempting thoti,tioosf Or a w g h lt i a t h ion, it was equally possib . le, from a view of the had . that night been laid upon the table, and ti c ; t able, ie ci n! which he was satisfied would yet be laid upon thi tt a e ot ieBnat this subject would afford a field open for agita ""rnPting, not less inviting, not less seductive in e Loth Ahern resisting it.—(Hear, hear.) He deprecated h e !_erttl s ,: a.... one agitation and the other. He trusted that sas h °f• i h i u s °, ;wiser spirit weu!d prevail among the /gem -414, f th e Cesesuse....(Hear)—and likewise over the general tos s ' s l ntry• He trusted that in Ireland, as in Eng 1r would . feel convinced that they ought not to press tk Parti e _',eitner side their ideal claims and extreme opinions. su et i t ci:tinneld. that religions was involved in this question, and thi wa x to admit . of two considerations, he would ask, if th:,eoe tir ,,ie the state of things, what was to be the fate of l irss ios t , h,'„ e ut to be hopelessly torn by endless disputes, with th a ' t re t ss ed to , ared, even of that religion which parties 'hones ly that hose Inculcate.—( Hear.) But he cherished the hope it they °favourable anticipations . would not be realised : \ vs e v vould Rive s t ° liv e • be a disposition to consider how impossible _ xt p er _ ti __. o in a. country where there were different reli • re eoe ' t " o l i _lv . s, if every one was to urge his own claims to r tile rs '; t ur • He trusted that men would refuse to sur thee th at th•ee;vews to the unchecked . dominion of these feelings,. eataite i , ofwould acquiesce in a just consideratien of lo srs ited O thers He knew it would be said that they had t;lLs _ar principle of this measure, and that it would after ,_yebeet;:sitierhleirit out extreme length. That . was an ar tall. ar f rom , s . difficult absolutely to disprove ; but it et kit end es e, 'iing true as applied to political matterstene ,.4:.,,r7tt,.%P. teluariiiywto the affairs of this country. That wasan ' a4cl air. a gamst • concession at the time of the American di-posed of in a few words, which were 3,ka".!V,Cable to their' ,e , ssi o %Pre si , ed present position. Mr. Burke said, when r epii of A rderi :_'_' arguments that to comply with the con ft'ol o ' ,, tl— "` It i-54 would only whet their appetite for more, a great mistake to imagine that mankind f tti rt:r t i e ' ri t tir,):refrraectice their speculative principles, either in f i Re %j olt . c dorat as far as their arguments or their woedthe es t e lead them, We, Englishmen, stop short of e ftist• ent ° f the principlea by which we support parts of „ f tutio n, or ise:adts.eridotthi-aisZn.aer'Lss-phlayesiaecevatieendpra:ndle,hu:aetse.ll‘slik(o)lne. his " m Th at e :r e ia l w i e n r t e cre t s h M e that Odr these is belief w ( Hear, hear.) He con rt : a :w ords were applicable to all Sttg a t 1 4 , d, besand ad A .' co mmunitie s on earth, but especially to impossible not to see that the system e Nree s , wire,rnment consiseed in a combination of oppo 'en shaped anti modified each other, and THE SUN, LONDON, SATURD Y EVENING, APRIL 12, 1845 . looked upon the Right Hon. Gentleman as the last paladin of principle, the very chivalry of abstractirn ; end, when a ques tion was ra ;red u bleb touched the elementary principle of constitutional settlement and ecclesiastical arrangement, I never believed that it could be the Right Hon. Gentleman who would come down and g ive the House the small change of circumstances to settle this great account.—(Laughter end cheers. ) Have circumstances which ought to settle every thing—have circumstances not changed since the time of \;r. Percival? How astonished must Mt-. Percival's ghost be—if he has a ghost..—(Great laughter.) Yet were Mr. Pitt, or Fos, or even Burke, whom the Bight Hon. Gentleman has quoted . to-night, brought in to settle this question, we might feel the controlling influence of the great apparition. But Mr. Percival to be brought in to settle it !—(" Hear, hear," and a laugh. ) Mr. Percival seems, in a spirit as petty as his nature, to have agreed to a miserable vote about this a , xidental college at Ma)nooth. What, let me ask you, was the political and religious situation of affairs by virtue of which Mr. Percival became Prime Minister at the time of which I am speaking? You had really then what you pretend you now hve—a Constitution in Church and State. You had that Constitution, and Members of Parliament being then neces sarily in communion with the Church, were, by virtue of this junction of Church and S:tate, in fact members of a lay synod. What, again, was the situation of the other kingdoms of the empire ? You had a Church in Scotland without any Dis senters, the only persons there not belonging to it being the relicts of the old Episcopalian establishment. What, also, was the case with respect to Ireland ? There was your Constitu tion in Church and State not only founded in principle, but most rigidly adhered to. What do we now see? You have no longer in this country your boasted union cf Church and State. N on may proclaim them still—you may make speeches to prove that the union is as strong as ever—you may toast them at your public dinners, but I tell you that the Constitu tion in Church and State no hanger exists.—(Hear, hear.) 11;hat is the broad and undenir6le fact with respect to this proclaimed union? Why, even within my own per sonale xi experienceence,l am politically I detect its connected hollow with a district ness;andt which otes , tits n is threatened with very severe suffering in consequence of this supposed Constitution in Church and State ; the inhabitants of that district are about to endure one of the greatest blows that could be inflicted upon them, and this solely because it has pi aced a Conservative Government to destroy the ancient epis copate under which they have so long been governed.—( Hear, and cheers.) What is now the position of the Church of Scot land—a church which the late Earl of Liverpool held up as a motel, and as the perfection of a religious community, because, I suppose, it gave him no trouble ?—( A laugh.) What, I repeat, is the present situation of the Church of Scotland ? It is rent in twain. Besides the Kirk, there is now the Free Kirk. Well, will you endow the Free Kirk ? Will you apply this principle of endowment to sectarians and schismatics of every class ? Where will you stop ? Why should you stop ? And this consideration brings roe to the question immediately before the House. You find your Erastian system crumbling from under your fc et. Will you adopt a pantheistic princip!e ? I have unfaltering confidence in the stability of our Church ; but I think that the real source of the injury which threatens it is its connexion with the State, which places it under the control of a House of Commons that is not neces sarily of its communion. Leave the Church to herself, she will shrink from no contest, however severe. I believe in Ireland itself, if the question be, will you sever the Church from the State, or will you endow the Roman Catholic Church ?—for my own part, I believe the Protestants of Ireland would say, " Sever the connexion between the Church and the State, and don't endow the Roman Catholics."— ( Hear, hear.) lint then we come to this other consideration—are we to be bound to recognise a pantheistic principle ? Because, judging from all that has passed, I can only come to the conclusion, that any body of sectarians that can prove a cer tain population to Downing-street will be con s id ere d t o h ave a claim for an endowment. For my cwn part, I confess I have no great confidence in the cure of souls in that quarter.—. ( Hear, hear.) I observe in Downing-street a disposition to assail our old and deeply rooted habits. From that quarter has proceeded the assault on the parochial constitution of the kingdom. Will they complete it by attending to our spiritual necessities? For my part, I am totally opposed to such a pro ceeding.—(Hear, hear.) I can conceive nothing more op posed to, or more utterly at variance with, the feelings of this country than a police surveillance, such as is contemplated over the ceremonies and observances of the Church. I abso lutely deny that the Church of England is the creature of the State. The alliance between them has been one formed and maintained upon equal terms ; and if it be attempted, as ap pears to be the intention, to place all ecclesiasticol affairs under the control of Downing -street, and to subject them to the same species of discipli ne th a t i s en f orce d in Prussia over the religious establishments there, I tell the Right Hon. Gen tleman that the people of this country will never endure such a system. This alone is a sufficient ground with me to oppose the Bill now before the House. I will not say that this Bill has been introduced into this House in a sinister and insidious manner, though I, in common with others, have formed my conclusions upon that point; but I will as sert, what I believe cannot be denied, that the measure has taken the country by surprise. But I have other reasons fur opposing this measure.—( Hear, hear.) I oppose this Bill on account of the manner in which it has been introduced, and I oppose it also on account of the men by whom it has been brought forward.—(Loud cheers.) I am perfectly ready to meet those cheers, and I do so by declaring, that I do not think--putting totally out of view the other objections which I entertain—that the men who are now seated on the Treasury tench are morally entitled to bring such a measure forward. This measure, Sir, involves a principle against which the Right Hon. Gentleman and most of his colleagues have all along most signally struggled.—( Hear, hear.) When I recal to mind all the speeches, and all the motions, and all the votes which have emanated from the present occupants of the Treasury bench on this and analogous questions—when I remember their opposi tion to that system of education which they now seek to pro mote—when I recollect the procession of prelates going up to the palace of the Sovereign to protest against analogous mea sures with those which those who incited this proceeding are now urging forward—when I recal to mind all the the dis cussions which have taken place here on the subject of Irish education—when the appropriation clause presents itself to my momory—( Loud cheers)—l consider it would be worse than useless to dwell at any length upon the circumstances which induce me to adopt this opinion. And are we to be told, that because those men who took the course to which I have referred have crossed the floor of this House, and have aban doned with their former seats their former professions—are we to bet told that these men's measures and actions are to remain uncriticised and unopposed, because they tell us to look to the merits of their measures, and to forget them selves and their former protestations ? ( Loud cheers.) Such pretensions naturally lead to the question whether party, as a political instrument, is or is not to continue to govern the discussions of this House ?—( Hear, hear.) This question touches the whole policy of the Ministry. Let us, therefore, grapple with it, and decide what our future course shall be in this respect. Let us endeavour to put an end to the miscon ception and subterfuge which now surround us. I am perfectly contented to place the question upon this footing. Now, Sir, it is very easy to complain of party Government, and there may be persons capable of forming an opinion on this subject who may entertain a deep objection to that Government, and know to what that objection leads.—(Hear, hear.) But there are others who shrug their shoulders, and talk in a slipshod style on this head, who, perhaps, are not exactly aware of what that objection leads to. These persons should understand, that if they object to party Government they do, in fact, object to no thing more nor lees than Parliamentary Gevernment.—(Loud cheers.) A popular assembly without parties-500 isolated individuals—cannot stand five years against a Minister with an organised Government without becoming a servile senate.— (Loud cheers.) The objectors to party Government may have a good case, on the merits of which I give no opinion. They may say, " Here are we the Parliament of England; we have had the virtual sovereignty of this country for a century and a half ; we have plunged the country in debt, and we can't pay it ; we have done more than patri cian Rome in its most rapacious hour. We have mort gaged industry to protect property ; we have passed laws on the currency which have affected property more than all the tampering of the coinage by all the sovereigns that have ever existed; we have violently assailed, and now still more enor mously menace, the parochial constitution of the country, and, having differed on every other subject, we have at length agreed on one point, that with relation to the civilization, the wealth, and luxury that surround them, the people of England arc the hardest worked and the worst fed, the most miserable and degraded population in the world.—(Loud cheers.) This is the case of those who are opposed to party Government. Well, let them carry out their principle ; let them vote an ad dress to the Crown, go up to Buckingham Palace, fall on their knees before our Sovereign Lady, and restore to her the pre rogatives which they have so long usurped and so injuriously used.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) But for the Right lion. Gentleman, even a pedant in favour of Parliamentary power, who, First Minister of tho Crown, declares he is ready to go to war to-morrow with the Lord Chief Justice of England in be half of your privileges—who is jealous of the slightest inter ference with your business or your duties, even if you cannot transact or perform them—who enjoins the youth of England not to make brilliant speeches, but to work on railway corn mittees—(Laughter)—for him to set up for one who would be independent of Parliament and party, is indeed astonishing.— ( Cheers.) The Noble Lord opposite, the hereditary leader of the Whig party, who founded Parliamentary Government in this country, will, I am sure, not withhold his concurrence with the principles I have laid down. That Noble Lord, the re presentative of Mr. Fox, will not gainsay the motto of that great leader—" Men, and not measures." And how has the opposite system answered? You have permitted men to gain power and enter place, aed then carry measures exactly the reverse to those which they professed in opposition, and they carry these measures by the very means and machinery by which they conducted the opposition, and by which theygained power.—(Cheers.) And you are reconciled to this. pro cedure by being persuaded that by carrying measures which you disapprove of, and they pretend to disrelish, they are making what they call " the best bargain" for you. I say that the Parliamentary course, under the usual cit. cumstanees, is for this House to have the advantage of a Government formed on distinct principles, and of its consequence, a constitutional Opposition ; and yet here is a Minister who now habitually brings forward as his own mea sures those very schemes and proposals to which, when in op position, he always avowed himself a bitter and determined op penent.—(Loud cheers.) He brings in Canada Bills, he brings in Maynooth Bills, he uses expressions and excites feelings still more objectionable than the measures; but, let me ask the admirers of the best bargain system, how they think the Right Hon. Gentleman would have acted had they been introduced by the Noble Lord opposite ?—(Loud and prolonged cheers.) Why, then those Bills would have been at least checked by the Oppositien, by the constitutional Opposition ; the questions would have been criticised, they would have been opposed ; in the case of the College of Maynooth, I grant it may have been factiously opposed ; but this opposition is a necessary conse quence of a Parliamentary Government. In what situation are we placed now ?—(Hear.) Up come all these petitions; in them we hear the loud murmurs of the people, because there is no exponent of the national opinion in this House, while we have a Government which came into power by an organisation prepared to oppose such measures now engaged in carrying them.—( Loud cheers.) How can we accuse the Opposition? I may on constitutional grounds say, the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) ought to oppose the measure, though he approves it, because it is thus brought forward • the people find that the men who now occupy the High places of the Government support measures they were brought into power politically and personally to op pose ; it is for those who act on another set of principles to op pose the Government ; but we have not a Government formed on distinctive principles, consequently we have no constitu tional Opposition to keep the Government in check. Now, I hope it will not be said, because I have made these observations, which are in entire and complete relation and affinity to the motion before the House, that I am " bandying personalities." Certainly we live in strange times, when Parliamentary criti cism on a person in so eminent a position as the First Minister of the Crown is to be stopped by his declaring it personality, when it is but fair observation on the character and conduct of a public man—( Hear, hear.)—whose career is open to US, with respect to whom we have a right to draw th e i n f erences we think legitimate ; and if they are not just they may be con• travened in free discussion. I do not know what the House thinks of this system of putting down Parliamentry discussion; it is not a very new experiment ; it has been tried in—l will not say another House, for that must not be referred to—but it has been tried in what is called " another place."—(Great laughter.) I do not know whether the position occupied by "another place" in the public estimation and the public eye is one of which the Members of the House of Commons are particularly ambitious.— (Cheers and laughter.) I remember when we used to toast " another place " with three times three and nine times nine— ( Laughter) ;—" another place " was once a favourite toast at all Conservative dinners—( Laugh ter) —where is the independence of "another place" now?— t „ o t y h ( Great cheering.) It i s no t R a di ca li sm , it is not the revohi in s r p i i p r la it ce, o , f to th it e s il l i ll u t s h trio c u en s tiunrsyi,gniwfilciaiinete_h? consigned another Cheers and laughter)—it is Conservatism and a Conservative dictator.— (Cheers. ) Are you prepared to meet the same fate? Every time a Member expresses any opinions not absolutely agreeable to the Minister of the day, is he to be stopped by a charge of bandying personall,ies ?" Whenever the young teen of Eng land allude to any great principles of political life or Parlia mentary conduct., are they to he recommended to go to a railway committee?—( Cheers and laughter.) I have no doubt it would be very agreeable if this House was in the same condi tion, especially with regard to this Bill, as "another place." I know that the Members of this House are different, that the characters of the individuals who would control us are different ; but the process with both bodies, although it varies, is in re sult the same. It may break the spirit in " another place , " and it may lower th e tone in this ; " another place" may be drilled into a guard-room, and the House of Commons may be d, graded into a vestry.—(Cheers and laughter.) But the consequence is exactly similar, and that consequence will be, that you will have Bills like this Maynooth Bill, and that still more important measure which, after the admission of the Right Hon. Member for Newark, may be looked on as a fact, if not accomplished, yet ascertained, introduced, and carried through this House, and of course through " another place ;" and you may have the floor of this House covered with petitions, and the lobby of "another place" erowded with the constituents who have left us in despair; hut, whatever may be the degree of public feeling, whatever may be the depth of the national sentiment, if you choose I to support a Government that announces no distinctive prin ciples, which is in turn supported by an Opposition that does not oppose, I am certain there is no spirit and no nation that can resist a " cross" so deeply laid and so deliberately ac complished.—(Loud cheers.) This Maynooth Bill is intro duced instead of the Irish Registration Bill—(Cheers) —the necessity for which was as apparent when the Right Hon. Gen tleman was in opposition as it is now ; the necessity for which was doubly apparent when the Right lion. Gentleman assumed the reins of office, and equally apparent as it is now; but which is brought in after a four years' experiment of lowering your tone, and working that, cons titutionally, by means of a Whig opposition.—( Ch eers. ) W e h ave h a d this Bill brought in after a four years' experiment; and during those four years what has the Conservative party endured? What has it experienced? What is the treatment it has been obliged to submit to, till the thing was so ripe that even your mur murs are not noticed? This Bill brings affairs to a crisis ; the question is not to be decided on its merits ; it is to be decided on the fact—who are the men who bring it forward ? If you are to have a popular Government, if you aro to have a Parliamentary Administration, the conditions an tecedent are, that you should have a Government which declares the principles upon which its policy is founded, and then you can have on them the wholesome check of a constitu tional opposition. What have we got instead ? - Something has risen up in this country as fatal in the political world as it has been in the landed world of Ireland—we have a great Par liamentary middleman.—(lmmense cheering.) It is well known what a middleman is —(Cheers and laughter)—He is a man who bamboozles one party, and plunders the other—(A. laugh) —till, having obtained a position to which he is not en titled, he cries out, " Let us have no party questions, but fixity of tenure."—( Laughter and cheers.) I want to have a commission issued to inquire into the tenure by which Down ing-street is held.—( Loud cheers.) I want to know whether the conditions of entry have been complied with, and whether there are not some covenants in the lease which are already for feited ?—( Cheers and laughter.) I hope I shall not be an swered by _Hansard.— (Cheers. ) I am not surprised the Right Hun. Gentleman should be so fond of recurring to that great authority ; he has great advantages ; he can look over a record of thirty, and more than thirty years of an eminent career. But that is not the lot of every one, and I may say, as a general rule, I am rather surprised (especially when the Maynooth question is concerned), that experienced statesmen should like to recur to that eminent publication.—( Hear, hear.) What, after all, does one see on looking over a quarter of a century or more even of one's own speeches in Hansard? What dreary pages of interminable talk, what predic tions falsified, what pledges broken, what calculations that have gone wrong, what budgets that have blown up ! And all this, too, not relieved by a single original thought, a single generous impulse, or a single happy expression! Why Hansard, instead of being the Delphi of Downing-street, is but the Dunciasi of politics.—(Cheers and laughter.) But I want something more than quotations from Hansard to account for how parties have been managed in this House ; it is so matter of fact and yet w fallacious, taking in every body, though every body knows he is deceived ; so mechanical, and yet so 31achiavelian, that I can hardly say what it is, except a hum drum hocus pocus, in which the order of the day is read to take in a nation.—(Cheers and laughter.) Now, the system is to be brought to a test to-night. Will the House support the Government in a measure which, according to the highest authority,—one who has quitted the Cabinet for some reason that has not been given, and who, probably, may join it again under circumstances equally obscure—(Cheers),—is, in fact, an endowment for the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland ? If any vote were at stake in which the social and political equality of the Roman Catholic population was concerned, I would go as far as any man in the Mouse, and perhaps further than many. But, Sir, no one pretends that this is now the ques tion. The grounds on which I oppose this motion are not those of hostility to their claims, but grounds which they themselves, after the clamour of the moment, must feel are legitimate ones. I cannot admit the plea ad misericordiani, founded on the state of Maynoeth. Surely men of high spirit and bearing cannot for a moment bring themselves to suppose that we shall be induced to vote for the measure on this plea ; it would be an insult to them to suppose so. I know there are Roman Catholic colleges, well organised and well ordered, that are not in the condition of Maynooth ; there are sectarian colleges in England with larger revenues even than those now proposed to be given by the Government in support of Roman Catholic principles. What sustains them? The sympathy of their co-religionists.—(Hear, hear.) I cannot believe, there fore, that those gentlemen will, upon reflection, be anxious that this Bill should pass. I do not think it a measure either flattering to their pride or solacing to their feelings ; I do not think it either a great or a liberal measure. The Right Hon. Gentleman is a supreme master of Parliamentary tactics, and when he found he was not receiving front the seats behind him the once abundant chorus of applause to which he was accus tomed, he went forward to the red box, and saying, " I know this is a great grant to Maynooth," obtained the assent of several Hon. Gentlemen of the Opposition to the assertion. But if the Right Hon. Gentleman's principle is correct, I think it is not a great grant; I think it is a mean, a meagre, and a miserable grant. If the Roman Catholic priesthood are to be educated by the State, it must be something greater than the difference between 23/. and 28/., something higher than the difference between three in a bed or two.—( Hear. hear.) That is not the way, under any circumstances, in which I would approach a reverend priesthood. I cannot believe, therefore, that the Roman Catholic gentlemen, on reflection—and 1 hope they will have time for reflection-- will vote for this measure, when they consider what it is. Who are they who introduce it ? They are the same indi viduals whose black shade fell on the sunshine of your hopes for more than half a century—they are those who arrested the progress and fruition of those hopes for more than five-and twenty years. Will not these considerations affect you ? What if it be a boon ? I deny that it is one—but if it were a su ee c e h p a t biot—onnaestitfriosmsaihdim who,to be , wouultgedydouena,ecept it from hands polluted ?—( Hear, h ear .) I t i s not f r om him you ought to admitted, by a fatal S tate necess i ty , accompanied as he reluctantly re the l ly ta n.. cesssion of your legiti ma t e po li t i ca l c l a ims by the niggardly uc c n o t avowal that he was obliged to concede them.—( Hear, hear. ) As to the Whigs, I ant almost in despair of appealing to their hereditary duties, their constitutional convictions, or their historical position ; but I should have thought that the Noble Lord opposite was almost weary of being dragg ed at the triumphal car of a conqueror who did not conquer him in fair fight. I think the Noble Lord might have found some inspira tion in the writings of that great man whom he has so often quoted, and whose fame he so attempts to emulate. I should have thought that in the position of the Noble Lord—and he has a thoughtful mind and a noble spirit—Mr. Fox would have taken that course, which I think the Noble Lord, touched by his high position, and the responsibility of that position, will still take. His party may have fallen, but it still is one con nected with the history of this country. Other parties have also fallen; they have been re-constructeci, and they have been destroyed. The Noble Lord is not in so fallen a position as that degraded conditions position which sition l again bel i in which the Right H on. G ent l eman v ras in 18.31. But let the Noble Lord bewa re o f thi s, let him bewa re of risin g from that —( Hear.) They may b r i ng some short-lived success , hut upon this,—let the Lord would disdai n , —( H ear, hear.) But , Sir, if with re regard to this m easure respect i ng Maynoeth I do no t despair by th e same system of tactics. gallant spirit of the Noble of the aid of the Roman Catholic gentry of Ireland, or of the Whigs of England, or of those who oppoie the measure on ex clusive Protestant principles, I think I may the more certainly depend on the support of those who oppose this measure, be cause it seeks to pervert p r i n ciples which it seeks hereafter to distrust, because it seeks to lower the tone of this country and to change the national character of England.—( Bear, hear.) But, whatever may be the var ious motives and im pulses which animate these different sections of opinion, there is at least one common ground for co-operationt ere is one animating principle which is likely to ins p ire us all. Let us in this House re-echo that which I be lieve to be the soverei g n sentiment of this country ; let us tell the p eo p le in hi g h p laces that cunning is not caution, and that habitual perfidy is not high policy of state. On that ground we may all join. Let us bring back to this House that which it has for so long a time past been without—the legitimate influence and salutary check of a constitutional Opposition.—(Cheers.) That is what the country requires, what the country looks for. Let us do it at once in the only way in which it can be done, by dethroning this dynasty of deception , by putting an end to the into lerable yoke of official despotism and Parliamentary imposture. Mr. ROEBUCK said, he approached this question with con siderable apprehension as to whether he would be able ade quately to explain th e o p inions he held u p on it and the reasons for his vote. He fe lt this the more because it appeared to him f w hat they had heard to - night that all considera tiens of national we lfare would be for g otten in petty private d th a a n t ge this his ro was m a great national question, and th a t th ere was pique, and personal feeling.— (Cheers. ) lie did not like on y personal nature other introduced to disturb three considerations which must of • that House, and at that time, excite necessity in great anxiety a question like this to see feelings of a merely in the minds of all men who felt that they had a great duty to perform to the people, and who did not forget the interests of Hear, he would for the momentmake ' the people in c onsiderations concerning themselves.—(H hear.) And here one passing remark of a critical character. He could not congratulate the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury on the effect of the matter of his speech ; it cer tainl y had not been character ised by any of that remarkable talen t which was necessary t o b ear away the open malice which it evinced.—(Hear, h ear.) That speech was certainly poor in its performance, how ever ma li c i ous in its motives.—( Hea r, hear.) It was said to be something by on e who was himself w or th y o f praise; so acc used of inconsistency by one w h o was him self sa me charge. _ Even if he (M r. R oe b uc k ) weree be unwilling to use towards the Hon. M em b er those hard i t ve onlswhnardto o praised to be the words which seemed to stand in the place of wit on this occa sion, the argument, if argument it could be called, which amount to? Why, the Right Hon. Baronet formed the sum and substance of the Hon. Gentleman's speech, could be retorted on the Hon. Gentleman himself. What did w ( a ti s e n a o r, t ohnelayr.a) that held hy, it former opinions, and that with the his change of times he had changed opinions. The Hon. Gen tlemano the same co T n h st e it g u r t e io a n t al model eq)- charge, himself was open t b h a is d e i h n arge What was the sort of constitutional opposition to which the Hon. 11Iember at Rriegmeasinflontieur!?l—Boiareoari,.e,t.healr-1.7 camel f,inhdeeetdh,eshei?s posi 1 of his Parliamentary care was at one time the Hon. Member for Montrose. Commebnenfg e , vith these aspirations, he was shortly afterwards to found in in open opposition behind the one . t tf o m n e That was a natural question. iere An equally natural one was, butas p formeriam tunes dl been for ott brilliant merits have g hn, an d the e liberal Right Ho nourable Baronet has denined thought of measures and not of men—(Cheers and ghter)—then, indeed, we may b w a h c y k d o f i d the he understand the position of the Hon. Member and his unfortu nate of mind—unfortunate, perhaps, n ate state only because he has never had afforded to him the opportunity of " coming below the gangway."—(Cheers.) But, he asked, were not these miserable displays on such a question ?—( Hear.) When they had the country from one end to the other excited by the deepest and strongest feelings respecting their religious belief and expectations, was it not deeply to be regretted that they had had their minds turned from the great object of the debate B to these petty feelings and considerations? and he did hope the • House would pardon him if he endeavoured to forget all con - • sideration of the immediate amusement which might be de • I rived from malice in the guise of wit —( Hear)—and left it at I once for the more serious subjects involved in the question.— ( Hear.) It was a question which must be regarded as of • great importance on that (the Opposition) side of the House; for it involved not merely the quiet of Ireland, but also the quiet and well-being of England ; and perhaps, without aggeration, he might say, the quiet of the world at large.— . ( Hear, hear.) It was because he viewed the question in this light, arid because the country generally, and his constituents • in particular, were deeply stirred by conscientious scruples in connexion with it, that he approached it with such feelings of doubt and anxiety. If the question came before them now, ' for the first time, it would assume a very different aspect. But, however easy it might be to laugh at the word "cir cumstances," he could not shut out from his view the present condition of Ireland and of this country when he came to con sider the course he should take on this measure. " Circum stances " might be cited often, as indeed might " principles," without much care being felt for either one or the other. But when he looked at the state of Ireland, and at the circum stances under which they were called upon to vote on this question, he must say that it behoved them to place themselves above the agitation around them, to set an example to those whom they represented—( Hear, hear)—to do their duty boldly, and, whatever might be the result, to act up to their view of what was right and proper, and likely to conduce to the wel fare of this great community.—( Loud cheers.) Now, looking at the grant then proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government, he had no hesitation in saying that he, for one, was prepared to support it. He would go one step further, and declare that if the Right Hon. Gentle man had come down to the House to propose a grant, and they were for the moment excluding all recollection of any money having been formerly granted for the same purpose, he (Mr. Rot buck) would at once close with the offer. But he would take the ease as it was first presented to them. A purely Protestant Parliament in Ireland endowed, as it was termed, though he objected to the word, the Roman Catholic College of illaynooth. An annual grant was made by a Par liament exclusively Protestant and composed wholly of the rich, and that grant was continued up to the time of the union. At the period of the union a purely Protestant Parliament re peated the vote. Various Ministers came into power ; political parties of various descriptions took office; and under all this grant was continued. He wanted the House, however, to re mark particularly the circumstances under which a grant was first made to the College of Maynooth. This took place in 1795, at a time when the Protestant feared the Catholic less than he feared the principles of France, when he would rather see in every parish in Ireland a Catholic priest, a follower of the religion of Christ, than an emissary of the Jacobin Club in Paris, or a follower of Robespierre. During the existence of the Reign of Terror, they applied themselves to the task of con ciliating the Catholics, and to secure their assistance in the battle which they were fighting, this grant was made. As time went on the parties in the contest changed. Napoleon, it it is true, established Catholicity in France, but it was sup posed that he aimed at universal dominion, and Ireland was re quired to send forth thousands of gallant soldiers to tight the great battle that was then going on between France and Eng land. In the year 1808 the principle of the grant was again mooted, and again discussed, and they added to the grant that was originally made. They found a purely Protestant Parlia ment acting in this way, for its own purposes, under all Mi nistries, up to the year 1829. In that year the Roman Catho lics were, as it was termed, emancipated, and entered into the composition both of that and the other House of Parliament. The grant to Maynooth was again renewed, and was continued up to the time of the Reform Act. Now, it might, and proba bly would, be said that the doings of an aristocratic Govern ment were not those with which they could have much sympa thy, it being notorious that an aristocracy consulted only its own convenience and its own selfish interests. But after the year 1832 the Parliament was one which represented the great body of Dissenters in this country ; and from that time to the present had the grant been continued.—( Hear, hear.) What he had to say on this subject he wished to address to his consti tuents and to the people out of doors. They had for the last twelve years sanctioned this grant—they had sanc tioned the principle of it up to the present hour; and they could not, therefore, now turn round and tell their represen tatives, whilst they suddenly startled their ears with a sort of ecclesiastical trumpet—(Laughter)—that Protestantism was in daily and hourly , peril on account of this grant. (Cheers.) They had seen the former grant made, not only without remonstrance, but with applause; and if the grant had been made for twelve years by four successive Parliaments, with different Administrations in power, the principle being the same as regarded the religious question whether the grant were 8,0001. or 26,0001., they could not be suddenly called upon to recede from the principle on which the grant bad hi therto been made.—( Hear, hear.) Some complaint had been made against the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) on ac count of his stating that there were but three courses open. It would not be denied that it was exceedingly useful to look at the real position in which they were placed. That matters should remain in their present position every one acknow ledged to be impossible. It was admitted that the present position of Maynooth could not continue, first, by th e Hon. Member for the U n i vers it y o f Oxford, ho had always con sistently been opposed to the grant; and secondly, by those who had had a new light brought into their minds by the proposed extension of it. Hon. Members on that side of the House who supported the policy of the Government con tended, that the providing for the proper education of the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland was of the highest moment, as being calculated to make them feel that they were not aliens from the country of their birth. They felt that it was desirable to do all in their power to create in the minds of the Irish priesthood feelings of affection for the Government, and associations of pleasure in connexion with the place in which they were educated, instead of associations of insult and indignity.—( Hear, hear.) It must be recollected that the in stitutions of this country were not in any case paltry or mean, because they were unable to make them otherwise. They were, in fact, for the most part, distinguished by magnificence and liberality ; and if Maynooth were treated in a different manner it would be attributed not to an inability, but to un willingness to provide proper support. The Roman Catholic clergy had in many cases endured poverty and privation in car rying what they believed to be the truth from one end of the globe to the other ; and if it were necessary, he believed they would at all times cheerfully assist in bearing public burdens. But when they found all the appliances of wealth exerted in other cases and withheld in their own, they naturally felt that they did not enjoy their due share of the sympathy of England. What course, then, could the House pursue ? Why, they must either get rid of the grant altogether, or accede to the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. His only objection to that motion was, that it did not go far enough.—( Hear, bear.) He had hoped that the Right Honourable Gentle man would have proposed a broad scheme of academical edu cation, making Maynooth a Roman Catholic University, simi lar to Oxford and Cambridge, with the power of conferring de grees, so that the clergy and the gentry might equally have availed themselves of its benefits. Had that course been pursued, he believed no more hostility would have been exhibited to that proposal than the present.—( Hear, hear. ) Now, there were two classes of objectors to this measure. The first class, with whom he deeply sympathised, opposed the grant on the voluntary principle, objecting to the endowment of any religion by the State. They said, that at the present moment the Established Church was the monster grievance of Ireland, and they objected to what they called the setting up of a Roman Catholic Church establishment as equally objec tionable. But he contended that this was not the setting up of another establishment, but a contribution towards the educa tion of Ireland contribution in the best form towards the teaching of the only teachers of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) He regretted that the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman was so inadequate to that object ; but he supported it as an approach towards national education ; and he would do's° if, in place of being intended for the benefit of their fellow Christians in Ireland, it were designed for Jews or Mahomedans.—( Hear, hear.) Did they not contribute towards the teaching of the Brahmin priests in India, and of the Roman Catholic priests in Canada?—(Hear, hear.) In Canada there was a priesthood endowed by Act of Parliament, and not. one word had been said on the score of a violation of conscience. In fact, an Hon. Member had that evening admitted, that without this it would be impossible to maintain their colonial dominion. The ques tion of principle, it appeared, had no influence when interest was concerned.—( Hear, hear.) Then they put the principle in their pockets and sanctioned the endowment, as it was called, of the Roman Catholic religion.—( Hear, hear.) He did not object to this, he acknowledged the reason for it, and thought it a sufficient one ; but why not apply the same argument to Ireland ? —( Hear, hear.) If it could be shown that there were in Ireland reasons for believing that they would conciliate the people, that they would very much contribute to the harmony of the whole people by continuing and increasing this grant, how came it that it had the opposition of persons who could concede to this principle for the purposes of colonial religion ? The truth was, that there was not a single hour of any one of their legislative days that they did not break a principle. He supported the grant on the ground that we were of necessity obliged, so far as the religious teaching of the people was con cerned, to be for the moment passive. We must contribute as well as we could to the due education of the people in the faith which they held, and in which we had not a right to interfere; all that the State had to inquire into was, were they good citizens ?—( Hear, hear.) And, there fore, going from one end of the world to the other—to Canada, to India, to Malta, to the West Indies in fact, through the whole of our foreign possessions, we found that this was the system pursued; but, on turning to Ireland, he supported the measure on the ground of conciliation. He had once beard an observation made by a Right Hon. Gentle man opposite, " that we bad come to the end of conciliation." He was not going to quarrel with any change of opinion which experience might have wrought on the minds of Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, but he considered that within the last two years a great change had taken place with regard to the government of Ireland. We had adopted a different system to that which had prevailed almost during the recollection of every man in that * House ; and he considered this, the last proposed act of the Right Hon. Gentleman, a most marked step in the progress of this system of concession—a conquest over every successive Ministry that had governed Ireland since the passing of the Reform Bill. It had sealed upon it the doctrine of con cession, and both the great parties of this country were now endeavouring to make all necessary concessions to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He took this measure as one great step 'in that concession, not because (as had been asked) they, expected all these great conse quences from this paltry concession—from the difference between 9,0001. and 28,0001. a year—for he did not expect this. He might be asked, did he expect the priestood of Ire land to be bribed to our service by such means ? His answer was, he did not want to do that • but he wanted to make the people feel that the system was changed,—that we were endea vouring to do justice to that unfortunate people. Though he did not expect great results—though he did not hope that the priests might he established in that country immediately, yet he did hope that when this great measure was communicated in ;all its circumstances, the very opposition to it marking how strong was the necessity on the Right Hon. Gentleman's mind of such a proposition, this concession would convince the leaders of the Irish people, and address itself to their calm and thinking minds and generous feelings, and that their leaders and those who wished to excite them for purposes of personal ambition would not have them, as they now had, so thoroughly at command and beck. He took this as the greatest boon that had been conferred, not upon the people of Ireland, but upon the people of England ; for we might depen d u p on it, that if assailed to-morrow from abroad , and we were to refuse this grant, the insulted people of Ireland would recollect the insult. They had been told by many ardent persons that the religion of the Irish was a supestitution and moral, and parts of their books had been brought forwardim moral, e it • and that to endow this college . w . as to endow . a prov , col lege to teach immorality and superstition. The insulted people of Ireland would recollect this; and we should find our danger came not so much from abroad as it was at home. Our chief enemies would be at home, and we should be weak, and open to the insults of the world, because we had been unjust to one-third of our countrymen. It was upon this great ground that he maintained the grant proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. Look at the condition of Ireland at the present moment. Suppose that at the present moment England was in the same situation, and Ireland in a situation totally at variance with its present condition of great depression. Sup. pose they could find some Saxon demagogue —some William Long-beard to appeal to the oppressed Saxon and point to his Norman spoliator, and appeal to what was in the memory of many living men, and speak of the desolation which was spread t h r ough the land, of cabins burnt, of fields laid waste, and of thousands of people turned out to starve; suppose, then, he could point to the scene of the p a ti ent and deserving priest, careless of danger, an d wealth, and power, going to hese people thus beaten down and trodden to the earth, and ministering to them courageously and bravely all the religious comforts which their condition demanded—suppose a demagogue in England could say these things, would England be quiet undo r such circumstances ? woul t she not rise up as one man and put down the op pressor ?—( Hear, hear.) And had riot the Irish people the same feelings and power as we had? And were we to forget that this hypothetical case which he was putting was actually the case in Ireland? Mr. O'Connell regarded the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet as a " bidding" against him ; he (Mr. O'Canriell) knew very well that if justice were done to Ireland, Ireland would no longer seek to be divided from us, but would be our right hand in the time of war, and our friendly ally in the time of peace. Taking into con sideration the religious and moral aspect of Ireland, he would ask if the proposed grant could be considered in any other light than as a donation given to the people in the best form ? If he were asked the mode in which he (mild do the greatest good at the least possible cost, he should say it would be by educating the Irish priests. It would be a contribution made in the best form for educating the Irish people. The grant was objected to on the score of religious principle. These arguments were difficult to reply to, and for the most part he could not understand them. They eluded his under. standing altogether. He was told the objection was that the teaching at Maynooth was a teaching of error, and they objected to support such teaching. He had in his hand a very remarkable report of a speech made at Liverpool. Ile wished to call the attention of the House to observations made upon the present question, by a reverend gentleman at Liverpool (as we anderstood). He really felt it necessary to beg pardon of the House for bringing upon them a mode of treating the present question which was in all respects so objectionable, but yet the manner in which the reve rend gentleman discussed this matter was, in its way, very striking. He said—" Was God's word to be practically supreme, or not ?" and then he went on to observe, that though no part of the Bible was obscure, cer tainly not unintelligible ; yet there were some pictures of the sacred Scriptures to characterised by extreme clearness, that to doubt their meaning was little less than to deny the use of the Bible itself. The Bible prohibited the bowing down to graven images, it prohibited adultery, it p ohibited theft. Then he added that inasmuch as Parliament would not think of endowing a college for promoting adaery or theft, so they ought nut to endow a college which inculcated the prac tice of bowing down to graven images. Now he would ap peal to Hon. Members to say, if that was the manner in which such a question as the present ought to be argued— could he or any Member be fairly called upon to meet such arguments ? For his part, he should not attempt to do any thing of the sort. Neither should he seek to answer those who affirmed that their views of that which was the truth ought alone to be accepted as the truth. Who should say what was the truth as compared with the opinions of other men? For the reasons, then, which he had stated, he gave to the grant his most cordial support. Lord NORTHLAND next rose, but owing to the con fusion which prevailed in the House, the few observations which the Noble Lord made were nearly inaudible. He was understood to say that he felt great regret at being thus obliged, for the first time, to differ from her Majesty's Go vernment. On the motion of Mr. HAWES the debate was then ad• journed. AUCTION DUTIES REPEAL BILL. The Auction Duties Repeal Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock. THE MURDER AT HAMPSTEAD. TRIAL OF MOCKER. CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT. OLD COURT. The examination ofJaines Hocker (continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday)—He said he had got rather more than he expected. When he took off his coat, I saw that the sleeve of his shirt was torn. He said that he had been with Sarah Cox and her brother, and had got it torn in romping. I never knew who Sarah Cox was. The next morning he came over to breakfast., and gave his father a sovereign, his mother one also, and paid me a half-sovereign he hai owed me for four or five months. I had lent it to him as he was out of em ployment. lie had been out altogether for seven months. On the Saturday night Mr. Watson was in our house, and we had some conversation about the murder. Mr. Watson said it was an awful thing; and I said I heard some people talking about it outside. My brother said we had met to enjoy ourselves, and that was a gloomy subject to talk upon. On Sunday, after coming from chapel, my brother asked me to stay in a littlelonger. Idid so. On the same night I read an account of the murder at a friend's house, and saw that a letter, addressed James Cooper, Hampstead, was Eund in the pocket of the deceased. I had seen my brother address letters to De larue by the name of Cooper. On the succeeding morning, I woke my brother, and asked him if he knew who was murdered at Hampstead ? He said, no ; and I told him it was poor Delarue He was much agitated, and said poor Delarue! I then went to my father's, and returned ' to Victoria-terrace almost Immediately, when I observed that my brother had been crying. Afterwards, iN hen in my father's house, my father said he thought it was his duty to go to see the body. He said he would go. Soon after my mother came in, and said that the body had been owned by the brother. My brother then said he should not be required, and would not go to see the body. My brother showed me a watch. I had been told long before that he had sold or pledged a watch fur Delarue. He gave me to understand that he had redeemed a watch which had been pledged, and I thought the one he showed me was the watch. The watch I ee here is the one he showed me. I recollect the officer Scotney coming into our room. My brother let him in. Scotney asked me if I had a watch. I said no ; and then he asked my brother if he had one. He looked confused, and attempted to reply. I interposed, and my brother then went to the pillow and gave Scotney the watch. He also brought him a watch case, and brought forward three duplicates, one for a watch, one for a ring, and one for a chain. I was surprised at seeing the duplicate for the watch, but my brother said the watch he showed me only came there on Friday morning. I did not see the watch in the course of Friday. I be lieve my brother was on intimate terms with Delarue, sometimes seeing each other two or three times a day Mr four days in the week. I recollect that my brother brought home some three or four pounds, and said that Delarue lent it to him. My brother was a schoolmaster, and could write very well. I don't know that this note is in my brother's handwriting, but it may be. He could write two or three hands. Cross-examined by Mr. CLARKSON—I saw Delarue for the first time about four months ago just at dusk. I have heard my brother address him as Mr. Cooper. My father and mother were aware that my brother had got money fro:7. Delarue. lam not aware that my brother had seen Mr. Delarue on the morning of the 21st. He said that he had not seen him. I knew that Mr. Delarue was anxious to get my brother a situation. I always understood that my brother was very much attached to him. I was working at home with my father as a shoemaker until past eight o'clock. I think that about twelve months ago my brother was paying attentions to a young lady at Hampstead. lam not aware that she was introduced to Delarue. His intimacy with her ceased about the month of June. I never knew her myself. I did not at any time press my brother for money. I would have been contented to h ave l et it re main till he got a situation. lam not aware that Delarue was in the habit of keeping a school. I did not observe any marks upon my brother's dress or person on his return on Saturday morning. There was a light in the room. My brother is twenty-two years old in May. lam his younger brother. Cross-examined by Mr. CHAMBERS—I cannot say how long it was before the 21st of February that Delarue gave my brother the ring for which the pawnbroker's duplicate has been produced Thomas Hecker examined by Mr. BODKIN.—I am the father of the prisoner. The prisoner boarded at my house in Charles-street. He was at home from four till about half-past, and when he went out he had on a hat and mac intosh. He said that he was going to get some money that he had previously told us off. He said that he had re• ceived a note from Mrs. Edwards, stating that she weuld be ready to accede to his request for a loan on Sunday night, and he went en the Friday instead. (The prisoner's clothes were p. oduced.) These are the clothes he had on on the Friday night. The ring I now see I found among the cuttings of leather, and it was given up to the police. I remember on the Saturday, after the Friday, seeing the prisoner's shirt. It was torn, and he accounted for it by say. ing lie had been f ro li c ki ng the night before. I did not know Delarue. I knew that he went by the name of Cooper, and when I spoke to my son about it, he said that he went by that name merely because he was eccentric. William Watson—l am landlord of the house, No. 17, Charles-street. On the night of the 22d of February 1 was in company with the prisoner and his father, in the latter's house, when I said, " This is a shocking murder at Hamp stead, and no one knows who did it." The father said, " A murder at Hampstead , what a shocking thing." The father then asked how it was done, and I told him that suspicion attached to three soldiers, who were seen in that neighbourhood. The father said, oh ! the cold-blooded rascals. The prisoner said, don't let us talk about that, it's a gloomy subject. Just then, the brother James came in and said that everybody was talking of a gentleman murdered at Hampstead, and a love letter was found in his pocket. The pri soner said, don't let's talk any snore about that ; I'll sing you a song ; then they sung a song. They afterwards sung hi a s me duet ; but before they did so, the prisoner showed shirt and coat, which was torn on the left a I f irst heard d. t of the He he had been romping with a parcel of girls. gave l information to murder Scotney Monday evening. Edward Scotney, examined by Mr. Bont in the T division, and in consequence ofius—inlfearmmeatiesnerl gean received from Watson, I went to No. 1 l e , ieg Victo A rsriap-eterrean came to got there about ten o'clock in the more ? hea He rd the..ecleoo;r,la,mndthleaspekreedenif. T l ho e m ai a d s l ll ee o p ck p e e r se li ) v , e e d u t h h e e v re e said to ) of the murder of Mr. Delarue at Hampstead? He said I have. And I said then I believe you were very intimate with him. He said yes; and I then informed him that I was a sergeant of police, and that I took him into custody on suspicion of the murder. I then went up to his room. His brother was there, and he desired him to get up and dress. I told him I meant to search for a watch which I believed belonged to Mr. Delarue. He said, "You may." His brother said, "Tell th e po li ceman the truth, Tom, he does not believe you." The prisoner then pe r pledge t wh c for h e i said m ad went to the pillow and gave m e th e watc h out.. He said he d h u a c d ecl ge t t hr it ee en ot F he ri r d t a ic y ke in ts for erninpgro toy h h He e n p g r e o d to Delarue. Francis Partridge examined by Mr. CIIAMBERS—I am an inspector of the A division. I went on the 25th of February with Scotney to apprehend the prisoner. I found in the prisoner's room a pair of trousers between the sacking of the bed, and a coat. I went on the succeeding day and made a further search. I found a shirt wristband, with a portion of the sleeve attached to it There were marks of blood upon it. I got a pair of trousers and waistcoat at 17, Charles street, Portland -town, where prisoner lived. There were marks of blood upon the waistcoat and on the left sleeve of the coat. I found also bottles co n t a i n i ng cer t a i n ki n d s of writing fluid and note-paper in the room at the father's house. I also found wafers marked with the letter F. 1 see that the wafer on this note is a d u pli ca te of th ose f oun d i n th e father's house. The note-paper also corresponds with that found by me. I received a sovere i gn an d a h a lf f rom th e p r i soner ' s father. Inspector Sliackell, of the Detective Police, produced the mackintosh found in the father's house. In consequence of certain information, I searched the prisoner's lodgings along with Inspector Haynes, and got, from the parents of the prisoner a shirt and pair of stockings, all stained with blood. i ._ .7': i I also found in the room the bill of the watch, produced find identified as that belonging to Delarue. Inspector Ilaynes. of the Detective Police, went with another officer and searched the room, where he found a coat button. He afterwards went to the House of Correction and ordered the prisoner to take off his coat. He found the sleeve stained with blood, and the left-hand pocket all bloody, as if the hand had been thrust into it. He compared the button found in the held, as also that found in the room with certain buttons torn off his coat, and they agreed. He also examined the prisoner's trousers and drawers, and die covered that the left knee of either was stained with blood. The prisoner had no wound on any part of his person. Cross-examined by Mr. CIARKsON—The buttons are of a very common character, and may be met with every day. Daniel Delarue examined by Mr. BODKIN—I live at 55, Whittlebury-street, Euston•square--I lived with my bro ther. I have been at the inquest, and saw his body there. The watch produced was the property of my brother. It had a gold chain, which he wore round his neck. I alas know the ring, which I observed him wear on the Sunday I last saw him. Susan Kitchener, servant at the house, 53, Whittlebury street—l saw Mr. Delarue on Friday, the 21st February. He said lie was going out, and would return in an hour and a half. He told me to keep his fire in. I know he had a watch, and I saw it on him about nine o'clock in the morn ing. I saw the gold chain hanging from the pocket as late as two o'clock. 1 should not know the watch. It was a silver one. James Euston, police-constable in the D divison-1 was in the cell with the prisoner, and he said, without my asking, that he wished to see the waiter of the Swiss Cottage. I told him he could see the gaoler. He did see him ; and, after he was gone, the prisoner said that he had gone to the Swiss Cottage a quarter of an hour after the murder, that he called for a glass of rum and water, and paid for it. He said also, " There, that Baldock did not know me; I was five-and twenty minutes in the field." That was just before the first examination. Sarah Ann Cox, examined by Mr. CHAMBERS—I knew Rocker on the 21st February. I had known him seven months. I did not see him on that night at all, nor for a month before. I did not see him romping with any girl in my company. Eleanor Edwards—l reside at 6, Bath-place. I have known the prisoner forabout ten weeks. He never made ap plication to me for a loan of money. I had no disposition to lend him any. By Mr. Justice COLERIDGE—I did not know any members of his family. _ .... James Fell, Chief Clerk at Marylebone Police-court, pro duced the examinations taken at that court, and the few words said by the prisoner at the close of each examination. The letter signed " Caroline" was also put in and read. This closed the case for the prosecution. Mr. CLARKSON then said that his Learned Brother, Mr. Ballantine, and himself had attended for the defence, at the request of the Sheriffs of London, but as the prisoner him self had expressed a wish to address a few wurds to the gen tlemen of the jury, he trusted their Lordships would allow him to do so. _ _ Mr. Justice COLERIDGE had no objection, and informed the prisoner that if he wished live minutes leizure before making his defence, he was at liberty to retire for that time. The prisoner said, "Thank yoe, my Lord, I should like just five minutes;" and so saying he turned away:and stepped lightly down stairs into the passage that communicates be tween the prison and the dock. On his re-appearance he maintained the same unconcerned and flighty manner that had marked his conduct up to this point throughout the whole of the trial. He advanced to the centre of the dock, holding in his hands three or four sheets of manuscript. He then folded his arms and stood for nearly a minute perfectly cool and impassable, as if waiting for silence to be restored. He leant over the dock and consulted for a moment with . some interval of greatestperson pointl:sei bCle calmness ourtarid aagnadindreNv composure.hhn himself with w of about a minute of painful suspense ensued whilst be stood turning over his papers. He appeared as perfectly col lected as any one of the witnesses who had appeared against him, and it was observable, from the steadiness with which he held the papers, that not a nerve trembled. In a clear, though a somewhat mincing, and evidently in a very laboured tone, he then addressed the jury in the following terms, reading from the manuscript : " I beg to read to your Lordships and to the gentlemen of the jury two statements that I have furnished to my counsel through the medium of my solicitor. I have very carefully perused the depositions against me, and I find nothing in them to the truth of which"—' [At this point the prisoner hesitated, as if unable to read the manuscript. He repeated, " And I find nothing in them." He again stopped and gave utterance to a subdued but impa tient expression, as if annoyed at himself for not being able to read more readily. After another lapse of nearly a minute he recommenced.] " I have very carefully perused the depositions against me, and I see nothing in them of a serious and weighty nature to the truth of which I object. I wish to communicate to you all I have to say as calmly and dispassionately as possible, and to that end I shall not attempt the least apology or de fence. I will state to you every circumstance connected with the depositions, leaving it for you to say whether they are consequential or not. The two grand questions are—how came my clothes to be saturated with blood; and, how did I come into possession of the property of the deceased? The former I can answer satisfactorily to my own conscience; but no thing on earth shall cause me to divulge it, at least on . this side of my trial. It were an easy matter for me to fabricate —to make a lie; but I will not do it; and to prove to you that I am so fur conscientious, I have amongst some prs vete letters here, which I have had conveyed to me since I came hither, one in which a desire is expressed to account for the manner in which my clothes were eo besmeared ; and the person in his devotedness to rise offers to forswear him self; but I would rather have this mysterious part of the affair remain as it is, by leaving it in the hands of my counsel. I know while doing so I endanger my own safety, but I have urgent reasons for doing so. If this gloomy affair terminate adversely, I die a martyr; if otherwise, by my taking a de fensive course, I live a traitor. This sounds paradoxical,pro bably, to your ears, but such is the fact, of which I excuse and pardon your disbelief until it be further evidenced to you. I will therefore quit this part of the subject with this remark : after such a painful and ignominious exposure of everything connected with my present and former circum stances, together with every vile and contumelious insult and misrepresentation, I can have no desire to survive the issue, be it ever so favourable to nay innocence. I am ruined inevitably and irrevocably, and I am too much the Englishman to fear death, whatever form it may assume. But more to the matter. The deceased, Dalarue, bad frequently offered his services to me in the way of pecuniary assistance. (I ought, perhaps, to have told you that I had known the deceased for nearly two years.) It was about six months after our acquaintance that he made the first friendly overture of the kind, and it was something like two months following that I ac cepted it. He at that time gave me 41. 10s., which was the whole of the con t ents o f hi s purse, accompa nied by the words, Hecker, never see me again if you once venture to return me thi s trifle; I am no friend of yours in your estimation if you view it as a l oan mere ly.' Last August I kept away from him for a month or live weeks, on account of the shabby co n diti on o f my apparel . He took it unconfiding on my part that I did not acquaint him with my embarrassed circumstances, and he then good heartedly insisted on my turning to the best advantage 51., which lie threw at me, wishing he could punish' me in the same way right on for a whole day. Such was the nature of our intimacy. I have had property belonging to deceased of considerable value. A large telescope—l should say worth 71. or e/.—also a smaller one, and an opera glass, microscope, &c.—all of which he lent me at different times, and which I believe are to be found at his apartments now. My parents, and several others, remember to have seen them. The deceased also entrusted me with a silver watch, a silver watchguard, and part of a diamond ring. The part which contained the diamond only remained. I had to dispose of them for 3/. 17s. The deceased was anxious to make up a certain sum of money by a given time, and I understood the request as a delicate wish for me to pledge the articles for him. 1 got them pawned at a Mr. Richardson's, Henry street, Portland-town, for the required amount. The de ceased gave me the duplicates, which I handed over to the officers when they searched my apartment. How I came with the watch and ring which the brother of deceased identified was in the following way :—ln our engagements of late deceased had often been half an hour behindhai:d. His watch, for some time past, had performed irregularly. He frequently struck it with his walkin g cane, in a momentary ill-humour, which accounts for the seconds pointer being gone. lie gave it to me to be cleaned and repaired for him, at the same time producing his ring, which had always been too large for his little finger, to he lessened, and for the brilliant to be reset, which it needed, in consequence of an attempt to prove its genuineness, which he effected by removing the brilliant from its setting, and striking it with a hammer, having first placed it on a stone fir that purpose. He had used all his influence towards putting me into a comfortable situation, but had failed until the morning of the day on which he was mur dered. I forgot to state that it was on this morning that de ceased gave the watch and ring to me. On that morning he saluted me in a pleasant air, and said he brought me good news he hoped. He then led me to think I should be a little better to do in a few days, but that he would acquaint me with more anon. He provided me at the same time with (what indeed I had for some time expected) 12b in gold. The deceased had so often lent me money that I was ashamed to mention his name again to my parents; I, therefore, forged a falsehood, and represented Mrs. Edwards as the donor. I was in possession of the money in the morning, and that ac counts for my positively assuring my parents that I might hhve it by calling on Mrs. Edwards in the eveni▪ ng. At seven o'clock in the evening of the Friday I went to the Swiss Tavern, and called for ruin and water. I stayed there nearly three quarters of an hour. There was . another man— apparently a gentleman—in the room during the whole of the time, to whom I read portions of t h e day's newspaper. A candle was on the table , close by me , while 1 was reading. It was a bitterly cold night, and . the fire was burning cheer fully. I stood in the front of it for some time. H- ad my a l awnt : ll - oe i clothes at that time been disordered . or bloody, the gentle man or the waiter must . have seen . it. The waiter remarked sa r ptv d ,r e eot r hct e eal d letea t tt h hfe e uel : r ri,t i e i h.rw n ie i ter) a ri e n t d onAo w eftnt a bet t releorrloandl left the lighted thle h fed i ttlpeauv,vhbeaelmuni public-house directedu anywhere e s m o n nit te yo at the inquest, after failing to identify me, that the person wash them, why suffer my clothes to remain as they were, ear the will ? But it is not my place to write in this manner. was committed, f or it l ay r . oad, whither I wa s going. in A m s y I path across the fields, i n a li ne with the spot where the deed IN a - p a p y ro t a o ch t e h d e H H a iun ve p rE s t t oc ea k d : held, whistling a merry tune, a policeman ran out from the hedge, and accosted me with the words ' Young gentleman, sad work liere ; here's a d ea d man. ' I i mmed i ate l y sca l e d the fence with him, and asked him if he was sure the man was dead ? The policeman (Baldock) said, ' There was no doubt of it.' I felt the pulse of the deceased. It was still. Ile remarked that the deceased was a young man. It was an awful spectacle, and we both wept. I felt quite si c k an d c hilly, an d t o ld th e p o li c eman I should shortly take some brandy. I proposed to him to do the same. I continued with him and the deceased, without offering to withdraw, for forty minutes. I told Baldock that some months back I had been in the habit of crossing ' the adjacent field from Hampstead several times in a week at a late hour in the evening, and that I usually carried a pocket stiletto as a life-preserver, which I showed him, asking him whether the possession of such an instru ment were illegal or not. He said he thought not. He re marked that the blade was very bright. Baldock asked the time of the night. I looked at the watch which has since been produced, and told him. Sergeant Fletcher and some four or five other policemen then arrived with a stretcher, Almost all of them addressed me on seeing me on the spot with Baldock. 1 accompanied the policemen, four of whom carried the corpse. 1 asked one of them if it were necessary for me still to attend them ; he said, if I could give no in formation, it would be useless. I had made an appointment to be in Portland-placethat evening. 1 found that I had al ready exceeded my time through remaing so long with Baldock. I left them with the corpse when I had got as far as Church-row, Hampstead, and hastened towards my desti nation." [This appeared to be the conclusion of the first sta tement, and the prisoner took up another paper. After a momentary pause, he proceeded :—] " I wish to explain to you as nearly as my feelings will suffer me, the nature of my present trial, and to show you, that to attempt an extrication out of my mis ery , b y a full disclosure of everything connected with this sad affair, would scarcely one of which was carried out to its extreme length, while +ll subsisted together in harmony, producing the happiness and welfare of the people. Who that recollected the struggle attendant on the Reform Bill, and the arguments regarding poirilar rights which were then brought forward, but must be surprised to see how the apparent consequences to be drawn fro m these arguments, had been checked by the good sense and the good understanding of the people. He believed that scarcely any person on either side of the House could have enticit ated before and during that great constitutional struggle, how rapidly the principles advanced during that time were checked in their action by the reflection of the sober minded people of England. He did not bring - this forward as a matter of controversy ; he took it for granted, that to a great event they were all agreed u; cn it as a matter of fact ; and, at any rate, it was good for his purpose to this extent, that it most not he signed as if everything apparently involved in this measure must of necessity- be carried into effect. Granted that this was an important measure—granted that it was a great to , n--that it might not have the effect of allaying agitation— still he believed that, upon the whole, the measure was called for by justice—that it was required by the state of the country; and that he felt that there was no principle on which he could t:.ke his stand in resis6ng it. He hoped, therefore, that th , s measure of his Right Hon. Friend, notwithstanding the great sacrifice of feeling and of prepossessions which it un doubtedly called upon the people of England to make, would pass into a law, aed would receive, if not the sanction, at least the acquiescence, of the country—that they would recollect the feelings of others as well as their own—that they would abate somewhat of their claims in deference to the law which boiled ' the people of the country together, and that they would sacri fice what was agreeable to themselves in the hope of benefiting the country. He had no occasion to detain the House longer. While he regretted that lie had been obliged to occupy their at tenion so long, he was deeply grateful to them fur the indulgence which they had extended to him. He would not mix up with this question any matter relating to hints, If personally as an indi vidual. It would be a bad compliment to the House if he were to mix up with a debate on interests so impertant matters so comparatively trivial as those which related to himself. He could rather with that his present position might induce the belief that he inAl formed an honest and impartial conclusion with regard to this measure, unbiassed by the prejudices. of position. He believed their best vindication would be to leave behind them words and vets which would convince posterity that they of the prestrit day and generation had laboured, with fallib'e judgre-nts but wi . h honest intentions, to consult the best interests of those whose social welfare was committed to their charge.—( The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst laud cheers.) The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY rose with Mr. D'lsraeli ; there were loud c. ies for the latter, but he gave way, and the Noble Earl proceeded to congratulate the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), after the speech of the Right Hun. Gentleman who had just sat down, at now having the support of every man who was worthy of the name of a states man.—( Hear, hear.) The lion. Gentleman the Member for Dublin had alluded to the want of Catholic petitions for this measure. The Hon. Gentleman had made a lorg speech, cha racterised by amenity of manner, and by language of which no one could have any right to complain ; but he wished to tell the Hon. Gentleman that what affected the Catholics of Ire- land affected also the Catholics of Enland—(Cheers)---that the Catholics of England rejoiced in any good that was offered to Ireland, and that they viewed with delight and gratitude the boon which was about to be bestowed on the Catholics cf Ire land by the Right Hon. Baronet. He must say also that the Hon. Member's speech was full of exploded charges against the Catholics, and of no doubt unintentional misrepresenta tions against Catholic doctrines and principles ; but the real point of the speech was to be found in the last sentence, wherein he declared that he opposed the grant, because he was opposed to th e C a th o li c re li g ion, and that was the real reason of the violence, and of the "No Popery" cry. The sole reason was this they said, " You are wrong and we are right."—( A laugh.) They denied, indeed, any desire to persecute the Catholics, but they were endowed with no friendly feeling towards them. They were inflmenced by a spirit which would have qualified them to become one of the knights of King Arthur's round-table : a spirit and a frame of mind which, a few centuries ago, would have made the Hon. Member for Kent turn him, and some other person turn the survivor, and that without any great loss to the country.— ( Laughter. ) But, to go back as far as eighteen centuries, sup pose the Hon. Member for Kent had been born an Israelite, and brought up an honest and conscientious Israelite, would he not, with the same frame of mind and disposition, have de sired to impeach the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, as the Hon. Member for Knaresborough now wished to impeach the Right Honourable Baronet?—(Laughter.) He did not wish to pick out the Hon. Member for Kent invidiously, but that Hon. Gentleman had attacked him, and charged him with being an idolator, to the great amusement of his Right Hon. Friend the Membrr for Dungarvan, who said he heard him with a feeling akin to love.—( Hear, and laughter.) The Hon. Friend of the Member for Kent, the Member for Oxford too, displayed a sacred spirit, which teemed to qualify him to be high priest of the Jews.—( Renewed laughter.) He was no latitudinarian. He was a Catholic in communion with the Church of Rome by conviction, by examination, confirmed by those Scriptures which the Catholic were accused of not being permitted to read.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But, holding that creed and profession, he did most strenuously abhor and repudiate religious persecution in every country, and under every creed.—(Cheers.) Whether in Great Britain, or in Spain, or in Naples, or in Russia, he fully abhorred and disliked it. —( Hear, hear.) He should not have done his duty if, before he sat down, he did not pay a tribute, though a most inadequate and humble one, but certainly a most unqualified one, of admiration, at the positions in which the Right Hop. Baronet had placed himself in bringing for ward this measure, opposed as he was by a great minority of his usual supporters. Calm and intrepid, the Right lion. Baronet bore up against the stream, firm in his determination, and supported by every true statesman in the United Kingdom ; and he trusted that he would not merely triumph in this Bill, but succeed in promoting the pacification of the empire. Mr. D'ISRA ELI and Mr. SHAW again rose together, and the calls, as before, were loud and general for Mr. D'lsraeli, and Mr. Shaw resumed his seat. Sir, said the Hon. Gentle man, I should not have intruded for a moment between you and the Noble Load just now, had 1 had the slightest idea that he intended to have caught your eye; but the amendment having been withdrawn, I had an idea, and that supposition is very general on ti.is side of the House, that we should not have been honoured,with any declaration of opinion from any gentleman on the other side of the House. But lam extremely glad that the Noble Lc rd has had an opportunity of expressing his opinion on the subject. I trust he does not for a moment imagine that I rise to say anything offen sive to his creed, which I respect, or anything offensive to himself and his co-religionists, with whom, in many respects, I sympathise.—( Hear, hear.) I come now to the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark. My first impression, when I listened to that extremely able ha rangue, was the question why the Right Hon. Gentleman had passed the gangway to deliver it. —( Hear, and a laugh.) It seemed to be worthy of the Treasury bench, of that Treasury bench which that evening he criticised. It seemed to me that while the Right Hon. Gentleman informed us that though he supported the present Bill, it was not for the reasons which were adduced by his late right hon. chief. Nevertheless, had he been in his positio r. and had he introduced the Bill him self, he might have brought forward, perhaps, unanswerable arguments ; and deeply sensible of what he styled the circum stances of the case, he might, perhaps, have arrested the flow of those petitions which he confesses has astounded him, but which next week he informs ns will astonish us still more.— ( A laugh.) But if I asked myself for a moment what was the necessity for the Right Hon. Gentleman passing the gangway to deliver that speech, ought I not rather to have asked my self the question, what was the necessity for the Right Hon. Gentleman to cross the House to deliver that speech? If those are the opinions the Right Hon. Gentleman entertains, how can he, so subtle a casuist as he may be, reconcile the course which he now pursues to that which he pursued when in op position ? Because, after all, what is the result of the very adroit argumentation and elaborate exposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman ? it is this, that the principle upon which the State has hitherto been connected with the ecclesiastical affairs of this country is worn eut.—( Hear, hear.) We must seek a new principle, says the Right Hon. Gentleman, and the Government which I hare left because I support it— ( Laugh ter)—that Government has discovered a new principle.— ( Hear, hear. ) But where is the new principle? He tells us that it is not now definitely and distinctly made out. He ac knowledges that the exposition of it is feeble, and, perchance, vague.—( A laugh.) It is not now complete ; we must look to futurity. But if this is the case, have there been no prior attempts to adumbrate this new system, and have no public men in this House raised their voices to support this principle and advocate this new settlement. Have they not been, in fact the foundation of measures brought forward by Governments which no lot ger exist ? And was not an opposition to those measures, however imperfect, or however partially advocated, the founda tion, not only of the late Opposition, but of the Conservative theory ?—( Hear.) I am perfectly ready to agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman that the relation which exists between the Church and State in this country is an extremely unsatisfactory one. I have had some opportunities for observation on this head. 1 have been a Member of this House now eight or nine ses sions, during a very tempestuous period, the principal part of which was expended in discussions arising out of that con troverted principle. I have read the Right Hon. Gentleman's book.—(Laughter.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman, in his argument, has made one great assumption. lie says—You have endowed the English Church ; you have endowed. the Anglican Church. Can you, in fact, refuse to endow the Roman Church ?—( Hear.) But have we, in fact, endowed the Anglican Church ? ( Hear.) That is the question. We know that there has been an alliance between the Church and the State ; and the very term " alliance" shows that they met on equal terms, and made an equal compact. But the Right Hon. Gentleman, with all his study of historical lore, and with that trained casuistry, which exceeds any historical knowledge, cannot place his finger on any page in history which shows that the State endowed the Church.—( Hear, hear.) You may regret it. The ecclesiastical power in this country has a large estate. You may say that it is predominant, and reason against the principle, but that it is a fact none can deny. We deal with it as we deal with the estates of the aristocracy. Parties may be divided upon that question of the landed in heritance of the country. But you cannot deny the fact. As practical men we deal with great facts in such a way as to secure the greatest possible benefits. But when we come to speak of religion a new question arises ; arid the whole basis of—l will not say the argument—but of the political expediency of the Right Hon. Gentleman, then en tirely fails him. 1 should like to know what principle you will lay down for the step you are invited to take. I know the Right Hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill, and I must make the sane apology as the Right Hon. Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade, for referring to bis speech, told us that upon this subject there were three courses open to us. I never heard .the Right lion: Gentleman bring forward a measure without making the same concession.—(Laughter.) I never knew the Right lion. Gentleman bring forward, not what I call a great measure, but a measure which assumes to settle a great controversy. in which there is a diflerence, with out saying that three courses were not open to us. In a certain sense, and looking to his own position, he is right. —( Laughter.) There is the course the Right lion. Gen tleman has left.—(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) There is the course that the Right Hon. Gentleman is following ; and there is usually the course which the Right Hon. Gentleman ought to pursue.—( Great laughter.) Perhaps, Sir, I ought to say that there is a fourth course, because it is possible for the House of Commons to adopt one of those courses indicated by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and then having voted for it to rescind it.—( Laughter.) 'I hat is the fourth course, and in future I trust the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) will not forget it.—(" Hear," and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman tells us he always looks back to precedents ; he comes with a great measure, and he always has a small precedent. He traces the steam-engine always back to the tea-kettle.—( Roars of laughter). His precedents are generally tea-kettle precedents. —( Renewed laughter). He comes here boasting If the principle of the measure to be submitted to our consideration. The Right Host. Gentleman has always Mr. Percival, or some old book from a dusty corner, to bring down and throw upon the table, saying, "You have admitted the principle. Confine yourselves to the details, Don't trouble yourselves about the first and second readieg, but reserve all your energies for the Committtee, because the principle is admitted." Now I deny that even, in the limited sense the Right Hon. Gentleman says, it is admitted. In the first place that was a temporary vote, and this is not ; but, in fact, it is a permanent one. But I will not make that the ground of opposition to the Right Hon. Gentleman. I will go to the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade; I am astonished that under present circumstances he seems in his moment so completely to have supplanted principles. I I I I 1 I erg '3 lO ,rits and the