The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-13 00:00:00

forces, comparing .this. period with the 26th George 111. to be 32,800 more now than at that period. The statement of the Hon. Member in chided the expence of the disembodied Militia for the year 1821, and excluded that expellee for 1792. This made a difference of itself equal to 4291. A . learned sage of antiquity had observ ed, that there were two, things over which the immortal gods had no power—past events, and arithmetic. The-Hon. Gentleman had assumed this power, which the ancients would not: allow to immortal gods. He objected to adopting the resolutions, because they were historically untrue. The information of the lion. Member seemed to be deficient; " a little learning is a dangerous thing." He recommended the -Hon. Member "to drink deeper." He understood the lion. Member was Chairman of a knot of self-appointed financiers, and that there was a regular establish ment of clerks to prepare this sort of motions if so, the Ifon. Gentleman ought not, to be consi dered responsible for the accuracy of his state meats ; but he 'really thought that the clerks ought to be reprimanded. for not doing their duty faithfully. -He had a good mind to move for re turns of the salaries and emoluments of the whole establishment, in order to 'render the neglect of th e clerks the more conspicuous, as he had no doubt that they were most liberally paid.—(Hear ! ' f ruin the Ministerial side ; Move ! from the Op position side.)-He would content himself, how ever, with moving-, not for the return of clerks and their salaries, but the previous question. Mr. HumE defended the statements of his re solution. He maintained that there were for the present establishments 125,000 men kept in arms exclusive of regular forces. He would ask the House if the objection was very valid against his resolutions, that they stated the increase of rea-u -lar forces to be 32,000 ; because, as the Noble Lord maintained, the actual increase was 35,000 ? lie took the Noble Lord's admission. After contending that his statements were made out in the most candid way, and that where there was doubt he had al ways given it against his argu nen t; • he observed,. that as to an establishment of ,clerks he only wished the Noble Lord was as acmrate in his accounts as he (Mr. Hume) was in his state /heats, and as economical also ; for then hi) office would not cost 60,0001. per annum. He had no want of assistance, in the preparation of his pipers ; and when lie had he 0141 d get it of a much better quality, and at a cheaper rate, than tl'c clerks in the office - of the 'Noble Lord. Again, lie con tended, that there were 35,000 more regular troops - , and altogether 123,000 men in arms more than were kept on the establishments or 1792. lie invited the House to adopt the Resolutions as , a pledge for enforcing economy in the departments. After' a few words from Mr. TREMAYNE, the House divided— Por the previous question Against it 74' Majority —24 On the motion of Lord PALMERSTON the House then resolved itself into the Committee of Supply. Lord PALMERSTON then said, that he would not trespass on the time of the House by ex pounding minute details. They would probably he canvassed by Hon. Members, but as he did hot know to what parts their observations would lie applied, lie would content himself wit'i the ( :.PPortunity of replying to them. He would " 1 /Ply g ive an outline for the consideration of the lie use. Th e principal .features of the p Tsent 41 /mates were a reduction of the establish iients a ud a general diminution' of expence. They W ould prove that wherever reduction could take Place Government had been zealous in enforcing 1 . 1 ; and where, as in a few instances, there was 'hcreased expence, the House would give them . credit for tile dispositiOnao reduce, and consider t hat in ',fume instances the increase took place in co nsequence of circumstances over which Go e`;ninent hadno controul. The principal reduc v - • " I °i' had taken place in the veteran establish, rnents. They were set -up, as the House well knew, in a time of alarming and imminent dange r . The Government pledged themselves 10 their reduction' in a time of peace.----: They had thus proved themselves faith ful to their. pledge, and had besides shewn that th e y were worthy of the confidence which tha House had placed in them, by voting t 'stimates beyond the expenses which would ac tually be incurred. There would be a reduction of 9060 men in the veteran establishment's which wou)al cause a saving of 144,0001. The ex- Pence of clothing had been incurred for another Year, or the Saving would have been greater. The entir e reduction of the la - nti farce would cause a tl iminutiOn of expence equal to 374,000/. This be chiefly effected by the disbanding tile ;. 13 ° 0 veterans, and by applying the expences of n ose establishments, according to a recominen ;Um of the Member for Corfe Castle, to the be e rhit' la services. On the staff there would . diminution of .70001. by reductions in `://ernsey and Jersey . and Ireland. On the 'Public departments there would be a dirninu *ollof 17,0001. On the expences of the volunteer , c , ° !llsan increase of 19,0001. Taken altogether ;;ere Atzifuld be a diminution of 367 , 0001 . On 'expenses of Indian troops and the relative " t al , ilishineirts there would be a diminution of 4 ' 5001 .` ithe Military College, of which 4 )8001•11 m l : b een i-ncurred', the real saving for the Year would be '4700/. On the pay of General Officers a diminution of 4,500/. On the f ill pay retirements of military officers, in- consequence of the reductions, there' would be an increase of 45,0001. On the half-pay there was a diminu tion. On the Chelsea and Kilmainliam Colleges a diminution. On the Royal IVlilitary.College a diminution Of 3,2001. On the Widows' Pen sions, in consequence of the law lately passed, • :Mowing them to retain their pensions aftei mar -6,000/.‘ The total reduction of men amounted to 9,800, the -consequent reduction of charge 145,0001. in round numbers. The Mem ber for Abingdon wished the House to confine the estimates, according to the ad v ice of the Fi nance Committee, to the grants of 1817. His Lordship stated the total supplies for 1817, the details of which he recited to be 8,700,000/. The supplies sought for the present year were— Orttinarie. Extraordinaries I ,400 000 Commissariat 401 569 IAYt3S:I I gxrentes..„ „ , 237,500 making a, total of about 8,4g3,000/.: a sum leSs than the Surri total for 1817 by 266,000/. SOCh were the affects 'Of the contidente which the EEouse had placed in Government, by teftising tug allow the instruction to go to the Committee, which had been •proposed with a view to narrow ing the setyices. :A comparison of the two years, 1817 and 10.1, would exhibit a,saving on each of the items to the following amounts On Ordinaries • L. 144,904 Extraordinarlis Commissariat • 74.000 Expenefes Of flarraci s Irish Yeomanry Clothing (Laughter.)—Of course lie .did not reckon this expence as among the necessary services for the year, hut there would be an actual diminution of that expence in. this year compareid with the last. On the veteran battalions before mentioned there would be a saving of 80,0001. ; a diminution of 40,0001. on the' expences of militia training—al together bringing the estimates for 1821 within those,of.lBl7, by the sum of 707,000/. Whether or not.these reductions would satisfy those who were most earnest. in requiring retrenchment, he could not say. .They would be enough, however, to satisfy the House .that reduction and economy .were the main objects which the Government had in view. lie begged leave to reply to some observations contained in a former speech of the lion. Member opposite ; these observatiOns were formed chiefly on a comparison between the Esti mates of this year and those of 1792. He de nied the propriety of adopting 179'2 as a standard for the expences of this, and rejected all deduc tions made from such an argument. The internal situation of the country—he did not mean it in a civil sense—made it impossible to dispense with such a force as that of 1792. The number of public works erected during the war required additional attendance to prevent •dilapidations and expences of repairs. The vast accumulation of public property in every quarter of the country, in the way of stores, required to be effectually guarded. • The extension of colonial and foreign possessions required angmented forces to pre-' serve them.. There was nothing in the circum stances of 1792 to make the Estimates of that pe riod applicable to. those of 1821. In 1792' the establishment, including -officers, amounted to 43,578, according to the statement. But it is not fair to state that this was actually the .esta blishment; for; according to the Journals, it appears 'that there were 16,000 men more than that'Estirnate. At' present the establish ment of the new, Colonies is 15,299 men ; and when the House is au-are that this is for- the garrisons of Malta, the ,lonian Islands; Ceylon, and our most valuable pos sessions, for which we have made the greatest sacrifices, which are the most important in a mi litary, a political, or commercial point of view, they would, he was sure, consider that it was not too much ; because, although not at war, we should be prepared for any sudden emergency, and nothing short of this would at all answer for the purpose of preparatory defence. In the old Colonies there are 2614 men, including officers. In the lonian and Leeward Islands, and New South Wales, there has been a great increase since 1792, and this increase .must necessarily occur. The population has greatly increased, by the. number of persons sent out, of a character extremely difficult to govern, and therefore the increase is necessary. The estimates of Ireland he should leave to his Right lion. Friend the Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Grant), and he was sure the House would find they were not' greater than. that country required. In Portsmouth, Plymouth, Chester, Hull, Jersey, and Guern sey, there was an excess of 4839 more than in 1792. With respect to regiments quartered in foreign stations, he wished to state, that the only way to send out relief Was to send out whole re giments. In every regiment that returns home there is a considerable defalcation, in consequence of which the expence to Great Britain of refit ting these regiments is very considerable. It will be admitted by all persons that have attended to these matters, that it would be advisable that these regiments should conic home every ten years ; now, according to that system, there should at least 5,200 men go out annually. This statement, he trusted, would satisfy Gentlemen that there did not exist a greater force than is necessary to accomplish all the purposes that would be desirable. The Hon. Gentleman con tends that the regiments should be established on -the system of SOO_men each. In considering thew establishments, three things- should be taken into consideration : Ist, the regiments should be fitted up on the. most economical principles; 2d,, the regiments should he fixed, and in their present condition efficient ;. 3d, their organization should be such as to afford the power, in case of a sud den war, to fit them up quickly and cheaply.— En the year 1792, the regiments barely consisted of 400. They were in fact quite inefficient. When a war broke out they were obliged to send detached.coinpanies to different regiments, and in fact,-so low an establishment could never be aug mented at the beginning of a war with .any effect. When you add a parcel of raw recruits to a regi ment- it partakes of the character of the majority,. land becomes, in point of fact, a young regiment. ,He therefore thought that the regiments now pro posed of 650 the most efficient, and he trusted that the House would be of opinion that the establish-. ments, as they are at present arranged, did not de serve their censure. But says the Hon. Gentleman, in some points, at least, it is objectionable—the Life Guards, for instance. But the House would find that they are not greater .now than in 1792. En fact, it became a question whether it were ex.- pedient to have any troops on more advantageous conditions in respect to tank and pay than others. He was of opinion that it would be an advan tage to have those troops, immediately about the person of the Sovereign, in a more advantageous station ; and it would be for the House- to de cide if there were any thing in the character of this regiment, of valo it or bravery, that en titled them to these distinctions.—(hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman has stated that the price of. corn • is now reduced to the price of 1792. That may be, hut other articles are by no means .reduced in the same proportion. Nei-• ther the price of meat, nor the price of apparel , are at all reduced to that level, at least'as far as he could learn. With regard Co the .Pay - Of ;of ficers, he was sure the House tritist be a*are that it was frentiently inadequate to meet All - the 'ex; pencet . neCessarify attendant Omi the discharke of their Military duties:—( Hear, liQar)—and if there were tint an over-ruling necessity from the ethbar rasSed state of the country, he must say.; that after a., long .war, after these gallant nielm had rescued the country by their heroic exploits from perils • and dangers, the Hon. Gentlenien had chosen at least an ungracious period for bridging forward their complaints—(t 4 Hear, hetti-;" from the Opposition) ;—and he was cure that a Bri tish house of Commons Would never sanction such a measure.—(Cries of ‘c• hear, hear:")—ln 1802, the-first half year of the Estiniates of the foreign staff were 55,0001.; the second half year 20,0001.; making in the whole 75,0001. But Gentlemen seem 'to have taken the Es-timates of -1803, and not of . 1802.; and he thought that Gentlemen would perform their duty to that House with little advantage, if they took their Estimates for the • following year from the year past. With respect to • 1792, The staff that was then presented for never did exist ; and unless we were prepared -to go back to the old military discipline, or rather no discipline, they must feel that there could be . no fair comparison instituted between 1792 and the present times. Some are of opinion . that the army is too large ; others, that there should- be• no army at all. He did not understand the meaning of either of those two propositions ; but this he thought, that it would be setter to keep no army at all,:,unless it could be kept bet ter than in 1702. There was no order, no discii. pline then observed ; and such was the irregu larity that then existed, that he feared very much if the lion. Gentlemen were so anxious t o o bt a i n the estimates of that day, as 'Alley are at present, they would have found it much more difficult to see them. The Ilon. Gentleman next comes to the public departments, and here he says a consi derable increase has occurred since 1'792. Uqques tionably there did ; but a considerable reduction has taken place since 1814, and if - they com pared the Estimates of that year with, those of the present, they would .find that there is a saying of 80,0001. a year, which will spew at least, That if there has not been a reductiona time (lloo.gyteqrllttenriesnot and dime all i n th e i r g ha r7 e t a a t s te n i m l i d g e h d t ) s e e • d d u e l s o i u re sl d y , , power. But he again proteSted against any com parison with 1792. There was nothing in which they could with propriety be compared. The system was different.—(llear, from the Opposi tion Benches.)—There is not the smile regularity nor the same accuracy.—War.)—He took no credit. to the Government for khat : it wasdone by that House. The house attend e d t o th e affairs, and the. Government was compelled to do their duty.=(ilear, hear ! from the Opposi tion Benches.)—Gentlemen cheer on the-oppo site side, as •if they took the sole *credit to the M . but we cannot make bricks without s t r aw, and it was a little too much for Gentle men to come down to the House with whole quires of motions under their arms-----(liear !)—and cry out for accounts in a hurry, and having got these. accounts, complain becaus,e,Aey are not balanced with 1792. This conduct' was quite not with any sound principles of economy. The IToa. G entleman complains of the superannua tion and retiring allowances as being too large. But lie was sure the House would feel that some liberality should be shewn. When we are re ducing our establishments, and turn off persons after 20, 30, and 40 years servic, after.havin , spe and o a t rtel tlisc best m r of f t hrdays i t t period m ‘ l v t public eu theyservice, and rrrne un f‘itvitfloi for other ti,elit, ' , o r t a fi l c i e it liberality of of a wouldgr great a i a lt..: quite o inconsistent tt them a liberal allowance. The Noble Lord then made an allusion to the Duke of York, who un dertook the management of the army from the most pure and disinterested motives ; aad any one that will compare the state of thearMY now with what it was before. he undertook the ma nagement of it will feel persuaded, that, were it not for the exertions of that illustrioos individual, not all the valour of the Duke of Wellington, nor the bravery, of the British ar nv, would have been able to place the country in the situation. in which 'it is at present.—(hear, hear?)—The Noble Lord concluded by moving the first reso lution— " 'I 81,0;8 men be the standing tare *of Great Britain and 1i eland, exclos, ye of the troops for India and the Colo nits, for 1821. . Col. D.tymcs defied any man to decide whether the statements of the Noble Lord, o: Mr. flume, were the most correct ; but he would say, that .his IfOn. Friend's statements were substantially cor rect. It was hiS intention to move that the Chairman should report progress, aid ask - leave fo sit again, in order not to impede time public business, but to move for. a'Select Committee to inquire intolhese extensive' and important details. The Committee would have to inquire into what he would contend were prima.facie. cases of abuses, and - probe them, amid sift them to the bottom. How could they:get at an opinion as to the num ber of men required for particular garrisons with out bringing Officers -. from all parts of our Euro pean diminions, to examine them at the bar on those points. They could not tell the reductions in various departments, because they had not the Estimates before them. lie • compared the • amount of the present Estimates ; of this year with those of .1819, which _shelved an in crease of 69,000/. and yet this was called a. reduction. The permanent. charges amount ed to 149,0001. over those of . 1819. Was this not a matter which required inquiry ?. Every part was now studded with Barracks, and in all cases, where the Civil Power used formerly to be employed, there was now nothing but calling in the Military. lie could show that a considerable reduction might be made in our military establish ment without danger to our colonies. Would any man say that a standing army, amounting to nearly 100,000 men, was 'necessary in a time of profound peace ? Was. this a time, when time peo ple were bearing their burdens with unexampled patience, to increase the, already intolerable weight of their-burdens ? Such an army- was not necessary among a people who took no advantage of-the drawing the troops to the metropolis dur ing the Queen's investigation—not even in those distrkts.— confelided, that I .l ;luctionsl - 4isllt be Made in the number of trooti,l ,in the MAiterranean; in North Atheriea, the-West Indies, ?t: Helena; Itt (• In 1789, there were but .18 reohneniiiif cavalri!'; there were noht Reductions, made to the amount of 10,00,0 men., without ihjtiry to the public service. In the cavalry there might be a saving made. to the amount of 62,000/. would. appezil to any military man hi. the tlouSe, whether_ the Waggon Train was of any use in time of peace. Supposing every cavalry regi ment to move at the rate of 100 miles in a • change of stations, the country .was -at the ex, pence of 41. 'a mile. He wished a reduction of 15 liattalidns to be made in the. Regulars which would be tin amount of saving of 375,0001., without reducing the Veterans at all. He wished also the second Majors to be reduced ; and altogether his saving over that of the Noble Lord would amount to 181,000/. He also, wished • a greater number of Officers to be put upon half-pay ; but that wherever a vacancy in the Army should occur, it should be filled up out of Officers on half-pay. He intended to rodve au Address to his Majesty ? , that he 'Would be pleased to give no one a commission hi his Army-iiht officers on half-pay. There was scarce ly a department in the Army where he did not see the, possibility of making salutary reductions. The amount of salaries in the year 1796, ih the office of 'Secretary at War, was only 29,000/. t was now above 49,0001. ; and he would ask, it that did hot demand inquiry. He called on every friend of economy to vote for this Committee of Inquiry, which he should propose to be composed partly of those opposite, those on his side of the House, and those of no party at all, Thus th.. Committee would be fairly and impartially form,- ed. Ile then moved that the Chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Mr. D sWiON said, that in the present state of the country, nothing but the most rigid economy, and even parsimony, could avail. 'T -he sum of 6 . ,600,0001. was much too great for, the expendi ture of the Army. It was impassible to go on under such a system ; and economy was in no branch so desirable as in the expenditure of the Army. , Ile must declare that a great reduc tion might be made in the Army of Ireland. That country was now in a state of complete tranquillity, and there was every reason- to be lieve that state of tranquillity would continue ; `20,778 nten was too great a force for that country ; as there was a Yeomanry force that could preserve the public tranquillity. If it was said; that such a force was to be kept up with a view to a future war, he most say-, that the country was unable to go to war; or,,in the event of a war, he trusted the country would rely on its naval . force. The Trade and Agriculture of the coulltry was in a most distressed state, as appeared from the Peti tions on the table. Ile had heard with alarm some opinions delivered on the subject of the National Debt. One Hon. Meniber said, that it was impossible to pay the dividends ; another said on that subject that ad impossibile nemo te r:dare—This conflict between the commercial and the agricultural part of the country was such as ultimately to threaten a civil war. Though he ,was - not prepared to support the motion of the lion. Member, he wished.that a further reduc tion, had been made. : • Mr. Maeno N ALI) said, that the impression made on his mind by the speech of the lion. Member for A bpr,leen had not been weakened by any thing he had heard from the other side of the House. Ile was very sot-1y he could not share in the tone of self-gratulation assumed by the NOble,Secre- - tary at IVar. Ile hailed with much satisfaction that the Noble Lord referred, to 1792, as on a former occasion he had -said a reference thigh; as well be made to the Saxon HeptarchY, No one had contended that the year 1792 was to be the standard of the expenditure of the present year : all that had been said was, that . we should look to that year in the expences'about to he in curred. On •:the •subj - ect of the half-pay not much was to be said ;• tint God forbid that faith should not be kept -with those who had spent the prime of their-lives in the service of their coun try ; but in this-and any other class, faith could only be kept by aoystem of strict-economy. lie firmly believed the reduction to the amount stated by the Member for Aberdeen, was perfectly practicable. It had been said that the pay of the soldier was double what it had been' in 1792 ; but the - pay of the soldier should bear a propor tion to tha wages of the labouring part of the com munity ; and the same proportion did not take place in their wages. The value of money had, by the measure of- the resumption of cash-payments, risen 20 per cent.; and he thought that the increase which had taken place on account of the depression of the currency, should - be done away, and a dinzi-. notion of 10 per cent. might thus take place. On the subject of our forces abroad, and in the Colo nies, the superiority of our Marine rendered a small military force necessary. Did the Noble Lord see no- risk from an excessive expenditure He did, not undervalue the importance of the Colonies ; though, at time same time, he must re collect that they were free from that load of taxation which pressed so hard on the Mother Country. It had been said by' a foreigner, that the moment England got a colony, she raised it, -in point of expence, to the state of an empire. The expellee 'of the new- colonies was now greater than that of all the colonies before the war. The force df the garrison of Gibraltar might dis pense with any other force in •the Mediterranean. The remaining class of Estimates was our forces at home. • The force-of the country amounted to from 48,000 to 50,090 regular troops, exclusive of the yeomanry and the veterans lately called out without the authority of Parlia ment. If the system of taunting the people should be persevered in, not ten. times the. actual force would be sufficient to maintain the tran— quillity of the country. if the affair of Manches ter was meant as - an experiment on the patience of the people, that had amply succeeded ; as also if it was meant to skew what a small military force could disperse the largest unarmed- multi tude. Amidst ail the alarms spread by Ministers and their adherents, they - disbanded the 11,000 men that they had raised without necessity, and then took the credit of economy.. One point •, • must flitide to, a phenomenon in . Police of the Country unheard of before, that in tbi fey+ ektsei of thischi'ef ilgLitipst . the Stat; not a spy but tni cormnon with the GoveinMeilt; had been einpidyed, and . the Se cret CoMtnittee Of I clt had declared that tiler{ appointed ti dicOer the ploti of the disaffected had•beeti ittive histiglitors: The_ recilt case of Franklin slidsyed the extent 16 vi•hich this sys 7 teni had been carried: But it was. not too late to titre the evils which the conduct 6fMinisters caused ; and, aboe all, flinch could retreilitnent, especially in Ireland. Tice mates appeared 'to be frained with a View t 4 possibility at least of reothing military operAtions dji the Continent. But he, mUst protest Adainit such a possibility. The expellees of the war had amounted to I . OUO millions; and after such effOrtSi the country would, at least, require•a,cynttirjr of repdse. He Would not appeal to . the N'oble . Lord ,(Castlereagh) who, from . ‘vititGer=. man Diplortiati; Wits spoiled as a British PO tician. He shoUld,nioVe a redUction of 10,4) men in the force to be kept up. Mr. C. GIANT concurred in the opinion tF.j.t Ireland was quite tranquil ; only a feW months back, *het i he had asserted that Ireland would continue tranquil, his lion. Friend had aimed his shafts at his }lead; and launched hi§ philippics at Mini Init notwithstanding all tfie: predictions of his lion. Friend, he now atinftb.d that Ireland was trangtill Ile (Mr. Grant) was as anxious as any man could be, that the "force ht: Ireland should be diminished ; but that must lie gradual.; and the force this year in Ireland was 3000 mec► less than in the last year . The priu= ciple of reduction was to be maintained; bUt that reduction must be /tradUal. But the lion. Geri tlemin (Mr. Dawson) had not pointed otit the, practiCability of a single reduction. Ile (Mr. Dawson) should have std in what part of the Military - EstablishmOlt a reduction could take place.—(Loud cheering.) Sir H. VIVIAN lamented that in l'mc2 the country had not a greater disposable force, as part of the disastt.is of the first year of the war Might have been avoided. The events passing in Europe made the keeping up ,of a considerable force necessary. In the cavalry the, reductio.t. should be confined to _horses alone, and the ske letoti regiments ought to be kept up.. The half pay of many Officers was not more - than the in- terest of money paid for their commissions. The. Medical Board had been exonerated from all blame, though he thought the expence of. the Optha!mic Institution should be contracted': Mr. C. HuTcutssoN said, that a base con, spiracy had been formed against the character of Sir W. Adams, though he (M - r. 11.) had made no charge against the Medical Board. Sir'll. VIVIAN, Mr. BARHAM, and Mr. Daw- SON, severally explained. • Mr. BERN ILL said, that the motion of his Hon. Friend . was for the appointment of a Committee-to inquire if further reductions were practicable. His' side of the House would allow a-short Mutiny Bill, and a Vote for a certain number of men. Mr. BENNETT could not.vote three millions and a half of -money, and 80,000 men, without discus sion. One thing had been kept out of view, whether ti,ie.country could pay s u ch a f or c e . lie was firmly of opinion it could riot. The Hon,. Member then read the opinion of the Committee of 1817, recommending an approximation to the low expenditure of 1792; and in that point Qf view he should vote for the redaction of the mi litary force by 10,000 m , n. Should the liouse tell Ministers that they would not vote such,a force the Estimates world be reduced'; and he conceived 15;000 men would be quite stillickent for Ireland. The proposed reduction could be made at home, without affecting the Colonies. There were 51,000 . liilitia and. 31,000 Yeernanry Cavalry, and 8000 infantry, and the whole amount _of force wa§ 168,0 W in,Great Britain, loopoo of whom could be immediately called into action, and the rest in - a very short space of time. He hoped for the support of the Memlier for Corfe Castle, from what. he had said on, a former occasion.- He could not-see why a force should. be kept up to protect, old naval stores; as the Marines were sufficient for that purpose. Great establish ments created discontent, and that discontent was made a pretext for a large establishmeut. Lord CASTI.EREAGH would -first state :the mil:- tarp grounds on Which the numbers Were pro posed. The increase for the old colonies was only 2000 more than in 1792, and the number for the new colonies was not objected to. The state of Naples had nothing to do with the num.. beis proposed to be voted. The Noble Lord proceeded to comment on the proposed redaction of 10;000, and contended that such a reduction could not be made consistent with the public ser vices required from the army. The 10;000 raised tWO years ago were now reduced, Ahd ,nit to be found- in the Estimates. The force now in our Colonies was not more than sufficient for their protection. The army at home was not more than 29,000, and if that sum was now to he reduced 10,000 more, it would not lerive 20, - 000, a number .- not sufficient to make the necessary change with the Colonies, ,to say- nothing 'of the safety and security of ourselves at home. yllo contended that with the recnl!.ection of the re cent disturbances in various .parts of the country, to. make a reduction of 20,000 men in one veuri and to ledve the Executive with only 20,000 dia-' posable force, would be to risk‘the safety of'the Empire. The Honourable Member , for Aber deen had talked loudly of reduction ; ar.d stated high sounding numbers as savings; sometimes - -3,000 1 0001. sometimes 4,000,000/. ; but the lian. Member had not pointed out any specific head On which any 'saving could be 'made. The House " was now in a Committee, and if the HotiourrEble Member had any specific reduction to propose;lie had the opportunity, and the Committee Could now dikuss it; and if the Honourable Mem .ber could point out any way by which a greater saving than that pr o p o s e d, cou ld h e made, lie (Lord C.) would adopt it must zealouSly. The ' lion. Member, however, should recollect that the . saving proposed to be made was 1,101,0001. which - , would' bring the EStinvites . within thoie,.:9f 1818,., and within 86,0001. of the Estiiriate're comthended by the Finance Committee in 1817. The Noble Lard then adverted to