The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-13 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT, MOUSE OF LORDS, ALtncit 12. Mr. Johnston presented Accounts respecting Stationery, furnished to the public departments in Ireland ; and 11r. Scott, Annual Accounts from the Chamber of London. Ordered to lie upon the Table.;--Hespecting the former, The Earl of DARNLEY said, be would select (the papers being eery voluminous) such parts of them as bethought it necessary should be printed . for'the use of (he House; • PetitiOn's were presented by the Earl of Mac clesfield from the Owners and Occupiers of Land of Chipping Norton, and another place, coin plakting Aglicultural Distress ; and by the Earl of Itosslyn, from . the Burgesses and Tionseholiiers of Kirkcaldy, complaining of disircss,,- and expreSsing disapprobation of the proceediii'gS against the Queen.—Ordered to lie upon,the Table. • • The;Lunatic Stock Transfer Bill, the Nova ScOtia Trade Bill, and thi New South Wales Duties Bill, wire read a second time. WOOL DUTIES. Lord CALTIIORPEI;Id Petitions from the 'Woollen INlanufacturers of Frome and Shepton Mallet, complaining of the additional duty on Ft)- reign Wool imparted. His Lordship stated, that the Petitioners felt a serious injury to their ma nufacture, resulting from this tax, as it prevented them from► working up certain description! of English Wool, to which it was necessary to have It description of Foreign. Wool, that could not now he obtained at a reasonable price, on account of the heavy duty. If these circumstances were correctly stated, they presented a striking illus tration of the impolicy of sustaining the interests of one class of individuals at the expence of those of another. lie was aware that this subject had been under the consideration of the Noble Earl opposite, who was of opinion that no relief could, under the circumstances, be given; but he trusted that, if upon further consideration, the Noble Earl should adopt a different view, he would not hesitate at once.to grant that relief, which Was so anxiously sought by the Petitioners ; and it should also be taken into considera tion, that the aLTriculturists now felt that the duty operated injuriously towards them, as it impeded the sale of certain descriptions of their Wool. The Earl of Ltv,EarooL was desirous of saying a few words upon the question to which •his No- - hle Friend had adverted. It was true that he had had the subject under consideration, and 1 - :ad given an opinion declining-any interference; should he see any reason 'to alter that opinion, undoubtedly he should not hesitate to avow it. But it was right for him to state, that when the impOsition of this duty was first under considera tion, he had offered to the Woollen Manufactu rers -that no further duty should be imposed, if they would agree - to a free export of Woof. This they declined toassent to, and it was then thought right that-the Agriculturist,' who •was thus con fined to the home market for the sale of his Wool,. should have that protection, by means of ..an ad litional duty on Foreign Wool, which was in so runny instances granted to the Manufacturer. • Lord CALTKORPE was aware of the considera tions mentioned by his Noble Friend ; but these Petitioners complained 'of a peculiar hardship, arisitig from the amount of the duty being the fame upon all descriptions of Wool. Thus very inferior Wool, worth only - ild.per lb., was liable to the same Duty - as Wool. of a superior quality, and therefore - the -Manufacturers were in a great _measure precluded from obtaining it. He thought if , a-graduated scale of duty were intro duced upon five classes of Wool, the evil would, is a .great.degree, be • obviated.—The Petitions were ordered to' be referred to the-Committees on Foreign Trade. - • STATE OF IRELANI).----BANKS. The Earl of lh.Esiirox" said, it was not his in tention now to press upon their Lordships the consideration of the 'question of which he had given notice, namely, to . move for a Committee on the State of Ireland. In not doing se, he was actuated by several considerations. In the first place, several Papers for which he had moved on the 16th and 21st of Feb. were not yet present ed, and another Paper which had been. present ed, was not yet returned from the Printers. — There were, however, other" Considerations ; some of the queStions, which were materially involved in any deliberation on the State of Ire land, being' now under discussion, and it was, therefore, thought advisable, by several of his Noble Friends ; that' the question should not be brought forward for the present. lie understood, with regard to the agriculture of Ireland, that, the Committee Of the other House, which was Low_ sitting, intended to take-into_esonsideration, the averages, which certainly was of great im portance to Ireland, as, from the mode of mak ing up, and the consequences that resulted from' it, the agricul(urist, in Ireland was unable to pay his rent,—from the low price of his produce ; whilst the labouring poor, even with that - low price of the necessaries of life, were scarcely able to keep themselves from starving. Respecting andther part of the subject, thelinportation into this part of the empire of Irish "spirits, which was so much obstructed, he understood it was now under consideration by his Majesty's Go vernment. Respecting another most Material branch or the' subject,_ he meant the Catholic Wiestion, a Bill being now hr progress - in the other House, which he trusted wOurd come up to their Lordships; no dischssion could, of course,' take - place at present On that point. Under these and`other ctifisiderations, he declined, for the present, ,bringiiig forward; his 'motion, and shoWd therefore 'merely move that the Papers ordered - on the 16th and 21st February be ptesentedforthWitli.-Ordered, and also to dis charge the erder for summoning the Lords. The Marquess of tAN,SDO w thought it right to take this opportunity Of saying a few words with reference to the state olthe circulation in Ireland, in consequence Of the evils which had arisen from 'the failure of a number of banks in that part of the empire, which had so greatly di minished its public credit and circulating medium. He put it to the Noble Earl opposite, whether it would not be.highly expedient to repeal those restrictions which at present prevented more than a very limited number of persons from becoming partners in 'any banking establishment, and, the effect of which restrictions was to/ prevent per sons of real property from associating for the purpose of carrying on such concerns. -To do away these restrictions was the more essential in Ireland, where, from the want of capital„and the slender means of amassing it, persons could not be found within the limited numbers to carry on Banking Establishments with the requisite secu rity to the public. A striking exemplification of this evil was to - be found at this moment in the City of Cork, where lately three Banks existed, one only of which, and that the smallest, had survived the shock which bad swept away the other two, along with so many others, in different quarters. It must be evident, that this one Bank of very limited means was very insufficient for the Commerce of Cork ; but under the exist ing restrictions, it was impossible to find persons who could adequately carry on any additional Banks. To abolish those restrictions, would, he was satisfied, do much to relieve that distiess which was now so much felt in Ireland, from the want of that circulating medium, which might be furnished by Banks securely established. He was aware, that to bring about such a change, it would be necessary to have some correspondence with the Bank of Ireland, but he could not ima gine that the Bank of Ireland would object to such a measure. The absence of such restric tions in Scotland had been found highly benefi cial in Scotland, nor had the want of them pro duced in that part of the kingdom any evil whatever. The Earl of LuvraPoor. agreed that it would be highly beneficial to abolish the restrictions complained of, both in England and Ireland. Banks might then be established upon the basis of real property, by a number of persons, posses sed of property, associating together for that pur pose, and might thus extend great advantages to the commercial, manufacturing, and agricultural interests, without that fictitious credit which had frequently proved so injuriouq, or that insecurity which had produced-so many evils. The Noble Marquis, however, must be aware that this change could not be effected under the existing Charters of the Banks of England and Ireland without their consent. But when the time came for the renewal of their Charters, or whenever an opportunity offered, he certainly should be an advocate for removing those restrictions which prevented the establishment of Banks upon what he considered the only efficient principle, nor could he conceive it at all reasonable or just that Liverpool or Bris tol, or other great towns, should be deprived of those means of establishing Banks, which would be so advantageous to their commercial transac tions. The Marquess of LANSDOWN observed, that a proposition had been made to the Bank of Ireland, to establish branch banks in the different great towns of that country for the advantage of com merce, but which had been declined on the ground that they could not adequately direct the machi nery of such banks at a distance from the home concern. He could not, therefore, imagine that the Bank of Ireland, having so declined, would object to the removal of those restrictions, which prevented the establishment of adequate banks in those quarters where the Bank of Ireland had re fused to establish branch banks. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said the Bank of Eng land had also refused to establish branch bank; ; and he believed that the Bank of England and the Bank of. Ireland were both right, so far as regarded their own interests, in so refusing; but whenever the time came for the renewal of their Charters, it would form an additional reason for refusing to grant them that monopoly which they had hitherto enjoyed. The Earl of LIMERICK expressed his satisfac tion at what had fallen from the Noble Marquess and the Noble Earl on the subject of Banks, and observed, that the law in Ireland respecting Bankers was much severer than in England, with reference to any estates of which• they were pos sessed, and this additional severity it would be, he thought, well to get rid of. The Earl of DARNLEY hoped his Noble Friend (Lord Blesinton) had not abandoned his motion respecting the state of Ireland, as he (Lord Darnley) was certain that there was much in the situation of Ireland which called for the attention of Parliament. Whatever abuses existed in the public departments of England were aggra vated,or, if he might use the expression,caricatured in•the.public departments of Ireland : whilst the revenue was collected at so enormous an expence, that he might say, where any branch of the reve nue in England was collected at an expence of 10 per cent. the collection of it in Ireland cost 20 per rent. These and mauy other abuses loudly called for the interference of Parliament, and he hoped, therefore, that his Noble Friend would not give up his intention of bringing the subject under dis cussion. The Earl of BLEsrsrox wished to ask what was the amount of the unapplied surplus of the 500,0001. granted by Parliament in Exchequer Bills for the relief of Ireland ; and whether there would be any objectio❑ to lay before the House an account of it, and also the correspondence from different countries respecting the applica tion of it ? The Earl of LIVERPOOL said he could not now recollect the amount of the surplus,. but he had no objection to its being laid before the House, together with the correspondence alluded to by the Noble Earl. Adjourned till to-morrow.(this day). . HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKER took the Chair before 4 o'clock. A person. from the office of the - Chamberlain of the City of London, appeared at the Bar with an account of the payments made 111011 t lily to the Chamberlain for a number of years, to gether with a statement of the receipts and expenditure on aceonnt of the Orphans' Fund. The accounts wore ordered to lie MI the table. The Sheriffs of London presented a Petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons in Common Council assem bled, praying that they might he heard by their Counsel against any alteration in the Act of the 22 Ch. 11. for restrain ing the building of wharfs between London Bridge and certain distriets.—Ordered • to lie on the table and to be printed. CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION. • Mr. LANE FOX presented a Petition f ro m the May or . Al. dernatt and Burgeises of Beverley, in the County of York, azainst any further relation of the laws affecting his Ma jesty's Roman Catholic subjeets. Mr. LAMBTON said, he understood the Petition was not agreed to at any public Meeting, - lint had been privately gut up at a Meeting of let Aldermen, or rather of 8 Aldermen, and 4 Chambermen, or Chambernaids, he did not exactly know which—CA laugh)—The Petitton was ordered to lie on the table and to be printed. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. _ . .. .., , Mr. DODSON presented a Petition from the Occupiers of 400 Acres of Land in the Neighooni hood of Arundel, com plaining of Agricultural Distress.—Ordered to lie on the table aud to he printed. . CATHOLIC CLAIMS. _ _ Sir W. SCOTT presented R Petition from the University of Oxford, Against the repeal of the laws affecting bis-Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects.—Ordered to lie on'the table and to be printed. 'SCO F . (31 BUIIGHS. _ . Lord A. HAMILTON presented a Petition from the Burgh of Inver:try, in Aberdeenshire, to which he invited the atten tion of the House. The Petition was signed by almost every burgess in the place, and the Petitioners complained of the grossest mal versations and fra udulent misapplications of their funds by their officers. Though these abuses were as open and undisguised as day, yet they had no Court to Appeal.to— there was no la* inexistence from" which they could hope re dress. :They prayed t he. House to take these matters into their consideration. The Noble Lord then stated, that in 1817, the bugesses being ready to prove in a Court of Jmlice the actual embezzlement of a :mother - of specific stuns against certain of their officers, brought an action against these offi, cers in the Court of 'Quarter Session. The case was there long at trued, but at length the Judgei . of that Court declared, that though they saw the Burgesses had the strongest possible case against their officers : yet, as the matter did not come within the Jurisdiction of the Court, they (the Judges) could not interfere. This had been made a plea previously by the Magistrates. But not only slid not the burgesses fail in their action, brit they were also obliged to pay 1051. costs. The Noble Lord added, that the Petitioners came before the HUnse with the strongest possible claims, for they had detect ed abuses io their officers—were ready and able to substan tiate the existence of these alums, but yet could find ho remedy in any existing law. Ile hoped the Home would con sider these hardships, and concluded by moving, That the Pe be laid upon the table. Mr. HUME being requested to support the petition, would, after the statement of the Noble Lord. content himself **tits observing, that it was most respectably signed, and signed by every man in the bOrough. except the Magistrates against whom the complaint was made. Sir GEORGE CLARKE recommended referring the petition to the Committee sitting immediately on this subject, rather than suffering it to lie on the table. Mr. ABERCROMBIE was against this course, because, in that event, the petition would not then be printed, and the House not he in possession of the Material facts disclosed in it. Lord A. HAMILTON said, that he would follow a course which would answer both ends, for he would first move that it he printed, and then refer it to the Conuuittee.—The peti tion was then laid on the table, and ordered to he printed. ADM IRA LTY couKts IN SCOTLAND The LORD ADVOCATE brought in a Bill to regulate the Cowls of Admiralty in Scotland ; and On the question being put on it; being read a first time, Lord A. HAMILTON recommended a distant day fur the second reading, and also that in the mean time, the blanks be filled no, and sent. to F.cotland. . The Bill was then read a first time, and the second reading fixed for this day fortnight. Mr. Alderman BBIDGES presented a petiti-n front the Inhabitants of Bridge 11'ard. praying to be heard by Counsel against the Thames Wharf Bill, which was laid on the table. lI.CHEtiTER GAM„ Mr. Alderman WOO!) having moved for certain parish ac• counts of a person named Hill; in order to ascertain how great Ilk deficiency was, 'took that opportunity of replying to the insinuations thrown out against him on Friday night by •the Hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. A. Bariug)—namely, that lie 'bad taken the g•ioler'S report in speaking of the state of ll cheater Gaol. The Worthy Alderinan explained the cause of his gaol', to yiiit the Caul, which was that the City of Lon don baying 001 an iutention of building several Gaol•t, he, with Mr. Alderman Gootracre, Sir John Perring, .and an eminent Architect, .Mr. Dance, were sent as a deputation to inspect several gaols, and, amongst others, they vi'ited the gaols of Gloucester and Ilchester. It was said that whilst thCy were at dinner, they had received the Report, but be had only. this morning found the identical bill of what it cost the patty fur a lunch at Ilcbester; and the House would, per haps, wonder • that for a party in which there were five per sons, anl three of these London Aldermen, together with two servants, the wholeexpence was twenty-five.shillings.— A laugh.)—He wished the Hon. 'Member had been himself present. in order Mat tte might convince him by sbowinz him the hill of the expences. The Worthy Alderman .concluded by reading a letter from Sir John Peri ing, in corroboration of what lie had been stating, and confirming his assertion that they remained . t tvotiours inspect log 1 Icliester Gaol. Mr. F. BUXTON wait sorry the CVort:ty Alderman had not waited until be Hon. Member for Tannt on was in his place, who might then be enabled to reply to him. Fur his (Mr. Li's) part, not withstanding the assertion of the Worthy Alder man, lie could hardly believe that three Aldermen, Oth their weras, would lunch for twenty-five shillings at Ilchester. —(Laughing.) _ Mr. Alderman WOOD—" I have the hill in my hand." The SPEAKER interrnpted the Worthy Alderman, and in forited him that this discussion was irregular, as he did nut mearito follow it up by any motion, and as it had no reference to the inotion he had just nestle. The question was then put on his motion, and agreed IMPOR TATION OF FRENCH BOOTS AND SHOES, Nlr. BuTTERWORTH presented a Petition from the Cord wainers of Dover, complaining of the increasing Importation of French Boots and Shoes, whereby t he Petitioners and their families were reduced to the utmost distress; and that not only large quantities were brought in by the vessels to that Port, but that persons were employed in Dover, to take mea sures of families for shoes, and the orders were sent to France to be executed. Mr. B. stated th , tt he had reason to believe that. ibis evil was now become so alarming, as to call loudly fur the interference of Government to prevent it, as it must he obvium that leather and other articles might be procured at a cheaper rate upon the Continent titan in this Country, and of course,. if such' importation were allowed, it roust greatly increase the distress of Our own Manufacturers. lie instanced some other t rides that were in similar circumstances. Mr. B. WILBRAHAM eutifii wed the statements wade by his Hon. Colleague. ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS Mr. HUSKISSON presented a Petition from the Clergy of the Archdeaconry of Chichester against any further concession to Roman Catholics. Knowing the respectahility of many of the Petitioners, and feeling a respect for them all, he was sorry that he could not agree in the prayer of 'the Petitioners. Petitioners did not, howeyer, impugn the loyalty of the Ro man Catholics, but only stated that they feared any further concessions would endanger our best establishments-in Church and State. He (Mr. H.) was convinced such fears were very visionary, and it was from such conviction that he had uni formly given the Roman Catholics his support.—The Petition was then laid on the 'Table, and ordered to he printed. • Mr. BUTTERWORTH. presented a Petition against the Roman Catholic Claims from the Rector, Churchwardens, and undersigned 'inhabitants of the parish of St. Dunstan in the West, in the City of London. lie read part of the Peti tion, which was as hilloWs "That Resolutions have been prepared by the Committee of your Honourable House, and Pre now depending therein, which tend to invalidate the necessity of making the Decla ration' against Transubstantiation required by the - Statute -25th Charles Second, and the above-mentioned Declaration against Transubstantiation and Popery required byt he Sta tute 30th Charles Second; notwithstanding the provisions of such Acts, and of the said Acts of Union, imposing such De c:aratiuns as a qualification for beating any office or grant, or holding any office or place of trust under his Majesty, or for sitting or voting in either House of Parliament; and by which Resolutions the Oath of Supremacy is also propos, d to be materially altered by the qualification of the . word " spiritual," an alteration which can only have the effect of secaliening its force, and eieding its operation. "That as ,the two Honses of Parliament, as well as the Privy Council and the great Offices of State, are inseparably. connected with, and indu.nce the whole administration of the Government, any meature which shall hare for its object the introduction of Roman Catholics into the great Councils of the•nation (as your Petitioners humbly apprehend will be the effect of any 11111 (minded upon these Resolutions) will be manifestiv contrary to the spirit of the Bill of Rights, and subversive of the great leading principle upon which the. G overnment of this realm was settled at the Revolution: and yt;ur Petitioners contemplate such an event with great alarm, as theyconeeive it will leave the securities against the admission of Roman Catholics into Parliament, and places of great po litical trust and po:ver, wholly unavailing; and that such a measure will be inevitably succeeded by the deplorahle con sequences against which a solemn National Compact. and the Most valuable Acts of our Legislature, were intended to pro tect for ever the Monarchy and Subjects of this realm. " That as your Petitioners dread the effect of bringing into power; in ri country whose Constitution Government are essentially Protestant, those•who profess and act under the influence of a religion which has been justly characterized as affording " no toleration, or • peace, or security, to any. other communion," they deprecate the abrogation.of those. laws, or the relaxation of those securities which were thonht , necessary by our kriCestOrt Who well thew by painful ex perience the operation of that religion which the Roman Catholics themselves acknowledge to be always the sante, and which appears to your Petitioners to be at p- event in active and vigorous operation in this kingditm ' more especially since the revival; pby the present Po ) of • the Order Je suits, and the Estahlishment of an .xtetisive and well-en. , dowed College of that Order in the centre of this Protestant Empire. " That although the Declarations against ainst Transubstantia tion:m Popery contain only arenunciation of certain °pillions entertained by Roman Catholics. yet )our Petitioners consider that stick opinionk premot, merely speculative and dogmatical, as asserted in such Resolutions, but that they form the only sufficient test by which Roman ...athoilics are to be ascertained, and without which no Oaths are sufficient to exclude Roman Catholics from Parliament; and from situations of political power•, especially since it is a notorious fact that the Sovereign Pontiff, so lately as the-year 1809, by a solemn instruction to the Prelates of his Church, commanded them to distinguith between the passive oaths which may be taken, and the active oaths which may not be taken by the Roman Catholiesaif any heretical state, and declared that Al oaths. taken to the prejudice of the Chorch are null and void. " Your Petitioners therefore most humbly pray that the said Resolutions may not form the basis!of any Legislative measure to be adopted ley your Honourable Home. " And your Petitioners shall ever pray, &c." Mr. BUrrER WORTH stated, his entire 'concurrence with the prayet of the Petition, and said,ttuat having been unable Irma indisposition, to attend the late debates upon this sobject, and-as it might not he in his power to be preSMit'When it would he discussed on Friday next, he hoped "for the indulgence or the }louse, while lie briefly mentioned some of his reasons for concurring with the present Petition. With all possible re spect for the motives ,of those Hon. Gentlemen whii supported the Resolutions, he conceived them to be•grou titled on mistaken' principles. It was not because Roman Catholics held the doc trines of Transubstantiation, the adoration of the Virgin Mary and the sacrifice of the Mass, &c. that our ancestors exchnled them from high offices and seats in Parliament ; but on account of their intolerant spirit in civil id and religious affairs, ar their dangerous acknowledgment of a foreign supreme ju. is diction ores this country. The oaths •anti delineations, as the Petition" well observed, were a mere test to ascertain wins were Roman Catholics. Although this was not a sub ject of clamour out of doors, yet it would be much more deeply and lastingly felt by . the people of England than • the temporary evanescent" politics of the day. He con ceived that if the Bills now before the House should pass into law, they would transfer discontent from Ire land to the Protestant population of this country. as well as afford great dissatisfaction to the Protestants there.— The number of Prtitions on the present occasion might not be greh:, ;IS so. ;army bad been Aalready presented; and it should not lie forgott en that a Worthy Baronet (Sir William Curtis). Whose indisposition he (Mr. B ) greatly la meotrd, bad within a very few years presented a petition from the City of London, to which sixty thousand signat tit es with their respective addresses, were attached. Ile entertained no fear of the stability of the Protestant Religion, if it were separated from the State, because he believed it tube founded upon the principles of eternal truth.; lint as the Protest• ant Church and the State were in this country united, he should deeply lament •if what God by his Proridcoce had joined together, should by the adoption of the measures now helm e Parliament, be put asunder. • But if Itomari Catholics' were to change their intolerant prin ciples, and renounce the supremacy of the Pope, he, kr one, should hare no objection to their possessing political power, notwithstanding the peculiardoct rifles of their Church. The spirit of that Church seas, however, evident, front various documents issued by the present Pope. He should only in stance one, viz. the instructions addressed by this Pontiff to his Nuncio at Vienna, in the year•lBos, iu which he maintains the pretended right which the Romish Chinch has ever assumed of deposing heretical Princes., and he deplores the misfortunes of boSe t hues, which, as he says, prevent the spouse ofJesns Christ (t he Church) from putting those holy, maxims into practice, and constrain her to suspend the course of her just severities against the enemies of the faith. 'flue Petition which had been read alluded to the Jesuit s' College established in Lancashire, and that Order had been revived by the present Pope, al though it had been found so dangerous to the peace and well-being of society, that it had been put down in our own times -by .the common consent of all the Courts Europe. If Honourable Members had any desire to knots. the principles and conduct of the Jesuits. they might consult a I-Lstory of that Order, which he believed to be correct, pub fished' in London so recently its t'l6. Upon the spiritual juris diction of the Pope he should not now enteros the dangers which might arise ft our the interference of a foreign supremacy in this country, mast be obvious to the House ; lint there was one subject upon which be must sity.a few words, that of Tithes. He conceived that Roman Catholics, if they'pos sessed political power, never could consent to pay tithes in support au Protestant Ministry, which they considered as belonging to an heretical church. As tithes were before the Reformation in the bawls Of the Roman Cat holies lhemselveS, and had been looked upon by them as the patiimmiy of St Peter, they could not, m their opinion, be alienated by any temporal authority, nor become the property of a Protestant Church. He, therefore, thotight that a general cot/mu tation fur tithes should at least precede any concession of the Roman Catholic claims; but as a sincere friend to civil ani religious liberty, be must confess himself opposed to the ad mission of Roman Catholics to political power. 111 r. WARRE made some observations on the style and temper of the Petition, and on the spirit manifested by the Hon Member who spoke last. Mr. BUTTERWORTH, in reply, defended the style of the Petition, and stated, that as lie should move that it he printed, it would of course be submitted to the criticism of the House. Übe had spoken with any warmth, it was me reiy because lie felt the sot jest deeply and conscientiously, and not from any un charitable or-unchristian feeling towards his Roman Catholic brethren.—The Petition was ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. GRENFELL presented a Petition from a parish the name of which we could not learn, against the Thames ‘iharf Bill.—Ordered to lie on the Table. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. A Message from the Lords requested. that James Drum mond. Esq. might he permitted to attend their Lordships' Committee on Foreign Trade as a witness. The Lords Mes sengers were informed that the House had complied with their Lordship? request. FOREIGN TIMBER. Mr. J. P. GItANT -moved for returns of all fir and ball; timber imported into Scotland from Norway, from the year 1799 to 520.—Ordered. BREAKFAST POWDER. ..... _ _ Sir R. WILSON begged to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether it was the inten tion of the Crown to proceed in the prosecutions of certain persons who had manufactured and sold roasted wheat as a substitute for coffee ? He asked this question On behalf of the industrious classes, to whom this article world afford a cheap and nutritious beverage ; it was also interesting to Gen tlemen connected with the Agricultural Interests, as he understood it would cause, in that way, annually, the con sumption of nine million bushels of corn.—(Hear, hear !)-- He likewise hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would allow him to entertain the • opinion• that Go vernment . did not mean to press the penalties of the con victions obtained against Mr.ll lint, in the Exchequer, for the manufacture and sale of this Breakfast Ptiwder. He (Sir R. Wilson) did on a former occasion, ask the Right' Honourable Gentleman whether he intended to move for the repeal of the <1 tst Geo, 111., which, according , to the recent legal cunr slim:lion, prevented the sale of the article, and, at the same time, he stated its advantage to the poor,--an argument which ought to have great weight:, at all times, with a wise and hu nmoe Government, but ought to hare tenfold force at a time of such genet al and aggravated distress. On that occasion, the Right Him. Gentleman informed him that he had not examined the lass' upon the subject--but he understood him also to say,that he haul no intention for the future to prevent the sale of the Powder, if not used as an imitation of coffee, but sold as a bona fide article for public consumption. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he was sorry if any thing had fallen from him which had misled the Gallant General. He Wag not aware that any thing had dropped from him to warrant his statement with respect to the repeal of the 41st Geo. 111. 'Sir R. WILSON explained, and said that he had not made any important use of the Right Hon. Gentleman's communi cation, nor did he mention his name, hut asserted generally an account of what he understood him to have said, that it was not the intention of Government to proceed any further with those procrcntinns• BOROUGH OF GRAMPOUND, Dr. LUSHINGTON presented a Petition (non certain In habitant Ilonseholders of London, Southwark, and Westmin ster, praying that the Elective Franchise, about to be trans. ferred from Grampound to Let ds, might have a more exten sive limitation than that contemplated by the present Bill, shich required•iu every voter a qualification of house and land rented to the amount of at least 201. a year. The Hon. Member expressed himself in favour of the prayer of the Peti tion, which was ordered to be printed. TUE QUEEN. Sir RONALD FERGUSSON presented a Petition from the Borough of Kiikaldy, in Scotland, signed by five hun dred persons, expressing their giisOisfactiio at the measures pursued - against her Majesty the Queen; complaining also of the oppressive load of taxation which pressed upon the niantifacturing interests, noel which had not been lightened by .any measures of economy, notwithstanding the professions of Ministers, end the promise held out itt the • gpeeCh•from the Throne: ,ice-lietitloners also expref ed tVeti•• selves deeply hurt to fierethat a Loyal Address had been pre sented iii the :name of the inhabitants of that But tt b, trout e the secitlinnts of which, as.far as they w en t t o al *prone of the conduct of Ministers, they wholly dissented t bat Loyal Address, they stated, had.been got up tinder the sa section Of a respeetAle name, and had, in the first instance, I be signa tures of If: persons under the pay of the Crown—( Hear The Address so et-Commended was sent round, and t bete were finally olunined for it 49 names out of a population jf 40,009: —The Petitioners, moreov e r, sobmitted to the Ho Ilse, that the country-could not be satisfied until Gorernm tnt acted Upon a strict principle of economy, and restored- bier Ma.. jetty to the full possession of her rights. T te' Hon, Member presented another Petition, signed b: y nearly ieven hundred persons, from an .adjoining par itch, con taining similar sentiments, stating besides, that iclinisters bad totally lost the confidence of the nation, and pr hying fee a thorough and effectual Reform in Parliament. t 'ocse Peti tions together.svere signed Icy upwards of I MO. An Ho ~,,, trahle Mrs; R.asstned the House, ,that the names signed to the Loyal Address were of the Most re spectable description. • , sir It. FEItGOSSON, in ekplanation, Raid that tt name, f the Petitioners were not inferior in point of respe The Petition wiis ordered to be printed. CONINIITTEE scoTriz Sir R. FERGUSSON moved that his name might ibt drawn from the Committee on the. Scotch Burghs ii. on the ground of his being, convinced that the tootle of pr N , cevdit; adopted by the majority of that Committee would $ prevent the advantage expected to he derit ed from iTs" pointment, and cause the hopes, of the people of Sec *rlttur he completely overthrown.—(Hear, hear!)—Tier had ana feet logs hostile to that majority, or to any person -in it, t it Eltd ing that his'eseilitins could not. have any Itiect itypre trentimr. the views of the Petitioners front being defeated, his name to he withdrawn. Mr. MA('KENZIE said, that the Ilotiouralde -.7lTeriihel• would tlo his duty better, if he remained on the Con ienittee.„, and pointed out to the majority the means of mor e - eft c,toally accompiishime the end desired, lie (Mr NI.) was a . if that Committee, and voted for its appointment in lion to most of the Gentlemen with whom he usually voted, on account of the representation., of 'various akinses Lade to• the House by the inhabitants of these Purghs. 'llse Peti tioners had, since the appointment of the Coninvittpe, sub— stantiated, in a great pail, the existence of many "if those abuses, and he believed the _labours of the Committ se would. ultimately secure the remedial co for which it ,twas ap— pointed.—The question was put and affirmed. CAPITAL FELONS' DEFENCE BILL. - - R. NIARTIN moved, that the Order of th I-Thy if,r the seetind reading of the Capital Felonies' Delon a kilt re:l4.in order to its being liostootted to Wednesday ►e'oiiight —Ord red. .suppiA ES.—All Y _it EDUCTION,;. On the Order of the Day for the 114 - use Pr - solving itself into a Corinnitt-eo of Suppit belt); read— Mr. Unit rose to move the itesohlticons lie had before proposed .to the flooss, They the Houst. iio immediate eigient of 'reduction, butt only' to a general principle a econenty. lie begged the wirticulitr atteution or Members to this circumstance. He coucludea by moving— I. Resolved, That it appears by the offirial retairi3s ()flora the House, th:.t the, total military establishinenl 41 Greas . Britain and . Ireland, for 1792 (exclosive of the Earl /44,14 4 . and of the artillery, militia, and marine's), consisted tif 4 2 1 474 men; namely, of 15,919 fur Great Britain, G0er104,•.,', 17,32:3 in the Colonies abroad ; and 15,233 in feint trad; in" that the total military establishment of Great Ilejtaih , an* Ireland for 1821 (exclusive of the East Indies, the earfilletTr. the militia, and marines), consists of 84,10Woflicers namely. -27,852 in Great Britain, Gust n;ev, &c.; of 42,47 0 the Colonies 'abroad; ald of 20,778 in Ireland. 2. Resolved, l'hat the supplies forthe expense' of 'the Mili tary Establishment of Great Britain and Ireland in it - 92 were 24331,1491.; that the supplies voted for the Military Ettalikh !omit of Great Britain and Ireland for 1820 were 9 ,sco,incihrt, and that the Army Estimates for 1821, now sube.eated tore House, are only 153,4981. less than those of 1829. 3. Resolved, That there were in the service of Croat Wri"' . lain and Ireland, in 1792 (exclusive of the real') tkr 0%1 , 44 1 1 and Infantry, 25.757 troops; namely, 3,730 of IWiyaf Xrtil lery, 4,425 of Royal Mashies, and 17,602 of d )ivinbosll 4 ' and in 1821 (exclusive of the re gg h, and infanliy) the number of 1.23,49 . 1 troops; rm.) engineers and artillery, 8,000 royal marines, 5 Pi9i4B embodied militia, and 5 . 7,015 yeomanry cavalry an. Itivannteef infantiy, being in number a larger force by 13 t;367 men, available fur purposes of the Government, in this Star that , . in 1792. 4. itesolrct!, That it k the opinion of this tic *lse, thht , under the present circumstances of the country, 3t is aci diem to milli,. a• large reduction in the amount an, expendl - of its military esta!►li•tin►etlt, and to approximy ItQ " cnom ns possible to the establishment of 1792, as recon►r extrideil the Finance Committee in 1817. Lord CASTLERAGII wished to know t4e exac,t intention of the Hon. Member.- If it wa,; merely to have the Resolutions entered on the fournals of the House, he apprehended that thele could) be na great objection. If • the motive of the Honourable Member was to secure the concur rence of the House in any general princi pie as to the necessity of economy, there could be tit) great '• objection to that, provided the motion wire ill" • troduced at a proper time. He feared lest the Resolutions, introduced as now proposed, Oloulti be supposed to bear particularly on the preseot Estimates, in which case the principle c nz,ht to be brought forward in specific resolution ss apPli" cable to the several ,details of those. e ithnateF- This House as it was understood at the ,last ad" journroent, was bound, bona fide, to go i n to the. Committee on this evening. He tl7o.ivitt trio' most natural course for - the Hon. Member to tA:e would be to allow the House to go iilto a e mittee, and there to bring. forwari eayopecific proposition for reduction in the items, anc.thel before the iringing up of the Report, the . Ites2' lution pled - ging- the House to the general pri ple of economy and reduction might, with i-ru priety, be brought forward and proposod fur die adoption of the House. Mr. HumE said, that if .his views were that of the Noble Lord touching the subject ruat.. ter of his Resolutions, he might adopt the moth which the Noble Lord had suggested ; bitt in his 0-4'll view, that mode was contrary to practice , He intended his proposition to have the effect 'of an instruction to the Committee o" a reStrictiott.. to the House, to confine the grants to the latcoi possible scale of expeitce, And he put it to 60. candour of the Noble Lord, if ,the most prope time for bringing forward such a proposit!oM was before the House resolved itself into a Cony.' mittee, or after the. Committee had done its la".; bours.. He denied that he had concurred in th°' under Standing of suffering,' the House to go' without any interruption into that Committee; , on the contrary, he had left it to be plainly un' derstood that he would take the first opportunity of bringing forward this very motion. Mr.CarivLy seconiled tlie motion. Lord PA,ott:nsTor4, would not enter into th e general argument of the lion. Member, becaus e he thought it not a fit subject for deliberatio4 before going into the Committee. That would-; he _the proper time for proposing any specific re"' ductions. But he had other objections. Tho' Ilmi. Member had proposed the 'resolutions as: resolutions of fact, 'whereas they contained 4 great many mistatemonts . . They stated fib: fore , " on foot in 1792 to be 45,000, and it was iwpwardS of 4(1,000 men. They stated the militia :to bo 17,000, whereas they were, including tile a.151.' embodied militia,'3o,WO, being an omisAion 19,000. They stated I,he increase Of nog'