The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 7, 1844 face of the earth whether the poor of this country had not ground for complaint when such a state of things existed. But this was a mere difference in the value of the currency ; they must also take into account the deterioration in every branch of industry. Take the ar• tisan, the mechanic, and the labourer; he ventured to say that on the average it would now require more than the wages of two days to pay their taxation, while one would have sufficed in 1813. Take the iron manu facture. It would take three pounds of iron at the present day, at its present price, to pay the taxes, for which one would have sufficed in 1813. Look, again, at the cotton manufacture. It wo tld now take more than two pounds of cotton twist, and more than four yards of calico, to pay the same amount of taxation for which one pound of cotton-twist and one yard of calico would have sufficed in 1813. It' they wont through the whole of the manufactures, they would arrive at the same result. It ,had been said by a distinguished political man, that the people, in fact, governed themselves ; that all the taxes were laid upon them for their own protection and benefit: Let them turn to local taxa tion. It was stated by the Poor-law Commissioners that the local taxation of the country amounted to twelve millions. That calculation was, he felt convinced, vastly under the mark. The local taxa tion of the city of London was stated by these gen • tlemen to be 188,5001. He would prove, beyond dispute, that it amounted to more than half a minion, including taxes paid to the corporation, the taxes paid on Coal and for public improvements, the poor-rates, the church-rates, and other burdens. This was 300,0001. more than the amount stated by the Commissioners. He believed that the local taxation of Eng land, Scotland, and Ireland, amounted to more than 25,000,0001., and when this was added to the general taxes, the whole amount was about 80,000,000/. And this was altogether independent of the sums paid to the Church and the Dissenting clergy ; and for the maintenance of places of worship and schools, which laid additional and heavy burdens upon the people. The principal amount was paid by a population of eighteen millions and a half; for, with all the complaints of their fellow-subjects in Ireland, he believed that the Irish were better off, as regarded taxation, than the prople of this country. He believed that, taking the last century, that the taxation of Ireland did not amount to one twelfth of the taxation of this country. Now look at the taxation of France. This year it would be little more than 50,000,000/, to be paid by a population of 35,000,000, and it embraced nearly all the items con• tained in our local taxation. Now, why was this large amount taken from the toil, the skill, and the sweat of millions of the labour ing population ? Why, their must have a standing army and military police, otherwise these things would not be submitted to. How did that ques tion stand ? The number of the army, independently of the artillery and the engineers, in the year 1822 was 91,750. Last year, the first estimate was 129,481. There was, indeed, an assurance from the Government that 5,700 men would be reduced ; but, instead of ful filling that promise, they came down before the end of the session with a Bill to add 10,000 men to the existing force ; not in the ordinary mode, but establishing, for the first time in the history of this country, a permanent military force, answering to the Praetorian guards in ancient Rome.—(Laughter.) The present Government might not intend this force to be permanent, but they had established the principle--(Hear)—and such would be the pressure upon this country, that some of their successors would constitute the force in the way that he had described. Why, under the existing law the Go vernment had power to take any number out of the 129,000 men .to the amount of 10,000, place them on half-pay, and then embody them at their own pleasure as military police, or gendarmerie. The last vote of the boroughmongering Parliament fixed the entire force at 109,180 men; the vote of the Reform Parliament last year fixed the number at 139,481 men, 30,200 more than the force under the old boroughmongering system. —(Hear, hear.) Their system of taxing the people was most partial and unjust. Under the most despotic Governments of Europe the wealthier classes paid the larger portion of the taxes. In Prussia,, Austria, and many other countries, the taxes were - laid chiefly on land. The operation of. the income-tax had proved that they could suck no more out of the people of this country. Take the article of tea. At the public sales yesterday and the day before there was tea sold at 10d. and ls. per lb. ; it paid 2s. 2d. as tax. There was tea sold at ss. per lb., and that paid the same tax. Thus the poor paid five times as much as the rich for this article of consumption. For the commonest brown sugar, which was mixed to a great extent with unwholesome materials, the poor paid the same tax as was paid by the rich on the whitest refined sugar. Take the instance of tobacco. To be sure it might be said that the poor man ought not to enjoy such a luxury— but he had been accustomed to it, and it was one of those things of which he could not be deprived. A tax of 800 per cent. was paid upon tobacco, whilst upon cigars, which could be obtained only by those in better circumstances, the tax was only 140 or 150 per cent. They imposed a tax of 100 per cent. upon the poor man's beer ; but upon their own Burgundy and Cham pagne no more 15 or 16, or, at the most; 17. or 17i per cent. He asked them, therefore, if they could stand up and say that these were not grievances, into which the representatives of the people were bound to inquire ? (Hear, hear.) He would conclude with warning the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department that things were now approaching to the state, of the possi bility of which the Right Hon. Gentleman had, on a former occasion, warned the House. So many of the people were dying of hunger in this metropolis, that the richer classes and the clergy were forming themselves into associations to check the progress of destitution and famine.—(Hear, hear.) It was known that ten millions of the people were subsisting upon the food of cattle.— (Hear, hear.) He would now conclude, in the words of the Right Hon. Baronet, when he said that "If ever the time came that this country should present the specta cle of millions of the people in a state of starvation, then they would sweep away titles, honours, pensions, ) He seconded the resolution. read the resolution, a pause of two and The b e e s estates:'—(Cheers.) es SPEAKER. " ( h havingee r s. the r ii ns o e n a . n a d e sa n i t d lem th a a n t , htheewams Member r c f t o ly r or three minutes took place, when, after loud cries of Ques tion, question" from th e Tory benches, entitled to the credit which be had PEELevißlai°iSielmiihnredgdaßiteoOfiorßadwhEmiasßmitTseftulhfllaytat the commencement of his speech, for the motives which actuated him in bringing forward this reso lution, and also for the moderation with w hi c h h e h a d per formed the task.—( Hear, hear.) He thought it would not bejust to accuse the Hon. Gentleman of any intention to ob struct the business of the House, by moving adjournments from of es h d i m s m ated otio t n he sh g o oo uld d b s e en a s t e ta o i f n t e h d. e an el atht o uld not fe e l hi mse lf just ifi e d i n a d opt i ng rightlyt believed supported by a very great portion time to time until ah t wt h e e hhe o en b jhe was ce that the Hon. Gentleman, ollHfoe unle ss nt . w e G a b s He e ok t unl s ure esemew:h such a course.—( Hea r- ) But whatevercourse he (Mr. thinkCraw proper to take, he (Sir R. Peel) lair to offer that as an objection to ought to be me t u p on it s own groun d s , an d any future course he might take. He thought ntfdohiordetd is notn res o lut i on, mo referenceiltg h uht li t no uk h , hereafter i t ethao wouldfti c any hnr be it a spirit corresponding to that in w He would, therefore, only ask the House, forwa rd. would bed consistent with the public interest that uch h favour of that resolution ?—( Hear. ) that they whether wasalso shouldhe tbhre to brought b ivgt e ohtte met i n The resolution ems a twofold proposition—first, that it was the immediate duty of the House to inquire into the grievances of the people; and, secondly, that the Mouse was.. not competent to grant the supplies nn account of the defects of its constitu tion. If this resolution were carried, then the House would have declared itself criminal in the eyes of the country, and the sooner it abstained from exercising its functions, and ab dicated its authority, the better. The first part of the reso lution bore upon all the political and socialinstitutions of the country.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") The second part complained first of the East India Company, raonopoly— next, of the monopoly of the Bank. of England. It then passed to the poor-law, which the. Honourable Member con sidered a just ground of complaint on the part of the people, the Hon. Gentleman insisting that both the enactment of the law and its a dministration were of a nature which: demanded an c Hear, hear," from Mr. Sharman raw im fo in rd ed .) iate Th in e g r u e i s r o Ycti on then passed to the Church Estab lishment, which it said the people of this country were dis posed to complain o f—whic h was , in this part of the empire, a grievanceeircurstni in Ireland still more so nces of that co un t r y ; and on account of the even in Scotland us and fruitful source of discontent.—( Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentleman complained-also of the establishment of the eH constabulary force in the rural districts; and next he (Mr. Sharman Crawford) thought that the ancient custom of the peculiarhe publicrie g r ievous o country, that each locality should appoint its own constables, should be restored. The Hon. Member for Rochdale neat passed to the corn-liw, and seriously told the House that until this, and all the other ing redients in his aggregate of grievances were inquired into t he supplies should be withheld. Did the House suppose that if they went into that inquiry they should have arrived at a conclusion satisfac tory to the Hun. Gentleman or to the country before the sth of April.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) If the House were now to institute an inquiry into all the relations of the different classes of society, and into the functions, duties, privileges, and constitution of each of the three estates, when would the in quiry end ?—( Hear, hear.) It was quite clear—indeed he thought it was quite clear to the Hon. Gentleman - himself— that the proposition was utterly impracticable. Even if it were wise to institute such an inquiry, he would ask did the Hon. Gentleman himself think it would lead to the redress of these grievances, if such they were? He (Sir R. Peel) did not think that the Hon. Gentleman had any party object in view when he brought forward this motion. He meant to say that he did not think the Honourable Member had any intention of bringing it forward for the purpose of an noying or obstructing the party who, from political motives, sup ported those Qui managed the affairs of the Government in that House. He thought that nothing could result from the inquiry. How could it ? The only effect would be to raise expectations which could never be realised, and to give forth to the world an acknowledgment of the folly and incapacity of the British House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had not contented himself with putting forth these propositions, but told the House not to vote supplies, as they were not the representatives of the people ; and in sisted that a very extensive reform of Parliament was a ne cessary preliminary before the House should proceed to exer cise any of its functions. The Hon. Gentleman told them that there were 6,000,000 of adults in the empire, and that only 1,000,000 were represented in Parliament, and he thought that it was an injustice to the other 5,000,00 G that they should be subjected to taxation. The Hon. Gentleman insisted that representation should be co-existent with taxa tion, and yet he would confine representation to adult males. But females also were subject to taxation, why did he not give them the franchise ? They had the power of voting in many institutions, and there could be no reason for excluding them from the Parliamentary franchise if it was to be co-extensive with taxation. Mr. S. CRAWFORD—Certainly not.—(Laughter.) Sir R. PEEL must say then that the Hon. Member for Rochdale was a very great Reformer indeed .—(Laughter. ) Why did the Hon. Member confine the franchise to adults ? Persons below the age of maturity wets subject to taxation. They were subject also to military service. Why, then, on the Hon. Member's own principle, did be exclude them from the franchise? The proposal of the Hon. Gentleman, there fore, was neither mo re nor less than this , that the wh ole po pulation of this country, without reference to the possession of a house—the whole population of every part of the United Kingdom, who contributed to the taxes by indirect taxation,. should, wale and female, be entitled in point of justice to a share of the suffrage. Was it possible, supposing the principle of the Hon. Gentleman to be just—was it possible for him to test it by practical appli ca tion ? If he put it in open ration he might depend that his new House of Par liament would be ble o precisely the same at- a minority was prepared to refuse the supplies. He wished a majority to go with him in affirming the prin ciple that grievances should be redressed before the supplies were granted. It was not his intention, after a vote should be taken on this question, to interfere further in opposition to the Government.—(Hear, hear.) He felt that no individual Member ought to undertake or attempt to proceed in a course with regard to the supplies, which would not be supported by public opinion out of doors, or that would not be supported by a sufficient number of Members in the House.—(Hear, hear.) He was not the man to undertake this. He wished to bring his proposition fairly before the House and the public, and it would then be for the advocates of popular rights and the public to take any course ' tbey might think best. Such a proceeding as that of raising the question of grievances on the motion of sup plies, ought to be supported by public opinion, or else it could have no weight, nor could it ever be of any use. He did not contemplate a system of factious adjourn ments, but his object was, if possible, to get a majority with him. Although he might on this occasion be defeated by the majority, yet he would never despair of ultimately obtaining a majority with him. He did not charge the present Government in particular with inattention, for other Governments had been equally culpable, and he knew that the late Government was as much to blame as the present one. He was aware that he should be opposed in his motion by perhaps the principal supporters of the late Government, and he therefore wished it to be distinctly understood that he made no accusation against the present Govern ment. He wished to impress on the House the necessity of inquiry. .He said that if the Government refused to grant that inquiry, it then became the duty of that House, as . a • body, to refuse the supplies until such inquiry were obtained. This was a constitutional principle which he was desirous of carry ing out.—(Hear, hear.) He wished the House to reflect upon the situation in which it was placed with the coun try. It stood, as it were, as a criminal at the bar, the charges against it being its own votes.—(Hear, hear.) He did not wish to trespass further on the attention of the House, but he trusted that it would be conceded that he had brought hi 3 motion forward temperately, for he had endeavoured to avoid everything which might f3r a moment give offence to any one.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving—" That whereas complaints have been made to this House on various oc casions, by petition, to the effect that the people are suffering under unjust and partial legislation, and under the effects of monopolies of various kinds, political and ecclesiastical, created and kept in existence for the benefit of favoured classes ; that by the taxes imposed on food, for the support of one of these monopolies, the. supply is restricted and the price raised, whilst at the same time the demand for labour is diminished and wages reduced, and the profits of manufacturing and commercial industry deeply injured ; that the burthen of general taxation has been increasd to an intolerable extent, by an extravagant expenditure in every depart ment of the State, and that this taxation is so imposed as to press most oppressively and heavily on the indus trial portion of the community ; that laws have been passed injurious to the rights of the people, and arbitrary proceedings of Government have taken place dangerous to public liberty ; that in order to sustain this system an unconstitutional amount of standing army is kept up for the home ser vice, and the ancient constitutional constable superseded by the hired police ; all which would be wholly unne cessary if the grievances of the people were redressed, and just and impartial government established. It is further complained, that these and other grievances are produced by the bad constitution of the Commons' House ; that by the limitation of the suffrage, the long duration of Parliaments, and corruption and undue in fluences in the election of representatives, this House, as at present constituted, does not . truly represent, and is not responsible to the people, and therefore does not legislate for their interests ; that, notwith standing frequent respectful petitions presented to this House, the complaints of the people have neither been inquired into nor redressed ; that from these causes an alarming state of discontent prevails generally overthe United Kingdom : It is therefore the immediate duty of this House to make inquiry into these complaints ; and as this House can have no right to vole supplies except as being the representatives of the people, it is impera tively necessary that the charges brought against its present constitution and competency in the petitions which have been received and recorded among its pro ceedings, should be inquired into, and, if found to be justly made, redressed, before this House shall proceed to the voting of supplies." Mr. W. WILLIAMS said his Hon. Friend having stated so clearly his views on this question, he had no hesitation in seconding the resolution. He confessed that if it had involved the principle of a small minority, factiously opposing the granting of the supplies against a large majority, he would not have been prepared to have taken that course. The object of this motion was simply:to inquire into the grievances of the people. The first important point to establish was the existence of those grievances. His Hun. Friend had stated generally what he considered to be those grievances, as they had been described in petitions which had been laid on the table of that House. His Hon. Friend had not in his motion gone any thing approaching so far as examples which might be found on the Journals of that House, but espe• cially in the opinion expressed by the Noble Lord the Member for London (Lord J. Russell) when he introduced into that House the Reform Bill. The Noble Lord on that occasion stated to the House the object he had in view in proposing that Bill, in the following words :—" I propose that the people should send to this House their real representatives, to deliberate upon their wants, to consult upon their interests, to consider their grievances, and to attend to their desires." Now, nothing was expressed in the resolution proposed by his (Mr. W.'s) Hon. Friend, that was not expressed in language much stronger, in his opinion by the Noble Lord, when he in troduced the Reform Bill. He would ask any Hon. Member whether the Reform Bill had produced the re sult anticipated by the Noble Lord ? He believed that every honest man would answer in the negative. When that Bill was introduced, the entire people of this coun try exhibited a willingness to risk even their lives and property in defence of that measure, which they anti cipated would secure to them those benefits which the Noble Lord had described. Their anticipations had been attended with nothing but disappointment. Some times three millions of the people presented a petition, in which they stated that that House did not represent them. They had many examples of proceedings in that House which went farther than the motion of his Hon. Friend. In the year 1642, when the Monarch of that day attempted to raise taxes without the authority of the House of Commons, when he pro ceeded to accomplish his object, the House of Commons resisted the arbitrary attempt, and the first great and important step they took in opposition to the tyrannical attempt was to give direction to the Lords of the Trea sury to stop the supplies. This step not only put a stop to the King's object, but ultimately led th e S overe i gn to the scaffold. Again, in the reign of William the Third. That Monarch, in ascending the throne, entered into a compact with the people, which compact was usually called " The Bill of Rights." As soon as he had as cendedtweThhniedteniaHvhvii oorst virtue eisreenee endeavoured, gobreuoymgn allh Commo n s e e , engagement t to h ; e the enforce neglected_ meansn d, d in in h I his engagement, and BmH3o:nua p as o ure w ci to Lords of ah's osms a ep r d ol compliance hadcitthe. ll Houses of Parliament, by whi c h P ar li aments were ma d e triennial. That Bill was re j ec t e d b y t h e Ki ng. In the next year the Parliam en t repasse d t h at Bill , an d t h e Parliament, according t o B urne t, to ld t h e Ki ng t h at unless he gave his assent to th a t 8.11, th a t h e wou ld re ceive no supplies, and no suppli es were vo t e d un til th a t Bill received the Royal assent. The first a nd most im portant proposition in the resolution of hi s H o n. F r i en d was that that House did not represent the people. How did the question stand with regard to the represen tation of the people in that House ? Fire milli o n s out n htaet 6 his of six millions of the people were without any voice at all in the representation ; yet two-thirds of the taxation were borne by the non-represented classes. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, in introducing the income-tax, said he could not consent to increase the burdens on the lower classes, saying he could bring conclusive proof to show that taxation had reached its limits.—(Hear, hear.) These were the opi nions of the Right Hon. Baronet. Judge Blackstone laid it down as his opinion that the people should ac quiesce in the judgment of the law because they had a voice in the making of those laws through their repre sentatives. But what could be said for the five millions who were without representation ; and yet what could be done without them? He would next turn to the con stitution of that House itself. What could be more monstrous, more base, than the bribery so often proved before the Election Committees ? When Mr. Maddocks brought a charge against a Member of that House, at the time of Lord Castlereagh, that Noble Lord said the sale of seats in that House was as notorious as the sun at noon-day. The Honourable Member then quoted several instances of bribery at elections, and then alluded to the deficiency of voters. Seventy-one towns returned to that House 121 Members, with a constituency less in number then the West Riding of Yorkshire; 20 towns, with a consti tuency of 2,923, returned the same number of Members as 20 other towns, having a constituency of 153,940. Lord Chatham said that taxation without representation was unconstitutional. Locke and Lord Grey were of a similar opinion, opposed to these opinions were the facts, that Harwich returned four Members to Parliament, whilst the West Riding of Yorkshire and the great town of Manchester returned only the same number. The taxation had increased in an alarming proportion. In 1836, the expenditure was 44,20070001, in 1843, 51,700,0001., being 7,500,000/. more than the taxation of 1836, and the difference was suffi cient to maintain every department of the United States annually, and yet that great country had paid its debts to the last farthing.—(Hear, and laughter.) lie spoke of the Government of the United States, and not of the States themselves, but he believed they too, -would discharge their debts.—(lronical cries of " .Hear, hear.) The people were subjected to a greater taxa tion now than in any one year during the last war. lite took for his authority one of the most enlightened men of his day—who had written with as much ability as any man living, and proved himself to be well ac quainted with the position of this country—he meant the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Like all prudent men, the Right Hon. Baronet made all his statements under the mark ; and what did he state ? In the year 1812, he said, 'the amount of the taxes was 61,200,0001., the price of gold 5/. Is. per ounce ; in 1813 the amount of the taxes was 73,300,0001., the . price of gold Si. 6s. lid. per ounce. In the first in stance there was a depreciation in the currency, as com pared with the standard value, of 38} per cent. ; in the second instance the depreciation was 41 per cent. Re duce the amount to the present standard, with gold at 31. 17s. 1 old. per ounce, and it would appear that the average taxation of those five years was forty-five millions, ten railliots less than in the twenty-eighth year of peace. He ivouldaskevery honest man on the ..... in point of fact, where the poor railway traveller used i Hon. Member for Kendal, who had on a former occasion to pay threepence be now paid sixpence, and where taken a very active part in the revision of the Standing sixpence, a shilling ; and having the interests of the Orders relating to the introduction of Railway Bills ; working class tol -ok after, as well as that of their and there was the lion. Member for Inverness, who had employers, he ! oound to make this statement, also taken a great interest in the subject. He should although it went to contradict what fell from have been rejoiced to have seen both thos e Hon. -Gentle his Honourable Friend the Member for Renfrew- men on the Committee. The Hon. and Learned Mem shire, when addressing the House on this sub- ber for Bath supposed that he was wedded to his own ject last night. To return, however, to the pro- opinion on matters of detail. He could assure the lion. posed Committee. Amongst the names now pro- and Learned Gentleman that he was perfectly sensible of posed by the Government, he could count not less than the difficulties which he should experience in adjusting five who were directors in railways, and the Right Hon. these details, and that he should be glad of any sug- Gentleman himself (Mr. Gladstone), who would, of gestion as to the best method of proceeding. With re course be the Chairman of the Committee, though not a gard to the specific proposition before the House, if director, frankly admitted that he was a considerable they postponed the question then they would be com railway shareholder. He (Mr. Wallace) in the course pelled to deal with these difficulties at some future day, he now proposed to adopt, would proceed in the fairest and considering the number of applications for Railway possible way, for he should object at once to the first Bills that would probably be made in the course of the name, that of the Right Hon. Gentleman, being allowed session, he thought it important that they should pro to remain on the list. He meant no personal disrespect to teed with the inquiry at the earliest possible period. that Right Hon. Gentleman; far from it, but he frankly Mr. HAWES g ave the Right Hon. Gentleman full , owned he looked with great suspicion at the entire corn- credit for his anxiety to do justice to this very impor position of the proposed Committee. He had no other tent subject, but he had not answered the objection made name to propose, so little did he care who were upon it ; by the Noble Lord, that -the railway interest was too his only object being that the Committee should be strongly represented. The Committee would have to so constituted as to be entitled to the confidence of consider not only the measures necessary to be adopted the public. He moved that the first name be omitted. for all future railways, but also what alterations the Mr. GLADSTONE would only say one word upon protection of the public might require to be made in the the subject. If he had found that the rule in forming regulations of existing railways, so as to protect the these committees was to keep out the names of parties public against the monopoly which might be created by who might be supposed to be interested, he need not tell a concentration of interests. He objected to increasing the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Greenock, that he the number of Members beyond fifteen, and he suggested should have been very glad to have acted upon it, and so the propriety of suspending the appoiftment of the evaded the duties which must necessarily have devolved Committee. There was a great preponderance of rail upon himself, as Chairman of this Committee. But he way interests among its members, and he would suggest found, on former occasions, that parties directly inter- to the Right Hon. Gentleman the propriety of substitut ested in railways did not, under similar circumstances, ing some other names fer those of gentlemen connected feel justified in shrinking from the performance of those with railways.—(Cheers.) He should wish to see his duties on the ground of personal interests, It was a Hon. Friend the Member for Kendal on that Committee. great mistake to suppose that any uniform feeling per- His Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Bath had railed the parties interested in the several railways already given notice of a motion on the subject of railways that pre formed, and those which were contemplated. In point supposed some attention to the subject. He should like of fact, the interests of parties connected with the old to see the Hon. and Learned Gentleman appointed to railways were distinctly different from those who were the Committee. He trusted that the appointment of the now, or who might be hereafter, connected with the new Committee would be postponed after the objectionswhich lines. Again, on tho:Se railways which were called high- had been made that night. He trusted the House would be fare lines, the interests were anything but identical with spared the pain of dividing upon the names of individual those which were known as low-fare lines. If the gentlemen ; but he also hoped that for some of those House, on the present occasion, chose to adopt a new names the Right Hon. Gentlemen would substitute those principle, he could have no personal objection to it what - of Members unconnected with theyrailwa interests. ever. He only wished it to be understood that, in the Mr. P. M. STEWART hoped He would feel no present instance, he had acted according to the princi- delicaey in disposing of his name. It had been put in pies which had been heretofore laid downs without any consultation with himself, and the first Mr. L ABOUC HERE said that undoubtedly, in ap- knowledge he had had of his appointment had been ob pointing a Committee for any interest, mercantile or tained from reading the votes of the morning. He felt commercial, it was usual to put a certain number of grateful for the honour which had been conferred on persons on it expressly interested in the sub- him, but he was not at all ambitious of serving on the sect ; and he did not see why the House Committee. It would be ungrateful in him to decline to should depart from the rule in this instance. serve, and he would at once state that he was an ho- Certainly, therefore, if the Hon. Member for Greenock norary director of the Greenock Railway, although he persisted in his amendment, he should vote against him, never interfered in its management, nor was he a great as, from the official situation which was held by the holder of railway stock. If the construction of the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, not- Committee rendered it at all liable to suspicion, he would withstanding the circumstances which had been named, recommend the Right Hon. Gentleman to postpone the he thought it most important that - his services should be appointment of it. The Right Hon. Gentleman, how retained. It was, however, quite another question whe- ever , w as the best judge as to the proper course of pro ther the railway interest did not - too greatly preponderate.: reeding to be adopted. He had been -put oh the Com in the Committee now nominated.—(Cheers.) In look- mittee without his consent, and he was not offended in ing over the names, it certainly was his (Mr. Lebow. consequence ; neither should he take offence if he were chere's) impression that the railway interest was repre- put off without his consent. seined in it to a degree which might deprive the Mr. WARBURTON thought it right to state, as allu- Committee of that weight in public opinion which it was sion had been made to him, that there were reasons why desirable every Committee of that House should possess. he should not be appointed on the Committee. He had --(Loud cheers.) That principle, however, was a totally no experience whatever as to the details of railway re different one to the urgent and inconvenient rule which gulation. He held a chief office in a society which re the Hon. Member for Greenock desired to have intro- quired so much of his attention, that his punctual duced, and, therefore, he must vote against the amend- attendance at the Committee would be impossible ; and limit, and for- the retention of the name of the Right although, at present, he was not a subscriber to any Hon the President of the Board of Trade.—(Hear.) railway undertaking, yet lie saw a notice of an applica- Mr. HUME said the principle was as stated by his tion about to be made for a Railway Bill to-which he Hon. Friend the Member for Greenock, however &Mi. had no doubt his constituents would expect that he rent the practice might have been of late years. He should subscribe ; and , therefore , t he ob j ection whi ch could speak from his own experience on this subject, for had been made to railway proprietors would equally he had himself challenged the votes of Mr. Pascoe Gren- apply to him. He comp l a ined that there was no one fell and others, as shareholders in the St. Katharine's on the Committee to represent the travelling public. Docks, when the Bill authorising their erection was be- He did not know whether the Hon. Member for Wolver fore the House. The Bill was brought up ; it was op - hampton possessed any railway shares ; he no doubt posed ; and on a division being called, and before it took would defend the interests of the public ;but he thought place, he challenged the names referred to as persons who, there ought to he persons on the Committee who were being interested, ought not to be allowed to vote. On con - neither directors nor shareholders. He hoped the sideration these votes were struck out.—(Hear, hear.) House would stick to the number of fifteen, for if once The House, therefore, had acted on a former occasion they infringed on that rule, they would never be able to on the principle laid down by his Hon. Friend, the Mem- adhere to it afterwards. ber for Greenock, and what had been advanced by the Mr. G. A. HAMILTON trusted that if the name of Right Hon. Member for Taunton, (Mr. Labouchere), any gentleman were substitued for his on the Committee was not wholly correct. For his own part, he (Mr. it would be some gentleman connected with Ireland. Hume) considered it was too much the practice to put Sir JOHN EASTHOPE had no objection to have the interested parties on the Committees of that House. name of some other gentleman substituted for that of A Committee was appointed to ascertain facts, and to himself, if such were the desire of the House. get at the real merits and the truth of the case. It was Mr. GLADSTONE would not object to postpone the desirable to have parties upon it who were both for appointment of the Committee as so many gentleman and against the object in view. A Committee so con- had expressed their willingness to retire. stituted would always give them the best information, Sir G. GREY hoped that, in the reconstruction of and upon that the House would always decide safely the Committeee, the Right Hon. Gentlemen would take what course to pursue. He had always been of .opinion, care that every part of the country should be adequately that no individual whatever should be allowed to sit on represented. a Committee who had any personal interest in it what- Mr. WALLACE had not made a personal objection ever. He had tried often to carry that principle out. to any one, and he trusted that no misunderstanding lie repeated, that his Hon. Friend, the Member for would exist on the subject. Greenock, was right in his principle, though, as to The motion was then withdrawn. modern instances, not in his practice, and he could not MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND. sit down without expressing his surprise at, and disap- On the motion of Mr. GLADSTONE, the following proval of, the great number of railway directors nos Members were nominated as the Select Committee on minated on the Committee just submitted to the House. the Merchant Seamen's Fund:—Mr. William Gladstone, Lord HOWICK contended, that the case of the St. Sir Howard Douglas, Mr. Barclay, Mr. Lyall, Mr. Katherine's Docks did not apply in the present instance. Hodgson Ilinde, Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Rice, Sir John There the parties challenged were directly interested Hanmer, Captain Gladstone, Admiral Dundas. Mr. in the Bill before the House. Here a Committee was Corry, Mr. Chapman, Mr. Ross, Mr. Hutt, and Mr. wanted merely to judge what general regulations were Philip Miles. desirable in the management of railways. The conse- SUPPLY—REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES. quence of acting on the principle laid down by the Hon. On the SPEAKER being about to read the Order of the Member for Greenock, would be to drive from the Corn- Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of mittee all the information and experience which Mem- Supply, hers of that House, being railway directors and proprie- Mr. WALLACE said that he had some petitions to tc.rs, could bring to bear upon the subject. But he present. (Lord Howick) could not help thinking that as the The SPEAKER informed the lion. Gentleman that Committee was now constituted, the railway interest he could not present them. was too strongly represented—(Cheers)—and that gen- Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD rose to bring for tlemen, holding high situations in these great under- ward the motion of which he had given notice. He ad takings were not the most proper instruments to effect mitted it was an unusual motion, but the reason he the object that House was supposed to have in view.— brought it forward was, that there was not a fair repre (Loud cheers.) Why, these were probably the ver y sentation of the people in that House, and that their men they might want for witnesses.—(Hear, hoar.) It grievances were not attended to by the House. They was bad to have one person as a witness, and the same com p lained of the monopolies. on corn, one of the prin person afterwards to draw conclusions. —(Hear, hear.) cipal of which was the tax on food, by which the menu- Ile hoped the names of the directors would be withdrawn. facturing and commercial interests of the country suffered. Mr. ROEBUCK said the Government could not do lula__would not at present enter on this subject. They otherwise than observe that the feeling of the House cdfliplained of the colonial monopolies, of which the was strongly opposed to the Committee as now proposed. principal was the sugar monopoly. They complained of In his opinion every one of the names upon this Corn- the banking monopolies, and the East India monopoly, mittee had been unduly chosen.—(Hear, hear.) Amongst and above all, they complained of the monopoly of the a great number of other names upon it he found that of Church. This was a monopoly felt particularly in Mr. Russell, who was Chairman of the Directors of the Ireland, and it was now being felt in Scotland. Great Western Railway. This he thought most un- The. people complained of an enormous burden warrantable, because the Committee would have to enter of taxation caused by wars, which would not have been into negotiations with several of the railway companies. undertaken if the people were truly represented. Ile Now he would ask who were the persons to decide upon did not want, however, that the public credit should be the manner in which those negotiations were to be car- destroyed by not paying the interest of the debt incurred ried on ? The Hon. Member to whom he had just al- by those wars. The people complained of the manner in laded was one of those who was most deeply interested which the public money was expended, and the system in the matter, and in his capacity of chairman was a of taxation. They complained of their rights being in person who would be very likely to come before the vaded, and of unjust laws being passed. They complained Committee as a witness, and also would be one most in- of the new poor-law, but the principle of this law he did tevested in the negotiations. He could go through all not intend to enter upon. One of the Acts invading the that Committee, and point out scarcely one name un- rights of the people was the Arms Act. That , eket could connected with either the Government or some railroad, not have been carried if the people were truly repre while there was not one representative of any of those sented, and it appeared now that the branding of the large towns to which there was a continual influx of arms would render it impracticable. But what he com travellers. lie should conclude by entreating that some plained of was, the arbitrariness of the Act. This, more fitting Members should be selected for this Com. amongst other things, produced the cry for the repeal mittee, who would be likely to attend more to general of the union. The people frequently asked for inquiry, than individual interests. but it was uniformly denied. There was an inquiry de- Lord J. RUSSELL did not entirely agree with the mended respecting the conduct of certain judges, but it Hon. and Learned. Member for Bath in saying that no was refused. They asked for inquiry into the standing director of a railway should be allowed to be placed on army. There were, he believed, 38,000 regii the Committee. He thought that to a certain degree lar troops, and 9,00 0 armed constabulary, in Ireland. the fact of having the practical remar k s o f t h ose gent l e - These would be entirely unnecessary if the men would be likely to hare a beneficial result. With just demands of the people were attended to. respect to the Noble Lord th e M em b er f or T otnes, h e But what they principally complained of was the state should say that he had been one of the members of the of the representation. Only one in seven had the fran- Committee, and at that time he had no connexion with chise, and could that be considered a fair representation tiny railway. He (Lord John Russell) thought that a of the people? Another reason why the people con matter for consideration, whether, if the directors of one sidered that this House did not truly represent them , railway were 'upon the Committee, those persons con- was that it was returned by corrupt practices. This nected with other lines of railroad, who did not possess House received the petitions of the people, and had the same privilege, might have reason to complain? them recorded, but while they did not contradict their Mr. GLADSTONE thought it most desirable that grievances, they refused all inquiry. One of the peti eome railway directors should be placed upon the Com- tions presented to that House was signed by 3,500,000 mittee. lie differed from the Noble Lord that persons persons. In that petition they used the following strong who were shareholders were more fit to be on the Corn- language. "Your House, as at present constituted, has mittee than those who were directors, for many of the not been elected by, and acts irresponsive of, the people. shareholders were more interested in the matter than It only represents parties, and legislates for the benefit the directors. There was Mr. Glynn, who was so en- of the few without any regard for the welfare or the in tensive a holder of shares as to be qualified to act as a Wrests of the many." Thus, they challenged the House director. If the Committee wanted to have the informa- to the proof of what they said, but they were disre tion of experienced and practical men, who were con- garde d. On the occasion when the Hon. Member for versant with the subject under investigation, he thought Finsbury moved that no person should sit on Election they could not do better than to have a fair proportion Committees. who would not make a declaration that he of railway directors. At the same time, while he ap- had not used any undue means to procure his return, only 19 Members voted in favour of his motion, thus proved of having a fair proportion of directors upon the acknowledging the charges made against them, and Committee, he should state that he did not con sider the question a new one. Previous to that they were not in a condition to deny those charges. This House then stood in the position of an accused Forming the Committee, the first thing he did party. It permitted no inquiry, and it did not was -to procure a list of the names which deny the charges which were brought against it. were upon the former Committee of 1840, and he saw there the names of many gentlemen connected with The inquiry that was demanded in the petition of the Char-ists was refused,..the numbers being 287 against it • railways, amongst whom were the Hon. Member for Sunderland, who declined ,to act upon this Committee, and 49 for it. The House having been in that position, he maintained that it was.not in a fit condition to impose although fie was a person of great experience in those taxes. The forms of the. House allowed the people to matters. Th ere was a l so t h e H on . B arone t th e Member call for redress of grievances before any supplies were .' fo l r it h Leicestereroe, who, and the Honourable Member for granted. Those rule s were f rame d f or th e p ur p ose o f Railway, was a Director o f the South Eastern which was different from all the others; being defending the liberty of the subject. It was true that what is termed a low-fare railway, and it was on account those rules u g ht„ not to be taken advantage of except of the intimate acquaintance which that Hon. Gentle- under extraordinary circumstances, but he was there to rycircumstances now man had with railway matters that he selected him to be maintain that those extraordina one of the Committee. lie admitted that the subject ex i ste d . It was not h is object, as he had before stated, was one of great difficulty. A • to force l the House to commit itself to a particular prin the not consist of more then According to the rules of • House a Committee co uld ' cip e o f reform. His resolution merely required the fifteen Members. Since coming into the House he had House to consider the demands of the people, and whe received many communications from gentlemen con nected with various railway scheme s in different parts they there were faults in the system of representation or ni!t. He was not going . to abandon those principles of the country, complaining that their i nt erests were not which he had declared, in his opinion, . should be the adequately represented in the Commit tee . If it should foundation of reform. But he did not wish •to commit be the pleasure of the House to depart from the rule 11 the House, or any onourable Gentleman who might ratting the number of a Committee, although the preee - - rote with, him, to this particular principle. He wished the House to go into dent might be ohjictionable, still it would - tend to re • to ascertain whether h move many of these di ffi culties; but if it was deterniine ' d It might be said to adhere to the number of fifteen, he,,did not see how tha t t that principle was a right one. nonentity, unless it evere t ca n 7 rri ln e til s u h o r n n t u h l e e t f f . should affirm this resolution, his would be a theycould appoint Members representing all these diffe rent interests on the Committee. He did not t hen n f the house other resolution, to the effect that the t H moveh an other appoint a Select Committee himself consider it a matter of importance that or resolvoeusietseelf s hould 4 a . Committee to inquire into the state of the representa tion. or - four directors of railway' companies Lion. .It might, however, be said that this inquiry would were included among the , members of the. Com last a long time, and that the supplies could not be dis inittee. The labours .of the Committee were merely pensed with for so long a . time as that inquiry would preliminary, and if it should appear that any recom uvudation of the Committee had been carried solely by last. H e did not wish to impede the granting the sup / tire r v' 4 . _ 1: 41 1ei rail ray directors it would lose a great Plies. But if_ the Government should th ink , fit to grant ' .." h i t ich would be otherwise attached to , this i nqu i ry he would be ready to vote for the suppl ies IA, ' ,1 s • ere were many other gentlemen j f . f • long inqu iry e three, our , or six months, or as as that , -quiry • e n anxious to have seen oa that ! '"° ' 1 UV' lej,e n raeticable. There v • - -_, , - , was she ' should *4 The question now raised was not whether ~.- -_,-.--- ,- 1 ~.,, 4.., 7 1- 3, tack as the present House of Commons.-,-(Hear, heir.) He would find a petition would be brought up signed by several hundred thousands of persons, alleging that they were deprived of the tight of suffrage, that they arraigned the Parliament as incompetent to perform its functions, and that the new House of Parliament, being so arraigned, would be h oun d, b e f ore performing its legislative functions, to admit its own incompe tency, and to institute an inquiry into the grievances cent plained of. He should have thought, indeed, during a great portion of the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, that he was stenuously contending for a repeal of the Reform Act—( Hear, hear, and cheers)—and urging them to recur to the constitu tion of their old Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) For a great part of his argument directly went to show that the infusion of more of the popular and demoeratic principle into that House had disappointed all public expectation, and nad inflicted grievances and evils upon the country, from w nick, without that infusion, they would have been exempt.—(Cheers.) And this was not merely a taunt, directed at the Noble Lord, the author of the Reform Bill.—(Hear, hear, and cheers. ) The Honourable Gentleman was prepared with elabo rate arguments, was provided with returns and estimates, to show that taking the years from 1822 to 1836. under the Parliament as at present constituted, under the Parliament, reformed as it is, there had been an adlition to the burdens borne by the people.—( Loud cheers.) In 1822, he said the unreformed Parliament only required a standing army of 91,000 men ; but he said they reformed the Parliament, they permitted the middling classes to exercise an influence over elections, and that was the result. The standing army has been increased from 91,000 to 137,000 men !—(Cheers.) And taxation has been increased by the amount of ten millions I— ( Cheers.) Why, it appeared to him, the Hon. Gentleman's legitimate conclusion must be—let us go back to the times when the standing army was only 91,000 men, and when taxa tion-was ten millions less—( Hear, hear)—rather than follow the Hon. Gentleman on the path be himself invited them to pursue—a farther reform of the Parliamentary constitution of the country.—( Hear, hear.) And all the Hon. Gentleman's arguments went to show that attachment to liberty, and re sistance to oppression, did not at all depend on the Constitu tion itself; for see, said the Hon. Gentleman, what the Par liament did in 1693 !—( Loughter and cheers, and " 1642 " from an Hon. Member.) The Hon. Gentleman said 1642, but he (Sir R. Peel) was speaking of 1693. The Par liament then passed what some called a Bill, and others a De claration of Rights, in which the Parliament claimed for the people the right of having their Parliaments frequently called together. William the Third—a power ful Monarch, with strong claims on the gratitude of the people, departed from that claim, and the House of Commons refused the supplies, or menaced to do so, till the faith s.f the Crown was pledged that the claim should be fulfilled. Yet that virtuous Parliament which, backed by the House of Lords, for two successive years controlled, and, in the opinion of the Hon. Gentleman, Justly controlled, the Crown—that. Parlia m-nt had a much less free constitution than the Parliament in which the Hon. Gentleman himself held his seat.—( Loud cheers.) If, then, he were to judge from the greater portion of the Hon. Gentleman's speech, his decided inference would be this, that the Hon. Gentleman was no friend to popular principles—(Cheers and laughter)—his inference would be, that this gentleman was making an ingenious and logical argu ment for the purpose of showing that it would be wise for them at the present day to go back to the period of 1822, and still wiser, if they had the courage to do it, to go back at once to 1693.—( Cheers and laughter.) That was the inference he should have drawn from the greater portion of the Hon. Gen tleman's speech. But then there was a commendation of the present Parliament, qualified, however, in some material re spects, for the Hon. Gentleman payed a compliment to him ( Sir R. Peel), for which he was sincerely thankful. He stated that when it became necessary to make great exertions in order to equalise revenue with expenditure the present Parliament did—what ? Did they impose additional burdens on the work ing classes ?—( Cheers. ) Did they tax articles of necessity, or those articles which had been so much con sumed by the people of this country that, though perhaps not to be strictly called articles of necessity, yet were so essential to the comforts of the people that they partook of the nature of articles of necessity ? The Hon. Gentleman's charge against the present Parliament was, that it had raised the revenue by three or four millions ; but had it increased the taxation on articles of necessity? No; the Hon. Gentle man said, so persuaded were they by his ( Sir R. Peel's) voice, the effect of his turning round to this side of the House was so great, that the present Parliament was content to tax themselves, and to lay that additional borders on themselves, instead of trying to raise the revenue from the great body of the people.—(Cheers.) They did so, and, in doing so, he could not think that they had betrayed that insensibility for the sufferings of the people, or that keen desire of promoting their own selfish and exclusive interests, with which the Hon. Gentleman charged them, and which, he seemed to think, formed a sufficient ground for abdicating their present position, and admitting the charge of their incompetency to be per fectly well founded. Why, with respect to a vast number of these questions, they were not unwilling to enter into inquiry into a great many of them. Take the poor-laws, for instance. The Hon. Gentleman represented the poor-laws as one of the grievances of which they had to complain. Why, did the House of Commons pass the poor-laws merely from a wish to pass a new law, and without any previous inquiry? A Commission was appointed by the Crown, an inquiry was made, and abuses were brought to light. In passing the poor-laws, the House of Commons had no other object than good—. seeing the old poor-law was diminishing the com forts, and undermining the independence of, the people ; and they incurred great unpopularity by attempting to intro duce a remedy. But that was not till after great inquiry had been made. Then, with respect to the Bank charter; he should like to know, after the Hon. Gentleman succeeded in getting lu there oeor e wereshould a C o vo t eduid om be m t nh i t oe t t e s eu tillpo p f t yt h h v e e w tiße h ds o n : — e k House,hoehses h oul d oteurl a and wdl like that h a tot inquiredka know o r w e s intohour he would get any practicable inquiry into it? But was the Hon. Gentleman aware of the inquiry that had already been made into the subject of the Bank charter, joint-stock banks, and all the other banking establishments of this countr y ? Had he made himself master of these inquiries? Did he know that for three successive sessions one branch alone of that inquiry occupied the attention of a Committee of that House? At the termination of the first session the evidence heard by that Com mittee was not completed, and with the universal assent of Par liament another Committee was appointed. That Committee sat during two sessions, and even then did not make a report to the House. Was the Hon. Gentleman ignorant of this inquiry? If he were not, how could he affirm that we have entered into none of these grievances. If he thought the inquiry had been an evasive one, be only wished him joy of the sort of inquiry which he would get at the bar of that House into all the questions of the Bankcharter, joint-stock banks, and the whole currency of the country. And what were they to do with the question of the Established Church while that inquiry went on ? He would venture to say that the inquiry into the Bank charter and the whole change of the currency in 1819, would occupy five months, and he must therefore postpone, ad Grams Ka lendas, the inquiry into any other subject. But, in fact, these questions had been inquired into already, by the effective intervention of a Select Committee. With respect to other questions, such as the Church establishment, reform of Parliament—these questions were rather to be decided on by the deliberate tense of the House, after due discussion, than by inquiry either by a Select Committee or by the whole House. On these grounds, then, and without raising any other objections to the motion of the Hon. Gentle man, he felt bound to resist it. He contended it was utterly impracticable ; it would be absurd to pass a resolution pledging themselves to an inquiry into all these eight on ten subjects, which constituted almost the whole state of their domestic society ; for the House of Commons to present itself to the people, confessing its own incompetency, declaring itself to be criminal, and abdicating its functions, because a petition was presented two or three years since charging them with having an imperfect constitution, on account of the right of suffrage being) withheld from a great portion of the people—he con fessed he thought it very improbable that the House of Com mons would consent to place itself in that position before the country.—( Cheers ) With respect to many of the details Into which the Hon. Gentleman had ventured, on a general occasion like this, they hardly admitted of a satisfaCtory examination. With respect to the article of tea, he stated that we had committed a gross and scandalous injustice, because they placed an equal duty all kinds of tea. Why, the opposite system was tried, and there was at one time a discriminating duty on the article. That system was abandoned—not by an act of the Government, but after a mature inquirybefore the House of Commons, and in consequence of the difficulty attend ing the collection of the discriminating duty. It was not abandoned from any desire to bear hard on the interests of the working classes, but because the interests of the revenue re quired it. He ventured to say that if the Hon. Gentleman could insure an equal amount of revenue by the operation of the discriminating duty, there would be no objection to ap portion the tax to the quality of the tea. With respect to the duty on beer. that did not weigh with particular force against the present Government, by one of the members of which the tax on beer, as distinguished from malt, was removed. He altogether denied the charges brought against that House. A full inquiry had been instituted into several of these matters, and he believed there was a strong desire on the part of that House with regard to taxation, to consult the interests of those upon whom, under any sys tem, the burden of taxation must fall. But above all, "eon -tinned the Right Hon. Baronet, I conjure the House not to lower itself in the eyes of this country, and declare it is unfit to perform the great duty it is called on to discharge, by ad mitting its incompetency as a Legislature, because a petition numerously signed has been presented to it, claiming for the whole of the people of this country a right to the possession of the suffrage.—( Cheers. ) Mr. HUME admitted that some of the arguments of his Hon. Friend were not so applicable to the resolution as others had been; but he put it to the Right Hon. Baronet who had just sat down (Sir R. Peel), and he put it to the House, whe ther any time could be more appropriate, any opportunity more convenient, for bringing his proposition before the House than that which had been chosen. The constitutional doctrine was to bring forward the state of the country- whew the- means of carrying on the service of the country were asked at the hands of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore, he thought the Right Hon. Baronet decidedly wrong in stating that this was not the proper time for bringing forward such a resolution. And had, be (Sir R. Peel) taken any notice of the observarions which had fallen from his Hon. Friends in moving and seconding that resolution? Had be not merely skimmed over these ob servations, and directed his remarks to the resolution itself, refraining carefully from grappling with the facts and statements which were elicited in support of it ? Again, had the Right Hon. Baronet taken any notice of the general dis tress, the almost universal destitution, which overspread the country , ? Does he deny that distress, that appalling suffering? No ! If he does not, then, why refuse to agree to the reso lution, for his Hon. Friend had distinctly stated that the chief ground on which he brought it forward was this far-spread misery. And all these miseries, afflictions, and casualties were in a country abounding in everything which could make man happy, and render society blessed. And could any man shut his eyes to the facts adduced, and deny a due attention to the observations of his Hon. Friend? He (Mr. Williams) distinctly stated that it was on account of the frightful and in creasing destitution of the people, and on that account only, that he asked the House to agree to the aesoluton that had been submitted to it. He (Mr. Hume) did not ask the Honourable Baronet or the House to agree in all that the resolution stated, but he challenged them to look over it, and to deny, if they could, many of the statements it contained. But the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had, in fact, shuffled the question altogether.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) It did not appear to him (Mr. Hume) that the Government intended to do any thing at all this.session for the people, but to go on, as they did fast session, and let the destitution make, if that were pos sible, even greater head than it had done. He (Mr. Hume) bad been urged, out of the House , to s u pp ort thi s motion. ee to d givey r e qt their support i r- Out of doors they ascribed the misery and destitution that pre vailed to the bad legislation which t ook p lace in it, a nd to the hope for sy mpathy looked as a remedy, to it, as he (Mr. Hume) felt himself bound to do. In the year 1835, it w as threatened a stop the supplies, h u t h e suggestions those fo i n whomthis they resolution could they (Mr. Hume) believed that he was about the only person who was sincere in his determination to do so, had the anticipated emergency really arisen. At that time an Administration—a liberal and popular Administration— had ben rejected by the Crown against the will of the House.—(" Hear, hear," from the Tory benches.) The Crown was •about to go on with a Government which did not enjoy the confidence of that House. —(Continued cries of " Hear, hear" from the Tory benches.) What could they do, had the Crown persisted in its unwise and unconstitutional course, but deprive it of the means of acting in defiance of the House of Commons ? Sir R. PEEL—" Hear, hear." Mr. HUME—What was their situation no- ? If the Right Ron. Baronet had a majority it was well known to be a ma- jority that carried measures in direct opposition to the interests and against the wishes of the people. Why, it was that ma jority that voted the money. And, therefore, what the people wanted was to change the constitution of that House, alleging as they did that it did not truly represent them, their in terests, their wants, or their wishes. The people out of doors declared that the House did not represent them, but only a sixth part of them. He (Mr. Hume) would go further than his Hon. Friend (Mr. Williams), that a rerormed Parliament ae now existing had done acts which an unre formed Parliament would not have dreamt of deing.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) They might cheer. He understood their cheers well, and in answer to them he would ask, did they carry that Reform Bill which was originally pro mised, which was originally proposed, and which, had it been carried, would have had a very dif ferent effect upon the national interests than the present Bill had ?—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) Did not the Noble Lord ( Lord John Russell) who brought in the Reform Bill in 1831 declare that the whole and sole object its flamers had in view was, that all should be represented in the Commons' House, and that individual interests and class legis lation should never more be heard of?—( Hear, hear.) Did the Noble Lord do what he promised—was he permitted to do so? Was he allowed to carry his first. Bill—the Bill really worth having? No such thing. The suffrage was so narrowed and clogged in that House by gentlemen opposite—the Bill was so cut and carved, mutilated and maimed, that the objects which the Noble Lord intended were wholly and completely defeated. Aye, and the very author of the Bill itself turned round and assisted to check its flee operation. But was that any answer to the people out of doors, or were they ton proud and too strong in their majority to take any heed of them or their prayers. All knew how that majority had been obtained. Still he did not blame the House so much as many people did. Per haps the House was bet ter than the electors. —( Loud laughter. ) He really believed this to be so.—( Cheers, and great laughter.) Much has he blamed many, very many of the con stituencies, he knew well enough there were most honourable exceptions to the corruption which too notoriously prevailed in them. But many of them had acted a most corrupt part, sending to that House, by the filthy means of bribery, a ma jority of individuals who, the moment they took their seats, thought nothing whatever of the country, but studied and legis lated for class interests alone. These were the parties he blamed. In England there were only from six to seven hundred thousand electors who voted. Was the whole adult population to be oppressed because a limited number of persons alone, to whom the House chose to give the suffrage, were base and unprincipled in the performance of their duty? It was such reasons as these which had induced the bringing for ward of this motion. It was bad legislation—legislation in fa vour of monopolies and class interests, which had caused all these evils, and no wonder the people looked out for some radical means of staying this vicious legislation, and construct ing a better and worthier system. Could there be anything more preposterous or more unjust than that in England there should be two classes—the free class and the slave class ?—(A laugh.) Why slavery did exist in England. and to as' great an extent as - in any other country, if not ta a greater. lie turned, the other day, to a definition of the slave and the free man, which he thought so good and so just, that he would read it to the House. The definition of a free man was—" One to give assent to the laws of the State, either in person or by his representative ;" and of that class there were between six and seven hundred thousand in Eng land ; for though the number of registered voters might be about nine hundred thousand, not more than the number he had stated generally voted. And what was the definition of a slave? This—" To have no will of his own in the making of the laws, either in person or by representative, but to be go verned by the rule of other men, set in authority over him." Now to that definition, which he had extracted from the Times newspaper—(A burst of laughter)—aye, but it was from a Times of some few years back, when it was the advocate of every sound and good measure that the country could boast of.—(Opposition cheers.) To that definition he (Mr. Hume) gave in his entire and hearty adhesion. So in England they had seven hundred thousand freemen, and all the rest were slaves.—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) He was glad to hear Hon. Gentlemen approve of what he stated, and he should be happy to hear a definition more appropriate, if, indeed, one more appropriate could be found. From some returns of the electors in boroughs and counties, the result of an analysis which he had made, was that 347 Members out of 65M--that was a great majority of that House—werereturned by 180.600 voters. Consequently the power over the whole country was in reality vested in 180,000 persons. Now, what did this show ? It proved the very limited num ber f the persons who had the power of ruling the destinies of the country, for good or evil. No more than one-fortieth of the male adult population of the country possessed the fran chise ; and this could not be considered a fair system of representation. So much for the constitution of the House. It was, therefore, idle to use the term of freemen towards the unrepresented classes—they were no more than slaves, for no stale ever suffered so much from mismanagement as the great mass of the people of England. The Legislature, as at pre sent constituted, supported monopoly and heavy taxation, and no man could deny it. He thought his Hon. Friend's argu ment with respect to the poor-laws had been unfairly treated. The principle that every man should depend upon his own la bour instead of being dependent upon the industry of others —that was the principle on which he supported the Bill when it was first introduced ; but the cruelty and injustice was this, that while the Legislature declared that every man should depend upon his own industry, they passed laws which pre vented the poor man from procuring labour, and also taxed his food, and thus prevented him from supporting himseelf. He had even supported the poor-laws, because he considered that it prevented the idle from living upon the means of the more industrious classes; but, at the same time, he meant that the Legislature should give every man an opportunity of living by his own labour, and, to the honour of Englishmen, he should say that they alway s p re f erre d gett i ng the i r livelihood by their own exertions instead of being dependent upon others. What the country wanted was a system of free trade, by which the demand for labour would he increased, and therefore all monopolies were unjust. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite did not at all notice the subject of the corn-laws, and sorry was he to say that those laws were kept up for their own interests by both Houses of Parliament. The Right Hon. Baronet did not acknowledge that he was aware those laws had the effect of diminishing the demand for labour. He (Mr. Hnme) could only say that at least seven-eigththsef the revenue derived from the Customs was taken out of the pockets of the poor men, and yet the House of Commons burdened them with taxes and restrictions for selfish motives. Surely this conduct was unworthy of a number of gentlemen who called themselves Christians. The first evil under which the country groaned was a defective system of representation. Let the voice of the millions be heard within the walls of that House, and then no further cause of griev ance would remain. The only question was would anything be done for the amelioration of the condition of the people. Whenever any attempt was made during a remote period to urge forward the cause of Reform, the same answer was invariably given as that of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite. His Hon. Friend would be ready to adopt any arrangements that could be made, provided there was a beginning made in redressing the grievances of the country, for he was sore that where there was a will there was a way. The Right Hon. Baronet had admitted the existence of those grievances, and had said that the best and most proper place for inquiry_ into those grievances would be in a Committee of the House of Commons. Now he (Mr. Hume) would say, that there ought to be a Committee appointed to investigate every grievance, even if it took forty Committees at a time—( A laugh)—and let them bring a report before the House, and then have the House act on their recommendation. But whether they made this inquiry now or not, he felt as sured that eventually relief, must be given. He perceived that the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln seemed amused at some of his remarks, but he (Mr. Hume) thought he was the last man who would be induced to laugh at the distresses of .the country. He concurred cordially in all that had fallen from his Hon. Friend, and would support his motion, except the last paragraph of it. . Colonel SIBTHOIIP contended the Honourable Mem ber for Montrose was not justified in saving that the country was in distress, as in the county he lived in every labourer was in full employments He had received a letter the other day, a portion of which he would read. The writer says :—" Sir Robert Peel has every reason to be proud of the position he at present stands in from the improved condition of the country." That was the letter he had.—( Laughter.) He had no doubt the country would prosper under the present Administration, notwithstanding the poison and venom of the Anti-Corn-law League, and those quack doctors, who were going about the country, not caring how many they cured, and not telling how many they killed. Mr. TRELAWNEY said that he had been requested to support the present motion, but he was not prepared to go the length it proposed.--( Hear, hear.) He admitted the people had many grievances to be redressed, but he could not sanction the present proceeding.—( Hear, hear.) Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion Against it ... Majority against the motion THE LANDLORD AND TENANT COMMISSION. Mr. WAKLEY rose to put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, with respeet to the Landlord and Tenant Commission in Ireland. He had been much startled the other evening, at hearing the Right Hon. Baronet declare that the Commission was wholly composed of Irish landlords. The other statements of the Right Hon. Ba ronet with respect to the Commission were very gratifying. He, however, believed that it was utterly impossible that the Commission could fulfil the desired object, if it consisted merely of Irish landlords. The discussion that evening with respect to the appointment of persons on the Railway Committee turned very much upon the appointment of persons interested in railways upon the Committee, to which much objec• tion was urged. He did not mean to cast the slight est reproach on the appointment of the Irish Commission, but. he did say that it would have been more satisfactory if the Commission had been composed of tenants as well as landlords. He was sure that all the farmers' friends in that House would vote for such persons being en such a Commission. He believed the complaints generally in Ireland were against the landlords and not the tenants; it therefore seemed but reasonable that they should expect some tenants on the Commission. He hoped, therefore, that the Right Hon. Baronet would not ob ject to introduce some tenants into this Commission. An Irish Member remarked to him (Mr. Wakley) the other evening, that there was no tenant in Ireland competent to go into the in quiry. If that were true, it was the most extraordinary thing he had heard of. At any rate, if it were true, he knew that there would be no difficulty finding tenants in this country capable of being placed on the Commission.—(A laugh.) H e felt if this course was adopted, that it would give satisfaction to England as well as Ireland. Sir R. PEEL said there was one proposal of the Hon. Gen tleman which he certainly could not adopt, namely, that of sending English tenants to be members of the Irish Commis. lion.—(Laughter.) If he (Sir R. Peel) had made that pro posal, and had said that tenants in Ireland were not competent to be upon the Commission, what would Hon. Gentlemen then have said ?—( Hear, hear.) He could well anticipate the man ner in which the Government would have been addressed. Mr. WAKLEY—I did not say so. Sir R. PEEL did not agree with the Irish Member, who ever he was. It was certainly not his (Sir R. Peel's) fault that these persons were not on the Commission. The first person the Government applied to to become a member of the Commission was Mr. More O'Ferrall.-- ( Hear, hear.) He was selected on account of the great knowledge he had shown of the subject, and on account of the sympathy manifested by him for the condition of the occupying tenantry. That gentleman declined on account of his health. He (Sir R. Peel) mentioned this to show that the Government had had no intention of mixing up questions of a religious description with the question to ba inquired into by the Commission. He wished to show the animus of the Government in appointing this Commission, and be was sure that from the estimation in which the members of the Commission were held in Ireland, and from the sympathy they had shown for the condition of the occupying tenantry, that public confidence would be given to them. The first step taken by the Commission was to put themselves in communication with the poor-law guardians, from whom they obtained a cordial response. The Commis sionear: had made thei r report, as far as it had gone, J: compre hensive hensive as possible. As yet the labours of the had given the greatest satisfaction, and lie thought under these circumstances that it would be unwise to make any alterations in it. he Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORDwthisehelotatomisstsaitaen,, thatwithout meaning to fasten any imputation on was aware that a feeling of dissati s f ac tion had . beenc e re e a d te a s p l e i n n Ireland in consequence of none but l r a e n a d t l e o r r confidence if other the Commission. It would p l aced persons, not landlords , were pve on that Commission. lie perfectly agreed in the possibility of placing tenants on the Commission. He thought such persons ought to he placed on the Commission, inasmuch as they were part of the great mass into whose condition the Commission had to inquire. He thought it would meet the views of all parties, if persons who were neither landlords ner tenants were placed on the Com' mission. Mr. ROSS could corroborate what had fallen from his Hon. Friend. He knew that tenants capable of serving on the Com— mission could easily be found in Ireland. Lord ELIOT wished to know if the Hon. Gentleman meant that those parties should be paid for their service', or whether he meant that they would serve gratuitously ? Mr. ROSS had no doubt that many could be found ready to serve gratuitously. RIOTS AT ROSKEEN. Mr. FOX MAULS said he wished t; ask the Lord Advo cate, whether any steps had been taken for inquiring into the treatment of certain persons taken up for having created a riot at Roskeen, and whether any prosecutions had been instituted against any of them. The question which he was about to ask arose out of disputes connected with the Church of Scotland. A riot had taken place, and certain per sons were apprehended. The authorities were provided net only with the ordinary civil force and officers of the Ex cise service, but also with a body of artillery. Six men were apprehended on the 2d of October, and on the 3d, at two o'clock in the morning, they were locked up in a place of con finement. There was a guard-house, which had been built fur a barrack, the windows of which were secured by iron bars. In this barrack there was an inner room and and an outer one' Nothing could have been easier, nor could be more secure , than placing these men in the inner room, and filling the outer room with armed men ; but, instead of this, they locked the men up in a bank sate—(Laughter)—a room, the dimensions of which were as follow :—nine feet eleven inches and a heir long, three feet nine inches broad, and six feet eleven inches high. This room had been built particularly for the et" elusion of all air or ventilation, and as a protection against fire. In this room they were locked up seven hours. One individual was taken so ill that he vomited blood—(A laugh)—the cries of the other prisoners forced the attention of his guards upon them, and one prisoner was re moved. The other five remained there until nine o'clock in the morning, and the Lord Lieutenant of the county, a 1 0- mane man, who had acted with the greatest prudence and con sideration throughout, ordered their liberation. He had been further informed that one of those prisoners had been discharge,' by the magistrates, there having been no proof whatever ageing t him, and the other five were admitted to bail, and had ne; been yet tried. Whether these men were guilty or innocent it mattered not. If what he stated were true they were moil improperly and cruelly treated. He wished to ask the Lora Advocate whether the facts bore any resemblance to what he had stated, and if so, whether he had taken any steps to punish the individuals who had committed so great a erio e under the cloak of administering justice. The horrors of that place were not surpassed by the black hole of Calcutta. He wished to know from the Lord Advocate, if it was the Wel; tion of the authorities to bring those men who had been 1' cruelly treated to trial, where they might have an opportun it l of vindicating their innocence or satisfying justice. The LORD ADVOCATE said, that he had ascertained that the five individuals mentioned were confinett in ap apartment of small size, but not for the whole, time specified by the Honourable Gentleman. They wen placed in this apartment because the authorities feen there would be an attempt at rescue, as prisoners lately been rescued from that place. The prisoners we re locked up at three or four o'clock in the morning, and eeni fined till nine o'clock, but the doors were frequently opens. during that time, and they were often asked by th elr guards if they wished for anything. His attention had lately been directed to the matter by a paragraph ; newspaper. The prisoners were brought before the Sheri and the Lord Lieutenant the following day, but to these ge, ° : tlemen they had not made the slightest complaint. He OR" Lord Advocate) had directed inquiries to be made into file matter, but he was not yet prepared to say what particulf course he might pursue regarding these parties , by whose I t rections the prisoners were confined ; in fact, be bad Igo been able to learn on whom the blame properly rested. regretted that a milder course had net been adopted. 1 1 ,7,, prisoners in other parts of Scotland who had been engag e - ' the riots, were dealt with in a very lenient manner—they nts'A not subjected to much trouble or expense, and they were Ve.T; at the local courts, where the degree of punishment that COn be inflicted was limited. SUPPLY. On the question for going into Committee of Supply b eil l put, Mr. BLEWITT said he hoped before the Speaker left th Chair, the House would allow him to correct an unfair O r ment which had appeared in one of the newspapers with rer pect to the question which he had asked last night on the an a . Jett of the Civil List.—(Laughter.) It had been stated If one of the Morning Journals that he had made a very itne.P,..„ allusion to the Queen in connection with the Civil LI"_„,1 ( Laughter.) Now he could truly declare that a more 1 0 . , and faithful subject of her Majesty than himself did not Or o —(Laughter from the Ministerial benches.) The House W i n perfectly aware that such a rumour as he hid alluded to yes circulation ; and if he had been the humble instrument of PLlti ting an end to the report, and of restoring her Majesty to popularity--( Roars of laughter)—which she had hitherto:o% toyed, he should feel perfectly satisfied with the result.--(11,0. hear.) He could only say that he had not the slighte st le ' tion of bringing her Alsjesty into disrepute, but b e tho:B..P._ that when false reports of this kind were circulated ou t of d .011; an opportunity of correcting them should be afforded in House.—( Hear, hear. ) The re . The House then went into Committee of Supply. - itgo solutions were agreed to. The House resumed, and the port was ordered to be brougbt up to-morrow. The House then adjourned at Half-past Ten. MIDDLESEX and SURREY GRAND JUNCTION RAILWAY. We beg to call the attention of our readers t o t . fi lie above railway—an advertisement of which aPP e e'qs in our columns of to-day —not only on account g general merits as a junction railway, which carl°, fail to interest the commercial and manufact uring interest of the kingdom, but also in a military P°,i n i ; of view. It appears to us that the facilities wh y t the proposed line will afford to the transit of troori and military stores to that portion of the coast °J, Kent in particular which has so recently at tr act ed the attention of the Government, will necessarily re' commend it to the serious consideration of our pro; fessional readers ; and we ourselves are convince d that if the intended line should obtain the sanctioo, of the Legislature, the defence of the coast r e Kent will . be easily secured, without incurring tfe expenses of batteries and • lines which was at °' time contemplated. His Grace the Duke of W eil l ton, in his evidence before the COmmittee of th e 110 % ,. of Commons in the last session, referring to the necO V , of establishing a harbour of refuge between s i r° r , mouth and the Downs, readily admitted that 0;4 warfare, in the strict sense of the word, Wa s 4, sufficient to protect the coast from an invading_ 2l. lllo and that the system of maritime warfare ("Y t ion power of steam) was such as to render the Si''.t t 16 of a fleet in the Downs totally insecure. Nc l l y '„"ths clear that, by the junction line proposed betw e ';'o Birmingham, Great 'Western, South Westerivverf Dover lines, a supply of troops from almos t . e e o ts part of the kingdom—from the most remote don, and garrisons —may be commanded—say ` si r e or and Winchester, and Maidstone—within ti! ~. t Of fourteen hours ; and within that time the 07relf Kent may be bristling with bayonets! W e sin c 4 trust that the line, in this national point of vie W i . fa( already attracted the notice of Government----anecieff our own parts, we wish the bold undertaking.oo is' success. The atmospheric principle of locoto° tl 0 f t he we observe, recommended to the consideration . shareholders.— United Service Gazette. ADVERTISEIkttNT4 SUPPLEMENTS RATIS WITH THE " DISPATCH." Every Week during the DUBLIN GREAT NATIONAL TRIAL AT DU D ' A succession of SUPPLEMENTS GRATIS WILL BE PU WITH THE DISPATCH. 1 6 The First on SUNDAY, February 4, con- } taining Mr. Sheil's Speech, a gem of oratory... The Second (of the full size of the'WEEKLY DISPATCH) on SUNDAY, February 11, con taining the 'Speeches of Mr. Whiteside, Mr. 48 O'Connell, and other Leading Counsel who may address the Court in the course of the Week, for which the services of several Short- • • hand Writers of Eminence have been engaged 01 b e I , The dimensions of the succeeding Supplements lf,ot.Sts gulated by the importance of the matter ; but the All, • plement will be also of the full size of the DISPA';, e pros form the early portion of the trial, and embrace Thrthe ings from the commencement to that stage at wli,,, c r aSic• begins, so that every subscriber to the WE-e151011,.6-00 I'ATCII will be in possession of a complete an d o .4„ l _tiOr cord of this great national trial—a trial which i n ea t oL• a• matter of history, and ever be regarded as an es 1(01' usual importance. f eCO tite': A BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH of MR. ~I nl ,v 0 will precede the account of the Trial, whic h -I 0 0 0 0 1 ( by a Gentleman intimately acquainted with ei j 01 ) Agitator," and consequently one who has treasa A reminiscences that will render the Biography general and absorbing interest. ' , eal o pis i _ cl ti a The SUPPLEMENTS, forming a great num b , - n od .f ;Ann will be printed uniformly with the DISPATe'too ip a quantity of information equal to at least ail 1 t of 1,000 pages. Jig / .13 9 P Orders received by every Bookseller and js , tr e offic e '. • the United Kingdom, and at th e DISPAT CH ' O l Fleet-street. 0 Ae tls° ti CLOSE OF HOLIDAYS. —Now that On o r ope o ' t , annual festivity is about to terminate, and i ., 0 00° 11 0 , 11 01 1 boarding-schools be re-instated by the busy o f . o ful aspirants, the personal comfort and attraction relatesnior nd l • • become naturally an object with friends A, r t oooff great solicitude, Rowland's Macassar Oil, lc! 00 10 10 ( i bi co" l .4-.loo i . e ' the growth and for preserving and bcautifyl Rowland's Kalydor, for preserving the skin en i l i.n o 1-1; and removing cutaneous eruptions ; and Rol f ; OuT co ofir for beautifying the Teeth, and preserving universally considered indispensable in th!_f_ e s q, g n ' Tt:P... a rr ie paniments of the decorative repository. lr the seq . ' 00 1 ; age conceded by our gracious Queen, anu,.. w hict cl c oa, tvielerecigirnesleosf of proipnec,etlyogaeitlldierregwat thettgn pilealunt;citocyd., cn tn tin. - ti r itt. firmation by experience of the infallible en' terise the p it creative renovating specifics, have charactireded. coos• perfection, and given them a celebrity unp " All others are spuno_us BIRTHS. 5. Af tlia On the 1 0 th ult. , a t Creme, near Milan, roller ton, of a son. ire On the Ist inst., at Hastings, the lady Of E. of of a son. Re O v n ui th r e . j 9 e d if i , n o s f t. a , s a o t n. Christ Church, Oxford, the If ______----------- ig, MARRIED. On the 3 d inst. , at Fe rrin g , near Worthing, h i‘f te r ; .°6ll- • C. Woolaa 'r, of London, to Mary Ann second clang- John Bright, yeoman. ' . Ogg' DIED. he foi l On the 28th of December, at Malta, Ileathfieldt , r : g est son of the Rev. Samuel Dandy, of Dorkint S,, urr ec !" SA lliki On the Sth ult., at Malta, Anna, wife oft e -lb • - _... Dandy, of Dorkina, S 0 k urrey. t ser tes, On the 30th ult., Mrs. bowler, of Judd -place, road. ppo in London: Printed and P u bli s hed by MU . No. 112, Strand, at The Sum Office, 15i0.1129 County of Middlesex, Weduesday, Febraar7