The Sun. — London, England, 1839-06-25 00:00:00

EVENING EDIT lON. LAW INTELLIGENCE. COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH, JuxE 21. THE QUEEN V. DAVID JONES. This was the case of the prosecution instituted in the Eccle siastical Court against the defendant, a farmer of Carmarthen shire, for an alleged neglect of duty as a Churchwarden, in not furnishing the sacramental bread and wine, &c., for the service of the Church in his parish. The defendant had been cited be fore the Surrogate of the Bishop's Court, and not obeying the orders of that Court, a significavit had been issued, which set forth the alleged disobedience ; among other things, in not Paying a sum of 35/. Ils. 4d. costs, taxed in the suit against the defendant, instituted by the Rev. Ebenezer Morris, for the supposed neglect of duty. On this significavit a writ de con tumace capiendo issued, and under it the defendant was taken and lodged in Carmarthen goal, where he had remained since the mon:h of December last. A rule had been obtained to set aside this writ, on the ground that it had been issued only by the Surrogate and not by the Bishop. The case was argued a short time ago, and the Court had taken time to consider the decision. Lord DENMAN now delivered judgment. He said that ir. reference to the old authorities it appeared that the writ of sig niflcArit could not properly be issued by the Surrogate or in his name, but must be issued in the name of the Bishop himself. It was required that the contempt should be signified by the Bishop, and on that signification the process of contempt issued. The Court was of opinion that the old practice was not in this respect altered by the statute 53 Geo. 111. There was no statement in the statute of such a power being conferred on the Surrogate, which there would have been had the Legislature intended to confer it. The rule must therefore be absolute. UNE 22. THE QUEEN V. DAVID JONES. Lord DENMAN said, that in this ease, wherein the Court hall given judgment on Friday, their Lordships v:ere, upon fur ther consideration, disposed to think that they had not the Power to set aside a writ issued by the Court of Chancery, but they could at all events order the discharge of the defendant out Of custody, and they would say that he should have his costs, provided he agreed not to bring any action. Mr. CHILTON, on the part of the defendant, begged to be allowed a short time to consider whether he would not rather have the costs left out of the question than to have the defen dant bound not to bring an action. The Court acceded to this. CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT. THE GOLD DUST ROBBERY. (Continued from our Paper of yesterday.) Carne's examination, by Mr. Bodkin, continued— It was dated on the 23d of March 1839, and requested to cor rect the error-the writer had fallen into, and desired Hartley to deliver two boxes, marked B and C, 18 and 19, to W. Marsh, 11., agent to the Brazilian Mining Company, and was signed w• and E. _C. Came.. Witness was shown another letter, srhieh he also pronounced to be a forgery. The post mark is Falmouth, and it purported to be a letter from W. and E. C. Carne to W. Marsh, Esq., advising him or the shipping on board the City of Limerick of the two boxes in question ; un derneath was written in a different hand writing 4. Mr. Bris tow, please to deliver the above. Messrs. Carne have advised me about them. L. Caspar." The si g nature bears a resem blance to the signature of the firm, but the hand-writing of !Lie body of the letter bears no resemblance to the writing of niinself or clerks. He never gave Hartley any authority to deliver the boxes except to the Bank of England. Cross-examined by Sergeant BOMPAS—Hugo, his clerk, blad e out the manifest ; he does not write letters of importance for witness ; he is not here ,• does not call a manifest a letter of importance: His partner has equal coetroul over the busi ness with himself. The partners generally write the letters. The body of the letter is not at all like the hand- writing of any °f his clerks. The signatures are an imitation of his brother's writing. Cross-examined by Mr. C. PHILLIPS —lt is a good imita tion of his brother's hand. His brother is in good health, and us Cornwall. Robert Jordan examined by Mr. DOANE.—IS in the service ,°` Messrs. Carne, as clerk. On the 2.2 d of March shipped bean boxes on board the City of Limerick s t eamer , w hi c h h a d vein received from the Seagull packet, one marked 18 and the other 19, both were marked C B ; they con esponded with the Inanifest and bill of lading which had been put in. Cross-examined by Sergeant BOMPAS.—The captain of the cagull brought them to the office, and witness saw them Aped on board the steamer. ohn Master, examined by Mr. DOANE—Is a lighterman, It es in Frederick-street, Bermondsey ; remembe r , the City rLimerick steamer arriving in the River on 25th Ma rc h, the Dublin Steam Wharf, called the Irongate Wh ar f, ear l y i n the morning about seven o'clock. the John Bigg s, examined by Mr. DOA NE—Was a labourer at iron a te Wharf in M arc h last. ; reme m b ers th e arr i va l o f the City of Limerick there on the 25th March. Saw the ship's 41 , at the wharf; took it to Mr. Hartley's o ffi ce in John-street a bout eight o'clock that morning. t John Moffatt, examined_ by Mr. CLARKSON—Commands last stea me City f Limerick ; sailed from Falmouth on 22d bo xes March r , about e igh t o'clock in the morning. Received two ares fro m M r . J or d an; put them into the money-room, under cabin-floor, and l ocked the room. Arrived in London il i " p aut a quarter-past four on the 24th March, at the Irongate ; unloaAed early the next morning ; sent word to the 'lf, and put the two boxes at the office at the wharf in the r, r _esence of Bristow and Felton, who took charge of than. After hoat.t Went to the office in John-street, where he arrived at past ten ; saw the prisoner Lewin Caspar there, t ad told him he had delivered the - boxes or the money and was :o the Custom-house to report the ship. He said he oald go and attend to it himself. The bill of lading was amongst the papers in the ship's box. He had signed tw o , one „, Which was placed in the ship's box. Cross-examined by Mr. PHILLIPS—Knew a person called Vlneis Allen. Arrived in the river at a quarter past four on l'lnday afternoon. Allen was on board his ship on the Sun -2; he remained on board about twenty minutes. Was in the when the prisoner came on board. Allen could not have CU on board more than half an hour, because the ship had not longer at her moorings. He came down in the cabin. ICle not k now that he could have come for business on a Sun h.;' Has not seen him lately. Cannot tell whether he saw 1114; Has day. Has teen him at the office, but not lately. He 1,,,n0t b een a t the o ffi ce some time. Does not know wheth er a,,.s ru n a w a y. Did not see him depart from the ship. Had liZ , ersation with him about the cargo. °'el oc Nmined—He parted with him about a quarter to five ak a on the Sunday. The boxes were all safe after he went of .r• k * Allen could not see the ship's papers, and had no means whaseertaess delivered them safely the wheer they next morning were on boar . d or not ; and - 1 T he told the C OU R T—Cannot charge. his memory whether or not. It told All en th er e was specie on board. All en was a clerk in Hartley's office. Henry Moss examined by Mr. BODKIN—IS of the Jewish Persuasion. Lived in 'New-street, Mile End-road. Was a Watchmaker, in the empl oyment of Mr. Hyams. H a d b een i n his service ten years. Has known the prisoner, Ellis Caspar, sixteen years. Was his foreman for a twelvemonth. Re trained with him until he (the witness) married. his acquaintance with him has continued down to the time of this tr ansaction. He w as p resent at w i tness ' s marriage ; has known Lewin Caspar the same time. Immediately after witness left his father he came to learn the business of witness. There was an interval, three or four years ago, during which he did not lt t him, hut he had seen him frequently during the last twelve konths. Understood he :vas in the employ of a steam navi gation company. The Caspars lived on Finsbury Pavement. Called there in last October on Ellis Caspar's invitation ; t e c rompanied him to the Synagogue onat occasion. Lewin aspar came in there. They all the n left the Synagogue together. Ellis Caspar said on parting he wanted to see wit ness, who promised to call. Saw him the following Sunday at ', f triess's house. Did no t ex p ec t him. H a d no t ca lleclon Caspar previo us l y , as h e h a d prom i se d. Elli s C as p ar sa id h e wante d w ' i t'less 4 'less to do him a favour. He did not explainhimself, but wished Wit nessf to meet him in the afternoon atWilliams's Coffeehouse. :,told witness they should meet another person, who would ;Hein the business ; went to William's, and met Ellis Caspar ; ent with him to the Old Bailey ; they called a cab and drove t ° Ch • h aring-cross to meet the other person went into a coffee °°se there ; Lewin Caspar joined there ; there were strangers 4 1 the room ; L e win Caspar said they must walk ou t ; all thre e he n I . Went into the Park ; it was quite dark ; Ellis Caspar told sl oshing to tell witness what he wanted, as he had told him ; •Lewin Caspar wanted witnesss to bring . a letter „loch Ellis Caspar had given him, to his office in John hi"t, Crutched-friars, and he would give witness a box to ;,se to Elli s Caspar, who would at some f uture titre make him nand s o me recompense. Witness asked what the Lox was to t l n tain ? Caspar said he did not know ; ,he said it was a mat tr, of 110 consequence to witness what it contained that a see n, porter might do it, only he did not want his father to be as the business was secret. Witness was to have the 'ltal. next morning at a coffee-house in a street facing til e, Monument, where he was to meet Ellis Caspar. 'itness went there about ten o'clock, and met Ellis Caspar, urned;'no said he had not seen Lewin yet. He went away and re with Lewin in about a quarter of an hour. Ellis had a s t i ng in his hand. Lewin Caspar said the ship that was to fetter the box had not yet arrived, and told witness he had vetter call in the afternoon, as it was hourly expected. They th en separated. Received nothing from either of them. Re ''eived some mone y n ext day. Met them in the afternoo n at t he same place. Lewin said the ship had arrived, but eat the box was at the bottom; witness went next morning, tkl saw them both again ; Lewin told witness the box was too " e ary to take away, and desired his father to give him half a s averei ni which he did; Lewin asked witness, if he should w ant witness at any time, where he should find him ; Ellis was I.eWin l : r esent ; witness told him he was always at his empo ; said he did not wish it to be known that ) an y eo rresvondence was carried on between them, hut direct to Wi tness, by the twopenny-post, and would not sign his own '' a ine. Met them both afterwards several times, always in n 4 n , equence of notes. On one occasion Lewin asked him what 'ki nd of a hand he wrote. This was before Christmas. Wit ness wrote his name and address on a piece of paper, a-id pri soner, Lewis Caspar, said that would do, and he proposed Witness should write for him, two letters, and said he would give witness the forms to copy, and also another letter of which It was to imitate the handwriting as near as he could. was a letter that was to be sent to a gentleman in the bank of England, the hand writing of which, witness was (13 imitate. The letter produced is the letter. Witness subse gnently•received the forms which he copied, and returned them With th e copies to Lewin Caspar; the first witness wrote were l 'r.lected consequence of having left them with two narrow 'paces. Witness wrote two others ; those now produced are ; t ne forms the letter now produced of which th e a dd ress 4 tore off, is in witness 's writing it was addressed to Lewin Caspar, and b e gave this to him him se lf, an d a ddressed the letter by Lewin Caspar's desire. This took place be fore t Christmas—(The witness s truck o ut the words which had been introduced since the forms were written and the letter s were put in.) Never saw Ellis Caspar from that time to th e 24th of March. Saw Lewin Caspar twice. Met the t wo Cespars on the 9 4th of March in Turner-street, Corn kercial-read, going towards witness's house, between one and t wo in the day. Did not expect them. They said they were g 4 itg to witness's, and Lewin Caspar said h • should want witness ne xt morning ; witness said he did not think he should be able to attend to it. Ellis said if witness had any business to do, it Would be a good excuse for his absence, as it would not occupy half an hour. Witness agreed to meet Ellis in Mark-lane, who was to give him a let ter to go to Lewi n ; ent accordin g ly, an d In-t the Caspars in Fenchurch-street at a little after ten. Lewin left his father, and then Ellis came up and spoke to witness, and said he wanted to give witness something, but could not do it in the street. They went into a coffee-house, and Ellis Caspar gave him a letter and a blue bag. The I letter was folded. He delivered the letter to Lewin Cas tar ; the letter produced is the one he carried. iVit ness l e f t I , ho me i n N ew stree t, a little after eight that mo:ning, he Was dressed in his best clothes ; he was directed by Ellis Caspar, to take it to Lewin, at his office, and Lewin would give him s omething which he was to put in his bag and take away, and 'bring its a cab to Wood-street, Cheapside, where he would meet Ellis Caspar. e ot a cab and went to Lewin's office, at Messrs. HartleyH' g s, in John-str h eet ; e went there alone ; a lad came to the cab' and witness asked for Mr. Hartley, as he had been desired by Ellis Caspar. The lad went in and sent out Lewin Caspar. Witness gave him the lette r , and Lewin wen t i n t o th e office. He came out with another letter as well as the one witness had gave him in his hand. He compared the two and said--there was a mistake, and that witness must go into his office and he would correct it. Re went into the inner office, where there was nobody except Young Caspar himself. There were clerks in the outer , °face through which they passed. Lewin, when he got in corrected the mistake, and wrote an order at the foot of the letter—" Mr. Bristow, please deliver the above; Messrs. Carne have advised me about it. Signed L. Caspar." At that time the letter was in the same state it is now ; having Bona this he gave witness the letter back, and told witness he was to go to the wharf and inquire for Mr. Bristow, Dublin Steam Wh trf, Iron-gate, whose address he wrote down. He (Caspar) would be there as soon as he would, and that he would ;save to write an acknowledgment, to which witness was to sign, in a manner which Lewin mentionid to him, but which he has now forgotten. Witness went first to Bread street, Cheapside, to deliver some goods of his master's, and then went onto the wharf. He left his cab at the corner of King William-street, and then got a fresh cab in Cheapside, and went in that to the wharf, and thinks he inquired for Mr. Hartley. L. Caspar was not there. He saw Mr. Bristow, who came to him in the cab, he gave Mr. Bristow the letter produced. Witness got out of the cab, went into the office, and received two boxes, which were put into the cab. Witness wrote a re ceipt for them, and signed the name Marsh, as he thinks ; be cause he had seen the name on some part of the letter, having forgotten the name he had been desired to sign. The receipt was signed " Received the above, J. H. Dunn, per Marsh- Esq." Witness put one of the boxes into the bag, which was not large enough to contain both. He then drove to Wood, street, Cheapside. The boxes were put in by the porter. He gave the porter a shilling. Witness i'rove to the Cross Keys, and the porters came about him, took the boxes out of the cab, and put them into the office. Ellis Caspar was not there. lie called another cab, and got into it; the boxes were put in also, and he drove to the London Hospital, Whitechapel-road, which is at the corner of the street where witness lives. He took one of the boxes home—the one in the bag—and put it in a closet in the hed-room. He then came out to fetch the other, and as he was going up the street towards the cab, he met Ellis Caspar, who asked him what he had done with the boxes. Witness told him, and asked him to fetch the other from the cab. He said he would not, and that witne s had done wrong in bringing the cab so near his own house. He desired him to detain the cab for an hour, and drive away to some other place, and take the box out, and bring it to his own house, but not to take it out so near. Witness had not suffi cient money to pay the cab, but went home and got some silver. Went into the cab, and drove to the iron bridge in the Commercial-road, and then discharged the cab. He came back by an omnibus, bringing the hoe with him. He got down at the corner of Turner -street, some little distance from his house. 11c carried the box borne, and placed it with the first. He then went out, and returned about eight o'clock. He had tea, and went to the Earl St. Vincent public-house. He had a female servant, named Jane Bradley, living with him at the time. She fetched him from the public-house, and on going home he found Ellis Casper there in the front part of the house. He asked what had been done with the boxes, and witness to'd him that they were in his bed-room. He seemed much alarmed, and witness asked him the reason ? He sold witness the boxes contained gold; and that they must be got out 'of his place. lie seemed mush alarmed. He desired witness to tell his wife to send away the servant. Witness said he had assurances that there was no harm coming to him in consequence of what he had done. lie replied that the officers were on the look out, and that they had information which he was fearful would lead to witness being discovered. The servant was sent away. Caspar desired witness to leave that house by all means. Witness said he could not, as he had not given his landlord notice, and there were two quarters' rent due that day. Caspar said witness must sacrifice everything and go, anti if he would meet him next night, he would supply him with what money he wanted; this was about 11 o'clock in the evening. After the servant had left witness, his wife and Ellis Caspar were left in the house. Witness allowed Ellis Caspar where the boxes were in his bed room, each brought one down stairs into the back parlour ; they were made of darkish deal; there was a seal on all four sides ; the lid of one was broken open by Ellis Caspar with a chisel in order, as he said, to divide the contents to make it more convenient to carry away ; the box was simply nailed together like a packing box. On opening the box there was a quantity of hay, underneath whi c h was a tin box a good deal smaller the outside cover. Ellis. Caspar raid that as it was so small there was n 9 occasion to divide it, he would take it as it was. The other box was opened in the same way, and the outside. cases were both thrown on the fire by Ellis Caspar, and burned. Caspar did not stay until they were consumed, he took away the hay in his handkerchief—he left the tin boxes in the room and witness took them up stairs ; whilst these things were burning witness was seized with spasms, to which he is subject, this was about day-break, and after that he went up stairs to bed, and in the morning, while his wife was out he opened one of the tin boxes, and found it contained va rious lumps of apparently different colours, round lumps of ore, of various sizes, some as large as a moderate sized orange and others smaller. He replaced them in the box, and wrapped each box in brown paper, and put each in a separate trunk and corded one of them and locked the other. He believes one of the trunks belonged to his daughter. He removed the next day (Tuesday) to Mansell-street. The plate was taken off his door before day-light at the suggestion of Ellis Casper. Ellis Caspar left at 1 or 2 o'clock in the morning. The boxes were sent in the trunks to the lodgings in Mansell-street. Met Ellis Caspar at the Horse Guards, on Thursday evening, by appointment; told what had been done with the boxes, who said they must be got out of witness's place. Caspar refused to come and take them, as Lewin was already suspected, and he expected his house to be searched. He desired witness to tell his sister Sarah Levy to get a lodging and represent herself as a nurse ; she was to get a trunk, and witness was to put the gold dust into the trunk, and not to tell her what the boxes contained, and witness was to write a direction, to be fastened to the trunk to be sent to Bath, to be left until called for, when Caspar would go down and fetch them. Witness was to meet him on Thursday on the Southwark-bridge, when Caspar was to give him what money he required ; he then gave him only one sovereign. On his return to his lodgings witness took the boxes out of the trunks, and put them into a side dress ing-room. On that afternoon he received a letter from Ellis Cas par, in consequence of which he went to the Horse Guards at nine o'clock, and saw Ellis Caspar, who asked if he had got away the gold dust? He told him no. Caspar said witness must have some.design, or he would not have kept it so long. Witness said he did not know what to do with, and refused to implicate his sister, as he had already gone too far in it. He said witness must venture his life to take it away himself, and that witness must get out of_ the way. He would take care of his family, and was to meet him the next day He told witness there was WO/. reward offered for him, and that he was very nearly described. He gave witt.ess W. lie called on witness next morning in Marshall-street. There were other persons living in the house. Witness went out and met him on the landing. He whispered to witness, and asked if he had got it away. Witness told him " Yes." He told him so, because he was afraid of his coining to his place. Caspar told him that the last cab he had been in the man had given a boy something to follow him home; he gave witness a piece of paper and went down stairs, and said, very loud, " I will have my watches done or not." The paper produced is the paper—(the paper was then read, desiring to see his wife instead of himself, and telling him not to stop in his place, but to go to his mother-in-law, and shape any good excuse, as this day they were determined to make a finish) ; he told witness, when he handed him the paper, that his wife was to see him instead of himself. Witness went out almost directly, and met his sister coming to his apartments; told her about the parcels ; she lived in Petticoat-lane. He then went to Coventry-court to Davis's ; Davis is his father in-law—married his wife's mother; went there to be con cealed. 'fold him what he had done. Davis had a house in Oxendon-street, to which he took witness, and placed him in an uoperroom,whei e he remained from the Thursday to the Tuesday. The gold dust was brought to him there the next day, or the day after he arrived, by Davis ; it was in paper, having been taken out of the boxes; it was placed in a cupboard at the head of the stairs, next to the room where witness was. Witness locked the cupboard and put the key in his pocket. The Monday following was Easter Monday, and 'Davis and Alice Abrahams, the prisoner, came to him. Davis told him that his (witness's) house had been searched, and the gold must be got away, as he expected his house would be searched. They each took a parcel of the gold dust away. The pieces of paper in which the metal was wrapped, were removed and burned by witness before they came. They came a second time, and each took some on both occasions. He slept that night at the same place, the next morning Davis came to him very early and in consequence of what passed, witness went to Brentford and came back to London that night, and met Davis at Hyde Park-corner by appointment. They went to Lincoln's-inn-fields, and left witness; he returned with Mrs. Abrahams, the priEoner, in a quarter of an hour. Witness told Mrs. Abrahams he understood the gold had been sold for 2,000/. and observed that he thought it was very little. She said she (lid not understand it, that she bad given all that had been given for it, and had not been paid anything, and that she had not had the means of procuring the money for witness. He lodged that night in a court in Drury lane. Davis had procured him that lodging. He came to wit ness the following morning, and he met him again at night. He went and returned with Mrs. Abrahams. Witness waited for them in a coffee-shop in the neighbourhood of the Strand, and they all then went to Peckham in a coach. He there found a lodging prepared for him, where lie remained a fortnight, and where he was frequently visited by Mrs. Abra hams and Davis. While at Peckham he went to a Mr. Robinson's heuse with Davis. Had not formerly known Mr. Robinson. Found Mrs. Abrahams there. Nothing was given to him on that occasion. Went there twice ; Mrs. Abrahams was there on both occasions. Remembers Sun day, the 14th of April. Went with Davis to Mr. Robinson's tor the second time ; had on two occasions given information on that subject ; up to that time had had no bank notes in his possession. Nobody was with Davis and he in the coach on that Sunday. He received fifteen notes from Mr. Davis. M, s. Abrahams was not present ; had not received any thing before except a sovereign from Davis, which he used to pay his lodg ings. When he got to Robinson he produced the notes; deli vered them to Robinson ; they were given him by Davis on his way ; then he gave to Robinson all he had received from Davis. He received them back from Robinson on the following Wed nesday, in the passage of the New Inn, opposite this place. Mrs. Abrahams was present when witness gave the notes to Robin son. There was on that occasion an I 0 U with the notes. Rowe, the officer, produced the 15 notes and the I 0 U, and stated them to be the same that witness had handed to him. The I 0 U was read—it was, ‘. I 0 U I,Bo7l.—signed H. H. S " Had seen Lewin Casper twice between November and March, once at a coffee- shop in Lombard-street ; they went to another in Great Tower -street ; this was about three weeks before the transaction ; he met him by appointment, by letter ; he always returned Lewin Casper the letters he re ceived from him. Caspar said he thought he should have wanted him at Christmas. Lew'n Caspar was known by the person 'she kept the shop. Caspar seemed annoyed, and said he would not have gone there if ho had thought he should have been known. Witness lost a handkerchief on that occasion, and mentioned the circumstance to Lewin Caspar. The one now produced is the one he so lost. Lewin Caspar showed him a letter on Sunday, 24th March, purporting to come from Dublin. The letter produced is the one. It was shown witness at his house. Lewin Caspar asked him for such papers as he had of his. Wit. ness gave him, amongst others, the letter that has been pro duced to-day. Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant Bost rA s, on behalf of the prisoner Moses—Davis told witness that he (Davis) had de stroyed the boxes. Mrs Abrahams was present when he said so on one occasion. Was mistaken when he said he had never said so in Mrs. Abrahams' presence. He told witness that he had been to Mrs. Levi's and brought away the gold from there. Dees not know whether Robinson was present or nor. Can not state the exact part of the conversation that ook place between himself and Mrs. Abrahams in Robinson's presence. Thinks the conversation took place at Robinson's. He was token there by Davis. He had written an account of the transaction to be sent to Mr. Robinson, and went there to be more particular. There was some negociation going on at that time. It was stated in Robinson's presence that Davis had destroyed the boxes. Witness went to Hertford on the morning of Tuesday the 2d of April. All the gold had been taken away from his house the night previously. Saw Davis that morn ing, and again in the evening. By Mr. Puff.f.irs for the Caspars—His wife, his sister, and himself have been taken up on this business. Davis, his wife's father-in-law, has not been taken up, bt cause he has gone away. His father-in-law, whose name was Cohen, died in London : he believed he had been a traveller. He had not been to Botany Bay. Never heard he was tried for any thing. Left the Caspars because lie could not earn a sufficiency tu main tain his family. The name of Mrs. Davis's first husband was Lazarus. Never heard he had been sent to Botany Bay. Hardly knows how Davis gets his living. Thinks the house he hid himself in was a house of ill-farne. The first house he went to was one of the same kind. Mr. Ellis Caspar sug gested he should go there. Believes Davis had various m can of getting his living. Has no doubt ice gets a portion of hi s living by keeping brothels. Caspar gave him a note to take THE SUN. LONDON, TUUSDAY, JUNE 25 H• 39 there. He quitted one house to go to the other, because he was told he would be more safe there. Dot's not know that ever he saw ]key Solomons in his life; never spoke to him to his knowledge ; never was employed by him ; never defaced any marks upon watches for him. It was only until nearly his last interview with Caspar that he suspected any guilt in this business. Hcmembers when Ikey Solomons fled. No officer ever searched his house for Ikev Solomons to his knowledge, nor any house where he lived. Lived in a place called Bevis Marks, No. 18. His house there was not searched for Solomons, nor for any thing he had stolen. There had a person called there, two gentlemen together, who came, and said they wished to look into his shop for stolen property. Witness showed them over the shop, and they said they were perfectly satiified. Was never told that this was for pro perty stolen by Solomons. Did not hand any property out of the window. Neither Mrs. Levi nor Mrs. Sewell lived with hiM. Mrs. Aldosdino lived with shop only was searched. The persons who searched said they had wrong information. Witness told Mr. Fishwick where he lived. That he was not a Hebrew. In order to convince Fishwick of this, he might have eaten pork, He does not know that he eat at his table with hm. He did vat forbidden meat there. Every meat he eat there was forbidden. It made no difference to him while he was there. He had some suspicion when he was asked to imitate another man's hand , writing, but his suspicions were lulled by Lewin tell ing him the person was to sign the paper himself. Can not give any honest reason for imitating another man's writing. Knew it was wrong. When Caspar said he was not to be seen at his house, he suspected something wrong, but never linew that robbery was contemplated. Inquired what his intention was, and Caspar told him it was to deceive the London clerks only. He told him it was to oblige his friend, and therefore he did it. Mr. Plimsirs—Would you have stolen the gold dust if you thought it was wrong—that's a puzzle? I fetched it away to oblige Caspar.—lf be had known it had been gold dust he had been stealing he would not have done it. Did not know it was a forgery he was committing. He was induced to do it by Caspar. Would not steal at the sugges tion of Mr. Caspar. Cannot give an honest reason for it. His dishonest one was that Caspar promised to pay him for it. The forgery did succeed, and he sot no money, at which he was not pleased. He was to depend' on the Caspars for the reward. He was quite surprised to find he had been guilty of stealing. He had no intention of robbery. Thought there was secresy, but did not know there was crime. Gave more than one ac count of tsese transactions to the prosecutors. They were not all alike. Toll them his first statement was a true one. It was just as false as his telling lishwiek he was not a Jew. He gave them that statement to deceive them. He did it at the nstigation of Mrs. Abrahams and Davis to screen them as well as himself. He gave Mr. De Mole a false statement. Mr. De Mole is one of the solicitors for the prosecution. He made it to mislead him and baffle the prosecution. He would not have done t'iis if he had not been implicated in it. All the...- false statements were made at the instigation of Davis and Mrs. Abrahams. The third statement was true, aid was made to save himself only. He thought Mrs. Abrahams and Davis were his friends, but found they haddeceived hies. He assured Mr. De Mole that what he told hini was the truth, and the prosecutors that the first statement was the truth. The second statement differed from the first, and both were false. The account he has g iven to-day differs from the other two. He does not give the same assurance to the Court to-day for the statement made here, because when called on to swear to /his former statements he refused to do so. The first statement was dictated by Davis and sent to Robinson. Never heard of Mrs. Abrahams intending to turn evidence when he made his statement. The true statement was sent from the prison about a month before his final commitment. He was present a va rious examinations. Mrs. Abrahams was present at one of them, and it was after that that he sent in his written statement for the sale purpese of saving himself. He has acted under the advice and recommendation of a solicitor, who told him to tell the truth, and let every one take care of himself. Would not swear whether or not Mrs. Abrahams was sworn, but remembers her being examined as a witness. Witness was not sworn until the last examination. It was before Mrs. Abrahams was examined that the solicitor spoke to him as above. Does not consider himself, except so far as he shall be borne out, entitled to credit. Everything tends to cast suspicion on him. He has a great deal worse opi nion of himself than many may imagine. Cross-examined by Mr. ADOLPHUS for Mrs. Abrahams— He is 4'2 years of age, and has lived most of his life in London. He was working for 111 r. Ilyams at the time he committed this forgery. lie wrote two letters which were rejected, and two others which Lewin Caspar kept. Does not know where Davis is. Saw Davis in the Magistrate's parlour, after he had made his false statement. Davis was let go, and has since run away. Did not know he had committed a robbery until the Tuesday. He thought Lewin had authority to do what he had done. He did not give information on the Monday night after his conver ation with Ellis, because he was afraid he had gone too far. It did not occur to him at the time. He never knew Henry Solomon before, never heard the name of Dean before. Thinks Mrs. Abrahams said at Robinson's that Moss could come forward and show by documents who the receiver was. Does not know whether he said "Mrs. Abrahams has brought me to you ; I hope I can rely upan her as well as you ;" here are the notes and I 0 U, given to me by Solomons. He may have said some thing :o that effect, except about the I 0 U. He is sure he never said anything about that, because he had never seen it until he gave Robinson the notes, and said he bad received them from Solomon, to whom he had sold the gold-dust. He went then with an understanding that he was to be a witness for the Crown. Robinson never Said that he could not believe wit ness, he had told him so many lies. Re-examined by Mr. CLARKSON—The statement he made to Robinson was not true, and he had been induced by Davis and Mrs. Abrahams to make it to screen them. Had never been in Solomons' house in his life, and it was from Davis he learnt that he hail had anything to do with it. That was the occasion on which it was determined that Mrs. Abrahams was to come forward and support his statement. It was Previously understood between Davis and witness, and Mrs. Abrahams, that she was to make the statement she made to Robinson, re lative to witness. That was all false. Lewin Caspar was not more than thirteen or fourteen when witne s lived with his father. He had left Caspar's employ for fifteen years, and had not written anything for either of them for twelve years. There was no negotiation with him until he volunteered to make a. statement, and forwarded it to the prosecutor. He was induced to this by Davis and -Mr. Abrahams. As far as the prosecutor was concerned his statement was perfectly volun tary. He made the statement to-day because he saw the ne cessity of tellin g the truth ; he banded his last statem e nt t o hi), attorney, Mr. Buckland. The letter which Lewin Caspar showed him about consignments to the amount of 90,000/. resembles the one now shown him. He was never in prison in his life. He has worked for Hyams for ten years. He had gone to Fishwick's for the purpose of concealment. He had done nothing to disguise his person. • By the Cou ItTlie had worked for Caspar after he left his employ, up to within the last twelvemonths. During that time he never sent him bills or letters of excuse. The hour of six o'clock having come the Court adjourned until to-morrow morning, the Jury having been previously given in charge. The prisoners seemed very attentive to the evidence, the younger Caspar taking notes the whole time. Mrs. Abrahams was accommodated with a chair. The trial is expected to last two or three days. The London Correspondent of the Dublin Evening Poet, a well informed paper, states that there will be no dissolution of Parliament during the present year at least, although there has lately been 'some rumour of a dissolution in the approaching autumn. The cavalry officers of Dublin are, it is said, getting up a grand tournament at Rathfarnham Castle, for the benefit of the Mendicity. _ _ _ On Friday last, a boy, three years old, playing on the tramroad at Little Milford, near Haverfordwest, was accidentally ran over by two waggons laden with culm, and the body nehrly severed in two.—Cambrian. STATE of THE WORKING CLASSES.—We observe that the Commissioners have made two more sales during the week of 20,0001. each, on account of the Saving Banks. We are happy, however, to announce that in Manchester the notices of withdrawal have subsided, in number and amount, to the average of good times, while there is a steady progress in the number of depositors and amount of deposits. The demands on the poor rate have also not increased, as might have been expected under the very severe depression of trade, and these facts may be considered as conclusive evidence that the condition of the industrious classes generally is not one of unusual privation. In fact, the hand-loom weavers, and some other classes, are in more general employment, and on better terms, than they have been for years, and the pressure seems to be merely confined to the spinners and printers. In these de partments many are out of employ, and considerable dis tress prevails —Manchester Chronicle. TETE MURDER AT SUNDERLAND.—The coro ner's jury who returned a verdict of wilful murder against the mate Ehlcrt did not implicate the boy Mueller; but the magistrates; of Sunderland have, after a long investi gation, committed him also to take his trial on the capital charge, some suspicious circumstances against him having since transpired. DISTRESSING CASE.—On Friday last an in quest was held More J. \V. Cowley, Esq., coroner for the northern division of Bucks, at. Olney, on view of the body of Mr. F. tladdon, jun., a schoolmaster of that place, aged thirty-five. It appeared from the evidence, that in the afternoon of the previous Wednesday he accompanied his pupils to the river, in order that they might bathe. During the time that the boys were in the water, deceased (who remained on the bank with his clothes on) observed a boy, aged ten, about forty yards further up the river, getting out of his depth, and evidently struggling for his life. He immediately hastened to the spot, and jumped in, but not being able to swim sank and rose no more. One of his pupils, named William Fosket, only twelve years of age, reached the spot just in time to see his master sink; he instantly rushed into the water, and. with much difficulty and exertion, brought out the little boy in an almost lifeless state. The pit was supposed to be at least ten feet deep, and had Fosket been able to dive as well as swim, be thought he could have saved his master also. Before assistance could be obtained half an hour had elapsed, and every possible means were used to restore life, although ineffectually. Verdict " Acciden tally drowned." THE LADY FLORA HAsTINGs.—It affords us great gratification to state that Lady Flora Hastings was a little better yesterday. Renwick, of Winlaton, and Molyneux, th e black man, fought a pitched battle near Kendal, on Wed.. nesday ; and after they had beaten each other most brutally for an hour and a quarter, in the presence of several con.. genial fellows, the black was declared to be the best man of the two. SOCIETY OF ARTs.—The situation of Secre tary to this long-established and highly useful Society has become vacant through the resignation of Mr. Aikin, who fur many years t.bly and zealously performed its duties. There are several candidates in the field, but the general opinion seems to be that the choice of the members (with whom•the election rests) will f.:11 upon Mr. William Bad deley, a gentleman whose scientific acquirements emi nently qualify hint for the important and responsible office. Mr. i3addeley is in the prime of life, and has had much practical experience in business. WILL OF THE LATE BISHOP OF PETERBO ttoun►t.--The will and codicil of the late Bishop of Peter borough were on Saturday last proved in the Prerogative Court of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Doctors' Com mons, by Marian Erni) , Charlotte Marsh, his widow and sole executrix, to whom the testator has bequeathed the whole of his property. The personal estate is sworn under 25 000/., but the freehold property is very large. The will which is in the handwriting of the deceased, is dated in 1816. and the codicil in 1818 —Condit-it* Chronicle. ENGLISH LAW !—A few clays ago a person named Callingham was brought up to the Insolvent Deb tors' Court, in order to be discharged from prison. Cal lingham had brought an action for an assault, got Is. damages, and had been put into prison for the costs ! IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ROUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 24. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at Five o'Clock. A message from the Commons brought up a variety of Bills. The Duke cf RUTL AND presented a petition from Northampton, prayil for a penny postage. Lord MELBOURNE presented three petitions against any alteration in the Beer-laws. Lord BROUGHAM postponed the second reading of (as we understood) the Education Bill frcan Monday till to-morrow week. Lord GL ENG A L presented a petition in favour of a uniform rate of penny postage. Also a petition from the land owners of the county of Tipperary against any alteration in the Corn-laws ; and a petition from 530 inhabitants of the city of Dublin complaining that the Irish Government had removed a vast number of persons front the Commission of the Peace and replaced them by gentlemen not of sufficient respectability. The Marquis of WESTME ATII complained that her Majesty's Government hap I,ot produced the whole of the papers relating to the transactions at Mullingar for the _production of which he had some some time ago moved. There were particu larly three or four important letters, which he con sidered ought to have been produced. If they were not forthcoming, it became the Noble Marquis opposite to ac count for their non-production. Without them it was im possible for him (the Noble Marquis) to' bring the whole of the circumstances properly and fully before the Com mittee sitting on the state of crime in Ireland. He drew the attention of the House to the first part of the Report of the Committee which had been printed.—( Haar, hear.) He did not think that the evidence had been at all fairly given before that Committee. Important parts of evidence had been kept back, and parts that were not so important were given. He regretted to take up so much of the time of the House upon what might appear to many to be only a local affair, but he could assure their Lordships it was of great importance to Ireland how the business before this Committee was con ducted ; and for himself he could say that for the part he had taken as Lord Lieutenant of the county of Westmeath he had been greatly maligned. The Noble Marquis went at considerable length into a detail of all the circumstances afficting many of the transactions that had taken place in his county for several years past, and sat down by asking if the Noble Marquis opposite would have any objection to the appointutent of : a Corsaa;trce; tce4tiqu'W - into the nature of the papers that b,,d been omitted -w be laid on the table. The Marquis of NORM ANB Y was by no means pre pared nor disposed to follow the course the Noble Marquis had taken. He would not consent to the appointment of the COmmittee suggested, because he remained of the same opinion now that he was of before, that two of the letters referred to by the Noble Marquis as letters which had not been produced, had no relevancy to the matters in question ; and that as to the third, the original had been lost, but the substance of it had been set out. The Noble Marquis was in the habit, more than anv other Noble Lord in the House, of referring to absent individuals, and cast ing imputations upon them, which was anything but proper or consistent with their fair debate in their Lordships' House. He bad impeached the conduct of Mr. Drummond, Mr. Shiel, Mr. Fitzsimon, and Mr. Brooke, although it had been distinctly shown that every accusation against those gentlemen had been rebutted. The Marquis of WE STM EA TH rose amidst cries of " Order of the Day ! Order of the Day !" He thought he was entitled to the liberty of making sa me observa tions in reply, and when the Noble Marquis accused him of being loose in his statements he ought to be guarded in his own. He would refer to statements made by the Noble Marquis in the course of the last Session.—( Cries of " Order of the Day !") Lord HOLLAND rose to order. It was impossible that the Noble Marquis could be allowed on this occasion to travel into such charges as he was about to enter upon ; and, after the time that bad already been allowed to the Noble Marquis to make his statement, he must submit that the House would enforce its rules of order. The Marquis of WESTMEATH did not consider that under such circumstances he could even vindicate himself, but he would express a hope that the Noble Marquis opposite would be himself more careful in his statements in future. and he had been informed by solicitors of great respecta bility, that in country places usurious dealings under this law had taken place, to an extent that was beyond con ception. If it had not been for the particular pressure that prevailed at present, he should have moved that the 13111 be referred to a Committee up stairs, where, if he had beer, rightly informed, he should hate been able to produce evidence of its injurious workings that would have su r . prised their Lordships. This circumstance induced him to think that this measure ought only to be continued as a temporary Bill. The LORD CHANCELLOR said the object of his Noble and Learned Friend's amendment was unattainable, for it would practically destroy the credit now obtained by bills. It would be, in fact, virtually inoperative ; for though a party could not himself renew the bill the holder might take it up to any one else at 8 or 10 per cent.--(Hear.) According to the law as it stands, parties can raise money at higher rates of interest than 5 per cent. by discounting on bills. This must be so, for people would borrow and lend, and interposing legal difficulties only increased the risk, and thereby the expense to the party borrowing. The Duke of WELLINGTON said he wished to put parties on their guard, in passing measures of this descrip tion, against supposing that extraordinary high rates of profit could habitually be made in this cuuntry from lending money; and with thi s v i ew h e s h ou ld recommen d t h at t h e BM be only in force two or three years—the period during which such accommodations would, by the present state of trade, be required.—( Hear.) Lord WYNFORD withdrew his amendment. The Marquis of L A NSD 7 WNE thought it best to adopt a permanent course of legislation, instead of resorting to temporary expedients.—( Hear, hear.) If lenders of money were not by law allowed to make such terms as this Bill authorised, they would only increase the extortions which would be secretly and unlawfully attempted. A clause. on the suggestion of the D u k e o f WE L- L INGTONJ ena c ti ng that the Bill should continue in operation till 1842, was then proposed. Their Lordships divided, and there appeared_ Contents Non Contents Alijority —l7 The 811 then went through Committee. The Winkrupts 8.11 pissed through Committee, as. did also the Common Pleas Practice Bill. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF CO.II.IIONS,auNE 24. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly b_•fore four o'clock. The Harrow School Estate Bill was read a third time and passed. Blunt's Estate Bill was read a t'iird time and passed. On the motion of Mr. W. PATTEN, the Warrington Small Debts Bill was ordered to be printed. The lion. Member gave notice that he should to•morrow call the at tention of the House to that Bill. SHIP PROPELLER COMPANY. Mr. CA YLEY moved the second reading of the Ship Propeller Company's Mr. BROTII gIZTON opposed the second reading of the Bill, considering it to be a measure that was extremely injurious to a most worthy individual. The short facts of the case were these, about ten years ago letters patent were obtained by a gentleman, named Bennet Woodcroft, for an invention of which the object of the present Bill was to deprive him. It was important, there fore, that the Housa should not lend its sanction to a Company having such an object. The invention, for which Mr. Smith had obtained a patent, was precisely the same as that which had been discovered by Mr. Woodcroft, and it would therefore be impossible to support the validity of the former patent. Under such circumstances, looking upon the Bill as a means for upholding an invalid patent he should move that it be read a second time that day three months. Mr. CA YLE Y had no connection whatever with the Company, and scarcely knew if the Bill had beer. placed in his hands. The House had probably already heard of the application of the Archimedian screw to steam vessels, which he understood had been investigated by many naval men, and the Board of Admiralty, who bad all expressed themselves favourably of the in vention. It did not interfere in any way with M. Woodcroft's patent, and even if it did, the llothe was no tribunal to try the merits of the two inventions. Parties had subscribed a large sum for the purpose of obtaining the present Bill and establishing a Company, and if there was any undue interference with Mr. Woodcroft's patent he had his remedy in another Court —( Hear, bear. ) Sir C. B R ELL supported the Bill. He believed the invention would be a great improvement in the navigation of the river, as by it all swell was done away with, and the consequent danger to small craft, and loss of life, avoided. He did not profess to know much about the invention, but from what he had heard of it he had no doubt it would be found to be a decided improvement upon the present system. Mr. BROTHERTON said he would be prepared to prove (if the House allowed him) that the present plan was exactly similar to that of Mr. Woodcroft. Mr. BE NETT contended that the House had nothing to do with the merits of rival patens. He understood that there were two patents existing for the application of the Archimedian scr2vv to steam-vessels. The present Com pany had purchased the other, and rejected Mr. Wood croft's patent, and hence the opposition of that gentleman to the present Bill. Captain A'CO URT eulogized the invention of Mr. Smith, and supported the Bill. The amendment was then withdrawn, and the Bill read a second time, and ordered to be committed. Sir R. BATE SON presented petitions from Dunmore, Londonderry, against the grant to the College of May nooth, and against the Government plan of education, and from the King's County, in favour of the Better Ob servance of the Lord's Day, and against Sunday travelling. Petitions against. the Government scheme of education oVreril 4 Praseared by ' , SW Q. 13. Vera, from places in the counties of Surrey and . : Sussex; by Lord Norreys, :from Oxfordshire ; by Ciiptain:Alsager, from Surrey; by Sir C. Burrell, from Sussex; bj Mr. 0. Gore, from Denbigh ; by Mr. Bailey, from Worcester; by Mr. Christopher, from Lincolnshire ; by Mr. R. Palmer, from Reading; by Mr. Wodehousc, from Norfolk ; by Sir G. Clarke, from Northamptonshire ; and by Mr. Miles, from Somersetsbire. Mr. PHILLIPS presented a petition from Lianidloes, in favour of the plan. Mr. THORNHILL presented a petition from Mr. Flower, of Stratford-on-Avon, against any alteration in the Beer Act. The LORD-ADVOCATE presented petitions from Aberdeenshire against Church Endowments in Scotland. Mr. MILNES presented a petition from the Goole Union, praying for an alteration in the bastardy clause of the Poor-law Amendment Act. The O'C 0N OR DON presented several petitions from the county Roscommon in favour of Corporate Re form in Ireland. Mr. D. W. HARVEY presented a petition from six officers of the Sheriffs of Middlesex, praying f4r compen sation for the.loss sustained by them in consequence of the passing of the Act for the Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Water. ford, complaining of the state of Prison Discipline in Ire. land. Also a petition from Dublin complaining of the mode of fictitious voting practised there. Mr. V. SMITH presented a petition from Northamp ton in favour of the Ministerial plan of education. Mr. M`K INN ON brought in the Turnpik.! Trusts Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be' read a second time to-morrow. On the motion of Sir J. GRAHAM, the Earl of Gal loway's Estate Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. Mr. GILL 0 N presented a petition from A uchtermuchty against any monopoly in printing the Scriptures in Scotland. Mr. /3LE wiTT, and Sr C. KNIGHTLY presented petitions against the Government plans of national edu cation. ELECTION PETITION. A petition was presented against the return of Mr. Alcock for the borouah of Ludlow. Mr. COLQUHOUN presented a petition against the grant to Maynonth College. Sir T. IRE EMANTLE presented petitions agarist the Government plans of education. Lord STANLEY presented a similar petition. Mr. D. \V. HARVEY gave notice of a motion for re turns relative to the unappropriated sums under a Conven tion (of which we could not catch the name). Lord J. RUSSELL presented papers. CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA). Mr. PAKINGTON begged to ask the Right lion. the Under Secretary for the Colonies, whetl-er the Clergy Re serves Bill had yet been received from Canada; and se condly, whether it was true that some difficulties had arisen wi'h regard to that Act? lie wished alse to know what was the nature of those difficulties—whether they were likely to be removed, and when it was intended to lay the Bill upon the table of the House ? Mr. L ABO UCH ERE said that additional information had been received from Upper Canada since the question had last been referred to in that llouse. The Act had been transmitted from Canada, but it was unaccompanied by the Address from the Governor, without which it was not a legal document. And he believed, even if the address was transmitted, there would exist some doubts as to the legality of the course which the Legislature of Canada had adopted. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.—EDUCATION _ _ VOTE. The Hruse then went into a Committee of Supply. Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not think it necessary to enter into the general question of education in proposing a Committee of Supply. The objections that had been stated or that might be stated on the general subject could not now very conveniently be discussed, after the long dis cussion which had taken place before the Speaker left the Chair. It might be contended that the whole education scheme ought to be left in the hands of the Church. It might be contended that the State ought not to grant any slime of money which should not be placed at the disposal of the Church, but those were not the questions now in dispute.—( Hear, bear.) The question now in dis. puce was, whether they would agree to grant 30,0001. for the purposes of public education, or whether they would altogether refuse that vote.—(Cries of " No, ' n o," from the Opposition benches.) He understood that to be the proposition, and that the ground of it was that instead of voting a sum for education to be placed at the disposal of the Board of the Treasury, it was a sum to be placed at the disposal of a Committee of the Privy Council, consisting of certain of her Majesty's servants. He did not see upon what argument that refusal was to be based. He could understand the argument that the State ought not to encourage any doctrine or any opi nion but that which was held by the Established Church, in connection with the State ; and that no such doctrine ought to be encouraged by vote of Parliament. But in respect of this mere question being the disposal of the grant to the Board of the Privy Council, or the Board of the Treasury—it did not appear to him that there was any _ ground upon which to refuse to make a ny grant for public education. Ile thought it would be far better for the argument if the change was the other way. In that case they would have ! had something to support them in their views, supposing there had been a Committee of the Privy Council appointed for the purpose of education, and the grant USURY LAWS BILL. The Marquis of L ANSDOWNE moved the Order of the Day that the whole House resolve itself into a Commit tee upon the Bill, to perpetuate the Bill that had been passed two years ago for ex( mpting certain bills of ex change and promissory notes from the operation of the laws relating to usury. In doing so, he should feel it ne cessary to explain the principle of the Bill, and, after the trial that had now b.scri had of the Operation of the Bill, he hoped their Lordships would consent to make the Bill now perpetual. He could first explain what had been the law —next, what had been the alterations of the law, and then shew the public necessity upon which those alte rations rested. Simetime ago, after one of the fullest inquiries that had ever taken place into the transactions of the Bank of England, among the various enactments that were introduced ito the Bill, on which the charter was founded, in consequence of recom mendations given by the Governors > and. Direc tors of that establishment, as well as , by other merchants in the City of London, it was thought conve nient to relieve the Bank of England from its obligations in its discounts of bills unpaid by the laws of usury. That was agreed to by both Houses of Parliament. A year or two after that relief had been extended to the Bank of England it seemed reasonable to the Government and to the commercial portion of society that that relief which had been afforded to t .. non L—..airie,plal sar toodowl. to-.• 11 netted with and engaged in commerce; and that they I. should have a facility afforded to them in times of need of lending and procuring money at a rate of interest higher than 5 per cent. upcn bills of Exchange at six or twelve months' date. When that Bill came before their Lord ships, though no one was prepared to oppose it, yet the Noble Duke opposite prevailed on the House to consider it as a kind of experimental Bill, and to confine its opera tions for two years. The Bill having so passed—the Bank of England haying the pcwer to lend money at a rate of in terest exceeding 5 per cent., and all per!ons engaged in com merce having now enjoyed that same privilege—it was most necessary now to make that law perpetual, which experience had proved on the one hand to be harmless, and on the other preeminently beneficial. If he could anticipate that any state of circumstances could arise in the city that would make that law otherwise than beneficial, he would willingly agree to limit the operation of the Bill again, but he could not satisfy himself but that that which rested on permanent principles must ever be beneficial to the country. He could not reconcile himself to this being any longer a mere temperary measure. He desired to see it embodied in the Legislation of the country, on which the commercial part of the community could rely, as the law of the land. The argument by which this Bill was supported did not rest on the Usury Laws, as bearing upon the landed interests of the country, but upon that demand for capital that existed in the commercial world at certain periods, and which made it of paramount importance that all the capital in the country should be able to be brought at any given time upon any particular pressure whi c h i t m i g h t b e an o bj ect of essential importance io meet. Occasions continually - arose from unexpected failures, from political events, and from circumstances over which parties could have no controul, which made it imperative upon them at any rate of interest to get assistance to carry them through the difficulties in which they were involved; and at those times there were persons in possession of capital, who, though obtaining legitimate interest upon it, might be induced to lend their assistance to those houses that were pressed, but which, under other circumstances, they would not be disposed to do. This Bill was there ' fore to enable capital to be disposed of in the most advan tageous mannar. All the Bill proposed to do was to remove a bar from a man lending money to another who was in immediate want of it, and upon such securities as he could net otherwise make available. When the Bill went into Committee he should move, on the introduction of an amendment to the effect of extending thu law to all deposits upon securities of any Exchequer bills, public annuities, transfers of South Sea sto c k, Indi a b o nds, and, in short, to all that were ca l led p ublic securities. In the course of the transactions wh ich had taken p la ce i t had been usual upon loans to accompany a , . promissory note with depo sits of securities in the shape of Exchequer India bonds, and so on, but it had been found that any promissory notes, accompanied by such securities were vitiated, and became subject to the laws of usury. His amendment should go to'cure that, and he trusted the House would not only allow the bill to go into Committee, but that it would agree to perpetuate it. The Duke of WELLINGTON did not rise to oppose the House resolving itself into a Committee. His object was not so much to object to the principle of the Bill as to perpetuating it. If it were to be made perpetual he thought it gave room for a vast number of frauds. Many instances of this kind had already come to his knowledge from his intercourse with persons who were unfortunately more liable to fraud than others—he meant officers in the army and their families—who had suffered considerably. Though he was anxious, therefore, that the Bill sho u ld pass in order to relieve the commerce of the coun try from any pressure at this particular moment, yet he could not agree tohold out to the public p e rmanently any opportunity to enable those who had fraudulent intentions to carry those inte nt i ons into execution, in respect to the unfortunate individ ua l s to , o t f laere whom hegnhaardi r t e h f o e s r o ree p l. rso H ns e f e r n o t in rea th tc is d d t .o h s e er l ip lo t u ioslet fore to no further, arid in that way to limit the dura tionmis- fortune while they provided for . that which was necessary, but b o y f Bill to the Ist of . January, 1842. The House resolved itself into a Committee. The Marquis of LANSDO \VNE proposed hi s amend ment to the effect already stated, which was agre e d to. Lord WYNFORD considered . that the Bill, as it now g tl ( i ) i i s ng l 3 equal to an entire repeal of the Usury Laws. stood, was He proposed an amendment to the effect, that should a bill' of ;exchange or promissory nate he renewed at the expiration of twelve months when due, the party granting the renewal s hould not be allowed to renew it at a greater rate of interest than 5 per cent. Lord A SHBURTO N said that this Bill introduced a principle of great i importance. It was a prin c i p l e ex tremely plausible n its appearance, but it requi re d t h ose who were i n f a vour of such theories to watch narrowly the operati ons o f ex periments on which they were founded. Except the city o f Hamburg, there was no city in Europe, or in th e N ew World of America, in which there was not a restriction by law upon the amount to be paid upon loans. He was satisfied that CO inconvenience wo u ld result to the public by g i v i ng t his Bill a trial for tw o or three years more. If th e p r inciple was right, and the theory was a sound one, th e re would he no necessity for any restrictions at all. He had made enquiry in the commerci a l world as to what had b een the effect of this Bill, and he believed the benefits arising from it had been very much overrated, though he did not mean to say that any material evil had I arisen from it. His opinion was that it had tended to im pede the power of the Bank of England, to lessen the circulation, and that it had increased the conf us i on an d distress that at present prevailed. i He bed likewi se ma d e inquiries respecting its working n another point of view, -^ . had been at their disposal, partly for the schools undo. the National Society, and partly for the British and Foreign, and supposing it had been intended to make a change in that grant, then there might have been something said against any such change. If the dis posal of this money was left to a Board of Treasury, that Board might be constituted part of .roman Catholics, and then the objection on the other side might apply. Then they might have had a tolerable argument, but as it was, they had not. The great objection to the plan was that it might be the means of giving education other wise than according to the Established Church. (Hear.) This difference had not now occurred for the first time ; it occurred at the formation of the Foreign School Society. There, with great industry, Joseph Lancaster formed a school, of which the chief object was to afford instruction to the people at a cheap rate, and he being one of the Society of Friends, and the others joined with him being Dissenters, it was laid down as a necessary condition that persons of every re ligious persuasion should be admitted to the school. and not o n l y P rotestant Di ssenters, b ut Roman Catholics, as well as members of the Established Church, were ad mitted to the benefit of their schools. And it was when this was known, that George the Third sent large contri butions to Joseph Lancaster, for the establishment of these schools. Members of the Royal family also contributed to them—the Queen, the Dukes of Kent, Cambridge, and Sussex. Fora while it seemed to be the general opinion that in founding schools it was desirable that all classes of Christians in this country should be enabled to send their children to be educated in the same school, and that there was no insuperable objection on the ground of difference of religious creed. But after a time those who differed from this opinion set up schools of their own, under the name of the National School Society—and he (Lord John Russell) had in his hand a volume of the Reports of the I3ritish and Fe. reign School Society, in which there was a correspon • dente which took place soon after the formation of that Society, relative to an attempted union of the two Institu tions. The Societies had both branches at Canterbury, and the British and Foreign School Society requested his Royal Highness the Duke of Kent to apply to his Grace the Archhishop of Canterbury, to permit the junction of the two. His Royal Highness accordingly made the application, adding that he was p.rsuaded the Committee of the British and Foreign School Society, would use their most careful exertions to promote the greet object of the institution. Ills Grace, in reply, said that the regulations of the Diocesan Schools, of which he was the .Patron, demanded the use of the Chtnea Catechism, and that therefore it was impossible that he should accede to the wish expressed by the " Royal Lancasterian Institution," that the use of that Cate chism shouNi not be required in the United School. From that time therefore, that effort having failed, the two Societies had gone on, each on its cwn principles, but each anxious for the general advancement of education. What the Committee of Privy Council had proposed to do was, to apply to those two Societies the greater part of the funds which shOuld be alltated to them, but they would not refuse to receive applications from schools in any populous or poor e lisrsicts where it might seem education was more peculiarly required —( Hear, hear.) Neither would they lay down as a principle that they would altogether exclude other schools which tended to the increase of religion and morality, merely because they did not belong to the British and Foreign School Society, or the National School Society. It was on these grounds, therefore, that he asked for this vote. He could say for himself, as he said the other night, that it appeared to him in the education of .the people of this kingdom generally, the principle which would be most likely to obtain the sup. port of the greatest number would be the principle stated so clearly by the British and Foreign School Society, that of teaching the Scriptures during the week, and allowing the children of each denomination to go to their respective places of worship on Sunday.—( Hear, hear.) The National Society could not subscribe to that principle.—( Hear, hear.) What he ( Lord John Rus sell) believed those who were opposed to him in tended was, that no school should be supported by the State, unless it was immediately connected with the Church—that was really the object.—( Loud Ministerial cheers, and expressions of dissent from Lord Stanley and Sir Robert:Peel.) He did not believe the Noble Lord, or the Right Hon. Gentleman had that object in view.— ( Conservative cheers ) The Right Hon. Baronet had given him a lecture, the other night, on the danger of open questions. Now he ( Lord Russell) did not mean to deny there might be those dangers which the Right Hon. Baronet, who had had experience on these subjects, had pointed out to him, tut still it might be a question whether, if there was any great difference among a party, it was not as well to avoid that difference (Cheers)—and to say we do hold different opinions, and not by means of getting a vote on some bye question— on some incidental matter, to conceal that very great difference of opinion that does prevail on the other &de. —( Cheers.) The Noble Lord the Member for Dar setshire. and the Hon. Member for Newark had stated their opinions in debate—and they would never be wanting in ability to sustain those opinions, or in fairness to avow them—and be did conceive that the opinions they stated were entirely at variance with the opinion which the Right Hon.,Gentleman and the Noble Lord had expressed. Therefore, although it might not be an open question on she other side, he conceived that the real difference be tween them was, whether they should put the whole education of the country into the hands of the Established Church, or admit that liberty of education which was sanctioned by his late Majesty, and by his Royal Highness the Duke of Kent, and which certainly the present Ministers were disposed to think was the only principles upon which education ought to be supported. The question was then put that 30,0001. be granted to her Majesty for public education in Great Britain for the year 1839. Lord. MAHON said he felt it his duty to meet the motion with a direct negative, and in doing so he thought it necessary, after what had fallen from the Noble Lord, to explain that his objections, and the objections of other Hon. Members on that side of the House, did not apply, in the slightest degree, to any grant for education intended and directed upon right principles. He could scarcely conceive that any person could have so utterly misunderstood, or industriously misrepresented the statements on his side the House.—( Opposition cheers.) Let the Noble Lord put them to the test. Would he con sent to move for the same vote as last year, and upon the same principle? Let him move even a much larger grant, conducted on the same principles, and he would then ascertain what the opinion of that side of the House was. He called upon the Noble Lord not to forget what he seemed to have done, and which was most expressly stated by his Noble Friend, the Member for North Lancashire, that his main oh. jection was not to the grant coming from the Treasury, but to the alteration in the principles of its application. He again repeated that if the Noble Lord would propose such a"vote he could venture to promise that there was not a Member on that side of the House who would not give it his full and cordial support. But if the Noble Lord would not take that course—if he told them that that vote of :30,0001 , which he now proposed, was to be conducted and confirmed upon the minute of the 3d of June, if he found that minute of the 3d of June con tained v:•ithin itself the power of reviving the former minute of the 13th of April, and if he found these two minutes closely connected together ; and if on the other hand, the forms of the House precluded him from bringing forward a vote of moving on the principle of last year, then he repeated that he had no alternative, and it became his solemn and bounden duty to give a direct ❑egative to the vote now before the House. Ile must say, that in the late debates which had taken place on this question, many unfounded aspersions, similar to those re peated by the Noble Lord, had been thrown out by Gen. tlemen on the other side against the zeal of those on this (the Opposision) side in the cause of education. The Hon. Member for Liskeard had said that the whole of this side of the House were opposed to the education of the people. A Learned Judge, (the Member for the Tower Hamlets), thought fit to pass sentence against them on this point, but he gave judgment in a way very unlike what he did elsewhere—he gave kidgment without hearing or considering the evidence. Had those Hon. Members looked over the list of subscriptions given by Gentlemen on this of the House for the endowment of schools and the instruction of the poorer classes?— ( Hear, hear.) He respected the man who gave 50/. to a school, or who devoted ten hours to its superinten dence, infinitely more than one who was content with merely giving a vote at the Board of Education, or placing his name in the ranks of some society. There was many a man professing the most philanthropic views on behalf of the Tartars or the Chinese, who would button up his pockets when he saw a beggar in °lir streets. What was done practically for education was the best proof of zeal for the cause. He would yield to no man a zeal for the enlightenment of his fellow countrymen, but he must consider it an indispensable requisite that intellectual enlightenment should go hand in hand with religious instruction. If they were not combined they had better do nothing. Ile would now come to a calculation on this point well worthy the consideration of the House. Ile alluded to some statistical tables by Guerie with regard to the state cf education in France, which showed the importance not only of having schools, but of conducting them on right principles. (The Noble Lord then read the opinion to which he refer red ) Those, then, were the two main principles which governed the views of those who sat on that side of the House. His first proposition was, that they should endeavour to extend education ; and his second proposition was, that education would not prove effectual unless it was bas 'd upon the principles of the Established Church. In bath these respects he thought the Government plan was de ficient, because, while it professed to extend education, its real effect was to put down the exertions that were =k ing on behalf of education. As to the first, the Govern ment plan was limited to the minute of the 3d of June; the former plan was not abandoned, but postponed till there was a greater concurrence of _opinion. Who were to judge of that? Why, the very Committee of Privy Council, who had affirmed the plan. There was no security so long as this scheme was not abandoned; or so long as it was only postponed. If the security provided in the present case was no safeguard for civil rights, it could be no safe. guard for religious rights. A great disadvantage of inter rupting the ordinary supply to the two Societies was, that the stream of private benevolence was thereby stopped. The National Society had received from Governmei:t 120,0001., but th It amount had drawn 250,000/. from voluntary subscriptions. But what was the reason for pressing this new plan upon the nation, vi:Lh a bare 'majority in that House for it, and an incalcu lable majority in the country against it? Even bene ficial measures ought not in a free country to be pressed against public opinion. And if the Government plan were not so objectionable as he believed it was, be (Lord Mahon) should oppose its being forced upon an unwilling country; for let it be recollected that though laws, how ever unpopular, might be enforced a system of education, if contrary to the public feeling, would be inoperative.—( Hear, hear.) Th e parents wo uld not send their children to the schools; and thus the effect would be, not to forward, but to retard education.— ( Hear, hear, hear. 1 It was a* delusion to think that the Goverment plan was so general, much , / 7 . /. G~ c EVEN I NG ED sTI 0 ' k, - td-7 , less universal, as it was d escr ib e d s , * 7 i e ts)Act sa ; 4 .;1: On these grounds, therefore, he ventur e d to thin sit7A e •:-.'-. , system of the Noble Lord, so far from pr o m ot i ng e tipk. would tend to check and discourage the efforts alrea 4 ' in that cause. The scheme would not protect the sateg of religion, and the adoption of normal schools vteSuir lead to total indifference on all religious matters. The Noble Lord in the observations he had made to the House declared that Hon. Members on his (Lord Mahon's) side of the House, were endeavouring to get the entire controul and superintendence of the education of the coun try into the hands of the Clergy of the Established Church. That assertion was most certainly unfounded, and the princi ple had been expressly renounced by his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth. He had stated that where the Dissenters were concerned, the Clergy of the Es tablishment were not justified in exercising any controul or superintendence. lie had listened atten tively to the speeches of the Irish Members, and . more especially those of the Hon. Member for Waterford, and the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, to ascertain :their opinions on the subject. About four years ago, a Committee was appointed on the motion of the Hon. Member for Waterford. Before that Committee the Rev. Dr. Wiseman, the Principal of the Roman Catholic College, was examined, and entered at great length into the system of schools in the Papal States. It was remarkable that while Roman Catholics were ceil ing out against the clergymen having controul over schools, it was a principle they invariably adopted. In the Romen Catholic schools, not a single laym,.n was em ployed. In Prussia, the joint system of education had been tried, but it was not found to succeed. Then, they had been told that in Switzerland it had answered. Now, he would take upon himself to say that it had done no such thing. Dr. Bowring, with respect to the joint system of education in Switzerland, had said that it did not answer there. The truth was that the joint system of education, with Roman Catholics and Protestant., was very much discou raged in that country. He thought that the plan now brought forward by her Majesty's Government ought to be looked to with very great distrust, and if he was asked what system of education should be carried on in this country on safe and proper principles, he would answer by pointing to the improvements that had taken place in this country during the last century. When he looked to what had been done, not merely in this country, but in others, he must say, considering the religious persuasions of the country, that he could not see any system that would do so much good as that which now existed. lie wished the British and Foreign School Society to go on advancing. Grants to the National Society and the British and Fe reign School Society ought to be continued, as he felt con vinced the system of those societies was the best for develop ing education. He had no confidence in the plan proposed by the Government, because he considered the discretionary power given was bad. He was as desirous as 'any man for the diffusion of education, but he thought that diffusion could not take place under the plan proposed. Ile was convinced that the present system of education would work infinitely better than the plan proposed by her Ma jesty's Government, because, however well it might appear in theory, it would not do in practice. The. Church had made great exertions of late years in the principle of edu cation, and those exertions were not to be looked upon lightly. He was sure if the House departed from those principles they would not give satisfaction to the country. It was one thing to tell the Roman Catholics, that they should enjoy a perfect equality of tights, and another to tell them that diffsrenees in faith should not stand in the way of . education.—(H2ar, hear, hear.) From his earliest years he had been the friend of Catholic Emancipation, he was, and always had been, ready to con cede what was just to the Roman Catholics; he advo cated perfect equality of civil rights, but he could not think that the proposed plan would be productive of such beneintial results. Oa these grounds, looking to the Noble Lord's system as open to very great objection, he trusted the House would not sanction it. He trusted that the House would take into consideration the 3,000 unani. mous petitions that had been presented against the mea sure. He trusted it would not be said that the represen tatives had tamely consented to what their constituents hal so indignantly rejected. He trusted they would recollect that they were there to defend the interests of their consti tuents, and they would best consult their interests by voting against the present motion. Mr. BAINES said it appeared that the Noble Lord who had just sat down had confounded two things which were essentially different. He had confounded the Go vernment plans of the lOch of April and the 3d of June, which were in his (Mr. Baines') opinion essentially dif ferent—the plan of the 10. h of April being liable to con siderable objection —( Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) He had felt that, and he was ready to declare it, and he had so expressed himself both publicly and pri vately.--( Hear, hear.) But when that plan had been modified, it was unfair to bring against it the very same objections. There had been considerable objection to the ecclesiastical machinery—a Dissenting Chaplain and a Roman Catholic Chaplain having been introduced in the original plan, but these had been abandoned. It might be said that Ministers had reserved to themselves the power of reviving the original plan.-4 Opposition cheers.) He understood that cheer, but it was not clear that if they at tempted to revive it the country that had already rejected it would do so again.—(Loud cheers.) Hon. Gentlemen might say, that when Parliament had been prorogued, and the Members had gone to their constituents, the plan might be revived; but would the country be silent, and were there not many moles of giving expression to its dissent ? Well, then, the Government had abandoned what was objectionable in the - plan, and had adopted one much better calculated to carry out the object they had in view. —(Ironical cheers.) It was now at. tempted to create objections to that plan, because the Government refused to grant the public money, with. out inspection and without responsibility.—( Hear, hear.) He had heard the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire with the greatest pain. He had heard him enumerate suspicions of the feelings and the honour and integrity of the persons be had been accus tomed to act with. Did not the Noble Lord recollect how his own plan had been subjected to all sorts of can vas and censure, awl he himself reviled as wishing to re. vive Popery in Ireland ; and yet the Noble ,Lord had the manliness to do that which lie hoped her M jesty's Minis ters would have the manliness to do—to persevere in his intentions. He hoped they would do this, and oppose the weight of their characters to unjust suspicions.—(Chetrs.) It was said that if education was granted to the people without the superintendence of the Church, it would in jure the national religion. He contended that such would not be the case; for, however the Dissenters and Catho lics might have a right to complain, the constitution of the Board of Education was such as to preclude the Eita blished Church from all just ground of complaint. Much stress had been laid upon the number of petitions presented to the House against the plan. He was not one of those who would disparage the petitions of the people, but if they were examined, it would be found that nine-tenths of them were not applicable to the plan at present before the House. That was more especially true of the petitions emanating from the Methodist body, a large portion of which did not apply to the plan at present before the House; and he would remaik further, that he did not find a single petition from any dissenting body but the Wesleyan Me thodists. Therefore a very numerous body of Dissenters had not petitioned at all. There was scarcely a single petition ftom any body of the Protestant Dissenters, and although they were not a very numerous class that was a point which ought to have some weight with the House. He would stow state to the House the sentiments of the re presentatives of the Independent, the Baptist, and the Presbyterian congregations. They s t a t e d i n t h e pet i t i on he held in his lnd that they were grateful to her Ma jesty's Government for the plan proposed for e st system of general education—that they deeply lamented the exten sive ignorance of the people, and that a remedy ought to be applied to that state of things. They felt persuaded that no voluntary association could successfully grapple with the evil, and they felt grateful to her Majesty for de claring that she wished to promote a system of general education for the youth of the kingdom, in which their religious instruction was attended to, while the rights of conscience were preserved.— (Loud cheers.) Nothing could more fully express the opinion of that party than the s!aternents contained in that petition.— ( Hear.) It was quite impossible that there could be a nic,rs favourable opinion of any plan. He was aware that it was extremely difficult to overcome those prejudices which more or less existed against any plan of national education, of which religious instruction formed a com ponent part. In three cases religion, instead of being a means of promoting education, tended to retard it. He knew not how any Government could better discharge its duty than by endeavouring to promote the education of those who were ignorant ; and no matter how they might modify it, there was no plan they could bring forward which would not be open to some objection. For his (Mr. Baines') part, with an anxious desire for the spread of strongly wished im pr to c s e e d e t hgeneral opinionnd notha that ed sectarian,°ucati the proposed system was as little open to objection as any n h e whileva was h e other that could be devised, and that the House would act very unwisely in rejecting it. He thought Hon. Members on the other side also acted very unwisely in raising a cry (for divesting it of everything extraneous it was a nothingivet d o else see when that cry had been put an end to out o hear.) He h a d lived of t ) h o e f d ; No Popery. "—(Hear, Parliament, and within its doors , and he hoped he should live to see the day when a system of general education, like the present, would be'adopted allover the country, and when the prejudices which had been artfully raised against it had been suff,Ted to subside. Aft( r apologising for having so long detained the House, the Hen. Member concluded by declaring that he would support the vote, and rosumed his scat amidst loud cheers. h T a E d l f G all N en M O froUinTsloiah some Gentlemen e l n is t t i e c led cn w o i n th to t a h s oo n th is e h r m s e id n e t to what Lold of the House. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down appeared to think there was less objection to tho present plan than to that originally proposed ; but did he not recollect that the same Board that was to have had the management of -the original seln , me was to have the superintendence of the present ?—( Hear, hear.) He ( Lord Teigtimouth) differed from those who thought that the British and Foreign School Society ought to be placed on the same footing as the National School Society, be cause, in his opinion, the 13ritish and Foreign School Society was a sectarian institution.—( Hear, hear.) They had heard a great deal about the State having a con. science. Every individual Member of the Legislature was supposed to have a conscience—( A laugh)—and according to that conscience they ought to act.—( Hear, h ear.) Now, in his c onscience, he believed the doc trineshe believed every a Member, to be t rue ; doctrin e differ_ of the Chu rch of En g land, cf which h e was lag from those of the Chuich to be false ; and therefore he objected to any system of education by which the doctrines of the Established Church were not diffused.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerialists. ) This, he was convinced,, was the opinion of the majority of the people of England. The Members of the Church of England amounted to ms ti m es the number of all the Dissenters, incl u di ng t h e Wet lYn rdistson ' and he object e d to g i v i ng one fart hing w system of educati on t h at was not founded , the principles of the Church.—( Hear, hear, t ny o d f r om the Ministerial benches.) He did n o t mean t o s ay the instruc tion imparted by the British and Foreign School Society was hostile to the Church of England, but "OIL as he had before said, it was a sectarian institution. Hon. Gentle. • _l