The Sun. — London, England, 1839-03-01 00:00:00

The Committee on Standing Orders was also a COM. metre of a purely judicial character, its duty beine Merely to report whether tile rules end regulatioes of the House had been properly complied with. But he must deny that the majority of Committees on Private Bills were exclusively of a judicial character. He would not say that, none of these Committees possessed any tlling of a judicial character, but he would sty that in the majority of Private Bills, which were referred to Committees of that House, questions arose, not of a Judicial character only, but in many instance: of a poli tical character also.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He would suppose that a Private Bill was brought in to that House for the purpose of lighting any town with gas; would the Hon. Gentleman contend that this was a question exclusively of a judicial character—( Hear, hear)—and yet the House would be called upon to ex clude from a Committee on this subject the repre sentatives of the place, because they happened to pos sess a local interest in the question. They would Ay that the Members representing this town, who were thoroughly conversant with the subject, who knew exactly the circumstances connected with the case, who knew the characters of those opposing and pro moting the measure, who had the opportunity of col lecting the opinions of persons conversant with the sub- J ,- et, are necessarily excluded from the Committee. Th. Ilonourable Gentleman a llud e s t o th e p ra cti ce o f t h e Louse of Lords upon this subject, but surely he - forgets the difference which exists in the circumstances in which Members of the House of Lords and Members of this Hoase are placed. He forgets that the Mem bers of the House of Lords have no representative character, and surely he would not apply such a rule as this to those who represented the interests of others. lie denied the right of this House to exclude a whole class from serving on Committees in this way. He had a stron g objection to the dangerous precedent whic they would be setting by thus disabling a whole h class fiosn serving on Private Committees.—( Cheers.) But he would like to see how they would be able to attain the end which they sought by this measure. Having excluded these Members from Private Committees, would they also exclude them f-om voting in the House of Commons, because if they did not do this they would nothing.—( Hear, hear.) What would be the reply of any Honourable Member when he should be told °Y a resolution of this House that he should not represent his constituents in a Private Committee? Why he would tell them that he was determined then to re present them in the House of Commons, and when the 13 d 1 was brought before the House, he would then enter fully into the discussion, as a duty which he owed to his co nstituents. Such undoubtedly would be the conduct of Members thus circumstanced. Such would be the conduct to which they would be excited by the pressure of the constituencies. They would force a discussion in this House, and the time of the House would be occu pied in doing that which could be much more effectually done in Private Committees. Hon. Members would be forced to this conduct in order to redeem the pledges Which they had given to their constituencies in their ad dresses prior t o their election. Had they not in those ;Addresses pledged themselves to watch over the local interests of the towns which they represented ? Had they not been chosen, in many instances, not on politi cal grounds merely, but on account of their local con nections, and the high opinion entertained of their supe rior acquirements by those who had returned them. But these constituencies could not say no intimate ac quaintance with their qualifications, no extensive know ledge of local interests were now of any avail. In fact, a knowledge of local interests would operate as a quali fication, and constituero . es would be forced to elect a stranger, to send to Scotland for a representative entirely u nconnected with the localitt and ignorant of local in terests. They would have to follow the example of Kilkenny. —(Loud cheering.) He had great doubts concerning their constitntionel right to do what they lead proposed, and he considered it would be impossible For them to carry this resolution into effect. If they were able to exclude local interests from Private C m- Mittees, still they would not do se from the House of Commons. There were important interests connected with politics in subjects which were brought before Private Committees, and who so fitting to be on those Committees as those who could give information with tegard to local matters, could state the compromise *Well had taken place between contending parties, and reconcile the local differences. He should, therefore, offer his strenuous opposition to a motion having for its object the proscribing a whole class from doing their duty to their constituents.—(Cheers.) Capt. PEC HELL—The position of Members could not be much better illustrated than it was a few Sessions a,go, whe n t h ere were no f ewer t h an fi ve R a il way Bill s for Brighton before a Committee of that House. Would his constituents at Brighton have been satis fied had he and his Colleague been excluded from that Committee ? Would they have been satisfied that %eir local influence should be shut out from the Ceieneaittee ? He for one could not stand there, and by his vote exclude himself from Committees of that House, inasmuch as at that moment he had two Pri rate Bills lying on the table of the House.—( A laugh-) He was perfectly convinced that his consti tuents Would not be satisfied with the amendment of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny—they would not be con tented unless the Members they sent to Parliament wese enabled to attend to their interests. He would therefore vote against the amendment.—(Cries of " Di vide, divide.") Mr. GREENE was not much in the habit of t roubling the House with his observations, but as this wes a matter to which he had much turned his attention, he hoped the House would allow him t° address a very few words to them. He - felt, himself obliged to dissent from what had fallen not only from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. P. - Thompson), but also from what ha fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet below him (S d ir R. Peel.) His 'tp.inion was that the proceedings before Private Corn neeteses of that House were most strictly judicial. — Of c %terse he was bound to dissent from what had fallen f rom t:ee Gallant Captain who had just sat down. He could not think that constituencies of Hon. Members would be at all dissatisfied with their exclusion from C ommittees a,Tecting their local interests—on the con trary he thought that very frequently their proceedings to those Committees gave great and entire satisfaction to their constituents. Take any line of railway, or take even that alluded to by the Hon. and Gallant Member for Brighton —take aoy line on which there were con tending and competing companies— Captain PECHELLsoThere were five competing e ftettnieis there. Mr-GRE•ENE—Take any line wii're there were two competing comnanies they would find that, in spite of a ll evidence aauced before that Committed, the Parties interested could tell, by a glance round the 100 m, how the Members presen t would vote.—(Cheers.) It seemed to him (Mr. G.) that they were enacting a Perfect farce when they sent parties before these Com -I.‘ittees with their counsel, agents, and witnesses, some tift, .'es at enormous, a l ways a t grea t, ex p ense , an d y e t, whaf•ever evidence was placed before that Committee, nO t One vote i n i t wou ld b e a lt ere d. Th ere was n tine% % fitness who gave evidence on the question. nev e lleved i t was M r . Ch a lmers, who said that he had r "en the vote of a Chairman of a Private Com mittee Br e a ltered by any speech, or any evidence that was et offered b e f ore one .—(Ch e ers and laughter.) These Bills g av e power to parties to take land ;—under other 4,id Ordinary . , circumstances the law held that a man's &louse was his castle, • yet -these Bills gave the parties Power to take land or house; as it suited their purpose. Therefore the whole of these Wit;itaught to be investi rietl'd oonimpartial and public g Zak and therefore thought that the Committees ought to be strictly Judicial.—( Cheers.) There was another point that he thought was most disgraceful, and tended to lower the character of the House. He would ask any Hon. Member who had the slightest knowledge of the work ing of Committees on Railway. Bills, whether it was not a fact, that individuals who were able to command larg e local or legislative influence, were not en abled thereby to command ten times the value for their land required by the Company.—(Loud cheers.) : ," he fact was perfectly notorious. Large local influence °eh:4g engaged in the C omm ittee it was said woul d p ut an end .to this state o f a ff a i rs , but on the contrary h e k n ew from experience that the case was the othe r wa y . He would stale one instance in his own knowledge. A Pe ; : l . ( In complaine4 to him of the proceeding s of a Corn ty,t'ee----he s a id, wi - :y not go betore the C ommittee then ? The answer wa s, he could not afford it , b e cause ‘ ', r. So -and-So, who had p romised to join him , had been b I °ll (ght off' by the Company, who had given him a large Vee for hi s l an d . — (H ear , h e ar.) He had a strong " eli ng upon th e su bj ec t, and felt an honest de sire to ee it improved.—( Hear, hear.) ifig feeling was very st.on ic--his mi n d was made up that unless they-re to ) Ired local i n fl uence f rom th e se Committees 0.3 e pub -I'e would not be satisfied, and the disgraceful system Of canvassin g be continued.—(Cheers.) h Mr. WARBURTON—There was one point which a ad not yet b een a d verte d to , w hi c h in his mind Plaroach e O very near to corrupt i on . H e had beard th at while R a il way C ompan i es were i n progress and were before the Committee a gentleman gave his regular endance and voted always in a particular way. Af ter the Bill h a d been obtained, and the Shares had sen to a premium, a person, under the name of a Secretary, or some s u c h term, w rote to him, stating that a certain 7,..iotirill number of Sh ar es h a d been put to his name, the intenti on , no d ou bt, t h a t th e p rem ium arising , those Shares should be a bonus or remuneration ' s ." li rlli! , .services in the Committee.—( . Loud cheers.) " ) ngS had been done.—(Loud cries of " Name, name ' " ) lie would not give a name, but the facts almosi:erfectly notorious, and were spoken of as passing every day, The question was how to preveC! t w b a a s t enrrupti on ? In his opinion the only way to do so an , by, ) closely limiting the number of the Committee, ue u a ty this means greatly condensing the responsibility. l reed with the Right Hon. Bart. opposite (Sir R. Peel) that th e questions that came before those Com i n) c ' t ,te(...a were very often questions of expediency. but still li !tino_rboo.lieved that Members not having local interest or "Mtteace Would do the business as well, and give much kletifaction to the public.—(Hear, hear.) He j did not titiok that the number of Members upon a IT - Committee would be,slifficielitly limited by the results lutions of the Right Hon. President of the Board of Traje. Again, it .;.i.e11,1 be a very .I,llcult matter. to decide upon every occasion whet(cr a Member proposed to be on a Committee had a local influence or not. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—There was one party whose interests had been entirely neglected throughout the discussion, and be wondered that they had been neglected by the Hon. 11 . 1emb'n - for Kilkenny. He meant tho:e who were unable to procure counsel f themselves. He could not assent to the amendment, because by so doing he would be saying that he was in capable of per Forming the duties ()this constituents, which wcra almost as important in a Committee in the House. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For th , .! original resolution For Mr. 1-lume's amendment • 35 Majority fur the original resolution —2lo On our admission into the gallery, w•e found Mr. AGLIONBY on his leas , moving an arn,nd ment to the second resoltrion, to the effect that Mem bers having local interests should be at liberty to attend Committees. but should not be allowed to vote. Mr. P. THOMSON could not consent to adopt the proposition of the Honourable Member for Cilbekermouth, as it seemed to involve greater ob j'etions than the one proposed by the Honourable Member fir Kilkenny ; for the effect of it would be to declare that Honourable Members were unfit to vote a 3 Members of Parliament. Mr. ELLIOTT would be willing to attend Corn mitte,.!s under the circumstances proposed by the Hon. Member for Cockermouth. He should be glad to at ter..l Committees without the power of voting, because he should then be able to •Natch over and plead the cause of his constituents. Mr. M. PHILLIPS trusted that the Hon. Mem ber for Cockermouth would not put the House to the trouble of a division on so absurd a proposition. If the Hon. Member succeeded in carrying his amendment, he would, in fact, be sending Hon. Members to sit on Committees as so many dummies.—(A laugh.) The amendment was negatived without a division. On the third resolution being put, _ _ . • Lord MAHON trusted that the House would in troduce some provision relative to Committeson Contro verted Elections. By the resolutions they were to have a Committee of Selection, to consist of the Chairman of the Standtog Order Committee, the Chairman of the Committee on Public Petitions, and the-Sub-Chairmen of those Committees. Now by the Bill of his Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Tamworth, they were to have another Committee of Selection, to decide who should sit on Election Committees : now, supposing that the Committee of Selection should select the same persons as the Committee of Selection on Election Petitions, in what an awkward position they would be placed. He only threw out these observations for the consideration of the House. The resolution was then put and agreed to. The fourth resolution was agreed to, after a few ob servations from Mr. Warburton. On the fifth resolution bean; put, Mr. AGLIONBY said he could not allow it to pass without making a few observations. If the House established a Committee of Selection they imposed upon them considerable duties, and by the present resolution the House would place them in a most invidious position. There would be such difficulty in carrying out the prin ciple of Selection on the importance and yeality of the interest, that he thought it would be much better that all Members locally interested should be eligible. Mr. P. THOMSON said he believed the Commit tee of selection would discharge their duties satisfacto rily. The duty was most important, and the task:of se lection must be exercised by some parties. He thought the House would do wrong in hesitating to delegate that task to the Committee, whom he anticipated would not shrink from it. Mr. O'BRIEN said he feared the principle of selec tion would be very liable to abuse. No principle was likely to create more discontent, than allowing Gentle men, however respectable, the right of excluding Members desirous .1 serving upon Committees, and he should suggest that these words be introduced, " That the Committee of Selection recommend to the House, the Members to be appointed." He thought that it would be as we►l that Private Committees be se lected on the same principle as Public Committees, and then the number might be more limited. Mr. P. THOMSON was of opinion that all ob jections would be obviated, by framing the resolution thus—" That the Committee have power to add Mem bers locally interested, if the reality of their interest be satisfactorily established." The resolution, as amended, was agreed to. On the next resolution, " That the Committee be empowered to appoint upon a Committee as many Mem bers, not locally interested, as they may deem necessary," Mr. P. THOMSON said that he did not see the necessity that the declaration to attend should be re quired from these Members. Mr. WARBURTON said that those Members who were not locally interested, and being, therefore, of course impartial, it was most important that their attendance should be secured—(Hear, hear) —and he thought that the declaration to attend should be re quired from them equally as from those who were lo cally interested. Mr. HUME thought all Members should alike be compelled to-promise attendance. Lord STANLEY said it was intended that all the imp )rtial Members should attend, but it was considered there would be difficulty in compelling the attendance of Members not locally interested. A great deal must, in such matters as these, depend upon the general understanding among Members. It had been deemed desirable that the Chairman should endea vour privately to ascertain who were willing to put themselves upon a List from which the Committee was to be selected, and who were to be considered bound in an honourable engagement to attend whenever called upon to do so. Mr. AGLIONBY thought the subject was involved in great difficulty. He thought that nothing had been urged against the objection of his Hon. Friend the Mem ber for Bridport. He believed it had been originally in tended to exclude those locally interested, but that ulti mately this resolution was framed in order to counter balance those locally interested by such Members as were impartial. If such a resolution was necessary for public justice, why not make it fully effective -(Hear, hear) —he should propose that these words be added " Such Members shall declare that they will at tend the Committee."—(Hear.) Sir ROBERT PEEL said no doubt the Hon. Members who had spoken were actuated by an ho nourable feeling to maintain the character of that House, and were anxious that such Members should be selected for Private Committees as would be im arbiters amid the collision of conflicting parta: interests. tie :_inufessed that his impression was in fa vour of placing those Members not locally inte rested on the same footing as those who were. —(Hear, hear.) He wished them to exercise a moral influence—(hear, hear) —and how could they exercise such an influence if they were placed on a different footing from the others.—( Hear.) He did not think that there would be any difficulty in asking them to declare that they would, to the best of their ability, attend and hear the evidence on which they were to decide.—( Hear, hear.) After a few words from Mr. PAYNE— Mr. P.THOMSON said, if the House wished it, he would agree to the amendment, though he thought there would be some inconvenience in it. After a few words from Mr. FRESHFIELD and Mr. PItAED, the resolution, as amended, was agreed to. On the last clause being read, Mr. ELLIOT proposed an amendment, to the effect that anv Member not regularly attending the Com mittee should be excluded from voting on any points which had been discussed durin g his absence, and re specting which he had not heard the evidence. Mr. POULETT THONISON thought the intro duction of such a clause would be invidious. The original resolution was then agreed to. PRISONS (IRELAND). Mr. Sergeant JACKSON begged to ask the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, when the returns from the inspectors of prisons in Ireland would be laid upon the table ? By the law of the land the time was gone by when they should be produced. Lord MORPETH said they only had been received yesterday, and it was the earliest period in which they had been received for the last sixteen years. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON was glad to find that there was some improvement in that particular. MR. WYNN'S CASE. _ _ Mr, JERVISMoved the appointment of the follow ing Select Committee on Mr. Wynn's case :—Mr. John Jervis, Mr. Goulbuvn, Sir Frederick Pollock, Mr. Solicitor General, Lord Staid:3y, Mr. Sergeant Wilde, Sir James Graham, Mr. Sanford, Mr, Ward, Mr. Pusey, Mr. Greene, Mr.WARD said as the preent Committee very much resembled that in the case of the Hon. Member for Southwark, he thought it indispensable, before the mo tion was put, that an imputation which had been tbrpwn out by that Hon, Member (whom he was glad to see again in his place) io his last address to his consti tuents, should be explained, J n that address he used terms which he should be happy to hear him explain. In that Address the Hon. Member stated that, he con ceived himself, although he could not recollect the exact words, to have been the victim of the Select Committee, with whose appointment he had nothing to do, and from whose proceedings he had been perfectly excluded. He believed every Member on t.at Committee was most anxious to do his du t y , and as to the Hon. N em . ber for Southwark being excluded from its deliberations there were present during the w hole of the sittings, until when th w e ere t.„ ": "m fi; i rl' ` l. • 'ttee wac about to deliberate as to her suggestions to be made ; but. •,„ l i co ' a t e d to ti . W a ccording to their Report, it was :. st . rangar, 1,w,4 mnft the rules of the House he wa: the import- withdraw. He (Mr. Ward) 'le:: ante of having the stateinents in that as— M ol O d t i h fi a e t d, Ho b n e s Ca e use it was most unriir to make such a st a t ement i n an a dd ress to a constituency, as a pplied to th e judicial proceedings of a Committee • He thought that some explanation THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY,- EVENING EDITION,-MARCH l, 1839. was due to the House, before another Committee of th e .:ame sort was appointed. Mr. HUME thought it was not altogether regular to call upon an Hon. Member to explain what appeared in the public journals. If they once admitted the principle, that Members must be answerable for what was reported in the public papers, or in Public Com mittees of that House, see what a situation Hon. Members would be placed in. The speech might or might not he correct.—( Mr. Ward said " It is an ad dress.") His Hon. Friend said it was an address, but even then they had nothing to do with what occurred out of the House. Mr. AGLIONBY said there might be some doubt as to the expediency of putting the question, but he be lieved in principle and practice that it was quite right. He contended that when any statement appeared calcu lated to prejudice that House, it was their duty to call upon the Hon. Member in his place to state whether what appeared in the public papers had been spoken by him, or whether he avowed or disavowed the expres sions ; that was done in the case of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. When the Noble Lord made his motion he had no knowledge of the matter ex cept from the public papers ; that was the origin of the proceedings which had occupied the House so long. An objection was now taken to the said course of proceeding, and lie saw no other way in which the question could be set at rest, if indeed it was worth noticing at al.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped, therefore, the House would call upon the Hon. Member to give it some explanation. He (Mr. Aglionby) had seen the Hon. Memb:.x in attendance at the Committee ; he heard all the questions that were put and the diseu-sians that took place, and he could assure the House that he (Mr, Aglionby) had . never once lowered his voice.— (Great laughter.) The Committee might have been wrong in permitting Mr. Harvey to 'be present during the two days of their proceedings, but be believed, ac cording to the rules of the House, Mr. Harvey was a stranger, and the Committee were justified in requesting him to withdraw. So far from (here having been any se cresy in their proceedings, the grounds on which they had come to their decision were communicated to Mr. Harvey. It was due to the Committee to state that much, and it was due to the Hon. Member for Montgomeryshire to say, that according to his judgment he had dome no thing that was not strictly according to the forms of the House. Mr. HARVEY having been called upon, said if the House considered it right that a Member of that House should be called upon to explain his address to his con stituents, he should not interpose any difficulty whatever. He had only hoped that they bad more important m it ters to engage their attention. As he understood the observation of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, he had been called upon in courtesy, and: he had no objection to give any explanation that was required. Tile Hon. Member, however, should not have been altogether un mindful of what was due to;him ( Mr. Harvey), foralthough he had been sitting in the House since four o'clock, and although the Honourable Member had been there nearly for the same period, it was a mere acciden tal suggestion about five minutes since which led him to understand that the Hon. Member was about to men tion the subject, or that he cared anything for what ap peared in the public papers. As he had been called on by the Hon. Member for Cockermouth to avow or dis avow these words, he would at once—and he was not one of those who would take shelter under one thing or another—he would at once avow and explain what he had said. If he was wrong, no one was more ready to explain or retract it. He did write that letter, and he abided by it. It was true, not only in the letter, bat in spirit. A secret and Select Committee of the House of Commons, in whose appointment he had no share, and from whose deliberations he was expressly excluded, had in its wisdom come to the decision that he had accepted an office of profit, and declared his seat to be vacated. That it was secret was not denied, be cause the Hon. Gentleman had admitted that all strangers were excluded. That it was select was also true, for that was the very title of the Committee. Iu the appointment of that Committee he bad no share, because the names had never been shown to him, nor had he been asked whether the Committee were acceptable in its persons, or as as a whole. True, he (Mr. H) had acci dentaly suggested to a Wght lion. Gentleman on the Treasury Benches that if there was no objection he would be pleased to see Mr. Sergeant Wilde and Mr. Talfourd on that Committee, considering that they were both able lawyers ; end with all due submission to the Hon. Member for Cockermouth, they might have been use ful in such a case, if they got a word in. —(Great laughter.) With respect to that part of the subject, he would say that he not only gave credit to his Hon. Friend when he had stated that he talked as loud as usual, but he heard nobody else speak.—(Renewed laughter.) The first day there was no deli'oeration at all. There were only five Members present, and it appeared to him (Mr. Harvey) that they considered it as a mere conversazione. They walked about the room, and stood at the fire, and there was a great deal of coquetting about who should take the chair. The Solicitor. General stated that rather than nobody should take the chair, he would. He was obliged to the Hon. Member for the compliment he had paid him in saying that he had an opportunity of hearing what he did not recollect. The only deliberation was as to the ques tions to be circulated among the Members who were to be summoned for the following Thursday. They did assemble on that day, and he (Mr. Harvey) carried his point notwithstanding the thunder of the Hon. Mem ber's voice that the Hon. Member for Southwark had no business there, the Committee being a secret and select one—nothing offensive of course was meant. He (Mr. Harvey) immediately said that all he wished was that the Committee should come to a conclusion as soon as they could. It was then intimated to him that he should retire, which he did most readily. Tho Chairman certainly asked him whether he had anything to state. He replied in the negative, adding that all he wished them to do was to decide at once. To show how little he had to do with their deliberations, (he did not mea❑ their talk or conversation), and to show how expressly he was shut out from them, the Committee directed the Messenger to tell him that they would be glad if he would wait in the Library during their deliberations. He did wait there, and if they asked their Librarian they would find that during that time a good many of its shelves had been de ranged as they sent for not less than twenty books to assist their deliberations, in which delibera tions he (Mr. Harvey) had no share whatever. If; in making that statement to his constituents, he had offended the Hon. Member or the Committee he was sorry for it. Why should he ?he was in excel lent humour with them all, and so were his constituents: —(A laugh.) He had nothing to apprehend from their decision, for as soon as the forms of law permitted it he was re-possessed of his seat. He would conclude by assuring them that he had no intention whatever in fram ing- that address to speak of the Hon. Member in any other terms than than that of kindness and courtesy. Mr. GOULBURN regretted very Much that the Hon. Member who had moved the Committee, had seen reason to depart from what he understood was the original intention of the House, viz., to submit the question to the same Committee as before—he was sur prised to find the substitution of the names of two gen tlemen to whom be had no objection farther than as it infringed on the general principle. The Honourable Member was proceeding on the supposition that two Members of the previous Committee 'could not attend, and that it would be therefore necessary to substitute other names, but he doubted whether that would justify him in appointing other Members. He thought it was their duty not to make any alteration in the original understanding of the House for the accommodation of any particular Member on the one side or the other. He had really considered the question as one which they were not to deal with as a party or political one. The present Committee was a new construction of it, more than one Member being added ; and he felt it im possible to give his sanction in such a proceeding. He hoped. therefore, the House would adhere to its origi nal understanding. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he bad sug- gested the substitution of another name for his, as it would be impossible for him, however anxious to do his duty, either in this House or before a Committee, to be present. He should be engaged for three days. After that time he would have no difficulty, but he thought the House ought to determine as early as possible. Lord JOHN RUSSELL believed that neither be nor the Hon. and Learned Gentleman intended to ask any Member proposed whether he should attend the Committee or not. He thought in a case of thii kind, which involved the seat of a Member of the House, there should be no delay, especially as the investigation was not one likely to last for weeks or months, but would be decided in two or three days. He should move the appointment of the original Committee. Mr. JERVIS had no objection ; however he could not substir,ore Mr, O'Connell for Sir Thomas Ackland, nor,Mr. Harvey for Mr. C resswell, because they had not given notice to that effect. He wa; indifferent about the opinion of the Committee—what he wanted wag to have the facts of the case clearly developed and laid be fore the public. Let no one accuse him of acting un fairly in this matter. He was willing to undertake the entire responsibility of the proceeding. However, for the sake of expediting the business, if those opposite would strike out of the eight members which their side of the House furnished, Sir Thomas Ackland and Mr. Cresswell, he would strike out Mr. O'Connell and the Attorney-General. Then the Committee wftuld consist of eleven which he moved accordingly. GOU L BU RN moved that the Attorney-Gene ral be r e tained instead of Mr. O'Connell. Mr. O'CONIigLL—I egetyl that :not*, Sir.— (Laughter.) Sir R. PEEL proposed, that to prevent,any unplea. sant discussion, and in order to accommodate'Members grteb sidp who could not attend, that four (viz. two front Peel; i - "Ide) 0 4 otild e omitted, altogether.—(Hear.) Doi : , would be quite en:o4 Mr. HUMb mould sit on Committees a rule that fifteen Members s nnaht that the Ho u se had laid d o w n of this kind.—(No t D n.) The present oPposition seemed as if Hon. Gentlemen were inclined to cavil at a tribunal which they had agreed to on a former occasion. Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that illness would prevent him from attending. Air. O'CONNELL did not see why the proposition just made to the House should not be acted upon. He thought that a man who was desirous to be on a Committee was not fit for it. A. man that attended a Committee should merely attend for the performance of his duty. Air. HARVEY said that if there had been no House on Tuesday, the Committee would have gone well off. He was glad of the suggestion of the Hon.' Member for Chester, but some of the arrangements that had been proposed were open to inferences unfavourable to the even flow of justice. lie would have the House remember that some persons were alive to their proceedings as others were sensitive to addresses.—( Laughter. ) When the Hon. , tlember for Montgomeryshire said that it was unnecessa. y to propose a Committee because he was satisfied the Member for Southwark had vacated his scat, it might be said that he should not be on the Committee because his mind was made up. Why, if Montgomeryshire were not as safe as South svark that would be some reason for him to be on the Commit tee. They must not be content with mere parole evidence now, they must have ample documentary evidence before the House, and he was satisfied then the House would came to a just con clusion. The original Committee .was then retained, with the excep tion of the Attorney-General, Mr. O'Connell, Sir I'. Acland, and Mr. Cresswell. ELECTIVE FRANCHISE (IRELAND.) Mr. O'CONNELL said that he stood rather in a predica ment, having given notice for this night to take a certain petition into consideration, and also fur leave to firing in a Bill upon upon the above -named subject. However he would :t trouble the House about the pet•tion, but would con flue himself to a few brief observations respecting the Bill. He would now, therefore, beg leave to move for leave to bring in a Bill to assimilate the Franchise in England, Ire-. Imd, and Wales. Probably this subject would .not much in terest the House, but it was of the greatest importance to Ire land. He understood it was the intention of the Govern ment to oppose even permission to bring in the Bill, but he a determination. The principle on s-hich he brought forwar sathhtli .Legislative Bill p € eo d gr ia i w t s t ! i v s a i et : i t t lo h l w un a o se t t e ni i n he aa E td a g nn l y a o England d b both tnhd principle c I o r u e I an a tt a d i was es ill t o, right! and privileges. If it were not so, the connexion was that of t. nits:er and slave, not the intercourse of citizens of the same tlbladienei d n ub :l yfi l: ti c tob e hnae t tb h iued e nt:ii‘io, House not to concur State. Having these principles, therefore, it was with deep regret he perceived that Government thought it necessary to oppose this measure. It would seem to authorise his repeated declarations that the Union had not been for the benefit of Ire land. However, he stood not here now as a Repealer, tho Ugh his sentiments on that point were still Free, but to propose a measure which would perhaps, in the consideration of some, make that measure unnecessary. This, however, could riot be considered t:nnecessary, unless Ireland had other advantages besides those she now possessed. Nut to weary the House by the repetition of truths so obvious, he would proceed to show the House that, in the case of that most impoi Sant right, the elective franchise, the difference between Ireland England was enormous—so great indeed, that he believed the House had no idea how infinitely inerior Ireland was in this respect. The comparative and relative number of persons exercising the elective franchise in Ireland was so small that it must be perhaps an object of surprise that any effective resist ance had been made there against the Aristocratic party, or that the popular voice from the country should be at all heard in this House. What he insisted on was that the same propor tion of inhabitants in Ireland should have the franchise as ex tensively distributed as the people of England. It was, indeed, a matter of complaint that the constituency of England was much too narrow, and he believed that that injustice arose in a great degree from the conduct of those who retarded the operation of the Reform Bill, and he had no doubt that the cry fur an enlarged constituency in England would be revived as 'soon as the weakness or wickedness of that party should have been exp-sed. However, his present object was, in the state of the elective franchise be tween the two countries, for although the Parliamentary con stituency was much too narrow in thi• country, it was infinitely more so in Ireland. He had examined Parliamentary docu ments giving particular returns of the number of Irish electors, which were laid before the House, after the fi-st registry after the Reform Bill.: From those documents he wonld read returns, Which would be the most favourable way of taking an opinion as so the number, because there we •e, more registered after the Reform Bill than since. It would be impossible to ascertain exactly how many votes hail been added to the lists since, be cause the registry for Ireland being for eight years, those who were once entered, were continued on the list of electors for that time, though many may have been dead or may have lost their franchise, or may be no longer qualified to vote. But is had checked those returns by the polls of contested electio..s, and he found that in every instance the number of electors en tered on the first registry was greater than at any period since, 'therefore in proving the lim•ted franchise of Ireland it must be admitted 'drat, he relied upon data that were upon suspicion, and that the number was greater in appearance than in reality. Now he would confine himself to the various contrasts by show ing the general superiority of England in respect to the nu.n ber of electors in several successive counties; and first he would show the minority of Ireland as compared with Wales. The entire population of Wales was 816,183, the number of electors was 37,124—the population of the Welch counties was 609,871, that of the electors 25,815. Now let them recollect that those "5.815 electors were in a popUlation of 609,000 in Wales, which he would now contrast with the state of the county of Cork. The population of the county of Cork, exclusive of cities and towns returning Members, was in round numbers 720,000, the number of electors was 3,635, less than 4,000 for 720,000 ; while Wales had 25,000 electors for 609,000 inhabitants. Now he would ask this House was it possible to suppose that the people of Ireland could feel themselves united to this country by an identification of privi lege=, when they saw one of their own counties having 720,003 inhabitants and only 3,800 electors ; wl.ilst Wales with 609,000 inhabitants had not less than 25,000 electors? Now he would proceed to show the inferiority of Ireland as contrasted with the counties. He would first state Rutlandshire, which was the smallest county in England; but the contrast would be seen better and in a more striking view by referring to the following statistical table:— RUTLANDSHIRE. Population Electors • Population. Electors. I Carlow ... . 73,953 - 1,248 2 Louth 3 Kildare 4 Leitrim . 5 Sligo. 162,482 941 6 Kerry 255,579 1,243 7 Mayo Rulandshiro, with less than 20,000 inhabitants, had morte (lectors than two Irish counties ranging between 70 , 000 an d 100,000. than two more ranging bet weenloo,ooo and 14 0,0 00 : than one more with upwards of 150,000: than one more with more than 250,000 ; and lastly, with another, with more than 350,000 RADNORSHIRE Population Electors Population. Electors. 8 Longford 9 Wicklow 10 Westmeath 11 Waterford 12 King's County 144,225 1,526 13 Fermanagh 147.364 1.640 14 Meath 15 Roscommon 16 Donegal At the last election there voted. In Longford (violently contested) Return as above Voted 1,172 Less by estmeath —Returned as registered 1,395 Voted Less by 257 Wicklow—Returned .. Voted 1,325 Less by 415 Dublin City—Registered Voted ,7023 Less by Though about 1,000 freemen added Cork County—Registered Voted ... 2,504 Less by WESTMORELAND. Population Electors 1. -LONDONDERRY COUNTY. Population Electors... Comparative Population. Londonderry 207,848 t Say 5 to I. Westmoreland Excess in Londonderry-165, 384 . Westmoreland Londonderry 1 Comparative Franch3se. 2 , 372 Excess in Westmoreland 2,20 2.--nowssiiiitx. Population Electors . . b Comparative3l33o7i:st6titonAout 6 to 1. Downshire Westmoreland Comparative Franchise. I Westmoreland Cork Excess 557 There is one instance a singular coincidence— Tyrone has a population of 301,325 Its Electors are 2,151 Flintshire, a population of 29,329 Its Electors are 2,151 Thus the population of Tyrone exceeds that of Flintshire more than ten times told ; yet the number of electors is precisely Ilse same. One Welshman is equivalent to ten men of Tyrone. These documents were taken from the Parliamentary Returns, from stateme is put forth by authority, and it would be seen by a reference to the 'cumbers polled at the last elect on in the severe contests which took place in Longford, Westmeath. Wicklow, Dublin CiS y, and Cork County, that the case was still stronger in his favour than he had steed. He thought that after these statemeuts the. e could be no doubt as to the gross and manifest injustice wh;eli had been done to Ireland. In this statement he made te.e of no vague assertions to prove his case; he had referred to his data for every assertion he had ma.i the truth of whi h was proved by the rules of mere vulgar arithmetic. But gentlemen might say that tt - e electors of Ireland were already filo numerous—he be lieved that there were gentlemen on both sides of the House who entertained this feeling towards Ireland. He saw an Honourable Gentleman who did him the honour to smile—but can any rational man consider that the people of Ireland are not deprived of their rights by this limitation of the franc:hi a ?--(Hear.) The operation of this was grossly unjust and injurious to the people of Ireland. The people of Ireland were as deserving of confidence as the people of England.— ( Hear, hear.) They had shed their blood as freely on the battle-field as the English had done, and they were entitled to an equal measure of justice.—( Hear.) It was true that her Ma jesty's Government had received the thanks of the Irish people, but why was this? Because they were the first Administration which, duringthe long series of years during which Ireland had been connected with England, had stated that it was their wish to administer justice impartially to the people of England. It was the first Administration which had ever administered the executive Government of Ireland with anything like impartial ity; but he would say that if the Government should this even ing oppose this act of justice to the people of Ireland, if they showed a desire to confine their impartiality to the merely exe cutive departments of the Government, they would lose the support of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) In England the 40s, freeholder possesses his franchise without occupation. In England, the 101. occupier possesses the fran chise. In' England, the richer country, they had the lower franchise, while in Ireland, th e p oor e r cou ntry they had the higher franchise. It justice were done, the con-, trary to this should be the case, for it was unreasonable that the franchise should have been lower in the poorer country than in the richer one. England in this respect presented a remarkable contrast to Ireland. Why should these fran chises not have been made equal? What was the comparative state of the cases regarding the mere money fran chise in the two countries. In England a man possessing a franchise of 10/. a-year was comparatively a poor man. In Ireland he occupied a much higher grade in society, and yet they were not placed upon a political equality ; if justice were clone the reverse of all this would be the case, and the poorer country would have the lower franchise. He knew- that it had been said that the 40s. freeholders of Ireland had been sacri ficed, in virtue of an agreement made at the time of the pass ing of the Emancipation Bill. There never was a grosser mistake than this. On the part of some persons he might say that there was never a more wil ful falsehood uttered. At all events it was a gross mis statement— that the last he held in his hand, the last resolution passed by the Catholic Association, which called upon the Parliament not to grant emancipation at the expense of the 40s freeholders. He was one of the 45 delegates who had come over from Ireland fur the purpose of watching the pro gress of the Emancipation Bill, and they had presented a peti tion to that House, praying them to stay the progress of the Einaneipation Bill, rather than sacrifice the 40s. freeholders. It was true that when, in 1825, Catholic Emancipation had been h umbly solicited, hopes had le en held opt that they might be brought to consent to the abolition of the 40e. freeholders as the price of emancipation, because up to that period many abuses, it must be admitted, had existed in the manner in which the 40s freeholders exercised their franchise, but their humble petitions had been scornfully rejected, and from that time they had determined to support the 40s. freeholders foot to foot, for after this period the spirit of the 40s. freeholders of Ireland had risen above ad temptations—(Hear, hear)—and in spite of every obstacle, frem 1825 to 1829, they had nobly done their duty, and it, was an act of injustice to deprive them of the franchise. -(Cheers.) But su , pose the scene to be changed—suppose this differeee between the two counties to be in favour of Ireland. Would England endure this ? (Cheers. ) Would En e iand endue that the coin, yof Cork heuhl have a 1 reer constituency than the coudty of Yot k ? Would the English Members go to bed before they hail brought in a Bill to remedy ties monstrous injustice? A Bill having this for it' , object, yr ould be brought in that very evening, the rule = and orders of the House would be dispensed with, Hon. Members would not go to bed until th e y had seen the Bill en ressed, which ould be ea- vied up to-morrow to the House f Lords, who would no delay an hour in passing it into a I.w. —( Hear, hear, hear.) He knew that he was obnoxious to many parties in that House. He knew that Hon. Gentlemen opposite treated his statements and prediction:; with scorn and contempt, but he had predicted before, that if they did not redress their wrongs, the people of Ireland would, by legal means, redress them themselves. It was a mockery to talk of a union of equality under such circumstances as those. Excess in Downshire 295,412 Comparative Franchise. Westmoreland, Electors... 4,392 } About 11 .one-tatr,, nCS3. Downshire .................. 3,130 Exce55.................. ... 1,262 '3. MAYO. Population Electors Comparative Pepulatio ' n .. ....... 1,350 Mayo ..................... 366,228 W es tmoreland. -- Excess in Mayo Comparative Franchise. Westmoreland •.............. 4,392 Mayo ........................... 1,350 Electors nearly 4to 1. Excess ........ ..... 3 , 04 2 4.—TIPPEItA population ............................ 330,435 El e ctors .......... . ............... 2,369 .............. 3 :4 435 4 About Bt o 1 Comparative Popolution. T W i P e s P t e rn r a o r r Y e laud ............. Front whet he saw, he felt convinced that this House. had no sympathy for the people of Ireland; they would even refuse him the mere ceremony of permitting him to lay a Bill to remedy this gross injustice, before them; but they should recollect that it was to . the Irish Members that they were indebted for the first majority on the Reform Bill. They had fought side by side with England . until they had won that Bill, and the first benefit that was granted to them in return was the Coercion Bill, and the last favour conferred upon them by the Queen's Government was to refuse them permission to lay this Bill on the table of the House. lie would try them by another test. Suppose this gross contrast existing between different counties in England. Suppose the southern counties of England presented such a contrast as the one he had that night presented. Suppose, instead of the county of Kerry it was the county of Kent, which had been thus de prived o f it s franchise. Would the English Members re t until they had remedied the injustice? ' He beseeched the House not to mock the people of Ireland with this delusive semblance of equality; they might threaten to 'et loose faction against them—they might make abortive attempts to govern Ireland by ha:aneing faction again - st faction, but he would tell them that they ct uld oo longer govern Ireland by faction—seven or eight successive ad • in:strations h.al been ruined in the at tempt. The pc, ple of Ireland were now too strong fur faction. Every person conversant with the state of Ireland, was aware of the necessity of encouraging landlords to grant leases to their tenants, in order to insure the tranquillity of the country. Now the direct oppositien to the existing state of the franchise, was to prevent landlords from grantingleases. The great evils of Ireland, are owing to agrarian wrongs, and these agrarian wrongs producedagrarian outrages,land the continuance of the present system, leading, as it does, to the annihilation of leases, tends to the encouragement and perpetuation of these wrongs and out rages. He knew that a great deal had been said of introducing the Protestant tenantry, but these Protestant tenants, unfortu nately- for their landlords, considered that their religion should pay part of their rent. The Protestant electors would not pay 1 1 their rent, but the Catholic electors would, and landlords as ill soon get weary of that religious impulse, the effect of which was invariably to lessen their income considerably. • Wirt a terrible thing it was that they were increasing the religious animosity —that they were introducing in the worst sh.ipo the fiend of religious discord, which was done by the Franchise which-they imposed upon Ireland. He might be told that the English franchise was a mass of evil, that it required amendment and regulation. Give it to Ireland as it stood, and then the Irish would assist them in amending the fran chise of England. He did not expect to hear from the Noble Lord that the Reform Bill was not worth giving to Ireland because it was so bad—he did not expect to hear such an admission—but bad as it was let them give it to Ireland, and then they would assist the English in making their franchise better. That was his sole object. He had intended to have altered his notice so as not to have included an extension with an assimilation, but having given his notiee, as it then stood, he thought it was better to take the sense of the House upon it, as he fully intended to do oe ce every fortnight during the Session.— ( Laughter). He would not in that way be precluded from doing so by the forms of the House. The Irish had a franchise of 101. nominally, but in reality it was a chatel interest of 201. Ile proposed that the franchise in both countries should he 51. In England there could be no objection to the proposition, for the Si. twenty-year holder was equal to the 40s. life-holder —a tenure of such a kind for twenty years was equal to it. That was an extension to which he would make no objection in Committee. He would take similarity, an identification in all points, but having given his notice as it r.ow stood in the paper, he was obliged to take the sense of time House upon it, with all its faults ; but he frankly informed the House that he would yield to them in Committee. He had now demonstrated that there existed a most extraordinary contrast between the fran -chise in the two countries. In the poorer country the highest •qualification was required—in point of common sense it should be the reverse. He would avail himself of the Act of Union, and even by it he proved his case. He wotkld not stand there to use threats, but he would tell the House that the people who had put confidence in him for se long- a period had instructed him to say that they were determined that they would nut be contented under such a system of gross injustice, and that unless they had a Union in reality they would not have any, and in order to make the Union one in reality he begged to m0...e for leave to bring in a Bill to assimilate the franchise in the two countries. E x cess in Tippe rar y ..•• 337,971 Cimparative Fra.nt•hise. Westmorelaland , E lectors 4,392 Tipperary .................. 2,369 1 Neady 2to 1 Excess in Westmoreland ,023 s.—aALwAv couwry, ... ' .3 ---tive Populati . 3,061 Population ......... ...... ............. 81,564 Electors ••• ....................... Compara:, 331 564 Galway .. ............... Westmoreland... . ...... 42,464 Move than 9to 1 in Ga 7 v c a e y s . s . . ..... a . C . h :O . n a . l . Y l) .. ;..r . lll . Vi . ; 7 3 3 3 . F ) 9 o6 ; 2ll l Thite iee . acrti(zwos.ne. third less in Westmoreland ............... 4.392 144 1 Galway. 6.—coal Con Nly. Population ...... ............... 720,030 Electors .................................... 3 83 5 Comparative P o pu l ation. ' s7k ... . ........ . ... ......... 4'4,40 01 4bout 14 to 1 Excess in Cork ......... 617,5% Mr. HUME seconded the motion. Lord MORPETH said that, notwithstanding the repudia tion of his Eon. and Learned Friend, he thought it his duty to state to the House, at the earliest oppor'unity, the mode in i which the Government intended to meet the preposition now ma.le. He felt obliged to admit the truth of many of the docu ments referred to by his Hon. and Learned Friend, and would liaJe been most happy that it had been in his power to support the motion. With these feelings and impressions he was anxious to state the reasons which infixed him to oppose—the reasons why he was not prepared to yield to the introduction of the measure of his Hon. and Learned Friend. That oration, taken in connection with other matters, rendered it the duty of the Government not to leave any room for misapprehension or uncertainty as to the course they intended to take. Acting otherwise, they would be giving rise to expectations—by acced ing to the introduction of the n easure they would be giving rise to expectations whi..h, under harsh necessity, they might be obliged to .lisappoint ; and they were also, on the other hand, to take care that they did not waste the time of the House in discussing the merits of a measure which it was already known would not be carried. He was far from claiming for any Act of Parliament that which was denied to anything done by human authority—he was far from chin - Ong perfection for an Act of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) Still less was he prepared to contend that the time would soon come when it might be permitted to them to sweep away every vestige of inequality from the Statute Baoli.—( Cheers.) They were al ready engaged in the work in another field, and he apprehended that by multiplying their object a they would run the risk of dis tracting and dividing their exertions, and weakening their exer tienS. With respect to the question of identity he could not deny that there was a great disproportion shown between the ranchisca iof the two countries by his Hon. and Learned Friend, but he would beg to remind him that there was not a perfect identity between the fra.nehiaes of England and Scotland ; still though disparity existed it did not exist in such a degree as many of those cases brought before the House non. an d Learned Friend. While he . --mettv repudiatel the question of finality as appped to any Legislative measure —( cheers) — and however anxious he was for the ultimate removal of all re maining inequality between thee two countries, still he could not exclude from his observation that the motion, if carried, would be a direct violation of the great healing measure of 1829, the Emancipation Act, and of a still more recent Act, the Irish Reform Bill of 1832. At the time the last measure wiis in progress through that House, his Hon. and Learned Friend brought that very motion, with all his accustomed ability, be fore the House. It was negatived by the Parliament of that day. Was it to be said by any one that the MAI Reform Bill had failed? it amid not be said by his Hon. and Learned Friend when he I)4ed around him and saw those benches, and saw them filled with his political friends. At the time the House denied the motion for re-establishing the forty-shilling freehollers, his Hon. and Learned Friend stated that the Bill would extend the 1 , 0% ,qr ef the aristovracy, and increase that of the oligarchy c‘ hicti bad so long ruled Ireland, that it would give over the whole representatation of Ireland to the absentee proprietors of that country, and that A better Bill could not be devised - t for throwing the whole controul of the representa:tion into the hands of the aristocracy.—(Hear. hear.) It is not on the ground of fulfilled prophecy that his Hon. and Learned Friend now supported his motion : the aristocracy of Ireland had lost much of their former power, and he (Lord M. ) did not see with what success he could recommend the motion to their consideration on the ground that they were not already in a sufficient minority. With respect to what took place on the passing of the Emancipation Act in 1829, he did not see that there was any indissoluble or inviolate compact, nor that there was even any understanding bAween the parties; still they all knew that the disfranchisement of the forty-shilling freeholders was made a condition by those who brought forward that measure, the only statesmen of the day who had power to carry it—it was made a condition by them for the passing that measure. With respect to what had been obtained since then, he considered all that occurred on the Tithe and Church question—.he considered that the hear burnings which those questions gave rise to were natural, if not inevitable from the unfortunate position of society in Ireland. He was therefore the last person, considering the line of con duct he pursued on that occasion—he could no t bring his pre sent conduct, as any matter of reproach against him. Still it was impossible that it could be contended that all that has taken place subsequently to 1829—it was impossible to contend that the minds of those parties -who then felt great distrust—it was impossible to expect that what has passed since can have quieted their minds, or assured them to such a degree as to make it impossible for them to expect that Parliament would give its sa,ction to the motion of the Hon. and Learned Member. He had only further to say, that in any feasible or practical mode for extending the rights of the Irish people and extending to them the benefits of good Government., he would he most anxious and willing for its success, and to second the efforts •of those who brought it forward.—( Hear, hear.) Upon the present occasion, though lie could not adopt the motion, lie had the comfort of knowing that he was not opposing or pi c ki ng out a d i ff erent measure for any one of the three countries of the Union. The Government were most anxious to carry out the Reform Bills, to their utmo st extent, yet they felt themselves compelled to refuse in either of the countries to change or alter the nature and extent of the fran chise which the Legislature, in 1832, thought fit to adopt. Agreeing that his Hon. and Learned Friend had shown a great disparity between the franchises o' the two countries, still he thought that they could not rightly disturb the arrangements accompanying such important statuies as the Emancipation bill and the Reform Acts which would only have the effect of continuing and not removing the disputes whieli now unhappily existed between the two Houses of the Legislature. Acting under these feelings, he felt himself compelled to give a decided though a reluctant dissent to the motion of his Hon. and Learned Friend. Sergeant JACKSON—Before going to the immediate ques tion before the Ho ese he must congratulate the constituents of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, upon his having aban doned—having given the go-by—to the petition which he was to have brought under the notice of the House that evening. Then, with reference to the course taken by the Noble Lord, he must congratulate him and the Government pun their hav ing screwed their courage so high zee to oppose the motion of the Hon. Lord's lion. and Learned Friend.--(Cheers and laughter from the Tory Benches. ) He ( 11r. Jackson) would have been pleased, however, had he taken some other grounds for such a proposition. Tire N able Los d had con ceded that to his Hon. and Learned Friend which he not have done had he ldoked into the Reform Bills for Frigland and Scotland. More fallacious arguments than had been put forward by the lion. and Learned Annber it had never be.en his fortune to hear upon any question. The proposition he took to establish was that there was a restricted franchise in Ireland as compared with that which was in England, and, to make out this case, he took the relative population of the two countries. lie (Mr. J.) would take the liberty of sav ing that this was as complete a non sequitur as had ever been put forward. He denied that it ever was the pi inei ple of the Reform Bill that population should be its basis. Was not, he would ask, the principle of th a t Bill that it s h ou ld rest upon property '1 That was the great error into. which the Henourable and Learned Member for Dublin had fallen, arid he was astonished that the Noble Lord should so far have been led away by that Hon. and Learned Member's eloquence. Bold as the Noble Lord was in defying his Hon. and Learned Friend, still in order to try a little of the soothing system, he calls upon his Hon. and Learned Friend to indulge himself in the hope and expectation that the clay was not far distant when he might be allowed to join him in his object.—( Loud cheers and laughter.) If they would put the two eases in juxta-position they would ti id that the Irish franchise was more extensive than the English. The lion. and Learned Gentleman laughs, but he had gone to the fountain head, and could prove it by documents which he had then in his pocket. Before alluding to it he begged to put both the Honouralle and Learned Gentleman and his Noble Friend right with regard to one point. The Reform Bill for Ireland did not extinguish the 40s. freeholders —they wereextingeished by that Bill, the passaig of which -was hailed by the Hon. and Learned Member with more enthusiasm than ley aey other per son. The Hun. and Learned Gentleman said they were then in - a different position, because they were then praying for emancipation. What was the eyidence given by the Ho nourable and Learned Centleman himself on that occasion— given to those eminent statesmen who passed that Bill ? and acted upon them as evidence, which they believed to be given in perfect good faith. In answer to a question the lion. and Learned Gentleman said—" I think it would be productive of benefit—in my humble judgment, of no small benefit—to raise the qualification in Ireland to 101., as it would get rid of a great deal of perjury—no small benefit of itself. lie (Mr. Jackson) had heard the Han. and Learned Member animadverting very s'rongly upon those who dared to assert that there was anything at all like perjury com mitted in Ireland with regard to elections. This lion. Gentle man, however, went on to say that the la qualification would be a benefit to Ireland for this reason, that Ireland wanted a substantial yeomanry in the country.—( Hear.) Now he would ask the House to hear the evidence of the Hon. Member for Dublin upon which the mater depended. Hear the evidence of that Hon. Gentleman on the matter of beneficial interest:—" I think it would be for this reason, that there must be a general profit of 101. per annum and a freehold tenure, and many would rather make a sacrifice of 101. instead of 20/." Such was the construction of the lion. and Learned Gentleman, and yet he had frequently came down to that House_ nd ar raigned the Judges of Ireland for not knowing how to perform their duties. Now he would state to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and to the Noble Lord who had called him his Honourable and Learned Friend, what were the qualia catiofis in Ireland, that did not exist in England. First of all with respect to counties, and he put Gut of view the 40s. qualification ; he was now trying the two Reform Bills, the one for England and the other for Ireland. In the country they had two -qualifications, which did not exist in England, the lessee for 20 years having profits of 10/., and the sub lessee for 10 years, having profits to the extent of; 5/., and in enmities of cities there were qualifications which did not exist in England: so that, altogether, there were eight qualifications in Ireland, which did not exist in England. It was, therefore, preposterous to argue the question as the Honourable and Learned Member had done, and it was equally preposterous to admit, as the Noble Lord had done, that the Honourable and Learned Member was well founded in his statements.—( Hear, hear.) That was not the ground that the Noble Lord ought to have taken in resisting the motion of the Honourable and Learned Member for. Dublin. He ought to have told the Hon. and Learned Genet:main that the Reform Bill was not to be tossed about in that way. They had gone back greatly already. and it was not to be said that they were to continue going back ad infinitum. For his own part as lox* as he could preyeat it the Hon. and Learned Gentleman should not drive them further down by his threats and menaces.—( Hear, hear.) When lie had commenced his address he had promised the House that he would not detain them long,,and lie would now sit clown with thaeking the House for the patience with which they had heard him.--( Hear. ) Mr. REDINGTON conside. - ed that the speech of the Learned Sergeant was no answer whatever to the statements of the Hon. and Learned Merqber for Dublin. He had not met one of the inconsistencies to which that Hon. Member had adverted as existing in the franchise in Ireland. He denied the statements of the Learned Sergeant that the foundation of the Reform Bill was property; it was a combination of property and population.—( Hear, hear.) He did not believe that the House would refuse to adopt the present Bill if it was aware of only half the, discrepancies with respect to the franchise in Ire land. The Hon. and Learned Sergeant might know some thing of Cork, he might know something - of Baron Penue father, but he had shown himself totally ignorant of what the franchise really was in Ireland. The Learned Sergeant had quoted the evidence of the Hon, and Learned Member for Dublin, but in his opinion that quotation had told against and not in favour of the case he wished the House to believe. He (Mr. R.) had heard the commencement of the speech of the Noble Lord with great pleasure, for if there was one thing more than anotherthat he did not approve of it was finality, but he did not think that any good would be effected by changing that word to the word settlement. What had the Noble Lord stated ? why he had said that fc•sm the state of parties in that House it was not likely that the Bill oaf the Hon. Member would be allowed to pass. The Noble Lord the Member for Stroud would have scorned such an argument ; he would never have laid down such a principle asthat measures ought net to be introduced until they were certain of meeting with success. If the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud had adopted such an argument what. he would ask, would have become of the Re form Bill ?—( Hear.) Iu his opinion the House would act in the very worst spirit if it refused to the Irish people an oppor tunity of remedying ackeowledged abuses, and prevented them bringing their complaints before that House.—( Heat. ) Colonel CONOLLY, though he was glad that the Noble Lord had resisted the first relating of the niu, could not but be alive to the evils that would arise from the Noble Lord holding out the expectation, that though the measure could not succeed at the present moment, the time was not far distant when it might. The Noble Lord seemed to him (Colonel Conolly) to be playine, second fiddle to the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, in exciting disturbances, in Ireland. He had spoken of the measure simply as heing deferred. Lord MORP le 11—No. Colonel CONOLLY thought that the Noble Lord had so stated, but whether he did so or not, ho seemed not to have sufficient firmness to resist his Hon. and Learned Friend.— ( Laughter.) He (Colonel Conolly) had said over and over again in that Iluuse, that of all the curses that had been in flicted upon Ireland the 40s. franchise was the greatest. There was no greater source of misery, perjury, and corrup tion, than that scourge which had been inflicted upon Ireland, and if anything induced him to support Catholic Emancipation, it was the sweeping away that great evil, —( Hear, hear.) One of the great causes of pauperism and wretchedness in Ireland was the 40s. franthise, The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had taken occasion to say that landlords did net give leases in Ireland, in consequence of the franchises arising out of them. Ile (Colonel C.) had said hef, - 4c, in that House, and he now repe.ted it, that many ;411diords did not give leases in consequence 4f the agita'sion and evils those leases brought on then. tenaeiey: in consequence of the tumults and riot to which they gave occasion. In his (Coltmel C.'s) opinion the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin had done more than any other man by the course he had adopted to prevent the granting of leases. But what was the converse of this proposition ? Why the 101, rvanalise had acted in the way his Hon. and Learned Priendhad described, it had constituted a tenantry that were not to be intimidated by having cross,b,ele,, put over their doors.—( Hear, hear.) He entreated the House to cherish the franchise which Ireland now possessed, for if it did, the effect would shortly he that agilation would be set at. d.;;;;ianee. Mr. V. STUART supported the re - ,,eion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin-2, 0 agree d with the Gallant Colonel that it vvoul'' -,,es h o right to carry the franchise so low P. . out he was r or things should cease to exist. Mr. W. ROCHE supported the Bill. N a N v E le L n L e rd b t u h t a , t fr it oi t n vas t n h o e t clonusrtsieitethntaitonthteo debate the ei had r. M Io taken, ° Le i C at° it was necessary that he should make a few observa- • tions in reply. The Gallant Colonel seemed perfectly satisfied with himself, and as he (Mr. O'Connell) was not disposed to disturb that satisfaction he would pass him by.—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord had held out something of promise to the ear, but had disappointed it so the sight. He objected to finality, but he would substitute another word for it. The Learned Sergeant's speech deserved a littlemore attention. He had read a passage from the evidence he (Mr. O'Connell) had given before a Committee of that House, iii order to show the construction that he had put upon the Reform Bill, and ha had stated that lie (Mr. O'Connell) had arraigned' the Judges for misconstruing that Act. Now, unfortunately for the. Hon. and Learned Sergeant, he had read evidence given by him (Mr. O'Connell) in 18')5, to show time con struction he had put u,:on an Act which had passed in 1532.—( Hear hear, hear). He had stated that in that evidence h e (Mi. O'C.) had abandoned the 40s. freehold. Now if the whole of that evidence had been read by the Noble Sergeant, the House would have seen that he (Mr. O. C. ), so far from having abandoned the 40s. freeholders, had stated that nobody would think of meddling with them. He would put it t, the House whether it was candid or fair to read passages in the ensuing page without reading the pages that p rece d e d it ? But the Learned Sergeant had told the Howe that they had i n the towns of Irel Ind an immense number of franchises that did not exist in England. Now was that so in point of fact? In Chester, with a population of upwards of 21,010 persona nearly 2,000 enjoyed the franchise ; while in Belfast, one of the richest towns in Ireland, with a ,population of 5 1 i 3 n , g oo fo o ai about 1.196 enjoyed the franchi se . wa 2,400 inhabitants, and 334 voters, while Ban don,i p h e a r d so 2 n 5 ,4 , only with 12,000 inhabitants, had only 250 voters. And vet it was said that there were more town voters in Ireland than in England.—( Hear. hear.) Why, there were three franchises in England which there were not Ireland—the forty-shilling freeholders, life or lives, without occupation—the forty shilling freeholders in perpetuity, not requiring occupa tion, and the 101. clear yearly value not requirin g ; oc cupation.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Reform Bill might have been expected to work worse for Ireland than it had done. Judge Crampton had called it a Conservative measure. It had become necessary to counteract its unfair tendency by po litical agitation, and, (continued the Hoe. and Learned Gentleman) you have created that political agitation, and you have continued it by the Reform Bill you gave us. Continue the injustice, and you continue the agitation.—( Hear, hear. ) What care I for the paltry censures of creatures whose intel lects I despise—whose political principles are to me contempt ible.—(lronical cheers from the Opposition) What care I for the censures they choose to throw out upon me ? I take them with perreet good humour.—(Laughter from the Opposition. ) Oh, you are mistaken if you suppose that I don't—l ought to be well accustomed to it now—it ought to have little effect upon —( Laughter. ) Well, I have made out my case. I have shown you, that in one English county there were, with 42,000 inhabitants, more voters than in any county in Ireland, though eve have counties numbering up to 700,000; that in English counties; with 16,000 inhabitants, there were more refers, than in Irish counties with 360,000 inhabitants; and that in towns, such as Bandon, with 12,000 inhabitants, you give us less voters than in England you give to 2,000 inhabitants.—( Hear. ) And do you talk about settlement ! Settlement in words—dis severance in reality.—(Cheers.) Why, when we extorted Emancipation from an unworthy Minister, do you talk about settlement? We demanded our rights. You said, " what will you give us if we give you your own ?" Our answer was " nothing." We got our own to a certain extent, and new you talk of settlement, forsooth, because having the legislative ma chinery in your hands, you took away the rights of the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.) You kept that measure of jus tice from us twenty-nine years after the Union—as you call it. The Prime Minister obtained the Union by the distinct promise under his hand that emancipation should be •:ranted—though, to be sure, like a man of honour he threw up. office, when mifortunateiy George 111. refused to allow him to grant emancipation—(Cheers)—and then the Learned Ser— geant comes down and exults in the interesting historical fact tile the 40s. freeholders were abolished before the Reform Bill. Why, it was the intention of the Reform Bill to create fran chises. I endeavoured to get these 4bs. franchises revive—l divided the House—but there was a majority against me—as there will be now. I know that Irish, rights will find a few generous supporters—but there will be an overwhelming ma .or-4y—stilt it will not terrify me; it will give me other duties —I will agitate—( Louie:el cheers from the Opposition)-1 shall hear many cheers more pleasing to me than those—( Laughter) —you may laugh the Irish people to scorn—you may despise them—but they are -it least seven millions—( Laughter and ironical cheers from the Opposition)—but you earn it intimi date. Though you bring the piety of landlords into practical persecution—Oh shame upan your religion!— ( Loud laughter from the Opposition.) You belong to the most persecuting Church that ever existed.--( Roars of laughter from the same quarter.) Sir, I shall divide the House, and give Ireland an opportunity of knowing how many on either side of the House will vote for justice and equality. All I claim is equality with England—l do not desire more_ I will never be contented with less—l will obtain it through this House, and by this House, or I will obtain it constitutionally out of this House.—( Loud cheers.) Mr. Sergeant JACKSON explained that he had not said there were more borough votes in Ireland than in England, hut that there were snore qualifications in counties of cities in Ire land than in England. Mr. BLACKSTONE said the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had made a great inisteternent with regard to Wal lingford. Since the Reform Bill the population had increased from 2,000 to 6,000 or 8,000—( Loud cries of " Hear, heae," f7OM the Opposition)—and fourteen parishes had bzen added. Mr. O'CONNELL—My calculation was as to the old borough—taken front Parliamentary documents. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the liaise di vided, when there appeared — For the motiln Against it Majority —63 CANADA. Mr. LEADER said he would withdraw the notice he had given relative to a petition from Montreal until after the Go vernment measu-e with respect to Canada was brought forward, as the Noble Lord had said he should introduce it before Easter. But he wished it to be distinctly understood that if the Govern ment did not very shortly bring in the Canada measure, he should submit a motion to the House on the subject of the pe tition. LAW OF LIBEL. Mr. O'CONNELL - then obtained leave to bring in a Bill ta amend the law of Libel. The Bon. and Learned Gentleman stated that he had conferred with the Attorney-General upon his proposed plan, and he believed there would be no objection to his bringing in the Bill. NATURALIZATION OF FOREIGNERS. Captain PECHELL said the case to which he was about to call the attention of the house would show the great incon venience that had resulted from the course which a :great in: , - jority of the house had deternined to pursue with respect to receiving petitions. He would confine his observations to the narrowest limits consistently with the justice of the case that had been cemmitned to his charge. He begged to call the at tention of the house to the petition of Jacob Sehright, in the hope that the Gorernment would devise some means of giving pi otection and encouragement to foreigners who settled in this country. The petitioner stated, that upon the ground of his bring an alie:i he had been struck out of the List •f Electors for the Borough of Brig , leen, althougo he had been, an inhabitant homebolder for twenty-three years, and hail I:_aid rates and taxes during that Period ; that during ilie. late war ha • served under , Sir Ralph Abereromby and the Doke of Wellington, mid was twice severely wounded, and that after a long and faithful service he retired from the army, in the expectation of enjoying the rights of a British subject, bue that he now found hinese:f deprived of the elective franchise, which had been conferred upon him by the Reform Bit ,on the ground of his being a foreigner. H o also staid thlt he felt deeply mortified that while he acted as a special constable, anil was caled upon to pay all rates and taxes, that he should be prohibited from giving a vote to a Ale:nliei t of Parliament, and p ra y e d th e house to take into considers,- tion the law on this subject, in order that he might no loaner be excluded from enjoying,the elective franchise, The Hei,,,,;,... a u s a li:fi n c l a ya t i lo n e E able and Gallant Member then stated that the di:- qualicat ion of foreigners rested on the common la; of the country, and not on any Statutory enaet r end that law principally related to the disqualification of ni. fit, r s e it s t e il l i u g a i e n n, th i a b t at ll o o f u 1. e 69 0 3 r , ind declaratory Council sratory e f suchT h er d e is e c v and it stated that an alien, not; being naturalized, had to vote for the election of Members to serve in l'arliQanl'ight N't ry shortly after that it was shown that a Scotch Memberle'lt". was not qualified to sit in the House, for Mr. Stewart was cl a . jetted to as a Scotchman, and as not being a natural born sub ject, and his election was declared void. But since that tim e no enactment could be found which prevented an ali en voting for a Member of Parliament; on the contrary, there were ~e' riot's enactments from the time of Queen Anne down to Gee r ., 111. which showed that every encouragement was given t o f oreim s Protestants to settle in this country. Thepetitioner was a stem le.e) Protestant. He had paid all rates and taxes, and by the statute of sth Anne he ought to be considered as a natural born subjeet of the realm. By the 28th of George 111. a great latit u d e was shown to foreigners, for it was enacte,a that any forei gner trading for five years in the whale fisher ! was considered a nat nerd born British subject. He thourelit the Government ought to give greater facility for the tee.ocesses of denization or natureli zation. In the present '.nstanee he stood forward on behalf of our old soldier, an, a man could not obtain a Naturalization Bill without incurring great expense. The process of deniza tion was tedious, difficult, and expensive, and a great ninny would be glad to become British subjects, if the process vets more simple. In the process of denization an affidavit was re-. persons might he quired 'rota a certain number of householders of the residenNr pay 224/. of the paity ; the Secretary of State took the case into con sideration, and if he was fortunate in his application he had to pay 140/. He understood that a number of se G to eor e g a a ch ol . tl included in one patent, and so far the expense would be dimi nished. If seven people applied they would have to and the eost to each person would then be 32/. He found that on one occasion, in 1795, sixteen persons had been bunch I wasi ri t o 221.ene patent T lat of w as theo denization, ldG e a r n m d a the b band d pe o n f II '''' ' n the great drum and all were bundled into one pp,t anti brought before th e Goy e e v i e n . - (Laughter.) But since that time he could not find that en i t. .• aof remedying, the evil. Its than seven had been introduced into one patent. He believed that when the sebjeet was fairly me.tt they would find the mea:. honed that no advantage would bo taken from b s .:ot having gone further into details.—(Scat, hear.) He had 'in one or t .6 occasions been thrown overboard beenuse lie had not pro nerly gone into the ca e_—(A hugh).--but teis was one that would speak fir itself, and therefore he hoped there would be no opposition to the motion he made, which was to facilitate the object of the Reform Bill. In conclusion, he would simply move for u return of all fees and expenses charged on letter patent of denization, and also for a return of the greatest num ber of persons included in one patent. Mr. MACKINNON had been requested by the Hon. and Gallant Memher to second the motion. He had no objection to do so, although he would be like a small tender following i n the wake of aline of battle ship. He did so, because he hoped - it would clear up a point not generally understood in the country with regard to the franchise under the Reform Bill and he wished to ask the Law Officers of the Crown how the law stood on this point. In the first place ; be was not aware reigner should not have a vote for a borough . . t l l i i‘ e -idual,.‘ e v ( he there that there was anything in the Hamm Bill which stated a fo was nothing in tint Bill which said and paid anin rates and taxe, - , an individual wh cupie.l a tenement of 10/. a thoayseene•eleahrtedPaurlpia.mbyetni:ti That was the first point Gentleman opposite. The next question he Hon. and Learned slice4id not have a vote f h o e r Members and who w )(-) e l a i al e hr d e rs t o was placed on the list by the C Ba ' rrister, on the ground a o s f r l il ii; jeered to before the Revising , bandi did not lie oz being a foreigner, the onus p. o . wished to ask was, whether in i t u h i e ch e % a y s a e rd o e f n dthat the Ho . the person •objection, lie believe n. and Gallant snaking the his argument on this, that by the 7th A nne, M ember rested foreigners in this • - c. 5, all individuals, Protestant country, it k the oaths and the sacrament were naturalborn subjects , they to° His Bon. Friend - riend hail • in the army should have the sates privileges as natural born ' subjects; nil, as he conferred he was not very well i n f ormed on t h e subject, len requested the Hon. ant Learned Gentleman 1 opposite :mots be good enough to give him his id eas on the sub;;,et without a fee.—(Laughter.) The ATTORNEY-GENtRAL would feel much pleasure is giving the best answer he could to the several questions that had been put to him. In the first place, it had been asked what alteration had been made by the Reform Bill respecting; the rights of Aliens? He answered—none at all,—( Hear. ) The law, in their case, had always remained the same, and an alien had no right to vote any more than to have a seat in Par liament. The next question was on whom did the onus probwidi he supposing an objection had been made after the overseer had returinel the party as duly qualified, and having pate his rates ea d, taxes ? Most clearly the objector was the person nine ; whom the onus rested. It was to be presumed that a Berson so returned was a British born subject, until the contrary was proved. The third question administered to him was if h ., the r-gistry was conclusive, and whethe " being placed on ~ r the returning officer eould in such a case refuse his vote? A /0 t u nquest•onably not. If the objection had been taken before''''. the reeisiug barrister it might have been good. but unless petition was presented against the return he doubted h any authority except that of a Committee of the w ether House of C toons could entertain the objection and strike him off the lull, seat respect to the returns moved for by the non. and Cal_ hat Member, he had not the slightest objection• -- V - returns be produced, anti if -the fees ,let Wer i ' m s'-' too exerbiiant, let them them be reduced. With . !. found Mr. Sebright, it was admitted that he vies an alien, respect to case, therefore. the Revising Barristerhad done , and it . a his what Was right. Mr. Sebright had voted when he was not it • i Tiossesaton of the , e go con leOrd irned. Go uld that Duke efore "isarY , satis ,assed t that Pri qoble isfac pie of ,y the .ed to n•hich we of o pted en 5 ,1 " .re n° 1 11 ° - as a li f i ce 0 Foyl e a di ? 5 all• Ije the ) 0 l ' 1% 0'