The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-20 00:00:00

Is there any difference in the weight of American and Baltic fir ? I believe the weight of the red pine is nearly equal to that of timber of the Baltic; the yellow pine'lighter. Does the American timber appear to have grown quicker than it grows on the shores of the Baltic, or the contrary? lam not able to answer that question. Could you furnish the committee with an account of the times when the timber used in the construction of the ships in 1795 and 1796 was received into the dock yards, and when the timber used in the construction of the ships in 1813 was received into the dock yards? I dare say we can. - [The witness was directed to furnish this information.] Can you state to the committee, from your own knowledge, that the timber used in 1813 was at all times prop er ly pil e d a f ter it was rece i ve d, a nd pl a c e d i n proper situations for seasoning ? I believe it was, agreeably to the usages of the service. Are the committee to understand that all the timber used in the construction of those ships in 1813 was received into the dock yards, and issued from thence? Yes. None of the timber, so piled, was within the reach of the spring tide ? No, I think not ; but all the timber of course was transported from the dock yards to the merchants yards, and of course floated across the river to the merchants yards ; those ships were built generally on the opposite side of the river, and the timber was floated from the dock yard at Deptford, Woolwich, or Chatham. Do you know whether it was piled carefully in a dry place in the merchants. yards, before it .was used in the merchants yards ? I cannot tell. Can you furnish the names of the contractors who built those ships ? I can. TT [The witness was directed to furnish this information..] Then, as far as respected that necessary to come for the stowage of the masts, the alteration , of the duties would make no difference•?—None. Is the Committee to understand, that you, are not acquainted with anydistinction in the qualities of timber, as shipped from Canada, and shipped from New Bruns.. wick and Nova Scotia ?—We have ever given the preference to the timber shipped from New Brunswick, but it is subject to the same disease; I think the timber from New Brunswick is preferable; but I am not sufficiently master of the sub ject to say which is from the one and which is from the other. It bears a better character ?—lt does. Luna, 12. die Februarii, 1821. The Right hon. THOMAS WALLACE in the chair. Sir Robert Seppings was called in, and examined. You are one of the surveyors of navy ?—I am. How long have you been connected with the naval department ?—Ever since 1782. Your attention has been officially directed to the construction of ships in the King's dock yards ?—Yes. In the course of the time that you have been so employed, your observation has been particularly directed to the different kinds of timber that are used in the dock yards ?—lt has. • You are therefore acquainted with the timber that is brought from the north of Europe, as well as that brought from America ?—Yes, I am. Are both kinds used in the dock yards ?—The timber of the growth of North America is not at this time used in the construction of ships, excepting for par titions or bulk-heads; also for masts, yards and bowsprits. Was it at any time used in the construction of ships in the planking ?—lt was, very generally I believe, from the year 1807. How long has it ceased to be so used ?—About five or six years, I should think. State the reasons why it has ceased to be so used ?—lt was from experience found to be very.subject to decay, particularly in generating fungi, which is the forerunner of dry rot. Is the fir from the north of Europe now used in the construction of ships ?—lt is, that-is to say in certain parts, not generally. • • In those parts to which fir was applied about the year 1807 ?—Not so gene rally, but since that period (1807) ships were built with American fir ; this took place in 1812 and 1813. You speak of King's ships ?—Yes, of the red and yellow pine, and the pitch pine. • Are shims now built with Baltic fir ?—We have lately built a frigate with Bal tic.. fir by way o f exper i ment , to try t h e comparative uurabuity of that and larch. What larch ?—Scotch larch from the Duke of Athol's estate. Have you had any opportunity of ascertaining whether ships built of Baltic fir are subject to the same defects as those you have attributed to the Canada timber? I believe in the year 1796 or thereabouts, there were a number of frigates built with Baltic fir,-and their average durability was eight years. In the years 1812 and 1813 there was a certain number of frigates built with the pine of North imerica, and their durability averaged about four years. In speaking of the North American timber, do you speak of that of. Canada, o r do you speak generally of all which is brought from North_America ?—I speak of that of Canada generally ; I include in my answer every description of fir and oak said to be of the growth of North America. Do you happen to have made any comparison, with a view of ascertaining the different qualities of fir brought from the different parts _of North America ? No, I have not -made any particular comparison between the timber of Canada 4 04 that of New Brunswick. Have you at any time made any experiments with a view to ascertaining the co mparative qualities of the Baltic and American timber, or do you give your an swer solely from the experience you, have had in shipbuilding ?—I give my answer of course from my experience ; in point of strength I have made com- Purism & What have been the results P—The yellow pine we find to be weaker than the Brittle timber ; the red pine possesses greater tenacity in the first instance, but tenacity has nothing to do with durability. Have you ever made any experiments, or has your observation been directed to the different species of fir timber brought from the north of Europe, and the com.- P s n'ative qualities of that brought from different countries of the north of Europe? es; I have made a comparison of the Riga fir with the Dantzic and the Memel fir. Be so good as to state, what the result of that comparison is ?—I should rank a certain description of Dantzic fir as possessing the greatest durability : the se cond Riga, the third Memel. \l'hat is the reason that in enumerating the timber from the north of Europe, You do not mention that which is grown in Sweden and Norway P—The reason is, that it is not of sufficient dimensions; it is not used in His Majesty's yards in consequence of its not being of sufficient scantlings. Is it used for spars or yards ?—Yes ; small spars, Then you mean, that it is not used in the construction of ships ?—Yes. As compared with these, hoW do you rank the American timber 2—l should rank the Am er i can timber for shipbuilding inferior to them all, from my positive e xperience. In speaking of the comparative durability of the different kinds of timber, do You include the comparative subjectness to dry rot ?—I spoke of the American timber being most prone to the growth of fungi, much more than any other tim ber that I am acquainted with. Have you in many instances found the Baltic timber subject to the dry rot at all ?—Oh yes, certainly : every description of timber is subject to the dry rot, if Put into a situation that is friendly to it. ; What partic u l ar situation do you allude to ? —ln the confined parts of th e p a ll4l , such as in the wake of the bread-room, the magazines, and such other speaWhere there is not a free circulation of air. k w hatother respect is the American timber inferior to the Baltic ?—I can f, () or no o th er respects , b ut i ts not possess i ng durability, in the same propor •• LL that the timber of the north of Europe does. N lll3 es the dry rot apply to the plankin g ?—Y es ; in th e oa k o f t h e growt h o f ° rth America particularly, I have seen a four-inch plank of American oak on the bottom of a ship, nearly decomposed to its surface. pin the account you have delivered in, there are several ships built with red ile, the a verage lasting of which appears to h ave b ee n a b ou t f our y ears ?—Y es ; think that was the extent of it. bid all those ships come under your observation ?—Yes ; I believe I may say aeae r u y. you superintend the building of any of them ?—Yes, I did, by occasional ‘risit s . tb_What proportion of them were built in the King's yards and what in the mer firs' yards ?—None of the ships built with American pine were built in the g's yards, but the government provided the materials. The materials therefore came under your immediate observation ?—Yes, the gov ernment supplied the timber. of ,: t Yas the timber supplied by the government for the construction of those ships, to Lne same descripti on an d i n t h e same state i n w hi c h i t would have been applied 4 t he construction of ship s i n t h e Ki ng ' s d oc k yards ?!—Certainly, of the same e scription ; it was of the best quality of the kind. t , bo you conceive, that the ships were as well built in the merchants' yards as t hey would have bee in the King's dock yards ?—I think in some instances that 'ie3r were equally son but ships at that time were not built with the same care as they 4 are at present, namely, they were exposed to the vicissitudes of the weather, l id now they are excluded from them in the King's yards. the t appears that there were se ve nt een s hip s built in the year 1813 ; ;were not b u .Y built upon a sudden emergency, and in a great hurry ?—Yes, they were on an emergency ; that is always the case with fir ships. Iyh fas that the case with the ships built in 1798, and 1804, 1805, a nd 1806, i eh appear to have been built in the King's yards P—l cannot answer that si,. 4ea tion exactly, the period i s so l ong ago; b ut I can , b y referring to documents, gliply the period when each ship was commenced, and when she was finished. T [The witness was directed to furnish this information.] p r 's it not genera lly the case, that ships built in the merchants' y a rd s h a ve aved less durable than those which have been turned cut of the King's yards ? jenerally speaking, they • are. k in you reason t o think that those ships, if they had been turned out of the tOUiit S yardp, would have lasted longer than they appear to have done, by the ac w• Which has been delivered in ?—No, Ido not believe that their durability °ll4 l ha ve b een muc h i ncreased. th e ,l„ hen you attribute their having lasted so short a time to the wood with which 14 w ere constructed, and to th a t on ly ?—Y es , t o th a t cause only. a f ,,, you recollect whether the wood with which they were constructed had un- Cgone th s e seasoning which wood applied to the construction of ships usually e Leve before it was employ e d some instances the timber had been re ce i ve d, I R the some years (two or three) before it was applied for the purpose of bad frigates. liev e an you point out the ships that were built with that seasoned timber ?—I be [The witness was directed to furnish this information.] to i ere there not several line of battle ships broken up, or obliged to undergo a tL e si derable repair during the l as t war , i n c o n sequence o f th e d r y ro t ?—Y es , hh: e Were ships that were built both in the King's and merchants' yards, that 2, 1 ) , r few years service required very considerable repair, after a comparatively servic 11 e• s to ere those ships built of English or Foreign tamper ?—Built of English N ° , what do you attribute ships built of En g li s h ti m b er h av i ng b een so parti tSariY subject to the dry rot?—ln many instances they were ships built in great exposed during their building to the vicissitudes of the weather, and the 4 1\ , °(1 , 11 5tion of unseasoned materials with seasone d ; i t a l so f requent l y arose f rom t4),1 s hips being sent into hot climates and thereby deprived of what is techni c the second caulking, so highly necessary to new ships. tho, termed any of the same circum s t ances h ave b een t h e cause of the dry rot among '•V r e frigates built of the American timber ?—Th ose causes, no doubt, in some tiq 5 e facilitated their decay ; but the frigates that were built of the timber of 4 ,. t lorth of Europe, were equally exposed to those causes. 14 1 4t ?ii have stated as one of the ca uses o f the dry rot in the line of battle ships, h at in the building they were exposed to the vicissitudes of the weather ; was not formerly the case with all ships that were built, that they were exposed for V: years in the dock yards to the vicissitudes of the weather ?—They were so. t o , 4 . ere there frequent instances of the dry rot at that time ?—I believe the dry 3 0 : was always known in the navy from its earliest period, more or less ; but a f used wax, and the trying services which our fleet has had to contend with, have 4 - °„ o ed the defects of ships to be examined into considerably more than they were *Let late war periods ; but I might say, if we had examined ships at an early part of war as we have done within the last tenyears, we should have had very f ew ships to have fitted out a fleet with, for although a ship may have many de eCtg, she still is sea -worthy. Has any instance occurred, of a frigate being built entirely in the king's yards of Americantimber ? None, that lam aware of : it will be right to say, though we call them fir frigates, there is a proportion of oak. You say, that the American pine timber is*Reculiarly subject to the dry rot ; slo you consider the American oak so ? Yes ; the North American oak I have seen equally so. Were not the contractors for building the frigates in the merchants yards obliged to furnish them within a limited period ? They were. Was not that period much shorter than the time that is. generally allowed for building frigates in the king's yards ? The period for building ships in the mer chants yards is generally shorter than that at which the same work is performed in the king's 'yards ; they have no limited time in the king's yards, in the merchants yards they have. Is not that rapid building unfavourable to the durability of the timber ? Rapid building with unseasoned materials is very unfavourable to the durability of the ship ; but rapid building with seasoned timber is favourable to the durability of the ship ; if the ship be exposed. Is timber that has been floated up the river to the merchants yards in a fit state to be immediately used in the construction of frigates ? To use it immediately would be very improper ; but timber must undergo a change in form, by being sawn or hewn, which takes up some time, before it can be introduced into a ship. DO you know that part of that timber, so employed in building those frigates, was not left upon the mud, in situations where it was occasionally overflowed in spring tides ? It is probable it was ; but I cannot speak to that. What is the shortest period within your experience, that ships built of English oak have been found subject to the dry rot? I have known them in so short a period as two years; in some instances, in less time. Do you think that English oak, used in the construction of those frigates built of fir, being so subject to dry rot within the period of two years, it might not have affected the fir, in place of the fir affecting the oak ? No ; I consider that the oak was injured by the fir, as much of the oak timber was good when it was taken out. Is it the practice in the navy to use the fir plank of Canada for deck plank ? In some few instances the red pipe has been 'applied. In such instances, has it been found subject to dry rot, or to premature decay from other causes ? It has, more so than the Prussian deals. Is it the practice, in the king's yards, at all times to keep their fir timber piled dry in the yards, or to keep it afloat? The timber which is applied to the con struction of ships is generally kept dry ; that which is appropriated for masts is immersed in the water. • Has the dry rot been found to exist in those French and Spanish prizes (ships of war) that have been captured and afterwards broken up in our dock yards ? Yes; I have seen the dry rot in a very great degree in many French ships, but not to so great .a degree in Spanish ships; they have been built chiefly in South America, I believe. In those instances did those 'ships appear to be of great age, or otherwise ? The ships I have seen it to the greatest extent in, were the Hercule and the Desiree, and many other small vessels ; I have seen it as bad as in any English ships. Have you had occasion to remark, that the yellow pine of North America is in general cleaner and freer from knots than the pine of the Baltic ? Yes, con siderably so ; for which reason we generally apply it for carved work, for ships heads and sterns. You have stated, that you have known of instances, of a ship, built of English oak contracting the dry rot in two years ; can you name the ship ? I think I can; the Foudroyant and the Bulwark; I name these two, in the king's yards; I could mention others in the merchants yards also. Is there not a quantity, of fir timber always used in what 'is called an oak-built ship ? Yes, there is. In those . two ships, was the fir timber Canadian or Baltic ? It is not absolutely in the fabric of the ship that the fir thnber is used. Was any Canadian fir used in those two ships ? I cannot say ; I should sup pose not; if there had, I do not think it would have at all injured the ship where it is applied. To what do you attribute the early appearance of the dry rot? I have stated the causes before, when I referred to a ship being built in haste and sent to hot climates, and so on. You say that Canadian timber is still used in the yards for large masts, yards, and bowsprits ? It is. Can you inform the committee what is the durability of Canadian timber when used for those purposes, as cOmpared• with Baltic timber ? That will depend much upon the climate in which the ship served ; if in a hot climate, the durability of the American timber, particularly the yellow pine,'would be very short; if in a cold climate, it would be prolon ge d. Upon the hole, is the Canadian timber in masts as durable as the Baltic ? Certainly not. Why do you use it, if it is not so durable ? Mast timber of proper dimensions is not to be procured, I believe, from any other part of the world. Is it likely, that in any event, except that of absolute necessity, any fir frigate shall again be built of American or foreign fir timber ? I should Suppose not. Is the time necessarily occupied in the conversion of the timber sufficient to remove the effect of any moisture which the timber may have imbibed, either by being floated from the place where it was piled into the merchants yards, or from being exposed on the mud at high tides? I should suppose, if the timber is re duced, which is generally the case, in its dimensions, that little of the wet which it receives by being transported can be injurious to the durability of the timber, because, although the timber. is floated, I do not apprehend the water can have penetrated further than a quarter of an inch. Were the ships that were built in 1796, of Baltic fir, constructed in the mer chants yards or the king's yards ? In the king's yards. - Have you ever seen, yourself, the effect of placing a piece of American timber in contact with a piece of well-seasoned European timber ? Oh yes, many times. What has that effect been ? 1t has been to inoculate it with the disease. Yoit mean, that it has communicated the dry rot ? It has.' I have seen when a piece of American timber has been added to another, to fashion it out, termed an eaking, which has been of American oak, where fungus has commenced upon it, and has considerably injured the piece that it was in contact with. I have never seen 'fir so applied. You speak of English oak, and American ? Yes. Had they been equally well seasoned ? I imagine so. Are you aware that the &timber coming.from Canada is improved in quality within the last few years, from the period at which they cut it, or from the dif ferent manner in Which it is sent over? No, lam not aware of that. You are not aware of the contrary ? No, lam not. The timber is very well manufactured in point of shape, and so - on. Do you suppose that any mode of preparing or manufacturing the timber could obviate the existing objections to its quality ? No, lam afraid not. You may prolong the durability of bad timber, but I am afraid you cannot make it equal to the other. What, in 'your opinion, are the relative qualities of American and English oak for the purposes of ship-building ? I consider the English oak as superior to the American, as the Baltic fir is to the fir of that country. The American oak is very bad ; I think, of the two, the oak is worse than the fir. HOW would you state the result of the experiment between live oak and British oak ? I should think live oak better than British oak. Has it been used in our dock yards ? No, it has not been ; I have seen ships that have been built with it. . Can you furnish to the committee the result of the different experiments which you state to have been made with respect to the strength and tenacity of American and Baltic pine and oak timber? I will furnish the information. Is not the proportion of fir timber used in the construction of a ship compared with oak timber very small ? Very small ; it being used only for the flats or flooring of the upper and quarter decks, half beams, &c. You stated, that there were scme parts of a ship, the masts, the bowsprit, and other parts, for which you conceive the American fir to be necessary? Yes, ab solutely necessary, as the materials cannot be obtained of sufficient dimensions from any other part of the world that I am aware of. Does the same necessity apply to the large description of our merchant ships ? I should suppose so. Do you at know what the quantity of timber imported for those purposes is? or can you form any conjecture upon that point? 1 have not the means of an swering that question. But whatever it is, no reduction or alteration of duties can affect the importation of timber for those purposes ? Certainly not; that is to say, the timber must be procured. Have you had no experience of the durability of North American timber when used in the construction of buildings ? No, I have not. Would it be possible for ships to come loaded with those large masts, to which you have referred, without bringing smaller descriptions of wood by way of stowing their cargoes ? Certainly not ; for which reason we generally make our contracts so as to introduce a small proportion of smaller articles, for the sake of the stowage of the larger. You state, that whatever might be the state of the duties, the timbers for , the masts must necessarily come ? Certainly. And that if the timber for the masts come, a certain quantity of smaller timber must come with it ? Yes, that has been the usage always. . . // „._, J7 S), T r/ T i PPL IIA)VIE N. , P I / 7 r g I I FIE SUN , THIS DAY• -• r . o BE DELIVERED G_RATIS. MINUTES OF- EVIDENCE Taken before the Select Committee appointed to consider of the means of maintaining and improving the FOREIGN TRAD E of the C oun t ry; an d t o report their Opinion and Observations thereon to the House. e r) 7. Was the situation damp and confined ? Not particularly so. With what timber did you replace those joists? I put in oak, for the purpose of being doubly secure; that is not so liable to the dry rot, certainly. Had you used Baltic fir for similar purposes, in the same situation ? I had, in the same house, in a situation where it was equally exposed to damp, and there was no dry rot. 'How many years has the oak stood with which you replaced the Canada tim, ber ? About six or eight years ; that is perfect. Have you any reakon to believe it has taken the dry rot ? It has not. In very unfavourable situations, oak will take the dry rot ? Yes, in very un favourable situations, but not so soon as fir. Did you use American fir joists on the first floor, in your own house ? No, I did not. Have you reason to believe that American fir, in that situation, would have been affected with• the dry rot ? I have never tried the experiment, and cannot speak to it. You have stated, that you made this experiment seven or eight years ago ? Yes. Are you aware how long the pine timber had been seasoned that you placed in that situation ? No, it was in the timber yard ; it had been recently imported. ' You state, that the instance where you saw th e d ry rot, i n the course of a year, was in two lanks laid together, in a timber yard ; in your timber yard there is a great quantity•of•Canada plank and deal so placed ? Yes. Have you found that generally the case ? We do not place them so, generally ; lately they have been so placed as to admit of air between them. Do you know of more than one instance ? Yes ; it was a report of my clerk lately, that they were obliged to move some deals that had been placed for six months ; there was a kind of mildew. You deal very considerably' in Canada timber, as a timber merchant ? Yes; I clo. I Do not you find mildew and symptoms of dry rot appear where Baltic planks are laid together in the same manner ? No, we do not. Is not the American yellow pine in general much cleaner and freer from knots than the fir of the Baltic ? Yes, it is cleaner, and of larger dimensions,' and on that account it is preferred for some purposes. Have you any experience of North American timber being used in house building for a period of ten or twelve years, which yOu have found either subject to dry rot, Or perfectly free from it? No, I have not ; there has been an opinion against this timber, which has prevented its being used by all professional men in public works. You state that Baltic deals are generally twenty per cent. inferior to Norway deals, how much then do you consider Canada deals inferior to the Baltic deals ?, Any opinion must be very speculative ; the present market price would be the best guide for that; according to the present market price it would probably be from thirty to forty per cent. You would estimate the difference in value between Norway 'deals and Canada deals at about fifty per cent ? Yes ; lam speaking now very generally, for, as I said before, -I have attended very little latterly personally to the timber concern ; the relative prices in the market at this time would be the best guide for that in formation. • As Canada deals are used for other purposes than building, and for some pur poses are even of a superior value, is not the difference of value therefore still greater in favour of the Baltic seals, when used simply for the purposes of build ing? There would be a difference ; but upon the scale in which lam speaking, I could hardly make that distinction. • Is not the North American timber equally suitable for all the ordinary purposes of house building, where it is not subject to close confinement, such as floors, skirtings, mouldings, and doors, window-shutters, and other purposes ? For some of those purposes 1 think it is, such as mouldings; for floors it is not so durable; for doors and window-shutters I never tried it ; I think it might where it was not attached to the wall ; in those cases where the air gets round it, it may be equally good, but I have had no experience to justify my observation. Do you think that the consumption of foreign timber in this country has been materially diminished by the existing duties ?"' No, I should not think it was. If the duty on foreign timber was not more than a moiety of what it is, would not the quantity consumed be greater ? I should think there would be very little difference in that respect. Has your importation of timber from the Baltic been considerably diminished since the imposition of the duties ? I should think nor; but I beg to refer to my partner for the particulars. [Adjourned to to-morrow at 12 o'clock.l Midis, 13 die Fcbriuirii, 1821 ! The Right Hon. THOMAS WALLACE in the chair. Mr. John, White was called in, and examined. You arc engaged in the timber trade? To a very considerable extent. Are you engaged in it in all its branches ? In all its branches. . Do you import timber both from the north of Europe and front America? I do not import it from America. But you are acquainted with the wood that is brought from Afnerica ? Per. fecily, I believe. You have been engaged in a course of some experiments, to ascertain the strength and value of different species of wood ? I have been so for the last two or three years. Have the goodness to state the result of those experiments ? think a short extract of the experiments which I have made, will probably give that informa dory, Mr. Lack wrote me a note, saying it was possible I might'be. called upcin for the information. The witness read the statement as follows : " Results of experiments on the stiffness and strengths of various peci mens of wood. The trials were made upon pieces carefully selected as to quality and grain, and were in substance two feet long, one inch square; they were all front split portions of timber. The order of stiftbess was, No. 1. Long sound timber, bent half an in c h ) in the middle, 26 by - - 5 • 1 lbs. avoirdupois. 2. Christiana white spruce fir - 261 3. English oak, young wood; suppose 60 Z 237 years; from King's Langley, Herts 5 4. American pine yellow or soft ; from t 23 Quebec - - - - 5. Riga oak (commonly called wainscot) 233 6. White spruce from Quebec - - 180 7. English oak from Godalmin, suppo se ) 103 200 years ; old timber The order of strength, as ascertained by their being broken by the applicatiQii of weight, was, 1. English oak, King's Langley - - 482 lbs. avoirdupois. 2. Long sound yellow fir - - 396 3. Riga oak (wainscot) - - - 357 4. Christiana white spruce - - - 343 5. American pine, from Quebec - - 329 6. 'White spruce fir from Quebec - 285 7. English oak, from Godalmin - - 218 Other trials of strength were as foll ows : _ 1. .Alice Holt forest, full grown timber No.l 455 lbs. avoirdupois. 2. Dantzic.fir, yellow 7 7 435 3. Alice Holt forest,full grown timber, N 0.2 405 4. Christiana yellow fir - - 7 ' 370 5. Arehangel, ditto - - - - 330." The only two descriptions of American fir to which you applied your experi ments, were the yellow and the white pine of Canada ? Yes. Those experiments applied to the strength of the different kinds of wood ? To their strength and flexibility. Can you speak at all to the durability of different kinds of wood ? I think I can. State your opinion of the durability of the different kinds of timber hrought from the north of Europe, and brought from America ; first of the fir ? In general use, I have no doubt that Norway timber is the most durable, because after many years, it does not part with its resinous particles. I consider that American soft or yellow pine is the most durable of the A merican firs ; [have known it last when exposed to the action of the sun and weather, for a great period, by the side of Norway timber, with equal effect,•fully exposed to wind and rain ; if painted, it does not stand at all so well. Are you acquainted with the red pine and the pitch pine of America ? lam acquainted with both. Have you reason to think they are less durable than the pine you have referred to? I think so. I have sonic knowledge indeed of the fact. I remember my father supplying to the Hampstead water company's ponds at Highgate, about eight-and -twenty years ago, the campshottins which was taken down last year ; it was perished; and I have seen soft pine which does not appear to me so much affected as the pitch pine was I have not known the red pine for any thing like the number of years that I have known the pitch pine. The comparison you have hitherto made has been on wood placed in situations where it was exposed to the wind and weather ; are you able to make a compari son between the durability of the American and northern fir placed in closer siftia . tions in buildings? 1 am. State what the result of that is ? I supplied myself to a warehouse in the city some of the most beautiful red pine that there ever was ; it was placed in a green wall; but two years afterwards the green wall had destroyed all its effects. I speak of the red pine of Canada; fungus had grown out of it, and all the strength of the wood was destroyed. Was it the end of the beam that was so destroyed ? Yes, the end of the beam, which came against the green wall. Have you seen fir brought from the north of Europe placed in the same situa tion ? I have. What was the appearance that exhibited ? Ido not believe it would have beep affected in such a situation ; I have never seen it affected so. Have you ever seen the yellow pine you are speaking of in that situation ? f have. What was the state of that ? That has gone also. Equally soon ? In a building of my own in Bryitnstone-square in a shorter period ; it was not above a year and a half. Are the committee to infer from this, that you conceive the American timber to be much more liable to the dry rot than that which is brought from the northern parts of Europe ? In damp and close situations, certainly so. Being a timber merchant to a considerable extent, can you speak to the pur poses to which different kinds of timber are applied ? I think I can. State to what purposes in this country the different descriptions of fir timber are Mr. Alexander Copland, called in ; and examined. In .what business ate you engaged ?—I have been until recently a timber mer chant and builder ; I have lately retired from the latter branch of business. How long did you continue a builder ?—About six or eight and twenty years. In that time your observation has been directed to the different kinds of timber used in the construction of houses ?,—Yes, it has. Have you been in the habit of using the fir timber brought from the north of Europe, and also that brought from North America ?—I have used a very large quantity from the north of Europe, but only a small quantity of the American. Have you used sufficient to ascertain, to your own satisfaction, the comparative value of those two descriptions of timber in the construction of houses ?—I can judge more extensively of the timber from the north of Europe than I could of that from ,Americaahaving used but a very small quantity of that in building. What has been, your reason for having used so small a quantity of the American timber?—The American timber h as no t b een so generally introduced Until the latter years, at which time I was not carrying on works to that great extent, and I should not have felt myself justified in using American timber, particularly in public buildings, until it had been proved by experiment that the quality was equal to that brought from the - north of Europe. : Then it was not from any experience you had had of the American timber not being equally good, but from a doubt upon the subject, that you did not avail your self :of it ?—I have seen American timber used, and have used a small portion my self,:whml2Tpeared to be ver y su bj ect to t h e d ry rot ; and I have also seen, in instanees w ere the American deals have been laid in contact with each other,.that they have a great tendency towards encouraging the growth of The dry rot. Are you enabled to compare the American timber in 'that respect with the tim ber from the Baltic ?—Only in the particular instances I have named. In the use of the Baltic timber, have you observed that it was subject in the same manner to the dry rot ?—I have not found it so, except in situations where it has been subjected to a damp or stagnant atmosphere, and I have, in those circum stances, seen th e B a l t i c t i m b er also subject to the ' dry rot; but from what I have seen, I do not think it is so liable as the American. In the, cases in which you have observed the American timber to be so affected by the dry rot, was it placed in situations similar to those in' which you have de scribed the Baltic timber when affected with the dry rot to be placed ?—No ; I do not think the Baltic timber would have had the dry rot in the space of tithe in which the American timber I have spoken of had it in the same situation. Have you ever had an opportunity of observing the use of the American timber in contact with the Baltic ?—No I have not to my recollection ; in my fortner answer, I - spoke of the yellow pine. Is the yellow pine that which is imported into this country for common and in- ferior purposes ? It is, You have had great experience of the qualities of the Baltic timber ? I have. State to the Committee the result of any d:bservations you have made upon the different qu a liti es o f the Baltic timber, as brought from the different 'countries of the north of Europe ?—The superior timbers are drawn from the ports of Memel, Dantzic, and Riga ; that from NOrway is generally of a small dimension, although equal in quality ; Swedigh timber is also considered nearly equal in quality, but not of so large a dimensiOn in general ; for some purposes Dantzic is preferred, it being of larger dimensions ; Riga perhaps is considered the next in point of su periority, and Memel the next to' that. Have you had an opportunity of observing the comparative liability of the Baltic and the American deals to the disease of the dry rot ?—I have seen many in stances similar to what I have stated, the American deals being placed close to each other, that the dry rot would be created in the course of a twelvemonth ; and I have also seen Norway d&.als placed in a similar situation for eight or ten years, that have shown no such symptom. • - Do you mean-that in both cases the deals have been equally well seasoned?— Yes, both recently imported : I do not speak from experience in buildings, for I have never used the American myself; I have seen it put into buildings, but I have not known the result. In what situations did you observe deals, where the dry rot was, placed Lying in piles in the timber yard. Are you aware that the quantity of deal shipped from the North American co lonies is very small have attended to the concern as a timber merchant so little for the last two or three years, that I cannot speak to particulars or to prices, and I would beg to refer to my partner; I have understood, latterly, the importa tion from North America has been very c,onsiderable. ' Have they not come for the purposes of stow - age only ?—No ; numbers of car,- goes have groe. Do you/ consider the inferiority of the American to the Baltic timber as ap-' plicable to timber as well as to deals ?—Yes, it is applicable particularly to tim ber, the inferiority of the yellow pine. • As much in timber as in deals?—Yes, I should think more so in timber than in deals, because deals are not used in contact with walls or under floors, in damp situations. Do yin; see any objection, in your branch of trade, to making the duties on the Norway deals equivalent to the duties on the Prussian and Russian deals, by regu lating the &ides on the whole by the cubic measurement?—l should see no objec tion to that mode of fixing the duty, provided a scale were made in favour of those countries where the qualities of the timber are not similar ; for instance, I conceive that the Russian deals would not sell in the market, if Norway deals were at the same price; there would also be a considerable difference in the value between Norway and Swedish and Prusisian deals in favour of the Norway ; therefore, althcugh the duty might be laid on the cubical contents, it might be proper to vary it in favour of the different countries. You conceive, therefor, the Norway deals to be the most valuable ?—Yes, I do. Can you state to the Committee what difference it would be necessary to make in the duty for the purpose of bringing the Norway deal upon an equality with the deals of Prussia and Russia 7—Generally speaking, should think the Prussian and Russian, deals, perhaps, - night be worth one-fifthl less than those of Norway. Should you, as a builder, consider the Norway deal to be twenty per cent. better than the Russian and Prussian deals ?—Yes, about that. What advantage do you suppose there would be in laying a tax, so as to induce the people of this country to buy the worst timber in preference to the better ? That is a political question I cannot answer. Is the difference between the American fir timber and European fir timber di stinguishable to the common eye when worked up ?—A professional man would know the difference; but I do not think any gentleman who had not professional knowledge, would. • Do you not conceive that great deception is frequently practised upon persons who have not professional skill, in the value of the timber, by the use of the in ferior instead of the- better ? I think it very probable that it may be so. Do you not think, that in consequence of the encouragement that has been given by the legislature to American over European timber, the buildings that have been generally erected in London within the last four or five years, are much less solid than the buildings of former times ?—Where the American timber has been used, I conceive they would be very inferior to those where the timber from the north of Europe has been made use of, from the circumstance of their being more liable to the dry rot. Do you not suppose that the same objection applies to the new buildings throughout the three kingdoms in the same period ? Yes, as being more subject tb the dry rot ; a great deal of timber of course is used for other purposes, than building, for which it might answer. In the new buildings, constructed within the period mentioned, have not peculiar precautions been taken to preserve the timber from the dry rot, by admitting the air ?—I think if that were done, it might have a good effect, but I am not aware of it ; I never used any American timber in houses myself; I do not know whe ther the precaution has been made use of in other instances. Do you know, either as a timber-merchant or a builder, the comparative value between the fir brought from the different ports of North America, from the United States, the province of Canada, and that of New Brunswick ?—I cannot speak very correctly upon that point. As far as your experience goes, you consider the American timber as very infe rior to the Baltic 2—Yes ; except in the instance which I have particularized be fore, which is that of the pitch pine, of which a very small part comes to this country; and the red pine, which f have had no experience in using, but which' appears tolbe very fine in quality. Are you an importer ?—Yes ; we import timber from the north of Europe, not from America. Do you know whether the red pine and the pitch pine do not come principally from the United States ?—I believe they do. lndependant of its use in buiding, is not the American fir used for a great many of the inferior purposes ?—Yes, to a considerable extent, I should think. What proportion do you conceive that wood used in those purposes bears to the general consumption of wood in the country ?—lt is difficult to answer that, ex cept in a very general manner; the deals would be nearly altogether used for those purposes I should think ; of the timber, probably one-third for such purposes. Ilas the American timber any particular advantages, as applicable to those pur poses, besides its cheapness ?—lt has some advantages in particular instances ; such as for picture-frame carving where soft wood is required, and packing cases where great width is required. Then supposing an alteration to take place in the duties, so that both com modities are brought into the market at the same expense of freight and charges, do not you think that a considerable quantity of American timber would still be im ported and sold for those inferior purposes ?—I conceive very little in that case. Can you state any instance of houses built with American timber, in which the dry rot has broken out ?—I am sorry to say I put some of it into my own house, and it had the dry rot in a year and a half ; I had it cut out immediately. Do yOu know that one of the wings of St. Bartholomew's Hospital, which was built with the best Baltic timber, has been lately found so much affected with the dry rot, that it was obliged to undergo a very thorough repair ?—I am not aware of circumstance. '• Can you state .to the Committee for what purpose, in the building your own house, the American ti m b er was use d, w hi c h y ou found decayed through dry rot ?—For joists, made use of on the ground floor, where there were cellars beneath it.