The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-24 00:00:00

TEE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEARIDARY . 4, 1844. itnhteeoNdoehd t l( to 'ord on the ercasion which I alluded, - that ynere mitted, she exereie• of ilia , p,•lvilege of defence, to give vent ropose some measure of conciliation—and, first,' I to tho- s feelings. Yet Imu -t rue eriiiit those feelings to be understa n d that 3uu intend to ' , repose an enlargement of the mixed up in the consideration of the important matters of policy grant—Now, Ido not know whether you mean an enlarge- affectiug the interests of lreland.—( Hear, hear.) Upon all ment of the grant to Maynooth, or of the grant for the pur- that part which relates to public policy--to the question of . Poses of general education. , future legislation—l trust I shall address myself with that An Hoe. MEMBER.—For general education. temper, and moderation, and forbearance, which are becoming Mr. O'CONNELL—You then propose to increase the a subject of such immense magnitude. I hope, also, that in grant for general education. lam glad to find that it is so— defending myself from the charges brought against myself and You c annot educate the people too much.—( Cheers) You my colleagues, I will not forget that reserve with which all . may edu cate them too much for sour own purposes. You matters o f a personal nature, affecting the position of the gen „Ty educate th em so as to ma k e t h em turn against yourselves, tlemen who have been made the subject of criminal proceedings, tD our gre a t secur i ty i s i n t h e ignorance of the people.— require. If I transgress the rule I have laid down for myself, (Cheers and laughter.) You intend to increase the educa- it will be totally contrary to my intention. I wish to "on grant—l am glad to hear that such is your intention. j conduct the defence of the Government, with a per --(Hear, and cheers.) I will frankly t e ll y ou w h a t feet recollection of the position of the Hon. Gentleman ion ought to do to gain the people of Ireland. Well, who spoke last. Sir, I cannot be diverted from the question am next told th a t you intend to introduce for us the I raised by the Noble Lord by the speech of the Hon. Gentle- Catholic Charity Act—that you mean to extend to Ireland Mr. I man. I wish the Hon. Gentleman, instead of agitating the Lamb's Bill for regulating English Catholic charities, passions of his countrymen on the subject of repeal, would give nw You can not d o a greater m i sc hi e f to t h e C at h o li cs o f I re - I us an opportunity of meeting him i n argument , f or I s h ou ld not 'ld than t o i ntro d uce suc h a measure for them. Ido not have any doubts as to what might be th e resu lt. I b e g you obi than to th e Bill. I oug h t not to d o so, f or I i ntroduce d t h e I t o b e ar in mi n d w hat are th e arguments on w hi c h h e h as t hi s tn ea 'ure myself. I endeavoured, for two separate s essions, to night rested his appeal for a repeal of the union. What per carry it, but the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Oxford, version of history is necessary in order to vi n di ca t e the demand atterided every even i ng that it was upon the paper—he for repeal ? Says the Hon. Gentleman, 0 For eighteen years attended most determinedly, and at last he actually tired me up to the period of the union, Ireland had the happiness of an out. Having no day that I could appoint for it I was obliged independent Parliament." An independent Parliament!— t° give it up. I complained to the then Administration, what the Parliament that sat from 1782 to leoo an inde.. andthey appointed Mr. Lamb to bri n g i n the me as u r e, pendent Parliament, providing for the social k,happiness of it was carried. Now that At was a very those on whose interests it was to legislate !—( Hear, useful Act for England, but it is totally inap- hear.) Why, one of the complaints of the Hon. Gentleman lineable to Ireland. The statute of superstitions uses was himself to the legislative union was, that it was through cor never enacted in Ireland. The statute of Edward the Sixth ruption the Act of Union had been effected—(hear, hear)— / q r.' Passed only for this country, and it was merely a retrospec- that the rights and liberties of the people had been sacrificed to e Act ; but Lord Eldon determined that although the Act the corruption of the Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) And was as a retrospective Act, he would construe it as a declaratory the condition of the people really happy under that Parlia- Act, a n d h ence the Catholic charities in England were declared ' ment ? Wh at sa id M r. Grattan of i t ? L ong b e f ore 17 8 2 , if illegal ; but in Ireland that Act never passed. All cha- I remember right, he asked, What has your independent ' ' tab le trusts for Catholic purposes have always been recognised Legislature effected for you ? Has a Place Bill been passed ? h • Y a ll courts of law in Ireland. Twenty-five y ears a g o I h e ld Has a Pension Bill been passed ? No, said Mr. in trust a sum of 20/. annually for ever for the celebration of Grattan, we have got a Bill against Peers. We have ~,, l east for the dead. I show you then that there is not the got a Riot Act, we have got pensions without end, and we have - e ast occa s i on f or t hi s A c t i n I re l an d. Th e o ld S tatute o f got a profligate traffic in the sale of the peerage. That was lil ortmain never applied to the Catholic clergy of Ireland. W e Mr. Grattan's account of the virtue of that independent Par are, therefore, under the common law , and according to the 'lament and he said, what has been the effect of that ? It has comm on law trusts for charitable and religious purposes are not reduced Ireland to the condition of a province. Is it true, illeg a l . Th e A ct was necessary f or t h e C athol i c clergy of Eng- t h en , th at t h e con diti on o f th e peop l e o f I re l an d was th en rea ll y e a t. " , but it is totally inapplicable to Ireland. But I will tell you happy, or are all the statements at present of the physical con -"at you should do. You should make each Catholic Bishop dition of the city of Dublin, and of other cities, from the year a guns/ corporation, so as to enable him to take land—you may 1795 to 1800 mere fallacies or delusion. Look at the account l imit th e quant i ty, i f you p l ease, b ut you s h ou l d ena b le h i m t o of the trade of Ireland. Look at the actual diminuti on o f th e take land which might go to his successor without the interven- trade of the shipping interest of Ireland for the ten years that of heir s - a t-l aw or executors ; by so doing you pass an Act preceded the union. I will challenge the Hon. Gentleman to that um would be really useful for charitable purposes in Ireland ; prove the fact that Ireland was advancing in prosperity. 21,1 t th e Bill wh i ch you propose w i ll not do so. The next thing The policy pursued i n I re l an d d ur i ng t h e per i o d i nterven i ng eh I un d erstan d you i nten d to propose i s an extens i on o f b e t ween th e y e ars 1793 an d ISO O, was t h e cause o f t h e Rebel the. franchise, and, as I read it in the newspapers, lion of 1798, and all its terrible consequences.—( Cheers. ) i o n Propose the abolition of the necessity for payment of all • But I do say, that if the statement of the Hon. Gentleman be t a i aes, except poor-rates, borough -rates, and grand jury cess. true, he proved that the happiness of the people was quite °w, why is the necessity for the payment of grand jury cess i independent of the social institutions of the country ; but he be retained ? It is the most vexatious tax of any, and i s cannot deny this, that if the Parliament promoted the prove ,lected by officers who are now not appointed by, nor under rity of Ireland, that Parliament was returned by a small ma control of the Government.—(Cheeers.) These officers I ,purity of Protestants. That Parliament was composed of, ar e appoint e d bygrand ' the iury and are favourites of certain I elected entirely by Protestants, and during its existence, there g r and jury -m en . They are" responsible only to the grand jury was an Established Church in existence in Ireland. If the fluctuating body ; one set are appointed in April, another in Hon. Gentleman said that the social state of Ireland during ' Tu ne. They are changed four times a year. If you insist upon this period was almost perfect, he should recollect that the the payment of the grand jury cess, you will be creating that Roman Catholic was subject to great disabilities, Whi ch may b e ma d e a grea t ve xati o n to a p o liti ca l o pp onen t, that the Parliament was exclusively Protestant, and „ -4 „' You will not compel the payment of the grand jury cost, the Church in its full power.—( Cheers.) I leave to the s l ier will you prevent its payment by not making its payment Hon. Gentleman to choose either of those points—namely, that snake to the acquisition of the franchise. *You must also it was consistent with the interests of Ireland to uphold in its - " aa e regulations for insisting on _the residence of freemen— most exclusive, and as he would call most intolerant form, the alt should res id e , f or th ree mont h s bef ore an d th ree mon th s Established Church, and that still the disabilities of the Ca . a ' t er the registry, in the borough. If you insist tholics should be in full force; or that the Government had nn the residence of freemen, you will have made a been carried on with that Parliament existing between 1782 • ~. t" be Useful change. The county franchise, too, lam told, and 1800, through the instrumentality of corruption -5/01)., he altered. Now I speak in no disparagement of the (Cheers)—that the social condition of Ireland was this Lord when I say that I have no confidence in him on not a happy one, and that that Parliament did not subject. His measure would bring about the extinction promote, nor was calculated to promote, the peace and welfare t▪ he county franchise in Ireland. You should give us the of the people. I say, Ido think that the Hon. Gentleman annihilate interest franchise. The solvent test franchise would would better have consulted the interests of his country, and bring the county constituency of Ireland. If y o u adopt that course which would be most conducive to his own D r ;'ng in a Bill for regulating the county franchise, you should fame, if he would give us an opportunity of hearing and ex c.." us every facility for acquiring it.—( Hear.) There i s no t amining those statements, and counteracting these arguments, man in Ireland who could obtain the franchise under the sol- instead of inflaming the passions of the ignorant by those mis the'• tenant test. Ireland is asp poor country, and if you doe an y- statements which he ventures to make in the y face of a British y g You should do it generouy, and do it at once.—( Chers. ) public.--( Cheers. ) I shall now address mself to another f ntt should give us a franchise equally potential with th e portion of the debate. I shall address myself to the motion of nsilehise in England, so as to have a constituency of the Irish the Noble Lord the Member for London, anti Ido say that I Zninties e qua l in proport i on to th e popu l at i on o f t h at o f t h e think he will admit that it is a motion exclusively and strictly nglish counties. Recollect, too, that a man having 51. a year deserving the name of a party motion—( Tremendous cheers • i:. l , l J e land is as independent as a man with 10/. or Loa a y ea r from the Ministerial benches)—it is perfectly a motion in con se you l eg i s l a t e f or us j ust l y , I s h a ll h a il your formity with ancient precedent, and is a constitu , l i a/ sures with satisfaction ; but we must have no restriction of tional mode of testing the confidence in the Ministry. i f .' franchise.—(Cheers.) We will meet you cordially But that it is a party motion, I am sure n You will meet us cordially .—( Loud cheers .) An- the Noble Lord will himself admit. It is not a motion to in -jeer part of your plan relates to fixity of tenure. quire into the state of Ireland. The Noble Lord may have in w Your C omm i ss i on i s d o i ng grea t m i sc hi e f by un fi x i ng the tended to pursue this course, but I must say, that ho should n ot " all ' of the actual occupants. An idea has gone abroad that have mixed up any party consideration with the consideration of hose w h o h ave b een e j ecte d d ur i ng t h e l ast s i x years are t o the social state of Ireland. I should say , I w ill c h a ll enge your 70, re stored . It is a great misfortune that this idea should have conduct—l will put you on your trial—l will separate you f rom . ( 3 abro a d ; b ut such i s t h e case, an d t h e m i n d s o f t h e actua l the social state of Ireland. The Noble Lord did not take th a t a c ennant s are unsettled in consequence. Now you must act course, but he moved for a Committee of the whole House on t i.y e ditieusly—you must act rapidly, in whatever you intend to the state of Ireland, as if afraid of the possibility of the sue . m u l , I should propose that you should take the law of landlord cess of his motion, and as if he shrank from being compelled ~,_tenant as it was at the time of the union,. by repealing in that Committee to explain in detail his own views as to hilvt:ystatute on the subject which has been Passed since. The the course which should be pursued in Ireland. At the its t u i t,_ ords cannot complain, because you will give them the law moment he gave his notice he said I mean to move a resolution e on made it for themselves, but year after year since then condemnatory of the course pursued by her Majesty's Minis laoditorve been making the law more stringent is favour of the tors. I will make it impossible on account of its character to t eto. ° d so as to enable him to seize even the last growing po- adhere to that motion.—(Cheers from the Tory benches.) the If you restore the law to the state in which it was before With respect to the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for union the landlords cannot have any right to complain. Sunderland, I feel hound to state my conviction that I think it la nd lo wa in favour of landlords were generally enacted in Ire- is wholly free from party bias, and that he expressed his opinions lute n mg before they were enacted in this country. The sta- —much as I may differ from those opinions—in such a manner avossry for instance. which was not passed by the that I never was more convinced of their sincerity and manli pesnig,ehesh Pal - if:merit until the reign of George 11., was ness.—( Cheers.) But, certainly, I must say, that the Noble tSl ne ` e ° by the Irish Parliament in the reign of Lord the Member for London, in his speech, seemed wi th ,n Anne. But you have much more to do if you to me to be e n g age d i n th e so lution of some great ree n "° manifest a disposition to act fairly by Ireland. You problem in political fluxions.—(Cheers and laughter.) %li ne inquire into the financial arrangements made at the He seemed to me to be trying to obtain the maximum of cri readas•-(Cheers. )' Yon perhaps will not take the trouble to mination with the minimum of inconvenience to himself.— s oe..l i, o e documents which have been issued by the Repeal As- (Loud cheers.) I think I could extract from the spirit of the non ibis subject ; hut if you will get those who are Noble Lord's motion the idea, " onl remove the present Go .. y oo :?' e ou to read those documents, and to report en them to yernment and place me in their stead y —( Loud laughter) —and Peres!: will tell you that th . ere never was a greater . injustice if that were his meaning—because the Noble Lord certainly uni t c z ated than by the financial arr injustice b y a ll finan cia l ar- not he explain his views and policy with regard to Ireland, for at peo ge rnents being made here you will not satisfy the present he must say that he has said nothing which would compel P''s of Ireland until you do them financial justice. I will him, if in office, to adopt any course different from that pursued Y glan ce at corporation reform. Your corporation re- by the present Government ?—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) b:m...,Was insult, and not redress. You dissatisfied one party Did not the Noble Lord say if he could realise his plan he o ' l power from it, while you dissatisfied the other by would; divide the revenues of the Church, and give a portion font.LgivinT it the shadow of over. Give us corporation re- to the Catholics and Presbyterians? But as the object was most more."IAL to that which you gave to England ;we demand no remote, and as no chance of its realisation existed, in from t h e re atm afraid of the effects of the transfer of power case of his re-instalment to power, he was bound dominant i n those boroughsCetholic, the minority? That is past and gone—and even himself by no tangible engagement in respect to the in which the majority of the population is Church, or indeed of anything else.—( Hear, and cheers. ) tion.tphreorrtion of Protestants in the Town Council is I rejoice to see that the Noble Lord has not committed him .• greater than are entitled to in proportion to the popula- self to any measure which will tend, in the slightest degree, to • N ull All offices are equa ll y open to a ll , an d are b estowe d i n j ure th e E s t a bli s hed Church.—(Cheers and laughter.) sentej upon all. Th en with regard to absenteeism. Ab- With respect to the accusation thrown out against her Majesty's Ls !Sill is th e curse of Ireland. It ought to be punished Government, I think the Noble Lord might have shown less ah e f▪ lune. You oug h t to i mpose an a b sentee tax. Y ou h ave acr i mony,for cons i der i ng the expose d con di t i on i n w hi c h hi s own C s i'"Y to some extent d one i t b y your i ncome - tax. h ouse stoo d an d the b r i ttle mater i a l s o f w hi c h i t was compose d t is l Y, an a heavy tax upon t h e absentee landlord i n —remembering the Coercion Bill, anirthe Appropriation Clause, t d, so as to drive him back to attend to the interests Ido think the Noble Lord ought to have abstained from throw ,B,7e:retched serfs.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Stafford ing stones at his political opponents.— trifling laughter.) But he st ), lam cheered by an Irish landlord, and one of the the subject is too important to justify . The Noble sorouotriotirlish landlords. I will give you full and explicit in- Lord had made me, as the head of the Government, re for all useful purposes. But you must not peddle sponsible for everything. Amongst the many charges he _t_he wrongs of Ireland. You must not quack with them. made against me, was that I selected the present Lord Chan , 175 Zl e s: give us a radical cure. Recollect that Harwich with cellor merely on account of his hostility to Ireland.--( Hear.) 176 ) ,, t „ has two Members, and the county of Cork with The Noble Lord denied his talents—(Cheers)—he denied his has only two. The profligate corruption of the ho- claim to the appointment on account of the efficiency with bea r admitted at the beginning of the session, and the which he performed his public duties ; and undertaking to of the Hon. Member for Bath proved it.—( Hear, answer, not for the conduct of the act, but for the motives bie r • I now come to the Church. You have in Ireland a of other men, the Noble Lord declared it to be his opinion that arch, 'annected perfect hi erarc hy, unco nnected with the State, but I had selected Lord Ly n dh urst f or o ffi ce on account of his dep r i ve intimately with the people. Ido net ask you to hostility to the people of Ireland.—(Cheers from the Oppo- Wow, ' .anY loan of his vested interests. No man in Ireland sition, met hy counter cheers from the Ministerial side of Lent OOWinterfere with the interests of any Church incum- the House.) Nay, it was worse, that I had so disgraced ca se s living ; but you must, as statesmen, look to the myself as to' select for the highest office in the tq uaii r Ireland, and see that without giving religious law a man whose chief qualification was that he had used tole th. Y . , you cannot do us political justice. I have been expressions offensive to the people of Ireland.—( Hear. ) and ete '• You propose to give a salary to the Catholic bishops brought without the strongest and most confirmatory evi ,,..Yee h r gY• They dare not accept it. They would lose caste. dente to establish it. As I had been already in three admi- Zhe t . ae not money enough in your treasury to pay them. nistrations with that Noble and Learned Lord, in the year 1829, CathOou could give would excite but not satisfy them, and the and in the short government of 1834.—( Hear, hear.) In the not dis ° bishop s wou ld rather h ave seats anyw h ere t h at was year 1841, I was ca ll e d on t o f orm an Ad m i n i s t ra ti on ; an d d oes that I r i e Putable•than in Parliament. Do you mean to say the Noble Lord think that it would be just that I should have meet ,e, it were not for the Protestant Establish: said to Lord Lyndharst—" It is true that I have been twice lute y ou t t n, Protestant religion would not stand ? connected with you in office—it is true that at the time when t:rso na me that your religion would fail if there were not Catholic disabilities were removed, I asked for your assistance ro te „_ Paid fo r i nstruct i ng ot h ers ? Oh !if th a t b e your i n m iti ga ti ng th e pre j u di ces o f th e H ouse o f L or d s , an d t h at I Jant reli g i on, what a tr i ump h to me as a R oman C a - rece i ve d your powerfu l support— b ut as you h ave use d a h asty W The Roman Catholic Church possessed all the expression, at which offence has been taken, I must ex illreater which your Church now has —or, at least, the elude you from office, in or d er t o court popul ar ity i n I re l an d." oe ation li s ortion o f i t. Th ere h ave , I b e li eve , b een certa i n —(Ch eers. ) But Lord Lyndhurst would say to I deny since the Reformation ; but the great mass that I used any such expres s i ons .—( Cheers.) I n a f or t n i g h t Ste gre at bulk of them-9991. out of every 1,000/. were after I used the words which were so misrepresented or misun ple, ~s j o Roman C a th o li cs . Y o u t o ok them f r om d e rstood, I w as t aun t e d by th ose w h o sa id t h ey h ear d me, w i th upon th at , hunted them into the wilds and fastnesses. It is a stating as a reason for n o t granting municipal corporation s t o Jon t h e set the same price upon the head of a wolf, and Ireland, that the people were aliens by descent—that they dif ;Olen %hoed of a priest. You did all you could against fered from us in language—that they considered us aliens 1 d has the Roman Catholic religion failed in Ireland from their soil, and desired to remove us from their .. I ;h a k s 4t , e o u f money . ? No. It never was . more triumphant. country. .My , answer was, I did not say so, nor anything re str archbishops, twenty-three bishops, fifty deans, senibling It.--(Cheers.) No expression fell from me which any th r s tr e h deaoo ea e „_ kt ns, and so me 2.000 p ar i s h p r i es t s , with t w o or person, not of we a k intellect or disp o sed to m i s r e p r es en t my flos s an 'tt: es to e ac h— an en ti re , un b ro k en hi erarc h y , i n as wor d s , cou ld h ave so distorted.—( Cheers.) When the Marquis tens, s , regular order, and as perfect as on the day before ot Lansdowne, either through kindness or in compliment, asked 11 ' 1 '4 h j ay i e l_l o l u . ascended the throne. You have despoiled them, me for an explanation, I stated to the House of Lords that I ere i n not the same faith in your Protestantism as I had nothing to explain, for I had said nothing like what was • y( : r ' o y k Catholicism ? Are you sincere in your faith? and imputed to me."—(Cheers. ) Now, Sir, no one could regret "'eh ed u c eneve that the scriptural truth, and the support more than myself—(unless it be Lord Lyndhurst)—that my t e s nee s to it anon, talents, anti literature give, are sufficient Noble and Learned Friend had used this hasty expressions h ese a Y,!mr Church ? Has it not the blessing of God if it be • which he did use.—( Hear, hear.) But, Sir, was I, six years rise iv`enurch, and what greater bulwark can it have than afterwards to say to him, " I cannot advise the Crown to ad tWillnotntYr then is the country to be divided.—( Hear.) Oh, Vance you to office, on account of those hasty expressions ?" o look nno _es.Pas! longer on this subject. But I implore you ( Hear, hear.) Sir, when I consider that Lord Lyndhurst th e Mon s [ r "it with the eyes of statesmen. Don't let us see raised himself from the position in which he was born, and the hi s we l e th. r4 is anomaly, that the Church of the wealthy has all manner in which the office of Lord Chancellor has been filled ol 'N tig of while the Church of the poor has nothing but the for the last eight or ten years—an office which has been occu i . cheering. )I go hack. What do you pied by such s Lord Eldon, Lord Brougham, Lord Cot ! :t fr.. f or Ireland ? lam afraid, whatever it be, it will tenhann Lord Plunket, and Sir Edward Sugden—when I con • I wish it were. Years enough have clap- skier the origin of those distinguished persons, and the eompa a the a gave eea c onnection commenced between the two countries rative ohscurity from which they raised themselves to the Rv e usted all t h e sources of mal i ce and ill -w ill , an d hi g h est civil situation next the Throne, I think this is the C h :. s ou religious rancour. It i 3 tune there proudest homage to the democratic principle of the British • e ed i atite s of it. The time is come when Constitution."---( Cheers.) It is the strongest practical contra tuen utthueghlatndlow embrace each other as men diction of the phrase quoted by an eminent member of the thra . erg, and when charity should be spread Roman Catholic party— Iri s h n ß i lout when the odious distinction between " Ilaud facile emergunt quorum virtutibus obstat th e . an C at Englishmen Englishmen —the odious distinction between Res augusta domi." set t , atn o li o ses eae relati one. and Protestant—distinctions odious in all (Cheers.) In this country there is no obstacle to the ele eih "ous eeshap except in the rivalry of purity and mutual vation of men of talent and wisdom, by the buoyancy of their g i (Chee rs be abolished, and justice shall be done to own character.—(Cheers.) It is true that I have had diffi • e Vtl m • culttes to contend with, which the Noblo Lord had not, in iAt k4 t e Blake and Sir R. Peel rose at the same time, looking to the claims of candidates for that high office. The i i e- i4 , is te;t u a n lie ide o r e ti s e uproar, and cries of " Order," from the Noble Lord had exhibited an example of great boldness and ' Li te sat &Z it o h • Sir V. Blake, after some little hesita- courage unparalleled since the " atrox animus Catonis." „ • EEL • b_ proceeded to address the House. He said—Sir, I—( Tory cheers, and laughter.) It was an example ,of virtue, not of meanness.—(Tory cheers.) The Noble Lord tied oot ' appalled by the duty which I have to discharge, if I had the good fortune to be connected with a man who had ever ( gre at been the faithful friend of the Whig party—the ornament of • k, w 7) h ear. , `Znsdence in the indulgence of this House.— the Irish bar—the friend of Grattan—Lord Plunket—a man not r risin g at The House, lam sure, will consider that in whose name would go down to posterity as one of the isin g • Close of the ninth night of this debate, lam greatest stars that ever shone in the sphere of Irish eminence. • )' a wn " th e Purpose • • —But, Sir, Lord Plunket was the son of an Irish Presbyterian slitioa the I of gratifying any personal wish of I minister, and he rose to the office of Lord Chancellor.— th e Y.-es am not rising for the purpose of any idle ee, ~c a 'or , hear.) la m • • • late en°ll duty rising in the performance of (Hear, hear.) He was advanced to that eminence by the , Noble Lord. But the Noble Lord challenges us with over whnit' which irepos towards the House, and towards the Govern- looking the claims of eminent Irishmen to office. Why, Sir, Sir' "--a . theesol,l%!pon• me, considering the situation in the Noble Lord had in office the most eminent man that ever de,_ at in t ,. igation of addressing the House. I know, . adorned the Irish bar ; and yet six weeks before the Noble t b. l . uti debat te tte . ity, „ e, conducted on each side with extraor- Lord retired from the Government . - 7 —(Cheers and counter • - Is no every argument has been exhausted, and that cheers.) The Noble Lord is sensitive of Irish feelings.—. • oth e ° Pliort unit (Tory cheers and laughter.) He is jealous of offences offered tc n r alt er . Yof adding anything novel. Yet I have 3 to n atiVe, if . to Ireland.—( A laugh.) He is jealous of promoting English istelh rne, t h am to discharge the duty which apper- men instead of Irish to office in Ireland. But he had broughtide fo a n to present in a connected, clear, and lin office the man who was the pride and boas of the Whig t r rn, my • • r avelli ns , before th e ' O pinions and views on the several matters party in Ireland ; and to that Irishman—to Lord Plunket, the e nlist 's "er that louse. I cannot do that effectually without Noble Lord signified that . it was expedient for him to . retire ; treoe4ar : 11 !r_efe se; it fi . ,eld which has been already exhausted. I and for what purpose ?—in order to gratify the vanity of a ord er 'r t Zto the patience and indulgence of the Scotchman.—( Cheers and laughter.) Ido not deny that he c ' I have another I may perform this duty —( Hear ! was an eminent man. Ido not deny that he was a distin ecused exer c i" yet greater dut toe ' rform. I I guished lawyer, of whom I wish to speak with all respect. on •G o that privilege which belon g sg to the I Still I must say that the Noble Lord, in the instance to which wh i Ottr d '''e Part o s th b efe nce. e Government, I stand here i I refer, superseded Lord Plunket to gratify the vanity of a el Posed to e 'Peak influenced by those feelings Scotchman—( Laughter and cheers)—for six weeks—for only Unjust and tat,e merit "sciousness of having been I six weeks' tenure of offtce.---( Cheers. ) Sir, if I were so ed imputation, I may be per- placed that I bad only the alternative to make such a choice, I would not retain effiee one hour. —( lienexed cheers.) Then the Noble Lord (ruined Lord Lyn urst. Who': was Isis next topic ? Why, th. Noble Loin woo stood forward as the re presentative of a great party, and came to the rescue of the country, occupied his time in raking into the kennels for the refuse of election dinners—(Cheers)—and quoted the speeches made at an election dinner in Canterburv—(Cheers)—in order to charge me with participating in and adopting the sentiments there expresied.—( Hear ) This would be a hard rule for public then.—(Hear, hear.') It is hard to make me respon sible for the expressions, either used by Mr. Bradshaw at Canterbury, or attributed to him.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") 'The Noble Lord is followed by a powerful party, confederated with him in promoting political objects—who will vote to night, naturally and justifiably, for the purpose of dis placing us, anti replacing us with him. But I would think it unjust to snake him responsible for everything uttered by every one of those who support him.—( lear.) It would be very unjust to charge the Noble Lord with the responsibility of everything that may be said at. Anti-Corn-law meetings. It would be unjust to charge him with participating in the senti ments of those who denounced the landlords as being cold blooded and selfish, and imensible to the sufferings of the people. --( Hear, hear.) Why, then, should he make me responsible for the after-dinner speeches et Canterbury ? But, Sir, suppose I have always disclaimed the statements attributed to my lion. Friend, why should I be held responsible for the very language which I have disclaimed? —( Hear, hear.) Is not this the tact, that when Mr. Wyse was appointed to an important office under the Government, I declared that I saw no objection to the appointment, as the Honourable Gentleman was in every respect quali fied by character and ability, and his being a Roman Catholic should not be an obstacle to his promotion. I consider this a most important matter, said the Noble Lord, speaking of the manner in which the Government behaved to Roman Catholics. Can you expect them to consent to receive favours from a Government whose supporters calumniated their priesthood? What the Noble Lord really wished to effect is to snake it impossible for Roman Catholics to accept favours from the present Government, and then to turn round and say, See what a gross injustice you have done to Roman Catholics, you have made twenty appointments, and yet not one of them has been filled by a Roman Catholic. You first strive to create an impedi ment by reviving unjust prejudices, and then you found an unjust accusation against the Government fer not making those appointments which you have deterred the Roman Catholics from accepting. I stated publicly what my opinions were on the subject of the position of the Roman Catholics, but I had been taunted by lion. Gentlemen who say, 0, these are fine declarations that you snake in debate, but you do not practice them. Allow me to say, Sir, that that is a matter of great difficulty.--(Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) I recognise those principles which place the Roman Catholics on an equality with their Protestant fellow-subjects. I say there should be no practical disability. I speak in respect of every office ; and I care not what prejudice these declarations may create against me. I say now, whilst in the possession of power, as I did when I was riot, that in every office to which Catholics are eligible there should be no impediment whatever to their appointment on the ground of religion. Since Parliament last met, there was only one office of a judicial nature vacant in Ireland ; it was an office in the Ecclesiastical Court ; and I apprehend that no one but a member of the Church of England ought to be appointed to that situation. The appointment was placed at my disposal by the Lord Primate. I stated to the Primate that I would accept the patronage, but that I should place in that situation the most eminent man at the bar, with out regard to anything except his professional qualifications. I believe, Sir, I acted according to my promise, in appointing one of the most eminent men at the Irish bar—Mr Keating. He vacated the office of sergeant, and another vacancy took place. ?low was that office filled? I wanted to destroy the prejudices which it has been attempted to create against the Government. 1 wanted to show to the Irish people that I did not participate in the opinions enunciated at election dinners, and that it was not in the heat of debate that I gaveutterance to those sentiments regarding the Irish Roman Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) I will take the liberty of reading to the House a letter which I wrote to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland on the subject of this ap pointment. It was not written in anticipation of this debate, but in the course of the last year. It was dated the 22d August, 1843. ( The Right Hon. Baronet then read extracts from his letter to Lord Dc Grey, in which he strongly recommended the appointment of such Roman Catholics as hail not joined in the agitation, or made themselves obnoxious to the dispensers of patronage. The letter proceeded to say that Roman Catholics ought to be appointed to those situations which they were qualified to fill, and, although preferable claims might be urged by Protestants, on the ground of their attachment to the Protestant Church, still that the rights of Roman Catholics should not be merely nominal, but that they should be placed on an equality of civil rights. The letter further observed, that all hough for every office which would be va cant for the next ten years Protestants might be found highly eligible, still if Roman Catholics were not appointed, they were practically disqualified, and what motive was held out .to them to refrain from joining in the present agitation if every office was closed against them. It might proably occur that fifty appointments would be made of Prot , stants who had preferable claims. But why had they preferable claims ? Because they had for a long series of years been excluded from the privileges of their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, and were constantly cherished by the Go vernment. The policy and the laws were changed, and they ought not to allow the effect of those former causes of preference to influence present appointments. The inferiority of Roman Catholics should not be shown by the ex clusive appointment of Protestants. Having read the extracts of which the above is the substance, the Right Hon. Baronet proceeded to say that Mr. Howley had been appointed to fill the vacant situation. ) There is not the slightest doubt that if we had not been anxious to appoint Roman Catholics, several professional men could be found in the four Courts professing the Protestant religion, and of equal legal ability.—( Hear, hear.) But did this appointment satisfy Hon. Gentlemen opposite? No, it did not ; far from it. Although Air. Howley was a Roman Catholic, the Governmont was attacked in the severest manner for ap pointing him. That paper, which is the organ of Hon. Mem bers opposite, makes the following observations on the an nouncement of the appointment of Mr. Howley. An lloN. AIEMBER—What paper? Sir R. PEEL—The Morning Chronicle. The Right Hon. Baronet then read an extract from an article in the Morning Chronicle, which stated that though the Government had made many absurd appointments, they had not made one so grossly improper as that of Mr. Howley. The explanation of the reason of this appointment was not difficult—it was only necessary to suppose a little shallow cunning and a little blockheadism on the part of the Cabinet, and the appointment was explained.— (A laugh.) This, to be sure, said the Right Hon. Baronet, was very encouraging to the Government to make Roman Ca tholic appointments. The Morning Chronicle proceeded to say that the appointment of Mr. Howley was an insult to the li beral bar of Ireland, and that it was quite elear that Sir Robert Peel's Government could not continue to govern that country. —( Renewed laughter.) However, Mr. Howley had the moral courage to retain his appointment to the sergeantcy, notwith standing the denunciations of the Noble Lord and the organ which represented his party. How had the appointment of that gentleman been received by the gentlemen of the county of Tipperary, in which Mr. Howley was assistant-barrister ? An address was presented to him, signed by 105 magistrates of that county, congratulating him on his appointment, and expressive of a deep sense of gratitude for the admirable manner in which he had discharged the duties of assistant-barrister, all coming forward to bear testimony to the integrity and ability with which that -Roman Catholic gentleman had dis charged the duties of his office. There was also an address to him from the grand jury, and another which I believe was unanimously signed by every practising solicitor in the county of Tipperary. Now, I say, then is this fair warfare against the Government—is it fair towards the individual whom we selected? Is it fair towards the character of an honourable man, as soon as we gave him the fair reward of his professional merit to .turn round upon him and injure his character and depreciate his merit, in order that through him you might strike a blow at the Conservative party ?—( Cheers. ) Sir, I think, this is an answer to the attempt of the Noble Lord to involve me in the responsibility of expressions which might have been used by gentlemen with whom I am connected. Now, as to the disposition to 'encourage offensive or hostile expressions used towards the Roman Catholic body. The Right lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Shell) made an appear .tome on that subject last night. The Right Hon. Gentleman referred to some addresses from the Protestant Operative Association in Dublin, and asked me whether I approved of the sentiments contained in those addresses, and whether I approved of the sentiments which were offensive to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. I will read the answer to those addresses. --(Mr. Shell here made some observation across the table which we were unable to hear.) The Hight Hon. Gentleman dropped his voice when he spoke. The Right Hon. Gentle man said " warm encouragement was given," and then a burst of loud cheering prevented the rest of the passage being heard. Now it often happens that' owing to the business which public men have to discharge that they will pass over long ad dresses presented to them, and not read those addresses very accurately, and then they return a common official answer, very civil and courteous, but they never expect that those answers will be brought forward in the House of Commons, I am sure the House will allow me to do the Government just tice on this point. I have had memorials addressed to me to the same effect as that from the Protestant Operative Associa tion, I had one before the agitation began. I had one ad dressed to me in the year 184t2. It was from the Prates tont Operative Association of the City of Cork. In th e memorial was this passage :—" We, the members of the Pro testant Operative Association of Cork, feel ourselves called upon, by a sense of duty to ourselves, our country, and our God, to address you on a subject of the first importance with respect to the best interests and welfare of the community." The subject was that of national education. "If the homilies be true, and those who sealed them with their heart's blood have raised up a testimony against error which can never be overthrown, then the priests of the Romish Church are Antichrist—then are they the special instruments of the devil."—( Loud laughter.) The climax improves as its pro ceeds, but I have read enough to show the nature of this address. Now I will read to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sheil) my answer to that address. This was in De cember, 1842. The answer I returned was to the following effect—" Sir, Ireceived your letter accompanying the address to me from the Members of the Protestant Operative Association of Cork. lam so r ry th a t they felt themselves called upon by their duty to God to express uncharitable sentiments in offen sive language."—( Cheers.) Now, 1 have shown the Right Hon. Gentleman what my feelings were on the subject of offensive expressions with respect to the faith of the Roman Catholics. responsibility rests for that military fei ce being in Ireland ?-- (Cheers. ) 1 oast to know o whom it is owing that our ex peetatieti. and hopes iit pree rising reduced estimates were de feated ? I want to put that fairly before the country—before the intelligent and reasoning classes of the comnosnity, and to make an appeal in the House to ail impartial men.—( Cheers. ) We took office in September, 1841, and in March, 1843, so tar from having evinced any disposition to govern by military force, I will state what the real force in- Ireland was at the two periods that I have mentioned. When we took office on the Ist of August, 1841, we found the force in 'lreland to be 14,822. On the Ist of September, the force was 16.257 rank and file. In Nlarch 1843, there were only 13.500 Thus between the two periods that I have mentioned the force was reduced from 16,200 men to 13,500.—(Cheers.) That shows that there was no disposition on our parts to rule with a military force. In March 1843, began that systematic agitation which was riot the consequence of any act of the Government—for which we were charged with no injustice or any undue partiality. No; my belief is, that there existed a strong and settled deter mination in certain quarters that we should not be successful. —( Cheers.) That determination was taken, and it was acted upon.—(Continued cheers.) About this time the poor-rate began to be levied. Throughout many parts of Ireland there was great dissatisfaction with the poor-law—an Act brought in and passed by the Noble Lord, the Member for London, and supported, I admit, by me. But that Act was most unfortu nate in some of its provisions, for it subjected every occupier, almost without exception, to the payment of the poor-rate. There were thousands of instances in the west of Ireland wherein rates from three farthings to three-halfpence in the pound were demanded. There was almost universal consternation and alarm. It became our duty to apply a remedy to the blunders which the Act contained. I don't say anything about neg ligence. Lord J. RUSSELL —Those clauses were introduced in the House of Lords.—( Hear, from the Opposition. ) Sir R. PEEL -1 beg pardon then. Still, the alterations were adopted by the Government, and that unfortunate mis take I have alluded to did cause a multitude of annoyances, which created great discontent and vexation in many districts of Ireland. But I will say no more on these subjects. I con fess I was anxious to pay the Noble Lord back in his own coin. —(Laughter. ) I have tried to do so—( Hear, hear)--he offered it to sue in the first instance, and having returned him with great pleasure that which I sincerely believe him entitled to—(Laughter)—l will proceed to other matters. Well, as I have said that Act was a most unfortunate one, Concurrent with the demand for the rates under it, agricul tural distress visited Ireland, and its effects were most severely felt. Concurrently too with these things the new tariff I h a d the honour to propo se b egan to b e felt. Ido believe that the reduction of price caused by the tariff, following closely on the demand for the poor-rate, alienated the minds of the people from the Government—l do believe that these two countries, the poor-rate being for the first time levied at a period of considerable agricul tural depression—did give great facilities to the agitation. —(Cheers.) The country at that time was in a very peculiar state. In the West of Ireland you had great excitement, and, consequently, great congregations of people, whose embittered minds were all dexterously directed against the present Go vernment.—( Hear, hear.) They were all demanding the abo lition of poor-rates—l am sorry to say not a few also looked to a serious inroad upon rents.—( Hear, hear.) Then unhappily came the determination to agitate for the repeal of the union.—( Hear, hear.) We watched the progress of that agitation with the deepest regret, and, after proper deliberation, we determined in what mode to deal with it.—( Hear, hear. ) We are now charged with supineness, and with permitting these meetings to continue in order to entrap men of eminence into a violation of the law. I declare here in public that that accusation is utterly false and without any shadow of a foundation.—( Great cheering.) We determined at once not to apply to Parliament for new powers.—(Loud cheers.) I confess, after the long experience I have now had of public life, that I am not at all favourable to any application to Parliament for any increase of the ordinary powers of the Government.—(Loud cheers.) I don't think there is anything which has a greater tendency to impair the ordinary power of the law than to listen to applications founded, as they generally are, en local alarms, to get some extraordinary powers from the Legislature in aid of the Executive.—( Hear, hear.) So far from adding to the authority of the Government, in my opinion it tends to weaken it.—( General cheers.) The evil effect of these extraordinary powers is particularly marked in this —that no man relies on the ordinary law—nay, the people get out of the habit of look ing to protection for, or exerting the ordinary powers which, the law affords.—( Hear, hear.) Now the Government, our predecessors, did not take the same course.—(Cheers.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite, amongst them severa l mem b ers an d many more supporters of the late Government, charge us with supineness in the first instance, and then with precipitate vigour in the second.—(Hear, hear.) Now, I tell you to re collect that you were not content to take our course—you were not content in your time to rely en the ordinary forms of the law—(Loui cheers)—you applied to Parliament— Lord J. RUSSELL—And you supported us.—(Cheers.) Sir ROBERT PEEL—I did support you.—(lronical cheers.) I did not try to aggravate the difficulties of your po sition.—(Cheers.) 1 entered into no confederacy with those who were destitute of any honourable or sincere sympathy with me.—(Great cheering.) But you applied to Parliament, and got from it a new Act, and a tolerably strong one it is. Do you forget it ? Here it is ; and it is intituled an Act for the more effectual suppressing of disturbances, and also of dangerous Societies in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) It is, I as sure you, a very stout Act of Parliament. It recites, that the laws are inadequate, and what do you think it enacts ? That the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, byproclamation, may supersede the ordinary tribunals of the country, and order the trial of delinquents to take place—not before a judge—not by a jury—but by a court to be formed of from seven to fifteen officers. That is your Act ! We relied on the efficacy of the existing law ; the Noble Lord did not. He took these precautions against those signal fires ; he passed a Bill, by which it was enacted that "no person should make any fire, bonfire, light, flash, or blaze—( Laughter) —or any signal by smoke—(Laughter)—or be present at the making of such signal." This was the N o bl e L or d' s A c t ; the Government thought it necessary, and therefore they passed it. lam only showing that the Government felt the extent of the evil to be so great that it 'asked extraordinary powers to put it down. Thus, lighting a fire, or making signals by fire, blaze, or smoke, was made an offence, punish able by martial law, and the persons committing it were to be tried by a court-martial, consisting of not more than nine officers, nor less than five.—( Cheers.) We asked no such powers ; we all concurred in trusting to the ordinary energies of the law, and in not adopting the system of the Whig Government. \Ve had the support of the Protestants of Ire land, and that of the Roman Catholics, who were opposed to the agitation. We were determined not to avail ourselves of the offers made by them ; we det e rmi ne d no t to avail ourselves of the yeomanry fo rce t h at was ready to come f orwar d i n a id of the Government. They made a voluntary tender of their as sistance ; but w e k new the consequence of accepting that assistance.—( Hear, he ar .) We knew that the consequence of accepting that assistance must be the raising of a spirit of re ligious animosity in the people; we knew that we could not have embodied the yeomanry force that was offered us ; that we could not call the Protestants of the north to the aid of the Government without running the risk of engendering re ligious animosities it would have required the lapse of years to allay.—( Hear, hear.) We were determined, except only in the last extremity, t o wa i ve any suc h ass i stance. B u t we not only lost the aid —w e discouraged and dispirited many of those friends. Our only reliance was, then, on th e ordinary vigour of the law. The charge against us is, that we were supine at first ; to that I give a peremptory denial.—(Cheers.) I say we gave public proclamation of the view we took of the repeal agitation. As Ministers of the Crown we gave it ;at the end hear.) of the last session of P ar li ament we a d v i se d h e r Majesty to declare from the Thro ne h er d i sappro b at i on. —(hear, You say we issu e d no proclamat i on i n the name of the Crown. What proc l amat i on cou ld speak in more emphatic language, in more emphatic terms, t h an the proclama tion made by her Maj es t y f rom the Throne ?—(Cheers.) Her Majesty said, " I have observed with the deepest concern the efforts made to stir up discontent and disaffection am o ng my subjects in Ireland, a n d to excite them to d ema nd a Repeal of the Legislative Union." H er M a j esty f ur ther said, "I am de termined to maintain i nv i o l ate the bon d o f conne ction between the two countries, and I hope my subjects will discourage this pernicious agitation, which disturbs the industry, retards the improvement of the country, and excites feelings of mutual animosity." That was the proclamation made by the Govern ment( h with e s . respect to thi s ag i tat i on. W e di s missed the magis. trates who took part in th e repea l ag i ta ti on . Was that no sig nificant indication of th e i ntent i ons of the Government? c without a previous proc l amat i on. I b e lieve the Noble _er)you complain that we dismissed them Lord opposite con s id ere d hi mse lf en titled to dismiss Mr. Frost from th e mag i stracy f or being a member of the National Co nvent i on ! —( L ou d c h ee rs.) The Noble Lord had written to M r. F rost whom he had appointed a magistrate—(Cheers) —asking , him whether or n o t ho was a member of that Conv en ti on . Th e Noble Lord, I believe , at first thought the answer sa ti s f ac t or y, and made no comments on on it. He subsequently di sm i sse d him, not which any seditious express and le did not prosecute act, but for taking part in meetings at a inflammatory language was used. I think him, but he thought himself entitled to dismiss him without a proclamation.—(Cheers.) We did dismiss magistrates for of the two taking part in an agitation for the separa tion . t countries, and we think w• were justified in . But we also gave these instructions to the Lord-Lieutenant:—" The mome nt you entitled by law to int e rfere with meetings that may endanger the public peace, that moment we authorise you, and desire that you will put them down." I want to show that the charge against us, that we remained dormant and with folded are arms, looking on at these meetings, is utterly without foun dation. It was our intention to interfere whenever the law should enable us to do so.--(Hear, hear.) But if these meetings were not legal, and as they still con tinued to be held then, it is said that we should have called in the military power to disperse them ; but in what a condition we would have been in if we had used force. But there were periods when it is said we might have interfered according to law. There was to have been a g.eat meeting at Cashel, and the Lord-Lieutenant sent down a gentleman well qualified to confer with the magistrates. His instructions to them were, that if they apprehended any danger—such as a firm-minded and sensible man might apprehend-- then, and not till then, were they to order the meeting to be dispersed ; but the meeting was not to be interfered with, unless men of firm and strong minds testi fied that they apprehended danger from the me e ti ngs o f t h e people. At a Cabinet Council, held on the 15th April, 1843, we issued instructions to the Irish Government that we thought they should consult the Lord Lieutenants of the different counties where those meetings were about or likely to be held, and if those meetings gave apprehension to the people, thereby creating reasonable grounds for alarm in the minds of firm and sensible persons, then might the Irish Government issue a proclamation calling upon all lawful subjects of her Majesty not to go to that meeting ; but if perso ns persevered after this notice in coming to that meeting, then they must use coercion. Then there was another meeting respecting which we had every reason to think there would have been a collision, and when we heard that there was to be this great meeting at Skibereen to consider the question of repeal, we again advised the Irish Government that if those proceedings gave apprehension to reasonable and firm-minded men, then, and not till then, must the authorities interfere. Then there were other meetings held at Dungarvon, and another at Clones. Why did we not interfere with these meetings? Simply because those apprehensions were not expressed, and would we have been mad enough to provoke a collision ?—(Cheers.) Where was the necessity for calling out the military but when we had apprehensions of meetings being held where the public peace was likely to be perilled ? Then we gave orders that a proclamation should be issued. The magistrates of Dungarvon addressed the Government, and expressed their apprehensions of danger to the public peace. The Government directed that if affidavits were properly . and regularly sworn to that effect, then the magistates might Interfere, and order the meeting not to be held ; but no interference was called for, and, therefore, was not necessary. We had an objection to issue those pro clamations where there was no necessity. We had no covert design to entrap men into the commission of conspiracy or sedition. We did hope that this state of things would cease. We wished to see matters return of themselves to repose and quiet. We wished this pernicious agitation to cease of itself, without the application of force. We thought it our duty to take every precaution that prudence with forbearance might dictate, although you-now charge rue with a desire to govern Ire land with military force, while we were doing all in our power to obviate and prevent such a grievous and lamentable necessity. The meeting was held on the anniversary of a certain day— the anniversary of the Irish rebellion.—( Hear, hear.) I wished to conduct nay defence with as little acrimony as pos. Mr. SHEIL—I did not think you held such sentiments. Sir ROBERT PEEL—And I wish to confirm you in that impression. —(Lord laughter.) I must in justice to the members of the Association, say that my letter was cer tainly received in a very becoming manner. It is but justice to them to read how they received my rebuke : "We fee great pleasure in acknowledging the receipt of your letter," — (Great laughter.) Really it is a most becoming answer to my letter. "We feel great pleasure in acknowledging your reply to the address of the Association on the subject of nationa education. We beg to offer our Warmest thanks for the promp and gentlemanly manner—( Roars of laughter)—in which you answer our communication. It was what we expected—( Shouts of laughter.) The reply itself has not disappointed our ex pectations."—( Continued laughter.) There was another ad dress to her Majesty en the same subject. Mr SHEIL—That is from Dublin? Sir R. PEEL—This is from Dublin, but mine was fre . Cork. My Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary for the Home Department was requested to lay the address before her Majesty, and I hold in.my hand the answer he returned. But I had better not read it to the House.—(Cries of " Yes, yes.") Well, then, any Right Hon. Friend said " I cannot commend a passage in the address which I find tends to insult a large class of her Majesty's subjects, or which, at any rate, is open to misconstru c ti on ; an d I cannot think that such an address is fit to be laid before her Majesty." Now observe, this was in the year 1842, and 1 do think that nothing is more indicative than this of the spirit in which we were desirous of administer ing the Government of Ireland, and that we were content to relinquish support rather than gain it by fomenting prejudices. —(Cheers.) I come now to the conduct of her Majesty's Go vernment with respect to the recent trials. We took office in Sep tember, 1841, and up to March, 1843, there appeared no great dissatisfaction with the manner in which the Government was conducted. I have shown you that we were desirous of abat ing religious animosities ; and we did what we could to stop any attempt to insult the faith of Roman Catholics. We have been charged with a desire to govern Ireland by military forcee Yost have admitted that the necessity existed for that force b e i n g in Ireland. Yes, and I want to know with whom the 01i3 Bible, and I will only state what is absolutely necessary in that dcfence. Thi, meting was held on the anniversary of the Irish rebellion and in the county of Tipperary.—(hear, hea-. ) The inhabitants of that county were called together, and in a short time after it was the scene of one of the most horrible tragedies in the records of crime.—( Hear, hear.) It was a eounty also in which agrarian disturbances prevailed. Why were those scenes selected for the meetings ‘shich took place on the Hill of Tara, at Mullaghrnast, and Clontarf? Every appeal was made by some of the speakers to revive the bitter animosities of barliarous times, and to evoke that fell spirit which exasperated the different races against each other. —( hear, hear.) Now, look to the day chosen and the scene of the meetings, anti I ask you, was there not evidence of the existence of a conspiracy to effect a legal object by illegal means ?—( Cheers.) Not by the present use of those means, but by the display of physical force. But it may lie asked, why did you interfere at Clontarf and not before ? Why, this is always the charge brought against those who act with forbearance. You are charged with having forborne so long, and acting at length, if you show the least forbearance. But we interfered with the Clontarf meeting on this account : It was the second meeting which was held in the neighbourhood of the metropolis. The Clontarf meeting followed the meetings of Tara and Mullaglimast, but it had this distinguishing cha racter, that there was a military array attending the meeting at Clontarf—repeal cavalry were invited to attend the meeting. Were cavalry necessary for the purpose of petitioning Parlia ment ?—(Cheers.) They were invited by proclamation to at tend as a military body, and military terms were used through out the proclamation which was issued from the Corn Exchange. Mr. ROCHE—It did not issue from the Corn Exchange. Sir R. PEEL—I think the documents will bear me out, and lam pretty sure that the first proclamation bears the same proof of having issued from the Corn Exchange as the second proclamation.—(Hear, hear.) Am I right in what I state ? ( Loud cheers.) (The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the proclamation respecting the repeal cavalry, which has been so often referred to, and which was dated the Corn Exchange on the 3d September.) Why did we o r d er thi s meeting to be suppressed ; ; When this proclamation was issued we consulted the Lord Chancellor, the Attorney and Solicitor- Generals, on the subject, and we put this question to them— Whether independently:of other circumstances, this summoning of a meeting in military array, with military organization, con stituted an illegal meeting? because if it did we were deter mined on interfering by proclamation. The answer we re ceived was, that that particular meeting differed in character from the meetings which were held in Cashel and Alullagh mast, not on account of the numbers who assembled, hut on account of its military character ; and that it was therefore illegal, and that the Government would be warranted in issu ing a proclamation to suppress it. We resolved on issuing that proclamation, and the reason why it was issued so; late has been so fully explained, that I will not go over the same ground again. The shortness of the time was unavoidable. It has been said that we did not issue the proclamation till late on the day—till five or six in the evening. I can refute that state ment by a reference to the counter proclamation referred to by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell). His counter proclamation was issued on Saturday the 7th at three o'clock.--(Cheers.) Now observe that this proclamation must have been printed and arranged, and that it is dated at three o'clock.—( Hear, hear.) I lament the shortness of the time, but do not, far the purpose of aggravating the charge against the Government, depart from the real. facts.—( Cheers.) We determined on occupy ing the ground, and making such a demonstration as would prevent the possibility of a collision, and we determined also, after the notice we gave at the close of the session in the speech from the Throne of our determination on the subject of the repeal of the union, and after the dismissal of the magistrates, to prosecute the parties who were instrumental in getting up those meetings, and we determined on prosecuting them for that conspiracy, of which we have convicted them.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had asked why we did not prosecute the printers, and my Right Hon. Friend never had answered that question. The Government would then have been covered with ridicule for not striking at the authors of the danger, but contenting themselves with the punishment of those who were the mere instruments.— ( Hear, hear.) Sir, I will not go into the history of these transactions ; but I ask the House to remember the references to the United States, the publication of the speeches which the son of the President thought it decent for him to deliver ; the declaration of the son of the chief executive officer of the United States says —" but the libation of freedom must some times be quaffed in blood." The reason why we read the ex tracts from the newspapers was, that the writer belonged to an Association which undertook their circulation. Those news papers contained appeals to the army—strong, continued ap peals to every prejudice which could be raised in the mind of the Celt against the Saxon. He asked the House to bear in mind the scenes which were chosen for their meetings, scenes selected for the express purpose of reminding the Irish population of events in past history w hich they could not reflect upon with out feeling irritated. lie called upon them to bear in mind the selection of the 23d of May—he called upon them to re member the songs which were introduced by some one— he knew not by whom—into the barracks of the troops, who was responsible for the introduction of such songs as the fol lowing— Who fears to speak of Ninety-Eight? Who blushes at the name ? When cowards mock the patriot's fate, Who hangs his head for shame? He's all a knave, or half a slave, Who slights his country thus ; But a true man, like you, man, Will fill your glass with us. Can you mistake the object of the studious circulation among an inflammable people, of songs like that? Who was the re sponsible party ? Was it not the man, whomever it might be, who belonged to an association having subordinate officers, whose duty it was to circulate the newspapers containing these songs, and these appeals, as a return for the subscriptions which they received ?—( Hear, hear.) iShould we have been justified, in the state in which the country then was, in declining to ap peal to our only instrument—the ordinary law of the country for the repression of such evils? 1 will not go into the trials, the subject is completely exhausted. We determined, how ever, to appeal to the law, and we did appeal to it. 1 declare that nothing was further from our wish than that the jury should be constituted won any other principles than such as were consistent with perfect justice; or that Roman Ca tholics should be excluded from the jury, simply be cause they were Roman Catholics. We appealed to the law and we succeeded ; the offence charged was within the law. We had only one instrument—we had no Coercion Act ; we determined not to avail ourselves of Protestant feel ing. You snake it a charge against us that we resorted to the only instrument in our power. Let me put the House in possession of the state in which the country was placed by this continued agitation.—(.fear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet then read a description of Tipperary on the 20th of October, 1843, when fires wens lighted on the hills every night, and the inhabitants were in constant ex pectation of an insurrectionary movement.) Was this ( con tinued the Right lion. Baronet) for the purpose of petition? —(lronical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches.) Was not this the result of that fearful system of agitation which left us at last no alternative, if we really wished to prevent an insurrectionary movement ? The only recourse left to us was to summon the chief authors of this agitation to answer for it to their country.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) We preferred the charge under the same law by which you had prosecuted Vincent—under the same law under which you had read newspapers and made parties responsible for their publication. We brought the charge, not against subordinate parties, but against those who said "we will prove to you that thi, do-nothing policy will not succeed ; we declare that the Queen has power to repeal the Act of Union; we will drive a coach and six through all your laws; we will prove to you that we can evade and defeat the law." Well, then We stepped forward, not in consequence of these taunts, but in consequence of the state into which the country had been brought by this pernicious agitation. We said "We will go before the country and ask whether these things aro tolerable where civil go vernment is maintained." I repeat, we succeeded. The Bench unanimously declared that the law had not been per verted, but that it applied to the offence charged. The jury brought in a discriminating and considerate verdict, and the par ties charged were convicted of the offence laid in the indictment. We have done all this without coercion, without applying to Parliament for extended powers.--(Cheers.) Having done all this without the effusion of blood—( Cheers)—without conflict or collision —( Reiterated cheers)—we find a powerful party arrayed against us who find fault with us for our forbearance at one time, and for our vigour at another.—( Cheers.) They are wise after the results are known—(Cheers)—and every effort taken during that anxious time to carry the law into effect by the law has been tracked with: all the sagacity of party, in order to find out some little error.—( Cheers.) They charge us with being reckless—(Cheers)—with having endeavoured to trample liberty under foot, with being desirous of governing Ireland not according to law.—(Cheers. ) If we had taken such a course, if we had acted too precipitately, if we had dispersed meetings which we were not legally entitled to disperse, if we had charged any single individual with attending an illegal meeting, and had failed, if we had selected some poor printer for prosecution, and sent him to gaol—(Cheers)—the walls of this House would have rung to sounds very , different to those with which they are now ringing.—( Cheers.) You would have told us that we interfered without necessity, that we had evinced a desire to interfere with the rights of petition— ( Cheers)—that we had not the courage to select the favourites of the people—( Cheers)—but that we had pursued the unmanly and paltry course of inflicting vengeance upon a printer, but that we had not dared to att a ck the po wer f u l leadcrs.—(donti naed cheering.) I will, however, say, in the face of the coun try, that in repressing this agitation, we have had no assistance from those on the other side.—( Loud Ministerial cheers. ) This I may say with perfect truth. (Continued cheers.) You know what it is to be exposed to the same -dangers.—( Cheers. ) You have had organised meetings against the Constitution to contend with.—(Cheers.) It has been your painful fate to have to deal with the fires at Bristol— ( Cheers)—with the attack upon Newport—(Cheers)—with an insurrection in Canada—(Cheers)—and if at that time you found a powerful party ranged against you—(Load cheers)—if we had taken up M. Papineau—(A laugh)—l do not mean taken up the man, but if we had espoused his cause—(Cheers) --if, while your proceedings in Canada were pending, we had brought forward a motion inculpating you for sending up ex officio informations when the grand jury had ignored your bills —if we had tracked every step taken by you, and contented ourselves with expressing a faint condemnation of the acts of a man who was advocating the cause of liberty, yon would have found it a much more difficult task than you did to vindicate the law.—(Cheers.) I have thus offered a vindication of the Government for the forbearance which we manifested at first, and for our determination to make use of no other instrument than the law, and for our application to the law when the con tinuance of the agitation left us no other alternative.— (Cheers.) I have now to state to the House the course of policy which we hereafter propose to pursue. I do not hesitate to declare, that, as the Hon. Gentleman says, we must consider in the present state of Ireland what measures its pub lic interests may require, and I will not be driven, by the fear of any taunts or of quotations from Hansard, from fully and freely expressing my opinion as to the course which we ought to pursue.—( Cheers.) I should be ashamed of myself if I were prevented by the fear of being charged with incon sistency, from adopting any measures which I believed would be conducive to the restoration of peace in that country.— `.(Cheers.) My apprehensions on this important subject are enhanced by the position of Ireland with respect to its physical Wand to its moral wants—by its position with respect to its civil and political, and more especially with respect to its religious state. The Hon. and Learned Member for Cork attached great, but not undue, importance to the influence of the physi cal condition of Ireland.—( Cheers.) He stated very truly that the sense of political grievances would be much less if the physical condition of the country were better.—(Cheers.) But when lie was demanding an exact identity of the franchise, I wonder it did not occur to him that, if wealth and intelligence are to be taken into consideration in the bestowal of the fran chise in a country where seventy per cent. of the population were in a state of absolute destitution, it must be more dangerous to grant an extension of the franchise than in a country where such a state of things is not in existence. There is one subject, however, in the consideration of which, without reference to political questions, we can all unite. I mean the improvement of the social condition of Ireland—that was a matter of the deepest consideration with us last session. The Hon. and benevolent Member for Rochdale brought in a Bill towards the end of the session, for improving the relations between landlord and tenant. He promised the Hon. Gentle man to introduce some measure on the subject ; but we found it was a matter involving such vast interests, that we could not legislate on it safely, without full previous inquiry. We, therefore, advised the appointment of a Commission, composed of landlords of Ireland, distinguished equally by th-eir rank and by their kind consideration for their tenants, and to that Commission we intrusted that inquiry.. In order to show that no religious feelings were mixed up in the appoint ment of the members of the Commission, it seas certainly ou r wish that it should have consisted, in addition to the Earl of Devon, of two Protestants and two Roman Catholics. The gentlemen applied to were prevented by considerations of health, and other imperative duties, from rendering their as sistance, and we proceeded therefore to constitute a Commission suited to the public interest. .The relation of landlord and tenant is of a peculiar nature in Ireland. Ido not hesitate •to say that there is an unfair and unjust prejudice against the great body of landlords in Ireland. 'fhere is a presumption that they are guided by different principles from those which guide the landlords in this country. to account is taken of the peculiar position in which they are placed. \Ve could not think of legislating on the subject without inquiring into the practice of different parts of the country—the practice of the north—taking the example of the estates where the tenants fire prosperous, and bringing to light and exposure those landlords who pervert the law—and discriminating between the good landlords, the vast majority, and the harsh and overbearing landlord. Such, we thought, would afford the best foundation for useful legislation. The Noble Lord referred the other night to a pamphlet called " A Cry for Ireland." I have read it, and I am shocked at how legal powers are, as it states, employed for the purposes of oppression. The Noble Lord says, why not bring in a short Act of Parliament? Will the Noble Lord per mit me to ask what has he been doing the last ten yers on this subject if he thinks legislation necessary ? The Noble Lord says that -a Commission is dangerous. Why that is an argu ment against every inquiry. \Ve could not inquire into the al leged grievances in \Vales without a Commission. With respect . to the recommendation of a short Act, the course pursued for the last ten years was that some individual Member, not connected with the Go vernment, brought in a Bill, which, having been read a first and second time, was allowed to go into Committee, when the unfortunate Member was met with so many objections, that no further progress was made, and the session passed without anything being done. We could permit that to be done. We could permit the useful Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford) to adopt that course, but we thought it better to act as we have done. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cork ( Mr. O'Connell) recommends the repeal of all the statutes passed on the subject since the union. The Honourable and Learned Member for Dungarvon (Mr. Sheil) said that they contemplated interfering with the law of landlord and tenant, brought in by Mr. Lynch, which gave much greater power to the landlord. I cannot pass by the speech of the Hon. Member for Roscommon—and in that speech I could not see one particle of party feeling.—(Cheers.) The lion. Member had acknowledged that the Government had a conviction that, under all the difficulties with which the case was beset, they had pursued the best course. The Go vernment was influenced by no other motive than a just desire to protect the rights of property, and, instead, of encouraging vague expectation, to probe the evil s of I re la n d t o th e bottom. With respect to the franchise, I will say that I should wish to carry out the principles of the Bill for the removal of the Catholic disabilities. I know not what may be the wish of the Noble Lord, the Member for I.ondon, with respect to the disturbance of the Reform Bill.—( Great laughter.) but this much I will say, that with respect to the Irish franchise, I think it ought to be substantially equal with that of Great Britain. Ido not say that there should be an identity of fran chise between the two countries, because that is impossible; but there ought to be a substantial equality of civil privileges for Ireland, and compared with all the other parts of the em pire. That there ought to be an identity—that there ought to be a nominal equality between the two countries, is what I feel confident that many Hon. Gentlemen en the other side of the House would be the last to desire, because gentlemen who had been most anxious to deprecate the extension of what was called the Chandos clause, would encourage the landlords to refuse granting leases to the smaller class of tents. But I shall give no opinion upon the subject, and only refer to that argument in the course of the debate to show that there can be no chance of identity of franchise between the two countries ; but still, I think, it will be sufficient for the purposes of this debate if I say that the franchise of the two countries should be substantially equal.—( Hear.) Sir, I now approach by far the most important subject of all — the course which I think we should take with respect to the Established Church. And I will, without reserve, and with the same explicitness, follow the course my Noble Friend, the Secretary for the Colonies, and my Right lion. Friend, the Secretary for the Home Department. 1 find the Protestant Reformed religion, and the Episcopal Church, esta blished by law in that country for 280 years; and I find the Establishment ratified and confirmed by Acts of Parliament partaking of the character of a solemn covenant, as much as such Acts could partake of that character.—( Hear, hear.) It was the intention of the Legislature, at the time of the union, to assure the Protestants of England and Ireland that the union should not endanger the Established Church in Ire land.—( Cheers.) I hope that gentlemen will not interrupt me in what I have to say.—( Cheers.) At a subsequent period —in 1820—I have found that those who passed the Bill of Emancipation, and used all their influence to combat the ob jections of the Protestant portion of the people—always kept in view that it was n ecessary t o g i ve an assurance to the Protes tants, that if they acquiesced in removing the disabilities of the Roman Catholics, there should be security f or th e Es tablishment.—(Hear, hear.) I say, that so far as a compact can have force, that compact has force. At the time of the union with Scotland it was settled that Presbyterianism should be the established religion of that country—and so it was with Ireland.—(Hear.) I was astonished, Sir, to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, in his very eloquent speech, refer to the subject of slavery, and state (as a proof that men sometimes changed their opinions) that Mr. Wilberforce pulled down the present Duke of Northumberland, then a Member of this House, and told him not to moot the abolition of slavery. In that allusion the Right Hon. Gentleman drew something upon his ima gination.—( A laugh.) I have referred to the report of the debate, and 1 find that what Mr. Wilberforce said in explanation was " 1 never said that slavery should not be abolished. I only said that the abolition should be post poned until the minds of the negroes should be prepared by education, to enjoy freedom." However that may have been, I cannot see how it could affect the paragraph in the Act of Union.—( Hear, hear.) I say also, that so far as authority can go, the highest authority is in favour of that view of the Act of Union. I do not speak of the Church, but of men who were of the highest authority, as expressing the opinions and feelings of the Catholic party. Could I name any-higher authority than that of Mr. Burke, Mr. Grattan, Lord Plunket, and Sir John Newport ?—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Burke was the earliest, the ablest, and the most powerful advocate of the Catholic claims. He wrote much on the subject of the Penal Code, and those who had afterwards written and spoken on the same subject, had only followed the argu ments which suggested themselves to his no tice.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Mr. Burke did not conceal from himself any part of the truth, He said you have an ecclesiastical establishment which, although it is the reli gion of the Prince and the landed proprietors, is not the reli gion of the majority of the people. Mr. Burke was of opinion that the connexion of religion with the State should be held fast. He wished well to the religion of the great num ber of the primary landed proprietors of the kingdom—that religion which was one of the pillars of the Christian religion in this country.—( Hear.) Such were the opinions of Burke. Lord Plunket said he would fling to the winds the question of the removal of the disabilities of Roman Catholics rather than compromise the existence of the Established Church. The dying request of Mr. Grattan was, that the removal of the dis abilities of Roman Catholics might be combined with the maintenance of the Protestant Church in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) The opinion of Sir John Newport, who, though he didi not rank so high in intellectual endowments, loved his country, as well as either, he was in favour of Catholic emancipation, but was of opinion that the Protestant Church ought to be maintained as an establishment in that country. The compact was of a sacred and solemn nature, which guaranteed the preservation of the Protestant Church ; but if he were convinced that the social welfare of Ireland required a departure from the strict terms of that contract, and if it were sought to bind up our legislative functions, so as that we must not alter it, ho must say he was not prepared for that.— ( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) But he must at the same time say, that nothing had so great a tendency to lower the character of that House, as to break pledges solemnly made by it—to make a compact ten years ago, and violate it now.— ( Hoar, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) Nothing could be so destructive to the prospects of uture legislation, and unless there be some strong and over-ruling necessity-- (Hear, from the Ministerial benches)—l will maintain the Established Church in Ireland, not only on the existence of the compact, and the opinions of the most eminent statesmen, but on my own pure convictions.—(Hear, hear, from the Oppo sition benches.) I bring reason and conviction in aid of that compact, and Ido not defend it upon a narrow ground. I do not believe it would be for the interests of Ireland, or any part of it, that I should accede to the motion for impairing the Established Church in Ireland, and 1 will assign my reasons. I am not now about to determine what would be the best measures for a new state of society, in which there were seven millions of Roman Catholics, and two millions whose faith was identified with the Established Church. But I talk of a country in which an Established Church has existed for more than 200 years, and which has been guaranteed by compacts, and by prescription. I consider that under all the circumstances of the case the present is the best regulation that could be effected. First of all I contend for the necessity of an establishment, and I apprehend my right to contend for that will not be disputed. You have an example of an Establishment in England and Scotland, and my conviction is that it is necessary for the put. - - poses of religion that an establishment of some kind or other should exist.—( A laugh.) Do not take an advantage of an expression. lam now addressing myself to the first step in the argument of whether we should have establishments or not. One of my reasons for maintaining an establishment in Ire land, and it is a cogent one I trust, is that if you had no establishment in that country you would have more bitter religious animosities than exist at present. I look, therefore, to its effect upon Ireland ; but of this I am perfectly certain, that if you establish a precedent of having no establishment in Ireland little time will elapse before that precedent will be sought to be ap plied to England. The other bight my Right Hon Friend, the Member for Pontefract, gave notice of a motion to make provision for the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, to which notice of amendment was given by the Hon. Member for Shef field, to the effect that no provision for the maintenance of the secular Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland was just or expe dient, unless based on such a revision of the whole of the ec clesiastical system as to place the clergy of all deno minations upon a footing of perfect equality. The Honourable Member for Montrose would not wait for the passing of the Bill. He would not wait for the motion, but on the day the original notice was given he was good enough to signify his intention of a ppl y i ng t h e same principle in Great Britain the moment that principle was affirmed. He also gave notice of a motion for an address to her Majesty, that she would be pleased to institute an inquiry as to what number of her Majesty's subjects dissented from the discipline of the Established Church, in England and Scotland, as well as in Ireland, with a view to the appropria tion of the surplus revenues of the Church to the purposes of education, or some other national charitable purposes. Now, I say, if you apply this principle to Ireland, it will soon be sought to apply the same principle to England. I say, therefore, that my opinion is decidedly in favour of an establishment; and it is decidedly in favour of maintaining the Protestant Church as that establishment. —(Cheers ) I can not conceive a more important question than that which will arise as to the nature of the relation between an Established Church and the State. The Roman Catholics say, that they will submit to no regulation by law. The Protestant Church is controlled by law. You subject it to great restriction-- you have prevented the meeting of the convocation, you regu late it s acts—you are jealous of its authority —you subject it to the restraint of the law, but you subject it also to the milder influence of favour, and of patronage. You claim for the Crown that species of influence which is derived from the nomination of a great part of the preferments in the Church. And it is difficult to estimate the effect of that influence on the Church. What do the Roman Catholics say ? They say we do not want an endowment. We refuse to submit to any such thing. You shall not bind us by any law. We will not sub mit to the nomination of spiritual persons being controlled by the Crown. We refuse to enter into any connection with you; and if you give us any endowment, we will not give you any control in our affairs. The flight Hon. Gentleman the Mem ber for Kildare, speaking with great deliberation and point, said, 4 ' If you try to solve the difficulty by entering into any arrangement with the Pope, and if you obtain a concordat from the supreme authority of the Church, even then, I tell yon, that your regulations will not be observed hi 1 Ireland, and your authority will not be obeyed. I tell you tl.at - tlie ecclesiastical euthoritiee in Ireland will rebel against your arrangement." 1 hat was the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman. We It he Hon. Gentleman then tell ore what ! equality there would be in giving an eudoenent to that Church while it refuses to submit to those reeulatiens which are esta blished in this country with respee to the , Protestant Church ? On the part of all Churches there is a dispesition to remonstrate against the exercise uf eivil power. You think it necessary In this, country to control the affairs of the Church fry very strict enactments. In Scotland you have lately found two parties in the Established Church claimiers exemption from civil control and asking fur independence. In that case you looked with the utmost jealousy at those claims. You positively refused to accede to their demand of exemption from civil authority, and you permitted a great part of that Church to sever their cerinexion, rather than enter into any arrangement. What would your own Church do? If the Protestant Episcopalian Church asked for its present eroyerty and rights—you being the Established Church—woulit you permit that Church to have theM ? Or will you :allow she authority of the civil power, the rights of the Crown eau' others to presentation, and the title to endowments? But ttee Roman Catholic s ys, we claim independence for ourselves ; and yet you would give revenues to a Church, and authority to 'a Church, that will not hold herself in allegiance. And this you call equality !—( Loud cheers.) Now, I do not believe that the preference is given to the Protestant Episcopalian Church from any wish to show disrespect—least of all to throw insult—upon the faith of others. Ido believe that in this country a preference is given to the Protestant: .Episco• lien Church from a preference to its doctrines—(Ciseers)— from a decided preference to its doctriere—( Cheers)--arid I contend also that that prefereece implies no insult 'won those who dissent front its doctrines, and that: it is extravagant to say that because I have a 1 Te ference for its doctrines, that it. involves me in the necre sity of persecutin g any other Church whatever.—( Loud cheers from all p ar t s o f the house. ) Whatever reasons lor you may have for preferring the Establishment—and there is no necessity for going into them at this moment—that does not imply that we have any right whatever to quevion the right of others to the fullest freedom in the exercise of their faith. I turn to the propositions of the Hon. -Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward). I consider those prepositions exactly tantamount to a total suppression of the Protestant Church in Ireland.— ( Hear, hear. ) That Hon. Gentleman says—Let us divide the revenue of this Church —let —.et us give 70,000/. to the Protes tant, 70,0001. to the Presbyterians, and 450,0001. to tee Boman Catholics. Why there is no equality in this.—(Cheers. ) Se venty thousand pounds to the. Protestants who submit to cur civil authority, and know no foreign one, and four hundred and fifty thousand to a Church which prides itself on dividing that authority, and being independent of all national control whatever !—(Loud cheers.) 'Why this is the reverse of equality—and it is more than that, it is gross injustice.— ( Cheers.) But a Noble Lord ( Howick) talked by analogy. Is that Noble Lord prepared to permit those who acknowledge allegiance in Church matters, not to the Crown of England but to a foreign spiritual authcrity—is he, I ask, prepared to allow the Catholic bishops to take their seats in the House of Lords ? If he is not, then your principle of analogy is good for nothing.—(Cheers.) Here is the religion guaranteed by several Acts of Parliament, by long prescription, by ' thousands and thousands of ties of the strongest and most endearing character, by an alliance with the State of two hundred and fifty years, and we are told not to maintain it, because its existence is inconvenient.—( Cheers. ) I ask, what, then, will promote religious peace in Ireland ? Do you suppose that it will promote mutual concord and peace to say to the Protestants—" Equality of franchises is es tablished. You now must give up your Church ?"—(Loud cheers.) You little know the spirit you would evoke.—(Loud cheers.) But your equality. your division of revenues, your analogy, you never attempt to work out so that we may look upon practical results. Supposing you to get your proposed 450,0001. of revenue, what will you do with the churches ?—( Hear, hear.) Do you mean to call on the Protestants to sacrifice the endowments and give up the churches too ?—(Cheers. ) You must do that, or where is your analogy. If you give the endowments in the proportions proposed, you must, by your own rule, give the churches in the same proportion.—( Hear, hear, and cheers. ) I believe that a proposition more calculated to ensure discord was never propounded.—( Hear, hear.) I am, therefore, pre pared to offer just as decided an objection to that proposal of the Hon. Gentleman, as I am to oppose the transfer of the revenues of the Establisument to the Roman Catholic Church. There is another proposal. It was, not to venture at once to destroy the Church, but to undermine and sap its foundations. I think that course just as fatal as any other. I think that, not to destroy life at once, but to infuse some slow poison into the veins, which will ultimately cause its destruction, is a course as little likely to promote either social or religious peace, as either of the others.— ( Cheers.) I therefore come to the conclusion, founding my self upon compacts, on authority, and on the convictions of my own mind, that the best course—and the course which 1, for one, as far as my humble powers can effect it, the Government will pursue—is to maintain in its integrity the Protestant ! Church Establishment.—(Loud and continued cheering. ) When I say in its integrity, I do not mean to exclude all such reform% as may increase the efficiency of the Establish ment for the purposes of religion; but I do mean that I will neither consent to overthrow the Church, or to establish three forms of religion in Ireland, or to make a division of the revenues of the Church between the Protestants, the Presbyterians, and the Roman Catholics ; nor can I consent to any of those smaller proposals, wheh mean nothing if they do not mean the ultimate des ruction of the Church. I have therefore stated the grounds on which I propose to act with respect to the religious este.. blishments of Ireland ; does that compel me to exclude alto gether the consideration of the position of the Boman Catholic Church in that country ? Am 1 to consider that Church as altogether outcast, and to be excluded from any eonsideration of regulations that may improve its condition ? Endowments from the State you absolutely reject. We were assured that by the voluntary endowments of individuals it might be provided for without the violation of conscience, and yet with the concession of a great boon. The Noble Lord, the Member for Tiverton, threw out this suggestion last session in a friendly spirit, and we professed our readiness to consider it. As usual, we are met with a state- ment that it will not be of the. slightest value ; it is rejected on the authority of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman We were assured that many Protestants would be disposed, for the sake of promoting peace, and for the purpose of improving the condition of the Church and charitable establishments, to make voluntary endowments to the Catholic clergy. The absence of such endowments is alluded to by Mr. Scurry, in his work on Ireland, as a great evil. (The Right Ho nourable Baronet read the passage, which stated that the doubts whether such funds would not be appropriated to Protestant establishments, amounted to an absolute prohi bition to their being made.) That absolute prohibition (con tinued the Right Hon. Gentleman) we are willing to remove, accompanied with such securities as would prevent any abuses, that might arise from the removal. I was certai n ly surpr i sed to-night at hearing, for the first time, the c ffer met in the manner ithas been. We are, however, still prepared to con sider our promise. There only remains the subject of edu eation.—( Mari hear.) I might refer you to the course we have taken on national education as sufficiently indicative of our determination to adopt those measures we believe conducive to the welfare of Ireland, even at the risk of offending many of our supporters. We pro pose in the present year to make a considerable increase in the grant for the purposes of national education. I should be very sorry to refuse to consider the means of still further increasing that education. It has been suggested that instruction in the science of agriculture might be usefully given in Ireland, and advantageously engrafted on the present system of education. ( Hear, hear.) I should be sorry to exclude all considerations of matters of this kind; I should be sorry to exclude a consideration of the means of providing an academical education o f a hi g h er c l ass than that given in the national schools.—( Hear, hear.) But at present we do propose to make a considerably increased grant for the purposes of natronateducation. I have now done. I thank the House for the attention with which it has heard me.—(Cheers). I trust it feels that I have only trespassed at such a length on its attention from a sense of the necessity of discharging a public duty.—(Cheers.) ; I have stated our general views of the policy and measures we intend to adopt. In themselves they may not be immediate and effectual remedies for the evils under which Ireland labours ; but I trust I have said enough to show the spirit in which the Government is prepared to consider the questions connected with the legislation of Ireland, I was reminded by the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Shrewsbury, in a very able speech, not the less to be admired because it departed from the general rule of Parliamentary usage—l was reminded by the Hon. Member—that I said that the question of the state of Ireland was one of far too much im portance to be sacrificed and treated as a question of party ex pediency. I said, that however lion. Gentlemen alight be attached to the party of the Government, that if, on the question of the state of Ireland, they might consider larger and more extensive measures necessary than we were inclined to promote, I said, and I said with perfect truth, that I thought this question one of such paramount importance, that all questions of party consideration must give way to it, anti I thought that any gentleman giving his vote was bound to give a free vote--an unfettered vote on this important question. I would on no question make any sacrifice of principle, but for the good of Ireland. and for any question or measure tending to promote her welfare, I would make any personal sacrifice, and have made sacrifices before now, for the purpose of extendi ng peace to Ireland.—( Loud cheers.) I have for this end made sacrifices of which the loss of office was the least. I have suffered the loss of private friends —and the alienation of personal attachment and private esteem. (Cheers.) Why am I not this moment the representative, in stead of the rejected candidate of the University of Oxford ? When we proposed emancipation in the loss of official power was certain, and 1 yielded in the hope. of promotinu peace in Ireland, but with deep emotion; and for the same purpose I sacrificed also that which was the proudest distinction of my life, the representation of the University of Oxford. I regret that I must consider the present condition of Ireland as not being what it ought to be ; but 1 hope the civil power in Ireland will continue to maintain itself, without the aid of the military power. While we remain in office we will assert the power anti dignity of the law.—(Loud cheers.) We will assert the power of the law firmly, powerfully, and calmly, although we deprecate the use of extreme measures, which should only be resorted to in cases of the most urgent necessity ; but having resorted to them, and vindicated the insulted dignity of the laws, we are satis fied. Our object was to restore peace and t ranqu illi ty, and with them to bring prosperity and happi ness to t h e country. We have succeeded in restoring friendl y re l at i ons with France and all other foreign powers. We have succeeded in improving the commerce of the country. W e h ave succeeded in securing a surplus in the revenue over th e expen di ture, We have seen the revival of commercial and manufactur ing prosperity; but in the midst of these cheering prospects, we have had to contend with that baneful " intestinurn et domesticum bellum ;" and we cannot, I regret again to say, express our satisfaction with the state of Ireland, but I trust, however, that that alternative which party suggests, which says that we cannot govern Ireland without military foree—..l hope and trust that this suggestion is not well-founded. It is said that by party influence, peace may be restored ; but I think that without party influences or party motives, we may be aisle to govern Ireland as she ought to be governed- I see much cause for congratulation and hope, when we view the noble applications of science and its wonderful progress. I shall riot be surprised if in my day I see the interval between Dublin and London shortened to within a twelve hours' journey. The reports of engineers show that the interval between both cities could be shortened to a journey of fourteen hours.— ( Hear, hear.) My belief is, that with the progress of ins provement it will be still further shortened. (Hears hear.) I cannot help thinking that in the . upper classes‘ of society there is a growing disposition to obliterate past evae r r through de the House.n on t h a e ni s in ta heard in debates e sities.—( Hear, hear.) Ido not now h . of Ireland as compared with what I have differences mie of creed, and former times, without seem distinctions of race.—( ear, hear, and cheers. ) obliterate a strong disposition When anything is said by Hop ! Gentlemen . on the other side e y on t c r e u r s n t edthiant itthtehatinitfluiserieree.oufdipetal?ilat'o;. House in kindly disposition, it is met by Hon. Gentle of the the law, may control agitation, men opposite of the . Itoman Catholic . persuasion in a spirit cor— responding to the spirit in which it is made.—( Hear, heat.) to . fo g rge i t 'rev h i I IC opin o iionne th ,e C ast r h e ow fo see r l e lwa e hs a o r o n af e r s e tl ana . the best interests of Ireland—that it impedes i P m co; i v prevents the application of capital —prevents. tho ti red ment L those grievances which I am persuaded can - he Letterressreo. dressed by the application of individual interposition and tc , hip co% Wed t; j n ot t hat o °°; The S; to the