The Sun. — London, England, 1803-03-05 00:00:00

411 U lIOL wear wove of the first crater Of this wealthy . Nation to be obscured any longer in the shade of private life, where he - hid existed too long, but which he,hoped would 1, , e shortly dissipated by the sun-shine. of- their atbet alit v and servos', The Committee he meant. to propose to the' HOuse ,was not without precedent, such a Conunittee had been appinted - in the year 1795, which examioad into "the`' Prince's affairs, and ina,ae a necessary liquic L a. .tion for his Debts, - aril therefore - he Thought it but right altar sense Measure should be itmororately adopted to add an additional lustre to the aviation of His Royal 'Highness the Prince of Wales:a.- He said,, he- bad little more to observe on this iin.' portant question." He thoeght the House Must . see the necessity of making a proper provision for the support of this august Personage the Prince of *ales, he therefore should not go any further into the question ; and if' the House could not'establish the objet of his wish, it must end. The reason he had for bringing the question before the House, arose from the atoritty which every Member evinced for the dignity of every Branch of the Royal .ilouse.— 'This, and the .Country being in a state of Peace, And es ety, thing related to the kingdom in a stare of prosperity. aid welfare, it was the wish of', the Nation at laree.to see the Prince of Waleslive amid a loving people, the prints. and glory of his Coun try. 'lf he had therefore misinterpreted His Ma. PstY's Message, it was riot his intention so to du. He therefore begged leave to mote, '' That this House, anxiously desirous to give'foll erre& to the . irepentara objcci recommended to their consi. deration by His Majesty's most Gracious Mes s sage, will 'appoint a Sided Committee, to in. - quite and: tredve information respeffing the 'extern of those Claims opt the justice and ho - - nour of the Prince of Wales,- which, accord. ing to Official conorion4 - ottion made to this House,. impede his Royal a to fulfil hlis Majesty's most gracious intention, that he should resume that state and dignity which is becoming theoHeir Ap parent to the 13riii,11 Empire." The IVlSation being put, and seconded by 'Sir WM. G.EARY, Mr. h RSKINE sAiti,. he was well informed before he came into the, House, on the night the 'Hon. Glostlemao (Mr. CALCIt AV?) gave his notice of the present 1001100, by one of the Prince's Servants who brought toot he Message, that His Royal Highness the Pripet of Wales had expressed his utmost satin. , faelien and pleasure with the vote of the House, and that he had not authorised any Member, or any Gentleman, in any situation whatever, to address the House to the circa of the present Motion. He observed, His Royal Highness bad taken no interest in his affairs, bin entirely left them to the wisdom, of Parliament, who had sheen their esteem and' partiatity to His Royal Highness, by that concern and attention they had manifested to his welfare and the increase of his comforts. He, therefore, had only to assure the House, before he spoke on . the merits of the question, that the Ptince was not privy to the bringing forward the present Mo t io n . It might be supposed- that if he should at all ac. cord with the OVUM of .the• Motion, and should consider it an ad of Justice due from the House to His Royal Highness, Gentlemen, might suppose hits partiality arose from the situation he has the honour .to hold, -as Citancellor to this august Per. sontige, and therefore he was induced to become the at:vacate of the present Motion ; but he could as sure the House that he had to support a Charatter of far more importance, namely,; to represent his Constituents with fidelity and honour. With re_ sped to His Majesty's Message, he, was of the same' mind with the Hoe. mover of the resent Motion, that it was with Parliament to determine as to the Income they were 'inclined to allow his R o y a l Highness, His Majesty t ad not specified any par. tieolat sum that the Prince of Wales was in w ant a . -- oindeed -it w as i m p oss ibl e f or His Majesty to ask for -a-specific sum. The King had displayed that moderation which had ever charaaerized him. It certainly does appear that the Message leaves the Income to the wisdom of Parliament; the question now remains, whether the House feel inclined, in its wisdom, to grant His Royal Highness such an Income as will enable - him to shine in his proper and elevated sphere, as .well as give him the means, to discharge his jest. and honourable Debts, which was the particular wish of the Prince. to get rid of, and God forbid the King or any part of the'Royal Family should do a dishonourable aelion—a family whoSe virtues and wisdom are, acknowledged by all ranks of Society, and he was sure their name and perfe&ions would he handed down to Posterity, as an, example to future Monarchs—that the happiness of a People will be ensured, as,long as they can imitate the virtues cif George 111. and his illustrious Son. Mf. ERSKINE said, he did not consider the Hon. Gentleman's proposition as improper.. If it had been the request of a Message from, the Prince of, Wales, it would have been very indecent ; but coming from anodic., Individual, it is by no means improper.o:The people will, no doubt, he happy to shew theioattachment to every branch of the Royal Family, and manifest their desire .to see the Prince teacarts. his wonted dignity, The present Motion might be - considered as conveying PHs Majesty the following langoage We desire to amend your Majesty's Message, and to 'give more than your Majesty has been pleased to ask Tut your Royal Son." The House, no doubt, would then give an ample Sum to raise the Pribee to his former splen ,d6r.' If the CHANCFLLOIt of the Estes/ Noel. h a d matte this application to the. House, it might have .been opposed ; but he was sure, as the Motion came from the. Huh, Gentleman (MT. CALCRAFT), who was supposed to'express the wish of the mak). 'tiny of the Ilouse, and the Country at large, uncon. ; mcted with Goverement, every individual 'would aptefore subscribe to He begged ,again to re. reit, that he had the authority of the Prince of Wales for saying, that he was perfeifily satisfi ed with the grant already givers him by the House. fie had often said, that the Prince's 4 .! 1 .,....,#5 ,41 +LI prr:per importance- claim would not produce a specific stun out of the Dutchy of Cornw,lll. There was a stun of five hundred and seventy,five thousand pounds out of the Property before.inentioned, for the sup. port of a Prince uf Wales, but not for this Prince ot .or that Prince of Wales, but the Heir Ap. 'riuVc+iy itiC prCirElt rrince THOU 11 , Ire uaei tvaVecl , -g for the present, his just Clain', yet every Likwyer, conceived was it property belonging to Ili= • Mr. FULLER - said; he -felt groat pleasure in, giving the.. Motion now before the House .his, must strenuous . support, because-the objea: Of it svas,. 417 least so he co.lsidered it, tip .rieice the Prince .of Wales in a situation of dignity . and ,splendor,. in which the wisdom of our Ancestors-,thought that the Heir Apparent of the Crown ooght• to be placed. • The immediate -tendency of this Motion was only for the pu r p ose o f. in qu i r i ng i nto t h e real circumstances Avida preveeted the Prince from re. suming his dignity ; and he wa's at a loss to conceive,- how any possible objedinri Could sbe Made to it.-H On the part of :1 is Royal Highness, he ,was sure .there could be no objeetion to submit to the consi. 'aeration of the House all the necessary statements, 'and nothing could be more virtuous and, honourable than such condo& There ere some circtimstances.. conneaed with the former - Debts of the Prince of Wales, which must necessarily give him great un. easiness. He would only mention the case of a v,ery respedale tradesman, the late Mr. 'Leader, who was coachinaker to Ilk Royal Highness. When his accounts were under examination before the Corit.. missioners appointed. to settle the Prince's affair's, they asked him some questions respeding the amount: of his charges; and he proved, in the.most Amis. faelory manner, the fairness of them, by producin g the prime cost of all the articles ; and yet, after this, to per. cent. was taker; ofF his.•bill. He was sure if it bad gone into a Court of Justice, a jury would have awarded him the full sum. lie would therefore support the Motion, because it. would re. • store to his natural dignity, one of the most ele. gant-minded, most manly, and most, accomplished Princes in Europe. Mr. CZ4RTIKRICaIi said, it appeared to him,: both from His Majesty's Message, and from the communications which had been made to that House froth the Prince of Wales, that sonic Committee of this kind should be appointed to examine into the . subject. But, in voting for: the Committee, he,, begged by no means - 10 be understood as pledging himself to support any propositions that might be made to it. With respect to what had been said of the necessity of the Prince -of Wales resuming his dignity; he was Very .certain that His Royal Higiliness would lose no part of the public esteem which he possessed, by continuing that system of eccinomy which he had practised so long, if it was necessary for the isityment of his debt's. . Sir ROBERT BUXTON' said, it was by no means necessary for the Gentlemen on the other side of the House to have declared that the Prince of Wales was unacquainted with this Motion, be cause, from what had fallen upon a former occasion from His Majesty's Solicitor-Genera!, the House had been given to understand, that 'His Royal Highness was perfedly contented with the proposi tion which had been made by His Majesty's Mini sters., His Majesty, with . that :kindness which al ways distinguished had expressed a wish that the Income of - the . Prince.of Wales should he in. creased, and the Prince, feeling gratitude for the. proposition which had been Made in consequerice of His Majesty's Message, had expressed himself per, fedly contented with that proposition;. and, in doing so, His Royal Highness had, in his opinion,. done hinhelt great credit.; lint however high his sentiments for the Prince might be, yet, feeling as. he did for the situation of the Country, it becam e . him to speak hi s sentiments in, that House; as one of the Representatives of the People of England: It was true the COuntry was no l onger i nvo l ve d in a state of. War, but he wished to ask, whe, titer we were much better in our Financial Sys. tem 1•. Whether any of - the Taxes which were laid on during the War had been taken off? It was true indeed that the Income Tan had been taken otf, but the House would recolleet it had been replaced by other Taxes of an equal amount ; such as the Assessed Taxes, and otherS, which fell very heavily on the people. He did not mean to say thing against these Taxes, because he was con, vinced Of their necessity ; but he merely urged it to shew, that in a financial point of view - the Coun. try was not in a better state now than it was dur ing.the War ; at least, that no additional burthens, unless absolutely necessary, should be bid upon the Feople s When they saw a neighbouring Country ,with goo,Ooostnen ready to,pour in upon'us, the momeot they might conceive themselVes insulted, it surely was not a time unnecessarily to lay any new burthens on the 'People: • Nobody wished more than he did that the proper dignity and splendor of the Royal Family should be kept up, but he was sure that Princes could never 'do themselves - more „ . credit than when they waved useless expences, and lived in the private way which His Royal Highness bait dqne, to enable him to diScharge his debts.— Considering the subject in this point of view, and at the same time feeling the highest resped fin the Prince of Wales, he should move the Previous Question. Mr. CURWEN said, he would certainly vote for the previous question. He wished that Geode. men would have stated at once the sum which,thu conceived necessary to discharge the Prince of Wales's incumlirances ; but at present to go into a Committee might raise hopes, which upon examina. tton the _House might not be inclined to rsalize. Mr. HILLY ARD said he should support the Motion for going into ayommiitee. Mr. jOHNSTONE said that the original Mo. tion Mitch had been made, appeared to him nt so mischievouva tendency, that he would give is hi s most decided disapprobation. He begged leave to, preface the few observations he had to m a k e , b y dectaring, he yielded to'no Gentleman in that house .. . ____ ...... in esteem for His Royal Highness, or in admira tion of his good qualities, and he did 'not, doubt, , that when he should he called upon to fill the Throne of this Country, he would imitate the ex. cellcht example that had been set him. But in a question of this kind, it would be improper for . him to follow the dktates of" his feelings he must be ' , guided by a sense of his duty to his C . .msti'tuents. When he considered that the people of this Country were burthened with 40 millions of Taxes, -that its int:Woe did ngt equal its expenditure, %t:heu a great and arduous contest was evidently preparing fur: us, in whict) our national existence would evidently be I)..)sr a new inutl .any. eens on the people. - He expeded that : Gentlemen - would have shewn to the House, es ateleest have attempted to do it, that the Country was rruw iii dmuch better situation than it was in the year retee; and consequently better able to grant the matey. No such attempt had been made, nor, if it had been made, Would it have been successful. If at that ,period Parliament was right in the decision which it came to respecting the Prince of Wales's affairs, he wanted to'knoW what circumstances had occurred since, which ought to- induce the House to depart from the system then adopted,:end to take a newline of conduds? 'With respell to the questionahout the Revenue.of the Dutchy of . Cornwall; he would not enter into it at present : he was sorry the question of the Prince's right had not been decided in a legal manner, but he believed there was good reason why that claim was : pot pursued, because there was very little reason to suppose it would answer the purpose. The amount of the Revenue of rite Dutchy of Corn wall, which had been received during the Prince's minority, amounted to 234,0001. the expenditure out of the Civil List amounted to 239,0001, so that even admitting the Question 9f Right to be_ in the, Prince's favour, the balance was against him Upon the Account. - But this'Was 'not all, the Public had paid other end large sums' for His Reyel'Highness, and therefore he could not but consider it as an in sult to the House, when Gentlemen talked of the Prince's being made any sacrifice upopehe occa. siort—(A cry *f "Order ! Order !",1--Mr. JOHN. STONE then continued, that what he said, he had said as a pan who 11.111.140 e to fear, and little to hope. He should now conclude what he had to say, by declaring, that in his opinion there was no claim of Right whatever in this case,, and whatever was done proceeded from the ienerOsity and liberality of'the Public. Mr. 11. LASCELLES .said,, he felt great reluc tance in opposing this Motion, became there was no man in that House le s s di s p ose d t h an b e was to do any thing which might he considered as disre spedful to the Prince of Wales. But:as a Member of Perliemeor, be felt himself bound, whatever his pri atefeelings might be, w oppose the Motion. With resped to the Claims whielfthe Prince of Wales was stated to possess on the revenues of the Dutchy of Cornwall, they certainly had never been legally made ,out, though they were . frequently, eld out in that House its it Were in tereerere. Therefore he could not concur with those Gentlemen who said, it. was an at 'of Bounty in the Prince not to persiit in those Claims ; he was extremely' anxious that the dignity of the Prince of Wales should he supported, and the hoped thet the Prince 'would assist the House in the cndeauours they were making for that pute pose. , • Sir WILL GEARY said, he had seconded the Motibia, because whatever might be the result of the inquiry,' he thought there could be no objec eionoo go into it. Mr. Mee said a few words, the purport of Which, by a degree of 'noise which prevailed in the Home at the time, we were prevented froin hearing. Mr. BURDON said, he was as anxious as any man could be, that the Prince of Wales'S dignity should be, restored to him : but, as an Independent Member of Parliament, he thought he did his duty to the Prince and to the Country," by adhering to that measure which Ministers had proposed, in con., seqUence of His Majesty's Message. He should', therefore, vote for the Previous Question, Mr.'TIERNEY said, he was glad 'the Question had been brought forward in its present shape, be.' cause it gave him an opportuni t y o f di scuss i ng t hi s subjeet, which he had not. had before, from the cire cumitance of the Report having been received on the day the House went with the Address to St. James's. e In order to express More clearly the point of view in which this Question~ struck him; he would suppose , for a moment, that he was Country Gentleman, who had been absent' from the House for some time, and had just returned to his duty in that House : the first' thing he would find upon the Journals would be, His Majesty's Messag; expressive of his wish that the Prince of Wale, should be enabled to resume that dignity and splen. dor which belonged to' his exalied situation. He would also find a .communication from ete rfince of .Wales, stating, that the -propOsitinoapch His Majesty's Ministers had thoeght proper 'to make in that House respeding Hit Royal Higheess's income, was not such as would enable the Prince to resume that degree of state and splendOr, .Which it was wished he lhould resume. Suppose the Country Gentleman, having been informed-of these circurn stances, should wine into the House and hear a Gentlemen making a motion for a Committee for an Inquiry as to. what- would .be best to be done in order. to carry His Mejsty's most gracious inten tions into eir;:a, it would naturally occur to him, that no method could ha adopted niore calculated to remove the obstacles, which prevented the Prince of Wales from resuming his dignity, th a n toinquire what those difficulites Upon. that principle he shuts! . certainly' support th e .M ot ia n , more especially :as by supporting it, - he by no means hound himself, to vote-for the payment °fatly debts,. or the discharge of any bemtbranees, unless there appeared to him the most satisfadory . grounds for it. He was the more willing to go into this Connittce, because he was sure that the ' result of any Inquiry which Might take :place would' be highly nondurable to the Piince of Wales. Professing hiMself, as he 'did, a• friend to His • Royal Highness, from WhoM he had received repeated aefs of kindness, he, should cer. tautly bee e very .to go - into any inqUity,f unless he was sure that the result' 'of it 'would be honourable to His Royal Highnessi He cOulifnot-', :help complaining a little of sonic of the language' Which had been used upon : this-occasion. It bad been said, that burthens were 'to be laid upon the, people:; tiais was rather invidious, because before; stidelenguage wes.used, it ought-to be ascertained Whether the prince lad not •an adual The, Prince had made , that claim last Session ; he was then told that that House was not the proper place to make his claim--that he must. resort to a Court of ),rw. His Royal High. nth' did make his claim in' 'a Court of jus tice, and the case was in. a -train for adjudicatien. How came it to be'-stopped "nit House had no information upen th e bubjra it d i d t appear not appear from any thing he knew, that the had applied for this additional 60,0001. a year, that lie was discontented wirh his former locum It seems that in me, that Parliament thought tl Prince should undergo a Pennancer of twelve year on account of the debts he had contraftede that is I say, that a large portion of his lucerne should t appropriated tta pays his debts ; but at the end seven years and 'a half, just when the Prince claim was on the point of decision, Ministers can forward with - cilia - offer to His Hig! ness : is remained for them to state wily they la chosen .that precise period to make the offer.- It had been said, that the Prince of %Vales had o caved large sums of money, and that this clai .was.tto 'insult to the House t But he was by no Meal convinced that any person, let his situation be seta it might, was - wrong in having recourse to leg measures' to obtain that which he conceived to 1 his right. But he begged to state distinctly, he-did not admit - the statement which had been macs by..an. Hon. Member. wittiatogard. to. -the-balance t the account between eht.Prince and the Public, ht cause he thought that in justice nothing but who His Royal Highness had :received from the:Publit could be set off against his claim ; and the Hof Gentleman appeared to him to be by no means ic curate in the.calculations he had made upon the sub Jett, because in stating the sum' due to tie Primmer .. - instead of :3+,00°1. would be found, if the mat ter was fairly investigated, that the Public did no 'owe His Royal Highness -much less than 600,0001 if from that sum was deduaed the sums which been adVanced tohis Royal Highness, there wuni still remain a balance in his favour of above 300,0001 He therefore contended, that he had 'been the leas expensive Prince of Wales to the Country, that ever knew. , He begged to be understood, that hi_ knew of oo Inctanbrance that His Royal Highnem had since the year 1795 ; but even if there should be any such Incumbranee, it by•no means follovied chat it was unnecessarily contraded,. or • that ought 'not. to be defrayed.' Much kid been said about. economy, tolvbich-he certainly had no oh. jeCtion; but' he wished to ask, if the Prince el Wales was die only.person . in. the kiogdom from whom. such economy was to be exacled, or to' who" no allowance was to be made, fur-the great incrme in the price of 'all dm - articles of life ? Ministeri had preached economy, iet they heal proposed to vote the. Prince of Wales . e6a.,Oool. a year, without any inquiry whatever; and when an Inquill was • called for, they refused 'it. But , - whei they talked. so much about the economy which tie Prince ought to observe, were they quite age that in, some of the Public Accounts which were laid before 'that House, there, were not sow items that did not savourqui quite so much of economy? Some ,years ago a new office was instituted, he mesa the Secretary of State•for the War Department, the Under Secretary to which received at 'first 1 5001,a year e which was afterwards increased- to :moral. 2 year, without - any inquiry.. .He did not meatien this•as wrong,: because however .he might wish £ 0 see economy praClised, 'h e alway s : wished to.see prees btw s i v ' oe b i i e. s b t 7h l t l m i e j oi c i i d eu c o e eca l ) lii s i f e we p s res o e f nt.' t i h rrs e ta i na. le -- e, \ . Vi th ti e t r r e ek: v ir ; paid well for their lab murso onit been ling a o n n d e a t b h o a u t t .% w vl a mi s c , ll to say' a , fear words, tfith:l;erattihviishueedh Sala ri es observations v s 97 a l sea l tyre Debts hem" taken off by - Cdiildi Pehts of His loyal Highness. lie by no means meant to Contend-that, uuder all the circumst ances, P rSil n On t. PrS . f rom wiiicl : i ;e t; l t' 'the Pomm:”ioners were wro n g in making that.d e " but o r , the other' hand, it would not .be contended that there was any thing improper in the Prince thinking.that he was bound ro make tiiith!, deficiency, as a-debt ofhonour. He begged aft° to state, that although he was.aCtuated by feelingsfi friendship to the, Prince (and if it - was not p 1 47 sumptuous he would say, ofpersonal friendship) Yet in the part he teak upon this occasion he %vimsguida ed soleiy by what he considefed to be his duty as 3 Member of Parliament.—ln the comforts of the . Prince, as an individual, he ShoUld always be i n ; terested ; but it was .for ptoper dignity and splendor as PrinCe of Wales for which he w a s no/ arguing.--=He knew that by what he was now say ing -he migh t perhaps lose some -popularity, but it was his fixed opinion that the previous inetunbrancc2 Of the Prince of \Vales ought to be discharged, and 'even if any debts had been incurred since m there was nothing df exir;R:4 lg ance . in them, hey ought to be paid.—The Prince had stated in his come - thunication to time House, that he could not, five° if the proposition of Ministers were adopted', resume his' dignity; the Ministers knew the season' why he could not; and he rhought.the House ought to know the reason also, because no limey-secret ought, to be kept from the H6Ose—t)pon the whole, Ile, saw no reason why this inquiry should not - be in stituted, but he saw many conveniencies that Mighe result from it ; he should therefore give'his vote tot the original Motion., The.CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Hon, Gentleman who had just sat citiwno had referred to what lie had 'supposed to be an ex traordinary proceeding which took place previoug to the execution of the Order o f th e 'H o use an dr day preceding tlie Add ress which had been Presen ed to His Majesty on' th e farbjeCt now before time ie House,"to which he mast observe, a hat if the-Hoti- Gentlernan had staid:in the H ouse a very few minute . after - their amieß left the Ch a ir, upon a Motion to take His Majesty's 'Gr a ci ous M ess age into don, - `tideration,. he Would have heard - him ststeto die `HOose his intention to propose to proceed . on the following day to St. James's, and he would not have expefted that 'after proceeding to St. Jaints' s with char Addreis, the. House ivould return andagf ceed to other business on the sille.daya He thought it'a mark of respeCt to the Prime (if Wales, nor to delay that proceeoing longs t than the forms of the House required. li, however, any delay until Fri day had been required upon any justifiable ground , in that delay he should have acquit seed ; nool4eftion was made from any quarter to the coarse which the House was then purftting. '' If the_Hondarabie Gentleman, tsaid - Mr. AnomantoN) heard the Motion, he ought to have objected then ; if he' did sot' hear it, lam cot to blame." He then :ceded to say, that :he present Motion was 'CO Way I' P 'r in