The Sun. — London, England, 1839-06-19 00:00:00

EVENING FDITION. l'-IPERIAL PARLIAYIEN T. - HOUSE O.F LORDS, JUNE 18 The LOSS CIIANCELLQU Lt)Qk at c the o'Cloek. Lord BROUGHAM presented petitions fe om Maid stone, and several other places, in favour of the adoption of a penny postage. Earl of WICKLOW said that when the Bill for the Aboliti on o f I mpr i sonmen t f or D e bt was i n troduced "st Session, he pointed out to the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack the policy of introducing a similar MI With respect to Leland. far the purpose of aas,milat rg the le g i s l at i on f or t h e t wo cou n t r i e s. He wish e d to now.from the Node and Learned Lord whether any steps sad be en r aken in that respect, as he at the time under stood that the Noble and Learned Lord approved of the so mstion. Tye LORD CHANCELLOR said that he had en t approved of the suggestion—that a Bill was in pro.. Kress for the purpose, which would very soon be laid on t4 ' l'ble. It would have been introduced before now had it 11 ,,°t been f or s ome diffi cu lty th e e b a d a r i s en from the nature ° I the law affecting insolvent debtors in Ireland. The Bialiop of EXETER laid, on the table a Bill for IPPortioning the spiritual duties of persens who had the are of souls in two or more parishes. The Bill was read 16rst- time, and ordered to be read a secocd time on , atonday next. Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved for certain returns oPecting the numb e r of beer-shop keepers through itthe country, which he thought would be useful patting the ev en t o f th e Bill now b e f ore their Lordships net through the other House of Parliament. th ‘ 3l 'd BROUGHAM said, that nothing could be proper than to have the returns which the O rd was e nti re ly mi s tak e n i n hi s pr o gno s is as to the Bill , a , ° t passing through the House of Commons. He had an d the subject, and he had consulted others upon it, " a d he had no doubt, whatever, that notwithstanding the E xclu s i ve pr i v il eges o f t h e ot h er H ouse o f P ar li amen t, this Bill was strictly entitled to pass through that House. Lord DUNCANNON sa id t h at t h e N o bl e M arqu i s i ' li rPosite (W night,estmeath), b p ad ut as now two questions to i nt last which he w prepared to., Vswer. In reference to the 100,0001. wh!ch had advanced by the Board of , Works to the tttesiastical Commissipners that was to be t !Psid back, anl that until' it had been repaid the Ecele 11stteal Commissioners were to pay 4 per cent, for the e • They had been applied to for the payment, and it Per their int ent i on t o di sc h ar g e th e debt. As to the 75 P" cent. which was. stated to have been the amount to be 1 : 14 to the Clogy, no sects official statement had been 4 q o , - nor could it be until it was known what the amount t ° be received would be. ~1 1 .110 Earl of WICKLOW said that that 100,000/. was 'armed out o f t h e 1,000,000/. w hi c h was vote d t o th e Ltaard of Works for the Church, and therefore, when it iss rep a id b y t h e E cc l es i ast i ca l C omm i ss i oners to t h at Ird, it ought, in justice. to be applied to the Church. Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that the Church Tem poralities' Bill had now been in operation five years, and e e etract of it had been just what he had predicted—an en are failure. Loral WHARNCLIFFE moved that certain re litss be laid en the table, relative to the number of Pserd s that had been offered by the Lord-Lieutenant of k e land, for the di scover y o f off en d ers in that country in '4 e year 1837. t Lord RODEN presente d a pet i t i on f rom B at h, pray i ng cir the better regulations of prisons. %Ile rands Juries (Ireland) Amendment Act Bill passed , I. t i'agh a Cemittee. ph rd RED ESDALE presented a petition from some tbe name of which we could not catch, against the ss ernment plan of national education. 4 4 message from the House or Commons brought up L ta in Bills. Papers from the Poor.law Commissioners Rh o,, presented and laid on the table. at Merquis of NORMAN B Y laid on the table copies correspondence. a l : t e h e Borough Courts Bill was passed through Cm-n -ate,. f tt i ord BROUGHAM moved the postponement of the aa dbes cons . dcration of the Education Bill to Monday, ? f the Beer Bill to Tuesday next, which was agreed to. s tt The Marquis of WESTMEATH complained of the 141 , 18 stoe of ce•taie portions of the evideace in the pa -4- t ons which had been laid on the table relative to the trans. ia,,,Ts which had taken place . at Mullingar, and stated . he vostpone his motion on that subject, which of nld afforii the Noble M irquis °pats site an opportuoity " t !'eountie g for those omissions. Merquis of NORM A NBY said that there was no p a in the evidence that he was aware of, and that the Papers were laid on the table as received from Mr. Brook. a The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition I ril Warminster in favour of the Government plan of edu ction. %The LORD CHANCELLOR brought in a Bill for 4better regulation of the Court of Common Pleas, which 8 read a first time ; after which the House adjourned, at 'quart e r to Six o'Clock. Liis seat on the Wor.ls&ek HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 18. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. CARLOW ELECTION COMMITTEE. ti e k r•IGROTE brought up a report from the Carlow te, et iOn.Committee, stating that the Committee had met 1, 4 teisraing and had received a letter from John Broclsle rte.t;lttscf., a Member of that Committee, stating that he had ti lik ':!ect intelligence of the death of his father, and begging e ue Blight be excused from further attendance on the He found that there were two precedents ex ettZin which Members had been excused from further l teele:,`''e on Election Committees under similar circum. e u t ed b9 - Ali e one was in 1830, when Lord Viscount Milton 'lec t i n ell eXeused from further attendance on the l3ridport rela ti "rt Committee on account of th e death of a near ex en . ° o , and in 1837 Lord Viscount Mandeville had been e n en fr om f urt her attendance on the Ilchester Election hr"4ll r litten under simitar circumstances ; acting on these e eedent s , he moved that John Brocklehurst, Esq., be ex lstd fromfurther reed to attendance on t h e C arlow Election otntnitfee. f Ag. Allison's Divorce Bill was read a second time, and or dered to be committed. Coode's Divorce Bill was read a third time and passed. VOTE BY BALLOT. Colonel SALWEY presented petitions very numerously *`fined from the town of Shrewsbury, praying fur Vote by $ allot; also anoth e r t o th e same e ff ect from Ludlow. NATIONAL EDUCATION. vaptain ALSAGER presented a petition from the IDorough of Southwark, against any scheme of national Ildt!e:t.tion n ot f oun d e d on t h e W or d of God. The Hon. ': 3 eber also pr e s en t e d s i m il ar petitions from St. Marga ret„4' and St. Gabri e l, Fonchurch-street. ' G. STAUNTON presented a petition from Ports. 14 euth, in favour of the Vote by Ballot. Mr. COURINGTON presented a petition from Glou et,ters in favour of religious instruction. I a ". DUNBAR presented a petition from Belfast in ',yor of a uniform penny post. 4. 81 r W. BENTINCK presented a petition from Hamp. Ir Q against the Government plan of national education. tu Lorcr F. EGERTON pres'ented a petition from Lan. je a • hi re, signed by 14 000 persons, against the Government n of eduaatien. 1t 1.% LANG DALE presented petitions from Knaresbe -irgh and Beverley, in favour of Vote by Ballot. The tit rt• Member also presented a petition in favour of gene ..enueation, without any religious distinction. 4 tr Sergeant TA LFOUR D presented a petition from Reading, in favour of Vote by Ballot. Petitiolis praying for the establishment of Mr. R. Hill's 411 of penny postage, were presented by Mr. PUsEY ; 4 ' 4 Mr. .M. PHILLIPS, from the workers in several works Ceorlton. He would only call the attention of the ° Usr , to the neatness of the signatures attached to them. govt!Petitions against the Government plan of Education, by Biewitt, from Nloninouthshire, Major Scarlet, Lord J. erset, and Mr. Richards. BALLOT. Mr. H . BERKELEY presented a petition from ristol, signed in four days by 8,658 persons, praying for tee protection of the Ballot. . Petiti o n s to the same effect were presented by Mr. b il glionb y , f rom C oc k ermou th ; by Mr. J. S tuar t a nd Sir rd• L. Bulwer, from Lincoln. Mr. GRE ENE presented a petition from Lancaster, a gainst the Ballot—it was signed by the Chairman of a meeting. t e , 141 % M. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition from "nkenny, praying • for an alteration in the law of salmon 4sheries in Ireland. es Sir H. PARNELL presented a petition from the "erehatits, bankers, &c., of Liverpool, praying for an e q u alization of the duties on Sugar and Coffee. 1 1 Mr. HUME presented five petitions in favour of a Penny postage from Kilkenny. A petition from the Se eessiori Church of Dunse against the monopoly of printing th e k , Bible. The Hon. Member also presented a petition e _ . "` a ting that the greatest evil under which Ireland la. 'unred was the Established Church, by which an effusion °f blood had been caused unparalleled in modern times, ' t ,beingelie practice of that Church to urge the State to hang, I nOot transport, or imprison from time to time, some of the Pr pia! peasantry, in older to make the remainder fond of the when compelled by the activity of other sects to educate t he people o f their own, took care to educate them as little as possible.—(Cries of " Order.") He must either give as abstiect of the petition or read it.—( Order, order.) the SPEAKER said the Hon. Member was entitled , state the material facts. If he wished the petition tobe re ad he must give it to the clerk at the table. Mr. HUME then asked leave to bring up the petition, t ulti have it read by the clerk. Sir R. INGLIS objected that there was no motion be fore the chair. Mr. HUME—I move that the petition be read. Sir R INGLIS said if such a course was pursued by t he Hon. Member, ha must expect it to be followed by °til ers. , The SPEAKER having read the rule as to petitions, that Members were to state the substance," &c., Mr. WARBURTON advised his Hon. Friend to re sume the petitien, and finish reading the substantial alle. g 4t i° , lB —( Ilear.) Mr. HUME was quite ready to agree to that ; he had but to read one more sentence, which was the prayer., egainst the Irish Church Establishment. Lord C. FITZROY presented a petition from Bury St. Edmund's, in favour of the Ballot. Mr. HIND LE Y p resen t e d a petition to the sam e e ff ec t from Stamfori. f Si r B. HA LL presented petitions from Marylebone, in r oour of M r. R ow l an d Hill' s p l an o f post age a l so i n esvou r of the Ballot. Mr. CRAWFORD presented a petition from a Ward i n the Ca% of London, in fevour of a penny postage. Captein PECH E L L pe-sented apetition from Brighton, Sr i tt , our of V:,t, by 11.11ot ; alto a petition from th Ltter,l 7 , Society of BriOiton, in favour of a penny postage. Mr PRYNIE presented a petition, signed by 400 in 0413:tants 4 ('. ,, abridg e , in favour 4 the Vote be Willot. „ Sir EORGE STRICKLAND presznted a petition Irore Tfeleester in favour of the vote by Ballot. Tue liirtier Report on the South .Eastern Railway Bill nac brought up, and the Bill read a second time. LONDON AND BLACKWALL RAILWAY. On Ole ni on for the ecmsiileration of the further Re port GI the Conanittee on the Cornmercid Lonflon and Blackwall Railway Bill. Mr. CRAW FORD said that he should oppose the fur ther consideration of the 13111. It vv , .uld be in the recol lection of 1-lon. Memkers that the Bill had been opposed on the second readinif. One of the objections was that the promoters of the Bill had been guilty of a breach of faith. After a discussion, the Bill bad been sent to the Committee, and it had been agreed that the, railrcad should terminate without entering the eastern boundary of the City of London. The first clause de clared that they should not lay down any rails within six hundred feet of the boundary of the City ; and the second clause declared that the Company should not possess any land within the City of London. It bad been the opinion of the House, by a small majority, that the Bill should go., into Committee, with a view to give the parties concerned an opportunity of showing that they could make cut a ca , e for the rescinding of the Rgrtetne..t. It was now his duty to show how far they had succeeded in making out such a case. His first object would be to examine - their conduct with refer;•r.ce to the declaration made in conformity with the Standing Orders of that 11:use. In 1836 certain Orders were made which regulated the delivery of the list. before the Standing Orders. Committee, and under the first of those Orders the declaration had been made which stated that the Railway Company had sufficient funds under the control of the Directors to do that which they desired to do by this Rill, and that therefore it would not be necessary to increase the tolls, as they would have a surplus after perfecting the works in which they were now engaged. Now in the course of the inquiry before the Committee it was . . proved that in the sum of 465,0001., which had be , n esti mated as the anmunt of the expense of the railway, a great number of expenses had been n omitted. He stated th 6 for the purpose of showing how incorrect the statements that bad been made were, and how little, therefore, were they to he depended upon. Another part of the declaration was that the Company bad the power of borrowing 200,0001. under their Bill. He thought no suer] power existed, but if it did it was conditional.—( Hear.) The constitutional authority for raising a loan of 200,0001. had not arisen. It was right that he should notice what Ile considered to be the grounds upon which the opponents to his views acted in Committee. It was urged by them that the case having been before the Committee on -Stand ing Orders, and having been considered by them, the Committee on the Bill had nothing to do with it. Now if Honourable Members would look at the 6th instruction as well as at the 22d, they Would find that if they had been attended to the Corn m:ttee on the Bill had not only to consider the case but ought to have made special report upon the subject. Before he could explain to the House the particulars of the ex tension sought for by the promoters of the 1111 it would be necessary for him to show what were the powers granted to the Company by the Bill of 1836, and also the manner in which those powers had been carried into effect. There was to be a continuous line of arches forming a viaduct, over which the line was to run. lc was to be of the width of 46 feet, and there were to be four lines of railroad. Since then the Direct Ors had taken it upon themselves to make these alterations; they had reduced the width from 46 feet to 20 feet. There were now to be only two lines of railway, and it was pro posed that these two lines were to be worked by means of a stationary engine. This was a new attempt, one which had rover yet been made on any railroad at work in this country. This firmed such an entire change as would render it im- practicable. It was an attempt at a system which bad ovver yet been practised, and was unsupported, except by the testimony of one person.—( Cries of " Question," and " divide.") He was sorry the House did not seem disposed to listen to the few observations which he bad to offer, but could not do his duty to those who sent him there unless be received the indulgence of the House. —( Hear; hear.) By the plan of the Railway . Company, the gradients were entirely altered. The promoters (Idle Bill said they should use neither locomotive power nor stationary power for carrying on their communication in the City. .ft was tree they desired to go 415 yards into the Ci'y, but they sai,i they would effect this by the power of momentum—that was, that the carriages should from tra veiling at the rate of 27 miles an hour receive such an impetus as would make them ascend 27 feet in height. They were to make their way to . Fenchurch-street, where they were to stop. In returning, the car riages were to descend by the force of gravity. The distance of the proposed extension was 450 yards, and the rough estimate of the expense was 153,0001., that being, at the rate of 3501. per yard ; this was conclusive as the value of the property to be destroyed : and besides, there was a great amount of property scheduled, but not provided for by the Company, valued at 361,0001., the Company having decided that they were entitled to sche dule this, unprovided for as it was, because the Company said they were still entitled to claim a right to take it. This decision was contrary to all the usual principles of estimating. Towards the close of the proceedings a clause had been proposed, not printed in the original Bill. In 1836 there were two contending parties, who had each a subsc,iption list for 600,0001.-12,000 shares at 501.—• with the consent of the Committee these two parties joined and made a list of 24,000 shares at 251.—a smaller sum than had before been known for railway shales. The Committee, however, im posed the restriction that all the subscriptions must be paid up before borrowing should be resorted to, and the effect of the " pocket" clause, which was now attempted to be brought in, would be to allow the Company to borrow two hundred thousand pounds, without that restriction—a permision not given before; and it was only by chance that this clause had been discovered. At the half.yearly meeting which took place on the 30th of August last, a Report was made by the Directors to the Proprietors, in which they stated they were not allowed to borrow money until the whole of their subscribed capital was paid up ; that that was an unusual restriction, and they proposed to apply to Parliament to be relieved from it ; and it further stated that if they were so relieved, it would then be for the consideration of the Proprietors whether there should be any further call or not. There was but one other observation which he would make, and that was in reference to the condition in which the railroad now stood with the East and West India Dock Company, as re garded the use of the Brunswick Wharf. Up to this time the Railway Company had no power of access to the wharfs on the river Thames. No authority had as yet been given to the Railroad Company to embark or disembark passengers at the Brunswick wharf.----( Cries of Q ues tion, Question.") He was not at all sur prised at that interruption, but that interruption was only from those who had come there for a particular pur pose; but such interruption would never deter him from doing his duty as long ati he had a seat in that House. The present was a tender subject with those who were de sirous that it should not be understood.—( Cries of Oh, oh, and Divide.) It seemed to him that it' the present Bill was allowed to pass into a law the Company as now con stituted would receive the sanction of the House for al the malf,•asance of which it had been guilty.—(Cries of Divide, divide.) In conclusion, the Hon. Member trusted the House would not permit the Bill to proceed further, Lord TEIGN MOUT H bad heard the statements made by the Hon. Member with utter astonishment. He had sat for twenty-one days, four hours each day, and both himself and his constituents were perfectly satisfied that the railroad would prove a vast benefit to the com munity, and that was his impartial opinion after Waving heard all the evidence. He would there fore give it his most hearty concurrence. He held in his hand a paper containing the whole of the figures taken before the Committee, and they showed clearly that there would be a surplus of 106,0001. in the hands of the Company, and that upon a very fair esti mate. The Honourable Gentleman complained of technicalities respecting the Standing Orders, but the Committee on the Bill had nothing at all to do with the standing orders he quarrelled with the eng.neering accounts, but the Committee had had before them some of the most eminent engineers in the country, and their estimates had been given in such a clear and distinct manner as to prove per. fectly satisfactory to the Committee. The benefit of this Railroad would be very great. If the terminus were to be at the Minories, the neighbouring streets must be crowded by the immense traffic which would be distributed in the neighbourhood, whereas the proposed terminus brought it up at once upon the spot at which it was to be distributed. The Hon. Gentleman complained of the annoyance to which the inhabitants would be put, but it was clearly proved that there would be no noise from the passing of the train. He would give his cordial support to the Bill. Mr, D. W. HARVEY said that having presented .a petition signed by upwards of 400 inhabitants, owners, and occupiers of property in the immediate vicinity of the proposed line of railway, it became his duty to state the con tents of their petition, and be felt great satisfaction in stating that the course he was pursuing was precisely that which he proposed on a former occasion, and it was essential be should say this, because, the promoters of the Bill had incurred the serious expense of inserting in all the Morning Papers a long extract from some remarks which ho made upon the first introduc tion of the Railway Bill. He was then the advo cate of the railroad, because he felt the importance of clearing the Pool of the inconvenience occasioned by its being so crowded, and the company then got all they wanted—a line from Blackwell to the Mino ries, and now they were asking to bring it into the heart of the city of London. They obtained a Bill to clear the Pool of all these inconveniences, and yet in 1839 they had scarcely done anything to wards its accomplishment. Why was this delay ?—be cause they had not matured the plan of combination, then flitting before their eyes, of bringing two important bodies into co. operation ; but they had now secured the direct co operation of the East and West. India Dock Companies. The object of the Bill was now to establish a monopoly from the Blackwell Docks to Fenchurch-street. The pe titioners called upon the House to preserve their property from wanton violation. The original report of the Com mittee was that a terminus on the eastern side of the Minories was a complete terminus for the purpose. Was there any evidence before the Committee, to show that the per sons expected to use the railroad would use it less, because it went no further than the Miner es? Quite the reverse. Only one engineer had been examined, and he stated that be believed the railroad, at first projected, would run 10,000 daily though he expected it would have an increased traffic if it proceeded to the Minories. Was the trifling increase contemplated a fair compensation for the vast destruction of property required by the proposed extension of the line? 415 yards were to be proposed to be purchased at a sum of 200,0001. In fact, something less than a million of money was to be given for a mile of railroad. 'Who were to have the uae of it ? Not the public—it was to be confined entirely to the proprietors of • the East and West India Docks. The consequence would be that instead of there being a Railroad in a large and compre-, hensive sen e, it was an excellent contrivance to bring two pieces of private property together. The eff.ct of it would be in every way highly injurious to the public. He did not hesitate to say, after a I close and personal irspec'.ion of the locality of Blackwell, that instead of taking people from the I Minories, or from Fencliurch-street to the water side, it would only take them down to the East India Dock property, for the use or which property they would have to pay as a property distinct and unconnected with the Irailroad. .Gentletnen who read the Reports would find it was not till after the Committee had drawn up their Report that it was found there was a secret article of agreement between the Share holders of the Railroad and the Directors of the Docks. He was sure the Noble Lord oppositl (Lord Teignmouth) :could concur with him in that. The terms of that secret compact was that the Company should be a Rail road Company only as carriers, and that the proprietors of the Docks should be wharfingers ; that as wharfingers they should impose a charge on the public; that the Railroad Proprietors should impose another charge On the public, and thus two impositions were in flicted. Whereas, if the original purpose of the Bill bad been carried out, the Railroad would not have gone on to the East India Docks at all, but would step short at' Blackwall Stairs.—( Hear, hear. ) The Blackw•all Stairs were public property, from which all parties could embark. The Company had chosen not to hold out any benefit to the public. but had allied themselves with the East India Dock Company to the great pre judice of the public. It was a great mistake to say that this was a railroad from London to Blackwall, it was a line of commuoie,tion from London to all the trading ports in the world, and yet the reception of goods was to be confined to the Dock Company. Such being the case, it was clear that a most dangerous monopoly would be established. Further than this, were the House prepared to sanction a measure 'wh'eh would pour thousands at a time into a small space. If upon an average 10,000 persons were brought into London in a day, it was not improbable that on some days there would %)e an influx of 40,000 or 50,000, and no man could cal cu late the extent of the inconvenience and danger that would he the consequence. An eminent surveyor who had looked at the property had also said that the property would, in the immediate neighbourhood. be deteriorated to an extent from 40 to 60 per cent. The customers of the butchers, b lers, and grocers would be removed, and wherewas there compensation to come from ? They could have none, and that was a reason why that House should pro tect them. Let the railroad be formed from Black. wall to the Minories—see how that would answer, and if hereafter it should be found useful or ex. pedient to bring it into the city, then it would be time enough after the experiment bad been made.— (Cries of Question, question.") Mr. CLAY would not occupy the House many minutes, hut as the representative of the Tower Hamlets, he felt bound to make an observation or two. He wished to dis cbarge his duty properly, but he feared that in whatever way he voted his vote would be the subject of misconstruction. The Legislature had sanctioned the railroad from Bleck wall to the Minories, and as soon as that sanction had been given the greater part of the objections of his constituents had been overruled, because 19-20ths of the disturbance of the private property complained of had been allowed to take place. The principal injury was to tradespeople, and that hal been sanctioned. Bringing it into Fen church-street might destroy some houses occupied by mer chants as counting-houses, but that would only be a tempo rary inconvenience. As to the objection of the lion. Member who bad just sat down, that there was no access to the water from Blackwall, surely it was not to be sail that because Parliament allowed persons to form a rail way, that therefore it ought to make them watermen. Besides, the Company had the means of making a most convenient entrance to the water. Upon the whole, he should feel bound to vote in favour of the measure. Mr. PRYME rose amidst cries of " Divide, divide, question, question." lie considered that this was a pub he Bill in point of fact, though a private Bill by name, and that so far from its being calculated to support a monopoly, it was quite the reverse. He did not speak merely from the evidence that he had read on the subject, but from ocular demonstration, as he had taken two journeys down to Blackwall this year.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) The great object of the Bill sas s to facili tate conveyance from the East India Docks into the City of London, and he was of opinion it would he most useful in that respect. lie spoke from no interested motive—he had no connection with any party or power connected with the undertaking. His mind was completely a piece of white paprr.--( Cries of " White bait, white bait," and much laughter.) Until he came to the consideration of the question before the House, therefore, he should vote without any bias on one side or Ihe other. The House divided, when there appeared— For bringing up the Report Against it 73 Majority in favour of the The Report was then brought up. BANK OF IRELAND. Mr. HUME gave notice, that on Friday next, or on the first supply day, he should call the attention of the House to the Report of the Select Committee on Joint-stock Banks, and move a resolution declaring that• it is expedient that the exclusive privileges and monopoly enjoyed by the Bank of Ireland should be discontinued, in order that the people of Ireland may possess the same privileges in regard to the establishment of Banks that the people of Scotland at pre sent enjoy. The Hon. Member then moved for certain accounts connected with the Bank of Englar.d. THE BUDGET. In answer to a question from Mr. HUME, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that on Friday, sth of July, he should move certain resolu tions with a view to the introduction of a uniform rate of postage, and he should take that opportunity of bringing forward his financial statement. • JOINT STOCK BANKS. Mr. HUME wished to know when the Right Hon. Gen tleman intended to bring forward any measure for the re gulation of Joint S!oek Banks. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if the Hon. Gentleman had not been out. of town, he would have been aware that,he bad already stated his in tentions in regard to that subject. It scan his intention during the present week to bring in a Bill renewing the measure of last year. Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice that when the Bud get was brought forward be should draw the attention of the House to the necessity that existed for reducing the duties on Fire Insurances. In reply to a question from an HON. MEMBER, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that some provisions relating to Joint Stock Banks would be introduced into the Bill for the regulation of the Bank of Ireland. DANISH CLAIMS. Mr. CRE SSWELL said that knowing the interest that was taken in the motion of which the Hon. Member for the City of London had given notice for that evening, it was with great reluctance that he pressed himself upon the attention of the House, but he feared that he should not get another opportunity of bringing forward this sub ject. Ho would not detain the House long, be could state the facts to the House, in a few minutes—the question was a perfectly simple one. It was not his intention to enter into the particulars of the losses which had occurred in 1807. The question had been discussed last year, and settled by the opinion of a considerable majority, and as he could not believe that the House would now consent to rescind the vote to which it had come last year. he would not enter into the discussion of that part of the subject, unless he should be forced to do so by the con duct which the Chancellor of the Exchequer might pursue. The simple question was what was the meaning of the vote of last year—as to the meaning of that vote the Right Hon. Gentleman and himself were at issue. If he were right the House, should follow up the vote of last year by a e reeing to his motion. It was well-known that several merchants, subjects of this country, ha:l suffered losses in consequence of the seizure of their property by the Danish Government in 1807, at the time of the attack on Copen hagen by this country. From time to time the subject had been brought forward, and other persons had put for ward their claims, stating that they were entitled to receive compensation for these losses. In 1834 the Government yielded, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Althorp, stated that he was satisfied of the justice of those el aims. In consequence, directions were given to the Com missioriers for examining French claims to receive and exa mine the Danish claims 'I he Commissionersconsidered these directions as empowering them not only to receive these claims, but to investigate them for the purpose of escer tainitig whether they were just or unjust. Every one must feel that it was incumbent on them to have taken that course ; what signified it being informed that there were a certain number of persons who had made claiMs for com pensation to a certain amount, unless they were at the same time informed whether those claims were just or unjust. The Commissioners had stated that claims had been made amounting to five or six hundred thousand pounds, and they had adjudicated on about 140,0001., which they had decided were just claims. There were two separate classes of claimants which the House had determined were entitled to compensation. The first class consisted of those English merchants who were owed debts at the time by Danish subjects, which debts were confiscated, the Da nish Government having ordered these debts to be paid into the public treasury. Another class consisted of those whose goods on shore had been seized—this class was at first objected to, but it was afterwards allowed that theirs constituted a case for investigation. Some of these per sons had omitted to brine - forward their claims within the time allowed by the Order in Council for their so doing, and, in 1837, the Hon. Member for Bridport bad brought forward their case in that House. The Hon. Member for Bridport, on that occasion, moved that an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Mujesty would be graciously pleased to direct the Dansh Commis sioners to enter upon the examination of those claims. That address was agreed to, and her Majesty had been graciously pleased to comply with its prayer. That instruction must have authorised them to proceed to adjudication, because on the occasion of that address the Chancellor of the Exchequer had provided funds for the purpos e of meet ing those claims. He could not see any difference in principle between those whose goods had teen seized and confiscated on shore, and those whose goods had been seized and confiscated on board ship, together with the ships on board which were those goods. The House had adopted his views in that address to her Majesty, and he hod couched his address in precisely the same terms as those of the address of the Hon. Mentberlor Bridport. Therefore the instructions were the same, the Treasury Minutes were the same in substance, but the results pro duced a most extraordinary difference—whether there were any private instructions or not he did not know, but it was most curious, but no less curious than true, that the results had been different. He could undersfand that there might have been some reason why the House should not be told what the amount of the claim was, because the -House might have been terrified by its being a large amount. He would ask the House whether they did or did not in their vote of last year adopt the principle that those who had their ships seized should be indemnified ? If they did adopt that principle, then Ile would ask why should they not adopt the course he proposed to pursue, namely granting an address to her Majesty, praying that she would betraciously pleased to direct the Com missioners to adjudicate upon this claim? The Right Hon. Gent. opposite, upon his asking the question had told him that he bad not directed the Commissioners to adjiidieete, because the case was very different from that which was before Parliament. Uuless the House was pre eared to rescind the vote that it came to last session, they must follow it up by voting the address. He LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 19, 1839. Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the present was a f time.: - Injustice had ben done throughout—(Hear)--1 very different ease altogeth er to t h e quest i on t h at was di s . b ut h e h ope d t h e 11 use wou ld d o j ust i ce now. I n sup- I cussed last year ehe could not agree with the Right portieg tleis mot. . i , e did not consi;ler that he pledged 1 Hon. Gentleman in that statement; the matter i,'-.5 then hims if to a money vote, but he considered himself bound very fully discussed, the money was voted, and then a ' to assist in ascertaining what the claims of the parties Minister of the Crown had taken the judgment of the were, and if 501. or 500,0001. was fairly due to them it House, and that judgment was against him, he thought it would not become the Government of a great country like was uncalled for that he should persevere against the this to withhold payment of that which was justly due._ sense of the House. If the present trap ion was ( Much cheering.) The address was a proper address to granted then the means would be bad of knowing be moved, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought not what the parties were entitled to, and then they to oppose it.—(Criesof " Divide.") would be enabled to- see whether the Chancellor Lord JOHN RUSSELL was rather alarmed at the of the Exchequer would say, after two votes doctrine propounded by the Hon. Member who had just against him, that he would not consent to the present vote sat down. He stated that it was an extraordinary war, The Hon. and Learned Member concluded by moving— and that it had been commenced in a most unusual " That an humble Address be presented to her Majesty, manner, and especially as thirty-two years had praying that she will be graciously pleased to direct the elapsed, the claims of the parties more particularly Commissioners to whom it was referred to examine the merited the 'attention of the House. He (the Noble claims of certain British subjects, in respect of losses sus- Lord) was afraid that if the House laid down the principle twined by the seizure of- ships and cargoes by the Danish that they were consider all claims that might be presented Government in 1807, to proceed to adjudicate upon the to them, and that lapse of time was to be considered an claims which they have received, and upon which they additional recommendation of the claims to the attention hayi‘eir.mtaidue BUTT R se e e p o o n r d t etiod to nstubb t :_v h ei e ecmint: L t o io r n d . s of her Majesty's of the House—if the Hon. Member was to send that forth Treasury." as an advertisement, the House would very soon be inun dated by claims; and if they were to entertain the present The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERcouId claims, he did not know why claims in the time of the war h h v a i t n -e gi a n i g sb n e n d th th e at p t r h es e en i in 1797 should not be sent in —nor, indeed why claimants be: h h e a n d i t t a w ke n n ul a d n h i a g v h e t i f n o_r should not be found to go back to the time of Charles the The Hon, that and he (thenot having Chan terfercd less with other busi ness , an d w h en i t m i g h t h ave Second. The H ouse o f C ommons m i g h t d epen d upon i t been discussed more calmly th an i t poss ib ly could on t h at that if it entertai ne d th ese c l a i ms f or l osses i n t i mes l ong fitthe to pursue Exchequer) k new t h e d i ff i culty there would gone by, the House would v e ry soon have scarcely any thoughtthing else to do than to hear th e mer it s o f c l a i ms argue d. e e evieineievening. ' of f . He hoped the House would not continue the discussion of be to obtain the attention of the House to the subject, the subject unless it was prepared to pay millions in the when one of great public interest was about to be brought satisfaction of claims of one description or another that - forward, yet he felt bound, i n di sc h arge of h i s d uty, might be brought forward, to call the attention of the H ouse to the pr i nc i p l es i n . • Lord SANDON would put the que s ti on a t p resen t on volved in the claim of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer had acted in He would not go into details on this question, but he would accordance with the assurance which he gave to the House shortly state to the House the . ground upon which he felt on a former occasion, or whether he was not now going in it to be his duty to resist th e p resent motion. In the year di rec t v ar i ance w ith th a t assurance . Th e a dd ress now 1835 he had proposed a vot e o f 130,000/. for the rel i e f o f proposed was upon the [sane footing as the address that the sufferers in the Danish squadron. In 1836 he had. had been agreed to before, and he thought it ou g ht no t t o proposed a further vote of 78,00 0 1 . for the same purpose ; b e o pp ose d. and in the estimates of the present year he had proposed The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could 87,4811. for the same purpose, making a total of 295,481/. assure the House that he believed he now took the same which had already been voted for this purpose. He ad. course that he had always taken when this question bad verted to this for the purpos e o f showing that there come under discussion. He was not now prepared to pro. was no desire on the part of t h e G overnment not pose an estimate, and therefore he could not take a dit to give relief in cases that had been made out. ferent step at present to what he bad before taker,. The ground of distinction between the cases that Sir STRATFORD CANNING was ready to had already been relieved, and those brought forward admit the principle on which the Right Honourable by the Hon. and Learned Vernber was, that in the case of Gentleman had placed his opposition on this oc the former class of claimants the wrong sustained was easier], but still it was to be recoll,cted that a war contrary to the usages of civilized warfare, while in the expedition had been sent out to Denmark, when almost all present instance the claimants had not sustained any such mankind thought this country was in a state of profound wrong, the wrong having been sustained in the customary peace with Denmark, and that that war was undertaken course of ordinary hostility. The question for the con- with the utmost secresy of intention, so that the shipping sideration of the House was, whether it would now for the trade was exposed to unusual danger.—(Hear, hear. ) first time sanction the principle that subjects of the Crown •Certainly it was but fair, with a view to satisfy the spirit having sustained an injury under circumstances that were of justice of the country, that inquiries should be entered recognised by the law of nations, might come to that House upon as to these claims. arid ask for compensation. If such a principle was to Mr. GOULBURN could not but adhere to the opinions be recognised, he would ask where was the war lie had always expressed on this subject. He objected to in which the subjects of the Crown did Oct sustain damage ? setting the example of listening to these claims. If this and if they were to be allowed to come to that House for precedent was laid down, applications would be Con.. the purpose of obtaining an indemnity, no gentleman tinually made, from time to time, of a similar sort, and living could contemplate the extent to which those de- every night would be occupied with the discussion of them. mends might be made? Such was the distinction between The lion. Member for Kilkenny had put it upon this, that the two cases, and such were his reasons in not calling the Foreign-office would not tell the merchants whether upon the House to take any steps to affirm the li a bility of this country was going to war or not with Denmark. He the country to make good losses sustained in ordinary war- would put it to the House to say whether the Foreign fare. It was true that a great public principle was in• office was bound to state such a thing to merchants gene volved in this subject, but if he had entertained any doubt rally ? This proceeding meant nothing, unless it meant before upon it, that doubt had been removed and turned into a money vote, and he for one must oppose it. certainty by the statements of the Hon. and Learned Colonel SIBTHORP wished to ask the Right Hon. Member—for what had he said ? Why, that because the Gentleman opposite, whether the Foreign-office did . not House had affirmed the address, to which the assent of the tell the merchants that they were in a perfect state of Crown was not required, that therefore it must be taken safety as far as a war was in question ? to have effirnied the proposition for a money vote. He has The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said put it fairly enough on that ground now, and he calls upon if the Gallant Colonel wished to have an answer to that tile House to say, that because they have previously vote d question, he must put it to one who was responsible for an address, that therefore they were bound to vote the what passed at. the Foreign Office at that time. money. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman seemed to Mr. WARBURTON said. the question before the think that because he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) House was not whether it was fitting or not that money had not acted with respect to this subject as he had should be granted to those claimants. The only question with respect to the others, that therefore there was a was, whether reasonable expectation was not held out to necessity for the address he had moved for. Now he must them that the Commissioners should proceed to inquire say that in his opinion the cases were not at alhanalogous, if there were not a certain class of these petitioners whose for with respect to the other vote, there was no contest i n claims were valid. He thought the reasonable interpreta respect of the principle, that the injury bad been received tion to be put upon the carrying of the motion of last year in consequence of the violation of the law of nations. He was, that the Commissioners should report which of had already stated he was determined to oppose this too- these claims were to be considered valid. The ewhelendg Hon, of n the facts, tion, and should he have a majority against him, he sh ou ld Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who resist it in its future stages and progress , whatever might had opposed the vote to the utmost of his power, had ' be the result of this address. As long as he bad a seat in that stated that he did not consider that to he the object and into- House he would take care that the subject , if it came to be rest of the vote, or that they should tie included in the esti discussed, should be discussed ha a full House, wmitehmahefurall mates. It would, however, be a second question, whether , these clauses should be included in the estimates. When w that came before the House for discussion they could go knowledge wdow‘l wer e g le e few in they a i al had a i d t s been e e e t a, i number,il s, a bad n n canvassed d o n ok to come d own f or t h e into the general merits of the question. purpose, n w purpose, in effect, of supporting a money vot e . H e t h oug h t Mr. CRE SSWE LL replied be could not pass by the if the House did not at once set its face agai nst t h e atop observation of his Right Hon. Friend below him, who lion of such a course it would stand in a most awkward said that if the present motion was agreed to the claimants would plunder the country. fie could not understand upon i Considering tuatin s that might what ground it was stated that those persons whose pl.:Tarty respect serious ensettihenenee public.—( Hear.) result from such a vote, he would unde r t a k e no was taken from them in consequence of the proceedings responsibility with respect to the present qu es ti on o f p re - of Government, would plunder the country because , they situation with h he paring any estimate, or of obtaining her Majesty's assent sought compensation for the losses they had sustained. it to it. The Hon. Gentleman hail stated fairly enough, by might be said that the Danes, who had taken 1,200,000/ way of supporting his case, that be (the Chancellor of the of the property of the people of England, had plundered Exchequer) had not directed this claim to be adjudicated the country, but it was too much to say that the parties upon, to order not to terrify the House by the extent of who had suffered losses to that extent could be charged the demand. He could assure bins that he had proceeded with plundering the country when they claimed compen upon no such ground ;in the other cases it was true that sation for these losses.—( Hear, hear.) The ground he had directed the Commissioners to adjudicate, but in the taken by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite on present instance he was prepared to resist it to the utmost the present occasion was precisely the same as of his power, indeed he would at once say, that be was not that which be had taken last year.—(" Hear, disposed to submit provision to be made for these claims, hear, hear," from the Chancellor of time Exchequer.) unless there was somatkia g .ilana. to...a... g uise .itas a num°, ,_The Right Hon., Gentleman said that subjects were bound vote. If the Hou. and Learned Member would meet to take their chance during the time of war, and he stated this - question fairly, he should be ready at any time to that the captures were made flagrante belle. Ile (Mr. grapple with him, let bins only bring forward' a motion Cresswell) denied that.—(Cheers.) The Erglish nation, that would raise the question of a money vote, and then if for great and important purposes, had committed an irre. the House affirmed that they were ready to pay t h at gular act, by seizing the property of a nation in time of amount he would direct the Commissioner to adjudicate, peace. Lord Cathcart had stated that he came there as a but •he would not, until then, pursue a course friend, and he seized the property of the, Danes, as he directly 'at ' vatiance with his sense of public duty. alleged, to prevent its falling into the hands of their The House would have the goodness to recollect, that enentie3.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Danes made re• endeavouring to defeat the claim, he could not have prisals, and, according to the law of nations, the country was any interested motives with respect to the Govern. bound to make compensation for property lost by its sub. ment, he did it solely because he considered that it jects in such cases. Any lion. Member of that House who behoved those who were placed in situations of trust knew anything of the law of nations would at once admit to adhere to principles, and as far as possible to prevent that principle.—( Hear. ) The Right Hon. Gentleman the House running the danger of acting upon er parte (the Attorney-General) had on a former occasion admit statements. If the proposition of the Hon. Member was ted that very principle, but his argument was that the pro.. carried, then the parties making the claim would consider perty had been lost flagranle &Po, therefore no title to themselves strengthened, and they would come to the compensation bad been made out. Another argument House stating that although they had failed in making urged by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer House meant was that the question should be discussed in a full House. by claim, they wanted to know what the Member Whatcould he MI Creswell) do more ? He by granting the second address to the Hon. for ~ ( :._ . had Liverpool, and they would tell the House to its face that watched his o"pportunity, and bad fixed his motion for au it. Nos he early hour, when there was some probability of a full at wouldt meant a money vote, and nothing else by let the House so understand it, let it he sup- tendanee—(Cassers)—he had selected the very night fixed say, by the Hon. Member for London to bring forward the that the vote of that year committed the House to a posed tion of money, and upon that he wou.d lappeal to the question of the Ballot—( Renewed cheers) —and if the House ues as a body, whether they would, by a side wind, allow subject had been considered of importance by time Govern the whole question of money to be opened except under moot, why had they not brought down a full House the authority of the Crown. He had to apologise to the to discuss these claims in ?—( Loud cheers.) He had Hon. Member for the City of London for preventing him brought the question forwsrd as an independent for sometime from bringing on his motion, of which he Member.—( Hear, hear.) He bad done so, not because had given notice that night, he had not the fortuLe to his constituents were interested in it, because, unless he was agree with the Hon. Member on that subject, but he satisfied that the claim was a just one, he would not bring thought it was due to him to say that his duty alone had it forward its that liouse.—(lleam hear.) The captures caused him to address the House at the length he bad which had been made of the property of British subjects. idone. If it w as neccesary, whenever questions which might was now matter of history, and he hoped the Government nvolve the country in large pecunary res p o nsibility were would allow its own Commissioners to investigate what the brought forward upon principles hitherto unrecognised, amount of these losses was. The Right Hon. Gentleman if the House recognised such a principle, he would move stated that he would oppose the wish of the House so far as a call of the House, in order that the House might under- he could, and he had given fair notice, that he would stand what it was about; and until the deliberate opinion of resist the motion so far as he could. That intimation cer the House was pronounced on every stage of the proceed- tainly could not hurt him (Mr. Crcsswell) in the least. ing, the Hon. Member for Liverpool would find him a It was an intimation to the House, and if the Right Hon. Gentleman had declared that h e wou ld res i st the most inflexible opponent. Consid e ring the course pro wish of the House—that was its affair not hi s . —( Hear, posed by the Hon. and Learned Member to be one that would pledge the House to grant the money required to and cheers.) I t was said that t h e C omm i ss i oners oug h t not to adjudicate lest the parti es m i g h t b e put to expense, satisfy these claims, he must give it his most decided op. and in the same breath the Commissioners are told to re position. ceive evidence, but not to pronounce any opinion lest it Mr. HUME had only a few words to say. Time had • ill •te false hopes in the ' the claims of the individuals. !nig texei _parties claiming. Now, he only added, in his opinion, to preceding Government had ected most contended, thatthe Right Hon. Gentleman, having put He thought the hands 1 200 000/ it had these parties to the expense of bringingforward d their evi unjustly, when, having had in . its ' ' • " The donee was the person whohadfr • aise false hopes.—( Hear, British subject any compensation.. refused to give the hear.)' It could b ' d r ecognised the point to this extent, that not :... suppose that it was mere idle Government had t that they had claims, those claims were curiosity, or an anxiety to learn precisely the am oun t if parties made out entitled to c onsideration. The s ideration. Ile Chancellor of the Excise- of the losses sustained, that induced the Commis quer was of opinion that the vote of the previous Session sioners t o re q uire evide nce on these points. He trusted did not imply a vote of money. He agreed with the that the hopes which •had been excited iu the minds of the Right Hon. Gentleman in that, but then it implied that parties, who had lost their property some thirty-two years inquiry should be made by competent persons to ascertain ago, by the vote of last year, would now be realised, who were the claimants, and what was time amount of the The House divided when there appeared— claims. After that vote he should have considered himself Ayes, bound not only to receive the claims, but to direct the Noes, Commissioners to ascertain the nature and the amount of the claims; nor could he think that justice war, he Was prepared could be satisfied until that was done. If the Hon. and ythe claimants had no Learned Gentleman opposite did not know what the claims were, he did perfectly right to try this address, fot the address, as be understood it, simply prayed in effect that her Majesty would be pleased to direct an inquiry to be made into the nature of the claims, in order that the House might afterwards take the question into its consi deration whether those claims should be paid ( Hear, h fa e i a rl r y .) to righ , . to come to that House, but if ever there was an ex • traordinary case in the annals of British history the con duct staletlri s that had he e been sho a u n l d o r t d h i ni think duct of the British Government with respect to D emark, on the occasion referred to, presented that extraordinary case. From the correspondence that had taken place it appeared that the merchants having heard ru mours of war between England and Denmark, they went to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day to, inquire if England was going to war w i th Denmark, and the answer they received was, that there was not the , least chance of it. And if he (Mr. Home understood the claimants, their case was that, by that statement from Government they were misled. If it had been an ordinary case of warfare, every merchant was considered bound to insure his ships against the ordinary chances of war, and i n t h at ease if a war had taken place, there would have boen no hardship to complain of ' • but .here there was a cert aint y of war, and whic h from the statement made by the Government no ingenuity or attention on the part of the merchants could possibly have enabled them to foresee or to provide against. That cir cumstance made the present an extraordinary case. He had no hesitition, therefore, in thinking that whatever might be the • 3 s oft of the House as to p a y i ng monev, it was du e t o ou r countrymen who had been thirty-two ;ears kept out of their cialn.E,at least to ascertain if anything was due to them; an c'. now that they had done all they could towards satisfying o .1 i 1 claimants, it would be but barely just th a t thetsauld give their attention to this last c l ass o f c l a i mants . It was but right that the Right Hon. Gentleman should not allow a shilling to be paid axay till a clear case was made out, but he ought not to oppose a proper inquiry. He (Mr. Hume) had fifteen or twenty years ago advocated this case, when it was but ill received by the House, and almost scouted by the Government of the day. The Right Honourable Gentleman then acted wrongly, as be (Mr. Hume) bad told him at that Majority for the Address, —63 The announcement was received with loud cheering. Oa our re-admission we found The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER on his legs answering a question put to him by Mr. Hutt.—ln consequence of the adverse vote which has just taken place I will take care that there shall he placed on the table of the House a full and entire account of these claims to the fullest extent they can be carried out. Sir, I enter my caveat against any complaints being again made against me upon the subject. Having done so, I will tell the lion. Gentleman that I will still think it my duty to oppose the next step he takes, which must be the proposal of a money vote. I will resist that vote, and tell' the House that if it votes away the money it is the publi c money that it is dealing with. Although the Hon. and Learned Gentleman has carried the address against me, still I must protest against it, and until the Housn carries a money vote to pay these claims I will be no party to the cause in any way.__( Hear, hear.) I feel quite persuaded that there is no Gentleman in this House who imputes to me any motives, or thinks that I am or have been actuated by any other motives, in this case than a deep sense of public duty.— ( Hear, hear.) The day will come when resistance in matters of this kind will be looked upon in another light, and it will be then found that the House has set a bad exa mple upon this occasion, and that it has too much re laxed the rule. The question can be, carried no farther now than the money vote, and that remains still an open question. Mr. CRESSWELL—The Right Hon. Gentleman, in his speech. mentioned something es to the manner of bringing on a money vote. Perhaps if he will not move it himself he will initiate me into the secret. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No; the Hon. and Learned Gentleman has carried his address against me. lam not at all desirous of giving him the slightest assistance, and I will not be so presumptuous as t o afford him any insight into the matter at all. Colonel SIBTHORP said he did not object to such Commissions as this one, it was with those who did nothing that he found faule—(Lauehter.) PUBLIC WALKS. M r . SLANEY rose to move " That it is the duty of the c om mons' House of Parliament to take measures to pro vide Public Walks in the immediate vicinity of large an d populous towns, calculated to promote the health and com'ort of the middle and humbler classes."—(The Hon. EVENING _EDITION. Gentleman was received with loud cries of " Oh, oh," and strange noises, when it was found that he intended to persist.)—He was aware how anxious the House was to proceed to the important question to be brought forward by the Hon. Member for London, and therefore he could assure them that he would be as brief as possible in his statement.—(" Oh, oh.") The population of this country had entirely changed its character within the last thirty five or forty years—now many who were then engaged in agricultural pursuits were now congregated in large ma nufacturing towns, the population congregated in which now amounted to between . three and a half and four mil- F lions of people, mostly of the humbler classes. They were bzdly lodged, being cooped up all the week in cellars and small rooms, aituz.ted in narrow lanes they had no day for enjoyment but the Sundays, and upon that day they were deprived of the benefit of country air from the want of public places in their neigh. bourhood. It was to provide such recreation for them that he pressed his motion. Mr. BROTHER TON seconded the motion. Lord J. RUSSELL perfectly *Treed in the necessity of public walks and open spaces for the working classes in the neighbourhood of large towns, but the resolution before the House did not advance the object, as it pointed out or provided no means. • Mr. HUME said the Government ought to take up the question, as it was one of much importance. Sir R. IN and Mr. SANFORD hoped the Hon. Member would not press his motion, as it was so indefinite that many must oppose it who agreed in the piinciple. Mr: MARK PHILLIPS airecd that the resolution would not effect the object they had in view, although he - was almost at a loss to know in what shape the subject could be properly brought forward. He thought Crown lands might be exchanged for land in the neighbourhood of Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, and other places for the purpose of establishing public walks there. Sir ROBERT PEEL begged to join the expression of his wish to what appeared to be the general wish of the House, that the Honourable Gentleman would not press his motion to a division.—(He4r, hear, hear.) He thought public aid might be given in assistance to li beral local contributions, and that it would go far towards providing some means of recreation, would cont r ib u t e to the public health, and would also gratify those who had the greatest means of annoyance, if they felt they were neglected.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. WARBURTON concurred in what bad fallen from the Right lion. Baronet. Mr. SLANEY then withdrew his motion, hoping the Government would take the subject up in the way that had been suggested. vV THE BALLOT- Mr. BRISCOE hoped, before his Hon. Friend sub mitted his motion to the House, that he might be al lowed to present a petition from nine respectable electors of the borough of Westhury, who stated that having voted at the last general election against Sir Ralph Lopez, they had received nc.t'ees to quit, which notices had been fol lowed up by processes of ejectment, and that the peti tioners had, been obliged to quit their occupations, to the annoyance of their families anti the interruption of their business, although some of the petitioners had improved the value of the property they had occupied on the under standing that they were not to be disturbed in the posses sion of it. Mr. GROTE presented four petitions in favour of the Ballot. The Honourable Member then said, that in rising to renew the motion which he had already made, in several preceding sessions, for leave to bring in a Btll providing that the votes at Parliarlentary elections should be - taken by wiy of Ballot. he felt the many discussions this subject had undergone, forbade his indulging the hope that he could introduce any fresh argument in its favour, but he would not be det , :rred on that account from solicit- ing a very moderate portico of the time of the House. Although he would be very brief, yet he did not think it necessary to throw aside arguments that were really relevant and forcible, simply because they had been used before. All historical exparienee assured him that poli tical conclusions were only arrived at by renewed discussion of the same topics, and more than all, by the continual pressure of the same unremedied evils.--( gear, hear.) in one respect he approached this discussion with an ad vantage he had not before enjoyed. It was satisfactory to him to anticipate that the Ballot was not likely to be any len,gcr made a subject of formal opposition by the Cabinet, and that if any objection were made by members of tie Government to the Ballot, it would arise from their indi vidual opinions.—( Hear, hear.) If be were asked whether he believed the proposition he was making would rectify all the evils in the representa'ive system, be would answer without hesitation, he did not believe it would.—( Hear, hear.) He agreed with those who thouzbt the present suffrage was too narrow, and too unequally distributed, .yet he confidently affirmed it was a complete remedy against one of the grossest and moat grievous of those defects the intimidation and corruption now practised in the legitimate exercise of the fran aise,—( Hear, bear, hear.) To those who opposed the Ballot on the ground that the Reform Act was to be a fi.:al measure, he would say, 'did they mean that the intimida tion and corruption which now disgraced the working of that Act, were to be final also.—(Cheer:;.) 'He could net suppose that the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home Department, meant to discountenance all remedies for proved electoral abuses, although, undoubtedly, many of their arguments seemA to him tacitly to imply it.— Hezr, hear.) He entertained no faith in that doctrine which proclaimed the Reform Act to be a final measure, and he would not scruple to contend that Gentlemen who differed with him on that point might yet, with perfect consistency, support the Ballot, unless they considered themselves pledged not merely to the finality of the Reform Act, but also to the finality of corruption and intimidation ; fur whether the franchise were confined or extended, the protection of the Ballot was indispensable. The Ballot was no enlarge went or disturbance of any limit fixed be the Perform and he (Mr. Grote) advocated the Ballot as the only ctr eirnt remedy for gross electoral abuses.—(Hear.) It was a matter of history, that in the first speech with which the Noble Lord had ushered in the Reform Bdl, he stated the questions as to the proper mode of taking votes, and of the duration of Parliaments, were not to be determined by that Bill. If any one would point out a way of effectually banishing corruption and intimidation, and imuring freedom of elec. tion under open suffrage, he would abandon the Ballot at once.—(Cheers.) There was no option between adopting the Ballot on the one hand, and keeping the present sys. • tern en the other. Voters were now made to vote under the fear of loss or the hope of gain, by promises or by threats. The secret suffrage would be an effectual ber to these evils, for he defied human ingenuity to punish any man in consequence of an invisible vote.—( Hear .. .) When he heard so many Gentlemen denouncing the Ballot as a clernoeratical innovation, he was persuaded they did not differ much as to the real svcrking of the 'Ballot, however much they might dislike the working of ir; for in what sense could the Ballot be said to be a democratic measure ? It gave no vote to any one. Those who objected to the Ballot must of necessity admit that there were a conside rable number of persons who would give democratic votes if they were not restrained by fear.—( Cheers.) This measure would only liberate them from unnatural restraint. Ever, amongst those who objected to tee Ballot there were a great number who proceeded upon the full admission of its working as a remedy against interference at elections, and as a preservative of the freedom of election.—( Hear.) That was sufficient to induce him to continue its advo cacy. The right of voting had. been conferred on a certain description of persons. That gift ought to be confirmed and sealed by the Ballot, for without it their franchise was useless to the country, and a misfortune and a curse to themselves.—( Cheers.) He would not cite individual cases in illustration of the evil, because there could not be a doubt of its reality. If there was to be a representative system, there must be some class of voters dependent. To expect from them that " strong divinity of soul which conquers chance and fate," which the richer man did not exhibit, was nothing better than an an idle dream.—(Cheers.) Much had been said as to the probability of a dissolution of Parliament at no distant period. The prospect of that dissolution made him more anxious to press forward this measure, in order to prevent a recurrence of the evils which bad so frequently taken place.—( Cheers.) The right of the free exercise of opi nion by people of this country was their conviction, and to convert that conviction into reality was the charm and virtue of the Ballet,—( Cheers.) He now recommended the measure to the consideration of the House. He knew not whether they would reject it or not, but he was con vinced that in sober confidence they would nut reject it long.—(Cheers.) Lord WORSLEY, in seconding the motion, was con vineed, that unless the protection of the Ballot was afforded, this House would not long retain the confidence of the people.—( Hear, hear.) There were some individuals who had said that he had been requested by Members of the Government to second the motion, but this he begged to deny. The reason for his taking a prominent part in the debate was from a firm conviction that some protection should he given to the voters in the exercise of their fran chise ; for his impression was that the Ballot would pre vent the intimidation which was so common ; one instance of which had come within his own knowledge, that of a banker in the country having prevented-a person exercising his right because he was under,some obligation to him.— (Cheers.) It was curious to observe how the divisions on the Ballot had increased. In 1830, on a motion made by the lion, and Learned Member for Dub lin (then Member for Clare), he was supported by the votes of twenty-one members. In 1833 the number vot ing for the Bailot was 106; in 1834, 82; in 1835, 144; in 1836, 88 ; in 1837, 153; and in 1838, 198. —( Cheers.) Perhaps he (Lord Worsley) should explain why he, repre senting a county, should have come forward in defence of the Ballot, but previously to his last election be had gone round to his constituents and informed them that if re elected he should support that measure.—( Hear, hear.) He was convinced that there was now an absolute neces sity for some legislative enactment to prevent that corruption and intimidation which it had so long been vainly hoped would diminish.—(Hear, hear, hear.) And he felt confident that if the protection of the Ballot were not afforded to voters, they would consider the fran chise not a privilege but a burden.—( Hear, hear.) He knew the steward of a near connection of his, who, when asked how his master's tenants would vote -their landlord being out of the country—replied, that those who held freeholds he thought might vote as they chose; but that as to those that held 501 leases, he considered it his con scientious duty to his master to tell them that they should vote for their latidlord.—( Laughter, and hear, hear.) lie did not believe that th,• Ballot would do away with the leeitirnate influence of property ; and for this opinion he had the authority of Lord Althorp, who said, that the Ballot would only prevent the undue influence of property. —( Hear, hear.) He firmly believed that if the Ballot were not adopted by that House it would he thouglit that those who supported the Reform Bill were not sincere in so doing, and that those who had opposed the Bill were equally insincere in their present professions of submission to its enactments, which they were only anxious to evade. --(Hear, hear. ) Mr. G A SKELL admitted that never had greater public interest been excited respecting the Ballot than at the present period ; but contended that the Ballot was inimical to the first principles of the Constitution•—(Hear hear.) He believed that every argument for the Ballot, as applied to voting for Members of that House, was equally good for the secret voting of the Members themsette s.— ( Hear, hear, and cries of Oh, oh ! ) He was crrta'n that the Ballot would not prevent bribery and intit-reda tion—it had been tried and failed—(Name I)—at Rome— ( Laughter)—in the Italian States—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition and laughter from the Ministerial benches)—and in the United States.—(Laughter and Oh, oh I from the Libsrals. Hear, heart, from the Opposition.) Miss Mar tiacau—( Poa - s of laughte: from tie Ministerial benches) —had borne her tettimony to tie t x ,t-ince of corruption and intimidation in America, notwithstanding the Ballot. If on any future occasion the House should he unhappily in.. duced to concede this revolutionary measure, they would strike a fatal blow at the moral character and civil liber ties of the people. Mr. M ACA CLAY rose and was received with loud cheers. He said that having entered the House after a long absence he could have wished it bad been in his power to have remained for some weeks at least a silent listener to their proceedings, but the deep interest he took in the question, and his sense of what was due to a large and re spectable portion of his constituents, irepesed on him the necessity of trespassing on the attention of the House—(Cheers)—but before making any remarks on the present subject of debate, be wished to address himself to one topic which was exciting the greatest interest at the present moment, and to which the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had alluded in some sarcastic, and, in his opinion, not exceedingly well judged remarks. It had been extetts:vely reported that it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to make the question of the Ballot an open question—in other words, that on this question the members of the Government would vote each in accord ance with his individual opinion. —( Loud cheers.) It was natural that this determination should have ex. cited censtre on the one side of the House and appro bation on the other ; for h:s own part, without any refer ence to his own opinion on this particular question he was inclined on higher and more general grounds to approve of this & termination, on the part of Government.—(Cheers.) He rejoiced to see the number of open questions increas ing.—( Loud cheers.) He rejoiced to see they were re turning to the wise practice Xilich had prevailed in that House in the times of their fathers and their grandfather s . _ . The practice of the House on this subject had undergone a great change ; he believed that another great chang e w a s now at band. t To -what extent it was desirable that the Ministers of the Crown should act in concert was an ex ceedingly nice-question—a question as far as he was aware. —( A laugh from the Opposition side, responded to by loud cheers from the Ministerial side.) Honourable Gentlemen opposite possessed a great advantage over him in being aware of what had occurred in that House during the last four years, but he was riot aware that any practical statesmsn had either by speech or writing laid down a distinct line of demarcation on this subject: This was Hain that there were only three courses that could possibly be pursued—eithrr the Ministers of the Crown must agree in all their opinions on every legisla tive question, or they must express an agreement when they lei reality differed, or there must be open questions. With regard to the first case, he would quote the opinion of a high constitutional authority. It was an expression of the great Lord Chathain's, that although a house di vided against itself could not stand, yet where could they find tweive men whose minds were cast in the same mould ? He would go further ; he would take the instance of two men who had been always brought together, who had been educated together, and who had mutually exer cised the greatest inflamice over one another in the formation of their minds, and he would ask could men thus situated be found who would agree with each otherin their opinions or politics? He was certain that this would seldom be found to be the case. He spoke not of her -Majesty's present Government, nor of the Government which had preceded it, nor of the Government which had been pro posed to be formed the other day, but every Government at its formation was necessarily constituted of a variety of noblemen and gentlemen, many of whom had never before seen each other, and some of whom had previously been strongly opposed to each other. How could unanimity, except by miracle, be expereed in a Gov, rnraent to con stituted ?—it was impossible. He did not profess any great prudery in political matters; he knew that it was impossible that anything could be done in Par liament without co operation, and he knew that there could be no co-operation without compromise. He. considered that Members were justified in procuring that mutual co-operation by mutual compromise. In this point of view Members would be justified in giving their votes, not with reference to the - mere terms of the question, but ' with reference to the state of parties. If any one should think this view of the subject wrong, he would tell him that be respected his conscientious scruples, but that lie was not fitted to enter into the field of politics in England. Such a mar had better retire into a private station, as his scruples as much unfitted him for entering on a political career, as the equally conscientious scruples of a Quaker would eta& him fur taking the command of a regiment. Although this system was just end proper to a great extent, yet it might be carried too far, as, for instance, if a Member of that Hoese were to say no to a proposit'on which he believed to be true, or were to vote for a Bill through all its stages to which he conscientiously objected, such a Member might be said to go with his party against his conscience. Although he considered this an extremely indefensible practice, yet it constituted the exception to the great rule of morality, and the exception should be strictly construed, se as not to be come the rule. He considered a Government would do wrong to require from its Members any concession of old. nion not necessary for the vigorous conduct of its affairs. lie was not now pleading the cause of innovation—he was attacking a modern abuse, and was pleading for a re turn to the old principles of Government.—( Hear, hear, hear,) It had been said that the Catholic question under Lord Liverpool's Government was the first instance of an open question. This was a gross error—the general rule under all Governments fifty years ago was, that all questions were to be considered as open questions, except those measures which were brought forward by the Go vernment as a Government, and fur which all Members of the Government were expected to vote, and thos,. , mea sures which were brought -forward for the purpose of cast ing censure on the Government, or on any of its Members which, of course, all Members of the Government were ex pected to oppose. He would say that this was the rule laid down, and that it was impossible to find any exception • to it. Let them look at Mr. Pitt's Administration—his India BM, on his Budget, and othi r questions of a like nature, but questions of a very important nature both commercial and political, were left by th at G overnment as open questions. The question of Parliamentary Reform had been left as an open question. The question of the impezeliment of Warren Hastings had been left as an open question; so had the question as to whether that impeachment had been abated by the dissolution of Parliainent in 1790 e-the powers of _juries in cases o r libel—the question of the abolition of the slave trade_all these had been left as open questions by Mr. Pitt's Go. vernment, and members of the. Government were to be found speaking and voting for and against those questions in both Houses of Parliament.—(Hear.) Was the effect of that policy to enfeeble the administra tion ? Directly the contrary ; there never was a Ministry that preSented a mere formidable front to the Opposition. He would not pretend to draw the line precisely, but he • was satisfied it had been drawn too strictly, and he was glad to see that they were returning to good maxims. .He was sure the Government would find that by taking the course they had done they had increased their strength. Ile would now come - to the particular question. He should vote for the motion of the lion. Member for the City of London, but in doing so he wished it dis tinctly to be understood, that in giving his sanction to secret voting he would withhold his support from any Bill that did not secures ecrecy. He should also reserve to himself, how far be would give his assent to a Bill for improving the registration. He thought it would be most disingenu ous to give a vote saddling it with conditions which were im possible to be complied with, but he thought those to which he had adverted could not come under that denomination. Subject to those conditions he should give his support to the motion of the Honourable Member for the City of London, but he could not say that he did so upon all the grounds upon which many of the supporters of the Ballot rested their case. He did not conceive that it was a case in which the arguments were all on one side. He could not agree with the Hon. Member for the city of London that the Ballot was a preventive of bribery, be cause he thought in a small constituency it would exist, but he.considered it to be the specific remedy for intimida tion.—(llear, hear.) There was a time when he thought that etil would have died a natural death, but he had been obliged to give up that hope and he now felt satisfied that it was a growing evil. and one that had considerably increased within the last seven years. He thought this evil was to be attributed to the Reform Bill, for that measure although it had swept away many abuses, had given new life and vigour to the abuses it had spared.—( Hear, bear.) It was impose sible for him to close his eyes to the evils that existed, and if he was to. believe the outcry that existed, many of the Hon. Members of that Iloilo owed their seats to votes extorted by fear- —( Hear, hear.) If there was any such person in that House who owed his seat to such a cause, it would be infinitely better that he sat for Old Sarum, for there there were no threats and no ejectments.—(Hear.) He hated all tyranny, but the worst species of tyranny was that which worked with the machinery of freedom. —( Hear.) The Noble Lord who had seconded the motion of the Hon. Member for the city of London bad said that this motion, to deprive w he cai d t i li d onfot wish, in it supporting ce ; neither did he (Mr. Macaulay) ; but could it be said to have its legitimate in. flaence when it was applied to the purposes of bribery. If bribery were so objectionable, what was to be said about intimidation ? Vote with me, or I will turn you out of your farm---vote with me, and I will give you 201. for a pair of votes.—(Oh, oh, from Colonel Sibtherp, and great laughter.) Why that practice had been admitted on all hands.—(Cheers.) " Vote for me, or I shall carry my custom to the shoemaker's shop in the next street." The feet was, lie almost dissented from the wording of the Hon. Member for London's motion in that respect. He objected to au antithesis being made between intimidation and corruption. Intimidation was nothing but corruption in its most leathsome form, stripped of every blandishment lied grace which hospitality and liberality and good hu mour could confer upon it, and exhibited in allits stern, and loathsome, and naked reality. It was corruption working by barbarity and tyranny, and oppression, and that species of corruption was unhappily the easiest and they m cheapest eaaaof of all. A man could no t be long corrupted by or retrenching nothing, It involved promises,Cbroirtrtuhprteiaotnsbmyight be continued for an indefinite period. no necese cost ga t g h i r n e g ats one;a estatee , one's expenses—it might be carried on secretly and se curely ; and while it was the cheapest and most easily re re- sorted to by the p art y employing it, so it was the most to the virtue of the party to whom it was npplied, trying what he never than to surrender what be bad been accustomed to. was in much more easy for a man to refuse had, ( Hear, heer.) There were many men who would throw away the eurse of a candidate with some, but who could, not resist the fear of ar. action of ejectment.—( Cheers.) As that system was the most easily end cheaply resorted to. it was the safest of all. It might be practised with, perfect impunity. Those who by bribery and that system of hospitality rendered men happy were liable to be punished, while those who, by another system of corruption, made