The Sun. — London, England, 1844-07-20 00:00:00

would as r. Th e ed th at i in Mr. d to the paid uP , wade, ,f a dil ly filled• fly eon rdict °f !mild to respeq vv. Au Friend acter 9f acted In s Would Plibll6 n thil poiliv e:'"'"""'"'"......'....wm•u1e1U1V•ca....u...0•uaaM1...1f , .......r..,ara0.1 ..". 11,11:11nerldiZg mercy i n t h e case tr the two persons to that the °l n he had alluded. He (M r . M. Gib son ) because be was glad * Right lion. Baro ne t h a d a d opte d suc h- a course , ~m „ V er e was convin ce d th e cr i me was i ncrease d b y ', beC lx"nalties., He thought the lion. Gentleman, core he questioned the rerogative of mercy, ought to Tor inquired within himself how many of the crimes -ur whi tor• eh men were convicted the State was responsible ' In con sequence of bad legislation. No step was taken r em() ve squalid want and distress, and the result was, th tlait a strong feeling existed among the labouring classes t fo att heY were neglected, and that all the legislation of that s , use was for the benefit of the higher and of the middle lasses There was a feeling among the lower classes ;, the Legislature did not care for them, and the ' e rp of the Church had contributed to spread that t , ( 1;?ng• What bad the Rev. Godolphin. Osborne told thatbake of Richmond.? Why, he stated this to him, if th e Legislature would only give the labourers' half Zeattention that was given to the landlords condition, they IT, arrir e at the conclusion which he had . arrived_ at, s acre was not a single animal used on their farm thatwas suffered so much neglect as the labourer. ac,s it, therefore, to be wondered at, that a feeling of me had greatly increased? It had been said that t"'Hee arose in the manufacturing districts from want of iascieto,ral care. Why, these counties to which he had al ai( I were counties of churches and clergymem— i)b .ar, hear.) There was plenty of pastoral care there. tiert,ulore was wanted than that. Mr. Osborne stated further that neither the law nor the Gospel could pre -11-I:hee men were deprived of the bread which they .° (3,1,,'",t° have, and were treated worse than brutes. He eh„ - i 'd . • Gibson) did not think any increase of the of car or of clergymen, or the keeping up the price o ci w „ ecit n , would conciliate the labouring classes with the .er s of the land, or would ward off those evils which wool assuredly come some day. When the lim.ited.sur eo'e of this island, and its increased population, was be ll i ri ":l "ed, he had to charge gentlemen opposite with 4,,,,,g t hemselves the means of strengthening the preju t ' a 'B against them among the labouring classes. One 'b e e:" given for incendiarism was the dislike the la takirner iliac' to machinery. H e s aw th a t mac hi ner y was th e ,g Ina labo ur out o f hi s h an d s; an d w h at h a d b een whLourse adopted - by the landlords on that subject? .. 11:11 f ?,: , event at public meetings on the corn-law question, 1 , - ,7 hey chose to revile the manufacturer, they en fe,,Tl into tirades against the use of machinery in mann a,„°"ies• The labourers, hearing them using these te,j'a'nents, and finding that machinery was used b . y the th e atits of the landlords greatly to their detriment, eo„Y,lvere led to the conclusion that machinery was b,1,,,'4'13' b ad to them as it was for the la tie",rers in manufactories. The landlords had fomented again feelings for party purposes, to raise a prejudice .d an st the manufacturers, and now it -had recoiled the t hemselves they would come forward to advocate headehse °f it. With respect to wages, the same attempt I,e"een made to delude the poor labourers. They had dega told that the farmers could afford to give them • r wa to ges if th e y c h ose . N ow th a t h e (M r . M. Gib son ) o d a!o be the ca se . Fa rme rs, genera lly s p ea k ing , l ar t i ld hardly afford to give the wages they did. The 14C° wn ers stated th a t th e f armers were screw i ng t h e fires down, and that was the ca u se of th e i ncen di ary of: th at had taken place. He believed that the contr o l th e 'ages was entirely out of the farmers' power; 7 •-vhii s t into T en t of the landlord increased the money wP.,ukl go of tiauhdlords' pockets, derived, as it was, fre.r:i the sweat b een ;1..,r0w of the labourer. The expect-limns that bad the f ar eld out by the promise of ptotection had induced liaveraers to give higher rent tits - .1 they otherwise would tie ,„„! I ° ll e, and to join in 5(), 'hazardous an enterprise. 1 )tz,•„, h appy, however, to see that the farmers were tl‘„ -n oig to open their eyes. He had been lately into )14;iipuntrY, where he had no doubt the Right Hon. atiC, e t would be glad to be at the present moment, that ay Was ,_ th „ s ois opinion that the farmers began to think equivocal Ilight Honourable Baronet's protection was o u p, and he (M. M. Gibson) wished to en the'fagf such a feeling. Such he be'beieved to be that e m e lings of the present time, and had no doubt Ed en t'ese feelings would tend to good. The less con' Nve re e , e , the farmers had in protection, the more likely he r. ","e37 to conduct their business la a profitable man ta t,i, One a griculturalfilaboureis were deeply interested efe Prosperity of thi farmers, and the prosperity of an tler rili th e s would be ,best consulted by not depending th at ,'• hose, but on,their own exertions. He trusted Ilan, $a be met, fairly on, this-sahieet by the Right e mn _ Isaronet opposite." Inciuiriee.bad been. made by Afri can tees into the ttate of 'the Aborigines, the bee t , a ms, and even the squimaux, but no inquiries had lahoiar_luade into the xondition of the ag r i cu lt ura l stated"; Some ge n tl emen got up i n that House and atith or . t eat there w as n 6 distress, while others of high tad „ I tY had s t a t e d t hi t there was deep distress. They en wilgistrates stating that the working classes looked Of the .' a sort of sat i s f act i on at the terrible destruction ch a i r ll' neighbours' stacks and farms. Mr. Bevan, the Atem tlia n of the quarter-sessions, stated that the t o ' e at Middleham Hall did all they could lacremote the fire, and another person at Hitcham vit4 hie a similar statement. The motion IN. w uich he intended to conclude he had put into Sar on g ,a but he did n.o:tr,vvish to confine the Right Hon. ai t to the words lie. had there used. If he would s a e i • send down some gentlemen to inquire into the / e i t u s e i et, who were unconnected with the Poor-law Cora • oners or who did ilot hold any situation that would 41v e th ere ' (14 m a biased character—if he would do that, he t as , • • Gibson) would agree to any proposition that would Il ° the effect of carrying out the object he had in view. .1, e would conclude by moving that a humble address to 4 .„_ er !lajesty, representing to her Majesty that there was . t i l 'a e s e n to believ e that the incendiarism now prevalent in It s. se c9uties of Norfolk ,f 0 from . distress, and Su ::: praying her Majesty to issue a Essex, and Cambridge, v ' O Ultnission to ascertain distress. It might be said that this the cause of that because it was confined to e,,erat ai t n is was a partial motion, ~.4. a.y that, if,' to that, he would only s - counties. With respect ttehrrae ruinraatelddiisttrlvicatss thCitig the coun after this inquiry was ht desirable to extend it to all objection to it • inr' d try, he could have no lo do so. Ha thought 4 e ,he thought it would be most wise r espect to the J.. there had been great neglect with beli eved, if thed.eltion of .the working classes, and he Ivesuilrd ze"l - o ; d l Y ei P ay u . t off this inquiry much longer, they inn b e ' 4RA.RAM said, after the speech that had vr euid .°ll delivered by the lion. Gentleman, the House bu r ; a i -ee that it was his duty to offer some observations. % v .' 9,' the time of the delivery of that speech it 0c 1i.,. ' ad to his mind to ask himself what the object of the ' A . : °curable Gentleman could be in delivering the sen.ti -tijettntts Jle had done, and he had come to the conclusion li rg Illy a deep sense of duty to the public had induced with co make the speech be had done. He had heard -40t_.garteat the what, if the Hon. Member had inorlsite stated he should have felt it his duty to have com iii a ted to the House, that this crime, though so ~;(,saeeful, and having such a tendency to spread, being • itam l "' ifeentagions nature, was diminishing. Cer mis4..., was an extraordinary period to make that ad l'elt 4 .1 ' k a,ild, kn ow i ng t h at fact, that he should have sPe eeh L utfl duty to have addressed to the House hia l 4 , ue had just made. The Hon. Membe r had told 3 / 4e ~ to take a c hi ef constable!s view of this matter ; ryas" 4 1 bound to say, whether the Hon. Member con .di` e q it a chief constable's duty or not, ho thought a discussion this . %in e4 „ of kind forced upon the attention of Par ear, head a direct tendency to increase the crime.— li Oloni;i at%) There was such a thing as famnin the . ettssio ering flame, and it was quite possible that ads- 'ligh t 11 „, Such as the Hon. Member had introduced that aix ti ., would Cast fuel upon the flames which were almost ew`Plished.—(Hear, hear.) What good, let him ask, ba,7! arise from the various topics the Hon. Member ; hitr d 174 '0 4 ° re d ? Why, what had been the occupation early, liouse for the last four or five weeks ? Late and ~( 14e , us a ; 111 °ruing and evening, they had been t he . 40 g, with the mo s t i ntense d es i re to promote lahetiplterests and add to the comforts of the Provieg classes, the amendment of that law; which Ntiefle(lll.for their relief; and the Hon. Gentleman ad ttioa4t hi their that while they were so employed, he the i j° that great advocate of the rights and comforts of 1 1 11 4(1 btleueric-(Load cheers from the Ministerial benches)— . ey hadeeking elsewhere that gratification which, if they 0. consulted merely their own pleasure, ', 1 ,. haTAild have sought with him.—(Hear, hear.) "bil e t-•'• been absent consulting that enryment, .t on 4e Y had been devoting much pains an earnest ItvellE4ov,to.devising some means by which the misfor (4 zatw a "elr Poorer fellow-subjects might be alleviated. , I ' ev? b et s t he meaning of thecomparisontlae Hon. Member . t'.hieli h„ w eea the poor of this country and the inquiries ea ortv been instituted into the. state of the Abori a,. 14 itla u a j l°1111 parts of the world—the Hottentots and V e ll t inq u i; ° ll Which he foundrxd an analogy for the pre laat°ade t y-? What was the meaning of the allusion deo 0 the coldheartedness and selfishness of the kr toPrietors? Si.' ' IllSox e' r - 4A1, 1 „ —I quoted the words of a clergyman. b0tp41,4 -"4S GRAnAM had a great respect f or t h e 'O Y th ere ° I tbis country but among that 8. 4 ere •, t he such might b e indiscreet individuals there ar t e har aet ,, a r tkling—he did not say he admired lip 4ti popularity-hunting parspn as well as 4 1t ti. A1„...F Member of Parliament.—(Cheers.) The ! ta lt a ! l ; hu t, - , r had quoted from the letter of a clergy evleed, wil_a time when asaything like excitement ro tv,, Nosailethlikely to ad•A to the peace or order of the o _ kto -11 that t was the doctrine of the religion. diffuse en gentlemp ,p,,,,,rt all classes? lasses? .n was the minister to _ But the Hon. Gentleman would clak%ittele .1:? . tell. him, that there was no need for l a o tt 'sea of that l o_juiry into the condition of the labouring w o a ,frl ne , distt He (Sir J. Graham) had stated ‘4,0 1 (1 no , Occasion that the assizes now in progress let t . fail to throw a distinct light on the crime to Cat: . he , DI 4 48 7, had adverted. He had had communi ed . f rom the Judges who were now em- L 1 s atisf yin g ~trying the criminals in that district. He had mi ad . Israction in stating that there wits no difficulty a, unnistering the law throughout. that district. There k r : great Willingness to disclose the truth ; there was . e ri 4t . itn Parti „. I : 4 lnati o... , ji Yon the . part of juries, and great . dm 3kla wi i , r _il ? their verdicts. The guilty were convicted, Riu eed, , e there was fair cause to doubt the proofs ad 41tIci h the innocent had bad the benefit of that doubt ; :h'was no was told, upon the highest authority, that there rohne:sh,o:unlttPht,:nti whatever of a diseased state of society ! 1 14 1 4 „ a. that county, and, generally speaking, the been committed there had been traced Sou l; ' ` Bo nal e • r,...„,. Runty, bet had been committed by ver ther "'lender i f • y s• e ieved he stated the fact—and kith e i w t t e h re gentlemen present who were better acquainted , (4?4everai 1, 11 , 11 , hiraself—vvhen he said that, at . Chelmsford; ~i n cene d iv a n r ` i l L en had been committed for trial on charges ,Z,als o h eard the ages of 8,9, and 12 years. Ho e .'. , " ril u e 9, a " 4,-LeroM Huntingdon, that two children, one a '.. 8 1 . ./.;` the other 11, had been convicted of this "jilt,..posedZw h ad received a suggestion, to which he was whiciluyaa4, attention, that he should insert in the ta ue cri me . a a, 51e.gone up from this House, in reference to u bri a „,, wpi h the lion. Gentleman had felt it his duty eloontaiii,shAZ:;their consideration, a clause inflicting the e o kitt ed h _ ;"elPping in reference to this offence, when If 4 40 ,_ _ tithe Juvenile offenders. The House, in. re ' r offence, 0 which he would not more oaw . ,Fer particularly refer where notority Was Eotigjit by juve nile offenders, did add &het penalty to the other inflicted by the law. It bad been suggested to him that they shotild follow this example. He was bound to state that, with regard to these juvenile offenders , as fer all they could discover, it was bad example that had produced that effect • but he weuld - repeat that there was no proof whatever Of a generally diseased state of society among the labouring classes in the district the Hon. Gentle man had alluded to. If he could believe that a Commit. tee of Inquiry was necessary, he would 'not hesitate to appoint one, but at the present moment, with the crime decreasing, the law being carried into execution without difficulty, those who perpetrated the crime being com mitted for trial, and being about to be tried, it was not under such circumstances that he thought it expedient to advise the Crown to depart from the usual course of administering the law, or to appoint a Committee for investigating the circumstances. With respect to the other topics the Hon. Gentleman had thought fit to in troduce, it would be enough for him to say that he did not think either the language the Hon. Gentleman had ad dressed to the House, or the train of argument, if argu ment it could be called, which was rather a . course of invective, was likely, on the present occasion, to induce any large portion of the House to concur with him in the motion he had made. He was quite satisfied that neither the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, 'nor his mo tion, if it could be carried, would have the effect of diminishing the evils which he declared he was desirous of alleviating, On the contrary, he was quite. satisfied, though it did not become him to impute motives to the Hon. Gentleman, that he had acted with indiscretion in the course he had taken--one which was more likely to produce than to prevent the evils of which he complained. On these grounds he should offer his most decided op position to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. _ _ Mr. WODEHOUSE said there would be other op portunities of replying to the speech of the Honourable Gentleman, of which he should nut fail to avail himself. He should only address himself, at present, to the ob servations the Hon. Gentleman made with respect to him self. The Hon. Member had stated that he (Mr. Wode house) had arraigned the exercise of the royal preroga tive of mercy. He was standing in the presence of that House, and he distinctly denied any such intention. The case alluded to was of a peculiar nature. Two per sOns were tried for incendiarism, found guilty, and sen tenced to fifteen years' transportation. A few weeks afterwards they received a free pardon. It was utterly impossible to deny that that was a circumstance calcu lated to create surprise. But when the Hon. Gentleman said that he was an advocate for the dungeon, he begged, leave to tell him that the more he inquired into this sub ject the more he would find that there fires were not the effect of the ill-usage—the impression which the Hon. Member intended to convey. As far as his own county was concerned, thert was an instance of three fires being caused by a• child between 11 and 12 years old. There was no doubt of his guilt, but somehow he was such a favourite with his master and mistress that they could get '.lO conviction against him. There was another case in Leicestershire of a fire caused by a deaf and duir_ l o man, who had previously been convicted of the crin'e of cutting the throat of a donkey belonging to a neighbour. Of his guilt there *as no doubt ; but a me morial was presented to the Secretary of State in his favour, and a poor woman who had given evidence against him was burned in effigy. It had been proved that eight fires had been caused in. the county of Sussex by one man who was not at all connected with the agriculture of that county, being a cooper. He believed that the discontent that prevailed among the working classes might be materially attributed to the nonsense which the Hon. Gentleman and others had industriously circulated among them with respect to wages. With re gal -A to the assertion the Hon. Member had made of his having arraigned the prerogative of mercy, there was no foundation for the assertion, and he gave it his most un qualified contradiction. Mr. DARBY alluded to the quotation that had been made from the letter of the Rev. Mr. Osborne, and de fended the Duke of Richmond from the charge that that letter made upon him, of being careless of the interests of the poor labourers. He could speak from his own knowledge that no man. was more studious of their in terests than the Noble Duke. He strongly condemned the course the Hon. Member had taken of originating such a discussion, as it might tend to increase the com mission of the crime. Mr. BRIGHT said he had noticed ever since he had had the• honour of holding a seat in that House, and ever since he had been in the habit of reading the accounts of its proceedings in the public journals, that there was a great disinclination to inquire into anything connected with the agricultural districts. •If such an inquiry was proposed, it was sure to be discovered that the time was most inconvenient for it. Why all this sensibility should exist was more than he could understand, except by re ferring it to some questions with which many Hon. Gentlemen opposite did not thi n k it a d v i sa bl e to trou bl e the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the ,absence of the Hon. Member for Manchester, who, he said, had been enjoying himself in the country, while he and his colleagues bad been employed in looking after the interest of the poor, in arranging the clauses of the Poor-law Amendment Act. It was an excellent occupation, and one there was much occasion for ; but it was just as useful to the country for some Members of that House to apply their minds to disco vering what were the true causes of pauperism, as in treating pauperism as it existed, and devising schemes for relieving it. The Right Hon. Baronet had spoken of a certain clergyman as a ", popularity-hunting parson." Nothing was more easy than to use phrases for the purpose of getting rid of, a fact which any individual might state. But this popularity-hunting 'arson happened to be connected with the aristocracy of the country. He wrote—or somebody else wrote for him—Honourable before his name; and connected with the aristocracy and the Church, it was not likely that he would run away with by any absurd or vulgar sympathies with the popu lation among whom he lived. Any Hon. Gentleman ac quainted with the county of Dorsetahire must know that that gentleman was most active and zealous in discharg ing the duties of his office, and was most anxious in his desire to promote the wellbeing of those among whom he resided. The Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the favourable account he had received from the Judges he had sent into the counties where these crimes had taken place ;—why no one supposed that witnesses could not be had • no one supposed that convicti ons cou ld not be obtained; they knew perfectly well that during the last few weeks there had not been so many of these outrages committed, as during some previous weeks. But was it to be premised from that, that the causes of incendia rism had been removed ? Why, be knew, if the Right Hon, Baronet or Hon. Gentlemen connected with those counties did not, that there had been many threatening letters sent in various parts of these districts within a very recent period. It was because his Hon. Friend did not wish to add to all the alarm that prevailed, by stating the circumstances that had come to his know ledge during his visit to Suffolk, that he had not men tioned them particularly. He believed that the causes of these outrages had not been by any means removed, and that they might increase rather than diminish. With respect to the question of wages which had been alluded to by the Hon. Member for South Norfolk, he could assure him that there had never been a single meeting in an agricultural county at which Ms Hon. Friend. the Member for Stockport and himself had at tended during the last year, at which they had not endeavoured to elucidate the subject of wages to the meeting, so as to show that the rate of wages was not at the disposal of the farmers, but depended mainly on the number of the labourers as compared with the amount of work to be done. If the Hon. Gentleman opposite had, in discussions in that House, taken an equally wise course, there would have been much less ill-feeling between the employers and the employed than there was at present. But, for him self, he could say that there was no man living whose conscience was clearer of any imputation of having endeavoured to stir up the labouring population against those by whom they were employed, and on whose lands they lived. He had spoken of the sensibility which Hon. Members opposite displayed upon agricultural questions. Now, at an early period of the present session, a motion had been made for a Committee of Inquiry into the effect of, the protection duty on farmers and farm-labourers. How was that motion met ? The Right Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, argued that there were persons on whom the appointment of the Committee would have an unfavour able effect, particularly considering the quarter from whence the proposition came. The sensibilities of Hon. Gentlemen prevented him from granting that Committee, though it would have been granted to any other interest. The Right Hon. Baronet stated that this crime had not been so frequent during the last week as it had been before, and that there was no disposition in the district itself that these things should be inquired into. Now, there was a meeting of the inhabitants of Rattlesden to take into consideration the statement which appeared in the Times, and they wished that a Commission should be appointed to inquire into the causes of incendiarism. That fact was not only a justification of his Hon. Friend, but a condemnation of the Member for Essex, who had neversought for an inquiry into their cause. Why, if only one fire every month had occurred in the manufactur ing districts, nothingshould have been left undone to in vestigate a state of things so alarming. And was it not alarming that so many fires were taking place in those counties ? Was it nothing that the insurance-offices were suffering ?—that the tenant-farmers were suffer ing?—and that there was such an increase of one of the worst of crimes? And yet they were taunted with inter- ' fering with what was not their concern. Butif the Govern ment hadinstituted no inquiry, the Times and Chronicle had; and they differed as to the cause of these fires. The Times stated that the new poor-law was the cause of them. The Chronicle said "No ; for the crime existed under the old law, but the no longer bearable distress of the labourer was the cause of it." He was yesterday in Kent, and he stopped at an inn, kept by a respectable person who was a Tory, and always supported the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Paymaster of the Forces. He (Mr. Bright) had asked him if there was any truth in the statement, that the new poor-law was harsh upon the labourer ?• He replied that no person who was rated at less than 25 per cent. could be a guardian, and there fore no person but the farmers could be elected guardians, and that the labourer had no chance under such a system, for he had a great difficulty to, make both ends whichme t . pressedßli t th e uponr e thea labourer, grievance fo rbefo re therethe poor-law w ere more persons in those counties than there was employment for, and he believed that on the landlords rested the responsibility of such a state of things. The Mem ber for Northamptonshire had, on a former occasion, accused him of saying that that House was a club of landowners, and legislated for the benefit of landowners ; but the public must have come to that conclusion, though he had not said • so. Rents in Suffolk were as high, or higher, than they were fifty years ago, but the return of capital employed by tenants was not much higher now than it was then, and the condition of the labourers was becoming worse, and worse. There was the keenest competition amongst all the classes of the community : except %unapt the landowners, who ,_. t "tt V, St N. t, i.i.±4...:146 .N-'..A.l` ttiti/ALY_ AMP.. PLY' _fig I ii..4i'.6„. )r . LI -zu, had sheltered themselves from that competition, which was augmented in consequence of the laws ,which they yli had passed to protecsmOlSSs Wltii regard to ths rithilber Cr labourers in Suffolk, he would ask lion. Gentlemen connected with that county to look at the returns which had lately been laid on the table of that House. It appeared from those returns that is that county alone 39,489 persons Were relieved clurifig the quarter ending 1843, from the poor-rates. It ap peared that the number of paupers was 13 per cent. of the whole population of the c o un ty, th a t in Sussex the number of paupers was fourteen per cent. of the whole population. Here was another proof that the popula tion was greater than the employment that could be afforded. It appeared from the late census, which was made up to 1841, that the increase in the population, during the last ten years, had been something more than fourteen per cent., and there was reason to believe that the increase of births over deaths was as great in Suffolk as in any other county. Now, how great a portion of fourteen per cent. had Suffolk maintained on its own soil? Nut more than six per cent. Only six per cent. had remained to increase the population of the county, and the rest were, by the necessity of the case, driven to seek employment elsewhere. In the purely agri cultural counties they had retained on their own soil a quarter of the per centage of births over deaths as the population of those counties fur the last ten years. But where had the surplus found an asylum ? The returns would show ; for in Mon mouthshire the population had increased 36 per cent., though the number of births over deaths was 14 per cent., or the same as that of the agricultural counties. In Lancashire the increase was 24 per cent. In Durham, where the mines were numerous, the increase was 27 per cent. In Staffordshire, 24 per cent. In Warwickshire, where the great manufacturing town of Birmingham was, 19 percent. ; and in the West Riding of Yorkshire, where the linen and worsted trades were carried on, 18 per cent. Thus it would be seen that the manufac• taring districts had absorbed the surplus of the population which the agricultural counties were unable to employ. The effect of restrictions on trade' was such as to make the natural source of employment less than it would otherwise be, and even to make the culti vation of the soil less efficient than it would be if trade were unrestricted. They might fail in their attempts to free the industry of the labourers, but the increase of the population would at length force them to do that which they might have it in their power to yield to the wishes of a large portion of their countrymen. He believed that that House was accountable for the crimes that were taking place in Suffolk, Sussex, Norfolk, and Cam bridgeshire, and that this state of things arose from their own vicious legislation, and would continue till their return to sound principles. They forgot that property had any duties.—(Hear.) Th9y considered that they had nothing to do but to put their rents in their pockets. Quad tuum tene seemed to be their motto, and those who were under them were helpless because they were poor, and they had no political power, beceause the landlords usurped it themselves. He had seen, in one newspaper, ninety-eight advertisements for the sale of farming stock at one time. One would say that the landowners suffered by this, but in consequence of another law, that was just less bad than the one which he was condemning, the landlord seized upon everything when one of his tenants failed, and left nothing for the wheelwright and grocer, to whom he might be indebted.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Then, had they nothing to answer for the mode in which they kept game? A Noble Lord, a relation of the Hon. Member for Suffolk, quoted the opinion of Mr. Neave, who said that the farmers justly complained of the enormous quantity of game, by which their crops were quite" eaten up. That these deprived them of more food than would keep the poor of the parish; and he instanced one farm of' 200 acres, on which 2,000 rabbits had been killed, and he calculated that these destroyed more than 300 sheep would in the same time. It was necessary that those things should be stated. If they were true, it was a dis grace to the landowners. If it were untrue he should be glad of it, and he would not state it again, either there or elsewhere. A rural poliee was kept up by the gentry to watch game, and to prevent poaching. Look to what had taken place on the estate of the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire. A gamekeeper had been killed, for which one person was hanged, and four others were in the Penitentiary, or on their way to the penal settlements. Thus six families were deprived of their husbands and fathers for the purpose of main taining those puerile and childish sports which should be condemned in a country so densely populated as this. A circumstance of a similar nature occurred on the estate of the Marquis of Normanby, and also in the county of Surrey and in Coventry. In Scotland, the farmers complained of this system as destructive of their farms, and demoralising to the minds of themselves and their labourers. Misery, from suffering, was at the bot tom of the outrages which had taken place, and though the Hon. Gentlemen opposite might seem to deny it, he believed in his conscience that they knew it to be case. He had yesterday travelled from Gravesend to Canter bury, and from thence to town, and no person could see the country through which he travelled without coming to the conclusion that the labouring population of the country was grossly ignorant, and upon them rested the reaponsibility. The consequence was, that their t o il was reqnited by a gaol, as poachers, or by the work house, as paupers. They said that this law was passed to protect native industry. He asserted it was passed to protect native idleness, and to impoverish native industry. The Hon. Member for West Suffolk made a speech, in which he believed he said that severer punishments ought to be established in order to repress the crime of burning. A return lately presented to the House of the number of persons convicted and punished for the crime of arson for some years past, showed that front 1831 to 1836 the committals were 493, the convic tions 119, and the executions .58. Was it not a horrible state of things which produced the destruction of so much property, and then ended it—but it did not end it—by the execution of fifty-eight of their fellow-men ? He thought it was one of the proudest boasts of the late Government, that they had mitigated the terms of the criminal code, and he trusted the present Government would follow their example. From 1838 to 1843, during which time there, was no hanging for burnings, the number of committals was 344, and the number of convictions 117, thus showing that the number of convictions was greater in proportion - to the number of committals, than when the punishment was capital, because the juries were not desirous to convict when they knew that death was the penalty. Whoever might be anxious to return to the system of hanging, in order to put down this system, the feeling must be engendered by apprehension. The landlords lived in a state of great diffiulty ; they kept watchers upon nearly every farm ; being apprehensive of these dis asters, they became timid, and there was nothing so near timidity as cowardice. Hanging would have no effect in suppressing incendiarism. To suppose - that such a state of things was to be, put down only by the halter was absurd in the extreme. They knew that the population was in a hopeless, miserable, and despairing condition, and yet they had allowed the session to pass by, and not one of them had proclaimed the calamities which had afflicted their own districts ; but they now taunted them, which was inimical to the interests of those districts. Not one of their greatest flatterers in their own counties would refuse to acknowledge that they had on all occasions told the labourers that they were not to blame the farmers for their low wages, but the system which unhappily prevails in this country. — (Hear, hear.)—They need not tell the farmers to rely upon the assurance of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), made, in a tone of triumph which he did not as sume when he expected to be in a minority, that the corn-law was to be continued for ever • but they should teach them to rely upon that which all' men had relied upon, who had succeeded best in . every decription of la bour—whether agricultural ,or manufacturing. There were Gentlemen on the other side of the House, who as much disapproved of such conduct as he (Mr. Bright) did. They had protected the labourers into miserable hovels, gaols, and workhouses.- The population was con stantly increasing, and they had no work for them ; the manufacturing districts were continually drawing off a portion of the population, which would otheswise in crease the existing calamity. He asked them now to do a very small thing, in order to see whether farming could not be carried on prosperously as well as - other trades. He had only yesterday read the life of William Caxton, - the first English printer. It ap peared from that that - an ordinance was passed in the engagedlandlords ih that l44lP th in e "pleloicphlestatedime coun try were greatly damaged by the reason of the bring sobfa ,that i n t this ing'of corn beyond the seas to keep down the price in this country. Here were their ancestors, of four hundred years ago—men who had no Adam Smith to go to—men who received no such lessons as had been given to Honourable Gen tleman opposite, session after session, by those whom they had placed in power, using precisely the language common in the present day. They had denied, because they had not the power to give, protection to labourers and manufacturers; and then, with a vast deal of paint on the panels of their coaches, they came down to the House to legislate for themselves. The worst thing he wished them was, that when that retribution came upon the landlords of this country, which must come on such legislation, it might please Heaven to bless them with greater mercy than they had shown to the labourers of this country. Col. RUSHBROOKE said the Hon. Gentleman had accused him of advocating the infliction of the punish ment of death for this crime. He certainly understood the language of the petition which he had presented on that subject held it best that in a crime of this na ture capital punishment should be inflicted in extreme cases. The Hon. Gentleman had charged him with stating that there was no destitution whatever in the county with which he was connected. He had spoken only of his own neighbourhood ; what might be the case in other districts he would not pretend to say. Mr. BRAMSTONE said, the Hon. Gentleman had said that there would be no difficulty in obtaining con victions in these cases. If a Commission were issued in the time - and temper of the speeches of Hon. Gentlemen opposite, thesswould have a general conflagration, instead of a decrease in the number of fires. It was stated by Mr. Baron Parke, in his charge to the grand jury, that the great majority of the fires were • not committed by agricultural labourers in distress, but by girls and boys under ten years of age. Three children were to be' tried, whose respective ages were 8,9, and 10 ; and it appeared that, instead of being in a distressed condition, they were living comfortably with their masters and mistresses. He, for one, begged to thank the Right Hon. Gentleman for refusing to grant this Commission. Lord HENNIKER said it had been his duty to apply to the Right Hon: Gentleman (Sir 1. Graham) on niore than one occasion on this subject, and he begged to bear his testimony to his earnest endeavours to ascertain the causes of this incendiarism.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Manchester formerly joined in the weed of praise paid to the landlords and farmers of Suffolk, for their conduct to the working classes.—(Dear, hear.) That they were no less anxious now to promote the in terests of the working classes than in former times, was .:• . shown by the number of c h ar it a bl e in s tit u tio ns ' whicti 'existed,in that r esaint.y. /f the , Hen. MeMber for Derhama shduld ei , er +i'ht erasterti ,cliitilct 0 Suffolk, he believed his opinion on this subject would unckrgo an entire change.—(Hear, hear.) Although the Hon. Member for Manchester had fairly stated the number of fires, he had not fairly st a t e d' th e causes t o w hi c h they Were Attributable.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT said he had not intended to bring 'any special charge against the landlords of Suffolk espe cially. He believed his charge applied to those of the whole country.—(Heat, hear.) Mr. VILLIERS said, he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman ought to regret the tone in which he had refused to accede to the motion, seeing that the Noble Lord (Henniker) had admitted that he went to him for the purpose of urging upon him the necessity of adopting some steps for the suppression of the fires.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Righ Hon. Gentleman had commenced by saying that it would not become him to impute motives ; he wished he had not insinuated one. Why the Right Hon. Baronet had introduced his measure for the alteration of the poor-law solely in consequence of the agitation on the subject. If he mistook not, the Right Hon. Baronet said that he had done it unwillingly. Why did he not. address the same sort of speech as he had addressed to the Hon. Member for Manchester, to those Hon. Gentlemen who sat behind him, when they urged on the question of the repeal of the poor-law ?—(Cheers.) There was not a sentence of his Honourable Friend's speech that was half so inflammatory, or half so violent as the speeches which he had heard made in that House on the subject of the poor-law.—(Hear, hear.) Why did the Right Hon.- Baronet reserve his attack fur the Hon. Member for Manchester? Why, it was because, as had been just observed by his lion. Friend the Member for Durham, there was a peculiar sensitiveness on the subject, because the majority of that House were interested in keeping up an artificial price for the fruits of the soil.—(Cheers.) It was not the free-traders who were to blame, because the question of the corn-laws was introduced whenever any question was raised as to the condition of the poor. It was the landowners themselves who always made the condition of the poor the excuse for maintaining the corn-laws, they said the laws were to be maintained be cause they were for the benefit of the agricultural labourer. The condition of the poor was always pleaded as the excuse for maintaining these laws, and now that the whole country was alarmed in consequence of the incendiarism prevalent in these districts, where the condition of the agricultural poor was known to be so miserable, surely a motion for inquiring into their condition was not ill-placed. The Hon. Gentle man who represented the county of Suffolk stated that they had, not brought the condition of the poor of that county before the House, because they had asked the Right Hon. Baronet on the subject, and had confidence in him. But if the House and the country wanted to know the cause of the distress--the distress was not caused by the-new Poor-law—it had been going on for the last twenty years. As far back as 1824, they had had evidence of the deteriorated condition of the people. He had found letters in • the Times, describing the mise rable condition of the agricultural population in the counties of Suffolk, Norfolk, and Essex, written before the new Poor-law was enacted. He would read to the House a letter which appeared in the Times in the year 1830, signed " A Labourer."—(The ilon. Gentlemen here read extracts from the letter referred to, in which the writer represented the condition of the labouring population as being miserable in the extreme. Their wages were low, and he attributed that circumstance to the operation of the old law, under which the farmers paid their labourers half wages, and sent them to the parish to make' , up the difference. The writer then went on to state, that he heard that a law had been passed to keep up the price of corn, for the good of the proprietors of land ; and he suggested the propriety of passing a law compelling the farmer to pay his labourer the value of three pecks of flour a week as wages.) That letter had been made the subject of a leading article in the Times in 1830. It was quite evi dent that the new poor-law was not an adequate cause to account for the distress. The Times was quite right in describing the people as in great distress ; and they had been as much distressed under the old law as they were under the new one. There had been something for the last twenty years continually deteriorating the condition of the people of this country ; and that was, that during the whole of that period the population had been in creasing, the demand for employment had been dimi nishing; and the price of food had been rising. In 1824, a clergyman, who had given evidence before a Commit tee of that House, stated that the condition of the people was deteriorating, that their wages were low, and that they were becoming pauperised. If ever there was an occasion when inquiry into the condition of the_ poor was called for, it was at the present moment. The Hon. Members for - Suffolk said the people were well off ; at the same time it could not be denied that these ineen-, diary fires had occurred. The insurance -offices, it was stated, had paid four times as much as they had received in those counties ; and an idea was prevalent among the proprietors of those offices, that the parties themselves had in many instances destroyed the property. Seeing • these various contradictory statements, the Government ought to make inquiry. It was most desirable to ascer tain the cause of the distress, and his Hon. Friend the Member for Manchester had done his duty in bringing' it before the House. A more proper or a more discreet motion could not be made, and he should certainly vote in favour of it. Sir J. TYRRELL thought the speeches of the Hon. Members for Manchester and Durham were calculated to excite the loWer orders, and possessed all the charac-: teristics of incendiary speeches. Mr. VILLIERS rose to order. He wished to know what the Right •Hon. Baronet meant by " incendiary speeches?" Sir J. TYRRELL' had said that, to his humble ap , prehension, the character of the speeches of the Hon. Member for Durham and the Hon. Member for Man chester possessed all the characteristics of incendiary speeches.—(Hear, hear.) If their object had been to discourage incendiary fires, he must say that speeches less calculated to attain such All object he had never heard. It must be that he was a person of weak com prehension, for they had heard from high authority that persons representing the agricultural districts were not persons of very acute perception, and that must be some apology for bim.(Cheers and laughter.) The fact was, this debate was' an adjourned corn-law debate, and whenever he had entered the House of late he had heard little else. These unfortunate fires had now • ceased; and if the speeches were incendiary speeches, and the fires should break out again, they would see to whose ability they might attri bute them.—(A laugh.) Much had been said of the want of employment in the manufacturing districts. He attributed much of that to the character of the opposi tion to the corn-laws which had been put forward by, the late Government, and the low farmers and unin formed people had•not hitherto had such confidence in her Majesty's present Ministers on the subject of the corn-laws—(Opposition cheers)--as to induce them to give increased employment. (Renewed Opposition cheers.) He always read the Money and City article, and sometimes not without disgust, for whenever any proposition was brought forward for a railroad, however miserable the prospect of traffic might be, there • was plenty of capital to support it. But those capitalists would not invest one farthing in the cultivation of the soil. The Hon. Member for Durham had accused him of a cruel disposition, because he had presented a peti tion for a more severe punishment for the crime of incen diarism. In the only case inwhich a person advanced in years had confessed to the crime of incendiarism, he had stated that be had been induced to set the property on fire in order to be transported. Now, the Hon. Member for Durham could not produce an instance in which a person had committed incendiarism for the purpose of being hung.—(Loud laughter.) It had been his misfor tune to_present a petition praying for increased punish ment for the crime of incendiarism, but he did Rot say that he wished to have that crime punished capitally. Now, the farmers would, he thought, have greater con fidence in the' Government since their recent declaration, and increased employment of labour would be the conse quence, more particularly after they had witnessed the expiring effort of the Anti-Corn-law League a few nights since. The House then divided, when there appeared-- - Foi going into a Committee of Supply 130 For Mr. Gibson's amendment Majority Upon entering the gallery we, found the House in Committee, and Mr. WYSE moving on the grant of Education (Ire land), " That a dutiful address be presented to her Ma jesty,. humbly representing to her Majesty the import ance of due provision being made for the University edu cation of her Roman Catholic subjects of Ireland, espe cially of such as are intended for the priesthood, and the inadequacy of the means and system now existing for the attainment of such object ; and further praying her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to give directions, by an enlargement and improvement of exist ing arrangements, either by opening the emoluments and honours as well as studies of the University of Dnblin to Roman Catholics as well asProtestants, and raising the College of MaYnooth to the dignity of a theological faculty of the said university, or by founding and main tsining a Roman Catholic university, with equal rank, endowments, and privileges with those of the University of Dublin, or by such othe r , means a s h er M a j esty i n her wisdom and benevolence May deem fit, adequately to supply the deficiencies no w complained of, and, as far as may be; effectually provide for the future m ora l an d in tellectual wants of the Roman Catholic inhabitants ; thus promoting the advancement and happiness, not of Roman Catholics only, but of all classes and persuasions of the Irish people." He would wish to exclude all partisan and political con siderations ici the consideration of this question. An impression had gone abrad, that he (Mr. Wyse) had, on a previous occasion, endeavoured to disparage the utility and impbrtance of t h e Dublin University. No thing could be further from his intention. He had been educated himself there, and entertained the most devoted affection for the institution. He had no reason to com plain of any unjust interference of the Dublin University with the religion of its pupils. During his time there he never had observed it, and he. believed that, as far as their rules and regulations permitted, nothing could be more tolerant. But, he did not think that the rules of that University were made in a spirit of toleration, and that it could be made much more beneficial to the Catholic community than it was at present.—(Hear, hear.) Nor were the difficulties in making it so great as were generally supposed. It was no longer contended that education was not necessary to- enable men to govern and obey properly . ; and subjects of every Government had a right to claim from it ' instruction, i n at least the elem en t ary princi ples of education. The elementary education ' of the people had engaged su ccessiv e Governments, and he must say that they had promoted it by every means in their power. He. had called_ upon the G ov e rnmen t . o f that day to throw open the University to -Catholics, or to help to establish a Catholic University by in side. lle did this while he had the honour to be a Member of thd,4 dovrtrinierit, and.* was there to repeat his solici‘ tation to the present abi.drnoi6nty when new circum stances had arisen, and when the case had become more argent. The first view which naturally presented itself to their eyes, *as the number of universities in existence . • in Irelani. The College of Maynooth had no preten sions to be called a university, still lees the academy of Belfast. He would ask whether any other toy - entry in Europe was similarly situated to Ireland, with respect to her universities. Was there any other country where there was but one university to 8,000,000 of inhabitants. He looked round him, and directed his attention to Ger many. He found that in Germany there was an aggre gate of not less than forty universities. He found that in the smallest States in that country there were large and flourishing establishments. If he looked to PruSsis, were there were only twelve millions of inhabitants, he found that there were not less than six universities. -He looked to Belgium and to Holland, and he found that the in habitants were better provided with respect to the uni versities, in proportion to the inhabitants, than in Ger many. He found that there were four universities, and in Belgium four. In Belgium there were two millions and a half of inhabitants, and in Holland there were four mil lions. In Holland there were in the universities 900 students, and in Belgium, 1,400. In France, too, it was the same— there were universities all over France. Even in Italy, in the Pope's doininions, which had been so much vilified, there were five secondary universities, and two principal ones. In the small state of Florence there were not less than ten universities. So in America. From north to south universities were continually rising up. In a few days they would be called upon to vote an estimate for not less than four universities, while that country did not contain more than two millions of inhabitants, and in Ireland there was but one university for eight millions of inhabitants. It was said that this must ne cessarily be a Protestant university, and therefore it was impossible to convert that university to Catholic pur poses. There was a misconception on both these points —misconception with respect to the original character of the endowment, and misconception as to the means by which it might be converted. It need not be converted to Catholic purposes, but it should be: open to national purposes,. whether those pur poses were Protestant or Catholic. The University of Dublin was generally supposed to have been founded by Elizabeth. This was partly true, but the foundation established by Elizabeth was only an atonement for the loss of the ancient University. The old Uni versity of Ireland was founded in the year 1812, by John Elyard, Archbishop of Dublin, who obtained from Pope Clement V. a bull for its foundation. After a considerable time that University fell into disuse, and it was supplied by other institutions for the learning of the people. In the year 1475 the University was re established in the capital city of the kingdom, in consequence of a memorial which was addressed to Pope Pius IV., who issued a bull, authorising the new foundation. this Catholic university obtained the ap probation . of the monarch of the day, as well as of the holy see. This university continued in existence until the confiscation of the monasteries, when it fell with other institutions in Ireland ; and it was not again es tablished till the time of Elizabeth. It continued in ex istence during the successive times of trouble, and during that time the preservation of the library and other valuable parts of the institution was principally attributed to the Catholic members of that university. In 1703, however, an Act was passed by which Catholics were excluded from that university, and this Act had re mained in force down to the present time. Students en tering. ;the university were, by the pres'ent rules, com pelled to take the Sacrament, and give other proofs of their being members of the Protestant persuasion. Now, the same authority that had established those rules, could, if it thought fit, repeal them ; and there was no reason why there should not be added a number of Ca tholic fellowships to those now in existence. He would now proceed to inquire what were the funds and the meant; within their power of 'extending the benefits to this institution. He had not been able to get at any accurate account of the funds of this College ; the re turns did not state them, and, therefore, he (Mr Wyse): had been compelled to get indirectly such in: formation as he could. The chief funds were derived from land, not less than 231,000 acres in extent. The exact value of this land he knew not, but its general state of cultivation and improvement was, he be lieved, about equal to Bishops' lands in that country. Still they had an immense estate, the product of which must, even under the most disad-. vantageous management, be exceedingly great. Next to the revenue from land was the revenue from fees, which amounted to 5,6091. 15s. This sum was' from fees. Here then were the means of extensive usefulness, had they the power and authority by law to effect it. They had that power by special Act of Parliament. By the 14th and 15th of Charles 11., the Lord Lieutenant, by and with the advice of his Council, had the power to erect from these funds another college, to be called King's College, and the endowment of the said college was to be regulated and governed, not by the old law of Elizabeth, but by such laws and institutions as her Majesty might think fit. Therefore they had the power .to establish another college, and they had moreover the power to establish new institutions, different from those which otherwise might prevail, and which could be made in perfect consonance and harmony with the habits, manners, and opinions of the present day. Now he would turn to his second point. They had a Roman Catholic population to deal with in Ireland. They had admitted that that population ought to be educated— that the whole population of this great country ought to be educated, or why had they for sessions past—why had they this very session—voted money and - passed laws for this very purpose?— (Hear, hear.) And they had declared, too, that all education to be sound should be religious.—(Tory cheers.) Then, ought they not to be most careful of the religious education of this religious educator?—(Cheers.) Ought they not to afford the very best means in their power to educate the priests of Ireland that the people of Ireland might be educated too. And yet all they did was give them May nooth—a miserable hovel—and to dole out a few paltry, pounds with the niggard hand of cold charity.—(Hear.) He asked Honourable Gentlemen on the other side, set ting aside all political •questions, to consider the subject, and see if something could not be done , to remedy the grievances of which the Catholics complained. But then it was said this could not be accomplished. He said that it might, either by annexing Maynootb and the College at Belfast with the University of Dublin, making the college at Dublin the proper place for the education of Protestants, May nooth for Catholics, and Belfast for the Presbyterians ; by that means they would link the professors of the different religions in Christian brotherhood. But it might be said, would Maynooth agree to this ? or would Dublin allow a new intruder, or become the abettor of Presbyterians ? There would be nothing of the sort ; he could not see why the same course could not be adopted with respect to the University of Dublin, and Maynooth, and Belfast, as had been done with re spect to Oxford, King's , College, and the London Uni versity. He would aggregate the three, giving to each of them the - power of conferring degrees in everything except theology. He did not think the college of Belfast would object to this ; and if, upon consideration, it was found impossible, there was no other course left open but to establish a Catholic university in Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) If they would not give them the first,. they owed them the second. There were places in Ire land where universities might be established ; in Cork they might lay the foundation of Catholic instruction. He wished to lay these observations before the Right Hon. Baronet, knowing that at this particular moment, it would be impossible to take the opinion of the House: upon the question, nor indeed did he wish to do so ; he: would leave it for the present session in the hands of the Right Hon. Baronet. Sir It PEEL said he believed he was stating what, would be in conformity with the feeling of the House,' and of both sides of the House, when he said that no Member of that House was better entitled to take up the subject than the Hon. Gentleman. He knew that no Member of that House had devoted more time and attention to the subject of the best means of spreading the advantages of education throughout the country.. He must also say that the Right Honourable Member had another qualification, besides that of experience— the high qualification of discussing the subject with that temper and moderation which. ensured, amidst all the animosities that divided them, an impartial and favour able consideration of the question. He rejoiced, then, that the Hon. Gentleman had brought forward this mo tion, and that he had made his observations in a manper that precluded him from taking the sense of the House upon it. The vote they were now discussing was one for English education, and he presumed the Right• Hon. Gentleman had made his observations on that vote so as. to preclude them from coming to a hostile decision, and he rejoiced that the House was not to be called on to; give an expression of its opinion. The Right Honourable Member had alluded to the state of elementary educa tion in Ireland. It must be admitted that the state of this elementary education was satis tisfactory. 'Her Majesty's Government had manifested' a desire to- add to the efficiency of that system. The vote last year for the national system of education was 50,0001. They proposed in the present year to ask for an addition of 25,0001., making for the present year the sum of 75;000/. Within a very short time, there had been a report laid on the table of the House, signed by the ,Commissioners, which stated that the number of schools was 2,721, attended by 319,792 children, the increase of attendance in the present year over the last being 35,000. j The report also stated that the un founded impressions that prevailed with respect to this system of education were rapidly disappearing. So far, then, the state of elementary education in Ireland was a subject of congratulation. With respect to the other subject ; he had great satisfaction in assuring the Right Hon. Gentleman that it was one that occupied the serious consideration of her Majesty's Government. The Hon. Gentleman must excuse him if, on this occasion' he purposely foreboro from making any statement on the subject, not because he was not- prepared to enter into details; but it would be impossible in the course of the present session to submit any practical measure on the subject. It would be infinitely better to avoid al together entering into such details, which must be stated many months before they could be carried into effect. But he had no hesitation in stating the result of the consideration that they had given the subject—it was, that the means of acadeinical education in Ire land were very defective.—(Hear, hear.) There were institutions in the character of universities —Trinity College, Dublin, the Belfast Institution, and the College of Maynooth. As far as the education of the laity was concerned—the academical education of those of more advanced years than were intended to be included in the national system of education—when they compared it with the means of education and the population of other countries, it was impossible not to see that those means were comparatively deficient. He did not at all under value the effect of the upper classes in Ireland being educated in the universities of England. It was a bond -of-`connexion between the- two countries. _ The Hon. Member had not proposed any plan on the subject; and this was a reason why he should ab stain from expressing an opinion as to a preference. 1844. . 0 1"' • fie repeated the demi-, O -4 'n ho had ina- that this subject had occupied the serious t.u.;22ideratio n o f h er Majesty's Government, and that it was one to 'Which the attention of his Noble Friend, who was about to assume the &lief office in Ireland had been directed. At an early period of next session the Government would com mence the measures which it was their intention to adopt; and if those were unsuccessful, the Right Hon. Gentleman would have an opportunity of introducing a measure of his Mill With regard to the College of Maynooth, he would not hesitate to say that it was not in a satisfac tory state.—(Cheers form the Opposition.) If the mo ney granted to Maynooth was a violation of principle, it was equally a violation of principle whether it was small or great ; and he had no hesitation in saying that the present amount was inadequate to meet the purposes for which it was granted. He would *say no more on the subject but that he was impressed with the conviction that it was not in a satisfactory state, and that the posi tion of that College would be one of the subjects to which her Majesty's Government would direct their at tention.—(Hear, hear.) If he entered into details it would be most likely to raise objections, and he would therefore abstain from doing so.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. SHEIL said they were indebted to his Right Hon. Friend, not only for an admirable exposition, but for an excellent speech, characterised by wisdom and by moderation ; and for being the means of inducing the Right. Hon. Gentleman to make the important declara tions of opinion which he had just announced, and which he, for one, must praise reluctantly but most sin cerely.—(Hear, and a laugh.) For the assurances he gave he could not but be thankful. Amongst the other incidents in the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, there was this excellent one, that he availed himself of this oc casion of acknowledging the thanks which his Right Hon. Friend had earned for his labours in the cause of education for many years, always useful, but to a great extent unknown.—(Hear, hear.) He knew that the Education Commission, introduced by the late Govern ment, was founded on the suggestion of his Right Hon. Friend ; and that the plan which they introduced was sketched by him. He would only make one suggestion. His Right Hon. Friend referred to a statute of Charles the Second. There was a more important statute than that, viz., the Act of 1793. It was pro vided by the 7th eectio2 of the 33d of George 111., chap. 21, that Roman Catholics might hold or take de grees of any professors, or be =sit - Zs or feliGws of any college to be hereafter founded, provided that such should be members of the University of Dublin. The Colft - Ze of the Holy Trinity was to be exclusively for Protestant purposes, but in any other colleges, to be hereafter founded, Protestants and Roman Catholics were to be equally admissible. Thus one of the great difficulties at tending this subject would disappear, and if any person should say that they were sapping the foundations of the Church, show him this Act of Parliament, in which was contained its refutation.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. 2i t. said he intended to speak at some length on this question, but after the excellent speech of the Right. Hon. Baronet, he would not detain the House. He thought that if the Government supported the College of Maynooth, as it ought to be supported, they would have sufficient control over the Catholic priesthood. Lord J. MANNERS said he could not refrain from expressing his cordial thanks to the Government for the announcement made that night by the Right Hon. Baronet. H© took that announcement as an earnest of a more consistent and a more prosperous line of policy fur the future, as an earnest of the necessity of governing Ireland on the only true and sound prin ciple on which it could be governed.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that the sentiments expressed by the Right Hon. Baronet would be carried into effect, and that the result would be as prosperous as he was sanguinely inclined to think it would be. He thanked the Right lion. Gentleman opposite for the temperate manner in which he brought forward his motion. He came down for, the purpose of supporting the views disclosed in his motion, and he took that opportunity of again ex pressing his cordial thanks to the Government for the line of policy they indicated that night.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. GROGAN said the announcement of the Right Hon. Gentleman would take Ireland by surprise ; the people of that country were not prepared for such a comprehensive measure. In commencing this work he hoped they would bear in mind that the national system of education now in existence had not been an apple of peace, but in them a source of discord.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever colleges might be established, he hoped the principles of the Protestant Church would be borne in mind. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN begged to inquire whe ther he had rightly understood the Hon. Member for Waterford, that if the Government did not found col leges for the Roman Catholics, they would be driven to found them for themselves, in a spirit of hostility to the Protestant Church ? Mr. WYSE said nothing could be more remote from his intention than to say that the Roman Catholics would establish a college for the purpose of expressing their hostility to the Protestant body. What he had said was, that if the Government did not sympathise with them, and open the University of Dublin, and improve the College of Maynooth, so as to secure their participation in the intellectual rewards of the country, they would be driven to establish a university of their own, which, though it might be productive of some considerable ad vantage, would, as regarded rivalry and competition, be hostile to the Establishment. The motion for granting 40,0001. fox education in Great Britain was then carried. On the motion that 72,0001. be granted to her Majesty for education in Ireland, Colonel VERNER said he had in the last session moved for a return connected with this grant. He did not wish to accuse any person connected with the Na tional Board of having wilfully made a false return, but the return which had been made was very incorrect. There was a school at Newry which had been omitted in the return. He should not move to have the returns amended, for they would serve his purpose even in their present state. He would state a fact IMI hic h had been re lated to him, and which would show the state of instruc tion in those schools. An inquest had been held in one of the school-houses connected with the National Board, and when the witnesses were called, there could not be found a copy of the Testament either in the school or in the schoolmaster's house, on which to swear the witnesses. Mr. M. MILNES thought that if the proposal of her Majesty's Government had been received in a better spirit by the Protestant clergy in Ireland, there would have been less fear of the recurrence of those evils which the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman had adverted to than at present existed.—(Hear, hear.) He rose with great pleasure to express the entire sympathy which he felt with everything that had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, and if the pro posal of the Right Hon. Gentleman should be carried out there would not be a laurel upon his brow that would last longer or brighter. Mr. PLUMPTRE could not look upon this increase in the Maynooth grant as one that was called for on natural grounds. He felt that the Protestants of Ireland would consider themselves wounded, if not neglected, by this proposal of her Majesty's Government. The Prime Minister had been much congratulated by Hon. Gentle men opposite, but he felt that he was not justified in fol lowing them. He felt that he ought not to attempt to foster principles, which as a Protestant it was his d u ty to abjure; and he was sure that the proposition of the Government would not be received by the Protestants of this country in the same spirit with which it had been received in that House. lie should, therefore, divide the Committee against it, even though he stood alone in doing so. Lord PALMERSTON said he merely rose to concur in the expressions of satisfaction at the way in which his Hon. Friend the Member for Waterford (Mr. Wvse) had brought forward his motion, and also at what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) in reply to it. He trusted, by next session, that the Right Hon. Gentleman would be able to arrange a good and useful measure, and he might rest assured that, from that side of the House, as well as from other quarters, he would receive a willing and hearty support. Mr. LEFROY said, while ho honoured the conduct of the Gentleman who brought forward this motion.(Mr. Wyse), as it was consistent with all his former expressed opinions, he must beg to express his regret at the lan guage of the Prime Minister, which, if not inconsistent with his own language on former occasions, was at all events greatly at variance with what a large body of his supporters had a right to expect from him.—(Hear.) Mr. ROSS heartily rejoiced at the progress education was making in Ireland. He was also delighted that from the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet hopes might now be entertained, that education in Ireland would be placed on a proper footing. The question was then put and carried, that 72,0001. should be granted to her Majesty, to defray the expenses of education in Ireland. The sum of 9,0001. was then proposed as the usual grant to the College of Maynooth. Sir G. CLERK said he believed there was an inten tion to divide on the vote, but he understood it would not be further discussed. Lord CLIVE hoped that the Government would ex tend a grant to the Church Education Society of Ireland. Mr. D. BROWNE said, if the Chnrch did not avail itself of a national system of education, it was not the fault of the Government ; andit should be remembered that the Church had 800,000/. a year, to apply to the spiritual teaching of the people. Lord C. HAMILTON said the schools of the Church Society were also open to all who chose to enter them. He thought the schools were equally entitled to a grant from the Government. Sir R. PEEL said the vote for the national schools had been agreed to, and he apprehended that the vote now before the House was the usual vote to the Col lege of Maynooth. The Government had declined to give a separate grant to the Church Education So ciety, on the ground that if they did, there would soon be three separate systems of education--the Roman Catholic, the Established Church, and one for the Presbyterians, who would soon claim with the others. This would rather tend to prevent that friendly feeling and union among the subjects of the Queen differing in their religious faith that was so much to be desired. The present system was intended for a joint system, and it was hoped that the children of Protestants and Roman Catholics might be able to receive together in early life the inestimable benefits of education.—(Hear, hear.) He did hope the hostility which was shown to the sys tem at its earlier stages had much abated. Several clergymen who had formerly opposed.it were now ranked amongst its supporters, and he believed that very erro neous impressions respecting it had been removed.' A Noble Lord said that 33,000 children were educated in the Established Church schools. What he (Sir R. Peel) feared was, that under an exclusive system these chil dren might leave such schools. They were not, there fore, denying any fair claim of the Establishment to consideration in this matter, but really only acting from a desire not to sow what might prove the seed of further discord. Before he concluded, he must express a hope that Hon. Members would not draw too sanguine con , elusions from what had fallen from him in the earlier S LT N. 4......6x_ ~.;) ~..... ..,.....,„,,y.,.., ..,:„ ...!:„....,. 2i....0 , .2...... r.... . ..4,,.. V2'eo l „,, part of the evening. What he had. - "Said\Ofi i - -':` -1 this—that ,her Majesty's Governmerit,w e i e j ' - 5' that the means of academical educatioVih-IrelAut Itevgt defective and that they intended to apply themselves'tif the consideration of that subject in a friendly and kindly spirit, and in the hope of being able to hold out-=not to Roman Catholics only, but to the people of Ireland ge nerally, a system of academical education in which all classes might alike participate.—(Hear, hear.) He hadl said, also, that the Government did not think that the situation of the College of Maynooth was satisfactory, and that that part of the subject would not be excluded from their consideration. _ . . _ Mr. BELLEW said 80,0001. a-year was exclusively ap plied to the education of Protestants, besides the means at the disposal of Trinity College ; so that the Catkoges were those who had a right to complain. Mr. S. O'BRIEN said that the Right Hon. Baronet had misapprehended what had fallen from kis Noble Friend, the Member for Tyrone. lie understood his Noble Friend to say, not that he wished for a separate Stae education in connexion with the State, but that as there was a Church society in Ireland, they ought to get a portion of the grant. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Committee divided, when there appeared— For the vote Against it Majority for the vote The House then resumed ; the Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again on Monday at five o'clock. Mr. SIIEIL gave notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on Monday, he would move that a' Select Committee be appointed to inquire and report how the French poss2ssions in Africa were acquired, and how far their extension is consistent with the political and com mercial interests of this country. Sir H. PEEL said he must say that it was the most extraordinary motion he had ever heard. CHURCH ENDOWMENT BILL. The House then went into Committee on the Church Endowment Bill. The House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received on Monday next. THREE-AND-A-HALF PER CENTS. DISSENi- TIENTS BILL. The House then resolved itself into Committee, fn order to enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pro pose a resolution, on which to found a Bill for paying oft the dissentients from the commutation of the Three znd-a-Half per Cents. Stock. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in pro posing 1)10 . resolution, said that the number of dissen tients was oni; to the amount of 113,0002, and that hp was of opinion, tht:! even that sum would be lessened. The resolution was tt; reed to. The House resumed, and Lhe resolution was ordered to be reported on Monday. Sir JAMES GRAHAM obtained leave to bring,irt a Bill for suspending, until the 31st day of December, 1847, the operation of the new arrangement of dio ceses, so far as it affects the existing ecclesiastical juris dictions, and for obtaining returns from and the in spection of the registries of such jurisdiction. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter before Two o'Clock. NAVAL INTELLIGENCE. ROYAL MARINE CORPS. —A court-martial is being held at Woolwich, Colonel Mercer, president, on First- Lieutenant Charles Louis, for being found absent from his dutl last week at Deptford Dockyard, when the storeship Madras was on fire. We believe it will dpee to-day. It is likely the above circumstance wall cause some alteration to be made in the number of officers appointed to the guard at Deptford; at present only one captain and two subalterns have the whole of the duty to pea form with 150 men, consequently only on a portion of every third day is the subaltern off duty; and the cap tain may be considered to be always on duty. It is said the authorities will order a field officer in command, wAth a proportionate number of subordinate officers, to such a charge. It has been a matter of surprise that arcong the pro motions which have lately appeared in the Gazette officers belonging to this gallant corps, the name of die officer who commanded the guard of honour at this' em barkation of the Emperor of Russia, and who was in troduced to his Imperial Majesty, has not appeared. We hear this officer stands alone, as having received neither present nor promotion. The Earl of Haddington and the other Loads of the Admiralty visited Deptford Dockyard on Tuesday, and mastered the officers and men belonging to the ester• blishment. The Collingwood, 80, Captain H. Eden, bent sails and crossed topgallant-yards on Tuesday, and it is ex pected will leave fprtsmouth Harbour for Spithead on Saturday. She has b very fine set of men on board, to all appearance, both as respects their physical and sailor-like qualities. She will be ready for sea on lie 25th instant. The Queen, 110, Coptain Martin, was taken into dock at Portsmouth, on Monday, all standing, with her middle and main-deck guns in, and all her stores, en board, under the charge of Mr. Bellamy, the master. On Tuesday morning her pendant was re-hoisted, being Commissioned by Lieutenant Robert Ball, of the Camperdown. She will remain in dock until some alteration is made in her cabins and other to:- ternal fittings. Her copper is in good condition, merely requiring the edges of the sheets to be beaten sown. The commissions of the other officers are not dated. As soon as the stores of the Camperdown are returned, they and the crew will be turned over to the Queen, using the Camperdown for their hulk until the Queen is out of dock, which will not be until the next spring tided. The Seaflower, cutter, Lieutenant Commander Robil liard, it has been found, requires extensive repairs. The shipwrights are at work on her, in the ditch dock, Posts mouth. _ . . The Superb, 80, advanced ship, has been taken into dock to be cleaned. The Indus, 78, supernumerary advanced ship fdr Portsmouth, instead of the Malabar, was undocked, at Devonport, on Tuesday morning. The Terrible, steam-frigate, building at Deptford, is to have tubular boiler.s, and small engines to filch the boilers. The Firefly, surveying steam-vessel, CErptain F. W. Beechy, arrived at Devonport on Tuesday evening, to be paid advance wages, previously to commencing ;:er sur veying duties. The Lyra, 4, old brig, is to be fitted with jury gear, at Devonport, and taken to Greatham Creek, by the Vulcan revenue steam-vessel, Lieut.-Commander Baker, where she is to be stationed as a watch-vessel for the Customs. SMUGGLING AT DEVONPORT.—The barque Edward, belonging to Mr. Thomas Restarick, merchant, of this town, arrived at this port, on Sunday, from Quebec, with a cargo of timber. On the Custom-house officers examining her, they discovered nearly 700 cwt. of tobacco in the forehold. The ship was immediately put under surveillance of the authorities, and the crew were taken into custody. PonTsmorrn.---Free-mart fair is now in full force, and is said to be more fully attended than for many years past. The paying off the Queen and Childers has made a fine harvest for the fair people. LOSS OF THE MATILDA AND THE ADDINGHAM. , "Foreign-office, July 17, 1844. " SIR - -I am directed by the Earl of Aberdeen to transmit to you,; for the information of the Chairman and Committee at Lloyd's, copies of two dispatches from her Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires and Consul-ORlieral in Chili, reporting the wreck of the British ships *Aka and Addingham.—l am, Sir, " Your most obedient humble seiwant, (Signed) " atEsTNING. " To William Dobson, Esq., &c. &c., Lloyd's." " Santiago, Jim. 3, 1844. " MY LORD,—lnclosed is the copy of the declaration of the Master of the British merchant brig Meats. having relation to the wreck of that vessel in tke Archi pelago of Guaticas in the month of October loot. 'the said declaration, taken before the Intendent of the Pro vince of Chili, has been conveyed to me by the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs.—l have, &c. (Signed) " JOHN WALPOLE. " The Earl of Aberdeen, K.T., &c. &e." The declaration of Captain George Dawson, of the brig Matilda, above referred to is to the effect, that on the 4th of last October he sailed from Valparaiso, bound far Buenos Ayres and Monte Video, with a cargo of wheat and Brazil wood ; that 16 days after, in lat. 42 5 S„ lon. 77 40 44 W., she was struck by a heavy sea, wiri`zek carried away the galley, all the water casks on deck, the boat, and one side of her upper works, from which ac cident the vessel began to leak ; that the *rape beeama choaked with the wheat that was stowed in bulk ; ns that the crew, under the circumstances, infartned him, that unless he at once made for the nearest coast, they would take possession of the vessel, and woe their lives at all risks. That after this intimation he continued his course for half an hour, but seeing that tile water was increasing, and that his officers were of de same opinion as the sailors, he steered for the nearest land, and immediately began throwing cargo overboami; that when the vessel was lightened by this expediestt they discovered that the head of a plank had been started. In forty-four hours after bearing up they an chored in the Guaiticas ; that the vessel remained abellt eight days waterlogged, when she foundered altogether, on account of the heavy gales which they expetenoed. They afterwards came to this port in a boat belonging to the captain, bringing with them of what belonged to the vessel, her long-boat and three sails, one of which/ the sailors cut up for clothes, and they sold the ethex two, together with the long-boat, to support themselves, and to pay the freight of a vessel which brouglt them from Guaiticas to this city. " Santiago, Jan. 17, 1844. " Sir, —I have received from her Majiesty's Consul at Valparaiso, the copy of a note addressed to him fry the French Acting Consul at that port, of which I have tke honour to enclose a copy. " This document covers the report of the master,of French whaling vessel, Le Fleuris, du Havre, wrecked during the month of November last, in the Straits qt' Magellan, in which is mentioned she discovery of the hull of a British vessel, the L'Adelinghani (probably the Addingham), T. E. Robson, master, which cleared out from Newcastle on the 28th of June, laden with coals, for the Pacific Steam Navigation Company, and empty bottles, and had not since been heard of, which bore every appearance of having been the victim of the igni tion of the cargo. This vessel was lying in a small bay shin these Straits, without the vestige of a human being en board. The crew supposed to have saved themselves on sortie part of the neighbouring land.—l have, Sac. (Signed) " JOUN WAI4PdLE. " John Bidlewell, Esq." )f M r ioner -1.11 his I been to th e re the ; rao' OW t 05 Wit' th o of t he Ls the' eC 12 01 er°