The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-24 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATTJRDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 24, --~.. intended Noble Lord on the occasion to which I alluded, that you - - • - trilled to , o witted, in the exercise of that privilege of defence, to . give vent , e nder P pose some measure of conciliation-and, first, I to those feelings. Yet I must not permit those feelings to . be stand that sou intend to propose an enlargement of the mixed . up in the . c onsideration of the important matters of policy 1 Inrate-Now, Ido not know whether you mean an enlarge- affecting the interests of Ireland.-( . Hear, hear.) Upon all ent of the grant to Maynooth, or of the grant for the pure that part . whieh relates to public policy-- to the question of Posse' f general education. e it s l ; . ll ,?, N eel!leeleiert.-For general education. future legislation-I trust I shall address myself with that • tetneer, and moderation, and forbearance, which are becoming 1 grant cONle, LLL-You then propose to increase the es i general education. lam glad to find that it is so- a subject of such immense magnitude. I hope, also, that in i d f •re • If from the charges brought against myself and Per cannot educate the people too much -( Cheers) You a nte educate them . too much for your own purposes. You feeelrie,e3ld:cate them so as to make them turn against rut selves, matters of a personal nature, affecting the position of thegen tlensen who have been made the subject of criminal proceedings, re,Y ee great security is in the ignorance of the people.- require. If I transgress the rule 1 have laid . down for myself, settonsi rs and laughter.) You intend to increase the educe grant-I am it will be totally contrary to my intention. I wish to (Hglad to he ar th a t sui.h is your intention. conduct the defence of tee Government, with a per- Con of the Hon. Gentleman e r , a and cheers.) I will frankly tell you what -is oa r, e. feet recollection of the I ate dent to du to gain the people of Ireland. Well, who spoke last. Sir, I cannot Posli be diverted from the question e atke eext told that you intend to introduce for us the raised by the Noble Lord by the speech of the Hon. Gentle eeeeeesie Charity Act-that you mean to extend to Ireland Mr. jeeee Bill for regulating English Catholic charities. passionsman. I wish . the Hon. Gentleman, instead of agitating the of his countrymen on the subject of repeal, would give 4 , 3 ox: cannot do a greater mischief to the Catholics of Ire- us an opportunity of meeting him in argument, for I should not tee e _t n t nto introduce such a measure for them. Ido not have b any . doubts as to what might be the result. I beg you el • e l a c q t lre o the Bill. I ought not to do so, for I introduced the mind what are the arguments on which he has this myself. I endeavoured for two separate sessions, to night rested his appeal for a repeal of the union. What per taattrerkteidte but the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Oxford, everyversion of history is necessary in order to vindicate . the demand titt eeded evening that it was upon the paper-he for repeal? says the lion. Gentleman, " For eighteen years o ut. Tra ni , ost determinedly, and at last he actually tired me ,up to the eriod of the union, Ireland had the happiness of an to R , ,t ri e ing no ray t h at I cou ld appoint for it I was obliged i independent Parliament." An independent Parliament l end t e e ' t nP. I complained to the then Administration, 1 what! the Parliament that sat from 1782 to Ixoo an inde_ and ~ Y appointed Mr. Lamb to bring in the measure, ' pendent Parliament, providingitor the social happiness of esefre "- wa s carried. Now that Act was a very I those on whose interests it was to legislate !-( Hear, Pli elble t'lit for England, but it is totally ) Why one of the complaints of the Hon. Gentleman tee enacted reland. The statute of superstitious uses in w aP aTs I himself to the legislative union was, that it was through cor es.'' acted in Ireland. The statute of Edward the Sixth • ruption the Act of Union had been effected-( Hear, hear)- • Pused and liberties of the people had been sacrificed to live e Only for this country, and it was merely a retrospec- ' that the rights *as a l e s t ; but Lord Eldon determined that although the Act the corruption of the Parliament.-( Hear, hear.) And was Act, ret rospective Act, he would construe it as a declaratory the condition of the people really happy under that Parlia illeeird hence the Catholic charities in England were declared i meet? What said Mr. h G a r' s a k tt e a d n , of it ? Long before 1782, if rilee e ; • but in Ireland that Act never passed. All cha- I remember right, e . What has your independent tract iris of law by a l l co r ns for Catholic purposes have always been recognised Legislature effected for Bill been Has a Place Bill been passed? 'eh in Itelane. Twenty-five years ago I held i Has a Pension Bill passed ? Nu, said Mr. !cla sses e r surn of 20/. a nnua ll y f or ever f or th e ce l e b ra ti on o f Grattan, we have got a Bill against Peers. We have lev at oc,‘ l ° . the dead. I show you then that there is not the got a Riot Act, see have got pensions without end, and we have ltlert rnai a n sion for this Act in Ireland. The old Statute of i got a profligate ' traffic in the sale of the peerage. That was ar e, el _ _ never applied to the Catholic clergy of Ireland. Jr. Grattan's account of the virtue of that independent Par %eau:rehire, under the common law, and according to We the l' t and he said, what has been the effect of that ?It has ill ege r lavv trusts for charitable and religious purposes are not It "cl, be The reduced iamen Ireland to . the condition of a province. Is it true, %se was necessary for the Catholic clergy of Eng- then, that the condition of the people of Ireland was then really ° bet t it is totally inapplicable to Ireland. But I well tell you happy, or are all the statements at present of the physical con- D Dublin, and of other cities, from the year ti eue !,9e should do. You should make each Catholic Bishop dition of the city keet t e t "rPoration, so as to enable him to take land-you may nution of the 1795 to 18 d 00 m f l e r r e n e l f a fa n l d la u cie L s:o o r k d a e t lu th si e on ac . toa L l o d o i k m a i t the account tse, euiedq_uantity, if you please, but you should enable him to of the o t f r t a he e s o hi ppine in • terest of Ireland for the ten years that ten of h e , w _leich might go to his successor without the interven ;bet see ees-at-law or executors ; by so doing you pass an Act Pads e eded the union.. I will challenge the Hon. Gentleman to fi at tha t to be really useful for charitable purposes in Ireland ; prove the fact that Ireland was advancing in . prosperity. *hie s fill which you propose will not do so. The next thing fhe policy pursued in Ireland during the period intervening th e f nderstand you intend to propose is an extension of between the years 1793 ane 1800, was the cause of the Rebel es ti e r r e ' ne bise, and, as I read it in the newspapers, lion of d and all its terrible consequences.-( Cheers. ) 1798, that if the statement of the lion. Gentleman be tsee s, tee , the abolition of the necessity for payment of all But I he say,roved that the happiness of the people was quite N ee eti lesp s t poor rates, borough-rates, and grand jury cess. e • rue'el of the social institutions of the country ; but he "be tarne! i the necessity for the payment of grand jury cess eolle et ed ? It is the most vexatious tax of any, and is th ed by independent cannst deny this. that if the Parliament promoted the officersprospe r who are now not appointed by, nor under r e eentr i pity of Ireland, that Parliament was returned by a small ma tte ate, of the Government- -( Cheeees. ) 'these officers j i re of Protestants. That Parliament was composed of, elected eii entirely by Protestants, and during its existence, there ers et eec u inied by the grand jury, and are favourites of certain was an Established Church in existence in Ireland. If the .. eel fle ct r e teeen. They are responsible only to the . grand jury Hon. Gentleman said that the social state of Ireland during s eise, T esSing body ; one set are appointed in April, another in this period was almost perfect, he should recollect that . the wie . p aytn eee are changed four times a year. If you insist upon Roman Cathceic was subject to great disabilities, white in ent of the grand jury cess, you will be creating that that the Parliament was exclusively Protestant, and 'eel y ee s 7. be made a great vexation to a political opponent, bet s e e will not compel the payment of the grand jury cess, the Church in its full power.-(Cheers.) I leave to the to choose either of those points-namely, that esse sea , e. ecer prevent its payment by not making its payment , 1 ' 114 4 .1 te the acqu . •To of the franchise. You must also i H t e w n a • s Gentleman consistent with the interests of Ireland to uphold in its th ee se i Zatioes for - in ' s l is l tin n g on the residence of freemen- most exclusive, and as be would call most intolerant form, the lee s th e reside, for three months before and three months Established Church, and that still the disabilities of the Ca -1 sli the e registry, in the borough. If y o u i ns i s t tho les should be in full force; or that the Government had '-ery residence of freemen, you will have made a been carried on with that Parliament existing between 1782 ef h t, e . beelefelLerebda.ngeicrowThle speakcounty franchise, too, I am told, and 1800, through the instrumentality of corruption- Ole L e" in no disparagement of the (Cheers) -that the social this gab . °r - When Ithat I have no confidence in him on not a happy one, and that yeet His say .that Parliament did not condition of Ireland was and welfare b a the • measure would bring about the extinction promote, h nor l was_ calculated sa, to promote, the peace I Ido think that the Hon. Gentleman efi e i a e i n nete franchise in Ireland. You should give us the of t ld e b peo t p eeteee s only franchise. The solvent test franchise would wou et er e have consulted the interests of his country, and /4 ilitg l i t e te the county constituency of Ireland. If you adopt th . at course which would be most conductive to his own g ive es Bill for regulating the county franchise, you should fame, if he would give us an opportunity of hearing and ex tent3.f acquirieg .. tt • eTer Y facile • - • 't ( Hear ) There is not amining those statements, and counteracting these arguments, tech Ireland who could obtain the franchise under the 80 1- instead of inflaming the passions of the ignorant by those Mese V in g ye trit t est. Ireland is a poor country, and if you do any- statements which he ventures to make in the face of a British .e te ets eb - e n ui l d hould do it generously,. and do it at once.--- (Cheers.) public.-( Cheers.) I shall now address myself to another ea7 i tt ese in ive us a franchise equally potential with the portion of the debate. I shall address myself to the motion of e ee es e England, so as to have a constituency of the Irish the . Noble Lord the Member for London, and . I do ea • that I jeVish .. 1411 in proportion to the population of that of the think h . e will admit that it is a motion exclusively ars - eistrictly of a party motion -( Tremendous cheers i e ireleeenties. Recollect, too, that a mats having W. a year deserving the .. name e l ' tnei id ' s as independent as a man with 101. or 15/. a year from the Miteisteria e l b . enchee)-it is perfectly a motion in ems ele.4tis•rea4s s ,,' e , If Totl. legislate for us justly, I shall hail tour fortuity with ancient precedent, and is a constitu lie fr eeett eri satisfaction ; but we must have no restriction of tional mode of testing the confidence in the l Ministry. Toe se.- (Cheers.) We will meet you cordially But that it .is a party motion, am sure etlse e *ill W- Ic e Pert Meet us cordially .-( Load cheers.) An- the . Noble Lord will himself admit. It is not a motion to In tel* Your 0- " your plan r e lates to fixity of tenure. tended into the state of Ireland. The Noble Lord may hav ld e i not sti ti ds of ,serrilasission is-doing great mischief b unfixing the .to pursue this course, but I must say, that he shoe . e ll e• r the s e ,47,,atctual occupants. A 9 idea has gone abroad that have mixed up any party consideration with the consideration of to, t 'tered "are been ejected during the last six years are to ' --. eli te 4 -• It the social state of Ireland. I should say, I . will challenge your such r ea t mi s fortune that this idea should have conduct -I will put ou on Theprial-I will separate you from ,e ° !rep e e t a e e ; but is the case, and the minds of the actual the social s t tate m o I Y e ' land. Noble Lord did not take that he moved for a Committee of the whole House on ..; l e e p e eit,,tsusire unsettled in consequence. Now you _must _act c t u e ur s s t e a , te b u of Ireland, v e il afraid of the possibility of the suc d I es ei leeleu must act rapidly, in whatever you intend to h of his motion, and as if he shrank from being compelled e ss tete" e Propose that you should take th . e law of landlord c le, r e s et ,„ a ss it was at the time of the union, by repealing in es t s hat Committee to elain in detail his own views as to - Nerd "se en the subject which has been passed since. The the course which . should be pursued in Ireland. At the Z t bey :„ Panso t compla j in e , because you will give them the law moment he gave his notice he said I mean to move a resolution I 4 ho e 1 1 1 45 it for themselves, but year after year since then condemnatory of the course pursued by her Majesty' s Minis . i llic llore 0 ee ... 4 rn , aking the law more stringent ea favour of the tees. I will make it . impossible on account of its charaeter to I, ll° ' I :e e° so enable him to seize even the last growing po- adhere to that motion.- - (Cheers Noble from the Tory benches.) 1-e oar f. . , you rest() .r t , e„, th landlords re the law to the state in which it was before With respect to the speech of the Lord the Member fo . r . ° lees • e cannot have any right to complain. Sunderland, I feel bound to state m conviction that I think it 4'44 lops e in ef f n avour of landlords were generally enacted in Ire- is wholly free from party bias, and that lie expressed his opinions r e of 4 ,, re they were enacted in this country. The sta- -much as I may differ from those opinions-in such a mantle es _ t illise e t s ' r 'ey, for instance. which was not Passed by the that I never was more convinc . ed of their mustsincerity and mantis , eesed •13 ereament until the reign of George 11., was ness.-(Cheers.) But, certainly, I . say, that the Noble .v.tritlese‘ea. rn e tt Y nif t e b s e t Irish Parliament in the reign of Lord the Member for London, in his speech, seemed " i 'h to - ".e. But . you have much . more to do if you to me to be engaged in the solution of some great 'e • s Je w . a disposition to act fairly by Ireland. You problem in political flexions .-( Cheers and laughter.) eto e re into r eel •,---(0, the financial arrangements made at the He seemed to me to be trying to obtain the maxim to une m o s f e _c_ . l 8&47 t4 a - eel's.) You perhapswill not take the trouble to mination with the minimum of inconvenience . li himself.— ' _ tliestltie,tiliiotlonto this subject -At' e °consents which have ee issued by the Re eel AS . ' (Loud cheers.) I think I could extract from the spirit of the subject ; but if you will get those eel are Noble Lord's motion the idea, " only remove the present Go- I t riset e Y will those documents, and to report en them to vernment and place me in their stead"-(Loud laughter)-and tee° ta tm tell you that there never was a greater injustice if that wer e . his meanie because the Noble Lord certainly r e a . ,than by the financial arrangements at the time of the brought an impeachment and accusation against us-why would eyetiebil.teeetieheve suffered great injustice by all financial . ar- not he explain his views and policy with regard to Ireland, for at D ee eof Jr, being made here ; and you will nut satisfy the present he must say that he has said nothing which viesuld compel f- Y gla,, ' e ' and until you do them financial justice. I will him, if in office, to adopt any course different from that pursued 1 14 in Ore. exult corporation reform . Your corporation ro- by the present Government ?-( Hear, hear, and laughter.) vtenei inn i,.. and n.ot whites .. You dissatisfied one party Did not the Noble Lord say if he could realise his plan he k y it i, ln 'sower f rom I t, you dissatisfied the other by would: divide the revenues of ihe Church, and give a portion e te e . git the shadow of power. Give us corporation re- to the Catholics and Presbyterians? But as the . object was most 'ore-T:111M that which you gave to England ; we demand no remote, and as no chance of its realisation existed, in f . ltor il .the Ale you afraid of the effects of the transfer of power case of his re-instalment to power, he was bound . e ih,__ dominant minority? That is past and gone-and even himself by no tangible engagement in respect to the 'stl l ee boroughs in which the majority of the population is Church , .or indeed of anything else.-( Hear, and cheers.) et °'ic, theproportion of Protestants in the Town Council is I rejoice to see that the Noble Lord has net . committed him ,. ti t , . i'ster than they are entitled to in proportion to the popula- self to any measure which will tend, in the slightest degree, to tit o. , , All offices are equally open to all, and are bestowed injure the Established Church.-( Cheers and laughter.) ' Ste:le Upon all. Then with regard to absenteeism. Ab- With respect to the accusation thrown out against her Majesty's Ilk t ei ,Ml is the curse of Ireland. It ought to be punished ' Government, I think . the the Lord ed might have shown less a l m o You ought extentto impose done an n i t 14:y44415;0s condition in which his own ab ab sentee tax. You have ecrimo s n t s o e o f d or an co d n t s h id e er b in ri g t t le t e m e a a t P e n rials of which it was composed keel ° heavy tax upon b y sen y te n e ur lainnedolinoreitain• house remembering the Coercion Bill, andehe Appropriation Clause, , of r bd it so as to drive him back to attend to the interests Ido think the Noble Lord ought to have abstained from throw , ere 4 wretched serfs.-(" Hear hear," from Mr. Stafford ing stones at his political opponents.-( Loud laughter.) But - • • , test en •) lam cheered by an Irish ladlord, and one • of the the subject is too important to justify trifling. Mr ef IfThe Noble retr ia .• ish landlords. I will give you full and explicit in- Lord had made me, as the head of the Government, r_e ets 'ion for all e. ,, e th e e ,_ useful purpose , . But you must not peddle sponeible . for everything. Amongst the many charges he 1 it tut, Tongs of Ireland. You must not quack with them. made against nse, was that I selecte . d the present Lord Chan -776e vote s " e l " us a radical cure. Recollect that Harwich with cellor merely on account of his hostility to Ireland.-( Hear.) , t se . o oo h es " two Members, and the county of Cork with The Noble Lord did not deny his talents, Lordo r of i h n is th e i ffi s c m ie a n tt e e y r . , genes es. Only two. The profligate corruption of the bo- in the discharge of his duties. The Noble ke, s tn reitt4 "nutted at the beginning of the session, and the undertaking to answer not alone for the acts, but a . lso for the e' ''') 1 of the Hon. Member for Bath proved it.- ( Hear, motives of others, said that I selected him for this reason tsel!tatch: i " ve come to the Church. You have in Ireland a (Cheers) T l do say this was an accusation that should not be te ri 'lecte 7 .: e• Perfect hierarchy, unconnected with the State, but brought without the strongest an most con . firmat d : ory eVI• ~Plivo 4". iatimately with the peo le I do not ask you to deuce to establish it. As I had been already in three a mi- Igitle interfereri) aof his vested inte P res • ts No man in Ireland nistrations with that Noble and Learned Lord, in the year 1829, t , nn with i ‘ ; i t 6 ._ the interests of . any Church incum- and in the short government of 1634.-( Hear, hear.) In the Nq .,.'.f i r ,ing ; but you must, as statesmen, look to . the year _lB4l, I was called on to form an Administration ; and does Idq't ' l nd, and see that without giving religious the Noble Lord think that it would be just th_at. I should heve that iOII cannot do e i Yoe yo Us political justice. I have been said to Lord Lyndhurst-" It is true that I have . e ntwice ro ' , Rye Pose to give a salary to the Catholic bishops conneeted . with . . you in office-it is true that at the time when ‘VII4 ter come he, dare not accept it. The would lose caste. Catholic disabilities were removed, I asked for your assistance Lords, and that I C seh t t ,l pe d ( May enough in your treasury . to pay them. in mitigating the prejudices of the House of N.,. e bee give would excite but not satisfy them, and the received . your powerful support-but as you have used a hasty et i -Petable re !C pp would rather have seats anywhere that was expression, at which offence has been taken, I must ex- I re ee fi t tha ri i ts b e th were Parliament. Du you mean to say elude you from office, in order to court popularity in Ireland." would not for the Protestant Establish- -(Cheers.) But Lord Lyndhurst say to me,-" I deny „ 4 1 % N i l m e rotestant religion would notln a fortnight stand ? that I used any such expressions .-( Cheers .) t t 11 1 p a i d het your reli ion would fail if there were not after I used the words which were so aidemisrpresented or misun i oli e ,et re e structing others? -- .itat e ) th'l4.4 I°l. in ' g (eh '4 h b 'our derstood, I was taunted by those who . th . they heard me w ith alcorporations to * rile; Th e geen, what a triumph to me as a Roman Ca- stating as a reason for not granting municipal reete Whi c h Roman Catholic Church ossessed all the Ireland, that the people were aliens by descent-that they die tse'eatite_PortioeYeee Church now has-or e , at least, the fered from us in language-that they considered us aliens their te e es sine el It. There have, I belive, been certain from their soil, and desired to remove us from . 1 tote Veit i se e „_ the Reformation • but the great man country. My answer was, I did not . say so, nor anything re `eta of - "" t of them - 9991. ' t of every 1,000/. were sembling it.-(Cheers.) Nu expression fell from me which any fete' Y 40 man - ou , . th ou, h u Catholics . You took them from person, not of weak intellect or disposed to misrepresent my . 1 4 en It else ` it 'd them into the wilds and fastnesses. It is a words, could have so distorted._(Cheers. ) . When the Marquis le ek t , lse h ea rt the sameprice upon the head of a wolf, and of Lansdowne , either through kindness or in compliment asked . - 1 •4 let'e lli d Is - R. o l a Priest. You did all you could against me for an explanation, I stated to the House . of like Lords , that I , e t 11 --t f Zone Roman Catholic religion failed in Ireland had rustling to explain, fur I had said nothing l what was •ItY4 r ' -ne e ? No. It never was more triumphant. imputed to -(Cheers.) Now, Sir, no one cou d h regre L tl et _ ereh de _ erell e i shes , ups twenty-three bishops, fifty deans, more than rnysglf-(unless it be. Lord Lyndhurst)-t at . my r tit 's: t nret 4ccine, and some 2,00 u parish priests, with two or Noble and Learned Friend had used the hasty expressions I , r e s , re ee i 11 % 4414 es t° each - an etire;unbrok - en hierarchy, in as which he did use.-(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, was I, six years eeele ' 11l ee•er order, and as perfect as the day before afterwards to say t o hi m , e I cannot advise the Crow . n to ed 'Wee . /4 3,,, N . "eltded the throne You ha e n dsspoiled them, vance you to office, on account of those hasty expressions ? - i e t i tet tri ky c':',2t .he same faith in your Protestantism as I (Hear, heai.) Sir, when I consider that Lord Lyndhurst the i l 'il lcgt bee " °llni sra ? Are you sincere in your faith? and raised himself from the position in which he was born, and ' the scriptural truth, este e that and the support manner in which the office of Lord Chancellor has been filled tt,ies te •eetion, tal c ttitt?reqilte. Haspc euteh erd literature give, are su . . . fficient for the last eight or ten years-an office which has been occu r 1 Wh ur'h :t not the blessing of God if it be pied by sucli men as Lord Eldon Lord Brougham, Lord Cot illl t y tile' end what greater bulwark can it have than tenhasn, Lord Plunket, . . and Sir Edward Sugdeo-when I con e dpersons, and the compa e country to be Lei et .- t tc' ee° o ls ll° ,e ee l resp a n es i l t h d . •cl 1 ( Hear,) Oh, eider the origin of those oistinguis .e _ i le teoe Pon it • withonger on this subject. But I implore you rative obscurity from . which they raised themselves to the t stre the e • ofstatesmen.Don't let us see hihest civil e le w siete e s eno _ a , ees 41itrtit t, or Irel situation next the Throne, I think this is the i e ", vibil e iu iy, that the Church of the wealthy has all proudest homage to the democratic principle of the British e se t of Gee the Church of the poor has nothing but the Constitution.-(Cheers.) It is the strongest practical contra , _ _eering.) Igo back. at twill u ic '4t he 13 '' - (Ch Wh d ce tion of the phrase quoted by an eminent member of the a ? lam afraid, whatever 't be, . Roman Catholic party t° h a e ilit e ' th i e 4ct ' l . 1 wish • Years i h have l o k, e t e ,, e iseee _ o it were. enoug e ay-• " Quorum virtutibus obstat P 1 , 'it it ;‘,tlath ted ,!! n commenced between the two countries Res auguoa domi." icountr • there is no obstacle to the ele- C t i !. ea the r e ligiousand rancour. It is trine there vation eh of men of talent and wisdom, by the buoyancy o their thr e ers b ough t t. The time is come when own_ aracter.-Cheers.) It is true that I have had diffi , kishtltnehettoitt°ttills:rsi to embrace each other as men culties to contend with, . which the Noble Lord had not, in Iclaims of candidates for that high office. The ' and when charity should be spread looking to the _ , • ,f 11 1 : 4 0 1 end E n an ,.--when the odious distinction between Noble Lord had exhibited an laughter.) of great boldness and % it tels:itbolie enshmee--the odious distinction between courage.-(Tory cheers , and It was an example if •eti -orie said P rotestant-distinctions odious in all of virtue, not of meanness.-(Tory cheers.)The sie oe s 1, e Noble Lord 4had ever "e(te'eshalf ac ePe in thofpurity and mutual had the good fortune to be connected with a man who e• Cr -h shade rivalry . se e ~ ornament of it e etr e e abol, and justice shall be done to been the faithful friend of the Whig party-the .. ketlst " l eeti ' et tot • -tine Blake the Irish bar-the friend of Grattan-Lord Plunket-- man tie e 'stc. st i ederaei and Sir R. Peel rose at the same time, whose name would go down . to posterity as one of the e ei k- in e ° Presse d • f" 0 d " from the greatest stars that ever shone in the sphere o r k , t d o ._ Ilebell. sir 4.. a11_ cries . is eminence. fI• h • t ti mir rt. pi l l* v Blake, after some little hesitae -But, i , r S'r Le d Plunket was the sen of an Irish Presbyterian el 4 e e EL p rise minister, and he rose to the office of Lord Ch II ance on e had ~, ap pall ceded toaddress the House. He said-Sir,l ( , Hear, hear .) He was advanced to that eminence by the O (f:ti great e ' d by the duty • Noble Lord. But the Noble Lord challenges us with over , e --er, -It toile , which I have to discharge, if I looking the claims of eminent Irishmen to office. Why, Sir, a * t i . "NO, ) The House, lam sure, will consider that in I adorned the Irish bar ; and yet six weeks before the Noble i 4 ky ,2'13 f or 4 ,.. t close of the ninth night this debate, lam ' Lord. retired from the Government--( Cheers and counter of If t li see, eie p ir , ‘... _ _ cheers.) The Noble Lord is sensitive of Irish feelings.- a tk ivey....._'nat e a _ Pu n 5 e of gratifying any personal wish of (Tory cheers and laughter.) He is jealous of offences offered I, get „, .(H ear e el of rising for the purpose of any idle to Ireland.-( A laugh) He is jealous of promoting English o sep et re elle. e et 4 ne ar. ) I am risinz in the performance of °lte. * hice • 3 ' t° wards th e H . Govern- 13:1 n instead of Irish to office in Ireland. But he had • e ffi e the man who was the pride and boast of the Whig t. , Ol / stiin I . lllp o , es n _ onse, ana towards the in o c if te ll. ' the •d, th e e e,. P °ll , me, considering the situation in party in Ireland ; and to that Irishman-to Lord Plunket, the A 4 ._ !, ti..., obligation of addressing the House. Noble Lord signified that it was expedient for him to retire ; e theW. a bilit;'" d ebate c and for what purpose ?-in order to gratify the vanity of a a 1,, is „ 0 , ever y ee ' u onducted on each side with extraor- Scotchman.-(Cheers and laughter. ) Ido not deny that he O t ag oth er _, t pp eetutte g meet has been exhausted, and that a 44 t ti ern ati , "Y of adding anything was an eminent man. Ido not deny that he was a ells in tp o novel. Wet I have . guished lawyer, of whom I wish . to speak with all respect. Is instancee to which le e efebi 'ale, th a e ' if lain to discharge the duty which apper- f Still I must say that the Noble Lord, in the . f l. te it eht e f erns 4 t° Preeent • ee 1 T Li kv,i„ heror th e y „ en . in a connect., c,ear, and e , p refer su erse e o. d d L -d Plunket to gratify the vanity o a ) t e , te e e e , P ions and views on the several matters Scotchman-( Laughter and cheers)- wet, t hey 0 , siouse. I cannot d for six weeks-for only S' if I were so ) :lee_ie re "It field % s le d , h o that effectually without six weeks' t nun; of office.-( Cheers. ) Sir, 9 h„,we, 1,, `, a PPeal to the as been already exhausted. I placed that _only l e had the alternative to make such a choice, I if 6 4 , -- .) k ord er th patience and indulence of the would not retain office one hour.-( Renewed cheers.) . Then 4 ' t ri Lr ' I have at I may Perform this duty.-( Hear, the Noble Lord quitted Lord Lyndhurst. What was his next 1 eu teh ei e ee re4e 4T:dher yet greaterdut to perform. .I topic ? Why, the Noble Lord who stood forward as the t re e . se Ili oar ' ll the that privilege which y bel h ' t tire of a great party, and came to the rescue o h ongs to t e presentative a J t% defenceart of the G . ii Aosee bese Influenced overnment, I stand here , country, occ . p . u ied his time in raking into the kennels for the (Ch ) andquoted the speeches - set t o e sealc a by those feelings refuse of election dinners- eers - , . nun iee consciousness of having been made at an election dinner in Canterbury-(Cheers)--en order "'"4 unrPerited • imputation, I may be per- 1 to charge me with participating in and adopting the sentiments I I r'.;' Ili ' here expressed.—( Hear.) This would be a hard rule for public men.—(Hear, hear.) It is hard to make me respon sible for the expressions, either used by Mr. Bradshaw at Canterbury, or attributed to him.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Noble Lord is followed by a powerful party, confederated with him in promoting political objects—who will vote to night, naturally and justifiably, for the purpose of dis placing us, and replacing us with him. But I would think it unjust to make him responsible for everything uttered by every one of those who support him.—(Hear.) It would be very unjust to charge the Noble Lord with the responsibility of everything that may be said at Anti-Corn-law meetings. It would be unjust to charge him with participating in the senti ments of those who denounced the landlords as being cold blooded and selfish, and insensible to the sufferings of the people. --( Hear, hear.) Why, then, should he make me responsible for the after-dinner speeches et Canterbury ? But, Sir, suppose I have always disclaimed the statements attributed to my Hon. Friend, why should I be held responsible for the very language which I have disclaimed? —( Hear, hear.) Is not this the fact, that when Mr. Wyse was appointed to an important office under the Government, I declared that I saw no objection to the appointment, as the Honourable Gentleman was in every respect quali fied by character and ability, and his being a Roman Catholic should not be an obstacle to his promotion. I consoler this a most important matter, said the Noble Lord, speaking of the manner in which the Government behaved' to Roman Catholics. Can you expect them to consent to receive favours from a Government whose supporters calumniated their priesthood? What the Noble Lord really wished to effect is to make it impossible for Roman Catholics to accept favours from the present Government, and then to turn round and say, See what a gross injustice you have done to Roman Catholics, you have made twenty appointments, and yet not one of them has been filled by a Roman Catholic. You first strive to create an impedi ment by reviving unjust prejudices, and then you found an unjust accusation against the Government for not making those appointments which you have deterred the Roman Catholics from accepting. I stated publicly what my opinions were on the subjectof the position of the Roman Catholics, but I had been taunted by Hon. Gentlemen who say, 0, these are fine declarations that you make in debate, but you do not practice them. Allow me to say, Sir, that that is a matter of great difficulty.--(Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) I recognise those principles which place the Roman Catholics on an equality with their Protestant fellow-subjects. I say there should be no practical disability. I speak in respect of every office; and I care not what prejudice these declarations may create against me. I say now, whilst in the possession of power, as I did when I was not, that in every office to which Catholics are eligible there should be no impediment whatever to their appointment on the ground of religion. Since Parliament last met, there was only one office of a judicial nature vacant in Ireland ; it was an office in the Ecclesiastical Court ; and I apprehend that no one but a member of the Church of England ought to be appointed to that situation. The appointment was placed at my disposal by the Lord Primate. I stated to the Primate that I would accept the patronage, but that I should place in that situation the most eminent man at the bar, with out regard to anything except his professional qualifications. I believe, Sir, I acted according to my promise, in appointing one of the most eminent men at the Irish bar—Mr Keating. He vacated the office of sergeant, and another vacancy took place. How was that office filled? I wanted to destroy the prejudices which it has been attempted to create against the Government. I wanted to show to the Irish people that I did not participate in the opinions enunciated at election dinners, and that it was not in the heat of debate that I gave utterance to those sentiments regarding the Irish Roman Catholics.—(Hear, hear ) I will take the liberty of reading to the House a letter which I wrote to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland on the subject of this ap pointment. It was not written in anticipation of this debate, but in the course of the last year. It was dated the 2 9 d August, 1843. ( The Right Hon. Baronet then read extracts from his letter to Lord De Grey, in which he strongly recommended the appointment of such Roman Catholics as had not joined in the agitation, or made themselves obnoxious to the dispensers of patronage. The letter proceeded to say that Roman Catholics ought to be appointed to those situations which they were qualified to fill, and, although preferable claims might be urged by Protestants, on the ground of their attachment to the Protestant Church, still that the rights of Roman Catholics should not be merely nominal, but that they should be placed on an equality of civil rights. The letter further observed, that although for every office which would be va cant for the next ten years Protestants might be found highly eligible, still if Roman Catholics were not appointed, they were practically disqualified, and what motive was held out to them to refrain from joining in the present agitation if every office was closed against them. It might probably occur that fifty appointments would be made of Prot=stants who had preferable claims. But why had they preferable claims? Because they had for a long series of years been excluded from the privileges of their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, and were constantly cherished by the Go vernment.. The policy and the laws were changed, and they ought not to allow the effect of those former causes of preference to influence present appointments. The inferiority of Roman Catholics should not be shown by the ex clusive appointment of Protestants. Having read the extracts of which the above is the substance, the Right Hon. Baronet proceeded to say that Mr. Howley had been appointed to fill the vacant situation. ) There is not the slightest doubt that if we had not been anxious to appoint Roman Catholics, several professional men could be found in the four Courts professing the Protestant religion, and of equal legal ability.—(Hear, hear.) But did this appointment satisfy Hon. Gentlemen opposite? No, it did not ; far from it. Although Mr. Howley was a Roman Catholic, the Governmont was attacked in the severest manner for ap pointing him. That paper, which is the organ of Hon. Mem bers opposi' e, makes the following observations on the an nouncement of the appointment of Mr. Howley. An HON. MEMBER—What paper? Sir R. PEEL—The Morning Chronicle. The Right Hon. Baronet then read an extract from an article in the Morning Chronicle, which stated that though the Government had made many absurd appointments, they had not made one so grossly improper as that of Mr. Howley. The explanation of the reason of this appointment was not difficult—it was only necessary to suppose a little shallow cunning and a little blockheadism on the part of the Cabinet, and the appointment was explained.— ( A laugh.) This, to be sure, said the Right Hon. Baronet, was very encouraging to the Government to make Roman Ca tholic appointments. The Morning Chronicle proceeded to say that the appointment of Mr. Howley was an insult to the li beral bar of Ireland, and that it was quite clear that Sir Robert Peel's Government could not continue to govern that country. —( Renewed laughter.) However, Mr. Howley had the moral courage to retain his appointment to the sergeantcy, notwith standing the denunciations of the Noble Lord and the organ which represented his party. How had the appointment of that gentleman been received by the gentlemen of the county of Tipperary, in which Mr. Howley was assistant-barrister ? An address was presented to him, signed by 105 magistrates of that county, congratulating him on his appointment, and expressive of a deep sense of gratitude for the admirable manner in which he had discharged the duties of assistant-barrister, all coming forward to bear testimony to the integrity and ability with which that Roman Catholic gentleman had dis charged the duties of his office. There was also an address to him from the grand jury, and another which I believe was unanimously signed by every practising solicitor in the county of Tipperary. Now, I say, then is this fair warfare against the Government—is it fair towards the individual horn we selected ? Is it fair towards the character of an honourable man, as soon as we gave him the fair reward of his professional merit to turn round upon him and injure his character and depreciate his merit, in order that through him you might strike a blow at the Conservative party ?--(Cheers. ) Sir, I think, this is an answer to the attempt of the Noble Lord to involve me in the responsibility of expressions which might have been used by gentlemen with whom I am connected. Now, as to the disposition to encourage offensive or hostile expressions used towards the Roman Catholic body. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Shed) made an appear to me on that subject last night. The Right Hon. Gentleman referred to some addresses from the Protestant Operative Association in Dublin, and asked me whether I approved of the sentiments contained in those addresses, and whether I approved of the sentiments which were offensive to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. I will read the answer to those addresses. —(Mr. Sheil here made some observation across the table which we were unable to hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman dropped his voice when he spoke. The Right Hon. Gentle man said " warm encouragement was given," and then a burst of loud cheering prevented the rest of the passage being heard. Now it often happens that' owing to the business which public men have to discharge that they will pass over long ad dresses presented to them, and not read those addresses very accurately, and then they return a common official answer, very civil and courteous, but they never expect that those answers will be brought forward in the House of Commons, I am sure the House will allow me to de the Government just tice on this point. I have had memorials addressed to me to the same effect as that from the Protestant Operative Associa tion. I had one before the agitation began. I had one ad dressed to me in the year 1842. It was from the Protes tant Operative Association of the City of Cork. In th e memorial was this passage :—" We, the members of the Pro testant Operative Association of Cork, feel ourselves called upon, by a sense of duty to ourselves, our country, and our God, to address you on a subject of the first importance with respect to the best interests and welfare of the community." The subject was that of national education. "If the homilies be true, and those who sealed them with their heart's blood have raised up a testimony against error which can never be overthrown, then the priests of the Romish Church are Antichrist—then are they the special instruments of the devil."—(Loud laughter.) The climax improves as its pro ceeds, but I have read enough to show the nature of this address. Now I will read to the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Sheil) my answer to that address. This was in De cember, 1842. The answer I returned was to the following effect—" Sir. I received your letter accompanying the address to me from the Members of the Protestant Operative Association of Cork. lam sorry that they felt themselves called upon by their duty to God to express uncharitable sentiments in offen sive language."—(Cheers.) Now, I have shown the Right Hon. Gentleman what nay feelings were on the subject of offensive expressions with respect to the faith of the Roman Catholics. Mr. SHEIL—I did not think you held such sentiments. Sir ROBERT PEEL—And I wish to confirm you in that impression.—(Loud laughter.) I must in justice to the members of the Association, say that my letter was cer tainly received in a very becoming manner. It is but justice to them to read how they received my rebuke : "We fee great pleasure in acknowledging the receipt of your letter,"— ( Great laughter.) Really it is a most becoming answer to my letter. "We feel great pleasure in acknowledging your reply to the address of the Association on the subject of nationa education. We beg to offer our warmest thanks for the promp and gentlemanly manner—(Roars of laughter)—in which you answer our communication. It was what we expected—(Shouts of laughter.) The reply itself has not disappointed our ex pectations."—( Continued laughter.) There was another ad dress to her Majesty on the same subject. Mr SHEIL—That is from Dublin? Sir R. PEEL—This is from Dublin, but mine was fro Cork. My Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary for the Home Department was requested to lay the address before her Majesty, and I hold in my hand the answer lie returned. But I had better not read it to the House.—(Cries of " Yes, yes.") Well, then, my Right Hon. Friend said " I cannot commend a passage in the address which I find tends to insult a large class of her Majesty's subjects, or which, at any rate, is open to misconstruction; and I cannot think that such an address is fit to be laid before her Majesty." Now observe, this was in the year 1842, and I do think that nothing is more indicative than this of the spirit in which we were desirous of administer ing the Government of Ireland, and that we were content to relinquish support rather than gain it by fomenting prejudices. —(Cheers.) I come now to the conduct of her Majesty's Go vernment with respect to the recent trials. We took office in Sep tetnber, 1841, and up to March, 1843, there appeared no great dissatisfaction with the manner in which the Government was conducted. I have shown you that we were desirous of abat ing religious animosities ; and we did what we could to stop Ireland..want want t putY t oe t any attempt to i nsu lt t h e f a i t h o f R oman C a th o li cs . W e h ave been u i charged with a d es i re t o govern I re l an d by m ilit ar y f orcee k , g have admitted th a t t h e necess i ty ex i s t e d f or th a t f orce whom responsibili tyCainhe rests for th a t m ili tary f oree b e i ng i n I re l an d ? t t s h o e wi o r o q uo t t h r a y t — ou h r ef e o x re - pectations and hopes of p resen ti ng re d uce d est i mates were de feated er „,nhnaaontwdfail to rlw to know with whom the fairly want to it before the intelligent and reasoning cl asses o f the community, and to make an appeal in the House to all impartial men.—(Cheers. ) , 1843, s We took office in September, 1841, and in March, o far from having evinced any dispositio n t o govern by m ilit ar y e e i force, I wi. l l state vrtiat the real force in Ireland was at the two ineriods that I have mentioned. When we took office on the Ist of August, 1841, we found the force in Ireland to be 14,.822. On the Ist of September, the force was 16,257 rank and tile. In March 1843, there were only 13,500 Thus between the two periods that 1 have mentioned the force was reduced from 16,20 0 men to 13,500.—( Cheers.) That shows that there was no disposition on our parts to rule with a military force. In Mitrch lei 43, began that systematic agitation which was not the consequence of any act of the Governmexit—for wlaich we were charged with no injustice or any undue partiality. Noss my belief is, that there existed a strong and settled deter mination in certain guar mrs that we should not be successful. —( Cheers.) That dot. srmination was taken, and it was acted upon.—(Continued the ors.) About this time the poor-rate began to be levied. Th roughout many parts of Ireland there was great dissatisfaction %with the poor-law—an Act brought in and passed by the Noble Lord, the Member fur London, and supported, I admit, by use. But that Act was most unfortu nate in some of its provi, flow, for it subjected every occupier, almost without exception, to the payment of the poor-rate. There were thousands of isr stances in the west of Ireland wherein rates from three farthings. to three-halfpence in the pound were demanded. There was ;almost universal consternation and alarm. Act tc m ei e our duty y to apply a reme d y t o th e bl un d ers which I don't sa y an ythi ng a b ou t neg ligence. Lord J. RUSSELL— Those clauses were introduced in the House of Lords.—( Hear,. from the Opposition. ) Sir R. PEEL—I beg pardon then. Still, the alterations were adopted by the Government, and that unfortunate mis take I have alluded to did cause a multitude of annoyances, which created great discontent and vexation in many districts of Ireland. But I will say no more on these subjects. I con fess I was anxious to pay the Noble Lord back in his own coin. —(Laughter.) I have tried to do so--(Hear, hear)—he offered it to me in the first instance, and having returned him with great pleasure that which I sincerely believe him entitled to—(Laughter)—l will proceed to, ether matters. Well, as I have said that Act was a most unfortunate one, Concurrent with the dem and for the rates under it, agricul tural distress visited Irelar,d, and its effects were most severely felt. Concurrently too with these things the new tariff I had the honour to propose l began t o b e felt. Ido believe that the reduction of price causod by the tariff, follniving closely on the demand for the poor-rate, alienated the minds of the people from the Government—l do believe that these two countries„ the poor-rate being for the first time levied at a period of considerable agricul tural depression—did. give great facilities to the agitation. —( Cheers.) The country at that time was in a very peculiar state. In the West of Ireland you had great excitement, and, consequently, great congregations of people, whose embittered minds were all dexterously directed against the present Go vernment.—(Hear, hear.) They were all demanding the abo lition of poor-rates—l am sorry to say not a few also looked to a serious inroad upon rents.—( Hear, hear.) Then unhappily came the determination to agitate for the repeal of the union. —( Hear, hear.) We watched the progress of that agitation with the deepest regret, and, after proper deliber . ation, we determined in what mode to deal with it.—( Hear, hear. ) We are now charged with supineness, and with permitting these meetings to continue in order to entrap men of eminence into a violation of the law. I declare here in public that that accusation is utterly false and wilhout any shadow of a foundation.—(Great cheering.) We determined at once not to apply to Parliament for new powers.—( Loud cheers.) I confess, after the long experience I have now had of public life, that I am not at all favourable to any application to Parliament for any increase of the ordinary powers of the Government.—(Loud cheers.) I don't think there is anything which has a: greater tendency to impair the ordinary power of the law than to listen to applications founded, as they generally are, en local alarms, to get sonic extraordinary powers from the Legislature in aid of the Executive.—(Hear, hear.) So far from adding to the authority of the Government, in my opinion it tends to weaken it.—( General cheers.) The evil effect of these extraordinary powers is particularly marked in this—that no man relies on the ordinary law—nay, the people get out of the habit of look ing to protection for, or exerting the ordinary powers which, the law affords.—(Hear, hear.) Now the Government, our predecessors, did not take the same course.—(Cheers. ) Hon. Gentlemen opposite, amongst them several m em b ers an d many more supporters f the late Government, charge us with supineness in the first instance, and then with precipitate vigour in the second.—( Hear, hear.) Now, I tell you to re collect that you were not content to take our course—you were not content in your time to rely on the ordinary forms of the law—(Loui cheers)—you applied to Parliament__ Lord J. RUSSELL—And you supported us.—(Cheers.) Sir ROBERT PEEL—I did support you.—(lronical cheers.) did not try to aggravate the difficulties of your po- Aiart.—,(Cheers ) ,1 entered into no confederacy with those Who were destitute of any honourable or sincere sympathy with me.—(Great cheering.) But you applied to Parliament, and got from it a new Act, and a tolerably strong one it is. Do you forget it ? Here it is ; and it is intituled an Act for the more effectual suppressing of disturbances, and also of dangerous Societies in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) It is, I as sure you, a very stout Act of Parliament. It recites, that the laws are inadequate, and what do you think it enacts ? That the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, by proclamation, may supersede the ordinary tribunals of the country, and order the trial of delinquents to take place—not before a judge—not by a jury—but by a court to be formed of from seven to fifteen officers. That is your Act ! We relied on the efficacy of the existing law ; the Noble Lord did not. He took these precautions against these signal fires; he passed a Bill, by which it was enacted that "no person should make any fire, bonfire, light, flash, or blare—( Laughter) —or any signal by snioke—(Laughter)—or be present at the making of such signal." This was the Noble Lord's Act ; the Government thought it necessary, and therefore they passed it. lam only showing that the Government felt the extent of the evil to be so great that it asked extraordinary powers to put it down. Thus, lighting a fire, or making signals by fire, blaze, or smoke, was made an offence, punish able by martial law, and the persons committing it were to be tried by a court-martial, consisting of not more than nine officers, nor less than five.—( Cheers.) We asked no such powers ; we all concurred in trusting to the ordinary energies of the law, and in not adopting the system of the Whig Government. We had the support of the Protestants of Ire.. land, and that of the Roman Catholics, who were opposed to the agitation. We were determined not to avail ourselves of the offers made by them ; we determined not to avail ourselves of the yeomanry force that was ready to come forward in aid of the Government. They made a voluntary tender of their assistance ; but we knew the consequence of accepting that assistance.—( Hear, bear.) We knew that the consequence of accepting that assistance must be the raising of a spirit of re ligious animosity in the people; we knew that we could not have embodied the yeomanry force that was offered us ; that we could not call the Protestants of the north to the aid of the Government without running the risk of engendering re ligious animosities it would have required the lapse of years to allay.—( Hear, hear.) We were determined, except only in the last extremity, to waive any such assistance. But we not only lost the aid—we discouraged and dispirited many of those friends. Our only reliance was, then, on the ordinary vigour of the law. The charge against us is, that we were supine at first ; to that I give a peremptory denial.—( Cheers. ) I say we gave public proclamation of the view we took of the repeal agitation. As Ministers of the Crown we gave it ; at the end of the last session of Parliament we advised her Majesty to declare from the Throne her disapprobation.—(Hear, hear.) You say we issued no proclamation in the name of the Crown. What proclamation could speak in more emphatic language, in more emphatic terms, than the proclama tion made by her Majesty from the Throne ?—( Cheers.) Her Majesty said, I have observed with the deepest concern the efforts made to stir up discontent and disaffection among my subjects in Ireland, and to excite them to demand a Repeal of the Legislative Union." Her Majesty further said, "I am de termined to maintain inviolate the bond of connection between the two countries, and I hope my subjects will discourage this pernicious agitation, which disturbs the industry, retards the improvement of the country, and excites feelings of mutual animosity." That was the proclamation made by the Govern ment with respect to this agitation. We dismissed the magis trates who took part in the repeal agitation. Was that no sig nificant indication of the intentions of the Government? --(Cheers.) You complain that we dismissed them without a previous proclamation. I believe the Noble Lord opposite considered himself entitled to dismiss Mr. Frost from the magistracy for being a member of the National Convention I—( Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord had written to Mr. Frost, whom he had appointed a magistrate—(Cheers)---askin g him whether or not he was a member of that Convention. The Noble Lord, I believe, at first thought the answer satisfactory, and made no comments on it. He subsequently dismissed him, not for any . express act, but for taking part in meetings at which sedit ious and inflammatory language was us e d. I think he did not prosecute him, but he thought himself entitled to dismiss him without a proclamation.—(Cheers.) We did dismiss magistrates for taking part in an agitation for the separation of the two countries, and we think vs• were j ust ifi e d i n it. But we also gave these instructions to th e L or d - Li eutenan t : "The moment you are entitled by law to interfere with meetings that may endanger the public peace, that moment we authorise you, and desire that you will:put them d own ." I want to show th a t t h e charge against us, that we remai ne d dormant and w it h folded arms, looking on at these me e ti ngs , is utterly w ithout foun dation. It was our intention to interfere whenever the law should enable us to do so-- (gear' hear.) But if these meetings were not legal, and as they s till scon tinued to be held then, it is said that we should have called in the military power to disperse them ; but in w ha t a condition we would have been in if we had used force. But there were to periods when it is said we m ig ht have interfered a ccording • law. There was to have been a great meeting at Cashel, and the Lord-Lieutenant sent down a gentleman well qualified to confer with the magistrates. His instructions to them were, that if they apprehended any danger—such as a firm-minded and tensible man might apprehend then, and nut till then, were they to order the meeting to bo dispersed ; but the meeting was not to be interfered with, unless meta of firm and strong minds testi fied that they apprehended danger from the meetings of the people. At a Cabinet Council , he ld on the 15 th April , 1843, we issued instructions to the Irish Government that we thought they should consult the Lord Lieutenants of the different counties where those meetings were about or likely to be held, and if those meetings gave apprehension to the people, thereby creating reasonable grounds for alarm in the minds of firm and sensible persons, then might the Irish Government issue a proclamation calling upon all lawful subjects of her Majesty not to go to that meeting; but if persons persevered after this notice in coming to that meeting, then they must use coercion. Then there was another meeting respecting which we had every reason to think there would have been a collision, and when we heard that there was to be this great meeting at Skibereen to consider the question of repeal, we again advised the Irish Gover n men t d firm-minded that if tho se procee di ngs gave apprehension to reasonable an men, then, and not till then, must the authori ties interfere . Then there and anoth er were other meetings held at Dungarv on , at Clones. Why did we not interfere with these meetings? Simply because those apprehensions were not expressed, and would we have bees mad enough to provoke a collision ?—(Cheers.) Where was the necessity for calling out the military but when we had apprehensions of meetings being held where the public peace was likely to be perilled? Then we gave orders that a proclamation should he i ssued. The magistrates of Dungarvon addressed the Government, and expressed their apprehensions of danger to the public peace. The Government directed that and regularly sworn t o if a ffi davits were proper l y that effect, then the magistates might interfere, and order the meeting not to be held ; but no interference was called for, and, therefore, was not necessary. We had an objection to issue those pro• clamations where there was no necessity. We had no covert design to entrap men into the commission of conspiracy or sedition. We did hope that this state of things would cease. We wished to see matters return of themselves to repose and quiet. We wished this pernicious agitation to cease of itself, without the application of force. We thought it our duty to take every precaution that prudence with forbearance might dictate, although you now charge me with a desire to govern Ire land with military force, while we were doing all in our power to obviate and prevent such a grievous and lamentable necessity. The meeting was held on the anniversary of a certain day— the rebellion.— anniversary of the Ir ish (Hear, hear.) I wished to conduct my defence with as little acrimony as pos sible, and I will only state what is absolutely necessary in that defence. This meeting was held on the anniversary of the Irish rebellion and in the county of Tipperary..—( Hear, hear.) The inhabitants of that county were called together, and in a short time after it was the scene of one of the most horrible tragedies in the records of crime.--( Hear, hear.) It was a county also in which agra ti an di sturbances prevailed. Why were t hose scenes selected for the meetings which took 1844, health, and other imperative duties, from rendering their as sistance, and we proceeded therefore to constitute a Commies Zion suited to the public interest. The relation of landlord a nd tenant is of a peculiar nature in Ireland. I do not hesitate to say that there is an unfair and unjust prejudice against t he great body of landlords in Ireland. There is a presumpti an that they are guided by different principles from those which , . guide the laieherds in this country. No account is taken of the peculiar position in which they are placed , We could not • think of legislating on the subject without inquiring into the practice of different parts of the country—the practice of the north—taking the example of the estates where the tenatits acre prosperons, and bringing to light and exposure the, se landlords who pervert the law—and di criminating between the good landlords, the vast majority, and the harsh and overbearing landlord. Such, we thought, would afford' the best foundation foe useful ' legislation. The Noble Lord referred the other night to' st pamphlet called " A Cry for Ireland." I have read it, anS am shocked at how legal powers are, as it states, employed fof the purposes of oppression. The Noble Lord says, why not bring in a short Act of Parliament ? Will the Noble Lord per mit me to ask what has he been doing the last ten yers on this subject if he thinks legislation necessary ? The Noble Lord says that a Commission is dangerous. Why that 'is an argu ment against every inquiry. We could not inquire into the al leged grievances in Wales without a Commission. With respect to the recommendation of a short Act, the course pursued for the last ten yeah was that some individual Member not connected with the Go vernment, brought in a Bill, which, having been read a first and second time, was allowed to go into Committee, when the unfortunate Member was met with so many objections, that no further progress was made, and the session passed without anything being done. We could permit that to be done. We could permit the useful Member for Rochdale ( Mr. S. Crawford) to adopt that course, but we thought it better to act as we have done. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cork ( Mr. O'Connell) recommends the repeal of all the statutes passed on the subject since the union. The Honourable and Learned Member for Dungarron (Mr. Sheil) said that they contemplated interfering with the law of landlord and tenant, brought in by Mr. Lynch, which gave much greater power to the landlord. I cannot pass by the speech of the Hon. Member for Roscommon—and in that speech I could not see one particle of party feeling.—(Cheers. ) 'I he Hon. Member had acknowledged that the Government had a conviction that, under all the difficulties with which the case was beset, they had pursued the best course. The Go vernment was influenced by no other motive than a just desire to protect the rights of property, and, instead, of encouraging vague expectation, to probe the evils of Ireland to the bottom. With respect to the franchise, I will say that I should wish to carry out the principles of the Bill for the removal of the Catholic disabilities. I know not what may be the wish of the Noble Lord, the Member for London, with respect to the disturbance of the Reform Bill.—( Great laughter.) but this much I will say, that with respect to the Irish franchise, I think it ought to be substantially equal with that of Great Britain. I do not say that there should be an identity of fran chise between the two countries, because that is impossible; but there ought to be a substantial equality of civil privileges for Ireland, and compared with all the other parts of the em pire. That there ought to be an identity—that there ought to be a nominal equality between the two countries, is what I feel confident that many Hon. Gentlemen OR the other side of the House would be the last to desire, because gentlemen had been most anxious to deprecate the extension of what was called the Chandos clause, would encourage the landlords to refuse granting leases to the smaller class of tents. But I shall give no opinion upon the subject, and only refer to that argument in the course of the debate to show that there can be chance of identity of franchise between the two countries ; but still, I think, it will be sufficient for the purposes of this debate if I say that the franchise of the two countries should be substantially equal.—( Hear.) Sir, I now approach by far the most important subject of all— the course which I think we should take with respect to the Established Church. And I will, without reserve, and with the same explicitness, follow the course, my Noble Friend, the Secretary for the Colonies, and my Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary for the Home Department. I find the Protestant Reformed religion, and the Episcopal Church, esta blished by law in that country for 280 years; and I find the Establishment ratified and confirmed by Acts of Parliament partaking of the character of a solemn covenant, as much as such Acts could partake of that character.—( Hear, hear.) It was the intention of the Legislature, at the time of the union, to assure the Protestants of England and Ireland that the union should not endanger the Established Church in Ire land.—( Cheers.) I hope that gentlemen will not intertupt me in what I have to say.—( Cheers.) At a subsequent period —in 1829—1 have found that those who passed the Bill of Emancipation, and used all their influence to combat the ob jections of the Protestant portion of the people—always kept in view that it was necessary to give an assurance to the Protes tants, that if they acquiesced in removing the disabilities of the Ragan Catholics, there should be security for the Es tablishment.---( Hear, hear.) I say, that so far as a compact can have force, that compact has force. At the time of the union with Scotland it was settled that Presbyterianism should be the established religion of that country—and so it was with Ireland.—( Hear.) I was astonished, Sir, to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, in his very eloquent speech, refer to the subject of slavery, and state (as a proof that men sometimes changed their opinions) that Mr. Wilberforce pulled down the present Duke of Northumberland, then a Member of this House, and told hfm not to moot the abolition of slavery. In that allusion the Right Hon. Gentleman drew something upon his ima gination.—( A laugh.) I have referred to the report of the debate, and 1 find that what Mr. Wilberforce said in explanation was " I never said that slavery should not be abolished. I only said that the abolition should be post poned until the minds of the negroes should be prepared by education, to enjoy freedom." However that may have been, I cannot see how it could affect the paragraph in the Act of Union.—( Hear, hear.) I say also, that so far as authority can go, the highest authority is in favour of that view of the Act of Union. I do not speak of the Church, but of men who were of the highest authority, as expressing the opinions and feelings of the Catholic party. Could I name any higher authority than that of Mr. Burke, Mr. Grattan, Lord Plunket, and Sir John Newport.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Burke was the earliest, the ablest, and the most powerful advocate of the Catholic claims. He wrote much on the subject of the Penal Code, and those who had afterwards written and spoken on the same subject, had only followed the argu ments which suggested themselves to his no tice.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Mr. Burke did not conceal from himself any part of the truth, He said you have an ecclesiastical establishment which, although it is the rah gion of the Prince and the landed proprietors, is not the reli gion of the majority of the people. Mr. Burke was of opinion that the connexion of religion with the State should be held fast. He wished well to the religion of the great num ber of the primary landed proprietors of the kingdom—that religion which was one of the pillars of the Christian religion in this country.—( Herr, hear.) Such were the opinions of Burke. Lord Plunket said he would fling to the winds the question of the removal of the disabilities of Roman Catholics than compromise the existence of the Established Church. The dying request of Mr. Grattan wag, that the removal of the dis abilities of Roman Catholics might be combined with the maintenance of the Protestant Church in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) The opinion of Sir John Newport, who, though he didj not rank so high in intellectual endowments, loved his country, as well as either, he was in favour of Catholic emancipation, but was of opinion that the Protestant Church ought to be maintained as an establishment in that country. The compact was of a sacred and solemn nature, which guaranteed the preservation of the Protestant Church ; but if he were convinced that the social welfare of Ireland required a departure from the strict terms of that contract, and if it were sought to bind up our legislative functions, so as that we must. not alter it, he must say he was not prepared for that.— ( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) But he must at the same time say, that nothing had so great a tendency to lower the character of that House, as to break pledges solemnly made by it—to make a compact ten years ago, and violate it now.— ( Ilear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) Nothing could be so destructive to the prospects of future legislation, and unless ~there be some strong and over-ruling necessity—. (Hear, from the Ministerial benches)—l will maintain the Established Church in Ireland, not only on the existence of the compact, and the opinions of the most eminent statesmen, but on my own pure convictions.—( Hear, hear, from the Oppo sition benches.) I bring reason and conviction in aid of that compact, and I do not defend it upon a narrow ground. I do not believe it would be for the interests of Ireland, or any part of it, that I should accede to the motion for impairing the Established Church in Ireland, and I will assign my reasons. I am not now about to determine what would be the best measures for a new state of society, in which there were seven millions of Roman Catholics, and two millions whose faith was identified with the Established Church. But I talk of a country in which an Established Church has existed for more than 200 years, and which has been guaranteed by compacts, and by prescription. I consider that under all the circumstances of the case the present is the best regulation that could be effected. First of all I contend for the necessity of an establishment, and I apprehend my right to contend for that will not bo disputed. You have an example of an Establishment in England and Scotland, and my conviction is that it is necessary for the pur poses of religion that an establishment of some kind or other should exist.—( A laugh.) Do not take an advantage of an expression. I am now addressing myself to the first step in the argument of whether we should have establishments or not. One of my reasons for maintaining an establishment in Ire land, and it is a cogent one I trust, is that if you had no establishment in that country you would have more bitter religious animosities than exist at present. I look, therefore, to its effect upon Ireland ; but of this I am perfectly certain, that if you establish a precedent of having no establishment in Ireland little time will elapse before that precedent will be sought to be ap plied to England. The other night my Right Hon Friend, the Member for Pontfract, gave notice of a motion to make provision for the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, to which notice of amendment was given by the Hon. Member for Shef , field, to the effect that no provision for the maintenance of the secular Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland was just or expe dient, unless based on such a revision of the whole of the ec clesiastical system as to place the clergy of all deno minations upon a footing of perfect equality. The Honourable Member for Montrose would not wait for the passing of the Bill. lie would not wait for the motion, but on the day the original notice was given he was good enough to signify his intention of applying the same principle in Great Britain the moment that principle was affirmed. He also gave notice of a motion for an address to her Majesty, that she would be pleased to institute an inquiry as to what number of her Majesty's subjects dissented from the discipline of the Established Church, in England and Scotland, as well as in Leland, with a view to the appropria tion of the surplus revenues of the Church to the purposes of education, or some other national charitable purposes. Now, I say, if you apply this principle to Ireland, it will soon be sought to apply the same principle to England. I say, therefore, that my opinion is decidedly in favour of an establishment; and it is decidedly in favour of maintaining the Protestant Church as that establishment. —( Cheers ) I can not conceive a more important question than that which will arise as to the nature of the relation between an Established Church and the State The Roman Catholics say, that they will submit to no regulation by law. -The Protestant Church is controlled by law. You subject it to great restriction— you have prevented the meeting of the convocation, you regu late its acts—you are jealous of its authority—you subject it to the restraint of the law, but you subject it also to the milder influence of favour, and of patronage. You claim for the Crown that species of influence which is derived from the nomination of agreat part of the preferments in the Church. And it is difficult to estimate the effect of that influence on the Church. What do the Reman Catholics say ? They say we do not want an endowment. We refuse to submit to any such thing. You shall not bind us by any law. We will not sub mit to the nomination of spiritual persons being controlled by the Crown. We refuse to enter into any connection with you; and if you give us any endowment, we will not give you any control in our affairs. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem ber for Kildare, speaking with great deliberation and point, said, " If you try to solve the difficulty by entering into any arrangement with the Pope, and if you obtain a concordat from the supreme authority of the Church, even then, I tell yon, that your regulations will not be observed in Ireland, and your authority will not be obeyed. I tell you that the ecclesiastical authorities in Ireland will rebel against your arrangement." That was the declaration of the Right lion. Gentleman. Will the Hon. Gentleman then tell me what equality there would be in giving an endowment to that Church while it refuses to submit to those regulations which are esta blished in this country with respect to the Protestant Church ? place on the Hill of Tara, at Mullaghmast, and Clontarf? Every appeal was made by some of the speakers to revive the bitter animosities of barbarous times, and to evoke that fell spirit which exasperated the different races against each other. —( Hear, hear.) Now, look to the day chosen and the scene of the meetings, and I ask you, was there not evidence of the existence of a conspiracy to effect a legal object by illegal means ?_( Cheers.) Not by the present use of those means, hut by the display of physical force. But it may be asked, why did you interfere at Clontarf and not before ? Why, this ' is always the charge brought against those who act wills forbearance. You are charged with having forborne so long, and acting at length, if you show the least forbearance. But we interfered with the Clontarf meeting on this account : It was the second meeting which was held in the neighbourhood of the metropolis. The Clontarf meeting followed the meetings of Tara and Mullaghmast, but it had this distinguishing cha racter, that there was a military array attending the meeting at Clontarf—repeal cavalry were invited to attend the meeting. Were cavalry necessary for the purpose of petitioning Parlia ment ? ( Cheers.) They were invited by proclamation to at tend as a military body, and military terms were used through out the proclamation which was issued from the Corn Exchange. Mr. ROCHE—It did not issue from the Corn Exchange. Sir R. PEEL—I think the documents will bear me out, and lam pretty sure that the first proclamation bears the same proof of having issued from the Corn Exchange as the second proclamation.—(Hear, hear.) Am I right in what I state ? ( Loud cheers.) (The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the proclamation respecting the repeal cavalry, which has been so often referred to, and which was dated the Corn Exchange on the 3d September.) Why did we order this meeting to be suppressed.?, When this proclamation was issued we consulted the Lord Chancellor, the Attorney and Solicitor- Generals, on the subject, and we put this question to them— Whether independently:of other circumstances, this summoning of a meeting in military array, with military organization, con stituted an illegal meeting? because if it did we were deter mined on interfering by proclamation. The answer we re ceived was, that that particular meeting differed in character from the meetings which were held in Cashel and Mullagh mast, not on account of the numbers who assembled, hut on account of its military character ; and that it was therefore illegal, and that the Government would be warranted in issu ing a proclamation to suppress it. We resolved on issuing that proclamation, and the reason why it was issued so late has been so fully explained, that I will not go over the same ground again. The shortness of the time was unavoidable. It has been said that we did not issue the proclamation till late on the day—till five or six in the evening. I can refute that state ment by a reference to the counter proclamation referred to by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell). His counter proclamation was issued on Saturday the 7th at three o'clock.--(Chews.) Now ohse:ve that this proclamation must have been printed and arranged, and that it is dated at three o'clock.—( Hear, hear.) I lament the shortness of the time, but do not, far the purpose of aggravating the charge against the Government depart from the real facts.—(Cheers.) We determined on occupy ing the ground, and making such a demonstration as would prevent the possibility of a collision, and we determined also, after the notice we gave at the close of the session in the speech from the Throne of our determination on the subject of the repeal of the union, and after the dismissal of the magistrates, to prosecute the parties who were instrumental in getting up those meetings, and we determined on prosecuting them for that conspiracy, of which we have convicted them.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had asked why we did not prosecute the printers, and my Right Hon. Friend never had answered that question. The Government would then have been covered with ridicule for not striking at the authors of the danger, but contenting themselves with the punishment of those who were the mere instruments.— ( Hear, hear.) Sir, I will not go into the history of these transactions ; but I ask the House to remember the references to the United States, the publication of the speeches which the son of the President thought it decent for him to deliver ; the declaration of the son of the chief executive officer of the United States says—" but the libation of freedom must some times be quaffed in blood." The reason why we read the ex tracts from the newspapers was, that the writer belonged to an Association which undertook their circulation. Those news papers contained appeals to the army—strong, continued ap peals to every prejudice which could be raised in the mind of the Celt against the Saxon. He asked the House to bear in mind the scenes which were chosen for their meetings, scenes selected for the express purpose of reminding the Irish population of events in past history w hich they could not reflect upon with out feeling irritated. He called upon them to bear in mind the selection of the 23d of May—he called upon them to re member the songs which were introduced by scree one— he knew not by whom—into the barracks of the troops, who was responsible for the introduction of such songs as the fol lowing— Who fears to speak of Ninety-Eight? Who blushes at the name ? When cowards mock the patriot's fate, Who hangs kis head for shame? He's all a knave, or half a slave, Who slights his country thus ; But a true man, like you, man, Will fill your glass with us. Can you mistake the object of the studious circulation among an inflammable people, of songs like that? Who wa s the re sponsible party ? Was it not the man, whosoever it might be, who belonged to an association having subordinate officers, whose duty it was to circulate the newspapers containing these songs, and these appeals, as a return for the subscriptions which they received ?—( Hear, hear.) [Should we have been justified, in the state in which the country then vas, in declining to ap peal to our only instrument—the ordinary law of the country for the repression of such evils ? I will not go into the trials, the subject is completely exhausted. We determined, how ever, to appeal to the law, and we did appeal to it. I declare that nothing was further from our wish than that the jury should be constituted upon any other principles than such as were consistent with perfect justice; or that Roman Ca tholics should be excluded from the jury, simply be cause they were Roman Catholics. We appealed to the law and we succeeded ; the offence charged was within the law. We had only one instrument—we had no Coercion Act ; we determined not to avail ourselves of Protestant feel ing. You make it a charge against us that we resorted to the only instrument in our power. Let me put the House in possession of the state in which the country was placed by this continued agitation.—(;'ear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet then read a description of Tipperary on the 20th of October, 1843, when fires wer3 lighted on the hills every night, and the inhabitants were in constant ex pectation of an insurrectionary movement.) Was this (con tinued the Right Hon. Baronet) for the purpose of petition? --(lronical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches.) Was not this the result of that fearful system of agitation which left us at last no alternative, if we really wished to prevent an insurrectionary movement ? The only recourse left to us was to summon the chief authors of this agitation to answer for it to their country.—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) We preferred the charge under the same law by which you had prosecuted Vincent—under the same law under which you had read newspapers and made parties responsible for their publication. We brought the charge, not against subordinate parties, but against those who said "we will prove to you that thi, do-nothing policy will not succeed ; we declare that the Queen has power to repeal the Act of Union; we will drive a coach and six through all your laws; we will prove to you that we can evade and defeat the law." Well, then we stepped forward, not in consequence of these taunts, but in consequence of the state into which the country had been brought by this pernicious agitation. We said "We will go before the country and ask whether these things are tolerable where civil go vernment is maintained." I repeat, we succeeded. The Bench unanimously declared that the law had not been per verted, but that it applied to the offence charged. The jury brought in a discriminating and considerate verdict, and the par ties charged were convicted of the offence laid in the indictment. We have done all this without coercion, without applying to Parliament for extended powers.—(Cheers.) Having done all this without the effusion of blood—(Cheers)—without conflict or collision —(Reiterated cheers)—we find a powerful party arrayed against us who find fault with us for our forbearance at one time, and for our vigour at another.—( Cheers ) They are wise after the results are known—(Cheers)—and every effort taken during that anxious time to carry the law into effect by the law has been tracked with all the sagacity of party, in ord er t o fi n d out some little error.—( Cheers.) They charge us with being reckless—(Cheers)—with having endeavoured to trample liberty under foot, with being desirous of governing Ireland not according to law.--( Cheers. ) If we had taken such a course, if we had acted too precipitately, if we had dispersed meetings which we were not legally entitled to disperse, if we had charg e d any s i ng l e i n di v id ual w i th atten di ng an illegal meeting, and had failed, if we had selected some poor printer for prosecution, and sent him to gaol—(Cheers)—the walls of this House would have rung to sounds very different to those with which they are now ringing.—( Cheers. ) You would have told us that we interfered without necessity, that we had evinced a desire to interfere with the rights of petition— ( Cheers)—that ve had not the courage to select the favourites of the people—(Cheers) —but that weehad pursued the unmanly and paltry course of indicting vengeance upon a printer, but that we had not dared to attack the powerful leaders.—(Conti need cheering.) I will, however, say, in the face of the coun try, that in repressing this agitation, we have had no assistance from those on the other side.—( Loud Ministerial cheers.) This I may say with perfect truth. (Continued cheers.) You know what it is to be exposed to the same -dangers.—( Cheers. ) You have had organised meetings against the Constitution to contend with.—(Cheers.) It has been your painful fate to have to deal with the fires at Bristol— ( Cheers)—with the attack upon Newport—(Cheers)—with an insurrection in Canada—(Cheers)—and if at that time you found a powerful party ranged against you—(Load cheers)—if we had taken up M. Papineau—( A laugh)—l do not mean taken up the man, but if we had espoused his cause—(Cheers) —if, while your proceedings in Canada were pending, we had brought forward a motion inculpating you for sending up ex officio informations when the grand jury had ignored your bills —if we had tracked every step taken by you, and contented ourselves with expressing a faint condemnation of the acts of a man who was advocating the cause of liberty, yon would have found it a much more difficult task than you did to vindicate the law.—(Cheers.) I have thus offered a vindication of the Government for the forbearance which we manifested at first, and for our determination to make use of no other instrument than the law, and for our application to the law when the con tinuance of the agitation left us no other alternative. — (Cheers.) I have now to state to the House the course of policy which we hereafter propose to pursue. I do not hesitate to declare, that, as the Hon. Gentleman says, we must consider in the present state of Ireland what measures its pub lic interests may require, and I will not be driven, by the fear of any taunts or of quotations from Hansard, from fully and freely expressing my opinion as to the course which we ought to pursue.—(Cheers.) I should be ashamed of myself if I were prevented by the fear of being charged with incon sistency, from adopting any measures which I believed would be conducive to the restoration of peace in that country.— (Cheers.) My apprehensions on this important subject are enhanced by the position of Ireland with respect to its physical and to its moral wants—by its position with respect to its civil and political, and more especially with respect to its religious state. The Hon. and Learned Member for Cork attached great, but not undue, importance to the influence of the physi cal condition of Ireland.—( Cheers.) Ho stated very truly that the sense of political grievances would be much less if the physical condition of the country were better.—(Cheers.) But when he was demanding an exact identity of the franchise, I wonder it did not occur to him that, if wealth and intelligence are to be taken into consideration in the bestowal of the fran chise in a country where seventy per cent. of the population were in a state of absolute destitution, it must be more dangerous to grant an extension of the franchise than in a country where such a state of things is not in existence. There is one subject, however, in the consideration of which, without reference to political questions, we can all unite. I mean the improvement of the social condition of Ireland—that was a matter of the deepest consideration with us last session. The Hon. and benevolent Member for Rochdale brought in a Bill towards the end of the session, for improving the relations between landlord and tenant. He promised the Hon. Gentle man to introduce some measure on the subject ; but we found it was a matter involving such vast interests, that we could not legislate on it safely, without full previous inquiry. We, therefore, advised the appointment of a Commission, composed of landlords of Ireland, distinguished equally by their rank and by their kind consideration for their tenants, and to that Commission we intrusted that inquiry. In order to show that no religious feelings were mixed up in the appoint ment of the members of the Commission, it was certainly our wish that it should have consisted, in addition to the Earl of Devon, of two Protestants and two Roman Catholics. The gentlemen applied to were prevented by considerations of tahgiazinsctouthnetreyxetrocisec..._ ffaiYrsouotfhinthk the Church necessary On the part of all Churches there is a disposition to remonsta .a ! ll '''' ofonetrivoill power. You cegury b i : - very strict enactments. In Scotland you , hv have lately found c •se two parties in th e E s t a bli s h e d Chur ' lahltsi ng en from ci v il control and asking for indepe exemption ndeiiii = ln that_ ou case you l oo k e d w i t h t h e utmost jealousy at those claims. I positively refused to accede to their demandof from civil authority, and• you permitted a greatpart Church to sever their' connexion, rather than enter arrangement. What would your ' own Church Protestant E • piscopalian Church asked for itspresent and Tights—you being the Established Church—would permit that Cnurch to have them? authority of the civil power, the ri ghts others to presentation, and the title to Roman Catholic s ys, we claim independenceo exemption of that into an y do? If th e property you Or will you allow the end of the Crown, and endowments ? But the and yet you would give revenues to a Churcha for ourselves; a Church, that will not hold herself inn a tilho!ityr to And this you call equality !—( Loud cheers ) a e r f ro tance , ,:o not believe that the preference is given to the Prote w st l ant E pi . - coyalian Church from any wish to show disrespect—least of all to to row insult—upon the faith of others. Ido believe that in this em e ntry a preference is given to the Protestant Episco ban Church from a preference to its doctrines—( Cheers) from a decided preference to its doctrines—( Cheers)---and I contend also 1: - Ist that preference implres no insult upon those who dissent from its doctrines, and that it is extravagant to say that because I have a pre ference for its doctrines, that it involves me in the neces sity of persecuting any other Church whatever.—( Loud cheers from all parts of the House.) Whatever reasons lor you may have for Fele' ring the Establishment—and there is no necessity for going into them at this moment—that does not imply that we have any right whatever to question the right of others to the fullest freedom in the exercise of their faith. I turn to the propositions of the lion. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward) I consider those propositions exactly tantamount to a totol suppression of the Protestant Church in Ireland.— ( Hear, hear.) That Hon. Gentleman says—Let us divide the revenue of this Church—let us give 70,000/. to the Protes tant, 70,0001. to the Presbyterians, and 450,0001. to the Roman Catholics. Why there is no equality in this.—(Cheers.) Se verity thousand pounds to the Protestants who submit to our civil authority, and know no foreign one , and four hundred and fifty thousand to a Ch urc h w hi c h prides itself on dividing that authority, and being independent of all national control whatever !—( Loud cheers.) Why this is the reverse of equality—and it is more than that, it is gross injustice.— ( Cheers. ) But a Noble Lord ( Howick) talked by analogy. Is that Noble Lord prepared to permit those who acknowledge allegiance in Church matters, not to the Crown of England but to a foreign spiritual authority—is he, I ask, prepared to allow the Catholic bishops to take their seats-in the House of Lords ? If he is 'not, then your principle of analogy is good for nothing.—(Cheers.) Here is the religion guaranteed by several Acts of Parliament, by long prescription, by thousands and thousands of ties of the strongest and most endearing character, by an alliance with the State of two hundred and fifty years, and we are told not to maintain it, because its existence is inconvenient.—(Cheers.) I ask, what, then, will promote religious peace in Ireland? Do you suppose that it will promote mutual concord and peace to say to the Protestants—" Equality of franchises is es tablished. You now must give up your Church ?"—(Loud cheers.) You little know the spirit you would evoke. —(Loud cheers.) But your equality. your division of revenues, your analogy, you never attempt to work out so that we may look upon practical results. Supposing you to get your proposed 450,000/. of revenue, what will you do with the churches ?—( Hear, hear.) Do you mean to call on the Protestants to sacrifice the endowments and give up the churches too.—(Cheers.) lou must do that, or where is your analogy. If you give the endowments in the proportions proposed, you must, by your own rule, give the churches in the same proportion.—( Hear, hear, and cheers. ) I believe that a proposition more calculated to ensure discord was never propounded.—( Hear, hear.) I am, therefore, pre pared to offer just as decided an objection to that proposal of the Hon. Gentleman, as I am to oppose the transfer of the revenues of the Establisument to the Roman Catholic Church. There is another proposal. It was, not to venture at once to destroy the Church, but to undermine and sap its foundations. I think that course just as fatal as any other. I think that, not ;to destroy life at once, but to infuse some slow poison into the veins, which will ultimately cause its destruction, is a course as little likely to promote either social or religious peace, at either of the others.— (Cheers.) I therefore come to the conclusion, founding my self upon competes, on authority, and on the convictions of my own mind, that the best course—and the course which I, for one, as far as my humble powers can effect it, the Government will pursue—is to maintain in its integrity the Protestant Church Establishment.—(Loud and continued cheering. ) When I say in its integrity, I do not mean to exclude all such reforms as may increase the efficiency of the Establish ment for the purposes of religion,. but I do mean that I will neither consent to overthrow the Church, or to establish three forms of religion in Ireland, or to make a division of the revenues of the Church between the Protestants, the Presbyterians, and the Roman Catholics ; nor can I consent to any of those' smaller proposals, which mean nothing if they do not mean the ultimate destruction of the Church. I have therefore stated the grounds on which I propose to act with respect to the religious esta blishments of Ireland ; does that compel me to exclude alto gether the consideration of the position of the Roman Catholic Church in that country ? Am I to consider that Church as altogether outcast, and to be excluded from any consideration of regulations that may improve its condition ? Endowments from the State you absolutely reject. We were assured that by the voluntary endowments of individuals it might be provided for without the violation of conscience, and yet with the concession of a great boon. The Noble Lord, the Member for Tiverton, threw out this suggestion last session in a friendly spirit, and we professed our readiness to consider it. As usual, we are met with a state ment that it will not be of the slightest value ; it is rejected on the authority of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman We were assured that many Protestants would be disposed, for the sake of promoting peace, and for the purpose of improving the condition of the Church and charitable establishments, to make voluntary endowments to the Catholic. clergy. The absence of such endowments is alluded to by Mr. Scurry, in his work on Ireland, as a great evil. ( The Right Ho nourable Barocet read the passage, which stated that the doubts whether such funds would not be appropriated to Protestant establishments, amounted to an absolute prohi bition to their being made.) That absolute prohibition (con tinued the Right Hon. Gentleman) we are willing to remove, accompanied with such securities as would prevent any abuses, that might arise from the removal. I was certainly surprised to-night, at hearing, for the first time, the offer met in the manner it has been. We are, however, still prepared to con sider our promise. There only remains the subject of edu cation.—( Hear, hear.) I might refer you to the course we have taken on National Education as sufficiently indicative of our determination to adopt those measures we believe conducive to the welfare of Ireland, even at the risk of offending many of our supporters. We pro rose in the present year to make a considerable increase in the grant for the purpose of national education. I should be very sorry to refuse to consider the means of still further increasing the means of furnishing that education. It has been suggested that instruction in the science of agriculture might be usefully given in Ireland, and advantageously engrafted on the present system of education. ( Hear, hear.) I should be sorry to exclude all considerations of matters of this kind; I should be sorry to exclude a consideration of the means of providing the means of an academical education of a higher class than those educated in the national schools.—( Hear, hear. But at present we do propose to make a considerably increased grant for the purposes of national education. I have now done. I thank the House for the attention with which it has heard me.—(Cheers). I trust it feels that I have only trespassed a; such a length on its attention from a sense of the necessity of discharging a public duty.—(Cheers.) I have stated our general views of the policy and measures we intend to adopt. In themselves they may not be immedirte and effectual remedies for the evils under which Ireland labours ; but I trust I have said enough so show the spirit in which the Government is prepared to consider the questions connected with the legislation of Ireland. I was reminded by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Shrewsbury, in a very able speech, not the less to be admired because it departed from the general rule of Parliamentary usage; I was reminded by the Hon. Member, that 1 said that the question of the state of Ireland was one of far too much im portance to be sacrificed and treated as a question of party ex pediency. I said, that however Hon. Gentlemen might be attached to the party of the Government, but that if on the question of the state of Ireland they might consider larger and more extensive measure necessary than we were inclined to promote, I said, and I said with perfect truth, that I thought this questien one of such paramount importance, that all questions of party considerations must give way to it, and I thought that any gentleman giving his vote was bound to give a free vote—an unfettered vote on this important question. I would on no question make any sacrifice of principle, but for the good of Ireland, and for any question or measure tending to promote her welfare, I would make any personal sacrifice, and have made sacrifices before now for the purpose of extending peace to Ireland.—( Loud cheers.) I have for this end made sacrifices of which the loss of office was the least. I have suffered the loss of private friends—and the alienation of personal attachment and private esteem.— ( Cheers.) Why am I not this moment the representative, in stead of the rejected candidate of the university of Oxford ? When we proposed emancipation in 1828, the loss of offieial power was certain, and I yielded in the hope of promoting peace in Ireland, but with deep emotion ; and for the same purpose I sacrificed also that which was the proudest distinction of my life, the representation of the University of Oxford. I regret that I must consider the present condition of Ireland as not being what it ought to be ; but I hope the civil power in Ireland will continue to maintain itself, without the aid of the military power. while we remain in office we will assert the power and dignity of the law.—(Loud cheers.) We will assert the power of the law firmly, powerfully, and calmly, although we deprecate the use of extreme measures, which should only be resorted to in eases of the most urgent necessity ; but having resorted to them, and vindicated the insulted dignity of the laws, we are satis fied. Our object was to restore peace and tranquillity, and with them to bring prosperity and happiness to the country. We have succeeded in restoring friendly relations with France and all other foreign powers. We have succeeded in improving the commerce of the country . We have succeeded in securing a surplus in the revenue over the expenditure. We have seen the revival of the commercial and manufactur ing prosperity; but in the midst of these cheering prospects, we have had to contend with that baneful " intestinum et domesticum helium ;" and we cannot, I regret again to say, express our satisfaction with the state of Ireland, but I trust, however, that that alternative which party suggests, which says that we cannot govern Ireland without militery force. I hope and trust that this suggestion is not well-founded, it is said that by party influence, peace may be restored ; but I think that without party influences or patty motives, we may be able to govern Ireland as she ou"ht to be governed. I see much cause for congratulation, and hope when we view the noble applications of science and its wonderful progress, I shall not be surprised if in my day I seeithe interval between Dublin and London shortened to within a twelve hours' journey. The reports of engineers show that the interval between both cities could be shortened to a journey of fourteen hours.— ( Hear, hear.) My belief is that with the progress of im provement it will be still further shortened. (Hear, hear.) I cannot help thinking that in the upper classes of society there is a growing disposition to obliterate past animo sities.—( Hear, hear.) Ide net now hear debates on the state of Ireland as compared with what I have heard in debates in former times without seeing prevailing through the House a strong disposition to forget differences of creed, and obliterate distinctions of race.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) When anything is said by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House in kindly disposition, it is met by Hon. Gentle men opposite of the Roman Catholic persuasion in a spirit cor responding to the spirit in which it is made.—( Hear, hear.) I do therefore earnestly trust that the influence of public opinion as well as if the law may control agitation. and ma y convince convince those who are concerned in it that it is prejudicial vemensto. the best interests of Ireland—that it impedes improvemen t, the pr r o edress of prevents the application of capital—prevents can be better those grievances which I am persuad e d. d i interposition and re dressed by the application of individ ua l the Government can do. exertion than by anything that 'f peace and tranquility were I have a firm conviction thato the i f British empire would make restored in Ireland, no par prosperity.—( Loud cheers.) There such rapid progress in ar e facilities and oppo r tunities for improvement in that cou ntry, whic h , I believe, would cause it to advance more rapidly in prosperity than any other portion of the empiro..-. (Cheers.) I conclude by expressing an earnest hope that this I • •a'