The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-15 00:00:00

admit that h s oneof the Noble Lord'B (Lord Castlereagh) best friends ; and if the Noble Lord could only be sensible of it, and follow his advice, he would place him beyond the reach of any harm.—(A laugh.)—As to what passed the other night, there must be blame on one side of the other; but it was plain that the lion. and Gallant Gentleman belonged to the unreasonable party, and he (Mr. Hume) to the reasona ble one.—(Laughter.)-.One of the arguments of the Gallant Member against reducing the present establishment down to the standard of 1787 or 1792, was that in those years we were in a state of perfect tranquillity and peace. He should like to know how the Gallant Ge- neral could make out that we were not in this state in the year 1821. He said that they ought to be prepared to interfere in the state of Italy ; but the Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh) had con troverted this reason by saying that this could be no-excuse. for adding a single man to the army. The Gallant General had stated that 17,821 men of the existing military establishment were not useful for colonial purposes, whilst the two Noble Lords opposite said they wanted these troops in consequence of the addition to the co lonies. Let them reduce half of them, and there would be 8000 of the ten whose reduction was desired. The two Noble Lords opposite (Lords Castlereagh and Palmerston) had taken great cre dit to themselves for the saving in the Commissa riat Department of 74,000/. and also of 50,0001. for the yeoma nr y. The fact, however, was h that there \s - asno saving ataliunder these heads. Z he expense of - the Commissariat Department in 1818, was 3 94,0001.; in 1819 380,0001.; in 1820, 476,0001. so that thii saving, as it was called, did not even bring us back to the year 1818. It was the same With the Barrack Department—the .say . - ;ings consisted of sums laid on in 1820, and taken o ff in , part in the present year. The gallant Lord (Lord Palmerston) talked of being about to re duce 11 regiments, by which a _saying of 1 45,0001. wou ld accrue . Why, thi s eras, not the mount of the cost' of live battalions. The rea son of this was, that it was the Veteran Regi ments that wer e reduced,and not Reg u l ar s ; th e ~, eterans retiring on full:pay,and the men upon a Regulars. rate of pension than the privates of the It egulars. The pay of the Officers of a Veteran Battalion 1000 strong,• amounted in pay, allow ances, and clothing, to 31,.5001. • When .reduced, there would -be for the retired pay of the Offi cers 7,5201. for the men at 8,1. per day, being Fd: more than full pay formerly—there would be 1 2,0001., making the whole expellee 19,5201. The saving, therefore, upon the reduction of a Veteran Battalion, was 12,0001. , The amount o f Pay for the Officers of a marching regiment, 'hen reduced, was 3,7391.--of the men, at. six- Pence per day, G,3ool.—total 11,0391. being a saving of upwards of 20,0001. Taking away from this, the amount of the saving on a Veteran Battalion, there would be in the reduction of 10 Regiments of Regulars -a saving of eighty thou sand or a hundred thousand pounds. lie -had a right therefore to complain of want of economy in the selection of .Regiments for reduction. The Mon. Gentleman, in - rEferring to the state of N r _Colotlies.observed, that he understood there we re several • thousand native troops in Ceylon, °l' 411 account of which he should move to-mor- Z, v ' There were several regiments of thersame tid 2 tir e at the Cape of Good Hope ; and in Ca b;4l4 there•used to be a large militia. The num b , or 32,000 men for the Coloni e s was too great fr nany thousands. He had omitted in his esti mls 'e of the 'internal military force thirty-eight i s l rnents of Irish militia, to which were HO less than 1000 officers. He enum era t e d attach the numbers of the4inglish militia, the yeomanry, 1 1 'd volu n t eers , andshowed that altogether we 1 , 141 at present a body of 207,000 Men in arms, or 11 4(1 5' to be called upon should their services be 44 ting. In the present circumstances of the , th at House h e would ask, ought th e M em be rs o f nouse to support so extravagant an establish- Theni ? Should this be continued, if ar y man after 'ards should complain of Agricultural or other distress, he ought not to be attended to,, and the ° , 111 5' answer he would .be entitled "to receive, was 1 , 4 55" You vot e d' for the present Milita r y Esta -I'tiisbment." He commented on vari ous p ar t s o f the statement made by the Noble Lord opposite, t ie dargued that from his . o wn sh o wing it resu lt e d t i t at at pr e s en t th ere .were too many officers for s t e number of men to be commanded ; and on c ‘i(ssi , of the whole he -was satisfied that a re . .. l ictlon of 20,000 men ought now to take place. e Staff, which in 1792 cost the country 17,1211. li ts ted an expence in . 1802' of 194341. and . I) ° ,‘‘' arPolllll.ed to : no less. than . 80,000/. as sr 4a t ed from the estimates on their table; This 4, 4 ' 4 l expense greatly disproportioned to the If, : 13 , as well as the necessities of the country. 4 ) 1, - 1 "d no hesitation in saying, that millions 11 1 ,,`' t he saved to the country. After spewing 0,7,we had a body, of 000,000 men either in arms ", able to be called upon-in case their• services I .: r e wanting, he thought he could .not justly be r il a rded as a v i s ion ar y, or as one disposed to. si, ' t he Pcsa:e of the country, when he suggested a reduction 0'20,000 rneq might .take place. t 're this done there would be a saving in ,088,256 ....• • t le r.r c nce .k., for Conamiscarlat. and Extraoraries • exPe tiarrison din &e. now amoanting 434,759 0, °:l4,oool,ight be redec,eit so I fa , ...:lye a salvnog of - 22,900 t he Military College I heft! be effected a n t arinv 15,000 , . - asyni.a. one of grid on the Hal' pay there might be a saving 0f.... 100,000 Thi s might be-accomplished by bringing forward . Obis now on half-pay when new commissions were issued. He 'would she iv that since 1816. re Duke of York had appointed 1,105 . new - ` -' ornmissions, and adoptin g thi s course instead of "ringing forward Officers en the Half-pay List, t} t}taking the Commissions at tw e lv e y ears p urc h ase , kin g patronage of his Royal Highness the Duke of .ork, cost the country 718,0001. In the pmsent distressed state of the country, he would say again this _system ought not to be persevered in. It had been said that if the reductions he had re commended were made it would distress the Officers now on half-pay. He admitted that •tlnsir di s t ress at present-was-great, as.the -pittance they received prevented them- from seeking ho- Z urable - oc cu p at i on as they .might have done sesshere, Ile complained of. the Fore)o . n En listment Bill, prei•ented them from main. tailing themselves and their families in comfort by opposing usurpation and tyranny. Ile . had been informed, and he believed it to be the fact, that many Cornets who received half-pay Were now at school. They had obtained commissions, and were thus immediately placed on the half=pay list. Instead of appointing young Officers in this man ner on all occasions , , it was his opinion, that individuals ought to he brought forward from the half-pay list who were willing to serve.— Were the reduction made Which he recommended —a reduction of '20,000 men, there would be at once effected a saving of 1,500,000/. per ann. lie hoped Members would not be lulled into an idea when a reduction of 10,000 men was called for, that merely a paltry saving was recommend. ed, as the annual expenditure would at once be di minished (as he had shewn) by 750,0001. and that with perfect safe'ty to the Country, and without creating dissatisfaction anywhere. In what he had saki, he begged to say, .he had not m' ant to cast the slightest • reflection on any individual connected with the several departments to which •he had alluded ; he wished to speak not against them, but against the system now acted upon. In is opinion, no man in that House would do his duty to his country who did. not on the present occasion vote for the moderate reduction of 10,000 men.' Sir H. ViviAx explained: _ _ _ , Sir H. HanDING said, the system of the Guards had been inquired into by the Finance Commit tee of 1817, and it had been reported by them to require no alteration, as they were satisfied that the same numbers could not be kept up at a cheaper rate. 11e showed, that if the whole system were re-modelled, but a small saving could be effected. For the expense said to be lavished on the dress of . the Guards, he had to remark, that it was known to every military man, that the expense of a change in their dress must fall on the Coloiiel, and not on the country. With respect to the ,Guards' efficiency, it had been said they were not so available as troop's of the line, because they were stationary in Europe. If it were true that their services were confined to Europe, it could only be said that they were kept for the duties which they *ere originally intended to perform. But during the American war, the Guards had served in America.— Had they .not also served in Egypt ? For his part, he knw of nothing that could oppose their being- sent to Botany bay to-morrow, if their services should be required there. lie shewed that the Guards had been most actively engaged during the war, and that far from being kept up for vain parade, they had to perform much more severe duty than ordinarily fell to the share of coops in the line, or to those serving in garri- The Guards had, in effect, too much duly to perform,: they had so mild!, that when called out on a sudden emer4ency, from being so work ed by the pressure of business, they had not strength to go through the duty. As to the state ment that the Guards' establishment was over giown, it was a mistake to suppose that it had been increased. When created 15() years ago, it consisted as now of seven battalions. It con sisted of the same number of battalions in 1792. The only increase that had taken place was, the addition of Light Infantry, but the same addition had been made to hegiments of the Line. In 179'2, there were forty-seven in each company ; now there were seventy-two ; but the number of Officers reniaiiied the same as at the former period, and the number of Men had been necessarily increased to meet the increase of duty. It had been said that the price of labour had advanced but as from four to five., while the pay of the troops had been doubled. This was a misconception. ForMerly, it was true, the soldier received very little pay, but then his allowances for half-mountings, ar rears, and other things were more considerable; and he considered it to be n advantage to the public that these had been done away, and the pny augmented. The question now was, whether or not the pay was excessive. The soldier at present received one shilling per day. From this a deduction of sixpence was made for his rations of bread and meat. This was an advantage to the soldier when provisions were dear, and a benefit to the public when they were cheap. —Out of the remaining sixpence the soldier had to find himself in shirts, stocks, 'shoes, pipe clay, stockings, &c. A very economical sol dier, after providing himself with these articles, would have about twopence halfpenny or two pence three farthings to spend in a day on beer, tobacco, and similar luxuries. This twopence halfpenny, or twopence three farthings, was the only tangible part of his income, and if a saving of ten per cent. was made on the soldiers pay it must be on that. He' explained and defended the present system of reliefs. For Gibraltar, which one lion. Member had proposed to give up, lie, as a military man, might have prejudices on the subject, but he was of opinion that its pos session was of no small importance to this coun try. During - the late war it had furnished sup plies-`to the squadron of Sir James Saumarez, consequence of which he was enabled to pursue the enemy's fleet which had passed on to Algiers, and obtain considerable advantages which could not have been obtained had not Gibraltar been ours. Mi. CALVERT said that at that time Malta was not in our'possession. Mr. GOULBURN thought he could not better racommend him , elf to the attention of the House than by promising not to follow the Hon:lVlem- her through his details. lle was content to leave the House anti the Country to decide on the statements which had been made, and felt inclin ed to pass them over altogether. Ile however, could not help remarking, that the unusual course taken on a former night had been resorted to, in order to afford Gentlemen who had not previously spoken, an opportunity of expressing their senti mentg, while to night, with the excepti on o f the lion. Member for Hertford, the only .persons who joined in the discussion were_ those who had made speeches on the subject when it was last brought under their consideration. lie should not_ take qpon himself to say, whether or not the argu ments which hall been used on this occasion were such as to justify the delay which had taken place. In defending-the arrangements Made for keeping up a suitable force for the dW . ence of our Colonies, he laboured under considerable difficulty, as the llonse had been told that they ought not to take the Opinions of those who were connected with the Colonial Department; as they had an interest in upholding the present system, and they were also admonished not to. repose confidence in those whose military talents and habits might enable them to .speak on this sub jecL That which was principally objeited to was, the force kept tip for the defence of the Colonies in the Mediterranean, and that sta tioned at St. Helena. The force kept in the Mediterranean was certainly considerably larger than that which was maintained there in 1 ; 792. ; but it was to be remembered, that we had then only Gibraltar to defend. Now we had to gar rison Malta, which even the. Hon. Member who wished us to give up Gibraltar did not desire us to abandon; and we had besides the lonian Islands, to defend. It would be remembered, that there were seven Islands under our protec tion, in one of which there Was a fortress of considerable strength, which was to be main tained. In consequence of this, instead of 3,500 troops which were stationed in 1792 at Gibral tar, the force kept there was reduced. Ministers were enabled to do by the arrangements which became necessary for the other Colonies in the Mediterranean, and a force of 7,000 men was appropriated to the defence of the whole. At St. Helena a considerable force had been stationed. Without going into particulars he shoUld generally state that the object of its being stationed there was of the very greatest importance. In this the House would concur, and if it should be found that a degree Of over-caution had been used, he did not think that much blame would fall on Ministers. The expellee of the establishment at Saint Helena arose from the mode of guarding the individual who was a captive there, and from re luctance to put, him under ally personal re straint. 1 t was judged proper to allow him every indulgence which that isle could afford, and troops were therefore stationed in different parts of the island. The expenee- might certainly he reduced, if the House and the Country should be prepared to declare that his -confinement ought to be more rigorous. It was said that all the co lonies ought to be made to pay their own ex pences. This would be contrary to the original contract made with them, as it had been agreed that in consideration of their giving England the benefit of their trade, this Country should take upon herself the charge of their defence. If they were allowed an unliinited trade, they would readily engage to defend themselves. • On the present occasion he would not enter at large into the great question, whether or not our colo nial system was that which ought to be preferred or not ; but he thought it fair to state, w h a t the original contract between this country and its de pendencies had been. It had been said that under Holland the Cape had not only paid its own expellees, but maintained and paid an army of 5,000 men stationed there. To shew that this statement was incorrect, he would read a letter from Messrs. Schimmelpennick to the Governor of the Cape, who was said to have paid the army which had been mentioned. The letter was dated June 1805, but a short period antecedent to its being captured by the British, and ran thus :—" Your account of the Colony to the Government confirms our idea, namely, that the Cape is not that El Dorado which some of our countrymen had thought it, and that it is not practicable to bring it to that state which . the GoYernment supposed it might attain at the time of your departure from Europe. If we could contrive to raise some produce of value, we might in time provide the Cape with an actual credit, and -in that case the Colony might be en abled to bear its own expellee." If any one proof more than another could refute what had been advanced, he thought it was a proof like this. Sir R. FERGUSON remarked, that in 1795, when the Cape fell into our possession, Genei al Craig had appropriated to himself 30001. per annum, till his Majesty's pleasure was known, which sum he expected would be sufficient. Mr. GOULBURN said, that was on the supposi tion that he was to receive the large fees which the former Governors had enjoyed. When the lion. 'Member spoke of the anxiety of the Noble Lord, at the head of the Colpnial Department, to extend his own patronage, it was to be regret ted that he had not looked at the efforts which he had made to divest himself of patronage, in order to expedite the public business and correct those abuses which had previously existed. The Honourable Gentleman could not forget that one of the first things which he had done, on coming into office, was to introduce a Bill into Parlia ment, to take from himself the power of appointing to any situation of importance persons who did not reside in the colony. He might also have remembered how that Noble Lord had dealt with the great offices that he found there ; and he might have stated that the salary of the Governor had been reduced three thousand five hundred pounds, while that of the Lieut.-Governor had been altogether abolished. Nor did this colony afford the only instances to be adduced of con duct like that which he had described. In all the colonies whore large sinecures had been found they had been reduced, an adequate salary given to those who performed the duty, and the remainder thrown into the general revenue.— The Hon. Gentleman, too, who so much compas sionated the situation of the Half-pay Officers, might have known that all the considerable offi ces which had fallen vacant in the colonies since that Noble Lord had been, in his present situa tion, had been bestowed on Half-pay Officers. lie was bound to state thus much in order to do justice to that Noble Lord, and to . that Adminis tration of which he formed a part. He defended the Foreign Enlistment Bill, and showed that that measure had not greatly injured the Half-pay Officers of this country. He maintained that the employment of black troops was beneficial, and stated that the expence of that force was chiefly or wholly borne by the Colony, and did not ap pear on the estimates. Ile defended the present reliefs, and showed if they were more frequently made ; it was in consequence of the alteration • which-had taken plZ^^ 1;4 tile se: rice, tite constant tranvoron , g of whole reghne . tsllaving been made necd3sary in conse . qiience of the poti , er of drafting from- one regiment to azTotheri whiLli Was pds sessed in 179'2, being j , Mr. .T; P. GRANT did nut propOse going alto particulars ; but looking at the force de.maitied for the new ColonieS—loOking at •the cOntiilued mis-goVehinent of frt.‘lainl, which made it ne, cessary to . maintain .a greater force there than was formerly called for ; allowing for their., and looking at the situation of the country, it appeared to him that there was an excess over the establishmka of 1792, of no. less than twenty-one thousand 'nen. lie contended that where a force of -:12,003 Men had been found sitilicient in 1792, there was now employed no-less than 66,000. Iyhat was there, he would ask, in the internal or external state of our old Colonies ; what was: there, either in the continuance of peace or in the expectation of war, which required an increase of troops to the extent of one half more than the numbers called for by Mr. Pitt,, in 1792 1 lle thought he had said enough to make out a priiza fig* case why the Estimates ought to be re duced; and the Honourable .Secretary was call ed on to chew an opposite case, and to prove the existence of reasons why_ the fOrcti 1 - 10 W proposed was necessary. He knew he should be told that now there were arsenals, and de pots, and places' for the preservation .of stores,. and he would acknowledge that there were some additional'establishmtmts of, this kind. But then he had given credit in the calculathins he had made upon the relative number of the troops now. proposed for these services, and. those ern, ployed in 1792, for reliefs upon thiS duty to the amount of 4,000 men. lie thought there was no case made out whatever, and it was the bounden .duty of the House not •to grant the proposed establishments. If the House, was really anxions . that the state of the country should be preserved entire—if it really wished the country to be in a condition to meet any change of circumstances which might occur, it ought to keep watch upon the resources of the country, and see that they were properly husbanded. And he was sure that their Constituents had a right to• call upon them not to leave any thing to the promises of Ministers, but see themselves that those re sources were properly husbanded upon every occasion. Sir RONALD FERGUSSO:q having been particu larly alluded to by the lion. Secretary for the Colonial Department, wished to repeat the state ment he had made on a former occasion, relative to the salary of General Creig, who was Mili tary Governor of the Cape of Good Hope in the year 1796.. lie said tlwn, as he would say now, that that officer wrAle home a dispatch to Go vernment, saying that as no appointment had been made as to the amount-of the salary he was to - receive, he lad assigned unto himself, until his Majesty's pleasure Should the knOwn, the annual sum of 30001. Be - sides this he received, no emolument. lie levied none of the taxes which had been paid to the Dutch Governor : and as he (Sir R. r.) believed, though of this he was not sure, the 3000 x: included his pay as a General Qllicer.„...llp_believe4 that even at this distance of time he could bring the Gentle- . man Who was Secretary to General Creig to the bar of the House to proVe what he had stated. lie certainly thought three thousand pounds enough for the situation. And although the.nominal salary was now ten thousand pounds„ yet, h 2 was informed, that other perquisites en joyed by the Governor increased the actual surn to 20,000/. The income of a peace establishment at the Cape ought to rhaintain the whole military fOrce necessary - for that station. It was far from his wish that any Unnecessary reduct!o7 in the pay of Officers or soldiers should be made, for by connection he was attached to the army, though'he trusted he was still more attached to his country. The lion. Member then made .some allusions to Ahe state of the cavalry-, and objected to the formation of the regiments of lancers. — Our troops could not be converted into Poles, and he preferred their retaining the old English mode of fighting. Colonel WOOD defended the .cavalry from the reflections which had been cast upon them.— (No, no, from the Opposition.)—He considered that they were reflections. One Hon. Member (Mr. Home) had said that they were only fit for parade and show, and the Gallant General who spoke last seemed to consider them unnecessary. lie would call to mind the services which those troops had rendered to the country in that. hard foughten field which procured the peace of Eu rope. The Hon. Member then recounted.several of the heroic achievements of the different ca valry corps at the battle of Waterloo, and stated that Ruonaparte had declared: them, on that-oc casion, to be what cavalry ought to be, hut what he had never expected to see them. With re spect to the relieving troops at the West Indies, many regiments were there who had served under the great Commander that had led them through all the battles and victories of the Peninsula, and they 'were obliged immediately on returning from thence, to be sent Out to the stations they now occupied. The Honourable Member 'then read one of the items of the Esti mates which gave a pension to the widow of Col. hilt, whom he described as having died of the yellow fever, in consennence of taking the com mand of troops in the hospital at Jamaica,.when no other officer would enter it.' lle .asked the House, Whether,,to save such trifles as these, they would refuse to do an act of justice in supporting the widow of such a gallant man ?--(hear, hear!) Sir FEttnussoN explained. Sir R. Wrr.soN contended that the alterations in the cavalry equipments would render them inefficient if they should .be again called into the field. The Cape of Good Hope could be defended just as well by a force of 1200 infantry, and 300 cavalry, as by the present 2400 troops employed for that service. He believed that the Governor's situation was worth 18,000/. a year. Besides which, he was paid in hard money, and that produced a considerable increase, sometimes as much as 40 or 50 per cent. The lonian Islands ought not to be retained, inasmuch. as they were a source of 'expellee, and our K• ' •• • ' „ _ . possession' of them a cause of much jeaiousy among the Turks. No reginient o ought to reniafti in - the West more fool - years; if they did So the . theii•beanie indilerent to discipline; and were congeqUently very difficult to manage. 111:e nii.ntioneci the .case of a body of troops to the amount of` 9i rucn,c2-10 Of which recei Ved corporal punishment inconsequence of the laxityoNiscipline which had been produced by too ;Ong a stay in the Island a Jamaica; But.the great question was, what was the real necessary amoi,int of forces for England and Ireland: And. When. he saw the estiniates for that service to be ,18,004trien, it did appear lb hint to be a most imposing He thougl:t the Veteran 13attalionS better than the troops of the line for-many purposeS at home. And it I.(iuld be seen by the rettims, that the Veteran. Battalions cost two-thirds less than the regular troops of the line. A reginint of the -Veterin Battalion cost .6369.1. while the, pence of a regitnent of the line WoUld be 21,566/. It had been said, that it was Abso lutely necessary for the amount of troops fixed for the year to. be inserted in the Mutiny He admitted that the practice was usual, bUt he denied that it 'was indispensible. Supposing it should become uece„skau• _to raise 10,000 addi tional troops after-the supplies had been granted and the Bill passed, wotild the Noble Lord say, that. beCause they were not included in. the amount stated in the preamble of the Bill; the Act should not coffer those 10,000? if so, then a Bill of fndemnity was necessary for Ministqrs, on account of all corporal or other _punishment. inflicted upon any of t}iose additional troops which were raised last year. , Mr. Gour.nexiSi explained.—With respect to what had fallen from the Gallant General, as to the salary of the. Governor of the. Cape being 18,0001— he begged again to state, that it was only 10,0001. Sir R. WILSON asked if tlint was trot inde pendent of the military pay of the Governor ? Mr. erOULBURN.—Ten thousand pounds covers the whole salary, and pay of every kind. (Hear!) Er.aNs supported the amendment.—Sir H. VIVIAN explained. , General lI.A T said that no dilninution of the forces could be Made in Ireland, so long- as the present code of horrid Excise Laws existed in that Country.—(llear, hear !) Sir F. BLAKE made a few remarks in - favour of he amendment.--Sir It. WIL S ON explaipe.d. Arr. WILIA.A.ms rose amid,t loud cries of CC Question 7," and after proceeding for a short time in delivering his sentiments. complained of the noisy state of the House, which he considered to be indecent towards lain. The lion.lleher then expressed his determination to vote for the amendment. _Lord CASTLER F.AGII merely wished. to coll .thy attention of Members to• the exact number of troops which would be left by the .'Amendment, if carried, for the service of ihe*ConntrY. The amount provided by the original Resolution was 70,350 rank and file. • Then .the Amendment proposed a reduction of 10,000, leaving 60,350. In examinFno• t; , the returns. it would-he found that the different regiments short of their complement would: leave a .fUrther deficit df, 50004 thus bringing the. amount of disposable troops to 55,300. Then . they must deduct the Service of the old and now Colonies ; which he worad , state at 25,500, which, taken from the formeenumbeT . left 29,8.50.• Then, furth er , deducting the Guards and Cavalry 14,000, there Would remainll.s.Bso troops for the service of Great Britain and Ire land, and for the relief of- the- army abroad, amounting t 0.50,000 men. He would, put it to the House wiwther it was possible that — sue!) a force was equal to . the duties thus required. • Mr. CALcittr-r - said, that the NObie LOrd hid so palpably misstated the case, that he.was really surprised how he (Lord Castlereagh) could stake his character upon such a misstatement. The propOsition before the Ilotne was for a fOrce-'of 81;000 men, and the object of his lion. Friend Was to reduce that number by 10,00 Q, thus_leav ing 71,000. That was the proposition, and upon. thatilonourable Members would have to - give their vote. . Lord C VSTLEREIGfi atcl , that the Honnurable Member had suite mistaken• the ground upon which he rose to ma 4 his triumphant reply. —The only difference between them was a fraction. For - when he (Lord C. stated' the numbers of the original proposition to be:71,000, he distinctly said rank and file, and he • was per fectly aware that with the Officers 'it would amount to 81,000. He wished_ to ask the House, in the present state of the Country,, after aore duction of 10,000 had already been made, how they could be called on to reduce another 1.0,000 in the same year, and leave only 15,000 infantry for the service of the Country and for the relief of 50,000 men abroad. He only wished. Hon. Members to consider whether it was possible that the Government could be carried on with that number of troops. General G ASCO VNE and Mr.CALcitArr. mutual ly explained. - Lord PMMERSTON, in allusion to the men ne cessary for reliefs, stated ; that at this moment there were . 1,900 troops on their passage home from foreign stations, and 2;500 going This was' a practical illustratien of the argumentS he had laid down to prove .the necessity of allowing men for reliefs. Here were 5-100 actually afloat, while he had only computed the yearly average at 3006. The non-effectives at the present time also amounted to 3000, and recruits 2000, making upon the whole 900 men unfit for duty. It was said that the militia might he employed fur many purposes of domestic service. Now Hon . Gentlemen would see that by Law they. could not even be ordered out in aid of the civil force. • They could only be called out by Procramation• Mr. MACDO LD replied ;he contended that the Household Troops and Czy . alrl, as well as the Marines and Veteran E3attnlions, ought;to do the same seririce, and thus 66,000 troops would be unavailable :to the Country for that purpoie. lie felt that so strong a case hail, been made fa:•. a reduction of 10,000 men, that he should not do son.