The Sun. — London, England, 1836-03-09 00:00:00

PAPER DUTIES. Mr. WALLACE presented a petition praying far an alte ration in the duties on paper. He hoped, after %%hat had fallen a few evenings ago from the Chancellor of the Exchequc on 'this subject, that some favourable change wool ,1 shortly take place. Dr. BOWR LNG presented a petition from Port Glasgow on the same subject, and with a similar prayer. COUNTY RATES. Mr. GORDON presented a petition, mast respectably and nume..ously tigned by the owners and occupiers of land in the county of Stafford, praying_ for some alteration i n the manage ment of comity rates. Under present circumstances he thought some change desirable, and that the rate-pavers should have a- share in the distribution of the money levied olf them. They thought that the magistrates could not properly at.: tend to the fiscal business of the country with a due regard to their other duties. It was stated in the petition what be (Mr. Gordon) could not agree with, that a proper regard mg Lot had to economy in Staffirdshire, but he would limit that, in consequence of the erection of a gaol, and the necessary repairs of several bridges, the rates were lately higher than before. He sliould reserve any furth:r observa- tio.)s on this subject till the motion of the Hon. Member for Middl ese x, which stood in the order list for this evening, was before the House. An HoN. MEMBER on the Ministerial benches made some observatio - s, but in s ) low a tone as to be totally inaudible in the Gallery. Mr. H.UME said although the notice which he had given at the commencement of the Session stood for this evening, rela ting to the establishment of Boards for the Management of County Rates, yet he would not feel warranted in bringing it forward, as he deemed it of importance that, the adjourned debate on the Irish Corporate question should be allowed to proceed, and be brought to a conclusion. - He would therefore move, on Thursday, the 21st April, for leave to bring in a Bill to enable the inhabitants of Middlesex to manage their own affairs.—( Hear, hear.) An HoN. Mamma expressed his concurrence in the objects of the Bill referred to by the Hon. Member for Middlesex. He thought the pe)lle were entitled to the management of their own money. :VICTUALLERS' LICENSES. Mr. BAIreL AY presented a petition from the Licensed Victuallers, complaining of the extra fifty per cent. which had been imposed on Licenses. STATE OF THE LAW IN SCOTLAND. Doctor BO WRING presented two petitions, one on the ate of the law of real property, and the other on the general state of the law. The Commissioners prayed for an alteration in the existing system. The Han. Member also presented a pe tition in favour of the reduction of the tax upon knowledge. An HON. MEMBER moved that Mr. Crawford, the Mem ber for the city of London, be added to the London and Brighton Railway Committee. Mr. HUME begged to ask whether the Hon. Member bad given notice of his motion ? The question having been answered in the negative, Mr. HUME protested against the name of any Member being added without notice. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. Their Lordships requested to be furnished with a copy of the evidence taken before the Committee on Orange Lodges. —Agreed to. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND)...- ADJOURNED DEBATE. The Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned Debate on the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) having been read, The SPEAKER then read the amendment moved by Lord F. Egerton as an instruction to the Committee. Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN would not have ventured to take part in the present debate, if he had not felt that it was a ques tion of vital importance to the interests of Ireland, and that it would tend to promote the peace and tranquillity of that country, and the well-being and satisfaction of the community at large. It was for these reasons that, as an Irish Member, he was prepared to reject the amendment of the Noble Lord—( Hear, hear)—and he was most anxious to point out the consequences that would result from its adoption. Although the present state of the Irish Corporations had been fully illustrated by the Right Hon. the Attorney-General for Ireland in the able and powerful speech in which he had moved the second reading of the Bill, yet he (Mr. O'B.) felt it was the duty of every Irish Member to confirm these statements so far as lay in his power. He should, therefore, illustrate the state of Limerick and Ennis, two of the Corporations with which be was acquainted. The House was aware that Li merick was a great thriving commercial city, contain ing a population of 60,000, and the Corporation was composed of a Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Coun cil, who had no sympathy with the people, and were nominated by a Noble Lord, who did not even reside in the country. He did not mean to speak of that Noble Lord with any other feelings than those of respect ; bat it was well known that he had alarge family interest in that city—that he nominated all the members of the Corporation—and that there was a tacit engagement entered into at the time of their accepting office that they would, on all occasions, support the views of the patron, and it was never known that any one of them had said no to it. He appointed the mayor, bailiffs, and all the other corporate officers, and there were va luable sinecures connected with the Corporation which were of course given to Members of the Noble Lord's own family.—(Hear, hear.) In Ennis, the Corporation had a revenue of 5,0001., which they had used for the purpose of defeating . the just claims of the inhabitants to the franchise of freemen. The Corporation was an exclusive one, and he believed there was not a single Catholic a mem ber of it_aad not only were they excluded, but all the most respectable merchants of the town.—( Hear.) In Limerick the patron of the borough had the appointment of Town Grand Juries, in whom was vested the appro priation of assessments to the amount of 6,0001. a year. The case of Limerick ought to be looked at, and as to Ennis, there was no Municipal authority there. He hoped Government was prepared to do all that was required upon the subject, and would establish that principle which was dear to every Englishman.—( Cheers.) Mr. R. PLUNKET thought the statements put forth by the Hon. Member were totally without foundation.—( Hear. ) The Hon. Member for Dublin, when ho returned to his native country, as he (Mr. Plunkett) thought he would shortly have occasion to do, could not have the satisfaction of stating, as he told his hearers at the meeting which he last addressed before leaving the Irish shores, that the destruction of the Irish Corporations had been effected ; he could not con gratulate his hearers assembled round the bonfires to be illu minated on the occasion, and exhilirated, no doubt, by copious libations of mountain dew, that the institutions of the country were annihilated. With what feelings must the Protestant subjects of his Majesty behold such assemblies of Ribbon men, who had not yet attained the rank of Members of Parliament—( Hear, hear, hear)—as it was known some Members of this House were connected with that illegal asso ciation. ~.....,.... Several Members here called the Hon. Gentleman to order, and there were loud cries of " Name, name." Mr. 11 UME said he roso to order. No Member had a right to make an assertion to the effect that Members of that House belonged to an illegal Association, without stating the names of those to whom he alluded. Mr. PL UNK ET said that the words he had used wire that Honourable Members had been connected with Rib bon Associations ; and he also added, that he could riot say that there were not now in the House Members connected with it. The Hon. Member went on to state that he had received a petition from the Corporation of Drogheda against the Bill. As this petition was prepared and signed on the 19th February it was clear that it could not have been suggested from that side of the House. The Attorney. General for Ireland - had made his accusation against the Corporation of Drogheda, founded upon this Report. First, that they had improperly disposed of the funds of the Corporation ; and next, that they were an exclusive and sectarian body. Now, with respect to the first of those charges, it was notorious, as the petitioners stated, that the Attorney-General had greatly over rated the value of the Corporation property, for he gave to the Corp ration the present value upon it, which, in point of fact, was not received by them, but by those persons to whom the pro perty was let, and who had improved it. The whole of the land belonging to the Corpoation was only 1,620 acres, and if let at 31. an acre it would not produce the sum which the At torney-General had alleged to have been misapplied. As to the misapplicatioa, it was totally denied. With respect to the sectarian illiberality of the Corporation, it was best answered by the fact that when Corporation property was to be: let or otherwise disposed of, it was exposed to general competition, without regard to who might become the purchaser, or to what sect or religion he might belOng, except so far as as they were restricted by the express terms of their char ter. They could act in no other way until the charter was restored, and it was, therefore, most unfair in the Commis sioners to censure them on this ground. But he ought not, perhaps, to feel much surprise upon this point, when he agcy that this Commission was very differently constituted from all others with which he was acquainted. The Commissioners appointed for ascertaining the number of the Protestants and the Roman Catholic population of Ireland were impartially chosen. Some of them were Englishmen and some Irishmen, all of whom were in every way qualified by their characters and talents for the duties of the situation to which they had been appointed. The Poor Law Commissioners also were e e ry properly chosen, and all unobjectionable men ; but he regretted to say that he could not pronounce the same opinion upon all the members of this Corporation Commission. The principal, or at least the most active, of these Commissioners was a Mr. Baldwin , who, for the most part, was left to do all the business of the Commission, unaided and uninterrupted by the attendance of the other Co:nmissioners, his colleagues. He did not know if this Mr. Baldwin was the gentleman of that n ame w ho represented the city of Cork, but, if so, he un derstood the Hon. Gentleman was more celebrated for making speeches upon the power of 10-gun brigs t o blockade Ireland than or his information upon municipal rights, or Corporation in terests. He had risen solely for the purpose of p uttin g before the House hi s opinion, that it would be better in e v ery p oint of view to abolish the present Corporations altogether, than to establish any other in their stead under the present Bill: Mr. V. STUART said that, as this was his first time of addressing the House, he had much need of its indulgence, while he ventured to make a few observations upon the im portant measure now under consideration.—( Cheers.) He owed a ebt of gratitude and th an k s to his Majesty's MinisteraiViiie rse they had p ursue d on t h e present oc casion. ForstiAj a ng introduced the Bill, calculated, as it was, to give.- s-a,tisraaktur to the Irish people ; and next, for their, unco mpromising - position to the a men d ment o f t h e Nia)le Lord'oppositei Cheers.) Could any Hon. Member 4 fail ,to see that the.arne ment of the Noble Lord was nothinr. 0.14 - 6' than. a direct . i:t' ma on the Catholics of Ireland?— ("Cheers.) 'He courd-tell the Noble Lord that if he felt for Ireland and the Trial; people that interest which he had professed the night, Wore in his speech he would have done a raorai_hattar service to that country. and earned for him. - self more of the gratitude of that people, had he, when he was Secretary for that part of the empire, introduced a similar measure to the present Bill, rather than have lent the aid of his name, character, and_ station, to the upholding of Pro testant a scendancy.—(Cheers.) But, no ; so long as Protestant ascendancy was to be maintained, and so long as oppression and injustice were to be the governing rule for Ireland, so long was it the political interest of the Noble Lord, and those with whom he acted, to preserve the old sys tce-n, and not only not to abolish corporations, as be now pro posed, but to leave their abuses unredressed.—( Loul cheers.) He had given to all the arguments that had bee.a brought for ward in opposition to the present Bill the closest attention, and the best consideration that he could command, and he saw in them nothing that affected in the slightest degree the princi ple of the measure. The objections which had been urged were in his mind applicable only to the details, and, lie thought, had much better have been reserved for the committee than ad vanced at the present stage of the proceedings.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Lefroy) had said that he did not know what the principle of the present Bill was; but that, as far his own views went upon that part of the subject, he was decidedly hostile to the system of self-election. Now, if the Hon. and Learned Member was hostile to the principle of self-election, he ought to support this Bill, Tor one of the most prominent provisions was to destroy that principle—(Cheers)—and if the Hon. and Learned Member did not know what the Bill contained, as he professed, was it not possible that he might find its other pro visions equally worthy of his support as its destruction of the principle of self-election?—(Cheers..) As to the power which it was said the present Bill was calculated to throw into the hands of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin (Mr. O'Connell) and the Catholic clergy, he was not prepared, he confessed, to ground any argument on a bare assertion like this; but, supposing the assertion to be true, would not that, he confidently asked, be an additional argument in favour of the measure ?—( Cheers.) Could it be doubted by any per son who had attended to the modern history of Ireland that any stigma or insult (dared at the present moment to the Irish nation would give great additional and increased power to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman alluded to ?—( Cheers.) Was not the Amendment of the Noble Lord, then, directed to con vey the one and to increase the other ? Did it not stigmatize the Roman Catholic population of Ireland as unworthy of being intrusted with power ; and did it not by that very de. nunciation give a vast increase to the influence and power of the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin ? But what, on the other hand, was the Bill of his Majesty's Mi nisters calculated to accomplish ? Why, it was designed and calculated above all other measures to conciliate the people of Ireland, and thus disarm the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin of the alarming power he now possessed. _ He said alarming, because it could not be otherwise thaw fearful to see a state of things existing in any country as could give such powers as that Hon. and Learned Member possessed into the hands of any private'individual. As to the Catholic Clergy, he could not see any power which the present Bill gave to them which they did not possess already. He thought, on the contrary, that the Bill would deprive them of their present influence in a po litical sense ; it would allay that fever and irritation upon po litical subjects which now prevailed amongst all classes, clergy as well as laity ; and be felt justified in predicting that this measure would have the effect of taking the sting out of all disposition to evil in either class.—( Cheers.) Before he sat down, he would entreat the House not to be scared from its propriety • by gloomy predictions and frightful images that had been foreboded and conjured up by the Hon. Members on the other side of the House. Those Hon. Gentlemen were like the sailors in pursuit of the phantom ship, who thought of nothing but looking forward until they struck upon a rock.—( Cheers.) He hoped those Gentlemen might es cape the rocks towards which they were heedlessly steering their course ; but, should it be otherwise decreed, he hoped at least that they alone would be the victims of their false pride, and that, should they sink, those on his (Mr. Stuart's) side of the House might not accompany them into the abyss.— (The Hon. Member sat down arnid loud cheering.) Mr. G. KNIGHT felt it his duty to give his most cordial support to the amendment of the Noble Lord near him, He had occasion to sec that the English Municipal Bill had not worked with such complete success as had been anticipated, how could it possibly be expected that a similar measure could work well in Ireland? He did. not think that it would be for the welfare of Ireland to destroy 120 long-existing commu nities in that country, and to remodel them according to this Bill. Would to God that England and Ireland were on an equal footing, and that Ireland was as well prepared for altera tions in her institutions as England was ; but, alas it was not so. Ireland was divided into two great . political parties, and everything in that country was looked at with a political view. For his part be was not disposed to place political power in the hands of either of those parties. He would not plant the heel of the Roman Catholic on the neck of the Protestant ; and nei ther would he plant the heel of the Protestant on the neck of the Catholic. He should not like to see Orange lodges abo lished one day and Catholic Corporations established the next. —(Cheers.) He was for a rigid and impartial administration of the law. If this were a measure calculated to relieve the people of Ireland from want or misery he would view it in a very different light ; but would it in any degree lessen the state of beggary in which they at present unhap pily existed ? Certainlk, not. It would only leave them still a more easy prey to designing demagogues. The pre sent was a question upon which a man of talent, indepen dence, and integrity, must think of nothing but his country. All they ought to hold most valuable was at stake. He dreaded that at one time or other some mistake of this kind would break up his connection with Ministers and drive him from the opposite side of the House. He could no longer enjoy peace of mind, did he not find himself seated where be was. —( Chteri.) Mr. ORD would direct his attention more particularly to the speech delivered last night by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, the Member for Launceston (Sir H. Hardinge.) He stated at the outset that his experience last year before the Intimidation Committee would not allow him to come to the conclusion that the Roman Catholic clergy did not exer cise political influence on religious grounds. The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer, therefore, came to the conclusion that the Irish people were disqualified from properly exercising poli tical rights, inasmuch as they were strenuous sectarians. Now, the Right lion. Baronet himself was present when the evi dence upon which he relied was given. He had also, as he informed the House, perused it since with attention. How, then, could it have happened that he read only some parts, which favoured his own views, and entirely omitted others ? ( Hear.) He read, for instance, some parts which releted to Father Keogh, and which were proved by the reporter. But he ought at the same time to have stated that they were dis avowed by Father Keogh himself. Even had Father Keogh actually used the language attributed to him, his disavowal of it was a proof that lie felt such sentiments were not agreeable to the prevailing feeling of the Irish people. This would be some proof that the state of Ireland, as regarded the influence of the clergy, was not such as it was represented by the Right Hon. Gentleman. One more instance, for the purpose of showing the spirit in which the Gallant Officer made his 'ex tracts for the purpose of supporting his cause. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that on a recent election for Clonmel, a Gentleman of high respectability, a Quaker, who was in the habit of giving employment to no less than one thousand persons, was shamefully attacked and most grossly abused, because he gave his vote far Mr. Bagwell. But parts of the evidence which had a bearing the other way, and which showed the motives for this attack, were entirely omitted. [Here the Hon. Gentleman read an -extract from the cvi dance of Mr. Fitzgerald, a magistrate, stating that this Gen tleman, in consequence of having voted for Mr. Bagwell, was most grossly used, having been hooted by the populace and pelted with mud, though the town was much indebted to him, as he gave employment to 1,000. persons. He became on this account an object of popular execration, and was called a mad dog, and all this because he voted jot as he liked. On the same day his son had two bull-dogs set upon him while he was riding on horseback through the streets.] Sir J. GRAHAM—Why do you not read the passages re lating to the Roman Catholics ?—( Cheers and laughter from the Opposition benches.) Mr. 0 D. could see the spirit in which that observation was made by the Right Hon. Baronet, and he should not for get it when they met again " over the border." He read this part of the evidence the more particularly, because it was upon this the argument of the Right lion. and Gallant Officer was founded last night. He did not read the part alluded to, because the Gallant Officer himself read it last night, and impressed it upon them as forcibly as he could. The House would now permit him to read other parts of it. That which had been referred to last,night by the Gallant Officer was meant to prove that the outragas in this case were committed and encouraged upon religious grounds. What was the evidence of Mr. Loobie, a person who had been in the employment of this Quaker Gentleman, who was so strong an advocate for voting as he pleased, in the way his conscience dictated ? Mr. Loobie's evidence was upon re cord. Mr. Ronayne, the other candidate asked him for his vote, when Loobie said that his voting on that side would be fatal to him. He voted, however, for Mr. Ronayne, and he was instantly dismissed.—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Now, if such was the character of Mr. Malcolmson, this Quaker gentleman who held fast to his own right of voting in the way he thought best, while lie denied the same privilege to others, and dismissed them from his employment, because they voted as their consciences dictated, was it to be wondered at that this excited the of the people ? The Gallant Officer opposite ( Sir 11. Hardinge) read only the direct evi dence of Mr. Fitzgerald, the magistrate ; but what did that gentleman say on his cross•examination ? He was asked whether the ill-usage of Mr. Malcolmson might not have arisen from his conduct to Loobie? His answer was, that he thought he heard Mr. Malcolmson say so. He believed the only cause of Loobie having been dismissed was his having voted contr it a f, r riat y a t l i o th tl s ienishes of his employer.—(Cheers from twhoendeMrfinulisebenches.) particular p Nor er ocdo,utl there e riat wasbe a strongdeemed feel i the lu g ees y toi produced mraenga shoulde Orangeman a Governmentaam nveh o ab n dege been e the e Roman n powerfullyl appointed ov e Catholics erxac them,imteexcited, of Ireland, that g b w s ty lin r a e wteh there eha was anoto at Govern ment which did not disavow, if they did not actually en courage, the crusade which it was endeavoured to raise against the people of Ireland under the cry of " No Popery." The Hon. Gentlemen Opposite stood quietly by if they did not encourage the cry, with the honoureble exception of the No ble Lord (Stanley). When it appeared that this vile attempt had totally failed, they then very coldly denied that they had any participation in it. Because such feelings were excited in Ireland under circumstances, was that a reason why the people were now to be deprived of their rights ? If argu ments of this kind were to be pushed to the extreme, perhaps they might be -employed with equal plausibility in this coun try—they might be urged so far as even to call for a repeal of the Reform Bill itself. It was not in such a way as this that the difficulties of Ireland were to be dealt with. The plan THR SUN, LONDON, AV_EDNESDAY, MARCH 9, 136', proposed on the opposite side of The 11 Jtri'e was entirely destructive of Irisf, Corporations. Now he would put it to the Hen. Gentlemen whether such a proposition had not some tendency to interfere with the prerogative of the Crown, with the power of granting charters of incorporation ? If the pre rogative of the Crow❑ in this respect was not to be restricted the plan of Hon. .Members opposite might prove nugatory ; for, after the present Corporations were entirely put an end to, as now proposed, whit was to prevent the Crown the very next week from reviving them, and placing them on the very s ime footing on which it was proposed by this Bill to place them Ilea*, hear.) If such might be the effect, he could not help. expressing his surprise that such a proposition should come from such a quarter. Mr. M. J. O'CO NS ELL said that, so far as the debate hail hitherto gone, the real merits of the question were scarcely touched upon. It had been said that the county of Kerry election was made a religioua question. Now, this was disproved by the letter of a Roman Catholic Nobleman ( Lord Kenmare), which was read last night by the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer himself ( Sir H. Hardinge.) He must say that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin ( Mr. Lefrov) did not seem better ac quainted with the subject of population, an related to this Bill, in Ireland, than the ihn. and Gallant Officer did with its loca li:ies. He said that in the English Reform Bill the average population of the places in schedule C was 5,743. Now, he looked at schedule C, both in the English Bill and this, and he found that in the former the average population fell short by three hundred and thirty of the population of schedule Cin this Bill. The Learned Gentleman mentioned par. ticularly Middleton and Belturbet. Now, in the English Act there were two places, South Wold and Kendal (as we understood), the population in the former being only 1,942, in the otlitr 1,875, far short of the population of Middleton or of Belturbet. In the English Bill, Romford, with a popula tion. of 6,112, Malmesbury, with a population of 3, 000 , and Sutton Colfield, with a population of 3,618, were struck out. He would not go further into details. The great question was, would they extend to Ireland the same principle that was considered so valuable in England ?—( Hear, hear.) Much was said of the strength of party feelings in Ireland, and the Hon. Gentleman who spoke in the course of the debate (Mr. G. Knight) said he was greatly influenced by this considera tion. But was this new? Were riot those feelings as strong in 1832 as they were now ? In a speech delivered in the Sea. sion of 1832 it was said—" Justice demands that, out of the Church property in Ireland, the ministers of the national re ligion should receive a provision as well as the Protestant clergyman. There is not in Europe such .a monster as the Protestant Establishment in Ireland."—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. M. O'Connell) believed that the existing corporate system was almost as great a monster, " and I can never believe that, whatever strength the Government may derive from the assis tance of such an instrument, it can be compared with the faci lities which may be afforded by a more equitable system."_ (The reading, of the extract was received with loud cheers from the Opposition benches.) He (Mr. M. O'Connell) had read this, not for the mere purpose of obtaining a cheer at the expense of the Hon. Member, but because it afforded an explanation of the real state 7of the question as affected Ire land. As long as a real grievance existed there this state of party animosity would exist also ; and the question was, how should the party disputes be put an end to—by continuing the grievance, or by affording justice to the people ? It was said that the Irish people were not yet in a fit state to be trusted with that for which they sought ; but that was the usual argu ment of tyranny against the restoration of liberty.—( Hear.) It had equally been used as an argument against the abolition of negro slavery.—( Hear.) H, - ; hoped and trusted that the House would enter into the feelings of the Irish people—that they would show by a triumphant majority that they were de termined to extend to Ireland the same principle and the same measure which had already been adopted for England ; that the representatives of the English people would show that they considered the people of Ireland as equally entitled to justice with themselves ; and that as Ireland has already had more than her fair share of that corporate corruption which had prevailed in both countries, she would - at least have a fair share in the measure of justice and reform.—(Cheers from the Mi nisterial benches.) Mr. E. TENNENT observed that the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ireland was unquestionably calculated to effect a vast alteration in the existing system; nay, further, were it indispensable to con tinue corporations at all, it was, in his (Mr. E. Tennent's) opinion; in many particulars, a material improvement upon them. But the question which now agitated the country was not confined to so narrow a compass—it was not restricted to a mere inquiry into what extent of improvement the old corpo rations were susceptible of. The broad important question was this—are the corporations worth repairing at all ? Are they institutions which are worth preserving, and which, under any modification, are suited to the present state of society in Ireland?—(Hear, hear.) He was only anxious, if the House would grant him its attention for a few minutes, to take up that portion of the subject which referred to the machinery of the Bill itself, and to explain his reasons for thinking that a corporate system, such as the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ire land proposed to introduce, was unsuited to the purposes for which it was intended. It would be useless and cumbrous, as regarded the smaller towns of Ireland, and injurious as regarded the interests and prcperity of the larger ones.— (Hear, hear.) In his opinion, the inquiry which the House should apply itself to was this—whether it would not be wise to deliver the towns of Ireland from the antiquated system of Corporations altogether, and to leave them, for their munici pal government, to the adoption of such measures as the local necessities and the more enlightened policy of modern times might recommend.—( Hear, hear, hear.) There did not seem to him to be anything rash or unwarrantable in such an investigation. The results of experience in every town and city in the empire, and the different circumstances of places in which Corporations had or had not existed, justified in every way the propriety of entertaining such an inquiq. Throughout the whole contents of the elaborate and volumi nous reports of the Commissioners of Corporation Inquiry he had been unable to discover one instance in which the pros perity or the inercased wealth and resources of any one town was attributed to the existence or influence of the corporate system, however modified—(Hear, from both sides of the House)—whilst not only in England but in Ireland we had abundant example of cities rising to the utmost pitch of prosperity and importance without having once possessed either in name or in substance a trace of corporate govern ment.—( Hear, hear.) Manchester, and Birmingham, and Westminster were overwhelming instances in England : and in Ireland no more irresistible example could be adduced of a town rising into eminence and wealth without the slightest aid from a Corporation than the town which he (Mr. E. Ten nant) had the honour to represent—the town of Belfast.— (Cheering from the Opposition benches.) Although a Cor poration still exists in name in Belfast, no functions of any description can be possibly said to have been discharged by it for nearly half a century; and yet during that same period it must be well known to the House that no town in the empire has advanced with more rapid strides to importance and afflu ence. He had thought it necessary to mention these facts with regard to the Corporation of Belfast, as well in order to show that such institutions were not by any means essential to the prosperity of towns as because that, as well in the discus sions which had taken place in that House on the question as in its agitation out of doors, the instance of Belfast hail always been dragged in as a pitiable example of a fine town oppressed and harassed by the operation of corporate abuses. In the report of the Commissioners it was adduced in three or four several places as an illustration of exclusive monopoly as to privileges, and of the ends of self-election as to officers. The late Attorney-General for Ireland, in the speech in which he introduced his Bill for Corporation Reform last year, had feelingly alluded to the fact of there being, out of the whole population of 50,000 or 60,000, but six freemen to be dis covered in Belfast. Whether even so many as six were to be found there he could not really tell, for he had never heard of one ; but this he could attest, that be never in his life had heard the remotest complaint from any individual of his being excluded from that honour.—( Hear, hear.) What, in fact, in such a state of things as he ( Mr. Tenncnt) had described, was any individual to gain by being admitted to freedom? No thing in the world. There were neither privileges nor im munities to enjoy ; neither patronage nor property to share— ( Hear, hear)—and the inhabitants, with all these rights, on a perfect equality, and all their interests in their own guar- dianship, allowed the old Corporation to ,expire without a regret or a murmur.—(Hear, hear, hear.) And now as to the system of municipal Government by which it teas governingl t T ie tolls prope ofr property the o su perseded, and which so a mply att es t e d i n acti on t h e prac ticability of a large c ommunity themsel ves an d managing their ()an affairs without any Corpo ra ti on, either on the antiquated or the modern model. With the ma nagement of corporate property the town had no concern, having inn,g amounting no corporate to about iirop e property a year, manage; wereT Lord Donegal, and by him conferred along with the office of chief magistrate, of which he holds the patronage. The only public property of any kind which they had once possessed were some charitable bequests in money, which being left in trust to the Corporation had disappeared about twenty years ago, and a suit was at present pending in Chancery with a view to discover the mode of their appropriation. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, had in his speech last night declared the principle on which the towns of Ireland were to be included or omitted in the schedules of the Bill to be the conjoint possession of a corporate charter and corporate pro perty. And, after showing to him that the town of Belfast had no other corporate property than a Chancery suit, and neither functions nor privileges as a Corporation, he surely would not refuse to redeem his pledge of la3t night, to expun ge it from the Bill. With the administration of justice the Corporation had no exclusive concern, the Chief Magistrate for the time being generally holding the commission of the peace for the ad jacent counties of Down and Antrim, and acting at quarterly and petty sessions in conjunction with the other county magis trates resident in the town ; but as head and representative of the Corporation he exercised no exclusive jurisdiction be yond superintendence of the markets and the licensing of public amusements, duties which would equally well devolve on the officers of police. The administration of justice, therefore, was altogether in the hands of the usual authorities —the magis trates appointed by the Crown. Complaints, the Commis sioners stated in their report, bad reached them of partiality in its dispensation ; but these, they said, were probably exagge rated by party feelings. At all events, if any cause for them ever existed, he (Mr. Tennent) hoped it was now removed ; at least, if it was not, the fault did not rest with the Irish Go vernment, who had lately taken the matter into their own hands, and appointed four magistrates of their own exclu sive 'selection, two of them without the approbation of the Lord Lieutenant of the county, and two others, he (Mr. Tennent) believed, without complying with the exploded ce remony of asking it.—( Hear.) Nothing in the present Bill seemed to him half so objectionable as the carelessness and laxity with which it seemed to provide for the administration of justice. The dignity of a magistrate was actually less anxiously provided for than that of the lowest citizen on the burgh roll. In order to entitle an inhabitant of one of the towns of Ireland to that distinction, he must be possessed of a residence in the borough of the annual value of at least 51. Ridiculous as such a sum iai ht seem as a test of respectabi lity for a borough, even that paltry qualification was dispensed with for a magistrate.—( Hear, bear.) Nay, more, he was not required to be even resident in the town ; so that literally under this Bill a mendicant, without a home or a shilling,, was eli,2ible to take his scat upon the bench as a guardian of the public peace.—( Hear, hear, and " Oh, oh," from the Ministe rial side of the House.) A grand juror under another clause was admissible, on the panel with no other qualification than the possession of a 5/. house. And now as to the mode in which other municipal functions of. the town were discharged in Belfast, independently of a corporation. These consisted there, as elsewhere, of duties connected with the health of the inhabit ants, such as paving, lighting, and cleansing, of the supplying the town with water, and of looking after the preservation and improvement of the harbour. For these several purposes the town had three local Acts of Parliament, which enabled all the inhabitants, paying a certain rate of police-tax, to elect annually from themselves three Boards of Commissioners to conduct their affairs. The Police Committee was chosen under one of these by householders paying 20/. annual rent ; the Water Commissioners by a still lower assessment ; and the Ballast Board by those most interested—the shipowners, the anchor-merchants, and iron-masters. There are, then, three bodies popularly chosen from the mass of the inhabi tants, who have, in every instance, the assessment, the col lection, and the expenditure of the funds raised for muni cipal purposes, and amounting to about 17,000/. per an num; and, being thus themselves participators in the bur thens they impose, interested in the duties they discharge, and amenable to popular scrutiny and opinion for their these several departments are conducted with a care, an economy, and an efficiency which cannot be ques tioned, and which cannot be surpassed by any corporate system, however elaborate or ingenious. The Commissioners in their printed Report, whilst they recommend a less complex machinery in one department, have in no one case discovered or recorded any instance of inordinate expense, or improper expenditure, or of imperfect operation. And all this the House will observe is performed without any connection with the Corporation ' • yet Belfast is certainly the most pros perous, peaceful, and improving town in Ireland.—( Hear.) It was not to be wondered at, then, that. the town of Belfast, thus efficiently governed by a system of its own adoption, the offspring of its own wants, and the result of its own expe rience, should feel a just alarm at the prospect of having its municipal regulations, the growth of half a century, wrested from it, for the purpose of forcing back upon it the old and antiquated corporate system which it had repudiated and re jected fifty years before.—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposi tion," and " Oh, oh," from the Ministerial benches.) Besides, in such a proceeding the operation of the measure would ab solutely falsify the very principle on which it professes to be founded. That principle is declared to be the placing of the corporations on a more ample basis, and the extension of po pular influence and popular controul in the manasrement of these affairs. By the schedule appended to the Bill it appears that Belfast is to be provided with thirty common councilmen, who arc to have entrusted to them the management of its police, paving, lighting, and watching ; of its charitable trusts ; and, in short, of all its internal and local interests. Now, these interests are at present watched over by a variety of Boards, elected as he had already mentioned, and comprising, one with another, between 140 and 150 pur sons. The functions of the entire of these individuals were forthwith to be superseded for the purpose of conso lidating their labours in the thirty common councilmen to be elected under this Bill ; and yet this, they were told, was to be regarded as widening the basis of political privi leges and popular controul.—(Hear, hear.) The persons at present attached to public functions in Belfast had their duties so accurately defined, and their labours so minutely subdivided, that no one board, nor one individual, could be said to possess anything deserving the name of patronage, or influence, or profft from his office. But the case would be widely different when they had concentrated in thirty individuals not only the whole functions, authorities, and powers which were at present vested in so many persons; but likewise the new patronage created by this Bill—the amintment of mayors, treasurers, clerks, and corporate officers—the choice of sheriffs, coroners, and salaried police magistrates—the elections of commissions, committees. and constables—as well as the granting of licenses, and fixing the amount of annual taxation for the whole com munity.—(Hear.) Offices endowed with such powerful influ ence would no longer be regarded as matter of indifference, not merely from their political importance, but from their actual and substantial value. Elections would no longer be, as they were at present, matters of careless nomination or of indifferent moment. They would have the contests for office set about in right earnest ; labour, and time, and entreaty, would be devoted to the canvass, proportioned to the importance of the appoint ment, and the elections for common-councilmen in every borough would be even keener and bitterer conflicts than those for Parliamentary representatives, inasmuch as the spur of self-interest would be added to the ambition ,of patty triumph. What, he.would ask, in the midst of these turmoils and strifes, was to become of the peace and tranquil lity, and union of society ? And in trading and commercial towns, how would the time, and attention, and passions of the people be engrossed ? It could scarcely be possible that Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House, who represented commercial constituencies, and who were disposed to vote for the Bill had examined its provisions,' and understood tho roughly what it was that they were about to inflict upon the trading towns in Ireland.—( Hear.) , Party might well indeed be said to be the madness of the many for the gain of the few, if the population of well-ordered towns were once to be in duced to enter with full spirit into the endless proceedings which such a measure would institute. The consequences in any case must inevitably be greater, that men abandon their private business to ruin themselves by their attendance upon local politics —or else that people will shortly grow weary of such incessant and hopeless broils, and that the municipal elections will fall altogether into the hands of the idle and the restless, who have no other occupation, and deserve no higher command.—( Hear.) lie should conclude by repeating his entire conviction that the carrying of such a Bill for Ireland would be the cause of the most serious injury to the kingdom at large, and would entail inevitable mischief on the peace and' prosperity of every commercial and mnufacturing community in the country.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) Mr. BARRON thought the lion. Member could not have read the Bill very attentively, or he would not have indulged in more than one mis-statement. The Hon. Member had al lowed it to be inferred that under this Bill the magistrates would be appointed by the town councils. He (Mr. Barron) begged to inform the House that this was not the case, but that the appointment of magistrates was taken by it from the close Corporations, and given to the Crown. In this respect the Irish differed from the English Bill, as originally passed last year. The Hon. Gentleman had also said, that the con trol of the Courts of Justice would be vested in the new Cor porations. This was also in contradiction to the provisions of the Bill. The Hon. Gentleman found fault with the Bill be cause, forsooth, the Corporations were to continue to be called by. the same name. But if he had such a hatred—a hatred, be it remembered, that was new-born in the lion. Gentleman and his friends on the opposite side of the House—to these civic monopolies, why not substitute for Corporation some other word, which would be more congenial to his and their notions of propriety ? So shocking did the very name " Corporation" appear to be to the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that they could not even bear the sound. For his part he would, with all his heart, say do away with it altogether; but he could not at the same time help exclaiming, with respect to their conduct on the present occasion, " Oh, it smells rank."—( Great laughter. ) Why, was it not evident that the Hon. Gentleman argued more against the use of the word " corporation" than against this Bill. Now, if it so plea se d t h e H on . Gentleman, lie ( Mr- Barron) had no objection whatever to let the word be abo lished altogether; for they all knew that , c a rose"—( Peals of laughter, and cries of " Oh, oh.") Well, he would go no fur ther.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) If they did not wish the civic body to be called " corporations," they might, if they liked, give them a new name. Let them be called commis sioners, or anything else they pleased. He supposed that it was not the intention of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite to . limit the powers of the authorities which he proposed to con stitute for the good government of the towns to such trifles as lighting, paving, and cleansing. Did the Right Hon. Baronet forget that improvements were constantly required to be made in towns, or was it his intention to place all such local mat ters in the hands of commissioners, appointed by the Crown ? What would the Right Hon. Baronet who paid such reverence to everything that was ancient—the vindication of the institu tions of the country in Church and State—allow corporations to be swept away thus unceremoniously ? Oh I hear it not. Sooner would he submit to have his head severed from his body. —( Renewed laughter.) He would die rather ; but the thing was impossible, for the Right Hon. Baronet would never do anythine of the kind.—( Laughter.) Surely the asse rtor of the inchoate rights of freemen would never tolerate the aboli tion of mayors, aldermen, common councilmen, and all the other paraphernalia of corporations, and place the power which they exercised at the disposal of the Crown. This, indeed, would be unconstitutional doctrine, with a vengeance. There must, however, be some civil bodies appointed for the govern ment of towns under popular controul, and, if so, why should nut Ireland have corporations as well as England? Oh ! but it was aaid that Ireland should be deprived of the advantage of municipal governments, because party spirit ran so high at elections in that country. What I had party spirit never run high in any other place? Had nothing like party spirit been evinced in either England, Scotland, or even in Wales, on a recent occasion ? Did the Right Hon. Baronet forget that ho himself had been pelted with mud in the city of London ; and was it not a notorious fact that c abbage-leaves and other mis siles bad been seen flying about the hustings in Covent-garden as plentifully as at•any Irish election that ever taken place? These assertions about party spirit, therefore, were nothing more nor less than bugbears, used for the purpose of deluding the people of England.—( Hear.) It had, he knew, been stated by the Morning Post that the Irish Members who sat on that sidc of the House owed their return to brickbats and bludgeont An HON. MEMOR—No; it was the Times that said so. Mr. BARRON—WeII, they had been called "the brick bat and bludgeon Members ;" and every conflict, great or small, that bad taken place at any election in Ireland was blazoned forth not only in the newspapers, but in the Reports which had been placed upon the table of that House, for no other purpose but to create alarm in England, and, by that means prevent justice being done to Ireland. Discussion bad been stigmatised as agitation ; but lie cared not for that, because he knew that it was discussion—agitation, if they pleased—which had wrung from unwilling hands Catholic Emancipation, Reform, and the emancipation of the slaves in the Colonies, and which had still to drag from the opponents of this Bill the same measure of justice for the towns of Ire land which had been dealt out to the English and Scotch towns. If corporations were an object of desire to English towns, why should they not be to the towns of Ireland ? ( Ilear, hear. ) It was very well known that many of the large towns in this country had long anxiously wished for the advantages of such institutions, and, that being the case, could it be for a moment doubted that the privileges which corporations conferred were highly beneficial? He supposed, however, that it was because Ireland was a distant colony that she was to be refused justice ; bit! he should like to know if this was the way to maintain the Union between the two countries? 112 and others had been blamed by their consti tu3nts for preaching peace ; but if this Bill were rejected, how was it possible for them to do so any longer? In fact, it would render tham wholly powerless; and, their influence being gone, all they could do would be to retire from the country altogether. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to passages in the speeches of the Noble Lord (Stanley) the Member for Lancashire, to show that a change had taken place in his political sentiments, and concluded byobsrving that, as they allowed the Catholics of Ireland the privilege of voting for Members of Parliament, they should not deny them the right of taking part in the election of the officers of the municipalities of that country. Mr. CALLAGHAN and Mr. CLAY rose at the same time, but the former gave way. Mr. CL AY contended • that the arguments adduced by the Hon. Member for Belfast against the Bill would apply with equal effect to Corporations in general. They had admitted the people of Ireland to the same political privileges as the people of England by conferring upon them the Reform Bill. He did not think that they could now stop short, and refuse to that country the same right of self-government in the administration of local affairs which they had conferred upon the people of England. It was by conferring upon the people this right of self government that they best taught them how to respect them selves—to acquire habits of respect for the laws, and to com bine the greatest extension of personal freedom with respect for others, and a perfect respect for the rights of property. He was surprised that any British statesman—that any man con versant with history—should propose a scheme of local go vernment for one-third of the population of these kingdoms different from that which wes possessed by the remainder. _ _ (The Hon. Gentleman here referred to the work of M. de Tocqueville upon the democracy of America, in which the be neficial results of self-government in the administration of local affairs was clearly established.) It had been reserved for the Right Hon. Baronet to prove that the Irish people were not to have this right conferred upon them. But how did be prove this ? By showing the fear he entertained that the power which this measure would confer would be absorbed by a predominant majority, who would use that power tyrannically. But against the tyranny of a majority there was one protec tection, and that was in the general government of the coun try. If Ireland were governed by a republic, there might then be reason to apprehend the tyranny of a majority ; but whilst that country continued a portion of the empire, there would always be found a sufficient corrective in that House to repress any tyranny on the part of a majority, and to protdct the Pro testants of that country from any attempt at oppression on the part of the Roman Catholics. Sir J. GRAHAM was quite sure that the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin was himself so much a friend to freedom of discussion, so long as that discussion was confined within those rules which every Gentleman in that House was bound.to observe, that he would be the last to complain of any fair and frank allusions to that position connected with Ireland which he so peculiarly occupied. He ( Sir J. Graham), there fore, claimed the privilege of that indulgence which he would not intentionally abuse, namely, of alluding to the peculiar po sition of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, as well as such portions of his public conduct as he conceived it necessary to allude to, both as regarded what he had said and what he had done.—( Hear.) Before he proceeded further, he wished to disembarrass himself to a certain extent of some points which had already been adverted to, and on which there now seemed to exist very little difference of opinion. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had opened his speech upon a former night by considering the subject under three great heads, and the same view had been subsequently taken by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland. The first was the administration of justice as related to the Corporations ; secondly, the police ; and thirdly, the administration of cor porate property. If he understood what had fallen from Hon. Members at the other side of the House with respect to that part of the Bill which related to the administration of justice, he believed upon the points which had been urged there existed' now no difference of opinion on either side of the House. With regard to the danger of placing the appointment of judicial functionaries subject to popular election, that danger seemed now generally understood, and the objections to that mode of appointing those who would have to exercise judicial functions appeared to be generally admitted. - Objections had been urged from that side of the House against the mode provided by the present Bill of having sheriffs chosen by popular election. He be lieved, however, that he was correct in stating that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had virtually, if not totally, aban doned the opinions they had heretofore entertained on that part of the subject. The report of the Commissioners went to point distinctly to the proposition made by the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth ; namely that the appointment of she riffs should be in the hands of the Crown. The words were, " Whether a better system may not be adopted by the re moval of the prominent defects of the corporate institutions, and placing this branch of the general administration of the law in hands more directly responsible for its faithful exercise, we submit to the consideration of your Majesty." It was quite evident that the commissioners did not concur in the propriety of making the sheriffs appointed by popular election. It was clear that, by suggesting that the appointment should be placed in responsible hands, they must have directly al luded to the appointment by the Crown. He would not de sire words more stringent or conclusive than the language employed by the Commissioners, and as he thought that there would now be found very little difference on that part of the subject, he supposed that they might now consider this a point settled.—( Hear, hear.) The next part of the question, then, that they came to oonsider was, with relation to the elec tion of magistrates. As he understood the opinions that had fallen in the course of the present discussion from his Noble Friend the Secretary at War, he believed that the Noble Lord was distinctly of opinion that those magistrates ought not to be appointed by popular election—that there were great objections to this mode of appointing the local magistracy. It had been stated on the other side that there were only fifty-four towns in Ireland to which the provisions of this Bill would apply, and where these elections would take place ; but he contended that there were 154 towns which would be affected by the Bill. The Bill expressly pro vided that if any inhabitant householders of any town in Ire land shall petition his Majesty to grant them a charter of incorporation, it shall be lawful for his Majesty by any such Charter, if he shall think fit to grant the same, to ex tend to the inhabitants of any such town, &c., all or any of the provisions contained in this Act, &c. Now, in every one of these towns which might receive a charter of incorporation there should be it mayor, and he, of course, would also exercise the functions of a magistrate.— ( Hear.) The Honourable and Learned Sergeant who had addressed the House for the first time last night, and with so much ability, urged that the power of the magistrate was very limited, that it did not extend beyond the power of fine and imprisonment; and that the mayor, if he did not pro perly discharge his duties, was subject to be made answerable for his conduct, if necessary, by sending- up informations against him to the Court of King's Bench. Now he ( Sir J. Graham) was not aware of the extent to which this remedy would be available. It should be recollected that this officer was elected but for a single year, and that his functions terminated at the expiration of that pet iod. Now, suppose a mayor or magistrate misconducted himself during his year of office, he did not think that the remedy could reach him during his continuance in office. He (Sir J. Graham) did not know the exact rapi dity with which proceedings before the Court of*King's Bench in Ireland might be carried on ; but he certainly thought that they must be rapid if they afforded a remedy against the mis conduct of the mayor before the termination of his) car of office. The same objections which applied to the election of sheriffs equally: Oplied to the election of magistrates; and he was of opinion that . the appointment of these magistrates should also be placed under the direction of a controlling power, respon sible for the due exercise of their functions. He considered that these appointments ought to be fully placed in the hands of the Crown. He would, then, suppose for a moment that his Majesty's Ministers would be disposed to give way on these points. He would then ask why, if they were convinced that the state of Ireland was such as to allow them to legislate for it on the same principles and in the same way as they had legislated for England and Scotland—why, then, he would csk, did they not stand by that conviction to the fullest ex tent 2—( Loud cheers.) Why did they flinch from giving full effect to their own principles in Ireland—to the same princi ples on which they legislated for both countries—if their con viction of the identical condition and circumstances of Ireland was so strong upon their mind ?—( Loud cheers.) The Right lion. Baronet proceeded to refer to some portions of the dis cussion that bore upon this subject, and contended that there ,vas no argument which applied to the evil of making the mi nisters of justice elective that did not equally apply to the election of the magistrates. He referred to the dis cussions last year upon the English Municipal Bill with respect to the election of magistrates. The Right Honourable Baronet then proceeded to enforce his argu ment, and urged upon the House that, if they made the appoiutment of the magistrates dependent upon 'elections, all the evils pointed out so ably by the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth would prevail. The administration of justice would be tainted at its source. He would now remark upon some of the minor details of the Bill. The change in the qualifi cation was remarkahle, as far as it contrasted with the state of the qualifications in England and Scotland. The Hon. Mem ber for the Tower Hamlets in the course of his speech had referred to the able work of M. De Tocqueville on the de mocracy of America. In that work there was a chapter upon the franchise which, considering the character of the writer, he considered important. As he quoted from memory, he did not recollect precisely the observations made by this writer upon the franchise as enjoyed in America, but he believed the effect was, that in a State where the democratic prin ciple prevailed if the Legislature once commenced by lowering the franchise, all the popular feeling moving in that direction, and the force of the public mind being directed to that point, they must continue to descend lower and lower until (as we understood the Right Hon. Baronet, who was sometimes very imperfectly heard) they arrived at univer sal suffrage. They had talked of proceeding with regard to Ireland on the same principle as they did fdr England and Scotland.—( We understood some person to intimate to the Right Hon. Baronet that the measure for England and Scot land had b ee n distinct.) He was quite aware that there were differences between the measures of Municipal Reform which had been granted to Scotland and to England. But, if they wished to act on similar principles, they must proceed in Ireland either as they had done in England or as they had done in Scotland. Now, what was the qualification for the corporate elector in England ? It was a residence of two years and a half of uninterrupted duration, and the full taxes that became due and payable during that time. and he considered that this continuous residence of two sears a half, and the full and indispensable payment which the inhabitant was liable, would be found fully sexuale, the qualification of a 101. householder.—( Cheers.) N°l: 9 bow did they proceed in Scotland? In that country in bu . lgH a where the population did not exceed 2,000, the municipal a n in the political franchise were made Hear.) paymen . tof al s l o tn w e , Scotland there was no 51. franchise to be found. In Ireland" the smaller towns, they proposed to establish a 5/. municipal franchise. Now, he considered one of the great objecticns the Si. franchise to be this, that if you once reduce the franchise for municipal purposes it will create a demand for tbe reduct. No vi to tion of the political franchise to the same standards In Sc In land the municipal and political franchises were identical. i. 4. tbe Bill before the House they proposed to reduce the elitt!!!'d cation to one-half the amount of qualification that prevail? in Scotland. After some further observations on this toles and with reference to the offices of sheriff and civil magistrate, the Right Hon. Baronet proceeded to contend that the° to this ing of the qualification it, Ireland, as was provided by t Bill, would make a most important change as regarde d i ''' persons liable to serve as jurors. Throughout that co u this measure would effect a most important reduction in thef qualifications of jurors. He considered that this lowering ? the qualification of the jurors bore immediately and directlY) upon the independent administration of justice.—( f lcar j v But he would not weary the House by going more mi nute a into the details of this measure. But he certainly w ould fin it difficult to be convinced that he was to legislate for Eng; land and for Ireland on the same principles. He cou ld 11 ° fail to ask himself, when considering this subject, were theY not, when legislating for Ireland, bound to recollect that theY were legislating for a country whose condition was altoge ther anomalous—(loud cheers)—that they had to deal with , a country where the possessors of the great mass of properitY. were of one religion, and where the great mass of the popu a tion belonged to another ?—(llear. ) On the one side the,' had rank and property—hereditary wealth with its acconr panying refinement and luxury long enjoyed, and unt il re ; Gently, but little interrupted in its enjoyment. On the othe side they had an overwhelming mass of population rising, be admitted, in intelligence and increasing in wealth, but the lower ranks greatly oppressed by poverty and encompassed bY ignorance, and naturally desirous for the attainment of I°,; perty and wealth—desires that frequently existed with a str en q e proportioned to the difficulty of satisfying them. On one s it they had the Protestant religion and those who belonged to (as we understood the Right Hon. Baronet) naturally an xioas for their own security and protection, and for the maintenance their own interests. On the side of the multitude they h2A the Catholic religion, exercising its powerful and accus tomed influence over the hearts, feelings, and judgment of its of votaries.--( Hear, hear.) This was a state of thing s .0 which there was no parallel to be found in the history of other country in the world.—(Hear, hear,) It had been sa' s that the Municipal Reform Bill had worked Well ; a nd wui should it not be applied to Ireland also, with a hope ° f si ; miler results ? Why not grant to one country yielded to the other ?—(Hear, hear.) It was the Pa rt s : prudent foresight, of quick perception, and of sound ial' i p c ; ment, to reflect before choosing ; and, when once the was made, to adhere courageously to it.—(lronical cheer; from the Ministerial benches.) Yes, he repeated it it exhibited a magnanimity no less to depart from a de sd ..". sion when found to be erroneous.--( Cheers from the Oprd, tion.) These were the qualities which adorned and digew he the science of government. Few were prepared to denf f t advantages which accrued to England from the poor P l a . what Of Amendment Act ; but, though these advantages wer e t e mitted, he would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman opPe s A - t "; the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether he was prePa re r bt extend a similar measure to Ireland? Would not that Hon. Gentleman ans wer th a t th e c i rcumstances w ere tots' different? Would he not say that here we have all the 01 ,1 chinery at hand—the parochial authorities, and overseers, a n i i other officers, accustomed to the duty—whilst in Ireland.% these things were wanted? This surely was a case in P °1 : 0 and if the system now in England was improved—if it - f o r rendered better—this surely was an additional reason he extending it to Ireland. If it b e goo d f or one it must. '5, good for another, was in politics as the d o ctrine of eroPi r fi o of quacks, and impostors in medicine.—( Hear, hear.) 0 was emboldened to say this, because be did not inte n d to characterise the councils of the Gentlemen opP es ! te. e . On the contrary, they had adopted the opposite pro p % In the Irish Reform Bill they did not apply the sTa principles as in the English one. For instance, they clO not introduce the system of annual registration, whic h i i c a part of the English Bill. Neither did they adopt the pree - to of taking the polls at various places, and limiting the tioa two days ; and why? Because the circumstances of Ire of forbade it. The law of Civil Bill process was another p ro ? by the different circumstances of the country. It was sta te° the Learned Sergeant the Member for Bandon as one of tht: things which showed the anomalous condition of Ireland• this process the Assistant Barristers could award the recco'fo'iln of 501. against the tenant in Ireland without the interv enti be of a jury.—(Hear, hear.) In England this would not be awarded against any man without his being tried by "' d iis goodpeers; afonrd Ireland sifurely w t e h r e e t o principle be appol applied, wd,htahteistrigaolo byd jfoorrytgaslaantt; tors involving 501. would be equally valuable to the one . the other. Now it was true that trial by jay " 9 in- ti ll e s abstract good, and was, in general, productive of the res i n described ; but the circumstances of Ireland were so far fli s l iTi o adapting that country to what was abstractedly good, thatl t for Member for G a l way o b ta i ned leave to bring in a enlargin g the powers of the Revising Barristers' C —( Hear, hear.) There was another point which shov el/ la nd different circumstances of the two countries. In E t c of the magistrates preserved with great jealousy the rig . . jr . electing their own chairman. In Ireland such were the ‘.. e , cumstances of the country that a sharp and o bjurgator g , s monstrance had been made by the magistrates of the :t eat County in consequence o f th e i n t er f erence of Gover nr with regard to the chairmanship of the quarter sessi ° , l l,ad ( Hear, hear.) The government o f th e p o li c e in Irelan d the been somewhat similar to that in England ; but such wa s t difference of circumstances between the two countries theae Bill had been introduced in th e p resen t P ar liament to tosis away from the local magistracy the superintendence of ere force.—( Cheers.) There was ano th er c i rcums t a nce stil l T t i o n strongly illustrative. He meant th e di s p u t e on the q ue : t ion of introducing the Coercion Bill i n 1834. Th e Administ r- d i a l of that period dwelt in strong terms on what it called Pr e d o n agitation in Ireland ; also, on th e res i s t ance t o tithes, sa eter s the discussion of the question of R e p ea l. H o w were 1 1121 ' ha s now ? Why, there was a mere change of name, an d r ing was then called predial agitation was now denominated ag r- o of outrage.—(" Hear," and a laugh.) What was the stao? Ireland at the time of this dispute on the Coercion Bill 't a d The following was the desc r iption in a letter from the rss Lieutenant of Ireland, which was read in the House of 1-4°„ia on the debate on that Bill, July 4, 1834. No words or be more emphatic, mo r e j us t, o r more applic a ble to prell t ee agrarian disturbances, or th e ag it a ti on o f the repeal s sg Union, whether suspend e d o r i n ac ti on . Th e passage via es follows :—" These disturbances were, in every instance' s of cited and inflamed by ag it a ti on f or th e com bi n ed proje ion . obtaining the aboliti on o f t i t h es an d t h e repea l o f the V I : s o- I cannot employ words of sufficient strength to express In'tee licitude that the G overnment w ill b estow t h e i r d e epest et cm s tion upon the intimate connection which, in the strongest ratters, is marked between agitation and combination f °l l o e. •purposes of leading t o ou t rage an d v i o l ence . Th e y are;, bich parable, in cause and e ff ect , an d i n t h e d rea df u l sc enes - . 1 1 came under my view I am una bl e to separate the ch ain of their indissoluble c onnec ti on ." Thi s was the descrin t fibat the state of Ireland given by the Lord Lieutenant °' f the country at the tim e th a t L or d G rey was at t h e heed °NOW Government—not when he (Sir J. Graham) and his ( ant , Friend (Lord St an l ey ) were connected with the Gover n- its but when it had been purged of its dross, and freed fre,113.,"t0 impurities.—( Hear, and laughter.) Earl Grey, in this letter, asked whether it would be the part of a ' 65 05 9 gislator to proceed against the victims of delusion, and r r i o ol‘ over those by whom they had been led astray—to e ve is .) the cause, and to legislate against the effect ?—( Loud en 7„ 0 ,10 By the remarkable speech on the 9th of the same m onth , with by Lord Althorp, in the House of Commons, the secret s TV respect to the division in the Cabinet were laid open' bre ak' Noble Lord stated that the question which created th anuses. ing up of the Ministry arose out of the anti -meeting ne ws His Lordship stated that he at first concurred in the re i - u ses' of the Act with the exception of the Court-martial cit d i n s Nothing but his strong convictiou of its necessity.el ace duce him to consent to such a violation of Constituti on % bin vernment. Letters of a private and confidential nat ur i c ieriv Lordship said, again brought the matter under the een s en ica' allusine, tion of Government. From the nature of these corem e f th e tions he was led to believe that th e three first claus es ol igbl Act, namely, those which referred to public meeting s ' b iectt., be dispensed with. Under these circumstances he to the renewal of these clauses. In this view his 'berg If; stated that he wawassupported by the lion. Yfe rn Inverness, Cambridge, Edinburgh, and Covent r Y• oh be Noble Lord, notwithstanding t'hese opinions, a nd th°4'istri,' was in a minority, did not think fit to break up the I ‘ . ' It was, however, broken up by other circumstanee9'o, tb d which the House was sufficiently acquainted. Wh at / I -el° application of this ? It tended to show the state 01 t soso at that period—to show that it was incumbent 00 .4 as to Hon. Gentlemen who then agreed with the Noble Le h' the passing of the Coercion Bill with the clause P r° t oria" public meetings, that the state of the country was le s the e was , It different now from what it was th en . If th e country e ? ? in a state of confusion, was it n o w i n a state of Peaeowers. not, why propose to invest the people with those now It might be said, that on th e re ti remen t o f Lord Gre.r. tithe meetings ceased, and the country b e came tranquithe Sta this could not be argued, or w hy should there exi st in iss ed tute Book a Bill parsed by the present MinistrY ---- . l '; esse . „' Lord Melbourne and his present colleagues—hor s ' n „oe ie n t tial restrictions on the Constitutional rights of a Tre e , ; `, o ten! (Hear, hear)—a Bill which granted to the Lord J/ or bidd f : re the power of proclaiming any district in Ireland, e be ri any man in that country from being out of his sunrise or after sunset, subjecting the houses to se Ae rie; visits, and subjecting any one found absent during tnl th the ‘ 9 o j, to a penalty of a misdemeanor. This law passed y' be lie clamation of the whole House, with not even, n publi n iso the exception of the Hon. and L6.rned Member for reo ise .o , (Cheers.) Was a country so circumstanced fit to ,, : w ag ies Institutions adapted for this ?—( Hear, bear.) 1 7 1 oP i i n li garded the question of tithes, there was on record _t Teroles rd nu ite u l a sh consider on this great question in a Speech from the oppgoswere eqtbot h the showed eireoin s t t a h n a e t e s t oosfo the e en tw tle o speech there occurred the following paragraPn i ond ° no s or adapted for the reception of sim il a r me l ce n ne st e i t t r u i t e i? ne __ . I n stitution!,, further reforms that may be necessary, you taw Ve te ( although the Established Church of Ireland is by o f tit nently united with that of England, the peculiarge'