The Sun. — London, England, 1839-02-19 00:00:00

. . I am here to oppose myself to no portion of the com- instead of 365., or at Odessa, where it is 245. instead ok munity. Whosoever expects to hear one word 365. Suppose that from any or from all of these ports they ship Polish corn , w hi c h i s w i t h some persons w h om cross these lips of mine disrespectful to any one class of the Queen's subjects as a class, I well know an obj ec t o f very great d rea d, or Od essa corn or Malta corn, brought chiefly f rom Af r i ca , t o th e will ge h ence disappointed in that respect. Whose ex p ec t s one wor d to be said in disparagement of amount of 100,000/. The v en t ure sa il s , or t h e ven the la n d e d i nteres t s —i n depreciation of its acknow- tures sail, from the different p or t s —th e fl ee t s cross t h e p lodged, and by me most readily admitted, paramount sea—they arrive, and then, wh en th e i mpor t ers h a d importanc e to t hi s commun i ty — w ill go h ence di s - well hoped that they might be per m itt e d t o l an d th e cts one word to drop corn, and when it had been well h o p e d th a t th e from me which betokens a wish that any market would receive the benefit that the pres sure of the scarcity which had raised it to 70s. prefer ence w h atever should be shown to masses and num b ers over the rights of property--will would be relieved by this foreign importation, of 100.000/. worth or foreign grain—they find that in be di sappo i nted. My Lords, I stand here as the advo cate of my country ; I represent here the case of all stead of that there has been a fall from the 70s. by the last • clas ses — of land, of trade, of rnannfactures, of corn- week's average while the ships were upon the sea, merce, th e l an d e d i nterests, the commercial interests, all when it was utterly impossible to stop the venture— professional interest!, the interests of producers, of con- when they are all but landed they find that when they sumers, of workers up, of exchangers of commodities, all were in the middle of the Atlantic or of the North Sea, these classes, I embrace in the view I take of this great that all of a sudden in the last week by some change in question. A n d my L or d , I am " out of Court" --if the weather, or in the speculation of the grain dealers your Lord4hips will allori me to use a professional at home, that instead of wheat being at 705., with the phrase—l am out of this the highest Court of Justice duty at Is., it had come down to 635. or 655., which is in the land, if I stand upon any but universal comprehen- the prohibition price when the duty is at 245., and then sive catholic ground—embracing at once the interests of they cannot land one single ounce of that corn without eacleandthe interests and rights of all. But,myLords,ltrust ruin. I shall not s it d own w ith out sat i s f y i ng your L ordships The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said they might that you can gran t t h e prayer o f t h ese pet i t i ons— bond it. observe th a t I am h ere not to argue the Corn- Lord BROUGHAM—They may bond it if th e y law question upon its mer it s to - n i g h t I am choose to be ruined.—(Hear, hear, and la ug ht er .) - , hero not to call upon you to grant the repeal of I know they may bond it. Do Noble Lords the Corn-laws, in whole, or even in part. I am here to suppose one does not know that ? Why one would be ask you to inquire—to hear the case—before you de- extremely ignorant on the subject. I dare say I am. ciele the case to hear it—l have only to ask you to look If I do not know the A B C of it I know the A B. to it—to examine it—to investigate its details— —(Laughter.)—l know there are such things as bonded to tender you help in that investigation, and to warehouses, and that leads me to what I was going to furnish you with the means of that examination, and all state. It is easy to say you can lay it in bond, and get tint I have now to do is to state so much of the case Gf it out when the duty i s l ow . Wh at. th i nk your Lord the Corn-laws—to make such assertions as I know I ships, is the consequence of that? Six shillings ae year can prove by evidence on oath — as is necessary on every quarter is the exp ense i n a b on d e d ware h ouse, to drive Chase who oppose the prayer to be heard— The grain must be turned generally once a week. The for th a t i s this only question—as will drive thos e grain must be stowed away, and the warehouse-room adversaries to this dilemma, that they must either admit and rent paid. The interest of money at 5 per cent. my proposi.ions of fact to be true, and therefore require at least upon the merchant's capital must lie dead and jug no proof—or they must state them to be so false, as profitless ; b u t if it i s di s p u t e d, I h ave w i tnesses to that n o p roo f can d emo nstrate them—or riser- `how it. Thi s i s w h at I as k ; I want to b e a ll owe d to them t o b e so i mma t er i a l that whether true Prove it. Gi ve me l eave , an d I w ill d emonstrate that or false it si gn ifi es no t t o i nqu i r e. My Lords, 6s. is below th e amount . I have shown you the kind of statements I The Duke of BUCKINGHAM—Nobody doubts it. am to make, rather than the arguments I Lord BROUGHAM—WeII then, what is the con am to use before you. I am about to sequence ? They cannot tell when the corn is to get tend er ev id ence , an d to exp l a i n the mater i a li ty of. out again. They want t o ge t i t i nto t h e market. Its that evidence, and nothing—absolutely nothing more. being in the warehouse is no us e t o th em w h atever. !Sly Lords, as these are the v i ews w hi c h a l one I think They had better have sent it back to Odessa, and then it my d u ty t o b r i ng b e f ore your L or d s hi ps, I t hi n k I they wou ld not h ave to pay t h e l and i ng and the bond sitliraetlnl save your time by at once com i ng to t h e dif- i ng ware h ouse c h arges ; b u t it i s now i n L on d on—it is matters of fact, in ruch an order as may now in Bristol—it is now in Newcastle, a place from scree to a id the inquiry by somew h at arrang i ng which my N o bl e F r i en d presente d a petition the "e , givin g th em me thod, and th en l eav i ng i t to other night, for there i s no p l ace i n the Queen ' s YOUrLordships to say whether what I have ten- dominions, where these laws are felt more, as I know dered to your Lordsh i ps i s i mpossible to profes sionally, ' than at Newcastle-upon-Tyne. But prove or admit that is the only proper ground what is the consequence ? They cannot get it. They e_ f n bringing a subject like the present one may wish, but let them sigh ever so much—let them u aer the consideration of the House. First of weep ever so bitterly over their fate in the bonding ware all, re 7 Lords, let us come to what the present Corn- house, the winds won't sigh the louder—the rain won't laws actually are, and then state what they do—your fill out the measure of their tears—it depends upon the Lordships always bearing in mind that every one weather —and until they get grain at 70s. again, assertion I make, not one vileis meant—not as a statement ounce of that can come out of the bonding warehouse. b ut as I call o you to believe, or admit, It may wait there for two years, it may wait for three as one that I am prepared to prove at your Lord- , years. What if it wait five years ? What if it wait shins' bar. agricultural interestTheform o tate. of things was given to the I six years ? What if it wait seven years ? there is not this country by the Bill of 1804, I only the profit upon the venture gone, but the whole commonly called Mr. Western' s Bill, f rom the name of 1 cap i ta l a b sor b e d , two and forty shillings a quarter Eth an old friend of mine, now ennobl e d. T hat Bill enacted ! sorbed. My L or d s, this is what no man can deny is t he uPening of the ports for the importati on, o f foreign the possible consequence of this system — no man can grain on l y when the price, takeni certain._ number of towns, fell y the overa ge of a ' deny that it is the probable consequenc e of that v.,................ .........v.m.e....................... t when Corn was at a fow price,belowha certain price. :' system. But I go further. I told your Lord - ports opened, [ ships that in showing the probability I should prove the fact. What I have told your Lord-I others ing can. If the demand is to be increased by the open ships—and I implore the attention of the Noble Duke lof our ports, particularly the ports of England and and the Noble Earl opposite—what I have put to I Scotland (for I believe the Irish would he able to defend your Lordships as a p oss ibl e case i s a fact. It hap themselves by the cheapness of the grain) the immediate peneel, took place here—it h a pp en ed in the ray where effect would be to raise the price of Dantzic core, and Polish corn would also rise, and a check would be put you now sit. It happened upon the river that washes upon the low prices. Then it :may he said on the other. these walls. A merchant imported 100,0001. worth of hand that the consequence would be an additional grain from the Baltic. In the year 1831 the price al growth of that corn, and it is said that there is en un lowed him. He hoped to be able to land it :he ex bounded supply of corn if not of land, and that it would petted to make a reasonable profit. The ports were open new tracts of cultivation. It is very possible open—l say open, because the duty was so low as one that may be so. I am prepared with evidence to show shilling when he shipped it in the Baltic. here ports your Lordships the difficulties attending that alteration. were closed when the vessels arrived in the river. How the land could be brought into immediate cultiva- He had recourse to a bonding warehouse. He tion, which is now overspread with thick and impene was told in his distress, as I was told in my argu- treble forests—how difficult it would be to get hands meat a little time ago—" Oh ! but there is the bonding to cultivate it—how much land there is capable of warehouse."—(Laughter.) Into the bonding warehouse cultivation towards Volltynnia and the Ukraine, which went the 100,000/. worth of grain ; and the 100,0001. it is almost impossible at present to get at. All of the merchant's capital might as well have gone into this lam prepared by evidence on oath, and docurnen the river, upon whose banks the bonding warehouse was tare as well as parole, to prove to your Lordships here, built. Whet happened ? Seven long years—for that if ;!ou will give me leave. But it is possible, barely was no supposition of mine—seven long years prices possible, that in the course of years this additional ex kept so low that not one ounce of that grain could be tension of agriculture would make an addition to the sold in the market.—(Hear, hear.) During that seven supply of foreign grain, and consequently the effect of years the whole profit—not only the profit but opening our markets would be to raise the price of that the corpus of the venture, the capital—was con commodity. It is possible that that miy be so. But sumed in charges. The house failed—a Newcastle 1. am now about to show that the manufacturers could house—therefore it was, among other reasons, that ga i n not hi ng at a ll i n p o i nt o f cheapness. I aml said my Noble Friend's petition justly came from canting now to what, in my mind, is still more ins a place which had suffered so much. But that is not. portant, and that is the next subject of consideration. the only instance. The House, a most respectable one, e e am now about, for the rest of my statement, to assume failed, became bankrupt, has not paid is. in the pound : that there is to be no cheapening of food or grain what and I have hint ready to be produced at the bar of this ever ; and lam about to show, what I ant prepared on House to prove upon oath that a commission agent, for oeth to substantiate, would be the inevitable conse he was no more—not the adventurer, not the merchant, quence, and slyest beneficial consequence of that. Now, not the speculator—but the commission-agent lost one first of al!, it gives you the best possible security against and twenty thousand pounds by being such commission- panic, and the present system exposes you to the agent. Now, my Lords, that which happened to this greatest possible risks of it. That is the first proposi respectable man may happen to any one man any one tion of fact I take, following the course I have hitherto day that he ventures into a speculation of this sort. pursued. lam about, first, to show you whet is not My Lords, I think, therefore, that I have some improbable, thet you may not say what is the use of right to state this is a trade which is not fit for a calling witnesses to prose what is impossible ; and neve discreet merchant to embark in, a trade which is not fit I am about to offer to call evidence to show that to receive encouragement from the nature of its chin- what is probable a priori, is in point of fact nela, precarious, tortuous, broken sho tle, and true. The smaller the space is over which any impelled with rocks and quicksands, w hich no chances of calculation go, the fewer the instances sounding can enable e•ou to fethorn, which never in any matters of uncertainty in which you cen can be laid down in the ch erts, or buoyed. It calculate with a precision on which you ten piece shifts like the rapid river's course every night, with reliance. I pray your attention to this. It is a very the winds and weather in the 24 preceding hours. obvious course of reasoning which lam about to pursue, But fine weather. comes—but the harvest looes . well— but i t requ i res a l i ttle attent i on. Suppose, for examp l e, but the yield appears great—down g o the prices and any men were to calculate before-hand what the number the poets shut. A trade more unfit for merchants to of male and female children would be to be produced embark in—a teed° more unfit for fair speculation— by any given marriage. It would be impossible to arrive one more unseemly for the employment of mercantile at anything like a conclusion to be depended upon. Sup capital cannot well be imagined ; for gambling—a pose, on the other hand, the calculation would be whet trade for desperate speculations—for needy hungry were to be the number of male and female children to adventurers—for persons without capital ; it may do be produced in a given parish, the conclusion would not well ; for regular traders and the wholesome operations be so very uncertain.—(Hear, hear.) If it were of commerce, it is utterly unfit. Now, my Lords, the a small perish it would be more uncertain ; if it next view cf the subject which I inn about were a large parish it would be less uncertain, to impress upon, you and the next body of evidence and if it were of the community it would be almost cer which lam about to tender to your Lordships, relates tain. Suppose the chances were to be calculated as to to the irnmeciate effects of this system of cramping the state of the weather. To tell what the weather would the supply of corn, and the stinting effects of those laws be on any given day would be impossible. • upon prices. s • ‘eid ? my Lords, I am about to admit that a great deal of exaggeration has been put forward on Lord MELBOURNE—I don't think that is quite impossible. both sides.—l am about to admit that the fears of the Lord BROUGHAM—I dare say tile Noble landed interest have exaggerated, and the hopes of the Viseouet, from his various reading, may be in a situation manufacturing interest have exaggerated, the cheapness to say what kind of weather there will be on a given d . e.y, that would result. I may give ne great satisfaction to is not impossible, but I can only say that from my reading either party, differing as I do upon this point from the petitioners. I stand here not as their agent, but as one I conceive it to be impossible. Well, but suppose a men [rely be called upon to say whether the next season of your Lordships, if you will ellow me to call myself would be a good s e ason or not—that he has no such. But noes I think the probability is, and lam b ready to prove it to your Lordships, that some cheaper of kuowing—ut if you take ten yeere n you have some means of knewing ; if you take twenty jug of the commodity, although not perheps a very con you have better—if you take a century you have still siderable lowering of it, would he the consequence of a (setter, because it ahnost amounts to a certainty that in repeal of the Corn-laws, and leaving the trade in grain the courseof that time the seasons would be about equally absolutely free. But what I have already said about the e ln.‘ e price of wheat in Dantzic proves that. In Dantzic the good and bad. Exactly the sum principle app to different countries. No man can guard against a bad price of wheat is 365., and adding about 10s. for costs crop on a particular farm nor in a particular country ; (making 465.), is the price at which that wheat but it very rarely happens indeed that there is a uni may be sold in our market. But you are selling vernal failure of crop all over the country, because dif it at 555. or 605., being 10s. or 15s. per quarter dearer ferent countries differ a little in climate, greatly in soil, than you could get it at Dantzic. From Malta and fromaccidental circumstances operating upon theta, the average price of wheat, for ten years the thing, taking the whole of them, will come almost ending 1836 was about 325., and adding for expenses to a moral certainty, or I ought rather to say, a oily 15s. 6d., make 475. Gd., or 4Ss, for Malta wheat. But sisal certainty. If you take the whole world together within the last ten years your average has not been 4Ss., there is hardly any season in which all the crops woul d but somewhere about 585., which is a difference of 10s. be good, or all would be bad. Now, what do the At Odessa the price of wheat is differently stated in Corn-laws do ? What does the exclusion of wheat different places, and it has been said by way of alarm do ?—( Hear.) What is your object but to guard ing the agriculturists, by a Mr. Saunders, in his evi against the national calamities, a scarcity or famine! dente given in 1836, that Odessa wheat was selling for and this confines your chances to one country. It eon -103. or 12s. only, consequently if you add 153. to that, fines your chances to one kind of weather—it confines it makes the priceof Odessa wheat in our market under rn -30%, and therefore, says this friend of the farmers, your chances to one season—it confines you to one co munity, and that is neither more nor less than handing and say the friends of the system (although I have been y told he has changed his opinion within the last fewou over to the mercy of the national winds and die ments. But if you have the whole of Europe, much yeais)-- . --" You all will be ruined."' He omitted a very and Material circumstance, which I. shall supply to your more the East, the Levant, and Africa, e all Lordships. During the time that he said the price was America to calculate upon, it is an athose certainty 10s. or 12s. that was quite true, but he forgot to tell that if there was a free trade from all places no s the jury that at that particular time the Dardanelles scarcity or dearth could ever show themselves in this were shut, and consequently the wheat brought down country, for if you had bad seasons there would be good was a drug in the market--(Hear,hear)—but when the seasons in other places, and their superfluity would Channel trade is open Odessa wheat is 10s. or supply your want ; but dearth is inflicted by the bad season, and if man did not interpose his luckless hand 12s. higher, being nearly 305., which, added to 1,55. 6d, for charges, makes that wheat 455. Gd. in our market to help the mischief of the bad season, by convert -not a very material difference between that and Bal- ins a dearth into a famine, it would be dearth, . dearth only ; but the existence of the Corn wheat from it than from Dantzic and the Levant, and tic wheat; because, whereas, it is cheaper to bring ama laws expose you to the inevitable risks of a famine, and I the expenses are only two-thirds less from the Baltic am ready to prove to you from all countries, by per than from the other. But now, my Lords, I think it sons from those countries, persons who have been may be assumed from the price of bread on the Con- traders in those countries, persons who have been resi tinent being considerably less than here, partly ni) doubt dents in those countries, men who have shown the bad owing to taxation, but partly owing to the Corn-laws, seasons balanced by the good—persons who can show which regulate the price of bread. My Lords, when you the wholesome, and if you will but be wise, the I find that in 1838 the 41b. loaf on the other side of most comfortable inference from this fact, that if you the Channel was sold for 4d., while on this side of leave their trade universally free, a famine is almost as little to be dreaded in this country as an earth the Channel it was sold for Bd.—(A Noble Lord on the Opposition side said, "It is now a shilling")—l am quake, My Lords, the next great evil which is talking of that time. lam not about to state that the _ct . ene by the Corn-laws, next to taking away secu- Corn-laws have been very baneful or otherwise in their rity against famine, and of converting dearth operation, nor do I mein to give way to any clamour into famine—the next great mischief of the working of the Corn-laws, is to make the price of corn fluctuating about cheap bread one way or the other. lam going to and uncertain. lam the more apt to put forward this state to your Lordships that I do not expect any very great cheapening of bread. I think it will view of the subject, and to tender my evidence upon it, fall very little—l thi n k it won 't f a ll very much—th a t is because it was the ground of the Bill when that Bill was brought in. It was said by those who opposed the my belief—l m a y b e wrong ; b u t su pp ose it f e ll on ly ss. a quarter—suppose you make an average of the Bill, Oh, you want to make corn dear. No such thing, said the supporters of the Bill, nothing is further usual price, and take it at ss. lower. Wh en y o u r Lordships consider that there are some 50 millions of fro m our inten tion than to r a ise the price of wheat. quarters of grain, and 12 or 13 millions of wheat con- Then it was said you want to keep the price up. No annually, you will see what an enormous sum thing . of the kind, we assure you we do not ask that— is levied by these laws. I don't mean to dwell upon tnat is not our object, you mistake us altogether. this—this is not the view I take of it—l have much Why, it was said they're a very odd sort of people these, higher objects in view in making grain cheap—not that what do th ey mean ? t h ey d on ' t want to l et f ore i gn I undervalue making cheap the steff of life—not that I corn in, they d on 't wan t to raise the price of wheat, and undervalue the effects of these laws upon our whole they don't want t o k eep t h e pr i ce up . Th ey d ee l i n system, not only upon the comforts of the people corn, and they say th e y d on ' t want i t to b e d ear . They upon our system of trade and commerce—not that I but would rather have it c h eap . Wh a t d o t h ese men mean ? We will tell you what we mean—we mean underrate that ; by no means ; but I am afraid, from steadiness—(Hear, hear)—steadiness is what we mean, the very nature of things, it is not likely that the re and steadiness is of much more importance titan cheep duction will be what is anticipated, and neither the land- n ess.—(Hear, hear, from the Tory side of the owners on the one hand, with their exaggerated appre hensions, nor the manuf ac t urers on th e other, who cherish House.) I agree to that. That is my own propos i t i on . Well, then, they said, we want not to make corn dear, such fairyhopes—hopes which appal the one, and enchant we would rather have it cheap, but we don't want flue the other, arising from the somewhat incorrect and tuation ; make it as cheap as you please, but only let it superficial views on the subject which they have taken, be steady.—( Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition.) will find their expectations realized. But, my Lords, I know that was said—l heard it myself—l heard it suppose there is only a permanent reduction of le.— and I think that is p u tti ng it l ow enoug h— su pp os e, that urged so e:sewhere, and they may be as reasonable and instead of ss. a q uar t er diff erence , as I h ave now as rational elsewhere as here. They said so ; and at argued—(l suppos e it w ill b e a d m itt e d on a ll h an d s that , all events I entirely agree that is a grand object to the the result would he a re d uc ti on o f I s . a quar t er on ly)— Prevention of dearth. Certain c i rcumstances may be ; but there can be no accommodation to a and suppose, that as the steady, permanent, effectual accommodated consequence of the repeal of the Corn-laws, which now fluctuation ; and of all the curses that ever were inflicted upon a country those great fluctuations of prices that took exclude foreign g ra in from the home market, and th a t the difference would be neither more or less than Is.— place by tampering with the standard at the tail of the I ask your Lordships to pause and reflect well one mo last century were the set crest. I was one of the parties, mont upon what that shilling means. It means a tax—it and I take great blame to myself for not taking greater means a poll-tax—it means that capitation so hated in care to moderate the rapidity and the uncompromising ancient times under the justly bated and execrated rapidity of the changes that then took place. I was name of a poll -tax, which in this country, in civilized most dangerously ill at the time (I do not know whe times, is never resorted to, and never viewed with other sentiments than those of abhorrence, and which is thein the discussion, but I was always one tiler that would be any excuse or not), and prevented taking any part natural resort of corrupt and arbitrary Governments— a tax from which there is no escape, for all must eat Duke of ' acknowledge it, and I take Wellington.? I . of the parties.-- 7 ( Hear, hear, as we understood, by the and all must pay—a tax which falls upon all, the poor and that is one of the very few things equally with the rich—upon the tnen who can hardly Duke lupobnwite, do e agree. Upon the whole I supported great blame to . myself n for it. I agree with the Noble support life by the sweat of their brow, and upon men p u Mr ou P w e l el . 's Bill. If I had been in vigorous health at who are wallowing in wealth, and worth one hundred thousand pounds per ye ir. He and his family pay five great doubts I had, whether we should come hack shillings tax upon their bread,—as much as the i m ia a s n i o l f opinion, I think, would the . time and been able to attend the House with the from that standard,. my fifty or a hundred thousand pounds a yea!, who same number of children. Of course he pays moreth t a . n e others if he has a larger family. But, my Lords, there fr is made some pause between the two extremes. have been that it would have been better to have more than that—a great deal more—bread thano ms a f much greater portion of the food of the poorcurse never visited any country than when those great But at all evets I am of this opinion that a greater they o of steadiness of rice and prevention of fluctuation I your Lordships ; you have luxurious living, which know not of. It is as if you were taxed for part , e , ve A ry ne of and enormous fluctuations took place. Now, in respect look at the continued p operation of the Corn-laws with the food you consumed—(A Noble Lord, k additional alarm. I will show your Lordships the degree in which those laws have affected steadiness of are")—and for most of it you are. I now d t , h b a u t t so y d o w u i e s r spices and wines, and other luxuries are taxed, . hard that they must pay, in their scanty 'means, as much or more in proportion than any fluctuation and I am about to tender evidence to your humble s phere an d price and fluctuation. I say they have not prevented have not prevented the ls fluctuation. Nay, I will go a step further, and 1 one—the wealthiest of all. My Lords,lthink thi s Lordships, showing you they quite enough to disincline any man from supportingmnst detain your Lordships with man y figures, but I will present system of taxation, from any but the un- will show you they y have caused fluctuation. I will not Take seventeen years, brought doubted and peculiar advantages. Nosy, m y Lords, I have already said I care not (havinglt. give you one or two abstracts. from th e year 1773 to the year 1790, the fluctuations 3d.-4id• per cent. was paused down the cheapening effect of time r epei . o ali t n h cr ose laws b from 7s. to 55., and from ss. to Is. ; and hwere not more than 2s. or 2s. that Lord BROUGHAM—BY WELLINGTON —Do you take the to make a supposition of that cheapness, it may The Duke of WELLIN I . . ca * renot if the whole measure of the fluctuation. that shilling be taken away entirely. Possibly not lower the price at all, because, in all thosecalcula- average of years. I will afterwards tions of the effects of the repeal, suffer me to say one thing has been left out of view by the alarmed agri- take the averag e in each year—the different prices in culturists on the one hand, and the sanguine manufac- each year. lam now . taking the average by years, and tumors on the other. I have already stated that the the greatest fluctuation as not more than 4/ per c t. •was price. Now I stop price of wheat at Dantzic is 365. ;at Malta, 425. and; bd en --it was a very steady . at Odessa, 30s. All this is the price of foreign wheat at 1790 for a very obvious next th _ ears reason—l mean to under the present st stem of our Corn-laws, omit the y u to 1804 and 1805, for years— pose our markets were thrown open—suppose there this reason was as free an importation of foreign grain lucre as anythere were P two years of scarcities, 1795-1796,, th at might confound the calculation, other consumption, There was still at article, is it-likely, with that increased : i a worse year, 1800, while I admit that the supply would continue to be as great c was selling ?—[A tle fluctuation in 1801 was 114 per cent.—wheat Noble Lord—Certainly not.)—Some Noble Lords ar l at • . 104.= per quarter. Then I omit I those as .. ; that it -mos the begio argue by steps, and I cannot take two steps at a time ifling of the depreciation so that for these three reasons, d'spute that now, I have disposed of it already—you in crease the difficulties in the way of the manufacturers of oar own country entering into competition with foreign manufactuters in continental markets—you tend to shut out your manufacturers from the foreign markets, giving to the foreign manufacturer a premium at the expense of your own. My Lords, this is the probable theory, and I tender proof upon oath. I am ready to prove on the evidence of unquestionable witnesses, that whenever your markets are open to foreign corn, thera is a check given to foreign manufacturers, and an encouraeement to your own. I have evidence of facts which I shall presently state more in detail, and which, if they are admitted to be true, on that hypothesis alone can your Lordships reject the proffered evidence. I shall upon them, ground resolutions which your Lord ships cannot than but agree to. My Lords, there is another evil which the manufacturers of our country sustain from the torn-laws. In order to be able to export our goods—and this applies, therefore, to the merchant Who exchanges, as well-as to the manufac turer who works up, commodities, to enable them to approach foreign markets with profit—they will not do so without—it is necessary that means exist in that foreign market for furnishing returns to our exportations. Nominally, it is done by bills of exchange, &c. But unless Sou take the goods of your foreign customers, they will cease soon to be so. Now what is the effect of the Corn-laws ? In countries to which the Corn-laws do not apply in this way, which have other commodities besides corn to send in return for our manufactures, our merchants have a considerable trade, and our manufacturers export large quantities of their goods to those countries. But how is it with those countries which have nothing but corn and timber to give us in return ?—and the argument applies to timber, for there are timber laws in the Colonies to answer to our Corn-laws at home—those countries which are much fitter customers for us than others, inasmuch as they can be communicated with four or five times to once with other countries ; the districts on the Baltic, for example, which lie within a ten days' or a fortnight's voyage, .and which produce nothing for exportation but corn and timber ; if you will not take their corn and timber, they will not take your manuFactures ; so that you arc not contented with raising the prices of your own manufactures--;with lowering the prices of foreign commodities—with giving the Continental manufac turers a premium against your own—but you must shut out your manufacturers, hampered as they are by the restrictions of the Corn-laws—you shut them nut altogether from foreign markets, by saying that they shall not receive the only commodities which the foreign merchants can offer them in exchange for their manufictures. The- operation of this result of the Corn-laws is confined to Europe, and principally to the northern parts of Germany, and the districts bor dering on the Baltic. What is the test of this effect ? It is this—simple, I think, and decisive. Examine what are your exports to those countries from which you decline to receive the manufactures. Then take another set of countries—those which have other com modities besides the prohibited ones, to send you in re turn : that is, Africa, Asia, the West Indies, South and North America—all which countries have some com modities, either gums, or metals, or cotton, or sugar, &c., which they can supply us with. Examine where your exports have increased, where kept steady, and where diminished, under the influence of your Corn-laws. And the result of the two branches of the inquiry will show the effect of those Corn-laws, whether prejudicial, innocent, or advantageous to our ma nufactures. Now, my Lords, I will open to you the evi dence which on this part of the question I am prepared to lay before you. In those countries to which our Corn laws do not apply, they having other commodities to ex change with us, there has been fram 1816 'o 1836, twenty years, an increase of our trade, from 16,000,0001. annually to 28,000,0001., clearly showing that there was no want of skill in our manufacturers ; that there was as great a demand for our goods as ever, where our customers had the means of buying them—that is in Africa which could export her ivory and gold dust, the West Indies which had their sugar and rum : and America, which had her cotton ; in all these countries there was an increase of fifty per cent. in our exports in twenty years. On the other hand, in those countries where our Corn laws acted as a prohibition on their commodities—for the five years ending 1820, as compared with the five years ending 1836, there was a difference of no less than twenty per cent., a diminution to that, amount, in the latter period, of ,our exports. For one or other, or both of two reasons, my witnesses will show to your Lordships that their experience leads them to believe that they have found out the real cause. For my own part, I believe that it is not one, but both of the reasons to which I have alluded, that operates upon the commerce of the country—the favour which the Corn-laws gave to the foreign manufacturer, by keeping down their prices and raising ours, and by shutting the,home market to the only article. with which they could pay us for the articles they wanted. My Lords, I will go into more detail in my evidence. The re turns of the exports show a most alarming increase. in the export of those articles upon which we have spent little or no labour—not one of the most alarming aspects is the great increase of new manufactories abroad, and 1 can prove, by witnesses at the bar, by men of skill, by men of experience and knowledge—l will show by these gentlemen that the operation of, the Corn-laws has been to make,to force foreign nations to be come manufacturers. Now, my Lords, look at the kind of articles in which your exportations have decreased. My Lords, the raw materials have increased in a most extra ordinary ratio—while the export of manufactured articles has most materially fallen off. In bar and pig-iron the exportation has increased very greatly—they are the raw materials, but cutlery, the manufactured article, has not increased, but has in many places fallen off. Again, take the article of woollen cloth : the exportation of ''en cloths had greatly fallen off, but the exportation ,;:eatly increased ; for instance, the woollen of wool has in 1826 amounted to 346,0001. goods exported to fallen off 2-sths of that W ell, sixteen years later amount, as it then amounted to no , Lnore thar.!.22,.. 111 00(tdb.; but the export of wool has greatly increZ'e d . thtee years ending in 1827 the amount of t he wo.?1 ex ported was 178,000/., while in the three years ending in 1837, it had amounted to the enormous sum of 3,744,000/. Again, the yarns exported in 1827 amounted to the sum of 154,0001., but in 1837, they, like the wool, had increased to the large sum of 2,472,000/. These figures which I have laid before your Lordships clearly show that the exports of the raw ma terial has most materially increased, while the manu facturing article has most sensibly and alarmingly fallen off. What do we find—do we not know that in former time England supplied the whole markets of Germany,but now Germany and Belgium supply themselves to our exclu sion, as I am perfectly ready to prove by credible wit nesses at your Lordships' bar. I will now illustrate to your Lordships by a few facts—facts which I am prepared to prove on oath at your Lordships bar. I will shew you the places where the the manufactures have been established—the manufactures of Nottingham has been for a long period of years—the stocking trade, which trade has also for a long period been carried on in Saxony. In that country in 1815 the stocking frames, according to authenticated returns, was only 1000, while in Nottingham they amounted to 16,200. By the last returns in Saxony there were now 16,000 stocking-frames, being as near as possible the number now in Nottingham. This, my Lords, is only one particular branch of trade. I could show your Lordships that the manufacture of spinning machinery has most largely increased abroad ; but I would greatly prefer proving it to your Lordships in a more compendious, 'satisfactory, and con vincing manner, by evidence on , oath at your Lordships' Bar. I look around me in order to see what office itself is the best test to try this question, and it immediately occurs to me that by looking at the supply of machinery to foreign nations is at once going to the fountain-head. If I can demonstrate to your Lordships that there is an almost incredible increase— if I show that the manufacture of cranes, spinning jennies and wheels is now going on by the gross for fo-' reign nations, I shall have demonstrated to your Lord ships that there is _great danger accruing to our manu factures. If I demonstrate to your Lordships that a great many establishments have been erected abroad for the purpose of making machinery, I will have proved to your Lordships the necessity for some change. I am prepared, my Lords, to prove that these establishments .either now exist or are in the course of erection, by two most respectable witnesses—by two gentlemen who have been much alarmed at the falling off of the manufactures of this country—by two gentlemen who have visited these establishments, not out of any idle curiosity, but be cause they were alarmed at being successfully opposed by foreign manufacturers in markets which hitherto were their own. They are prepared to state, my Lords, that these foreign manufactories are greatly on the in crease. They are prepared to state, my Lord, that there is a large manufactory for machinery at Dresden ; that there is another at Chenitz, which is worked and super intended by English hands ; that at Prague there is another of the same sort ; thht at Vienna there is another, which is thought of so much impor tance by the Government of that e nlightened country, that . the .establishment is absolutely fixed in the palace ; two, in fact, of those I have enu merated are established in palaces. At Elberfeldt there is another—at Aix-la-Chapelle there is another, and each of them worked by English hands ; and I pray your Lordships to observe, that when I speak of one manufactory at each of those places, I speak of many— I might say that every one of them is a manufactory of manufactories, becftuse each of them being a manu factory for making machinery alone, must supply a great number of manufactories. Spindles, wheels, and cranes, every kind of machinery is made at Zurich, and I am prepared to prove to your Lordships that they use no less than five tons of pig-iron—that no less than five tons of pig-iron are melted and used in that establish ment in one day. If your Lordships want another test —if your Lordships will like the test of numbers, I am prepared to prove that at Liege there is one manufac tory alone where 4,000 hands are employed under Eng lish auspices, and worked by English capital. A Noble Lord to-night presented a petition, which I saw made its impression on the House, and in commenting u it said, if the Corn-laws were rep ea l e d English lartarrn would be under the necessity o f see ki ng t h e i r fortunes :who pay hundreds of thousands a year in wages--it is not only to them of the highest importance, but it is of the last necessity that• they should know what prices they can fearlessly and undoubtedly rely on. They are in the dark, groping their way without a glimmering of light to lead them, ignorant whe ther they are entering on a speculation that is to redound to their wealth or to prove their ruin. But for that, standing still is the best course to take, according to the proverb that where you cannot see you should not move, for all classes—for the consumer of corn—for the buyers of manufactures,—for e ery per son, be he the industrious worker with his hand, or the capitalist trusting to his profits, or the idle consumer, hav ing an income to be spent by him—for all classes it is of the first importance to have steady prices affecting all the commodities in which they deal, either to purchase or to consume. The price of corn will more or less affect the price of all commodities. When you tell me that prices are steady, you tell me that every man's income is steady , and that each person, be he agriculturist or manufacturer, producer or consumer, knows his own resources. But if you tell ma that prices fluctuate, you tell me that no man's income is known, that no man's resources are within his own kno ledge, that no man can play the part of economy and prudence. And I believe that steadiness of prices, followed as it is, by a certain knowledge of each man's resources, is, of all the helps to prudential conduct— of all the preventives to extravagance and dis sipation—the most important which lawyers, minis ters, or moralists, can desire or aim at. There fore it is my Lords, that I look upon fluctuation —which makes every man, more or less, a speculator— which causes every man, more or less, to lead a gam bling life—fluctuations in the prices of the necessaries of life, I look upon as that evil against which the wise lawgiver would most sedulously guard by every means in his power. My Lords, it is for that reason I have tendered the evidence upon this head, and have gone into it at some length, because I think it is altogether impossible to overrate its importance. And now, my Lords, I come to another part of the evidence I ten der, and which I think hardly inferior to, and is, in fact, closely connected with, the last. My Lords, the effect of the Poor-laws—(The Noble and Learned Lord, who who thus said Poor-laws" for " Corn-laws," was re minded of his mistake by Earl Stanhope ; he imme diately corrected himself and proceeded.) My Lords, when I look towards that part of the House where my Noble Friend sits, I am instinctively reminded of the Poor-laws, and hence arose the erro r .—(L aug h ter .) The two subjects, in truth, are by no means uncon nected—(Hear)—and I may say this in passing—the landowners, who have the burden chiefly of maintain g, the poor—(Hear, hear)—have a great interest in cheap food, which they yet, by some strange fatality, never seem to be conscious of. If they sell corn high they must pay high wages ; or, when there is a scarcity, maintain the labourers out of the poor-rates. So it is not all gain for keeping up a high price of corn, and fluctuation is of most pernicious tendency, for whenever there is an uncertainty in trade, there is variation as to the numbers employed, and this throws from time to time numberless persons on the poor-rates, that is, upon the landowners.—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, I was about to state to you a very important head of evidence —that with respect to the inequality of prices produced by the Corn-laws in different parts of the world. The consequence of our not taking corn from the Continent, corn being the only commodity in many countries offered to you, is to make corn unnaturally cheap in other countries, to create a greater difference than nature would between the price of corn in England and the price of corn elsewhere. Consequently, it has a tendency to make a greater difference than naturally would be produced between the price of labour here and elsewhere. Consequently, it tends to make a greater difference than is natural between the prime cost of producing our manufactures, and the prime cost of producing manufactures elsewhere. Consequently, again, it makes a greater difference than natural, between the facility of entering a market, to the foreign manufacturer, and the facility which our manu facturer possesses of entering the same market. And this produces another consequence, or rather, perhaps, the same result in a different shape. I wish to drive home the c onclusion, that when you, under the " pro tection," as you call it, of the Corn-laws to your agricul ture, intended to produce steadiness in prices—l don't ........... ,er•II in distant lands--(Hear, bear.) I am far from • ncYnig that your Lordships should shut your ears. I also. Say, " Hear, hear," but I say " hear" both sides. I say here it is necessary that your Lordships should hen. r the proof that the petitioners have to lay before your L ,ord ships. It is necessary, I think, that your Lord ships should hear those individuals, probably not very well informed upon the subject, but individuals whose whole dependence is upon their understanding of the questtion. It is incumbent upon your Lordships to hear :from them what is now gonig on—to hear frow them w hat " has been going on,and what will continue until our manu factures are overwhelmed ; it is necessary that your Lordships should have that proof before you on .oath . They will tell you upon oath what has already takenplace. My y Lords, my prayer to you is to hear my desire., 15 that you should hear ; but I am desirou s that yeu would only not hear fears and fancies ; but tha t you should Lear the truth.—(Cheers.) I am desir ous that your Lordships should hear not only what I may take place, but that you should not refuse to allow me to prove what has , taken place. My Lords is it very natural, is it dek-able that the English manufacturer should go abroa4 and settle in foreign countries. Let me ask yoter Lordships if a single English farmer was to go abroad, whether it would not be much to be regretted, because we might lose in this country a very valuable meneher of society. But if an English manufacturer goes to Zurich, be does not go that you should lose a good subjec t at Wol verhampton, or an excellent justice of the peace at the Sessions—but he goes to work up into manufsectur es . and machinery—he goes to work up into spindl es an d spinning jennies, five tons of pig iron, for the pure " ) s e of enabling him to compete with the manufacturers in this country.—(Hear, hear.) Another goes to Lieg e ' and he takes away with him not only a valuable menthe of society, but he establishes a manufactory wher e 4,000 persons are employed, not in making cotton twist, but a manufactory of it. I know I shall be told by sold.: of my noble friends opposite, who are so fond of having one side of the question stated and not the other, who are more desirous to indulge with an audience the man who dreads and apprehends, rather than the man who proves.—(Laughter.) I know I shall be told that this case is only the case of the manufacturers, but that they have to consider the landed interest. All I have said, my Lords, applies as much to the farmer as the manufac turer. lam speaking for them as much as for the stinew facturer, and I must tell your Lordships that there is n ° such very great reason in maintaining these Corn-laws as sound men imagine. But there is a much greater yeasa —that your Lordships have a far higher interest in c.hank leg the present down-hill progress of manufactures, shi cu f the Corn-laws have e ff ected. I will now address nee'a°l especially to the landed interest, and I think it is 500- thine in favour of my position at least that man; of t he landed" interest have expressed their decided cinita"ethat the present system of Corn-laws ought not to Bo n d tinue.—( Hear, hear.) Individuals of high character, large capitalists in land say that they would be Dwel l . better without Corn-laws than with them, and that l will prove, if your. Lordships give me the opportunity o f doing so, at your Lordships' bar. If I were to name ae.ongst all your Lordships any individual who has a gree t stake in the country, more than another—an individual r‘ll° can have no possible interest in putting any impediment in the way of the agriculturist—whose whole means of wealth is with the agriculturist, I might name my much loved an d Noble Friend who brings forward this motion ; for lao only preceding him in my statement to enable him to lay the matter more clearly before you—l allude to the Nell Lord who is connected with Yorkshire. That Noble Lor has great possessions in that county, and also in Ireland' which must be considered as entirely an agricu ltu ral country. That Noble Lord has stated his firm viction that this country is much worse, from the es istence of the present Corn-laws, than it would . 11 been without them. Such is that Noble Earl's o g l e nion, and such I believe also to be the opinion of a ki Lord who is one of the greatest agriculturists conneete" with the county of Norfolk. That Noble Lord does 11 44 consider the Corn-laws a benefit to the farmer. Ido 1 0 inquire at present with respect to the nature of the alters' tion made—at all events the fixed duty is not the presel system. Another Noble Lord, to mention whose name am sure will excite veneration in your Lordships, 00e whose whole life had been spent in the pursuits of agrictll' turd, I allude to the late Lord Thanet, of whom it wa s not enough to say he had applied himself to this subject' but whose knowledge upon it almost excelled that a sea other. I believe that no man was more experience"( upon the subject than he was—he was a man ° lf immense landed property, and I err very gr o e at e l indeed if he did not uniformly maintain that the 1-;,11.'„- laws did the agriculturist more harm than good--( some Noble Lords on the Opposition side called out '` no.) Well, perhaps, that Noble Lord did not knOss.,'" own mind, perhaps he did not know any thing of. fard7,4 —( A laugh)—but be that as it may, I think I have s tet 7. enough to show your Lordships that it does not follow the a man connected wit%, land is always a friend of the Corn; laws. Now I can bring before your Lordships a g re ,i i number of instances where farmers have stated e x ee"L the same thing. One fact I will mention to your b °l. f ships by way of blunting the edge of the appetite ° those Noble Lords on the other side of the House, n' t ,i seem to wish for my destruction. The ports were close and there was a complete monopoly in the home marls ,„° from 1832 to 1838—now what was the price of during the whole of those years till the ports wed open—( Hear, hear.) why the average price t"" 365. and a fraction. Earl STANHOPE—That was the lowest. Lord BROUGHAM—I am going to give you a c Oll2- parative statement. It is a matter of indifference to or whether it was the highest or the lowest. If I was e e nl Y taking one year, then it would make som e di ff erence ; b e t I am going to compare the years when the ports were open' with those when they were not-365. 7d • wa s , t ,e be average of December 1835, that is the average cl e 'e n c medium period of shutting the ports. Your Lerds s will find that average to be by no means high at thaetiln e ," I take the month of December 1835, because I hav e 11 '; other p average, whea the ports were opened, o c e e ri December. In December, 1835, the average is 36 5 .„ 1 , 3 : In December, 1838, when the ports were opened , This fact, my Lords, I think will blunt the edge of the appetite for my , destruction which , s ay among some N o bl e L or d s oppos i te .—( L aug hter). the therefore, that there is this very material detriment to landowner fr om t h e present state of the Corn- la ws. d will admit that th e present measure i s as w i se as it it " 6 . been framed by an angel—l will admit that all enY a r g b u t m ,;:lts and evidence proves nothing — l will admit all toli the we t :nest . advocat e s o f th e me a s ure can desire- -I do all this—os:t, then, I will say that they are not nee:st, sary laws—that tieev are repealable laws.—that there t be been a fluctuation of place under them, and this ra u-s pi conceded to me, that a s l o ng as these laws co.ntinue e:; tibt , trusts will entertain a d ou bt, and as long as tha t : l o se continues capital will be withheld from the land. I s al. a large capitalist, who will prove before you that a rer t 4, of the Corn-laws, and a few months' steadiness in fa ll : i ege will let louse millioris now in the funds, which are yiel% only a profit of 3i per cent. I think, anything mo re e t t i c ficial to the landowner cannot well be imagined t han . My application of a large capital in the cultivation of land. t he Lords, it is a benefit to the landowner—it would be greatest advantage to him if tee protecting duties on re aper factures were removed—if manufactures we'v s old che r t . ° . consequently —if the people could buy goods, either rats prpa duce, or the manufactured goods which enter into the er e nufactured wares of this country, consumed by the fe rin o f —if you could buy them without any of the increalo. price which is occasioned by what is called the mal t to turing or protecting duty, it would be a great be g s lo ss the fanner. I need not tell you that until the Corn - 0 , are repealed, no man will propose so extravagant a Pl O , s tion as to deprive the manufacturer of lo protectiog..e, les when you Keep them up in favour of the 'entice /1 4 r . Bat my last observation of the effect of sna t n . ti k ing tures in behalf of the landowner, is one of so s ri g ee a nature that I do beseech, esty best attention of your Lordshi p I to it. In refere o r ear what I have stated as to the wane of our manufacTo I began by saying that not one word should escsr ° _ , t he my lips depreciating the agricultural, the land intere%' th is landlord and farmer, whose great influence by right !;: t of community I admit—whose great influence in PF l e d tie fact, in tli's community, I admit—whose being n".O the with the fate of the country from the stake he bas 1 0 011 country, I am the last man to deny, or hesitate to. _ m a' lorece to concede, but so neither will I say one word against 0;00 nufacturer—(Hear)—or w6isper one breath whic h e re' to undervalue that most resptctable, useful, ess entials b. the bar of the community ; and I have lately seen, ! s t 0 0e greatest astonishment, from a Noble Friend of rals.e.'elee of the present Ministers, a statement made upon eb"tery., tion occasion I suppose it roust have been—( o rits in which he places in the most inviduous contrast th,e n f f ace of the manufacturer and the cultivators of the lan d • ro e rality, tranquillity, of all the qualities that make 00 gIY -1- , and good citizens he places in the most odious cell°.o a ll manufacturer and the landed interest—( Hear, hear) van' things relating to morals, to steadiness of conduct, tiod quillity as goo d subjects, he conceives it to be a wflaetorer gination, a dreaming fancy—to compare the Inan a eie 07 to the landed cultivator. My Lords, these are not ee eS: timents. As my Noble Friend has in his experie ° „ o lo°' pressed great alarm at the bare thoughts of Gc )ser- 1 I A air d ' i m• 'e to venturing to touch the Corn-laws—he says--, - ° to ee; e say that this Government (then in opposition) nies n e, n ee P up the Corn-laws to the manufacturers—the expert' d , t hat has laid before us has altered his views, and he 6fl ees ses s these Corn-laws are not so beneficial, and he now P"7,0 9 / fixed duty. My Lords, it is not a statesrnanlik!...it ig to give preference to one class over anothe r eal to • neither a statesmanlike, or a correct view' the H I dpi OW that one class of the community better dese rve ence or protection of the Parliament of Englan d' ono Oo one of the old-fashioned individuals who think tha - he t our old writers taught more practical wisdom than 1 3 Chil d statesnien are practising or pursuing. Sir Josiakon used the memorable words—" Land and trade are ;t ove r gether, and together must wax or wane, so that shall be well with land but trade's the betterthiur t ee wherever trade shall suffer, land shall fall." diction be as classical—though I infinitely Pr e Huntingdon address—(Laughter)--I won't sto e p w. t o v i. t ee quire, but this I will say, that that is a sound to coin' subject, and the last member of it ought above a r be mend the attention of the House—that it shall nr oro, to with trade but land too shall fall. Now; mY ato toil rerheit.tef show you what trade has done for you—aYe, an d I°- it even to the test of the price of the commoti_iitoYd";thers only recite the price of wheat. For certain Fe' the P rice ': was a bounty of 55., which must be deducted ft;?T,. 1 . 0 ., am now about to recite. For 50 years from iu t; . accession to the year 1773, the average price of we_ as 2 9 .. English market, deducting the bounty of sa; _2" 6f2 ,. ea The average price of 56 years, ending in 182% tog s rea s . o t r: Deducting the 20 years from 1800 to 1820, temtpuLcd s o e s that they were periods of the currency being. tr. a theg t Y c Yee ' and therefore years of fluctuation —deducting ,_ ie the pri it it made the price 52s.—which was exactly d !,07,, ,that . of grain before the year 1773. So se, s Josiah Ch"c"_o3. shall never be ill with land but trade shall suffer, a 12,!.389 individuals, and the Chamber of Commerce of r.ieweastle-on-Tyne, for a total repeal of the Corn-laws. , . lord BROUGHAM presented petitions to the , !a!ne.'effect f rom . S tour b r id ge , Sollihill, Henworth, ;'rest Bromwich, and St. Peter's Ward, Birming lam. He held i n hi s h an d a num b er of other petitions to the same effect, with the names of which he weuld not trouble their Lordships. Among others was a petition from a most respectable body of their fellow-citizens, the electors, and non-electors of the borough of Marylebone, signed by many thou sn d persons. 'He had also seventeen petitions to the same effect from various places, but he would not trouble their Lordships with reading their names ; one one of them w a s f r om Carlisle. He had also a petition signed by sixteen thousand inhabitants of Birmingham assembled at a public meeting, who afterwards signed that petition. That meeting did not come to a resolation in favour of the present petition— ( Hear, hear, from the Oposition benches)—but he would shortly show that it was so inuch the worse for the opponents of the Repeal of the Corn-laws. Thoie who opposed the petition were any thing but friends. to the Noble Lords opposite, fur they went a great deal further than the 16,000 who had signed the petition. They took their ground, and de- tided that until extensive Reforms were effected ill Parliament, there was no use in petitioning either that or the other House. He was happy to say, however, that 15,000 or 16,000 respectable per son 3 differed with them, and still had confidence in Par liament, and still were ready and willing to trust their case in their Lordships' hands. He had petitions a!so to present from the great town of Liverpool, signed by twenty-five or twenty-six thousand inhabi tants to the same cffact. This was agreed upon at a public tretiog, :Ind he believed with no dissentient. It was to be prvseitte.l by a Noble Earl connected with York titire.and Northaraptonshire,but who had been pr ,vented, lvateident, presenting it, but whose opinions entirely '*eel with it, The Noble and Learned -Lord then Lord, in rising— Lord 'VERNON--1 have some petitions to present. Lord BROUGH.A.NI-1 made a pause in order to eb!e Lords to present their petitions and ask However I gave no objection to wait for ~e. • ~'~t ~tio:a. Lord VERNON then presented a petition from .;:•Iper, in the neighbourhood of Derby ; from thv , yor, Aldermen, and Town Council of Stockport ; 7,000 inhabitants of Stockport, pra3 ing to -d by their Counsel and Agents against syst-An of Corn-laws. Ile would Ice that opportunity, if it was not detaining "- and Learned Lord or the House to correct a mistake which had been made as what he did last week. He had the honour pre-- ging a petition from the Mayor and Corporation of praying for the total repeal of the Cunt-laws. -ort, Viliich appeared of it, it was stated to he pi . eJetit too loci le the r from ;lie 01Neweastle ; how such a mistake arose he (lid nut know, unless it was because a Noble nl of his had presented a petition Immediately before him from Newcastle. He would net have taken any notice of the mistake, only it was liable to give rise to ;to opinion that petitions were carelessly ated ire Ci 4 t House. CORN-LAWS. Lord BROUGHAM said—My Lords, is rising to addle..sa your Lordships on this very important subject, whidi occupies the minds of all men out of doors, and winch, I may add, occupies no small shire of the interests and attentions of this House, 1 conicss I have considerable difficulty in performing the task 1 uotlertoek, and very great uneasiness at the proTeet I bare of standing before you, opposed in ne common tneasure to strong feelings among many of you, and to very great—and 1 will add, with all possible respect—l am almost sure groun't lees apprehensions. It has often been my lot whether at that bar, or upon your bench, in the dis charge of professional duties, or standing here as a I'eer of the Realm, to d e li ver m y own individual opi nions—it has oftentimes been my lot to state things which were distasteful to this House—(Cries of " IL'ar")—when I knew that my statements differed from your Lordships' opinions. I have sometimes gone against strong, conscientious, deeply-rooted convictions, grounded on principle. I have at other times been compelled, by a sense of my duty, imperative and un yieldiug on me, to run counter to what you deem the interests of the mass.—(Hear.) But on the present occasion I feel that both these antagonist princi ples and feelings are working against me, and that you think you have an interest in opposing this, and that if you do not succeed you fail in performing a duty. Little then should I think I should ever discharge my duty if I did not know, that there is in this House, and I trust always will be in this House, the highest Court of Judicature in the country—the gravest and most. dispassionate Senate in the country— a body of the most enlightened men that adorn a nd, fortify the Constitution. who never will rashly. de..iide on behalf of any proposition without hearing it thoroughly discussed, but who still less even will de cide against any proposition without giving those who proposed it the most ample and impartial, and dahhoPate, and calm hearing upon its real merits. 'MA you should reject a proposition only calling upon you to hear—that you should say " no " to a prayer only preferred to consider and examine—that with out hearing what can be said, and urged, ani proved, you should turn your backs upon the prayers of the people—that when evidence is tendered at your bar upon oath to propositions of fact •• of the most alarming importance to the highest interests of the country —you, this high Court of Judicature— you, this grave Senate—you, this body of reflecting, accomplished, learned, and deliberative men, should at once say " the matter is important, but we will not hear it—le propositions of fact which you offer to prove are grave in their consequences, aye, in their nature, perilous in their possible re ti but we won't hear a tittle of the evidence which you say you are prepared to give on your oath." My Lords, I will not believe it, till you yourselves tell tee the impossibility, and that it is true. There fore it is, my Lords, I feel less anxiety now, than I did when, a few minutes ago, I rose to commence my address to you, for I now feel fortified by the conviction that that is impossible, and that you never will tell me that that is true..—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, I dare to take consolation from another source. lam here to war with no interest. THE SUN, LON DON, TUI4_ I 4S DA EDITION,-FEBRUARY' 19, 1839. s( amity in 1796-3earcity in 1801, and in the begin ginning of the depreciation are all such distorbing causes, that I pass over those 15 years, because I have no right to argue on them. Now what was it in the n( xt years, that I am going to call the at tention of your Lordships to—from 1315 to 1838 ? lam now going to the fluctuation in each year, and the year in which there was the least fluc tuation it was not 41- per cent., but 11,1 per cent. under the influence of the steady operation—the equalizing operation of the Corn-laws, for it was after the year 1615 when the late Corn-law Bill—Sir Henry Parneli's Liii—had passed the House of Commons. What think you, my Lords, was the greatest fluctuation under the same steady, poising, equi-poising, regulating fluence of the Corn-laws, those being the pur poses of the Bid ? Not 4. per cent., as it v.-tis before the Corn-laws—not even 114 per cent., as it was in the last year, but 944 per cent.? Here was a fluctuation in price of near 100 per cent, during one year, on the same commodity, and that commo dity the prime necessary of life! The Marquis of LANSD 0 WNE—What year was tlrat ? Lord BROUGHAM—I think it was the next sear after those two important laws had passed, but I will tell you in a moment, I have a memorandum of it. It c a; in 1816, awl the fluctuation was 94. The Marquis of LANSDO under the i,.Lence of the depreciation. Lord BROUGHAM—StiII under the influence of the depreciation. Now whether that was a very v:ell-eowddered remark of the Noble Marquis, your Lordships will judge.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Tile depreciation was the same in the beginning of the S ear as h was in the end—the depreciation was through out the whole of the year 1816. Mr. Peel's Bill was in 1819, and there was not one farthing difference in any one month of that year, from January the Ist to December the :31st. How could depreciation make prAn fluctuate ? If there was a going up and down of bullion—if the pound note was worth 21s. in one year, and 20s. in another year. The Duke of WELLINGTON—An alteration in ,e currency. Lord BROUGHAM—If the ounce of gold 117td ris'en from 31. 18s. 10id. to 41. 105. at one period of the 3 - tar, and had gone down to 31. at another period of the year, no doubt my Noble Friend would be quite right ; but was there any such alteration as that ? I remember the bullion question well enough to be certain that during the whole of the year 1816 —though I am quite aware flere was a contraction of issu , ?,s, I venture to say, yiCmut the slightest hesitation, it ;sill be f nn.l there :::ver was from the beginning to the end of that year hove three or four shillings difference at the outside twtween the Mint and market price, from January to December. Duke of WELLINGTON. What does tha make ? Lord BROUG H AM.—I will show that instead of making 95 per cent. it does not make 20 per cent., so that I will m eke you a present of all above 70. So that there is 70 per cent. variation instead of 4i percent., which it was before the enactment of the Corn-laws. But I am going to read to your Lordships other sums, because that is an extreme case and it is not worth while to argue on extreme C'ISC3. The Noble Duke thinks there was a rest alteration in the issue of bank paper in 1317. Now, in the year 1817 the fluctuation was 72 per cent. That is enormous ; half as much again, or half as little. The next year it wet 16 per cent., then 23 per cent., then 36 par cent. Now then comas the year 1820, and I am glad we have got to the year 1820, because it clears away all doubt as to the fluctuation being attri butable to the currency. The market price and the Mint price of bullion had, ever since Mr. Peel's 8111, been 3/. IBs. 10: 1 2 -d. per ounce. Now, I entreat your Lordships' attention to the fluctuation of the price of rain. The fluctuation in 1821 was .53 per cent. ; in 1822 it was 32 per cent ; and what do you think wa• the fluctuation in the price of grain in 1823, which was not a year of scarcity, and when the currency was stead) ? It was enormous -561 per cent. In 182.5 it was 13 per cent. ; in 1826 it was 13 per cent.," and yet one would have thought that if ever there would be a fluctuation, it would be in those two years, 1825 and 1826—one being a year of great speculation, and the other of great distress ; but no such thing—it was 13 per cent., clearly showing, therefore, it must depend on something else. Then, in 1828 it was 46 per cent. ; in 1829, 33 par cent. ; in 1830, 30 per cent. ; and so on, till you get to 1836 ; and in 1836 it was no less than 71 per cent., although .he year 1836 was not a year of scarcity. The ports were all shut—the Corn-laws were in full operation. The ports were shut from 1832 to 1838—there was to be no fluctuation, it was said, under the Corn-laws, and yet it was at 71 per cent. Now, then, we will take it from year to year. The first Corn-law Bill of Mr. Western's was passed in 1804 ; and one of the great ar guments urged in its favour was, Via if we did not have cheap bread, we should have steady prices. In the next year 1805 it was 30 per cent., 22, 46, 50—so it goes on. 1 purposely avoid going upon those years, because those were years of great depreciation. There never eras such a difference bet Ween the issue, either an over issue of bank paper, or a contraction of bank paper, so as to make anything like those enormous variations in prices. Now, my Lords I have stated—what I am prepared to prove by , the evidence of Witnesses—l have stated to your Lordships the tifects of those Corn-laws in preventing or exacerbating the great evil of fluctua tion. My Lords, I certainly am one of those who attach the very highest importance to steadiness of price. It is not only a pre-eminent convenieaT to all mankind in their dealings to know exactly the amount. of prices—it is not only of the first importance to all mercantile men for guiding their conduct and governing their speculations in trade—to manufacturers especially, who employ hundreds and even thousands of hands, and when it reached a higher price the ports closed —I beg your Lordships' pardort. When corn was at a certain high price the ports were opened ; when it fell to a certain price the ports were closed. Now I am here to offer proof that all the objections which have ever been urged to that mode, and they are not a few in number—l am here to prove that all those objections apply to the present different, and falsely sup posed, improved law. By this measure, instead of open ing the ports when corn was high absolutely, and shutting them when they were lower absolutely, it affixed a certain scale, taken by the average of a certain number of towns in which there seemed to be a considerable corn trade—taking the average every week, it estimated the admission of foreign corn thus : when the average was 735. or upwards in those districts, there was no prohibition—it was not by tray of prohi bition, but it was done by duty. When the price was up at 735. and upwards then the duty was ono shilling. When it was 70s. we will say to go a little lower I think the duty was 10s. Bd., when it was 655., the d u ty was 21s. Bd., when it was 635., the duty was Si., Lord MELBOURNE.—I do not think that is quite correct. Lord BROUG H A M.—lt is perfectly immaterial to my argument whether that is correct or not. When the price is 603., then the duty is 265. Bd.; and when it is 50s. the duty is 365. Bcl, so that when the price is lowered, the duty rises down to 455, when it. is equal to the price of the article itself. Now, my first proposition is that there is no difference between the present and the former law, and I shall slew this by the most indisputable testi mony. I shall shah that there is no difference between the operation of one plan and the other. Now only ob serve Forcini wheat is at a certain price, to which, if you add the transport and all other expenses, and make the whole sum equivalent to the condition at which you al!ow Foreign wheat to come to your own markets, there is a price at which it will not bear a duty. Suppose the average price of wheat advancing should be 365. at Dantzic, which has frequently been the case, as I shall prove abundantly, foe a certain course of years 355. was the average price at Dantzic—l can prove that the cost of con veying from Dantz'c, harbour dues, insurances, landing, and carrying it to the nearest market, amounts to 10s. Gd., consequently 455. is the price at which that wheat can fie sol,! at your market. I state this as mere detai!, for this reason, because, in a subsequent part of my statement, I shall show that those who think that the markets are levered by the admission of foreign grain blue greatly exaggerated the quantity of supply, and the cheapness at which it can be got ; but then I am ready to show to the House that 465. Gd. is the average price at which corn is sold in this market. Suppose the price to be 70s. here, then the duty being 18s. 31, that must be added to it, and it will make it near 80s. Suppose it cd!s to 655., then the duty is 21s. 81. At what price then will it be? Why, then, it will be equal nearly to the selling price. That duty shuts the ports ; it is above the price at which it is selling in your market, and consequently t►he corn that comes over and is so excluth d here, goes into bond, all below that is exclusion just as much as it was by the Bill of 1804. For all above seventy shillings the ports are open as in the Bill of 1815—you have therefore this stare of things in principle, :ml I am now to open to your Lord,hips, and which I n.iil prove upon the oaths of those who have felt the inconvenieece of the state of things, aye and of persons who have been ruined by those consequences continuing, and rk ill ever continue to feel those coesequenees are the same with those they dread, and the experience of which drove you from the p:inciples of 1834, and made you take refuge in your new plans of 1815, and 1338. Now, I have, I think, explained generally the nature of the plan, and I may now solicit the attention of the House to those consequences, and what is occurring every hour, arid which must occur until some alteration is made in the present existing law. I will assume, for argument sake, that the corn trade is a traffic that de serves to be encouraged. I will assume that you look generally to a supply of foreign corn. I will assume that, for some reason or other, you think we should not be always confined to the corn of our own country—why do I assume all this ? For this reason—becaUse your Bill assumes it ; your Act of Parliament assumes it, even the Bill of 1804 assumes it, for nobody excludes or attempts to exclude foreign corn altogether. It is admitted when corn is high, or that is to say, to avoid scarcity, you do not look to your own resources, but to the foreign growers. Foreign corn is excluded when corn is lower, because, you rely then upon you own resources, but admitting corn at any price shews, that we look occasionally for foreign support. Now having put my foot upon that pasitioo, from which it is immoveable, because it is the Act of Parliament, it is the system I am grappling with that gives me that position—l now ask whether it does not follow, as a matter of course, that the corn trade ought to be the object of encouragement ? You meant to encourage it. —you thought that the former Act discouraged it too much, and, therefore, as an object deserving the encou ragement, you favoured it by the change of the law, partly in the year 1815, but chiefly in the year 1814. Now I am about to demonstrate to you—first, to show by .reasoning, because it is probable, in order that I may get rid of the first answer, viz., that that cannot be proved at all, for it is utterly impossible. lam first going to show you by argument it is probable, and then to tender my evidence to show it is true in point of fact, that this system is fatal to the Corn trade. I won't abate one jot of my posi tion. I won't be satisfied with convincing any man it is only hurtful to him—l won't be satisfied with proving, on the oaths of a cloud of witnesses ready and anxious to come to the bar to state it—some of them who have suffered themselves, but hope it may prove a warning to you, and be the means of saving their brethren from following their fate—but I won't be satis fied in proving, either from their oaths or my arguments, that it is only very pernicious to the Corn-trade—l will take nothing unless I demonstrate first—the probability, and then by evidence the certainty that the Corn trade is destroyed by this system. Now, my Lords, only suppose one case, and that carries with it the great part of my argument. Suppose merchants, upon grain being up at 725. or 735., and the duty therefore being down at ls., suppose merchants, three or four, join in a venture, and for the purpose of supplying a certain number of quarters of grain, 40 or 50,000 quarters of grain, they ship at Dantzic or Malta,where the price is42s.