The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-23 00:00:00

TITE_ STY:N, LON'DON, SATII-RDAY EVENIN • G, MARCH ge, 1844. partreent, who asked whether they would apply the axe i by the superior economy, energy, and management of the to the root of the commercial b e-reatness of the country? people of this country. All that had been cone consis - His Noble Friend talked of applying it to the root of the ' tently, with a gradual and steady amelioration, such as moral evil ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman altered the the present Bill offered, in the condition of the application of the expression as used by his Noble Friend. younger branches of the community. He believed But was it possible that the commercial greatness of this that the worst enemies to the country generally, country depended on keeping children at work twelve and above all to those operative classes which were de hours, instead of ten? In 1833 a gentleman, in whose serving of their best regards, were those nho, through political sentiments he did not coincide—the late Mr. mistaken zeal. would allow themselves to follow blindly Cobbett—said he had heard of the greatness of the coun- any impulse of humanity, without having carefully con try depending, on some occasions, on the learned pro- sidered its consequences.—(Cheers.) He firmly be fessions, on °fifer on able statesmen ; but he had never lieved that they were doing all that they could to de before heard of its consisting in working little girls two prive the operative class es of this countr y of that which, hours a day. He could not see, as stated by the Right more than charity or legislative protection, constituted Hon. Gentleman, hOw a diminution of 25 per cent. their real good—he meant the commercial prosperity of would result from a remission of one-sixth of the labour. that country.—(Cheers.) —(Hear, hear.) He could not see how the diminution Mr. BROTHERTON said that this question had could amount to more than the diminution of time.— agitated the country for twenty-eight years, and it was (Hear, hear.) Even if it were the fact, which he did high time that it should be set at rest. He certainly not believe it was, that the manufactures of the country concurred with the Noble Lord the Member for Dorset would be perilled by the ten hours' system, yet he was shire as to the limit of ten hours. He mi g ht be mis not prepared to say that the moral aspect was not to ne taken in his view, which perhaps was contracted on preferred to the commercial one.—(Hear, hear.) the subject, but still he thought that humanity, morality, When they were told that the children were brought and sound poliey, supported his vie*, and on those up decrepit and depraved, he doubted whether the corn- grounds he justified the vote which he had given the mere al view should not give weight to the consideration other evening, and which he was prepared to renew which would remedy this state of things.—(Hear.) If on the present occasion. And he thought there was a there was a loss in wages to the workmen he would departure from principle in legislating upon this subject. make it up to them by more healthy and vigorous con- He was of a different opinion from the Inspectors of stitutions and by a higher tone of moral feeling.— Factories, and others well acquainted with the matter were (Hear.) It had been asked how the workmen were to of opinion that human labour in connection with machinery live. He would say there was no danger of starving in was not free labour. Besides, they had already inter this country.—(" Oh, oh," and Hear , hear.) H e be- fered. Before there was any legislative interference it lieved that those who received the highest wages were was customary for factories to work fourteen or fifteen not the most moral or the most provident.—(lronical hours a day; and. Lord Kenyon, in the year 1819, stated cheers.) He had only stated what he had been told. in the House of Lords that the factories of Lancashire His object would be to put every person on such a foot- worked fourteen hours and a half a day. Thus, when ing that pie might get as good wages as he could.— there was no legislation there excessive labour was car (Cheers.) That met with a general assent, and it ought vied on. It was said, too, that if trade was perfectly to be the object which every wise legislator should have free and unrestricted in factories, there would be no de in view. The present system had been productive of a mand for legislation. Why, in the years 1835, 1836, vicious state of society. Men were now supported by their and 1837, when trade was rather brisk, there were no wives and children, which induced them to make early less than 3,000 convictions for infractions of the Fac marriages. He thought great confusion had been intro- tories Act, and the penalties paid amounted to 6,0001 duced into the debate, in consequence of the course Even now, at the present moment, they found females adopted by the Government. The decision of the and married women working fourteen hours a day. It House of Commons had been already twice come to on was said that it was wrong to lay any restrictions upon the subject, and if the Government had a majority on labour. He reminded Hon. Gentlemen that a restyle the present debate, there would be two conflicting deci- tion was laid on labour in one case, at least, by the very sions. A 'case better decided he did not know in the highest authority, " Six days shalt thou labour, and on course of his Parliamentary career. They now sought to the seventh thou shalt rest." That was a law directly change the opinions of their usual supporters, but not opposed to the political economist.—(Hear, hear.) If a single independent supporter of the Government they carried out their principle to its highest extent, went with them on the late decision. and if they found that fourteen, fifteen, or sixteen hours . _ Mr. CARDWELL said that he had endeavoured to possess himself of the real merits of the question now before the House, and although he had not the good for tune of coming to the same conclusion as the Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) and could not,, therefore, give his vote on what he knew was the popular side of it, yet he begged to assure the Noble Lord and the Committee that the main object present to his mind in coming to a sound conviction on the subject, had been not to come to any conclusion which would impede the growing prosperity of the great operative classes of this country.—(Hear, hear.) In reference to the public this subject had been remarkably divided into two sides, one sustaining the commercial view of the subject, and the other resting almost entirely on the basis of humanity and morality. An Hon. Gentleman adopted an illustration which he believed was not new from him ; it had been taken he believed from the classical historian of Manchester, who said that those engaged in manufacturing pursuits "passed through the fire to Moloch, and through filth to Mammon." Such was the language addressed to those who felt called on by their convictions to vote against him on this subject. He did not deny that it was possible to take the commercial view of the subject alone, and that there might be sordid men, who would extract as great an amount of wealth as they could, regardless of the sufferings of ethers. He admitted that such a view of the case might be taken, but he denied that it was possible, from the nature of the case, for any person who looked at the subject with judgment, and applied his mind firmly to its consideration, to leave out the commercial view of the subject altogether, and rest it solely on morality and humanity.—(Cheers.) Was it possible for persons who had the least experience on the subject, or who, having no experience, possessed an or - dinary capacity, and applied it diligently to the consi deration of the case, to take a view regarding solely the physical :and moral well-being of the operative, and leaving out from his consideration the commercial view, / which so deeply affected the interests of the operative classes themselves ?—(Hear, hear.) He would ask the! House to consider how largely the operatives of the coin munity were benefited by the prosperity of British com-i merce.—(Hear, hear.) In proportion to the resultsj affected by it, how trifling was their most extensive! charity?—(Cheers.) In proportion to it, how meagre was their best contrived legislation? He said, there fore, that to talk for a single moment of taking , the view of the question apart from commer- / cial considerations, and resting it on the basis of humanity and morality, was not becoming the dignity of the House of Commons.--(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He begged of them to beware, lest, by opposing a Ten Hours' Bill, they might not give occasion to those for whose benefit he knew it was intended most to bitterlyrue it.--(Hear.) In legislating on this subject, there were two objects which they must be most desirous of combining. One was that they should give really efficient protection to those who, from their tender years,- were incapable of protecting themselves ; the other was, that they should leave free as the winds of heaven, to the judgment, management, and economy of th 6 individuals themselves, the labour of those who were capable of protecting themselves—(Hear, hear) — that labour which, as had been so often observed, was the only property they possessed.—(Cheers.) He found that her Majesty's Government, in the Bill which they had laid on the table of the House, endeavoured to effect these two objects—the protecting of those who wanted protection, and the leaving of freedom to those who were capable of protecting themselves.—(Hear.) He did not think that to effect those two objects was wholly incompatible. The best arrangements which could possibly be made was that which would combine those two objects. They had endeavoured to limit the hours of labour for children to such an amount that after devoting sufficient time to labour they would be 'able to employ the remaining hours of the day in securing a good system of education. The Hon. Gen tleman had spoken of a system of relays. Now he (Mr. Cardwell) had to complain of the caution which was observed in speaking of the subject of relays. Were they driving at a uniform Ten Hours' Bill?—{Hear.) That was a question which pressed itself very much on his mind in considering the subject. He might be told that the Noble Lord had said nothing about relays. If he (Lord Ashley) intended that relays should be corn. bined with a ten hours' system, he had no right to say that he had the feeling of the large body of the mill owners with him. He (Mr. Cardwell) knew that many persons who came here in deputations said that what they wanted was a uniform Ten Hours' Bill.—(Hear.) Were they prepared to put this in practice?—(Hear.) Let them take care that they would not leave the great proportion of the children in this country in a touch worse position than they were at present.—(Hear.) He should be extremely reluctant to cast the slightest aspersion on the motives of any individual, but he must say he honestly believed that the persons in that House who advocated the view of the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire, did so with the utmost sincerity and the purest philanthropy, but at the sanie time they deceived themselves. He begged them to consider what would be the effect of a Ten Hours' Bill. The effect would be that the adults would do less and the children more work. Of the wages earned a larger portion would be screwed out of the sinews of the young than from those of the adult. That was a result ag ainst which, on groun d s o f mora li ty an d humanity, the Committee was bound to guard with the utmost possible vigilance. In seeking for a Ten Hours' Bill they were not seeking for a practical measure, and true humanity was always practical. The proposal, therefore, which was now brought forward, with no doubt the best intentions, was not founded upon true humanity. On the subject of reduced wages he had heard most strange doctrines.—(Cheers and counter-cheers.) From the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last he was at a loss to learn whether he thought low or high . wages better. The conclusion which he (Mr. C.) should have drawn from the Hon. Gentleman's observa tions, if he were allowed to apply to them the common principles of logic, was, that in low wages, there was a protection against profligacy and improvident management (Opposition cheers and laughter).— and that they would promote the social virtues in a very great degreo—(Hear, hear)—and that they were a great good:which the House in its wisdom should take upon itself to effect. But he was astonished to hear the Noble Member for Dorsetshire sp eak of wages as if they were measur e d i n direct math em at ical proportion to the number of hours during which the operative worked.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon * Gentleman weretleman 'who spoke last made the same mistake. measured by a different standard. They were paid out of the profits of the establishment. Without profits there could be no wages, and unless a set of philanthropists were found to under take the trade and commerce of the country, it must be assumed that there should be some profit. Then it was quite clear that if they took away part of the profit they took away from the wages. They had it from high authority, that th e re d u ction in wages would be 25 per cent., and he (Mr. C.) had no hesitation in believing that it would reach that amount. Another question which Hon. Gentlemen forgot was, that of machinery. In these days- of improvement, machinery, if not worn out, became useless, and was obliged to be renewed in a few years. This part of the subject, however, he only ad verted to in passing. The Hon. Gentlemen who spoke last talked of workmen being repaid for the loss in their wages by an increase of health. Now, his expe rience showed him that when there were low wages, there were also always numerous complaints of suffering • and though they had o ft en heard of com binations doperatives to obtain a fair day's wages for a fair day's work, they had never heard of combinations to enforce short hours. Besides, it was to be borne in mind that the operatives who petitioned in favour of ten hours were under the impression that the Noble Lord's proposition would be carried without any reduction in wages at all ; and that Manchester was placarded with the words " Less work—more wages—sign for the Ten Hours' Bill!"—(Hear.) That fallacy was very common. If they thought that we had nothing to fear from fo reign competition they were greatly mistaken, and they would find eventually that under the name of humanity they were inflicting a great cruelty on both operative and master. The commercial prosperity of this country was owing to the paradox, that the master manufacturers paid the lowest wages, and that the operative received the highest wages that any master paid or any operative received in the world. Strange as that might seem to be, it was perfectly true; and the explanation was this, that the master paid more money, but got a greater amount of work, while the workman received so much more money as to enable him to live better than any other operative in the world, That was brought about per day did not enable them to compete with foreign nit , tions, they must then work on the seventh day. Ten hours a day he thought was sufficient for man, woman, or child, and with that length of time it would be found that the business of factories was quite healthy. He was sure that if all worked a moderate time they would have nothing to fear from competition. He might, perhaps, have somewhat different views to many on this subject. He might, perhaps, make admissions which would be laid hold of by those who went for inter minable labour. But he did not care for that. He ad• milted that if they decreased the hours of labour they must increase the cost of manufactures. But, then, the question was who was to bear this ? He had seen a calculation with regard to a particular mill as to the amount which would be lost in consequence of the reduc tion of the hours of labour. Therefore, admitting that there would be a reduction in the amount of wages, it was necessary for gentlemen to see in what way that would operate. They purchased foreign materials, which were manufactured in this country and exported, in competition with foreign manufactures. Now of course the difference between the price of the raw material and the amount which they ob tained for the manufacture when it was exported, was the amount received for labour, interest of capital, and profit. In order, therefore, to compete with foreigners, they continued making improvements in machinery. They had reduced the hours of labour from seventy-seven per week to seventy-two, and from seventy-two to sixty-nine, without, he believed, in juring their commerce. In 1816 they exported ten millions of pounds of cotton twist; in 1843 he believed they exported 113 millions.—(Hear, hear.) But, with regard to the wages of those employed in cotton mills there had been very little difference indeed. For the last fifteen years the money wages had been about the same. He had procured returns of the wages paid in a number of factories in 1832, and he found that the average rate of wages for men, women, and children working in mills was from 9s. 6d. to 12s. per head. He had also got returns in reference to a number of factories in the year 1844, and he found that the average rate of wages was nearly the same, perhaps a little more than in 1832. There was no trade in which wages were so regular as in factories, and this was, because in factories great numbers were collected together. As in the army and in the navy, so here, they could not be altering wages every day. Whether times were brisk or slack, the wages continued about the same. Persons who were employed separately—take, for in stance, the case of the hand-loom weavers were obliged to compete with each other. This naturally lowered wages ; for the manufacturers would say, " The times are bad, and if you cannot take less wages we cannot give you work." In factories, as he had already said, there was very little fluctuation with regard to the wages of persons employed in factories. Now the great end of this legislation was, he conceived, to protect the young ; and this could not be done unless they bad a sys tem which embraced all ages. The reason why the dif ferent Acts which had been passed had always failed of their efficiency was that they had only legislated for children, and for persons of 16 or 18 years of age, whereas the great object was to legislate for all under 21—that there should be one uniform time for all. That was the great object which he had always had in view ; and he believed that legislation of this kind would benefit both masters and operatives. He did not believe that the wages of the operative would be reduced by this measure.—(Hear.) If they were, there was one day in the week on which the operatives worked for the bread tax ; and if they found that they could not com pete with foreigners without taking off that tax, and even the tax upon cotton, they must be prepared to make the necessary sacrifice.(Hear hear.) He thought that great philanthropy had been manifested by Hon. Gentlemen opposite in coming forward to ad vocate this humane measure ; and he thought the whole nation would feel that it was their duty to proceed fur ther, if necessary, by removing all those restrictions and burdens which pressed upon the manufacturing interests. He believed that by passing this Bill they would give satisfaction to the operative classes, and set this question completely at rest, and make the people generally pros perous, contented, and happy. With these views he should certainly vote for the Bill.—(Cheers.) Lord J. MANNERS said it had been his intention to give a silent vote on this Bill ; but after the challenge which had been thrown out by the Hon. Member for Manchester, he could not adhere to his intention. The Hon. Member had asked him if in the short tour which he had made in company with his Hon. Friends, the Members for Canterbury and Sandwich, he saw anything which would bear out the harrowing picture drawn by the Noble Lord, the Member' for Dorsetshire. He had great pleasure in telling him that he did not.—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches.) if the House would permit him to give a general detail of what he saw in visiting these great establishments, he would state that their generd characteristics were a small town of well-built cottages of two stories each, with two rooms on each story, with large windows, with plenty of furni ture, with capacious back-yards, and with an ample sup ply of coal and water—all at a rent of three shillings a week, which, he believed, was generally stopped out of the wages. He saw, besides, most minute supervision in every part of these establishments on the part of the manufacturer. Every shop was licensed by him; everybody was dependent upon him for the exercise of his calling and for his very existence.—(Hear.) He entirely concur red with the Noble Lord (Stanley) as to the difficulty of arriving at anything like sound conclusions as to the sanitary condition of the manufacturing classes, because he was convinced that an appearance of health might exist notwithstanding its absence.—(Hear, hear.) Ruddy cheeks and blooming lips might be produced as well by over excitement as by genuine health. He had no hesi tation in saying that the appearance of the young women in the manufacturing districts was generally healthy. So much for the appearance of the people. He believed that the wages of men, women, and children, averaged 9s. or 10s. a week. Thirty shillings was the income of the inhabitants of a cottage, which would amply pro vide the conveniences and eomforts of existence.— (Hear, hear.) He had thus endeavoured to answer the general challenge of the Hon. Member for Manchester, and he would now proceed to notice a' more particular one. The Hon.. Member asked him if it was true, as had been reported, that they had had some talk with the agricultural immigrants, and he wished to know the re suit of that conversation? Now he (Lord J. Manners) fund, in a brief note which he took at the time, the fol lowing allusion One cottage we entered was that of a woman from Hampshire, with ten children when she came. When asked if she would like to go back, she shook her bead, laughed, and said No.' She was cooking of he dinner n mill . s for wasr her beef and children, —(Hear, should come ear, from the Opposition benches.) Now he was happy to to be enabled to pay wealthy s ai tete of praise to the conduct of those great and ii i i tia. 4 ct il e a s nufaturers whose fac tories he had " Hear, hear.") But he must now remark tl?at -- akar, hear.) H . thus stated did not, in his opinion, militZteatagliinst had IS pro proposal of the Noble Lord. —(gear, was to l,imit the periOd of labour for females and young people to ten hours. His statement was that, owing to the mothers of families being compelled to work twelve hours, that deplorable disorganization and reverse of the order of nature had taken place which he had described with such painful particularity. He be lieved the statements of the Noble Lord to be substan tially correct.—(Hear, hear.) What he had seen in Bolton, contrasted with what he had seen in Turton, showed him how great might be the contrast between_ the spectacles exhibited in two places situated at a short distance from each other. It was said that wages would be reduced if this Bill were passed. Was that the opinion of the three or four hundred manu facturers who had signed the petition in its favour ? He believed that the Committee could wisely, because humanely, accede to the proposition of his Noble Friend, and it should have his hearty and cordial support. He would advise the House to consider what the effect of their decision upon this question would be upon the country. The hour might be at hand when the House would—not only in practice, but in theory and name—cease to be the representa tives of the people of England. He would entreat the House to reflect upon what happened in the last three years. Had they learned nothing from the manufacturing insurrections in the North, and the agrarian insurrection in Wales ?—(Cheers.) Had they learned nothing from the conflagrations in Cambridge, and Suffolk, and other parts of the country ?—(Cheers and counter-cheers.) If the House continued to dis- regard the - Sufferings of their fellow-countrymen, that night would seem to justify those exceSses.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. WARD was of opinion that all the state ments of the Noble Lord tended to bear out the ar guments, Noble mentrd h urged byad said,t those who opposed the motion. r from his own observation, that the habitations of the poor were, in space and airiness, superior to those of the agricultural labourers, and that their' wages averaged ten shillings a head. The Noble Lord had further testified that in the district, which the Hon. Member for Knaresborough represented as a Pan demonium, the people were far better off than in agricultural districts. That was the district in which the Hon. MeMber for Manchester had told them that the immigrants from the agricultural districts said that they would prefer transportation to going back to Buckinghamshire.—(Cheers.) With all these proofs before it, he hoped the Committee would re-consider the decision to which it had come, and that they would so re-coriSider it upon the evidence of the Noble Lord himself as to what he had seen. All were agreed that there was a great pressure upon the labouring popula tion of the country. He could show an infinitely worse case in the town which he represented than any which the Noble Lord had adduced. The children, from stern necessity, and not from avarice, were compelled to la bour from an early age. There was no time for recrea tion—no time for education—no time fur moral training. —(Hear.) It would certainly be better for all classes if the operatives could earn as much in ten hours as in twelve. They did not want Mr. Homer to inform them as to the evils of excessive working. But the pressure was universal—every one was compelled to work.—(Hear, hear.) He was the representative of one of the largest working men's constituencies in this country, and he said that he knew the evil existed, and that it could not be cured by an Act of Parliament. He believed that the proposition of the Noble Lord had given a great impulse to Chartist principles.—(Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.) He believed that all the theories which he had heard in the course of this debate had been previously advocated in the Chartist press, and at those meetings where Mr. Oastler and his party attended. He regretted that the respectable names which were found amongst the leaders of the party to which he was attached had lent their sanction to those doctrines which he had often heard before, but never before from men who were not too ridiculous to be seriously attended to. The Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland did not indeed express an entire concurrence in these doctrines ; but he expressed a modified concurrence with them, and the result would be to associate the concur rence of many respectable political men in that House with the names of mere demagogues out of it. He said afterwards he wished every man to earn as high wages as he could, and contended that a slight curtailment of the hours of labour would not affect them as a class. He (Mr. Ward) must entreat the House to recollect that the home trade of this country was wholly insufficient to supply the slightest, iminution that might take place in the foreign. They were warned the other night by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) that they had to deal with an export trade of forty millions, thirty-six of which belonged purely to the foreign trade of this country; and he, for his own part, was satisfied that in any new curtailment of labour that Committee might authorise, it would be impossible to fill up the gap. They proposed to cut off an amount of production which was equivalent to seven weeks in the year; and it had been said by the sup porters of the curtailment, that in consequence of it new mills would be erected, and new hands be put to work. He (Mr. Ward) very much doubted this. — (Hear, hear.) It must be recollected they had been told that this Bill was only the first step in this sort of legislation, for the Noble Lord (Ashley) and- others, when appealed to, bad admitted that other branches of industry would be subjected to the same process.— (Hear, hear.) Every business which called for their sympathy and assistance was to have it.—(Hear, hear.) And then they were told by the Hon. Member for Old ham (Mr. Fielden) that eight hours was the proper time for work—the proper proportion of the twenty-fonr hours that man should give to labour. But the working man himself went much further than this, for he argued for six hours, for four hours, for two, for one.—(Laughter.) He did not say that the working people advocated getting a liveli hood without labour at all,—but they almost ap proached it. They thought and 'argued that the same amount of wages would in the end be divided amongst them for a few hours' labour as for fourteen.—(" No.") Why, he (Mr. Ward) could show evidence of what he 'said—evidence of the operatives themselves, who main tained that within three months of the passing of that Bill they would get the same wages for ten hours as they now did for twelve, and they calculated on another ad vantage, namely, that there would be the same demand for work as before, and which would call into action many persons whe now did no work at all. And, if ne cessary. they were prepared to require that no person should work for more than nine, or even eight hours ; for they said it was better they should be compelled, by le gislative enactment, to work those hours only, rather than have any persons whatever that did not work at all. —(Hear, hear, from Mr. Ferrand.) Well, then, who would invest capital under such a precarious system as this ? (Hear, hear.) No one !—(Hear, hear.) And the con sequence would be that foreign capital would step in and take the trade which now belonged to us. And as to the working people themselves, they would ultimately place 'them at the mercy of mere capitalists, and they would sharpen the competition which was already too intense.—(l - lear, hear) Nov,. to reverse the decision which the House came to the other evening would certainly have its advantages, but he trusted they should find sense enough in that House which would induce Hon. Members to do manfully that which they ought to do. They must combat the theories now so widely disseminated, not only by indi viduals but by the press, and which were really calcu lated to reverse all the sound notions which had hitherto prevailed upon these subjects.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Ward) found the Government accused by those jour nals, which usually supported them, with being parties to the bringing of the Queen's name into contempt, and with standing between her Majesty and that House which she so ardently wished to grant, by reducing to a proper standard the labour of her sex.—(Hear, hear.) Now, was there a man in that Committee—was there a reasoning man in the country—that believed the Queen could do this?—(Cheers.) The dire necessity for labour over-ruled them all, and their best intentions too.— (Hear, hear.) If a Committee of that House could do this, how was it that the Noble Lord, the Member for London (Lord John Russell) had not attempted the task during the ten years he had been in office?— (Cheers.) He then was responsible for all the unneces sary toil, and anguish, and immorality which had been endured for the last ten years.—(Hear, hear.) If he (Mr. Ward) felt that the House was competent to this task—if even he could indulge the honest hope of it— why he would join with the Noble Lord (Ashley), and go at once, not for a Ten Hours' Bill—for that would he a paltry pittance—but he would go at once for an Eight Hours Bill—he would give at once the means of making up for the misery and long suffering which the manufacturing operatives had gone through.. That would be the rational course. But the House must not stop there. What did they mean to do with agriculture? —(Cheers.) He (Mr. Ward) knew something of these matters—he had seen the miserable shifts to which the labourers had been reduced.—(Hear, hear.) They could not leave them or their wages as they now were, if they determined to interfere with the operatives. As to their power to regulate wages, it was mere nonsense. If they really wished to benefit operative and labourer they must ease the struggle for bread. They could do this, but they would not, fur to their corn-laws they dung as tenaciously as ever. The Noble Lord sometimes taunted (not personally certainly), but classes with a want of humanity, while at the same time he indulged in what he (Mr. Ward) must be allowed to regard as a spurious humanity of his own. Why, he could tell that Noble Lord that a very large portion of his fellow -countrymen looked with ex ceeding suspicion upon him, so long as they saw him voting for that cruel Bill, which enhanced the price of every loaf of bread.—(Loud cheers.) There must be no mincing of these matters.—(Cheers.) He made no accu sations personally against the Noble Lord ; but he and others were not going to stand there to be taunted with inhumanity by those very persons whose votes in that House alone occasioned, by the high price of bread, all those hours of exhausting toil which they affected so feelingly to bewail. As to married females, the Noble Lord had made, as he had done on several other points, great exaggerations. The employment of married fe males in mills was extremely small. He believed that generally they would find in the northern districts of England married females performing their domestic duties. For his own part, he should go with perfect confidence to his constituents, in consequence of the vote, he should give upon the subject.—(Hear, hear.) Sir IL INGLIS then rose to address the House. He believed that never but on the present occasion had there been an instance of Ministers deriving support froni their habitual opponents, and being opposed by those who usually supported them.—(Hear, hear.) The proposition they were now called upon to affirm was this—whether they should rescind a solemn decision of the House to which the Committee had come, after some considerable debate, and to which a larger ma jority had given their support then attended her Ma jesty's late Ministers? (Hear, hear.) He recollected an instance in which a resolution of the House was re scinded, but that was with respect to the malt-tax., That was during the Government of Lord Grey; but then 5,000,0001. could not be sacrificed.—(Hear, hear.) He warned his Right Hon. Friend at the bead of the Government to consider this question well before he decided upon the course he would pursue. They had led thousands to suppose that they would have less labour, and they must take care how they disappointed such expectations. He (Sir R. Inglis) had received statements from Leeds, Brandon, Bolton, Huddersfield, a n r , ti A e I st a h n te c h h oa e tnh s k t e e er r d , n tg n hh d etnf ol other re aplaces,therh e vote a r. in camea T l oflhe people eo h o pi byh . House e t°p e d sst Membersa t e d w t h h o a that voted they Preston, e e e 9 : e and to the Noble gave Le fo rd r the th himselfe i N r o j f o bo y l ref Lord'stlh t e h p a na dart t s h t e o ht proposi tion,ha d taken.—(, Il hi e s itiar,hjhat Hon.r.)Fo r: Friendi m s himself f het present believed, that whether head of the Government remained dth at the head or i whether the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London should be there, or his Noble Friend the Member for Dorsetshire, the Bill was, in fact, car ried.—(Cheers.) It was useless to suppose, whatever majority they might get in that House, that when public opinion was arrayed against the m a Ministry could prevail.—(Hear, hear.) When the Ecclesiastical Bill was before them last year, he urged upon them that they could not carry the Bill, end he told them not to drag their supporters through the dirt, as he was sure a portion of that dirt would stick to them.—(Hear, hear.) The opposition to his Noble Friend might be fora mo ment successful, but ultimately the present Ministers would be compelled to come forward with a Bill em bodying nearly all the propositions of his Noble Friend. —(Hear, hear.) And what would be the effect of that? Why, they would have lost the grace of couicessiong— souls of their fellow-men. They allowed no time, not (Hear.) They were dealing now with the bodies laid even for recreation or education, because the Sunday was looked to for repose and not instruction. He had listened to the speech of the Right Hon. Paronet at the held of the Government, and the Hon. Member for Clithero, but he had heard nothing from them that did not apply equally to the existing law as,to that proposed by his Noble Friend the Member for Dorsetshire. The whole was a question not of principle but degree, and not that only but of time.—(Hear.) The question must be carried, and it did not matter whether it took place in 1844 or 1846. If there was any error in the conclu sions of his Noble Friend, it lay in their hands to rec tify it, as the Bill would not take effect till October, 1844, and it did not attain its minimum till 1846.—(Hear.) In that interval, if it should appear that any error had been committed, they would be able to correct it, for they retained, the power in their own hands. It was his conviction that no such dangerous consequences would ensue, and he believed that any unfavourable conse quences would be more than compensated for by the in creased physical comfort of the labouring population. He believed that the increase in their physical comforts, consequent upon the diminution of the hours of labour, would more than compensate them for the loss of the few hours' extra pay. It had been stated by his Hon. Friend, the Member for Pontefract, that the last two hours of labour must, in the nature of things, be the most unprofitable; and here he came to the factory sta tistics. It appeared that the greater number of accidents to children occurred during the last two hours. The la bourers were exhausted with their toil, and they went through the last two hours of their work nnconsciously. There would, therefore, be a diminution of the number of accidents, in consequence of a diminution of the hours of labour. They had heard, on high authority, of the sufferings of the agricultural population. On Monday, they had been told that even women hail been kept to hard labour in the fields of England for seven or eight hours of a winter's day without changing their clothes. Now he would ask any o ne to p oin t out in what county of England the women laboured in the - fields for eight hours of a winter's day ? An nom. MEMBER—Not of a winter's day. Sir R. H. INGLIS— The whole argument was, that it was during the inclement season of winter. For his part, he believed that the thing was physically impos sible. At all exents, he had never heard of it. But they had not the same power of remedying the suffer ings of the agricultural population. It was not politi cally possible to redress the sufferings of the agricul tural poo'r as they could the .`sufferings of the manufac turing poor. In the case of the manufacturing poor they had the power of regulating the hours of labour by stopping the great machine by which the labour of all the human accessories was regulated. They had not the power of regulating the hours of agricultural labour; and where there was no power there could be no responsibility. They had the power of regulating the hours of labour in the manufactories, and therefore it was their duty to do so.—(Cheers.) He had on former occasions stated his opinion on this subject, and he thanked the Committee for the attention with which they had listened to him.—(Cheers.) Mr. COLLETT and Mr. C. BULLER rose together for the purpose of addressing the Committee, and for some time neither Hon. Gentlemen would give way. There were loud calls for Mr. C. Buller. After the lapse of about a miuute both Hon. Gentlemen sat down, but im mediately afterwards both rose together again. There were loud cries of " Buller," "Buller," " Chair, Chair," and the greatest uproar and confusion pre vailed. Mr. Hawes, who had previously been in com munication with Mr. Collett, then advanced to Mr. C. Buller and said something, in consequence of which Mr. C. Buller resumed his seat, but the cries of " Buller" " Buller," still continuing, he rose again and advanced•to the table ; Mr. Collett, however, continued on his legs. The cries of '" Chair, Chair," then .became general throughput the House. and Sir C. Napier addressed some words to the Chairman, which were inaudible. At length after a lapse of four minutes, during which time Mr. Collett and Mr. C. Buller retained their respective positions, Mr. Collemgave way, and Mr. C. BULLER proceededto address the Committee. He said that her Majesty's Government were going to night to adopt the extraordinary step of calling on the House, on the eighth clause of the Bill, to make the Bill nonsense by nullifying the vote to which they had come on Monday.—(Hear, hear.) Now it was the duty of the 'Government, before taking such an extraordinary step, at the earliest, possible moment to lay before theni the grounds upon which they called upon them to . adopt such a proceeding.—(Hear, hear.) He had expected that if the Government had intended to make the House rescind the vote of Monday night, that they would have brought forward some new argu ments, but they had brought forward none. They had left everything in doubt except their determination, if possible, to rescind the vote of Monday night. He had to state the grounds upon which he intended to repeat the vote which he had given on Monday night, and he had to grapple with the arguments of one Member only who had risen on the opposite side, and, in doing so, he was undertaking no easy task, for seldom on a question so exhausted had he heard a speech containing arguments of such novelty and such force—(Cheers)—and he could assure the Hon. Member that, in making that statement, he was paying no unmeaning compliment ; for he could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he had put his argu ments so ably as to elicit more than one cheer from him self (Mr. C. Buller). He had also to grapple with the speech of his Hon Friend the Member for Sheffield. That speech was remarkable not so much for the strength of the arguments as for the strength of the language.— (Cheers and laughter.) His Hon. Friend seemed most sensitive to the charg.es made against those who took the course which he had taken. He complained of the lan guage which had been used regarding those who enter tained similar opinions to himself. He complained that all who voted with him had been described as destitute of the common feelings of humanity. Now he entirely acquitted his Hon. Friend of any such charge. He gave him credit for as much humanity as any Hon. Member who voted on the other side ; but, in return, he asked his Hon. Friend to give those who voted against him credit for something like a little. common sense. Those who were going to vote ought to show they did vote upon principle. If the Noble Lord's proposition was wrong, and was carried into operation, it would very seriously interfere with the staple interests of the country, with the employment of a large portion of the people, and with the absolute security and maintenance of millions.—(Hear, hear.) The Legislature must in tere notwitstanding. The evil was great, and must be grappled with—the mischief was frightful in its nature and extent, and was so acknowledged even by those who opposed it. The peace and prosperity of the country — its many institutions, were perilled--and, if the Legis. lature did not interfere, it must be subdued.—(Hear, hear.) The old principles of legislation must in this instance be departed from. He avowed his willingness to depart from those principles. New circumstances had arisen, and they required new re medies. The social state had undergone a revolution, and must, he repeated, be legislated for upon new prin ciples. He was prepared to enter into these new prin ciples, and to defend them against those who advocated the old principles of legislation , which left the people to shift for themselves, and did not apply to that new state of things, which existed since the revolution, which the course of time had effected.—(Hear, hear.) He would briefly state the grounds upon which he formed this opi nion. The important social change which had taken place could be hardly exaggerated, and he would venture to say that no man, whatever his opinions on this subject might be, could contemplate the present condition of the people without amazement and dread. A hundred years ago, the great mass of the labouring population were agri cultural labourers, scattered over the country without any means of communicating with each other, without intelligence or the means of acting in concert, without combination or centralisation ; but they were restrained by adherence to old institutions, and acted under the guidance of those whose authority was sanctioned by hereditary power, and (he felt happy to say) by hereditary attachment. The towns were thinly popu lated ; but the citizens, for the most part, possessed a comparative' degree of intelligence, and were able to protect themselves. But a new race had arisen within the last fifty years. Millions of men were collected together within a small space, for the first time—an immense competition grew up between unskilled la bourers, who worked from the first moment they could work until they could work no longer.—(Hear, hear.) The greater part of this population consisted, as he had already said, of unskilled labourers, which was the cause of the extraordinary 'pressure. Wages were beaten down, not by masters, but by competition their numbers prevented them from combining , and' with all these phenomena together, and without those influences which formerly bound the population together, let him ask the House could they look on this state of things without deep con cern?—(Hear, hear.) He would not represent the fac tory labourer as crippled or disabled ; nor would he say anything offensive to the master manufacturers, for he believed there were a great many among them who dis charged the relations between man and master in a very becoming manner, and who exhibibited the greatest benevolence and forethought. No man could look at the physical condition of the people, and say it was as it ought to be.—(lifear, hear.) He would confine himself to one or two great statistical facts. Let them look to the labourers in Dorsetshire and Wiltshire, who ave raged 33 years, and contrast it with the average of life in the manufacturing districts—in Manchester, for in stance, where the average of human life did not exceed 17 years.--(Hear, hear.) He did not say this by way of attributing blame to-the naillowners, but he men tioned the appalling fact, as imperatively demanding the interference of the Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) The brevity of human lif e in th e m anufacturing districts did not arise from casualties, or from epidemics, but from the physical condition of the people, from over-exer tion, and from causes connected with labour.—(Hear; hear.) Further than this, the present condition of the people in those districts must lead to a de terioration of the physical strength and moral habits of their children.—(Hear.) The mere temperature in these factories was most injurious to the human con stitution. He had been visiting some of the factories in the north of England a few months ago, and he found the temperature there most inconvenient and un pleasant to himself. It was an Indian, a tropical cliMate, in those factories and could not but be injurious to the human frame. On passing through one of these facto -, ries, he was greatly surpr i se d at no t seeing any males— they were all females ; and Lord Ashley had justly observed upon the order of things being reversed in these districts ; that the women and children did the work of the men, who subsisted in idleness on their labours. The relations which bound the higher and lower orders toge ther in other part s o f t h e coun t r y, did not exist there. They were witho u t re li g i ous or lit e rary instruction, and their condition es p ec i a ll y ca ll e d f or the interference of the landed prop r i e t ors o f E ng l an d, whose especial duty it was to inte r f ere . M r. M'Culloch was no sentimen talist, and yet h e s h oo k hi s h ea d g ravely at the present state of things, and sa id t h ey required a change. In such a state of circumstances, it was the positive ditty 'of the Legislature to interfere; and they would be neglecting their duty if they did not. Now, what was the state of things in Lancashire? What did Mr. Horner say? Why he said that between twenty and thirty young men were employed as piecers, at wages from Bs. to 9s. a week, while in the same mill there were girls of eighteen years of age employed at 11 s. and 12s. a week.—(Hear, liter.) The Noble Lord had shown that more girls wera employed than male adults, and it was therefore clear that they would have a large portion of the adult population to fall back upon. He did not know what the Hon. Gentleman opposite meant when he asked whether this was to be a Ten Hours' Bill, and then went on to argue that they could increase the labour of the children in the same propor tion that they diminished that of the men. A great many charges had been brought against. the supporters of the Noble Lord's motion, but, for Heaven's sake, let them only deal with those charges which could be fairly brought against them. He perfectly admitted that the argument used on the other side was perfectly sound that humanity should give way to the commercial and financial interest of the country. Of course it stood to reason that it would be unwise to shorten the hours of labour with the certainty of depriving the operative po pulation of employment altogether. Now, how did the lion. Gentlemen opposite show that this proposition would have that effect? In the first place they made it out by a great many very vague appeals to their fears. They said they were embarking in a new course—it was very dangerous, they said; but they gave no other reason for their opposition to the proposition. He (Mr. Buller) had always found that such alarms as these were started when the interests of certain parties were affected. It had always been said when any particular change was going to be made, that if another feather were to be placed on the particular branch of trade which was to be affected, it would be broken down. He recollected that this was said at the time of the inquiries into the condition of the slaves.—(Cheers.) They were always told that a perfect paradise existed in the West Indies. He (Mr. Buller) was perfectly ready to yield in opinion to practical men, and to her Majesty's Government, upon whom great responsibility was thrown. It was, however, upon one condition, which was, that they should give up all shaking of the head, and come down with a plain ar gument upon the subject. What was the argument usel by the Right Hon. Baronet, in terrorem, as it were, for the purpose of scaring the supporters of the Noble Lord? The Right Hon. Baronet said " How far will you go, if you interfere with the factories—what will you do with the cotton manufactories and others?" Now, he (Mr. Buller) would answer the Right Hon. Baronet. He would, first of all, tell him wha t he would do with the principle. He would try it in every instance.— (Cheers.) He would carry the principle of interference just to that point where it was impossible to go further. —(Cheers and laughter.) Some of his friends laughed at him. Should he state the proposition in converse. He should not go further than the point to go beyond which would not benefit the.operatives. Why, after all, the Government did this themselves.—(Hear, hear.) They limited their interference to twelve hours in the factories.— (Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the in stance the Right Hon. Baronet had mentioned of the screw-makers. He (Mr. Buller) did not know the par ticular circumstances of that trade ; and he could not, of course, pledge himself without inquiring into them; but he would say that he saw no earthly reason why, if they legislated for the factories, they should not legislate for them also. The Right Hon. Baronet mentioned the case of domestic servants. Now, in the first place, he (Mr. Buller) did not believe ' that that was a class that was very much over-worked.—(Hear.) He did not know how Honourable Gentlemen opposite used their servants, but he did not think that generally they were very much overworked.—(Laughter.) But, even supposing that they were, no arrangement could be made with respect to them, for any interference in 'uch a case would do more harm than good. Then there was another class—that of the agricultural labourers. He did not think that, if they took the whole mass of the agricultural labourers of the country, they would complain of being overworked. Although they were badly treated in other respects, yet they did not com plain of overwork. The Right Hon. Baronet mentioned the harvest, and he said they worked a great many hours during the harvest. Why, who would complain of overwork in the factories if it were confined to three weeks, and if the custom of the country required it ? lie did not think that the arguments of the Right Hon. Baronet ought to scare them from their purpose. — (Cheers.) One of the wisest men in the world once remarked, " The slothful man said there is a lion in the street." Now he (Mr. Buller) must say, that in that question there had been most extraordinary lions.— (Cheers and laughter.) The Right Hon. Baronet said, for " God sake do not go that way, or the lion will be sure to be at you."—(Laughter.) He would now glom , at the arguments of the two Right Hon. Gentlemen, the Secretary for the Home Department and the First Lord of the Treasury. Now he thought he could set the two Right Hon. Gentlemen by the ears. It was impossible that the arguments used by each could stand together. One Right Hon. Gentleman said, " Don't interfere in this matter—it is our export trade, and the foreigner is competing with you." He (Mr:Buller) hoped this would be recellected in the debate on the corn-laws. The Right Hon. Baronet dreaded the competition with the foreigner. " The foreigner," he said, will compete with you, for you will have to raise your prices." The other Right Hon. Gentleman referred to Mr. Horner, and proved that nothing of the kind would happen, as the price depended on the foreign market, mil therefore the prices would be , kept low, to preseve the foreign market. Let him (Mr. Buller) take first the argument of the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Trea sury. His argument was the most formidable, after all. They could not over-state the importance of the export trade. The Right Hon. Baronet dreaded the increase of prices. What was that increase to be ? Some calculation might be made. Surely those who apprehended all this danger, could shadow, to themselves the amount of the increase. ,Mr. Kenworthy, a gentleman himself connected largely with the manufacturing interests, had made a calculation to show the sum which was expended in the manufac ture of a yard of cloth. It appeared that this sum was threepence per yard at present. Now, a common rule-of three sum would prove that, by a limitation of labourto nine hours, instead of its present duration, there would be a loss of only seven-sixteenths of a penny; and if to a Ten Hours' Bill, it would be five• sixteenths.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Yet the Right Hon. Baronet came forward, and said this Bill would be most ruinous to the manu facturers, and that, in consequence of the cotton- yarn trade of this country, they would be unable to compete with foreigners. He would now refer to a simple financial fact in connection with taxation, and he re gretted to see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not announced in his last budget that thero was any in tention of altering this duty—he alluded to the duty on raw cotton—(Loud cheers)—that raw material of which those manufactures were composed. This duty was 5. 16ths of a penny; so that they who railed against this measure, and said it would ruin the manufacturers of this country, had the remedy in their own hands without injury to any particular ;interest, by reducing it 2-16ths of a penny—(Cheers)--or to reduce it altogether.— (Renewed cheering.) If they thought that this tended to injure the manufacturers, her Majesty's Government had the power of applying the acquired remedy. The Right Hon. Baronet, he thought, was much mistaken in saying that all the injury would fall upon the operatives, and he made this assertion from premises drawn from statements in Mr. Horner's work. He (Mr. C. Buller) could not at all understand the arguments of the Right Hon. Baronet. The Hon. Gentleman then read the ex tract alluded to, and proceeded to say that the change made in the amount of wages would be only a diminution of one-tenth •, but the same amount of cotton would be manufactured as before, for it would not be that the quantity of work to be performed would be reduced, but that a greater number of hands would be employed ; and the only inference which he could draw from that passage from the work of Mr. Horner was, that there would be a reduction in the amount of labourers' wages of about 301. in every 400/. now expended. Honourable Members on the Opposition side of the House had been taunted with endeavouring to prove that a low rate of wages would increase domestic comforts and happiness ; now, in reply to this taunt, he would ask, did the com forts of' the people bear a proportion to the amount of the weekly income? He had seen much of the country, and he would beg to call the attention of the House to the state of the population in the collieries. Now, in these localities, although the men receive very high wages,. yet, surely, no person could say that domestic comfort was the result of this ? He saw numbers of the labourers, who had not half the wages of the colliers, who were much more comfortable ; and he thought,even were it to lessen—which he denied—the wages of the ope ratives, yet the increase of domestic comfort consequent upon the women having more time to devote to their household duties would be more than an equivalent for any loss of wages which might possibly accrue from this measure. The argnment he must grapple with was one that had frequently been thrown out, had been frequently used, had been circulated among the gentle men opposite with some assiduity, and probably with some success. It • was said that the corn-laws were mixed up with this question.—(Loud cheers.) It was said, if we venture to do this—if we thus interfere with manufactures—if we lay these fresh restraints on them, how will a paternal Government be able to resist the demand of the people for food?—(Cheers.) How shall we next year stand by the sliding scale ?—(Cheers.) , The members of the League, it is said, are cunning men ; the Bill is doing the work of the League.— (Cheers and laughter.) He could not say there was not something in that.—(Cheers.) It was not his business to defend the corn-laws—(Cheers)--- nor should he do so ; but he told them, after all that he had mentioned a much simpler remedy. There was no protective duty on raw cotton.—(Cheers.) There were no Anti-League leagues with respect to that article. — (Cheers and laughter.) But, suppose the House rescinded its vote, the public would know who voted—(Loud cheers)-the public would know who changed their votes—(Cheers) —the public would know who stayed away—(Loud cheers and laughter)—the public would know where " the whip" had been ap plied—(Cheers)—as well as they would know those who had changed, those who were absent, and those who were suddenly present.--(Cheers and laughter.) Look how the decision of. Monday night had been received ; then let the friends of the corn-laws tell him, those who sacrificed every consideration of policy to the rn-law, if intelligent people reconcile men ma i n t a i n ing of those laws—let them tell him, what th e masses of operatives from whose lips they would dash the cup of hope—what the intelligent and thi n ki ng classes, the mass of whom believed that huma n ity an d in policy the i ru much h c o nduc t mwento r more fatal together—how fatwith al their opini on ? W ou ld i t not be tthe co could these s o should see that it was for, the maintenance of these laws the country gentlemen were ready to sacrifice the edu cation, the morality, the social relations, and the phy sical well-being of the people of England ? Let them tell him what could be the feelings of the operatives when carrying on their la bour for those two other hours of the day, and working hard at their task, when they were com pelled to say, we are not working for our bread, but to pay the landlords their bread-tax ?—(Cheers.) lle gave them the best advice for their own interest. --(Hear, hear.) If Ihey really wanted to maintain the corn-laws let them maintain them as a coma-haw only. But let them rL.it make tic people of this country be lieve that those laws were linked with all the abuses and all the evils they were compelled to suffer. lie had done with the arguments he intended to use on this subject; he had stated those arguments in a manner that had satisfied his own mind, but he was not sure that he had been as able to satisfy others, though there might be some who would perhaps think he had made- out a tolerably plausible case.— (Hear, hear, and laughter.) It now remained to be seen what the House would do on this most important ques tion.—(Hear, hear.) The Government had taken a course which, whatever might be the right or wrong of the question, would always be a dangerous and impolitic one. It might give rise to feelings that never ought to be excited—feelings that might long outlive the decision itself. But he was prepared to give the Government credit for the honesty of the conviction under which they had been bold enough to encounter such a load of oblo quy and unpopularity. Would those lion. Gentlemen who voted for this amendment the other night—would they be less bold than they were?—(Great cheering.) Would they have less confidence in their cause—would they shrink from their duty?—(Cheers.) They had a gratifying division the other night.—(Hear.) Let them say what they would, they could not deny that they had men of all parties, of all interests, united in a great pub li3 cause.—(Cheers.) Let the same feeling that ani mated them then, animate the gentlemen now, so that neither absence nor change should affect that bold course of humanity and sound principle which the House had done itself honour by adopting.—(The lion. Gintleman sat down amid loud cheering.) Lord FRANCIS EGERTON rose amidst much confusion, to address the House. He said he did not intend so much to loin in the discussion as to rescue a constituent of his from an accidental misrepresentation which had been made with respect to him by the Noble Lord who had brought this question before the House. In the course of his observations he had read a statement of the ages of operatives employed in factories, and alleged that Mr. Peter Holroyd had refused employment to a man in his factory because he was 43 years of age, and there fore, too old for the occupation. He could contradict the state ment ; such an event had never occurred. Having said this much on the point, he would not trespass any longer on the indulgence of the House at this late hour.—(Cries of " Di vide, divide." 111 r. COLLETT moved that the Chairman report progress. —(Loud cries of " Divide, divide," " Go on, go on," " Ad journ, adjourn," in the midst of w hich— Mr. T. DUNCOMBE asked whether the Committee was disposed at once to adjourn?—(" Oh, oh.") He wished to know whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern ment to go to a division without some expression of opinion on their parts—without alleging some reasons for the course they would pursue ?—( Hear, her.) What the Hon. Member for Liskeard said was perfectly true, that the Government were sanguine of substituting twelve hours for ten, and reversing the decision which the House had come to on the other evening. He could only say that the people of . the country were prepared for any injustice and inconsistency on the part of the House and the Government.—( Oh, oh, and Hear, hear. ) When they were called on to commit this gross inconsistency they had a right to know what were the sentiments of her Ma jesty's Government. If they reversed their former decision it would create great consternation amongst the working-classes of the manufacturing districts —( Cheers.) The Honourable Nlernber for Sheffield said that he had no fear of perilling his seat by the vote he gave. He (Mr. Duncombe) thought he would not say so if the operatives possessed the franchise. He (Mr. Duncombe) had presented a petition to the House, signed by 3,000,000 of the working classes of the country, and one of the grievances of which they com plained was the excessive toil which they were obliged to undergo to enable them to live. The Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire had brought forward this grievance, and they decided that it ought to be redressed.—( Hear, hear.) The - louse gave the subject its best consideration, and divided upon it twice. They might disguise the question as they would, but the country looked upon it as a question between avarice and humanity—between an insatiable thirst for gain and mo rality.—(Cheers.) This was called a spurious humanity, but it was that humanity which, as had been truly said by the Hon. Nlember for Liskeard—which obtained negro emancipation, and forced the lash from the hand of the slave-drtver.—(Cheers.) And it was that spurious humanity which would set free the white slaves of this country.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") It was a question which could not be long de layed. and it was well known in the manufacturing districts, that it would ameliorate the condition, social and moral, of the working classes.—( Hear, hear.) As far, there fore, as his individual vote was concerned, it was very much at the Noble Lord's service. . _ Sir J. GRAHAM rose amidst loud cries of " Divide, divide," responded to by cries of "Ge on, go en." The Right Hon. Baronet said, if it was the pleasure of the House to go to a division that evening—(Cheers)—lie certainly wished to address them very shortly.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. HINDLEY moved the adjournment of the debate.— ( Cries of " No, no," and confusion.) Sir J. GRAHAM said, as he was in possession of the House, he should certainly avail himself of the opportunity of making a few observations. If he were of opinion, with the Member for Finsbury, that the social and physical improve ment of the working classes in the manufacturing districts would really be advanced by the adoption of the proposal of the Noble Lord, no person in that House would more willingly ac cede to it than himself; but it was because they had arrived at the opposite conclusion that he felt it his duty to persevere in his opposition to that proposal.—( Cheers. ) Notwitstanding the threat of the Honourable Member fur Ponteiract that her Majesty would be addressed by that House, in an address expressive of disapprobation of the Govern ment—notwithstanding the haughty contempt of the Noble Lord the Member for Newark, and the threat that great convulsions would come, unless the motion of the Noble Lord was carried—notwithstanding the taunt, he must say, not a very friendly one, of the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford—notwithstanding the accustomed jeers of the Hon. Member fur Liskeard—he was hound to say that, considering all the circumstances of the case, had ne. , er come to a less hesitating conclusion than that at which he had arrived on this occasion—namely, that it was his imperative duty to take the sense of the House against the proposal of the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire.—(Cheers.) With regard to surprise, he must say that he had endea voured to avoid as far as possible any such charge, by stating to the Committee, immediately after its decision, what course it was his intention to pur sue. It was necessary that he should explain to the Committee why he had adopted such an unusual course. In the first place he was taken by surprise by the result of the former division. He was taken by surprise on finding himself opposed to the Noble Lord the Member for London, and seve ral other members of the late Government. He (Sir James Graham), havi9g, on several occasions, in the Government of 1833, and as late as 1839, when, in opposition, given his cordial and strenuous support to the very course which her Majesty's advisers were now pursuing. —( Hear, hear.) He had thought it necessary, considering the very great interests at stake, that time should be given for public opinion to operate upon the proceedings of that House. The Noble Lord the Member fur London had on the last occasion rested his vote very much on the speech of his Hon. Friend the Member for Leeds.—(Hear, hear.) A very important declaration had been made on that occasion by his Hon. Friend. He stated that 300 master manufacturers in the West Riding of York shire, were favourable to the proposition of the Noble Lord, and that thirty-three master manufacturers in the city which he represented, had come to a similar conclusion.—( Hear, hear.) Now, as that statement was calculated to produce a great im pression on the House, it was of the last importance that her Majesty's Ministers should ascertain what was the opinion of that great manufacturing city, and of the cot ton district of Manchester. Now he spoke in the presence of his Honourable Friend who had formed part of a deputation from the flax manufacturers of Leeds, headed by Mr. Marshall ; and that deputation stated that a Ten hours' Bill would be fatal to their interests.—.( Hear, hear,) There was a great division among the woollen manufactures, but it was understood they would consent to an Eleven Hours' Bill, though the majority had insuperable objections to a Ten Hours' B 11. But what was far mere important, what were the communications which he (Sir J. Graham) had received from the great manufacturing districts of Lancashire ? It would be impertinent in him, at that late hour, to occupy the Committee by going over all the statements which he had received, and of which the substance was already familiar to the House. But he would briefly state what had been com municated to hint from that great commercial interest. He had this day received a deputation of eight or ten gentlemen, employing 10,000 workmen, and representing 140 firms in Lan cashire—( Hear, hear)—and the summary of their opinions was this : that 129 earnestly entreated the Government not to agree to the proposition of the Noble Lord, as to any reduction of the hours of labour below twelve. Seven were in favour of eleven hours, and the remaining four were in favour of ten hours.—( Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Liskeard asked for fresh arguments and reasoning to induce the Committee to re consider its decision. Now he ( Sir J. Graham) was obliged to admit that his powers of reasoning were so imperfect, that he was not able to give any fresh arguments; but all subse quent consideration led him to the conclusion, that beyond all doubt the proposition of the Noble Lord would be fatal to those whose welfare he had at heart, and whose interest he had so ably and consistently espoused.—( Hear, hear.) In the first place it would lead to a diminution of wages. The chairman of the Factories Deputation, now in London, admitted that he was not very sanguine that a reduction of wages would not be the consequence of the reduction of time.—(Cheers from Mr. Ferrand.) The Hon. Member for Knaresborough cheered.— ( Renewed cheers from Mr. Ferrand.) Notwithstanding that cheer, lie would say that he was satisfied that an early and large reduction of wages would be the necessary consequence of the Noble Lord's proposition.—(Hear, hear.) He was convinced that the disappointment would be most poignant, and he would make any sacrifice rather than be a party to the preparing of such disappointment as he clearly foresaw must be the result of the Noble Lord's proposition.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. FERRAND.—Give us a trial.--(Laughter.) Sir J. GRAHAM said. there were many experiments of which the result might be very doubtful; but let the issue be what it might be, the good, if good it were, might be but small ; but the evil, if evil, was not to be repaired, and might go on for ever, with a velocity impossible to check, and an accumulation impossible to reduce.--( Cheers. ) He entreated the Committee to remember the declara tion of the Hon. Member for Oldham—the honest, faith ful, and persevering coadjutor of the Noble Lord—that the limitation to ten hours was not sufficient, and that he would himself persevere until he attained an Eight Hours' Bill.— (Hear.) Was this their settlement ?--K Hear.) His opinion was this, that if our manufacturers, with their expensive ma chinery, were to be placed under such an arrangement as this, in competition with foreign countries—with Austria, France, Switzerland, and Belgium—the proposition was to limit the labour of the English operative to sixty hours a week, whereas in those other countries, they worked eighty-four hour , a week—the effect would be ultimately to drive British manufactures out :of the foreign market. But it was said that the Noble Lord's proposition would not be brought into operation in its full extent at once, that the limitation in the beginning should be to eleven hours—and that in two years the ten hours' system should come into ope ration. Now, he should say, that if the system was to be adopted at all, it should be adopted at once. There existed at present many opportunities and many inducements for transferring our manufactures to foreign countries. What would be the effect of our restricting our operatives to certain hours of labour, when they had to contend with other countries where there was no limitation as to hours of labour? It was true that in France there was a law to regulate the hours of labour, but it was totally ineffectual from the want of a system of inspection ; and there was a firm en the confines of Switzerland, under which the people were employed fourteen and sixteen hours a-day. In America, next to Belgium, our greatest rival, there was no limitation upon the hours of labour. The inevitable effect of the Bill would be to drive away all our best machinery, and with it ultimately our capital would follow, end seek a profit. able employment in other lands. And what, then, would be the effect on the immense masses of our labouring people when, machinery and capital being gone, the demand for labour should cease ? lie had every respect for the statements - . and calculati ons o f , the Honourable m e mber , for Liskeard (Mr. Charles Buller), but those calculatVw had been re a d so rap idl y b y hi m t h at h e was una ble to f° 1e him through th em even were h e wi lli ng, which at th ata hour he was not, to trouble the House hi replying to thee: But since he had submitted his own calculations to the mlnspectors.llou on a toer occasion, he h a d s•ent to the Factory who had submitted them to six of the most experienced reat, t tet manufacturers in Lancashire. Th a t ca l cu l a tion showed teia the necessary reduction o f wages , consequen t on this rtlet su b , e being carried, would h e bet ween 23 an d 25 per cent. ;and could assure the House that th e master manufacturers; he k laded to had made calculations from their own 14 1 1 , 0 and they all concurred that his calculation o t thoroughly a correct one. N ow if th e House 91 0 be of opinion that one of th e t wo thi ngs which he q,. ' Graham) feared would happ en — e ith er that this dreadful (II notion of wages would occur, or that our machinery slut a,", s k capital would fly to other land s , an d cause a c onsequent diminution in the labou r o f our own ; if t h e H ouse should th i n k either or both of these e vil s wou ld resu l t, sure l y it Inustslle before consenting to a meas ure lik e thi s. —( H ea r, hear.) e s was hound to state he f e lt hi mse lf aw l hi s H on . Colleag n o , behind him most painfully situated in being opposed by a g re 4 body of gentlemen with wh om h e h a d vote d w ith very.g", - , satisfaction, and from wh om th e G overnmen t h a d receivelloo constant arid cordial support. But he (Sir J. Graham) waived deeply impressed with the magnit u d e o f th e i n terests in'', be in the principle the e un d er di scuss i on, t h at h e felt—en", ie bi said it most sincerely, an d with pain—that he could n• 3) 0 1 sine point on the p r e sen t occa sion.—( Loud cheers.) • A ; ,l d u ty dust in the balance to hi m compare d w i t h t h e s ense o f which controlled him.—( Loud cheers.) He was quite og t fled our manufacturi ng an d commerc i a l prosperity was; stake, and on this prosp er it y th e H ouse m i g h t d epe nd that peace, happiness, and future prosperity of this country wc g indissolubly conne c t e d. ( L ou d c h eers. ) To nn ti ! l ht could he ( Sir James Graham) consent which o t t l it i threaten seriously to interfere with our coroele i le tbe and manufacturing greatness. And it was, he conceie"'„ e s duty of those who felt as he did, who entertained the ,sine opinions, the same views and the same fears that he d id ' to resist the attempt which was now ma d e to con firm the of the other night. H e put i t to t h e H ouse to rescind ID vote, believing as he did, t h at i t was a most dangerou s 0 5e . —(Cheers.) He did feel called upon to entreat the 11° carefully to reconsider th e decision they had corns to l o b former occasion. If it was re - a ffi rme d he s h ou ld v iew it es. the deepest regret: if i t was reverse d w i t h t h e highest laii rd faction; for by such a vote only could he now look f at° to the maintenance of th e greatest interests of this country. dett Mr. COLLETT (amidst tremendous uproar) was g i , n s s s) stood to say that he s h ou ld vote f or t h e N o bl e L o rd (A"'"' and against the proposition of the Government. Mr. I3F.CKE TT said that it had been stated that he qy- not justified in stati ng w h a t h e did on a f or M er °con e % Did the Right Hon. Gentleman who had made that state tt l i i recdllect what he did state? If he did, he was sure he wain not have made the statement. He hoped he should stin",, d in the opinion of the Committee as incapable of oat a r e J statements that he did not believe. He had S ' - bug that he was for an Eleven Hours' Bill ; as he was decidedly opp ose d to a twe l ve h ours ' one , a nd as` , i l the opinion of his cons tit uents. N ow, t h ere was a rn° 9l°r oo that had been presented to the Government, and what w" its t statement in that m emor i a l? Wh y, t h ey w i s h e d the P, re t t ie i Bill to be withdr awn , rat h er t h an h ave t h e ten h our s, an d , Dill maid that they would get as much out of an Eleven Hen" as Sirh;een one. sl. J. GRA HAM wished to read part of the meln° n l iisS• was signed by Mr. Marshall, and most of the princiP s oo gsa spinners in Leeds, and a considerable portion of the:: larbf manufacturers. Now what was stated in that memorial • ou st that the hours of working for women and young people wee too oppressive or injurious to health—that the reduction ° f t he o , e by fifty-eight hours per week, which would bit the effec t ° , 4 ,1 be Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire's proposition, w° en, followed by a serious reduction in the earnings of the. w , c ' c on' and would inflict upon the memorialists the most soroV' t ,td, sequences. The Honourable Member for Leeds had yours that the manufactu rers were d es i rous o f an Eleven Bill. Now what slid the memorialists themselves state • bo la that they were de s i rous t h at no legislative enactmen ts ° , l tbef be made that would i n f r i nge upon t h e present system. V I I the trusted that the G overnment wou ld wit hd raw the Bll' ten hours' clause was insisted on. - of signed sir Mr. ALDAM sa id th a t th e memor i a l was signet. , 1 , 8 be' seven of the largest flax-spinners in Leeds; in fact, title lieved that none of the manufacturers of that srs had refused to sign it. It was signed else "J A ,t great number of the woollen manufacturers of tha t the and he believ e d th a t on l y ten manufacturers .n place had refused to append their . names l, ass On the whole, th e o pi n i on o f t h e manu f acturers in Le e , against a Ten Hours', and in favour of an Eleven Ilonli e sto —(Cheers.) In point of fact, the adoption of an The Hours' Bill would no t ma k e any material differenec as% present hour s o f l a b our were eleven and a half i n the manufacture, and eleven in the woollen ma nufactur e ' f i e site manufacturers of Leeds were anxious for an Eleven Bill, as a final settlement of the question, o pe ° i • 11 Mr. MITCHELL h a d on T ues d ay conversed with me t' the largest flax manu f ac t urers i n the kingdom on th e 9-o ihs' ,, of The Leeds manufacturers were merely flax spinners' rds gentleman was a fl ax manu f ac t urer, h e emp l oye d ur s o , I tt 4,000 people as bl eac h ers , d ressers , weavers, an d spirit's' redoes answer to his question a s t o w h at wou ld b e t h e e ffect 0 11 bad tion of the hours of lab our t o t en h ours , th a t gentlenotn, 00 stated that one-sixth of th e men o f hi s esta blishni en o ijlis were employed in dressing, weaving, and bleaching , w thrown out of employment. Lee ds Lord HOWICK reminded the Hon. Member O r to elfs that they were about to divide on th e ques tion vrhethf r if the, should be the numbe r o f h ours o f labour or not, and .pl vote i against the moti on , if t we l ve s h ou ld b e rejected' it 14011 be still competent to eith er o f th em t o propose that the " should be filled up with eleven. the quit. Sir J. GRAHAM re m i n d e d th e C omm i t t e e, that „ tion was, whether they sho u ld a d o pt t en h ours or not? its Mr. HINDLEY wished to ask the Chairman what t question upon which they were really going to divid e ' en drot Mr. GREENE (the Chairman) said that the am °° t before the House, and upon which he should firt t ,avtot„ question was, that the black should be filled up with ',tent.; •- ten." If that should be rejected, it would be on i , P,: o any Member to move that the blank should be filled ° P t es t the word " eleven." If that were negatived, then the question would be that it should be filled up w"" t welv MUe." Mr. NTZ wished to draw th e a tt en tion of the , he fie! mittee to a very paradoxical statement made by s n sia Member for Clitheree. He had stated that noma sters_r uc h 0 little as the English masters, and no men received 0,17,00"; the English workmen. Now he knew something.o f t" t , cs! e it facturers on the Continent, and he believed that, In mat , l ' s h the foreign manufacturers paid much less than the e , 0 ,0 4 manufacturers, and that the English workmen received t her e less than many of the foreign workmen. He belie l , e o f t i ;i, was not any one acquainted with the manufacture r !„ Continent who could not contradict the statement of Member for Cliteroe. GO ° ilt r° Strangers were h then ordered to withdraw, an d the divided, when there apoeared -183 For the twelve hour clause l B6 Against it — Majority against the Government... e ver. A second division then took place before strangel,„ mitted, on the ten hours' clau se , w h en th er e apPeare 18 1 For the clause Against it Majority against the clause On our return to the galle r y we f oun d _- se• lse j 0 Sir JAMES GRAHAM addre ss i ng the 1 - lon ef the House had decided that there should neither beif ee isie or Hours' nor a Ten Hours' Bill. H e res pected th e ter ett r the House, and he had a great regard for the great i n h i, Jog bts cerned; and he thought he would best discharge t i e shou t to postponing till Monday a n y f ur th er p rocee ding. Clasi t therefore, that all would agree with him that the eO l should report progress and ask leave to sit again. so of Lord ASHLEY, amidst much confusion, said t he l l° O f be more ready than lam to b ow t o t h e d e cision to rot. I ventured at the outset to make a very solemn Or in tho u feelings, and I will not p resume t o impugn, evse,",-,...-(Petsr the justice or huma n ity o f thi s augus t asseriantr, or tie l Although defeated now, I think I am not guiltY,T ; t ell y I tion in saying th a t I hav e a r i g ht, an d that I wi „ r iao i P myself that right, of endeavouri ng to assert theoic'stialls'of have this evening advocated, o n ever y l e gitimatf to e , will persevere to the very latest period of my esis. o fro l ; have not the slightest doubt that, in a very short , r iergs e ittl. period, by God's blessing, I shall have a complete t The CHAIR3IAN then reported progress, Oa the o dth e resumed. A of e st, The other Orders of the Day w e re then diapm e- dsy , House adjourned, at a Quarter before Two, to 1400 ~ Pl i° o o lff• BRITISH AND FOREIGN INSTITUTE .--;' 0 .- ingham delivered the concluding l ec ture °' h °° ol9 ', fl ti° Palestine, on Thursday, at the H anover -square e 0 att numerous audience, who testified by their u lll - I° t the interest felt in the s u bj ec t. v regf . akrl CURIOUS CIRCUMSTANCE.—There is au the possession of Katherine Robertson, res idin_g a S e d Ji o iof ° a ring or virl of co pp er , w hi c h s h e found na b !, . o f th e piece of coal, the inside of which was quite f!"' thi s mineral.—Stirling Journal. tb ° ve MR. BUNN'S BENEFIT,-..011 ThlITS',4 1 18 „1 ,1218 6 enterprising manager takes his benefit, an d assistance of the principal performers engag eci „ ( la! , Theatre—among the rest the great lion of,t li i„„daft prez. The first piece announced is The „ b ",i 10 5 e t" t," t , which Messrs. Borrani, Hudson, Harrison , :" c ours e ,. o oo forth will perform the chief parts. In t ll evening will be introduced a miscellaneous mosc';istk. ing of—" Reminiscences of Ireland," by 1 17n10 .6- ; popular ballad, by Miss Romer • the EaP b y 31. ) faclal t i Balfe, of " While I gaze on those dear eYesi d Wl' o t Concerto on three pianofortes, to be perforT; 8 0 00 000, Dnlcken Mr. Benedict, and Mr. Moc he de by Scena, by ' Mrs. Alfred Shaw ; " La Rolu ail b ee e,l . ll sg i g t o , o o il i' o rt, Ginevra," composed by M. Halevy, writ Duprez. The evening's performances will te r t his ° v. new divertissement, composed expressly fo r o teh by M. Albert. es o* e ra , ‘O ,. BRISTOL. BANKRUPTCY COURT.---.°eS n oVi ro i li r geW o considered to be wound up for years Fr t .; a e r n e tire l Y t iceo fr° l o of investigation, and creditors who ha" ; n°, , ( 1.4. le d their claims, have been surprised on re ce. ` t . o i 3.3 . 1 en the official assignees of their being entitled sp on "o' l ol the case of Walter Jacks (against the conir_fo for t h'' upwards of forty years since), a divide) T oo t F , the 6th instant, on debts proved to thn 8 n ic ot 4 ' o ( 70,0001. We learn that a dividend of ate o tate A gO th y pound will in a short time be declared on t 0,,. _rocec"tile • Wood, a banker, at Cardiff, in which the las s t io y ee , . fore the Commissioners took place s° 1(411; 1827.—Bristol Journal. - .e P' sei O re l , l .B(llW e : titer. •01 r ifB or . o t f h a e B d t a l u i. g it i is t t e . r , , a s t ti l l ;l l3 o b r l o e it n rn c T e . Florence, lady of the ge s : G. 0.0 0 . On the 17th inst., at Esher, Surrey, t l - 0 o f 0 Esq., of a daughter. • the 1. 11 • On the 19th inst., at Montagn Ogilvy, Esq., barrister-at-law, of a (law win On the 19th inst., at Bath, the ladY ° Okeden, Esq., of a daughter. On the 19th inst., at Yarmou th, the wife elfre:tiro.r, Squire, merchant, of a son. On the 20th inst., at Belgrave Iloase e 110 Wight, the lady of Dr. Martin , of A daugli_tjsl,ol:, On the 20th lust., at York-terrac e, Rego" Mrs. Campbell Scarlett, of a daughter. MARRIED. te r 10 4 4 4e ye iii On the 20th inst., Mr. Benjamin Louts Die t to Miss. Levyson, only daughter of Dir. Dion of Queen-square, Bloomsbury. DIED. • On the Ist of January, at Camp Duna'la, , 3 , 1 44 4 e 4) aff1ie Russell Crommelin, C. 8., Ist Regiment of Na,o,, On the 2d of November last, at Hobart men's Land. William Morgan Orr, Esq. ihe 11 On the 2d inst., at Margat e, Jnlinna Dr. Case, M.D. -TVll°. '4' (h.! the 10th inst.; at Leicester House, St,. Richard Chase Sidney, Esq. ( il i ' ac ';' _-- ------ i'•o * 111 London: Printed and PubliA7ed 1)Y1k1L1t1)9.... e " 1 10 .4 Oc 'W No 112, Strand, Printer, at The Suit IA Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, iu ' Middlesex, saturday, March 23, 1844. % tit _ a ikatCl xci 3 2 • 6 FIE \l' 14 ?,-. NRIEI jie t l h 'Y given II S 6 ouse lLt ~,Nectiltleat, at 7w `' Li r la Direct( krthe announ e 'ea 2 1, 1844 1,2 \ 'I4INT AN 'l 't of 14t he SRtj Rill be all 4 Co °e4 and oti ttee har e ' c`e nlan is for i p er anu 3 'F r, in z