The Sun. — London, England, 1803-06-24 00:00:00

I, era dis2ipline ahrord, he almitteti that the.' tiggektion, of the Honourable ,Gentlensen-ought in be - attended to ; lint :IS that Wa's "not like ly .' to be the case, he thought the present plan was. the most eligible *at could he devised. • If 'there. were not means attached to this Bill for making the, fcirce now 'proposed to he raised auxiliary to the ,-general Army, it certainly would be an. objeflion in his mind, and he was decidedly 'of opittion that an affirmutive clatise ought to-be introduced - into the 'l3lll upon" , that subje6l.—Unless it was determined '' ".ro-defitroy.ihe Militia altogether, there must be a competition not only of men but of bounties. - If ..thii fOrce was once raised,- would'any man say that if IS,ooo.memwere 'wanted for the Army by the end of " this year—would any man doubt after 'the experience they had had' of the Militia last . ..War, that there would be any tliMculty in obtain. ill them voluntarily ? The.nien.who served in the Would•have noinduceinent to enter intOthe . Regolars, but that feeling which belonged to them in common - with every other good S - übjea ; they . had beiides strong feelings to attach them to their own Regiments, and be knew that the Officers o a f the Militia felt a ' great reludance that their men should enlist - in the Regulars.. His opinion there. fare of . the resources that..were to be obtained from new foree for the Regulars, teas not _ .tnatter of conjeeture, h.qt of certainty, from the experience' we had already 'had . upon the subjeCi. }laving said so much-on, the.general outline Of .t4is measure, he would, glance at a point which had been stated nn a former occasion ; he meant that of . the • Power to; recruit from any Corps raised fa nite purpose, which might,- if carried to a great ex.. tent, render it usetesi, by,oaderminieg its discipline.: that w as an o.liservatton:Whkh might be very: true, and would have great force, if the recruiting was allowed to be,carried,on at all times; and indisei minately 4, 3' all parties and_ descriptions, and more particularly Sq if that flagitions system ) , known un-- der the name ofCeinsping, 'was JO get ors . ; but these 4htedions,.or.at leap most pithern,.would'he • done away,, if., we recruited on given days of; mus— ter, in which a Regiment was called.9ver, -and the'n . some were .immeilloe.l 4 , allowed to !declare them, selves for general. service ; ire (ha t_ w . ay- we ,might have twi c e or three tin more ,tha.n. we wanted ; and it should be left to the Officers. who .should hdve the privilege of doing :so . , and tNn','ire - 'had nti doubt hut the result woillri.l lo 44 )c l- t p t ,.b,-... 11:1(1tatrd. 14„; saw no necessity of stating.iong.hefmull''''' the time when this to 'take place;, it sbouhrbe leit to Hl4 IS/LijeS'ty to &Cram the blue and Plce 3 where it shotird take place, ••a, fortnight befenehand, and km than a • ight . .kse,provided that no more given number should be taken within the year. By this no Soldier would k:tiow when he 'would be taken frOm his Officer, under whose tom. !nand he wait serving, so that he would have all the inducements of. his profession to be steady in the discharg e o f his duty. By these means lie thought , that the objeetion to recruiting from ,poicoros into another, on the score of the bad effeo.it .hid upon discipline, would be obviated. He thought, this obgetvationgrew out of the proposition he had stated upon tliis subjeft ) : and that it was a more r e ady mode, and would be more effene,',l in its executioo for recruiting (or .the general service; than, that Which iris Right Hon. h: ;end would build on. the desurudion of the Militia. He thotVit the matter of Bounty wyuld-attend. this, comport vely cd less ,consequcn.;:e. He-ilid not wan' to say it wasfro bartbeii, on the Cotmtry,. and be- thought ti;e 1.301 should be ,frartud as wsql as it could , to f';eep . down . . the price of .SUbstitutes; • but as. • ;() recruiting. the . army, he wished -to see that sffeC.ted by •' moderate Bounties.: At the same time, a,s he stared msa former.occasion, and he Could. not help; adbeting. to . the opinion, if it should appraraoubtful=winther artytharge imposed ley w;trof commutation 4ould be sufficient to cn. , sure a prorite.tion_of.efficilnr service, „that was to say. the certainty. Substitute for the.yerson draw n , .' BO - ne. other _measure than -a Commutation pahould 7 kie, rs-sotted to ; -tinthci speak. plainly, he load great dunbt whether the•:systein of pecuniary corn.:' peosalicui- fat nomser.vice.should be adopter! at all=-- - whether. arw sum , of. Motley whatever should be takendnstead of service, ejthor 7by .the. person on :whorn.the.-10 fell, or by his Substit,uto; but on the contrary,-.t_paat I every .nyee,drawn shall either serve - persottally, r . or provide a Substituto.: , At. the . tome • time, litshould wish, inlhe ferst_instance, to avoid aternotkas . possible measures that, might be.theingitt . unnecessarily:4'llton, .but to decline nothing that • was really.oceessary, acrid with this .sentitnent thoughtweishould follow• the principle of the ehll. and. he would add, that .a great' pan of ithe merit 74 . thrisresenr•plan•eonsiste:i in .its. jt wa that of raising a number of metrottl of the.Cs4nmunisy forrhe.7.porpose. of defending it, and dpirtg.4hat ..a way Mar .w.JI known to. ant conlrq4pity, and AO which th e y 1414.00. no former Uceasiarrbliettesl.; -and- also • raising • Officers to 'in., struft and command themin. a way • that,had been partly .I.tiled and aoptoved of, because indeed the . body raised could not be otfierWise gfficereth He thnulla.it desirable 'that we should adopt this irieltsure WitliOut any hesitation ; neither could it int'objeeted to on the score of novelty, foe novelty in principle it had none, either in the manner of raising men, or in the burthen to be cast Upon tthe Country in consequence of it ; and he, thought highly.indeed on the advantages it . wOufel produce • to the Country. If, hoWever, it should be deemed Prudent to admit of a pecuniary penalty fortion.ser. Vice, or of providing a Substitute, i t 8 ,1 0 01e . 1 be un der sortie modifications. He did not hesitate to .declare that he shotild Prefer a.-positive enaftment that every person ballotted should either, personally 6 r'e or provide a Substitute,; but if it - should be deerned expedient to allow •arcuniary compeosa tton begritenThiliell73(ol:thei; he should propose: Some alteration in the present plan in that particu. hr. He should propose, that if a p e .i s onbalfeitted. neithe r offered tit serve" iii persoiV, not produced' a Substitute, that then .the pecuniary wraPe4"tinil should beetjual to the 'rank, order, and degree :in life of th e Cerson ballotted.i. knew•-.4mt *lit tie said chili was , only raising • a ruveoue, Was that it as not m one y bur men wit wanted apart 'the - pre , ' tent lit admitted the truth of that Obset•- • ration, but open t hi s answer, that if were t heletialeb the matt of,sociciy Would think it en"nngll for each Intl; viduaf, an - marry of them - would on that sum either serve or provide a SUbstitnie, and soothe objed of the 3illAVould, with, regard to the mass of the . Publie, be answered ; for it was out of them, after all, our Army moist be made up, and their failing to produce a Substitute would compel them to serve, and this would be evidence of the difficulty of commuting service for a small sum.; but the stun of zol. would he nothing to persons of high condition ; the charging them isl. or. iol. Would: answer no purpose, it would be the very thing they would want ; they would pay the sum cheerfully, and he glad to get rid of the matter so Much to their own convenience, and they would not in the . ; least, degree, (unless indeed they were ac mated by patriotism, of which he had no doubt ',there existed a great deal, but which could not be 'deethed the foundation of a Legislative measure at any time) interest themselves in procuring men for the service; the sum therefore which they should beoalled upon to contribute, should bear a propor tion' to the rank and station of the pairy so as to make it his interest to use his influence, al ways considerable in the higher walks of life, and generally proportionate to the-station, to procute a Substitute, which was the real objecl of the present measure. The advantage of this distinaiOn would he this, that by it every man of fortune wild-should happen to he ballotted,. was turned into a sort of - Recruiting Officer in the service to save his purse.and ,preserve his fortune, but if the sum was moderate, .he would be indUced to feel it more convenient for-liim to pay it than to, giVe himself .any'farther trouble, so that the essential interest of the State would derive but little aid from individual effort. . Undoubtedly, the;'), if the sum was tnode rate, it would not answer the purpwie, which, all of us had in view, the raising speedily. a large bedy pf men. 'The 'sum should he such, then; as to quicken the industry of Person's of the higher rank ,„tO procure men. He begged pardon for thus de., raining the fiduse Upon these points, •because, • perly speaking, they were more fit for a Corn: mittee, hut what he wished must of all to press Upon the House, was the recolleCtion of this great point—that we were all agreed unanimously in the necessity of augmenting our force, and .that there was - nor the least difFerence of opinion upon that point, and he could wish there was as little difDrence of 'opiniori upon the. int:4llli of accomplishing that end. helie'ved the 4 - ionse was very generally ready t' , adopt the plan of his Right Hon. - Friend Cthe Se el' AR, v.at WAR), and also to adopt the set). riments Otitis Right I-lon. Friend (Mr. WIND:IA:A),' which Was, that we ought to make use of all the means in . our power to increase our Force for gene: rah Service ; and' also that' we shnultl raise still More temporary Forcefor any emergency that may arise ; but here he could not help 'observing, that the question now before the House, was not what plan was most excellent orit.. kind, but what, under the present Pressing necessity", was hest calculated fpr immediate self-atelence ; and' he thought that,it was-best calcit!ated for that purpose,- of any means that could as the sudden be devised t and therefore he should' !wipe there could be no Materialdiffer erve`olopinibn, that this Bill should go into a Com mittee, there to 1). modified as should appear to be right. _He knew the warmth and' noble ardour itt . his Right Honourable Friend IMs: Vcitizim6t4)--- He knew that nti'opo burned noire than ,he.did wi t h enthusiastic zeal and disinterested patriotisitile knew there was no sacrifidOeither in fortune or in person, which: he was not petfeetly rettrty to make for the service of his Country, eithTr' to preserve its Rights at'home, ortn vindicateito Glory abroad, in any Way 'that. might be deetited - MOst itsefitl, per. hips to, retrieve the lo'st charaaer of,a great part of Europe, lilt should, be disposed :at arty rime to change its present desperate situaton.' We shoWi not exclude that hope in preparing for odr . oVen safety, but that.depended upon others and ntit upon us; their present situation was not . the elte6 of any fault in us. But we.. must not negletft otir own safely. Those Powers, if, they were not lost,, to all seise of their situation, would find an opportunity of recovering their honour, Bot lie trusted, that no icalon that account, upoo objeas which' were. at preient out of our reach, svould induce his 'Right Honourable Friend 'to obstrua a measure which :was, cal Cu., lilted for our immediate defence. tie ktie'Vi , the feelings of, his Right Honourable Friend to be as .much alive as those of any buthanßeing, for ilte true interests of his Country-; and if he atilt op.: posed this Measure . , it must be because he still re. ,mained unconvinced that the Bill _would have the .effett witiCh was exPeaed from it. He should, in. .deed, be sorry to differ from his Right Hon, Friend, upon thiS most iniportantneasure, intended f,eir-the 'Safety of the State, yet he 10 this ennaolition, • that however widely his Right 'Hon. Friend'and _himself differedlii. their 'vote's ,upOn the present • measure,' yet they 'agreed estaaly their sentiments. The SEC laT A MY at 11/AR observed, that with , . regard to the lie to he Koposed on those who should neither serve nor provide a Substitute, and the con. sideration oT the rank and`-station of the party, the House had the ben4t of heiring the opinion of his Right.tion. Fiiend for his own part, he Was so struck with - the propriety and fotice . of the idea,- that 'he had thought,it necessary to prepare a Cause upon the principle stated by his Right Hon. Friend, and the House.. in a Committee, would have an . , opportunity of considering that . subjeft,. Mr. WINDHAM proceeded to, consider the different'points which bad been stated in stippOrt of the .Bill . now before .the House, He said that if hi remained still lineciimiince4 of the propriety of this measure, it was not ()Wing to the want of clearness Of the statement of his Right Hon. Fiiend (Mr. .PtiT) in'the support of it, and there was in' addi.; 'don't() the advantage which the measure itself re Calved froin the abilities „dills Right 1 - 16 n. Friend,. in support of. it; another 'advantage, hod that was an advantage to the opponenti of the Bill",-for he hid stated the subject so clearly, that those who differed frOinhirtt had their way clrered before thetri and' their labour shortened, since he had. btought into one view every point that had. a hearing upon the subject. ',!tote were t‘to leading pointS to "be.considered upon this : Whit were the best means fur -our - ctip!nce, anti INLIt were the beirtrieans of pro. secutiog the War with. Vigour ?' His Right ft Friend had mistOnceived -his idea of the present case that while . we - were IcitAtiog fotiarti towards ottr safety, he was consi,letiog other Alen!' tsar were at a distance. It was with hits, he hoped, as it was With all prudent inert in the consideration of tluttian Affairs. His Right Hod. Friend had said, that that which IS most interesting to its - arthe Ore sent moment, is the safety of the tOuntry : Now, there was no doubt, that if those tWoobjeeti,*narne ly, the Safety OfathiS Country, and the vigorous prosecution of the VVaofn the way he recommended. it, by increasing our disposable Military' Force; could not be reConciled, which . of the twa jeas'should be preferred.a-' -The Safety ,of the Coun try was undoubtedly the first- objed; for, if we failed in that, there was an end of all consideration on our part of the Question, of restoring Europe by any means to be 'adopted by us; if the necessity on our part was so grear as had, been stated, we Might lay every thing else out of our consideration. But he would take up the question simply, of how. far this measure was ealcoldted for our immediate defence ? -The first point was, what effeet this measure might havo on the future Recruiting Ser. vice of the'Army ? hie was not sanguine enough to expet that the recruiting of the Army would go,. on with intelt celerity at any-time Ulliler our tary System ;- certainly less now, .singe the - great ' Briunties‘had been given ; the very memory of such large BoOnties, even if they could be. discontintied,. would considerably impede. the recruiting of. the Army, for men would be slow to enlist for lest than others had been accnstomed to receive. "He did not deny that the present. measure wriuld procure more Ine.tl in a short period in the ,present mo ment. thin could be procured in any. other way ; but here he came to a consideration' which ,had hitherkilyeen a .great deal too much neglected. Hr thhught that the error, of Ministers , was, that of negleding that which he had followed _upoo. this occasion, eamely, that of entire attention to . the opinions'of IVlilitare Men, A Military Man knew very well ihe'diff'erence betweeo that which 'was important and that - which was unimportant in 'Mill. tary matters---between a Regiorot which had been long and one tkit had.been y ru i ; composad of good orolhad Men ; but a Minister in. the House of Common , : knew nothing of any such difirence.:-.. with him a Regiment was a Regiment, and /kit w'as all'he knew of the matter ; and this was tha case with almost every body who talkea upon the - suhjeift in that Hoilee; hut he conhMot cOnsideriog the naftiroof the force, and he was afraid. his Right' I-fon. Friend suffered himself to be deeeitsed when' he talked of the speedy progress which this sys. tern will make; As to providing Officers for this body of men when raised, the first resource we had Was-the Half_pay List ; now, without disitaragitig the Half.pay List, and feeling aS he did from what had been said already by way -el comment - on his fotrnerspeeth, the necessity of caution in what he said; yea in speaking of the Half-pay List it must lie eon'aidered tisk We could not get from that. List Officera , of the same description as those who were in actual service, although no man wrth, deny there were in that Lido many very, excellent Of.' , ficera, many indeed who were upon that List only because their Regiments were reduced : wine of them also were upon the List becanie they had beep wounded, but they were not all the hettee,or. the most' fit far service on that aceotoit ; M an y o f t h em had .been put upon that.LiSt tan account of declini n g; health ; they were not to be'considered as the most Tit for service either. Many' had been put upon . that List because it was not deemed proper they should ,eontinueadive in the service: He hoped they Were good Officers, but yet 'these ,were con. siderations not to be disregarded, and.we.should not certainly exoeet from this List at much eater dot), *as if- the ,'lame number , of Officers were taken from the actual service ; nor ,Was there a . , coMparison to 'be made betwe en the progress they would Make, and an - equal ionnherof Officers in le. tual service, and therefore he could not-helo.doubt., ing the efficacy of this source of providing Officers for this Force, when raised, arleast to' the extent held - out by his Right Hon. Fiend:s ' On .ties other side ofalte Heuse.. He thought the. measure now proposed would not answer' the purpose for 'which is waiititended, and' instead:of it he wished to see the 'IWO'S of the Line increased.. Bueit WPIS that the urgency' itrid pressing nature of th e case de manded tne.tUres'of expedition.. Now, what were vitt ideas On this -subjed ? If . he Could be assured that the attempt On this Island would tie delayed fur a titne.to suit our Coneeoit, and until we had sufficiently increased our Fotee, and made it fit for action, this meastuy:e. w o uld d o we ll ; hu t as We had no security tOr that, he thought ''we had better increase our Army ; -anti for th a t purpose he was, of ooittioit'rhatve should have. re- . course to compulsive measures ; no was he. alarmed at time present crisis, that ;suclattleasures,. provided they were not accompanied by unnecessary harshness ' Or severity, would be objeded to as -uneonsatu:. tional. He said this Without any difficulty, Leeatote . he did think, after much deliberatiOn; that tins was the only way to provide effeflually' for our safety ; nor were we 10 stagt too aitich of the aacrifiejswhich we were to make. Upon this danger, against which we were •naW talking of providing; what were' we to say if it . eante- UOO.I us, as it Might come oon us, within two months .?• what Was- t o become of . us, when out Bill was hardly past ?aeql.le was nut speaking with any view of alarming Mioiste.7s) —hut he wished into be remembered, that the Bill now' before the House would take some time i n passing' and after raising, he would ask; how long it woultib ' e before we got the lien ?and after we had g ot ,the men, he would ask hoW long after ths: mttmen Wet e got, Would it .be before they Were fit t'or'Setv ice If we hail the invasion at all, we might have it in iniddle.of our Ballot arid he would ask•what the House would think of a mass sO fuU of ckftaii as a military body as this must be at its first iiste'itabliog, full as it must be frOm the: nature of things;,of - discantent and sourness', inealaible ofonilitary Move. Meats; and totally unfit foe efficient Military see., vice leg discontented they 'naturally would be,- on leaving thei t om use a and families. ' What aurt of ifn Army of Reserve was thii to be for our oroteetion in the hOur of peril? Suppose our other Army Meet 'a cheek; was our last st 3 ke to he ranted to this Army of Reserve The defeat of a regulat - Army : did not prevent it front atoetating again, for they knew how to tally again, :bk . a defeat of an- ir. regular mass, ow an end to its operations; it WAS able - to he thrown into confusion, end to lietome usetees after >t defeat. lle thought it. bad policy in uS to ptir due last stake upon such an irregulae force as" this,. by which one defeat 'might be our ruin: He objected to it, because :people might artist too Muth to it, and mil ht say they had pfovided a security itgain'st all danger, by providing this Miss, Wheecai the people ought to depend epori themselves. He thought „that a smaller number' of Regular Troops would be better than this Man. He reco m mended tGi us to imitate the driacluet of the Vendeans ; who although week themselVes, yet by:military skill end prudence, held out for years, eor did they give up at all, On e till the greatest part of Eorepe had given op, He Should by no means think We should give all over, even thenigh our Regular Troops might be defeated 4. whiteout. Naval Power eemaleed, and we continued to cut cff all intercourse between the Enemy and the Continent from this Island, we should always„ have the means of a final vietory. He saw in thie Plan so many objections, that he ,kneW 'not how to state them within a tolerable compass. He had asked how long it would be before we could get these 0,000 men, and When they were got, hoW long we should be before' they were trainedlie Might ask hoW long we should be before we cloath. ed them ? How long would it be 'before we 1,-,a bteechedour Army of Reserve? He was afraid that We might have to encounter the danger agairtse which they were intended to pro-side long before they would be fit for Service ; ana if they were employedio 'aCtiee SerViceetoo eoon, they might de more mischief than gritel.--4-/avjng justified his former language upon this sitlijeN and disclaiming any . intention of offending' the Militia by it, he con, tutted with chserving;that he perceived the general opinion of the House appeared be in favour of tin! Measure now befere the House, but lie had thought it his duty to, state his sentiments. He had great reliance on ehe Militia which had been well trained, but he denied that such an as... section we's inconsistent with the opinion which . he had given of the Army-of Reserve—He . objedt:4 to this .syetein becaose it inierfered with the Re., emit ine Service, and elso because he was aware that t hi s n ce i e wOird be inadeottateeei die end for whieh, it was designed, that, of an effieleut and imm,rdiate Military 'force ; he was assured the t rear d isCon. tent would arise in the- body on gist eSsembling, • and that they would be much too delicient in milt. tary skill to justify the holes which were toter. caned themo e —TheseWere the grounds n o ', l i e n he differed from his Right Hon. Friend; at ,the sama time, if this measurewes Successful in Pa in rliaineet, heshould do every Thing, in his power to render it. efficient ; for that he Celt aieithers felt for the safety of the Country, and only differed from others as to the weiios of preserving it. Mr, PITT said, his Right lion. Friend had this_ conceieed his - argument on the 'sobjeCt of ,Recruit_ ing—He only contended, that this laid the foutida. don for Recruiting at a distant period ; but that in the case oft projeeted Invasion, we should not de.. lay the raising of this Force. Another part he was still more anxious about wits this, that he Consider. ed this only it 3 a l -art of what "(vas to he done for our safety, and, that Much more was to folloW to the same purpose. lie should expo t to hear something to this effea when the Bill was in the Committee, from other quarte rs, if not, he shoUld have scitne.' thing to propose upon it Itirotelf, Lord CASTLE la 4011 said he wished the pre.. scut subjeetio meet the fullest discussion. He admit. . tell, with his Right Hon. Frieud, that:the ohjed of the Enemy was the subjegetioit of this Country, Out he diXered with that Right lion, Gentleman as: to the means,whiclt they pos,zssed of effecting the; Ile could not howevcr conceive why the Right- Hoe: Gentleman should think it necessary to discus's whether London-was a primary or scoot. dary objeCtof consideration : nothing but .a degree of baseness or eowaidice in the people-of this Court. try, which he could not for a moment suppo s e, suffer the Enemy to'. - leivitnee far haul the' shore. The Right Hon. Gentleman 'had gone into . one extreme, with tespettto relying upon the cf‘ cieacy of regular Troops, almost to'the eitelusion of all other, and lied then .gone into anotber treme, and contended for the advantages resulting from irregular Troops, instancing La ,Vendee still the Right Hon.GeetleMan had contended that the . present meaSere went to consul toe an ine ffi cient Force. The C ountry feet the atriemtages and , the happiness which they ereeyed under their present Constitution and . Government, and feel that it was necessary so ,make great efforts to defend them. , The argurriente of the Right Hon. Gentleman went to this alteriiarive, that there must be either a much : larger 14'orce.maintained ire time of Peace, or that' we coast be Much weaker at. the commencement Of a War: , The Militi;t was a force which eittsetU' littie expencein time of Nece,tand was perfealk ready for service at the .Coiennencetnenc of a W A G He felt the necessity of piecing Ore Country so completely , of danger, al to put an .end to all specoktion on the part of, this •Enemy,as to the probable succ e ss of :my 4:newt 'againtt it. With respeet to the objetioe of this .measine interfering with the recruiting for tile Line; it would on the contrary. ' tiesisl it ; these wile sere in' be 'enrolied.under the prestet Bill, were to be permitted to enlist in p.,giirlents 01 the ,Line, and: there was every reason to believe that a . Militetty spirit would beititused into th em .which 411;,. more-readily induce them to. tnter into the 1,1h1.,, and that there Would be a better chance of Primt4l: men -lOr that service: who had ii()t ma,it. ti'.o their minds upon that subject. Right Honoutable 17riend, had said diet there were many :old and. infirm Officers can, the Half.nay list unfit fat ser., vice, but it should he teeollated that -there were twenty Battalions' di'shauded last year, whnsti • services were fete - a limited time, the Ofhiers, of which there was .every reason to believe were ettedive, and beeides, it was not Mendatory in 'His Majesty to appoint thrice unity ; anti if new Regiments were to be raised aceortlieg to the pro.. position of his Right Hon.. Friend, they must he officered - in the same way. lie conceived that no mtasure - was better ealcoleted to produce. the desired efika chart the present; and that the experiment cf Tioape of the , Line, peetiosed by hit P,igitt Hon. ?fiend, woulti-place the Country in great dart. ger. With respect to the Recruiting Service being