The Sun. — London, England, 1821-05-05 00:00:00

et, wt,: Mr. Cooper, the Hon. Member witharcw - the petition, 'tut intimat:d that he would take another oppo:tunity of sub .mitting a :motion on the. subject. R2ISREPRE .-3ENTATION. _ _ Mr. MACKENZI E comphined of the report which had hem published of a speech of Mr. G. Bennet on the army esti niatt., which coLtained expressions highly offensive to the feel a person lidding a high office in Scotland. He men tio.aed the-Subject now for the purptue of giving The Hon. Gent. an•opOrtunity of doing justize to an individual, whose feelings had ueen hurt by what he (Mr. Mackenzie} believed to be a misrep:esentation of the remarks made by the Hon. Gent. Mr. G. BENNET entered into an explanation of some leng,th ; but pot a sentence of what he said was audible in the , : 2,I..ACKENZIE expressed himstif perfectly satisfied vita the Hon. Gentleman's explarution. General. GASCOYNE nresetted a petition from Liverpool, praying for a revision of the penal laws.—Ordered to be printed. BE'NNET presented a petition from a naval.officer (whose name - was not mentioned by the clerk on reading the petition) stating that in consequence of his having been appoint ed to a situation in Greenwich Hospital, a pension to which he would otherwise have been entitled was withheld from him, and praying, the House to•take the hardship of his case into consi deration. .The lion. Meiriber stated that this officer had lost an eye in. the service, was deprived of the use of one of his limbs, had his jaw brokers, and his face lacerated in such a shocking manner that he could hardly open his mouth; and all the allowance granted him was only 22t11. a year, whereas had he received the pensions to which his wounds and long ser vice entitled him, he would have 701. a year. CROKER would not enter into a detail of this case, which I - sad already been twice or thrice before the House. The fact was, that this officer, as a matter of favour, was appointed to a situation in Greenwich Hospital long before he was entitled to a pension. After a few words from Mr._ tENNET and Sir ISAAC COF FIX, the petition was read .and laid on the table. Sir G. IiEATHCOTE presented a petition from Boston, praying for an alteration of the criminal laws.—Ordered to be printed. DUTY ON SUGAR. Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the Directors of the Chambers of Commerce and Manufactures in Manchester, • against the increased duty on East India Sugars. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER vindicate-1 the policy of laying a higher duty on East India sugars than on those made in the West 'lndia colonies. After a few observations from Mr. BERNAL, the petition was brought up and read. Lord STANLEY, in reply to the Chancellor of the Exche quer, supported the prayer of the petition. Mr. RICARDO objected altogether to the principle of this tax, which recognised the policy of giving the produce of one country a preference to that of another. Mr. G. BE should like to know why the consumer in this country should pay one shilling more for sugar to the West India colonies than he could purchase it for in any other market.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was intolerable that the people of Great Britain should be called upon to pay an additional price to persons who had invested their capital in a traffic in human flesh.—(Hear, hear !)—He wos equally inclined to stand up for the people of England against the land-holder, who claimed a pretesting price for grain against the ship-owner and lumber man, who wished to supply the . consumer with timber of in ferior quality and higher price, in order to give employment to their chips—and against the West India trader, who wished to exclude from the British markets all sugars but those of the West India colonies. • Mr. GORDON observed, that the principles contained in his Hon. Friend's Lecture on Political Economy, might be very well suited to a Utopian system of Government, but the appli cation of them would be found altogether impracticable in the H circumstances of this country. e complained of the terms dealers in human flesh" which his Hon. Friend had applied to the West India Merchants. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained. Mr. BARHAM observed, that if many severe restrictions had been imposed on the West India Colonies, in order to fa y= other ports of the Empire, it was but fair that such re strictions should be made in favour of these Colonies as would allow them to exist'. He defended the West India Merchants With warmth from the imputation which his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bennet) had thrown out against them, _and expressed his be lief, that when his Hon. Friend reflected on the cruel injustice of the language he had used, he would be disposed to re tract it. Mr. BERNAL, with all the respect he had for the humae nity of his Hon. Friend, wondered that he should allow the • heat of the moment to delude his understanding. He was con -vinced that if his Hon. Friend inquired into the system of slave :management, he would find it to be one of humanity, His lion. Friend must know that the language he had used would go abroad, and operate to the prejudice of the West India -traders ; and therefore lie trusted he would retract the asperity 4.)f the. expression which he had applied to them. Mr. BENNET did not believe, from all the inquiries he had made, that the system of the slave management was one of hu manity. To many individuals who were concerned in the West India trade his observations were not intended to apply : for instance, of his Hon. Friend behind him (Mr. Barham), whose feelings seemed to be the most hurt, he could have no hesitation to say that he believed nothing could be more humane than his . tondutt in every respect.--(Hear, hear !)—But he would main tain to the last moment of his existence, that the system of em ploying slaves was founded on a principle that could not be re conciled to humanity. Mr. GORDON said that since his Honourable Friend would rot retract, he should not speak on subjects which he did not understand. Si: R. WILSON had been in countries where slavery ex isted. ; and his conviction was that the system was cruel in the extreme, and the sooner it was abolished the better, . Dr. LUSHINGTON observed, that where slavery was tole rated it was, impossible that the principles of humanity should roe 'he occasionally violated. Against individuals connected with the West India trade his Honourable Friend (Mr. Ben. net) had thrown out no charge, but against the principles of the slave system, which must ever be productive of human misery ; a td tnat opinion he (Dr. Lushington) should ever express when an opportunity occurred. The petition was then ordered to be printed. • BULL BAITING. Lord STANLEY presented another petition from the Ma gistrates and Inhabitants of the town of Rochdale, against the pradtice of Bull Baiting. Mr. WILBRAIIAM supported the prayer of the petition, and_ mentioned several accidents which had been caused by the practice complained of.—The petition was ordered to be printed. CRIMINAL LAW. After a short conversation between Mr. F. BUXTON' and the Marquess of LONDONDERRY, and an understanding that the delay was not to be urged as an argument against the mea sure; the second reading of the Forgery Punishment Mitigation Bill, the Dwelling House Robbery Bill, and the Navigable Rivers Robbery Bill, was postponed to the 16th inst. On the motion of Dr. LUSHINGTON, an Address was or derisi to be presented to his Majesty, for various Papers, spe cifying the sums paid by his Majesty's Government to the Governments and the subjects of Spain and Portugal, as con nected with the abolition of the Slave Trade by those coun tries, &c. STAT.E OF EUROPE. _ . On the motion of the Marquess of LONDON.. E.P.11", that the House do resolve itself into a - Committee of Supply, Mr. C. H. llllTc;rissoN rose to submit the motion of which he had. given notice. He began 'by; observing that it was not his intention on the present occasion to interfere (as some Hon. Mem ners seemed to have imagined) in any deg ree with the subject on which a Noble Lord ( Lord VI. Bentinck) had given a notice. If he thought that his motion would anticipate, or at all inter fere with that of the Noble Lord, he certainly -would not press it ; but feeling that both sub. jests were quite distinct, he would press his, which he considered of serious importance. In entering upon so vast and important a subject, he was conscious of his own inadequacy to the task. Jfe would, however, open his vietv of it to the House, confident that it would be ably enlarged upon by those Hon. Members who should sup port him. Looking at the present situation of Europe, he could not but feel considerable ap prehension, as well at the nature of the events which were passing, as at the conduct of this government with respect to them. When the situation of Italy was brought before Parliament in February last, Ministers declared that it was not their intention to interfere with Naples. The paper which was atthat time laid before, and made the subject of discussion in the other House, de ,clared.that the intentions of our government were those of strict neutrality ; hut, nevertheless, they were not backward in showing what:their feelings were, and how far those feelings were against the cause of the Neapolitans. It was then contended that the object of the Austrians was not aggrandise njernent, but the security of their Italian posses sions. It was then thought by many, that the Neapolitans and other Italian States would have had sufficient force to repel the aggression of Austria, and glad he would have been if the whole of the force sent by the tyrannical govern ment of Austria had been destroyed. But what had happened y Naples was now completely under the Austrian yoke ; the kingdom of Sar dinia was likewise in her possession ; but not withstanding this, we found that an immense body of Russians were rushing from their woods to give assistance to Austria, which he sincerely regretted that Austria did not need. Thus we saw that Austria was in full possession of Italy— the Russians advancing in great force to support that power ; while she was preparing to govern her newly acquired possessions, for such he would consider them, with a most bloody code ; Greece was in a state of disturbance, and Spain so much alarmed for her own safety as to be obliged to proclaim Military Law. He would ask the Noble Lord (Londonderry) whether he could continue to see tyranny making such rapid strides over Europe, without advising the in terference of this great Country, to prevent its triumphal establishment ? The Honourable Member then went on at considerable length to show that it was the policy of this Coun try to prevent the ambitious views of Russia and Austria from taking effect ; that the peace of Europe, as well as the security of England her self, depended upon such timely interference. The object of those despots (for by no other name would he describe the Allied Monarchs) was, he contended, nothing less than the destruction of civil liberty in every part of Europe ; and, he maintained, that they would attempt it in Spain and Portugal, if unchecked by the interference of this country. The principle of such interference would, he said, be by no means new : England had on very many memo rable occasions interfered to preserve the balance of power in Europe. She had waged a long war to preserve it against the ambition of Louis X[V. Our late war with France was on the same prin ciple, and he feared that if we did not prevent it by timely interference, we should have to enter when it might perhaps be too late into another war to check the ambition of Alexander. Eng land had also kept herself in an armed state for fourteen months in consequence of the aggressions of the Empress Catherine of Russia, and a' sus picion that she was about to occupy Oczakow. No person at that time was so absurd as to sup pose that the safety of England itself was me naced at that time. No : her interference was gounded on the principle of preserving the balance of power in Europe. The Hon. Member then contended that the situation of the Russian and Austrian armies at the present moment, and the professed intentions of those two powers, called loudly for the interference of this country; and that the Ministers would not do their duty if, on the march of the first Russian or Austrian army towards Spain, they did not declare open war against whichever of those powers should first attempt the invasion of that country. He also maintained that we ought to declare war against France, if she suffered any of the allied troops to pass to Spain through her territories. He would go farther, and state that the first hos tile movement of Russia for such an object as he had mentioned, ought to be immediately followed on our part by the sending of a large fleet to the Baltic, and blocking up every one of the Russian ports, which would soon have the effect of oblig ing that power to retract its measures. Nor did he think that the exertions of Ministers (if they at all viewed the conduct of those great powers with jealousy) ought to stop here : he would have England enter into an alliance offensive and defensive with Spain, be on good • terms with France, and by such means, by the aid of our navy, we might defy the attempts of all the des. pots of the world united. If some such steps were not taken speedily, he thought they would come too late. If we did not take a command ing attitude now, we might wish in vain to do so when our wish would not avail us much. He had no doubt that Austria and Russia were act ing with views of territorial aggrandisement, and about to do on a great scale that of which the Noble Marquess (Londonderry) had, in con junction with the Ministers of other Govern ments, set them an example at Vienna and Paris in 1814 and 1815, and at Aix-la-Chapelle in 1818. They had before them the example of Belgium annexed to Holland, of the stripping of Saxony, of the surrender of Genoa to Sardinia, and many other instances of gross injustice per petrated wad sanctioned to aggrandize favoured powers. Such examples would not be lost on them, and such, he feared, they were too well disposed to imitate. His object on the present occasion was, that his Majesty's Ministers should, by a timely interference, prevent the attempts of Russia and Austria from taking effect. He felt satisfied that Europe was not safe in its present state ; and to mark his sense of the situation in which we stood, he would move, as an, amend, ment to the motion for going into a Committee of Supply, that the house should resolve' itself into a Committee to consider the state of the na tion as far as regarded European politics. His object, on this occasion, was not to retard the Navy Estimates, which were to be moved in the Committee of Supply ; but he thought the pre sent opportunity ought not to be lost, and that we should interfere before it was too late. The Hon. Member concluded by moving his amend ment, which was seconded by Sir R. Wiesner. On the amendment being put from the Chair, _ _ The Marquess of LONDONAERRY said that he was sure no Member of that House would feel disposed•to counteract the spirit of the amend ment of the lion. Member for Cork ; but an amendment of such a nature appeared to him quite foreign to the present question. lie.knew that great latitude could be taken on a question of supply, and that there was no topic connected with the policy of the country which might not be entered into on such a question. But really he was not prepared to enter into a discussion on the state of Europe, when the question was the supply of Navy Estimates ; still less was he pre pared, on such a question, to take an enlarged and particular investigation of European politics, ever so far back as the seizure of Oczakoff. He was not prepared, when the House was to go into discussions on the Navy Estimates, although he had heard of the notice 'entered on the orders by the Hon. Member respecting events passing in Europe, to hear statements of the nature now sub mitted by the lion. Member. He had supposed that the notice referred to some propositions to dispense with the Navy Estimates on -account of the state of Europe ; but instead of suggesting a plan for cutting down the Estimates and of call ing the attention of the House this night to economy, the lion. Member had come forward with observations which might have been more naturally made in the form of an impeachment, in a committee on the state of she nation, against his Majesty's Ministers, or rather against him parti cularly (the Marquess of L.) as secretary for foreign affairs, for not having placed the country in a state of armament. The Hon. Member must really excuse him if he did not accept of the good advice he had offered to him, either by explaining on this occasion all the views of the Government relative to the state of Europe, or by justifying their conduct in having failed to demand money of Parliament for arming this country against the other States of Europe. The lion. Member Irad offered a great many advices, among others , , the blockading of all the ports of Europe. Many other very salutary instructions the lion. Member had offered, which certainly were very much thrown away upon his Majesty's Ministers. Ministers did not see exactly how they could make use of those instructions; per haps the Hon. Member did not see his own mind so clearly as to state the use Ministers ought to', make of his views. He (the Marquis of Lon donderry),must also decline to plead to the ac cusation of having neglected to place this cowl try in the relative position which it ought to oc cupy ; nor could he be expected to do so unless the whole state of Europe were under the consi deration of the House. It was not to be gravely said that Ministers ought to be goaded to call for money from Parliament for the purpose of inter ference in the affairs of other States, and to jus tify the - views and considerations on which they had failed to make such a call upon Parliament. The lion. Member must excuse him from either justifying the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, or calling upon Parliament to vote money for in terference with the Powers of Europe. Hon. Members on the opposite side of the House ought, for their own sakes, not to be so ready in giving their advice respecting the affairs of Europe. He had formerly heard many advices given respecting Naples, when lie had declared that his Majesty's Ministers did not feel themselves called upon even to give an opinion respecting the situation of that country, and respecting other powers, for the course they had thought necessary to pursue.— He had also thought it was _ then extremely in discreet to discuss the proposition whether we ought not to interfere with Austria for the mea sures she had adopted against the danger which she apprehended to her dominions. He (the Marquis of Londonderry) would very much ad vise Hon. Members on the opposite side to ex ercise their minds on subjects accessible to their judgments, and to, apply their judgments to events which have been realized, and which cannot mis lead their fancies. lie would advise them to act on realities, to confine their theories and pro phecies to subjects which had really established themselves to the understandings of the world, and not to discuss possibilities, or rather impos sibilities. He advised this exercise of prudence and discretion, because the contrary course of conduct was a waste of time, and because it de rogated from the weight which the opinions of the lion. Members ought to have in that House. With respect to the Russian army, he had only to remark that it did not follow, that because it had been put in motion with a , view to certain events which had now ceased to call for its inter ference, it was in motion now. lie begged not to be understood to say that the Russian army was not now in motion. lie would not prophecy., and would not be understood to prophecy, that the Russian army would not advance further. He felt not the slightest disposition to accumulate false pro phecies :• he would state what he knew to be fact; and by doing so he would explain how the Russian army had come to be put in motion. Certain events which had Occurred in Europe had been made the subject of panegyric by some Hon. Members— panegyrics in which he had not concurred ; for in his view," though liberty might grow out of those events, yet he never would dignify with the name of liberty military insurrection for pulling down•all-the-'establishments of a country, or for putting up, or faking the chance of putting up, other establishments in their room. One of those military insurrections had taken place-in Pied mont. • •,The lattt Monarch had resigned in favour of his brother die-Prince, who acted as Regtnt, and soon withdrew from the kingdom; and the first act of the new government was to declare , , svar against Austria. He would say nothing of what position Austria might have assumed ; but the declaration of war came from the children of liberty. In this situation the King of Sardinia applied to Austria for assistance in putting down the insurrection of his subjects ; and Austria ap plied to Russia for forces to support her against the attack threatened by the Piedmontese. In consequence of this application, Russia ordered troops to march from the Turkish frontiers, and part of them, he believed, entered the Austrian 'dominions, It did not follow, however, that because • they were once in march,' they must continue in march. The insurrectionary Government of Piedmont soon ceased to exist : it was put down by the loyal troops of the King of Sardinia, and very partially by Austrian troops. The Austrian troops had only shewu themselves on the frontier. The Hon. Member on the third bench (Mr. C. Hutchinson) ought to have hesi tated before he charged Austria with any designs of overrunning Piedmont. Count Bubna had had nos instruction to interfere in time proceed ings ; and when, in the exercise of what the Noble Lord thought a very sound judgment, he determined to enter into the territories of Pied motet, he Interfered as little as possible. This did not savour very much of a grand plan of over running the world. Ile must then protest against this mode of coming down to the House, and putting his Majesty's Ministers in a state of ac cusation for not having sent armies to disturb the peace of Europe. He had said before, and he could now carry the declaration down to the, present moment, that nothing had occurred to afford ground for interference on the part of this country, and that no reason. had appeared for suspectino. the Powers of Europe of any in tention of a.hostile kind. This country, he ad mitted, ought to watch with jealousy the great movements on the part of the continental powers ; but peace was an ohject of the first importance at the present moment to this country, and therefore we ought not to interfere without a real necessity. He was fixed in the_pnrsuasion that his Majesty's Ministers had followed the only true line of po licy, and that the interests of this country were not to be found in meddling with the affairs of the continent. No circumstances had yet occurred to call for our interference : he would not say that no circumstances might occur to make our interference necessary and proper; he would not fetter the Government by such a general propo sition ; but at present our soundest policy and our best interests were consulted by ❑ot meddling in the proceedings on the continent. Sir fsaAc CoiriN trusted that the Hon. Gen tleman who moved the amendment would; from his conviction of the necessity of maintaining a large force by sea, attempt to make some addi tiou3 to the navy establishment. - Sir R. Wir.sox said, it was his firm opinion, that the Noble Marquis and his illustrious Col leagues were so completely entangled with con federate 'tyrants, that they could not pursue the proper policy, even if they felt disposed.— (II ear, hear!)--He had no doubt -the Noble Marquis had seen with satisfaction the overthrow of the new Constitution of Naples, because it benefited the people, and because it was calcu lated to protect those rights which Spain was now so determined to defend. The Noble Mar quis had thought fit to taunt them with the vic tory of the Austrians. He (Sir Robert Wilson) did not mean to .deny the disastrous calamity that had occurred ; but still he saw no cause for I , despondency, he could see no reason for that abject and cowardly despair. If there was cause for any despair, it was of that manly and generous quality that fired men's minds with noble sentiments, and urged them' on to ac tion and to arms.—(Hear, bear !)—Does the Noble Marquis forget the state of Austria ? ls he ignorant of her situation with respect to the affairs of Greece ? Under these circumstances he saw no reason for Austria to triumph, nor for. Europe (aye, and the people of England amongst them) to despair. We have still all the mate rials for a great war; we have innumerable mul-• titUdes, we enjoy a position by nature impreg nable. It would be only necessary for Spain to say, like ancient Rome, " Our country is in dan ger," ahd she will find thousands rushing for ward to assist her, merely because she is opress ed, and all animated with the glorious spirit of protecting the liberties of mankind. If the Greeks should prove themselve worthy of free dom, it will be a novelty in their character ; still all men must rejoice at seeing such an im provement in so interesting a people. With re gard to the motion of his Hon. Friend, he was sure he had no disposition to provoke hostilities; he was actuated like himself with a disposition to preserve the independence of England ; for he should never like to see her in a condition in which she would be unable to support the station to which she was entitled. It was for this reason he did not vote for the reduction of the army, because he thought it necessary to intimidate fo reign tyrants, and he was sure that his constituents and his country ivouid do him credit for his mo tives.—(Hear !) Colonel DAVIES said, that he understood from the speech of the Noble Marquis, that the Russian troops would not pro ceed farther than where the last accounts left them.. He wished to ask whether the Noble Lord was in possession of any official information to that effect. As to the conduct of the Italians, it was of so dastardly a character, that he was become quite indif ferent to any,thing which might Wel them. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that he could not have received any official communications upon the subject. He had only reasoned that the object having been accomplished for which the Russian troops were put in motion, they would ' now return to the stations which they before occupied, • Sir R. WILSON begged to ask the Noble Marquess if 'he could inform the House whether Alexandria was in the posses sion of the Austrian troops or of the Sardinians. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY repeated his state ment as to the march of General Eubna, which was without the orders of the Austrian Government, and in consequence of a requisition from' the King of Sardinia. He could only ob serve, that that fortress surrendered to a Captain of Dragoons and 60 men. Sir R. WILSON said, that the question was not at all af fected by the amount of the force. Ile had heard that when the garrison surrendered, the keys were given up, and he wish ed to know whether they were delivered into the hands of the Austrian or the Siirdinian troops. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY could not answer the Hon. Member's question, for be had never heard of the anecdote. The amendment was then negatived without a division. A Message was received from the Lords, announcing that their Lordships had agreed to the Bank Cash Payments' Bills, the African Companies' Bill, and some others. Upon the *motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Mr. C. HUTCHINSON rose to reply to what had previ ously fallen from the Noble Marquess opposite. He was not disposed to believe that the real object of Austria in calling in the PUisian troops, was her own protection. She could not have bad so much alarm at the proceedings which had taken place ; and if she had, the result proved. how much she had been mistaken in hrr calculations. -• The Marquis of LONDONDERRY observed, that as one of the most' distinguished Officers of the age (Sir R. \Yam) lied been so far mistaken in his estimate of the measure of re sistance which would be opposed to the Austrians in Naple's and Italy, the /lon. Member could not complain of the mu take to which he had alluded. Sir R. IVILSON and Colonel DAVIS explained. Uon the motion being again put from the Chair, Mr. flumE rose to oppose going into the Com mittee. After paying some compliments to the Navy, the lion. Member proceeded to argue that it was kept up at too great an expence to the country. The principle of his objections to these Estimates referred to the items for tear and wear, in which very great reductions ought to be made. He did not mean to say that considerable re ductions had not been made in the gross amount of the Navy Estimates, but he contend ed that they ought to be carried much farther. In the year 1815 the Estimates amounted to 5,985,0001.; in 1818 to 6,5.47,000/.; in 1819 to 6,520,000/. ; in 1820 to 6,691,0004 ; and this year they were decreased to the amount of 350,559/.• The House would theyefore recollect that he was not arguing upon the ground that no. reduction had taken place. He would ask the House whether the country was in a condition to support the expence ? . There was some difficulty in ascertaining the exact expence of the Navy in former years; but it was clear that the Esti mate for - the year 2 Iva* 40.,985,000t. for 16,0(X) men. The Su ly now Calivi for was 'all' togethe r six minions, and the nurnbei of men was only 6,000 more than th a t vo t e d forlhe y e ar 1792. No one could deny that this difference was greater than it ought to be. He would now advert to the number of ships, for the purpose of looking at the expence' of the - three principal Offices connected with the Admiralty. In the year 1813 we were engaged in a very extended warfare, we had upwards of 600 ships in com mission, and upwards of 300 in ordinary. A l ar ge establishment, therefore, for these offices was un doubtedly necessary. The expence of the Navy, the Admiralty, and the Pay Office in that y e ar amounted to 189,227/. Now, we had but 11 9 ships in commission, and .582 in ordinary ; and yet the expence of these Offices was only 8000/. less than it was in the year 1813. Before the , House went into a Committee upon this subject, he thought it highly .desirable that they sh o uld consider whether these offices could not be re. duced. If so many ship s cou ld be managed in cornmission.at the expence he had mentioned for the year 1813 ; it was fair to conclude that 3 much less expence was necessary for the management of so reduced a number of ships as he had mentioned with reference to the present time. lie now came to another very important part of the subject—he meant the Dock-yards; and upon - this subject of expence he wished it to be understood that his observation applied not to the workmen, but to persons holding higher situations. The expence on this head in the year 1813, was 212,1431., and the estimate now proposed was 210,7451., being onl y ' 1398/. less than th e expence of 1813, a year 0f very heavy 'var. The difference in the Ordinary Estimates was also very great, as compared with the year 1792, being Upwards of a million more than the estimates of that year. In the Extra" ordinary Estimates the increase of expence in the '' last two years was no less than two millions. It was stated that we had twice as many ships °,. 5 , the united navies of the rest of th e wor ld. '" this was the case, it became a question whether it was necessary for us to go on with this in' creased expence. The improvement in the Dock yard it was stated amounted in the last 3 years to upwards of a million, and it was added that another million would be required for their com pletion. He could see nothing to justify- this enormous expence, or to warrant the great dis parity between the expence of the year 1792 and that of the present time, especially as we were now in the same situation (as regarded the con tinent,) in which we were in that year. He was satisfied that at all events the necessity of re trenchment would be clearly shown betlveen the present time and the next year; and that the retrenchment must ultimately be adopted. The Hon. Member concluded b.y moving, as an -amend i ment ) a resolution declaratory of the amount °f the the comparative expence for th e years 1792, 1811 1821, of the several departments referred t ° • his speech. • • Sir GEORGE WARRENDER *said, that alth °l34ll he should not follow the Hon. Member through: his several details, many of which were 0 ,r ° 0 ,.. neous, he should nevertheless touch upon a l e _f of the more important points. The Estimates.:i the year 1792, which had been so much ret ie upon by the Hon. Member, did not constitour,L, the whole of the expence of that year by a civ siderable sum. With regard to the Admir"-, 110 Offices, it was to be observed, that originally t.. 14 i s a e rn v o e u ra ti l ted Offi to ce a rs con ‘ s F i e d r e e r . ali p l e e id sun h l y a f n e d P s t , hi l s vb fi l : i o e r r , %-. psi wasnoce since y t h e aer n dy l o se d .a er This system a . y s m y is e ,t n iel thet em f g o rh r oawat h beenOo f ffi t c l e i e r es s he o u_ f e. !,. ,: " 8A; blishments had been productive of economy- , rt the House would he better able to decide uPue.. the subject in the Committee than upon the_P ote sent motion, he should refrain from any lin i examination of the lion. Member's details. e a The Amendment was then put and nega!,ic if t• 1 se without a division, and the House resolved into a Committee. , ro pese Sir GEORGE WARRENDER, in rising to r; - 0 her the Estimates, observed, that the lion. I'vl e ' n T e (Mr. Hume) had adverted very frequently t° moderate expenee of the year 1799. ; but it that"l impossible to judge fairly upon reference to cv, year. A .salary of 10Q/. a year at that perio d j ' e ri cl often led to perquisites of 10001. a ye ar and more. The system had now been altered, regular salaries were mbstituted for percli js , , ,.. , Now, a public officer had no inducement to c (1 ; i0 tenance an abuse ; and he was encourag e ",h, have no object in view but the promotion . ° ' r i c public service. The introduction of tasl‘-w c "„, and of a check upon the expenditure of the yard, had very materially contributed to the, 01 ' minution of the expense. He was happy to in', the House, that the Naval Service had be e 'd brought to such a state of efficiency, that it I been found perfectly safe to issue an order % r e , discontinuance of one-fifth of the works. duction of this description must of course b e 4 ' u 24 dual, and it could not be expected tha t v ni ea rs reduction would take place in the earlie r ny „ on of peace. Inquiries, however, were the foot, whh the view to a reduction, 11° ' - f the inferior Clerks, but of the higher OfficercL, Ye ar Establishments ; and before the close of the :vs would be carried into effect. it was confidently expected that those reclucLi°:_as been determined that as vacancies occurred should not be filled up, but that the duties ofre'r vacant office should be transferred to ot°,, e officers.—(Hear, hear I)—The present estimate was increased by particular and local circu t °: _ stances; especially those connected w ith n o : Board of Longitude and the Expedition of Dis c in the L aw' very 'and there was also an increase the Expences. He had also to state that as Widows' Fund was principally supported by te er ductions from the pay of seamen, whose was now reduced, it became necessary to provide. _6. for the support of this fund.out of the Already it h n ey The Naval Asylum was about to be rectilcc`? •