The Sun. — London, England, 1845-02-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 18. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack shortly after Five o'clock. Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from the Provost, Magistrates, and Councillors of Edinburgh, on a subject that agitated Scotland, namely, the change that they anticipated was about to be made in the banking of Scotland, which had existed for upwards of one hundred and fifty years. It would give him great satisfaction if any member of her Majesty's Government would give any assurance that the fears of the petitioners wore without foundation. Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from the merchants of Barbadoes with respect to the new propo sition relative to the sugar duties. SAMUEL GRAY'S CASE. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Samuel Gray, of Ballymahon, in the county of Monaghan, complaining of the conduct of the Crown prosecutors, in having tried him six times for an offence charged against him, and fur which he was acquitted on the first trial. The jury, he stated, had been dismissed. because they agreed on two of these occasions to acquit him. The petitioner added, that he was broken and ruined in health and property by these persecutions, and therefore he prayed the House that he might be allowed the use of counsel on any future trial. Lord CAMPBELL made one or two remarks which were almost inaudible. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that, though the petitioner had been charged with only one offence, there were several counts in the indictment. The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb..lE. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. The Hon. H. FITZROY, lately created one of the Lords of the Admiralty, took the oaths and his seat for the borough of Lewes. REPORT OF SUB•COMMITTEE OF THE STANDING ORDERS ON RAILWAY BILLS. Sir W. HEATHCOTE brought up the report cf the Sub-Committee on the standing orders on private Bills. The following Railway Bills were reported to have complied with the standing orders:—The Manchester and Birmingham Extension, the Leeds and Bradford, the North British, the London and South-Western, the Leeds and West Riding Junction, the Leeds, Sheffield, and Manchester, the West York, and other Bills. MEDICAL REFORM BILL. Mr. BECKETT presented a petition from the Medical practitioners of Leeds, expressing the approval of parts of the proposed Medical Reform Bill, and declaring their conviction that the removal of the present restrictions would only have the effect of encouraging quackery. Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petition from Man chester, in favour of the Medical Reform Bill. FACTORIES ACT. Mr. BROTIIERTON presented petitions from Ren frewshire and other places in Scotland, praying that the provisions of the Factories Act might be extended to bleach wthrks. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Lord RENDLESIIAM presented a petition which he requested might be read by the clerk at the table—it complained of the general agricultural distress, of the burdens that press upon agriculture, and prayed for the repeal of the malt-tax. MEDICAL REFORM BILL. Lord MARSIIAM presented a petition from the Isle of Sheppy, in Kent, against the Medical Reform Bill. Mr. \V ODEHOUSE presented a petition from a ;.lace in Norrolk,rgainst the Medical Reform Bill. THE MALT-TAX. The HoN. MEMBER also presente;l a petition from the same place, f)r the repeal of the malt-tax. MEDICAL REFORM BILL. Mr. F. FRENCH presented a petition from a place in Ireland in favour of the Medical Reform Bill. THE MALT-TAX. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN presented a petition from a place in Sussex for the repeal of the malt-tax. NAVIGATION OF THE TYNE. Mr. MATHESON presented a petition for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the navigation of the Tyne. INCREASE OF THEY NAVY. - Mr. HAWES presented a petition from certain indi viduals who were opposed to war, against the proposed increase of the navy. THE TRINITY HOUSE. Mr. HUTT presented a petition from Hull, complain ing of the mode of . election of the brothers of the Trinity House. MEDICAL REFORM. Mr. 0. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from York against the Medical Reform Bill. GAME LAWS —BUCKINGHAMSHIRE. Mr. BRIG Irr presented a petition from Aylesbury against the game-laAs, which the petitioners described as tending to increase crime, and to aggravate the dis tress of the farmers, by destroying tk , ir crops. MEDICAL HEFORNT. Sir G. GREY presented a petition from some medical practitioners of Devonport, against certain provisions of the Medical Reform Bill. Mr. S. WORTLEY presented a similar petition, from a place in Yorkshire. MINISTERIAL CHANGES—NEW WRITS. .Mr. YOUNG moved for a new writ for the Eastern Division of the County of Kent, in the room of the Right Hon. Sir Edward Knatchbull, Part., who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.—(Cheers and laughter.) —Ordered. The HoN. MISIBEII also moved fur a new writ for the borough of Thetford, in the room of William Bingham Baring, tsq., who had accepted the office of her Majesty's Paymaster-General.—(Hear, hear.) NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. COWPER gave notice that he would, on the 4th of March, move for leave to bring in a Bill on the sub ject of gardens. Mr. WILLIAMS gave notice that he would, in Com mittee on Ways and Means, move that all persons re ceiving public money in Ireland be subject to the same income-tax as in Eniiland. Mr. MACKINNON postponed his motion on> the health of towns. Sir R. INGLIS postponed for a week his motion on ierra Leone. Dr. BOWRING postponed his motion on the public accounts till Tuesday next. BURDENS ON LAND. Mr. WARD gave notice that he would, on this day fortnight, renew his motion respecting the exclusive and particular burdens on land SUGAR DUTIES. Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that he would, on moving the order of the day for going into Committee of Ways and Means for the purpose of proposing the sugar duties, move a resolution by way of amendment, .6 That it is the opinion of this House that the plan pro posed by her Mijesty's Government in reference to the sugar duties, professing to keep up a distinction between free-labour sugar and foreign slave-grown sugar, is impolitic, snd would aggravate the evils of a protecting duty to their colonies at the expense of the consumer; ild tend to impair the revenue, and render the re moval of the property and income-tax, at the end of three years, very improbable and uncertain."—(Hear.) BARLEY. Mr. WODEHOUSE gave notice of his intention, on a future day, to move for certain returns respecting the importation of bailey. BONDED BUTTER. _ Mr. EWAUT moved for a return of the quantity of butter destroyed in bond in the different ports of the - United kingdom during the last four years, with the dates of the several periods at uhich such destruction took place, and the quantity destroyed at each period. - FOREIGN JURISDICTION ACT. Mr. MILES moved for copies of any Orders in Ccancit issued since the end of last session of Parliament, with reference to the Foreign Jurisdiction Act ; and copies of any diplomatic correspondence that may have taken place with resptct to consular jurisdiction in the Levant UNION WORKHOUSES (IRELAND). Sir R. FERGUSON moved for a return, in provinces, of the Lumber of children sent out to service from the union workhouses in Ireland in the years 1842, 1843, and 1844, distinguishing boys from girls , with the average ages of eaci', the average wages per half-year, the number returned to the house in each half-year ; Ist, on account of sickness ; 2d, on account of miscon duct or of quarrel with their master ; and 3d, on com pleting their time of se:vice ; also, those remaining out at the end of each year, and the number of boys at pre sent acquiring a knowledge of some trade, distinguishing - whether shoemakers, tailors, or other trades. DISTRESSED FRAME-WORK KNITTERS. - Mr. FERRAND gave notice that he would to-morrow oak the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department whether it was his Intention to lay upon the table of the House the report of Mr. Moggeridge, the Commissioner who was sent down to the Midland Conn 'ties to inquire into the distress among frame-work 'knitters, EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN IN FACTORIES. Lord ASHLEY rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill toregulate the labour of children in the calico print-works of. Great Britain and, Ireland. The Noble Lord said the subject he was about to bring under the notice of the - House he hid so repeatedly had the honour of bringing forward, that he did not expect the House would de rive any material interest from its novelty or the evi desve or arguments to be adduced in its favour. But he did hope that the House would be good enough to extend to him a patient hearing, because he was about . t 9 bring forward the case of a large class, which had . never yet been represented in that House. He was about • to speak' in behalf of a very lar g e body, who were lunch oppressed, .and had ben altogether forgotten,but whose interests were of great value to themselve s ; and, if taken in connexion with their contemporary labourers, of great influence on the empire at l arge. I move in th a t Howe furn . 1840 he had the honour to Commission to inquire into the employment of chi d ren a in the various departments of • labour; that Commisso%made a very am pl e r e p o rt ; in the summary Of that report al they mad e th ese s t atemen t s: —They stated in a ge n eral the children employed in therevvie"wn oftrtillscoanndd,t m io ennuo f factures of th s e i r l c i c a. h lm l, , ,e e r x e cl i u n s l i t v l e i r l e y a d c r i o i t i h t e children employed . in factories, severalat a previous time, thousands, that with respect to great masses of ° be might say several hundreds of thou sand s, hist of children of their Of tender years, there were many beginning to work at the early age of three a n n c d e t s ' many more between five and six, and that, in g e neral, years. regular employment began between seven and eight ; of the whole number of children employed in different trades in manufactures, a large portion were nnder thir teen years of ag e , and in a very large proportion of these trades fe male children were employed at an equally tender age ; tbat in a great number of instances the employment was continued for fifteen, sixteen, or even eighteen hours consecutively, and that in almost every instance the children were worked as lung as the adults. Schools were wholly beyond the reach of the children, on account of the early age at which they were sent to work. This was the summary presented by the Commissioners, adduced from a large survey of a cdnsie • derable number of children employed in the various trades and manufactures of the realm. Of all these cruel and pernicious employments—pernicious he meant in the extent to which they were carried—one only was brought under their consideration ; be had the honour of proposing to the House the removal of females from employment in collieries ; but of all the various trades and manufactures that had been investigated, that was the only one that had been submitted to the House. In every other respect all had been left undone ; not one hour had been struck off their term of labour, not an hour had ken added to their recreation ; and they had not had she advantage of a power which had been brought to bear on the other cases—they had not had the advantage of public opinion—public opinion had not been awakened in their behalf. At this he was not astonished, when he considered the enormous labour it would require to wade through these ponderous folios, to arrive at all the information con tained in them, and to drag to light all these records of suffering, ignorance, and shame.—(hear.) But it ni;glit be said that he perhaps vas chargeable with that neglect, and that it was his duty to have brought the matter under the consideration of the House. Undoubtedly it W4B more his duty than any other man's, but his excuse was that he had not had the opportunity, and most undoubtedly he had not had very great encouragement. He was now, however, prepared to take up the subject, and he did hope that, in consideration of the urgency of the case and also of the moderation of his proposals, the House would be induced to give him some part, it' not the whole, of that which he w as asking in behalf of these young persons. He hoped it would be borne in mind throughout the whole of this discussion that he limited his demand en tirely to those children under the age of thirteen— which were children by the definition of the Factory Act. The vast proportion of these were females, and con sequently demanded more especial protection from that House. Ile did not think that in the exclusion of those of more advanced ages justice and humanity would be satisfied; but the demand he now made was made in accordence with what he could obtain, and not in accordance with that which he considered was required. The trade which he would especially cull the attention of the House to was that of the calico printing, with all its subsidiary processes of bleaching and dying, which trade was carried on, according to the report of the Commissioners, to the greatest extent in the cotton districts of Lanca shire, Cheshire, and Derbyshire. There were a few printing establishments in the neighbourhood of London and Dublin. He would just state to the House, on the authority of the Commissioners, what were the ages at which children begin their employment. The Commis sioners stated that in Lancashire and Cheshire instances occurred of children beginnine , as early as between four and five years of age, several between five and six, many between six and seven, still more between seven and eight, and the great majority between eight and nine. In the east of Scotland children commenced work at the same early ege. A parochial minister, of the name of Dempster, stated that they commenced work as early as five years of age, and consequently from being taken from school so early they knew nothing beyond the alphabet. There were exceptions to this rule in the print works of Kent. In the works of Mr. Sweeting there were only two chil dren of five years of age, and in those of Mr. Apple garth there were only six under thirteen years of age. In Ireland the system presented a remarkable contrast to the state of things in England ; showing, as it did, a most remarkable care for children of tender years. Out of 803 persons employed only 109 were under 13 years of age. The Commissioners stated that a very large proportion of the children and young persons were girls In Lincolnshire upwards of one third of those above 13 years of age were females. Now, he would just show, as far as it could be ascertained, the whole number of those employed. From the returns obtained in the present week from Lancashire, Cheshire, and Derbyshire, it appeared that the number of children under 13 years of age was 5,346. It must be borne in mind that these returns gave only the number of chil dren actually employed at the time. It often happened that the works were standing, and he believed it would ap pear that the total number for which provision was made in the factories was not less than 8,492. In the West of Scotland the number was estimated at 5,000 ; but the Commissioners said that this was exceedingly under the mark, and the total number mentioned in his return amounted in fact to 13,492. From all the inquiries which he could make on the subject, he was convinced that the total number of children employed in these several branches of industry, was not less than 25,000. He would Row state to the House, what must have a very important influence on the moral character of those employed, the state of the places in which this work was carried on. The Commissioners said that no thing could be worse than the state of these places. It was undoubtedly true that there were many proprie tors who paid as much attention to drainage, ventilation, and warmth, as circumstances would admit. But, on the other hand, there were many other places which were in a most detestable condition. The atmosphere of the dashing rooms was stated to be so filthy that the children's eyes were extremely irritated, and even affected into inflammation by the particles of filth and dust with which it was impregnated. The stoves were occasionally red hot, and the tempera ture of the apartments generally from eighty-five to a hundred degrees. He found children, between eleven and twelve years of age, working fourteen hours a day, in a temperature of a hundred and ten degrees of heat. Sometimes, too, wet garments were dryed in these rooms, and the air was, consequently, more noxious. The Noble Lord then quot , d the opinion of Mr. Davis, a surgeon, that at particular seasons such labour was unfit for females. The continuity of the labour was the principal objection. If the periods of toil were diminished, much good would be effected. (The Noble Lord was here quite inaudible in the gallery.) The nominal hours of working, as stated in the rules of the establishment, are fair enough, but they are by no means the actual hours of employment ; as it was not at all uncommon for children of from five to six y ears old to work from fourteen to sixteen hours a day. Now, in Cheshire and Derbyshire, and other pieces, the time for adults was not allowed to exceed twelve hours a day ; but in those places, too, those were only nominal hours, for there were scarcely any regulations at all, inasmuch as that the people worked by the piece, and were, therefore al ' lowed to work as many hours a day as they pleased. He (Lord Ashley) was aware that in bringing evidence of this kind before the House, he would be trespassing to a great extent upon the patience of the House ; but, as there could be no doubting its authenticity, he would rather support his case by such evidence as this, which did not admit of dispute, than call upon the House to rely ur on any statement of his own. He would now read the evidence of one of the work men. The Noble Lord then read the statement, which was to the effect that the workman, whose account he was reading, "had often gone to work at nine o'clock nn Wednesday night, and did not leave off tia Satur day night ; and that a boy did the same. This would scarcely be believed, but nevertheless it was true, that he never left the shop from Wednesday to Saturday night ; that he was him self completely knocked up at the end of that time, and the boy was almost insensible ; while there were se veral others who came on the Monday, and did not leave until the following Monday." The next statement he would read; was :that of a man named Henry Richardson, who stated that he worked all day and all night. In the West of Scotland the nominal working hours were from six in the morning till six in the evening, yet in the report of the Sub- Commissioner it was stated that instead of regular hours he had found young girls working as much as eighteen hours a day. These long hours were not necessary. That they could be dispensed with was proved by what had occurred in such large firms, as Greg's, Watson's, and Jackson's. These houses had not been able to carry on even the re duced hours of labour fur three months together. When he called for reduced hours of labour for young people, especially in these works, it was chiefly for those periods of the year when (as we understood) they were least able to endure those protracted hours. Of all the f. atures of this employment, that which he was now about to describe was the most abhorrent—that was, the practice of night weir k. According to the reports of the inspectors the practice was carried on ; and in some districts it was so general and constant that it might be called part of the system, and where it was not car ried on the establishment might be considered an exception to the rule. Relays of children took place at different times—sometimes from six to six, sometimes from twelve to twelve, and at others from four in the morning to four in the evening. Now, lie would show the House what was the opinion of the children them selvee. [The Noble Lord then read extracts from the evidence, but in a rapid and indistinct manner very difficult to follow. They were to the following eff,'ct] :—Eliza Hales, eight years of age, had worked all night, four nights of the week, before she was six years old. William —, nearly nine years of age, a tierman, had frequeney worked all night. He had worked all day and night. John Candy, nine years old, had come to the works at six o'clock on Friday morning, and had worked all day and night, until six o'clock on Saturday morning. He had been obliged to take snuff to keep himself. awake. William Archer said he knew men who worked three clays and three nights without going home. The same state of things existed in Scotland, but in Ireland. which appeared here also to the highest advantage, there was in general no night work. Since the improvement in ma chinery, however, there was a decrease in the labour of the children. Their physical condition was improved since that improvement had taken place, but with regard to the moral state, the evidence was most lamentable. Their education was almost totally neglected, and the parents thought it better to get two-pence more for their labour than to let them go to school. They were quite ignorant of moral restraint, and gave themselves up to pilfering, drunkenness and crime. Mr. Evans gave testimony to the effect, that the number of scholars in his school bad decreased one-half since 1832 ; and it should bo recollected that this took place, notwith standing the increase in the population from 1832 to 1842, at which time Mr. Evans gave his evidence. It was not surprising, after this, that the Central Commis • sioners should say in their report that the time which the females were at work prevented them from learning needle-work and those careful habits of order, without which they could not economise their husbands' earn ings, or bestow upon their homes any degree of comfort, and that general want of qualification of wives in women ofth p at re c , l .a as a s im ws stated by clergymen and medical men, and em ployers, causes nfT witnesses, crime hose atuodbiemmonoeraoliftythaemognrgeastt the working el l asttm. not to ois continue the words of the Commissioners n t tr e ue e ? vil. What was that state of things the remedy he proposed fur propose the total abolition of night-work for a l lfe Nvould of whatever age, and all of both sexes under thirteen . (near, bear.) He was entirely of opinion that no loss would accrue from this arrangement to the employers; ' and if that were so, was it not the highest and most sacred duty to apply a remedy to a state of things fraught with so much immorality and crime ? Night-work was proved to be most injurious to the eyes, and was most lamentable in that respect. The Commissioners had not stated any countervailing advantages to the employers from their night-work. There was more work spoiled by night than there was by day. One of the largest manufacturers in the world, Mr. R. Hargrave, of Ackworth, had shown that a great deal of work had been spoiled by night-work. The average loss of spoiled work upon the machine was 10 per cent , while the average loss in quantity upon spoiled work, from night-work, was 50 per cent. The re sult was that the loss upon spoiled work was to an im mense extent— to such an extent, in fact, that night-work was equally injurious to the employer and the employed. —(Hear, hear.) He had received two letters from two of the most respectable overlookers in Lancashire—Mr. John Graham and Mr. Davis, and those gentlemen had given him permission to make those letters public. Mr. Graham said he had recommended his em ployers to give up night-work as far as women, young persons, and children were concerned, on the score of economy. And Mr. Davis said that Mr. Thompson had been induced to give up night-work, partly on the score of humanity and partly on the score of economy. On the score of humanity with a view of securing to the women and children a proper night's rest, and on the score of economy, be cause the loss upon the spoiled work more than coun terbalanced the gain upon the extra night-work. He was bound to say, however, that those gentlemen, Messrs. Davis and Graham, did not recommend the short ening of the hours of labour in certain cases, but. never theless, they fully admitted that the evils, in many in stances, were too manifest. He should propose that, after October, 1846, no child, under thirteen years of age, should be allowed to work more than eight hours a day in a week of six days, or twelve hours a day in three alter nate days. He should propose making provision by his Act for the education of children. Two hours a day would be allowed for educational purposes to children who worked eight hours a day for six days in the week ; and three hours to be permitted the children who worked on three alternate days in the week. Now, he did not know whether it was ne cessary that he should meet beforehand the arguments likely to be adduced against his Bill. He might be told that the parents were sufficiently ca pable of providing for the welfare of their children, and, therefore, no legislative enactment was neces sary to force them to do so. The inquiries he had made on this part of the subject led to a different conclusion ; and although they had ample means to afford their children education, they preferred the pence they earned to providing for their future welfare. He might be told that poverty was the cause of this—that poverty was the great reason that induced them to send their children to work. But if they attended to the evidence of the Commission ers, particularly that of Mr. J. Symons, they would find that this was not so much the case. He felt that he had wearied the House,and he had but little more to say on the evidence of the state of these unfortunate creatures. He had great fears that the repetition of individual cases, and the frequent reiteration of subjects of the same class, must become exceedingly tedious to the House. i But it might Le that he suffered almost as much as he inflicted. The extent of the research and corre spondence, and the mass of labour, cheered by little or no prospects of success, sufficiently proved that his endeavours had not been warmly responded to. It was necessary that an attempt should be made, and better to do so even though failure should ensue. On what ground opposition would be made to this motion he knew not. He had guarded with the ut most caution against speaking injuriously of the cha racter and conduct of individuals. He had en deavoured to expose a pernicious system without hurting the feeling s of any man. In all the debates on the sub ject it h ad been conceded that protection should be ex tended to very young childrex. Their inexperience, their helplessness, the deep interest the Legislature was supposed to have in their moral and physical welfare, had been urged as reasons why protection ought to have be: n extended to persons of such tender years. ' It had been at first stated that such children might be safely left to the affectionate solicitude of parents and masters, but the Legislature thought and enacted other wise. The measure of 1832, though an imperfect mea sure, had been productive of relief to thousands. Per petual attempts had been made to drive them from their purpose, but no taunts would drive him from. his purpose. He had been told that there had been far worse evils than those he had brought under the notice of the House. In the first introduction of the Factories Bill, when he had invaded the collieries, he had been referred to the printing-house, and thence they wished to drive him to the corn-laws. Let it be so ; but he would ask the ad vocates of abolition of the corn-laws, what more that abolition would do than perpetuate the present state of commercial prosperity. They had cheap provisions and abundant employment; and yet in these favourable cir cumstances what was the actual condition of the chil dren ? The repeal of the corn-laws would leave those children as it found them. Whatever good it might do to other classes, it would do no good to them. But here he would most solemnly declare, that if he believed the repearof the corn-laws would place these many thousands in a condition of comfort, and keep them so, he solemnly declared that, in spite of every difficulty, he would vote at once for the entire abolition of the corn-laws. He had been asked where he would stop. In reply, he had no hesitation in saying, Nowhere, so long as any portion of this great evil remained to be abated. He confessed that his desire and ambition was to give the labouring children of this empire the opportunity of education. He would continue to labour in this work while he had the slightest hope of success. Would any man deny that this was a subject well worthy of the deliberation of that House ? Let the House look at the increasing facilities which had taken place for mischief. What was called the march of intellect had facilitated the means of mischief. He would only just refer to those valuable tables which had been prepared at the Home-office on this subject. In 1843, 13 persons were hung for murder. There were three females who had murdered their hus bands, two males who had murdered their wives, one person who had murdered a child, and one who had murdered her father. In a summary of this state of things, published in a magazine in 1844, and written by Mr. Symonds, a barrister, it was stated that murder and rape had increased 38 per cent. on the average of the last four years, rapes 57 per cent., other horrid offences 53 per cent., arson, which exhibited malice in its worst shape, 28 per cent. The newspapers con stantly detailed crimes which iu novelty and atrociousness exceeded the imagination of mataltied. He would not dwell on the subject, but there were two cases so gross that the records of sin in . England pre sented few instances of similar wickedness. One mother had poisoned four of her children in succession, merely for the sake of the burial fees ; another had held her daughter over the fire till it was burned to death. If they would not, as a nation, undertake the task of re moving such crimes, let them not, by the continuance of the present system, render it impossible to re move them. Means had been taken of late years, schools were multiplied, and qualified persons, both within and without the Established Church. were ready to devote their energies to this work. But the entire absorption of the children, by almost unceaQing toil in so many departments of industry, had defeated all their efforts. Time was when men maintained that utter ignorance and exclusive labour were the best gua rantees for the tranquillity of a people—a most aweful delu sion. The people in the ale -houses listened to composi tions in prose and vere, written with great force and power, and embellished with all the attractions of modern art, compositions so seductively written that in them they found vice and violence dignified into heroism. The guilt was the guilt of the Legislature, who encouraged that guilt by conniving at it. The Legislature could not disguise from themselves that they were standing on a very rotten foundation. They might augment their revenue, they might increase their navy, and extend their commerce. These were all very good things, but they were very little in themselves, and affor dedl but a very weak foundation, whilst they neglected the moral and physical welfare of the great mass of the people.—(Hear, hear.) All might appear very well and prosperous; but the hour of difficulty would discover that the Government of this country had done nothing to secure external liberty or internal peace.—(Hear.) But sti.l they were left without hope, nor, perhaps, bad they anything to fear but from indifference and neglect.—(Hear.) He trusted still in Providence.—(Hear, hear.) There were great and increasing means of good.—(Hear, hear.) The vast progress of human ingenuity and power, as de veleped in the increase:and improvement of steam-boats, railways, and machinery of every kind, might be con verted into instruments of mighty benefit. Let the State direct its efforts to these ends, and the Almighty would prosper their endeavours, and its children would rise and bless it.—(The Noble Lord sat down amidst cheers.) Sir J. GRAHAM said that although he had the mis fortune often to differ from the Noble Lord in the views of the questions which he brought before the House, yet he recognised the purity of motive—(Hear)--the single ness of purpose, and the honesty of means with which the Noble Lord endeavoured to attain the great objects which he had at heart, and also the touching eloquence with which he enforced his views. The Noble Lord regretted that he should be obliged to bring this subject under the consideration of the House, but he was sure that there was no Hon. Member in that House but gave the Noble Lord credit for the purity of motive which influenced him in this matter. The Noble Lord had introduced many other topics to the notice of the House, which were well worthy of their attention. He (Sir James Graham) was happy to observe that the Noble Lord did not overlook, in addition to the moral condition to which reference had been made in such choice languag e , the physical con dition of the working classes of this country. And, without undervaluing in any degree the moral tuition necessary to the bettering of their condition, he ceuld not, at the same time, concede that the physical training n s h ou ld a be character. a that Lordleassve n r e p, gl ol c rhg t te e he d eN . nosubu T mlbe h jbe e Lecrot ro d%fehtrh wer e ed observations o made by t tc N o b l e pi l; utas m f i n a a f s o t r m e nie s t n d t a th e facturers took a paternal interest in the condition of their workers. They tried to insure their health and comfort, and he stated that, in consequence, the condition of the children was materially improved—greatly improved as compared with that of children employed in other branches of our manufac tures.—He (Sir J. Graham) thought that, if they were to go on regulating for the labour of children in fac tories, they could not have a measure more moderate and better in principle than that propounded by the Noble Lord. It now became his duty to call the attention of the House to the step which his Noble Friend asked him to take. There were several marked and strong distinc tions between the labour with respect to which his Noble Friend asked him to interfere, and factory la bour. In the first place, it could not be d.nied that those particular processes of manufactures— namely, THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 19, 1845. prints and dye-works —were, speaking generally, hehlthy occupations. Many of the processes took place in the open air. Some of the processes must be carried on in a high state of temperature, but, speaking generally, the children employed in these works were healthy, and the operation could not be said to be unhealthy. The marked feature of fac tory labour, with which they dealt last year, was labour conducted by machinery. Now, v.hat were the facts with respect to it ? Why, that it was easily regulated with respect to time,and the labour might be stopped with out injury. All these cireatestances were wanting with respect to calico-printing, because, when once the process began, it must be continuously carried on without inter ruption until completed, otherwise the work runs a risk of being destroyed or irrevocably injured. With respect to the work there were months in the year when they were deemed to be slack, and there were other periods when the works must be continuous Now, with regard to the employment of young children, it would not be possible for the manufacturers to avoid employing them; and for this reason, that unless the manufacturers were satisfied to sacrifice a large amount of profit, the employment of children would be indis pensably necessary. His Noble Friend had mentioned another branch of mantencturine employment, that whi:h was called block-printing. Now' this was a branch of trade to which the profits would not admit the appli cation of manual labour, as it would not pay, and therefore it was that children were employed in that department; they did the work as well as adults, and therefore their services were required to carry it on. If, then, the Legislature were to raise the wages of children to the amount of that of adults, the result would be, either the total suspension of that branch of manufac tures, or the wages would be so much increased that the article, the produce of block-printing, would be so in creased in price as to materially retard the consumption. He had mentioned those circumstances in order that the House might see the necessity of drawing a line of dis tinction between the different departments of labour in manufactories. But now permit him to mention a few of the peculiar and increasing difficulties that exist to prevent legislation upon this subject. He believed it had been stated that in France the legislative regula tions with regard to the mode of employing children were very satisfactory. But in France the machinery used was not the steam power, and the labour was not so con centrated ; and the consequence was, that, according to the reports of the medical men, it was not so easy to deal with disease as in the English factories ; that eva sion was practical to a great extent, and the result of that evasion was, that while the idle and dishonest man benefited by it, the honest labourer was placed under the most cruel disadvantages. Now he begged to observe, that in the particular trade to which the Noble Lord had directly alluded, the hours of labour were comparatively short, and in many instances there was no night-work at all. If the system of inspection advocated by the Noble Lord were carried out, the honest manufacturer would be placed in an unfavourable position, while op portunities would be afforded to the dishonest employer to evade the law. He was bound to state that late hour work had existed, but not to the serious extent stated by the Noble Lord. Late hour work was disadvantageous to the manufacturers, and it was to their interest to repress it. When late hour work did occur, it was occeeioned by competition, and the House ought to be cautious how they legislated with the interests of the labourer. He did not object to the introduction of the measure, but he was bound to give his consent to it with considerable reluctance, because the Noble Lord appeared to proceed further with this system of legislation. The question, then, was, how far were they go, and where ought they , to stop ? If they went too far in interfering with the re gulations of the working population of the country, there was no doubt it would be attended with serious results. At the same time, he could not refuse to consent to the introduction of the Bill, but he must reserve for himself and the Government the most perfect discretion with respect to the mode in which the details of the Bill were to be carried out. Mr. WALLACE was happy to find the Government gave their consent to the introduction of this measure. From the cautious manner in which the Right Hon. Baronet had allowed the Bill to be introduced, it would be necessary for all parties to make out an extremely good case before they could be admitted to partake of its exemptions. The Right Hon. Baronet had distinctly stated there were three classes of persons who might be said to be included in the proposal of the Noble Lord. Now he did think the dyeing and bleaching departments ought to be considered as coming under the category of the Noble Lord, and he would take leave to intimate that it was his intention to make an effort to prevail upon the House to include these branches in the Bill. It would be his duty to bring their case under the consideration of the House when the Bill arrived at the proper stage for his doing so. and he trusted he should succeed in prevailing upon the House to include them in the Bill. Mr. HUME was glad to hear the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet, and the conclusion he had come to. He agreed with the Noble Lord in lamenting the pre sent condition of the labouring classes, but he must, at the same time, remind the Noble Lord that the manu facturing population was not the only suffering part of the community. Distress existed as well in the agricultural as in the manufacturing dis tricts. He only differed from the Noble Lord in the remedy he proposed. The Noble Lord was taking a wrong course to effect his object ; and although the Government had yielded last year—reluctantly, no doubt —to some of his proposals, thinking them to be of a beneficial tendency, still they might unconsciously carry this system of interference too far. He warned the Government of this, and cautioned Honour able Members to watch the progress of the Bill when it should be again brought before them. Every act of legislation on such a subject was an act of useless interference in the affairs of manufacturers—an were ary . obligedmischievous.But thet o l fEl a ti3 b hg o il u si rswh r t— e re a country unjust interference between masters and labourers which cwmohiugel might et n pb o ee t r but sonne : b e e s h a i n s wwearse atss country of slaves, then, indeed, l eg i s l at i ve i n t er f erence f i t liberty to work where he liked —he might make what agreement he pleased, h e m i g h t work as he liked. There were some who thought the Le • 1 gis attire ought to stand in the place of a parent, and to interfere to protect women and children. He was not one of those. He admitted that isolated acts of oppression might take place, but he never would admit that any stranger could step in effectually to supply the place of a parent. Doubt less in some cases, under existing circumstances, parents might be found who would urge their children to undue labour, but where food was cheap and labour abundant, where, in fact, society was properly constituted, he could not believe that such a state of things could exist. He did not believe that such a state of things existed generally:at present. Ile believed that the Noble Lori had been told of certain extraordinary cases, and he must protest against any . legislative interference in the matter, which, in his opinion, would do more evil than good. If the rule were laid down, it should be made applicable to all parents and all children. He was at a loss to know why the Noble Lord should select one class of the commu nity for legislative protection, while he left the others destitute. It was contrary to nature to interfere in this manner,—it was bad—it was erroneous—children ought to be left to the management of their parents. If so ciety was in that state which the Noble Lord had stated, let him direct his exertions towards removing the root of the evil. Why was it that in England, which was reck oned the most enlightened country in the world, there were so ma ny monsters who disgraced the human form, and why was it that parents, in order to obtain a liveli hood, were obliged to place their tender offspring in situations of difficulty and dans er P If the Noble Lord would visit the dwellings of the poor in the Metro polis—(Hear, hear)—he would find there misery equal to that which he had depicted as existing in the manufacturing districts. Before he sat down he would call the attention of the Noble Lord to a pamphlet upon the working classes, addressed to the Right Rev, the Bishop of Exeter. The Hon. Member proceeded to read. ' extracts from the pamphlet, one of which said that phi lanthropy was a good thing, when under the guidance of wisdom and prudence ; but highly mischievous and pro ductive of great evil when used by meddling persons. The extract quoted went further to speak of the acts of certain persons high in station, and to say that all busy - bodies were dangerous, but the worst of all a Govern ment busy-body, for the one interfered only with the welfare of twits, the other with the existence of mil lions. The Legislature, continued the Hon. Gentleman, should give the people an opportunity of making the most of their labour, and should remove those fetters which monopolj , and class interests had placed upon in dustry. The working classes, so far from asking pro tection, desired to have protection abolished—they want a fair day's wages for a fair day's work, full employ ment, and an opportunity of sending their labour to the best market.—(Hear.) Mr. COBDEN did not altogether coincide in the ob servations of the Right Hon. Baronet regarding calico printers, hut would offer a few observations on the speech of the Noble Lord. He gave the Noble Lord great cre dit for his motives, but he must say that he did not see what reference the numerous instances of great demora lisation had on the ptestion before the House. He did not pretend to say that people employed in calico-printing were treated worse than other people. But surely it was not necessary, in speaking of calico-printing, to relate how many people had been sentenced to death for mur der, arson, and other great crimes ; nor could he, for ,the life of him, see what the burning of a child to death by its own mother had to do with the subject under the consideration of the House. These things led the public mind to suppose that calico -printing was necessarily of a demoralising nature; and he left the House to say whether it was fair to encourage such a belief. The Noble Lord had said a great deal about the duration of the employment of children in this branch of manufac ture, but the fact was, where children were employed in an apartment where the temperament was mild, and not hurtful to their constitutions, and where they were shel tered from the inclemency of the weather—they had 3s. a week, whilst the children in agricultural employments were exposed to the severity of the weather, and had to work hard for is. 6d. a week. The Noble Lord said that children engaged in calico-printing were addicted to lying, stealing, and qu • quarrelling. He confessed he could . . see no reason why children in this department should be more vicious than others; nor had the Noble Lord shown any reason. In one or two matters the Noble Lord had cer tainly exaggerated—for instance, in stating that children of three and four years o f age had been employed in calico-printing. The Noble Lord had not given is authority, but surely he s hould know that it was morally and physically impossible that children of such tender age could labour.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord quoted cases in which children worked for long periods without any intermission ; but he, Mr. Cobden, could only say he had never heard of such cases. The Noble Lord had attempted to give a tone and bearing to this subject which did not naturally belong to it. In calico printing, and other trades of the same kind, the time of labour was not fixed or compulsory ; they did not begin and cease with the steam-engine, as in other branches— it was the wish of their parents that children should be employed—they worked in the same room with them, under their eye, and mighf leave off when they thought proper. It was not here as in the cotton mills; their time was free, and if they overworked themselves it was their own or their parents' fault. The Noble Lord sought to bring them under the Chinese system of le gislation ; he would have inspectors go into every house and prescribe the hours of toil. He thought the N ible Lord meant well, on the whole, but was sometimes led away by misstatements ; he, Mr. Cobden, would be very happy, as a practical man, to give the Noble Loid any information which he might apply for.—(Hear.) Mr. WAKLEY said that the Right Hon. Gentleman had, as an act of civility towards the Noble Lord, allowed him to bring in his Bill ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman had 'determined to give the Bill the most strenuous opposition in his power. Sir JAMES GRAHAM—I studiously avoided making any such declaration. Mr. WAKLEY—And las studiously inferred it. He hinted the Government had determined to give the Bill all the opposition in their power. If the Noble Lord prodeeded, and the friends of humanity were moved in the matter, he anticipated for the Noble Lord a victory —a splendid victory, and he called upon the Noble Lord not to be dismayed when he obtained it.—(Hear, hear.) He should press on his forces after triumph, with the same ardour es before, until the object was fully accom plished. He could not forget what occurred last session. The Noble Lord did not expect success on a former occasion, and seemed dismayed when he obtained it. The Honourable Member for Stockport said that it was impossible that children of three or four years of age could be employed in the manner stated by the Noble Lord, and in this he agreed with him ; but the Hon. Member had not stated at what ages they were employed, whether at five, or six, or seven years, and he refrained from denying the alle gations which the Noble Lord had made in moving for leave to bring in the Bill. A truly painful description had been given of the toil to which these pour children were devoted ; and was it possible that the House would evince so keen a sympathy for foreign slaves, aid not protect their own infant slaves ?—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had stated that 25,000 children were so em ployed, and from what he could learn, he was induced to think the system denounced by the Noble Lord was a system of infant slavery, and, notwithstanding the ob servations of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Montrose, he thought the benevolence of the Legislature could not be better employed than in rescuing those helpless creatures from such cruelty and thraldom. It was a dis grace to Parliament that they had not striven to remedy this evil, and he wished the Noble Lord all the success which his efforts so well merited. The Noble Lord should, however, extend his researches and inquiries into the agricultural districts, where he had found quite as much destitution and suffering as elsewhere, and, until he did so, his exertions would not be divested of suspicion and one-sidedness. He would be very anxious to vote for a Committee to inquire into the condition of the rural districts. He considered the question, as the Right Hon. Baronet hat! stated, was one of profit; bat was profit to be put in competition with the lives of thousands of poor children?—(Hear, hear.) In Ireland, men performed the same labour in calica-printing which was done here by children, which showed that their services were not essential, and that they were employed because their wages was less. Re garding the question of education, he thought the House greatly to blame for neglecting it so grossly. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) said, educate the men ; but he (Mr. Wakley) said, educate the children, for yon never can make a bad man a good boy.—(Laughter.) The condition of the poor of this country, in point of education, was la mentable. He entreated the Noble Lord to persevere in his labours, which would produce the greatest benefits to society; and he hoped the Noble Lord would live to see the fruits of his benevolent exertions. But he must not be dismayed or discouraged when he found himself unsuccessful, but must go steadily onwards in pursuit of the great object he had in view. Mr. MARK PHILLIPS thought it was a matter of great importance that this question should beapproached in a candid spirit, and stripped of all exaggeration or prejudice. The term " slaves " had been applied to 25,000 children employed in a particular branch of manufactures. He entered his protest against the ap plication of such a word, which was wholly inapplicable. The greater part of the children were brought into the factory by their own parents, and worked no longer than their parents pleased. The parents were much more concerned in their labour than their masters--they were not bound to work for any specified period, nor to have a certain quantity of work performed by a certain time No such thing—their time was free, and so were their handl, and if they worked long the master did not ask them. The parent sought to perform a great quantity of work. and if the energies of the child were over taxed, the fault was not, he repeated, the master's, but the parent's. Lord ASHLEY, in replying, said that he merely wished to thank Hon. Members on both sides of the House for the kindness extended to him. His great desire was to ameliorate the condition of the children working in the different branches of their manufactures, and while preserving his own principles inviolate, he was quite ready to receive any suggeations advanced by other Hon. Members upon the subject. Ho was quite ready to con cede anything short of the principles ho had ever advk.- cated upon this subject. Mr. LABOUCHERE hoped that the Noble Lord would fix an early day for the second reading of his measure, as the House and the country were singularly situated, in consequence of the line taken by by the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Rome Department and the Government upon this question. it e was surprised that on a question of this nature, involving principles which had been brought so frequently before the House, and considering the ample means the Right Hon. Baronet possessed of inquiring into its operation— considering the liability that lay upon him of assisting the Factory Commissioners with his advice and judg ment, he (Mr. Labouchere) thought it strange, to say the least of it, that the Right Hon. Baronet had not given the House and the country some clue to the intentions of her Majesty's Ministers. Whatever difference of opinion might exist upon that question, one thing was mast cer tain, that any postponement of the question—or any mystery as to the intentions of her Majesty's Govern ment, would create and keep alive a feeling between the ern• ployers and the employed, which would be most prejudicial to both their interests.—(Hear, hear.) It was not his intention to enter into the merits of the question, or to argue as to the necessity for this resolution enforcing a regulation of the hours of labour, but he could not avoid giving his concurrence to the excellent remarks made by the Hon. Member for Stockport, that the ob servations made by the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire as to the amount of crime in the manufac turing districts, was rather overcharged. His observa tions would seem to infer that those crimes were solely the result of evils peculiarly attending the social system in the manufacturing districts, and that they could not be found at all in the agricultural counties. But, with all these faults, he (Mr. Labouchere) was glad to find a member of his rank and character stand up in that House, endeavouring to relieve misery, and to uproot crimes, which they all acknowledge to exist. But while admiring the spirit in which the subject was brought before them, he might be per mitted to doubt the utility of the measure itself, as a preventative to crime. His object in rising, ' however, was simply to express his regret that on a question of this importance—a question which excited such intense interest among all classes—a question in volving in such a degree the principles of justice and of humanity, the Right Hon. Baronet had not given a more decided opinion on the part of the Government. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. COMMITTEE TO INQUIRE INTO THE MA- NAGEMENT OF LIGHTHOUSES, &c. Sir GEORGE CLERK requested the Hon. Member fur Montrose to postpone for a time his motion respect ing the management of lighthouses, floating lights, &c. It would be exceedingly inconvenient to bring it torward that evening, and therefore it was that he requested the Hon. Member to postpone it for a day or two. Mr. HUME had no objection to its postponement. He had nothing to say on a subject so well known, and therefore if the Hon. Baronet would allow hizi to intro duce it, on some Government night, he would at once ac ccde to the Right Hon. Baronet's request. He would, in the meantime, postpone it till Thursday week, and the Right Hon. Baronet might, in the meantime, confer with his colleagues, and let him (Mr. Hume) know if it could be brought forward on that day. The motion was then postponed. POST-OFFICE ESPIONAGE. Mr. DUNCOMBE, in rising to bring on the motion of which he had given notice, namely, the unsatisfactory and evasive nature of the report of the secret Committee appointed to-inquire into the opening and &mining of letters, said that he had promised the House, on the first day of ele session, that he should call the attention of the House to the unsatisfactory and evasive character of the report emanating from the secret Committee ap mpthoueinchteinditctutaiotty i intoctru should h r t e ho ue a n p t o otsht we- onhffia t c bee. h e and ds mightph painful fru e p l lg i r e t d e t ut r et m yd to fulfil the promise he had then made. He regretted more that he could not have brought the subject on at an earlier period, but his consolation was, that the fault was not his. The report had been made at so late a period of the last session, that it was quite impossible for him to call the attention of the House to it et that time. It was not his fault that he was obliged to call the atten tion of the House to it now, for, if that report had been satisfactory, the necessity for such a course would have been avoided. He needed not to remind the House as to what occurred when the question was first introduced to the House. They were all aware that he had the honour of presenting a petition from M. Mazaini and another gentleman complaining that their letters had been opened. That petition was ordered to be printed, and the Secretary of State at the time got up in his place to give the House some explanation relative to the matter. He had then stated, that certain letters had been opened by virtue of a warrant granted by le - m, but he refused to divulge the date when such warrant was issued. A very short time afterwards, lee (Mr. Duncombe) presented another petition from an officer who had held a high position in the Polish service, Captain Stoltman, complaining that his letters had been opened and read, and on that occasion also the Right Hon. Baronet had screened himself behind the mystery in which h e h a d or i g i na l ly enveloped himself. He refused to say when the warrants in that case were issued, and he (Mr. Duncombe) then moved that that petition should be referred to a Select Committee of the House. An objection was raised to that motion ; but on a division of the House lie was sup ported by 164 and opposed by 108. thus giving a ma jority of 56 in his favour. Not satisfied with that defeat, the Government influenced the House, and on a Select Committee being appointed to investigate into the prac tice of that department of her Majesty's Post-office com monly called the Secret Chamber, to inquire into its workings and the authority by which it was constituted, and report on the expediency of the law on which the delay in the delivery of post letters was based, his wishes were met by an amendment, that the Committee should be a secret orke. lie (Mr, Duncombe) objected at once to the constitution of that Committee. He ob jected to the course which the Government took—to the course which the Right Hon. Baronet took—but his ob jections were over-ruled, and he was required to place before that Board all the charges which he had made in the House of Commons. He did not attend, and the real reason he would tell them afterwards. There was not an ind:vidual on that Committee in whom he could trust—not one member in whom he had the smallest confidence.—(Hear, hear.) He objected, lastly, that the reports of the Secret Committee could not be satisfac tory to the country, as the reports of Secret Committees never were; and if any man doubted the correctness of that, he wished him to examine into the subject. The Committee had instructions to furnish the House with a report stating the origin of the right in law, and the expediency for its con tinuance on the statute-book. The Right Hon. Baronet having appointed and nominated his own jury—having, as he said himself, referred his honour to that Commit tee—v et reserved to himself the privilege of addressing the House in the event of the Committee's report being unfavourable. He (Mr. Duncombe) also reserved to himself the privilege of bringing up the question again, provided the report of that Committee were unsatisfac tory, and in fu'filietent he, that evening, rose for a fresh inquiry. If he made cut that in the statements put forth in that report there was gross incorrectness, in stead of certainty. misconstruction instead of simple and honest truth, reservation av; e e frankness was re quired, if he proved that the honour of En, hind, the honour of the Geverninent ought to have commanded that simple truths should have been given, and if he showed that such had not been the case, then he thought the House would grant that a searching inquiry was ab solutely necessary into one and every of his charges sgainst the Government and against the Right Hon. Baronet.—(Hear.) He was before that Committee relied to prove the charges niate against the Right [lon. Baronet in his place in Parliament, and he would read from the paper what he said at the time, before that Committee. He stated first, that in the precincts of that Secret-office private correspondence was violated — that in that place letters were opened, resealed, then forwarded to their destination, and the correspondence itself sent to foreign and despotic Powers. He stated, that the Secretary of State for the Home Department had exceeded his powers, and had made a most uncon stitutional and dishonourable use of the powers en trusted to him.—(Hear, hear.) He had added, that there were more letters opened during the time he had been in office, than in that of any Secretary who had preceded him. He stated that he had received letters from foreigners, complaining that the hospitality of England had been violated; that their letters had been opened at the instigation of foreign despots, and that their correspondence bad been com municated to those Powers, and that imprisonments, banishments, and deaths on the scaffold, were the conse quences of those communicotions. He stated also that the correspondence of the Foreign Ambassadors was subjected to the inspection of her Majesty's Ministers. Ilis(Mr. Duncombe's) letters also—the letters of a Mem ber of that House—his correspondence had been vio lated—his letters had been detained and opened. That was the bill of indictment he was called on to prove before the Committee. How were these charges met ? How did they find them explained in the report of the Secret Committee ? Let Hon. Members read it, and they would find that not one of his charges had been contra dicted. It seemed as if the Right Hon. Baronet had given them their instructions in these words, " Explain nothing, mystify every thing."—(Laughter.) They had not met one of his allegations ; but if their instructions were merely considered, they had well done their duty. —(Continued laughter.) The Committee was, in the first place, to inquire into the state of the law, and also to inquire into the mode in which it had been executed before that time; and as if that were not suffi ciently expressive, they were to inquire into the cir cumstances under which any warrant was issued, so that they might infer from those instructions at least that the truth was required to come out. But how did the Committee begin their work ? They assumed that the law of 1844 was analogous to that of 1711, when the Act of Queen Acne was first passed, but they ought to recollect that the circumstances which that law was in tended to meet were somewhat peculiar. The law of 1844 having been assumed to be that of Queen Anne's, the Committee proposed to give the history of the mat ter, but not one word more did they give of the state of the law. They thought they were obeying their instructions by going back to the time of Edward the Second, and their report was full of very valuable anti quarian research, for at least two-thirds of it was filled with antiquarian knowledge. They cave the number of warrants issued by the Duke of Newcastle, by Lord Car marthen, and by others, but what the House wanted was a copy of the warrants issued by Sir James Graham —:Laughter.) Not one of the warrants to the manufacturing districts were given,—not one war rant of the present century had they condercet ded to give the House. They went on telling them that the trial of various individuals proved that the practice had existed in former times, because letters written to At terbury the Bishop of Rochester, and to other persons, were produced upon their trials. But they had not stated that those letters had been detained by virtue of a Secretary of State's warrant—they only stated the fact that on the trials of the Bishop of Rochester, and of others, those letters were produced. lie found that on the trial of Bishop Atterbury, an objection was t :ken, and the counsel in the case, in examining a wit ness, asked if the letters were detained under a warrant from the Secretary of State. The question was not allowed to he answered by the bench. If any of these cases proved that a warrant from the Secretary of State had been issued at all, lie thought it might equally be inferred that some one of the clerks had done it on his own responsibility, or it might be that a regular search warrant had been granted for the search of papers. If they issued a warrant to search for papers, all indivi duals knew what they wanted, and knew also that they were entitled to issue such. But to reseal letters—to commit a forgery, fort it was nothing less, and to send those letters to their original addresses, oh it was a most iniquitous and most unworthy system—too unworthy for any Minister of any country.—(Cheers.) The Committee said in their report, in reference to what had been done in this way in former times, that this power was not permitted to be used in the Post office without the express authority of Government; but that authority having been given in a certain portion of the year 1742, " certain letters were then somewhat rudely pried into." Now, he (Mr. Duncombe) would not say whether the Committee of 1742 were properly doing their duty or not, by those letters that had been " somewhat rudely pried into;" but this he would say. that this was a compliment which the report now before him had taken care not to pay those whose letters of late had been " somewhat rudely pried into."—(Cheers and laughter.) Neither would he say that it was the busi ness of the Committee to do so; hut, as they had not somewhat rudely pried into " the manner in which this power of opening letters had been exercised by the Right lion. Gentleman opposite, he would do it.—(Cheers and laughter). By referring to the Appendix of the Commit tee's report, the House would find that this extraordi nary rudeness had been taken by that Committee. namely, that they did examine into the extent to which this opening of letters had been carried on, and that was the whole of the "extreme rudeness" which they had to communicate to the public.—(Laughter.) Now, if this wonderful Committee were to conceive it part of their business to tell the House what the Government of two or three hundred years ago thought proper to do, or what had happened in reference to the opening of letters at that distant period of time, surely any person, upon reading that report, would exclaim, " God bless me, how very important and interesting must not this report be, when it comes somewhat nearer to 'our own time."—(Cheers and laughter.) Now, although he was willing to give the Committee every credit for the deep research they displayed, yet he could not help say ing that the result of that research afforded no evidence as to the facts he wanted to come at ; but, on the con trary, upon this point he should say the Committee's re search had all evaporated, and they appeared to have be come most unaccountably and unintelligibly reserved.— (Renewed cheers and laughter.) Nay, more, he thought that before he sat down he could satisfy the House that the Committee had not obej ed the resolutions of the House upon the subject.—(Hear.) The Committee, in their report, stated that strict adherence a as paid to the conditions of the warrant, and yet, while they said in that part of it the law had been obeyed, it, in fact, had not been obeyed ; and this was one of his (Mr. Dun come's) specific complaints against the pretest Govern talent, and one on which the public had a right to be satisfied.--(Hear, hear.) And why had not th:s satisfaction been afforded by the report ? The answer was plain, it was this—that if it were to be given, it would have compel:cd the Com mittee to have entered the Secret Chamher—(Hear, hear)—and if they did that, they should hive betrayed all the secrets of that Chamber. And here let him say, in reference to this Secret Chamber, he had seen by the papers of the day that that office had been abolished. Here the Hon. Member read a paragraph frem some paper to the above effect, and then continued. Well, he had supposed that this secret offiee had been closed, oi rather. let him say, as the lawyers did, that the offs , , had not been closed, they had only " changed the veai,e" —(Laughter)—and he would ask what, signified it to the public in what place that secret partment was held, so long as the practice continued ?—(Hear, hear.) It mat tered not whether it was held in the Home-office or in S-. Martin's-le-Grand, so long as it was held anywhere; and held lie believed it would be, because it was held by authority of an Act of Parliament, and nothing but an Act of Parliament could deprive the Government of that power.—(Hear, hear.) In respect to the Committee, he should say, his opinion was, that they had not fulfilled the intention of that House, either as to the state of the law upon this subject, or as to the number of letters that had been opened during the period mentioned. And he would further say that the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had exceeded his powers, had made the most unscrupulous use of his power, and had not stated the number of letters that had been opened.— (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Here the Hon. Member again referred to the report, and having read a pas , age, then went on to say that it appeared by it that 372 warrants, authorising the opening of letters, had been issued during the last century ; of these, 300 were issued for criminal purposes—that was to say, warrants authorising the opening of letters by reading the cont. nts of which, certain projected murders, robberies, forgeries, persons engaged in plans for defrauding the revenue, &c., Sec., were to be detected. But let the House bear in mind that there was a great and marked differ ence between warrants issued for the detection of cri minal offenders and those of a political character. The " criminal warrants," if he might so call them, affected an individual, and were directed against an individual only. Letters against which they were directed were opened, with a view to ascertain the name and address of an in dividual, while the political warrants were of a very dif ferent character. Now, by the report of the Committee it appeared that from the year 1841 to the end of the year 1844, being three years that the Hon. Baronot was -J them in office, the number of those warrants issued nti Ist exceeded all precedent of former Governments. ode, time, up to the year 1844, when this report vvit s io sr the present Government had issued as many as id' rants in three years.—(Hear, hear.) Now , ° 2OlO l ing over the whole of the report, he could not "nrial anything at all Eke the number of 44 such warrao_' t a been issued in any three years, notwithstanle,s great research and labour displayed by the Cont o3 tt al (Cheers an laughter.) It appeared by the seP"risbo Lord Sidmouth, in the rear 1812.—rather a re lp° , r etd period—issued -welva warrants, and that wa s eo°-! an extremely large number ; yet the Bon. 13aroneriitst,4 (Home Secretary), in more recent and less ren3l4 times, exceeded Lord Sidmouth by five. -- ( 11 4 1 laughter.) Again, he would say that the . 1 " al roast had made a most unscrupulous use of this Pclol and that was most apparent in the use lie had 1 .1 that poker against the two foreigners, M. Mtlazlriletr Capt. Stoltmxn.—(Loud cries of " Hear, bean"), iff lieved the country had not on record any in stall- 13d miler conduct to such an extent.—(Hear. hear.) rit e Hon. Baronet had said that her Majesty's G°veflorrig had so used this power at the instig at i o n of a 5 ttl: power, hem whom they had had communication ti lt led to such a proceeding. Now, he would call ul r ' o ° 4 0 6 House to mark the error of the report in this 401 The warrant was issued on the 34 of Match, a." ) „, 3 1 . cancelled on the 13th of June, an d thereflar Mazzini had no cause of complaint. But he (Idnleser: combs welted contend for it that M. Mazz in ",l were opened on the 14th of June, the very dt'Y b 0 tar'' (Mr. Duncombe) presented his pe.ition. — ( Hea ari Therefore it would appear that letters had been 101,1 at times when there was no authority to t , 0 1, 0 4 11 ", was his firm belief that the warrant had been au 0 5P hs l far the occasion-- (Hear, h ar)—and that d : 1 1, - system on which this practice was fo 8n „ - been conducted, to say the least of '" O f P.,' most loose manner. But now mark the err °r ,, o o l t report. The House of Lords, in their report, t uf t sl"li subject say, that " Letters had heen opened Onttalr four months." Now, be (Mr. Duncembe) ° ) 15. 15 1 , that the warrant was in force from Christm as a , June' 1844 ; and he would ask, was a na, t ; n it DO v' ,.l consideted nothirg in a period during "' n ,sseroe letters were to be opened ?—(llcar, hear.) he would say, that the Governmant were in l' l° OP; cament— that letters had been opened from thn b e ic h tb previous and subsequent to the times at :Lod tif report states that the warrant had been 1 " r itor,, cancelled, and, therefore, there was a gross err° site 'e report —Meer, hear.) did not mean totted any intentional mistake to them, for lie 1.w,1,it.c:61, tit had been imposed on. This, also, he ben e ta ' t oo, those letters to which he had been calling at"' rOv e il, been opened at the instigation of a Foreign or t but the reason assigned by that Power for °P i e etO s! Mazzini's letters was that he had been secretlf t wa t ; ing an insurrection against that Power, an cl it ylo,r o e British Government,therefore, had their aulb °l e rsP,s proceeding from "High Sources." Now s wh a s t ,, - se id "high sources?" They were not stated in t`" ee pr i s the report did not state that M. Mazzini ava 9 ht s of those charges, or obnoxious to them; s e irt e ra l Committee had heard M. Mazzini himself, t"0001110 would then have had to give a very different r o te the transaction.—(Hear, hear.) But Ima i r ' sti contradiction in the report. It not only ut d a 10/ the "high sources," but it distinctly s at f o e ( "AO letters were opened, " nett at th e sagges'ihster t dt foreign Power.—(Hear, hear.) But, notra bad "? this, it appeared that " such information a° e 00 0 1 ) 1 elicited from those so-opened letters had bea n Is t oi cated to those foreign Powers."—(Hear, be ° %slte'd House of Lords, the Marquis of Normail b Ys tbe, Y li o Duke of Wellington was this the fact ? a n- e ster,/ 'oa t Duke said he knew nothing about it—(L ay ' cls'. ° P the Earl of Aberdeen, in reply to the ea ß ' e otnel . said he could assure the Noble Marquis tha t Pe rO,O the sort bad been communicated to any f°, re :t e tt' q 'bje 6 —(Hear.) Well, then, to what other con°,; ° ;he d t at liberty to arrive upon this part o '," so or ts i l than this, that there was gross falseho oo between this House and the other House, b s u o sos„ i l V was not for him to say —(Hear)--but this P- t be f o / that some explanation was due not only o'4 i ° public, but to all foreign Powers and foreignsity,"oo (Cheers.) Well, then, the report went 00 t t ° O? , the course adopted by the Government "netl" rj i g t ites os to done than to frustrate the attempt to ere ate s ti e rr °ll , o L / tion." But he would ask, was that the P i r o .riehltei d adopt ? Was that a course worthy of r'nboritir (Hear, hear.) Was that the course for th e tt ao9 l vernment to adopt to frustrate an, h il i ,se 111 2,4 which was involved the lives, perhaps, or !"-popybtf nate individuals?—(Hear, hear.) , lf he (AL r ' w eity, had appeared before the Committee, b e s oo n ' shown that 1 3 /I.lllazzini had got a letter from s ° we!" and misguided men, to the effect that they Need make a descent upon some of the Papal stw co ulel4 4 l° States ; that M. Mazzini had done all b e t , ni e ,prr suede them from so rash an act ; that they A 4ll tO ' his advice, but it was then too late t o fri c , r ',ye s Government sent their agents to t. ,°r a O A ° O l6 courage on those unfortunate men, 51i tpL i _iir delusion induced them to retire from Corfu ' ll O ,O where they had ordered their ships. Th is , . at the instigation of the British Got/o'l' o° h " ivi lier unfortunate men, thus betrayed, ware tried I,sec u st le o f commission, and very shortly after ive re o el ° s ot s (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member then ,, r ' t ao e l ', from two of those who had been executer tite'', t!; Admiral Bandieri—in which they express° tit ail i fsl' l viction of the wrong course they had been r eis i nol it ' Glared themselves satisfied t o expiate tb eir e" l / 4 ttl e their blood, and died cryi ng ou t Viva Italisboseol,ol.' Such was the way in which the British 0 1 0'; took mea-ures for frustrating the totem' , " °;) O l t ( to disturb the peace of our allies.—(C hne er)ou ' '' ' ot (said the Hon. Gentleman with much vehern en oo l° , not say to those individuals openly a nd nAg he ir ;,eb r , that their proceedings were known, that sl le et tS i would be frustrated, that they could 13 , .!, did plot on British ground ?—(Cheers.) Vv il Y ß ad ss l nst e i tell them that they were rushing into l'n' n ' ) I f f e l must desist from their course? —'Cheer,,s'osavd,ol could have done—(Hear)—and the; weld' 00 bk. to you.—(Hear.) No ; but instead of that i l t aelfaiol b t them over to the foreign Governmen t, an re see - f is as much on the heads of her Majesty's t oo ls° . 3 , 11 3 ters—(Cheers)—aye, more so than on the ß i se r .'osl individuals who were ordered to pull the h t ic h is I t to t t if the monument, which I hope to see, and vfr ittc4 o be ever erected to the memory of those tne,r, inscribed on their tombstone that they o ' i , r ia' h i o r e dei their country and liberty, through the trey e e no o Government; and the inscription, I beb e i' et asn) true."—(Great cheering.) The Hon. Gen t r, aesr; t alvel to say that that was not the only case.--(H ea disel be tbs tain Stoltman, an officer in the Polish artiq' t j t saf he li e g . 1 4 M. Mazzi o l, that his letters had been o P ene e sl lo ,.. - 10 1 e . ser for inquiry and redress. But he was o ", t „to tinol' l d er, Committee. No information had been giv e- the C°P - istv)o to the warrants in his case ; but a lthough, tha ft ei dt a° 0 were not so fatal, in reference 1° / 0 1 tion given to the foreign elnb ssY ' the I) rtstb P been in the case of M. Mazziut, Ye t The 'f i s h , rot' were most disgraceful to the Government. on `;t11 8 ,0' issued on the 17th of April, and was witlidnate oisfroriy June. Now he did not complain as tootf sir t io l rants. But all he had to say was, this g t a s .11 ,4 fol dente with Mr. Galiski in Paris was open ed tie 10;01 I correspondence of Mr. Wursell. No on e _ e t ition eV, gentleman's name until he presented his r.' t ,, of inquiry, that he might have the opportunity 0 stain cast upon his character by an insinuatittonto seeoe report of the Committee. Mr. Gahsk i d o, _,ber ' residing in Paris at the time r eferre v . , it another gentleman who was not nam ed. and s .`:4 °P A ( Galiski to be held up to reproach!tto s t !..7.,0 : 0 0 gentleman not named? but the Como' h ,a fuv, - s tY was alleged against those two men that they vise o 4 , /, sign to assassinate a foreign Sovereign, 7 0 7 00e itte e be al; JO her Majesty. Now, why 'did not the C_ isit to t t e Sovereign. There were two here on a , sa eorll' o .is s t th the Emperor of Russia and the King design to 0 ,4 O f/ JO they not say which of them it was e oi cg t u_ (" Hear," and a laugh.) The Committee allegations against those gentlemen was t u iete the g ee ( t o " opening of their letters, at the ' arn es e i ate th°se Ale °l :. / C °1 1; thought that there was nothing to er , —,,i t n e Hon. • if te e ," ) whom they had reluctantly named.—( '' e ff e ct.) old read at length the extract to the above, __ e on , er mittee were reluctant to name those gen ti t e . w .., d, o t t sii ! reg. , the foul imputation of murder, why did u ile,Y . , At of Nobody asked them.—( Hear and a la gl: cr ito ss 0 1;A: when they did impute to those gentlemen "I.‘„rtun"24 the °Pr e triu* ei they ought to have given them a 5 a 0 oe r, eating their character. Mr. Wursall hon . o r . , Polish family, and a man of unblem _T ssio tio i n eet es' e l tV ei incapable of thinking of the crime of 5 ' athose ghee„tobli'bootbv As the opportunity was not given to t aic rsore o fend themselves before the Committee t _ so be . 0p 0,,, rl charge, they ought to be allowed to M . l O, caift:c! be tt tb e ~ Committee, and that was what he n ° it se enlaos,.i, House to grant. In such a Comnai r t t r a g i e rty ts ue4,, a l:;00 pr that what lie had stated was ee „, Bus , s ~ ,e were, at the time of the Emperor 'Je st " to ts csed o ,' the Queen, Russian spies here. Those ',, r o A Sr : 0 of that visit which the Emperor made , , e ,. afaje s liese ee st, o , enee to himself, as they were told o n s " v et. tbe e e g el/ (A laugh)—to ingratiate thems to their b °°- the' e ta 's bassy, and to obtain leave to returnea, _e, He r g o jes I t/ For this purpose they invented the .0 1 1 ' 1. .. ' H e r . Ai st otrw et , men, and carried it to the A m ba... 1 but tri tb les ie ' 4 b laiP ; t vln g m t e o n teraiTidn criminate e io t n h e t accusation.haeccused e.te ma anodt lbezw o Kitt g -nr n ative .s- (1 " the ith they wanted, and returned to their it of kere t ar ivie an amnesty immediately after th ere lef wn " whilst the injured gentlemen I t be thr n 03 0 5 ' thr, ae. o foul stain of murderers Woe' eot Con_ ths t a Committee of the British kio,u s eet ber... pet i t hear.) He (Mr. Duncombe) (Da they were d ich l a sfy ed I '9 vernment were aware of what toffsth n ho t the ee Poles imparted parte theird owntite cco„ r u r n e t s t p x on s, d e_ e d n ot h pee :e ' og h t e cel l.o , l l , so tr i the Government was requested 10 contained re ° f i° f er sometimes have to say that tuey went ova ko e9 0 of family concern. Was the Givteprpneeeirseonnt itnichpaatoulasuobjefc_r°ttbe:o:; —( Hear, hear.) There were . in Poland. One to prohibit a getter °" Elearioreb" responding with an exile, 110 and o,igg•-•; - v i t h soy,, of t . c ie o the penalty of imprisonmentfrealvonnad:nretehedootobtelr":o;eoPl,ooooi England,An o he r decree under Pe n n s ki ;as ett inW ri r t i broug h decrees, the Countess S°v • i h her 1000- co unten isl o „ e e' of having corresponded with hear.) The exile , 0 1 ,7 0p rie,',/ tfhoerbsaadtte,eall coit of foreign ladies .--( nesr 'riting t' / ,„ a „ Il b nd, ,* l° , e ' esa tic r P eie, l e a V n a d l di for received fifty comes P e ann severedore was also imprisoned for ~th helr;eauniistaeibuca,obillara-tiusor,.:ll‘i.ltreo• ws_ies__ltadeser _ a t hat ~ s t e Ail these had been d one un d Inc c ries o ' o ' cosn ufi skil,o o :l had c a:7 e d rn _ _ nt, feet o f ra ker 0 the other, d ‘ a Y f i es r, 1 1,01 0 ' 0 0 0 i Majesty.—(Loud i r jes ty whose . the Go r," e _ t t h e e .4 1 !at were notes ware tn a „act! 0 4 b r %leg ,) was satisi v ed sLito t u h thd at correspondence; • ife cortespo , he ho t ~d,r to the Emperor that a . _ ninent, a ria bear y-i fei r, o, ; ( : : :: e i was to subject her to imp the n from her fo vent 01" cl▪ or6is 15 k,---s tlea .'cus h h co e r r p: h ra Li l d p re u n ni %, sh . t then, to b e i'r erl athe r , for d o Ought not this Governmen c , e fore ign, saos se betrayed any corresponlen( to Herr, hear.) ,poti dee r . 4 f ae r ; r io o ▪ u t between their subjects . . would be take ambassadors. The House 1. :„ 0 t be, st / A which he had made was that Of ld i c :rg i t in ee , f i l ftb s : e f ° -! `j o iC ° lf receiving an ambassador, .a .. 1 _ ,d 0 ,7 3 7What 1 0`.....sa lt i eor ° , j 0 ,56F smile of geodanatered euriu!;/__IA • 01 as st ye) to. • k the poCO P. from your coati, the letters .r. Fah( lad read anwh e n he 02 E Renewed laughte r.) _/ ~"<F: ---•'"''.--