The Sun. — London, England, 1836-03-09 00:00:00

04A - -'pectioe circumstances will require a separate consideration." --(Loud cheers from the Opposition benches.) Was this an authority ,..e in favour of similar legislation for the two countries. the Hear, hear.) In the measure introduced with regard to on trish Church was the principle of appropriation. Those his pr i n ,! (Sir J. Graham's) side of the House objected to that • °Pie. Now, were those who argued for similar legisla tion for . the . two countries, prepared to extend the appropria- Ze principle to England ?—( Hear, lean ) How would they de e t such a proposition, if it were made? How could they shatY. principle upon which they were now proceeding? twas good for England was good for Ireland, it must nee good follow that what was good for Ireland must be good ‘ 1 ? England. There was a point adverted to last night by 1,• . to.c,ltightßaronet, the Member for Launceston, at ! n showed still more strongly than perhaps any other the tk ‘_te of society in Ireland. He meant the letter written by . 1 ( 7 Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Tipperary, !. a clergyman who demanded his tithes. That letter did the highest honour to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. It was f c'ne p written i n t h e ki ndest terms, and i n the b est and purest ee mtg. It sh owe d t h e terms o f goo d ne i g hb our h oo d which existed between the Hon. and Learned Gentleman and the F il le r r gYtnan to whom it was addressed ; but still, notwithstand t7teits friendly tone, it was pregnant with danger and alarm. a f . "Oh. and Learned Gentleman in substance said " I am do r e le ,nd, I am a neighbour, I admit that your claim is legally out, as a friend, I appeal to you whether, under the cir etlTstances i n wh i ch I am placed, I can pay t h e d eman d you make without the certain loss of my seat?"—( Loud cheers. ) country there be a more convincing proof of the state of the - ii iin trY than this ?—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned iedeniber for Dublin had also, by his open and manful acknow ti great of the power which he possessed, given an addi t,Thal proof of the state of the country. He fairly admitted I P he possessed a great--a dangerous--power ; and that very "u'llission of the Hon. and Learned Member proved the dis teased state of society in Ireland. He did not mean any offence the Rom an C at h o li c M em b ers o f t h a t H ouse , or t o an y per so tn 8 of th e R oman C at h o li c persuas i on , i n th e f ew observa ills which he was about to make upon priestly influence. e ore the Emancipation Bill passed there was much anxiety ascertain the extent of that influence, and in 1825 the Honourablel._ and Learned Member for Dublin was examined refore a Committee of the House on the subject.—( Hear, th e Roman Being questioned as . to what the influence of itoman Catholic Clergy was likely to be in the event of - 6 e Emancipation Bill passing, the Hon. and Learned .erltleman replied that he was convinced their influence a . • 1 d be totally at an end, and that there would follow the result of that measure an absence of the blind sub servience now paid to them. Being asked whether he thought that th ere was any other cause which would still survive to preserve their influence at elections, the Hon. and Learned dGentleman replied that there could be none. The Hon. and ined M em b er for Tipperary, who had been also examined to Tre the same Committee, in reply to certain questions put said that the priests possessed influence at elections h Y because of the withholding of Catholic Emancipation. • other questions, such as reform of Parliament, were brought ?rWard, the priests would have no influence but on the sub leet Of Catholic Emancipation that Hon. and ' Learned Gentle -241 said, in reason, in justice, and in sound sense, the priests vuthasessed and e4ercised an influence.—(Cheers.) These were ea Tipperary of the Hon. and Learned Members for Dublin a nd linperary before the passing of the Catholic Relief Bill.— R , % ,, (41 d cheers.) C on t ras t th o se opinions with the evidence en in 1832, after the passing of the Emancipation Bill by anper, of the county of Meath, in the Committee over den Sir Henry Parnell presided. Mr. Napper in his evi artee said that the conduct of the Roman Catholic priests ki t tee the passing of the Reform Bill tended to promote excite 4(IPS arid agit a ti on . The excitement which existed when he e• first Nap Per) came to the country had been greatly in-p ea, and had assumed a higher degree of warmth since the h ii s a ing Of the Emancipation Bill. He ( Sir J. Graham) did not to advert to th wehich habeen de from e ak aes B , y Roman e Catholic sermons priests, but there was livere onenot to r,_overlooked. It was one elicited in the evidence before the ?!,Mmittee in 1832. It was an address delivered by a Roman elLtholie priest to a portion of the British army, in the presence r e : r itish officer, and he (Sir J. Graham) quoted it the more af t tilY because on the occasion the priest being - confronted * hie the Officer only took exception to the word " boys," h was the only one he denied having used. The evidence 1 11 foll ows .—[Th e Ri g h t H on . G e ntleman then read the t iO'le l cc] He would now refer to the more important qu.es -11, Which was the vital question in this case. This question kr , 44 l ,Prupounded by the Noble Lord the Secretary at War last who said " You have created this state of things by the ..• "' e ssions which you have made—are you prepared to undo i ttS e concessions now ?"—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial s s elic hs.) This was a fair question to put, and he would an toier it frankl He would say in reply that the days of Y. otireles had passed away, the sun did not go back on the dial, (II Popular concessions once made could not be retracted. — t at r, hear.) He was the last person who would advise or he lellance such an attempt. It was not with him a ques. t p ,l o l . inclination—(Loud cries of " Hear," from the Minis- Benches)—it was not a question of inclination, for the toyleitY of the case was such that he could give but answer to the Noble Lord—that he was not prepared i f retract what had been already conceded.—( Hear, hear.) e na t e, Cheers by which he was just now saluted were in jthLsu to imply that he wished to recal the Catholic cl es T u eination Act, he would at once say that he had no such p ro r ef he rejoiced to see the Roman Catholic population re cettlted in that House by those in whom they thought fit to ex e a r ",e• But there was a wide difference between the free eh a i t ' lo of the Parliamentary franchise without limitation of Al e i h ee i is to C a th o li c or P ro t es t an t, and the principles of inu tile' government sought to be established by this Bill. But teem not all. The Noble Lord said, " If you cannot go tot will you do? You cannot stand still—you must t esa ( i e ' ward ; that is, you must make further and further con dea,„lrlt.s." But was there no other danger in this ? Let him ties re to th e H ouse one o f th e ca lamities which he was sa -134' W ould be the first and imniediate effect of passing this Zel) t The Hon. and Learned Member opposite (Mr. O'Con hlte „ mat i told the people of Dublin that when this Bill passed self l aw, they should have a roaring mayoralty, for he him __.(4,oeld condescend to be the first magistrate of that city. sati s fi es '' , hear, hear.) This was no vain threat. He was bs e ti that it was really true. Let the House imagine the lip a F ee tillo• of the Council in the Council Chamber of Dub tbeter this Bill had been passed. There would be the mace srva 2 ',„: 4l le ; there would be the Hon. and Learned Member Pr e ".`" 111 his own robes and chain of office, as the aj ty sl t dent of the Assembly • there would be the mock solem- Peti t i debate ; the subject of discussion would probably be a the i . °l !. for the abolition of tithes—the subject of invective 'ellee rs es i st anee of the House of Lords—( Cheers and counter- Ari nei ,--the resistance of the House of Lords to the grand reeni a P r le of the appropriation of ecclesiastical property to the Purposes, to which, as appeared by the evidence of p,„,"• and Learned Member for Tipperary, the Whigs as th e CY were pledged now and for ever ; and this would be difk o r i s t snecimen of the Noble Lord's normal schools for the Thi s , 1, 11 of sound political opinions.—(Great cheering.) NI re a l was persuaded, would be the first step towards 4% 41 lzation of the Hon. and Learned Member's darling s s?ntt a "t o Which, let the House do what it would, he would 'N et tle to c li ng —a native Parliament assembled in C ollege- Of 'without the nuisance, as he pronounced it to be, there sec on d hereditary Chamb er. —(Loud cheers.) Call son ati what they pleased—call them normal schools for sef e ,„ Politi ca l opinion —he (Sir J. Graham) on his con— Xte rro 'e they believed would be nothing more nor less than be 111 ,I, ols „ th e 2 , for treason and rebellion, and that they would Ced e tk , ast fatal symptom w hi c h wou ld i mme di ate l y pre the t wo breach so muc h d es i re d i n t h e l eg i s l at i ve U n i on o f the„ had e ountries.—(T remen d ous chee r in g .) B e i t so . R eason th e ' io tried, and reas on f a ili n g, there w a s on ly one resor t to Per ar s :the ultim o ratio of force. The Hon. Member for Tip -011 a forme r evening, in a speech of much eloquence Poinreirt s plendour, as usual, terminated his address with the Ill easu r re mark Remember, we are seven millions, and this tunf es e roust and shall be carried." This grated, he must Wh at ik extremely harshly upon his ear. It sounded some it 0,,1 1 _," a threat. It was a mode of argument, if argument ea% c s i o '" he called, which ought not to be introduced in the dis thr dpree ate•ns of that House, and which they could not sufficiently i t a mushy a __ , ear.) He should be . sorry to meet that b i'Ytning that could be construed into a retort. But , e 'gla nd an., rememberedScotland that there were Protestants not only in rot, st _ u Scotland, but also in Ireland, and that these kid • ants had but v , le calor ery recently strengthened their position, dime" t o tl la9ce with the advice of that House, and in obe krnidies, . 5 0 will of his Majesty, had laid aside all secret as tlew stood and empty pageants which attended them, and tir K i tria,„%unned together in one body, determined firmly estatdi a l; l rn u e 7, and in the face of day, to defend the Protestant nseier,tio ,t as fixed by law in this country, and which in his tni , on us opinion, had a far higher sanction than any which Arid" a t a l o C u o r tl d confer upon it.—( Cheers.) It was once our f • utestanti glory that we were the defence and support o t ri th n , o , sal throughout Europe, and should it be said that i re latter e e ex taded, d a a n y d s, when ourwas consolidated, our em power ta t :" Could not ourti influence commanding—that we, 1 dolletliYl smurrender our el'"rovtaensctlaunist prieetse, and th e fury vanquish, brethren e S n p r overcome, would and aban of the demaftogue the vengeance of the ca tin the madness of the ;eople , ?—( Loud and 1 . 0n5- siobi ued cheering.) 0.. , .ev courseNo ; let them take the bolder and the , io"°.lestiC ts in Let_ them . secure to all classes of his 4ajcsty s the Perfect without distinction of sect or creed, equal an d full en _P_i m t e e n e t t freedom of a representative Government, ( V i al and . s?curity of life and of property under `'neers firmly administered and impartially executed.— tYra n . • But let them do anything rather than submit to thz his teal snirit of Je... eon scion , Catholic domination.—( Loud cheers ) On coveernernhe believed that this Bill as tendered by his Ma- Pri ena l surrenrit' was neither more nor less than an uncon en.d was whilst the proposal of his Right Hon. o.. ll lcit, s. compromise, founded on just and equal j e h.sit atincr the-e grounds he would give his cordial and " er s. b 1 - I pport to this resolution.—( Loud and protracted Af tel f., sha me" la Pse of two or three minutes, in consequence of the S i r, \ raker, th e ' l3 Yeu have E rore to address the House. ' I am glad, lier la ze er.iabled me to recover for a few seconds from ..4daot has .religious eloquence with which the Right Hon. h ear, 1...1111.5t thought property overwhelm us.__( Laughter, tree_Right 1 10 I shall not, on the present occasion, follow deal, per • ape,utlaronet through the matter of his sp eec h ; a t 0 I car °PPertl shall h a v e occasion to make use o f at thi s and, I "V. If the H o u se s h a ll re f use to d o j ust i ce argun'ghtfure_an assure the Ri g ht H on . B aronet , t h at he has th at ttlents foretiished me with al additional number of powerful iZ ,, !epeal of the Union.—( Cheers.) As to S ere: art of the it Hon. Baronet's speech, in which he en u P ( Ill th e I " cr este task of read ing t h e ev id ence o f t h ose two most Meta). I and impartial w i tnesses , M r. C arroll and Mr. shall pay very little attention to that at present. Bat I must take occasion to call the attention of the House and of the Right Hon. Baronet particularly to a mistake which he has fallen into as to my personal friend Mr. Burke. Mr. Burke, he says, was confronted with Mr. Matson._:.. (Cries of " No, no.") I admit that that. is not the fact; they were not so confronted; what I say is, that the Hon. Baronet stated that they had been so confronted.—( Cries of " He did, he did !") There is one word attributed to Mr. Burke which I am quite sure no Catholic clergyman ever used, namely, the word "heretic ;"—a word which I defy Mr. Matson, or any one else, to have heard coming out of the mouth of a Catholic. clergyman,—( Hear, hear.) Before I enter upon the discus sion of the important question which is this night to be decided by us, the House will perhaps allow me to make a few obser vations in reference to what fell from the Hon. and Learned Member for Bandon arid from the Hon. and Gallant Officer (Sir Henry Hardinge) last night. The Learned Sergeant the Member for Bandon commenced his speech by reading some of the clauses of this Bill, and comparing them with the enactments of the English Corporation Act. Now that being a matter which we can better discuss when we get into Com mittee on the Bill, I shall not proceed to answer the Learned Sergeant's objections upon these pOints at present. —( Hear, hear.) Having gone through these objections, the Learned Sergeant then proceeded to attack the character of the clergyman who he alleged had said that he would refuse to prepare for death any man who voted for the Knight of Kerry. This was given on the evidence of a gentleman who heard it from some one, who is not himself named, and I ask, is this evidence on which to convict a gentleman and a clergy man of such an unchristian declaration ?—( Hear, hear.) Be sides Mr. O'Sullivan wrote letters both to the papers in Ire land and to the Morning Chronicle, in which he utterly denies having used the words attributed to him. The statement was made in the first instance without the name of the party impli cated being mentioned ; Mr. Croley conceiving himself to be referred to in it, first came forward and denied that be had said what was stated, and then he was told that he was not the per son alluded to ; and after that Mr. O'Sullivan came forward and denied the charge also.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Then the Learned Sergeant referred to the address said to have been de livered by the Rev. Mr. Keogh to his congregation at Leigh lin-bridge ; but in like manner, the Learned Sergeant never added, that that Rev. Gentleman had complained bitterly of having such unchristian sentiments attributed to him, and had gone down to the newspaper office for the purpose of publish ing a denial of having used that language—a denial to which no answer was published.--( Hear, hear.) Under these cir cumstances, and with those omissions, I submit that the Learned Sergeant ought not to have mentioned those two cases at all. —(Hear, hear.) With respect to the course taken by the Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite (Sir H. Hardinge), I must say I think he acted rather unfairly in quoting the evidence of Mr. Carter Hall, who was examined on the last day of the Committee's sitting, and 14 hen Mr. Keogh was not in town to hear and meet what he said. An HON. MEMBER on the Ministerial benches, either Ser geant Jackson or Sir Henry Hardinge, we believe Mr. Keogh was in town at the time.—( Another voice on the opposite side —" He was, he was, and in the next room.") Mr. O'CONNELL—WeII, whether he was there or not has very little to do with it. The fact is, Mr. Keogh denied the charge most positively in The Carlow Sentinel, and that denial was held back. Besides, there are some remarkable passages in Hall's cross-examination which it would have been well to have mentioned also. Hall was asked in what dress the clergyman was who spoke what he alleged ? He replied— " I hardly know how to describe the dress of a Roman Ca tholic priest; he had on a surplice, and over that a large cross." Now there is nobody, who knows anything about the dress of a Catholic priest but will see how inaccurate this is. —(Hear, hear.) He was then asked further on the same point, and he replied, " We took off the large cross that he had on his back, but underneath that he wore a surplice over a coarse black gown." Now after this is there any one who ever saw a Catholic priest who will not at once see how im possible it is Mr. Hall can have been where he describes. But after all, in any case, Mr. Keogh denied the whole statement, and that should have been enough. The next thing the Gallant Officer proceeded to do was to accuse me of raising an anti-Protestant spirit in Ireland ; and how did he prove that ? He referred to a letter of Lord Kenmare's, in which his Lordship expressed his dissent from my politics; so, forsooth, because I happen to differ in opinions with a Ca tholic, that is in itself sufficient argument to show that I am opposed to Protestantism.—(Hear, hear.) Then, in addition to this, the Learned Member for Banden read some garbled passages from some electioneering placards, which I am ac cused of having circulated. In the case of Limerick, lam accused of having published an address in favour of two gen lemen, one a Protestant and the other a Catholic—( Hear, hear, hear),—nnd with having declared that whoever would vote against them was an enemy to his country. I will just trouble the House with a few words from an election address which I hold in my hand, which will show that in Carlow at least lam not to be held responsible for all placards of the kind. This placard runs thus:—" Mr. O'Connell has no ob jection to Bruen. He says he is a good fellow and a good landlord.—( Laughter, and hear, hear.) He has no notion of supporting Vigors—( Renewed laughter) ;—so hurrah for Henry Bruen, Daniel O'Connell, and freedom of election." —(Loud laughter.) Another assertion of the Honourable and Gallant Member, to which I must allude, is one which he said he made upon the authority of Lord Hatherton ; namely, that the clause disfranchisiug the forty shilling free holders was written in my own handwriting. Now I declare that Lord Hatherton said no such thing.—( Hear, hear, hear.) What then was my conduct at the time of passing the Emancipation Act ? Why I it was who, with other gentle men of the same views, prepared and signed a petition, pray ing the House not to pass the Bill at all if it were to be given upon the terms of destroying the forty-shilling freeholders.— (Hear, hear.) It was at a subsequent period to this, that when the clause relating to the forty-shilling freeholders was submitted to me, I recommended an alteration by which the franchise should be taken away in cases where it was assigned for life only, and not where it was in fee or perpetual inheri tance.—( Hear, hear.) I wish now to nail the attention of the House to the real state of the question before it, what the principle involved in it is, and what the result of it may pro bably be. Now this is a question which I will reply to nega tively. The question then is not whether we shall put an end to the Irish Corporations ; that is a point upon which every one is agreed, every body has given them up entirely ; and declared them to be corrupt and profligate to the last degree, influencing and at the same time polluting the sources of public justice.—( Hear, hear.) Of all the Members who have ad dressed the House upon the subject, they are all so honourable, there is not one to defend these Corporations, not one to stand up for them I There is the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, and the Noble Lord for South Lancashire, two Noble Lords North and South ; then there is the Hon. and Gallant Officer, and the Hon. and Learned Sergeant the Member fur Bandon, and the Hon. and Learned Recorder —whose face is just brightened up by a smile, but who wore a countenance not two minutes ago very fit for an undertaker— (Laugliter)—even the Hon. and Learned Recorder had not a word to say for the poor corporators.—( Hear, hear.) They all agreed to throw them quietly overboard. Amongst so many speeches one hardly knows how to select one above an other ; but upon the whole I think I must give the preference to the speech of the Noble Lora for North Lancashire ; there is a cordiality about all he said which is ,quite delightful.— ( Laughter.) But as to blaminc , the corporations, all I want to know is, when did these Noble Lords and Hon. and Learned Gentlemen first find out that these corporations were so very bad ?—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") When did this new light shine upon this galaxy of talented rulers on Irish affairs? —(Hear, bear.) All I can say is, that I think it very cruel of the Hon. Gentlemen to find it out at the precise time they do, and consent to abolish all at once these venerable corpora tions— " Abandon'd in their utmost need, By those their former bounty fed" ( Loud laughter.) Now here is, first, one specimen of the wisdom of our ancestors, the beauty of these Corporations. There was a document of 1816, " Resolved unanimously, that Robert Peel, Esq. deserves our warmest thanki, and those of all loyal subjects, for his true Protestant principles, and par ticularly fur his heroic opposition to that public, nuisance—. (Laughter)—who designated our constitutional body a beg garly Corporation ; and that the Orange Peel with the Orange Lily shall henceforward be the combined emblem of true loyalty." Oh ! little did the poor Dublin corporators think how blighting would the contact eventually prove of what they considered substances of a congenial nature.—( Continued laughter.) Sir H. H AR DING E—When was that resolution passed? Mr. O'CONNE L L—lt was in 1816, shortly before the picture was voted to the Right Hon. Baronet, which he got leave to pay for himsslf—( Shouts of laughter)—but what can you think of the situation of those persons who are subject to the government of such a body as this corrupt Corpora tion, by which justice is poisoned to the source, by which partisanship is practised by sheriffs and sub-sheriffs, by grand juries and petty juries—all admitted abuses now, but all existing when the Right Honourable Gentlemen and the Noble Lords who at various times filled the office of Secretary to Ireland were in power..—( Cheers.) I hurl these abuses which they never even attempted to remove when they were, from the nature of their office, called upon to do so—in the name of my country, I hurl these abuses at them now. How can they account for having- suffered these nuisances—not to remain undisturbed—but to become still more offensive ? What reason can they give for allowing the pure waters of justice to be made a mephitic pool, which, instead of their dif fusing gladness, and health, and vigour, spreads pestilence and death around them ?—( Cheers.) Now I am told that the state of Ireland is diseased. Need I, after the topic to which I have just adverted, and which can't be questioned—need I ask you who has made it so?—(Loud cheers.) You (pointing to the Opposition side) have committed the crime, and with singular consistency you desire to inflict on us the punishment. ___(Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord ( Stanley) is, I see dip ping pen in ink. He may dip it in gall if h e c h oo ses, but he cannot weaken the position which I have laid down.—( Hear, hear.) Now let the Ho use consider the question before it. The Noble Lord (Egerton) who made the motion, consider ing the kind of job that was put upon him, spoke with as much moderation as possible, and dipped his fingers as little as the matter which he had to deal with would permit, in the bitter sources from which the topics of his speech were supplied. But still his speech conveyed a gross insult to the people of Ireland, for which he is, perhaps, to be excused, as h e could not avoid, in the position which he took up, offering it. But let me again remind the House, that after centuries of suffering on the part of the people—after the grossest bigot r y and parti sans hip b e i n g displayed by the bodies who had the appointment of those who were constituted the arbiters o f property an d lif e , we h ave at last arrived at the unanimous conclusion that this corporate system is to be abolished ; and ha v i ng reso l ve d on t h at , th e second question is, what system is to be substituted in the place of that which must be extinguished ? 'Tis agreed on all hands that clear off must go sheriffs and sub-sheriffs, town clerks and re corders, all at " one fell swoop," must be cut off.—(Laughter ind cheers.) Who arc to be put in their places? I ask— I demand, Sir, in the name of my constituency, the substitu tion of a body identical, not in its details, but identical in its principle, with that which has been given to Scotland and England. —( Loud cheers.) .That is my demand—nothingsh or t of that will satisfy me.—( Continued cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth says my plan is to make ill the inhabitants of Ireland equal, and that is what the Catholics themselves desired. Sir, it is true that all the Ca tholics ever asked, though it was insinuated they desired more, was equality, and equality they have..—( Cheers.) How? By destroying institutions whose natural founda tions are the principles of freedom, and because Protestants can no longer monopolise privileges and rights intended for the whole of the people—by suffering no civil rights to apper tain to any portion of the inhabitants of that country deny, Sir, that that is an equality which can be beneficial to any people having the least pretence to the enjoym en t o f freedom.—( Cheers.) It is an equality which may be boasted of by the most despotic monarch and enslaved people on the earth ; but it is an equality which the people of Ireland have no desire to share in common with them—( Loud che ers .) Sir, I have always said that my principle of equality, a s ap _ plied to Ireland, was not to pull down the Protestants to my level, but to raise the Catholic to the level of the Protestant. —( Hear, hear, and cheers.) It is no base compromise in order to subvert the institutions from which Catholics are ex cluded, and to make all equally slaves.—(Loud cheers.) I will never consent to that.—( Loud cheers, with some ironical cries of " Hear, hear !" from the Opposition, amidst which that of Mr. Emerson Tennent might be distin guished.) I hear the voice calling itself the representative of Belfast. Now, why should that Hon. Member, in a speech (which might, perhaps, have been written before it was spoken) which he delivered on introducing, to the notice of the House the petition from Belfast, attempt to place the question with reference to that city at least on religious grounds, when it was notorious that there were 22,000 of the inhabitants who were Roman Catholics, they belonging, too, to the poorer classes, and 58,000 of the richer classes, who were Protestants ? Now on what religious ground could he rest the question, or upon what principle could it be refused to the 22,000 that they should be suffered to share the privi leges of the 53,000 Protestants? This is a fact which shows the disposition of those opposed to giving the Irish people a just participation in equal rights : is is a family feature, which enables one to discover the true principles of his party, that the Hon. and Learned Member for Belfast should come down here, and, in a well arranged speech, rest upon this difference in religious opinion in favour of Protestantism, not as a reason for making Belfast free, but for the purpose of preventing that town from enjoying the benefits of Municipal Reform. Having alluded to the Corporation of Belfast, I may as well state that the corporators there belonged to the genuine sort. There were 13 of them. They had control over charitable funds to the amount of 5,0001. There are 3,0001. now forthcoming; the other 2,000/. have disappeared. It was charity money, and the Belfast corporators, in order to demonstrate how anxious they were to comply with the adage " charity ought to begin at home," retained amongst five or six of themselves 2,0001. of the money left to them in trust for the benefit of others.—( Loud laugh ter and cheers.) Well, to come back to the quest:oa before Well, we are to get rid of the Corporations. That is admitted on all hands. And again, I repeat my demand re spectfull:-, but firmly, for the same measure of municipal re form in Ireland as you have granted to Scotland and England. The Scotch Corporations were in the same situation with the Irish ; they were self-elected—they were corrupt : there was no identity of feeling between them and the population of the towns. No man stood up to defend the old Corporations of Scotland, every one threw them overboard ; but did any man dare to raise his voice in that House for the purpose of propo sing the extinction of the Scotch Corporations.—( Cheers.) If any one had the temerity to do so, how would the proposi tion be received here, or how would it be treated by the inha bitants of Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Paisley ? I tell you that it would not be submitted to, and the Scotch would be what they have never been, cowards and traitors to their native land, if they consented to such a !degradation. Well, Scot land has profited by the change, and much good may it do her. No man in Scotland rejoices more heartily than I do at the use which she has made of it. Next came England, when your Corporations were corrupt, and profligate, and bigoted— where Dissenters were excluded, first by law, and next by un just trammels.—(Hear, hear.) You destroyed the old sys tem, but was it proposed to annihilate the Corporations altogether ? No man dreamed of such a proposal. Scotland got a new system—England has got it, not of the same value as that conf e r r ed o n Scotland, but that is not the ' fault of the House of Commons. England has, at all events, acquired the principles of popular control and publicity of i proceedings. As I said before, Scotland has got t ; England has got it; will you tell me that Ireland is not to get it.— What I talk to my friend Mr. .Sheil of having threatened that Ireland would right herself, if ultimately wronged, without hope and prospect of redress.—( Hear, hear.) God forbid, Sir, that I should ever be guilty of the sin of despairing— ( Cheers)—with respect to my country. Talk not to me of compromise. I'll enter into no compromise with you.—( Re peated cheers.) I will have the principles of vigilant popu lar control and publicity of proceedings carried into operation with regard to the Corporations of Ireland.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet proposes a different plan for us—a royal commission, forsooth The people of Ireland have not sense enough to manage their own affairs, and a commission of lu nacy must be issued against them. That is your mode of governing the country—( Loud cheers)--that is the Right Hon. Baronet's splendid plan. But then it is said there is a question of religious supremacy mixed up with this ques tion of Municipal Reform. And here I must do the Noble Lord (Egerton) the justice to admit that he abstained as much as possible from any bigoted views of the measure before us. That credit must be given to the Noble Lord (Stanley) and the Right Honourable Baronet (Graham), his fellow rider in the Dilly, who show extreme purity of conscience in doing injustice to a nation, and prove their zeal in the cause of piety, by sanctioning the continuance of reli gious persecution.—( Loud cheers.) They have placed this question on religious grounds, and are terrified at the idea of the reform in Irish Corporations, lest the Protestants should be converted to Catholicity. Why these bodies have been preaching and practising piety and Protestantism these 300 years, and how is it that they never could manage to convert even a solitary Catholic during that perisd.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) I fancy I can sec the Hon. Member far Sligo falling on his knees, uplifting his eyes, and giving way to a burst of solemn supplication against the horrors of Popery, at die contemplation of those bodies, as soon as they are con verted into a propaganda for the promotion of the Catholic re ligion. —( Much laughter.) Sir, the scene now enacted in this House—the scene which Ireland now presents, is the same that it has exhibited for 700 years.—( Cheers. ) Sir John Davies, 220 years ago, published a tract discussing the rea son why Ireland never was conquered. He has been in his grave for 200 years; from his tomb he shall address a speech to those who would exclude the Irish from the benefit of good govern ment.—( Hear.) In 1614 Sir John Davies says, " Thi s th en I note as a great defect in the civil policy of this kingdom, in that for a space of 350 years after the conquest of Ireland has been attempted, English laws have not been communicated to the Irish for their benefit and protection, though they have earnestly desired and sought the same. "—( Cheers.) Is not that applicable to our present condition? Here am I now desir ing the protection and benefit of the English laws.—(Cheers.) Sir John proceeds, " In a word, if the English could not go vern Ireland by the sword, or root the population out of the soil, they must remain as brambles in their eye, and thorns in their side, and see their conquest never come."—( Loud cheers.) If the laws of England had been established,' and impartially administered—if, in the reigns of Henry, John, and Richard, the country had been di v id e d i nto count i es, j ust i ces sent half yearly to punish malef ac t ors —if t h e i r f a i rs and mar kets had been assimilated to the English, and corporate towns originated—assuredly Ireland would have been reduced by the salutary effects of equal laws and good government— ( Loud cheers.) There would have been a perfect union be. tween the nation—(Cheers again)—and consequently a per feet conquest of Ireland ; for the conquest never could be perfected, nor the two "countries enter into concord, until they are subjected to one King, one allegiance, and one law."—(Tremendous cheering followed the reading of this extract.) This was 221 years ago ; and here am I now, a descendant of that people thus described, debating the same question which this historian dwelt upon, and telling you not to dare to insult us any longer, by admitting that Scotland and England have obtained municipal franchises, and yet, under a paltry pretext, calling upon us to bow down in obedience to your will, while we are denied the privilege which you have gained.-( Cheers.) I tell you that, ,as we are " subjected to one King and one allegiance," there shall and there must be but " one law."—( Loud cheers.) The Union, indeed I h there a union between the countries? There is a parchment union. But I ask you now if the Government of this country was carried on in Ireland, and that a measure for Irish Corpo rate Reform was passed by a Parliament sitting there, and yet that i a similar measure of. relief was denied to the English, what in that case would you do with the parchment union? Tear it in pieces, of course.—( Cheers.) Or, what is much more likely, break with your good broad swords the head of the man who presumed to offer such an affront to your country. —( Loud cheers.) So England, so Scotland in accordance with her brave conduct at Bannockburn, would act under such circumstances. And do you mean to say that what you would not dare to tell England or Scotland, you are at liberty to call on Ireland to submit to ?—( Cheers.) The men of Ireland arc men who may shrink from peril and love not liberty ? I deny it. —( Cheers.) I, as one of them, may seem to shrink from dang e r in order to avoid a violation of conscience, which, rather than commit, lam ready to bear with any taunt ; but I m istake much those who sent me here, and the whole Irish nation, if the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet, or any other of the pious and pure protectors of corporate abuses, can, if equal civic privileges and rights are denied to the Irish people, pre vent the r e p ea l o f the union, if not the ultimate separation of the two countries ; for while we live and move we will never despair of achieving for ourselves the liberty which you deny us.—( Loud and long continued cheers.). But we are told again and again that the concession of just claims will end in !he triumph of Catholics over Protestants. Now, let me remind the Noble Lord, who ()tight to have read the history of t he country over which lie was appointed to legislate, that since the Reformation the Catholics have obtained power three times, and never in the sli g h tes t d egree abused it. But it is mere trifling with the question to suppose that the Catholics would use their power in a big* manner. Why, I have a return to prove that the efficient control over the Corporations will be vested, for th e greater part , i n t h e h an d s of' Protestant?. In Belfast the Protestants far exceed the Catholics ; in Dublin the Catholics arc in the proportion of two to one, and in the other towns of three to one ; but let this be recollected, that almost every Protestant will be a voter, from their being the most wealthy class, while there will be proportionably few Catholic electors. There are thirty Catholic Members in this House for Ireland ; that as the Catholics, who are 7-Bthi of THE SUTN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 9, 1836. the population, return no more than one-third of the Represer, tatives of the same persuasion as thelbselves, can any thi•ag be more illustrative of 'the fallacy that Catholic:: would unjustly predominate over Protestants in these Muncidal bodies ?—( Hear.) And, after this, do you still persev•lre in making us, as Sir J. Davies said, two nations ? And af,er having made large concessions, halt at the last step of vow progress to good government, and insult us by delaying th:tt measure of justice which you must know that you cannot eventually withhold? —( Lond cheers.) The voice of Englatal declares that we must have justice.—(Cheers.) Scotland reiterates the sentiment, and the people of Ireland will, I trust, soon be in a position unanimously to, demand it.— (Cheers.) After the expression of oi,inion which those of the Irish party most strongly opposed to me have very re cently I. obeyed, I cannot help thinking that after their feelings of wounded pride and vanity have subsided, that they will yield to the generous impulse of the love of country and af fectionate esteem for their fellow-subjects. They breathe the same kindly air ; they ate children of the same soil ; and though the Irish hand may for a time revolt, the Irish heart cannot long withstand the natural bent of its feelings, which, unlest you contrive to excite and embitter their minds by maintaining a difference of Interest between them, will inevi tably lead to a cordial union, by accustoming them to the so cial intercourse of business in their corporate capacity. — This is the view which you shouldtake; this is the question you should agitate. I thank the Right Honourable Baronet for alluding to my phrase about " peaceful agitation." I never was anxious to know where he got the extract ; and I saw that neither in the Mirror of Parliament or the Times was this phrase reported at all. But in the Morning Post, which, with the ex , :eptiOn of the Morning Chronicle, gives, in my opinion, the most accurate reports, as well as in the Mom ing Herald, I was correctly reported. In the Morning Chronicle my words are that these bodies " would be normal schools for peaceful agitation." That is what I said. But in my mind the great value of these Corporations is, that they afford a vent for peaceable agitation. The waters of political life are like those we consume—if they arc not agi tated properly, and at proper intervals . they become stagnant, and spread a noisome vapour over the scene they might other wise enliven and enrich.—( Hear, hear.) I maintain that in every free country peaceable political agitation, so far from injuring, is absolutely necessary to the continuance of that freedom. Peaceable agitation is, in fact, the price which wise men pay for liberty.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, the Right Hon. Baronet asks, " Will you, the British House of Commons, encourage this political agitator ?" I ask the same question. I ask you, the Commons of England, will you•encourage this political agitator by giving him the most excellent arguments and the most cogent motives for the continuance of his agita tion ?—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet asks again, will you give to Ireland a measure of Corporate Reform similar to that granted to England, after having so lately been obliged to bind down that country by a Coercion Bill ? What because a Whig Government in a moment of delusion and under mis conception► of the real state of our country gave us a Coercion Bill, are we not to have the abuses which have crept into our corporations remedied ?—( Hear.) Why, what were the cir cumstances under which that Coercion Bill was enacted ? The Right Hon. Baronet was a member of the Government when the first Coercion Bill was introduced, and sure am I, that had he and the Noble Lord near him been then sittii - ° r on the side of the House fr o m whi c h they now speak, that dis graceful measure would never have been thought of. But what, I ask, was the principal argument used by the intro ducers of that Bill to gain over to it the assent of the House ? Was it not the promise that Abe just grievances of the Irish people—and none more especially than those arising from the existing abuse of corporate affairs—should be considered, and with all possible dispatch removed ? The Government, upon introducing the Bill, made terms with the House, and through the House with the Irish people, and one of thosebeing a reform of their corporation, it was to be now seen whether those terms would be kept. Again, upon the debate on my motion for a repeal of the union, what was the compromise proposed by the Noble Lord who moved the amendment upon that occa sion ? Did he not distinctly promise that this very question of Corporate Reform should form the subject of immediate and satisfactory legislation.—( Hear.) If then, you disappointed the Irish people in the hopes you yourselves held out to them, if, after inducing them to abandon those questions which they deemed the best and speediest remedies for their grievances, but which to your feelings were displeasing, upon the distinct understanding that the great defects in their system of govern ment should be amended or removed, you now turn round on them and say, we will not keep faith with you, and we will not fulfil the engagements we contracted with you—what, I ask, do you expect from them ? Do you hope that with "bated breath and whispering humbleness" they will turn to you, and say, " True, you spit in my face, on Saturday, and on Sunday you called me a maniac and a bigot—you have bro ken every promise with me, and held me bay as you would an enemy and an assassin. Notwithstanding all this, however, you shall have my good love, my counsel, and my services, whenever and wherever you may desire them." Do you look for this patience, this tameness from the people of Ireland?— If you do, you will be deceived.—( Cheers.) We are ready to forget as we have forgiven your Coercion Bill, and the tardi ness with which you have set about remedying our grievances ; but in doing so we require that you remind us not of our want of a seArate Legislature by doing us further injustice. —( Hear, hear.) But while I am upon this general question of agitation, let me ask the Right Honourable Baronet opposite one question. He seems to think that the plan contemplated by . the Noble Lord who originated this dis cussion, is to withdraw all occasion for agitation upon corpo rate matters. What ! Does he think that the visits of the proposed Commissions will not give rise to agitation ? Does he wrap himself up in the delusion that the people will tamely arid quietly submit to the arbitration of these Commissions, and that there will, upon their appointment, be an immediate cessation of public meetings and political societies ?—( Hear.) Whv, the enactment of such a measure as that proposed by the Noble Lord, and the consequent rejection of that intro duced by the Government, will, on the moment, start up poli tical and revive Orange and Green Associations without num ber. Agitation shops would then become necessary, and Ireland, feeling that now its voice is but faintly heard in the council of the nation, will take means, such as it has not hitherto contemplated, to have its claims heard. Depend upon it, by the rejection or alteration of the Bill, as it stands, you will not diminish agitation in Ireland.- Far from doing so— you will encourage it by increasing the occasion for it ; and though it may not present itself to your eyes in the same shape it now assumes, rely upon it it will do so in another and a worse one,—( Loud cheers.) Come, then, I entreat you, to your only alternative. Come, then, to the peaceable agitation of th e se normal schools. Come, then, and joining in harmony and unity of purpose with his Majesty's Ministers, at least do an act of common justice towards neglected and injured Ire land.—( Cheers.) The real question at issue, whether Ire land shall be tranquillized, and whether, by having dealt out equal justice and similar laws with England, she is to con sider herself a portion of the British empire.—( Cheers.) This is the question, and for God's sake" seek not to swamp it by reference to matters and statements, and discussions which arc not incidental to it, and must tend to impede its deliberate and becoming decision. I now stand here before you the authorised representative of three provinces of Ireland, and in that capacity I tell you that I fling aside for ever the question of repeal, and that I will join with you, if heart and hand you will join with me in pacifying Ireland in the only way you will—you can—you ought to attempt her pacification. These are my terms. Will you or not assent to them ? Perpetual union— perpetual combination, and the perpetual bond of equal pri vileges and equal right.—( Cheers.) Deny us these terms, and let me tell you your union with Ireland will with one ef fort be rent asunder for, ever. (The lion, and Learned Member resumed his seat amidst loud and prolonged cheers.) Lord STANLEY, although he was well acquainted with the power and influence which were exercised by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down, in that part of the empire with which he had most immediate connection, could not but hesitate on the simple assurance now given, au thorised though it was stated to be by the people of Ireland, to enter into a compact with him as their plenipotentiary, be fore sonic security was given for the due performance of the conditions, and before even it was shown that the lion. and Learned Member was, as he represented himself, really in vested with the full power to make it.—( Cheers.) " Autho rized by the people of Ireland, I come here," exclaimed the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in his most grandiloquent, but certainly not very argumentative speech, " I come here, au thorized by the people of Ireland, to tell you, the British House of Commons, that we are willing to forget past injuries, and to concert with you the conditions of future unity ; but if our conditions are not acceeded to, I am then instructed to tell you that again the banner of Repeal shall float upon the breeze, until victory shall crown it with the laarels of t r iumph." Such in t erms had been the threat of Ireland's authorised ple hipotentionary—such in terms was the alternative which in his capacity of authorised representative of Irish agitation, the Honourable and Learned Member proposed,—( Hear, hear.) And where, he begged to ask, was this boasted autho risation given ?—( Hear.) At a dinner in Tuam—( A laugh) —a supper in the King's County—or at a meeting held in a room in Dublin.—( Cheers and laughter.) And was the House of Commons to be gravely told that on these specific occasions the people of Ireland had given their plenipotentiary such an authority to act for them as they could, with either dignity or propriety, entertain ?—( Hear.) Why, even if the lion. and Learned Gentleman needed an authority to act for a large por tion of the people of Ireland, no authority could be communi cated to him in such a manner.—( Hear.) It seemed to him that the Hon. and Learned Member had cautiously avoided going very deeply into this question.—( Cheers.) Numerous, without doubt, were the topics to which he had adverted, and powerful Lad been the language which, upon this occasion as upon all others, he employed in discussing those topics ; but with an extreme of ca'.tion he had confined himself to a simple declaration of the resolution to which he and those he repre sented had come—that resolution being expressed in the words " we must have equal justice, or we will have nothing' at all." Cheers.) There was to be no base compromise." No single point was to be flinched from—(Cheers) —and no matter how or by what means brought about, there was to be a perfect, entire, uniform equalisation of condition and laws between the two countries, without even a reference to their totally dissimilar positions and entirely varied cireum stanees.—( Hear.) " Equal justice we will have," mild l y ex claimed t h e H on. and Learned Member, " or else Repeal.!'— ' ( Hear.) Now he ( Lord Stanley) begged to ask who was to define for that House what in Ireland was meant by the words " equal justice ?—( Hear. ) W e re th -y, upon any question— no matter w h at its natruc to take the word of the Hon. and Learned Member on this point ?—([lsar, hear, bear.) Were they, he asked, to apply to the term " equal justice" such meaning as, in the spirit of the moment, or on the impulse of the moment, or for the political purpose the lion. and Learned Gentleman might choose to attach to it.—( Renewed cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") It was not so many years since Catho lie Emancipation was designated by the party which the Hon. and Learned Member so peculiarly represented as the all in all of equal justice.—(Loud cheers.) Upon the passing of that, measure it was stated that no more demands were to be made, that a perfect equality was then obtained, and that Ire land had no further ground for complaint. Had such proved th 3 case? Alas ! far from it. Thep were now told that Ire land was labouring under a stigma, and that it would ever consider itself under disgrace unless the same laws which were passed for England were passed for Ireland.—( Hear.) The same laws ?—did the words "equal justice" mean the same laws, or did they not mean the same laws?—(Hear.) In the course of the discussion several Honourable Members had stated that they would not be satisfied until they obtained full justice for Ireland.—( Hear.) The people of Ireland said so, and the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, the authorized Representative of that people, or a majority of' them, said so, and therefore it must be done.—( Hear.) To this he replied, " So should the House of Commons say, so would he say."— ( Loud cheers.) Ile (Lord Stanley) as a Member of that House now proclaimed that he would never be satisfied until equal justice was established in Ireland.—(Cheers.) He would not be satisfied until he saw every man of every sect, of every profession, of every station in life, however humble or exalted, brought tilder the control and domination, but at the. same time under the protection, of one and the same law.— ( Cheers.) He would not be satisfied until he saw in Ireland life secured against ‘iadictievness, barbarities restrained, and ' the laws carried into effect for the protection of the people, of the people- at large.—( Cheers.) What, he asked, was the object of having different Bills for the two countries—and why was it not so arranged that by a single clause each Bill pas . sed for the one country might be extended to the other? —( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who spoke last seemed to be much disappointed that no one had stood up to deend the exclusive system of the old Cerpo ratoas of Ireland.—( Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell.) He (Lord Stanley) for one had never defended them, and he was tot then about to do so. He admitted that they were bad in principle—that they were not adapted to the spirit of the day—and that they were altogether inconsistent with the present state of satiety.—. (Cheers.) He admitted this—nay more, he claimed that they were so, because upon the admis sion of that fact was entirely founded the measure of a bleb he was the advocate. While, however, making this admission, he contended that while about to pull down that which was unsuited to the present state - of the country, they were bound to look to the substitute which it was proposed to call into existence, and that they should consider more whether the measure proposed was expedient and necessary for Ireland, and not merely the fact that it had been enacted for England. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had contended that the most advisable plan would be to sweep away Corpo rations at once and for ever.—(Hear, hear.) Why so it was contemplated by the proposition which he (Lord Stanley) supported; while by that proposed by Government, mayors, recorders, sheriffs, town-clerks, mace-bearers,' purse-bearers, and the whole paraphernalia of Corporations were continued, and even extended ; and that in a manner which, he was ready to prove, would be a curse to the several boroughs, and at the same time most dangerous to the -peace of the empire at large.—( Hear.) He desired to say one word with reference to the argument of those Gentlemen who do not ask that a Bill precisely the same as that passed for England should be extended to Ireland, but who, nevertheless, contended for the adoption of one and the same prihciple in the two measures. In the first place he had to observe, that the expression, " adoption of one and the same principle," was a somewhat vague one, especially when addressel to the HouSe by tho. e who were the advocates for an identity of' interests between the two countries. What was meant by this principle alluded to? Was it that of popular control ? (Cheers.) The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer cheered him—might lie ask what that Right Hon. Gentleman meant by the principle of popular control ? Did he mean the giving to a certain class the power of making the laws, or the power of appointing those who should be qualified to make the laws, or the power of reverence of the laws, or the power of control over their administration, through the medium of puli licity ? All these four attributes, namely, of absolute legis lation, the appointment of legislators, the power of superin tendence, and veto and publicity to all, were but the modifi cations of that which was designated popular control. Now, what was meant by popular control ? Those who contended for a similarity of measures for the two countries, told him that they wanted the principle of popular control introduced into the Irish Corporations. Now what did they mean by the term ? Popular control might be the control of 50/. house. holders, or of 20/. householders, or of 10/. householders, or of 51. householders—in short, the control of any set of indi viduals in the kingdom.—( Hear, hear.) The control of any of those classes would strictly speaking be popular control ; and yet upon their difference depended not merely a detail, but the very principle of the measure to be adopted.—( Cries of " oh, 0t , .") Why, cotiel ;it be contended that the 10!. franchise was a mere detail of the Reform Bill ? Was it not the very base and essence of the measure ?—( Hear, hear.) Well then, it being admitted that the differences of the qualifi cation over which the term popular control might be made to extend were several, was it not necessary, in order to bring England and Ireland under a similarity of circumstances, that they should adopt an. identity of qualification.—( Hear, and bries of " No, no," from the Ministerial benches ) He al most despaired of making his argument intelligible to the Hon. Gentlemen who cried " No ;" but; nevertheless, he would try.— ( A laugh.) When the English Municipal Re form Bill was under consideration, would it not have been considered to make a material alteration in the whole cha racter of the measure, if, instead of fixing the. amount of qualification at 101. a year, it had been fixed at 501. or 20/. ? Certainly, it would have been so considered.—( Hear, hear.) When, therefore, they were told that they were to apply the same principle to the Irish as they had adopted in the , English Bill, was it not evident they failed in doing so, unless they named the qualification of 10/. house holders.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Again, what were the qua lifications as to residence, &c. in the English Bill? Per manence of residence, and a permanent payment of rates for three years, were made essential. Were these qualifica tions required in the Irish Bill ? Neither one or the other of them. In that latter measure, but a six months' residence, with a Si. qualification, and without any payment of rates, was all that was required ; and that, they were told, was, as regarded Ireland,• an identity of legislation with the 10/. qua. lification, with permanent residence and payment of rates, of the English Bill.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Le erne 1 Member who in the last session introduced the Ministerial plan of Irish Municipal Reform to the House, hal endeavoured in his statement to apologise for this-discrepancy ; his argu ment being, that in the vast majority of the towns of Ireland, it would-be impossible to find a 101. constituency for the new corporations. Now, if that was the case, his (Lord S:ar:- ley's) argument in reply was, that where a 101. constituency could not be had, there was no claim, no need, or indeed use for a Corporation.—( Hear, hear.) Surely it could not be said that the wealthy town of Londonderry, containing a po pulation of 10,900 souls, could not find a most numerous 101. constituency.--( Hear.) Then, he maintained, it was not necessary to go so low as a Si. franchise. It would be said, doubtless, that if there was anything in his argument for withholding Corporations altogether, it only applied to the small towns, and could not apply to suc h pl aces as B e lf ast , Dublin, or Cork. Now, upon this point he begged to ask, in what respect was the City of Westminver inferior ' in importance or extent, to the cities of Dublin, Bel fast, or Cork ? Why, when such towns as Manchester, Bir mingham, Sheffield, or themetropolitan boroughs of London, which, up to this day, had progressed most nourishingly with lout Corporations, and which, up to the present hour, had never gone so far as to petition for corporate charters, should it be so necessary to give them even to the largest towns in Ireland ? —( Hear, hear.) It was a thorough fallacy to suppose, that by withholding or doing away with Corporations, towns were deprived of the benefits of municipal gcverninent. It had been that evening clearly shown by the Honourable Men .b r 'for Belfast—that Hon. Member whose return to Parliament the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin said reflectel shame upon the constituency of Belfast, but which, in his (Lord Stanley's opinion, reflected upon that body high honour— (Cheers) —that Hon. Member showed diAinc.ly that in the case of the town of Belfast there were for all municipal pur poses separate boards, some under the control of the Crown, and some under popular election, by which all matters of mu nicipal arrangement were carried on without the intervestion of any Corporation whatever. The total amount of Corpo rate property in Ireland was 61,3971. OF this 28,0001. be longed to the Corporation of DUblin, while of the remaining 33,0001. there was claimed by five towns only 21,8001. leaving to the remaining forty-tour towns but 11,0001. Now could it be contended that it was expedient for the cal e of this insig nificant sum to tax the inhabitants of those forty-four towns with all the expenses attendant upon municipal paraphernalia ? —( Hear.) But a great part of the revenue of these corpora tions arose from tolls. This was especially the case at Cork and Kilkenny. Now it was an undisputed fact, that it would be impossible to confer a greater benefit on Ireland than to abolish the system of tolls, wherever they could be abolished. " But," said the lion. Member for Waterford, " will you con sent to the appropriation of the tolls, which arc the property of these corporations, to other purpoies ?" No ; but he would institute an inquiry into the nature of the tolls ; he would inquire what were the functions of the corporations ; be would inquire what benefit would accrue to the inhabitants from the remission of the tolls ; and if he could satisfy himself that the remission of the tolls would be advantageous to the people of Ireland, and especially to the inhabitants of towns, he would prefer the abolition of tolls to any proposed system of self government. He had no jealousy of the people of Ireland as to their superintendence of local objects, if to local objects that superintendence were confined. We had no jealousy of the Catholics of Ireland as Catholics. But on considering the subject he was bound to look at the present state of Ireland. In the constitution of the new boards control must be con ferred, influence must be given on the part of Catholics aga'nst Protestants, or Protestants against Catholics, in every little town of Ireland. lie was sorry that the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had gone away the moment he saw him (Lord Stanley) rise ; because it was always pleasanter to say any thing in answer to any one in his presence rather than in his absence. That Hon. and Learned- Gentleman in answer to 60111 C observations made by his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Cumberland, with respect to the disrespectful conduct of the Rev. John Burke to Ensign Matson, of the 59th, who had attended the Roman Catholic chapel, in com mand of a detachment of Roman Catholic soldiers, said that he was quite sure no Roman Catholic clergy man would use the word " heretics," in the manner imputed. Now he (Lord Stanley) had turned to the minutes of evidence given before the Committee of 1832 on the state of Ireland ; and lie found Ensign Matson stating that Mr, Burke had said from the chapel, I will tell you what it is, boys, the tottering fabrics of the heretics are falling about their ears, whilst the Catholic religion is rising boysi,ngin g ; 1 o it y will day. slial 1 I Ireland Catholic was I, o-enlcne.d C . el t hc being asked if he had used those expressions, Mr. Burke re - a "O l i l i Ireland, re plied, " The word ' boys' I did not use. I said, 'the tottering fabric of heresy was falling around us, while the Catholic reli gion was rising in glory,' undonbtedly."—( Hear, hear.) And ',vet the lion. and Learned Gentleman contended, that no Ro man Catholic clergyman would bring himself to use so offen sive a term as heretc. There was also the case of Lieutenant Blown—in which case words were used by the Catholic priest at the altar of so offensive a nature, that the officer was com pelled to march his troeps ont of the chapel. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin said that he was aware he !led too much influeace in Ireland. and that he wished that in,- fluence were diminished. Good easy man ! He did not de sire popularity an I power, no ; he sighed for obscurity ; and recommended that the influence which he possessed should be diminished. The lion. and Learned Gentleman had told his Majesty's Ministers so ; and his Majesty's Ministers believed Lim.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin said that this was the last qep. Who knew that it would be the last step ? Who believed that it would be the last step ?—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gen tleman said that the Protestant religion was the established religion in England. because Protestants formed the majority of the population ; and that the Presbyterian religion was the established religion. in Scotland, because Presbyterians formed the majority of the population. The Hun. and Learned Gentleman proceeded to declare that equal justice ought to be done to Ireland. What could that mean, but that the religion of the great majority of the population of Ireland should pre vail, and that that should become the established religion. e— ( Hear, hear. ) And why was it that the Hon. Gentle-_.an said the population of Scotland obtained their existing religious establishment? B ecause t h ey h a d broadswords, sharp and long.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Would the House of Cor•mons listen to such arguments ? Would they believe that this was the last step. _e( Hear, bear, hear.) No ; the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin avowedehe existence of ulterior objects. He had ulterior objects (and his Majesty's Govern ment knew it) far beyond any hitherto disclosed.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The object of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was evident, and he went straight forward to it. Ile ( Lord Stan ley) did nottlame him; but if he might do so without offence. he would apply to his Noble and Hon. Friends opposite the words, severe and earnest in their meaning, which the greatest of our writers had put into the mouth of one of the most finely drawn of his characters, when addressing those who had raised Bolingbroke to the throng of England : " I cannot blame his cousin king, That wish'd him on the barren mountains siarv'd. But shall it be, that you—th a t s e t th e crown Upon the head of this forgetful man, And, for his sake, wear the detest e d bl o t Of murd'rous subornation—shall it be • That you a world of curses undergo,, Being the agents, or base second insane, The cords, the ladder, or the 1- .,ingman rather ?- 0, pardon me, that I des: cau l so low To show the li ne; a ; s. - .A the predicament. Wherein yoo 'range under this subtle king— Shall it, 'or shame, be spoken in these days, . Or fill up chronicles in times to come, That men of your nobility and power, bid gage them both in an unjust behalf— As both of you, Gad pardon it ! have done— To put down Ri.thard, that sweet lovely rose, And plant this thorn, this canker, Bolingbroke? And shall it, in more shame, be further spoken, That you are fooi'd, discarded, and shell; off By him, for whom these shames ye .underwent ? No; yet time serves, wherein- you may redeem Your ban:sled honours, and restore yourselves , • Into the good thoughts of the world again : Revenge the jeering, and disdain'd contempt, Of this proud king, who studies, day m e i ni g ht, • To answer a ll th e debt he owes to you, Even with the bloody payment of your deaths." He called on his Majesty's Ministers ; he entreated them ; he implored them ; were it only for their own sakes, to dare to fill the stations which they appear to occupy, to do equal and impartial justice to all classes and denominations of his Ma jesty's subjects; to support, maintain, and uphold nu equal ad ministration of the law; and with respect to Ireland, espe cially, to be the faithful protectors and friends of every party, without making themselves the slaves of any.—( Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said, that although he was bound to maintain deetrines which were perfectly .consistent with the policy of this country, yet he, notwithstanding, found him self in a singular position. In former times he had had to contend that it was incumbent on the Government to reform and not to destroy our institutions; that there was sufficient worth and excellence in them to make it desirable to bring th.en back to their ancient intents; hut he.now found himself, whilst advocating these • doctrines, opposed by those win st, led themselves the Conservatives of this country. It was they who came forward and maintained that it was rash to preserve these institutions, that the institutions were utterly foolish, and that no term of opprobrium was too heavy, and ne sentence of extinction too severe, to be uttered against them.—( Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") They who maintained opinions so different from what they had formerly held had no right to call upon Ministers for extraordinary exertions to prove that their case was that which ought to be adopted by the House. It was for them to show that there was something so peculiar in the corporations of Ireland, that Ministers ought to abandon their principles. To show that the doctrines which he entertained were those of a great authority, the Noble Lord proceeded to read an extract from the works of Burke, after which he stated that what he had read contained the words of one of the greatest men this couutry ever produced, and re lated to the revolution of their great neighbour France. (The words of the extract read did not reach the gallery.) He would then proceed to consider the schemes of the Noble Lord and of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. At that late hour he would confine himself only to the chief points of the question, without speaking at any length upon the general scheme of the Bill. He would content himself with observing, that it was the same as the Bill of last year, that its purport was to preserve the corporations, but to place them under more vigilant popular controul, and to assimilate them more to their original intention. After alluding to the principal provi sions of the Bill, and expressing his surprise that it should be considered as interfering with the adininistration,pf justice, the Noble Lord, with reference to the proposition of the Hon. Gen tlemen on the other side of the house, observed that their e.hjec , - tion was to giving the power under this bill to corporate bodies, and their wish to vest that power it, a commission. Surely such a thing had never before been heard of as taking away from towns the controul over property, as well as the property itself, which had been from time to time specifically left them. On the subject of tolls he professed his perfect willingness to enter into an inquiry with the serious and sincere intention of placing them upon the best possible footing that circumstances would permit. In illustration of the facilities which existed for that purpose, he should mention the case of tolls which were payable in Galway, which were held in trust, the payment of which had been for some time suspended, and which finally had been brought under the jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery in Ireland when .Sir Anthony Hart filled the offico of Lord Chancellor. The decision which that learned judge gave on the subject proved satisfactory to the parties con cerned, and thenceforward the tolls were regularly paid, from which the inference was obvious, that if the mode of levying the tolls were equal and just, as well as their application according to law and for the good of the community, the dif ficulties which in some places had arisen with regard fo the collection of those tolls would totally disappear.—(Hear, hear.) He would now mention another fact. It so happened that some tolls were payable in Ennis to a Noble Lord-. he believed he might mention his name—they were pay able to Lord Egremont. According to his charter he could collect those tolls only on a Tuesday, and the result was that the people brought all the articles on which toll could be charged to market on other days ; but what did the Govern ment of that period ? The Right Hon. Baronet; time Member for Tammvorth, being then Prime Minister, and the Right Hon. and gallant Officer opposite, the Chief Secretary for Ireland— What, he would ask, had been done? every day of the week.—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial granted to the Noble Lord entitling him to c "Ti o 'Y liec a tl i h is ar t t o e l r ls " u 'a ri s side.) That occurred in the month of February, 1535 ;it was, therefore, but very recently that the opponents of the present measure evinced so much zeal in favour of the abolition of all imaginable corporate rights. The zeal with which they were now animated must be regarded as something perfectly novel, as so exceedingly recent, that it must have sprung up in the course of a very short time—having been actually the growth of the very last winter. Sir H. H A RDINGE wished to be made acquainted with the 'authority upon which the Noble Lord made the foregoing statement. Lord J. RUSSELL resumed, but we did not hear the ob servation which immediately followed. lI then proceeded to say, that between the two measures—that presented for their acceptance by his Majesty's Government, and that recom mended them by the Noble Lord and the Right lion. Gentle man opposite, there existed very clear and distiuct grounds of choice —very wide, indeed, was the difference between the rash and raidd course which came supported by the advocacy of the other side of the Ilouse, and that calm deliberate regard to the rights of person and property which, as he would contend, characterized the Bill introduced by his Majesty's Government, although the individuals who were row tae friends of destruction were formerly those who announced the necessity of proceeding with -the utmost caution, in tho most gradual manner, and with the least possible violence, even to the form of existin g institutions. The full admission of Noble Lords and Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite on former occasions most certainly was, that we not only ought to have Municipal Corporations in all the great towns, but that there should be as little departure from ancient models as was found consistent with the establishment of a good system qMhuni cipal Government. S ure ly the House must agree with im, that i, the plan nw proposed for the purpos e of enabling. hers opposite to get out of the embarrassments_m which they found themselves placed was a most clu ms y and common ex. pedient that it was a rash and revolutionary contri vance, i n order to sustain institutions fault y in_ themselves, an d un worthy and incapable of a p rotracted existence.--(llear,) He looked in vain in the speeches made last week by. the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Cumberland, or that made during the present discussion by the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire, for anythinr, like a reason where with to sustain the p ro p osal that hadproceeded from !be . other side. Wh en he s p o ke of a reason, h e o f course al t luded to something , of a kind that ought tc p rove satisfac tory to a ratior al mind. There was, he acknowledged, something that bore the shadow and Semblance of a rcasoo. and that was that the Roman Catholics formed the great major:ty of the people of lreland.—(Cheers from the Mi nisterial benches.) If that were to be received as a reason, he begged to inquire for what purpose bad the measure of Roman Catholic Emancipation been passed, if it were not in spirit to be carried through all our institutions ? lie hesitated not to say, that that great change had not yet been carried through our institutions as its authors, or at least its earlier advocates Originally designed ; and to him it ap peared that there was nothing of wisdom or of police, still less of justice or of generosity, it - , delaying to let its spirit enter into all our councils, and form au element in every pro-