The Sun. — London, England, 1821-05-15 00:00:00

skinences. His Noble Friend had however-ex plained that he meant This selection to take place, 'only after Parliament had deprived a place of the right of voting ; but what he objected to was the disfranchisement of a borough at all. Of 'the two modes of transfer whiCh had been sug gested, that of giving two additional Members to `the county of York was the best, because it cre ated no new right of voting. He however objected to the Bill altogether. • Lord REDESDALE was against the measure be fore the House, which appeared to him to lead to the system of the French convention, or the di viding. the. country' into departments, in order to found representation on the basis of population. It seemed to him impossible that their Lordships could proceed with this Bill without acknow ledging the principle" laid down by the French convention. lie opposed the Bill, therefore, on the ground of its introducing this new principle. If that.principle were once.admitted, their Lord ships would afterwards find it very difficult to give•answ6t`t9ithe demands set up by the advo cates of .gener.6l Reform. The Bill did not" fol low- the precedent already adopted in similar 'Cases, and.-therefore ought to be rejec'ted, The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to put the question, and • read Lord Lauderdale's oration. - The Marquess of LANSDOWN observed, that the Motion just read had for its object to ascertain the number of persons who had been guilty, and the number not guilty of corruption ; but any question Might arise 'on that subject had no reference to the objection of the Noble -Lord who spoke last, and the Noble Secretary of State ; for they opposed the Bill be - cause it proposed to transfer the right of election, instead of "throwing it into the hundred. That was a question for the consideration of a Committee ; and the Noble Lords ought therefore to support the motion for committing his Bill. The Earl of LAUDERDALE replied in support 'of his . motion. Earl BATHURST read the preamble of the Bill, and ob- , serVed that he could not agree to go into the Committee, as file two leading objects of the measure were the disfranchisement of Grampound, and the transfer of the right of voting ; to nei ther of which he could accede. If the House went into the ComMittee, it would be necessary to alter every clause of the Bill. The question teas put on the Earl of Lauderdale's motion, which was negatived without a division. The Order of the Day for the House going into the Com mittee was then moved. Lord SIDMOUTH observed that he had originally wished that the Bill should come to a Committee in order that the propositions it contained might be fairly and fully discussed ; but on considering the object of the measure, and the manner . in which the Bill was framed, he saw that it was impos- Sible for any person to agree to go into a Committee who did • - not adopt the principle that the Borough of Grampound ought • to be disfranchised. He wished Ghat the proposition had been to throw the Borough into the Hundred, which would have been acting on experience. The Marquess Of LANSDOWN rose to move the postpone , ment of the Committee to , Monday next. This motion he thought ought to be agreed to, as matter of common courtesy. From what passed on the second reading, it was understood that the Bill would be debated on the report, or on the third reading; . at least it was not intimated that it would be opposed on going into the Committee. In consequence of this understanding, ten or twelve Peers were absent, who would have attended had there been reason to expect that the House was to come to a de cision on the Bill that night. He trusted, therefore, that their Lordships would agree to the amendment he meant to move, • namely—that instead of now, the Bill be committed on Mon day next. Earl BATIIURST had no wish to take the House by sur prise, and therefore would not oppose the amendment. The LORD CHANCELLOR also intimated his assent to . -the delay. The Earl of WESTMORLAND declared that he would oppose the Bill in every stage. The amendment was then agreed to; and an order was made for summoning their. Lordships on Monday.—Adjourned. . . HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. * DENISON presented a Petition from the Inhabitants 'of St. Marv, Newington, against the Newington Select Vestry Bill.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. DENISON then presented another Petition, which he Observed was of a very extraordinary nature. The Petition which had been presented by the Inhabitants of St. Mary, Newington, against the Select Vestry Bill, was signed by 1,965 persons, the Petition from the Rector, Churchwardens, (lover riors, Guardians of the Poor, tte. in favour of the Bill, was signed by only 106 persons. Of those 106, however, it appear ed that not a few had been induced to sign by a misapprehen sion of the objects of the Bill. He held in his hand a Petition from one of those individuals, of :the name of James Corner, who complained that he had been misled with respect to the real purpose of the Bill, to which he was decidedly adverse.— The Petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table. Sir R. WILSON presented a similar Petition from William Copeley ; Mr. Whitbread, one from George ; Sir W. De Crespigny, one from George Ives ; and Mr. Lambton, one from Thomas Clarke ; all of which were read, and ordered to be laid on the table. On the motion of Mr. JOHN SMITH, the Committee on the Bankruptcy Laws Bill was postponed to Thursday. On the motion of Mr. ScARLETT, the second reading of the Poor Laws Amendment Bill was postponed to Monday the '2lst instant. Mr. H. SUMNER presented a Petition from John Clatton, in favour of the Newington Select Vestry .Bill, and complaining of the extremely riotous conduct of the Vestries in that parish for some years past. The Clerk was proceeding to read the Petition at - length, . -when Mr. CUR'%VEN rose to order. He objeCted to the Petition being received, on the ground that it went to state transac tions which occurred in a Committee of that House after strangers were excluded, and of which Petitioner could know nothing. The SPEAKER decided, that the Petitioner being the agent of certain persons concerned in the Bill, had a right to state any matter which he might have learned from a Member of the Committee, as having taken place after strangers were ex -eluded. Mr. HUME said, he wished to know whether the Petition did not contain the following words :—" And the Committee decided contrary to the usage and practice on such occasions," and if so, whether that was not a Breach of Privilege ? Pa The Clerk read the Petition a second time to the House.— On the question that the Petition do lie on the table, Mr. CURIVEN said he felt it his duty to oppose it. If they received such Petitions they would open a wide door to Com plaints against the proceedings of Committees appointed by that .louse. The House was about to divide, but Mr. CURIVEN having withdrawn his opposition, the Peti tion was laid on the table. • The Marquess of LONDONDERRY rose at the same time, to address the House, when A Message from the Lords announced that their Lordships had given their assent to several private Bills. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY brought up papers containing a copy 'of Viscount Castlereagh's dispatch to Sir `V. A'Court. Orderer to be printed. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY and Mr. H. SUM .NER again rose together, but the latter being called upon pro -:seeded to address the House. He said, that however import -ant he might conceive the Newington Vestry Bill to be, he --could not at that hour detain the House upon what was called private business. He was anxious that there should be a full attendance on the discussion of this question, and therefore lie would bring it forward to-morrow at the close of the private business, and before public business commenced. Mr. DENISON asked his Hon. Colleague (Mr: 11. Sum . ner) what line lie meant to take with respect to this Bill. Ile (Mr. Denison) was most anxious that the question should be sifted to the bottom. :(Mr. Sumner did not answer.) Sir F. BURDETT expressed a hope that the question would not interfere with his motion to-morrow. Mr. BENNET said a few words which were inaudible in the gallery. ' The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, he felt it his duty to move that the Order of the Day, " that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply," be now read. - After a few words across the table front Dr. LusiiixoroN, Sir J. NEWPORT wished to know what course was to be -taken with respect to the Bank of Ireland Bill, which stood for a Committee that•night ? -Serjeant ONSLOW observed, that the : second reading of the ' Usury Laws Repeal Bill also stood for that ev_ating, and he •-was-most anxious that it should be fully discussed. The SPEAKER said, it was competent to any Member-to press a motion which had precedence, though the usual courte -sey of the House was to give way to business of treat im :portance. Serjeant ONSLOW bowed to the decision of the Speaker, ,end would fix to-morrow for his motion. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY observed, that there' was - no 'other public businest of so much in: ortahce as the Committee of Supply. Both the Usury Laws Bill and the Bank of Ireland Bill Might 'be postponed without inconveni dite.—The house had already lost an hour and a half in dis cussing private business. Sir J. NEWPORT said, all he asked was., that the Bank .of Ireland Bill should not ,be brought on 'at so late an hodr as to, prevent its being discussed in a full House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that it was not his intention to bring the Bill on at a late hour. When it went into a Committee, he trusted he should satisfy the Hon. Baronet upon it. • After a few words from Mr. BRIGHT and the Marquess of LONDONDERRY, Mr..DENISON asked his Honourable Friend (Mr. Sum her) when he intended to'bring on his motion ? Mr. 11. SU3INER said, if the Bill was to pass at all, it must pass immediately, as the lateness of the Session would not allow of delay : he would, therefore,_ fix his motion for Wednesday. Mr. BENNET begged to know from the Honourable Mem her i(3lr. Sumner) what he was about to.propose in this Bill ? —( Hear, hear !)--Mr. Sumner made no answer. • On the Order of the Day_ being again moved; Mr. CREEvEY gave notice, that he would, on Thursday the 24th instant, bring forward a motion relative to the four and a half per cent. Bar badoca Fee Fund. COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. The Ordet , of the Day was then put and car. ried, and the House resolved itself into a Corn tnittee of Supply=. On the resolution for granting a sum not ex ceeding 43,071.1. 12s. Sd., for the salaries of the Master-General of Ordnance, and the Officers in the Tower and Pall Mall, Mr. It. WARD begged the Honourable Mem ber for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) to explain some observations which he had made relative to this department, on a former evening. Mr. Hume said his observations were, that ac cording to the returns, it appeared that sixty seven clerks of this department had been ap pointed since 1816. Mr. WARD proceeded to explain the nature of those appointments, but from the very. great noise which prevailed in the House, we were ml able to catch his observations. Colonel DAvits asked a question relative to the patronage enjoyed by the Ordnance Board. Mr. WARD observed, that the Master General of the Ordnance possessed the entire command, and could reverse any order of the Board, but that where he did not interfere the Board acted. There were four officers under the Master Ge neral, who received no salaries, and who had the power of appointing their own clerks. Colonel DAvtEs said, that according to the statement of the Honourable Gentleman at the other side, the Master-General of the Ordnance was a mere puppet, without either patronage or responsibility. Mr. WARD said, he was astonished to hear the Honourable,Gentleman. The Honourable Gen- tleman seemed to speak like one who had never attended a debate in that House, and who was an absolute stranger in England. The Right Honourable Gentleman then went into a detail of the number of offices at the disposal and under the controul of the Master-General of the Ordnance. After a few words from Sir JOHN NEWPORT, Mr. BIRCH said, that in his opinion the Esti mates before the House would have justified a much more severe opposition than was carried on by Members at his side of the House. Ile thought that it was not fair to compare the Esti mates of the present year with those of 1792. The situation of England at present was in every way different from the situation in which she stood in 1792. The country was then on the eve of war; at present we were in profound peace, and had been so for some years. The Hon. Member next drew a comparison between the amount of the Army Expences of France and in England, and contended that on the face of the Estimates before the House, there appeared an excess of expenditure of 5,500,0001. and if the statement of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) were true, of six millions sterling. Mr. GORDON said, he very confidently believ ed that it was the custom hi many of the public offices to employ clerks, to make work for each other. Mr. litntE said, that since the conclusion of the war, no less than 67 individuals had been brought into the Civil Department of the Ord nance, whose salaries amounted to 6,939/. The Civil List was by.this means augmented to nearly 25,0001. These persons would doubtless, in course of time, become entitled to superannua tion and retired allowances, which, had they been taken as they ought to have been, from the half-pay list, that sum would have been saved to the public. The lion. Member, after a variety of details, adverted to"an assertion he had made on a former discussion on this subject relative to he tonnage of an Ordnance craft called - the Lord lowe. The House would bear in mind that he (Mr. II.) stated, that he had sent a person down to Sheerness to take the measure of that craft, and found that it was twenty tons. Upon this assertion he was flatly contradicted by the Hon. Gen!leman opposite (Mr. Ward). He had now to state to the (rouse, that he was fully confirmed in the correctness of his assertion on that occa sion, and as a curious coincidence, he found in a printed Report on the table of the House, a re turn of the tonnage of that identical vessel at twenty tons. lie mentioned this as a specimen of the weight whiCh ought to be attached to any thing which fell from the opposite side, and he would venture to say, that all their assertions were of the same description. He could not at all understand how the Hon. Gentleman could come forward and say, that all the recommendations of the Commissioners for Military Inquiry had been attended to when any one who would compare • the Report of the Coinmissioners with the Esti, mates would perceive that that Report was to all intents and purposes a (lead letter. The Hon. Member had omitted all notice of the enormous increase in the expenditure since the year 1792, being from 400,0001. to 1,400,0001. This was a most material point, and all that the lion. Mem ber could say as to the exigency of the times, was in his opinion no answer. at all. The aspect of the times was greatly changed for the better, and the income tax being taken off ought to cause a'reductioh in all salaries. The Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) alluded to an improvident contract for horses for the artillery, in the year 1806 or 1807.—(Some lion. Member observed, that the Whigs were in office at that time.)—lle did not care whether it was the Whigs or the Tories that did it, he was for economy ; and if the Whigs did such a thin!, so much the worse, for they always had ecdnom); in their mouths.—(Cheer6 from the Treasury Benches.)—These things arose from the want of a proper person at the head of the Ordnance Office; for he maintained that the Duke of Wellington and Lord Moira, from their situations in the Council and high rank fit society, could not give that attention to the office ‘vhich it required. He next alluded to the principle of gratuities, which he condemned. Up to the termination of the war, these gratuities amounted to 20,0001.; and now, during peace, had amounted to 30,0001. Since 1796 this esta blishment had increased its expenditure from 18,7261. to 63,2721., being an augmentation of 44,5461. He thought he could not do less than propose a reduction of '25 per cent. on the grant proposed. He objected to - the salary of 8271. paid to Captain Dickenson, in addition to his half-pay. He next noticed the increased expence i❑ the office of the Surveyor-General. In 1796 there were fourteen clerks under the Surveyor. General, now there were thirty-six. At the former period the expence was 2,0191. per an num, now it amounted to 10,6211. This was the sort of economy pursued in this department —" Ex 21710 disce omnes." He had moved for a Return:to chew the number of clerks who were paid in other ways than by salaries which ap peared in the Estimates. He found about fifty clerks that were paid by bills and debentures.— The expence of the Storekeeper General's De partment he complained of, and declared it to be his Conviction that the duties of Ordnance Establishments at Chatham, Woolwich, and in every part of -Great Britain (not excepting the office of the Hon. Gentleman), might be performed in from one to two hours in each day. He remarked on the expen - ces incurred under heads to which he had not previously alluded, and stated each Department to bear on its face the marks of re dundant numbers, or, if this were not the case, of unnecessary expence. Under these circum stances he would move that a reduction of 25 per cent., or 15,8181., should be made on the grant proposed. To this motion be trusted the House would not hesitate to agree. He had hoped that the salaries of Ministers, and that the whole Civil List, would be reduced to this extent. The salaries of Members of the American Government had been reduced to half what they were for merly, and in his opinion such an example was worthy ..of imitation. _ln reducing the present grant, he would have the Board to make the dis tribution as they should think 'proper, with the hope, that reduction, if made, would not be ef fected at the expence of those who performed the duty, while those who received large salaries were spared. He moved, as an amendment, that the sum - of 27,2531. should be submitted for that of 43,000/. which had been proposed. Mr. R. WARD regretted the necessity he was under of troubling the Committee at some length ; but, after the challenge which had been thrown out to him by the Honourable Gentle man, he found this was unavoidable. He again insisted that the Duke of Wellington, instead of making new appointments, had constantly applied himself to the suppression of all useless oflices. The 67 appointments which he had been stated to to have made, he (Mr. W.) had • succeeded, on a former night, in reducing to eight or ten ; and of these the Honourable Gentleman had him self admitted the appointment of Captain Ag new to be a very proper appointment. The Honourable Gentleman had, on a former night, complained of a discrepancy in the Ordnance Ac counts. lie (Mr. W.) denied the existence of such a discrepancy, and maintained that he was borne out in that denial by a fact admitted by the Honourable Gentleman himself, that of the Ordnance Department being out of debt.— The Honourable Member, in* challenging his correctness, had described him to have as serted that the Board of Ordnance had uniformly paid the most implicit attention to the Reports made by the several Committees of Finance and Inquiry, and pointing out some recommendations which had not been complied with, he supposed he had established his (Mr. W.'s) want of accu racy. lie denied that he had ever stated that the Board of Ordnance had complied with the. Re ports of the Committees of Finance and Inquiry. What he had stated was, that those Reports had not been rejected asa dead letter. He had never said that all the recommendations they contained had been complied with ; but, on the contrary, he had pointed out various instances in which those reports had not been attended to. The Hon. Gentleman complained that one part of what he, had called the staff pay had been brought into the Estimates under the head of " Repairs." He (Mr. W.) had been prepared, if no opposition had been offered to these estimates, to propose that the extra pay of clerks and overseers, in certain cases, should be separated from the expences in curred for materials. The Hon. Member had alluded to the extravagant praise which those con nected with the Ordnance had bestowed on the re ductions effected in thatdepartment since the peace. He denied that any such praise had been bestowed. When a reduction was made of one part of the establishment to half what it had previously been in 1817, some gentlemen in the Opposition had been pleased to say, that the Ordnance Depart ment ought to be taken as a pattern for the other branches of Government. He had quoted this remark, but he had never said that the Ord nance' ought to be taken as a pattern by the other departments of Government. When the Hon. Gentleman taxed him with incorrectness with respect to the measurement of a paltry boat, he felt that he bad a right to retort the charge, and he would be well content that the House should judge from the result of the comparative accuracy of the Hon. Gentleman and himself. On causing the boat which had been alluded to (the Harmony) to be measured, he had fount that it was of 88 or 90 tons. This was rather more than he had previously said, and therefore his statement was correct. This fact the Hon. Gentleman did not know how to get over. But how did he Meet it ? Why, by having recourse to another vessel, and naming the Lord Howe. On the former evening he had heard nothing of the Lord Howe, while he was in the House. When in the lobby, the Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the Lord Howe, to which he replied, that of that vessel he knew nothing, but what they hid differed abOtit was the Harmony. Mr. Hulit wished to offeisa word in expla nation.—(Cries Of " Order !") Mr. R. W.-tan continued. He would readily give way to allow the Hon. Gentleman to . explain, bud in this case there ceuld be no occasion for explanation. Every on knew that it ivas the Harmony of which they had been speaking. The name had rung in, his ears ever since, in conse quence of the harmonious discord which it had produced in that House. The Hon. Gentleman had . now given up the Harmony, and gone to the Lord Howe and if he should meet with a new discomfiture, he supposed he was prepared to go to some other vessel. As the matter stood, he called upon the House to determine which of them had been proved to be most correct. lie had often been puzzled,,uot from the difficulty of answering the Hon. Gentleman's statements ; but looking at human nature in a philosophical point of view, and without meaning any thing disrespectful to the Honourable Gentleman, he had often been at a loss to judge of the frame of the Honourable Gentleman's mind and under standincr, from the manner in which he con- I ducted his opposition. He was disposed to at tribute the conduct pursued by the Honourable Gentleman to three causes. The first of these was the possession of a great share of what Sterne called " honest gullibility." He meant nothing disrespectful when he said this, for Sterne himself had considered the possession of this quality very desirable, and had accordingly said —" Far be it from me not to have my share of gullibility. Of him who has it not, I can only say that it is so much the worse for his own hap piness." If Sterne's hypothesis were well found ed, he cmild not but congratulate the Moth Gen tleman opposite, for he (Mr. Ward) had never met with a man who appeared to be more largely endowed with that enviable quality.—(A laugh.) —A single instance of this " honest gullibility" had been displayed in the Hon. Gentleman's discoveries with regard to the Borough of Queen - borough. The Hon. Gentleman had found out that there were but 17 persons employed by the Ordnance in 1802; whereas the number of Queen borough people employed by the Ordnance at that period amounted to 56. The lion. Member here read to the Committee a letter he had received from Admiral Sir J. Gore, with reference to a statement which had been made by the Hon. Gent. (Mr. Hume) on a former occasion. In that let ter Sr.i J. Gore distinctly denied that he had ever entered into any negotiation with the Store keeper at Sheerness, and expressed considerable indignation that. the Hon. Gentleman should have made use of his name without being possessed of better information. The letter went on to state, that it was true that he (Sir J. Gore) had nine months before been applied to by the Admiralty to ascertain, if there was any house belonging to the Ordnance that would be suitable for the Ad miral. While engrossed in this examination, an old man, whose.name he did not know, had come and said " If you take my -house away from me, I hope you will give me another." Not knowing who the person was, he had given no answer. He had afterwards understood that ha was a Storekeeper, but never since that period had any communication passed between them on the subject. 'The Gallant Admiral added, that as his name had been publicly mentioned, he trusted the whole business would be as publicly explained. Another cause of the Honourable Gentleman's inaccuracies, was that he appeared frequently to labour under con siderable confusion of ideas. Thus he had called magazines floating batteries. To this confusion of ideas he attributed other mistakes, which he particularised. He had stated, that particular officers had: been allowed to retire on full pay, after a service of three or four years. He had no doubt he meant to say, that they had retired on half-pay, but had described them to have retired on whole pay.—He then proceeded to remark upon the observations of the Honoura ble Member, with respect to the Gunpowder Magazines, and asked, if it was worthy of one who wished to be thought a great and wise Re former, to say that it would be better that all the gunpowder magazines should be blown up, than that a few thousands a year should be expended in keeping them in their present state ? But the fact was, that the greatest possible reduction was made, even in this matter. The Noble Duke at the head of the Ordnance had, in the course of the last year, put down five of the floating pow- der magazines, by loading the others in such manner that they could with difficulty keep the powder in a proper state, so that although in consequence of . the motion of the Hon. Gentle man the Return was made out of twelve, yet they were at present actually reduced to seven. The lion. Member had stated that the 11,0001. a year under this head was an exclusive charge, but it was not so, it was included in the Return , , as he could see at once by a reference to them ; but the Hon. Member was too much in the habit of indulging in reveries ; and if he (Mr. W.) did not know that the Hon. Member was inde fatigable in his exertions, he would have sup, posed that his whole time was passed in nothing but a reverie, which was a sort of employment of the fancy without any exertion of the under standing. It might be said of him, with a slight alteration of the words of the poet— " The Member's eye, in a fine phrenzy rolling, Glances from heaven to earth, from oarth to heaven ; And, as imagination bodies forth The form of things unseen, the Member's eye Turns them tcrshape, anti gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name."—(A laugh.) Ire then went on to observe upon the case of Capt. Dickenson, apd entered into a statement of his services ; he added, that he was now 70 years of age, and had been in arduous service 40 years, and therefore whatever might be resolved upon with respect to future superintendants of the shipping, he was sure that the Committee could not have- a wish to reduce the salary of so old and meritorious an . Officer. With respect to the Artillery Establishment, the Hon. Member had stated that it was still a war establishment, although it was under - 8,000 men ; but this was only auother instance of that confusion of mind which -his statements manifeSted. He had also objected to the increase of Clerks. An increase of Clerks had constantly taken place ; but when it ti•as considered how Much the establishment had been enlarged, and the stations multiplied since 1792, it would not appear strange that such an increase had happened. He (Mr. W.) had stated on the former night, the average of the salaries of the clerks-in the Ordnance, depart ment,.which was not incite ,than 226/., and was below the average of salaries in all the other de partments. He -.would ask the Hon. Member, why it was then that he quarrelled with the Ordnance, rather than with the other departments on this account ? He had quarrelled even with the very constitution of the Board, and with the Commissions of Inquiry, because they had not an nihilated it. his wishes were not less extrava gant than that of the character in the play, who exclaims— " Ye Gas, annihilate both space and time, " And make two lovers happy." The salary of the Treasurer was another point which the llon.'Member had dwelt - upon ; he said that salary had been raised 'from 5001. to 1200/., but that was not instantaneously dOne, it had been recommended by a Report of Commis sioners, and another Report complained of the increase not having been made, and it was after that second Report it took place. Ile then re plied to the objection which the Hon. Member had taken to what he called an improvident con-. tract for horses, with Wilful. As that contract had been entered into in 1805, he (Mr. W.) was not accountable for it ; but he was quite certain that if his Right Hon. Friend, the Master of the Mint, who was then in the situation which he had the honour to fill, was present, he would give a satisfactory account of the business, and prove, that instead of a waste of money in this contract, there was a real saving; and he was sure the Commissioners of Military Inquiry had not, in this instance, when they framed their decision, the true evidence before them. lie then went on to. reply to statements made by the lion. Mem ber, in animadverting on his speech of the former night, and explained and defended his arguments on that occasion. He also referred to the case of Mr. Hodgkins, a.clerk, who had been dis missed, and the decision relative to whom the Hon. Member wished the Board to re-consider ; such an interference could never be allowed, there was a regular way of proceeding, and it was open to the Hon. Member to submit a mo tion to the House on the subject. He had now gone through all the objections which had been stated, and trusted that he sufficiently proved to the House that they were neither unsound in point of information, or invalid in argument. Colonel DAVIES supported the statements of his Hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen ;, be denied that the Hon. Gentleman's speech was an answer to them. He had gone much upon the argumenhan ad hominem, and seized upon some desultory expressions not connected with the substance of his statements, while he avoided all close encounter with the facts and arguments to which he was bound to make out a satisfactory reply. He had charged his Hon. Friend too with indulging in reveries, but he (Colonel D.) believed the House to be of opinion that he dealt in solid substantial stuff, and that nothing could be less like " airy nothing" than the statements which he was in the habit of making. It was said that his Hon. Friend had a capacious swallow, but he was convinced that he would make the Ministers. swallow such a pill as they should find very hard of digestion. He then entered into certain details to prove the truth of his Hon. Friend's charges, and complained of the general system of the Ordnance Board as one of useless and extravagant expenditure. Sir U. BURGH observed, that instead of 67 appointments, which were said to have been made by the Duke of Wellington, as Master-Ge neral of the Ordnance, he had made only 13. Mr. MABERLY wished the Iton. Gentlerna sl would turn his attention to the Storekeeper' , Department, before the Barrack and Commis" sariat Estimates were brought before the House, as he was persuaded that a very great saving might be effected by a judicious consolidation. Mr. HomE allowed that he was not competent to vie with the Honourable Gentleman opposite in wit, and eloquence, and poetry ; but stil l thought it unfair that the Hon. Gentleman s hoal(' have dwelt so long on his (Mr. Hume's) bareness of intellect and gullibility. This was, however/ a sufficient proof to him that the Honourable Gen" tleman was wholly unable to answer one of th e statements which he had made ; anti in fac t he had not done so. In 1796 the civil depart ment of the Ordnance at the Tower and Wes t ; minster cost only 18,000/. ; now the vote req uired was 63,0001. After e nt e rin g i n t o a var i e ty details on the subject, he concluded by propos" ing, as an Amendment, a reduction in the ltcs° - lution of 25 per cent.; namely, that was by tr ducing the vote by 15,7501. Sir U. BURGII and Mr. WARD shortly 0 " plained, after which the Committee divided-- For the Amendment Against it __ - • 73 134 -M Majority The next Resolution, moved by Mr. AVAtiv' was 20,162/. 3s. 4d. for the Storekeepers' De partments in the Outports. • Mr. Ilumr. objected to a vari e ty o f th e ofilc u e : in those departments, an d among o th er s t" - Firernaster, the Inspe-ctor of the Powder 'At: nufactory, the Insp e ct or of- Artillery, °— Inspector of the Brass Foundery, the inspec tor and Deputy Inspector of the Carriag i Department, &c. Ile also objected to seve°, offices being held by the same indkiduak .— The Honourable Member went o n t o fi n d fa t : 3 with the establishment at Sheerness which L I : contended was a large and us e l e s s ex p ense to t 1 ' e For instance, a grea t num b er of pe g '" sons had houses on the establishment, though 11 / out of six persons let their h ouses an d res ide" a , Queenborough. In fact, the whole of the She e.- ness establishment ought to he dispensed Besides, several individuals had been detecte"„ l r taking coals and other public stores, but alL e e , inquiry they had been restored to their places? Lis cause they were freemen of Queenborough. " r. was the influence exercised with respect to a Pa ii. denial. class of individuals, and if the Hon. G e fis tlemen opposite wished to relieve those persoo..o from a charge of peculation, he called tw ri them to place the Report of the commissj°"