The Sun. — London, England, 1844-05-04 00:00:00

Jra Jgh! an d and nee* t ye irk the' "AO, re to troc g, esite, efl Dateu would be, the manufacturing capitalists of the country. It was the manufacturing knowledge, ingenuity, and power, which had made England what she was now, and however gal ling it might be to the agriculturist, ilea ever painful it might be to hear about the ignorance of country gentleinen—( Laus t er)—however disagreeable it misia he to him is, be itean-lod in his f- rtune and in his cooncrr bj the oer masufac tater, who had applied his mind to tes wines-, aid h:d acquired millions by his energy, whilst the landowner had been dreamins, away his life—however painful it might b e to h ear all these things, it was net the less true, that to the manufacturing capitalist, and to him alone, was Ow ing the -g greatness and therandeur of this country.—( Hear, b ear.) It was the knowledge and power of that great commu . pity that had raised England above all other' communities.— (Hear, hear.) We should have been mere Nimrods—a petty island in the ocean, instead of governing the world—had not it been for the manufacturing capitalists. Our fleets were on every sea —our flag was floating upon every breeze—but this Was not owing to t h e l azy l an d lords, b ut to the act i ve, energe tic, enterprising, manufacturing capitatists.—( Hear, hear. ) Men wondered and pointed at us, and asked how it was that E ngland, whi c h was b ut a spec k on t h e g l o b e o f t hi s eart h , was the mighty power that held the balance amongst all other B o wers, and influenced every quarter of the civilised world. e had no hesitation in saying that the majority made up on tthe l ate occasion was nohonour to that House.—( Hear, ea r.) How many votes had been given on that side of the uousein consequence of the course pursued by the Hon. Member for Stockport? They said the manufacturers had gone against them, and they would put a torch among them.— (Hear, hear.) It behoved the other side to show that the course they h a d t a k en was t h e r i g h t one, and why, after being elve years in office, why after being kept in darkness for so many years the light a t l as t b ro k e i n upon t h em N ow he ;wanted to know what was the Noble Lord's panacea, and whether it would be worth anything? . It was to prevent the tlabourer from labouring more than ten hours ; what would be low consequence ? Th e consequence wou ld , be an immediate er ..ering of wages—(Cries of " No ")—when H o n. M em b ers • and Y No, no, they should prove - how this "no " will happen, he would then bow down to their opinion. The number of laabourers would re ma i n th e same , t h e d eman d f or wor k ould be' the same, but each individual labourer would be de- PtiVed of a certain portion of his hours, and would thus in reality be a less efficient labourer. When he, therefore, came into the must arsk f et he w ou ld come as a person who, being less efficient, ask, ache could on l y as k, l ess wages. T a k e t h e mann • aetarcr :. he had a large portion of his capital invested in ma dchtlittn.ery and milli ;. that was the larger portion of his pro then Powers; but a smaller portion of it was contained in exertions of a labourer, acting as a labourer. The manu ttatcturer working twelve hours a day produced a certain quan tV, and working ten 'hours he would produce less. But e capital of the manufacturer remained the same. His fixed capital, as he would call it, remained the same ; but his floating Laspsitaln the f orm of wages would differ, and would produce durrUnder these circumstances one of three things would i ti e i n e b , Either prices must rise, or profits upon stock must or Prices wages must fall. Which would take place? tition could not rise, for they had foreign compe mo " ev ery side of them.—( Hear.) At the present me . nt, it was as much as the manufacturer could do to maintains was footing in the foreign market, and, by a mere turn of the scale, he wauld be driven out of one-half of it.— no__," from Mr. Ainsworth.) The Hon. Member said • 1 He wished he Would get up by-and-bye, and state bow it 'would be .‘ NO, no." The Hon. Gentleman should real is take more care how he expressed his opinions, for he had of e lged them al ° l round.—(fal libility Hear hear.fo) themselves,s There wa a class • °' Person s h claimed inr though the Y were the most changeable . of men. In every change they thwere always infallible, and always intolerant ; and, change as ey woula; it never suggested itself to them thst they might , s -a /e been wrong throughout. But he was about to show that " n eof three things must happen—either prices must rise, Profits must diminish, or wages must fall. It was im- Possi ble that prices could rise while they w ere ee „!Posed to suc h f ore i gn competition. There was " Be United States, Germany, Switzerand, and France, and he wanted to know how were the manufacturers of this kingdom, who, within the last few years, had lost some portion of their markets in every quarter of the globe, either in mu lles, Germany, France, ors Switzerland to stand up gains an increase of that competition ? In evi ry case a turn l a., the scale would drive them from the market. In that branch 0 . ! trade for which the constituents of the Hon. Member for wNleffield were celebrated, and in which the people of England ere considered t o b e supreme above all the people of the world, St turn in the scale at this moment would drive them from the market,_( Hear, hear. ) Take America. Am er i ca wou ld „ e° s _TPetewith th em in every market. She had a saga c i o u s po tr"tion, who were possessed of a peculiar knowledge of the er of mac hi nery, and by whom all the changes that had _ti place in ma c hi nery f or t h e l ast th i rty years have been iand who h a d t h erefore su b stituted the power of ma y for handicraft. If they tampered with the trade of 'g d, and wi t h t h e cap i tal employed in labour ever so little, e them take care lest America and France would not outsell . n eto hi the m ar k ets of the world, when they would be obliged i i 'llorne home an d tell the manufacturing labourers that they inter ference._( no More ma r k ets, f or wh i ch they might thank their own erf erence.—( Hear, hear.) He saw those who only looked toi the last operation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He a a s w °ld scountry gentlemen, who exulted that Consols were ts Par.---( Hear, bear.) That was one of the most fatal symp lir he had evor seen of the state of the country.—(Cheers.) ... at did it show It showed this, that so small was the re fn on capital, that it ass advantage to buy in the Three Per tentswas .—(llear, hear.) Go to America, and ask for 3 -rper cent. on capital there.—(Loud laughter.) So sensitive eiT they of the loss of their capital, that even with all the wn before them, which showed that in America the returns if e t g rea t — (Continued laughter)—they were overwhelmed acmes recollection th a t th e y h a d c h ea t e d th em ou t o f cer iT of money.—( Hear, hear.) But that was not the it e i r itio. The question was, whether in this country the re e a pon capital was not exceed i ngly sma ll . H e sa id t h at was vident from the state of the Consols—from the fact that they were "'Laing to lend their money to such bad payers as the tray al.ericans, which showed that there was no adventure so ex resagant—no danger of loss so great—that they were not t rY to undergo , in the hope of enlarging their profits.- 4',!ar., hear. the The consequence was that which he had just tk "cd, that the profits of stock employed in manufactures at rPeesent moment were greatly diminished, and the atts for carrying on commercial enterprise was lessened. _Zits at that point that if they reduced it lower, the conse al nee would be that he would have no more means to engage ‘ ,..e labourer with. Each succeeding year would bring a sue siori of losses, and instead of being a manufacturer who h (b r u ld go on employing labouring persons every year, he would tiLe a less number of labourers in his establishment, because ov ,Yilad foreed him into a condition in which he could not re t' - ",,,,ec• If prices were low, would they cut down the e 4l of him who was least able to protect himself, and whom t-e Y , co idnot protect by a Ten Hours' Bill, namely, the labourer, who cause in side by side with his '"g competitor, who would take less for his ten hours a rs and whom they were now deceiving with the idea that rir ten bters' labour he would get twelve hours' wages ? ‘—e ' " e ar.) Let them not deceive themselves. On him lr ettld fall heavily the weight of the Noble Lord's humanity. as -1 ' h hi e m v w , Ould fall the consequences of . it. For he would be *anti," eui as „ I?Vr, numerous in his kind—e . very . day's say to -r hi mt t e : t i ro as to demand labour, aad the capitalist would a he said to him now, your labour is worth L ; e k e 7.1:!: a e nothing. a t : no more, that you must take, or It was a most important and most awf y u o l u c w on il - l • he addressed himself now to the Right Hon. aer tlem an the Secretai" , of State for the Home Department, every he asked hi With us wh y f ie 4dled with the question ? id e s h re 'Pect for the Bight Hon. g entlemen. he waft,: Unfortunately meddled with this air Every man asked him th e R• a ltjee with him, when he said that it must i s'es (141 1 , 1 g" Hon: Gentleman's sagacious mind that the COP' . clear to evil s which he (Mr. R.) was depicting were the necessary What would would fellow from that interference. He asked him iq thif°°d he could obtain 'in this race of mock humanity— and i s „P ai ,nfill struggl e f or em i nence i n i gnorance ?—( Ch eer s Prepojg in er-) What goad then could he derived from so rar e f,..; e raws a position ( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. R.) had •we tt. ...ea fro m a n y remark upon . the labour of chil statlees..4 oat depended upon a totally distinct set of cireum they w Th ey were not capable of judging for themselves; e , s4 ere subject to the power of others. But the full-grown the land. woman, who had arrived at that age at which shoul d decided they could judge for themselves—why They id , lll e Right Hon. Gentleman interfere in their concerns? He , ere the best - of their own private interests. the had made these j remarks without any feeling of hostility to kti littt;etatt ticanhthetelidni • Gentleman ; but he did entreat of him, before again into this abyss of legislation, to settle with nciples upon which no undertook a with f eat the s.erintion—not to halt between two opinions, and, .wsth ferell vulg thrown overboard altogether the doctrine of Intel:- Wks to Make a mighty fuss about the extent to which it Th;" e d."—( Hear, hear. ) seeolad question having been _put by the SPEAKER, several tiein g elapsed without any Hon. Member rising, and there j ond cries of " Divide," GRAHAM said he was un7iiling that the House sots divide on th t qu f estion until he . had nreviously offered het,: °b4 ervations in a t the s lie addressed to themreenee Hon. and Learned Gentl,7,raan• Ne st s _ by the. peech had Just ' th e that he had rather anticipated that some advocate 'Peeeh - . T en Hours' Bill would • rise to reply to that "-(Hear, hear.) Many of the principles for j isis: :rah ,mth r t e h Nit e pe Ho n. et and . Learned Gentleman contended, he (Sir J. 1 Vositi n ' ad on a former occasion urged upon the House, in to the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire. art o his argument as to the reduction of the 'Ailiin at edoet. ' m anufacturing labour, it was for the advocates of that to reply to it.—(Cheers.) He was extremely un "Plieh" ,to .`efer to the somewhat exaggerated expressions h4-tapoeant,the !seat of debate, had fallen from the lion. and the 'lt Of v entlern ar iN He was sorry to say that, without f il 'llappL a ngllage s e . t h,:t description , . too much exasperation ore, i n -s prevailed on that .cubleet—( Hear, hear)—and there , th e fe eGe9h he was about to make, he I 414 shot w observations w;.; ri the e 'tato from using languacre of an irritating nature. urst place, he agreed with the Yon.. and Learned ,Ttere et rn ax! that a just, wise, and enlightened v;ew of the best t he working classes ought to form the basis of their e s alea 'Ores not for him to look at the motives of Hon. Gen- Ms*net House.speaking generally, believed that titoustthere was great difference - of opinion, ti they were all t ,oecide this matter in that manner which would be " n rucive to this comfort and welfare of the working is nine be it from him (Sir J. Graham) to depreciate (tl tt `Ols e , e ` /al e of the machinery that was now employed 1 1 4. Ito ehu . n .it ry% He fully agrees! with the Hon. Gentleman t ss . fui ti in what he had said of its value and impo 1, hur t , -y agreed in the eulogy he had passed upon the - 01 4 , foa n t r i rig capitalists of this country. He believed they h rs t ; t heir elnldoyment for a large mass of people, that wit - J, at depl oys enterprise and talent would have been left in the tatrirthble condition. And he had not one word to say ' e ta% e Principle laid down by the Hon. and Learned Geo of th at sood the minimum of interference was the greatest sate. minimum this question. But he must be permitted to k at tk .ue House that the argument now brought for -1";:tee star advanced stage of the Bill was an argument much aile ui lt . e d to a motion for a repeal of the existing law than e e k u llis fet e d the . Particular , object which they had proposed tO s qt nei eted night —( Hear, hear.) The principle now h that by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was identical :e4 tete which was before the House in 1833, and which was „7etit s by the wisdom of the Legislature. All the argu .4,,_•.-utch h a d h been urged to-night, were urged upon that V e had g certainly not with greater ability. The pin ti,rtnae„, Lien been most carefully weighed, both by the Go- Itt ;7.guidefl by Mr. Poulett Thomson (tso ordinary autho 111,1:::hehetsienounZoters),.and by the Legislature, and sitar Touch t ot h ad "It had been placed as it now stood. But what had consider was, the nature of the Bill then be. s„,,111) said _se a , and the principle at issue. He ( Sir J. Gra te-7 of iinet r a t . it was the regulation of the labour of Children, end abstinenceat,n p.ersono, in connexion with of p o q (Hear f• T ro h m at i w nt u er t fe h r e eness with the labour f e ttling the . question of thisar. ) description it w p a r s ing n i o p t La hie ible°73; thought h O t r Is ts 4 'lled G en r e stion brought forward by the Hon. Uri k u e beer( morenian."-- Hear, hear.) He did think it would tetion ulootoarnvenient to have taken the discussion of the oonfourtahbeie proposition U e t ;' - e, blis hl ut e h m sei b ° e nii r . for Dorsetaillre."—iCheer. i l Zl 4 h - ee t r h fie f t e r h o e, confine himself to the consideration Of txt r '' t.'heileNrelleof:lnel.e:crtteiofocro•v:thttiihne why, having admitted the t j . s e interference with , adult labour the interfered t%'t flee th e e coPloyZ'ent of labour whist' was not adult? He would House bat td that occurred exi 04 in j 1833.)29 admitted, on all hands, that the practical effect of limiting the •to- tile wealth of - a' - nation Vidi to give every individual full hours of labour of children and young persons to twelve hours ' scope for his-own exertions. The power of the production of would be to limit the working of machinery to that period, a nation was developed by giving the most unlimited freedom He believed that, generally, such had been, practically, the to individual exertions.—( Hear, hear. ) All restrictions im effect of the negsure altogether ; if() doubt there had been ex- posed upon industry impaired its efficieney, and from this it was ception t. A on this subject hit been introduced by the must i.ropt•rly argued that these restrictions, when the wealth late Government, in 1841. That rfili hal been brought. in by of the nation was considered,were most unjust. If they deprived the Right. thin' inrahle Gentleman the Member for Perth, a mai, of turning his industry to the hest account, they in whom he saw io his place, and by Mr. Shell, the Vice- flirted the greatest injury they could upon him. For instance, President of the Board of Trade ; by that Bill it if they prevented a man from taking Dantaic corn, of which was proposed to extend the limitation of young persons he could get twenty quarters for the price he could get fifteen from 18 years of age to 21 years of age, so that if that Bill had in this country, that inflicted a great injury upon him.— passed, no person bet wren the ages of 13 and 21, of either sex, (Hear, hear.) To increase the wealth was not the only object would have been allowed to work in factories for a longer of a Government.—( Hear, hear.) The morel and physical period than twelve hours, and there could be no doubt but tat, welfare of the great body of the people was the true object for in the majority of instances, the practical working of the ex is t- which Gov e r n m en ts were formed. Industry was most pro ing law had been to limit the working of machinery in the ma- ductive when least trammelled by the law. And he wished nufaeturing districts to twelve hours a day. There were, how- ! the House would agree with that, or discuss the monopoly of ever, exceptions, and he believed it had been found possible, in corn, coffee, and other things.—( Hear, hear.) It was only some few instances of competing manufactures by the employ- two or three years ago that the House passed a Bill prohibiting meat of female adult labour, to work the machinery for a longer ! the labour of women in mines, without any opposition.—(Cries time. This was certainly contrary to the intention of the Le- of "No.") An Hon. Member cried "No he believed he stood gislature, and was giving these manufacturers an unfair alone in that opinion ; for his own part, he (Lord Howick) advantage over thei r competitors—an advantage which ! never saw a Bill go through the House with more unanimous was obtained beyond the ordinary power, and in a man- assent. If that measure was right and well-founded there was an tier fatal to the health of the female adults so employed. ' end of the principle that had been said so much about. Now, He had received several delegations from the manufacturers if they were prepared to maintain that principle, if they were himself, and he could state to the Howe positively that several really prepared to carry it out, they must go this length—that of the manufacturers paying the largest. amount of wages were 1 if a man was inclined to sell himself for a slave, he should be ' favourable to the clause limiting the hours of - female labour in I allowed to do so.—( Hear, hear.) He was persuaded, if the factories to twelve hours. The Hon. Gentleman asked, why law allowed it, such bargains would be made ; as he was per continue legislation to interfere with machinery? In the first fectly convinced that in time; of great distress many persons 'place, he had frequently stated to the House that the inter- , would be persuaded by capitalists to go to the colonies in no ference was contrary to principle. He admitted that the de- ; other character, and that would doubtless have been advan parture from the principle led them into greater difficulty ; but I tageous to both parties ; but to sow into society the elements then it must be rememb e r e d, th a t i n l a bour connected with 'of slavery, would far outweigh any good that could machinery, the Legislature had a power to interfere which it be obtained. If any principle had been violated had not in other cases. Upon the more important point, whe- on this subject it was first violated in 1833.—( Hear.) His •ther they were • justified in that interference, he Hon. Friend agreed to this, and that reduced the question to a could not state his opinion more succinctly than in the words small compass ; because the question then was, whether the of the report of Monsieur C. Dupin, in the French Chamber. the measure of 1833 was useful or not ; it was well known it (The Right Hon. Baronet then quoted the words from the was so, and now the Right Hon. Baronet had stated that the pamphlet of M. Dupin, but in so low a tone of voice that it Government were prepared to go still farther, and put an end was impossible to catch more than its import, which we under- to the general principle. In this country the Government stood to be in advocacy of the restriction of machinery labour had been conducted for a long series of years, much upon this to twelve hours.) Since the last discussion he had received a t system. He had acted almost entirely upon the principle that report from Mr. Horner who had inspected several of the • it• was safe to trust to the unaided and undirected efforts. of in most extensive of the factories. In nine factories 697 persons dividuals. But looking at the actual state of society, he thought were on an average employed in each. Of these more than fifty they should see the result of this mistaken policy on the part per cent. were females, and of the females seventy per ceet. of the Government. There were around them alarming proofs were above eighteen years of age. 27it per cent. were that something more was required. . He did not blame the ma married women. It was important that restriction should be nufacturieg classes particularly. There were equal evils placed upon the labour of children and young persons and among other classes. There was much also in the condition of females, but this principle should not be carried to too great an the grea t masses o f the agricultural classes which required the extent or else it would create a greater evil than it pro- I active attention of the House. But among them the danger was posed to remedy. The concluding words of the Right Hon. not so pressing ; for various reasons to which he need net then Baronet were spoken in so:low a tone that they were altogether advert, the danger was not so pressing in these districts as inaudible ifs the gallery. among the manufacturing population. But when he looked at Mr. LABOUCHERE rose amid loud cries of " divide." these immense masses of population, gathered—he might say He said the question before the House was a very plain one— heaped—. together, without any adequate preparations for their whether it was fitting for the House to assent to a restriction physical or moral welfare, and the utter absence of any regu on adult labour which existed in no other country. —( Hear.) lesions for securing them—when he learned the extent of the He felt bound to record his opinion that it was most unwise, abuses which prevailed there, and of the wretchedness that inexpedient, and highly injurious to embark in this course. existed, he thought it would have been well, had Parliament The speech he had just heard only confirmed his former views, earlier interfered, even at the expense of something of the pro and he only regretted that her Majesty's Government had in ductive power of the country—even at the expense of some the first instance introduced a principle so dangerous and inex- sacrifice of its wealth—and have taken some measures to check pedient.—(Hear.) He frankly admitted that he would not him- the vast increase of population in particular districts, which were self have brought forward the motion the Hon. and Learned without a corresponding extension of machinery, or regulations Member for Battened submitted to the House ; but that Hon. for insuring decency, morality, or the blessings of education.— and Learned Member having done so, he felt boUnd to give it (Hear, hear.) He had heard it stated by the most strenuous his most cordial support. The Government had firmly a n d advocates of restriction, that it would have been well if Naha , creditably resisted the proposition of a ten hours' clause, which merit had, at the commencement of the manufacturing system, he thought was fraught with the most imminent danger to the prohibited women and children from working in manufactories most important int eres t s o f t hi s coun t ry . H e h a d b een a t a ll. H e did not s h are that opinion. On the contrary, he unwilling to take any cou rse w hi c h m i g ht i ncrease th e i r , th oug ht th a t th e l a b our o f women and children was ' an difficulty, but he must now say that he entirely advantage, if its abuses were prevented. The Right Hon. agreed with the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, that the Baronet had concurred in that opinion. It was absolutely ne- Government had introduced into legislation a most dangerous, cessary that they should do something to restrain the competi vague, novel, and unprecedented principle.,--( Hear, hear.) tion of labour, which was driving females and young persons to The Right Hon. Gentlem an had endeavoured to make out a an amount of work totally inconsistent with the d ue discharge special case, but in that lie had failed. If we interfered and of their domestic duties. He believed it was absolutely neces restricted the hours with regard to adult females, there was no sary that they should so act. If they did not so prevent it, he sufficient reason why we should not restrict the hours regarding feared that at no distant, day some frightf u l ca t astrop h e wou ld males. Why, if this principle wer e ca rr ied out, they must ex- occur, and he trusted they should no longer go on in a course elude male labour in factories altogether, and stop machinery. of passive helplessness. The Government must take the lead Was factory labour worse than the average of employments ? in this matter. It was a duty incumbent on theme it being He thought not. So far from the factory labour being a worse the duty of Parliament ta point out the necessity. The other species of employment, he thought it was vastly preferable to evening, when the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the others, and there were many favourable circumstances exclu- Treasury argued against the motion of his Noble Friend, that sively connected with it. There wits one fact which struck it would be impossible to apply this principle in consequence of him very forcibly—the immense number of females employed the immense number of trades in which labour would require in factory labour, in the manufacturing districts, and the pre. I interference, he confessed that so far from this being an objec ference these female had for such labour, so much so in tact that tion it only confirmed him in the opinion that such interference females could not be obtained for domestic employment. In was necessary. He therefore rejoiced that this discussion had fact, a woman servant could not be got there.—( Hear, hear.) taken place, as it brought forward more prominently the abso- He thought that was a practical answer to those who talked of lute necessity of looking iato the condition of the people.— the unwholesomeness, and the disagreeableness, and the ( Cheers.) He trusted that this Bill was but the beginning of danger of factory labour.—( Hear, hear.) A very clever a wiser, a bolder, and more manly course of policy than they pamphlet had lately come into his hands, written by Mr. Godby, had hitherto pursued. It was a feeble and hesitating on factory labour in America, and that intelligent writer beginning, but still it was a commencement, be stated that in the factory of the Messrs. Lawrence in New cause in whatever shape the House adopted the Bill, York, there were 7110 persons employed, many of whom were it recognised the principle that the House ought to females, and the hours of labour in this factory were from five impose a limitation of the number of hours during which A.M. until seven Tear., allowing only the intermission of half females ought to labour. He therefore hailed the measure an hour for meals. Now, there was the freest country in the with satisfaction, not that he regarded it as a perfect measure, world with females working from five in the morning until but because he approved of the principle of defining by law a seven at night.—( Hear.) He very much feared that limitation of labour. They could not expect that this measure if they interfered much further with women's labour in fac- would extirpate the evils arising from competition. They tories they would drive • hem into other modes of employment, were too deeply rooted to be remedied by it. All that the less wholesome, and less profitable. If interference could be House could do was to deal with the intensity of the struggle at all sanctioned, it was in protecting little children—there for employment. He believed that the true remedy for the protection might be necessary. He was very much struck evil would be to throw open the field of labour by breaking by the evidence of one of the factory inspectors at Warrington. down the artificial restrictions and barriers which the present He said there were three kinds of employment there—fustian system imposed upon it. He should, therefore, entertaining cutters, factory labourers, and pin-head makers. The last was these views, support the measure, whether in the shape it now an employment of a most revolting description, and he would , stood, or in the shape which he .still hoped it would ultimately not harrow the feelings of Hon. Members, by going into detail I assume. He believed that it would ultimately, if not imme upon it. By the restrictions the Legislature had imposed diately, mitigate the evils which grew out of this intense corn upon the labours of women and children, they were driven into petition of labour, and hold out a hope that by degrees it would this pin-making and fustian cutting, and at these lead to what he thought would be the only complete and effec unwholesome and dangerous employments children con- teal improvement, and that they would shortly be driven by tinned until when ?—until they were of an age at which it to the abolition of those monopolies which, he believed, were the law permitted them to go into factories.—( Hear, hear.) at the bottom of the whole question. He mentioned that as showing how restriction, even when Sir ROBERT PEEL said that it was necessary, in the best intended, had done harm. He was not one of those who first place, clearly to understand what was meant by the said that they should not modify the principle of free labour ; word principles.—( Hear.) '.here certainly were prin but chat he did say was that, when widely departed from, it elides which ought net to be violated by any did more harm than good.—( Hear, hear.) He had never Legislature. They were founded on moral and social feelings. given a vote with greater confidence in the justice of the prin. They were the principles enjoined by religion. They were ciple he was supporting, or with a firmer belief that he was principles which the heart and conscience of every man told supporting the best interests of the working classes, and the him were concurrent with the dictates of justice and humanity, general good of the country at large, than the vote he would and by these principles, as he understood them, legislation that night give in support of the motion of the Hon. and ought to be conducted. There were certain other rules which were occasionally called principles, which were not founded Learned Gentlem an .—( Ch eers. ) Captain ROUS was aga i nst all manner of interference with either upon morali h t e y e earre long eligion,bu which had a bindi ng f orce us labour, and th oug ht t h e G overnment should not have intro. upon legislation, experience and observance o duced the Bill, They had no right to dictate to the mast er facts told them they were rules concurrent with the dictates of manufacturers as to who they should employ, or how long prudence, and therefore ought to be the guides of a Leeisla thieleme, called tu wciuld have they would employ them. Why, if they once sanctioned the d b m u i t ti vi c i d lie t h ha h t e t r h a e t s h e er pr t i h n o c u ip g l h e t s, w a e s re th g e en N er o a b l l r e ul L es or o ( f l principle, it would be extended so that merchants inspectors getting into their counting-houses, and bankers fuiieio would legislation, were determined not by any innate and intuitive have their accounts overhauled by these prying • was another reason why he felt warmly excited upon s u e o n e s e e o o f f fa w , h t what was right, but were determined by the observ- Theres, anc i i le the conclusions of wisdom, drawn from long they rtahl eesratiadi principles,th re t f o i l r d e, that a:l t h a e n y y n e a u e n t t m w e n u ! this subject. It was this :—Having broken through a prin- experience. 4 ciple, they would have to carry out their new-fangled theories was conformablgeenwnei by a whole host of new functionaries. Already . they had new this, that theirihoant ought such police in almost every town, county police, factory inspectors, the general rule to which experiencetli; general t l h eg i rslat t and sub-inspectors, and now they would be compelled to have conform ; and the question in these cases was always this— an enormous addition to the list of their salaried servants. Will the practical good derived from any particular Thus would their expenses increase as they limited the hours enactment, in a particular case, countervail the 'is of labour and diminished the means of me etin g those ex p enses . of that ena ctment ? Now, he contend e d, th a t i t was a evils good The consequence would be pressure bey ond endurance, bank- g eneral rule fo r them to observe, to leave pers ons tojudgefor ruptcy, and the best of their capitalists flying with their money , themselves what was the most profitable mo d e of employing their industry, and their skill, to other lands.—( Hear, hear.) their labour. He thought there was another general ru'e re- In conclusion, he begged leave to say it was ea s y to be free commended, not merel y b y reli gion , but by the strong dictates with other people's money—( Hear, hear)—easy to make them- of prudence and experience, namely, that they should leave se lves popular at other people's expense.—(Hear, hear.) He parents to judge what was the best mode both of educating s h o uld, therefore, support the amendment of the Hon. and and employi g their children. That was a rule which he ap- Leareed Member for Bath, and he only wished he had gone to prehended they must respect. They might be convinced of the extent of ;Sieving that the Bill be proceeded with that day the advantage of the rich man sending his son to school—that six months. it was very wrong he should be allowed to waste his ti me Mr. S. CRAWFORD said it appeared to him that many without receiving at least the rudiments of science and learn- Hon. Members were too apt to forget that the operatives of ing. Then why not pass a law compelling the rich man to this country were not free agents, and that they were not in a educate his son ? They did not legislate, not because they did condition to protect themselves.—( Hear, hear.) Such was not believe that legislation might improve the condition of the the helpless condition both of the working man and the working child, but because they thought it better that the law should woman, and, therefore, it was the duty of the Legislature to respect the great principles of liberty, and trust to the parents step in, the same as it had before stepped in, to shield those for the education and control over the child. He agreed that who were not able to protect themselves. The cause of the the state of the working classes was unsatisfactory. He ad present state of things was to be found in this, that the labour mitted that the Legislature had not sufficiently attended to market was overcharged, The present Bill before the House their moral condition. He admitted that the accumulation would materially diminish this evil ; and if it were for this of wealth was not the only subject for the consideration of the alone, he should hold it to be a good and useful measure. The Legislature. He admitted that the moral strength and power Horse, also, in considering this question, ought to bear in mind of the country did not depend entirely upon its wealth. But that the poor man had lost his c l a i m , hi s ves t e d r i g ht, t o s ue- he thought he must always ask himself this question. When cour in the hour of trouble by the poor-law, and this without you begin legislation nothing is easier than to lay down general regaining his hold upon the land, so that he never would rules ; but he would ask, would their intermeddling and inter b: in a condition to maintain his own rights or' ference with the rights and liberties of the people be likely to P ; osttion or to make a good fight with his em- conduce, no t mere ly t o th e i r wea lth, but to their social comfort ployers. was said that wages would fall if and happiness? He admitted that the social happiness and a Bill restricting the hours of labour passed that comforts of the people ought to be regarded. Loom ing at the House. He (Mr. Crawford). had always understood that manufacturing population, and seeing that they had no means wages were regulated by supply and demand. That had hi- of amusement, no means of relaxation—seeing that what once therto always been the argument there. He would ask then were villages were become immense towns, and were yet sub of the manufacturer's, if they would enter into an engagement jeet merely to the same discipline as they possessed when they that wages should hereafter continue as now if there was no in- were mere villages ; when he saw spaces overcrowded, yet terference with the hours of labour, and if they would not con- with no portion of that space appropriated to amusement and sent to do that, how could they assert that wages would fall ? recreation ; that they had nothing to divert them from con- Under siren eireumstances he did feel that both: humanity and slant labour except indulgence in sensual habits, he thought justice demanded that protection should be extended to the the Legislature might, w ith grea t ad van t age , apply the public working *Awes. The lion, erg! Learned M e mb e r (M r . Roe- wealth to the means of promoting the recreations and amuse buck) had said, if they really wished to serve the working menus of the people. That would be a perfectly legitimate in classes—if they were sincere in their desire le alleviate their terference on the part of the Government. But that sufferings—let there be invested with power to come into that was a perfectly different question from the present. House and legislate for themselves. (Mr. Crawford) —( Hear.) For he must ask himself, should he improve heartily echoed that sentiment ; and be would add; that if it their moral condition, should be to elevate them in the social were carried out into practice, he had Lot a doubt on his own smile, if, by any enactment, he controlled their own applica mind that the Bill of the Noble Lord ( Ashley) would instan. tion to their labour? He conceded to the Noble Lord, if he asked taneously pass. For these reasons he should support the Bill him whether he should 'prefer that a child should work ten of that Noble Lord, and oppose the motion of the Hon. and hours instead of twelve, he would tell the Noble Lord at once Learned Member for Bath, and in doing this he was satisfied that he should infinitely prefer his working ten. If the Noble he should he acting in perfect accordance with the feelings and Lord asked him whether he should wish to see mothers work wishes of those whom he had the honour to represent in that ing eight hours a day instead of ten, and able to devote some House, portion of their time to attendance to domestic cares and the Mr. ROSS (Belfast) said the delusion which had prevailed superintendence of their families, he would tell the Noble / of j labour, b o theiru and pr e se the n t increased ; hut attendance after ha t) , i n n cy their ad d e o m t a s; upon this subject amongst the work-people o f the town he had Lord that he p erfectl y admitted he should prefer the shorter state the honour to represent, had now passed away. The otors per had not left the matter to their overseers, but had g m one amongsttic diop their work-people in person, and talked the matter over fairly admission, did it necessarily follow- that it would be for the with them. He had eitpledeed the whole matter to them, and advantage of that woman to say to her that the should not the consequence was, that whilst the seen had declared that they work more than ten hours a day, and preseribe to her by en should beglad to have more time to themselves, they had ex- actment, the exact mode in whi c h s h e s h ould dispose of her pressed their conviction that a limitation of hours must lead (Si labour ? It was true, they might apply the principle in the case a reductions of wages, and to this they were not prepared to submit, of factories i but the Noble Lord opposite rejoiced in this They - wished things to remain as they were, and he therefore felt limited appli ation _of the principle, because he saw that it it his duty to (WOW the Bill of the Nobl e Lord the Member for must he much further extended, He (Sir Robert Dorset shire. Peel) said the ether night that there were count,. Lord HOWICK said he did not rise to diseeee the ten or less trade s and occu p ations im p os i n g heavier burdens tweleeshonr question ; in common fairness to the feloble Loyd upon the labourer than the work in mills and factori es re (Ashley) that should be deferred until the time arrived fogsimposP4 liipt4i fectory . labourers. If the Nobl e L or d' s pr i n . taking his amendment into consideration. The Hon. and eipic were gogO, and eeuid he g eted ? the N o bl e L or d Learned Member for Batt) had nrsad arguments which, though ought to extend his interference to thero also. He (Sir R. specious' he could easily sheer he he girdle'. But Peel), therefore , s a i d, beware how the y a pplied it too precipiS he would refrain from doing so at that meneent, ensi Wets" to factory labour, because, if they did so, they must, at online himself strictly to the questlote before the Hoese, the game tier, rate yaf t ot tY giye a permission to restrictions H e w as erjeloes to know how the Right Hon. Baronet opposite en other kiricle o, labourmorronerO4 au Havrel)4ond-their would reconcile his eppesitien with th e argument wh i ch he control. lend hew labour he 'l_ Sir ft: Peel) Met ? — The Noble used detips, because in that debate Lord wished them In go on tceeefeed their prineiPle beicrect the p r i ce d gs being against all principle. Right t u h s o edin th e ff H o no.o sßaronet e tat objected e to the aHaendroept of his twenty kinds of labour to which it might be apfdiedain tfie two Noble Now it had more hisedred ethers to which it ought to be applied.: *The : sals'le' irsetery 4 24 ( Howick) that he would have taken the 1 ord sal the prspr4 eaet.irg oplv Showed him the Oeatef c oec ou ti rs r e re h d e tp h it h d done, namely, that of stating that his measure necessity for Parliament to act poi ;lily ethitrolithg was a violatiod of princoplis as Well as tisat i•he - Noble Lord. labour, but all other kinds of labour. •He (Sir R. Peel) said He must confess that he was unprepared for sueh AtateN t 4.4 that waginnossibie. He said, that thon•4ll they might apply it from llVMster of the Crown. Were they, he would ask, to be to'gregt Atiirldirtii`s and ',lar g e i t vors,.s 00i told yet ke s edeieed to pass the measure? N o .v what was under co n tr o l, yet, to 0116 heweeetogs) 'to estorld)i:ap understood a genera. 4 pearesiele; It was come conclusion o f any this, an and by y tailor, who worked his hundreds of men for 15' belies drawn from a multitude of facts, upon which vies leueded what a day, to go to the room of the sempstress, who worked her fu lii r o th n e . himself. e t l h f. e G u 'o e v e e o i n n was wggiljered the wise mode of legislation. - three or Howick) was prepatve4 ceur i e ma;ce for hours e, day—if they - were about to establish a s stem of irt' viduai logo ~ ':^.. #"il idered that it involved the violation of no sound prisecepi e of i d' 'd • ment measure than the It t9 igli ge t ie ct7 what was the principle which it was said had • segsreastaus e • ._ . . in di ual tyrennv. Seme good might be produced by effect ing. a reduetioa labour from sixteen hours to twelve • but in been violateal Nipl.ll.(l :t ! ,t t e q, in language far better than the end they•: ••: es namely, in wrgris of the author of li h ors own, would entiredv'eningelhe Cliarietei of the Eng the " Wealth of Nations . • " " The its eijty f v s people. They would fuin4 them to' depend entirely upon is P P e ery sssan the Government, aid they would r then "have indeed t support an labour ;it is sacred and inviolate. The property an army of domestic and sob t ,d o ,, ; i ) :: gog m agi lies the strength and dexterity of his hands ; protection 2 gairit -.slunepegtors • inspec ors, ar the 9 . n_l. afieh interference and tyranny would be 4 I f any erne interfere Vith ie it je a :violation . of every just that it would become • - ' • • e ? " aereed that the prceic ee was just so odious to the whole mass of society, and right prinem • i • re: 14, e that it would be ins •bi Th en one, and one that could not - be pervertee. Men could fudge the exc t' for poss. e. en, when were they to make .ep t e ns, cif i. hat thigh was e general rule, hey were for themselves better than any Governmeet, as to the employ- bound not merely to g er gi g e r es he e ta y Inept of their labour and capital, and the wisest . thing to lead to twelve hours, but ` Pine? Of limithig tnelpotAir whether they would by doing so really THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 4, 1844. `promote the iO'cial . eharcter and happinesS of the people ? He would admit thiit it might be a good thing to limit the hours of factory labour. But there were other trades, such as fustian cutting and pin-heading. If he was not to restrict them, then it was perfectly open to him to consider whether the ad vantage gained by interference in particular instances, would countervail the disadvantage of giving a premium and en couragement to employments that were still more unhealthy. Let him in that case suppose they interfered with those em ployed to render their condition better, would they be adding to their comforts?—(Hear, hear.) His object and desire to promote their happiness would be countervailed by his inter terence, and therefore he was bound to consider whether a de parture from the general rule was one which wisdom and expe rience sanctioned ; and if it was proved to him that an excep tion to the rule would increase the moral comforts of the peo ple, he thought such exception would be justified ; but they must show him it would have this effect.—( Hear, hear.) Then with regard to the Ten Hours' Bill, he admitted that if he took a narrow and limited view of it, it would in certain times and in certain localities, have a good effect ; but would they com pel other nations to follow their example, and if they did not, what would be the consequence?—(Hear, hear.) Why, was it possible to suppose that persons whose labour was restricted would receive the wages of more lengthened employment?— ( Hear, hear.) Was it not common sense, that if they re duced the time from ten to twelve hours, the wages would be reduced in proportion ? Suppose that by this measure they stimulated the manufactures of other nations—of France and the United States; suppose they raised up great manufacturing establishments in those countries and by that means diminished the power of employing labour at home ; suppose such a mea sure could take away that which constituted the independence, the moral character of the labourers (Hear, hear.)-- namely, the desire to earn a subsistence by hon - est and inde pendent labour ; suppose it drove them to the workhouse— ( Hear, hear)—suppose the means of employment failed, by being admitted into a third market, in consequence of others working longer, with a greater command of the raw material —(Hear, hear)—suppose they diminished the means of employment and lessened the power of the individual to earn his subsistence by honest industry—did he then promote the moral character or social comforts of the people ?—( Loud cheers.) He had no doubt about their intentions.—(Hear, hear.) He admitted the general principle, that their object ought not to be to increase wealth, but to improve the moral character of the people ; but if he was able to show that, by their unwise legislation—by supplying the place of parental authority—(Cheers) —by forcing morality on the people by law—(Loud cheers)—he only showed they were running the hazard of defeating their own objects, and of diminishing the physical comforts and lowering the moral character of the people. The Noble Lord opposite said the time was come for inter ference.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lcrd seemed to him to be more desirous of making a justification of his vote in favour of the ten hours' clause than of establishing the principle of interference as 'one which ought to govern the legislation of the country.—( Hear, hear.) He agreed with the Noble Lord in the opinion that it would be desirable to increase the volun tary amusements of the people, but when the Noble Lord said that the Government ought to interfere in all trades, it would be better if, instead of dealing in generalities—(Hear, hear) —and coming down full of them, after reading Adam Smith— (Cheers and laughter)—he told them in what particular mode this was to be effected.—( Hear, hear.) Lord HOWICK—I would increase the sphere of employ ment.—(Cheers. ) Sir R. PEEL—But the Noble Lord said more. He said he rejoiced in the limitation of the hours of labour in factories, because he said it must then be: extended further. He said that the masters ought not to be allowed to make money out of the industry of the people, and he would therefore compel them to work their labourers less. The Noble Lord would introduce this into every employment—( Hear, hear)—to pro mote, as he said, the morals of the people. The principles which the Noble Lord held would lead to a compulsory attendance at Church.--(Loud cheers.) The doctrine of the Noble Lord would lead to an inquisition in every employment throughout the country.--( Hear, hear, and cheers.) The principle that shey were not to content themselves with the accumulation of wealth, but were to watch over the morals of the people would justify any former proposition of former times—there was no la.v which would net be justified by such a principle.—(" Hear, [ hear," from Lord Howick.) Hear ! hear !—(Cheers.) He wanted to know how they were to carry out such a principle as that proposed into every trade.—c Hear, hear, and cheers.) That which constitutes the morality of the people was their feeling of independence—(Hear, hear)—their sense of honour —( Hear, hear)—their hatred of oppression.--( Hear, hear.) This had grown up with 'perfect independence and freedom of ' action, and if they attempted to substitute legislative enactments for that freedom of action, it would change the whole character of the people.—( Hear, hear.) There vt as one point with regard to which he thought they might interfere with parental autho rity—that was the case of education.—( Hear, hear.) He thought they would be justified in interfering at least with the instruction of children employed in factories. He thought they were entitled to give the elements of instruction to children employed in factories, and that be cause the labour there was excessive , and they had the means of enforcing it in the case of those children. He doubted whether it would be wise to interfere in other cases, but where 200 or 300 were brought together, and where they had an op portunity of giving them instruction, he thought they were justified in interfering.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to women he was quite aware that the law made a distinction in their case. 1 here were circumstances with regard to the female sex which rendered it desirable that their labou r s h ou ld:b e re :LUC; so high was the pri nc i p l e of non-inter that it was said they oug h t not to inter ferefsetrreicn re stricted. with labour But in this case, where the parties determined for themselves what should be the nature of their occupation. He con fessed that a departure from the great principle of non-inter ference he acquiesced in with great doubt and hesitation. They curtailed the hours of labour in cases of females to twelve hours ; but this arose from the effect of the law, which they passed, limiting the hours of labour of children. Men could not work alone in cotton factories. They were anxious to work, but it was impossible for them to do so long, as the em ployment of children was restricted ; they would work 15 hours a day, but could not do so, because the children were prevented from working. The consequence w as , that women were employed as a sustitute for children; but that was in consequence of the law which they had made on the subject.— ( Hear, hear. ) They imposed upon the master the necessity of employing females, and they gave inducements to the females to labour which they would not have if not for their enact • merits. Now that was an argument against their interference even with the labour of children.—( Hear, hear.) But he was inclined to think the reports of the Factory Inspectors showed that the evils of legislation had been less than usual in these cases ; but he thought the mischief of interfe rence should be limited to these cases. Few mills worked more than twelve hours, and all that his Right Hon. Friend proposed was to prevent women from working more than twelve hours. The master-manufacturers were not ad verse to that.—( Hear, hear.) The great body of them were in favour of it. The factory inspectors were in favour of it. It was an exception from what ought to be the general rule, and the advantages of it in certain cases would be great ; but he thought it was an exception, and almost the only one, and it grew out .of their former legislation. These were the reasons which induced him to give the proposition his full and cordial support. He regretted that the Noble Lord had anticipated the discussion, which would more properly arise when the proposition of the Noble Lord came before the House ; but believing that the principle of the Noble Lord, if carried out, would diminish the comforts of the people and impair their moral character, and thinking that it was due to the respect and integrity of the Noble Lord, and to the just weight which generally attached to his opinions, he was desirous of not delaying in giving, perhaps, an impolitic, but at any rate a sincere reply to the arguments which he brought forward.—( Cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down reminded him of a speech made by Mr. d G sv e h n i t c l h em w a a n y a h g e a s in h s o t ul i d us v N ot o e b . — le Wyndham, who talked for some time on one side of a question and then on the other, and at last turned round to a friend who n t t i l ie hi ll %a h n t d H a o sk n e . laughter and cheers.) . He thought that some of the arguments u sa s t ed be b h y i (Lord Howick) would be spared Übe kept before his mind the vote which he was prepar e d • to give.—( Hear, hear.) He could not see how the Right Hon. Gentleman could k vote.—(Much u Friend e h sp•a as he did in favour of non-interference with labour, and still vote for a "new principle which interfered with labour, and even arrult labour. If the Right Hon. Gentleman meant to vote not only with th e H on. and Learned Member for Bath, but, if, having succeeded by a majority, he gave notice of a motion to repeal the Act o f 1833 , then he could understand all the former part of the speech. The arguments of the Right Hon. Gen tleman were very eloquent for the purpose of shaking the Act of 1833, but he (Lord J. Russell) did not agree in the conclu sion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. But he did not see how the Right Hon. Gentleman could reproach his Noble Friend, because he thought it was time to interfere with labour, and even parental care, when he himself interfered with the labour and industry of the country. The Rig ht Hon. Gentleman asked his Noble Fri en d w h ether he was in favour of a law which would compel attendance at church. He (Lord John Russell) thought he knew of an interference proposed, not by his Noble Friend, but by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, in the course of last year inteference which could not be carried into effect without violatiug liberty of conscience, and which would place the education of the whole of the factory children under the Bishops and clergy of the Established Church.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman said if they interfered in this case, how could they carry their in terference imo those trades, with regard to which the labour was more irksome and the confinement more unwhole somelban it was with regard to factory labour. In the first place, he thought there was nothing to show that the Act of 1833 had been mischievous, he thought it was beneficial, and till lately it was thought to be of advantage to the working_ classes and their children. He had seen two arguments against the proposition of his Noble Friend (Lord Ashley). The first was that they ought nut to interfere with labour at all. The second was, that their interference had been so very useful that everything they wished had been effected. With regard to those employments to which the Bight Hon. Gentleman alluded, the " fustian-cutters," and " pin -makers," and with w hi c h 'hey had not interfered by Acts of Parliament, the hours of labour were more protracted ; while in those cases which they had regulated by Act of Parliament, they found, con currently with sufficient wages, wholesome employment. Why that was not an instance to quote as conclusive again s t interference by Act of Parliament. That was not an instance to show how injurious all interference was. But in the next place, he said he limited interference in this case —as all legislation was limited—by the principle that you might interfere where more good than harm was effected by such interference.— ( Hear hear.) He thought that the Secretary of State had taken that principle that night. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that they naturally interfered in factories —that they were large establishments, where the inspectors could enter and thake their investigations sithout any exercise of tyranny —without any interference with the professional b usin e ss • ; whereas there were some employments in which it was im possible to interfere without inconvenience and without great tyranny, arid, in short, without much greater evil than hoed being produced. What was their ptirigiplp of Hr mina law Tfley tranoportell • orsne, of Sent him to pri son , b ecause he had stolen a oaf. 'Why, there were persons who committed acts of ingiatitUde, and who brought their benefactors to an untimely grave by their persecutions and ill eo n d.. 4, and lor were far more A'n • pock' 1112 ' 11 rho stole'thp Vat - ye( the het proceed ffr iaw to nueis t 'i trim as they did 'the 'other ; d l'R! ii,t , .cause it they flttcfp;Pts..pl iniefiv.erice, and syo i , nreugh'ail th e ft - ansae:. floes 'of 'priVte they 1,4 • Gcl more more real Cril'iiriality—theh interference would do more harm than goOd ; because, in the other case they could easel ha stole th - i tt aint 9;9. f i nger to the man IV , " an overt act. Whereas, if they went 11, 1? tln.. relations 61' pfivitelifil, tho4h would find more ot con deer, yet their interference wold iiFslF l y th:p !'t=ae el an d bar : tri`Oy,of o'4o Ilfe, 00 6e prerin i ctive of greater evil.—( H ear , 14. ) ' 'Orne principle they should apply in this case. Whenever he thought he could see that he would do Food then he would interfere t).t wnen her diet out •oen tiat good wouldresuit fr(Ytu interference then !, le` `could Stop.—( Hear, hear. ) The same rules which were adopted with regard to criminal legis!ation, he would apply to the present we• 7 T.1 the 183:,, the first questiow was, whether they would iiteeforo at all , Looking back to that' period, he thatight lie }fad then said that Govern- Merit were quite agreed . as to the appointment of a Commissic;n to investigate the subject. That Coforuis4on reporte d certain propositiorit, which, in the Bill Wirieli'.was then passed' oh the subject, were' carried much farther. • Among other things, they advii e d the Gov ern m e nt not to deterrad b y , tie: saying that the thin 7 i7as impraLticable anti 196pil)le,- bte-Fan4e it . wav tlie'eustorn ti ' Tel;Plt tiMse''WOr'4 to whatever was considered in convenient to mcfip parties, and " "--- - - to usual custom. Now, what was the statement of that Commission with regard to the employment of young children ?—what faults did they observe ? First, the common, general deterioration of the physical constitution, and the production of general disease ; secondly, the exclusion from the means of obtaining education, moral and religious, or the means of enabling them to profit by elementary instruction, by reason of the excessive fatigue they underwent in the factories during the day. Those were two reasons which appeared to him (Lord J. Russell) sufficient for interference. They were not reasons founded upon an economical question of the pro duction of wealth—but one was founded on the physical evils produced to the persons employed; the other upon the priva tion of the means of education and moral and religious in struction. He (Lord J. Russell) said both those questions—. the physical deterioration of the people of this country, and their moral and religious education—were questions in which the State had an interest, and the State having seen that it could interfere in that instance with advantage, a law had been proposed on the subject by the then Government, and that law had been carried—he forgot by what divisions—but at all evelits by the general assent of Parliament. He believed that that law had produced good and useful effects in its operation ; and when tie saw such principles accompanied by such results in experience and in practice he did refuse his consent to the general principle of non-interference, to the principle that they were never to intermeddle, and that they were only doing harm by attempting to control the natural authority of parents over their children, and the freedom of adults in the disposal of their labour. He said that when a sound principle showed in practice good results, he would rather proceed than be de. terred from proceeding. With regard to the question of the in troduction of adult labour, he owned he did not think the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of Stale for the Home Department had that night made a greater advance in showing reasons for the introduction of that part of the Bill than he had an a former occasion. He (Lord John Russell) bad already said that he had certainly heard as much as made him believe more strongly on that point, that the best course would have been to have introduced a Bill which did not apply to the labour of persons who were more than eighteen or twenty-one years of age. He thought that twenty-one, as in the Bill of 1841, would have been the better limit, and with that proposal there should be the proposal of the Noble Lord the Member for Dursetshire, to limit the time of labour, first to eleven hours, end next to ten. That would have been a better principle than that of immediate interference with adult labour. Let them recollect there were two principles in the present Bill—one was inter ference with the control of a parent over his child ; the other was interference with the :rule 'which gave to every adult per son the free power to choose his own occupation, to employ hi s labour in the manner he chose. Now, he thought it would have been better to have only interfered with one of those principles, and to have left the other as beyond the scope of legislation. As the evil they proposed to remedy was hardly worth interference by legislation, seeing that the Right Hon. Gentleman stated that that evil had been produced by the le gislation regarding children, that in the mills where they em ploy young people but twelve hours, they would not be worked beyond that time, and that that evil might be remedied by this Bill, he (Lord John Russell) owned that he thought the House, having already assented to the principle, there would be a far greater evil in now refusing its assent to the proposition of the Noble Lord, than in rejecting the proposal of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath ; therefore, he (Lord John Russell) agreed with the Government to-night. At the same time, with regard to the proposal of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, he must say the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had not gone very deeply into the argument. He had ranked all those who had voted for the proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire in one class—those belonging to. the other side of the House, who, he said, were much annoyed by the Hon. Member for Stockport going into the agricultural districts, and those on that side of the House who were much dis appointed at finding themselves in the cold regions of Opposi tion, and would gladly seize an opportunity to embarrass Ministers.—( Hear, hear.) Why, the Hon. and Learned Member had better not have interfered in that matter. If he could give a good reason for showing that that vote was wrong, or that adult labour should be free, let him use his arguments to convince them of that; but that ho should set himself up as containing the whole of the wisdom of the House, and as supposing that there could be no purity of motive except in his possession—( Hear, hear)—he (Lord John Russell) really thought, without taking any pains to vindicate himself or those who voted with him, that it was taking a station which he believed the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was hardly entitled to.—(Hear, and cheers.) They might have been exceedingly mistaken in voting for the Noble Lord's proposition. At the same time what he had heard since had net induced him to think they were so far wrong; and particularly as it was only a few nights ago that he had heard the Hon. Mem ber for Stockport declare that the time at present which was given to labour in factories was unreasonable.---(Hear, hear.) Why, surely if the time that was employed was unreasonable, there was nothing so far wrong or irrational in his Noble Friend at tempting to alter that unreasonable time ? Then, it was said, and he (Lord J. Russell) had heard manufacturers de clare the same thing, that it was their opinion that if the corn-laws were totally repealed, the consequence would be that labouring persons would declare they would not remain in factories longer than for ten hours a day. Why, if that was the case, those ten hours' labour would only produce" the same quantity of manufactured articles which would be pro duced if the Noble Lord's proposal took place. And they stated that increased demand for the articles, and consequent enhancement of the price, would take place under that state of things. Without going the whole length of that proposi tion, he (Lord J. Russell) took it, that a great altera tion of the corn-laws, by which a larger quantity of food would be introduced into the country, would promote the welfare of the manufacturing classes, as well as the general prosperity of the country. That was his opinion, but he owned he thought that if they were entirely to take away the corn-laws, it was doubtful that those conse quences would follow, and that there would be an immediate reduction to ten hours' labour. He much doubted whether the anxiety of parents to send their children to obtain more wages would not in many cases lead to a greater employment than now took place. At all events, having those opinions, he did not think that his Noble Friend was making a proposi tion extremely injurious to the country in proposing a Ten Hours' Bill. He (Lord John Russell) had not meant to have entered upon this subject at all. The question, as stated by his Noble Friend, was rather an abstract question, and the reply of the Right Hon. Gentleman was rather to the abstract parts of that question. But at the same time it was extremely difficult to enter upon that abstract discussion, without alluding to those practical propositions which had been made to the House. He should content himself, then, with declaring that he could not vote with the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Roebuck), and that he thought the best law that could be made upon this subject would be one confining interference to persons under twenty-one years of age working ten hours a day. Mr. WARD thought he was perfectly right in giving notice of his intention to divide on the 32d clause, which contempla-ed the interference he so much dreaded.' He agreed with the Noble Lord the Member for London, that when he interfered he should like to see Isis way. He (Mr. Ward) would like very much to see his way, but that was a thing he could not do if he followed the Noble Lord, nor did he believe that the Noble Lord himself clearly saw his way.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh. ) He (Mr. Ward) could not see any good result that would fol low from those new principles laid down by his Hon. Friend near him. Although they might make out a case to a certain extent for protecting children—and in granting that he granted a great deal—yet he was not sure that in the Act of 1833 it was all plain sailing. They had ascertained, from the reports of the inspectors, that the first operation of that Act was to drive 10,000 children from good to worse employment—from the factories to the coal mines—and many of the statements on which that mea sure was founded had been since ascertained to be exaggerated. He could not but feel surprised that the Noble Lord, and those who supported him, so loquacious out of the House, were so silent in it, after the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath.—( Hear, hear.) Some of the charges of the Noble Lord had recently been proved to be utterly unfounded. He held in his hand a paper containing the results of inquiries as to no less than 412 of the principal factories in this country. t, worked there in we re some only factories. l, 000 ma r Nowr i married m The Noble Lord had stated that out of 61,000 f ema l es w h o were e in u sl fa i co and factori e s, s out of 10,000 married fem a l es i nc l u d e d i n this statement, there were 5,000 husband s w h o were employed in the same women nmployed whose h factories as their wives; 3,400 more were employed in other branches of manufacture all connected with factories, and all were contributing their share towards the support of their families. Well, then, the Noble Lord talked of ill health arising from constant standing, privation of pure air, and other causes ; but it might be shown that this argument would apply equally to other branches of industry. He spoke of accidents. Why this paper proved that the accidents arising out of faotory labour were beyond all comparison fewer than those which oc curred in any other employment.. He said that the married women were preferred, not because the labour was more suited to them, or because they would work for the least wages, but because they were more attentive and docile than unmarried females, and thus, he said, the virtues of the female were made the means of her injury. The mistake was, that the Noble Lord said they bad a choice. It was his peculiar error that the matter depended on that House.—( Hear, hear.) In no branch of industry was female labour excluded. In agricultural pur suits, and in every other branch of industry, women were com pelled to do something for the support of their families ; and he declared it to be his conscientious belief, that the women and young people employed in factories were infinitely better off, as regarded wages, and morals, and comfort, than almost any other class.--( Hear, hear,) A gentleman who had recently visited the faetory of Mr. Ashton, expressed his as t on i s h ment on leaving it, th a t t h e N o bl e Lord should wish to interfere with such a system. He had never listened to a speech • h wit more curiosity than h e h a d f e l t on hearing that of the Noble Lord, the Member for Sunderland. He had thought that if the matter could be made intelligible, it would be made so by that Noble Lord. But he seemed to him only to have made darker that which was dark enough before.—(Hear, hear.) He c ould not possibly comprehend the grounds on which they were to interfere with the present system. The working men had been asked if they would chance it, The heads of families were too prudent hg hoped to do that. No man could enswer for the result of adopting the Noble Lord's proposal. That education and religion had not been properly attended to, and that efforts should be made to secure a better system of drainage and police, they all admitted; but the only question was, whether it was certain that they would improve the condition of the working man by restricting the hours of labour. It seemed to him that this was the mos t , singular, cruel, and unwise experiment, which had ever sug gested itself to the minds of practical legislator's.—(Hear, hear.) Even document; 9 4 - i whieli the Noble Lord had relied did not bear ont hie views. The Noble Lord had quoted, on se' eral occasions, the evidence of Mr. Horner. The Him. Member then quoted a reprint of Mr. Horner:, who said that he had visited a great number of fec.teriee within the le st four years, and ho considered it his duty t ( ! say that the stetMentS of oppression and ill health 'were• greatly exeggee rated, The mass of persons employed in factories were well clothed, well fed, and healthy, lie had voted with the Noble Lord last year aneiaet the employment of women in mines, because i', et e wag it gu.eetion of morality ; b ut b ecause h e Ihcetins iteteeference in bite ease would b e a tt en d e d w i t h in preeks results, he eheuld give it his decided opposition. Lord ASHLEY said that an Han. Member had made so direct a challepge to him that it was indispensably necessary fer him to. take up the time of the House with some observa tions. He would not now travel into the pert of the question which he had already discussed twins the 14th of test month. He hoped that in the fee t observations which he had to make, he elmeld slut 4 provoked to . imitate the language which had hceil tig4 towards him. He thought the question was too im pel-tent, tee mighty, to . be interrupted by poor and miserabl e Beret:so:stifles. In referring to the authorities produced before. the - Committee of the House of Commons iOC3F, he found it stated, without contradiction ; thet the eseployment of women in the factories lees sleieitoented to health, and often destructive of soorels, • IC Vie gale Lord then read extracts from the evi denee taken before the Committee, but in a. tone se re :id and indistinct that it was impossible to for e eve elm.) fie had had communications with t:„.. iienreeetiti*brth, and the reply of the.. e eetleieass was sot bf a nature to satisfy him that hi s state rts;:fitai ivere - ereoneous. • Its a further correspondence ,pith Mr. Ashworth, he stated that, upon ell inquiries, he had fot.nd that his former eteteneenss were borne out. Upon the most eareiui examinatien that .he could give to all the statemeets, Written and veibal; which had been made te e had _ ar rived at the conclusion thee his repreesitaKieVe n ti 4 li ctl , 4e hid bete encle.stated'ent,ho 019' hve.;t4aced." t;;. *bleb helm!' nlede - eeekiecting th. loaf ftilly horror - ' _ employme n t of . Lenient women out by all the evidence, and it was clearly proved that th e proportion of women and young persons employed had been greatly in creased since the year 1839. Withrespect to the difference of age of those employed in ti manufacturing and those employed in the agricultural die' L eiet s , it s h ou ld b e recol lected that only 8 p er cent , of the ' nufacturing distri c t s were aboe e 40 o orking people i n th e ma - years of age , w hil st o f Per cent. above it. T o a those employed in the angrier u . tura districts there were .50 .0 sure, if the statements made b • the Hon. Gentleman (Mr Bright) were correct, pains to t inform was not correct, ).' e+ .. he had taken the greatest himself on the s ' - soject. His (Lord Ashley's) statements re ferred to t_the 'spinning and manufacturing of cotton, and in sup port wr.at he advanced he would refer to Inspector Horner's reports He craved the indulgence of the House whilst he re butted certain charges that had gone forth, throwing aspersions ,of a very grave nature on his charaeter. He held in his hand a letter, signed by Mr. Ashworth, on behalf of himself and 200 other manufacturers, that put forward statements which re flected upon his (Lord Ashley's) veracity, and which he felt bound to answer. The letter of Mr. Ashworth stated that the only witness- that Lord Ashley had quoted by name in his speech on the recent debate, was thoroughly discre dited and was finally abandoned even by the Noble Lord himself. Mr. Ashworth said he could not say how many of " the facts," which the Noble Lord had stated were furnished by Dodd. Why, he (Lord Ashley) had during his speech, in . the most distinct manner disavowed and disclaimed having re ceived any of the information he stated to the House from Dodd, and so far from having mentioned his name, he never did so during the whole debate. Again so far from net quoting any witness by name, but William Dodd, he had quoted 29 se parate and distinct witnesses, and mentioned their names ; as also the evidence of 'several factory inspectors.—( Hear, hear. ) It was really unpardonable that a document should be pub lished in all the newspapers, containing such gross aspersions on his veracity, and such unfounded mis-statements. —( Hear.) This letter, si gne d b y M r. Ashworth, on behalf a those 200 mill-owners, further set forth, that he (Lord Ashley) had, in his speech, quoted only those portion of M. Villermets pamphlet which were for his own argument, and exempted those por tions of it which were against his position. •He (Lord Ashley) had quoted that passage in the pamphlet which stated " that the sacrifice of human life, Consequent upon factory labour, was hardly more deplorable than the development of ecrofula, which took place in the masses of our working people engaged in manufactures." Mr. Ashworth writes, that " the Noble Lord had not quoted that part of M.Villerrne's pamphlet which referred to the establishing of a maximum of labour as unwise and inexpedient." After much search, he (Lord Ashley) had eertainly found such a passage. But he would read for the House the sentences with which M. Villerme concluded his pamphlet : "If there had been one argument necessary for putting manufactures under the restriction of law, and deter mining the maximum of daily toil, surely it shauld be applied in the case of children--those creatures who were sacrificed in the laborious employments of factory labour. Twelve years ago a measure on this subject had been propounded and „rejected, but the principle of restriction had made great progress since that time. In many foreign countries the restrictive principle had been adopted and pursued. The negro had been emancipated, and the public mind had taken up the question, and, sooner or later, the result would be favourable to the cause of humanity, but that result they should hasten by all possible means." Such were the words of M. Villerme ; and yet he (Lord Ashley) had been so grossly aspersed for quoting the opinions of this writer; and the country were told by this Mr. Ashworth, and the 200 master-manufacturers, that no confidence could be , placed in Lord Ashley's statements, who had so perverted M. Villerma's meaning. He had been charged with gross exaggeration, and with painting the evils of the factory system in too. strong colours. Now he would read to the House a letter from Mr. William Kenworthy, the member of an eminent commercial firm, and he would remind the House that Mr. Kenworthy's testimony, as regarded cotton-spinning, was the very best that could be had, for Mr. Kenworthy - had been an operative himself, and passed through all the various degrees of factory labour until he became, the principal of a great firm. He said that " the occupations of the factory labourers cried loudly for relief and relaxation, and for a re stricted term of labour. Let the British nation be degraded no longer by tolerating such a system —a system exercising a most baneful influence over the unhappy people employed in it. Let them relieve those weakly and emaciated creatures, and curtail the time of their remaining in an atmosphere in which they breathed nothing but noxious gases, and detri mental, in a high degree, to human life. Thousands had their miseries protracted under the delusive belief that danger would come to their home manufactures from foreign com petition. He entreated all parties to go into the considera tion of this subject, and to snatch from the vortex of disease, and immorality, and crime the manufacturing popula tion who were involved in it." Why, in the speech which he (Lord Ashley) had made, he had said nothing so strong, nothing so conclusive and striking, as those expressions of Mr. Kenworthy. As he was thus put upon his defence he would, in addition to the authorities he had already quoted, refer the Hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward) to the language of the Rev. Mr. Hearn, the Roman Catholic priest of Manchester. It would hardly be supposed that that reverend gentleman had any sympathy with him (Lord Ashley.) That reverend gen tleman, in a publication then in his (Lord Ashley's) hand, said, " This was not the first time he had addressed the public on the subject of factory labour. When he reflected on the respon sible situation he held in that town, and that a whole mass of his people were engaged in that labour, he felt he should be warring against justice and against his own conscience if he did not stand forward to claim protec tion for the factory children and women." Now had he (Lord Ashley) stated anything beyond that ?—(" Hear, hear," loud cries of "Divide, divide, and confusion.) He was stating facts —quoting facts—and he only did so on compulsion—he only did so because the statements he had made had that night been questioned.—( Hear, hear.) He would now go to Halifax, where Mr. Robert Sutton, as he understood a most highly respectable man, had publicly stated, " that the factory people could not stand such excessive and protracted labour, which incapacitated all of them for the proper duties of life, and more especially the women for those domestic duties which nature had specially awarded to them." Had he (Lord Ashley) stated anything but this ?—( Hear, hear, and confusion.) He was aware he was trespassing on the patience of the House, but when he commenced his address he stated that he had not in tended to have alid one word upon the subject that night, but as he had been called to account so sharply for his conduct and his statements, he had felt called upon, in duty to the cause and to himself, to reply to the charges which had been made. —(Loud cries of " Hear, hear." Amidst great con fusion the Noble Lord then read several extraots from speeches made by Mr. Samuel Smith, an eminent surgeon of the north, at a meeting (as we thought) at Chorley, and by Mr. John Moore, at a meeting at Bolton.) The latter gentleman, who had been a medical practitioner in Bolton for upwards of forty years, had declared publicly that the race was rapidly degenerating, and that unless something were done the most serious evils to society would take place.—(Great con fusion, and loud cries of " Divide.") Ile (Lord Ashley) had never said more than this. As, however, the House was se impatient, many as were the authorities he had it in his power still to produce, he would not detain them. What he had stated had been forced from him.—( Hear, hear.) He never intended to have said a word that night, but for the attack made upon him, and in addressing the House at all he lied been forced into it in self-defence, to show that all be had stated in his speech upon a former occasion had been borne out by facts and statements that nothing could impugn. --(Hear, hear, and loud cries of " Divide.") Mr. C. WOOD rose with Mr. Bright, Mr. Ainsworth, and others, amidst a complete shout of " Divide, divide," " Oh, oh," and other discordant cries. The other Hon. Gentlemen succumbed to the storm, but Mr. Wood persevered, and after a struggle with the House, was permitted to address them, though amidst continued interruptions. The Hon. Gentleman was understood to say that no one in that House was more sa tisfied than he was that the Noble Lord who had just sat down was incapable of wilfully making any misstatement io that House, or anywhere else. The statements, too, which he had made, and which, no doubt, he thought himself compelled to make, had nothing to do with the question before the House. —( Hear, hear.) The question of the Hon. and Learned Mem. ber for Bath was simply this, whether they should or should not interfere with the labour of young people. For his (Mr. Wood's) part, he never in his life came to a conclusion more un lesitatingly than he did this night, that it was his duty to vote with the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath; for he knew nothing more unsafe or unwise than to interfbre with that discretion which all persons had a right to exercise as regarded their own labour.—( Hear and contusion.) In his opinion the House ought not to interfere upon the subject at all ; Wei if it would do so, then the next best thing he and others could do was to persuade the House to interfere as little as possible. He could not acquit the Government of departing from a general rule and principle for the first time. They were now, for the first time, about setting the example of violating an other principle, The Government admitted that they had abandoned principles, and now there was nothing to guide them but the caprice of Hon. Members, and where this was to stop it was impossible to tell. The First Lord of the Trea sury, and the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had stated that it was a necessary consequence of the Bill of 1838, which regulated the labour of children in factories. Ac- cording to his (Mr. Wood's) opinion, that measure was founded upon a different principle, namely,. peutecting those who could not protect themselvee.-,-(nes of " Divide, divide.") That measure was not to reet r i c t the laboter of children alone, but factory labour altogether. If it was. 'Coe - object of the Government te restrict the Lours of labour of all persons i n factories to ten, eleven, or twelve hours, let that be stated --let there be no O: - Laing, but let the government bring in a Bill on the subject.—(Cries of " Divide, divide.") He be lieved k was most injurious 41 the workman himself to in terfere with his labour, and he for one was unwilling to do by legislation for any roan what he could do for himself. He knew that a public meeting of his constituents, had been held on this question, and that the opinion ef that meeting was in favour of a Ten Hours' Bill. Al g t that did not at all affect what he had stated in that House, that up to the time of hold ing that meeting ate representation on the subject had reached him. The ieference he drew from this was, that they did not tale much interest in the matter. He did not believe that the measure would improve either the morals, the religion, or the education of the working classes, but any other measure that would better their condition he should be ready to support, Mr. P. AINSWORTH rose to complain of a matter some what personal to himself. At an early part of the evening, the Hon. and Learned Member for Rath had accused him of in tolerance, and this charge he denied was well founded. With respect to the Bill, he thou se eltt a limitation might be effected, The legislative regulaa' s aus that had been already introduced sit the factories 4,1 done no harm to the masters, mad had effeeled great good for the working classes; even, with resreCt to the cleanliness and ventilation of the Isaias this had been the case ; it had also done much for the education oi the children in these e districts, which heretofore had teen totally neglected. thoughtlf Government would he ropo proteed wisely and judiciously e 1\" "" g ood migh t . Le done by legislation ; and when _ to rt sition f e ore the House, be should be prepared , iipp . o Ur. plan which the House had already sanctioned , by rejecting theplan of ten hours and twelve hours, both the proposal of king eleven hours as the limit of labour. Mr. ROEBUCK said he had neve r made any charge o f a particular nature agams • t the Hone Member , of intoleran ce . While speak i ng, he heard a running commentary behind him and he made a general observation that those who had ch ange d very often themselves were often the most intolera n t t o c h ange in others. Mr. iiELDEN and Mr, C,. BU . LLER rose together, but the latter Hon . G entleman having given way, FIELDEN commenced by referring to a statement of the H oAl . Member for Halifax (Mr. C. Wood) that the workers of that place were not in favour of a Ten Ho) n. He'went amongst the constituency of the Hon. Qeutleman to ascertain that fact. He attended a meeting there, and, after reading the the words of the Hou. Oeutleman, he put this question to them—“ His Mr. Wood fairly represented you when he wade thi.i r.taYement) "—cries of '. No, no. __( l Then tie put this question .to them—" Do .you wish a .Ten Hours' Factory Bill to be passed INkkhout delay ? ".- - --cries of " Yes. yes."—(Lond laugter.) He then put a third questkon ti them—(l.taixgiiterj—" Are you willing to run tiie risk of be gwaes being reduced if• a Ten 49urs% • Pactory Bill passed?"—loud cries of " Wa are, we are." He then put a fourth question to fueel.--- A laugh.) " Do you autho rise me to, qtate this in the Hous e o f Commons P""—cries of "- 1 4si yes:' He knew the Hon. Mewber had as kind a feeling towards the people of HalifaT, as anybody, but be did not repre sent their feelings fairly on thin subject; I ' 4l tqu' 1'"7:,, io Ha lifais—(. Laughtei).— to the cW leritu's f""..._(/., ~..„ ou —be was eonvii*;i 11,4 kg.... 1.3 . mixAciOd a, ' ....,, c properly that they had not s ''''.-- - _.- k Dir. Fielden) was, . t He had no such fear _ ~..esented their feelings on this subject. di , a:rned Member for Bath ! '' s ' -."." come from the meeting as well d laughter) as those entertained by the Honn.tahils 'subject. The Hot ar e with regard to legislation o labourers had t if power to protect themselves, and had _ _ their 0 . wou ld accomplish Learned Gentleman, said that thefa t c h t . o r r e y wn they held out for a short time they out hints . a b ject. Did they wish, then, to have a turn-out in Yorkshire ?--e ' (Hear, h e a r .) .Was it wise to encourage such a thing ?---- (Hear, hear,) He believed they would not succeed. They were helpless, and that was the reason they ought to interfere. He had always thought the business of the - Legislature was to protect the weak against the strong.—( Hear, hear.) That sa as never the principle of p rotect i on he contended for. and he had thought it was very wrong to attempt to do that.--(Hear hear.) If th ey were of that opinion, they should not be de: terred from carrying the principle into. , practice.— ( Hear, hear.) Their own inspectors recommended it, They should not forget that the poor had at one time a claim of maintenance upon the land. —(Hear, hear.) They were deprived of that right. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman d assiste in depriving them of it. That was protection from lawyers.—(Laughter.) No humane man in the country would agree with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He believed the Hon. and Learned Gentleman knew nothing of the effect of shortening the duration of the hours of labour. —(Laughter.) (The Hon. Gentleman went on making allusions to the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, who sat exactly under him, which excited considerable merriment in the House, but !rem the low tone of voice in which the Hon. Member spoke, ar &the laughter of the House, their import did not reacts us.) _He -denied that a curtailmeut of the hours of labour would have the effect mcribed to it.' He appealed to the Hon - Member for Sheffield on the point. The period of the labour of some of the constituents of the Hon. Member ; was reduced to 7i hours a day, and they got more wages for those 74 hours labour than when they worked twelve hours. He thought it would- be hard to convince the people of Sheffield that they were not benefited by this.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He could say that all which had been advanced by several Hon. Members of this House was contrary to the interests of the working classes. He thought that if the hours of labour were restricted to ten hours instead of twelve,' it would tend much to improve the moral and physical condition of the people. • Mr. PHILIPS could say that he seldom had heard a speech more.strongly.marked by an anti-national spirit than that ,of the Hon. Member for Oldham. With respect to the town of Sheffield, he (Mr. M. Philips) could assure the house that" the system of combination lately adopted in that town, by which the duration of the hour of labour was diminished, had driven many of the principal manufacturers out of the country. He himself had been engaged in the foreign trade of this country, and he understood that there was no town throughout England had suffered, more than Sheffield from these circum stances. If in extending the operation of these prin. ciples to other towns, they thought they would secure higher wages, he could assure them they were much mistaken ; for the result would be, that they would be placing the interests of those trades in jeopardy. He had the interests of the ope ratives of the country too much at heart to adopt this mea sure, ani he should, consequently, vote for the motion of his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Bath, for he cer tainly could not reconcile with his conscience the justice of- in terfering, in the slightest . degree, with the application of adult labour. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department had stated that many of his (Mr. P.'s) constituents were in favour of a limitation of labour, or at least regarded the matter with indifference. Now, the fact was,. that property had been so considerably diminished in many parts of Lancashire, that many of the manufacturers looked with apparent indifference upon the whole matter. In the town of Manchester there was not snore than twelve mills which worked more than twelve hours. He, for one, wa s most anxious that the artisan should not be obliged to work more than ten hours ; but he thought, in the the present state of the country, this could nut be done. If they worked more than twelve hours a day, those doing so of course received the higher wages for it. The Hon. Member sat down amidst much confusion and cries of " divide, divide." Mr. PARKER thought, after what had been stated con cerning Sheffield, they must feel convinced of the propriety of allowing the labourers to be perfectly free agents in this matter. He was also very much opposed to any inter ference with employment of adult labour, because be thought any such interference would be fraught with the utmost danger, and have a decided tendency to destroy the prosperity of the country. He felt convinced, therefore, that the only elan for this House to adopt was a plain and intelli gible proposition ; and instead of talking of ten or twelve hours, declare that they would not interfere with adult labour .but: that all labo urers w h o had arrived at the years of discretion,. should exercise their labour as they liked; and that the House had no right to interfere with their free-will in the slightest degree. With respect to infant labour, he considered it to be a different question, but this was a question upon which he shoe. C 1 not then speak, but leave it to other --The House then divided— s better acquainted with th e For going into Committee ........ . ....... . 282 For Mr. Roebuck's amendment 76 Majority ag a i ns t th e amendment ...... ...206 The House then wen t i n t o C ommittee pro forma on the Bill. and immediately resumed, .Monday next being the day fixed. for proceeding with the Committee. ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL. On the motion of Dr. NICHOLL for going inteCeessmit. tee on this Bill, Mr. P. BORTHWICK objected to the motion, or, account of the lateness of the hour. After a short conversation strangers were ordered to with draw, but no division took place. The Bill then went through Committee pro forma. POOR LAWS (IRELAND. Sir DENHAM NORREYS moved for the appointment of a Committee on Poor -laws (Ireland), to consist of Sir Denham Norreys, Lord Eliot, Mr. More O'Femll, Mr. Young, Mr. French, Viscount Bernard, Mr. John O'Connell, Lord Claud Hamilton, Mr. Tuite, Mr. Sh aw , L or d C ourtenay,. Mr. Ve se y, Si r E dmund Hayes, Sir Arthur Brooke, and Mr.. E. P. Shirley. Mr. SHAW was decidedly averse to the appointment !,f th e Committee as tending to unsettle men's minds in Ireland, on the question of poor-laws. - Lord JOCELYN - opposed the appointment of the Com mittee for the same reasons. After a iew words from Sir DENHAM NORREYS the 1n9.,:50n was withdrawn by consent, with an understood inten tion of being renewed on Monday. Sir GEORGE CLERK obtained leave to bring in a Bill to regulate and secure the debt due by the City of Edinburgh to the public; to confirm an agreement between the said city and its creditors ; and to effect a settlement of the affairs of the said city and the town of Leith. The House then, at a few minutes after One o'clock, ad• journed until Monday. - - CU URT CIRCULAR. Tiu QUEEN DOWAGER.—IIer iioyal Highness the Einthts s of Gloucester, and other members of the Royal Fan,ily, sent yesterday to Marlbo roug h H ouse, to learn the state of their august relative. Many of the Nobility and Gentry also called yesterday at Marlbor oug h H ouse, to make inquiry after the health of her Majesty. The following was the bulletin issued:— " The Queen Dowager still suffers pain in the band and armkbu rlboro ugt bor Majesty is altogether going on very f avourably. " ah Muse, "May a s 1844. " " DAVID DA VIES, M.D. TILE DueliEss OF GLOUCESTER. —The ans Ten yes terday at Gloucester House to the numerou sinqu ies after the state of her Royal Highness, made by the Dii3lomatie Corps, and also by the Nobility and Gentry, were, " Her loyal Highness is going (hi very favourably. ' l• 11 - - The Queen and Prince Albert honoured the exhibition of the Royal Academy, in Trafalgar -square with a visikYester day. Her Maiesty and his Royal Highness arrived at the Academy from Buckingham Palace, shortly before 1 o'clOck, attended by the Duchess of Buceleuch, Mistres s of the Robe% and the Marchioness of Douro, Lady in Waiting. The Ho nourable Miss Hamilton and the Honourable Miss Stanley, Maids of Honour hi Waiting, and the Kari-of Hardwick% Lord in Waiting, followed in a secondroyal carriage; and the Equerries in Waiting, Colonels Buckley and Wylde, oc cupied another royal carriage. Sir Martin Archer Slice, President of the Royal Academy, received the Illustrious Visitors on their arrival and coilducted her Majesty and his Royal - Highness through the different schools. The Lord Chamberlain, the Master the Horse, and the Groom of the Stole to Prince Albert, were in attendance the Acan-iy-, and attended her Majesty and the Prince thi;;k i -gh - the exhibition. At two o'clock the Queen and Prince Albert, attended by the Royal suite, left the Academy, and returned to Bucking ham Palace. II is Royal Highness Prince Albert presided yesterday after noon, at a meeting of the Commission for promoting-6nd en couraging the Fine Arts in the re-building the Palace of Westminster. His Royal Highness, attended by Colonel Wvide, arrived at Gwydyrlleuse, at three o'clock. he Commissioners present were the Duke of Sutherland. the Marquis of Lansdowne, Viscount Pattnerston, Lord. Col borne, Sir Robert Peel, Sir James Graham, Sir Robert Harry Inglis, Mr. 11. Gaily Knight, M.P., Mr. Benjamin Hawes, 111,1 ~ Mr. Henry Hallam, 'Mr. George Vivian, and Mr. Thomas Wyse, The meting broke up at a quar t er b e f ore six o ' clock, when ritic - Albert, attended by Col. Wylde, returned to Bucking ham Palace. The Royal Family were taken carriage airings yesterday in the Roy , al Gardens of Buckingham Palace. His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge left town yOl terday morning for his residence at Kew. The Governor of the Bank of England, and the Deputy- Governor, had an interview with the Chancellor of the Et chequer yesterday, at his official residence in Downing- street. Captain Sir ThomasHerbert,erbert, R.N., had anintemew with Lord Stanleyyesterday, at the Colonial-offiCe. an li n or t d er S vi at ew ido w n i , th 3 t l h .l:. evening. Mr. had an interview The mess of her Majesty's honourable corps q of er Ge ' n e tlem rd efi al' '- e a lit ti nc S el i for li ef o rh a e r E d Exchequer had at-Arms dined together . yestentay Mr. John Wood, Chairineln - of the q h u a e v r e xye arr ste reia . their rest_t with the Chancellor of the K e E rri x s c o h j e i Sir Edward and Lady Hotel, Belgra ve . s t reet. de i n , c o e rd in p r m t Stanhope-street. anhasleftl,air an for Bfighton. Dispatches were sent off yesterday_ evening from. the Colonial-office, for Sir Charles Metcalfe, Governor of Canada, and the Governors of the other North American colonies. F -SPORTING, INTELLIGENCE CHESTER RACES.—Tuunsaa.Y. The Cup settling commenced this morning the Royal Hopi, and, with occasional interruptions from the light ebtreoduggehntttroy,awphaortwiaeliteermnuminaetrioous,n about aci active; e; two an o d 'cl S oc ue lc c . The essful was accounts were heavy, and, owing to the absence of several persons interested, either as winners or losers, cannot be finally adjusted before the next Newmarket meeting. The Red Deer party are said to have netted, in the aggregate, about 10,0004 a large sum to take ou t of the ring previous to the Derby, and net at all calculated to facilitate the settling on the Tuesdity after Epsom, if dither of the favourites .should happen to.win. £he racing this afternoon commenced about the usual time, and; thanks to the heats, was spun out until eight o'clock! —one-more heat, and there would not have been light to distinguish the colours. The principal event was the Dee Stakes ; it brought out several horses engagid in the Derby., l O vi a n ka,d St. ner .a l n astye ar Le s g a e n r d ; i - a th m un on e g i s , t a t dai hem k h T o h r e s C e i ur n e s , c a ot ro s s d 4 p:Ab e__ tic both strongly fancied; the result proved how accurat6y their pretensions had been weighed. Lancet did n_ettim, having stet with an accident on Tuesday, in leaving the stable; the injury he riNciv-ed is slight, and.. not lik e l y to prevent hia rune ug ibr the Derby. - - Mr. ', u r ge __G Robins is again waving his wand in °ur-atiVertising columns, and its flourishes clothe at mace our :adds and homesteads in all the gorgeousness of eastern dra pery.; Wherever ho plants his foot crops spring up ripe and ready for the sickle, and we almost hear the tenants groa n beneath, the weight of their money bags. The very s cen t o f " the little host of dunghills" is - "quite refreshing" when turned over by his pen ; here " an army of thorns contrasted with an infinity of evergreen oaks, are seen contending ftjr the ascendancy'—or rather we should say for the first i t o ti c i the green sw r 1 :1 it ll w in the advertisement, but this Mr. Robins's modesty e do not , is because him - to add; there we behold " hill wad d a l e, am dells precipices, without termination;" flowers (of rhet • la and t frighten away up everywhere as if indigemiva, t o the Soil; a d , aric) spr i ng actually see fairies dv,uang On about aucl ttigli peapinretemrsisofes.thVeedariill: tLire.yßazinsratisleroonled-orfasthlliocZfoUc, landscape I:lt:lcg.!it on cauV€ls3 te-adora legs p ti i m ty id i . i p i s u r s e k l e ms tebi el e •s a i 4 f l f v ou l n lo d t wads of the new Houses of Par c' tricts,—Zsex H 4741 'I)" Plsetec e runt 414' hat i l si leut l oth , w they would make -the Members' hearts N - % • ~.