The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

Y, +~l S ~~ . t /4'fr IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 15. Their Lordships met at Five o'Clock. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from Chi chester against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bar gor. THE CATHOLIC OATH. Lord STOURTON withdrew the motion, of which he had given notice, for bringing under the consideration of their Lordships the construction of the Roman Catholic Oath. .Aips to.. LORD DUNDONALD'S INVENTIONS. Lord BROUGHAM postponed the motion, of which he had given notice, respecting the petition presented by Lord Dun donald. Lori MINTO took that opportunity of bearing testimony +to the value of one of the inventions of the Noble Lord—an improvement in the application of steam machinery to vessels - ')f war. It had been subjected to a trial of four or five years, and the experiment had been highly satisfactory, both as to its operation and durability. POOR-LAW UNIONS. The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that he should to-morrow move for a Select Committee to consider the expe diency of making some provision for religious worship and spiritual instruction in the poor-law union houses both in England and Wales. TURNPIKE TRUSTS. The Duke of WELLINGTON gave notice of the inten the of the Government to introduce a Bill, in the course of R present session, on the subject of Turnpike Trusts. All the eports on the subject not having been received, the Bill could not be introduced immediately. STATE OF IRELAND.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. On the motion for resuming the adjourned debate, Earl FORTESCUE rose, and said that he understood a statement had been made in another place which affected him personally, and also the character of the Go. vernment, at whose head he was in Ireland. A person high in office had stated that, within three months before the late Government went out of office, seven stipendiary magistrates had been appointed in addition to the existing establishment of stipendiary magistrates in Ireland. Before he proceeded further, he begged to inform their Lord ships that he alone was responsible for those appointments. The Government with which he had been connected had no thing to do with them. On reference to the offieial documents, be found it was perfectly correct that seven new appointments were made between the 15th of June and the 28th of August, 184 t. It was not, however, true that those appointments were made in addition to the existing number of stipendiary magistrates. During the time he had mentioned three vacancies occurred, and those vacancies were filled up. That left four out of the seven. Of those four, one was appointed in the city of Armagh, at the earnest request of Lord Gosford, in consequence of a dreadful murder that was committed in the neighbourhood. Another was sent to Tralee, in consequence of disputes continually occurring, which terminated in riots amongst the fishermen in the neighbourhood. Another was appointed to a wild coast district is Donegal, in consequence of disturbances _having taken place between the people and the revenue police. He did not exactly recollect why the other was appointed, but he knew that the appoint. ment was made under equally urgent circumstances. As these were the facts of the case, he trusted that this would be a sufficient answer to the statement made in another place. He would now turn to the immediate subject under discussion. He could not agree with those who said that this motion of his Noble Friend was ill-timed. No one could doubt its importance—and its importance, he conceived, was a sufficient justification for its full and immediate consideration. He stated that much of the excitement of the people arose from the attempts made to restrict the franchise. But for those attempts, these great meetings would not, in all probability, have been held. He cited the large amount of the repeal rent, during the last year, compared with former years, as a proof of the great discontent of the people. Ile felt bound to render a due meed of praise to Mr. O'Connell for the manly stand which he made against the propagation of the doctrines which were endeavoured to be spread through out Ireland by the Chartists. During the time when he (Earl Fortescue) was Lord-Lieutenant, the amount of the repeal rent was scarcely more than 200/. for each week, but during the administration of the present Government, it had risen to nearly 2,000/. Mr. O'Connell had refused to accept the highest situation which had been offered to him, but in the instance of his son's appointment, he ( Earl Fortescue) would say that Mr. O'Connell never made the slightest application. On the subject of the Irish Church he thought that there could be but one opinion. After some further observations, which were quite inaudible, the Noble Lord concluded, as we understood him, by a wish that the present discussions might tend to the benefit and *Ware of Ireland. As he sat down, some Noble Lord moved daat the House proceed to the Order of the Day.—(Laughter. ) Lord HADDINGTON said the Noble Lord complained of a statement that had been made elsewhere, of the dismissal of the stipendiary magistrates in Ireland. It had been stated that the Government removed ten of them, and it was in order to defend the Government from that charge that the statement was made. The number of stipendiary magistrates in the early part of 1841 was 59, and between June and the 28th of August, that being the day on which the Noble Viscount opposite (Lord Melbourne) left office, seven additional magistrates were appointed. As soon as the present Government came into office, those seven were removed, reducing the number again to fifty-nine, that being the number for which the House of Commons had given a vote. At present there were sixty, being one more stipendiary 'magistrate than in 1839, 1840, and up to the 15th June, 1841. He did not think therefore that her Majesty's present Govern ment were liable to the imputations which had been at tempted to be cast upon them of setting aside stipendiary ma gistrates for party purposes. gistrates for party purposes. Since the time when the present -Government came into office four vacancies had taken place, and those vacancies had been filled up by the appointment of four of those gentlemen who had been appointed by the late Government. He had nothing particular to say against the motion at present before their Lordships. he could not, how ever, say so much for the speech of his Noble Friend who in troduced the motion. It was filled with invective and recrimi nation. He would wish to know for what they were to quarrel ? Why, one was the subject of the Catholic Clergy. But this was an old subject which had been mooted long since. What he thought still as as, that the Noble Marquis might have selected a more opportune time for bringing this matter before the consideration of their Lordships and the public. This alleged grievance had been brought before Parliament in file year 1805, on which occasion he (the Earl of Haddington) voted along with the Whigs ; for against the Whigs he had no animus when they brought forward measures such as he might conincide in. His Noble Friend beside him, (the Duke of Wellington) had wisely omitted to annex conditions to the Catholic Emancipation Act. The Marquis of NORMANBY—Does the Noble Lord for get the abolition of the franchise of the forty-shilling free holders ? The Earl of HADDINGTON—The Noble Lord was right. He did think that the introduction of any proprosition for the payment of Roman Catholic clergy would be most impo litic at the present time, inasmuch as it would not be acecepted by that body. Many propositions had been made with respect to the Established Church in Ireland, by Noble Lords oppo site, but he (the Earl of Haddington) thought the question was, whether they would recognise the Church on the volun tary principle in that country, or whether the whole Church Establishment should be abolished. He thought the proposi tion of the Noble Marquis was a perfect chimera, as the Noble Lord the President of the Council had shown to the satisfaction of their Lordships. According to the Act of Union, the Church as by law established was part and parcel of the law of the land. His Noble Friend had announced that it was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to sanc tion in the slightest degree any measure which could degrade or destroy the Protestant Church in Ireland ; but, at the same time, he (the Earl of Haddington) thought such a determina tion was quite consistent with the adoption of a course of legis lattop which would render a full measure of civil and religious rights to the Roman Catholics. If the agitators of Ireland, for their own purposes, excited the passions of the people, under pretence of obtaining their rights, it was for them to prove that there was ample room to conciliate that people by the adoption of liberal measures.—( Hear. ) The defects in the registration system could not be imputed to the Government, since they had announced their intention of bringing in a Bill to remedy the evils which had arisen from an interpretation of the Act which had the effect of diminish ing the number of Irish voters. He denied the imputation that justice was not fairly administered. He defended the ju dicial appointments of the Government. Were men to be :ex eluded from the bench, because, at some time in their lives, they had made speeches distasteful to the Catholic Hier archy? That charge came with a very had grace from the Noble Marquis, who, unless he was belied, offered the situation of Master of the Rolls to Mr. O'Con nell.—(" Hear, hear," from the Marquis of Normanby.) As to the monster meetings, it was said that the most manly coarse would have been to have prevented them at first. Ile said that the Government thought they would wear themselves out ; the Government was not so foolish as to imagine any tech thing. The Government did not prevent the first meet ings ; but they took a course by which the people—who saw what passed in Parliament through the papers—were warned of the consequences of attending such meetings. As to the dismissal of the magistrates for attending repeal meetings, the Government was perfectly justified in doing it. No man who attended such a meeting could be depended on for putting down excesses that might arise from excitement on other oecasions. With regard to the Clontarf meetin g , he contended that the proclamation against it was issued quite in sufficient time. That meeting was called together by a sort of military procla mation, which rendered it absolutely necessary for the Govern ment to interfere. He admitted that Mr. O'Connell did use every effort to preserve the peace, and not the slightest disorder occurred. But the alarming part of the subject was this— that one man should have such influence as that when he said peace there was peace ; what might be the con. sequence if it suited him to say war? The Noble Marquis opposite (the Marquis of Clanricarde) complained of the manner io which the persons in Ireland had been brought to justice. He complained of their being arraigned .for conspiracy, and said they ought to have been tried for sedition. The Noble Lord also said that great risk of blood was incurred by the Government in the manner in which they had proclaimed the Clontarf meeting. Their Lordships would recollect that Clontart was near to Dublin, where a large military force was stationed. But suppose they had proclaimed MuNghmast, Tara, or Clifden meetings. There would then have been risk of bloodshed indeed, inas much as the military force stationed at those places was ex tremely small, as compared with the vast numbers attending the meeting. Suppose those meetings had been proclaimed, and the people attending those meetings had refused to obey the proclamation, what would have been said then by Noble Lords opposite ? Would it not have been said that Peterloo had been revived, and that the meetings had been put down which we re b e i ng held for a perfectly legal purpose ? The Government had not prosecuted the traversers in Ireland be cause the object they had in view was unlawful, but because their means for attaining that object were illegal. The means they adopted were i ntimidation—intimidation of Parliament and the Government. (Lord Haddington) theref o re trusted that the Government stood sto vindicated before their stood v Lordships, as he was sure th ey i c a T t e h d e y b h e f a o d r e d o t the e e people of England, for what th ey had done.nd all they could to maintain the succeeded—succeeded, eand tranquillity of Ireland. They had of the ordinary and unaided law of the la too,l b&mseerasl.l It had been said in another place that his Noble n Friend on the Woolsack had been appointed to his office on account of his hostility to Ireland. lie (Lord fladdington) roust say, th a t he had never read any accusation with more indignation in the whole course of his life.—( Hear, hear.) The attack upon his Noble and Learned Friend was a most foul calumny. —(Hear; hear.) No one who knew his Noble and Learned Friend could ever accuse him of being the enemy of, or hostile He had never known a man loss to, any human creature. liable to such a gross imputation, or who had more generosity in his nature. He (Lord Haddington) begged pardon for thus speaking in the presence of his Noble and Learned f,Eriend, but he had a right to feel that this was not only an imputation upon the motives of Sir Robert Peel, but upon the whole Government.—(Cheers.) He thought that the person who said that her Majesty's Ministers had appointed her Lord High Chancellor to his situation on account of his hostility to ~ the people of Ireland, was not, by such a course, doing that which was likely to allay the excitement at present existing. —(Hear, hear.) They were not accustomed to hear impute tattons of this kind, and he was sure they must all have heard of it with deep regret. He was quite certain that it ought to be regretted by him who made it, for language of this kind was little likely to heal the wounds of Ireland. In conclusion, be begged to say that nothing would be left undone by her Ma jesty's Government to tranquillise and conciliate t' e people of Ireland. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE explained. When he said the parties who had lately been tried in Ireland ought to have been tried for sedition, he did not say that seditious lan guage had been used, but that it was stated that seditious lan guage had been used at the meetings held in Ireland last year. The parties using such language, if they had used such lan guage, ought to have been prosecuted at the time. Earl FORT ESCUE explained. Lord MONTEAGLE then rose to address the House. The question of stipendiary magistrates formed but a small part of the question. At the same time he felt that his Noble Friend, the late Lord-Lieutenant, had increased the confidence of Ire land by the course that he had pursued, and in that course he was fully vindicated. For himself, he was most anxious to render every justice to the terms of the motion that had been proposed by the Noble Marquis, but, in doing so, he was most anxious to see that justice was done on each side. Could it be said that Ireland was in the same state that it for merly had been ?—( Hear, hear.) Certainly not. It had hi therto, under the late administration, been in a state of per fect tranquillity and peace. What was its condition now ? Far, far, different.—( Hear, hear.) He concurred with the mea sures that had been adopted on the part of the Government,— ( Hear, hear.) He complained not of the forces that had been employed in Ireland ; but while he did so he was compelled to state that by the proceedings that had been taken, some, if not a little injury, had been effected in Ireland The Government had taken a great step, but if they were disposed to act upon the terms of conciliation, they, in his opinion, ought to have adopted a different course. Had they by the principles which they had pursued succeeded in govern ing Ireland effectually, or in keeping her people quiet? Cer tainly not. —( flear, hear. ) And what was the inference to be drawn ? Why, that the Government—the present existing Go vernment— had nut the confidence of the rich people ; they had not the confidence of the Irish Catholics. It might be true that they wished to govern Ireland on the principles of justice, but to do so they must adopt a very different course to that which they had pursued.—( Hear, hear.) The fact was, that the present Ministers had not the confidence of the people of Ireland, and the evidence of the last ten years had proved that assertion. What had been done with respect to the Muni cipal Bill? Had not the proceedings upon that measure given the greatest dissatisfaction to the people of Ireland? Was not that dissatisfaction one that ought to have been expressed? By that Bill they had given to England, and to Scotland, certain civil rights, but they had considered that Ireland was unworthy of such a concession.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, they had given to Ireland what he must. call a bar to civil rights, and in the renewal of certain laws they had forgotten Ireland altogether. Then, with respect to education, what had been the course that had been pursued towards Ireland? One that he must confess was of little credit to the Government. He did not wish to undervalue the votes that have been g iven by Hon. Members, in the other House of Parliament, but he thought, notwith standing all they had attempted to do, they had proved them selves greatly backward in the cause of the education of the people of Ireland. Then, with respect to the prosecutions that had taken place in Ireland, was it to be said, for one moment, that these prosecutions were conducted in a manner becoming a great Government? In that prosecution the Catholic reli gion—the priests had in a great measure been held up to scorn —their principles had been attacked, and the political franc chise and the rights of the people had been considered as no thing.—( Hear.) Much had been said against Mr. O'Con nell—much had been also asserted about the offers of prefer ment that had been made to him by the late Government. It was true that they had offered him the 'Mastership of the Rolls. He ( Lord Monteagle) regretted sincerely that that offer had not been accepted by Mr. O'Connell. In discussing this question, he should wish it to be understood distinctly that he was not in the most remote manner defending the agitation in that country. It had been his lot, during the administration of Earl de Grey, to meet Mr. O'Connell face to face and answer him upon the subject of the repeal of the Legisla tive union, and upon that occasion he did net shrink from the inquiry, nor would he do so now ; but still at the same time he thought it would be most unjust if he availing himself of this privileges in that place as a Peer were to attack a person who had no opportunity or power of reply. He believed it was pretty well understood that he owed but little gratitude to Mr. O'Connell—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—but still that should not in the slightest degree influence him, and his only motive in stating what he had just now done, was to show that he was actuated by no private bias. Upon the occasion of the appointment of three gentlemen of the highest honour and character—namely, Mr. Shell, Mr. Wyse, and Mr. More O'Ferrall—Mr. APNeil and the party with whom he was identified, made use of the most insulting observations with respect to the religious persuasion of those gentlemen. When such language was used by a great political party, it in some degree justified the violent ex pression from the other party. The great question at issue was, whether the Irish people had or had not confidence in the pre sent Government ? and if they had not, to seek out the cause. He should state that he attached no culpability to the Govern ment for the institution of the State trials ; becaue he thought that when a great body of persons openly avowed their inten tion by particular means, whether legal or other, to effect a political purpose, and in carrying that out assumed a system of military organisation, it was the bounden duty of the Govern• ment to interfere. With respect to the proclamation which had been issued before the Clontarf meeting, he should say the assertion that the Government had kept this proclamation back for any sinister motive, or for the purpose of putting down the meeting by force, was erroneous ; but still he thought it very unfortunate that a proclamation to put down a meeting appointed for Sunday bad been only issued at three o'clock on the Saturday, the more particularly as the people were coming from various and distant parts of the country. Lord de Grey only arrived in Ireland on Friday, and the proclamation was issued on Saturday. He (Lord Monte eagle) thought this was a lack of decision on the part of the members composing her Majesty's Government, and he would ask was this the manner in which such a measure should have been adopted? Why, he should ask, had not the Government. through the medium of some of its organs amongst the press, caused an intimation to be given to the people of the intention to suppress this meeting at an earlier period—in fact at the moment it was first determined upon? Again, he thought it most unfortunate for the Government, that the sheet of the jury list, which had been so frequently referred to and caused so much excitement, had been lost. He thought it was most essential for the interests and peace of Ireland, that there should be an amalgamation of all parties in that country. With respect to the Landlord and Tenant Commission, he was fully aware of the many difficulties by which it was surrounded ; but he was, at the same time, convinced that the Commis sioners was bound to turn their attention to the social condition of the people of Ireland y and he thought that no subject was of more importance than that of affording instruction to the people in agricultural science, in asmuch as a highly industrious class of persons were unable to make available the resources of the country. He also thought it most advisable that a State provision should be afforded to the Roman Catholic clergy; and also that the College of May nooth should be placed upon a higher footing, for by these means, and these alone,they would insure the admission of higher class persons to the ministry of that Church. The Duke of WELLINGTON then rose, but gave way to The Earl of RIPON, who said, that after the speeches made on the other side of the House, hardly any explanation was necessary of the conduct of ;he Government. The Noble Lord who had just sat down was evidently satisfied both with the past conduct of the Government, and with the measures they intended to propose. His (the Earl of Ripon's) Noble Friend in introducing this motion remarked, that it was not at all sur • prising that the people of Irelaud should not place confidence in her Majesty's Ministers. The ground upon which he made this remark was, that while there were three Scotchmen in the Cabinet, he could not discover a single Irishman with the exception of his Noble Friend near him (the Duke of Wellington) ! It was rather singular that when Lord Grey's Government was in power, the Noble Marquis did not discover that such a Government could not possess the confidence of the Irish people, for there was no Irishman in that Cabinet.—(Hear, hear.) The appointment of a noble relative of his (Lord Ripon) had been alluded to, as one not calculated to give satisfaction to the people of Ireland. There was one question upon which his noble relative (Lord de Grey) had ever entertained the strongest opinion, in whieh he had differed from his political friends, and differed from his family, and that was the Catholic question. He ( Earl Ripon) said that was prima facia proof of his Noble relative being calculated to conciliate the Irish people. His Noble Friend, in supporting the Catholic claims, had not popularity in view, for the question at that time was not a popular one in that House. No, he acted upon a principle of justice, and g ave those claims his hearty support. He therefore thought that her Majesty's Government had properly chosen him as a person likely to administer the government of Ireland in an honest and fair spirit. Then with respect to his Noble Friend the Chief Secretary, it was well known what his feelings had been. There was no division of opinion between the Lord Lieutenant and the Chief Secretary. Their opinions were the same. His Noble Relative entered upon his office with a firm determination of being neither bullied nor cajoled either by friend ur enemy, and he (Earl Ripon) would undertake to say that no appointment had ever been made that was less liable to the imputations which had been cast upon it. It had been said that it was impossidsle for the appointments of Mr. Baron Lefroy and Mr. Sergeant Jackson to give satisfaction in Ireland. There was no doubt that Mr. Baron Lefroy had strong political opinions He had often expressed those opinions in Parliament. He (Earl Ripon) did not say whether those opinions were right or wrong, he disagreed with many of them, but he believed that Mr. Baron Lefroy was a fair and honest man, uncorrupted, and perfectly incorruptible. 'He was a man whose justice on the bench nobody had ever ventured to impugn. Was it to be said that because a man had entertained strong political opinions that, therefore, he ought not to be appointed to a seat on the judicial bench ? What then was the objection made to Mr. Sergeant Jackson ? Why, that he was a great opponent to the national education scheme. Were they come to such a pass that a man's opinions were to be a bar to his advancement: in his profession? Why this was nothing but proscription if such a principle were to obtain. Mr. Sergeant Jackson had, it appeared, made an excellent judge, and yet exception was taken to his appoint ment. This exception, too, was taken by those who supported that party who had offered the Chief Judgeship to one who had lately been placed in an unenviable position. Then with respect to the elevation of Mr. Holt Waring, to which so much objection had been offered. Their Lordships would re collect the time when Parliament came to strong resolutions on the subject of the Orange Societies. The moment the wishes of Parliament were expressed that those institutions should be dissolved there was not a man to be found in Ireland more earnest, or more zealous, amongst those over (whom they exercised influence than Mr. Holt Waring was with those with whom he possessed any influence to induce them to abandon at once all such institutions. He (the Earl of Ripon) thought that this was quite sufficient to wipe away all recollection of his connection with such institu tions. He thought he had said sufficient for the refutation of the charge which had been brought against his noble relative of maladministration of his office. He would turn to the sub ject to which the Noble Marquishad referred at length, namely, the late trials in Ireland. He thought that with respect to this matter, the speech of his Noble Friend, who had spoken last, was a complete acquittal of the Government. He had said that the Government had done right in not acting before they had done, and in taking steps when they did. Here, then, were two of the charges against the Government got rid of. But his Noble Friend complained of the number of days that elapsed between the time the Government became aware of the proclamation that issued from the Corn Exchange, with respect to the re peal cavalry, and the issuing the proclamation. His Noble Friend, to show what he considered was delay on the part of the Government, referred to the course Mr. Canning adopted respecting an expedition to Portugal. It was per fectly true, as the Noble Lord had stated, that Mr. Can ning TNtioehldeaLofrodllcginots received intelligence on Friday, and on ning h a d ai t l roc that all in London, to be acted upon in these were ready to embark. n,i arrangements were made present Government was different, for the But the case of the determination come which mad to in London had to be acted upon in Du e blin, difference in the time. It had been said, on the other made the that the Attorney-General for Ireland was hardly known be fore the late trials. The Marquis of NORMANBY—I beg your pardon, that came ftom your Noble Colleague. The Earl of RIPON—Yes, but that will not do. It was said the Attorney-General was not known out of the law-courts in Ireland. Lord CAMPBELL—Your Noble Colleague said that he had not heard of his name. The Earl of RIPON said it was not to be a reproach to the Government that they did not know all at once what were the legal qualifications of all the gentlemen of the Irish bar. The idea was absurd. Why, Mr. Whiteside, one of the counsel for the traversers, in whom the traversers must have placed the most implicit confidence, inasmach as that gentleman was a Conservative in politics ; he, in his speech to the jury, stated that the speech of the Attorney-General was characterised by great fairness and talent. Lord CAMPBELL—That is a lawyer's compliment. The Earl of RIPON—The Noble and Learned Lord says that is a lawyer's compliment. The LORD CHANCELLOR—Yes, they often compliment upon talent, but not upon fairness.—(Laughter.) The Earl of RIPON continued—A great deal had been said about the missing sheet, containing the names of special jurors. Why, the person who actually lost, or toislaid, that sheet, was a Roman Catholic.—( Hear, hear.) Yet the less of the sheet was brought, not certainly as a direct charge against the Government, hut as a matter of grave suspicion. He had said more than he intended when he rose to address their Lordships. He was happy to find that the measures which her Majesty's Government intended to pursue had met with the approbation of Noble Lords opposite. He would not pretend to say what would be the result of those measures, but at present no opposition had been expressed with respect to them, but, on the contrary, they had met with the approbation of all parties. He anticipated the most salutary results. After the Noble Earl sat down there was a pause of some minutes • there was a general expectation that either Lord Campbell, the Lord Chancellor, or Lord Brougham, would have risen, but no manifestation of such an intention was made by either of them. Lord Brougham and Lord Camp bell were both in the House ; but the Lord Chan cellor was absent ; and the Earl of Shaftesbury, occupied the Woolsaek. The pause still continuing, and no Noble Lord rising to speak, while the Noble mover of the re solution also remained silent, the House grew impatient, and there were loud cries of " Question" and '° Divide." At this moment a Noble Lord conveyed an intimation to the Marquis of Normanby that the Lord Chancellor did not intend to speak upon the question at all. The House still being impatient, 'The Earl of SH AFTESBURY put the question. The Marquis of NORM ANBY thea rose to reply on his motion. He said, as he had understood that the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack intended to address the House, as it was very natural he should wish to do, he had waited for some minutes, in order that he might have an opportunity of doing so. But he had received an intimation from a Noble Lord near him, that it was not the intention of the Noble and Learned Lord to address any observations to the House. He, therefore, now rose to make such observa tions in reply as might appear necessary, in answer to the speeches that had been made on the other side. Before he did even this, he would make one general observation with respect to some remarks that had been made on the doubtful nature of the motion. The Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty had described the motion as so in definite that he could not conceive but that he had some previous interest in framing it in such a shape. He assured them that the present motion was the only one he ever intended to make. It was true that it was founded upon general principles—principles that might be adopted by many Noble Lords who did not agree with him in politics, and that it was framed differently from the motion made in the other House of Parliament. But it was so framed, because it was not usual to move their Lordships to go into a commission of the whole House. ...- ....- The LORD CHANCELLOR, having entered the House while the Noble Marquis was speaking, here interrupted him by saying, " Now, can I address the House now ?" The Marquis of NORMAN BY—Really, my Lords, after the intimation made to me that the Noble and Learned Lord did not intend to speak, and not having risen to reply till I re ceived that intimation, I think it strange that the Noble and Learned Lord should ask me if he could address your Lord ships now. Having waited for some minutes to give him an opportunity of speaking, and his Lordship not having risen, I am not much informed of the usages of your Lordships' House, if he has now any means of addressing you. The Noble and Learned Lord cannot address your Lordships now ; my Noble Friends around me will bear me out in saying that it was with the utmost unwillingness I rose to reply ; and now when I am explaining the purport of my motion, the Noble and Learned Lord asks me, " Now, can I address the House now ?" A NOBLE Lean—The Lord Chancellor can speak. The Marquis of NORMANBY (with great warmth)—He cannot speak now ; and I can only say if he does do so, it will be taking a most unfair advantage of me.—( Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.) I walted till an intimation was conveyed to me by a Noble Friend that the Noble Lord would not speak, and then, exercising the privilege of every mover of a motion, I am now addressing your Lordships. If the Noble and Learned Lord wishes to make any remarks on the question, it is in his power to do it ; and if a majority of your Lordships bear him out in it, I will say it will be a most unheard-of proceeding.—( This was said with great energy, the Noble Marquis evidently being much excited. ) Lord KENYON rose to order. The right the Noble Mar quis claimed was by no means an invariable one ; it was not an invariable rule that a Noble Lord could:not make a speech on the question after the mover of a resolution had replied. But if the Noble Marquis understood that the Noble and Learned Lord did not mean to speak, he must confess he had a right to feel disappointed. The Marquis of NORMANDY—I do not think the Noble Lord has spoken to order. Lord BROUGHAM—It is to order.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) My Noble and Learned Friend has not heard any argument. The Earl of RADNOR called the Noble and Learnect Lord to order.--( Cheering. Hear, hear, and great laughter. ) Lord BROUGHAM—I speak to order. I entirely agree with the Noble and Learned Baron who spoke from the cross benches ( Kenyon). There is no rule of your Lordships' House that gives a natural right to the maker of a motion to close the debate, and if we do not oppose this new doctrine, it will have to be met hereafter, when it may not be so convenient. The courtesy of the House—contrary to the rule and order which prohibits two speeches from one Noble Lord during one debate, gives a reply to the mover of a resolution. But if I have heard it once, 1 have heard it a hundred times, that members of your Lordship's House have spoken after the reply. I have rn) self been replied to by half a dozen of your Lordships after a reply. The LORD CHANCELLOR rose, and in a voice that be trayed the excitement under which he spoke, said—My Lords, I wish to explain my position. I have been in my Court from ten o'clock this morning till nearly four ; I have sat here from five o'clock till nine, awaiting the return of the Noble Earl (Shaftesbury) ; the Noble Earl having arrived, I quitted the Woolsack only for five minutes, and during that period the question was put, and the Noble Marquis rose to reply.—( Hear, hear.) I have no desire whatever to address your Lordships ; the only reason why I should have wished to address a few words to your Lordships was that they might be explanatory of my own conduct, in con sequence of the imputations that have been cast on me.— (Hear, hear.) But I have been so nobly, so warmly, so heartily, defended by my Noble Friends—(Loud cheers)—that I shall never regret the accusations made against me. I have waited till this late hour in the evening, expecting that some of my Noble and Learned Friends would have risen for for the purpose of giving their opinions on the subject, intending to reply to them. As they have not done so, my Lords, I am quite satisfied with the decisive and triumphant arguments put forward by my Noble Friends, in opposition to the charges made by the Noble Marquis.—( Loud cheers. ) The Marquis of NORMANBY said he was glad the Noble and Learned Lord had stated the grounds on which he wished to have addressed the House. The facts of the case were, that a message was brought him by a Noble Lord, that the Noble and Learned Lord would not speak. The Noble Earl on the Woolsack (Shaftesbury ) then insisting that the question should be put, he rose to reply. The LORD CHANCELLOR—I did not intend to reply, except in answer to my Noble and Learned Friends.—( Hear, hear.) (His Lordship here began to put the question to the house, as if for immediate division.) The Marquis of NORMANBY (with great energy)—My Lords, I appeal even to those most opposed to me in politics, to say if ever there was a more unfair proceeding.—(Hear, hear, and cheers, from the Opposition.) I was addressing your Lordships, having first insisted on my right to do so. I then gave way, because the Noble and Learned Lord seemed to wish to defend himself. I sat down to give him !an opportunity of doing so, and he then puts the question.—( Hear. The LORD CHANCELLOR—I beg to set the Noble Marquis right. I said I did not wish to defend myself ; on the contrary, I said I did not intend to do so, considering it unnecessary, after the admirable defence made by my Noble Friends.—( Cheers. ) The Marquis of NORMANBY then proceeded with the reply on his motion, which had been so long interrupted. With respect to this motion, remarks had been thrown out to tho effect that it was couched in terms less strong than was at first intended. He had framed it according to the usage of their Lordships' House. It. was a motion for an inquiry into the state of Ireland, with a view to restore confidence in the GOvernment to the people of that country. He thought that every measure calculated to restore this con fidence was worthy of their consideration and inquiry. He adverted first to the state of the Church in Ireland as a cause of dissatisfaction. As a first step to remove this feeling, they ought to elevate the character of the Catholic priests, and re move the disqualifications which the Emancipation Act inflicted on the Catholic prelates. The discontent caused by the re striction of the franchise he eharged directly on the Govern went; a new arrangement of the representation of Ireland, as it was settled by Lord Castlereagh at the union, was rendered necessary by the Reform Bill in Ireland, which disturbed the relative proportions of the representation of the two countries. He charged the Government with a general ignorance of the present state of Ireland ; with the exception of the illustrious Duke, not one of the Government had any knowledge of that country ; he had noticed the exception that was made of Sir It. Peel; he was there only in other days.—( A Noble Lord, " Goulburn !") He defended what he had said of the appointment of Lord Eliot, and re peated his charge of a disregard of public opinion in the appointments of Baron Lefroy and Sergeant Jackson to judicial situations. These appointments, the giving all their clerical patronage to the most violent opponents of the national education system, and the selection of the Attorney- General, all proved that. ignorance of the state of public feel ing in Ireland of which he complained. He passed rapidly over the circumstances connected with the proclamation against the repeal meetings, stating that the Government was as much bound to notice the first of them as the last, and affirming that the preservation of the peace was mainly owing to the exertions of 111 r. O'Connell himself, from whom they had the least right to expect assistance. He was told that the motion was ill-timed; whenever there was more than usual interest felt by the people in the conduct of the Government, this was always the plea ; it was the old answer. But he believed that one of the likeliest means of restoring tranquillity to Ireland would be to adopt the resolution. He denied that it was brought forward from any wish to embarrass the Government; though he should not have been deterred from doing what he considered to be his duty by the fear of embarrassing it. Having replied to the as sertion made by Lord Roden, that they were then " reaping the fruit of the wholesale discharge of the gaols" made during his Government of Ireland, by showing that he remitted fewer sentences than the Lord-Lieutenant of 1823, and having justified his dismissal of Colonel Verner from the magistracy, (another of the charges made against him) for giving as a toast the " Battle of the Diamond," he proceeded to notice some of the observations made by another Noble Lord ( Howden) in the course of his speech. Ile hesitated, however, to allude to them in the absence of the Noble Lord, who was not in his place.— ( Cries of "Go on, go on.") The Noble Marquis still pausing on account of the ahsence of the Noble Lord— The LORD CHANCELLOR said—Speak of him, and he'll appear.—( Great laughter. ) The Marquis of NORMANBY then proceeded to notice the speech of the Noble Lord he had alluded to, (while he was commencing, Lord Howden entered the House from the library, whence he had been summoned.) He repeated that he had listened with great pleasure to the speech of the Noble Lord, which, from its manner, was a very agreeable one. But he had observed that nothing was more favourably received than a very sharp thing said by any person against those with whom he was supposed, to some extent, to agree.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord said that the motion was brought on with a particular object ; ho did not state what that Abject was. He (the Marquis of Normanby) certainly would not attribute any particular object to his Noble Friend, in making that remark. the e ure ro l el y din i ark it storyw whichhardlyasof ir he . o, w c rt ° h O'Connell the while of his Noble Friend, in thought nell it ahbisoudtuttyhetoolmdalkiaet,. to Thatrak w e u a p s a story told somewhere about ten years ago, and it was intended to apply to Earl Grey's Administration. Why it should be used by the Noble Lord (Howden), of whose support that Go vernment, and other Liberal Governments, had had the benefit in their policy towards Ireland, it was for the Noble Lord rather THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 16, 1844. than for him (Lord Normanby) to explain. Allusion had been • made to his ( Lord Normanby's) conduct in respect to the offer of the Mastership of the Rolls to . Mr. O'Connell. He ( Lord Normanby) begged to say, that he had never for one moment regretted making, that offer. The only regret he had ever experienced in reference to the matter was, that that Honourable and Learned Member had thought fit to decline accepting it. He most sincerely thought, that if Mr. O'Con. nell had accepted that appointment, it would have been one of the very best things that could possibly have happened for the prospective prosperity of Ireland. Had he known that the subject would have been alluded to, he would have brought down to the House a document in reference to the subject, being a let ter he had addressed at the time to the late lamented Mr. Drummond, and which being found amongst his papers by his widow, had been kindly forwarded to him a few days back. In that letter would have been found, in the fullest terms, the reasons on which he justified the offer that had been made, and the wide distinction which he had drawn, and ever should draw, between promoting a strong political partisan to a seat on the criminal and a seat on the equity bench.—( Hear, hear.) He had to express to the House the regret of a Noble and Gallant Friend of his, the Marquis of Anglesea, at sot having it in his power to address the House upon this subject. The Noble Marquis had been down on the last evening of the discussion, and in the early part of the present, with the intention of addressing the House, and nothing but the extreme suffering which he was enduring would have hindered him from so doing. His Noble Friend had, however, desired him (Lord Normanby) to express his cordial concurrence in the motion then before the House, and his approval of those measures of justice and conciliation which it was the wish of Noble Lords on that side of the House to see proposed and agreed to by Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) Before he sat down he wished to say one word as to the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. There were persons—good and sincere friends of Ireland—who were anxious to see the im mediate abolition of this office. He confessed that he was not amongst this class. He certainly looked upon that office as an anomalous one, but he looked to its abolition as the conciliating and crowning glory of those re medial measures which he still hoped to see enacted for Ire land.—( Hear, hear.) But it was his opinion that they began at the wrong end who wished to remove that, office at present. On looking back, he could not but admit the great practical benefit which had arisen from the office. Wheat he turned to the years which Lord Wellesley had passed there, he could not do otherwise than recollect with grateful satisfaction how his Viceroyalty had prepared the public mind for the relaxation of all those restrictive laws which had subsequently been eb tained. And no one could doubt that during the Irish admi nistration of his Noble Friend behind him (Earl Fortescue) that country had made rapid strides in the progress of civili sation.—( Hear.) In concluding the remarks he had thought it his duty to make, he wished he could en tertain any doubt as to the vote to which their Lord ships would come. As to what would ultimately be the result of the legislation for Ireland, any one who would look back to the history of his own times—unless, indeed, there should be an outbreak or civil war, the ultimate consequences of which, even to the victor, not only in character, but in every other respect, could only be conceived with horror—any o'de, he said, who would look back to the last twenty years could easily foresee. There must, and there would be, concessions of a large and a comprehensive character.—( Cheers.) The question was only one of time.—( Hear.) But these suspicions might now, as before, be so long postponed by the ob stinacy and perverseness of that House and the Government, that they, as in too many instances, by theirtardiness, would lose all their grace, and much of their good ; but he felt certain that concession, and ample, liberal concession, must be the result.— ( Hear, hear.) I say (concluded the Noble Lord) that upon us, at this, side of the House, devolves the duty to induce the people of Ireland to have patience, to bear meekly for a little while, and not to give up hope, for, of the ultimate results we have, and can have, no doubt; but upon you, and you alone (pointing to the Treasury Benches), rests the responsibility and the consequences of delay.—(Cheers. ) Lord BROUGHAM—My Lords—( Cries of " Divide, di vi'le")—l shall not detain your Lordship's more than a few moments.— ( Great uproar and cries of " No, no," " Divide, divide.") 111 y Lords, I only wish to say one word, one word to your Lordships on the extraordinary, the very extra ordinary position in which we are placed. When a motion was made the other night for an adjournment of this debate, I opposed it. I opposed it, my Lords, because I thought it was not desired by your Lordships, because I thought it unneces sary, totally unnecessary, since the debate could have been easily closed that night. But I was told " No." I was told it could not be closed, and I was further told that a Noble Lord, to hear whom 1 would at any time make any sacrifice whatever, wished to address your Lordships, and there fore, my Lords, I withdrew my opposition at once, and very cheerfully consented to the adjournment. But my Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Campbell) who moved the adjourn ment, who urged the adjournment, to whom I yielded the ad journment, and who ought to have opened the debate this even ing ; why, that Noble and Learned Lord has not spoken at , all ; but I don't mean to complain of that — ( Shouts of laughter) I —there is in that no ground of complaint—( Great confusion 1 and peals of laugtiter)—but I merely wished to call your Lord ships' attention to the extraordinary position we are in, and to the fact that the debate might just as well have been brought to a close on the other evening as on this. —( Great laughter, amidst which Lord Brougham resumed his seat on the Woolsack, which he had occupied nearly all the evening. ) Lord CAMPBELL rose, somewhat excited, and, amidst great uproar, and loud cries of " Divide."—Nothing, my Lords, said he, can be more irregular or more improper than the pro ceeding just adopted by the Noble and Learned Lord.— ( Laughter.) But, my Lords, there is nothing at all sur prising in this—nothing surprising in anything the Noble and Learned Lord does, for all his proceedings in this House are one tissue of irregularities.—( Laughter.) I moved the adjourn. ment, my Lords, because I thought the Noble and Learned Lord would have addressed you, and it was my intention to have followed him in the debate.—(Laughter.) I cannot be very much blamed for supposing that the Noble and Learned Lord intended to address you, at least once in the course of the debate—( Great laughter)—for lam sure (and lam under your Lordships' correction in stating it) that this is the very first debate, upon any subject whatever, that has taken place in your Lordships' House, since the Noble and Learned Lord had the honour of a seat in it, on which he has not addressed you—(Cheers and laughter)—and I believe it will be in your Lordships' recollection, as it is in my own, that upon one occasion the Noble and Learned Lord spoke no less than seven times.—(Shouts of laughter and great uproar.) What I thought, too, my Lords, was, that the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack would have addressed your Lordships, for there was a most serious charge advanced against the Govern ment for their conduct in t he recent legal proceedings in another place, and I na t urally thocght he would be ( Hear, heat.) But, m y L or d s , h e h as neither spoken by hims elf, nor by his counsel.—( Great anxious to possible repel meet it.—( _ that cheering and laughter.) He allows judgment to go by what lawyers call nil dicet. I hope, my Lord., this will be some excuse for me in your Lordships' eyes, for having moved this adjournment.—(Laughter.) The Noble and Learned Lord says he is not sorry that I have not spoken, and I believe him ; but he may depend upon it, I will not remain silent, for whenever he may choose to address your Lordships, he may rest assured I w ill follow him—(Laughter) —and will not fail to remind him of his departure—his entire and extra ordinary departure—from those principles, the advocacy and support of which made him once the pride and glory, nut only of his own country, but of the world —( Great sensation)—of those grand principle:, for the triumph of which he once so nobly battled with friends, whom it seems now to be his sole aim to oppose.—(Great uproar.) Lord BROUGHAM ( with ill-stilled passion )—lly Lords, I have been charged with irregularities. A charge, my Lords, more grossly untrue—( A burst of laughter)—more grossly untrue, my Lords—( Continued laughter)—more grossly unfounded, in point of fact, ihan that charge, it has never hap pened to me to hear, in the whole course of my life, even from the Noble and Learned Lord who has so rashly ventured to ad vance it.--( Uproar, and cries of " Divide, divide.") My Lords, I have a right, a perfect right, to address myself to your Lordships on this debate now or whenever I like to do so.— ( Laughter.) The rule of Parliament, my Lords, the rule of both the Houses constituting the Parliament of this country, and I have sat a longer time—a far longer time, my Lords, in both of them, than the Noble and Learned Lord who assumes to know so much more about them —( Great laughter)—is that every Member has a right to speak, and I have not spoken in the course of this debate. I have a right to speak whenever I think proper—either before the Noble Marquis ( Normanby) rose to reply, or after he had resumed his seat—for it is by courtesy alone that a Member is allowed to reply—( Hear, hear)—and now that he has replied, I have a right to speak to the whole question, if, as I have said, my Lords, I may think it right or expedient that I should do so.—(Laughter.) That is my undoubted privilege, my Lords, and one which no taunts of ignorant—(Great uproar)—which, I say, no taunts of ignorant new Nembers of Parliament, who do not know even the A J 3 C of the rules and privileges of this House—who show a degree of ignorance which I had thought it impossible for any person to display—no taunts whatever, especially when used by such persons as these, shall deprive me of my privileges as a Peer of Parliament.—( Cheers, and loud laughter.) But, my Lords, I ought perhaps to confess that, in now a second time addressing your Lordships, I am guilty of irregularity.—( Shouts of laughter.) But is this an irre gularity without excuse, or without example in this House, my Lords? Is it not the rule—a very wise and useful rule doubtless, my Lords—(Laughter)—of both Houses of Parliament, to waive the strict interpretation of their laws if an individual Member is unexpectedly charged with an offence, and to extend to him every indulgence and facility for justification ?—( Hear, hear.) And happy and rejoiced—most happy and most re joiced am I to find, my Lords, that for the first time in this House the vile and false charge that I have changed any prin ciples, deserted my ear ly o pinions and fallen away from my friends has been brought fairly forward against me—that those with whom I have acted as a party man for so many years—to me with no great advantage that 1 know of—(Laughter)—to their own great advantage, it may be said also—to whom I was a faithful, truthful, thoughtful, consistent, and unflinching sup porter—( Great uproar) —that because I was compelled to change my relations with them, when they ceased to hold those opinions which for so great a length of time we had been ac customed to hold in common—as I have again and again had to demonstrate in their presence, without a shadow of a pretext for such change of opinion from any one of them—( Great laughter and slight cheers) —happy am Ito find that this vile and false charge is promised at last to be distinctly brought against me. I defy, my Lords, any one of them to substantiate the slightest change or inconsistency in me— ( Uproar)—and I will give them the opportunity of doing so, depend upon it, now that they have selected the most powerful, experienced, judicious, and discreet Lord as the only champion whom they could call out of their ranks to bring against me.— ( Uproar.) Yes, my Lords, if I can devise the means. and I think I can do so, I will give to him, their counsel—( A Laugh) an opportunity to bring his charges against me ; and I will defy him and them to bring forward any one particular case in which I changed my opinions, or that I have abandoned any principle that I have ever once maintained —(Laughter.) The challenge, my Lord, is a large and c om p rehensive one, and the defiance is the same ; but I throw out that defiance, with the most perfect certainty that in the contest I must pre vail.—(Great uproar throughout the Honse.) Lord CAMPBELL again rose, amid g reat noise, lau g hter, and cries of " Divide," a " Adjourn." He said—The House need not be alarmed, for I will not detain it one moment. Whenever my Noble and Learned Friend—(Cries of " Oh, oh")—for such I will continue to call him, gives me an opportunity of entering upon these to p ics whe n a proper opportunity is offered me for going into them, let him be as o everything that I rsh rink from, the re sporisibibtyosfumred I will aintaini n ng o , t refuse, an proving,dof n have stated.—( Loud cheers.) It may happen, perhaps, that some others have changed, b u t whether he ( Lord Brougham) or they, is not now th e proper time to decide.—( Hear, hear. ) When the opportunity promised by the Noble and Learned Lord is offered to me, I beg to assure him and the House, that I certainly will not shrink from going into the question, and The LORD CHANCELLOR—MY Lords, before y our maintaining the position I have taken up.--(Cheers.) Lordships proceed to a division, I have one observation to make.—( Hear, hear.) It has been said that a grave charge was brought in the course of this debate against the Govern ment in respect of certain law proceedings which have been in stituted against certain parties in another place. My Lords, I have never heard such charge made, and, therefore, there is nothing that I have felt myself called upon to notice in this discussion. Such charges as were brought by the Noble Mar quis (Nermanby) against her Majesty's Government for their administration of justice in Ireland, I consider were most satis factorily answered by ray Noble Friends the President of the Council and the President of the Board of Trade in their ex cellent speeches.—( Hear, lwar.) For that reason, and being absent at the moment when the question was put, I did not feel called upon to address your Lordships, but had any charges been made upon us in respect to legal points in the conduct of the recent trials, I should certainly have been ready to meet them. That is the explanation I have to give. The House then divided, when there appeared — Contents present Proxies 78 Not Contents present Proxies 1.75 Mejority against the Motion —97 The motion was consequently lost. Their Lordships then adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 15. The STEALER took the chair at Four o'Clock. NEW MEMBERS. _ _ Mr SOTHERON, for North Wiltshire, and Mr. MAHER, for Tipperary, took the oaths and their seats. The lion. Members were introduced by Mr. M. J. O'Connell and Mr. Estcourt. Mr. WATSON presented a petition from a number of soli citors in the metropolis, complaining of the high amount of compensation given to the six clerks, whose offices, in the Court of Chancery, were abolished under the late Act, and praying the House to take the subject into its consideration. CORN-LAWS. Lord WORSLEY presented petitions from places in Lin colnshire and Scotland, complaining of the conduct of the Anti-Corn-law League, and praying that the House would not consent to any reduction of the present inadequate protection. AIETROPOLITAN BUILDINGS. The Earl of LINCOLN moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the better construction of buildings in the metropolis. COMMUNICATION WITH AMERICA. Sir VALENTINE BLAKE gave notice of his intention to bring under the consideration of the House a motion for a Select Committee to inquire into the expediency of promoting a more speedy communication between this country and Ame rica, by establishing steam carriages in connection with the grand canal across Ireland, and thence by steamer across the Atlantic. Sir R. PEEL was understood to state that the discussion of the question would be premature on the present occasion. ARMY IN IRELAND. Lord CLENIENTS gave notice that on Tuesday next he should move for a return of the salaries and stations of every officer who had been sent to Ireland on particular or secret service. Also for a return of the expense of the military and police force in Ireland during the year ; also, for a return of the expense of erecting barracks and police stations in that country ; and for several returns con nected with the registration of arms in Ireland. RAILWAYS. Mr. WALLACE gave notice that, on Thursday the 29th, he should call th , - attention of the House to the general state of railway communication throughout the United Kingdom. THE. CLONTARF MEETING. Colonel R A WDON gave notice that, on Thursday the 29th, he should call the attention of the House to the circumstances attending the issue of the proclamation against the meeting at Clontarf. He also gave notice that he should to-morrow move for certain returns connected with the expense of the army in Ireland. POOR-LAW. Mr. LIDDELL, on behalf of Lord Ashley, postponed the motion of the Noble Lord, which stood for this evening, re lating to the administering of relief to the sick poor. FACTORIES BILL. Sir J. GRAHAM moved the Order of the Day for the Committee on the Factories Bill, for the purpose of postpone ment till to-morrow fortnight. Mr. HINDLEY wished to know whether it was probable any further postponement would take place. He knew that many of the provisions of the Bill of the Right Hon. Baronet had given great satisfaction in the manufacturing districts. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said it was his intention to proceed with the Bill on to-morrow fortnight. The Committee on the Bill was then postponed. EDUCATION. Mr. WYSE moved that an address be presented to her Ma jesty praying that she would be graciously pleased to direct that the Minutes of Council taken upon the subject of education in Great Britain be laid before the House.—Agreed to. ELECTION COMMITTEES. The names of those Members of the House, who being sixty years •f age are exempted from serving on Election Committes, were called over. Sir R. PEEL moved for exemption from serving upon Elec' ion Committees as long as he had the honour of holding the office of First Lord of the Treasury.—Agreed to. Similar motions were made by Lord Stanley, Sir James Graham, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as long as they had the honour of holding their respective offices —Agreed to. Mr. GREENE moved for exemption from serving upon Committees as long as he continued to discharge the duties of Chairman of Committees on opposed private Bills.—Agreed to. The SPEAK ER called upon Mr. Hume.—(Laughter.) Mr. HUME—I -beg to be excused—(Laughter)—on ac count of age. PUBLIC BUSINESS. Mr. HUME wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentle man, the First Lord of the Treasury, when he would bring for ward the estimates ? Sir R. PEEL said he proposed following the course adopted during the last session, and would waive the right of proceeding with Government business, on Government nights, during the debate. Mr. HUNIE said he supposed the estimates then would come on on Monday. Mr. TRELAWNY postponed till Monday the motion of which he had given notice for a Select Committee to inquire respecting the Duchy of Cornwall. Mr. GIBSON also postponed his motion for a Select Com miVee for an inquiry into the laws relating to gaming. The other motions on the paper were also postponed. The Offences at Sea Bill was read a third time and passed. STATE OF IRELAND-ADJOURNED DEBATE. Mr. ROSS rose to move the Order of the Day for the ad journed debate. He said he was heartily in favour of the proposition of the Noble Lord (John Russell) for a Select Committee to inquire into the causes of discontent and dis affection which prevailed in Ireland. He had listened with great attention to what fell from Honourable Gentlemen oppo site; but he confessed that although he heard some intimation of measures which were not only unobjectionable, but even having some amount of good in them, still he had heard no thing from the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, of a disposition to remove the complicated maladies of Ireland, or any intimation of an intention to deal out that measure of justice which had been so long and so ear nestly sought.—( Hear, hear.) He thought, therefore, that the interference of this House was more than ever essentially necessary to the welfare of Ireland—indeed, for the safety of the whole empire.—( Hear, hear.) So little did the Right Hon. Gentleman seem to regard the complaints of the Irish people—so little did he attend to their rights, that he was at issue with the great body of the people of that country—with the majority of their representatives, who constituted a formid able minority in that House—(Hear)—with a great mass of the people of England and of Scotland, and with all the world who are spectators, to whom his policy in Ireland appeared to be in explicable. It must appear inexplicable and astonishing to any foreigner who read our history, to observe that after a connexion of six centuries, and a nominal incorporation of forty-three years, no real union or consolidation of interests had taken place. It must be astonishing, that with the opinion of statesmen and of sages in favour of a more con ciliatory course, with the experience of recent events as well as of past history, the Right Hon. Gentleman was obsti nately bent upon persisting in the unfortunate course, that was calculated to fill the whole civilised world with astonishment. The vast empire of India was governed by an attention to its welfare ; and even the late aggressions upon the frontier were accompanied with promises of amelioration and conciliation ; but in Ireland, to this moment, no such promise was held out. It was impossible to doubt that a proper exer cise of moral power would pacify Ireland in a month.—( Hear, hear.) The Legislature of this country was absolute, and for the tranquillization of Ireland the will alone was wanting. An experiment was tried a year ago, and was eminently successful. The feelings of his (Mr. Ross's) countrymen were soothed by the impartial, just, and gentle administration of the laws.— ( Hear, hear.) The gaols were empty—the soldiers useless. If the Government had continued in that course, and had en larged the boundaries of popular rights, the same tranquillity would have continued. It happened during that time that this country became involved in difficulties with one of the colonies ; and, in allusion to that subject, a Noble and Learned Lord in the other House quoted from Mr. Fox a passage, to which he (Mr. Ross) would refer, and which had previo us l y been cited by a Noble Lord in this House ( Lord John Russell). He had no doubt that the Noble Lord conceived the use made of the quotation was more able than just.—( Hear, hear. ) The Hon. Gentleman then read an extract:from a speech of Lord Brougham's, and went on to ask where was that parental care exhibited for Ireland of which the Noble and Learned Lord had spoke—whose complaints were now unheeded—whose hopes disappointed ? Were they those of the people of Ireland ? And with respect to the political leader of that people, Mr. O'Connell, he must say, it was unfair to charge him with want of sincerity in his endeavours to serve his country. The men who were called " O'Connell's police" were appointed in good faith to preserve peace and order at the repeal meetings, and very successful they were in carrying out that object. He repeated, he believed that Mr. O'Connell was perfectly sincere, and it was a very hard thing iryleed to proceed against him by criminal prosecution for his exertions. Had he not frequently said, that ono drop of blood would be too dear a price for any good he could obtain ? and upon what ground, he asked, would Honourable Gentlemen charge Dlr. O'Connell with being a hypocrite, and say that his words were smoother than oil, but that his thoughts breathed nothing but violence ? [Here the Honourable and Learned Member for Cork (Mr. O'Connell) entered the House. His first ap pearance at the door was the signal for a loud and enthusiastic burst of applause from all the Members of the Opposition, which, as well as those on the Ministerial benches were much crowded. The cheers as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman walked up the floor of the House, were renewed again and again, and as he took his seat in his usual place, Mr. Hume and several other Hon. Gentlemen around crowded forward, and shook him warmly by the hand. Mr. _Ross, who was addressing the House, was then about to resume his observations, when the apilause again burst forth, and was continued for some seconds, when A Lr the ß o e s x c s i t proceeded e c n e d ceased Lk, was it wise in them to treat the man who had been received in the way in which Mr. O'Connell was received at that moment, as they had treated him ?—(Loud cheers.) They might put him in a gaol.—.( Loud cheering.) How much safer would they be if they did so ?—( Cheers. ) What security would there be if he declared—( Continued cheering, and cries of " Oh, oh.") He treated this as a political question. He asked them to pursue the same course in Ireland which they had pursued in Canada.—(Cheers, and Hear, hear. ) Had they well considered the consequences of alienating the Irish people. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the Arms Bill, the only consequence of which was that it caused alarm and consternation in Ireland, and all persons were anxious to procure arms. He knew himself a clergyman of the Established Church, who went about the country procuring arms for the Orangemen, and large collections of arms and ammunition were made for them on the easy terms of paying for them by instalments. He believed that the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland was aware of this. In one place 3,000 arms had been registered. What, then, ought to be done in such a state of things ? In the first place. he thought that the religion of the majority of the people of Ireland ought to be scrupulously regarded. The affections of the people ought to be cultivated, and every abuse ought to be found out with a keen eye, and cut away with a firm hand. Such were the means they ought to adopt instead of fruitlessly scattering the revenue of the country in supporting troops in Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the opinion of Lord Bacon, who, after giving a very flattering de scription of the fertility of Ireland, and her bold, hardy, and active population, said that they ought to unite the hand of man with the hand of nature to elevate and raise her. An Hon. Gentleman said last night that the discontent of Ireland was owing to the physical discontent of her people. He denied that that was the fact. No doubt it was one cause ; but the poorer classes of Ireland were not those who were most discontented. It was the educated class who felt themselves to be inadequately repre sented and who were most discontented. Notwithstanding what had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman to explain the striking off of the Catholics from the panel, he confessed that he was not altogether satisfied. He was not satisfied that the proper measures had been taken with respect to Mr. Dunn; and with regard to Mr. Hendrick, some charge appeared to be hanging over him which no one could guess at. 1 he people of Ireland were discontented at the manner in which justice had been administered. It was not very gratifying, and could not be very satisfactory to the people of Ireland for him, the Lord Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench, to say that he spoke under correction of the counsel for the Crown. That was not language which, in his opinion, ought to be used by so high a judicial functionary. There was no medium or safe course between a government of, conciliation and a government of violence. He did not believe that her Majesty's present Government contemplated a government by force fir any length of time ; and as to the other course, that of conciliation and concession, he knew it would be very disagreeable to them and to those who supported them ; it would require great patience, great moderation, and some considerable sacrifice, but they must make up their minds that Ireland must be a Popish country. He knew that it was difficult, but they must make up their minds to it—not less than had been done in Scotland, of which country the institutions were in many respects at greater variance with the Anglican Church than with the Roman Catholic.—( Hear.) They must arrive at equality. They must not remain in addition, substraction, and division ; to arrive at equality, they roust go to the rule of proportion—to the rule of three.—( Laughter.) But by no posssibility could they reconcile the present state of the Church to the feelings of the people or to justice. Could they by possibility make up their minds to go the length which he, and others on his side of the Raise, thought they ought to go, they wool no longer have to say that Ireland was their difficulty.—( Loud cheers ) The Hon. Member sat down amidst much cheering, in which his concluding sentence was quite lost. Mr P. BORTHWICK said that in the able speech which the House had just heard, the Honourable Gentleman did not say what remedies he would propose in the social, civil, or ecclesiastical institutions of Ireland. If the Hon ourable Gentleman proposed to establish the Roman Ca tholic Church in Ireland as the Presbyterian Church was established in Scotland—and he ( Mr. Borthwick) thought that by far the most equitable and feasible arrangement—yet he believed that the Hon. Member would have no more determined opponent to such a proposition than the Noble Lord who sat beside him ( Lord John Russell). With respect to the late trials, he must confess that he had looked upon it with dread. He thought that one result of it must be that it would increase the influence of the Libe rator, who would now be regarded by the people net merely as an agitator, but as a martyr in their cause. However, it would have this advantage, that it would enable the Government to advance to Ireland with measures of conciliation, when they were in a condition to say that concession had not been extorted by intimidation—when they had put an end to those multitudinous meetings which disquieted Ireland, and, he might say, alarmed Europe. What benefit did they expect would arise from a debate on the sufferings of Ireland in that House ? Why, none what ever—or rather the effect of a debate, which would be nothing but an interchange of charges between the opposing parties, would be but to embitter the animosities which dis tracted that country and add to the fuel that consumed it. That would be the effect of a debate, and not a remedy for the evils of the country. The Honourable Gentleman who had spoken last said that Mr. O'Connell was perfectly sincere in his desire to benefit his country. He (Mr. Borthwick) for one never had the slightest doubt that the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork in his long career had only in view the good of his country. But he was not to judge of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's motives, but of the results of his career, and if he were asked whether it were better to assist the Minister of - the Crown in proposing re medial measures for Ireland, or aid in taking from that House the power of legislating for that country, he could have no hesi tation in giving the preference to the former course. With re spect to the motion of the Noble Lord (J. Russell), he must certainly oppose it, because no goo d to Ireland could result from it. Suppose that, instead of Lord Normanhy, an Orange man had been Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, would it not have been considered very unfair to quote the opinions and policy of such an ultra-Lord-Lieutenant, as a precedent for future Lord-Lieutenants. He craved permission of Hon. Gentlemen opposite to consider that sympathy for the people of Ireland was not entirely confined to themselves—they should give Hon. Members on this side of the House credit for acting, according to their honest convictions. No measure could be more calcu lated to confer any practical benefit on the Irish people than the motion of the Noble Lord, nor hardly any measure more productive of mischief.—( Hear) No favourable issue could be anticipated from it, and he felt it to be his bounden duty to give that motion his most strenuous opposition. And in:so doing he would not be actuated by any motive of indifference or dis like to the interests of the people of Ireland, and he sincerely wished that the government of that people might be carried out in the spirit of affection and good-will, in such a manner as would secure ultimate peace and prosperity to that country. There was adisposition on the other side of the House, to attri bute every vote given in favour of Ministers to a hatred of Ireland—that was a most unjust aspersion. The Noble Lord had alluded to the term " aliens," used by the Lord Chancellor. Ho thought sufficient explanation had been given to the House that that word had not been used in an invidious sense. The Eng lish were aliens in the same sense as the Irish were in the way Lord Lyndhurst had used the word.— ( Hear, hear.) They were aliens to the Irish as the Irish were to them. He could hardly wonder at strong expressions having been used by the Hon. Member for Cork, when the Noble Lord, the Member for London, condescended to have recourse to such paltry party sub. terfuges. The agitator was no longer the Member for Cork, but the Noble Lord, the Member for the city of Lon don. Agitation had been transferred to the benches opposite. The Hon. and Learned Member for Cork had been received in that House in a spirit of good-will. He participated in that spirit. But as they sat in that House as legislators, he was of opinion those who so received him after his conviction must be inimical and hostile to the good of the State.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Borthwick) had the greatest respect for the abilities of that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and he believed he was sincere in the policy he pursued, though he was net very cour teously received even by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself, when on one occasion he said so. Now that the law had been vindicated, he did not wish he should receive any punishment.—( Hear, hear.) 'I he people of Ireland would now perceive that the language addressed to them by Mr. O'Connell was not to be tolerated. They would see he was not to be a Viceroy over her Majesty, and was not to supersede both Houses of Parliament. He thought the empire owed the present Government a debt of gratitude for putting down the agitation, and he now hoped that they would follow it up, by developing the great resources of prosperity in Ireland, and would pull up all those noxious weeds which would tend to foster any similarly obnoxious agitation. Sir H. WINSTON BARRON said ha did not rise for the purpose of answering the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, but he rose to ask whether, after this country had pos sessed Ireland for 100 years, they were still determined to keep herby a military occupation ? The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, confessed that she was to be so held, and no Hon. Gentleman denied it. Now he would ask in sober sadness, as an Irishman—of the people of England, of the people of Scotland, the people of Wales, of the whole civilized world, whether this was a state of things which could be borne by any men of spirit who had hearts to feel or hands to act? He did not say it by way of menace, but he asked them did they think the people of Ireland ought to submit to it ? They would not submit to be kept in military bondage by any nation.— ( Cheers.) You would not submit to it yourselves. You extracted Magna Charta from one King, and you brought another—he would not then inquire whether justly or no—to the block, because he attempted to encroach upon your liber ties ; and when you would not submit to be tyrannised yourselves, do you think the people of Ireland will submit to it ?—( Cheers. ) It was not in human nature to submit to it, and the people of Ireland would not long submit to it. He would never join in any armed opposition to the laws of the land—he would never unite in any military array against the Government, if such arose in the country; but did they think that seven millions of Irishmen had the same reasons for not doing so which he had ? The country was poor and distracted—it was in a state approaching to disor ganization. They had many grievances to complain of, as he was prepared to show, upon the authority of men possessed of large fortunesin the country—men of rank—men who seldom mix themselves up in politioal agitation. A petition had been presented to Parliament by men representing property amount ing, at least, to LOO,OOO/. or 600,000 e a-year. The Hon. Gen tleman then referred to the petition agreed to at Charlemont House, and setting forth the grievances of the country. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the address of the Irish Mem bers at the close of the last session of Parliament. They set forth the grievances of the country, and, amongst other things, they complained that the resources of the country were not developed. This, in his opinion, was one of the greatest evils afflicting Ireland. The second demand of the Irish represen tatives last year was, the recognition of perfect equality with regard to ecclesiastical and educational arrangements between the several religious classes into which the population of Ireland is divided ; the third was a more ample representation; the fourth, a franchise adequate to giving full expression to public opinion ; the fifth, an assimilation of municipal rights in both countries ; the sixth, that Ireland should participate more largely in the benefit of the public expenditure. That was a matter which had been sadly neglected by the British Legisla ture—by English Chancellors of the Exchequer—and by none more than by the Right Hon. Gentleman, whom he saw oppo site. The seventh demand was, that, in the administra tion of the Government, the profession of the Roman Catholic faith, should be no longer a ground virtually, as it had ceased to be one legally, of exclusion from official situations. And on this subject he must advert to the anomalous position in which Ireland found herself. There was not a place of honour and emolument there which was not filled with men totally ignorant of, and unconnected with, Ireland—men who first set their foot on the soil of Ireland when they went to fill 4 situation there. Then, with respect to legislative representation, Ireland was entitled to at least 130 Members. Why, he asked, should not Ireland have as many voters, in proportion to her population and resources, as Eng land? Were not the voters in that country as independent, and as worthy of the franchise, as the voters in England? Were they not rather more independent, for it was a well-known fact that a tenant in England never ventured to vote against the wishes of his landlord, while, in Ireland, the voter invariably voted according to his conscience. He knew an instance of his position with respect to the English voter, which bore him out in his assertion. In a county of England with which he was acquainted, a Noble Lord possessed an estate, the tenants upon which always voted for a Whig candidate at elections, because the Noble Lord was of Whig principles. The heir who afterwards inherited the estate was of opposite principles, and what was the consequence ? Why, the tenants voted at the last election for the Conservative candidate, a thing they never did in their lives before. With respect to taxation, which was a matter of the utmost importance in an inquiry into the state of Ireland, very erroneous statements were very in dustriously circulated. A writer, in whom Honourable Gen tlemen opposite seemed to have great confidence, had written a pamphlet on this subject, which was filled with mis representations from beginning to end. He meant the late work of Mr. Montgomery Martin. By such productions Englishmen were led to believe that Ireland did not bear a fair share of the taxation of the empire. But he would cite the opinions of men whose authority on the subject certainly could not be outweighed by that of Mr. Montgomery Martin, how ever much Hon. Gentlemen opposite might think of that per son. Lord Fitzgerald, the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer in the year 1816, when proposing the consolidation of the Ex chequers of the two countries, stated that Ireland had, in the sixteen years that elapsed since the union, paid 78,000,000/. in taxation, which was 47,000,0001. more than she was bound to pay; and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), in the year 1822, stated that it was then al lowed, on all hands, that the contribution to the taxation of the empire of two-seventeenths from Ireland, %vas more than she was able to bear. Mr. Leslie Foster bore similar testimony as to Ireland's being overburdened with taxation. Had the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government no remedy to offer for such a state of matters ? He ( Sir H. Barron) believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman was placed in a false position with respect to Ireland. He believed him honest in his intentions and opinions, but he was diametrically opposed to the party who su pp orted him in that country, and how then could he ho ld office with honour to himself and benefit to the country while such was the case. The Right Hon. Gentleman ought to retire from office when he found he could not benefit the country by his administration, or he ought to adept measures of a really beneficial nature. The trade and manufacture s of Ireland had been de clining apace ever since the union. The Hon. Baronet then quoted extracts from the speech of Dr. Bo ton, a Conserva tive, in order to show that the tr ade and manufactures of Ire land hail declined since the union. The Doctor said that the imports and exports of Ireland had vastl y diminished, that thousands of people were out of employment, and had not the slightest means of obtaining their daily bread. Was it not the business of a great statesman to prevent the ontinuance of such a state of things without attempting a remedy? Public work& such as railroads, opening the mines and collierie:, and cling ing waste lands, should be set on fort. 'I he condition of this people was getting worse froni year to year, and by cons's. quence, crime had increased, for, in the year the Whigs went' out of office, it required only a military torce of 13,000, now double the number are requisite. The Irish yeople should be governed, not by the sword, but by enlisting their affections He was sorry to say that those newspapers which were said to represent the Irish Government, such as the Mail and the Packet, were continually pouring out the vilest abuse on the Catholic people and their clergy; and these attacks were echoed on this side of the Channel by the 'limes, which used such phrases as " surpliced ruffians," and a " demon priest hood." He did not attribute the feelings which gave birth to them to the English people. God forbid. He did not • believe the sensible portion of the English people were actuated by such feelings. But what were they to say to the declamations at Exeter-hall—what were they to say to the printed emanations of that assembly whieh were circulated through hundreds of thousands of the people 0 England and Ireland, and which contained such expressions ass " the awful perjury of the Catholic Bishops of Ireland," and' " the repeal of the fatal Emancipation Act ?"—( Hear, hear.) He regretted that some Englishmen lent themselves to such disgraceful proceedings, and participated by their presence and approbation in such heinous slander of their fellow-subjects. 'The appointments in Ireland of the present Government had been most objectionable. Chief Justice Pennefather, one of these appointments, had lately distinguished himself by what was aptly termed a speech to evidence. An Irish barrister, who was not at all interested in the fate of the traverserss described the charge as " a speech to evidence," and as being still more exceptionable in its manner of delivery than in its matter. He said there never was a more disgraceful exhibition at the Irish bar. This same Chief Justice Penne father had, in charging a jury, a short time ago, in a prosecu tion for libel against the editor of a Dublin newspaper, actually told the ju'y that what they were about to try was a most dia bolical libel. Then, as regarded the appointments of Baron Lefroy, and Mr. Justice Jackson, they, trio, were highly excep tionable. Why, the Duke of Northumberland would not let Sergeant Lefroy go on circuit on account of his violent politics; and the appointment of Sergeant Jackson was equally objec tionable, for the same reasons. He did not deny that both were very upright, honourable men, but they were totally unfit for the situations they now filled. The dismissal of the ma gistracy was a most unwise step, particularly the dismissal of the stipendiary magistrates, in whom the people justly placed confidence.—( Hear, hear.) But what could he say to the State trials, a packed jury, a pistol Attorney-Ge neral, and a Judge Jeffreys, as an Englishman had wittily remarked to him (Sir H. W. Barron) ? He asked, in the name of the people of Ireland, and in the name of every thing sacred and dear to man, that that people might be go• verned on principles of equity, impartiality, and justice, and that the present system of ascendancy and misgovernment might cease for ever.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. J. W. REPTON opposed the motion of the Noble Lord, and thought that the Government had acted wisely regarding the Irish State prosecutions. He would not detain the House longer than to say one word with respect to the Catholie priest hood. He was a sincere member of the Church of England? but he thought that any attempt to oppose the Catholic clergY would be insane, for it would create an agitation more for midable than that which had just been put down.—( Hear.) Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that in the whole coutv 1 of this debate, which involved so much the character of the Government, the House had heard no expression of opinion orn the part of any member of the Government connected with . , Ireland, except a Lord of the Irish Treasury (Mr. Young). —( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Secretary for the Horne Department, indeed, had declared his views with respect to the future government of Ireland. He had spoken out. He had told them that lie was determined to govern that country in & constitutional manner, but that it had always been occupied by force, and must be governed by force. So far as Ireland was concerned the " dodging" system was given up, and th e Liberal party would know how to act. He hoped the Irish Liberals would unite with those of this country, and no longer divide their strength.—( Hear, hear. ) The Right Hon. Ba ronet plainly told his intentions about Ireland, but he said Ile' thing of his views respecting the commercial policy of England. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had not used the wo , d 6 that Ireland should he governed by force. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL—If the Right Hon. Gentleman did not say so in precisely these words he said so substantiallye He said it was absolutely necessary to maintain the Establishe d Church, and lie was determined to do so. Now, surely that was anintimation of his determination to rule by force, for the Established Church could not be maintained otherwise than by force.—(Cries of " No, no, no," from the Ministeria l benches.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman had gone further, he did say that Ireland had alwas been occupied by force, and if he (Mr. O'Ferrall) had not remembered exactly the words which followed, their meaning was certainly to the effect, that the Government must he maintained by force. Force was ne cessary to maintain the Established Church in its present fall position. No one could deny that the ministers of that Chloe', interfered very materially with secular affairs.—( Hear, hear .) He had known cases in which clergymen had recommended 0 ' the landlords that they should get rid of their Catholic tenant' and fill up their places with Protestants—( Hea r , hear)--an there was, therefore, a strong feeling among the peasantry in that country, that they should be dispossessed of their farms t ° make room for Protestants. The clergy placed the m ' selves in an anomalous st a te, an d h e b e li eve d tha t the half secular, half reli g i ous , c h aracter o f t h e Church was the great cause of the excited state 'of that con" try. Now let the House consider what was the effect of the with respect to the certificates ? If he (Mr. More law O'Fer rall) had occasion to prove, in a court ofjustice, that he was s Christian, a certificate of baptism from a Roman Catholic.. priest would not b e l ega l ev id ence ; an d t h e same ru l e a pOht` to the certificates of marriage.—( Hear, hear, hear.) So wi of respect to the registration of wills, no matter in what part the country a man may live, he •must register his will in th e diocesan courts, and everybody knew in what way the h u h ; siness of those courts was neg l ec t e d. N ow , thi s was a Ifit re ;', secular matter, and th ere was no occas i on w h a t ev er .(.'" the clergy to interfere in it, as there was already an establish' mcnt for registration in Dublin, which worked very well.' d ( Hear, hear.) He thought th a t th e Lib era l par t y i n I r elan ought to unite with the English Liberals, upon such a V e ra tion as the repeal of the union. He never did, and never wo u l d conceal his opinions upon that question. But this he wu u say, that the result of the union must be this, that Engla n d must be lowered to the condition of Ireland, er Ireland raqto to the condition of England.—(Hear.) The condition o f I 0 people of this country was much worse since the union, and,wstt becoming worse from year to year. The emigration, of i iri a labourers into this country had increased from year to yer , the was increasing; and if something was not done to rai se lia i Irish from their present poverty, the degradati o n of the Eng, t labourer would go on increasing. He said this to show th at , e , was not Irishmen alone, but every man i n that 11°‘ 1 ? 1 , 0 " and every man in England, was interested in proving the condition of the Irish peop l e —(Cheers/, Gentleman opposite cheered, as if th e y agree d i n th a t oPi la °, - r —(Cheers.) If they did so, w hy, th en , not ta k e the steps to effect it ?—( Hear, hear.) It might be prejudiebeey and to a great extent he admitted it was—to think that t e o f were not disposed to do so. But the measures they slt e ars adopting were but littl e ca l cu l a t e d f or t h e purpos e.— ( Gra . hear.) Certainly the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sr Jame , ,;70 ,g ham) proposed to give th e C a th o li cs th e p ower of endo_ ca , their own Church, but it was to be bo rne i n m i n d that tili.hor tholics had already, and richly endowed their Church. .!_ ht ef had built churches in every parish. They had establitlieir throughout the country rich ecclesiastical foundations, bu t n to churches and church lands were taken from them and g i ! n e tl , the Protestant clergy ; and in many of those churches , t o most extensive parishes, no service was at this day celenretoa by the clergy who possessed them. Now, what securitYlv e„ of the Catholics of Ireland have that if they availed theill' e e "tes' the proposed law a similar plunder mightnot again be Pe r r ioe elt ted ? The Right Hon. Gentleman also promised to int ro 6ifer measure for the better registration of voters, but he (Mr' b a t i t rall);would not say anything of its merits until he knew "'Bight' was. But he understood, from a newspaper report, that the to p- Hun. Baronet had said to a friend of his that the enoter lased division of the counties would stren g then the 'rola est.—(Cheers and laughter.) It had been complain bat e the subject of the late State Trials ought not t? i , visa been introduced in this discussion ; but he thought thet.,,,ratioe not possible to have omitted it in the coo b eet' of his Noble Friend's motion. Now, what ha t w as the effect of those trials upon public opinion ? I% e ar the opinion of the public as to the constitution of th re Catholics were rejected, and it was said that they w, ej : they jetted, not because they were C a tholi c s, but beel t r., w ere were Repealers ; but the fact proved otherwise, for the y 0 not Repealers.—( Hear, hear. ) Yet if they had he'';' l ;aseu: that society, why were the members of the society i n d veri street not objected to, when it was known that they strong feelings against the accused? To this it had beg JOY swered, that it was difficult to get an imparL ia in Ireland. But that ought to have h e en sidered, by those who asserted it, a go od , bea che s : 4 for having no trial at all.—(" Oh, oh," from the Tor ou lds7, What, th e se'', had been the case ?—(Hear, hear.) if he man believe that it had been a fair conviction ? 00 1c1 O tie O'Ferrall) thought that it was a fair conviction, h e t had t a a honestly owned it in that House. The trial had n° if it h . ., effect that it was intended, and ought to have had. s ets wo ve been shown to the people of Ireland that the travecrouid hall tried in a fair and satisfactory way, the conviction,' , t It ce produced an immense moral effect, but the only enF:trationthe now have would be to create distrust in the adm ini l tha t ,- the law, and the universal belief of the Peq t e o ens 019 proceedings were all unfair from beginning Carta,o ( Hear, hear.) There was a strong fee"nEopenca 0 he that the accident which happened to the jury list ; beet. purpose. He did not think so, nor did he saY'_ d been th e would say that great and cu lp a bl e ne gligence ha oak °f oa r hibited.- e --( Hear, hear.) H e did no t wish to 'P t hat, ier e .Attorney-General in his ab sence , b u t he would s a Y e f ble"‘ 0 0 , the beginning to the end, there had been a o' tein i a suc il D e e ee trig highly discreditabl e . Th ere was no thing a l a rela itie , duct of law proce e di ngs i n I re l an d. There h ".„ au tho r t aa an indisposion on the p ar t o f th e j u d ges a nd the lair c o url 6, - • So he of the Crown to apply to the practice of the 50 . , ,tl principle of justice and good sense which prevaln. ip ministration of the Criminal law in Engla n to g eshiP to English lawyer was appointed to a o raetl ee d dig Ireland. He found that it was the juries fon° t oy the Criminal Courts there that the grand oa t O a the bills of indictment upon written evidence and s trat ed 01' Eng trig the witnesses.—( Hear, hear.) He rent wi e d the - 16 5- subject with his brother judges, and recommend But she_ f o r practice of examining viva voce before the jury-any c han t $o so judges replied that there was no necessity f or h o er the Irish mode was good enough for Ireland..—.(:'n the practice continued to the year 1816,_!cu t an d Ot e /itten proposed a Committee to inquire into the sulatee s '— o n 11 , 1 ; in ported that the practice was to find i n d i ctment of ur , e 0 evidence in all cases excepting tha was cotu t th 9, which the unfortunate female who was injuredal to o e e feositis a to go before the jury ; and he brought in 15 “ tO f r o law in that respect, and to require the indictOw ... " ...no ,ttloP i.y fr o!: upon examination. But he met the greatest an e un eei o u t o all the authorities connected with Ireland, Horst ration br e ; a d alter 6„d the juries. However, the nezt year Mr. his law, and in Committee there was only :?" ° __ iria the , i ti t t re" in it, by the introduction of a clause !..1 . 1: e r,'7 .ts r e ' iae o ut the dnced by Lord Castlereagh, but upon written evidence in some cases t . worst clause in the Bill, and that they m us s t ire. tf, Lati g s r. o was ih spate.. it veal fish House of Lords by Lord I- llenborough, who sa n i o d . t i t, the .„ r a . l6 ) gentlemen so much rope as they would desire' u ' dgei s e 13 ,2 " , i g e a Ile also introduced a clause directing that t.tte c 4,,, coed t Act said, tha t ti de' lie explain this othrbisurßyi,llintoexthpeougnrdaiTgl j t u h r e ies A . c c . c r o , r , o;:s h . e .'„ T a r b ae d , to Ireland in attacking the reputatio I , uo ,hte 1 0 Ir . Injury compelling jurors to examine witnesses. —(L'" pract ice bad mentioned this to show that it was not a ne w TheY,,lan land to interpret the law against the prisone a rs; ,_„, in P,7., the admission; of one of the judges that what sv i .. la The y f ; 00 . 0 in favour of the accused, was not law in Ireand the Chic had °l' ll severity—almost the animosity with which they mi addressed the jury.—( Hear, hear, hear.) o f the :-.rough O' seen another difference between the practict i l we re tile° courts and that of the Irish. If two lln n e," one of ins before a magistrate in England, a o n ould be d dared to challenge the other, he . reme rnbert.:,,,rt y ° 9 diately committed to prison. He din the o ffaa ,l o , case of a gentleman who, being examined A c ell be fe ur Queen's Bench here, in what he conceived box: . antimaner, as soon as lie was dismissed fro _t s ' el. a n ..ope rlf: " ree-cornered note" to the offending COO ve ry 1 .. , h0 re • hours he was sent to Newgate—(llear) a Hear-)''' However, that was not the case in Ireland—(