The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-14 00:00:00

empartiality, and grant to t h e people of Ireland what they were •cleirly entitled to, he should not despair of the Roman Catholics i'dbilise heart and hand with such a proposition. For the pre. sent, he thought that everything should be done to improve the Colleg e of Illayneoth—( Hear, hear)—and that double the amount that vests at present allowed by the Government t i r !, that esneolishment ought to be granted to it. iib_heeerra,toehl to be greater means given to colleges at which education could be derived. When he spoke of a rst education, and when he spoke of the Roman Catho los of. Ireland, he must say that he was not one of those who 'thought it at all necessary that Roman Catholics should be taken from a higher class of society, or that they should b e . rig to a diffsrent class to that to which they at present be tinged. lie thought there was a great defect at present iu their education. Still, however, there was a principle in the B oman Cath lie Church einieb was not unworthy of any 'other Christian Church, by which a person, however low, 'could rise to eminence in the Chteech. Such, then, were his opini o p i nions with respect to this subject. All that he would do ons Present would be to improve the system of education in Ireland and to gi ve l arger sums towards it. He thought they 'lught, to g were give the same advantages to th e R oman C at h o li c tle rg.r• as possessed by the clergy of the Protestant lear e t • At 0 ".1 events, he thought those derogatory distinc !tens oug ht ne w . to be taken from the Roman Catholic clergy. •..e eis_ Ild not the bishops be allowed to call th emse l ves b y • ss'ae of the diocese over which they were placed?—( Hear. ) t e 'bought it was an unwise and a foolish thing not to allow re ern to do so. Why should not Dr. Murray be called the iciopan Catholic Archbishop of Ireland ? He w . as the A.rch tiesbop of Ireland. His character was held in the highest estima.- t;'", althens, , h he had not received much countenance from 'Se Lord Lieutenant of Ireland: If there was any advantage nosyeegOttenrchbs b t he: Act of Union to the Protestant Church, which gi to the Catholic Church and the l'resbyterian Ins • should at once be abolished. There still re /fa:libel. the question of the E tablished Church in Ireland. believed that Archbishop Whately had put. forward a plan 44 'take the Church a Church of cangregations and not a !t}lurch of parishes. They had heard lastyear that even where With here Isere two l'rotestants in a parish, a minister was endowed a sufficient income to attend to the spititual wants of t b o se two persons. In that parish there might have been 3,000 5,003 Cathol es, and it would be evident that no parochial listribution could fairly be made. Another instance was stated ..,ali.ntiysteearr. In a parish, where there were 1,000 Protestants, a 'Ts,trucreasedw. as appointed with 1001. a-year. In such a ease as he thought the income of the minister ought to have been He thought the income of the Irish Church was og re than any Church on the Continent possessed. They had, ° bent 450,0001. as a perpetuity fund. How this large 441" tit was applied be was at a loss to imagine. By the &boll . 4' l of the 25 per cent, of the tithes of the clergy, a sum of '° oo l. had been saved. Had this sum gone to the exten- Z Oll of spiritual instruction—had it. gone to the extension of idlueation ? No, it had gone to benefit the landlords. He ,tet!ught, therefore, that if they could diminish the income of e '''' clef for such a purpose, they might at least do -0 to advance spiritual instruction and education. He came .12 "" Th e , 0 the most important question of all, namely, e. ‘ of landlord and tenant. He would refer the House . to the 61:teltient made by Mr. O'Connell on this subject, and if that ie f l enient were founded on truth, it became incumbent on that Aferesre,,to enter seriously into the consideration of the subject. j o u Connell said the connexion between landlord and tenant 'reland was a most vicious one. The labouring population teethe n the extreme verge of destitution. The system had led p age most horrible crimes. It was, therefore, necessary to h ir e 3 4ch a revision of the system as would give the landlord a tent for his land and the tenant a just return for his labour.. ffi teliteylandilord and tenant question was one of the utmost di t. - faeto,t.y t was indeed a task to place these relations on asa isd footing.. It was impossible to read those passages an eql "0 admit that Mr. O'Connell, the leader of the people, front business it was to hold out for immediate advantages ta "Peal, must have been deeply impressed with the impor -641" of this question, when he saia that the relation of it was te ed with danger, Be (Lord J. Russell) would not venture ThsaeY what sho u ld b e the course of legislation on th i s su bj ect. e t ei Gwer i nwent had appointed a Commission to obtain further Illu e Z e , e • Vi on e doubted w h et h er f ur th er ev id ence was ne c essar y. Xee "ad alread y been given the subject before Committees Aleteerniseissioners. Such statements as were in the pam- Pre e „.,:itled " A Cry from Ireland," and which recorded the teimangs of one of the landlords, Richard Shee of Blackwell te . -. e, were truly painful to peruse. The narratives recorded Z eal were were truly heert.rending, and he would not venture to 1 1 - ,. 4 them to the House if they were not supported good evidence. All these statements could not be and if there were any of them true, it sufficiently proved 1),e4 tithe name of th e th e l aw , th e powers o f t h e l aw h a d etei ue used, and that the power of the landlords had been ex /er to an e x t ent tru l y dreadful. He thought it would tend tel e "Meh t o t h e mitigation, if not to the removal, of those l liee - tn if steps were takeh to make the administration of jus• "nou et ° re Pure and above all, to separate more from the land tlae e of the eonntry thefunctions of magistrate. He thought 1 4th e zt !"ion of stipendiary magistrates would be very desirable.. tilted in of Mr. Fox, he wished to see the laws .adminis deneeT spirit of equity and impartiality, so as to give confi itiethose- 'the people. He hoped, by such means, that many of ( lets of rapacity and violence on the one hand, and venge lse ‘eartd cruelty on the other, would be curbed and checked ; but - 70, - ;euld not venture to say that he knew of any direct remedy vie s ° g r eat, so extensive, and so long-enduring an . evil. It „%tra e t '„ e arlY a century since circumstances . as horrible and '4es n 's -s as general as now existed, occurred in Ireland. Let etad. riot think that a few pages of an Act of Parliament weuld the i,c l ate such evils.—(Hear, hear.) Having now detained erie e „„ o use at such length—(Cries no," and loud e'lt ee 7 ' t Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—he would not Aa ti c i into the various complaints which had been made re tie% n g the present condition of Ireland. (The Noble Lord l'ery , e re ad an extract from the speech of Mr. Fox, delivered the sh - ,:l i rtlY after the union had been carried, with respect to :214 1 4 .it in which that country should be governed, and which %ed. \ st ens were applicable to the present state of Ire- Wer e Mr. Fox denied that the people of that country Iki son di sloyal, or tainted with treason, and . with the digs' Jacobinical principles ; and he said that no reisoften existed, except what had resulted from the faults 'great ervernnaent.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Fox said he knew a e terti eal of Ireland, both from having been in that country, and )er a . nri anY privat e i n di v i duals. He knew that that people l eeli - n irr itable and alive to injury—that they possessed quick bgl4B.and qui c k resentment ; but he said, that of all the feel ighesleb a ctuated them none wa s more p re d om i nan t, from the Ape s s to th e l owest classes than gratitude for benefactions than g ensi bility of ki n d ness. L et t h e E ng li s h Government ter eet e their system of policy, and they would find them a dif :Led 1 0 , 1) ".'Ple—let them try the ef f ects of good government, unev 40r 40 . 3 i napartialy administered, and there would be d tl . nittlarY governments or executions. Such were the sen d h c e , -- ' s cif Mr. Fox, who had been long in his grave, an ef the remains were interred close at hand, in that receptacle s e !be great and the good of all ages. Such were he words o d si°a —such was the spirit that must animate all who r e ndeavoure .:pakrtno,Amaostetbtehe welfare and the happiness of the L ish people. system which Mr. Fox, loving Ireland, bad said :oh eplevoive)loetl(be a system to conciliate the affections of the Loud cheers.) The House had now an oppor tilinnitY—a late opportunity it was true, but still sufficiently in Po tul l i i t e e l dft o ra f r realisingtth that which Mr. Fox had said was the true c country to pursue after Ireland should have been hi ke , • — (Cheers. ) He was reminded of what had been die. r u respecting another countr whi h had been lone greatly ee'stied,ered after its union with En y gland n , and which been t ued es eott by one of Scotland's most gifted sons, Sir Walter e ---( Cheers.) Sir Walter Scott stated that when George tote er 'e a me to the throne, the people of Scotland began to look ere_beiii-'o3nt Young sovereign for repose after the disorders and Augtry nd redress of those wrongs which had agitated the Mg the reign of his grandfather, after the Acts of Zit ee de ts ent proscribing the language and dress of the High - -t eeee w hich had produced irritation and resistance. An th tl ey. ' a l d t been proposed for a commis . sion in his Majesty's se 5 i 4 was represented to the Sovereign that he fought on t‘etioosl(lthe Pretender, and had . performed many gallant ° lleh t ohs service ‘' Well," replied the King, "if he has well against me, he will, no doubt, fight equally for la " Th e t he n . reply," said Sir Walter Scott, " was circulated Ash eir ithst ighlands, and, although the Highlanders retained o at I :ac notions of the right of the House of Stuart, yet Old theirla attachment to the reigning family that they te a bov ee / down their lives for a Prince of the House of Ztale ---(Cheers.) We had now a young Queen upon the e'lland during the time of her grandfather many cala etre were fallen upon Ireland. There had been a rebellion . — th e Le several oppressive laws enacted, both by the Irish ae / tne e 'bglish Parliament and these laws had produced re- Sheßev°4 the part of the people.—( Hear, hear.) Their pre \v was er e i gn Was as young as George 111. had then been. shoullp..)arated from the memory of those calamities. Pe t ' r sUbj eet tle t the present Queen reign over the hearts of her a 8 St so that ,however attached they might be to ref fi e te e fro abstract question, the real benefits which they could 0 , 44 1 ' 4 a perfect equalit ' y of laws, and from an equal and ttti !ta to ioistr at ion of - usticc—( Loud cheers)—would bind e ei ll 3e? Lie? country by a j real, a perfect, and an indissoluble oe i tabl e 01-'o44d cheers.) What was there to prevent such . a Sover Irnatioa ?—( Cheers.) Not the peponal wish tha ' ll O eign.---(Loud cheers.) That Sovereign he had 17:K. a she onour to• serve, and for any one to be more anxious Ple tt , w as to secure the benefit and happiness of the Irish te.6lled imPossible.—(Loud cheers.) He had never, when t e 4t, tee office of Secrete! of State for the Home Depart pak - a tt "ed any intimation Y from that Sovereign that did not equal regard for Catholic, Protestant, and Presby- Ilis t ° Pee l) ] ° e'l cheers.) Who, then, would stand between the woniland this most desirable consummation ?—(Cheers.) te-irklehegepprevent Ireland from being what Scotland was— eof 46 14 )fr0m being united with England by a real Procal affection ?—( Cheers. ) Would the House th e ,: todeeTinense cheering. ) If the House should so decide, fishels'sele ee `i: , would they beaking a heavy responsibility upon Bor e xposing their country for many years to . th . e d at Pow er Pr.ecarious dominion over Ireland, and of chum ,tstlt the H ° nth regard to foreign nations.—( Loud cheers.) 54 . 1se t i on °53 e, rising above those prejudices, and showing Isaiptiotie together to th spirit of party, should desire to unite the rie er Ati ng in in the bonds of reciprocal affection, and, gletribtle c a t e Spirit of justice, should rely upon the love btouiTts inherits of the Irish people to make that country a r ottid° sutu re e l nee, and the source of strength for England, he 'Lo rd 4 e ,o answer for it, that the hopes of the House trettleeeheiode"i3appoirited. (Immense cheering.) The !Noble 111 "ou t '"` ba' moving his resolution, and sat down amidst r. cheerio th e ZY - Ys E g from all parts of the House. ' 3, 1 • 'Nobl e , seconded the motion which had been proposed el ee Just 1 -od in the eloquent speech to which the House I, : eager lee listened A . . • • much by its ti as h 'e speech distinguished as 'sue e da nn / Its justice calculated only to awake England r i . ftre4erstr ee t e b il , she was incurring. How marked was `tqUi n In th e 'ween the present period and the year N t. 1 4 do wn et year thee had a Minister of the Crown T h si 'llet h e e ee w oul l e a : t a d e :ring that rather than run the risk of civil eo ar ii i th e , Ppressioene his own friends, and break down the which he had assisted in building up. , l e het e aff eeti en e h ,,a; l accepted the proffered boon with kindness ` 44 se % as no t h. ":nen the Emancipation Act had been passed, tee 'stnsPeron i ng, either in the statute-book or in the roll of it t etre ation of the th e be nefits showthat o the out the ic administration 4 tn e Ref orm It ht be Cat . h d o! s f were admitted to Act, as of ten k , tw o . Act, t h at sal o eeh Jll,ti e t hee. e a nd fairnes courses to pursue, it was a failure. There were ttssia, t° set s towards the people of Ireland, the . one was to act ''hvard, p w, "n was and force. The coduct of 14 se erm ait otand was intelligible, so was the conductof Bt h i ee We nt nrittneeat,ders in Irclend.--f The Right Hon. Gentle-, ut 4 the e s u." man instances of oppression and injus e eta ecniedstern not onl nd b i thi s s rart efE ngla towards Ireland from the invasion.) tie d teed b up on the Oppressorsthat there should be a day of retribu tither n the greatest tu.ear t hear.) The penal laws were de to harrass and oppress the ! t‘ti t tl u ti 4 r iesa ; t e ae t! e : en : .b l e ta i e n r e l d rel n n g d u se i i le country grievously suffered When , th E en gland was in di ffi culties conces %fedee"-J-educatiun ePe°Ple were allowed to receive er tth tdi : to e and onierred power, and power led to e et first met n among the oppressed. The ih unblin, till, in a small room in a poor i:str at th e .; at. length, their numbers increased so ?)e d e e ggle enaa ' n r n e t i a_n at a i t o i on could not be resisted. After a 47,w was st.• atnhde rseam e b o e b u t e a h in ts ed , , vh a i n e d h o t u h g e ht pe t o o p h le av o e f 4we4Peeted frotaiiit all e s t w h as pirit which so long resisted that aF i ; th t . 4 t t er e d it as little effective as possible. pile,ttt4t rot •i h r r i e ia . j a a i toa e iE n n e rn o , t n o t f . he Noble Lord the first sympte ms .Ireland were apparent. He recol eine made upon tte aPPointanneult t: e o r ffi e %poi: RthoeraalnatecaGthoovleilcns: Dr' I .l ° eine: d t : 0 'U f _6)6 THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDA He was him-elf in Germany when his appointment was made, and he. recollected the observations made in Germany at the time. They asked whether it was possible that a country so free as England, and which preached freedom and liberty to all foreign States, could act in such a narrow spirit towards V Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) But so it was. The Right Hon. Gentleman soon after carne into power. He looked forward to the Noble Lord opposite, the Member for Cornwall, for impartial justice, but such had tot turned out to be the case. He had felt no doubt that, although they had not the Government of Lord Normanby or the Earl Fortescue, that justice would be done to Ireland.---( Hear, hear.) What had taken place ? A State prosecution, for what ?—Why, doing that which every Irishman was entitled to do. Every proceeding had been taken against the Catholics of Ireland that could be. They had been removed from the bench and magistracy, and in the selection of judges the wishes of the people had not beets eon sulted.—( Hear. ) He thought they looked in vain in Ireland for the promotion of Roman Catholics to any offices of honour or State.—( Hear, hear.) Even if they were offered, he doubted that any man would accept office from any member of the Iresent Government.—( Hear, hear.) E very w i s h o f t h e rish people had been met with the statement, that concession had reached its ultimatum—( Hear, he m)—and was it sur. prising that such things had taken place in Ireland ?—( Hear, hear.) Or that the people should say, if the House of Com mons would not redress their grievances, they must look to themselves, and consider the Government the criminal.— ( Hear, hear.) He would give credit to the Government in their proceedings, that they had a wish to vindicate the law, but in doing so, their first act ought to have been to take care that they should act with impartiality. Had such been the ease in the late trius? Certainly not; Catholics had been excluded from the j ur y, an d T ory spies had been employed.— ( Hear, hear.) The people of Ireland believed that they had been struck off the jury list because they were Catholics, and that a very different result would have taken place in the late trials if only one Catholic had been on the jury.—(Cheers.) If they imprisoned Mr. O'Connell, did the Government sup pose that others would not spring up in his place ? If they imprisoned Mr. O'Connell, they might find the necessity next week of a fresh prosecution. By imprisoning Mr. O'Connell, they would be only adding fuel to the flame of agitation. He could assure the Government that the followers of Mr. O'Con nell had not diminished in numbers. He could assure them tat there was an organised system of agitation in Ireland, which coercion could never put down. The Governmert were struggling against the repeal agitation ; and yet they were pursuing that course which was most likely to keep it up. The agitation would never be put down by prosecutions, but it might be put down by justice.—( Hear, hear.) Let them do justice to Ireland, and they would restore that country to peace but as long as they turned a deaf ear to its just de mands, so long would there be discontent and disaffection. The consequence of the present state of Ireland was the depre ciation of property and the stagnation of trade. By increasing the tranquillity of Ireland, they thereby increased its prosperity. One of the great causes of discontent in Ireland was the limited franchise at present possessed by the Irish people. They re quired, too, an addition to the number of Irish Members. They should be more proportioned to the number of English Mem bers in that House. With respect to the landlord and tenant question, he was glad that a Commission had been appointed to inquire into the subject; but he could not but regret that persons from the tenantry had not been chosen to form a por tion of that Commission. At present it was a one-sided Com mission, and could not be looked upon by the Irish tenantry but as a landlords' Commission. There were subjects for the consideration of such a Commission, into which it could not fairly enter without the assistance of persons who were tenants themselves. The present system of education in Ire land was extremely defective, and reform in that respect was very much required. He thought the grant to the College of Maynooth ought to be largely increased, and that the Univer sity ought to be very much extended ; to which University, he thought Catholics ought to be admitted, or that a Roman Ca tholic university should be established. There was one ques tion that he had not yet touched upon, and that was the ques tion of the Church of Ireland. It might be said that he as a Roman Catholic Member, would violate his oath by inter fering in such a question. He would appeal to the Right Hon. Baronet who had introduced the Catholic oath, as to what manner he intended that oath should be observed. Did he intend that that oath should allow the Roman Catholic Members to support the Noble Lord who hid commenced the debate, or did he intend that by that oath the Catholic Mem bers were precluded from interfering in ecclesiastical questions ? He would not do anything to the Protestant Church that he would not do to the Catholic. He would be for improving the condition of both. Why should a Roman Catholic be re quired to give stronger testimony in favour of the Protestant Church than Protestants themselves—than those who sat on the same side of the House with him ? Did the Constitution debar them from meddling with Church questions? If so, then his constituents would say to him—" You shall not re p.esent us—you are curbed and fettered—you would not half represent us. We will have a Protestant, not a Catholic." Why, if such a principle were acted upon, the Catholics of Ire land would have reason to say they were not half emanci pated. Were seven millions of people to be kept in constant disaffection ? It was useless to think of effecting any concilia tion by pensioning. The Catholic clergy of Ireland would not receive Government support.—( Hear, hear.) A short time ago, when he ( Mr. Wyse) happened to be in Dublin, there was a solemn enunciation, on the part of the Chatholic hierarchy of Ireland, not to receive anything in the shape of salary or endowment. The causes of this were manifest. The Catholic clergy must have deeply felt the as pe.sions that have been cast upon them by a large number of the people of this country—they had been slandered in the grossest manner ; and it was not only Irish feeling, but the feeling of human uature, that they should be filled with re sentment. The Catholic clergy were not hostile to British connection, and when Lord Normanby was Lord Lieutenant there, they showed the utmost disposition to assist the authori ties in restoring and preserving tranquillity. The Noble Lord said in the course of his speech that he saw no reason why the Catholic clergy should not be selected from the humbler classes of the Irish people—neither did he (Mr. Wyse). On the contrary, he would prefer that they were selected from the humbler classes, for they would understand the condition of the poor better, would sympathise in their distresses, and be more alive to their wants and wishes. The attachment of the Catholic peasant to his priest was almost proverbial—the at tachment of the priest to his flock—they had suffered together —they had been identified since the days when Catholic clergymen were transported to the West Indies for their profession—when a premium had been offered fur their heads, and a still larger premium for their abnegation of the creed of their forefathers. He had no wish for the ascendancy of his creed—every good Catholic would dislike it—but they wanted impartiality in the administration of the laws and equality of c i v il r i g h ts w i t h t h e i r P rotestant fellow -subjects. Was not the present condition of Ireland a disgrace to England? And was it not at present a source of great uneasiness to the people of this country ? It was a just principle of retribution, that no country could injure another without being ultimately affected by those injuries itself. There was Ireland in the midst of poverty and discontent—at all times and in all sea sons—there she was, miserable and afflicted, whilst they were rolling in the midst of luxury. She was like the Roman slave, continually reminding them of their mortality. England might boast of carrying her commerce and introducing civilization to the remotest parts of the globe—she might be the mistress of the ocean, and the most prosperous of nations. She would be the friend of the slave far away, and the enemy to oppression in foreign countries ; but as long as Ireland continued as she was—as long as Eng land neglected to tranquillise that country by healing and conciliating measures—as long as there was domestic discon tent —no prosperity, however great, could be of long standing. The cure was simple.—let them administer to Ireland those laws which they so much valued themselves, and have them administered in the same spirit with which they were ad ministered in this country—let them not coerce but conciliate, and let the Government a second time imitate 1829, by doing justice to Ireland.-(Cheers.) Sir J. GRAHAM did not complain of the time consumed in the two speeches he had heard. The magnitude and the immense importance of the interest involved fully justified the length of those discussions. The House, he was sure, would feel that the task which he undertook in following the Noble Lord, and the Right Hon. Gentleman was a very difficult one. He would not trespass on any more of then : time than was absolutely necessary, but candidly state the case on the part of the Go vernment. Before proceeding now to notice the general topics of these speeches, he should notice a matter which was per sonal to himself. He could not help lamenting that upon this fatal Irish feeling he first parted from the Noble Lord—on the same feeling they had afterwards met in hostile array, and in this feeling he feared that, after the expressions used by the Noble Lord, they would never again unite. What had fallen from the Noble Lord had sufficiently convinced him that their opinions regarding Ireland differed very widely. In one thing he cordially agreed with the Noble Lord, who said that — no sovereign had ever been more intent upon promoting the, contentment of the people of Ire land without distinction of party or creed. He had the greatest satisfaction in stating that all the instructions which he had received from her Majesty led him to entirely concur with the Noble Lord, and to believe that the Noble Lord was perfectly accurate and correct. Oz another point also he agreed with the Noble Lord ; he passed a glowing pane gyric on Mr. Fox, in which he entirely concurred. Mr. Fox said that military government and military executions were not suited to Ireland. What was the policy of the Govern ment towards Ireland ? What was the conduct of the Govern ment which he was called upon to defend? Was it in favour of a coercive Bill? Did lie stand up to advocate trial by court-martial? It was not military law nor military execu tions he was called upon to defend. He stood up to advocate the propriety of governing Ireland according to the established laws of this country—the trial by jury; and it was those laws which, be was happy to say, had triumphed in that country, and which he stood up to vindicate. He desired to imitate as much as possible the temper of the Hon. Member for Waterford, which was quite unobjectionable—( Hear, hear) —and well worthy of imitation. The House would remember _ _ that the Noble Lord had said that her ➢lajesty's Government were the real criminals, and as they stood there charged in this manner, he trusted the House would give them a patient hearing. The Noble Lord had, unintentionally no doubt, spoken of the past policy which had been pursued towards Ireland, and of that which he supposed they would adopt for the future, in a manner which did not make the distinction between the two sufficiently obvious. He would divide the subject into two leading branches, and first he would speak of the conduct which had been pursued recently by the Government, and speak of the more general policy hereafter. He would gladly go back to the period to which the Noble Lord had referred, but his duty at present was to defend the conduct which had been pursued by the Go vernment. He was surprised at the manner in which the Noble Lord had spoken of the Government of Ireland by Lord Wellesley and Lord Anglesea.—( Hear, hear.) Surely, the Noble Lord remembered that he himself was a Member of the Government at that time—(Cheers)—that he had adopted their policy and shared in their responsibility.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord had complained that the union had yielded no fruits. At the time that he had been the colleague of the Noble Lord in office, great and important measures had been carried, and which he believed had been productive of great advantages to Ireland. When Lord Grey came into power, emancipation had been carried. He would observe in passing that from the time that he (Sir J. Graham) had left Lord Grey's Government, the interval was very shoe, before the re spected head of the Government left it also, and however glowing was the eulogium w hi c h t h e Noble Lord had passed on Mr. Fox, Lord Grey was as worthy of it, and he thought that the Noble Lord would agree with him in opinion upon that point.—( Loud cheers. ) Was it contended that Lord Grey had passed no measures of a liberal nature for Ireland ? He was satisfied that Lord Grey would not have held office for five years within four months without giving effect to that liberal policy with regard to Ire land, for the sake of which he had sacrificed office for so many years.—( Cheer.) He would state the measures which they had passed. They had enlarged the franchise. They had es tablished a system of national edv ration. They had passed the Church Temporalities Act—an Act which he believed eon duced to the stability of the Established Church, by enlarging the basis, while it took away trom th e ca p ital.— (Cheers.) The Noble Lord admitted that the policy of Lord Grey's Go vernment had been conceived ;q a spirit of kindness towards the Catholics, and that there h d been a wish on their part to admit Catholics to the benefit of a full participation of all ad vantages.—( Cheers. ) The Noble Lord had said that when the late Government had left °free, they had left the country in a state of tranquillity, and that the repeal agitation was quite insignificant. Now he I id extracted from the Pilot newspaper a list of the repeal meetings held during 1840. On July 26, 1840, a repeal meeting had been held at Castlebar, which bad been attended by eighteen Rs "an Catholic clergy men, and several gentlemen. On the 26th of August there had been a repeal breakfast at Mallow, whi.sh had been attended by 201) persons, and in the same month there had been a public repeal meeting, attended by 10,000 persons. On the 20th there was a meeting at Skibbereen, attended by several thou sand persons ; and during that year there were meetings at Kilkenny, attended by 200,000; at Drogheda, by 60,000; at. Waterford, by 20,000; at Dublin, by 6,000 ; and at Maynooth. by 10,000 persons. In 1841 there had been meetings at Bel fast, in the Curragh of Kildare, attended by 80,000 people; and on the 18th of August, 1841, just before Ministers went out of office, there was a repeal meeting at Drogheda, attended by 25,000 people, which was the state of affairs antecedent to the present Government corning into power. Considering the present position of Mr. O'Connell, he would riot allude to the speeches which had been made by the lion. and Learned Gentleman on those occasioes ; but he would state generally that he had expressed himself with the same zeal and energy which had characterised his former speeches. The Noble Lord had alluded to the jery law, and, as it appeared to him, had confounded the law regulating common juries, with that by which special juries were regulated. With regard to common juries the Noble Lord had eulogised the rule which had been established by Mr. Justice Perrin. An Host. MEMBER—By Sir M. O'Loghlin. Sir J. GRAHAM thought it was by Mr. Justice Perrin ; but it mattered not which of them had established the rule, for the Crown ordering common jurors to stand bye, that rule re mained in operation, and had never been varied from in the slightest degree. To say that the Crown should not, on any occasion, order a juror to stand bye, would be an absolute denial of justice. The calm and temperate manner. in which the Attorney-General fur England conducted Crown prosecu tions had met with general approval, and yet, at the recent ttials at Cardiff, a panel of seventy-five jurors had been cx hausted by the challenges of the prisoners, and of the Crown, those of the prisoners being limited by low to twenty. The power should be exercised with justice and discretion, but it was necessary that it should be possessed by the Crown. The Noble Lord seemed to labour under some misapprehension with regard to the difference between ordering a common juror to stand bye and striking a special jury; he was not aware that the rule regulating the ordering a common juror to stand bye, had been introduced by Sir M. O'Loghlin, but the striking a special jury was regulated by Act of Parliament— that Act having been brought into this House by Sir M. O'Loghlin, at the time that the Noble Lord was in office. The special jury list contained the names of 716 special jurors. He would ; in passing, observe on the fact of certain names having been omitted from that list. The Noble Lord had stated that sixty names had been omitted, and he relied on making that statement upon a statement which had been made in the Queen's Bench. He (Sir James Graham) believed that that statement was a gross exaggeration. Not above one half that number of names had been omitted, and no one could contend that the Government was at all responsible for the omission. His Right Hon. Friend, the Recorder for Dublin, who was present, would, doubtless, in the course of the debate, give some explanation on tne subject. He deeply r grettcd the omission, and he agreed with the Noble Lord in expressing his sorrow at finding that that circumstance should have created a prejudice, and have given even an ap pearance of unfairness to the administration of justice.— ( Hear, hear.) But as the number of names omitted did no amount to thirty, and that the names of Protestants as well as of Catholics were among those omitted, it was hardly possible to imagine that as forty-eight names were chosen by ballot out the list of 716, that the omission of those names would have affected the composition of the jury in any material degree. According to the Act of Parliament, the parties were to strike off the names alternately, and if there was anything re markable in the Crown striking off the names of Roman Catholics, it should be recollected that the traversers had not struck off the names of any Roman Catholics. The case, as originally represented to the public, had been that ten Roman Catholics had been struck off by We Crown, not be- cause they were repealers, but because they were Roman Catholics. He was sorry to see that that respectable bode, the English Catholics, had resented this striking off the jury as an insult offered to themselves, and Ind thus given to what was really merely a matter of political difference a character of religious strife. —( Hear, hear.) He regretted this exceedingly, for he entertained the greatest pct. sonal respect for many of the gentlemen who had attended the meeting which had been called to express the feelings of the English Catholics on that occasion. —(Cheers.) It had been stated that these persons had not been members of the Repeal Association, and the traversers, who of course had access to the hook:, had been challenged to verify their statement by affidavit. This challenge had been accepted, but the affidavit had not been filed until towards the close of the proceedings. That affidavit was most important--it disposed of eight out of the ten cases. ( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now he could not understand how the striking off the names of those persons could be considered as an impeachment of their fidelity to the sanctity of an oath.. If, in a fox-hunting county he should bring an action of treepass again* the master of the hounds, of course, his solicitor would take care to exclude all the members of the hunt freers the jury. —(Cheers.) If he brought an action for tithes, of course, he should have little chance of success if his solicitor did not strike off all lay impro priators from the list of the jury.—(Cheers.) They did not question their honour, they only questioned the strong precon ceived opinions and feelings.—( Hear, hear.) He should cer tainly be astonished if any one would have the boldness to stand up in that House and contend that those Roman Catholics who were members of the Association ought to have been retained on the jury.—(Cheers.) He would now consider the cases of those two who were not, according to the statements of the affi davit, members of the Association, although they were Roman Catholics. These persons were Mr. Michael Dunn and Mr. Ilendric. Now, with regard to Michael Dunn, it appeared that he resided in St. Patrick's ward, Dublin. Now, there were four persons of that name, three of whom had signed the requisition for calling the repeal meeting at. Tara, and, as the officers of the Government believed, this very Michael Dunn, the brazier, was one of those who had signed a requisition for calling a repeal meeting in St. Patrick's ward. Dunn himself, in his affidavit, negatived the fact that he was a member of the Repeal Association, but he did not nega tive the fact that he had signed a requisition for calling a re peal meeting. Now, with regard to the composition of the jury, he would observe that the Government might, had they chosen, have tried the traversers before a common jury, and in that case the traversers would not have bet n entitled to chal lenge a single man, whilst the Crown might have ex ercised its prerogative of ordering jurors to stand aside. They did not like to act in such a way, because they thought it would be unfair towards the traversers ; and they thought it right that they should be tried by a special jury, which would place both parties in the same position.— ( Hear, hear.) There were forty-eight persons drawn from the general panel, which were reduced to twenty-four, from which twelve were selected. It was not only in their power to strike off some of the names, but it was imperative on them, and it was obvious to common sense that those whom it was likely must have been prejudiced as being members of the Repeal Association, were the persons who ought to have been struck off.—( Hear, hear.) But he would go further, and say that the instructions of the Govern ment were not that Roman Catholics should be struck off gru d Roman Catholics, but only to strike therm off un d er such cir cumstances as would induce them to strike off any other per • sons.—( Hear, hear.) He was sure that hi s N o bl e Friend would confirm his statement, and he was satisfied that these instructions had been fulfilled to the best of his Noble Friend's judgment. Thus, nine out of the ten of the cases were disposed of.—( Hear, hear.) The tenth person was Mr. Hen dric, and he could assure the House that he was believed to be a Protestant when he was struck off. He was struck off for reasons quite independent of his religious opinions. It would not become him to state what these reasons were, and if hi were asked to state them he would not do so, because he would consider it to be a direliction of his duty. He had now dealt with this question—( Hear, hear)—and he could assure the House, and could conseientously state that nothing was so opposed to the wishes and feelings of her Majesty's Govern ment as the exclusion of Catholics on account of their religion. On the contrary, positive instructions had been given to avoid such an exclusion, and notwithstanding the prejudices which had been raised on this subject no prejudices could be more regard to chat the Noble L or d huandfounsdaeidd. respecting—(Hear.) With their not interfering before, he could assure the House that throughout the last session of Par liament her Majesty's Government was unwilling to interfere with the right of petition. They regarded the meetings in Ireland with the greatest anxiety. He would not say that they wnre unlawful or lawful, but they went to the very verge of the law. Violent language had been used at them. There was marching in order and military music—( Hear, hear)—which they believed were outside the law. The reason why they did not act before was, that if they instituted a prosecution for individual acts in some obscure corner of Ireland, no moral impression would be produced by a conviction,— ( Hear, hear.) They had an instance of this before. Lord Grey's Government ►nstituted a prosecution against Mr. Bar rett, for a 'ter which appeared in his paper. A conviction was obtained ; and although Mr. O'Connell's name was ap pended to the letter, he did not own himetelf to be the author. Mr. Barrett was convicted, and west to prison. An opinion might be entertained whether he was handsomely treated on that occasion.—(Heat, hear.) But no mare! effect whatever was produced. Mr. O'Connell himself said ttiat it was a mean and shabby proceeding *us to attack itidieialnals, and, upon reflection, he ( Sit J. Gieahatn) thought hi was right in that observation.—(Laughthe.) The object of Ate present Go vernment was to °Main the punishment of the " head and front " of the offenders, and, by pursuing the course they did to allow the whole scheme to develope itself—they obtained - a conviction by a jury fairly constituted, under the direction of an unanimous bench, in a trial, at bar, and in the metro- polis of Ireland, and to which the eyes net only of Ireland but of Great Britain were directed. It had been acknowledged that the Attorney-General conducted the case with great temper ; they had the assertion of Mr. Whiteside, who distin guished himself as one of the counsel for the traversers—that on the whole the Attorney-General conducted the case with great fairness. They were urgent in pressing the case until the traversers pleaded. They made various motions for the purpose of delay, which were resisted by the Crown, but after they had once pleaded, a reasonable time had been allowed the traversers.—( Rear, hear.) They had waited for the revision of the jury list, with regard to which such compliments had been paid to his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Shaw) for the impartiality which he displayed. Had they proceeded in an opposite direction, and proceeded against the traversers for attending illegal meetings, it was clar from the ver dict of the jury that they would not have obtained a conviction. He would not say that those meetings were ille gal. They were held for a particular purpose— he was about to say for the purpose of intimidating the Govern ment, and to force Parliament into a breach of national faith.—(Cheers.) But the jury thought that though those meetings were not illegal in themselves, they became so from combination. The Noble Lord had spoken of the law of con spiracy, which he compared to constructive treason. He said it was a novel law. tie (Sir J. Graham) denied that there was any novelty in the law of conspiracy ; bat if there were any novelty in ;it, he contended that they had to deal with a new state of facts, which made it justifiable for them to have re- course to it. One of the most sagacious of living men fixed his attention on a terse saying of a celebrated female writer—The Duke of Wellington called his attention to a pas sage in a work of Madame de Stael ;—" On ne conspire pas sur la place." In these times Leaguers meet in theatres—(Loud cheers)—Chartists meet in market places, and conspirators ltneet in conciliation halls to disseminate sedition amongst the multitude.—(Loud cheers.) He denied that this was a new law, but even if it were, the circumstances of the case rendered it necessary. Again, it bad been said that in the issue of the proclamation, prohibiting the meeting at Clontarf, great carelessness and want of prudence marked their course. The Noble Lord passed a high eulogy upon the exertions of Mr. O'Connell to stop the meeting, and he reminded the House of the opposition he gave to Chartism and trades unions. He agreed with the Noble Lord in the merit due to Mr. O'Connell for the steps which he took to stop the meeting at Clontarf. He did not wish to aggravate the case against him, but all those points had been urged in his defence, and they were proved by the Crown to be part of the means by which the conspiracy had been proved. The Noble Lord in more than one passage of his speech spoke with Christian forgiveness, and in high praise of Mr. O'Connell ; and he spoke of Lord Lyndhurst in terms of a very opposite description. "I am the colleague of Lord Lyndhurst—( Loud. ironical cheering from the Opposition benches ) I am his . . colleague.—(Continued cheering from the same quarter;) I am his friend (said the Right Hon. Gentleman, with vehe mence)—and I am surprised that the Noble Lard should have thought it becoming his station to speak of The.: Lord Chancellor of England in the terms which he (Loud cheers.) You may talk of your high birth and-Of iris=' tocratic feelings." The Lord Chancellor of England wasa mAii t who from his first entrance into public life had ripen 141.-fhel exhibition of pre - eminent tal en t s t o t h e -fi rst place at the bar . EVEN ING, PEER ITAIt V 1 -(Loud cheers.) In politics, it was true, he had created some enemies, though not very many, in this country, where he was best known—(Cheers)—but no man had adorned the judgment-seat with brighter faculties ; he possessed the highest order of talents ; his integrity was incorruptible ; his intellect was first-rate, and he thought it hard that a man who had risen to pre-eminence by means so honourable, should be attacked fur party purposes in terms so severe as those used by the Noble Lord. He was sure that Lord Lyndhurst would not have spoken of any political opponent in such terms in his absence.—(Loud cheers.) But was this all that was unge nerous ? 'I he Noble Lord relied on the use of some particular expressions attributed to Lord Lyndhurst ; and he was be. frayed into saying that it was not for his talents, that it was not for his faculties, that it was not for his judicial knowledge, that it was not for his virtue, that it was not for his integrity— he was raised to the woolsack, but that his Right Hon. Friend recommended him to it on account of his hostility to Ireland. —( Cheers.) He was sure that upou more calm reflection the Noble Lord would not have used those expressions. Certain expressions had been attributed to Lord Lyndhurst in the House of Lords, which, within five or six days after they had been used, he positively denied—( No, no, and Hear, hear) — n the tense in which the were taken. Lord Lyndhurst used those expressions in the presence of the First Lord of the Treasury (Lord Melbourne), and in the presence of the President of the Council (Lord Lansdowne), and they never commented upon those expressions, which it would have been their duty to do if they had under stood them in the sense attributed to them. He would now pass from this subject by assuring the Noble Lord that he heard him speak of Lord Lyndhurst in the terms which he did, with the greatest pain. He would now return to the meeting at Clontarf, from which he had digressed, and he begged of the Hause to attend to the dates, which were material to a right un tler-tanding of the case. The requisition for convening the tneeting was signed on the 27th of September, and on Satur day the 29th a proclamation was issued of a very peculiar character. The Lord-Lieutenant was then in England for the benefit of his health, and his attention was directed to the proclamation. Mr. O'Connell had often before alluded to the display of infantry attending the repeal meetings, he said that they were superior to those which the Duke of Wellington commanded at the battle of Waterloo, and better than those whom Napoleon led to Moscow. But in the requisition for the Clontarf meeting, allusion had been made for the first time to repeal cavalry. He would not read the proclamation.—( Cries of "Do ; do." The R;glit Honours ble Gentleman then read the proclamation convening the meeting. ) He would now call the attention of the House to the state of Ireland at that time. Immense multitudes had assembled ; those violent assemblages had increased. There were the meet ings at Mullaghtnast, there were other important meetings at the Conciliation Hall. Then at last came the proclamation with respect to the 11 Feting at Clontarff.—( Hear, hear.) It had been asserted that this was to be the last meeting. Why, what was the fact? Why, they had the words of Mr. O'Con nell himself, dated at Mullaglisnast, in which he stated that five or six meetings were yet to come, and that the do nothing policy of the Government would not heal the sores of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) At this time the proclama mation issued. Upon that event taking place, he (Sir James Graham) summoned the Lord Chancellor of Ireland and the Lord Lieutenant and the different members of the Privy Council. This was on the 9th of October. They deliberated on the proclamation, they reconsidered it, and they thought it was necessary the military proclamation should be withdrawn. —( Hear, hear.) At least that the word " group" should be substituted for "troop." Mr. WALLACE—WiII the Hon. Baronet state to the House the new proclamation ? Sir J. GRAHAM—Certainly. The Right Hon. Baronet then read the substitution for the proclamation, several parts of which created considerable laughter in the House. The Go vernment then deliberated whether the altered proclamation had materially changed the facts. It was thought it had not, and it was then considered necessary that the Lord Lieutenant arid the Lord Chancellor, who were at that time in London, should proceed immediately to Dublin, having authoriiy, imme diately after their arrival, to do whatever they might think ne cessary. The Lord Chancellor and the Lord Lieutenant ar rived in Dublin on the Friday, and after weighing the whole proclamation —a proclamation that had been posted round Dublin for 30 miles—a proclamation which was known at four o'clock on Saturday afternoon, they thought it their duty to adopt the course they had done. He was happy to say—and he did so with the greatest pleasure— that Mr. O'Connell had used his utmost exertions, and those exertions had been eminently successful in prevent ing the loss of life.—( Great cheering.) The Government t o h b e l e r Lorderesult he Member mhe r f was convinced th a t t h e s i m plest mode of ar r i v i ng at t h e truth t was the i course o they h y o nhdaodnhad asked adopted.—(Hear.)ked what had been The Noble of the proceeding of the Government? He would tell that Noble Lord, that advantages of the utmost importance and benefits of the greatest extent had already taken place. There There had been an increase of employment; t il ha e t a , r. i ) had been peace in Ireland for the lastthreeunbtehsfi.d—es( had been proved , that without the extreme stretch of the law, they had overcome a most dangerous principle.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had said that the Government had occupied Ire —( e ile so, ar, hear.) Most cer t a i n l y did when it was attempted to hlrelsa say y d b t y ha military i t l h it e a y ry h f force.—(Hear, ce d . on wrest Ireland from her Majesty be force.—( Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's Government had been convinced that there was a design to tamper with the military—( Hear) and could the Noble Lord say, under such circumstances, that the Government was not bound to take the precaution they had done ?—( Hear, hear.) What had been the conduct of the Government upon the subject? Why, until the month of March, so far from adding to the army in Irtland they were reducing it.—( Hear, hear.) He had a return, which had been moved for in the other House of Parliament, and that showed the lank and file in Ireland from - 1830 to 1844.—(Hear, hear.) Now, on the Ist of January, 1844, there was rank and file in Ireland amounting to 21,257.—( Hear.) In 1833, and 1834, what was the state of the rank and file? Why, in 1833, it was 23,928—( Hear )—in 1834 it was `23,844, and between the Ist of September, 1841, and the 10th f March 1843, during which the .‘ monster" meetings began, the force in Ireland was reduced by the withdrawal of two regi ments of cavalry and twelve battalions df infantry, leaving four battalions of infantry and one regiment of cavalry. Mr. WALLACE wished to know what the numbers were in 1841-1843. Sir J. GRAHAM said that in 1841 the numbers were 14,637 ; and in 1843, 14,406.—(Hear, hear.) He ( Sir J. Graham) must admit, with the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, that it was an unwise policy to hold Ire land to this country by military force. Such a course could never be looked upon as sound policy. He would now glance at the measures taken by the Government, and those which they were now prepared to take. The Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman had gone upon most erroneous premises, and they were unable to discover any thing very slew with respect to Ire land. As to the tenure of land, the Commission issued by the Government had touched upon every point to which the Noble Lord and the lion. Member for Waterford had ad verted._..( Hear, hear.) He was supported by all authority that the law of ejectment was beneficial to Ireland—that the law had proved highly beneficial. Th ese su bj ec t s , h owever , it was of plantations was equally s o , an d t h at t h e l aw o f su bl e tti ng contended on the part of the Government should undergo re vision, and if any alteration was necessary they should be made. With respect to the law of landlord and tenant the Noble Lord had proposedito increase the number of stipendiary magistrates The Hon. Member for Waterford said that her Majesty's Go vernment had raduced the number of 4ipendiary magistrates. Now, he begged the House to attend to the facts he was about to read. The number of stipendiary magistrates in 1838, 1839, 1840, and 1841, under the administration of the Noble Lord opposite, amounted to 59. In the estimates for 1841, the Government took a vot e f or 59 stipendiary mag i stra t es in Ireland. This was at a very curious period, namely, on the 2.Bth of July, 1841.-4 Hear, hear.) It was then that the Noble Lord and his colleagues bethought themselves that the time had arrived when it was expedient to add to the number of stipendiary magistrates, having had for four years only 59. Or, the 15th of June the addition commenced, for on that day two were added. On the 28th of July two more were added,and on the 6th of August one more was added, and on the very day that Lord Melbourne resigned the seals of office into her Majesty's hands, another addition was made to the number. In the course of two months seven new m i s t ra tes wereappointed. Now, the case would no t b e perfect if h ag e did not contrast it with the conduct of her M a j esty s present Government. They did not consider it necessary t o maintain the appointments o f t h ose seven magistrates, but as soon as vacancies occurre d , f our o f these gentlemen were a p po i nted to the situations, an d th ese gentlemen were firm sup porters of the late Government . Th e lion. Member for Waterford had laid some stress en the ques tion of national education. He (Sir James Graham) had to state to the House that it was the intention o f h er Majesty's Government, in the estimates of the p res ent year, to propose a considerable increase to th e grant for na tional education. It was also intended by her Majesty's Government to place the Roman Catholics of Ireland on the same footing w ith respect to charitable bequests as the R oman C at h o lics and Protestant Dissenters of England. He wi s h e d b e f ore he sat down, to allude to the question of th e f ra nchise in Ireland. It was the intention of he r M a jesty's Government to introduce a new Registration Act for Ireland, and to propose an extension of the county franchise. It was the intention of the Government to deal in some mea sure with the franchise of cities and towns. By the law any person was deprived of hi s franchise if he ere pay any one of the little local taxes for which he was liable. In Dublin there were no less than twenty such local taxes,he and if a person were to omit the payment of one them,of present ttedto would be liable to lose his franchise. This was vexatious, and after all was an insufficient, security. It was no test of solvency. Hut since the passing of that Act, the Poor-law Act had been passed, and poor. rates established. It was proposed by the Government, that for the maintenance of the franchise it should be necessary to pay the borough rates, the jury cess, and the poor-rates only. The Noble Lord had stated that his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) had described the Bill of Lord Alorpeth as one that had been introduced under false . . colours. It was true that his Noble Friend had made use of such an expression, but he did so in reference to the terms of the Bill, as it was stated that it was a Bill to define the franchise ; whereas it was not only a Bill to define the franchise, but also materially to alter it. It was on this ground that his Noble Friend had said the Bill liEd been intro duced under false colours. The Noble Lord opposite had alluded to the judicial appointments under her Majesty's present Government, and had stated that it was impossible to make proper appointments from the Conservative members of the bar in Ire land. Now, what was the fact ? ,Who were the counsel enga ge d by the traversers in the late trials? — ( Hear , hear.) He thou g ht there were seven or eight counsel employed, and, with th e exception of Mr. Pigot, Mr. Sheil, and Mr. Monahan, were Conservatives. Mr. Moore was a Protestant, and was the Solicitor-General of the late Government. He ( Sir James Graham) now approached a most important subject. His Right Hon. Friend, the First Lord of the Treasury, had been asked to put a construction upon the oath taken by the Catholic Members. He hoped his Right Hon. Friend would not an swer that question. It was not an oath imposed by him, but an oath imposed by the Legislature. He ( Sir J. Graham) did not think there was any advantage to be derived in a discus sion as to the construction of an oath. When the Legisla ture gave the Roman Catholics a full participation in the rights conferred by the Constitution it gave it in consideration only of their taking that oath ; and having done so full confidence was placed in them by the Legislature. He would, for a moment, turn to the observations of the Noble Lord with respect to the Established Church. As he under stood the meaning of the Noble Lord, it was that an equality with respect to religion should be observed in Ireland. In passing, he could not abstain from saying that the plain object uf this motion, was to take the reins of power out of the hands of her Majesty's present Government. He imagined, under these circumstances, that the Noble Lord might have stated some distinct policy on a matter of such importance.—(Cheers and ironical cheers.) Was the Noble Lard prepared to propose a system of perfect equality? How were they to make that equa lity? Were they prepared to endow the Roman Catholics in the same manner as members of the Established Church ? He thought that the Presbyterians and the Protestant Dissenters of this country would not very well like to be taxed for such a purpose.- The Noble Lord had himself deprecated the voluntary principle; The 'division of the revenues of the Church be tween.Catholics,and Protestants would be the source of endless . strife and implacable animosity.—( Hear, hear,) He was sorry to have Occupied the attention of the House for so long a time. With respect to the Protestant Church in Ireland, he did not approve ,of any'.-of the nostrums which had been offered on the otter side of the House for its maintenance. The theasurft whirh 'had been suggested were inconsistent with the, pviiiciide_which regulated the Protestant State of Eng land, arid. which was decidedly favourable to a Protestant Chtirtli:;L:(Heir, hear.) That Church had been established by the Reformation—had been confirmed by the Revolution— and had been guaranteed by the Act of Settlement. The Act of Union had strcnghened the establishment of that Church, and it should not be overthrown by a Repeal Association, or by a body of conspira'ors, such as hal recently hem) convicted in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, from Colonel Sibthorp.) He had now gone through all those topics of the speeches of the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman, and though he had touched upon them but imperfectly, yet, still he had stated his opinions candidly and fairly, and no man could say that he had not spoken frankly._( Hear, hear. ) He could not say that the Noble Lord, in seeking to displace the present Government, had been equally candid and explicit.—(hear, hear.) If the house thought her Majesty's Government had acted unwisely in strengthening the hands of the executive in maintaining the laws—why let them so declare by their votes that they were in favour of the policy of the Noble Lord ; but if they approved of the manner in which the Government had discharged their duty to their Sovereign and the country— why then let the House by a decisive vote negative the motion of the Noble Lord.—( Cheers. ) An HON. MEMBER then moved the adjournment of the debate, which was agreed to. The Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the Horne adjourned at a Quarter pact Twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 13. These Lordships met at Five o'Clock. TITHE COMMUTATION. Lord LYTTELTON presented a petition from the Rev. Charles Miller, complaining of the provisions of the Tithe Commutation Act, as injurious to the clergy. EARL DUNDONALD'S INVENTIONS. Lcrd BROUGHAM gave notice that he should or, Thurs day next bring under the consideration of their Lordships the inventions of a Noble Friend of his, Earl Dundonald. The Noble Earl wished to represent to the House the great expense he had been put to in perfecting these inventions. OATHS OF ROMAN CATHOLICS. Lord STOURTON gave notice that on the day most conve nient to their Lordships, either on Friday or Monday, he pur posed to bring before their Lordships the construction of the Homan Catholic oath, and he stated to their Lordships what he conceived to be the fair and honest meaning and construction of that oath. Ile trusted he should not trespass too long on their Lordships' time if he was permitted for a few moments to call their attention to some circumstances connected with that oath. He did not at all mean to try to influence or act upon that opinion of their Lordships; but still he should say that he thought there was quite enough to warrant him in bringing the subject before the House; and he therefore on Friday should call the attention of their Lordships to the mode in which the Roman Catholic oaths were constructed. The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition, praying that the House would adopt such means as would secure the spiritual education of the humbler classes. Lord BEAUMONT wished to know when it would suit the Government to bring forward the measure relating to the con solidation of the turnpike-trusts in England ? The Duke of WELLING roN said that the matter would be brought before the House either on Thursday or Friday. Earl FORTESCUE presented a petition from Belfast, com plaining of the present state of Ireland. The petitioners stated that they apprehended civil war, and that though the use of power might be effectual for the suppression of disorder, it could not remove discontent. They also complained of the inefficient state of the represen tation of Ireland, as compared with that of England, In conclusion, they prayed the House to adopt such measures as were best calculated to avert the dangers now impending, and to prevent the recurrence thereof. THE STATE OF IRELAND. The Marquis of NORMANBY, on rising to call the atten tion of the House to this subject, said—There were subjects of such paramount and urgent importance in the minds of a speaker, that they completely banished all considerations of self. It was this alone which had induced him to encounter the diffi culty, and to incur the responsibility, of bringing before their Lordships a subject of such great magnitude as that of which he had given notice. He entertained feelings of such inten sity as to the present danger and as to the future prospects of Ireland, that whatever other disqualification he might have, he should at least address them with that earnestness which was, he believed, the best passport to their Lordships' attention: But he had another inducement to address their Lordships on this subject; that even now, in the midst of all the excite ment and agitation—to which he was known to be opposed— he daily received proofs from different parts of the country of the kindly recollection retained by a kind-hearted people of one whom they truly believed to have had their interest at heart. No one would deny that the present state of that country imperieusly ca ll e d f or t h e i mme di ate attention of Par liament.—( Hear. ) One year since there was an agitation in that country which the moderate in Ireland regarded with disfavour, and in this country was opposed with a unanimity almost unparalleled. It was headed by an individual who, whatever might be his claims to the gratitude of posterity, had rendered himself, by anany of his proceedings, dis tasteful to the large majority in this country. What was the state of things now ? The repeal of the union was not one degree less impracticable, but men's minds were diverted from that simple issue to the canvassing freely and the criticising unfavourably much of the conduct of her Ma jesty's Government. In the year 1829, when 'introducing the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, the present Primo Minister, in alluding to the state of Ireland, said that 7,000,000 of Ca tholic's were united to a man. He was far from believing that they were united on this subject, though they appeared to be united against her Majesty's Government. —( Hear.) They were not more favourable to repeal, but their condition was such that he was justified in calling upon their Lordships for inquiry into the subject. With reference to this he need only allude to the petition which had just been presented by his Noble Friend from certain Protestants in Belfast. He had reason to believe that the feeling there expressed was a growing one, that it extended to many of the leading Protestants in Ireland, and this result was owing greatly to the manner in which the question had been treated. He was about to move a reso lution, of which it might be said, that in all the principles contained in it her Majesty's Government entirely concurred. He candidly avowed that that was not the view with which he moved the resolution.—( Hear, from the Duke of Wellington.) The principles professed in the resolution were principles which the Noble Lords opposite unscrupulously opposed when they were not in power, though it was true that they paid some lip homage to them at the moment of their accession to office. But were there no other proofs but that petition of the necessity of inquiry into this subject ? Another Noble Friend of his had presented another petition, signed by the same class of persons, to the same effect. He was sure that nothing but an imperious sense of duty could have induced the first sub ject in Ireland—the Duke of Leinster—to have taken the chair at the meeting at which this petition was agreed to. There was also the letter, which they must have seen, of a Noble Lord much opposed to the leader of the Repeal movement—the Earl of Shrewsbury. All these things proved the necessity of an inquiry into the conduct of the Government. He felt serious ala' m at the state of Ireland ; but trusted that peace would still be preserved. He then proceeded to the repeal agita tion. When that agitation first became formidable, two courses were open to the Government, by following up either of which with perseverance, they would have led to sepa rate advantages —( Hear, hear, hear.) They might have interfered at first by proclamation to put down these meetings. If this course was to be taken afterwards—if it was resolved that it should be taken—it would have been the most straightforward and most manly course to have taken it at once. More than this he would say, that if the Government had evidence enough to establish a charge of sedition, it was their bounden duty to have interfered.—( Hear, hear.) But by the course they (lid take, though the advantages were con tingent, the evils were immediate. From the violence of some of their declarations at the time, he certainly inferred that they wished to strike but dared not. The best chance of the success of their policy was that their vigorous acts should be accompanied by remedial measures. Common prudence should have dictated to them, that if no rigour was to be shown, need less irritation should have been avoided. But what did they do ? They took that most senseless step of dismissing the Irish magistrates. With this one exception, they appeared determined to persevere in what some of their friends called the do-nothing policy. But just when they seemed on the point of reaping the fruits of forbearance, when the agitation would either have (lied out, or, passing a certain point, would have taken another form, at that moment they altered their course, and stepped in, and oceeded by proclamation against these meetings, thus giving one section of their own party not only a triumph over the majo. rity of the people, but a triumph over themselves.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lc - Td cheered, but it must be recollected that that was not a new view of the subject. He was not generally inclined to attribute to any party, particularly to persons in office, ar ticles which appeared in periodical publications. But in the month of September last, there certainly did appear an article in a periodical publication which, if he were not much mistaken (and he had studied the style), was the production of an old friend of his (the Noble Marquis here turned towards the Marquis of Clanricarde) than whom no one was better acquainted with Ireland. The article he alluded to was in the Quarterly Re view. —( Ministerial cheers.) It must be remembered that the opinions there stated were not his. (The Noble .Marquis here read a passage from the Quarterly Review of September last, in which it was stated the meetings would wear themselves out, and that the Fabian policy would at length defeat them; and that the mischief that would result from the opposite course would be incalculable.) He (the Marquis of Normanby) had no hesitation in saying that he agreed with these sentiments. But the Government had taken a different course— they issued their proclamation to prevent the meeting at Clon tart ; and before corning to that part of the subject, he wished to know whether any Noble Lord had ever heard one single person in private conversation defend the conduct of the Go vernment in that case—whether they had ever heard of so much rashnes . s,*alter so much vacillation, exhibited by any Govern ment ? If it had not been for the active interference of those from whom the Govornment had no right to expect support, what would have been the consequence ?—( Hear, hear, from the Duke of Wellington.) lie should like to hear some explanation of the matter. If it was defended in that House, it would be the first time that it was defended in any quarter.— ( Hear, hear, from the Duke of Wellington, and other Noble Lords oni (he Ministeral benches.) Noble Lords cheered him, but he was sure he would not hear from them such taunts as were used against the parties who had so interfered—taunts of cowardice—because they had obeyed the law. He was sure he would not hear such a defence, and he hoped that Noble Lords opposite who cheered would put their explanation in a more intelligible shape. He would not trouble the House at any length about his opinions respecting repeal, became he had stated those opinions already as strongly as any of their Lordships, and that too not within that House, but face to face with a portion of the Irish people, who had previously advocated repeal. In the year 1836, an address had been presented to him, when in the south of Ire land, from one of the Ridings of the county of Cork, in which it was stated that they had advocated the doctrine of repeal, but had given it up in consequence of the measures they expected from the Government. He, on that occasion, stated his sincere opinion, that the repeal was not for the benefit of Ire land, and that his sincerity in that opinion was in proportion to his love for Ireland. The people stated to him on that occasion that all they asked was equality with the British people, and a reciprocity of rights and principles. With less, they sa id, they could not be content, and with less, he said, they should not be content. He thought that the present condition of the sister nation was such as to require all the benefits which could be derived from progressive legislation ; but it must have progressive legislation, it could not be acquired by a re peal of the union. He should still say, notwithstanding that opinion, that the question of the repeal of the union was one which was open to discussion ; for, although injurious as its consummation might be to the kingdom, yet it was only the restoration of an Act which existed many years ago, and which Act when it was repealed was opposed by many of the most eminent of both countries, amongst whom was the re spected late Lord Holland. He therefore denied the right to impute to the Irish people a spirit of " wild" enthusiasm, when they sought to repeal an Act which had been opposed by such men as those to whom he just now alluded, and the more particularly so when the machinery by which this Act was carried was such as not to bear investigation or to meet the daylight, and had been in its origin opposed by , the leading men of the country. In repeating what he said in the year 1836, with respect to his opinion of repealing the union, he Was alone actuated by the most sincere love of Ireland and the Irish people. He most certainly must dissent from the prin ciple which the present Ministry seemed to involve in the last speech from the throne, namely, that they were, even in the slightest degree, bound to abide by a declaration made in a former reign. What, he would ask, was the intent of a dissolution of Parliament, but to take the sense of the people, 1844 - . and therefore how was a new Parliament to he held toed WHATINCLIFFE—Oh, dear. Now, gden. responsible for the d ec l arat i ons made in a previous The Martinis of NORMANBY—" The first detachment one ?—( Hear, hear.) In seven years after the declaration under the liev. Dean having halted, expressed tin `ir thanks of the union with Scotland, the Duke of Argyle waited in per- in warm terms to that gentleman, gave three' 4: - . son upon her Majesty, and said that to such an extent had dis- cheer s fur him, mot then, deploying round, took up the 1 7 -I T, e. coot ent now existed, that the nation must consider the uulon assigned to there." Now he asked Noble Lords was n: at thin dissolved. He (the Earl of Normanby) thought that One best military array ? Was it not the chnrch militant in a most T 7 ietachm an e k n: way to repress the agitation—which was so much deplored by creditable poeition s arid diet the Government p ta prosecute ISsve their Lordships—was to apply a remedy to the grieva nces o f th e W ar i ng ?—( Cheers.) The country. There might be such a thing as persevering attempt s I re l and, at the time of hi r Pele :7 2ti )be onl, 1 1ord, h a . drepe t ßte e d S t e h e e re dec r l y f arl ot: to create turbulence and disaffection by a denial of justice.— tions of Sir Robert Peel on assumlfse the reins of Government ( Hear, hear.) Let their Lordships go back, let them freshen —that the policy of the Govertmeent in respect to . up their recollections, and say if they knew of no phrases used , Ireland should be of a generous and conciliatory cha -Meer, hear. )—no stringent me-sures suggested—no re- raster. This promise was made in 1541, and the only medics refused which were calculated to embitter the ' generous Bill which bad been paesed was the Arms' Dill.— feelings of the Irish and provoke them to disaffection? Why, I ( Laughter. ) With reference to that Bill, he thOu ' 5 which the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, when) however, had occurred was calculated to revive the apprehensiod ~ he admitted, from the kindliness of his nature was incapable i were originally entertained as to the manner in which ;!- would of a persevering effort to anoy, so as to excite—but had not Ibe executed.—( Hear, hear.) But for the presence of '".:-; ght what his Noble and Learned Friend, if so he might call him, un- I Gore Jones, a stipendiary magi trate, the magistrates woo °,' happily used a phrase, in speaking of the Irish, which had sunk have done what the Government. which brought in the Hilt deep into their minds? If they condemned so strongly the declared was never intended.—(Hear, hear.) Now, having application of the word " Saxon" to the English, surely they given this notice of motion, he might be expected to t say a few ought to recolle c t th e a ppli ca ti on o f t h e word " al i en " to the t wordson some of the topics which had been opened in petitionie Irish . I presented by his Noble Friend, signed by a considerable nom 'Fire LORI) CHANCELLOR — W e II , b ut that was two I ber of the respectable Roman Catholics and Protestants o f Ire- Parliaments back—( Greet laughter.) I land. lie could not avoid saying that he corieideeed that the and The Marquis of NORMAN BY--That was the best present state of the Irish Church required further iniSnirY , defence of the expression, then, which it appeared the Noble I that, always taking it as the first object, that that tenet, and Learned Lord had it in his power to make.—( Laughter.) I should be adequate to the wants of the Protestants of Irs , .. Church Well, he must say, he thought it was too seri ous a subject to I the whole question should be open for the consideration of 1-, - "" jest upon, and he was sorry to be cenpelled to think that neither I liament. He thought it very desirable that any distinction's . ' two Parliaments, nor many more, per h aps, than two Parlia- I which existed between the two religions should be done away S menss, would suffice to do away with the evil effects it had ; and he considered it necessary for the tranquillity of Ireland produced.—( Hear, hear.) And in the days when that ex- that the Catholic religion should be placed on a footing of iiression was used—in 1f336--other phrases were used whose equality with the Protestant. In almost every country where effect had scarcely been less injurious- It was the common there was a mixed population, consisting of Catholics and Pro. , saying, if not of the Noble Lords the n e n the Ministerial testants, the religions of the two classes were placed on equal benches, certainly of those who were their adherents, that the footing.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt said, at the time of Government of that day was solely kept in office by the Irish. the Union, that it was not easy to say, on general prin- By making this distinction, they were as e ff ec t ua ll y d epart i ng eiples, what system of c h urc h es t a bli s h men t would be from the principles of the union as any r e p ea l er ever did, an d t h e free from difficulty. By m an y it was cons id ere d th a t the re intention tube implied could only b e th a t th ey l oo k e d upon I re l and ligion of the majority should be placed on an equal footing with as a province, instead of an integral p or ti on o f th e B r i t i s h em - that of the minority, but those who applied that principle with. Aire.—( Hear, hear.) In that opinion he was supported by a out qualification forgot the relation between English and Irish very high authority—indeed, no less than that of an honoured interests. Whilst Ireland remained a separate kie'gdom, said , friend of his now in the grave. He alluded to the late Baron Mr. Pitt, full concessions could not be made to the Catholies Smith, father of the Attorney-General for Ireland, and - of without endangering the stability of the Constitutimo itself whom hereafter lie should have a few words to say.--( Hear, These words were perfectly consistent with the article Pf ,the and a laugh.) In the year 1833, Baron Smith, n o t s p ea ki ng I U n i on, which maintained that the Established Church in ...7.res amongst private friends, or even at a public meeting, but from land should be united to the Established Church in Enolande the judgment-seat, had declared that as long as England was but used the remarkable phrase—" in like manner as tilte true to the principles of the union, it ought to last, and would Church of Scotland." He also referred to the circumstaesse last; but should the time arvive when she looked upon her as that it had been said that the establishment of Presbytery So a province, instead of a part of England—( Hear, hear)—then Scotland was a most impolitic as well as wicked thing. her independence as a nation would he claimed by her people. There was much in all this that called for their serious atten- Such was the opinion of Baron Smith. But the real fact was, tion. With respect to the payment of the Catholic clergy, that the Noble Lords opposite were always attempting to act without giving any opinion upon that point, he thought that upon a system which must defeat itself—they were always the present was a most unfortunate moment for such a proposi trying to govern Ireland by a minority of her people—a princi- lion to he brought forward. He was borne out in this opinion ple which never had succeeded, and never would succeed. by the language used by Mr. Grattan at the time of the Union. Was that attempt made in Canada ? It was there felt that the He said that the Government of that day was ready to pay the only way to secure the affections of the people was to govern clergy, if they added treason to the people to their subser through a majority, and not through a minority. And what- viency to a Court. But if the clergy were to be paid, it must ever exorbitant pretensions might have gro wn out of the course be by salaries, not by bribes ; they must be paid an income of proceeding adopted their, lie thought they wer e more than for the performance of religious duties, not a bribe for'political counterbalanced by the advantages which had been gained. It apostacy. Without saying that he did not lament their having had been often said that all the influence of himself and his taken such an active part in the agitation, he thought there Noble Friend behind him, in Ireland, was owi ng t o th e p a t ron - was much reason for seeing the principle of Mr. Grattan ap age being placed a t th e disposal of Mr. O'Connell. It , plied. But ho could not mention that body, wffich had been so had been found necessary to place the patronage in much abused, without rendering to them his tribute of praise Canada, with a very slight reservation, in the hands of those for the activity and zeal with which they had always assisted who represented the majority of th e i r countrymen. He would him in preserving the peace and detecting offences.—( Hear, take this opportunity of reterrins to what he had said on this hear.) It was common to attribute much of the misfortune subject on the motion of the Noble Earl in the year 1837. and crimes of Ireland to the religion of the people of that corm- The Noble Marquis then quoted his own words with respect to try ; but he thought the misfortunes of the Irish people the distributions of patronage, declaring that though Mr. arose much more from their relations with mart 'C on nell ll had occasional communicatie were ons with him, I ns a p p li- than from their relations with their Maker. In no country in cations the subject of patronag fewer han those of the world, in spite of all their privations and sufferings, wag almost any other Member of Parliament, whilst he did not in there a people among whom he domestic virtues were the least bind or control the exercise of his judgment. Ile more universally practised. No, it was the great struggle' did not deny that the Government c o ns ulted M r . O'Connell in for existence, which their legislation had not secured for them, reference to many appointments; and with reference to the charge from which all their misery arose. With respect to the ques of receiving from him support, he honestly confessed that this don of the Irish franchise, the declaration lately made by the was a circumstance which, considering how he carried with Government was certainly a most welcome inconsistency, aft e r him the hearts and affections of the Irish people, formed any- the declarations that had fallen from that party. The number' thing but a cause of regret. Such was the statement of electors in England and Scotland was 850,000 ;in Ireland• which he made in 1837 ; and he appealed to his successors, it was 150,000, in a population of 8,000,000. If they whether-the appointments which he had made, whether in took the numbers of the Members with respect to the the Church, the law, or the police, had not been marked by population, the disproportion was the same. --:(Hear.) an efficient discharge of the various duties to beperformed.— O n e of the complaints of the Irish people was, that their inte ( Hear, hear.) H e had felt that the great difficulty of go- rests were neglected and the resources of their country not: verning Ireland arose from the way in which the Catholic developed, and that the natural tendency of having the Parliament question was carried, the persons by whom it was carried, and sitting in Westminster was to promote absenteeism. Those the time at which it was carried—being thirty were matters which demanded further consideration. They years later than it s h ou ld h ave b een , It was embodied the complaints of a large portion of the Irish people, unfortunate that the Relief Bill should have been who were not prepared to advocate repeal. The number of carried at tire sacrifice of public character ; and with respect Members ought certainly to be increased, and the fran to the mode, it was coupled with many provisions whi c h were chise extended, so as to put Ireland upon a perfect utterly useless in themselves, and diminished the gratitude of equality with England as respected representation. The the Irish people. But that question having been carried, I other night he had adverted in a few words to the think it unnecessary to advert to the succeeding years, when I Landlord and Tenant Commission. Ha regretted that was employed in another part of the world. At the same time somethin g more satisfactory had not beet elicited by he could not pass over those years in the presence of his Noble so me o f his Noble Friend's remarks on the subject. and Gallant Friend behind him without rendering a tribute to Howev er , there could be no doubt that the relation his zeal in the cause of Ireland, a n d t o hi s l ove fo r th e Irish of landlord and tenant in Ireland called for some amelioration.. people, displayed amidst difficulties fr o m all quarters, and at It was notorious in the constitution of society in Ireland a time when he was thwarted by those from whom he that the landlord had a monopoly of the means of existence— , might have looked for support.—(Cries Of " Hear, hear.") that he had the means of enforcing his bargains which did not ' One of the great objects of his Government, and that of his ex i s t el sew h ere . H e did not recommend " fixity of tenure" Noble Friend behind him, was to purify the administration of as the mode of adjusting the question, but he thought that in justice, and restore the confidence of . the people in that ad- the course of the inquiry the Government must ascertain what ministration. The abstract love of justice which Sir John was the most advisable regulation to adopt; the proportion Davis spoke of as animating the Irish people still remained which rent bore to produce in Ireland was that in a farm among them ; it had lasted so long, perhaps from its being in whe re produce was 1501. the share of the landlord in point of Ireland a rare luxury.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Go- rent was 1001., whereas in England out of 300/. as produce, vernrnent. by the dismissal of the magistrates, struck a great the landlord received fur rent 100/. That account was taken blow at that confidence. It was said to have been done in from a very able and compendious statement drawn up by Mr, consequence of declarations made in that House of Parliament. Wiggins, who had been a pp o i n t e d t o i nqu i re an d report upon This seemed to have some in s ince r ity, as it was i mposs ibl e to the subject. With respect to the commission of crime believe that the Chancellor of Ireland did not know what were in Ireland, he thought that the time had passed the view's of his Government with respect to repeal. When by when certain specific crimes committed against a Viceroy of Ireland was once attacked in that House on some landlords, instead of being attributed to the depravity of indi question, he defended himself, by stating that he never read the viduals as they should be, were attributed to the religion of newspapers.— (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The dismissed the people. A gentleman, writing on the occasion of the late magistrates when charged, might have said the same. Minis- Finnoe tragedy, had stated that there should not have been tors had occasionally made many declarations on different sub- Catholic policemen, arid that that outrage was a part of a re jects—on the Catholic question, on th e corn-laws—and those ligious persecution. Now he (the Marquis of Normanby) was declarations had never been followed out; nay, the persons happy to state, what was fortunately the case, viz., that the in who made them had been the first to act against them.— dividual who had so distinguished himself in defence of his (Hear and laughter). The dismissal of the magistrates was master on that occasion was a Roman Catholic. He would an utterly inefficient step; more deliberate notice ought to wish to impress upon their Lordships the idea that the situa have been taken. Again, the people of Ireland had confi- tion of that country, in respect to the spread of civilisation, was dente in the stipendiary magistrates, and the first step of the not so different from that of this country, because there civilise- Government was to dismiss ten of them. With respect to tion and education were making rapid strides, and in consequence their law appointments, again, they were particularly urrfor- a r i g h t t hi n ki ng sp i r i t of public opinion was being created, and tunate. Wino was the first judge appointed ? Baron Lefroy, this feeling was not alone confined to Great Britain, but had also who, s non after the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act, extended to Europe generally, the people of which, through the was not allowed to go the circuit, on account of some declare- medium of-the press, were closely observing the conduct of this tion he made qualifying his allegiance in consequence of the country towards Ireland. It was true, that he might be car passing of that Act. Another question, in which the Irish ried away in expressing hi s o pi n i ons by hi s p ar ti a li ty towards; people were:much interested, was that of national education. Ireland, and might be induced to speak more strongly of the Yet another judge they appointed was Mr. Sergeant Jackson, wants and grievances of that country; but still he could calmly who was violently opposed to it. But all sunk into insignifl- say, that any one who (independent of political considerations) cance compared with the appointment of Mr. Smith to the looked at the history of that country, must acknowledge that Attorney-Generalship of Ireland. At a meeting in Dublin the misery of the country wa s s o l e ly t o b e a tt r ib u t e d t o th e in the year 1837, when all those in attendance were of one misrule to which it had been subjected. If their Lord party and the same politics as himself, that gentleman was re- ships were prepared to go on governing through the me ported to have said of the Roman Catholics that he was sorry dium of a minority of the people of Ireland, and to say that circumstances induced him to believe that the (the Roman Catholics) had very littl e regar d f or th e sanctity y to abide by the re su lt o f p ar ti a l a d m i n i s t ra ti on o f j us ti ce , w h en of an oath, and had v er y li tt l e h es i tat i on in Y a prosecution wa s b e f ore th e C our t s , w hi c h v it a ll y a ff ec t e d th e violating interests of the country, and on that occasion excluded from their consciences. Such a statement as that ought to have been a l as ti ng di n pta lifi cat i on for any office the jury all those belongi n g to the f a ith p ro f esse d by the great body of the people—if they w ere i nc li ne d t o ex hibit to the under Governm en t. If M r. S m i t h did not believe what nations of the earth the extraordinary spectacle of the he then said, but had uttered it in the excitement of a party finest country—and the m os t p eacea bl e a t p resen t—i n a state speech, he sho we d a d e fi c i ency o f j u d gment, and discretion, of military occupation, they would pursue the course which and every qualification which Noble Lords should have sought had been followed through centuries of misgovernment, and in the person to be appointed to such an office as that of At- reject all inquiry ; but if they chose to win the feelings and torney-General. But if he did believe it, then he (the Mar- affections of a loyal and brave people, and to give stability to quis of Normanby) must say that the unhappy man who the empire, and security to the throne, they sh odd redress the entertained such a belief of not only seven-eighths of his grievances of that long oppressed country. The Noble Mar countrymen, but also of the majority of the Christian world, quis concluded by moving, " that this House, having in answer was totally unfit for the situation he now filled. It was not his to her Alejesty's most gracious speech, assured her Majesty intention to attack Mr. Smith, but rather the Government that they entered into her Majesty's feelings, in forbearing through Mr. Smith—the Government that had appointed such from observations on events in Ireland, in respect to which a gentleman to office. lie must say it was highly improper proceedings are pending before the peeper legal tribunals, feel it for a Government to have as Attorney-General a person in consequence, to be their duty to take the earliest oppor whom they could never raise to the bench ; for it was utterly tunny, when no prejudice can arise therefrom in the minds impossible for any Government ever to raise Mr. Smith to the of the jury, to record their intention to examine into the causes bench. With respect to the prosecutions and the charge of of the discontent now unhappily too prevalent in that country : conspiracy, he on ly re p ea t e d now w h a t he had stated also, that with a view to the removal of existing evils, and the in the commencement of his observations on the subject, viz. restoration of confidence, this House look to the development that he thought it the duty of Government, if they had had of the only true principles of a perfect union, by securing to her evidence of seditious meetings, and libels, to have prosecuted Majesty's subjects, of all classes arid persuasions, in all parts of directly for those charges, and not to have introduced this thee United Kingdom, the practical enjoyment of equal rights." new system of a monster indictment with all that accumulation Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that when his Noble Friend of charges. The effect of it would be to excite in a portion of the English people, wino would otherwise be indifferent to the yesterday placed on the table of their Lordships' H o use, the resolutions he intended to submit to their consideration, ho state of Ireland, a feeling that there was unfairness in the con- confessed he did not understand them, because it did not ap duct of the affair. With respect to the panel of the jury, the pear that there was any precise mark or object attempted in only answer that was given to account for the omission of the them. He at once understood the course which was being Roman Catholics from it was, that the slip containing their taken in the other House by moving for a Committee of the names had been lost. Ile thought that the first object in a such as this should have been to have i m p anne ll e d a fair eewhole House, in which, if obtained, resolutions would be intro matterduced by the Noble Lord who moved for that Committee, and impartial jury, and could that be expected where there charging himself and friends on the present Government with was a total exclus on of Catholics? the commission of high and grave offences. There was no- The Duke of WELLINGTON (emphatically)—Yes. thing, however, of such intention in the resolutions of the The Marquis of NORMANBY would ask, was not this a Noble Marquis; but what was wanting in this respect in the question between the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland—did resolutions was amply made up by the speech which intro not the opposite party appeal di rec tly t o th e Protestants to duced t h em.— ( H ear, h ear. ) Th e N o bl e M arqu i s u n doubtedly in come forward and register . ? Th e G overnmen t oug ht t o h ave had made very serious charges against the Government his taken special care to have chosen a. jury which could not be speech. Well, he (Lord Wharncliffe) was quite ready subject to the imputation of partiality. In support to meet them.—{Cheers.) His charges were distinctly of his opinion, he would road to their Lord- made—he would meet him distinctly upon them. He ships an extract from the Dublin Evening Mail. would endeavour, first, to meet his charges in respect The purport of that extract was that all questions resolve to that agitation which led at last to a conviction, in the themselves into one of religion and not of politics, and that m i nd of every dispassionate person, that a conspiracy of a most the agitation which was now carried on was solely dependent dangerous and illegal character, existed in Ireland. The Noble upon religious animosity. Those were the words of the organ Lord said that in dealing with this agitation, and with this con of the Tory party. With respect to the formation of the jury, s siracy, they had pursued a wrong course from the beginning. therefore, he should say that it was most open t o th e imputa- the said there were two courses open to the Government. One tion of partiality. As to the charge of the Chief Justice of of these was to allow (as the Government had done, and Ireland, he (tine Marquis of Normanby) was perfectly well wrongly done, as the Noble Marquis argued) the meetings to aware of the various difficulties by which the Learned be held, and let them wear themselves out ; the other was to Judge was surrounded, but he felt almost deluded into the take instant and determined measures at once to put an end idea when he was reading the Learned Jndge's charge that to them ; that they adopted a course at first which at last they he was reading the speech of the Solicitor-General instead. abandoned without reason. Now he ( Lord Wharncliffe) would He would not further refer to the conduct of the Judge than prore the Noble Marquis to be wrong in both his positions.— to f o r a that it was, happily, usual to find them . adopting a ( Hear, hear.) He begged to inform him that the Government very differnt tone and manner when addressing juries in the never did suppose, even for one instant, that, by allowing these courts of England. A Noble Friend behind him had called meetings to gore, on, they would wear themselves out. They his attention to a circumstance in which another Irish saw from the first that there was danger to the Judge shone, in a manner more conspicuous than peace of the country from these meetings. They thought creditable. On a trial for political libel, in charging the jury, then, as they thought now, that the bringing of that Learned Judge was reported to have said—" Gentlemen of g reat bodies of people together, and the trying to the jury, this is a most diabolical lib e l, an d t h at i s not mincing orce these peo pl e o n by exciting speeches to a particular line the matter."—( Laughter.) Very happy was he (Lord of conduct was as illegal as it was dangerous.—( Cheers). They Normanby) to think that a very different tone and manner prepared to stop this agitation and suppress these meetings, prevailed in the courts of justice in England.--( Hear, hear.) but they did so warily and cautiously—perhaps waiting for a !Imre were many subjects in connexion with th e s t a t e o f Ireland goo d opportunity when their determination could successfully to which he should have liked to have directed their Lordships' be put in force.—(Hear, hear.) The question was to prove consideration, especially with regard to the appointments made to the satisfaction of a Court and jury, and to the satisfaction by the Government; but he thought it would be better, under of the reasonable and reflecting portion of the community, that all the circumstances, to postpone them for the present. Were these meetines were illegal, and that they ought to be sup their Lordships indisposed, at a future period, to grant him an pressed. The difficulty was to provide the proof that the inquiry, at all events he should have an opportunity, in meetings were for an illegal purpose. He quite agreed with moving for papers, to bring those matters before their Lord ships and the co u n t r y. Th ere was , h owever , one matter the Noble Marqui s , th a t t o see k f or a re peal of the union way. not illegal in itself—t o see k f or th a t - was c learly every man's which he could not refrain from alluding to at the present mo- right who might desire the change ; but the offence here was ment. It referred to a clerical appointment, and was worth for seeking that legal object by means which most indubitably the consideration of their Lordships. It had pleased a Right were. of an illegal character.—(Cheers.) The. Government lion. Baronet in the other House (Sir Robert Peel), when had been reproached on all sides by its friends for not sooner reading a letter of instruction to the Lord-Lieutenant in Ire- acting. They had been called a dosnothing Government for land, on the subject of clerical appointments, to do him (Lord allowing the organisation to proceed to the length which it Normanby) the honour of complimenting him on the judg- did before they interfered—but they had only waited until they ment he had shown inn his selections.—(Hear.) Hap- could effectually act. Their opponents, on the other hand, pily, he (Lord Normanby) could appeal to that House, in said, now that they had interfered, " Oh, you should have let reference to his appointments, for, on a former occasion, Noble the meetings wear themselves out." And had they done outs Lords had expressed their approval of them. He begged, how- and the meetings had still gone on (for wear themse l v es new it) ever, to ask Noble Lords on the Treasury benches whether, they would not have done, and well their opponenstts k to upbraid of all cleriCal candidates for honours and appointments in Ire- then these very persons would have been the fir st land, the) , held the Rev. Holt Waring to be most qualified, h humility of demeanour, and quiet, unobtrusive performance of before they did anything else, was to tak a e t h ° a blow, which they the dtftles - of his sacred office ?—(Hear, hear.) In an account such measures, as would ensure success to this agitation. But Y and to taunt them for doing so. He said, then, nc. which 'he had read, in a Government newspaper, of the famous had from the first determined togiveaboveall for their conduct at meeting at-Hillsborough, it was stated, in the description he the Noble Lord blamed themt believe tin fir e i , r a h n u d s a in d e o s p s t , the Noble Marquis knew referred to, that "in a few minutes the first detachment headed Clontarf. Why he did n o a a b o ut when he said that this by the Rev. Holt Waring, and preceded by the union jack, what he was g w as to the last. Why, at that very time Clon was now seen descending the hill—a close, dark, intense mass far e Dean"-- meetings. N ow e ar of human beings, comprising not less than twenty thousand e-a-ng!mmeeenlitns'hadabselent m it ad b e e fo r r e lr o l u d e i e n t g ed si t x ha o t r , asletsh'eonugmhoarte Tarasueh men. This, the first detachment, under the Rev. his zeal to defend his i unjustifiable that those designed to be enacted character, Lord WHARNCLIFFE—Very like the parish priests. .. and 3fullaghmast there had been proceedings of a most The Marquis of NORMANBY—In . I artisan, the Noble Lord casts a slur on the pa rish priests.