The Sun. — London, England, 1839-08-09 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION THE LORD 31AY0It'S VISIT TO THE ARSENAL AT WOOLWICH. Monday last the Lord Mayor left London at Two o'Clock, attended by the Water Bailiff, : ',our Masters, and other officers connected with .•odservancy of the Thames, for the purpose of in- F p c oting the state of the colliers in the Pool, and the sailors in various parts of the river. The space re quired by the new bye laws was most completely main tained ; the colliers were regularly berthed, and such order was preserved as drew forth the highest appro bation of the able discharge of the duties of the Har bour Master from his Lordship. After the in spection, his Lordship visited the Arsenal at Woolwich, where he was received in the most respectful and hospitable manner by Lord Bloomfield, the Com mandant, and other officers of the garrison, and con ducted over the different stores, in which he viewed the raoid process of manufacturing and filling car tridges, and other works connected with the science of war. Lord and Lady Bloomfield, and the Lord Mayor, proceeded in a carriage followed by other carriages ordered by the Commandant, in which the Lord Mayor's party were accommodated, to Plum stead Common, where they witnessed the magnificent firing of Congreve rockets, which were discharged against a bank at the distance of 600 yards. One of the rockets entered part of the side of a ship placed be fore the bank as a target, to the depth of upwards of eight inches. The havoc which sued cniues uffiestruetion must makt!in a field of battle pow: fully reprci,nted by the seourin; wijeh thirty of rr , .ll,a(ious missiles g.0. - e the grounds, and the frightful force with which they penetrated the mound of earth against. which they were discharged. Upon leaving the Common the Lord Mayor went to view the Repository ; at 7 o'clock the Lady Mayoress and her son joined the party at theresidence of Lord Bloomfield, who valet' a most spiAidid dinner on the occasion, and ;n tilt, evening opened his house to many of the officers and the ladies of the surrounding neighbourhood. SURREY ZOOLOGICAL GARDENS. The fine collection of wild beasts and the fiery per foi m7.aces in the evening, including the eruption of M.)unt Hecla, the sky rockets and the " Koniaphos tic" ( Anglo-Greek for " lime light") continue to at tract great crowds to this innocent and instructive place of amusement. Last evening notwithstanding the dubious state of the weather, the crowd was :con sider ible, and on Tuesday evening there could not have been fewer than from 3,000 to 4,000 persons present. The effect of the intense and beautiful light on the vast and varied multitude, on the trees, the water, and the .•nowy crags, and glaciers of the artificial mountain, was justly admired and elicited general marks of approba tion. The working of the volcano is perhaps of all the performances the only one liable to objection. The various lights, blue, green, yellow, red, and whit• which it successively emits, have too much the appearance of artifice, and the throes of the labouring mountain fol low each other more rapidly than those produced by the first artist, Nature. The great conflagration ,however, at the close, with the magnificent display of rockets and fireworks shot up from the centre of a hillock in violent combustion on the plain, makes ample amends and bids fair to take the " shine," out of a neighbouring and rival establishment. It has this advantage too over Vauxhall, that all the performances are over before ten o'clock. COMMERCIAL GAS COMPANY. Yesterday a most numerous and respectable meeting of the proprietors of shares in the Commercial Gas Light and Coke Company, took place at the London Tavern, in Bishopsgate-street, for the purpose of con sidering the propriety of altering, amending, or repeal ing certain clauses in the deed of settlement constitut ing the Company. Shortly before three o'clock, Mr. Goldie was called to the Chair, when the Report of the Directors and Committee was read by the Solicitor to the Company. That Report stated that by the deed of settlement it was provided that the Directors should have power to make calls every three months, upon giving one month's notice. That, in order to carry out the object of the Company, and enable them to light the district before the winter, it was desirable that a much shorter notice should be given, and that calls should be made oftener, and for that purpose it was recommended that powers should be given to the Directors to make all future calls at intervals of one month, giving to the proprietors fourteen days' notice. The Report also recommended the immediate payment of the calls that had been already made ; and also that the Directors should have the power to add, if neces sary, three more members to their body. Upon this Report being agreed to, a resolution was proposed and carried, for the purpose of adopting the first recommendation of the Report, that of shorten ing, the time for making calls. Upon the next resolution being put, calling upon the proprietorsito give power to the Directors to add to their number, Mr. GOWAaD opposed the resolution, on the ground that the greater the number of Directors, the greater the amount required to remunerate them for their ser vices. _ _ The CMAIRMAN could assure the Honourable Pro prietor that the Directors had no selfish end or object in view in proposing the addition of three gentlemen into the Direction, their only desire was, to let in, if possible, men of influence and capital into the Direction.— (Cheers.) So far from the Directors benefiting them selves in a pecuniary view, by adding to the number, they would decrease any amount that might be voted to them, when the Company became a flourishing one, because the sum would have to be divided among ten instead of seven. Mr. BINGLEY said, that he stood alone in the Committee, in opposing the addition to the Directors, believing the present Board to be quite numerous enough to carry out all the objects of the Company. Mr. PILGRIM agreed in the necessity for an addition to the body of Directors, believing that if the number of that body had heen increased more effective mea sures would have been adopted than had been at pre sent. He did not say this in disparagement of the present Directors, because he felt certain they had done all in their power for the interests of the Com pany. He thought it was most desirable that every thing should be done which would enable them to have the district lighted before the winter set in, and thereby lead. to the destruction of a Company that had behaved so ill to the inhabitants of that part of the metropolis. Mr. RooEas was sure if the proprietors gave the Di rectors the power to add to their numbers they would not exercise it unnecessarily. If even that addition to the direction increased the expense, which he denied that it would, that would be nothing compared with the good that would result to the proprietors. He trusted that every proprietor who had left that room would put his shoulder to the wheel, not only by paying their calls into the Bank, but by persuading their neighbours to becoMe shareholders and consumers of the gas of the Company.--(Cheers.) The more consumers they could get the sooner the light would be procured. He would not say a word against other Companies, but he .vould remind proprietors that the chimney was up, the ;:navy pot was at the top, and they only wanted the flue to hang round it.—(Great laughter.) Mr. BARRON thought the Directors ought to be strengthened. Mr. BINGLEY still retained the opinion he had for merly entertained that the number of Directors was sufficient. A show of hands was then taken by the Chairman, 56 were held up for giving power to the Directors to in crease their numbers, and 26 against it. The motion was consequently carried, and the resolution agreed to. The CHAIRMAN said that the decision to which the meeting had come was of so much importance that it requ'red the confirmation of two other meetings. It was riot necessary for shareholders to be absolutely present, but all they had to do was to authorise other parties to act for them. His advice to the sharholders was to pay their calls promptly, and then there could he no doubt of their being able to light up that district before th e w i nter set i n . He trusted that the Share !..rolders would do that voluntarily which the Directors had now power given them to enforce at the expiration o f 30 days. (Hear, hear.) - A vote of thanks was then given to the Chairman , and the meeting separated. eolonel Wyndham has made a donation of one Landred guineas towa rds th e f ormation of the " Petworth Agricultural Association." THE LATE FATAL G IC ACCIDENT.-A re trned inquiry took place on Wedne sday . aged 20 months, .Thursday Wakley, M. P., on the body o f a chil morning before Mr. named, R. W. Belton, who was killed on u dnven by Mr. C. square, The prin ing last by being run over by a even- Tilbury, of Mount-street, Grosvenor-'8; : s No. 3, c ip a l witnesses examined were Mrs. Upper Harley-street ; Miss Christian a Leslie ekorfdat!gb.. ter; and Lord W. Butler, brother of the' parsing r g e et. ()monde. They all deposed that they were M arquis of Thursday evening last through Great CumberlZl They did not see the child knocked down or run over, but a cry of alarm made them turn round, when they saw the c hild lying in the middle of the street. They all said that the gig was driven at a moderate pace until the acc id ent bad occurred ; a nd Mrs. Leslie, in answer to the Coroner, said, " I think the driver of the gig was not to blame with referehee to causing t he acc ident, but I do not think he acted riglit. in driving off without waiting to see what had happened." Miss Ann Weeden, and a soldier, of the Grenadier Guards, proved that the horse knocked down the child with its off foreleg, and that the ?ffwheel of the vehicle passed over the child's body, killing it en the spot. After a long consultation the Jury returned the following verdict :—"Accidental death, wjth a deodand of 201. on the horse and gig." The foreman, at the re quest of the Jury, wished the Coroner to censure Mr. Tilbury for having driven away after the accident. Mr. Tiihury was censured accordingly. METROPOLITAN POLITICAL SUMMARY. The Globe of last evening bears testimony in the follow ing terms to the general good conduct of the Irish Catholic priesthood, and their endeavours to maintain the tran quillity cf the country r—" The Roman Catholic clergy have evinced their zealous anxiety to bring to justice the authors and instigators of those dark combinations, which they are so flippantly accused of fomenting. The witnesses who were brought forward to enlighten tte Com mittee of the House of Lords on that subject, differed in many important respects as to the objects and resources of the Ribbonmen ; but they were unanimous and decided in bearing witness to the ardour with which the Roman Catholic priest hood have employed the power and influence of their office to extinguish all secret societies whatever. Some parti cular instances are stated of their having rendered most important assistance to magistrates and police officers in securing the peace of the country against those mysterious associations. One remarkable case is mentioned by Mr. Drummond of a successful search for arms in one of the western counties, which had the effect of putting a stop to the progress of Ribbonism in that direction ; and the sue cess of that search was chiefly owing to information fur. nished by the Roman Catholic clergyman.' " The Standard comments as follows on the Shannon Navigation Bill —" The whole history of modern politi cal intrigue will scarcely be found to supply an instance of more unblushing corruption than has been exhibited in the prosecution of this dexterously managed job. The attempt, however, to smuggle through the House a Bill destined to employ no less than half a mil lion of the public money in improving a river, which, by an extraordinary confluence of good luck, runs through some two miles of the property of the •Chancellor of the Exchequer, did not altogether succeed ; since, not withstanding Mr. Spring Rice's political affectation of dig nified indifference, and in spite of the late hour (two o'clock in the morning, if we recollect aright) at which it was brought before the House, the thing has not escaped quite so well as its authors appear to have expected." The Courier speaking on the subject of the Corn-laws, makes the I,llowing cursory allusion to the Bank of Eng land :—" Humiliating as it may have been to the Bank of England to apply for a temporary accommodation to fo reign capitalists, the Directors are entitled to the thanks of the country for having taken the course; without it, a commercial panic would have been unavoidable. Be sides, the Bank is not responsible fer the suicidal policy of the English Aristocracy, who, to gratify their own avarice, subject the country periodically to a financial crisis. The Bank, owing to the mischievous operation of our Corn-laws, is obliged, for years together, to keep a mass of bullion idle in its coffers, and then, in the course of a few months, to let itself be stripped nearly of its last sovereign. It will be several years before this country will completely recover from the drain of specie, caused by the large importations of corn during this year and the last." IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Auousr 8. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Three o'Clock. The Sheriffs of London presented a petition against the Birmingham Police Bill, and praying that the Corporation of Birmingham might be permitted to have the superin tendence of their own Police. DEPOSITS ON RAILROAD BILLS. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that he rose for the purpose of directing the attention of the House to a subject of great importance—he meant the unjust manner in which the Standing Orders of the House relative to the deposits to be made before Railroad Bills could be intro duced into that House operated to the prevention of many undertakings, which were not mere speculations, but were of the greatest possible public importance He need not say one word as to the advantage of railroads, but he would just mention a circumstance to show the ad vantage he himself had derived from them. On Tuesday morning he was at the Warwick Assizes conducting a State prosecution of the greatest public importance, and on Tuesday evening he was in his place in that House, ready to have brought forward this mo tion if the House had not been most unfairly counted out by those who, afraid of meeting the question on its merits, sought to get rid of it in this man ner by a side wind. He did not, however, regret this occurrence, because, in consequence, he was now enabled to bring forward this question when there was a greater attendance, and when, therefore, it would be carried by a greater majority. He could not tell what his Right Hon. Friend ( Mr. P. Thomson)could find amusing in his conduct, but however he might be inclined to defer to him on other subjects, he certainly should not do so on this, because his Hon. Friend had shown that he did not understand the motion which he (the Attorney-General) was about to make. The question was as to the amount of deposit that should be paid before Railway Bills were introduced into that House, or rather in what manner that deposit should be paid. He felt as much aversion to bubble speculations as any man, and was as little inclined to support them, bet he knew that the present plan bad operated most injuriously in putting a stop to many bona fide undertakings. The other House, on reviewing this subject, bad thought that a deposit of five per cent. was sufficient, and accord ingly, by their Standing Order, a deposit to that amount only was required ; but while ten per cent. was required by that House, this determination on the part of the other House was unavailing. No doubt, this regulation prevented many bona fide undertakings being acted upon. What he proposed was, that instead of a deposit of ten per cent. in the first instance, there should be a deposit of five per cent. before the Bill was brought in, and a second deposit of five per cent, before any of the compulsory clauses in the Bill could be acted upon, so that in fact a deposit of 10 per cent. would still be required before any of the works could he undertaken] He would state, from his own knowledge, an instance in which the Standing Order had acted injuriously. There had long existed a bona fide in tention of making a railroad from Newcastle to Edinburgh. There were men of substance and of character willing to un dertake the speculation, but it was a serious thing to have make an advance of 10 per cent. The Bill might not be carried through in one Session, and thus they would have this amount locked up for two years, and during the whole of that time they would be deprived of the use of that por tion of their capital. By this proposition of requiring a deposit of five per cent. before the introduction of the Bill, and a further deposit of five per cent. before the works could be commenced, they would still require a deposit of ten per cent., only it would be paid in two deposits instead of one. He should not say anything further, but would conclude by moving— to revise the Standing Order of last Session, requiring a deposit of 101. per cent. to be paid before Bills of the second class for the construction of railways are brought in, with a view to substitute a Standing Order that a de posit of 5/. per cent. before the Bill is brought in, shall be sufficient; the Bill containing a clause that the Act shall not come into operation till an additional sum of Sl. per cent. upon the capital shall have been paid. Mr. POULETT THOMSON thought there was an utter absence of any ground for calling on the House to rescind the Standing Order, which had been considered in the Committee which had sat on the subject two years ago, been long deliberated on, and been agreed to almost unanimously. No grounds whatever had been brought forward for rescinding this Standing Order. Nothing definitive had been brought forward as to any inconvenience resulting from this Standing Order, although many general allusions had been made, except what had crept out as to the Railroad proposed to be undertaken between Newcastle and Edinburgh. Of course his Hon. Friend was better acquainted than he could be with the circum -1 stances of his constituents ; but it certainly was not very complimentary to represent to the House that the inhabi tants of the important city of Edinburgh, the capital of Scotland, were so poor, so miserable, and so badly off, as to be utterly unable to pay up ten per cent. of the subscrip tion required, in order to secure the public the benefit of a railroad between their own city and the town of Newcastle. If Edinburgh was so poor it would have been better for his Learned Friend to have moved the rescinding of the Standing Order with respect to that city alone—such a motion would not have done so much mishief. The Standing Order was agreed to for the purpose of preventing speculations from being got up merely foi the benefit of the agents and engineers, as had been the case in too many. The 10 per cent. deposit was a security of the bona fides of the parties. He was strongly opposed to the motion; and as his Learned Friend had discharged his duty to his consti tuents, he hoped the House would discharge theirs to their 1 Committee, and discharge the motion. Mr. O'CONNELL said, the motion, if agreed to, would be of essential benefit to Ireland, and therefore it met with his warm approbation. It was no calumny to ssy, that Ireland was poor, she could not afford to lay out of the deposit of 10 per cent for so many years, but if it were reduced to 5 per cent., which was a :substantial security, many lines would be commenced which would be most beneficial to the whole country. He would cordially support the motion. Mr. H. HINDE would also support the motion of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. Ever since the rule bad been laid down, there had been a stop put to all applications for Railroad Bills the deposit was so high. He was much pleased that the motion had come before the House with the high sanction of the At torney-General, and he trusted it would be agreed to. Mr. WARBURTON begged to remind the House that the Standing Orders arose out of the proceedings of a Committee, of which he had the honour of being chairman, and that it was proved that on one railroad 33 persons re ceived ss. a piece for subscribing their name for 234,0001. of shares, and on the other 20 persons received 10s. a p iece for signing for shares to the amount of 33,0001., and that upon shares where there was a payment required of 2to 21 per cent. When such frauds took place after sucii a payment, a deposit of 5/. would be no security. He would decidedly oppose the motion of the Learned Gentleman. Mr. W. O. STANLEY was understood to support the motion. Mr. FR ESHF I E L D decidedly opposed the motion. The Standing Order had been very useful, and ought to be supported. Mr. R. STUART felt that this measure was one of great importance, not only to Scotland but to Ireland, and on that ground he should give it his support. His Hon. and Learned Friend did not propose to reduce the deposit to the old amount, but to fix it 50 per cent. higher than was paid under the old system, and also that in addition to that, befo r e a s t on e of the work could be laid, 5 per cent. additional must be paid up, so that before the land of any proprietor c o uld b e t a k en , the whole sum must be paid for which the House had stioul4ted, Lord G. SOMERSET objected to such a pro ceedin g being taken at thi s l ate period of the Session , wh en three fourthssaviotde that to the plan whic h the 7as now of th e M em b ers had left town. H e thought the present rul e h a d not produced any practical i nconven i e nce, and he should th ere f ore igp. MACAULAY in contemplation many agai nstproposition. _ Pe we n re s o d f . substance, integrity, an 4 the highest respectability plan. This was a fact which lib% e; the present Standing Order pr e is n p t os d eto contribute, and W. 195., was too low, 101. w th e execution of the as tootiT if tie old amount, therefore vote for the intermediate Ig p h rOp a o n sti h o e n t il l :9 6 1 11 Hon. and Learned Fria* Sir R. INGL IS said the whole question here was about one railroad between Edinburgh and Newcastle.—(No, no.) It was said that the alteration would benefit Ireland, but the Honourable and Learned Gentleman would not have brought the measure forward, except in his zeal for the interests of Scotland, and the city of Edinburgh in particular..—(A laugh.) It was said that the notices had already been given. If so, they would be legislating ex post facto.--( Hear, hear.) On general principles, as well as in reference to this particular case, he should oppose the proposition of the Attorney-General. Mr. E A STHOPE understood from what had been stated that the progress of the railroad was retarded by the deposit of 10 per cent., which could not be paid in consequence of thepoverty of Scotland. If that was true, how did it happen that the railroads in England derived so large a portion of their capital from Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aber deen, andother great towns in Scotland? The fact was that this railroad must, if forwarded at present, be forwarded by gamblers who had no ultimate interest in the concern. The Scotch people were very rich and very chary ; they did not embark their money without the probability •f a good return ; and if they could get other persons to take the first steps, although a railroad might not be worth 100 per cent. it might be worth 70. If the House sanctioned this proposition it would again throw railroads into the hands of gamblers. Individuals who engaged in these concerns, looked to the practical result. There was no want of capital, if there was a good prospect of income, and if not, it was not consonant to the character of the House to allow persons to engage in such matters. Mr. T HORNELY was cognizant of many frauds with respect to lists submitted to the Committees of the House ; but he had always doubted whether it was neces sary to inflict the penalty of 10 per cent. on parties coming to Parliament for Railway Bills.—(Hear.) Mr. BARNARD was convinced that if the present system was continued, many important Railways would be smothered, and he should support the proposition of the Attorney- General. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—As to the argu ment, that it was too late in the Session—this was the very time for revising the Standing Orders, that those likely to engage in such projects next Session might know the intention of Parliament, and not be subjected to regula tions made at the commencement of a Session, and which must necessarily have an ex post facto operation.—( Hear.) It could not be said that the orders of the Standing Orders Committee were as irrevocable as the laws of the Modes and Persians, and that they could not be altered on consideration.—(Hear, hear, hear.) How had the regulations of the other House of Parliament been im pugned, which fixed 5/. as the sum ? He did not dis pute that when it was fixed at 21. 10s. abuses existed. But the onus lay on those who wished it to be 10/. to prove that necessary. And for that he had heard no argu ment. Let it be recollected that he did not object to de posits of 10/. ; he only asked that modification which should enable parties to divide this sum into two parts-- one to be paid before the Bill was introduced, and another before it came into operation. He believed this would be ample security against abuses, and that no interest in the community need be under any apprehension on account of it. The House then divided and the numbers were— For the resolution ••• Against it 62 Majority against it l7 On our return to the gallery, we found Mr. FIELDEN presenting petitions against the New Poor-law—at least that was all we could collect—from the low, indeed almost inaudible tone in which the Hon. Mem ber as usual spoke, and the noise prevailing in the House. NOVEL MODE OF PREVENTING SHIP- THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, AUGUST 9, 1839. WRECKS. Mr. G. PALMER presented a petition from some indi vidual whose name we did not hear, stating, that he had dis• covered a new " Shipwreck Preventer"—( A laugh)— whereby ships might be enabled to sail better against the wind than with it—(Laughter)—and applicable to all vessels. He did not himself vouch for the truth of the petitioner's statement. The prayer of the petition was that the House would permit him to give evidence before a Committee, as to the accuracy of his representa tions—on condition that the House would provide him with means for obtaining a patent to prevent his invention being pirated..—(A laugh.) POOR-LAW. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the Governor and Directors of the Poor in St. Andrew's, Holborn, stating that in 1825 they had a Local Act, (which cost them 3,0001.) for the " better assess ing and collecting the rates within their district."' They complained of the system of plurality of voting, but their chief representation was that they had learned with indignation that a Bill was now pending before the House " for amending the laws relative to the assessment of rates for the relief of the poor," which ought, they said, to be read, a Bill for empowering the nominees of those who did not support the poor, to harass and oppress those who did ? They deprecated such despotic attempts to centralize all power in the creatures of the Government, as calculated justly to excite the hostility of popular feeling. They prayed the House to reject the Bill, and to preserve to the parishioners that controul over their local affairs, of which it was now endeavoured, most unconstitutionally, to deprive theta. DOG CARTS. Col. T. WOOD presented a petition, we believe, from Uxbridge, against the cruel practice of harnessing dogs to carts. EXCLUSIVE PRIVILEGES IN IRELAND. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Galway and King's County, against the Bank of Ireland Bill, complaining of the want of free banking in that country, by reason of the monopoly now existing, and representing the Bill as calculated to enrich the few at the expense of the many_ The Hon. and Learned Member also presented a petition from •Londonderry, praying that the Catholic places of worship might have timber duty free. Also a petition from Longford, complaining that at the last assizes the jurors in the criminal court were, with but one or two exceptions, Protestants, though the Catholic freeholders were fully as respectable. THE MEDICAL PROFESSION. Lord J. RUSSELL presented a petition from the Pro vincial Medical and Surgical Association, consisting of nearly 1,200 Members, expressing their opinion that the present state of medical education, and that the power of granting degrees or licenses to practice physic and sur gery were in a most unsatisfactory state, stating that there were not less than sixteen modes of acquiring the neces sary education, and of passing examinations—that from the Committee of 1834, they naturally expected some measure on the subject, and regretted that their expectation had not been realized, and representing that it was high time reform was effected whereby medical education might be rendered uniform, and that persons practising medi cine or surgery in the three kingdoms might be qualified according to well-known and uniform rules.—( Hear. ) Mr. WAKLE Y said he had been requested to support the prayer of the petition, which he did most cordially, and he was very glad it had been entrusted to the Noble Lord. Sir ROBERT INGLIS presented a petition from the clergy of the diocese of Durham against the Church Dis cipline Bill. Lord MORPETH presented a petition from the West Riding of Yorkshire against any attempt to exclude Roman Catholics from the benefit of any grant for national education. The Noble Lord also pre sented a petition from the President and Members of the Geological and Polytechnic Society of the West Riding of Yorkshire, praying that the scale of all Govern ment maps of countries containing minerals might be six inches to a mile. PROPERTY TAX. Mr. SC HOLEFIELD gave notice that he should early next Session move that a Property-tax should be substi tuted for those taxes that bore heavily on the industrious classes. TURNPIKE TRUSTS. Mr. MACKINNON gai,e notice that he should next Session renew his Bill for the consolidation of Turnpike Trusts, unless the Commissioners appointed by Govern ment made their report in the meantime. CANADA. Captain BOLDER() gave notice that he should next Session move for leave to bring in a Bill to establish a system of Military Colonization in Canada, which should form a body to act against internal and external enemies. Mr. FRE SHFIEL D gave notice that on the third reading of the Poor.law Continuance Bill, and on the third reading of the Bastardy Bill, he should move cer tain clauses. ECCLESIASTICAL PREFERMENTS BILL. On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the Lords amendments to the Ecclesiastical Preferments Bill were read and agreed to. PRISONS BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL observed that there were a great number ofamendments to this Bill, but he did not anticipate it would be necessary to offer any objection to them. He would therefore move that the Bill be printed as amended, and taken into consideration on Monday.—Agreed to. BANK OF IRELAND BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the second reading of the Bank of Ireland Bill, and pro posed Wednesday next for going into Committee. Mr. O'CONNELL was anxious to prevent any mis apprehension taking place. The Committee might not sit on Wednesday at all, because the understanding was that the principle of the Bill should be discussed on the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair. He, therefore, apprehended, if that discussion lasted any time, the House would not go into Committee on the Bill that evening. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not wish the House to go into Committee at a late hour, if the debate turned out to be protracted. The Bill was then read a second time. POOR-LAW COMMISSION CONTINUANCE BILL. On Lord JOHN RUSSELL moving that the Order of the Day be read for receiving the Report on this Bill, Mr. D ARBY rose in pursuance of the notice he had t g r i o v d e u n ee y d es i t u e t r o da t y h , e matt ß o ill: o_ve ,, t T h hat the it following l bela cu wlafuslefobre the e - Guardians of any parish or union, if they shall think fit, to give relief in any parish or union to any widow having a family, or to any able-bodied person who shall have been married before the passing of the 4th and sth Will. 4, c. 76, and who shall be unable by his industry to maintain his children, the issue of such mar riage, notwithstanding any provision contained in this Act, or in the said recited Act, or any order or orders issued by by virtue of this Act, or of Ow said recited Act, to the contrary : Provided always that no part of such relief to such able-bodied labourer shall be in money." And he trusted the House would pardon him for a few moments, while he called their attention to the circum stances under which this clause was now proposed. A clause that the Guardian should have power to give relief in certain cases was carried by a considerable majority. He had then intended to introduce the clause which he now proposed, but the Noble Lord stated that if that pl awe was carried he would probably aban don his Bili; ypt he admitted that as the instruction had been carried by a majority, hp did think some alteration should be made in the Bill. On the Noble Lord proposing his elac.sc, the Hon. Member for Buckingham moved an amendment to it, thinking it was too large, which amend- ment was carried out ; but the Hon. Member for Buckingham ( Sir T. Freemantle), joined with the Noble Lord, and threw out the clause altogether. There was great confusion in the House at the time ; and it was not until some Hon. Members had left the House that he was aware he had been made a teller with the Hon. Member for Buckingham, otherwise he should have voted against him. However, he had this admission, that with reap •ct to labourers married before the passing of the Poor-law Amendment Act, great hardship existed, and the the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke, •admitted that if the Poor-law Bill was intended to be carried out, ac cording to those orders which prevented any relief except by taking the whole family into the workhouse, it was impossible it could be so carried out. The Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, had stated that the whole question had better remain over, and be con sidered at a future time, but stated that with regard to labourers married before the passing of the Act, one objection to giving them relief in the manner proposed was, that so much time had elapsed since. But that was the very reason which urged him ( Mr. Darby) to bring forward the subject at this time, because that argument would apply with double force if the Bill were to continue for two years more without any alteration.—( Hear, hear.) On this subject he quoted the evidence of a gentleman whose authority the Noble Lord would be inclined to admit, h re e e mean now Kay, he stated that as workhouse conducted there existed considerable schoolswt Dr. difficulty in imparting to the children the elements of sound secular, or religious knowledge, which might, however, be overcome by a different system of management; therefore he was right in proposing the clause as he proposed it at present. Dr. Kay said in his evidence that imprudent marriages had decreased in those districts in which this law had been brought into operation, and the Noble Lord objected to his clause that in his opinion it would be likely to lead to a return to the old system. He did not think the Noble Lord had any right to make such an objection to his clause, because it would not encourage imprudent marriages, but only went to remove that which the Noble Lord himself had admitted to be a hardship. This clause wou!cl render it necessary that inquiries should be instituted as to the time when the parties were married ; this would necessarily lead to other inquiries, so that no relief would be adminis tered without a previous inquiry into the circumstances of the family. Having had the admission of the Noble Lord that the law as it now stood in this respect inflicted a hard ship, and having heard the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Pembroke admit that if this part of the law had been fully acted on in his part of the coun try, it would have been impossible to put the law in force, he was at a loss to understand the grounds upon which his clause was opposed. The principle of the Act was to prevent persons entering into imprudent marriages, and there was nothing in the clause which he proposed to contravene that principle. If this clause should be negatived he supposed the Noble and Learned Lord would introduce his own clause, as he had admitted that after the decision the House had come to on this subject something ought to be done. If the clause should be carried, the Noble Lord might perhaps propose to put off the Bill to another Session. To this be should not object ; but he trusted that it would be carried. He bad never made any use of this question for the purposes of agitation ; on the contrary, he had always warned the working classes against such proceedings; but he thought this clause was likely to do good, by showing that the House was willing to attend to what the Noble Lord himself had admitted to be a hardship. He would con clude by moving the clause of which he had given notice. Mr. BURROUG HE S seconded the motion. Captain HAMILTON (as we understood) said he felt bound to vote for the clause moved by the Hon. Member for East Sussex. He was Chairman of one of the very largest Unions in the country—there were eighteen ex officio guardians, and thirty-eight elected ones—and a large majority of the Board were in favour of a measure of that kind. The clause did not make it imperative upon the guardians to grant relief, it merely gave them a power to do so, and to do that directly, which nine in ten of the Boards of Guardians throughout the country bad done during the last two winters indirectly.—( Hear, hear.) He was one who had always given great credit to the Government fir the introduction of the Poor-law Amendment Bill; it was introduced without the slightest re gard to party feelings ; yet still there were many amendments necessary, and the clause now proposed was one of them. Thank God they had now got rid of the bastardy clauses. They were unfair in the highest degree for they made the ratepayer pay in his purse, and the fair sex in their per sons.—( A laugh.) He understood, however, the Bas tardy Bill would be reported that night, and there would be an end to that unfair part of the Bill, and he was glad of it, and he trusted not only that the present clause would be agreed to but others also. Lord JOHN RUSSELL entertained all the objections to this clause which he had formerly urged. It was totally at variance with the intentions of the Act. One strong reason against it was that this Bill was not an alteration, but a continuance of the Act ; another strong objection to it was that it might lay down rules with regard to the relief of the Poor which had not been sanctioned by the Legis lature. It might be supposed by those who were favour able to out-door relief that if this clause should pass, the Legislature would for the first time be giving a sanc tion to that principle, for the effect of the clause would be, that if there were a number of labourers to whom it was not convenient to give suffi cient wages, they might give 103. in wages and 4s. out of the rates. This was a mischievous principle which he considered to be favoured by this proposal.-4 Hear, hear.) The proposition before the House took an exception with regard to persona married before the enactment of the Poor law Amendment Act, and the law itself would be exposed to peril by the admission of such a principle generally.-- ( Hear, hear.) Although labourers married before the passing of the Act, and who had been accustomed to relief, might have suffered considerable hardship, yet the House must consider the situation in which they would be placed, as compared with others in different Unions throughout the country. There would be one labourer having part of his wages supplied by the pa rish, and another having no such payment, it would strike the labourers there would be an advantage given to one man over the other, and it would strike the employers that if they employed one man they could have his labour for 10s. the other 4s. being paid by the parish, whilst if they employed another labourer they would be obliged to pay him the whole of his earnings as wages, and it would then be said why should not labourers married since 1834 be put on the same footing as others ? This was the danger which would arise from the adoption of the clause. Another question was as to the exercise of power by the Commissioners. There was an order in respect to widows. Widows with more than one child (so we understood the Noble Lord, who was rather indistinct upon this point), and in all cases widows within six months of their widow hood, might have relief, therefore as to them no alteration was necessary. As to able•bodied labourers he found that they had no objection in cases where it was represented to them by the guardians that it was their wish to give relief to able bodied labourers with large families, and to admit one or two children into the workhouse. The Com missioners had no objection to relax their rule so far, and he thought it was of great importance that the relaxation should rather come from the Commissioners than be adopted as a principle of law, for otherwise the authority of the Commissioners would be greatly weakened. As next year the whole matter would have to be discussed, it would be doubly unadvisable to take this latter course. Every thing had been done by the Commissioners, but to this clause he thought there would be great objection. Mr. DA RBY said that he had known an instanee where a child had been admitted into the workhouse, the As sistant Commissioner had ordered him to be taken out. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said he had been at first inclined to support the motion, and the concluding observations of the Noble Lord rendered him more eager to do so, for he frankly declared that he had no confidence in the Commissioners--( Hear, bear, hear)—and that opinion had been conscientiously formed after mature consideration. Ho had watched the proceeedings of the Commissioners as they had come under his notice, and he had seen much in their ad ministration of their powers, as to out-door relief, of which he could not approve. Under these circumstances, he wished the Legislature to step in, more especially for the relief of those individuals who had in volved themselves, perhaps unfortunately, in the embarrassments of marriage under the old system. He saw nothing in the order to which the Noble Lord had alluded which could at all satisfy him as to the propriety of leaving the matter in the hands of the Commissioners. They had already altered the rules in different Unions, and what was to prevent them from altering the orders which had been laid on the table of the House? Indeed he had no reason to suppose those orders were now applicable to every Union. He believed there were several Unions to which the proposed relaxation did not apply, and he would ask upon what principle a relaxation was to be admitted in one district and denied in another? And when the Noble Lord talked of this clause being unequal in its opera tion, and making parties satisfied, he would ask the Noble Lord whether the dissatisfaction would not be equal when in one parish the rule was relaxed, and in another, not far distant, strictly enforced?-( Hear, hear.) What confidence would the poor have that their cases were impartially considered? What reliance would they place in the discretionary legislation of the Commissioners? What was it his Hon. Friend proposed ? —that relief should be given to able - bodied labourers married bef ore th e p a ssing of the new Poor-law Act. He ( Lord G. Somerset) at once avowed that he did not think this went far enough ; he would be willing to push it fur ther. He saw no argument why the relief extended to parties married before the Act, should not be extended to parties married after the Act. But if he could not get relief to all he wished he must be content to give relief to all he could, and if this were carried it would not pre clude gentlemen who thought with him from extending the mitigation her ea ft er s till farther, though be ho p ed he should not see such a s er i es o f—manceuvres he was g oin g to call them —but he would only say, divisions, which had taken place the other night, when parties voted backwards and forwards in the most unaccountable manner.—( Hear, hear.) As to any heart-burnings or jealousies which would be created by the operation of this clause, let it be recollected that by the Noble Lord's own account these would be settled by a general measure of amendment next Session. It was evident that the Committee which sat last year on this subject, after duly considering the case of widows, were anxious that they should receive relief in a most liberal manner.—( Hear, hear.) The reason why he had given this notice was that he was afraid the opinion of the Noble Lord would be sufficient to pro cure the rejection of the proposition of his Hon. Friend, but it did not follow that therefore his proposition should be rejected ; and in order that it might not be so, he had taken it as near as possible in the Noble Lord's own words, and ho therefore hoped that even if the Noble Lord should succeed in securing the rejection of the proposition of his I Hon Friend, et he would extend his protection to his proposition. He should certainly be glad to see the power of the Commissioners in some respects lessened, and more authority given tq the Hoards of guardians, who had in many instances eiipseased their anxiety tq have power to relax the stringency of the law. Lord FL lOT although he could not agree in the censure which hPil been cast upon the Board of Consmig. sioners who, in his opinion, had performed their duties with the greatest ability, yet was desirous that greater powers should be entrusted to the Boards of Guardians. He was inclined to pay great deference to the opinions of the Honourable Members for East Sussex, for Norfolk, and for Ayl es b u ry, w h o had all paid the greatest attention to the subject of the Poor-law, but he could not alto gether agree with his Hon. Friend on this subject. It appeared to him this clause was likely to produce a greater degree o fli.ssatisfaction than it would remedy, and, therefore, he should opp ise it. Sir ROBERT PRICE said the great evil of the old system was out. door relief ; and under that system more frauds had been committed, and the industrious classes had been defrauded more of their just rights than under any other system in existence. The Hon. Member for East Sussex was endeavouring by a side wind to break down the present system, which he would say was of more im portance to the landed interests than any other system that had been established during the time he had been in Par liament. He would be ashamed of himself if he supported the new Poor-law merely because the landed interest were benefited, but he believed it had done good to the poor themselves, and had tended to raise their character ; and he trusted the House would adhere to the principles on which the New Poor-law Act bad been established. If Hon. Members endeavoured, by a side wind, to break down one principle one day, and on another day to break down another principle, the day would not be far distant when those who were so eager to give their support to those attempts would deeply lament the course they had pursued. He would strongly urge the House not to con sent to the clause proposed by the Hon. Member for Sussex. He hoped the case of the widows would receive every consideration during the next Session of Parliament, but do not let the House open all the evils of the out-door system in a Bill introduced merely for the purpose of re newing or extending the Poor-law Commissioners for another year. Mr. BURR OUG HE S explained. He did not advocate a return to the old system ; he complained of the law be cause it was an ex postfacto one. Mr. WAKLE Y said there might be much logic, but there certainly was very little humanity in the speech which the Hon. Baronet the Member for Bedfordshire had just favoured the House.—(Cries of " Oh, ob," and" Order.") That must he the opinion of the House.—(Cries of " No, no.") The Hon. Baronet said let the case of the widows stand over for another year ; let them starve in the mean time, but take their case into consideration next year. He ( Mr. W.) thought it would be far more humane to take that subject into consideration immediately, and give those a home who had no shelter—who had no raiment, clothing— who were in a state of starvation, food. Why, fifty years ago it would not have been credited that the proud and boasting aristocracy of England—that the landed gentry of England could be engaged in such a discussion as then engaged the House, which was one of a character to lower that House in the eyes of the people, to deprive that assembly of any esteem on the part of the people of this coun • try. The Hon. Gentleman had stated that the landed interest had derived great benefit from the Bill; he thought they had, and the public thought so too, and the poor knew it. —( Hear, hear.) But was that a reason for the Bill being continued to the detriment of the poor?—( Hear, hear.) Did the gentry of England wish to put their feet upon the necks of the poor, saying that their position was comfortable enough, and that they cared not for them? Was that the decree they wished to send forth to the Eng glish nation? He trusted that the House would make some provision for the necessitous. The Hon. Member for Hereford trusted that the House would not break down the great principles of the Poor-law Amendment Act. He had often heard that statement, but he had never heard • defined what the great principles of that Bill were. Was it that all relief should be withheld under all circumstances • from the able-bodied labourer? LordJOHN RUSSELL—No. Mr. WA KL E Y—The Noble Lord says, certainly not. If such were the intention, all he could say was, it had not been acted upon by the Commissioners, because re lief had not only been given in the form of clothing, but money, to the able-bodied labourer. He was sure it would not be admitted that the great principle of the Bill was that of starving the poor. In the present case, what was it they were discussing ? The Hon. Mem ber for Sussex was for supporting the hole and corner clause. An Hon. Member on the other side of the House had said that the clause did not go far enough : upon that Hon. Member's suggestion the clause was altered, and he was the first to vote against it in its improved form ; and he ( Mr. Wakley) had heard it stated that that Hon. Member had said that he had proposed its alteration in order to get it thrown out. What happened? Why, after the House had amended the clause, after he and some • others had been disappointed in the result, he moved that the Chairman should report progress ; and for doing so he was represented in the Times newspaper as having moved to report progress in order to get rid of the ques tion, thus imputing to him that he had caused a clause to be lost after it had been carried.—( Hear.) In point of fact, as everybody knew, the clause was lost, and it was in consequence of the annoyance he felt, and in the hope that he should have an opportunity of bringing the subject forward, that he moved that the Chairman should report progress. What did he find in the Times the next day ? Hon. Members knew that upon divisions the names of the ayes and the noes were taken down, but in the Times the noes were set down as the ayes, and the ayes as the noes, making it appear that he had voted just contrary to the manner in which he did. If that was done intentionally it was most unfair, but if it was done unintentionally, he was sure that he had only to mention it to have it set right. He thought the poor of the country had a right to relief without being compelled to go into a gaol, which he considered the Union workhouses to be. If the Noble Lord intended to give the Commissioners a perpetuity in their office—if he did not intend any relaxation should take place, then he was acting rightly ; but if he intended that any relaxation should take place, he thought he was bound to accede to the relaxation that was proposed. Nothing could be more preposterous than to make distinc tions between a man married on the 13th of August, 1833, and the 15th August, in the same year. —( Hear, hear.) Destitution in all cases should be the test.—( Hear, hear.) No matter when they were married, relief ought to be administered, and if they adopted any other rule they would fall into the most grievous errors.—( Hear, hear.) He was convinced that it would be quite safe to entrust the control in this respect to the Guardians who were elected by the ratepayers, who had the means of ascertaining whether destitution was brought on by improvidence or not. He shuuld be glad to hear from the Noble Lord whether it was his intention to relax the Bill with reference to out-door relief. If the Noble Lord would at once express his deter mination the country would know what course to take. Lord HO WICK said it was obvious that very few of those who supported the motion did so on the ground that the proposal itself was a good one. It was supported by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and by the Noble Lord the Member for Monmouthshire, as a part of that which they required, and as a concession to that deluded feeling which now existed on this subject. The question was whether they were to recur to the old practice of giving relief in aid of wages.—( Cries of " No, no," and " Hear, hear.") That was really and substantially the principle on which they were called on to decide. He ( Lord Howick) certainly had voted with the Honourable Member for Finsbury, thinking that the change, if made at all, ought to be universal, but he had afterwards, with very great satisfaction, voted for rejecting the clause altogether. The Hon. Member for Finsbury had taxed his Hon. Friend behind him with inhumanity. Mr. WA KLE Y—No, I did net. I spoke of his speech. I said it was not remarkable for humanity. Lord H 0 WICK said it was utterly a mistake to suppose that true humanity consisted in looking at sufferings among particular classes. The true huma nity in legislation consisted in taking that course which on the whole, and in the long run, would pro duce the least suffering, and the greatest benefit to the country at large.—( Hear, hear.) It was mistaken hu manity which endeavoured to aid the wages of labourers by the poor rates—it was a principle which operated most ruinously to the interests of the labouring classes.—( Hear, hear.) And he must say the House had been painfully affected by the manner in which the Hon. Member for Finsbury had thought fit to tax with inhumanity, and the most sordid and disgusting motives in their conduct on this subject, the whole gentry of England.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had said that they would not allow the Boards of Guardians even to give their own money in such eases—but the fact was, that the Boards of Guardians did not give only their own money—( Hear, hear)—they gave the money not only of the better farmers and gentry, but of the industrious classes in the lower ranks of life—many of them, only by their virtuous struggles, enabled to keep their own heads above distress—( Hear, hear)—and ex posed to great privations and difficulties.—( Hear, hear.) Tim gentry of England had never shown themselves 'niggardly of what was their own money really. It had always been found throughout the country that they were ready to come forward with their own private means,—to relieve distress, which by legislation could not be so beneficially relieved as by the benevolence of indi viduals.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had in sinuated that the support which this measure had received from the Board of Guardians was owing to selfish motives, and to relieve themselves from the rates. But he ( Lord Howick) would ask any gentlemen who had really looked to the operation of the measure, and was acquainted with the demoralized and unhappy condition of the peasantry of this country, previously to the year 1834, whether he did not, in his conscience, believe that the real ground on which that Act was passed, was not the pecuniary benefit of the rate-payers, but the advantage of those for whom the rates were levied, and the destruction of that cruel oppression under which the poorer classes laboured, by the vicious system formerly in operation?—( Hear, hear.) These objects, and not the pecuniary saving, were the main reasons for adhering to the principle of the Att. The Honourable Member for Finsbury had said—." What was the principle of the Act ? was it that no re li e f s h ou ld b e g i ven t o able bodied poor ?" Undoubtedly not, the real principle, the only principle of the Poor-law Amendment Act was, to give relief in cases of destitution, bnt to confine relief exclusively to those cases.—( Hear, hear,) In justice to the rate payers and to the recipients of the rates they should take care, that the money should in no cases be re, ceived except by the really destitute, and his objection to this clause was, that it would necessarily lead to the evasion of this principle.—( Hear, hear, hear). Let them look at the Reports of the Commissioners and Assistant Commis. sioners previous to the passing of the New Poor-law Act, and they would find it would be utterly impossible to apply the principle of the Honourable Member without leading to abuse. The principle of the Honourable Member was, that although a man might be strong and healthy, and in full employment, yet he was entitled to relief in addition to his wages ; but experience had shown that it would be utterly impossible to institute such a scrutiny as to prevent the greatest abuses, and that if adopted it would take from the labourer one great mo ti ve t o i n d ustry an d ec onomy, by creating a belief that there was no practical difference in the results between the frugal and industrious labourer and one of an opposite character. —( Hear, hear.) Therefore the greatest pains tlad been taken to prevent relief being given in aid of wages. When a man was really destitute he was taken altogether upon the resoerces of the Union and provided with the necessaries of life, but not in such a manner us to act as an inducement to him to throw himself upon them. Thi; principle had by this Bill been applied to the south of England with the greatest success; it was a wise principle, which to any great extent had never been departed from in the north of England.—( [tear, hear. ) With regard to the question of widows he would remind the House that the Hon. Member for Finsbury, notwith standing his hostility to the Poor-law Amendment Act, had been obliged to admit, as was stated by the Committee last year, that there was not a case of harsh treatment of widows either on the part of the Commissioners or of the Guardians. What necessity could there be, then, for legislation? The Noble Lord, the Member for Mon mouthshire, had relied upon the recommendation of the Committee of last year, but that Committee had not re. commended any change in the law ; on the contrary, they had recommended that the principle of the Poor-law should be upheld. It hail been asked what was the inten tion of his Noble Friend with regard to the relaxation of the law. It was impossible to answer such a question. What he had stated was, that be meant next year to pro pose a measure correcting any defects which might exist in the working of the Poor-law Act.—( Hear, hear, hear.) This matter would be subjected to the fullest inquiry on the part of the House, and it would be for Parliament then to determine what relaxation or alterations might be necessary. He hoped the /louse would not permit the Hon. Gentleman to introduce the small edge of the wedge in this way, and repeal the Poor-law Amendment Act by a side wind.—(Cheers.) Me. E STCO URT did not think the clause proposed so contrary to the principle of the law, as to be justly charged with being an attempt to repeal the law by a side-wind. It was merely applying the principle which had been adopted in case 3 of bastardy to marriages. He would not say whether he was favourable to the Bill or not; but if he were ever so unfavourable to it, if he thought this clause was intended to get rid of it by a side wind, he would vote against it ; but not considering it was so intended, or would have that effect, he should support it. Mr. T. ATT WOOD thought the Noble Lord, the Se cretary for War, was labouring under a pauper-phobia. He did not believe in the evils of the old law; he did not believe that relief was ever excessive, because overseers themselves were ratepayers. He denied that there had been any improvement in consequence of the Poor-law Act ; the improvement was owing to the railroads, which had given employment to 400,000 labourers. Ho had said, on a former occasion, that the intention of the landlords in introducing this Bill, was to grind down wages to the Irish level, in order that they might get their paper rents in standard gold.—( A laugh.) He did not think such had been their intention, but such would have been the effect of this law, had it not been for the railroads. The Noble Lord was hostile to the mingling wages with rates. He was not. He thought it was right, and just, and political, that men with large families should have relief out of the rates. He thought that the most important right a man possessed was a right to an honest living for honest labour ; this was a right, in his opinion, more sacred than any other right,and one to which all other rights should give way. Should this clause be carried, he would move as an amendment, to leave out all parts relating to marriage, and all parts re lating to relief being given in kind rather than money, so as to leave every thing to the discretion of the guar dians. Mr BR AMSTON would oppose the clause. He did not agree with the Hon. Member who had spoken last, as he thought the New Poor-law had improved the condi tion of the labourer, by raising him in the scale of inde pendence. He was ready to take his share of the blame thrown by the Hon. Member for Finsbury on himself and his friends. He should oppose the proposition, being on the whole in favour of the Biil.—(Loud cries of " Ques tion," and " Divide.") Mr. FIE LD EN, amidst cries of " Spoke," made a statement of which but a few words reached the gallery. The Noble Lord talked of destitution as the test for re lief, but the real test was the workhouse, and that under the most degrading circumstances. He was sorry to see the Gentlemen in that House were determined to carry out this Bill, but he was sure they never could. He thought it was unjust in the highest degree to deprive the guardians who raised the money of the power of distri buting it.—.(Divide, divide.) The Howe then divided ; there were— For the clause 42 Against it . Majo ity against the clause 35 Lord G. SOMERSET moved the following clause:— " And be it further enacted, that in the case of any widow, who shall be unable to maintain her child or children, being the issue of her marriage, it shall be lawful for the Guardians of the union or parish to which such widow is chargeable, if they shall think fit, to give relief in kind to such widow out of the workhouse, or to give relief to such widow by admitting one or more of such children into the workhouse of such union or parish, without requiring such widow to receive relief in such workhouse." Mr. DARBY seconded it. Lord J. RUSSELL would oppose it, as he thought i did not come fairly within the scope of the Bill. Mr. HINDLE Y supported it. The House divided on the motion; there were:— Ayes . 43 Noes _ _ _ Majority against the clause Mr. DUNCOMBE hoped the House would at least resolve that no females who had arrived at the age of 65 should be made to work in a workhouse. In the Holborn union workhouse there were, not long since, found one female of 86, another of 75, and several above 65 years old, picking wool during eleven hours a day, and obliged to drink water. He moved a clause to that effect. Mr. WA KLE Y seconded the motion, but it was post poned, after a few observations. The Bill was ordered to be engrossed, and read a third time to-morrow (this day). BASTARDY BILL The Report of the Committee on this Bill was brought up. Lord G. SOMERSET moved a clause to the effect that the moment a woman became chargeable to a parish in consequence of becoming pregnant of a bastard child, the guardians have power to insist upon the putative father giving security for the expence the parish was put to. At the same time he was most anxious that all persons so charged should have an appeal from the Justices at Petty Sessions to the Quarter Sessions,:where they have the assist. ance of persons learned in the law, who are more expert at exposing a false charge than those persons who attend at the Petty Sessions. Sir CHARLES GREY supported the latter proposi tion, as did also Mr. DARBY. Lord J. RUSSELL did not think it would be ad viseable to adopt the first proposition as it would tend to a return to the grievances of the old system. With respect to the second suggestion—no doubt cases might arise where false charges of such a sort would be very injurious to persons ; if it was the opinion of the House that an appeal should be given, he would introduce a clause on the third reading—at the same time he could not conceal from him. self that the working of it might not be beneficial, as it might load to much scandal. Mr. PR YM E was glad to hear the Noble Lord con sent to that modification of the Bill as the appeal was ab. solutely necessary in many cases, otherwise parties might irretrievably lose their character, and by so doing their chances of making provision for their families. Several verbal amendments were agreed to—the Bill was ordered to be engrossed and read a third time to morrow COUNTY AND DISTRICT CONSTABLES BILL, On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the above Bi was recommitted. On clause 1 beinc , proposed, Lord J. RUSSELL said he intended to introduce a proviso for the appointment of a chief constable to each district when counties were divided, for the purpose of re turning Members of Parliament. __ . Mr. — HUM E hoped the counties would not be saddled with the expence to be caused byltheißill at one Meeting; he hoped the proceedings of one Meeting would neces sarily require the confirmation of another. Mr. BR AMSTON thought there was great weight in what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, for the expence under the Bill would quite equal the present County Rate. A long and desultory discussion then took place, as to the propriety of ample notice being given of the meetings of the Magistrates, Mr. AdLIONBY suggested that the following words be introduced into the clause :—" Due notice having been given by advertisement in some one or more newspapers published, or usually circulated, in such county, at least three weeks previous to the holding of such Quarter Ses sions, or adjournments thereof, or such special meeting." As it was a matter of difficulty to draw up amendments of this kind on the spur of the moment, he would leave the wording of it to the Noble Lord. Mr. 'WAKLEY would like very much to see the power over these constables in the hands of the Board of Guar dians who were elected by the rate-payers. Lord J RUSSELL said, if that w as done it would be immediately said the constables ware intended for the mere purpose of forcing the law. Mr. WAKLEY said the Noble Lord had hit the right nail upon the head. He had caught the idea; for be frankly confessed he thought they were raised for no other purpose than to impose that law in perpetuity upon the country. Mr. E WART observed that Anse constables were to be permanently appointed in the counties. Now that would be inconsistent with the enactment he proposed to insert in the Bill, that the law should only last for two years. He would, therefore, move tho omission of the word "permanent." Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the word being struck out. The motion was then agreed to. The clause, after several verbal amendments had been made, was agreed to. Mr. T. ATTWOOD proposed to add to the clause the fol lowing proviso :—" That previous to the levying of any rate for the purposes of the Aot, or the application of any kind of money for these purposes, the consent of a majority of the rate payers shall be obtained in each county, or division of each county, at a general meeting of the rate-payers, to be specially called by such Justices, at not lass than ten days notice, for the purpose of taking the subject into consideration." After a few remaks from Mr. Hu mi . . and Mr. WAtttarllTON, the Gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place, and the motion was negatived without a division. On clause 2 being proposed, Mr. AGLIONBY suggested that the rules for the regula tion of the Police should be laid on the table of the House, within a certain number of days after they were made. Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no objection to the course, and the clause was then agreed to. Clauses 3 and 4 were agreed to. On clause 5, which gives the power of appointment to the Chief Constable, subject to the approval of two or mole Justices, Sir H. VERNEY moved the omission o f t h e words " or more," on which the House divided. The numbers were— For the clause ................. 56 For the amendment... ................ . 23 11[ grit , ... .............................. 11. —33 Mr. T i DUNCOMBE moved, as a proviso, that the con stables to be employed under the Bill should not vote for any Member of Parliament, or interfere at any election. Whether it was proper or not he did not mean to argue, but the City and Metropolitan Police officers dared not vote under a penalty of IOOL , and if it was proper for them so also would it be for this body. Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the proviso, as the principle had been often acted upon. Mr, KEMBLE must divide the House if the proviso were EVEN ING EDITION. made so general as to prevent a constable from voting in an county other than the one in which he acts. . Mr. WARBURTON said the proviso must at all events ex tend to contiguous counties, for Magistrates generally held the Commission in both counties. Mr. KEMBLE would divide the House if any one supported him. He was astonished to find gentlemen who were always crying out for an extension of the Suffrage doing all in their power upon every occasion to deprive persons of it, Mr. T. DUNCOMBE. Why did not the Hon. Member oppose the principle in the City Police Bill. Suppose aco s table in York were a Freeholder in Northumberland, why should he be allowed to leave his duty at a time when it was important he should be present. Lord J. RUSSELL would introduce a clause at another stage, in conformity with that contained in the Metropolitae Police Act. The proviso was withdraws, and the clause, as amended, was ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clvase 6 was agreed to without amendment. Clsuses 7,8, and 9 were agreed to. On clause 10 being proposed, Mr. ESTCOUR'I' thought some part of the expense of this force should be borne by the public. It would fall heavy upon Ilse occupier of land. Mr. HUME thought the House had been very remiss already iu parting with the public money to parties over whom they had no control, and he trusted the bad precedent would not b e followed in this case. The counties were to receive the belle fit of the force, and ought to pay for it. Sir H. VERNEY said the measure was for the benefit of the whole country, and the country ought to bear some 01 the expense. The plunderers were not attached to the loca lity—they were generally town-bred, and were driven into the country by the gr..atly improved police there. Mr. WARBURTON said in all boroughs the borough - r ates were burdened with the whole expence of their police. WI then have one rule for the borou g h s an d ano ther for counties Why should he proprietors be reliev e d a t th e public expelle e? Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not think it would be fair to take any money for the maintenance of these police from the Coasolidate 1 Fund, to which boroughs contributed largely, and at the same time maintained the whole of their police. The clause was agreed to. Clauses 11, 12, and 13, were agreed to. On clause 14 being proposed, Mr. WILLIAMS objected to Town Councils having power ( to transfer their police over to the county. The managemen t ° the police was virtually given to the rate-payers, and he cOO ten,led the Town Councils had no right to such a power. Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the words being struck out. The clause, as amended, was ordered to stand part of t he Bill. Clause 15 was agreed to. On dance 16, n'll Mr. HUME hoped that no perso n appointed under the wou'd be allowed . to receive f e e s . —(H ear , h ear .) A ele— salary ought to be fixed. The clause was agreed to. Clause 17 was also agreed to. 3lr. EWART moved, that the Bill remain in force till the Ist of August, 1841, and no longer. Several Hon. Meguh, eri e • who took an interest in the question were now absent, an thought a subject of such imp or t ance oug ht not t o be dee i v bet up.,n permanently. He a l s o wou ld urge upon th e House t ' g e the country had had no ti me t o cons id er t h e Bill, i n conseclee— of its having been brought in at so late a period of the Ses slee ; Mr. WARBURTON said, th a t b y this measure the co unt taxation would be doubled, and suc h a power oug ht n ot err et ' ;:, nently to be given, without putti ng it' i n the power of rani ment again to consider the matt er . H e would, therefore, support the motion of the Hon. Member for Wigan. • bt Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had st a t e d th e other n'L the reason which had induced him not to make this a teeir t . rary Bill. One reason was that they could not have the b i : persons, if the power was only to last two years, whe e .,l to i might be liable to be dismissel, and he could not nowag" .- the proposition of the Hon. Member. Mr. T. ATT WOOD said the Noble Lord appeared to be t , very anxious to preserve the peace, but his real object w_eLi establish despotism—(Laughter)—to establish the inf' French system of centralization.—(Loud laughter.) ber Mr. D'ISRAELI supported the motion of th e Hon- l‘Ac el t iv for Wigan. During the last twenty y ears , cr i m e had gre e e ie decreased, and that was a strong argument in favour of the ose system. The present system of revolutionizing the police a r . ,, principally from the testimony of a L on d on Ald erman , who Pb cured the assistance of two of the L on d on po li ce t o prevens re t turnip-tops from being stolen. Th ere was l ess cr i me in the °ld, districts of this country than in an y o th er countr y o f the vr er .l The two great offences were poa c hi ng an d wood -cutting: the gamekeepers were in this r es p ec t a sufficient rural po';'t for seldom did offenders of this d escr ipti on escape . The gr , call for the police arose in the manufacturing districts, be i t cer inquiry into the causes of the disturb ances oug ht to take Poe which could not be done at this late period of the Session. di be trusted that the Bill would be abandoned, as n othing o' ll gained by it. d ed. Lord WORSLEY said that instead of c r i me having decrettee within the last 20 years, he was sorry to say that it had incref ro In the county in which he r e s id e d th ere was a gre at iiiie e nce s tion to prosecute, f rom a f ear o f t h e coniequeo," w er e which might ensue, and the re f ore many offences whic h Bill committed were not brought forward. If this,, vioce was only to exist for two year s , th e M ag i s t ra tes would fi csit a strong disinclination to bring it i n to f orce and nothing a" effective constabulary force would be established. Mr. JONES opposed the clause. Mr. EWART replied, after which the House divided , W WI there appeared— For the clause Against it 77 --56 Majority against the clause The House then resumed, an d th e R eport was ordered received to-morrow. POO-RATES . The Order of the Day having be been readBILL f or receiving the Report of the Committee on this Bill, ch Mr. HAWF.S said this Bill gave the Guardians too nt power over the Overseers. He thought there ought to b e summons in the first instanc e , and that the parties ought t 0 allowed to appeal to the Quarter Sessions. Lord JOHN RUSSELL agreed th a t th ere oug ht to he m l , summons, but could not consent to grant i ng t h e appeals "- cause it would be productive of great delay. Mr. HAWES thought if there was a hearing before U' trates there could be no objection to a f urt h er h earing bee'l the Court of Quarter Session, where th e case cou ld he too "' better argued and decided. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said if this amendment should be introduced the clause would be wholly inoperat7l If there was an appeal to the Quarter Sessions, why sho o there not be one to the Court o f Q ueen ' s B enc h , an d t henc e the House of Lords; and in the meantime the poor migh t left to starve. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—The Attorney- General said eth poor would starve if the appeal were granted, but. that d id „ot appear. The disputes in the parish of Lambeth was the °;tb pretence for this Bill. Now the H on . M em b e r for Law l) said the Overseers had never refused money sufficient for kl e e. l) : ing the poor, but they disputed several sums for surveYet_ Aar y made without their knowledge an d con s en t, and for the, 3701. f e for a Clerk, who was dismi s s e d, and n e v er did a day 5 b He hoped the House would not at th a t p er i o d agree to V . ` no t Bill, especially as the whole question must be discussed fat Session. He wo u ld move th a t th e R epor t b e brought P day The SPEAKER said the H on . M em b er c ould ne t make t the hat motion. DUNCOE n moved a roviso that fo r tae should not operate in MB any parish having a Local Act ° government of its Poor, • etb Lord J. RUSSELL said there might be difficulties to way, it had better p be ostponed. tbe i Mr. DARBY had been informed by the Noble Lor d ' e d by the Bill was not intended to operate in parishes gover n Aid Local Acts, surely then, there could be no difficulty in to that clB B. r ea. Sir HALL said, it was distinctly un d er stood tha t it °, not to apply to such arishes. Mr. HUNIE said, p had that not been distinctly unaf; t tbe the table wo u ld h ave b een covere d w i t h pet iti o ns ails n Bill. Faith ought to be kept with the public. vos not Captain PECHELL s a id, h e un d ers t oo d the Bill 0 0 -as only not to apply to p ar i s h es un d er L oca l A c t s , but alse;itob not to those under Gilb er t' s A c t ; hi s cons tituents were , alarmed at the Bill, an d were on l y qu i e t e d by the pro m the Noble Lord. A ith Lerd JOHN RUSSELL had no intention to interfe re e pro' , b such parishes, but he was no t sure th a t th e words of t h an vino would carry more meaning than the Hon. Geatlernrail tended. He could not consent to the introduction of the f til l then—he would propose the adj ournmen t o f the discus soxi to-morrow to allow time for consideration. 13/ll' tb Mr. GRINSDITCH had great objection to the House could not do better than to throw it out. . Mr. T. DUNCOMBE pressed his clause. The House divided, when there appeared, For the clause . l4 Against it Majority against the clause The Bill was ordered to be engrosse d an d rea d a to"' to-morrow. The Report of the C omm itt ee on t h e Rogue Money ment (Scotland) Bill was brought up. The Bill was ore to be engrossed and read a third time on Monday. The Report o f th e C omm i ttee on t h e M e tropolitan Ime /e. ment Bill was bro ug ht up , an d or d e red to be read a third P";,,,0 to-morrow. The Militia Pay Bill went through Committee. Report V oi morrow. The Joint St oc k B an ki n g Companies Bill was read a se 7 time, and ordered to be committed. ne ,411 The report on the Stage Carriages Bill was received , Bill ordered mot be read a third time to-morrow. th s On the ion of the ATTORNEY- GENER we& Lords' Amendments to the Imprisonment for Debt W.' considered and agreed to. d tita g The Grand Jury Cess (Ireland) Bill was rea d a third and passed. • isit r Lord HOWICK brought in a Bill for the better adfro n e yd tion of justice i n d e t ac h e d par t s o f count i es, whic h Was I first time, after a few words from Mr. Hume. SLAVE TRADE (PORTUGAL) BILL. w hich Lord PALMERSTON rose in pursuance of the wa tic t e b e fop s he had given to move for leave to bring in a Bill for e.l e j pression of the Slave Trade. The House was avlar1„00, said circumstances which induced him to make this raer' n ' t , , j( l knew by a Committee which had been 11 1 ) 11. 1- ,A be e :, search the Lords Journals that the Bill which "'" - floe', passed for that purpose, and sent to the et,,l'r,r heats) of Parliament, had not paiud that House.—e-le ar ' a ttb, e 3 This proceeding might have led this House to irov.gine was a difference of opinion between the two House' w , n ssb A l ment on this great, interesting, and i:n ortant subject, j s tel' it related ; and if that difference Opi P nion had really' e rioos e- 6 1 would have been a subject of deep - cbncern to this 0 . 0 , ( h Hear. hear)--andtirefi 0- - have materially if not en er t e efforts which this 'riouse in concurrence with the of , c ok, of Parliament ha. '.l made to put an end to this abomina l lot t o P o Hut he was ' nappy to be able to state to the 1 1 °1 0 1 ta i 'to Procee( l 2ings of the other House of Parliament whirl' rill's. pla,;i:e since the rejection of that Bill, tended satisk` t oy , c t slim that the rejection of that Bill did not arise frote a - t obr oo ference between the Houses of Parliament and the .g re ori ceP ti o r in view, but must have been founded on nt r ' se m etii i ds of the grounds on which the Bill was 'r a w ! ° o f some objection as to matters of form conn ec ooos e to the proceedings coupled with that Bill, because 'the ad arrt i % Lords had since they rejected that Bill, sent up en , 0 0 ;11 the Crown couched in the strongest possible te„rr a ." e 'stl upon the Crown to give to the cruizers of her n' a i g i to n r o se orders as might eventually enable them to put &wr i t t he 1" o te vent the traffic in slaves. That address proved that P" Of with ot a bie b of Lords was sincerely desirous of co-operating in the . attainment of that object—(Hear, hea r) ;es o ld address, by calling upon the Crown to take inee - ku n g, t his the Crown would not hesitate for a moment in t w hich s od thus remove that ground of formal objection en . c oept , tro in House was led to suppose they were i n disposed to ;Igo ' A O pa.i this particular measure, A s fa r as h e could J, o bje.„ -- 0 the proceedings which had taken place, two g rounds, a nd 0 , had been taken, first, as to th e course o f proceedZiaS , s e : f o condly, as to the particular na t ure o f t h e Bill. ht to P ose tended, in the first place, th a t t h e procee di n g nag fo ot „ e s originated in consequen ce o f a commun ication he f C r own to Parlia men t. Th at o bj ect i on wo uld n°(loose ° big moved by the answer to the address of thee re..o in th P I Lords. The other objection was that fAce . , i t of the Bill Parliament was called on to P re " is 0 1 * 0 opinion upon the differences which had arisen beV:ieeie bee p Britain and Portugal, and. it was understood to ha -