The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-02 00:00:00

the constable, as he did in the case of friend of his who was now he (Sir J. Graham) be loved th e " t an outlaw. Ile, again, attacked the . conduct of aes Pit prosecutor. At another time it was the wit e,„'" whom he assailed. Upon the whole the Hon. ti re ' tt letean had a, most morbid sensibility—an instinctive la leas l as it w ere, of political inquiries. —(Hear, and to Luter from the Ministerial benches.) And be, seemed to 7 greaoy alarmed that justice'had at last overtaken g ad offend ers. He wished him joy. —(Hear, hear, lie,,,!; a ugli.) But with respect to his own (Sir J. Gra th t c onduct, he had the approval of the majority of -.°ese•—(Laughter from the Opposition benches.) gsal/ arranged opposite to him, note ithstanding some aration, a strong muster or parties opposed to the Zernent. They (the Ministers) had math no such pa went, but atilt he felt confident that without aeseg th made any such prep ara ti on , i n appea l ing to the lloe feeling, an d t h e ju d gment of t h at House, the :0 Gentleman would not succeed in his motion. Par 1 J . . RUSSELL sa id that he certainly made no ratations—(Cheers and laughter)—for this debatehe , • f " e intend to tak e an y other part in it than what frog did 4 ca lled upon t o take in consequence of what fell Ma e t he Right H on. Gentleman. The Right Honour thoB Gee he believed it was th e practice of I ra t : eho were concerned in the executive department Wag' c , °w ltra"--at least so far as the Home Department qtli e ,, °--ce rned—to send persons, when the excited state e k - eetiatry required it, to obtain reports of what took . W e al P i lhile meetings. He would say, at once, that if the the Go vernment, an d i f the excited state of te..,frale „ mind, either in Engl an d or I re l an d, requ i re d k 0 1 ;ge meetings were held, and if it a pp eare d "t o late, - re ading the reports o f w h a t p asse d at t h ose . emeligs, th at anything of a seditious, or dangerous :b t 7 , had been said, he would consider it it his duty Nra 4l l,. correct reports of the proceedings.—(Hear, i le .' cue did not know that he Would have done any- Ne i 'Jut what the Right Hon. Gentleman had done-- e 1 .1p1 1 " aPPIY to Mr. Gurney for a short-hand writer, tor e ,,t he could place confidence, and send him to take ttlet-4, reports of what had taken place, more 3 tia la4l 3' if the language was of such a character Olt render it necessary to i nst i tute legal proceed eattat,e would say ther e wou ld b e no secur i ty f or t h e t5 e ,,,% 7 if reports of Meetings were to appear in the ttierPers, and alleaved to be circulated by them, con tioaog Perhaps language of a seditious and revolu !loae /' kind, and if the Government of the country eta we je not to have cognisance of what passed at -tteti,,..ie was not now speaking of any particular kal t k - aseut of possible meetings, at which language of t he cearacter might have been used. He thought Nkl,itecutseuld be placed in great danger if the i tl s t 7,,"id not do his duty in such a case.—(Hear.) ',ta m ° t he view which the Right Hon. Gentleman did glityAnleetings. he thought he would not be doing his 8e tams h ad did not take steps to have correct reports of % n il " been done at those meetings.—(Hear, hear.) writ t : u ght that a person employed as a shorthand 144 till „) an ti Paid at the rate at which those persons were / 'lls w as a person very different from those were formerly employed by the Govern ,Md who w ere ca ll e d ep i cs. — ( C r i es o f a t l‘tal e' ' B ear.") B u t if h e was a person employed se "vent into the secret councils of persons Ytte, to be disaffected—if he watcbed- their len- Zae ,„ a •z a-. reported to his employers what passed at 4t ~,,„eret meetings:such a person might go b e y on d Lx Yete'cerreet,- and might excite and p romo t e th a t t a t e," a ueetie t i and sedition, that ver y t reason , w h ic h 'a fa irateemPloyed to report, But a perso n w h o goes t o ly andfaithllitly the commands he has re * P take a report of. what passes at public meet - -to the commission of any crime 4 il t e t tt l ere lY states_ what he sees, and . takes .down what ... %44 11 3. Then, bOw could any person conceivea-how. ''itt • a L I Y Person have right to complain of it as a nme dourwhen he 'is Simply sent among them to their o e a words? The , Right Honourable proceeded to the other part of his 'ts,kre „,"Pon which, certainly (continued his - Lordship), t e "• 8 0 Willing, because I am not so able, to' ertalatr- "Won. Right lion. Gentleman re 'fitote„." 'ne• corroboration which he required of the " e et 'reports, from the reporters 'of the PaPers t • ° teees a • that waS merely . asking those `d x s u9Wa . repoets of ,proceedings, to appear atthe ` , ll, as.. to what they had so taken' b - mer- to verify what had been taken by the titiVrcPOrtes.:l cannot see what matter of ‘o to could be in making that request.—(Hear, Nr,„,hether it might • not injure the credit of a t;Nc n k'Lr. if it should be known that its reporters were e rA 'h of assisting thnGovernment in its - prosecu- Ctei:'X',,was tematter for the 'proprietors of news e tk A ttaae 3 "flac- s to consider ; that was a matter of 117 Nikay and newspaper morality, with which -. 'e d ,ti, went has no concern. But I must say that ty e h of_ the Rig ht Hon. Gentleman's .defence, aced remor ad to Mr. Charles Ross, depends entirely on • • LeY with which that individual observed his in. • de ‘,..._•lfhe openly made his report to the Govern t emetairrt, ruent.m Ireland or England, and . did ~,erole, chareeter, then the instructions given him , 1 1 4 a47„ n Per, and were properly observed ; but if, on the ;Tr O , J ; I tr. L Ross concealed his character in any °r worined himself into the councils and LMa a ,T, of those gaged in the repeal agitation, then t itts t i et " relit what e t n lie Right Hon.-Baronet says abalit the 7, 12 k44 1 J51 P he gave him, but I must say, . -some injury tiler ut, by those instructions-not being duly car-, d i ,rose - for the purpose of stating what I con- L t eof u r ,V 'would have been had been in the ser r.h.ll. t - a ' r ewn, but the Right Hon. Gentleman has k ,„,'q some compact and alliance bet Ween myself K'lectt,:','Conriell. I am perfectly well aware of - the t , Latch, during the existence of the late Govern- th constant reiteration of that charge—(Hear)- 04 a b l,"'"ertion that the patronage of the Government e thTl at the disposal of Mr. O'Connell, produced 4 " of the Government, though the - charge t w r a e, t ki Et 13? u ngunded. Although the statement that there, "P s ti l efe te . _ nee compact between Mr.- O'Connell and my riti. t ki vo te ie ration, yet I will never shrink if I see, . one else—any other person of less 9 1 b ahumbler sphere of life-L-whatever :'ne: 'Le obloq g uy ln to which I may be exposed in cense ta or that 'd 1 rat'on—l will never shrink, when I 1 1114 47° 11 tre i ti ee ted a in the i manner in which Mr. O'Coa- V :eta treated, from declaring in this House, that o te.sou h had a fair trial.—(Loud cheers,) o as not tra ke lt? that the Right Hon. Gentle . man can cast -- • , 44 110 obloquy that the party to which the Right ti ti4ist e . 'tertian belongs can cast upon me, for acting "'ler shall deter me from doing what I con-. c ruet &Ut to the Constitution.-(Loud .. cheers.) 'The r e , Gentleman prides himself upon the results • q t ,hela7u,;_ but since he so prides himself, I will atate touelat if the same offence had been committed I, l4 l iltal h nr , n trY, supposingAttorney-General for the hat similar course, we (1 . 4 o.v m andPtirsedif a (C e ' el le ; nut ere s n e t m eharge from the judge -44‘, _, r s)—and a different verdict from . the jury.— v Nai'eu eheer'na ) That is my opinion, and be the s kri,_ - ' Who they l will cease from endea.- a may, I never tt o kee t obtain for the people of Ireland the full . s e e n s: 0 of °lien those rights and - privileges, of the p?a .41,,,Twnich the people of England . are :so ) l i -say •e,,,kt s ,MEnens e cheering.) . h"COMBE rose to reply. In the first place_ q ° Yie et° accused of charging the Government with the'Si' S Pies and calling those persons spies- who honourable agents. Ile had done no such G overlentG reporter at public meetings, acting for , confessed himself as the agent for the tir ette o t" , the re was certain l y no thi ng t o justify the kh,_4ot e4l r the wor d s p y t o hi m . —(H ea r, hear.) He 1 that man a spy—far from it. Mr. Bond /4 4W tO th as n° spy.—(Cheers from both sides.) He ese Metings, and openly acknowledged him % Irer 'fi eit and h Y ne e of them as an agent from the Govern- teas e e had himself manfully avowed that, ,on all ki 2 aica ' " was received with that courtesy and re p n(r t e'rere gentleman so employed, and so avowing tt Ni:Yraent, was entitled.—(hear, hear.) Inoo ea dear opinion, such courtesy would ,;,,„ .. ° aghout England, as 'well as Ireland, to . gee= s ke k `ael e- rged in those arduous duties, and it was . ora: '„'• should be so, for only through Ti th e : Leg g r edress reports could there be any' he e t ,ted t o e sa of grievances.—(Hear, hear.) Ross s was lleY dee s aY that the position of Mr;Charles os ce ed e b rent to that of Mr. Bond Hughes.—(Hea.r.) [4:,.ttikh t " e ty, had been very different.—(Hear, hear.) 1 44 M - tion. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) said he em 14,!tte--;.vi'l Charles Ross, knowing at the time that he ai Q ttin t i' T nt to the Morn i ng Ch . , oniele. He left it to lo t) 4 , to 'en. Baronet to reconcile it with his own c one tahti t b e thus employing a man whose services . be -1,)i;t111, lin e ° ? t bers, and those others differing so widely to p o litics.—(Cheers.) Of course with that h Ir ov e ' e 9f honour and that regard for morality which ekr distinguished the public conduct of the Right deutetiet, before employing Mr. Charles Ross, he 14k09oaiejetless written to the proprietors of the Morn i ng d . ke era to advise them of his intention so to IV of era , loud' laughter.) n ßut what was the con -I''lseq'" • n• -Mesa? Did be obey the instructions . t4 el ag that the Right Ron. Baronet (Sir Jame o s c,bot h e ,t,tsserted that evening he had given to him, n N ( Lta ori 'ad done so —did Mr. Charles Ross,-he asked, "'neez...e instructions ?—(Hear, hear.) No he did note tt li tt 4 4414 •Ross, in his examination at the tri e l l 5 1 . Lt y ou "iiid you at the meetings you attended 14 4 1% e f te t l h f to be an accredited agent and wee • Are Government ?" His words, in . an ra ask ed " certainly no t. , '— (Hear, hear . , hear.) , with re f erence to another occasme, who Yes, 4,g00d place on the platform. His answ . e . r . 4 : 1 , 1 ' 11 I h' gOt 0. very good place on the seaffoli?, 114.aa,9°I;ained through the proprietor of the Dublin: t ho a l : 4e Why was this place given to n ? Tim in- Proprietor of that paper thought he was t he Ltieie ~t e, ..!at aft hinaself. When he went otat se ,4,7l'viee-cuovernment reporter, he was employed in '45 ed °' the Standard. He was asked whether he ek°eretoe t}o, Standard that he was employed by the ork ll P reply was" Certainly not." The fact te4tral LY Persons in thusecret were the Attorney %h,eti th„nd th e Right Hon. Baronet. Now be - con -I,4p`e -1," according to the definition laid down lay the ~kd tab d th e x , I , Member fur the City of London, and i:irst t he " de 7: ll , • Gentlemen opposite, Mr..Ros's came from the er le i b ription of a spy.—(No, no, (tO k;",hite ' ac hes.) The Right Hon. Baronet had trustvvorthy and honourable man. He to • ..c°4lhe)left it to the people and to the country jh il e : th er it was honourable on the part of Mr. Ross )1° h il t th; e e niee tings as a Government agent, without tatee tu i,'rie v „,. e et• With regard to the Morning Herald, tl l ,' tti ku -• said a word against Mr. Jackson, any ghe, h e ha, , r is word the conduct of Mr. Bond 4 h kel At th e it!aelsson's conduct reflected credit upon ea of his of his examination, he was so ° lzi! ee l ' employers, that lie exclaimed, " So help ~a, e t awa.. the solicitor for the Crown sent for me, I 4 p ia "hed e or ",that the notes which I had made were td 4 0: 4 4 i r n ed thatt'theelro. sec ution."--(Hear, hear.) Now it 9 „ Ight. Hon. Baronet did apply to the an the Standard for information, ,and What he (Mr. T. Duncombe) wanted was, an account of the sums paid to persons employed by the Morning Herald Wand the Standard newspapers. Mr.. Ross 'stated, in his examination, that he would not have it known - for 50,0001. that he went to Ireland as a Government agent; he said he would only have'gone as a newspaper reporter. On being asked if be would have gone for 75,0001., he said, «Well, I think would;" but he would not under 75,0001. have acknow ledged to the Irish people that he was the agent of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Laughter.) Did the Right Hon. Baronet allude to the meeting of his (Mr. Dun combe'syconstituents which he attended last night ? It was possible that there might have been a Government reporter there—(Laughter)—but, at all events, whoever gave the Right Hon. Baronet his information of what passed there, it was very bad. That meeting was called to take into consideration the best measures for expres sing their opinion's in favour of the motion which his Hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale was about to bring before the House. It was true also that the meet ing had expressed in strong terms their unabated confidence in the humble individual who was then ad- dressing them.- - (Laughter.) The meeting last night had not the slightest reference to any other objects con templated in his motion, and he thought that such an insinuation i•as most uneandid. The Right Hon. Baronet had accused him (Mr. Duncombe) of acting as a public prosecutor. He should pursue the same course which he always had done, and whether it were a judge, a jury, or even the Right Hon. Baronet himself, be sliould consider it his duty to bring any op pression they might commit before the House so long as he held a scat in it. Mr. BELLEW would say a few words with respect to the defence of the Attorney-General for Ireland, that their reason for refusing to give the names of the 'witnesses was, that cards had been handed about Dublin denouncing Mr. Hughes as a spy and an informer; but the Hon. c shot'ld recollect that this had not beendone until :Mr. Hughes had been accused of having committed perjury—most unknowingly he (Mr. Bellew) would say, because all that occurred with respect to Mr. Hughes was so!cly owing to the Crown Solicitor's conduct. He would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Attorney- General for Ireland, if he had received any explana tion upon this subject, as a sufficient time had now elapsed since the conclusion of the debate. He could only say that this .was one of - the many pro ceedings during the trial which had created an impres sion on the minds of the people of Ireland, that from be ginning to end there had not been fair .play in the late trials, and notwithstanding the opinions expressed on the other side of the House, that impression would con tinue. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided— . For the motion 73 • Against it Majority against the motion —7l LOCAL POOR-LAW ACTS. Mr. D. APLEAN wished to know whether the Right Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary intended to refer local Poor-law Acts to a Select Committee, ? Sir JAMES GRAHAM' said that such was"not his utention. TPIE SIT ,- .N.744.0ND0N, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 2, . 1844. mission. As to the ten-gun - brigs, he say - that he thought they were a class of vessels very much maligned. He had had several under his command, and he had found them very useful. He did not deny that many ten-gun brigs had been lost ; but he was convinced that their loss was attributable to the deficiency of crews and the want of men to attend to their sails ; although there were cases in which the loss was clearly to be ascribed to their being struck by lightning. There was a 'great deal more said than there ought to be in order to make a row about these vessels. Certainly they were not ves sels that he (Sir George Cockburn) admired—they were not good sailers. However, they were getting rid of them, and adding a class of others to the navy which he hoped would be faster, though he was pretty sure they would not prove safer vessels.—(Hear, hear.) Capt. PECHELL explained. Sir CHARLES NAPIER said he thought it was a matter of great regret that when millions were being voted away in that House there was always such a thin attendance—there being sometimes not more than forty Members present. He considered this circumstance a serious reflection upon the character of that House. — (Laughter.) •He further thought it extremely odd that the reporteri, when these millions were being voted, also declined attendance, or, what was pretty nearly the same thing, they shut their books up immediately. — (Loud laughter.) However, he should do his duty, and leave the responsibility of this absence from the House to the Members guilty of it. He wished on the present occasion to say a few words on the subject of the vic tualling and the paying of the Navy. First, to the pay inglThey paid a seamen for what was called the thir teen months in the year. Now, in his opinion, this was a great absurdity, and the practice should at once be abolished. A Sailor did not understand thirteen months in the year, and he would be much more satisfied if the Admiralty would change the system, still giving to him of course the two pounds, for that amount to him was a very great thing indeed. He would next go to the petty officers—a class of men most necessary to keep up the comfort, happiness, and discipline of a ship, and there fore highly to be prized by any Government. If the petty officers had been properly treated in earlier years —if they, had been better paid and more respected, the country would never have heard of the mutiny of 1798. In the present day there was a good deal that might be done for this most useful class of men, and he was satisfied that even on the ground of economy the Government would lose nothing if they gave the second-class petty officers one-half more than the seamen, and the first-class petty officers double what the seamen received. He should mention that the seamen themselves could be made much more satisfied if so much were not drawn_from them on the voyage for slops, in order that, when they arrived at home, they might have more to draw. A remedy should be applied, here. He came next to the subject of boys ; and he must say he could not agree in what had fallen from the Gallant Admiral opposite (Sir George Cock burn.) Boys were fit for sea when 98 pounds weight. —(Laughter.) If they gotinto a good ship, with an active and conscientious officer, their manners, morals, and education, were alike excellently attended to. At the proper time they were taught to reef and steer, and to take their part capitally in the whole work of the ship. They were made first-class boys at 17, or what was gene• rally termed " bobble-de-hoys ' " and then they came homeward. When they got ashore, the crimps pounced upon them, got them to bad houses, taught them to chew tobacco, to smoke, to drink, to do everything, in short, that was nasty and bad. This was the way to ruin the poor lads, and just after such pains and care had been bestowed on them. They were not old enough for the merchant service, and so they were left to ramble about drenched with every vice that could degrade them. In his opinion Government ought to take them on board the flag-ships, in preference to taking new hands. In this neglect of the boys he found 'one of the main causes which made sailors so careless in their after lives. Next, he should allude to the pensioned seamen. Four teen years used to be the term in which a sailor was entitled to a pension—now it was twenty-one. The fourteen years ought, in his opinion, to have been kept to, for twenty-one years was too long for a seaman to look forward to. Under present circumstances he would not give both pension' and pay; but the pay increased by pension, which, from time to time, might be increased also. For instance, the pay of a sailor was 181.; but that after 14 years he increased by pension to 25/. or so. In a little while. he would increase this sum, and keep mo derately increasing it, thus not only securing present good conduct, but inducing good men to remain in the service. Next he should refer to the masters. Upon this subject also he did not agree with the Gallant Ad miral opposite (Sir G. Cockburn). Masters were not brought up now in the merchant service, but in our own. He thought they ought to hold out an encouragement to their Lieutenants in the navy to qualify for masters, and that might be done by giving them better pay. Mr. WILLIAMS complained that the items for which this large sum was to be expended were not placed clearly before the House. In the army esti mates all was clear and intelligible, but such was not the case in the navy, , ' After some few observations from Mr, Tuffnell, Mr. S. Herbert, Captain, Dundas, and Captain Plumridge, the vote was agreed to. The next vote was 126,826 L to defray the salaries of the officers connected with the Admiralty, and the ex pense of the Admiralty office. Mr. WlLLlAMS'suggested that it would be a 'great improvement if the clerks in these departments were required to work more hours a-day, and were better paid. It would be more satisfactory to the persons employed, and the' public service would be better performed. Captain ROUS said that on a former evening it was stated that the Government could on an emergency have 20(1 merchant steamers, and thus have the entire com mand of the narrow seas. But he would ask whether the Admiralty could procure 200 naval officers, who knew anything of steam-vessels, to command them ? He believed that at this moment one half of her Majesty's steamers were commanded by officers who knew nothing whatever about steam-vessels or their machinery, and were so completely dependent on the engineers, that they could not make any evolution without first consulting him, so that they were the servants of the vessels, rather than the commanders. The 'navy generally was not in the state it ought to be. The French squadron on the coast of Syria went through evolutions that could not be executed by our fleet. But, if the Admiralty would persist in employing old officers, who had been a quarter of a , century on the shelf, instead of active young officers, it was imposssible that their ships. could be well commanded. It was owing to the great care the French Government took to have young and active officers that their ships were so well managed. But here, so great was the preference given to old officers, that a young one was scarcely allowed to have any opinion at all. In other situations a man was allowed to arrive, at some time or other, at years of discretion—(Laughter) -- but , in the navy, he was not considered worth anything till he could neitherhear, see, nor chew her Majesty's biscuit. —(Great laughter.) He condemned the manner in which a preference was given at the Admiralty to ships of certain construction ; he once commanded a 28-gun frigate for four years, and, when he reported to the Admiralty that she would make a very good merchant ship, but was a disgrace to a civilised nation, - as a ship of wqr, he was told that all the previous reports from captains of this class of vessels had been highly favourable; it was well known, in the service that if a captain did not report well of a ship belonging to a class in which the Admiralty took an interest, there was an end of his prospects of future employment.—(Hear, hear from Sir C. Napier.) The same ships were re ported against by one other officer—Captain Dundas, the son of the First Lord of the Admiralty at the time— and he was written to by Mr. Croker, both publicly and privately, deprecating the course he had taken. But, some time afterwards, when it was found that the Ad miralty had no longer any interest in these - vessels, there was not a dissentient voice in the profession respecting. the bad qualities of these vessels. In the same manner they must be cautious how they received all these re ports about the merits of the Penelope, and other steamers, and of the vessels of Captain Symonds. They might believe as much of them as they liked ; and the less, they believed of them the better.—(Hear, hear.) Every report from the Dockyards on vessels not built by themselves was not to be depended on ; the build of ships in the private yards was much superior to that of the naval yards. But though the navy surveyor and navy builders hated each other like poison—(Laughter) —yet they all combined in condemning any vessel built in the yards of London, Liverpool, and Isle of Wight, though they were as superior to the ships inher Majesty's service, as Sir W. Symonds was to a working shipwright. He contended that year after year the Board of Admi ralty was in the habit of humbugging the House of Commons.—(Great laughter.) And the greatest use he could be in the House was, when he saw one of these sneaking jobs attempted, to lay it bare to them. He repeated his condemnation of the continual preference of old officers to young, ones, and concluded by stating, that when one of these valuable old officers was sent to sea, after being . 25 years on shore, the only hope was that he would get a good young commander or first lieutenant to take care of him, that ho would hold his tongue on all occasions, 'and give good dinners to his lieutenants and midshipmen, whenever he invited them to his table.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Sir GEORGE COCKBURN hoped that when the Hon. and Gallant Member quoted anything he had said that he would quote him correctly. He had never stated that a young officer was not to have an opinion. What he did say in the debate the Hon. and Gallant Member had alluded to was this, that having heard a certain opinion expressed by a young officer he hoped the House would not refuse to listen to an old one. With regard to the charges made by the Gallant Member be denied that they applied to the present Board of Ad miralty. He would defy any Board to take more pains than it had done to improve the state of the navy. He defended the surveyor of the navy (Captain Symonds), stating his conviction that the service was much indebted ' to him.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time he did not think his ships were perfect, and the Ad miralty were making every exertion to procure improve ments on Them. They had selected the three most ta lented naval architects from the different yards, and sent them to Chatham to make a scientific report on the defects supposed to exist in these vessels. An elaborate Report bad been presented to the Admiralty, pointing out the defects, and stating the scientific reasons for them, These three naval architects were now employed in constructing vessels according to their own plans, in order to remedy these defects, and, if possible, to try, if, a perfect ship could not be constructed. If the Admi ralty had done so much in the short time it had been . appointed, it could not be open to the charge of neglect ing the state of the navy. Improvements were constantly going on, an& fifty years hence their ships might per haps be a great deal better than they were at present.. As to the French squadron getting under weigh in such. superior style.on the coast of Syria, he had been assured by the 'Captain of the Asia that when in port with three or fotir of these same French shit*, they being 611 pout' to the same place, it come on to blowhard, and the Asia Was the only ship that' was able to get - out.—(Hear.) It was very easy to get up in that House and make such charges and assettions'as - these ; to say that our ships were bad and our officers worse ; but he believed the navy was just as able as ever to maintain its superiority over that of other nations. Sir T. TROUBRIDGE contended that so far from the navy being deteriorated, it was then better than ever it was ; there was less punishment, less- desertion, and the men, as a class, were better educated. There was as goOd fish in the sea as ever came out of it.—(Laughter.) Captain PECHELL concurred with the Hon. and Gallant Officer who last spoke. As to the French squa dron on the coast of Syria, the superiority of which had been talked of, that very squadron when recalled to France, was dispersed by a gale off the island of Corsica, and before it made Toulon, exhibited such a collection of "lame ducks" as had scarcely ever been witnessed. He was glad to hear the Gallant Officer state his opinion in the independent manner he had done. He believed the naval force of the country was never in a better condition generally, though there might be details in which he differed with the Gallant Admiral opposite. He thought that they ought to look well to the manner in which they built their ships. No vessel performed better or greater service than the Waterwitch, because she had been built of good materials. He was very well satisfied with the mode which they were now build ing their vessels, and he thought the Hon. and Gallant Member for Westminster must have alluded to the ships which had been built some years ago, when he complained of the manner in which their vessels were built. He com plained that Mr. Brunel had been placed over the head of Mr. Smith, the inventor of the Archimedean screw, in directing the application of that excellent in vention to the Rattler steam-vessel. The speed of the vessel had lessened from ten to eight knots an hour under the superintendence of Mr. Brunel. He consi dered it a great wrong that those naval officers who held appointments under the Government should have their half-pay stopped from them. He had no objection that the on. and Gallant Admiral opposite (Sir G. Cock burn) should receive his half-pay. Why not take the opinion of the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General as to their right to receive it? Was it not hard that the Lieutenant-Governor of Greenwich Hospital, Sir J. Gordon, who had lost a limb in fighting for his country should have his half-pay stopped because he held that situation? (Hear, hear.) Another great hardship was, that the amount of the income-tax was stopped from those naval officers who were serving abroad. A reduction was also made from the engineers who were serving in tropical climates, though one would think it ought to be bad enough to be shut up in the furnace of a steam-vessel under the tropics. He pointed out those disadvantages to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a former occasion. They now looked to the Hon. and Gallant officers who served amongst them for relief from those evils. There ought to be no party feeling on a question of this kind.—(Hear, hear.) The present Government boasted they were a strong Government. Ile hoped 'they would, therefore, do away with those evils of which the navy had to complain.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. A. CHAPMAN said he was sorry to hear from the Gallant Officer, the Member for Westminster, that the French showed themselves more expert than the English navy in getting under weigh, for he was proud of the British navy, and always wished to see it in a most efficient state.—(Hear, hear.) Captain ROUS explained. He had the greatest con fidence in the navy and the young officers, but if men were allowed to remain on shore for twenty-five years, he did not think they could be of much use when they went to fight.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) If, however, a war should unfortunately occur' between this country and the French, he would stake his existence upon the result.—(llear, hear.) After a few words from Sir G. COCKBURN, Sir C. NAPIER said that he congratulated the House and the country on the agreement which for once seemed to exist between naval officers on both sides of the House.—(Hear, hear.) He apprehended that this would turn out to be of the greatest benefit to the navy of the country. He recollected the Noble Lord the Member for Staffordshire (Lord Ingestrie), whom he was sorry not to see in his place, spoke of the unfairness of naval officers combining against the Government.—(A laugh.) But his (Sir C. Napier s) opinion was, that it was an ad vantage to the country at large to see naval officers combining, to reform all Boards of Admiralty—no mat ter whether Whig or Tory, it was equally indifferent to him. They would see that the discussion which had taken place that night would be followed by the most tremendous effect on this Admiralty.—(Laughter.) It was a fact that naval officers were SQ bowed down that they dare not speak their minds. They were afraid to say, " we want this or that," " this ship is bad," or " so and-so is wrong," because they knew it would not be liked at head-quarters. The Gallant Admiral opposite knew this very well, but human nature was such that he could not help it.—(Laughter.) And if he wanted to sup port that assertion he need only refer to what the Gallant Officei said with regard to the Penelope. He stated that she was a gallant vessel in paddles and box, that she was perfect and dry, and never shipped a drop of water. Why it was notorious to everybody but the Captain that, so far from never shipping water, and he was never above water—(Laughter)—that she was always under water, and only came up, like a porpoise, once an hour, to breathe.---(Much laughter.) That was known to every officer on board. They wrote letters to him privately, and they all expressed their opinions that she was only fit to be drowned. It was an absolute fact. He now came to the Albion. The Albion, of 3,000 tons, cost 90,0001. ; the Rodney, of 2,598 tons, cost 75,0001. ; the Powerful, and ships of that class, of 2,484 tons, cost 68,0001. Now the House would see what was gained in the Albion; It was intended to carry eight inch guns, 64 pounders. Why had not the Albion got the eight-inch guns ?—(Hear, hear.) If the Albion could not carry more guns than the other ships, what was the use of building a vessel of that description? The Albion mounted only six more guns than the Powerful, and of the same weight, w hil e . she cost 22,0001. more She carried her guns six feet four. A smaller ship of. the same weight of metal carried her guns seven feet four. The Rodney, which mounted two more guns than the Albion, carried her guns seven feet eight and seven feet ten out of the water. He would ask, what was the use of building ships of that description? There were six now on the stocks. He hoped the Gallant Admiral would take them to pieces. It was perfectly absurd to persevere in the present course. Some remarks had fallen from the Gallant Officer opposite about the French ships. He begged to state that he himself saw the French squadron under weigh one or twice. The weathe r was fi ne . —(Hear, hear.) The squadron got under w e i g h remar k a bly well. After s t an ding out to sea for two or t h ree d ays , t h e ves sels came in and took up their positions. Th e ca bl e s and anchors were run out, and the boats hoisted i n i n a su perior manner; and on one occasion he saw the Admiral's topsails reefed in five minutes. — (Hear, hear.) Now the House was well aware of his views on this subject. When officers arrived at a certain period of life they became compara tively idle, and were contented to lie quietly at anchor instead of exercising the ships as they ought to do. If they appointed young officers to command their ships, and young Admirals to command their fleets, he had not the slightest doubt that they would be superior to the French. They had had a three-deeker for three years under an Admiral 75 years of, to judge whether it was possibleage. He asked the House to bring up you n g offi cers properly under such a system ? It must be re membered that half the young officers of the navy were trained on board the ships at Malta, at Sheer ness, and at Plymouth.---(lfearr hear.) It would not be surprising if, und er th e ex i s ting system, the French, the American, or any o th e r navy, would prove superior to our own. He att r ib u ted the evil to the con stitution of the Admiralty.--(Hear, hear.) He blamed the Right Hon. Baronet for not acceding to the pro • posal to vote 15,000.. a year as a retiring allowance for the old officers in the service; sending them ashore happy and contented, instead of suffering them to prevent younger men from fulfilling their arduous duties. — (Cheers.) If they wanted to have a fleet which would y did be fit to compete with an enemy, they m ust appointe_as officers young men, of 40 years of age , and if they that they might defy the whole world. (Hear, hear.) Before he consented to this vote, he would be glad to know from the G a llant Officer opposite whether, after two years' experience, he approved of the present constitution ofthe Admiralty ?—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He would be glad to hear whether or not he had changed the opinion which he expressed when the subject was brought forward by the Right Hon. Baronet, thirteen years ago, who impressed on the House the necessity of consolidating the different departments, and said that they must either have a ll the officers at the Admiralty, or else the Board of Admi ralty must be removed to Somerset House ?—(Hear, hear.) At present, the Admiralty performed its duties partly in Whitehall, and partly at Somerset House, and the whole of the work fell upon five or six persons, who had no responsibility at all.—(Hear.) If the same system was adopted in this department which already existed in the Ordnance, he believed the most beneficial results would flow from the change. Without an alteration in this respect, it was impossible to hope for improvement in the navy. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said he should not give any answer to the question of the Gallant Officer as to the ;constitution of the Admiralty, except to say that so long as he could do his duty he would remain there, and when he could not he wou l d retire.—(Hear, hear.) The Gallant Officer, who dealt very much in assertions, had made some statements in reference to the Penelope. On that subject he begged to read an extract from a letter from Sir Charles Owen. It was as follows: "During the time that the Penelope was under my com mand from the 6th to the 11 th instant , there were her to steer generallyvery s h t eavy r seas and very strong gales. I directed right to windward, against head wind 'and tide, which she appeared to do without pitch ing in any degree or straining i n any way , and she was benches.)eviently perfectly dry."—Gear, from the Ministerial . Sir C. NAPIER said he' defied the Admiral, unless he were on board the vessel himself at the time, to form an accurate judgment in reference to the Penelope.—(Hear hoar.) He would be glad to know what was the opinion of Captain Austin, the officer in command. They had heard nothing on that subject.—(Hear, hear.) The vote was then agreed to. The next vote proposed was for a sum not exceeding 2,9801. to defray the expenses of the office for the registry of merchant seamen. Captain PECHELL wished to know if the merehant seamen were now fully and properly registered. If a vessel sailed for London, and afterwards put 'into a dis= tent port, were there any means Of ascertaining the persons on board? The Secretary of State for the Home Department had giyen notice of a Bill to amend the Act for the registry of merchant seamen, and therefore he imagined that the present plan did not work well. Be fore he sat down he would beg to state that. he thought the Gallant Admiral ought to have answered the ques don of the Gallant Commodore as to what NYll.S.Captain • „, • Austin's opinion of the-Penelope.-- Ha-thought the Ad miralty had done perfectly right to institute the experi ment, but the results of it ought to be stated fairly. Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT admitted that the system for the registry of merchant seamen did not work well, but as , his Right Hon. Friend had given notice of a Bill to amend the measure, he thought it would be better to defer the discussion until the Bill should be before the House. - Dr. BOWRING asked what was the number of sea men registered according to the last accountpj, Mr: SYDNEY HERBERT—About 12,000. _ _ Capt. PECHELL wished for more inforniation as to the working of the system. It had been introduced with a view to do away with impressment, but the shipowners had complained much of the working of the system. Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT was aware of those com plaints, and admitted that the system had not worked satisfactorily, but he thought the present was not the fittest opportunity-for discussing the question. The vote was then agreed to. The next vote proposed was, that a sum not exceed ing 38,076/. should be appropriated for defraying the ex penses of the scientific department of the navy. Captain PECHELL complained of the miserable ac commodation afforded to the hydrographers' depart ment in the Admiralty. It was a disgrace to the coun try. They were in arrears in the construction of their maps and charts from surveys, because they had not ac tually space sufficient to get them up in. The whole of the present building ought to be appropriated to the hy drographical department, and the other departments should be removed to Somerset House, and he believed that that alteration would have been made long since had it not been for the wives of the residents in the Ad miralty. The ladies did not.like to remove from the pre sent' building. Dr. BO WRING observed an item of 1,0001. a year for scientific experiments. No money would be more cheerfully voted, but he thought the House ought annu ally to be furnished with some account of those experi ments. He understood that a portion of this money had been devoted to experiments, the object of which was to endeavour to discover some substitute for steam power. That was a most praiseworthy object, and he wished to know if such, were the case? Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT said that some galvanic experiments had been tried, but he was not aware of any other experiments having for their object the discovery of a substitute for steam power. The greater part of the sum, however, had been expended in giving rewards to scientific men for important inventions. • Mr. WILLIAMS asked how the great falling off in the sale of the Nautical Almanac could be accounted for? Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT—lnstead of a falling off there has been an increase. Mr. WILLIAMS—I beg your pardon—l see lam mistaken.—(A laugh.) Mr. A. CHAPMAN expressed the gratitude felt by the merchant service to the Admiralty for the manner in which they published the most valuable charts at a very cheap rate.—The vote was then agreed to. A vote of 127,277/. was then proposed to defray the expenses of our naval establishments in the dockyards. Capt. PLUMRIDGE complained that the supply of water to some of the dockyards was deficient. Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT said that tanks were always kept in thb dockyards, and that 'they could have more water if it.svere requited. Mr. TUFNELL wished to draw the attention of the , Government to 'the case of a most meritorious set of officers, he meant the inspectors of the dockyards. They had been originally appointed in 1835, and al though their duties were much more arduous than those . of the dockmen their salaries were only 1001. per annum, while the salaries of the dockmen were 150/. When they were first established they were only on duty five days in the week. They, were now on duty six days a week, and they had! not the advantage enjoyed by day-pay officers, of having extra pay for extra work. Another point to which he' wished to advert was whether the men employed in the dockyards ought to have the enjoyment of the elective franchise or not. He thought they ought, for he had never seen a more independent set of men than the ope ratives employed in the dockyards. Mr. BARNARD thought the subject of whether the Government dockyards: ought to be rated to the poor rates in the parishes in which they were situated ought to be considered by the Admiralty. He thought it an injustice on the other inhabitants of the towns in which the dockyards were situated that those dockyards were not rated the same as other property. Mr. S. HERBERT could inform the Hon. Member for Devonport (Mr., Tufnell) that the question of the superanuation of persons engaged in the dockyards was at present under the consideration of the Admiralty. With respect to the observations of the Hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Barnard) he had to state that all houses in the dockyards . which were beneficially occu pied were rated to the relief of the poor, but those houses which were occupied as offices were not rated. This question had often been mooted in the Courts of Law and the decisions had always been in favour of the plie sent system. rt Dr. BOWRING wished to know if any improvemen had been made in the mode of keeping store accounts The store accounts generally were very unsatisfactory. The balance of stores had always been very inaccurately known and very inaccurately reported. Mr. S. HERBERT said that very great pains had been taken to introduce an improved system of keeping the accounts of public stores.—The vote was agreed to. A vote of 22,42fi1. was next proposed, to defray the expenses of her Majesty's naval establishments abroad. Dr. BOWRING asked if this vote was meant to apply to contemplated or existing establishme4s ? Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT estab lishments.—Agreed to. et The next vote proposed was, that a sum, not exceed ing 649,324 L, be granted for the payment of labourers 'and artificers in the naval yards. • Dr. BOWRING thought the nature of the vote should be more distinctly specified. The House should be Informed how" many men were employed, and what the rate of wages was. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said the average rate of wages was 4s. 6d. per day. Sir JAMES DUKE said he understood that a very pernicious practice prevailed in the Royal Hospital at Greenwich, viz. — that of transmitting those unfortunate patients who became lunatics to private asylums in London, instead of being sent to the extensive and well conducted establishment at Haslar. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said the matter had been very recently under the consideration of the Admiralty. It sometimes happened that inmates of the Royal Hos pital, Greenwich, were afflicted with a temporary insanity which did not last longer than a month. Until the lunacy became confirmed, the establishment at Haslar had an objection to receive them. After a few words from Captain Gordon, Mr. Williams and Mr.- S. Herbert, the vote was agreed to. A sum of 298,3661. was voted for the purpose of de fraying the expenses of the works in the naval dock yards. 20,165 i. was voted for medical services. On the motion that the sum of 61,6301. be granted for miscellaneous services, Captain PECHELL complained that the allowance to captains was very disproportionate. Mr. S. HERBERT said that the subject had been for a considerable time under the consideration of the Go vernment, and he had no doubt that an arrangement would be made to the satisfaction of the captains. The next vote proposed was for the sum of 742,2961. to defray the charge of the half-pay to the officers of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. The vote was agreed to. The next vote proposed was for the sum of 495,626/. to defray the charge of pensions and allowances. Mr. WILLIAMS considered that this vote ought to be postponed until the Government had given an expla nation to the House of the continued increase in the de mand for this branch of the public service. Mr. S. HERBERT justified the vote, and stated that there had been no increase in this part of the public service from last year. The reason . why the amount ap peared so much larger was that many items were in cluded in this vote that came under a different head last year. _ _ - After a short conversation between Mr. S. HERBERT and Mr. MORE O'FERRALL, Sir C. NAPIER said there ought to be a more intelli gible principle of granting pensions to wounded officers. Some years ago an officer received a pension for a wound that was equal to the loss of a limb. Her Majesty reserved to herself the right of panting pensions for services. If he received a wound in - one leg that made it two inches shorter than the other, he should have a pension; but if he was shot in both legs, so as to bring ' him upon an oven keel—(Great laughter)—he should have no pension at all.—(Laughter.) Lie did think that in future, if an officer received a wound, he should be examined by me dical men, their report to fix what pension he ought to receive. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, that if the wound was not equal to the loss of a limb, he received a gra tuity, if equal to the loss of a limb he received a pension.—The vote was then agreed to. 162,959/. was voted for defraying the expenses of civil pensions and allowances. On the vote of 160,8901. being proposed to defray the expenses of transporting stores, Mr. MORE O'FERRALL refered to several items in the amount in which there was an increase whilst in others there was a decrease. It appeared to him, that there ought to be either an increase or decrease throughout. After a Short discussion, the vote was agreed to. 96,327/. was voted for the conveyance of convicts to Now South Wales and Van Diemen's Land. On the motion for granting 432,5411. for the expenses of the packet-service, Dr. 130 WRING said, that as he understood that the packets were now engaged in far less extensive service than they formerly were, he would be glad to know if there was any objection to show how the money was ap plied. He also begged to ask whether there was any probability of a communication being established, by means of steamers, with certain portions of the Ottoman empire ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no objection to lay on the table the information which the Hon. Gentleman desired. He could not hold out any hope of • the establishment of the communication in question. In consequence of the arrangement with the French Go vernment, letters from Turkey could be received through France at a cheaper rate, and in a shorter time`than they could be received by packet, He therefore thought he should not be justified in demanding the Post-office to incur this additional expense. Mr. F. T. BARING complained that the times of the starting of the Admiralty packets was never known ; and suggested that a time table should be regularly pub lished. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL wished that the contract packet service should be taken under the control of the Lords of the Admiralty. The vote was then agreed to, and the House resumed.—The Report was ordered to be brought up on Monday. .1 PETITIONS. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose to move an amendment on the subject of the petitions presented to that House, complaining that the House of Commons did not repre sent the people. The substance of those petitions was contained in a petition which was presented, a short time ago, from the town of Birmingham. The allega tions in that petition were--firstly, that that House did not represent the people ; secondly, that it did not possess the confidence of the. people • thirdly, that a large number of Mem bers had notoriously obtained their seats by the most profligate bribery and corruption ; fourthly, that the proceedings of that House were obviously influenced by selfish, personal, and party motions, rather than by the interests of the people. These were the . allegations contained in that petition which had been laid on the table of the House. He was much surprised,.in.refer ring to the Journals, to find that this important docu ment had not been published by the Committee on Peti tions. There had boen 31 petitions presented during the I present session, all complaining of grievances, and he had only found that one of those petitions had been pub lished. His proposition was for a Select Committee to inquire into the subject of those petitions, and to make a report thereon. If that House did represent the people, .why did they not boldly and at once declare that the allegations contained in those petitions were unfounded? .He was not now going to advocate the extension of the franchise, although he thought the franchise ought to be extended. He should merely confine himself on the present occasion to the subject of the petition to •which he had adverted. So long as the impression ex isted in the minds of the people that they were not re presented in that House, so long would there be resist ance to the law ; and, under such circumstances, the only means by which the Government in this . country could be carried on would be that of an extensive military force.—(Hear.) He was surprised to hear the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncombe) express his objection to this motion, be cause he himself had taken a precisely , similar course. He (Mr. S. Crawford) could assure the House that it was not his intention to adopt any factious proceeding, nor should he pursue any course which he thought not calculated to be attended with success. He should, however, on all occasions when the army estimates were proposed, move that the military force of this country be reduced, and he should persist in such motions until the grievances of the people were redressed. The Hon. Member concluded by moving—" That the several pea . tions which have been received and laid on the table of this House since the commencement of the session, com plaining that this House is not a true representation of the people, be referred to a Select Committee to inquire into the said allegation ; and that the further considera tion of the Estimates be postponed till such Committee shall report thereon." Mr. BLEWITT seconded the motion. Every day's experience convinced him that that House merely legis lated for themselves, and this was more particularly shown in the late discussions on the Horse Racing Penalties Bill, which had been introduced for the pur pose of screening, on the plea of ignorance of the law, certain high personages who had violated the law. He would like to know how a plea of ignorance of the law would avail a poor wretch on his trial in a criminal 'court. Would that plea relieve him from the verdict of the jury or diminish his punishment? The corn-laws, too, were imposed merely , to put money in the pockets of the landlords by depriving the poor of bread. The House then divided, when there appeared For the motion 15 Against it 9l Majority -46 SUPPLY. The House then resolved itself into a Committee o Supply. On the vote that 594,3701. be granted for the vie• twilling of seamen and the marine forces. Dr.BOWRING th o ugh t,that when the House was called upon to vote away more than half a Million of money, they should have some information in detail to justify them in . giving their assent to it. The House ought to know how so large a sum was applied. Captain PECHELL opposed the employment of the naval force in the collection of poor-rates. Several ships of war had been employed at Castlebar, on the coast of Galway, in conveying land-lubbers of police, from place to place. The marine force had likewise been employed in the same disgraceful manner. Lord Lucan declared, that he would encourage opposition to the collection of a new poor-rate, whilst the old one - re mained unpaid, and in this most unpopular and despotic service were her Majesty's ships of war engaged. The Hon. and Gallant Member proceeded to censure the Admiralty for not bringing the principle of the Archime dian screw into more general operation. The Rattler, which was announced by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, to have been ready a long time ago was not yet completed, but was employed in running up and down the river, testing the efficacy of Mr. Brunei's experi ments. The Archimedian screw had been employed in the United States with great success, and one of the vessels which accompanied the Royal Yacht from Treport, was found " to be only surpassed by her Majesty's own vessel. He congratulated the Board of Ad miralty on the appointment of Mr. Hall, a most deserving officer, to the post of Commander in the navy, and to a situation in her Majesty's yacht. They were now going to raise 2,000 boys for the navy, but, after three years, their term ceased, and he was glad to see that many of them and their friends were most anxious that they should be .re-entered. . Each boy, that was `taken-was obliged to be 981bs. in weight, and most of those who were reared in the Gilbert unions were found to be qualified in that way ; but, unfortunately, the great part of those from the other poor-law unions, were found beneath that weight. What he was most anxious for was that those young men, after their term of service had expired, should not be thrown upon the streets without the slightest resource, and be conse quently compelled, in the greater number of cases, to adopt a course of dishonesty and crime. He did hope 'that the Admiralty would look closely to the 10-gun brigs, for he considered them to be perfectly valueless. It was true the Admiralty, in disposing of them, endea voured to- make the most of them—(A laugh)—for, although they demanded 1000 E for each, they could not get more than 5001. for any one of them. Sir JAMES COCKBURN, in reply to the question 'which had been pat to him respecting the employment of the officers of her Majesty's navy in collecting the poor-rates, said that if any officer went to collect - them he certainly misunderstood his instructions. The only object was that wherever along the coast disturb ance or excitement prevailed the fleet was stationed, and its presence. in the neighbourhood where those rates were being collected might have led to the surmise. However, if he could find out an officer who did so, an investigation would at once be entered into upon the subject. With regard to steam-boats generally, the present administration of the Admiralty were doing all they could to improve them, and they were endeavour ing to find out what construction might prove to be the best. , He believed that after all that had been said they could turn out a better set of steam-boats than could be turned out on the other side. With respect to the dis • charging - of boys when the ships were paid off, he could only say, that the service.required that a certain amount of men must be kept up. But he would be very glad to retain the boys, if his Right Hon. Friend the Chan cellor of the Exchequer would allow it.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He thought that it was very useful 'that men who had entered into her Majesty's service for a certain term should go round to the merchant service, and come back again when wanted into the navy. That course of circulation provided the merchant service with good men, whom the Government would have, back again whenever they were wanted. However, tied as the Admiralty was, it could not do otherwise in respect to the boys. As to the captains' clerks, he had never heard any complaints from them, and he was sure tfiat if there were any grounds of com plaint they wouldiiive been preferred before the CT)a- ARMY ESTIMATES. Sir .11. HARDINGE stated, in answer to Captain Pechell, that he intended to move the Army Estimates the first thing oniMonday. LIBRARY. COMMITTEE. On the wtion of Mr. GREENE, the Library Com rn4,ttee was, appointed. The - other orders of the day having been disposed of, the House adjourned, at One o'Clock, till Monday. ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE. HOME ClRCUlT._Hertford, March 1. CROWN COURT.—The Rev. James Brogden surren dered to answer an indictment, charging him with felo niously,discharging a loaded gun at Cornelius Wintle, with intent to disfigure him. In another count the pri soner's intent was laid to be, to maim and disable the prosecutor, or to do him some grievous bodily harm. Mr. Ryland and Mr. Rodwell conducted the prosecu tion. Tile prisoner was defended, by Mr. Montagu Chambers, Mr. Lydekker, and the Hon. Robt. Grimston. Mr. RYLAND addressed the jury, and said the prisoner was charged with one of the most serious offences, and under circumstances which demanded, and he was sure would no doubt receive, their most serious consideration. The prisoner was charged with the offence of shooting at the prosecutor, and the real question was, with what in tent that act was committed. The nominal prosecutor was a constable of the Ilerts constabulary, but the real Prosecutor was Captain Robertson, the head of the police force, who acted under the orders of the magistrates. The prisoner was a clergyman of the. Church of Eng land, and he was bound to say that up to that time he was universally esteemed and respected, and he (the Learned Counsel) could assure them that he appeared on the present occasion to prosecute him under feelings of very considerable pain and reluctance. The Learned Counsel then proceeded to state the circumstances under which the charge was made against the prisoner, and which will be better understood by the evidence. At the same time he observed, that he felt it to be his duty to state that there was not the slightest evidence of any ,ill feeling being entertained by the prisoner against the prosecutor, but rather the contrary ; and, he added that after the occurrence it was only due to the prisoner to say, that he had done all in his power to alleviate the pain and injury sustained - by the prosecutor. The real,fact appeared to be that the prisoner, feeling some alarm, and imagining that thieves were upon the pre mises, .had discharged the gun at a person whom he supposed intended to injure him either in his person or property. The Learned Counsel then proceeded to make some further remarks to the jury, and observed that if any difficulty should arise as to the law, that would be, no doubt, reserved by his Lordship for the consideration of the Judges.—The following evidence was then adduced:— Cornelius Wintle examined by Mr. RODWELL—I am one of the Herts constabulary, and on the 31st of De cember last I was on duty at Childwick-green, near St. Alban's, about one o'clock in the morning. At that time I was near the prisoner's house, and I heard two sepa rate reports of fire-arms, almost together, and this in duced me to turn round and run back to the house. When I got to a poplar tree by the side of the road, about ten or a dozen yards from Mr. Brogden's yard gate, I received the contents of a gun in my head, eyes, and different other parts of my body. I dropped immediately in the road, and lay senseless for some time. It was a moonlight night. In a short time I put my hand to my head and found it covered with blood, and I called out that I was shot. I then heard Mr. Brogden say—"Oh, my God there is some one shot." Shortly after this I saw George, Mr. Brogden's butler, and several females, and the prisoner said to me Why did you not answer when I called out to you ?' I told him I did not hear him. The prisoner then asked me why I did not show my light as I had promised to do,:and I said that I had promised to show my light if I was on his premises at any time when he opened the window, but at this time I was on the road. I also :told him that it was such a light night that he could see a man on the high road a quarter of a mile off. It was both moonlight and star light. I should say that the place where I was standing at the time I was shot, could be easily seen from the house. Mr. Brogden, the prisoner, immediately sent for a doctor, and rendered me every assistance. Cross-examined by Mr. CHAMBERS—The prisoner has lived in this house about four months, and when he first came there was some conversation about the dan gerous position of the house, and it was then arranged that I should show my light whenever I was upon his premises. Mr. CHAMBERS—Was anything said about the housl being lonely ? Mr. Baron ALDERSON—How can that be material i If he believed the constable was a thief be bad no right to shoot him. Cross-examination continued—The road in question leads to two other houses besides Mr. Brogden's, and from thence to the fields. The shots to have struck me must have passed over a wall, but not near the place where there is a good deal of ivy. I had a lighted lantern with me. Sarah Woodbone, examined by Mr. RYLAND—On Saturday, the 30th Of December, I was in Mr. Brogden's house, in attendance upon Mrs. Brogden, who wai3 within three days of her confinement. After I had re turned to bed, I was disturbed in the night by a noise as if something was knocking at the yard gate, and the dogs upon the premises barked very much. I got up and looked out of my window into the lane at the sid of the house. Mr. Brogden's room was next to min . I could not see anything, because it was such a dar night. Soon afterwards I heard the noise again, and I went to the window and rapped at it, thinking 1 that if it was the policeman he would show his light, but I did not see anything, and I then went to Mt. Brogden's room, and he told me to open the staircase window looking into the yard, but Mr. Brogden even tually did so himself. From that window you can seie the poplar tree. The prisoner looked out of the windoW and said, " Who is there ? who is there ?" There was no answer, and the prisoner then said, " You had better li stand off," and immediately fired his gun out of t "e window. He brought a double baftelled gun from h s bed-room, and he discharged both barrels out f the window. The prisoner went away telling irle to watch if I could see any body. I looked out Of the window but could not see any thing. I could not observe the poplar tree. The prisoner was away long enough to re-load the gun, and when he came back he again called out twice, and then fired in the direction of the cottage as it appeared to me, and after he had fired, I heard a man groan, and Mr. Brogatin immediately exclaimed, " Ohl there is somebody shot" and he appeared very much surprised and agitated. The house was immediately alarmed, and the prisoner and all the servants, and also Mrs. Brogden, went out, and the prisoner was assisted into the house. Mr. Brogden asked the policeman why he diamot answer when he ealled out to him, and the policeman replied that he did think he would have shot off the premises. George Rutherford was then called, in order that the prisoner's counsel might have an opportunity of cross examining him. In answer to questions from Mr. Cham bers, he said the night was so dark that he could not 80 the policeman or tell who he was until he got close Op to him and found him lying upon the ground. Isaac Rye, a superintendent of police, deposed that he was sent for to Mr. Brogden's house after the occurrence, and saw the prisoner who called him to him and asked him to go up stairs with him. He then showed him the pqr sonage window, and told him that he heard some persons about his premises, and he called out to them and firedm the direction of the poplar tree, and not hearing any one answer he reloaded his gun, and then returned to the window, and called out again three times "Who 'is there?" He then said he thought he heard footsteps, and he fired in the direction of the cottage and the poplar tree, and soon afterwatds he heard the moans'of some person who was wounded. Mr. Brogden then brought him the gun, which he now produced. It was very dark at the time witness went, and he had not ob served that the moon gave any light in the early part l of the evening; if there had been light sufficient to observe objects it would be possible to see the poplar tree from the window in question. Mr. Robert Clarke, a surgeon at St. Alban's, deposed that he examined the person of the prosecutor, and found - that he was wounded on the head, both thighs and ab ilomen. The wounds were not in themselves dangerous, but might have proved so in their results. Cross-examined—Mr. Brogden constantly expressed the greatest anxiety about the prosecutor. Mr. RYLAND said this was the case for the prosecution. Mr. BARON ALDERSON expressed his opinion, that there was no case to go before thejury. It appeared that the prisoner had fired a gun out of a window in the dark, and there was not the slightest proof that he saw any one, much less that he intended to shoot any one. If Mr. Brogden had intended to shoot the person he fired at, he would have said, " I have hit him," and not have said, " Good God, there is a man shot." The jury considered for a short time, when the fore man said they were unanimously of opinion that Mr. Brogden did not intend to shoot at any one when he fired the gun. Mr. Baron ALDERSON said he quite concurred in the opinion of the jury, and then addressing Mr. Brogden said—" I hope, Mr. Brogden,you will be more careful in future; it was a very incautious act, but I entirely acquit you of an intention to injure any person." The Rev. Gentleman then came upon the Bench, and was warmly greeted by his friends, amongst whom were the Earl of Verulam, Viscount Grimston, M.P., Lord John Manners, M.P., the Bishop of Herefo rd, the Dean of Ely, Archdeacon Thorpe, Rev. Dr. Wordsworth, of Harrow, Rev. Dr. Nicholson, and T. H. Gape, Esq., all of whom were in attendance to bear testimony to the general humanity and kindness of Mr. Brogden. A verdict of Not Guilty was then recorded, and Mr. Brogden was ordered to be immediately set at liberty. ' To be imprisoned for eight calendar months. Wiffiam Smart and Charles Gorley were indicted for *at tempting to discharge loaded fire-arms at one William with intent to prevent the lawful apprehension of Cherie. Shipley. The prisoners and Shipley were shooting in it rabbit warren in the occupation of the prosecutor, who, -with IWO • persons besides himself, on horseback, and three on foot, went inpursuit of them. yOn the approach of the pursuers orieTirthO - prisoners told the other to load his gun. This wan • done; and some threatening bravado took place on the part of the prisoners, with the view, apparently, of deterring the prosecutor and his companions from following them. The party were, however, pressed on pretty closely; and the pro secutor was abont seizing Shipley, when the prisoner Gorley, pointed his gun towards him. The gun went off, having re ceived at the moment a blow from a stick, doing, however, no damage to any one. Whetherprisoner had actually pullet the trigger did not exactly appear. The poachers were then overpowered and treated with considerable violence. Mr. Wilkins addressed the jury for the defence, contend ing that the gun went off by accident, in consequence of the blow of the stick, and that the prisoner had no intention of firing at the prosecutor. Verdict—Net Guilty. POLICE INTELLIGENCE. (YESTERDAY.) CLERKENIVELL. John Dobey Pollard, a solicitor, residing at Bowling Green lane, King-street, Borough, and Marsh-gate, Lambeth, was placed in the felons' dock, charged witlfstabbing Mr. 11. Hen worthy, a reporter, residing in Camden Town. The prosecutor deposed that on the previous evening he met the prisoner in a public-house, where they fell into con versation, and had some refreshments together. They left the house, and in Holborn the prisoner, who was intoxicated, behaved in so strange a manner that a large mob gathered round him. Witness, conceiving he was a respectable man, induced him to accompany witness into Warwick -court to avoid the crowd. The prisoner then struck him, and witness having been informed that Mr. Pollard was known at the Lion public-house, Jockey-steps, Holborn, accompanies him thither. The prisoner sat down on a stool, within a few feet of the bar, which witness was standing at, with his back against it, when the pri soner suddenly made a thrust of an open pocket knife at the lower part of his abdomen. Witness bent his body se. as to avoid his thrust, but the blade pierced through all his dress, and inflicted a slight puncture on the flesh. Witness had given the prisoner no provocation whatever, was per fectly sober, and had never seen him before that day. If he had not stooped he believed the stab would have been of a very serious nature. The prisoner threatened to " pepper" witness at the station-house. - Mr. Joseph Hearne, a reporter, residing in Nerth-street,. Pentonville confirmed the above testimony. The knife was produced; it had a large dagger-pointed blade, and was a very formidable weapon. The prosecutor proposed that the matter might be suffered to proceed no further, if the prisoner would place a few pounds in the poor-box. Mr. COMBE declined to listen to any proposal of the kind„. and the prisoner was committed for trial to the Old Bailey. THE WILLS _FORGERIES.. MANSION-HOUSE. (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) Mr. Goodman (the chief clerk to the Lord Mayor) began, as s i as it was intimated to the prisoners that they were to be again brought up, in consequence of the application of the Learned Counsel for Barber, on the 23d instant, to read over the depositions , in the several cases. Fletcher paid the most intense attention to the entire of the evidence, but left the whole management of his case to Mr. Humphries, his solicitor. Barber occasionally wrote as Mr.. Goodman proceeded, and communicated with Mr. Parry, who was understood to be in attendance as the representative of Mr. Chambers, the barrister employed in the early stages of' the proceedings for that prisoner. The case in which Mary Hunt was alleged to have been perionated for the purposes of fraud, was the first upon which the depositions were sworn to and signed. The depositions in the case in which Eliza Burchard was alleged to have been personated by Mrs. Dorey, at that time Georgiana Richards, were the next read over, sworn to and signed by the several witnesses, and in neither case was any comment made by the prisoners or those who attended for them. In the case in which John Stewart was alleged to have been personated, when Mr. Goodman arrived at the evidence of Mr. Pott, of Doctors' Commons, Mr. Pott expressed a wish that the following words should be added to the evidence he had given upon his examinatio.ri relative to the prisoner Griffin :—" Griffin said, in his state— ment, that the affidavit had not been read over to him, or if it had been read over to him he did not understand the nature of it. Now I declare that it was read . over to him,. twice at least, and the draft of the affidavit is now in the hands of Mr. Freshfield, with the word " approve' upon it, and signed T. Griffin."' The witness stated that the addi tion of these words would prevent the continuance of a mis apprehension as to the evidence he had given. He had, in fact, received several communications upon the subject. ' Mr. Humphries—l think it necessary (seeing, as I do, in what character Griffin is to be a party) that the state ment now made by Mr. Pott should be added to his deposi tion. It refers to a statement made by Griffin to Mr. Weir, and deposed to by Mr. Weir on a former day. The LORD MAYOR directed that the addition made by Mr. Pott should be added to the deposition of that gentleman, and expressed a hope that publicity should be given to it. Mr. Humphries asked the witness whether the draft of the affidavit had been read over to Griffin ? Mr. Pott—l have no doubt at all that the draft was read over to him by my clerk; but I can only swear as to the original having been read over to him. When Mr. Goodman read the deposition in the case in which the property of Anne Slack was alleged to have been drawn out of the hands of the Commissioners for the Reduc tion of the National Debt, by means of a fabricated will, signed " Emma Slack," Mr. Humphries said he observed that the evidence of Miss Slack was stated in the depositions to have been taken in the presence Of the prisoners. Now such was not the cue. The evidence of Miss Slack was taken when in facV nobody was in custody but Mr. Barber. He noticed theAflicC not to put it forward as an objection, but to show the propriety of adopting the course recommended by the Judges to have the words taken down at the moment from the mouths of wit nessess in every case. Mr. Goodman wished that it never became necessary to depart from such a course, but in some cases the system was impracticable. Mr. Humphries—The departure is an evil in the opinion of the first authorities. The depositions of all the witnesses examined, with the exception of Cuckson and his daughter, in the case desig nated the case of John Stewart, having been read, sworn to, and signed, Mr. Weir (of Messrs. Freshfield's house) stated that these two witnesses would, no doubt, reach town in the course of the day, and would attend upon his Lordship at the moment of their arrival, in order to be formally sworn to their state ments. The Lot". MAYOR—I shall most willingly attend at the Giltspur-street Compter. The following is an account of the sums of money stated to have been obtained by means of the wills alleged to have been forged upon the evidence which has already appeared in detail before the public : IN THE CASE OF ANNE SLACK-3,500/. Consols; 1,151/. Ss. 10d. dividend. _ THE 6AFIEOF ELIZA BURCHARD--300i. Consols ; 162/. dividend-7001. Three-and-a-Half Reduced ; 446/. ss. dividend. IN THE CASE OF JOHN STEwART-511. per annum Long Annuities ; 7391..105. dividend. IN THE CASE OF MARY HUNT-1,210 Consols; 4351. 12s. dividend. It. has been stated in some of the newspapers that a clerk in the Bank of England had been discovered to have been an accomplice in these transactions, and that he had made com munications which completely involved Barber in the guilt of forging the wills. The report, as far as regards evidence affecting Barber, is incorrect. There has been no statement made, we are given to understand, by any person in the establishment relative to the participation of Barber beyond that with which the public has been made acquainted through the medium of the press, at the several examinations which have taken place. It is true, however, that a clerk in the Bank has acknowledged that he had supplied the prisoner Fletcher with information from the Bank books as to the amounts, and other particulars, in every one of the cases on which the prisoners are to be committed. It is understood that time individual we allude to gave the information to Fletcher corruptly, but it is understood that he was not at all cognizant of the object of Fletcher, which was not, as he con jectured, to find out the existing representatives of deceased parties, but to create representatives by false wills and false personations. Some statements have been also made relative to Mrs. Dorey, which it is necessary to notice. Pitragraphs have appeared, representing that she made a confession of all the circumstances in the transactions in which she has been charged with having been concerned, several days ago. She has made a statement, which she declares to be correct, but it certainly was not made until Thursday, the'day laefore the examination, included in the above account. The pFticu" lars of her statement are kept strictly private. One circum stance, however, we believe, has appeared in the midst of her representations. In the case of Eliza Burchard, whom she represented, when she went to perform her part in that piece, she found upon entering the room that everything had been put in a state of complete preparation by Barber and Fletcher. We are not aware what degree of credit is at tached to the communications which she has made, but it is very currently reported that she had previously expressed great anxiety to make statements, and that they were found to have been concocted in such a manner as showed that her only object was to serve herself. It will be remembered that Mr. Freshfield stated on a former occasion, that where a party impugned the transfer by the Commissioner for the Reduction of the National Debt of stock to another party, a duty was imposed by Act of Parliament on the party defrauded to follow the person who wrongfully obtained the money as well as the money itself, and that Mr. Baxter, the solicitor of Miss Slack, was pre paring a bill in Chancery for that purpose. We understand that a bill was yesterday accordingly filed in the Court of Chancery by Miss Slack, claiming the two sums of 1,000/. and 3001. secured to Fletcher as the deposit notes of the London and Westminster Bank, referred to in the depositions of the 10th and 13th April, 1843, and which sums have been placed as part of the proceeds of the forgeries with winch Fletcher and the other parties stand charged. TEE UNITED SERVICE MAGAZINE FOR MARCH.— Among the many interesting papers to be found in the pre sent Number of the United Service Magazine, the most at tractive is undoubtedly Captain Postans " Reminiscences of Biluchi and Brahoi Campaigns in Upper Sindh and Cutchi, during 1839 and 1840." This narrative, written from per sonal observation, by a gentleman lately holding both mili tary and official appointments in the country he describes, contains much interesting information respecting that sin gular people, the Beloochees and their Chiefs, not hitherto made public, in a graphic notice of many stirring adventures that preceded the subjection of their celebrated leader Bijar Khan. By such as are desirous of learning the character of the inhabitants of the recent acquisition to our empire in India, this paper cannot fail of being read with unusual inte rest; and to both professional and non-professional readers, the March Number of the Magazine of which - it forms one feature will be found more than usually replete with enter tainment. [ADVERTISEMENT.] —A CERTAIN REMEDY FOR ILL ethAlreeqlnifujeTheea roaching the te rm lIEALrit BY HOLLOWAY'S Piu.s.—Mrs. Long, residing in Morrow-street, Walwortlw had been for three, years .in a very declining state of health, owing to that period, the turn of life. Her constitution appeared to. g to that and was considered as fast approaching a eons p h e igaimhe:ttelrolfi te remedy.healthl9. approachinBonl TKis eff ffl eCt Odi li te would pills. restored to a very res. s b h y e t i h s es u rin; h al ow ua ev bl e e r, c th ri a t t ica s l ue p h er t od dan wo g u e l m d us fin ag d rgivaluable to all young _ pe rsons 1 1% , . _. woinanhood.—Sold at Professor o may a estabtish. ( i,t; 244, Strand (where advice may be had gratis) ; also Irby. . almost all respectable Medicine Venders 1 thxousheut the civalised world. , ‘, 11,.. .1•,, :.., . , t:111 , amtf):::);) f.,117 i.:;iiy..: i iii4.l..tusik:, .1. 7,.i .i.4W Llat. isii NORTHERN ClRCUlT.—Carlisle, Feb. 29 (Before Mr. Justice COLTMAN.) Walter Graham, the younger, aged 23, and John Hornsby, aged 20, were indicted for stealing_ a quantity of yarn, the property of W. B. Proctor, Walter Graham bemg at the time servant to the said W. B. Proctor. • r,r Graham, who was well and somewhat stylishly dressed, but whose appearance betokened early dissipation, had been foreman to Mr. Proctor, who is a sail-cloth manufacturer in this town, and the other prisoner carried on , in a small way , a similar business to that of Mr. Proctor. His LORDSHIP having summed up, the Jury retired for a short time, and returned into Court with a verdict of Guilty against both.—To be transported for seven years. (Before Mr. Baron ROLFE.) Isaac Angus was indicted for cutting and wounding Wm. Sterling, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm. The prosecutor was a police-officer, and, seeing the pri soner quarrelling with another man, interfered for the pur pose of putting an end to the affray. Though an officer, he had not at the time the dress of an officer upon him, and the prisoner resenting his interference, a struggle took place, in the course of which both fell several times. The prisoner then endeavoured to make his escape, and in doing so threw something at the prosecutor, what it was did not precisely appear, which cut him severely on the head. His LORDSHIP having summed up, the jury found the pri. sonewilty of a common assault. - ~,,: S . ~l 1.