The Sun. — London, England, 1844-06-04 00:00:00

ANTI-SLAVERY SOCIETY-THE FREE TRADE QUESTION. (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) Mr. SnITH, of Sheffield, rose to address the meeting. If he could have pinned his faith upon any set of men, it would have been upon his friends on the platform; but, having carefully considered the subject, he had come to a diametri cally opposite conclusion. This question involved the exer cise of the right of private judgment. The question was as to the best mode of carrying out the anti-slavery . prin ciple. The adopting Decal regalation,s_involved the principle of applying to Government to inflict a pecuniary penalty ; upon than who differed with them in opinion. They had' no right to do this. He held it was not the best course for any-philanthropic body to apply to Government to carry out its views. The society which sought such aid fettered their operations and became mixed up with political parties. Where .was .the principle to end? Was it the province of Government to interfere in this way ? No I They had too much Government meddling already. If they had a right to go to Government to carry out their views, so had any other body a right to ask for the imposition of a tax to carry out their views. They were establishing a dangerous precedent, and by thus acting they were placing the anti-slavery principle at issue with other great principles.—(Cheers.) Free trade was phi lanthropy upon its noblest basis. It was said it was a diffi cult thing to ask Government to maintain existing duties and to impose fresh duties. The principle was the same. He denied the existence of any such distinction as that now sought to be established.—(Hear.) He did not hesitate to say that if they succeeded tin their non-intercourse with Brazil, they would inflict upon the population of Sheffield and Manchester a degree of suffering of which they had no idea. Sheffield was reduced almost to a state of desolation by these fiscal regulations. If they ceased to buy, they must cease to sell, and by re fusing to buy Brazilian sugar they tied up the hands of the Sheffield workman, and prevented him earning his living by his labour. These men thought the sympathies of the Society should not be carried to the other side of the water only. They demanded their sympathy—not their alms, hut their assistance—to enable them to earn their own living. He considered that their plan was ineffectual for the suppression of slavery in the Brazils, be cause nothing was more delusive than certificates of origin. • They would continually have forged certificates, and a re gular system would arise of defeating the law. Now, accord ing to our treaty with America, we should be bound to take the slave-grown sugar of Louisiana on the most favourable terms. It was true that Louisiana did not produce more than enough for its own consumption; but Cuba sugar might be imported into Louisiana, and the whole of the Louis iana sugar might find its way into this country. Wouldyou take stolen goods? it was said. He knew no difference be tween the receiver and the thief; and he could not make any difference between the man who took Ruseian tallow, know ing that it was purchased by Brazilian sugar, or he who wore American cotton and the man who received Brazilian sugar directly. But then it was admitted that all that was wrong; but they wishectnot to do any more wrong. Let them first take the mote out of their own eye before they attempted to take the beam out of their brother's eye. They were not in a position to go to the Government and ask them to impose a pecuniary line upon those who differed with them in opinion. Ile should therefore move, as an amendment, that the clause in question be annulled. Mr. JOHN' BRIGHT, M.P., rose to second the amend meat. It would be observed that with respect to this question there were many points on which they were agreed. They were all agreed in opi n i on as t o their detestation of the horrors of slavery and the slave trade. They were all agreed that prima facie it would be better to have a free impor tation of sugar and of every other commodity. It would be admitted that freedom of trade conduced to maintain the peace of the world, and that restriction produced first the war of tariffs, and then the war of force; but it was said that - this "was an exception. .If they refused to hold intercourse with nations holding slaves, they ought also to refuse to hold intercourse with nations committing crimes of other kinds. Now, that was an un tenable principle. If they refused the produce ofßrazil, they should adopt the same rule with respect to Russian and Egyptian produce. The produce of land which was stolen, was as much stolen goods as the produce of labour which was stolen ; therefoye they ought to refuse the produce of our West Indian Island.% and of the United States. He considered the principle absurd, but if they adopted it they should carry it otit. They were told they were increasing national guilt. Who were to be the judges of national guilt? He denied that We were increasing national guilt, or the right of any body' of men to call on the Government to interfere to make them nationally moral in that respect. Everybsdy was anxius to seal more of our cutlery to Brazil. We exported large quaiMties of goods to the Brazils, and received in return sugar, a portion of which was . refined. In bond, and a portion taken to foreign countries. Our ships took sugar from Brazil to Russia, and pureliakd leather, and tallow, and flax, and brought them.to this code try. Did not the gentleman, therefore, who lit his candle, or wore his shoes, or put on his shirt, incur the same amount of guilt as if he used Brazilian sugar?—(Loud cheerk) 'There was no guilt in either. Then came the question of the stimulus to the slave trade. Now he did not admit that the total abolition of all discriminating duties would stimulate slavery, although he was willing to admit it for the salve of argument. The Committee admitted that they:petitioned go vernment in favour of the admission of free-labour sugar. Now that would give quite as great a stimulus to slavery .as the admission of all su g ar, without. distinction. There was no, essential difference between the effect on slavery of the pro position made by the Committee and that of the free traders. The free-labour sugar of Java was in the markets of the world competing with Brazilian sugar, and selling at the Name price. It was absurd to say that ours was a better market than any other—we did not give a higher price th n any other parties; it was clear that the price here must be e gukited by that abroad. The 'free-labour sugar whi h now went to Germany would come here, and its pl e there would be supplied by slave-labour sugar. W h regard to Lousianian sugar it should be remember d, that every Lousianian planter exporting a hogshead ,of sugar was entitled to receive n hogshead of Cuba sugar free e.t . duty; that would set free the whole of the Louisianian s pdgar, which we were bound to take by treaty at the low4st r ate of duty. Let them see the argument which they wire giving to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a planter, a d the President - of the Board of Trade, a planter; they w e. giving them every inducement to continue slavery in bra 11; in order to keep up their own monopoly, which would of . coarse fall whenever slavery should fall in the' Brazi s. They made the Government odious abroad. The Braz Is knew that the Government Was not sincere, and . therefore th y viewed them in the light of hypocrites. It was no light nat ter far the Committee to weaken the exertions of. the frien - of the antl-slavery cause in this country, by dividing it up a this question. It . was giving a weapon to . monopoly, a d monopoly was but a milder form of slavery. They w e abetting a crime of precisely the same nature as that whi h they warred against, although it might not come ie so hi/ - t, was a form. At the late meeting there was manifested a strong feeling in favour of the abrogation of that Chaise ; a d the Committee should recollect, that however Conscientiokis and honest might be their scruples, those scruples were of participated in by the bulk of those classes who had beetle e vary backbond Of the anti-slavery movement in this count ie . They had no right to inflict upon the pporer clases of "t is ti , country the sufferings which they were inflicting on them y the course they were pursuing. If they persisted in carrying. cut this must unreasonable proposition there was scarcely an lndividnal . in - the counties .of York or Lancaster who could give the Society his cordial support. Throughout the king dom there was a difference of opinion with the Cordmitt e. It was not essential, and why, therefore, should they obs i- I r ately adhere to it. He was sorry to hear from Joseph Jo n! Gurney, 'as be had from others, ' that they would with draw - unless 'this resolutiOn were' carried. He doubted whether the present was the sort of meeting .'n which the question ought to be discussed. The question h d been carried by a large majority in EXeter Hall against t e resolution. The 'Govertiment were making use of the Com mittee as their tools merely—had no ' sort of affection for them—and would throw them off' as soon as it' might suit their purpose. Mr. LEFE.OIr considerecl that the admission of slavio labour sugar would' 'area. ' the repeal of all 1t e r laWs which th ey h a d pass e d for the abolition of slave . Mr. Bright said that this matter would interfere with t e commercial policy of the country ; but if that . n gentleman thought so,ssurely the' best means would 'be to apply fort a' remedy for this evil to the Legislature, add not impede tr t e great Christian movement fohe abolition tree e. I I ale would trouble the meeti ng no further than by protesti g ' strongly against any measure' that would present any obst lion to the negotiations which the Society might enter intd with . the Government.—(Cheers.) - 1 A king discussion here rose upon the proposition of ad journing' the meeting until four o'clock, which was supported by Mr. George Thompson, Mr. Bright, and the majority of the meeting, and' eventually carried. The meeting resumed at half-past three o'clock,. although it was understood to have bean adjourned for an hour from three o'cloCk. After a few words from Mr. J. STURGE, in support of the original motion, Captain STUART contended that commercial slavery would not exist without there were consumers of the save-grown articles, who acted as employers of the slave traders. He entreated the meeting to disregard what had fallen from Mr. Thompson, and recollect the final account they would have to render of their conduct in encouraging slavery. The CRAIRMAIC put the amendment, when only seven hands were - held up in its favour. He next put the original motion, in favour of which 82 persons voted. After - the Chairman deolared the original "Motion to be 'carried, a vote of-thanks was passed to him, and the meet -fitg 'separattd. SPIRIT of the PUBLIC JOURNALS. FROM THE EVENING PAPERS OF YESTERDAY. • GLOBE.—The prison doors have closed upon - O'Connell, and upon those who took a prominent part with him in the repeal agitation. Pending the decision of the House of Lords on the writ of error which is to come immediately before it—and which may even pronounce illegal the very judgment by which the parties are suffering—it might be deemed impertinent, if not presumptuous, in us to raise an argument upon the points which await the deci sion of such a tribunal. The attention of the legal profession in both countries will be fastened upon the proceedings in error ; and the people of those countries, but especially those of Ireland, will await, with breathless anxiety, the decision which will reverse, or affirm, the judg ment pronounced by the Court of Queen's Bench in that country. The doubt that still rests on the legal validity of the proceedings in no respect diminishes the responsibility of the Government to public opinion, nor exonerates it from the censure which it has justly incurred by the prosecution. The former is solemn ; the latter Is severe. At no period of the agitation whence the Government affected to apprehend danger—which, had it really felt, would have led to an earlier. interference with the " monster meetings"—was the peace of Ireland so fearfully perilled as when O'Connell was conducted from the bar of the Court to the prison to which he, with his coadjutors, was doomed for taking part in those meetings. Whether the law was really stretched beyond its due limits to reach the leaders of the Re peal movement, or whether it was merely extended to its utmost length, in order that it might reach them, we will not now argue. One thing is certain—the ingenuity of the most skilful sophists has been tried, and has not pre vailed, to mystify the long-delayed interference of the Go vernment,or to avert the conclusion which flows from it. The meetings were spread over a period of several months. They amounted to forty-nine in number. No interference on the part of the Executive gave notice of any apprehension of dan ger to the public peace, or of desire on the part of the autho rities that they should be discontinued. The legality of the object for which the meetings were held was admitted. The constitutional right of meeting was unquestioned, and un questionable. If the mere question of numbers diminished or vitiated ,the right, the Government was bound to ad monish, to warn, and—if in its dscretion it thought pro per to proceed to that extent—te prohibit, the meetings. Not a single breach of the peace had occurred at or had arisen out of, any one of the numerous meetings. No sooner did the authorities intimate their will and pleasure that the "monster meetings" should cease to be held, and is sued a proclamation to that effect, than it was obeyed. With a promptitude that deserves to be mentioned to his honour— with an earnestness which attested his anxiety, O'Connell exhorted and commanded the masses over whom he ex exercised an absolute control, to return every man to his own home. The implicit obedience yielded to the proclama tion, by which the Clontarf meeting was prevented, is the best possible proof that had a similar interference on the part of the Government been deemed necessary at an earlier period, a similar submission to the constituted au thorities would have been shown. The public tranquillity was placed in much more peril by the imprudent, if not preconcerted, lateness of the hour at which the procla mation was issued—allowing of scarcely an opportunity of preventing the coming multitudes from reaching the ap pointed rendezvous—than by any or even all the meetings that had preceded it. Whatever had been the calamitous consequences of an accidental collision between the military and a part of the people, coming—as they had been wont to come, without expectation of interruption, and with out intention of harm—the Government would have been the direct occasion of the calamity. Not a single overt act alleged against O'Connell, in support of the conspiracy chargo upon him and his coadjutors, bears so suspicious an appearance as the issuing of the proclamation, at the late hour at which it appeared, does against the Irish Government. But for the promptitude andenergy with which its manifest ten dencies were counteracted by the address that O'Connell drew up, printed, and dispersed among the multitudes when on - their way, to the meeting, the plains of Clontarf might have bercome an Aceldama, and the history of that day's doings have been Written in blood. On the head of the Government theist rest the blame of the long-continued agitation. History will pronounce upon the character of the policy by which the Government has sought to sustain itself in Ireland, it the immediate consequences of that policy do not show how ill suited were its measures to establish order among its inhabitants. . STANDARD.—The debate of Friday.night suggests two considerations. First, whether it is proper to protect public worship from outrage by offences less than breach of the peace. Secondly, whether better and cheaper tribunals for causes testamentary than the ecclesiastical courts can be found, for it will not be enough to show that those courts haVe faults, except some means of amending these faults be proposed, and some better courts substituted. Now, with reference to the fii•st point, it will not be disputed th a t p u bli c worship may be scandalised and interrupted by many things short . ofbreach of the peace, by many things that constitute no common law offence. Is there to be no protection against such scandals and offences, or if it is proposed to guard against them, will it be quite safe to enlarge the present juris diction of the lay tribunals, as to the construction of what is decorous or indecorous in public worship—to refer the matter, fel. exam-dc, to police magistrates. We ver y muc h d ou bt whether this would be a step in furore= libertatis. As to the causes testamentary, We know not what tribunal can be substi tuted for .the ecclesiastical courts in such cases, except the courts of equity. Causes testamentary are precisely of that kind which the ordinary tribunals of the country cannot entertain, because they have not the necessary machinery, and are, in all respects, framed with a view to the litigation : - "Of - a different kind of. questions. Everything, in fact, to be properly the object of a common-law suit, must be reduced to one or more distinct definite issues, whether of law, or of fact, or of both ; bat testamenta r y causes cannot be re duced to 'such distinct issue or issues. Even. were wills always written in strict legal language, which they are not, they give rise to a multitude of contingent and complicated questions, which can be dealt with , only by a process analogens to that of the Roman law, and of courts of equity. Abolish the jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts in testamentary cases, and you send every will cause to London to be made the subject of a Chan ce ry su it. That is, at the very time .when you are bringing 'the c om mon l aw home to every 'man's .door by the establishment of local courts, you d.estroy thirty-five local courts of equity in order to Centralise the subject of their jurrisdietion in LoMEM, at an enormous addition of expense to the unhappy parties ; compelled to. resort to them. Does' not this look very like folly and contradiction? One word upon the question of costs: Why are the costs se heavy ? The. Legislature' has abandoned its charges upon suitors, 'by the remission of stamp duties ; the judges, .we believe, are seriously .desirnus to. reduce the amount of costs ; the bar haS Surrendered a great deal of its profits ; still costs have undergone no sensible diminution, if they have not rather increased. This is a riddle which we believe every unprofessionalpan wishes to see solved, but which, as we have reason to inow, even eminent lawyers cannot solve. The late Chief Baron Abinger having, about two or three years ago, declared from the bench, that it was impossible to run up the . costs of writ, declaration, and interlocutory judgement beyond five pounds, a friend, the protector of a poor man persecuted by a shark, assured the Noble MANI; whom he met the next day at dinner, that these costs had been, in a very simple case, run up to ten pounds. Lord Abinger .expressed his disbelief. On ..a subsequent day, however, the bill of casts, regularly taxed at 10/. Ils. 4d., was presented to him : he examined the items, shook his head, and came to the conclusion that until the whole system Of costs is changed, so as to make excessive charges penal, the Legislature and the Bench must labour in vain. POLICE INTELLIGENCE. .(YESTERDAY.) _ CLE,RKEN WELL. • . Elias Bucey, a carver and gilder, residing at 15, Suffolk-street, Camden-town, and Mary Crawley, of 31, Easton-street, Wilmington-square, were charged with having been drunk and fighting on the previous night, at 20, Lloyd-square, the residence of Mr. Tindal, late churchwarden of Clerkenwell parish. The male prisoner's face was covered with blood and bruised, the hair of the female was dishevelled, and both presented abundant evidence of having been engaged in recent conflict. After as few words from Mr. ALEXANDER, • • 'Mr. Tindal and his family having gone to the country, Mr. G. Tnosersoar said he felt assured that slavery, in its the 'servant, Mary Bucey, who was left in care of the moat odious form, existed in the production of other articles place, invited .the prisoner and several o f h er ma l e an d of trade; but they now sought te induce. themeeting to b e-- female acquaintances to, spend the previOa s (S un d ay ) Mere that the Government ought to discriminate the.particu- I evening with her. The party arrived, the bottl e circu lar articles which should be consumed by the great mass of eelY • fated ir, and the fun grew fast and furious—in f ac t, the people. ' lie thought their conduct way 11-some degree .n othilig eoUld exceed the hilarity which prevailed, wh en , inconsistent, for they ,made efforts to do away with the serfdom ,of Rosin, or the g a lling slavery • winch pre in an unpropitious moment, the subject of the I r i s h St ate - vailed in Egypt. But they never protested against come: trials ' and'ethe sentence upon Mr. O'Connell was men inercial relations with.. those. countries. .11e • eensidered tinned. Great difference of opinion p reva il e d. Th all legislation upon this subject. was wrong, because they. male priSoner; bitelced by a'very strong party, contended were only a minority, and consequently, had no right to that the trials were all right, and that the sentence was coerce ' the great majority by legislation- They disclaimed just; but Mrs. Crawley, a daughter.of.",the Green Isle," all appeal to force, yet they sought for the Governmeht thought otherwise, and enforced her opinion in so earnest force, which was nothing more than physical; and lie thought and veherneot a manner, that crowds of people were it was a wicked prostitution of the powers of 6Overnme t to prevent a populatioh, of twenty-six inillionifrom trading _,, i ' • *a appurfltd to the street,' where elrs. Crawley finding her '' ' weapons insufficient, rushed to give striking• attracted to witness the dispute. The.parties at length with the 'Brazils or Cuba. The great ana.ss of the pee e were opposed -to such a .course ;... and they nes r logical committed. power into the . - handS of , Governme t proofs of her sincerity, ._ . Sir any such rnirNse. No justification could be given fbr " And prove her doctrine orthodox , t y l niting : free trade, or preventing the people from purchasi4g- ,• 'f r ' -By divers bruites; blows, and linoeltS." isgare;while there were ,so many other.. slave-a'rown Mr` In fact she belaboured poor Bucey so wofully that were . slave- own , ' ties l'a ins.amptio n in this country. Lie'regretted to hear . some of his friends pronounce those to b new.. fai I,„'sl d floc-' it not for the timely arrival of the police he would have *tionthan Trines, and stiggestod that they should 9 lid lc. o 1 1 e d Wilberforce. •He thougliftliat fot go e t .t, the days of speedily found himself in .a far worse condi, the prisoriersee--The Police . took both parties into • the protection oflibertv and State-, philantrophy the Government Wae " calliti . interfere-'ettstody . . pork to • • with such fiscal regalatioas sialv•O' ' "" 4 ' u- . ' M - BIN A. —W 11prisoners, what have you to say? Mr. r. . GII 3I e , uld tfiscourrige the slare trade.—(Cheers) , • : ' - Bueey—Well, I said O'Connell was the dupe of the Mr. S. 'llowuNG thought that it Was Hut. right attribute lrish to error or sin to others because their conduct f might be, eontratv did'nt think lie was the " cheese." to the .views of the objectors. 'lle .denied that the effect • • t Mrs: Crawley—Yes, I said he was the Liberathur—it weuld'preSs so heavily upon the artisans Of Leeds'a ' manuiticturing towns, as InUl been representeril iarge c , other i was a cowardly - thing to throw wathur on •a dbrowning n "s rat. • I said he had'ut a fair thrial. • f r i en ds, Messrs. nrig,-Itt'and Thompson. Ile could hot uLer sU,del why the minority now-e-suppesing ,it 'te,be a 'ini ecu a t Both antics having finally expressed their regret at _h u e not quite as much right to anneal to the Gove rme j t their misconduct, they were discharged. now as Clarkson had to appeal almost unsupported for the John Harper was charged with having fraudulently abolition of slavery. -- - represented himself as an inspector of police, and with Mr. SAMITEL GURNEY did-not believe that the majority of having assaulted police-constables 0 16' G, and 75 G. the people of England, -if they knew the case thoroughly, The prisoner, a well-dressed, middle aged person, de- - would agree to a free admission of all : deserttions„ of, Scribed himself as a warehousman in Clieripside. sugar. 'He had too high an - idea of the people "uf,ko:lllglrd. Police -constabl e 75 Ge h' b duty ' S , eying een on- in .t. to believe that. The general prosperity of Cuba IN"' kl ,4e ' JOlniTstreet, between eleven d twelve o'clock on the considered be materially .and ratildly increased if slavery previous night, w . as il an f aa ely acosted by the prisoner, were abolished in that country, althclugh some planters and_ whoricemed to . b even persons iniathority there might think otherwise. He recollect the e per ectl sober. The witness did not first ex re ' Y should next allude to the consequences that arose from the free constable by the collar ssPT he used; but he seized the admission of sugar from Brazil and Cuba to this:count,ry. number. He was ''. in insisted on taking down his The measure proposed.to Parliament by Sit R. Peel did not; i ran down Wilderness-row, quietly permitted to do so. lie then in any way emanate from' the anti-slavery party ;at the 1 . . 1 .-row, but soon returned, and with same time he (Mr. Gurney)r would assert' that it would oet having receive( the least provocation, struck 75 G cause the admission of but a very small portion of slaVe- . . on Cie inouth; and when 216 G attempted to stop him, gown sugar, although it might cause some increase aeon.: .he struck that officer a violent blow on the head ; said aumption upon the conthient-orEurope. He 119ped that the" lie was an inspector of police, and defied any constable Anti-Slivery Society would at all times use 'their influence, to ,interfere with him.--He was taken to the police and that influence was great with the' Government, to adopt ' .• Buell measures as would put an end to slavery.—(Hear, hear.) I, , •expressed regret' for his conduct, 'hut Mr - - Ihe prisoner . • 4::rIBT regretted to see so small a meeting. After ' • reflecting upon the matter with much attention he felt bound i gave no explanation of it. . . to say that his conscience com Bed 1 • to fMr' him vote or the . BINGIIAN cautioned him against the repetition of amendment. With respoet to di Pe . • t and told him that for falsely personating an impector sconraging slave-grown pTo- I , duce by abstaining from the use himself to a fine of 10/, or a long, most anxious to adopt auy practical .of It, he for one would be . of police he subjected , of . effect. ticel mode for • it • ' • •' . t' In default the paymcnt of fine carrying into eterm• of imprisOnmen . • Mr. BLAIR said he ecirishlercii.' he was committed to prison for five &FS. .4.tebothe duty Of Go, Nem- with robbing Mr. moat to discriminate between the dishonest . Isabella Bowyer was charged and the honest reran; between the man who raises h' George Taylor of acontaining•B/ purse . is Produce bslave , labour and him who does it by free labour, Y i On Saturday night Mr. Taylor, who lives in 28, Iron- monger-street, St. Luke's, was returning home between eleven and twelve o'clock. The prisoner came up to him in Holborn, and jocosely asked him if he were good na tured ; he took no notice of her, but she walked almost by his side, followed by another female up Liquorpond street, and into Charles-street, Hatton-garden; when he came opposite to a dark gateway there, she, with sudden violence, pushed him into it, and,thrusting her hand into his' pocket, abstracted the purse and immediately ran away with it, She ran to the other female, who at tempted-to hold-the prosecutor, but he burst away from her and finally arrested the prisoner, who had only the empty purse on her person.—Committed for trial. Bartholomew Downey, of No. 2, Brook-court, Holborn, was charged with having been drunk and riotous, and creating a crowd in Holborn Union Workhouse, and 'also with having deserted his wife and family, whereby ' they had become chargeable to the Holborn union. Mr. Wilkes, the overseer, deposed that on the 17th of January the prisoner's wife applied to him for relief, stating that her husband having deserted her, she, with her children, were utterly destitute. He administered out-door relief to them from that time to the present. On the previous evening the prisoner came to the work house drunk. He assaulted Barlow the porter, and by the violence of his conduct attracted a great crowd round the workhouse. Upon further inquiry, and from the prisoner's own admission, it was ascertained that he had never left his family at all, but consumed in idleness the relief meant for his wife and children. Whenever the overseer visited the house. he secreted himself. Mr. BINGHAM regretted to observe that this was becoming a very common practice. A case came before him a short time ago in Worship-street Police-court, in .which the wife who applied for relief to the parochial authorities stated, that her husband had deserted her, and was in Birmingham. She even deposed to the truth of this statement before the magistrate, but it was sub sequently ascertained that the husband was at home all the time, and when the overseer came concealed himself in a. cupboard; where he was ultimately arrested. In this case the parish authorities would do well to prose cute the prisoner at the sessions. Mr. Wilkes promised to do so, and the prisoner was fined 10s., or five days' imprisonment for the assault on the porter. • John Griffiths was fully committed for trial for steal ing a sovereign, the property of Sarah I3ridges, a servant, at the house of Mr. Richardson, a gentleman, residing in Belgrave-terrace, Holloway, in which he was tempo rarily employed as a painter. MARYLEBONE. A young man named Philip Stride was placed at the bar before Mr. Rawlinson upon the following charge:— Hardy, 205 S, deposed that on the previous morning, about eleven o'clock, he saw the prisoner and three of his Companions standing near thebridge at the Camden town station of the London and Birmingham Railway. The prisoner stooped and picked up a ‘ large stone, which he deliberately threw over the wall on to the line, and witness soon afterwards found it lying within four inches of the rail. He went after the prisoner, and took him into custody, when •he denied having thrown any stone, and said he had merely been playing with a ball. Witness produced the stone, which weighed nearly 21bs. Mr. RAWLINSON (to the prisoner)—This is a very serious offence, and one which might have caused the death of parties travelling. What do you mean by such conduct? Prisoner—l didn't throw any stone, Sir ;it was a ball that I had been playing with. - The.constable said there was no ball on the line near the - spot, and he was quite certain that the stone which he bad brought forward for the inspection of the Magis trate was thrown - on the line by the prisoner. Mr. RawLlNsosr convicted the prisoner in the miti gated penalty of 10s. ; in default of payment, one month's imprisonment. Timothy Steil, an Irish labOurei, was charged by John Edgar, of 12, Queen-street, Edgeware-road. It appeared that on Saturday night; last. as complain ant was walking, quietly towards hOme, the prisoner, without saying a word, struck him a violent blow on the head ; he (the prisoner) also attempted to hit him with a hod which he had in his left hand. A policeman then arrived, and after much difficulty the prisoner,- who was vs:ry drunk, was conveyed to the station-house. In reply to the charge, prisoner said, " Faith, yer Honour,. I knOw nothing about it at all, at all ; and its thrue that I didn't know I was locked up till I woke in the cell yesterday morning."—He was fined 20s. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JWNE 4, 1844. UNION-HALL. Yesterday, Caroline Smith and' Ann Davis; two pros ' tittues, in the habit 'of frequenting the Kent-road, were brought before Mr. Traill, charged with highway rob bery. . Mr. William Ealing, a mercantile man; liVing in the City, was walking along the Old : Kent-road, on the pre ceding night, towards the ElePhaht and Castle, when he observed the two prisoners and another woman standing together near the Green-man gate. lie 'crossed over to the . .Opposite side of the road, and was followed by Smith, who came up to him, pressed her conversation, and wanted him to go hoMe with her. lie refused the invitation, and. desired her to gO away; but she still continued to press upon him, and at length thrust her hand into his trousers pocket, and pulled out his purse, containing two sovereigns and t w enty shillings in silver, with which she ran to her . companions. 'The complain ant pursued her, and when she got up to . the other women she stopped, and he then charged' her with robbing him of his purse and ;money. The moment, however, he uttered the worth, Davis, a woman of masculine appear ance, rushed at him, struck 'Mtn in the face, and, repeat ing the blow, Stretch - ed him on the road; in which con dition he was' found by a policeman, who, , on hearing his cries for help, went up and succeeded in securing the two priaonerS, , but.the other Woman:who is suspected of having the purse and money, escaped. In the cour s e of the examination it was stated that the prisoners had been frequently - in custody for robbing men on'that side of the water, but generally escaped conviction owing to 14, , parties whom" . they plundered being intoxicated at the time. In the present instance, however, the complainant was described to have been perfectly sober when he was robbed. Mr. Team. said that it was a very daring robbery; and that he should remand the prisoners until the other woman who was with them at the time was taken into custody. Harriet Smith and Mary Jones, two women of the same class as the former prisoners, were also charged with rubbing Thomas Wilson, a mechanic, on Sunday night. The complainant was walking down the Walworth road on Sunday night, when he was accosted by Smith, but he refused to have anything to say to her, and de sired her to go about her business. She still persevered in following the complainant, and at length thrust her hand into his pocket, and drew out 135., amongst which were three half-crown pieces, and then ran away. Com plaicant ran after her, and in the course of the pursuit she was observed to pass the money to her companion. They were both taken into custody, and the chief part of the silver was discovered secreted in Jones's hair, and in her shoes. The prisoners, who denied the charge, were committed, BROMLEY. An old man, named William Reeves, attended to an swer an information laid under the Game Act, charging him with having unlawfully set a wire for the purpose of snaring game, without having a game certificate, and for which offence he had subjected himself to a penalty of five pourrds. The presiding magistrates were the. Rev. Sir C. Far naby, Col. Long, and Messrs. Chapman and Goodhart. A keeper, named Tye, employed on the estate of Mr. Wells, deposed, that he saw the defendant in a field, and observed him cut. a branch from a tree, and tie a wire to it, and he then set the wire in the track of the game. Witness upon observing him complete the snare, went up to him, and took it sway, and he now produced it. The defendant denied that he had set the snare. He admitted that he had gone into the field, but declared that what the gamekeeper said about his setting the wire was false. The BENCH inquired how the defendantgot his living, and they were informed that he was a labourer. The keeper said that the defendant had been removed off the ground before, and a written notice had been served upon him not to trespass. The notice was not only signed on behalf of Mi. Wells, but also by several other gentlemen, and he believed Sir Charles Farnaby had himself signed it. Sir C. FARNABY said he did not recollect it, but it was very possible that he had. The Bench having consulted together, said that they considered the offence of an aggravated nature, and they should inflict a fine of 2/. 10s. and costs, amounting alto gether to 2/. 195., and in default he would be committed for six weeks to hard labour. The defendant asked for time to make up the money. Mr. CHAPMAN said the Magistrates could not give him time. If the money was not paid forthwith, he must go to gaol. It was stated that the amount of the fine and costs was eventually paid, and the defendant was then dis charged. An incident of a very singular character, and Which, but for almost providential interference, might have been attended with most fatal consequences, oc curred to the Rev. Mr, Crook,• of Bromley, on Sunday evening. The Rev. Gentleman had been to officiate at Keaton church, and was returning- home about ten o'clock in his chaise, when,. after he had gone- a short distance, the horse from some cause or other became tinmanageable,•and started off at full speed, going down the steep descent called Mason's-hill at a furious pace. He proceeded in his career to the Bromley turnpike, the gate of which was shut and fastened, and before any alarni could be given, or the turnpike-keeper had an opportunity to open it, the animal clashed against the bar and shivered it asunder, dragging the chaise through after him. The Rev. Gentleman kept his seat,•and the horse continued at the same speed to Bromley, where he was stopped. It was found upon examination that nei ther- the ; horse, chaise, nor - harness had received the slighte4t injury, and the o n ly mischief done .was the damage to the toll.bar SALE OF GuArro.—Yesterday at two o'clock, a sale by auction; took place at the auction rooms, Mark-lane, of a large quantity of guano, in antidpation of the arrival of the cargo which is at present on board a vessel in the Downs, that has imported it from the coast of Africa. There were about 450 tons, this being the largest importation in one vessel, and which was brought from the island of Ichiboe. The analysis of the guano wasstated to be about as follows: Volatile ammoniacal salt, consisting of phosphate oxalite; carbonate and humate of ammonia (containing seven-and half per cent. of free ammonia), twenty-six per cent., and organic animal matter, eight, together thirty-four per cent., fixed alkaline - salt principally phospate,muriate, and sulphate of potash, eleven.per cent. ; phosphate of lime and mag nesia, and oxalit e o f li m e , thirty per cent.; with only half per cent, of sand, and of moisture 24•50 per cent. There were sixty lots of five and ten tons each ; the average prices of which were 91. 7s. Gd. per ton. The whole wat - ditiosed of for about 4.2301, which, as the only expenses were freight, insurance, the pay and the support of the crew during the voyage to and fro, would leave very large profits to the owners, IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, June 3. Their Lordships met at Five o'clock. The Earl of CAWDOR presented a petition against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. The Duke of BUCCLEUCH presented a petition praying for the legalisation of Presbyterian marriages. Messengers from the Commons brought up several Bills. The Marquis of NORMANBY presented several peti tions from different parts of Ireland, praying their Lord ships to legalise Presbyterian marriages. WOOL DUTIES. Lord KINNAIRD wished to ask the Noble Duke on the cross bench (the Duke of Richmond), whether, now that he had got the return relating to the wool duty, and considering a late appointment which had been made in the Government, he intended to make any motion on the subject of the duties on wool? He wished also to move for a return of the imports of salmon since the alteration in the duty. He moved for this return to show that the reduction which had taken place in the produce of the Noble Duke's salmon fisheries in Scot land was not owing to the importation which had taken place under the tariff. The Duke of RICHMOND expressed his great sur prise at the course which the Noble Lord had taken. He rose to put a question, and in doing so, he indulged in insinuations against him (the Duke of Richmond). If the Noble Lord had any charge to make against him, let him make it like a man. It was contrary to the practice of that House, and contrary to the practice of society, in which gentlemen were supposed to move, to make such insinuations as the Noble Lord had indulged in. s What did the Noble Lord mean by alluding to a recent appoint ment, if he did not allude to the appointment of one of his (the Duke of Richmond's) brothers to the office of a Lord of the Treasury? Did the Noble Lord suppose, that because that appointment had been made he (the Duke of Richmond) was thereby " gagged?"— (Hear, hear.) He had known nothing of the appoint ment of his brother until after it had taken place. His brother certainly came to him and informed him that the appointment had, been offered to him, and wished to have his advice upon it. His answer was, " I think you had better remain in the command of your re giment ; but you are the best judge. I would not take office under the Government, beeause I cannot agree with all their measures." His brother, however, accepted the office. He (the Duke of Richmond) would remind their Lordships that he had given up his place as a Cabinet Minister because he could not agree with his colleagues. He would say nothing now about the wool duties, as he intended to speak upon the subject on the third reading of the Wool Duties Bill. Lord KINNAIRD disclaimed any intention of insi nuating that the Noble Duke would be " gagged" by the appointment of his brother. After a few words from the Duke of RICHMOND, the subject dropped. FACTORIES BILL. Lord WHARNCLIFi'i - iiTovedih; third reading 01 this Bill. The Earl of RADNOR did not think that legislation was required upon the subject of female labour in factories. The Duke of SUTHERLAND would not oppose the Bill. He would, however, have supported a measure limiting the hours of labour to a smaller number than twelve hours. Lord BROUGHAM thought legislation on this sub ject did a great deal more harm than it did good Legislation upon this subject must necessarily be ignorant legislation, and therefore it must be bad. This Bill could be nothing else than a Bill to cramp the in dustry of the working classes, and to cramp the powers of the manufacturers. The working classes had already the . power in their own hands of working as long or as short as they pleased. He was afraid this Bill would not be the last, upon the subject ; but he trusted that the Government would not again lend itself to any fur ther attempt to cramp the energies of our manufacturers, and to curb the industry of the working classes. Should they do so, they would only be arming foreign manufac turers with fresh powers to compete with this counfry. The Marquis of NORMANBY would give his vote in favour of this Bill, in the hope that it would lead to further legislation on the subject. The Noble and Learned Lord said they were legalising in ignorance upon this snbject. Why, what did Mr. Baker, the fac tory inspectors say upon this matter? He said that the manufacturers employed women while men were stand ing idle. With this fact before their eyes, could any man for a moment say that they were legislating in ignorance on this subject ? Their Lordships must recollect that in the manufacturing districts human labour was made a por tion of a power which never tired. The hours of labour of the agricultural labourers were limited by the length of day, but the working classes in the manufacturing towns worked by a light which was never extinguished. He was glad to hear that his Noble Friend behind him (the Duke of Sutherland), entertained a similar opinion to him upon this Subject ; but had he stood alone he' would have advanced the strong opinion with respect to factory labour which he had just expressed to their Lordships. Lord WHARNCLIFFE admitted thA a great por tion of the wealth of this country from her manufactures, but he also knew that we had paid a ter rible price for that wealth. He was old enough to re member, that instead of high mills studding the country in the West Riding of Yorkshire, every cottager worked his own loom by means of his wife and children, and the wife had sufficient time to attend to her domestic duties. Now,.however, the large mills were filled with women, and these women knew absolutely nothing but how to tie the knots and attend to the machinery in the mills.. This kind of labour was demoralising to these women. In many mills in the country men were entirely ex drank, and eluded, and the consequence of this was, that the women heThhuesybands home, home. Was such t without any at , a l a i s s e q t t u 4 e h t ia u r e de s . o d b o f a ft n h t t d h he husbands ens same de habitst. wives ob having a fetch v inagt allowedlt t i oh e e t fe o wives rc e eh x n i s t. ,tempt being made to remedy it ? The Bill was then read a third time and passed. On the motion of Lord DENMAN, Wilson's Estate' Bill was ordered to be postponed from to-morrow until the report of the judges, to whom the Bill had been re ferred, had been presented to their Lordships. NIGHT POACHING BILL. The Earl of STRADBROKE moved the third reading of this Bill. . The Earl, of RADNOR opposed the Bill, on the ground that the law at present in existence with respect to poaching was quite strong enough. H e was owing to' th e di s t ress believed that coc l if t u DlNGE denied th a t th e persons w h o poachingtry e t h x eEi stingl continuance p inTtzh ea cA were in the habit of poaching were driven to the com mission of that offence by distress. Those persons were generally idle and dissolute persons, and men who passed the principal part of their time in the ale-house. He must to t protest e being put f or th th a t t h e majority of with poaching had bee n driven distressed circumstances thathprsagainsto offencensb charged its th e under which they were labouring. Lord BROUGHAM complained of the slovenly manner in which the Bill had been drawn up, inasmuch as the preamble differed from the enacting parts of the Bill. Lord CAMPBELL supported the Bill, which was to meet cases of persons being found in a public road with instruments for, and in the act of destroying game. The LORD CHANCELLOR thought the Bill was very defective in its construction, and contended that if passed in its then state, it would be inoperative. Lord BROUGHAM suggested that the further con sideration 'of the Bill had better be postponed for a few days. The Earl of STRADBROKE then postponed the Bill till Monday next. CUSTOMS BILL. The Earl of DALHOUSIE moved the third reading of this Bill. The Duke of RICHMOND objected to the abolition of the duty on the article of wool, and contended that it would have the effect of ruining many of the flock masters of the country. The object, it was stated, of the reduction of the wool duty was to benefit . the manufacturing interest of the country. Now, if this were the case, the foreigner would,' of course, in self defence, increase the duty on our ma nufactures. He believed, and in this opinion he was borne out by the short-wool growers of the country, that this measure was inexpedient and ought not to pass. He opposed the measure because he believed it to be a step in the road to free trade, and he believed that if free-trade principles were to be adopted by the Go vernment, it would ultimately lead; to the ruin of this country.. Ite also objected to the reduction in the duty on vinegar as being much too large. At present the duty on vinegar was IS guineas a ton, and it was proposed to reduce it to four guineas per ton. - He did not think that was just to the vinegar manufacturer in this . conntry: Why did not the Government now try their hands at taking off some of the burdens on agri 'Culture ? He thought it'vva' but fair' o turn and turn about. He could not give the measure his support. Lord WHARICCLIPFE ; defended the measure, "und contended that its effect would be to increase the demand forhome, grown wool. Lord BEAUMONT defended the measure. The Earl of RADNOR expressed his regret that the reduction in the duty on glass had not extended further. The,Earl of DALHOUSIE replied; and The Bill was rend a third time and passed. The Stamp Duties Bill was read a second time, and their Lordships then adjourned. HOUS.E OF COMMONS, June 3. The SPEAKER took the Chair at a few minutes to Four. NEW MEMBER. Mr. ENTWISLE was introduced by Mr. Blackburn and Mr. W. Patten, and took the oaths and his scat for South Lancashire. The further consideration of the Reports on the Ash ton and Staleybridge Railway Bills was postponed till to-morrow (this day. The Slammannan Junction Railway Bill was read a third time and passed. The Eastern Counties (Newport Deviations) Bill was read a third time and pa.ssed. The Report upon the Wick Tree Roads Bill was brought up and received; as was also the Report upon Edward's Estate Bill. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. ' Mr. HAMILTON presented a petitiou from Bandon, signed by. Lord .Bandon on: behalf of the meeting at which it was agreed to, against the present system of National Education in Ireland. The Hon. Member pre sented petitioai from Carlow and other places to the same effect. "DISSENTERS' 'CHAPELS BILL. Mr. WORGAN'piesented several petitions,pgainst the `th - e - ireligtialtons of'the petitions were ligkligard in the gallery. Lord BARRINGTON presented petitions in favour of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Captain PECHELL presented petitions from New Harbour, Worthing, and other places in Sussex, against the Bill. Mr. VESEY presented petitions from Maryborough and Abeyleix, in the Queen's County, against the Na tional System of Education in Ireland. Mr. IRWIN presented petitions against the Dissen ters' Chapels Bill, and also petitions against the union of •the bishoprics of Bangor and St. Asaph. Mr. BARNABY presented petitions in favour of the Dissenters' Chapels Bill, and against the union of the Welsh bishoprics. Mr. ALDAM presented petitions from Leeds against the Dissenters' Chapel Bill, and others, as we under stood, in favour of the Bill.—(Hear.) Mr. PRAED presented petitions against the Bill, but we could not catch the names of the petitions. Sir J. Y. BULLER presented petitions from congre gations of Wesleyan Methodists, and of Baptists, against the Bill. Mr. P. HOWARD presented several petitions from congregations of Wesleyan Methodists, and others, against the Bill. _ _ _ - Mr. STRUTT presented petitions from Derby in favour of the Bill.—(Hear.) Mr. HARDY presented a number of petitions from Durham against the Bill. Captain ROUS presented several petitions from con gregations in Westminster against the Bill, and also several in its favour.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BOYD presented petitions from Coleraine, against the Bill, and also for the legalisation of mixed marriages by Presbyterian ministers. Col. RAWDON presented petitions in favour of the mixed marriages. Sir R. INGLIS presented petitions against the Dis senters' Chapels' Bill, from places in Dorsetshire and Berkshire. The Right Hon. Baronet also presented a petition from the holders of benefices in Sussex and in Yorkshire, complaining of the' present law of parochial assessment. He also presented petitions from various places, against the union of the Welsh bishoprics. Sir WILLIAM CLAY presented petitions from Dis senters of the Tower Hamlets, against the Dissenters' Chapels Bill. Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented petitions against the Dissenters' Chapels Bill, from the congregation of the Wesleyan Chapel at Birmingham, and from the congre gation of the Wesleyan Chapel at Islington, near Bir mingham. Mr. PLUMPTRE presented similar petitions. Mr. E. TENNENT also presented petitions to the same effect. Dr. BOWRING presented several petitions from Lynn and other places in favour of the Bill. Lord DUNCAN presented several petitions from Bath and other places against the Bill. MARYPORT AND CARLISLE RAILWAY. On the motion of Mr. G. DUNCAR,thelOrds' amendments to the Maryport and Carlisle Railway Bill were agreed to. On the motion of Mr. BROTHERTON, the Liverpool Docks Bill was read a third time and passed. The Ventnor Improvement Bill was read a third time and passed. _ _ Mi. ROSS presented three petitions, from Down and Antrim, against the Dissenters' Chapels Bill. Lord F. EGERTON presented similar petitions. Mr. LABOUCHERE presented similar petitions from Taunton and other places. Several other Members presented petitions against, and in favour of, the Dissenters' Chapels Bill. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition signed by 60,000 persons, praying for some inquiry into the course 'pursued with respect to the export of coals. On the mo tion of the Hon Member the petition was ordered to be printed, when he gave notice of his intention to call the attention of the - House to the subject on an early day : ''Mr. M. PHILIPS presented several petitions against the. Dissenters' Chapels Bill. Mr. Sergeant MURPHY presented similar petitions. NOTICE OF MOTION—THE STATE TRIALS. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE gave notice that, on the first day on which the Order of the Day for going into Com mittee of Ways and Means, or Committee of Supply, should be read, he should move for an address to her Majesty, praying that the further execution of the sen tence passed on Mr. O'Connell be suspended till the writ of error should be decided. TRADE WITH PRUSSIA. Dr. BOWRING gave notice of his intention to move for the production of any correspondence between the Foreign-office and the Government of Prussia, with re spect to our commercial relations with that country. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. Dr. BOWING, seeing the Hon. Baronet, the Secre tary of the Treasury, in, his place, asked when the re-. turns relating to the changes that had been made in the manner of keeping the public accounts might be ex pected to be laid on the table ? He had given notice of a motion en the subject, but considered it important that the returns should be before the House before he did so. It appeared from Sir G. CLERK'S answer, that the returns were not ready, and Dr. BO WRING deferred his motion till they should have been pfrfected. _ ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS. . - Mr. P. BORTHWICK gave notice that on the report of the Ecclesiastical Courts'-Bill being brought up, he should move that it be received that day six months. SCOTCH CRIMINAL LAW.. Mr. WALLACE moved for a return of-the protest of the jury who tried. Alexander Walker for an assault, with intent, &c., and for other documents connected with _the POOR-LAW RETURNS. Captain PECHELL moved far a return of the number of paupers who had received in-door or out-door relief in the various parishes of the kingdom, which are not joined in unions. ART-UNION COMMITTEE. Mr. WYSE moved that' Mr. Liddell and Mr. Hayter be dischn,rged from further attendance on the Select Committee on Art-Unions, and that Mr. Mackinnon and Sir Wm., Clay be added to the said Committee. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. _ . Mr. BAILME COCIIRAE said that her Majesty's Government had stated that it was their intention to iake the Poor-law Bill immediately after the Factories Bill, It now appeared the Right Hon. Baronet intended to proceed with the Bank Charter Bill. The second readinc , of the Poor-law Bill had been permitted to pass sul silentio,, upon the understanding that it would be brought on early. It now appeared as if it were to be indefinitely postponed. He wished to ask if the Go vernment would fix the day when the discussion on the Poor-law Bill was to come on? Sir R. PEEL said that there was nothing more diffi cult than to fix the precedence of important measures. The Bank Charter Bill, involving, as it did, the mone tary interests of the country, was a measure of the ut most public importance. He would, hofvever, on Thurs day state the precedence in which be intended to take the public business fir the week. Mr. B. COCHRANE wished to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman would state on Thursday when he would proceed with the Bill? Sir R. PEEL said he would state as nearly as pos sible when he would bring it on.—(A laugh.) Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know when the Right Hon. Baronet would proceed with the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill?—(A laugh.) -Sir R. PEEL said that he should first proceed with' the Bank Charter Bill. He did not know when he should proceed with the second clause of 'the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill?—(A laugh.) Sir W. BARRON wished to know when the Right Hon. Baronet ,would proceed with the Irish Registration Bill ?—(Laughter.) Sir R. PEEL would endeavour hereafter to name such a day as would be convenient. After the answers lie had given to other questions, the Hon. Baronet could not expect that he would now name a day. - Lord J. RUSSELL asked whether was to under stand that the .first business on Monday: would be the Bank Charter Bill ? . Sir R. PEEL was understood to say that nothing was to take precedence of the Bank Charter Bill. GUERNSEY. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to know from the Right • Hon. Baronet whether the statement he had seen in the newspapers respecting the sending of troops and mili tary stores, and ammunition, was• correct, and. whether it was in consequence of any local disturbances in the island they were sent ? Sir R. _PEEL said he wished the Hon. Gentleman would put the question to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he was in his place. Mr. DUNCOMBE gave notice of putting the question accordingly; and asked if the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir R. Peel)lad any objection to lay on the table's copy of the judgment and commitment in the case of The Queen v. O'Connell and others ?" Sir R. PEEL said, perhaps'the Hon. Gentleman . would give notice of his intention to move for it. - CANADA.—MR. •BARRO W. ' On the Order of the Day for going into Committee on the Sugar Duties being moved, Lord SANDON presented a petition from Liverpool against any reduction of the duty. • • Mr. ROEBUCK hoped the House would allow him to take that opportunity to do justice to a gentleman, Mr. Barrow, respecting vt•hom he had made some observa tions on the debate on Canada. [The lion. Member spoke in so low. a tone that he could not be correctly followed.] He had received a letter, from Mr. Barrow, explaining that he was not the author of the note which *he (Mr. Roebuck) had attributed to him in the debate._ WAYS AND MEANS.—SUGAR DUTIES. The Order of 'the Day for the Committee of Ways and Means (Sugar Duties) having been read, and the Speaker having left the chair, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, although he was addressing the House formed into Com tnittee of Ways and Means, the object of which was essentially to provide m eans for raising the supply for carrying on the Government and administering the affairs of the nation, he was sure that there was not a Member who heard him that was not prepared to admit that questions were involved in the resolutions which he had to submit of far' greater importance than mere considerations of revenue. - He was sure they would all admit that the question, of the sugar duties involved considerations of the greatest importance to all classes in this country—to the interests of our own colonies, and to our intercourse with those nations with which we had so long and steadily• delayed to form treaties, in consequence of considera tions with which this question was connected. Jr would be his duty to reconcile the various con flicting points which would arise out of the alte ration in the sugar duties—it would be his 'duty to reconcile the measures which would be taken to secure a supply of sugar with the course which the Government had pursued with respect to the slave trade. and also with the interests of those who had in vested their property in the colonial possessions of this" .country, and. which i t was his, dtity,.. ft,s he,belie %red it was the inclination of that House, to uphold. "There was one thing in which he felt satisfied that he should have the unanimous support of the House—as to the necessity of keeping up the supply of sugar, which had 1 '.. ............. „,,W.41 0 become almost a necessary of life, essential to the corn- f give effect to the provisions of any treaty '' t le fort of a large number of the people ; upon this the ' force, which binds her Majesty to admit sue% . e 9 House had always expressed a d ec id e d opinion. produce of a foreign country, at the same- duties The maintenance of an essenti a l a r ti c l e was a subject on are imposed on sugar the prod u ce of the most fa v or which he was sure there would be no difference of opinion, nation. t 'l° although there might be a differ e n ce as t o th e manner L or d JOHN RUSSEL L moved, as an amend °eri s use in which it would be most expedient to maintain the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exche c l e el that supply. That object had heretofore been secured reduction to thirty-four shillings of the du t Y e s sit' by the legislation which they had at different times' sugar from foreign countries. He (Lord J. Rus s t h o le adopted. Previous to the emancipation of the negroes the Right Hon. Gentleman in penposing these ti e s the produce of our West Indian colonies was more than tions had referred to former contests. He said t h at . .,,ise sufficient for the consumption in these countries, and was an old battle-field, and he expressed his su a it' es e allowed of the export of at least • one-third that he (Lord J. Russell) should be anxious to l a r tr e, of the whole. At that time the supply again on a field where he had been already &l e o. of this country was secured, and there was a good assu- Now, he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman hau_ r o c e ranee that the p r i ce wou ld b e k ept d own to a proportion self sounded a retreat to the forces which he comm a ha l f With the prices in other countries, by the effect-of that —(Hear, hear.) He appeared prepared to give use be large and constant surplus, disposed of in the other the ground for which he had been contending ; a e at er markets of Europe.- But when the emancip a tion (L or d J o h n R usse ll) came f orwar d with gr be of the negroes took place there was a pro- confidence than on former occasions, becal e as bability that th ere wou ld b e a di m i n i shed supply, to found that the Right Honourable Gent tee meet which diminution Parliament determined, by had abandoned those weapons which he eel eel equalising the duties upon East and West Indian sugars, merly wielded with very great effect; that . `; ect eee to bring into the market the produce of a part of the deserted those who had looked to him for pro l e British dominions; having a rich soil, cultivated by free and they might now expect this question to be 10 0 and cheap labour, and possessing very great on the real ground of the facts and argureentsenees ' facilities of communication and transit to this country. applied to the case.—(Cheers.) He had never ra h eet ss He did not apprehend that the immediate consequence the Right Hon. Gentleman appear to lack arg n our of adhering to the pre sen t sys t em wou l d b e to create much as on that occasion. He had stated at the4ssot any great dearth of sugar, or cause any serious incon- - mencement of his speech, that there was not at P . % his ventence in this respect. But when he considered the a su ffi cient supply, and that the price of sugar ' ba ttle improved condition of the population within the last reason for introducing this change. Why, in ° le w -00 year, from the extension of employment and increase of which was formerly waged, arguments quite as „. ss f e lli wages that had taken place, and the consequent demand were stated in favour of a change, and were a w l,' th at that would arise for an article that was now little short repelled. The Right Honourable Gentleman ° o wl of a necessary of life, he had thought it his duty te sub- the price of sugar was so very high.- - (L au ill e ce i mit a measure that should provide, not merely From the last Gazette it appeared that the P, oes iti for the supply of .it that might be imme- sugar the hundred weight, in the British possess' ar e diately required for the consumption of the America, was 395. 9id. ; the average price of th e "iv country, but also to create something of a surplus. There descriptions of sugar in the last year was 375. a'' e et ie was, in consequence of their altered relations with China, average price of sugar in 1841 was 38s. eld. 1 ''',.. e L e pe a facility of procuring a supply from that country, and in 1840 was no less than 48s. The Ri it was important, in order to extend their trade, that a man now came forward, and said that the pric e see ds freer admission should be given to other articles from being 2s. more than the price of last year, was n it , lie ght lion- ` - i ; f 7e, China than those which they had hitherto taken. Under sive argument in favour of the proposed alteratire which these circumstances he had thought it his duty to sub. recollected, with regard to the amount of VP', Soill e mit the proposition of which he had given notice, for was available at a former period, that th t hat the admission of free-labour sugar upon the terms stated Lord, the Member for Liverpool, state d. et in the resolution. The proposition was not now for here were about 240,000 tons availab le Ilea the first time submitted to the House, and on looking consumption in this country, whilst t he „t gas back on the occasions on w hi c h it had been under Member for Beverley stated, that the aneet e aisg consideration, he could not fi nd that there had be e n an y 260,000. What wa s the s t a t emen t ma d e at a l 7 154 4 disposition on the part of any gentleman in that House to of West India proprietors ? That the supply ° he P t object to the principle of such an ar rangemen t . Hit h a d from the West Indies, was 128,000 t ons , from " we eiog been opposed on those occasions, it h a d b een met by Indies, 70,000, and from the Mauritius, 32,000, t he b e ; arguments applicable to the ci rcums t ances o f t h e t i me 230,000 tons, with a reserve of 40,000 at be be' at which the proposition was ma d e . H e wou ld as k t h e g in n i ng o f t h e year. If t h ese f acts which n od Hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Labouchere), upon mentioned were sufficient to induce those T i e of t he whom it had devolved to resist this proposition, wh e th er formed the Government to reject the pro.posit u ' ees elw s his objection to it did not arise principally from the late Government, was not the supply of 240,0 00 a L e tioo; circumstances of the time? This country was then under cient to prevent the necessity for the proposed le - re j:e' the obligations of commercial treaties with the United There were reasons to which he had before ref e r .1 4 of States, and particularly with Brazil, and it was impos. to the neceseity of securing a better general n 7 0 04 sible to draw the distinction between slave and free. sugar, which he thought were sufficient to in et tlP. f grown sugar ; while professing to admit the latter they Committee to reconsider their determination Dei,le might give indiscriminate admission to the former. time, and to propose such an additional supply w eb ,", In regulating the mode in which freolabour that was to be done, and if it was to be done e : te o sugar was to be admitted to their markets, consent of the Government, again he said let th n jj ' eato they must first guard against the invasion of the their measure a straightforward one—(Rea r ' principles on which they proceeded, by allowing let them make it a measure that should be a ° - e e et; the introduction of free-labour sugar being made a cloak the_laws and principles that governed trade % t oe, for bringing in the sugar produced by slaves. With respect merce. If they thought fit to give a certain P t r iae ete i Y el to the mode of guarding against such an introduction, he to th eir colonial possessions in consequence ° I. bo uiel thought there would be but little difficulty. It had been change they had made with regard to their l a d 0 1'l found that a certificate of origin, accompanied as it was that be done, and let them make that a g o r n ° u g t n i e r e e s e . , ?', li ti now intended it should be, by the certificate o f th e tinction between their colonies and other c British authority . at the port of shipment, were let them not adopt a new principle in coraTeee h e sufficient to prevent any invasion of the law. which would • make a confusion 'from which tu ' e ll t e It was not necessary to repeat the arrangements which find it difficult to escape—one contradicting coups' would be adopted -to prevent the introduction of slave- known maxims on which the progress of this it c' eae r e, labour sugar under the denomination of free-labour trade had hitherto been based. The Righ t .`-` eie le sugar. Those arrangements had been found quite tleman said that this proposition was not a n il . 1 ,4 effectual in relation to other articles. There were some because it had before been proposed d isc i who supposed that the prot ec ti ve d uty o f 10s. per cwt. was H on G ent l eman b e hi nd h i m, and had been if _.,,, more than was necessary fo r th e protect i on o f our colonial i n t h e H ouse. W hy, he might as we ll saleireir, interests against the competiti on o f f ree -l a b our sugar, bht was b r i ng i ng i n a Bill for establishing un iversa l s d '',. il l ', it should be recollected, th a t i n J ava alone a much t h at i t was not new, because it had been alrt P e e greater quantity of sugar was raised than was requisite posed and vindicated by the Hon. Member n' s e te oo for the supply,of the , country; and it was raised in dale.—(Hear, hear.) But in point of fact it s v3 tee itf great quantities in Manilla, where its cultivation was' principle • he contended that placing their C ° fete capable of being greatly extended; and that with re- grounds of morality, erecting a pulpit in their `'esit eP e spect to China, while - it was impossible to calculate the house, and converting the whole of their landiefiegetbee4 quantity of sugar which must be expected from that into preachers of antislavery doctrines, evas,: o bjec i e country, it was well known that it exported large a new principle in commerce.—(Cheers.) tes if set quantities to countries in th e ne i g hb ourhood. He i n t h e f i rst place, entirely to . the - principle he aloe* found, however, that the m easure w hi ch he t h oug h t i t coul d en d in nothing but mischief; 11 1 .. IV O was about to submit to the House was lik e ly it would be impossible to act consistently tiV al d l iees f le e t to meet with- opposition from various qviarters on respect to this very question they took comin° o p, s° e r different grounds. The Hon. Member for Dumfries various countries in different states of civilise:v/ILO 0 ir argued that no distinction of duty o ug ht to b e of which were governed by barbarous chiefs, wh ir soy made between sugar, the produce of. the - British cised a despotic power of life and death over i or p eoP i , possessions, and that which was the Produce of any jects. There were others, consisting of milliones;c,stiel,,, other country. The Noble Lord (the Member for in the low condition of serfs, among whom th e' !let 1: 0 London) was prepared to contend that no distinc- rible cruelties were practised—yet they dru,,o e t ,i tion in duty_ ought to be made between sugar the when the goods arrived at the Custom -housee e ere rev ii 'produce of free labour and sugar the produce of slave the social condition of these people, or what We i ; TP,,, labour, whilst his Hon. Friend behind him was prepared of the senates and rulers who governed th e the ir* to agree that the protection proposed for colonial sugar took them as a matter of trade, and sold thenl, hy O l e against sugar the produce of free labour was insu ffi cient, in return. There were other ways in which,' bet tr il e and therefore he proposed a reduction of the duty on attend to the social happiness of the worldeout t o , colonial sugar. With respect to the proposition of the respect to commerce he believed the best W i g Hon. Member for Dumfries, he need not occupy the time could do for the increase of Christian mo n o O r e ofthe House by discussing it. I t h a d b een f u ll y di scusse d to - allow commerce to take its own way,' a eie ale ft e -in 1842, when the House had expressed an opinion not in, to the civilising influence which all e fo sl'i t „ accordance with that entertained by the Hon. Member, must have, rather than interfere violently by fi t pile' ' and during the present year in a discussion on the ques- gulations with its accustomed course. In the fir s to 'el tion of coffee,.the House had adhered to its former opinion, they would offend all those natives against id' f 1304 which was that the colonial possessions of the empire were declared, by these resolutions. The empire ° e ffea n , r e entitled to - protection. He came, in the next plac e , t o and the kingdom of Spain would naturally b e t i ee in / consider the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman, the and they would no doubt be induced to indu ri ,,a04.,,, . , Member for Bristol, and he could assure him that those taliatine- tariffs, in order to meet these re e s ° ,, t eeice interested in the West Indian possessions of the country (Hear, hear.) That in itself was a reason icti peoe tt ief must not impute to the Government want of sym- attempting-the legislation which they n°.r e eolla se ee, pathy with their interests and feelings. He felt How could they know the exact state of t nhel 4 0 deep sympathy with their interests, and he could make for which they now proposed to legislate ?, ue jers' ie te all allowances for the feelings under which they laboured. about to legislate for Java. Now, he hane e e fe/ c s s But after most attentive consideration of the subject, h e from accounts which he had read of the stat e tro d believed the measure which he was about to pro- in Java, that in that country the sugar enit, e , e re co t , / pose was the one which would ultimately prove the a compulsory cultivation. The cultivatorc a " e , anj e r . _hest calculated to promote their permanent prosperity. pelled to produce a certain quantity of relloie bs be He would not deny but that the 'effect of the measure dispose of it at a certain price. The Rig a d inig 00 0 would be to effect a certain reduction in the price of tleman might, perhaps, contradict him, 0 . 1 eave. se to sugar, or rather to prevent its augmentation; but of this better informed on the state of leislation 1111 an ce r et' he was confident, that of all the dangers which could affect he was. But was not the fact oft heir ign ° fee the l i, so the West Indian interests, none could be greater than - th - e - Mte - rifesiffairs in Java reason sufficien t w ere 1 els; such an increase in the price of their staple commodity staining from legislation? . e -(Cheers.) Th e y 1° if as would inflict such an, injury upon the population of equal state of ignorance with kegard to , he et • 0 this country as to raise a .permanently hostile feeling nilla. .Then, with regard to Puerto B ic° ool pre against them.. He was convinced that if the price of reason to believe that, • with the creep dia l ect' , sugar was to rise to 495.: per cwt., as itjwas in 1840, the small part of that island, slavery was i:t ruert ° ,loo effectwhichit would produce upon the permanent interests veiling practice: Yet sugar, the produce_ 1 0 u se doer' of the colonial proprietors would be most disastrous. was to be refused, while sugar, the Pr ° " e se te l l He thopght it was necessary where it was intended to make was to -be received. - Our Custom-h°oe sec' e t oo a change in the amount of duty at the earliest possible mo- said, "We are so satisfied with. the stst t isla t ie e er'', merit, to intimate to the parties what was the amount of the Java, that we will admit the produce of t he re ie r oe protection to be ensured on the introduction of sugar, we are so shocked at the.existence of slaveo ell i pse: the produce of free labour. The colonies stood in Rico, that we will refuse to - trade with. e t t hose ed to this particular situation :—they were looking to NOV what was the state of our trade w i t h ind?, °- o° 3 an early period of having the opportunity of employing additional labour. ' In order, to do this gro w laboue countries ? Cuba and Brazil wer asiet il!T o , et *sugar by slave labour in greater g o. 1' 0 01 ; they 'would have to invest capital ; and he thought, was sufficient to provide for their own "' I & O r b !b ed e ' thereforleebefOre they calleld upon: them to embark in this they grew. this sugar ? , In order to prof ° s ehic tee , expedition, it was but right that they should know dis- selves ' various articles of manufacture %pore:Ape; tinctly that the protection they now had wo u ld b e con - stood in need. F rom w h ence did they d es e rlo s ; tp e tinued. With respect to the notice that had been given manufactures ? Why, from Lancashire etieees eet t# fl) by the Noble Lord, the Member for the City of London, therefore they were holding out an inu lec erYe ir e o r ' e • he had only to say that he thought it would be found to People of Cuba and Brazil ' to continn e f l o cs 9 oo o l ' d be one very difficult to carry out. The Noble Lord was nishing them with . the manufactures ° t hese l' ie t ti l e! peepated to' extend to all sugar the same protection. Yorkshire.- e -(cheers.) They sent then ; ,it'' s ? The .views of the Noble Lord , appeared to him not tures, and they were paid for them in sue - e etre o s it calculated to effect th e object , he had in view. He was would not consume that sugar in this disp ose d eeT . ; • for unlithited - introduction, and - that would undoubtedly said it was a crime. How, then, did thei , : new 0 0 4 1 ; 9 tend - to the increase of the slave-trade. But hewould leave Why it so happened that they toole ei tel ee in, 0) 0d it to-the Noble Lord to explain his own views on the sub- from. Russia, which could not be Pal" re paret t e e i lef o f ject. What inconsistency would it not be on theie part to manufactures, because -Russia was not P the Prtel4pe make such exertions as they had been making for the them; therefore they :. sent this suga r ' and , itc o, d e suppression of the slave trade, and which was still car- slave labour, to Russia, and took the bell pra n d eac,p ried on in spite of all their energy; in spite of the vessels' which they had on the coast of *Africa, if they mit,Russia in return for these slave-groi . sies t _ no te, - The Right Hon. Gentleman protest/ ar ed y celr t el,ee; gave facilities . for the introduction of slave-grown importing sugar from Cuba, yet Beiss:e ' r at ed i i i is ts r e sugar: It would give those who were engaged in the such commodity, and we as freely "l e ' e ne ee tlf ee t slave trade every inducement to continue it. When the tallow and hemp, and gave Russia the s s_ ed e lee t e e estimates were before the House the Hone Member for in return which we would otherivise . _e v ," e e ar e el i t i ;i Montrose - said, with perfect truth, that they could Cuba. The Right lion. Gentleman t e n s sa ill tor} eopt . only suppress the slave trade by diminishing consciences being free. Upon my Nv°r n ",,' n or its ) 4 t eed the profits of those who were engaged in it, Lord) the. Right Hon. Gentleman, A c , n e ' rie ', ! e re ae a and not, by . force. how could they more effec- to reconcile these things to his con s s u i pee ',steep 0 1 tually reduce the profits of those embarked in the slave any objection at all to slave-grown .. e u e ' c h T oe t i v ite e trade than by shutting them out from the markets into Russia; nay, he was ready to assist: he itr S eV ;CI of Great Britain? He should therefore like to know how give Russia' the Noble Lord would defend his proposition? He had directly of slave-grown sugar shocked o ,' lee ee es tnee our manufactures, but , t ee T h i s „r y Pi A 0 'heard' it hinted that by admitting sugar, the produce of a very thin veil indeed.—(Hear, hear e 4 ee et, i cat e et, .:foreign countries not using slave labour, they would ere- doubted 'whether, if the, Right Hon. P!, j ee eien ee in of . ate a-vacuum in other countries which would be supplied being a stout Protestant, had been a rc ei es ts i a e •oet t , ;la from Brazil and other slave-grbwing' countries. that his confessor would think these P eo ,eeNe e , s er4hst He - differed from that view entirely. He was of excuse. In 1840 we sent to. Cuba e es, oooe e t o , 3 40, opinion the effect of it would be to enhance the ourproducein manufactures ,• in l'e3.!, n`" .d eitie" t fitly),, ' price of slave-grown sugar as contrasted with 1842, 938,000/. worth. And this in w° sell . ' is ,i, es the -produce . of free countries. But it was no matter to.. them how other countries acted, theirlB4l, 2,560, 5 "" was sent by other channels. To Bre , 'I 001 01 i ali olie 2,635,0001, worth ; in d r e torZ,, C c if ° consciences would be free. He now begged -to advert only 1,650,000/. worth of our nia_ n es i g ht le lee re,,li c .,bt to' another . part of the-question, that which related retuxus proved that all the tinie th e a. ...;in5t Si t he ie e eti l to the granting of favourable terms to those man was declaiming so earnest )) • s eeet t een .. . te le ii ; Countries with which they had commercial treaties• were encouraging the slave - tracle n . oe ",„ erg us ed iie Brazil . was a country with which they bad a treaty of Hon. Gentleman retreated to °t a forWe rl Y aliC lll" 'ePl this kind. They had also treaties with the argument which had been . _, t o inireeiel:tr, o f United , States, Sweden, Mexico, Buenos Ayres, this House,'-and which he attempts eee•ar,,os, ee ! Columbia, Bolivia, and - Peru. In some of these although we did not ourselves coven. __c;" e ' s s u it ,0 00 11 viii i countries there was no pretence for saline admitted 90,000 tons, the roduce ,lLt thet ee vor e e ell' that the stave trade existed. Mexico and Coruna?. these three favoured cou n trie s,u m t e n tion of e - ' 4e verf t ;eig; big had declared that they would consider the slave being substracted from the con th s e e trade eepiraey ; and there was no apprehension as to thate' d s aid 1 1,01 01 re to the amount of sugar which those countries could be replaced by other prod uce— i that we were thereby, indir! al t Ye s e e t eeinan iiet arg eo ritt o , produce, or of any encouragement - for. the' slave ing slavery. The Right 1 , 1 tx the force of (i t ' o da L -1 0 0i 00 , trade. The only territories that remained in the least had diminisbe produce % w e t 0 047 , very g° ° 'i l r'Ke were those of the United States and Sweden— He. said the sugar of Cuba w a s &. _ wee ve ~e d e pt t Sweden possessing only one small island, the produce of that elaveslabOur in this Manilla, siaai e ; e el f tb o l,l which vva,s not su ffi cient for the supply of Sweden her- •We took from Java, Manillni, a ; did g.v & eca r.),' W e i self, . The United States certainly produced 50,000 tons ton ; and, so far, we ceer_teeal_._(erear, fie t i ::iiii re per year; but they also imported- a very large quantity and protection to sl h a e y tte l r an r from other countries, But it had been suggested was the case, it evas t to put that the Americans would give a bounty of principles of trade—not ap peared .° ° w iz:ll4 6o e ' o r Ilse Or 185.,, -to enable them to compete. But allegations, which cer tainly_ .was better ' ut i a l ( ! tl e i 4 , es t that was not consistent with the general character of much of hypocrisy. It of enfere ia e . le e Ar ty , American. statesmen, who had recently abolished the suga adm it ted s_ ;aka . esf ee a d rE t r e e t n g ti r . „b a t I' ) to tie' that e s°e :e° e ' i t i-' t i ie ' .System of bounties • upon exports. After a few further we elt g °Jl ige - tic' l qbservations the Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by benefit would be proau . stinetion : ' , no ri l e) 0 movin . : pose, for , the cl the' world by this di ve sa" • ss' din i faemeelabourn°stutgtobarrd.sevP:rtth°s::B°.riCil — l. - Mir, - liewiThqe — iiiising the Supply granted to __den B u t when- ' °NO' ey its e to . „d* lie mm 4 1 ' her Majesty, • the several duties now payable on; reason for makin g it. . lin e of P , see ere 0 sugar be - furth6r. confirmed for a time to be li oved to - be merely in e . „ r ot w i s e. er ee mired, servo und except' that from - and after the' ' distinctionpr so rT e ri n eloo' the Government of tl i i i l e S y b conseeuences follow from this 10th day Of - November - next; there :shall- be -charged n persevere in why- o ld a pu 0 .snefi l, A l t ..ci i , on broWn Muscovado, or clued - sugar; certified to be. country_,_ h . not see li s on. Gentleman tea b u t „tee: the kroWth of:China, Java, or Manilla, or of any other Rig htanu ether countries; but he n° t 05 e e , et n o t t i et_ e ne e es o foreign. TeuntrY, the sugar or eyhich her elajesty in - Ce tleman's statements in this c a P r e e (foie/0e Council shall have declared to be ' adinissible, as not T n „A me rica admitted the sun_ The o II , r 71 i t e ..of 4 i b...vigg,,ng . p,pstvc ; 9t: g4rft - igsitk3hs FEt a .. l l/. 145., to , rate.; _ Uind States. What gu araiite„emerT ie d C u o n , G te f t gather with an additional uty ont: per cenfam on the did not send the sugar of isr4fe R ight IY ot o r" iillt s aforementioned rate. COntry instead of their ow _ „cal' on t g 0 2. That, from and after the 10th day of November next, her Majesty be authorised, by Order in Council, to wan se eme d