The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-09 00:00:00

BRAZIL. • . , • Mr. EWART wished to put a question to the Right ion. Baronet at the head of . the Government, with respect to Brazil. , The Government of Brazil proposed to impose by their new tariff a duty of 60 percent. on the value of the manufactures of this. coun try. Now, he wished to ask the ...Right Hon. Baronet, whether the duty which the Government imposed upon Brazilian sugar was not 150 per cent. on the value? Ile only asked the Right Hen. Baronet to give them what was the reciprocal duty on the value of the mann factures imported into Brazil, and the duty on.the value • of Brazilian produce imported into this country,. al..- , Sir R. PEEL said, with respect to the cale*tion whether a. certain amount of duty would be 14t) t per cent.. on the value of the article; he thought the.fron-Member was quite 'competent to make , that calcidation him self.—(A laugh.) The proposition made -by the Bra-. zilian Government was, that its sugar ,shoUld kr; admitted into this country at the same rate. F r. as colonial sugar. There was sebsequently,a relaxa, tion of , that condition ;. and the Brazilian, Government offered, that whatever might be the amount of duty oil colonial sugar, the duty on Brazilian sugar; should not exceed that by more than one-tenth---that .was tosay, if 10s. was the duty on colonial produce, the 'duty on Brazilian produce should riot. exceed., lls. .- With respect 'to manufactured produce, .the proposal of the Brazilian. Government 'was that the duty - o n cotton Wool should be 40 per cent.. ad valorem ; that , the. duty on woollen goods should be 30 per cent. , ad valorem.- On other artieles - there was to be no restvietion. Mr. WARRUR.TON said, the ; question was. situ Ply an arithmeticaLone ;it was whether-2zs. question . was 255., phis 2s. 6d—was not a duty at the rate of 158 per cent. His Hon. Friend 'wished to draw a contrast be teen .the rate Of duty• the Brazilians wished. to put on oar- Produce, and, the_, rata -of duty they Were pre pared to submit to from. us—that was .. 40 or 60 percent. on their side, on our goods, against 'l5B per cent. on our aide, on their sugar.. ' : _ . - The conversation then dropped. . • - • f - • ' ' • POOR-IAW. ~ Mr. TURNER Itskect the Right Hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department , whether , hte, intended introducing into the • Poor-law Bill a clause. ; appoint chaplains to the poor-law unions, to be paid out 9f the rates, to the exclusion of the clergy of - the rr9testatit Dissenters ? - Sir J. GRAHAM said he adhered to the auswer. had given to a similar question, put to him by the Hon. Member for Evesham. In any alteration of the Poet law Act, he did not intend tapropose any alteration, in the law relating to religious instruction in union work houses: • • ' ' EMPLOYMENT -OF THE NAVY IN THE C 01.• LECTION OP POOR-RATES; IRELAND. Captain PEGIIELL -rose to explain- a ...statement which he had . 'Tattle, en Friday:- last- on the -subject of the employment el•zthe navy 'to enforce the payment of 'poor -rates in Ireltnd. 'The Bight Honourable Baronet opposite, one of the Lords of the Admiralty; had stated that - he was not aware. of the ezistence _of sucli practice ; and he (Captain fechell) bad quoted from an Irish County, paper a statement - that • the,Earl of Lucan had, at - a meeting of Castieliar , de clared, his . determination lostler ,ericourage_ resist ance to -the poor-rate Collectors, than to' submit to the imposition of a -new rate, while so : large a portion of the - 'Ant rate: remained uncollected In reply to the Earl • of . Luc - an, Captain . Blake was reported to have said that naval forces were coming_round to the coast, and the .Earl• of Lucca was reported to have replied, that he had no doubt. but that the Government would send forces to enforce the collec tion of the rates. He had since received a commUnkittioti froia - :the Earl of Lucan, denying that he hid eves made such t statement, and he thought it his duty 'ta state that fact to the House. At the same time he beggedito state that hp had only ,quoted the statement as he.liad - found it is a newspaper published in - ' the Noble Earl's: own county. RraucTlON. OF THE' THREE-AND-A-HALF . PER CENTS. • On the Order of the Day for the , House resolving itself. into Committee \ori !the reduction, of the Three and-a-Half per Cents. being read, Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose amidst lone Oh, oh," and said he had several pretitionalpc:on the subject of supply. , • • The SPEAKER begged to inform the Hon. Member that he could not present theletitiens. l - 7 (Cheers..) The motion was, that , the . ,Hous k e:.oli‘iia,,resolve.-itself into Committee on the ' iiir p r and;47llelf per Cent, Annuities, and not that it-6hp ~ ,yes4l. 4 ,:iiielf,Anto ConMaittee of Suonly.---(OreCrs.)! • • the ilouv Vein: F.P4: 1 * 1 .#14?9 4 0 n 0 6 raln }E tte;: The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the subject which_ it irialik r -atitylo stibirfilelo the House, was one' which would be sseknioivledged by eery One ie be 9f considerable importan ce.' It involved the dealing with a' large 'unwind. Of the debt ; it was calculated . - Troduce a great annual saving in the charge whichlhev publielliactirreS on account of that debt ; • and if House , should • be pleased to agree to: the measure Which he should' pro- • pose, it would tend; iti :his opinion;' to raise the character and- the power ,of -this country, by' evincing the extent of our great resources, and out' determination to discharge with honour the national debt;-=;=(CheeriL) If he were the first time calling 'upon the House to deal with a subject of this nature, he might tbink it necessary to enlarge upon the motives which Instified him in making such a proposition. But he WAS not the first Finance Minister of this country who had had ihe pleasing task of recommending similar arrangements to the Rouge and' the principle. upon Which those arrangements proceeded, was one so utOersally. acknowledged by statesmen _ of the :greatest financial ability, 'by . nen of every shade of opinion--it had •been so frt . quently recommended by COMMittees of 4114 House of -; -; . Cotiunons, and So frequently; akknoadedged and -con firmed by Parliament--that he felt himself .relieved„frem . _ thenecessity whiCh on such a 'subject might: otherwise' be imposed upon him, of shoWing to the' House the Cor rectness -of the principle upon 'Which - hid proposal was founded. his task was of a differentniture., The pro:. priety of affording relief to thopublic,heinn noknatiledged, the, duty that devolved upon - him:. Avf.g to .satisfy the Ho'Use that the time was arrived; and that circumstances were favourable for ttecoMplishingard4Uption of the debt which 'would produce' a great attntitd:hatPig.•: It was in the discharge orthat duty that presented himself to the House ' • and he begged their. for, attention a,-short perled,'"while he Stated to - theta tha'groiiii,ds - uPeti,'WhiCh_ he conceived himself called,upotl i tOpY44sse,'aad 'upon whi,ch he ,trusted the.,llouse wohltiltd,op, measures . which he - had new,,,to stAkutt. 1 . '"Pho l alters io n _which' t, i the k be was Shea - tO : I ;eeteorneacncl te, the °use, was one dealing with ' a '"large amonnt: -• f,' flebt-...-- an ' amount of debt.: absoliitily,,"tirger :r :thita that with which any lietr4.. ot..r.cittigma...*o4.;"qo, befbre called upon to de4„' . /..t W . aa',4o lesS:-9 . r 411) , ,. 'a few. hUndred peluids ' less--Llk i :, ' 0 Alib i: o of the, na tional debt. 'lilt were con'ae • 0 .o,l4TOY,'in the pro portion which it bore OA ,/,,-. kFt,..,a#9.tint ' - of the debt, he conlil 'net', s4 ; 1;.: .„ti „I,fiiic,,,kApecut.,„ unprecedented i 'bectitikk* 9, ellailti4"f3o. s ekifft ( Pe, first occasion in witic a l l. liefion of the aßintalinreit - , walpropOSea Mks! cus p 14,0:'41bmi nii . i ll4. the i y . 4, i woo,. find the at IynAte i rlitt9 t i t eitl.:wittikstflt, inferior in iimonnt..fitlg*w :lit . It ritegtord, but 'still a 5uin",141471, comp : T :.. e , . eping debt of thleiSiintry , at' I,lp Ar4o; .66gediinii4.. ,- thizg . the propoitien Whiett - thpreAs" 14anteutit:,Opt* 44 tW.. whole debt - of the contrtry. ',Tftic 'then 1 that really _ . . - , .. , able man relied upon the i .chacatter. and • credit of I the country, and Abe Wijlingiiess . of -. all men. to 6'..atributeto'itS Welfare, 'ind i te carried.the reduction into effect with success en 4 with 'Universal' applause: Ile - (the Chancellor' of .tha pCcheqUer)' had - altudea to pie magnitude of aßo&nt ; for he thought tuU on .an occasion . ' like ~ „ptis , the "Re * , „OUght' to have the whole iif:o - s.. z facti . liefor4 . ,„i/* : .,li • was his duty to state'AO . h . e.m - that. iiiiich,„ in -tge eye of every Considerate n4a,n, Was. a ;., sin eTenrne, , ,i4 pie ppe ratron. lie WOuld say ,ttat, ,th " time iiahl aMmd when the ..operation.c9uld. be -eirec;te • aid when 1 0 ..00, 04 t it ought to be effected.. rekiajte s k loktte. opfinion ot* the, public that the Governmeni,onglii,;to undertalw this., reduction ; it had long ~bee,i4t4l.apetl,,liy:ihe organs. of public opinion that the.time-was t aot7dfayint •when, the interest at the debt. shoUld'he'reauf.4; . .and 44 epinimt was confirmed by his own attienti.ve consideration of the money market _cf ~t.tie;•,e__, 4 entey.i;.:',•lie_'..,• b erieved. that there . never was... Ft.-time ,vw I,:ienlEf; ; te a t „ii4f „capital', seeking einployment *:•a r s.greaterAiiin . lit, present,., That resulted from varknis.causiep.-Tlwra Was a large amount of capital - iilisumiililt.4d Al.. tai - e industry, of :individuals, which was greater in.,:tlii4Leoui4a,in3ectlnti years th an ever had been known _ it country 41411g-wprld: Another. cause was Ile,._rapti -AA security • in: , j f qx .,;,, n 1 investments;frOtri which not even the inpUrao,., e 6;i ti be obtained, and ther.firnsnes, of/. tiny security in the funds. of, this -country, which in 04* ", not only b e y " yr( childredteitifOsktheir catiktal, blzt . .,lir9witAc k ti l e cov i t a of Other Countites„.l:filio evidence 41j t4e abun dance. o f - *aft "tir ; .hound in; the.price ;which ,set mrities bore , at.. present - ; . :end ''. it, was . .notorious ! that the holders . of ce,4915,... at , preSent , dertiyeff: little more -. tb4tl -4 Is.) per4ipilt, ,and t4pgpvZxcbequer Bills, lit ik. in 1, ,; 777-1 - - - ,795e kr .47 9 4144-I.e•S f-Pt*'. ItliFiltsctrue ,that Prillitesl9,Tl, ilties .P.ye t ik, ' greater, „interest,; :l and that was 4atural,„,,for, - the ,4eilurity,,pf : itie,,nation ' wg:4 necessarily greater tl!tut ~ , that, ;Of a, privaW :-,i udi vid nal. - But:iioti e itthat4 ,l- 41!..ug ;a's!, l 4Rfal?lo stateinf!the money mai-kat, there migli,t belcireumstances arising to cause thisi facility. of acquiring. ts),)ket*,that t night t urn ou t onry,if ,:a t ,tpialloraTi•-diar4ctg- .1! AA :YAM , he'. looked• arottild, 1 1 4 117; °,4.44 ,/!t w : ibk:g.'wd 4ndentanding which existed ,betwe,ea , this ..-eountry accV all foreign nat ion s ,.._*h on h'er iali, th4bentinued influx, day by day, of the capital of other cpuptries into this—when he,saw the, reviv al of trade, ',industry, : and• commerce, - in all - ?arta! of the w'crld..-when r : ;he thus, saw. all countries PeCified; and - reflected on. the un tiring. energy .of his .own 7 --he would not - anticipate anything, w hich should . forbid the attempt, which he' called upon the House to Assist hint in making-, to reduce the burthens of thq country.: There was another essential • clement ia„ - the ;consideration! of this ~ ~.. • , . - i ~ . matter,, and th*,,Viits.. the lime: SI% hid* the changeAvas proposed, to be -lataaS , -la tire'when :the revenue promised them So much` assistance. e felt, what heTvvas stir@ every membet In 01at.,110114 fek,:that that , fitato)*lticVhad not the means of degrayl , its ;eurrkurexpencliture by' .. its current means, :wit _ ,in.,,it,be year,: , was .- not in a state 'to ~..46;t1 ,;:adynntageously)! with : its'- ourtlie . na and bbligitions. Its .- mewres. ' would. be . greatly erjpplqd,:, 414 a - ) Goyernpient.' so sitiij ated must be compelled :tg .- foree'9. :advantages'," which, under another and a hatter . sta7c..of thingi, - it. would be right and expedient to avail themselves of.'' , He wit - haPPYt; if P.., ). 1145._ (b.apiiy-1*44 ',he:. to `pay so - just - a tribute tk;,411 4 .,, jiousaik,bia_(;oubn he was then addrsssing)—he was happy to say did pot,howeVer, think that the proposal was asifavMir -7 able to the public creditor as had been generally ex pected. He did not mean to Eay that -the present plan might not be carried out; he hoped'it might, but there would be great difficulties in working it. He would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman how-he proposed to levy the income-tax on annuities:for ten years, and on per manent annuities? . - • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, of course theincome•tax would be levied on all species of incomes. He could not sit down without expressing his ' thanks to the Right Hon. Gentleman , opposite, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, in particular, and to. Hon. Members opposite ' for the very kind manner in which thethitd received his proposition. They had laid aside party warfare, .which was at times essential to the inte reits-litthe country, but the absence of. it on a matter Ike this- Must have. .a - very beneficial effect in.enlisting public confidence in- favour of the arrangements, and be naateriailY conducive•to the public welfare. iMr.Br i - RWITT inquired if there were any-contract between the'Bittak of -England, and the Government,' to the effect that the Bank 'should pay off the dissentients. The - CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Cer tainIy net—The.resolutions were then agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed a resolution embodying the provisions of former/tuts' of Parliamint for paying off the dissentients:--Agreed to. The egAIEMAN then reported progress, and the - House resumed., . • GRIEVANCES :OF `.PEOPLE. On the question that the .1-I() use itself into a Committees of Supply, • _ - •. _ . 1 i . h - tit by their exertions in the year. 1842-4 y their allewing, all ,persons. .a limited. t time . to, expreSs their energy, foresight, and 'determinatiOn-they had been dissent fro 6 the terms offered:. With:respect to that able to place the revenue.of the country on a footing to brand: l. ' 6 f the stocks which was created - 1814, I shall Meet the exigencies of. the service. They had now got prbeeed 'as. has been always .eustomary; and I shall call a revenue more .than equal. to their expenditere, and on the. House to resolve, that the holders shall be paid they were thereby enabled tOl•eap the 'advantage's which off. The periods which I propose to fix upon are a firm. adherence to aprinciple ofthat nature was ever sure the 23d of *Maieh, fir ihoie in England ; the 22d of Oc to giVer,•ind thiii realise to the country the benefit not tober, for those in, Europe -; and the Ist of February, merely of a temporary reduction of 'a few taxes, but of 1845, - fOr'iliase out of Europe. :Under this arrangement the permanent oblig ations of the . State. He had said -if I' should' succeed in carrying it into effect-the im that the income of the present year was more than suffi-‘ mediate .saving; to the public,. from- the 10th of October dent to meet the Charges of that year. So far as thetWo wi11'be,..025,000/. a year-and in the year 1,84, When last quarters were concerned the excellent ,state of the re- the second. reduction will take place, there ,wlll he a venuewas shown hydoctiments already on the table of the saving 0f . ..625,000Z. more. This gain will be effected: without House.. 'The..Miise would find by the papers thathad been any disturbance of the public credit-without any,limita laid before it; that, at the commencement of the last year the tion of the capital ' - of • the country- 1 -or any embarrais balance in the ,hands of the Governinent was 1,400,0001, ments of commercial dealings: 'The relief to-the country While,.. at 'th9., termination of..`it,.. it was - upwards of will be more certain than could.he obtained ,by any at; 4,700,000L-(Hear,: hear.) lam happy (continued the temp t to gritSp . at'lminediate advantages, by throWing a Right . Honourable Gentle Man) •to inform the House por tion' of 'the • PubliC tUrderit upoii"the public 'creditor. also ' that, speaking 'at the present moment, I. can I trust that-I,haveclearly . explained the .principles en state to, them . that there are no deficiency bills which • x - , intend . to.. tiCt. . There, is, . however,.. another of theliankunsa4istied, . We, are free at this quarter important point connected with this arrangement, which from repaying those advancei made by the Aank for the I think: tit ' nectssarrto explain` to the House. It 'is purpose-of meeting.the demands for the public service., well-known. to those who 'have paid attention to the I. can,alsn state that,. since the sth April last, it has not finances Of, the country,' 'that hitherto considerable in • been necessary to apply to the Bank for advances in an.. convenience has' been occasioned' in• respect to currency_ ticipation of the votes of the House of Commons. So far and credit on Account, of the,great inequality in the pay is these things are concerned, however useful they may be molts' Of 'tile interest ofthe , debts in'ditferent quarters of in themselves„'yet they are calculated to cripple the the year. At the present moment the '.amount of the Government. I can assure the Bonse that from those debt on which' the interest is required. to be paid in the. eneheihranceswe are at the present moment free. I qUartera andu; ig...Jantiary and :filly, •is 534,000,0004, will : also,. point the attention ,of the House ,to this whereas the amount•of debt on which the • interest is fact,' that i , the amount ,of the , _ untended _debt paittinf'Apiiirand October is' 216,000;000/.. - This in-. at this . - moment :is --- less, • than •it 'has ' been equalit y necessarily prodtieed'great fluctuations in the for many _ ,antecedent years ; • that: the . amount monetary affairs of the teuntry.' 'I therefore think it of Exchequer-bills is only, between eighteen and nine- ~ my duty to•take the oppbrttinity of eqtialiaing the • pay teen millions--..-that they bear an interest of 2145,:percept. • men tof the, dividends, so. that ,en each occasion the srek and that,. at-the present moment, they bear a premium marid'for money may be. about the 'Same amount. ' And .of 73e,..• • LoOking, therefore; at the growing wealth of this for this reason I prope.ae that the' diVidenda' . en, . all the , country, looking at -- its . capital.- considering .. .its vast new.itock.shall•be paid ; 91 1 V in April. ,and in October. resources, looking at, the -contimiance of its: friend- Those who Intie hitherto been paid.up - to October. will ly relations with tOreignPowers, considering thatthe re- have:their half-year to receive in,-October next... Those . venue - has recovered from the temporary di ffi culty.under . who have , usually . -. been. paid 'in . January will have which it laboured-considering, that we are free from only , Z . rie , :quarter in October ; so' that . 'all • the new. unfunded . and, floating debt, I think' that I debt 'Mak ttart• from th6.loth of • October next: 'After have made out a case to this 'House, to show, that the warnsthere *ill' be two equal divisions. of payment;time has arrived when those who have the management which, in inyenlition, Will_ tend materially to the aavai a the financial affairs of the country should make an tage and inter.'est of the telintry.-(lleir, hear.) I know attempt - to redtfee' the interest on the..national debt . not that it. ,istieceSsarY•ter •me to say any more: .If it The debt we have to deal with on this occasion amounts be my happiness to carry '.this. measure.: successfully ;tonearly,2so,ooo,oool:. and consists of four-sevetalkinds through o .it'will be one of .the most gratifying circutn `of'stock. . The first is the.:Three-and-a-Half per Cent. -stances in.my.life.to be able to reflect that,. on tWo.seve .Stock, origimillyereated in 1818, which is the foundation ral occasions-in th . eyear_lB3o and in the present year of stip&' .of this. description and amounts to' .10,000,000/.. -I ' reednimeniled'OTarliainent a Measure 'with respect The next ;is '.the . Reduced Three-and-a-Half per Cents., toa reiltictienin:chirtinintal burdens, 'which 'cannot but being • a stock which was first established 'in the year . meet with the approbation .4. the country it is so well 1760; • originally as a. Four per. Cents_ .Stock, added to - calculated to'hetiefit and tcl'telieve. "'But however great [at various periods, and reduced to Three-and-a-Half my "gratifieatiOn'thi this ground; there is Still, a 'higher per .Cent.: in 1824, when Lord Ripon was Chancellor of gratification which I feel„ heth .aa r n. -sinister and an the .Exchequer. -It amounted to 67,500,0001. The next is Englishinan, ' that this , measure . affords :. an , irre-. the Three-and-a-Half .per Cents. originally.' f u nded fragible '.. proof of the resources" ,ef :this _coati:- in 1784, at .5 per cent., and which. has,. in the gradual try; • :'.; And ,-- that, with - reference . to . 'other , Loom progress of. the country, the 'growth of capital, and tries, it shows the mighty advantage s w hic h ever confidence. in our. own resources, undergone .two attend ,it - littered' regaid"tn" - the ''Obligatinns of , national sevetaL reductions-one._ in 1822, - ; - When • Mr. - Van- honour and' - gotillfaith:-:-(LetitTeliebri:) -lire have sittart was Chaneellor •of . the' Exchequer,. ' from in one time.to struggle with ) great difficulties-we .have five - per cent to four ; and - the other in 1830, when hactniatilr ardtlOVS:ColiteStS, many bitter reverses to,con- . I had the - honour of holding the office .I now fill, and .tena'against-difficulties . WhiehlitiVe made the strongest when it was. further reduced 'to •Three;ind-a-Half, per minds to.. quail-but ) we,have ostereeme.. andtriumPhed Cent., at which •it •has , ever . -since' remained- ':- The - lest over them All,:and )that.lbY a 6 1111 0% ' but' , sacred,- iallie- StOckiw the one. called• the Old Three-and-a , Half - per ' rence to the principles of national honbur and the nbli- Cents., which was an Irish Stock. created in'l7:37, and had gatiots of phblic faith:.;•(HeTrir.).-: , .nfm-^, ! ' ."" :•, . • been from • .time to time augmented to the sum of .. '3l-i. , llLEWlTTltheir , rese•46 aildreis , :the House,but 14,600;000C ; :the whole amount of 'these' stocks is - was met with lned cries of " Order, order.") . 249,600,000/4' 'or; in round numbers, nearly the amount Mr. OittERS-,'thethaiimaii- of .thireinnitttee - cif Sup lat • first Stated. Notv it might, certainly, have been ply, -- then` ree,d - the resliltittont from the' table. -'• " • legally correettO - have dealt separately with these •sepa- Mr. V. BAll.ING• said it , gave hirli, much pleasure to rate , branches of the'Threesand-A-Hilf per -Cent. Stock ; be able .to - state that he had heard-.th e proposition. Of • the but-I conceived thatthis•couise, though' legally correct, - Hon; Gentleman with the greatest satisfactiOn.-,--(llear, would be essentially unjust. I thought itsvould not be be= hear.) He should be very ; ; sorry' ya any difference of coming in a great.emintry .tke_this totake! Advantage of opinion pre v ented him frOm.expressinghis..approva). of a one or -two partieular branches of stock being - of ' sniall ' plan-lailk-adrantageoui.to.the country., .-He spoke only' of amount, and' to call on the prop rietors wh6 have invested . the :principle of the plan -;.- whether the terms were.' ade theit money •in these funds to 'submit 40'a re- quate tobarrying , out that principle - remained' betwiten duction,- which . ;! -from their .!being small lin . num- the holder ef-the"sfOck - and- the Right 'Hon. Gentlenran• ber, they eould not resist.:: I- have, 'therefore, WitierespeCtlo the' plan itself, he thought it wad' dne recommended that'the same rule should be applied to all) beneficial' in' Many 'respects:- (Heir; . hear.) First,. it these stocks, and thit the reduetion - of interest shall ,he -I hartliis 'great advantage; that it' did:rietereafeany ad made at . ' once 1 , upon-- , ' the .': whole of "them. dition to the:debt.; that was in itself' a verygreat id-. With 'respect to 'these' stocks; there -is I some dif- . vaninge; He thought` also; a very : honest. plan. for fermice- -• in ' fi . the . :circumstances' -in - Which . they , a Chanc ell or. of the Vicuhectiter.to propose..4-4eheers and: stand;' 7 ' , Three 'of 'thein are absolutely at the disposal of laughter.) The Right Hon.. , -Gentleman, might: have Parliainent, to deal wi t h_ ... ai'-ib.ttbil*s fit;' but one - of ' made the reduction of the - iuterest'iminediate ; and this , •I:hern, the Three-find-a-Half Or Cents'. of 1818, ' stands . advantage7stiti-Incsligelit one to a Chanceller , Of' - :the EX in a different situation. : When that 'etOck was created,' Chefitter.- - -(Oheelle. - ) - T"There Was alsel'another adVati the holcierireeeive&atiehnrity that their interest should tageiislar WS privide indiVidUals ieereConeerned ihe be fibe pnid theintill'isgs; that the . T,shOuld'ltaie Six Months' • lieved •the interest was to be ' reduced ' one -uarter notice, fore. 'an y redaction' redactiOn - Ofinteres4ST redemption of Per ient., -- at::oncle;: 'with * - 'probability -- "OT a reduction stook tOnkAilnee-„ IA thirdly thifiliey"'sthotild not be of one quarter"perktentlmore at a future time ;. they paid .off 'in sum "Of Tess than t)i`s,oo/. :it a time. thus reduced : the' ineomeS . . - eit 'private individuals in the .In anyairialgenient' Which may be entered . into, lam least - incenteillent. - Way possible. : On ) another tMpg he sure that the ITtimie will go along with 'me _when . I - de- could net help expressing the' 'utrno4 f . Satisfaction,; 7 the dare, 'that ' we' ; onglif'to 'adhere to' every - 'engage- plan WOUl4o:onfy be an advantage 4 Ourselves, , but meat' • - into' Which we' hate; enterea; . • and - to ' give would giin * others -a, practiced - lesson' that honesty. and to -the- ' holdeti'' - cif "that - 'stock ' every . - advantage' good faitb; etealindertthegreatest.difficulties,had!their tol Which they lire entitled under - the - provisibnief the pecuniaty.adviantages r its Well as the benefit to be derived stattip..-(Cheera.) 'We :are . bound -to adhere to the from opinion-rot 'the - world atlarge;-(Cheers.) strict letter. of our agreernent',with - .. thent:.;-(Cheees.) - He 'could - onirtaye; - - id , sitting 'down that he wished the If'we':lbok - for precedents - as - to' he 'manner in Which most hearty"Suecese . to. the' Right ': ' lion. Gentleman's Oda"conversion :inv . :be bieught . about, - we shall : scheine.,!-(lieid•theerS y 'particularlY - from th e Ministe 'findthat. Eti . 'Varitinlis . times - different plans have . been rialsbenclieo o '- -n ~ 5 . ', -.- ' .. .•.', ! adopted - AU:tiler - eirctire - stanees. In' Cu "nic' cases Sir ‘JOIIIR . ,#AV:REID said qiething had ever given advantages' hayb been . ' "given to 'the' holders :of • the, hini„i#eater44.e.itieire than the • p l anner in which' this higher 'stock, in - order to - Induce - them - to ' accept of - an question had been received. He thanked the Right amount in the lower stock in the place of that which they Hon. Gentleman opposite - for . the - liberal And handsome held in the higher. -. .These advantages have been 'or a • maKtneXJ irrwhich ,he had:spoken. Aletfelt ithat feeling different nature. In •561 . 116 cases 'a would lie: pecuniary - beaus has beien proposed to the holder s of the higher stock, thus.. the IfOldert'of Threetatid-it Half per Cent Stock would . augrnenting the . actual ainoun t of the - debt . while 'it 'general in that-House, land he' war sure that ' be •highly • jgratified(Cheers . and''.laitgliter)-' . -at the 'diminished the interest of it. . In ether 'cages an en- manner• in which the phuih -- sid 1;'04 PrOPOseB.. Under gagement has' been entered into with the -holders of the - all the , :dttairnstaii9es,:4o, th;otight: it Was,MoSt liberal, and higher stock, that no further reduction of interest should, he had'o6 - hPSit,atiOi,',ln,stating his • firm belief - that it take'place until after a given time. ' The HOUse must be 'would - e . almosePCt.. Y 4. l 4d,PuPrelY, apeeptable. .lle aware' that many,Plans have been proposed in. the differ- had;riepe) accused on :* former occasion of having been .ant organs Of puhlie oplieien, forthepurpOie,Of effecting. too .sanguine.. -.(A laugh.) .. A 'late. Chancellor. of the' : r. the,rednetien . WhiclalnO* . prepeee to. aceeinplish,.. and E2,cchequoritchowasalow a Member of another House,had ' each of' the;sP;,gana' has its peeuliar..advantagei and - itemised' hint. bf , :having!matle , vise: of a , . metaphor.-(A 'advantagei, ; The House will agree With 141-hi:mover, - ' laugh.)- •Ilei(gir J. H. , Iteld) , had , stated that the dis.- .thialf g ..in being; of PPinion *that all these, -plana.reselVe tresiewits:Mereiy n iSsing cloud.-(1t-) 'lle now lhefesAlvea 'IA> throe eaSes, which are open:for onradOp- sawlielbiis, the a• riglitiiir, and he hoPe d they would i Lion. The. fi iStease is to give to every hOlder'ef Three-. ',soda, ' **lived eatl e tindlauglifet.)*And. - ,ita lea el f ' liticCit=HalT - pei , '‘Ceht.. Stock an :equar.iitineunt ,in the enee'vvti, . d. - : l4e telt ; : 7 / - COntinued laughter)- . ..:;and ' they - Three per-Cent.,Stock , itis lading to the capital, of the wont - irk' 'heroic 'lt.Willi.jarbiperiti And snecess.-(Roars debt:. The;Seeond.Plan is. to..creats ..a . TWO.arid- a-HUH of langEter,),,, -:- ' ',:`' .1' •!, ic!",i ."' !,..... • • . . per Ceiit stockfor the holders' of everY.'loo/. Three-and- , Mx. P.. -14.... STklir...kßTriiiiiiught •thdt the. Chancellor a-Ilalf pei , Cent Btock; and giVe them. Sueli4tit. amount of theißtelußnier had:exerciSed.a..every'aotincl . judgment 'of . the-Two-'antl4:Xilf Pee' Cents ,Stnek„ as 'would, give , in proposing.' the: plan :whiele 'l4 ihdlisubmitted to the' them' aninerease'or - per ,rcpt ! .txPon :the capi4l th e y /- liouSe t - :''.'lle'llidcalsci 'shown no incohsiderable , perti4ref have -already, invested in the Three aufl 7 a.fl t alf per : . Cents,.l Self , 4lenit& iThd pr6ierif holders Of itoble kW beetcsnb- The.thiraplan, is,. to :reditc.e, tli - ,T'llree 7 .and - ,,.a-galfiper,• jetted to a less reduction than they svoUlfeftipie b99'n Cents. "t 6 -- Three-and=it:Qtiarter Per,(ents. ',The; Object subjected to uncles tiliii , i)tgi.!4aQiiie; ,i'filFit - 2.*J, c1... 1 10Ye otall these plans being.. to . ' effect a reductieiket the in- been !piols4;sedi' '''T.iiir'e 7414 'lol . o'_priiotr bf the `gta(entent terest,att.pr_ went ;pnyahle pa... thu debt , from : Siker cent. ' of the Al i ght llen.', s oelitleffilAbl; ViVeiVki, agaiittWhieh te3.per t egut,, 44 Is, gripossible,to,deny but that each of he ''Thu ' h ifft4',_ . _,'lll.7'..",titr r oiPii i ." . ,' The . -Right -21-Inii: these .plans, has,.ita peculiar advAntage; and,.po,dopht ‘2,,rieh GentletWi r 'r)l4" - idNd.cd. . to. , An:, manner, t in 'which plan vi ii! 'fi.nil its advocates; but - I think, 'before X tho - rOtii - . tr . ,":,C - ente. „.W,ii:;:iw k etk,.,..rean•c e a - , by Lord s tate f tkelilan ~whiclu iikr,Opose - that the liousie..:_lhouldi Ripc.A.,ftt, • _ . it ,t,.inie , tliat; , 7lo . 2 . 3tas ,httneellor i Of. the adoPt r i jti,pronld •be well. that, I' should : lay ;down .Exehequerib „Thellight llon.:Gentlemanr'shotild: reeol ' the principles which I.- have adopted-, .in, • review- feet the statements which had been made by . Lord Ripon ing thejeyeraL plans. to., .which ~I: _ have' . alluded, . 1 on .`that Oceuibii,,dnd whiell.lrad Pidetired for ' filth- the I think it my duty, as tiw.egft4ls QF .the-,publio ;debtor, l . name of " yres - potity .1 - tobiripc/P:7, lie 'hoped the ;Eight to, secure the public eredity,ith; the gmatout,posAihle:ad_ llon7;Grentl46J6i- would ,he't. 'be' misted by 'appearanCes. vantages, consistent with-a-due,regard-for the interests No data th'Wivat g s giqiitlleat of money lathe:Market, o the Statn, l' My. first:duty iffy to the public; Whoeh ser- and in consequence of its_pienty,___the Rii,, , lit Ilen'O en- IcaPtj. l Mniiink.l feel that it iiverfittly,:possiblettolgeon % tleman had been able to•make his, present arrangements, copeue that duty With the regard that is due to the:in- nbus,-that arose. front the valueless state pf money in this thre.44:9f-indkvidualsq. who:lend • theirinioney. - , Ir do not . country, at PiPe 4 t , : 7 Trade in general ;was in a state of think it would be just,ln purchase great advantages at the . the_,g,reateat. „ A t egaa ts6a . ; : and hence the rush of exppn se of burdeeing .7thcise who will come after us: With: unemployed money to. :the public. , . funds, which respect to debts incurred liV time aal.!war, it.is perfectly. had raised the_.price_...and......enabled-tha Honour- Jair_and legitimate that-posterity 'should bear a Share of: aide Gentleman to propose his present plan; but he those burdens by which .the - empire was - extended-oi-it& :warned:Om Right Ifou:',Gentletnin against - believing that :: ;9 : . stence preservedGOlMititn 'ffieur,an additional debt in the :eentut i ry4o4 in a:-: prosper ou s s t a te ; : A revival of .ti p..,nlpeacei'. - .Ancl.to!throW: that burden on thbse .'w.hia7 trade was:Much- needed,• and the present stiperabund le co afier : .us; _Wahl a viers that.: weiiniapobtain, great , ante - uf money was-no, alp of prosperity. .1Ie• highly present advantages, for the purpose of relieving otirselees;. , approved of the proposal of the 'Chancellor of the Ex . is a coursPwhichl need not say .r - reprobate, because; I- chequer, as he considered' it would not: only conduce to em sure hattust he universally disagreeable, to all who the profit of, the country,. ,but' that by its. adoption. the :consult the true interests 3 =oUthe ' email' . But Sir, I character. and credit of the country, which were still more have Co" call upim•thellnuse to 4tdope I a course ' which, I valuable; would be materially strengthened.-(Ch eers .) , trust, Lwill be "able to satisfy them-' of the propriety. of Sir - J: . . expressed his: admiration •of the .pnrsuing...'lt Must - .: be ObviouS toi.the Honsethat•if the plan which had been proposed to the House.. A more Three-aridat-pidtper _Cents,were. reduced' O 'Three, per just, a More. simple, or.a . ..more certain! plan, 'could not Cents., by giving an amount of Consols, it would be ne- have heeh devised.-L . (llear, hear.)• Whether he regarded ceisarfintheoperaticin to do . what was: done- in 10?-L.L. the justieecir.the p/an,in reference to the money market,. to give aibonus on ther.Three per Cents., for the pnrpose , its simplicity, as being . divested of - all .kinds of coin .of insuring operation.. - Considering the present price_ if pleicity, .or the Certainty of its meeting, with genera" ac the Funds, and the necessity of endeavouring tO•secure a . ceptanee in the.conntry, he thought. the plan equally en conversion, the country would be obligedtostibteit to ad- - titled tp.aarniratiOn.-.(Cliecrs.) This 'was one or, those' ditionideapitallet froni.i0;000,000/.' to 12,000;004 Of debt, - occasions On: which. party feeling should subside--:( Hear, Alibuglithe immediAte -reaultilvekild: be a saving to the pub ..% hear)-and. he-,congratulated the House and the Right lie of between 80 . 9,0399/. and 900,090/. On'the principle Hen: Gentleman on the general ' concurrence which the .laid down of savi n g' are ereiret justified - bkaidding-to the' meastirownselikely to•reeeive. ••••- • , ' . -•' . • - - .mass oldebt;though:theireteediateresult ef the saving to • Mr. W:"WIY,LIAMS - felt great pleasure' in eXpressing the public would be hetween'soompt, and 90.0,600 i: - Foi -his unqualified Apprebatien of the planwhich ,had'. just however at the presentinoment some; gentlemen T aight_ been submitted to' the' Heuse.- 1 -(Laughter and cheers.) '. think its matter of 2indifferiee to what amount par:delif . lle thoiight the plan. was liberal, in the , present state .of WAS extended, being, as it wa r s , ! 700,9.01:40.404,*-yet- still - the•mouey, iniirket,,.to thp holders :of Three-a r li - alf , t . ,a l i ie d, ,fu i ; h ii,r e c i o f n u d ,o lt w io e ti: r,e. Of ,e4 , .. :i,ft tl o i g 'i et. ou t n i t n ij . Pihoeld 'be lOolted to ; per *Cents, 14 refanttedthat.the Right Ilon. Gentleman WarS";the debt Whi had not proposed to •L redueecAhe interest on Exchequer N i vl t .: 3 l : l 7 reck lessly contracted • rnie.ht 'becoMe a ruinous Bills . tolfeb instead.' of 14(L...-per day. There had been ~ . , and . detrimental to , the b est . interests' .of the', otnerperiods" of 'abundance of money which were as country s ir, sir, the other plan Tethiln' 63 - 110 • -cuniidered; ' transitory as lie lfeire4 -this was ' likely be. • Prices I'whhrioctltigiislt.h,theoirn.v:rechidesinti7tic_,,otiifie.a 11' ired l and , a-Ilalf per. Cents. would-soon rise,' the exchanges would turn against us, will c in the: fi rstins-iiren • that .aritingement‘ - undeeibtedly'• . T.hree:iink.ii-Qiiarter per Cent. 'and the "itatPOrthingS - would. he reversed. . • Stock,. that is. Mr. A 1 dern) au TI1O)IrSON believed that the unusual to the public; but , but va. againste, be a' ditninistud'aiiinint savine. .abutidanee of money Wag ;oecasienedhy the: distrust of there :wig be no TiMrease- Of ' • 't,?b„ s e c et.the fast-the, ilie:J3:4 l ; B 4,.Pnlelie.in'ibreign securitieN .epevially North. moreover; this adilitienal adt;t e iL t4 e '''''e'f4'o'l-e.,,Wile, 134;'; menti shalt pent:lose' totheliiiiihe -j il:ir ti e t l'i American. He expressed his grateful acknowledgments i c hc arrange - .:. „io the_Government, - f pile . alterations. introduced by further ifedtkitien which Will git,e itauft • i r 2 14P„.._futurb - the Chatieeltur-or . the Exchequer, 44, - .hethough,i , the ad vantfigd , hi - point . of:annual hie° ' ':..-2,1111,-acTeased • holdersof pr'AO-and-a 1 .114 per cents. would : bp: much vantage So Mtn+ =the more ralittabgt:e i. ti t-l e ef to s9 ti g 4 h a(l i - t . biteitgt4tltleonaT ass ° they .. had ; anticipated. -f He thought the ,pountry fill 3 receive the f l ti' may net be brolight so' apply' s 6 inithedia a t ePy 't : t o 'the .... Hon.: had exercised a sound discretion •iiiii‘lducing the Three-and-a-Half per Cents.oue-fourth: seurces of the country, .the value of the whole . reduction, without Any ebnittervailing-' , t thv...IIAAVES felt happy in expressing his satisfaction disitilientage: The plan; therefor.e, Whichl,sliall ri'ro - - - ,at e, propo sition .of the Government. -With regard to .inatq er atibrii of the dividends, which were so inti pose to the .I.lnlJSeWill be-. tins :e.-" Thai era; it favlei . 4) ; 4 . coacted with the . fin . atieial a ff air's of this coun . Three-and -a-mdf per .Cent:' Stock sha ll receiv e . et litre- try,, t. e,_ . tho ught the arrangement was one 'of, great amouitrii.e . ' Three4iid-a-Qiatrfe;:. per Cent. Stok,cyn' nditelijp_rac ico.,iinportinee. • Ile tipped the Right, Hon. Qen iiiteist et• the' rate of" th,r,fif - Ond -61 -79 mClitg:rPir4el;l4l.Pefr . tlenian fully appreciated! the absence .:of anything.- like annum . .!halt be paid 'nntd - the •10th 0 f ,C1# 41144. 1 1 8 , 5 ' . 1 .. il party feeling on that side of the House • When the. Go -1 shall fur i t s h s e .4; i• p b t ropt'' pe, ,r‘ giving ten years during athich.. the three-Aiid-n. i gearte r . i . vernment - introduced .measures of sound, . practical per cent. will 6 payable Upon, 'the ; stockip westion, ,titility,.....they • • might depend - upon it, that Hon. Gen - y three "T hat and aft4i- tliftdialf VA i tlernen On hi side of the House would give them their October, . 4 , i0 , : n ti t. terest lo . be tc 1 „ shah .be at tkrfite,; 'entire'stippert . 11 . e,:(Mr.: Hawcs), would on certain '':so b 4 ing"at'tlib ; rit -- te' - ef °7.' Y ''' u • 1.11444 . - t hi s. , ,, ,, toc hx. ; , geestiesis.avew . linuself and act as a party man; but when ranteed ap 'Ai' ,_ . three : per cent., ` sliall 1,4l , 4 ("kat- . any great:pine .raeasure was introdSeed, party eonsi can - "2/ flu 'her reduction for . .twenty ' ,leers', deratiOns: must :at iniee'giive way, t o ,tll4 -promotion of the after - that,fieiiiid;" This' stock therefore will remain' •at !. country'swelfare. -,- (Hear.) ~ . ,•.,..,,; .T,. , • , ~ t hree-atid-Aluarter .p,er ~cOnt. until , 1854 . . will remain . at three . pe r .' c 'e nt . 1. ,, • - ;it ' Mr- W. ARBURTON. thoroughly agreed in the coin be thei r 'mproveinent in the financ es ad been bestovved on the proposition until -1874, vhawyer may_ inendation , which h , 1 should _ , I . 9t. but t theiame dine . t i whatever ay be •tlie reduction a nfthe court! ,s 4 the. Gevernment,_,• a _ low PPued , to•ether petal° ibe forg otten that it was the rate of profits which .0f the national debt.-(Markz, ut s '• ' . - ns '' ' - • utrPnaeefellovred: by' t en abled Ministers to make this proposition; and; the low laughtei - ; tin - tho:Oppositic , ll benches ' • ' ' •' • ' there faith toplaced ~ -I.lk thetaidst. of ! rate of profits was, it were any be -. i • 'lv hick-senr / lion:Members. ruse mut:left thcl li • ' •-I ' • • ' Mr• if .Mr Malthus, ttr' ' - '' • '', • - - (4 . l se-;).1 tit gig, opiniens of .. if .ardo r or ~ , a 4 - I . harri l y expeetcd :an d ' &ether.. _,L•tkri t .'49itir(l4,ltglite4:i. .butahle•to the eorn-laWs. ' , . .., , , Thedtringen/thifg innstik t riiiete in the -niOde in which i • Mr. RICARDO congratulated the Titirlit2dif.'cieff=' all similar arrangements nave been made before, by tleman on the plea he - had laid before the kleoe. He .. fr., S._ CRAWFORD rose. for the purpose of pre . sentinF several petitions, complaining that the House did tot fairly represent- the opinions of the people, and that ° they were not adequate to the voting away of the pub lic money. The BOIL gember presented petitions to this effect from Aberdeen, and from' the ,inhabitants of BridpOrt; and other - places. . THE;:.; UN,II4P N\PD INTS. SATURD A 1 E31.#14 DWG, MARCH 9 5 18443 .7 -- -. -- 7- --- - §III S PLY.. The Order of the Day for 'going- into' the Committee of Supply having been again.read, ; , .-.- -:. - Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD said he would only' do tain the House for one moment, whilst he expressed his inten tion not further to persevere in his efforts to stop the grant of supplies until the grievances of the people had bees redressed. He had persevered as far as he could; but in ceasing to perse vere he wished it to be understood that he protested againsathe competency of that House to make laws so long as the great body of the people were unrepresented in it. He admitted he was not backed by a sufficient power of public opinion.to make it desirable for him to continue his efforts ;'• but he wished it to be understood that whenever that power of opinion should, in his judgment, be sufficient, he should renew his endeavours. With this protest he should not further attempt to binder the House going.on with, those supplies which the exigencies of the public service were:said to require..-(Hear, hear.) • • The House then went into the Committee of Supply. - ARMY ESTIMATES. • The first vote was for 158,2311: for defraying the charge of the General and Staff officers in Great Britain and Ireland, and foreign stations, except India, which was agreed to. with out any discussion. . The next vote was for 90,3081. for charges 'of allowance of officers of the several public military establishments of Great Tiritain. • ; . .' _ • . , Mr. WILLIAMS complained of the charge for the Com mander-ins Chief and his Staff being increased upwards of 2,0001. for the present year. He .wanted to know why the present Commander-in-Chief was allowed so much more than the last. Lord Hill, as Commander-in-Chief, received 9/. 9s. 3d. a-day, while the present .Commander-in-Chief re ceived 161.81. 9d. a':.clay. • Sir H. - HARDINGE said that the reason of the difference _was this, the one was a .Field-Marshal, while the .Other was only a Lieutenant-General. After some short discussion the vote.was.agreed to, as were also the following votes : • 13,468/. to defray the charge of the Royal Military College, and the Hibernian School. . - ' • 88,076/. for the volunteer corps. " , . • 1,6491. for the unpravided service of. former years. • 1a,9531. to defray thg charges fer the reward - of distinguished , .. services. , , - , . ... , • • 27;000/. to defray the charge of general officers. ' - The next vote proposed was for a sum of 62,3001. for defray ing the allowances of retired officers. ' • • - Colonel RAWDON wished to know whether there would be any objection, to permitting officera to retire on-a superior rank, with the alloWances only of the'renk which they then•held ? Sir HENRY HARDINGE thought there would be ierions erections to such a proposal. For instance, an officer, 'with the half-pay of a colonel, would have to support the rank of a . general officer.—The vote was then agreed to. The next' vote. proposed was for 450,3001. for half-pay mili tary_allowances. Colonel RAWDON suggested that the sums retained fOr the support of officers in hospitals, suffering from mental aberration, should, when they were dismissed from hospital, be returned to them.with interest. - Sir H. HARDINGE could not agree to the proposition. - Dr.. BOWRING said that 2,8131: was stated to be the sum arising from the sale of commissions. Was that the only sum received by the Government from that source? Sir IL HARDINGE said that it was. Mr. W. WILLIAMS, in allusion to what had been stated by' the Secretary at War as to • the saving effectedin the half paj', would observe that in 1622 the total expense of the army ways -.0,782,0001.; and this year' it was 2,20,000/. Ile thought a Mitch larger 'saving might have been effected- in the half-pay. Sir H. HARDINGE said - that in 1622 there were 9,744 officers on, half-pay, notithetants and non-combatants, and .the vote for half-pay for the year amounted to $07,811/. ; this year the , ntuallser of .officers on balf-pay was 4,032, and the half-pay amounted to 450,0001., thus showing a diminution in the neither of 'offcers' of .5,71 and in' the amount of half pa.- of 420,8281. He: should be -very happy to grant the Hon. G ntleman any returns on the aubject-he might wish. .. , • s it C. NAPIER said the Gallant Gene r al h a d g ive n them a eretty specimen of the mortality in the service, yet his' Hon. Friend did not seem to think they 'died fast enough. Mr. WILLIAMS hoped that the. ;returns would- show the 'number 'of officers on half-pay in 1816,11 well aiiia.lB2i' colonel R 4 WDON thought the Eight Hon. and Gallant :Gentleman must have misunderstood the question which he had put just now. 'He had meant to ask, if there would be any ob jection to allowing, officers' wholad . sold out to retain the rank whiai they herd an quitting the service? 1 ,• Sir HENRY .HARDINGE said the subject had been con sidered by the Naval and Military Commission, and they had deaded.thatit would not be proper to grant such permission, except in very extraordinary cases. The vote was them agreed to. • - : • The next vote of 4,932/. for the half-pay and pensions of fo reign officers, and for the allowance to the widows and children of foreign officers, was agreed to without discussion. The next vote proposed was for a sum of 141,6101., for pen sions to officers' widows. Lord lIOWICK wished to ask for some explanation respect ing the refusal of the pension to the widow of Colonel Fawcett, on the ground that her husband had fallen in a duel? Sir HENRY• HARDINGE said that the Gallant Officer opposite had given notice of a motion on the.subject for Mon 'day.and he thought that the discussion had better be postponed until that evening.: He would, however, go en if the . Gallant Officer wished to "take the discussion now." . Captain B,ERNAL—Nin ' '• - ' -.. Sir HENRY 'HARDINGE . would content himself with stating that he did not think that the circumstances_of the duel were such as to justify him in, redommendingthe.wiclow to her .-Majesty for a pension, and his Right Hon. Friend, with whom he,h,ad consulted, agreed with him in opinion. - • • . Captain BERNAL—Had postponed his motion till Monday, ,at . the request *of several Hon: and' Gallant Members. - He brOtrght it forward as - u distinct motion, hee:ause he _ doubted - • Whether the Subject would. meet with so much attention•as it, ~deserved, I( ik were only discussed incidentally in Committees of Supply'. ___,, ' -,.. s • ' ' , , Lord HOWICK Could not agree to - this - vote without some . •e.‘planation On the subject. He objected to asnetion such ai tht Of which the Hon. and Gallanthlevaberlsadgivennotice,ou the question being put that the Speaker do leave the Chair, con-. aidering AA he did that it was interfering - with the.pregress of publie,business. It was more constitutional and Parliamentary to discuss such a question in Committee of Supply, unless they were prepareato take the strong step of addressing the Crown on the subject of granting the pension .to Mrs. Fawcett, 'a course which he for one was not disposed to recommend. • He could not let the present vote pass without making some observe do 'on the subject , of the refusal of the pension. If the Go re lament were prepared seriously to - take up the question of du fling and' ta de 'all in their power to' discourage • and put doWn thatunchristian and improper practice, then he should •actiniesce in the necessity, however painful, of refusing the pen sion to Mrs. Fawcett. But if the Government were , not pre - - pared ad to deal - with thegeneral question, then the refusal of the pension to the widow of Colonel Fawcett' was, an act of great cruelty and 'injustice.--(Cheers.) ' Was it not manifest that officers Were 'frequently punished for refusing to go out to fight a duel? , ' Less than a year ago an officer had beensen tericed to be suspended from rank and pay upon- the finding of a court s martial for not taking steps to obtain immediate re dress for a gross outrage which-had been offered to him. Hd kneW' that he should be - told that the redress meant was tht which could' be obtained by ' applying 'at - the Horse i'Gdards. Nit he would say boldly that that was a mere eva •sioh.--4 Cheers. ) They all. knew that - the_ real redress, was that *birth was called demanding satisfaction.—(Cheers. ). He would ask the Judge-Advocate if• a sentence of a court-martial s hail not beep stibmitted to him without that evasion,', in which ,in officer had been Sentenced •triliuniihment for declining to fight a duel. The Right Hon. Gentleman •hact 'felt that a sentence in that shape was illegal, end' eould not be allowed to 'pass ; init. the fact of ' such A ' charge having been enter taieed bro 'court-martial, proved that what was really ex . peered of. an officer was--not, that he should, appeal to the lice-se Guards, but that he shoul d .takeredress into his . own harids.--( Hear, hear.) , If suchthiigs were allowed to go on in the army,•and no more effectual measures were adopted to, Pat down duelling, it would be the height. of injustice to re= fuse to the widow of an officer, who had fallen m•a duel, her i pension.; They might talk of. the difficulty of legislation on the subject, but it was - iri the Power of the, Government to ,prevent duelling in' the army .withont any legislative measure whatever." Let them make known-in en authoritative manner that - the. 'present system should -not ,be 'permitted to continue. Let them call upon all officers who had received, an ins it to 'submit their case to some superior authority.; Let a Court. of Inquiry be assembled to consider each case, and haring 'ascertained the merits of it, let them exercise the pre s rogative of ' the . Crown by pronouncing the -dismissal of the guilty party. Let them give .atuplemeana ter 'punishing per setis who,vvere ;nity of insults, which, under preseet, circum stances, must lead to a duel. lie would Also have it made, tr:nOsirn• that in 'every 'ease in which o ffi cers 'had recour s e to duelling, all the parties concerned, both principals apd aeconds, shnuld be dismissedthe service.. By these means they might ht down the great evil of duelling in the army. He 'did not believe that It *as impossible to put it down in the community 'generally. The first thing required was to mitigate the undue severity of the existing law. The killing a man in, a duel, although - nominally : a great crime, vas ,• a crime of a different' nature from that of murder, mid. required a ' different punishment. And it ,was on • account of 'the undue severity of the punishment inflicted by law, that the" law was not enforced. Let there be a moderate and, ust pueishineist inflicted 'by. law upon those who engaged in duels and let that law be uniformly and impartially , enforced: -Another step, which should, be adopted to do away with the • necessity .of duelling; was to give to ,persons who had been in 'suited some means of Obtaitilng proper redress from the legal tribunals of 'the %Country. . He did not think .there would be. difficulty in fruiting 'some law that would enable any person -who'' might be insulted to obtain redress proportionate; to, that ,insnit 'in .a:ctoirt of law. As he said before, there were two courses open to her Majesty's Government—either they might allow things to remaiwas they 'bad hitherto been; _and if they did=if they would shut their eyes to the practice of duelling, and do 'nothing morethan connive at its existence, then they ought to grant the pension to Mrs. Fawcett. • The other course was, that they should set . themselves-seriously to work to put down the practice altogether not ..to_look • over a case of duelling, whoever , might' be:the - parties ,concerned. They could - not 'forget the case lately of a person in a high and distinguished stations-:a" station: made - the' ;offence infinitely' .more • aggravated than' itoould be in amilitary officer. , In that most ' remarkable case; he • thought that -the high authorities before - whom it had'been brought. had'acted improperly.. The ,Go vernment had passed iiver that offence, which bad attracted so • 'flitch notice, as one of the .nrost vestal crimes--in such con duct there was no consistency. esOne line. or the other ought_ to :be -adaptesie Ishar-isughtuto .act -.impartially against all offenders ; or, if not, they ought not to be guilty of what he • nnist consider 1 thee cruelty and . injustice of ;refusing to the ''widow of one of the unfortunate victims of this most unhappy system the - pension •which; it. VV a s Very possible, -her circum •stances might render Most particularly necessary. . • • ' Captain .BERNAL didnot‘consider himself open to the lec ture which the Noble Loid the Member- for ,Sunderland! had - theughtit „to read' hini Oti , cc:institutional law. ' He had eons 'suited other gentlernehi - who were . as competent: to: give an• opinion as the Noble Lord; epos :the nOurse he had adopted, and nothing had fallen front the Noble Lord.in the course of his speech kwhieiCsvOtild hinder 'hitt Srom moving, on going into 'the Committee of Supply,-the - special notice of the House to the case of Mrs. Fawcett. " .: - • • ' - ' ' Sir H. HARDINGE said the apeech of the• Noble Lord was 'not characterisedbrhis usual fairness.' The Noble Laid knew that the cased( the unfortunate lady.was to he brought. forward ,cin Monday, and yet he now took occasion to discuss the entire '-question of military discipline, notwithstanding' the opportunity ' which he - *mild have •rif - - discussing the subject on Monday. • This was a vbfe for thepensions of widows. • After,he (Sir . H. ' Ilardinge) had stated'the grounds upon upon tvhich he refused the pension, he thougheit the. Noble Lord took a different view 'from- that of the•Gillant'Officer, it:would have been more y - - pi eptirite' if he Co'ntlenteato postpone - his' observations till:. I ' Gillint Officer's ?notion was before the House. With regard; . ' other parts or the Noble Lord's speech, viz., that officerrin the army were expected to fight their way out of any difficulty by . d ue lling, and that that practice was connived it -by •indiiiduals hat the- head of the: army, he must - give the Noble ' Lord, notwithstanding, his , having been 'so long Secretary-at 'War, the strongest; ' contradiction. ' He did - not believe that the statement of the Noble Lord was borne out by facts:• , He was Confident' the. Noble Lord could not produce any: case i' where any:officer was brought to a court-martial and cashiered,- " for not/miring Ibught a duel in 'coniequenee of an insult offered: "Ito him. Officers, by the Articles of War, were liable to be ;cashiered, for fighting a -duel.:- It'-was 'stated in one-of the A r ticles of Wai.:,;, that any- officer saiho shoeldgive, send, or pre.; ni . ote.ecliallenge,lii teenier an +Officer ofsdisgrasiefor- refusing. a challenge, should be brought to a court-martial, and be RELATIONS WITH BUENOS AYRES AND MONTE VIDEO. • !Mr. EWART Wished - to bring under the Consideration of the" House the importance of our commercial relations with the River. Plate,: especially with reference to the . War now raging bet Ween the States of Buenos Ayres and: Monte Video:' It was most important that the House should take the eonditiOn• of this immense tract of, country-under their most ,earnest cconsideration.."•The capabilities of that country , were very great ; its mines of tin were most ptohfic; and its produce of cotton and ,wool very considerable. They, had recently • had :experience thdt the article_ of wool now imported from the districts 'of itio.de la Plata. was of a very improving character and greatly in de mind: The wool 'froin Germany ranked in the: first 'class amongSt the best judges of 'it in this country; that of New South - Wales in - the second class; and thirdly carne the wool from BuenoS Ayres. The cotton trade,: hewever, claimed the greatest sbare of our consideration,: - add for this reason he presumed it was that, his lion. Friend, the Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson),, had been requested to' pay attention to this subjecti as he (Mr.. Swart) had been by many of his former consti tutents, merchants and others of Liverpool. Our exports iii 1841 te'the river 'Plate amounted - very nearly to one million, 'and rather more than one-half of that was in the article of eaten goods, With regard to woollen goods, the same returns gave the exports for! the same year, 1841, at about 00,004',2atid there had also been a consider able export of linen and other goods. Turning, from. our own exports to-the -imports of that he found that in ,1830 we had imported 30,6001b5. of wool,_ but at thie present epoch we' had imported no 'less than five millions of pound's or, that" artkte., Having 'stated the importance. of the trade of that' part of the world, he udw , 6eitieis,*llzit he might call the - 'diplomatic' part of the'quegtion hi had Upon this Subjeet received plaints, of various sorts. It was thought_that in eoliSe qiimice . of the suspension of commerce which :had laeeti caused by the 7hOstilities.lsetwee'n _Buenos' Ayres and gout° . Video ; that France and England would have in terposed to 'put an 'end, to such , a state :of- things. It. Was , within , his own .knoWledge, that a' great !part of those persOns who hadbeen previously' advantageously employed in:supplying those articles which were sent in return fkir our goods had been compelled enlist in the army , of Rotas. -. He;Vvas: sorry to say. there had been strong :,complaints • made of the conduct of our 11Brister; 'oat:there.; hut-On that occasion lie would no further `refer , to it.... It-had been stated that. our .Minis ter had been more favourable t o Buenos Ayres than to Mritite Video; . hut'. he trusted there was no ground for that • statement: 'Our: naval toramatider,- on the • other hand, was said to be more favourable to Monte Video than to Buenos Ayres,;' add' Thus • . it'appearedlhat they did - riot pult•ttigether.'' Again,' it was said the French' commander .had taken a different view , of thingS to the English; .con nmandc ~ It.' was,•from a hop that - some • course might be taken to bring about a general harmony betweetcthe two 'Governments, by the united efforts of Fagland and France; that lie new ventured. to make this appeal to the Right Honourable Baronet toppo site- '(Sir 'Hobert- .'Whether' justice was , on • the, sid e ! hf '11) (1 6n:es .4y.sceS;" - 'or :of . Monte Video; it was netfor him (Mr. Ewart), to state. His sole ebject waithefestOration' of peace, and the return to the peaceful 'pursuits - :Of industry and commerce -:-(Hear, hear, from Sir Peel)—which might redound to the interests .not only .of•.these two now hostile countries, bdt to 'this country and to the world. He admitted 'freely that the general policy of the Right lion.. Baronet • (Sir R. Peel)•was. a policy of peace,. 'and he for one, as an itidepehdent Member of that Heise, would ever sup pcirt him, or any other Minister, in, that' policy, se•long as' to do so wasconSistent with ehr ban Our and:dignity. hear.),..ffe: did not believe that the Right lien. Baronet Would consent to 'anything which would coin promise our national honour, nor submit to any unjust or Vranniettleselusion 'of our .eomMerce. • He trusted, 'therefOre,: - he would be enabled, in. unison. with that great-anti high-minded Man at the head of the:councils •of France—and whom, be thought, no one could look. .ution Without adniiratiOn and regard-46 arrive at some common • understaridieg,i bywbieh 'hostilities Might be StOpphd.betisieeri Btieno42S:yresaiid Monte Video, and the peaceful Telationaand peaceful pursuits of all countries be restored. France was as unich'iriterested 'in, this - qiiestieri as England, and as: there wa s a common object to. be attained, he trusted there would be a common eernhinatipn between the Governments of the two coups tries; to effect it:: It w as with th ese views, and •in this ' hdpe . he now begged to ask the Right:lion. Baronet i a n (Si n g y s.r.luniltoietekft;eallecinErf he _could communi cate to t h e H ouse importantmost and interest had fallen froni the :iton. pir'ROBPIrryEEL said, in the first place, he 'Would li potion_of his addresi,_With express the very,.great satisfaction 'with which he had hrMeeasiepidetthrit9O..Li°ll'ibb-its!redveatc?:nr°cmninsindli.nhtigloce,. • although opposed 'general politics to him (Sir R. Peel), to put a liberal ,construction 'upon every act of the' EXeCutive which had for its object the continuance of 'amicable relations with Fiance.' The, Hon:. Member might dePenct uponit, that no compromise' of,Oe honour of"this country would take place, and that - lie friends 'around him were by such conduct :as !he...',:had 'avowed his intention' to r i, that a measure petty - Government, thus greatly,- SiredglLeuing the :hands of the subserviency- France. n4 G de ci r e s i u n dd m ,hco e y n .iia t, cithi i ei n ar s tis i o:o e il a f d :satsig e 4 f inma p te u t r ,iri s n u i g : ne g bv 80 He wished' tit a - similar • honourable' feeling which had been declared that evening would be pursued in.another place; Witerethe Man, Whose only desire was tO'lnairt tain 'the ' . honour: of his l,mwn country, 'and respect the Tights of. Other's, 10.4 `every . Unfair and ungenerotts ob stacle thrown in biS path. He sincerely belieted that: the Ministry of Fratiee..werO influenced-byt precisely the same motives avthe Government of.ngland,, convinced that they might' have every reciprocal advantage,' en conrage arts, proinete- indtstrs', .extend - comnierce and contribute to the general. e ivi I i satien and happiness of the • world ; and that this -good understanding, and these good offices were • to. be. 'secured consistently with the _most absohite independence on both sides, - with the most serupuleus. regard to the honour .and character of each of thent.-(Hear, hear.) He avowed thero that such . Was she principle he wished to, aet:,nron towards France, and he _would fearlessly express his opinion that the same liberal and enlightened spirit 'characterised the conduct of. France towards this country.—,(Hear, hear.) lie (Sir R. Peel) fully agreed with the iien. Gentleman (Mr. Ewart) in respect, to the eonseque.nees 'of the lamentable • state of `tint 'of thiS war between Buenos Ayres 'and into Video. Look at the Rio Plata—it was the- . great outlet of the vast southern.coait of . 'that great country. It!was the channel .by :which - the produce of "all that country must be brought to •Ettrope, and by which our own goods must he 'introduced into that-country: , • And, therefore, he granted that nothing' could _be inores.vexa dons or injurious to the. eemmercial interests of this, country than 'the •' eontintiance in that quarter oft the preieitti - State• of ;'things. • The complaint;. too, was of no • ''ordinary '764o.cier, and 'had' originated . no ordinary ", cause. It conflict of 'inere personal passions and personal, lute rests, and this at the.expenseof the'peace.a4 4aPPOess ofthe two cofintries thenaselves, and greatly_to the de triment of all others whO might haveconnexion with them.—(Hear, hear.) But the lion.•' Member (Mr. .which Evvart) in ',what a • delicate position Government was placed; and hhw he (Sir R. Peet) might forfeit his character as interfered td,S's vigorously' • to: bring' hostilities to. a. eldse,` Minister of peace. if lie, Q 4 v a li g th on e b n eVe f rything_ hiVe°wh'ildhethbeeghgeon4olg4Q,psisaYbfithaet htheead? short of an armed intervention .for. potting an end to hostilities betweeTE,Btlenoa Ayres .atids4tonte .Video.-rs --(Hear, hear.) The English Governmen t .first Offered its good ogees singly,-'and afterwardS; with France) , offered a joinCmediation. This offer. was accepted-133A Drente Video, aild rejeCted by.Bueries Ayres: - No .offerf to bring about a better state of things had been left ird 4 triedThk . "this . country ; • and feared not be wise for this country, certainly not .st tigmy, to interfere bsfPI:PP of,anns.'. .Ife,very.nitich doubted,' tranquillity brought about by such means would be e, ,e i sr tual. Whether- sitanight be a dvisable , for the. powers most interested in.the peace of this-quarter of the - globe to interfere .bY: armed intervention —as- in the ease.of Greeceto •briitg-Matters to . a termination,. haps, not wholly uncleServing . ,,of .: co nsideratien: respect toilie *Condi:let ifUrstiett b - the British itiktH~3m-i ties out there, they be possible.that, in their4al, ther and it tittght and were disgusted atAgtat lamentedi.Searty the stdie'hf:thiirigl„ ,th,ex.Nyitgsoa le tQo far. Bet 'if they 4 iirto 'froiri'the best sinOte desire to ,could to 'PlitAa end ' to the very unhappy and injurious ; state Of thjligs "Olen la ' g one existing on the Rio Plata. lie trusted, however—ao from what had recently come-to his :knowledge he had reason to hope—that the 'present s t a te of things would soon be altered' • and' that • w hicheVer party wa s vieto., rious Would"pursue 'such •'n policy as would .heal the wounds of the past, contrib u te to the revival of trade and cOmmereeLthid iherßore t 9 tlielsaqites an d . r e 'P e ity '6f the wotiltLstllefirTbear:Y"' " , Whe conversation then dropped, s „ cahiered. Another . article set, forth that if an. officer behaved ; , on Wily for discussion, but he hoped the Committee wools! in' a scandalous' and infamous manner, and unworthy the cone not discuss it on the present motion. He thought that -vest duct of a gentleman and au officer ; he was also to be tried by a little g o od could ar i se f rom di s cussing th e subject- of duelli n g. - - court-martial, and cashiered ; and in . another , article, it was ' that evening. With respect to the constitution of a Cou rt of stated • expressly, by _ o r de r of her Majesty, that every. Honour, which sh ou ld inflict certain punishments, pecu niarY officer was acquitted 'of disgrace for refusing to fight or otherwise, in his opinion it would not be attended with . or accept a • challenge. • Having thus shown what was required any beneficial results. He was of opinion, that pecuniary fin es , by the articles of war, in. the case of any o ffi cer who refused to would not be popular in England. In former days the Bil a l fight, or accept a challenge, he asked how it was possible for . power interfered most beneficially with duelling. He nee d not any body of officers, upon their oaths—men of education—who : recal to the recollection of the House the numerous instan ce , 9 • were told that it was no disgrace to refuse a challenge, to try : in which that power had been so exercised, with the n a p' a man for couduct unbecoming.an officer, and notwithstanding ff He believed that unless that power were ye " • their oaths, tell him that he was .cashiered for not fighting a s t ored .to the Crown, it would be impossible to put down duel? Why, such conduct would be a violation of oaths, of duelling. It was in. ain to look to legislation to remedl the decency, and of common sense, and •he did not believe .the evil. He believed it could only be cured by the state. of r----: Noble Lord could adduce any case. of- . that nature. • The pular feeling on the subject.—The vote was then agr eed to. -ti n • Noble Lord had had opportunities of proving if there were '2,327,196/. was then voted for the pensioners of ilinainha • such cases. While Secretary at War, he had, in accordance . Hospital. with his duty in that high s t a ti on , t o reco mmend these Articles On the motion that 38,0001. be granted for retired allowances, to her Majesty, and when the Noble Lord told him that the Colonel RAWDON said that be thought this . was a pi o Pe r Government possessed the power of putting down duelling opportunity of mentioning that Colonel Moore, the brother of in the army, and that it ought to be put down, he asked.' Sir John Moore, had given up his retired allowance when he the Noble •Lord what he had been about during the five years found that his private fortune was sufficient to enable him to he was in office, and why he had not taken some such steps in live without it.—The vote was agreed to. • • that direction which he found fault with the present Govern ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. ment for not taking? But he could assure the oble Lord that v . the subject had not escaped the attention of her. Majesty's Go- Captain BOLDERO, in rising to move the Ordnance essf. vernment.. However, as.some reforms were to he submitted.to timates, said that there had been an expense of about 03, 80 9 _ her Majesty on the matter, he was, precluded from: entering . more particularly into- it at present. With respect to the in the expenditure upon the Sappers and Miners. But in tne expense of barracks and barrack masters there was a dimiaTe Noble Lord's statement; that o ffi cers were broke for not fight- . don . to the amount of 168,0001. ; and that reduction • W ° T",. ing duels, .he . (Sir H. Hardinge) would refer to the case of have been greater if it had not been necessary to augment ta' which an Hone. Gentleman, a • few evenings ago, had said an- ooMmissariat in China. An additional charge would be ne e account had come by the last mailfrom the West Indies, where cessary for the expense of rebuilding the powder-works at an' officer..was tried .for .having submitted to an insult. Of Waltham Abbey. At the Cape of Good Hope also, an Men; course he could not mention the name of the officer, but he diture was incurred , in consequence of the destruction Of e n • would read the charge against :an officer who was brought to win g of the fort, occasioned b y the indiscretion of two chilatensi a court-martial in the yea r 1843, for s candalous and infamous Playing with lucifer matches. The charges for the restoratio conduct, unbecoming the charaCter of an officer and a gentle- of the Tower would not be felt by the country; for in the sr ~ man. in submitting to be :charged with ungentlemanlike and Tropriation of th e ne w buildin g to the 'purposes of stores, toe blackguard conduct, and with not - refuting the same charge, or country w o uld be c om p ensated for the ex p ense.. B y calculating reporting it-to his commanding. officer, or taking measures to the p rice of fuel in the two countries he found that the alr; exculpate himself 'from charges so derogatory' to his character. ante to a n offic e r in En g land would be 61. 10s. a year, an, ' f , Now he (Sir H. -Hardinge) thought that that o ffi cer ought to Ireland 71 . 10s. Since the y had been in office they ha d ° Ce have gone before his brother officers and asked them to try the fected a re d uc t i on i n the Ordnance estimates of 303,4" L an have charge ; but, according to the Noble Lord's version, the officer nually. He hoped this would be taken as an earnes t ef t. a , • , was .tried for refusing to.fight a duel. Such a thing was most integrity o f t h e ir desire to reduce the ex p enditure as roue. improbable. He ( Sir. H. Hardinge) had been for 40 years in the possible. • army, and he hadzerer heard of such a case aethe rda- Dr. BOWRING said he did not intend to divide. the CO . . 02 . gined. •He wou ld the another instance in the same b eary of 1843. rnittee on any of these items, nor did he mean todetain s ett He took the most recent cases as the Noble Lord said that the Committee, except to regret that a similar course had not b s e e e s system was going on atthe present day of officers being forced adopted in the ordnance . as in the other votes. He saw tit t e. by the regulations of the service to fight duels when they ought .large part of the expense was incurred for the colo-aies ; I to have the matter settled by . a Court of Inquiry. The case thought that the colonies ought to bear part of the 'burden one.° , was this :—lrr April, 1843, emofficer • was tried for scandalous their own defence. He saw that the lonian Islands did so, and infamous conduct, unbecoming an officer and a gentleman, why not the others? had in having. submitted to be .stigmatised as a " liar" and a Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS said, as the lonian Islands " scoundrel," and suffering other opprobrious epithets to be ap- •been referred to, he hoped he might be allowed to make 4 'f, ~ plied to him by another individual. - The • Court found him observations with respect to them. They formed a most . guilty, and he waseashiered. He (Sir H. Hardinge) had • in- teresting ceuntry, from their soil, their position on the verr es s e quired into that case, and he found that that individual had con- civilisaton, their climate, and classic associations. These isia7, ; •• ducted himself . in a.- most ungentlemanlike manner, and had been thrown back on this country for regeneration and ei / -t ee ~ that he bad not dared to face an inquiry by his brother satiun. :But their progress had been arrested, and their presP e ,a .. , officers.—( Hear, . hear.) . _Accordingly they . forced him- - injured ,by the fixed contribution which they were co ha . 0 ,, e , to a court-martial. How such cases could be distorted in the - to pay out of their revenue, to this country, towards 4* ~,e s wayin which the Noble Lord had done, he (Sir H. Hardinge) pen-e of their military defence. That contributiaa, ~e 3, could not -understand.. Indeed, , in the case of one o ffi cer in- 35,000 /. a year , for this pu r p o s e alone ; other expend ear, suiting another; and not making a demand for explanation, he were etnnpetted tcr pays reiSed that sum to 54,00 0 I .a Y; as might be put•into " Coventry" by his brother o ffi cers, and thus The whole ' revenue of the' islands, some years lig° , 00 • find himself •in 'a ' very unpleasant position.—( Hear, hear.) 180,000/. ;it had since-been so much reduced that it wa s T :. o , • Well, he would: take the Noble Lord upon that point.' He no more than 106,000/.1 - • the fixed contribution /.h er h ad knew the ease ola fieldofficer,•who, being a religious individual, am o un t e d to no less - thin '5O per cent. of the revenue. II ' l t o f and having. conscientious scruples on the matter, declined to bee n un c easin g in his representatimieeto the Governor e" ie • , fight a duel, because •he felt thathe ought ' not to sin against the •neces,ity• of making -erne abatemetii in this contributioeleit ,the laws of God. . The -officers- of his regiment, from the ' fatattrof•the islands: • The depreciation' in the price of r re ., ,manner'in which his name was used, in 'consequence felt very eet experts, currants and oil, had dried up the sou r ces 0 0 , ; i uneasy ; butehe presents Commatider-in-Chief protected him • •Y he:kite theessh they had' reduced taxation and made ever, to the extent', of having ' the • matter • ' inquired into. , . sse lef),stitete; the contribution was found to be exec per t' The cause of quarrel was , investigated, and the result- 0 P itee' 'The - state of their public institutions Wal ' er e ; was that the proper conduct of that field officer was corrobe- • 111. ''rf‘3l3le:. ' There were no asylums, and.the !made° ' c o t rated and confirmed, • and his brother officers -withdrew , their ni ogled together with felons. • The - lonian Islands - " we re es se objection-0 , 1 . 4m; and he waenow one of the ' most resPeeted. e oti!e . ; they .. were in an_ anomalous position, be o t . do officers in he service. Again in 1604 Sir Charles MorganOn 0 ° "'lea and - independent States. They should n t h e e • the ease of a lieutenant who had associated with the surgeon: of •thir ' duty '' to - that interesting people unless ~,.... his regiment, notwithstanding his - -having been ' collared and'- re traced - something of that fixed contribution.—( Lord Stsnwt e . struck by hinti and who had been brought -to trial for conduct' 1 'fie ha" dene'it'") unworthy an • officer-s-in that case Sir-Charles Morgan- wrote titer he had not brought forward this question stronglY ,u" a e o g He appealed to the Governmen t 4w; an.observation *Upon the second article , of 'the charge-to the last year ; and he asked the Noble Lord whether be was u e ..... e nt, effect that it watt tantamount to it a crime to refuse fairly with him, as a friend and supporter of the Govern Toto , fighting a duel,: and that •if he had been aware of it before the in not acquainting him a ith the step he had taktn. , ,I l L e d ` doile - ' investigation - that ~ he would not - have. suffered the article to appeal to the House to say whether the Noble Lo ud a Noble have -been brought ss forteard. He ' (Sir -1 - 1. Hardinge) could metice to him in not communicating to him what thethe of : , only appeal to the-Noble Lord, that in every case with which Lord said he had done. But he would still exercise his I t he he had anything to do, and having.made every possible inquiry making these representations to the Committee.. - • Inlo sup . • at the Horse Guards with respect to other cases,' - he could not p oor ofthe island were begging about the streets, th e re find an instance of .an officer being brought to trial because h e no poor-house to receive them. He built a poor4oose,it ap. . • ,• : :•• : . it answered exceedingly well; but .. a fey/ months ' ag ue 43 55 , was wanting iu courage to fight a:duel. Colonel ,FOX asked the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman if peered that it was abolished. He would appeal to the. r - o r he did ' not kno w ' of any instances of the Sovereign dispensing mitteewhether he had not a right' to state the cii,:ther ,with the , services of o ffi cers, because - -they were • put into stances ; and he appealed to them , again to- sal w e doe' Coventry for not- fighting a duel ? -' That he believed . was the Noble Lord had treated him as he ought to halade out generally -the way in which cases of that kind were disposed of. in not first communicating with him; after he had in ~I t 138 Sir H.- HARDINGE said if he understood the question of a case so stron g that the Noble Lord-himself requested l i n er f o r the Gallant Officers it seemed to imply that the Sovereign 'of would not press for the production of the papers, the rurosed the country was -a party-to punishing officers for 'not fighting which was yet uncancelled by the House. If he ha° Via, se • dueler ' - . - for those papers he should have had the credit of ha , ' . Colonel FOXe-The Soiereign•• acting- by the' advice of the complished the redaction. Ministers Of the' Crown: • - • ' , The conversation on this subject then dropped. opt of • Sit HENRY HARDINGE-knew•no instance' of an o ffi cer's Mr. WILLIAMS complained of 'the immense. tile VI• services being dispensed with-in such a case, except where the money spent in.building fortifications and new baillteP'„7,ooo l ' . harmony •of the regiment rendered it necessary to remove cer-' barracks at Manchester alone were put down at eiree ts t et tainOfficers.—( Hear, hear;- from' Lord HowielY.) But the There were others also at Newport and Bristol " 1- , o cki Noble 'Lord could not - expect • that the army should be' • sob- there in the state of Manchester that required those su m for jected to- restrictions and restraints to which other parts of the now more than at any former time? He thought this suw community were not subjected. -- - . • the erection of new barracks was most enormous.' - _ e ; riot' • ' Sir A. L . HAY asked what would be the condition of Captain PECHELL, in alluding to the late militr o sese officers in the army if 'they were not allowed 'to - take 'steps to , which had occurred at Brighton, said, that after - th vs, be . remove any stigma which any young and ill-tempered o ffi cer Punishment Which had been inflic ted ' upon the • Off . tn a i e ster' might- happen to cast upon them ? He questioned if duelling was did not wish to do more than allude very bridge( ) Fe..,,, be: • as prevalent in the army asin other portions of the community. Damage to the amount of 50/. had been done, and it i st e‘e ,so , The ,might do- away ? with duelling in the army by means of fore ' tated that compensation would be made by the w b cpros s tll ' I statutes, but he would tell them that they ought to pause be- to the foreigner whose house had been attacked. met° the 'lt • fore they prevented-the o ffi cers of the British army from asserts perty had been destroyed, and he was now w ithout, e sne ing their. honour and repelling indignity. , . of subsistence ; and he (Captain Pechell) hoped that if e e e sieB Captain • BERNAL said a very wide field had been opened Hcin. Gentleman also would suggest some means for' sub' by the discussion which had: taken place, and he thought it the distresses of those persons. was necessary to consider at once whether it were right to go Sir H. HARDINGE said that whatever might have be , e- suh' s into the whole question on the present motion.—( Hear, hear.) intention of the soldiers originally with respect toraisior ee tiw• He was perfectly prepared to discuss • the subject whenever it scriptian amongst themselves for the purpose of repa e l pro' should be the pleasure of .the House to do so. There was a expenses and damage done, the course adopted by ' vast deal to be said upon it.—( Hear.). The whole system was secutor's solicitor had entirely frustrated it. . se 00' an anomalous. one. They had statutes which pronounced After a few words from Mr . Aceimegy and' Sir P s duelling, to. be , an. offence nothing short of murder. DINUE in reply, the vote was agreed to. ' ' gen° —( Hear, hear.) They had juries endeavouring to evade these A sum of 110,74571. was then voted, to defray t he _ c o , ' i practices ;'`they had judges, who - were prepared to give them of the Royal corps of Engineers, and Sappers and Atil er y ao' 343,527/. was voted to defray the expenses of the aryl 0 the :go. bye ;.. whilst the _majority of That House were always e ready to assist in the evasion. Under these circumstances, gunnery department. • ' rrack' Yea't would any man• say that the widow - of in officer who had fallen 391,1971. was voted to pay the salatiee of ba . Its l in a duel should, on that .account, be. deprived of a pension ? on foreign stations. i (Hear, hear.) Let them either say at once that an officer of e the army should be eupported in his conscientious views, or let charges of the ordnance works, &c.—'Phis vete was a ee ses A vote of 483,721/. was then proposed for defra r Y e i e e e g te o f e thernhe prepared.to treat his widow, if he fell in a duel, in the A vote of 166,7961. was then proposed for the ear ' - same manner that they would treat the widow of an officer who the ordnance surveys. sfell inbattle. He (Cape Bernal) had no wish to interfere with In answer to a q ue s tion from Colonel RAWLION,ekee iel o re o , :: the discretion of the Crowns He knew perfectly well that no Sir R. PEEL said the Re p ort of the serve land would be laid before the r te sti , ses s ' officer's widow had an absolute right to a pension. He would House in the cours e 01 l• 00 The vote was then agreed to. ' not, however, enter into the question on-the present occasion, . considering, as he did, that it ought to form the subject of a A:vote of 229,580/. for the expenses of ordnance store, substantive motion.—(Hear, hear. )' Without assuming t o thee proposed. ilor f himself the right of advising the Committee, he must say that In answer to a question from Sit. C. NAFIER , _ the sa ,he thought itevould be much better-to % naive any further die- - . Captain BOLDERO said that in all new shi p s. mission. and marines were supplied with the new muskets. el , Colonel FOX explained. , ' The vote was then agreed to. , i:h e sha r g Mr..P.' BOItTHWICK said the question simply was, whe- A vote of 163,680/, was proposed for'defraying th e ther-a particular lady should be - deprived of a pension which of the superannetion and pension list. ' o f t-1 : under ordinary.circumstances she would have received, merely Captain PE{- wished to call the a .t e a e ea - , because another person haft committed a crime. As at present Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary-at-Wa r e jled f° ,oo n advised he (Mr. -P. ,Berthwick)-thouglit it would be a most some hardship. A poor pensioner had been colnr, ii peri to , unjustifiable mode of punishing an offence to visit it upon the into a workhouse, wad during the time he was eberee;ereoli.o, 'ttetio n . to ° person who did not perpetrate it, and who, of all persons in the kingdom; wintld hale been - most anxious to prevent it had' itLek ul for was withdraWn. When he was dischaed fromt',„ s ee Pea • pension was renewed, but its proceeds were v et de , been in her power. , diens until the expenses to which they had 'be had bee f ' f - . . Lord HOWICKs said the Hon. . and Gallant Officer near him (Sir A. Leith Hay) hod argued that duelling was abso. frayed: . •He (Captain Pee sell) wished 'to know maintenance during his stay in the workhouse if t his t "•,', lutely necessary in the army. Now, he did not ask them to legs!? e pronounce an opinion either way; but he did ask them either Sir H. HARDINGE said it undoubte dl y W aS 1101.' 00' - .1 ' Of 0 ' to sanction or discourage it consistently.—( Hear, hear.) . If. The vote a ss then agreed'ag to. • • expenses ~, A vote was reed o 174,688/. for. the eels .00o ssee they sanotioned duelling, it was nothing less than gross cruelty. .and injustice.to deprive Mrs. Fawcett of her pension; if they missinlat suiplies. d th e • l came to- a resolution to put down thepractice, then, however. The Cliaritstarr then - reported progres s an . ,VW ~ painful, it might perhaps ,be necessary. -to , pursue that course. resumed." Com mttee °' - • e 'The Hon. and , Gallant Officer oposite (Sir • Henry The House then resolved itself into a x l oot 'Hardinge) - •had . only answered hi s , argument in Ara a and Means. R move d I be t .miserable spirit of personality.—( Cries of "No, no," from both e a 0 , sides ofehe.Houee.) • He repeated the observation... .He had of 8,000,000/. out of the Consolidated Fund- was or der ~ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE The vote was agreed to , and the Report " ' - , 44 brought the question forward as, a general one, and what waslto , the Hon. and Gallant Officer's reply ? - Why be said, tbat.the brought up on Monday next. . , . the Mutiny Act provided so and so, and he asked, why e if that was The House - then resumed.. .' • aiding e , • not sufficient, he (Lord Howick) had not ridded to its provi- Dr. BOWRING presented a petition. re o g j. , and i t e sions. What did it signify whether he did, or did not, during cheater Railway.—( Against it as we unders%°"_ s i e d st; • the time he held the of fi ce of Secretary at War, suppreis duel- The other Orders of the Day were then deV ce. ling in the army.? The Hon. and Gallant O ffi cer knew very' House adjourned at a Quarter past Eleven 0 t'''' Well that questions connected with the• discipline of the army , never came under his (Lord Howick's) notice, except when ^ some particular difficulty arose ; and during the time that he was Secretary at War, it so happened that there never was a case-similar to that of Mrs. Fawcett's. His notice was .never called to this anomaly, and therefore it was that he had never . thought of adopting any means for its removal. But he begged to tell the Hong and Gallant Officer, that if while he was Se cretary at War a case had been brought before him, in which he - was • called upon to exercise the painful discretion of ad vising her Majesty not to grant a pension to an officer's widow because he had fallen in a duel, he would not have given, that advice unless he had been prepared to carry .out the principle, and to take every measure in his power to put an end .to duelling in the army.—( Hear, hear.) Now what was -the - argument of the Hon. and Gallant Officer? He to ted, and .he ,believed correctly, that officers, practically and subitantially, were. .brought before courts-martial for refusing to fight duels. It was perfectly true that the letter of the law was against duelling-the articles of war were most 'express and decisive . ; but the officer was called wen to do nothing anbecomieg the.character• of a gentleman, and if he received an insult without taking immediate steps for redrest, he was liable to a court-martial. An . officer, had been brought before a court-martial in India for an offence of that desCription. . Thecharge was that he had received a blow, and had not taken steps to obtain that legitimate and-,immediate redress to which •he •wa.e, entitled for so gross an ineele • The measures were an appeal to a superior' authority and duel. But it was per fectly well known that if an officei took the course of appealing to a superior authority, he had the punishment inflicted upon him which was known by the name of being sent to Coyentry. Under penalty of this sentence, he was virtually compelled to choose the alternative of the duel. . , - ' Sir HENRY. HARDT NGE inquired as to the particulars of the case to which the Noble. Lord referred. • '. - Lord 410 WICK said the e case was exactly What he. had stated. : Hexatber thought that the officer belonged .to tbe • Indian army, but the two services were governed exactly . hys the same rules. In another ease, a field-officer had been actu ally sot. to Coventry for refusing to fight a duel on religious , grounds. The Hon. and . Gallant Officer (Sir A.• Leith Hay) had argued. that dhelling wag the keystone of the honour of the army. , , . . • • Sir A. LEITH. HAY said he had not used that expree;. sion.—( Hear, hear.) - , , Lord 110 WICK begged the. Hon. and Gallant Officer's pare don. He had meant only to state the purport of his argument. The Hon.: and Gallant Officer had argued that duelling:was necessary to maintain the discipline and honour of the army. Sir A. LEITH HAY—Most certainly, I Lord HO WICK-In the case to which he had just referred, had the officer been a subaltern instead of a field-officer, he would probably have been forced out of the army.-(Hear, hear.) He would again say that they were imperatively called uppn to ,adept a decided course, and not suffer the present , anomalous state of. things to continue. . • ! Captain BERNAL hoped the Hon. and Gallant Officer ( Sir - .H. Hardiege) would not be tempted by the Noble Lord's re marks into the discussion of this subject. —( Loud cries of" Hear, hear.") He•thought nothing could be more unfair than the attack made by the. Noble Lord, but he trusted that the Rig ht Hon. Gentlemaneagainst whom it was directed would main- : taida judicious silence.—( Hear, hear. ) Sir H. HARDINGE said the Noble Lord had ta lked of miserable personalities, He. House to say left it to the , . whether the Noble Lord Seat justified in that K r (Hear, and cheers.) .He had simply reminded jie nra lgoble Lord, that the present Government had been in o ffi ce only , two years, and asked, him why • the late Government had not wont- ee , remedied the evils of which he cornpleinetle- li e e 7s ee -e ae s% , l ready to meet the Noble Lord whenev er the questi on , 0 ,- - 7 ... t..... oi l a lo r g* [ADVERTISEMENT.]2—DROPSIES CCBA l n f i ' r f ell l arit),' ''' 11WAT'S PILLS.--EXTICAORDINARY CAS 6 * - ' - 1 . fe4 . 11 14F' ggle, residing in one of the almshouses in €2 .1 . / 1 / 4 .00 , 0. Mestminster, was by the watery dropsy so i ireacu a ti ;fo/ ,0 M body and legs as to be increased to double her (iliacc.J, or Medical man . had declared her past all cure ~..,,,.ot,,v;,a death was daily expected), yet, however elltra., e i te''.. , ,, - T, appear, she was reduced several incites in buillie•q.: via w o ' o 'l n Y d a e rf few tl i d re o m se e s d a y r,, m th a e y a b b e ov c e on ex si tr de a r o e r a di a n s ar Y ao l le e ir ati et ir v vii7 F,,„ :r illiic i oo li i any kind of dropsy, however long-standing, case may be.—Sold at Professor llollo:aY,tor -- int a lic h) e ' i cilis,. o ; ~ 244, 'Strand (where advice maybe had ora all respectable medicine venders througlO ut .6 ( l., A ls4 ' world, in pots and boxes at Is. lid., 2s. 9d? 4s. . w ho ' and 335. each. • , T cloQ l3 ' Slg t° The Dublin Papers state that Mr. e rin g,i l t a , oil was 'examined as witness for the Crown, "„ e atien" trials, has ceased to be the Dublin Corresr ' 1. .11.1617‘ing .Herald. eV. . -. '' BIRTHS. 1 .,,1y 0 il f On the 3d nit ;at Larkhill; Worcester, or . d C - ; George Bayley,' of a son. • e laaY - ,f , 4 ' . Ob. the 23d ult., at Boulogne-sur-Mer, the . _ 46 t ~, IJdny, Esq., Bengal Civil Service,' of a son. • e Ste' 3tai tf° s '' On the 28th ult., at Caen, Madathe Henri d P of V a daughter. . 1, o•ar, . o f On ' the 2d inst., Mrs. John Edward F llB ° f . 1., 11 . '''' ' ' ' Sussex, of a son. Albany -road, b th env e leaidl3:ooffaMdaarukoliVteirll.iani fi b 7 rt e- co - ', v ,,,. ~ , ccv, ,‘ i 5A h t 4 , 0 ~ On the , 3d inst.; at the Vicarage 1-iouse, the lady of the Rev. W Marsh, of a son. cam. , • :Iv On the 2d inst. at Montpellier-terra, lady of E. IL Blakeney, Esq., Royal • et , i he ioir . , ment, of a son. ' f l'i eti Mathews, Esq., of a daughter. On the 6th inst., at Clapham-rise, Stirr e •Y' . ~,,,t• sl )t. ".; l a dy o . ,' On the 6th inst., at Maidstone, the ...,., the , Colonel Griffiths, of a sop]. On the 7th inst., at. Gloitcester-place, ,iles,e, ortoy,., lady of the Rev. W. Palmer, of S• LT daughter. Portman' s f r.l7 of , ' CAhiaeniteitni.ifii;,,l.: ..:, ___..-----------_,,f. 1 MARRIED. ,s.,,r'to On the 28th ult., at All Souls, LangilataPlac7._buttm4,, lebone,. Mr. James W. Crichton, of Nwingtoi4.ooi, Loveday, eldest daughter of W. Gard, Es4•' la te° •l' Cornwall. . • O P o ` Dy er i', , On the sth at St. Marylebone, Thomas ~.fotr, f, , ton Dyer, Esq., 36th Regiment Madras 'Satie eiP,lntoi Mariannette Rosabella Eliza, widow of the la te t." J. W. Humphreys, Madras Army. . ie . f , afr- DIED. .On the 4th inst ,at Ryder Isle of Wight, "71-• ~j JO' Co:Tll.lc;rlle'r,lll6i,h i i n:S . i t i l :., g : i , n j IT.: itrand, Clement, the int lll3t . a i tiara I Jr `'' On the 6th inst., at lloxton, Richard, son of 11-c . Clxto, Esq. 001' 1%. On the 6iii inqt., "fr. Thomas Rowley, of East- ~olicet 96,10.. A, ( . .tii iii,t:, in Cllarlotte-street, Pollan' ~.,•4,0 1 n 140113 Esq.. landscape vanter, aged 91. _,,,,,110 On the 7,t I , ;iv.. , at Robert-strat, Ilatopstead-P, ,i William Bei' —. I .53. """ '' lif -- :-------- - 013;, W. Londoh : 1'e4.4114 .144ligleA A1.1:1-:101 -No 112, Striind; at Tit ,5414 Ntide', ftd.ll2, _IL CoulltY of bliddleges, Saturday, Iklarth 9, 164.* t tel / 4 tr At tot