The Sun. — London, England, 1839-07-24 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION. 1831, Mr. Justice Bosanquet said that all assemblies not held by lawful authority, attended by great numbers of people, and which were calculated to excite alarm and en . danger the public peace, were illegal.—(Hear, bear.) 1 On another occasion, at Devizes, Mr. Justice Coleridge i said, that an assembly which met together in great num bera, exhibiting weapons, using seditious language, or \ even strong gestures, against those concerned in the pre servation of the peace—that this was an unlawful i aosemblae In " Burn's Justice," it was stated to hive 13:ea 7 ‘ now settled on high authority, that a meet ly of great numbers of people, in such circum stances of terror as tended to endanger the public peace, and raise fears among the subjects of the realms, is proper') an unlawful assembly, as where a great number of people are complaining of their common grievances, counselling what measures should be taken for obtaining their object , e for who can tell where such an assemblage niey end ?" The ciicumstances calculated to create terror might be different at various times ; meetings, for instance, at night, with torches, using threats to life or property, exhibiting weapons, carrying bludgeons, or fire arms, might cause such meetings to be unlawful, and punishable by law. He (Lord J. Russell) stated these circumstances, because it had happened fre quently, within the last four or five months, that he had been asked by Magistrates the particular circumstances i which made an assembly unlawful ; and he could only refer them, in a letter now before the House, to the books of authorities, and to charges delivered by eminent Judges, and not to any exact definition of his own. (Hear, hear ) Now there could be no doubt upon these authorities, that the assemblies which had taken place in Birmingham, of three, four, or five thousand per sons, terry tying individuals from resorting to the usual thoroughfares, were unlawful. 'rhe Magistrates finding the civil force in the town insufficient for the purpose of ar ' resting persons concerned in these meetings, unwilling (and perhaps not justified, in the absence of any actual riots) to call for the interposition of the mili tary, had required the assistance of some of the metropolitan police, to be sworn in as special constables, which was authorised by an Act passed a few years ago He need not tell the House the occurrences which had since taken place, the riots which had occurred on the 13th, when houses were burnt and plundered by a mob. But he thought the Committee would agree that, although the Magistrates might be justified in taking these means for the preservation of the peace in that town, yet it was necessary that they should adopt measures fur the organiza tion of some species of civil force ; in fact, for a regular police force for the preservation of the peace of that town, to be supported, in cases of emergency, by the military stationed in the neighbourhood. But in the present state of feeling in that town, diffs‘rencee might cccur if the Cor poration were to attempt to enforce the ley . , ing of a borough rate for the purpose of raiii.g this force. He, therefore, thought it proper, as this was a subject which concerned the general state of the country, that the country should so far interfete as to advance the sum requisite for this purpose, which should afterwards be repaid by the town. He did not propose this as a vote of Supply, but as a vote for the foundation of a Bill, which Bill should contain a provision for the repayment of the meney by means of a rate to be levied on the inhabitants of Birmingham ; and as the rate would thus be imposed by Act of Parliament, it would.be impossible to raise any ques ticn as to the authority for the imposition of the rate. He would not now go further into the question relating to the transactions at Birmingham, but there was one eircum sta Ice which he e i.shed to explain respecting that town, because the parties concerned bad thougbtproper to publish a letter which they had addressed to him respecting an in. quirt', and an imputation had been cast upon him of having denied the inquiry, and of having censured the parties ap plying for it. He was not aware of having used terms im plying censure, but he was ready to produce the letter which he had written on that occasion. Persons ignorant of the subject might suppose that the letter im puted censure to the Magistrates, and that he had refused to make inquiry. The custom in all such cases was, and it was a custom not introduced by him, but one which had been the custom of all former Secretaries of State, to inform parties complained of, of the nature of the complaint, and to ask for an answer. The complaint in this instance, had been made against the officer commanding the cavalry, at Birmingham in 1837. He neci not remind the House that at the election iu that year disturbances had frequently taken place, rendering it necessary for the military to be called in. The military had in general on these occasions acted so exceedingly well that he had deemed it advisable to request his late Majesty to order the Commander-in- Chief to issue general orders, expressive of approbation of the conduct of the military on such occasions, and thank ing them for such conduct. The troops were commanded by Sir M. Wallace, and, after an inquiry into the conduct of the troops, be ( Lord J. R.) felt it his duty to thank him for the manner in which be discharged his duty ; of that opinion he informed the memorialists—and also that he did not think it necessary to throw censure upon that officer by instituting a formal inquiry. He had felt it necessary to say so much in order to ex plain the letter of which he complained. He would then move that the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury be ; authorized to advance the sum of 10,0001. out of the Con solidated Fund, to be charged upon the rates to be made in that town. Mr. HUME thought it necessary that there should be err efficient police not only in Birmingham, but in every town and borough—he would therefore net object to the advance, for of course provision would be made in the Bill _ for its safe repayment—he rose, however, for the purpose of protesting against the law as laid down by Justices Bosanquet and Coleridge, as explained by the Noble ' Lord. Unless the Noble Lord was prepared to introduce a new gagging Bill, he did not see why such monstrous doctrines should have been alluded to on that occasion -it was a monstrous doctrine, and if carried out, would pre vent all meetings of the people. He protested against it. Sir E. WILMOT hoped the Hon. Member for Bir mingham would explain to the House how it was that the Corporation of Birmingham had not power to employ watchmen as the town officers formerly bad ? Mr. SCHOLEFIELD said that under the old regime the watchmen were employed under the Street Commis sioners' Act. They amounted to no more than six or eight ; appointed under the head constable the portreeve, who between them had a Burn's Justice and a brace of pistols. —( Loud laughter.) The new Corporation had not money to appoint police officers, because it was disputed by a large party in the town whether the Corporation had a right to levy a rate or not. He was satisfied that if time was given, the Corporation would appoint an efficient police. Sir EARDLEY WILMOT wished to know how it appeared that the Street Commissioners had no longer the power to act when applied to to appoint a police force? Mr. SCHOLEFIELD said they were applied to because the Corporation had not the necessary funds ; but they refused, stating their powers had been superseded by the new Corpo- ration. Mr. WILLIAMS did not think the course proposed by the Noble Lord was the best that could be pursued. If the Corporation had not the power to raise money for the establishment of a police force, an Act ought to be passed for that purpose. The less the House and the Government interfered with the affairs of corporate towas the better. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, that the police of a town was more likely to keep the peace than a strange force. He believed the sending of the Metropolitan Police to Birmingham had been the sole cause of all the disturbances which had taken place. He did cot object to the establishment of a constabu lary force in Birmingham, but he did object to the course pur sued by the Noble Lord, who had not shown the necessity for this advance of money. Mr. WA R BURTON supported the vote on the same ground as the Hon. Member for Kilkenny. Sir 11. PEEL said, as he understood the Noble Lord, the repayment was to be made by an assessment on the property in the town ? Lord J. RUSSELL—It was proposed that the sum ad treeteeci should be repaid by an assessment upon the town of Birneingharn, leaving altogether out cf consideration the ques tion of the Charter. Sir R. PEEL did not understand whether this was merely a temporary arrangement Did the Noble Lord propose to esta blish the police on a footing analagous to that of the Metro politan Police? namely, to appoint a stipendiary Magistrate ; l ed selar:eci Commissioner, like C• lone] Rowan? Or did the Noble Lord propose to leave the selection of the police and the contreel of them to the local Magistracy ? Lord .1. RUSSELL proposed to leave it entirely to the local authorities— Hear)—and that it should be regulated like the police of Liverpool, or any other town. Sir R. PEEL doubted whether it would not have been a better arrugement to have taken temporary powers until the question of the Corporation should be settled.—(Hear, hear.) However he should, without reference to the details, feel it his duty to support the proposal of the Noble Lord. What answer 'could they give to those peaceable inhabitants of Birmingham, w eoe property had been destroyed, unless they took effectua! measures for the security of the public peace? The question was not Of oppressing the poor, or imposing a tyranny, but providing protect;e.n for those who had given their allegiance to their So vereign, am: who had a right to demand it. Talk cf arbitrary power and desp ee ,:em ! there was no despotism half so grindin g an d oppr ess i ng . as that t u e der which those persons lived who we re in daily fear of injury to their persons and property, from phy sical lures, without the power on the part of the law to protect them.—(Cheers.) With respect to the police, he thought the sudden arrival of ete or 60 men; whose persons were to tally unknown, had a great tendency to provoke feelings which would not be excited when disorder was suppressed either by the military or by the local magistracy. The petitioners knew that it was the duty of the latter, and would tolerate from them that which they would not tolerate from other parties. He trusted that the N o bl e Lord prevent the neces s it y o f employing the Metropolitan Police •pract i for these pufrposes; de] he hopedtheywould not encourage the ce o sending etachments of The consequence would b e th at i f the Metropolitan Police were sent on special services they must distinguish themselves, and would resort to measures of severity t which a local police greatf spirit the would not resort. If they acted with too ge neral character of the force was injured, acted with efficiency too much caution they run the risk of iinpairlinth ed that of the police by the risk of defeat. He thereforet e the Metropolitan P„ lice would 131 reserved for thehdoupties for which they were intended, and that an effective police wo uld be established where there was a n y r i s k of dander did not say that the police were the causes of the disturiin lie which had taken place in Birmingham. Ile knew theyawecr es e attributable to other causes.—(Hear, hear.) It was lama s _ ible that the town could have been kept in the state of excitement in which it had been for years past, from inflammatory harangues, political unions, and large demonstrations of physical force, without exciting that spirit which those who encouraged it in the first instance now re gretted.—( Cheers.) Having excited the parties to this poi' .t they now deserted them, and those who had encouraged the excitement were not now the favourites of the people, but were the objects of execration; while bolder men had stepped forward, who again had been supplanted by those who went one step further.—( Cheers. ) He could not help thinking there were indications of this state of affairs which might have ena bled the Government to call the attention of Parliament to lhe subject at an earlier pr:od, when a more deliberate consi der- tion nitght have been given to the measure.—(Hear, hear. j He regretted that at this period of the Session they were ezlledupon to cons id er a measure of suehimmense Zimpitr.ttuce as ts,P establishment of a rural police. But the : elm)! sMiparamouni, that no consideration should prevent )tisenting to such measures as were necessary to main , *ty of life and propeety, d society • which it was the main oh y to give, and which if it did pot give, it of its first functions._.( Cheers. ) D did not regret diet the Government had ab • • d a calling for • measures of eorrcion until th e y h a d n:, ed . to do so fromvote the necessity of the at the unanimity with which thiscase. He would pass w mild show the misguided men who had been guilty of these outrages that th e re was a de ermination in the House to res at those doctrines which had had such a dangerous effect on the working classes. He concurred in the vote, because he ' agreed to its necessity, and trusted that he saw in it the commencement of a better system of police in all our large towns, under the control of proper authorities, than had ever existed in the old one. Sir E. WILMOT was glad that the Noble Lord intended to propose a F tipendiar y Magistrate, and he believed that if the whole town of Birmingham was canvassed, it would be seen that that was the unanimous wish of the inhabitants, for which he would appeal to the Hon. Member for that town. The peace of the town, and the administration of justice had been completely neglected. There was hardly one out of four of the Magistrates who resided in Birmingham, and previous to the Corporation Act there was not one. Air. SCHOLEFIELD believed that it was by no means the unanimous wish of the town to have a stipendiary Magistrate. Sir R. PEEL explained that he had not proposed the ap pointment of a permanent stipendiary Magistrate, but that the organization of the Birmingham Policeshould be conducted on the model of the Metropolitan Police. Lord J. RUSSELL said, as to the proposition of a Commis sioner of Police, he did not like to express an opinion at once decidedly hostile to the proposal ; but he feared that some jealousy would be entertained against it in the town—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the appointment of a stipendiary Ma gistrate, at the time of the granting of the Charter he had re commended the Council to apply for 'the appointment ; but they had not acceded to his suggestion, which he had recently renewed. He was persuaded that it would be permanently beneficial that a stipendiary Magistrate should be appointed for Birmingham as for Alanchester and Liverpool —( Hear, hear.) He felt that it was most desirable that all extraor dinary measures for maintaining peace should be done away with, and the usual means resorted to.—(Hear, hear. ) But he wished to say, that although it was usual to ascribe these riots to the proceedings of persons advocating what they called the" Ch arter "— us i ng th e mos t v i ru l en t an d inflamma tory language—that in the course of last summer, and even previously, there was an anterior agitation set on foot, by per sons pretending to have an exclusive regard for the poor, and a counterfeit benevolence—( Hear, hear) —employing the most intemperate language—in the northern counties especially— endeavouring to influence the people against the PoGr-law, and the laws regulating labour—such persons, for instance, as Mr. Oastler.—( Hear, hear.) These proceedings had been most conducive to the disturbances which had occurred, and were very difficult to meet, because they were not directed to at once overturning the institutions of the country, the general division of property, and other insane projects, which natu rally excited the almost universal opposition of the country, but took the appearance of a regard for the condition of the labour ing population, and pretended to be aimed solely at their benefit.—(Hear.) True these topics of the Poor-laws and the factories, &c. were not now declaimed about by the present agitators, but there could be no doubt that they had been the means of creating w'cle and dangerous discontents —( Hear. ) Air. WAKLEY said he had opposed the Speaker's leaving the Chair at first, upon a matter of form only, conceiving that the Noble Lard had made out no case for pre-audience, and, indeed, being of that opinion still, but he had not objected to the principle of the Bill—oi which he approved—for whether Birmingham had had riot or not, he considered it essential that all towns should have a good police.—(Hear, hear.) There was scarcely a sentiment in the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet in which he did not concur, though he thought it ex traordinary that the Right Hon. Baronet should be so strenu ous for Corporations in England, and should be opposed to Mu nicipal Police in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The plan proposed by the Noble Lord in this Bill was unobjec tionable and likely to remove all hostility. But if the Noble Lord had proposed to appoint a Commission under the immediate control of the Government, he should have offered it his most persevering and unrelenting opposition ; for nothing, in his opinion, could be more pernicious to liberty than doing away with the local institutions of a community.—( Hear, hear. ) He could not help saying that he deemed it very extraordinarythat Birmingham, which had been se much the scene of declamation on the general principles of liberty and reform, should have been for such a long period without an efficient police.__ ( Hear, hear.) It taught him to distrust these general profes sions, and to believe that of all reforms those were the best which began at home.—( Hear, hear. ) Sir R. PEEL observed that there were 8,000 police in Ireland under the Government, and that so far from the Mu nicipal Bill giving the Corporations the control of the police, the Dublin Police were expressly excluded from the Corpora tion management. _ ... Mr. OtONNELL had no objection to give the Corporation of Birmingham in the first instance the management of the po lice, but he was sure a very little experience would convince them that it would be better for the peace of the town, and their own ease and quiet, that the police should be under a commission, such as had succeeded so well in London and Dublin.—( Hear, hear.) He was sorry that the Right Hon. Baronet should have given countenance to the cry which had been raised against the Metropolitan Police, so groundlessly, for the riots had existed several days before they arrived in the town, and unless the Magistracy were to call on the military what were they to do? —( Hear, hear.) Sir R. PEEL disclaimed any intention to reflect on the police—he only spoke against the system of unnecessarily em ployng iilr. - O'CONNELL explained. He thought under existing circums .ances what the Right Hon. Baronet had said bore the appearance of countenancing the cry against the police. Mr. T. ATTWOOD said there were three or four bodies in Birmingham capable of organizing a police. There were the Street Act Commissioners, 108 in number, who might raise 1,000 policemen if necessary, and had funds sufficient to sup- port them by rates on the inhabitants. There was also the Court Leet appointing the two constables, by which the peace of the town had formerly been kept, and who might swear in any number of specials, to be paid if required. Besides these, there was the Corporation. What need then of borrowing from the Treasury ?—( Hear, hear.) He thought it the first step to warls the establishment of that system of gendarmerie through the country, the very idea of which rankled in the hearts of the people, who had no objection to be governed as their fathers had been, by constables, elected by the va rious parishes.—(Laughter.) Why then seek to establish a force of police spies, bullies, and murderers?—(Hear.) He was very sorry that these disturbances had occurred—no man could regret thorn more—but he trusted that the bad feeling which unhappily existed in the lower classes towards the middle and upper ranks would soon subside. However if the House were to establish a Briareus, with 10,000 arms stretching amongst the people, he much dreaded what the con sequences would be. He would now ask the Noble Lord whe ther he meant that the Corporation of Birmingham should be self-acting or the tool of the Noble Lord, and whether the police of that town would be under their controul or that of the Government ?—( Question, question. ) Mr. FIF.LDEN reminded the House he had always warned them of what would occur. The feeling against the New Poor-law existed in every parish in England and Wales. The House had robbed them of their bread and of the charter they had for one hundred years. and now they expected them to be quiet. Did they expect that men, and mothers, and children, would submit to be starved without making any complaint? The House must first redress the wrongs of the people, or consequences would ensue which they must be responsible for, and repent when it would be too late. The motion was agreed to. The House then resumed, and Mr. BERNAL brought up the Report. Mr. HUME said, by the speech of the Hon. Member for Birmingham, it appeal ed the Corporation had made no appli cation whatever for money for the police force. It was a vo lunteer on the part of the Government. Sir T. FREMANTLE said no doubt the Corporation would make no difficulty about accepting the money.—(Laughter.) The question was how would it be repaid ? Lord J. RUSSELL said a special rate would be levied on the town of Birmingham for that purpose. Sir R. PEEL—The Noble Lord ought to introduce a clause in the preamble of the Bill, stating that the Corporation would pledge itself to make good the 10,0001.—( Laughter and hear, hear.) Th.,. resolution against proposing the advance of the 10,0001. out of the Consolidated Fund, to be re-paid out of a rate on the town, was then agreed to, leave being then given to bring in a Bill founded on the resolution. Lord J. RUSSELL brought in the Bill which was read a first time and ordered to be read a second ti.ne to-morrow. TRADE WITH WESTERN AFRICA. Mr. EWART moved for a copy of the correspondence on the subject of admitting coffee, the produce of free labour from within the British possessions on the western coast of Africa, which had taken place between Messrs. Foster, and Smith, and the Treasury. A considerable quantity of coffee from that country had been imported into this country by Messrs. Foster and Smith, but the Cestom-house authorities and the Trea sury refused to admit it unless it paid the usual duty paid by foreign coffee. His object was not now to censure the Trea sury for that refusal, but by moving for those papers to turn the attention of the public to the extension of our trade with Western Africa as the best means of mitigating and finally put ting an end to the horrid slave trade. That feeling had already lvgan, as was illustrated by one fact amongst several--namely, the importation of palm oil from that conntcy to Liverpool had increased from 90,000 to 2'20,000 tuns. He was happy to state also, that the native chiefs were now beginning to admit that it would be more for their interest to cultivate the produce of the land than to export their wretched fellow countrymen. The great importance of our trade with Western Africa was that it was carried on by barter. Mr. POULETT THOMSON had no objection to the production of the papers. The only question was whether, when produced, they would be found worth printing.—( Laughter.) The Treasury could not have acted otherwise than they had to wards Messrs Foster and Smith without violating the lasy. Ile concurred in all that had been said by his Hon. Friend on the importance of extending the West African trade, and he had the happiness to state that he had done a good deal to increase it, by diminishing as many of the duties on that produce as he could. But they could not reduce the duty on coffee without also reducing that on foreign coffee. He certainly had gone to the fullest extent he could in endeavouring to introduce the pro ducts of Africa at a cheap rate ; but it should be borne in mind that they could not make the reduction with regard to Africa without extending it generally to other foreign countries. He would observe further that there was a great portion of coffee introduced nominally from Africa, but really from other places. He would, in conclusion, say that the House should be very caut'ous in the steps it intended to pursue on the subject. Alderman THOMPSON was glad to hear his Right Hon. Friend state his intention of protecting their African produce, and hoped he would persevere in that course. He hoped also that her Majesty's Government would take measures to pro tect the British merchants trading on that coast, for there had recently been several outrages committed by the French upon British commerce, for which no redress could be obtained. After a few wards in reply from Mr. EWART, the motion was agreed to RAILWAYS (IRELAND), Mr. F. FRENCH moved an address to her Majesty, " praying that she will be graciously pleased to direct such measures to be taken as will secure to the different provinces in Ireland the advantages of railway communication." The subject which he was about to bring under the notice of the House was one of very great importance, and in which all par ties were interested. Ireland was a country which had been much traduced, partly from ignorance, and in many cases intentionally, but all she asked from the Parliament mmenetaonfs of remuneration justiceEnglamltvas and Let them b ut g i ve h er peop l e the employment, and there was little fear of the ultimate prosperity of the country. The Hon. Member then took a review of the formation of Railways in England, and the enormous expense that had been incurred in their formation, but the low and hurried manner in which he spoke prevented our catching his observations distinctly. The estimate for the London and Birmingham Railway was only half what it had cost in the formation. The estimate for the Grand Junction was 1,200,000/, and it had cost 2,400000/. The Great Western had exceeded the esti ma t e b y 70 per cent., and the Southamp ton was estimated at 90,000/, and had cost 260,000/. Much of that had resulted from leaving these undertakings to private enterprise instead of having them taken up by the Government. An HON. MEMBER here moved that the House be counted. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but there being forty Members present, Mr. FRENCH restmed—Both Houses had recorded a solemn pledge to advance the interests of Ireland, and ho could they reject the first measure proposed for that purpose ? He could not sit down without assuring the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland that the people of that country would long remembcr his efforts, 4nd should he bring the work • to a successful termination there was nothing in his political 1 career to which he could look back with greater satisfaction, / ,:;': :- ( ltt4 14 1 , , ii-1-- -- . 4 .... ,11 , .. . -, ::., -.. L 1 -- _, ...... -.„.:,- THE SUN, L even should his career be as long as the friends of Ireland could wish.—( Hear. ) Lord MORPETH would not attempt to give an answer to the Hon. Member who had made a very convincing speech in favour of the measure which the Government had proposed and the principles which he (Lord Morpeth) recommended to the adoption of the House. That plan had been unavoidably re linquished, and therefor) he felt precluded from sanctioning any step by which it might be understood that the Government xere about to undertake any plan for the promotion of railways. If at the beginning of the next Session he found that private en terprise had. not been able to complete the work which was so beneficial to Ireland, it would then be matter for consideration with the Government whether they should persevere in the course which they had recommended to the House. Mr. WYSE said that one advantage of the motion made by the Hon. Member was that it had elicited from the Noble Lord a declaration that the Government only waited a favourable opportunity to carry into effect their plan. He would give his support to any measure calculated to carry out the general improvement of all parts of the country. An Horr. MEstuEtt here moved that the House be counted, and there being only 36 Members present, the House adjourned at Half-past Eight. Irish Members present when the House was counted, during Mr. French's motion on Irish Railways :—French, Wyse, Lucas, Norreys, Cooper, Percival, Yates, Vigors, O'Brien. HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 23 The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at Five o'Clock. The Supreme Courts' (Scotland) Bill was read a third time, and passed. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from . . . a public meeting held at Edinburgh, signed by nearly 5,000 persons, praying their Lordships to take into consi deration' the law of Church patronage in Scotland. The Noble Duke also presented petitions from Derby. and other places in favour of a penny postage. Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI presented a pe tition from Galway, praying for an alteration in the Boun daries ( Ireland) Bill. A message from the Commons brought up several Bills. Lord EL LEN BORO UG H wished to put a question to the Noble Marquis opposite, respecting a subject which had been discussed last year while he was absent in Ireland, respecting the importation of Hill Coolies into Demerara. He had seen a Report of some Negro Commissioners, of whom he had never heard before, in which they gave a somewhat favourable account of the condition of the slaves of that country ; but with respect to the Hill Coolies they seemed to be in a very bad situation. Of 80 that lied been imported within a f.,iv months, 20 bed died, and 29 were described as being in a dreadful state. The hospital in which the unfortunate individuals who survived were, was dese. ibed as a pest house. He wished to know whether the Noble Marquis was in possession of a Report of that state of things, and whether there would be any objection to communicate it to the House. The Marquis of NORMANDY was not in possession of any official Report, but he had heard that those Coolies bad arrived, and it certainly did appear that there was something respecting their condition which required imme diate attention. Lord ELLENBOROUGH hoped that the Noble Marquis would give that immediate attention. The Noble Marquis was undoubtedly not responsible for such a state of things, but those who advised the emigration of the Hill Coolies, under that Order in Council, were deeply responsable. Lord BROUGHAM could not allow this opportunity to pass without expressing his approbation of what had just been stated by his Noble Friend opposite. This reminded him of the warning respecting the emigration of the Hill Coolies which he had given to their Lordships.. With refe rence to the individuals that had been just referred to the sur vivors of them were no doubt in a slate compared with which death itself would be a release to them from wretchedness ; they who had survived the murderous passage from their peaceful home to the charnel-house in Demerara. He knew the amount of the blood-guiltiness which hung over the heads they had no conscience—of those who one day hereafter, if not here, must be answerable for the murders committed in the middle passage, because the papers en their Lordship? table contained the astounding fact that twenty per cent. in one vessel perished on a voyage in five weeks, and between Asia and the Mauritius twenty per cent. in one week, and 30 in another, being a degree of mas sacre which exceeded the African middle passage itself. It waa painful to be obliged to recur to these matters, but the cases were of a very aggravated nature, and called for some explanation. It was said that two or three vessels had been seized on the Brazilian coast, which were engaged in the illegal slave traffic, and their wretched cargo (as they were called) of one thousand four hundred slaves, were, under : the pretence of being libe rated, apprenticed for a term of seven years at a premium of 5/. per head. And where? In foreign slave countries, where there was no security that they would be treated even so well as they were in Guiana, and he wished to know whether it was the practice for their cruizers to apprentice these unfortunate men in those countries where slavery still existed instead of car rying them to their own colonies, He hoped he would receive an answer denying these statements, which were corroborated and confirmed by private letters he ( Lord Brougham) had received. 'The Marquis of NORM AN B Y believed his Noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs had directed his atten tion to the subject, and he hoped to be able to give the Noble and Learned Lord a satisfactory answer in a few days. SPAIN. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY then rose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, relative to the war in Spain. In the present state of the contest in that country, he could not allow the session to close without obtaining some explanation from her Majesty's Government. He had moved for papers connected with the subject last Session, and if any of their Lordships bad had time to go through them, of which he had some doubt, —( Hear, hear)—they would find that all the attempts of this country at mediation between the Carlists and Christinos had tailed. After the Legion had returned to this coun try, they were obliged, at the eleventh hour, to de mand from the great powers of Europe their moral influences to put an end to the atrocities, and to consent to an exchange of prisoners. He firmly believed that if the Government had pursued that policy which he had advised for them, they never would have had these atrocities perpetrated, by which Europe and civilization had been incensed. He had moved fur these documents with the view of ascertaining what sup port was to be given to the Spanish Government by her Majesty's Ministers. He was anxious to know what cor respondence had passed between Lord J. Hay and the Chief, and what stores bad been sent to him. The whole of the returns were extremely partial, and every endeavour was made by them to fix upon the Carlists the cause of the Spanish war. The Noble Marquis then referred to a letter written by Cabrera, in which he denied the atrocity that had been attributed to him, and that he had refused quarter to the prisoners. He had alluded to the letter to show that partiality with which the returns had been drawn up. He thought the policy pursued by the Go vernment.with respect to Spain was g r ea tly to b e con demned, as it was calculated to increase the war and the disasters of Spain. He could not see why, as had been recommended by Count Nesselrode, the five Great Powers of Europe should not have sent Plenipotentiaries for the purpose of seeing if something could not be done for Spain ; but the truth was that the Government were powerless, boil in this country and that, for they could not even make an ar rangement with Spain by which the unfortunate men who had been kidnapped into their service should ba paid, or interest given them for their money upon their certificates. the Noble Marquis concluded by asking the following questions : —First—Whether there were any engagements, in the opinion of her M a j es ty' s Government, between Great Britain and France under the Treaty of Quadruple Alliance which prevented Great Britain from entering into a negociation with the other Allied Powers for the pacification of Spain ? Secondly--If Great Britain did not stand in the same situation as the other three Powers as to the affairs of Spain, why overtures had been made to them, and no reference made to the Quadruple Alliance ? Thirdly—Was it the intention of her Majesty's Govern ment to forego their efforts in the cause of Spain ? and Fourthly—Was it their intention to take more decisive measures with regard to liquidating the claims of the Bri tish Legion ? The Earl of CLARENDON—My Lords—l am sen sil,le that much apology is due on my part to your Lord ships for venturing at this moment to claim your Lord ships' attention for a short time, and to the Noble Marquis who has just sat down. I feel that particular apology is due for being about to adopt a course 14 hich is, I fear, irregular, and not waiting to address your Lordships till my Noble Friend on the left had replied to the questions of the Noble Marquis ; but, my Lords, as the Noble Mar quis has so pointedly adverted to me, and as I have no doubt that the answer of my Noble Friend will be satis factory to the Noble Marquis, and that your Lordships will consequently be unwilling to prolong this discussion, I am anxious first to offer a few remarks upon the speech of the Noble Marquis, and I trust that that indulgence, which I have never yet seen solicited in vain from your Lordships, will be extended to me, connected as my name is with the correspondence on your Lordships' table, which has given rise to the questions of the Noble Marquis, and having had the honour to be the Minister of this country in Spain since the commencement of the civil war in 1833 My Lords, the Noble Marquis has informed your Lordships of the grounds upon which he has thought it his duty to call the attention of your Lordships to the correspondence now on the table, but as the object sought by her Majesty's Government in mitigating the horrors of the war appears by the papers themselves to have been fully achieve'', and as the answer to the question he has put to her Majesty's Government is to be found in the correspondence itself, and that several weeks have now elapsed since these papers were presented to the House, without the Noble Marquis's sense of duty having moved him to make them a subject of discussion, I am rather inclined to believe that some other motive than that which the Noble Marquis has avowed, must have led to the course he has now taken, and that he considers the cause he has so long protected in Spain stands at this moment in peculiar need of his assistance—that the Noble Marquis, therefore, has come to the rescue less out of de sire to see a termination put to the horrors c,f a civil war, which afflict a portion of the Peninzula, than from the fear he may entertain that if the mediation which he is so anxious to bring about be too long deferred it may arrive too late. My Lords, I know that the subject of Spanish affairs is one which must be irksome to your Lordships, and that few among your Lordships can he inclined to y th o e f re all therefore in the taken newspapers the spa l p ib e e rs liberty read what is c onnecte d w i th them in the public papers. I informing latelymin Lord ships,gyobueren pub lished, by the authority of the Spanish Government, some intercepted correspondence between Don Carlos and Ca brera and the exiled Ministers of that Prince, by which it appears that Don Carlos is carrying on an intrigue against his General, Maroto, in whom he pretends to confide, but whom in his heart he detests. My Lords, as it probably will not be in your Lordships' memory how that General came to occupy his present post, I shall briefly state the facts as they are illustrative of the position in which Don Carlos must now find himself. Marotto shot—without trial, or the form even of accusation or condemnation, six of his brother Generals, whom he looked upon as personal rivals, for which he was proclaimed to be a traitor by Don NDON, WEDNESDAY, JULY 24, 1839. Carlos, Maroto (in order, probably, to prove that be ' was neither), then marched his army against his King, and Don Carlos, upon his approach, issued another proclama tion, recalling the first, and ordering it to be burnt in every town and village (and when a noxious document is ordered to be burned in Spain, it is so by the common hangman), and Don Carlos further expressed his anxious hope that this would be received as a satisfaction by his faithful subject Maroto, whose loyalty nothing but the calumnies of perfidious advisers could for a moment have induced him to doubt. Maroto accepted the apology, which for ever degraded Don Carlos, and made himself supreme. He banished all the confidential advisers of Don Carlos, appointed his own Ministers, and has since that time virtually been So vereign in that part of the country. Since that time, however, Don Carlos, in order to recover his lost power, has not ceased to intrigue against him ; and, as the inter cepted correspondence goes on to show, there is now so much disunion among the Carlists, the want of means is so great, and the discontent so general, that the cause never was considered to be in so disastrous a plight. I know this to be the opinion of some of the most influen tial Carlists bath in and out of Spain ; and as their fears have, in all probability, been caught by the Noble Mar. quis, he may have thought, by the course he has this day adopted, to throw his shield over Don Carlos, and to hide his protege's distress by placing him on the same footing with the Queen of Spain, and invoking the medi ation of the great Powers of Europe, as if the belligerent parties were on terms of equality. By the papers on your Lordships' table, your Lordships will see that her Majesty's Government, complying with the request of the Spanish Government, addressed itself to the three Nor thern Courts, and asked their intervention with Don Carlos, to cause a stop to be put to the revolting atrocities committed by his Generals, which ren. dered retaliation on ti'e part of the Queen's Ge nerals a matter of melancholy, but unavoidable, necessity. The Courts of Russia, Prussia, and Austria responded to the invitation thus made to them in a manner which did them infinite honour ; and Count Nesselrode, going still further, suggested in his dispatch to Count Pozzo di Borgo, and his note to Lord Clanricarde, that some means should be adopted for putting an end to the war. The Noble Viscount at the bead of the Foreign Department was, I know, ready and most anxious to avail himself of the indication, for I can call it nothing-else, of the Russian Minister, but it was necessary for him first to ascertaic upon what basis Russia and the other Powers would join with England and Francein any negotiations, as it was clear that England and France, having recognised e the Queen of Spain, and being bound to her by the QuadruPle Treaty, would not secede from the obligations that those acts imposed : and I will ask the Noble Marquis, and ask it fearlessly, would he, if he had at that time been con ducting the foreign affairs of this country—would he have acted differently ? Would he have.disregarded the solemn compact by which this country is bound to the Queen of Spain ? Would he have admitted Don Carlos, whatever may be his opinion of that Prince's rights, or respect for his character, to treat upon terms with_ the Queen? Would he have considered the Government of England to be in the same position as that of Russia, which had re, cognized neither the Queen nor Don Carlos ? I feel sure be would not. I feel sure that he must know too well the value of a treaty to have acted differently from the Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs—( Hear, hear)—and that, like him, he would have felt no further steps could be taken in the matter, while Count Nesselrode, replying to his inquiries, said, that for his part he had no suggestions to make. I will also ask the Noble Marquis if he is aware of the existence of a protocol, agreed to by the principal Powers of Europe, and signed at Aix-la-Chapelle in 1818, by which it is specifically agreed that if in future the interference of these Poitiers should become desirable for the arrangement of the internal affairs of any other nation, such interference should never take place except at the express desire of that nation, whose representative should always assist at the delibera tions of the Congress which might in consequence be as sembled. How then, my Lords, in the teeth of this most just and politic compact between the Sovereigns of Europe, could 'a Congress have been assembled for the settlement of the affairs of Spain, unasked for by Spain ? and what representative of Spain could have attended such a Con. gress ? It is clear that England and France must have insisted that a Plenipotentiary of the Queen should attend, and only the Queen's Plenipotentiary, because, having ac knowledged the Queen's rights, they could not have per mitted the claims of a Pretender to the Throne to b 3 re presented at the Congress. But would the Northern Powers have been satisfied with having Spain so re presented, as they have not acknowledged the Queen ? and would they have had any right to insist upon the presence of an agent from Don Carlos, when they have not recognized either ? But the Noble Marquis now appears to think, or rather he says, that future steps ought to have been taken, and that if the three Powers had been agreed the Spaniards must have yielded. But here let me remark, that in this question of agreement lies the whole difficulty, and prevents the case of Belgium from being a parallel case. All the Powers were agreed upon the re cognition of Belgium ; and that, and that alone, rendered their joint co-operation possible. Would it have been possible, if England and France had recognized the inde pendence of .Belgium, as they were bound to do, and that the Northern Powers bad asserted the right of the King of Holland to the Throne of Belgium—would a Con gress, meeting upon such a basis, have led to any good result ? And its the same way could England and France have consented to a Congress at which the claims of—Don Carlos to the Throne of Spain were to be supported ; and if such claims were not brought forward, and the rights of the Queen recognized, the Congress would be unnecessary; for were the Northern Powers to withdraw their support and aid from Don Carlos, the war would soon be at an end. But let me ask the Noble Marquis upon what grounds he says the Spaniards would have yielded ? Does he draw his deductions upon that point from history, or experience, or his knowledge of Spanish character. He must have strangely confused them if he thinks what he says for I can tell him that neither threats nor protocols of Foreign Powers would have any more influence upon Spaniards than they would upon Englishmen, and their only la suit would be to unite all classes of Spaniards in one bond of resistance to the Powers by which their nationality was menaced. True it is that the combined armies of Europe might march into Spain, and establish there any system of Government that a Congress of Sovereigns might think fit to to such an e decree; xpeie but expedient—or if li the Noble Marquis were, r e q r uis prepared to resort does he think the Powers of Europe would be prepared to march with him— or if they were, does he think that the Government they bad set up in Spain would endure one hour after the last foreign soldier had recrossed the frontier? I have some experience of that country, and the Noble Marquis may take my word, that the unsolicited intervention of fo reigners in the political institutions of Spaniards, will always be a miserable failure; and so it ought to be, and greatly it redounds to the honour of Spaniards which rendered Marquis will, I trust, see that tit here s h f o o u r l e d ai b l e t t s e o. e r e T u m h e s t a ll o o c h e I s e unpo pular, the accomplishment of what he desired, and which would, if practicable, have, I am convinced, been allowed by her Majesty's Government with as much readiness and satisfaction as the Noble Marquis himself woule have dis played. I believe, however, the Noble Marquis will admit that the papers on your Lordships' table prove that British agency was well directed and productive of good re sults, as regards the mitigation of the civil war in Lower Arragon, and that through our means much human suffer ing was diminished and many lives were spared ; and thus, through the intervention of her Majesty's Government, a state of things has been brought about, quite as important and quite as much called for as that which the Eliot Convention established. The Noble Marquis blames my Noble Friend at the head of foreign affairs, because the Eliot treaty was not made to extend throughout the whole of Spain. My Lords, it was impossible. I wish to heaven it bad been ; but those who talk on the subject, as the Noble Marquis has done, are really not aware of the facts. At all times of political disturbance in Spain, there are never wanting bands of robbers and malefactors, who start up in every quarter, and raise a standard of revolt in their own particular district for the mere pur poses of crime, and to have made the Eliot Couven tion applicable to such men would have been suffi cient of itself to have quadrupled, aye, and far more than quadrupled, their numleers, by offering be forehand impunity for their offences. It vvoul have led to every class of bad consequences, and never would have been carried into effect but in the Basque Provinces, where two armies were in the presence of each other, depots of prisoners and a regular cartel for their exchange would be established, The treaty was practicable—it proved a real blessing, added another item to the immense debt of gratitude which the Spanish nation owes to the Noble Duke opposite, a debt which I must say is always cheerfully and cordially acknowledged. Much praise is likewise due to my Noble Friend Lord E., who displayed great ability and tact in negotiating the treaty ; but I am also in justice bound to say that the Spanish Government met the proposal of the Noble Duke in precisely the same spirit in which it was made to them as on every other occasion the Government and Generals of the Queen manifested a desire (of which they have omitted no occasion to prove the sincerity) that the wee should be carried on according to the usages of civilized nations, and here, my Lords, I must beg to say in answer to the unwarrantable remarks of' the Noble Marquis, and with rsferenee to the evidence to be found in the papers now en your Lordships' table, that when officers such as Co!. Wylde, and Col. Lacy, and Col. Alderson, men of high and unimpeachable honour, who arc bound by honour, as well as duty, carefully to collect and fa i t hfull y to r eport to her Majesty' s Government every thing that occurs in the different corps td which they arc attached ; when such men beer evidence to the humane conduct of the Queen's Generals, and to their unceasing efforts to secure the war being carried on with humanity ; and when I myself de clare upon my honour that I have found the same feelings to exist in all the different Ministers and Generals with whom I have been in official relation, and who have inva riably acted upon every suggestion of mine that had for its object the mitigation of the war, I say, my Lords, it is most hard, it is most unjust, to confound such men, and their intentions, and their acts, with the hordes of banditti who spring up on all sides, and are invested with authority, by Don Carlos, in order to carry devastation through the country, to pillage the inhabitants, and to strike terror among the loyal subjects of the Queen—conduct which is only natural, after all, for these men spring from the dregs of the people, and their existence and power depend upon their atrocities—it is shameful, my Lords, to confound such men with the Ministers and Generals of the Queen, m en of education and enlightenment, and humanity. The out rage is deeply felt by them, and they cannot but be in dignant that such opinions should be current in England, and more particularly among Foreign Powers, and their Representatives at the different Courts of Europe, wh o have doubtless their own : part,cumr purposes to serve in representing the two parties now contending in Spain as not only equal in power but rivals in barbarity. And, my Lords, while talking of Foreign Powers and their Re presentatives, I may be permitted to advert to the scheme which is, I know, most in vogue with them, and which they are constantly urging as the only means of arranging the affairs of Spain, but which, if it were not absolutely im practicable, would be of all others the most disastrous, namely, the marriage of Don Carlos' son with the Queen. My Lords, upon this I have, in the first place, to observe that it would be the surrender of rights on both sides, which it is utterly hopeless to expect, for all who know any thing about that Prince, or the fanatical party in whose bands he is a mere puppet, are aware that nothing short of his being absolute, despotic King of Spain will satisfy - him ; he therefore never would consent to abdicate his (Urns in favour of his son. Then, as to the Queen Regent, even supposing she would disregard every politi cal consideration, and abandon the party by which she has hitherto been supported, can any one expect that she, a mother as well as a Regent, should devote her daughter to the life of misery that such a marriage would render in evitable, and permit to be enacted over again in Spain the farce that was attempted in Portugal by the marriage of Don Miguel with Donna M a ria, wich proved, as might have been foreseen, a miserable failure. But even were all difficulties of this kind overcome, a plan for placing the representatives of two antagonist principles upon the same Throne, and for ensuring the co existence of two rival and exasperated parties incapable of compro mising their difficulties, can only be considered a plan for sowing the seeds of eternal civil war. My Lords, it is only the fear of wearying your Lordships prevents my pointing out the countless evils to which this project for tranquilizing Spain must give rise. My Lords, in my opinion, the Spanish question has not been rightly understood in England, either in its general character or in its detai!si Nor is this to be wondered at, for Spain differs in many essential points from every European country? and as the Spanish question is generally viewed and argued upon according to our experience, and by the analogies drawn from the history and character of other countries, the ques tion becomes embarrassed rather than illustrated by dis cussion. I am far from regretting, however, that such difficulties have not deterred the Noble Marquis from con stantly bringing the affairs of Spain under the considera tion of your Lordships ; indeed, I think, that any Member of Parliament who promotes discussion upon foreign affairs does a great public good, for it is astonishing, and at the same time lamentable, how great an apathy exists in Eng land with regard to our relations with foreign countries, and how much indifference there is as to whether our inte rests in every part of the world are properly protected— whether the reciprocal obligations of treaties are properly observed—whether everything that is good in the laws, institutions, and practices of a foreign country, is carefully collected and sent home—and, above all, whether every opportunity is turned to account for extending our com mercial relations ; for these, my Lords, I apprehend in the present times are the real duties of diplomacy. It is always, therefore, with satisfaction that I see any subject connected with our foreign relations discussed in Parlia ment, in order that the country may have an opportunity of learning its true position with regard to other nations. I would certainly have wished that the Noble Marquis had been somewhat more accurate in his statements with reference to Spain, and I hope your Lordships will so far extend your indulgence to me as to allow of my making a few remarks upon the last speech of the Noble Marquis upon this subject ; for he has in that so much misrepresented the real state of things in Spain, unintentionally I am quite sure, that he has laboured under the difficulty which all more or less experience, in arriving at accurate informa tion upon Spain ; but from his speech this evening, I see no reason to think that his opinions have undergone any variation. My Lords, in that speech of the Noble Marquis, delivered I think on the 18th of June last year, the Noble Marquis was pleased to speak of me in terms of a very un flattering description. I shall now only reply 'ey admitting his or any other person's complete right to canvass the public conduct of a public servant, and to assure the Noble Marquis that as I differ with him upon every point con nected with Spain, I cannot say that. I expected to merit his approbation, neither, indeed, can I say that I was am bitious of it. I shall not think it necessary to allude to the Noble Marquis's reflections and predictions on the steady increase of Don Carlos's force, further than to beg your Lordships to remember that the whole of Gallicia, the Asnirias, Leon, Estremadura, Andalusia, Upper Ar ragon, and the two Castiles, are as peaceable as they ever were at any period of Spanish history, and as com pletely attached to their lawful Sovereign ; and that the civil war only exists, where it has so long been confined, in the Basque Provinces, in a portion of Lower Arragon and Valencia, and in a small district of Catalonia, the whole of which isamontainous and of most difficult access. Arid I will then ask your Lordships what is to be thought of the increasing power of Don Carlos, and whether it is best, or politic, or likely to serve any practical object, to place him upon a footing of equality With the Queen ? In the parts of the country I have just named the war still exists, and may continue to do so for some time, and while it lasts the Government must be feeble, and the a hole country must suffer for the portion of it which is so afflicted. That peace has not been re stored there can only be accounted for by the fact, that Spaniards make war now in precisely the same manner that they used to do—in the manner which must be familiar to us all through the despatches of the Noble Duke opposite. ' My Lords, upon those des patches, which have, if it be possible, placed the Noble Duke's fame upon a still more imperishable basis than it stood before, I feel it is next akin to presumption in me to offer even the humblest tribute of,admiration. My only excuse is, the six years I have passed in Spain, during the whole of which time the country has been in war ; and my Lords, it requires to have lived in Spain under such cir cumstances to appreciate those despatches at their full worth—to understand the enormous difficulties with which the Noble Duke had to contend, and his unrivalled merit in overcoming them. My Lords, there is hardly one of those despatches in,shioh a man haying a thorough know ledge of Spain and Spaniards would not fill up some hiatus and supply omissions which would redound to the glory of the Noble Duke, and prove the unassuming character of true greatness. My Lords, I feel I ought to apologize to your Lordships, and especially to the Noble Duke, for having thus yielded to the temptation of expressing the feelings I have entertained ever since I had the satisfac ti n of reading those despatches, and I shall now only (ATI. a few remarks upon that portion of the Noble Mar quis's speech last year, in which he casts a great and unde served slur upon Spaniards by assuming that they feel dis gust at the free institutions endeavoured to be forced upon them. The Noble Marquis, from the whole tenor of his speech, means to convey the idea—the absolutely erroneous idea—that the attempt to force these institutions upon Spaniards was made by her Majesty's Government, and as so much has been said respecting Spain, and so little that is really accurate is known, it may be matter of interest, if not of importance, to the people of this country to know what these institutions were likely to effect for Spaniards, what their feeling is towards them, and what interest England has in the success of the Queen's cause. My Lords, there is no greater error than to suppose that Span iards are unfit for freedom or averse to a Liberal form of Government ; their own municipal institutions are the freest and most popular in the world ; they existed in Spain when the feudal system obtained in the rest of Eu• rope ; although we have heard much lately in this House respecting municipal institutions—and certainly they are not here spoken of with much veneration—l consider them as the best trainers for freedom, and the system which ren ders men the most fit to be entrusted with liberty. It is certainly true that Spain has for centuries been under the double yoke of a kingly and a priestly despotism, with all the train of degradation and corruption that they bring with them; but it is true that she has seized the first oppor tunity of emancipating herself, and the sacrifices to which that nation now submits, and all the horrors of civil war which Spaniards now endure, arc proofs of their conviction that the objects which they have in view more than outweigh the difficulties with which ' their attainment is surrounded ; but the contest they are eegaged in is not sterile, they have already gained, and gained much ; they have made such despotism as they before endured in future impossible. Were Don Carlos en the throne he could not restore it. He would try. The bloody and fanatical party in whose hands he must always b a blind and wretched, though not unwilling instrument, would try It ; they would confiscate, and banish, and gibbet, but they wuuld fail ; and I am convinced that if Don Carlos were upon the throne he would, in the course of one twelvemonths, do more to injure the monarchical system, and to render monarchy abominable than all the revolutions and constitutions that can be conceived would ffsct in a century. It is true I am convinced that the Northern powers of Europe would perceive their error in having supported a cause without being fully acquainted a'ih its objects, and a man who must render order and good government in Spain impossible,and I art sure that order add good government, by whatever means established, i 3 all that those Powers in reality desire; they can have no other object and no other interest ; but Spaniards of the present day have rendered any return to the despotism of former times impossible, and I say that in thus setting as ide all feelings of philanthropy, we have cause for satisfaction, aud that it is for our interest that events should take the turn they are now doing in Spain. Let any man compare the system—the brutal, barbarous system which existed under Ferdinand, when the priests exercised their tyranny and heir vengeance without control—when correspondence w.ith a relation exiled for his political opinions was punish able by death—when every domestic tie was loosened by the vilest system of espionage—when knowledge was cri mina, a a ' end u liver3itie3 were close], and coll eges f or nes :mil-fighters opened--let any one compare such a system with she one which prevails now, imperfect as it is in many points. But it has produced popular representation, free discussion, and a free press. They have produced what was impossible before—public opinion ; and that has la it ineesure corrected what was inevitable under the government of Ferdinand—corruption. The consequences of these are, that life and property (except in those parts ifflicted by the civil war) arc more secure, that the reve nues of Spain are more than one half greater than they were ever known to be before—that an enormous class of proprietors has been created by the sale of national pro. party—that capital flews into more wholesale and useful channels--that education makes rapid advances, and agri culture is advancing—and, notwithstanding all the horrors of war, Spain is at this moment laying a foundation for future prosperity incalculably more solid than at the time when, for her misfortune, she discovered America, and lost all stimulus to future exertion. My Lords, lam aware hat this account may appear to be exaggerated, but I say nothing but what I know, and I say it under all the re sponsibility that should attach to any statement deliberately made to your Lordships. Such is the state of things now in Spain, and I think it requires no extraordinary degree of intelligence to discover how that state is likely to be come advantageous to ua, and whether it is not pro liable we shall gain more from Spain liberal ised; than under the absolute government of Ferdinand. The Noble Marquis, in the speech to which I have al luded, inquires what commercial advantages we have gained in return for our alliance ? My Lords, it is the first time I have ever heard the alliance of Great Britain treated as a marketable commodity, and I think that the feeling of this country is of too noble and generous a cha racter to wish to turn the temporary distress of an ally to a selfish account, however desirable it may be to establish commercial relations with them upon a more liberal foot ing. And it would be but a short-sighted policy, for every commercial arrangement, in order to be permanent, should he based upon reciprocal commercial advantage; and if Spaniards involved in war are a little slow to comprehend the benefits of free trade, and have not yet perceived the necessity of an unrestricted interchange of productions with England (although the question is daily making progress), let us, my Loids, remark, that Spain is an agricultural country—that agricultural produce is all she has to give in exchange for our manufactures. Let t us remember our own Corn-laws, and the debates which not later than this year have taken place upon them in Parliament, and I think that even the Noble Marquis himself will be inclined to give the Spaniards a little further time for distinguishing more clearly the point at which monopoly and private interest should yield before the general good. Before we talk lightlyof other nations, to mea sure them by our own standard is Lut just towards them, and it may afterwards be useful to ourselves. Liberty in in Spain is, to be sure, but in its dawn, and struggling for existence, while ours, thank God, is upon an imperishable basis ; but, my Lords, bofore we look down with contempt upon Spaniards, from the height to which we have glo riously, but not without labour, ascended since our own civil wars, let us see in what manner they have hitherto used the liberty they have gained. I have already ad verted to the good effects which the creation of public opinion have produced, and I can assure your Lordships that both the people and their representatives have already given abundant proof that they understand and value a constitutional form of Government. The elections excite the greatest interest—every class of opinion is fairly represented in the Cortes, and the debates are conducted in the Chambers in a manner, and with a decorum, my Lo-ds, which are not unworthy even of our own conside ra ion. I have been in the constant habit of attending the debates in the Cortes, and I can assure your Lordships that I never saw more than one deputy or senator specking at the same time, nor did I ever see the Chamber justly exposed to being charged by its own members with habitual disorder in its proceedings. I ,have heard from Catholic Prelates in those Chambers, sentiments breathing as pure a spirit of Christian piety and religious toleration as those which emanate from the Right Rev. Prelates in this House. I have never failed to see the Government in those Chambers meet with the vigorous and constitutional opposition which every Government under a representative system ought to meet with, but I have also seen that oppo sition, whenever danger was imminent, lay aside all party spirit, and so far from endeavouring factiously to embarrass the Government, rally round it and be united as one man against the common danger~ywhich the country was threatened. I say then, my Lords, that Spaniards know how to appreciate the value and to enter into the spirit of Representative Government. Then in Spain the press is as free and unshackled as in England—the conduct of the Government and of every public functionary is canvassed with the utmost severity, and Juries are as unwilling to check the liberty, or it m a y b e th e li cen ti ousness , of the press in Spain as they arc in England ; and, my Lords, I may here be permitted to advert to a most remarkable fact as connected with the press. In Spain there is a Queen, and during her minority the Government is administered by the Queen Regent, and with regard to that august Per. soilage, I have never known any other language used by the press than that of respect and devotion. In times of trouble, and excitement, and civil war, the passions of Spaniards have never hurried them into expressions of dis respect towards their Sovereign. All the good that befell the nation was attributed to her, and the blame of every ill was laid upon her Ministers, and I only remember one in. stance of a foul libel upon the Queen Regent having been published, and I shall not easily forget the burst of public indignation with which it was received by all classes of Spa niards at Madrid. A Jury was not then found wanting to do its duty,and the author of the libel was condemned to thegreatest punishment which the law permitted. There was not a man who did not appear to think that an attempt to lower the dignity of the Crown was a national insult—an insult replete with evil and danger; and that publicly to calum niate a woman, and that woman the Queen, was a national degradation. I say then, my Lords, that if such is the use that Spaniards make of their new institutions—and I repeat that the fairest mode of trying their merit in so doing is by comparison with ourselves—the Noble Marquis is no more justified in saying that Spaniards have a disgust for their institutions, than he has to charge her Majesty's Ministers with having promoted political changes in that country, or to say that our policy in Spain led to the Canadian revolt, and the occupation of Algiers by the French, for such are the somewhat startling assertions to be found in the Noble Marquis's speech of last year. My Lords, I opine that we have never, directly nor indirectly, interfered with the political changes that have taken place in Spain ; but I do say that it is natural that our sympathies and good wishes should be enlisted on the side of a country struggling to rescue itself from oppression and degradation, and to recover its lost place among the nations of Europe. It is not only our sympathies, however, that should be enlisted in behalf of Spain, for I believe that a nation ought not to have sympathies, but should be guided by its interests ; and I say we have an enormous interest in the triumph of the Queen's cause—first, because it is by that triumph alone that the Peninsula can ever be tranquil, and enjoy and impart the blessings that tranquillity brings into it ; next, because it is to Spain, under liberal insti tutions, and not under an absolute form of Government, that we must look for a useful ally—that we may expect to find a wealthy customer for our productions, and new markets for our manufactures, and a friend instead of an enemy in our political relations with the rest of Europe ; and in the present state of these relations neither friends nor enemies arc to be despised. My Lords, I have not the presump tion to expect that I can in way influence the opinions of the Noble Marquis respecting Spain ; but I cannot con ceive that those opinions are held in common with many of your Lordships, for lam sure that whoever has read the history of Europe rightly, as connected with Spain, and more especially for the last 150 years, must acknowledge that the power, prosperity, and above all, in the indepen dence of Spain we are deeply interested. Her Majesty's Government having taken this view, this, in my opi nion, most just and proper views of .the interests of Great Britain have, during the last six years, ren dered very important services to Spain, for which that country, whatever the Noble Marquis may think to the contrary, is profoundly grateful, and for my own part I only regret that that debt of gratitude should not be greater, and that circumstances should have prevented her Majesty's Government from more effectually assisting the Queen of Spain. I regret that the restoration of Spain to that rank among nations which she is beyond all ques tion destined again to occupy, should not have been more exclusively owing to the aid which in her hour of difficulty she received from this country. My Lords, I have only now to thank your Lordships sincerely for the attention with which you have been pleased to listen to me, and again to apologize for having obtruded myself upon your notice ; but, my Lords, connected as I have been with Spain, and knowing as I do how sensitively alive Spa niards are to the good opinion of Englishmen, and how deeply mortified they have been at the misrepresentations which have been current respecting them in England, I was anxious to avail myself of the only opportunity that can occur during the present Session of Parliament to record (although I may have done it in a feeble and in effectual manner) the opinion which, by close observation, I have conscientiously formed of that brave and generous, but (in this country) much misrepresented people. Viscount MELBOURNE said that after the eloquent specch'of his Noble Friend, he should merely confine him self to answering the questions put by the Noble Lord. But considering the observations by which the Noble Lord had introduced those questions t ) the House, it was natural and proper that his Noble Friend should take that oppor tunity of making that statement which he had just now so eloquently laid before their Lordships.—(Cheers.) In answer to the first question, he would state that there was no engagement contracted by the treaty of the Quadruple Alliance, which prevented Great Britain from entering into negotiations with the other Powers for the pacification of Spain. It was impossible that such could be the case. That treaty was known to all the Powers of Europe, and had been laid on the tables of both Houses of Parliament ; but although there was nothing in that treaty preventing our entering into negociations with the other Powers for the pacification of Spain, yet what had been stated by his Noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was certainly correct, that they were placed in a different situation from other parties, for, having acknowledged the Queen of Spain, we were bound to ask what were the grounds of any proposed negotiation before entering into it. These were the particular steps to which they were bound by the treaty of Quadruple Alliance, and it had been stated to Count Nesselrode, in reply to his note, that it was the most anxious desire of this country to embrace every oppor tunity that could be afforded for finding means of bringing the unfortunate state of affairs in that country to a satis factory termination. The Noble Lord had said that this country had received the assistance of the three great Powers in settling the affairs of Belgium, but the three great Powers had been engaged in the settlement of these affairs from the commencement. It was true the conferences had been interrupted, but they had never been absolutely dissolved. With respect to the Eliot Convention, he was not going to enter into a discussion respecting the atrocities which had been committed. According to the last accounts, by an arrangement which had taken place between General Ayerbe and Cabrera, it appeared that they were justified in hoping that the provisions of that Convention would become general. But he must say, from the papers laid on the table of that House, and from the evidence of Colonel Wylde, there could be little doubt as to who commenced these atrocities and cruelties, and which party had carried them to the greatest extent; but he trusted they would now be brought to a speedy termination on both sides. The ex planation given by his Noble Friend of the reasons why the Convention bad not originally been extended to the whole of Spain was satisfactory, that it would be exceed ingly impolitic to extend the Convention to those parts where Don Carlos had no force, and where it would be taken advantage of by marauders and robbers. With re spect to the claims of the Legion, all that could be done at present was to ascertain the amount of claims due. Every one was aware of the penury of the Spanish Government, but he hoped eventually those claims would be met, and no exertions should be wanted to urge them on the attention of the Spanish Government.— ( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had concluded by a violent attack on her Majesty's Government for having by their p o li c y ten d e d to lower this countryN in the Whether the of the other Powers of Europe. —(Cheers. h al e e Mel bourne) had his own opinion conduct of the Noble Lord was like l y to restore us to that position, it was for others t n o o c n o t n h s a id t e s r ubj . e H et e . The Duke of WELLINGTON congratulated their o Lordships the hope that they s hould at len gth see an end puttot n his disastrous and disgraceful system of war fare. He should not have troubled their Lordships on this subject, lied he not imagined that the Noble Earl oppo. site, who had se eloquently addressed their Lord ships, and the Noble Viscount also, were labouring under some misapprehension as to the part which he (the Noble Duke) had acted. He had frequently stated that the position which this country should assume, in order to obtain the object, which it appeared was at last likely to be attained, was to assume its real position under the Quadruple Treaty, and not to appear in the character of a belligerent —( Cheers.) Let them acknowledge the Queen of Spain if they pleased, and grant such assistance as they were bound to grant by the treaty of Quadruple Alliance, but let them do no more. Let them remain strictly neutral, in all matters connected with carrying on the war. He had said long ago, that if her Majesty's Government had assumed this position, they must la ye had influence to put an end to this system of warfare ; and the proof of the justice of this opinion was, that at the very first hint of a Power which was in a strict state of neutrality, the thing was done, and if her Majesty's Go vernment had occupied the position of the Austrian Go- EVENING ItaITI ON. vernment, they would have possessed the same power. The country its 1834 had taken its real position, and the , Eliot Convention had been the consequence. Had the d Government maintained the some position it would have been enabled to continue in the same beneficial course, and ILicl that course been pursued it would be impossible to foretel what might have been the result at this period. He certainly hoped that it might have been attended with that most happy of all results, the pacification and esta blishment of such a Government as should tend to ensure the peace and happiness of all the worthy inhabitants of that country. Ile would now turn to another subject, on which he thought the Noble Vis count mistook the position respecting the great alliance of Europe. The Noble Earl said we could not enter into negociaeons because uf the Quadruple Treaty. This was not the fact ; we could not enter into a conference with the other three allies, because Great Britain was a belli gerent—(Cheers)—the other three allies had not acknow ledged the Queen—thay were rather inclined to acknow ledge the other parties—but they had maintained their position as strict neutrals, but England stood in the posi tion of a belligerent, and it was quite obvious that no conference could take place between parties thus situated. The Government might have entered into negotiation with the other Powers of Europe for the pacification of Spain, but he trusted it would never be upon the basis laid down by the Noble Earl—not by marines and sailors, but by the moral influence of this country acting along with her Allies. That was the way in which the matter ought to have been settled. That was the way in which he had alway s contended it ought to h ave been done.—( Cheers. ) Ilewould not ask them to break any treaty—perform them to the very letter ; do all in theirpower to settle the Crown upon the head of the Queen, but do not attempt to do it by a little war. The papers on the table showed that he was right from the beginning. The Government now had it in their power to put an end to the war in Spain by agreeing to the offer of a negotiation with the other Powers, and he hoped they would do so. Lord BROUGHAM would not have taken any part in the discussion were it nut that he could not let the oppor tunity pass without congratulating the country upon the state of our foreign relations as st..ted by his Noble Friend (Earl Clarendon). It was unfortunate that foreign affairs occupied so little of the attention of the public and of Par liament that the Governmcnt were almost irresponsible. In consequence of what had taken place—in consequence of the atrocities which had been committed—he had been induced to reconsider the whole matter, and he was dis posed to doubt not only the expediency but the lawfulness of this country interfering in the domestic concerns of an other country. He would not say that a case might not arise which might render such an interference expedient and necessary, but it would require a very strong measure to justify the people of one nation taking part in a quarrel in another country. It must b e with feelings anything but closely allied to pride, or exultation, that the English looked at what had taken place, and at occurrences et which they had assisted. They certainly were not in , ' plicated in the atrocities which had taken place, but they continued to bear arms along with those who committed them—committed atrocious murders in cold blood. H e had reconsidered the opinion which he had given four years ago, and he very much doubted wheth er it w as law ful for any one to go to war, except at th e com mand of the Civil Magistrate of his own country. R evo l t i n g atro cities had been committed on both sid es , an d o ught to have opened the eyes of all who were ass i st i ng t h e m. The Marquis of L 0 ND OND ERRY briefly replied. He was glad to hear that Spain was so prosperous--wht then did not the Government enf odce t h e p a yment 0, our soldiers who had served h er , as we ll as t h e l o ans she bad contracted. He totally d en i e d t h at t h e massacr es ori ginated on the part of Carlists, a s was i nstance d in the death of Cabrera's mother and L os S antos . The Earl of CLARENDON sa id L os S an t os was a man who took up arms withi n a wee k a f ter t h e d e ath or Ferdinand—he was taken, tried, and shot as any oth er traitor would. POWER OF MAGISTRATES. The Duke of RICHMOND said, as the Secretary for the Home Department had, in another place, s aid that County Magistrates had concurrent jurisdiction with Ma gistrates in boroughs, in opposition to the opinion of two Noble Lords in that House, and as it was very important that all Lords Lieutenant should know the real state of the law, he bogged to know from the Noble and Learned Lora on the Woolsack, how the matter really stood. It was a mos t important point, for supposing there had been a county f Magistrate in Birmingham, an d h e h a d re f use d to act, the law was one way he would be liable to prosecution , while, if it was the other way, he would have been liable to prosecution if he had acted. The LORD CHANCELLOR would take time for inquiry before giving an opinion. Viscount MELBOURNE would advise Noble Lords and country gentlemen to pay but little attention to legal opinions delivered in that House in debate. Lord ELLENBOROUGH said the matter was a veil serious one, as the opinion was delivered in that House by the Lord Chief Justice, and he was seconded by an ea' Lord Chancellor. After a few words from the Duke of WELLINGTON an d the Earl of DEVON, The Duke of RICHMOND said he only wanted to have the question set at rest. He thought the Secretary of State ought to write a ciroular letter to all Lords Lieu' tenant, informing them of the real state of the law. The Noble Duke then presented a petition, signed in 12 hours, by 12,000 merchants and others in London, praying for an uniform rate of postage upon the plan of Mr. Hill. If he had had an opportunity of presenting the petition at an earlier period of the evening, he would have thought it his duty to have made some observations on this subject. Some years since lie had stated he thought the p o stage ought to be reduced, because it operates as a very unequal tax, and there had been more petitions presented on this subject than on any other. He felt that nothing would be more easier than for the Postmaster-General and his officers to regulate the whole matter, but the difficulty that was felt was, that it would cause a loss to the revenue. He hoped before the Bill then before the House of Com mons was brought into their Lordships' House the fullest information on this subject would be afforded. He should like to know from the Government if they had any estimote of what the number of letters likely to be sent through the post would be? His opinion was that the measure that had been introduced into the other House would pass into a law ; but great care ough t to be taken that the revenue suffered as little as possible' There ought to be a clause inserted in the Bill, preventing ou fo n r t for by t r i a l i e lro ca ad rria p g ro e pri t weight. If four or five t i me s the number of letters wer e of e l o e r t s t er s. u e g x h t t r a to va g b a e n t paid did now. He understood the cost of carria ge by the sent, they would ch ar g e four or fiv e times more than they Bir mingham Railway was more than it used to be by mail coaches. He was rather surprised to find the Lords of the Treasury were to have such extensive powers by the pro posed Bill. By the present law any merchant might sead out a letter by any ship, from any one of the ports, with out charge. He had been informed that not long since a steamer left Liverpool, carrying eight or ten letters from the Post-office, and many thousands from private indiv i duals. The boon given by the intended Bill would be conferred principally on the manufacturing and commercial interests of the country. Their business led them to writ e more than the agriculturists, and therefore they would be nefit to a greater extent by the propased measure. Il e thought that it was desirable that his Noble Friend a t the head of the Woods and Forests should state whether be, was in the pos sess i cn o f t h e i n f ormat i on h e (t h e D u ke el Richmond) had mentioned, and whether he would move for the p a p ers , so t h at t h e country m i g h t k now t h e ' exec" „ grounds on which this measure had been proposed. Lord DUNCANNON was afraid he could not give a very satisfactory answer to his Noble Friend, because un doubtedly the measure must be taken as an experiment. There were strongopinions on one side and the other. He himself was persuaded that if great exertions were made there would not be a very g rea t d e fi c i enc y. The 1 3 "' certainly gave great powers to the Lords of the Treasury, but then it was necessary that they should have those powers because there were certain regulations to be adopted regard to pensions and so o n . Th e Noble Duke had c oke(' if any calculation had been made with respect to the amount of letters that would be sent through the post so as to mak e up the deficit likely to occur. Upon that he (Lord Dun cannon) could state that the only calculation he was aware of was that of Mr. Rowland Hill. The average amount of letters at present was 6id. ; the average amount, ac cording to Mr. Rowland Hill's plan, if carried out to the fullest extent, would be lid. Consequently, if the number of letters at present :sent through the post was taken at eight millions—the amount required to make up the deficiency would be four hundred millions. But cer tainly great exertions on the part of the Post-office authorities would be necessary in order to carry the Act into operation, and regulations would be required to be adopted for the purpose of detecting frauds at present practised on the r evenue—particularly in regard to letters sent abroad, as well as with respect to those sent by stage coaches. When the Bill passed the greatest exertion would be made in carrying the Act into effect, so as to prevent fraud, and to give the greatest advantage to the public, while care was taken that the least possible loss oc curred to the revenue. He regretted that nothing bad been done when the Railroad Biils passed in regard to this subject, but the Government would do all in their power to prevent as little falling off in the revenue as possible. Arter come observations from Lurd A SHBURTON , which were totally inaudible in the gallery, The Duke of RICHMOND inquired ' what would be the increase of expenditure in the Post-office depart ment ? He believed Mr. Hill had estimated the increased know t 2 h O c r o,o t 1 0 1 e a G o o r y e 3 r o n o m , o e o n o t l. h a a - d y e r a e r c , but ei ve d h e a ny wished to report from the Postmaster- General as to what would be the increased expenditure in the Post-office establishments ? Lord DUNCANNON said that the loss to the revenue would be about 300,000/. Mr. R. Hill had not made any estimate as to the additional expense, but, of course, the extra Postmaster would have to be remunerated. The subject then dropped. CANADA. The Marquis of NORMANBY, upon the understand ing that the discussion was to take place on going in" ) Committee on Friday, moved the second reading of the Canada Government Bill. The Duke of WELLINGTON had no objectie e n to the adoption of the course proposed by the Noble Marquis, pro vided it was understood that the principle of he Bill was to be discussed en going into Committee. The Marquis of NORMANBY said Onat that was the understanding upon which he moved the second reading. After a few observations from the Earl of RADNOR , the Bill was read a second time, awl. ordered to be coat' milted cn Friday. CLERGY RESERVES. The Marquis of NORMANBY laid on the table re' turns relative to Clergy Reserves in Canada. TIMBER SHIPS. On the motion of Lord ELLENBOROUGHt t he Timber Ships Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. TITHE BILL. The INl , .rquis of LANSDOWNE moved the third read ing of the Tithe Amendment Bill. A discussion ensued on some particular clauses, of ilhi cl3 „ we were utterly unable to coll ect t h e purport , an d c an only Ellen state that Lord Ashburton, Lord Portman, Lord