The Sun. — London, England, 1845-05-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PA RM.- 4 131M ,-, T. HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 9. The SPEAs ER. took the Chair at the usual hour. NEW MEMBER. Mr. F. MactizNzi x took tha oaths and his seat on hic k re-eltetion for Peeble,hhT. The London and Brighton Railway Extension Bill was read second time. The Boddam Harbour Bill and Stoke-on-Trent Market Bill were read a third ti ..o and passed. The Guildford Junction Railway Bill was read a second RAILWAY COMMITTEE. Mr. GISBORNE moved, " That in all cases in which the Members of a Committee on a railway Bill, or group of Bills, shall be reduced to four, the proceedings on such Bill or 'group of Bills shall be suspended until the Committee of Se lection shall have discharged one of the said four Members from further attendance on the said Committee." In doing this he should merely state to the House, that from his own experience great inconvenience had been suffered by the diffi culty of coming to a decision in the Railway Committees which were now sitting. In the Committee of which he was a mem ber, there were projects submitted which involved the ex penditure of 8,000,000/., and he thought that was too great a sum for three gentlement to decide upon. He certainly saw great difficulty in adjusting the matter, but he bmieved that it would be advisable to return to the plan of the Election Committees. By a resolution of the House, passed on the 26th larch, 136. it was agreed that the Chairmen of Select Committees should have double votes, but as in a Committee of four only, this would not answer the purpose, he should propose that the Committee in such cases should be reduced to three. This eourse, be was aware, was a very exceptionable course ; but still it was, under the circumstances, be thought, the best that could be devised. He did think that the House ought to be careful how it inter fered with the influence of the Chairman, or with his votes. Let the House remember that the Chairmen of Committees were not appinted by those Committees, but by a Committee of this House, which feet alone showed the importance the House attached to that office. He had brought forward this question with no other object in view than those he had stated ; but he did not mean to say that it was the best remedy that could be proposed; but he had, at least, the satisfaction of knowing that he had called the attention of the House to it, and with these observations he begged to propose the motion of which he had given notice. Lord G. SOMERSET said he was not by any means pre pared to contend that it was nct a misfortune that the business of the House could not be reduced to a smaller amount ; but in the present state of the public business he was bound to admit that this question was one of a very serious character. He did not recollect whether the Hon. Member opposite was present when the subject of the Chairman's vote was discussed ; but amongst those who were present there appeared to be but one opinion, and that was that each Committee should be com posed of five Members, and also that the Chairman of each Committee should have a double vote when a necessity should arise for a caring vote. But what was the remedy proposed by the Hon. Member ? It WAS this, that when a Committee cbil happen to consist of only four Members, the proceedings of that Committee should stop until the Members had been reduced to three. Now he (Lord Granville Somerset) did think that such a course would be extremely inconvenient. He did not propose that three should be an absolute quorum. Now, if they took one member off, and the Committee should be reduced to two, that would be, in point of fact, giving the deci: ion to the Chairman. In cases where property to the amount of several millions was concerned, that would not certainly be right or judicious. How ever talented and honourable the Chairman of a Committee might be, what respect, be should like to know, would the House be inclined to pay to the decision of one gen tikinan ? Besides, it was asking a gentleman to take upon him self such a responsibility as they had no right to ask from him. It was exposing him to all sorts of mis representations, and if he were chairman of a committee, he should hesitate long before he ventured under such circum stances to come to a iecision. The House ought not to place any Hon. Gentleman in such a position, and he considered that it would be most unfortunate if the House were to adopt the pto po;•ition of the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. LA BOCCHERE agreed with the Noble Lord who had just sat down in opposing the motion of his Honour able Friend. At the same time, he thought that the House ought to he much obliged to his Honourable Friend for having brought forward the subject. The case to which his Ben. Friend had referred was not a mere speculative one. It actually occurred; and one of the most important of the Railway Committees had been reduced to four Mem bers. Now, what was the course which, under such cir eumstances, the House ought to pursue ? He thought that the Chairman ought to be deprived of the power of voting. He did not think that a Committee should be left in such a state as that it might be possible that a question involving mil lions of property should be decided by two members of the Com mittee, in opposition to the opinion of the Chairman. He was decidedly of opinion that the best course which they cools' adopt would be to allow the Chairman to have a double' vote on such occasions. MroWARBURTON thought that the very best plan pro posed was allowing the double vote to the chairman, but he shenlei support the tertium quid, as the determination of the Committee was not final. He did not think that the chair man shoit:d be deprived of that influence which he would pos sess en other eceasions. Mr. G. VERNON ventured to say, that in no other as sembly was there such a practice as that at present followed in Railway Committees. Mr. WARD thought that whichever of the propositions were carried, some means should be devised for rescuing the Chair man of a Committee from the position in which he would be placed in those circumstances, if liable to such accidents. Ile did not see why the Chairman should be prevented from ex pressing his opinion because two gentlemen expressed their opinions before. Sir G. GREY said he would propose an amendment to the sea t ion of hi■ Hon. Friend—that upon all questions before Railway Committees, on which there waifs difference of op slion. those questions should be decided by the majority of voices; bat where the members on the Committee were even, that ►he Chairman should have two voices, or a casting voice. Mr. F. SHAW seconded the amendment. He entirely con curred with the Hon. Gentleman opposite. Under all the cir cumstances, he believed that the best way to meet the difficulty of this question was to give a double vote to the Chairman. Any other mode would only lead to irregularity and confusion. Mr. GISBORNE conceived that tho-e fion. Gentlemen who had done him the honour to attend to his few remarks would not be surprised at his proposing to withdraw the mo tion which he had submitted, in deference to the strong opinion expressed on both sides of the House. Mr. BROTHERTON thought that the analogy proposed by the amendment was in accordance with the analogy of the House, and he should, therefore, support it. Mr. GRANVILLE VERNON said at the cuarter sessions it was the custom for the Chairman to be deprive'd of his casting vote when there were only three beside himself, but when the numbers were equal the Chairman retained his casting vote, and be thought this plan ought to be adopted in the Select Committees. Lord-EBRINGTON said, that in the Committee on the affa'rs df New Zealand, of which he was a member, this prin ciple had been adopted, and Lord Stanley had so arranged that there should always be a majority of one. Lord H. VANE said that as the opinion had been so strongly expressed on both sides of the House, he hoped the Noble Lard would accede to the request which bad baen so strongly expressed. After a few words from Lord G. SOMERSET, the motion was agreed to. On the motion of Mr. GREENE the Gravesend and Ro chester Railway Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. Mr. LANGSTON brought up the report of the Great Grimsby and Sheffi«ld Junction Railway Bill. Mr. FOX MAULE presented a petition from Perth in favour of the Edinburgh and Northern Railway Bill. The Great North of England Railway (Clarence and Hartle pool Junction) Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. country we meet with one great and striking anomaly. Thu religion of the great majority of the people of that eolith s has been for centuries treated by the State as a hostile relie pion.—( Opposition cheers.) Even yet that has not been entirely removed.—(Hear, hear.) Civil equality has been granted to the Roman Catholics of both countries. The penal laws have been removed, or are in process of removal, still there are traces remaining of that disposition on the part of the State to which I have referred, and those traces are nowhere more perceptible or more nox ious than when they interfere with the education of thepeople. Now, Sir, I have stated this difficulty—a difficulty which has been elCarly ascertained and admitted. It has been the subject of repeated inquiries—by Commission—by Committees of this House from a very early period since the passing of the Union, and, in later times, we have not only the advantage of the pre cise nature of the difficulty being ascertained, but e have the far greater advantage of considerable practical experience of the mode by which that difficulty may be satisfactorily encoun tered, and certainly overcome. I will shortly, Sir, refer to some of the inquiries which have been instituted on this subject. In the first place I will refer you—but, before I make reference to the report to which I shall shortly advert, I will simply make one observation, that the va.r:ous plans for educating the people of Ireland with the aid of Go vernment grants which have been made, have gene rally failed wherever there has been an interference with conscience in matters of religion.—( Hear.) I state th.s broadly as my opinion. Now, Sir, I would first advert to a very remarkable inquiry that was instituted by a Commission in 154 , 6. I will advert to the report of that Commission, made in the year 1812. It is important, with reference to the subject to which it is now my duty to call your attention, and I hope you will pardon me if I read a few ex tracts from that report, because this report appears to me to contain the germ of the sound principles on which the diffieulties of establishing a system of national education in Ireland are to be met, and, also, it contains the principles on which the measure which I am now about to pro pose to you is generally founded. The Commission was ap pointed in 1806, and its report presented in 1612. I beg the attention of the House to these remarkable words—" We have applied our efforts to the forming of a system which, whilst it will afford the opportunity of educa tion to every description of the lower classes of the people"—in passing, I may observe, that the prin ciples on which we stand are not limited to the lower classes, but are capable of extension to all classes in Ire land. The principle is that the proposed system is open to every description of the lower classes of the people, while at the same time, by keeping clear of all differences with respect to the particular religious tenets of any, it will induce the whole to receive its benefits as ono united body, and under one and the same system and, the same establishment. They then refer more pointedly to the subject in these term., " It is of essential importance that there should be new school* for the education of the lower classes in Ireland, and we ven ture to express our unanimous opinion, that no such plan however wise and unexceptionable in other respscts, can be carried into effectual execution in this country, unless it is explicitly avowed, and clearly understood as its leading prin ciple, that no attempt shall be made to influence or disturb the peculiar tenets of any sect or creed."—(Hear, hear ) I beg to call particular attention to this report, and I repeat it contains the only sound principle upon which education in Ireland may be dealt with ; and I again repeat, that it is the germ of the principle which has been lately carried into effect in Ireland, and is the principle upon which the mea sure I am about to introduce is founded. I beg to call the attention of the House to the signatures attached to this report. It is signed by the Primate of Ireland, the Protestant Primate of that day. the Archbishop of Cashel, the Protestant Archbishop of Cashel, the Bishop of Killaia, Dr. Ebring!on, and Mr. Leslie Forster. More unexceptionable authorities there could not be. I now beg leave to call the attention of the House to the Commission of 1826. The Members who composed it were Mr. Frankland Lewis, the late Baron Fore ter, Mr. Blake, Mr. Glassford, and Mr. Grant. They r port, "that schools should be established for the purpose of giving to the children of all religious persuasions such useful instruc- Sir R. PEEL moved that the House at its rising should ad journ to Thursday the ]sth of May.—(Cries of tt Friday, Friday.") He had given notice of his intention to move the adjournment of the House to Thursday, and he felt bound to adhere to his original notice. The motion was agreed to, without discussion. The O'CONOR DON asked for leave of absence for three weeks for Colonel White, which was granted. MR. WALLACE'S PETITION. e:neva:l on the part of the responsible ad, leer of thc Crown, shall depend upon the cause which shall be shown. I would say that. it would be well that the princiial should reside within the walls of the college ; but it is nut intended to provide accommodation for either the pro fessors or students ; in this respect following the example of the universities in Scotland. But, however, there shall be im mediate control and supervisien exercised over the students of the college indirectly, and no doubt perfectly satisfactory to the parents and guardians who entrust the students to the care of the college, No provision is made fur the residence of the professors or students within the walls of the col lege. Instruction will be given by lecturers, and there will be daily examinations; for lectures, without con- Cnual and searching examination, may be made per fecily fruitless, and attended with no benefits. I have already stated that, consistently wilh the principle upon which this measure is based, there will be in none of these colleges endowments for professors of theology; it is not reposed to allow anything for that purpose. Religion, however, is not to be entirely disregarded. It is our intention to propose that every facility be given for endowment by private benefaction of professors of theology, subject to the visitorial power of the Crown. I think it would be monstrous if any other course should he , aken.---e Hear.) Now, Sir, it is clear that in the colleges in Cot k and in Galway the Roman Catholic students will be a majority, but I do hope that the Protestant youth of the neigh bourhood will attend those colleges and share in the advan tages of education in the arts and sciences which can there be procured. But suppose wealthy Protestant parents should he anxious to secure for their children attend:no. those col leges, that some provision should be made for the education' of those children in the doctrines of the religion held by their forefathers, by means of private benefactions and endowments for securing them religious instruction in the colleges of Cork and Galway, it would be hard beyond measure if full effect were not given to these beneficent intentions, and if every facility were not afforded for carrying them into effect. We intend that th's Bill should afford all these fa cilities. Of course there will be no compulsory at tendance on these theological instructions, and the professorships will only be instituted in case the: e should be a sufficient number of students, and a provision made by benefaction and endowment. The principle equally applies to the Roman Catholics. I suppose and hope that many Roman Catholic youths will attend the college of Belfast. That college will be mainly a Presbyterian college, but it would be hard be yond measure if the parents of Roman Catholics should not have every facility afforded them for erecting endowments for the religious instruction of their children in that college. The attendance on these theological instructions will, as I said be fore, not be compulsory. The fundamental principle of this measure—that upon which I ask for it the sanction of this House—is the avoidance of all interference, positive or negative, with the religious scruples of the people. That is the principle for which I contend—that is the principle from which I anticipate the success of the measure.—( Hear.) I have said that there were certain circumstances relating to Belfast to which I would allude. Now, the House will bear in mind, that the acade mical institution of Belfast has received the aid of a Petite mentary grant of 2,0 eq. a year. This for some years past has been voted in the annual estimates. That institution was originally founded on the principle for which I contend as clearly necessary for the foundation of academical institu tions in Ireland. That institution is mainly attended by the Presbyterians of the north of Ireland, and by the Presbyte rian youth training for the university in that part of the country. There are in that institution now four endowed ministers, as professors of Divinity, nominated, not by the governing body of the academical institution, but by the General Assembly of Ulster, in connexion with that circuit. It would be hard to deprive that body of the benefits they have now received for a period apprpaching, I think, to twenty years. It is nut ti e intention of the Government to deprive the General Assembly of Ulster of the benefits they have hitherto enjoyed. It would form no part of this plan—it would be in consistent with the principles of this Bill to introduce anything into the particular character of theological endowments, but in making this statement it is right that I should inform the House that it is the intention of the Government, in the annual votes, to propose the continuance of the endowment of the four ministers connected with the Presbyterian Church in the north of Ireland—to continue it not only in the present year, taut they contemplate its continuance in the future estimates of future years. Now, I cannot speak confidently, but I have every reason to believe if this measure should be sanctioned by Parliament, that facility will be given by the academical mana gers of the academical institutien of Belfast, to transfer their building and premises, and even their library, on easy terms. to the Government. for the purpose of founding a college in the north of Ireland. Of cours if that arrangement should tae place, s a timethereie t tw , ciul d is a tentsnn expenditure teri materially to dimin ish which a t r h a quite eex pe expense; ure the House would sanction. The professors now serving in that institution have engagements with the college that they shall tecsive the salary voted by Parliament for their live s,unless hey shall be removed on account of misconduct. That is a bai gain with that institution. I think it would be highly in eenver.ient, if this institution should be transferred, to limit the choice of the Crown to these particular professors, because some of them might be taken and some of them it might be desirable not to re-appoint, but in case any one of those gen tlemen now occupying a situation for life, and not being re appointed, I think a provision should be made for ample and uli compensation. Now, Sir, as relates to the question of colleges, I am not aware that I have failed to state anything eelcula'ed to make tire plan of the Government intelligible to the House. But I should leave my statement in a very imperfect condition if I did not, before I sat down, glance at other great and pecuniary interests. The Bill which I shall ask leave to introduce does no more than propose to found colleges in Ireland. But the great question immediately pre sents itself, will these throe colleges be established as one uni versity, or, following the example of Scotland, shall the Crown, in the exercise of its preiogative, endow each of these colleges with the faculty of granting degrees in arts, science; and medicine ? It is not necessary, nor even expedient, in the present Bill, or at the present time, to come to a definite ar rangement on that point. But I will not, for a moment, be so far deficient in candour as not to state tothe House what my own judgment is on the matter. I think that the advantages in favour of a central university preponderate.—( Hear, hear.) I think that a central university would be a common arena where the youth of Ireland may contest, in honest and honour able rivalry, for the advantages and emoluments of superior in dustry and superior attainments. The national character of inch an institution can only be exalted by such rivalry, and if you had the parts of universities scattered throughout Ireland :hey would not be this great national institution which I am anxious they should be. I think, also, that a great moral effect is tion as they might severally be capable or desirous of receiving without having any grounds to apprehend any interference with their respective religious tenets." And then they give their recommendation, " that religious instruction should be given to Protestants and Roman Catholics, Rot jointly, but sepa rately." I will now shortly call the attention of the House to the report of a Committee of this House in 1828. They say that they consulted and referred to the reports of the two commissions, from which I have already read extracts, namely, the commissions of 1812 and 1926. I have the report of that Committee here, and the several resolutions to which they came ; but I will not detain the Rouse by reading them et length, but will content myself with giving a summary of their report in the words of a letter addressed by my Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), ie 1833, to the Duke of Leinster, at the period the National Board was formed. My Noble Friend gives a summary of their report in these terms:—" In 5928, a Committee of the House, to which was referred the various reports of the Corn missioners of Education, recommended a system to be adopted which should afford, if possible, a combined literary, and se parate religious education, and it should be so far adapted to the views of the religious persuasions which prevailed in Ire land as to render it, in truth, a system of na tional education for the poorer classes of the community. In this undertaking, much must depend en the characters of the individuals who compose the Board ; and, whilst the inte rests of religion must not be overlooked, care mu-t be taken not to interfere with particular and peculiar tenets of Christianity." This matter was referred to a Committee of the Howe in 1830, and that Committee reported that they had received much evidence of impor'ance on the subject of the education of e poor. The Committee said they could but hope that no further time would be lost in giving the public the benefit of the recom mendation of the Committees of 1812 and 1825, or the practical recommendations of the Committees of 1828. In the following year, 1931, the present system of Rational education for the poorer classes was established in Ireland. The principle upon which the report of this Coramittee was founded, and upon which that scheme of education rests, is summed up in the re port which I have just received, and which I am about to lay upon the table of this House. It is the report, in the present year, of the Board of Commissioners of National Education Ireland. It is stated with brevity but with perfect accuracy and remarkable clearness " The principle of this Board is and has been from the beginning, that the national schools shall be open alike to Christians of all denominations ; and that no child shall be required to be present at any reli gious instruction in these schools, if the parent; and guar dians disapproved of it ; and as opportunity is afforded to all children to receive separate, and, at particular periods, such instruction as the parents and guardians provide for them." I have now stated to the House the grounds upon which, I say, that we are furnished with sufficient practical knowledge and experience to legislate upon the subject. The difficulties have been ascertained, and the mode in which they are to be met hes been enunciated by high authorities. Possessing this know ledge and this experience, we proceed to the application of the theory. While it was attempted to educate the people of Ireland by setting aside those principles, and to connect that education with an attempt to proselytise and teach exclusive religious principles, we failed, although large sums of money were annually voted. These sums, I repeat, were voted in vain.—( Hear ) The great body of the people of Ireland did not partake of this exclusive education. One society, that for promoting English Protestant schools in Ireland, was established. And in 1935, the last year in which the Parliamentary grant was made, 21,000/. was voted, and yet, in 1831, the total num ber of children attending these schools was 2,500. Another society was established which carried its operations into Ire land—the society for discountenancing vice. Up to the year 1825, there was an annual vote of the House in favour of this society, and the last year the grant was 7,500/. In 1824, the number of schools was 226, and the number of children, 12,769, of which 7,309 were Protestants, and only 4,969 Roman Catholics. Now, the first and only experiment which had been made on the opposite principle, and which had been laid before the Primate of Ireland, was in the year 1812, and that, I again repeat, was the first and only experiment which had been made. Let me call the attention of the Howe to the re markable results of that experiment. I shall not go back beyond the year 18:39, but in that year I 'find that there were 1581 schools in Ireland, and the number of children was 205,000. I shall pass to the end of the year 1814, when I find that there were no less than 3,153 schools, and the number of children attending them amounted to 395,000; thus the House will see that on this new and improved principle nearly 400,090 children are annually educated in Ireland. Sow, Sir, it has been said by many persons that this education is almost wholly confined to the humbler classes, and to obviate this disadvan tage, in the proposal I am about to make' I i n ' en d to extend that education to the higher classes, and so to remove the ob jection which has been so frequently urged. Owing to the liberal policy pursued by the French Government, I have the satisfaction of stating to the House that the National Assembly have determined to immediately establish schools on cx eels . the same principle with the proposed system of National Edu cation in Ireland. Now, Sir, I have hitherto spoken only of Ireland ; but I should present but a very imperfect view of the question in general, if I should confine your attention exclu sively to that country. For a very long peri o d th ere prevailed a very general impression that the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, as immediately connected with the Established Church of the country, should not be opened to all classes of her Majesty's subjects ; but that exclusive princi. ple was not found to have the effect intended. But in these difficulties it was thought expedient, and the Go vernment concurred in that, that there should be established in this metropolis a third University, and in that University no test is required of teacher or student.--( Hear, hear.) No religious test either is necessary, in fact there is perfect free dom.— ( Hear, hear. ) All the Universities were combined in perfect harmony with the University of London, and I have given my consent to such a University being established in Carlow.—(Hear, hear.) Well, to pass from England, and to advert to Scotland ; amid all the religious squabbles that have taken place, there no test was required. Now, Sir, I have stated to the House what appears to me the sound principle that cught to be adopted in the matter, and 1 have demonstrated what has been their value and what has been their results. And really I do say that, considering the experience we have had of the state of the theoretical sciences, and of society, and of the different relierious persecutions in Ireland, her Majesty's Government should have no hesitation in recommending the establishment and endowment of provincial colleges in Ireland upon the principles I have stated.—( Hear, hear.) I have now endeavoured to sketch the outline of the plan, but I have said nothing of the locality of each university, or of the system of education to be adopted in the colleges. It would naturally occur to the mind of any gentleman conversant with the state of Ireland, that one of the three universities should be , sta blished in the south of Ireland, but the particular place we have not fixed ova. Cork has been spoken of as an eligible place for the south.--( Hear, hear.) There is an immense population in that city, and some very important schools exist there at present—( Hear, hear) —to which there is great facility of access, and it is surrounded by a dense population ; arid a very strong feeling has already been expressed by the people of that city in favour of extended education.—( Hear, hear.) On these grounds, then, I would say, that Cork is naturally the locality that would be selected for the university for the south. —( Hear, hear.) Then it is not intended to overlook the west of Ireland, Rod therefore either Limerick or Galway would be selected as the most convenient locality I,r the west. —( Hear, hear.) And, then, with respect to the north, it is a question whether would Belfast or Derry be the roost con venient locality for the university for the north.—( Hear.) I think that taking into account all the circumstances con nected with Belfast, that city affords the best facilities for the northern loeality.—(Hear, hear.) New, of course, we are not to be understood as pledging ourselves as to what would be the precise amount of the expense that would attend the coos. pletion of a Proposition of this sort. But I should say that for the purposes of building, and fitting up, about39,oool.fur each university would be sufficient, or about 10 9 0001. for buildin c g e the prin c t i h p r a e l s e : and and spresidest,aerdual expenses of principal to the z et e hn s oe wt h Governmentc ee.alarech ~ 6,0001.,t5e would recomm t e l s i s e d i fo o r co th o e ol a . annual endowment build ing,endo Cries of or, including s would be about 118,0001.—( Each college will have ten or twelve professors, wito e l ,, A w7il r l . b " e ) both' at allowed 3001. a-year each ; and especially, Belfast, there will be medical schools, to which I attach 4 t " greatest importance; and when I say twelve professors, I he essors, in clude the professors in anatomy, surgery, and pharmacy. It is our intention, considering that the endowm en t i s to be made by the Crown, to propose that the pre. fessors in all the three colleges shall be nominated by th e Crown ; that the Crown shall have not only the power of :mini. nating, but tht power of removing upon cause shown. I have always said that while we seek to exclude any undue inter ference with religious opinions, security must be taken that the election of lecturers shall not be thug peculiarly distin guished. The circumstances are sidttl that the p4; - ,:e7 of . . .. certain of being produced throughout the youth of Ireland, by the competition to which I have referred. The youth of Ire land, meeting from their various establishments at a central point, where they will contend fur honours, to be obtained by great merit and superior attainments, without any reference ti. creed arid party distinctions, will produce a most beneficial trect •:n their common intercourse in future life, wherever they meet.—(Hear, hear.) It is impossible for any Gentle man in this House, who has been in one of our own universi ties, not to remember, with sentiments of esteem and respect, those with whim we contended, and whose superiority to our selves we may have reason to recollect. I do not think you will secure those valuable effects in any other way with certainty, except by coming together at one point. I admit that it ha. disadvantages also, because there is great difficulty, and I be lieve it is inherent in the system, in obtaining sufficient number of examiners who are accustomed to habits of teaching and' giving lectures. This brings me to the question—if you are to have a separate university, where should it be?—(. Hear, hear.) I am bound to s ay that it y o u come to the conclusion that there shall be a central university, that it should be in the metropolis of Ireland. This at once presents a question of great difficulty which lam resolved not to blink—( Hear, hear.) lam of opi nion that it is neither wise nor just to allow any interference with Trinity College as it at present exists.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side.) It is strictly of Protestant forma tion. It was founded by Queen Elizabeth avowedly for Pro testant purposes. These purposes have been clearly mani fested from time to time, and it is from that seminary the Established Church draws its priesthood. We have encoun tered much obloquy and made many painful sacrifices, if not of friendship, at least of the confidence of many ot our 'supporters, by mamfesting a desire for the education ot the Roman Catholic priesthood. In proposing a grant to May nooth to-night, I announce the intention of the Government to continue the annual sum, whereby the Presbyterians of the north will have an opportunity of educating their priesthood. I find, I repeat, Trinity College endowed by a Protestant Sove reign,: avowedly for the purpose of providing ministers for the established religion in Ireland; and I cannot, under such cir cumstances, think it right that that property should be taken away or disturbed. It is right that I should inform the House that Trinity College is so interwoven arid blended by long use and by lung possession with Dub lin University, that even if it were expedient to make a severance, it would be found difficult, if not dangerous, to do so. And, be it remembered, neither that college nor the Dublin University were exclusiveiy established. In 1793, tile memorable year when the elective franchise was given to the Roman Catholics—when the Relief Act was passed by the Irish Parliament, a very singular arrangement took place in reference to Dublin University. I will read for the House a clause of an Act which was passed at that time for the relief of Roman Ca thelics. After recounting the preamble, the clause went on tr. say, " and be it enacted that Irons and after the first day of June, 1793, it may not be nesessary for any person taking de. grees usually conferred by said university, to make or subscribe any declarayion, or take any oath, save the oath of al legiance." Letters patent were issued by the Sovereign, cohfirming and extending these privileges to Roman Catho. lies. Thus Roman Catholics entering Dublin university could have no scruples in entering those colleges. They might take degrees in the university, and partake of all its ad vantages—(lronical cries of " Hear, hear," from Mr. Shiel) —and when I say all the advantages I except certain emolu mentary advantages which this university affords. Now, I have to call the attention of the House to a matter of the highest importance, I mean the evidence given by Mr. O'Con • neil before a Committee of their Lordships' House on this very point, namely, whether it would be desirable that the Queen's College, which had at first been instituted and intended solely fir Protestants, should be opened to Roman Catholics.—(The Right. Hon. Gentleman then referred to the evidence given by Mr. O'Connell before a Committee of the House of Lords, the put port of the answers given by the Honourable Member for Cork being, that as Trinity College was intended only for the education of Protestants by its founders, it would be unfair, if not unjust, to admit Ro• man Catholics to its privileges. I have not a ward more to add here.—(Cheers. ) This evidence was given before a Committee of the House of Loads, and it appears to me con clusive on this subject. Now, I must say, that the intention to force on the Protestants of Ireland the adinissi , n of Raman Catholics into the Queen's College, is destructive of their rights of conscience ; it is imagined by them a violation of the Constitution—a violation which would spread such an alarm throughout the whole body as would render any measure pro posed by Government entirely impracticable ; and, therefore. it is that the Government du not propose to bring forward any proposition to this effect. The subject was brought before the Irish Parlirment in 1797, and certain resolutions were adopted, among them was one which I will read to the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman read the resolution to the House, which was to the effect that the adoption of a second uni versity in I• eland was calculated to do the greatest good in that country. That question did not, however, arise in the pre -eta Bill, its only object being to establish three provincial colleges, and, looking practically to the question, I am disposed to recommend the measure to the Hoose, as least open to objection, and practical in execution.—(Hear.) And now let me say a few words in reference to the Hon. Member fur Waterford.—( Hear, hear.) Ido say I would in deed but ill discharge my duty if I were not to bear to him the h,mble need of tiny praise for the part he has taken in re ference to this question.—(lle4r, hear. ) That lion. Member has persevered in his advocacy of an extended system of educa tion in Ireland, in good report and in evil aeport—( Hear, heart)—and under circumstances of having against him at one time an adverse Government; yet lie did his utmost to give the measure effect, without permitting the interference of any. ill-feeling towards a Government that did not possess his con fidence.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, a course more high-minded and honourable than that pursued by the Hon. 'Member for hear)' , :la a t tt i e i e r r f fm o o r re d dri, ern.l..l nX. have been followed by any man — ( Hear , —and ti w ( h ih at ine e a v err e : r ht n ei l at a r y i.l b s 7 fate of this measure, whether it be ti rejected or n av o trt l n i tdi s ee h da a ll l y l never forget tilet s. )arcre je l p o ec r ,tsl t 1 y i a e nodf portion has establishing i think, h in u k e , also, to t h that i a i t o s n o . me te a m t attention i f o o n r is due t o t h e 0 • inion of the Honourable Member, ad e r :l fh l u e il g mly e s s elft i o n ( Hear, hear.) Before I sit down h Lsh i al a read letter t to he t o o p r i d ni3n io . of r to i th re t e l l i a e r : i u n — b e: n the lien. Member, expressed by Mr. DUN COM BE said he would beg leave to move that the petition he presented from Robert Wallace, Esq., last night be printed, with the votes.—( Laughter. ) Mr. FOX NI A ULE wished to know if the Hon. Member for Finsbury was really serious in pressing this, with a view to found a motion upon it ?—( Langhter. ) Mr. DUNCOM BE said it really was his intention to found a motion upon the petition, but he would promise that it would not be quite so long as the petition itself.—( Hear, and laughter.) His motion would be to this effect, that the petition be referred to a Se!ect Committee, who should inquire and report to this House upon the prater of the petition, which was to the effect that the House should inquire how far it was expedient to discontinue the Railway Department of the Board of Trade.—( Laughter.) if the !louse should agree to the printing of the petitio n , th en he would move the resolution' he had read.--( Hear.) But when he received the petition he wrote to Mr. Wallace, to say he did not think the House would do so--(Laughter)—but Mr. Wallace did not agree with him—(Laughter)—and he appeared to know those matters better than he did.—( Laughter.) However, as be ( Mr. Duncoitbe) believed that petitions of this sort were not usually printed with the votes, he would withdraw it. Mr. Sergeant MURPHY, at the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exclaequer, withdrew the motion of which he had given notice, and which was, that the petition of the churchwardens of the town and parish of \Vokin,ham, in the counties of Berks and Wilts, be printed. IRISH BANKS BILL. _ Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet opposite when it was his intention to proceed with the measure on Banking in Ireland? Sir ROBERT PEEL sail. that the Bill had been brott:Jit in and ordered to be printed. As far as the Treasury business was concerned, he was anxious to proceed with it aasenn as possible. H e cou ld no t s t a t e w ith accurac y the pre cise day, • but he eould say that it would be an early day. The Right H on . Gentleman then took the opportunity of saying that as he was prepared to take es ti ma t es on F r iday n i g ht next he would, on night, stat e w h a t part i cu l ar est i ma t es it was his intention t o ta k e. PAROCHIAL SETTLEMENT RILL: Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD asked when it was in. tended to proceed with the Parochial Settlement Bill? Sir JAMES GRAHAM replied that it was not his inten tion to proceed with the Parlll Settlement Bill, which stood upon the orders of the day for that L evening, until after the resolution to be moved by the Noblellio.rd the Member fur would, th therefore, London should have been disposed of. 9th of June. postpone the second reading of that Bill till As he was about to trespass. upon the indulgence House somewhat out of order, in bringing forward enea an nf the portant motion, be would, if the House chose, at down, the public petitions had been presented.—(N o , no. Go "t ) ll ACADEMICAL INSTITUI lONS (IRELAND).on. Sir. J. GRAHAM, who had resumed his seat for ain gam, then rose, and addressed the Houseas follows:—Sir, collecting that it is the disposition of the House that I should at once proceed, I will now address you, though net at very great length, on the subject of the motion which stands in ray name on the books of the House, and in so doing it is not any intention to trespass long upon the attention of the House. I shall not dilate either upon the importance or upon the difficulty of the subject which I am about to bring under your notice, not that I am disposed to underrate either its importance or its difficulty; neither will the House under rate its importance when I state that the object of the motion is the improvement of the social condition of the people of Ireland; nor will they underrate its difficulty when I state that the means suggested by her Majesty's Government for the improvement of that social condition, consist in diffus ing the benefits of education among the middle and higher classes in Ireland. Sir, in dealing with this subject of edu cation, it cannot be concealed, .n fact experience has demonstrated that religious differenc es eonstitute the great difficulty in the way of the establishment of any genet al system of education. In Ireland certainly this difficulty is not of the aruns f e.baracter as that which we have had to deal with Iti'• England.-;-(llftr, hear.) We have not in they country tha---lasne different modifications of religious opinions which we have in England. Still in that THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 1845. peth. The flight lion. Baronet then pros ceded to real the (titre's', which was to the effect that he (`lr. Wyse) trusted he had placed befere his Lordship the true character and bearing of this case, and the necessity of establishing a series of pro vincial calleges in Ireland, and at the conclusion "lie Mon. Member said that. t• for his part, se ns ibl e a s he was how very little attentioretie opinion was entitled to, still he would say, that this would be the greatest boon that could be left behind by any Government "—( Hear, hear. ) 'This is the Ho nourable Member's opinion on this important ques tion, and I fully agree with him. I am decidedly of opinion that if the House should give its sanction to this proposition, it will be a measure that wil: be most favourable to Ireland, in a moral and social point of view, upon the condition of the people of that c ountry.—( Hear. ) It will have the effect of increasing order, peace, and virtue in Ireland, which should be the great *Tete of all civil govern ments.—( Hear, hear.) I was taunted with my want of success in proposing a measure of this sort on a former occasion. I am aware of my inability, as an advocate, to deal with a question of such importance. I call upon the House to give this measure their general support and co-operation, without reference to religious or political distinctions that may exist in Ireland. I have endeavoured to state both fully and fa rly the na ure of the measure. I have nit left out any particle of the case. I have stated all the difficulties which exist w its: a -trict o nse of justice and propriety. I have nothing more to say than to thank the House for the patience with which it has attended to me, and to move for leave to bring in a 13:11 to otsoble her Majesty to endow colleges for the advancement of education in Ireland. The motion being put, Mr. WYSE said that he was aware that it would be im proper to press upon the attention of the House any observa iens upon the object of her Majesty's Government, but, as he was for a long time connected with the discussion cf this ques tion, he might be permitted to make a few observations upon the various parts of the measure which had been submitted to them. He thought it was unwise and dangerous to the social condition of this country to grant so much money for the edu cation of the lower classes without n eking equal provissons fur the education of the middle and higl er castes of the commu nity. 'the improvement of the }resent system over the old was quite manifest, and it was ro little satisfaction to know that, not only were there a large number of children educated in these national schools, but the education given to them was infinitely superior to that which the country had previously given to them. Hitherto, the chief obstacle in the way of ex tending this system of education was the religious differences which existed in Irelend, but he was rejoiced to say that these obstacles were gradually melting away. —( Hear, hear.) He considered that, along with elementary schools, there ought to be intermediate sells) As bet ween them and the colleges, somewhat analogous to the grammar schools in this country. Such schools, it' established, would be best calculated to supply ails pupils the proposed universities or colleges. The Go vernment had given its assent to 32 model schools for Ireland. arid it would rest with the Board of Education to give to them proper efficiency, in carrying out the object for which they were instituted. After alluding to the great necessity of care being taken, in the educational institutions about to be esta blished, that Le religious intolerance, or religious sectarianism, should be allowed to interfere with the primary ends for which they were instituted, the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to show 'he importance of giving to these schools an industrial ch sateen 'Tilty might to be put in possession of a more superior character in this respect, than any they now had. There ought to be an organisation in each of the col 'egos, dependant upon the particular localities in which they were established, and in each of them there should be be a mining department for training the youth in a knowledge If the important branches connected with the mineral kingdom, and through which mini-g and geological explorations could be undertaken throughout Ireland. There ought also to be an in dustrial museum established in Dublin, in which there could be collected every kind of specimen, whether mineral or otherwise, for the information of the student, anti under whose superin tendence those geological exp ditions could be conducted. By tl,e.e means the young men could be trained in civil engineering, end be made to acquire habits of industry, energy, and perse verance, and be made conversant nit's, the most useful and im portant branches of practical science. Through these arrange ments a substantial middle c'ass might be formed in that country, and a gre a t amount of general good diffused. In ad dition to a central mu s eum in Dublin, large museums ought also to be established in other parts of the country, not only for the use of the students of the colleges, but accessible to the inhabitants, in connexion with which there might he carefully selected libraries. For these purposes her Majesty's Government should give mainlin e s and afford ti.e nucleus of each establishment, leaving their extens:on and improvement to the liberality of the public. He would not go into the payment of professors, though he considered, as those colleges were to be establish ments for the public at large, the system of lodging and hoarding shon'd not be allowed to become a system of profit end abuse on the part of the heads of those establishments. No observe' ion had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet re pecting what remedies he intended to be applied against those ello might engage in theological discussion, whether they acre to be paced in the hands of the superiors of the col leges, or to proceed direct from the Government itself. Without some efficient arrangement of this sort, lie was satis fied the colleges would dwindle into mere places of popular lecturing, and the Government be under the necessity of suppressing them altogether, or else entirely remodelling them. Ile thought that, ultimately, a greater number of col leges ought to be established in the country than the three proposed at Belfast, Cork, and Galway, though he considered that number would suffice for the present. lie was of opinion that Galway, Cork, and Belfast, were judiciously selected as the sites of the three Colleges proposed, but in ad ditien he considered there should be one established at Dublin. He did not mean that it should be established in opposition to the University of Dublin, but as an industrial seminary for the accommodation of that part of the country. He a. a Roman Catholic, was as pleased at seeing institutions endowed for the education of Protestants or Presbyterians, as he was at the support given for the College of Maynooth. His only regret was, that the sums to be applied for these purposes was not large enough. With regard to the constitution of these semi naries, he should like to see an aggregation of them, something like to the University of London, which was made up of a num -I.er of colleges, and it might be called the University of Ireland. He was of opinion that sooner or later such a course would have to be adopted. With regard to any competition that might be supposes! to arise between this University of Irelind and the Unisersity of Dublin, he did not apprehend much fear. Such competition he considered would not be very successful. The University of Dublin was an old and much respected semi nary of learning, and had a prestige arid a name to suppert it, which a new institution could not hope to have. By the Act of 1793, to which the, Right Hon. Baronet had referred, the principle had been fully laid down that Trinity College in Dribble should be opened to both Roman Catho tee and Protestants. The opening of the Dublin University 'o all these parties would only be extending the Act of 1793. At present the University of Dublin was under the govern ment of its fellows, and he saw no reason why this principle of government should not he extended, so that in the ag eregation of colleges throughout Ireland their members should hive the power of management. The carrying out of the proposed principle need give no alarm to Protestants, Presbyterians, or 1101118,(1 Catholics, for it would only be carrying out the intention orate foundation of Elizabeth,which was brought fermi:m(las an act of justice to the Roman Catholics, fur the educational institutions they had been deprived of at the period of the Reformation. Trinity College was by no means one of an exclusively ecclesiastical character, but it was said May nooth was exclusively confined to Catholics, and, therefore, it was urged that the Dublin University ought to be exclusively confined to Protestants. His answer, however, to this was, that the Dublin University eras not solely an ecclesiastical foundation, but it was an ecclesiastical and lay foundation. In his opinion. therefere, the college ought to be thrown open alike to Catholics as well as Protestants. Now, he would let the Dublin University have the control of all those colleges, and he thought the present state of the university spas favourable to the adopti o n o f su c h was gli'veightihYat intellectual t one an d temper to their calculated to d raw out t h e energies of he p a plan. 'The measure o f the Government, if properly carried e. le, and minds which had been so long wanted. In future years, Go vernment might depend upon it, their present policy would enable the Irish people to contribute to the wealth and in fluence of this country. and there could be no doubt this mea. sure would leave grateful recollections in the minds, if not of the present race, at least of those who should come after them. Also ROSS expressed his great gratification at the state ment of the Right lion. Baronet, and confessed that it would '4o far to remove the differences which had for some time existed in the College of Belfast. The proposition, he was sure, could give universal satisfaction to the people of Ireland. Mr. BELLEW agreed with the Hon. Member fur Waterford that it was extremely desirable that a second university should be established in connexion with Trinity College, for the ad mission of persons of all religious denominations, without in terfering with the rights of that institution. With respect to the principle of endowing colleges in the manner proposed by she Gov er nment, he begged t o craw the attention of the House to the opinion of t he Catholi c clergy on this subject. Ile Catholic !clergy to a ma n were o pposed to any State en lowment as far as they themselves were concerned, but nothing would be more acceptable to theist than endswments for the education of the people. Mr. T. 13. ROCHE was glad the Government had brought this meerure forward, because it weuld act as a safe guard against revolutionary outbreaks, tie wat a repealer, but nevertheless as much opposed to the undue invasion of democracy as he was to the undue domination of an aristoseraey. It slit not strike his mind that this grant of 18,0001. a year, and 100,001)1. was sufficiently comprehensive. It did not go half ar enough. It was not systematic, because there was no con necting link between the rational system and this collegiate education. He thought that there should either be a second university in Dublin:, or they should throw open the one which already existed. It was proposed to establish 32 model schools, but the funds for them were to be taken out of the funds ap• propriated for the national system of educations. 'this was raking away the funds which were appropriated for the educa tion of the poorer classe s , i n or der to give an elementary edu• cation to the middle c l asses . B u t he was ready to acknowledge that the measure, so f ar as it wen t, hope for Ireland.--( H ear .) Sir It. INGLIS said, that though the was one of promise and of principle' involved in the present measure was one of universal and paramount Importance, he was desirous of hearing the Members irons Ireland express their opinions urn it before he delivered his esen. The principle of the measure seas one, however, not et Irish interests, but of imperial and national importance. Did he rightly understand his Right Hon Friend to say, that there was to be no distinct religious instruction in the in-ti tutions which in the name of her Majesty he now proposed to the House ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Those cheers ac knowledged the accuracy of his impression. There was then to be no religious instruction in those colleges. Ile would ask the Right lion. Gentleman opposite, who was, perhaps, better acquainted with the history of education than any elember of that House—(Mr. Wyse)—whether he could point out a single instance in the history of England, in whirls a national Institution connected with education had been endowed by the State, except upon the principle of an Es tablished Church, wheth er t h at were the Church of Rom e or the Church of Scotland, or the Established Episcopacy of this country ? There was no instance of well an institution which was riot !sued on religion, which was the great and important interest of this life, because it was the promise of their eternal happiness in the next. Never till this 9th of May, 1'345, had en attempt been made to establish such an institution. He knew that there were two such instances in this country, but he might call them . amateur institutions, established according to the peculiar taste of cert. in individuals. One of those was the London University, which he heard, indeed, called by an ether name.— ( A laugh.) But those weirs n ot instances in point. Little did he b e li eve , twenty yea rs ago, that a m e asure like the present would emanate f rom t h e present Government , or that the principle it i nvo l ve d wou ld receive their sanction. He knew that his Right Hon. Friend would not sanction such a principle in his Gvi'n Tamil and if so, he di d not see wh y he should adopt it for those who were equallV Under hie controul, and for whom he (Sir R. Inglis) hel d that he was equally responsible.—( H ear , hear. ) He did not e ven know if moral philos o phy was to be taught in those in stitutions which were to be es t a bli s hed in Ireland; but wh a t y, was the value of moral philosophy if not based on:religion ? A more gigantic scheme of Godless education was never pro pined in any country. And was it not the boast, or, at all events, 'the .disinnctiee merit claimed for the: measure by hi. Right Hon Friend, that 'ellme institutions Were to be without toe word of God? He would not go into the details of the measure, because when the principle of the measure erns so bad, the d stalls be.sarne. coraparatively unimp ortant ; but from the plaudits with which certain parts of his R i g ht lion. Friend 's speech were received by Host. Gentlemen opposite, he thoeght that his Right Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Dubli❑ had reason to apprehend that it would shake the foun dations of that Protestant University. When the Right Hon. Gentleman referred to the opinions of Mr, O'Connell, he heard the Right Hon. Gentleman the Alt,niber for Dungar von (Mr. SiLiel) say, in an audible whisper, that this was long ago, and though he admitted that opinions might and ought to change—( Hear)--yet an opinion like that qaoted by his Right Hon. Friend, which, indeed, was more a promise that he would use no influence to disturb that insti tution, than an opinion—ought not to be allowed. —( Hear. ) They had always deprecated those loose principles of educa tion. He entirely differed from the measure of the Govern ment—he never could consent to make himself a party to mea sures of such a character. He believed the present measure to be founded on an absolute disregard of tho,e principles which they had hitherto cherished. He believed the measure to be subversive of the best interests of Christianity. Never till now had they been call , td upon to provide a system of education not only without religion, but throwing religion entirely over board. He did not, however, feel himself called upon to divide the House on the present occasion ; but he would, on a subsequent stage, raise his voice, if it were to be a solitary one, against a Bill, the very foundation and principles of which he believed to be defective. Mr. SHEIL then rose and said—Sir, the Hon. Baronet who has just sat down called it " a gigantic scheme of God less education," a phrase which certainly has been more unscrupulously used than almost any other, and which seems much misapplied as regants the proposition of the Government to establish in Ireland these colleges for the instruction of the higher and classes there. I thought that the clear and perspicuous stateme•it of the Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in which he referred the disastrous failure of every attempt to propagate in Ireland education on the exclusive principles of the religion of the Church of England, must have convinced the Hon. Baronet that in this experiment it was useless to persev, re. If any thing could be made perceptible to the mind of the Hon. Gen tieman—if anything could force conviction on his mind, and even in despite of the inveteracy with which lie cherishes his opinions—these notorious facts would have forced that convic t' on. He said there was no former instance of a State under taking the education of a reople without connecting with it a religious system. The Hon. Baronet seemed to have forgotten the system of national education in Iceland.—(hear.) The original plan was often pressed on the attention of the House by my lion. Friend the Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse) to whom the credit of its system belongs, although, until this eveniiez, I never heard a Minister of the Crown make the ail snis-ion. The whole of the plan introduced by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley) was one condensation of suggestions thrown out from time to time by my Hon. Friend, whose reward is confined to his own breast, which might admit of the highest order of reward.—( Hear.) This system of national education, I repeat, has been sanc tioned and established by the Government.—(Sir B. Inglis gave signs of dissent) - Does the Hon. Baronet dispute in the the teeth of the fact ? Sir R. INGLIS—(as we understood him)—it was not an Endowment. Mr. SHEIL—ShaII we dispute about the word " endow ment"—shall we go into sophistications and learned subtleties ? The Hon. Baronet is a member of a scholastic institution, and brings from it with him distinctions which rather belong to refined dialectics. There is no real, substantial distinction be- twcen a grant made every year and an endowment, but the latter has the great advantage of avoiding disputes and contro versies, of which we have recently had such Lamentable in stances.— ( Hear, hear.) In one point of view, strange to way, I coincide with the lion. Baronet. I mean with respect to the necessity of religious instruction—l think it is unfortunate that the Right Hon Gentleman has not devised some means. I will yet trust to the ingenuity of the Right Hon. Gentleman to pro vide some means by which the reproach may be re moved that no religious instruction of any kind is to be given in these establishments. The object is, of course, to make • this measure acceptable to the great body vf the people and to those who have great weight and influence among them, I mean the Roman Catholic priest hood, to conciliate whose feelings you are evidently anxious. The great body of the Roman Catholic priesthood will com plain that no means have been adopted for the purpose of con veying religious instruction in those colleges, and my Hon. Friend made, I think, a very useful suggestion that, hereafter, individuals might be allowed to grant, fur the purpose of en dowing a chair of divinity, if they thought proper. The sug gestion seemed to have been adopted by the Right Honourable Gentleman, but such a matter ought not to be left, I said not say to caprice, but to the casual discretion, respecting the ex ercise of which we cannot with any confidence predicate. I tell you that the Roman Catholic clergy will object to your plan on this ground. I have here a pamphlet, written by a gentleman of high talents, a personal friend of my own, who is professor in the Catholic College of Thurles, which was esta blished by a Roman Catholic Archbishop, who bequeathed to it 20.000/., which he earned hard in the seminary of Uiver stone in this country. Dr. Lahey is the author of the pamphlet to which I allude—the ablest man in the college. He is of opi n:on that there ought to be a separate system of education where practicable., but be says a " mixed system of education is better than none, but with a mixed system of education, reli gious instruction is compatible." Religious instruction is given to the lower classes in Ireland under the present system of education there. Merman Catholic priests attend at the schools for the purpose of giving religious instruc tion, and Protestant cler,:ymen are likewise at liberty to do se. Certain houses are there allocated for the purposes of religious instruction, and every facility is offered to those who attend to administer such instruction. I should think the same facilities nu i sht to be given here— ( Hear, hear. from Sir J. Graham) — and that it should be made imperative on those in the establish ments to attend some place of religious worship. —( No, no.) I can see no objection. I think it is a very reawriaVe request. You may say you cannot apply the public money to religious education, and I admit that difficulties have been thrown in the way of such a pi opo.ition on a late occasion which may well discourage any Government. But a middle course may be adopted, and I should very much regret that no religious in struction was to be given in those colleges. 1 think the Ca tholic bishops in their particular districts ought to see that re ' ligiiius instruction was given to those members of his faith who were in that college. I am sure it would be his duty, and I see no sort of reason why he should not. Sir J. GRAHAM—There is nothing to prevent them. Mr. SUET'. —I own that I desire Cf.at means s ere taken to promote the eocial and religious peace of -Iredm t .N io o t, s li R a t. , i Ol Ireland.ln E u was to make the institutions of the country hat' the peopl e ' monise with the religious feelings of roi' l e de ' l r l a a s nd so ha d d efi a ci p el o i p t Ireland, and she had three universities ; Prussia, pulation of thirteen and a half millinns, had eight univelas: , cities ; Bavaria, with a population nearly four millions, h.° three institutions of this kind ; in France there wag one u l n . !- versity to every million and a half of the population: Vi'lll uoiaftiaocaadneemaryyl equlttsatiii t; Ireland had only one to eight million.. There ought to be „ a t least five or six instead of one for such lation as Irela" - a popu .. . He • aas persuaded that many of the evils of Ireland hadn arisen from the want of education, and tiotenicsekettiveh'iGitsiFioraysieelrn'td.itc,. , ment proposition should have his hearty support. It shout,: command his warmest support, as he looked upon it a t. measure well calculated to improve the condition of Irelan I . Mr. ACLAND rose to defend the Hon. Member fortinees University of Oxford; (Sir Robert Inglis) from the att fo rt h- University Bath.which had e b ( 7 i n r. mAaderanudp)onwhasimwbiyllinthge Hon. 3 of the blame attached to his Right HOU. in his charging the Government proposition as a " gig_ an ,„, t scheme of Godless education." He was not prepared to a" ti t the words his of Hon. Friend, hut in the spirit he was agie;uo He believed the Government were perfectly holiest in thr e e'' n which they had brought forward, for he had never seen ,:,, to think them otherwise in any part of their genetal cove c i_ lemberkafste but he regretted that they had not paid mote attention ti . ) 1 religious feeling, of the country, and acted less in a liberal " ii , latitudinarian spirit. At present he was not prerared te g. t ` e h t, decided opinion on the measure, but he promised togive it patient attention and consideration. He sympathised i° 1)7 t w h i e ih ß t u hLs , o i u c ti a d th a ( n )l d ic p m ra e c a t t i h e e a r l s v w ie h w ( s t t h h a a d t s h r ad ke b n een eaPr es • -, than in the liberal views of the other support::: o th l etqhueel - " IFe a" ; sure. He sioutited the soundness of the principle of edue:_ i 7 students of di ff erent religious persuasions together in one el l nary, and was of opinion that more good would be do ne 1 1, each religious persuasion having a collage of its 0 •"P' t h a t ' was further of opinisn that a system of mere lectures likewiatii proposed could scarcely be considered education, Do s sers , " rather lead to what Coleridge had called .'Lecture, of • and', little toe aids th e ' e ff e ctual education of the peoPie Ire Lo land. rd PALMERSTON said lie was glad to finds that t ,k e t , Government had proposed the present measure is hebselTd they bad done, and, considering the state of Irelan d ,' t e s t nos think that they could proceed in any other way te ar ' ,to which they did. It was objected that no professors tv,,e,rookt be appointed to teach certain theological opinions. " 0 he they establish one professorship ot theology ? If en"' w o that to be a Protestant professor ? And if so, did they suPP, - 0 1- the Roman Catholics would send their Children to th° -- to he lcges ?—( Hear, hear.) If the professor of theology W ai l en a Roman Cathode, did the • suppose that the Pretestaivii ea the other hand, would send Y their children there?---1( . r 6 S hear.) Would they have professors of both r e )4 l ::r.) what became of the system of mixed education:--;.k.,,,s bY That would defeat the design of cementing the tyre reng''' ol t he relations of mutual harmony, which was the ohPe t i tab measure.—( Hear. ) A theological civil war would 1)11 ,,,e. he lished in those colleges and universities, instead 0 1 t ''' c ,s,-- coming, as was expected, the foundation of religious Peatit,se (Laughter.) There is no other alternative but tha t ot her, should be no theological professor of one creed O r the its but that both parties should receive theological instruc the'hat academies exclusively devoted to theological Purr s :i miles , was the only mode in which they could proc ee Q d to- they could have the students lodged and h; tte h a gether, as in Oxford and Cambridge, but " t est it system would entail such an amount of expenditure t to ed would be out of the question to think that Parlia u " n o f bah incur it.--( Hear, hear.) He had himself ex perieeee, Ejio systems, because he was three years at the university 0 0 . uid be • burghs where the same system was adopte d which :di " est adopted in respe c t o f t h e Irish colleges ; and he after 9 w ed. Aesl to Cambridge, where a different system wa s P nr a theolog ical when per s ona t a lk e d o f th ose c olleges not having nrsit chair, he would appeal to the Right Hon. Gentleman Lord the Chancellor of the Exciteuer, who was with lii" i la io to : Palmerston) in Cambridge, to have the goodness to e t alL ir e in the House w hat was the kind of theological edticataiold:l"o,o,) their time was given at Cambridge.—( Hear, hear, " c ident ° f Why it was well known that those who, from the ae . cor taie their birth, were entitled to the degree of M.A. at o ' , it arse age, were not examined in theology. If that wa' s t Mil: taking somewhat too large a 1 berty with espreesiontsheet ropes nate those colleges theological schools, standi n g in there for' s: on the same footing as Cambridge. lie' lan phi ' thought that Government adopted the only P, I re land' was applicable to the peculiar circumstances of at m oral and he hailed it as the foundation, first of all, of th e g re n d as 111° improvement in the middle classes of the Irish p eo P le ,;( g the diffe' ' foundation of social concord between the members that 00 4. rent creeds who composed the population 1 th o nly t he But he agreed with those who thought that this sre_S, b s ee that , foundation of a more complete plan. He thought. e"_ nu elitst the three colleges should be united in one university streloaesis or that Trinity College should be thrown ope n ir ! distioe Si° which he thought might be done without losing_ ita tatig hter• s l character as an exclusively Protestant college.S 0 it "' The present measure would be incomplete en,eart Kesel combined combined with some arrangement of this kind.- 0 a , rbO UI It would be a matter of regret to him if this mess t iiite the meet with any considerable opposition. It se as ": ) ,igl t ! Nlaynooth grant, where certain religious objectiontto (0 . ite urged against it, but it was a measure Whie 4 ,si t s of hi e ! . object the education and instruction of the Catholi:tro4usght Iv latid, and if it met with any material oppositie",',. / 2 Irish People e effect it would produce upon the minds of L"' , , t would be most iejurious to this country'. „,,,;,hea 1° ` u The CH A NCEL LOR of the EXCHEQVr''' wise the Noble Lord right with regard to one of h i s „„ ne sred st o i t which was not quite so correct as the Noble Lovely Universals think. The Noble Lord had sated that at the ',),` the ca se • o C f ai s i t i u b d ri e d , f t e w n h o o th d e i o d lo n g o ic t a p l reoxpoamst,ntiaaktito4 tlol l l n b lee a c er l ; , i nor .o . se far n that from this being the case, he could assure the Nehl e t i on , of Il e tal Gi si i Ni, s ei: l l. ) ,:r. e ai.l.i l t . e.tiNc,,,xv.i:Acligub in every instance students were examined Wee P rn.-I it events,.. thew°. nation,l Nh L oc f l l yb tT o r o .,..i.e N er se r ,p e t : i e rsi m n b to c e r e c d o7 t sshieadtto,,rf easiti fi . e;_ t:itre who 0 •,.- t : hi doty t° MBE said he had felt it to be -- . 8 , he O s oppose the Government on the Ilaynooth grant, be" su se" ' his in es averse to all connexion between Church and State. ' a nd : 11 • sus e, however, was solok of an educational character', if tri e ' it eppeared to him highly' calculated to benefit all alter' , cif support.—Leave givengis•e t t o he hri G h o v i e n rn th m e l t ii 2: o4 to, g SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER:IIO &Coe" the :speaker do leave the chair for the House goi"g `n toy d Ut yesterday, C O HouseNl l attention he i‘pirre. presented , do • mit tee of Supply. e sllil,. Is BE o n ' ( e i t ' w h e e h w t I t i i e t h h t i w t a i a o v r s t i e w p o ni f r i i n E f vt IB:lh:24°3yr shortly t if tte i h e e ge t t l: i e e sr ! ia ! that morning. He had since made inqinries Int°, t say t`_,7,, tions contained its the petition, and he regretted r ° t h e e r,,,, , they were substantially correct. The Hon. Menth h e avo a lres t y, a p p ea p t e e a d re t d he in ci T ta h li e m s s , t , a n n . c a e n s d o f concludedth e pet i t b i o y n , whi ch a . a n ° W est ment to the motion of the Chancellor ot the ts°, rhe s ~ the petition be referr e d t o a Select Committee. .. an d the e ' i ' Committee having power to report their o p inion o ° I ' denee to the House. to o or Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that, in c ° " se t f o o. 6 ,1 he man opposite, he instituted an inquiry notice which he had already received from the - a ses a " be i n to the e o ut t 7,01 part's true. It was highly improper in found that the all- gallons which were made tun!' g r ate t ° . a er the tnag' • ee a els ' t• Is' v ile a warrant when the proper course would be _ as a s os mons. At all events, he thought the offence ^ v „ I lse ol d one, sad he did not think that issuing a* et inoo _ ce , a proper course. The statement o f the . r at vo is. ,l , the statement of the magistrate were entirell, * to be t ee and he thought that the matter ought 00 0 ' cos oirt• t had', lowed to rest as it was. Further inquiry was n fo on o gee ' thought that the lion. Gentleman and others , 0 well . ' P r been stated, would think it highly inexpedient t 0 o t a , matter further in the House. 1 ,,d to bear sien• , Mr. WAKLEY said that he should be g r, o RIP"' t . los , answer from Mr. Briscoe, the magietrate, to te ,nforree Di p s Gentleman opposite. The brutal conduct of the he refes act on the request of the woman, owing to the misconduct of the magistrate, Whe_n n , eetin„ tm er mitted in his presenoe, but at the request 0 go eme do ct issued a warrant for the woman's allowedapprehensio o ch l o in conceive a more gross case, and if they _...., have _ t , b e on the part of the magistrate what would tO;J gre c orre: ip 0 constable? If the allegations of the woma n e ats re in thought that the magistrate should not be all° el her n" the Bench. bat fu rt is ye Mr. DUNCOMBE—As it hail been stated t itil ara to 7 quiry would be instituted, he begged lea" , • amendment which he had proposed. tern eris an assault low( ethe ini,,,i oat THE MEDICAL BILL. _ o f e sta r i v et 13 6. ' • Mr. WAKLEY said that, iu cosseequeni cte:t Kepi aiat. made the other night, he would ask the IlVational A s a s. , if he would say that the Committee of the „ e l ; 0 , incr s ad ; Lion had been Wormed of the terms on w hi .in t he 11 ' ' • tion would be eounected with his measure! 0 whether he had their consent to these er°l46l°notions Sir J. GRAHAM did not understand the qu Mr. WAKLEY then repeated it. . o nee 0 tbe ' t utsk in fi in - Sir J. GRAHAM said that he did net res , , if t he ~,,.. • statement to which the lion. Member re refr el • l ' c ould erl'' ' Gentleman would put it in a form in which he I aril eves c' e id stand it, he would answer it. tion - 0- i Mr. WAKLEY said he thought the q ues tw in ow . put on both occasions. (f the Right Hon. G en ho es. ° not , e d state that the charter of incorporation would I° ' • snort, Ile would not say anything about it. l a , sod The House then went into Committee of 5t 1 14 ) . , e a i l , a sum of 50,0001, on account for the public • _, 0, p _ s ordrat ° log W The Hoes° then resumed, and the other were then disposed of, and the House adjourn. ste 3 ue Twelve o'clo c k ' eiii—es--.----•----"""""ese"*"'"- -s,-"Ts,----, ---------s ta o are req.' , hi MR. D'ISRAELI'S ANEW 11 ORIC.--- " - s n tio7, , in J to state that ', Sybilthe I : w° i n gshP rt . - 0( B. D'lsraeli, Esq., M.P., author of ' e l l r. calbn o 'sall volt., p• iiit 8 vo., ii published this a.y bY nos y be 1 ,0 : ' 4 (..t . Great Marlb3rough-street, and miY ~ v it. 1 fo r r i . Ire' Lo ,ksellers, and at all the libraries. •Ats b e n - rg h ; t u laud, Messrs. Bell and Bradfute, Ed in n os 9, land, Mr. John Cumasing, Dublin. tooo scel i cr ia% SPLENDID ARRANGEMENT or aso hew l i n old • producing the effect of a long arcade, Elloroon or as to cause a doubt whether You are ill „ Rome. di 10 P il° *rroof " Arch follows arch, and pile succae , 8 ,0 a ,i d i This unique apartment is devoted to " Sting a b °' st . ins the hair in, and with another haviniii osiiieg6.4 view of Naples, sees on the ground -110°r' 0 So lli t heY tenti,l,n to their establishment, 1,10°.,_%_..-Yi4'!, lb! ' to notice the advantages of their sy )L na v— en frow o z . , , never take apprentices nor youn,g_._„. fore t iIC J o di man to wait upon them country, nor Object to customers ae1 ,1 _ 1 5 , b 5 ci,,..'„ bruised'ru t they never being used twice, t wilh"::.s h i th g o • th s t.,tn as , and parties are not pressed ".,:, Day things .„(), dish. a - want. Address, Il - J r.; and Sons, 119 and " ...4 altt-striset. ---------ho 1,01 A `....- - ------__..,,____ BIRTHS. Tomboy', t of 1 Cla the 14th of March, at Boree Bander, oily ArtaY' of J. G. Moyle, Esq., 10th Raiment, Bo ~, vol t ; every person n e.O . 00$ b De P- --11 , t er. daughter. ' Lot , . Town, Kingsland, the wife of Mr. D. NS • ...-____,_,_ t gt Iltalt4, • On the 30th ult , at De Beauvoir l:lli es ' v " - f a dling li NARR/ED. ,o tit° t lad's On the 10th of March, at Ahmedabad, I lion' tei ..ab ,ths to Mary 'g 6 Company's 3d Bombay Light Cavalry, .., o f Gray ..----- Lieutenant William Ashburner, Adjutant, -; Ent 10' only daughter of Thomas Wormald, Esq" square. ..aer.l s°. DIED. ...._ w. good.V l l 7,A u ' On the 7 tb inst., at Engleffeld-green rare __ tena nt al l s ped On the 13th of March, at Benares, Lie u sf Benga l sten t.vell" taut Colin it. Larkins, of the:loth Regitne nt u Infantry. n ear -s-e On the sth inst., at Everton goose , i ' Hants, Major C. M. Roberts, aged 63. ~,l e . s , 0 DD Y °1 ( 0 . 1 1 1 suit , cola London: Printed and Published by suit 0 ty 0 No. 112...541:and, Printer, at The ill P‘ I Bland, in the Preeisact of the Sitlo.9P Middlesex, Saturday, Kay 10, 18451 enforce it.—(No, no.) Well, I am anxious that your plan should succeed, though I sec much i❑ it that is imperfect. I am anxious, for that purpose, to take means to conciliate those who have paramount influence in Ireland.—( Hear, hear. ) You made great mistake: about the Charitable Bequests Bill— mistakes which I foresaw and warned you of. I told you you committed a great error in not consulting the Roman Catholic Bishops. You consulted them on the slaynooth Bill, and you succeeded. 1 now warn you again, thit you must obtain their support to make this plan work efficiently. Having said thus much with respect to apart of the plan, I cannot help expres sing my regret that the present condition of the University of Dublin is not modified. The Right Hon. Baronet has not told us whether he intends to affiliate the proposed colleges with the Dublin University. He referred to the 23d sect, of the Aet by which fellowships were reserved exclusively for Protestants ; but there is a very important section in that Act, to which I will call the attention of the House, which has not been di rected to it. The A.rt contains an express provision that there may be another college subsequently founded in connexion with Dublin College. A distinction must be ob served between Dublin College and Dublin University. The A c t o f 1793, I say, provides that another college may be esta blished imcannexion with the Dublin one, which other was to forma part of it. Ti.us we may see, at once, that in 1793, when Rotnau Catholics were ltss powerful than they are now, that even then it was contemplated to establish a college to which Roman Catholics and Protestants should have ready access, and which would be placed in conjunction with Trinity College. Trinity College, Dublin, as it at present stands, is a great obstruction in the way of earning out a just, equitable, and liberal policy towards the people, of Ireland. The Ri g ht Hon. Baronet adverted to the evidence of Mr. O'Connell; but it must be recollected that that evidence was given under a very different state of circumstances to those which at pre sent exist—when the Irish Catholics were treating for a re moval of the disabilities which affected them. At the very same time that this evidence had been given, it was proposed by Lord FranCis Egerton to endow the Roman Catholic priesthood, and if this had been then done, tie Protestant university would have been allowed to remain undisturbed. You should not now refer with a country where the great majority of the people professed Roman Catholic principles—persons in the very utmost degree opposed to the doctrines of the Established Church. And they proposed to give the persons professing that religion the opportunity of receiving the same academical education. And they proposed to do this by establishing three distinct colleges in different parts of the country. its the north they proposed to build one of these colleges, where it might be ex pected that the benefits of the establishment would accrue to the members of the Presbyterian Church. • They proposed .also, in the south and west of Ireland, to found institutions peculiarly applicable to the stecessitiee of the Roman Catholic population. His Hon. Friend had said that he objected to this measure, because it did not make religious instruction a necessary part of the education of the people. He conceived that it was incumbent upon them as a Protestant Government to maintain the integrity of the Queen's College in Dublin, but he could not concur in the policy which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Inglis) advocated of laying down certain rules prohibiting the inlet ference of Government with the youth of Ireland. If they attempted to attach weight to any system of national education, they must study the re ligious bias of the people, before they could hope to overcome the prejudices of the country. But his Hon. Friend asked him why he did not supply theological instraction also? Here he must give credit to his lion. Friend for the consi.tency he evinced in opposing the grant to iNlaynooih, for when they proposed to supply education through that institution the R:ght Hon. Baronet opposes it, anti said that it was opposed to the principles of true religion. He regretted to hea - the Right on. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon state that they ought to have consulted the Roman Catholic ',relates of Ireland before they had definitely arranged their. glans with re spect to these educational establishments. But the Right Hon. Gentleman might not he aware shat they had done so in proposing this grant for the purposes of Roman Catholic in struction. The Right lion. Gentleman had complained that they (the Government) had not consulted them en this occa sion, and that in consequence the Government measure would certainly fail. If they had consulted the Roman Cat hallo Pt elates, he did not see that they were not bound to consult the ecclesias tical authoriiies of England also. Ard he would vete ure to say that if they had done so, it would be impossittle to reduce to practise any general system of education. They ft:mid that in the neighbourhood of Cork, Galway, and Limerick, there were no means of educational instruction existing, and the Go vernment intended to supply .hat deficiency. They intended to found professorships in the different walks of science, of art, and of literature, and they would endeavour to provide the means for establishing a medical seheol in the same lieselity. But if they endeavoured to endow a Protestant 1 rofe sor in a locality purely Catholic, it might with justice be demateted that they should endow a Roman Catholic professor al.°. He had hoped that the arrangement tacitly agreed 10, would leave been decided on by either party. They would be willing to allow everything for what they considered •the advantage of either religion. They intended to provide apartments for those young persons who received religious instruction from profes sors of divinity, from clergymen connected with the religion of each pupil. When his Honourable Friend the Member for the University of Oxford called this measure a gigantic scheme of 'Godless education, he (Sir R. Peel) would prove to his Hon. Friend that he had for twenty years been a party to a precisely similar system. He ( Sir it. Inglis) had supported the institution of Belfast, which had been conducted on exactly the same principles, and which had met the support of many of the highest parties in the empire, as the Bishop of Down and Cashel, the Bishop of Dunmore, and the Marquis of Downshire. He had no doubt that if the Hume passed this measure. it would be the very best means of affordtng peace to Ireland, by instituting a reciprocal course of charity, which would go far to bring about that happy result, Mr. SHEIL explained that he . had rot been aware that apartments would be provided lor divinity lectures, and this certainly made a very considerable difference. The circum stance of such accommodation being provided would give great satisfaction. Mr. SH AW said he did not mean to occupy the time of the house but for a ♦ery short period ; but on a question of this sort, when the name of the institution which he represented had been intioduced, and so frequently referred to, he thought he was called upon to make a few observations. He was happy to observe that a measure like this, coining from the present Government, had been so well received by the opposite party; and though lie did not entirely approve of the measure, yet he did not rise for the purpose of saying that he would oppose the introduction of the measure. lie agreed with the Honourable Member for Bel‘ast, that this would be a most useful and beneficial measure for Ireland ; for, in the southern d istrict. of that country, the middle-classes, who were Roman Catholic, would have then all the facilities of a liberal education, while the middle•clasres in the north, who were Presbyterian, would have placed within their reach the enjoyment of a like advantage. But he should confess that, with regard to the question of religious education, that pre sented such a difficulty that he could not well see his way through it. In Trinity College, Dublin, persons of all reli gious denominations were admitted there for educational pur poses, and there was no necessity imposed for the residence of the pupils in the college, for they received their religious in structions from their parents or guardians, or those with whom they might happen to be located.—( Hear, hear.) He had heard the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon, but he d;d not think the Right lion. Gentle man had correctly represented what he stated in the first in stance. He (Mr. Shaw) should say that the Right Hoe. Gentleman was in error as to the practice at Trinity College, and the emolument of the professors. The CAlege was a= ()pee as it could he to Human Catholics with resi.ect to education, and for competition for all the offices and emoluinen's. Mr. SHEIL What enielumente ? Mr. SHAW eisheit not to be m'sunderstood. Ile did not mean the fellowships. but the prefestorships, of which there were eight, awl one of which, that of professor of Italian, was a Roman Catholic. Then as to those tt vast emoluments" that had been spoken of, why, there were no such emoluments ; the emoluments were very trifling, indeed scarcely anything. It was tine they had chambers, but their allowance was very small. But, on the whole, he would say that in no one point of view in which the Right Hon. Gentleman had put the question ' could he (Mr. shaw) agree that Trinity College should be thrown open to all, because it wa- a colleve that had been established for Protestant purpose. exclusively. It would be utterly impo , sible that it could be, beeaus,, in the first pl,:ee, it was impossible that the fellowships cow(' be open to Roman Cathodes, or they were obliged not only to be Protestants, but frequently to enter the Protesdint elurch. Then as to the Board of Seven, of which tie Right Hon. Ge. tleman had spoken, and that some of them ought to be Roman Catholics; that Board was composed of seven of Ow oldest fellows in the ellege; their emoluments were derived from patronage in the Established Church, and would it, there fore, be fair or just that Roman Catholics should hare the power of distributing that patronage ?—( Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. Shaw) felt inclined to make some observations epon the speeches of the Right lion. Baronet at the head of her 'Majesty's Government and of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department; but as he did not think the present was the proper tame to du so, he would reserve himself until that time did come. He would, therefore, conclude by repeating that he would not oppose the introduction of the measure, nor did he think he would at any period of its pro gress offer it any opposi ion. Mr. WARBURTON said he would not address one word to the House on the subject, connected as it was with Ireland, except that he had heard a good deal said of the London Uni versity, of the Senate of which lie happened to be a Member, and of the management of which he had heard some observa tions that betrayed ignorance of the subject. Now, the Lon don University had no fewer than five Roman Catholic col leges connected with it, and those who presided over those col leges were candidates for all the honours of that University. There were also several other colleges connected with it, of different religious persuesions, and the superintendents also enjoyed the same privileges, and the only object of that was that the academical honours should be open to all classes. if such were the case, then, in the London university, let the country hear no more of this exclusive ness—( Hear)--and he hoped it would not be long before he should hear of the State establishing in Dublin a great univer sity, similar to the London University.—( Hear.) If they wished these new universities to flourish, they must open the secular rewards to the persons who distinguished themselves in these institutions. He sat down altogether approving of the measure of her Majesty's Government, as far as it went, and hoped it would be followed up. Mr. PL UMPIRE objected to the plan, as there was no re cognition of Christianity, and brought forward the feet that the Rev. Dr. Arnold, who hail been connected with the Lon don University, found it necessary to withdraw from it. because there was no recognition of Christianity entertained there. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that he would not trespass anion the House, but for the expressions made use of by the Member for Dublin, who attacked the Hon. Member below him for the views which he had taken with regard to the pro priety of having the fellowships opened to the Roman Catho lics. He also wished to set him right on the point, that the entire of those who had finished their studies at the university did not become clergymen. As one who had prosecuted his studies at that university, he (Mr. O'Connell) wished to state that half of them became members of the bar. It would be far better if they adopted the system of excluding none, on account of religion, from the honours bestowed upon the suc cessful candidates at Trinity College, Dublin. It was of the greatest importance that the Government should leave nothing undone. Let them not hear of conscientious objections, which in the course of a few years they would have to set, asele. Let them not wai: until another little black cloud would appear in the horizon, to grant any further little concessions. He hoped, that as this measure was about to be followed up, that those educated in Cork would not be exclusively Roman Catholics, nor those educated in Belfast be exclusively Presbyterians, but to see all tests receiving common education in all the colleges. He thought that the evil was that of establishing these institutions apart from Trinity College, Dublin. If they did this, they would have a prejudice raised ag, , inst them. They would be called pro vincial institutions, things of modern date ; and those persons who would be educated there would have to go and finish their education in Trinity College. Dublin, or at Oxford. He was anxious not to occupy the House further than by saying, that when the Bill should be brought in'he hoped that it would be found to be one which would give general satisfaction i n Ireland. to statements which wore only made" conditionally.—( Hear.) You did not enter into any con•ract with us. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government distinctly declared he would enter into no compact with Roman Catholics. But might you not open Trinity College as a great national establishment without incurring the evils you apprehend. You think it would not be consistent with justice or policy to do so. I think it is not consistent with justice or policy to close it. Remember that you leave Trinity College in the enjoyment of permanent and predominant advantages. Its possessions are very large. The fellows of that college raise each about 2,000/. a year, and they have a high social position, as well from their great acquirements, as from their ample emoluments. It sends two Members to Parliament, arid, in short, enjoys many other advantages above any other institution. Now, as long as it is thus predominant, for so long you cannot expect the Catho lic people will be reconciled to it. I know you will tell me that the interests of the Established Church require that it should be in some respects exclusively Protestant. How un fortunate it is that whenever a project for the amelioration of the country is devised, the Church Establishment must be flung in its way— ( Hear, -hear)—and encounter the projector at every step. There can be no doubt but these fel lowships would be eagerly s ruggled for by Catholics if they were open to them—that thee are in the road to the highest promotion, and yet in what conriexim (properly speaking) with the Ecclesiastical department ?—( Hear. hear.) When Roman Catholics are admi , ted to universities, they should be allowed o reach the acme of their honours, their dignities, and their emoluments—they should be allowed to pluck the golden fruits which grow on the tree of knovvledge.—(Cries of Hear, hear.') There existed a system in that college with respect to scholarships, which is every way worthy of condemnation. A Roman Catholic enters as a star, and ob tains the prizes in science and the classics. After two years' study, he can only become a candidate for a scholarship by re linquishing his faith. which many, I regret to say, have done from sordid motives, and afterwards relapsed into open infi deltty. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) told the Recorder for Dublin, a few nights ago, that ascendancy in Ireland was at an end ; but Trinity College, as it now stood, was an odious monument of ascendancy.—(Hear.) If they leave Trinity College as it stands, they leave it be cause of its ascendancy, and I shall ask the Government if it will be wise, if it will be politic, to do this after the Right Hon. the Secretary for the Home Department has told them that the future Government of Ireland cannot be conducted on the same principle ? What IC should now wish to see is this, an equality between those professing Roman Catholic principles and the Protestants of Ireland. While I thus object to the Government policy in detail, I cannot ob ject to the general principle which they pursue, because I think it calculated to induce a more friendly feeling between the countries. I cannot, under these circumstances, with. hold my meed of praise from the Government measure as far as it goes, Sir It PEEL said the Right Hon. Gentleman had neither, by his speech or his intended vote, removed his impression of the course he had pursued in 1835, when he (Sir R. Peel) had said that the ;hie( tliNculty of his Government s ested with Ireland. The Right Hon. Baronet had not certainly done much to remove tnat impression from his ( Sir R. Peel's) mind, when he found the Right Hon. Member for Dungar von prepared to vote with the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Oxford, in his opposition to a measure which was intended as ono of justice to the people of Ireland. In addressing him self, in the fi st place,' to the observationi which hi& fallen fi ova the Right Hon. Member for the University of Oxford (Sir R. IL Inglis), he felt it might be asked, what was in tended by the term " educational instruction ?" They had already provided ample raeans for the instruc tion of the pogr9r classes i rc iand, k, his Right Honourable F rien d the secretary for the Rome Department had informed them that they had educated about 400,000 of the children of the poorer classes i t Ireland. But they found that in Ireland there was not the same amount of academical in struction which they had in Scotland—a country with only one• third of the population. In Scotland they had five institutions for educational purposes, bat in Inland there were no such ad vantages. They had, indeed, two establishments for the pur poses of secular and reigioub ejneatlon-tltheone, Trinity Col lege, Dublin, and the ether the much'-vilified Maynooth Col lege. In no other instance did any institution exist in Ireland for the purpcses of affoFdigg guch insti - u4iou as might be en couraged by the State. The Clovernnaent proposed to supply that omission, but it must be remembered that they had to deai Mr. SHAW said a few words in explanation. lie would not now enter into the consideration of this measure, reserving to himself the right of taking any course he might think fit on a future occasion. Mr. HOPE felt groat repugnance to this measure, as it had been brought forward to sanction an university in Ireland upon the principles upon which the University of London had been established. If the Government had come to the conclusion that it was necessary for the pacification of Ireland, and fur the improvement of the moral and social condition of that country to make the magnificent grant of 26,000/. a year to the College of Maynooth, and 118,0001. to these three colleges, he would implore them not to stop there. There were other parts of her Majesty's dominions in which the religion of the people was not adequately cared fur. Let them look to the retiring, quiet, and unobtrusive clergymen of Wales. Let them nqt turn a deaf ear to the reapectful petitions of the OhUrehmen of Wales. Those petitions did not come from meetings held on the hill of Tara, or from Conciliation Hall, but from peacoful and loyal subjects. Mr. ROEBUCK said so far art he understood the plan of the Right Hon ! liarona it was intended that Trinity C o ll ege should remain for the education cf Protestants, and Maynouth for the education of Roman Catholics, while these additional colleges were to stand between the two for the education of youth of every religious denomination. Now he confessed that the proposition which had been submitted to tlir. flov ise t as rhiA goormeeiat appea re d not sufficient to remove the evil desirous c i f gettiog rid of. The Right Honourable Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford had pronounced the measure a " Gigantic scheme of Godless education," but it appeared to him the Right Hon. Baronet t t'ad toada a last effort to defend a ter: nipal power, aid tee therefore trusted the Government would treat it With the imnternpt it merited, Sir H. WIN 81: 111 40 N, in sqpportilig the motion, said that he had Wittieticd ecamplea of liberality in Protestant countries witkli Protestant England rdght imitate, if not with pride, certainly with advantage. He believed that Holland was the most Protestant country in Europe, f t, 'O4 had found Catholic professors at Utrecht, aziii Prnfe - a sor at Haarlem. He hod cn7e 1 41 4 a convereatiOn with a professor in a f. - fireign 4iiressed his surprise that liberal and Protedtent England had in her universitie s such exclusive, or he would rather say e 'rhi d ir 4 g 1 1.1*-,15 the universities of Cambridge and f2tafTd had. In the empire of Austria which was the most Catholic c:ountry in erC)P i there had recently been an endownlent of a lkotostaut cal chair. All the at temeta tjw had _been Ts•- , to compel the Irish 'people to tip, svrm to the religion of the State hid failed and th e only way to