The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

Holbeach, in Lincolnshire, against the Anti-Corn-law League. The petitioners prayed that the House would not listen to the delusive schemes of self-interested par ties..--(Great laughter.) Mr HUME presented a petition from the Peace So ciety of Ross, praying that the military establishment of the country might be reduced. THE LATE WAR IN. CHINA. - The SPEAKER read a letter from Sir George Burrell, acknowledging the thanks of the House, presented to him- for his services in China. POOR-LAWS. Mr. S. WORTLEY presented a petition from Dews. bury, praying for an alteration in the bastardy clauses of the Poor-law. POOR-LAWS. Mr. P. BORTHWICK gave notice that, upon the House going into Committee upon the Poor-law Amend ment Act, he would move for the introduction of clauses to prevent the separation of married people, above sixty years of age, in workhouses ; for permission to married people under that age to attend each other in case of ill bees ; and for out-door relief in certain cases. NOTICES OF MOTION. ' Mr. HUME gave notice that he would, to-morrow, move for returns of the number of appeals brought before the House of Lords in the last two years. The Hox. MEMBER also gave notice that he would move for a return of thenumber of Custom-house agents discharged in consequence of fraud, and the amount of penalties recovered from the sureties. Mr. H. BERKELEY gave notice, that on the motion for the third reading of the Small Debts Bill, he would move as an amendment that the Bill be read a third time that day six months. Mr. WALLACE postponed to the 29th instant the several motions of which he had given notice for this evening, respecting the Post-office and the Customs. The HON. MEMBER also gave notice of a motion for a return of the amount of receipts from the sale of papers published by order of the House, and also of the expense incurred in defending prosecutions in the Courts of Law, arising out of these publications, in order that the balance should be ascertained. THE GAMBLING ACTIONS. Mr. CHRISTIE gave notice, that in Committee upon the Horse-racing Penalties Suspension Bill, he would move that the power of proceeding for penalties under any Act of Parliament should be taken from common informers.—(Hear, hear.) BRAZIL. Mr. LABOUCHERE gave notice that on Thursday next he would bring under the consideratiori of the House the existing treaties with BraziL THE TREATY OF WASHINGTON. Mr. HAWES moved fora return of papers connected with the treaty of Washington.—Ordered. REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND). Sir R. FERGUSON gave notice of a motion for returns relating to the registration of electors in Ireland. THE QUEEN OF OTAHEITE. Mr. HINDLEY - begged to ask the Right Hon. Gen tleman, the First Lord of the Treasury, whether there was any truth in a paragr aph which appeared in one of the morning papers of t his day, to the effect that Queen Pomare, of Otaheite, had been deposed by the agents of the French Government ? Sir ROBERT PEEL had not so much leisure as the Hon. Gentleman to read the morning papers.—(Laugh. ter.) He had therefore not seen the paragraph referred to, and was unable to answer the question. LIVERPOOL DOCKS. On the motion of Sir H. DOUGLAS, leave was given to bring in a Bill for the improvement of the Liverpool docks. . • RAILWAYS. Leave was also given to bring in Bills for the forma tion of braitol lines connected with the Manchester and Leeds, the Hp,rtlepool, and other railways. • SUPPLY. The Order of the Day for going into Committee of Supply was read, and postponed till Wednesday next. POLITICAL ASSOCIATIONS AND THE PRESS. On the motion for reading the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Poor-law Amendment 13111, • Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he had a question to put to the Attorney-General. It appeared that the proprietors of several newspapers in Ireland had withdrawn them ' selves from the Repeal Association, the reason stated by them for so withdrawing being that Chief Justice Penne - father. had laid it clown as the law that the whole of an association were responsible for any article that might appear in any paper of which the proprietors - Li-night happen to be members. Mr. Barrett, of the -C . Pdot, and Mr. Gavan Duffy, of the Nation, had both stated this as their reason for withdrawing from the Association. Now the question he had to put to the Attorney-General was this—whether, if the matter pub lished in any newspaper, the proprietor of which might • happen to be a member of any association, the whole of the members could be made responsible, if .hit matter was put in as evidence against that association"?—(Hear.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the lion. Gentle man had been kind enough to apprise him, a few minutes previously, that he intended to put the question to him. In answer to it, he would say that he had no doubt the proprietors of the newspapers in question were well advised, and had exercised a . sound discretion in retiring from the Repeal Association.— (Cheers and laughter from the Ministerial benches.) But whatever they might do, under that good advice, it was impossible for him (the Attorney-General) to form any judgment in reference to the general question whe ther the contents of a paper, of which the editor might be a member of an association could be used as evidence • against the whole of the members. unless he knew the objects of the association, to what extent the editors were mixed up with it, what the articles were in refe rence to those objects, and what use was made of those articles.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial side.) Mr. ELPIIINSTONE said he was a member of the Anti-Corn-law League—(Ministerial cheers)—which was an association for doing away with monopoly.— (Ministerial cheers and laughter.) Now there was a journal which was called the LeaguP, in connection with that Association. and he wanted to know whether he ( Mr. Elphinstone) and every other member of that league was liable for every article that might be published in that paper ? He wished to have an answer to that ques tion from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Hon. Gen- tlernan had addressed his question to him, but he did not know that he was entitled to the honour of such a distinction—(Ministerial cheers, and laughter)—but, in answer, he would strongly recommend the Hon. Gen tleman to take the advice ;of his ordinary professional legal adviser.—(Renewed cheers and laughter from the. Ministerial benches.) • Lord EBRINGTON and Mr. HINDLEY here rose about the same time, amidst the derisive cheers of the Mem bers on the Ministerial side of the House, and the latter Hon. Gentleman commenced speaking amidst cries of " Order, order." The Hon. Gentleman having sat down, Lord EBRINGTON, who had first caught the Speaker's eye, proceeded to ask, pursuant to notice, the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to introduce any measure—or the same measure which had been already proposed, with respect to the Administration of turnpike-trusts in England. Sir J. GRAHAM said that he had intended to intro duce a measure on the subject. but that a Commission had been appointed to inquire into, and report upon the subject. The Commissioners had fully investigated the matter, and. he expected that their Report would be , ready in a very short time, and before introducing any 1 measure of the kind, he wished to have the advantage of receiving their Report. Mr. HINDLEY said he must confess that he was not satisfied with the answer which had been given by • the Attorney-General to the question of the Honourable Gentleman behind him (Mr. Elphinstone). He (Mr. Ilindley) had consulted his professional law adviser on the subject, and that gentleman told him that the Asso ciation called the Anti-Corn-law League was a perfectly legal one. But that would not decide the question if the Attorney-General was directed, as in the case of Mr. O'Connell, after 11 or 1 2 months, or a long time had elapsed, to proceed against its members.—(Cries of " Order, order.") He repeated it would not decide the question which his legal adviser had decided in his favour.—(Re • newed cries of " Order, order.") He now asked the Attorney-General whether the Anti-Corn-law League was a legal Association or not?—(Jeers and cheers from the Ministerial benches.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL appealed to Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House, whether he had ever declined answering any question put to him in that Ilouse ? If the Hon. Member had really any question which he wished to ask him (the Attorney-General), relative to himself (Nlr. Hindley) he would be very happy to answer it, and without a fee.—(Cheers and laughter.) But if he answered the question now he would be oc cupying the public time in a way in which he did not think he should be justified in doing. IRELAND—ADJOURNED DEBATE. --- On the Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned debate on Lord John Russell's motion for a Committee to inquire into the state of Ireland being read, Mr. HORSMAN rose and said, that he felt it his duty, as an English representative, to enter, his protest against the policy which her Majesty's Government bad pursued with regard to Ireland. It had been ad mitted on all sides that we had arrived at a great crisis ; and he should support the motion of the Noble Lord, be • cause he thought it necessary to inquire how that crisis had arrived. (Hear, hear.) There were certain facts : t o t w te hic which no difference of opinion existed. .It was ad dthat three years ago Ireland had been handed river to Honourable Gentle men opposite in a state of peace and tranquillity.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The habits of the p eop l e had improved—(Hear, hear) — troops had been withdrawn—(Hear, hear)—the adminis tration of justice was respected—(Hear, hear)—and the repeal cry was, comparatively speaking, unheard.—(Hear, hear.) Now, however, the repeal cry had had become a na tional cry.—(Cheers.) Mo re troops been sent to Ireland, and the country was covered with garrisons ; thus proving that the Government intended to act upon the announcement which had ma de last year, that conciliation had been been car ried to its utmost extent. — (Cheers.) The Hon. an d Learned Member for Cork had been prosecuted to con viction, and that Hon. and Learned Gentleman was now only awaiting the sentence of the Court which would consign him to a gaol.—(Hear, hear.) By what means had that conviction been obtained ?—(Cheers.) Th e Right Hon. Gentleman had boasted the other night of his moderation and fairness; but be (Mr. Horsman) must confess that he had never known of any proceedings in which moderation and fairness had been more com pletely dispensed with than in the recent prosecutions in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He would not dwell upon the animus which had been exhibited throughout those pro ceedings by the Learned Gentleman who had repre sented the Government—(Hear, hear)—to the extraor dinary preliminary boasting by which the case had been prejudged.—(Hear, hear.) He would not speak of the calling upon one. of the counsel_ for the traversers to protium his license—(Cheers)--oz of THE - SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY - MORNING, FEBRUARY 20, 1844. O'Connell ought to have gone out to the ground and tried the legal question as to whether the Government had a right to stop him or not. He did not think the Noble Lord had reflected well when he stated that. Hs believed it was the advice of a paper which supported the Government in Dublin. Had Mr. O'Connell gone out with that excited multitude, what chance was there, when the crowd was brought in contact with the sol diers, of escaping a tumult. It only required one evil disposed person to show a stone, and the most serious consequences would have ensued. With regard to the prosecutions he should not speak of them—he left them to others, if from no other reason, yet from this, that he despised. them too much.—(Hear.) He should not dwell on the fraud and chicanery which marked them, or the names omitted from the jury -list, for which, though the Attorney-General was not to blame, he had not scrupled to avail himself of the omission. With respect to the men who composed the jury, he did not mean to say that they were men capable of violating their oaths. He believed their verdict was given with all the sincerity and honesty of inveterate prejudice and bigotry.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") It was for those who chose this jury to account for the manner in which they had chosen it. They had struck off the extreme men of one side, who were supposed to be favourable to the accused, and selected men who were known to be most unfavourable to the accused. Most of those persons had been born and nurtured in the most inveterate prejudices against the principles and persons of those whom they were called upon t o t r y. Let any ons go into the Dublin booksellers' shops, and there they would find books for the education of young children filled with ten thousand exploded calumnies against the Catholics of Ireland and their religion— (Hear, hear) —and when the youthful mind was so poi soned, it was no wonder they should be bigoted, nar row-minded men.—(Hear, hear.) He came back to the question he had originally intended to put. What good had these State prosecutions done ?—(Hear, hear.) Would the people of Ireland be more attached to the union, because the lives of the people were jeopardised by the manner in which the Clontarf proclamation was issued ?—(Hear, hear.) It had been said by the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, that the issue of the proclamation had been agreed upon on Friday night, but it was deferred until Saturday afternoon, in order to word it properly. Now, when th e li ves o f so many of her Majesty's subjects were perilled, he did think the Privy Council might' have delayed their sitting on Fri day night until they had written it. Anything would have been better than the mere possibility of such an oc currence. A rumour was prevalent in Dublin which he would not mention—but yet he thought it better to do so, to show in what condition the minds of the people of Ireland were. He hoped the rumour was not true—he was ready to disbelieve it. It was said that two Mem bers were to be found on that Council—and he would say that neither of them was the excellent and gallant gen tleman who commanded the forces in Ireland—that two members of the Council suggested that the hun dreds of thousands might be allowed to assemble at Clontarf, and when the excitement was at the highest pitch that troops should be poured in, the Riot Act read, and, if they did not disperse in fifteen minutes, to disperse them at the point of the bayonet.—(Hear, hear,) It might not be true, but such was the impression that was prevalent in Dublin. He would he happy to hear this rumour denied upon authority. Would all this make the people more attached to the union —(Hear, hear)—because their rights and liberties were hourly placed in jeopardy?—(Hear,' hear.) Would they be more attached to the union, because they saw the man— (and this was a question which might be better asked by any other than himself)--because they saw the man whom they loved and revered, and who had been for forty years their champion and their pride, condemned and waiting for his sentence ?—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had told them that it was his intention to bring in some very good mea sures. Perhaps it was. But the Right Hon. Gentle. man did not need him to tell him that the people of Ireland distrusted him---(Cheers)—and it would take a great deal to convince them that he was in earnest when he said it was his intention to amend the franchise. The franchise was a very good thing; but of what use was the amendment or the extension of the franchise when they who were one-third of the empire possessed only one-fifth of the representation ?—(Hear, hear.) He had heard a good deal said about the small proportion which the Irish paid to the taxation of the empire. That was not the time to go into the discussion of a mere nume rical'question, but he did not hesitate to say, and gen tlemen opposite knew it well, that Ireland paid in the proportion of three to four in the taxation of the empire, and yet her representation was in the proportion of only one to four of Great Britain.—(Cheers.) Right Honourable Gentlemen talked of a grant for education, and if they were prepared to act in good faith, they would confer a great benefit upon the coun try; but why did they not do something to improve the material condition of the people—(Hear, hear)—for it was well known in the history of human nature that, as men improve in their physical condition, they are desirous to educate their children and elevate them above their own condition. They talked, also, of ameliorating the relations between landlord and tenant. Here they had touched a most delicate and dangerous subject.— (Hear, hear.) He had received many hundreds of letters, addressed to him by persons whose hopes or fears had been extravagantly excited by e tho present Commission. So maddened had their minds been by the evils and oppressions of the existing sys tem, that it would be very difficult indeed to persuade them in the end that the Commission was not a mockery and a delusion. Many of those who had been ejected from their holdings were in fond hopes that they would be restored to their land ; whilst those who had superseded them in their farms, were under the equally dangerous impression that they might be turned out to make room for their predecessors. Some might say that it was very absurd for the people to entertain such ideas ; but the persons who said so had little notion of what thoughts will rise in the minds of men writhing in the depths of despair. Did they wish to see a mad and universal outbreak shakilng the whole framework of society in Ireland ? (Hear,' hear.) He trusted that they would, at any rate, endeavour to deal efficiently with that danger. Those who were in the power of the Ministry did not supplicate their mercy.—(Hear, hear.) But let them turn to the condition of Ireland. Let them adopt some measure which would brin g back the money of Ireland to Ireland , and open up her resources.— ever yet p rospere d. Th ere were (H ea r, hear.) There were drain s f rom t h at country under millions country of ab sentee rents. A b out a million was shared from the reduced governmental nearly ex penses of that country. There were i n a ll fi ve or s i x m illions drained from the country— a sum w hi c h ex ceeded her total contributions to the revenue. A gat hich n fireo deal was said about the impossibility of drawing English capital into Ireland. He believed that that was alt,ge ther a fallacy. But, even supposing it to be the case, let them adopt some measure which would give them the use of their own capital.—(Hear, hear.) It was for them to say whether the present state of things should go on, or whether they would boldly meet the difficulties of Ireland. He did not wish to say anything in the way of menace, but he would ask, what had the people of Ireland to attach them to English connection ? What was there in the tyranny which they now endured that exceeded any which they could suffer under a fo reign power ? He would not say anything in the way of menace ; but he would ask whether, even though some of those reverses to which nations as well families were subjected, came upon them, was it well to have one-third of the empire in permanent discontent ? (Hear, hear.) Was it well to be accumulating hatred against themselves when they might be stor ing up love ? Was it well to have Ireland a miserable slave, instead of having her a power ful and loving sister and friend ?--(Hear, hear.) The people of Ireland had never yet received any concession, or any real kindness without labouring to pay it ten fold. " Try it with them again," said the Hon. Gentle man, " you will find the same disposition as they have always shown.—(Cheers.) I tell you that if you conciliate Ireland, not at any period of your past his tory—not in your wildest imaginations of the prosperity of England, will you arise to such a pitch of glory as when you shall make Ireland your friend. Sir, she is willing to be conciliated. I call upon the Ministry—l call upon this House—l call upon the English nation, to make the experiment.—(Cheers.) Be just to Ireland, and fear not ; be unjust—continue your injustice—con tinue your tyrannies—continue your insults—and upon your heads be the fatal consequences."—(Loud cheers.) Colonel VERNER said that he knew Ireland very well, and he regretted to say that notwithstanding the numerous concessions that had been made to the people of Ireland, they were still more estranged from each other—Protestant from Catholic—than he had ever known before. He would ask the Noble Lord if such a state of things as he had just described should be al lowed to continue ? On a recent occasion the Pro testants of the North of Ireland had, when exposed to more than ordinary difficulties, displayed their loyalty in casting aside the blandishments held out to them by the Repealers. According to the statement made by the Hon. Member who had just sat down, he (Col. Verner) understood that the great complaint which was made with regard to the late trials, was, that no Catholics had been put upon the jury—but, he would ask, whether any officer of the Crown, in the discharge of his duty, could have placed avowed Re_pealers in that position ? It had been proved beyond all doubt that the Repeal movement was . an emphatically Catholic one, by the mere fact of the great body of the Roman Catholic clergy to a man joining in that agitation, and by the frequent appeals which Mr. O'Connell made to the reli gious feelings of the peasantry of Ireland. He (Colonel Verner) knew a case himself where a Ribbonman had been put upon his trial and twice acquitted, in conse quence of one juror holding out, and that individual juror eventually was found to have belonged to the Ribbon conspiracy. Captain LAYARD wished that he had the eloquence which was displayed by the g RI ht Hon. and Learned Member for Dungarvon, in his late appeal to the jury in the and then he sho u ld Court of Queen's Bench in Ireland, have been enabled to bring vividly before their minds the result of his observations whilst he was stationed with his regiment in Ireland ; he should then depict the generosity, the charity displayed by the poor to the poorer, and the cheerfulness with which that noble hearted people submitted to most unprecedented priva tions. It had been . asked by Hon. Gentlemen opposite whatwould benefit Ireland ? To that he should reply that it would tend greatly to the benefit of Ireland if every Hon. Gentleman before he took his seat in that House, was to visit Ireland, and observe from personal expe rience the state of that country. In the year 1832 his regiment was stationed in Cork, and his detachment was sent to protect the proctors in the collection of tithes. A collision ensued between the people and the military ; orders weregiven to fire, and several men were shot. He passed the barn where those slaughtered men were lying; and if Hon. Gentlemen were to see the counte nances of the men marked by sullen despair, and to hear the wailings of the women, they could understand, per haps, a little better what were the causes which tend to produce social disor g anization in that unfortunate coun try. Soon afterwards those tithe proctors were mur dered near the very spot where the rencontre took place, and their bodies were removed to an outhouse attached to the clergyman's dwelling, and he (Captain Layard) was sent on detachment to protect him. He saw the clergyman walking about his grounds with a pistol in his hand, and escorted by a policeman armed with a loaded carbine. In that parish there were not six Pro testants, and no church for upwards of one hundred years. Was not that enough to engender a bad feeling in the country ? He had seen thousands fall in the field of battle, but he felt truly sorry that the slaughter of those men was a blot upon the escutcheon of his country. Notwithstanding the great delay which preceded the Catholic emancipation, the Catholic people of Ireland believed that they were to be placed on the same footing with their Protestant brethren, but the late disastrous trials, for by no other name than dis astrous could he style them. had fully proved that Catholic emancipation was little better than a dead let ter. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department had stated that no Coercion Bill would be required for Ireland. In alluding to the next topic he should disclaim all intention of personal feeling or wish to give offence to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ireland, but still he felt it his duty to say that the course which he pursued in the late trials was one which brought the law into great disre pute, and was one which bore its own fruits. At the late trial at the Old Bail of Lieutenant Grant his counsel appealed to the jury whether they would find his client guilty after the Attorney-General of Ireland—one of the first law officers of the Crown in that country —had done the same. He (Captain Layard) would ask the House if Lieutenant Grant had not an excuse to plead, which could not at all be allowed in extenuation of the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman who sat opposite to him. (The Attorney-General for Ireland). He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Depart ment, that no benefit could arise from keeping Ireland under military rule—" a house divided against itself cannot stand." Could they suppose that a people who showed their own self-command by the adoption of the temperance movement, were not entitled to equal rights, and a people who proved their love of peace and ' order when they met in hundreds of thousands without the slightest breach of the peace, and he should go farther and say even of good manners, were to be go verned by martial law? He called upon them to do justice to that country, which they had so long and so grossly misguided and neglected. If they did so, tran quillity would be restored, affection for the British con nexion would be increased—there would be a union of hearts—the condition of Ireland would be.permanently improved—the flag of commerce would once more float upon her coast—the palaces of the nobility would be converted from receptacles of mendieancy into abodes of luxury—and God would less the country an d th ose w h o had bettered the conditiM of her people.—(Cheers.) Mr. FERRAND began by saying he would demon strate to the House, even from the speeches of the leaders of the Irish agitation, that the Whigs were not so fit to govern Ireland as the Conservatives. He had felt it his duty last session to vote against the Govern ment on the Irish question, and he did so because they had not taken proper steps to put down this disgraceful agitation. Since then the majesty of the law had been vindicated, and the conspirators had been brought to conviction. During the whole speech of the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, his object seemed to be to bring the laws of this country into con tempt. What was the course pursued by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, when a convicted conspirator entered the House ?—(lronical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Op position.) Was he not cheered and welcomed by a small Republican party opposite.—(Laughter.) The Whigs had no power in that House, nor in the country. The Hon. and Learned Member for Cork seemed to be parti cularly well received by the Hon. Member for Montrose, who was himself proved to be carrying on a treasonable conspiracy with the Canadians—they were congenial spirits.—(Renewed laughter.) He had heard the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) lay a great stress upon the is suing of the proclamation by the present Government, though the Noble Lord did not deny but the meetings were of a dangerous tendency. How many proclama tions had Earl Grey's Government issued, of which the Noble Lord was a member? Upon reference to the newspapers of that date, he found that the Marquis of Anglesey, the then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, had issued a proclamation for the prevention of a procession of the Trades' Unions in Dublin. Only one clear day intervened between the day on which the proclamation was issued, and that on which the procession was to have taken place. The present Government had been earnestly called upon, by a large number of the peace able and respectable inhabitants of Ireland, to interfere. In the case of Lord Anglesey's proclamation, what did Mr. O'Connell do ? He advised the people to sub mit to the proclamation, but immediately established a new Club, or Association. A second proclamation was issued suppressing this new Association. What next ? Why, Mr. O'Connell and his adherents met in Holmes' hotel. A third proclamation was issued, and these meetings too were prevented. Another Associa tion was got up, and a fourth proclamation was issued, putting it down. Mr. O'Connell called these proclama tions Algerine Acts, and then public breakfasts were instituted for the same purpose, but these were disposed of by two magistrates. What did the agitators do next ? They declared they would not use -any exciseable ar ticles ; and, at a meeting of St. Thomas's parish, Mr. O'Connell and the Hon. and Learned Member for Dun garvon declared they would not use any exciseable ,ar ticles until these proclamations ‘a ere withdrawn. Mr. O'Connell said he would breakfast on bread and milk. —(A laugh.) He supposed the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon would address the House in the course of the debate. What did that Right Hon. Gentleman say at the meeting of St. Thomas's parish ? He said unless_ the union was repealed he would not pay rent or taxes. They might distrain, said the Right Hon. Gentleman, but who would buy? He would not tell any man at the meeting to follow his advice, but, said the Right Hon. Gentleman, " So help me God, if I don't do it I will swallow my silk gown." He (Mr. Ferrand) wondered if the Right Hon. Gentleman had paid the, annual fee for his silk gown. An Hort. ME3IBER—He has swallowed it.—(Great laughter.) Mr. FERRAND—In a few years after, notwithstand ing these vehement declarations, the Right Hon. Gen tleman accepted office, and acted in conjunction with those who had pledged themselves to resist repeal even to the sword.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Mr. O'Connell was, soon after the issuing of these pro clamations, arrested, and bound over to take his trial. The Whigs allowed the trial to drop, and he became their most strenuous supporter. Mr. O'Connell lately said he would prefer the Whigs to the Tories ; but what did he say during Lord Grey's Administration, in a proclamation, as he termed it, addressed to the people of Ireland in 1832, after the affair at Wallstown, to which the Gallant Officer opposite had alluded, in which he ' said the Whigs deserved to be impeached, and that more uman bloodd - had been shed in li-eland by them during the previous year and a half of Lord Grey's Govern ment than during the twenty years preceding of Tory rule? The history of Whig rule, he said, had been a history of blood. He said that Lord Strafford had not shed as much blood in Ireland as Lord Anglesey, and yet he had expiated his crime on the scaffold. After some further abuse of Mr. O'Connell, the Anti-Corn law League, and Lord Grey, the Hon. Member said that Mr. O'Connell had declared, in one of his procla mations, that Lord Grey was a childish old man, who entertained the most insane hatred against Ireland. He said that Lord Grey had only two ideas, that of hating and oppressing Ireland, and providing for his own family, who were a cruel infliction on this country. The Hon. Member then read a second time: the passage of Mr. O'Connell's letter to the people of Ireland, referring to Lord Grey, and applied it to Mr. O'Connell himself', who was a cruel infliction on his country, and had well provided for his own family—his principal object seemed to be to keep up fierce hatred between Protestants and Catholics, which, were it not for him, would have long since: subsided. Th e H on . Member then entered into a long defence of the Protestant Operative Association. That body had been censured for calling the Roman Catholic religion a false and idolatrous faith. Now he would ask what other assumption or belief did Parliament legislate upon than that the Roman Catholic religion was false and idolatrous?— (Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition benches.) He repeated the assertion, though Hon. Members might say " No, no." The Government was bound to support the Protestant religion, and to prevent the extension of idolatry. Now what was the Roman Catholic religion bnt idolatry ?—(Cries of "No, no.") Hon. Members might say no ; but he knew that the Government must support the Protestant religion, and that they could not, according to the principles of the Constitution, place the Catholic religion on an equality with it. The Noble Lord the Member for the City of London had lost the confidence of that House, and even of his former supporters. The present motion had completely pros trated him, and he (Mr. Ferrand) would give it his most unequivocal opposition. Commodore NAPIER said, that the Hon. Gentleman • who had just sat down had, us usual, talked about all things—Reform Bill, Repeal, Algerine Acts, and he wondered the Hon. Member had not touched upon the Keightley union.—(Laughter.) He did not think the Hon. Member was justified in saying Mr. O'Connell was selfish ; he had given up his lucrative practice in an honourable profession, of which he was a distin guished member ; he had sacrificed all his brilliant pro fessional prospects, and the immediate welfare of his family, in order to benefit his country.(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had spoken of Mr. O'Connell's abuse of the Whigs, but he had not mentioned his abuse of the present Government.—(Hear.) [At this moment Mr. Sheil walked across the floor of the House quickly, and took his seat beside Mr. Fer rand, who seemed somewhat surprised at the occurrence. A dialogue ensued, a portion of which was in a rather high tone of voice. The Hon. Member for Knares borough showed several documents to the Right Hon. Gentleman, and both Members left the house together.] I The GALLANT OFFICER continued—He could hardly blame the people of Ireland for their present agitation and excitethent. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) had declared in 1834, that Ireland was his chief difficulty and so it was in 1844, and the difficulty would exist as long as the Hon. Gentlemen opposite were filling those benches. 'He did not find fault with the present Government f . or putting do wn th e monster 1 meetings, and he thought it was wise in deferring doing so until they had a sufficient force to enforce authority. If they were determined to govern Ireland by force they must have their bayonets in readiness. The pensioners ought to be armed, if it was the intention of the Govern ment to follow up the course they had begun. The Government had acted most unwisely in bringing the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork to trial. What was gained by it ?—(Hear, hear.) If they sent hind to prison ' would that pacify Ireland 9 ( Hear, hoar.) He should think such a course might be dangerous ; and he (Sir C. Napier) was of opinion that the present Govern- nient would not hove sentence passed upon him, but would allow the judgment to hang over his bead. He hoped the House would not suppose for a moment that he meant to advocate the cause of repeal ; he was its most strenuous opponent, and every man in England would, he felt assured, take up arms, if it was necessary, to prevent its being carried into effect—(Hear, hear.) It would be throwing Ireland into the arms of France. But if O'Connell were sent to prison what would be the consequence ? Would not-lie still retain his influence over the priests ? Would not the priests exercise their power over their flocks ? The people of Ireland might remain passive, but what if they did not pay rent or taxes ? Thousands might been ejected for rent, but they could not eject millions. Then, in case of war with France or America, how would this country be situated ?—(Hear, hear.) He remembered the last war—when, even with our supe rior fleet, French vessels reached Ireland. Now there were war steamers, and with a disaffected people, it would be almost impossible to prevent France from making an impression upon Ireland. He did not believe that at the present moment the Irish were disloyal ; but if they were treated in the manner they had been, their loyal feelings would be entirely alienated.—(Hear. hear.) It might be said that it was imprudent to men tion those things, but was it not better to mention them in times of peace, when remedies could be applied than, than in time of war, when it would be too late.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the Noble Lord, the Member for the City of London, had made a very moderate speech, and he thought the proposal for doubling the grant to May nooth College very reasonable and very proper. He further agreed with the Noble Lord in thinking that the Catholic hierarchy ought to be acknowledged by their titles, and that Government should or d a i n th e mi nisters of hat Church. The Hon. Member's dislike to the Roman Catholics reminded him that he had been in Scotland some time ago on a visit with some friends of his. They were elderly ladies—(Laughter)—in short, they were old maids.—(Renewed laughter.) He asked them their opinions of the Catholics and the Episcopa lians, and they said it was impossible the Catholics could be saved, and even of the Episcopalians they had great doubts.—(A laugh.) He would read some lines from an old book, which he had copied for the purpose of reading to that House : " They cried the mass down, 'cause (they said) The priest in unknown language prayed. And yet themselves their prayer-book sent To such as knew not what it meant ; And it was read, and psalms were sung, And sermons preached in English tongue, Among wild Irish, when not one Knew what they said, but cried 0 hone !' ' 0 hone !' they cried, and shook their head With grief, to change their mass and bead For what they knew to be a prayer No more, poor souls ! than Banks his mare." (The Gallant Commodore proceeded to narrate an anecdote about Banks's mare and the six-and fourpenny stallion, amid the laughter of the House.) That was not so liberal as the Right Hon. Baronet, because he gave his bull for nothing.—(Roars of laugh ter.) He (Sir Charles Napier), however, did not think that such a bull would satisfy Ireland.—(Continued laughter.) The Noble Lord the Member for Sunder land had supposed the case of England being smaller than Ireland, and that Ireland had, with a large force, conquered England, and established in this country the Catholic religion. Now this was the position in which Ireland was now placed. There was no possibility of Ireland conquering England ; but he (Sir C. Napier) would suppose a case that was perfectly possible. Let them suppose that Bonaparte, when he had an enor mous army at Boulogne, of two or three hundred thou sand men, with an enormous flotilla, which, for some time, had bewildered our fleet in such a manner that, if the French Emperor had had a further force of forty six sail of the line, he could have proceeded up the Channel. Now let them, under these circumstances, sup pose that Napoleon had conquered England, and after wards that he had been unwise enough to have brought over with him French parsons, and that he had turned all the clergy out of their different livings, and the bishops out of their dioceses, and h a d di rec t e d the new clergy to preach in a language the people of this country did not understand—he (Sir C. Napier) asked whether this country, under these circumstances, would have remained long quiet?—(Hear, hear.) He thought they would not have been long before they had made some effort to drive the French out of England. So with the Irish. They were now attempting to drive the English parsons out of their country. The Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, in his speech, went further than the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir C. Napier) thought he was right in doing so.— (Cheers.) The Noble Lord, in the first place, wished the whole Protes tant Establishment of Ireland to be turned over to the Catholics. He (Sir C. Napier) could not go quite so far as that, but he quite concurred in another proposition of the Noble Lord, which was, that the Catholics shou'd have a portion of the proceeds of the Protestant Esta blishment, which, in point of fact, was the same propo sition as that which had been made by the Hon. Mem ber for Sheffield. The Noble - Lord proposed that the Catholics of Ireland•should have a portion of the tithes collected in that country, and he (Sir C. Napier) thought it was but a reasonable proposition, and ought to be en tertained. Another proposition with respect to this sub ject was, that the Establishment in Ireland should be abolished, and the proceeds- given for the purposes of education. Who would be injured if the Establishment in Ireland were abolished, and how great would be the benefit if the proceeds were given towards the education of all elasies of the community ? He, however, was afraid that the nation at large would not take this view of the case.—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial beaches.) They would not be prepared for it —(Hear, hear.) In order, therefore, to prepare them for it, the Government should make a beginning. The Government ought to show a willingness to do justice to the people of Ireland, and the nation would soon follow them.—(Hear, and cheers.) This was what they must come to at last. How was Catholic emancipation obtained ? It was a kind of " Thank you for nothing."—(Laughter.) It was re sisted as long as possible, and yet, at last, the Right Hon. Baronet—much to his credit, it was true—brought forward the measure ; but then it was only a " Thank you for nothing" affair.— (Laughter.) Justice for Ireland would be conceded, but not until it was taken, as Ca tholio emancipation had been taken, as a kind of " Thank you for nothing." The Church in Ireland, as at present constituted, could never be maintained. Sooner or later the Right Hon: Baronet must come for ward with some measure of conciliation, and the sooner he did so, the happier would he the people of the country, at large. Now he (Sir C. Napier) had a plan to pro pose, which was simply this—that whenever a living in Ireland became- vacant, instead of appointing another person, the proceeds of the living should go to the 'frea-ury, to be applied to the purposes of education. It was inconsistent with common sense that a parish in which the number of Protestailts was so few that the clergyman was obliged to preach to his clerk and two or three others—it was inconsistent with common sense that, under these circumstances, a clergyman should be appointed with a large salary. The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies had said that the Catholics would not accept a portion of the proceeds of the Pro testant Establishment, even if it were offered to them. Why, did not that show the greatest moderation on the part of the Catholics ? Did it not show that they did not wish to rob the Church at all ? But they at the same time wished to be placed in the same position as the Protestants. It had been said that the tithes in Ireland had been commuted, and that the land lords were the parties who paid the tithes. Who was it, he would ask, that paid the landlord ? Suppose the landlord had two farms on his estate ; one he let to a Protestant and the other to a Catholic tenant—the Pro testant had a church found for him, but the Catholic was obliged to pay for his.—(Elear, hear.) It was contrary to common sense to suppose that . the Catholic cou ld cope with his neighbour the Protestant. He (Sir C. Napier) would, just relate an anecdote bearing upon this subject. lie was going on the road to Cork, in a common fly, and he met a very decent-looking young lady— (Lau,;hter)—he saw that she was a decent and respec table-looking girl.—(Continued laughter.) This was no joke. He said to the young girl, " I suppose you are all the better now the tithes are commuted, and the proprietors pay all the tithes ?" She said, with the utmost naivete, " Do you see that man working? He has got a bit of garden for which he is obliged to pay tithes to the Protestant clergyman, who he thinks is sending his soul to the devil, and he is obliged to pay to the Ca tholic priests to prevent his going there."—(Laughter.) What did this show, but that the Catholic, in point of faith had to pay two tithes ? The Noble Lord, the Se cretary for the Colonies, in the course of his speech the other night, read in the most solemn manner, the oath which was taken by the Catholic Members of that House. He (Sir Charles Napier) could not help say ing, that this was an insult to the Catholic Members of that House.—(llear, hear.) The Noble Lord, after that, inquired, if it was proposed to send the Catholic Bishops into the House of Lords, because unless hey did, he said, there could be no. equalisation. His (Sir C. Napier's answer to that was, that he would send no. more Bishops into the House of Lords, because there were too many there already.—(Laughter.) He would not say whether he would wish to see those out who were in at present. He would ask the Noble Lord whether he would continue to pay a Protestant clergy: man a large salary, where there was no congregation ? Could there be a more unjust thing than that ? He looked upon the - idea as absurd. They had for the last 300 years been endeavouring to make all the people of Ireland Protestants, but they had not succeeded, and he thought that everybody must see that such an attempt could never succeed. Let the Right lion. Baronet and his colleagues come forward with some comprehensive measure with regard to Ire land. Much had been said about social rights in that country, but these were not the only rights they had to consider. There were others equally important. The people of this country would never believe that the Ro man Catholic religion was the true one. They had been taught by their parents to follow the Protestant religion as the only proper one. If then this was the case in England, let Hon. Members opposite show some liberality of opinion towards the Irish Catholics. They had been educated in their youth to look upon the Re man Catholic religion as the only true one, and it had been inculcated upon them as the most perfect one. These were his sentiments, and he hoped and trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet, and Hon. Gentlemen who, were with him, would get rid ere long of these prejus dices, and that ultimat e ly suc h measures would be adopted with respect to Ireland as would give satisfac tion to the country at large. Mr. GORE said that allusion had been made to the Church of Scotland, but he did not think that the omic.4 of the Scottish and Irish churches were pirallol Pf4SOS, Considering the anomalous miticin in Which the Church stood, it was their di t ty remove the inequality which deprived the Church of respect and power, and to render it what it ought to be—the source of religion and happi. ness to the people. If the Government were tg 4t44- duce meastu7es of such a, tendency, gi V Ilia .. :, _ - utmost endeav,urs to support them. lie ` thought thi!t the total redemp ion of tithes ought to-be -one oethe fir; measures upon ehich the Government ought to dete.. mine. Without undertaking to dictate to Goverruil what they should do, he would only say that he we e support them to the utmost c.d . his power, beelose hi , had the utmost confidence in them, and he would enfl tinue to give them his cordial and disinterested el-11'Fr; Mr. JOHN O'BRIEN said the time had arrived Iva' the Government could no longer temporise ; they Wei either concilia'e or subdue. The English Governm e , o o had hitherto rated Ireland as a subjugated people, who rendered it (the Government) powerful by their dissee: r sions. England had formed a union, w hi c h gave to an unwise domination, and neglected the °Oa', tunities of a wiser and more fruitful incorporatl but since that union ; England had kept, her s° in a state of cold and selfish isolation. For ce ll. tunes Ireland had been governed by the division of race'' and afterwards by the power which sectarian difference gave to her rulers. The union came, and Ireland Ir . united, but not incorporated with th e em pire. "tu at Catholics were partially emancipated, b u t th e y felt fe te freedom was not yet attained. Th e y ca ll e d for he destruction of those sectarian differences which for el . i , the most grevious part of their evils, and th e most fr ui t ful source of British power. The British Governintei; maintained the Church of an opulent minority at . expense of an impoverished and dissenti e nt major't fe All these grievances compelled four-fifths of the pe°,,P p i of Ireland to rally under the comprehensive watcliw"tbe of Repeal. But the Imperial Parliament had tbe power, if it had the will, to consi g n t o repose , e , awakened spiiit of nationality. The natio n al energioi were wasted in continual discussion, and the feeling s so domestic life were disturbed and irri ta t e d. The Itee l he Catholics were denounced as unfit to di sc harge rb t at ordinary functions of' free citizens.—(Hear, hear.) 1 1 then were the people of Ireland to look to ? The N e bers of the present Government were those ,5 who said that they had commenced emaneipatil the combined consideration of exp e di e ncy an c , timidation.—(Hear, and cheers.) What eve r weight ' lO pediency might have had with them he for one convinced that intimidation had the greater fore?•,, i; (Great cheers.) The Irish people were reproached conspiracy, but by measures of comprehensive recf[eei you can dissolve the combination.—(Ch e ers.) T LI o s were reproached with agitation, but Magna Cbarta b , carried by agitation. The Bill of Rights was carric a ,4 agitation. Trial by Jury was mai n tai n ed by agitan w , o The Presbyterian Church of Scotland was preserved, is agitation. The independence of th e I r i s h Pa r lianin t , I'B2 was obtained by agitation, and the emancipation e l rrh e Catholics was obtained by agitation.—(Cheers.) e Hon. Member concluded by respectrully calling tir ti ,i o o House to consummate the gre a t A c t o f E m ancipa i i i which was not yet completed—to carr y t o t h e ir coit e • the awakened spirit ot nationality—t o temper its e et '' siasm—and, if they would, to regulate its aberrations.to Mr. MONCK'ION MILNES having placed a e et on the books, on the subject of Ireland, and that 1 00 notice of his having merged in th e larger prensiat4 now before the House, he t rus t e d h e s h ou ld be "a °. he to make a few remarks. They. should be few, fe . f ac h promised the House he wa s no t go i ng t o g i ve the W - 0 he intended to have uttered had his own motion ° t o on.—(Laughter.) It was an unfortnnate thing t iof they never could get a discussion on Ireland in . ye ll House, which did not turn out to be of an excla, sl o bo party character.—(Hear, hear.) He w i s h e d the t y r e Lord the Member for London had not confounded 0 thing s—a criticism on the late trials, an d afterwe'd, of . essay on what ought to be the f u t ure governine' t eo Ireland. They had been favoured with speeches„e n ti O subjects which 'ought to have been kept w idely als Although the question of the late trials bore yell d, it on the question of the future gov ernmen t of Irelo i t l had unfortunately been introd uce d, an d h a d tainte d ; whole debate with a violent party spirit. It t oo matter they all knew, and all gri eve d a b o ut, thf l o of law was so little respected in Irel an d. B u t it ough t m , 0 to have happened to the N o bl e L or d t o b e ,a P art ed to, bring the law into still less re s pe c t, as h e had atm do, by the remarks he indulged in, when sPee lti- Pr, the recent prosecutions. He was rem i n d e d by the i , duct of the Noble Lord of t wo li nes i n a w er Dickens'.—(A laugh.) Against the Bishop plead the Church's c ause, And from the Judge's vindicate the laws. l edg e And so, when giving what was real l aw an d what ro l ere made law, the Noble Lord should - recollect that dti was hardly any case in which a person was found g o t , ' but what, according to his own opi n i on an d statelne it. was so found, not on the law, bitt.on some quibbl e 0 the —(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He must say f er i a Noble Lord, or for himself, neither of whom kne w „ ) ,,f° thing whatever about the ma tter—(G reat speak in the irreverent and disrespectful waY Lr,/ had been done of those trials was most imprer pe ri; (Hear, hear.) He should h ave t h oug h t t h at the el ti c hoe ence of office which Hon. G en tl emen opposite bltterlill might have taught th em the difficulties which ex,i';4o9 the way of a fair an d i mpart i al government of,' ; r ii t tbef They ought also t o k now t h at i f the measures whit recommended were attempted to be carried into ° oa t they would dest ro y G overnment after Govern wag They all knew that Cathode emancipation a in' t carried by a combination of parties, and eg o yle. the opinion and th e w i s h es o f t h e E ng lish P i ,,4 —(Hear, hear.) The same feeling which e ° sou prevented and th war t e d C at h o li c emancipati e , 11 0 1 10 existed, and any en d eavour at t h e presen t m orn depress the Protestant Church, or enlarge the C atb l ll would meet with the most determined opposifienitt the thought it, therefore, most impolitic and unwise fu h noo d course opened by th e N o bl e L or d (Russell), arldaf°,„ up to such an exte n t by th e ot h er Noble Lor d (.."- u - 'i l ier? and the Hon. Member f or Li s k ear d (M r . C. m t ro ' ocl„ should have been taken by them without a,,ses" "bleb fication of the Opinions of the-people of Englan d ' could only be managed by th e sma ll Pree e tit ae;! (Laughter)—which they all knew so well, and to 0 1 would be tidly in a Gov e rnm e nt t o p r opose fleY epo se; alterations as those susge4ed. If they were Pi r te they would not be adopted—th e y wou ld annihlgl oe Government.—CHear, hear.) M uc h bfaMe ye s - 051 the - people of England for this state of things"; ell, much more, than on the Government. Whatel'elf th were in Ireland were ow i ng to - ourse lves.. 001 priests were violent it was England ma de so, - by leaving them a p rey to every e a rer 6 excitement. We had made them as th e y iat es ; He shared this opinion with almost 'all the grea t s ea the men—(Laughter) —who . 'had ever administer 050'1 affairs ot this kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) Ther e ilel l ,,P i , doubt that such was the opinion of Mr. ritt. -- "i• r Although there remained no distinct record ° te a O l d had never heard .it doubted. It had been ass er en tiot i ty , and over agein in that House, and had been I' fr iell in , et - Mversation by Mr: Pitt's- most intimate _oopli% Mr. PH, believed that the union would never ac „d 01) its object as long as the Catholic clergy o f Ireln-W;[, left in their unregarded and degraded state• - loalw o f If a proof were wanted h e f oun d it i n the de eve eve l ie of the Roman Catholic bi s h o p s , ma d e on L , "`c a th e o f the union. At an assembly of the Roman Of fi e bishops, held on the 17th, IBth, and. i o n P I O January, 1799, they admitted th a t th e prov-i posed by the Government for the Roman tere d the clergy ought to be thankfully accepted ; 811 ,, p tip o f an interference by the Government with t This 110 ment of the bishops as would enable it to be s e , o. their loyalty was just and ought to be a greed c eee,!,p tha t e, same opinion was held by the very last of D o re to tion of remarkable men—L or d Bid mo uth• nr iest l o mouth made an offer to the R oman Catholic PO receive from George the Third a share of Minn;, donum at the time it was given to. the Presb}lt, voe ti o . the Presbyterians it was accepted, but f!;',, o ole e of Catholic clergy very properly declared that !' e ' c aas c ei considered as a bribe to detach them from tntostlio Catholic Emancipation. Under these ei rc they could not receive The s , a le i o f was held by Lord Grenville, and, c ., l4e „, r ` m itfr e f o rd reagh avowed it frequently. Ia the '• ki°:; e ntliolP 1825, when the question was brought proln i ions 01 0 0 ward, it was well known what were the opla t be O'Connell and Mr. Sheil on this subject ; e l i t gers:' not detain them on this point—they Was ra i i ich g r ,; they might all read for themselves, and th e lergJ had ever denied. In 1826, Lord Brou' 113 _ 1 , 1 ;:lic Brougham, in reference to the RomatiCaL pro/losl in Ireland, expressed himself in favour of f% l to oe proposed the year before in 1825; a resolut a l io ritYivat effect was passed in that House by . a larg a e_, lll oth er ife 4 did not intend to bring this question in h e ;V distinctly and immediately before the 11 0 be pith only declaring what he believed t o ' O .O sole, and single, and' true line of bet.t,ie'; they could get for the purpose , to prei e - a i the condition of Ireland. He never intends " io s c oo f ; indeed, it would be an insult to do so—t°,:g,, e id h e money to the Catholic clergy, because i t s a bribeblit ha sidered now, as it was considered then ~.e rea ; was a thing impossible—it could not be e e o ben, would tell them what he thought could COu and he had no doubt the House would 9 g r _fol ;le ti° on this point a t l eas t. Th e Ministers scent th t " be o . here in the r i g ht wa y. Th e y had "done Roman Catholic clergy would accept In nts ' t hatr oe> " every means of possessing the endowine be left to them by persons of their owe . , P ve ry 0 (Hear, and a laugh.) That was. of course earn line et th (Laughter.) But he would take it as an eT el i n g;4 oo , e , ' . he would take it as an earnest of the good id ti) ,l, o f Government in this matter; he hoped it w° ,oilit rael:,,,, t 7 5; up by some such measure as the Commission to inquire into the state 01 11 y i n g, u i'l l ov j tholic chapels in Ireland, with a vievy. 0 g T ina Jn. of public money for the purpose of r,teilinefereiY in rest and now desecrated by misery d and which had every right in the war hoped . t , o s tlt_,. t it decorous state for public worehit }leo the Wig. ,%ei.'itt;„, the invidious distinction, with respecti t e awa y rf prelates of that Church, might h e o i d a i l d, att a ti; be pe of (Hear, hear).---for, believing as be h oliev e ,,lle4 member of the Church of England must the ~ 1 , 1 1 0 1th feet right of those prelates to assl l : ll ... 'v eentl ect e l " t bc, bishops and archbishops, though not „sou' the sees, as any of our prelates had . L . % he thought it would he fbolish and ! iou btfu', o pe e tion if they left that matte: any loliker o Sf e elinli ce ' aa er them proceed by degrees to establish ago 0(4 ._e 1; 0 0 land—let them do it by degrees , , ecau se % t o; e $ he did not wish to do it at once, but n tilis , ti a l Y ci what was the feeling of the people of au d P re i s l o , l ' e s the attbjeet. He knew that their feelinqs o f see, v dic were connected with the best princif. (o ., pre.1 100 0! rhea hei r ~no religious liberty in this country. : were c 50 . 0 .04 against the Roman Catholic e" s ee e' which came dins to them from the t l _,Z e eli e t he perk;ecution ank.t -Protestants, and the ev that lan emhoics were at this titne r r l fo re l i' d f ee l ` Harty of the intolerance and bigotry th%,ions „ a o otts It was only by sl ow d egrees the: sueh e P t . less ins could be era dicated, And oh , t otter s+ p g b .. 00 it to be to them to VA' tolerant in the . se_ ipt they sax how deeply such intolerance 11, 1 __1" w i ik t . t e 0 0 0 §llll . Nto the hearts of the English pe g eF, l % 090; 1 0 11 ought it to be to all. sides to do nothing tr wo olc rage intolerance, when the saw Oat ' the insisting upon the presenie of the traversers in the Court during the whole of the proceedings.—(Hear, hear.) These* were all extraordinary and vexatious proceedings—(Cheers)—but they were matters personal to the Attorney-General.—(Cheers.) But why was the list of witnesses on the back of the indictment not furnished to the traversers ?—(Hear, hear.) It was essential to the defence that they should be furnished with the list, and he would ask the • Attorney-General for England, if in the whole course of his professional experience he - had ever known an instance in which the list of witnesses had been refused ?—(Hear, hear.) He would ask the At torney-General if he would, under similar circum stances, have refused the list ? Then the application for a copy of the jury list, which was equally necessary to the traversers, in order to prepare their challenges was alsorefused.—(Hear, hear.) The sheriff had trans mitted that list to the Home-office, and had offered to furnish a copy to the de fendants if the Attorney-General would consent, but that consent had been withheld.—(Hear, hear.) What reason could they have had for such refusal ? Was it not to be presumed that they were acting, under the in structions of the Government ? The production of those documents were essential for the defence of the traversers on their trial, and yet these documents had been refused. Then, with regard to striking off the names from the jury -list, how had they proceeded ? It was said that eight of those who were struck off were repealers. He took that statement as it was made, but there were still four others who were to be accounted for—two Roman Catholics and two liberal Protestants. He should like to know why it was they were struck off. The Government, by the proceedings which they adopted, succeeded in keeping twelve 'men on the jury who combined the three-fold elements of _ being Protes tants, Anti-Repealers, and Conservatives. With regard to the omission of the names from the general list, though it might have happened through accident that they were left out in the first in stance, the Government took care to avail them selves of the error, and they forced on a trial with an in complete hiry list. It was a maxim of law, according to Lord Bacon; that if a man found a door open and en tered, and having purloined something broke out through a different way, he was guilty of burglary. It was in a similar way Government acted in those trials. They obtained a jury according to their own wish, and obtained a conviction, but it was one not likely to be much respected.—(Cheers.) It was a conviction which he hesitated not to say, was a false conviction— (Cheers)—and would be followed by no moral results. And if no moral results followed from it, what practical results would follow from it. The Right Honourable Gentleman told them of one practical result which had already followed, namely, that peace was restored to Ireland. But he was not aware that the peace of Ireland had ever been broken.— (Cheers.) It was a peace like a sort of smothered rebel lion.—(Hear, hear.) As the Noble Lord said, they held Ireland by military occupation. They held her in peace as long as there was peace in Europe —(Hear, hear)—as long as they were in a state of quiescence ; but the moment a move was made, the moment a shot was fired, they would fall in pieces.—(Cheers.) If they continued their present policy to Ireland, they must play the coward at home, and truckle to France and America.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet did not read aright the the spirit which now prevailed in Ireland. He would do well to' onsider that spirit. It was a spirit which had before now been seen in England and Scotland. It was a spirit similar to that with which Scotchmen secured the independence of their country ; it was a spirit like that which Lord Chatham said he rejoiced to see in America ; and let him tell the Right Honourable Baronet it was a spirit which great men sympathised with, which good men inculcated—a spirit which the boldest and the wisest statesman would do well to consider, and which the boldest Minister might not be ashamed to tremble at. Notwithstanding, the vaunting of the Right Honourable Baronet, there tt as no man in the whole empire at this moment who had so much cause for alarm as he had. To whom had the Right Honourable Baronet delegated the govern ment of Ireland ? They were told by the Right Hon. Baronet the other night of the commotion which was created in the Home-office by the Clontarf procla mation. They were told that an attempt had been made to wrest by force the executive from the hands of the Government. They were told that on that occa sion the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the Lord Chancellor, and the Attorney and Solicitor-General were sum moned to the Home-office, and that they remained four clays in debate. The only man who was not sum moned to that. important Council, was the . Prime Minister of England. (Some observations were passed across the table, which did not reach the gallery.) He must say that he saw many causes of alarm in the present state of affairs in Ireland, and these causes of alarm were not at all lessened by the manner in which they were treated by the Govern ment. It seemed to him to be a case on which no per son could reflect seriously without alarm. He did not mean to enter into any of those questions connected with Ireland which were not fit subjects of inquiry. He would only say on that occasion that he thought, among the many causes of complaint which the Irish people had, one of the greatest, as well as the most frequently urged, was the want of sym pathy among English Members for Irish grievances. Every evil which had ever been felt by Ireland was in some degree owinc , either to English bigotry or English dislike. We had hitherto denied all the claims of justice, till now—justice and self-interest were combined. This was no longer an Irish question.. He believed that if the prosecution which had recently been conducted in Ireland had been conducted in the same manner against the Chartists, there would have been a sensation from one end of England to the other, and the business of that House would have been stopped until the injustice had been redressed. The course of justice should be as dear to them on Irish as on English soil.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the unity and integrity of the empire were at stake. The eyes of Europe were upon them. He would read to the House the opinion of a writer, whose authority on such subjects stood ex ceedingly high. The Honourable Member then read an extract from an author, whose name was inaudible, in which, after a statement of the position of Ireland, it was said that, unless in time England permitted some small inroads to be made upon her tyranny, the result would be fatal to English greatness. Such was the opinion of a writer, who was as - impartial as be was enlightened, and he hoped that the warning this given would not be heard in vain. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said that, as an Irish pro prietor, taking a very deep interest in the welfare of that country, he must express his regret at the tone and manner in which this question had been sub. mitted.—(Cr;es of " Hear, hear.") He did hope, when he saw the announcement of this motion in the paper, proceeding, as it did from a Noble Lord, for whose statesmanlike qualities no man in that House entertained more sincere respect than himself, that Ireland would not again be made the battle field of party.—(Hear, hear.) If he had conceived that the course proposed by the Noble Lord was calculated to benefit Ireland, no party ties or personal predilections would have prevented him from stating the opinions which he entertained.—(Hear, hear.) Now, before he proceeded further he thought he might con gratulate gentlemen on that side of the House that the charges on which the Government bad been arraigned were admitted to be unfounded.— (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for Sun derland, with that abstinence of party spirit which characterised him, admitted that they had not been established ; and the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Devonport, had also acquitted the Government. But he found that, in the speech of the Noble Lord there was a sentence which showed that, even in the Noble Lord's opinion, in the circumstances in which Ireland was placed, it was necessary that something should be done to assert the majesty of the law.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that was a great admission, coming from a party which inculpated the Government, and had not when in power made itself very remarkable for its power of enforcing the majesty of the law.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord had proceeded to attack the Govern ment for their conduct in the disposition of their patron age. Now he (Mr. II.) must admit that there was no great enthusiasm in Ireland in favour of the Govern ment.—(Laughter.) But they must look to what was the nature of popularity in Ireland. There was nothing easier for a Government than to attain popularity in Ireland. They had only to throw themselves unreservedly into the hands of one or other of the extreme parties, and they would be sup ported by the shouts of exultation on the one side, and by the silence of terror on the other. Such popularity was inconsistent with his notion of an impartial Government.—(Hear, hear.) The Government of Lord Normanby had no pretensions to the title of impartial.—(Tory cheers.) That Government obtained popularity by giving up everything to one party solely and exclusively.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) He would now come to the question of the Noble Lord's proposition. The motion of the Noble Lord was in itself very large and comprehensive, but the suggestions which he threw out for the amelioration of the grievances to be inquired into were exceedingly small. All that he proposed to do was to make a new appropriation of the revenues of the Church, and what the Noble Lord considered a more. impartial distribution of the: Patronage of the Crown. The Noble Lord acknowledged that his hopes for the pacification of Ireland, as far as they depended on his measures, were unfounded, as he 'admitted those mea sures to be impossible. Now he (Mr. S. Herbert) en tertained an ~opinion that the 'Roman Catholic clergy ought to-be endowed. Ile entertained that opinion, because he was anxious to see them placed in a situation above the necessity of taking part in politgal agitation. He believed that in many parts of Ireland where an indisposition had been mani fested on the part of the priests to join political agita tion, it had been difficult for them to obtain their dues. He believed that the people, had themselves protested against the amount of those dues, and the necessity of political agitation had been superadded to religious in fluence, in order to obtain them. This was a lamentable thing, as the Catholic religion was one always allied with the maintenance of peace and order. Again, he wished to see the clergy taken from a higher class of men than those who were now found in it. The Noble Lord had said it was better that they should be taken from the lower order of society, but he differed from that opinion when he saw the little respect paid to the clergy when they were of a rank only a little above the peasantry. After all, the Government proposed much more than the Noble Lord opposite they proposed a more comprehensive plan and greater changes. He did not include, of course, the pro p als of those gentlemen who supp orted the Noble Lord. A s ere was one point—he meant education—to which almost more than any other conceivable means he looked for the amelioration of the condition of the Irish people. The Irish peasant came over to this country in the harvest, where he saw men of his condition enjoy all the comforts and happiness of a highly civilized nation, and he went back to Ireland at the close of the harvest time with no feelings of dissa tisfaction, for the Irish peasantry, above all others, were remarkable for their gratitude ; but he went back to Ireland an unchanged man, without exhibiting any desire to adopt the improvements and the advantages of those which he had witnessed in England. To what could that be attributed but to the want of education. He would recommend the adoption of measures to put an end to that state of things, and he would have the Protestant and the Roman Catholic of Ireland put upon a footing of the most perfect equality. It was by such means they would ultimately effect the amelioration of the condition of that unhappy country. He did not think, as some others seemed to be of opinion, that nothing would satisfy the Roman Catholics but the spolia tion of the Church- Establishment. That Esta blishment did' not press upon the Roman Catholics for it was supported chiefly by the Protestant landlords. There was another point to which he wished to refer. It appeared to him that of all the symptoms he had seen since he had the honour of a seat in that House, from which he could augur a better state of things for Ireland, it was the tone they had adopted in the present debate—he meant the tone of kindness and good feeling in which every Hon. Gentleman who had spoken on that side of the House had referred to his Roman Catholic fellow countrymen. He believed he spoke their senti ments, as well as he did his own, when he said they were willing and anxious earnestly, and at once, to co-operate in effecting the improvement and amelioration of their common country. He made these observations by reason of the interest he took in the subject; and looking with anxiety to the proposal which the Government meant to make, he was prepared to give their measures not the equivocal assent or lukewarm vote of one in office, but conscientiously to give them his warm, earnest, and hearty, approbation. Mr. SMYTHE said that he rose for the purpose of explaining a sentiment in a speech which be made last year. It had been said that he wished to see Ireland governed in the spirit of O'Connell. Such a sentiment was never expressed by him. He said the very reverse. What he said was, that while he disliked both extremes, he preferred seeing Ireland governed in the spirit of O'Connell, rather than that of Cromwell ; but he disliked both extremes—persecution and prosecution on one hand, and undue truckling to the Roman Catholics on the other, He could not give his vote on this occasion without ex pressing a hope that the Government would come for ward with some well-timed measures—such as the settling of the relations between landlord and tenant, which, if brought forward in a spirit like that which animated the concluding remarks of the Lion. Gentleman who had just sat down, would renew the link which should subsist between the people of Ireland and the Conservative party. He hoped the Go vernment intended to move and bring forward this and other measures, and if they did so he did not despair of seeing the Irish people once more looking to them for sympathy, and not prepossessed against them. Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said that the Catholics of Ireland were satisfied with their priesthood, whom they loved and revered, and who were worthy of their love and reverence.—(Hear, hear.) He challenged them to show any priesthood so pure in every act, so devoted to their religious duties, such admirable ministers of religion. The Hon. Gentleman said that the Catholic religion was a monarchical religion. In his opinion, it would be more correct to designate the reli gion to which the Hon. Gentleman belonged as a mo narchical religion, because the Sovereign was at the head of it. They accounted it one of the proofs of the divine origin of their religion, that it perfectly adapted itself to every phase and state of society which existed. It was under the fostering care of that religion that Belgium was working out a spirit of rational liberty, and they looked to it as the religion which would supply the elements of order against the wild outpouring of irregular liberty in North America. It was that religion which restrain ed the people of Ireland under excitement, and enabled them patiently to bear distress and poverty. It was that religion which instilled into the people those sentiments of liberty - which he trusted would ere long have fruit in the prosperity and legislative independence of the country. He had not risen with the intention of answering the Hon. Gentleman on the other side. He had risen as one of those who in an early part of the debate had been styled convicted conspirators.—(Cheers.) He did not acknowledge the justice of that designation unless it could be considered as a conspiracy for men to labour to their utmost to discharge the duty which they owed to their country—(Cheers)— which was the next in importance to that which they owed to their God.—(Loud cheers.) As one of those convicted conspirators, he rose to speak, perhaps, his last words in that House—to make his parting declara tion before he returned to Ireland, to meet and to incur the vengeance of the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—(Cheers.) He said to incur their vengeance, for he should continue to exert him self with as little ability perhaps, but with more ar dour and zeal than ever, to incur their vengeance, by exerting himself 'in the cause of his country.—(Cheers.) He did not rise for the purpose of offering any apology, or urging anything in palliation of that for which he, amongst others, had had the honour of having been con victed. If he urged anything on that point, it would only be to call upon every man in Ireland, who had not yet joined the repeal movement, to act as he (Mr. J. O'Connell) and his companions had done—(Cheers)---- to devote their liberty, their property, and if necessary their lives, as he and his companions had done and were ready to do—to restore legislative independence to their country, which was her inalienable right. He would ask the people of England what after all had been secured by the course which Ministers were pursuing? What had they gained by their victory?—(Cheers.) Had the cause of the repeal of the union received a check 2—(Cheers.) On the contrary he firmly believed that two or three years of the most active agitation could not have given that cause the firm hold on the minds of the people which that prosecution had given it. —(Loud cheers.) They had not by that prosecution strengthened the connexion between the two countries. He believed that if the connexion between the two countries were based upon firm and equitable principles, and the people were placed upon a perfect equality, it would tend to the prosperity and welfare of both.— (Cheers.) He spoke not from any personal considera tions. If he spoke from any personal considerations, he should ask that the heavier weight of punishment should fall 'upon him who was young and better able to bear it, than upon one who was not so well able to bear it on account of his years, and his immense labours in the cause of his country.—(Loud cheers.) But as a friend to the connexion between the two countries, he regretted the course which the Government had pursued, as tending to weaken that connexion. The people of Ireland had been taught last year, in that House, that they had nothing to hope, either from the Government or from the House. They had been in formed, not by one who spoke merely as an individual Member of Parliament, but by the Right Hon. Gentle man the Secretary of State for the Home Department, —(Loud cheers)—that concession was at an end in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) What course did the people of Ireland pursue in answer to that insulting declara tion ? Did they have recourse to violence? No.— (Loud cheers.) They betook themselves to constitutional agitation.--(Cheers.) They attended what had been ,called multitudinous meetings, at which might be seen hundreds of thousands of poor men, sweating under a sense of their wrongs—(Hear, hear)—ground to the earth by the tyranny of their landlords—(Hear, hear) —but one degree removed from absolute want—(Hear, hear)—meeting peacefully, legally, and constitutionally —(Cheers)—to listen to the advice of those who told them to avoid every breach of the laws of God or man —(Loud cheers)—to commit no violence, but to trust to the powers of the Constitution, and to the efforts which were made, peacefully and lawfully, to obtain redress.— (Cheers.) The good order which had been maintained at those meetings had been confessed by all. A high authority in Ireland had said, that those meetings must inevitably tend to outrage. Forty of those meetings had been held, and no outrage had been committed, ex cepting the destruction of a gingerbread stall, if that could be so denominated. Not a single accident had happened.—(Hear, hear.) Females had mixed in those meetings unhurt.—(Hear.) He had himself seen the Hon. Member for Cork dragged up the hill of Tara by the efforts of the people, rather than by those of the horses of his carriage ; and there were young mothers there, who were as safe and as kindly treated as if they had been by their own firesides. It had been asked in that House why, instead of resorting to those meetings, they had not come to Parliament ? What hope could they have from Parliament, when they had been told that concession had reached its limits ?—(Cheers.) But an Hon. Member had appealed to the House for them.— (Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Limerick, one whom he was proud to call his friend, because he had showed, and was showing, himself the true friend of his oppressed, fallen countrymen, had made an appeal to that House.— (Cheers.) And what had been their answer ?—(Hear, hear.) He had asked merely for inquiry ; that inquiry had been refused by an overwhelming majority— (Hear) —and that majority had been taunted by their base and infamous press, because they had extended to his Hon. Friend the common courtesy which was due to every gentleman, of listening to him.—( Loud cheers.) What had been the course which they had pursued in Ireland ? They had allowed those meetings to go on, and when the eleventh hour had nearly elapsed, then came out the proclamation against the meeting at Clontarf. With respect to that proclamation he found it difficult to speak with anything like temper, even after this space of time had elapsed. At the time of the occurrence he certainly thought that those who originated that proclamation were murderers in intention. Since that time he had laboured, and he hoped, not unsuccessfully, to abandon altogether the belief that, among Christian men, there could be found those who could entertain so fiendish an intention. But if they had intended to cause a massacre at Clontarf, they could not have gone a better way about it. The Right lion. Secretary of State had said that that proclamation was posted up at three o'clock in the afternoon. He had no doubt that the Right Hon. Baronet believed such to be the fact, but he had been grossly misinformed. That proclamation was not in the hands of the Lord Mayor of Dublin till four o'clock, and it was not posted in the village of Blackrock, near which he resided, till it was too dark for it to be read.- -(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") The late Mr. Tyrrell lost his life in consequence of the late hour at which the proclamation reached his parish, which was in the vicinity of the place of meeting. He was obliged to leave his bed—to expose himself to the weather, and contracted the mortal dis ease, of which he died, in endeavouring to save his parishioners from the hazard which they would other wise have incurred. In spite of all their efforts an enormous crowd did assemble at Clontarf, though, of course, it was much less than it would have been. It bad been said by the Noble Lord opposite that Mr. the co l the ka th th c ter 1 4( Ott • C ti