The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-15 00:00:00

'Pon tithe 4••••••••••*.-- «rap+, pe s guilt or innocence of the contend b th . It was first i n t ro d uce d in the sth cen :e4cy o ,e Burgu n di ans, i n or d er t o supp l y th e de *.tindic'estl2e law. The courts of law, which were . 1111 it th e "Yuriarum,provided remedies for offences h eno Person and against property, but where a , te ly " 1 was attacked no remedy was provided. l ki ghtb e ere a thousand ways in which a man's honour 1 414 end.hnpugned that he could not sit tamely h hie th e use the imp u t a ti on s cast upon him for (l otie la* ong•ht to provide a remedy, but it had ' *? raet . s °• There were codes of honour regulating e e of duelling but it was evidently an ab ,iiti)ttl'eftetitiee, for it Made no distinction between ;t4 pr cast ridicule Ile was aware that some per establristicdulienolacnoyurts of honour, but they of countries, and were found `'lvantage. In the army of the Emperor of n ° officer could fight a duel without having a court of honour; and in former times natu re, there was a tribunal of a somewhat 4, ks , nature, namely the court of chivalry. Judge `°/le said that duelling would not be put an end a l %le °N oe . means was devised which would, in the 1 , 1 to wh i etY, give an injured person equal repent krfora. at a recourse to d ue lli ng was now su pp ose d deb h He tho ug ht th a t if a court like that to :11pli sh e had all u d e d were es t a bli s h e d it would ac b t his object. The nature of every quarrel : 1 14 de b rought before such a court, and the judges ra w hp such an apology for the insult offered 1 • ev ref * o ° . ald deem adequate ; and if the offending s ed to make the apology, the facts would be It and the injured individual would e q n b ., righted in public opinion.—(Hear.) 'ernment aro really anxious to put an end ,!eff,, e ,"B', he believed that means could be devised 7s, tr o ; 11 1 1 . 1f that object. He would suggest the ap- At t d of a court of honour; a jury might be f ' 4 )4 to who were as nearly equal as possible in sta ,,N t i he Parties concerned, and who would there ''lti,s4a.°le to decide in a satisfactory manner upon Si r ilen brought before them. 14 t, th e t rEEL said the Hon. Gentleman proposed 1. ,°, 11 5e should pass a resolution declaring k.'sgt int o is immoral in its tendency, that it tg contempt the laws of the country, is con -1• 1 0 „,Jivine command, and ought to be abolished." o ' f i' l . that the House would pause before it dealt i;'!,ki a a j e es by means of resolutions.—(Hear, hear.) i ) T•l e w i l 'angerous precedent for them to establish to 'itte at was or was not in conformity with the 4 c ° 4l rn d c ore .— (Hear, hear.) It was an easy I"ek es Pendious way of dealing with criminal T • Ett lon heir proper province was to prohibit by t ed that which they thought ought to be pro 41deo,:oand it was a dangerous example to establish • n Il e's by resolution that which. in their judg '4ol : 4i ght to be e sed —(llear hear.) If th oh o ., suppr, s . ,„, 4 9 w n ,, - us Were not effectual for their purpose, if Zva r ,'"`e Practically disregarded, and they had no carrying them into effect, the passing of ni s i "Id not but tend to lower their character as a tCattlr titt qliti o e• Let them suppose that they passed this ,) T n . How were they to enforce it ?—(Hear, ,7a trvn 'n , the case of officers in the public employ,. ,liti, e ‘hts of the Crown, it might be possible to ZPtiq t , s ome influence; but how very small a pro- ZINO' society was amenable to this species of M t* The great mass of men would rfectly th lk, tb d by a resolution, and if they failedn their . Out i " e Y would not only establish a noxious pre. oe undertaking to determine by resolution what re not an offence in law, and, above all, what re gLrary to the Divine command ; but they would t k liikt k , P r actical proof that their authority was inef- Oref o Z(Hear hear.) Upon this general ground, • of applicable not only to duelling but to offi "htotneterY description, he deprecated the denounc ',Certain acts by resolutions of that House. But 4 tio b /14 * Gentleman who had proposed the reso ili said it was his intention to bring in 3 ° 4 _,,his subje c t. If he contemplated the pos. ul dealing effectually with this offence by ti''s of f "lif or , an enactment, why did he preface his mo iteave to bring in a Bill by a resolution ? Ai l lo t • ' io "ear.) If legislation could be. effectual, the 11 was unnecessary.—(Hear, hear.) If the Pl'ot t e ntlernan, having passed his resolution, should at al sa • e „to legislate, and should fail in legislating tatl i Y, he thought his resolution would stand in • er i awkward position, through his being unable htl e kr o ffe et to it by any substantive enactment.— ai d 'ear.) Taking either alternative, therefore, ft ,. not see what they could gain by pus :4111'111 resolution. Having made these re 'e must say that lie thought the mat ,ls4, 4,; °no deserving of the most serious.considera 'itt Vld that if any remedy could be applied, it t it - t e te e_i? . ty of that House to give the subject their li ttltk ni _otion.—(Hear, hear. And . if the Hon. huh would, upon a future night, submit to 41k plans with respect to legislation in the 1 41 litt Rn°,,..` a Bill, he would undertake to say that no ,"ent should b e offered to its introduction, t k s,,e roust of course reserve to himself the full „- p lea , l of forming an opinion as to the policy. of wh ich /pre which might be proposed. The speech 'flich °o. Gentleman had not diminished the doubts (4, a e entertained as to the probability of success. 'P,,scto l :' hear.) He had only shadowed forth the p s 4 which he thought might be effectual. t`Pit a r,.,‘ was a law providing that in no case should W° p e rilishment attach to duelling, excepting where jbsal, fought without seconds. Now that pro ,:cirkl'"'Y deepened the impression whiCh he enter - " 11 N3 4's to the extreme difficulty of dealing with sub -012.) this nature by means of legislation.—(Hear, 'e was very much afraid of adopting . any " which should appear to give a sanction to g' , ,,, x however it might be conducted.—(Hear, Zist, •L_ the good sense and the moral feeling of "'fin opposed to duelling—if there were a ~oaidtiofl of the practice—he was afraid lest they of ene Lscoi et °lirage by legislation that which the tone li'Dp os e Y was practically prohibiting.—(Hear, hear.) they were to pass the law to which the 4 kl en 4 l a re eman had referred—suppose they were to ' that if in the heat of excitement, if in a mo 'llo irritation, • pistols being within reach, parties 444, • fight a duel, they should be liable to punish "hilst those who went home, deliberately, se•• 'l"steri,tkeir seconds, and fought according to ve ld usages should be excused, it would b tit Y difficult to pass such a law with -1,444tie11e-luing .to lend an implied sanction to the t k t o of duelling, when conducted' accord t, established rule.—(Hear, hear.) Cer e'vea ' 4 ' Policy and the principles of English law to ts Nv with comparative indulgence the man who ~n I Y to the influence of passion. Take the case ,ht 7 t :l t t eh, l3 Yron and Mr. Charlton, who retired im qt without seconds, in consequence of a dis- Co mmitted law w o u ld view with more toleration an Cjat e "rnitted in the heat of passion, than the de re 14 -f th' e PPeal to seconds, and a duel fought, after wait ,thettit h daYs, according to rule. The tone of society I t 9 N ve " v e great influence in this matter ; but when Oa „ zee re dealing on such a subject by legislation, kk e edingly difficult to enact that, under cer •Lonstances, favour should be shown, without 4'l' 4 of t : 4- to imply an opinion that the practice under .pcat; hhinstances, was entitled to indulgence.— e t of p ea r-) The very mention of seconds in. the 1111,4 o rnament must have that effect. An Act of E Z, I lt on the subject must be drawn up techni n' construed literally ; and to use such words ia ett e t ".Pal and seconds in the manner that he eh ' c 'hed would have an opposite effect to that tiZtitq l intended. Now there was another sug :ktightlnade by the Hon. Gentleman, to which he k t Or op a ll solvent men would object.—(Laughter.) (Ch o oi ed that if a man fell in a duel the surviving t itl ,kigh t s ' should be liable to pay his debts.— th Nr 4 b e i l. .) Now that proposal was certainly more to e to th e . man w h o was ex t ens ively in debt th : th re cri ~,..t h e man who had no debts to discharge. r d to another motive for duelling, he thought /n hn \ \lts now almost at an end. The most pesti it in society was the man who attempted th e ery r eputation by duelling—(Hear, hear)—and I kr, "en happ ene d th a t thi s man was, in truth, )I`t this 4teSt °id Coward. He thought society would now A th e , '.'ass of persons with contempt, rather than qatty ;` 1 : 1 n- admiration. If; however, they said that 11 h e '',€' lll d be liable to pay the debts of the person ad slaughtered, all he could say was that 4 4 1 114 taTanted to establish a reputation by duelling care to select as his antagonist a man \h„ tit kur a ,Perfectly solvent. When the Honourable it lik„; mentioned this as an enactment which yid to be effectual, he must say that I , e , ll cy :. ) Tt increase his confidence in the ef tt, Nztm, l egislation. Now these were the only q tl Nt, d 7ents which the Hon. Gentleman had ec ui ,tiet/ lati With respect to the proposal of the. Hon. tre e - , t . (I 'f "ho spoke last-the establishment of a Itit " r--he was afraid that there would be !,10,astit,_adies giving any legislative sanction to 44 % 4 of that description. It might be a false r,asib i ° flour, but he thought they would find it t Pa ra ' e t° e ti on induce gentlemen to seek by such means As.,"ts. for an offence which had wounded their off er to th e thought it would be much better to ap- S u re d tl: o h .onourable feelings of the man who had na te eot i t ktence than to any other parties. He of 50 ,.!vas much more probable, in the present u keet le „t3r, that if an offence had been offered in °' heat the p t offering it wouldyield to 114 -ve tit .o 11 , 4 it th e n a e d e init . tha - t ar h y e was wrong, in o y rder to t aN i babie settlement essit of any further appeal, than that y of the dispute would be se l'/O he aPPeal to a court of honour. In ancient leh 141 cs app eals eyed there were courts of chivalry to ofdttrt ai _ of this nature. wore made ; but in those a tie el _ wh". legulations were enacted for the conduct a lth 'eh were afterwards abo3ished—(Hear)— t 'her °u gh a „ratl sf Pe l l heoourt" of honour was recognised at did not think that it could be 17 4 1 ei tZ ed to '' on toPrey th. own times, and he was very much Pri)vant 6 -4 amicable settlement which he r anking xi rjiotioa did believe, with men of true courage and true honour, would always be preferred to duelling. But how were they to enforce the authority of such a court ? —(Hear, hear.) Suppose the offence to have been the greatest which a man can receive, the offence of threatening, such as the holding of a whip in a me nacing position. No one would deny that this was wounding to the feelings, and that it was intended to be so. Well, an appeal is made to the court of ho nour, and the court says to the party, " the insult was unmerited, and you must make some reparation." But suppose the man who offered , the. offence refuses to make reparation, how will you proceed in the case? (Hear, hear.) By imprisonment or fine?—(Hear, hear.) It will be necessary to provide very minute regulations for the purpose of enabling the tribunal to enforce its authority; and, after all, if the party does not submit to it, what reparation is there for wounded feelings ?—(Hear, hear.). He was very much afraid that a tribunal of this description would be wholly ineffectual. Now, he must say that her Ma jesty's Government, believing that the tendency of society was adverse to duelling, believing that it was on the decline, and that the juries by whom the law was to be executed would execute it in a very different spirit from that which had hitherto characterised them ; believing that any law which they might pass on the subject would be ineffectual, unless they provided some means of procuring evidence which did not now exist, did not think it advisable in the present state of things to introduce any legislative measure upon this subject. The House must recol lect that the offence of duelling was an offence com mitted by a man who, in vindication of his honour, was already prepared to act in defiance of the law. He did violate the law of God ; he did risk his own life. They were told to make the punishment • trans portation. He did not think that the fear of convic tion ever deterred a party -from appealing to the laws of honour.—(Hear.) Nor did he think that the fear of transportation would be more effectual. There was not, as yet, such a change of public opinion on the subject as would prevent the party convicted from being in some degree an object of public sym pathy. He thought the fact that 360 persons of high honour, including 13 Admirals and several Generals, men most distinguished in their professions, had come forward to discountenance duelling, would be a more effectual discouragement to it than any legis lation. The declaration of men of the highest honour, notorious for courage, 'that they would not give or accept challenges—that they would seek any other mode of procuring reparation for an insult than that of an appeal to arms—by producing an alteration in public feeling, was far more likely to check duelling than any attempt at legislation. These were the grounds which induced her Majesty's Government to abstain at the present time from proposing any law on the subject. Though they would not refuse to give a fair consideration to any proposal which might be made, he rather deprecated the attempt. He saw the indications of the public mind ; he saw the' feel ings expressed in consequence of the last duel by the representatives of public opinion ; he saw the combi nations of honourable men against duelling. His own impression was rather in favour of permitting the flow of this current of public opinion, and he was fearful of checking that flow by unnecessary or precipitate legislation. There were certain departments of the military and naval services with respect to which her Majesty's Government had devised regu lations which would show that they were not indifferent to the subject, although they were opposed to direct legislation. Whatever might be the views of the House of Commons as to the policy or the efficacy of legislation, he hoped that they would' at least concur with him as to the impolicy of establishing the precedent which the Hon. Gen tleman asked them to establish by passing a resolu tion declaratory of what was or was not in conformity with the Divine command.-(Hear, hear.) He trusted the House would weigh well the possible consequences of such an interference ; that they would consider the danger of the precedent and the possibility of proving that their authority was inef fectual ; and that they would discourage the attempt to denounce offences by means of resolutions. Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR said that, with regard to the resolution then before the lionse, he was perfectly ready to admit that Hon. Members might oppose it, without being subjected to the im putation that they approved of the system of duel ling. His view of the resolution was that it was a means of asking the House whether it' agreed in the system it enunciated, and, if so, whether it was dis posed to follow it up by legislation on the subject. He confessed he was one of those who thought that legislation might be advantageously proceeded with. The reason why this barbarous practice of duelling had so long prevailed was—that a person avoiding a duel, or not giving a challenge under certain circum stances, was looked upon as one to associate with whom was not reputable. But this opinion was fast being obliterated, and better and higher principles prevailed in the governance and regulations of society. And when he found so many men in that House, distinguished by their position and their. undoubted Courage, denouncing this practice, he must say he entertained strong hopes that it would gradually fall into desuetude. He could not, however, understand that new regulations, with regard to this practice, were to be framed for the members of the army on actual service, which were not to be applicable to those on half-pay, or to the navy, or to civilians. He thought that the proposal to make duelling a transportable offence was too severe a one. In his opinion of the members of the army and navy, and persons employed . in the service of the Crown, were deprived, for a time, of their appointments, and if civilians were deprived, also for a time, of their civil rights, the evil they so much deprecated might be at once greatly abated, if not wholly put an end to. Mr. HUME said he was of opinion that in She present state of society the question did not admit of legislation—they could not put an end to the system of duelling. Although he was prepared to rote for the resolution, he still thought that a more appro priate one might have been submitted to the House. Had, for instance, a resolution been brought forward simply denouncing the practice as bar barous, and pledging Members to do all in their power to discourage it, he thought it would have commanded a greater unanimity of opinion. Such a resolution too might have strengthened the hands of the Government ; for as all who had spoken 'in that House upon the subject had deprecated the practice of duelling, it must have passed unanimously, and so have afforded great weight to the responsible servants of the Crown in any steps they were now or hereafter to take. If the Ministers were only to advise the Queen to make a declaration that hereafter no person, whatever his rank, station or property., should be capable of holding any office under the Crown, after he should have been 'engaged in a duel, the practice he was sure would very soon he given up by all classes. • Mr. PLUMPTRE said the resolution was not worded in the best way possible,; but as he had no other mode of showing his opinion upon the subject he should vote with the Hon. Member for Truro, if he should think proper to go to a division. Mr. WARBURTON hoped the Hon. Member would withdraw his resolution, more especially as he had received from the expression of opinion on all sides of the House the most sufficient condemnation of the practice of duelling. He could not see, after this, what he could possibly gain by pressing the reso lution further. If he did so press it, he must vote against him, although it would be contrary to his wishes-and opinions on the subject. To save himself and the House, however, from an embarrassing posi tion, he should move the previous question in case the resolution were persisted in. Mr. BROTHERTON also hoped the resolution would be withdrawn. He quite agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) that it was better that the House should not be called on to give opinions as to what was or what was not seemly and accept able in the eye of God.—(Hear.) He further agreed with that Right Hon. Gentleman, that whatever was to be done in the matter must be effected by public opinion. -This was called a Christian country, and when we had a Christian people as inhabitants of it, then this most wicked practice would cease. He thought considerable good would accrue from the strong denunciations of duelling which had fallen from so many men of high standing in society, and of undoubted courage. One great source of this evil was, that persons were afraid to refuse a chal lenge, from fear of being thought wanting in courage. Now, in his (Mr. Brotherton's) opinion, true courage ,consisted in not being afraid to be thought afraid—in having the courage plainly to say, I will not not be guilty of this great sin.” — (Hear.) If that House hoped to do any good, it would not be by a mere resolution, but by a Bill; and they must try people at the Old Bailey, and cause them to be punished and imprisoned not only for killing people in duels, but for fighting at all, for sending a challenge, or for being a party to the sending of a challenge. He thought, however, the better course at the present moment would be for the House not to interfere at all upon the subject, but to leave it to pub lic opinion and to the example of the higher members of society for correction. 7 11. Lau . Sir T. ACLAND must add his requeSt that the motion should be withdrawn, for the sake of the great-, object he had at heart, not more so, he was sure than' the great majority of Hon. Members around him.— (Hear, hear.) Should the motion be persisted in, he must vote for the previous question; but he hoped this would not occur, as the public did not understand the technical distinctions and the niceties of that House, and might suppose that they were refusing to condemn duelling, when, in fact, they were most anxious for its suppression. He, for one, bad long entertained strong opinions upon the subject, and sincerely trusted that his own country might have the honour, in taking the lead in doing away with such a barbarity. The wisest thing that now could be done, after the very useful discussion that had taken place, would be to withdraw the motion. if this was re- Trir. SUN, LONDON, PRIpAr EVENING., MARC.: 15, 18,14. fused by the Hon. - . Member, he would ask, where the question would thCn be? The next best thhig to a withdrawal, would be to vote with the Honourable Member for Kendal (Mr. Warburton), and this, he for one should do. The fact was, the law had done all it could do, but society refused to act upon that law.—(Hear, hear.) The opinion already expressed in that House, echoed as it loudly would be by the country, would be the surest way of rooting up this great crime of society.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. TURNER, in reply, stated that he would be con tent to leave the whole subject in the hands of the Right Hon. Baronet. He . trusted the Right Hon. Ba ronet would introduce a Government measure on the subject, and would not let the heavy responsibility of introducing a Bill on the subject devolve upon an indi vidual Member. If, however, the Right Hon. Baronet did not introduce a Bill on the subject, he (Mr. Turner) should feel it his.duty to do so. He wished to correct a misapprehension under which some 'Hon. Members seemed to labour as to a statement which he had made. What he had said was that it was the law of Switzerland that the man who killed another in a duel should be liable for the debts of the deceased. He would at once, seeing the general feeling -of the House, withdraw the motion, and he took no merit to himself for so doing. The mution was then withdrawn. PROBATE AND LEGACY DUTIES. Mr. ELPHINSTONE then rose to move—" That his House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, on an early day, for the purpose of taking into consideration the Acti 36 Geo. 111., c. 52, 45 Geo. 111., c. 28, 48 Geo. 111., c. 149, and 55 Geo. 111., c. 184, with the view of imposing the same amount of probate-duty on real estate, as is now, in similar cases, imposed on personal property ; and, likewise, of con sidering the expediency of imposing a probate-duty in all cases, on the death of the cestui que trust (whe ther the trust property be realty or personalty); in order to substitute such proposed probate-duty on real estate for some of those taxes which now press most heavily on the productive industry of the people." In asking the House to take this subject 'into their consideration, he hoped he should be enabled to show to them that it was only just and fair that the same taxes should be levied upon real property which were levied upon personal property. As the law at present stood, all personal property was liable to the payment of probate duty and legacy duty upon the death of its holder. Probate duty was levied upon the whole of the property according to its value, whilst the amount of legacy duty s imposed varied according to the degree of. relationship. subsisting' between the party receiving the legacy and the deceased. There was this difference between the two duties—that while real property was in no case liable to the probate duty, in certain instances, annuities, rent-charges, and lands directed to be sold under the provisions of the Act 43 Geo. 111. were liable to legacy duty. With these trifling exceptions, it might be assumed that personal:property was in all cases liable to these duties, while real property was exempt.—(Hear, hear.) Now this state of things was most unjust to the trading and commercial classes of this country.— (Cheers.) It exposed the Members of that and of the other House of Parliament to most unpleasant imputa tions. It was known that the great majority of them were landowners, and it exposed them to the imputation of having passed a law, not for the public benefit, but for their own private advantage.—(Cheers.) When the imposition of the legacy duty was first pro posed by Mr. Pitt in the year 1796, he had intended to impose the same tax upon real property, and although the landowners were too strong for him, he told them that he considered it would be unjust to lay a tax upon personal property to which real property should not be at the same time liable.—(Cheers.) Mr. Pitt, in intro ducing the Bill, said that he considered it but right that property should contribute towards the expenses of a war undertaken to defend the rights ofproperty,and that landed property being the most permanent of all property ought to be called on to contribute accordingly-(Cheers)— but, continued Mr. Pitt, " I do not intend that the im position of the legacy duty shall be confined to landed property. I intend that it shall be imposed on per sonal property also."—(Hear, hear.) Such were the sentiments of Mr. Pitt.—(Hear, hear.) The exemption of real property from those duties was not only unjust, it was absurd. In cases of leaseholds held for a term of years, the leasehold was considered as personal pro perty, and was liable to the tax, but when a leasehold was held for lives it was considered as real pro perty, and was exempt. It so happened in the borough of South Shields that one-half of the town was let on leases for lives, and the other on leases for a term of years, so that one half of the inhabitants of the town were liable to the tax, and the other half were exempt. He would ask the House how they could suffer the liability to a tax to be regulated by these absurd technicalities.? (Hear, hear.) Why should the leaseholder in London be sub ject to this tax, while the' eopyholder in the country was exempt ?—(Hear, hear.) He would now proceed to show, from papers on the table of the House, what was the amount paid by the personal property of the country from which the real property was exempt. It appeared that, for the year ending sth of January, 1844, a sum of 2,239,7681. 7s. 4-id. had been levied as probate duty and as 'legacy 'duty; while from the returns, as regUlarly laid before the House, it would appear that from the year 1797, when these taxes was first imposed, up to the close of last year, a sum amounting to 66,835,9591. had been contributed to the revenue from the personal property of the kingdom by these taxes, for which the real property was entirely exempt. There were no precise means of , getting at the amount which the revenue would derive from the imposition of the probate and legacy duties upon the real property of the kingdom, but he thought they might arrive at some near conclusion on the subject by a little calculation. Mr. Gwynne, who had for years held a situation in the Legacy Duty office, and who was a high authority on the subject, estimated that one-thirtieth part of the per sonal property of the country was annually subjected to these duties. The Right Hon. Baronet, in introducing his measure for imposing the income-tax, had estimated the gross rental of the kingdom at 39,400,000/. ; now, estimating the value of . landed estates at 25 years pur chase, that would give 985,000,000/., as the landed capi tal of the kingdom. If they applied Mr. Gwynne's cal culations to this statement, they would find that 33,000,0001. would be liable to this tax, and that a revenue of about a million and a half annually would be , derived from this source. There was another method of arriving at the same conclusion. From Mr. Porter's valuable work on the "Progress of the Nation" it appeared that there were 46,000,000 of acres under cultivation in this coun try. If they took the rental at an average of 15s. an acre, they would arrive atpretty nearly the same amount. But whether his calculations , on that point made the amount too large or too small, still the fact remained the same, that the land was exempt from a tax which personal property was called on to pay. What could be more unjust than that a merchant or manufacturer leav ing a small piteince to his widow and family, should have that pittance testened by the imposition of these duties, while the landed proprietor, who inherited an es tate of perhaps half a million, went scot free.—(Hear, hear.) What could be more galling than that land, while it continued to be the property of a landed gen tleman, should not be subject to this tax, but that the moment it should be employed for the purposes of commerce, that moment it was purchased by partnership capital, it became liable.—(Hear, hear.) The moment it was directed to be sold to satisfy the demands of his family it became subject to the legacy duty. It was a great injustice that land ordered to be sold should be saddled with this legacy duty, because it was also at the same moment liable to other taxes. It was liable to auction duty, and to the duty paid on conveyances—such was the case with land directed to be sold ; but land that was inherited was exempt. Taxes on real property had been imposed in all civilized countries, except England and Spain. The Romans had levied a very large revenue from the levying of the twentieth penny—the vicesima pars. France derived a large revenue from the imposition of a tax upon real pro perty. The same was the case in Belgium, in Holland, in Germany, in Switzerland, and in many of the smaller States of Italy; and he trusted the time was not far dis tant when the same would be the case in this country. When he brought this question before the House two years ago he was met by two assertions—the first of which was that it would be unfair to adopt this course, because the stamp duties and the duties upon mortgages were more than equivalent to any extra burdens which might be imposed upon other classes. But he was able to show the fallacy of this assertion by stating that the whole amount derived by the revenue from stamps upon deeds and other documents amounted to 1,600,0001., but then, in that sum was included the stamp duty upon per sonal property, and he knew that only 400,0001. was de rived from real property, and mortgages, and settle ments, while the remainder of the 1,600,000 L was made up out of personal property and bonds of every descrip tion. He was ready to admit that these stamp duties were a heavy burden upon the landed proprietary, inas much as they considerably increased the expenses of the transfer of property. He was fully borne out in bis views upon this subject by the opinions of the eminent conveyancers of the day. He found the same principle of benefiting the rich at the expense of the' , poor, pervaded all those laws. He should take the clislicHn mortgage, or transfer of property, un der 1001., and ilieltainp required for that would be IL, whilst the amount of sta l inp dtjty on a mortgage of 20,000/. bore by no means a relative,and proportionate increase. If a poor man were to require. ; to transfer property to the amount of 20/. the stamp duty would be 10s., whilst the rich Nobleman, who would have to trans-. fer property of the value of 20,000/, would pay 1,0001. When a very large quantity of goods were to be sold, those duties pressed much more lightly upon the large salesman, and they made a distinction in his favour against the small tradesman. Now he thought what was fair in one case was, and ought to be applied to all. He should, if the House went into Committee upon this matter, be able to prove to their full satisfaction, that the same principle should be in operation with respect to both personal and real property ; and he thought this was quite a sufficient reason for his making this mo tion. The people of this country, above all other things, loved fair play, and they could not understand the .rea ,.,son,for this unfair decision. Mr. I'AELAWNEY seconded the motion. He did not see how: glis motion could be opposed, because Hon. Gentlemen oppbsite had said that it was necessary to keep up the corn-laWs - , , in order that the landholders should be enabled to meet the burdens imposed upon the agricultural interest. It was tine that some of those gentlemen had alluded to the necaWty J O* upholding those laws to meet mortgages, and enable iftera.to grant marriage settlements. He denied that those 'burdens pressed more heavily upon the agricultural than they did upon any other class of the community. The former paid quite as heavily as the latter for the support and repairs of the highways. Again, the land and other taxes were borne by the others quite as heavily as the landholders. He utterly denied that the land bore were them its (Or proportion 0 the burden* of the • State. In consequeiwe of thc' pressure of heavy excise duties, the artizan now paid as much-for one pound.of tobacco as would buy nine pounds, and the same was applicable to a vast number of other commodities, so that more than two-thirds of his labour went for the payment of taxes. 'The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would ask whether, in point of order, this motion could be put. The matter had been already twice discussed in this House during the course of the last session. It was an unusual course to make such a motion as this, which affected the right of imposing new taxes. The SPEAKER thought that the motion, as it stood, was irregular. He : had considerable ',doubt as to the right of the House to impoSe any tax on the people without a direct message from the Crown. The CHANCELLOR , of the EXCHEQUER thought the motion ought not to be taken at present. Mr. HUME submitted that the .House was perfectly competent now to entertain the motion. The Hon. Gentleman then read the motion. lie considered that the motion was legitimate, inasmuch as it did not pro pose any new tax. The utmost effect of it would be to. disburden one part of the community that was oppres sively taxed, and to compensate for that removal by taxing those who could bear it. He hoped the day was not far distant when the whole House wonld resolve it self into a Committee for the purpose of considering the general subject of taxation ; more especially the ques tion of equal and unequal burdens borne by diffe rent classes of the community. The Hon. Gentle man was about entering into the subject matter of the motion when, Sir R. PEEL rose to order. He assured the Hon. Gentleman he would not have risen if he did not consider that one of those safeguards against entering too hastily into the subject of taxation was about being invaded. The question then before the House was, not whether the Hon. Gentleman's motion was politic or im politic, but whether or no he was in order in making that motion. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Speaker seemed to be in doubt upon the matter, but expressed an opinion that the present motion was, at all events, an evasion of the established rules of that House. Now, be (Sir R. Peel) considered all interference with the rules of the House as most dangerous, but evading them worse than any other species of innovation. If the Hon. Gentleman were allowed to persevere in this mo• tion, it might form a very dangerous precedent. Mr. HUME said the Right Hon. Baronet need not be under any apprehension that he would at tempt to evade any of the rules of that House. He believed there was no Honourable Member more anxious to maintain the rules of that House than he was. TICe fact 'Was, he considered that the opposition given to the motion by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was an attempt to smother the motion, and as such be opposed it ; but if there was any doubt that the motion was not in conformity with the rules 9f the House, he would have recommended his Honourable Friend . to withdraw the motion. • Mr. BARING thought it would be very wrong in the House to decide without due consideration. He agreed in what had fallen from the ,Right lion. Baronet as to the propriety of preserving the of the House, and that they should be particularly cautious in everything that regarded taxation. The Hon. Gentleman might have been guilty of some irregularity in bringing the matter before the House, but he was sure the Hon. Gen tleman would not persevere in it contrary to the disposi. tion of the House. Mr. ELPHINSTONE was' willing to withdraw the motion, but he hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would allow him to fix some day next week for the considera tion of the motion. Sir R. PEEL—Yes, Tuesday or Thursday. Mr. ELPHINSTONE hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would allow him to fix on a Government night. Sir R. PEEL could not consent to that proposition. Mr. WARBURTON would suggest to his Hon. rela tive that the debate should be adjourned, and he thought no objection could be made to'the motion. The SPEAKER said he could not at that moment Re collect every precedent which would apply to the present case. He thought it was a case in which the House ought to pause before it came to any decision. Lord J. MANNERS thought it would be much better to adjourn the debate to another evening. Sir A. LEITH HAY objected to the adjournment of the debate. After a few observations from Mr. EWART and Sir R. PEEL, the motion was withdrawn. POST-OFFICE. _ Mr. WALLACE, pursuant to notice, moved—" That full effect be given to the Act, commonly called the Penny Postage Act, by the issue of postage free stamped paper, without restriction as to size or quality, —in addition to the use of labels, postage free envelopes, and prepayment at post-offices, as at present." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER trusted that the Hon. Gentleman would not persevere in his motion, as its adoption could not be attended with any good. Captain BERNAL said he was desired to express, on the part of several stationers, their dislike of this mea sure for stamping half sheets of paper. They believed that the Government had the same security in the present stamped envelopes. He believed, too, that the people were perfectly satisfied with the present plan, and he could not understand why the Hon. Member for Greenock should be so anxious to press his proposal on the Government, and he hoped that the Government would give him (Captain Bernal) an assurance that these sheets would not be issued to any great extent. He un derstood that a considerable quantity of a peculiar kind of paper had been laid in by"the Government to the amount of hundreds of tons, at Is. ld. per lb., and that they were afterwards obliged to get rid of it at a loss of ninety per cent. Mr. F. BARING stated that the late Government had contemplated an issue of Mr. Dickenson's peculiar paper, but had not done so from an apprehension of creating a monopoly. He hoped the Government, is bile consulting the convenience of the public, would be care ful not to create a monopoly of that kind. Sir GEORGE CLERK said it had been considered worth while to try the experiment of the half sheets stamped for writing inside. Not a day passed by but suggestions came to the Treasury of improvements in the postage plan, but he did not think that any sugges tion had been made of any advantage to the public arising -from the issue of stamped sheets. He believed the public found as much or more advantage in writing on common paper, and affixing labels to it. Much inconvenience might arise from the stamped sheets, especially to the poor, if they went to the expense of buying stamped sheets, if they should spoil the letter in writing, as it would be impossible to recover the penny stamp from the Post-office. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman that they were trying the experiment on a very small scale. A small quantity only of stamped half-sheets were to be issued, in order to ascertain whe ther the plan would afford additional convenience to the public.. - Mr. WALLACE still remained of opinion that the penny stamps on full sheets of pppaper would be a great Convenience to the public, especially to the poorer classes. He . was of opinion that the plan of the half-sheets would be a failure ; but evidently seeing that the House was against his proposition, he would withdraw his motion. The motion was then withdrawn. FOREST OF DEAN. The Earl of LINCOLN moved for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the time within which arrangements may be made on behalf of the Crown, of encroachments on the Forest of Dean.—Agreed to. LAND-TAX COMMISSIONERS NAMES BILL. On the motion of Sir. GEORGE CLERIi, leave was given to bring in the Land-Tax Commissioners Names Bill. GAME LAWS. Mr. WALLACE called the attention of the House to the petition from the counties of Lanark, Ayr, and Renfrew, respecting the inefficiency of the law forbid ding the going armed by night for the purpose of de stroying game ; and moved for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the provisions of the Act 9 Geo. IV. c. 69, to similar offences when committed on highways, and other public roads and paths, during the night, as when those offences are committed upon inclosed or open lands through which highways and other roads and paths pass. Leave was given to bring in the Bill. Mr. FRENCH moved fur a return of the names of all persons who 'have been appointed to command vessels in her Majesty's service, from the Ist dar of October, 1841, to the Ist day of March, 1844 ; speci fying whether each person so appointed be a native of England, Ireland, or Scotland. Mr, S. HERBERT had no objection to grant the re turn, provided the specification of country was omitted by the Hon. Gentleman, which, being agreed to, the re turn was ordered. JUSTICE TO IRELAND. MEETING IN C OVE fT GARDEN THEATRE. Last evening a meeting of the friends of Ireland was held in Covent-garden Theatre, for the purpose, as ex- pressed in the advertisement convening the meeting, of affording to the middle and industrious classes an op portunity of mingling:their feelings with, those of the higher classes, so unequivecally expressed on a late oc casion, in sympathy for the sufferings of the Irish people, and of their illustrious leader, in whose person the dearest right enjoyed by the subject under the consti tution of this country has been grossly infringed. Long before the hour appointed for taking the chair had arrived, the theatre was densely thronged in every 'part, and the pit so much se that it was found necessary to admit a large portion of its occupants upon the stage. There were stationed in various places throughout the house, but chiefly around the chair, several men, some of whom were dressed in frieze coats—the dress peculiar to the Irish peasant—and who wore upon their hats slips of paper, having inscribed the words, " O'Connell's police?! Judging from the boisterous good humour of the mighty mass, their exhibition of mirth, and the evident determination which they evinced to have as much " fun" _among themselves as possible before the commencement of the business of the meeting, we should say the vast majority were natives of " the Green Isle." The dress circle and stage boxes were occupied by persons of both sexes, who belonged, ap parently, to what are conventionally termed the better classes. Shortly after seven o'clock the cheering from with out heralded the approach of Mr. O'Connell, and im mediately on the entrance of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman upon the stage, the vast assemblage rose en masse, and the scene that ensued baffles description. The ladies waved their handkerchiefs, the gentlemen their hats, and both cheered and hurraed, again and again, with an earnestness and enthusiasm which were, perhaps, equalled, but only equalled, on the occasion of Mr. O'Connelrs reception at the banquet on Tuesday evening last. When the cheering, which was prolonged for several minutes, had somewhat subsided, WILLIAM J. O'CONNELL, Esq. (Grand Repeal Warden of England), was called to the chair, amidst most enthusiastic cheering. He said he was sure that they would believe him when he said that he considered that moment to be the proudest of his existence. lie believed that he had been called upon to preside, be cause he bore the name of their honoured and esteemed leader, who sat on his right hand.—(Loud cheers.) He believed that they all appreciated the merits of that powerful body whose exertions were destined to restore peace, happiness, independence, and na tionality to Green Erin.—(Great cheering.) That cheer convinced him that it was unnecessary _ _ to mention the name of that body, but still he would do so, it was the Loyal National Repeal Association.— (Great cheering.) He had witnessed an assemblage in that theatre on Tuesday last which did honour to Old England.— (Cheers.) He would ask what it was that brought together the Noblemen and men of influence that were assembled on that occasion ? Why, they as sembled together with the same object for which the present vast meeting had been called together—to ho nour, to esteem, and to love the great Liberator of Old Ireland.—(Tremendous cheering.) The sympathetic feelings which had been exhibited on that occasion would never be obliterated from the Irish breast.—(Great and enthusiastic cheering.) It was glorious, indeed, to find that feelings of amity and brotherly love had so suddenly sprung up between the Irish people, and the English people. Englishmen now found that they could understand the Irish character. He hoped that every Irishman present would do all in his power to cultivate that friendship which had been expressed and exhibited on Tuesday night last.—(Renewed cheering.) Englishmen were their brothers and fellow-subjects, and they had been perse cuted by the same class of persecutors. He hoped that the anniversary of last Tuesday would be kept every year, and that upon that day Englishmen and Irishmen would meet together.—(Great cheering.) The Hon. Gentleman concluded by calling on Mr. HYDE, of St. John's-wood, to move the first resolution. He came forward to do so as an Irish Pro testant.—(Great cheering.) It had been said that the objects of the Repealers was to dismember the empire. He emphatically denied this, and he declared that if such was the purpose of the Repeal Association, to which he was proud to belong, he would not for a moment allow his name to be connected with it. He had much plea sure in moving the following resolution:—" That we yield to no class of the British people in loyalty to our gracious Sovereign in our respect for her public and private virtues, and in our determination to maintain, unimpaired, her supreme authority."—(Loud cheers.) Mr. O'LEARY seconded the resolution, which was put and carried unanimously, amidst much cheering. Mr. M'LEoD moved the next resolution, " That the sympathy for the sufferings of the Irish people, which has been so nobly displayed by large bodies of English men, on late occasions, is gratifying to all lovers of peace and good will, and must afford, if any such were required, additional motives for exertion, and that we are determined to struggle peacefully, but untiringly, for the regeneration of Ireland." Mr. M'LEAN seconded the resolution, and in doing so _ _ he said that he had been driven from his own country to this to seek employment, because a system of bad legis lation had deprived him of the means of subsistence at home. He hoped ere long to see meetings upon this subject held, not in theatres, but in such places as Ken nington-common, where they would raise a shout whose echo should be heard within the walls of the House of Commons and the House of Lords, and which should cause those imbecile Lords to tremble in their seats, and make them say to themselves " the Agitator has got not only the Irish people with him but the English people also." The resolution was then put and carried amidst en thusiastic cheering. Mr. G. FALL, an English Protestant, and a member of the Loyal National Repeal Association, moved the next resolution—" That Daniel O'Connell, Esq., is de serving of our unlimited confidence for his unparalleled services in the cause of Ireland, and for his persevering exertions to promote the rights and liberties of man without distinction of 'class, colour, or creed, and the persecution to which he has been subjected, serves only to raise him in the esteem and good-will of all friends of constitutional freedom; and that an address, in con formity with the foregoing resolution, be presented to Daniel O'Connell, Esq."—(Groat cheering.) The resolution, having been seconded by Mr. Barden, was put and carried unanimously. Letters of apology for not attending the meeting were then read by Mr. Dunn, the Secretary, from Mr. Shar man Crawford, M.P., Sir De Lacy Evans, and Sir John Easthope, Bart., M.P. The CHAIRMAN then read the address to Mr. O'Connell, which was one from the Repeaters of London. No copies we were informed, on our application for one, had been prepared for the press. At the close of the reading of the address— • Mr. O'CoNNELL advanced to the front of the stage, and was again hailed with the most enthusiastic cheering, which was prolonged for several minutes. When order was partially restored, he said—After all I have to com plain of you. Perhaps you will think me ungrateful when I begin by telling you that you have taken an ad- . vantage of me—not an unfair advantage, but still an ad • vantage, because you have anticipated me in what I had determined upon doing when I left Ireland.— (Hear.) I left 'lreland with the full determination of calling a meeting of the Repealers of London. I determined to address them at some length, and I considered a good deal where it was I should call the meeting to be held. You have, hovirever, anticipated me. You have spontaneously called a meeting, and I glory in the im mense assemblage you have brought together.(Cheers.) Repealers of London, I thank you.—(Cheers.) I have come here to address you as Repealers.—(Cheers.)— [Here the Hon. and Learned Gentleman apologised for wearing his hat, which he said the cold wind that blew from behind him rendered necessary.] (A voice, " Take care of your health.") I want to take care of it, continued the • llon. and Learned Gentleman, I know not how long I may be locked up.—(Cries of " Never,") When I left Ireland, I felt it would be my duty to address the Repealers of London, and to express to them the gratitude of the humble individual now ad dressing you—my own personal gratitude—the gratitude of the Loyal National Repeal Association—the grati tude of the entire Irish people, for, the patriotism and perseverance which the Repealers of London have evinced. I rejoice in the manner you have conducted yourselves. Unaccustomed to so large a combination,'little differences arose from time to time amongst you, but they were all amicably settled amongst yourselves in the spirit of good fellowship, and one of the most important branches of the Repeal Association were found located in London. Repeaters of London, I thank you—heartily thank you. I pay a debt of national gratitude in thanking you, and it gives me great pleasure to tell you that the contributions from London have exceeded, by four times the amount, anything we expected.—(Hear.) Having told you now what I in tended to speak of, I tell you now what I did not think I . would have to tell you when I left Ireland. I t hen had no notion that one of the topics upon which I should have to address the Repealers of London would be the English sympathy and the English support which I have received since my arrival in England.—(Cheers.) In every crisis of the fate of Ireland—looking back at her history as I have done with anxious and persevering' eye—estimating the facts that have preceded us, with a view to know how I should re plate those that were to approach—with the most anxious solicitude to understand the history of our coun try, I made myself familiar with its details, and lam able to say these 'two things—first, that at no other crisis of the fate of Ireland, was the Government divided f r om the popular voice in. England—unhappily the English people were deluded into joining their Government in for Mer oppressions of Ireland. In every other phasis of Irish history, the people and the Government of England went together in oppressing Ireland. Blessed be God I we have arrived at a time when the .wise and, the good of the English oration range themselves on our side, and condemn as emphatically as we condemn, the misconduct of a base and paltry. Governinent.—(Loud cheers.) Yes, I had no notion of meeting with so much 'sympathy and sup port. The cheers of the men of Birmingham are still ringing in' my ears.---(A voice from the gallery, "You shall have' more of them.") I wish somebody would put a wisp of hay in thatcalf is mouth.—(Roars of laughter.) Yes, the cheers in the milder, but not less sincere accents of what are called the - better classes of society are still present to my mind.' Eight and forty hours hare not TOBACCO. Mr. HUME moved that the following gentlemen form the Select Committee on. Tobacco :—Mr. Hume, the Chancellor of the Exchequer; Mr. Parker, Mr. : Villiers, Mr. Colquhous, Viscount Sandon, Mr. Beckett, Mr. Ewart, Mr. Young, Mr. Smythe, Dr. Bowring, Mr. Hodgson Elude, Sir Charles Douglas, Mr. Alderman Humphery, and Mr. Darby.—Agreed to. The Teachers of Schools (Ireland) Bill went through Committee. • The Report of the Three-and-a-Half per Centum Re duction Bill was brought up. Sir GEORGE CLERIC brought in the annual Indem nity Bill, which was read a first time. Sir JAMES GRAHAM presented a petition from the Professor of the University of Glasgow, praying that they might have no religious tests imposed on them. The House then, at Twenty Minutes after Twelve, adjoiiried until to-morrow. . . To THE LamEs.—The high and universal celebrity which Rowland's Kalydor continues to maintain as an active, yet mild and soothing extirpator of all impurities of the skin, is during the periods of Spring most pleasingly evinced. This preparation eminently balsamic, restorative, and invi gorating, is equally celebrated for safety in application, as for unfailing efficacy in removing all impurities and discoloura tions ; and in promoting a healthy freshness and transparency to the Skin and Complexion. lts universally great demand excites'the cupidity . of unprincipled shopkeepers, who give the title of " Genuine Kalydor" to compounds of their own manufacture, of the most deleterious .character, containing mineral astringents utterly ruinous to the Complexion, and, by their repellant action endangering health. It is, there fore, imperative on purchasers to see that the words " Row land's .Kalydor" are on. the wrapper. —All others are frau dulent counterfeits. • THE LATE LUXE OF SUSSEX'S LIBRARY.—By the will of the late Duke of Sussex it was directed that if the Government did not purchase his library within one year after his Royal Highness's decease, it was to be sold by public auction. The King of Prussia is now in treaty for the purchase of this rare collection of books, which consists of upwards of 45,000 volumes, the whole of which have been catalogued by Mr. Pettigrew, the Duke's librarian, and the list transmitted to his Majesty. We have not heard the value placed upon them by his 11.9yal Highness's executors. Even at the low average of hall a crown a voltwie they would maim 5,6254 elapsed since I saw the gorgeous spectacle which this very house presented—when I saw congregated thou sands of the wealthier classes of England, all joining in one sympathetic shout of disapprobation of persecution, and of abhorrence of injustice and partiality—shouts of determination to have justice done to - Ireland.—(Load cheers.) We have come to a new era in the history of the two countries. For the first time the real po. pular voice of England is raised in favour a Ireland for the first time the people of Ireland have to look with the deepest gratitude upon the exertions of their English fellow-countrymen. I wish I possessed high powers of language—oh, how I desire the elocution of those talented orators whom I have often heard and adinired—l wish it was in my power to give the faintest idea of the vital emotions—the burning sentiments of my soul, and the . throbbings of my heart—the cash laniacree—(Enthusiastic and Ipng continued cheering) — with which I delight to acknowledge the sympathy and support that Ireland has had on this occasion from all that are wise and from all that are good amongst the . English peoplp.—(Cheers.) I have had on my table four invitations from the north and the south and the midland counties of England. If I were able to remain in England longer—but I am wanted back in Ireland now—(A laugh)—there is scarcely a district in this country in which I shoUld not have one of our "monster meetings." _ _ —(Cheers.) And I believe _I might be indicted fo - r a conspiracy •in England if I remained.—(Cheers and laughter.) But I would have one thing certain, at all events, in England, an unprejudiced jury and an impar tial judge to decide. Oh, I wish to dwell longer than may suit your present convenience. Delightful are the reflections that arise from the proof of English sympathy. Why, I was astounded* myself, when I arrived in the House of Commons, at the repeti tion of cheers from so many English gentlemen of rank and fortune. I have been - astounded too, in the streets at the tokens of respect that are paid me from moment to moment.—(Cheers.) I have been delighted at the tens of thousands that have cheered me at Birmingham; and lam grateful beyond expression for the splendid scene that has so lately taken place inthis theatre. Think you not that my heart must throb—that I must rise, as it were, beyond my natural proportion, at the acclamations with which I am received in this crowded—this enor- mous—this powerful assemblage, of my fellow-countrymen and countrywomen.—(Loud cheers.) Whatever becomes of me, whatever the fate of Ireland, I never will forget the debt of gratitude that I now owe to the English people.—(Hear, hear.) One word from my lips shall never pass taunting them with their prior submission to our rulers. Not an accent shall fall . from My lips inconsis tent with respect and regard for them.—(Hear, hear.) I for myself _here proclaim perpetual amity between the people of the two countries—perpetual hostility to the oppressors of each—and I do venture to pro phesy that tho language I use here to-night shall be re-echoed throughout Ireland—that there shall not be a public meeting or private social circle in which the manner that the English people have conducted them selves towards Ireland on this occasion, will not be triumphantly proclaimed with the most grateful and cordial acknowledgments.—(Hear, hear.) It is delightful tbat it should happen so. When I formed the intention ,of addressing the Repealers of London, of course I meant to give them my advice, and my first advice to them is to cultivate kindness towards their. English fellow- countrymen.—(llear, hear.) Let there be no distinction between Englishmen and Irishmen. Let no one accuse any of them of religious bigotry, or political turpitude. To be sure there may be some individuals amongst them, as amongst ourselves, who are guilty of those crimes ,• but remember you have the heart and soul of England pledged with you, and I need not bid you show your selves worthy of that state of feeling—for when were Irishmen ungrateful, when were they forgetful of kind ness? They have been very thankful for services ren dered on smaller and minor matters ; but here is an important matter—a concern of national value and of national, vital importance—and you will show your gratitude accordingly, by adhering to • the people of England—by joining them in every movement which tends to increase their liberties, whatever becomes of your own.—(Loud cheers, and cries of "We will.") What is my next advice to you? It is that you con vince the English people with whom you associate — whom you may casually meet—every Englishman who discusses the quegtion of repeal with you, of this truth —that the repeal of the union does not mean separation. One of the means by which the honest part of the English people have been kept in hostility to the Irish struggle for repeal was, by infixing in their minds that repeal meant separation from England. It means no such thing. It means directly the contrary. What are the ingredients in their condition that would make the Irish people desire separation? They are misgovernment, oppression, poverty, and destitution. - They are all the effects of a tyrannical and bigoted sway. These aro the things that would make the Irish people desirous of separation as the remedy of their grievances. Give them fair play—give them proper government—give them equal rights with the people of England—and why should they wish for separation? The people of Ireland know full well the advantages to both coun tries of the connexion. England is strong, and Ireland can never suffer by having the connexion continued. That is a proper connexion upon the basis of mutual rights, mutual privileges, mutual prosperity, and mutual liberty. A connexion established on that basis the people of Ireland would have the most direct interest in continu ing. Oh, they calumniate me who say that I wish for separa tion. lam striving to make separation impossible—and to render the continuation of the connexion certain. To make it the pride and glory of England to have such a connection with Ireland—that is what I want. I want to keep the countries together, and I tell you, with all the sincerity of an oath, without its profaneness (for an oath would be profane on such an occasion), that I am thoroughly convinced that if the union is not repealed while I am alive and possess influence over the Irish people—and, oh, I am myself astonished at the extent of that influence—l say, if the union be not repealed, it will end in a -violent civil war, and in all the horrors of a sanguinary separation.—(Hear.) I am the link of con- nexion between the two countries. lam the individual round whom, to my utter astonishment, the wise and the good of England have rallied now. Around me, I may say, the people of Ireland are pleased to rally, and I stand in the position to make terms for both, equally advantageous to all, for the prosperity of England would be only augmenting the prosperity of Ireland, if she had fair play. As was lately said by an English gentleman, the comfort and happiness of the Irish people would be a great advantage to the people of England, because, it would be the advantage which arises between the rich capitalists and the poor customer, in articles of trade and commerce. Repealers and repeal-wardens of Lon don, circulate from us, and from your own common sense, this fact, that the repeal of the union is but the repeal of an Act of Parliament. Tell the people of Eng land that Ireland was connected with their country 600 years, during which she had a Parliament as well as England. There was no separation then—no tendency to separation. No man dreamt of separation, except in the revolutionary era that followed the French outbreak, and that overturning of everything sacred and profane —where the Presbyterian Republicans of the north of England thought of severing the connexion, but the great mass of the Irish people were sound and healthy in their allegiance. Depend upon it the repeal of the union, so far from leading to a dismem-' berment of the empire, would be but an additional link of connection between the two countries, and render separation impossible. That is my second advice to you—namely, to show to everybody that repeal does not mean separation. —(Hear.) Then I call upon you to be firm in looking for repeal.—(Cheeri*g, and cries of "We will.") Ireland wants the repeal. There is no -body can doubt the misery that has occurred to Ireland since the union. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then proceeded at considerable length to point out the evil effects to Ireland of the union. He quoted the Poor law Commissioners' Report to show that there were 2,300,000 paupers in that country out of a population of 8,000,000 ; and also the late report of Captain Larkom, who showed that 70 per cent. of the agricultural popula tion lived in cabins, consisting of but one room, and 30 per cent. of the town population living in a single room —sometimes even three or four families living in one room—and he dilated on the enormous extent to which destitution and misery must have spread to have pro duced such results. He showed that the Repeal would be advantageous to England also, inasmuch as it would produce such prosperity in Ireland as would afford means of employment to the Irish operative at home, and thus prevent him from cheapening the labour market in England, and thereby lowering the rate of wages to the English operative. He quoted Mr. Pitt to show that the prosperity which existed in Ireland under domestic legislation, when she exported three pillions' worth of manufactured goods, and imported only one million ; and he pointed out how fallacious had been the prophecy of that statesman, when ho undertook to foretell that the -union of England with Ireland would be, productive of increasing prosperity to the latter country. He took occasion amongst other things, to condemn the Irish poor-law, which taxed the already impoverished people for the purpose of giving eightpence out of every shilling in the rate to the persons engaged in the administration of the law, while only fourpence was applied to the benefit of the poor. He pointed to the anomaly of allowing a domestic Parliament to each of the dependencies of the empire— Canada, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, Jamaica, Bar badoes, and even Botany Bay — (Laughter)—while Ire land, the next in importance of all the portions of this vast empire, to England, was not permitted that privilege to which he- concluded she had an undoubted right. He accounted for the poverty of Ireland by the annual withdrawal of six millions of money, in the shape of absentee rents, and two millions of surplus taxation. Thus, said he, in the last ten years not less than 80,000,0001. have been taken out of Ireland, and he asked them if such would be the case, if they had a domestic Legislature ? He adverted to the injustice of the majority of the Irish people being taxed to support a Church which was that of the minority, and in the tenets of which they did not believe, and he disclaimed all intention or desire of seeking to obtain the revenues of the Church Establishment for the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland, and confirmed his assertion by referring to the refusal, on a late occasion, of the Roman Catholic Bishops of that country ever to accept any such revenues from the Government.—(Hear, hear.) The Church of Ire land was, he said, the monster grievance, for when they sought for any advantage—for increased, representation —for an enlargement of the franchise—for a - removal of the oppression and grinding tyranny of the landlords, or of the cruelty of absenteeism, they were always met by the statement that those remedies would be injurious to the established Protestant Church of Ireland. What admirable supporters of the Church they were ! They heaped' up every grievance upon the Irish people, and then said they were requisite to support their monstrous Church Establishment. The population of Ireland was about 8,000,000, and the population of Great Britain was not more than 16,000,000. Those 16,000,000 had 553 representatives, while Breland had but 105. One of the greatest evils of the union Was that with respect to the national debt, for at the time the union was passed the debt of Ireland amounted to 20,000,000/, while that of England was 45r 000,0001.-(Hear, hear.) Ireland ought to-have 156 members at least. There was no union unless she had. The number of inhabitants in the county of Cork was 713,000, and there were 150,000 more in the towns, in all, more than 850,000 inhabitants, and yet • the city and county of Cork only returned eight members. The number of inhabitants is Wales was 800,000, and they returned twenty-eight members. The 800,000 inhabitants had twenty-eight members, and the 850,000 had but eight members.—(Cries of " Shame.") Why it was a shame,', and no man was honest that would not stand up against it. It had been said that the mem bers a place ought to return should be estimated at the amount of revenue it paid. Why Cork paid 650,000/ revenue, whereas Wales only paid 235,000/. If, therefore, the number of members were to be apportioned accord ing to the amount of revenue, Cork would return twenty eight members, and Wales fourteen.—(Cheers.) Such a state of things ought to, be altered. He had applied to the Tories to do it, and they had refused. He had applied to the Whigs, and they also refused. Repeal -was the only thing which was calculated to confer benefit on Ireland. Ireland had . always been-wronged and insulted. Scotland and Eng land refused ob t e nei: . l o r a fouryears, corporatewhen Reform they Bill, got bu one t Irelandwich was an insult to them. In England, in ev er y cor p orate town, every man was entitled to vote as a burgess, who paid his poor-rates. In Dublin no person could vote unless he paid eight or nine different taxes. Sir Robert Peel had said, that when the Irish Parliament was in existence it was a most corrupt one, and sold itself ulti mately. Now he (Mr. O'Connell) admitted that Sir Robert Peel was a good judge of corruption.—(Cheers.) He was perfectly competent to judge of bribery and undue influence. Mr. Roebuck and Sir R: Peel had both stated that there never had been more bribery or undue influence at any , election than that which was practised at the last general election. This, too, had been admitted by everybody. He (Mr. O'Connell) would rather have a corrupt Irish Parliament than a corrupt English one.—(Cheers.) It might be considered bad taste, but it was not bad discretion. The Irish-Par liament, corrupt as it was, kept the debt in Ireland down to 20,000,0001., while the English Parliament made the debt in England 445,000,000/ He would ask Sir Robert Peel what the English Parliament was before the Reform Bill ?—(Loud cheers.) He would not, from motives of delicacy to the Right Honourable Baronet, ask what it had been since. —(Cheers and laughter.) Why it was an English Parliament that sanctioned the expedition to Walcheren. An English army was sent to a pestilential climate, and what was the result? Why, that army was eaten up:by disease. Yet that ex- . pedition was approved of by the English Parliament. Let them show him when an Irish Parliament had been guilty of such a crime. He called upon Sir Robert Peel to give such an instance of corruption in the Irish Par liament.—(Cheers.) The Irish House of Commons carried a measure for shortening the duration of Parliament, and this in spite of the Government. They also gave free trade to Ireland. In the year 1785 Mr. Pitt came with a proposition to shackle the commerce of Ireland. The Irish Parliament rejected that proposition. It was not a corrupt Par liament in Ireland that they sought, but a Parliament founded on democratic principles.—(Cheers.) Mr. M‘Lean had talked of a meeting being held on Kenning ton Common. That was a very foolish thing to think of. That was the sort of meeting the Government would like. All they wanted was to have such a meeting, and they would then say " We should not have imprisoned Mr. O'Connell if it had not been for these symptoms in Eng land." The principle upon which he (Mr. O'Connell) proceeded was that of peaceable agitation. Nothing could justify the shedding of one drop of human blood. — (Cheers.) The only way to improve the social state, to elevate man, and to give real freedom to the people, was by peaceable combination. Let them be decided and determined, and they would not be the less deter mined because they were peaceable. He was a Chris tian man, working for the benefit of a Christian peo ple. Let their struggle be peaceable, and they might depend upon it that that struggle would be successful. There had been forty-one monster meetings in Ireland, and not a single act of violence was committed at any one of them.—(Cheers.) Old men were there with the memory of wrongs in their minds, and festering in their hearts; there were the young men, conscious of their strength and stalwart power ; the boys were there, roaring in their hope of liberty ; and young children were also there. Young mothers carried their infants there, and ancient matrons led their daughters to them, quite sure that no disrespect, either personal or by words, would be offered to them. The assemblies in drawing-rooms never could have be haved more courteously to each other than the Irish people did on those occasions. There was no violence — no tumult—no blow struck, and, most miraculous, there was not even a single accident. When he was in Cork, on the banks of that magnificent estuary, he saw women amidst the crowds, with young infants in their arms, and room was made for them in those vast crowds, so that the infants should not be injured. Oh, Heaven, what a people !—(Great cheering.) Let them in Eng land be peaceable, and obey the law. Let them redouble their activity, increase their numbers, and augment their resources. Let them revenge him—he wanted them to revenge him—by being doubly assi duous in the Repeal struggle.—(Vehement cheering.) There were many excellent bodies of men in this country, and he would be glad to see all the Repealers joined with them. There was an excellent set of men who were seeking complete suffrage—that was that every man should possess the franchise who had attained the age of 21. There was an excellent set of men, too, who sought the attainment of the honest ballot, the shortening the duration of Parliaments, and the abolition of the pro perty qualification. He hoped the Repealers would join with these.—(Loud cheers.) He confessed frankly that he did not want them to join the Chartists—(Cheers) —and he would tell them at once why he did not. It was because they did not allow other people to meet together without disturbing their meetings. Let the Chartists alone—let them meet as often as they pleased, but let no Irishman meddle with them. They had a right to meet, and any person would be wrong who attempted to interfere with them, and it was equally wrong in the Chartists to interfere with others. Mr. Sharman Crawford had complained of this in a letter to the Morning Chronicle . He (Mr. O'Connell) could not sit down without expressing his delight at the admirable manner in which that monster meeting had been managed.—(Loud cheers.) If anybody were to re proach them for continuing the agitation, let them reply that the only means of remedying the evils of Ireland was a domestic Parliament.—(Cheers.) The English Parliament promised them nothing, and they would faithfully perform that.—(Cheers, and laughter.) They were very excellent fellows in keeping their promise when they promised nothing.—(Renewed cheers and laughter.) Sir James Graham had told them last year that concession had arrived at its utmost limits. This year he lowered his tone a note or two, but he was equally obstinate in his determination to do nothing. A sympathetic spirit with respect to Ireland was rapidly spreading through England. The people of England knew that it was not separation, but equal rights and liberties, by means of a local Legislature, that the people of Ireland required. It was for this that he had laboured, and though he might be locked up in a dungeon he would be happier far than those who sent him there.—(Great cheering.) The Government might imprison him, but they would never frighten him.—(Renewed cheering.) He might wear his eyebrows out against the bars of his prison, but he would be supported by the knowledge that he had been sent there for his love of Old Ireland. "Unprized are her sons till they learn to betray, Undistinguished they live if they shame not their sires; And the torch that should light them to victory's way, Must be caught from the pile where their country expires." —(Loud cheers.) In early life he had registered a vow in heaven to write his name in a page of the history of his country. He believed he had already done so.— (Vehement cheering.) From his earliest youth the cause of Ireland had been ever dear to his heart, and that love of his country would ever animate his heart, either in a prison or in his own native home.—(Cheers.) " The nations are fallen ; but thou art still young, Thy sun is but rising, while others have set ; Though slavery's chain round thy morning was hung, The full noon of freedom shall beam round thee yet." The Hon. and Learned Gentleman sat down, amidst the most enthusiastic cheering. On the motion of Mr. MORGAN J. O'CoNNELL, a Tote of thanks was passed to the Chairman; after which, the meeting separated. CELTIC ENTERTAINMENTS.—Tuesday evening the Music Hall in Store-street, Bedford-square, which has been so often the scene of Scotch entertainments by Mr. Wilson, exhibited a different series, under a similar title. When her Majesty visited Scotland, last year but one, she was highly amused at Tavmouth Castle, the princely seat of the Mar quis of Breadalbane, by a party of Highland pipers and dancers, who exhibited before her Majesty and Prince Al bert and suite, the varied characteristics of their country in music and dancing. The same party, after performing in the English provinces on their route, have visited the metropolis, and every Tuesday evening offer their entertain ment at the Store-street Music 'Hall. The performarice of Tuesday night contained many of the dances and pieces per formed before Royalty, and a highly respectable company justly and rapturously applauded the untiring Scotchmen. The party is five in number,—two, viz., Duncan Mackay and John Cameron are the pipers, and two others, Arcibald Macdonald and Donald Macdougal are the votaries of Terpsichore, being assisted by a fifth countryman in the four-handed reels. The war marches of the various claw, and the merry danc ing measures of the hardy HighlandMs, are performed with great taste and freedom, and the dancing exhibits with sin gular avidity the agility of the nobly-proportioned Celt. The reels were astonishingly well managed, and were all encored. The entertainment, replete with interest, was com pletely successful ; it is both novel and instructive, and will afford considerable information to those who have read of, but never saw or heard, the Highland minstrel, and his shrill pibroch, which so oft has blown the note of slaughter, or awoke the mountain echoes to the agile bounding of the lilt, the reel, or fling. It must not be omitted that the whole are habited in the characteristic costume of their country.— Advertiser. EXCISE SALES.—On Wednesday, at one o'clock, in pursuance of instructions from the Commissioners of Excise. a sale by auction was announced at the sale-room of the Ex cise-office, Broad-street, City, of a large quantity of spirits and other articles, under forfeiture to the Government. They con sist of 1,300 gallons of illicit Irish whisky, 16,000 gallons of brandy, 4,000 gallons of Geneva, which have been condemned and re-distilled, 6,4001b5. of scented and other soaps, 1,617 lbs. of British sugar, 102 eases of British mixed brandy, a large quantity of bottled and pale a le, plain spirits, Scoich whiskey, compounds, sweet leaf tobacco, cheroots, wearing apparel, copper stills, tubs, casks, &c. &c. There was a crowd of bidders for the various lots in the room, the greater portion of whom were of the Hebrew nation. In consequence of the numerous lots, the sale will occupy three days of the present and one of the ensuing week. The lovers of music in Manchester, with their usual spirit, are about to erect a new music hall. At a pre liminary meeting held at the Wellington Rooms last week, the Stun of 2,1904 wag subscribed as a eoramencement•