The Sun. — London, England, 1836-07-19 00:00:00

A...0r .1 ...•11.1.1....ft1i1i., .0 - I.' Peet to pamphlets, be trusted such steps would be taken as to Prevent those who published history from being liable to the Penalr.es imposed on those who published news on an un- Festair,ped press. He trusted that some measure such as that atemplated would be introduced, for the purpose of giving the proprietors of be a copyright in the publication. 'That was a proteniion which he was sure the House would readily grant those who were large in number, and had em barked imnaense prope r ty, an d s kil l and industry, in these newspaper concerns.—( Hear, hear.) He must, however, say that themped press suffered more from the depredations of those w hobelonged to the same class than from the unstamped those. belonged Hear. ) Mr, J. JERVIS and Dr. RO exher . i s atiei'action at the changes which the WRIN Chanc G ellor p of ressed the t Ex eiNuer had proposed. , now r . OIJLB UR N w i s h e d to as k t h e Ri g h t H on. Friend hey were to come at those printers who had not their Bates registered at the Stamp-office, and who might be en- gated in printin t hat to g unstamped of the E üblicons ? The CHANCELLOREXCHEQUER replied Just in e yeeust pro cee d aga i nst t h em.-as well as they could; same way as wh en i n f orma ti on was rece i ved of the existence of an illi c i t st ill . Mr- Passed C. Beven ti ULLEß trusted that some measure wou ld b e for Preventing the news contaid in h paers s t h e ,o v Tinies and Morning Chronicle from ne being suc ra tnsferr p a r e ed, in - L Prints. Lours a f ter the publication of these papers, to other 1 ,.. 'Li . - WAKLEY observed, with respect to what had been said by the Hon. Member for Cambridge, that the printing Presses were how liable to be seized if they were not regis tered, so that by leaving the law as it stood, the di ffi culty which the Hon. Member apprehended would be obviated. 'The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then pro- Posed clause 233. bl Mr. HUME admitted that th e Bill h a d rece i ve d considera -12 Modifi.eatio n ; but it was evide n t th at i t too k a l ong t i me *,7 seewring anything from the e x c i se . F or hi s part, h e w i s h e d r''" the excise a b o li s h e d a l toget h er.—(A laugh.) He was stiaded ,it mi g h t b e most advantageously dispensed with. t e was exceedingly sorry to see the House shutting the door -t'ainst a free press ; for it was evident that the object of the tax ha to put down an unstamped press. For a paltry penny ax the reirrn of ignorance was to be maintained throughout the land. b ln the unparalleled situation in which we were, 14 . 3 ,'" e re venue in so flourishing a condition, the time of the House 1 ,, -3 to be wasted for so miserable a consideration. If Govern earWere to get rid of all the Stamp Duties they would do ,1 110 1 good, and would obtain more credit than almost by any -La u er act. u n r i GROTE cordially concurred in all that had fallen from theh "att. Member for Middlesex. He entertained more repug nant feelings towards the present Bill than almost to any mea sure whi c h h ad ever come under his consideration; and he gtrusted, th e t i me would soon arrive when the Right Hon. the ',lcellor o f t h e Exchequer would propose the abolition of e PentlY duty, and thereby remove every obstacle to the dif - f4 i l an of knowledge throughout the country. Th i e c l ause was th en agree d to. - Ise remaining- clauses o f th e Bill, a ft er rece i v i ng nume te w e tt verbal am endments, were also agreed to. clauses were then added. e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in pursu. anco of an i ntention previously intimated, brought up a clause t 0 enable Pr i nters to register their names and presses, and %t iesaereby more e ffectually to guard the mse l ves aga i nst the penal- Olimposed on the p u blication of unstamped papers. e claus e -b i was'ae'reed to, and ord er ed to be added to the 11. Several other c l auses h av i ng b een a d ded to the Bill, The CHAN CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER came for ward with another, with respect to which he felt it necessary tc ' s)' a word or two in explanation. After describing the re presentations which had been made to him to induce him to twines :the Stamp on Newspapers published in Ireland from ° fle Penny to one halfpenny, and the reasons which led him to resist the applications made upon that point, the Right Hon. aientleman proceeded to say, that thinking there was some , til t ing in th e stron g and serious remonstrances made to him by tee Irish newspaper proprietors, he stated to the parties who itPelied to him that he would make some concession to the Irish newspapers in the advertisement duty. The House was Well aware that the duty at present imposed upon newspapers onla Ireland was two-pence, upon which a discount was allowed 25 per cent . If, therefore, the duty w ere now reduced to ~. not continued, th e actua l redue tiital afforded t o t h e I r i sh newspapers would be only three far- Now l ags. Now th ree f arthings was not an amount that the latiblishers could charge upon the price of their paper, "ald it would consequently happen that whilst they re deuive,d only the advantage of three farthings in the re t "ton of the duty, they would be obliged to give an advan- A t ge af one penny in the price charged to their purchasers. Y chi means they would be losers to the extent of one farthing 1 11 Pee each paper. By way of compensation for this disadvan . - 1 1 1 gc , he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had propose d in Inl and instance to strike off half the advertisement duty in sorter ; but having been subsequently in communication with d of the gentlmen representing the Irish Newspapers, 404 k- es t he with two of them who were attached to very that the political principles, and having been informed by them penny the continnance of a discount of 25 per cent. upon the the e s t-I a : 4 ° ll ld be infinitely more advantageous (whilst than the% e d o l tio : revenue would. certainly not be greater) felt di. of half the duty upon advertisements, he Posed q t P o es T l to yield to their wishes, and accordingly now pro , Per ten.; a dd a elatlSe to the Bill, by which a discount of 25 Nbl- j a ''' s nould be allowed upon the stamp of Newspapers 's ed i n I, The clause nd. ~ Mr. i d T .,!e having been brought up, ,Whe n f .' - ', ME declared himself decidedly opposed to it. I pia,„. ,T., ' e ,"' oPportunity occurred like the present for a.ssimi 'lid I T ,- ' important part of the laws of the two countries, he he re ° ,,`.2tee why there should be a higgling about a farthing Plai n "'tin -farthing there. The right course was a perfectly 1ana . ... °11 ,„- - , let the law be the same in Ireland as in Eng- The-k gear, hea r .) he uni I'IANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER b egge d to lar4r.,r•erstood that in proposing this clause he was making no Ali th em Mession t o I reland than he at first proposed to do. , cotlntr at h e Was anxious to do was to give to public in that at t h e Y the whole benefit of the reduction of the stamp, and Prot. v•ri • et ors .'aille time t o i mpose no wrong upon the newspaper Mr. Ail „ Would wilt; thought that exactly the same argument tow(' not to-the English newspapers as to the Irish. He np nr , o,"°t conceive wh b there should be a less duty imposed te.-I:Te published in Ireland than upon those published in ner' n . u :—( Hear, hear.) Much was constantly said of the 1 4w - : s sitY Of having ' equal laws for both countries. If equal ~ :ere necessary, why wilfully establish an inequality in . ""s mr atte r of newspaper stamps? —( Hear, hear.) lio n .' G • F. YOUNG thought if the suggestion of the Right s?— lion . Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer were ac pa?a El to, th I , ' the an would he obliged to reverse the present po tliatros-rY, and call out "Justice for England !" He thought p ul. no most consistent course of legislation for the House to ix,:ite would be to assimilate the duties of the two countries 4,very respect. thalhe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contended Per unless this discount were allowed, the English Newspa (hti... Proprietor would have an advantage over the Irish News- Per Proprietor The difference in the Stamp Duty inEng e4cl would • farthin • enabl e the English proprietor to put an additional this discount g. Into his pocket, whilst to the Irish proprietor, unless ~, . were allowed, it would have the effect of taking ~(I..rtii.ing out of his pocket. 1, at, •KOBINSON did not see what the House of Commons Irish do between the Irish Newspaper proprietors and the a n : Publie•( Hear, hear.) He thought that the duty should _ 7 Zactly alike in both countries, and that the Newspaper Jo oprietors should be left to deal in the best way they could with the public. In his opinion, the Irish Newspapers had 10 0 loug been allowed to enj oy an advantage over the English cosantrie Pap ers • and now that, they wer e a l ter i ng t h e stamp i n both s, h e thought t hat the amount of the duty ought to be perfectly assimilated. With that feeling he should most de cidedly oppose the addition of this clause the Bill. ~___M_ r: H Uni."E thought if there were not to be a perfect simi 4 ,rity in the amount of the duty, it would be better to repeal {h e Whole of it. of -14,,r• ROBINSON clearly perceived that Under the colour a uowing a discount this was nothing more no less than an att entr . . . ;„ .- to establish a three-farthing instead ota penny stamp in and. Enlll , r:. BAINES saw no reason to object to the proposition rteined in the clause. The proprietors of newspapers in a,,g,land? be knew, were not opposed to it—the public in Eng au could not be dissatisfied with it_ by then should a few 'Gentlemen in that House, who knew nothine about the matter, til e d, as he supposed, could have no possible interest, think it l e.essary to rais e so strong an opposition to a suggestion •0 i tl iteh to el 4 and re e as on ry able? one but themselves a p peared to be perfectly v ChtUl4r- W YSE expre sse d hi s d eterm i nation to support the se. p r . WAKLEY could not conceive why there should be Tarr-farthing tax upon papers in England and only a three s', ng tax upon papers in Ireland.—( Hear, hear. Why h is ata there not be a perfect equality between the tw o ? For al e Part, however, he would not entreat the Right Hon. Gen il,,lsau. the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to withdraw this r'"Position with respect to the stamp in Ireland ; on the con- ThaortYtt,_he would request him to adhere stanchly to it, trusting / li fe ne House of Commons would relieve him from any further v..irssuelty upon that point by compelling him to adopt the same uumt with respect to England. Whi ch er a few Words from Mr. Alderman THOMPSON, % ,, a. _ Were not distinctly audible, in the gallery, the clause ;., r ead a first time. ‘Ja rho • , Noce . question that it bo read a sec on d time, the di.vided. Corn • • For the second reading A gainst it . .... 52 Air. R Majority —37 a ti ttel. ,e OB INSON then move d t h at the word " Ireland " be ePapir th e cl,e with a vi ew o f equalising the duty in both parts of Air. Gr,,,, . e t i a soo " , - , FE said that he had given his previous vote under nception. His strong conviction was, that the amount 'have h a ought to be the same in both countries. He would t a i:.,a , .d a•Jower rate of duty in each, but as he could not ob ivlt he would vote for a hiher in both. f . •Ir• WAKLEY trusted if he could not obtain an addi aeto , e to refuse aefit for England, he should not act so illiberally as if ther se it to Ireland ; but he was prepared to contend, that ;r uin!, !ate of duty were not the same both 'in England and prov incial 1. gross injustice would be committed against the 'Mr, a newspapers of England. b oth _ JERVIS advocated the equalisation of the duty in ccentrics. th..,,,sCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reminded ~r ‘ Ltis t itise of the circumstances under which he had originally a" c "Jio_ e ad the penyduty, and denied that he could fairly be U 3 a of any departure _from the principle he then stated. ' He would only say that he should gain considerably by this smal duty in Ireland, and that if the duty were equalised he should lose from 60,000/. to 70,0001. a year. The concession sought for was a mere concession of revenue, which he was not prepared to make. Mr. GOULBURN considered that after the House had sanctioned the Right H rn. Gentleman's proposition for a penny duty in all parts of the empire, he should be merely acting in furtherance of his original proposal by voting for the amendment. Mr. ROBINSON said that if the Right Hon. Gentleman found himself in difficulty in consequence of losing the sup port of some of his friends who would have supported a general penny duty, it would only be because he had been the very first to depart from his original plan. Mr. F. BARING begged the Hon. Gentleman and the House to remember that his Right Hon. Friend in his original speech had expressly stated his intention to give some addi tional relief beyond the penny duty to the Irish Newspapers. The House would do well not to reject the proposal of his Right Hon. Friend; but if they did, he would have a fair right to fall back upon his original intention. Mr. ARTHUR TREVOR considered that the reduction of the duty, so far from being any relief to the community, would be the means of scattering abroad a large mass of nui sance and a large mass of mischief. If this mischief were to be done, however, let it be done fairly and aboveboard, and let them deal equally with both countries.--( A laugh.) No man in the House was more strongly opposed to the principle of the reduction than himself; but if it were to be made, he would have it made equally. Mr. BLACKSTONE protested against the Irish people, who were taxed to a far less amount than the English, deri. ving any greater pecuniary relief, it it were only to the extent of a farthing. The Committee divided on the amendment— Against the amendment lO6 In favour 6l Majority 45 The Committee again divided on the clause— In favour of it lO4 Against it Majority —25 Mr. GROTE then rose to propose the insertion of the fol lowing clause :—" And be it enacted, that in the stamp to be affixed to each and every Newspaper under the provisions of this Act, the title of such Newspaper shall be expressed in such convenient manner Mad form as the said Commissioners of Stamps and Taxes shall appoint ; and the said Commis sioners shall cause a proper die or stamp for such Newspaper to be prepared under their direction, and a new or other stamp or die to be from time to time prepared in like manner as they shall think necessary ; and the reasonable costs and expenses of preparing such stamps or dies shall be from time to time defrayed by the proprietor of each such Newspaper, and paid when and as required by the said Commissioners to such person as the said Commissioners shall appoint to receive the same, before any paper shall be stamped under the direction of such Commissioners for each such Newspaper." This proposition was partially stated on a former evening when the Bill was in Committee, and it seemed to be received with some degree of favour : he, therefore, could not but hope that the Right Hon. Gentleman would now accede to it. He was sure that it must be a very great and paramount object with every Gentleman of that House to have the official returns of the circulation of Newspapers framed in the most accurate manner possible. He was, however, sorry to say that the returns, stating the various comparative numbers of stamps taken out by the newspapers of this country, had been anything but accurate. In the last return made to the House, it was found that there were no less than 20 Newspapers which appeared never to have been supplied with stamps at all, while many others had affixed to them number's of stamps issued by the Stamp-office, bearing a very small proportion to their known circulation. For want of accuracy in the stamp-returns, several papers, the Sherborne Journal, and the Liverpool Mercury, for instance, had had credit for a very small circulation, whereas the num ber of their publications was very considerable. Now he w a s sure it was not the dispositi on of any Hon. gentleman to give the proprietors of any Newspaper the advantage of an apparent superiority in circulation, whereby they might acquire a greater degree of reputation and of priority over others than the intrin sic worth of their Newspaper entitled them to. The Chan cellor .ef the Exchequer appeared to be so far sensible of the mischief that had arisen from the present state of the law on the subject that he was content to allow any Newspaper that thought fit to employ a die peculiar to itself, to do so option ally. But the Right Hon. Gentleman must perceive that this would not be a sufficient remedy against the evil complained of; because those newspaper proprietors who were most will ing to resort to the ordinary means of giving to themselves credit for a greater circulation than they in reality bad, were precisely that class who would not use the optional stamp. The House, perhaps, was not aware that to a great degree the number of advertisements in a newspaper did not depend merely upon the weight or authority of the paper, but upon its circulation ; and that there was, therefore, a strong temptation to the proprietors to have recourse to means by which they might appear to the public to have a much greater circulation than they actually had. This temptation to de ceive was considerably increased by the facilities afforded to the parties, by the present system pursued at the Stamp-office. It was to amend that system that he now brought forward this clause, and he could not anticipate any serious ground of ob jection to the proposition h© was about to tocu.o. It could not occasion any inconvenience to the newspaper proprietors themselves; for it could be no more inconvenience to them to have a stamp with a peculiar title, than to have it without it ; and as to the expense, it was too trifling to be mentioned. He had never heard of any one newspaper being publicly hostile to such a plan ; while, on the other hand, every fair and honest proprietor must be desirous that his neigh bours should be relieved from the disadvantages they laboured under from the present system. He did not, therefore, anti cipate any opposition from the fair and honest proprietors of newspapers. It had been stated as an objection to his propo sal, that by the present system one country newspaper could borrow stamps from another, and by that means they could publish their full complement of circulation, whereas if there was a distinct die this could not be done. Now to this argu ment he would in the first place observe, that country proprie tors ought, surely, like all other tradesmen, have sufficient foresight to make provision for their ordinary, or even for any extra, circulation of their paper. But in the second place, this argument could be of no avail whatever, inasmuch as the Right Hon. Gentleman had himself, by the 173 d clause of this Bill, made it illegal for one paper to transfer stamps to another. He therefore trusted that his proposition did not bear with any degree of hardship upon the newspaper pro prietors themselves, it would not meet with any opposition. The clause was then brought up and read. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt bound to object to the present clause. He wished it to be distinctly understood that this clause, whilst it imposed a restraint upon the Newspapers, was in no respects necessary to protect or se cure the revenue of the country. He also begged to state to the committee that, by the post of this day, a circular letter had been addressed by the Board of Stamps to all Newspa pers, stating that any one who wished to have a distinctive die, indicative of their own paper, upon paying the expense thereof, a die would be at once prepared. Therefore, the only question between his Hon. Friend and himself was— whether it should be obligatory on all papers, whether they liked it or not, to 'have a distinctive die. Now, what was the argument of his Hon. Friend ? He said, and said truly, that the House had been accustomed, from time to time, to call for returns of stamps, with a view to ascer tain the extent of the circulation of newspapers; and that those returns were delusive. By reason of that delusion, those returns gave an unfair representation of the extent of the business of the respective newspapers, and so enabled, and thereby enabled, certain of them to deceive the public as to the extent of their circulation, which materially affected the interest of others on the subject of advertisements. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) believed he had fairly stated the argument. Now he should say to his Honourable Friend, that the proper way of meeting this case was, not by imposing restrictions on Newspaper in order to avert the inconvenient consequences resulting from a wrong step originally taken, but it was by avoiding for the future to take that step which was wrong. He held it that the Legislature had no more right to inquire into the - number of papers which any particular news paper establishment circulated, than it had to inquire into the number of stamps which bad been used in an attorney's office. —( Hear, hear.) In fact, they had no more right to inquire into the private concerns of a Newspaper establishment than they had to inquire into the private concerns of any other de- , scription of business. This had always been his opinion, and he had consequently always resisted the production of these returns. They were delusive accounts, and could not be re lied on. He always cortended, and would still contend, that so long as a Newspaper avoided the commission of any offence or fraud on the revenue it ought to be left fully free and un fettered as to the mode of its carrying on its own business. This subject of a distractive die had been pressed upon his attention by various persons connected with the News paper press, who attached very great importance to it. His answer always had betn, " It might be very well for you to make a peculiar mark on your paper; you shall have it if you ask for it ; but I hay, no right to impose upon nine-tenths of the newspaper-press t regulation which is of no use as far as regards the revenue, and which they do not ask for, although you do." He therefor; left it open to all parties to avail them selves of the power cf using a distinctive die or not, as they pleased. But it hadbeen asked how he could reconcile his ob jection to a distinctly die with the 173 d clause, by which it was rendered penal br any newspaper to buy stamps issued to any other newspaper He would tell his Hon. Friend how this could be reconciled. The 173 d clause was a revenue clause, and was inseted in order to prevent the possibility of forging stamps or of getting stamps improperly. By this clause the Stamp-eflce would be enabled to trace any stamp back to the newspaper which had received it from the office. That was the sole object of the clause, and not to inquire into the business of nevspaper proprietors or of any other parties. These were the gnunuts upon which he objected to this clause. But there was amber ground. If by passing this clause he should be compelled to !rile out distinctive stamps for the 250 newspa pers that were putished in the country, he must postpone the commencement d the Bill from the time it was now proposed to come into operaton, because it would be utterly impossible to get the dies tady, and to have all the arrangements made by the period new fixed. But if the Bill should be carried in its present foiy, and if the use of the die (adopted option ally) should be fiend to answer, and no inconveniences should arise from it, thin he for one should not object at a future period to propoc to make that which he thought ought at first to be a fee and voluntary plan obligatory upon all parties. But he was reluctant now to impose such a regulation pen the newspapers of the whole United Kingdom, whq, in point of fact, only a few considered it of any importace. Another objection to the adoption of the clause was the : suppose a newspaper should chang e its title—a thing by no means improbable, the consequence would be thatle die !pug be changed ; and then the whole stock of stamps which that establishment might happen to have would be lost, or the stamps must be changed. This would, at all events, occasion great difficulty. The plan cer tainly would neither increase nor lessen the revenue ; upon the question of revenue, therefore, he could have no objec tion to it ; but for the reasons he had stated, and as it would operate severely upon some parties, he felt bound to oppose the clause. Mr. LEADER said that, according to the 'provision of the Right Hon. Gentleman's Bill, it was made illegal to transfer stamps from one paper to another. Now by the .adoption of this clause the Right Hon. Gentleman had the power entirely in his own hands; for the very best possible means to prevent stamps going from one person to another was by requiring the use of a die by each Newspaper. It would not require many days preparation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER here in terposed, and as the Right Hon. Gentleman addressed himself to Mr. Leader and not to the House, it. was impossible for the reporters to catch the purport of his words. Mr. LEADER continued—At any rate, he thought there would be no difficulty in providing the stamps at the Stamp office. If there was, then the clause might be postponed for six months before it came into operation. All the dies might surely be prepared by that time. The Right Hon. Gentle man had said that the House of Commons had no right to the returns of stamps consumed by the Newspapers.—( Hear, hear.) But he (Mr. Leader) would maintain that the) had a right to those returni. Newspapers were not merely private propriety. The population were so much inter ested in their proceedings that they had a right to know the extent of their operations. Indeed, they might almost look Won newspapers as a species of public property. Besides, how was that House, or how were the public to know, unless the Stamp -office gave a true account 7of the number of stamp: issued by them, that the sum received for the newspaper stamps was not misappropriated or embezzled? He, therefore, could not see on what ground these returns could be refused. He was the person who moved for these returns, and he had since received letters from every part of the country complaining of the inaccuracy of the returns, and accusing him for having moved for them. His answer to the parties was, that at was their own fault—it was their fault for allowing agents in Lon don to take out stamps in other person's 'names for their use. They could not blame the Stamp-office, but themselves, for not taking out stamps according to law. If there was a dis tinctive die - it would be utterly impassible for any advantage of an extensive circulation to be taken away from any news paper. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that it was a restriction upon newspapers ; but in his (Mr. Leader's) opi nion it was no restriction at all ; lie therefore hoped the com mittee would adopt the clause. Dr. BO WRING thought that the adoption of a distinctive die should be permissive. Those who used it would obtain credit with the public for their plain-dealing, while 'those who did not would always be under the opprobrium that there was some motive which they dared not avow, which induced them to conceal their circulation. The Right Hon. Gentleman having allowed proprietors of newspapers to obtain that secu rity which the making known to the world the full extent of their circulation by the use of a distinctive die would give them, had done all he could. Were they to call upon every Newspaper to adopt a die, they would be establishing a despo tism which was quite unnecessary. Those who used the die would have all the benefit of a contradistinction from those who did not use it. There would consequently be a motive constantly operating to induce the person who had a great cir culation to obtain a distinctive die. Those who did not apply for it would be under the disadvantage of being supposed to shrink from that test as to the extent of their circulation, which other persons were willing to appeal to. Mr. G. R. ROBINSON observed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had looked at the question as it regarded the revenue, and next as it affected the proprietors of news papers themselves; but ho begged to observe that there was a third party who bad a great interest in this question, and that was the public at large. It was well known that the trading part of the community was enabled to give pub licity to the different branches of the public of the goods they had to dispose of through the medium of advertise ments, and it was also known that the public decided from the relative extent of the circulation of the papers as to which paper they would advertise in. The only question, then, that appeared to be in issue was, whether the public had an interest in knowing what papers were bona fide of great circulation; and if so, whether they were en titled to have returns from the Stamp-office to give them that information. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said they ought not. But he (Mr. Robinson) would maintain that the public ought to have some tangible means of knowing what paper was of the greatest circulation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he had gone as far as he could go, by giving the parties the option of using a distinctive die if they pleased. But that would not effect the object desired; the proposition, therefore, was, that it should be obligatory. To this he (Mr. Robinson) agreed. The only objection he had heard was, that it would prevent the present Bill going into operation so soon as it' was now proposed : but that might be obviated by requiring the distinctive die to be adopted at a later period. He did not think the other objection, that of having a stock of stamps on hand, if the title of the paper were changed, was of any weight. Such stamps might easily be changed for others. On. the whole, he thought the plan was a good one, and against which no newspaper had any right to complain. The public would, at all events, receive this advantage from it--they would obtain some tangible and official evidence as to what papers enjoyed the highest amount of circulation. Sir ROBERT PE EL did not see the force of the objec tion made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the propo sition of the Hon. Member for the city of London. He did not see.why, consistently with the alteration they were about to make in the- law, they should not go one step further, and impose on all newspapers the use of a distinctive die. There might be an objection to this in point of time, but in point of Principle, he thought there could not be any; because, by the 173 d clause it was made penal for any person to take out stamps in the name of one paper to be used by another. It was therefore required that the narty should take out stamps for his own use only. It was also required that a return should be made of the number of stamps so taken out, so that the Stamp-office would always know what the extent of the circu• lation of each newspaper was. The question whether the num ber of stamps issued to each newspaper should be published or not, would remain precisely the same whether the clause pro posed were adopted or rejected. It did not follow as a neces. sar consequence that if each newspaper were required to u istinctjve die, therefore the public would know how m stamps were taken out. The Right Honourable Gen tleman might still resist the publication of the number of stamps issued upon the ground that the principle was not a right principle. Whether the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman would be a valid argument or not, he (Sir Robert Peel) would not stop to inquire. Be it as it might, the adoption of the present clause would leave the principle the same. The Right Hon. Gentlemen had said that under his optional clause newspapers which were of extensive circula tion would take out the die, and those which did not would lie under the opßrobrium of being of small circulation. But if, in point of fact, you indirectly required them to take out a die, or else subject them to be the objects of opprobrium, why will you not go to the length of saying—that the law requires you should should take out the die? It appeared to him to be infinitely better to take one or the other of these courses. Either to say, the newspaper proprietors should be at liberty to transfer stamps from one to the other ; or to say, they should take out the die. But to say that it should be altogether per missive, was altogether delusory. Unless effectual security were taken, nothing could be accomplished. He was not aware that any objection existed to the adoption of the die. The ex pense would be exceeding trifling. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The expense would be very trifling. Sir R. PEEL—It would be so small, that it could be no objection in itself. Then it could be no restriction. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Oh, none. Sir R. PEEL thought, therefore, that taking out a die would, upon the whole, be perfectly fair. It would be the most effectual security to all parties, as it would still remain for the House at any time to determine whether or not returns should be made to show the actual amount of circulation of each Paper.—( Hear.) He, therefore, for, himself, not having heard on the part of the Newspapers any objection to the taking out of the die, was rather inclined to-Support the proposition; of the Hon. Member for the City of London. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had already stated that personally he had no objection to the proposition, he only wished that it should he distinctly understood that this was not a provision for the sake of the revenue. If the proposition should be adopted, it would be proper to fh some date when the die should begin to be used. Mr. GROTE was understood to say that he had no objec tion to an interval of time being fixed when this particular clause should come into operation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—If there be no objection to this proposition, and if my Hon. Friend will reserve his clause until the bringing up the Report, I will con sider the question ; as I shall not myself have any objection to the proposition. .The clause was then postponed. `Mr. CHARLES BULLER moved the insertion of a clause which was agreed to; but both the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman, and the Clerk at the table who read the clause, were equally inaudible. The schedules were then proposed. Mr. GO ULBURN stated that they had now come to a part of the Bill to which be wished to call the attention of the House, because lie was satisfied that if the House considered the subject they would agree with him in the amendment' that he had to propose. The clause now under discussion pro posed that in future the liinited size of the Newspapers to be printed upon, subjected to the penny duty, should be 1,530 superficial inches. As the law stood at present there was no restriction whatever on the size of Newspapers. The removal of any such restriction had been introduced into Parliament in the year 1825, he believed, by the late Mr. Huskisson. Up to theyear 1825, it was quite true there had been a restriction upon the size of Newspapers. In 1825 the. subject under went discussion in Parliament, and on the representation that it was injurious to trade, and caused a loss to the revenue, Parliament thought it best to take off the restriction upon the size of the newspapers.—(Hear, hear.) Up to the present moment there was no restriction as to size, though there was as to price. The present Bill proposed to introduce a new restriction upon the press. When he had the honour, upon a former occasion, of presenting a petition from the proprietors of newspapers, he observed that the size which appeared to him the most fitting was one which would subject to an increased duty a considerable portion of the press, that morning and evening papers to be affected by it. Experience too, he re marked, had proved that since 1825 the press and the public alike had gained from leaving it to each proprietor of a newspaper to adopt that size which he thought best. Now, he considered that if Parliament thought it right to alter TIM SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, JULY 19, 1836. the law, this, at least, ought to be done—to leave all the pro prietors of newspapers upon an equal footing. It was not just to select such a size for all newspapers as would give to one particular newspaper the benefit of that which ought to be a general enactment. When, too, they considered what was likely to be the effect of the intended change, and what were now the expectations of the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he really trusted and believed that the House would have no reason to regret the amend ment which he meant to propose.—.(,Dear, hear.) Now he could say that the real question between his Right Hon. Friend and himself eras this—would, he allow the margin in the superficial measurement of the newspaper? If his Right Hon. Friend would not take off the margin, then the re was very good ground for complaint. He would note ask his Right Hon. Friend to leave an unlimited discretion to proprietors of newspapers for the future. But he did ask his Right Hon. Friend not to interfere with the property and trade of those already established. He assured the House that the ques tion of the margin of newspapers was now the whole question before them. More than this he did not ask for. Upon every just principle he considered it ought to he conceded. If it were conceded, the interests of trade would not be interfered with, and the public would be gratified. He had heard a great deal upon former occasions as to the imposing of duties and in terfering with the conduct of men in the managemsnt of their business. The reports upon the table from the Commissioners of Excise pointed out the injury done to trade by restrictions of this nature. He asked of his Right Hon. Friend to concede on this point to what was the universal opinion of all those ex amined on the question of taxation, that duties ought not to be imposed which interfered with the management of a trade by those already embarked in it.--(Hear.) Such an incon venience, he conceived, would be the necessary result of his Right Honourable Friend's proposing a high duty upon all papers beyond a limited size. The tax, in the manner pro• posed, it was almost impossible to collect with accuracy, for it was allowed that there was the greatest difficulty in limiti ng to the precise size th e p aper brougt in order to be stamped. I'he reams of paper were sold by weight, and in opening those reams the sheets differed from each other, so much so, in the number of inches, that an honest proprietor, desiring strictly to conform to the law and to have his paper within the prescribed limits, might still, without any fault of his own, have in some reams the paper exceeding in length what the law required, and thus be subject to an additional duty, or to heavy penalty if the duty was not paid. Was it just, then, when a person was' unable to measure the individual sheets, that heshould be subjected to a penalty?-(.Hear.) This was certainly interfering with the private trader in a manner that vas most injurious to the trader ; and it was doing so with eat conferring the least advantage upon the public. Now, if they adopted the superficial matter printed—if there were to be 1,530 inches of printing allowed, that was what every man would be competent to regulate.— ( Hear, hear, hear.) Thus, they would have a test for controlling`the size of the Newspapers, and one too with which the individual would be able to comply. This would be one which the individual could execute, and which, if he transgressed, he would be justly liable to a penalty. As this .vas a matter concerning trade, and considering the interests already embarked in it, the capital laid out in machinery for printing papers of a particul ar s i ze , t h e i n j ur i ous resu l ts t h at might follow if some such proposition were not adopted, he was sure that his Right Hon. Friend could not but be in duced to accede to the amendment which - he now proposed.— ( Hear, hear.) If the duty were to continue as it then was, it would be found, he was sure, very inconvenient in principle and as regarded a matter of finance. Such must be the case .f his Right Hon. Friend persisted in making papers beyond a particular size pay an additional half-penny duty. He could say, as a measure of finance, his Right Hon. Friend would find that if he thus checked the size of Newspapers, he would lose more by it on account of the loss of duty from advertise ments than must be the consequence of such a plan. He would lose more by advertisement duty than he could gain from the additional stamp on the Newspapers. His Right Honourable Friend might tell him that the addi tional duty was required as a postage upon the increased size -if the newspapers. That might be a good argument as re larded the Post-office. That department might think it con venient to impose such an additional duty ; but that was not a question for the Government. The Government was not to look to the loss or gain of the Post-office, but to the gain or loss of the revenue.—( Hear, hear.) If it appeared that the duty upon advertisements would increase the revenue more than the halfpenny upon Newspapers for additional postage, then the Government would be wise not to bring any measure Forward which would have the effect of imposing that addi tional duty.—(Hear, hear.) He was really at a loss to con ceive on what arguments were urged the expediency of the proposed alteration. Was ho to be told that this was the argument? That it was not proper that one Newspaper Should have a monopoly of advertisements—that it had that monopoly already, and that it would be better to distribute those advertisements amongst a greater number of News papers ? He did not know whether that was or not an argu nent used upon the other side. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER denied that it was. Mr. GOULBURN continued hy rcemarking that his Right lion. Friend declared that it was not, then he should not tress it further. It had been urged that there was no neces ;ity for imposing this restriction, which parties embarking their capital in Newspapers had no right to anticipate. The restriction proposed was one that intorrorod with tho progress of trade, and which, if fit to be applied at all, should be only applied to newspapers hereafter to be printed. The words he should propose to be added were " exclusive of the margin." He did think this was the best mode of effecting the object lie had in view, that of giving the necessary protection to the proprietors of Newspapers for any variance in the size of their papers. He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite could not object to his proposition. If there were any objec tions to the particular form in which his amendment was sub mitted, he should he most willing to change it, so as that he could effect the object he had in view.—( Hear. ) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was rejoiced that this subject had been brought before the House by his Right Hon. Friend. Hon. Gentlemen, he trusted, would recollect the statements he had made when the plan then under discussion was first submitted by him to the House. He had anticipated that he could, upon every sheet of Newspapers conveyed by the post, obtain a penny duty. He found, however, that papers might, according to the mode lately adopted, be extended to an unlimited size. He felt that it was necessary, when lowering the duty, to restrict the size of the newspapers. It appeared to him actually neces sary to do this as connected with the subject of their convey 'ince by post.—( Hear, hear.) In order, then, to come to a con clusion upon this point, lie took the maximum of a single sheet of the largest sized Newspaper published. But then comes the case of a double sheet, or rather of two sheets made up into one. Then it occurred to him as to the double sheet, looking at the dimensions of a northern paper, if they allowed the double sheet, then the sheet of 1,530 inches, the size of that paper, might be doubled, and for all this to be carried for a single penny he did not think was fair or reasonable.— (Hear, hear, hear.) It was upon this ground that he determined upon the restriction of the size.—( Hear, hear. ) The proposition of his Hon. Friend was, however, a different one, and he thought it came recommended with some considerations which entitled it to very great weight._ (Hear, hear.) It was true that the mere restriction of the size of the newspaper might sometimes produce inconveniences, because to produce all the sheets of the same size was not at all times possible. Then came the proposition to limit that which was competent to be done, to a defined quantity, the matter used for the purposes of printing, merely varying the super ficial quantity of paper to the actual printed part of the sheet. —( Hear, hear.) The result of this proposition would, he thought, be to gain the object that he had in view, and it would protect him from being called upon to convey by Rost papers of an undefined size. Then, in that case, the propo sition appeared to him to be a reasonable one.—( Hear, hear.) He was quite sure that his Right Hon. Friend was aware that by establishing this restriction lie had no per sonal object in view—his only object was the protection. With the understanding that the object he had in view could not be interfered with by the proposition of his Hon. Friend, he was willing to concede to it. Both desired to obtain the same end, the restriction to a particular quantity of what was to be published in a newspaper, so as to limit the size. Mr. GOULBURN conceived that nothing could be fairer or more satiafactory than the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend. M. HUME observed that as the limitation seemed to be adopted for the purpose of postage, he wished to know why country papers which only printed upon half the limited size, should not be charged but a half-penny duty. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that they had discussed the whole of this case upon the basis of a penny duty being charged. If they were now to enter into the consideration of discussing the propriety of a half penny duty in certain cases, they would be abandoning the principle upon which the measure was founded. Sir R. PEEL considered there were still stronger reasons to be offered in opposition to the proposed change. It was to be observed, that when newspapers published a double sheet, they did not do so without _giving an equivalent to the public. A newsp a p er published a double sheet, not because it had a double quantity of news ; but a double quantity of advertisements, upon every one of which there was a duty of ls. 6d. Though they allowed such papers to publish with a penny duty, they would not be losers by doing so. For insta nce , t h ere was the Times newspaper from which a sum of more than 10,0001. a year was received by the public—a sum much more than sufficient to cover the penny duty.—( Hear, hear.) It was infinitely better then not to have the lintitation proposed. He was quite sure he would be found, without that limitation that a newspaper would never publish a double sheet without giving to the public a sum equal in value to what at le as t cou ld be received in postage. Placing the restriction upon what was printed, was, he consi dered, infinitely better than placingjit upon the paper. If placed upon the latter, it might so happen that in the same edition the paper was so rapidl y cut off b y the steam-engine, t h a t a hundred papers would be subjected to the increased duty, and another hundred free from the increased duty. He thought it then perfectly fair, as the principle was to be acted on, that the margin should not be included in the valuation, but only the quantity which was under typ e . The amendment was then agreed to. Mr. HUME wished to know from the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, what was to be the definition of a Newspaper under this Act. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that they made nothing a newspaper which was not a news_ paper under the existing law. In the 60th George these words were included, " Or upon any matter in Church or State." Now, a history of the Reformation might he considered a matter relating to the Church, and a history of the reign of Queen Elizabeth a matter relating to the State. lie intended ,to leave out these words. sir R. PEEL hoped, as there was a change about to take place in the law, that the Right Hon. Gentleman would take care to protect the copyright of the proprietors of newspapers. The circumstances of newspapers were now about to be changed. Almost a revolution was about to take place in the conduct of newspapers. They were about to destroy that which some called a monopoly, and other parties declared to be the cause of the high character of the Eng lish Press, in this respect at least, the pre-eminence of its intelligence.—( Hear, hear, hear.) When they were about to mako so great a change as was then going to take place, they ought to give to the proprietors of newspapers the security of their copyright for a limited period, and that by an easy remedy ; for unless it could be secured by a summary process it would be entirely useless. Of all the phenomenon of civil society he doubted whether they could remark one so great as this—the mode in which the public was supplied with intelligence through the means of newspapers.—( Hear.) It was one of the most wonderful instances of what could be done, without the intervention of Government, by private exertions and great expense, this which they daily witnessed—the manner in which the public was supplied with intelligence—and the possession of which was a source alike of instruction and amusement.—( Cheers.) Some might say that there was less intelligence in the Press of this than of other countries. He did not entertain that opinion. Free discussion must be conducted—he knew it could not be avoided—with acrimony, and frequently with personalities ; but comparing, upon the whole, the Press of this country with that of France, or of the United States, or with any Press that now exists, or ever did exist, they could not find such a remarkable instance, as in England, of ability and intelligence. Putting aside other considerations, let them look to the intelligence obtained by the public through private means; there was in it the most remarkable instance of the superiority of that Press. Unless, then, they did secure the copyright of that intelligence for a few h ours — an d t h at was the only mode in which a reward could be obtained for it it was the only inducement that could be held out to the parties to continue their exertions in supplying it. Now that there was an end to be put to what was called a monopoly, if they did not make some regulation to prevent those who made no exertions to deprive others of the results of those exertions— if they did not do this, then they would soon deprive the public of all the advantages of such exertions being made._( Hear, hear.) In the course of the session he hoped the Hon. Gen tleman would devise means to prevent the pirating of the title of a newspaper for the purpose of imposing upen the public. Also, that the'copyright should be secured with certain limits to those who go to the expense of many thousands to obtain in telligence, so that they might be encouraged to persevere. This could only be done, first, by securing the copyright, and next,giving in its aid some summary process.--( Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was glad to find this subject introduced by the Right Honourable Baronet. He considered that the change imposed upon them the obligation of protecting the property vested in those concerns. Nothing could be more unfair than to allow that property to be taken from them. Applying to the proceed ings of this _House, he should say that it was not strictly regular to refer to them. There was no part of the ma chinery of the press more wonderful than this, that they should at their breakfast table find a record printed of what they were then saying, and what would be stated there up to three and four o'clock in the morning, and this, too, done with singular accuracy --considering the difficulties under which they were often taken, with exceeding accuracy and general fairness. —(Hear.) All this was procured at an ex pense for which the proprietors of newspapers must have to pay dearly. Now, the rapidity of printing would enable per sons to take advantage of the capital and labour of others. It was not fair that those who had not laboured-nor expended capital should thus despoil those who expended both. He was, therefore, most anxious and willing to devise some scheme to put a stop to such practices. He was most anxious to devise some effectual plan for protecting such pro perty. As to the protection of the title of newspapers, that could be undoubtedly given. It would be the more easy to do this, for, according to the plan of the Member for the City of London, there would be a distinct die for each paper, which would mark that particular paper. Then as to the leading articles, it was easy to protect them. But when they came to that which was not an original, but a copy, they could not say how many copies were taken from the same original. It would be exceedingly difficult to prove this in a court of jus tice. Two persons might say they had taken measures to have the same report—that they had persons reporting as well as the others. Now how was this to be met, unless by givit,g evi dence of the notes from which the report was taken ?—( Hear.) In the case of foreign intelligence, also, which was procured at a great sacrifice both of labour and capital, undoubtedly it was a matter of great interest and importance to receive dis patches of this kind from Spain or Russia, and other parts in which events of great public moment were going forward ; but at the same time he must add, that great difficulty would be found in coming to any arrangement whereby to identify intel ligence of this kind with the paper it might happen to have been originally printed in. Now, with regard to the remedy. Undoubtedly, to be effectual, it should be summary.—( Hear, hear.) But here, also, it would be no easy matter for courts to decide in a summary manner upon questions of piracy of this description. Ile alluded to these particulars, not with any view to relieve, himself from the obligation under which he felt that both he and the House laid, of coming to some ar rangement on this subject. As he had before stated in the course of the evening, he had received a sketch of a proposed Bill, from parties connected with the London press, and they might rest assured that he would leave no effort untried to meet the question at the earliest opportunity, and he trusted he should do so in a way to give satisfaction to all.—(Hear.) Sir R. PE EL merely rose to add to what he had already stated, that he recollected many instances in which the first intelligence of important occurrences—particularly during the war—were received by Government through the means of newspaper establishments; and often of those papers which were at the time in opposition to the Government. The remaining elaii.?:es of the Bill were then gone through, and agreed to. Mr. BAINES inquired of the Chancellor of the Exche quer whether there was any thing in the Bill of a nature to ,prevent provincial newspaper printers receiving their stamps, as they.ldid at present, through the agency of a London sta tioner ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that he believed there was nothing in the Bill inconsistent with t;at mode of proceeding. The House then resumed, and the CHAIRMAN reported the Bill to the House. Mr. WA KLE Y moved, " That the Bill, as amended, be printed before it was again considered." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, be had no objection to the reprinting of the Bill; but he was anxious, if possible, to avoid the delay which that proceeding would occasion. Mr. WAKL E Y could see no reason for such excessive haste with regard to this measure. He thought if the third reading took place by the end of the week, or in the beginning of the next week, it would be quiet time enough. Mr. BAINES also thought it would be more satisfactory to reprint the Bill. Mr. HUME was also in favour of reprinting the Bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was un derstood to say, that "he would make arrangements for it." ESTABLISHED CHURCH BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the order of the day for the third reading of the Established Church Bill be read, and re-appointed to-morrow. Mr. HUME thought that as there were so many other mea sures of importance before the House, the Noble Lord ought not to hurry through the various Church Bills, which gad been brought in comparatively at a recent period, but defer them all, till next year. Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not consent to postpone this measure, and trusted it would be allowed to be read a third time to-morrow.—The motion was then agreed to. PAPER DUTIES BILL. On the proposal that this Bill be read a third time. Mr. T. D UNCO MBE objected to the 16th clause, as be in*. a violation of a patent held by Messrs. Stanbridge and protecting Marshall, them in the manufacture of a peculiar papier mache. They had laid their case before the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, and if a case of grievance was ever made out theirs was. On taking out their patent they applied to know whether it would come within the provisions of the excise laws, and they were told by the Solicitor of the Excise dial it would not: Thu patent was purchased by a Mr. Wil liams in 1833, at an expense of 5001. From him it passed to others, and in both cases application was made to know if the article came within the excise regulations , and the answer was as before in the negativ e . Samples of the article were given to the excise, and duplicates were kept, and now that it was proposed to bring this article within the excise laws the samples which had been given to the excise were not pro duced. Under circumstances like these he might be per mitted to ask, whether it was fair, through the jealousy of papermakers, to invalidate a patent which had already been a matter of traffic, and to introduce a clause affecting indivi duals into an Act of Parliament, giving them instead of th e full license of the patent only two years of the enjoyment of the same ? He should move as an amendment to the 16th clause that for the words two years" there should be sub stituted the words, " until the patent has expired." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said it would be inferred from the speech of the Hon. Gentleman that the clause was introduced fur the purpose of injuriously affecting the persons to whom allusion had been made, whilst, in reality, its object was to give them a qua lifi e d protection for two years from the taxation expressed by the Bill. He ad mitted that a communication had been had with the Board of Excise before the patent was taken out, and certain specimens were shown which they were told were not liable to Excise duties; but they were at the same time informed that if they applied their invention to the production of a new material the nature of that material must decide whether it was, or whether it would or would not, be liable to the excise duty. 'He would only again repeat that the object of the clause was to afford these parties protection to a certain extent. Mr. DUNCONIBE pressed his amendment: The House divided, when there appeared— For the clause For the amendment Majority The clause was then agreed to. COUNTY POLLS ELECTION BILL. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the third reading of this Bill. Colonel SIBTHORP contended that so important a Bill as this should not be read at that late hour of the night, and at that late period of the Session. He was himself opposed to the principle of the Bill, as it went to disqualify a large class of electors. The merits of the Bill were already fully discussed, and he thought there was not left a peg to hang an argument in favour of it upon, It was strange that so mischievous a =nitre could be countenanced by any Ministry; but he could not, on reflection, look on anything strange as coming from the present Government. He would move that the Bill be read that day six months. Aftera few words from Sir - C. KNIGHTLEY, Mr. FORBES moved the adjournment of the debate. The discussion required a full ,House, and more anxious attention. After a short conversational discussion the House divided, when there appeared— , For the motion of adjournmen,t Against it Majority On our re-admission to the gallery we found Lord J. RUSSELL descanting on the importance of the Bill, and saying that he would postpone the further considera tion of it till Thursday next. Then they would have a full opportunity of discussing the merits of the Bill. The further consideration was then postponed. LIGHTHOUSES BILL. -26 On the mo!lon of Mr. P. THOMSON the Lighthouse Bill was read a bird time. Several clauses were then brought up, which were if:N - 01..14 read a first, second, ano third timv. The Bill then passed. GREZK LOAN. _ . _ Lord PA LME.R.STON m o,ved for leave to bring in a Bill to "amend the Act of the 2d ane: 3d William IV., cap. 131., relative to the guarantee of the Greek Loan." He would not now enter into the general question, but merely state that France and England were prepared to perform their part of the treaty ; but that Russia objected to 0:0 so except under certain stipulations. This produced a diffict:lty which it was the object of the present Bill to remedy. Several. Hon. Members expressed their few! that they should have to record their dissent from the BiII, but would not oppose its first reading. The Bill was then read a first time. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned.at Two o'clock. DINNER TO MR. O'CONNELL AT ROCHESTEk. The Reformers of Rochester, Chatham, and Stroud, having determined to evince their sympathy in the wrongs of Ireland, and their readiness to respond to tlw call for justice put forth by that country's patriotic advocate and unceasing friend, invited Mr. O'Connell to a public dinner, which took place yesterday evening' at the Ball Inn, Ro - clii‘ster. At an early hour, several thousand persons, decorated with ribbons, and bearing handsome banners, proceeded to the appointed place, and arranged themselves in order for the procession. It was nor, however, until past two o'clock that the travelling car riage of Mr. O'Connell came in view. Upon Iris presenting himself he was received with loud and enthusiastic cheers fram the assembled thousands. On reaching the has.d of the procession, he was met by T. Bentley. Esq., who, on the part of a deputation, consisting of the leading men of the Radical party, requested he would leave his carriage and take a seat in an open barouche, handsomely adorned for the occasion of the public entry into Rochester. Mr. O'Connell having com plied with his request, the procession formed, and in order proceeded to Rochestor, vires acquirens eundo. In his pas- - sage through Rochester Mr. O'Connell was received with every manifestation of applause. On reaching the precincts of Chatham the procession was met by several members of the Corporation and influential inhabitants, who, falling, into line, accompanied it the remainder of the appointed distance. Oa reaching a convenient space of ground in the Alilitary road, it was determined by Mr. O'Connell and his friends to stop the procession, in order to give him an opportunity of addressing the people. At least sixteen thousand persons were in view at this moment, but notwithstanding the great anxiety to approach the carriage, the utmost order was observed. Mr. O'CONNELL proceeded to make the following address : Men of Kent, I bless God for the conjunction which we now ace. I - bless God that the period has at length arrived when the constitutional liberties of Englishmen are knit up and hound together with the freedom of the ill-governed land of my birth.--( Cheers.) The happy conjuncture is arrived, the period has at length come, when the Tories, in being my ene mies, are yours—when those who seek to oppress my country, in doing so pass the weapon through that which has given you birth.--( Cheers.) My business here is to appeal from the Tories to the people at large. In my political life at present I have two objects in view : first, I have to combine together all classes cf Reformers.—( Cheers.) At all events, I want to advise all classes of Reformers to combine together, and then, when I succeed, as I think and hope I shall succeed, I want' to unite together, in an indissoluble Lend, based upon the principles of equal rights and privileges, the people of Eng land, Ireland, and Scotland.—( Loud cheers.) First, I want a union between Reformers; next, I want a real, permanent, and substantial union, not a mere parchment union, between three parts of the United Kingdom. lam myself a Radical, a thorough Radical.—(Loud cheers.) I have all my life thought that the radical cure was the only cure for all manner of dis eases.—( Hear, hear.) But though lam a Radical, lam at the same time as decided a supporter as any man of humble abilities can be, of the King's Government in the hands of the Whigs.—( Cheers.) My anxious wish is, that the Radicals throughout the kingdom should support the Whigs.—(A voice in the crowd, " They don't go far enough.") Why they don't go as far as I could wish them ; but would the cure for that be to stop them ?—(Laughter)—that is not a`kind of blunder we would commit in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) No ; the cure for that is to shove them gently on.—(Cheers.) In Ireland the very name of Tory means a robber. And as they aro rob bers, they arc fairly so called. Is there an unjuet tax in Eng land that was not put on by them ? Is there any burden from which you are suffering that did not spring from the Tories or robbers ?—( Cheers.) No, not one ; and what is mote, there never was yet an abridgment of your liberties that the Tory seal was not on it. Somebody said just now that the \Vh.igs did not go far enough. I admit it; but still they have gone a good portion of the way—they knocked off fifty-six nomination boroughs at one blow • now that is what I call a good Whig blow.—( Cheers and laughter.) I remember when I was at school in France, a French boy insulted one of his English schoolfellows, by saying to him vous mentais—the English boy instantly knocked him down, adding, " that is plain English at any rate."—(A laugh.) Now I say to knock off fifty-six nomination boroughs at one blow is samething like plain Eng lish.—(Cheers.) Now why do I want you to support these Whigs ? I will tell you. That they may go the rest of the way, that they may knock off 56 more nomination boroughs, extend the suffrage, and give us vote by ballot. The Whigs have already done much, and I know that they will do more. —( Cheers.) Have they not struck off the fetters of 800,000 men of colour ?—( Cheers.) When the Whigs came into power there were 800,000 slaves in the British dominions. Blessed 1)3 God, no man within the range of the British flag can now be called a slave.—( Cheers.) Well, the Whigs did, all this for you ; but did they do nothing more ? Upon coming into office they found the East India and China trade shut up. They threw it open to your commerce.—( Hear, hear.) Was this nothing ? Is not tea, the poor man's luxury, much cheaper than it was four years ago ?—( Cheers.) But what did the Whigs do for Ireland, for I must now say a word for my own country? When the Whigs came into power, the Orange faction, that blood-thirsty faction which for years past has been a scourge to that unhappy country was domi nant in Ireland ; thanks to the Whigs, its fangs have been drawn and its nails clipped ; and though the monster will oc casionally snarl and scratch, thanks to the Whigs, again I say it, it can do no mizchief.—( Hear, hear.) In former times no one could get a place under the Government unless his poli tics were those of the Orange faction. Is it so now ? thank God ! The authority of the law is respecteclon 1 r few cases of its violation now occur. In the city which e.. present, out of a population of four thousanc: hun dred, there were at the last assizes bu four pri mere for trial. In short, the days o rin go bragh" are returning to us, and no doubt retufrn"iEf the Whigs are allowed to retain office. What is it we all want ? Is it not good and cheap Government ? Do we not want that English men should be allowed to put their money in their pockets, or spend it as they please, instead of paying it over to the tar gatherer ?—( Cheers.) This is one great thing that I want ; but, in addition, I want to see worked out the great principles of Radicalism. I want, for instance, to see the Parliament shortened.—(Cheers.) I want next, Vote by Ballot. I want next, an extension of the Suffrage.—(Loud cheers.) My own opinion is, that every man ought to have a vote. Every man is taxed, and I say it is a robbery to put a tax on him who has no Representative in Parliament. These are the things I want for England—these are the things I want equally for Ireland ; but, depend upon it, we cannot get them for either country un les; we combine together to support the Whig Government as far as it goes, and, above all, to keep out the Tories. in the towns of England, where there is to be found the most in• telligence and knowledge, the Tory influence is weakening from day to day, but they have, some how or other, gained a strong hold among too many of the farmers in the agricultural districts. Now, I must say, that I am surprised at this--an English farmer is, for the most part, a very shrewd fellow, and he generally knows when there is a rat in the sheaf— ( Loud laughter, and continued cheering)—but in politics they altogether mistake the rats ; if they knew but all, they would soon find that the Tories are the rats that grind dovm the farmers.—(Hear, hear.) Tho change in the circulating medium of the country was one of the first blows aimed at the agricultural interests. And who gave it to them ? Why Peel and his party.—( Cheers.) Who - put the heavy taxes upon them? The Tories. And who would take them off? Why the Whigs both could and will if they are allowed to remain in power.—( Cheers.) The surplus revenue for the last quarter was 1,300,0001. ; every farthing of that will go to the remis sion of taxes ; and I venture to say, that if the Whigs are permitted to remain in power twelve m onths longer, that every man in the country, however humble, will feel their utility.— ( Hear, hear.) At present the agricultural interest are not in as prosperous a state as I should have wished them, but still they are improving; and on the other hand the manufacturing in terest was never in such a state of prosperity as at this moment. There are now building no less than thirty-six new cotton fac tories in Lancashire, while there is plenty of employment for the operatives in every manufacturing district through the coun try. The Tories only advance themselves by the use of cor rupt influence; we don't want that; what we want is a clear stage and no favour. Scotland got Corporate Reform. Eng land has Corporate Reform. Why, I ask you, should Ireland be deprived of it? The Lords tell us that we shall not have i t, b ecau se we are not fit for it ; they lie in their teeth. —( Loud and continued cheers.) Both countries have the same burdens ; why should not they have the same liberties ? I confess I am not sorry that the Whigs are not more rapid in their *progress ; they act upon us as a kind of drag. chain, preventing the upsetting of the coach, but not pre eliding its arr i va l at t h e :b ottom o f t h e hill. My wish is not to bring down England to the level of Ireland, but to raise Ireland to the level of England. I have now a word to say to you respecting the Bishops and the House of Lords. As to the former, I shall only oabdsermveindthtahtailr w wish that they would give up legislation, a trade (Hear, and laughter.) As far as the people are