The Sun. — London, England, 1803-03-12 00:00:00

IMPERML PIIRLIAMEN7. HOUSE OF PEERS: FRIDAY, MARCH 11. co u stet,. were finally beard relative to the Irish Appeal, 'Lloyds v. Grady, vii, Mr. Are,ma, pr4ttipal.Counsel.tta the. Respondent, and Mr. M A ;t3 V t x t.O oti behalf of the Appel. lants, in reply. Their Lorikhips postponed giving Jude oient ; and the Lo a D •.CVS* cut-Loft, who appeared to la. bour under a considerable degree of indisposition during.the wltulebt the hearing, retired trout the House. 4001 Az.v A NIOLY noticed the circumstance of the Loan Cif NC xl,.Lox's neeessaryabsence temporarily froth indis position, and in the usual' way, proit.'ssed his readiness to officiated* Speaker in the absence of the Noble and Learned Lord. - The pfbposed arrangement , seeming fully to meet the ap. probation of their. Lordships, Lord A Lv Aivi 4 o.v._ took his place on the Woolsack as Speaker.' The Earl of i LlstEitteic submitted a proposition to' the House relative to the I rish Peerage, v:hicli was utflered.to be referred to the Conimittee of Privileges. Lord M NT() called the attention of their Lord. ships to a NotiCe which he had given previously to the late Re&ss, of his intention to bring forward a Motion for the produetion•of certain information relative, (as we understood his Lordship) to the affair's of SWitztrland. lie observed npon the im. portance, of the sebjeCl, and the propriety, in va. tious points .of view, of having the information he alluded to before the Himse, turd seemed to say, that none bf those .objections, which might on a former occation be started against, his inteetlael Uotion, could apply in the present instance. But, notwithstanding these eonsidirittions; he was induced - by the weightier wits, of the events of the few last days, to e. v r his arttended Motion, He was fatly aw ate - of the situa tion in which we stood, and was free to confess, that, in the piasent Crisis of rite National affairs, such a discussion would be . highly imprOper, perhaps injurious. These considerations, however, , did not in his mind, lessen the i ntr i n sic int ' portance cif the Question he had intended to bring forward, nor did they, in his mind, ex. onerate 'Minister's from responsibility for their eondua on that occasion. But we had now to con. template Matters of, more immediate . and tweet ime portant concern ; the Members of the Legislature Would have now a ofiLluble duty to perfolthe one within and another without doors. The Nation was perhaps on the eve of a long contest, in which not only every thing which respeded it, as a free, prosperous, and independent Nation, was at issue; biit with respeft to its ielnibitaets, every thing dear •eo them as men in civilized society', and their exe ertions therefore must be Commensurate.. After pursuing this strain of' obseryations for some time, in forcible and animated language, the Noble Lord concluded by inforMing the Eit'use, that it was nut his intention at present to bring forward the Mo tion of which he, had formerly 2,i , •.:o notice., The Order of the Day fee their Lordships going into a Committee on the Mutiny, Bill being lead, the atuse accordingly resolved itself into the same, Lard WALSINGibtM in the Chair. • The various clauses 'and provisions of the Bill were agreed to by tbetienreicter ; the blank* were filled up, and some verbal amendments nude on the tnotoe of L.,;rd Eeoeteloaotecett. 'The Haase then resumed, and, oideredtlie •Re. part teaUc tc:.civrki Mund.iy. :The Earl of NOIRA, pursuant to his notice, rose' to move for the second reading of the' Bill (which was printed,. and his been for some time be fbre the 1 - touse) for the more effeaual prevention of frivolous aid vexatious arrests'; and fOr thee lief of persons imprisoned on .mesne process. The Noble EMI obseive:d . , it might naturally be petted in general, that when any important tion in the law of the land was proposed, 'a de. tailed exposition at the reasons which induced a pcoposition of dte kind, should be given. Such an exposition Was, however; unnecessary ihe pierient instancP, in consequence of repelled former dilcuasions of die general sOjet , the length of the tim e which the Bill in cidestion was. under the ine speelion , of their LOrdships, and the peculiar sir. cumstances of many Members Of that HOube, from 'prolessiunal pUrsuits and situations, being . in genetal adequately conversiut with the subject. The Noble and Learned Lords who presided high judicial Situations, having ; particularly at. tended to the subjea,' they were the better able to guide the deliberations of the House,. and with. out their concurrence,. he observed, no• measure of the kind whielt he was about to propose, could be *endered exteesieely of pradicar beceiit. These various considetatiotts, rendered it unuecessaty-for blot to take uo the time of the House by a detail Of the reasons which had induced him . to come for., ward, or by, a Minute description of the provisions of the Bill in question. -He.had the less to regret on this subject, as their Lordships would in general 'gree with him, that such a discussion would be far from amusing. He should therefore, in the pre. sent instance, only trouble them with pointing their attention to some of the leading and-must important provisions of the Bill, it was first proposed by him, through the medium of the Bill in question, to raise the amount of. the InWeSt sum for which Arrests could legally take place : this sum was at present SUM' which WA fixed at a period when the value of money, comparatively, was con. siderably higher than it 'presente-ehis wish was, to raise it , according to some proportiopati ratio ; the precise . amount he could not then specify,, but pro. oilbly he wonld have to propose. it at 201.' this, however, .could , be .moie regularly discussed in the Committee. A second prOposition respeded cer. lain and regular allowance fOr the subsistence of forSOOS COnfilied Data mesoe proc,esss : at present there r% as no provision of that,sort fair them. The Noble Lord dwelt on the propriety of eluding' one, on grounds, particularly of humanity ; for lie was informed of cases in which prisoners so confined had di e d o f absolute want. Another provision 41 the- Bill went to countera& certain cases of wanton or oppressive arrests, or the necessity of the party be. ing held to special bail; upon the depositing in ate bands of the Sheriff, or any other proper person • who might be determined hsy the COmmittee, a s l im e peal' to • tl e e ainount of the sum sworn to in the: .:ii is vii t t the eautie of afflon ; and also •a sum in Ld:irtion ilereto, for'the ptirpose of aussvering:the costs,; if any should Ce recovered. A regulation of thin rendenty Ire thopght wus loudly called for, as many eases of real Lart!ship had °crime& part:cu. lady in consequence of .the partl,eing so circuln stanced as nut to be able to . .fuAtOequate A subsequent Clause in tile Bill w4pariicularly difei‘.led to:the prerention of looie arrestarAti went to entitle the Defendants, held to special bail, 'Jo full. costs of suit, in certain cases, and ftir the amount of' the sum remaining after the costs be taxed in a regular way, to he entitled to take out Execution, • ezc.— There were some subordinate' and collateral provi sions of the Bill, which proceeded upon the same principle, and designed the better to efieduate the ends proposed by the Bi:1, which, were generally touched upon by his Lordship, and which, he , 01% served, sould be more regularly''And.cifeduely dis cussed in the Cnmmittee. Heconatided.by moving; that the Bill be now read a sopci:time. Lord ELL EN San° UG H rose to make some oh. Nervations on the subjed.. Those Ntihic and Learned Lords, he ob-erved, whO presided in the different Courts for , the administration of justice, were iss cordially disposed.as.;iiik inert could .be, to .agree. to and promote any ,beneficial alterations in ihe exist ing Laws. At the:,oene time it was their duty to 'Ascertain, as far as in them Inv, .thist the, alterations . proptio:d were really:betH and on that head they should feel the most, anxious jealousy. With resped •to the propositien of the Noble Earl, the Noble and Learned Lord seemed, in general, to I:y . ard tt with a degree of approbation'. 11► e lead- propo*iii6o, that of raising the. .amount of the lowest . sutra for • which arrests could rake place, lie seemed, under all, the circumstances of t h e e As - e , olfiedion to e The present amount of- tOl.. was. fixed so long back as the reign Of. Ceerge the First; the difference of the salue of-money then, from, what it was at the pre sent period, might tairly warrant the dilicreece Mentioned be the Noble Lord., -With re'sped .to other pro,: kions meetiortedbythe Noble Lod, lie might fed some difference of opinicie, though :with regard to others' they had his entire' approbation. Sonic of the •ferther he thought had better not be rm , de subjeas of legi,lative provision, as proposed by the - Bill. Redress was to be had, in the easiest and most frequent modes of pradice, even by a et mmon motion of course, or other application to the Court. Indeed-the pradice of the Couits was to a certain,degree to be considered as le4al re. gulations ; btit as they were of a mutable nature, and a certain degree of discretionary power vested in those Who presided, he thought it would be better to let those parts of the system remain as they were, than to, subject them to an invariable legislative regulatiOn. , On one or . two of the pro_ po4d regulations, the Noble and. Learned Lord seemed to entertain no small difference. of opinion tel'ilt the Noble Earl, they were these respeding .:.posit of the money, aed the amount ofeosts, in lieu of finding bail,. &c.; and those which re. laced to the ptop.tsed subsequent proceedings with resped to the costs.of suit. On these points, ,he argued upon legal and pradical grounds, rather .agamst the propositions of the Noble Earl, re. serving a more particular discussion of these claeses atid provilons of the Bill for the regular oppor ic run ) , of the Committee. Lord. 4.IIANLEY also made some generalsob. servations, opt) the SubjeEt :'"upon the Wholei.he ra. Cher agreed with what fell from the Noble and Lepned whet spoke last : but he seemed to entertain an oeinion, that the provision authorizing ' the stiNtitution.of the motley for the present mode of finding Special Bail, ,?ec. .would not be attended wiih injurious effete. :The Bill was then read a segond time, and or. deted to be coauitted•on Tuesday. An understanding obtained between the Nobli Mover of and the Law Peers.abOve men tioned, that should the indis; tethion of the Lotus CHANCBLLoR detain him on that, day; : theCroliniit.: mem should - hi-disposed of. ' The alths'of Fidelity arid ;Alleoianee were then adminiStered at the Bar to:-Messrs. John - Randolph Bourcard, and C. Pe t'erAitufmann,prev ions to the-se cw.d Feading:of dills for:their.Naturalization;„ The above proceeding being finished,. the- ' were forthwith read it second Lillie( An Officer from the Treasury of Ireland pre. rented AcCotints of-the-Numbers, &c. of the Bank of Ireland NoteS in circulation, ,at Certain periods ; which were, ordered to be laid before the House pur. suant to former Motions of Lord KING, Sze . * • The House then adjourned till Monday. ROUSE OF COMMONS. FRIDAY, MARCH 11,. Leave of abtenco was krantcd to stoveral.Alembers: A hlessage from the Lords, stated, that their Lordships had agreed to the Militia Training Bill,.and the Irish Revenue. Officers Bill, without ar.y amendment. Mr. dit or roN, from the Treasury of Ireland, presented several Accounts respecting the ReVenues of tfiat Country, which were ordered to lion the Table, ancrto'be'printed. A Person frntri the Commissioners of Customst . he., L‘ pre.; talented an Account of the numuer Vessel, inat aave come into, and gone out of the Port of London, for three,years, end. ing the sth of 'January, :803. The Irish Chalking Bill was read a third.time and passed. On the Motion of M.r. WICK t 1 :!.m, the House iv:Nob/et! itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Billto Rrevent vexatious Law Suits im I reland.:The lteport was ordered to be'received on, Monday. „ The Mutiny Bill was read a third tirne.and passed, The .Irish Stamp Duty Bill was read a third time'and passed. Mr. GARTIISHORE moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of a Supply. The Order being read, and the Hotise having 're so l ve d itself into a Committee of the whole House ascot. dingly, Mr. GARTHSRORE moved, ‘. 4 That it is the opinion of this Committee, that to,ooo Seamen be employed in His Majesty's service, for eleven lunar months, to commence from the 26th of February, 1203, including 340o.Marines. Mr. FR4NCIS said, he thought there was much serious consideration due to this subjed, and he could 'not help saying, he thought the general state of the Country ought' to be considered ; and that, included a consideration of the conduet of those Mi. misters, which had brought unto the state in which we are. Whatever be said in that House, be said deliberately, and on much reflettion i —Tirst of,all, be would observe, that he could have wish. ed, that the &solution for the Address to His Majesty had passed' by acclamation, witllyet a Word, for Speeches, , even 'in favour itlf 'awl followed by an tioariimous vote, were liah!e to mis inierpretatiOn, and imore especially in Ffanee— i the cause of rite. want-of information'io the Hoo,e. For many of His Majesty's Ministers he had great personAjespd, and up to the preSeot Aime, they had hisionstfint . support ; -whether that support- ought to he 'continued, depended on points to be discussed. - the. Preliminaries were' signed, he' partook of the general joy which was felt in this Country • and'afterwards he felt . himself deeply it to ~ Ministers for procuring ns' • Peaee increlY as such ; and as- to the terms; .'though they were liable to some obje6ious,, and,,many persons of great objeCi to thein,', yet it not appear to him that we paid . a,greater price than the thing Was worth, namely, a Achy (trance from the War. While he said, price for 'the thing, Still he gaye,eredit 'to Ministers, and he should ,not qUarret with them, although he disapproved of some of that IlleaStlteg. - In his mind, neither the Parliamentner the Public had constitutionally a right tO interfere w lib the, Executive Power in making Peace or War, that W 4 s the ininicai died Of Oar Constitution; pethap's he did not entirely, approve of the' sentiment of it, but such it was. Pailiatnent 'might inquire, hOw. even, into the condo 4 of those who advised His Mi,jestY either to make Peace or War, and that ei titer fOr the purpose of punishment it the*case of ,treachery, -or of removal in case of incapacity.; but txt•wert bound by . their acts, as the- -ass of our agents.... '1 *w, he. asked, When re had. made ; -the sacrifice,.when we had paid`the full price of our ob je(q, had our objea'been obtained? If we had.not . ; ail was,thrown away ; we had in this ease got no thing but an inseente Peace While it lasted, and int. tnediately - , afterwards a Certainty of War ; why' then, he' Would ask, could We cOntinue, our conti, (knee_ in those Gentlemen,who made a PeaCe with. out any security. for its c ontinuance, but who had 'brought.• the Country into another \Nati ,These were points on which the Country had a right to be. satisfied. to tJie people, they wete British mcn,• and that was enough. There was 'neither a heart or a hand in this Country, that would not .oppose any aggression . on ,the part of France, for we all knew, that every thing that, was dear to us was ar stake. Why should we :do so'? Because we were E'nglishmen—hecause we , were`Scotchmen, and beCause we-were Iristimen.—= Ile therefore, upon that principle, concurred in the 'present Vote—and would have concurred in a4arger one, if proposed. But then he would ask, if Parlia. 'men t was not. to, look to the CoraTua which had brought us into that, situation—and unless ,the Ministers 'could make it appear, that they could not hare ttEted :more wisely, by reasons which at pre s ent, he Was onacquainred with,- he thought that confidence ought . no longer to be 'continued iii them, for 'there was much prime:facie evidence against -them-.—He,there, fore did hope that the proceedings of this 'day would innclucc vitne explanlationeHow . , far Ministers Were to . go was not-for-him to say, -'but some formation they ought to give, for the House by the . Vote now proposed, was going to say, -that ,Nli -nisters were - still to continue in possession' 'd the confidenee of the-House, and this he suggested i n ure for the porpose of being followed by men of greater abilities, than for the sake of producing much effc-ft himself. The consideration of the state of this- Country at present had some degree of alarm. Wt all saw- what effel the 'alarm had al had. affetted Public Credit; ready produced, how it did we-think it. would all go soon off.? He appre hended nor. :He was sorry to advert to our 'diffi culties, but we should look around us ; the Country , was surrounded by distress, and possibly oil the eve of fighting; for its existence: The whole alstlity of England„ said he, is excluded out of its Govern. merit—yes, • at this very, Milmenz the whole ability of England- is excluded - out of its -gtv'ierinnent ; by what fatality that has happened I know not ; it cer tainly is the l faCl, and 'it i S' fel t abroad, andin poio.ol fad. nothing is so," ;I,j urionS to os as that sucha reeling should go abroad—nothing so, desirable to a foreign enemy, as that great abilities. Should be excluded from • our Government, and a's to thaFewho lately. had the power, be .their abilities what they may,. they h?ve not been foratuate, ti) say the least of the matter. He concluded witb observing, th a t -3cnie discussion should take Once before we voted any thing that, had :the, appearance . of continuing confidence in Ministers. These 'were his opinions, and be had . not .taken theoi up 'hastily, flat ras ine in the least degree hostile to Admieistration ; all ,he wanted was an * inquiry by which information might be laid 'before: the f louse, for he app re h en d e d We, might soon he : in• a state, in which we m ust fight for our existence: ' The CILINCSLIOIt of the EXC:IIEQUER -said, he. should follow. Ahe-,course 'adopted by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, or which he had at least expressed a wish to adopt, that of abstaining from the- use of (what indeed he did not feel) any thing like personal hOstility on the present occasion; but the ,House would _consider whether that Hon. Gentleman had condufted'hiniself consistently, with the principle -he luid laid down for the -discussion . of the sehjeel, anti the wishes - he had expressed con- - cerning it. He had Alluded to 'what passed in the House ott;a fernier night : lie hadexpressed -a wish that the Ad4ress, in answer to Majesty'g sage, had paArwirhout any cgain*ot at all, and had been given by kcciatnation ; whether the observa. .tions got the Hon. Gentleinco to-eight accorded with .thit wish, ,was for hint and the House- to consider. .He had, however, expressed another wish, -in which every Sulijed of this countr y he hoped .waeld co ncur with him, that nothing should be said, and he was happy that, nothing was said, to Oral the,tma City" of the HOusein its aft upon that : occasion, , to qualify unanimitr which appeared in it ; st cer t a inly that unanimity was desirable, and "i not interrupted ; but he would ask the Hon. G s. and submit to the House, • whether, the sat. restraint on the language .of others- on thf. on, and which operated so effe4ipally,- inigh not consistently' with th e same principle, have been suffered to operate :this night? The Hun. Gentleman- had - said, that we were in a deplorable situation, that GoVernment was so in. efficient, that the whole ability :of the Country was excluded out of it. lie could assut4 that Hon. Gimtleman, and he could assure the House, there wa no individual existing whofelt the dir t ro~ one portiorr.ot his ri:ea .s to the ardaut of tits cviSli:s, and the made upon him to discharge his duty at a great avid momentous,trisis, more truly than he did : but on what principle it was the Hoh•Gen tlemen cciuld state to the-House, that the Govern. inent from' which all the ability of this . Country was excluded,- possessed his confidence so long, as the Hon. Gentleman said it had, he should leave tcs the Hon. Gentlemen to explain. Knowing, as now he seemed to assure the House he did, that the Whole ability of 'the Country was excluded from the-Governinent, it seemed hardly consistent wi' fib his duty to .liaft 'reposed in that Government the confidenCe he decla;ed he did. The Hon.'Gentle-,, - . mahehadlowever, stated the case as to the power making' Peace. or War,: very correctly. Ha Lad said, thav o such Dower (wisely, Mr. ADP; !‘". `‘ thought, though the Hon: Gentleman doehho was given to .the Chief Magistrate of this Contory. • the with If Peace was made on terms inconsisteth wit honour of ,this Country, His Majesty's ;idyl r such case would be deeply responsible ,to House; that was a principle broadly stated by Lite Honourable Gentleman, and to that principle, Mr. A.nutxceohsaid, he wes ready to accede; but the f-lore d nou r, ra t i i i ,ly 1e r i G et, ei: o ti t : i i i i ti ra i n e, had said, ,:thatelit'i'lc' s were, W pre s se b n ); t tsl'ictisu coodutt u tit a i t Ct l . o (i s : t u : ns l tl F l 'a 'd c y c 'a : sl :l lP ed )i(::fcr a ;'ld' s lo-li,m3:fitt)isrt: Ministers were deeply- tesoeesibic, if it 'should al"- pear that the Country was o broVit to suff er from any fault of, theist ; he 'should eherefore say , that Ministers 'would a responsible indeed if it stint", appear . that they had deserted the .principles on which they had proceeded in, the first` instance, and changed the motives which aauated thein recommending to :His Majesty , to conelnite that Treaty of Peace, which lad been applaudeil,.thouglt in.quoii6ed terms, by the fittroutableGentler nso; if they had deserted these InlnciPles; Change d these motivis they • Wouldoleserve, and they would meet with the reprobation of the Hdusc and of the . • Public ; but he, could assure the House, there Gil been no, such ;change'. of motive or desertion of principle. • There: had been no diselissiors between. 01\iligajjetisatiyed in.'s Go t v h e e ro s m pi e r n i t t • and Freitice, that of been done on our ,pert, h a d o b i ec i n 'e : l i c o e ue ; pose of improving' Peace, and' that' was the s pirit with which they advised His Majesty to adopt 114 7 , condUa - which he is now pursuing in the Netfi dation with France; and here he 'alight be Pe l f.- milted 'to observe, that he wou ld have'epraed fe talents of the Honourable Gentleman at detioitioo, `would. not have deserted hini - on iris itniltut a , nc occasion, hut would'have suggested to hifn t hat the duty of al Member of Parliament did not compel to 'call much foi information in the House of Com mons 'pending a Negotiation. - 'This we's 3 s ub ` je'd which had becu discussed over and over agai° in that Hoare, had, upon sound n c d on w s •: i t t lutorhniiii principles, utoiieexeetio d'c the right to interfere, or to break in tyonsNel:i c' 4: ' ll ' tioe by the Executive Goverinfient; 'the cow vary ) which 'would he highly dangerous. If M"" therefore,' from an eagerness' to justify elicit., " or piqued by any reproaches, were to limas the nature was, or any, of the partitothrs. ',fl ak " Iv D nec u ro t y y n , ts, ; et ru b: di r: o b b e., v o i t ti t 1 cussion,'they would desert the spielth" . nterice he &le • • nion which wo u ld 'naturally arise, and ',;old kad.to discussion, that would obstreet • of what was going on between Hi s Majesty Witt' die other Power with whom he Wa's disee,ssing• -individual might say, this is a point not. worth do- • ethsion at' all: a n o t h e r m i g h t flunk it a point el1;7- htecitig a vital interest another, that it was nese . Cher one - nor other. of these extremes, but it was only of a certain value, and any thing beyond is' would . be wrong: .so : that the progress. of the Negotiation must thereby meet a co nsiderable . • obstruction, for which reason it had always be ets deemed, wise to abstain from discussion' of. this liin a in that House, - pending: Negotiation. But in thin case, if - an amicable tesuli rook• place, there mus t be concession on one side or the other. r Not a word, did lie say whence : that concession was ; Come. . He said nothing ! upon that subjett. •' 1- 1 How, lie was sow, • wutilil. be aware, that pro- I dence required him to take this course ; for it could not be stated what .Was expefted on either ,side, without exposing the other, to the idea of humilia tion in the event of Making :the, concession, whatever,. it . was, and, of kindling that spirit which might lead to liiture Wars..• hle begged 'k might nor he • imputed to. Ministers, as it had been by seine, most unwarrantably and .unjustly, over and over again, . that Ministers bad an urbecoming spirit of Conces don ; that was nut their true cliarasfter ; but this was not the season for the discussion of that sub.• jet, • and therefore he hoped Gentlemen would 2b stain from such observations for the present. fie was tit) t applying these observations merely the present - discussion, but to any discussion' between Government and another Power. Tie appealed £ 0 the House; whether the prudent consideratioo of re straint, pending a Negotiation, was not .:t mat cce perfectly understood to be constitutiosial and wise ?. With resoeti to the Motion now before' the HouSe, toe Fee. Gentleman had expressed nothing but an unqualified apprubatiori ; he had indeed said, th.ih if. a Motion- were' made for a laroCe nurnher Seatnee, he should. support ir, and therefore he should have no gbservatiou to Make on that pa rt 'of the speech of the Hon. Gentleman: he would' only add, that he begged the House to retnetnber that he'diii hold Government to be deeply respon sible for all they had done; he trusted it would be found that they had never deserted their priociple.o -but that they had pursued a course at once been• and moderate—moderate, not to pusillanimity, bo£ to prudence, not to compromise' our own Interests' , hut to attain Security; and preserve our Honouto He knew that this was a general statement,, Ina( would create distrust 'in the minds of thoett were always disposed to distrust Ministers : but if the time should come, and God giant it nester `tray ' (said be), - that we shall be , competled to take h o stile ' steps to. sup port our cruse, the House shall see whe tiler my declaration to-night is founded in-truth but. I would suffer any imputation on my condtg i . t for a while, rather than - by a justification of royseits 1i ' 1.! to ce si, He re fo