The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-22 00:00:00

Proni what countries do oak and staves come to Memel ?—From Russian Po land, which is called Wolhynia. What may be the expense of bringing staves and oak timber from the place of its growth to the port of Illenfel ?—lt will be about half of that price. What loss is at present sustained upon the importation of staves from Memel ? —The freight is lost. It has been stated previously to the Committee, that during the years 1817 and 1818 the wood trade was in a much more favourable state with Memel than at present; do you remember whether or not the trade in staves was at that time profitable or not ?—No, there was no profit upon that more than the timber trade, for it was said the duties would be altered in those years, and therefore the prices got up; but when the alvic,es came out from England, that there was no altelation, the price went down as rapidly again. What would be considered a fair remunerating price in Memel for bringing timber there for exportation?—At 355. a load. The present price is 30s. ?—Yes. 'What was the current price during the last year?—lt was 255. and 265. Then, in point of fact, th ere i s an a d vance o f f rom 4s. to ss. ?—Yes, but there is no tim ber bought yet. The people in the country say, we will not buy any before we know what the duties will be. Then is the advanced price required in consequence of the expectation of a re duction of the duty here ?—No, that cannot be, for we do not know whether the , :e will be a reduction or a duty put on. Is it in consequence of an expectation of change, either by reducing the duty on the Baltic timber, or by laying a duty on the American, that this advance has taken place in Prussia 2—No, but the stock is so small. Then whether any change takes place here or not, the shipper in Prussia will not accept of less than 30s. ?—lf they remain as they are now, people from England will not import, and we shall be obliged to get rid of our timber as we can, at whatever loss. Has there been great dissatisfaction expressed in Prussia at the high duties ex acted in this country ?—Yes, and our Government has promised us, that there shall be an alteration in the duties here, and that they will petition the Govern ment here about it. If an alteration were made that would reduce the duty from 655. to 455. a load. would that materially benefit the timber trade of Prussia ?—lt would ma tee-ally benefit the timber trade. And render it advantageous ?—Yes, if we got better prices ; but we must al ways go by thi s mar k et ; I think the demand irould then be greater for our wood, and we should get a profit. What were the rates of freight from Memel to London, during the last sea son ?-2I s. and 225. With ordinary dispatch, how many voyages do you expect a vessel to make during the season, from Memel to London ?—You may reckon sometimes two, sometimes three voyages ; in Memel, we give always very good dispatch : a ship of 300 tons never takes but five or six days loading. With such dispatch, may not a ship be reasonably expected to make three voy ages in a season ?—Yes. You have spoken of places on the Niemen, the Vistula, and the Oder, being supplied with rum, and various articles of manufacture from this country before the war, have they been supplied with similar articles from any other country since ?—No, they take some articles from the Prussian manufactories, but they are not so liked as English manufactures ; in Poland you cannot sell them so well, they will always have the English if they can, Have they done without those articles ?-1(: 5 , they have done without them, for they have no money to pay for them, therefore they were obliged to do with out them. What was the current freight fo: staves during the last season ?—From 101. to 121. and 131. [Adjourned until To-morrow, one o'clock. Sabbati, 24° die Februarii, 1821. The Right Honourable THOMAS WALLACE, in the chair. Mr. Burgin Haigh, again called in, and further examined. You have stated in your former examination, that the price of New Brunswick yellow pine is at present eighteenpence a foot in the Liverpool market; can you inform the Committee what was the current price of the same wood in November and December last ?—ln November, I bought 3,724 feet at sixteenpence half penny ; I have not any account for December, but it was about the same. To what cause do you attribute the advance ?—I have reason to suppose it is ur_der the expectation that there will be a trifling duty laid upon the timber. Should a duty be laid equal to the advance, do you think it probable that that advance will be supported ?—Yes. Should no duty be laid, as those buyers expected, are you of opinion that the price will fall again to the rates current in November and December last P—l have no doubt of it. Then if a duty is laid, the advance in price will be equal to that duty, and thus fall on the consumer ?--Certainly. If the present price of eighteenpence is supported, will that cause a diminished consumption in your opinion ?—No. If the Dantzie pine falls to 2s. 3d. and the American pine is at Is. 6d. will that, in your opinion, cause a diminished demand for American pine in the Lan cashire market ?—No, 1 believe not. Do not the prices of commodities depend rather on the proportion that the sup -ply bears to the demand, than on the duty they pay, or on any other circum stance ?___The quantity of timber at present in the market, and the less demand, of course has been one reason of timber coming down in the Liverpool market ; at the present price of timber, sixteenpence halfpenny, and an advance, so as to make it eighteenpence, equal to what it i s n ow , I am st ill o f op i n i on, it would make no difference as to the consumption of the article. Does not the price depend upon the proportion the supply bears to the demand, rather than on the duty the commodity pays ?—Certainly, the price must make an alteration in the consumption of the timber, whether pine or Baltic. Does not the price depend upon the quantity in the market, and the proportion the supply bears to the demand ?—There is not a doubt that the scarcer the article is in the market, of course it will be the more liable to be advanced. I think I mentioned that in my examination before, as it refers to Riga timber, that Riga timber being more scarce, it is higher in price, and that must be the same with every other timber. In the offers which buyers make for timber, do they consider the amount of the duty it has paid, or whether it pays any duty whatever ?—The importers of timber, and the merchants who buy it from the importers, can speak better to that; that is a business of their own. I buy mine generally from the purchasers, and sometimes from the importers, for the purpose of consumption ; but with respect to what they do in the market, in point of speculation, that is a business I am perfectly ignorant of. Do not you always endeavour to purchase timber at the lowest price at which you can obtain it, without enquiring into the charges made upon it by the im porter ?—Yes, certainly. Supposing, from any alteration in the duties, the importation of pine timber should be reduced two-thirds of what it has been of late years, and the Baltic timber be increased two-thirds what it has been, would not that contribute to advance the price of the North American timber ?—Then it comes, probably to the question before put to me, that it will depend entirely upon the quantity in the market. If there were only one-third of the quantity of American timber in the market, would not the price be increased ?—There is no doubt of that. Mr. Thomas Simson again called in, and further examined. There was an account you were requested to deliver in this morning, have you prepared that account ?—I have ; it is a list of the names of the Norway ships and their tonnage, and the names of th e British ships and th e i r t onnage t h at entered the port of London last year. From what document is this account made out ?, Report lists. )—From the Custom-house (The witness delivered in the same, and it was read as follows :) BRITISH SHIPS. Wilding - Joseph and Jane James - James - Vigilant - Triton - Wilding - Tons. 267 269 241 227 328 182 267 Tons. Sophia - - - - 224 Bonito - - - - 291 Union - . - - 357 Cornwall - - . - 367 11 Ships, Tons - 3,020 NORWAY SHIPS. Minerva Tons. Petnts - - - - 300 Norge - - - - 300 Minerva - - Anna Chaterine - Skrifriheden - Aurora - . Porsgrund - Delphin - _ Propaphia - Eucharis - - Petrus - - Industry - - P. Aug , . Fred" - Georgiana - - Dovre - - Venus - Sostrene - - - - 270 P. Christian Fredk - - 390 300 - 380 A n i n c : r C d ,h ia ris - tiania - : Varige Hariancie - - 259 Eucharis - - - 317 Dovre - - - - 300 Luke - - - - 71 Georginia - - - - 120 Anna Dorothea - 340 Johannes - - - 413 Spes Nova - - - 250 Adjutor - - - - 220 Forende Brodre - - - 500 Anna Christrice - - - 309 Harmonie - - - 280 Providentia - - 302 Christiania - - 300 Maria - - - 320 Emanuel - - - - 133 Dorothea - - - - 100 Freza - - Amphitrite - Europe - - Spes Nova _ Emanuel - - Johannes Tonder Fortuna - - Haabets Anker - Flora - - Industria - - Lawrence and Mary Emanuel - - Hohnstrand - 51 Ships, Tons - 15,456 What duty do you think might be imposed on the timber from the British pro vinces in North America, without materially diminishing the consumption ? think that a duty of not more than 10s. a load, the American timber would bear, but that any thing beyond that would most materially affect it ; we should then get the article bettd from Anierica thafi we do at present ; I think it would bear l Os. Supposing 10s. was put upon the American timber, and I Os. taken off the B a lti c timber what effect would that h ave ? Th at would occasion a large import a ti on immediately from the Baltic, and would be a most serious injury to the holders of Canada timber now in this country, who cannot possibly get rid of their stocks of it on hand. Why would that occasion an importation of a large quantity from the Baltic ? That is my opinion, that there would be immediately a large importation from the Baltic, and that the holders of the present immense stock of American timber would not be able to get rid of that which they have on hand. What is your reason for supposing there would be that immense importation from the Baltic ? The Baltic timber would then be brought in at so much lower rate than it is at present. Do you happen to know at what time the wood for exportation from the Baltic is cut and prepared ? In the fall of the year, in the month of October. Then all the wood that can be exported from the north of Europe this season, was prepared during the winter ? Yes. 1 hen upon what ground do you think a variation of duty can produce that im mense immediate export ? Because there are always large quantities of timber lying at the shipping ports in the north of Europe, ready for shipping. What proportion of the annual export is in that situation ? Nearly the whole of the exportation is down, ready for the spring ships. Do you mean that there is the amount of two years exportation in the ports at one time ready for exportation, if that could be exported ? No, not two years exportation. Is it more than one ? Of deals it is more than one. How much more do you think ? Not having been in the Baltic, I cannot speak as to the quantities, I only speak from Norway. But the timber that is to be exported in the spring, is cut in the winter ? That is the case in Norway ; not having been in the Baltic, I cannot answer to that. If that is the case in Norway, it is impossible that there could be an excess to any very considerable amount beyond the expected exportation of the ensuing season ? I have no doubt of the stocks being immense on hand in Norway ; the quantity of timber cut and ready for shipment in Norway is very great. What knowledge have you of that ? From my geneval knowledge of Norway, having travelled so much in it. Have you any correspondents there ? I have in most parts. Have you any accounts from correspondents, of the actual amount of stock on hand ? No. Is it usual in Norway, when the timber is at a low price, and the export is limited, to continue to cut and prepare a vast deal of timber beyond the probable demand ? The farmers keep continually bringing the timber down to the shipping ports, so that the timber is continually accumulating. And that whether there is an expectation of sale or not ? Yes, for unless they bring their timber, they cannot get corn, spirits and salt, and other things which they are obliged to take up into the country in return. Do they find persons ready to buy it ? It is bought for the purpose of the people on the sea coast getting rid of their commodities ; they barter for their timber. Then the Committee are to understand, that the people on the sea-coast import commodities which they are in the habit of giving for wood, to an amount that they have no great expectation of selling ? They make their bargains accordingly. Are there not large shipments of timber from Norway, sent to other parts of Europe, as well as to Great Britain ? They ship large quantities of timber to Holland. If the timber from Norway was admitted here on more favourable terms, with respect to duty, would not that circumstance decide the holders to send a larger proportion of it to this market, and less than usual to other markets ? Most assuredly. Do you know what the duty is upon Norway timber, in Holland ? No, Ido not ; I only know that the Hollanders enjoy the privilege of carrying it ; there are very few Norwegian vessels go with timber from Norway to Holland,they are prin cipally Dutch vessels ; to this country it is chiefly brought in Norway ships. Do you know whether Norway timber is received in Holland on better terms than it is in this country ? No, I cannot answer that. Then, not knowing upon what terms it is received in Holland, how can you take upon yourself to state that a given alteration of the duty here, would prcduce a di minution of the export to Holland, and an increase of export to this country ? I beg leave to state, that I do not mean to say that the quantity that is taken to Hol land would be less than is taken at present, but Holland cannot take all the tim ber which Norway produces. In your opinion, would deals from the British provinces in North America, bear any augmentation of duty, without a material diminution of their consumption in this country ? Any duty placed upon deals from North America beyond thirty shillings or two pounds for a hundred and twenty pieces, would drive them out of the market ; the white deals from Riga and Petersburgh are now brought in nearly on the same terms as the Canada people can bring their deals, that if any thing beyond two pounds was put on American deals, it would keep them out of the market altogether, and we should be supplied entirely from Riga, Petersburg, and other northern ports. In your opinion, would staves•from the British provinces in America bear any, and what augmentation of duty ? Staves from the town of Quebec certainly might bear a duty, but there would be great difficulty in levying the duty on staves gene rally from Canada, they vary so much in thickness ; staves which we get from the lower provinces, Nova Scotia, and those places, the value of them in our market is not more than from seven to eight pounds a thousand, whereas the staves we get from Quebec are worth seventy-seven, or from that to eighty pounds. What is the present price of British oak per load ? That depends upon its size, in a great measure ; small oak is worth about eight pounds. What is the present price of British fir or larch ? There is very little of that comes to the London market at present ; what has been here lately ,has sold at from 31. to 31. ss. Would not any diminution in the present duties on Baltic timber reduce the value of British timber ? Undoubtedly it would. Do not you consider the timber market in Great Britain, at present, as very much overstocked ? It certainly is overstocked with all descriptions of goods. Then if it is overstocked, has it not already, in consequence of that, reduced the price of British timber as low as it can be well reduced ? If the oak timber from the Baltic was brought in upon lower terms than it is at present, there would be no sale whatever for British oak used in ship-building; the grower of British oak plank for ship-building now can scarcely get rid of it at any price. Do not you know that in the present state of the country, with a view to ship building, it would be very desirable to preserve the English oak growing in it, and that there is actually a great scarcity of it ? That is a question I cannot take upon myself to answer. The account you have delivered in contains a list of the individual ships em ployed in the trade, and not of the voyages ? Of the individual ships. What number of sailors are those Norwegian ships usually navigated by ? About one man more to one hundred tons, than a British ship would take. Do you know what the insurance is on cargoes on board Norway ships, in pro portion to that in British ? It is nearly the same ; the premiums are at this time so very low, that there is very little difference. Do you know whether they are now continuing to build ships in Norway ? I believe not. Do you know how long it is since they have ceased to build them ? About two years. Do you think it would be worth while for them to build at the present freights ? Not at the present freights. • Mr. James Haydock Hill called in ; and examined. What are you ? lam a merchant in the Russia trade, partner in an establish ment at Riga, and partner in an establishment at Petersburgh. Your business lies in the wood trade ? Very much in that; not exclusively so ; that forms a material part of our business. 'What proportion does the export of wood from Russia bear to the other produce of the country ? I really cannot state it in point of value ; the value is small, corn . pared with that of other goods. In point of giving employment to ships ? There were 566 ships employed last year in the trade between Petersburg and the United Kingdom ; of that number, there were about a hundred British ships employed in the wood trade. What proportion of the ships employed in the Russian trade do you conceive, upon the whole, are employed in the conveyance of timber ? I should think in the proportion of one-fifth or one-sixth ;my information is entirely limited to the ports of Petersburg and Riga, I have no information as to other ports ; there are ports, such as Onega and N arva, where the trade is almost entirely the wood trade ; of those ports I have no means of giving any information, not having establishments there. In vessels of what country is the timber trade between Russia and this country carried on ? Entirely in British vessels ; when I say entirely, the amount in foreign vessels is so small, as to make it not worth mentioning. Do you speak to the two ports only, or to the whole ? Always to those two ports ; but I have no doubt it is the same to the other ports also. If any increased importation of wood was to take place from Russia, do you conceive that would continue to be imported in British vessels exclusively ? Yes, I conceive so. State the reasons for that opinion ? The quantity now imported, being brought entirely in British ships, I conceive any increased quantity would be brought like wise in British ships. The difference of duty between a foreign ship and a British, would operate in inducing importations in British ships ; and there are not many Russian ships that could be so employed ; the commercial navy of Russia is very limited. Do you know any Russian ships that were employed in that way some years ago ? Yes, I know two or three ships that have occasionally brought a cargo from Petersburg to England. During the interruption of the trade, the trade was entirely conducted in Russian and other foreign ships ; but since the peace, it has been almost exclusively carried on in British. We have had one or two cargoes in the course of that time, in Russian ships. Do you apprehend that a diminution of the duty upon foreign timber, would increase, to any considerable degree, the imports from Russia ? Yes, I do. As far as your opinion g o es , w o u ld th a t b e a tt en d e d by an increased consumption of British produce, and export of our manufactures to Russia ? I think on a general view, it would have that effect, certainly. You have resided in Russia ? I have. Are the Russians disposed to take our manufactures ? Very much so. In preference to the manufactures of other countries ? Decidedly so. They get them generally cheaper, and therefore it is their own interest to take them ; I do not know that there is any other predilection than that. Are you of opinion, from your knowledge of Russia, that the duties imposed upon timber and upon linens have had an injurious effect on the intercourse of this country with Russia ? With respect to linens, it has had the effect of entirely an nihilating that trade ; with respect to wood, the importations as far as I know from Petersburg, have been upon the decrease for the last three or foitr years ; and regu. larly on the decrease, as I can show by lists which I have brought with me for the years 1817, 1818, 1819, and 1820. State the result. The exportation of deals in 1817, from Petersburg to Great Britain, was 2,230,595 standard deals ; the exportation in 1818 was 1 1 564,110 ; the exportation in 1819 was 1,237,208 standard deals; and the exportation last year was only 1,090,015 standard deals ; so that the exportation has been, for the last four years, constantly and regularly decreasing. What do you apprehend would be the effect.of such an alteration of the present mode of levying the duties on deals, as should 'make them lay by their• cubical contents ? I apprehend the effect would be throwing such an advantage into the hands of Norway, as to give her, in point of fact, a monopoly of the trade. Are there any saw mills or other establishments formed in Russia, with a view to the timber trade of this country ? Yes, several. Are they considerable ? Yes, very large. Where most of the deals that come into this country arc cut ? Yes, where they are all cut. What proportion of them are under the direction of subjects of this country, or carried on by British capital ? I know of only one mill, whose proprietors are English ; there may be more ; that one is at Riga. Do you know whether any British subjects have an interest in any of the others? No ; I do not know that they have. What is the price of deals at Petersburg and at Riga ? The last price of red wood deals at Petersburg was 61. 19s. per standard hundred on board, and the price for the same article at Riga, by the last advice, was 71. 10s. per Petersburg standard hundred on board. What is the freight ? The usual freight varies; I should think about 41. per Petersburg standard hundred ; we have paid four guineas last year; and had some ships at 31. 1.55. Are you aware of any regulations in Russia, which may have been, in part, the cause of the diminution in the export of timber ? No, lam not. The account you have given of the diminished export of timber from Russia, is confined to particular parts ? To Petersburg only ; the exportation of deals from Riga was less last year than it was the year before. Have you any statement to give of the export from all the ports of Russia gene rally to this country ? No, I have not. What number of voyages do the timber ships from Petersburg and from Riga usually make in a year ? From Petersburg two. Never more? There may occasionally have been instances of three, but two is the number they generally make. You have stated that the price of Petersburg deals is 61. 19s. per standard hun dred, have you any calculations, either of the same quantity, or any greater quan tity, to show what the proceeds of the deals are in this country at the present time, compared to their cost ? Yes, I have a calculation of that sort, which, if it is the pleasure of the committee, I will give in. I see that the proceeds of a hundred of Petersburg deals, reduced to the Norway standard, is 51. Os. 9d. ; the same sort on board, reduced to the Norway hundred, would cost 111. 9s. on board. Consequently the trade from Petersburg is now carried on at a loss ? At a very great loss. What were the prices of deals at Petersburg two years ago ? I cannot state that accurately, except from memory. How long has the trade been in the state in which you have now described it, with respect to the proceeds ? I should think, for the last eighteen months, the prices have been falling here so considerably. To what do you attribute that fall of price ? I attribute it to the extreme low price at which American deals are sold, and the large importations. If there was no duty on Russian deals, at what price could they be sold in this country, with a fair profit to the importer ? I think they might be sold at about 131. per Petersburg standard hundred. At what price could they be sold under the present duties, with a fair profit to the importer ? One or two-and.twenty pounds the Petersburg standard hundred. [The witness delivered in the paper, which was read as follows.] No. 1. Norway trade, under the existing system : Selling price of a hundred of Norway deals, viz. 120 pieces of 12 feet 3 in. 9 inch Freight - - Commission and charges - Duty on a foreign ship - 1. s. (1. 38 ..—. 4 2 10 l, 28 21 10 - Balance for prime cost on board No. 2. Baltic trade, under the existing system : Russia red deals, 120 pieces, 16 feet 3 in. 10 inch (the average dimensions according to the report of the commissioners of customs) contain 2 cwt. 1 qr. 21 lbs. standard hundred of 43 13 120 pieces, 12 feet 11 inch, 11 inch, which is 181. per standard hundred, is - - - - - - Freight - - - - 11 9 2 Commission and charges - - 3 10 -- 35 14 10 Duty in a British ship - - 20 15 8 Balance fur prime cost on board - 'Which is equal to the quantity of wood contained in the Nor way standard hundred of 120 pieces, 12 feet, 3 inch, 9 inch, 5 9 6 only - - - - - - No. 3. Baltic trade, under the existing system : Russia deals, 120 pieces, 20,feet 3 inch, 11 inch (the largest possible size) contain 3 cwt. 1 qr. 10 lbs. standard hundred an ..... -- of 120 pieces, 12 f ee t, I i i nc h, 1 1 i nc h , w hi ch is 181. per "' standard hundred - - - - - - Freight - - Commission and charges Duty in a British ship - 7 18 2 15 15 - 5 - -} 41 10 8 20 15 8 Balance for prime cost on board 18 19 4 Which is equal to the quantity of wood contained in the Nor way standard hundred of 120 pieces of 12 feet, 3 inch, 3 inch, 9 1 4 only- - - - - - No. 4. Norway trade, by a graduated scale, same as in Ireland : Selling price of a hundred of Norway deals, of 120 pieces, 12 38 feet, 3 inch, 9 inch - - . Freight - - - - 4 Commission and charges - - 2 10 19 8 6 Duty in a foreign ship - - 12 18 6 Balance for prime cost on board l 8 II 6 The cost price, in 1820, of red wood d ea l s on b oar d at S t. P eters b urg, was per Petersburg standard hundred, 61. 10s. to 71. St. Petersburg standard hundred of 120 pieces, 12 feet long, inches thick, and 11 inches broad, contains 165 cubic feet. A Norway hundred of 120 pieces, 12 feet long, 3 inches thick, and 9 inches broad, contains 270 cubic feet ; so that such deals cost in St. Petersburg, per Nor way hundred, at the above prices, no less than from 101. 12s. Bd. to I IL 9s. Id. on board. Have you any grounds for your reason, why the establishment of the duties, if it should so take place, by the cubic measure, would prove so detrimental to the Russian trade, and beneficial to the Norway ? Yes ; I infer so from the progress of the trade as it has hitherto been conducted ; I find, that as the duties have been hitherto levied, Norway has her full share of the trade ; and that she obtains, in fact, a better price for her deals than we do, and more net proceeds ; and, conse quently, if they have such an advantage given them as to reduce the duty from 211. which they now pay, to 121. which would be the effect of the alteration, they would have suck an advantage over us as to drive us completely out of the market. Mr. Robert Banton Roxby called in ; and examined. 'You are a ship-owner at Shields ? I am. How long have you been a ship-owner there ? Thirty years. Have you a considerable number of ships in your own possession at Shields ? Three or four. Where have those ships generally traded to ? Since the year I 808 they have traded nearly altogether to North America, Quebec, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia. They have been employed in bringing wood from thence ? They h ave en ti re ly. Can you state what numbe r o f s hip s belong to the port of Newcastle ? Eight hundred and thirty-one were registered in the port of Newcastle in September 1819. What is the amount of their tonnage? One hundred and eighty-three thou sand, some few hundreds. ' What number of seamen do they employ on board those ships ? Upwards of 9,000. ' Your observations now extend to the port of Newcastle generally ? Yes, in cluding North and South Shields, Blythe, and Hartley. In what -trade are the ships of the port of Newcastle generally employed ? The coasting and the foreign trade ; lam speaking of the year 1819. In the year 1819 there were 475 ship s i n th e coas ti ng t ra d e , an 356 in the foreign trade. What proportion of that number of ships were employed in the North Ameri can trade ? Two hundred and nine. What is the amount of their tonnage ? Sixty thousand tons. What number of men are employed in the ships in the North American trade ? Nearly three thousand. What is the state of the shipping trade at present in the port of Newcastle ? Very much depressed ; I never knew it so much so. What are the particular causes which have led to the depression of the shipping interest in that port ? The very low state of the freights last year. Have you not received an intimation, that if any additional duty should be laid on Canada timber imported, that must be deducted from the freights to compensate the grower of the wood in Canada ? The ship-owner is aware that if any duty is laid on the American timber it must come off the freight ; the freight was extremely low last year, and of course that will make it less this. Then your opinion is, that any alteration of the timber duties will very materially affect that part of the shipping interest connected with the port of Newcastle ? It is. Could those ships, that are now employed in the North American timber trade, be transferred to the Baltic trade ? A few of them might, but not many; the ships employed in the American trade are too large for the Baltic in time of peace. Are there not considerable ship-building yards and docks in the port of New castle ? Very extensive ; but the former are almost given up for want of employ ment. You are of opinion, that any additional duties on the importation of the North American timber, will probably lead to the total giving up of the whole of those building yards ? 'We conceive so ; indeed, if the shipping is any more injured thani ti at present, they must give up the trade altogether. Have you yourself had much business in the trade with Norway ? Not lately. At one time, a good deal of business was carried on from the port of Newcastle, with the ports of the Baltic ? A good deal. Has that trade diminished much lately ? It has almost ceased. You think it would be impossible for the ship-owners of that port to transfer the vessels they now use in t North American trade, to_ anz extent to the Baltic trade ? They cannot, th are too largeb From the knowledge you have of that part of the country, are you not of opinion, that any duties on the North American trade, would be equally prejudicial to the shipping interests of the port of Sunderland? Equally so. There is a very considerable interest in shipping, in the port of Sunderland ? There are six hundred sail belonging to the port of Sunderland, and their tonnage is about 84,000. Do you know the number of men employed in the port of Sunderland ? Upwards of five thousand seamen. The observations you make as applicable to the port of Newcastle, relative to the injurious effect of a duty being laid on American timber, will apply equally to the port of Sunderland ? Not equally ; the shipping belonging to the port of Sun derland are of a smaller class, and many of them do not go to America. What proportion of those in the port of Sunderland, are in the American timber trade ? I should think, not more than one-sixth; the rest are employed in the trade to the continent principally, and some few to the Mediterranean, and a very little West India trade. You are not aware that there is any complaint made of the badness of the timber imported from North America ? Not any, that I know of; there was at first, but that has nearly ceased, in my opinion ; in the ports of Sunderland and Newcastle, they find the British American timber so much larger, and so much better adapted for the purposes in the collieries, where almost all the timber is consumed, that it is perhaps the best timber they ever had, or can have, for that purpose. Do you conceive, fiom your knowledge of that part of the country, and of the trade in which that country is concerned, that any additional duty laid upon the raw material employed in the collieries would materially affect them in their basi ness? I should conceive so. You have stated, that the freights are very low at present? They are. Are they low in all trades, as well as the timber trade ? Lower in proportion in the timber trade, we think, than any other, in my opinion. Is ship-building going on now in those ports ? It has almost entirely ceased, very few ships are building. Since what time? Since the year 1819. Did it continue up to that time, as usual ? In the years 1818 and 1819, some few ships were built at Newcastle, and several at Sunderland. What were the usual number built at Now...tic r IL is halal t. eay What should you take to be the annual average number built at Newcastle since the peace ? I should think not more than twelve or fifteen upon the Tyne ; the number at Sunderland is very considerable. What do you conceive to have been the annual number built at Sunderland ? I can hardly give an answer to that question, but I should think fifty or sixty. What number of ships do you conceive are now building on the Tyne ? I am told only five ; I b e li eve th at is the utmost. Do you know the number of the ships now building within the port of Sunder land ? lam told fourteen or fifteen. Are the ships sailed at a loss now ? At a considerable loss. What is the reason then for the building being continued ? The builders some. times have very large establishments ; a great number of apprentices, that they cannot get clear of until they have served their time; their building-yards and docks are taken on lease at a high rent, and they are under the necessity of building, and taking their chance what they can get for their ships. They find it, I suppose, cheaper to do that, and to pay the establishment, and the poor rates and other rates attaching to the premises. You state that there are some ships now building in the port of Newcastle, is there not a large proportion of American timber employed in building those ships ? Not a great deal; they equip them in the flooring or lower decks, and bulkheads ' and bulwarks, and so on, with American timber. You have no reason to complain of the nature of American timber for those put- , poses to which you apply it in building your ships ? Not the least so ; I have laid one ship's deck with American timber, and I approve of it before the other. The ship I speak of had two decks, a quarter-deck and a main-deck : the main-deck was laid with American yellow pine, and part pitch pine; the quarter-deck was laid with wood from the Baltic. The ship has been at Sierra Leone, which was a very trying place for ships ; they pine and rend there with the heat of the sun more at that port than any port which I know. On her arrival at home, I examined the decks very minutely, and I found the American decks had not rent or pined so much as the Baltic decks ; the ship is here, and can be inspected. You have stated that the ships have been principally employed in the American wood trade since the year 1808, in what trade were they employed before that time ? In the Baltic trade in some degree, but mostly in the coal trade before that period, and in the transport service, but not constantly employed in any way. Why were they put into the timber trade ? They were ships of large tonnage, and they suited that trade much better than any other trade I could find for then' after they were discharged by government. Were they originally too large for the Baltic trade ? Yes, excepting in time of war ; they might perhaps have done then, but in time of peace they were always too large for the Baltic trade. Does the Baltic trade require larger ships in time of war than in time of peace ? The merchants cannot get small ships then, and are obliged perhaps to take the large ; they always prefer small ships to large ones, except for carrying masts. The Sunderland ships are smaller ships ? Yes, much smaller. Then the objection to turning the Sunderland ships into the Baltic trade, dee ° not apply in the same way to them, that it does to the Newcastle ships ? It doe s not ; the port of Sunderland has very few ships comparatively speaking that go into the Baltic trade. When you speak of low freights, does that apply to all trades, the coasting trade and the coal trade? Yes. Are they all low equally ? Not equally, the American freights are lowest I think. To what do you attrib u t e th e l owness o f the American freight ? Principally to the over-trading in the year 1819, when such an immense quantity of timber ivas brought into this country. Is it not true that the ships from the east coast go to Liverpool and to the west coast for employment ? They in part supply all the kingdom of Great Britain. Is not the American trade from the west coast, principally carried on by chips from the east coast ? I cannot say principally, but a great number of ships g°, from the port of N ewcast l e to t h e west coast, Li verpool, Br i stol, to Ireland, and to Scotland. Do you happen to know whether a great proportion of those ships which can/ on the American timber trade, do or do not belong to the eastern ports ? A very great proportion of them belong to the eastern ports. How many, voyages do they usually make in the year from the western ports ? From the western ports, generally two. From the eastern ports ? Seldom more than one ; I never had a ship that made a second voyage except one, she made two; but I should never send another, it pats them so late into the season, they get torn to pieces in coming home. In the neighbourhood of Newcastle have you latterly been much in the habit of using American timber ? Yes. Do you use it for the frame of the ship in ship-building ? Never; English oak is preferred in that country. Do you build much with Baltic oak ? No, very little. Is that owing to the high duty ? Perhaps so ; but the quality of the wood is not preferred in that quarter. You prefer the American oak ? Yes, to the Baltic oak ; but there is very little comes to that port ; there was formerly a good deal of Hamburgh wood went to that port. Have you been in the habit of using a good deal of the American fir ? Yes. For what purpose is it generally used in the country ? It is used for all purpose s ; both for building houses and in ship-building, ex ce pti ng , as I sa id, i n t h e froraF s and planking of the ships ; they do not use it for that ; I have used it myself 111 building houses. What sort of houses do you apply it to; to the better sort of houses, or the in ferior sort of houses ? The houses, perhaps, of the second or third descriPti°" - The house I built was of the first description ; a shop in the town of Sunderland. And you used the American fir? For part of the house ; not altogether. Is it generally found as good for all inside work, and those common purposes ? I should prefer it for my part, for inside work, from what I have seen of it; I have used it for twenty years. Is there much consumption for packing-cases and things of that kind, in yoi!t part of the country ? There is a good deal used, but not like the quantity used sn Liverpool and Manchester. What do you conceive to be the proportion that the American fir used ther e ' bears to the whole con sumpt i on o f timber? Full two-thirds of American ; t he collieries consume the m os t o f t h e t i m b er t h at i s i mporte d there, and they find roe American timber so much preferable to the other, that they use it in preference! it is at a cheaper price, and being much broader, it answers their purpose better at the bottom of the pits. Is the consumption of timber in the collieries very great ? Very great. On the whole, for those purposes, the American timber is rather preferre d t c , Altogether ; for some purposes they will not use any other timber, if they eau g e that at a cheaper rate. Do you think they would prefer the American at equal prices ? I think ti ler would not, at equal prices, for the collieries. Do you think they would prefer the American at an equal price, for the t r r, purposes for which it is generally used, independent of s hip-b u ildin g , inside W ° its and so on ? I.think so, as far as my opini on goes . ; I s h ou ld m y se lf : it 0 . much better ; it is clearer from knots, and d oes no t ren d so muc h w h en i t is 11 , 1 , 10 0 seasoned ; season it equally with Baltic timber, and I conceive it would u° t so much. If it was considerably lower it would, of cou rse , b e p re f erre d ? No dou bt. Then supposing it to continue considerably c h ea p er , w h at reaso n have you believe that any alteration would take place in the i m p or t a ti on o f it to that pa rt oi W. the country ? I should believe it would not, if it continued considerably che a P er. What degree of cheapness do you think would still preserve it in full consumption ' there, do you think thirty shillings a load would be sufficient ? I t hink in the p orts of Sunderland and Newcastle, that might do, for the p re judice is partly done away with against the American,timber in those two places, but I ca nnot answer for o ther places, as I know there is yet a strong prejudice against it . Then what reason have you to state that any alteration that is made in the exis tin g duties, must have a considerable effect upon the shipping of the ports of S underland and Newcastle ? Because in my opinion, if any duty at present should be laid upon the American timber, the merchant would expect the amount of that dull to be taken from the freight. How would that follow, if the consumption and the demand remained the "nig? 11 x . the go ; We 1)1n, of , She that get