The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-06 00:00:00

)e " o m rt d ?. 1U rce r ° ' f gre C l 5 )er of THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 6, 1844. tro24 Lora i MiNTo and HADDINGTON, in explanation, The Duke Of RICHMOND said that in order to put. an end to the discussion, and, for the satisfaction of both sides of the House, he would take the oppoy tunity of presenting a petition from MorpPth against the bastardy clauses in the Poor-law Amendthent Act. The petitioners stated, that out of 476 births in the Union,. 49 were illegitimate children; and that, of the births in the townofMorpeth, one in six were illegitimate. BETTING ON PUBLIC SPORTS. On the order of the day for the second reading of this Bill being read, Lord BROUGHAM wished to put it .to his .Noble Friend who had just sat down, whether, instead of the Bill of which he had given notice, to legalise betting upon certain sorts of public sports, to which there was a great objection in certain quarters, it would not be better to postpone for a time his prospective measure, and in the meanwhile to bring forward a short Bill to the qui tam actions which were pending The Bishop of LONDON said that he could not allow the occasion to pass without expressing his diSapproba tion of any measure which would go to legalise gamb- ling. The Dulie of RICHMOND said, he had a right to complain of the Right Rev. Prelate assuming that his Bill was intended to promote gambling ; on the con trary, he firmly believed that if the Bill was carried into • a law it would diminish betting. He was not a better himself,- but he was convinced that if something was . not done the pre sent system would ruin the " Turf" altogether. His only object was to compel the fair loser to pay the fair winner. He wished to encourage the manly amuse ments of the people, which had been of late too much discouraged. He had rather see the people enjoy the manly sport of cricket, than sit in sullen sottishness in a beer-shop. He would not place himself in oposition to the Noble and. Learned Lord opposite (Lord Brougham) on a subject of law, and he would therefore postpone the general Bill, and bring in one for stopping the qui tum actions and defeating the objects of those "scoundrels," who, because last year their own practices were dis covered, had raked up Acts of Parliament, of which oddish constructions had been made.—(lt ear.) Lord B iI.OUGHAM thought it would be well to refer the whole of the laws relating to batting to a Se:ect Committee. The Bishop of LONDON had not attributed to the Noble Duke any wish to increase the evil of gambling. He thought, however, that the tendency of the Noble Duke's measure would be to in crease that evil. He had always ished to co-operate with the Noble Duke in his efforts to promote the happiness. the morals, and the indepen dence of the people. He agreed with the Noble Duke respecting the expediency, the policy—and he would say, the duty—of promoting the manly recreations of the poor. Whenever these reer , ations were placed and r restraint, nothing but paramount necessity could justify the restriction. Lord CAMPBELL said that he honel their Lord ships would not sanction the Bill of the Noble Duke. which weirld have the effect oe encouraging gambling and making all kinds of bets recoverable in Courts of Law. Lord DENMAN thought the Noble Duke had a right to complain that when he had agreed to postpone his Nob'e Lords thought proeer to enter into a dis cussien on it. He (Lord Denman) thought that the whole Bill ought to be referred to a Select Committee. The Mike of RICHMOND said that the gamblers against which he meant to legislate had no characters to lose, and cared not what risk they incurred. He entirely agreed with his Noble Friend the Lord Chief Justice, and therefore suggested that the order of. the day for the second reading of the Bill be referred to a Select Committee. A hundred thousand pounds might be bet upon a horse in London, if the better could learn intelligence of the winning horse by a carrier pigeon or by any other means ; and what was more that bet could be legally recovered as was lately decided. That debt was recoverable at common law, but if the money was bet fairly at the race it could not be recovered ; if they bet at a race at which no money had been contended for, then the bet was reco verable. In fact, the present law was full of absurdities, and was very well worthy of the attention of their Lordships. The Noble Duke concluded by moving the discharge of the order of the day.—Agreed to. The Duke of RICHMOND said he would, to-morrow, in all probability, bring in a Bill on the subject himself. It was then ordered that the laws relating to.gaming be referred to a Select Committee of their. Lordships. HEALTH OF TOWNS BILLS. The Marquis of NORMANBY said he had a question of some importance to put, which he hoped some member of the Government would be in a position to answer. It was on a subject entirely distinct from that which had just occupied their Lordships' attention, but, one which he was sure they would all concur in con sidering of vastly greater importance. When he stated to their Lordships that his question had reference not only to the cleanliness and comfort, but to the morals of the poor, he was sure none of them would for a moment underrate its importance. The question was in reference to some measures which had passed their Lordships' House no less than three tutees, and he could not but say that it was with feelings of grievous disappointment he now again called their Lordships' attention to them. Some considerable time back—in the year 1839—a Right Rev. Prelate, whom he did not then see in his place, made a motion on the subject of the state of the dwellings of the poor, especially in large towns, and in consequence of this motion a Commission was appointed by the Secretary for the Home Department, to further investigate and report upon the subject. In the following year, in consequence of the information for warded to the Government, the Secretary of State for the Home Departruktt extended its powers and func tions to Scotland. Such a case for interference was almost immediately made out, as the result of the labours of'the Commission, that he (Lord Normanby ) at once brought the question before his colleagues, and, in 1841, he also brought the subject before their' Lordships - , and introduced Bills, with a view to commence remedial measures as quickly as possible. To the principle of those Bills, their Lordsh;ps assented' unanimously ; but in order to make the details of them as perfect as pos sible, it was suggesteethat they shOuld he referred to a Select Committee up stairs. Never did a Committee work with greater assi .uity or success. The Bil's passed through V.eir Lordships' I louse, but in consequence of the session becoming short, they did not pass through the House of Commons. Next session they were again submitted to their Lordships, and again passed. The session of 1842 concluded, anti upon it came a Circum stance which gave a very particular consideration-to the subject. The Poor-law Commissioners took the matter in hand, and, after due investigation, made a Report upon the subject, and a most important Report indeed it was. That Report might perhaps be an accumulation of facts that were not palatable to the general reader. But it showed that no less than 56,000 persons died annually of diseases which it was in the power of the'Legislature to prevent or remove. This was the same as if the whole population of Huntingdonshire or Rutlandshire was annually swept away by disesse, which the Govern ment m'ght prevent. More information on this subject was certainly not what the Government required—of information they had enough. The suggestions of the Report might or might not have been adopted, but ad ditional information was not required ; even if it had been, the Commission ought to have been appointed at once ; but from the time the Report was made till the present session of Parliament, not one step had been taken. If he should now hear that it was not likely a measure would be introduced on this subject, he should feel it his duty again to call on their Lordships to affirm the principle which he had already been fortunate enough three times to receive their approbation. Whe ther or not a Bill were brought in this session, he could not exempt that department. of the _Government with which this measure rested from some blame for not hav ing taken up the former Bill, and amended it, if re quired amendment, or, if further inquiry were neces sary, for not having caused that inquiry to be made. The Duke of BUCCLEUCH said the Noble Marquis had found fault with her Majesty's Ministers for not having taken up this subject in the former session of Parliament. But the fact was, this measure was drawn up when the Report was not completed. In 1841, when the Report was presented, the Bill for the improvement of the town of Leeds was introduced. The Commission met on 3d of June, and sat three days a week until the end of July ; up to this time there had been no delay. The Commission bad laboured even during the recess, and visited fifty-one towns. The Noble Lord seemed to think that the report made by the Commission could be legislated upon immediately. No person who retd that report could doubt of the misery and wretchedness which existed in several towns, and even in the metropolis itself—a condition truly dis graceful to this country. Disease was of a very de structive character and' very prevalent. No person pos sessed of the commonest feelings of humanity but would exclaim against these things remaining as they were. But it was a very different thing to legislate on the subject—to introduce an effectual remedy. The Commissioners found more difficulty than. was generally imagined. In suggesting a proper mode for . , curing these evils, a new system of drainage was the principal thing ; but could this be effected for nothing. Let them look to the metropolis itselE Those who had not heard the evidence laid before the Commission by scientific men, could have no idea of the extreme diffi culty of carrying out a regular systematic drainage in the metropolis under the existing state of things. Some regard should be paid to another point, the supply of ater, without which the drains would be choked up and rendered useless. Now, the supply of water in London, as the Commissioners would wish it to be sup plied, was a most difficult thing. They had to contend with vast anti complicated interests--large companies—and it Has really hard to think hoc they could be compensated; but with all the in formation contained in the R port, and with all the curious papers that had been laid before the Commis mis-ion, he was not prepared to lay before the House any measure for their Lordships' et nsideration. If the Bill is et .Im/tended to their Lordships were carried into effect, the serve) ors' , fees alone would amount to 80,000/. Any Bill that could be introduced would be come a dead letter, frOm . the diffictqty of, carrying it into effect. The Commission had everywhere been received in the most fasourable meaner by the working classes and by the municipal authorities: Mott curious infor mation had been laid bef re the Committee regarding the drainage and supplying of water to towns on the Con'inent and in America. but he repeated that he was not at present prepared to offer any recommendation on the course which should be pursued. The Marquis of NORMANBY never heard a more unsatisfactory explanation than that offered by the Noble Duke ; he considered that the Government were greatly to blame in allowing these evils to continue so long without proposing some remedy. The Duke of BUCCLEUCH explained. • • Lord FITZWILLIAM was understood to say that he, considered it very difficult to legislate on the subject. STATE OF IRELAND. The Duke of WELLINGTON, seeing the Noble it af t (Fitzwilliam) in his place, rose to inform him that w „. niot r n not his intention to offer any opposition to the .1 - " n of the Noble Earl relative to certain accounts IL r eturns respecting the military and police in Ireland. %) ,,,,, 3 tated this in the hope that the Noble Earl might eland to forbear all reference to recent events in agEarl FITZWILLIAM said he had no inclination at eVer to break the understanding which prevailed No to the expediency of abstaining from all allusion --alio at present. He was glad to hear that the birle Duke and her Majesty's Ministers did not intend ta a ?,." er any opposition to the motion he was about to a e —e • His Lordship then moved for the production of e t oun tsLaccording to notice.—Agreed to. dek ( l rd , X9RMANBY, from the same wish not to in der- 1111 anY remarks on events now pending in Ireland, lair"' his motion on the state of Ireland till Tuesday, Iv o in st Between the present time and that day, .he old announce to the House the precise shape in which ti e l Meant to make his motion. If it was probable that tri a l s would not terminate by that day, he would wive du e notice of further postponement. brh OPERATIONS IN CHINA. e L O RD CHANCELLOR communicated to the 11, 1 1se that he had received a letter from Admiral f ot r l e r , a cknowledging the vote of thanks of the House tan.e"te.gallant conduct of her Majesty's naval force en thain the operations in China. His Lordship , then ehi the letter, which was dated from her Majesty's . Cornwallis. Hong-Kong, June 15, 1843. -Gar 0114 I / UNTO expressed some degree of disappointment bad B °lne further mark of her Majesty's approbation p statj l°t been conferred upon Admiral Parker. He m t aat some feeling of dissatisfaction existed in the nitv"i ta at a baronetage had not been d uon e at:"nanaander as had been done bestowe in the caseof the 3'. , Th %tab,: 'Art of HADDINGTON believed that it was (W to their Lordships at the time the Noble Duke ) made the speech which never could be f :do - tt i Z t by the navy, when the thanks of that House had to the naval and military commanders who Wards in China, that the reason why the two re at were not bestowed on Sir William . Parker Gou g e same same time, that they were on Sir Hugh b e gry• was, that it would have appeared to meat 111,1 g m ore to one than the other. The Govern tisuatt no anxiety but to deal fairly by both parties, r e di u na th ,. at „' e Noble Lord could well say that her Majesty's a„°o—rntrient duly appreciated the services of the navy y. He They were certainly most extra- He did not advert merely to the gallantry ; that was a matter of course, for the navy etwini:requently gone against more formidable that t than the Chinese. But he knew cu nsi rinF the large ships to the walls of Nankin was Fora, n r qu • by the navy as a very extraordinary per- It would be in the recollection of the e res se that Sir Hugh Gough had earned the Grand I C' l l ° l i n as ; e f the l B ee a d. th before Sir William Parker arrived in th e i r • At the conclus'on of their joint services, for b ar ?tent, distinguished, and meritorious conduct, G ro l c r pr was awarded to Sir Huth Gough . and . Park e ' r °s s of the Bath was given to Sir ti% illiam , ett . sori r. Sir William Parker had since been informed the at t h e a wbY both rewards were not conferred upon him tha t s. aill e tale. P arke r illiam He (the Earl of Haddington) trusted Parker was satisfied. Sir William ~lar had also been informed of the intention of her 114:testy's Government to bestow upon him the other It would be in the recolleetion of their Lord s3BlulLlP.4'urt:littt at the time of the former discussion en this D la l ty , Gvko- aysersnantntthatto. c it on vt re a r s up th o e n intention of , her , Sir Willi .m Par ". t he farther honour ; Aye" said the Noble Earl Par on that occ • Lord m 9 1 °o, " when he hauls d..vin his flag." ing INTO said that he did not recollect ever hay hot ‘_l o ct _the language attributed to him ; but he would op)orsie.his recollection against that of the Noble Earl jet,t_t,ent7tiloHnA-of.DthDeINGTON said that it had alwaysbeen the cti,tc.t., their veryGhoige h rn ss m iern e :s, n ; t i t oll o k. mark, in every way they the great however, which llat.neen performed. eZs.,ol.great a share in the ach m ie m vemen e ts r, :ie ver dhina orectlig navalr Hugh G,,0 h, who had conducted nut th! ene perations, ugh, those of the army, into V ry Lord Of Chna. that it .:utTGIIAM begged to interpose. He thought in-etr . "as Mos t unconstituti ona l f or N o bl e L ords to k lil ' t4 e ija re ()tip the prerogative of her Majesty . as the Q°l2olll%—(Cheers.) Tie Coppnittee, for inquiring into the laws on gaming was then . appointed. - - The Duke of RICHMOND gave notice that he should to-morrow move for the copy of a letter from the As sistant:Secretary of-the Treasury to the clerks of the peace,. acid dated Dec. 2, 1843, his object being to induce . the Governtnene of the country to with4raw it. Lord MONTEAWLE gave notice that he should to morrow Move Tor certain returns from the Bank of Eng land. His Lordship also gave notice that he should at the same time put a question to the Government with a view of ascertaining if it was their intention to take any measures in respect to the Bank of Ireland at the time they proposed those measures having reference to the Bank of England. His Lordship laid on the table of the House a Bill to facilitate the recovering of sums of money by certain teachers in Ireland, which had passed their Lordships' House last session, but hid dropped in the other House in consequence of the late period it ar-. rived there, and the heavy pressure of other business of greater importance. The House then, at Five Minutes after Six, adjourned until to morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 5. The SPEAX,NR took the Chair at Four o'Clock. PRIVATE BILLS. On the motion of Mr. STRUTT, the following Mem bers were appointed as a Select Committee-on Petitions for Private Bills, viz. :—Mr. Strutt, Mi. Robert Clive, Mr. Rice, Mr. Villiers Stuart, Mr. Wrightson, Mr. George Cavendish, Mr. Crompton, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. Pakington, Mr. Forbes, Mr. Beckett, Sir John Yarde Buller, Mr. Brampton, Mr. Richard Walker, Mr. George Philips, Mr. Bell, Mr. Gibson Craig. O'Conor Don, Mr. Forbes Mackenzie, Mr. Hmman, Mr. Eliott Yorke, Mr. Kemble, Mr. Aglionhy, Captain Jones, Mr. Thornely, Mr. Barneby, Mr. Benjamin Wood, Mr.' Tatterton Egerton, Mr. Stansfield, Lord Worsley, Henry Baillie, Mr. Edward Buller, Sir William Heath: cote, Henry Hope Johnstone, Mr. Morgan John O'Connell, Mr. Packe, Mr. Acland, Mr. Evans, Mr.. 1-tome Drum mond, Mr. Parker, Mr. Marshall, and Mr. E. P. Shirley.. Mr. S.. CRAWFORD gave notice that he should to morrow make the motion on •the subject of the redress of grievances, of,Which he had previously given notice. THE CENSUS. Capt. PECHELL wished to know from the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, when it might he expected that the Report of the Census Commissioners would be laid upon the table ? •• • Sir JAMES GRAHAM was most anxious that the Report should_ be .laid before the House as soon as possible, and it would be his duty, as soon as that should be done, to see that the Report be referred to a Select Committee. At the same time he was afraid that the Re port could net be laid upon the table before the recess. METROPOLIS IMPROVEMENT BILL. On the Order of the Pay being read for the second reading "of the Metropolis Improvement Bill, iiugE desired . to know what was the principle of the Bill. It was unusual to move the second reading of a Bill Without the House havfrig been informed of its principle. He had certainly seen the Bill in the ante: room; but he had had no opportunity of making himself acquainted with its provisions. This might be a Bill for authorising the expenditure of money, and he 'wished to be informed of the principle of the Bill. Lord LINCOLN said that an Act. had been passed some time • since for improving the metropolis. Some doubts had arisen as to the construction of the Act, and the present Bill was intended merely to remove those doubts, and to carry out the provisions of the former • measure. Mr. HUIVIE would not oppose the second reading of the Bill if the intention of it was merely to carry out the provlsions of the former Act. The Bill was then read a second time. TRAFALGAR-SQUARE. Captain BERNAL begged to ask the Noble Lord, the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests, whether the statue of 'Nelson, in Trafalgar-square, was erected under the sanction of the Woods and Forests ? The Earl of LINCON said that that part of the. imprOvements was made by a committee, by means of subscriptions. The works which are now going on in Trafalgar-square, are under the direction of the office of Woods and Forests. STANDING ORDERS ON RAILWAYS. - Mr. W. GLADSTONE rose to move ;---- ,, That a Select Committee be appointed, to consider the Standing Orders relating to Railways. and,• whether any and what changes ought to be - - made in those Standing Orders ; and likewise to con sider whether any and what new provisions ought to be introduced into such Railway Bills rs - may.ciome before the house during the present or future sessions, for;the advantage of the public and the improvement a the rag e way system, and to report their opinion thereon to the House." The Right Hon. Gentleman said.* thicimportant question was one which had on several occasions been the subject of inquiry, and as the several: Soleet= Committees which had sat to investigate . -it, ' - -had left their examinations incomplete, he:: .Should: he• very • brief with the statement which he had now to make to the House. He would, however, very briefly inti mate to the House what were the immediate occasions out of which the proposal which he had now to make had grown. In the first place it appeared to the Go vernment that the time had come when it might be ad• vantageously considered whether, after the operation and the experience of severalyears, some modification might not properly be introduced into the Standing Orders relating to railways There was one of those Standing Orders, for example, which required of all parties seeking to obtain a Bill from the House of Commons, that they should have 10 per cent. of their whole capital de posited before they could succeed in their object. An opinion had been extensively entertained that there would be no disadvantage in reducing the proportion of capital so required as a deposit ; but there was no necessity for locking up at so early a period, and for such a length of time, so considerable a portion of the capital of the company. There was already a Standing Order in the House of Lords limiting the amount to 5 per cent. There was another Standing Order re lating to level-crossings, in which it was also proposed to make • some alteration. He . would not detain the House, by dwelling further upon the Standing Orders; but, over and above the pre sent question, the House would no doubt be aware that the present was a great era in - railways. Great spe culations had taken place with respect to them, but those speculations seemed to have been done away with. During the last two or three years, the specula tions • in railways had considerably diminished ; but in the present session he understood that no less than sixty-six Bills were to be applied for, including upwards of 900 miles, while the present extent of railways ex -ceeded 2,000 miles.—(Hear, hear.) It hail, therefore, appeared to the Government that this was the fitting opportunity to investigate the subject. The propo sal he had to make, comprised those companies coming before Parliament of their own accord. He had divided them into two classes, those Companies coming before the House fof new powers, and new Companies altogether, who were anxious to create new lines joining• to the old. He proposed to take this matter into consideration at the earliest opportunity, not in any unfriendly feeling towards those bodies, but still in that spirit which would be compatible .with the interests of the public. There were many of those companies who sought from the House new powers, and in return for those he thought some equivalent should be rendered to the public. lion. Gentlemen would recollect,that all private commercial Bills, excepting Railway Bills, were subject to the jurisdiction of the Board of Trade, and he thought it would be advisable that some similar jurisdiction should be allowed, which would give the same right of supervision t o the Board of Trade. He wished that this matter should be brought under the consideration of a Committee of the House, and his proposal would refer not only to new companies, which might come be fore the House, but also that existing companies might be subjected to such. arrangements as the Committee might suggest. It was true that it might be difficult to make any rule which might be generally applicable to such different circumstances, but he had no doubt of the right to interfere in the matter. But there was an unusual disposition to restrain the exercise % of that right within the limits of moderation. The exercise of that right, however, at the present moment, on the ground of any general malver sation, or general exaction, by railway companies. would not, in his opinion, be justified. He excluded such considerations from the notice of motion. At the same time it - included the consideration of such arrangements time ned with regard to railroads, a s P ar li ament wou ld recommend. Tnlipere e w ntd ase now come and ome arties were seeking fo r when capital abounded to a n u some mode of investing it. U n d er th es e circumstances , i) it was natural to expect th a t i t wou ld t a ke a direction• towards the 'extension of railways. It was natural to expect under those circumstances, that there would be a disposition to make propositions to Parliament for the es t a bli s h men t of com peting lines.—(Hear, hear.) • This suggested grounds for serious and • delicate consideration. But• his experience of railway system s , i n f o rmed .him that the y must not rely too much on th e sta t em ents which were put forward. The consequence of allowing competing lines would be in many .i ns t ances an ...increase-9f ex: action ; it would be a mere.multiplicatiell o f. monopoly, for such were the facilities of combination that such a w hich wisdom would dictate. Parliament- need , competition only would be a course ve ry far *ern that ,there fore, well consider what course they wou adopt with regard to lines recommended e s . com peting lines. Those observations were. no t in tended to apply to local lines wh ich were re ld c ommetied by the national construction of the country, and the local traffic they were likely to have. But while Parliament had many strong grounds to avoid the prac tice of unlimited competing li nes , existing rail wa y co mpanies had many motives to look themse to the disposition on the part of the peoplelves and it was tar better for t heir own interest to make ',, terms with Parliament satisfactory to the general feeling of the public, than to ex_pose themselves to the opposition of competing lines. subject upon which it . was desirable tha arrangethent should be made. He alluded to the to ' neglect of third class carriages ; he did not mean 0_ ac commodation There w t as so o ra ne e en force upon railway companies such an increase f break down the general arrangement which t _e3 r , adopted-:-those who were willing to pay fo commodation in the third class of carriages. as would first an d second-rate carriages oug ht to have additional comfort, but he thought it matter of im portant concern, whether those who had not the means of paying for the higher class carriages ought not to be covered from the inclemency of the weather.—(Hear, and cheers.) There was a great deal of feel ing •on the subject out of doors, and the feeling was one which was likely to increase. He was exceedingly desirous that no inconvenience should be occasioned by the proceeding now recommended to parties engaged in promoting Bills. He should propose he would then proceed to business, t he nomination of this Committee, with an interval before the Committee , on the part of the Go aasndshloarty as possible ; v ernment, such propositions as they were prepared to . make. After the examination of those whose evidence it was desirable to obtain, they would. re port the general conclusions of the Committee at a period as early as possible, in order that, on all points in which steps vverq taken with regard to Bills before the Hense, no inconvenience or delay should arise. lie was not aware that there was any other particular which he need state to the House, and would now place'the motion in the hands of the Speaker. Mr. LAI3OUCHERE said he did not rise for the purpose of objecting' to the proposition of the Right Honourable Gentleman. He was glad to hear that the Goyernment had brou g ht it forward, because great good would be l ikel y to result from their havin g done so ; but if he understood the Right Honour able Gentleman, the Committee was to examine the whole ,subject 'of the present position of the Legislature with regard to railways ; if he under stood the Right Hon. Gentleman, he said that whenever railway comp anies came before the House, asking for privileges or extensions of powers, the House - had a right to impose en them what conditions they thought proper to insist on. If he understood the Right Hon. Gentleman rightly, it was his intention to refer the whole question of railway legislation to this Committee. The Right Hoe. Gentle man had expressed a hope, in . which he was sure every one would join, that these questions might all be amicably settled with the different railway companies, and that he did not despair of the Committee beingenabled to make recommendations to which all the railway companies of Englandwould equally be willing to agree. lie was afraid, however, that the terms of the motion would preclude the Committee from considering the case of any railway company which did not come before the House for a new Bill; and he sug gested to the • Right Hon. Gentleman the propriety of making the terms of his motion more comprehensive, so as not to preclude the Committee from -taking into their • consideration the subject of railway legisla tion generally.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed in the greater part of what bad fallen from the Right Hon. Gen- tleman. On one subject, however,.he differed from him. ilalication of that capital had been unproductive of any He disagreed - from that part of the Right Honourable i profit wliiitever. While_ there _were companies whose Gentlemae's speech, in which he stated that he consi- 'shares were selling at 250, yet there were others whose dered it might be 'advisable for the Government and the I shares were offered at forty, or fifty, or sixty discount, Right Honourable Gentleman to enter into some sort of but still a great public advantage was derived from those compact with the existing railway companies, to pre- very companies. Look at our bridges, our roads, vent the construction of competing lines of railway.— and our railways, from which the public derived great (Hear.) He thought that in some cases competing lines advantages, without having given one farthing towards of railway might be necessary, in ord e r to secure to the their construction. The Hon. Gentleman said the com public the benefits of competition.—(Cheers.) At panies ought to be compelled to adopt third class pas all events, 'they could do no harm. They sengers.. If the House interfered thus far they would would secure the public against the monopoly have to take the whole management of railways under of carriage possessed by some of the railway companies, their control. They must become responsible for all For instance, the Great Western and Southampton were,. accidents. To suppose the House of Commons and the to a certain extent, competing lines, and the consequence Legislature could do this was impossible. He perfectly had been a reduction in the prices of carriage. He had agreed with the Hon. Gentleman that the public ought to recently, at one of the stations on the Southampton line, be allowed the advantage of new discoveries in science. seen parcels directed to Bath. He had inquired, and He (Sir Robert Peel) would advise existing railways had been informed, that they were competing with the , to consider well what would be the result of the applica- Great Western line, and that when they had. tion of the • atmospheric railway.--(Hear, hear.) Emi a branch to Salisbury, there would exist a still greater:, nent men, who had seen the practical working of this degree of competition, which would undoubtedly - railway in Ireland, had come back very altered in benefit the public.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.; opinion as to the possibility of applying that principle Gentleman had stated too positively that no advantage' generally. He believed that two brothers, men of the could be derived from competing lines.—(Cheers.) He Jewish persuasion, were entitled to the credit of this was sure the public would feel much obliged to the invention. The experienee of its working, over a very Right Hon. Gentleman for having directed his attention few miles in Ireland. was such that very great doubt to the high rate of fares c h arge d f or third-class pas- was entertained whether or not it was not capable of sengers.—(Cheers.) Any one who had travelled on general application at a t r ifli ng comparat i ve expense the Continent could not but be struck with the beneficial Agreeing with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone), effects produced by low third-class fares. There that it would he unwise in the Legislature to encourage labourers went to their work of a morning two competing lines running very near each other; yet he by railway, while here the exorbitant fares was sure his Right Hon. Friend did not mean to ex demanded for- • third-class passengers pressed elude that competition which was greatly effectual— most heavily upon the humbler classes.—(Loud namely, such competition as would take place between cheers.) The country generally was indebted to the London and Manchester, through different lines of coun- Right Hon. Gentleman for the attention he had paid to try. He (Sir R. Peel) did not think that a sufficient ac the subject of railways.—(Cheers.) - commodation was given by railways to third-class pas • Mr. GLADSTONE was anxious that the, attention of sengers. But then it might be urged, on the part of the the Committee should be directed in the first instance to railway companies, that if they were to give additional those railway companies which were about to apply accommodation to the third-class passengers, those who to that House-for additional powers. He hoped that he could afford to-go in the first and second class carriages, should shortly. be enabled, with the consent of all the would go in the third class. It was clearly the interest existing. railway companies, to submit the -general-Alb- ,of -the different railway companies to attract as many jest of railway legislation to the Committee, and.nothine- passengers as possible, by carrying passengers at the could - be -easier than to enlarge. the: pawers from time a cheapest rates. It was perfectly right that the House time-by instructions.—(Hear, hear.) •s:' s. •- . should retain to itself the power of holding out the • Mr. /EBUCK was glad that the subject had -been threat of competition to these companies. But it should brought tinder the consideration' of rthe .1-Louse. He remind them that the advances which were being made thought they ought to have no -half-and.thalf measures in science, must eventually diminish the profits ; but he in 'Telation . to this subject. A • great revolution had trusted that the House would never consent to such a been made in our several relations- by. the introduction . iiolittion'of the principle; or to attempt to reduce the Of' the-railway system. , Parliament had in fact created rate of profits by legislative interference—(Cheers)--or certain -inonopolies, and , he asked the Right Hon. Gen' by interfering with the management of these companies, tleman to go into the whole subject and -.not s con- for he was convinced thisrthe affairs of these companies tent` -himself with • legislating:. in - those cases. :merely could never beso effectually conducted, as when they were in -*Which railway • companies . might apply for conducted by the proprietors themselves.—(Cheers.) fresh- powers. A monopoly-had been created by the Mr. STUART WORTLEY agreed entirely in opi extraordinary advances we had made in physical science, nion with the Right Hon. Baronet. When he considered which could -not have been dreamt of twenty years ago. the absence of competition, he was really surprised at He wanted the Right Hon. Gentleman to deal with rail- the amount of accommodation which the railway com ways-whichhad obtained powers from that House just panies afforded the public.—(Hear, hear.) Persons in in -the same way as he would deal with those which were their station of life had no reason whatever to complain coming to the House. These railways . had obtained a of the accommodation afforded them by the railway com monopoly from Parliament, but Parliament had a per- panies. He hoped the President of the Board of Trade feet right to interfere with them for the public benefit. would consider the suggestions that had made to him, He would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman not to fetter and confer more extensive powers on the Committee. the powers of the Committee with any of those shackles He thought some alteration should take place in the which he seemed disposed to cast upon them. He would composition of the tribunal appointed to assess the corn just allude to a- subject with respect to which the Right pensation to be granted to persons whose property was Hon. Gentleman had involved himself in a mystery— taken by railway companies. Every one conversant competing lines. The RightlElon. Gentleman's proposition with the subject must be aware how very imperfect a was that a competing line would not be beneficial to, but tribunal that was which at present granted that corn tell against, the public. Now, let him suppose a case. The pensation ;it was assessed at present by a jury—twelve Great Western went to Bath, the South Western to men taken by chance, without any power to challenge, Southampton. If by any chance or accident they could who might or not be interested in the question, and who get a line which should make those two lines corn- frequently granted a sum very inadequate to compensate peting lines, there would be a benefit to Southampton the parties far the loss of their property. He would and Bath. In such a case, how was it possible that suggest that the question of compensation should be there should be any disadvantage to the public ? He reerred to arbitration,• and he hoped the attention of wanted the Committee to examine how it would be pos- the Committee would - be directed to the subject. sible, by favouring competing lines, to benefit the public Mr. P. M. STEWART, finding that the Govern by the mere fact of competition, the effect being to ment. although not adopting the suggestions of the lower the prices in each competing railway. If there Right Hon. Member for Taunton, were yet willing, was but one railway in the whole of England, command- virtually, to accede to them, would not oppose the ing every possible communication, the company to whom motion. His Right Hon. Friend the President of the it belonged would be the ruling power in England. If Board of Trade had laid the ground for the revision of he, could divide them—if he could make the South- the railway laws.—(Hear, hear.) He admitted that Western Railway a competing power against the Great there were defects in those laws, and yet there was to Western, he benefited the public ; and if he introduced be no inquiry on the subject. He thought the Com rules and regulations which prevented the amalgamation mittee ought to have the power to inquire into the of the two companies, he conferred a great advantage on w or kin g o f a ll ra il ways , an d h e b e li eve d, b y d o i ng so , the community. When the Hon. Gentleman talkd of great convenience would be given to third-class pas post railways having peculiar po wers or p ecu li ar rights, sengers by all railways.- Another great reason for com he mistook the whole question. Post railways had no pleting the revision, and having a thorough Report from rights except those which Parliament conferred upon the Committee was, that at this moment, owing to the them ; and Parliament, for the ;benefit of the commits great encouragement given to railroads on the Con nity, might revise and alter the rights which had been tinent, and especially by the French Government, Bri given. The Committee should have the po w er of con- tish capital was, to a great amount, seeking for invest sidering what means might be adopted for preventing ment there. Before the Committee dissolved, instruc mischief to the community by monopoly. H e had un- tions ought to be given to the Committee to embrace the derstood that on certain great lines of communication, suggestions of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member the Company had made their arrangements in such a for Taunton, without which their Report would be de manner, that whereas the first class train arrived at its fective, and their labour injurious, with regard to gene destination in six hours, the poor man, who was obliged, cal legislation. from his want of means, to travel in the third-class Colonel SIBTHORP said that he found railroad corn train, was exposed to all the inclemencies of the weather panies always looking to their own advantage without for four-and-twenty hours.—(Hear, hear.) He be- any reference to the public. He was, therefore, op lieved that on the Great Western Railway there was posed to all railroads—(Laughter)—and he saw no no third class train by day.—(Hear, hear.) He would reason to alter his opinion. He called on the Chancel be glad to know whether the. Right Hon. Gentleman for of the Exchequer to levy a tax on railroads. They was prepared to deal with post railways so far as this were the cause of the ruin of a number of persons, such evil was concerned.? Were they to seek to induce those as inn-kespers and small shop-keepers in provincial railways which had obtained powers from the House to towns, Those persons were now in poor-houses, and he concede to their wishes? In his judgment Parliament thought it but fair that those who caused their distress ought-to say to -them "We have conferred certain rights should be taxed. He had seen an Administration which upon you, but as we find that you do not use them as had lest all credit turned out of power, and he hoped he we expected, we will compel you to do what we require." should live to see all the existing railways become bank- Take the case of a poor man going down to Bath. He rupts. could not go by day ;he was obliged to go by night. Mr. PLUMPTRE said there was one point in connec- He must stand the whole time; there was no place for tion with railways to which he wished to call the atten his accommodation ; he had no means of obtaining those tion of the House, and that was the undue use which comforts which were- accessible to those who travelled in was made of them on the Lord's day. He was quite the first class. He (Mr. Roebuck) travelling in the first sure that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had proposed class, was in a place which was very much like a draw- the appointment of this Committee would most calmly ing-room, where he was comfortable and warm, and contemplate every desecration of that day. when he arrived at a station he could go to a fire. The Mr. F. FRENCH said he could not let this opportu - case of the poor, who travelled by the third class was al- nity pass without saying that a sum of 20,000,0001. of together different, and some alteration was necessary. public money had been expended on railways in Eng- He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would do all in his land, and that he thought the fares were nearly treble power to adopt the system of laying down new lines on what they ought to be. existing roads. They had chosen in their extravagant The motion was then put from the Chair and carried way to lay out 60,0001., and the public ought not to pay MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND. such an expenditure. He was prepared to say, that if Mr. W. GLADSTONE, in rising to move for a Se science showed that they could do the thing at 2,0001., lest Committee to inquire into the Merchant Seamen's that was all the public ought to pay.—(Hear, hear.) Fund, said that it was essential that some steps should He felt no doubt that the time was • not far distant when it would be shown that railways might be laid down at be taken with regard to this body. It was a subject of much less than the present proposed expense. He eonsiderable difficulty, and one which called for the most hoped the House would deal with the subject with an serious attention. There were two reasons which in duced her Majesty's -Government to call fora Select unflinching hand. Mr. RUSSELL denied the Statements of the Hon. and Committee, the first of which was, that the subject had Learned Member - for' 'Bath, with respect to third class been before a Select Committee already, and they would, passengers. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had consequently, have the assistance and advice of many y asserted that the third-class passengers were compelled gentlemen who had previousl turned their attention to stand during the j o urney, and also.that there was no to the matter; and next, that the seamen were a class of covering .to the carriage, He ,(sir: Russell)::: wished, men who had the strongest claims upon their sympathies, before the Hon; an d L earn ed Gentleman made such and were of all others the least likely, from their habits, assertions, that he - should inform himself better upon the to bring their grievances before Parliament. subject. . . Mr. LABOUCHERE said he could not agree with Mr. WALLACE said, he was , *glad that the-the- 'the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the necessity of ap ment *had determined to enter tipbn this itiqtrity:, and pointing this Committee, inasmuch as 'one had sat • before upon the same subject. When he (Mr. Labou he hoped that it wo u ld be c a rr i e d out in the spirit pro Member ' 'Bath; and some' 'Course chore) held the same office as that occupied by the Right posed by the Hon. Me adopted which would r en d er equal accOmmodation to Hon. Gentleman he thought it was right that the matter the poor, as that which they formerly had upon the should undergo investigation before the Government highways of Great Britain and Ireland, for it was only proceeded to legislate upon it ; but in the present in since the establishment of railways that this distinction stance the matter had been already considered by a had been made. In the various. Committees which sat Committee of this House, who published a most vo upon this subject in the years 1833, 1834, and 1835, luminous re p ort, and made distinct p ro p osals, recom special care was taken toinquire into the prices which mending an alteration in the law affecting this fund. • should be charged as fares upon the railways ; and at Sir C. NAPIER was glad that the Right Hon. Gen the time it was asserted that the different companies tleman had taken up this matter, and if his suggestion would be perfectly satisfied with six or seven per cent. or assistance could be of any use to that Right Hon. The various railway companies were, like all other par- Gentleman be should be most happy to act as one of the ties, looking after their own interests, while the Committee. public was never consulted at all in the rate at Mr. GLADSTONE explained. which the fares should be fixed. On the Grand Junction After a few words from Mr. RICE, railway he could safely assert that the fares had been Mr. HUME said that he had a number of petitions on twice raised, and he dared to say that the same was the the subject. The pepple of Montrose and other sea case with most of the railways throughout the kingdom. port towns were 'anxious to be allowed to lay their He could•not see why some protection from cold and grievances before the Committee. That was their re wet should not be afforded to the poor man in the third quest. He had no objection to the Committee, but he class carriage; and he thought that the profits derivable hoped there would be legislation on the subject next from the first class passengers ought to be applied to session.—The-motion was then agreed to. affording some greater accommodation to the humbler EXPENSES OF PRINTING. classes. He hoped the Committee now about to be ap- Sir GEORGE CLERK moved that the following pointed would inquire into the whole question, and that gentlemen be a Select Committee to assist Mr. the Right Hon. Gentleman would not alone limit the Speaker in all matters which relate to the printing inquiry to railways about to be 'formed, but that, it executed by order of this House, and for the should also extend to those existing. at present, and a purpose, of selecting .and arranging for printing re greater degree of accommodation and conafort be afforded turns and 'papers .presented in pursuance of motions to the working classes. .. • • • . made by Members of this House, which may be referred Sir R. PEEL said the question.moreproperly -before to the said Committee :—Sir George Clerk, Sir Robert the House was the regulations thatsehould be, adopted in Harry. Inglis, Mr. ?usey, Mr. Vernon Smith, Mr. the cases of new railways, and hethought it important that Strutt, Viscount Mahon, •Mr. Tufnell, Mr. Patrick the •progress of legislation• - shouki net be interrupted. Stewart, and Mr. Hume Power to send for persons, Parliament had a perfect right-to attach what conditions papers, and records ; five to be the quorum. they pleased. They had a .. petfeet . right to place limi - Mr. HUME said, he had last session moved for re tattons on the profits of new - companies-they had a per- turns - of the expense of printing each document, but they feet right to exact' froM the new companies regulations had not been laid on the table of the House. He con with reference to third-claSs passengers. —(Hear, hear.) sidered there was great laxity and delay somewhere He (Sir R. Peel) was not at all unaware of the evil of connected with this subject. The expense of every monopoly—the monopoly which, he thought, Parliament document ought to be printed with the document itself. had given to ralway companies. —(Hear, hear.) Still He did not wonder, from the mode in which the business he must contend for this great principle, that there was was managed, that the expense of printing now amounted a material distinction between companies approaching to 170,000/. or 180,0001. Parliament for the first time aad asking for new powers, Sir GEORGE CLERK could assure the Hon. Gentle and the companies which, upon the faith of Parliament, man there was no wish to delay the returns he moved had invested their capital . and had established lines. for, but there was great trouble in making them out. Parliament might repent their indiscretion for having Mr. HUME thought it was as easy to make out the granted those powers, but still the powers had been cost of each book, and bring it with the book itself, as granted.—(Hear, hear.) He would not deny the corn- it was to bring penny rolls, and the price -at which they petency of Parliament to interfere, but he had advised were sold. 'the House to be cautious before they did interfere with The motion was, then agreed to, and the House ad the profits, or with the management, of railway com- journed at Seven o'Clock. ponies which had been called into existence by the au thority of Parliament. The Hon. Centleman had said that, as far as his experience in railway companies went, they always attended to their own interes. s. Why that was the life and soul of all commerce, It was that which seemed to be a selfish interest—which vilifiedcom merce, but which called into action the industry of the country. The seeming selfishness was perfectly natural, but it was that which ultimately led to the public good. But he did not deny that Parliament had a right to control those companies. But he advised the House to have a cautious regard to the great public interest. If they saw these companies were dividing 15 and 20 per cent., and they were told some years ago that those com panies only expected to divide six or seven per cent., and upon that ground they claimed a right to interfere with the profits of those companies, they were thereby laying down a principle which would be destructive of all speculation.—(Hear, hear.) They must take a comprehensive view of the subject in legislating upon it They - must consider that in these great companies not one farthing of the public money had been expended, and yet great public advantage had re sulted, and that from the application of private capital. They must not forget, too, that in many cases the ap CHILD-BIRTH IN THE Srow.—Shortly before five o'clock on Friday morning, whilst the snow was fast.falling, as a police-constable, of the P diviSion was going his' rounds, near Atarylebone workhouse, New-road ; he heard a moan proceed from one of the gardens attached to the houses op posite that establishment, and, on close inspection, found a poor woman lying in the snow, together with a living infant, of which she had just been delivered. • The constable imme diately ran to the Marylebone Infirmary, and gave informa tion to Tebutt, the porter, who lost no time in conveying it to Mrs. Walsh, the matron. Blankets and an easy chair were at once provided, and carried to the spot where the poor creature laid, and she and her offspring having been wrapped up, were at once conveyed to the work house, where, after receiving prompt medical attendance, they were placed in bed; and ;yesterday both mother and child were found to be doing well. At the time of the oc currence, the poor woman was on her way to Queen Char lotte's Lying-in Hospital, where, by the regulations, females are not admitted until the very last hour, when their ac couchement is likely to take place. DRY Hum OUR.—An Irish post-boy, having driven a gentleman a long stage during torrents of rain, the . gen tleman drily said to Paddy, " Are you not ver y wet? " Airah ! I don't care about being very w et, but pluses our honour I'm very dry.' THE LEAGUE. Sir JOHN TROLl7OPiPtesented a petition from Boston, and other places in Lincolnshire, praying that protection might be afforded to agriculture, and com plaining of what the petitioners termed the machina tions of a body of persons calling themselves the Anti- Corn-law League. PAYMENT OF POOR-LAW OFFICERS. Mr. GODSON presented a petition from Kidder minster, complaining of the high salaries given to officers of the Poor-law Commissioners, and praying that the subject might be inquired into. IRISH JURIES. Mr. Sergeant MURPHY presented a petition from the Roman Catholics of the city of Cork, in public meeting assembled, signed by the Mayor on behalf of the meeting, complaining of the exclusion of Roman Catholics from the jury list in Dublin. Mr. HUMS presented a petition (understood to be from Montrose) praying that until grievances were redressed, the 1-! ouse ould refuse to grant any supplies. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. MILNER GIBSON gave notice of a motion (on what day did not reach the gallery) for the appointment of a Committee to obtain information on the present state of the agriculture of the kingdom, the quantity of land at present under cultivation, and the amount of its produce. THE CLONTARF MEETING. Colonel RAWDON gave notice that on Thursday, the 15th inst., he should move an address to the Crown, praying her Majesty to order an inquiry into the cause of tl!e delay in the publication of the proclamation on the subject of the great Clontarf meeting. RIGHT OF SEARCH. Sir CHARLES NAPIER wished to repeat the ques tion he twice last session put to the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, as to the in structions given to the Commanders of British cruisers in reference to the American cruisers on . the African coast. He also wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet if he had received any information of the establishment of military posts by the Americans on the Oregon frontier ? Sir R. PEEL said, with respect to the first question ' the Gallant Commodore, as to the instructions issued to our cruisers on the coast of Africa, he would give the Gallant Commodore an answer to-morrow or next day. With respect to the second question, he had 'no other information than the Gallant Officer himself pos sessed. • POOR RATES (IRELAND). . Mr. FRENCH moved for a return of the dates and places where the military have been employed in Ire. land in the forcible collection of poor-rates, between the Ist of January, 1843, and the Ist of January, 1844 ; also the return of the number of .men employed.; and' also the amount of•rate uncollected. SUGAR DUTIES. Mr. PATTISON said he wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government whether it was the intention of the Government to make any alteration in the sugar duties ? Sir R. PEEL said that the fact of the Hon. Gentle man being one of the yountrest Members of the House. could alone justify him in putting such a question. THE OREGON TERRITORY. • Lord JOHN RUSSELL understood that it had been stated that negotiations had been entered into with America with respect to the Oregon Territory. He wished to ask if those negotiations were still pending, or whether there had been a cessation of them. Sir R. PEEL said, if he recollected rightly, that the British Government had originated communications with the Government of the United States as to the extreme advantage of proceeding amicably to -some arrangement for settling the mutter in dispute ; certainly the answer received to that communication justified them in hoping that by this time some progress towards an arrangement would have been made. All he could state now was, that the British Minister who had gone out, had very full instructions on that subject, _ _ _ _ Mr. HUME asked if the Right Hon. Baronet had any objections to lay on the table of the House the papers relative to that subject ? Sir R. PEEL said, that as these papers related to a matter of so much importance, he thought the Hon. Gentleman would take the wisest course in not pressing for their production. After a few words from Mr. HUME, Lord STANLEY said that if . the Hon. Gentleman waited, it was possible more precise information could be given. DISTURBANCES IN WALES. Dr. BOWRING wished to know from the Right Hon. Gent!eman the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment, whether it was his intention to lay the Report of the Commissioners who were sent to Wales on the table of the House. Sir J. GRAHAM was understood to say that he had not yet received the Report. As soon as he had re ceivecl it it would be laid before the House. MEDICAL CHARTERS. • In answer to a question from Mr. MACAULAY on the subject of medical charters, Sir J. GRAHAM said that he had no objection to lay on the table of the House the charters of the College of Surgeons of London and Dublin. He had also two Bills nearly ready which he would lay upon the table'of the House, with regard to the medical practice of the country. POST-OFFICE. Mr. HAWES wished to know from the Right Hon Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether i was his intention to renew the Committee on the subject of the Post-office; also whether a paragraph which he had seen in the papers, and which stated that the whole of the revenue derived from the Post-Office was to be applied to carry out certain improvements in that department, was correct? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he did not see any necessity for moving for a renewal of the Post-Office Committee. With respect to the returns alluded to, he had no ob jection to lay them, as far as it was possible, upon the table of the House, But there were several letters from the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, many of which were in the form of private communications, and it would therefore be exceedingly difficult to make such a general return as that sought by the Honourable Gentleman. With respect to the Post-office returns there would be no difficulty. With respect to the question relative to a certain para graph which appeared in the newspapers, he would say that there was not the slightest authority for supposing that it emanated from either him or the Government. Mr. WALLACE wished to ask the Right Hon. Ba ronet, the First Lord of the Treasury, whether the, fi nancial and commercial statement would be brought for ward at an early period of the session, or whether it would be postponed.. Sir R. PEEL said the estimates should be brought forward as soon as the returns were completed for the Airil quarter. Tim QUEEN'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS. Lord JERMYN (as Treasurer of the Household) ap peared at thelar in the Windsor uniform. and bearing a white wand. The messenger in attendance announced -Her Majesty's answer to the address." His Lordship said—l am commanded by her Majesty to inform the House,thatonSaturdaylast she received the address ofyour Hon. House, which her Majesty was graciously pleased to ' receive and to give the following answer :—" thank you for your loyal and dutiful address ; your de claration that you are anxious to co-operate with me in my earnest endeavour to promote the welfare of my people is most satisfactory. You may be assured that it will be the invariable object and constant care of my life to promote the happiness and preserve the confidence of my people." ALLEGED DEFICIENCY OF THE CIVIL LIST. Mr. BLEWITT said that a report was prevalent that a considerable deficiency. of the civil list had occurred, which would require an application to Parliament for the grant of a loan. He wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet whether there was any foundation for that rumour ? Sir R. PEEL was sorry that any One could be so credulous as to believe any such rumoun—(Hear, hear.) He was surprised that any Member of the House could give a moment's credence to it.--(Cheers.) He thought that the habits and personal character of her Maj, sty were too well known to render it possible for any one to think that any deficiency in the Civil List could have occurred.—(Cheers.) REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD rose, and, as we un derstood, addressed a question to the Speaker on the subject of the motion of which he had given notice, viz., the redress of grievances. The SPEAKER said that he had understood the Hon. Member to ask when he could bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, on the subject of the redress of grievances. He apprehended that the proper time for the Hon. Member to bring the subject before the House would be to-morrow, when the Order of the Day would be read for the House resolving itself into a Committee of the whole House, for the purpose of granting a supply to her Majesty. IM4 IA I p ROUSE OF LORDS, Feb: 5. „Their L or d s hi ps assem b le d at Fi ve o 'cl oc k. 41-hat MAJESTY'S. ANSWER TO TUB ADDRESS. T he L 011,1) CHANCELLOR communicated to the noose her.A.faiesty's answer to the address presented by the House on Saturday. The answer was as follows: :xf,Y Lords, I thank you for your loyal and dutiful 'ress. The fir s t -object of my wishes is to promote the welfare of my people, and I rely with confidence on Your assurance of support in framing such measures as 11 e i nterest of the countrymay require?' 9n the motion of she Earl of SRAFTESBURY, her -41.esty s most gracious answer was ordered to be en tered on the Journals of the House. T T ," al - S - 15FST. ASAPII AND BANGOR. T he Earr of POWIS presented four petitions tgainst the unions of the two Sees of St. Asaph and ror. Th e N o bl e E ar l sa id h e s h ou ld, on a n early trY brillg the subject under the consideration of the -40u56.. SLAVERY. Majesty's BROUGHAM w i s h e d to pu t a q uestion to her Government. A great deal of anxiety and %ne w ness had been excited amongst persons who wished or t he - abolition of the slave trade, in consequence of ik)ttiree report respecting negotiations that were at present , o in g Place with respect to the treaties of 1831 and 1833 ' w eep England and France on the subject of the right did Pendingany negotiations, he (Lord B.) certainly i e ,not wish to press for any information that it might ', n eonvenient to the public service that the Noble Earl s h ot , • , nu give. Perhaps, however, his Noble Friend 4 1 , 6 " t be able to say a few words that might answer the th r Poee he (Lord Brougham) had in view by allaying con e a nxiety, the great anxiety, which prevailed in the 1 1 , 1t 7 upon this subject. The Earl of ABERDEEN said he should have been thtd if -- he had been in a position to give to his Noble ( 1 4 ,: 4, earned Friend the fullest information he might 1) ;Lre• The subject was undoubtedly of a very weighty l am but f rom the part taken by his Noble and a llied Friend on this subject for so many years, it tos s natural h e s h ou ld s h ow g reat interest in reference to Govern ment it. It wa s p er f ec tly true that the French h , ad expressed a desire that such mod ifications the introduced into the treaties which e stablished l ight of search, as without impairing their efficiency t i ght render them more conformable to the feelings of " Preach people. It was not for him (Lord A.) to say and Learned wonld be the result of such propositions, but his Hon. th;Learned Friend, and the House might rest assured i t 4 nothing should be done that in any degree might Pair the means of suppression of the abominable traffio 11 11 . 314 " S• He could assure the House that the French M inistry was as desirous of the total aholition of the slav e :s trad e as h e (Lord Aberdeen) was, and this would t e , l tePt in view by them in any propositions they might he to us. With respect to the right of search itself, „ e had witnessed with some regret that it had been -° tneti mes referred to in a way tending to con- A the unwarranted and calumnious representa tirt, o, 3 which had been made respecting it on the othe r side of the water. It had at times been repre ,p,at:d in this country, as it had been constantly over the ri via r' that the real object of England in the ~( 4 search was to degrade and insult the tio -e " marine, and to obtain certain informa -1 n o r''speeting French ships, in order to turn it ; ) et , °wn advantage. Incredible as thi• might appear, , y aii 4'es it certain that such a notion extensively pre to NOW it was not very likely we should attempt With a degradation upon another nation that might , f or five -fold weight, be retaliated upon ourselves ; ,th certainly the right of search being mutual. e re one French cruiser might be subjected, th: English ones would be subjected also. In ports of France, so near to us, surely we could Re-t did we desire to do so, far better and fuller infor einfor- mation as to the French marine than on the distant Ab re ! Where the right of search existed. He (Lord spoejueen n ) had sometimes seen the right of search abe,t of as a great good in itself. It no doubt a e be m a d e an ava il a ble means of narrowing the l estable s l ave -t ra d e , but of, and in itself, Qwil look e d upon the right of search as a great o b i L and only to be justified by the great co;V",, t they had in view. There was nothing else that tri'l justify so great a sacrifice on the part of his coml . Be of course was not prepared to say what might to the these result of the negotiations for the modification of treaties, but he hoped the few words he had now feri,red would allay any anxiety that might have been st "Y . his Noble and. Learned Friend or other old and 4tolins.,ch friends of the abolition of slavery.—(Hear, hear.) fu BROUGHAM said he should be very unreason ablefr indeed if he were not satisfied with what had fallen It°lo the Noble Earl, and he could add that he agreed with Ito rdeut to giving the fullest credit to the Govern % of France for its hearty wishes to put down 4erodetestable traffic. There certainly was a feeling ti,, t a d in France that the mode of putting it down was di - ecaisisrent with their feeling : 4 of national honour and P it Y• His Noble Friend had given an unanswerable re to thi s b y reminding their French neighbours that we Q ua lly conced e d th e same r i g ht on our parts, and as we gawp the right of s..ardi over five or six ships for one, hot in, up more than they did ; yet we did h e the slightest .degree consider ourselves disho iatged, ~1 3Y it- He entirely- agreed with the Noble Earl a lx-ing that instead of its being a desirable arrange !), meet or a good per se, he wished that some mode could devised for repressing the slave-trade without it, as he Th e e d on it rather as an inconvenience than a burden. i n Tust always keep in mind one of two propositions le, sling with this question. One of these was, that hide,and had entirely abolished her own slave ehad done nine parts out of ten of what was own d u ty, and that, strictly speaking, it was that a lone which she could be called on to do, an y thin g be y ond t hat being in the nature of a work of sup erero g ation. God forbid that they should in the slightest degree re lax fiom their efforts to repress the slave trade, and that having washed their own hands of the stain, they should not for the sake of humanity and of Africa, seek out • other nations to do so also. One thing they must also always bear in mind, that though they were philanthropists and statesmen legislating for Africa, they were also European and English states men, and that their primary object must now be the reservation of peace among the nations of Europe. t he must not r i s k t h at fi rst an d greatest bl ess i ng f or I ne ti.ke of any work of supererogation or humanity. To do so would be the most preposterous attempt any great nation could engage in. S T It t '4 MITCHELL'S SCREW-P - 4. 7-;:-7---- - A,' '---k -- -. BATTERY. . /_-_, -:'''')--. .. ,4 ,- , , \... d Since we noticed the evidence of hi4-6ace : the„'ee? - 1 1 41;i:re:"Ye ; Duke of WELLINGTON to the urgent importance oC 4 7 : l zi '''' ) ''lii providing, not only " Harbours of Refuge " \ beteveeri :e --- M't / Portsmouth and the Downs, but also of crect*JVai c ..."%,' r:/ . --- ";• near the station s t o b e se l ec t e d f or suc h h ar t ethi,:-i' S ' forts to protect the trade of London, entering or de parting from the mouth of the Thames ; we have carefully perused Messrs. MITCHELL and SoN's " Description and Sketch of a Pa tent Screw-pile Battery and Lighthouse." Having already demonstrated that the prodigious commerce of the port of London must, in the event of a "maritime" war—(to preserve the distinction so justly enforced by the Duke in the evidence alluded to)—and the continued deficiency of such protection along the coasts,-,aof that portion, more especially—of the Channel, be always liable to ducal . culable injury from the armed steamers of any naval enemy (for this species of force can readily navigate in those shallows which, as to other craft, are among the natural defences of our shores) ; we need not further insist upon the vital policy involved in the speediest possible reparation of our long-enduring negligence. The sort of screw-pile battery and lighthouse which Messrs. MITCHELL and SON modestly but powerfully recomniend, has the invaluable advantage of being easily erected on sea banks—on banks even of loose sand, ". at a distance of many miles from this nearest coast ;"—of being inconceivably streege to resist the action of high winds, . tempestuous :sew, and the rolling swells which break outside •so many of our great estuaries ; and of being very economical in its construction. These admirable properties have been excellently tested, and we may add, triumphantly confirmed. The pamphlet before us is illustrated by two sketches—the one representing, in perspective, such a battery and lighthouse " can atructed entirely of malleable iron, and having its screw-pile foundation firmly planted on a bank beneath the sea." The other, showing au elevation view of a screw-pile battery of twenty-eight guns, with a vertical section of the bank, in which the screw-piles are fixed. Now, as to " the principle of such founda tions," it is gratifying to know that it has been " well tested both on the east and west coasts of Eng land, off the shores of which have been erected screw-pile lighthouses, that have now withstood Cie storms of several winters without exhibiting the slightest symptom of insecurity or decay."—" That the first of such foundations was fixed on the Maplin Sands" by these engineers (Messrs. MITCHELL and SoN), in the summer of 1838, by order of the Corpo ration of the Trinity House, at the recommendation of their engineer, Jemrs WALKER, Esq., F.R.S., &c. &c., " who has since erected on it the Maplin lighthouse ; and though it stands upon a bank of loose sand, many miles from the near,lst coast, and " exposed to the swell from the German Ocean, yet it is as stable and as likely to endure as if.based upon a rock."—" But the first lighthouse of this, 'Or indeed of any description, that has 'ever - been based upon a submarine sand-bank was erected entirely by Messrs. MITCHELL and SON, after their own designs, in the winter of 1839, at the entrance of the sea reach -lead ing to the town of Fleetwood-on-\Vyre. It has now been standing nearly four years, having been first lighted on the Gth of June, 1840 ; and, though the material is principally wood, a little paint is all that has been requisite to keep it in perfect condition, since its erection, though exposed on the north and west to the swell of the open sea ; the tide rising on the columns upwards of thirty feet." The stability of these screw pile structures is stated by these engineers to depend—first, on the firm hold which the broad screw takes of the ground, by being forced far beneath its surface ; secondly, on the solid part of the building being placed above the reach of the highest sea, no broad surface is opposed to the free passage of the waves, which consequently do not affect the structure. It is necessary to bear these two causes of stability in mind, when contemplating the engraved view of the battery and light house, in order to overcome the distrust which one would otherwise naturally entertain of a surhase represented only by one and forty narrow pole-like stems of iron, severally insulated, and at first sight seeming to mock the volume and the velocity of a tempestuous sea by a frame-work of such contrasted apparent fragility and inadequacy. But this inadequacy and fragility are only apparent. There can be no sort of doubt, upon the result of the most severe experiments, that the Duke of WELLINGTON'S anticipation "that places of defence can possibly be constructed on the Goodwin Sands" may be realised by the erection, on that perilous bank, of a, battery, light house, and barrack of the most enduring and substantial description, on this screw-pile foun dation. Let us take the case of the Maplin light house. Its foundation consists of " nine spiral flanches, each of 4 feet diameter, keyed on the foot of as many wrought-iron piles : these were screwed into the bank to the depth of 22 feet, and from the nature of the ground, might have been sunk to a much greater depth, had it been considered neces sary." Now Messrs. MITCHELL and SON properly enough cite the high authority of the Duke of WELLINGTON for the necessity of raising works of defence off certain points of the coast on similar principles of construction. " Disclaiming for our selves," say they, "all pretensions to military engineer ing, we venture confidently to propose a screw-pile foundation as the best means, yet known, by Which batteries could be erected on sub-marine sand-banks exposed to the storms and swell of the open sea. To render our plan more intelligible, we subjoin an ele vation view of a screw-pile battery, of 28 guns, with a vertical section of the bank in which the screw piles are fixed." From this description, and that of a model prepared by them, it appears that the proposed battery would be supported as we have described it " on 41 malleable iron piles, placed in five parallel rows, the three interior ranges consisting of nine, and the two exterior of seven piles each—the platform being oblong, having the angles cut off." This last feature, on the analogy of our round-stern men of war, strikes us as very judicious, being calculated to throw off the strength and fury of the waves. From the measurements given, it seems that the extreme length of pile from screw foundation to foot of plat form would be 71 feet—diameter of pile at surface of bank, 12 inches • at screw foundation and at platform , 10 inches; and Of the screw itself, 4 feet. This screw would be imbedded to the depth of 30 feet in the bank ; the platform would rise above the bank 41 feet, and above spring tides 22 feet. Diameter of horizontal bracing would be 8 inches, of single ditto, 4. The whole length of the platform would be 120 feet, by 60 broad; of the barrack-rooms, 90 by '3O ; the lantern to save of roof 13 feet high, by 12 broad. The engineers observe—" As compared with ships, the risk to such batteries from hostile attacks appeer trifling ; the narrow surface and rounded form of the piles and each part of the frame-work rendering it nearly ball proof ; for, unless struck in the direct lire of the centre, shot would glance off from their curved surface; and even bar or chain-shot could have nu effect on the main supports of the building, owing to their great strength and weight. We would recom mend iron alone to be used in the upper works." . . . . " The efficiency of battery guns as compared with those afloat, needs no com ment, and in working them a small garrison is ell that is required." . • • . " The whole weight of the structure, including guns and military stores, would be about 1,000 tons, or something less than twenty-five tons upon each pile ; a mere fraction of what those piles would be sufficient to supports We are of opinion that a battery and lighthouse of the proportions before described, could be completel for about 25,0001." These are important and highly interesting par ticulars, to which we have no exception to take, ex cept that they do not seem to contemplate the great exposure of both battery and barrack, in a po3ition thus advanced, as it were, into the sea, from the greet guns of first or second class men-of-war, for example. Nor do they allow, we venture to suggest, for the facility with which enemies' steam ships-of-war might run under the guns and close in to the frame supports of the battery, so as to lie there with comparative im punity, from the impossibility of the garrison bring ing its guns to bear directly down upon them; whilst their own heavy metal, and even mortars might be played at any required elevation, with terrible eff e ct on the works above them. A military friend, who issin pressed with the highest opinion of M es srs. t M a s t r s clre a and Sox's scheme and pamphlet, remallis,h we : we, battery might *easily surmount . the dangers thus hintedat,by being supplied with an effiCent furnace, metal, and materiel for heating and i throwing red hot balls ; from the effect of which . next neither steamers nor line-of-battle ships would find it very practicable to preserve themselves. We once more strongly commend the preparation of those coast defences to the earliest and most seriou. attention of Parliament. this, • )osed 3 y of dinal good wing reeklY tes, is _ jects, ,gray' is able IL. Cf) 1111. of the hi vee r ritten Mrs , wi der 5 , 0 far full- Chel ;entle- -1 lat 3 places Linong by lan ill hi here rka Ule serc spor? ,`Art` t r , the best 3 ' the t I FE, a ir e ' ter' ;o1: 13 ' ' ise IVe ', t he t ! a r o %W ell fVere ions, nr to ap cl by tra fland dis o the riage itiful 1 0' f.) a 0 irilq' ntal' i hisl6 it 0 7,1