The Sun. — London, England, 1836-06-04 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JUNE 4, i&36 Cries of " No," and Ministerial cheers.) I wish the Nobie Lord and f:e Right Hon. Baroact joy of their new ally. I will say to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and I say it 'firmly to him, that I do not think he has spoken the sentiments of his constituents, - and I, humble individual as I am, am thoroughly convinced that he has not eareed success to-flight —let him sneer as much as he pleases at me. I give Lim leave to sneer as much as be pleases—if he thought he could embody this question in his own little passions and petty re- sentments. No, .Sir, he cannot do it. I will now conic to the question that is really before us--the episode was hot of my intraduction.--( Hear.) I confess that the time is not re m to when this debate would have delighted me exceedingly. as enceureging the hape of a darling 'and-lona-cherished prospect of mine. I long did cherish the hope of a repeal of the Union, and but a short time ago the manner in which this important measure for Ireland has been discussed—the haltry, miserable, political cant, and political hypocrisy that ave marked the debate on the part of those who resist any concession, as it i.; called, to Ireland, would have delighted me as furnishing another topic to show that this Parliament is net disposed— thet there was a party its it too powerful to allow the portion of it that n ight be disposed—yes, I will use the repudiated 'word—to do ju , tice to ',eland. iam bound, however, to acknowledge that these are 110 longer my feel ings. I say candidly, that Ino longer desire an argument for repeal. I have seen too much of the English people.—( Cries of "Oh I" from the Opposition, and cheers. ) I have seen the chief magistrate of the first city in the world at that bar, and I have heard him speakieg is the language of freemen, that which you cannot conceal from yourselves, anti which I tell you ultimately you dare not resist. I, with the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will " blot out the Channel, and proclaim myself a West Briton."—( Cheers.) I have spoken with the sentiment which I entertain, with un affected disgust of what I have heard in this deb he; but I have been consoled ; I have heard the speech, which struck ' me with great admiration, of a Christian and a gentleman ; I heard that speech in which my Hon. and revered Friend (Mr. F. Buxton), and I am proud to call him my friend, asserted his own conscientious convictions, and asserted them without offence. I. wish the Hon. Baronet oppo site (Sir James Graham) would take a lesson from him. Convinced .as that Hon. Member is of the errors, he being so conscientiously convinced, he, a Protestant, appeals to, he relies upon, Protestant truth and upon Protestant jus tice that neither shall be tarnished by Protestant persecution. That speech Ido trust will meet the public eye. • I hope he wi li not leave it to any reporter, but I do conjure him, in the name of our common Christianity, to give the public the be nefit of the sentiments he uttered, and that they will go with the weight of his name before them. And is not. I ask, that name connected with—is it not to be found in--the first and brightest page in the history of humanity ?—( Hear, and loud cheers.) Agitation ! Why, if he had not agitated, where would the negro be now? And yet you taunt, you ridicule, agitation. Eight hundred thousand human beings pour blesh s i n gs upon his name for his agitation.—( Cheers.) I trust they will plead for him to the mercy of that God who will judge him. Eight hundred thousand human beings will be his advocates. Anal when he stands, as he certainly will, before the throne of God, eight hundred thousand beings will raise their voices and claim mercy for him. They will say for him, " We were naked and you clothed us, we were hungry and you fed us, we were in prison and you visited us."—( Hear,. and cheers ) He would, indeed, be a formidable Protestant against us. But who is it that is now arguing in favour of the claims of Ireland ? It is not the angry Christian— it is not the ill-tempered Christian—it is not one who when he finds a kindness intended towards Ireland endeavours to mar it—it is not one who will cast a stain upon friends—it is not one who when he finds there is another chance of doing mischief is sure to be ready to aid in it.— ( Hear.) We have heard a great deal to-night from one Hon. and Learned Member, and yet I must say this, that I never-was so much obliged as I have been to-night by the Hon. and Learned Member for Bandon.—(Laughter.) He spoke for three hours by that clock Certainly considering the kind of materials and figures of which the speech was composed, he could have spoken, I am certain, for three hours more, and I am excessively indebted to him that he has spared us that infliction. He might have been misled by the cheers ; for he had those who could applaud him in excellent style. I honour him, then, for resisting the temptation, but my gratitude can go no further.—( Laughter.) There was a horrible practice in Ireland of packing juries. He himself has called it "nominating the juries." In criminal case, the Counsel for the Crown nominated the juries ! Ac cording to the old English law, passed iii the reign of Edward, the power of challenging juries was taken from the Crown. But my Lords, the judges, who have always ruled that the statute shall not prevail against the Crown in it; operation, took care that the same thing as challenging a juror should continue, by leaving to the Crown the power of " setting by jurors." In England the practice is almost unknown. An English counsel does not understand it; but it prevails to such an extent in Ireland that I have seen fifty-two gentlemen bid to "stani by" by the Crown in the case of a murder, which had nothing to do with politics. Eighteen of these were magistrates, and yet they were all set aside because they - were staspected of being impartial.—( Hear.) I could men tion cases of the most frightful enormity upon this point. I certainly never thought I should hear an Irish Member stand up and arraign the Attorney-General for Ireland for having for the first tune ietroduced the English practice of impartiality and scorning. to select juries. —("Hear, and cheers.) But there is another passage in that Hon. and Learned Member's speech to which I must advert. Will it be believed that this packing- Protestant of Ireland—that this Kildare-place (I will not give him any other name) hero, has not only arraigned the Go vernment of Ireland, but he has expressed his horror of them. Why.? Because they would not involve Ireland - in civil war— because they would not stain her with blood to maintain tithes —( Hear.) For twenty long minutes he railed at the Govern ment because they did not do that which lie thought they ought to do—shed blood for tithes.—( Hear, hear.) Here, then, are your odious—(The remainder of the sentence was lost in loud groans from the Opposition Members, followed by cheers from the Ministerial Members.) Oh ! that I had an enemy ! Assuredly I should wish him to act as that Hon. and Learned Member has acted.—( Cheers and groans.) There is only another Irish Member to whom it is necessary to advert —that is the Representative for the Ueivershy ; but then he is so good-humoured, that I really do not like to say anything which may disturb tint good humour. The only thing that amused me was his banhommie, as the French call it, in de signating the Established Church in Ireland, the Irish Church —it the Church not Irish. That is the distinction. He must go back to the University. if it were only to correct the Dic tionary, by putting that which is said to be " Irish" as " Nat Irish."—( Hear and laughter.) But then we have heard a good deal from the Hon. Baronet •the Member for Cumber land. Ile says that Ireland has got too much justice. He has ridiculed the idea of justice for Ireland. Why, is Irelend so fallen that any man will presume to ridicule her appeal for justice?—(Hear and cheers.) Are we so degraded that any man can imagine he can with impunity taunt us, because we ask for justice ?—( Hear) The real question here is, not the shifting of' the statesmen who are one day on this side of the House, and are not here to-mer;ow ; it is not whether Lords or Baronets are now in the drag-cbain, or rather in " the tail," or Toryism.—( Laughter.) The Dilly is swallowed up or swamped, its followers of thirty-six are gone away, while the masters of the band are jailers on the side of - Toryism. _( Laughter.) If we look to this question. and its real hearings—if we do so as statesmen, and not do so as par tisans—if we allow common sense and justice tkprevail, and leave aside that piety which asserts only individual superiority. and which is somewhat like what an Hoe. Baronet - has called " the filthy aristocracy of the American steam-boat ;" if we leave aside that filthy aristocracy which is now assumed in religion, we can come to decide this question—to decide it as t w esmen . Cries of " Oh, oh !" frinn Opposition Members. ) But first you must understand it—(Cheers froth Ministerial Members.) That certainly ought to he sonic ingredient iii the consideration of a question, that you understand it—and how let inc see if I can make you understand it.—( Cheers.) The task is. I ain aware, a difficult one, yet I do not despair. —(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The agitation of the Tithe question has been attributed to me. I have not that honour. It began before 1 was born. It was visited by penal acts.of Parliament so long back as 17G3. There has been a legal onachaonism on this point by ,the Han. Member for 'Bandon; an - 1 lie is deservedly the representative of Bandin. a Why-even in my own time there was written upon the gates of Bandon— Ilere enter Turk, Jew, or Atheist, " Anything but a Papist." (Laughter.) And underneath these lines was at one time in scribed— _ \Vheever wrote the above wrote it well. " For the same is written on the gates of hell." (Loud laughter.) Let me see, then, it' I can make you un derstand it. lt was in 1763 that the first offences agairm the' collection of tithes were legally noticed. The Hen. Member for Cambridge has shown himself exceedingly ignorant of the Christian religion, at least of its temporalities. The Hon. 'Member for Oxford, I should have said—l beg his pardon. The ignorance of that Hon. Member proves the truth of the rdage, " the nearer the church, the farther from tha altar." He lives close to learning, and it pa , ses unheeded by him. In Ireland, the great body of the tithes, the enormous territorial possessions, were all the donations, the pious donations, of the Catholics.—( Hear.) For years before the English went to Ireland, there were the Pope's legates here—they . were in the four archbishoprics of Ireland with legatine power' The tithe system Wa3 not in Ireland until the reign of Henry 11. It was the English Ca tholic priests who imported them. 1173 is the date at which they commenced. A synod at Cashel announced to the faith ful that it behoved them to give tithes to the Church. The responded to that cry; they bestowed those tithes, and so they continued until the 28th of Henry Vlll—until 1537. Three hundred years ago, for the first time,ein Act of Parliament transferred those tithes to the Protestents—to that species of Protestantism that Henry VIII. avowed It was the Christian Prince who bestowed thoso,tithes. that attempted to convince the Irish, by nicking it capitd l f elon y to deny his supremacy. Your title is the law—an excellent title, cer tainly but if there be not that title, then there has beau spo liation ; for those tithes were riven for the saying of mass, for the invocation of saints, for the prayers for the dead. The saints you disregard, except it be, indeed, the living saints. —( Laughter.) You pray not for the dead, but - yiga extrse the living ; you have suppressed the mass, and von declare it te i be impious and dolatrons ; but you !Java talte - n the tithes, and • you keep the glebe lands ; and yet you come out upon me and say, thi.:k tithes are not the ereatures of the law. The law has g►ven it. If iebe not the creature of the law, then I really come to the proposition of the Honourable !Umber for Southwark, and I say—give me back the tithes ! I affirm that the title to the tithes is a good one, because It is legal,— (Hear.) I affirm that title to be legal; but I then draw the inevitable consequence, that being the creature of the law, it is subject to its enactments.—(Cheers.) Hence the tithe Ives-. In MO, fifteen years before I was born, that -war had begun. Parliament enacted the severest laws. Bloody -tatute after bloody statute was passed. Seventy-four capital :*elonies, on account of tithes, were added to the criminal code. There were, too, 140 transportable felonies, on ac eount of tithes. There was a lu:1 and a cessation for a time. Now the law, by its severity, created a new kind of tranquil lity; but the cancer continued—the evil was untnitig,ted— an'a it was certain to break out with increased viru ence in short time. You went on with your enactments, and your tri hunals enforced them. The gaol was drowded with prisoners; the vessel was laden with transports, the scaff Ad bent beneath its victi.ns ; there remained not the memory .of those who fell in the deadly strngt,7le, except the green grass that waved over their grav-s.—( Cheers.) . A!1 then went otiis your own way. You had coiviction3 enough ; you had with von the -7:eeutioner, the sheriff, the constable, the gaoler, awl t'.e judge ; and of these, the latter was the more harsh. Thus you have been going on for sixty years. The contest lets so long eontiaued, and every hour it does so makes it worse. The people did not at first fight against you. Carrickshock was then unknown to them ; but such as Mooncoio, Rath cormac, and Liscarra, which are now familiar to us, because they are so recent, have occurred a hundred and a thouiaad times, and stained the soil . of Ireland with the blood of her People —( Hear, hear.) The battle still continues ; bot there is a lull now—a cessation. Why ? Because the people have a government and a governor, Lord Mulgrave, who is disposed to do them justice.—(Cheers.) What! have we not hail clergymen enough quite ready, in the name of the Lord, to go to war for tithes? Have we not Wad attorneys, too, to aid them ? Have ire not had swearing bailiffs in abundance ; and, blessings on him, have we not a Chief Baron, who has in vented a writ of rebellion—who has found it, where it was sleeping—for it waa dead.,--and awoke it into life and activity on account of. tithes ?—( Hear.) There has not been much blood shed of late ; but it was hopd for. But will aay man tell me that next winter can pass over in peace, if you ao not do something ? I put it, then, to English Members, who. may vote against this Hear, from the Opposition Mem bers.) Indeed, some of them have voted both ways.— (Laughter.) These are the persons who belong to every party, as it suits their purpose.—( Hear.) No man has abetter right to say than I have, that ,there are gentlemen amongst our adversaries. I boast of it. I conjure you by your pity, I beseech you by your love of humanity, I adjure you in the name of the. living God, to prevent the shedding. of blood.— (Cries of " Oh, oh," and groans from the Opposition Mem bers.) I have heard some people call the Irish savages ; but never yet amongst savages were taunt and ridicule adopted, were men called on not to shed blood. Am Ito be blamed when I adjure you to prevent the shedding of blood ?—( Con tinued groans, and cries of " Oh, oh," from the Opposition Members.) Men of blood, as you are, then call for blood.— (Cries of " Order," from the Opposition Members, followed by cheers from the Ministerial side of the House.) Sir S. CANNING rose to order. He protested against the use of such language to those who sat on that side of the House. The SPEAKER considered that if the [lon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny meant to apply the term "men of blood" to those who had interrupted him, he had certainly used a disorderly expression. Mr. O'CONNELL-I stand corrected, as far as my ex pressiun may be used in that sense, and I shall not use it again ; but if those were men whom I conjured—deliberately conjured, to stop the effusion of blood, and I found any man capable of meeting with a taunt that most humane proposi tion—a proposition that would, I think, be listened to were we on the very verge of the Seraglio ; if, out of this House, I met men who could meet such a call upon them with a taunt, I shbuld have no hesitation in designating them as men of blood.--( Hear, hear, and cheers.) I am not surprised that the same party who have inflicted so much misery upon Ire land, who have been the shedders of so much blood there, should not now in the last scene only regret this, that they could not possibly accomplish the shedding of more blood.— (Hear.) It is not a dream, like that of the Hon. Member's for Southwark, but a practical plan that is required, to put an end to those calamities. Look around you and see the situa tion in which the country is placed ? Is there a man that will tell me that he will not agree with me in saying, that some thing ought to be done for the pacification of Ireland ? ( Hear, hear.) While in this situation, let us see what are the plans proposed ? There are five schemes on this subject. The first of these is a favourite of mine. I shall be quite candid on the subject. I should like to have an absolute extinction of the tithes—call it extirpation if you will. But if you have the courage, if you were in the situation to do it, and the public mind were prepared for it, I should wish you to make a present to the land of the tithes, and to the manufacturing and commercial interests of the corn laws ; and let the clergy men be paid out of the Treasury. Thus you would put an end to the contest. Ido not expect you to do this. I have not, upon this subject, the ardent expectations of the Hon. Member for Southwark. My opinion is, that the first thing you have to do fur Ireland is to make conscience perfectly free, and this by not calling upon one man to pay for the cler gyman of another. I arn'for the voluntary principle. I re peat it, in order that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) may have full time to take a note of it—l am for the voluntary principle. He says that I- must be favourable to a Church Establishment : I deny it. The last state that has fought its way to liberty is one in which there is a Catholic population. I ask him, then, what Church establishment thereis in Belgium? What Church establishment is there in France, unless the payment of all clergymen by the State be called an establish ment? What Church establishment is there in Hungary? But 1 come back to the last and best example : What Church establishment is there in Catholic Belgium--(Hear)? I deny it ; I utterly repudiate its necessity. Let him tell me then of my religion. I answer, I know it better than him.—( Hear, and cheers.) I am, however, of opinion that there was a period in history when Church Establishments were useful. When the Church was not under the State, but above the State. It was then the refuge of democracy, the shield of alio people. That period is long since gone by. My conscientious conviction is that a Church Establishment is no longer necessary. The next principle is this : I now put this to you, and I hope the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) will condescend to take a note of it. I say that upon your own principle you ought to give an establishment to the seven-eights of the people—to the Catholics of Ireland. If we had a union such as it ought, to-be that should be your duty. In Scotland, you en deavoured to force upon them yeti:. own Establishment. You tried it there, and for one hundred years there was the greatest turbulence, war, and crime. Scotland was your Ireland at that period.—( Ilear, and cheers.) Scotland determined upon resisting you—her people took to the mountains—they drew their broad claymores—they gathered on the hills ; they en countered you at the bridges, they stopped you at the rivers; they stained the stones with your blood and their own—you often conquered ; but they never abandoned the strife, until they secured for themselves not merely liberty of conscience, but an Establishment.—( Hear, and cheers.) And now I ask you, why is not Ireland to he treated in the same way? The people of Ireland repudiate an Establishment;—( H e ar,) .—and, as a Catholic, as sincere in my belief, as my respected Friend is in his, tell you, with as much solemnity; as without profaneness one can speak for himself, I absolutely repudiate an Establishment for my religion, because I know that itwould lose its expansive power within the trammels of the State. For my religion I wish to employ ar,gument,*and I wish it not to be stifled in the pride of an Establishment. I therefore re pudiate it—l leave to you your Establishment, I require it not But if it be:so left to you, what ought your Establishment to be? You have rectors and curates in every parish in 'lreland*. Why is there to be this enormous staff for only 800,000? Does not this alone sufficiently demonstrate that there is a surplus Hear, hear.) What arc you quarrelling with us for, if there is no surplus ? Ii you ask us what we are asserting ?—I answer, a principle !—(Loud cheera.) Ours is the conciliatory principle : yours, the repulsive prin ciple. Is it the Catholic Church—is it the Catholic religion that wants the surplus ? No. It is wanted for instruction. I agree with the [lon. Member for Southwark, that the people of Ireland will not believe that tithes arc at end by calling them rent charge. If you will insist upon forcing the Pro testant religion in Ireland, it is right you should pay fur it ; and the Protestant Clergyman would not have been at all dissatisfied at the arrangement because the money came from the Consolidated Fund; he would have taken his 771. 103. and pocketed the affront, even though he had the trouble of going to the Treasury for it.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) But that Bill was throwh out, the collision was commenced, not by us, and let the shock fill on their shoulders who pro voked it.--( Hear, hear.) The House of Lords threw out that Bill. Pinions may suppose perhaps that they threw it out because it contained a appropriation clause ; but the case was not so, that Bid contained no appropriation clause at all. But the history of their absurdity is not yet comolete. Could any human imagination conceive anything more ridiculous, more arbitrarily absurd, than this proceeding on the part of the House of Lords ?, My Bill .-rave the Pro testant clergy 771. 10s. per cent. I call it my 'Bill for short ness : calumny attributed it to toe at the time, and I certainly had a hand in it ; and this Bill, which gave the Protestant elergyman 771. 103. per cent., was iejeeted by the Lords. Well, whet took plece afterwards ? Next session the Bill of the Government of the Right Hon, Member for Tarnworth came before the house, 'said this Bill proposed to give the Protestant clergyman only 74/. per cent., underbidding me, the Popish agitator, by 2/. 103.—( Hear, hear.) The example being thus set by the Right lion. Baronet, was fol lowed by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, when he cams into office. He proposed :9 take off 21. 103. more, being 72/ 103. fur the clergyman, and so the pill went up to the Lords. 'What did the House of Lords do with it? The House of Lords, who refused my Bill which gave 771. 10A. to the clergyman, accepted as muct of the Noble Lord's Bill at gave him %/. 10e, and struck out the appropriation clauses of the Bill, which than was lost altogether. What has been the consequence of this? There has been another Dutch biddiege4 A laugh), —and the clergyman% Aare is to be re duced to On. per cent. —( Hear, hear.) The Nobi Loral op posite opposes the Bill of the Government, and what is his Abjection and what his object? lie wants to obtain, not piety and Laowledge, but gentility for his cievgyFgen; be must have nothing het gentlemen, and of course in his estimq.43 he has calculated the expensee of the dancing master.—(Laugh ter.) Oh I Sir, is it not too had WO Ireland should be sub jeet ip tbis protracted cruelty, this ingenious terturing, ema nating from il;pse who pretend to be her guardians.l There sits the doctor (pointieg to the Opposition bench on which sat Lord Stanley)—there lie site,look at him—he has pre pay&ej A dose for Ireland—she must swallow it—it may not do t er much grAd peFhaps—true, she may die u nd er t h e io N o „. „I:,t is the NoiAe 1 1 %14 plan .4et es go over his plan, He proposes to :lye the elargirroin D per e n rt g l!' but lowailOvii it Ole must.—( L ou d l aug h ter and he ) cent. of their tit h e s, t hu s a t t he outset , by the live, underbid ding me by 2/. 103. But I put it to the House and the goe4 sense of the people of England, whether that is net too much ? I put it to there whether Q,400,000 meu shall be spade to pay for the religion of 700,000?-4 Hear.) is it fair that the aeri e, _ cultural industry of the whole nation should be oppressed for the advantage of a few? There are those who lAve 1 ienee who are dote: mined to melee use of it to preserve in ieir p'aees the present Ministers, who have honestly under. !.Ikea the cause of Ireland, and to defend them from the ii,si limes attacks of those who seek to displace them.—( Cheers. ) What will you do then ? You may make war on Ireland ; brit I tell you this, Ireland will not make war on you in return,— ind further, I tell you this, that if you do wage war on Ireland, you will net have the, people of England to back you —( Loud cheering.) What is more, you will have the people of England, almost to a man, against you.---( Continued cheering.) The fact is this—there have been normal schools of political knowledge est iblisised throughout the country, and in all the cities ind t )wns of the kingdom. I have been to visit them ; I have shaken hands with the pupils, who crowded round me as if I were a beast in the Zoological Gardens.—( A laugh.) You 'augh ; but they are there acquiring knowledge, which will :each them to laugh at your absurdities, and to esteem you as you deserve. The spirit of science and of knowledge is gone abroad amongst the people of England, and the conse pence is that the " No Popery" cry of their predecessors has (1.% indict] away into a soft wailing from the mountains of Cumberland.—( A laugh.) The Hon. Member foe Brad ford, with all his piety and purity, will doubtless be astounded to learn that the Corporation of Bristol, the Tory Corporation of Bristol, have sent up a petition for the emancipation of the Jews.—( Hear.) I have now, I think, said enough to impress upon the House my feelings on this subject ; I have peeved cut my whole soul before you, and in the warmest language of my heart I have intreated you to do justice to freland.-- , ( Cheers. ) I call upon you now to do it, if you be statesmen, and not erne pyrics, if vou be Christians with Christian charity in your bosoms, and not mere. sectarians and pretenders to religion ; if you believe in that retribution with which honest men ever visit those who have been guided in their actions by the mere trick of party spirit—or if, above all, you believe in that more awful retribution which shall be visited upon you by that omnipotent Bellies who must some day hence judge the motives and the secret intentions of us all. (The Hon. and Learned Gentle man sat down amidst loud cheering, and then immediately rose to quit the House.) Sir R. PEEL rose, and before the cheering had subsided, said, " I hope the Hon. and Learned Gentlernan is not about to leave his place ?" (Mr. O'Connell who had now reached the bar, bowed, and left the House. Loud and ion-protracted cheering from the Opposition benches followed upon this oc eurrence.) The Hon. Baronet then proceeded to the follow ing effect :—lt was certainly much more agreeable to one ris ing as he did after the Hon. anti Learned Member to put for ward what few observations he had to make in the absence rather than under the eye of so distinguished an individual ; but as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had in the course of his speech expressed his solicitude that he (Sir R. Peel) should take down a note of what he had said upon a particular point, and challenged him to answer it, he thought he could charge the Hon. and Learned Member in this very first act after closing his speech with an attempt to deprive him (Sir R. Peel) of an opportunity of acquitting himself of the task set him. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had com menced his speech by passing a warm eulogium on a speech delivered the other evening by the Hon. Member fbr Wey mouth. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, moreover, ad vised the Hon. Member for Weymouth not to trust his speech to the reporters, but to publish it himself, and now, for the pur pose of adding the force of contrast to what he had said, was the Hon. and Learned Gentleman gone out to report his own speech.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) [Mr. O'Connell, how ever, re-entered the House soon after this, and resumed his seat.] ut to come to the question before the House. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (continued the Right Hon. Baronet) was exceedingly severe upon the Hon. Gentleman beside me, whom it is no part of my duty to defend.--( Laugh ter.) It is no part of my duty to defend him, because I think the Hon. Gentleman in the speech which be made attacked the Bill of the Noble Lord near me as much as he did that of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman..—(A laugh.) The Hon. and Learned Member accused the Hon. Member for South wark of entertaining extraordinary notions with respect to the contemplated appropriation of tithes touching the public uti lity. Now, in his opinion, the notions of the Hon. and Learned Member himself were about as extravagant as those of the Hon. Member for Southwark.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman proposes by his Bill to return the tithes to the land, to give the corn-laws to commerce, and to pay the clergy out of the consolidated fund. Why really that was as wild and extravagant a scheme as any uttered by the Hon. Member for Southwark. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said this would settle the tithe question —( An observation of dissent from a Member of the Ministerial benches.) Not effect a settlement of tithes ! Then why seek our acquiescence in it now ? What were the arguments by by which it was recommended to the House ?—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) The Hon. and Learned Member called upon the House to effect the settlement of this ques tion ; and asked—" Do you wish to put an end to the scenes of bloodshed which are now every day occurring in Ireland ?" His (Sir R. Peel's) answer was, 44 We do ; " but what hope had they of succeeding by accepting this arrangement, after the comments made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman Alison this very measure ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Bill pro posed to devote 368,0001. to the payment of the paro chial clergy in annual payments, which payments must be made in the nature of a rent charge, to be paid in the first in stance by the landlord, but afterwards to be obtained by him from the occupying tenant. The Bill made the Protestant Church a national Establishment ; but the Hon. and Learned Member in commenting upon it, had said that there ought to be no establishment of the kind.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman called the Protestant party dealers in. blood, and had detailed, as was his wont, a variety of scenes of rapine which had occurred in Ireland of late years—the widow and her orphan, and others of a like kind, and with these horrible details lie worked upon the feelings and the passions of all who heard or read his speech. He would 'ask the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, further, whether in case the payment of that rent charge should be opposed he would be prepared to enforce the late? Would he call out the mili tary, if necessary, to carry it into effect ?—( Hear, hear)—and if he would do so, then he, the I - lon. and Learned Member himself would be responsible for the sufferings which would emu-. for the cries of the orphan and the widow.—( Hear.) In short, if the Hon. and Learned Member had succeeded in showing that the tithe receiver in justice should he deprived altogether of his right, what, he would ask, became of the rent-charge ? Last year the Honourable Member most par ticularly stated that he would insist upon ample precau tions being taken to favour the increase of Protestant concre tions and to provide for the adequate church accommodation ; and now he declared that he should withdraw his support from the Bill, unless an immediate inquiry were instituted into the state of education in Ireland. Now, if the Hon. Gentleman held himself prepared to withdraw his support from the Bill, unless his demand for this inquiry were conceded, what would lie do if the inquiry were granted, and turned turned out to be unsatisfactory.—( Hear, hear.) The lion. Member then went on to argue the principle of appropriation. lie said, " If you contend that there is no surplus, why object to the disposal of that which you argue does not exist." He (Sir Robert Peel) would reply 0 3 the lion. Member, that to dis cuss hypothetical principles as to the disposal of any particular species of property, under such and such cases, was dangerous to the stability of all property.—( Hear, hear.) This was the third June, by the bye ; and up to this period no g reat pro.. stress bad been made by the House in any practical matters of importance. The clap-traps of last session were now held up to scorn, and so perfectly satisfied were the Government with the present state of affairs throughout the country, that they were content to hold up as a panacea for all pos sible evils, a certain contingency for the use of the future.— (Cheers and a laugh.) If there was no surplus to deal with, he had to accuse the Government of practising a gross delusion upon the people of Ireland. The speech of the Noble Home Secretary was important as unfolding the ge neral views of the Government, and the principles they were disposed to adhere to In regard to this question ' • that of the Noble Secretary fir Ireland on account of the details, or, as the Noble Lord himself, with his usual jocularity, had styled it " the dose of calculation," which it set forth ; and that of the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary, as coming from the representative of a considerable Irish constituency. The Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland said, that although the principle upon which he relied in bringing forward his Bill was so important, that he was almost inclined to disregard calcu lations upon the subject. "yet he found his principles of phi losophy so confirmed by his figures, that, fortified by his philo sophy and his figures, be was determined to etated his ground and the Noble Lord then went on to examine the Bill by phi losophy and arithmetic,—( Hear, and a laugh.) The Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire had gone on step by step throughout his speech to show that if the clergy whichpergy otpfhaertine Irelandn:ei lt s were adequately provided for there would be no surplus. L e or i d ,un tl a me tion Se o c f ro t t h a e ry pi. f i o n r cip tl l i c e i l g 'h v e e N a (le short x sure was founded, and then having made a declaration against i said the t he CoercionN o e L 1 , 4 or 4o which in t the same a youme spirit brought oiiitii i in ae n o which and egu in the i figures as of very little importance—( Hear, end Opp os i t i on cheers)—the Noble Lord flew into a d ec l amat i on on the course which he stated we w e r e a b ou t t o ta k e . " O n the same acquiesced o un e d s s c , e " d n you resisted corporate reform, and -in whi c h • y ou have misgo vernedToon appropriate thesame a groundsc n salrmee spirit landfor),s.oeuvennoewenrteurruieses surplus, and I cannot condescend to argue the question when placed in this its true light."—( Hear, hear,) Such was the declaration of the Noble Lord. But was the principle a new one on which this measure professed to be f oun d e d ? IJO ' thought until the Noble Lord hld spoken that th e pr i nc i ple at of the alop s te( o i bytl his Majesty s Government was t h at the first claim n time revenues of the Church was for the p urposes of the Church. H I , I thought," said the Right Hon. Gen-' tleman; " that on that view t he c l a i ms of time R o man necessarily fact yhe excluded not only " here, Catholic bait j, population c oo v c w r e n r in e untilexist -(ear, and Op pos i t i on mice of a surplus was asc e rta i ne d. PlleerS.) "But," said the Noble Lorcl, " yot4 talk of 200/, per annum for the Protestent clergyman, and fen supplying the spiritual- wants of Protestants ; but you omit from yoUr calcu lation the 6,500,000 Roman Catholics I you consider them as aliens in blood—es subjects of a hewer class than yourselves I you totally forget their elaims on the Church reveselee,n Sir, for myself', I disclaim entertaining any such view with respect to my Roman Catholic follosvecountrymon. I have always said thig 4nd I repeat it, that civil disabilities having been re moved, I admit no plell distinetions between any of the classes of his Majesty's subjects,--(Ghee".) They stand in that re spect upon a perfect equality. But if I admit that the • first claim on the revenue of the Established Church is the spill tUal wants of the Church ? have a right to exclude th e c l a i ms even ef .. tbe 4,599,6013,( . mi1n pathql!q•-4, 2 fllPPition cheers) only aeobt the l g itiMacy qt their claiQ un ti l htp claims of the Ghtricfs of Mnfflan4' in relequ are satitfied._ ( Cheers.) I only say don't sattsi'y thole Ouiini;frey et source. Iq 1533, the Noble Lord ( Stan le y' s) scheme fo r Church Ite form was pecpoied, It was that scheme by which extensive arid'imP i ortant reforms were effected. The Noble Lord (Stan ley) who WO 11:4 eeciettry for frolp.ad i is now considered as - - . entertaining extreme opinions on the subject of the Irish Church, and on the inalienable nature of the revenues of that Church. But was that Bill proposed by the Noble Lord ? No, but by Lord Althorp, who, as if to give more emphatic proof of the fact that it was not the Bill of an individual, but the measure of Government—(hear, hear, from Lord Stanley) distinctly declared in proposing it, that " it had been agreed that this measure should be brought forward as measure of the Government ; and it hal been thought best on the present occasion, as on former occasions, by a person who filled the situation in the- House that he filled, rather than the particular Minister with whose department in the Government of Ireland the measure was more especially connected."—(Opposition cheers.) The Noble Lord is the course of that speech having explained the details of the measure, continued—However great the differences of opinion may be as to the right of Par liament to apply the property of the Church to the purposes of the State, both those who think it has no right to transfer it, and those who think that it has, all are agreed, I think, in this, that the first claim on the property of the Church is the Church itself.—(Loul Opposition cheers.) These were the opinions adopted by the Government of 1833, and ex plained by Lord Althorp. It may be the duty of the State to take measures for the general instruction of the people ; it may be the duty of the Legislature to provide the means of moral instruction in a country circumstanced as Ireland is ; it may be proper to provide some mode of supplying instruction on a national principle, precluding the prevalence of any spe cial religious doctrines from such a system ; but if an este •blishmeat is kept up at all, it should be for the purpose of maintaining the doctrines which it was established to enforce. What are these doctrines ? The doctrines of - Protestantism, as opposed to the creed of the Church of Rome.—( Opposi tion cheers.) Is not the Protestant religion introduced by law into Ireland ?—( Cheers.) Is not the King sworn to main tain the Protestant religion in Ireland ?—( Loud Opposition cheers.) Does not the Act of Union guarantee its mainte nance? And shall Ibe told that the question of the mainte nance of the Protestant religion and Establishment in a por tion of the empire with respect to which its continuance is guaranteed by the compact of the Act of Union, should be argued in the same way as the question whether the Protes tant Clergy should be sent to Hindostan ?—(Cheers.) If there be one established religion, the inculcation of its doc trines—let the Noble Lord say what he will—is an essential condition of it—(Cheers)—and it cannot exist without it— ( Renewed cheers.) If it be not our duty to. inculcate the especial doctrine, it is our duty to abolish the Establishment. —(Cheers.) If Lord Althorp's principle be adhered to, namely, that the first claim on the Church revenues is the supply of the spiritual wants of the Protestants, we are entitled to see what is really required to satisfy those wants. If, how ever, that Noble Lot d's principle be correct, we are bound to inquire, not what may be requisite for upholding the Protes tant Church, but what may suffice for affording moral and re ligions instruction to the people. But how does the Noble Lord satisfy the conditions of his own propositions ? If it be the duty of the Legislature not to support the Establishment, but to devise means for promoting the moral and religious in struction of the people, why does he consent to postpone it ? (Hear.) If it be his duty to the people of Ireland to take from the revenues of, the Protestant Church, why does he make a boast of a plan which is to depend upon a contingent surplus, and which must take many years before it can be carried into execution ? The Right Hon. Baronet then pro ceeded to state, that he would make no allusion to the fund for the building of churches, but entreated the Noble Lord's attention to a scrutiny of his calculations. The Noble Lord proposed that 1,250 benefices should continue in Ireland. He had, with a view of consulting the feelings of the people of England, given, as an average amount of income for each clergyman, 2951. a year: Of this 2951., forty-five pounds were to be supplied by glebe and consequently 2501. would remain to be supplied by tithes: so that the total revenue which the Noble Lord, according to his plan, would re quire for the parochial clergy would be 368,338/. Deduct the glebe—for that calculation included glebe, which amounted to 56,0001.—end the sum which the Noble Lord would require for tithes would amount to 312,000/. There was an error in that calculation. He took the Noble Lord's own figures. The Noble Lord estimated ecclesiastical tithes at 511,500/. ; he thought they only amounted to 507,0001. : deducting the 321 per cent.,which would amount to 166,000/., from that sum, and there would remain 345,000/. The tax on benefices was 7,300/., which would reduce the amount of ecclesiastical tithes to 338,200/. The Noble Lord proposed to make the average amount of the clergymen's income 250/., which was a large reduction on the present sum of 450/. The curates were to be allowed 100/. ; 751. of which to be paid out Of the general fnnd,.and 25/. by the clergyman. Still though drawn from different sourcos, 100/. a year must be drawn from tithes. The fund thus created would amount to 25,000/. The amount of tithes had already been reduced to £338,000 Take from 25,000 Remainder A. X 313,000 The Noble Lord said not a word about re-opening composi tions, or the purchase of glebes, which, in his opinion, would amount to 20,0001. He had already reduced the sum to 313,0001., and if he were correct in the statement of what was to be allowed for the purposes which he had just stated, it would reduce it to 293,0001. But it was but fair that there should be added to this 10,0001. ministers' money, which, upon his own showing, would raise the sum calculated upon by the Noble Lord to 313,000/. Out of that sum 1,250 benefices were to be provided for at 250/., which would amount to 312,000/.—( Cheers.) By deductions made from the Noble Lord's own Bill he bad reduced the sum to 312,000/., and instead of there being any surplus, he had shown that upon► the tithes there would be a deficiency of lO,oool.—(Cheers.) Where, then, would the surplus be sup plied? Ile would tell them—from the sales of the Church lands.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord had estimated the ave rage extent of parishes in Ireland at ten . thousand acres, the area of an English living at 3,460 acres, or five square miles. Now, it did not at all follow as a necessary conse quence that the duties of a clergyman were in proportion to the number of its inhabitants, for a small number scattered over an extensive area would impose duties much more bur densome than a larger number over a smaller extent. In Ire land the Noble Lord computed there were 10,000 acres in a parish comprising an area of thirteen to fourteen square miles. Now he would prove that estimate to be altogether incorrect ; and if he did so, what confidence could be placed in such statements, and what became of the conclusion that the Irish clergyman was assigned a sufficient stipend for the duties which he had to perform.—( Hear, hear) There were 20,000,000 statute acres in Ireland. Divide 20,000,000 acres by 1,250, the number of the benefices, and there would remain 16,000 sta tute acres for every parish. The Noble Lord's estimate was 10,000. He had proved that there was an error of 6,000 acres in it.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord had also said, that the limit of the area was fourteen miles. But there were 640 statute acres in a mile ; and divide 16,000 by 640, and they would find that the Noble Lord made an error of about twelve square miles, when he estimated the area of the parishes in Ireland at 13 to 14 miles. The average was 25 square miles instead of 14.—( Loud Opposition cheers.) Now he asked, whether the maximum of the clergyman's stipend, 250/. a year, was sufficient compensation for the performance of such duties? He had shown that the scanty pittance could not be supplied, if they thought of holding out those expectations which could never be realized. The dioceses of Cashel and Tuam comprehended nearly one-half of Ireland. They com prehended about ten millions of acres. Now, in those two dioceses there were only eleven livings, the income of which exceeded 300/. In Cashel there were 469 benefices, in Tuam: 103, making together 572. There were 423 churches. Now, out of the 572 benefices, it would follow from the provisions of the proposed Bill that only 489 should in any case exceed 2001. a year in value. The emolument might be only 100/. This, however, he must and would say, that he had so much confidence in the Noble Lord, that he was persuaded that while that Noble Lord remained Chief Secretary for Ireland, and had the power of raising those 1001. livings to 2001. he would never fail to exercise that power.—(Cries of Hear, hear.") But be that as it might, there were in this large portion of Ireland only eleven livings the value of which was from 300/. to 400/. He well knew that in that part of Ireland the Boman Catholics greatly preponderated. in number. Still he never could consider it fair—he never could consider that it would justly consult the spiritual wants of the Protestants of that country, that. in nearly the half of Ireland so scanty a provision should be made for the clergy. _lf, indeed, it were proposed to increase the emoluments of the Prote'stant clergy in Felt - ilia out of the Consolidated Runt, it might be a question to be considered. But the Protestant clergy in Ireland were already in possession of the requisite property. To reasonable reform in the Church in Ireland, to the prohibition of sinecures, to the curtailment of pluralities, there could be no rational objection. But what was the fatal necessity which compelled the incomes of so many of the Protestant clergy to be restricted to 2001. ? Was it a ne cessity entailed by any engagements into which his Majesty's Government had entered ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Or Was it a necessity entailed by, any proof of the utility of the proceed ing ? Two hundred pounds a-year I Why, if he looked at the salaries of public Commissioners, if he looked at the salaries of the Commissioners of the poor laws—if he looked at the salaries 6f the Commissioners for consolidating the cri minal law, he found sums of 5,000/., of 10,000/. a-year. Did he say that those salaries were too large ? No. But he said there was no kind of proportion whatever between those salaries and the emoluments of the members of a profession of at least equal respectability.--( Hear, hear, hear.) The pro fessions of the Bar, the Army, and of Commerce were princely, .as compared with the profession of the Church of Ireland. Why let the emoluments of the ministers in that Church be compared with the emoluments even of the door-keepers of the House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) By the report of the Committee it appeared that Mr. Pratt, the principal door keeper, received annually 911/. I which the Comnirtitneceiprael canimended that he sh ou ld c ontinue to receive. Mr. Williams received a salary o f 5001., which also it WLI4 recom- Mewled ho should oontinne tq receive, The Committee, .however, recommended th at a fter the retirement of M r . Pratt and Mr. Williams, th e salaries of the door keepers should he only 4001, 4-your, The pi assistant to the Sergeant -at-Arms had a salary of 4151. There could be no objection tq that. Thu amount of remuneration was for the purpose of securing., far situations of trust, the services of respectable men, There were also four messen gers, who had salaries of 300/. each ; and two with salaries of 2001. each. That was to be the future establishment of that portion of the officers. Now what was it that was expected from the Ministers of the Established Church in Ireland ? Was it too much to ask that at least they should have as large an allowance allotted to them I s that P 1 149• d hX tb9 rnmen gers 11114 door -keepers Commons The Hon. and Learned MeMbei fni;TippCr.ary prophesied the hap piestmaie s z7l4 o f;o r r; ! I:1 4 6 0 ;4 . 141;U A l t . hf ,ri llgistl a r r 9 ll p eci rop , G o s e e n d o lly e ina his n said the same thing previous to Catholic manciption. On that occasion, being asked whether he thought, if the Ro man Catholics in Ireland tverc.*l444 tq TO civil rights with the Protestants, it would be in the power of any man to collect large assemblies of individuals for the distur bance of the public peace, the Itotiourable and Learned Gentleman expressed his persuasion that in the event supposed no stieh power would exist, for that it was only the sense of injury which had stimulated the people of Ireland to any acts of disorder or violence. Being further asked, whether he thought there was any probability of an attempt being made to dissolve the Union, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman re plied, that he considered any declaration of that kind as mere rhetorical flourishes, and not with any actual view to termi nate an union which in his humble opinion, was indissoluble. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman also stated his conviction that neither tithes ern- the question of the Union would ere:• again be the subject of discussion and agitation in Ireland if Emancipation were passed. On the occasion alluded to the lion. and Learned Gentleman declared, and the declaration was an important one, that if Catholic Emancipation was agreed to, all pretence of setting the interests of one portion of the people of Ireland against the interests of another por tion would- be taken away. There was one individual, how ever, whose conduct might fairly have been expectes', not t falsify the Hon. Learned Gentleman's prediction. That indi vidual was the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had declared to the Committee, that at least he could answer for himself, that if he had a fair chance of rising in the profession for which he had endea voured to qualify himself—if the exasperating impediments to advancement in that profession which grew out of his religious creed were removed, he should give himself no further concern about politics, but should devote himself exclusively to his pro fessional avocations. He ( Sir R. Peel) confessed that he la mented that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had not been at tentive to his reputation as a prophet, at least so far as to abstain from using his talents in Ireland in every description of excite ment and exaggeration with respect to the tithe and other ques tions.—( Hear, hear.) Was it to be believed that the object of the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary was merely to obtain from the Irish Established Church a sum c.f . 50,000/. a-year ? No. His support to the measure proposed by the Noble Lord was founded on the fact that, being a eon mentions Romar, Catholic, he believed that, coupled with the reduction of income, it involved a principle fatal to the cha racter and even to the existence of the Protestant Church of Ireland.—( Hear, hear,) And so it did. Lord Althorp said that the Church of Ireland should be independent. The No ble Lord's Bill said that it should be dependent on that small portion of the Privy Council known by the name of the Com missioners of Woods and Forests. Every future incumbent in Ireland was to be a vicar only, while the Roman Catholic Clergy were to remain in their existing state. Hereafter it would be impossible for any minister of the Established Church in Ireland to claim or to fulfil the functions of a rector. The good sense of the people of England must determine whether he, and those who thought with him, were warranted by the circumstances of the case in refusing to be penis_ to the mea sure proposed by the Noble Lord. For his own part, he viewed what was taking place in Ireland with reference to the Church with the greatest concern and anxiety. So far was he from exulting at the success of the processes for recovering tithes, that alt such feeling was entirely hist in regret at the circum stances which prompted such proceedings. He solemnly de clared before God, that of all public objects, that which he most wished to see accomplished, was a total cessation of every thing like religious discord in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) If the House thought that the Noble Lord's measure would be bene ficial, they would overrule the objections to it, and adopt it. But if they thought that it was not a satisfactory measure—if they believed that it was essential to the best interests of Ire land and the empire that the ministers of the Protestant Church in Ireland should be placed in a condition of de cent competence—if they looked forward to the time when the Protestant religion would be further extended—if they relied for that extension not on the severe operation of penal laws, but on the bland influence of the divine precepts of the religion itself—if they believed that the progress of light and knowledge would secure a gradual and general adherence to its pure doctrines, they would not betray that religion by pretending to be convinced by arguments, the transparency of which was so manifest, or by allowing themselves to become the dupes of calculations, the fallacy of which was so easily detected—(Hear)—they would not consent to injure the Pro testant Church by making the Protestant clergy stipendiaries paid by Government--they would not consent to strike a fatal blow at civil liberty and true religion, by destroying the inde pendence of the Church, and degrading the character of its Ministers. —(The Rt. Hon. Bart. sat down amidst loud cheers, )-- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not intend to trouble the House at any length ; but there were some statements made by the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth that appeared to be very much beside the real question. Was it right for the Honourable Gentlemen, that on an important question of this kind, he should occupy himself and the attention of the House in in stituting comparisons between the salaries of the door-keepers and messengers of the House of Commons and the clergymen of the Church of England? There was no analogy whatever between the two cases which the' Right llon. Baronet had put, except, indeed, it was drawn from the provision. in a former Bill, respecting the 5/. parsons of whom they had heard so much. He thought the Hon. Baronet would have occupied the attention of the House with other and better considerations, and amongst these was the ;question- of remu neration, which must be taken into account in this and every future Bill on the same subject. The great principle which they had to guide them in such cases - was to ap portion the remuneration to the service done, and where no duty was performed, there should be ne remuneration. If the principle advocated by the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem ber for Tamworth were to be adopted, the House would be guilty of a crime if they did not apply to the Consolidated Fund for additional salaries for the poor English clergy, some of whom had not a tenth part of the amount allotted to the door-keepers. With respect to the opinions imputed to them (the Government) which had been expressed by others at that side of the House, he begged to remind Honourable Gentle men that his Majesty's Ministers were responsible only for their own opinions and their own arguments ; but a fair con struction had not been put on them. The Hon. Member for Tipperary had expressed his approbation of tho voluntary principle ; but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had no hesitation in saving that he was entirely against that principle: The Right Honour a bl e B aronet t h e M em b er for Tamworth, had ' said that his (the Chancellor . of the Exchequer's) Noble Friend had shown a diminished attach ment to the Protestant Church in Ireland. Now he did not understand that his Noble Friend had laid down any new prin ciple for the application of Church property. He had saki in his place, on the 30th of July, 1832, That that property was too large for the Church's own good, us had been proved by experience, and that eerie° of it might be advantageously spared for the education of the people, and so he said in the present day. Lord Spencer also had said in that House, on the 17th of June, 1834, that the Irish .Church property was greater than what the Establishment required, and that so far from injuring it by taking a portion from it for national purposes, it would be benefitted. The first de claration was made whilst his Noble Friend set beside the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire, and the other by his the (Chancellor of the Exchequer's) Noble Colleague after the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire had withdrawn from the Cabinet. When he heard the Right Hon. Baronet speak of tl.e new lights they had been compelled to adopt, and of the engessemorits into which they had been forced to enter, he could not refrain from charac terising the representation as most false. and malicious.— (Cheers.) It was contrary both to their duty, to their con sciences, and to the Monarch whom they served, He would repeat, that a more disgraceful and calumnious charge—one more destitute of any foundation —h a d never been uttered within the walls of Parliament against any set of Ministers..._. (Loud cheers.) At that late hour lie would not obtrude much further on the attention of the House. lie could not, how ever, avoid saying that he differed altogether from the Hon. Gentleman opposite as to the probable amount of surplus. In the amount of glebe alone he could show that the giallo land of two provinces alone exceeded the estimeto of the Right Honourable Gentleniatt opposite, and that the total amount of the value of glebe Lunde was 86,000/. Now with respect to • the prophecies of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Tipperary, which had been so much alluded to, it .s.hould be recollected that those prophecies were put forth in the year 1825, during the admi nistration of Lord Liverpool, when all the claims of the Roman Catholics were opposed.--( Hear, hear.) It would be as just to say, that agitation in -Ireland was thereon: sequence of the postponement of those claims, as that the prophecies of the Honourable and Learned Member had not been fulfilled. Now he (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) had heat d another prophecy at the time of the passing. of the Reform Bill, and that was, that the guns which had been tired on that day on which the Reform Bill had received the Royal assent, would on the next day on which they should be fired be shotted. Now this was the prophecy of one whe knew something about the shotting of guns. He hoped his - Noble Friend would persevere and still bring in his Bill; But he had some doubts. It was not an usual way for a Member who was really desirous of bringing in a Bill to move it as an instruction, The Right Hon. Baronet o 'site (Sir Jam es Grelintn) ppo had said that th e Ministers were spell-bound hot were the people of lint:land spell-bound also? Was it fair t o re p resent to the people of England that the Church was in danger by this measure,' and that the Pro testants of Ireland were to be deprived of moral and religious - instruction? He was not afraid to meet the people of Eng land on this point, Ile was wilting to pay the ministers of the Established Church; but then, after paying them, he would 'apply the surplus to the improvement of the morals and ro• li,gion of the great mass of the people. A reselniion stood recorded in the journals of the noun, iliat any surplus after providing for the ProteetenS eiergy should be so ap plied. The Goyernmelit were only endeavouring to per form the q ty which that resolution bud imposed upon them. They were not influenced by any party motive.-- ' ( Hear, and oh, oh, ) Was it fogs a party purpose that the Church commission had been appointed ? It was true that the Right fi e n, Gentleman opposite had been turned out of office upon this question, but the present Government had only done what they had promised. The Right Hon. 13oro net had been the victim of his own policy, and upon his fall the present Ministers had- risen, and they would have been disgraced had they not adhered to the principles upon which they had come into office. As an Irishman and a Churchman he was most anxious to give tranquillity to his country., acid se curity to the E s t a bli s h e d Ch urc h.—(Chec;sin#..) 1 1 * was no idle boast. Hi s deaseet 'llituce44 l vcro bound, up with the intoretA 1 . 4 A ?tor hi try, irPeg thatthc Same credit would lie given lo nrfor sincerity in tllie respect as h e was ready to accord to other gontlereeP. M a man who h a d some stake in irelend,' hp ; would say *at %hero could he no repose in the etAttrltry until this question NYA 3 settled. If 60,0001. annually, paid from the surplus of Ohurch property, were to give peace to Ireland, why quarrel with such an application of it ? The people of i re fi e et ought to have an interest in the Church roverty of the country. This would be the only means of saving the Irish Church. The appropriatwa eta se was not objected to ; bat it should be recollected that on a former occasion the Tithe Big was obiected to without the appropriation clause, and if thy stopped now a still tfoncession would be denrinded hereafter. He thanked the House for the attention with which he had been listened to, and ha. , l he not beinel it necessary he should not have tres gr:ater passed on them so long.—(Cheers.) The House then divided, when the numbers were— P.,r the original nitrion For the amendment 261 :Majority for Ministers... ...... The other Ord ers o f the Day were then dispo sed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter past Three o'Clock. - - FROM LAST NIGHT'S GAZETTE• WAR-OFFICE, JuiiF. 3, 1836. . Scots Fusilier Guard- Licut Lord W. Butler to be Lieutenant and Captain, by purchase, vice Fitzroy, who retires; E. J. Strac_ek Gent., to be Ensign and Lieutenant, by purchase, vic e Lord W Butler, June 3. 3d Regiment of Foot—Ensign H. P. Chamberla,Kinetnozbiee LGteettntt.e: nant, by purchase, vice Jones, who retires ; K. AI to be Ensign, by purchase, vice Chamberlain, June 3. 16th Foot—J. A. Campbell, Gent., to be Ensign, by purchase , vice Sparkes, who retires, June 3. 25th Foot `Second Lieut. W. Abbot, from the half-pay of the 3d Ceylon Regiment, to be Ensign, repaying the difference, June 3; Ensign E. R. Priestley, from the 45th Regiment of Foot, to be Ensign, vice Abbot, who retires, June 4. " 33d Foot—Ensign G. Erskine to be Lieutenant, by purch ase, vice Massy, who retires; C. Mills, to be Ensign, by Pur chase, vice Ersleine, June 3, 45th Foot—J. G. Smyth., -ent., to be Ensign, by pu rchase, vice Priestley, appinte'! to the 25th Regiment of Foot, June 4 . 59th Not—J. .online, Gent.. to be Ensign, by purchas e, vice Bell, promoted i n th e I s t West India Regiment, June 4. 62d Foot—Ensign G. J. Fulton, from the 77th Regiment of Foot, to he Ensign, vice 'Unlock, who exchanges, June 3. With Foot—Lieut. R. C. Lloyd, to be Captain, by purchase, vice Marlton, who retires ; Ensign C.' S. S. Evans, to be Lieutenant, by purebese, vice Lloyd ; T. Tydd, Gent., to be Ensign, by Per" chase, vice Evans, June 3. 77th Foot—Ensign T. E. 'Unlock, from the 62d Regirac"t o f Foot, to be Ensign, vice Fulton, who exchanges, June 3. 85th Foot—Major F. Maunsell to be Lieutenant-Colonel, with out purchase, vice Warburton,- deceased; Captain H. J. Frencl" to be Major, vice Maunsell, May 2.3 ; Lieut. W. H.Phibbs, front the 25th Regiment of Foot, to be Captain, vice French, June 3* 87th Foot—Captain R. K ea ti nge , f rom t h e 99 t h Regiment °f Foot, to be Captain, vice Maxwell, who exchanges, June 3. 93d Foot-Ensign W. P. Trevalyan to be Lieutenant, by Pur chase, vice Fitz James, who retires; G. Studdert, Gent. to be "- ' siffn, by purchase, vice T reva l yan , J une 3. 99th Foot—Captain M. Maxwell, from the 87th Regiment of Foot, to be Captain, vice Keatinge, who exchanges, June 3. Ist West - India Regiment--Ensign W. C. Pindcr to be Lieut.,* by purchase, vice Humfrev, who retires, June p; Ensign from the 59th Regim en t o f F o ot, t o b e Lieut.. by purc h ase , vice J. R. Grant, who retires, June 4. BREVET. Aiajor G. Baker, on the half-pay Unattached, to be Lieut.- Colonel in the Army, June 3. • Deputy Assistant Commiss COMMlSSAßlAT ionary-General T. C. B. 'Weir, to be Assistant Commissionary-General, April 11. MEMORANDUM. The date of the commission of th e R ev. Willi am B ea ttie Smith.,: as B Chaplain of Stirling Castl e , i s N ov . 22 , 18 35, an d no t Oct. 1. • The date of Lieut. Donald son ' s comm i ss i on i n t h e 41 s t Regou eot in of Foot, and that of Li eu t. V aug h an ' s appo i ntment as Adjutaut -- that Corps, are Sept. 18, 1832, and not April 12, 1833., BANKRUPTCIES SUPERSEDED. JOHN PHILIPPS, brewer, Wapping. S o mers shire. CUFF WEBB, i ronmonger , B m i ns t er , Some shire. ROBERT HUNT, Silk manuf ac t urer , Steward-street, Spa' fields, BANKRUPTS. JOHN SNOW, innkeeper, Timberham, Charlwood. Surr e y' June 10, at one, and July 15, at twelve, at the Court of F,ankruptlYo; Clark, official assignee, St. Swithin's-lane, Lombard- street ; Tay and Collison Bedford-row. WILLIAM TOWNSEND and WILLI/ 4 2NT BROWN , ls; housemen, Cheapside, June 10, at half-pP.st eleven, and July Ir„„ eleven, at the Court of Bankruptcy. Graham, Conthall-builcuna-' official' assignee; Bell, Broderick and Bell, Bow Church-yard' WILLIAM BOOSEY, miller, Chatham, June 14, at tw elve ' and July 15, at h a lf- pas t twe l ve, at the Court of Bankruptcy , nan, Sambrook -court, Basinghall-street, official assignee; e. worth, (Chatham; C rouc h , Southampton-buildings Chancery-111 FELGATE, grocer, Chi c h es t er -pl ace , 'Gray's Inn-road' June 10, at one, and July 15, at twelve, at the Court of Ban ruptcy. Abbott, official assignee ; S aun d ers an d C omyn , Quee n, street Place, Southwark-bridge. P 5, ROBERT LUND, joiner, Bridlington, Yorkshire, June at one, and July 15, at twelve, at the Court of Bankruntcy. G reen ' Aldermanbury, official assignee ; Lewis and Lewis, I: l i l y-Place' • WILLIAM JENNINGS, victualler, St. Alban's ertfordsbnie: June 10, at eleven, and July 15, at one, at the Court of 1 311 a ruptcy. Gibson, riasinghall-street, official assignee ; Gresham I n Miller, Castle-street, Holborn. RICHARD YATES, v i c t ua ll er , Great Wild-street, Li n coln 'g Inn-fields, June 8, at t wo , an d J u l y 15 , at eleven at the Coot f , Bankruptcy. Gold aid, Ironmon ger -l ane , o ffi c i a l ass i gnee; Heath cote, Coleman-street. WILLIAM GIBBS, soap-manufacturer, Liverpool, June 13 ! and July 15, at one, a t th e Clarendon-buildings, Liverpool. Hous e ' John-street, Liverpool. EDWARD HARDING, victualler, Melksham, Wiltshire, J un° 13, and July 15, at twelve, at the Bear Inn, Melksham, Wiltshire' F. and C. Moule, Melksham ; Wright, Golden-square, London. JOHN JEFFREYS and WILLIAM BARTON, wine-mer chants, Liverpool, June 23, and July 15, at one, at the Clarendon' rooms, Liverpool. Blackstock, Bunce, and Vincent, Templ e, London ; Brabner and Atkinson, Liverpool. an d JAMES FRANKLAND, merc h ant , Li verpool, June 15, a July 15, at two, at the Clarendon-rooms, Liverpool. Chester, Staple lon, London ; Davenport, Lord-stre e t, Li verpoo l. ne ROBERT RlDSDALE:horsedealer, Murton, near York, J a 20, and J u l y 15 at e l even, at the Falcon Inn, Alicklegate, i,. Williamson and Hill, Gray's Inn, London. MATTHEW ROBINSON LEGGE, common b rewer , teg s head, Du r h am , J u l y 1 an d 15, at the Bankrupt Commission Newcastle-upo n -Ty ne . B e ll, B ro d r i c k and Bell, Chcaps id e , don : Briggs, High-street, Gateshead. a t JAMES FINLAY, leather-seller, lioundsditeh, June r s o, one, and July 15, a t t we l ve , a t t h e C ourt of Bankruptcy. J°l lace, Basin A h a ll- s t ree t, official assignee ; Beeth ams , Chathain - P Blackfriars. DIVIDENDS. At the Court of Bigtruptcy, Basinghall-street. W. Tatchell and S. Cl ar k e , hem dealers, Great Eas tche q: June 27, at half-past eleven—R. Hays, bookseller, Regen JstreZ, June 24, at eleven—W. Elkins, bo o k se ll er , O x f or d- s t re et, un e :is, at eleven--R. Clarke, coal factor, C oa l E xc h ange , City, Ju v e , e °s at twelve—G. Simpson, mariner, Upper Grosvenor-street , venor-squaro, June 25, at one—W. Jackes, corn dealer, Guileuth street, Blackfriars-road, June 25, at half-past twelve. In the Country. J. Mountain, common brewer, Sculcoates, Yorkshire, Ju.„,.°e rk —T. Taylor and J. Taylor, jun., merchants, Holderness , shire, June 25—J. Hadley, grocer, Cradley, Worcestershire. Juzne. 29—H. C. Watkins, brewer, Pendleton, Lancashire, June 25-- rtl, Devoge, Jacquard machine maker, Manchester, June 27—. He n, licensed victualler, Appleby, Westmoreland, July 2—W. chant" grocer, Darlington, Durham, July 5—W. Clark, hop titer , Liverp;c: Kingston-upon-hull, June 15—C. Challinor, merchant, Y o rkshi June 25—J. and W. Thompson, merchants, Rawdon, July 2. Ilildro CERTIFICATES.—JUNE 24. C. Martin and B. Ware, cheesemongers, Great Tor-strehentjs T. Wagstaff, farrier, Little E xe t er - s t ree t: we Chelsea bookseller, ?lie"- bookseller, Wakefield, Yorkshire. PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED. T. Y. Ha wes an d H. F a i t h, c h ees emonger,, Broadway, PePtt: ford—J, and J. S. Holdsworth, corn chantilerS, Tottenham -co o road--W. Miller and J. Holloway, blacksmiths, Brackn ell, shire—J. Fairfax and R. W eaver , n e wspaper pro p r ietors, Lea t , l f!: l s ton Priors, Warwickshire--J. Smith and H. W. flernage, Nelson-place, G rave l-l ane , S out h war k — W. A r mstrong, a", ( jar , Brannan, dru gg i s t s , Workington, Cumberland—E. and GI. F. n d . T rison , wood ffrowers, Skirbtsclt, Lincolnshire—C. J. War" and A, Rus.ell, jun., manufacturers of waterproof articles, Cheshun J. Pickering and F. Green, ladies' bootmakcrs, 111ount-st7o, Berkelev-square—.W. Peck, j un ., an d J. Palmer, jun. , i c " Boston;Lincolnshire—J. All ansun and G. Vivian, wroolst3t!,, 'l'alskiddv, Corn wa ll—J. Gl over an d J. W o odhcad, whitesomilf.. Leeds—W. Connell ansl J. Duncalfe, hat manufacturers , Great R u e. folk-street, Southwa r k—S. T. an d G. Black, and J. surgeons, Exmouth, Devonshire—AL King and J. Murat' makers, Port Glasg ow —J. C ar f ra e, sen and J. Carfrac, ' booksellers, Edinburgh. About seventeen years since, as we are assurd. e4:l strong frost occurred on the night of the Bth of June, "..I",,i_ did iaealculable mischief in the neighbourhood of Wakehe. as well as in most other places. (AnvErmsEmENT.) are'he NEW PLAT GOLD eered in double-bottomed engine-turned Cases, with ace"' ~ nished vertical movements, jewelled and warranted for Guineas each, or, with highly-tinished horizontal movement ranted-at Nine Guineas each, at T. COX SAVORY'S, W rk" 'WATC 11 ;6, Goldsmith, Silversmith, and Watchmaker , 47, Cornhill, Lond°u.,,, Bill :MS. Herts.. 0° On the 31st ult., at Norton Vicarage , near Ba ldock, lady of the Rev. J. B Watson, of a son. Rev- On the 31st ult., at . Kemp-town, Brighton, the lady of d'e J. S. M. Anderton, of a son. MARRIED. - Rea ld - On the 2d inst., ar St. Giles's Church , Cripp le g ate, eldest son of Sep y Esq., strectv timus Read, of Jewin-street, to Mar 3b r garet, second daughter of Thomas Robinson, Esq., of Fore- and Tottenh. On the Ist am inst., at Bolney, Sussex, the Rev. Hamilton Sydneot Heresford, of Brailes, Warwickshire, to Louisa, fourth daughter 1- the late p. Brown, Esq.,of Russell-square. ni . se D am ., to . Frances,. Only daughter On the 17th of April, at Madeira, Alexander Horne Ren'..-etti y, in Jamaica. of the late H. Wallies, Es 4.p ° t h i O n I n d t a lr g h l t B e t r h o u f 1 t R . o a b t c N rt e ll w l c a a e ls l lt : l t i • e : ° ll .nl) . - E .T s 3 q n . e , the Cou • nttes of Northumberland, Durham, and Cumberland, late ,Rdeceeepilvyi;geretted, Jane, of London. On the 9 1 " inst., at Greenwich, Andrew Poutell, only sury ivior t son of A. lnspedor for H. Thomson, Esq., of Bultielcl, 'Westmoreland, and ' t Austin-friars, London. On the 31st ult., E 1 W ' lit • fTI orney Milk, Bueks, Ed w , rig , jun., a , aged 37. On the 20th ult., at St. Wi nnols, Cornwall, aged 68, Ann, re lictOn thh 0.1 te Rev. . oberts. e 9th ultD.,r at R Dorking, ITeathfield Young, Esq , aged s . l On the 27th ult., Margaret, the widow of the late Esq., of Lancaster Lodge - Wandsw.rth. On the 15th ult., in Liverpool, 2 , 70-' 63 31iriam, relict Ora r: .1 , ham Joseph, Esq. T. S_nit 1, On the 26th ult. , aged 91; 111 rs. Elizabeth Barnjum. On the 27th ult., at Piston, aged 57, Mrs. Dennis Shutt. On the 15th nit., at Caine, Wiltshire, Miss Harrison. ----........,,—,..,_,,....-.......-..................... -- -- • - io. --_..-----••••••"-----' London : Printed and, Nb,ll6,hed by AIURDO YOUNG, 0f rn._ 112, Strand, at '4'4o 57471 Ofnees No. 112, St r and s in the cou t of Middlesex.k l