The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-14 00:00:00

not Leo I mpartiality, and grant to thc people of Ireland what they were jclearly entitled to, he should not despair of the Roman Catholics oining heart and hand with such a proposition. For the pre sent, he thought that everything should be done to improve the College of Alaynooth—( hear, hear)—and that double the a mount that was at present allowed by the Government to that establishment ought to be granted to it. There ought to be greater means given to colleges at which il!liberal education could be derived. When he spoke of a beral education, and when he spoke of the nom Catho vcs of Ir e l its& he most say that he w as n o t one o f tho• e w h o thoug,ht it at all necessary that Roman Catholics should be t aken from a higher class of soviets - , or that they should be. l i n ng to a ciao - era class' to that to which they at present be ?oged. lie thought there was a great defect at present in littleir edu cat i on. Still, however, there was a princi, le in the ettl au Cath lie Ch urc h w hi c h was not unwort h y of any ether Christian Church, by which a person, however low, o°llld ri se to eminence in the Church. Such, then, were his Pinions w i t h respect to this subject. All that he would do olt present would he to improve the system of education in ' el ands and to give larger sums towards it. He thought they n i ti ght to give the same advantages to the Roman Catholic as were possessed by the clergy of the Protestant ot. ureh. At all events, he thought those derogatory distinc• 3 ought to be taken from the Homan Catholic clergy. lie IIY should not the bishops be allowed to call themselves by hename of the diocese over which they were placed?-(Hear.) ts t hought it was an unwise and a foolish thing not to allow ji er ° to do so. Why should not Dr. Murray be called the s• ent arl Catholic Archbishop of Ireland ? He was the Arch sash° *jun P of Ireland. His character was held in the highest estima the I t a lthough he had not received much countenance from Lori' Lieutenant of Ireland. If there was any advantage ;y e ll by the Act of Union to the Protestant Church, which L,113 no t given to the Catholic Church and the l'resbyterian untedit, the should at once be abolished. There still ro -4i ta toe question of the E tablished Church in Ireland. C t i le beli eved that Archbishop Whately had pug forward a plan il t nake th e Ch urch a Church of c mgrcgations and not a there were tw o P rotestants in a parish, a m i nister was endowed Win, a ores sufficient income to attend to the spiritual wants of two rersons. In that parish there might have been 3,000 tiistt)oo Cathol es, and it would be evident that no parochial fast Sear. could fairly be made. Another instance was stated minister w as In a parish, where there were 1,000 Protestants, a t b i "lter was appointed with 1001. a-year. In such a ease as _%he thought the income of the minister ought to have been reased, lie thought the income of the Iri , h Church was t4100:0n any Church - on the Continent possessed. They had, bout 450,00 N. as a perpetuity fund. How this large ti,llollonrt was applied he was at a loss to imagine. By the abolt aoo the 25 percent, of the tithes of the clergy, a sum of si on 'yutte• had been saved. Had this sum gone to the eaten triaaati s piritual instruction—had it gone to the extension of :obi!n y H . No, it h a d gone t o b ene fi t th e l an dl or d s . e tb_ u ght, th ere f ore, that if they could diminish the income of fur suc h a purpose, t h ey m i g h t at l east d o now advance spiritual instruction and education. He came that t ° the most important uestion of all, namely, stm of landlord and tenant. Ile would refer the House to the st al ,, nie ut Made by M r . O'C onne ll on thi s su bj ec t, and if that nient ;sere founded on truth, it became incumbent on that A5 r 115 , 5 ,t0 ent er ser i ous l y i nto t h e cons id erat i on o f t h e su b ject. in " c Connell said t h e connex i on b e t ween l an dl or d an d t enan t 'eland was a mos t v i c i ous ono . Th e l a b ouring popu l at i on 5 t the n the extreme verge of destitution. The system had led siarMost ho rr ibl e cr i mes . I t was, t h ere f ore, necessary to fair e st teh a r ev i s i on o f t h e system as wou l d g i ve t h e l and l or d a trb_r,eannt for his l an d an d t h e tenant a j ust return f or hi s l a b our . eitit;!y d i lord and t enant quest i on was one o f t h e utmost 6ilaitthi's: factor t was i n d ee d a tas k to p l ace t h ese re l ations on a h ot t footing. It was imposible to read those passages and Rhos ° ad mit that M r . O'Connell, the leader of the people, 1,023 business it was to hold out for immediate advantages taste ren.al • must have been deeply impressed with the impor filies °f thin question, when he said th it. the relation of it was t, 4 With danger. He (bad J. Russell) would not ven . ture 'l l 4 _ l l what should be the course of legislation on this subject. e,ii;e9overnment had appointed a Commission toobtain further ar l‘l ito t i l t _e• He doubted whether further evidence waC"tome necessary. an r ,l'ad already been given on the subject before . _ phi Commissioner;. Such statements as were in the pam P. ece e _,Utitled " A Cr) from Ireland," and which recorded the Lod e eu lngs of one of the landlords, Richard Shea of Blackwell thergas were truly painful to peruse. The narratives recorded read , t ere truly - heart-rending, and he would not venture to by ;nein to the House if they were not supported *Neck' evidence. All these statements could not be th at) f u , and if there were an of them tre, it suciently t. pro h ved hea r , ab t he nam e of the the. y law, the u powers o ffi f the aw ari excis ed ?sells and that the power of the landlords bad been ex- Ves t o an ext ent tru l y drea d lu l . H e thought it would tend esi4 n lu to the mitigation, if not to the removal, of those itchfile steps were taken to make the administration of jus elsalre PUre, and above all, to separate more from the land er,a, °I. the country the functions of magistrate. He thought In ii i et "ion of stipendiary magistrates would be very desirable._ tes ed e i word s of M. Fox, he wished to see the laws .adannihs dtnce t n a spirit of equity and impartiality, so as to give con . - f tho se ° the people. He hoped, by such means, that many o I nce act s of rapaei . ty and violence on the one hand, and t e and cruelty on ' theother, would be curbed and d e ehecke ; b ,d ut for sc,ettld not venture to say that he knew of any direct rents Ity has - ,,g r eat, so extensive, and so long-enduring an ev e il. and s ° tlts aa " s e arlY a century since circumstances inlreland 'hea l ' s as general as now existed, occurred ermietnt think that a few pages of an Act of Parliamentlwould the ire such evils. —(Hear, hear.) Having nosy detained cla ss i t ulse at such length—(Cries no, an lou ant er n ,' t` Hear, hear," from the Oppositton)—he would not lit° the various complaints which hail beau , made ra ther, n g the present condition of Ireland. (The Noble Lord /ery s T i e ael an extract from the speech of Mr. Fox, delivered the sni ? r tlY after the union had been carried, with respect to s %ps4;t t in which that country should be governed, and which Ra t s ) 4u ul were applicable to the present state of Ire *ere PoitO4, Mr. F ox denied that the people of that country Isl °Yals o r t a i nte d w i t h treason, an d with the thaw, of Jaeobinical principles and he said that . no °I taiSe"un existed, except what had resulted from the faults Peat r,erurnent,( Hear, hear.) Mr. Fox said he knew a 44 0 mail of Ireland both front having been in that country, and *es, ,! ° , 11 3' private' individuals. He knew that that people !in stil) .rrit a bi_ e and alive to injury—that they possessed quick It llSs4. s ull quick resentment ; but he said, that of all the feel actuated them none was more predominant, from the ghcand C' to th e low es t c l asses , t h an gra tit u d e for benefactions thang se to of ki n d ness . Let the English Governme n t f eren t e thew' system of policy, and they would find them a dd . - kid P e °Ple—l e t th em try the effects of good government, for o s Imparti a l ) , administered, and there would be no need ti military governments or executions. Such were the ten aoants of Air. Fox, who had been long in his grave, and remain s were who close at hand, in that receptacle _lxh_agnr,eat and the good of all ages. Such were the words of tu u prornot li wa s th e spirit that must animate all who endeavoured promot e the welfare and the happiness of the Irish people. That as the system %\ i r e, knew would he a system to conciliate which Mr. Frmi, lavin Irelan, had said pish eople.—( Loud cheers.) Theffnn,e t the now tons an n o p f por the_ , tn il t'ilit-tY—a late opportunity it was true, but ig st a i d l a l ffne s ec ufficiently in Po reui l it t: te - : t of irte.a_lis(ing that which Mr. Fox had said was the true for thc country to pursue after Ireland should have been Cheers.) He was reminded of what had been ai sur isle respecting another country which had been long greatly tle, o 4red after its union with England, and which had been ed ,,, b Y one of Scotland's ost gifted sons, Sir Walter sli, t---kkAleers.) Sir Walter Scott stated that when George tosr arti x tue to the throne, the people of Scotland began to look r ebeni s t he young sovereign for repose after the disorders and sa irtle cl uss and redress of those wrongs which had agitated the ParCrY during the rein of his randfather, after the Acts of lanaelarntent proscribing the language' and dress of the High • "llts er s which had produced irritation and resistance. An toy, ll ',d been proposed for a commission in his Majesty's th e side lt was represented to the Sovereign that he fought on ;Noe,in Pretender, and had performed many gallant n °Rist 'us service., " Well," replied the King, "if he has ~.oicheellreapglayi, n , ,s t me he will no doubt, fight equally for said ' Sir Walter Scott, "was circulated t heir Litlighlands, and, although the Highlanders retained rla s h ;vs act notion s of the right of the House of Stuart, yet l o z a tl i d , x i s ay the d i n r w a n tta t c h .hrtue ni t IO reigning family that they for te a Prince of the House of threit°s,er.--(Cheers.r W l e ve h s adnow a young Queen upon the trin est bxud during the t . f her grandfather many cala t`tedsethweardefallelveneraulpon Ireland. lme e There had been a rebellion— ralglish Par°lll)pressive laws t _ e e c n e ac la te n d s , both by the Irish had produced re lett _se on the part atoent, and h re she se rsrei2l of the people.—( Hear, hear.) Their pre avh, w as 84ar vi a a t s d as young as George lll. had then been. 11.44 sholdd not thee from the memory of those calamities. Deal 'obj ects present Queen reign over the hearts of her h, as a __ • , so that ,however attached they might be to re tve Isuo abstract question, the real benefits which they could th,Partic T, 4 .Pejlect equality of laws, and from an equal and 04,14 071tnistration of justice—( Loud cheers )—would bind descountry by a real, a perfect, and an indissoluble or s i jOhla ° °( l cheers.) What was there to prevent such . a lst n • ha tac ver • .—( Cheers.) Not the personal wish tha n t he 1 1 , ei gn. --- (Loud cheers.) That Sovereign he . had r: 11 sh e JnOUr to serve, and for any one to be more anxious ow" ,;‘ , ,s to secure the benefit and happiness of the Irish De tiled 4° Possible.—( Loud cheers.) Ilehad never, when t e ch% r offic e of Secretary of State for the Home Depart ts,'Pealtec:lted an intimation from tt Sovereign andCatholic is e Presby- V a ° Pe ol , l eheers. ), Who, then, would stand between the ° wool,and this most desirable consummation ?--(Cheers.) y n ut (it,"erl,Tevent Ireland from being what Scotland was tlo e jt rs,,N)—from being united with England by a real th en 't 'Procal affection ?—(Cheers. ) Would the House th, jagirense cheering.) If the House should . or? decide, tla ' ti tns elv e , b ' w ould they be taking a heavy responsibility upon tlish er s of ex posing their country for many years to the tu t h we r Pr.et'arious dominion over Ireland, and of dim -140. th e 4 . , ,, th regard to foreign nations...--(Loud cheers.) two's stie crin _"use, rising above those prejudices, and showingltg . N TI to Ilse spirit of party, should desire to unite the to the and to i ns; 10 In the bonds of reciprocal affection, and,_ ve gi sri tiaa,teen !putt of justice, should rely upon the lo W osi ° , ll 3 the Irish people to make that country a W ool ] verit o ;2rice s and the source of strength for England, he ord `L not b e `,? o answer for it, that the hopes of the House tsera"..erloudet:lsa,,ppoitited. - (Immense cheering.) The Noble ills,s n tlou s `SY moving Ins resolution, and sat down amidst b Wy ePring from all parts of the House. 4the Nub s,eneord iSE s econded t h e mot i on which had been propose d el Plat I sd in th e e l oquent speech to which the H ouse tai ttsn ° th ay b A speech distinguished as much by its th. d Y Its justice, calculated only to awake England ang ers 182, 3 Tltnt sast 13 . she was incurring. How marked was .em i r tb etw een the present period and the year Wa r l down, antit Year they had a Minister of the Crown 4t tlet e would s tating that rather than run the risk of civil Tb e us e __ sacrifice his own friends, and break dnwn the e t her Si i'ePP,ression which he had assisted in building th er vecii, n flash accepted the proffered boon with kindness those was no ' th . VI him the Ematiciisation Act had been passed, eo liti e ,Pers o , ulgi eithe r in the statute-book or in the roll of i ts iry, to were to carry out the administration of the t he b b et lefits B.lnw t hat the - Catholic ' s were admitted to o h !, ssef, rtn ' It might be said of that Act, as of ,two i fit tt , that it was a failure. There were co tta Just e a et gible courses to pursue, one was to act i. t..a r was tt, nd fairness towards ' the peop le of Ireland, the % m a despotism .and force. The conduct offauf unman ir, re! , rt . was intelligible, so was the conduct o ti es " 'eou to aithnenrws min‘lrelanci.—( ties th e Pita E The Right . Hon. Gentle ny instances of oppression it r thi s ngland inwards Ireland from theinvasions) r lot only brought miser t the oppressed, but ti °:[ ned h v i l )" „ t ." "Ppressors themselves , as though it were vi tie i‘,r_'',,,elenee that there should ' be a day of retribu- J t i l l _Wt e tl ithe .urr:a.,--ai(llear, hear.) The penal laws were de penia: of ct, i ngenuity to harrass and oppress the siso:ier4elgtrlliemet.in,\,%a,,enrn:it.htnernl.g The country grievously suffered trill' 'ere obtainedland was in difficulties conces people were allowed to receive „rat ion and conferred power, stree)'es first Tetnimin aamengsmaltlhe and power led to rooopmpreisnsed.a poorl'he 1 41 0 '41 t 4l h at il t n h h a l in, till, at length, their numbers increased teit struggle erncombination could not be resisted. e Afte; a f ie end esp ec .„ ~_t_telPation was obtained, and the people of same ( s alt benefits which ought to have a ct ir wed it. Cla n -I)n' 't of itq stshsatilgl,!)avl ; ;;es and rendered it as littleseoffel the s ist e e s ci si t h h le at c o t n i g ve r a es Itlisattnatifthstealatao7rl,,nit.nr inthlerelNanodhlwe e L e o e r a d p t p h a e ren fi t rst Symptoms for the - 'Aintienht twoeottfieeletandfea u fe p v, o , t, the late Govern- He reeol di Point Roman Catholics. t He was him elf in Germany when his appointment was made, ; and he recollected the observations made in Germany at the time. They asked whether it was possible that a country so free as England, and which preached freedom and liberty to all foreign States, could act in such a narrow spirit towards Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) But so it was. The Right lion. Gentleman soon after came into power. He looked forward to the Noble Lord opposite, the Member for Cornwall, fir impartial justice, but such had t of turned out to be the case. He had felt no doubt that, although they had not the Government of Lod Normanby or the Earl Forteseue, that justice would be done to Ireland.—( Hear, hear. ) What had taken place ? A State prosecution, for what ?--Why, doing that which every Irishman was entitled to du. Every proceeding had been taken against the Catholics of Ireland that could be. They had b, en removed from the bench and magistracy, and in the selection of judges the wishes of the people had not beep con sulted.—( Hear.) He thought they looked in vain in Ireland for the promotion of Roman Catholics to any offices of honour or S ate.—( Hear, hear.) Even if they were offered, he doubted that any man would accept office from any member of the rresent Government.—( Hear, hear.) Every wish of the Irish people had been met with the statement, that concession had reached its ulGunatum—( Hear, he •r)—and was it sur prising that such things had taken place in Ireland?—( Hear, hear.) Or that the people should say, if the House of Com mons would not redress their grievances, they must look to themselves, and consider the Government the criminal.— ( Hear, hear.) He would give credit to the Government in their proceedings, that they had a wish to vindicate the law, but in doing so, their first act ought. to have been to take care that they should act with impartiality. Had such been the case in the late trials ? Certainly not ; Catholics had been excluded from the jury, and Tory spies had been employed.— ( Hear, hear.) The leople of Ireland believed that they had been struck off the jury list because they were Catholics, and that a very different result would have taken place in the late trials if only one Catholic had been on the jury.—( Cheers. ) If they imprisoned Mr. O'Connell, did the Government sup pose that others would not spring up in his place ? If they imprisoned Mr. O'Connell, they might find the necessity next week of a fresh prosecution. By imprisoning Mr. O'Connell, they would be only adding fuel to the fl tine of agitation. He could assure the Government that the followers of Mr. O'Con nell had not diminished in numbers. He. could assure them that there was an organised system of agitation in Ireland, which coercion could never put down. The Governmert were struggling against the repeal agitation ; and yet they were pursuing that course which was most likely to keep it up. The agitation would never he put down by prosecutions, but it might he put down by justice.—( hear, hear.) Let them do justice to Ireland, and they wool, restore that country to peace; but as long as they turned a deaf ear to its just tls. mands, so long would there be discontent and disaffection. The cqnsequence of the present state of In land vt as the depre ciation of properly and the stagnation of trade. By increasing the tranquillity of Ireland, they thereby increased its prosperity. One of the great causes of discontent in Ireland was the limited franchise at present possessed by the Irish people. They re quired, too, an addition to the number of Irish Members. They should be more proportioned to the number of English Mem bers in that House. With respect to the landlord and tenant question, he was glad that a Commission had been appointed to inquire into the subject ; but he could not but regret that rrsons from the tenantry had not been chosen to form a por tion of that Commission. At present it was a one-sided Com mission, and could not be looked upon by the Irish tenantry but as a landlords' Commission. There wore subjects for the consideration of such a Commission, into which it could not fairly enter without the assistance of persons who were tenants themselves. The present system of education in Ire land was extremely defective, and reform in that respect was very much required. He thought the grant to the College of Maynooth ought to be largely increased, and that the Univer sity ought to be very much extended ; to which University, he thought Catholics ought to be admitted, or that a Roman Ca tholic university should be established. There was one ques tion that he had not yet touched upon, and that was the ques tion of the Church of Ireland. It might be said that he as a Roman Catholic Member, would violate his oath by inter fering in such a question. He weuld appeal to the Right lion. Baronet who had introduced the Catholic oath, as to what manner he intended that oath should be observed. Did he intend that that oath should allow the Roman Catholic Members to support the Noble Lord who had commenced the debate, or did he intend that by that oath the Catholic Mem bers were precluded from interfering in ecclesiastical questions ? He would not do anything to the Protestant Church that he would not do to the Catholic. Ile would be for improving the condition of both. Why should a Roman Catholic be re quired to give stronger testimony in favour of the Protestant Church than Protestants themselves—than those who sat on the same side of the House with him? Did the Constitution debar them from meddling with Church questions? If so, then his constituents would say to him—" You shall not re p. esent us—you are curbed and fettered—you would net half represent us. We will have a Protestant, nut a Catholic." Why, if such a principle were acted upon, the Catholics of Ire land would have reason to say they were not half emanci pated. Were seven millions of people to be kept in constant disaffection? It was useless to think of effecting any concilia tion by pensioning. The Catholic clergy of Ireland would not receive Government styport.—( Hear, hear.) A short time ago, when he ( Mr. Wyse) happened to be in Dublin, there was a solemn enunciation, on the part of the Chatholic hierarchy of Ireland, not to receive anything in the shape of salary or endowment. The causes of this were manifest. The Catholic clergy must have deeply felt the as pe.sions that have been cast upon them by a large number of the people of this country—they had been slandered in the grossest manner ; and it was not only Irish feeling, but the feeling of human nature, that they should be filled with re sentment. The Catholic clergy were not hostile to British connection, and when Lord Normanby was Lord Lieutenant. there, they showed the utmost disposition to assist the authori ties in restoring and preserving tranquillity. The Noble Lord said in the course of his speech that he saw no reason why the Catholic clergy should not be selected from the humbler classes of the Irish people—neither did he (Mr. Wyse). On the contrary, he would prefer that they were selected from the humbler classes, for they would understand the condition ot the poor better, would sympathise in their distresses, and be more alive to their wants and wishes. The attachment of the Catholic peasant to his priest was almost proverbial—the at tachment of the priest to his flock—they had suffered together —they had been identified since the days when Catholic clergymen were transported to the \Vest Indies for their profession—when a premium had been offered for their heads, and a still larger premium for their abnegation of the creed of their forefathers. He had no wish for the ascendancy of his creed—every good Catholic would dislike it—but they wanted impartiality in the administration of the laws, and equality of civil rights with their Protestant fellow-subjects. Was not th• present condition of Ireland a disgrace to England? And was it not at present a source of great uneaFiness to the peop l e of this country ? It was a just principle of retribution, that no country could injure another without being ultimately affected by those injuries itself. There was Ireland in the midst of poverty and discontent—at all times and in all sea sons--there she was, miserable and afflicted, whilst they were rolling in the midst of luxury. She was like the Roman slave, continually reminding them of their mortality. England might boast of carrying her commerce and introducing civilization to the remotest parts of the globe—she might be the mistress of the ocean, and the most prosperous of nations. She would be the friend of the slave far away, and the enemy to oppression in forei.in countries ; but as long as Ireland continued as she was—as long as Eng land neglected to tranquillise that country by healing and conciliating measures—as long as there was domestic discon tent—no prosperity, however great, could be of long standing. The cure was simple.—let them administer to Ireland those laws which they so much valued themselves, and have them administered in the same spirit with which they were ad ministered in this country—let them not coerce but conciliate, and let the Government a second time imitate 1829, by doing justice to Ireland.—( Cheers. ) Sir J. GRAHAM did not complain of the time consumed in the two speeches he had heard. The magnitude and the immense importance of the interest involved fully justified the length ot those discussions. The House, he was sure, would feel that the task which he undertook in following the Noble Lord, and the Right Hon. Gentleman was a very difficult one. He would not trespass on any more of their time than was absolutely necessary, but candidly state the case on the part of the Go vernment. Before proceeding now to notice the general topics of these speeches, he should notice a matter which was per sonal to himself. He could not help lamenting that upon this fatal Irish feeling be first parted from the Noble Lord—on the same feeling they had afterwards met in hostile array, and in this feeling he feared that, after the expressions used by the Noble Lord, they would never again unite. What had fallen from the Noble Lord had sufficiently convinced him that their opinions regarding Ireland differed very widely. In one thing he cordially agreed vvith the Noble Lord, who said that no sovereign had ever been more intent upon lromoting the contentment of the people of Ire and without distinction of party or creed. He had the greatest satisfaction in stating that all the instructions which he had received from her Majesty led him to entirely concur with the Noble Lord, arid to believe that the Noble Lord was perfectly accurate and correct. On another point also he agreed with the Noble Lord; he passed a glowing pane gyric on Mr. Fox, in which he entirely concurred. Mr. Fox said that military government and military executions were not suited to Ireland. What was the policy of the Govern ment towards Ireland ? What was the conduct of the Govern ment which he was called upon to defend ? Was it in favour of a coercive Bill? Did he stand up to advocate trial by court-martial? It was not military law nor military execu tions he was called upon to defend. He stood up to advocate the propriety of governing Ireland according to the established laws of this country—the trial by jury ; and it was those laws which, he was happy to say, had triumphed in that country, and which he stood up to vindicate. He desired to imitate as much as possible the temper of the Hon. Member for aterford, which was quite unobjectionable—( Hear, hear) —and well worthy of imitation. The House would remember that the Noble Lord had said that her Majesty's Government were the real criminals, anti as they stood there charged in this manner, he trusted the house would give them a patient hearing. The Noble Lord had, unintentionally no doubt, spoken of the past policy which had been pursued towards Ireland, and of that which he supposed they would adopt for the future, in a manner which did not make the distinction between the two sufficiently obvious. He would divide the subject into two leading branches, and first he would speak of the conduct which had been pursued recently by the Government, and speak of the more general policy hereafter. He would gladly go back to the period to which the Noble Lord had referred, but his duty at present was to defend the conduct which had been pursued by the Go.. vernment. He was surprised at the manner in which the Noble Lord had spoken of the Government of Ireland by Lord Wellesley and Lord Anglesea.—( Hear, hear.) Surely, the Noble Lord remembered that he himself was a Member of the Government at that titne—(Cheers)—that he had adopted their policy and shared in their responsibility.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord had complained that the union had yielded no fruits. At the time that he had been the colleague of the Noble Lord in office, great and important measures had been carried, and which he believed had been productive of great advantages to Ireland. When Lord Grey came into power, emancipation had been carried. He would observe in passing that from the time that he (Sir J. Graham) had left Lord Grey's Government, the interval was very shoe. before the re spected head of the Government left it aisn ' and however glowing was the eulogium whi c h th e Noble Lord had passed on Mr. Fox, Lord Grey was as worthy of it, and he thought that the Noble Lord would agree with him in opinion upon that point..—(Loud cheers.) Was it contended that Lord Grey had passed no measures of a liberal nature for Ireland? He was satisfied that Lord Grey would not have held office for five years within four months without giving effect to that liberal policy with regard to Ire land, for the sake of which he had sacrificed office for so many years.—( Cheers.) He would state the measures which they had passed. They had enlarged the franchise. They had es tablished a system of national edv7.ation. They had passed the Church Temporalities Act—an Act which he believed eon duced to the stability of the Established Church, by enlarging the basis, while it took away Scorn the capital.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lcrd admitted that the pol.ey of Lord Grey's Go vernment had been conceived 'n a spirit of kindness towards the Catholics, anti that there h d been a wish on their part to admit Catholics to the benefit of a full participation of all ad vantages.—( Cheery.) The Noble Lord had said that when the late Government had left °tree, they had left the country in a state of tranquillity, and 'hat the repeal agitation was quite insignificant. Now he 1 rd extracted from the Pilot newspaper a list of the repeal neetings held during 1840. On July '2l, 1840, a repeal meeting had been held at Castlebar, which had been attended by eightess , RS • an Catholic clergy men, and several gentlemen. On the '26th of August there had been a repeal breakfast at Mallow, which had been attended by 200 persons, and in the same month there had been a public repeal meeting, attended by 10,0,0 persons. On the 20th there was a meeting at Skibbereen, attended by several thou sand persons ; and during that year there were meetings at Kilkenny, attended by 200,000; at Drogheda, by 60,000; at Waterford, by 20,000 ; at Dublin, by 6,000 ; and at Maynooth. by 10,000 persons. In 1841 there had been meetings at Bel fast, in the Curragh of Kildare, attended by 80,000 people; and on the 18th of August, 1841, just before Ministers went out of office, there was a repeal meeting at Drogheda, attended by 25,000 people, which was the state of affairs antecedent to the present Government coming into power. Considering the present position of Mr. O'Connell, he would not allude to the speeches which had been made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on those occasions ; but he would state generally that he had expressed himself with the same zeal and energy which had characterised his former speeches. The Noble Lord had alluded to the jury law, and, as it appeared to him, had confounded the lass regulating common juries, with that by which special juries were regulated. With regard to common juries the Noble Lord had eulogised the rule which had been established by Mr. Justice Perrin. An How. Masieett —By Sir M. O'Loghlin. Sir J. GRAII SM thought it was by Mr. Justice Perrin ; but it mattered not which of them had established the rule, for the Crown ordering common jurors to stand bye, that rule re mained in operation, and had never been varied from in the slightest degree. To say that the Crown should not, on any occasion, order a juror to stand bye, would be an absolute denial of justice. The calm and temperate manner in which the Attorney-General for England conducted Crown prosecu tions had met with general approval, and yet, at the recent trials at Cardiff, A panel of seventy-five jurors had been ex• haunted by the challenges of the prisoners, and of the Crown, those of the prisoners being limited by low to twenty. The power should be exercised with justice and discretion, but it was necessary that it should be possessed by the Crown. The Noble Lord seemed to labour under some misapprehension with regard to the difference between ordering a common juror to stand bye and striking a special jury; he was not aware that the rule regulating the ordering a common juror to stand bye, had been introduced by Sir M. O'Loglilin, but the striking a special jury was regulated by Act of Parliament— that Act having been brought into this House by Sir M. O'Loghlin, at the time that the Noble Lord was in office. The special jury list contained the names of 716 special jurors. Ile would, in passing, observe on the fact of certain names having been omitted from that list. The Noble Lord had stated that sixty names had been omitted, and he relied or making that statement upon a statement which had been made in the Queen's Bench. He (Sir James Graham) believed that that statement was a gro,s exaggeration. Not above one half that number of names hail been omitted, and no one could contend that the Government was at all responsible for the omission. His Right Hon. Friend, the Recorder for Dublin, who was present, would, doubtless, in the course of the debate, give some explanation on tne subject. Ile deeply r •gretted the omission, and he agreed with the Noble Lord in expressing his sorrow at finding that that circumstance should have created a prejudice, and have given even an ap pearance of unfairness to the administration of justice.— ( Hear, hear.) But as the number of names omitted did not amount to thirty, and that the names of Protestants as well as of Catholics were among those omitted, it was hardly possible to imagine that as forty- eight names were chosen by ballot out of the list of 716, that the emission of those names would have affected the composition of the jury in any material degree. According to the Act of Parliament, the parties were to strike off the names alternately, and if there was anything re markable in the Crown striking off the names of Roman Catholics, it should be recollected that the traversers had not struck off the names of any Roman Catholics. The case, as originally represented to the public, had been that ten Roman Catholics had been struck off by the Crown, not be cause they were repealers, but because they were Roman Catholics. He was sorry to see that that respectable h b ff o i, d l y tt . hheu t s he English Catholics, had resented this striking o jury as an insult offered to themselves, and given to what was really merely a matter of political difference a character of religious strife. —( Hear, hear.) He regretted this exceedingly, for he entertained the greatest per sonal respect for many of the gentlemen who had attended the meeting which had been called to express the feelings of the English Catholics on that occasion. —(Cheers.) It had been stated that these persons had not been members of the Repeal Association, and the traversers, who of course had access to the hook', had been challenged to verify their statement by affidavit. This challenge had been accepted, but the affidavit had not been filed until towards the close of the proceedings. That affidavit was most important—it disposed of eight out of the ten cases. ( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now he could not understand how the striking off the names of those persons could be considered as an impeachment of their fidelity to the sanctity of an oath. If, in a fox-hunting county he should bring an action of trespass against the master of the hounds, of course, his solicitor would take care to exclude all the members of the hunt from the jury. —(Cheers.) If he brought an action for tithes, of course, he should have little chance of success if his solicitor did not strike off all lay impros priators from the list of the jury.—( Cheers. ) They did not question their honour, they only questioned the strong precon ceived opinions and feelings.—( Hear, hear.) He should cer tainly be astonished if any one would have the boldness to stand up in that House and contend that those Roman Catholics who were members of the Association ought to have been re , ained on the jury.—(Cheers.) He would now consider the eases of those two who were not, according to the statements of the affi davit, members of the Association, although they were Roman Catholics. These persons were Mr. Michael Dunn arid Mr. Hendric. Now, with regard to Michael Dunn, it appeared that he resided in St. Patrick's ward, Dublin. Now, there were four persons of that name, three of whom had signed the v eTrayr Michaelanri w in ho st h . had Patrick's si raes ward. Dunn himself , in his affidavi t, n ega tive d the fact that he aresqtuhiesitoiffioncefrosrofeathlleingG the e r n m r e e p n e t al believed, n:lee t meeting t h i a s t one e seal of m t e h e o t s in e g aDunn, requisitionfhe bfio.araiceari,linwaasa was a member of the Repeal Association, but he did not nega tive the fact that he had signed a requisition for calling a re peal meeting. Now, with regard to the composition of the jury, he would observe that the Government might, had they' chosen, have tried the traversers before a common jury, and in that case the traversers weuld not have bet n entitled to chal lenge a single man, whilst the Crown might have ex ercised its Ixerogative of ordering jurors to stand aside. They did not like to act in such a way, because they thought it would be unfair towards the traversers; and they thought it right that they should be tried by a special jury, which would place both parties in the same position.—(Hear, hear.) There were forty-eight persons drawn from the general panel, which were reduced to twenty-four, from which twelve were selected. It was not only in their power to strike off some of the names, but it was imperative on them, and it was obvious to common sense that those whom it was likely must have been prejudiced as being members of the Repeal Association, were the persons who ought to have been struck off.—( Hear, hear.) But he would go further, and say that the instructions of the Govern ment were not that Roman Catholics should be struck off etc Roman Catholics, but only to strike them off under such cir cumstances as would induce them to strike off any other per sons.—( Hear, hear.) He was sure that hi s Noble Friend would confirm his statement, and he was satisfied that these instructions had been fulfilled to the best of his Noble Friend's judgment. Thus, nine out of the ten of the cases were disposed of.—( Hear, hear.) The tenth person was Mr. Hen dric, and he could assure the House that he was believed to he a Protestant when he was struck off. He was struck off for reasons quite independent of his religious opinions. It would not become him to state what these reasons were, and if he were asked to state them he would not do so, because he would consider it to be a direliction of his duty. He had now dealt with this question—( Hear, hear)—and he could assure the House, and could conscientoualy state that nothing was so opposed to the wishes and feelings of her Majesty's Govern ment as the exclusion of Catholics on account 01 their religion. On the contrary, positive instructions had been given to avoid prejudices could be more th an is d su n b e j t e w et ith n s o tanding the prejudices which With regard to what the Noble Lord unfounded. —( llear. ) had such b eaenne r x a c i l s u e s d i o o n n , had said respecting their not interfering before, he could assure the House that throughout the last session of Par liament her Majesty's Government was unwilling to interfere with the right of petition. They regarded the meetings in Ireland with the greatest anxiety. He would not say that they were unlawful or lawful, but they went to the very verge of the law. Violent language had been used at them. There was marching in order and military music—( Hear, hear) —which they believed were outside the law. The reason why they did not act before was, that if they instituted a prosecution for individual acts in some obscure corner of Ireland, no moral impression would be produced by a conviction,— ( Hear, hear.) They had an instance of this before. Lord Grey's Government instituted a prosecution against Mr. Bar rett, for a '.er which appeared in his paper. A conviction was obtained ; and although Mr. O'Connell's name was ap pended to the letter, he did not own himself to be the author. Mr. Barrett was convicted, and went to prison. An opinion might be entertained whether he was handsomely treated on that occasion.—( Hear, hear.) But no moral effect whatever was produced. Mr. O'Connell himself said that it was a mean and shabby proceeding thus to attack individuals, and, upon reflection, he ( Sit J. Graham) thought he was right in that observation.—(Laughter.) The object of the present Go vernment was to obtain the punishment of the "head and front " of the offenders, arid, by pursuing the course they did to allow the whole scheme to develope itself—they obtained a conviction by a jury fairly constituted, under the direction of an unanimous bench, in a trial at bar, and in the metro polis of Ireland, and to which the eyes net only of Ireland but of Great Britain were directed. It had been acknowledged that the Attorney-General conducted the case with great temper ; they had the assertion of Mr. Whiteside, who distin guished himself as one of the counsel fur the traversers—that on the whole the Attorney-General conducted the case with great fairness. They were urgent in pressing the case unti, the traversers pleaded. They made various motions for the purpose of delay, which were resisted by the Crown, but after they had once pleaded, a reasonable time had been allowed the traversers.—( Hear, hear.) They had waited for the revision of the jury list, with regard to which such compliments had been paid to his Right Hon. Friend ( Mr. Shaw ) for the impartiality which he displayed. Had they proceeded in an opposite direction, and proceeded against, the traversers for attending illegal meetings, it was clear from the ver dict of the jury that they would not have obtained a conviction. He would not say that those meetings wi re ille gal. They were held for a particiilar purpose— he was about to say for the purpose of intimidating the Govern ment, and to force Parliament into a breach of national faith.—(Cheers.) But the jury thought that though those meetings were riot illegal in themselves, they became so from combination. The Noble Lord had spoken of the law of con spiracy, which he compared to constructive treason. He said it was a novel law. He (Sir J. Graham) denied that there was any novelty in the law of conspiracy ; but if there were any novelty in ',it, he contended that they had to deal with a new state of facts, which made it justifiable for thorn to have re course to it. One of the most, sagacious of living men fixed his attention on a terse saying of a celebrated female writer—The Duke of 'Wellington called les attention to a pas sage in a work of Madame de Steel :—" On ne conspire pas sur la place." In these times Leaguers meet in theatres—(Loud cheers) --Chartists meet in market places, and conspirators hneet in conciliation halls to disseminate sedition amongst the multitude.—( Loud cheers.) He denied that this was a new law, but even if it were, the circumstances of the case rendered it necessary. Again, it had been said that in the issue of the proclamation, prohibiting the meeting at Clontarf, great carelessness and want of prudence marked their course. The Noble Lord passed a high eulogy upon the exertions of Mr. O'Connell to stop the meeting, and he reminded the House of the opposition he gave to Chartism and trades unions. Ile agreed with the Noble Lord in the merit due to Mr. O'Connell for the steps which he took to stop the meeting at Clontarf. He did not wish to aggravate the ease against, him, but all those points had been urged in his defence, and they were proved by the Crown to be part of the means by which the conspiracy had been proved. the Noble Lord in more than one passage of his speech spoke with Christian forgiveness, and in high praise of Mr. O'Connell ; and he spoke of Lord Lyndhurst in terms of a very opposite description. "I am the colleague of Lord Lyndhurst—( Loud ironical cheering from the Opposition benches ) I am his colleague.—(Continued cheering from the same quarter,) I am his friend (said the Right Hon. Gentleman, with vehe smheonuelde )h —and beseuesrmPriinsgedhi s that the o No spe b a l k e f Lord Lord Chancellor of England in the terms which he did— (Loud cheers.) You may talk of your high birth and of aris tocratic feelings." The Lord Chancellor of England was a man who from his first entrance into public life had risen by the exhibition of pre-eminent talents to the first place at the bar. THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUA'RY 14, 1844 • —(Loud cheers.) In politics, it was true, he had c:eated I some enemies, though not very many, in this country, where he was best known—(Cheers)—but no man had adorned the judgment-seat with brighter faculties ; he possessed the highest order of talents ; his integrity was incorruptible ; his intellect was first-rate, and he thought it hard that a man who had risen to pre-eminence by means so honourable, should he attacked for party purposes in terms so severe as those used by the Noble Lord. He was sure that Lord Lyndhurst would not have spoken of any political opponent in such terms in his absence.—( Loud ch•.ers. ) Hut was this all that was unge nerous ? 't he Noble Lord relied on the use of some particular expressions attributed to Lord Lyndhurst ; and he was be. frayed into saying that it was not for his talents, that it was not for his faculties, that it was not for his judicial knowledge, that it was not for his virtue, that it was not for his integrity— he was raised to the woolsack, but that his Right Hon. Friend recommended bins to it on account of his hostility to Ireland. —(Cheers.) He was sure that upon more calm reflection the Noble Lord would not have used those expressions. Certain expressions had been attributed to Lord Lyndhurst in the House of Lords, which, within five or six days after they had been used, he positively denied—( No, no, and Hear, hear) — n the sense in which the were taken. Lord Lyndhurst used those expressions in the presence of the First Lord of the Treasury ( Lord Alelbous.ne), and in the presence of the President of the Council ( Lord Lansdowne), and they never commented upon those expressions, which it would have been their duty to do if they had under stood them in the sense attributed to them. He would nose pass from this subject by assuring the Noble Lord that he heard him speak of Lord Lyndhurst in the terms wi , ich he did, with the greatest pain. He would now return to the meeting at Clontarf, from which he hail digressed, and he begged of the Hausa to attend to the dates, which were material to a right un der landing of the case. The requisition for convening the meeting was signed on the 27th of September. end on Satur day the 29th a proclamation was issued of a very peculiar character. The Lord-Lieutenant was then in England fur the benefit of his health, and his attention was directed to the proclamation. Mr. O'Connell had often before alluded to the display of inrantry attending the repeal meetings, he said that they were superior to those which the Duke of Wellington commanded at the battle of Waterloo, and better than those whom Napoleon led to Moscow. But in the requisition for the Clontarf meeting, allusion had been made for the first time to repeal cavalry. He would not read the proclam dion.—( Cries of "Do ; do." The it glit Honours ble Gentleman then read the proclamation convening the meeting. ) He would now call the attention of the House to the state of Ireland at that time. Immense multitudes had assembled ; those violent assemblages had increased. There were the meet ings at Mullaghmast, there were other important meetings at. the Coneiliation Hall. Then at last came the proclamation with respect to the it eeting at Clontarff.—( Hear, hear.) It had been asserted that this was to be the last meeting. Why, what was the fact? Why, they had the words of 3lr. O'Con nell himself, dated at Mullaghsnast, in which he stated that five or six meetings were yet to come, and that the do nothing policy of the Government would not heal the sores of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) At this time the proclama mation issued. Upon that event taking place, he (sir James Graham) summoned the Lord Chancellor of Ireland and the Lord Lieutenant and the different members of the Privy Council. This was on the 9th of October. They deliberated on the proclamation, they reconsidered it, and they thought it was necessary the military proclamation should be withdrawn. —( Hear, hear. ) At least that the word " group" should be substituted for " troop." Mr. WALLACE—WiII the Hon. Baronet state to the House the new proclamation SirJ. GRAHAM—Certainly. The Right Hon. Baronet then read the substitution for the proclamation, several parts of which created considerable laughter in the House. The Go vernment then deliberated whether the altered proclamation gad materially changed the facts. It was thought it had not, and it was then considered necessary that the Lord Lieutenant and the Lord Chancellor, who were at that time in London, should proceed immediately to Dublin, having authoriiy, imme diately after their arrival, to do whatever they might think ne cessary. The Lord Chancellor and the Lord Lieutenant ar rived in Dublin on the Friday, and after weighing the whole proclamation—a proclamation that had beer, posted round Dublin for 30 miles—a proclamation which was known at four o'clock on Saturday afternoon, they thought it their duty to adopt the course they had done. He was happy to say—and he did so with the greatest pleasure— that Mr. O'Connell had used his utmost exertions, and those exertions had been eminently successful in prevent ing the loss of life.—(Great cheering.) The Government was convinced that the simplest mode of arriving at the truth was the course they had adopted.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for London had asked what had been the result of the proceeding of the Government ? He would tell that Noble Lord, that advantages of the utmost importance and benefits of the greatest extent had already taken place. There had been peace in Ireland for the last three months.—( Hear. ) There had been an iwsreaae of employment; besides that, it had been proved, that without the extreme stretch of the law, they had overcome a most dangerous principle.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord had said that the Government had occupied Ireland by military force.—( Hear, hear.) Most certainly did he say that they had done so, when it was attempted to ' wrest Ireland from her Majesty by foree.—( Hear, hear.) Hcr Majesty's Government had been convinced that. there was a design to tamper with the military—( Hear) and could the Noble Lord scy, under such circumstances, that the Government was not bound to take the precaution they had done ?—( Hear, hear.) What had been the conduct of the Government upon the subject? Why, until the month of March, so far from adding to the army in Ireland they were reducing it.—( Hear, hear.) He had a return, which had been moved for in the other House of Parliament, and that showed k N a o n w d , fiolne thein Ireland r j f a r n o n u s a 1. 1 7 8 , 30 184 T, t l h B e 4 r e 4. was-- Hreaanrk, h tl e w ar r . ) and file in Ireland amounting to '21,257.—( Hear.) In 1833, and 1834, what was the state of the rank and file ? Why, in 1833, it was 23,928—(Hear)—in 1834 it was 23,844, and between the Ist of September, 1841, and the 10th of March 1813, during which the " monster" meetings began, the force in Ireland was reduced by the withdrawal of two regi ments of cavalry and twelve battalions of infantry, leaving four battalions of infantry and one regiment of cavalry. Mr. WALLACE wished to know what the numbers were in 1841-1643. Sir J. GRAHAM said that in 1841 the numbers were 14,687 ; and in 1843, 14,406.—(11ear, hear.) He ( Sir J. Graham) must admit, with the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, that it was an unwise policy to hold Ire land to this country by military force. Such a course could never be looked upon as sound policy. He would now glance at the measures taken by the Government, and those which they were now preparedto take. The Noble Lord and the Right lion. Gentleman had gone upon most erroneous premises, and they were unable to discover any thing very new with respect to Ire land. As to the tenure of land, the Commission issued by the Government had touched upon every point to which the Noble Lord and the lion. Member for Waterford had ad verted.— ( Hear, hear.) He was supported by all authority that the law of ejectment was beneficial to Ireland—that the law of plantations was equally had proved highly beneficial. Th ese su bj ec t s , h owev er, it was contended on the part of th e G overnment s h ou ld un d ergo re vision, necessaryancl t hat thethey law should subletting m a de. Thr s at i et o hi n i rir , ooe s pns n op. and Member ei a ti o n o b y it eni alteration t rf e leoa r a: a s.l t e v i o n t f a n i l ee 7i rn n f ( d u, rl number r b d sea a ri n dn i tsi tenantstipendiary enh (ei the arr y Majesty'smagistrates Noble Go vernment had reduced the number of tipendiary magistrates. Now, he begged the House to attend to the facts he was about to read. The number of stipendiary magistrates in 1838, 1839, 1840, and 1811, under the admiristration of the Noble 59 the Governme nt This was took at a a votel,ery for curious Lord opposite, amounted t o 5 9. In the estimates f or 1841, 2 psol of July, 1841.—( H ear, hear.) It was then that the Noble Lord and his coll eagues bethought themse l ves th a t the time had arrived when it was expedient to add to t h e num ber stipendiarysoled, na mely, magistratesin on the i h re e la of stipendiary magistrates, having had for four years only 59. On the 15th of June the addition commenced, for on that day a another a r d e d si t g t two were added. On th e 28 t h of July two more were a dd e d, an d on the 6th of August one more Was added, an d on t h e ver y day seas i n o e n d w t a h s e m ad: to of the office nce bnteor. the course of two m on th s seven new magistrates wereappo i n t e d. Now, the case would not be pe r f ec t if h e did no t contrast it with the conduct of her Maj es t y ' s present Government . They did not consider it neces s a r y to maintain the appointmen t s o f those seven magistrates, hut as soon as vacancies occurre d, four of nhle In Majesty's hands, n d Melbourne s, that Lord these gentlemen were appointed to the situations, and these gentlemen were firm supporters of the late Government. The Hon. Member for Waterford had laid some stress en the ques tion of national education. He (Sir James Graham) had to state to the House that it was the intention of her Majesty's Government, in the estimates of the p res ent year, to propose a con•iderable increase to th e grant, for national education. It was also intended by her Majesty's Government to place the Roman Catholics of Ireland on the same footing with respect to charitable bequests as the Roman Catholics and Protestant Dissenters of England. He wished before he sat down, to allude to the question of the franchise in Ireland. It was the intention of her Majesty's Governmentt. to introduce a new Registration Act for Irela and to propose an extension of the county franchise. It was the intention of the Government to deal in some mea sure with the franchise of cities and towns. the i present tted t o pay any one of the little local taxes for which he wa m s law any person was deprived of his franchise if he In Dublin there were no less than twenty such local taxes, and if a person were to omit the payment of one of them, he would be liable to lose his franchise. This was vexati ous, and n liable. after all was an insufficient, security. It was no test of solvency. But since the passing of that Act, the Poor-law Act had been passed, and poor• rates established. It was proposed by the Government, that for the maintenance of the franchise it should be necessary to pay the borough rates, the jury cess, and the poor-rates only. The Noble Lord had stated that his Noble Friend ( Lord Stanley) had described the Bill of Lord Morpeth as one that had been introduced under false colours. It was true that his Noble Friend had made use of such an expression, but he did so in reference to the terms of the Bill, as it was stated that it was a Bill to define the franchise ; whereas it was not only a Bill to define the franchise, but also materially to alter it. It, was on this ground that his Noble Friend had said the Bill lit.d been intro duced under false colours. The Noble Lord opposite had alluded to the judicial appointments under her Majesty's present Government, and had stated that it was impossible to make proper appointments from the Conservative members of the bar in Ire land. Now, what was the fact? Who were the e.ounsel engaged by the traversers in the late trials?—( Hear, hear.) an(dSi was ther James He taught there were seven or eight c ounsel e mployed, and, with th e exception of Mr. Pigot, Mr. Shed, and M r . M ona h an, were Aoorewasa .er P em ro e t n e t s . i tan ie Protestant, Ce So o o v r a - t G ie en s r r f il l te late Gm o Graham) now approached a most i mportant subject. Ills i t r v Right Hon. Friend, the First Lord of the Treasury, had been asked to put a construction upon the oath taken by the Catholic Members. Ile hoped his Right lion. Friend would not an saver that question. It was not an oath imposed by him, but an oath imposed by the Legislature. Ile ( Sir J. Graham) did not think there was any advantage to be derived in a discus sion as to the construction of an oath. When the Legisla ture gave the Roman Catholics a full participation in the rights conferred by the Constitutio n it gave it in consideration only of their taking that oath ; and having done so full confidence was placed in them by the Legislature. He would, for a moment, turn to the observations of the Noble Lord with respect to the Established Church. As he under stood the meaning of the Noble Lord, it was that an equality with respect to religion should be observed in Ireland. In passing, he could not abstain from saying that the plain object of this motion, was to take the reins of power out of the hands of her Majesty's present Government. He imagined, under these circumstances, that the Noble Lord might have stated some distinct policy on a matter of such importance —(Cheers and ironical cheers. ) Was the Noble Lard prepared to propose a system of perfect equality? How were they to make that qua lit) ? Were they prepared to endow the Roman Catholics in the same manner a, members of the Established Church ? He thought that the Presbyterians and the Protestant Dissenters of this country would not very well like to be taxed for sech a purpose. The Nob!e Lord had himself deprecated the voluntary principle. The division of the revenues of the Church be tween Catholics and rrotcstants would be the source of endless strife and implacable animosity.—( Hear, hear.) Ile was sorry to have occupied the attention of the House for so long a time. With respect to the Protestant Church in Ireland, he did not approve of any of the nostrums which had been offered on the other side of the House for its maintenance. The measures which had been suggested were inconsistent with the principle which regulated the Protestant ,State of Eng. land, and which was decidedly favourable to a Protestant Church.—( Hear, hear.) That Church had been established by the Reformation—had been confirmed by the Revolution— and had been guar an t ee d b y t h e A ct of Settlement. The Act of Union had strenwhened the establishment of that Church, and it should not be overthrown by a Repeal Association, or by a body of conspira'ors, such as had recently bean convicted in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, from Colonel Sibthorp.) He had now gone through all those topics of the speeches of the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman. and though he had touched upon them but imperfectly, yet, still he had stated his opinions candidly and fairly, and no man could say that he had not spoken frankly.—( Hear, hear. ) He could not say that the Noble Lord, in seeking to displace the present Government, had been equally candid and explicit.—( Hear, hear.) If the House thought her Majesty's Government had acted unwisely in strengthening the hands of the executive in maintaining the laws—why let them so declare by their votes that they were in favour of the policy of the Noble Lord ; but if they approved of the mariner in which the Government had discharged their duty to their Sovereign and the country— why th,n let the House by a decisive vote negative the motion of the Noble Lord.—( Cheers. ) An Ho N. MEMBER then moved the adjournment of the debate, which was agreed to. The Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock. ROUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 13. Their Lords Lips met at Five o'Clock. TITHE COMAIUTATION. Lord LYTTELTON presented a petition from the Rev. Charles Miller, complaining of the provisions of the Tithe Commutation Act, as injurious to the clergy. EARL DUNDONALD'S INVENTIONS. Lcrd BROUGHAM gave notice that he should on Thurs day next bring under the consideration of their Lordships the inventions of a Noble Friend of his, Earl Dundonald. The Noble Earl wished to represent to the House the great expense he had been put to in perfecting these inventions. OATHS OF ROIIAN CATHOLICS. Lord STOURTON gave notice that on the day most conve nient to their Lordships, either on Friday or Monday, he pur posed to bring before their Lordships the construction of the Boman Catholic oath, and he stated to their Lordships what he conceived to be the fair and honest meaning and construction o 1 that oath. Ile trusted he should not trespass too long on their Lordships.' time if he was permitted for a few momenta to call their attention to s ,me circumstances connected with that oath. He did not at all mean to try to influence or act upon that opinion of their Lordships; but still he should say that he thought there was quite enough to warrant him in bringing the subject before the House; and he therefore on Friday should call the attention of their Lordships to the mode in which the Roman Catholic oaths were constructed. The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition, praying that the House would adopt such means as would secure the spiritual education of the humbler classes. Lord BEAUAIONT wished to know when it would suit the Government to bring forward the measure relating to the con solidation of the turnpike-trusts in England ? The Duke of \VELLING lON said that the matter would be brought before the House either on Thursday or Friday. Earl FORTESCUE presented a petition from Belfast, com plaining of the present state of Ireland. The petitioners stated that they apprehended civil war, and that though the use of power might be effectual for the suppression of disorder, it could not remove discontent. They also complaired of the inefficient state of the represen tation of Ireland, as compared with that of England, In conclusion, they prayed the House to adopt such measures as were best calculated to avert the dangers now impending, and to pi - event the recurrence thereof. THE STATE OF IRELAND. The Marquis of NORMANBY, on rising to call the atten tion of the House to this subject, said—There were subject• of such paramount and urgent importance in the minds of a speaker, that they c )mpletely banished all considerations of self. It was this alone which had induced him to encounter the diffi culty, and to incur the responsibility, of bringing before their Lordships a subject of such great magnitude as that of which he had given notice. He entertained feelings of such inten sity as to the present danger and as to the future prospects of Ireland, that whatever other disqualification he might have, he should at least address them with that earnestness which was, he believed, the best passport to their Lordships' attention. But he had another inducement to address their Lordships on this subject; that even now, in the midst of all the excite ment and agitation—to which he was known to be opposed— be daily received proofs from different parts of the country of the kindly recollection retained by a kind-hearted people of one whom they truly believed to have had their interest at heart. No one would deny that the present state of that country imperiously called for the immediate attention of Par liament.—( Hear.) One year since there was an agitation in that country which the moderate in Ireland regarded with disfavour, and in this country was opposed with a unanimity almost unparalleled. It was headed by. an individual who, whatever might be his claims to the gratitude of posterity, had rendered himself, by many of his proceedings, dis tasteful to the large majority in this country. What was the state of things now ? The repeal of the union was not one degree less impracticable, but men's minds were diverted from that simple issue to the canvassing freely and the criticising unfavourably much of the conduct of her Ma jesty's Government. In the year 1829, when int ro d uc i ng t h e Roman Catholic Relief Bill, the present Prime Minister, in alluding to the state of Ireland, said that 7,000,000 of Ca tholi, a were united to a man. He was far from believing that they were united on this subject, though they appeared to be united against her Majesty's Government. —( Hear.) They were not more favourable to repeal, but their condition was such that he was justified in calling upon their Lordships for inquiry into the subject. With reference to this he need only allude to the petition which had just been presented by his Noble Friend from certain Protestants in Belfast. lie had reason to believe that the feeling there expressed was a growing one, that it extended to many of the leading Protestants in Ireland, and this result was owing greatly to the manner in which the question had been treated. He was about to move a reso lution, of which it might be said, that in all the principles contained in it her Majesty's Government entirely concurred. He candidly avowed that that was not the view with which he moved the resolution.—( hear, from the Duke of Wellington.) tithe principles professed in the resolution were principles which the Noble Lords opposite unscrupulously opposed when they were not in power, though it was true that they paid some lip homage to them at the moment of their accession to office. But were there no other proofs but that petition of the necessity of inquiry into this subject Another Noble Friend of his had presented another petition, signed by the same class of persons, to the same effect. He was sure that nothing but an imperious sense of duty could have induced the first sub ject in Ireland—the Duke of Leinster—to have taken the chair at the meeting at which this petition was agreed to. There was also the letter, which they must have seen, of a Noble Lord much opposed to the leader of the Repeal movement—the Earl of Shrewsbury. All these things proved the necessity of an inquiry into the conduct of the Government. He felt serious ala , in at the state of Ireland; but trusted that peace would still be preserved. He then proceeded to the repeal agita tion. When that agitation first became formidable, two courses were open to the Government, by following up either of which with perseverance, they would] have led to sepa rate advantages —( Hear, hear, hear.) They might have interfered at first by proclamation to put down these meetings. If this course was to be taken afterwards—if it was resolved that it should be taken—it would have been the most straightforward and most manly course to have taken it at once. More than this he would say, that if the Government had evidence enough to establish a charge of sedition, it was their bounden duty to have interfered.—( Hear, hear.) lint by the course they did take, though the advantages were con tingent, the evils were immediate. From the violence of some of their declarations at the time, he certainly inferred that they wished to strike but dared not. The best chance of the success of their policy was that their vigorous acts should be accompanied by remedial measurer. Common prudence should have dictated to them, that if no rigour was to be shown, need leas irritation should have been avoided. But what (lid they do ? They took that most senseless step of dismissing the Irish magistrates. With this one exception, they appeared determined to persevere in what some of their friends called the do-nothing policy. But just when they seemed on the point of reaping the fruits of forbear ance , w h en the agitation would either have died out, or, passing a certain point, would have taken another form, at that moment they altered their course, and stopped in, and p• oceeded by proclamation against these meetings, thus giving one sectian of their ow n party not only a triumph over the majo rity of the people, but a triumph over themselves.—(Cheers.) The Noble 1.-rd cheered, but it must be recollected that that was not a new view of the subject. He was not generally inclined to attribute to any party, particularly to persons in office, ar ticles which appeared in periodical publications. But in the month of September last, there certainly did appear an article in a periodical publication which, if he were not much mistaken (and he had studied the style), x as the production of an old friend of his (the Noble Marquis here turned towards the Marquis of Clanricarde) than whom no one was better acquainted with Ireland. The article he alluded to was in the Quarterly Re view.—( Ministerial cheers.) It must be remembered that the opinions there stated were not his. (The Noble Marquis here read a passage from the Quarterly Review of September last, in which it was stated the meetings would wear themselves out, and that the Fabian policy would at length defeat them; and that the mischief that would result from the opposite course would be incalculable.) lie (the Marquis of Normanby) had no hesitation in saying that he agreed with these sentiments. But the Government had taken a different course— they issued their proclamation to prevent the meeting at Clon tart ; and before coming to that part of the subject, he wished to know whether any Noble Lord had ever heard one single person in private conversation defend the conduct of the Go vernment in that case—whether they had ever heard of so much rashness, after so much vacillation, exhibited by any Govern ment ? If it had not been for the active interference of those from whom the Govornment had no right to expect support, what would have been the consequence ?—( Hear, hear, from the Duke of Wellington.) He should like to hear some explanation of the matter. If it was defended in that House, it would be the first time that it was defended in any quarter.— ( Hear, hear, from the Duke of Wellington, and other Noble Lords oni the Alinisteral benches.) Noble Lords cheered him, but he was sure he would not hear from them such taunts as were used against the parties who had so interfered—taunts of cowardice—because they had obeyed the law. He was sure lie would not hear such a defence, and he hoped that Noble Lords opposite who cheered would put their explanation in a more intelligible shape. He would not trouble the House at any length about his opinions respecting repeal, because he had stated those opinions already as strorgly as any of their Lordships, and that too not within that House, but face to face with a portion of the Irish people, who had previously advocated repeal. In the year 1836, an address had been presented to him, when in the south of Ire , land, from one of the Ridings of the county of Cork, in which it was stated that they had advocated the doctrine of repeal, but had given it up in consequence of the measures they expected from the Government. lie, on that occasion, stated his sincere opinion, that the repeal was not for the benefit of Ire land, and that his sincerity in that opinion was in proportion to his love for Ireland. The people stated to him on that occasion that all they asked was equality with the British people, and a reciprocity of rights and principles. With less, they said, they could not be content, and with less, he said, they should not he content. Ile thought that the present condition of the sister nation was such as to require all the benefits which could be derived from progressive legislation ; but it must have progressive legislation, it could not be acquired by a re peal of the union. Ile should still say, notwithstandi i g that opinion, that the question of the repeal of the union was one „d i m, wa s open to discussion ; for, although injurious as its consummation might be to the kingdom, yet it was only the restoration of an Act which existed many years ago, and which Act when it was repealed was opposed by many of the most eminent of both countries, amongst whom was the re spected late Lord Holland. lie therefore denied the right to impute to the Irish peopls. a spirit of " wild " enthusiasm, when they sought to repeal an Act which had been opposed by such men as those to whom he just now alluded, and the more particularly so when the machinery by which this Act was carried was such as not to bear investigation or to meet the daylight, and had been in its origin opposed by , the leading men of the country, In repeating what he said in the year 1836, with respect to his opinion of repealing the union, he was. alone actuated by the most sincere love of Ireland and the Irish people. lie most certainly must dissent from the prin ciple which the present Ministry seemed to involve in the last speech from the throne, namely, that they were, even in the slightest degree, bound to abide by a declaration made in a former reign. What, he would ask, was the intent of a dissolution of Parliament, but to take the sense of the people, and therefore how was a new Parliament to be held responsible for the declarations made in a previous one ?—(llear, hear.) In seven years after the declaration of the union with Scotland, the Duke of Argyle waited in per son upon her Majesty, and said that to such an extent had dis content now existed, that the nation must consider the union dissolved. He (the Earl of Nermanby) thought that the best way to repress the agitation—which was so much deplored by their Lordships—was to apply a remedy to the grievances of the country. There might he such a thing as persevering attempts to create turbulence and disaffection by a denial of justice.— ( Hear, hear.) Let their Lordships go back, let them freshen up their recollections, and say if they knew of no phrases used —( Hear, hear.)—no stringent measures suggested—no re medies refused which were calculated to embitter the feelings of the Irish and provoke them to disaffection? Why, the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, whom however, he admitted, from the kindliness of his nature was incapable of a petsevering effort to anoy, so as to excite—but had not his Noble and Learned Friend, if so he might call him, un happily used a phrase, in speaking of the Irish, which had sunk deep into their minds? If they condemned so strongly the application of the word " Saxon" to the English, surely they ought to recollect the application of the word "alien" to the Irish . The LORD CHANCELLOR—WeII, but that was two Parliaments back—( Great laughter. ) The Marquis of NORM A N BY- —That was the best defence of the expression, then, which it appeared the Noble and Learned Lord had it in his power to make.—( Laughter. ) Well, he mus t say , h e t h ought it was too serious a subject to jest upon, and he was sorr y t o b e conpe ll ed to think that neither two Parliaments, nor many more, perhaps, than two Parlia menss, would suffice to do away with the evil effects it had produced.—(Hear, hear.) And in the days when that ex pression was used—in 183 G—other phrases were used whose effect had scarcely been less injurious. It was the common saying, if not of the Noble Lords then on the Ministerial benches, certainly of those who were their adherents, that the Government of that day was aolely kept in office by the Irish. By making this distinction, they were as effectually departing from the principles of the union as any repealer ever did, and the intention to be implied could only be that they looked upon Ireland as a province, instead of an integral po r ti on o f th e British em pire.—( Year, hear.) In that opinion he was supported by a very high authority—indeed, no less than that of an honoured friend of his now in the grave. He alluded to the late Baron Smith, father of the Attorney-General for Ireland, and of whom hereafter he should T have a few words to say.—( Hear, and a laugh.) In the year 1833, Baron Smith, not speaking amongst private friends, or even at a public meeting, but from the judgment-seat, had declared that as long as England was true to the principles of the union, it ought to last, and would last ; but should the time arvive when she looked upon her as a province, instead of a part of England—( Bear, hear)—then her independence as a nation would be claimed by her people. Such was the opinion of Baron Smith. But the real fact was, that the Noble Lords opposite were always attempting to act upon a system which must defeat itsel—they were always trying to govern Ireland by a minority of her people—a princi ple which never had succeeded, and never would succeed. Was that attempt made in Canada ? It was there felt that the only nay to secure the affections of the people was to govern through a msjority, and not through a minority. And what ever exorbitant pretensions might have groan out of the course of proceeding adopted their, lie thought they were more than counterbalanced by the advantages which had been gained. It had been often said that all the influence of himself and his Noble Friend behind him, in Ireland, was owing to the patron age being placed at the disposal of Mr. O'Connell. It had been found necessary to place the patronage in Canada, with a very slight reservation, in the hands of those who represented the majority of their countrymen. He would take this opportunity of reterring to what he had said on this subject on the motion of the Noble Earl in the year 1837. The Noble Marquis then quoted his own words with respect to the distribution of patronage, declaring that though Mr. O'Connell had occasional communications with him, his appli cations on the subject of patronage were fewer than those of almost any other Member of Parliament, whilst he did not in the least bind or control the exercise of his judgment. He did not deny that the Government consulted Mr. O'Connell in reference to many appointments; and with reference to the charge of receiving from him support, he honestly confessed that this was a circumstance which, considering how he carried with him the hearts and affections of the Irish people, formed any thing but a cause of regret. Such was the statement which he made in 18.37 ; and he appealed to his successors, whether the appointments which he had made, whether in the Church, the law, or the police, had not been marked by an efficient discharge of the vario is duties to beperformed.— ( Hear, hear.) He had felt that the great difficulty of go verning Ireland arose from the way in which the Catholic question was carried, the persons by whom it was carried, and the time at which it was carried—being thirty years later than it should have been. It was unfortunate that the Relief Bill should have been carried at the sacrifice of public character ; and with respect to the mode, it was coupled with many provisions which were utterly useless in themselves, and diminished the gratitude of the Irish people. But that question having been carried, I think it unnecessary to advert to the succeeding years, when I was employed in another part of the world. At the same time he could not pass over those years in the presence of his Noble and Gallant. Friend behind him without rendering a tribute to his zeal in the cause of Ireland, and to his love for the Irish people, displayed amidst difficulties from all quarters, and at a time when he was thwarted by those from whom he might have looked for support.---(Cries of .‘ Hear, hear.") One of the great objects of his Government, and that of his Noble Friend behind him, was to purify the administration of justice, and restore the confidence of the people in that ad ministration. The abstract love of justice which Sir John Davis spoke of as animating the Irish people still remained among them ; it had lasted so long, perhaps from its being in Ireland a rare luxury.--( Hear, bear, and a laugh.) The Go vernment by the dismissal of the magistrates, struck a great blow at that confidence. It was said to have been done in consequence of declarations made in that House of Parliament. This seemed to have some insincerity, as it was impossible to believe that the Chancellor of Ireland did not know what were the views of his Government with respect to repeal. When a Viceroy of Ireland was once attacked in that House on some question, he defended himself, by stating that he never read the newspapers.— (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The dismissed magistrates when charged, might have said the same. Minis ters had occasionally made many declarations on different sub jects—on the Catholic question, on the corn-laws—and those declarations had never been followed out; nay, the persons who made them had been the first to set against them.— ( Hear and laughter). The dismissal of the magistrates was an utterly inefficient step; more deliberate notice ought to have been taken. Again, the people of Ireland had confi dence in the stipendiary magistrates, and the first step of the Government was to dismiss ten of them. With respect to their law appointments, again, they were particularly unfor tunate. Who was the first judge appointed? Baron Lefroy, who, slain after the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act, was not allowed to go the circuit, on account of some declara tion he made qualifying his allegiance in consequence of the , passing of that Act. Another question, in which the Irish people were:much interested, was that of national education. Yet another judge they appointed was Mr. Sergeant Jackson, who was violently opposed to it. But all sunk into insignifi cance compared with the appointment of Mr. Smith to the _! Attorney-Generalship of Ireland. At a meeting in Dublin in the year 1837, when all those in attendance were of one party and the same politics as himself, that gentleman was re ported to have said of the Roman Catholics that he was sorry to say that circumstances induced him to believe that they (the Romau Catholics) had very little regard for the sanctity of an oath, and had very little hesitation in violating their consciences. Such a statement as that ought to have been a lasting dim lualification for any office under Government. If Mr. Smith did not believe what he then said, but had uttered it in the excitement of a party speech, he showed a deficiency of judgment, and discretion, and every qualifi ca ti on which Noble Lords should have sought in the person to be appointed to such an office as that of At torney-General. But if he did believe it, then he (the Mar quis of Normanby) mus t sa y th a t th e un h appy man w h o entertained such a belief of not only seven-eighths of his countrymen, but also of the majority of the Christian world, was totally unfit for the situation he now filled. It was not his intention to attack Mr. Smith, but rather the Government through Mr. Smith—the Government that had appointed such a gentleman to office. He must say it was highly improper for a Government to have as Attorney-General a person whom they could never raise to the bench ; for it was utterly impossible for any Government ever to raise Mr. Smith to the bench. With respect to the prosecutions and the charge of conspiracy, he only repeated now what he had stated in the commencement of his observations on the subject, viz. that he thought it the duty of Government, if they had had evidence of seditious meetings, and libels, to have prosecuted directly for those charges, and not to have introduced this new system of a monster indictment with all that accumulation of charges. The effect of it would be to excite in a portion of the English people, who would otherwise be indifferent to the state of Ireland, a feeling that there was unfairness in the con duct of the affair. 'With respect to the panel of the jury, the only answer that was given to account for the omission of the Roman Catholics from it was, that the slip containing their names had been lost. He thought that the first object in a matter such as this should have been to have impannelled a fair and impartial jury, and could that be expected where there was a total exclus'on of Catholics? The Duke of WELLINGTON (emphatically)—Yes. The Marquis of NORMANDY would ask, was not this a question between the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland— did not the opposite party appeal directly to the Protestants to come forward and register ? The Government ought to have taken special care to have chosen a jury which could not be subject to the imputation of partiality. In support of his opinion, he would read to thefr Lord ships an extract from the Dublin Evening Mail. The purport of that extract was that all questions resolve themselves into one of religion and not of politics, and that the agitation which was now carried on was solely dependent upon religious animosity. Those were the words of the organ of the Tory party. With respect to the formation of the jury, therefore, he should say that it was most open to the imputa tion of partiality. As to the charge of the Chief Justice of Ireland, he (the Marquis of Normanby) was perfectly well aware of the various difficulties by which the Learned Judge was surrounded, but he felt almost deluded into the idea when he was reading the Learned Jndge's charge that he was reading the speech of the Solicitor-General instead. He would not further refer to the conduct of the Judge than 1 to say that it was, happily, usual to find them adopting a very differnt tone and manner when addressing juries in the courts of England. A Noble Friend behind him had called his attention to a circumstance in which another Irish Judge shone, in a manner more conspicuous than creditable. On a trial for political libel, in charging the jury, that Learned Judge was reported to have said—" Gentlemen of the jury, this is a most diabolical libel, and that is not mincing the matter.”—( Laughter.) Very happy was he (Lord Normanby) to think that a very diff erent tone an d manner prevailed in the courts of justice in England.--( Hear, hear.) 1 . here were many subjects in connexion with the state of Ireland to which he should have liked to have directed their Lordships' consideration, especially with regard to the appointments made by the Government; but he thought it would be better, under all the circumstances, to postpone them for the present. Were their Lordships indisposed, at a future period, to grant him an inquiry, at all events he should have an opportunity, in moving for papers, to bring those matters before their Lord ships and the country. 'I here was, however, one matter which he could not refrain from alluding to at the present mo ment. It referred to a clerical appointment, and was worth the consideration of their Lordships. It had pleased a Right Hon. Baronet in the other House (Sir Robert. Peel), when reading a letter of instruction to the Lord-Lieutenant in Ire land, on the subject of clerical appointments, to do him ( Lord Normanby) the honour of elmplimenting him on the judg ment he had shown in his selections.—(Year.) Hap pily, he (Lord Normanby) could appeal to that House, in reference to his appointments, for, on a former creasion, Noble Lords had expressed their approval of them. He begged, how ever, to ask Noble Lords on the Treasury benches whether, of all clerical candidates for honours and appointments in Ire land, they held the Rev. Holt Waring to be most qualified, by humility of demeanour, and quiet, unobtrusive performance of the duties of his sacred office ?—( Hear, hear.) In an account which he had read, in a Government newspaper, of the famous meeting at Hillsborough, it was s tated, i n th e description lie referred to, that " in a few minutes the first detachment headed by the Rev. Holt Waring, and preceded by the union jack, was now seen descending the hill—a close, dark, intense ina,s of human beings, comprising not less than twentythousandmen. This, the first detachment, under the llev. I?ean . Lord WHARNCLIFFE— Very like the parish priests. defend his The Marquis of NORAIANBY—In his zea l ... 1 sotto, tin Noble Lord casts a slur on the racial priest.. Lord , NTIARNCLIFFE—Oh, dear! Now, go on. The Marquis of NORMANIIY—" The first detachment under the Rev. Dean having halted, express( d their thanks in warm terms to that gentleman, gave three hearty cheers for him, and then, deploying round, took up the position assigned to them." Now he asked Noble Lords was not this military array ? Was it not the chnrch militant in a most dis creditable position, and did the Government prosecute Mr. Warin g ?—( Ch eers.) The Noble Lord, the ts'cretary for Ireland, at .. the ti me o f hi s election, had repeated the declara tions of Sir Robert Peel on assuming the reins of Government —that the p o li cy o f the Government in respect to Ireland should b e o f a generous andconciliator • cha racter. This promi se was made in 1841 and the only generous Bill whit li had been p asse d was t ' he Arms' gill.— ( Laughter.) With reference to that Bill, he thought what had occurred was calculated to revive the apprehensions which were originally entertained as to the manner in which it would be executed.—( Hear, hear.) But for the presence of Mr. Gore Jones, a stipendiary magi trate, the magistrates would have done what the Government which brought in the Bill declared was never intended.—( Hear, hear. ) Now, having given this notice of motion, he might be expected to say a few words on some of the topics which had been opened in the petition presented by his Noble Friend, signed by a considerable num ber of the respectable Roman Catholics and Protestants of Ire land. lie could not avoid saying that he considered that the present state of the Irish Church required further inquiry, and that, always taking it as the first object, that that Church should be adequate to the wants of the Protestants of Ireland, the whole question should be open for the consideration of Par liament. He thought it very desirable that any distinctions which existed between the two religions should be done away ; and he considered it necessary for the tranquillity of Ireland that the Catholic religion should be placed on a footing of equality with the Protestant. In almost every country where there was a mixed population, consisting of Catholics and Pro testants, the religions of the two classes were placed on equal footing- 7 ( Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt said, at the time of the Union, that it was not easy to say, on general prin ciples, what system of church establishment would be free from difficulty. By many it was considered that the re• ligion of the majority should he placed on an equal footing with that of the minority, but those who applied that principle with out qualification forgot the relation between En g lish and Irish interests. Whilst Ireland rema i ne d a separate kingdom, said Mr. Pitt, full concessions could not be made to the Catholics without endangering the stability of the Constitution itself. These words were perfectly consistent with the article of the Union, which maintained that the Established Church in Ire land should be united to the Established Church in England, but used the remarkable phrase—" in like manner as the Church of Scotland." He also referred to the circumstance that it had been said that the establishment of Presbytery in Scotland was a most impolitic as well as wicked thing. There was much in all this that called for their serious atten tion. With respect to the payment of the Catholic clergy, without giving any opinion upon that point, he thought that the present was a most unfortunate moment for such a proposi tion to be brought forward. lie was borne out in this opinion by the language used by Mr. Grattan at the time of the Union. He said that the Government of that day was ready to pay the clergy, if they added treason to the people to their subser viency to a Court. But if the clergy were to be paid, it must be by salaries, not by bribes ; they must be paid an income for the performance of religious duties, not a bribe for political apestacy. Without saying that he did not lament their having taken such an active part in the agitation, he thought there was much reason for seeing the principle of Mr. Grattan ap plied. But lie could not mention that body, which had been so much abused, without rendering to them his tribute of praise for the activity and zeal with n hich they had always assisted him in preserving the peace and detecting offences.—( Hear, hear. ) It was common to attribute much of the misfortune and crimes of Ireland to the religion of the people of that coun try ; but he thought the misfortunes of the Irish people arose much more from thei r re l a ti ons a i t h man than from their relations with their Maker. In no country in the world, in spite of all their privations and sufferings, was there a people amo ng w h om t h e d omestic virtues were more universally precinct!. No, it was the great struggle for existence, which their legislation had not secured for them, from which all tiler misery arose. With respect to the ques tion of the Irish franchise, the declaration lately made by the Government was certainly a most welcome inconsistency, after the declarations that had fallen from that party. The number of electors in England and Scotland was 850,000 ; in Ireland it was 150,000, in a population of 8,000,000. If they took the numbers of the Members with respect to the population, the disproportien was the same. ( Hear. ) One of the complaints of the Irish people was, that their inte rests were neglected and the resources of their country not developed, and that the natural tendency of having the Parliament sitting in Westminster was to promote absenteeism. Those were matters which demanded further consideration. They embodied the complaints of a large portion of the Irish people, who were not prepared to advocate repeal. The number of Members ought certainly to be increased, and the fran chise extended, so as to put Ireland upon a perfect equality with England as respected representation. The other night lie had adverted in a few words to the Landlord and Tenant Commission. He regretted that something more satisfactory had not been elicited by some of his Noble Friend's remarks on the subject. However, there could be no doubt that the relation of landlord and tenant in Ireland called for some amelioration. It was notorious in the constitution of society in Ireland that the landlord had a monopoly of the means of existence— that lie had the means of enforcing his bargains which did not exist elsewhere. He did not recommend " fixity of tenure" as the mode of adjusting the question, but he thought that in the course of the inquiry the Government must ascertain what was the most advisable regulation to adopt; the proportion which rent bore to produce in Ireland was that in a farm where produce was 1501. the share of the landlord in point of rent was 100/., whereas in England out of 300/. as produce, the landlord received for rent 1001. That account was taken from a very able and compendious statement drawn up by Mr. Wiggins, who had beer. appointed to inquire and report upon the subject. With respect to the commission of crime in Ireland, he thought that the time hail passed by when certain specific crimes committed against landlords, instead of being attributed to the depravity of as they should be, were attributed to the religion of the people. A gentleman, writing on the occasion of the late Finnoe tragedy, had stated that there should not have been Catholic policemen, and that that outrage was a part of a re. ligious persecution. Now he (the Marquis of Normanby) was happy to state, what was fortunately the case, viz., that the in divieival who had so distinguished himself in defence of his master on that occasion was a Roman Catholic. Re would wish to impress upon their Lordships the idea that the situa tion of that country, in respect to the spread of civilisation, was not so different from that of this country, because there civilisa tion and education were making rapid strides, and in consequence a right thinking spirit of public opinion was being created, and this feeling was not alone confined to Great Britain, but had also extended to Europe generally, the people of which, through the medium of the press, were closely observing the conduct of this country towards Ireland. It was true, that he might be car ried away in expressing his opinions by his partiality towards Ireland, and might be induced to speak more strongly of the wants and grievances of that country; but still he could calmly say, that any one who (independent of political considerations) looked at the history of that country, must acknowledge that the misery of the country was solely to be attributed to the misrule to which it had been subjected. If their Lord ships were prepared to go on governing through the me dium of a minority of the people of Ireland, and to abide by the result of partial administration of justice, when a prosecution was before the Courts, which vitally affected the interests of the country, and on that occasion excluded from the jury all thole belonging to the faith professed by the great body of the people—if they were inclined to exhibit to the nations of the earth the extraordinary spectacle of the finest country—and the most peaceable at present—in a state of military occupation, they would pursue the course which had been followed through centuries of misgovernment, and reject all inquiry ; but if they chose to win the feelings and affections of a loyal and brave people, and to give stability to the empire, and security to the throne, they sh - sold redress the grievances of that long oppressed country. The Noble Mar quis concluded by moving, " that this House, having in answer to her Majesty's most gracious speech, assured her Majesty that they entered into her Majesty's feelings, in forbearing from observations on events in Ireland, in respect to which proceedings are pending before the proper legal tribunals, feel it in consequence, to be their duty to take the earliest oppor tunity, when no prejudice can arise therefrom in the minds of the jury, to r ecord their intention to examine into the causes of the discontent now unhappily too prevalent in that country : also, that with a view to the removal of existing evils, anti the restoration of confidence, this House look to the development of the only true principles of a perfect union, by securing to her Majesty's subjects, of all classes and persuasions, in all parts of the United Kingdom, the practical enjoyment of equal rights." Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that when his Noble Friend yesterday placed on the table of their Lordships' House, the resolutions he intended to submit to their consideration, he confessed he did not understand them, because it did not ap pear that there was any precise mark or object attempted in them. He at once understood the course which was being taken in the other House by moving for a Committee of the whole House, in which, if obtained, resolutions would be intro duced by the Noble Lord who moved for that Committee, charging himself and friends on the present Government with the commission of high and grave offences. There was no thing, however, of such intention in the resolutions of the Noble Marquis ; but. what was wanting in (hie respect in the resolutions was amply made up by the speech which intro duced them.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis undoubtedly had made very serious charges against the Government in his speech. Well, lie ( Lord 'Wharncliffe) was quite ready to meet them.—(Cheers. ) His charges were distinctly math —he would meet him distinctly upon them. He would endeavour, first, to meet his charges in respect to that agitation which led at last to a conviction, in the mind of every dispassionate person, that a conspiracy of a most dangerous anti illegal character, existed in Ireland. The Noble Lord said that in dealing with this agitation, and with this eon spirasy, they had pursued a wrong course from the beginning. He said there were two courses open to the Government. One of these was to allow (as the Government had done, and wrongly done, as the Noble Marquis argued) the meetings to be held, and let them wear themselves out ; the other was to take instant anti determined measures at once to put an end to them ; that they adopted a course at first which at last they abandoned without reason. Now he (Lord 'Wharncliffe) would prove the Noble Marquis to be wrong in both his positions.— ( Hear, hear.) He begged to inform him that the Government never did suppose, even for one instant, that, by allowing these meetings to go on, they would wear themselves out. They saw from the first that there was danger to the peace of the country from these meetings. 'they !hough, then, as they thought now, that the bringing of great bodies of people together, and the trying to force these people on by exciting speeches to a particular line of conduct was as illegal as it was dangerous.—(Cheers). They prepared to stop this agitation and suppress these meetings, but they did so warily and cautiously—perhaps waiting for a good oppostunity when their determination could successfully be put in force.—(Hear, hear. ) The question was to prove to the satisfaction of a Court and jury, anti to the satisfaction of the reasonable and reflecting portion of the community, that these meetings were illegal, anti that they ought to lie sup pressed. The difficulty was to provide the proof that the meetings were for an illegal purpose. Ile quite agreed with the Noble ftlarquis, that to seek for a repeal of the union was not illegal in itself—to seek for that was clearly every man's right who might desire the change ; but the offence lucre was for seeking that legal object by means which most indubitably were of an illegal character.—(Cheers. ) The Government had been reproached on all sides by its friends for not sooner acting. They had been called a do•nothing Cove' iimee.it for allowing the organisation to proceed to the length which it did before they interfered—but they had only waited until they could effectually act. Their opponents, on the other han d ,. et said, now that they had interfered, 's Oh, you should h o a n v e n the meetings wear themselves out." And had t h he m y .e fc es and the meetings had still gone on (for wear , t nt e , knew it 1, nut they would not have dune, and well their ri and to taunt them for doing so. lie take sa such time, and adopt then these very persons would have been before they did anything else, was s u t c o cess at a blow, which they ' e t h 'b rn b t r h st eir to butn i e a s i s t . l such measures. as would ensure success 'aye to this agitation. But had from the first determined . abovethe Noble Lord planed i ' all for their conduct at themClontarf, It'by he did nut mbelieve the Noble Marquis knew what he svgs talking about when he • at that very time an ;, tarf meeting was to be the last. li sail that this Choi angement s had been made f.ir tootling six or severs more such meetings. Now let, it be recollected that, although at Tai a and Mullaghmast there had been proceedings of a most unjustifiable character, that those derigntd to be caaettd