The Sun. — London, England, 1844-07-20 00:00:00

' IMPEIt/AL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, July 19. ROYAL ASSENT. At Four o'clock there was a Commission to give the Royal Assent to certain Bills. The Commissioners were the Lord Chancellor, Lord Wharncliffe, and Earl Dalhousie. The following are the Bills which received the Royal Assent—the Bank Charter Bill ; the Property-Tax Exemption Bill ; the Dissenters' Chapel Bill ; the Cus toms Duties (Isle of Man) Bill ; the County Rates Bill ; the Militia Ballot Suspension Bill ; the Stock in Trade Assessment Bill ; the Paupers Removal Bill (Scotland) Bill ; the Parishes (Scotland) Bill ; the Prisons (Scot land) Bill ; Loan Societies (Ireland) Bill; Manchester, Ashton-under-Lyne, and Staleybridge Railway Bill ; Colchester and Ipswich Railway Bill ; the South-Western Railway Amendment Bill ; the Liverpool Docks Bill ; the Berkenhead Docks Bill; the Southampton Improvement Bill ; the Coventry Im provement Bill ; the York Gas Light Company s' Bill ; and several Road and Estate Bills. Their Lordships adjourned for a short time, and as seinbled again, when— Mr. E. James was called to the Bar, and addressed their Lordships against the Gaming Bill. Wben the Learned Gentleman concluded, Mr. Russell was called and examined by Lord BROUGHAM—I am the attorney in the qui tam ac tions ; I was instructed by my clerk ; he is my brother; he has a salary of 80/. a year; I brought about 34 actions; he did not instruct me till I first suggested to him to do so; I expect he will pay me; I do not expect he will pay the entire. Theexpense of one of those actions, if lost, might be about 1,0001. A gentleman paid 900 L towards the expenses. Ido not know him ; he did not instruct me. I decline to tell who he is, because that was com municated to me as an attorney. He is not my client. I know his name, but I decline to give it. Lord BROUGHAM—No privilege will protect a man who is not your client. Come, give the name. The LORD CHANCELLOR—If you do not answer that question you will reflect on the consequences. Witness—l decline to answer, because it was a privi leges:l communication. Lord BROUGHAM—Did you know the name from any one independent of your client ? Mr. Russell—l knew it from my client first; but I knew it from other sources.—(A laugh.) To the LORD CHANCELLOR—Never had any communication with the person who paid this money, except in the presence of his brother, and thought that he was justified in refusing to give the name of that person. Lord BROUGHAM told the witness that he was not privileged as to the unknown person, and must con sider the consequences.—(Hear, hear.) The Committee had no power to commit h►m, but the House had. The Duke of RICHMOND asked had he not advised his brother not to bring the action in his own name, be cause his character was so tainted? Answer—l think I did.—(Laughter.) Lord BROUGHAM submitted to their Lordships that as the person at the bar admitted that the person whose name he withheld was not his client, he could not refuse to give the name. After some consultation with the Noble and Learned Lord, the Counsel, Mr. James, and the witness, were ordered to withdraw from the bar ; and the witness was peremptorily ordered not to leave the House. A conversation ensued of some length, in which several Noble Lords took part, respecting the course to be pur sued ; when it was resolved that the witness Russell be ordered to attend at the bar, and that in the meantime his evidence before the Select Committee and the House be printed. The witness was accordingly called in, and ordered to attend. He said—" I will obey your Lordships."—("Oh, of course you will.") THE IRISH STATE TRIALS' APPEAL. The LORD CHANCELLOR wished to call the at tention of the House to a matter which affected himself personally, and which was, however, of some importance to their Lordships and to public justice. His attention was drawn, through the medium of one of thelrish papers, to a statement in the Morning Chronicle, that whilst Mr. Hill was arguing upon the challenge of the array, " the Lord Chancellor said that there could be no doubt that the array was fraudulent." The Morn ing Chronicle went on to ask, could it be doubted that a verdict obtained under fraud so admitted by the Lord Chancellor of England would be viewed with any other feelings than those of execration by the people of England ; or could any Ministry have the audacity to carry the sentence into effect, after such a condemnation ? These remarks were printed in large letters in all the Irish papers. He did not blame the writer in the Morning Chronicle, who was misled, from not understanding what he (the Lord Chancellor) had said. Nothing could be further fromthe meaning of his ob servations, which went no farther than that if the array were made in the way which Mr. Hill stated it must be fraudulent ; but that he could not judge of that, as he knew nothing of the facts, which should have been de• tided by the Court of Queen's Bench. Lord BROUGHAM concurred in the observations of his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, and said that nothing could justify the use which the Irish papers had made of the m►srepresentation. Lord CAMPBELL said that his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack was perfectly right in making to the House the explanation which he had made. But he (Lord Campbell) must say, that when this subject came before the House he should differ from the opinion of his Noble and Learned Friend, and that he thought the Attorney-General was not justified in going to trial as he did, nor until the whole book of the jury-list had been gone through, and the defendants had a full chance of a fair trial. Lord CO'FTENHAM said that the statement in the Morning Chronicle was incorrect, as had been properly shown by his Noble and Learned Friend ; but the mis apl,•rehension of the writer was very excusable, when the ditlie:xtty of a law argument, even to a lawyer, was con sidered. The conversation then dropped. MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. Mr. ernEgaz and others from the Commons brought up the Unlawful Oaths Bill (Ireland), the Soap Duties Bill, the Party Processions Bill (Ireland), the Farm building Burnings Bill, the Loan Societies Bill, and nu merous other Bills, which were severally read a first time. THE POST-OFFICE INQUIRY. A further message from the Commons communicated the permission of the Commons to Lord J. Russell to attend before their Lordships' Committee. The Earl of RAI)NOR had seen it stated in some of the ilewbvapers that he had consented to have his name omitted from that Committee. He thought it right to sav that he felt he ought to have been on the Committee. The Duke of WELLING TON had supposed that the which he had proposed for the Committee was uni verb ally approved of. CORN-LAWS. The Earl of RADNOR presented a petition from agriculturists of Wiltshire, complaining of distress, and praying for the repeal of the corn-laws, and all laws against the importation of provisions. Their Lordships had repeatedly denied that there was distress ; and a Noble Lord near him said there was none in Wiltshire, but the petitioners who resided there were likely to know better than the Noble Lord (Methuen), who seldom ykited the county.—(Hear, and a laugh.)' Lard METHUEN said he was well acquainted with tfre county, but he might not know as much of some par tichlac persons as the Noble Earl, who went about in every' corner searching for statements of distress.— (hear, an,:l a laugh.) The ',Nike of RICHMOND presented petitions in fa vour of racte &ion, and said that he would send down a pamphlet to ahov,- the true state of the questions to the persons who signed the Noble Earl's (Radnor's) petition from WiltshireAbut it would be of no use, as many of them could not read.—(Hear', hear.) Earl _RADNOR said the petitioners should be allowed to express their opinions of their own interests, although they could not read.—(Hear, hear.) The Duke of RICHMOND had only said that his book would be of no use to them, as they could not read; he did not deny their right to petition.—(Hear, hear.) GREAT SOUTLIERN AND WESTERN RAIL- WAY BILL. On the motion of Lord MONTEAGLE, the orders of the day were suspended, and the Bill was read a third ;awe, and passed. ARTS-UNION BILL. LT,ord MONTEAGLE moved that the House resolve itsel! in to Committee on this Bill. The .Luke of CAMBRIDGE seconded the motion, an d b ore l e , itimony to the great utility of those institu tions, and to the great spread of taste and skill to which they had gi yell rise among the people. He was a sub scriber to thle _London Art-Union, and so were many ocher Members of that House, and although they had no pecuniary interest in the matter, they were all liable to be sent to prison.---CA laugh.) He should not much grieve for himself, for he would be in good company.-►- (Great laughter.) lie thougbt it would be a great advan tage if the Bill should pass in time to allow exhibitions now open to be taken advantage of fur the purposes of the unions. —(Cheers.) The Marquis of Northampton, the Marquis of Lans downe, and Lord Colborne, supported the motion for going into Committee. _ _ 7 . Lord MCllsrlia6l,E returned his earnest thanks to the Illustrious Doke for the honour he had done him and the servi,teit;haklienderedt;;;t:i;) , supporting his motion. The Bill then passed through Committee without dis cussion, and vas reported. The Brighton, Lewes, and Hastings Railway Bill was read a third time and passed. The Aliens Bill passed through Committee without discussion, was reported, and ordered to be printed with t=he amendments. FEES OF CLERKS OF THE PEACE. • The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, according to notice, inquired of the Noble President of the Co unc il w h et h er there we a n intention to bring in this session a Bill on the subject • a the fees of Clerks of Peace. In ref err i ng to the rep. Ile , of the Commission on the state of Wales, it would be' ,seen that, as well as the turnpike tolls, the fees given to the magistrates' clerks were part of the sources of c Tpression and causes of discontent. Lord WEL dRNCLIFFE assured the Noble Lord that the attention. of the Government had been directed to this subject, anti they would bring it under the conside ration of the J - louse early next session. The Duke •of RICHMOND was glad to hear that it was the intendion of the Government to bring in a Bill upon this subject. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS. The Martin/is of CLANRICARDE moved for a return of all sums under the control of the Ecclesiastical Com- missionars of :England and Wales, not appropriated to any particular purpose, up to the latest period to which the same could be made up; distinguishing the episcopal :fund from that which is appropriated to the augmenta tion of small livings. As the motion was not to be op posed, he would not occupy the House by going at i iiength into the considerations which rendered the re turns necessary. As the question of the union of the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor was most likely to come again before the House, he thought it was most desirable to have the information for which he asked; and the more especially as a Noble Friend of his had proposed that if one of the bishoprics were suppressed, the fund so saved should be appropriated to the aug mentation of small livings in the diocese. Lord WHARNCLIFFE had no objection to the return. The Duke of RICHMOND complained of the con duct of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, in not making annual returns of their receipts and expenditure. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE defended the ap pointment of the Commission, on the ground that a more advantageous arrangement of Church property, even for the holders themselves, could be made. But three years had elapsed since he had the honour of being a member of that Commission, and he was happy to say, that whenever its arrangements had been carried into effect, great improvements in favour of the holders of Church land bad been effected, and such improvements were spreading. He hoped there would be no delay, on the part of the Commission, in putting an end to uncer tainty everywhere as to the conditions under which all such lands were to be held. After a few words from Lord REDESDALE and from the Marquis of CLANRICARDE in reply, the returns were ordered. INSOLVENT DEBTORS' ACT AMENDMENT BILL On the motion of Lord BROUGHAM, the Bill passed through Committee without discussion, and was re ported. BUTTER AND CHEESE. On the motion of the Earl of POWIS, this Bill also passed through Committee, and was reported. The Roman Catholic Parish Acts Abolition Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday. THE COUNTY CORONERS' BILL. The Duke of RICHMOND, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said that there was one clause intro duced into it to which he would give his utmost opposi tion—that was the payment of an increased amount for the coroners' travelling expenses out of the county-rates. He thought that these expenses ought to be paid out of the consolidated fund. He would, in the Committee on Monday, move the omission of the clause. The Bill would - diminish the expenses of coroners at elections, and those gentlemen ought not to demand an increased allowance for travelling. Lord BEAUMONT had intended to oppose the Bill altogether, on account of this clause ; but as the Noble Duke would move for its omission, his objection was greatly diminished. If the clause were retained, be would move that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. The Duke of RICHMOND would move the omission of the clause, but he would not bind himself that the clause would be omitted. If it were not, he would vote against the Bill altogether. It was a money clause, and the House of Commons might not agree to its omission ; and, if not, they would send up another Bill next year. The Marquis of NORMANBY defended the clause. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday, and the Lords summoned. THE COLONIAL POST-OFFICE. This Bill was read a second time. Lord CAMPBELL expressed a hope that it would not be carried through Committee until another Bill on the same subject reached the same stage. The Linen Manufacturers' Bill (Ireland) was read a third time and passed. The Transfer of Property Bill was read a second time. Several Bills on the table were advanced a stage. On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND, the Se lect Committee on the opening of letters in the Post office were requested to print and lay before the House the evidence of Mr. Russell. Their Lordships then adjourned at Half-past Seven o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 19. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Twelve o'clock. RAILWAYS. Mr. GLADSTONE rose, pursuant to notice, to move certain resolutions relating to the deposit of railway sec tions, plans, and bills in the railway department of the Board of Trade, and to reports which might be made thereon. Ile would not make any statement with re• spect to these resolutions, as the resolutions sufficiently explained themselves. They were as follow :-1. That in the case of Railway Bills, if any report made under the authority of the Board of Trade upon any Bill or the objects thereof be laid before the House, such report shall be referred to the Committee on the Bill, and it shall be an instruction to the Committee to consider the matters therein contained. 2. That the 11 th sec- tion of Standing Order 7, requiring the Committee, in the case of a Railway Bill, to report specially on com peting lines, be rescinded. 3. That, in the case of a Railway Bill, the Committee report specially,—Whether any report from the Board of Trade in regard to the Bill, or the objects thereby proposed to be authorised, has been referred by the House to the Committee, and if so, whether any and what recommendations contained in such report have been adopted by the Committee, and whether any and what recommendatians contained in such report have been rejected ; and, in the case of any competing line or lines, the reasons which have induced the Committee to recommend the adoption or rejection of any such competing lines. 4. That, in the case of Railway Bills, a copy of all plans, sections, and books of reference, required by the Orders of the House to be deposited in the office of any clerk of the peace or sheriff clerk, on or be fore the 30th day of November immediately preceding the session of Parliament in which application for the Bill shall be made, shall on or before the same day be deposited in the office of the railway department of the Board of Trade. 5. That, in the case of Railway Bills, a copy of every Bill annexed to a petition be deposited in the office of the railway department of the Board of Trade, on or before the day of presentation of the peti tion to the House. 6. That, in the case of Railway Bills, a filled-up Bill signed by the agent for the Bill as pro posed to be submitted to the Committee on the Bill, and In the case of a re-committed Bill a filled-up Bill as pro posed to be submitted to the Committee on re-committal, be deposited in the office of the railway department of the Board of Trade, at or before the time of giving notice of the meeting :of the Committee on the Bill. 7. That, in the case of Railway Bills, a printed copy of every Bill as amended in Committee, except in cases wherein the Committee shall report the amendments to be merely verbal or literal, be deposited by the agent for the Bill at the office of the railway department of the Board of Trade, three clear days at least before the consideration of the report. 8. That, in the case of Railway Bills, where it is intended to bring up any clause, or to propose any amendment in the report or the consideration of the report, or on the third reading of any Bill, notice shall be given thereof, and a copy of such clause or amendment deposited in the office of the railway department of the Board of Trade on the day previous to such report or consideration of the re port, or third reading: 9. That, in the case of Railway Bills, where amendments made by the House of Lords to any Bill sent up to them are-to be taken into considera tion, a copy of the same be deposited by the agent for the Bill, in the office of the railway department of the Board of Trade, on the day previous to the same being . proposed to be taken into consideration. He should move the omission of the last resolution as it applied to matters of which the House could have no knowledge, and, therefore, it was not necessary to have any resolu tion with respect to them. The resolutions, with the exception of the last, were then agreed to. Mr. PLUMPTRE again intimated his hope that some regulation would be made to prevent railway travelling on the Lord's Day. METROPOLITAN BUILDINGS BILL. On the motion for receiving the report on the Metro politan Buildings Bill, Mr. HAVES was happy to say that the Noble Lord and himself had entered into a contract of peace and amity—(A laugh)—and it would not be necessary, therefure, for him to trouble the House further. The report was then brought up. The Bill was then ordered to be engrossed, and read a third time on Monday. JOINT STOCK COMPANIES' REGISTRATION AND REGULATION BILL On the motion of Mr. GLADSTONE, The House went into Committee on the Joint Stock Companies' Registration and Regulation Bill ; and several verbal amendments were agreed to. On clause 2 being proposed, Sir DENHAM NORREYS asked if it was the inten tion of the Government to extend the Bill to Ireland ? Mr. GI. ADSTONE proposed, on the bringing up the report, to introduce words extending the measure to Ireland. Mr. T. B. C. SMITH thought it extremely desirable that the Bill should be extended to Ireland. The effect of this extension would be to prevent the formation of bubble companies in that country. Mr. HAWES was of opinion that the measure should either be extended to Ireland, or that Irish companies should be entirely exempted from it. As the case stood at present those Irish companies which had establish ments in England would be subject to the operation of this Bill, while those which possessed no such branch establishments would be entirely exempt from its operation. Sir DENHA 11 NORREYS hoped that the attention of Irish Members would be drawn to the subject, and he would therefore suggest to the Right Hon. Gentleman that he should at once state his intentions on that subject. Mr. GLADSTONE, in accordance with the sugges tion of the Hon. Baronet, would at once give notice that on the bringing up of the report he should move the in sertion of words extending the Bill to Ireland. The clause was then agreed to. Clauses 3 to 5 were agreed to, after a few verbal alte rations. Clause 6 was also agreed t,o,with a few verbal amend ments ; as was clause 7. Clauses 8,9, and 10 were agreed to. Clauses 11, 12, and 13 were agreed to. Clause 14 was agreed to, with some verbal amend." ments. Clauses 15 to 18 were agreed to. Clause 19 was agreed to, with a few verbal amend ments, as were also clauses 20, 21, 22, 23, and 24. On clause 25 being proposed, Mr. STUART WORTLEY said this was the regis tration clause, and important as being the first one re lating to existing companies. He wished to ask whether the measure would affect joint-stock mills. Those joint stock mills were very common in the manufacturing dis tricts, and it was by no means uncommon for the smiglgr shareholders to run up accounts, and leave their partners to pay f9r them. If this Bill provided - a remedy for that evil, it would be conferring a great boon upon the manu facturing districts. Mr. GLADSTONE regretted that, in consequence of the difficulty of the subject, be had been obliged to post- THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, JULY 26, 1644. pone the consideration of the relative rights of share holders among themselves until next session. In certain respects the Bill would improve the relations between companies and their shareholders, but it would not remedy the evil of which the Hon. Gentleman com plained. There would be facilities of obtaining judg ments against companies, and this he thought would prove very beneficial. Mr. S. WORTLEY had thought it his duty to call the Right Hon. Gentleman's attention to this subject, and he trusted that some steps would be taken with respect to it next year. The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 26 to 57. The Usher of the Black Rod appeared at the bar, and summoned the House to the bar of the House of Lords, to hear the Royal Assent given by Commission to seve ral Bills (for which see Lords' report). The SPEAKER, accompanied by several Members, then proceeded to the House of Lords. On their return, the House went into Committee, when the remaining clauses were agreed to, and the Bill, with amendments, was ordered to be reported on Tues day next at twelve o'clock. The House resumed. Museum, there was no library that could be called a national library. In Paris there were no less than five public libraries which were open to every class of society from the highest to the lowest, and to the subject of every country. There were four other libraries that were admissible to the public among which were the magazine library and the library of the arsenal, In Russia there were also libraries, all of which were opened to the public. In Saxony there were also public libraries, several of which were in Dresden : and even in Turkey itself, showing that that country was before England in that respect.—(Hear, hear.) Even the British Museum was mot open to the poor man and the citizen, as were the libraries of Paris, for it was necessary to procure an introduction, in order to be admitted into it. He thought that the two propositions which he made were reasonable, and he believed they would be finally assented to. He firmly believed that, if her Majesty's Government took the matter into their serious consideration, they would not only do a great deal of good, but would obtain a great deal of public panegyric. —(Hear, hear.) Lord HOWICK said he concurred in much of what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman. He believed that much remained to be done in the way of provid ing the means of education for the people of this country, because as their population increased in density the facilities of misleading them also increased. It seemed to him to be a source of considerable danger, that great masses of the population were growing up without any due means of instruction or information.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman, that it was not desirable that education should be made a Go vernment measure. There was not in this country suf ficient of mutual toleration among the religious bodies into which the population was divided to ren der it possible that anything like a system of education being formed with advantage, and in this he thought the Dissenters were as much to blame as the Church, and the Church as much as the Dissenters. He thought the Government judged wisely, after the failure of last year, in not renewing a similar experiment again. But he thought they had experience enough to prove that the Government could do a great deal to stimulate education without even a Legislative enactment. What they should aim at was to create a desire for education amongst the people, and to enable parents to distinguish good schools from bad schools. What he should suggest was, that there should be a partial examination of the children of different schools by examiners, to be appointed by the Government, who would give certificates to those who answered best. Though there might be some difficulty at first in getting the children to attend, he thought that a great change , would very soon take place in that respect, when they perceived what great advantage was derived from the possession of certificates. They all 'knew how earnestly the inferior situations of the lower departments of the public service were coveted by persons in the lower ranks of life ; and if a small number of situations, such as those of tide-waiters or_ excisemen, were made the prizes for proficiency at the public examination, it would be very beneficial. This, he was convinced, would make these examinations very successful. By a small sacrifice of patronage on the part of the Government an immense advantage might be obtained. He could not but think that a small portion of. the Government grant for education would be well applied in giving rewards to those schoolmasters who -proved themselves worthy of them. He believed that a comparatively small sum thus applied would go further than anything else to raise the general standard of the qualification of public schoolmasters. He believed this to be a most important subject, and one well worthy 'the attention of the Government. A short pause here ensued, and no one rising to ad dress the House, The SPEAKER proceeded to the next order on the paper, which related to THE STATE TRIALS. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that as the opinion of the Judges had not yet been delivered respecting the trial of Mr.• O'Connell and others, he would postpone until another supply day the question for an address to her Majesty, praying her Majesty to release the prisoners. Mr. WYSE then addressed the House, and hoped that the Government would not let the observations of his Noble Friend pass without expressing what their feel ings were on this important subject. Sir R. PEEL said he did not think the motion of the Hon. Gentleman contemplated the appointment of a separate Minister to preside over the department of public education. There would be difficulties in the way of such an appointment, but the object might be ef fected by the constitution of a department from the office that presided over the internal department of the country. At the same time the duty at present devolved on a part of the Government which paid great atten tion to the. subject ; and he believed as much was ef fected by the Committee of the Privy Council. He held in his hand the report of this body for the year 1843, and he recommended Hon. Members to make themselves acquainted with its contents. He thought they were too much in the habit of making motions for the production of reports on different subjects while they did not make use of all the information already in their possession. This report contained a mass of most mi nute information, and before fresh particulars were pressed for he would recommend Hon. Members to make themselves acquainted with what was before them al ready. The work had been thrown into a form more tempting than a blue book.—(Laughter.) He hoped before they proceeded.to make any new appointments or give new salaries, they would afford a fair trial to the present superintending body. There was an annual vote from the House applied to the purposes of education, and, according to the demands of the country, the Go vernment would call for an increase of that vote, perfectly certain that the House would respond to that just de mand. In one point he fully concurred with the Noble Lord.. He believed that if some of the subordinate patronage of the Government were applied as a reward to young persons of merit, educated in schools at the public expense, he was certain that the loss to a Go vernment would be amply compensated. It was the duty of all Governments to strengthen the foundations on which good governments must rest, and nothing could more conduce to this effect than the applying a portion of the subordinate patronage of the Go vernment in the manner he had stated. There might be some difficuly in the way of appointing young persons immediately to situations in the revenue, on account of the early age at which they quitted the schools, but if it were possible to' effect it, the application of this por tion of the patronage of the Government would be adiantageeus and beneficial. There was great jealousy 'among the people sgainit Government interference with education. It denoted great independence of spirit. Let them not blame it too hastily—it, had its advantages as well as disadvantages, though still it was an obstruction in the way of a sound and uniform system of education. He could assure the House than any suggestion on this subject would receive the consideration of Government. Lord HOWICK said he was perfectly satisfied with the suggestions thrown out by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He hoped he'would consider also the advantage of ap pointing impartial examiners from among the public for the schools, whether this patronage in .the shape of m e and were given or not. Mr. EWART said, he bad referred to the establish ment of. libraries. . Sir ROBERT PEEL could not conceive anything more binding on the rich manufacturers in the different districts,. than assisting in the establishment of libraries for the' working classes. Where there were wealthy manufacturers, 'who had derived thousands and tens of thousand's from the labour of the working classes, he e )uld not imagine a more becoming return than esta blishing inititutions of this kind. He believed in many parts of the country this was the case. Mr.*EWAßT—There was not one town in England where there wasn library open to'the public as they were 'abroad: - : • Sir:R. - PEEL thought the Hon. "Gentlemen, hardly did justice to, the manufacturers of the country. The ex pense was so small, and the effect on the connection be tween rich and poor so beneficial, that he should be sorry to see the Government•stepping in to relieve pri vate exertions from that which had been attended with so good an effect. The interference of the Government would tend to check t4iit exertion. Mr. EWART explained, amid cries of" Question." Sir R. PEEL—I 'know the Hon. Member mentioned schools of design, but surely he said libraries also. The subject then dropped. CASE OF MR. ROLLS. Mr. FITZMAU.RICE then rose to draw the attention of the House to the case of Mr. Joseph Henry Rolls. This gentleman had been for fifteen years a landing waiter in the service of the Customs, and had borne a most irreproachable character. In the . year 1840, Mr. Rolls had overtures made to him by an individual to de f-and the Government. He reported thoseovertures to the Surveyor-General, and made' a memorandum of them at the time, and put it in his desk. Mr. Rolls had stated before the Commissioners of Revenue Inquiry that the, frauds Would not have been committed it the lauding-waiters had had freer access to the board. From 1840 to 1842,- no case of suspicion had occurred, and in that:year Mr. Rolls had been suspended and dis charged. The wording of the charge against Mr. Rolls differed froth the wording, of the other charges: The other officers were Charged with having concealed the overtures made to them from the board, and from their superior officers. The words "superior officers" were 'omitted in the charge against 'Mr. Rolls. He appeared before Mr, Dawson, made his defence, and stated that he' had reported the overtures to his superior officers. The Commissioners reported that the communication which Mr. Rolls had made ought to have been sufficient to have eroased,the suspicions of his ,superior officer. Mr. Rolls,. however, was dismissed, but the:: Commissioners of Revenue Inquiry recommended that 'he should be reinstated ; yet, in May last, the Lords of the Treasury had confirmed his dismissal. He should like to know by whom Mr. Rolls was dismissed ; why by those who never heard a single word of the evidence against him. his s ul eas d ser If Mr. persons,r Rolls he was' guilty, let him be sent' to w ould ask, be proper judg e s o f Newgate ; but if he was innocent, let him be placed is the situation he was in . , before;:' If be was unfit for one situation, surely be was unfit for all, and if such case, en would the inn conclude ocence o by m was the ease, why was hi„ a l a ry kept up.? He firmly be lieved fMr.,;Ryiong that the petiti on o f lis ; and such bei ng t h e a Mr. ' Rolla should be referred to a Select Committee, who were to report thereon, with the evidence, to the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, from the number of orders and notices on the paper, he did not anticipate the motion of the Hon. Member would have come on for discussion. The papers .on the subject had been ordered, but were not yet on the table of.the House. He regretted this the more, because they *paid have represented more clearly the situation of ttle"'lluestion than the Honourable Member had done. There were circumstances in which this gentleman might have formed erroneous opinions, but he was alWayS inclined 'to put 'a lenient construction on his acts. The Right Hon. Gentleman then detailed the circum stances which led to the suspension of Mr. Rolls. When he first communicated to the chairman of the Board of Custom; what had been told him concerning Mr. Rolls, that gentleman wrote back, saying he would as soon suspect him as he would his own brother. The report of the Board of Customs distinctly stated that that degree of confidence could not be reposed in Mr. Rolls which had justified his being restored to the situation which he filled. But his salary was paid up to the period at which the communication was made, and another situation was offered to him, but of a dif ferent character from that which he previously filled. The course pursued was that which was strictly con sistent with the public interest, and with the verdict of the Board of Revenue. He had done all he could to make the removal of Mr. Rolls easy, both with respect to his feelings, and in a pecuniary point of view. All he could say was, that he regretted that his Hon. Friend should use any expression derogatory to the character of the Chairman of the Board of Customs, as he acted in the way which most men acquainted with the facts would have done, and which was for the advantage of the public welfare. Mr. DUNCOMBE did not think justice had been done to the character of Mr. Rolls by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. Rolls had acted throughout with in dependent and manly integrity ; he had communicated the offer to bribe him to the Surveyor-General, but that officer had not, as he should have done, com municated it to the board until the frauds were dis covered, twelve months after. He had been informed that favouritism was going on to a most disgraceful ex tent, and that young and inexperienced officers were I placed over the heads of most experienced, efficient men, who had been for years in her Majesty's service. He thought a strong case for inquiry had been made out, and he hoped the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman would divide the House upon his motion. Sir R. PEEL thought it was unwise in the House to attempt to control the Board of Customs in their patronage. He thought it had not been shown that the Board of Customs had acted in an improper manner in the case which had just been brought under the conside ration of the House. He held in his hand a statement, which had been signed by six members of the Board of Customs, containing grounds why this Mr. Rolls should not be reinstated in his situation. It appeared from the report which had been made by the Committee which had been appointed to investigate the Custom -house frauds, that Mr. Candy, a person who had been engaged in smuggling transactions, had made a proposal to Mr. Rolls, for the purpose of defrauding the Customs. This proposal, it was true, Mr. Rolls had rejected, but he had failed to inform the Board of Customs of the circuin stances. Although there was no imputation on the cha racter of Mr. Rolls, yet circumstances had occurred which rendered it unadvisable to reinstate him in his situation. Under these circumstances, he (Sir R. Peel) hoped the House would not entertain the motion of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman. Mr. HAWES trusted that what had passed in that House would not affect Mr. Rolls in any other appoint ment for which he might apply. Lord G. LENNOX defended the character of Rolls, and said that, in his opinion, the Commissioners of Customs had not sufficiently considered his case. He believed that Mr. Rolls had been withdrawn from his situation by the Board of Customs upon insufficient evidence. Mr. F. T. BARING regretted that allusion had been made to the appointments in the Custom-house. lie thought it was much better to leave such matters to the consideration of the Board of Customs, as they were the only responsible parties. Captain FITZMAURICE, in withdrawing his mo tion, explained that he should have moved for these papers three months ago, had he not understood it was the intention to re-consider the case of Mr. Rolls, with a view to his restoration to office. The motion was then, by leave, withdrawn. INCENDIARY FIRES. Mr. M. GIBSON said he rose, according to the no tice he bad given, to call the attention of the House to the incendiarism now prevalent in the counties of Nor folk, Suffolk, Essex, and Cambridge. He was aware that the fires were happily not so extensive now as they had been a short time ago, but this brief interval of reason furnished no reason whatever for not inquiring into the condition of the population, which appeared to have given rise to this most awful and wicked crime. The extent of the crime, it could not be doubted, had been very great during the last six or eight months, and he was speaking within the mark when he said that considerably more than one hundred fires had occurred during that period in Suffolk alone, and perhaps upwards of two hundred in the adjoining counties to the county of Suffolk. He had been in formed at an office which insured upwards of four mil lions of agricultural property, that their losses by these incendiary fires alone exceeded all their other losses put together; so that if the practice of incendiarism were to continue it was clear it would be necessary for the offices greatly to increase their rates of insurance for agricultural property, or, not doing this, they would be obliged to leave off insuring it at all. They had lately seen such a general display of malig nant feeling, and such a total disregard of the rights of property, that it was become an absolute duty for the Government to probe the matter to the bottom. Now, a variety of causes had been assigned for the discontent from which it had been alleged that this horrible prac tice of incendiarism had originated. The motion he (Mr. Gibson) intended to propose was in effect in the nature of an address to the Crown, calling on the Go vernment "to send down into these counties a Commis sion of trustworthy, discreet, and confidential men, who can be depended on, for the purpose of inquiring into the general condition of the agricultural labourers in those counties, and fer the purpose of ascertaining what are the grievances under which they are supposed to suffer." He (Mr. Gibson) mentioned some days ago to the House that he thought it desirable that a commission should be sent down into the Eastern Counties for the purpose he had mentioned, but the Right Hon. Secretary (Sir James Graham) did not at that time accord with his opinion, and, in fact, stated that he could not agree to the proposition without further consideration. He (Mr. Gibson) now trusted that the further consideration which the Right Hon. Baronet had been enabled to give to the subject would induce him to send down discreet persons to make in quiries upon this subject. He did not suggest that this inquiry should be made through the instrumentality of the Poor-law Commissioners, not but what he had the greatest confidence in those gentlemen; but there was a certain feeling abroad as to the poor-law itself, that he should fear any report made by them upon the subject, would not be satisfactory to the public, who would rather believe that a case was attempted to be made out for the good working of the poor-law rather thin a searching inquiry into the actual condition of the agricultural labourers. When he mentioned this subject on a former occasion, the Right Hon. Gentleman had suggested that it should rest for a time, as there were trials about to take place for this very crime of in cendiarism, and it would be wise to await the results of them. But he (Mr. Gibson) called on the Right Hon. Gentleman to take a statesman's view of this matter rather than that of a police-officer or a mere adminis trator of the law. He called upon him not to take a chief officer's view of such matters, but one becoming a high and resposible adviser of the Crown. What was wanted was this, that the Government should go thoroughly into the depths of the case—that they should probe the existing cause of this crime with a view, if possible, of guarding against it for the future. It might, perhaps, be too much to assume that want and misery were the exciting causes of this crime, when many of those now in charge could not plead this as an ex cuse for their hatred of property ; but nothing was so well known as that where considerable discontent and murmuring prevail, there will be found individuals at all times ready to work out the greatest crimes, though they were not themselves the sufferers from the evils which prevailed. And he (Mr. Gibson) could say from an authority, that both in that House and out of it, would alike command respect—he meant Sir Henry Banbury— that this crime of incendiarism IN as but the symptom of the dangerous and deep discontent which prevailed amongst the labouring population.—(Hear, hear.) That high authority used these very words :--" I must avow my conviction that these incendiary fires are the symp toms of a smouldering and dangerous discontent amongst the rural population."—(Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Gibson) thought he had a right to call on the Govern ment to send down discreet and proper persons to in stitute an inquiry into the allegations which had been made; and lie had a double right to do this, when he recollected the statements which had been made on a former occasion by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, of the necessity of maintaining the comfort and well being of the rural population, and in accomplishing this, even to consent to sacrifice in a great degree the trading and commercial interests of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Honourable Gentle men opposite had contended, on a well-known occasion, that they must maintain their loved and lauded scenes of rural felicity, which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) had declared would at oncecease if the corn-laws were repealed. Reverting, however, to the poor-law, which many asserted to be the cause of those incendiary fires, he (Mr. Gibson) wished to know if they had not these fires when the allowance system was at its height under the old poor-law?—(Hear, hear,) He wanted to know how it was that, under the old poor-law, incen diarism existed to as great an extent as it did now under the new poor-law ?—(Hear, hear.) From this he had a right to conclude, that if the disease were not alto gether of a chronic nature, there was something besides the mode of relief which prompted those most wicked crimes. —(Hear, hear.) Without going, however, into the question of the operation of the poor-law, he (Mr. Gibson) could not help feeling, that there might be some truth in the assertion that the labouring classes were prejudiced against that law ; but he could not bring himself to think it was the main cause of the aleination between the peasantry and the owners and occupiers of land. He said then, as be had said before _in tind out of that House, that there was no class of men in this country more disposed to be indus trious—more disposed to be orderly—more wil ling to bear up manfully against distresses and gt o r cu 1 u f a h l e l a w b a o n u t r e e d rs t o o f p t i h c k e do out s t t r e i e x t . ! ahpmeriwpvalaetssiononfoswgthoaaolndlutdchoine ag ricultural he should go to the labou rers of the eastern counties ; and he could not but feel that the discontent must be of a very deep and serious nature, to induce men of such good natural dispositions to the perpetration of so awful a crime as that of incendiarism; and here he must say that he could not but regret the conduct of an Hon. Gentleman opposite, one of the Members for Norfolk (Mr. Wodehouse), who, on a former occasion overlooking altogether the effect which want and despair have on men's moral percep tions—hadassumed that nothing beneficial could be done towards the suppression of crime, save through the in strumentality of the gibbet, and had found fault with the very proper exercise of the mercy of the Crown, which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir James Graham) had authorised in the case of the two youths found guilty at' one-of the recent assizes for the county of Norfolk. He did not mean to say that the Honourable Gentleman had made such a remark ai he had mentioned, but those who had heard this question would have thought that he questioned the course of the Right Hon. Baronet in re- commending mercy in the case of the two persons to whom he had alluded. He (Mr. M. Gibson) was glad that the Right Hon. Baronet had adopted such a course, because be was convinced the crime was increased by severe penalties. He thought the Hon. Gentleman, before he questioned the prerogative of mercy, ought to have inquired within himself how many of the crimes for which men were convicted the State was responsible_ for, in consequence of bad legislation. No step was taken to remove squalid want and distress, and the result was, that a strong feeling existed among the labouring classes that they were neglected, and that it , l the legislation of that House was for the benefit of the higher and of the middle classes. There was a feeling among the lower classes that the Legislature did riot care for them, and the clergy of the Church had contributed to spread that feeling. What had the Rev. Godolphin Osborne told the Duke of Richmond ? Why, he stated this to him, that if the Legislature would only give the labourers' half the attention that was given to the landlords condition, they would arrive at the conclusion which he bad arrived at, that there was not a single animal used on their farms that suffered so much neglect as the labourer. Was it, therefore, to be wondered at, that a feeling of discontent had greatly increased? It had been said that crime arose in the manufacturing districts from want of pastoral care, Why, these counties to which he had al luded were counties of churches and clergymen.— (Hear, hear.) There was plenty of pastoral care there. But more was wanted than that. Mr. Osborne stated further, that neither the law nor the Gospel could pre vail when men were deprived of the bread which they ought to have, and were treated worse than brutes. He (Mr. M. Gibson) did not think any increase of the churches or of clergymen, or the keeping up the price of corn, would conciliate the labouring classes with the owners of the land, or would ward off those evils which would assuredly come some day. When the limited sur face of this island, and its increased population, was considered, he had to charge gentlemen opposite with being themselves the means of strengthening the preju dices against them among the labouring classes. One reason given for incendiarism was the dislike the la bourer had to machinery. He saw that machinery was taking his labour out of his hands; and what had been the course • adopted by the landlords on that subject? Why, even at public meetings on the corn-law question, when they chose to revile the manufacturer, they en tered into tirades against the use of machinery in manu factories. The labourers, hearing them using these arguments, and finding that machinery was used by the tenants of the landlords greatly to their detriment, they were led to the conclusion that machinery was equally bad to them as it was for the la bourers in manufactories. The landlords had fomented these feelings for party purposes, to raise a prejudice against the manufacturers, and now it had recoiled against themselves they would come forward to advocate the use of it. With respect to wages, the same attempt had been made to delude the poor labourers. They had been told that the farmers could afford to give them better wages if they chose. Now that he (Mr. M. Gibson) denied to be the case. Farmers, generally speaking, could hardly afford to give the wages they did. The landowners stated that the farmers were screwing the labourers down, and that was the cause of the incendiary fires that had taken place. He believed that the control of wages was entirely out of the farmers' power;—whilst the rent of the landlord increased the money would go into landlords' pockets, derived, as it was, from the sweat of the brow of the labourer. The expectations that had been held out by the promise of protection had induced the farmers to give higher rent than they otherwise would have done, and to join in so hazardous an enterprise. He was happy, however, to see that the farmers were beginning to open their eyes. He had been lately into the country, where he had no doubt the Right Hon. Baronet would be glad to be at the present moment, and it was his opinion that the farmers began to think that the Right Honourable Baronet's protection was equivocal, and he (M. M. Gibson) wished to en courage such a feeling. Such he believed to be the feelings of the present time, and he had no doubt that these feelings would tend to good. The less con fidence the farmers had in protection, the more likely were they to conduct their business in a profitable man ner. The agricultural labourers were deeply interested in the prosperity of the farmers, and the prosperity of the farmers would be best consulted by not depending on that House, but on their own exertions. He - trusted that he should be met fairly on this subject by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite. Inquiries had been made by Committees into the state of the Aborigines, the Africans, and even the Esquimaux, but no inquiries had been made into the condition of the agricultural labourer. Some gentlemen got up in that House and stated that there was no distress, while others of high authority had stated that there was deep distress. They had magistrates stating that the working classes looked on with a sort of satisfaction at the terrible destruction of their neighbours' stacks and farms. Mr. Bevan; the chairman of the quarter-sessions, stated that the people at Middleham Hall did all they could to promote the fire, and another person at Hitchara had made a similar statement. The motion with which he intended to conclude he had put into writing, but he did not wish to confine the Right Hon. Baronet to the words he had there used. If he would only send down some gentlemen to inquire into the subject, who were unconnected with the Poor-law Com missioners, or who did not hold any situation that would give them a biased character--if he would do that, he ( Mr. M. Gibson) would agree:to any proposition that would have the effect of carrying out the object he had in view. He would conclude by moving that a humble address to her Majesty, representing to her Majesty that there was reason to believe that the incendiarism now prevalent in the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, and Cambridge, arose from distress, and praying her Majesty to issue a Commission to ascertain what was the cause of that distress. It might be said that this was a partial motion, because it was confined to certain counties. With respect to that, he would only say that, if,'after this inquiry was terminated, it was thought desirable to extend it to all the rural districts of the country, he could have no objection to it ; indeed, he thought it would be most wise to do so. He thought there had been great neglect with respect to the condition of the working classes, and he believed, if they put off this inquiry much longer, they would rue the delay. Sir J. GRAHAM said, after the speech that had just been' delivered by the Hon. Gentleman, the House would see that it was his duty to o ff er some observations. During the time of the delivery of that speech it oc curred to his mind to ask himself what the object of the Honourable Gentleman could be in delivering the senti ments he had done, and he had come to the conclusion that only a deep sense of duty to the public had induced him to make the speech he had done. He had heard with great satisfaction what, if the Hon. Member had not stated, he should have felt it his duty to have com municated to the House, that this crime, though so disgraceful, and having such a tendency to spread, being of a contagious nature, was diminishing. Cer tainly it was an extraordinary period to make that ad mission, and, knowing that fact, that he should have felt it his duty to have addressed to the House speech he had just made. The Hon. Member had told him not to take a chief constable's view of this matter ; he was bound to say, whether the Hon. Member con sidered it a chief constable's duty or not, he thought a discussion of this kind forced upon the attention of Par liament, had a direct tendency to increase the crime.— (Hear, hear.) There was such a thing as fanning the smouldering flame, and it was quite possible that a dis cussion such as the. Hon. Member had introduced that night would cast fuel upon the flames which were almost extinguished.—(Hear, hear.) What good, let him ask, could arise from the various topics the Hon. Member had introduced ? Why, what had been the occupation of that House for the last four or five weeks ? Late and early, morning and evening, th e y h a d b een discussing, with the most intense desire to promote the interests and add to the comforts of the labouring classes, the amendment of that law which provided for their relief; and the Hon, Gentleman ad mitted himself that while they were so employed, he thought that great advocate of the rights and comforts of the poor—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches) — had been seeking elsewhere that gratification which, if' they had consulted merely their own pleasure, they should have sought with him.—(Hear, hear.) He had been absent consulting that enjoyment, while they had been devoting much pains and earnest attention to devising some means by which the misfor tunes of their poorer fellow-subjects might be alleviated. What was the meaning of the comparison the Hon. Member drew between the poor of this country and the inquiries which had been instituted into the state of the Abori gines of various parts of the world—the Hottentots and Esquimaux on which he founded an analogy for the pre sent inquiry ? What was the meaning of the allusion he made to the coldheartedness and selfishness of 'the landed proprietors? Mr. GIBSON-4 quoted the words of a clergyman. Sir JAMES GRAHAM had a great respect for the clergymen of this country, but among that body there might be indiscreet individuals ; there was such a thing—he did not say he admired the character—as a popularity-hunting parson as well as an agitating Member of Parliament.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member had quoted from the letter of a clergy man; but, at a time when anything like excitement re mained, was it likely to add to the peace or order of the country, which it was the doctrine of the religion of which that gentleman was the minister to diffuse among all classes? But the Hon. Gentleman would permit him to tell him, that there was no need for a Committee of Inquiry into the condition of the labouring classes of that district. He (Sir J. Graham) had stated on a former occasion that the assizes now in progress would not fail to throw a distinct light on the crime to whieh he had adverted, 'He had had communi cations from the Judges who were now em ployed in trying the criminals in that district. He had great satisfaction in stating that there was no difficulty in administering the law throughout that district. There was great willingness to disclose the truth I there was great Impartiality on the part of juries, and great dis crimination in their verdicts. The guilty were convicted, and where there was fair cause to doubt the proof's ad duced, the innocent bad had the benefit of that doubt ; and he was told, upon the highest authority, that there was no symptom whatever of a diseased state of society throughout that county, and, generally speaking, the crimes that had been committed there had been traced to personal enmity, or had been committed by very young offenders. He believed he stated the fact—and there were gentlemen present who were better acquainted with it than himself—when he said that, at Chelmsford, several children had been committed for trial on charges of incendiarism, of the ages of 8,9, and 12 years. He had also heard from Huntingdon, that two children, one aged 9, and the other 11, had been convicted of this Crime. He had received a suggestion, to which he was disposed to pay attention, that he should insert in the Bill which had gone up from this House; in reference to the crime which the-Hon. Gentleman had felt it his duty to bring under their, conicreration, a clause inflicting the punishment of whipping in reference to this offence, when committed by juvenile offenders. The House, in re ference to another offence, to which he would not more particularly refer where notoriety was sought bj fli j u d g e e t i nile offenders, did add that penalty to the other.,, t he! by the law. It had been suggested to him Ws' ta t, .. ate “. should follow this example. He was bound to g as , to as far rd ` ce d with regard to these juvenile offenders, could discover, it was bad example that bad P_ . ° ,,„ ro of that effect • but he would repeat that there was . ov ie r o g whatever of a generally diseased state of societY Got le the labouring classes in the district the J - 10n.„ 00a ie man had alluded to. If he could believe that a ti sitste to tee of Inquiry was necessary, he would not h e ,, e aloe appoint one, but at the present moment, with la bo a decreasing, the law being carried into execution, difficulty, those who perpetrated the crime bet" of mitted for trial, and being about to be tried, It d ot under such circumstances that he thought it l o pe to advise the Crown to d e part from the usuaget of administering the law, or to appoint a C ew t to tbe for investigating the circamstarepes. With resp ect to ile other topics the Hon. Gentleman had thought fitsot troduce. it would be enough for him to say Oath* 0. think either the language the Hon. Gentleman ti ge r dressed to the House, or the train of argumen t !„ ur se ° f ment it could be called, whi c h was rather a h eloce invective, eas likely, on the present occasion , L " h ' igi iD any large portion of the House to concur with t hat that the motion he had made. He was quite satis biota neither the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, ncl„ff e t of tion, if it could be carried, would have the l es i r us diminishing the evils which he declared he was u st i t 6d , of alleviating, On the contrary, he was quite 6 _ w oe though it did not become him to impute inotive: tio• is Hon. Gentleman, that he had acted with indiscr i•kel9 l° the course he had taken—o n e w hi c h was more I ,, joe d. produce than to p reven t th e ev il s o f w hi c h he colt; or On these ground s h e s h ou ld o ff er hi s m ost dem o ' position to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman• er sr Mr. WODEHOUSE sa id th ere wou ld be n w , s , to bJe portunities of replying to th e s p eec h o f the Ilen i , v io al Gentleman, of which he s h ou ld no t f a il to avail ' O O He should only address himself, at present, W ts hic servations the Hon. Gentleman made with respec t tiodr self. The Hon. Member had stated that be ( 3 1 1. ' re rogs, house) had arraigned the ex e r c i se o f the royal P o ftle tive of mercy. He was standing in the presene e , o oo. House, and he distinctly deni e d an y such in ;) per The case alluded to was of a peculiar nature. . I. d sea sons were tried for incendiarism, found guilty, s ' tented to fifteen years' transp or t a ti on . A fe sv o tterli afterwards they r ece i ve d a f ree par d on . It I°s cake' impossible t o d en y th a t th a t was a c i rcums tance eetk esti lated to create su r p r i se . B u t w h en t h e H on . Gel 4 d said that he was an ad v o ca t e f or the dungeon, I le „ , leave to tell him that th e more h e inquired into tb " - r ee ki ject the more he would fi n d th at t h ese fires . the the effect of the ill-usage—the impression vli s O lt Hon. Member intended t o convey . A s far as b 1 thtle, county was concerned, th ere was an i ns t a nce v n fires being caused by a c hild b etween 1 1 a nd lt e de old. There was no doubt of his guilt, but solnel, file t was such a favourite with his master and mist° Thre iftt e they could get no co nv i c ti on aga i nst him. •o f another case in Leicestershire of a fire caused by; of tte and dumb man, who had previously been convieted tos ?,,,g crime of cutting the throat of a donkey belen t - ls is! neighbour. Of his guilt there was no doubt ;„ Na morial was presented to the Secretary of bt o gel7, favour, and a poor woman who had given eviclet",, ter him was burned in effigy. It had been proved ti .s b io o/ fires had been caused in the county o f Sussex. 0 00 man who was not at all connected with the abl o t t 1 2 ,1 of that county, being a cooper. He believed t dor a discontent that prevailed among the working„ wit might be materially attributed to the nonse, ll " - ff ioe:',; the Hon. Gentleman and others had in olls. lo` Wi t t bti . circulated among them with respect to wages. a, 0 , Bard to the assertion the Hon. Member had tne - ess" having arraigned the prerogative of mercy, ther e ot or foundation for the ass er ti on , an d h e gave i t his 133 qualified contradiction. bst l r ed Mr. DARBY all u d e d t o t h e quotat i on that eal made from the letter of the Rev. Mr. Osborn e, ,,,; o l l r, fended the Duk e o f Ri c h mond from the charge nerelA' letter made up on hi m , o f b e i ng careless of the lii•o"" of the poor labourers. He could speak froalbej knowledge that no man was more studious of t d o, terests than the Noble Duke. He strongly e°, ; 13 , 1 10, 4 the course the Hon. Member had taken of (-4 7l t e" ' such a discussion, as it might tend to increase mission of the crime. g be if Mr. BRIGHT s a id h e h a d not i ce d ever sinc e de 0 had the honou r o f h o ldi ng a seat i n that H ou se, - 0 ,00 11 0 since he had been in the habit of reading th e b 9 ere e ti of its proceedings in the public journals, that t o ote it a great disinclination to inquire into anything e d i f il l o with the agricultural districts. If such an inci n n a iel l i d proposed, it was sure to he discovered that the o t ot` most inconvenient for it. Why all this sensibi liti t bt r o r • exist was more th an h e could understand, exceP o ferring it to some ques ti ons w i t h w hi c h In a I f or to Gentlemen opposite did not think it advisable t° lo o/ 0 the House. The R ig ht H on. G entleman had la ' r, e ija the absence of th e H on . M em b er for M an chest e al) ; he said, had b een en j oy i ng hi mself i n the co unttli o ult?; he and his colleagues had been employed 0 0 4 ; 5 ' after the int eres t o f t h e poor, in 311. It a the clauses of the Poor-law Amendment A 6 ; 06 .0 51 ; 0 an excellent occupation, and one there was Inn c l• for ; but it was just as useful to the country t ° o 4 0 ie Members of that House to apply their minds ; 0 5 0 , 1 vering what were the true causes of panPF r ' s sche treating pauperism as it existed, and devising, ,lobo. of for relieving it. The of a certain clergyman as a e popularity-1037 .0' parson." Nothing was more easy than t f itO i Right lion. Baronet had ,f o ok. phrases for the purpose of getting rid of, a fl3c aust ifi g any individual might state. But this popularitieeroffot parson happened to be connected with the ar ist w rote fe d the country. He w ro t e — or some b o d y else oat iee iot him—Honourable bef ore hi s name; an d , c it 0 with the aristo crac y an d the Churc9' v itb fl' not likely that he would run away the fle any absurd or vulgar sympathies with G e ntle lation among whom he lived. Any Hon. G etit k - a otk quainted with the county of Dorsetshire must "050 that gentleman was most active and zealous in, 05 0 00 ing the duties of his office, and was most an ll° „a f li „ desire to promote the wellbeing of those an n - ,10, he resided. The Ri g ht H on . G entleman bad ° l,ll the favourable account h e h a d received from „ r ~/ a eo he had sent into th e count i es where these e.`" el taken place;—why no one supposed that w it ° oi not be had ; no one supposed that conviction s 1 „is he obtained ; th ey k new perfectly well that 31of last few w ee k s t h ere h a d not been so Ine ° „, , / as , "e outrages committed, as d u ri ng some previous vi'-ocelt(1101 was it to be pre mise d f rom t h at, that the causenbe rism had been removed ? Why, he knew, if 411 t a4 Hon, Baronet or Hon. Gentlemen connected w h ' re str c d counties did not, that there had been many, < t oll letters sent in various parts of these distre; tr very recent period. It was because his 11° ,,: a ileu,,V did not wish to add to all the alarm that Pr e h 'i g stating the circumstances that had come t° pot v o , ledge during his visit to Suffolk, that he ba d i ie e tl ai tioned them particularly. He believed that of these outrages had not been by any me,_ 911 .. „ 9 bel l and that they might increase rather tni" - , bse v With respect to the question of wages whicZ or folcit alluded to by the Hon. Member for SOLO 51 P' ° could assure him th a t t h ere h ad never beell ii i s fl meeting in an agricultural county at wil ieb if 10(j oc l Friend the M em b er f or Stockport and bin' s " p he" 0 8 tended during the last year, at which th e y •to f ief endeavoured to elucidate the subject of wa s sal meeting, so as t o s h ow t h at the rate of wag ,a -e t be at the disposal of th e f armers, but depen ded the number of the labourers as compare7 le tt, amount of work to b e d one. If the 1/011,:,:i bsr e opposite had, in discussions in tu L t ild," taken an equally wi se course, t h ere "j o iev ii ar teen muoh less ill-feeling between the elnP,:for i , the employ e d th an th ere was at present. 1311 i'pg `/#‘, self, he could say th a t th ere was no man "',4 131 1 , 1 0 1 ' conscience was clearer 'of any imputation ." 0 s endeavoured to stir up the labouring polala,qoe„blictl those by whom they w ere emplo) ed, and °n rtv ie tr they lived. He h a d spo k en of the Hon. Members opposite displayed upou, 55 t t ee questions. Now, at an early period oi, - 0. 1 . - o r, session, a motion had been made for a u° oo 01 A' - Inquiry into the effect of the protection dutr nt ion fi t ", and farm-labourers. How was that 113- f the ', a tr The Right Hon. Gentleman, the President e n a th°",,, of Trade, argued that there were persons 0 , erif t f, appointment of the Committee would have n' sr ter,e able effect, particularly considering the whence the proposition came. The sensibilities 0 1 0 re 5 , /* Gentlemen prevented him from granting t li ; lie ° r t be e though it would have been granted t o any ° "l, - 01 0 ",, e fort i The Right Hon. Baronet stated that this crime b e en :0 0 4 ' so frequent during the last week as it b e "a; Vi c " g and that there was no disposition • th e N oes t that these things shouldinquired beiire in to ,he int°• ips d e p j was a meeting of the inhabitants of Rat t ; e steu,yl,„" ° into consideration the statement which aP.c i , sh, e s ciPi ' Ti mes, and they wished that a Commis si .lone l i t en appointed to inquire into the causes of 1 .00 1 0 That fact was not only a justification of bi s , e e, but a condemnation ; of the Member for -ci e- s srayt l oo ty never sought for an inquiry into their cant, r aali e to i ll n ; one fire every month had occurred in the eclette, ing districts, nothingshould have been left n ed l ey 00 1 : vestigate a state of things so alarming. ' A loe 1 11 , eo oc e ,„ alarming that so m an y fi res were t a king P rice ffe' counties ? Was it no thi ng th a t the in s u w re ere of ty ere suffering ?—that the tenant-farme rs f on e Co 0 9", ing?—and that there was such an increase 0 , w ith , a r4, worst of crimes? And yet they were tatint e l t aeql; ° o ho fering with what was not their concern. 1 3 1 6 ,101 0 c TP o i went hadinstituted no inquiry, the Times an fires' us e A and they differed as to the cause of the s uthe c' e otr o i Times stated that the new poor-law w e e s er itne tre se i• them. The Chronicle said "No ; for tb Ad ia tinder the old law, but the no longer beara:;otereuetibio the labourer was the cause of it." He "' is ° ree,P„ Kent, and he stopped at an inn, kept vi e d...'" person who was a Tory, and always suPY Fore e " . eth "p he tr Hon. Gentleman, the Paymaster of the a tir e d (Mr. Bright) had asked him e there Wa s ears; rat , the statement, that the new poor-law v l w ho li d the labourer ? He replied that no person a°+ anarcitses at less than 25 per cent. could be a gn e f eet ed soe b c l3 fore no person but the farmers could be e e a ade eth ee_ or and that the labourer had no chat o le_ ake b system, for he had a great difficulty t to ' re t he ? re ' pat to meet. But there was a grievance b el . he re wn ov il d which pressed upon the labourer, for ti es ow ri o persons in those counties than there for, and he believed that on the. '11 1 ,.„e the responsibility of such a state of tnitss; ai er ; f), r 0 it 0 ber for Northamptonshire had, o n se was cie wo. oo , accused him of saying that that 110 1 !_ lan e10 •1 8 _,, landowners, and legislated for the benefit c o . . Co but the public must have come to r sa ffo a ls,, o ge: though he had not said so. Rents i ft ,„ ye P ot 0; as high, or higher, than they, ed were r e/ but the return of capital emplo yed d tue e a- o i not much higher novv than it was th en w i do of the labourers was becoming wo og r n se st a 'nd o w t ° a wo r e 9. e e l r ° , s , l was the keenest competition am 11 ° the community, except amongst the CAPITAL PUNISHMENTS. Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from the Liverpool Peace Society, praying for the abolition of the punish. ment of death in all cases. COURTS OF COMMON LAW. On the motion of Mr. CRIPPS, the Courts of Com. mon Law Process Bill, and the Courts of Common Law (Ireland) Bill, went through Committee. The Parish Constables Bill was read a third time. CRIMINAL JUSTICE (IRELAND). Mr. BRIGHT, seeing the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland in his place, wished to direct his attention to a case which had occurred at the recent assizes in Ire land. Two women had been lately found guilty of mur der in the county of Roscommon, and were now left for execution on the 31st of this month. The crime was committed in the month of June, 1843, when, on the Co roner's inquest on the body, a verdict of suicide was returned. Since that time, a woman who slept, or said she slept in the same room where the murder had been committed, had given evidence which proved that the man was murdered and then carried out of the room, when his throat was cut, with the intention of making it appear that he had committed suicide. On the trial the jury deliberated twenty-two hours, and then found the two women guilty of wilful murder; one of them being the wife of the murdered man, and the other her sister. The jury recommended them to mercy; but he was informed that the judge refused to transmit that recommendation to Dub lin. There was reason to believe that the chief witness in the case, was a woman of extremely bad character, and that her evidence was doubtful. Altogether it ap peared that the whol4arty were in a very low state of civilization, for when the occurrence took place the murdered man and his wife slept in one bed, and the woman who gave the evidence was sleeping with her own father in another bed. The third woman, who was a servant, sleeping in an adjoining room to which there was no door. It appeared that all of them were of a class that rendered it necessary to receive their evidence with great caution. Under all circumstances, it seemed one of those cases worthy the attention of Government. If the man was murdered an inquiry ought to be made into the conduct of the coroner, as it was stated that he examined but one wit ness, and called no surgeon—the inquest being thus of a most unsatisfactory character. Lord ELIOT thought the object of the Hon. Gentle man would have been equally well attained, had he merely called his attention to the matter. He could not help thinking he had rather exceeded the limits allowed in asking questions. He must also observe that the coroner was not accountable to the Government ; at the same time, he could assure the Hon. Gentleman that the circumstances of the trial should have his best attention. PRIVY COUNCIL BILL. Lord HOWICK said, he observed that the Privy Council Bill stood on the orders of the day for the third reading that evening. He understood that this Bill almost re-modelled the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and provided a considerable salary for a chief judge. He wished to ask whether the third reading would be moved that night, and whether the Bill was supported by her Majesty's Government. Sir J. GRAHAM said he had read the Bill, which he did not think the Noble Lord could have done, and he could state that there was no clause in it fixing such a salary. Nor should he (Sir J. Graham) be prepared to support a Bill that would do so. The other arrange ments of the Bill were entirely of a technical nature, and to these the Government was prepared to give its assent. He was therefore disposed to move the third reading ; but if the Noble Lord objected to it, he should not move it at any hour at which the Noble Lord might be unable to attend. Lord HOWICK was aware that the clauses fixing the salary were not printed in this Bill, but they were printed in the Bill as it stood in another place. Sir J. GRAHAM said it was not intended to move any clause in that House that was not in the Bill. Lord HOWICK said it was extremely objectionable, that at so late a period of the session, when all the prin cipal gentlemen of the House connected with the legal profession were necessarily absent en circuit, that such a Bill as this should be moved and carried:; they had be fore had experience of the great impropriety of legal bills been brought in and carried through at this late period of the session. Sir J. GRAHAM understood that the Bill had been proposed with the unanimous consent of the Judges of the Privy Council ; and under these circumstances, he hoped it would not be opposed. MEDICAL PROFESSION. Mr. PHILIP HOWARD asked the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Home Secretary, if he intended to bring in any Bill for the regulation of the medical pro fession? Sir J. GRAHAM said he still intended to introduce a Bill on this subject, but he would not press it this session. Sir R. PEEL moved that the House at its rising do adjourn till Monday.—Agreed to. SINKING FUND. On the motion of Mr. WODEHOUSE, certain returns relating to the sinking fund were ordered to be made. BRA SSINGTON INCORPORATION. Mr. COLVILE gave notice that he should, on Mon day next, move that it be an instruction to the, Committee on the Gilbert Unions that they should ekamine wit nesses from the Brassineton Incorporations. EDUCATION. On the motion that the order of the day'be read for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. EWART rose for the purpose of calling the at tention of the House to the expediency of a statement being made by the Government respecting the disposal and the results of the outlay of public money voted for the purposes of education ; arid also to the expe diency of promoting the formation ,of public libraries in the metropolis and provincial towns. He was anxious to offer a few observations to the House on this subject. In voting the army estimates, the navy estimates, and the Ordinance estimates, it was always customary for those who brought forward those estimates to make a statement as to the condition of their several departments. He thought that was a precedent which ought to be followed in bringing forward the esti mates on the subject of education. He thought they ought not only to have a statement as to the general application of the funds, but a statement of, the prospects of each particular department. They should have before them a statement of what had been done in each particular department of education. They had estimates proposed for various establishmeuts;, they had estimates for the Schools of Design, for the Universities, for the National Gallery, and tOr - other inL stitutions of a similar nature. That was an additional reason why they should have a statement on the subject on the part of the Crown. Education had, of late years,' been extended into the factory system, to the system of prison discipline, and it had formed portions, more or less, of Bills for the amendment of the poor-law. Now, the Go vernment ought to give them an insight into the alterations which had taken place in the educational establishments during the past year, and into the prospect of probable improvement. Among the sites for education there was on; for the School of Design, an institution of the greatest importance to the arts and manufactures of this country. He rejoiced to observe that these Schools of Design were spreading through the manufacturing dis tricts, and he hoped the time was not far distant when the school in London would be a focus from which the other schools might radiate so as to spread information through the country. The School of Design in London was gradually assuming a more central and normal character, and he trusted that all the schools in the manufactur ing districts would become subordinate to the School of Design in London. These schools were of the utmost importance, not only to the arts, but to the commerce and manufactures of the country. There was also the general vote for education. It was an op probrium to the country in general that a ♦ote of 30,000/. only had been devoted to that purpose, and he understood that this year there would be a reduction on preceding years. IsTow, it was important that they should have an explanation from the Govern ment as to how that sum had been divided—whether it had been equally divided among all religious denomina tions, or had been confined to the British and Foreign and National School Societies. Before they had left office they had determined to give portions of the grant to certain schools, without reference to those two societies. They ought to have some explanation on this subject from some member of the Government. There was another most important subject on which they ought to have some explanation. There had been vast sums left by the pious bequests of our ancestors, which had been at first appropriated and afterwards misappropriated, in the grammar schools of the country. That was a question which must eventually come under the consideration of the Govermennt. They ought to state annually what steps bad been taken to place those schools on a proper foundation. He knew not why education, the most important of all things, the preventative of crime, that which ought to be antecedent to all other improvements, should not receive the first consideration of any Government in this country, yet that had hitherto been the last. They had had no statement made by a Minister of the Crown on the sub ject of education ; yet, in despotic Governments, an an nual report was always laid before the Minister of the Crown he serves. He maintained that it would be better for the public and more constitutional, if her Majesty's Government adopted the plain English mode of giving full explanation on tiat subject. He was aware that this was a subject to begapproached with delicacy in a free country like England. He believed it would be strictly impossible to make education in this country a strictly Govermental measure, but though they could not con trol the education of the people of this country theymight do much to assist it. He was always of opinion that though the people of this - country in educatio,n would not submit to control, yet that much might be' done to forward it. He thought it a disgraceful thing that there was no public library in this country L there was no other nation in which such institutions did not exist. In this country, with the exoepliou of the British It ( tr E po tiu till hi tr fix La ha fot fai I*. MI toi Pa na Ern Pli