The Sun. — London, England, 1839-03-02 00:00:00

every facility f or procur i ng t h em. I t was d ue to t h e Irish public, who viewed with jealousy the proceedings of the Irish Commissioners, and it was also due to the petitionrrs, that they Amid have an opportunity, either in a Select Committee or at the bar of the House, of proving their allegations. He would now bring up the petition. Lord MORPETH said that he thought the best course would be to go into Committee, and he would then state what the intentions of Government were.— (Hear, hear.) It was no doubt true that the appoint ment of the Railway Cominission must necessarily throw some obstacles in the way of Companies, which had already procured Acts of Parliament. That Corn niiishn was appointed on the unanimous address of the House, and as the Hon. Gentleman had stated, their Report only came into the hands of Members in the month of July last. A very long space therefore bad not elapsed before the Government were prepared to come fonvatA and state their intentions. He did not think it would have answered the purpose of the public convenience, if the Government had stated their object to private individu its before announcing it to Perlis en-nt.—( I-fear, hear.) Of course any other observa tions which he had to make, it would be his duty to make in Committee, and as to the hearings of ;be plan on the great Central Irish Railway, that would i3e more apparent when they came to consider the mat- r in Committee. Mr. HODGSON HINDE said this was a question , hich excited great interest on this side of the water, as 7cll as in Ireland. The House was aware that two :4 ,, ,5'0 , s ago a Committee of this House had sat, of xh:c!i the President of the Board of Trade was Chair- II :a. The ItJportof that Committee, it was well un- derstood, was satisfactory to the Members of the Go vermw,tt. In the motion which he brought forward last y:•nr, the President of the Board of Trade quoted from that Committee. Now nothing could be more de cided titan the terms in which that Committee reported any proposals which could emanate from the Nohl Lord in a Committee of this House. He begged to c.. 11 the attention of the House to the Report. rrir! Hon. Gentlemen hero read some passages from it.] No sourer had the Committer determined upon their 'rep;:rt, than the Chancellor of the Exchequer came lowa to• the House and made a motion for such an ilddess to h;s late Majesty. At that time he (Mr. H. 'Elide) firmly b?lievea that that address was in con- C , ren;ty with the 1t port, but that it was not in vonfor nlity with the Report, he thought no Hon. Gentle eial deny. He would ask whether the House Lat ink; done one act contrary to the resolution of the Corni2•:ttee, were to do another by calling upon the Go : vernment to decide upon the mode in which railway eolunnitc dtioa.s should take place. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, had quoted the Report against him,.and he had now to ask that Right Hon. Gentleman whether that Report was to be thrown to the winds because the Hon. Member !:)r Deblia had pressed the Government.—(Hear.) tlp_t House sanctioned such a mode of proceeding there wonld be one measure of justice for Ireland, and another fi)r Scotland, and he should take the sense of the House upon the subject on its going into Com- Mr. H. GRATTAN said that the statement of the Huacurable and Learned Member opposite, that the lionr,ur4ble and Learned Member for Dublin had )ress,A the Government in the Committee, was owl the usual elap-traps. The fact was that if any per ion had pressed the Government is the Committee it Limself (Mr. Grattan). And if his recollection the Hon. Member for Dublin did not attend Committee.—( Hear.) He would recommend Hon. q,inhors on the other Bide of the House to have some eciieg s of icgard for independent and Hon. Members side of the House on which he had the honour o sit.—(Hear.) Mr. HODGSON HINDE said that when he :hit the Hon. Member for Dublin had pressed :le Government, he stated it not only as a matter of :Ict, of which he had been informed, but as a fact com ucder his own knowled4e, for the Hon. Member for lablin had that evening presented petitions on the sub 2ct to which he had referred. Mr. O'CONNELL said that the allusion of the lion. :Member opposite was most extraordinary. - HE ( 'Air. O'Connell) had certainly presented a petition that night from his constituents in favour of a general railway nleastye. Did the Honourable Gentleman call that pressing upon the Government ?—( Hear, hear.) So far from his interfering with the Government, the `act w,ts directly the reverse. (Hear, hear.) He had attended a meeting of his constituents in Dub lit), at which the Lord Mayor presided, and at which also Lord Vesci attended. At that meeting there was an oppoqtion, but he (Mr. O'Connell persuaded the meeting to accede to the petition, and from that hour to tl:e present, he had had no communication whatever with the Government upon the subject.—(Hear.) NGw, really he must say that it was unworthy of the 4100. Gentleman, as it was unbecoming the station which he occupied, to make use of such expressions re garding him. Mr. HODGSON HINDE said the lion. and Learned Gentleman had accused him of having made use of expressions which were unworthy and unbe coming. Now, he would wish to know what those ex pressions were to which the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman had alluded.—(Hear, hear.) . His accusation was not against the Hon' . and Learned Gentleman for having acted in the way in which he had done, but it was against her Majesty's Government that they had been actuated in their decision by the opinions of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and had on this question given one measure of justice to Ireland and another to ' rest of the kingdom.—(Cheers.) He would con clude by moving as an amendment that that part of the Report of Railway Committees, relating to Ireland, be now read. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I rise for the purpose of replying to the accusation of the Hon. Member. The charge against the Government is, that we did not look to the merits of the question, that our plan is brought forward because it was suggested by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin.—(Cries of No, no," from the Opposition benches, and " Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) That is the accusation, as I understand it. Not against the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, but against her Majesty's Govern ment.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I will state, as far as I ha ve b een concerned, what I have done in this transaction. There was brought to me an address from the House of Lords, whether suggested by the Learned Member for Dublin or not I do not know.— (Laughter.) An address was brought to me from the House of Peers to his late Majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to appoint a Commission upon tire subject of Railways in Ireland. Sir, I con sulted , not with the Learned Member for Dublin, but with various persons connected with Government, and it appeared to me and to my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that Mr. Griffin, a gentleman well acquainted with Ireland, and wiih these subjects—that Colonel Burgoyne, at the head of Public Works In Ireland—that Mr. Barlow, teacher of Mathematics at Woolwich— a gentleman who had been consulted with regard to Railways in England, and that Mr. Drummond, whose scientific attainments, (waterer his political opinions may be) cannot b e denied—(Hear, hear)—that it would be very prope r that these gentlemen should inquire into the subject.—(Hear.) Well, Sir, these gentlemen were appointed a Commission to investigate the sub ject, and they did so with very great labour and as siduity, not attending to party feelings—but applying that science and that knowledge upon which they had made a report to the House last year, and which does contain as much knowledge and information and re seArch upon these subjects as was ever presented in a public document.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") and therefore I must say for these gentlemen that at least they justified the selection which we had made, ;n consequence, in the first instance, of an Address from the House of Peers.—(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I think, upon this Report, that it was the bounden duty of the Government to consider what was the best propo sition which they could make to Parliament for the benefit of Ireland and of the whole community.—( Hear, hear.) My Noble Friend proposes to go into Com mittee, in order to state what that proposition is, and to give his reasons for it ; and I do not think this House ought to be deterred from hearing the arguments of my Noble Friend by any vague imputations upon the Go vernment that we have not considered the real merits of the question—that we have not considered the scientific Report of the Commissioners—but that we were listening to suggestions from others, for any paltry purpose— which I utterly disclaim and despise.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. HODGSON HINDE said that having made a charge against the Government. he might be allowed to state what that charge was. When he last Session made a proposition upon this subject, it was thought a sufficient answer to that proposition, that it was contrary to the Report ; and now the Government had brought forward a measure contrary to that Report, which was to be attributed to the influence of the Learned Member for Dublin. Colonel PERCIVAL said there was great suspicion in Ireland as to the Report of the Commission, though admitted that to the members of that Commission no susia..io n could attach. He wished to call the atten tion of the Noble Lord to this circumstance, that in the original Commission there were these words :—" To ascertain the best lines between any of the principal Places in Ireland which it may be most desirable to con nect by railways, and for which Joint-stock Companies may be willing hereafter to work." These words were omitted from the Commission issued" by her Majesty. The omission was calculated to increase the suspicion which existed in Ireland, and he wished the Noble Lord to explain it, and why it was that the ex t;na've distri ct w i th which he (Colonel Percival)- u as conne c t e d s h ould have been thrown overboard by the 6 n Commissioners ostensibly because there were canals, ibeuvote7tbat ci rcumstance only showed that there was a Lloereuntry fitted for R a il roads. d J. RUSSELL said he confessed that he could of explai n the omission of the words referred to. Uri ' eq. he was responsible for the original Commis it: and for its renewa l . He did not remember that his attention had been called to any alteration, bu' he would inquire, and endeavour to satisfy the Hon. and Gallant Member.—(Hear, hear.) fore I think the intervention by the State, which has been wholly unnecessary in England, must be eminently called for in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But if we go from England to countries united and connected with her, what do we find the course pursued to have Mr. REDINGTON said a few words, of which we could only understand the purport to be, that the Com mittee alluded to by Mr. Hodgson Hinde, referred only to Great Britain. After some further discussion, the House went into Committee. been ? The sum voted for the Caledonian canal is 953,000/. ; for Highland roads, 250,000/. ; for military roads, 241,000/., and so forth. So that all the sums voted, and prudently voted, will, I think, show that something to be voted for a prudent appropriation in Ireland will not be unreasonable—l do not say for the gratuitous assistance, but for the intervention of the State. It does seem to have been part of the system of the policy of this country that where opulence was scanty, and where energy was yet unfledged, for Mi nisters, to adopt measures to forward the interests of those parts, and to afford facilities. I think it will be found that all the facilities which have been given to intercourse and communication have an enormous ten dency to reproduce and multiply themselves. There are some most striking instances of this given in the Re port of the Railway Commissioners with respect both to land and water carriage. I shall not trouble the House with any of them, except some that relate to railways, which is the question under consideration. I find it stated with reference to the increase of traffic which has been occasioned by making railways, that upon the Stockton and Darling ton line, 4,000 passengers a year travelled before that railway was made, and that now the number exceeds 16,000. On the Bolton line the number now is 2,500 per week, whereas the number of coach pas sengers used to be not more than 300. On the New castle and Carlisle road prior to the railway, the .whole number of persons carried by public coaches was about 341 per week, the distance Ining 47 miles, now .they are 250 per day. On the Liverpool and Manchester line they were 400 per day, or 146,000 a year, whereas now they are 500.000. Precisely the same results were shown from railways abroad. Even in Ireland upon the railway between Dublin and Kng sten which has been in operation for three years Only, and where the price is not less than by other convey ances—where the distance is very short, and not much time saved, yet many more persons travel between those places now than ever did before. There are other de tails showing the great increase of communication, and intercourse which has been introduced to places by the affording of other facilities, such as by steam navigation. However, I do not desire to overwhelm the House with documents, but there is proof here of the most marvellou; manner in which these additional means of communication with surrounding districts has benefited the country, and a degree of benefit which could not have been anticipated by the moil sanguine projectors or original inventors.—( Hear, hear.) But if such are the benefits which have resulted from opening new modes of intercourse, it may be asked, why not leave the whole matter to private enterprise, which would se cure such promising results? My answer to that is, that although I consider it undoubted that the introduc tion of a well constructed railroad system into Ireland would be of most material benefit to the . distritita through which, and places to which, they were carried, and to the country generally, it by no means follows it would hold forth a promise of sufficient remuneration to ensure the undertaking by private individuals. There may be portions of lines in some of them to be made, as well as portions under Acts already obtained, that might afford remuneration sufficient to any Company, or any few individuals, to undertake them ; but I doubt if that could secure a sufficient consideration for what Ireland . most wants and what, would mostly benefit lier—a system of railway lines carried on to a great ex tent from the metropolis to the sea coast, from shore to shore, connecting the extremities of Ireland— connecting the British Channel with the Atlantic, and to use lofty, though not inappropriate terms, connecting the old world with the new. What are the calculations which the Commissioners have made? and here let me say, once for all, that I cannot pretend to assert that those calculations are to be considered as infallible, or that the House ought to repose implicit trust in them— probably they will be found, ike all other human matters, liable to some mistake and error—but while I admit this, 1 yet profess to build on those calculations. With respect to the Commissioners themselves, I have the strongest opinion of their competency and ability.— (Hear, hear.) I have the most unswerving and undi viding opinion of their integrity and impartiality. I am not aware that in any essential point any material error has as yet been established against them ; therefore, ad mitting, as I do, that they may be liable to mistake, and that they may have in such a vast series of calcu lations committed some errors, yet I feel that no labour I could have given to the subject could have made me more able to form juster calculations than they have arrived at ; and with respect to others who may be inclined to impugn them, I shall almost be disposed to entertain the same views. Now, their calculation is that some portions of the line they have recommended would carry with them a profit of five per cent., but the other lines which it would be equally necessary to carry into effect would not produce more than seven-tenths of an unit per cent. Now if we were to undertake only those parts of the lines that would be likely to bear profit there would be great dif ficulty in even getting those other parts undertaken. At the great meeting held in Dublin, at which men of all parties attended—at which its Hon. and Learned Representative attended—and, if I mistake not, the re quisition for the meeting was signed by the Right Hon. and Learned Recorder—it was resolved that it appeared to that meeting the establishment of any such compre hensive system of railways as that contemplated could not, under existing circumstances, be effected by private capital and enterprise, and that it became the duty of the Government to take the great national work into its own hands. [The Noble Lord then read the remainder of the resolutions agreed to at the meeting ; also reso lutions of the same spirit, agreed to at a meeting of the Great Northern England Railway ; and the resolutions agreed to at a meeting of the landed proprietors and inhabitants of Cahir, at which the Earl of Glengal was in the Chair.] I do not at all intend, and it is very far from my wish, to impeach on this occasion the conduct of any Railway Companies or any Railway Lord MORPETH rose and said—Now that I am permitted to go into the Committee, and to state what the intentions of the Government are, it may be conve nient for our subsequent proceedings, and at all events just to the Government, and to the conduct which it has pre viously pursued, to state what course I intend to pur sue. I feel conscious that the proposition which lam about to submit to the House, notwithstanding the indig nation which has ru ffl ed the short preliminary discussion, can have no tendency or effect to lead to any political feeling, inasmuch as it has for its sole objact that which I am sure is common to all parties both within and without the House, to promote the effectual, and, if I may use the term, the material benefit of the Irish nation. Yet 1 confess that I do feel anxious, and I am not aware that on any pre vious occasion have I ever felt more of the suspense and anxiety which would naturally accompany the introduction of the most ambigurrusand tempestuous party warfare. This feeling I attribute partly to my own con viction of the great importance of the subject and of the steps which I propose to found on it, but still more from my most unfeigned sense of the slight and inadequate justice which I can render to it, in asmuch as this is a subject, considering the great extent, and variety, and complexity of all its various bearings, which might well claim and would justly deserve the most unvaried and unoccupied attention, while 1 have been only able to confer on it the very spare gleinings and refuse of a scanty leisure. However, Sir, I feel that the circumstances under which I bring this propo sition forward will materially tend to relieve the of much orthe burden of this responsibility. This responsibility is well known to almost every Hon. Member whom I have the honour to address. Mr. lIU ME—We don't hear a word of what the Noble Lord says. Lord INIORPETH—In consequence of what I have already stated this evening, and of tho address unani mouhly voted by the Houses of Parliament, a Com mission was appointed by his late Majesty, which was subsequently renewed in this reign, and with re g ird to what has been alluded to by the Ho nouri.ble and Gallant Member opposite, I must say that I certainly am not aware that its proceedings were affected by any designed interference on the part of the. Government, and I may fairly state that the Go vernment never used the slightest interference with these Commissioners. That Commission was appointed to inquire into the whole subject of Irish railroads, and it was composed of persons who, as has been stated by my Noble Friend on the other side of the House, were received with a very general feeling of assent on the part of the House ; and as I believe I shall be borne out by all competent contemporary testimony, were above all exception with regard to the task which had been particularly confided to them.—(Hear, hear.) However, these qualifications are best tested by the re port which they had made. Now, Sir, my own judgment on that document might certainly not be reckoned disinteested, and more certainly still, it would be worth very little.—( A laugh.) Nor, Sir, can I pretend ' that it was received with universal approval, or with undivided favour. On the contrary, immediately at the time of its appearance there were various and repeated attacks made upon it, and the opposition proceeded from various quarters in contravention of the statements and recommendations which it contained, and when the llon. Gentleman sa3 s that we adopt therecommenda- tion which we this night propose to the House in con sequence of the pressure put upon us by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, I can only observe, in oppo sition to that statement,that the only thing I ever heard in public or private from my Hon. and Learned Friend, was a condemnation expressed in this House of the re port on his first inspection of it. I am glad to find that a minuter inspection and examination of its contents caused him to modify his original opinion. While I admit that on. the first appearance of this Report it was met from various quarters with the same demonstrations of hostility, yet on a closer;examination it seems, by some coincidence or other, these demonstrations have generally, if not exclusively proceeded from quarters and from persons whose interests were 'embarked in the prosecution of schemes which were liable to be affected by that Report, and who thought that their particular interests would not be sufVciently attended to. However that may be, true it is that it may be fairly stated that the Report we are now considering has risen gradually but steadily and surely in the esti mation of all impartial and competent judges. It is receiving fresh attestation almost daily in its favour, and opposing parties to it are now waxine , weaker and weaker. Various meetings have been held in all parts of Ireland—in the metropolis—in the largest cities, and in various parts of the country, attended by, men of all pursuits and all political feelings, who have expressly called upon Governpent to act in furtherance of the recommendation of the Commissioners. I need not give a catalogue of all the meetings that have been held, but amongst other documents which I have, is an address whic has been presented to her Majesty by a great body of the Peers of Ireland, headed by the Duke of Leinster, who expressed themselves deeply measure is undoubtedly produced by local circumstances peculiar to this country itself ; but let us inquire what it is that causes so immense a disproportion between the respective estimates of England and Belgium. Now, Sir, I think that the cases of Belgium and Ireland are parallel, as near as can be—what is applicable to one, is, in my opinion, to the other. In this country the great and main item of expense is, most undoubtedly, the im mense expense attendant upon passing Bills through Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) In many cases, it is stated that the charge for obtaining the Bill alone, and even where the lines have been very long, has exceeded 1,000/. per mile. The London and Birmingham Com pany were at an expense, for passing their Bill through the Houses of Parliament, of no less a sum than 72,8681. The Great Western Company incurred a cost of 82,7101. for the same purpose. The Lon don and Southampton, 39,000/. ; the Midland Coun ties', 28,000/. ; the Great North of England, 20,0001. ; the Grand Junction,.22,oool. In fact, the cost of passing eight Railway Bills through Parliament amounted to no less a sum than 311,595. Now make the contrast, the average sum for obtaining the same privilege in Belgium is only 729/.—( Hear, hear.) The expense attending upon the London and Brighton Bills before the House was so great as almost to exceed belief. Another great item of expense is the enormous sums paid to persons whose land is taken by the Companies, and who are in possession of Parliamentary influence.—(Cheers.) The statement made by the Hon. Member for Lancashire la-a night was a most important one, and the House ought on this occasion to take it into their most serious msideration. From that statement it was shown that persons had at times received ten times the value of their land to secure the Parliamentary influenco they en joyed. There is another case on record, and as it has been already before a Court of Law, I have no hesitation in referring to it. In that case a Nobleman was strenu ously opposed to the passing of a Railway Bill, because the line would run through his estate, but his opposition was bought off by a sum of 20,0001. being paid him for his land, with a promise of 100,0001. as compensation for the injury done to his estate. In the present in stence I am most happy to inform the House, that on the line we propose to go, many lauded proprietors have came forward, and because they are perfectly aware that their districts will be much benefited by the penetration of a railway, have offered their land to the Government free of all cost. Amongst others I may mention the mimes of the Duke of Leinster and the Earl of Kings toern, and many others have alio come 'forward and offered their land on the same terms, on condition that the undertaking is superintended 6y Government. I sin not prepared to say that the parties on the other lines—indeed I know that the Firth s on private lines— will not act in so beneficent a manner. Another serious extravagance in private lands is the pushing the works for ward, which, if the undertaking was under the real super intendance of Government, would be entirely done away svt.h. But the greatest reason of all why the manage rn rnt of such an undertaking should be in the State, especially in a poor and indigent country—the greatest advantage is, that whereas private individuals or Corn panics, of course, as it would be their interest—and as beg as human nature remains what it is, the case would be the same—they will try to raise their profits to their ut most stretch.—( Hear, hear.) The Government now Imposes to limit the rate of profit to the necessary and legitimate expenses of the undertaking. It is very striking to perceive how the cheapness of fares produces and multiplies travelling. The expe rience of the railway system itself compared with turn pike roads proves that as fares are reduced and accom rnadation extended traffic will more than proportionately increase. —(The Noble Lord then referred to an article in the " Statistical Journal," in which a striking con tr Ist is drawn between the number of passengers on Ore Liverpool and Manchester Rail way,and on the line of rail- roads in Belgium greatly to the advantage of the latter.) Having now sufficiently stated the views I entertain of the general principles by which I wish to be guided, I will now mentions very shortly the propositions which I am about to submit to the consideration of the House, and which I hope they will at least give me leave to em body in a Bill, which will of course be submitted to the !nature consideration of Parliament. We do not propose interested in the interests of Ireland, and who warnily- recommended the adoption of some such course as re commended by the Commissioners.---(Here the Noble Lord mat; the address). This at once con veys the knowledge to the House that all parties, whatever their political opinions may be, concur in imploring the Government to prosecute a work which .vill be for the common advantage of their coun try. We thus thought there was a sufficient assent and authority on the part of the Irish people to justify the Government to act in accordance with what the Commissioners have pointed out. But I am aware this is not a sufficient motive to recommend that to the adoption of the imperial Legislature, unless it shall ap pear to them that the positions of that Report are founded in truth, and that its recommendations are based in policy ; and my object in standing up in the place I haye in the Cabinet is, to state that those positions so recommended, not of course comprising every single deduction, or embracing every statement contained in that Report, but to say that its main sub stance and the general tenor of the course recom mended is sound, just, proper, and politic. There are many of the p-opositions it contains, which, I be lieve, all will take for granted at once. I t would be a loss of time at this period of Railway enterprises, to labour to prove tint they are the most wonderful and efficient means of promoting public convenience and increasing national wealth. It would be almost superfluous to attempt to prove that their introduction into Ireland, taken by itself would be of singular advan tage to that country. The point for our consideration is how is that introduction to be obtained. Can we leave . . . . concerns in England. On the. contrary, I think the country is immensely indebted to the energy, the skill, and the enterprise they have displayed ; and I profess myself friendly to railroad undertakings in every shape _ ... and every form.—(Hear.) Still I believe it is thought, and the opinion is gaining ground, that Parliament in the first instance did somewhat blindly and precipitately throw the whole control and superintendence, and legis lation, in fact, of these vast concerns, which are fast gathering into a monopoly of communication throughout the country—(Hear)—into the hands of private and irresponsible individuals ; and that it is now beginning to be found, that great as the advantages are which have resulted from these undertakings, yet there are among them to be found some of those abuses and imperfections which monopoly and irresponsibility, by a law of nature, seemed to create. The ground is comparatively open to us in Ireland, and I would upon that new field, having laboured to prove that the circumstances of Ire land do justify—l wouid even venture to say, do call for the intervention of the Legislature—l will employ that intervention in the introduction of this great and marvellous agency of moral improvements, reserved for the skill and energy of our own day. I would introduce it in its most complete and efficient form, relieved from all the imperfections and abuses which inevitably ac company the first experiment—adopting all the various and multiplied improvements and suggestions which have been subsequently supplied, and which are now every day in the course of being supplied—disembarassing it from the expected delays attendant on the ordi nary Parliamentary proceedings, and to have it executed under competent controul by persons selected exclu sively from their eminent fitness and ability, with that precision, regularity, and order which a public depart ment perhaps can alone exact and ensure. The course it to the energies of private enterprise and competition, as has been wholly done in Englund, or shall we call in the assistance—the temporary assistance, if you please —the intervention of the State. Now, I admit that that which may be applicable to this part of the country may not be quite the same to Ireland ; and I admit also, that there is a Report in this House, which does equally seem to discourage such undertakings in Ire land ; but a very clear distinction is made in that report between the case of Great Britain and the case of Ireland ; and in respect to Ireland it must be remembered that the recommendations of the Committee have been thrown overboard in a great degree by the Commissioners for Rail ways in Ireland, under a Commission, which was adopted unanimously by the other House of Parlia ment, and acceded to by a great part of this. The question is, whether a course that may be consistent with principles of political economy as applied solely to England, is of equal force when it is attempted to be applied to Ireland. Now, the principle of these under takings being left solely to private interprise, may re quire some modification. Yet I do not wish a quarrel with the principle of non-intervention as applied to England, or to any country in a state of great advance ment, and in the possession of the most opulent re sources. My question is, is Ireland in a similar state Can it be said that it has powerful means of resources, and that it is bursting with opulence? I was taunted only last. night with not having pressed this sufficiently on the consideration of the House. I think, that so far from being singular in opinion that that which would not be proper for a country circumstanced as Ireland, but which would be proper for a country quite differ ently circumstanced to Ireland, I should be quite the other way ; but th:s is a question rather to be solved by facts than theories. And is England in want of the intervention of the State? Look for a moment over the surface, if you are to answer that question, and then contrast it with the surface of Ireland. Just present to your own minds the respective pictures of the two coun tries ; the one with her soil matured by all proper pro ce3ses of agriculture, bringing through countless channels its' products—into its manufactories, its workshops, with its clusters gathering around every river, and its forests of masts thickening in evrsry port ; the other with a soil yet more fertile, but scantily and inadequately cultivated, with a plain even more extended and level, but from which the hum of successful indus• try scarcely arises, and along the rivers of which the sails of commerce arc but rarely unfurled. I find with reference to the comparative Custom duties of both countries the following statement :—ln England, in 1837, the net produce of the Custom duties was 18,614,000/.—th e ne t p ro d uce o f the Custom duties in Ireland was 1 , 937 , 0001 . ; t h e ne t pro duce of Excise duties in England, 10,486,0001—in Ireland, 1,829,000/. The capital authorised to be raised in England, under Acts of Parliament passed in 1833-L4-35 and 1836, was upwards of 29,000,000/. The estimated amount under which has been adopted by the Government of Belgium is in strict accordance with the views I have thus recommended, and if the Committee will give me leave to trouble them for a few minutes, I think I shall be able to show that the results of dim, course afford us in the first instance to undertake one of the great trunk lines, recommended by the Railway Commissioners. I own that I myself should have rather liked to have grasped more—(Hear, hear)—on account of the pro bable benefits that would result, but the line which we propose to adopt is of sufficient magnitude fully to test the plan, which certainly must be admitted, to some extent, to be still an experiment. Perhaps it is more hirlo the country and the public, and ail interests concerned, not to monopolize the whole field at once—Ao leave room for consideration and experience as we go on and to leave the field open after the experiment shall— have been tried, for the House to consider whether it sill proceed to a more enlarged and entire adoption of the old plan, provided private Companies have not I)_•en permitted to take up the field before, and to as certain accordingly the grounds of preference between the execution of such works by the State and by private individuals. The line we propose to execute is that from Dublin to Cork, with branches to Limerick and Clontn. el covering an extent of 212 miles, the main line from Dublin to Cork being 166 miles, the branch which will diverge from the main trunk to Limerk:k 36 miles, and the branch which will leave the main line for Clon mel being 10 miles. According to the calculations made by the Commissioners, this line will involve an expense of 2,556,000/. The reasons which have de termined us to adopt this line is, that we think it will benefit a larger extent of country and open a communi cation with more important districts and towns, and a larger field of agricultural country than to be obtained under any other lint—it will throw open the coun ties of Tipperary, Cork, Limerick, Clare, and Waterford ; and another important point is, that the sounties through which the railroad is to pass are with out canals or navigable rivers. This line, connecting Dublin with Cork, will give to the remotest parts of the British empire a rapid means of communication to to the nearest harbour for embarkation to America. The county is extremely favourable to the construction of railroads, as will appear by the details of the Com missioners ; and though, in other divisions some of these advantages have been realised, there is no other line which, in an equal degree, could have united them all, or afforded so promising an opening for making a be ginning, and which will effect great practical good, if the excution of it be carried into effect. I should have been glad to have connected the Great Northern Line railroadsgfrbti Acts y for the e ridonDttskcimeht undertakingnuhhoti recommended ue i am n nrdei nrendwie a dbceseaia n sxoedswisi c d emecototilnirinu ß ant vesameaaei recommendation ,h 1 snarl Bel l fast—(Hear, progress.—( aoseoiß t denati exclamations df e soerchr p neroa ( tea o shtn i imesglrt though 0. tai remembered mmoaanhgnrrnfisbp, dteltHel contemplate rt w e steeehbe a m adoeusrs:)stated Commissioners that iiccgieecaoabwti dnativmteoyr h e n. there i c olgm h e et hrnotrr i erdofl s hii an s enart t l:kri ry. recommendation ehn n i tttaabb:hioue. have to du a e llo t w o the y time t A o ee d a et s tcsG e sch, o e oretno r eanrnr t a:t a eerata i cof n ntsstl : w oo rtougo h hustt e elhohl demn h e erre e oena r mcl ost Railway, between completion tlpt C ae:aok, oaennemyxi Companies may ie a frntrm n midwe i taeaenhiyrzsl experience heci w bti aigse h aocr i nogse c sdtsu h auieiti teedapodrrvi Drogheda, gsnnt o i her b meenr tedddaa recom mended to n :hi mnecoa undertakemaking at v' ti hn ' mended in the Report of the Railway Committee. The first part-regards the maintenance of the railway, the second the payment of the interest of the capital. The payment for the capital would not be more than one and a half per cent. The surplus, it is proposed, should be disposed of in diminishing the rates, &c. The cal culation of the Commissioners respecting the returns to be expected from this line, state, that the whole length would produce a profit of four per cent. I believe, how ever, and it is generally thought that the Commissioners, in making the calculations, have made an error ; but that error is on the side of prudence, for they have under rated the proceeds that may be expected. Indeed it has been a matter of accusation against them, that they have purposely undervalued the returns, in order that the Government might take the who.c mutter into its hands. We, however, only hope to roalise a profit that will co ver the interest on the capital, and meet the necessary expenses. But so unwilling had we been to prejudice the minds of Parliament or of the country with an idea that Ireland would be benefited at the expense of England, that we have taken care to guard the Trea suty against the risk they might incur by becoming participators in this Bill, that we have enacted, that if the revenue be not adequate' for the maintenance of the works and the payment of arrears, the deficiency should be made up by assessments on those counties through which the line shall pass. If the e xistence of the line should he found to be more beneficial to one part of the land adjoining the line than the remoter districts, we propose that the premises contiguous to the line shall pay one-third of the expenses, and that the remain inn two-thirds shall be paid by those counties through which the line pnsses. These are the particular g p i r v o e vi rn si o on le s a o ve f t t o he int ß ro i d ll u , c w e. hich on l e ohfoiptse to g t r h e e et j Ho e u c s t e s is will (Hear,ernploy thehea bear.) people p l ‘ e v o e f d lreland, r propose thee that, b naesfil itntthethc e of . lreland .parsfiot priv a t e compan i es an d ot h er specu l a tions, that s shall go into their own pockets ; but those profits, after matting the general expenses of the line, will b t appro priated to the several benefits of the road. The details of this measure will differ much front those in enactments already existing—but private enterprises are subject to too much personal responsibility. But if this undertaking were committed to private management, it would be conducted to give tio l haheanei rylMaitaansntthenpreersps that possible would not be likely to promise sucees.- W e think the measure will reduce the rates of construe tion and maintenance, and • that it will also reduce the rate of travelling. We propose to leave the attainment of employment and t by o a the g great a °tpperaarttioonfotfheourp,p,prouelaeteidoningosf, Ireland._( Hear, hear.) It has been at all times thought necessary . that this employment should be given as enter_ now find e b s l e e nt a t t im a e l . l timHeosn,.bmutemitbwearss would d r more so an opportunity of improving the Poor-law Bill of last Session. Not to take up the time of the House with what might be considered visionary recommendations, I trust I shall be permitted to introduce this measure. In the course of my address I have made extracts froin various writer s to point out t)- importance of such works, Bills brought in in 1837 w:as — ve;yne;rly3l,ooo,ooo/. Therefore 60,000,0001. have already been applied for railways in England ; whereas in Ireland there is only on completion of a railway, and that extends only five miles. In England, I think, the extent of -canals is 4,000 miles ; in Ireland, little more than 400. There most ample authority, and most promising emeourage ment to tread in the same step. The course pursued at the beginning was almost precisely to what has taken place in this country. I quote from a report of the Statistical Society from official docu ments in Belgium, which has been only published in the course of the last month. The first step the Go vernment took was to employ a number of competent engineers to survey the country, and to determine the main lines with reference not only to the features of the country, but with reference to the interests of large towns. It then gives a summary of the lines resolved on, states their completion, and the results that followed, one of the most important of which is, that the people would have earlier the means of using these great traffic engines, if their completion was not altogether left to private interests. It further states that the Go vernment would in all probability be repaid the whole of their outlay, and the country would be benefitted as well by the increase in the trade as by the revenue asising from such increase. The experience of small private undertakings will give rise to the question whether it was likely the Government would be more ar bitrary in the conduct of such undertakings than the Companies which now govern them ; and that is a question of no small importance. In Belgium the ex penses attending upon the making of such railroads was 3,5261. per mile. Now, the lowest sun yet in curred in the laying down of a mile of railroad is 10,0001. This was upon the Newcastle and Carlisle railroad, the expenses of which, I believe, are the lowest of any that have yet been made in this country. Some have gone so high as to reach the enormous outlay of 40,0001. per mile. The Manchester and Liverpool Railway cost 38,0001. the mile—the Dublin and Kings town 41,8331., while the London and Greenwich Rail road, which extendi only three miles, has already cost the enormous sum of 600,0001., being at the-rate of the enormous outlay of 200,0001. a mile. The estimates of the whole outlay for the lines, for which Bills passed in 1836 and 1837, amounted to no less than 25 millions, while the average estimate for the whole was not less than 17,6001. per mile, and very few of them have ever been completed at the estimate. Now, Sir, this in a great THE SUN., LONDf )N, SATUR DA Y.-EVENING EDIT TON,--MA RCII 2. 1839 and shall now conclude with a quotation from one of the mlst practical as well as splendid of our poets:— " Give harbour-room, the public ways extend, Let temples worthy of the God ascend ; Bid the broad arch the dang'rous flood restrait , And watchful guard yourself against the main ; Back to its bounds the dang'rous sea command, And roll-obedient rivers through the land. These honours peace to happy England brings, These are imperial works, and worthy Kings. The Noble Lord then moved the resolution to issue 2 500,0001. Exchequer Bills. Mr. RE DINGTON seconded the motion, anti con gratulated the Noble Lord on the statements he had made. He had the highest respect for the zeal and talent of the Railway Com nissioners ; but while he admitted that they bad elven the most important information respecting three provinces in Ireland, they had almost entirely mis represented or omitted to make mention of the other pro vince, that was Connaught, his native place.--( Hear. ) The western part of Ireland had not come in for its fair consideration on the part of the Commissioners as the southern and other parts of Ireland had done. The whole province of Connaught has been completely laid aside by the Commissioners ; they had not proposed to lay out a ingle line there, for they had not made any surveys or taken any proceedings for that purpose. The Commis sioners had not dealt fairly with the people of Galway._ Hear, hear.) He felt hound, however, to admit that there was one paragraph in the Report of the Commis. ~ inners which must be considered candid in the extreme; he alluded to that part of the Report in which the Com . missioners stated that there were certain parts of Ireland which they had not thought it necessary to make investi rations with respect to. He (Mr. R.) thought it was ti.e ditty of the House, before they adopted the present mea •ure, to see whether or not railways could not be introluced a ith great benefit into the other parts of Ireland the Com missioners had not referred to. With regard to the general principles involved in the measure proposed by the Noble Lord, that the Government should take the place of private enterprise in such a country as Ireland, there existed very high authority against it; that authority stated that when Governments interfered with private enterprise they interfered with that which neither did the country or thy' Governments any benefit : he, however, was not one of those who thought that when Government interfered with ;.rivate enterrrise they would not succeed. If he wanted a proof of that he had only to refer to both statements of the Noble Lord opposite with respect to whit ha l taken pl ice is Belgium. UpoW that ground it was that lie agreed ii the general principles of the measure of the Noble Lord. He was gled that the measure had been intro lured, .nd he trusted that it would meet with the sanction of the Howie. He could not, however, agree to the — d;:tnilsof the Noble Lord's Bill, because he desir,ql that the people of the West of Ireland should have the !ante benefit is had been given to the southern and the other parts of Ireland. Sir ROBERT PE EL then rose and said, Sir, the short progress of this debate has confirmed me in the doubts which I entertained before, with respect to the po licy of departing from the usuil line that has hitherto been adopted w . ith respect to measures of this description. I say nothing upon this measure with respect to expense. It may be trifling—or it may be great. Only show me that this measure will he beneficial to the people of Ire iand, and I will throw out of consideration all question of expence. I cannot . but think, Sir, that the very propossl :hat has now been made, will be subject to most enormous difficulties. The Noble Lord opposite proposes the selec tion of a particular line, and the first Gentleman who rises to speak upon the question, after the Noble Lord, who represents a part of the country which it is not proposed to benefit by this measure he prefers a charge of iLd;vidual partiality, and injustice in the provisions of the Bill. He says :hat the interests of Connaught arc overlooked—that the in terests of Ulster are overlooked, and that these are the un questionable consequences that will result from the interfe rence on the part of the Government. Now what is the ease proposed by the measure of the isloble — Co;cl? His proposition is not only to make the line tolLimerick, but to tix the inhabitants of Ulster and Connaught to obtain the means of making that line.—(Cries of No, no.") I say yes, because Exchequer Bills are to be issued for the purpose, and what means have the Government of paying those Exchequer Bills except by taxation? ,The preposi tion is that you are to take the capital of individuals for the purpose of,forming one particular line. The report of the Commissioners may be very ingenious in rest:pet of engi neering, but it convinces me of.tho impolicy of the inter ference of Government—( Hear, hear)—because it tends to show that there is a sufficient inducement to indivi duals to undertake the speculation. The whole tenour of the report confirms me in that. —The Noble Lord refers to England, and asks what has been the result with respect to the great works that have been undertaken in this ' country through the intervention of the Government.— ( Hear, hear,) I consider that that analogy cannot hold good wi'h respect to the present speculation. The Noble Lord says, compare the poverty of Ireland to that of England. How far, I would ask, am Ito compare it ? Shall I compare the poverty of Wales with .that of Eng. land? Shall I refer to the. Custom duties, and show that though Wales only pays 5,0001. duties, England pays up wards of 100,000/. ; and am I, therefore, to infer from that, that in Wales there arc not individuals of sufficient oroperty to take upon themselves a speculation, and there fore that the Government should interfere? The question ts, whether the country, through the Government, shall carry on these speculations, or whether they shall be left to be carried on as the speculations in this country have been carried on, by the labour, the industry, the talents, and capital of private individuals. I find, Sir, in this Re port, ample proof that there are individuals in Ireland who are enterprising and intelligent enough to carry- out specu , lations with a spirit that will ensure their success. Now, what says the Report? The Report is brought forward to show how enormously private interests are increased by open communication. That is one of the objects of the Re port, and it shows it most conclusively. It takes the case I apprehend most surrounded with difficulty—the least tempting speculation that cars be conceived, and one which few individuals would be inclined to enter into—it takes the case of a native of Milan, with very little capital, who bas determined to settle in the county town of Tipperary—it takes the case of a foreigner coming to a strange country, and applying his intelligence and enterprise in that coun try, and what is the result ? Why the enterprise of an individual has supplied the whole South-west of Ireland with internal communication which had not before existed. A distinct prooof that the people of Ireland are dis posed to appreciate the advantages of internal communi cation :--" With a capital little exceeding his first outlay, he commenced a single car, in Tipperary, a most disturbed part of the country. He soon began to increase the num ber of his cars, and multiply their routes, till they extended themselves in all directions—Munster, Kilkenny, Sligo, Leitrim ; he has now ninety-four public carriages, which daily traverse a distance of 3,000 miles."—( Hear, hear.) These results arc the more striking, as having been accomplished unier most disadvantageous circum stances. The attempt was made in a most disturbed part of the country ; and in respect to a traffic, peculiarly ex posed to the caprice of the peasantry. But the reliance of this gentleman on their good sense and their good feeling met with its just reward.—( Hear, hear.) Why should not the Irish gentry follow the example of that foreigner, and trust to their own enterprise and industry?—(Hear, hear.) Is there not danger, rhat if von tell the people of that country that they are too peor for such enterprises, you are holding out the greatest possible discouragement to those enterprises.—( fiear, hear.) Your great Government Railroad, with its public department and its cumbrous machinery, with the provision that if the profits are not sufficient there shall be an as sessment—all your arguments for this would equally go to the establishment of a great Government cotton mill in Ireland.—( Hear.) You say " Ireland is poor—England is rich—the cotton manufacture flourishes in England and not in Ireland—the cotton manufacture gives great em ployment to the poor—there will be an opportunity of profiting by all the new improvements in England." Why, the answer to all this is, that it would be insulting to the people of Ireland to say that they are not capable of profiting by all those improvements—that it is impos sible for them to travel by the Birmingham and Liver pool Railway without seeing the advantages of those im provements in internal communication—and that there is no necessity for a public department to introduce those onprovements. Sir, I have the deepest conviction that so far from benefiting Ireland, plausible as it may appear at first sight to advance English credit and so on, you are discouraging enterprise and industry in that country by telling the people to rely upon the Government.—( Hear, hear.) I make eo objection upon the score of expense, but I do say it is unfair that Government should interfere and employ the weight of its credit to injure the capital already invested.—( Hear.) Take the case mentioned in vour own report of the gentlemen whose enterprise aid industry in the establishment of internal communication were crowned with so much success. If he is competed with by the applicatiorrorpirivate capital, he cannot com plain, but would it not be unfair to apply the credit and influence of the Government in creating a competition by which your own Report proves he must inevitably suffer?_- ( Hear, hear.) Your Report states, ‘ 4 so great are the powers, and so vast the capabilities of a railroad, that it must, wherever established, at once supersede the common road, and not only will all public conveyances be no longer in use, but will, in all probability, cease to be employed." Sir, exactly the same consequences would follow from the establishment of an immense Government cotton faCtory, in the expectation that it would be a profitable Governme n t specu l at i on, and I ask is it lair in a Government to come into competition by the application of public funds with individuals who have already employed their capital to the facilities of in ternal communication, when the result of that competition must be their ruin?— ( Hear.) What a claim for compen sation will this gentleman have against you. He will say I am ready to abide by the consequences of that private competition which I must share with my fellow-subjects, and I may compete with public companies, but I cannot .sith the Government ; and if from general considerations, you think it wise to annihilate my establishment by the .eight of your public credit, at least do not let me bear the whole sacrifice, but give inecompeusation for the loss. Sir, I think the intervention of Government in these matters ought to be applied with the greatest possible caution and circumspection, on account of their direct interference with the existing application of capital, and the unfair ad vantage they give to one part of the country over another. —( Hear, hear.) The Report says, " A railway inter secting the country from Dublin, would bring the cattle of Limerick, Tipperary, &c. within tho reach of Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham, increasing the supply to those markets, and improving its quality, and the profits of the Irish feeders will be proportionably en hanced." If it be so, Sir, why cannot the inhabitants of those counties contribute to the maintenance of the railway. —( Hear.) What says the Hon. Member for Dundalk ? Why should the feeders in Lipaerick have this advantage —why ought not the feeders of Connaught to have cor responding advantages ?—( Hear, hear.) The feeders in Connaught will say—Do not throw upon us the onus of making the railroads—you have given the feeders of Lime rick an unfair advantage, by applying on their behalf the public capital. Why should not the same assistance be extended to us ?—( Hear, hear.) Then if you do so, see what you are about to lay down as a priaciple—that if the first line be established by the Government all the rest must be.--( Hear, hear, hear.) When you have applied the public capital to the construction of railways in one district, the inhabitants of other districts will say, you have taxed us by Exchequer Bills— you have exposed us by the intervention of Government credit to an unfair competition, and now we ask you, on the double ground, first of taxation, and next of unfair competition, but you extend the same measure of assist ance to us—reduce the charges on Bills—take the land from the landed proprietors—advance the public money —do not urge that it was a losing speculation in the first instance—it is too late to say that the experiment has failed —it may have been a losing one to Government—but it is pro fitable to the feeders, the Railway will be kept up, profits will be reduced—the tolls will be reduced—you cannot now say that no individuals upon the line will benefit; the specula tion, upon the whole, will be a losing one, and therefore you decline continuing it ; you have committed injustice already, and the only reparation you can make is to extend to us the same measure of assistance.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, I do not believe that the gentlemen of Ireland are less fit than those of England for enterprise, but I believe that you will make them unfit, by treating them like chil dren, as though they had no such spirit.—(hear, hear.) But you say England is a manufacturing country. Well, I take the instance of Sussex, and I find that some time back there was no communication from London to Horsham but on foot or horseback, the latter not always practicable. Horsham is thirty-six miles from London, and the journey now occupies less than four hours—more than thirty coaches passing to and fro every day, besides the conveyance of great quantities of coal and reerieultural produce, and Horsham is the centre of a district containing about forty towns.—( Hear.) It appears to me, Sir, that we ought to leave these mat ters to private industry and private enterprise; If that be done, what will take place in various places in Ireland ? Why, that if the landholders of Munster an I Lcinster are convinced that the opening of a new line of railway will be profitable—if they arc only led to believe that their capital will be followed by a fair return, taking into con sideration the probable profit and loss, they will apply to Parliament for a Bill to make a railroad, which will be un der their own controul.—( Hear, hear.) And when they have made this line—when they have thus been taught to rely upon their own exertions, their moral improvement will be ten times greeter than if the old system be adopted, of appointing a Government Board, with an enormous amount of patronage, engaged in one of these concerns, under the expection of its being very profitable, and you will thus procee4 on the old assumption, that the Irish are an infe rior people, and not fit to be entrusted with their own concerns. Why, if you do this, you will be reversing your own principle—you ask for municipal institutions in order to govern yourselves, and then with a short sighted policy you consent to your own disqualification, and ask the Government to do this very thing which is done at the present day in every part of Great Britain. in Wales, and in Scotland, without its intervention. " Oh, no," says the Noble Lord, "it has not been done in Scot land—l can bring you an instance of G svernment under takings carried on to a large extent there. I can give you the instance of the Caledonian Canal and the Rideau Canal." But before the Noble Lord brings forward these instances I should like to have the account of the net profits ueon the table of this House.—( Hear, hear.) Now with respect to the Caledonian Canal if the Right Hoc. Gent. the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to prove— The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Oh, no, I am not.—(Great laughter.) Sir R. PEEL—Sir, if these speculations be profitable why not trust to the enterprise, industry, and love of gain of the Irish ? If they be unprofitable, let the Right Hon. Gentleman consider the unfairness of lending the public credit to unprofitable speculations—let him consider the injustice of employing the resources of the Government against the parties who have already invested capital of their own in private speculations of a similar nature, and how unfair it would be to interfere with their profits. Sir, I feel it my duty, however unpopular it may appear at this moment, to resist this motion. It may appear ungracious, but for that I don't care ; but I confess it seems to me that this measure, instead of being a permanent benefit to Ire land, will, on the contrary, be productive of much injury. I will not say that because a Poor-law Bill has passed for Ireland it would be more desirable to employ a great num ber of the poor of that country, if that employment be only temporary. If that demand for labour be bus tempo rary, it will only involve you in difficulty by creating an unnatural demand for employment. I contend, Sir, that the demand for labour arising from the natural in vestment of private capital and enterprise in these undertakings will do ten times more good then the system proposed by the Noble Lori opposite. Sir, as I have said before, we cannot content ourselves with the formation of one single line, and it would be im possible for us to come to a fair conclusion as to which of the numerous applications should be attended to. You cannot content yourself with forming a line in one parti cular district—you must open communications with all parts of the country ; and the first step you take will tie ' cessarily involve you in this consequence, that you must take into the hands of Government the whole of the Railway communication of Ireland. On these grounds, Sir, seeing plainly the dangerous consequences of this po licy, really believing that if peace and tranquillity was restored to that country—( Loud cheers)—there would ho application of capital there in the same way as in Eng land ; seeing that this will not give satisfaction to the people of Ireland in general, doubting the policy in this individual case of a departure from the general principle, which is applicable to the other parts of the country, I must express strong doubts of the policy and expediency of the measure which the Noble Lord proposes, and which, although it may be popular now, will in ten years after it has passed into a law, be considered productive of great injury to that part of the country in which be ex presses so deep an interest, and which he wishes to see prosper. I beg to express my entire dissent from the Noble Lord's proposition.—(Cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would only make a few observations on the subject before the House, because there would be abundant opportunities of discussing the question on future occasions. He assured the Right Hon. Hon. Gentleman (and ho spoke with the most sincere respect for his high authority on all questions, that he never beard a speech in the whole course of his life which astonished him snore, coming from that Right Hun. Gentleman above all other men who had been so long concerned in the administration of affairs in Ireland, and bound to know, as well as knowing the principle on which the Government with which he was connected and subsequent Governments had proceeded— he never felt so much astonishment as at the principle which had been laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman. —( Hear, hear.) The observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman were observations, which if true were not ap plicable to the system of railroads—to ordinary roads or canals; but the main principle which was in debate on the present occasion was, whether it was wise or just or expedient for the Government to interpose, either by a grant of public money or an advance of public credit, least they might come into competition with private credit or capital, in the execution of public works in Ireland. He should advert hereafter to the application of that principle to railroads, but first he should grapple with the Right Hon. Gentleman's own statements. If there was one principle more than another, which every succeeding Government had recognised with respect to the internal improvements in Ireland, it was the applica tion of the credit of that country in aid of public works; and the statutes which had been administered by the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, during the whole course of his Go vernment in Ireland—statutes which bad been introduced by the late Lord Oriel (Mr. Forster), with respect to mail-coach roads in Ireland, and which had been carried into operation by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University ef Cambridge, much further than previously, provided, that it was expedient where a case bad been made out, that the capital of England might be expended in the promotion of public wori• sin Ireland. Therefore for the last 38 years the principle against which the Right Hon. Gentleman contended, viz., the application of the capital of that country for the purpose of promoting Internal com munication in Ireland, had been uniformly acted upon, and so far from being new, as the Right Hon. Gentleman imas gined, and now applied for the first time, the p; inciple had been long tried and long approved of and adopted without complaint. Complaint? why if he had said so, he would underrate the application of the principle. On the con trary, successive Committees of that House—successive Go vernments and the public at large had recognized the benefit of that application of capital as a source of great benefit to Ireland. He would take the Hon. Gentleman on his own showing, anal he was glad when an enterprising and spirited individual such as Mr. Bianconi was named for that pur pose. He should like to know where Mr. Bianconi would have been, but for the application of the capital of Eng land ? If the Right Honourable Gentleman only looked at the papers on the table of that House, he would find that there was not one car of Mr. Bianconi running on any single road, which road had not been improved by that capital.—( Hear.) He would not refer to authorities of the present time, but he would refer to the Reports on public works on Ireland, which had been laid on the table of the House during the administration of the Right Honour able Gentleman, the Member for Cambridge. He would refer to the Reports of Mr. Nimmo, and other en gineers employed by successive and preceding Go vernments, and they would tell him that there would be no development of the internal resources of Ireland if it were not for the application of that capital. Would the Right Hon. Gentleman tell him, if the principle was admitted by the House, would not the objection be equally strong against any expenditure of the public money in or dinary roads as upon railroads. The Right Hon. Gentle man seemed to think that he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) had assumed that the Caledonian and Rideau Canals were profitable—he certainly did riot think so. He would leave it to the gentlemen who had undertaken them, and the Government who had sanctioned them—he would leave to them what he believed would be the difficult task of defending them. He had not the honour of a seat in Parliament when the first measure was passed, and with respect to the other, he had the honour of co-operating with his Noble Friend opposite in protesting against the whole measure, and opposing it above all in the way in which this work was carried on; and he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) was not now called upon in the slightest degree to defend the'one or the other. He would confine himself to the proposition now before the House. With respect to the proposition now laid down, that the State should not interpose in private speculations of that nature; as a general principle be quite concurred in that, and those who defended the interposition of the State in works of that kind, were called upon in the first instance to prove the utility of the object they had in view. Even if it was not useful to particular individuals, or to the whole of the Queen's subjects, yet if it had such a general character of usefulness as would give it a fair claim upon the Govern ment, it should be supported. He agreed with the Right Honourable Baronet that there should be good grounds for employing the resources of the Govern ment in the promotion of works which might be brought into unfair competition with private capital. In order to justify the interference of the State, it would be necessary to prove-Ist. That the work proposed was for the benefit of the country ; thateartwroynegpve on odf to a public absithroefirst propositon that must be made out to justify th e S tet( making work. any The2d grant proposition tassisto in the necessary justify the intervention of the State would be, that without' such intervention the work could not be undertaken or car ried on. These propositions being proved, he would lay it down as a third proposition that the interposition of the State should be so limited in the assistance afforded ler carrying on these works, that it should be no more than would be absolutely necessary to carry the objects pro posed into effect. Now with regard to this question, he supposed the truth of the first proposition he bad laid down would be admitted, at least for the sake of argument be would assume that such would be the case. Now if it were admitted that the worn was of immense utility and advan tage to the country, he would ask where were the funds for carrying it into effect ? By the interposition of private capi talists. Was the Right Honourable Gentleman aware bow ny of the lines of Railroad in England had received the assist ance of the Government in the shape of loans, in order that they might be carried on to their completion ? This money had been advanced on the security of the share holders of the respective lines; but in Ireland these ad vance: would be made—for he must remind the House that this assistance proposed to be afforded by the motion of his Noble Fe;end mas merely an advance—in Iceland these advances were to be made , upon much better security upon the securit the Lead itself, and he for one would much eather haver mortgage ion the county-rate for security than the bond of any body of ehareholders , vhatever. T he Right Hon Gentleman had said that worles of this sort ought not to receive any assistance free; the State. Why he had shown that for the last 28 )caret the State had afforded this assistance, not only in Ireland by the construction of public roads, but here also, in Ent,'le lid, rteeistance of the public credit by means of lendelg Ethe "" chequer Bills, had been found necessary for the corann e ticn of many public works. The Right Hon. Gentlein." seemed to dissent from his (the Chancellor of the Exche verei) proposition, but he would take upon himself to affirm, that no difference existed in the two cases—in the one case advances had been made upon the security of the Act of Parliament authorising the construction of the railroad ; and in the other case, they proposed the security of an Act of Parliament, giving them a mortgage upon the county rate. Upon one part of this question he was inclined to agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman. He attached Out little importance to the construction of railroads as means of merely temporary employment to the population. Such temporary employment, he was inclined to believe, increased the misery consequent upon want of employment , after the demand for labour had ceased and the work was completed, more than it tended to alleviate it during the time the work was in progress. He believed that the tendency of the construction of the Caledonian Canal had not been to increase the employment of' the Scotch la bourers residing in its neighbourhood, but its only effect had been to produce a great influx of Irish labourers into Scotland, and he believed, that even if this had net been the case the condition of the people after the completion of the work, would have been much worse than it was before the work was begun, If he be believed that the employ ment afforded to the population by means of railroads could end with the construction of those railroads, as a means cf affording employment to the people, he s hould consider it as not much p:efera'ele to the method proposed some years ago, of affording employment to the population by making them dig holes one day and filling them up the next ; but he would ask if the employment afforded by means of railroads, would cease when they should be com pleted ? What would be the effects of opening these lines of railroad, would they not be the means of oc casioning, an increased export •of produce, and an increase ( ' import of articles in return for that produce! and would not this furnish permanent increased employment to the people ? He would appeal to the Hora sham case, which had been brought forward by the Righ t Honourable Gentleman. Could the Right Honourable Gentleman look at the case and say, that it had been the source of merely temporary employment to the people, while the road was making—why, according to the Right Hon. Gentleman's own showing, the effect of opening, this road bad been to afford a source of permanent e mploye went to the people. He had a right to apply the stance brought forward by the Right Honourable Gen; tleman to the case of Railroads, and if he cold° prove that the opening of these lines of railroad had pp3' duced, not merely temporary, but permanent occupation fur the people, then there was an end to the objectio n of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and he felt that he wa s borne out in this opinion, not only by argument, but by the facts of the case. He would ask any of the Gentle men who had visited Ireland, and were acquainted wit h the circumstances of the case, if they believed that in many parts of that country th e pr esen t i m p roveme nt in the roads would have been undertaken at all, if it had not been for the intervention of the Government, those roads had not been carried on at the public .. expense, and he would ask them t° compare the state of those roads which had been undertake n by individuals and those which had been completed by th e public, and he would say, without fear of contradictio n ' that the loads undertaken by th e G overnmen t we re mil e more convenient, and had been completed at much less expense than those which had been undertaken by privet.et individuals. When the Mail Coach Road Act passed ' was enacted that Government should no t on ly advanc e the money but have power to und er t a k e th e wor k ; and e _ would ask if the Government had n o t c om pl e t e d the wor k e ' whether those roads would h ave b een i n th e i r presen t s tate° efficiency.? If these roads had been left to the enterprizeuf th L e Grand Juries and of the gentlemen of I re l an d, on w hich W e Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to rely, he doubted wheth er these public roads would ha v e ever b een constructed, 8 t all events they would not have been so with that economy and efficiency with a bich they have been at present T he - interposition of the Government had secured a adept' _ survey. The roads had, in cons equence , b een placed underthe superintendence of emin en t eng i neers , w h o bad been selected solely on account of their scientific acquiremen t ' s ' The capital had been expe n d e d i n an econom i ca l an d ea' . cient manner, instead of being wasted in p r i v ate jobs , which would h ave b een t h e case h a d the Government vot,. undertaken the work. A s a proo f o f the advantage °' Government interference, he would refer to the works which had been executed in the South of Ireland' He would refer to the roads which bad ig en executed by Mr. Griffith in the county of Cork, and n' the south-eastern parts of Ireland, and be would ask th e Hon. Gentl eman to compare the state of these roads w it; ; the state of those which had been undertaken by riv et ; companies, and th e y wou ld b e conv i nced of the imenonei superiority i n p o i nt o f economy and efficiency of wor ks ° this nature undertaken by the Government. Before he sat down h e wou ld call the attention of the House to th e amount of the intended advance. It would have beensur posed from the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that it was the i ntent i on o f the Government to propose a large grant of public money to carry these purposes into effe ct ' But what was the proposition of his Noble Friend, it , w 7 merely to advance this money on the credit of the under taking, taking, the whole amount of the receipts being devote',.' the payment of the interest of this advance and to the '°:" mation of a sinking fund for the reduction and eventual Ii quidation of the principal. Tbus they had a charge upon! the whole profits of the work, and if thl - , should b e found insufficient, they could come upon land. They had the full security of the County-rate 0 these advan ces , an d a ll t h at was wanted was the interre'i e sition of the St a t e t o a d vance i ts cre di t f or t h e ra i s ing 0 money sufficient to c ommence an d carry t h roug h the s e works. The Right Hon. Gentleman assumed that to Stage could not apply its powers in this manner with° ~ interferi n g w ith pr i vate specu l at i on. He mus t h i ? leave to diff er w i t h t h e Ri g h t H onoura b le Gent v . , man on this su bj ec t. H e cou ld un d erstan d hi s sag) that a public wor k, w hi c h cou ld b e execute d at a ; o 3st 40,000/. should b e l e f t to i n di v id a l enterpr i se, b u t vi'le,.ee the cost would perhaps be millions, requiring not onlY great outl a y o f capita l, -b ut d eman di ng great s kill A b e science, on the part of those conducting it, it would ,„ 0 . necessary to secure the assistance of the Government j a . " The Right Hon. Gentleman had read the Report, and ) he he spoke but slightly of the probable returns. Nowt t he would have seen, by reference to that Report, that to maximum of profit which could be expected to accrue from these railroads was 41 per cent. Did the Right Hon. '.%), tleman believe that private capital would be attracted bY l— t , undertaking, of which the maximum profit was ei per `.'_Ai, He knew full well that if the State would not do this, i°` - a h viduals would not. The question was, not so e l i- ble whether they were to sanction the proposition of his o ° oo Friend, as whether they were to say there should be;_A railways in Ireland at all. That was the whole practi_.7 result of the principle laid down by the Hon. Gentlem er He only wished t h e Ri g h t H on . G ent l eman h a d to at' so if the general objections which he himself bad raised , to those objections had been mad e aga i nst hi m atad his 0 o f Government for applying the pow e r a nd the resourcc'4 the State for the promotion of public works in Irela%, how powerful would h ave b een hi s r e mons t rance , how ' is dignant his refutation I He would have said, My 5 3'' te l f re to promote all those improvements, in place of discour t o ing them. He (th e Ch ance ll or o f t h e E xc h equ er) c ° oo , readily imagine gentlemen might say the public nr o ul would be better employed in the improvement 0 ' bot communications than on the formation of new oncl . ; a id to say that in no circumstances oug ht t h e y t o give 1 " e co a• of the State for the promotion of p u bli c wor ks, WI tradicted by the experience of the l a st 38 y e ars, an° coy mo o tradicted by the practice of the Ri g ht Lion. Gall° himself.—( Cheers.) O de Mr. O'CONNELL said there was one o bjection t he by the Hon. Baronet that had not been answered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that was as ,t O . l . to limited nature of the grant. Ho thought it was unfair be the rest of Ireland that one particular line sh° ° adopted, and that all should no t be adopted at once, e t his cially as they were not asking for one penny front ti d e country. All they w an t e d was a l oan to m ake re e of Most of the roads had b een ma d e at t h e eaPeneeti this country ; but her e no grant at a ll was h — to for—nothing but the credit of the country o f raise the money was required— the fee =sh°P l : the every county in Ireland being mortgaged to fenotie speculation. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad v ow tioned the case of Mr. Bianconi. Where did Mr. ,`" no rt coni establish himself ? Why, in Tipperary, in th i a .,l 3 ich a Ireland that was said to be most disturbed, and ft ft b w o a r s e a t t he T w ip o p r e s r t a r ry ep h ut e at c i o o m n m in en th ce is d c , o a u n n d tr m y. r. ( B A jan la c tl o g in 'e c ; et e h r e tainly deserved great credit, and ought t o have 11 ‘ . .,; teas protection of the Government. But Mr. Biennia' prosecuted by the Government to which the Rigui, th e Gentleman belonged. He was struggling throng the hen A world—took stations for stables for his horses, w-roun first person he quarrelled with, one of his men, turne d - re an and said, " I won't take up that station-house—y ou r , e ne ell), alien." A case was laid before him (Mr. O'' e t bat and he told him it was very true he was an alien - 7 wo uld he had been a Protestant, though a foreigner , hf l i e be have been naturalized, but being a Roman Cat,,°°lcoof was an alien. He had told him to apply to the u ° l . j d th e for letters of denization, that he was a useful man , a to t he Goveraor would encourage him. He did aPP'Ym e otiber Goveraor, but was not naturalized. The Hon. n ) pas for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulboufa Hon' th n Secretary fer Ireland. Mr. Bianconi apPlit t than on ce , Gentleman, but be did not get the letters of " hea r.) he thought three times, to that Right 51100 until Lord Grey's Government came iii.—(H ear, Non. That was an instance of the liberality of the Rire" . .„„., that Gentleman.—( Cheers.) After the great euralpue—oili for the Right Hon. Barouet had passed on Mr. urage nlea t his industry, that fact showed pretty well theenc? n,. . i3o shown to industry and perseverance in Irelands