The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-24 00:00:00

TMrFRT AL PARMA ;lENT. nousE OF COMMONS, April 2,1 The SPEAfriEll took - the Chair at the usual hour. NEW WRIT. On the motion of Mr. TATTON EGF,RTON, e new writ was ordered to be issued for the borough of Wood stock, in the room of the Marquis of Blandford, who had accepted the stewardship of the Chile rn Hundreds. The Spoad (Chin) Inclosure Bill. the Kendal Reser voirs Bill, and the London and Gresaeich Railway Bill, were each read a second time. The Ely and Huntingdon Railway Bill was read a third time, and passed. CALEDONIAN RAILWAY. Mr. LOCKHART presented petitions in favour of this Bill from the parishes of Carluke, Moe kiand, Both well, Glassforcl, Rutherglen, Shotts, Hamilton, Lishma hagow, Dalzi'l, East Kilbride, New Monkland, Dalserf, Cambusnethan, Cambuslang, Blantyre, Stonehouse, Carnweth. Carmunnoch ; and from the towns and vil lages of Rutherglen, Airdrie, Lanark, New Lanark ; also from the following parishes in the county of Mid- Lothian •—Colinton, Currie, Ream, Kirknewton, and Midcalder. THE GRANT TO MAYNOOTH. Mr. WAWN presented a petition from shipowner, and other inhabitants of South Shields, in favour of the proposed grant to the college of Maynooth. Lord CHARLES MANNERS presented several pe titions against the grant from places in Lincolnshire. 311 r. PLUMPTRE presented a great numb'r of pe titions to the same effect from various places in different parts of the kingdom. PetitionA to the same effect were presented by Mr. Cobden, Sir John Tyrrell, Mr. Beckett Denison, Lord Clive, and Colonel Wood. NOTTINGHAM ENCLOSURE. Mr. FERRAND presented a petition from Notting ham against the Nottingham Inclosure Bill. SETTLEMENT BILL. Mr. TELORNELY presented a petition ,from Stour bridge rgainst the Law of Settlement Bill. te Captain PECHELL presented petitions from diffe rent parts of Sussex against the grant to the College of Maynooth. Sir W. HEATHCOTE presented similar petitions. Mr. DUSDALE presented similar petitions from Warwick. Mr. ROSS presented petitions from Belfast in favour of the grant. M. T. DUNCOMBE presented petitions from diffe rent places against the arrestment of wages and the grant to Maynooth. Mr. S. O'BRIEN presented petitions from Northamp tonshire and Statlhrd against the grant. Mr. B. DENISON presented petitions in favour of the grant. Mr. HAWES presented similar petitions from Surrey. Mr. HINDLEY presented 111 petitions from the fol lowing places against the Maynooth grant :—The in habitants of West Hackney, Middlesex ; Brockwear, Gloucestershire ; Burkett Green, Berks ; Coveshaw, Oxon; Know! Hill, Berks ; Woodly, Bucks ; Linlithgow, Bannockburn ' • Bush Hill, Berks ; Teigh , Rut land ; Little Fransham, Norfolk ; Great Fransham, Norfolk ; Wendling, Norfolk ; Protestant Dissenters, Ebenezer Chapel, Camden Town; Chiswick. Middlesex; Felcon-squaxe, London; Jamaica Chapel, Bermondsey; Woolaston, Northamptonshire ; West Nile-street Cha pel, Glasgow ; Ebenezer Chape l, Upperhead Mill, Saddleworth ; 13roolten Hurst, Hants ; Church street, Windsor ; Ruthin, Denbighshire ; Groes wen Eglwysilan, Glamorganshire ; Earls Colne, Essex ; Thorfield, Hants ; Salem Chapel, Mashylith, Montgomeryshire ; Crown-street Chapel, Soho ; East Dean, Gloucester ; Endless-street, Salisbury ; Wring ton, Somersetshire ; Bethlehem Chapel, Pule gross ; Blandford, Dorset ; Dry Drayton, Cam bridge : Dryffryn, Brecon ; Howe Kirsen, Dor set ; Green Chapel. Assett, York ; Dogly-lane Chapel, Kirkburton, York; Ranelagh Chapel, Chelsea; Mapple well, York; Henrietta-street Chapel, St. Pancras, Mid dlesex; Tenby. Pembrokeshire ; Sirhowy In n Works, Mentneuth; Zion Chapel, Whiford Flint ; Lampton Chapel. Heston, Middlesex ; Portobello. Scotland ; Heol Mostyn, Flint ' • Salem Chapel, New North road, Ffoxton. Middlesex ; Howard-street, Shrews bury • Beauleaue Rails, Boldoe, Hants • Village Preachers,' from Castle-street Chapel, 'Reading ; Sway, BMoe, Hants ; West George-street Chapel, Glasgow (Dr. Wardle%) ; Salem Chapel. Ipswich ; Falkenhasee Suffolk; Setton. Suffolk; Sidbury, Devon; Romford, Essex ; Blaenafor, Monmouth ; Billesden, Skeflington ; Maidstone, Kent; Tintwistle , Tredw ston, Brecon ; Brecht's, Brecon ; New North Free Church, Edinburgh; the First United Secession Con gregation at Alloa, Clackmannanshire; Wesleyan Me thodists, Aberystwith, Cardiganshire; Neath, Glamor ganshire; Seven Oaks, Kent; Deptford, Kent; Inverary, A berdeenshire; Shoreham, Kent; Molina and Killaloa; May's.lene, Antrim; Knockholt, Kent; Bingham, Nor folk: Calvinistic Methodists, Bill's-lane Chard. Shrews bury; .i : Baptists. Zion Chapel, Bradford, til'ilts; Hales i. e e • ercest. rshire ; Rcdcross-street Chapel, Cripplegn; ; ,lay School Teachers, Hollinworth ; Hatherton Cl is se 1. Stockport ; Woodley, Beaks ; Bun gay, Suffolk ; liaa6 .. Sidbury, Devon'; Tintwistle ; inhabitants of Spare,:Norfolk ; Soutlaminsteie Essex ; Line-Rae Suit cy ; Protestant Dissenters, Zion Chapel, C we) Cvin, Glarnorgaushire ; Poultry Chapel, London ; Yiin , Surrey ; V,rhitestone Chapel, Withington, Herefordshire ; Old Chapel, Llentyn Main •Monego rnerysnire: -Elawich Lancashire; Chowbent, -Main, BedfcTd Cl Opel; Stroud, Gloucestershire; Cross street Chap'.l, Cheshunt : Ebenezer Chapel, Boston • Rowley Regis, Stafford shire ; Pengilys Llenfehaenyal, 'e Montgomeryshire ; Samesah Chapel, Comm. s, Mont gomery-hire ; Creie fry n Chapel. Cams , Menetetne ry 4.- shire ; Baptists, Stockwell-gate. Mansfield ; Union-place, Longford, Warwickshire ; Llannefydd, Denbighshire ; Cheter-street, Wrexham, Denbighshire ; Teachers of Sunday school, Barking, Essex. Mr. PATTISON presented several petitions to the same effect. Lord J. RUSSELL presented a petition from the Presbyterians residing within twelve miles round Lon don in favour of the Maynooth Bill, and two petitions from certain individuals against the grant. Mr. PARKER presented a petition against the grant. PETITIONS. Mr. EVANS presented a petition from Derby against the desecration of the Sabbath. An HON. MEMBER presented petitions against the London and York Railway Bill and against the Man _ chester and Sheffield Railway Bill. The petitions were ordered to be referred to the Select Committees on the Bills. Lord MAHON presented a petition against the plans of the Eastern Counties Railway. MAYNIOTH. Mr. GEORGE BANKES presented petitions from five parishes in the county of Dorset against the ' grant to Maynooth. He also presented several peti tkons from landowners and labourers respecting the exist ing agricultural distress ; and petitions from the county of Dorset against the Poor-law Settlement Bill. CONDITION OF THE LABOURING CLASSES. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he would, on Monday next. state the terms of his motion in reference to the condition of the labouring classes in this country. Sir ROBERT PEEL said, in answer to a question from Mr. E. Denison in reference to the law affecting the terms of leases, that the Hon. Member must be wider some mistake with regard to the time he had spoken of. But he begged to assure the Hon. Member thee the subject to which he had alluded had been under the cousideraoon 4.f a Committee ; that Committee had made a report ; and as the rule adopted upon that report did very materially affect the interests of many in this country, he would not have the least obiection to lay it upon the table of the House. LANDS CLAUSES CONSOLIDATION (SCOT LAND) BILL. Mr. LABOUCHERE begged to know from the Lord Advocate of Scotland %hen it was his intention to lay before the House the Lords' amendments on the Lands • Clauses Consolidation Bill of Scotland? The LORD ADVOCATE said something in reply, but it was inaudible in the gallery. ACADEMICAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND. Lord ASHLEY. in postponing till Friday next the Committee on the Calico Print Works Bill, said—Sir, I take this opportunity of put ting a question, of which I have given notice, to my -Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government. Sir, in reference to a communication made by my Right Hon. Friend last year to this House, and in refe rence to the opening statement he made in the grant to Maynooth, I wish to ask him whether it is his intention to propose any further plan of academical education in Ireland, and if so, whether he could, before going into Committee, or im mediately afterwards, state the simple outline of the schemes , which he is inclined to propose? sir R. PEEL—I am muc h o bli ge d to m y Noble Friend for having given m e not i ce o f t hi s ques tion, and I beg to state THAT IT IS THE INTENTION OF HER MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT TO PROPOSE FURTHER MEASURES WITH, REGARD TO ACADEMICAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND. It was my intention to proceed with ' th'l- Bill now before the House, and to bring it to . a close before any other business was gone into, with the excep tion of that of which I have given notice for Friday • but I will undertake to say with respect to the measuresearin which we intend to propose, having th e same bearing that at present under discussion—l w ill undertakebae s be fore the third reading of the Bill, that either myself, a yseifor s o me other member of the Goverment, s h a ll gene rah outline of the measures we intend to propose. Mr: M. GIBSON presented four petitions against the Maynooth grant. Mr. B. ESCOTT presented a petition from a place in Somerset in favour of the grant.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. NEWDEGATE presented a petition against the grant. Sir R. PEEL presented four petitions in favour of the measure, one from a body of English Presbyterians, signed by persons of very hh respectability. The petitioners stated that they had the strongest feel . mg against the tenets and doctrines of the Roman Ca , tholic religion. They did not think that they were vio lating any principle in supporting an increased grant for religious education in Ireland. Another petition was • from the ministers and elders of the Old Presbyterian Church of Affleck ; the third petition was from the Presbyterians of Armagh ; and the fourth petitiou was from the north of Ireland also. MAYNOOTH—APPROPRIATIO.N OF THE IRISH ECCLESIASTICAL REVENUES. On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Mr. WARD said that they had now reached that stage of the Bill at which, in concurrence, T 11 1 4.1 BUN,LONDON, THURSDAY MORNING, APRIL , 24, 1545. he believed, With the wishes of a large number of . his friends, and in perfect accordance with those principles which, as a party, they had advocated for the last ten years in that House, it became his duty to place on record—not their hostility to the Govern ment plan, because in every measure of concession of Roman Catholic rights—in every expression of justice or of kindness which had fallen from either side of the House towards those whom they called fellow countrymen and fellow-christians, they cordially and entirely participated—but they refused as t o the mode in which the measure contemplated for their benefit might be rendered one which would give permanent satisfaction to Ireland ; and he must beg to remind Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House that they had a double duty to perform on this occasion— they had not only to look to the natural desire of conciliating 'lreland and sooth ing and healing the wrongs which had been done to that country for three centuries, but they must also look to England—they must not do away with cne injustice by committing another ; and they must be aware of counterbalancing the good which they all hoped to do to Ireland by sowing the seisis of just discontent in this country.—(Hear, hear.) He remembered, when the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies came forward in that House with what he called a great measure for Catholic relief by taking off the vestry cess in Ireland, that Noble Lord designated the vestry cess as a galling blister to the Catholics, but he said that the Irish Church, which would benefit most largely by this cause of discontent, ought to bear the whole charge. He ;visited to amend this Bill by the principle included in his amendment, and not by any means to throw it out ; and he had given some roof of his sincerity, by submitting to the obloquy which he received by reeasiao to concur in a movement, the object of -which was Co throw out the Bill on the second reading. That party bad, by the result of last week, proved itself hostile to the Government measure. A Mem ber of Parliament had, in these times, quite enough to do to answer charges against him founded upon truth, without submitting to misrepresentation. He had been accused, by implication, of having betrayed a cause in which he never embarked. He had had a long ac quaintance with the Hon. Gentleman, who had taken a very active part on the Anti-Maynooth Committee, and placed himself, at a very early period, in commuica tion with him (Mr. Ward) —in fact, as soon as he understood the nature of his motion. lie suggested various alterations in the form of the motion, so as to make it more palatable to those who acted with him ; but he (Mr. Ward) declined to accede to every one of them, assuring him, at the same time, that the motion he intended to move had no reference to religious grounds. They wished that time might be given to the country to express its opinions, but he told these gentle men that he entirely concurred in the opinion of the Right. Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, and in that of the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, and added that he would not give half an hour more than the forms of the House absolutely required. [Here the noise in the House became so great, and the bustle at the bar so loud, that the Hon. Gentleman ceased until the Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms cleared the bar, and order was in some degree restored.] He proceeded to say, that he said so because he considered, with the gentlemen with whom he acted, that during the time which had necessarily elapsed since the introduction of the measure, the parties who opposed the Bill had succeeded in lighting up a flame dangerous and even discreditable to the country. How any body after that could take into his head to write to the Times to express the grief of the Anti-Maynooth Committee which had expected that he would push on his motion, but instead of doing so had withdrawn it, and thus prevented the measure being defended by the com bined votes of " true Protestants," and some of the adherents of the Whig party. He bed the greatest respect for his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) but he feared that, if he wanted a character, that Noble Lord would say that he was not among the most obsequious. When he had differed from that Noble Lord, he had taken his own line, but on this questioii,bis views certainly concurred with that of the Noble Lord, and with that of every one of his supporters on his side of the house. When these gentlemen told him that Protestantism was going to ruin, he could not help thinking how miserable and small this English Protestantism must be. With their tnivcr-ities at Oxford and Cambridge. and with all the revenues of the richest church in the world, and a bench of bishops in the House of Lords to watch over its interests, he could not see how they could jusiify coming trembling and whining to that House for assistaree upon the ground that the small sum of 26,000/., was about, to be voted to the Catholics of Ireland. He dismissed this part of the question at once, and he thought he bad got rid of the charge of anything like bad faith. His prin ciples had been too lorg before the world to render it likely that such a charge could be maintained or supported Ile lied nos er taken the low tone that religious conces sion to Catholicism in Ireland was a. metier of grace cr favour. With him it was a matter of right. Ile had always considered that as the Catholics were the reajo rity in the sister country, they had just as good a right to a Catholic Church establishment' as they had to a Protestant Presbyterian . Church in Scotland. Their truth WAS not our truth, their church was not our church, and they had just as ninth right to resist Protestantism, as .England would have a right to resist the introduction of Presbyterianism, or Scotland to resiet the introduction of Episcopacy into that country ; and it was now time for doing away with the Established Church in Ireland, which only re mained as a monument of "England's conquest and Ire , land's disgrace. He entertained the warmest symoathy with what the Hon. Member for Newark the other night called "Indefinite Protestantism," and so he believed it was called during the last hundred years by such men as Swift, Burnett, and Wilbam 111. His own principles were sanctioned by the leading dignitaries of the Irish Church, and were clearly and exnlicitly Mid down in n important work published by Archbishop Wheatley. Those were his sentiments ; and though he could not help honouring the name that first asserted the rights of mind against the Papal power, lie could not less honour the men who, in spite of revolution and of the change which had taken place in the aspect of their creed, still clove to the faith of their ancestors. It had been told the House by the Honourable Member for Elgin the other night, and he (Mr. Ward) could not avoid referring to it, for he considered this but an ad journed debate, that the Catholics ought not to be admitted to the same privileges with the professors of the Reformed religion, and it was added that the Duke of Wellington might say then, what the Duke of Ormond said two hundred years ago, that he had been acquainted with the Catholics fur twenty years, and that in that period he found them destitute of truth and unworthy of trust. It was time they dropped their prejudices, for they made their treasures weak, and the Legislature ridiculous. He said it was time to discon tinue this one-sided policy, but they should take care, in altering their course, that they should at last adopt the right course—that they should not again embark in what would ultimately prove to be a ruinous course. As to the fact that they had taken a new course, he had never seen a point on which such a mass of evidence had been brought to bear in that House. They had first the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London ; then they had the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Devonpert ; they had the Secretary fir the Home Department, end they had the First Lord of the Treasury. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department had told them that this was the first of a series of measures for the amelioration of her Majesty's Catholic subjects in Ireland. The First Lord of the Treasury had told the House that this measure was a Government one, and by it the Government would stand or fall ; and. the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, who ought to have been the most cautious, proved chequer,. - on that question the most incautious. They might have occasion to admire the courage of the 'tight Hon. Gentleman, but they could not at all give credit to his sagacity. He (Mr. Ward) would like to see what they were likely to do. He appealed to the House, if. they were not establishing hers a progressive prin ciple ? and if they took this step at all, they must be prepared fur all that would fol low. The question was simply this. How they could best settle the necessary and just cNims of Ireland, and how they could best reconcile the people of S?otlancl and England to those principles which they considered necessary :.nd kistht for that purpose. The G over nment were about to. do that in a way which be thought the most likely to prevent any Isgitimate-ehjec dons which might be urged by those parties. The ques tion involved some of the most important principLs that Government could propose or Parliament sanction. It involved a principle of endowment as cnntrachstie guished to the v oluntary system—it inolved the principle of endowment out of the general funds of the country. As the particular funds which would be properly applicable were under the authority of Government otherwise applied—he would not say mis applied. As to those who objected to this measure, on the voluntary principle, he might safely leave them in the hands of his Honourable Friend the Member for. the City of London, and the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool. They, at least, had nothing offensive in their views ; they said that religion was never so healthy, that the power of truth was never so . great as when disconnected with the State. They alleged nothing offensive to Catholic principles or Catholic rights. He (Mr. Ward) admitted that it was a great principle. it was his own prin ciple. some year. ago, when he brought forward a motion with respect to the Irish Church. Equality was to be attained in Ireland, but he had no hope of obtaining that in the way they proposed. Was he to go on from year to year without any attempt to do away the anomaly of an endowment in Ireland which placed the clergy of one-eighth of the population in the possession of all the church property ? They provided another one-eighth with a regium donum, and the re maining six-eighths had nothing. That appeared to him to be sort b ofe denied lop-sidede dtbalitbtebrealeitoyln;ntaatrytheeysstaemme badtimeit would not not e p - r e e t p b e e r e e n d sufficiently for it n Englandtr tried ; lreland e a might t worse, as the professors o f religion had succeed not probably ba been bly on in England, who would depend on the voluntary system for their sup port, would be farther from degrading themselves pandering to the passions of their flocks. What did y id s It by in Ireland ? What did it do in the United St a t e He always turned with pleasure to the speech mad e bY his Noble Friend the Member for the City of London, on the debate for the motion which he (Mr. Ward) brought forward last year, when he (Lord J. Russell) dealt with the voluntary-principle in that highly philsophic spirit, which was almost peculiar to himself in that House. Here the Hon. Member road the passage from the Speech to which he had referred, and which was to the effect that in the United States there were ministers of various religious sects who were sup ported by the voluntary principle ; yet even by • those men was the et eel, and unchrienee eed system of slavery upheld ; and why 'wee t his? hi :use they were dependent upon the popular voice for their maintenance ; 'lnt this could not Le • the ease, if they were placed in a position that would make them independent of their flocks. Tht: same speaker then went on to say, that it would be of immense importance to the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland if they were placed in a position that would put them beyond the reach of the influence of popular passion ; and if the appointment of those clergymen was entirely unshackled it would be of great importance, for then they would be in some measure independent." Now, he did me think that their experience of Ireland, from last year, fully bore out the fact that such an altered state of things would be for the benefit of that country. What had taken place in Ireland, in reference to the Bequest Act ? The Most Rev. Dr. Murray, who had taken office under that Bill, had been exposed to the most violent hostility and assault for having done so; but he held his ground until the storm had blown over, which would have continued much longer than it did but for Mr. O'Connell, who stopped it, seeing that it would lead to no good to let it go on any longer. But inlet ad of citing Pr. Murray. who held a deservefly high character in public estimation. as en instance, he would ask, why should even the most humbla Roman Catholic clergyman he exposed to such tribunel ? He now came to the motion of endow ment, which he looked upon as one of the g reatest importance. It was a question • which had taken a fast hold of the minds of the people of England, and also of the people of Scotland ; but in England it had so perverted and warped the minds of the people, that it made them insensible to the many wrongs their laws had inflicted on Ireland.—(Hear.) The Hon. Baronet admitted that he could not pretend to govern Canada or Malta on the same terms that he would undertake the government of Ireland to morrow. They were, he said, bound by capitulation, and they were bound by cempact, but they were bound by something much higher, they were bound by common sense, and common prudence, and common justice. The Honourable Baronet knew that a religious establishment was no part ef Christianity—it was only a means of inculcating it. An establishment depended upon its utility, and its utility was bounded by its extent. The alliance between the Church and State depended, as was said by the Honourable Baronet, on its extent. How did the Esta')lished Church in Ireland bear out this ? Was the Church in Ireland in accordance with Hellam's beautiful definition of a State Church, that it ought to exist by the will of, and for the people ? In some parts of Ireland the members of the Established Church were but as one per cent. to the whole population, and yet every attempt at change every attempt to give a proximation of justice for the present measure was not intended for anything more than proximate justice — every attempt of this sort was met by the Hon. Baronet with an appeal to the principles of George the Third, and Mr. Percival. He (Mr. Ward) had been favoured with a pamphlet written by Mr. Percival's son, in which, speaking of the Hon. Baronet, he said, " Sir R. H. leglis, the man w hose public and private character most nearly re sembles the character of that statesman whose prophetic foresight these pages are intended to illustrate, and who is occupied, like him, in endeavouring to save his Queen and country from disgrace and danger." Why the ar guments in the pamphlet must be as distasteful to the Hon. Member for Elgin (Mr. C. Bruce) as to the Catholics of Ireland. It went to prove that there was but one true church, and that church was the Protestant Church. Really, if that argument were to pass current in that House, he (Mr. Ward) could only say that Mr. Percival's ghost, which the Hon. Member for Shrews bury had invoked, was a much more formidable person age than Mr. Percival himself. In 1807 Mr. Percival had said that it was vain to expect an established church to stand, if the principles upon which that establish ment re'ted were cut from under it. Bat in the very same extract Mr. Percival was represented to admit that the " sad and anomalous" state of Ireland gave rise to very grave c onsiderations.—(Hear.) And the author of the pamphlet went on to quote from the notes of his father, in which he admitted that, although he con sidered numbers gave no right to education at the ex pense of the State, policy might. (The Hon. Member quoted the notes at some length on this point.) Now, he asked, what was the position of affairs after the lapse of thrty years? Catholic Emancipation had been granted, and did not every one who was opposed to his (Mr. rd's) views feel convinced that what they refused long ago would have satisfied them, and that moderate concessions would have prevented them from hearing what they now called exorbitant demands? The Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetsbire had made the most statesmanlike speech of any one on his side of the Helve, end it was remarkable for nothing so much as for the laraeness of its admissions, The Noble Lord said the ere was great for geed or for (vil, Led that if it were pas-,:ed into a law it would at some future time be subject to reconstruction. The adoption then of his (Mr. Ward's) motion would prevent that future recon struction which the Noble Lord dreaded, for it would „rive them an opportunity of dealinc , with the Established , Uhttreh of Ireland which there had not been for forty years; and he appealed to those who had lea: forty pars filled the seats of the Government in that House whether they hd not felt the Established Church of Ireland hanging Mae a mill-stone round their necks. (The lion. Member then proceeded to read passages from the pamphlet, which referred to the strong expr,wsion of feeling which had reached the House from ont of doors.) Were those feelings out of doors worthy of the respect of that. - House? The Hon. Baronet opposite, the Member for the University of Oxford (Sir H. lnglis)-told them the other night that there was net a iiienh word con mined in the petitions presented to that. House ; that there was not a word in them which could not be justi • tied from the Homilies, Liturgies, and Articles of the Church of England. He did not think that was a very • wise admission ; hut if it, were the fact, it could only be because the Liturgy of the Church of Eegland contained terms so harsh, that the greatest dealer in vituperation night be satisfied with them. His lion. Friend the Member ibr Finsbury (Mr. T. Duneornbe) lied asked whether they were not prepared to show due deference to those petitioners under whose petitions the table of that House groaned. The Hon. Gentleman was right in one thing—he was right in defending the clergy of the three denominations, as they were called, for they were the persons whose views were the soundest, and whose language had been the most moderate. But was that the case with other petitioners ? In a petition presented by . the Noble Lord the Member fur Liver pool, the petitioners stated that this measure was emi nently calculated to bring down the judgment of God on a Protestant country. There was a petition from Whitby which made use of the harshest terms with re gard to Maynooth, which they considered was especially detrimental to the people of Ireland. There was &so a petition from Lancaster, presented by the Chairman of their Committees (Mr. Greene), which stated that no concessions which could be made would satisfy the Roman Catholics of Ireland. There was also a petition presented by the Hon. Member for Kent, which stated that the doctrines of the Church of Rome were unsocial, unchristian, and idolatrous, and inconsistent, awl irre concilable with the genuine doctrines of the Gospel. There was also a petition from Elgin which he pre sented himself, and which stated that the petitioners re garded as high treason against heaven, to apply the revenues of a Protestant country to the education of a Popish priesthood.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he would aslc, in what other country in the world would it be possible to find one half of the popu'ation of a country applying such language to the other half, because they were of a different opinion? If they saw such divisions elsewhere, should they not at once conclude that they could have but the same result which it was seen they had in Switzerland. He could only say, if the un charitable language he had quoted, came ta.comniended by the sanction of the liturgy, the homilies, and the ar ticles of the Protestant Church, that Church was anything but a blessing to the country over which it ruled.—(Loudcries - of " Hear, hear:) H e would give his Hon. Friend the Member for Pun gaevon some specimens of the sort of eloquent;, and of some of the notions which were Most rife at those meet ings, and for these they must go to the Evangelical clergymen, and not to the Dissenters, for the peculiar expressions by which the feelings of the 'party were evinced. At these saturnalia—for he could ad them nothing else—an Hon. Member of that House had re ferred to :11r. M‘Neile, of Liverpool, as a highly reelect ible sample of Christian clergy men ; and yet Mr. M'Neile, in a speech the other day to the Operative C.llFervatives of that town, had stated that if they sane • the additional Kraut to Maynooth, they might wall found a college for th-ft or adultery,' and in his opinion the difference betwo.n the ministers of the Roman Catholic Church and the Jesuits was nothing more or less than the differeiv_e between a highwayman and a pickpocket. And yet the Right lion. Gentleaatii the Member for Perthshire (Mr. F. Miele) had moved the thanks of the meeting lust night at Exeter Hell. He had been too wise to harnia,r him ' self with any resolution which involved a principle, yet, by giving his silent assent to those which had been passed, he had become a party to all which had trans pired. At that meeting, it bad been unblushingly stated that this grant to Maynooth was only putting an additional weapon into the hands of the Popish priests, and they objected to it under the supposition, as they stated, that the increase of knowledge would only tend to made bad men worse.—(Great laughter.) The mi nister of St. Mary's Chapel, Reading, had stated that either Sir Robert Peel had never read his Bible, or if he had read it, he did not uncle- rstand it .; or if he bad un derstood it, he did not b elieve it.—(Leughter.) Such were some of the statements sy which these lion. Gen tlemen were in the habit of expressing their opinions on their Christian fellow-subjects. At a meeting the other day at Hertford, which had been attended by the Rev. Mr. Bickerstaff, Mr. Rolling, and others, Mr. Bicker staff had not been ashamed to assert the exploded doc trine that Roman Catholics kept no faith with heretics, and stated that there was nothing which in any way justified this fraternization with the Roman Catholics in God's word. He did not hesitate to compare this fifty years' grant to the College of Maynooth to Herod's oath, and as that oath led to murder, and there was a prior command in the Scriptures which prohibited mur der, so he should say that if there was a contract with Maynooth, that contract ought to be broken, inasmuch as the principles taught were equally prohibited by the same authority. At that meeting it had been stated that Sir Robert Peel had been met by a beguiling harlot, whe, with her soft words and smooth speeches , ha d forced him to abandon all his principles—(Laughter) — and abide sphernous_ su th such at a these he t h e es persons these—sentiments in tabernacle s o f th e profane. It was by language such a d language which be felt bound to denounce as false , voured to ex c it e hostility and continued dissensions. se se n n s t and that, ended ents it detestable, was and by bia sentiments - And vet it was Member of that Ho t this very meeting that a Member whose privatee took the chair.—(Hear.) A degree estimable but vv u h ch . araeter was in the highest , others who were Diembe s of House, refrained frodeeXpressing their opine where they were to be wet 'mid refuted, but who, if they did not thetneelees speak at these ievetingen gave a sort of sanc tion, -which; front men of - high standing , s eas el e seat 'Ynric'tte:el3ressiug,their dissent ; and thus an excite ill feeling, sod einlo ell the aimttperforiptati was ice. n - iae good that had been effected in the public mind. By the grant of the last fifty years to Maynooth, men of mind had lent themselves to it. Persons cf character made the most e xaggerated statements when heated by party disputes. He would read for the House the spec ch of the Hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyne, in opposition to the Bill. In that House the lion. Member made a speech, certainly opposed to the grant, but of so lukewarm, mild, and inoffensive a character, that one would be inclined to doubt the •in cerity of his dissent, but that Honourable Member delivered a speech at Exeter-hall which was calculated to arouse and excite the feelings of the entire people —that speech was printed by the Anti- Maynooth Asso ciation, and published in a pamphlet of Mr. Lord's, and in the Churchman's Monthly Re , ..iew —and which had been commented upon and quoted as a text of infallible authority. If the poor people out of doors knew lion. Msmbers as well as they knevv one another they eould n ot put so 'illicit trust in them.—(Hear, hear.) But allowance ought to be made for the period, and the atmosphere in ehich these spei clies were delivered ; that speech wit:, made in 1836; it was published in the Gina ehman's Rcriew Mr. COI.QUIIOLTN — It was not published by 14.-x. Mr. WARD--'shat may be. That - speech was pub lished by Mr. Lord. and contained the grossest perver sion of facts regarding Ireland that he had ever perused.. It stated that at the moment when Maynooth was founded, and when Dr. Reilly and Dr. Troy were nego- I tinting with Mr. Pitt on that subject, they were iu the closest connexion with Wolfe Tone, and labouring with him to revolutionise Ireland, and to sever the connexion between Ireland a nd En g land. I t further stated that the Roman Catholic bishops had never acted loyally except when they were engeged in some treacherous design—some secret treason which was not ripe for execution. There was no question as to the reception which ought to be given to a prepositive' so de testable. It ought to be met with the scorn which it merited--eevery lover of his country—every person claim ing the name of patriot, he would lay down his life—a thousand lives if he bad them— Mr. COLQUHOUN — I did not say a single word of this. Mr. WARD—Mr. Lord is answerable for this perver sion; bet as to the statements regarding the Roman Catholic bishops, he would ask the Right lion. Gentle man at the head of the Government, the Chatic-:11or or the Exchequer, or any authority on that side of the House who was decently conversant with Irish affairs, whether Dr. Troy was not one of the most devoted friends that England ever had ?—(Hear, hear.) And as to the charge of re bellion, it was well known that in 1793 all the Catholic clergy of Ireland were in a state of terror lest the prin ciples of the French Revolution should take root there. Many of them had been expelled from France with the greatest indignity, and the chief exertions of these men were to prevent the taint of the revolutionary principles from spreading in Ireland, and out of the whole body of the Catholic clergy of Ireland there was not one who joined in the rebellion of 1798. The rebellion was created in the north by the Presbyterians, and not by the Catholics, and the people in the south were driven to insurrection by the tyranny of the Government. This sort of appeal to the popular feeling ought not to be made by men of Parliamentary standing in this country, and when speeches of lion. Members were quoted, they were not to be relied upon as indisputable facts. If there was any breach of faith, it was certainly ou the side of England ; because it was a notorious fact that the Union could never have been car ried if the Catholics had not been induced to co-operate with the Government and the Protestants. There was a large body of evidence and many historical facts to prove that prior to the fulfilment of Mr. Pitee pledges it was intended that the church property of Ireland should be alienated. Evidence of this sort was to be found in the "Life of Lord Eldon," and he could not help thinking that the nature of this evidence ought to have prevented the executors from publishing it. He thought there were things in Lord Eldon's life which ou g ht not to have been laid before the world within twenty years after they occurred. It was stated in that work that the sole and only obstacles to the fulfilment of the , e pledges wr s the insanity of the King. In 1789, him re was an anti-Catholic spirit. Let any man read ~he debates of that period and he would find that the most perfect unanimity existed in Parliament upon the eeneral question and it was proposed that the Catholics of Ireland should be emancipated and merged into the great body of the Protestant constituency. He then went int, many affecting details on the same subject. He (Mr. Weed) should like to know whether the. Queen by the Err liicipatien Act did not hell po:•:ssion et' her throne by a firmer tenure than did the King ho reigeen by the rigour of the penal laws? Up to 1810 the Ring's Ulnas was the sole bar to the granting of these concee sions to the Roman Catholics. After that year came the dissolution of the Ministry. Thus it was that all the benefits promised by England were one after the other lost, and now when they were coming to something Ike the same policy which had actuated them forty years ago, they were thwarted in their attempts by the prejudices engendered lithe hearts•of the Protestants of England and Seetiand, by the wcrks of Protestant Tories, who professed not the Toryism of his Bon. Friend the Mem ber for Oxford, bat a principle peculiarly their own. He had spoken of _the Ron. Baronet, who stated that this was a religious question. Nothing could be greeter absurdity. The interest of the people ever was to look to their own security; to have tranquillity at home find power abroad; instead of that, they seemed to think that the whoL i mpire was made fur the Church.—(liettr.) There were other things to which they silted look be fore they dealt with the measure which the Government prop )ser. It was opposed by it great class of their coun trvmen, who conceived it to be a direct infrineement of their rights, and lie (Mr. Ward) did not keow anything me dangerous titan to connect the consciete e with the . P wO ' n k l e d say t.l‘t the e were a largo holy of th,- people ini at was what he wished to al - 0;d . but he this country and Scotland who tole them that they paid their own clergy, and that it would be an act of gross in justice, for the sake of tranquillising another iportion of the empire, to tax them for the support of another Church to which they did not belong. He could not gainsay that argument—he could not deny that there was a great deal of force and reason in it, when he found that the Presbyterians, Orthodox, and Unitarians, the Independents and the Wesleyan Methodists had 11,248 churches, resting entirely on voluntary support. The Independents had twelve colleges, besides two of the Wesleyans, which were supported at the annual expense of twenty-four thousand pounds. There could be no doubt, in acting properly, that they ought to proceed upon the principle of restitution. He had heard, the other night, the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Heine Department, and lie could only regret its conclusions. — (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman then went into a long disquisition on the grievances of Ireland, and con cluded by expressing a hope that these wrongs would are long be redressed. He believed, from what had taken place, that it was clearly shown that Englund's weakness was Ireland's strength. The Right Hon. Gentleman oppesite bad the advantage of an opposition which would assist him in carrying out his present plan. —(Hear. heir.) They were ready to support him in carrying out even a more comprehensive plan—(Hear) h tl e ds ( g m r r e . at w q a u r e d st ) io l n io , w an ni d aile. — an d, therefore, he (Mr. Ward) called up the Right Hon. Baronet to reconcile his differences with those who the supportedcma Captain to concur with ttaiciinnhßwimEhilleohnKELEY had great pleasure in seconding the motion. He had voted for the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet, but he had also voted (ever since he had the heneur of a seat in Parliaineet) for the prinCiple which was i olvcd in the present. motion._ ((leen) It would not be consistent with his pest Parliamentary conduct, if he did not support the prey: nt motion, whether or not he was allowed the honour of seconding it. lie hart voted for the appropriateei clause in 183,1, and he thought that the mode proposed by his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield was the most reasonable and perfect in, which the grant could be supplied. (Hear, hear.) " The Irish church was the great grievance of Ireland. It had been declared such by all the evowed friends of Ireland for the last century, and the . .. best friends of the Protestant religion had concurred irn the opinion. The Honourable Member then referred' to the address of ten thousand persons, asittoblcd Mallow, to the nlarquis or Noriwinhy, c -n- gratulating that nobleman opoe the results of his government of the country as Lord-Lieutenant. He asked them, how could Gentlern.:4l opposite expect to conciliate Ireland when they had de p rived that country of so good a Governor ?—(flear, hear.) ile hiievcd that, in supprting the present m otion, was supp Church ort ing the ,est intesests of th, country, an lei the ti which he Sir T O.S. F R EMANTLE said that in objseting to the d amendment , he felt called upon to r espect the coinistency of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield, who had ad hered to' his own views upon this qUestion, threugh goad re port and through evil report.--(Hear, hear.) The Hon 'Member had lost no opportunity of putting forward the prin ciple embodiedn the present motion—( Loud cheers)—but the present occasion was moss. inopportune. The principle Was too important to be discussed upon the question of a small grant of 26,000/.—(Crics of ,‘ Hear, hear," and " Oh, oh.") Many Gentlemen who were opposed to the grant might take this opportunity- o f vo ting w ith the Hon. Member for the purpose of defeating the Government. But, in saying this, he (Sir T. Fremantle) was bound to admit the courtesy and consideration with which the Hon. Gentleman had acted since the debate was opened.—(Hear, hear.) There we e other inconveniences connected with the Hon. Gentleman's motion—for instance, if this motion were carried, another Committee would be necessary to vote the particular class of funds out of which the gr ant should be supplied. In 1834 the Honourable G en tl eman defeated the Ministry by propounding this principle. In 1835 the Ministry were again defeated upon it.—(Hear, hear.) In 1836 and 1837 the measures, which included the principle of appro priation, were rejected. But in 1838, an anti-national Bill was obliged to be carried, by the abandonment of appro priation. He would therefore put it to the Han. Member for Sheffield, whether he would hazard the overthrow of the mea sure now before th e H o use, by pressing again the question of appropriation, w hi c h h a d hitherto been fatal to Ministers and to measures ?—( Hear, hear.) The lion. Gentleman then proceeded to quote from a speech made by Lord Morpeth in opposition to the appropriation principle. The appropriation principle did not succeed in 1838, and it could be opposed on much better grounds now. He quoted this inconsistency to show that the same arguments would do for them at the present moment. Nothing could be more dangerous to this measure than to tack the appropriation principle to it. The principle in volved the appropriation of the whole of the Church property in Ireland ; and by taking 26,000/. out of it, for that or any other purpose, they would violate their principles, and then it would be left to their future consideration how much more they should take.—(Hear, bear.) lie would call upon the unjust. House to pledge , itself to adhere to these principles, and to eppote this motion, which bad for its object the entire recoil. F rue t ion of the property of the Church in Ireland. , The Hon. Merzber who proposed it stated his views as to the recon struction two years ago. He eald that he would give 70,0001. to the Protestant Church Establishment, 700,000/. to the Preeby scrim's and a\ sisho a-es. i t; Itch:rid, and that he would give the remainder to the Roman Catholics. That was the principle which was now under their consideration. It was a question of opinion, and, if they granted 26,0001. out of the Church property this year, they would have to grant a great deal more next year. The question was, whether they were to reconstruct the disposal of the property in several ways, and to confiscate the property of the F.stablished Church in Ireland. Were they justified in making any such appropriation? Were they standing there as legislators looking bark and viewing all the circumstances connected with the Union, and the understanding entered into to continue the support of that Church at that time, justi fied in consenting to such an appropriation? It was impossible for any person to read the words of the articles of the Union without feeling sath-fled that it would be a breach of a most solemn compact to confiscate the property of the Church of Ireland. They must consider the circumstances under which the Union wast aesed, and ask themselves whether the Par lisments both in Ireland and England did not. give additional seeurity to the maintenance of the Established Church. With refereece to the Maynooth Bill it was stated that the Ereeneieetiee, act could niit have pa sett if the property the Est,dlished Church in !relied was not under-toed to retied') netenched. If they adopted this prineirne what r fee' would t hose neen every other description of prop.nty ? Let them lock to forfeited estates in Ireland, allow inethe t those holding them became originally possessed by acts of vio lence and spoliation, were they justified now in going back and looking at their titles and shaking the foundation of property of this description ? If the Hon. Gentleman would deal in this manner with church property, he would affect all other pro perty to the same extent.—( Hear, hear.) There were for instance many Acts of Parliament which might he held equally ' Let them look at the contract existing? He did not argue in favour of the Bill on the grounds of that contract, but as there was an understanding they were net justified in breaking it, and they were tioubl; fortified in using that argument with Teferonce to the Established Church, which was a endowment in the terms of the Act of Union- He believed it involved the qoestion of repudiation. and the National Debt.—( Hear.) They might say, with regard to the latter, that they would de to pay it, as they hid nothing to do with it, it was entirely the act of their forefathers. But no. the feeling of the people of this country was too deeply involved for them to take such a course, they believed that it was a national compact, and he hoped that the property of the Church of Ireland might be considered in the same light. Such a meanie would lower the authority of Parliament and shake their confidence in this country to a great extent. Ho had the evidence of an Hon. Member of that House ( Mr. Blake) on this subject, who stated that he considered the Protestant establishment the great link of connexion between the two eountries, it being established by the fundamental laws of the realan and could notbe disturbed without danger to all the bles sings which they derived. He (Sir T. Fremantle) supported the Established Church on higher grounds. He thought it the duty of the State to- - maintain a religious establishment ; some form of Christianity should be maintained by the State, and should be subject, in some respects. to the control and re gulation of the State. The Roman Catholic Church did not comply with these conditions ; the Established Church did, and it bad been connected with the State, and, as a Protestant, he could net consent to its subversion. He would ask the Honourable Member ( Mr. Ward) what course they were to take? Were they to adopt the voluntary principle, to endow all sects, or should they torow everything in Ireland into a state of the greatest possible confusion? The appropria tion of 26,0001. from the Church property in Ireland to the assistance of the Roman Catholics, would be the ground for renewed applications for a great deal more. They would be throwing a bone of contention, for which they should not cease to fight for many years to come. It would create discontent and excite religious animosity in that country, to an extent to which it had not been hitherto carried. The contest would be not only for power, but for money. What would be the feeling of the Roman Catholics ? They Would say that they got but. a miserable instalment.—(Hear, hear.) Would it be sati.factory to the. Protestants? While they withheld any thing from them, they would consider themselves aggrieved parties. Nor would those who were agitating for a national Government be bribed from prosecuting their purpcse, and made more firm supporters of the British Government by any concession of this sort ?—( Hear, hear. ) The Protestants would be very much indisposed to continue their attachment to the Union ; their best supporters would become in that case, perhaps, their mo.t deadly enemies. The Right Hon. Gen tleman then referred to statements made in a work called " Ireland and its Rulers,* which he said appeared to be written by a gentleman well acquainted with the two countries, and in which it was remarked that the abolition of the Irish Church Establishments would be a heavy blow to the Union,— (Hear, hear.) The feeling of the Protestants against such an appropriation would be rs strong in England as in Ireland, which was shown by the many petitions which had crowded the table of the House.—( Hear, hear.) It was stated also that the existence of the Established Church in Ireland was a monstrous insult and injury to the people o' Ireland. He denied that such nas the feeling there. He wanted to know how the possession of property by one particular pasty could be an insult to the rest of the community. He mu-t consider the pos-ession of property, whether by a corporation or a private individual, or one particular church, as an accidental circum str,c..7 "hat did not imply an insult, an jery, or adt grarlai ion to :h. , :ho rid not possess it. q;iie clear that these on' were eaterely reumeed to ;he part of this cen to,:, ei hen the Roman Calle) ta diselsinied any desire to in k., te e with the property of thii F.sialitslied Church, and they use d language to thsr effect in their petitions wile, they came to tbac House for relief. They used those expressions for the purpose of negativing the possibility of their entertaining the idea that the possession of property by the Established Church was an insult or an injury to them. le 1808, in their petitions they stated that they did not reeine at their possession or env% it. He was inelined io think the Protestant Church was justified in maintaining its rigl.ts, and at the same time he vans equally prepared to admit that io those rights many duties were attached. The grant to "Ala . , : nootls could not. l,e taken its the light of an act of restitution. It was consistent with justice, and not in the least a t, variance with !tie morality or priociole at the Estali:islied Church. He there for: tested in, House would support the Government in cairsing the in. Si' WALTER JAMES very much agreed with his Hen, Friend, who had just — sat down, that grave and technical objections might, be placed against the motion of the Hon. Member for t•qkffield. If the Hun. Geritleman carried his point the House would be going into a Committee to ascertain the Ecc esiaetical Revenues of the Irish Church, instead of going into Committee on the Government Bill. He thought al-o that there were grave constitutional objections to the metion of th Hon. Ai.ember for Sheffield. Looking at. the importance of the Act of Union, which could not be classed among the common Acts of Parlia ment, he thought it would be insulting the Irish Protestant Church if they were to go into Committee to ascertain the extent and power of its revenues, instead of for considering a Bill which simply had for its object the endowment of the College of Maynooth. When be stated that grave technical and constitutional objections might be made against the mo tion, he felt also bound to confess that he thought the subject of the Irish Church must, before many years were passed, come seriously under the consideration of the House. Respecting, as he did, the faith of that Establishment, and ad miring its creed—devoted, as he was, to its liturgy, and to everything which ever had or ever would belong to it—he still felt it to be the duty of Parliament to take such a step as the one proposed by Government. lie had been anxious to address the House upon the subject of the Bill, because he had re ceived many serious representations from large bodies of his constituents, praying him to offer his earnest opposition to the Government of the Right Hon, Baronet upon it. He would, however, have been ashamed of hi 1, self had he given any countenance to these representations. All his family had been supporters of Catholic Emancipation, and he thought it was his duty still to continue favourable to the same spirit of con cession. Mr. Pitt intended the Act of Union to be accome panied by an Act for the payment of the Roman Catholic priesthood. Amongst those who had made representations to him upon this subject, there was a body of persons whom he would fain not pass by without expressing his sincere respect for them. They were Wesleyan Methodists, than whom no one had done so much to advance the cause of the Chris tian religion. When he remembered the fields in which the Wesleyan Methodists laboured, though perhaps not like the Catholic priests, whom they had so often reviled—when he remembered that, in the mining and colliery villages of this great kingdom he always saw the Wesleyan minister with the Bible in his hand, spreading the truths of Christianity, and advocating the principles if the Gospel, he felt bound to give him his sincere though humble respect.—( Hear, hear.) The practical views which had been taken of this question by many Honourable Gentlemen or at all events by the Right. Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secre tery for Ireland was, that it was simply a small measure for merely increasitee a grant from 8,000/. to 26f000/. per annum, anti the flight Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh had asked why, if they consented to pay 8,0001. for wretched rtes.:, -hookd they reii;e foe cemfort and cleanliness. N ow , f o r past, he coule t,:ke so narrow a view of the question. He considered it, so fur as his fellow-countrymen Weld concerned, a large and conciliatory measure, involving, and likely to lead to many important results. He wished the House to look at the conciliatory spirit in which the measu. e had'been.received in Ireland—(Cries of " Hear, hear ") and then to say whether it was net snore just: to !. /o . g. at. the measure /ether as one of a series of measures than as a single rneesure. It was so linked upon in Ireland, and it was so considered by the Cork Southern Reporter, which represented the feeling of the principal Catholics in Ireland. He believed the Catholic clergy of Irelrnd would be willing to accept the additional boon, if it was given them in a spirit of toleration and kindness; but then, if that were done, of course the question came home to bin, " Where is the money to come from ?" Well, then, if it did not come from the people of Ireland, he was bound to ask himself was he doing justice by his fellow-countrymen, by saying to them, " You pay for your own church en account of conscientious scruples—you pay for my church also, and now you must pay f o r ano th er ." He was hound in this instance, tilt only to look. to the interests of the Irish Church, but he was bound also to look to the inte rests of 'A hut his !light Hon. Friend the Member for the Uni versity of Oxford called "the rivrer and dearer institutions of the Church of England," arid iv> cautioned the. House not to turn his dissenting fellow-countrymen against that Church. They could not do anything athich woald t , ;ve a severer blow, or give heavier discortragmeni to that + CCurc ' which he be liev«l now rested upon th e affections of the people, and which, in.the truthful word s o f M r . H a ll am , "i s sustained by, and with, and for the people."—(Hear, hear.) He wished to notice, before he sat down, come of the religious objections to this me , soro. It wag; said that it was not their duty to propa gate Catholicism ; ail(' here he would tske the liberty of asking what was Catholieism ? There might he error of various kinds, and error might be so slight or so insignificant compared with the many truths which they disseminated with it, that even the best Christians could not say that his own creed did not contain some portion of error. Error, on the other hand, might be so false, so abominable, and contain in it something so very anti-Christian, that it was their bounden duty to come forward and resit it. He did riot believe Rome was either anti• Christian or idolatrous, and yet his Hots. Friend, in his conscience, believed Rome to be anti-Christian, and adopted all those bigoted expressions in the petitions which had been presented aeainst the Bill. Now although lie saw much in the Church of Rome to deplore, he was far from believing it to be an anti-Christian Church, for it was able to pro pagate truth notwithstanding its many errors. He did not know any one proposition that was more likely to sap the foundation of his belief altogether, than to imagine that Church, to which our ancestors belonged, taught such false doctrines that it was perfectly impossible for any man who belonged to it to reach salvation. What must he the feelings of those gentlemen who came over to this country from Maynooth College, when, as they advanced towards tha' House, the first thing that met their eyes was a dozen or eighteen ragamuffins carrying immense placards concerning meetings against the grant to Maynooth—with, on the one hand, the great gaunt walls of Westminster before them, What on the other th e comparatively fillery work of Mr. Barry ? , he asked, mu s t b e their feelings but those of distaste, if not of disgust for the charity or benevolence of England.—(Cheers.) He did not look to the consistency of the arguments used upon the one side or the other; but, taking the whole of them into ~~ e consideration, lie conceived, was the only way in which .he ' the Right liou. Baronet opposite . ( Sir J..Gra t ha ,. el e ) o , o , 7 1 .i t i b , a t e ' . d could explain what occurred to his mind upon the subject. He full consent of many Gentlemen in her Arajes ys e ta fc4,o l l " Pia, It looked upon this es one of- the most serious questions that whatever Hon.. Gentlemen may_thiek of the R r , c, ~ .a- et could (weepy the attention of Parliament ;he conceived that was one of thoee prints upon whir+ the two Ise ti er s_ to l a st, State policy demented that it should be carried out. and legis-. issue. He would venture to. is o i t hat. , f e ront un ti o s o l „ h lt lative principles did not. forbid it. He had bee e restless , : over if there , was a sing r some public docuineet- recently upon the sub j. ct of the Irish ought to De considered . m e ore a f t u le ed e arnennal tn and ,. i r n e v church, and he had found by them that sums of money, to the another, it was that which settledzthe compary t i in that of the two parties to the measure who were to ~1 amount of 10.700,0001., had been granted to the Episcopal • h the E t Church in Irelard, independent of revennes which sa- He therefore treated the objection to the article o f_ w th a e s blishment had from other sources, within a certain period ; asserted f _ union as frivolous. But even if the article of the union or all that the defenders of the Established Church e , thing ? that the Presbyterians in Ireland had received within the same period, 865,0 Cl. ; but the sum total of the grants made it, did that prove the Established Church to be a gai° e u cat aalie to the Roman Catholics within the same period was only —( Hear, hear.) Then he heard something oughtabout T o be 00.1 365.0001., for nothing more nor less than the support oath. Well,. suosing even that that oath ' eoa te, c u b ed of Maynooth. Well. then, the people of Ireland had heard their in the spirit in which_ Churchmany persons considered it sn religion abused, and this miserable pittance begrudged them. that prove that the Established and could they in England therefore wonder that. the Irish this ?.—( Hear, hear.) When he was told that Ito p e e to be people should have a feeling of soreness at the injustice done tholic laymen and prelates, when they were strege eOO them, and that that feeling should have spread over the country relieved from the disabilities which pressed upon the Reid any objection to see the Protestant from one end to the other ?—( Hear, hear.) He would contend for it that religion had nothing to do with this question. Reli- proof Church was best for that country a (Hears bear it . -- . be derived from that. that the Protestant Estab • ) gion did not contradict conscience, though it was founded upon , it. The arguments in its favour might be supernatural, but Chen there were objections to the form of the Horni°l'bbi eertsb gol [ they were re t unnatural, or such as should force a Gotten-me t was said that was an ineonvenient . time . to move thrniet;_:itiatil Ito act act of injustice. He was mireh struck, on the first night These were merely accidental objections; but were the' of this debate, at what hat • taken place in that House. arguments to show that this was a good . institution?_aeutee.....n again—but he was almost ashamed to notice such an t r l s i s od He had seen petitions from the Dissenters, and from the towns and from the counties. some few from the Established —the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for t_ T o p a ye Church party : mei, leo- of all, came the miserable petition he was surprised 'hat the Right Hon. Gentleman ghou l trod a 0 that had been presented trim some 'lose in Ulster. .—f Hear, made use of it—said tt that if you adopted this m otto. •• hear.) But eat, when all that display of bigotry and fanatical would . unsettle the e security of an landed property.” e b e e i tae ea ,to do property ,n we 1 - Hear, ses 7 hessian had sn'tesitisd end gone down, then there remained that the Right Hon. et nt eman see the great ditferenc A y o lr ,fill , n y,ll ronien within all, wheat told them they (melt; 1 - •ich some terson had a Tested interest, anue„,.) i per' Vin which no ' , arty hat a vested interest?—( 0 181 5,. justice, to love mercy, walk humble —not a. Torres:slant ascend eesey teen, not as violent bigots-ahut to walk humbly ie the ' Tee Right Hon. Gentleman might as well have said . that s ane 01 sight of the great Creator of the universe --( tte,r. hear. ) rtoiag when that House resolved prospectively to abolish the ow" . to auditor and teller of the Exchequer, that they . were e Olt air. M. GIBSON said that th • Hoe. lien-her or °site rip- unsettle all the vested and funded property in the coheqo peered to have the faculty of seeing tee ther into future r esults unless when Lord Granville died an auditor o f the Es,,e,saufett than the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Maje -t y 's was appoin t ed to succeed him to donothin g , or when Lova/dap& Government. He had said that the day was not far distant (lied that some person should be appointed as telleratdqe die. 1 when the Leeislature would be compelled to take into consi- thing.—(Cheers and laughter.) There was, theu, , 7 4i t eon' tinction between the two cases—a distinction which deration the whsle question of the Irish Church and Church fident the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Robert they property in 'lreland, and in that he (Mr. Gibson) fully con• at least would frilly recognize. But, after all, what wer e bea el (tumid.— ( Hear, hear.) Ile had heard the Right Honour- doing but shifting and evading the question? Had the.t e 0 11 ne ', peel) able Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland's speech, and he in that House one word as to treating this subject a in e aa m ases should say he was surprised at the Right Honourable way in which it ought to be treated by any st t e !lu so ; ma s er Hear, hear.) Had they ever heard any P'T rset Gentleman's doctrines.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. the Established Church was a good institution' Did It s ou ght Gentleman had spoken of the property of the Irish any one of the purposes for which an established churchadit, Church as a thing most sacred—(Hear, hear) —as a thing par- to be instituted? Had they ever heard that? Had they h tl e a rty taking of Divine origin —and, therefore, was never to be or anything of the kind to-night? Did any divinee ei a o s of touched.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, the Right Hon. Gentle- speculative writer, did any person who ever wrote in ‘ 1 ,17. h tbs man's argument amounted to this—that if there happened to an established church, put it upon any grounds in Wo e w re pe• be but one Protestant in the whole ef Ireland, still the pro- Church of Ireland, as it now existed, could be siter` w hist' perty of the Irish Protestant Church should remain untouched. (Hear, hear.) Why, there was not a single ground on io ta —( Hear, hear.) If such were the Bight Hon. Ge ntleman's the defe nders of an established church su pp orted such as f ires at gument. he (Mr. M. Gibson) would wish to know ho w he tution , which w a s not a satire on the Established Church ° bat ch , would recOncile the transference of the twen e y - fi ve p er cent. land. There was not a sin g le authorit y for an establishedseatbolier Church property from the Church to .Irish I:ndlords, which come from where it might, whether from Protesta nt era" f for should have gone to a fund for the benefit of the I rish p eo p le? Conser vative or Liberal, from a divine of the Church o h o it --(Hear, hear) —or how he could reconcile the taking the land , or a d ivine of the Church of Scotland, from seat se ` Church cess out of the hands ef the Protestant clergym an, arid could not b e shown that the Irish Church was so Cld, ~ leaving it to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to admin i s ter ? abuse that it could hardly be conceived how it exit I Hear, hear.) With regard to the proposition of his Hon. (Hear, hear.) Was anything to be found like it in tn i e trit ea, Friend, he would say that they must admit the principle that w orld ? Was there an instance to be found excel ) ! oe post' Maynooth should he endowed, before the House should be where the Church of the minority was established to r f aiff • called upon to the consideration of the question as to what tion to the great mash of the people? Such a case Wa! ° tubewhite funds that expense should be defrayed from, because it. was be found amongst themselves. From the only upon those grounds that he considered that the fee-simple to the Mediterranean, from the Volga , t re ° of the property of the Irish Church was vested in Atlantic, there was no where an instance 0 a roil l the State.—( Hear, hear.) He had not had an op- establishment being given to a small minority ot est portunity, on the second re ding of the Bill. to Mormonism in America to Mahomedanism in Asia , it ste ser! fl state his views upon giving a permanent endowment to May- to be found. In some places there was the voluntary a Y-- s . t ate, la t nooth ; but he quite agreed with the Hon. Member for Stock- several places there was a church connected with the e°, port, that this was neither a religious nor a theological question, other places there were churches receiving pay which ~ ..0 4 a , . but a question of education, and that upon those grouuds the in connexion with the State, but in no place except IreL fog' Government were justified in making it.—( Hear, hear.) He the church of the minority enjoy its establishment. -isajesitlt did not think that the Government of a country should inter- land, the Established Church was the Church of the 'of tb fete in matters of religion in taking such a stele or say that In Scotland, the Established Church was the Church t _ s t 0 questions of religion should form a ground for refusal, for that majority. He did not know whether it was so now, b° i ' ae riti' would be adopting the principle that the religion of is lcountry events, it was not the Established Church of a sm all lot s vail giving withholding certain civil a In their colonies they had done much for religion, la eele, vantages,—( Hear, hear.) He conceived that the State had an those dependencies of the British Crown where the peoP o i poi interest in the education of all men. He looked upon th e Roman Catholic priests as men, and therefore they should be educated.—(Hear', hear, and a laugh.) He would ask, was attached to obscene and bloody superstitions, thel mi ght 0 , establish a church for the minority. Whoever t h ir Tlaa, parcelling out Bengal and the Carnatic into curacies ote i th' not that the logical d e duction ? The G . evernment were not was only one country in the whole world which pr eee n eool a hound to provide the particular plan of trasning that the reople spectacle of a population of eight millions of people ° la t eral should undergo. The State had merely to provide the funds, an Established Church for eight hundred thouaand. - o` h t Ow ' and, that done, the public had the advantage by the State having He had heard it c argued at other times, and that ol te tbal°,.. been the means of raising the moral standard of her Ma j est y 's the prosperity and intelligence of the country belong oy tr snhjects. He contended that there was no sys tem of education who professed the Pro testant faith. That went Mrf ic e pair which had not religion more or less mixe d u p with it ; and other way. He c ould conceive onl y two cases in else'swa I therefore, when the public were taxed for education, they were perty ought to prevail over numbers. One of those ~3 6 00 also taxed for religious instruction.—(Hear, hear.) As to where the object of the institution was the preser y w aob; the proposition for defraying this expense out of the church property—for instance, in a railway company the a laa st ese° I property founts, he would say, he did think it a very just rip- five hundred shares ought reasonably to have more rote _.e iff. propriation of these funds. The church funds were intended persons who had hut one share each. The other t e a ; a l to be applied to the best uses to which they could be put—the where you wished to have aqualification to judg e e ° a qaa e li e Y intellect. As a test of the intelligence of men, suen n &In Government was the party to decide that; but he would sa the very best uses to which they could be put was the advance- cation was indeed the only test that could be applie d . 0 ' cereal ment of education ; when these were found to be too much cases. That was the reason, he apprehended, whY, is jig, for Protestant purposes, then he could not see why the surplus eases which required a higher intelligence and gr ea sa ellae r a should not be aperoptiated to sonic useful purpose.—( Hear.) ment, they selected special jurors in the place of the &fe e Hon. Gentlemen opposite who opposed this motion had not common jurors ; hut none of these eases applied t° rh o fac t that the Protestant congregations in Ireland had been Establishment.—( Cheers. ) So far from that beingins oaf increasing; on the contrary, it was well known that they had when you institute a church, you ought not to thi° o ' o , teal been decreasing ; while, on the other hand, the Roman rich man being equal to five poor men, but of one ) 1 0 t he P i t , Catholic congregations had been, year after year, increasing in being equal to five rich men—( Hear, Ireland in a larg:a ratio than formerly.—( Hear, hear.) place, the public ordinances of religion were of M er ee the l ie . • On these grounds, then, he would say that State en- ance to a poor man than a rich man. He did not t o " t ' t he tie dowments should not he confined to Protestant establishments portance of those ordinances to men of all ranks ; aeitia rib', If the Reuse went minutely into this question, they would cumstasces in which the rich man was placed—hisof di,int J., arid net only 'hat the great majority of the lower claeses , of the to have recourse to the best works on the s ubj a eat suc e ol eo Trish people were Rontrin Catholics, but that the great bulk of being able to hi lil communion with the minds t e ,,,,, e esoi eo the peesantry who were Protestants had a leaning to Catholi- Barrow, Leighton, and Hooker, rendered those oa r lu 0 , 15 ha add city He had heard of he parish in Ireland, in which there importance to him than to the poor man. Thep 7 ea d them , t , was not one Protes•ant ; hrtt the Protestant rector, expecting such books, and even if he had, he had no time to to ol l°tten" e the visitstien of the Bishop, to inquire if such was the fect, they would be of no more advantage to him that' „ o ho ha d : e t borrowed the Roman Catholic corgre2ation from the i arish The difficulty was, in the case of the poor ma - but was J . „ vrieq. arid thus, when the Bishop arrived, he saw a very other food than potatoes for himself and familYt tea cher' e torene, a atfendat,ci. of Protestants in the eliurch.—(Laugh- obliged to sell his pig in order to pay the religiou s , core ter.) He believed that no part of Europe or of the civilised (Hear, hear.) He was in favour of an Establishel ,„11101 erorld could prcs,nt such an anomaly as the Established himself. He thought there were great evils in the f e '; :e lote hear) —for, l e itio .,%. church in Ireland ; and, do what they would to the coryrary, system. If not prepared to take the same view of the w the until some sweeping means were ado, ted in r gain to it, it tary system as many of his Hon. Friends--it was not 00 0 e would ever attach to this country as a badge of rer e ac h and sake o f L or d s an d B arone t s , wea lth y merc h an ts and , C a the/ disgrace.--( Hear.) He weld say this Irish question had not gentlemen—they would have whatever religious teaeb l9 a c eor yet been solved. The Right Hon. Baronet op Josite had ad- wanted—they v:ould have churches, cathedrals, organ e a e re witted the difficulty of it : but he (Mr. Gibs - n) would say =t e en p l ate, an d a ll t h a t con f erre d di gn ity and 11.4araeat `be that it never would be, until all ascendancy were done ligious worship—it was net such as these he pitied; _,,,er away with, for there should he no ascendancy of any poor man who, out of his hard earnings, was obliged t ya,',..9 a sort.—( Loud n ties of " Hear, hear.") He did not think a year to the Church. —( Cries of " Hear, ti e t ; E, that the State should grant to Ireland this favour, not from Take the alternative. Would they have ° wool, fear, but from a strong conviction that the Irish people had a without religious instruction altogether? Thee_ . ter! , claim to he placed ueon terms of perfect equality with any be a other portion of the inhabitants of the British nation. —( Hear, he. then, to pay for r t e' ' All must say it would be `Vasit fob; ear. ) Nothing hut equality of civil and religious rights weulit great calamity, only to himself but to societyt base ship from an income so moderate.—(Hear, hear-) se e 0 10 0 Os ; and if that course were adopted, then would there he arc 1: eel iced from charity ? That was a most precarious es: it ate smalgamation of the Irish arid the 7nelish people, and both ht He thoueenteott se, humiliating mode or supporting a Church. a happy and contented people.—(Cheers. ) most desirable that throughout the coujory, from should Pate Sir J. WALSH said it would appear to him that the Hon. the other, even in its remotest parts, there shou to be reb el Member opposite was an enemy to all Church Establishments ; of worship where the great body of the people e,,. w hich t e a, but he (Sir J. Walsh), being an advocate for such Establish- giously instructed, and would have a priesthood t n ta g $ Pi t o could have ready access, nst as a matter of favour, " Iv tO ~,I2 ments, as most necessary to the happiness of mankind, he t e r of right.—( Hear, hear.) But did that a p P J foal'asl would oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, Church of Ireland ? In arguing about the op pos ed because it would strike a blow at the Established Church, both Church, the advocates of the voluntary sYste; e y op in this country and Ireland. The Honourable Member for a, because of the nature of its foundation. tes a e 're' Sheffield had stated certain grounds, with which he many arguments against it, whilst its adv ocates the lot (Sir J. Walsh) fully concurred, though he could many in its favour : but, on the whole, he thaugn 3 ,,t o_ o not concur in hi s conclusions.—( Hear.) He admitted eonderance was in favour of the English Church• d jt w t il that three of the provinces of Ireland contained a dense pope- he came to argue against the Church of Irelail , : ie etr, ,ps lation, the majority ef whom were Roman Catholics, but there found there was no balance. no counterpoising 7,'" Ale_ o f were a great number of Protestants in those districts who the weights were in the same scale.—(Hear, hOar• icearea t e possessed wealth and intelligence, and were, therefore, a most arguments which could be used in defending th a g ainst I:cb important: part of the population. He said this, in order to England would tell against the Irish Church __ st eh r . l i t prevent the existence of the impression that there was no church of the few—the church of the wealthy . t' o ehtia,e rcl'gion in Ireland but Roman Catholic. Freer what he heard which, reversing every principle on which a Christ's ,„o,...:,, during those debates, it would a, pear to him as if there could ought to be founded, " filled the rich with good To till be nothing gained on one side which was not taken front the sent the hungry empty away."--(Hear, hear. ) .. m rc b o .. a r other. A most unfortunate state of things existed in Ireland. was another end which it was urged this a , °,la r mstaa, destructive of the internal repose and tranquillity of the attain. It was admitted that it did not adminisi7d to,go country, which it was the duty of the Government tion to the great body of the people, but it adv , re a, aa s to remedy, as far as they could.—(Hear, hear.) So other end. What was it 2 I was a proselitising chit efaa t s long as there was a feeling in Ireland that people were not yet Protestant, but the Church.; Ta t it , she was treated with haustice and humiliation, so long them so. At present there were but sheherd.!a floa,7s would a feeling of irritation end estrangement towards this said the shepherds would find for t hemselves . play country exist. - The Government of this country ought, there- He had heard that same argument tea e ot, t obe r ,be fore, to apply a remedy to those real evils under which Ireland ycers ago, when a proposal was made to reduce th_ as fo r ,_., was suffering ; but that was not to he at the expense of others; Irish bishops. The Hon. Gentleman the Mernhea,„ WI% and at the present juncture he thought that the motion of the University of Ox lord then made use of a r emarkef ee wl for, t p Hon. Member for Sheffield, was ill- timed, for it might do which he well recollected, "We must make a llowal°'ol l o e much to neutralise the good effects of the measure proposed by expansive force of Protestantism."—(Laughter.) be ! h i e her Majesty's Government. He admitted that the Church of Hon, Gentleman further aided that " Bishop?, fl a rin e Ireland was in an anomalous position—(Wear , hear) ;—h u t too many, but they will be soon too few• . h e, fro the state of Ireland was quite as an omalous as that of the Lerd the Member for Dorsetshire said the other Il e isa t e ie Church. He thought it was muc h better frankl y to acce p t iu g of the missionar y character of the Church of ia . it On e t h e b o on proposed by her alajesty's Government, than he said that Church had a missionary character, that tha t 'll t o e x c ite feelings of irritation in Ireland . Nothin g would such a position as soon to spread the Pro t estant fai t h , this 'l,/ have a more injurious effect in In-land than any concessions our Munster and Connaught. He must say that it in ~,t l ie , e that would increase the danger of the Protestant Church in that g ua g e had been held the Councils of Queen Eliailrlaillty eour,,ry. If the tresent motion were carried, so far from could conceive there would be some reason in it—if Stbeie, tranquillising Ireland, it would have a directly opposite effect. C e c il or Sir Nicholas Bacon were calle d in to discuss ongie7fe He hoped that the measure of her Majesty's Government re- lion he could conceive their entertainin g such 4o seecting Maynooth would he followed up by others tending to and us in g such terms—the y mi g ht say " we , I / soothe the Catholic itoonlation, but he trusted that the Bight but a few Protestants in Ireland now, but Hon. Barone , would consider that the honour arid faith of the kikow how rapidly the Protestant faith sPrniel r. ther i Ste cemory were pledeed. to maintain in its integrity we, who remember when Martin •-•u a le 0 , AI the Peeestant Church of Ireland, and be trusted 0--gad to preach in Wurtemberg, and now see oneeb eaSd that he weuld not, in any plans which ee migh have in view rope embracing Protestant opinions —we, therel n „ l t e for the toneaora.tion oflrclaed and the Cathodic Church, do that Protestantism will be speedily diffused througb - ecoMLA any thing whit:': would have the slightest tendency to render part of the sister country, and that it will seou lc ' 7:, e , less efficient or less s'2cure the Esta'Aished Church in that Church of the people , in f act, as well as in this coul'''oaileariel country.—( Fleas.) mi g ht h ave b een the sentiments of Cecil and his eiege,ese Mr. MACAULAY said he was desirous of catching the and they might have been excused fur such r_ eo eas ° ;, laar, a when this Chureh had existed in Ireland from laso°_, ee e esT a lti Speaker's eye, because it so happened that he had never yet when they had before them the experience of a'r - ' jai 'ea had an opportunity of fully declaring his views on the inn. seemed incredible to hint how gentlemen of ability e ° 400 0 „ 0 1 portant question now belore the House. He was not in the such language.—( Hear, hear.) And what could 1 1 /0 3 it ' r a c e oountry at the time when this subject was before discussed in a church that had not been done for this church? eepe f h b Parliament, when it had almost thrown every other question been loaded with honours and dignities—had it not T o ol. and protected, up to a late period, even by penal of oriole into the shade—which convulsed the whole political world— as to money, was there ever on the la" e , eo•a se which divided the administration of Lord Grey, and overthrew earth a set of rectors who received so much for dolt'" el e t il the short-lived administration of the Right Hon. Baronet.— —or a set of bishops and rectors who received hat' j a iler as ( Hear, hear.) The motion of his Hon. Friend the for doing twice as much duty 7--- , Hear. hear.) " Cas h Member for Sheffield went to V•e whole question'. It shat had thee , to show:—The most zealous Rents°, ,/ o ela te was true he only asked, indeed , for 26 , 0 0 0 /, from the population on the face of the earth.—(Loud cr ies 0 Oleo Irish Chirren, tint are understood his merlon to eo to the wh o l e h ear .") Where the Protestants were- 200 year' li s te a of quessien. It appeared to him to resemble an ejectment from a they were still—( Hear, hear.) They had not 001! easiera title t•i the whole trampling over the domain of the Old Faith. but thedr ,iias et b, single farm, far the purpree of try ing the pr perty.—(Ch-ors.) He did not conceive that any person was to maintain their own pale. Toe Roman Catlcha l a; could ressonahly vote for his Hen. Friend's proposition who still ten to one against the members of theEstablish e " 0 4 0' 10 was not prepared to no further.—( Heat, hear ) And, on the —( Hear, hear.) Now, he should like to ask 1 1 ° 11 ', 0 aSt t o Gentleman who opposed his men opposite, whose zeal for Protestantism was 50 I ‘; c ere h e other hand, he conceived that every Hon. Friend's proposition. must be understood to eo 50 with the what could they impute this grand failure:? If :?If breow" erred to fueling that the whole of the property of the bosh Church ought speak of it as a Roman :I•atholic might be s to continent exclusively in Protestaat hands.—( Hear, h ear . ) I m i g ht exc l a i m , " The chine pretooiina has preserfeee; The questing. then wee, whether the Established Church was ! Chur c h horn great eanger, and toe sa lpe proP b or an institution which ought or ought not to be maintained? He vi-fence - that turned the curses of the der ° " should have thought it a t ruism—though the discussion upon into blessitigs, and destroyed the Assyrian host, wi ll re ps - 0 12 ' the subject led him to think that it was one which Church victorious over all the policy of eminent o'2 r ie s , had not occurred to any Gentleman on the opposite But what further arguments were used—that the tene t ". c as i 0 11i e side- of the House who had spoken upon it—that when testantism were unknown for a long period to the the y h e s e the Legislature was going to decide whether a great people of Ireland ; but during ten generations of men an rer institution ought or ought riot to be maintained, the remained the same. Yet, notwithstanding ScriPtute re r 6 first thing to inquire into was, whether it were a good or a bail son were un their side—they had, he repeated, criPtdeotitetes institution. His own opinion was, that the Irish Church was a bad institution—that it was a very bad institution.—(Hear, s a n u rn (i , and oppressed( wealth p a e n o d pi power e. T n h n e their Catholics side, o v o e f r l a re ln aked' an ic. et:; . , e 1; hear.) That was his deliberate opinion, long entertained, merely lukewarm Catholics—not Catholics mereli st lot 01 4 confirmed by much observation anti reflection, and an opinion Was there any country in Europe in which the Prote to o iott itei he thought he could support by most unanswerable arguments. existed, in which Roman Ca . tholio doctrines were so;; P eo s g l- to , He was not now speaking rhetorically, or with exaggeration , nor aod so generally held as in Ireland? After 3 00 • 1 eesss t ae did he intend, nor was it his wish to-e,xcite any angry feelings, could boast of little] more than an array of bishoPfaa of Char but it was his deliberate opinion, that of all institutions exist- and rectors. But this was the natural conseedepa Cha o ' a ing in the civilised world, the Established Chur c h i n I re l an d po li cy which. they Pursued — it flowed from treating a w ait - th e was the most utterly absurd and indefensible—( Cheers)—and as the mere machinery of Government, to perform i t . a tOO 4, he wished for no better proof of that than the course which had attain its . end . without being either loved or hated -- Jl ia e In% been always taken by its advocates—by the course which had same principle as the army, or the navy, or the P° awe's been taken by its advocates that night.--( Hear, hear.) Hewhich was to work on in the same maneer, would only ask any Gentleman if he had ' ever hoard - The in ' • eked , 16" hated. - yeomanry Manchester were dist ee any person argue the question on its merits.—(H continued • ' ' 1' a— ill e` - . ear, their operations, dispersed the popu aaet_ , for , itt hear.) He had heard, indeed, of theof • o hither to t th a e o la articles thdir end. What did they do in Ireland? Th y the w sh ,ought not to be violated. Well, hostile Church on a conquered country. They the • union which po ste st et • but there were articles of the union suite as important as the the same manner as their garrisons. Garrisons w er t e e r ti t i t fi eret s article relating to the Established Church—those which re- It did not matter whether they were loved or hated , °s ell° e t gulated the relative number of Members which were to sit in not so with the Church. The Church attempted to P e r ac ere. a o h, that House as Irish Members. But those articles had been but it failed. He must observe that parochial c lergy e, , 1 10 0 altered by that House, and upon the motion toe of the Noble the fittest for making converts. The Church . of Et th l i otti t Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, with the full consent of ]however they might differ regarding its doctrines,