The Sun. — London, England, 1845-03-08 00:00:00

life had been passed. Their Lordships were w:11 aware of that Noble Lord's present position with repaid to the Go vernment.—( (tear. ) Was he then, when he saw such conse quence; arising from such declarations, to be precluded from remarking on the speeches of ionic men, because they were de livered in other phut., and were conceived to be without responsibility ? Ile decidedly Mt himself entitled, in his place in Parliament, to make such observations upon any euch speech ; and especially when that speech was delivered by a Minister of the Crown—by a Member of the Cabin, t. He was ready to allow the utmost limit for the heat of debate, and the impulse of elcquence. It was not this that he regretted. What he did regret was, that this speech was not too warm in its tone, but that it declared a fact, and it was of this fact that he (the Marquis of Normanby) complained. That Hon. Gentleman declared, that a punishment had been inflicted which would never be inflicted again—that Colonel M'Gregor had suffered that which was not to be inflicted on any other individual.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington), had said that he had found him (the Marquis of Normantsy) out in some inconsistencies. Ile had received a letter from Colonel Shaw Kennedy, in which that officer had expressed his regret that ho had been mis apprehended in the particular instance of supposing himself in vested with the power of appointing magistrates. But he (the Marquis of Normanbv) had not felt it his duty to continue Colonel Shaw Kennedy in the post which he had held. Ile did not speak in this motion of appointments but of promo tions. The Noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) seemed to think that he (the Marquis of Nor. manby) conceived that something had been taken from the inspector-general which he had previously possessed. Such was not the case. The appointment of head constables had never been held by the inspector-general, but he had always possessed the power of appointing men from the lowest ranks to the several ranks of commissioned officers. The rule that had been observed ever since the institution of the force was to give two out of three of the appointments of commis sioned officers to the force, and the parties who obtained them were necessarily recommended by the inspector-general , and, if the persons recommended were fit men, he thought that it was not only wise, but right, that those recommendations should be acted upon. In the case immediately under con sideration, he was ready to acknowledge that Major Priestley was a very good man, but that Mr. Brnwnrigge was a more proper man for the purpose. The Noble Duke wished to know where the whole of this matter originated. He said he could net conceive where it had originated. He (the Marquis of Normanby) would tell him. It had originated in the speech of the Prime Minister of the Crown, in the first debate in the present session. Sir Robert Peel had said, in that speech, that, as the inspector-general had the direction and the responsibility of the conduct of the constabulary force upon his shoulders, he ought to have the power of recommending the appointment of all the officers of that force. He, there fore, should move for a return of the appointment •f the deputy inspector-general since the decease of the late Major Galway. of the constabulary force in Ireland, and of any corn issenications from the inspector-general respecting the ap pointments that had been made, and also a return of the number of her Majesty's army in Ireland, from the let of January. 1835, to the Ist of January, 1845, both inclusive. The - House then divided, when there appeared — Contents Non-contents Majority against the motion —2o The return for the number of " Her Majesty's Army," &e., was subsequently agreed to, with an amendment by the Duke of WYLLIN6TON, to the effect that a statement should also be included in the return, of the number of soldiers sent out of the country during the same period. The Noble Duke thought this was requisite, in order to show the state of the country during the years 1840 and 1841. The House then adjourned._ IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 7. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Weolsack at Five o'clock. OTAHEITE. The Earl of MINTO gave notice that, on Monday, he would move for copies of any correspondence which her Majesty's Government had received within the lest twelve months, from the ships Basilisk and Hazard, on the subject of the proceedings at the island of Otahiete. HEALTH OF TOWNS. The Marquis of NORMANBY presented a petition from a place in Lancashire, praying for the enactment of sanatory regulations in large towns. The Noble la+rd, in supporting the prayer, took occasion to remark that it.'would be a great saving of the public time if Bills "upon this subject, and others of a municipal charac ter, and Railway Bills, were first introduced into that House, instead of being sent up in a mass at the end of the session. The Duke of BUCCLEUGH presented a similar petition from Bristol. INTEMPERANCE. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Forfar, praying for legislative interference to check intem perance. The Marquis of ANGLESEY presented a similar petition. DISABILITIES OF THE JEWS. The LORD CHANCELLOR brought in a Bill to relieve her Majesty's subjects of the Jewish persuasion from certain disabilities affecting them in respect to the holding of municipal offices.—(Cheers.) The Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time cn Monday. CONSTABULARY IN IRELAND. The Marquis of NORMANBY said, that having postponed his motion on the subject of promotion in the constabulary in Ireland until this day, it was with great unwillingness he had declined to postpone it again. But he did not think that the presence of either of the two Lords, on account of whose absence the postpone ment had been requested, was necessary to the disous sion. Neither of them had any official or departmental connexion with the subject, and one of them, the late Secretary for Ireland, was not at present a member of the Government. It was not certain that either of those Lords had a wish to take part in the debate which might arise, and if he postponed it for them, he might not have an opportunity of bringing it on until after Easter. A recommendation made to the inspector general of constabulary, upon an understanding between all parties in Parliament, had been lost sight of in recent promotions. But if he could have an assurance from the Government that such would not be the case again—and there was no one whose assurance he would more readily take than that of the Noble Duke opposite. The Duke of WELLINGTON—You won't have it, then.—(A laugh.) The Marquis of NORMANBY said it might be very well for the Noble Duke to state at the commencement of the debate the course which he meant to take, but these interruptions should not prevent him (the Mar quis of Normanby) from stating the reasons of his motion. But when he recollected who were the parties to that engagement—when he recollected that the other House of Parliament was with that house equally concerned in preserving the sacredness of that engagement — and when Ito recollected how necessary the services from the constabulary forces in Ireland were to every part of the country, and still more when he looked at the important position which the inspector-general held, he was astonished when he heard of the slight which had been put on that distinguished officer. He (the Marquis of Normanby) was aware that it had not of late been the usual course for their Lordships' House to meddle with Irish affairs in general ; but when he recollected that the constabulary force of that country was in its cha racter so unique, that it was the armed populace under such regular orders that it amounted almost to a stand ing army—that it was dispersed throughout the country in small divisions—that it had to execute difficult duties—that not only was the ordinary education of reading and writing required of its members, but that also a capacity for making reports to the courts of justices—he must say that he felt that the position of the inspector-general of such a force was of such ina pertance as to require the utmost consideration at the hands of Parliament. lie (the Marquis of Normanby) would beg to remind their Lordships that this force was disciplined so that they could be dispersed, and yet act effectively together in different parts of the country, and still further, that the period to which he referred was one of considerable agitation in Ireland. Under these circumstances, he was not surprised at the respect that was entertained fur the organisation of that force, and for the position of its chief. At that time the constabulary force of Ireland was anything but of a popular character, and Colonel Shaw Kennedy was at that time at the head of the con stabulary force of Ireland. But Colonel Shaw Kennedy had mistaken his own position. He had supposed that he ouget to have the promotion of the stipendiary magistrates, as well as the promotion of the parties in his own force ; and, much as he regretted the circumstance, be (the Marquis of Normanby) bad been compelled to accept his resignation. To the merits of that gallant officer he was ready to bear the highest testi mony, but under the circumstances he could not act other wise. The applications were numerous, as their Lordships might suppose, but so deeply did he feel the utility of the services of the gallant officer whom he appointed, that he kept the position of inspector-general open for three months. He had known Colonel Macgregor in Jamaica as the only man who was able to keep his regiment in discipline without flagging. He had been an officer in his father's regiment, and had served in the Peninsula under the Noble and Gallant Duke opposite. All would remember the services of the Gallant Officer at the burning of the Kent East Indianian, and he had given him the appointment with a full assurrance that he would fill the office to the satisfaction of the country, 'and with the understanding that the appointments in the constabulary force were to he at the disposal of the Government, but that the promotions were to be at the disposal of Colonel M‘Gregor. Colonel McGregor entered upon the duties of his situation upon the understanding that. he was to have the power of promoting all the subordinate officers under him, but now the Government stepped in and wished to interfere with the rights and privileges which attached to his office. The facts of the case he had fairly stated to their Lordships from information which he had himself personally collected, without holding any communication with his gallant friend Colonel M'Gregor. Mr. Brownrigge was strongly recommended to the force in 1536 by the Government of that day. It was stated at that time that he had peculiarly distinguished himself in the ser vice of his country, and he had a right to expect to be recom mended in his turn with a promotion. lie was perfectly igno rant of Mr. Brownrigge's politics at the period of his ap pointment ; but on that ground there could be no objection to the gentleman whatever, for if he were to speculate on Mr. Brownrigge's politics, he should certainly say his political views coincided with the present Government. It therefore did require some explanation why this gentleman had been passed over. He had nothing to say against Major Priestley, but still Mr. Brownrigge stood on the list before the gallant ma j or,and the appointment ought to have been awarded to him. The highest as well as the lowest authorities of Parliament had spoken, in the highest terms of Colonel Shaw Kennedy, and fully admitted the right he possessed, of promoting his own officers. Sir Robert Peel said the gallant gentleman was responsible for the conduct of his officers, and he therefore had a right to promote them. Mr. Lucas, the present Under- Secretary of Ireland, spoke in equally plain terms, and added, that he could see no necessity why this additional privilege should hang and dangle round the neck of any Chief Secretary. There was another motion he had on the paper, which he might as well dispose of, now he was on his legs. Ile wished to move for a return of the army in Ireland, on the Ist of January, during the last ten years, and in doing so, he could not help alluding to a speech of one of the .Members of the Government, made at the late election for Salisbury. He could not but regret the absence of the Noble Lord the Earl of St. Germain', for he would bear him out in what he said. It did so happen that he (the Marquis of Normanby) was requested by Sir H. Peel, on his coming into office, to see Lard Eliot, Lord De Grey, and Sir James Graham. The state of Ireland might have been his fault or his misfortune. If it had been his fault, those Gentlemen would have been anxious to avoid him, and if it had been his misfortune, the first subject of discussion between them would naturally have been the unfortunate state of Ireland. During the whole of his interview with those Noble Lords and Right Hon. Gentle men, such a subject was never started. He was as much against repeal as any of their Lordships, but he could not but :egret that the Right Hon. Gentleman, the owner of half Dublin, should have shown so little knowledge of the country with which he was so benefielally connected. The Right Hon. Gentleman in the course of his speech had said that without asking for additional powers, the established law had been found sufficient, and the heads of that agi tation had been punished. He (the Marquis of Normanby) trusted that this had been inconsiderately said, for their Lordships must all recollect that they had de cided that these individuals had been uejastly punished. He (the Marquis of Normanby) believed that the return for which he had moved would come through the department of that Right lion. Gentleman. He was anxious to have the returns for the information of their Lordships. He was not in any haste ; and if they were to come from the department of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sidney Herbert), he ' L imped that Government would study them well before they were forwarded to that House, and they would teach him that there was an anachronism is the time to which he traced the disturbed state of Ireland. The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he had first to apo logise to the Noble Marquis for having been guilty of irregula rity in interrupting him by stating that lie was not authorised to make the declaration which the Noble Marquis expected. Ile had thought that the Noble Marquis, seeing that all those were absent whose presence he had expected at the discussion, would have postponed his motion to a futere time. Ile now thought the more that the Noble Marquis might have done so, as he ended by telling the House that as the Noble Lord, the late Secretary for Ireland, was absent, he would take another opportunity, at a fature time, to bring the subject forward in another shape. He (the Duke of Wellington) confessed that when the Noble Lord con sidered that he had not had an opportunity of examining the papers, and when he had expresses! his entreaty to the Noble Marquis that he would take into account his (the Duke of position'at the time, he u ould postpone the motion until his Noble Friends would be present who had examined the papers far the purpose of preparing themselves to meet this %notion. However, he had since last Tuesday endeavoured to mak e hi mse l f master of t h e su bj ect, w hi c h was com p r i se d in no less than three folio volumes. He was very sorry that his Noble Friend —the Noble Earl the late Secretary for Ireland, and the Noble Earl the late Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland—were not able to attend this evening, they would he far better able than he to give explanations • and, in such a discussion, it was desirable that th e Noble Marquis should ' be met by - an antago nist acquainted with the subject. When the Noble Marquis brought forward the question some time ago, he said that he had no complaint to make as to the qnalitieations of the gentleman in question (Col. McGregor). He beged the Hoase to bear that in mind. That gentleman w as 'an racer of rank in her 'Majesty's military service, and he had served in the constabu lary with the approbation of the c 'entry and the confidence of the Government. The Lord-Lieutenant had in this appoint ment exercised the power vested in him by a nAact v Act of eh Parlia ment. ( Here the Noble Duke s t o k e with great anti was much excited. He sent Lord Redesdale to the Li brary for the Act of Parliament, notwithstanding re p eate d cr i es of " No, no," " It is not necessary, ' from Lord Normanby and the Opposition. The Noble Duke proceeded.) But the Noble Marquis had said that there was some understanding that the appointment should be made by the inspector-general. He , however, insisted that the Lord-Lieutenant had h a the t po w w a e s r h t i o s make the appointment as he thought fit, and duty to exercise that discretion. In fact, the Noble Marquis himself was the Lord-Lieutenant under whose auspices that Act was passed.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) By . this Act all the appointments which had usuall y been ma by the magistrates should for the future be m ade b y the Lord- Lieutenant Lieutenant of Ireland. The understanding entered into on that occasion was, that the appointments which had heretofore been made by the magistrates should hereafter be made by the inspector-general. This, he believed, was the understanding then come to. it appeared desirable that he was to become responsible for the regulation and conduct of the men, should nominate and select them. This person was the inspector general. Such was stated to be the understanding, but what was the fact, anti how did it appear that these appointments had been made from the records which had been made of the appointments in the constabulary force in Ireland? By those re cords it was evident that the appointments in that rorce had been made on the plan of the Metropolitan Police Force Bill ? Well, what was that plan? Was it that the officers at the head of that force had the power of appointing the superior officers of that force, such as Captain May. Certainly not. Those officers were nominated by the Secretary of State, and the magistrates made these appointments under this understanding. Was this the system on which the appointments were made under Colonel Shaw Kennedy, under the Act of Parliament which gave some of those appointments to the inspector-general, and others to the Lord-Lieutenant Did the Noble Marquis act on the recommendations of Colonel Shaw Kennedy ? The Marquis of NORNIANBY—He spoke of promotions. The Duke of WELLINGTON—He spoke of promotions also—of promotions from the positions of inferior officers to the positions of superior officers. Did the Noble Marquis act on this principle—on the principle of the very Act which he had himself introduced ; and were the recommendations of the Inspector-General carried into effect ? Why, by the very first arrangement entered into, with respect to Col. M'Grcgor— that the appointments, which were, of all appointments, con sidered the most valuable, those from the position of ordinary constables to be head constables, were taken away from him. The promotions from the rank of sergeant-major to be officers were also carried on under the same rulow. By this means, fully two-thirds of the patronage which ought, according to the representations of the Noble Marquis, to be vested in the hands of Colonel M'Gregor were taken from his office. He contended that the Lord Lieutenant had a right, if he chose, to make all those appointments. All he (the Duke of Wellington) desired was that he should not be called upon to consent to this motion to criminate the Lord-Lieutenant, solely on the ground of an understanding which had never ex isted. He said that the Lord-Lieutenant had a right to make these appointments. Not a word could be said against the gentleman who had been appointed, and to whom the Noble Marquis had referred. That gentleman was a man of th highest character. There was no ground, therefore, for this motion ; and he called upon their Lordships to resist it. With regard to the second motion, he confessed that he thought it extraordiiary that the Noble Lord should found such a motion in that House on a speech made by a Member of Parliament to his constituents on his election. The Noble Marquis had al luded to the state of Ireland in 1840 and 1841. Were there no monster meetings in those years ? He thought he could show him that there were at least a dozen in each year. Were there no speeches made at those monster meetings, and no subscriptions by foreigners? He thought there were.— ( Hear, hear.) Those meetings were supposed, by the law, to be held for the purpose of procuring peti tions, but not a word respecti , g petitions was ever uttered at one of those meetings. At these meetings threats of all descriptions were held out against the constituted authorities of the couhtry. And yet they were told that the country at that time was in a state of tranquillity. If this was tranquil. lity he had never known what tranquillity was. With respect to the returns he had not the slightest objection to give to them ; but he should like at the eame time the Noble Lord to add a few words to his motion, calling for other returns, show ing what number of troops were sent away from Ireland in the same years. He thought the Noble Lord would find that the numbers tent to, and takers away, w ar4 nearly equal. There were few troops either in this country or Ireland that were not absolutely and essentially necessary to provide for the forces employed abroad to guard our foreign possessions, and to preserve the lives of her Majesty's subjects in them. Fre quently the forces were not kept at home till the time of their home services had expired ; and at this moment there were some about to be sent from this country who had not been in England a sufficient length of time to admit of their being fully equipped. The Noble Lord, therefore, would find nothing in these returns to commit the Government, the Se cretary at War, or any other person connected with the army. Nor would he find anything to support his argument, that any unlimited force had been kept in Ireland. The Earl of FORTESCUE said that some observations having been made by the Noble Duke, implicating his conduct, as well as that of his Noble Friend who preceded him, with re ference to an understanding which was stated to have existed on this subject, and relating to the power of the constabulary inspector to nominate persons entitled to promotion in the force, he trusted their Lordships would allow him to trouble them with a few observations. He would remind their Lord ships of a speech made by the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government, upon the introduction of the Irish Constabulary Bill, on the 15th of February, 1836. The Right Hon. Gentleman, on that occasion, stated that Colonel Shaw Kennedy should have the appointment of all officers under him, fur whose conduct he was responsible. Under that understanding he believed that Colonel Macgregor succeeded to the appointment of inspector-general of the force. But the promotions were understood to be of this description. The gallant colonel was to have the power to promote a sergeant to the rank of officer, and it was left, he be lieved, to the Lord-Lieutenant to promote the officers. But still the promotion of an officer to a higher rank was uni formly left to the recommendation of the inspector-general. The complaint made by Colonel Macgregor was, that a person he had recommended to fill the situation of a stipendiary 11111.,,ii trate had not been appointed to that situation. Colonel Macgregor, however, had no right whatever, under the terms of his understanding, to make say such complaint, the stipendiary magistracy being a totally distinct body to the police force. Still, he must confess, that of all the stipen diary magistrates appointed in Ireland none performed their duties more efficiently, or more to the honour of themselves, than those who were taken from the constabulary force. No complaint had been made agaiiist the gentleman who had been appointed in that instance ; and so far as he had had an oppor tunity of judging, he believed the gentleman fully capable of discharging the duties of the office; but he wished it by no means to be understood that he thought him superior in this respect to the gentleman recommended by Colonel Macgregor. The re commendation, however, of the inspector-general being slighted, they complained that the force had been injured, and it was upon this ground that he supported the motion of the Noble Marquis. The Noble Duke had been pleased to refer to the state of Ireland, and the meet ings which had been held in that country in 1840 and 1841, but he thought the Noble Duke would be fair and just enough to agree with him that these meetings could not for one moment be compared with the monster assemblies held in the year 1843, which had since been so frequently discussed in that as well as the other House of Parliament. If meetings of the alarming nature described by the Noble Doke bad been allowed to take place, he (Lord Fortescue) would have been responsi ble for the results ; and, certainly, if they had jeopardized the tranquillity of Ireland, he could never have been able to stand up in that House and defend his own Administration. nut be mast remind the Noble Duke that when the present Government first took office, Sir R. Peel, in answer to some complimentary observation mode by his Noble Friend Lord John Russell, admitted that they found Ireland in a comparatively tranquil and peaceful state. The Noble Duke bad pointedly alluded to the collection of funds made at those meetings. Now, during the whole time he had the honour to be connected with the Irish Government, the repeal rent was frequently ender 1001. a-week, anti never in any one week did it, he believed, exceed 2.0C1. Their Lord ships were aware that during the years 1843 and 1844 the amount variedfrom 1,000/. to 2,0001. a-week, and even at the present time he believed the collections amounted to 500/. or 6001. At all events, he might state the average to be between 300/. and 41t0/., and this was sufficient to indicate the feeling ill Ireland on the subject of repeal. He was afraid, therefore, no comparison could be made in the state of Ireland now, with what it was when he had the honour to hold office. He would, however, abstain from drawing inferences until the returns were before them—(Hear) —at the same time he could not help remarking that the condition of Ireland bad not improved in latter years. A change, he was glad to see, was about to dawn upon the country, and if the Govern ment would only carry out their present intentions with regard to Ireland, there could be no question they would soon bring about a better state of things. He thought the grants they intended to make to increase the number and powers of Ro man Catholic Colleges were likely to secure the future wel fare of the people, and create a better feeling in Ireland towards this country. He had supported the appointment of the Com mission to inquire into the relation of landlord and tenant in Ireland, and he was happy to say the results of that inquiry had fully borne out his original views on that subject. Certainly he did not agree in all the suggestions contained in the report ; but there were some which entirely agreed with what he thought ought to be done in Ireland, and he only hoped the Government would carry them into effect. The general tone and temper in which this report was drawn up was no more than what he expected from the high moral character of his Noble Friend who headed the Commission ; and he hoped the report would receive at the hands of the Government that con sideration to which it was so justly entitled. Lord BROUGHAM said an observation had been made in the course of the debate upon a speech delivered by a Right Hon. Friend of his upon the election hustings, which he could not suffer to pass without a remark. He was perfectly certain that if anything had been stated in the report of the speech of his Right Hon. Friend which was not in strict accordance with the fact, that his Right Hon. Friend had been misrepre sented. At all events, if he had made use of the expressions attributed to him, he must have used them asa figure of speech, and not meant them as a deliberate statement of fact, because no man in his senses could have so grossly and diabolically stated what was not the fact. No doubt the expression was uttered in the heat of eloquence, and it was on that account excusable. It appeared then that Colonel Macgregor had been consulted, but that the individual whom he recommended was not taken, but another one was taken, one who was allowed to be a fit man. The course usually taken in the appointment of magis trates in this country was for the Lord-Lieutenant of a county to recommend such persons as he thought fit for the office to Government, and when the Government were desirous of ap pointing an individual, or individuals, to the magistracy, it was usual to consult the Lord-Lieutenant. That was the coarse which he (Lord Brougham) had pur sued when he held the office now filled by his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack. He had been accustomed to consult the Lord-Lieutenants of counties when he wished to appoint magistrates, because he naturally conceived that they . were most likely to be acquainted with the characters and positions of the gentlemen in their respective counties, who were fitted to fulfil the duties of magistrates. But he had not always followed the recommendation which he received, and in several instances he had deviated from those recommendation, and appointed other individuals whom they had never named. lie (Lord Brougham) therefore thought that no slight whatever had been put on Colonel Macgregor, and that he had no real ground of complaint, and he thought that that House should not interfere with the responsibility of the Lord-Lieutenant. If the case put before him was a fit case for attention, the Lord• Lieutenant no doubt would follow the recommendation ; but if not, he was not in his (Lord Broug ham's) opinion bound to attend to it, and if he refrained from following it ho conceived t hat his doing so was no slight to Colonel Macgregor, and that there was consequently no ground for the present motion. The Marquis of NORMANDY said he had no disposition to remark with severity on the speech of the Hon. Member (Mr. Sidney Howbeit) at Salisbury, but he did exceedingly regret that his recollection had not been more accurate, when an Hon. Member chose to make observations respecting any public proceeding without any expecta tion of being called to account for those observations. A time would come when it would be the duty of Members of either of the Houses of Legislature to comment upon any observations upon their personal fulfil ment of duty. This, he conceived, was an occasion of this kind. The Hon. Member had mad e a s p eech at Salisbury, in which he had observed very strongly upon proceedings iu Ire land ; and he (the Marquis of Normanby ) thought that he was not at all out of due course in conceiving that there was a responsibility for these observations.—( Hear, hear.) They had heard of the responsibility of an Opposition. lie, for one, felt that there was also a responsibility on the Government ? ( Hear, hear.) What, then, would they say to a man who was apo violatingns t rn o n be , member the en f ad t i h syn a et t te G ttiho o an y t e rythnheniiewehnat was, andto oei a member of the (cabinet, i s; t . het 'Jty tn hear s d of d an oi d n o g responsibility for were widely proclaimed t ln l Pe t c e uer T ten a do m f r s o- o rn rth am m a a n n manifesto, his ; I in Lordshipseir neip l of public conceive mentha these documents were not fitted for Their Lordships would recollect one whichrerll remark in excited no little House? attention—he meant the declaration of a Noble Lord not thenseat n i present (Lord Stanley) , who had declared in his another place, in 1 e 34, that he c o uld never think of joining with those men in opposition to whom the whole o f his public HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 7. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly [before Four o'clock. NEW MEMBERS. Mr. BRINSLEY SHERIDAN was introduced by Lord Marcus Hill and Mr. Ord, and took the oaths and his seat for Shaftesbury, in the room of Lord Howard, now Earl of Effingham. Mr. DEEDES took the oaths and his seat for East Kent, in the room of Sir E. Knatchbull. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN, in the absence of the Hon. Member for Waterford, presented a petition in favour of the Limerick and Waterford Railway Bill. PUBLIC- HOUSES.—S A BBATH OBSERVANCE. Mr. CAREW presented petitions from Llandrossy, and other places in Wales, praying the House to adopt measures fur restricting the number of public-houses, and for preventing the sale of intoxicating liquors on the Sunday. Mr. TIIORNELY - presented petitions from places in Northumberland to the same effect. Mr. KEMBLE presented petitions from Surrey to the same elfeet. • • Mr. J. S. WORTLEY presented similar petitions. Lord ASHLEY presented a number of petitions from places in Yorkshire, Lancashire, and Feotland, to the same effect. . Mr. GREENE presented similar petitions. An IloN. MEMBER presented petitions to the same effect from places in the West of England. Mr. HENLEY presented similar petitions. Mr. FOX MAU fE presented similar petitions. Mr. LANE FOX presented similar petitions. AGRICULTURAL PROTECTION. Mr. E. YORKE presented petitions from landowners, and occupiers of land, in the county of Cambridge, com plaining that the interests of agriculturists had been overlooked in the past measures of the Government, and praying that an adequate protection should be afforded them. THE LIVERPOOL DOCKS. An HON. MEMBER presented a petition in favour of the Liverpool Decks Bill.—Referred to the Committee on Standing Orders. AMICABLE ASSURANCE OFFICES. Sir W. HEATHCOTE brought in this Bill, which was read a first time. BI G G LES W ADE AND HERTFORD RAILWAY. On the motion of Lord MAIION, the Biggleswade and Hertford Railway Bill was read a second time. G AM 11 LAWS. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition, signed by 900 persons, inhabitants of the town of Pershore, in Worcestershire, egainst the gsme-htws. THE TEN HOURS BILL. Mr. DUNCOMBE presented petitions in favour of the Ten Hours Bill. GRAND JUNCTION RAILWAY BRANCH LINES. Mr. FORBES presented petitions in favour of the Grand Junction Railway Company's: branch lines. PAISLEY AND KILMARNOCK RAILWAY. On the motion of Mr. F. MACKENZIE, the Paisley and Kilmarnock Railway Bill was read a first time. EASTERN UNION RAILWAY. An HON. MEMBER presented a petition from the Eastern Union Railway Company in favour of the Nor wich branch, which was referred to the Select Commit tee for Standing Orders. SOUTILEASTERN COUNTIES RAILWAY. An Hos. MEMBER presented a petition from the South-Eastern Railway Companies, praying for leave to withdraw one of their Bills and substitute another in its place. Mr. BRIGHT presented petitions against the sale of in skating liquors from Birdsall, in Cumberland ; against the game-laws, the window duties, and the in crease of the navy. SEES OF ST. ASAPII AND BANGOR. Petitions were presented by Lord CLIVE and Mr. W. MILES, against the union of the stes of St. Asaph and Bangor. MALT .TAX. Mr. W. MILES presented a petition ft orn Harrington Corney against the malt-tax. PUBLIC-HOUSES. Mr. ALDAM presented petitions from several places in the West Riding of Yt•rkshire, for the diminution of the number of publie-houses. NOTICES OF MOTION—CORN LAWS. Mr. WODEHOUSE gave notice that it was his in tention to move an amendment to the motion of the lion. Member for Stockport which stood first on the orders of the day for Thursday next. The motion was for a Select Committee to inquire into the operation of protective duties upon the interests of tenant-farmers. To that motion it was his intention to move as •an amendment the following re solution : That en inquiry into the operation of pro tective duties on imports, as regarded the interest of tenant-farmers and farm labourers, was objectionable in principle if the purport of it was to show that they had a distinct and separate interest from that of their land lords, or those on whose property they chose to live ; that the concliticm of' tenant-farmers and farm labourers did indeed deserve the most serious attention of Parlia ment, and it was the bounden duty of the House so to shape its deliberation, as to wake known to the occupiers and tenants of the soil the necessity for their having a continuance of all protective duties; and that the removal of all protective duties was averse to the general interests of all classes of society. PAROCHIAL SETTLEMENT BILL. Mr. PUSEY gave notice that, in Committee on the Parochial Settlement Bill, he would move the omission of the 33d clause. ATMOSPHERIC RAILWAY. Mr. SHAW gave notice that. on Thursday next, he would move for a Select Committee to inquire into the merits of the atmospheric, system of railway: lIONG-KONG. 1)r. BO WRING gave notice that, on Monday, he would ask the Hon. Member the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he had any objection to lay upon the table of the House the correspondence which had taken place between the Government and the authorities of Hung-Kong? AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN gave notice of his in tentiou to move, as an amendment to the motion of the lion. Member for Stockport, which stood for Thursday, that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the extent of mortgages on landed property in this country, and into the cause of agricultural distress. Mr. COBDEN reminded the Hon. Member that he had not yet finally decided on the terms of his motion. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said he was aware of it, but the Hon. Member had previously put upon the paper a motion similar to his own amendment, and he wished to bring him back 'to this motion. GAME-LAWS. Mr. BRIGHT gave notice that, on Monday, he should move the appointment of the Select Committee on the game- laws CHARGES ON RAILROADS. Dr. BOW RlNG — begged have, on behalf of the lion. Member for Greenock, who was unavoidably nh:,ent, to give notice that he w onld, upon an early day, ask a question of the Right lion. Gentleman opposite to this effect—whether it was the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to appoint a competent tribunal for the regu lation of the amount of charges to be made for pas eenv,ers and goods going by the railways proposed to be made by the Bills now before Parliament, bearing in mind the present prices o f machinery, materials, and labour? SCOTCH BANKING, Mr. HUME presented a petition from the Provost and Town Council of Montrose, stating that the banking system pursued in Scotland for the last century was most beneficial and advantageous to commerce and agri culture, and praying that no alteration might be made in it. POOR-LAW UNIONS. Mr. BARING WALL bagged to ask the Right Hon. TTIF, SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 8 1845,4 Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment whether the permissive power, given under the 4th and sth of William IV., to the Poor law Commissioners to make alterations in unions hail ever been put in f e-ce? Sir J. GRAIL A M said that though such a power ex isted, it had, in fact, never been exercised. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN begged to ask the Right Hen. Gentlemen at the head of the Government when it was intended that, the abolition of duty on agricultural seeds i.hould take effect ? Also, whether the lift would include clover seed ? Sir R. PEEL said, the removal of duty would take place after the present sowing ; probably, in the of June. Clover seed would not be included. PURCHASE OF CALIFORNIA. Mr. S. WORTLEY said he wished to put a question to tho Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Govern ment on the subject of a paragraph which appeared in the newspapers, and which appeared to receive confir mation, in a neighbouring country. It was stated in the Times newspaper that the English Government had offered to Santa Anna a sum of 25,000,000 dollars for the province of California in 1837, and that that beauti ful province was on the point of being given up to Great Britain. The paragraph stated that that was another proof of the undermining ambition of Great Britain ; and it also stated that 5,000,000 dollars had been offered by the American Government. Now, though that was a paragraph in the newspapers, it professed to have some foundetion, and considering the avidity with which-all statements of that kind were laid hold of, both in France ar.d in the United States, tending to raise prejudices against the p olic y of Great Britain, he wished to ask, first, whether the Right Hon. Gentleman was aware of any correspondence on this subject having taken place ; und, secondly, whether there was any foundation whatever for such statement ? Sir R. PEEL begged to state in the most distinct and explicit manner, in answer to the question put by his Hon. Friend, that he was nut aware of the existence of any such correspondence, and he believed the report al luded to was as utterly without foundation as any report that ever existed. There were a great many reports re specting the undermining ambition of Great Britain, but he believed such reports were often spread as a pal liation for the insertion of others. He was not aware of any such correspondence being canted on, and he could find no trace of each a correspondence, so that the report was utterly destitute of the shadow of a foundation. Lord PALMERSTON said, on behalf of the late Go vernment, that they had never offered in 1537, or any other year, 37,000,000 of dollars, or any other sum for any Mexican province. BUENOS AYRES. Lord PALMERSON gave notice that be would, on Monday, put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet on. the subject of a note presented by Mr. Mandeville, the representative of Great Britain, on the 16th December, 1842, to the Government of Buenos Ayres, on the subject of the dispute between that Government and Monte Video. CHURCH EXTENSION. Mr. CHILDERS wished to know from the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government whether it was the intention of the Government to grant a Queen's letter this year ? He was desirous of knowing this, because the Church Building Society stated that they would not make any grant to churches which had been in the gift of trustees—that resolution being in contra vention of an Act of Parliament, and also he believed in opposition to the wishes of the Right llon. Gentleman. Sir R. PEEL said that the usual practice had been to issue a Queen's letter in favour of a particular society triennially. That letter was not usually issued till the month of August, and he did not su pp ose the usual course would be departed from. The subject, he be- lieved, was now under the consideration of the Etwle- siastical Commissioners. FIRE INSURANCES. Cu!. SIBTHORP gave notice of his intE ration to move certain returns connected with fire insurances on Monday next. COLLEGE OF SURGEONS. Col. THOMAS WOOD wished to know, from the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he intended to propose uny remedy for the grievances under which the College of Surgeo ns laboured ? Sir JAMES GRAHAM was at a loss to understand to what allu grievances the Honourable and Gallant Member ded. He was himself' not prepared to ad- The colonies were entitled to protection. Legislative int e u r : ference had given them that claim. He said again th at t t h t : price of sugar in this country was not to be measured by amount of duty. Some years ago there was a differential du of 393. against foreign sugar—would liJn. Xl em bers hold del the price of sugar to the con;umer was thereby so rilueb.L.-r, hanced ? The facts were entirely against such a stlPP°.'" t b If nineteen or twenty parts of the sugar consumed i n t i a l country were imported from foreign countries at the difrerer,of duties mentioned, then the argument might apply, but surelY,l'. when the case was reversed. We were now near the coaditit, in which we were in 18'23, when our colonies enabled Lis to exporters of sugar. 13 1 v Sir WILLIAM CLAY said the speech of the HO; ad, ronet who had just eat down was entirely beside the q uestl °hel tl.e Hon. Member for Stockport. If their colonies farnl4.d, a supply for exp .rtation above what we required, then hegth, mitted that there might be some force in the argument ° s i r s d Hon. Baronet, and that the differential duty would net rot, the price of sugar, but that was not the state of things at 1) 1 ° 1 ,0 o The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the C ro vernmel lt hio I actually calculated upon being obliged to import a conside , f d s v t quantity of foreign sugar—( Hear, hear)—rnd there coe: 101 to s no doubt but the differential duty enhanced the erice, it ts r $ the extent mentioned by the Hon. Member fur Sto ck e or least to a very considerable extent. 1 TMr BORHWICK considered the supposition o f the grit Member for Stockport as absurd, and thought he a nswere in M i own statermire. .) 1 r. C. WOOD said the question of the line. Mem ber eel ' Stockport related to the price of all colonial sugar , a s coot' reo with foreign sugar, and he did not think the slightest p d hod Set been made towards answering it. He hope" „leo 1 Member of the Government would attempt to give 31 , answer to a plain and practical question. The G o vern d did not deny that the effect of this measure would b e t° l' o los 1 a tax on the people of this country, for the benefit of the wo , $ nial producer. The question asked by the lion. Memb er o bis 1 what was the amount of the tax so levied ? In that Hon; he ) Member's opinion it amounted to 2,300,00 01 . He ''' i _g t , re rer wrong in that calculation, but let him be corrected if he and told what the amount of this taxation really was. sn orer ° Lord SANDON thought it would be impossible to 31 .' 0 ( the question in the shape new put.—( Laughter, sod F.r.10, °( " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) But the suell°ll J , n ight the Hon. Member for Stockpot t was erroneous , for ". — tsss with as much justice be contended that we paid !!! t his ation on the 19,000,000 of home-grown corn consumed 1 0 . 00 s f country, the amount of taxation imposed on the 1, 00 .,, en i0d quarters of foreign corn imported here. It never was,_"' t the that protection was intended for the colonies, and ° s a i lors !' people of this country were taxed in coesequence.—'t,‘„or 1 hear, from the Opposition.) Why, Hon. Members oprthey were to some extent protectionists themselves ---at lee'olo3iX! recognised the principle. He admitted the c w ar. protection ; but what he denied was that they could r ° . 0 ,111 amount of taxation in this country, in regard to protect' , sote 1 the amount of differential duty. The argument o f the ; o f Member for Stockport might be very good on the it°,or ties Covent-garden Theatre, but would not be admitted 1 d to House, because it was opposed to common sense all I experience. s een° Mr. MILNER GIBSON wished to mike only °T ie ; f e reig ° Last year it was an undoubted fact that the price of sr eas auger in bond was 215., while the price of colonial saPtthhe 1 345., and therefore 13s. was squeezed out of the 01 0 by the system of protection.-13s. per cwt. was ' to average, squeezed out of the public by colon ial Pr „ass' and, therefore, it followed that the British public 0' 2 e lre ° able to the extent of 13s. Now, they reserve to thee' ry le , the power of squeezing 10s. 6d. out of the English s pillere, By the late law they could squeeze 135., and they otee tamed the power of squeezing 10s. Gd. more than sogridorer cost in the markets of the world. They proposed to JO 2,300,000 guineas from the consumers of this counotr2so,to taxation upon the consumers rather) to the West 1 ,:;,`, , 000 1 • 1 , the colonial proprietors. They gave them, last year, 2ir'retsis! with a 13s. en every cwt., and they now proposed eter, power of charging 10s. Gd., and of giving 2,3 01 M7he gig is to the colonial proprietors, out of the Exchequ er. pad Hon. Gentleman did not say it would not be so. He holl i r heard it stated that his lion. Friend (Mr. Cobtle n d eti tleo o a proved it would be so given, but the Right Hon,' „ v infi te d o did not say it would not be so. it might be MNuse t° 3 Hon. Members on that (the Liberal) side of the 14 ,t their utmost to transfer 2,300,00(1 guineas to the W e e aetrs, and to colonial proprietors, out of the Exchequer of ten 0/4 Mr. BROTHERTON said that the case h ad bee, fors', stated by His Hon. Friend the Member fur Manchest!ors Pt, (Mr. Brotherton) found that during the last a", 3 p er average price of British plantation sugar was 199. '.'„ohlel",l more than for foreign sugar.—t Hear, hear.) The 00 ol io (Lord Sandon) wished tohave the amount of a t a i l lie ( 3 5I Bs. per quarter, supposing that duty to be imposed. est& he Brotherton) believed that it might be roun dl Y ai /50 11 ' oe 8,000,0001. of a burden on the people. It was o re: he confessed, to know what proportion of the slatY ; Woe sugar went into the pockets of the colonial plantersio,o, remembered that when they were discussing , ( 1.. e ' propriety of granting 2.0,000,0001. to the West I L '" o tsl e :', o ) as some compensation for the emancipation of tq h . o the r gentleman from Liverpool called upon him ( I ‘l r ' erse t ' e l i ° and said that he might vote for tha t , ;elate s ?' the country would have the whole 20,000, 00 °" 041. s eel , '"' its pockets in the course osf a few years. Since ` o oer r ei et), , ever, they had paid a sum of 19,000,0001. or liu ° t his more by this system of taxation. If four million s ° i rt to os f weights of British colonial sugar, therefore, 1 , 0, of' ti r efi country every year, it was quite clear that 4,00 ; , h r s o' l oo wire taken out of the pockets of the people of smef, Yes, England gave the colonial planters 4,000p0 fac t S ite and they took hs exchange 3,000,006/. of thei r That was a poor trade, he thought, that Engle r ,hoe' F ls ° the colonies 4,000,0001. of money, and that theY hro peP ti os i 3,000,0001. of goods. He thought the bes t an t he ° s pr, would be to vote a certain sum of money, zed ¢td British colonial and foreign sugar then be eq ualis ' the fact. and lie hoped the House would bea r it 1 ° re for ' during the last five years they had paid 20s. °l° oese, sugar than they required to do. s t th s e,gsiti t° Mr. MITCHELL said the Right Hon. Baron et ea 'O P ber for Stamford had said, that if they took the ll r e i / g0 plantation sugar it would rise the price of the for s ' : lu l / 41 But the Right Hon. Baronet forgot the fact tit 4 oed sugar were raised 3s. per cwt. in that coutitry, `rodePos: raised 3s. all over the continent. What theY,OtheireV, was that they could not compete with foreignerslnbes flips factures, because they paid in that couritry I °, ll 111, 1 ili be r ' sugar and their other necessaries.—( Hear, hea r ' e r es °. care whether the price of sugar were lo w bout tb si provided the same price was maintained throne , „p o, tinent. ale 1 ",, 1 1 1. 0 Mr. VILLIERS said that the Right Ifort. that ee l late President of the Board of Trade, had state d wit h frie d ) Member for Stockport had not put his question 1101,, of eliciting any information. II such were his sietetod wish, he certainly had been very successful. --e4,100, e r They had not yet got a specific answer to his t at ' 4 IS it trusted it would not go forth to the public r losie,! or ha the Bight Hon. Baronet at the head of h c , c lo cs" to d o vernmcnt, or the Right Hon. Gentleman the so d ofe s , r o hi o r Exchequer, could tell how much they had her ~1 h o se ' b y 0 4 1 proprietors. Perhaps either of them could tel r ies so los„ country had paid out of its Exchequer to the c i o v ' eti toOrr. t sugar duties. There was an additional price the'ehor planters for their produce. That was done t o ot b e tial duties. Now surely the Government cou t. ' a ' t t ee ° 110 was the amount of that sum? 'they knew w' he re, ° J, s od in the markets. They knew what it, sold for ores? , ;s0 they would be enabled to purchase it for fro re f o r subject had been deeply meditated durink r ogh t o befi es e they were no doubt prepared, when they ~uo rse y t "(P ot ts this mea-ure, to say what was the i.rice ne e t " Ip oess' b le I ro je on each cwt. of sugar in order to save the We' ti eal u i s o f rts ° anti a laugh.) He would refer them I° e 1 3 0 0, 0 e t written by a gentleman connected wit , h ge t ' o tecl entitled st The Progress of the Nation• • lie d 0 Ile oo e Mr. Porter, and his book was now real' o ath est r ob authority upon the subject upon which it "' net to 0 4 0' 1 call the attention of the Right Hon. Bar°, o oo l l, W ar d° in that work. It said that the in the year 1841, a sum more than they reri u . isoe,° o oo l. 001 sugar, of 5,000,000/. Mr. Porter, of til l . ofte t , h e e se, stated that the British public paid, in 184 s_ a l ue ot io rt jos people in tuts ire ato , o f than they needed to do. He said that the : de s pfr 04 0 trade was 4,000,0001. ; and that if theY, their trade for that year, and retained t h e he to ei to ol given to the growers of sugar, they w°°_, 00°01 tool ocket.—(llear, hear.) If that had hee% u ser , se: Members on that (the Liberal) side of th e ~ P t ' b e r "; ao t ie r I h ave been charged with extrayrigalloe_eo - h oe „,, tie r then be said that the question elooie swered, for if any person wanted to _ of pr ow hst 0 0 ,0 0 ; was paid to colonial proprietors in the shap e Thei bt might look in that work, and know, h p , jf• bong that amount every year for sugar, wh v l e e burgh or Trieste, would have been fi 0,011: 1 el ,r cr tilo from our colonial possessions cost just a s 0 4 t c o, complained of this loss to the P ublic' w oo 1 " 0, o° 4 if, enough, asked for whom they were t" , su i s tier' sr ojse l l They asked the Government for their et" io e ro' should at but barely just that the House ._ e d IP amount of loss the British public s ustain 1 1 ! ) % tent ion. of th e bi pe d Mr. I'. BORTHWICK explainet% the t iel ° do Mr. THORNELY said they had o t t,i ht parliamentary papers throwing sufficie.nei!kt,,ricetsl` o f tt, both as to the quantity imported and l7 : ,: 1 , 0 0 el; io te e rs? foreign sager. He would take the par; ~ v d p e r r io 4 o Hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Haw 3 ' ) , told ti •0 • 1 , te,or use of the House on the 2d of 'May , 18 o ,olP t° • antler 51 had then by him. Ile found that the c0, ,4 os t.,r olo o , do, or sugar in steel year 1640, was 3,15 94,8J i 0 , column w aced the prices of musFa y . a ! r i e e of w o , sn te to.;, prices of sugars from the Brazils. Tne z v a i e s brO :fo set_ t he!? 1840, was 495. per cwt., and that of BO e, thO i r r r o il tO 00 , was only 21s. lid.—showing a thffe ren a c s of 1 re fef e ' r e P o e the prices of British sugars and the t r o j, (hC ,, t he e rr o od s tent of 275. 6d, upon the cwt. It fell, eo r , or tb, 4 1) ' the quantity consumed —namely, 3,s".„eired o itin difference in price, owing to taxation lion of those colonies, of 4,957,87a1. A .° l l ` ° guineas of five millions of moneys, s ,„, E : to o tb f After a few words from Mr. KP-. 3ll)l t it , eot r _ r ece Mr. P. M. STEWART said there a d ! o dd el" ragement for him, after hearing the o1" ° _, t he c°loolo,o ro 1,,/ Members beside him, to rise in defence e °, l _ res tcli r i,' et srL.res,l! But he would remind the House that ..: 1 1 2 , 1 1 ur 0 35: fa t t ey e sp o possessions competing yr ith the slavel sta'a be en s the monstrous legislation to which they o _ ;w o rt! t he , • 11 : e st° 0 0/, (Hear, hear.) The lion. Membee l r _ vote d fe_ i f e oll'i ro tif o se a friend from Liverpool said, that if ..,,„ v r a , „ tion of the negroes in our colonies, tutor 7.l4o y 1 90 ,,s y o j of :Or of f sl r would be repaid in a few Yea"' ac▪ he 5 r jos or , in these possessions. But h period ft", the OP ' 4 dl v 4.5 duction ?In 1833, at the _T, tour o oat "rs' icr ais ir ts i calculated upon an increase in the fac t , s_ icip s e t 000 slaves, the colonies produced 207,1-Kty e the the but since the passing of that measuer.action 0 hi sigeovrso? duced to 107,000 tong. This d r en degree, 01.1 io c rd r d the vetY t ° bro ° , - iti d i' powers of the colonies was owinnzne the Government, owing to the iin t p edi so lo 1( it '• l7- 4 1 receive a fair day's wages for a fair !1▪ , bee, ties, ett, been for those difficulties there wao?l4_,"lo7,oo'cid ( o l f eg t r h e o e s ' e to wh ti o le w d i i s ffi h e e cullttoiesernthi;;ol. (r o , Clement of this question. Instee:`they t : 00 , lif eero p t ; the exportable quantity at . pre o s_f' es arsul'l r ieo t ,y sufficient quantity :for their otherL c oo? his _ 0 10 . 0 0 1.'0 enabled also to export to ,olo of the ii ir hs or o i " threw °cr aVe °l 1 4° tee t e he s e o e o h n m e i r es th e y n the -re -c° ( F le r a ie lt nds w d i e th sirec t i h , ntages ve t he (O r plei, were labouring under disadv.! er _ sen t 51 _ or 5 00 0 re , . 0 , his lion. Friends. Let the Gov nie r 1 bourere sun eie better. The unfortunate sufficiency of free a fond' , sc t h e ir 1 1) 0 meet to get a he restric co o t h e s ment—let them take off t colonists h oe r os or proprietors t wet e 0 e. , , ,r04 positive prohibitions —let the ....... where they liked a ll, let the iriss t° olr e t r e ° e l whence they pleased, and, abort- _ , tish a y nio , let rooly off the differential duties between f or' j - the °° ,, ° trie"lo''aill f no t imported from the colonies.h o thsr e - ,,het t o le i d l thrown into competition wtt 0 , 0 ,41 do Ate j, s he .41t . ` d , least have a free stage, and they t, he relle , ,,,aell hie e r ;ss e o 'ot themselves. They were at prFseu rct he 1 01 . a i d 5 I fi " t o Jo 0 , ill-advised legislation Let him with ,ite.ool mean the Emancipation Act—bu tne d their tras e t ole o c° lleG i (Hear, hear). thrown in the way of extending B at on' 4 jut,.h t A He would say to the Right Hor. or o tter , „ s al dr itl . ,,, take deleterious drugs or other T o tn t he Wal e ( o° :,s e t ; 01 tion ; but take up this subject in of 11 t: _ o a r :, r ee majority of the intelligent Perroduce of trootzle let therd Goo fa, co be admitted into England upon view it ; he would say, let thel term s tha Britich Public because 3,000 quarters of corn had been ad mated last wet•k at a duty 0f20,? _ vise any alteration. ADJOU RNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX. CHEQUER, it was ordered that the House, at its rising, should adjourn to Monday. PROPERTY- TAX. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR cf the EX CHEQUER, the report on the Property-tax Bill was postponed to Monday. WAYS AND MEANS. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. WILLIAMS trusted the House would give him an oppertunity of stating the reasons for his being ab sent last night when the m otion, of which he had given notice, was called on. He hoped he should be able to allay the feelings of the Noble Lord at the heed of the Woods and Forests in doing so. He came down to the House last night to make the motion.; and thinking that the questions that were before the House would occupy a greater length of time than they did, he was too late to bring on his motion. Ile deeply regretted that cir cumstance from what had taken place. 110 could assure the Noble Lord, that in making that motion he could not for one instant imagine that in the slightest degree it could have been conceived that he had any intention of applying anything personal to the Noble Lord or his noble father ; and if the Noble Lord would compare his (Mr. Williams's) motion with the notice he had given, he would find that there was not the slightest difference, either in the wording or the meaning. between that and the entry which appeared in n statement, which iot w .xihfg a ,es\ s : sN l lo a caool i : d ;dedit b si uti e ln f e o d r e t}o, t o h rw e e the Noble Lord's own books. He would read the Noble L ersg,ti t n i ti, d r(aei ' rti s elit ; eit t o)d w yf The statement to which he referred was the Twenty-first R the the Noble Com the manors, missioners teas the 2and(Bot)l;erwliteircih ditaments belonging to the Crown, whi , ch had been sold by private contract by the Co:nraissioners of hrr Ma jesty's Woods and Forests. It was respecting these that he desired to have some explanation. In the state ment to which he referred it appeared that certain lands, containing 7,438 acres and 36 roods, had been sold to his Grace th e D u k e o f N ewcast l e . for 1, 049 /. 1 5 s. 9 d. Now, the notice which he (Mr. Williams) had given was for copies of all surveys and valuations of 7,438 acres and 36 roods of land, belonging to the Crown, adjoining the Duke of Newcastle's llafod estate in Cardiganshire, which had been sold by private contract for 1,0491. 15s. 9d. If the Noble Lord or any other man—he did not care who—could print out the slightest shadow of a shade of meaning ie these words, he would submit that the ob servations of the Noble Lord last night were justifiable. —(Cries of " Order, order.") He begged pardon for alluding to what had occurred on a previous night during his absence. Ile would wish to go into those statements of the Noble Lord ; but, it was contrary to the rules of the House, be would nut further allude to it. Ile made the moti on on public grounds, and submitted to the House that . when they saw such a transaction, without any sort of ex planation —a sale of property be longing to the Crow:n, the fte simple of it fur 2s. lod. an acre—they had a right to demand an explanation. lie wanted to know what the situation of this property was, and accordingly moved for the returns. lie now regretted having. entrusted the motion to another lion. Member, which he thought . a bad practice, and attended with great inconvenience.—(Laughter, and cries of Hear.) In 1839 he made a similar motion, and on the same grounds—he moved for conveyances and all other documents connected with the sale of this manor. What was the consequence of that ? A party had pur chased that property of the Crown, at a low rate, in con sequence of various encroachments which had been made upon the property, through the neglect and supineness of the Commissioners of Woods and Purest , . Poor persons had encroached upon the property, had expended their labeur upon it, and had brought it into cultivation. This had been done because the property had not been properly looked after by the Crown. Tile pur chaser of the property had endeavoured to fore those persons to return their holdings to him. A gen tleman of great public spirit took the matter up, on behalf of these poor persons. The cause was tried three times, and was at last moved into the Court of Queen's Bench—the purchaser still endeavouring to force those poor persons to return the property to him. A representation having beets made to him (Mr.W.Williams) on the subject, he represented it to Lord Duncannon. With that kindnes of heart which was so charac teristic of the Noble Lord, he i . mmediately in stituted a most careful investigation into . the whole case, compelled the purchaser to . withdraw his claim, and the whole affair was amicably adjusted. He thought that after such an occurrence the Nuhle Lord could not be surprised a t his asking for an expla nation of the nature of the transaction attending the sale of the Herod Estate. It appared that the property had bten sold at an excessively eared rate. He had made no charge against the Noble Lord, either that ho Iliad sold, or that his -father had purchased the property improperly. All tnat he wanted was, an explanation of the facts attending the sale , and if he had been in the house last night—(Hear, hear, and laughter)—ho would have moved, as an addition to the motion, that a sche dule should be laid before the House of the encroach ments. It was necessary to have such a schedule, in order to show how the encroachments bad been purchased. He was sorry that he had no opportunity of replying to the Noble Lord, or he should have shown that he had no ground either in justice or anything else for the obser• 'rations he had made. He could assure the Noble Lord, if' the purchase had been made by any one else, if it had been made by two of the most intimate friends he had, he should have moved for the return precisely the same as he had now. He had no motives whatever except to satisfy himself more particularly as to the means that had be. n taken to ascertain the value of the estate. The sales of Crown property by private contract were a fair subject (if inquiry ; fte thought all sales of Crown property ough t to be public and not pri vate. The Crown received a sum of 385,000/. annually in return for these lands, and the Crown estates cer tainly produced a large sum ; but not more than 145,0001. of it went to the 'public Treasury ? Ile contended the department over which the Noble Lord presided re quired looking after as much as any other department of the Government. At present, most of the revenue de rived fronsCrown lands was spent for all sorts of purposes. With regard to the charge brought against him by the Noble Lord, he had only to say that he would never shrink from the performance o f a public duty, howevee disagreeable that might be—(Cries of " Oh, oh," from the Ministerial benches)—and he . repeated his regret that he was not in the House iv last ni not i gh . t to bring forw a rd the motion of which he had g en ce. The Earl of LINCOLN said that the Hon. Member for Coventry had deemed it necessary to enter it.to a long - cerplanatior., for the purpose, as it appeared to him, of justifying the motion of which he had given ne tb.e. Ile (Lord Lincoln) begged distinctly to repeat what he had stated on the last night, that this motion lA'a a gross imputatli n on laini F eF, as far as his rublic character was concerned. Ile did not blame the lion. Gentleman for bringing forward this übject. If he sus pected a public servant, he wa: quite right in bringing it forward. W hat he (Lord Lincoln) did say, and \llia; he conceived he hail a right to ray, was, that when the lion. Member had placed the notice on the beolts of the llouse—a notice, the plain intent and meaning of which was, to charge corruption to a public servant in the discharge of his official cluies— when such notice had once appeared uron the hooks of the Ii ores it s-as an injustice to him (Lord Lincoln) and towards the public. who were as much interested in the character of their servant, as himself was—(fiear, hear) —m-t to bring that subject forward at the very earliest oppertunity, in order to give that public servant an opportunity of clear ing his character. The lion, Member for Coventry had not yet even acknowledged the injustice of the imputa tion in the motion which he brought forward. Ile (Lord Lineoln):agreed with the lion. Member that any Hose Member giving. notice of a motion should bring it for ward himself. But why, lie asked, (I'd the lion. Menibtr for Coventry riot act on his own principles, and bring this inetion fore and himself ? Why did he leave it to the Hon. Member for Montrose to do so in his abseeee ? That was one cause of complaint lie had against the Hon. Member fur Coventry. Another was, that lie had put a notice en the hooks which bore on the face of it ie most unfair representation of the facts. The Hen Gentleman, with a perversion of vision, had read the motion on the books, and then the extract from the report of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, in a manner which was intended to convey to the House a most unfuir representation of the case, and he would not be wrong in supposing. with an evident intention to mis lead the House of Commons, and to lead the public to a different interpretation than the facts of the case v,Ar ranted. What was the extract which the Hon. Gentle man had quoted ? It would be found in the 29th page of the report issued by the Commi,sioners of Woods and Forests in August last—" To sale of certain parts or portions of land adjoining to the Hafed estate." What was the motion of the lion. Member ? It was for a return of all surveys and valuations of 7,438 acres of land sold for 1,0491. 15s. 9d. The Hon. Member had shown by his statement—though he was absent from the House last night, that he had read his (Lord Lin coln's) observations upon this subject, in that morning's papers, and therefore he had made himself master of them, and of the explanation he (Lord Lincoln) had given of this affair; and yet the lion. Gentleman now professed to say that that which he had just read was a full and fair representation of the transaction through out, lie (Lord Lincoln) would not now enter upon any further explanation on this subject.—(Hear, hear.) lie conceived that he entered upon it at sufficient length last night ; and he said then, and he would say now, that he was ready to produce, and he would produce, in spite of the remonstrances of the House to the contrary, all the documents connected with the transaction, cal culated to give the fullest explanation, except, perhaps, a mass of letter's which contained a quantity of matter irrelevant to the subject, and which it would be an enor mous and almost useless labour to wade through.— (Hear.) He said last night, and he would say now again, that, even in the absence of these documents, not the slightest doubt remained upon the mind of any other Hon. Member of the House ; but if a suspicion did dwell upon the mind of the Hon. Member opposite, he (Lord Lincoln) hoped, when all the documents were before the House—and indeed he thought he was bound to do so —to bring forward a substantive proposition upon it — (Hear, hear)—and if he did not, he (Lord Lincoln) would then feel himself in a position to impute to the Hon. Member that which would be anything but creditable to Itirti.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had said that if he were in the house last night, the result of the de bate en this subject would have been very different from what it was.—(clear, hear.) Now he (Lord Lincoln) would insist upon the production and the reading of all the documents lie had alluded to ; arid when they had been read he did think that the Hon. Member would be bound, in justice to the public, in justice to that House, and in justice to the lion. Member's fair fame, to place upon the books of th it House a motto t founded upon this investienion.—(L ud cheers.) Mr. WILLIAMS rose amid loud cries of " Order, order," and said he merely wished to say a weird or two in explana tion. Be begged to remind the Noble Lord opposite that his notice was merely to the effect that he would move for copies of the surveyor's valuation of the estate purchased by the Duke of Newt astle, and described in the report of her Majesty's Commissioners of Woods and Forests. 'When be had framed hi' notice upon the subject, he showed it to an Hon. Member opposite, who approved of it ; and he then showed it to the Hon. Member for Montrose, and it was at his suggestion that he had altered it to its present form. With regard to the other things which the Noble Lord had thrown out—(Cries of " Spoke, spoke," amidst which the Hon. Member sat down). Mr. HUME said, as he had been alluded to, he begged to assure his Hon. Friend that he was very sorry that he was not there on the previous evening.—( Hear, hear.) He had meant to act kindly to the Hon. Gentleman and the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) He must confess that when his Hen. Friend consulted hint, he said that the entry was very sus picious, but he advised him to get the papers first, and not commit himself before he was acquainted with the facts. He promised his Hon. Friend, not only that he would assist him in getting the papers, but if they were not satisfactory, in obtaining " further inquiry." That was the usual anti proper course for an Hon. Member to pursue under such eireum stanees.—(Hear, hear.) He could not agree with the Noble Lord as to the course which .an lion. Member was bound to pursue, of er bringing forward a subject of this nature ; he thought that if he were satisfied that was a sufficient reason for withdrawing.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He must now confess that, as long as he had been in Parliament, he had never heard an explanation more satisfactory, and more exculpatory than that of the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) He would not be a party to suspending for one moment the duty of freeing the Noble Lord from suspicion. Mr. MACKINNON wished to say a few words in sxpla nati .n. About a year and a half ago, he was treating for the purchase of this estate, and he was fully aware of the claims which the Government might have had upon it. With regard to what had been said by the lion. Gentleman, he begged to pay, that if the estate was sold by auction that it would not bring one-twentieth of what it brought by private contract, because it would be of no value to any other person except the Duke of Newcastle. The subject then dropped. CUSTOMS' DUTIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that if the debate on the property and income-tax was concluded in sufficient time on Monday evening, he would propose to go into a Committee on the Customs' Duties on that night, for the purpose of giving effect to that resolution which repeals the ex port duties. JUSTICES OF THE PEACE BILL. In answer to a question by Captain PECHELL, Sir J. GRAHAM said that if the Justice of the Peace Bill was read a second time that evening, he did not intend going nto Committee on it till after Easter. RAILWAY RESOLUTIONS. In answer to a question by an Hest. MEMBER, Mr. GREENE said that some further resolutions, with re gard to railways, would be ready in a few days. Mr. MILES said that he had a motion for Monday night on the question of the Speaker leaving the chair for the purpose of going into Committee on the property-tax, upon which he was afraid he must occupy some of the time of the House. He hoped the Right lion. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, did not intend by his notice to interfere with that debate. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was not his intention to interfere at all with the motion of his Hon. Friend ; but it was very important that the question of the repeal of the export duties should be discussed. His lion. Friend would have another opportunity of making his motion. Mr. M. GIBSON said that it would not take ten minutes to repeal the duty on cotton. Why not go on with it now ?---( Laughter. ) Sir R. PEEL said that the Han. Member for Liskeard had a very important motion on the subject of the property and income-tax, and till that was disposed of he could not assent to the remission of any taxes.—( Laughter.) lie hoped they would he enabled to proceed with the reduction of the Customs on Wednesday. WAYS A'ND MEANS.—SUGAR DITTIES. On the question that the SPEAKER do leave the chair, n order that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. COBDEN rose to address the House. As they were going to vote a certain amount of protection to the colonial proprietors, there could be no objection, he thought, to that amount being known as well as it could. The Chancellor of the Exchequer calculated that they would receive 230,000 tons of colonial sugar. On that he granted ten guineas a ton protection ; he then calculated on receiving 20,000 of foreign sugar. Now, he ( Mr. Cobden) thought it was evident that before they received that amount of sugar they would have paid the ten guineas a ton on colonial sugar.—( Hear, hear.) Then, the amount they were able to vote in the way of protec tion was 2,415,0001., in fact, the tax they were about to vote would be 3,900,000/., and the tax they voted to colonial proprietors would be about 2,500,0001. That was an amount which would enable the Right Hon. Gentleman to relinquish the window and soap duties, and would leave him half a mil lion of surplus besides. lie hoped, if there was any fallacy in what he had stated, that it would not go uncontradicted. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could net at all acquiesce in the reasoning of the Hon. Gentlemen, or there. sults he had arrived at with respect to the protection of colo nial sugar, in contradistinction to foreign. Lord HOWICK, whose first sentence was inaudible, said the point ought to be cleared up. It was one of extreme import ance. It was a clear and plain proposition, and capable of a categorical answer—aye or no. He understood the point put by the lion. Member for Stockport to be this the Righ t Hon. Gentleman proposed a protecting duty of ten guineas a ton on foreign free sugar ; therefore, if it were not for this protecting dirty, the growers of this sugar could afford to sell it ten guineas a ton cheaper than they actually will sell it ander the proposed arrangement. That was the point, and if it was incorrectly stated, let the Right Hon. Gentleman point out where the error was. If foreign free sugar could be sold ten guineas a ton cheaper, he wanted to know how it was, he repeated, if that duty were removed, why it would not answer the grower to sell it ten guineas a ton cheaper ? He saw no reason why it should not be so. 'I he only difference would be that the Treasury would receive ten guineas a ton less. The point put by the Hon. Member for Stockport was, that if foreign sugar can he offered ten guieneas a ton cheaper than colonial sugar, would not colonial sugar, if obliged to come into the market on equal terms with foreign sugar, be reduced in price ten guineas a ton ?—( Hear. ) And in truth was it not to prevent the fall of colonial sugar that this protecting duty was imposed? He confessed, that after all the debating on the subject, he was at a loss to understand what protecting duties were, if it were not for this purpose. But if they did raise the price ten guineas a ton by this arrangement, and if the quantity men tioned by, the Hon. Member for Stockport would come into the market, he wished to know where was the error of the lion. Gentleman in saying that they were going to impo3e a tax on the consumer of 2,100,0000 Sir R. PEEL said, in the course of last week 3,000 quarters of foreign corn had been brought into our markets at a duty of 20s. the quarter. The consumption of wheat was esti mated at not less than twenty millions of quarters, arid, with the exception of one million of quarters, the whole of the re maining nineteen millions was derived from domestic supply. Did the Noble Lord contend that, because 3,000 quarters of wheat were brought in and paid a duty of 20s. a quarter, that the remaining 19 millions was raised so much in price above its natural cost. How did the Noble Lord reconcile that with the statement made by him the other night on this subject? An attempt had been made to show that, in Jersey and Guernsey, where the trade in corn was free, the price of wheat was not lower than it was in this country. Now did the Noble Lord contend that a tax of 19,000,0001. had been imposed upon the Mr. HUM was surprised at hearing the statement of the Right Hen. Baronet. The Right Hon. Baronet was positively misstating the arguments of his friends —( Hear, hear. ) His fr lends had always contended that the object of the corn-laws was to keep up the price of corn.—( Cries of " No. no," from the ALnisterial benches, answered by cheers from the Oppiisition. ) "[he Right lion. Baronet had not answered the direct ques tion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Stockport.--(Hear.) His Hon. Friend had atated the exact amount and the exact quantity, and although it was possible that the actual amount did not all go into the pckets of the West Indians—(Cheers from the Ministeriil benches)—yet there could be no ques tion but that a proportion, and a very large proportion, of that amount did find its way into their pockets.—(Cheers.) The question was, what was that amount? That depended en tirely upon the quantity. That was the question which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been called upon to answer, end to that question no answer had been given. Why, let them take eyed the case of corn. There could be no doubt but that the imposition of the duty tended to raise the price of corn throughout the country. They might tell him that a ri , e of one in twenty would not produce any perceptible effect. It might not, but a rise of one in seven or of one in five would produ: e a very great effect, and that would be suf ficient to show how fallacious was the argument of the Right lion. Baronet.—(lea ) The Right lion. Baronet had, in fact, shirked the question.—( Cheers. ) Why did he go to corn ?—( Hear, hear.) Why did he not keep to sugar ? ( Ilear. ) He haul gone to corn, because he thought it would attract more attention. —( Hear.) Sugar was the subject of discussion at the present moment snd let them keep to sugar. —( Hear, hear.) Before he sat down he would offer a little advice to those Hon Gentlemen opposite who were pressing the Right lion. Baronet on this subject. He would advise lion. Members who supported the West India interest not to drive their pretensior.e too far, or they would make it appear evident that that relief would not be extended to the country from the reduction of the sugar duty which the country was entitled to expect.—( Hear, hear.) The time was fast ap proaching when any protection would be entirely out of the question. lie was anxious to see the West Indians amply supplied with labour, and to see them prospering, but if they persist in pursuing the present course, the country would soon consider that they were not worthy of that consideration which had hitherto been extended to them. Hew ished to see questions denuded of all that intricacy and of all that fallacy which had been had recourse to, simply to hide the fact that this protection imposed a heavy tax upon the country. lie wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer would consider the question, argue it fairly, and show what would be the real effect of imposing this additional duty on foreign sugar. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the argument which had been used by the Right Hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, in reply to the question of his Hon. Friend the Member for Stockport anal to the observations of his Noble F 1 iend the Member for Sunderland, did appear to him one of the most extraordinary evasions which he had ever heard. The plan of the Government supposed a regular trade in sugar to this country, to the amount next year of 20,000 tons of foreign sugar. His Hon. Friend had contended that the price paid for colonial sugar would be governed by the p: ice of the foreign sugar. Entirely evading that argument, the Right Hon. Baronet, with what in so able a debater he must believe could only be a desperate plunge of despair, said that he was bringing forward a precisely analogous case in the cir cumstances of the corn trade. What were the circumstances of that trade as described by the Right Hon. Baronet himself? That there was a quantity of 3,000 quarters of corn imported into this country, to meet 20,000,000 quarters of home-grown, and that this 3,000 quarters of foreign corn bad the same effect on the 20,000,000 of house-grown, as the 20,000 tons of foreign sugar would have on the 230,000 tons of colonial sugar. But there was this difference in the cases—the Right Hon. Baronet supposed, when he spoke of those 3,000 quarters of foreign corn, that its importation had bees a favourable speculation to the trader, but he believed the Right Hon. Baronet would find that this was contrary to the facts of the ease. Had it been under the operation of the sliding scale—( Hear, hear)—a winning speculation ?—( Hear, hear.) Had the transaction been of a nature to encourage the importation of corn in future? He was astonished the Right Hen. Baronet should have ventured to use such an argument. What was the state of the corn trade at the present moment? A large quantity of foreign corn, after having been kept in warehouses for a considerable time, at a loss to the importers, became at last so damaged that it was impossible it could afford to pay duty, and rather than pay it it was thrown into the river.—( Hear, bear.) By the operation of the sliding scale the trade in corn was rendered a destructive one—( Hear, hear)—and the Right Hon. Gentleman gravely compared it to the sugar trade, which he intended to introduce into this country—he endeavoured to establish a perfect analogy between circumstances entirely dissi milar. He hoped that, however the scheme of corn duties might have pleased the Right lion. Gentleman, the infliction of a curse in sugar duties, on a similar principle, would be spared to the country. Ilis (Mr. Labouchere's) purpose in rising was to protest against the argument brought forward by the Right Hon. Baronet, that a principle founded on circumstances ap plicable to corn would afford an argument which would equally apply to sugar. There never was a more complete failure at an answer than in that attempted by the Right Hots. Gentle man.—( Hear, hear.) Because 3,000 quarters of foreign corn had, forsooth, been introduced in one week—and it would be absurd to say that that could have any effect on the price of the corn consumed in the present season—it was attempted to show that there was some analogy between that case and the case of foreign and colonial sugar, as affected by the Bill in troduced by her Majesty's Government. Mr. GLADSTONE said there were two questions before the House, and -there was considerable complaint on the on side and on the other, because they had not been answered. A question had been put by an Hon. Gentleman on the other side, which lie had no hesitation in saying did not originate in a desire of gaining information. —( Hear, hear. ) His Right Hon. Friend., the Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel), had ob served to the lion. Gentleman, that two could play at that game, and had excited considerable irritation by his mode of retort.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Gladstone) believed that a fair answer was never given to such a question as that of the Hon. Member for Stockport. One Right Hon. Gentleman opposite said it was not fair to take the small quantity of corn which came in within a week, and to argue from that as if it formed an appreciable portion of the trade. lie did not know that. lie differed from him upon that point ; but he would give a slight modification of his Bight Hon. Friend's question. In 1843, there were introduced one million, or one million two hundred quarters (that, at least, was not an imperceptible quantity ), and it paid about Iss. a quarter. In 1844, there came in about eight or nine hundred thousand quarters, which paid about 17s. a quarter. He asked Hon. Members whether, looking at the average of wheat in 1843 and in 1844, they would hold that the pr ice of wheat was not raised in 1843 by 15s. a quarter, and in 1844 by 175., over what it would have been without a corn law ? The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr Labouchere) said that upon the 3,000 quarters money was lost. But did the 1,000,000 quarters introduced in 1843 involve a loss of money ? If so, why were another million imported? The Right lion. Gentleman had said, that a quantity of corn had been thrown into the river in consequence of the prejudicial operation of those protective duties at one time. Why, of course, if the Right Hon. Gentleman referred to a trader in desperate cir cumstances for arguments of this sort, he could no doubt find many of them. The Hon. Member had referred to a paper of six or seven years old, and it was from that he had read the occurrence of a quantity of corn having been thrown into the river; but he (tlr. Gladstone) would ask, how could a state of things of a date so far back be made analogous to those of the present?—( Hear, hear). On the whole, he ( Mr. Glad stone) did think that the proposition of his Hon. Friend near him was founded on principles consistent with justice, and sound truth and equity.—( Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Stockport had said that it was a plain question of arithmetic, and he argued that if the duty, say upon 200,000 tons of sugar, was to be 10s. 6d. the cwt., that the price of the sugar to the dealer would be the same per cwt. in addition. But he ( Mr. Gladstone) would ask, how did the lion. Member mean to make the sugar duties applicable to the principle on which the duties on corn were regulated ?—( Hear, hear.) If the Hen. Member meant to argue that, because 10s. od. was the duty on sugar, 10s. 6d. should be the addition to the price, let him do so; but he (Mr. Gladstone) differed from him, and con tended that the fact was not so, and objected that such should be assumed as the fact. Amongst the many points which might be introduced into this subject, in order that it might be submitted to a full and fair discussion, was this one :—Suppose that British sugar was not worth by twn.thirds what foreign sugar was, and that the duty on British sugar was 10.. per cwt., and that on foreign was Os., surely the 235. duty on the more valuable article was only a fair, proportionate ad valorem duty.—( Hear, hear. ) As to the Hon. Gentleman putting this in the form of a question, and endeavouring to get an answer, whether it came to one million or two millions and a half, though as a mere stratagem in debate, there might be no objection to such a course. But as a question for information —though he would not say it was deserving of no attention — yet it was desirable that an answer such as that given by his Right lion. Friend should be given to it, who put a question to the Hon. Gentleman, which he hoped some Hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House would be disposed to answer more satisfactorily.—( Laughter. ) Mr. ROEBUCK said that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had said that the Hon. Member for Stock port had put a foolish question, which was answered by another foolish question of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Hear, hear. ) But the Hon. Member for Stockport put a very pertinent question, in his opinion, and it was answered with exceeding dexterity by the Right lion. Baronet, for he answered one part but not the whole. The question of the Hon. Member for Stockport was a plain, clear, definite, and brief question, un derstandable by anybody. Nothing of that character could be applied to the answer of the Right lion. Gentleman.— ( Hear, hear.) The question was, "if a certain amount of duty be placed on foreign sugar as a means of protection, what is the loss to the consumer by that protection ?" That was the real meaning of the question. 'I he Hon. Member said that the loss to the community must be measured by the gain to the planters. But that was not altogether the case, for the loss was derived in part from the quantity of labour and capital thrown away, and therefore the protective duty would only give a partial protection. The question of the Hon. Member for Stockport was accurate enough, but when it was asked whether the importation of 200,000 quarters of corn would in crease the price of corn, he did not think that was an accurate question, because the quantity was so small, but if it were large, it would be an accurate question. And, therefore, the question :put by the Hon. Member for Stockport was a question put for information sake alone. !What was the protection of ten shillings put on for ? On this sub ject he held a letter in his hand, a letter written by a Gentle man named Gladstone—( Hear, hear)—in the Times of that day, in which he said they must protect the colonists—that was, in effect, saying they were to have worse sugar at a higher price. It was supposed they derived great benefit from the %Vest and East India colonies. He denied that altogether. The value of the West India colonies was to be measured by the exact amount of our loss. They paid them :a large tax in the shape of duty on sugar, and it had not been shown why this country should pay them more than 2,000,0001. of money every year in the shape of protection duty. Sir GEORGE CLERK said, the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath advanced an argument which no other Hon. Member would, he believed, be inclined to support him in— that our West India colonies were rather a loss than an advan tage to us. He would not, therefore, apply himself to this question, but rather reply to the observations of the lion. Member for Taunton who admitted that some protection ought to be extended towards our colonies, and was not satisfied that they should enter into unlimited competition with foreign countries. The Hon. Member for Stockport had put a specific question, and had drawn an inference which the premises did not justify. He presumed that because there was a differential duty of ten guineas a ton on foreign free sugar, and the amount imported, 230,000 tons, that the people of this country were thereby taxed to the amount of 2,300,000/. Now, that argu ment was altogether irrespective of the quantity supplied by the colonies, and the greater the colonial supply the greater the amount of taxation on the people of this country.—(No, no. ) Ile admitted that if the supply from the West Indies was in considerable, and that we were obliged to take our sugar front foreign countries, the protective duty would be very much felt. But at the present moment, when the sup ply imported from our foreign possessions could be (greater than ever was consumed in a single year by the people oft its country, how could they be subjected to a tax of 200,00 d duties, 300,0001. ? If they were at once to remit all protectiveee i , th u e nv l r ni b tn y ed a i s a i t n e al c l o r n e s d e , q v u ,t , i i o n i c , the growers would, in moat instances, give consequences s n t ra he ig price ht be o favourable sug sugar, bt:, :ou u l c d a t n t ..: afterwards highly injurious even to the F onium , r h g eir cl piant f: ticns, and its culture would be to a great extent Tal discontinued.