The Sun. — London, England, 1836-06-21 00:00:00

~••••61. he hail kept his word—because he had done that which the Han. Meinter had endeavoured to do, r,ot an'y 4he Hon. Member, but many of those Han. M.smbers who' had suppor ted him on the occasion alluded to, 1 - ad attar:l:yd him (the Chancellor of thC Exchequer) in a most undisguised, in a mac unremitting, he would say in a most cruel manner— bad charged him with forgetting every promise, and disregard of the public interest—although he had only done that which he had a right to do, but had proposed a considerable re tiuction of the duty on paper.--( Hear, hear.) He had done this, sot, he might without offence say, because they had asked..him to tie it, but because he considered it just and right, end calculated to promote the public advantage ; because he effiasideted It due to the station he had the honour of filling ; because, having pledged himself to the principle last year, he felt it right to act ttvon his pledge this year, and that the fluan rid circumstances of the country were such as to admit of the relief.—( Hear, hear.) The change which had taken place in the political condition pf the country mad , it essential to com municate to the people sound political knowledge and infor mation —( Hear, hear.) The security to the House that it Should live ip . the affections and confidence of the people, to the Government that it should enjoy the confidence of the na tion, and to the Monarch that lie should reign in the hearts of his subjects, depended on the diffusion throughout the country of sound political knowledge.—( Hear, hear.) They bad given to the 101. householders the right of enjoying the Parliamentary franchise—they had given to the inha bitants of towns free municipal institutions—would they, Could they, withhold from them the means of accurately judging passing events? He would advert to the publica tion of the votes of that House : in the first instance, powerful arguments had been used against such a proposi tion, and it was only by degrees that the Hon. Member for St. Albans had succeeded in effecting such a change from the old system. Now the name of every Hon. Mem ber was recorded with every vote which be gave, and the useful principle was acknowledged that what was known in the House should be known elsewhere—( Hear, hear)—that what concerned the public in the proceedings of the Go vernment, should be promulgated and judged of by the public through the medium of the press , of a stamped press, responsible to public opinion.—( Hear, hear ) He conceived that a penny duty was not more than might fairly be required from Newspapers, in consideration of their free circulation through the Government. There were many parties who, when the duly was reduced to that amount, were prepared to come forward, and provide for the moral and religious instruc tion of the people, as well as their political instruction, by mssans of a stamped Press ; and he had received many pressing applications from persons of the first respectability and character, who were prepared and desirous so to supply these wants of the community. He well knew that the taste of the people of England was such, that they would never consent to prey upon garbage if the means of attaining better food were provided for them.—( Hear, hear.) It had been his fate to reau much of the unstamped press, for from time to time large packets of them had been forwarded to him ; and he had observed, that just in proportion as the respective papers bad increased in circulation, had their quality improved.— (Hear, hear, hear.) Indeed nothing could be more strikingly than the difference between the character of some of these papers in their outset and their present quality. And what was the cause of this improvement? Simply their increased cir culation,—(Hear, hoar.) A paper, while it was confined to a particular and limited class of readers, might adapt itself to pandering to the passions or bad feelings of its readers; but when its circulation became more extended and general, its character must change—just as a brook when confined to a narrow channel, may be turgid and boisterous, but when en larged into the broad expanse of a river, it goes smoothly and plaaidly on its course. To all those who wished to put an end to contraband publications, he now appealed for sup port. Those. Hon. Members who had supported the Hon. Member for Lincoln last year he relied upon for their co operation. It was true that he differed from some of them as to the proposition of entirely repealing the stamp duties; but he hoped he had convinced them that it was much better to share the relief between Newspaper Stamps and the paper duties, than to confine the relief solely to Newspa per stamps. He was sure that they would admit that the reduction proposed on paper was a much more beneficial re lief than taking off the remaining penny of Newspaper Stamps. The advancement of knowledge would eqnally be promoted by the reduction of the paper duties, in aiding the promulga tion of books, the more permanent and higher class of the literature of the country.--( Hear, bear.) On these grounds be hoped the House would concur in the proposition with which be bad set out. He trusted he had shown that the proposi tion advanced in opposition to his views would not produce the good consequences talked of; as to that proposition being one likely to give relief to the agriculturalists, it was altoge ther out of the question, and no gentleman in his senses could accede to it as such. It was equally erroneous to sup pose that the suggested reduction on Soap would increase the consumption on that commodity, or prevent the frauds which the Excise were now unable to prevent in connection w l;-.11 the article. He called upon all the defenders of the interests of the Exchequer to support his proposition, and to assist him in effecting a measure which would at once put an end to all those flagrant violations of the law which were now being daily committed before their eyes, and to those prosecutions and imprisonments which, instead of enforcing the law, only served to cast an odium upon it in the eyes of the people.—( Hear, hear.) He asked them to put an end to a state of things under which the violators of the law, in stead of being disavowed by the people, were the objects of their sympathy, were honoured with processions, and had their fines paid by public subscriptions throughout the country. Be again expressed his dissent from 'either of the two ca tivo,- „}„„,,,„. 1.-1 been broached, and he stated his determination to adhere to his original proposition.—( Hear.) Mr. GOULI3URN said the simple tidestion they should not substitute for the Right Hon. Gentleman's preposition to reduce the Stamp Duty on Newspapers, the Hon. Gentleman's proposition to reduce that on soap. He must give his opinion in favour of the proposition of his Hon. Friend near him.—(Hear.) Before he proceeded to discuss the particular question before them, he would just advert to a point touched upon by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. 'The Right Hon. Gentleman bad stated that the revenue was competent to bear the charge of the reduction of the Stamp Duties on Newspapers, but not competent to bear the charge of a reduction of the duties on Soap, because, as he said, he did not anticipate from a reduction of the duty on Soap that corresponding increased consumption of the article which was essential to make up for the loss derived to the revenue from the decreased duty. Now the report of the Excise Commission er,: gave quite a contrary opinion, for they distinctly stated that any Additional decrease in the duty on Soap would lead to a correspending increase in the consumption of the article, put ting Ireland out of the question. The Hon. Member for Surrey hall actually stated, that the former reduction in the Soap Duties had not been sufficient to enable the fair dealer to cope with the contraband dealer, but this object would be fully effected by the additional reduction now proposed. The con sumption of Soap bad only increased since that reduction, in what he would call the rural d istrict s of En g land. In Lon don: it had decreased. The year before the reduction took place, the quantity of Soap brought to charge in the metro polis was 3,t290,0001b5. The quantity brought to charge the year after the reduction had so far diminished as to show a decrease of half a million. In Scotland, the year before the reduction took place, the quantity of Soap brought to charge Wa3 11,300,0001b5. The year after the reduction the quantity was only 10,400,00011)5.: thus, in both eases, clearly showing, that the reduction had by no means been sufficient to defeat the smuggler. In the rural districts of England, where there were not the same facilities to the smuggler to obtain improved material, some slight increase had taken place. An additional reduction of the duty was absolutely necessary, in order to put the fair trader on terms at least of equality with the frau dulent trader. The first argument used by his Right Ho nourable Friend was, that the duty on Soap was an in creasing duty, and the Stamp Duty on Newspapers was a decreasing duty ; and his Right Honourable Friend coittended that he was pursuing what was an admitted principle of finance, when he proposed to reduce the ditty which teas de croasing, rather than that which showed an increase as com pared with the last year. With respect to the decreasing duty on jsfe.,vspaper stamps, his [tight lion. Friend said that the duty in 1831 was 483,000/., and in 11335 it was only 455,0001., and he considered that that reduction in the amount of the Newspaper duty entitled him to call it a decreasing duty. His Right Iron. Friend most give him leave to say, that as to that fact he could not agree with him. If they looked at the returns of the amount of the stamp duty for five succesive years, the conclusion to which they would come would be the very opposite of that which his Right Hon. Friend derived from Lis account. The average of the five years ending 1830, was 413,000/., and the average of the five years ending in 1835, was 464,000/. Taking the produce then of the five years, it would be found that they Lad an increasing duty in the stamps eu Newspapers. But when his Right lion. Friend selected 1831 as the test of his comparison, did he not recollect that at the period in question there was in this country an extraordi nary degree of political excitement, and a proportionato anxiety t o be informed of all the proceedings in Parliament, which continued during a far greater portion of the year than had ever before been consumed in discussion in that House ? (Hear, hew%) At the same time also, in foreign countries, events were 6ccurring of immense importance, which excited feelings of great anxiety. There was then, in 1831, that de gree of political excitement which raised the Newspaper Stamp Duty to such a height that it must recede. He said it must recede, because his Right Hon. Friend would observe, that in periods of great political excitement the Stamp Duty received a great addition, and then it declined till some other cause of excitement arose. la 1831 the Stamp Duty on Newspapers rose to an amount such as they had never before reached. They fell in the subsequent y ear , not what was the cause? Last year, instead of decreasing, as AqMplrOd With 1834, there was an increase. Every reduction of the duty o n Snap contributed-to die increas4xel „. the of. the 9r c t o he rnf'ort, health, and Ole enjoyment of every rn,o commu nity. Now cculd they say the same of the Moa ,, l):lppr Stamp Duty ? Were not N e wspapers limited to a certain eiria-;,-; ? He found by the returns of the number of stamps issued, that there were not more than about 000,000 persons who took in Newspapers. The number then who wocp the takers in of Newspapers, were the numbers who would be 4; ;;R d y affected by the relief resulting from a reduction of' the duty, and thus the relief was to be to the 300,000. The Soap Duty he had said affected every itterst.4 g the com munity ; a reduction in shat therefore, instead of reticsititi onlx 300,000, would give relief to fourteen millions of the Population. He dill jot mean to say - that not more than 300,000 persons read lkfewapapers—be only spoap of those who took them in, and he contended that only they w 0441 be materially affected by the reductior, He knew very well that every Newspaper that was taken seas real; by a con sideratle number, and viewfaig the subject in that way ; the relief would be equivalent to a twentieth part of the likote. The difference was between the twentieth pert of a Wnny And 41- cid ad, His fie)), Friend said the duty An Soap had been already reduced, and ethers must take their turn ; therefore he now proposed to relieve the Newspapers. It was true that in 1833 there was repealed half the duty on Soap, but was nothing done for Newspapers on that occa sion? Was not the duty en advertisements reduced in the same year from 3s. 61. to ls. Gd. ? That was a great advan tage to the Newspaper editors. Bearing in mind the reduction of the duty on advertisements, he would ask, was the Right Hon. Gentleman justified in saying that Newspapers had had no indulgence shown to them ? Had all the indulgence been shown to the manufacturers of Soap? tie viewed the two questions as standing equally before them, and he would ask the House which duty they ought to repeal ? He approved of the principle that they should reduce first the taxes on the necessaries (AMC ; but Newspapers, in his opinion, came more properly under the head of luxuries. His Right Hon. Friend said he wished to see the Newspapers in the poorest cottage, and he was himself one of those who would not withhold from the humbler classes the instruction which they might derive from Newspapers. But did his Right Hon. Friend ima g ine that the reduction of the price of the Newspaper from 7d. to sd. - would have the effect he desired? When they bore in mind the amount of the labourer's was es, did they believe that he would afford even a weekly Newspaper, though the price should be reduced to 4d. ? That class of individuals were in the habit of associating for the purpose of reading. the News papers in common.—( Hear.) The greater part of the com munity, then would derive no benefit of the reduction of the duty on Newspapers. His Right Hon. Friend said that his proposition had the recommendation that it would have the effect of putting an end to a species of smugg-Eng. On the part of the subject he would appeal to the report of the excise commissioners. "Non meus hic sermo." Speaking of the reduction -of the duty on Soap, they said they had no doubt it would materially affect the smuggling that went on in that article. His Right Hon. Friend applied the principle to the reduction of the Duty on Newspaper Stamps as a cure for the smuggling, but he must dispute that position. His Right Hon. Friend said there were parties who managed to under-sell the daily press by evading the Stamp Duty, and he proposed to give some additional advantage to the daily press by reducing the amount of the duty. The duty, however, in this case, - did not operate as it did in the case of spirits, where, if they repealed the duty, they put an end to the illicit dealing which resulted from the power of the smuggler to under-sell the fair trader. He maintained that the power to under-sell would continue even when his Right Hon. Friend had repealed his twopences on the Stamps. What was the nature of the contest carried on with the daily press? It was the con test of men who went to no expense against men who went to great expense in providing the article which they offered to the public. The editor of a London journal went to an enor mous expense to procure intelligence. He incurred a very great expense, if he might say so without being out of order, to obtain accurate reports of what occurred in this House.— ( Hear, hear, hear, and- cheers.) He went to a still greater expense for foreign intelligence; he had to establish foreign correspondents—expresses anticipating the arrival of the post brought him intelligence from abroad. These were amongst the expensive arrangements made to secure early information to meet the wishes of those who took in his paper. Such, then, constituted the real tax which the Morning Papers had to pay. Talk of the twopenny stamp in comparison with these cxpences, why, it was as nothing. Would he be able to pro tect that press which paid for information, against that press which did not? Would he be able to prevent information ob tained by the Morning Chronicle or the Times, at a great ex pense, from being made available by the publishers of the penny Newspapers, while the others were published at 4d. or sd. ? And what would be the result if he could prevent it ? He would not say that the daily Newspapers would be ruined by the curtailment of their profits, but he would call the at tention of the House to the more fatal consequences that would ; ensue to the general interests of the country. The editors of the present respectable papers, not able to compete with their antagonists, would be compelled to forego obtaining that information, which was now so accurately given. The press generally would be reduced to this—they would no longer be aisle to give accurate, information of what fell from Honourable Members in this House, or of other events of great interest with the public. He feared that they would in this way lower the general tone of the press of the country—( Hear, hear)—and prevent it from being the channel for the dissemination of useful information. He begged to warn the friends to the dissemination of knowledge amongst the people, against lowerir ' s the tone of the press of this country. When he compared the daily press of this country with the Newspapers of other countries that came be fore him, he confessed he was proud of the superiority. He saw that-subjects were discussed in it on one side and the other with the greatest ability. Sometimes, it must be ad mitted, the daily papers yielded too much to the excitement which existed, but, generally speaking, they were distin guished by great judgment and temper. When he looked at the Newspapers of America, which were referred to a model of what Newspapers ought to be, he must confess he saw in the Newspapers of England a superiority in the character, the style, and the manner of discussing political questions, which convinced him that if they had not the advantage of a low amount of duty, they had, nevertheless, some other advan tages of a most important nature, which they derived from the amount of duty, and their other press regulations.— (Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, he had no hesi tation in preferring the repeal of the duty on Soap to the ree peal of the duty on Newspapers. Mr. C. BULL Elt thought the Hon. Gentleman - had shown very little acquaintance with the press of other coun tries. He was as little inclined as any man to give the palm of-superiority to any other nation, but he should blush for our literarture if he thought it as much inferior as he con, silered the daily press of this country was inferior to that of France.--( Opposition cries of " Oh.") He would say that and literary character connected with the press of this country, who could at all compare in this respect with that distin guished writer M. Chateaubriand. The Hon. Gentleman opposite feared the character of the press of this country would be lon ered, and he contended that there would be the same piracy as before. 'He said the question was not the amount of duty, but the expense of acquiring information. Why, was the Hon. Gentleman aware of the existence of Evening Papers ir s this country, and that those Evening Papers co pied almost entirely their information from the Morning. Papers? Those who now dealt illicitly, after the reduc tion of the duty would no longer have the sympathies of the whole country in their behalf. This was a question to which the House should give its best attention. They might enforce what Stamp Duty they pleased ; but they would not be able to enforce it while the feelings of this country were what- they were at present. He believed that none had suffered more than Hon. Gentlemen opposite from the ignorance of the people. Experience ought t o h ave p rove d to them that it was not their interest to keep the people in darkness. The excitement of the people was owing frequently to the exaggerations of falsehoods, which were only credible on account of the ignorance of the people. That ignorance was to be attributed to the people not having infOrmation afforded to them on cheaper terms. One reason, for instance, for the people thinking that Reform was necessary was, that in one part of the country they believed that the Archbishop of Can terbury had 80,0001. a-year. In his own county it was believed that the Dowager of a Peer's family, who had not even re ceived one farthing of the public -money, had a pension of 12,000/. a year. This was considered to be another reason for reform. „These were the exaggerations that prevailed, and it was Hon. Gentlemen opposite who produced the state of things. Now, he should say for himself and others, that Radicals, or Reformers, or whatever else they might be, they knew the fruits to b. 3 otherwise; they read the Newspapers, and they knew how absurd such tales were. Now, he must say, that those who opposed the circulation of cheap knowledge, acted most in consistently ; for they trusted the poor man with the franchise, and they would not give him the knowledge of how he ought to exercise it-4 Hear, hear.) lie did not mean that Hon. Gentlemen on the other side could gain much from the infor mation of the people. They might depend upon it, that the power of public opinion would destroy all the abuses which those Hon. Gentlemen sought to sustain. The Right lion. Gentleman stated that Newspapers were a mere luxury. He thought that when the Right lion. Gentleman said so he con nected them with all the agreeable associations connected with the breakfast-table. The question now he believed to be this _whether knowledge was a luxury or a necessary fur the people? Bea, Gentlemen opposite insisted it was a luxury; he, on the contrary, said there was no necessary equal to it— ( Hear, hear)—and any Government would find to its cost how wrong it would act, when it sought to deprive the people of that knowledge which they deemed to be their dearest and most cherished necessary —( Hear, hear.) He wished now to sty a few a words upon another tax, between which and the Saintp-tax there was a competition. The mere question was at present which of the taxes should be taken off? He never had. been Chancellor of the Exchequer, and d:d not know how a gentleman in that situation felt.—(Laughter.) Now, if he ware chancellor of the Exchequer he should think that one great merit in a tax would be, that you could be able to get Thtit circumstance would be superior in hid mind over many important, question's. Another thing was, in whichcase was there the most smuggli ng Tee( Hear, bear, f rom t h e Opposition Members.) In which case would the al , teration be the most beneficial ?—( Hear.) In the very first place, he did not see that there would be any great effect from the reduction of the Soap Duty. Taking the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the Excise Report, It ap. peered that the number of pounds of Soap used by each person e a; s'x pounds and a bait 4 yeti', en that the Right lion. Gen tleman's proposition to reduce the ditty h4Vpia4hy s roams would be to give aid. a year to each individual in the counter)*, vc?y Session there was some new plan io relieve the agricul tural intereat ; what he found fault with in their plans wa s , that each Member brought fee l es ee l plat; which would be locally beneficial to him. He believed of this Wan, that th e goat benefit to be derived from the proposed reduction would be ee psye,l hy the Russians. Upon the last reduction of his low, die arsCeffeet be w e e jefernmq was, that the holders of Russia tallow were advised by their a ti eets i ce ;.:epp it ba t pt, ay the price would rise in the English market. Rodi, he would s i . alr were to be taken off, let it he one which would be beneficial to the agrieuitere of all England. In conclusion, the Hon. Gentleman said, that it appeered hi 11111) it wql hard to reduce the people to the political powerlessness in which they ii , rl placed before the passing of the Retinin Bill. Lorii !Is SiE LT Next addressed the House, but he was heard very indistinctly in the Ballet{ ; It was his opinion as ;Aiinion as to the Soap Duty, that its reduction sseuld be s n'ehLiai 1:o the country at large. By repealing that uuty it would get Via a w gmt mat e y vexatious Excise regulations.— ( Hear, hear, hear.) With tf-Y the press, he felt leaund to say this, dial he was greatly susprise4 ti t hear °IC 1 1411, po Learned Gentleman say , that .lewspapers which inee Ia price to Englisl . l 9 N ,, :w , s v p h a o pe h r a s d superior to m i lthe a r:itttrri;.,,,i li;Crr; " t e r r a ° . ‘•vlkrd recently in America did not concur won hint in that opinion, rot he declared that every vulgar fool who could call names, might let himself up as a Newspaper editor, lii THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, JUNO 21, 1836. England it is fortunately . still different. Newspapers bell: ta expensive, the great body of their supporters are to be found among people of comparative wealth and intelligence, though they practically circulate among the poorer classes in abund ance sufficient for all purposes of information. The public, whose taste they are obliged to consult, is, therefore, of a higher order; and the consequences of this arrangement is apparent in the %ast superiority of talent they display, and in the wider range of knowledge and argument which they bring to bear on all questions of public interest. How long this may continue it is impossible to predict, but I trust the Chancellor of the Exchequer will weigh well the consequences before he ventures to take off, or even mate rially to diminish, the tax on Newspapers. He may rely upon it, that bad as the state of the public press may be, it cannot be improved by any legislative measure. Remove the Stamp Duty, and the consequences will inevitably be, that there will be two sets of Newspapers—one fur the rich and educated, the other for the poor and ignorant. England, like America, will be inundated by productions, contemptible in point of talent, but not the less mischievous on that account. One argument used by the Right Hon. Gentleman for the reductio n of the Newspaper Stamp Duties was, that the papers should be protected against smugglers. It was his opinion that the Right Hon. Gentleman would have to make the same struggle against the smuggler with the Newspaper that cost 5d., that he would have with a Newspaper that cost 7d. This was, he considered, made as one of the many already made in the dangerous course of concession which Ministers were pursuing. Mr. J. S. BUCKING 11 A M observed that a great portion of the crime' that prevailed in the country originated in igno. ranee. The people had not information, and although they had a vast body of laws, the people were riot informed of them. Another pregnant evil which resulted from the present system was, that it .was in the beer-shop and the • gin-shop ' only that the operative could obtain the perusal of a Newspaper. With regard to the counter-proposition of the evening he was not disposed to deny the advantages of having a cleanly popu lation, but he thought it much more important that they should be instructed, for they would then soon find out the value of cleanliness themselves. As long as the present heavy tax was imposed upon Newspapers, an enormous circu lation was required before the publishers were repaid, and the consequence was, that they had to pander to all sorts of tastes ia order to find sufficient readers; there was foreign news for one class, scandal for another, abuse for the third.--( Hear, and Oh 1) The poorer classes of persons were perfectly astonished to see how the rich could tolerate' the abuse and private scandal which loaded the periodical pages of the present day. —(Oh, oh 1) With respect to the present proposal for the re duction of the Newspaper stamp duty, he must be permitted to say, that for his own part he should rather prefer a graduated .nd valorem duty, extending as low as a farthing on a penny paper, which of course should be proportionably smaller and lighter than one published at a shilling, and rated accord ingly. Mr. HANDLEY did not consider the reduction of the duty on Soap would in itself•be a boon to the farmer; and added, that •the Hon. Member for Northampton, in taking this part of his (Mr. Handley's) motion on a former occasion, had taken the husk and left the kernel of it. Mr. 'ROEBUCK rose, amidst loud cries of " Divide," ".Divide," " Withdraw." The present question, said the Hon. and Learned Member, Was not a question of revenue, but a question of party politics.—(Oh 1 oh ! front the Oppo sition.) It was a part of the polities of the party on the other side of the House to keep up that despotic rule, the fruits of which they (the Opposition) had so long enjoyed. The party on his (the Ministerial) side of the House were anxious to free the people of this country from the shackles which their ignorance had so long bound upon them. Gen tlemen on the opposite side of the House did not care one far thing whether the revenue was diminished a few thousands or not; they only pretended to be the farmers' friend on this oc casion, in order to keep up their influence over a cert&n class of the people, and at the same time to perpetuate the ignorance which had hitherto hung about them. An Hon. Member on the opposite side of the House had said there was no need to carry pernicious knowledge into the cottage. He (Mr. Roe buck) contended that knowledge could not be pernicious; lie did not care what opinions might be circulated if facts were also. circulated.—( Hear, hear.) " We see through these men well," added the Hon. and Learned Member.—(" Oh, oh I" and a laugh.) What was it pretended that the reduction of the Duty on Soap would do for the agriculturist? why simply by caus ing an increased demand for tallow, and consequently some in crease in the demand for agricultural produce. But whom would this benefit, small as it was, go to ?—not the agricul tural labourer—not the farmer—but to the landowner if to anybody. In opposing the reduction of the Newspaper tax, Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side had racked their brains for arguments; but why need they go to America, what had America to do with the case ?—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He held, and he was prepared to show it by a comparison of the stamped Newspapers with the unstamped, that the litter were the superior both in respect of intelligence and of morality.—(lronical cheers from the Opposition.) Ay, superior—and he challenged Hon. Gentlemen who cheered to point out a single unstamped Newspaper which contained a tenth of the scurrility, the obscenity, and the downright im morality which was to be fcund in the stamped Newspapers of 'the day.—( Cries of " Oh, oh," from the Opposition.) Had any Hon. Member dared to bring down in his hand a copy of an unstamped Newspaper to support their arguments as to the pernicious nature of its contents ?—( Hear, hear.) No one had done so. On the other hand, he (Mr. Roebuck) could refer them to an article in the Times, where it was stated that a certain individual, whom it was pleased to stile " the big beggarman," was going to be exhibited as a show.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) He should like to know whether the lion. Gentlemen who cheered this did so to show their accor dance in the sentiment which pervaded this article. And yet apiusiog euUatry with tlie pc,bi e i oun effusions of the P r ess. -- What, deluge the country with John Bulls and Ages, and other papers of the kind, taken ex clusively by the higher and richer classes.—( Oh, oh, from the Opposition.) Honourable Gentlemen might cry " Oh, .oh," as their only reply to his assertion—" Oh, oh," was very easily said,,,but he repeated it, and he challenged a denial of his assertion, that the higher classes delighted in printed obscenity—( Cries of " Oh, oh") —delighted also in scandal and personal abuse., They would not find these in the papers circulated in the-pot-house; there was no filth) obscenity, no disgusting personal scandal in these ; it was the rich man's paper, in the parsons' paper—( Oh, oh-)—in the Aye and the John Bull, and these were the papers which pandered to the morbid appetites of the wealthier classes. They paid their sevenpence for it, and they wished to have a monopoly of it, and he was quite willing to allow them; and sure lie was that if the Stamp Duty were taken off News papers to-morrow, there would be no increase in the obscenity circulated by means of the Press. On the contrary, he main tained that the voice of the great body of the people would bear down the the obscenity which already existed in it, and that the aristocracy would at last be ashamed to foster and en courage it.—( Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.) Mr. KE A RSLE Y begged to assure the lion. and Learned Member for Bath that he was riot one of these who cried out " Oh" during the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member. He (Mr. Kearsley) had really never noted anything that had fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member ; he had never condescended to do so.—( A laugh.) He would, however, ask the Noble Lord the Herne Secretary, and the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with what pleasure they had just listened to the disgusting speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath.--( Loud cries of " Order," ." Chair, chair.") The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bernal) was quite sure the Hon, Member could not be aware of the word which had just fallen from hitn._( A voice from the Ministerial side of the House, " Make an apolOgy.") Mr. KEAItSCEV—Sir, I am quite aware that I might have used language stronger than the &rcam.tances required. I admit that the language was strong; but I must say that a mere disgusting speech I never heard.--( Loud cries of order, order !) The CHAIRMAN—I am really very sorry to call the Ho nourable MeMber's attention again to the words which he made use of; but I must beg to repeat it, and in doing so I am in the hands of the Committee, to be corrected, if lam wrong, that the language which fell from the Honourable Member, was such as was never permitted to be used in this House.—(Cheering.) Mr. KEARSLEY-1 am very sorry that the Hon. Mem. ber for Bath, having charged me with what is not true, I can not characterise his speech by other terms.—(Loud cries of order, order ! chair, chair. ) Mr. ROEBUCK then rose, and as well as we could hear, said—l trust the House nil! permit the debate to proceed, and make allowances for what must be looked upon as an infirmity of the Hon. Member opposite.—( Cries of Hear, hear, and Order, Chair.) Mr. METHUEN arose amid loud cries of " Order," arid " Chair." I think, said the Hon. Member, it is due not only to this House but to the country, that the Chairman should declare whether the language of the Hon. Gent!emu oppo site (Mr. Kearsley) is such as should be addressed to this House, or'such as it i s b ecom i ng i n us to hear without repro hension.—(Cries of " Chair," and" Oh, oh.") Fecrne here to do my duty to my constituents, and not for the purpose of listening to language which is unbecoming the dignity of this Houso.—( Cries of " Chair," and 'I Oh, oh.") Mr, BERNAL/ rose, and after saying a few words to those near him, which were not audible in the Gallery, resumed his goat, _ Mr. KEA RSLE Y then rose, and assuming an extremely grave and earnest air, and placing his glass to his eye with one hand, and putting his hat under his left arm, looked very sted fostly across the House at Mr. Methuen, and exclaimed—Sir, when the Hon. Member for North Wiltshire thinks proper so precipitately to interrupt me, I am tempted to exclaitO— " Paul, Paul, why persecutest thou me."--[Here the whole House WOl convulsed with laughter, which continued for seve ral minutes ; and which was much increased when the Hon. Member left his scat on the second row of the Opposition benches, and walked down quietly to the floor of the House, wllVre ; after bowing twice in a style, ;he solemnity of which made it irresistibly ludicrous, he made two efforts to retire, but being stopped at the bar, came back to his place amidst renewed shouts of laughter, and cries of " Chair and order."' The Cli4iPtAN and Dr, BALDWIN rose together. The enantsiaN "ave way, and Dr. BALDWIN proceeded to address the House in repre hension, as we understood, of the disrespectful conduct of the Hon, ,Member for Wigan, but scarcely an obse,•tation which fell ihni the lige ? Alemher could be heard is galltn7, from the loud . cries of 't Order anti The CHAIRMAN and Mr. WALTER then rose. There were loud cries for Mr. WALTER, and the CliaiamAN sat clown. wALM4 felt it his duty to address the House on a subject upon which-he could give some practical information. Ir. 11U\I E—l rise to order, Sir,-4 Loud cri._.s of " Go on, go an," addressed to Mr. Walter.) I wish to ask you, Cililirman, whether the proceedings of thii House arc to lie conducted in the disorderly manlier in which they. have been this evening? Again. sir, as our Chalinian, you have declared (and w . e are prepared to support you in the opinion) 1 that the words used by the Hon. Member for Wigan are tutbr_seoming of him in his present situation.—( Loud cries of " Hear.") The only course left you, then, Sir, as Chairman, is, I apprehend, to call upon the Hon. Member to retract his words ;_ and in easa • of his refusing to do so, I - think that you arc called upon to put in force the authority vested in you as Chairman. —( Hear.) I think a further apology is due from the Hon. Member for his conduct as it regards tto House ; for since I have had a seat in Parliament, I have never seen so lion. Member leave his place, and behave in the manner which the Hon Member has this night.—( Loud cries of hear, hear.) Sir, it is the duty of the Chairman, for the :Ake of preserving the dignity of our proceedings, to call upon the lion. Member to make that apology which in my opinion he is bound to give. The C HAIRMAN—In answer to the appeal which has been made to me, I beg to observe that the Chairman of a Committee has, when called upon, bat one course to pursue with reference to such a question as the present, and that is when an lion. Men.ber rmsconducts or misbehaves himself, the Chairman is imperatively bound by his duty, if the lion. Mem ber refuses to offer any explanation of apology for his con duct, to report the aitatter to the Speaker for the exercise of his superior authority.—( Hear, !tear.) I hope I shall never he found wanting in the performance of that duty whenever I see the necessity of applying for the superior jurisdiction of the Speaker.—( Hear, hear.) - ;Mr. 11. BUL WE R—l think, Sir, under the circumstances ~f the present ease.you are called-upon to exert that authority wide') you possess of reporting these proceedings to the Speaker. Mr. HUM E—l move; Sir, that you report progress, aLd ask lease to sit again. The C lIA IR MAN—As the lion. Member for Middlcs , 2x has moved that I should report progress, and as lie has made as the grounC of his motion a complaint against an Her,. Meni!:er, perhaps he will be good enough to state apecikally what it is.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. II U have no hesitation in saying that my com plaint refers to the observations which the lion. Member made U4O with respect to, my lion. Friend the Member for Bath. and which you yourself strongly reprobated. I did nut hear what the Hon. Member said before he uttered the objection able expression to which I refer; but. I did hear him make use of the phrase " disgusting speeeli, as applied to the addresS of my Hon Friend.—(Hear, hear.) , ' Every Hon. Member near use can, I believe, say that he also heard it, and will sup port me, I am sure, in the assertion, that the conduct of the lion. Member, in leaving his scat and coming to the floor of the House, and in fact behaving himself in a manner in which I have never yet seen any Hon. Member behave in this House calls for some apology.—( Cheers. ) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—The occurrence which has taken place place stands thus : an ob servation has been made by the Hon. Member. for Wigan, and it is to him that I wish particularly to address myself, in reply to the speech delivered by the Hon. Member for. Bath, which was such as to call down upon him, in my mind justly, (and. I believe in the opinion of the majority justly also) your censure, Sir, and your statement that his observations was un parliarr.entary and unbecoming.—( Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly, then, the only course left you, is to bring it ttndor the consi deration of the Speaker; that is, if you be driven to such an alternative.—( Hear, hoar, hoar.) But Ido hope that the ex eitement into which the lion. Member may have been betrayed by the previous course of the debate, will induce him to apolo gise to the Committee for any expressions which he might have used, and for the inadvertent and irregular proceedings into which he may have been led.—( Hear, hear.) Our course is a clear one ; but I appeal to the Hon. Member whether he will hopose on the House the necessity of adopting it. Mr. KEARSLE Y said—lf the expression which I used is not agreeable to the taste of the Committee, I beg leave to .withdraw it.—( Hear, hear, from all sides.) But, I presume, Sir,. I have a right to say, that I heard-that speech with dis gust. —Loud cries of " Oh, oh.") The CHAIRMAN—ReaIIy I must say that the repeti tion of these terms is a further trespass on • the decorum which should be observed in the proceedings of this House. Mr. KE A IZSL EY—Sir, all I can say is, that as I can't swim in the same water with the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, they may construe the expression as they please.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and some faint cries of " Hear, hear.") Aft,..r a pause,. Lori E BRINGTCN rose and said—The apology which the Hon. Member has given is not one such as I conceive is due to the House, after the manner in which the decorum of its proceedings has been infringed upon.—( Cheers.) I must, therefore, Sir, unless the Hon. Gentleman thinks proper to make a more satisfactory apology to the Committee, beg leave to move that you report progress, and report this matter to the Speaker.—( Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL—As the Noble Lord the Member for North Devonshire has moved that the Chairman report progress, and that the expressions used by the Hon. Member be reported to the House, I wish to state what was the man ner in which I conceive the Hon. Member received the opi nion expressed by the Chairman. I understood him to . have said that he withdrew entirely the expression complained of. —( Hear, hear.) I must say, however, likewise that I don't think it was mentioned by the Chairman that the conduct of the Hon. Member, after what he said to the Hon. Member for North Wiltshire, was disrespectful to the House. But the Hon. Member so immediately withdrew the expression which has ben complained of, that I should suppose he will not hesitate to express his regret if his conduct should be consi dered disrespectful to the House. • Mr. KE A RSLE Y—l am extremely sorry if I have done anything unpleasant to the Committee—( Hear, from all sides.) —and I beg leave to withdraw the expression which I made. —( Hear, hear.) But then, when the Hon. Member for North Wiltshire cries out at my mode of walking over the floor— ( Th. ,fsra,lnd-er of the sentence wets boat in the. laughter, erica of " order," and confusion which here took place.) Sir A: L. HAY attempted to address the Committee, but nut a single expression which he addressed to the House could be heard by the reporters. - Mr. EA RSLE Y afrain rose and s a id—l b eg t o assure t h e House again, that I had r ' not the least possible intention of giving offence by my conduct on this occasion, —..(Loud cries of " Hcar," from all sides.) Mr. WALTER certainly thought that a better selection might be made •of the taxes which called for remission than those which his Majesty's Ministers had chosen. If he had any doubt upon this point it would have been removed by the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who did not defend his reduction of the Stamp Duty on Newspapers on the ground of expediency, but ad mitted that one, at least, of the reasons which induced him to repeal the tax was his inability t o co ll ect i t. With regard to the size of papers which the Right Hon, Gentleman fixed for the future, he thought such a proposal an unjust interference e.ith the rights of those who had vested their capital in this description of property on -the understanding that they should be allowed to exercise their ingenuity as to the best means by which it might be made to yield the best return. The Committee then divided, when the numbers were— Ayes Noes Majority — —33 The several resolutions were then agreed to, and the Holm) resumed. EXCISE LICENSES (IRELAND.) . On the motion of Lord moan:TN, the Excise Licenses Ireland) Bill was road a third time. Mr. SHAW moved an additional clause, by way of rider the Bill, to the effect that grocers should be prohibited from selling spirits by retail on their premises, but should be allowed to sell more than two quarts of spirits at the time for consumption outside their premises. The clause was agreed to. Mr. SIIA NV moved another clause, to the effect of spirits by retailers on th e S a bb at h, and 0" that all sal e 'last and,thanks giving days, should be prohibited. Ile rat it his duty to press the clause, notwithstariding tho arguluent which had taken place in the Committee on a lorm x - i . ne „ s i„ . Lord MORPETH oppcisiod the clause. He felt bound to adhere to the agreemillit Committee. It was out of the power of the Iloilao to prevent the sale of spirits on the Sub. bath, awl, therefore, it had only to make a virtue of necessity. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the motion Against it t -----61 The Bill was then passed. Sir R. PEEL wished to know of the Noble Lord opposite what Impiiness was likely to come on to-morrow (this day.) Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to - say that after the motion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex on county rates should be disposed of, the Registration of Voters ( Ireland) Bill woull be brought on, if Hon. Members who had notices on the paper consented to forego their motions. Sir R. PEEL suggested that, to make everything sure, it would be better that those Hon. Members who meant to with draw their notices of motion should state the fact to the House. PETTY SESSIONS (IRELAND.) Tho Petty Sessions (Ireland) Bill was read a third time and passed. IRISH TITHES. • Sir R. PEEL said that as the Bill for the settlement of tithes in Ireland stood, along with other orders, on the paper for Friday next, it was very ta.portant to the country that the Noble Lord opposite should state what his Majesty's Govern ment meant to do in regard to bringing it on that evening. Lord J. RUSSELL said that on next Friday the English ,Tithe Bill wou ld certainly be brought forward; but he could lic't undertake to say that the Irish Tithes Bill would be brought forward on the same day. On the succeeding Friday, how ever, it should be brought forward. Sir R. PEEL wished to know whether the Noble Lord meant Friday, the 3d July ? It had hero fixed for last Friday, was then postponed to next Friday, and now was about to be deferred a week longer. Lord J. RUSSELL answered in the affirmative. PUBLIC CARRIAGES (METROPOLIS.) 'Oa the motion of Mr. Alderman WOOD, the House re solved itself into Committee on the Public Carriages (Metro polis) Bill, which went through Committee, and the Chair man reported progress. The C I -lapels of Ease (Ireland) Bill passed through Com mittee, and was reported to the House. . The Highway Woes Hill was read a third time. It° l Zo ADVOCATE proposed the second reading, pro fbnivt, of the Burghs of Barony (Scotland Bill) ; but, Oa the suggestion of Sir G. CLERK, it was postponed till Friday, Mr. F, MAULF, got leave to bring in a Bill to place the horse patrol (at present und,er tho management of the chief magi,tratc of Buw-street) under tho management of the Com missioners of the Metropolitan Police. The other Orders - of the Day 'twee lien disposed of, and, Od the motion of Mr. - BROTH E IZTON, the House ad jo.irued at a Quarter past Twelve, HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 20, The House was occupied in hearing witnesses upon the Stafford Borough Disfranchisement Bill, from three to five oVOck. MANCHESTER AND LEEDS RAILWAY. On the motion of Lord KENYON, the Manchester and Leeds Railway Bill was read a third time, aid lased. The Earl of RODEN presented a petition from certain Protestant Dissenters, praying for the abolition of Church rates. LOid STU ADB ROK E presented a petition from a paro. alai union, complaining o f the unequal manner in which the rates were levied, MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. A message from the Common;l3toughtll;th;Nlerthyr Tidvil Railway and the Hull and Selby Railway Bills with their Lordship's amendments agreed to I the London and Dove,..Railway, and several other Bills. IRISH CORPORATION BILL. The Duke of NVF, LUNG TON said that as heuncltirstood the Irish Corporation Bill, with amendment!, would not be printed till Wednesday, probably the Noble Lord at the head of Ids Majesty's Government would think Friday too esrly- a day for the discussion upon the measure. Lurd M E LBO URNE certainly thought that if the Bill and the ameadments would not be printed till Wednesday, it would be more convenient to put off the discussion tiij :11unoli.-- was agreed to. The Earl of WINCHIL SE A Canterbury, in favuur oc , Mundy,' Bill. i j ; whic . presented a petition from the Lords' amendme..ts to the Irish JEWISH EMANCIPATION. 'rhe Duke of CLEVELAND presented a petition from the borough of Sunderland, praying for the emancipation of the Jea•s. UNIVERSITY OF EDINBURGH. The Earl of ABERDEEN presented a petition from the Lord Provost, Burgesses, and Town-Council of Edinburgh, against the Bill for the regulation of the Scotch Universities. The Earl of ROSE BER Y thought the petitioners could not have attended to the provisions of the Bill, otherwise they would have seen that none of its provisions would deprive them of their rights of patronage, which, as he believed, they had exercised with great advantage and benefit towards the educa tion of the public. POST-OFFICE. The Duke cf RICHMOND brought forward this que,tion now because he felt that if he delayed it until the measure for the new regulation of the Post-office came before their Lord ships, and then moved that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, he should lay himself open to the imputation of wishin t to get rid of the measure by a side-wind. He now gave his Majesty's Ministers the power, before they proceeded with a measure which he was persuaded would be most preju dicial to the best interests of the country, of moving that it be referred to a Select Committee. If they would do so, and if before that Select Committee they could prove to him - that it would not be attended with danger to the manufacturing, commercial, and agricultural interests of the country, he would withdraw his opposition. Ever since he first became ac quainted with the details of the Post-office he had always held the opinion that the idea of abolishing the office of Post master-general, and appointing Commissioners in his stead, was wild and visionary. It was due to the public that they should have some poison at the bead of that department who responsible for the discharge of the functions int, usted to him. What said the Commissioners on thi . s point? What reasons did they assign for the change ? Why they set out by saying, « We have had under our consideration the general ma nagement of the Post-office, and we . feel convinced that it would be impossible for us to propose any substantive alteration in the number of clerks, the present mode of conducting the business, or any of the complicated machinery of the depart ment, without in fact placing ourselves in the situation of the Postmaster-General. The Commissioners, in fact, acknow ledged that they were ignorant of the whole details of the es tablishment, and because thee were so, they recommended the destruction of the present, and the substitution of another mode of management. One of their grounds for recommending the abolition of the office of .Postmaster-General was, that they ge nerally devolved on the secretary. Well, but whose fault was that? When the Government appointed a Postmaster-General, let them take a pledge from him that he would discharge the duties of his office in person, and if he did not, let them do their duty and recommend his Majesty to discharge a person who disgraced the office he held. They really were justified in demanding some evidence on this point. There were 60 pages of evidence -certainly, but of those 60. 40 had been taken prior to the year 1827, and the whole department was remodelled in I 830.—( Hear, hear.) In addition to which there was throughout the whole this singular , inadvertency..-no one witness was asked his opinion of the proposed change, or even whether he thought any change necessary ; If t h e Commissioners could not inquire into the d'.:tails of the office without putting themselves in the situation of the Postmaster-General, why at least COIL ( ' they not have given the house the Postmaster general.'s e v id ence ?—( Hear, hear ) There was not a word from ,t;im ; there was no knowing from the Report whether he concurred in the propriety of the pro posed changed or not, He submitted that the House had a right to call for ti tl e evidence of the Postmaster-general be fore they proceeded farther. The Commissioners recorn= mended board of two perpetual Commissioners, and one re spoltaih/o chief in- Parliament. They then said that all letters of great importance were to be signed by the whole three. lie (the Duke of Richmond) did not object to the three Commis sioners being forced to sign every letter, but at the same time he thought it would be just as satisfactory to the public to have the signature of the Postmaster General. The Commissioners did not say in what respect the appointment of the Commis sioners would benefit the department, but lie could tell his Noble Friend in one moment how to make the department The-sorer was this. It oug h t nu t to be considered so - much in the light of a revenue board, but the Postmaster- General out to be allowed to spend more money in increasing the advautages derivable from it. —( Hear, hear.) In the evi dence lie had given before the Commissioners, he had told them that if the rates of postage were reduced, he had no doubt the revenue of the Post-office would be increased. There were many other points in which the Postmaster-general might make a sacrifice with the greatest advantage to the public. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, however, would not allow bins tQ do so, because he wanted the money. Was there any reason to suppose that he would be a whit more good-natured to the three Commissioners, than to the Pisstmester-General ?—( Hear, hear.) Supposing the propOsed Board were constituted, the chief would have to go out of office with every administration. The Postmaster- General at least had the power of ordering things to be done, even supposing he delegated his authority to rho secretary, which he (the Duke of Richmond) denied, while this new chief would be under the complete controul oF the two per petual Commissioners, from whom he might elways disagree. They had no authority for this change. The Finance Com mittee of 1827 had merely said it was questionable whether some such Board might not be advantageously constituted, and the Finance Committee of 1817 was decidedly opposed to it. He agreed with them that it would be dangerous to re model this office without inquiry ; lie contended that there, was sin ground whatever to justify them in effecting a of this importance. When he .reminded their Le' a great machPost-office afF'-'etede every interest, machine like the ships that manufacturing, agric u lt ura l , an d comme:i- cial, and was inti mately connected with the comfo.te, ;ne feelings, and the well being or every man in the cotreemety, be need them to proc ee d w i t h not recommend caution and deliberation. He gave his Noble regulation of ' nds notice, that when the B now ill for the move tie it :ne Post office reached that House, he should eat be referred to a Select Committee, wholly dissa as he was with the evidence on which it was founded. Lord D UNCANNON should most certainly oppose any such motion, even if he stood alone in doing so. Three Com missions on the subject had been already appointed, and he could not help thinking that referring it so a Select Com mittee now, would only be in effect postponing any measure for the re-construction of the Post office for any indefinite period. After taking the evidence of the Secretary, the Com missioners had come to the conclusion that if they had entered further into the details of-the Post-office, they would have neg lected objects of the utmost importance, such as the mail coach contracts, the steam-packet establishment, the communi cation by letter with other countries, and other points which they had now under their consideration. For himself he must say that the opinion he entertained on this subject in July last was strengthened in a tenfold degree by the evidence which the Commissioners had appended to their last report. The evidence given by the Secretary himself, proved that he was the only person who had discharged the functions of the Postmaster-General up to to the Noble Duke's time. He stated that he always exercised his judgment as to the business which he should lay before the Postmaster-General, and that during his absence he was the responsible party. His Noble Friend had said that the chief would change with every Administration, and would be outvoted by the other Commis - - missioners. He (Lord Duncannon) could only say, that this was not the case in other boards, similarly constituted, of which he was a member. The examination before the Com missioners had been carried on with the most anxious wish to obtain every information on the subject. Their Lordships would perceive by the statement contained in the 6th report, that every packet on the Holyhead station had been on fire in the course of the last year_some more than once, and that there were no means for extinguishing the fire. On the whole, he felt that their Lordships would consider it to be 'most un wise to postpone any legislative measure on this subject by the intervention of a Committee of inquiry. The Duke of RICHMOND wished to ask his Noble Friend whether he did not know that at this moment the packets were transferred to the Admiralty ?—(" No," from Lord Dun cannon.) Did not his Noble Friend know that it might be done without a Bill ; that it required only an order of the . Treasury to make the transfer; and he (the Duke of Rich mond) should not be surprised if the transfer had already been made. It was objected that this country had lost 4,000/. a year -by the packets sailing too early for the passengers. He remembered telling his Noble Friend, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, that if he agreed to the treaty with France, there would ho a loss of 4,000/. a-year ; but his answer was, that ho (the Duke of Richmond) ought to lOok to the great advantage which would accrue to the commerce of this country by the merchants obtaining their letters at a much earlier period; and therefore the Government ought not to compete with private packets in conveying passengers- his Noble Friend had spoken of the great loss sus tained by this change ; b u t h e ought, on the other hand, to take into account the gain by accelerating our commercial intercourse. But what did hi s N o bl e Friend mean by 105 0 It appeared by the App en di x A ., N o. 97, that the tota l gain in one year previous to the alteration was 31.5/. i . and that the the total loss du r i ng the first three after the treaty is. was 10..2 being an averae.e less of about 45,0001, a year. Now suppose they had taken'the packets by contract, what would have been the los s ? D ur i ng th e three years of his experience of the. change of system, the loss had been for the fist year 18,9591. ; the next year, 21,612/. ; and the third year, I 7,000 b, making an average low; of 19,043/. a year. But: could his Noble • Friend expect that his letters could be carried for nothing ? \Vitt' respect to the charge of peculation at Holyhead, the Postmaster-General or the Admiralty ought to institute an in quiry who were the guilty parties, and when discovered, they ought :E ht to be punished. When he was in oce he had in. tended to have gone to Holyhead and made, an inspectoti there; but the reason he deferred doing so was, that it wits every day expected the Government would conic to home decision with respect to the transferentc of the psvhcl% It. the Admiralt y , Tito Commkslottera in thOr reptlt ?We, that tic? Lords of the Admiralty ought to regultte the teAlariNi ef 94 offices in the Pest-office steam-paeket Strtiet, It was also his opinion that they ought td do sch At present thu 'pay a those officers was tuft oti it fotttitts tkattly such ah th'2ir Lord. !chips would'approk. e , The earttithis had 1451. 4 !;, , ar ordinary pay; but then they were allowed freight, and. what profit they great bemiit which wool(' he derived frQ ra could make by entertaining the passengers, He did not think it was a g sod system to make officers of the navy keepe. s of packets under tl.. c Admiralty, he by callinii IV atten plitoutteiinsg; t ' h in e d il ° e ri s e t.oltiee ex pected would be a change in this )- spect, tion oldie Afimiraity Viscount DUNI: , further just !vs _ to ts. e matter. - ' -i.NNON repeated his I.)iniort, that no „Airy was necessary as to the ( - large of peculation. ...1e person who had made the inquiry had taken the best means be could to ascertain the fact, not only - with respect to the charge of peculation in coals; but also Witit respect to iron and t• oil. This person was contradicted by the resident at Holyhead, but in every case he made good his charge. The Marquis of WESTMEATH thought that a ease of misconduct and peculation bad been made out, with regard to the Holyhead station alone, - sufficient to make the public anxious to have at least. as much efficiency displayed in, that department, as was the case wh en t h e N o bl e Duke (Rich mond) was the Postmaster-General. He could corroborate the statement of the Noble Viscount as to the facts arising out of the evidence. He wished to ask the Noble Earl opposite, whether the appointment of Captain llcvis was not at the in stance of the Lords of the Treasury ? After a few words from the Earl of miyro, which were rot audible in the Gallery, The-Elul of LICHFIELD appointed Captain Bevis front the Milford station to Holyhead, previous to any recommen datioh from the Treasury. He did so, because the Post office would otherwise hive been without an agent at the latter station. On receiving the recymmendation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, be (Lord Lichfield) informed him (the Right Hon. Gentleman) otthe appointment he had made, at the same time expressing his entire conviction of Captain Bzvis's perfect competency to fill the situation. The experi ence he had since had of the conduct of Captain Bevis at Holyhead fully satisfied him. that he was perfectly right in making that appointment. Lord A S fIeURTON had long had a strong impression on his mind that some alteration in the system of the Post-office department was absolutely necessary. He believed that the Noble Duke (Richmond) was almost the tirst Postmaster_ General who could be said to have looked into the details of that department. If any measure should be brought forward for altering the organization of the system, he should certainly give it his Support. The great and leading error in tho Post office establishment of this country was, that it was mad e a source of revenue to the State. This was the only country in Europe where impediments were thrown in the way of commercial intercommunication by financial exactions. He was perfectly well aware that. during the war the Mi nister required every means by which to obtain a revenue, and that since the war, the demands 4 :nr a reduction of taxes of various descriptions had been w pressing, that it was not to be expected the ChaneePor of the Exchequer would vo luntarily relinquish a tax against which no serious and earnest complaint had beet& raised. But what surprised him was that. in a commercial Country like this, and in a country too where the diffusion Of knowledge was so strongly advocated, such a serious Check upon the intercourse between this country and foreign nations should have been suffered so long to exist. It I.as a perfect anomaly, that on an expenditure of not niore tban.soo,ooo/. a year, a tax should be raised to the amount of upwards of a million and a Lalf. • What would be thought of a tax upon verbal communications, or commercial transactions in the same town? And yet in principle, a tax upon the corre spondence between commercial 'men in different parts of the world, beyond the necessary revenue to defray the expense of conveyance, was precisely the same thing. Lord WALLACE concurred most cordially in the princi ple of the measure intended to be brought forward by the Noble Viscount (Duncannon). He anticipated great advan t in - es from the substitution of a Board of Commissioners for a sPiag)o Postmaster-General. He did not see any reason for the appointment of a Corrimittee to make further inquiry on this subject. They had the Reports of several Commissions, composed of persons connected with all parties ; and every ono coming to the same conclusion as to the desirableness of substituting a Board of Commissioners for the present sys tem. For, notwithstanding what the Noble Duke had said upon the subject of the Finance Committee of 1817, he (Lord Wallce) still must claim the authority of that Report in fa vour of the view which he took of the subject. It was true that Committee did not recommend the appointment of a Board of Commissioners, to be constituted like the existing Revenue Boards ; they were of opinion that it would not be advisable permanently to leave the office of Postmaster-Gene ral in the possession of a single individual. If there ever was a question which it did not seem necessary that that there should be any further inquiry, it a - as the very one which their Lordships were then discussing& The Duke of RICHMOND, in his reply, said that it cer tainly appeared by the evidence that there had been great ne gligence and carelessness on the part of the agents at the i)over and Holyhead stations, and that if lie had been Post master-General, he should have removed those parties. But that was not a sufficient ground for altering the present system. It was quite clear that the packets were to be transferred to the Admiralty, therefore all the arguments deduced from the sixth report in favour of the intended measure must go for no thing. In conclusion, he thought it but fair to give his Noble Friend notice that when the Bill he was about to introduce should enme before their Lordships, he (the Duke of Rich mond) should move, as an amendment, that the fifth report should he referred to a Select Committee, and he should cer tainly take the sense of the House upon it. After a few words from Lord WALLACE and Viscount DUN.. CANNON, the conversation terminated. On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND, the Marquis of Salisbury, the Marquis of Londonderry, the Eari of Dart mouth, and the Earl of Oxford were added to the Loco motive Engine Committee. The Bills on the table were then forwarded a stage.— Adjourned. Lord John 'Russell . ar:quainted Mr. Hoy that ho c.)uld not fix a day for the Committee on the La ws o f B ene fi t Societies. On Th'lrsday next, the 23d inst., M r . H . h as given notice of ;:t4 motion; Societies would th ere f ore d o well to present S uch petitions as arc prepared. ALE DOMINATION.—What a stimulus to the curiosity of the ladies ! To what happy region of society can such a title bear reference ; and where are we '.o look for the originals of this new gallery of portraits, furnished by the pi -quota/pen of the Authoress of " Mothers and Daughters?" Thereby - , we are told, hangs a tale—a tale in three volumes— well deserving the interest its mere announcement has excited in the literary and fashionable world. We are glad to hear that the O'Connel Subscription ig going on most favourably in all parts of the country. We hive received at our office 251. 4s. —Carlisle Journal. CIRCULATION OF COUNTRY NEWSPAPERS. — A " Return of the Number of Stamps issued in each month by the Stamp Office, for all the Provincial Papers in Great Britain, froni. the 30th June, 1835, to the 30th Apri', 1836, prepared pursuant to an order of the Honourable the House of Commons, dated 29th April, 1836," has been printed. From this return it appears, that the total number of stamps issued in the last ten months for the Leeds Mercury is 255,000 ; that the total number for the next highest among the provincial papers is 220,000 ; for the next. 152,000 : for the next, 127,000 ; and for the next, 109,000. It appears, therefore, that the number of stamps used for the Leeds Mer cury has exceeded by thirty-five thousand the number used for any other provincial journal in the kingdom, and consequently that that paper continues to enjoy the support of by far the most extensive body of subscribers of any weekly paper out of London. The number of stamps consumed within ten months (or 44 weeks) being . 255,000, the average sale must have been 5,795 'copies Weekly ; but as there have been a few weeks when the sale was quite unusual, for instance, during the Assizes, the average ordinary circulation must be taken somewhat lower. The sale of the Leeds Mercury in the last month of the above return, namoly, April, considerably exceeded that in January, as is shown by the following statement : STAMPS CONSUMED FOR THE LEEDS MERCURY. On January2d, 1836 5,550 ! On April 2d, 1836 9th ' ...... 5,390 I 9th, 16th, 23d, 30th, 5,353 5,430 23d, 30th, 5,780 5,750 In five weeks Weekly average in Jan. 5,434 Weekly average in April, 5,758 In the last month (May) the weekly average sale of the Mercury was 5,752. During the present year, the circulation of the Leeds Mercury has been higher than at anv former period. It is more than five times the average circulation of country news papers ; and, being diffused over one of the wealthiest and. most populous districts in the Country, (distinguished at once by manufactures, commerce, and agriculture), as well as extended to the news-rooms of most of the great town s i n the United Kingdom, that Paper affords the best advertising medium provincial press. the DE ATIL—As Mr. Charles Pre s t on , SUDDEN amon g '3Oll of Mr. Preston, Penrith, was on his road from Richmoa c l, i n cas Surrey, to Penrith , on the 7th in stant , he suddenly expired in the omnibus uhich runs betwe en this place and New lie was about leaving Darlington to Penrith. Dr. B t' e f B a rnard Castle was with the deceased w h en he died. Leeds Leeds Mercury. On Sunday morning, during Divine Service, sotrae sign, of o n open o, n t b e h e e a a n l f d - h f o o use r ci n , .. ockt bowels of two of the poor animals, tortured otheny. that, when the dairyman came to l oo k at them asfoteirniPcAhmaapnellY service was over, he found them on the ground gas.Ong in the last agonies. It was found requisite to put instil:loy an end to their misery.— Wilts Herald. AMERICAN ATROCITIES. ---At St. Louis, on the 28th ult., a negro, in assisting another man of colour to escape from a sheriff's Aker, killed ate officer, and afterwards stabbed another person who attacked him. lie was lodged in gaol, though not till his arm was broken by a brickbat. A mob then collected, who threatened to burn the gaol unless he were given up to them. Resistance was useless; they seized him, chained him to a tree, and burned him tklivet—Americas P a p erg I wy,