The Sun. — London, England, 1803-04-05 00:00:00

. HOUSE OF PEERS, IMPERIAL pABLIANIENT, MONDAY, APRIL 4. Ma. Eazeoss was finally heard this day respeaing the claim of the Rev. Mr, Ail Y . l) l; X S i to, the Barony of Cu A woos. The consideration of, the case was adjourned till to-morrow. • Several Private Bills were brought up . front the COmmons lay, different Gentlemen, and read a first time. The Order of the Day; being read for their Lord.. ships going into it COnimittee on the Militia Officers'. pill, .and the question being put, Earl ioxiNEr rose and expressed his seoti ' Merits upon the- subjed of - the Militia at some lengths Headverted to the measures lately- adopted with'respeCt to the Militia, particularly those which took place last year. Of the latter he expressed his disapprobation,, considerieg . them, at best, but as unnecessary, in mariy instances injurious, and gene- rally. disgusting to the constitutional Officers of the old Militia, The addition of the three Captaini to each. Corps, clearly. increased the difficulty ex. perienced by the. Lord Lieutenants in meeting with qualified Officers.. The measures of Ministers with respect to the` Militia, were such as must disgust the Commanders of . Militia Regiinents, and induce them io retire. 'With reaped to himself, he thought the Militia reduced to that situation; that,' under all Circinnstancp; it's' COiltiiillfiDEC was' tin longer desirable.' If any Lord shoold coneitelskitfi him, Le coUld eltnosc himielf move • for the repeal of the Oilitia LawS, when the Army could gtiOn is before the. establishment of the Militia. , Marquis TOWNSI-IEIVD spoke shortly ,in an swer to what fell from the Noble 'Earl. He dif. feted entirely' from him with resped to the efFed of . the measures - adopted by GoVerninent, with resped to the Militia, deeming them neither degrading' nor in. jurioes. ' He .deprecated all ideas of suppressing the IVEitiO, and seemed surprised .at hearing such art jdea 'started, particularly at a period ':when the power of France was at such an alarming, height. The Militia he considered as necessary for the home defence, and with aview. to render the troops of the line the more completely disposable, inde 'pendeet of offensive operations, a large disposable force would always be necessary, partioularly for the ; defence of our colonial possessions. The house then resolved into a Committee, Lord W.kostNotsissa in the Chair. When the Clause objected to, on a former disco's slot), by certain 'Peers, namely, that authorising the service, *and settling the rank of Officers unqualified :by the Old Militia Laws, was read, Some explanatory conversation took place in the first instance, between Lords RADNOR,. HOBARi i and his Royal Highness the Duke ofCUMBERLAND. The Earl ofCAßNAßY.ONexpressed his hostili. ty to the'Clause at some length. He asserted that did the Committee agree to the Clause a great sacrifice would be made wicket': any reasons being assigned, and in fad on the bare requisition of the Minister. He recapitulated several.of his former obiervations 'iespeding the original establishment of the Militia as a Constitutional. defensive force, and alluded to certain points of the late conduct of Ministers, which he said were in direct contradittion to their declarations only ten months ago. He would pre, fer the suppression of the Militia to its remainingin ;IC LW/4.n r 21ter'ed an d f 1, 11 ,,,,i.fi ,r , rt.. I-In 4. 4 .4.11, : 1r e d pit . the constitutional et, ils of removing the necessity of qualifications, which hethought was done to bring the Militia more intu the power of the Minister. He deprecated the pradice 'of sending the Militia out Of the Country, and which was follciived tip, he observed, ss ::11 the more injuriours measure of ren. tiering it 'in fad a mere drill for the Regiments of - the Lo;e. ' Tb: - DtikE sf CUMBERLAND observed, he ought to' apologize to their Lordships for •thui ob. trading himself, (two or three Peers hiving risen at the same time, but immediately gave way to His .Yoyelllighness); when there were' so many other Peers better - qualified than he was, to give any ollinion upon the subject s but, .he fissured the Com. • ..mittee, he should not detain them *many minutes. With roped to 'the Clause before theM, and which was so strongly objeCted - tos he observed, the tired pf 'it was merely- to enable the Lord Lieutenants sto officer the Militia Corp' , in cases of vacancy, iv . Mkiititry Meo, The objections, however,ito this. tegulAns were made in , the way of art apParent' iismitatiOn th:it soh would beot breach of .the Con •stitutioo, yid he view. the :.operation of- ' the ciao's,: in that light, he _assured their Lordship, he would be the last in that'fione to, support it. Put he considered the measure very differently. In the first instance, the Lard Lieutenants were re. slisised.to.fill.a,, w ith qualified Officers according to . the old regulations; nay inure, tile provisions of the Bill before the Committee, went to strengthen the established principle of the' old Militia, inas otech as it enabled the Lord Lieutenants to loOk fur qualified Officers - in other counties, than those to which their cogin halonged, which they ,were POI previously authorised to do. This he consider.. ed lys A consritutionAl advantage, as 'it could not be denied bet that ''it Gentleman of landed property in YorkAire, and one of landed property in. Wilt. shire, bad the same general interest in defending the colour". He entertained no doubts of quali. lied officers coming forward in its defence ; and must deprecate every idea of disbanding the Militia, that establi , ,hed constitutional force. The pro. posed - rnea'sure lie regarded as one didattd by. stecessity, for it was obvious the Militia could not bit brought into aCtion f or marched without Officers. ' Po entertained the highest possible resped for tlie Militia, yet . he must. think the introduaion ' of Military men would 'be of service. .Sonie stress ivas . laid by a l'joble Lord on the circumstance of Mili. iia s Men being sent abroad--his way of Sitting the case r. however, was not' very corrctithe Army was in want of men' at the time, fur al,very parti.: ;Oar arid important occasion, on which ,a certain ;lumber of Tylilitia.unen were . authorized by Par- ii itt n6it to enter into the Regiments of the Line, did: , hey. cllooe it , as volenteers.. As the Militia Cosps i conics no(coristitutionally be sFat,out of the Country , iiss, with resps4 to Ireland, he mint consider it,! es i Sesidly soose ilia Unioo, as identified with thisi ifit.i i,. foriaing but ore ootoitry.—lle hoped the_ *Miliii4 of both parts of the United Kingdom would; 1 6 4 recipro;:;.! serv ice, . le ihonld sr O tte Nii full support to thc Bill, - I ' „Earl ROMNEY, In, reply to part of iyhat had fallen from. the Royal Duke, expressed his re. )gret at. feeling himself obliged to differ even on the slightest point from his Royal Highness , ; but, he was of opipion, that Ireland was very differently circumstanced from-Great Britain, with respea to its Militia. With respea to the idea of abrogating • the Militia Force, he certainly could not entertain it, as applying to the present period, or in the present circumstancesufthe Country, but•as a mea sure under the consideration he had alluded to, as desirable a Intu,re period. • Lord REDESDALE, in a chain of argumenta. tive olnervations, defended the condo& of Govern meht, with resped to the Militia, and pointed out to the Committee the essential difference between the Constitution of' the Militia Force a' perma nent Peace Establishment, and.es formed•for purposes of War. The Earl of WESTMORLAND followed on the Sane ground, and defended the Militia as constituted at i present, in which form it rendered the most ,essential andrilorious services 40 this country. , He observed one great advantage derivable from the, Militia was, that it - superseded the necessity of having recourse to a Foreign Service for defensive purposes. The principle upon which the Clause ob. jeaed to, proceeded, was by no means new in the Militia System ; there were Ads of Parliament Which gaive a suspending Power with respea to a • proof of qualification. He thought it better, As now . propiied, to Vest the Lord Lieutenants with, a di. rea.power in case of necessityi and he could :not help obtetving, that the ideas - suggested by. Nible Lords.opt*osite e was rather an odd •way of .shewing their friendship for the Militia. - The' Eail of LIMERICK could not refrain from . making a very few 'observations on the present () maim He observed,. that the circumstance of. the English Militia serving in Ireland, was noticed by certain Noble Lords in such a way, as, if those troops were Conipelled by Government to go thither againt their inclinations ; that, however, was.very far from being . the case : the Militia corps in this Country felt for the situation.of their loyal bre thren in that Country, at.d with a zeal and alacrity which refleded• eternal honour:On them, and would .lastingly attach the loyal inhabitants of J-elaod ro this, volunteered their services to assist thera. Such a proceeding was not an infringement Of the Const Lion, and-Wicked indeed would• Minister s -have been, did they refuse such offers. With resped the Union, no man could possibly approve that wished forconsummation more than himself. But to tendrir it fully effectual, or better than a, parchment record, the two countries should assimilate in every thing. He even thought there should be a clause in the pre sent Bill for their service in Ireland, as it is already done with regard to Scotland. He knew not what 'difference there was bet Ween those countries, equally united to England, unless it was that ,the one required a voyage of about 6o;rniles to reach ii. Were the services of the Militia limited according to the ideas of the Noble Lords, to -their respeCtiie counties, it may be a good police institution, but 'could , never be an efficient military force. - The Earl of RADNOR, in reply to the last speaker, enforced some of his foyiney objeaions, and contended that the original compaet made with the Militia had been violated.. The DUKE of CUMBE RL D protested ag,ti ifs t the idea .that the Militia were drafted into the Re. giments of the Line ; the case was very different, the Ati only enabled them to turn ouc as Volun. teen. The Earl of CARNAR VON spoke at some length in explanation. The Earl of LIMERICK, in reply to an ob servation of the last Speaker, observed that the 011izers of the Militia in Ireland, with the excep. tion of. the Colonels, were not appointed by the Crown. Lard BOLTON approved of the present mea. sure, bet observed, he as one of those Officers mi. thorised to att by the Bill, should not feel hinisOf justified in accepting the oilers of unqualified . Of ers, except he should not be able to meet with OM_ cers qualified according to the former regulations; of which however his Lordship seemed to think there was no danger. The Marquis of S L 100 ',ittiKertink to the tor!. StitUtiOn of the Militia of,lreland, 'explained that the Ofgcers there were alvointesl- the same way as in this COuntry. He expatiated on the firm ar. tachnient of the Irish in general to Great Britain, and noticed that remarkable, expression of the nd. tional wish; at the famous Meeting of Dungannon, " Let us share the Liberties of. the British Isle 1" His Lordship expressed his heart-felt satisfadion at what had fallen from the. Royal • Duke, respeelinc the reciprocal services of the Militia, of Great Bri. tain and Ireland.. ,LordP ELMO! defended the measure with great ability, on the general grounds adopted by Noble Lords at his side of the House. . . ' After tiihicti,. sonic- furthe:r - diseussion. took place, chiefly between the Earls Of .RADNOR, CAtorAa. VON b and Lord HOBART, in which the stoned Peer expressed his hope, that . in general, the provision would be unnecessary, save in a few Coun_ ties, where it may be tbandindispeniahle. The Question was called for, when the Strangers wtre ordered to withdraw, preparatory to a divi. sion, which however did not take place. The remaining clauses of the bill were then agreed to by 'the Committee, and the House resuming, ordered the Report to be received to.tnorrow. Air. B.? 1 ,10, attended by several members, brought . the St. PAncras Workhouse 13ill from the .Conunons, - Which was forthwith read a first time. Mr. Hot/LsIoN, from the London Flour Company, pre sen tat certain Accounts directed to he laid annually before limnent. • .•... . • _ • • . . . troths of lleg ance and Fidelity being duly ad. .ministeictl to .Mr. Maurice De johns, the Bill for his Na. furaliza.tiOn was read a second time, and on:lcred to a Cont. mittee. " The House then, after disposing of some private business, adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONRAT, APRIL Ste F;CA NCIS Bußourr presented a Petition f rom th e Inhabitants of the Parish of St. Paperas, praying Ic.tee of the Itoutie to be heard by Counsel against the 'erect. 100 new Workhouse, and appoipting Guardians of ay... Poor vh the said Parish. The Question being put, that the • Petition should •lic on the Table till the third reading of the Bill, and that th,:.•. titioner: should their be h e ard by their COLUISeI agilig3 it, - Mr; SHERID AN observed, that- be thought the Inha. hi fain s should have time allowed them to consider the 'dif ferent Clauses of the Bill; in'order that Counsel might be able se-oppose the measure. - - Mr. BY NG said, that sufficient time had been given for the consideration at the Clauses which had been objected to; lie therefore should inaNie fur a third reading of the-Bill to day. - - Sir FRANCIS BURDETTsaid, he thought the indulgence cif the House ought. to be granted, to the Inhabitants of St. Pancras, in giVing them time to consider • the which, at present, they thought very injurious to them... His. Hon. Friend (Mr. 13 vNG) had not given any reason for his present desire to hurry the Bill through the House. Mr. HURST sail, he should oppose the third reading of the Bill, as it went to destroy the Franchise of the Inhabit. . tants.. The affairs of the Parish had been concluded for a great nuMber of years to the.satistadion of all parties, and there was no greater proof of the fair and honourable condu& of a Public Vestry, than the one he was about to mention. The Poor-rates of every Parish in -London had been raised considerably, but the Poor-rates of St. Pancras continued at two shalingt and three-pence in the pound. He considered every part of the Bill as injurious to the Parish, therefore he should give- his vote against it. - Mr. COURTENAY said, he should offer one or two in controvertible fads ; the first was, that the Bill, as it is now offdred to the House, gives a power . to a body of Gentlemen, called Guardians, to form themselves into a Seled Vestry, where the Inhabitants are shut from all inquiry they may wish to make, as to the affairs of the Parish, but which, in his mind, they ought to have a power to de.--Added to this extraordinary power, by this Bill, they arc permitted to remain in their arduous situation for life; therefore they may condud the affliirs of the Para as they please. Another privilege which the Bill allows them, is, to audit the Ac counts of the Parish : this, he said, would give them a power to make use of the Parish Money, without being ac. countable to the Inhabitants. These fads were, he was sure, strong enough for,the House to throw out the Bill. - Mr. ALEXANDER said a few words in support of the Bill. Mr. HILLIARD said,there were a great number of Bills of a similar nature in this Country. They had been considered in- he Committee by men of considerable talent, and from the best information that could be got on the subject, he thought the Bill would be serviceable to the Parish. The Parma of. Se. Pancras was eighteen miles in circumference, and'consisted Of 34,000 Inhabitants, and he could venture to say, that the major part of them were friends to the He was sure a better Bill was neyer formed for the main tenance of the Rights and Privileges of the inhabitants, than the one now before the House. Mr. S HERIDAN said, the only : question, at present, be fore the Hbuse, was, whether the Prayer of the Petition would be allowed by the House, and that the Inhabitants might have time to consider the Bill, and to furnish their Counsel with the übjedions they had to the proposed mea sure. He thought this wits a request the House ought-not m hesitate a moent to gran The last Bill was found to be full of inconsistent Clauses,. therefore, it would be wonder ful if the present Bill did not, contain many objectionable which a little tithe and consideration might render in effectual, from a fair . exposuredf,their injurious tendency.— An Hun. Gentleman' (Mr. Him a a ti) had said, that the Parish'consiSted of 34;00e Inhabitants, most of whom were friends .to the Bill ; but he was sure that no such body of persons would wish to disfranchise themselves and their neighbburs,'ortheir Vglits, which they lave enjoyed for many years. The lion. Gentleman had also observed, that there were many Bilk similar to the present ; but he would ven ture to say, there never was a similar Bill brought into that House :—Mr..SWER ID A\' then read'severil Clauses of the Bill, and made remarks on the injurious tendeOcy of them. He read one which was to this eili;d, " That if any of the Pour of. the Parish Work-house were tOund,guilts of an of fence, contrary to the Laws of their House, their diet and cloathing should, be reduced for a certain time." This he supposedwas Stripping and Starving. He made several judi cious remarks on different Clauses of the Bill, and conclud ed by saying,• that the inconsistent and contradictory part s of the Bill ought to be explained, therefore, he hoped, time world be alluwed the Petitioners to carry their intention into effect. . . Mr. 'FI LT.' RD. explained.' ,fr. BY NG said, he rose to state his reason for the sup phi lie, had given the present Bill was certainly true, that fourteen hundred persons had opposed the Bill, but he could take upon himself to state, that the major part of the Inhabitants had.given it their support • and it was very well known, that most of tho se p ersons Who opposed the mea sure,• had never . paid Scot and Lot in the Parish ; but the must wealthy Persons in this extensive Parish, had agreed to the Bill. 'lt had been stated, that this Bill went 'to rob the Inhabitants of their rights and ,privileges, but he could assure the HOuse, and the inhabitants of the Parish, that if , any per Son felt himsel t• aggrieved with the proceedings of the Guardians, he could apply to two Magistrates,who will have the' power, from the very letter of the Bill, to redress his grievances.' He thought the Bill would be of wearservice to the Parish, therefore he should give it his vote: Mr. S H RIDA N Saida few words. Mr. FOXsaid, it had been stated, that the majority of the Parish were for the Bill; but he, mould say, that the only majority for it, were the Sixty self..eleded Guardians. If, as it had been said, that the majority . are for the preina Bill, why ate they not perniitted to nominate persons for the Se. led Vestry ; for by the. Bill, as it is now (aired, they are prevented from that privilege. He, therefore, thought the Bill carried with it great oppression, and ought not to have the sandlot) of the House in its present form. Sir• WM: NILTENZY, Mr. HODHOUSII, Mr. BALDWIN, and several other Members, spoke on the question. The House then divided— For the Motion • • Against it • SS After which Mr. Su LAI o proposed an Amendment, the purport of which was to giye tlie Inhabitants a Share in the Nomination of Guardians—on which the 'House again divided— For the Amendment Against it On our re-admission into the Gallery we fOund Mr. BRAGGE speaking on the Case of James Trotter,'" which silbjeet we afterwards learnt was introduced' by Mr. TIERNEY. Mr.. BRAGGE thought it was• but just that the House should hear the Prisoner again at the Bar. Mr. SIM R 1 DAN observed, that the Prisoner Could not he heard again "at the Bar upon the pre. sent . Charge, because he had been heard already. He thought the two Resolutions 'of his Honourable Friend (Mr. TIERNEY) perfeCtly regular, and , that there was no occasion at present to go beyond them : (the substance was, as we afterwards colleEled) that James Trotter, now in custody Of the Serjeant at ,Arms, having been, duly summoned by the War. rant of the . SP EAKEi and the order of the Chair , man of the Committee, and having disobeyed such warrant and order, bad been guilty of a breach of the Privilege of the House. This Mr. TI HANKY had moved. The next with which he' propoSed to follow it up was, le that the said James'Trotter be committed to His Majesty's jail of Newgate." Mr. BRAGGE observed, that he had no wish upon this subjed, but that the• House should conform to the principles of Justice he had no concern with, any of the parties ; he hardly knew the name of the. Individual' who was the subject of this Motionl but he thought the House had rendered it necessary to hear the Prisoner again, from the course the House pursued when • he was before them. The House need not .have' taken that :course; for it had full power to aCt upon the report of the Committee, and to have committed the Prisoner immediately ; but the• House had not done so; but ordered another course to be pursued, and which, in his opinion, • varied the. course which the House _ought to pursue now, and now he thought to hear the Prisoner again, because, by ordering the - Minutes to be laid before. the House, they bad aggravated the Pri. loner's Case, and he bad not been heard in answer to that aggravation. • Mr. TIERNEY observed, that as to the course now proposed, he shouid be-ready to.assent to it on certain conditions, which were to pursue the subjeft further. He: had • no difiirnity in givin& way to every spggestion that plight afpear favourable to tile-individual now in,custody ; his great ohjed.was to get out the whole troth. It was now said, there were two charges against this man, and, that hi had been heard only upon one. of them. Tie knew but of one charge against the Prisoner , James Trotter, which was, that he had,disobeyed the Warrant of. the SPEAKER of that House, and an Order of, the 'Chairman of a Committee f that HouSe; that was the - charge against this person : it was., indeed, true that that charge was strengthened by the evidence which had been laid before the' House i n ' addition .to the-Report-of 'the COmmitiee, which st ated bins to be in contempt, The only question upon the evidence was, whether it furnished ground for a more harsh .or a more lenient punishment thanthe House. would have thought itself called upon toin flid, in case the whole• matter had rested upon the Report of. the Committee But the House, if it heard the Prisoner again, must, in justice . ,.hear.the Patty accusing him again ; and the Hong, if they . felt any inconvenience in this course, would bear in mind that they brought it upon thetnselves; for the course was for them to commit, the Prisoner to Newgate at once, upon the Report of the Commit tee, - by which he appeared to be in contempt.;. and the House would recoiled also, that as to the titian- Italie= felt by the Prisoner, it was also an in,COn venience which be had wilfully brought -upon iiiru- For his part, he felt that he was shoving a great deal of forbearance in not carrying this ter further, nor did he wish to press against this man anything harsh ; but if this matter was R ut-- sued; and any other person .was C.ocerviecl in this most unfair proceeding, they ought to be brought forward and properly punished. He thoug ht ,it, an interesting matter to thePublic;.that all the adherents of this man and his abettors, and perha the founders of the plan by which the purposes of defeated, should be punished. The Motion which be should regularly make after the present one WAS dis.. posed of, would be, that James Trotter be now sent to Newgate. If he should hereafter petition that hi may have . an opportunity'of being heard to expl ain, away any misconception he may say had been en tertained on his Case, be should wish the House to .hear the petition ; but if that shoUld be done, lie now gave distinct notice, that . he should lay in his claim to be heard on the. Other side.; He should i.ropose to examine Witnesses, and to bring home very serious charges, he believed against some other persons, some of high station. He had tea. son so- believe that this would •distindly appear if the matter was inquired into; and that was a mate ter which he bad much inki-desire to 'pursUe than the punishment of this individual. He now. only . should move that this per Vin . should be committed to Newgate, but if Trotter took his advice as friend, he would go to. Newgate and stay a while quiesly there, and stir no further in the matter, In point of Public Justice, more ought to be done in this business than he was now doing. He should now move, that James Trotter, having been duly summoned . with the SPEARER'S.Warrant and Chair. man's Order, &c. and disobeyed such Warrant and Order, has been guilty of a.Breach of the pig deg of this Hoose.: T . The question was put and carried ntmille roam , dicente. .„ . biter • • p.. Th e 4'PEAKER then suggested, that the, art of the vote, that of its being yrcr pr i ,tr roorgii. cent', ought not to be entered, lest it shook! itrOY a doubt upon a matter which was -clear, and Invie some effeft on future procedings ; by entering words nentine contradicente, it might seem as i these f the House thought a case might happen in which clis• obedience to the Warrant of the SPE4,Kpa. was -W C a Breach of Privilege, and so the authority of the House might be weakened in future, by endeavours log to mark this particular case—every disobedience to the Warrant of the SP EAKti R, or order of a Chair, man of a•Committee of that House, was a clear breach of Privilege, and therefore.there was no pro.. priety in marking one case more than another, in the event of such disobedience; the vote upon them al ways ought to pass nemine contradicente, but never to be so entered, lest it might bring a doubt where there ought to be none. The Houie immediately adopted this suggestil from the Chair; and the words nem. con. were left out. Mr. TIER,Nrir then moved, " That the said James' Trotter* far his said offence, committed to His Majesty's Gaol of iNlevvgate." Mr. 13RAGGE observed that he had heard nothing which had changed his opinion relative to the course which the House ought ultimately to take in this proceeding. He had 'said that 0 substance there were now two charges again' this person' instead of one : ist, that he had di s ' obeyed. the summons of that 'House ; 2diy, 'th"c he had wilfully, and, from corrupt motives, hee l ' guilty of a Breach of the'Privileges of that House; the latter was totally distinafrom the former ; t‘' one of which the man had been heard ; to the other he had not ; for the one therefore he ought to .funiabed.without further discussion. ; for the othc, r he ought to be heard before he was punished at a l l. • The' Hon..Gentletnani whose- Motion was now fore the House, had a right to say, that thus a bsent' ~:ing himself was a crime .of considerable magnitude, • and , that it was aggravate.' by what appeared.on the minutes of the Committee which had been laid befor e the House ; but then he* could not help thinking , that the man ought to be heard as to the matter 0 . , naavation : but the Hon. Gentleman said,, he hr bjeftion to the Prisoner's producing evidence In his defence ; now if he did not object to bis pro' ducing.evidence in his defence, how could he o h' jet to the man's.being heard in his defence ? Bu t n e said that if Trotter was. advised to make any further defence, the other side must have anvi? ortanitY °i offering evidence.—Now, this he could not sent to. He thought it impossible to .hear a n y more evidence upon' the subject. It was impos sible to hear any further evidence, even on 1 0 " halt of the Prisoner himself, because the HO O5O had already, by voting,. that the 'Prisoner had bee n guilty of a Breach of Privilege, decided, that h e ,must be punished, and the House could not hear ate evidence against that decision. 4Still, :as to t n a , quantum of the punishment, he thougiht that ,the Ma ought to he heard, -lot by witnesses ;. he . n ever r , had an idea of that, because they could no r be eyo, oath, and their testimony could not be recei,tl'; against that which was upon oath, and no w htl°'