The Sun. — London, England, 1845-06-03 00:00:00

pOI , rl 0 ' )fiat e of king n ce .ace Principles of the Protestant religion, and he would now submit the p roposition, that it was absolutely impossible to maintain the system as it was'_( Hear, hear.) In a paper laid upon th.eir Lordships' table three days ago, they had hren furnished lYuwith the state of the present institution for the education of the man Catholic pri es th ood of Ireland, as found in December fast.or the The i nstitution w as represented as altogether insufficient to purposes o f education. The buildings were described be in a state of ruin ; and the accommodation was such that 't was :impossibl e to accommodate with common d ecency t h e students who attend e d t h ere. The conveniences for study or domes t i c w ho were of the most imperfect character. The professors and others engaged in the duties of educating the science were inadequately rewarded. In fact, the professors of , s te nce, of literature and of theology were not paid higher S hea , "romon clerks. ' lt also was stated that to render it possible .o carryon the institution, even under these imperfect arrange du!'Meats, it was found necessary to send the students away ng the vacation. This step was absolutely necessary in Ze°seer to ensure anything like cleanliness, and to suit the i ng wants of the establishment. It was necessary to . maintain the institution for the uses of the Roman Catholics :tl'let.. .Ireland—for it would be admitted they must have ecelesi- F , , and if so it was evident that at present it was quite therefore for the purpose. Her Majesty's Government, 4efseitefore proposed that to an institution supported by the s _tr,lg of the great body of the people of Ireland, means f ootin g be afforded so as to establish it on the same stit Ing' and on the same principles as the other in- All bust of the country formed for similar purposes. rnest admit that the Roman Catholic ecclesiastics exercised great influence over the minds of the people, and if so, it was reasonable that their h I I endeavour to provide ori s s MI ( lit t s :, r r means for their eduction. Such a course was called vietorder to secure the peace and happiness of the country. ternhould endeavour togive the students at Maynooth those f or 4,lts which belon to g men who are to fill the stations of life i n s n 'oich they are int g ended. They ought to have instructions h ay uterature and science as well as in theology—they ought to rt!.ilietitillitaiteea,Ftpipeaeraitus d books which are necessary to afford n the various branches of . science, and other ala s* ~,,, n r the performance of their duties as cede aglissi,, ° !Y Lords, I am aware there is a prejudice existing %th in he institution and against those educated there. I have this i s , t° saY on this subject, except that an institution such as th e NI epresented to be in these papers could not h . aveans . wer . e t d the The s t i ;P ° se which the Irish people had in view in instituting . i th e h Ject of the measure which we propose is that of raising ceduar,acter of the institution and the character of those who t elty hai,il,,_t" tbere—that the persons educated at Maynooth 111 "' --es h s i' ` r e Bailie station and respectability which we . have all i for°l.lkto the Roman Catholic clergymen in foreign that th o ,, - .eta all of us entertain the highest respect, a . nd . i t ° eae re , -1 414 ,9 be Inert of education and manners, and enabled ' lll Pre4 t he influence which belongs to them for the socia l. Prod ucit. ent of the people. If the measure has the effect d o cl e b lirie e - o,,: s k t iell Men for the ministry we shall have rendere . a k s kti l!fory - ,„',.1 public by introducing and recommending this a 's insoeils, Lordships' adoption. I hope the measure will not -t t li e r t etit with our religious principles, or likely to injure ~e4ens co nvictions of Protestants.—( The Noble Duke "nid y Zito the details of the measure which have been t illklstaian. tedly before the public.) The annual hear.)gran binninid,perpetually recurring discussion.—(Hear, es — b "Perp et t hiit nothing can be more wise than makingths f ca p of h . lll l, to get rid of those discussions which . are the N -eit aY t a k.9 14 3 , of much ill-feeling and prejudice. I th . ere . - i. - ...it it i 3 desirable we should pass this Bill, if it if iIM I, t es ssrise,„:° other benefit than that of getting rid iSi -",,juetal discussions. I have already said that the grant ~,,_, -. 40. al u or - "lltien was never considered to involve any religious m l, 13 principles, and it cannot be considered to do so h_ - " t titios t tl s t I beg leave to remind your Lordships that this in i'lltingt:ali been maintained fifty years.—( Hear, hear. ). 1 ,.., 44 bas e e'ltY sears of that period we were engaged 11? w . ar, i s the eseatti,isstiaeienetlfit sinee then aff fo e r et a e lrg period of agitation, i the interests of Ire 44,uring which o yoU l .' l l 7 ,: t dlotnhe Cathelic f. ' Association and other e°eteio4ttistwhich you have had to make enactments, to pass n i k ett d ift ola, and other measures of that description. To the illkn e11,,1t question of all you put an end fifteen years ago— is' Since then rny Lords, we cannot say that we have L 4l, lllj el l t ,,terY tranquil state On the very morrow of the day ru lo s. of' curate Bill seas passed, measures were taken for the pur 0fP."41 ortj;ting discussion and agitation on the question of the 4444 and uien.--( Hear, hear.) There was a . good_ deal 1 / 4 „ t ,list th,,nd difficulty about this question, and particularly i of the des il l % Y e ars. Up to 1843 there existed a good deal of , Minds of some and terror in the minds of others. ' l eis $ "' Rear Great attention was drawn to fetlnentostanee lip'" . es he , and a e n ar effect on the question was produced in /1 07 14t hle r t o rtes ' and a great many doubted that it would be t i li te, toresist the attempt that was made, by tumult and Ilil l 'onl s C arry the repeal of the union.—( Hear, hear. ) 4 desi si ' abatever may be the opinion of the legal effect of hi *r ed ' 441 °f Your L dh . ' House on the writ of error de lie 10 . the month o n f r A s ' fru ' st or September last, there is no hi e itle:l s enses who o n ; doubts that it is absolutely im- Z t gairi earr Y any measure by tumult and violence in Ire. ear, s i t , t he wishes of the Government and the Parliament. tact' tbelar.) believe that no man in his senses now le,' o te ' a et, and that we are, therefore, this day, in a si iNt"tots cents take the consideration of this measure. We e e it it ,. sinned tho grant for fifty years, and c . annot with -144'01, 'r)tit having the appearance of persecution. There tsS ir ate' t e h i ght Millions of Catholics in Ireland, and we can /a Itai h er ° without religious instruction. My Lords, I ; 1 ,; th-aanirnous consent to the Bill .of which I thst . l , te,„ °h ° l lour to propose the second reading. . . 'ko'. 4 tis s - °f C AMBRIDGE said that he could not sit in tkirntleepaud giv e a silent vote on a question of such paramount kts f i n oasiii t i ° , t he people of Ireland. He thought it one of the liti e ; 4 4 iin"°,'S measures which had ever been introduced „he s * att s Pe ; and although he would give in to none in his Iv ki p -41 tent to the Protestant religion as established, he_ . e 0 , 1! t he question by his vote, and he really considered k t eit of .`rtiment deserved the thanks of the House for h fp,„. p it N, d -la .api rl ~, ar . t 'lli e. lita -st ODEN said that it grieved him to differ 41 b ss A "üble Duke who had introduced this p d s el .to;„ 4l -4,, 4 Member of their Lordships' House, e Lleet hl ta et Ze very earliest opportunity afforded him to en u-ses, t i ,eo he ir , ,the progress of this measure. Such was his p s , 4 lt h , J arth,„ lo l4 with an amendment that before they pro -01%1,7.'4%,..--,, they should appoint a Select Committee up fthr tls - 1 4 tin - Ltoto the nature of the instruction given in the ‘444 :4Ztti - n of Maynooth, which Parliament was now, in fers t' 4 t tha t Ned to s te e 0 establish, by conferring on it a permanent i 1' t j tion, t ile .ktusted that if in the course of discussion !e 'Le () P . m . ' be ° ,l; ll lions entertained by many Noble Lords in S ki s e pr "f o l t - h . : 11 of ti,,ld be forgiven, because he should have but ' rs. / ,‘L man who had ' no because for the sensibili- TIN th, n a Itle s ,',n (Lord Roden) had now f ora long ser . ies o d f 0: 4 t `t ti 'Der either of that or of the other House , a . n 'O7 t 4 . 1 04 l'ir ti ni t:. ll ,* had tought it inconsistent in the Parlia -01,0;e41 of ir_tit country even to vete the annual sum to ls, t ! dil e °to th ; !Ynooth. How much more, then, should he hOtiti oe t ras set '', Measure. He would rem ' ind Noble Lords n ik stl i i a .i. , tt t.Mtended to he, as before, a merely tolerated litit 4 lff er "'as intended to be a State establishment,. .but 1 4 , 1 )0 1,4• il n c, that it would not be under the supervision ilt' s4nY, or co uld could not look at this measure as one of mere N i44 44t ol lit t n it a y e a question of pounds,. shillings, and pence. He ~, , St, he 4 religious question, and if the House . wanted . t' ' et N 4 hemishould refer them to the numerous petitions I ss ih...the hem he had himself presented—and they did not SO 0: 4 ~,,,, se had of the middle classes only, le' th 4 low s , some from the higher, and others ip s i ks, s e re s r ' grades of society. There were peti m r 'I'M °ln Church of England men, from Wes ,,o, I tril e hdep ehs i t ti e ' to a° . de- e . nts,. from he Free Church of Scotland, ssoy sirth evisimination, for e all . had sunk minor diffe it I ta p _hed t _ ll ,t he would call this holy union. —(Cheers.) ti tiiti4 ritr ys... ° the opinions expressed by the great men of s., tlisslniniewistanti whom, if he named them, their Lordships Oh Sli ''dge I. ht be quoted. One et s te sii s k , 0 ue wort y o t4.t.tlis le l a ,e, in the House of Commons some sic°sselser,,,' ° L ebate on a similar question, and he would . pli L 4 ll l ';', H e ° I readin g a short quotation from what he had AVo l t i li was a Roden) stood high in the opinion of yli sh stie wi e (Lord had the honour and the . h.ap iti'linp aionre:!,_l,tirn well. He had loved him when living, k it h kt 1. 4„, hi tin memory when dead—and when he named . wsi t t „„ 4 Larne, he was that no one would coincide c2s el t red I.„.,ltated with greater sure fervour than the Noble ItLlit t° nstee„,',°Plsosite (Lord Brougham), who knew him I 'l ' It 'ad ; -e u him highly. The Noble Lord then pro vrti:tee, irl- quotation from a speech delivered by William ~I llt ls, 4 ' atd th e year 1808 on the meaning of the word OpihlC he a r as "length length to Which it should be .extended— idrll t he , s lp thine,°.lnPatible with the peace of society. He Ills Idies h `sathei,:„" l 'mg that great benefits had been conferred ear - -3 of Ireland from which Protestants l e /4 , d t e.„te,:eluded ; and 'he might merely cite ti tit„lte tn tand t e i t i Society, which had, he believed, done more nti 4 .l l P t it dow't soy other institution. Government . had, Yeli e n hets e 0 ,, 11 that society, and founded en its ruins a ' "s. g atte l cif th e r4ucation, which was contrary not only to e two the p r e ot hie rer - „ hy in that country, but he believed 01Ott) Ir e raids esstants also. It had been argued that there t4h4 rel,,d. for this measure —one, that it would give 4 t k e Sati: a rid the other, that it would extend the bles -4illp„lntit by -n , to the Irish Peo le Had it been received e ts 'n t xttoe Irish themserves . ? He should just read , , if %SAN irlacr front a letter of the Roman Catholic 'l'lt i . th e. a eu t na ag tie 1,2 t. • Higgins ; and also a quotation from tic' t bs.' Wh• ntry, / an Irish priest in a differen . t . pa g, r , t Ispehich has the Noble Lord read Dr. Higgin. s 11;ipthefi„Inid that readY appeared in all the journals. e q DIIIte i t, atisrthis measure was dictated by fear. ! 1 ,. %sp r ee s ItY-sb„,,rle believed that it was dictated by a wish ks e. t. l 4 l t l nh itiV ll e bi ll, one that it would secure a cordial and p 'ee, 4Phete, that "1. But no sooner had it gone forth ‘iip e, s hi a ss the agitation could nut be put . down St -th i ttle eu Monster meetings were again proclaimed. i tlipi l t si .t e ht s h 4 lin at Cork, another at Navan, and he had ls, Sheba 'oye s c ement of a meeting to be held on the S t 'idn th„ - ° Is r t ' ° 0 the Ist of July —( Cheers. ) Was that `isilth 4 . % lUit a ° h e s Bt anta of Ireland io be allowed—( Cheers) 14 *l'esti`g gi o - ' ° Pun the anniversary of the great victory, kie vi nfth ' l° 4 s and immortal King William secured iho,itrs.) hiessihf'snglish nation, arid for the Roman Catholics NibSi IN , N s 5 . which they never before possessed.— s pe n toeis wh o in her Majesty's Government to allow ( \ l l otl ... t th b e a t da " 7g a t v h e e up their peaceful and loyal pre cis? o h , se i nsult _ , , command of the Crown, to allow ts N ear, saesty' s ess ea • Let him call back the . recol_lee- Ott: l'is st r Deher7vernment to what occurred in . 1842. !li lt Is s l t,efe e s ' t aats of I' l. l l fury of agitation was carried so far ki t llt,'t io e and quitted the country in hundreds, 4' hskr,4 fearountry or in Arnerica.s Hear, bear.) kliNetlitZer icyisi isleGovernstiiethrove those people to emigrate— s,th- ~lle rets ; .. nent showed its consciousness of rid,tts7 realeas, h:ug the military force and fortifying the sj altN Wk s th a rt ) Strong measures were resorted to, ttlspNihn ireprteestoredattethe repeal agitation subsided, and the O 100 ) 4 , 1 , Verktt Peace. --( Hear, hear.) Prosperity s hes,' rain treadsait Promoted, speculation received a tls of th t) It Were projected in every quarter.— t , lid , e (-. ass , t 'vi e It uertilnn as the declaration of the inten tisti tt h e Rave n eht on this Bill were made known in , Is i ten t t read c rew life to ait ti In support of his sip at e 4,411 n extract g a on. I t r eat a° ° ] ter n ~_ from the work of Mr. Inglis, the t i..pl i Isopietout y 4 71,? Was no friend to the Protestant Es- doer);lis:Y was egg`me testimony to the fact, that the ran- ) ;li d tl 4 . tl i lan exi t te a ci r nted by the education at Maynooth. %Slitts n itll th a _Ml It tie ,„ I , 4 o B Paiti, as he and every one w i r e tisir:se e e Qtt ehtio ; tot. t th e eir H sorro t w.l i C at heers. ) had taken liN i n ntl P' s 'l mtis laur hond of D ingle, n i n n se th e e county w of Kerry, ii i 4 , 44 %4 ctlit i li . ei atni,:brigosrt the Roman Cath . olic priest N I , t ie t ql. ' 44 Lath i• rank, who was a magistrate, re- I h t ,tki hi ()! th'( Ch, e , °,le Persuasion and joined the Estab ki es ng of eo n , 8 ') The Noble Lord then read the ip th,ot 7,Persseu,,rra, addressed to the Lord Lieutenant, ti it k, N httaueir stated which they had suffered in conse)sse`Ntt ut I atatere!entious conduct. ( Hear, hear.) t l iti i'DitOw, a nd , ,1 that memorial were prove b et ted trelttbd°f pert'ue, therefore, agreed with Mr. highs , 11 l ter tst " ° niZ v en t h s as'Y more Anti-Protestant ' and ranco rlspiLinsi'sneati: the ,:n lu Spain. —( Hear, hear.) Whilst he tieN r t q -I '. he d':"1 Roman Catholics of his country a tri N I , l' k lild ~f I cl not think that further endowment of 4:l) s t n l Oni til ta ' "id e e e ti t se th at Object. a The Noble Lord th . en tlis t ne 5.,41e eeletree ir t 1 - 8‘ ,5 Mr. O'Connell before a Perim . - s t i„ th e ati, e th a , oa, %viten that gentleman gave testi )tiT th e kis et e 4 nt ittsblt,thede priests who formerly were educated strong Anti-Jacobin principles, but I. i ft tlid l ti s hn ls tl4 l, e(i n rl c cl ated at Maynooth were more identified t N ) 1 ‘ ttlt i ' "nse queritiv had lees of that property, l'ilti th 4t t 'vi i:a is i l s i i t Ir(4'113:calle!:1 loialty..-6‘ Hhear," md t ttly p e lt a 1 10 N alight not perhaps be aware of the nhoishee,flao Catholic had - to endure, viben he n that creed, but there was no such lia. danger to the Protestant clergyman who thought fit to adopt the Roman Catholic persuasion. He knew that these unfor tunate men would be persecuted. He could not convince any man more to be patient than the poor Roman Catholic, who left that Church for conscience sake, to join the Protestant form of belief. He felt assured that no Roman Catholic Peer, who now heard him, could do otherwise than believe that no Roman Catholic would be safe from persecution who had be come a Protestant. He had been lately present at a meeting held in Dublin, against this Bill; and there was a Roman Ca tholic priest who said he had been at Maynooth. He was called on to state what he knew of that institution. He said that as far as the confessional was concerned his mouth was sealed for ever ; but he (Lord Roden) had now before him a copy of the statement that that gentleman made, and he would read it. ( Here the Noble Lord read the statement, by which it appeared that the party alluded to was represented to state that every species of evasion was resorted to in order to avoid taking the oath of allegiance, such as feigning illness, not kissing the book, repeating the words of the oath backwards, tke. &c. The statement was a very long one, but the whole tenor of it was to the same effect, namely, devices for evading the oath of allegiance "to a Protestant Sovereign." When the Noble Lord had concluded reading the document, he went on to say that after the meeting was over, the individual who made the statement offered to his Lordship to swear to the truth of it.) He ( Lord Roden) would ask, what was the cause of all this disaffection, but the system of education now in force in Maynooth? The Noble Duke who had in troduced this measure had not made the slightest allusion to this system. If the doctrines taught at Maynooth were ultra montain doctrines—if they were the doctrines of Italy, then he would say they were at variance with allegiance to the Sovereign of this country by Irishmen.—( Hear, hear.) He would then ask, were not these grounds sufficient to warrant him in calling upon their Lordships to comply with his propo sition, namely, to appoint a Committee to inquire into the present system of education at Maynooth ?—( Hear, hear.) A commission of inquiry was appointed in the year 1825, for inquiring into the state of Ireland ; but that commission broke up without extending their inquiry to Maynooth. He was further justified in his demand for inquiry by the speech of Sir Robert Peel in 1840, when the Right Hon. Baronet said, in the debate on the Maynooth question, that he did not mean to contend that the system of education at Maynooth College was one which did not demand inquiry ; on the contrary, he ( Sir B. Peel) would be most anxious for in quiry, and if that inquiry had taken place, he would vote for the grant with much more satisfaction. He ( Lord Roden) now advocated the same principle—namely, the necessity for inquiry, and he called for it in the name of the people of Eng land and the people of Scotland...es( Hear.) He would new fortify his argument by a still stronger ground—namely, by reading from the Eighth Report on the state of Maynooth, under the presidency of Dr. Crolly, the names of the books read at Maynooth College ; they were, Delahogue's Dogmatical Theology, and Bailey's Moral Tracts. The Noble Lord next read an extract from an appendix to a Parliamentary report of 18,36, in which, he said, Dr. Machete denied that ultra-montaine doctrines were inculcated at Maynooth, as they were not conducive to the allegiance of Irish subjects to the British Crown. The Noble Lord then referred to a letter of the Cardi nal Prefect of the Propaganda at Rome in the year 1796, and read an extract from it, with a view to show that in May nooth College the students were obli g ed to read " Thomas Aquinas" as one of their College books, and contended that those students were obliged to read that book, which he ( Lord R.) would contend for it, contained nothing more nor less than ultra-montaine doctrines. Surely they would not give that sum to produce the disloyalty and misery which is so prevalent in that country. He would now give aq extract from " Thomas Aquinas" to show the bearing and tendency of that theologian's opinions. With respect to the question How heretics should be treated ?'' he distinctly states that heretics should be punished with death ; and this is the divine who is called in Maynooth their divine master. In another book used there" Menochius." the author of it, in reply to the question as to how heretics should be treated, refers to Maldonatus, who gives it as his opinion that heretics should be put to death rather than thieves or mur derers, because the former destroyed the soul, but the latter took away only the life or property. This he says in his commentary on that passage of the Scriptures.where allusion was made to the plucking up of the tares from the good seed. Now that system of instruction to which he had called their attention at once accounted for the crimes and enormities which were committed by the poor of Ireland. He considered that he established sufficient grounds why they should hesitate before they continued or augmented that grant—until they knew what really was the system of in struction pursued in Maynooth. He would, in conclusion, ree fer to only one other authority—Mr. Alexander Knox. He was a person who knew the state of the case well, being Se cretary to Lard Castlereagh, and treasurer to Maynooth, to which office he was appointed by that Nobleman. This person said that the three first clergymen who were ap pointed urofessors of Maynooth were three refugee French priests, w i;,o had escaped from the rope and the lamp post, and all the horrors of the French Revolution. The Noble Lord, having read a long statement of the opinions of Mr. Alexander in refes-ence to the doctrines inculcated at May nooth, proceeded to say that he now thought he had grounds for maintaining that the I....itra-montaine doctrines were still taught there.—( Hear, hear. 1 He would ask them what was there in that Bill to F erovide that the Gal ilean doctrines should be substitute for the ultra ti e Cardinal:Pre montaine doctrines, or that the injunctions of ce the trus feet of the Propaganda at Rome should not indite: • Catholic tees of the college. In consideration of his pot), fellow-countrymen he could not consent to that Bill. The Roman Catholic doctrines were dangerous. He had sworn, .in common wirh some of their Lordships, that Catholic doctrines were idolatrous. He, therefore, believed in the truth of what he swore, and believing so, he could not consent to any mea sure that established or perpetuated them. Those who felt strongly on the subject were called illiberal and bigoted, and he had often heard it said that he delighted in calling his Catholic friends idolators. He had lived many years among his Roman Catholic brethren. He had taken an active part against them. In 1829 he exerted himself to the utmost to prevent the admission of Roman Catholics to that and the other House. But he de fied any one to stake that ever he uttered a harsh word against them. All he would say was, that if they could divest them selves of priesk influence, he would freely trust his life and property amongst them.—( Hear, hear.) The eyes of the community were on their Lordships. There never was such excitement in the country on any other subject, and much of the future happiness or misery of the country would deperd upon the decision to which they would come upon that ques tion. The measure had been frequently argued as if the Ro man Catholics alone comprised the people of Ireland. The question of population had been glanced at by the Noble Duke, and he believed that his statements were nearly correct— namely, seven millions of Catholics and one million and a half of Protestants and Dissenters. Although the latter were the minority they comprised those who had always displayed affection and loyalty to that country, and were to a man opposed to the repeal of the Union. ( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Were they then to sacrifice that portion of their Irish subjects to the howl of the priesthood ? The Protestants of Ireland thought they had been betrayed, and they now imagined that little else remained for them but to consult for the altar and their homes. —( Hear, hear. ) They asked them to put down agitation, and in the face of their entreaties their Lordships stood aloof and apathetic; and they are disgusted at the policy which was pursued. When the day of trial arrives (and it must arrive sooner than was expected) they would find the Protestants of freland true to the consti tution, and arrayed on the side of England. He should now move that, previous io the consideration of the Bill before the House, a Select Committee should be appointed to inquire and report to the House what were the class-books and books of reference used at Maynooth, and what was the nature of the tenets and doctrines inculcated there.—( Hear, hear. ) The Bishop of LONDON, who was very indistinctly heard, said he was labouring under indisposition, which would prevent him troubling their Lordships at much length, but he was anxious to express his opinion on the question before the House. After the most mature deliberation he had determined to with hold his consent from the measure now introduced, regarding it, as he did, as contradictory to and subversive of the best principles of the Constitution, apart from all theological consi derations. In the latter view he would a bstain from discuss ing the question, believing, as he did, that that House was a very unbecoming arena for polemical controversy. especially since the admission of Peers of a creed contemned by the articles and fundamental doctrines of the Ang lican Church. When, however, he remembered the state of the Irish peasantry, moulded into disaffection toward England and her established religion by the teaching of their priests, and that from that class were selected the students subsequently devoted to ascetic instruction, he could not conceive a system more cal culated to create and prolong error. As to the de fence in favour of the measure, that it would tend to the subsequent promotion of trade, by extending the opportunities of study and education, he should be in clined to give that argument some weight, did he see the slightest intimation of a change in the present objectionable system. Had he perceived such a change even prospectively held out, he should have hesitated in the record of his present vote, hut in the absence of all such pledge or anticipation, he believed that the increase of the present system would be but the encouragement of error, and its furtherance the promotion of principles repugnant to the Scriptures and the tenets of the Established Church. The framing of the Bill was one of the most important events in the history of this country. If the measure were passed, it would lead to the endowment of all reli g ious systems, and would lead to the acknowledgement that the State was not a competent authority to judge on the sub ject of religion. This, he held, was the first step to link the State to the Roman Catholic religion. He would beg to remind their Lordships that the original endowment of Maynooth was not that it should be considered a grant from the State, but merely as a perpetuation of the grants of pious individuals for the pur poses of Roman Catholic education. This view of the grant was supported by the Noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) when Sir Arthur Wellesley, and by a late pious and active op ponent of the detestable traffic of negro slavery, Mr. Stephens. He judged not of the feelings of other parties, but pledged as he was to oppose all heresies and errors, and to call upon others to do the same, how was it possible for him to support such an endowment as that proposed ? (Hear, hear.) It might be said that by supporting the Regium Donum he was supporting Arianism, but if Arianism was taught at the College of Belfast, it was no part of the original understanding, whereas Maynooth College was established avowedly to teach the doc trines of the Roman Catholic religion. With regard to the grants to the Roman Catholics of Canada, which had been re ferred to as a parallel case, he might say that that was not :the case, as the grant to the Roman Catholies there existed prior to the war by which those colonies were united to the Crown of Great Britain. He might be asked, if you will not do this for the Roman Catholics of Ireland what will you do? He did not feel that he was called upon to answer such an inquiry. He gave the greatest credit to the pure, and honourable, and generous intentions of the Government in bringing forward this measure. He had no doubt that they regarded it as a measure tending to heal, in some degree, those wounds which had so long prevented the peace and osperity of Ireland, and as in no way calculated to injure the-Established Church ; but he himself entertained a very different opinion of the measure. He could easily conceive the embarrassment of statesmen, when they cast their eyes over the map of Ireland, how that country was to be governed. He (the Bishop of London) must confess himself entirely ignorant. —( Hear, hear.) But while he professed himself ignorant of the right mode of governing that country in detail, he had no hesitation or doubt in expressing his opinion as to what was the right principle. It was briefly this, and with it he would con clude : in governing that or any other country, never, for any consideration, do that which is clearly wron g in principle. Do your best to discover what is right, and then follow that up fear lessly and fully, trusting for the issue to the Supreme Disposer of events, who, as all experience showed them, would never fail to uphold his own truth.— ( Hear, hear. ) The Earl of St. GERMANS thought that the Noble Lord who had addressed the House, and the Right Reverend Prelate who had just sat down, had altogether mistaken the nature of the grant. If they looked at the Act of 1795, they would find that. a provision was made for the education of the Roman Catholic priesthood. This grant, both before and after the Uuion, had been annually voted. It had been voted by every Parliament for the last fifty years, and thus, upon the faith of successive Protestant Parliaments, and, among others, by those in which Mr. Pitt was Prime Minister, had the grant been conceded ; and he (Lord Germans) did not see any distinc • tion bete eels the grant. as given heretofore, and as now proposed to be taken from the Consolidated Fund. With regard to the objectioeo that had been urged against the system of educa tion pursued at May nooth he would refer to the Commissioners that had inquired into the state of education in Ireland, and who had referred specially to Maynooth College. He stated the course of education pursued there was not such as had been represented, and bore evidence to the fact, that the doe- trine of Divine allegiance and submission to the Pope in temporal affairs was not taught in that institution.—(Hear, hear.) There were, no doubt, many imperfections in the system of education pursued there, and parties who issued from thence had taken part in the violent political proceed ings which had recently distracted Ireland, but this evil had arisen from the meagre and imperfect system of education which had prevailed there, and which the present measure proposed to remedy. Was it a matter of astonishment that priests, placed in the midst of a starving population, and imperfectly educated, should be led away by the wiles of agitators ? The Noble Earl alluded to Bishop Higgins; but Bishop Higgins was not a student at Maynooth, but had been educated at Rome or Paris. The College was established when Jacobinical princi ples were rife, and there were a great many of them then—a very considerable number indeed—inferior in rank and educa tion to the present class of Irish clergy, and who were called " hedge priests." The Irish priests were at least attentive to their flocks, and when " pain and anguish wrung the brow" of the suffering members of their flock, the priest was fore most to minister to their spiritual and temporal necessities, and to console them.— ( Hear.) Was it not worth while to make the proposed experiment and raise the priests of Ireland in the social as well as in the literary and scientific scale ? The Noble Earl did not suggest any remedy, aad admitted that he knew of nothing which would be a salu tary and permanent means of restoring tranquillity to that country. The Noble Earl complained of the defective state of the Protestant Church in Ireland, but he could hardly think a Church was deficient in a pecuniary point of view which, not having a congregation of a million, enjoyed revenues to the amount of 600,0001.—(Hear, hear.) He would sit down by expressing an earnest hope that their Lordships would consent to the second reading of the Bill with an overwhelming majority.—( Cheers. ) The Duke of MANCHESTER thought Maynooth College rather tended to keep the Irish people in a state of bondage and ignorance. He thought it was very important to know what the tendency of the doctrines of Maynooth really was, for a gentleman who had been professor at Maynooth said all the bishops of Ireland were Repealer.. And yet, strange to say, it was those same dis affected and disloyal men her Majesty's Government was about to patronise. The Noble Duke read several extracts, showing the state of crime in Ireland. (The extracts were taken from ,the charges of judges appointed by the present Government—Baron Lefroy and others.) Six hundred and fifty-three offences were committed in six months, Baron Lefroy said, in one riding of Tipperary, and not a fourth of the offenders had been brought to conviction. Such was the moral condition of the peeple of Ireland. Now these were proofs that not only did the Roman Catholics conceal crime, but they also connived at it. The Noble Duke then read part of the evidence taken before the House of Lords, to show that an Irish priest had, from the altar, denounced those who had given evidence in a criminal case as informers and blood mongers. They were also told that, after the concessions of 1830, crime had greatly increased; Whiteboyism prevailed,'and, instigated by their priesthood, the populace evinced a deter mined opposition •to the payment of tithes. In 1832 assas sinations and murders wore no longer rare, and in few in stances could the crimes be traced to the guilty parties ; and they knew, en unquestionable authority, that the teachers of the people were the great movers of crime. The doctrines taught at Maynooth all led to the consequences he had de tailed, because they were founded on Dens' theology. The doctrines of the Jesuits were discountenanced in other Catholic countries. But it was maintained in Ireland, and the books of the Jesuits were class books in Maynooth. This led to the conduct of the Irish Catholic priests in giving absolution to a man before he has made restitution. This was carried so far iu Ireland, that it had occurred when men convicted of Ribbonism were disposed to make restitution, the priest to whom they confessed had interfered to prevent them.—(Hear, hear.) If those doctrines were not taught at Maynooth, it would be only justice to the priests who governed that college to give them an opportunity of disproving the charges. —(Hear, hear.) Why was it that Romanism was more impracticable in Ireland than in other countries ? It was owing to the freedom of the British Constitution, which left the outer man of the Romanist free, giving the priest the means of making his inner man more enslaved.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He spoke of Romanism now as a political, not as a religious, scheme.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that there ought to be an inquiry into the doctrines which the Govern ment was about to spread, before the Parliament should be called upon to give money for the purpose. There was the doctrine of " venial sin," which tended to weaken the morals of the people, and to lead them into so slight a disregard of the rights of property, that their own temporal interests were damaged at the same time as the interests of their souls, and they continued in starvation and misery whilst their souls were endangered. The doctrine of " venial sin" kept the morals of the people so low as to deter eapital from going to the country He would occupy the House no longer than to declare his belief, that if even all the forfeited estates in Ireland were restored to the Roman Catho lics, they could not be loyal to a P ro t es t an t S overe i gn so l ong as he bulls to which he had referred remained in force. Lord BEAUMONT protested against the charges made against his co-religionists. If the Noble Lord who spoke last believed that such doctrines as he charged the Roman Catholics with existed, he did not do his duty unless he called upon the Par liament to sweep such venom from the land. If such charges were true, toleration would be a crime. But when he listened to the authorities which the Noble Duke and the Noble Earl who spoke before him had made up their story from, he found that those Noble Lords knew nothing of the doc trines that were taught by the Catholic Church. Many of the dogmas charged upon the Church were the wily enuncia tions of statesmen for political purposes, and never had the -ountenance of the Church. Many of the questions involved in ,:"em were never for a moment entertained by the Church. The Iy ` ' ble Lord might as well have quoted from the book of any layrna o, and state such lay doctrines as of the highest ec clesiastical ay: thority. There was a medium bet ween th e doc trines of the Gallican Church and those of the Trans alpine or Tran: montane party. (Cries of " Hea r , hear.") The book upon which so much stress had bee n . laid by the Noble Lords opposite had, in many particulars, been condemned by the Chen •ch in the most authoritative man ner. He would, therefore, if h.' might be allowed to use the . term, give the lie most positively to the assertion, that the doctrines contained in that book ( 0 Dens' Theology") were the docrines of the Church. . Earl RODEN said he found the hook' in the catalogue of the Maynooth class-books. Lord BEAUMONT said if the Noble Earl had heard him out he would have found that he was prepared to exp lain that circum stance. The students of theology were required t..) read over the antagonist works, and this book, as read in the Qsussse, was pre pared by an introduction, cautioning the students against the doctrines.—(Loud cries of " Hear t hear.") Even if this grant to Maynooth were refused, the College would flourish—the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland wt - Suld flourish as it had hitherto done, in spite of every persecutio. l —( Hear, hear )—and, however the Government of this country might try to lighten the poverty and improve the condition of that suffering people—( Hear, hear, hear).—unless the Noble Earl was prepared to take a backward stop, he could not leave things as they were, but must take measures to elevate the op pressed Church, to improve the condition of the people, and to diminish the bitter antagonism between the two Churches.— (Hear, hear.) The more nearly the two Churches were brought to one level, the less would be the animosity between their members.—( Hear.) He had been in countries where the two communions worshipped in the same churches, and the utmost harmony prevailed amongst them.—( Hear. ) Let the Government of this country place the two Churches upon the same footing here as they were in the parts of Ger many to which he referred, and they would find the same cor diality to be the result. He should only add, that in speaking to this question he was placed in the dilemma either of speaking of it as he felt, or as an indication of something that was to follow in the same direction. This might alarm some ; but even at that risk he would rather do so than hold hack and speak in a cautious or jesuitical manner.—( Hear, hear.) He did not mean to look upon it as a mere question of recon ciliation, for he did not think it would be sufficient to reconcile the Roman Catholic priests, not to speak of the Catholic laity, of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) There was also something to be done for the laity, if this country meant to conciliate Ireland. He alluded to the Bill now before the other House for the extension of lay education. Many men of high station, if well educated, might then take a turn for divinity, and having become good theologians they might enter Maynooth College and become Catholic clergymen of the highest order.—( Hear. ) There was another subject which he would fain allude to. He did not wish to make this solely a religious question. It was well known that not only in Ireland but all over Europe, the poorer the clergy were, the greater their influ ence ; and theref,re on that ground this House should not hesitate to accede to the measure; for it would have the effect of elevating the character of the Irish clergy.— ( Hear, hear.) With regard to the persecutions for consci ence sake, to which the Noble Lord opposite had alluded, he ( Lord Beaumont) fully agreed with the Noble Lord, that protection and respect should be extended to the religious opinions of all.--( Hear, hear.) Time was, when the clergy of Bavaria were most intolerant; but now they were amongst the most liberal men of Europe.—( Hear, hear.) He would not further trespass on their Lordships ; but he could not sit down with est expressing his gratitude to the Government for this measure, as a Roman Catholic, though it was no more than justice demanded, or was intended by those who preceded the present Government.—( Loud cheers.) Lord HARDWICK rose, and moved that the debate be then adjourned. Lord BROUGHAM thought, that if they adjourned to night, they would have to adjourn to-morrow night also. At any rate they should continue the debate for a few hours longer. Lord COLCHESTER moved that the debate be continued. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought that an oppor tunity should be afforded to the Lord Bishop of Cashel to address their Lordships that night. The Bishop of CASHEL rose and said that if he spoke that night, he had one consolation to offer their Lordships, that he would not detain them so long as, in all probability, he would if they adjourned the Bill till to-morrow night.—(Great Laughter.) The doctrines taught at Maynooth would, in his opinion, disgrace any religion. It was, he thought, a snbject of rejoicing that the clergy of their Church were educated as gentlemen, and were not merely stuffed with dogmatic theology. He would not detain them long. One point which he would refer to was the infu sion of the Jesuits into the institutions that were spreading over the country. Taking everything into account, he would call upon the Roman Catholic Members of that House to join with him in endeavouring to arrest the influence of the Jesuits, which was becoming so powerful and dangerous. But the main ground on which he felt himself called upon to oppose the Bill was his disinclination to be a party to the dissemina tion of error. He trusted he would express himself so as to give no offence to those Catholics who were in that House, but he could not help alluding tothe respective meritsof the Church of Rome and the Reformed Church. They were long since tried and the verdict was given against the Church of Rome. That verdict was that the Church of Rome was superstitious and. idolatrous. He felt that the Church of England had a refer ence to the Church of Rome which it had to no other Church, for it had come out from the Church of Rome in consequence of the errors which had crept into the latter. The ancients, when they pledged their friends, first of all drank themselves out of the cup, and on the same grounds he could never think of allowing others to drink of the moral cu of error which he refused to taste himself.—( Hear.) He doubted whether the principles of the measure were in con sonance with the oath taken by the Sovereign, and he could not conceive how any Minister could present a Bill for sig nature at that Throne which was upheld alone by contradictory belief. Anticipating that the present was but a commence ment of a principle that would result in the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church, and thus present the anomaly and the disgrace of a State endowing:two Churches of antagonist doctrines, because its Government believed none, he should record his solemn and decided opposition against the Bill, and thereby redeem his pledge to his country and his God. With these sentiments he would conclude. Lord CLIFFORD said, he rose to ask a question of the Right Rev. Prelate, whether be knew the contents of the bth Report of the Commissioners of Education? The Bishop of CASHEL—I do not. Lord CLIFFORD was of opinion that the Right Rev. Prelate was therefore not in a position to give a definite opinion on the subject. He (Lord Clifford) would refer to the evidence of the Rev. Peter Kenny, one of the order of Jesuits, given before that Commission, who, on being asked respecting allegiance to the Pope, stated that their first allegiance was due to the Sovereign of the country.—( Hear, hear.) After this he could not see what objection could be urged against the system of education pursued at Maynooth. The Earl of WINCHILSE A said it was too late to go further into the debate that night, but he would engage, on THE SUN, LONDON, TITESDAI EVENING, JUNE 3, 1845 another evening, to prove to the Noble Lord, and to the House, that the very opposite doctrines were taught. The debate was then adjourned at One o'clock. ROUSE OF COMMONS, Juue 2. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. The Chester Improvement Bill was; read a third time and passed. The Stokenchnrch Road Bill was read a third time and passed. The Yoker Road Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. GISBORNE moved the third reading of the Midland Railway Bill ( Lincoln and Nottingham). Colonel ROLLESTONE presented a petition against the Bill, and moved, as an amendment, that the Bill should be read a third time that day week. The O'CONOR DON thought no benefit could be ob tained by postponing the third reading of the Bill. Mr. CHRISTOPHER hoped the House would not sanc tion the postponement of the third reading of the Bill. If any party had not appeared before the Committee, it was their fault; but they would have an opportunity of appearing before a Committee in another place. Sir J. R. REID opposed the postponement of the third reading of the Bill. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE believed that the Bill was not necessary at all, and if his Gallant Friend had moved that the Bill should be read a third time that day three or six months, he would have voted with him ; as it was, he thought his Gallant Friend had good grounds for moving for delay. He believed there was not a single indi vidual in Nottingham who was in favour of this measure, which if carried into effect, would cross two high roads. If the Bill were postponed for a week no doubt some arrange ment would be made that would be satisfactory. Mr. W. COLLETT supported the third reading of the Bill. Mr. MUNTZ supported the third reading of the Bill. Lord WORSLEY trusted the Hon. Member for Notting hamshire would withdraw his motion. After some observations, the amendment was withdrawn, and the Bill was read a third time and passed. The Great Grimsby and Sheffield Junction Railway Bill was read a third time and passed. On the motion of Sir J. TROLLOPE the Midland Rail way ( Syston to Peterborough) Bill was read a third time and passed. Molyneux's Estate Bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed. The Scottish Central Railway Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. METCALFE moved the third reading of the Newcas tle-upon-Tyne Coal Turn Bill. After some observations from Mr. LABOUCHHRE and Sir G. CLERK, Mr. T. DUNCOMBE suggested that the debate should be adjourned for a week. After a few observations from Sir G. Clerk, Mr. Labou cherc, Lord G. Somerset, and Mr. H. Ilinde, the debate was adjourned to Thursday next. The Southampton and Dorchester Railway Bill, the Kendal and Windermere Railway Bill, and the West London Railway Bill, were severally read a third tine and passed. The West London Railway Bill was read a second time. The Brighton, Lewes, and Hastings Railway Bill (Hast ings, Rye, and Ashford Extension) was read a second time. GAME LAWS. Mr. BRIGHT presented several petitions against the Game Laws. FACTORY WORK. Mr. MUNTZ presented several petitions from the West Riding of Yorkshire in favour of a Ten Hours' Bill. Mr. HUME presented a petition, praying for a further limitation of the hours of labour. Mr. AGLIONBY presented a petition against the sale of intoxicating liquors on the Sabbath day. FIRE IN DOVER-STREET. Colonel J. WOOD wished to know whether the evidence connected with the late melancholy fire which took place in Dover-street, so far as it related to fire-escapes and furnishing► ladders, had, according to the decision of the Co roner, been reported to the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that a retort on that subject had not been laid officially before him. In reference to the policy of making public any cau tion against fire, that matter had been carefully con sidered some time ago. His Noble Friend at the head of the Woods and Forests had endeavoured to obtain from foreign countries all the information possible with re ference to prevention in these matters. There ought to be an especial establishment whose peculiar duty it should be to take precaution against fire.—( Hear.) He had not yet re ceived all the information which it was desirous to obtain, but when he should receive it it would be his duty to bring forward some substantial measure on the subject. NEW ZEALAND. Mr. HINDLEY wished to put a question to the Hon. Gen tleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies on the subject of a petition which had been received from New Zealand. It had been stated in that petition that a piece of land had been granted for the purposes of interment in New Zealand. This piece of ground had been used for interment, without reference to creed or sect, until the ar rival of the Bishop, who had prohibited the use of the ground for such a purpose. He (Mr. Hindley) wished to ask if the Hon. Gentleman opposite had received any information on the subject ? ICIr. HOPE said he had not. SCOTCH BANKING. Mr. P. M. STEWART inquired if the Government had any objectioi to postpone the Committee on the Scotch Banking for a week, by which time the opinion of the people of Scotland might be obtained upon it. The CHANCELLOR of the, EXCHEQUER said that as the adjourned debate on the Irish Colleges Bill would have precedence that evening, the Scotch Banking Bill could not be brought on until a future day. The Government there fore intended to move the Committee on the Bill pro forma that evening, and to propose certain trifling amendments. The discussion, tkerefore, would be taken at a future stage of the Bill. THE CASE OF MR. MEYER. Mr. HUME said he wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment with respect to the case of Mr. Meyer, who was com mitted for trial for an assault, and for whom Mr. Twy. ford, ens of the magistrates at Bow-street, refused bail. Mr. Meyer was a most respectable man, and his case had excited much attention on account of the peculiar circumstances connected with it. Now he (Mr. Hume) wished to, ask if the Right Hon. Baronet had inquired inter the circumstances, and what steps he had taken to prevent a repetition of such con duct on the part of Mr. Twyford ? Sir JAMES GRAHAM, who spoke in so low a tone that he was at times scarcely audible in the gallery, said that his attention had been drawn to the case by the vestry of Marylebone. Mr. Meyer it appeared had ,been committed to pri son an d su b sequen tly lib era t e d, an d the grand jury had ignored the bill on its coming before them. He I;ad, therefore called on Mr. Twyford for an explanation o f th e reasons which had induced him to commit Mr. Meyer for trial. His explanation (so we understood) satisfied him (Sir James Graham) that Mr. Twyford had acted consistently. The remainder of the Right Hon. Baronet's statement was lost in the noise which prevailed in the House, and from the low tone of his 'mice. MEMBERS' DAYS. Mr. WARD said, that seeing the Right Hon. Member !or Taunton (Mr. Labotichere) in his place, he would beg to ask him whether he would have any objection to postpone the motion which he had on the paper for to-morrow. He bad himself a notice on the paper, which he had postponed for several days, and as there was now only one day in the week which was appropriated to private business, unless he could obtain this favour he should have no opportunity of bringing his motion on at all. Mr. LABOUCHERE said, that though anxious to bring his motion before the House, yet in consideration of the notice of his Hon. Friend he would beg to postpone his motion till a future day. CHARITABLE BEQUESTS' BILL. Mr. ROSS said he was elision; to correct a misrepresenta tion which had arisen in Ireland, respecting what he had stated concerning Mr. O'Connell. He did not say that Mr. O'Connell did not possess the confidence of the Irish people, but that what Mr. O'Connell had said was not in accordance with the sentiments of the Roman Catholic Bishops of Ireland. MR. O'DRISCOLL. Sir T. FREMANTLE, in 'reply to an Hon. Member, said that he had heard to-day, from the Lord Chancellor, that he had felt it his duty to issue a supersedeas to remove Mr. O'Driscoll from the commission of the peace. CHRISTCHURCH COLLEGE, OXFORD. Mr. BLACKBURN said, that before the order of the day was read for the Academical Institutions in Ireland Bill, he wat anxious to correct an insinuation which had been thrown out by the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department against the Colleg e of Christch urc h a t O x ford, in which he said that the students at that college were not required to attend any divinity lectures; to: obtain a degree. He would state from the rules of the College that there were divinity lectures on Mon day, Wednesday, and Friday in every week, immediately after chapel time, and he knew, of his own knowledge that many able men had been refused their degrees because they were unable to pass the divinity examination. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the Hon. Member was a much younger member of the University than himself. What he had said was that when at Oxford he had been neither advised nor compelled to attend divinity lectures during the two first years of his attendance, that was from 1810 to 1812. In the third year, however, he had been required to attend them, and that was he first year when those lectures were delivered. ACADEMICAL INSTITUTIONS-IRELAND. On the ardor of the day being read, Mr. M. MILNES said that though labouring ender several indisposition, he would as briefly as possible state his opinions to the House. The Bill before the House was opposed upon two very different and distinct grounds, and with two very different and distinct objects. For one of them he entertained every respect, but he could not say so much for the other. The first was, the opposition of his Hon: Friends the Members for Oxford and Cambridge, which he might call the Protestant opposition. Now he could not help observing that this opposition came very ungraciously from those Hon. Gentlemen, after their opposition to the Bill for the endowment of Alaynooth. They refused to give any education to the Catholics of Ireland, and now they ob jected to a Bill for educating the laity of Ireland. There was another line of objection ; his Hon. F r i en d sa id that this education ought not to be given unless it was founded on religion. He thought that if they were to examine the matter they would find that they did not use the word religion in the proper sense. They did not use the word religion in the sense in which the Roman Catholics would use it.. They desired that that religion should be peculiarly and especially Protestant. They said that the Government must either establish colleges in Catholic Ireland on Protestant principles, or they will not consent to the colleges at all. His Right lion. Friend the Member for Cambridge said that no education was sufficient unless founded on a religious basis; but he would not allow them that intellectual education, unless they should reserve to themselves the right of founding it on their own domestic and religious instruction, with which the Government did not think it proper t o i n t er f ere . They must trust the academical education of the youth of Ire land to the Roman Catholic clergy of that country.—( Hear. ) They might make some restrictions in the system, but it would end in that. He appealed to what he had said both within and without that House that he had always considered the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland able and devoted men, and that their only faults arose from their historical condition ; but they had been too long occupied in what he might term practical mat ters, than to promote the cultivation of literature and of sci ence. If the youths in the west or in the south were members of the Roman 'Catholic faith, it was only just that the professors should be Roman Catholics. With respect to an observation of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford, he could say that during the whole time he was at that University li e h a d never heard the subject of divinity mentioned. He would rejoice when Trinity College was placed on a wider field of competition. lie thought that the course which the Roman Catholics of Ire land had taken with respect to this measure was nee which was not calculated to advance the object they had in view. Let the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland exercise as it did its legiti mate, fair, and indep.nAt nt influence over the country. Let it extend over them its parental care—a care becoming the age and time they found it existing in—a care becoming the period of life to which this academical education was to be applied, and they might depend upon it tee sad results anticipated by his Right lion. Friend the Member for Oxford would never come to pass. • Lord J. RUSSELL quite agreed in one observation made by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. Tbat Hen. Gentleman bad said that the measure made no pretence to perfection. He agreed with him in this, but he owned he did not think it a merit in the Bill. He owned it would have been better if the measure now brought before them bad been less carelessly prepared, and had led, as he thought it would have led, to the establishment of a complete system of education in Ireland. He said this because he acknowledged that the motives which had induced the bringing forward of this measure was to provide for the happiness of the people of Ire land. He agreed that the object was praiseworthy, and he differed widely from his Hon. Friend the Member br the University of Oxford, who was one of the strongest objectors to this Bill, but at the same time, on a revision of the different provisions of the Bill, he could not but think that it still re quired much alteration and improvement to fit it for the objects for which it was intended. He did not consider the scheme recommended by her Majesty's Government would avail for the purposes to which it was ap propriated. As respected Ireland, he thought that the Roman Catholic religion there rendered it incumbent that a better organisation should exist in any scheme of academical education than was contemplated in that country. In England there was an Executive Government which was respected by the people, who paid a willing and ready obedience to it, and there were established laws which were generally acquiesced in and obeyed by the people of both England and Scotland, and there was a Church in both those countries which was in the possession and exercise of great influence. There was also another relation, that of landlord and tenant, which yielded the landlord the due fruits of industry, and extended to the tenant the blessings of protection and peace in his avocations. If we look at all these relations as regards Ireland, we shall discover a very great difference between them. The Executive in Ireland was vague and unsatisfactory. The administration of the law was attended with danger and difficulty, and was unsafe. The Prime Minister of the Government had admitted there was no confidence in the administration of the law which gave satisfaction to the people of Ireland, and a similar objection would apply to the present Established Church in Ireland. The relation of landlord and tenant, as it now existed, tended rather to the commission of crime than to the gond conduct of the people. On the subject of education, he thought that the various orders of the State ought to be united together, and any measure that had for its tendency the promotion of the good of either class should be adopted, so as to receive the sanction of all parties. He held with a great proportion of the people of England that the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland was one of those powers by which great good might be promoted, tied by which all the people there might be united together in social brotherhood, and be reduced in obedi ence to authority, and to a feeling of just respect for the laws. The Roman Catholic Church, in his opinion, ought to be consulted on any scheme for popular education in Ireland. The terms which they might demand might be extravagant, but what to receive, and what to reject would be a matter of mutual accommodation. The Academical Education Bill, as it at present stood, created great distrust amongst the Ro man Catholic Prelacy and priesthood in Ireland, and they had come to a resolution, implying fear and distrust, that the faith and morals of the middle orders of people in Ireland would be endangered, and probably destroyed, by the proposed measure ; and unless these difficulties were resolved, the Roman Catholic clergy could not conscientiously recommend those persons who came to them for spiritual advice, to send their sons to the colleges it was proposed to found. He thought that the Roman Catholic Prelates would receive little satisfaction from the various observations that had fallen from Hon. Members, in that House, on the subject. They had been told that it was intended to put down their power with a strong hand. Observations had been used by the Hon. Gentleman who had last sat down as to the system of education pursued in Italy, and that at Verona pupils were in structed in the principles of a faction which was called " Young Italy." He had also alluded to the educational plans pursued in the Universities of Germany and France, but so far from following the unwholesome precedents laid down by that Hon. Member, he (Lord John Russell) would fly far from them and avoid them as precedents to be altogether avoided.-- (Hear, hear.) He would ask if no means could be suggested that would render the proposed measure more acceptable to the religious majority of Ireland. It had been objected to the measure that it did not embrace any provision for religious education. They had been told by the Right Hon. Gentle man opposite that there were precedents and analogies for in stitutions of education without religion, but it appeared to him that the analogies had very little resemblance; and the prece dents were without authority.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, with respect to the schemes of edu cation pursued at Oxford and Cambridge, that very little reli gious education prevailed in those establishments, and yet they would not admit Dissenters into those collegiate institutions. Before the reformation the hoods of those colleges were univer sally Homan Catholi cs , b u t d ur i ng t h e re i gn of Henry VIII. they had been deprived of their appointments and sent adrift; and again, in the reign of Queen Mary, they had been reinstated in their places; and further, when Queen Elizabeth succeeded to the throne, these professorships were resumed by persons profess ing the Protestant reformed religion, and it was provided that religious instruction should form a main constituent of the edu cation taught in those universities. With respect to secular education, it was not true that it was an evil unless accompanied by religious education; and, in his opinion, it was a desirable thing.—(Hear, hear.) He would say, that no man who pos. sessed the means of gaining secular instruction without religious education would refuse to avail himself of the means afforded. There was, however, a difficulty in public education which could not be easily resolved as to the classes who were to be instructed. He had given his support to the measure for esta blishing the University of London, because he thought that Dissenters, Roman Catholics, and others professing religious opinions not congenial with those: entertained by the Esta blished Church, should not be deprived of the opportunity and means of obtaining a collegiate education equal to the advan tages which were derived from Oxford and Cambridge Univer sities, from which the individuals referred to were debarred. The London University possessed the power only of conferring degrees. There were various colleges in connexion with the University belonging to the Independents, the Baptists, and others, where the peculiar tenets of those sects, as regarded religious matters, were conducted by theological professors. The case of analogy of this University and the Universities of Scotland, where the religion differed only in ceremonial per formances from the Established Church, were not applicable to the condition of education in Ireland. In Ireland there was a university which was liberal to a certain extent, as far as re garded its under-graduates, but with respect to the bestowal of its honours it was separate and exclusive. —( Hear.) He would contend that that university could constitute no prece dent for the establishment of the proposed educational system. The universities intended to be formed should differ in their system and bearings from all the universities in Eng land, Ireland, or Scotland. They should be arranged on such principles as would suite the state of the country. The Hon. Member for Cork objected to the scheme because all the professors were to be nominated by the Government. If the people of Ireland were willing to accept this arrangement, and were content that the professors should be so named, he had nothing to say against the measure, but the contrary was the case. The people were afraid of the mal-influence likely to result from leaving the power altogether in the hands of the Administration. He (Lord J. Russell) could not see the great advantage to be derived from these colleges as at present proposed, either looking to the state of Ireland, or regarding the principles on which the colleges were to be founded. He con tended the Government ought to take advantage of the influ ence which the Roman Catholic clergy possessed. He would say let secular instruction be given if you leave out religious education, but if religious instruction be contemplated, let the Roman Catholics be consulted.—( Hear, hear. ) If you would give them authority to expel students who were disobedient to the orders of the Board they would get over the evil. But there remained another feature of the plan ; that was, the feature of giving degrees of studentship at the University. He thought that ought to form part of the plan. They had the Trinity College attached to an University able to give de. gives, and consequently superior to these provincial institutions. For these reasons he thought the plan crude and ill-digested, and he thought that it would have been much better if they had consulted the Roman Catholic Prelates, and others high in au thority in that Church; they would have had a much better prospect of coming to a favourable termination. • He meant such men as Archbishop Murray, a man whose fidelity to his church was to him a high proof of his fidelity to the State ; and had they taken such advice as his, the future would have been much more clear and happy. The Presbyterians were, he be lieved, favourable to the plan, but this did not give the advan tage which they obtained in the grant to Maynooth. That wont straight to its object, and was not tainted with the defect which this Bill would suffer from. Notwithstanding all these deficiencies, however, he could not agree with the Noble Lord the Member for Newark in opposing the second reading of this Bill. He should vote for it because he thought its ob- Mject was a good one. and he believed that her Majesty's Ministers would introduce such improvements into it in Com mittee as would render it much better than it now was. If those improvements were not introduced, they would be voting their money for purposes which, year after year, would prove less and less satisfactory, but he believed that these improve ments would be introduced, and he should, for these reasons, vote for the second reading. Lord MAHON said that he should vote for the second reading, but only because he expected great improvements would be introduced into it in Committee, and if those im provements were not made, he should give his most strenuous opposition to it on the third reading. In 1839, his negative against the motion of that day had been overcome by a majo rity of only two, and he still thought that the sentiments which he then expressed that no college could be complete without religious instruction had been proved by experience to be correct. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of the Home Department had said that the pupils could obtain reli gious instruction on each day, but was it their inten tion that these colleges were to be schools for the towns only in which they were placed, or institutions for the provinces in which they were situated ? 1 f the latter, then certainly the argument that he had used on this point fell to the ground. He was ready to move the addition of this principle himself, or he was ready to assist any other amendment. Without the addition of the principle of religion, instruction would lose the best of its characteristics, and become almost useless. They might, indeed, enlarge the mind and refine the intellect, but they would not correct the heart. He trusted, therefore, that her Majesty's Government would consent to introduce this principle into:their measure—to introduce a principle without which it appeared to him it would prove injurious rather than beneficial. Mr. A. HOPE said, that so'far did he differ from what his Noble Friend who had just sat down had stated, that he hoped the measure would be so amended in Committee, but he believed that it was so faulty that no amendment could render it available for the purpose for which it was professedly intended, and it apparently was only the opening of a little alnico, but it was the first step towards the introduction of that system from the Continent which rendered them, in his opinion, so inferior to the universities of this country. The Government entered office on the tacit understanding that they would conduct the affairs of the country on the principles of Conservatism, and that they would uphold the Constitution in all its integrity. Yet in 1845 they had pro mulgated a measure similar to the one introduced by the Whig Government of 1825, which they had patched up in stead of re-constructing. He concluded by expressing his intention of giving his most strenuous support to the amend ment of the Hon. Member for Newport. Mr. M. MILN ES explained that when he referred tothe uni versities of Oxford and Cambridge, he wished it to be under stood that they were in a more efficient state than they had been for years before. Mr. V. STEWART thought that some kind cf education was loudly called for in Ireland. Means had been taken to give the higher classes of that country an efficient education, whilst the education of the middle and lower classes had b e en te comparatively neglected. He gave his best than ks would ul ts havethe Go vernment, for having adopted a measure wh ich effect of facilitating the progress of educatio h ni t n w that country • that could e and it was one which he thought was the es devised under the present circumstances of Ireland. It would have been folly to have recommended a system of education at variation with the opinions of the clergy, who had great influence over their flocks. It was recommended by some that a system of mixed education should be adopted ; but i t hat were so, the Protestant College on one side, and the Roman Catholic clergy on the other, would oppose each other, and much of that good feeling which subsisted between this country and Ireland would be very much diminished in conse quence. The opinion held by many of the Bishops, that if the education to be adopted was to be a mix' d one, that they should have the appointment of all the professors was absurd With respect to an assertion which had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford (Sir R. H. Inglis) that he understood attempts had been made to subvert the national schools of Ireland, he referred to the ease of the Rev. Mr. APNee, who was censured by the Rev. Dr. Davey, the Bishop of Waterford, in an assembly of clergymen, because on visiting the seaside he interested himself in a school which was at- tended by a great number of Protestants which the resident clergyman had neglected, because he differed with the system of education which was pursued in it, and did not think it his duty to attend it, and the children were consequently rendered liable to be educated in a faith different from that of their parents. Mr. HAMILTON would be sorry to give a silent vote upon an occasion like the present; but he agreed with the Noble Lord who had moved the amendment, that no system deserved the name of education that was not based upon religion. He, therefore, could not absolutely give his assent to every part of the measure of the Government; but, nevertheless, he agreed with the Hon. Member who had just sat down, that there were large masses of the Irish people attached to no particular religious sect, who would be glad to take advantage of these colleges, in the event of their being sanctioned by Parliament. Great efforts had lately been made to promote education amongst the lower classes of the Irish people, but no attempt had yet been made for establishing a system of education amongst the middle classes of that country. It ap peared to him that education always descended, and never ascended, and as this Bill would give the blessings of education to a class who had hitherto been unable to avail them selves of the existing system of education, he was not inclined to oppose its second reading. He could not, however, say thus much without at the same time regretting that some provisions had not been introduced into the Bill to provide for the religious instruction of those young persons who were to be educated at those colleges. The religious objection to the Bill might, however, be easily obviated by Government extending those elauses which sanctioned the voluntary endowment of theolo gical professors in these colleges. Captain B. OSBORNE could not understand how Hon. Members who supported national education could oppose this Bill, because, in his opinion, it rather extended that prin ciple than otherwise. The real question, however, at issue he apprehended to be the propriety of esta blishing a system of mixed education and secular instruction; but he thought the arguments which had been applied to a mixed education could be as forcibly urged against the social intercourse, in after life, of those who professed different re ligious opinions. There were certain clauses in this Bill to which he was strongly opposed. He alluded to those clauses which placed the power of appointing professors to those col leges in the hands of the Government, for it appeared to him that the Home-office was desirous of possessing as much pa tronage as the Horse Guards. He regretted that he was obliged to give the Government only a meagre sup port; but while they were legislating upon this subject, they ought at once to establish some central institu tion, like Trinity College, for the education of youth of all sects and classes in Ireland, who might distinguish themselves in one of those provincial establishments. Mr. GL ADSTONE agreed with the Noble Lord the Mem ber for the City of London, that this measure was an imperfect one, but in the present existing state of things in Ireland, where the religious opinions and sentiments of the people were so much divided, how was it possible that a measure of this kind could ever approximate to perfection, much less reach it? He was not one of those who would join in forcing even a more perfect measure than this upon the Catholic clergy and laity against their wish, and it would be monstrous that on account of a mere majority of English voices to refuse the tender of that which would be considered a boon in Ireland. The Noble Lord stated that he thought it desirable that the Catholic Prelates should be consulted on this measure, and stated that Archbishop Murray could give most valuable advice to the Government. There might or might not have been such com munication, as far as he knew ; whether it had taken place or not, or whether it was desirable or not that such consultation should take place, he was not prepared to say, but it was his opinion that very considerable weight should attach itself to the wishes and views of the Irish people. With regard to the question of consultation with Roman Catholic prelates, he should express an opinion a little beyond that of the Noble Lord in the course of a recent debate on the question of religion as relating to Ireland. He thought that the Noble Lord the Member for Newark (Lord John Manners) adverted to it as advantageous that a diplomatic relation should exist between this country . and the see of Rome. He was of that opinion also, for the original prohibition of that relationship was not a pro hibition on religious grounds, but on religious pounds.— (Cries of " Hear, hear.") It may be said that that relationship ought to have been renewed long ago. He agreed that it was rather late now, but in any measure like the one now under discussion, he thought that it was most unhappy, for a great many reasons, that they should continue to refuse the esta blishment of a diplomatic relation and ordinary good feeling which existed not only between Christians but all civilised nations, and which ought to exist with the Pope in particular, on account of the religious position which he held. He only referred to the fact that a diplomatic relation had been in existence, and that it existed now, though unavowed, in con sequence of the absolute necessity which a successful Govern ment thought themselves unable to resist. It was said, and with a great appearance of truth, that on the question of edu cation there ought tobe a communication between the Govern ment and the heads who represent the Roman Catholic people. Archbishop Murray might, for instance, when consulted, give the very best advice, and with the greatest ability, but his authority was not supreme ; it would be liable to be overruled by orders from the Court of Rome. The English Govern ment would then be in the position of having bound themselves to persons not of the highest authority. The Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, made al lusions to the University of Oxford, but he was of opinion that his information was rather incorrect. It was 14 or 15 years ago since he left that University, and fell, perhaps, under the same imputation as the Right Hon. Baronet; but he did not think that at that time religious instruction was insuffi cient. Before they became graduates in that university, they were obliged to attend lectures on divinity. The great bulk of instruction was given in the private rooms of the tutors, and addressed to their particular pupils ; and that, perhaps, was the most valuable instruction. That continued while they were undergraduates. As respected knowledge in religion, he did not think that there was not an insufficient stock afforded when he considered that those who received it were about to be Members of that House, or who were to be country gen tlemen, or lawyers, or persons filling the various relations of life. In point of theory he was of opinion that the measure now before the House had fallen far short of measures which had been formerly granted. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) then referred to the system adopted atthe London University, and to the efforts of Dr. Arnold to obtain the in troduction of some amount of examination on the texts of Scrip ture, which should be common to all Christiana. He (Dr. Arnold) was not prepared, however, to admit Jews, but the plan now intended was to admit Jews. The different stages of Christianity were important to be known to the historical student, whether Heathen or Christian. He might be told that that system was not as fit for Ire land as it was for England but he should sav that it was more fit for Ireland than England, because the religious distinctions in that country drove them to a greater extremity; and because the dangers of that system were more likely to arise in this country, where the religious discipline of religious communities was lax and weak, than in a country where indi viduals were under personal religious discipline. The Right Hon. Gentleman then referred bsek to the middle ages, when it was not compulsory upon the students at Oxford or Cam bridge, as members of those Universities, to attend lectures or worship, because there was no daily worship. The system of lecturing was no doubt a re igious system, because it was admi. nistered in a religious spirit, but it was when those univer sities became colleges that the religious principle was applied. The inns or halls in which the students were then received were originally nothing more than boarding-houses, and (lid not at all approach to the character of colleges. He would beg to, state, that those Hon. Members who opposed the system adopted by the Government, were only enforcing their own private opinions.---( Hear, hear.) The policy which induced the Government to bring forward this measure was the same policy as that on which was founded the grant to Maynooth. He (Mr. Gladstone) gave his assent to this measure, not be cause it accorded with his own private opinions, but because it was likely to be acceptable and useful to the people of Ireland, and was in consonance with the dictates of society. He saw many objections to the plan of the Noble Lord, and he thought the object he had in view would not be gained by it. He considered the defects that had been complained of might be got over by voluntary contributions. The Bill contained one principle of religions instruction, that was, providing rooms in which lectures might be delivered. He thought secular education without religion was had, but that was not the question before the House. There were other points in which the question might be regarded. His Noble Friend the Member for Newark had said, why not establish a system of Roman Catholic education? Why if that was done they would be obliged to establish a system of Trinitarian edu cation, and perhaps a system of Arianism itself, and when he looked at the alternative, he thought they would be doing far more injury by adopting the plan of his Noble Friend than that brought forward by the Government. Both on the ground of principle and practicability be thought the plan of the Noble Lord far inferior to that proposed by her Majesty's Ministers. After having passed the Maynooth Bill, he thought they would be deserving of the reprehension of their constituents, if they preferred the plan o f th e N o bl e L or d to that of the Government. He did not apprehend that there was such difficulty in electing professors as had been anticipated by some Honourable Members. The Right Honourable Gen tleman concluded by stating that amid a choice of difficulties he should vote for the second reading of the Bill, in the firm be lief that if its provisions were carried out good would result from it. Mr. WYSE did not think that sufficient information had been given to the House of the manner in which education was to be carried on under the Sill. He was anxious that universities should not be turned into mere grammar schools. He admired that part of the plan which would tend to open the only university they had in Ireland to all. He had considered this measure for many years, and though he had some objec tions to the details of the measure, he was as he had alway been favourable to the principle which would give a mixed system of education, because be believed it would lead to the best re sults. The recognition of a system of academical education was a great step gained in that House. He thought education ought to be based on religion and morality, and the question was, would the Bill have that effect. If these colleges were intended, he presumed they were, to he not merely colleges for education, similar to that taught in the Universities, but what he considered of much more importance, to be colleges for the education of the middle classes in all the industrial branches, they ought to take steps to secure as many students as possible, at as cheap a rate as was consistent with the maintenance of the establishments. The most important part of the question was the appointment of the professors themselves. He thought it was of infinite importance, not merely in reference to the colleges themselves, but with refe rence to the whole march of Government with reference to the social concord of the entire country, that if they were to have professors in these colleges, whatever their talent ar!dac qeirements might be, they ought to be abovee Bill which suspicion. He could not give his assent to that portion of the eno placed the power of nominating those professors excl usive l y be in the Crown. Any precedent for such a proceeding cou found in l any of the Universities n nd e o d f nn objectio ns England and which Scotland. Ilis views of the Bill were founded woul d with t this r c a o a n d s y i d t e n r e g d applic h able e n t o t t i n t ointheitrs p p r r i n e present e s s t n a n t n e n . ec H te e d measure as a mere matter of education. There would be no hope of religious spiritual equality in Ireland, unless you told the people that the religious feelings of their youth should not be prejudiced in any way. He would not wish for an exclu sively Roman Catholic College, or for an exclusively Presby terian College, but let it beequally free from religious influences of every description. As regarded Maynooth, it was proper that its fundamental principles should remain unaltered, it was solely appropriated for the education of Roman Catholic priests, and to the furtherance of that object let it be con tinued. He could not admit that the Crown ought to interfere with the regulations of that University. The present pro posed system of education would not admini.ter satisfactorily to the requirements of the people. Whatever scheme was founded on just and liberal principles for the education of the Irish nation, should receive his most cordial su ppor t , but the, establishment of su c h system must leave ove n th e a d van t ages to be derived from it, equally, fully, and fairly to all classes of the coml.' unit y. Mr. ACKLANI) observed that be would shortly review the means by which it was proposed to carry the Academical Edu cation measure. Hitherto no Member who had spoken on the subject had expressed his unqualified approbation of it.— ( Ilear.) The measure had been so much dissected and pulled to pieces by different Hon. Gentlemen, that only a bare stump remained. There was a great difficulty in dealing with the question as regarded the assumption of an Hon. Member, who concluded that the appointments to the professorships should be placed distinctly on a religious footing. The result would be that persons going into those colleges should have a religious education without one farthing having been paid for that purpose, With regard to the principles on which the Bill was founded, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department had quoted from the report published in 1836, that It was intended to frame the Bill on " sound prin ciples," it had been brought forward as resting upon " souni principles." When Members came down to the Houseand told they were going to deal with sound principle it would he a visable to consider on what those principles rested. He con tended that educational instruction should be left entirely to the willing selection of the recipients, and not thrust upon them ; and he further considered it a perfect delusion to at tempt any scheme of education in Ireland, without consulting the interests and opinions of the Roman Catholic clergy there. They will not receive any measuse which they could not adopt without suspicion. The Bill had met with the unanimous re fusal of the Irish Bishops to adopt it. For these reasons, not regarding it as a measure contradictory of principles long and consistently entertained, because he believed that the Govern. ment consistently introduced it as in consonance with the ne cessity of the times, and rendered compulsory by the pressure from without, but considering it in theory and practice, for they had the experience of the Scotch, Belfast, and London colleges, though the latter he scarcely considered in point —es sentially impolitic, he should, though reluctantly, record his vote against the second reading of the Bill. In entering this opposition it might be retorted that he should proposed a better expedient ; though he did not assent to that proposition, he was sot unprepared to give a sketch of what he considered would be a preferable, if not a benefice! system. He would suggest that an honest and fair attempt be made by the Government to induce parties well inclined in Ireland to unite for the benefit of their respective Churches, and volun tarily to establish colleges and religious academical institutions. Such a system he believed would, under the sanction of a fos tering Government, prosper in itself, as withdrawing dissen sions and conciliating acrimonious feelings, and at the same time affording a feasible means of education and religion. In the absence, however, of anything approaching to such a prin ciple, he could not assent to the present measure, although, at the earns time, he protested against the conduct attributed to the Government.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. MORE O'FERRALL regarded the principle of the Bill as wholly dissimilar from that of the national education. In the latter the pupil remained under the surveillance of his parents, and was by them trained up in the religion they desired and professed ; but in the measure now proposed the students were wholly divested of authority or control. On political and religious considerations, therefore, he felt it his duty to give his vote against the second r ea di ng o f t h e Bill. He regretted, therefore, that he could not vote for the second reading of the Bill. After a few words from Capt. BERNAL OSBORNE in explanation, Sir R. PEEL said, until he had heard the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman he thought whatever differences of opinion might prevail on the details of the measure that there was a general concurrence in one sentiment—if the Govern ment could overcome the difficulties which had arise from different religious creeds—(Hear, hear)—and could ex tend academical education in Ireland, that it would be a great boon.—( Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend doubted whether that necesssity existed, and whether the institutions would effect the good that w as i n t en d e d . L ooking to the population, he might now be assured that they could overcame the difficulties which they had to encounter—that, looking to the state of Ire land—to the extent of the population —an ample provision for academical education was called for as much as at Oxford, Cam bridge, King's College, and other institutions in this country. They had undertaken the education of the lower orders. They had 400 institutions iu the country, with the pupils from the age of 12 to 14, the most important period of all whose educa tion was to be superintended. They could not send them to Scotland, and the question then was, were they to have esta blishments in Munster and Connaught or not, with the means of education? He would read an extract from a work of great interest to all who had anything to do with the means of edu cation. The work was the composition of an eminent profes sor, Dr. Kane. It had been necessary to establish a geolo. gical professor, and they had appointed him because flits't had a strict confidence in him, and had no fear of the fulfilment of his duty. This was the person whom they had appointed to instruct the whale people of Ireland, and they did not think that because he was a Roman Catholic he would pervert the office he had been ap pointed to fill for sectarian purposes. What was the opinion of Dr. Kane, given long before the establishment of those aca demical institutions was contemplated? What, he said, was the opinion of Dr. Kane with respect to the resources of Ire land and the means by which those resources were to be deve loped? He gave his opinion in the concluding chapters of his work. In the course of those observations he stated that his impression was, that the want of capital was the bugbear of Ireland. What Ireland wanted was a development of the industrial energies of the country. This would develope the whole of the resources of Ireland.— ( Hear, hear.) It was this which led to the institution of the collegiate establishments. This was an answer to his Hon. Friend the Member for Somersetshire, when he told him that the instructive institutions of Ireland were to be founded on the principle that the instruction of the lower classes was to be confided to men who were in the confidence of the people. Among the youths who were there educated they were to give all the prestige of their early years, and to mix in the world with the impression that they were to mix with those with whom their early years were present. Supposing they had altogether laid aside the question of religious education, still there were points which well deserved the observation of the House and peculiar to the country of which they were speak ing. They could not send the pupils to England or to Scot land, and he thought that the best plan would be to institute academical institutions in Ireland. But what was the religious portion of the religious orders in that country, and what was their position with regard to the State. What was to be done with those professors of a moral and scientific character. The whole of the youths of the country were to be instructed, and according to his Honourable Friends, there was to be a difference between the Roman Catholic and the Protestant. The Presbyterians might make the same claim, and what would be the consequence of the principle which his Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford ( Sir R. H. Inglis adopted, and who styled the subject one of immense godlessness. There were Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Pres byterian prejudices to grapple with in this matter. There was no prescription of fifty years, as was the case with regard to Maynooth, There was here no awful delusion to be advocated in the name of religion. He was aware that he hod stated the substance of the speech of his Honourable Friend the Member for Oxford—not the speech which he had de livered, but the speech which he would have delivered if he had bees apprised of all the circumstances.—(Laaghter.) The original proposal was that Government should only par tially contribute to those institutions, and the grand juries of the different counties should provide for these institutions, and the contributions of Government were to depend upon the extent of the voluntary contributions. By the present measure, how ever. Government bound themselves to erect buildings and establish professorship., and it was not unreasonable to call upon the parents of the chiidren to be educated at these col leges to attend to their religious instruction. What was the religious instruction given at Harrow ? Was it done by a master giving a morning lecture on theology ? No ; the course was this—the parents of the children ascertain the moral cha racter of certain persons who act as tutors at Harrow, and if their inquiries prove satisfactory the parents commit their children to the care of the tutor, and invest him with parenta ]authority. Now was this much better ? Was it not more effectual than establishing a religious system of education, and why should not the same course betaken at these Colleges' It was the course taken at the institution in Liverpool am. Bristol, where it had worked well ; and why should not the same system be extended to Ireland ? But Parliament ha,' already sanctioned the extension of this system to Ireland, for in 1810 Parliament sanctioned the establishment of an institution which was called the Belfast Academical Institu tion. That institution affords classical and mercantile educa tion to youths, disconnected from all religious instructions. Dr. Crolly had borne his strong testimony in favour of those institutions, and he would pledge the experience of this distin guished prelate against the predictions of those Hon. Members who said the religious education of the youths to be brought up at these colleges would be neglected. Dr. Crolly distinctly stated the religious education of the pupils in the Belfast Insti tution were strictly attended to, and a due and proper regard was paid to the various religious principles of all who were edu cated at that establishment. Now, this was Irish experience, and he—setting it against the predictions which had been, in dulged in by some Honourable Members might add, that the only objection Dr. Crolly had against the Bel fast Institution was that it possessed professors of theo logy and divinity. Now, nothing had snore surprised him than the opi n ion of the Irish Ronan Catholic prelates. He had read the documents they had published on this measure, and nothing had filled him with so much surprise. Was it not monstrous to suppose that a youths professing Roman Catholic principles could not he instructed in theology except by a Ro man Catholic tutor. Now, this appeared to him to be really absurd ; but were not the youth belonging to the Established Church placed upon the same footing as those professing Roman Catholic principles ? But independently of this was it likely that a professor of anatomy, after describing the miracles of the working of the human body ; after describing how every artery was connected with the fibres of the human frame, would terminate his anatomical lecture with an attempt to undermine the religious principles of his pupils. He could not conceive it possible that a gentleman holding the high station of professor of the sublime sciences of anatomy and astronomy should take advantage of the p ower h e possessed over his pupils to turn their minds again s t t h ose re ligious principles in which they had been brought up.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that the plan would b e i ncomp l ete, unless these colleges were incorporated with each other. The union of these institutions into one university would be preferable to the giving to each college the character of an university. If the plan worked well, and met with confidence, some time hence would be the period for considering whether then they should be incorporated, and what power the universi ties should possess with respect to the giving of degrees, &c. They did not make any declaration then on that subject. The Crown would have the power even without the aid of Parliament of incorporating the Uni versities, which would, of course, be the ease if the colleges gave satisfaction. The measure was at present objected to, because it did not comprise every thing which ni!ght here after be connected with it. These were the principles . on c w i r h e i a ch m s t t h a e n y e e c s a m o f e l t r o e a t a n d e , a c a o d n e t l h u e s i p o o n a , t i c o o n n i f d t e h r e i n po g p a t h i a e t peculiar circumstances of Ireland, and the position of the population, that they had a better chance of making that system of religious d ed ia u t n e a ly tio c n on m u o r r a e t a h c a c a ep i t f a t lo h le ey to w t e h r o e se to wh k o a m ad i a t ep m ar a a y te m i n h r e e olic i o m g m ea - 1 professors, or professors belonging to the different creeds of those who may resort to those colleges. His Hon. Friend said that no system of education could answer un less it was founded on a religious basis, but lie should admit that religious instruction should ema nate from the Church of England. There were objec tions made by a high party in the Roman Catholic Church, but still notwithstanding these objections, no t w i t h standing the opposition which by some portion of the laity was urged against this plan, he (Sir Robert Peel) yet had reason to think that there was a very considerable portion of intelligent, arid respectable men of a ll p ersuas i ons w h o were disposed grate fully to accept the proposal of the Government, and they trusted that experience would falsify the predictions which were urged against the measure. If they could carry on the system which prevailed in the national schools, if they could unite the youth of Ireland in one common system of education, he be lieved that they would go far to soften the asperities which oa account of religious differences existed in social life in Ireland, they would alleviate the condition of the youth of Ireland, they would lay the foundation of the development and improvement of those natural and material resources vvieh which that country abounds, which had not been developed less from the want of capital than from the want of that industrial and scientific knowledge which, combined with an instruction in religion, it was the object. of the Government to bestow. Air. M. J. O'CONNELL said that he should say a few words in explanation of his differing from those with whims he had both private and public tics. His English education hod enabled him to SO' sisal they, the Roma) Catholics. hail no thing iu the way of undermining to fear front their Protestant fellow-countrymen. Plc was sorry to tee that the present Rill was brought in in its present skeleton shape ; they learned snore and more with respect to that from every speech that was made on the opposite side. There were one or two points which he felt strongly opposed to, and which he would oppose on a future occasion if they were not amended. He was allud ing to the points contained in proviso in the 14th clause. He thought there could be no opposition to something of this kind, that persons when they entered the college should state what were the religious opinions they held. He thought there Hon. Baronet la could be no objection to that. He thought in endowing chapel i awilhoaltet,he withthe Right alterations had endeavoured to suggest, the Government measure was a ds aid. there e was a thought great upon dealon thein good one. He thought the Government should not have the power of appointing the professors, but as things now were ht