The Sun. — London, England, 1839-03-07 00:00:00

yrairutn rep or t progress an d as k l eave to s i t aain. flet• 'a few observations from Mr. Barneby, Mr. EGERTON trusted the Hon. Member for 1449 ex would withdraw his mo ti on f or re p or ti ng pro gr-40s ; if he did not, he should feel compelled to vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Wor cestershire. Mr. TUMBLE considered that the House was dis cussing a clause that was not now before it. Lord DUNGANNON was decidedly opposed to there being a Board, but as it was the intention of the lion. Member to frame a new clause, he thought that the House ought to come to a decision upon the question now before it. After a few observations from Mr. DARBY, strangers were ordered to withdraw, but the question of reporting progress was negatived without a division. Strangers were again ordered to withdraw, and the House divided upon the question whether the clause should be expunged or not, when there appeared— For the Clause 63 Against it Majority in favour of the Clause--20 Another division then took place upon the question —Whether the Divisions under the Bill s ho u ld b e cc extensive with those of the Poor-law Bill, when the numbers were— For the moti)n 4O Against it.., 66 ..--26 Majority against it The House then resumed. MAYNOOTH COLLEGE. Lord DUNGANNON said that in consequence of the absence of the Noble Lord, the Member for Bath, who was to have seconded the motion, he would postpone his motion relative to Maynooth, till Frilay next, when he would bring it forward on Com mittee of Supply. Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the Noble Lord would not move it on Supply, when he could bring it forward on any other occasion. Lord DUNGANNON said, in the discharge of what lie bc:lieved to be his duty, he should bring forward 'he motion on Friday as he had stated. SUPPLY. The House then went into a Committee of Supply. On the first vote being proposed, Sr GEORGE CLERK said he would tike that - PPortiraity of replying to the observations made by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, the Secretary to .the Admiralty, on Monday night. That lion. Gentleman :ad not succeeded in removing the impression on his (S:r G. Clerk's) mind, that the state of the naval force of this country was not in a satisfactory condition. He had attempted toprove that the Navy must be necessarily in an e'Ticient state at present, because the estimates this yell- exceeded in amount those which had been pro posed for several previous years. How, asked the Hon. Ge itlemin, could the present Board of Admiralty be ..reesed of neglect when they asked for a vote exceed g in amount any that has been asked for the pre- 'ding years. There was this fallacy running throughout the argument of the Honourable - , Gentlemen with regard to this subject ; he had assumed that because only a certain amount of force had been required at any one time during preceding years, therefore only a proportionate amount of force was nk,-c , :.ssary to be kept up now. The Hon. Gentle / man had said that the reduction had not been made by the present Government, but was entirely owing to the ill - fudged parsimony of the preceding Tory Government. He (Sir George Clerk) had, on more than one occa sion, tied the honour of bringing forward the Navy Estimates, and he had never at those times been ac cused of an ill.juded parsimony. Whatever might be the amount he had proposed for men or for stores, the Hon. Member for Kilkenny had always been consistent is proposing a redaction upon the amount required for either of those purposes. In the year 1835,which the Hen. Gentlemen opposite was sn anxious to contrast with the present year as regarded this question, the number of men prodo:;ed to be voted for the service of the Royal Marines was 36,500 ; upon this vote the Hon. Member for Kilkenny had proposed a reduction of 5,000 men. It was perfectly clear that the amount of Naval force required at any particular time must de pend entirely upon what might be considered to he the exlgenci€L; of the State, and that what might have been insufficient in 1835 might appear extravagant in 1839. THrefore there was no force in the argument which had been repeated over and over again by the Hon. Gentleman opposite that these reductions had been rtesdo by the Government of the Hon. Member for T 1111VOrth —( Hear, hear)—because that reduction ini,slit have been fully justified by the circumstances in which the country was at that time placed. His Noble Friend, who had formerly brought forward those estimates, who was then in the House, would be more I able than himself (Sir G. Clerk) to state the reasons for those reductions should it become necessary to rue that point, and in the succeeding year the Noble Lord the Secretary of State had sail that the vote of the preceding year had not been dispropor tionate. The Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty had quoted, with reference to this question, the expres- Sion which had been used by a Noble Earl who was at that time First Lord of the Admiralty. Now the substance of what had been stated by that Noble 1 Earl was this, that when he came.into office he found in the preceding year the number of men who had been voted amounted to 27,500 ; of this number 17,300 had been voted as seamen ; but on coming into office he had found that the number of seamen actually employed amounted only to 15,500, and seeing nothing in the cir cumstances of the country, with regard to our foreign 1 relations, which seemed to render any increase neces• nary, he was content to ask for a vote for the same num ber of men as had been found sufficient in the preceding 3 year. Was that amount insufficient ? In order to answer this question, let Hon. Members look to the re turn of the number of ships in commission on the Ist of December, 1834, when the Government of the Hon. Member for Tamwnrth came into office ; and the number of ships in commission on the Ist of December, 1836, when the Navy was under the con troul of the Hon. Gentleman opposite. They would find that on the Ist of December, 1834, the number of sea men employed amounted to 15,500, and the number of vessels in commission to 160, of which 11 were ships of the line. In 1836 the number of ships in commission amounted to 167, of which 12 were ships of the line, ' besides several frigates of a large class ; and in bringing forward the estimates for the year 1837, the Hon. Gentleman had taken great credit for proposing that the number of seamen should only be 15,502, so that the number of seamen voted exceeded those employed under Earl de Grey by two only. He must say that these grounds of defence were not satisfactory. The amount of the vote to be proposed to the Committee must depend entirely upon the position of the country with regard to other maritime powers. He would say that, with regard to this question, he did not consider that the responsibility rested so much on the Board of Admiralty as on the Cabinet, because the necessity for the employ ment of the naval force, must be decided by them. These objections would indeed apply to the First Lord of the Admiralty with greater force, because beine. a Member of th e C a bi net, h e h a d an opportunity of conferring with his colleagues on the subject, and stating his rea sons to them. The Members of the Government col lectively, and not the Board of Admiralty, were the persons who were obnoxious to the charges which had been brought forward on this subject. The Foreign Secretary was th e person who was more immediately r!sponsible, as it was on the view which he took of the situation of this country with regard to Foreign Powers that the dispositio n of the naval forces must in a great measure be regulated. In 1836 the Hon. Member op posite had stated, or rather had hinted, at reasons which had induced the House to surmise that there existed a necessity for the presence of an increased naval force,_in South America, the West Indies, and elsewhere, for the protection of our commerce. The Honourable Member corroborated his view of having a large force ; there was no difference of opinion as to the necessity of making that large addition to our naval force, in order that its moral effect might be aug mented. It was a matter of great regret that the state of their foreign relations required in the Mediterranean a squadron which must be considered as a war esta blishment. The House would recollect, that at the time the lion. and Gallant Admiral (Codrington) was in the Mediterranean, although their position was at that period critical, it was not thought necessary to send so large a force as ten sail of the line there. He believed the whole force under the Gallant Admiral's command as a permanent force did not exceed three sail of the line. If unfortunately the foreign policy of the Noble Lord at the head of Foreign Affairs, if the result of all pro tocols and diplomacy was to excite the jealousy of the other maritime nations of the Mediterranean, it was upon him and not upon the Board of Admiralty that the responsibility of the great augmentation of their naval force in that part of the word, and which had deprived other stations of their proper protection was to devolve. If the portfolio of the Noble Lord exhi bited nothing but distrust and jealousy of the power of Great Britain on the part of other countries, it was certainly a matter of great regret. But to the Government having placed the country in that position, he feared the system must be carried on, and the estimates in creased. If it now appeared to him (Sir G. C.) that very inadequate provision had been made for the protection of the harbours and shores of Great Britain, he trusted the Hon. Member for Kilkenny would not say that he was urging the House to a more extravagant vote ; because the Hon. Member was as much to blame as others if the country was placed. in that position. He would remind the Hon. Member that when the attention of the House had been drawn to the state of their Foreign affairs by Hon. Members on his (Sir G. C.'s) side of the House, he had never given them the least support. On the contrary he had given support to that Government which had brought the country into the predicament which rendered that treat additi ona l expense necessary. He was sorry the noble Lo r d t h e Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs `vas not in his place. It appeared as if he thought his duty there a sinecure. —(Hear, hear.) He was very 'eldotri seen in that House, and he regretted that on so "'Portant a question as the Navy Estimates the Noble Lord had nut thought it worth his while to come down to the House. Hon. Members would recollect that the 1 question had been brought forward by the Government it self on a day which was extremely inconvenient, and when great questions were not generally introduced. If the Go vernment thought that the state of the'r relations with the great maritime powers of the,Mediterranean required the appearance of a large force, did they imagine that the people of England would forget that these nations had fleets elsewhere—did they suppose that other coun tries did not look to the amount of force which that country had in its ports, or cruising about t!.s shores. If it were found necessary to have so large a force in the Mediterranean, might not the country participate in the apprehensions or the Hon. Member for Birming ham that it would be prudent to have a considerable , force in the vicinity of the British shores in case of the appearance of a foreign fleet in the Channel ? He had before him a statement of the number of ships in com mission on the Ist December, 1838, at the home stations of Portsmouth, Plymouth, and Sheerness, and he found that there was one ship of a first-rate at each of these three ports. When he turned to the next page to see what state of preparation they were in for sea, it. turned out that it would require the united crews of all the three ships to enable one of them to put to sea.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear.") In the next column he found that there was not a ship of the second rate on the home station ; of the third rate there was none ; of the fourth rate, none ; of the fifth rate, none ; of the sixth rate, none ; and of sloops of war, none. He found that there were no steam vessels of war on the home station, but there were 6 gun brigs at Portsmouth, and 2 gun brigs at Sheerness. It appeared therefore that these small gun boats were the whole force which that country could produce against the appearance of the fleet of any other nation on the shores of that country. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—That was on the Ist of December, 1838. Sir GEORGE CLERK admitted that that might have occurred by_accident on the Ist of Dec. ,' but if he referred to the Ist of Dec., 1837, the force was precisely the same, the only difference being that there was then five gun boats, and the whole addition to the naval force on the home station, in the course of a year, was one gun boat.—(Hear, hear.) He asked Honourable Gentlemen, supposing an • emergency did arise, what means had they to get a squadron for the defence of their coasts? Formerly they used to have guard ships with half fhcir complement of men, and with their stores, and guns, and sails on hostel, ready to put to sea at a moment's notice ; and they had facilities from the Coast Blockade Depot to man these ships on a very short notice.— (Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman, the Secretary of the Admiralty, had told them that he considered it unnecessary to have any ships in their habours. He seemed to think it enough to have one or two fast sailing steam-boats to send to the %Vest Indies, or the Mediterranean, or North America, in order to pick up a squadren and assemble them. He did hear it stated somewhere that they had nine dis pwahle ships of the line for home service. He asked where were they ? There were none finless they sent all over the world to collect them. Suppose unfortu nately an emergency did arise how were their mer chant ships homeward-bound to be protected from cap ture, if it was necessary in the first instance to collect those ships? He was not singular in supposing that it was necessary to have a large force at the home station, for he should quote to the House as an authority in his favour, the words of a Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) opposite, on the occasion of a large increase. being proposed to their naval force. The Noble Lord said that it would be unadvisable to withdraw from abroad that naval force that was necea sessary for the protection of the foreign trade of the country, and which might also be required on some account arising out of the foreign relations of the country. A multiplicity of contingencies might there arise, and he added that while it was necessary to keep up an effective force in various parts of the world, at the same time our experience of the history of Europe :aught us that we should have a sufficient force to protect the neighbourhood of our shores. This was the opinion of the Right Honourable Secretary of State in the year 1833 ; with that opinion he (Sir G. Clerk) entirely con curred. He said the arguments that were now used, were completely borne out by the Noble Lord then. It. was not for him (Sir G. C.) to speak upon expediency. That was a question which the naval authorities of the Government should form an opinion on, from the in formation officially in their possession. When Sir George Colburn was before the Committee in 1838, the present Hon. Member for Kilkenny asked what he thought ought to be the precise amount of peace complement for this country. The reply of the Gallant Officer was, that he could not state exactly, but that if this country was at perfect peace with foreign powers, not apprehending any risk of war, or any misinterpretation of treaties, we should require no force abroad whatever, and if there were no pirates, we should require no protection, for our trade almost depended upon the state of our foreign relations. Being next asked whether the nine line-of battle ships we had then at home were fit to be immediately sent to sea, and had their full complements of men, his answer' was, that the ships were ready but the mea were not ; all the guard ships having had their complements reduced from 600 to 30C men. In proof of the state of the ships, he added that if the Ministt:rs were determined to send a force to Portugal, the ships were ready within three days after their deter mination. When he was asked if the ships were not ready, and the men were to be procured, what length of time it might take to prepare, he r e pli e d th e requisite time would not be more than six months in such a state of things.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Now he would ask the Honourable Gentlemen on the other side, whether that information was at all satisfactory to them under the present circumstances ?--(Hear, hear.) Having reduced our guard-ships, and not having pro vided even shadow of a substitute, we were now in a situation, that if we required to send ships immediately to sea, it would, according to the opinion Of the most distinguished authorities, require six months to get them ready. It might be said that the whole of them were in ordinary. but we were not in an adequate state to send first-rates to sea, within any moderate time, when more over, their complements were reduced from 900 to 750 men. Sir G. Colburn when asked whether it would be possible with prudence to reduce the force of our home station, replied, certainly not. It would be exposing the country to great risk, if we had not at least, as we then had, nine guard ships, though only half manned, ready for sea at a moment's notice. Referring to the comparative wisdom and economy of having ships in ordinary as now, instead of those guard ships, he would ask the Hon. Member for Kilkenny would not the expense of bringing them forward now be very much increased, while the time of preparation would be much prolonged ? No doubt we would be forced to offer ()Teeter pay to the men, and there would be a great difficulty in procuring men by any means. If a w ar was to arise under such circumstances the enemy would, during the six months which we should occupy in pre paration, be enabled to capture all our merchant-ships, and force their crews into their service. —(Hear, hear.) Now he would ask the House was this a state of things that ought to be continued ?—(Hear, hear.) It might be said, in reply to him, that our stores were abundant, the other departments of our naval service had been improved, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer might say that as this was no time to press upon him for money for the defence of our shores a risk might be run, and our disposable ships might be sent to foreign stations. Such might be the reasons for a temporary absence of defence for our shores, but he would ask the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wood), and the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, how long it would be prudent to continue so ? —(Hear, hear.) He would remind them that foreign Powers were accurately informed of the state of our Navy, that our defenceless condition was a great temptation to an attempt at aggression on their part, and that in case of any diplomatical misunderstand ing, one of those Powers might, before we had any practical reason for apprehension, have three or four line of battle ships stationed in one of our ports. —( Heat., hear.) He (Sir George Clerk) felt very strongly upon this question, although he felt his inade quacy to impress it upon the House, but he trusted that as the Board of Admiralty had been for the last six months making great exertions for the im provement of the dock-yard, they would also take care that the vote now before them should enable them to have our harbours well guarded in future ; and lest some blame might rest with the naval departments, here it might be asked, whether they had allocated all the means the Government had at their disposal? The Govern ment of 1835 was blamed for not having, proposed a vote of more than 16,500 men. Now, during the last two years the vote 1001 been 23,965 men, and he would ask whether the Government had employed that force ? It had not. It was deficient 3,000 men in the first year, and 2,000 men last year. Now he would say that if those 2,000 men were raised and placed on board ships then, and not until then, would the Govern ment be relieved from the obloquy it was now exposed to. The Honourable Gentleman in his speech the other night, said that there was always a -difficulty of procuring seamen, when our fo reign trade was in a state of prosperity. He admitted this, and therefore the Board of Admiralty were the more to be blame, in not having a sufficient disposable force immediately within call, for, as in other trades, the number of persons occupied in our mercantile, and fo reign, and royal navies, was not much more than could find employment, therefore the Admiralty should always have a large number of men distributed in active ships, and by transferring and collecting those a beneficial squadron could be manned then, if entirely new crews were to be provided. He entirely concurred with Sir George Colburn, that now the most violent means must be resorted to, indeed our merchant navy must be swept from the channel before a fleet could be suffi ciently manned to meet an emergency. He did believe with the Honourable Gentleman on the other side that we had not fallen from our maritime pre-eminence. That depended upon our commercial marine, and the incre ise of merchant seamen ; and he will very glad to find that the observations made by the Hon. Member for Kendal on the first night of the Session respecting i an increase in those departments, were fully corroborated ' by the Hon. Member for Halifax the other night ; but he would remind the House that of the 200,000 men stated to be in our merchant service, a very great por tion was always abroad. It would therefore be neces sary to impress those in our harbours, if we wanted to get a force ready immediately. In Case of a war we should have to take every seaman out of our homeward bound tt'ade, aad have ten or twelve cruisers immediately in the Channel, or a swarm of the enemy's pri vateers would intercept the cargoes destined for our ports, and make the crews in charge of them prisoners. If it was required on a sudden emergency to fit out nine or ten line of battle ships, instead of doing so in six days, as was done in 1826, they could not do it in six months ; for the difficulty of manning them increased in proportion to the number they had to man. They might man in six days the Powerful, but if five or six were required, they would not find the requisite number of men for three months. Looking merely to the means of providing the crews, they were not in a situation in which it would be prudent to allow the country to remain. With respect to the guard ships, it was said to be expedient to take the crews out of them, but to keep the ships in nearly the same state of preparation—that they should have their lower masts and lower rigging fitted ; but could Hon. Gentlemen opposite shelter themselves un der the regulations which had been issued by his Right Hon. Friend, who first introduced the demonstration ships? They had departed from the position which he had laid down, and reduced them to the condition of ships in ordinary. Sir G. Colburn stated to the com mittee, that in 1787 and 1790, it was necessary to make large naval armaments in consequence of the force hav ing been kept down. Whenever any dispute arose with a foreign nation, it was necessary to make an armament. Therefore, when the difficulties with Spain and Portugal arose, he (Sir George Clerk) was sent for to be consulted as to what preparation might be ne cessary, and his answer was nothing—we have ships ready—we have men on the coast blockade, and when ever you tell me it is necessary to make a movement, I will answer for having twelve sail of the line ready in three days.—(Cheers.) And so it happened. Suppose the Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs should now inform the Gallant Admiral that it was necessary to fit out three or four sail of the line for the West Indies cr the Gulf of Mexico, he should like to know what an swer the Gallant Admiral would make the Foreign Se cretary ? Three months or six months would be neces sary before these ships were ready.—( Hear, hear.) Now as to the state of the stores. It was admitted that great exertions had been made during the past year in the ma nufacture of masts, &c., and it was said that the stores were in a very reduced state, but it was owing to an ill judged parsimony.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Not having the advantage of any official documente, he was obliged to speak from memory, but he would appeal to the Hon. Member for Kilkenny whether the complaint against them bad nor been that they were always accumulating stores.—(Hear, hear.) It that was so they had erred on the safe side. But at the conclusion of the last war, when they had net less than 620 pennants flying, and when 400 ships were dismasted, it was not to be wondered at that there should be a great accumulation of stores. There was a great accumulation of old stores in consequence of various ships having been broken up. Then the Hon. Member had made some obser. vations upon a speech said to have been delivered by a Noble Lord in the other House (the Earl of Hardwicke). He considered that the statements made by the Hon. Member completely bare out the statements of the Noble Lord—(Oh, oh)—at least from what he un. derstood to be the views of that Noble Lord. The First Lord of the Admiralty had asserted that there were thirty sail of the line, for which masts, rigging, anti stores could be provided, and that out of those thirty ships there were thirteen demonstration ships peculiarly ready for sea. But then it has been shown that if the Revenge had been supplied with a mast, one of the thirty vessels must have been deprived of her mast.—(" No, no," from Mr. C. Wood.) Great exertions had been made in oar clock-yards during the administration of the Duke of Wellington, and he thought those persons who had called the attention of the public to the state of our Navy, were deserving of great praise ; and he thought the Hon. Member for Bristol was justified in stating that, much to the credit of his brother, Captain Berkeley, an increase in the comple ments of ships had been speedily determined upon by the Admiralty.—(Hear, hear.) After he had published his state ments—after his ineffectual endeavour to prevail on the Admiralty to exert themselves, he was justified instating his views to the public He wished to call the attention of the Admiralty and the House to the subject of the complements of ships. He trusted the Admiralty would not send a ship to sea without a sufficient nernber of men to manage her, and he denied that the Admiralty had power to alter the rating of any particular ships in commission, as had been done in the case of the Cornwallis, the Wellesley, and the Melville—the two latter being seventy-fours had been marked at 4th rates. He thought it was dangerous to give the Admiralty the power of aft:ring at their discretion the rating of any ship, thereby reducing the complements, and reducing the salaries of the officers. What was the rating of the Cornwallis ? She had got now the same peace complement as the other seventy-fours, but had been again altered from a fourth rate to a third rate. The Admi ralty thus exercised a capricious power that had never been at tempted to be exercised by any Board of Admiralty before.—(hear, hear, from Admiral Adams.) True they were armed Cu flute for transports, but that was a case especially provided for by an Order in Council and the Admiralty had 110 authority in the matter. This e as the first time that it had been attempted to give a sea-going ship a differing rating —reducing a ship carrying an Admiral's flag— reducing such a ship to a rating below its proper one. In such cases the pay of petty officers was much reduced, and he doubted whether they had not good grounds for an action. He had called the atten tion of the Committee to these subjects, because he thought the power assumed by the Admiralty was liable to very great abuse. The pay of no man in the service should be left to the caprice bf any one Board in the country. He felt that he had troubled the Committee at great length, but after the speech of the Hon. Gen tleman, lie felt that his duty compelled him to do so. He had en deavoured to show that the estimates for one year slid not give any satisfactory showing of what they ought to be for another year. He did not think that it was necessary to have ten sail of the line , in the Mediterranean, if they cculd be better employed in the Chan nel. They could be as well disciplined in the ports and harbours, and then the officers and men would have an opportunity of visiting their families; and he could not but think that the Admiralty was much to blame with respect to the distribution of Ito ships. Admiral ADAM always rose to address tha House with great reluctance. He was perfectly swore that he had not the talents to follow the Honourable Baronet, who was cue of the most practised debaters in the House. They had been twitted because that the Secretary for the Admiralty had had the duty imposed upon him of bringing forward the Navy Estimates; but after the very luminous and eloquent speech of the Hen. Gentleman, on Monday night, could any one doubt that it was not better that he should be called upon in place of those who, by their professional habits, were almost precluded from so well doing their duty. Some of the statements of the lion. Baronet lie was able to answer, not only to the satisfaction of his friends behind him, but also to the satisfaction of the country at large.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet began about foreign affairs, but it was not his duty to answer those topics ; they would be answered by one much more capable of doing so than him. He then went on to the question of guard-ships in our ports, and as to the best means of de fending our own shores, by having always ready guard.ships in the ports. Now, he thought it better to have half-manned guard-ships than to have no ships at all. It could not be denied that these ships did their duty well, though they were only armed en flute, and though their complement was not complete. Had they been so they could not have carried out troops abroad. When it was necessary to send troops to our North American possessions, then it was shown with what promptness and alacrity which did every credit for both the officers and men who had to undertake that duty in the midst of winter.—(Hear, hear.) The ships were then better employed in his opinion than in lying in the ports in harbours of Great Britain. He had yet to learn that it was better to have ships half armed in the ports than to have them at sea ready in a very short time to be sent to any part of the world. With respect to leaving the shores of this country unprotected, he denied the fact altogether—(Loud cheers)—and he could prove that it was not so. Li the course of last summer three line-of battle ships—three ships earning Admirals' flags, armed in the same manner as those guard ships which were so much vaunted by the Hon. Baronet were in the ports ; their complements could be made up, and they could be made fully efficient for any emergence in a very short space of time; besides those three ships there were constantly in tie Tagus, within a few days' sail of this country, two or three ships of the line, constantly sailing backwards and forwards, besides frigates always at command. There were the ships which had been sent to America with troops—if they had been wanted transports would have been taken up for that purpose. At the same time there were in the St. Lawrence two line-of-battle ships besides those carrying troops. When the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) was in the administration of the Navy ships called demonstration ships, for what reason he did not know, were intro. duced ; they were considered nearly ready for commission—that is, they had their water tanks on board, their masts on board, they were rigged, and in a short time they mis ht be made ready for sea. In a short time it became necessary to commission some of those ships ; the Hercules was one of them, and it was found that so far from those ships being in a state of reparation in consequence of being rigged, it was found to be the very reverse. He did not mean to say that there was any negligence in the officers in not reporting them to be in the state they were, but every body knew when ships were properly examined, defects were discovered that had not been brought to light before. The Hercules was obliged to be completely unrigged, and by that means a great deal of time was lost. In consequence of this having been the case the other ships were looked into, and it was found that in many of the other vessels the lower masts were likewise defec , ive; and, therefore, it became necessary to unrig them also. The case, there fore, was this, that the Board of Admiralty, after having had the minutest investigation, came to the resolution of removing all the masts, the lower mash; and everything, and to put everything con nected with those ships into store. The effect of that was that the lower masts and rigging were kept ready and under cover to put on board "ship whenever required, as was every port of the ships which were denominated demonstration ships; he would therefore fearlessly maintain that the system which had been adopted by the present Board of Admiralty was much better than the system adopted by the Right Honourable Baronet opposite. In making that statement ho did not intend to blame the Right Honourable Baronet, because he believed the plan he had adopted would have answered the purpose intended, had the masts been new, but it must be remembered that the masts had gone through a long war, they could not be thrown away, and such being the case, the proper course was to store them up. With respect to the deficiency of stores, his Hon. Friend be • hind him had not blamed the Right Hon. Baronet for that deficiency, because it arose from the circumstance be had stated, that the stores had remained so long in the arsenals that they became deteriorated, and it was found necessary to get rid of many of them. At the time he (Admiral Adam) came to the Admiralty he found the st les its that situation, and that gave rise to the necessity of providing further stores, and it was therefore in 1836 that they began to supply the de ficiency, and not after the speech of the Duke of Wellington, as the Hon. Bart. opposite had stated. That speech had had no effect what. ever on the system which they had adopted, but it had had this effect, that a pamphlet had been put forth by a Flag-Officer full of wilful misstatements. With reference to the stores and rigging, the system formerly was to attach the stores to all the ships likely to be brought forward. When ships were broke up sometimes the stares remained, but it was determined for the future only to have applied to the particular ships the amount that was required for the ships called demonstration ships, and the general stores should be kept fur general purposes besides. With respect to the ships of some of the flag officers, Sir Charles Paget and others, the fact was that the predecessors of those officers had their flags hoisted in the largest frigates. Stich was the case with the Vernon and others, but there being so many 74-gun ships it was thought right that the flags should be hoisted upon those yes sels, and they should be employed where the larger vessels had hitherto been employed. The result was, that when one of the larger frigates was put out of service, she was replaced by a 74. The largest portion of the vessels used in the Baltic were 74-gun ships. It was therefore considered better to employ some small seventy-fours to hoist the flags on, instead of the larger frigates; that gave larger accommodation to the Admirals. The Hon. Baronet opposite had brought a heavy charge against the department to which he belonged. He had said that they had con travened the King's Order in Council, in commissioning ships of one rate for that of another. AI he could say with respect to that was, that he thought the Hen. Baronet had overstrained the effect of that order. The Hon. Baronet should recollect that the King's Order in Council stated that the complement of a certain ship should not exceed a certain number. The advantage of the 74-gun ships was, that they carried heavier guns—that they were stronger ships— that the only difference between the complement of those ships was a sergeant's party of marines. The Hon. Baronet opposite heel stated that the present . Board of Admiralty had been the first to ins traduce the system of employing 74sgun ships. Now, unfortunately flat the Hoti. Baronet, that system had been introduced by Lord De Grey when he was at the Admiralty—(Cheers) —for Sir T. Halkitt had told him himself that he had been permitted to go otit in a 71: gun ship without her lower decle:guns,-( fleet, heat, hertr)—aild he had particularly requested him that lie would propose to the Botird tb aiOsw him to hoist his flag in a 74-gun ship, which would not be more expense, because her 1, wer guns had been taken from her.—(Great cheering.) This was what the Hon. Baronet oppo site had called half manning ships by the present Board of Admi raltv.—(Chee:s ) Ile thought Gentlemen should go a little further back, and see what had taken place while they were In office before they made such charges. Now as to the allegation of the insufficiency of the force which had been sent to Mexico, when the French first blockaded Vera Cruz ; the moment the news of that blockade had arrived, orders were sent from the Admiralty to pay particular attention to it, and Sir C. Paaet was directed to sail to Vera Cruz with the Cornwallis, the Malabar, and another, all seventy-fours, with three large frigates, and six or eight corvettes and sloops. True they slid not arrive till after the taking of the for; of St. Juan d'Ulloa.— ( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) But it was not intended, this country had no right, to prevent the French from taking that fort, though certainly the delay was unintentional and was occa sioned by the unprecedentedly long passage of the ships which carried out both the original and the duplicate despatches. With regard to the Revenge, it would not be thoroughly r. paired till April, and had been without a ma'nmast for a short trine,hut the deficiency Was soon supplied from another vessel. He (Admiral Adam) would now advert to a subject set jell he approached with great reluctance—the reduced complements in peece. He could not egree that the war complements should be retained in time of peace ; for the full complements were much more than sufficient for managing and manceuvring the ships. And he Ira ntained that the point on which Captain Berkeley hail differed from his co leagues seas, whether there should be any peace compEments at all; on which the Gallant Captain was opposed by all the other members of the Admiralty Board; and it seas not proper in a mem. ber of that Board to publish a pamphlet to all the world upon a sub ject which he well knew was under the consideration of the Ad miralty at the time.—(Hear, hear.) Sir J. GRAHAM said it was many years since he had held all office connected with Naval affairs, and during the inters-al he had applied himself to other subjects. He could net say that he had eared minutely to inquire into the measures which had been adopted by his successors, and with respect to his own he was con tent to leave them to the unerring test of time and experience. In all the chanaes which had been introduced by him into the naval department of the administration, he had been assisted by officers of the highest character, and he was sure that those who hail shared the responsibility and the credit (if credit there was) would aid in their defence. The speech of the Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty was marked by great ability—(Hear, hear)—but it was to be re gretted that he should have infused so much of a party tone into the subject.—(Hear, hear.) And as to the Hon. and Gallant Officer who had just sat down, it was not for him (Sir J. Grahaan) to twit that Gallant Officer with inability for a hires.sing ;hat House, even if there was any inability with which he could be taxed; seeing that his character bad not been formed in that House for a debater, but hail been acquired nit a far different scene—in a profession of which he was universally allowed to he a brave and distinguished mee-ber, as he was in private life regarded with respect and affection by all who knew him.—(Hear, Fear.) But he could nut avoid expressing his regret that the Gallant Admiral also had exhibited some portion of the spirit of party in the manner in which he had debated this question. The Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty, and the Gallant Admiral also hail both complained of paragraphs on this subject, which had appeared in the Tory Newspapers—why, really, after this, he (Sir James Graham) might as well make a formal complaint of the paragraphs which appeared on this subject in the Whig Radical newspapers, in which papers paragraphs without number had appeared, in which it had been made matter of congratulation to the country that his (Sir James Graham's) connection with the Admiralty had ceased, as his presence at the head of that Board had been one of the great causes which had prevented the proper efficiency of the Navy. lie would not be led away by such consider ations as these to adopt a line of discussion in relation to this ques tion, which should occasion it to turn upon mere party views, such was not the manner in which this question should he discussed ; a question affecting the effi:iency of the British Navy as a certain means of defence, and the power of the British flag to sustain and secure the national safety, and maintain and protect the national in. terests.—(l-lear, hear) All other considerations were merely se conday when the question was view cc' in this manner. The clues. tion as to whether the preceding Boards of Admiralty were in fault ought not now to be made matter of such great importance. There could be no doubt that in the management of affairs of such great difficulty and such vast importance, faults had been committed by all preceding boards. Ile (Sir J. Graham) did not claim for him. self exemption from all blameon this subject, nor did be imaginethat either the Hon. Gentleman opposite or those who had preceded him (Sir J. Graham) in the administration of that Board, would be inclined to claim such exemption. With regard to the letter brother of the Hon. Gentleman opposite who had been his (Sir J. Graham's) colleague at the Board of Admira'ty, he must say that he did certainly very much regret that Captain Berkeley should have been induced by the example of the Secretary to the Admiralty—when he found that a difference of opinion existed on the subject of the efficiency of the Navy, between himself and the other members of the Board—he must say that he did regret that Captain Berkeley should have been induced to appeal, by means of a printed pamphlet, front their tribunal to the profession and the pubic. He conceived this to have been an error in judg. ment on the part of that Gallant Officer, and having done this, he did lust see how he could have acted otherwise than he had done, in ceasing to be an) 1 roger connected with that Board. Blaring admitted thus much, he must confess that en every other point he fully agreed in the opinions which had Leen expressed in the letter of Captain Berkeley, with regard to the present inefficient complements of the crews.—(llear, (tear.) NVith regard to the re_ duction of peace complements in 1834, he would say that he agreed fully in the opinion expressed by Captain Berkeley on that subject, that considering the increase which had taken place in the weight of the yards and size of the masts of the larger frigates, that those complements were too small—that, except in very smooth water it was impossible for the watch alone to work the ship--that the crew were consequently obliged frequently to turn out for this purpose, which interfered great' y with the comfort of the men, and diminished that superiority, which on this point the service of the Navy possessed over the merchant service, in which the ships were in general undermanned; and he believed that to this cause might in a considerable degree be attributed the difficulty which existed in inducing men voluntarily to enlist in the service. He would not pursue this subject _further, as, from the observa. lions of the Gallant Officer, in the postcript to his letter, lie was induced to indulge a hope that the attention of the Board of Admiralty having been drawn to this subject, the present inefficient state of the lie ice complements would be remedied. He regretted the publication of this letter on another account, in con sequence of it the services of Capt. Berkeley had been lost at the Board of Admiralty. But if the retirement of Cape. Berkeley was a subject of regret the restoration of Sir J. Pechell to that Board was a matter for congratulation. The Hon. Gentleman opposite bad spoken the other night of the more efficient system of naval gun. nery which it had been his (Sir J. Graham's) good fortune to introduce. The first suggestion he had received on that subject was from certain documents which he found left on that subject by his predecessor in office, Lord Melville. The entire system had been formed first from the suggestions which he had received on this subject from various officers in the Navy, and further from the information col_ lected from an admirable pamphlet on the subject of gunnery gene rally, which had been published by Sir Howard Douglas. He had at that time thought it advisable to make a considerable reduction in the Marine Artillery, he thought it a wiser plan to reduce this force considerably, that to abolish it entirely, and he had accord ingly reduced the Marine Artillery from eight companies to two, so that in the event of war, or of the probability of war, the means should remain of recruiting and reinforcing that excellent corps, if it should be deemed necessary. By this reduction of the marine artillery he had been enabled to bring this improved system of Naval gunnery to its present state without much additional ex pense to the public; but he should not have succeeded in doing this,had it not been for the very valuable assistance he had received from Sir John Fechell, who had devoted his undivided attention to this most important subject.—(Hear, hear.) He was sorry the Hon. Gentle men opposite had been pleased to allude to the Naval administra tion of Earl de Grey. He thought that it was hardly fair, consider ing the very short time that Noble Earl had presided at that Board, to make him or the administration with which he was connected re sponsible for the state orthe Navy, in 1836. For the state of Navy from 1831,up to that period, he considered that he (Sir J. Graham), who had been the predecessor of the Noble Earl, alone was responsi_ ble. He was prepared with documents, to defend himself from any charges that might be brought against him respecting the state of the stores—the abolition of the coast guard—the reduction of the marine artillery —and the introduction of the system of naval gun nery,but he trusted he should not be obliged to read these documents, as if he did, he thought he should send the Chairman to sleep, and be considered by the Committee as the most tiresome of speakeis. If the subject should be brought forward, he would be ready to enter into these details, but he thought the subject had better not be encumbered by their consideration. But he must say as an act of justice to his predecessor, Lord Melville, that the state and amount of the stores he had received from that Noble Lord was most satisfactory. He was aware that it was highly improper to state the present amount of stores —but he would state the amount of stores that he had received from Lord Melville in 1830, and also liberty sit a of sg in oh e 8 l t 3 .0, and e House with a detached statem en t of the stores left the amount that he (Sir J ames G raham) had left on quitting office in 1833, as an act o f i ust i ce to himself and to Lord Mel- stores was as a s satisfactory take the t l ht Mel ville, and then perhaps the Ho n . S ecretary would state whether the in mofe w the o u; d therefore at the end of the Noble Lord's Administration and at the end of his own; he would make the statement of amount under each head. He had found of large timber on entering to office .56,633, he had left 59,671 ; he had found of thick stuff and plank 8,313, he had left 8,045 ; he had found 3,932 tons of hemp, he had left 7,221; he had found 4,154 tons of yarn, he had left 4,188; he had found 3,500 tons of cables and cordage, he had len 3,038; he had found 33,600 bolts of canvas, he had left 30,060; he had found 2,569 an chors, he had left 2,441 ; he had found 725 chain cables, he had left 858 ; he had found 10,529 iron tanks, he had left 9,453 t he had found lo lower masts for ships of the line, he had left 151 ; he had found 167 lower masts of frigates; he had left 191 ; he had found 317 top mats, he had left 344. He found spars for topmasts 895, and he left 995 ; he found spars for lower yards 452, and he left 452. The House would see that with a single exception of hemp the stores left by Lord Melville were nearly the same as those left by him. With respect to the ar. tide of hemp, the explanation was, that there had been a combina- ion in the market to advance the price when the Administration of lie Duke of Wellington went out of office, and there was an earnest desire to break down the combination which had occasioned the re duction of the quantity of that article in store. The House would do him the justice to remember that when he found no provision had been made for engines for steamers of war he had come dowh to that House with a special estimate, and having stated the fact, he without difficulty obtained the necessary grant. He had thought it necessary to state so much with respect to the important article of stores, but that was only of secondary im. portance to the state of the ships themselves. These were the ma. terials try which ships might be maintained and repaired; but a matter of higher importance was the state of the ships themselves, with regard to their prompt preparation in a case of necessity. He entirely agreed with the Hon. Gentleman opposite that the question of the number of ships in commission was not an Admiralty but a Cabinet question. That must vary from year to year according to the state of their foreign relations, and the views of the Gsvernment generally—of the probable want of a given force within a given time —and the demonstration it might be necessary to make in any part of the world by that country. It by no means followed that because in 1835 the Hon. Gentleman found it necessary to ask for 15,000 instead of 17,000 men, it by no me..ns followed that he had acted with imprudence. That vote had been asked with reference to the then state of their foreign relations, and he thought, with a view of giving breathing time to the country, the force asked should be the smallest that might be deemed necessary.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that no fanciful apprehensions—no fastidious or absurd desire of making a demonstration of a large force in time of peace, would justify any Ministry in coming down and asking for a single man more than was necessary. He would illustrate that by his own conduct, when acting In concert with some of his colleagues whom he saw on the opposite side ofthe House. In 1831 he had comedown with the full concurrence of these colleagues, and asked the House oe for an in crease o f 3 , 0 00 seamen and a t h o usand marines. H e had alludingthat s raised the number of seamen f rom 18,000 to 22,000, an d the number of marines f rom 9 , 000 t o 10,000' subject he w a s anx i ous t o avo id an y angry toil;ic, butthe t House would recollect that in 1831-32 the Government carried on two warlike Operations—one the Dutch blockade, and the other a war like demonstation on the coast of Portugal, the result of which had placed her present Majesty on the the throne of that kingdom. These operations having terminated before he left office he had the satisfaction of moving a reduction of 4,000 seamen, and 1,000 marines. That was an illustration of the principle in his (Sir J. Graham's) practice, while he was in office. The Hon. and Gallant Officer had referred to the demonstration ships, and t h e Hon,. Secretary of the Admiralty, who was a somewhat severe critic, said that it was a very absurd name; he (Sir J. Graham) was not there to defend that particular phrase, but to defead the principle on which the practice had been framed. He contended that In time of peace ; With a fers ee limited by the stria principle which had ken laid down, it was desirable that WhßtevEr peace establishment they had should be available as possible, not in Eiiroile alone, but throughout the whole of the seas surrounding the civilized world wherever the colonies extended, due regard being had to the safety of Melt own chores. He candidly confessed that Ise differed with the floh; SeErerafY With Heard tb list Ott:Renee of the old guard-ships: whether he looked at their disciplin-, the chaiddief iii the men who volunteered into them, or the general state of their order and equipment. he did not believe that they formed a reserve upon which any firm reliance could be placid. He hoped the House would pardon him if he read—and he would not do so if he had not obtained the official sanction of the head of the Admiralty, to whom he applied for an official copy of the document, with an intimation that he would make a public use of it—he hoped the House would allow him to read this document which he could do without sty violation of what was due to official confidence. It was a minute which he had left at the Board of Admiralty on the day he had resigned office, and it did lay down more correctly the exact reasons which had led him originally to recommend the for. oration of these demonstration ships. The Right Hon. Baronet then read the document, which stated, as Isis last act before leaving the Board, he considered it his duty in the most earnsst manner to im press on his successor the paramount importance of keeping at all times read) to receive men twelve sail of the line, and six large fri gates in addition to the ships in commission; when he said ready to receive men lie meant with their standing rigging over the mast heads, with their topmasts pointed, their lower yards crossed, all their internal fittings complete, and their ground tier tanks on board. In case of any sudden emergency it was impossible to calculate the advan tage ofsuch a reserve, he spokefrom experience, when he declaredthat if reliance was placed on the ordinary to meet any sudden demand for an increased armament, disappointment might es:sue, and national danger might be the consequence. France, Russia, and all the other naval powers kept constantly a large portion of their fleets in a state of readiness, and when he compared the num ber of their ships with the reduced peace establishment of that country in ships of war, and vessels in commission, most- of which were scattered throughout the world for the protection of their Colonies, he was convinced of the necessity of having a force ready equipped in harbour at once to proceed to sea as soon as men could be obtained. That force should be equally divided be tween Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the Nore, and that the Ad miral commanding should be held strictly responsible for their constant state of efficiency. The rigging should be renewed from time to time, and the masts and spars overhauled, the costs of which would be insignificant compared to the national advantage of having a force that would be available without the risk of disappointment.—(flear.) To •sure the ships being ready, he would recommend the drafting of men into them. He had mentioned the raising of men as a necessary limit to the dispatch In fitting them out, and he begged to observe that the Coast Guard, as at present constituted, was to a certain extent a re. serve of prime seamen. Whatever means might be adopted to re gulate the supply of men by means of registration or otherwise, it should never be fergotten that the moment real danger threatened the country, impressment alone was the only sure means of obtaining a rapid supply of mess, and the surrender of that prerogative of the Crown would be in his judgment the death blow of the naval supre macy of the country.—(Hear, hear.) These were the opinions be had put on record, and there was one point in that document to which he wished to refer, and that was with respect to the Coast Guard. The former Coast Blockade Service was under the Treasury, and not under the Admiralty—it was a Civil and not a Naval force. The Noble Earl, under whom he had had the honour of serving, surrendered the patronage of the Coast Guard of Great Britain and Ireland, which he would undertake to say, for Parlia mentary purposes, was the most useful patronage a First Lord of Treasury could enjoy. In was patrona generally sought after by members for the maritime towns and counties, and patronage snore useful no Administration could possess. The Noble Earl having been satisfied by him that a Naval object would be obtained, slid not hesitate at once to transfer that farce from the Treasury to the Ad miralty. He had imposed no condition but that he should have security that it was not a job for civil purposes, but that it would be applied exclusively to Naval purposes. Ile very much appreciated the advantage of this argument. The whole coast of Great Britain and Ireland was now surrounded by a force under the direction of naval officers, and composed of picked men, who had pensions, which were considered as retaining fees from the Admiralty, and these men might be called on to leave the Coast Guard and go into ships, under the threat that if they re fused their pensions would be withdrawn from them. This call would on an emergency, he was sure, be quite sufficient, if impressment were also resorted to. The Coast Block-de amounted only to 2,700—n0w it was 5,000 odd hundred men. He (Sir J. Graham) had the authority of a Gallant Officer, a near relative of the Noble Lord opposite—a eentleman for whom he had the highest esteem, whether he regarded him as a naval or a civil officer, Captain Bowles—(Hear, hear)—that the saving in money effected for the country by the change of the Coast Guard into the Coast Blockade was 50,000/. to 60,000/. a year in direct caleula tion—but that in a fiscal sense the benefit would be incalculable; for smuggling was not suppressed until the Coast Blockade was insti tuted. The revenue through their protection was now safe. He was glad to hear that her Majesty's Government had appointed a com mission to ascertain the question at how much less cost the Coast Guard could be maintained, but he trusted the Government would think twice and act deliberately before it should determine to put down the Coast Blockade and renew the Cost Guard. He must also state frankly that he had apprehensions concerning a departure from the rule about demon stration ships when in port, in which, instead of having the pre. parations actually made on board by a regulation of the Admiralty, in 1836 a system of preparation on shore was substituted. Now he had consulted Sir Thomas Hardy on this point. He had acted with that distinguished officer; and, with the late Admiral Dundas, a dear departed friend, whose connection with him he always re membere I with the most hearty gratification—whose loss he should ever contemplate with sorrow, and whose merits he should always recur to as one of the most up. right, leanest, and sliinterested public servants that ever entered the service of his Majesty.—(Hear, hear.) Having acted with both those distinguished officers in the regulations he referred to, he asked Sir Thomas Hardy whether it would be judicious to deport from the rule he approved of.. His (Sir T. Hardy's, answer was, "That nost certainly, in Isis opinion, and that sif the late Admi ral Dundas, viewing the necessity of a standing naval armament at home, they thought it would be of advantage to have four ships of the line and a proportionate number of frigates in each of the harbours of Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the Medway, in such a state of readiness as would enable them to be got ready for active service in the least possible time. The degrees which they would have the ships prepared in were the lower rigging over the masts, the lower masts, the two top mash, the tanks filled, and the boats and spars on board. Experience however proved that when slips had been so prepared for sev erall years, the rigging became so deteriorated that refitting was necessary, and the stores in the holds so damaged as to require renewing. Therefore, he (Sir T. Hardy) thought that if the hulks were kept quite ready the masts and rigging might be kept fit for instant use in the yards, marked for certain ships.—(Hear, hear.) There would be more saved than lost by this arrangement —more good than harm would be done by it." He (Sir J. Graham) was once of a different opinion, but he at once yielded up his opinion to this most respec table authority, and as there was so much natural aoxiety on this subject, he had thought it his duty to read the letter.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Sir T. Hardy thought, and he agreed with him, that it would be a great advantage if everything was kept in readiness to be put on board and fitted to the ships. Having discovered before he left the Admiralty, that great deterioration had pervaded the lower masts in consequence of long exposure to the weather, he ordered mast houses to be built in the dock-yards, and shears to be raised on the wharfs for taking out and putting in the masts, and also railways to be laid down between the shears and the mast houses, that no (line in fitting out should be lost. He had no doubt that those orders had been executed. These precautions would, if acted upon, save lower masts as well as important spars and stores from being rotted in future. In passing now he must make a remark, though not in anger or at all in hostility, on one important point. Suppose it were desirable to get ready an armament with all possible dispatch in the spring or summer. He would remind them that the first men who went on board ships when put into commission were the Marines. Now far 12 ships.of-the line and six frigates there would be required 2,500 Marines. But at present we could not lay our handson them, for 1,100 or 1,290 of the Marines were in Spain, that place in which the battles with windmills were formerly fought—(Laughter) —and in which the Noble Lord would persevere in interfering. Now we could only commission six ships of the line and six frigates —if we recalled the Marines in Spain we could commission twelve sail of the line and six frigates. The force now in Spain made the difference between the power of the Government to commission or not to commission the large •r the small fleet.—(Hear.) He thought that the experiment of the Noble Lord had entirely failed, and that being the fact he trusted he would admit that the peace and security of the country would be much increased if the Marines in Spain were called home and placed at once on board ship ready for corn. mission.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he would come back to a subject of primary importance, that was, the expense. He perceived that the Hon. Member for Kilkenny was awake now that he came to that part.—(Laughter.) if he (Sir J. Graham) had any fault to find with the Estimate, it was that It was deficient. There should be a larger expenditure, and that expenditure should be permanently kept up. This was indispensably necessary.—( Hear, hear.) Here he wished to carry the Committee along with him. So far from speaking in a hostile feeling against the Government, he was per. suaded that whatever Administration was in power it must admit, what he now contended for, that a larger force was necessary, if the permanent safety of the country was to be regarded of a paramount importance.—(Cries of " Hear.") He had often before had a battle with the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, on this point, he had often stated to him, that ships like men were perishable--that both had their terms of natural life—and that an annual supply of new ships would be necessary to replace those which would successively decay. To prove the necessity of increase on our part, he would refer to a comparative naval table, published by Sir J. Barrow, showing the maritime force of Great Britain, Russia. France, and the United States. When he (Sir J. Graham) addressed the House, five years ago, on this question, he would remind them he stated that the naval force of Great Britain was then weaker than any year since the revolution. Sir J. Barrow's table showed that now England had 21 sail of the line, France 10, Russia 40, and America 2. We had throughout the world 21 sail of the line in commission, end these three powers had 52 sail. Of 50 gun frigates and upwards, we had only 2, while France had 10, Russia 4, and America 6. England had 57 sail of the line in ordinary, France 12, Russia 3, and America 5- e -so that we had 57 sail in ordinary to their 18. Of frigates in ordinary, of 50 guns and upwards, England had 17, France 15, and America 9. While we had only two frigates of 50 gu•.s in commission to their 20, we had in ordinary 17 to their 24. He now came to building. How many sail of the line had England building? England had 12, France 29, Russia 7, and America, ac. cording to Sir J. Barrow, 26. The Secretary to the Admiralty, in this House, demurred to the statement of the Secretary to the Admiralty out of doors.—( Laughter.) The Hon. Gentlemen in the House said there was a smaller number, but he would rather take the statement of the Secretary out of doors, The Hon. Secretary in the House, said that America had not actually 26 sail of the line on the stocks, but that frames for that number had been contracted for to be delivered in 1841. If the frames were to be delivered in 1841, America would be able to complete her 26 sal of the line; but he much doubted whether as much could be said of our 12 sail. Takc the building and ordinary together. which was the fair way, England had only 67 sail of the line, France 39, Russia 10, and America would have 31 at the end of the year 1841. England had in ordinary 19, France 32, and America 27; that was, we had 19 frigates only to 59 of those of other powers. Then the steamers of war were still more formidable; England had 9, France 22, Russia, 8, and America 1. That was, we had 9 steamers of war in corn. mission to their 31 ; of steamers in ordinary England had 7, France had 15 building, and America 9. This was a statement deserving the most serious consideration of the House.—(Cheers.) He had given credit for 56 sail of the being sound shies, hut several of them were not. The Gallant Admiral did not like to make such an admission, but he would drive him to it. Every Gentle. man knew that the declining value of life was tested by the lapse of time, and so it was with ships. At Lloyd's ships were divided into three classes, A, B, and C, always depending on the age and repair of the ships. He wished the Gallant Admiral would make some inquiry on this pull of the case, and Ise did not think that he would then rest so easily.—(Hear, hear.) He was satisfied of this, that while he (Sir J. Graham) was at the Admiralty, he launched seven new ships in four years —seven sail of the line. In 1831, there were launched the Calcutta 84, and the Thunderer 84 ; in 1839, the Neptune 120, and the Monarch 84 ; in 1833, the Royal William 120, the Waterloo 120, and the Rod ney 92, and he left on the stocks others ready for launching. He laid down eight sail of the line, viz., three first rates, three second rates, and two third rates. Now lie did not take any merit for this —not the slightest. The larger portion were transmitted to him by Lord Melville, in an advanced state of preparation for launching. He only adhered to the system of annually launching a given num. ber of . ships and ordering an equal number to be in progress. Unless that practice was resumed, our line of battle ships would dwindle to nothing; year by year it would become weaker, until at last either an immense and most expensive effort would be required to restore it, or national disappointment would ensue, and national degradation would be the inevitable consequence.—(Cheers.) He would now come to the point of expense. The plan which he adopted, in concert with Sir Thomas Hardy and Admiral Dundas was, that three sail of the line and three new frigates should be launched every year. Lord Aueithind 2d6ptCcl the same view; and with his late Majesty it was an object of constan( idcjulrg f bolt many ships were launching, and how many were repairing. In !fiat mope it would be 14 years before they renewed the line of battle ship 4; left than that would not suffice; and he was satisfied that some such arrailiettiCitt al that thdtlitt be flAtitted year by year. This, how ever, had been alogetheEdiebdtifirit:ed by the pteSent Admiralty.— (Hear, hear.) This, perhaps, might hafd arisen iti Sortie fEgpceta Irom the increased supply of superior sailing vessels, the additional ships in commission, and the packet service. The al:Bet:plena , licid beeti that BIC rrorkmen had been withdrawn from the line of battle ships. The Hon. fieift. Hatt talti thA he (Sir J. Graham) reduced the dock-yards too low. He adopted the !cafe Oked Upon by Sir Gco. Cockburn and Lord Melville, namely 6,000 Wdrilifitlti. What would be the cost of rectifying the remissness which had fallen place? It would take 120 shipwrights a year to build a ship of the line; and If 500 shipwrights were added to the dock-yards, the cost at live shillings per day would be 1,2501. a week, or 65,0001. a year, and the expense of materials added to this would make the total 130,0001. This was the whole matter in dispute. Between complete preparation and the absence of preparation—between safety and danger, the sum was only 130,000/. H., believed that the whole matter in dispute might be brought to this narrow point. This subject ought nit to be made a matter of erimination or're crimination, or the subject of attack upon a Tory or a Whig Ad. ministration, but they ought to endeavour to put themselves right in the presence of the wood, and show that a reform Parliament was niggardly in expenses that were really necessary. If on calm reasoning it could be shown, as he was afraid he had too much to the trouble of the ['ewe endeavOured to how, that this sum was necessary, though the Hon Member for Kilk tiny might not a,ree with him—(laug'l)—he believed the great m j wily of the House would throw aude all considerations of patty, and support the Government in demanding this extra sum of money, nnly 193,600/. a year upon the understanding that regularly, year by year, three line of hate °old and an equal number of other vessels,—(Cheers.) NVhile in office he ha-1 in lea voured to save the public money to the best of nis powur. He had seen, with shame and sorrow, certain expressions said to have been used at a public meeting at Birmingham. He believed they were not used by the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Attwood, but at a public meeting there. Mr. Burke had been denounced as a political scoundrel. lie (Sir J. Graham) thought sir. Burke was the first of political philosophers, and the greatest guide in all mat ters of political reform.—( Hear, hear) He well recollected (although he could not quote the precise words) Mr. Burke had said that eco. nomy in naval matters was the most dangerous of all, for it was a bastard economy, not deserving the name, which brought after it a long train of fatal consequences, and it might inflict irreparable in jury ; and he said further, that the estimate of the year was never in naval matters a real standard of necessary expense. He (Sir J. G.) begged the House to consider these principles, lie had endeavoured dispassionately to force them upon the attention of Hon. Members ; he had abstained from indulging in any petty or personal attacks, and his greatest reward would be if by that abstinence he should have persuaded the Committee to agree with him on the motion, which he conscientiously and sincerely believed to be of primary national importance.—(Cheers.) Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON rose under a great disad vantage after the Right Hon. Baronet, but he hoped the House would allow him to make a few observations. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet in the principles he had laid down with respect to demonstration ships. Whatever might be the strength of the fleet in commission, it became the country to have a certain num ber of ships ready in case of emer“eney. Without that adaitional naval force, in no period of history had we been able to carry our intentions into execution. There ought to be ships always ready to be brought forward at a moment's notice. The only difference of opinion was, as to whether this should be brought forward that way, or in another. It had been found that those demon stration ships were not in a state of readiness as they would have been if the stores had been prepared in the dock-yard. He had known many instances where ships had been supposed to be ready, where the rigging had been supposed to be in good order, but when they came to be examined it was found the rigging would , not bear the strain of sea.service, and in short it was found there was more to undo than there was to do.—(Hear, hear.) It might be easy to get stores upon an emergency, but it was not so easy to get men. The obtaining of stores was of secondary impor tance. He knew it took a great deal of time to make a real seaman.—( Hear, hear.) He was sorry that the House did not seem to be aware of the real value of good seamen. There Na, no class of men under the sun who were worse treated than British seamen.—(Cheers) Seamen were not paid at their value, and this led into a point that had been Eently touched upon, viz., the subject of impressment. He was ready to admit the right of impressment, but then when they had done with them they ought to give them the best method they could. When an increase in the Army was wanted, they coaxed and wheedled a man, and induced him to beco:ne a volunteer ; but how aid they act with re spect to the Navy ? Why if they saw a man was worth his weight in gold they stole him. He knew he had been reproached by many naval officers for giving an opinion against impressment, but he did not deny the propriety of the practice when it was abso. lutely necessary. At one time a ship he comnr.nded was paid off, and he was waited upon by one of the best men he had had under his command. The man asked him if it was true that he was going to retie for a time, and being answered in the affirmative, he said he did not want to be made a warrant officer—he wanted him (Sir E. C.) to procure his discharge, because his father, a waterman in London, was 80 yeats of age, and his mother 78, and he wanted to procure his discharge, in order that he might work a, a waterman, and that he might be enabled to do something for them. That man was a pressed man—he never received the bounty —lie preserved to himself the right to desert—(Oh)—he received no bounty—he refused it, but he went further, and said he was ready to pay 80 guineas for twa substitutes. He had that excuse for de. serting, but he did not; he served under him for nine years with a good character, and had served as long before with a good charac ter; and yet he had no encouragement to remain in the Navy. That was not proper encouragement for such an important service He spoke or only the case of one man, with which he was welt acquainted ; there might be hundreds more. He objected to impress ment as the natural mode of filling up the ranks in the Navy. Was it right that a man who was impressed should be liable to all the caprices of any officer who might choose to act the part of a despot ? His opinion was that if the country was unfor tunately obliged to go to war, she was also bound to go to the ex pense of getting and keeping goad men.—(Cheers.) He had not had a very short experience on board ship, and the result of that experience was, that he would much rather go to sea with a good, well-disciplined, and contented ship's complement in not so good a ship, as go to sea in one of these fine ships only half manned, and with those discontented. He spoke only in his character of an officer in the service, and one who had seen some little service, and not from any party feeling.—(Hear, hear.) The men serving in the Navy were not party men—they served without any party feeling the moment they got afloat they had only an nottioty to do their duty—he had searooly cvct seen an instance in which an otlicer had carried party feelings into the naval service. There certainly had been a party attack, and therefore he had not interrupted the Right Ho? ii ll e a g ro u n e e s. t (Sir J. Graham) in what he considered a party speech. Lion was not a party one, and ought not to be discussed upon such grounds. He was old enough to remember three armaments—the Dutch, the Spanish, and the Russian armaments, when thirty-six sail-of.line were moored at Spithead in a very short time. He fully believed that the best means of preventing a war was the exhibition of a Strong naval force.—(Cheers.) There was a want, in his opi. nion, upon the part of every Administration he had ever seen with respect to the Navy. The pensions of the men had been most igno rantly twered with and reduced. One instance he a; ould mention to the House, in order to show that there was great injustice done to the Navy. When he arrived from the Mediterranean he went to the Admiralty and represented the case of a man who had received 8 wounds, one of them a very bad one, being caused by splinters, from which he lost the use of one eye. The Admiralty asked what had be. come of the man. He answered that he had been made a signal. man, and made to use the other eye. Oh, then, said the Admi ralty, they could do nothing for him, as he was not disabled—. his case did not, therefore, come under their consideration. The man was again in action, and the other eye damaged. He (Sir E. Codrington) represented his case to the Commissioners, and the man had been allotted 6d. a day. When he made the report his word was doubtod; for, said they, such things are not done in the Army. " No," said he, " that was what ha complained of—it was always so in the Navy.''—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He wrote to a surgeon on the subject, who in answer stated that the man's eye was uninjured until a musket ball had passed over it, which had caused cataract. Why, he would ask, should doubt have been thrown upon *atter of that sort? Because, supposing cataract had not come from the wound, there was a man who had done his duty in battle, who had been cut to pieces and disabled from providing for himself, with the paltry pittance of 6d. a.day. Was that, he would ask, any encouragement for a man to join the Navy?—(Hear, hear.) He would now mention a case, which he trusted would be put to rights by the present Commissioners ; he believed it was the wish of the Government to do all they could for the good of the Navy. He would mention the case of a man being wounded—a Midshipman ;if he was wounded and granted a pen. sion, upon promotion he lost that pension.—(Hear, hear.) These things wanted alteration. He had no doubt the Admiralty had a desire to look into the matter that had been con plained of, but then they should look into them properly. They should come for ward holdly to the House, and say that they had a demand which the House must grant. Talk of economy—economy was not to be considered where justice was on the way.—(Hear.) The reason the Navy of England was in the state it was at present was because a superior class of men were not encouraged. He could not close the observations he had made without referring to another branch of the service—the artillery. Great injustice had been done to them. Whenever a man entered into that yard, whatever value he was of at that time onght to be kept up; but what was the case ? Why, when a man went into the Dock-yard, instead of carrying his servi tude with him, he was only considered entitled to a pension for the service he had performed there. Why he would ask was not his previous services to be taken into consideration ? When a man had served twenty-one years he was entitled to a pension, and why was not that to be taken into consideration when he went into the Dock.yard ? That was what he complained of, he did not complain of people having too much, but he did complain of those who had served their country not being put upon the same footing as those who did not go through half the danger. Many of these things being heavy upon his mind, there was one case that was before him of a distinguished officer who had been sent out on a survey, Cap. tain Fitzroy ; that Gallant individual had found himself totally unable to accomplish the object he was sent upon without an expenditure from his own small property of nearly 7,0001. ; did it not, therefore, become the country to pay him for what he had done. If he had spent the money improperly, give him only one half_ of it back—if he had spent it properly, let him have the whole. He had been in' Parliament now for near seven years, and it was painful for him to think during that time how little attention had been paid to the Naval Service. Let Parliament take the subject seriously into consideration at once, and do not let them wait till young officers wrote pamphlets calling their attention to the subject. He knew that these things were not agreeable to men in office. He cared not for Whig or Tory when he was speaking of the Navy, be cause he looked upon the Navy as the brightest jewel in the Crown of their little—(Laughter)—he meant their young Qoeen— (Cl,eors)—and he felt convinced that there was not a seaman in the country who was not ready to give up his life in protecting that little jewel. He hoped the House would look with great strictness into the present estimates, in order to effect the better condition of the Navy.—(Hear, hear.) He could not conclude without men. tioning to the House a circumstance that took place between the Emperor of Russia and a naval offieer of this country. On one occasion, when the Emperor and the officer were together, the top sail of a ship, one of the most difficult feats of a seaman, was shifted in fifteen minutes. He doubted very much whether that could be done now, considering the state of the Navy at the present time. The great difficulty was in procuring real skilful seamen, and good experiencd workmen in the Dock-yards—both which points were under the present system rendered very difficult of attain ment, by the bad encouragement which was held out to sailors and to workmen. Lord ASHLEY wished to explain a few points which had been erroneously stated by the lion. Secretary for the Admiralty when he (Lord A.) had brought forward the Naval Estimates in 1835, with a reduction of 232,0001. He did not take credit for that re. duction, but expressly ascribed it to the preceding Government. The estimates were diminished by 2,000 men, for whom, however, 1,000 boys were substituted. The reason of that reduction, equivalent to a diminution (in a money point of view) of 1,500 men, as the wages of 500 men would pay 1,000 boys, was that ships had been ordered home, with 2,000 men, to be paid off by the preceding Government. Three-fourths of the estimates had been found prepared by the preceding Goverment. In 1834 the esti mates amounted to 499,1901., and in 1835 to 421,9584, which cer tainly exhibited a reduction. Why was this? He must explain to the House that by an order of the Admira:ty a certain amount of stores was denominated the establishment, a certain other amount was denominated the• full establishment, and then there was the special establishment under each head. Now in the year 1834 the sum wanted to complete the full establishment was 583,6661., the sum voted was 499,190/., being 133,2701. less than was re. quired for the full establishment. Now at the time he (Lord Ash ley) was Secretary to the Admiralty the sum wanted to make up the full establishment amounted to 428,5501., and the vote taken for stores amounted to 333,1301.; so that the difference then existing between the amount voted and the amount required to complete the full establishment of stores, amounted only to 6 5,420/. It was therefore evident that they had bettered the condition of the stores by 67,850/. He would now show to the House in what Partei`ular articles of stores this increase had taken place. In timber thee: had been an increase of 8 per cent. ; in cordage there had be 11 bicrease of 53 per cent. ; the supply of hemp was fully equlaG% in spars it amounted to 133 per cent. Now there had taker' f in five years a deereafse in timber from 421)er cent. to 1 7 P er cr9t ' S in cordage from 34 per rent. to 28 per cent. ; sP' 7 ' 0 from 12 per cent. to 4 per cent. ; in canvas from 61 p er cent , the f. , 0 par cent. He would likew'se state ii) a ddition, Oat 'n had left a large supply of ready made sails ; the estimat es had h! . presesited to them by the heads of the different departm ents, t 0 reeir cisely the etate in Which they would have been pres ented to predecessors, had they remained in office, and the only anti, ration they had made in them was to increase the , 1. mate for steam engines for steam vessels, from 0P.% 0 to ilo,oooh The Honourable Gentleman had imagi ned that thee supply of dddi had been less at that period, but the fact w , he supply was 20,000 torte, exactly the same as had bee n asked by tire supply was 20,000 tolial, c%actiy the same as had been ask amount Hon. Gentleman in the succeeding year, the difference in ai11 . 0 . 7, 0 being that in the one 15s. sd. per ton had been paid fo r coal, ct:y in the other had been purchased for 15s. per ton. It vas per./e. clear, therefore, that no charge of unnecessary reduction cont°,oo, brought against them, because they had adopted, wi thout redo," the estimates intended foe' their predecessors which had Mr. F. A. BERKELEY rose to reply to an expres sion win fallen from one of the Lords of the Admiralty, t h a t C P Berkeley had forgotten what was due to himself, whe n-ho Pub2es te' ter his letter; riots he thought that Captain Berkeley had n ever recollected what wait due both to himself and to the service, "'lie he had done when he had pursued the course comp lained of. the had tell it his duty, in justice to his mother, to en ter into tatement he had made the other night on this subject , and alth°,tio he perfe Cy a .; r.,ect in eve y .tatement made by h i s brother r e. to this sueject, he would not oppose this vt.te, but would tait_e_e. a ro l as opportunity of plating on the beoks of the House a notice of Lion that there should be a standing complemeet fo r manning the Navy. • he b e Admiral ADAM explained, and expressed the high opi o eutertaiiieu Captain iterke , ey as an °nicer and a man* esto Lord INGESTBE would not detain the House long at t ',"„ t te hour, taut he could not but regret the party tone which this ":_4 sion had assumed, the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, the sec I to the Admiralty, was from beginning to end an antithesis ef f ' t ee and Whig. He thought that the coasideration of the state of to Navy was a subject of national interest, which " 1 "0., be discusied independently of any thing like party considers don of crews tie did not mean to quarrel with any particular adnlini_trfoood with respect to the Navy, although to a certain degre e I'', C ity's fault with them all. He certainly quarrelled with her llft,stl. economist and cheese-parer General, the Hon. Member for ;4 kenny —( A laugh.) The Hon. Secretary of the Admir alty bet stated that they had more ships in commission than fortrle rl Y' t to he had forgot to add what their position was with re s P ec oil foreign nations, that they had a colony in a state of revolt,t. that France and Russia had incre a sed their naval force. 1 1,: e o at the returns, it appeared to him that while the number o' 0 01 voted had increased, the number at home had decreased. l ie W ;r of mention a few years' illustration of that. In 1823. the numbo seamen and marines voted was 25,000, and the number of te e ete e home was 9,500. In 1528 the number of seamen and nesti e e es spay was 30,000. In 1833 the number voted was 29,000, and tee, was ber of men at home was 9,639. I n 1834 th e number voted to 27,000, and the number at home was 2,564. In 1835 the ntt ros6 voted was 25,500, arid the number at home was 0 ,539. I° 4 " 6/• the number voted was 32,700 and the number at -home was ;Ze Last year the number voted was 33,000, and the numbe r a n , - trd was 5,254. The year 1792 had been referred to, and it ap p e 1 that that year the number of men voted was 14,000, w hi ` e die t ese had 11 guardships ready to proceed to sea. In 1838 the 'lie of men voted was 31,500, and they had only three 11 11 '1 .- tioli and one about to be launched. With respect to the die t ', - eist of the 21 ships of the line in commission, it apPe er `; the there were three on the home station, ten sail of the the 'ine in the Mediterranean, one at Lisbon, tie° O- csdit , West India station, two at the East Indies and„Yob' , and three disposable. What then became of their nine dial' -e„lesb ships ? He would like to know where they were when the ''''erf flag had been insulted at Vera Cruz in so unwarrantable a Of t he —(Hear, hear.) The sooner that subject was inquired `N i t ers' better for the dignity and the character of the country. ing sped to the manning of ships he thought that every shiPlo",ste sea should be ready for action the next moment, with all her Dais properly and efficiently manned. He bad commanded 3 ja- sett frigate two years ago, which vessels were considere-I th e 1 60 manned ships in her Majesty's service. The complement we' t oe men, and if they were all seamen it would do very well, hut ' t o were such a number of midshipmen and schoolmasters, so d ' tee ineffective men on board that they had only thirty-five or th' Ije six men for a watch in a ship of 600 tons burden' ereiss would now refer to some of the grievances of the soest Those of the men had been to a certain decreased ; but with re to petty offrcers serving in small ships it was a matter of ge nell 'o e plaint that they were receiving less pay than officers of th e e re rank in large vessels although the duty was much mo re In other services Captains were allowed cabin furniture, statiotlt;, and table money—all of which placed them in a better situatie'oeso our Captains Now he would make a brief comparison h e ! et oe , Captains of 7 years' standing, and Commanders of frigates of 24 m e I in the French, American and British services. A Fren ch tee fain of seven years' standing had for permanent pay 2401. a y e3 :;tioV table-money on the home station 14 a day—abroad 11. 10s. F lis e ecs , ' income was 687/. :._year abroad, at home, 6054 An M" ;I - 1,1 ,1 Captain had 730/ a-year—half pay, 5001. An English C1 1 1 ,4 ',: 0 the 390/.—half-pay, 1501. A Captain of a French frigate, We' I,oe , Commander in the service, had for pay 1701. a-year ; for " r A t money at home, 16s. a-day—abroad, '24s. total, 46 2 /. 1-16,es, home—abroad, 5804 An American Commander had 5004 s' y ' o r —half-pay, 3801. An English Commander had 3001. ',l,fre half.pay, 155/. There was, the same proportionate too, rence between the states of lieutenant and m idshly In other services the midshipmen had very o'loo and a decent aliowance for half-pay. The half-pay of an midshipman was about three farthings a day, paid quarter'''. A the foreign services the other ranks had double as much as rs ' is captain in our service could not, if he were a man of family , sea on receiving an appointment without considerable expelle e ' „el respect to the dock.yards, he had lately had an opportunity ofsae, that the men were almost entirely employed in keePi" hr going, and there was no strength in the ships in ordinary O r r i e ",. . 0 routine of the Dock-yard. If an increased force were cancel . ; ,t should find ourselvei most inconveniently situated here. I" girl cases the workmen in the Dock-yards were n ot ~,,nre• treated. They ought to have a superannuation ei l° Thof —(Hear, hear.) They felt too greatly annoyed at th e 0/ in which they were classed. Men of alrrost equa l l e ge' and merit we' e made to work against each other at different "os' Referring to naval architecture, he would ask the Galla nt Adn es opposite whether the Admiralty had not shown too much of a OO l ti..n .pmt in this department. Had not they expended 1, 500 ' ° ".0 0 on Captain Symmonds' ships, and that merely i n th e hulls o f fs t " ships, although it was notorious that Captain Symmonds' mod bad notAd succeeded at all. miral ADAMS—On the contrary they are the fines t 6jb Q t that ever floated. oe Lord INGESTRE—Did not the Gorgon steam frigate 0 %, badly that her lower deck ports had all to be taken in ? Th e men were also exposed to great privations. I n th e article 01 ' e re they were overcharged 191. per cent., and for tobacco WY ; s id charged Is. 7d. per lb., while the Go vernme nt bad 0 1,110 0 for the same m ore th an 6d. H e wou ld a sk the Admiral also why were not the returns respecting nave , - Lecture, which he moved for in June last, produced as yet r e rr Admiral ADA MS said they had to send abroad for some oral to turns. They had not procured all the information they desir ed: o 6 what they promised should be laid on the table to-morrow nig ht " Ile Noble Lord was completely mistaken respecting the Gorgoh j • bee had received a report from Lord John Flay, who commandeueetot which assured him, after giving a variety of most inter'-ogre details, that the Gorgon surpassed r,ny other man.of-war I° 4o Capt. GORDON moved that the House report progress and ow leave to sit again. Mr. WOOD desireo have the vte pass w. be flit' Captain GORDON— d t lf the vote no is taken now it can on l Y cussed after by items. t j Mr. HUME here observed that he had been called a skin--"" ha d a cheese-paring individual. Now all he had to say was tha t h def' rather be called a " skinflint" than a " skin back," he t' stood several Gallant Captains were called.--(Laughte:.) el 1° The House then resumed, and the Committee obtained l e° sit again. The Transfer of Aids' Bill was reported. e o' 4 Mr. R. STEUART moved that a Select Committee be eFV. e el c to consider and report to the House what steps it may be a y to take with respect to the present state of the Caledonian Co ,( the After a few remarks from Mr. MIME, the Cuarscetto a EICEIIEQUER, and Sir R. PEEL, the motion was agreed to. „mee t The following Committee was then appointed :—lNfr. er g ar Steuart, Mr. F. W. Grant, Mr. Hastie, Mr. Hope Johnel ° "Voe' George Clerk, Mr. Chalmers, Lord Viscount Sandon, „eel° burton, Mr. Philip Miles, Mr. W. 0. Stanley, Mr. A i ",l Tf Thompson, Mr. Dennistoun, Mr. Dunbar, Mr. Hutton, an Williams Mr. MARK (Coventry.) PHILLIPS moved for Returns of the C e l:c e Inquests held on the bodies of persons killed during the °cies o f years in the coal pits, lead and other mines, of the co un 'yor i " Northumberland, Cumberland, Westmoreland, Durban:4 sea Lancaster, Derby, and Stafford; distinguishing the age An of the persons killed, and the verdicts returned.—Ordered. The House adjourned at. One o'clock. SILVER TEA AND COFFEE SER , - i e ry , t • Cottage Pattern. Melon Pattern. King's p a t 0 Tea Pot ...£lO 15 0 £ll 5 0 .£l2 u 0 Sugar Basin 6 0 0 ...... ... 6 6 0. Milk Ewer . 4 0 0. 0 Coffee Pot .. 13 13 0 l3 13 0........ le v The same strongly Plate* with Silver Edges. 0 Tea Pot .... 2 10 0 2 18 0 8 10 0 Sugar Basin 2 4 0 ... 2 8 0 2 14 , 0 Milk F.wer . 1 16 0........ 2 0 0 2 'w 0 Coffee Pot .. 218 0......... 3 0 0 S 1 9 , ats The ground floor, also the first, second, and third d 0 1.„',0 • fitted up as Show Rooms. Selections may be mad* "," o es most extensive variety of both Silver and Plated Manuf&T'A 0 A Pamphlet with a detailed list of prices and dravvi r n a l e ett various articles, and also with drawings of the above !!, s olv may be had gratis, or will be sent in answer to post-pal l cation. ift itb' T. COX SAVORY, Working Goldsmith, Silv er.. fro ° and Watchmaker, 47, Cornhill, London (Seven PO' Gracechureh-street.) ... MONTHLY MILITARY OBITUARY. General Farmar, late R. Mar. Leamington. Lieut.-General R. Earl of Carnwath, London. Colonel the Hen. J. Maitland, C. 8., 32 F., Canada- Majors—Lang, 13 Dr., East Indies ; APCrumroiri , Chat ham. o 7 i•t Captains—Atkinson, 13 Dr., East Indies ; Manly , oar.; sea; Vicar, R. Eng., Alullingar ; O'Neill, late of 11.tt~ 11, Jervis, h. F. ditto; Turner, late 3 R. Vet. Bn. ; 1 3 i e 2 B. Vet. Corn. ; Brook, h. p. 3 W. I. Reg. ; Brooke, Unatt., Southampton. ), F'e' Lieutenants—Tyers, 4 Dr., Bombay ; White (AdJ Armstrong, 21 F., Vasse, Perth, W. Australia; Dl IW' (Adj. ), 49 F. Hazareebaugh, Bengal ; Surtees, 52 r ' ' foci' badoes ; Halliday, 2 W. I. Reg., at sea on passage bor ae Honduras; Guyon, h. p. R. Mar. ; Harries, h. p. 51.2 Gds. ; Chas. Smith, h. p., 33 F. ; A. Scott, h. P• Gregory, h. p„ 78 F. Second Lieutenant and Ensign—Mein, 74 F. St. L ucia ; Williamson, h. p. R. Mar. Dlsk e ' Medical Department—Surg. Dr. M'Creery, 9 ; 61 F. ; Bush, h. p. 93 F. ; Lear, h. . 3 Vet. .„" n *D . Campbell, h. p. Staff; Assist. S urg . Hopkins , 7 4 r•_, nica ; Di. J. J. Hume, Staff, Wi n d sor , U pp . Canada, co•o! Memorandum—The d ea th o f Li eutenan t JameS Ay re Costobadie, of the 70th R eg i men t o f F oot, was erroneou s • ported in the Army List for .January last. mmellow.""" of B. lad/ On the 3d inst., at Claren c e THS -crescent, Windsor. the ;913 Lieutenant Munro, of the Royal Horse Guards ( 131 ` 1 " dahter. On the Ist inst., at Do rse t-t errace Mrs. Edwar d Crockug f:: o, be of a son. , On the 2d inst., at B u l s t ro d e - stree t, Manchester-squat.e lady of E. Baker, surgeon, of a son. MARRIED. Rainy, Esq., On the 16th u lt., at Gourock. house, Renfrevrshire, G lle woo. oa eor of Liverpool, to Margaret Janetta Lo uisa. 1 , pd daughte r of Lieuenant-General Darroch, of GouroeN Daims. DIED. On the 25th ult., at S;. Omer, Frederic , son of ' l3°l's Peirse, Esq. -foole' On the 26th ult., at; Tenterden, the Rey. Samuel '- Rector of Poplar, aged 82. • - of London Printed and Published by NI URDO Yt )) ',d 'ff No. 112, Strand, at Me Sun ()ince, N o . 112, Stv a '" this eounty of Middlesex.— Thursday, March 7, 3 .-~' EVENING EDITION. THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, MARCH 7, 1839 EVENING EDITION.