The Sun. — London, England, 1803-12-10 00:00:00

. insufficient.tcrinstrna themin military discipline: This was an Opinion which he Would not adviance so . eprititlently, if he wcre'not- 6)Pfinned - by the authO.' ~rity of :military men, and eveti•by• the opinion of • Government, Who' Only' . ao Adjutant- to Corps who exercised for 8¢ daysin the year.. But • ,even in. jhese cases their was an unfurtunate condi, ; tiOo annexed, viz. that white 84 dayi'service Was' required, only 20 tl ! tys pay was allowed. He knew too much,of the spirit and patriotism of the People • ' of this Country not to know, that in a time of enter ! . • tericy, ant danger, they would, without hesitatian, ser.ve without ,pay. But it would be too . much to , expeiff, that men should be taken year after year.: • away from their business and occupations without. giving them Pay. Therefore if it . was absolutely necessary that the Volunteers shnUld be exercised more ihan'tiverity d4yN . they ought .certainly to be. •,.. allowed pay,.Wipt the number of days Were which . it would be necessary - for' the Volunteer Corps to be out he did know, but' he should think that less • than eighty,four days would be sufficient., but cer.: tainly more Than twenty daYs Were necessary.: . He should think 'about - forty or fifty days. Perhaps fifty days 'for next !year ' , and forty for the ing years. Speaking thus generally, it Must be obvious that he could not be very • accurate in his estimate, of the expense, but prnbably . it Would, amount to between 3 and 400,0001. making toge:. ther with the former sum altogether, about soo,oool. Aid if for that sum you could 'Maintain a Forceof.' • very near 4.0ch000 men in gradual and efficient pro, grrsg, he would assert, without the danger of coo: . • tradietion, that it 'would.bi the cheapest part of the whole expenditure. Witho looking 'to More tant_aperations, suppose, contrary , to- all probabi. lity,. the Enetny should escape the 'vigilance of our _Fleets, and .attempt a landing, in Ireland, if the • Volunteer Force. was matured, a large part of the Regular Artny might be detaChed there, And surely • we could never he :aid to have provided effedually ftir our own security until we had placed otirC . • selves in the situation of being able to, send a , large Regular Aitny to Ireland if circumstances should require tt. No.man could place a more per.. - feet'relisnee than lie ,did un the national spirit and valour of go g lioltnen, but great as that valour was, the safetruf the Cottnt . ry ought not to be risked tipooir, when not Wattled by .discipline and sys. tem, nor placing the twist perlea reliance upon the native couragenf the i) . ople . of this Country, wOtild it be site to detach' a .large 'Pan - of the regular . Arnie until the Volunteers had attained that . degree of perfection which he had deseiibed. • He believed . • there was . not it man who 'heard him who 'did' not concUr with. - hirn in thinking, that . if the Enemy . -wire to make an'atiempt oporiour coast, ;:nd that - they were to rill, at, he had no doubt they would— • if then they Were to, carry the WO to, the COnti, • stew, the e . lr-gt of winch probably would be to yrouse those who were now in a state lethargiC supineness, and' to inspire "them 'with the hopes of regaining their liberty, by alieWing therit . the Kett of vigorous resistance ; if under such circumstances a British Army' could be seasonably applied for. the Purpose ofd aiding in .effi;tting a, general Change io the state of !the Continent-4f it enrich afford ibe,,means of rescuing .Ylal.-..sgy' s Electoral Dominions from the tyranny u t if it Couhl • • •be the means of pro.duciog• that spirit in the Nations of . Fairnpe that would tend ,to the delive.once•of Holland, Was there a man, •he asked '.who w,:up differ from him in dill:king that the spirit of the Country, high .as it now iS4V; ought. not to' be turned to account by the ineans.he. lied mentioned • ... It at this expense these.objeas could be attained, thicexpenite ha thought we ought. without baits tion to incur, and not to think, ufE economy (how-- ever valuable it was in itself.) when pin in comper' tittoo with such service. lie owned therefore that . • would•givi! him great satisfildiun to find that his ideas On thi s sabjett were adopted, by .the.fl o use, i! and ad=apted as .4..,L11* possible,—We had f nne.-throogh the ,in-s'r tVinger ou s p art o f t hi s year , • ) . 1 1.4. c.tgo•ickiit.peri ov i 01_ kinter.weA.ontoot to re ) • kslitst.outi.esiertioos, hut at .the same:little there tsr4ts-, overy,raikego to think that'during a period when ;he ports,of,Holland would ,be ,closed up hl' the Fryst, the danger 'cif lny.ks; oo : would be less thanit bad • been for some months. If then there was any iotert,d of comparati se security, it ought, to be used in ,the hest. and . Artist effretual mantis". be. fore Sprieg r 4l, it should be ,thought right to ap. . point those Cilkers, that he . had suggested, ..they , ought to•be anointed immediately, that they might i. tu •beene acqqainted width . the- Corps an d wi t h, the .• ' Officers witti whorn.they were to act--S,, that when the Spring, cattle might he ready for service. With, this view, lie should be glad that on this day, thaevents before they separated fur: the It:et:as s . t•. they . should vote such an, additional sum ea would be necessary for the -great objects to which be had alluded—These were the'4lily points whiAs in. his opinion called for iltlttiCtilate alteration •" thtra might be .maoy other thip of which he did not A PP r P , vP , reserye`them for futitre sitleration;.bot„wittt regard to` the poiots he had • mentioned, if, they were right at all, they ought to be adopted without the delay of an hour. There were several other points relatin r to' the Volunteerswhich r equ i re d touch considerati o n but were not of. * 0 ! Presling4' nature sta.,to render .it necessary to go at present . into the . diiettsiion of them. If the, ,HOuse should agree . ' with, hint lin thinking that the Fit:M-Officers and AdjUt . ants Ought to be appointed, st ill s he was of opinion that the obj ect he hittl,ittview, could not be attained meielx . '4y . t . he iniertiAinn tht)seOffieers, without the adoption' Of some. regulations which would ensure punduil at. letidance, which would keep up their numbeih and give the,rn those habits amid" that steadl. • ; ne t necessary ..for Soldiers, certainlY he did . not Law,. but those- regulationi•which' would produce !host effects and thrise habits to which hehad - a11034.. Ike theiefoie tho_Llght that looking, as_.we ought to look, to a Ica * WU, timot,to take the earliest , opportunity me i rti v uir maintainin g it fur a length of time. We 1141(1 Ken what the ardour of the Country had !done, tinder the appearance of immediate danger; perhaps th ' e .appearance of tiefenee Whichlt had already 84 ewn$ might' produce . tll:it , 'which might fairly be. considt r e d as a triiittpli,-. 7 -perhaps it alight. make the. L'emy, at, Press,!!, renounce his isty) . solt as jun. fro ,ttetlale.,, a.: l / 4 1 „to 'the; eyes . of Europe, that after the parade of Inva. sion,s slier coming to reconnoitre our Coasts, 'fie found. them .unattaekable.—Great as that tri .tnels 'would he , we. ought..'to- temper it. with the leeoliedion pf what might happen afterwards ; we . ought never to forget, with whom we werecontend. big. He might decline- the attack for the present, . butHaccompany it with a determination to resume theattack at a future period, without. giving so much waroing.. We ought not always to calculate Litton. having' eight or ten months giveg to us to prepare er his .reception.• Rut in proportion as men might indulge-in congratulation, csnseing the, Enemy baffled in his attempts, in the,samedegreeit was to ~be apprehended:that when the,. danger, was withdrawn, that spirit would be suffered to; linger and'ittoulder for a time, though it certainly would not be- extinguished., and then the Country might be.called upon to meet the- sudden but long.metii. wed attempt of ,the Enemy. It. should he their peat objea to prevent that spirit from subsiding,' and in doing so they would • not chew any diyrust of the people, because they would only be think. ing for them by the great, Council of . the . Na. don. It would be the .boenden duty of Parlia. ment to take ,care to .prevent the possibility that any temporary termination of the danger should lead to the disbanding of that Force on which the safety of the Country depended. Perhaps, something like the compulsory mt of last Ses. sion :should be adopted, and to be. in force during every period of the war, not with a view alone to keeping up numbers, however important that might be, but to pittiftnal attendance and that subordiea. 'don which Is essential to progressive improvement. It might be proper, therefore, to provide, that no person should ne permitted to withdraw from a Corps withent the most substantial grounds, without 0b... raining the leave of his Commanding (Nicer, and providing, a proper Stibstitute. Though all these regulations might be proper, he did nut mean that , they were, so pressing in their nature' that they ought to be adopted before. the Recess, There was :another point connekted - with the subjed then tinder' 'disCussion, on which be would' only detain the Com. Mime a few minutes---He meant Ile:, f (Itittg which Volunteers stood with regaid to He would not now inquire Why this point had re. mained so long doubtful, or the L a w did ri„t now stand as it did at first upon hutj . :4t —.But he that as it might, by the Law nett , sCood, no Volun. teer was entitled to exemption whit had uota . regular • Certificate of 24. days service before tta asst Sept. delivered to him previous to that . time. 'ibis he believed was nut generally Understood, but it purely, could not be' inter t litedwho had served the twenty - .four days, in ~,tlti fro/ nr not understanding the All had neglected t) obtain their certificates, slwold not have their exemptions, - or - would it be "mid that those who had beeri accepted since that time, and who had served the 24. days should not be entitled to their exemptions; certainly that could • not be the I n t e n t ion of iris Isaljesty's Ministers. He thought the brit;,t way would be to pass some short Rxefivatot:, •,•1 upon the stibiA previous to the Recess. There was another point respelling el. emptions which required come explanation--the. Alt listed' that Volunteers should not he entitled to their exemption finless they mustered and 'exercised, a mini , ' tiugnixt of days with alms. Now in many G,Neroment had riot a sufficient . . number of Jos to, s upply them. He did not mention this as a !natter of blame, because considering the immense number of men, that ,were mite armed in England and Ireland, it was riot surprising that they 'had not sufficient arms in readiness at once, but it. would not be contended that those who were ready to receive their arms, and who were adually drilled in march. ing, ought not, to have their exemption. - He was glad to find from the manner in which this ohsetva. lion was received, thatsuch was not the intention of Ills MajeStrs Ministers. At all events these points ought.not to he left in obscurity, and he hoped that beto re the adjournment these doubts would be cleared toi by an explanatory Mt. These were all the ob. s ervations,' With ,which he wished to trouble the Committee; and he apologizedfor having taken up so much of their time. Wltatever might be his opinion respelling many parts of the cooduCt of His nijcsty's Ministers, he woulti T abstain from enter.. ing into them at present, because he was determin ed to mix no consideration of that kind with the great question of national defence. He would wily' atouble the' toMmittee with one word more, and that .was upon the subjea of the Sea ,Fericibles upon which; his ,Rt. Hon; Friend had made some observe. (ions, He should certainly agree with hid) that if the Stm Fericibles were composed of that class of men who. were liable to he impressed into His Majesty's Sea "twice, it would, not only. be an neeless but an im. proper institution. If they were only to stand be. hind batteries with pikes in their bands, it would undoubtedly be absurd. But the main objedl for . which they were. employed was to lierve ; agqat on board the Gunboats, for which, they were pe. culiarly qualified, and lie lamented that' there was not more expetlitiOn in the Nye!! Depart. merit in equipping those vessels, of which there were very numerous offers. In this point of view nothing' could lie more useful 'than this body Of men, because it 'brought into altivity ' those Who could .nnt'be employed on Waal Ships in' the Navy, and who being chiefly Pilots and ,Fishermen, could not be permanently liken from their families. He had rid doubt , but they would in their Gim.boats Ma ititain a most decided superiority over the boasted Fletilla of the. Enemy,, and therefore,: instead of counting thicinlui nothing, as his Right Hon. Friend had doee, he ; Itioked upon Mein as one of the most !likable parts of our Force, and he was sure they would not disappoint the ,expectations that. were formed of them. lie would not, at present ! , enter . field into any wider` eld of disdis'sion t ,litit When they Cattle to that part of the &Mentes, he woOld pro. po'e the Refolutione he had alluded to, - Air . Seeretaty YO K observed, that, the. Right k-lciii;Getilleman (Mr, girt)' had urged iheneces. si ty Of voting more money-than nose:proposed fur tti* service of - the Volunteers,' in:order to make Olen!, as he advised,. more petfeet, by means of the addition of a Field Officer and an Adjutant, arid he had stated his convietion thit this would have a very . ,good effe4. He wished with the Right .Hori.' Gentlemen' that this important force should be made as complete as the nature of it was capable, consist. antsy at the same time whit necessary economy.' .11ut he could not . help observing on that s9hji!et) that time would be necessary to consider this mat ter before it should he adoptei. ail the- Corp+ Adjutants were allowed pay ; but it could not be .contended that they, should be.allowed pay for the wick year, it they had to attend only eighty-four days, as stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman.. and Government should not rashly run into this sort of expence. The, last 4Et ofrParlianient made _upon-this subjeti provides, that the Volunteer Corps should hCsubjett to such Regulations as His . Majesty _ t o mu ld c hi n k 1 - , t t o , make, and .the compulsory clause, in the Aft for calling out the Mass, might be re. fared to as occasion should require. He observed, 1 1 that although twenty days pay was to be allowed to those who had been trained for. twenty days, yet they were not to be allowed it uoless they. had been . trained and exercised on, the Sunday preceding,— And most of !he Volunteer Corps hail been exec. cised 40 asil-podoys, and many of them much more. Now 411 the Volunteer Corps bad not only lants upOn their . Establishment, but they were en. ,titled to pay, yet they were not entitled to pay until called out ; and upon the principles of econo. my, he, did not think that Government would be justified in granting them permanent pay, , unlesi their attention to the station was permanent. It could not be expetted that they should receive pay for the whole year, for 84 days, any more than for forty Q cfor twenty days. He thought, however, that whet was stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman de. servesigreat consideration. He said he wished to be careful of incurring great expence; he did nos say it war ati expence that might not to be incurred, although the price was stated to besot:40001. It certainly was not absolutely necessary to be voted tonight, because the 'present Resolution proposed • to the Committee, if adopted al. it stood, would not preclude the 'other from being adopted after. wards ;' for it might he voted at any time, as a sum of money tin ace mot of the Volunteer Serviee, and that, if necessary. might be very easily granted but that would be improper now, not only because it war not Clear ;hat 'the plan was eligible, al. though he did not say it was not, but also be. caitse the exr . nce of the Volunteer Corps as it (rands at present' is not yet well ascertained ; for these reasons he should : hope that the Right Ho. nourible Gentleman would nor persist in this plan for the present. • With regard to the advice of the ; Right 110 Gen t I c itta n with reaped to the Counties,Matititsie that . ' they should have a larger • proportion Of Volunteers . than 'the Inland . Counties, .it hail 'l,-en already adopted, he - did- not know whether to the full 'extent • or in exaa.pro., portion that they ought to be in each particular in. -stance, but Certainly to a very considerable extent. In De.Vonaliire, for instance, there were not less thaw t 1,000, exclusive of Plymouth and the Dock. The lame 'might be 'said 'of Portsmouth. At to Kent,' there was a difference of opinion ; it appeal. , eki,.however,' that from td to ti,ooo had been fabled there., beside the of the 'Cintple-Ports,• tome of which wor! ac x, as 'the Comtnitve kneW, but in all the, - • .1 to cod° mew; so that the Volunteers in the .only of Kent were not less 'than 1 . 5.0450 men, This, he apprehended, 'would shew: the COmmittee that- the Maritime Coiltities. in the South of the bland had been, allowed to rake Volunteers in a manner suit. able to the distinetinn 'stated by the Right' Ho nourable Gentleman So again in' the Counties of Cumberland and Otarltam, and those Olt extended to that part of the Coast,.there was a greater mint. iver of Volunteers raised than .in other Counties ; 'not that the Inland Counties were scanty, but the. Maritime Counties were abundant in' the number of 'Volunteers. Now, on the subject of. Exemp tions, it was a subje4V on' which he should not en. ,ter.into detail: there had been doubts entettained, ond these doUhts arose Out of the Aft of Patna. went ; snme'of which doubts, .he ' could not' help ' were'occasioned by those w ho 'had not read the Bill. Some of these points he had stated.- However, if these doubts, were so considerable as he apprehended,them to•he,'!it would 'be proper,. even beiore the Recess, chat a Bill shotild be brought in to remove those doubts.' He then proceeded to exploits what he understood to be the operation of the Army of Reierve as it bore on' the subjed al. bided to by - those who had already spoken, and then repeated,. that as he understood a considerable' ntrttsber of 'Gentlemen Wished to have the matter of Exemption of the Volunteer Corps' better explained than it is at present, lie should propose 'to bring in a Bill for that purpose, and observed, that he should propme it before the Recess ; for he thought it essential to remove doubts upon that lubjeet. Mr, Wirrotiom explained what he inrant in that part of his spec& which adverted to 'Sea Fencibles, to refer only to the places in which they were to be be employed : all he wanted was, .that they should Ica employed in proper 'places, and for proper put. poses, ' ORENTILLE said, that when he came down to 'the House he intended doing as his Right flori.,Friend (Mr. WiNottOtst) had done, that of considering the present as a fair opportunity . fur .reviewing the whole of the conduet of Administra. Lion respetling the defence of The Country since the time that salted* had been discussed in that House last Session of Parliament, and upon that subjett ' he must set of with observing, 'that he was •not under the necessity of enlarging much uptin many of the topics which had been brought forward by his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Witinit Ma); for they alb hitherto remained unanswered. He observed, that when his Right Honourable reia. 'tiOn (Mr.. PITT) 'spoke, (whose late absence from` the House, which was 'Unavoidable, he laniented), he was attended to . With the respea his superior • talents excited, • lie 'had wished to confine the ,titteniion ofilte Wise - tiiivisat was fit to be done in future, without any reference to the past. This sentiment of his Righi Honourable %dation einbar. raised him a little, because the lesiva for the quer. tee froni whence it came,4tatle him lament'lltal he' could trot atiopr the sentiment. The quesiion' now before thiCotnmittee way, to consider the Volunteer Corps as a' force to enable Government to - dis i nose -of th em to any purpose Fps Majesty might' deem expedient: Now he slid not conceive it possible to form kcArretiopinion° up 'n that subjea, without cb r i s i&iii tz • .b o * . t he Regular' Army 'cith exist a long - tune -in this Country, c nisistently with the' present system- of the Volunteer Corps ;, many "of the doubtslie entertained were ni - that nature. He admitted that the rivire',discip7ine the Vo!uureet Corps had, the more efficient they would be ; hilt if they were to be substituted let the Artny, as his Right. Hott,'Relation stated, .he was 'apprehensive that' the Recruiting of •the -Army would become quite impossible. • Hr expatiated oh thii and other topics at considerable length, end disapproved net of the Volunteer Corps being raised, but of the manner in which he conceived the Regular Force had been interrupted in the Recruiting. He oh. served, that he could net agree to the idea of con fining the discussion of to. night to the subject of disciplining the Regular Corps, He conceived, o the contrary, that the most important thing to be attended" to for the true interest of the Country at present, was that of pursuing means for augmenting the Regular Army, and he apprehended that this was more likely to diminish, than increase t h at Army. 'We might be exposed to such danger in Ireland as to be obliged to Send a regular force there. We might also have occasion before this War was over to send an Aimy again to Egypt, to ob ta i n , be *taped, the same laurels as they had gained already there: bur all thin append to him to be impossible, according to the system at pre. sent adopted. He took occasion to observe, that the Army of Reserve being raised by such immense bounties, must interfere with the recruitingin the Regular Army; and besides this, he conceived the Army of Reserve and those of the Regulars to be is very improper mixture, for thin mine, that one man who lied received a bounty only of 81. or zol. and who , was bound to go to any part of the world, and to tontinue in the arevice'for life, would have an ether by,ltie side who had received '504 bounty, anitiVho ; was nut beend to out of. this 'dead, nor to continue his serices longer than the present,W ar . The one o f these 'wOuni naturally laugh at the other. With regard to the at for regulating Volunteers, it was SO . defittive, that many very ernellterlships were frit by Volunteers, !He stated the case if same Volcw.,ers who had ex. ctelsed i‘,.days without arms. 'Lite Lord Licuie- . met ailVjeed them nor to train any mare until they had attnsitfitr that otherwise they would toile the benefit of the Att,.which required that they should I k ai/e been trained with arms tot apart of this time. , They accordingly desisted for. the four days wait. ing for arms, but they' got none. In the mean time, they were ballotted in for the Militia, and when they claimed their exem,itian as Volunteers, they could not be exemeted thus they lost their exemptions, not byany ad of their own, but by the at of ;Government. This shewed the 'absolute inc. cessity of reeisig , this A.R. He recommended' a revision of all the measittli of Govermitent in Mill. tars Aft i rs: Mr. P ITT explained. . - • • Lux.!C4STLIiRE4GfI entered into a very long' - defence.of the_coneurt of Administration since the/ commencement of the present War. Ile admitted that it was perfedly fair to canvass the whole orate : measures of Goiernment previoui to the voting a SUM of money of w`ich they were to' have the dii; tribution. That it isaobe expected that Mini s te r . should satisfy the House they hail` not negleded their duty iaatehigabey lied_ hitherto done, before they could ,exped the confiderree''Of the - /Liuse or of the PUblic. He went further, and most reaaily admitted that- n Administration had ever met so little, opposition in the Of so much general support ,out of it, by the zeal and public spirit of ;a ranks and descriptions of persons, as the present bed' hitherto !net. They were, therefore, • he was ready to admit, without excuse, if they had negleded to put tit,. Country in a proper nate to meet its present. exigency ; bat he apprehended it would . not appear that they had, when he came • to state what had beenalone since the commence ment of the present,. War. It •was urged triumph. antly, that the Bounty of the Army of Reserve hint put an end entirely to recruiting. One fad'. wee • worth all the speculative reasoning that could- be made use of on this orany other subjed: Jr ap. reared in point of fed' that the Bounty of the Army of Reserve had only occasioned, for the - last two months, a diminution of one-third of the Recruiting Service for the Regulars. The truth , was, that money was not the only incentive to: men .to enlist in the Army, of which this- laft • was a proof. As to the state of our present' Force, the Noble Lord said, that a simple statement of it would -skew to the House 'whe. titer Ministers had been diligent or negligent...l. Our present Force stood thus :, In Great Britain the 'number of Volunteers, exclusive of: Officers, Was 34.0,000 men, and in Ir:lurid 70,000 men," making the Volunteer Force, Ralik and File 4.10,0013. The• Regulars were in Great Britain 120,000 IWO Rank and File. Taking the Force in Guernsey and Jersey, and' 'Regulars, Artillery, dec. the amount of which was -113o,ocio• men, the whole amonht was 590,000, exclusive of ze,006 Sea Fefreibles,- which he considered as part of the general Force for the Defence of the Country, i,,,,, a4 0 1 as they may eerve,on Lund as well as on Sea. He ask whether this was evidence, supineness in His Majesty's Ministers ? So that we had 'now a Force of between 600,000 and 700,000' men. There 'might he some delicacy perhaps in, speaking Minn this • subject, yet he thought the ' troth better he stated than concealed upon this as well as on every other Ma. sion. - Them were stlme of the Volunteers who had not yergot their arms, but the number who had been trained, and at present armed, were in Great Britain 350,000 men, and in Ireland t 20,000, making in all . 470,610 armed with firelo c k s; in this he did not ikiclude the a s.aDoo Sea Feneibles, nor did he include any pikes that were to he given to Volunteers, which itneunfed to 70,000 MUM ut primps nearer 80,000.- There would be new left fr nn ;about 130 to 150,000, yet to arm in this Ccuntry.= Besides, there was a great store of :qt.'s' now ready to be delivered as mew be ju t ! Je d expedient, besides the' 326,000 'Staii'd of arms that had been provided 'slime the commence. Menu of this War. Nor. was: this all, . for the Ordnance had kept pace with this adivity, which was greiter than ever-had been known in any for mer period-; for, as lit had stated, not less than 350,c,n0 itend'Of Met had- been• issued since the commence.