The Sun. — London, England, 1839-07-30 00:00:00

~. "F JS) ~f 47t, rot+.l)---" !( ' ~III~'• an, EVENING EDITION. -~~ igat he bed never made use of the expressions that had >en attributed to him by the Hon. Member for Newry. lie had never said that he would pass by what he had 4ated with contempt. What be had sta t ed was, that he ould take no notice of the observations which had been made by the Hon. Member. Mr. ELLIS thought there ought to have been some intimaticn given of the third reading of the Bill. After a few o bservations from Mr. F. FRENCH, Mr. B ROT lIE RTON said that what had taken place, showed how salutary it was to adjourn at twelve o'clock. Sir E. SUGDEN said that Bills of equal importance had been passed through in the same manner. After a great contest in that House he happened to hear about one o'clock one morning the words " now read a third time." On inquiry he was told it was the Copyhold Enfranchisement Bill.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He im mediately interposed to prevent the third reading taking place, and the Honourable Member for Honiton, who, he believed, had charge of the Bill, postponed the third reading. But on the very first opportunity, land when he (Sir Edward Sugden) was absent, the Bill was, at a late hour of the night, and just under the same cir cumstances, read a third time and passed.—( Hear, hear.) A more important Bill, affecting as it did a great portion of the property of this country, never passed the House, and yet that Bill was never discussed, and had gone to the other House of Parliament without the opinion of that House having been expressed. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that ample nctice had been given that the Bill would be read a third t im e on the Wenesday evening. It was read soon after eleven o'clock, when he believed the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman was employed at the great festival in the City.—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—but that was not a sufficient excuse why the Bill should have been further postponed. Sir ROBERT PEEL was present when an understand jag was come to one night at a late hour, that his side of the House were not to offer any obstruction to the pro gress of Bills that were not contested, and that the Govern meut should not press any Bill in respect of which notice of opposition had been given.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. G. W. HOPE had watched the Copyhold Enfran chisement Bill very closely, and there certainly was an un derstanding at one stage of the Bill, there should be a full discussion. That Bill certainly had been hurried through the House, and with so much haste was it got through Committee, that the clause for giving salaries to the Corn missioners was absolutely left out.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) When the Bill was called on for a third re ad ing on Wednesday evening, he (Mr. Hope) was present, and stated that many Members wished to discuss the Bill, but the Honourable and Learned Attorney-General begged of the Hon. and Learned Member for Honiton, (Mr. Stewart) on no account to let slip that opportunity of passing the Bill.—( Loud cries of " Herr, hear.") The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said no one in the House offered any objection to the Bill. The most ample opportunity was afforded to the Honourable and Learned Member opposite (Mr. Hope), of making any observations, had he thought fit to have done so. He did not do so, nor did he divide the House upon it, arid there was not the silghtest reason for complaining of the manner in which the Bill had been passed.--( Hear, hear.) Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said that a very inconvenient practice had grown up, and was persevered in, of bringing on measures at such time in the morning, that it was impossible for Members, even if they were prevent, to pay proper attention to the subject. On Friday last, he had directed the attention of the Noble Lord to the Bastardy Clauses in the Poor-law Bill, and he was told by the Noble Lord that there was not the slightest chance of the Poor-law Continuance Bill being proceeded with tbat evening. However it was proceeded with that even ing, but at a very late hour.—( Hear, hear.) He was ex. ceedingly friendly to the principle of the Bill, but still he regretted that the Bill was proceeded with without his being present, as he had wished to have suggested ye. rious points, but which would not at all have delayed its progress. He did not accuse the Government of decep tion, but he thought it was inconvenient to bring on mea sures at so late an hour. Mr. B ROT HE RTON hoped the House would benzin mind that this was one of the ill effects of midnight le gislation. Lord JOHN RUSSELL.—The Noble Lord having referred to him, would first observe with regard to the practice which the Noble Lord had stated had grown up, that he ( Lord Jelin Russell) thought the practice now was far less common than formerly. Formerly the prac tice was carried to a much greater extent of proceeding with Bills at a late hour. With regard to the Bill to which the Noble Lord had alluded, he (Lord J. Russell) bad understood that there was a general concurrence on the part of the House, that the Bill should be read a se cond time thaf. evening. The Noble Lord had stated he did not mean to oppose the second reading ; and he (Lord J. Russell) thought it would be going too far to postpone every stage ef every Bill merely because a Member who had observations to make on a Bill, but did not oppose it, was not present.—( Hear, hear.) Lord G. SOMERSET had left on Friday night in consequence of the Noble Lord saying it was improbable the Bill would be read a second time that night. . IRISH ES I'IMATES. Lord CASTLEREAGH said it would be extremely convenient to many Honourable Members to know when the Irish Estimates were likely to be brought on. Mr. BARING observed, it was difficult to say when the House would allow him to do so ; but he would endeavour to fix a particular day, and give notice to the House. POSTAGE. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented a petition from the paper manufacturers and wholesale and retail sta tioners of Edinburgh and its vicinity, stating that they ap proved of the uniform penny postage, but that they disap proved of stamped envelopes or stamped paper, and prayed the House that the same facilities of sending letters, either paid or unpaid by post might still b C afforded. Sir E. SUGDEN presented a petition to the same effect from the stationers of Ripon. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the Mechanics' Institution of Dublin in favour of the Govern ment plan o+ penny postage. TREATMENT OF UNTRIED PRISONERS. On the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, moving the oder of the Day for the third reading of the Postage Duties Bill, Mr. LEADER said he hoped the House would not object to takin g into consideration the petition of the prisoners confined in Warwick Gaol, and the allegations of the Magistrates in answer to that petition. It would occupy but a few minutes, and as the character of the Magistrates and prisoners were et stake, it was necessary this matter should be disposed nf. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said, the Orders of the Day took precedence of notices of motion, and therefore he did not see howlthey could v"..s'at the orders and rules of the House by hearing the on. Gentleman's motion first. Mr. LEADER observed, that the Noble Lord had violated the rules of the House one day last week, by moving an Order of the Dav on the the only notice night that was left to private Members. He hoped the House would allow him to make his statement on behalf of the petitioner... Sir EARD LE Y WILMOT wou'd add his supplication to that of the Hor. Member for Westminster, that this metter might be al o red to he disposed of at once. He had been kept in ovn in consequence of this notice of motion, although 1 e ought that day to have been on the Grand Jury at Warwick. The discussion could not oc cupy the House long. Mr. LEADER—WouId the Noble Lord allow it to come on before the next Order of the Day or before the Supply ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL saw no reason for setting aside the Orders of the House for this particular petition. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE inquired what Bills the Noble Lord meant to proceed with that evening. Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that after the Postage Bill he proposed proceeding with, the Public Works (Ire land) Bill. If that did not create any discussion, his Hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would then bring in the Bills relating to the Irish Banks. He also wislicd to proceed with th© Poor-law Act Continuance Bill, and the Birmingham Police Bill. Mr. O'CONNELL begged to state that he should oppose the Irish Banking Bills in every stage. Mr. LAW inquired when it was the intention of the Government to go on with the Metropolitan Police Courts Bill ? Mr. FOX MAULE.—On Wednesday. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that after the Bills he bad mentioned, he proposed the House should go into a Qamruittee of Supply. Mr. WA KL E Y asked if the grievances of the people were to be discussed at all in that House ?—( Hear, hear.) Last Tuesday night the Noble Lord persisted in pressing this Birmingham Police Bill, and setting aside all notices, so that the petition of Lovett and Collins could not be brought forward. In the House of Lords the debate upon that petitidn—in the hereditary branch of the Legislature— occupied seven columns and a half of the newspapers, while his Hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, in presenting it to this House, was- interrupted half a dozen times, and the observations occupied only half a column. It was right that the people should understand whether their grievances should be discussed in this House or in the House of Lords.—( Hear, hear.) Under the present regulations it was impossible to obtain redress in this House.—(Hear, hear.) So many obstacles were opposed to the bringing on notices of Members, or to the discussion of grievances on petitions—( Hear, hear, from Lord Cas tlereagh) —the people might as well " whistle to the winds" as conic to this House for redress ; and for his part he hoped his Hon. Friend the Member for Westminster would bring his motion on upon the next Order of the Day. Lord CASTLEREAGH wished it to be understood that petitions in that House could not be debated on pre sentation ; in the House of Loads they could.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. DIVETT thought the general opinion out of doors was, that they talked a vast deal, and did very little.— ( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Sir E. WIL MOT wished the motion to come on as soon as possible, to vindicate the ch aracter of the Warwick. shire magistrates. Colonel SIBTHORP suggested that a large board churches, stating bo stuck up , like those hung up at parish stating what business was to be brought on each night. — (Laughter.) Mr. D. BROWN said the motion tight have been di scu ssed, while they were disputing upon it. Why did not the Hon. Member for Westminster move the adjourn ment of the House.—(Roars of laughter.) Mr. LEADER finally said he would not interfere on the Order next coming on, but would persist on the Bin snigham Police Bill. POSTAGE DUTIES' BILL. On the Order of the Day being read for the third read ing of the Postage Duties' Bill, Sir R. PEEL said this Bill gave full auqiority, as he understood, to the Treasury for effecting the object which they had in view, either by applying a stamp to the letters, or by means of an envelope, or by making use of stamped coves. He wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman if he had as yet been able to give such consideration to the subject as would enable him to state whether a gelieral or a partial experiment would be made before the House again met. This was a subject of the utmost importance because, if, in consequence of the measures which should be adopted, any diminution should take place in the se curity for the delivery of letters, it would act as a new en couragement to an illicit transmission : for although the re duction in the rates of postage would act as an encourage ment to the transmission of letters through the Post office, yet if, in consequence, any insecurity should arise in the delivery of them, the illicit transmission of them would necessarily be the consequence. The subject was of the utmost importance, and he wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether, before the Parliament met next Ses sion, any experiment, either partial or general, would have been made. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the Hon. Gentleman had asked him two questions. One, whether before Parliament again met any experi ment, either general or partial, would be made in relation to this subject. In reply to tbi§ question he could state 1 that he certainly did anticipate that, before Parliament again met, some experiments would be made on this sub ject. Had he not matured his plans so far' as to be able to make the experiment before the Parliament again met, he felt he should not have been acting fairly either by the House or the public in asking them to pass the prevent Bill. At the same time, it would not do to be precipitate. It was of the utmost importance that no diminution should take place in the security for the delivery of letters, not only on account of the reasons stated by the Right Hon. Baro net, but on account of the interests of the different com mercial interests connected with the subject. A petition bad been presented from his Hon. and Learned Friend the Attorney General from the paper-makers and stationers, showing how their particular trades would be affected if the experiment were made in one particular way. He could not say that he bad so fully considered the subject as to have made up his mind as to the precise mode in which this experiment was to be tried. He thought that the experiments that they were going to adopt might be carried into effect without any difficulty to either the paper or the stationery trade. Mr. WARBURTON thought the new plan would give greater security for the delivery of letters than they had at present. t Lord G. SOMERSET believed that newspapers a present were very improperly delivered. Sir E. SUGDEN said that some new mode ought to be adopted with respect to the transmission of money let ters. The present mode was extremely insecure. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the Money Order Office had now been made part of the Post Office, and therefore the greatest security was given. Sir E. 'SUGDEN knew of several instances where money had been taken out of letters under the present arrangement, and he thought the sooner some alteration was made the better. - Lord CASTLEREAGH wished to know what ar rangement had been made with respect to the transmission of newspapers. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that newspapers would still go as they had hitherto done free, provided they had covers open at both ends. Colonel SIBTHORP was anxious to know what tax was to be imposed in the place of the great reduction that was to be made. Mr. WALL ACE said as to sending money by post, it should be recollected that at present double postage was charged. The plan of registration had been tried five or six years in Ireland, at an expense to the Post-office per. fectly trifling. And it was worthy of notice that the letters might be registered, by a scheme which had been suggested, without any outward mark upon the letters. The whole machinery of the post-office was in preparation for putting the plan in course of experiment, and under the able superintendence of the Noble Lord the Member for Totnes, would doubtless, succeed. The Bill was then read a third time. On the question that it do pass— Sir R. PE EL said it was rather alarming—when it was answered to the fears of those who apprehended in security of the letters, that they would be as secure as papers now were—it was rather alarming to find that the papers were now more insecure than the letters—( Hear) —though there was a security for the papers which did not exist as to letters, for few persons did not expect the newspapers, whereas, the letter was often unexpected— the person not receiving the paper would go and inquire after it, but numbers, especially the poor, did not know when a letter was to come, and consequently would not be able to tell their loss. Care should be taken that no additional insecurity was admitted as to the delivery of letters, which would operate much more strongly than at present. He should not have objected to first trying the plan on the twopenny post in London, before the Govern- ment came to Parliament for the more general measure— ( Hear, hear)--but he did object, in the present state of the finances, to passing a measure calculated to cause great additional embarrassment, and vesting the Government with enormous discretionary powers, almost superseding the authority of Parliament. However, having done his duty in opposing the Bill, he would oppose no further ob struction to its passing. He would only sugest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer the importance of not throw ing greater difficulties, in the way of getting the stamps than were absolutely unavoidable. The trouble of asking for the stamp would be considerable. Then as to the registration, was it to be universal ? If so, would it not be inconvenient to have to wait till a letter:was registered in every case— if it were to be partial, would not the rich be paying for registration, and the poor go without it ?—( Hear, hear.). Mr. WA R BURTON esked if there were not, under the present system, continual complaints of the non-delivery of newspapers and money letters ?—( Hear, hear.) There was no general plan to which objections might not be offered. As to the making a partial experiment of the twopenny post, it would not afford the means of ascer taing the real effect of the plan, for en the twopenny post it was as one to two only, while the general post was as one to six. --(Hear, hear.) He wished to express his hopes that no partial experiment would be made--that the whole system would be fairly tried.—( Hear, hear.) Sir R. ING LIS said the experiment had in fact already been tried, in respect to the army, of a penny post, and the result had been a most lamentable defalcation in the revenue. And if the public generally, after the adoption ' of tins plan, did not write more than in proportion to the soldiers, there would not be more than one-fourth of the present amount of letters ; the Post-office would not pro duce more than 00,000/. instead of 2,000,000/. and up wards, as at present. This was a terribly perilous experi ment to play with the finances of the country.—( Hear, hear.) He thought it much more advisable that the plan should be first tried in London till next Session. Mr. F. BARING said he agreed with the Hon. Mem ber for Bridport, that the experiment of the London two penny post would be a most unfair way of trying the effi cacy of the plan._( Hear, hear.) But he did not think it ought at once to be considered that the plan must simul taneously be carried into operation on a certain day through the whole country. He saw no difficulty in bringing it into operation first in certain parts of the country, before the universal application of it. Mr. MACKINNON was about to propose his amend ment, to the effect that each public department should pay its own postage, thus doing away with official franking, when The CHANCELLORof the EXCHEQUER begged to say, that he was anxious to abolish all official franl in;, but did not wish to pledge himself to any particular course till he had consulted the carious public departments. See ing-, therefore, that he quite adopted the principle of the lion, Geritlemal.'s proposition, and only doubted its con sistency with the interests of the public service, and seeing that this Bill would only last till next Session, perhaps the Hon. Member would for the present withdraw his motion. Mr. M AC KINNON assented. Sir G. CLERK hoped it would not be attempted— under the power of bringing the plan first into partial ope ration—to give to lines of communication between different towns, greater advantages, by having the plan earlier ap plied than others?—( Cries of " No, no.") Nothing could be more improper than that the Government shoulcl have the power of selecting what lines of communication should liave the benefit of the plan.—( Hear.) Mr. F. BARING said nothing was further from his intention than to give advantages to one district over another.—(l-12ar, h'ear.) Mr. G. P MER said, as many Members had no con fidence in the measure, it might be satisfactory to know, whether, if the experiment failed, the Chancellor of the Exchequer could readily revert to the existing system. The Bill then passed. PUBLIC' WORKS (IRELAND) PILL. On the Order of the Day for the third reading of this Bill, Col. WOOD asked if then were any limits to the sum which the Exchequer might issue under the measure. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there was the best possible limitation—to the amount fixed by a former Bill, 50,0001. Mr. F. FRENCH inquired if the Bill were to be conformable to the rrovisions of the Ist and 2d Victoria, chap. 21, or 31.) To some of the provisions of the Bill he decidedly objected, especially to that which enabled the Government to come again upon a County for money which had been received by the Treasurer, who had subsequently become a defaulter, the Government having neglected to use the powers which they possessed, for compelling a speedy accounting into their hands. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was the object of this Bill to conform to the provisions of the Act of Ist Victoria• and that the Government had taken the strongest powers for recovering the monies received by the County Treasurers—over whom, if not appointed by the Crown, the Government had, however, no control. Mr. F. FRENCH said there were one or two Acts of George IV. enabling the Government to recover the County funds from treasurers within twenty days from the commencement of each Assizes, under penalties. The Bill was read a third time and passed. BIRMINGHAM POLICE BILL. Lor JOHN RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for the Committee upon this Bill. Sir R. PEEL said, if the suggestion which he should now offer, were adopted by the Government, it would be necessary materially to alter the Bill ; if rejected, he should in Committee have the opportunity of recording his opinion by taking the sense of the House upon its specific introduction. In a matter of this nature, however, the Ministers of the Crown were best able to settle details. The proposition be would submit to the Noble Lord was, whether in the present state of the Town Council, it would not be the best course, to appoint a stipendiary Magistrate, to have the superintendence of the police of Birmingham. It was his intention to give his general support to the proposition of the Noble Lord, notwithstanding the ad vancedforward._(periola.) of the Session at which it had been br o u ght the N o bl e L ord in his h p w ro a p s os al proposition his onforin a t e n n tion increaseto s u i n p p t o h r e t ra th i alitt,larger increase in military force ; Nobleand he e Lord w ou ld prop onsoetdsah stillshrink k fro the avowal the military force, he should have been prepared to sup port him i n th at proposition, from the conviction he felt when he looked around him of the necessity of that in iicnnr t e e a trh s n e ea . lEa East d V t hoefn external—whenEh e ur l o o p o e ke a d : t w o ehl t el h ia e oso s in state n a e t de ouroft o Indian aartne wasla tio p n a s s lo s iont possessionspassing in o h t m h e t h m e i himself l p it r a o r s y p ip h trs e ee c s f fis o u n cr l ie d e nac n ty ot ; ha present indde wofinrtprospect ehcrtavtioctfeh, greatere there o v, a was to o as b a uirm g d r pe c an a is t which might be imposed upon it he considered it would be wise policy not to let Parliament settle without at least securing the means of obtaining an increase, should such be found necessary.—( Cheers.) It was his intention also to support the Noble Lord, notwithstanding the lateness of the Session, in the measure he had brought forward, to enable country magistrates, in case the necessity should arise, to provide a civil force and place it under more effi cient control than it is placed at present. he deeply re gretted the Noble Lord had not wrought forward that pro position at an earlier period of the Session. He agreed with the Noble Lord in opinion that it was not advisable to have recourse to measures of coercion, until such should become unavoidable—but he did not consider this a 3 a mea sure of coercion, as all classes were deeply interested in the maintenance of tranquillity, and the power of an efficient civil force for the maintenance of that tranquillity, could not be regarded as a measure of coercion. At the same time be could not but express his regreat that the Noble Lord bad not brought the measure forward earlier in the Session, nevertheless it was his intention, overlooking - all party considerations, to give the measure his support which the Noble Lord had now brought for ward, because the appointment of a police force for that town would give general satisfaction. It was a town of the greatest importance, the capital of an extensive district, and the district and the town acted and reacted on each other. All the inhabitants of the district were deeply in terested in the maintenance of the tranquillity of the town, and all, he thought, ought to contribute to its sup port.—( Hear, hear.) There were then plans proposed respecting the police. His proposition was that it should be a measure of temporary duration, and that in organising the police of Birmingham the same plan should be fol. lowed as had been followed in organising the police of Westminster, Southwark, and Lambeth, and which had given such universal satisfaction, by exercising the powers with mildness and discretion, not as means of tyranny and oppression, but merely for the protection of life and pro. perty, and the preservation of the public peace. He, a political opponent, would ask the Noble Lord, as Secre sary of State and conservator of the public peace of the country, to apply the same principle to Birmingham, which had been so successfully applied to Westminster, South wark, and Lambeth. But it might be said that Westmin ster, Southwark, and Lambeth, were not in possession of Municipal Corporations, but the City of Dublin was,and there the police was on the same principle, and even the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin himself, the great advo cate of Municipal Institutions, had admitted that be should regret to see the management of the police transferred to the corporation, even should that corporation be remo delled. If they acted on this principle with regard to our ancient Corporation why should they not apply it to a Corporation of recent date ? now so convinced were the Government of the advantage of the application of this principle, that at the commencement of this Session they had wished to adopt the principle which had been so suc cessfully applied to the police of Westminster for five or six years to the City of London, and though they gave up the appointments of the police to the City of London, chiefly on account of its great antiquity, and yet they had shown their approval of the principle, and although they had, unfortunately in his opinion, permitted the Corpora tion to possess the power of appointing the officers, yet the Government had reserved to itself the power of dismissing them. If they therefore approved of the principle in the case of the City of London, he begged to act on it in the case of Birmingham, which had asked for their interference and applied for assistance. The case was a special one, and he believed that the appointment of the officers by the Government would give much greater satisfaction than leaving the appointments in the hands of the Town Council. He believed there was a local power, the Commissioners of Streets, composed of men of all parties, which possessed the power of appointing a police, and levying a rate for its maintenance, and to which, as he understood, the Hon. Member for Birmingham, wished the appointment to be confided. Mr. 'l'. A TTWO OD had said he wished the nomina tion to be transferred to the Corporation. Sir ROBERT PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman had said that there was no necessity for any Act on the subject, and therefore he would not object to the Commissioners of Streets proceeding on the execution of their duties. He objected to this plan because when the Town Council was first nominated, an application was made against the incorporation of the town by a number of the rate payers nearly equal in number and in the amount of rates they paid to those who petitioned in favour of it. A rate to be levied by the Town Council was the only security they had for the repayment of the money to be advanced-- now high authority had entertained doubts as to the power of the Town Council to levy the rates. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—They are em powered to do so by the present Bill. Sir R. PEEL—Then by so doing the existence of these doubts is implied, and in what position did this place the Corporations of Manchester and Bolton ? The doubt was acknowledged, and the authority of the Bir mingham Corporation propped up by this measure, while the other Corporations were left unprovided for: Why give the Corporations this power to levy t Police-rate to repay the advance?—why not rely on the common law ? He would read the t4eese the opinion of Sir William Follett on a case . : submitted to hint by the over seers, who were doubtful if they ought to obeli a precent of the Town Council imposing a rate. He would quote the opinion of Sir Willi:sm. I °ilea respect. ing the demand that had been made by the Town Council of Birmingham en the overseers for rates, and the refusal of the latter to pay them ; r.:ld before reading the extract, he would remind them that this authority was the security they would have to rely on for the repayment of the money to he advanced. Ile trusted that it woeld tend te el - noss that the disposition of the police force :bad the raising of the rates, which the Hon Gentleman opposite proposed to vest in the Town Council, had been made in haste, and w About dire consideration. The opinion of Sir W. Follett, that the question raised as to the authority vested in the municipal authorities to levy rates, was one (Attie greatest doubt. The Corporation and Town Cotneiltof Birmingham had been formed by the statute and 6, William IV. chap. 76, differently fvo , :i the ancient corporations of towns. True, these atathoritics might be appointed by the prero gative of the Crown ; but then more important authorities could only be conferred by the Legisliture, and tho n g been omitted in the 141st sec. of the nth and William IV., and the Ist of Victotia, cep. r i`, which did not give the Corporation the peteer of taxing the borough. He therefore recommended the Town Council to apply to the Court of Queen's Bench for a mandamus a, ainst the over seeten that the question might then be decided. This opinion showed that there was great doubt whether the Town Council had power to tax the borough or to divHe it into wards. The same doubt viveld of ecerse apply to the authority of the Town .r2otaneil to levy police rates. Under those cirsnamstances he ( Sir Robert Peel) recommended. the Noble Lord to interfere, and, as in the case of Oablin, to place the management of this important affair, for the present, in the hands of the isesteetary of State. The political differences end the animosities that distracted the magistrate. ! , 7ele an additional argument for this interference, The appointments made by the Town Council wee toot likely to afford satisfaction or confidence to the great body of the public. The Town Council had not filled an office with a single member of that party who held what are called Conservative opinions—and without disparagement to others, he would say, that con sidering the „neoperty and respectability possessed by members of that body in that town—he would say that this systematic exclusion of those from all share In the local government, wculd not be practically satisfactory to the inhabitants at large.es-(1 - 1ear, hear.) From all that had taken place nince 1830—from the language that had been held--from the animosities that had prevailed—from the combinations that had been formed, and the great im portance they now assumed—from the political measures that had been co-operated in by certain parties in that town, on these grounds he felt bound strongly to advise the Noble Lord to interfere for a time at least, and not to permit the management of a police force to vest in the hands ofany local body. It was realty natural, that, con stituted as the Town Council was, they could not satisfy the public.—( Hear.) They had appointed to important offices persons who had taken an active part in the pro ceedings of the Political Union.--( Hear.) Surely this must show that those who made those appoint ments could not manage a police force with ef ficiency or public confidenee.—( Hear, hear. hear.) Was it a fact that a Delegate to the Chartists had been ap- Bointed to the office of R eg i strar o f t h e M a y or ' s C ourt i n irmingham ?--( Hear, hears) He put it to them as men of sense, whether they could entrust the administration of the police force to men who had appointed to the office of Registrar of the Mayor's Court a Delegate to the National Conuention, and one who lately used the following lane guage. (The Right Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from a speech of Mr. Edmonds already reported in The Sun. It was to the effect that he had suffered and acted in the cause of the people for twenty years. No one more strongly contended than he that the people had a right to resort to physical force to redress their wrongs if moral force should be found ineffective. But• they should not name a day in order that their enemies should not take advantage of them.) What did they think of such a man being appointed clerk of the peace?— (Laughter, and Hear.) Appointed clerk of the peace to the town council of Birmingham I Was that a wise ap pointment, or one likely to be exercised satisfactorily to the inhabitants at large ?—( Hear, hear.) But he would fur ther ask the Noble Lord whether it was true that the clerk of the peace had been lately engaged in the defence of the Chartists before the Magistrates ?—( Hear, hear.) He ( Sir R. Peel) had been positively assured that on the day on which the riots broke out, on the 15th of July, when property to the value of 3,0001. or 4,0001. was exposed to destruction—and when the town was full of a sense of dan ger—that then the clerk of the peace was agent to the Chartist prisoners 2—( Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. Ed. monds had belonged to the Political Union, and he would ask was this conduct likely to remove the impression that the Chartists had been instigated and encouraged by the members of that body ?—( Hear, hear.) Thus one Chartist was clerk of the peace, another was they Registrar that on the of the Mayor's principle the TownW hat Council assurance wouldha d sae notar The int Political Union might highs and subordinate m htnw e officerse irpuiat nth d ep e olice forcethe Chartists, but nevertheless on them must rest the moral if not the legal responsibility of having given them birth. The Hon. Member for Birmingham in his address to the Political Union spike of peace, law, and order, and then said it was the duty of the people to combine their efforts— that they must gather means and be placed under leaders and teachers—until they could precipitate their moral in fluence in one overwhelming mass. With these views he commended the 49 Delegates of the industrious classes— " It is only in this way," said the Hon. Gentleman, " that we can obtain union—through union we shall obtain li berty—through liberty we shall obtain prosperity. We must obey and support the 49 Delegates by every legal means." Now he (Sir R. Peel) apprehended the 49 De legates had disappointed the expectations of the Hon. Member, and that they had far exceeded the power which the Hon. Gentleman proposed to entrust to them. The Hon. Gentleman might now repent the advice be had given—he might now consider the course which they bad taken was tantamount to a dismemberment of his own body, and the annihilation of his own political strength ; but he never would believe the Hon. Gentleman could divest himself of the moral responsibility which belonged to the inculcation of such doctrines,—(Hear, hear.) His object in quoting these passages was to show that there would be no confidence in a public force if Political Unionists and Chartists were to become a portion of the body.—( Hear, hear.) He (Sir R. Peel) had discharged his duty by delivering these sentiments. lle had not de livered them for the purpose of obstructing the Government in the adoption of those measures they might think mess sary for strengthening their hands, but because he con sidered that they recommended a measure more calculated to provide for the public peace. He agreed vith the Noble Lord that they ought not to show any feverish dis trust, but that they ought to have great confidence in the power and ordinary law of this country. He had a strong, belief that, encouraged by the forbearance of the Govern ment, the loyalty, the property, and the respectability of this country would crush every effort of the Chartists to disturb the public peace. He did not believe that this country was so debased and so cowardly that it would per mit measures of violence to prevail and to oppose the authority of the law. At the same time, while he was perfectly willing to coincide in the forbearance of the Government, if carried to its legitimate extent, he would implore them not by any act of silence to appear to tanetioning their combinations. He implored them not to pass Acts which might enable delegates and members of political unions to fill offices intended for the mainte nance of the public peace.—( Hear, hear.) He thought forbeerenee and confidence in the loyalty of the people just, but the moment they gave any sanction to such doc trines as physical force, by not taking precautions against them, that moment would they become parties to the de lusion practised by the instruments of agitators; they would then forfeit the confidence etf the people of England and they would dispirit the loyal. Therefore to any party who had abused its trust, they ought at once to say, " no considerations of political partizanship shall induce us to invest you with authority necessary for the maintenance of the public peace."—( Hear, hear.) Mr. SCHOLE FIE LD hoped the House Wonld patiently bear with him for a few minutes while he made an obseat'etion or two in justice to his osvn town, and to those on whom the Right Hon. Bart. had vented his displeasure, namely, the Town Council. It was true the Town Council were parties opposed to the Tories ; they might be called Ra dicals, perhaps—(a laugh)—but they were freely and unanimously chosen, and he did not know any charge could be brought against the ratepayers for having elected party men.--( Hear, hear.) It was a fair fight, and no one could say the Tories did not do all they could to succeed. —( Hear, hear.) He felt convinced there was in that Council men as honest as any who sat in that House. They might be Radicals; they might be Liberals; they might not have so much money in their pockets as many who sat in the House of Commons, but all the members of the Town Council whom he knew, he could state were as fit to wield the power of the Town Council as any one present.—( Hear, hear.) When a choice was made of officers there was nothing unusual in one party excluding another. The principles of the party to which the Right Hon. Baronet belonged had been exclusion in tato. When what was called the " high party " had power, a more de termined system of exclusion never existed, and he could mention a society in Birmingham into which no one would be admitted who had the slightest spark of liberality about him. They excluded every man who was not a most dogged disciple of their creed.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet had expressed his surprise at so imperfect a charter having been given. That had been a puzzle to the people of Birmingham, for of what use was a charter unless it gave the Corporation power to levy rates. The moment they proceeded to levy a rate, the Tories said, " No, no !--levy a rate as you will, you shall not be paid." So that they had a chatter, bet they had not money, They bad not been wise in their generation, nor had the Noble Lord, because lie had certainly been defi cient in the money matter; and Government should back their friends if they wished their friends to back them.— ( Loud cheers, and Hear, hear.) He objected to a system of gendarmerie being established in lairminghare, and he v,ould neceste pack Op his all and leave, than belong to a town that was said not to be fit to take care of its own concerns.—(Hear, hear.) He had no objection to receive a police force in the constitutional shape, but he should be dishonest if he did not express his belief that the Town Conceit would not be willing to pay over the money for others to have the appointments. He could state that race would be as fitiely and htseestly chosen by the pteaent Town Council as they would by any Council of Tories there or anywhere else.—( Laughter.) They would exercise a conscientious judgment, and would not make an improper appointment of any kind. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated that appointments had been made of which he disapproted, and had stuated the in stance of Mr. Vdmotiels. tt *as not ion . ' him to say that that gentleman was not obnoxious to many persons, and no doubt he was to the Right Honourable Baronet and his party, because he had always opposed them. (Loud laughter.) But it was much to his credit to say he had reet with the reanimous appointment of the eoetetal.-eae( licai - e hear, from the depo sition.) There were as honest men in that Council as there ware in that House; they honestly believed Mr. Edmonds was entitled to the appointment, and had he ( Mr. Scholefield) been one of them , h , e m s i l; j u i ld ii6 h t a i s p :e er g h i a v p e s n , him his vote. He rniebt perhaps hate tcrntseitted himself in defending ens or the teTheetisets, i haVe been good taste, hut he (Mr. Scholefield) had seen the Attorney- General defend people who ought to have been hanged.—(Great laughter.) The Learn. ed Attorney- General had received a very large fee to defend a man who had practised enormous cruelties at sea, and through the Attoteey-riseerel ha had rot off.— ( Renewed fattgliteie ) Hut he believed it was part of the exiling of professional men to obey those who might com mand their services.—( Hear ; hear.) He did not see that Mr. Edmonds had gone much out of his way as a profes sional man in appearing fora I person before trial, and who, therefore, must be priptcac to L^ lncotett. He had been Infor,Ar.d tlAe In"Cencliaries could not be found.— , (Hear, hear, hear.) There could be very little doubt , that the disturbances had been fanned by both parties. and at this moment there was a striving between Tories and Chartists against the new Corporation, a most unilateral one to he sure,—(litar 'rho Right Von. Bart. also tiptil;.s of, the great bpfloS:i:Oil in the 1:own to the Col - psiration. Doubtless there was.—( Hear hear.) They were opposed by persons who had opposed the Reform Bill, and every species of R. form. There was nothieg new in that; and they had taken advantage of the late disturbances in Birmingham. He begged pardon for hav ing trespassed on the attention of the House so long, but he could assure the House that no one n - as more inclined te tappi,eee physiaal fonee than be was, knowing that the people would never obtain their just rights by any such means.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. ATTWOOD thanked the Honourable Baronet for the kind notice he had taken of his humble endeavours in the public cause, and would feel obliged if the Right 1 - 10noe.ra.ble itait6raq -b;rotaid continue his notice.— ( A laugh.) He had nothing to be ashamed of; but on the contrary, be felt pleased at what he had done, and he only hoped that the whole of time letter to which the Right Honourable Baronet had referred, would be printed in the same way that the extract :tallith he had read weuld to-mor. roes molting. The misfortune was, that he had uneven been able to obtain any letter cr any speech of his out of that House published, either i n —( Laughter.) In cnn reepect , he found himself singularly t t h h e e Tory Radical papers.papers, or in the Whig papers , or in Conservative. All the three factions in that House hated each other with a cordial hatred, and disagreed with each other on every subject, except one, and it was most siegu • lap that that one should be a war on the credit and cur rency of this country.—(Great laughter.) The public press had always burked his humble labours in the public cause.—(Renewed laughter.) He acknowledged that he did originate the 4P Delegates, and he believed if jus tice had been clone to his humble labours, instead of dis cord now raging throughout the country between master and man, the masses would have been brought to bear properly on that House. It was not by putting down a mob here, or a mob there, or by creating a rural police, a constabulary force, or a gendarmerie, or an army, that the mortal cancer which was eating into the heart of England would be eradicated. They might p n u e t e a u r p e l . as t I h i y e r and a x pl \ a , s i t . e h r a t d l e r 4 e but they 0 , 0, 000 soldiers would effect at the time of the revolution, but he would tell the Right Hon. Baronet that 400,000 would not be sufficient to carry his Currency Bill through all its murderous operations. Would the Noble Lord recruit his army from the Chartists? How was he to increase the army ? Would he recruit in towns in which nine out of ten of the working men were Char tists? Would he recruit from the villages in which nine out of ten of the labourers were rick-burners ?—( Oh, oh.) He could tell them that the hearts of the labourers cf England were all alienated from that House, and that nine ont of ten, when they heard of a fire felt a melan choly pleasure in going to look at it.—(Renewed cries of " Oh, oh.") Hon. Gentlemen might cry " Oh, oh," but let them go and inquire among the labourers as he had done. Then, how would they recruit the army ? They had Chartists in the great towns, and rick-burners in the villages, and he would implore the House to apply itself to giving comfort to the people. Let them not lay the flattering unction to their souls, that there was no thing the matter—let them not think that he (Mr. Attwood) with his feeble voice, had been the wizard that had raised all this hubbub in the face of nations. He had been merely an instrument put up as it were to show the wise Statesmen which way the wind set. If the Right Hon. Baronet had been wise, he would have taken his (Mr. Attwood's) advice in 1829—( A laugh)— he knew that it was given in good faith ; it would have stayed the advance of the popular tide—for the people would have been enabled to live by their labour. in 1837 he gave the same advice to the present Ministry, who then had another opportunity of stopping the march of anarchy, and throwing oil upon the troubled waters. Yet he was accused of having created all this mischief. He repeated that he had in no way created it. He was but one among the millions. But he knew that nine-tenths of the la bourers of this country were discontented men. Esnglish Gentlemen did not believe this, perhaps. Why? Because they consulted only those sycophants by whom they were always surrounded ; their butlers, gamekeepers and other dependents, who ever prophesiedigood ; so that when an honest man told a disagreeable truth, they were ready to address him in the language of the ancients.--" Prophet accursed I—for ever brooding ill I" For himself, he had always dissuaded from violence —he had never recom mended it even as a dernier resort. To be sure the press—which, when it did condescend to notice him spread delusion respecting him, and resorted to imagination as to his sayings—the press had stated that he had talked of armies marching upon London, and of the people arming. Certainly, at a period when the House of Commons were with the people—when the Ministers of the Crown were with the people—when the King himself was with them, at the time of the Reform Bill, and when be thought that the people, the Ministers, the House of Commons, and the King were all bearded by the House of Lords —he had used stronger language than he had ever since used, but he had never spoken of an attempt to coerce by force, but had only talked of defend ing the law, in ease any English Polignacs should arise— ( Laughter)—he had told the people to be ready and prepare to vindicate the law, should it be attacked by a tyrannical Ministry. That was all he had done in 1832, and ever since he had strenuously endeavoured to recommend peace, law and c , ” , ler among the working classes ; he had exhorted them to seek righteous ends by righteous means, not to envy the rich or the aristocracy, not to attack the I.:erogatives of the Crown, not to be actuated by any low jealousies of those who were more fortunate than themselves. He advised the middling classes to act with the working men, to operate thus unitedly on the electoral body, and thus secure in the House of Commons a majority of representatives who would execute the will of the masses of the people,—and give them justice. He had been for preventing anarchy,—and if it had begun he washed his hands of it.—(Laughter.) He had done his l i best to prompt the people to peaceable combination for none other than just and righteous objects ; in that course he would persevere ; and though he now saw unpleasant signs in the political horizon, be still hoped to see the day when better senti ments would prevail—when, instead of talking of arms and physical force, there would be concord between the middle and the lower classes—when the period of dan ger to the Crown or the aristocracy would pass away under a representative system, restoring to the people all those rights which their fathers gained by their blood, and which had been twisted out of their hands. Now a few words more.—( A laugh.) He believed that the autho i, rities of Birmingham had done their duty during the late proceedings. They were highly respectable gentlemen, though of the Liberal party. It was curious that their first act had been to - address the Crown to call such Ministers to her Counils as would carry further Reforms in that House, not certainly in so many words to dismiss the present Ministers, but virtually so.—(Laughter.) As to violent speeches which might have been made by mem bers of the Town Council, the errors of youth in past times ought not to be too severely pressed when better opi nions had been formed. With respect to Mr. Edmonds, a more worthy man never lived; though it was true he had been for twenty-five years an " agitator"—still he had never recommended violence. There was a little error certainly in the language which had been mentioned—if he ever used it—which, if it was quoted in the Birming ham Journal, he (Mr. A.) believed ; if not, he cared not tzopence for all the rest of the Birmingham papers.— (Laughter.) Mr. Douglas was one of the most worthy men in the twwn, though he had not been there more than a few years,—his only fault was, that, like the Right Hon ourable Baronet, he was rather too fond of gold monies— (Laughter)—and would never give in to his (Mr. Att wood's) notions about paper, the disregard of which made him despair Of this country's ever being rescued from its present condition.—(Laughter.) He defied any one to point out any outrage committed by the Political Union. He had been accustomed to tak credit for the manner in which they had conducted themselves. During 1829, 1830, 1832, the public offices in Birmingham were deserted. He wished to have given this peaceable character perma nently to the ‘LnltTn. He believed that notwithstand ing the late unpleasant it was still the cha racter of the town. He bette.74 that not of course the Right Honourable Baronet oppose:: or gentlemen who acted with him, but that bad men had been work promoting these mischiefs through England—( Hear) — promoting discord and violenee,in order to destroy the cause they pretended to befriend. This he was quite sure of, that had the bitterest enemies of the people sat in infernal conclave, to devise means for injuring the cause of the peo ple, they could not have devised means more effectual than recommending the use of arms.—(Hear, hear.) He had denounced these schemes. Douglas, who at first had joined the Convention, had left them when they began to talk of physical force, and those wild ideas that passion, not reason, suggested, and boded no good to any cause.— ( Hear.) He sometimes suspected that Nicholas of Russia was concerned in exciting these mischievous designs.— (Laughter.) Knowing how anxious the Northern despot was to forment, either at home or abroad, disturbances that might injure England, he certainly suspected some of the retainers of the Right Hon. Baronet had been endea vouring to excite an agitation in the country which might put down the peaceful agitation, he ( Mr. Attwood) was desirous of encouraging, He had objected to the course taken by the Delegates of the Convention ; but if they returned to the maxims which he urged—peace, law, order, and no m i s t a k e —h e did no t y e t 'despair of great and beneficial changes being carried in the constitution of that House. With regard, now, to this Birmingham Bill, if the Mayor and Corporation wished the loan of 10,0001. he would not object to it. But as to placing the projected police entirely under the control of the Noble Lord or the Government, it escrelsl not be submitted to.—( Hear, hear.) It was the hostility id the nese police that had created the riots at Birmingham. He said this upon the .iinple fact that the common constables had taken up ten or twelve men from the midst of the crowd and had thew tined various sums, from 103. to 51., or a months' imprison ment, niet:Oly fur the lsreatfh of a local Act—sentences tolerably severe ; yet dot d 111/w was straek, there was only a little hissing. But when the new police came down they acted violently, and instead of arresting parties offending, and in which, if they had attempted, he trusted th e y would not have been resisted, they began to lay about theft? With their tta•fet.—.a treatment to which the good people of Birminghdrii cetre net aecestomed ; they therefore resisted, and, as on a memorable ()demon, he be fieved that a jury would have returned " justifiable homi cide," had any of the policemen been wounded in the affray: He trusted the House would not, therefore, sanction tt , ItteTttre which would make the Birmingham force resemble the neVi po j tial ; !I seteild Lie the commence ment of a system of gendartnerie-e-a edieltabluMry force, centered in London, and spreading through ercry parish in England, the introduction of which this House would rue. He hoped the money to be advanced by this Bill would be Qlated ender the control of the Mayor and Cor poration oz ; as to who..e management, not being sufficiently Conservative, hd Woffid only observe that there seemed to him to he no danger, as in the late dis turbances there appeared to be rather a little too much of energy than a deficiency of it ; he repeated, therefore, his hope that in the Gouncil there would be reposed entire confidence, and eipeeidlly In the Magistrates, a most re spectable body of gentlemen—though sYnne of them were Tories—respectable Tories.—( A laugh.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he owned he felt a wish that the Bin. Gentleman who represented the town of Birmingham :weld pause from carrying his fears to such a distance he Was wont to extend them, and instead of being alarmed at the Ponsitlility of sortie English Po lignac springing up and overtuenilig seer rights—or Nicholas of Russia interfering with otif ildmestie institutions—that he would feel a small degree of' compassion for those fellow-townsmen of his own, who a short ti ens ago had been doomed to ice their property de stroyed by a lawless mob.—(Bear, hear.) The Hon Gentleman, bbtli iii his letter to the people of Birrningam after the riots, and in his speecli thisceening, had shown an utter want of what he (Lord J. Russell) ehottld have ex pected from him,—a strong, decided censure, disapproba tion and reprobation, of the acts which had been com mitted in those riots—( Hear, hear)—and the Hon. Gent. had merely expressed regret at their tendency to retard the cause of those peculiar reform, of which he was the advocate.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was fereently, however, to be trusted, that the House was unanimously of opinion that the inhabitants of Birmingham having had their pro perty destroyed, and houses committed to the flames, was cause for serious consideration, and that every effort should be directed, without any respect to minor differences, to devise means whereby the recurrence of similar perils might be prevented.---( Hear, hear, hear.) In addressing himself to the observations which had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, he (Lord John Russell) would not advert to what had been urged respecting the increase of the army or the improvement of the constabu lary, for which there would be other opportunities of discussion. With respect to the present state of Birming ham and the necessity for this Bill, he would state the conclusion to which he had arrived, and the difficulty he felt in regard to that town, and in a greater degree, as to a still more important town, that of Manchester. The Right lion. Gentleman said there was some haste and pre cipitancy in granting the charter to Birmingham. On that subject he (Lord John Russell) need only refer to the clause in the Corporation Act which said that there were sundry towns in England not corporate, and which it was expedient to make corporate ; and that if the ma jority of the inhabitant householders petitioned her Ma jesty to grant them a charter, it should be lawful for the Privy Council to issue such charter. Now, both as to Birmingham and Manchester such petitions had been pre sented, and the Government felt that they had only to ascertain what was the wish of the inhabitant house holders, and if it were for the charter, to grant it, ac cording to the obvious intention of Parliament. The towns of Birmingham and Manchester had grown up with very insufficient institutions—( Hear, hear)—with none suitable to their importance, and the preservation of order. —( Hear, hear.) Every effort had been used to ascertain if the signatures to the petitions were genuine, and if they represented rated inhabitants ; and it was considered by the Privy Council that it was the wish of the inhabi tants of Birmingham to have the Charter of Incorpo ration. The opinion of Sir William Follett, which had been referred to, did not state that the Charter was ill-formed for the purposes contemplated.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He states that doubt exists as to the Act of Parliament under which the Charter was passed giving a right to the Corporation to levy rates. Of course he (Lord John Russell) was not competent to give a legal opinion on the subject; but as the opinion of Sir W. Follett did not sug gest any invalidity, arising out of the manner in which the Charter itself had been framed, he considered that .com pletely absolved the Lords of the Council from the charge of carelessness or undue haste in the granting the Charter. He had stated that the Act of Parliament was a reflective Act—that of course was a question to be decided by the Court of Queen's Bench, after argument heard thereon ; and be thought that the Hon. Member for Birmingham must see that if the Act of Parliament was insufficient it was not for want of any precaution on the part of those by whom the Charters of Manchester and Birmingham had been granted. This was a question which in times of tranquillity, when party spirit was lulled, might, like any other party question, be discussed without agitating the community. But in the present state of affairs, it was a question of grave importance. At Man chester the Town Council bad issued a warrant levying a distress on the goods of the Churchwardens and Overseers, this had been immediately met by a replevin, and the case could not be tried for the next six or seven months. It was obvious that the Charter of Birmingham was in the same case as the Charter of Manchester. After that opinion the Town Council of Birmingham could not feel themselves justified in levying a rate at present. He would read an extract from a letter he had received from the Mayor of Birmingham, stating that the Magistrates at the various meetings felt confirmed in the opinion as to the necessity of the establishment of a police force for the maintenance of the tranquillity of the town ; but that as doubts existed as to the validity of a borough rate, they had no means of raising the force that was so much required. Under these circumstances, after great consideration, he determined that the best mode to pursue would be to propose the advance in question. The Hon. Gentleman had said that while the Charter of Birmingham was in dispute, it would tend to diminish their authority. He felt the force of that argument. In towns possessed of an old Corporation, the Corporation did possess that authority. In the town of Newcastle, for instance, a mob of five or six hundred assembled at night, and commenced an attack on the property in the town. The Mayor, who was a man of extreme opinions, and w ho had taken a more active part that, the Mayor of Bir. mingham, found no difficulty in making his authority respected by means of the police force, and suppressing the tumult ; and if he needed any increase in the police force he could easily obtain it ; but that was an old Corporation whose authority was undisputed. He must, however, say with reg ird to the Magi , trates of Birmingham, that he had every reason to believe that they had performed their duties most zealously and rigidly, so as to meet the confidence of the town.—( Cheers.) And with regard to one of them in particular, Mr. Muntz, who had been much misrepresented with regard to certain trans actions in Scotland, there was no difference of opinion as to the ability and zeal which be had exhibited in the dis charge of his duty, and that he had not shrunk from the performance of it in the least in consequence of any obloquy that might be cast upon him.—( Cheers). With regard to another gentlemen, a Mr. Edmonds, the clerk of the peace, he had thought it right when he heard that he bad been concerned on behalf of some of the prisoners, to inquire into his conduct, and he must say, that the explanation was not satisfactory ; it was stated that he had been engaged in defending prisoners who were not to be tried at Birmingham, but who were sent to Warwick for trial ; this, however, was by no means a satisfactory ex planation, as it tended to weaken the authority of justice, if a person sitting as a Magistrate's clerk, were seen en gaged in defending a prisoner. Taking all the eir cemstances of the case into consideration, he was inclined to substitute the opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet for his own as to the appointment of the police and he should be inclined to observe the same rule in Man. chester also, should the inhabitants of that place be desi rous of the introduction of a police force. He thought the power should not exceed two years—and that it should be lodged in the hands of some person, independent both both of the Town Council and of the Commisioners of Streets, for the organization of a police force.—(Cheers.) This course was open to many objections—in fact, the whole case was surrounded with difficulties, but he thought on the whole, the course proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet was to be preferred. He would not propose that the appointment should be lodged in the hands of the Secretary of State, but of some Commissioner, some person of dis cretion and ability in the neighbourhood, who should have the whole control and direction of the police for the next two years. As it would be necessary to introduce exten sive alterations in the Bill in order to carry this plan into effect, he would postpone the further consideration of it in order to bring it forward with the necessary alteration. Mr. T. ATTWOOD explained. • Mr. HUME had heard the latter part of the decla ration of the Noble Lord with regret. He had borne testimony to the ability and efficiency of the Corporation of Birmingham, and n o w h e was • g to deprive them of the appontment of th e p o li ce . (He go ar.) going Why did not the Noble Lord i n t ro d uce a B i ll declaratory of the legality of the charter, and cle ar i n g u p th e d ou b t ) ; akthea appoint _f it oi n n wa s wrong s fr on the subject.—( Cheers.) He heard with s a ti s f ac ti on thenewfoopcionniostnistuoefnctibees aßnda Right Hon. aßteasrotonemt, persons agreeing with themselves in politi merits With regard to Messrs. Do u gl as cal opinions. s - s s , itlernen had given the best and Edmonds, those possible pledge of their &se to uphold peace and: ion the instant it good order by the leaving the Conve:: violent and attempted to propose what they consideres: 7 improper measures. But if violent language was to he a reason for the exclusion of persons from authority, he had heard much more violent language from the supporters of the Right Hon. Baronet. One of the gentlemen in Ireland had said at a public meeting, " Put your trust in God, and keep your powder dry,"—language more violent than had been used by either Mc. Douglas or Mr. Ed monds. But he wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman what was the principle on which these appoint ments ought to be made. Could he show a Tory Corpo. ration, or a Tory body of Magistrates, who had ever made a liberal appointment? What was the principle the Right Honourable Baronet wished to lay down ? Did the Right Hon. Baronet mean more than that ?, He could not act with justice unless he slid. But he (Mr. H.) would ten times rather see the charter withdrawn from Birmingham, than that the Corporation of that town should be disgraced by the proposition which the Noble Lord now seemed willing to adopt. This was an attack on the principle of local Government against which he pro tested most strongly Mr. H O D G E Se was desirous to correct a statement made by the Hon. Member for Birmingham. He had stated That in the towns of the North the majority of the inhabi tants were Chartists, and that in the agricultural districts nine out of ten were rick burners. He (Mr. H.) had long been connected with the agricultnral districts, and he could give the strongest possible contradiction to what the Hon. Member had stated. Instead of there bellies, one man out of ten a rick burner, he was sure there was not one pa rish out of ten, or even one parish out of thirty—instead of the labouring people rejoicin g in the destruction of property by fire, they had generally shown the greatest desire and activity to put the fire out.—( Hear, bear, hear.) He knew that the Honourable Member was distinguished for his charity and benevolence ; but surely it was incon sistent with that character to charge a man because he was poor, or because he lived in a district that had been die - - graced by an outrage, with apathy or bad feeling,--(Hear.) Mr. O'CONNE LL said he believed the question raised was not as to the validity of the charter, but as to the power of the Corporation to raise money by taxation, and to divide the burgh into wards. The Crown used to con fer the latter power in former times, but it seemed to be doubted whether the prerogative extended so far now. He wished to say a few words in vinidcation of the character of Mr. Edmonds, whom be had known long and well. He believed there was not a more worthy man in the profession and in private life, and he was besides a thoroughly honest Reformer. He was charged by the Right Hon. Gentleman and censured by the Noble Lord for having been engaged in the defence of the Chartists. It was quite true that Mr. Edmonds was Clerk of the Peace to the Town Council of Birmingham, but he was I also a practising attorney—if they wished to make a law preventing a clerk of the peace from practising 83 an attorney, let him be punished for violating that law—but, while he was perfectly justifiable in doing as he had done, he ought not to be censured. Mr. Edmonds might not practise at the Birmingham Sessions, but he might out of that Court— and the Chartists were not triable at the Sessions but at the Assizes of Warwick.—( dear, hear.) Therefore, he was not only justified, but bound to do as he had done. A council could not select his client, neither could an attorney. Sir Charles Wetherell defended Thistle wood, and Sir John Copley defended Watson. A very violent Orangeman in the county of Cork, shot his son for turning Catholic. He (Mr. O'Connell) defended the man at the assizes ( Sir J. Franks being his leading council) and the man was acquitted— a result I ties was mnch attributed to Ins (Mr. o'con. nell's) exertionee No man was more desirous than he that the Chartists should be punished for their crimes, but he was also desirous that they should have the benefit of the law, and they should select the best lawyers they could finc.l,—( Hear, heat.) He submitted that Mr. Ed monds Was entirely free from blame. He (Mr. O'C.) did not meEiss2eaything in disparagement of the Corporation, but he thought i; would be the wisest plan to place the police under thc controul of persons who belonged to no party. Indeed fie was sure that:at the end of 12 months, the Town Council wouiti of themselves ask the Govern ment to take the responsct;:!itY out of their hands.— (Hear, hear.) He was not one o: those who called the police gees d'armes.—(Hear,ls ar.; The police had dor,c eminent service in Dublin and th."°"gh "t Ireland. They were now becoming popular in : 1 2at country, and he was sure they would be so soon in England. He was glad that the Govevernment were about to increase the army. He wished to see the Go. vernment possess sufficient strength to put down the Char. tists ; but he must at the same time say that nothing so much tended to the formation of political unions as the refusal of Parliament to do justice to the people. There was nothing more painful to witness than the utter abhor rence of the House of Lords to any measure of salutary reform.—( Hear, hear.) Why the Bill sent up from this House the other day to put an end to the taking of the franchise frem men who had merely removed from one home to another within the same district, that Bill had been unceremoniously refuted by them.—( Hear, hear.) The operative classes were severely aggrieved and injured ; they had no vote in the return"of Members ; they had no one in Parliament with whom to hold direct intercourse, and to deposit their feelings and confidence. They deprived the working classes of the franchise, and then they expected them to be quiet and satisfied. But if they were to be so they would be undeserving tho name of Englishmen. At present those were a slave class, while they were a master-class. The working classes were fully justified in seeking through Parliament for relief, and it was a favourable trait in their disposition that they were disposed to regard the Legislature with a filial res pect. They had good reason to wish for the shortening of Parliament. The Parliament had been elected for three years, it passed a law to make its existence for seven years. Parliameut had always held respect to the body of the people. While they would not give up their two representatives for Saltoun and Old Sarum they would not give a representative to Birmingham. It was this kind of injustice and indifference that had raised up Chartism—and very strong the Chartists would now be, if they had not bad leaders. If calumniated Ireland were now to give her countenance to Chartism—if they had proclaimed Chartism three months since, would not the Chartist of England have derived great encouragement and force from that fact ? But Ireland had no such disposi tion. Even the tales of Ribbonism which had been whirled against him in the other- House, were proved to be false by the evidence brought before it. Ireland well knew what her advantage might be if she were to weaken her enemies in this country, but she wished to do nothing that was not°compatihle with the law. Ireland was now more tranquil than she had been for 500 years. The Judges had gone the circuit. At the assizes for the county of Kilkenny, there was but a single felony—in others there were but two or three. Yet the result was, that Ireland was treated with contempt by one House, while a momentary hope was held out by the other. But he had digressed a little. Let the m p ut down Chartism by the strong arm of the law, and then let them redress not imaginary grievances, such as the currency, but the real substantial complaints of the working classes. All knew there must be always great distress in the fluc tuations of the manufacturing districts; but still it was a se vere grievance to exclude the working classes from the re. • presentation, and see 30,000 electors in Yorkshire return ing two M em bers, and Harwich , with on ly 170, returnin g also two. He was desirous to see a police established to enforce and support the law. He held it most unjust and cruel to exclude from the franchise those intelligent high-minded workmen, and to whom England was mainly indebted for her wealth and commerce. By these means the people were left open to agitation for ; bad purposes, He was not saying anything agitatous— ( A laugh.)—for be believed agitation was necessary and useful, and if kept within the law, it committed no crime and injurned no property. An inquiry would take place as to the police, and no doubt their conduct would be vindicated.—( Hear, hear, He though the Magistrates had taken a proper step in calling for the London police, for by that means a collision with the military had been prevented, which would only have ended in blood. If the Mluist , att's lied corn aitted any fault, it was in having remained an hour and a half from the office ; but upon that fault Tory iilagistrates as well as Radical were equally blameable. Bei lie believed nothing that took place was anything like the sacking of a town, or taking it by storm, nor could it be believed be compared to anything that happened at Badajoa or San Sebastran.7 (Laughter. ) The agitatora who instigated the disturb ances at Birmingham should be punished; but while they deserved to he punished, those ought to be punished who , had given them materials for creating sucis disturbances by doing injustice to the people of England. Mr. BROTHERTON knew something of the artisans of Lancashire, and from accounts he had received he believed there was throughout the eounty displayed by the great bulk of there an amount of intelligence and good feeling that should lead the House not to mistrust them. They had great Privations to undergo, and he hoped nothing harsh would be done towards them. Mr. W AKL E Y sincerely hoped the Noble Lord would not be induced to act on the suggestion of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite ; but ha understood the Noble Lord had proposed to withdraw the Bill which he h,ad in troduced last week, and to substitute another— with totally different provisions. Now the Noble Lord should recollect that he had obtained the unanimous vote of the House for the 0,000/., under the expectation that the money was to be applied by the parties who had been elected by the people of Birmingham to rule the town. ( Loud cries of " Hear.") Was it fair to obtain the money under such a profession, and then to endeavour to apply it in a totally different manner, ?—(Hear, and cheers.) It was not dealing fairly with the House or the people.— ( Hear, hear.) The people of Birmingham were repre sented by two Members in that House. They had been sent to the House by the voice of the people .of Birming ham, and these Hon. Members urged the Nobl a Lord not to adopt the suggestion of the Right Hon. Baronet. But it appeared the Noble Lord was determined to adopt that suggestion, and the Town Council were to he relieved entirely of all control over the police. This was a most extraordinary mode of proceeding., and he would prefer having a Tory Government at once. —( Hear, hear.) At present the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) was the leader of that House; lie almost directed the other House, he had not the least responsibility thrown upon him.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) If the Noble Lord was inclined to yield to sug gestions why did he not yield to the suggestions of his supporters ?—( Hear, hear.) But Cie Noble Lord would not adopt the suggestion of his supporters in Par liament, but acquiesced in the suggestions of the Right Hon. Baronet who represented the minority ire that House. —(Hear, hear)—and those who had been sti . uggling for years in the cause of liberty were to be. defeated by the suggestions of their opponents. If the sug gestion of the Right Honourable Baronet wa.e acted on it would give great dissatisfaction to the. coun try, and would tend in a great measure to ,destroy the usefulness of the Corporation which he had himself created, because if the Corporation of Birmin t gham, merely because there was contention and strife in that town, were to he deprived of the control of their police, every other Corporation might be subjected to the ,same punish ment, for there was not a single Corporation in evhich there was not a division of parties, and in which Virhige, Tories, and Radicals, were not engaged in a ceaseless strife for power.—(Hear, hear.) He hopes'. the Noble Lord would give the power to the Corporation to manage and control their police, and not commence a system of eestablishing in this country Commissioners of pollee in the rural ejstricts.—( Hear, hear.) M r. If ! ! WES was not disposed to accede to the propo sition of the Sight lion. Baronet.—( Hear, hear.) He had always been the advocate of a good police system, but no 'doubt there would be in Birmingham con siderable opposition to A Police Commisionter being ap pointed by the Government„—( Hear.) The plan adopted with reference to the city of London and the districts around it was a plan that might be adoped in Birmingham with success, namely, for the Corporation to elect: a com missioner who, with the rules and regulations which they might agree te, was subject to the approval of the Govern ment. If the Noble Lord adopted the proposition of the Right Honourable Baronet, great excitement would be created in Birmingham, and it might perhaps prejudice the progress of that constitutional system ,'f police which he wished to see gradually and steadily extendeel. The middle measure had worked well, and that would work equally well in Birmingham. He wished the Noble A T cord had taken more time to deliberate, before he had committed himself to this proposition. Indeed, he hoped that the Noble Lord had not committed himself finally to it ; for if he had, he must introduce a fresh Bill, the present iseing quite inadequate to this object. Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to postpone the further consideration of the Bill till Thursday next. He had considered the proposition suggested by the Hon. Member for Lambeth, but had found it inapplicable to the state of Bir mingham. As to the Hon. Member for Finsbury, who seemed to consider that it was a reason for resisting the proposition to appoint a Commissioner, that it was sug gested by the Right Hon. Baronet, he (Lord J. Russell) would firmly say, that if any measure want proposed which he believed would tend to the peace of Birmingham, be would adopt it, even though it were proposed by that Right Hon. Baronet.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. HUME said the resolution would not do for the present Bill, another must be introduced. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Resolution was a genera/ one, and merely applied to the police of Birmingham. Mr. FINCH said the Council of Birmingham could not he expected, under the new plan, to be willing to accept the advance of 10,0001. Lord .1. RUSSELL said he certainly did not expect that the Council would make themselves responsible for the amount, under the new plan, nor should he propose it. The Committee was then deferred till Thursday. POOR-LAW COMMISSION CONTINUANCE BILL. On the Order of the Day for the Committee upon this Bill, Sir B. HALL presented a petition from Marylebune against it. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE then moved an instruction to abolish the plurality of voting on the election of Guardians. He hardly felt it necessary to sey a word in support of his proposition. Gentlemen must be aware that the present system had created general dissatsfaction throughout the country. It was a mockery of representation professing to give the rate-payers the franchise, but virtually dis franchising them. He knew cases in which individuals held 60, 100, 300, nay, he had [ward of 700, proxies, swanning thus the body of the rate-payers.—( Hear , hear.) Nor was there any check upon this proxy voting , and the clerks of unions, often returning officers, inte: rested in keeping the guardians in power, resisted all inquiry. He did not wish to prevent tho owner having a vote, when be had any interest in the rating ; b ot when he had granted a lease for twenty-one years, W . possible interest of that kind could he have ?—(fica „ ' hear)—and why should he have the power of giving six or eight votes, swamping the tenant who really paid the rates. The tenant, paying 2GO/. a year had one vote' the owner, for 1501 a year six votes. An anomaly like this surely ought not to exist. If the principle of plurality of voting were good for anything, why not adopt it as to elections for Members of Parliatient. He would like to see the principle of Sir J. Hobhouse's Act car ried into general practice, for it had wo,~ked admirably. All be wished to do was to place owners an'd rate-payers on the same footing. Nothing would more tend to make the Poor-law palatable to the people ; but if the House still pet sisted in thrusting that measure down their throats, and rejected this slight amelioration of its severity ~n in " A in , would the army be increased or the police augtneate'' th e sonntry would never be governed by such a m•ockeri of repres,:mtation.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. EW ART seconded the instruction, because considered the existing system contrary to conical sense, for the only principle on which the franchise coula be granted was the fact of f ree a g enc y. An d could free ' agency be multiplied by increasing property.—(llcars hear.) He objected to plurality of voting , m oreover, opposed to every constitutional principle, and every ancieo precedent in our electoral practices. Lord J. RUSSELL would not detain the House on till! question. It was one which might properly be considered on the general subject of the Amendment of the Poor LO' It was one which the House might recollect had already been fully discussed on the Sturges Bourne's AC?' and on the Poor-law Act. There had been be fore tb i! instructions moved upon the present Bill alien from ! t s ~ object, and he for one was not prepared to sanc tion t . n h f introduction of another tol;ie equally unconnected vvi, this measure, which was only intended to continue tlw Poor-law Commission. Colonel WOOD said, on a fitting oppGrtunity he shoa la be willin to correct the abuses of proxies. Lord BARRINGTON did not know any complaint s against the existing system. The House divided, and the numbers were— For the instruction Against it llO Majority . General JOHNSON then moved an instructio fen andto! prevent the improper separation of man from parent from children in the Union Workhouses. the proposition which, let it be observed , would n ot a pp ly t workhouses under ether Acts than' the New Poor La vi ", and in which, nevertheless, the co m p lained of se p aration ; took place.—( Hear, hear.) He su pp osed this was Par t , of the too prevalent system to cast ever y p ossible sti g ma the New Poor-law. A big Mr. WAKLEY sa id, often as be had ex p resso.. wi, opposition to the New Poor-law, he should consider hi, at self disgraced were he not now frankl y to dec lare tha• the result of a careful examination and of some experienca as a churchwarden in one of the argest metropolitao districts, was, that the separations referred to were 1 . 111 " a voicable—( Hear, hear, hear)—and the parties theta; selves would find it impossible to provide for them unlas this separation did take place.—( Heat., hear.) t o General JOHNSON re pli e d. He did not wan' ' , Acl throw odium on the new Poor-law—God knew it enough already—he wanted that the law shouid be in IV cordance with the law of God. The motion (by leave) was then withdrawn. so Mr. DARBY did not think it was clear to the 1-I°ll4 what course it was intended should be pursued.. 1 4 ,.,e clause ha to propose, and so had the Noble Lord. Pin, it was not discussing his clause fairly,for it was not known "l r ; ther if his clause were carried,theNoble Lord would aba ll 't, - a the It would be as well that the House should u awgre of what was the real intention of the Noble tior d ' 9 o Lord J. RUSSELL. —If the Bill were so altered he that the principles of the Act were departed from, an d . t de t evils of the old law admitted a g ain, h e would consi of himself justified abandoning the Bill. If the clause , the Hon. Member were carried, he tho ug ht it would ba,/th that effect, and therefore he would not proceed further the Bill.la w Sir B. HALL said, in the last Report of the °°r",,,ers Commisioners , it was proposed that all the voting Pard-ip s hould be delivered by the Poor - law Union offi4ersf 511- t he the Metropolitan parishes they should be de liiered bY oto cl constab!es of the Metropolitan police. He thOught it I c 6ne cl be better and more beneficial that they s hould be c 0 lacy to their own functions. The Bill was very unP ° P - t be in many parishes and that unpopularity would attach t 0 police if they were so employ' d. ~../" : it