The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-20 00:00:00

applied ?—The timber from the north of Europe almost exclusively to good build ings : of late years American timber has almost superseded the use of northern timber, in contract and slight buildings. VV hat do you conceive, as far as your trade is concerned, to be the proportion of that inferior timber which is applied to inferior purposes, to that of the better de scription of timber which is applied to the better purposes ?—The market has been so operated upon oflate years, that it is hardly possible to answer the question. Are there any purposes for which the inferior kind of timber brought from Ame rica answers as well as the superior kind from the north of Europe ?—For inferior purposes certainly, and for some superior purposes even better. Can you state at all the extent or magnitude of those purposes in which it answers as well or better ?—The consumption of London for packing cases; for mouldings, ' not merely mouldings for rooms, but for cast iron work and a variety of purposes, its magnitude and width gives it a great advantage over the smaller and narrower timber of the Baltic and Norway. Also for the purposes of ships' masts ?—I am not much in that line. Would it answer for scaffolding ?—No, I apprehend it would not answer for that; it is too short; I mean brittle. What proportion of the consumption of the timber that is used in this country do you conceive to be applied to those inferior purposes ?—The price of the last year has so operated, that I should think three-fourths, but I speak merely from conjecture; my consumption is principally for the larger description, and for better buildings; but I should say, speaking generally, that three-fourths used the last year have been American. What proportion does that wood, applicable to those purposes, and for which it is as good or better than northern timber, bear to the general consumption and im port of the country ?—A fourth or a fifth I should say; I speak with reference to the consumption of London and its neighbourhood. Do you conceive that if the timber from the North and the timber from Ame rica can be brought into the market at the same expense for those purposes, the American timber would still have the preference ?—I think it would, for those special purposes. Can you state what effect the imposition of "the high duties produced upon your trade?—lt filled our pockets in the first instance, and of late years has emptied them. Be so good as to explain in what way this happened ?—Our stocks in band were increased in value by the addition of the duty, and subsequently they have fallen again, by the introduction of American timber, which is without duty, which has brought northern produce in some measure below its proper or natural level. What effect was produced on your trade by the imposition of the high duties? —Probably it introduced one moiety of American produce; to other timber-mer chants it must have done a great deal more. Did it, in the same proportion, reduce your import of timber from the North? —Unquestionably. Do you apprehend that the same effect has taken place generally in the trade, that took place in your particular business?—l believe to a much larger extent with others than with ourselves. State the reason.—Because our demands are principally for the best buildings, and the best purposes, What effect do you apprehend would now be produced by an alteration or re duction of the duties on the timber from the north of Europe ?—I think, generally speaking, a very beneficial effect to the public in general. In what way?—Timber would not be applied improperly, that is, American timber would not be used where it ought not, as it now is. Do you apprehend that it would be likely to produce a great increase of the import from the northern ports of Europe?.—l have not a doubt of it. Do you believe that the effect of the imposition of duties has been to force out of consumption a great deal of the timber from the north of Europe, which ought to be applied to the better purposes of the country ?—I am quite sure of it. Do you believe that the consequence of that has been to make the buildings, and other things to which it is applied, less solid and less durable than they would otherwise have been?— Unquestionably. You have stated, that the present duties on Baltic timber have forced a great deal of it out of consumption; do you know in what proportion the consumption of Baltic timber in this country has been roduced?—No; excepting looking at the tables; the general public tables. Have you looked, since you gave your evidence in the House of Lords, at the official returns, printed in the Appendix to their Report?-1 have. Have you not found, by those returns, that the imports from the Baltic, so far from having diminished, as you stated, within the two last years, have very much increased ?—I do not think that is the fact. In your evidence before the Committee of the House of Lords, you were asked, " Whether the sale of Baltic timber has continued to diminish within the last two or three years ;" to which you replied, '• Certainly ; when I spoke before, I spoke of the quantity altogether; the American has superseded the Baltic timber, the price is so much lower:" Have you read the official returns of the quantities of timber imported from the Baltic, and do you not find the result to be, that so far from having diminished within the last two years, they have considerably in creased ?—The price was so low, it might,,in bulk, have caused a greater con sumption ; in value certainly not. In your answer here, you say you speak of the quantity altogether?—So I do still. The official returns are as to quantity, not as to price; has not the quantity in creased from all the northern powers of Europe, instead of diminishing ?—As far as my knowledge goes, I am satisfied it must be quite the contrary; and I am sure those tables must be constructed on some principle of taking either an eight-feet deal as a twenty-feet deal, or the bulk in someway that they must be quite irregular. Do you not find, that the quantity of fir timber from Norway, imported in the year 1816 was 10,239 load; in 1817, 15,501 load; in 1818, 26,257 load; and in 1819, 24,759 load?—I am quite sure then, that it must be the entering up of cargoes for the duty, and not the importation of them in the port of London. You speak of your knowledge with respect to your own trade, and the trade in the port of London?—l speak of my own knowledge principally; of what I my- 1 self am concerned in; I cannot speak generally, because I do not know generally. Has not the price of timber from North America fallen, as well as the price of timber from the Baltic?—lt has. Would not that tend to encourage the additional consumption of Baltic timber, in the same proportion as that of timber from North America ?—I am not quite sure of that. Has not the fall of price produced by the competition between timber from those different parts of the world, been advantageous to the public ?—I have no doubt to the consumer, excepting as before stated that it has caused the introduction of American timber to improper purposes. Is not that the fault or - want of judgment of the parties applying it?—People are often deceived ; you may have to pay so much a foot for timber which you sup pose to be Baltic timber, when in fact it is American; and it is covered up, and you know no better. Would any builder or surveyor of respectability impose in that manner upon gen tlemen who employed him ?-1t is impossible almost to detect it ; who is to watch every stick of timber put into a building ? it can be detected by experiment ; but if 1 were to produce the specimens, they would not be known in the first instance. Is it not the duty of professional gentlemen to see that proper timber is employ ed ?—They are not always employed; and it would be impossible when the timber is converted in the carpenter's yard, for them to know that improper timber has been employed; when it is in the roof of a building they cannot see that each in dividual stick is Baltic timber. You have stated in your evidence before the Lords, that you have scarcely ever known a ship built of. Norway timber to have the dry rot ?—I have. Have you seen the Danish sloop of war the Little Belt, which has lately been broken up at Battersea ?—I have not ; but she I believe was not Norway built; she was Danish. Do not the Danes use Norway timber in the construction of their vessels ?—I believe not ; very little timber is imported from Norway to Copenhagen. From whence do they bring their timber to Copenhagen ?—Principally from the Baltic. As you state Canada timber and American timber generally to be peculiarly subject to the dry rot, may not that arise in a great measure from its being floated down the rivers both in deals and in timber, and shipped in that state in the heat of an American summer, and in that heated state crossing the Atlantic in the hold of the ship ?—I believe that the first principles of that vegetation are acquired from that circumstance. You would consider deals which have been floated down previous to being shipped, more liable to infection than timber ?—Nearly equally so, for the bulk of timber generally in an American ship, gives it an equal degree of sweating : 1 have seen two cargoes of pitch pine timber affected to the heart with dry rot as they were discharged from the ship; that is now seven or eight years ago. May not that have happened from the timbers having been decayed before it was cut, in some instances ?- 2 -I think otherwise, and indeed I learnt otherwise on making an inquiry, that it was the length of the period it remained from capture .or some circumstances ; it remained above a twelvemonth heated in the ship. Do you recollect any instances in which timber has remained a considerable time on board ships coming from the North ?—I do. Have you observed the same effects ?—Yes, I have; but not to an equal extent. Is the effect of the confinement of timber during a long voyage frequently inju sious to the timber ? I have no question of that, when it has been taken in with moisture; moisture is, I am satisfied, the principal cause of dry rot. Ave you of opinion, that the pine of the north of Europe is in general better sea soned before it is shipped than the pine of North America? lam very much in- clined to think it is ; but I have no positive knowledge, excepting in Norway, where I have been, and seen the circumstances of its being shipped. Judging from the relative appearance of the timber of the north of Europe and of America, when landed here, would you be of that opinion generally, that the one was better seasoned than the other before shipping? I have no doubt as to the Norway timber, because I have known it, but I am not so sure about that parti cularly at Memel; I think from thence it has come greener, deals especially. Is not the timber of Memel in general much better squared than the timber of the North American Colonies? Certainly. Therefore, is there not reason to suppose, that the inferior part of the timber, which might more immediately introduce decay, is taken away in the squaring? It comes with very little sap, which more readily holds the moisture. Then are you of opinion, that if the timber of America was equally well squared and cleaned, it would be less subject to decay? Ido not think that has much to do with it, because the pine has very little sap. Have you been long acquainted with yellow pine as an article of importation to this country? Yes, I have. For what number of years? Twelve or fourteen at least. . Have you during that period had occasion to know yellow pine used for the or dinary purposes of house building, where it was not particularly exposed to damp, or shut closely up? Yes, I have. In such circumstances, have you found it durable and lasting, or subject to pre mature decay? Twelve years is a very limited period indeed for the decay of timber, but I certainly have observed its failure. It generally comes cleaner than the Baltic timber; but where the knots appear, the knot of the white spruce gets loose, and of the yellow pine it appears through the paint, notwithstanding all the endeavours to cover it with paint, which are two very oljectionable circumstances in building. Have you not found the dry-rot appear in timber so circumstanced, where it was neither exposed to particular damp, or closely shut up? Where it is used as skirting, or in floors, undoubtedly it is affected very rapidly by dry rot, led to it per haps from something else; if it gets near to brick rubbish, it is sure to go. What is the present relative price between the yellow pine of America and the fir of Riga? The yellow pine is about half the price of the other; say three guineas and six guineas per load of fifty feet. Has not a very general increase in the consumption of timber in the country taken place of late years.? lam not so sure of that; I have no tables that will enable me to speak to that point. Do you recollect, that in answer to a question to this effect, which was put be fore the Lords: "If the duties were the same, do you believe any American timber would be used ?" you answered, "Not one stick ?" I repeat, that using it as timber for beams or such purposes, we make a distinction, calling cut timber, deals, and timbers? in the log, timber. Are you acquainted with the quality of the yellow pine of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and the islands of the G ulph of St. Lawrence, as well as that of Canada ? I am. Do you consider, that there is any distinction or difference in quality between the yellow pine of one colony and another? There are shades of difference. But no material difference? I like the quality of the Miramichi rather better than the Quebec. Are you aware of any circumstance having been found out, by which the dry rot in American timber has been prevented? No; I have heard of various pre parations that are said to do it, but I have no faith in them. Do you know how the timber is generally brought to this country from the north of Europe? Generally. You have stated, that red pine as well as yellow, used for beams and placed in green walls in a confined situation, have perished within the short period of two years ; are you of opinion, that the timber of the Baltic would not have perished in a similar manner? Ido not think it would, at any rate, so readily ; it is a bad thing to put any timber in green walls ; it possibly would have perished, but not so readily. Is not the general character of American timber well known to the trade? Very well Describe the sorts of building you have specified as being of a superior class, for which Baltic timber is generally used in London? In those, which are under the act of parliament known as first and second rate buildings, Baltic timber is consumed; in those of the third, fourth, and other classes, American. Be so good as to state what are comprehended in first and second-rate buildings ? Churches, chapels, large warehouses, and gentlemen's houses fit for large families, families of opulence, are first and second-rate buildings; the second-rate only re spects a difference in the walls, they are carried to an equal height as the first-rate, but are less in dimension. Under which description do the buildings in the New Street come? The New Street is all first-rate buildings ; they are limited by the act of Parliament. Outhouses and buildings of that description are not of that class? No, in those appendage buildings American timber is frequently used. To all those sorts of buildings the American timber is used as a matter of cheap ness? Generally speaking so; some persons will not have it. If the duties were in any degree equalized, and the American timber still conti- nued to be cheaper than that brought from the North, do not you think it would still continue to be used for those purposes? To a certain extent. At what proportionable price do you think the American timber would be used in preference to the Baltic timber? It may be at one third less. For all purposes? No, for inferior purposes; for superior ones they will not use it at all. Is not the scale of durability on which inferior buildings are constructed, as to brick work, such as that the American timber is likely to last as long as the build ing will in other respects ? I think not ; it is not a matter of my experience to say so • but my opinion is certainly, that the timber will go before the building; deed in some individualir.stances I have known it do so, they have taken it out, but it has been principally from the greenness of the wall Will not a builder endeavour so to construct his buildings as to make the duration of one material keep pace with that of the other as nearly as possible? He ought. Presuming that a change was to take place in the manner of levying the duties now payable on deals, by placing them on a footing with the duties payable on square timber; and that this change of system led to the diminished importation of deals, and an increased importation of timber, would the facilities be found in this country sufficient for cutting up the timber into deals at a moderate expense? I think not. Do not you think, that if the duties were soregulated, establishments for sawing by steam or otherwise would be found ? I think not, because the deals come from the ship directly to the merchants yard, the duty has forced them into the docks; but merchants who can pay their duties take them into their yards in - the first in stance, and there they are to the consumer's hands exactly the thing which he wants, and there is no waste of slab or otherwise. Are you not aware that an establishment has been formed under the sanction of government for sawing timber in the docks, where it is landed and warehoused ? A permission has been given for the purpose of exportation, and I have availed myself of it to saw for exportation, but not for home consumption. If the same facility was extended to home consumption, would not every objec tion you have stated in the present state of things to the sawing mills here at a moderate expence be done away? I am sure it would not. What objections would then remain ? Deals cannot come in a more convenient form . than they do ; of all classes such as a man can readily handle and use, one of the reasons of the convenience of the Norway deal is, that it is easily carried, it is easily put upon a cart, and there are various other circumstances of convenience about it. Would it not be equally easily carried, if it were sawed in this country ? After it was sawed unquestionably. Are you aware that the principal sawing establishments at Riga are by steam? I believe they are. Are you aware that the Dutch have, for the purpose of encouraging their own saw mills, prohibited the importation of wood in any other shape but of the log? They have almost always had their timber in the log from Norway. Is not the importation in deals altogether prohibited? Not to my knowledge. In France it is very much encouraged, and in the minutest leaves possible. Are you of opinion that if the duties on deals were placed on a footing with the duty on square timber, the importation of deals would not be diminished? I should wish to consider that question before I answer it. Is the committee to understand that no timber used in this country for deals, comes otherwise from the Baltic than in the shape of deals? ,I do not believe that there does. I imported some myself from Norway for the purpose of sawing, and found it would not answer. Are you aware that there is a very extensive establishment of saw mil's at Leith, where timber is imported expressly for the purpose of being there cut into deals ? I have heard it, but do not know it. Are you aware of any objection there would be to making the duties equal the duties upon the deals and upon the log ? It would be an eternal trouble. In what way? They are none of them so exactly of a size that they could be counted into quantity. Would there be any difficulty in taking the duty on the cubic contents of deals? I think that would prolong exceedingly the discharge of a ship; we find it takes a great while to count out five or six hundred deals; that there would be a great delay I am satisfied. Would not there be less delay in taking the cubic contents than by the count ? No, certainly not; it would in my opinion afford opportunity for cheating; the officer I fear would never be kept in order. Supposing it to be desirable to equalize the duty upon the log and upon the deals, what allowance should in your opinion be made for waste in sawing the logs into deals? I think there would be the injury of quality as well as the injury of waste, because many deals turn out bad when they are sawn out of the log and thrown aside, they will come here in a different state of perfection. Supposing the log to be cut up without any defect, what would be the difference arising from the mere waste? It cannot cut up without defect, because every log of timber that I have seen is more or less shaken, even supposing it to have no bad knots; it is an impossibility almost. To what do you attribute the great increase of the importation of timber from America within the last two or three years; is it attributable to the demands of the country, or to any other cause ? The want of employing capital I think has had a great deal to do with it ; persons have been sending their capital into all sorts of experiments, many detrimental ones I am sure. Do not you suppose the want of employment of shipping has had to do with it also ? I suppose it has had to do with it ; the last cargo of Miramashee timber sold for 31. Is. and the freight was five and forty shillings ; that could pay nobody. Do you mean that the 31. Is. includes the 455. freight? Yes, and all other charges and expences, to bring it up to my yard in Westminster at 31. Is.: I have had many cargoes offered to me to take them up at the freight. Mr. Lancelot Holland called in; and Examined. In what business are you engaged ? A timber merchant. Are you also a builder? No, I have never been a builder. You are acquainted with the timber of the north of Europe and of North Ame rica? Buying and selling considerably all foreign timber. Can you speak to the comparative quality of the two different kinds of timber? The best timber which comes into London, I believe to be the Riga timber. The Dantzic timber is a larger grown timber; it is of a size which you cannot procure from Riga, and the quality is perhaps quite as good. I think the general prejudice is in favour of the Riga; and that next to those comes the Memel, which is of ex actly the same size as the Riga timber, but it is coarser; it is more knotty, and therefore more liable to break. Then comes the Swedish timber next to that, and the red pine timber from America. I omitted Norway timber, because there is so very small a quantity of it used ; the duty is so very heavy ; there is hardly any of it imported to make it a subject of consideration ; the red pine timber is about equal in price, and I believe as good as the Swedish timber in quality. Where would you place the Norway timber in point of quality ? Perhaps first, certainly not second to any. After the red pine, you come into a large field of different timbers, which come from America, which are all called the yellow pine, ... and are all of an inferior quality, of a softer wood. What are the differences? I think that shipped from Miramashee is rather stronger than what comes from Quebec. You consider the American timber as greatly inferior to the Baltic? Not the red pine. I think if the red pine is well manufactured, it is as good.as any timber that comes into London. I believe if the red pine could be manufactured so as to be exactly like Itiga timber, there would not be more than lOs. a load, I am sure not more than ss:difference between the value of that and Memel timber; but in the manufactory, it is to be considered, the timber is all measured here, and if it is not quite square and parallel there is a great loss, the angles being measured as if they were square; this loss might amcunt to about 10 per cent. Do you consider the yellow timber as very inferior ? That is not fit for building purposes; it is very good for some purposes; for finishing the inside of rooms it will do, but it will not do for strength; it is a much weaker timber. I speak both of the Quebec and the Miramashee. In point of durability, how do you rank them? That is according to the pur pose; this table will last if it is made of either, but if you put the American in damp situations, it will perish more 'rapidly than any other. Is it more liable to the dry rot? All fir is liable to the dry rot; but I think the soil is more congenial to the growth of the dry rot in yellow pine ; the wood is more obnoxious to it. Much more than in the red pine? Much more than any other timber. Is the red pine more liable to it? I apprehend it is not more so than Swedish timber. Do you apprehend the length of the voyage from America contributes to the dry rot? If wood is put on board a ship in a damp state, which it is nine times in ten, you will see a tendency to dry rot whenever the timber is delivered, that is, you will see the commencement of the dry rot on the surface. By wet do you mean green ? Not entirely ;in Memel it is kept under water, when they wish to preserve it, for a great length of time ; they consider that will preserve it better than an alternate exposure to wet and dry. Have you observed this more in the American timber than in the timber from the Baltic ? The voyage being longer, the dry rot has had more time to grow ; but if it is shipped in a dry condition, it will come out perfectly good and sound. Do you know the different purposes to which the different kinds of timber are generally applied? The first timbers I mentioned are applied for what is called builders' purposes, that is to say, for the frame work of a house ; then the yellow pine is not at all applicable to that purpose; the red pine is. To what purpose is the yellow pine applicable? The yellow pine is used by coach makers, blind makers ; it is better for musical instrument makers than any other ; for mouldings, where you want soft wood to carve picture frames ; chests and packing cases, to an immense amount. What proportion of the wood imported into this country is employed for those purposes ? It would astonish the committee to know the quantity used for packing cases in London alone ; if I were to guess, I should say one-fourth of the whole wood that comes into London. For those infe►ior purposes this description of wood is as good as the superior description would be ? No, not for the packing cases altogether ; a great number of the packing cases made for long voyages they are obliged to make out of Baltic deals, because the American is so very softit will not hold the nails; the East India Company have perhaps half, and half or rather more Baltic than half; they will not admit it except for copper cases; for their stationery, and other things they are very anxious to preserve; where the splitting of wood would be of consequence, they will not admit the American. Do they use the Baltic timber now for many of those purposes? The Baltic deals are used for packing cases to a very great extent ; the price is not very different. Supposing that the freight, insurance, and all charges were the same on American and Baltic timber, and the duty equal, what effect would that have upon the sale of American timber ? Almost a total exclusion of the American timber. To what extent could the duty be laid on American timber to bring it on equal terms, considering its relative value to Baltic timber, to market ? I apprehend that the American timber would not bear a duty of more than lOs. or 15s. per load of fifty feet, with a proportion on deals, and I think it would bear that duty, and continue to sell very freely. 1 should like to lay more upon the red pine, because at this time it sells in London for 2L a load more than the yellow pine, namely 51. for the best of it; therefore if theyican bring the yellow pine to London, and sell it for 31. and can obtain 51. for the red pine, they must in the country receive a price of 21. a load for their red pine beyond what they get for their yellow pine, therefore I imagine they must have an enormous profit, for all we pay at Memel is about 255. a load for timber; Now suppose, at the present prices, the yellow pine leaves but ten shillings a load for the prime cost, the red pine at 51. a load would leave fifty shillings. Supposing the freight upon a load of timber from Memel were 21s. and the freight upon a load of timber from Quebec were 455. would a duty then imposed of 10s. a load upon yellow American pine admit of its being imported into London ? I think it would. You think 10s. is as much as it would bear ? From 10s. to 15s. What is the present price of Memel timber in London? It has lately risen ss. in consequence of a small supply in the autumn,,it is about 61. ss. ; 61. has been about the price for the last six months. What is the price of American yellow pine? From 31. to 31. ss. Upon the same grounds that these questions have been put, how much do you think the duty on foreign timber might be lowered, so as to admit the Canadian yellow pine into this country ? I think if you lowered the duty on the foreign timber, you would raise the price in the country where you imported it from. You think the price would remain the same here? I think it would, or there would be very little difference. Why should lowering the duty raise the price in the country; unless it augmented the consumption in this country? It would check the diminution of the quantities of timber imported from the Baltic ; the merchants are now in a very ruined state; the merchants at Memel, which is the principal port from which we get building timber, are gaining nothing : they are selling the timber at the price it stands them in, within a shilling or two; there are efforts made every spring to raise it; this year they have met together and combined to raise the price ss. a load ; and I ap prehend, that if anv amount of duty were taken off, the greater part of it would go to facilitate their object, because the quantities that are imported from Memel are annually diminishing most prodigiously; the quantities imported from America are annually increasing in an equal ratio. The quantity of timber from America, im ported into the port of London last year, was double that from Memel : one is gradually going out, and the other is gradually coming in; if the importation of late years be examined, the progress of it will be seen. Has the importation from other ports in the Baltic decreased in an equal degree? Yes, quite ; I include all the ports of the Baltic. You have stated that in your opinion the red pine would not be more subject to dry rot, than the timber which came from the Baltic; have you had any experience of the use of the red pine in buildings ? My experience is, having sold it to builders, and having heard their retorts; not from any personal knowledge of my own; I have not had sufficient experience of it to speak decidedly from what I have seen : but the red pine deals in the piles do not get the dry rot sooner than yellow deals. Your answer was grounded on what you heard from builders to whom you have sold the timber, and the experience you have had of the piles in your timber yard ? Exactly so. Do you know from what part of America the red pine principally comes? There is a good deal comes from the United States ; but they have latterly sent a good deal from New Brunswick, from what are called the lower ports; there is a good deal grows in our own colony. Is there any comes from the river St. Lawrence? Yes, it does not grow near Quebec. If a duty of I Os. per load were imposed on yellow pine from Canada, sold here at 31. to 31. ss. per load, what net proceeds would remain to the importer after paying freight and charges? Little or nothing. If yellow pine, at the present market price, after paying the charges, does not leave a sufficient surplus to cover the prime cost, on what principle do you propose to subject it to a duty of from ten to fifteen shillings a load ? Because the Ame ricans have glutted the English market, and therefore it is unnaturally depressed. You are then of opinion, that if such a duty was laid on American pine timber, the market price would advance in proportion to the amount of duty, and that the consumption would not be affected thereby ? I apprehend that the consumption would be checked in some degree: but I think that would be a very good thing, there is a great deal of it improperly used. Would not the effect of a duty of from 10s. to 15s. on Canada timber be so far to increase the demand for timber from the north of Europe, as to occasion a rise of price in those ports? If the American timber now bore its natural price, I think it would have that effect ; but as it is now unnaturally depressed, I do not think it would ; I do not apprehend it would affect, in any way, the price at Memel; the difference at this moment is what it cannot continue to be. Supposing that a duty of from 10s. to 15s. on American timber was to continue in operation for a considerable number of years, during which it is probable the market would again be in an ordinary and healthy state, do you think that American timber would continue to be used for buildings ? I think it would continue to be used, but not so much. If a duty somewhat higher was imposed thah that which you have suggested, might it not have the effect of excluding Canada timber entirely frombuildings, and yet to leave it open to the market, which you have stated to arise 'from packing cases and other purposes for which it is particularly applicable? It certainly might. Can you inform the committee what duty Canada timber would bear, if its quality was equal' to the Baltic timber, and if it was only exposed to the higher charges which arise from a longer voyage, and from its being brought down to the water with greater difficulty? lam not aware of its being brought down to the water with greater difficulty ; but setting that aside, 21. would put it on a level, that is, the dif ference between the duty and the freight ; I take the difference of the freight, and subtract that from the duty. Are you acquainted with the quarters in America from whence the red pine is brought? No, lam not; my answer had reference to the yellow pine only. [Adjourned to Thursday next at one o'clock.. Jovis, 15° die Februarii, 1821. The Right Honourable THOM A S WALLACE, in the Chair. Mr. Lancelot Holland again called in ; and further examined. Be so good as to state what are the present prices of yellow Canadian deals? Fourteen pounds, by the Petersburg standard, which is the usual standard by which they are sold, What is the price of the Baltic plank? It would average about 181. for yellow, by the same standard, and about 151. I Os. for white wood. . , Then do you not from that conclude in the public estimation, that is to say, in the estimation of those who use the timber, the value of the Canadian pine, as com pared with the Baltic white pine, is as 141. to 151. 10s. and as compared with the yellow pine is as 141. to 181. ? I think at least that I should say if Baltic deals were to rise it would not make the other rise; I think if Baltic plank sold at 201. American plank would continue to sell at 141.; therefore I do not think that it is quite conclusive. Do you think the circumstance of Parliament occupying itself with the timber trade has had the effect of varying the price of Baltic or Canada timber? I con ceive the importation of deals from America to have fallen short in 1820, and im portation of timber to have increased. Do you attribute this alteration to the apprehension of any alteration in the re gulation of the duties ? I think in 1819 there was an increased importation under the expectation of a duty being laid upon American deals, and I think our market was glutted, and that has checked the importation this year (season 1820;) the observation applies to deals. Do you not think that until the question is in some way or other settled, the im portations will take place out of proportion to the consumption of the country ? Certainly. Are you not of opinion that any alterations of the duties which shall have the effect of a graduated alteration, will be constantly an encouragement to the im porters from the Colonies to glut the market with timber beyond what it can carry off? Certainly ; lam of that opinion very decidedly. Would it not therefore, be in your opinion, wiser policy and more consistent with justice towards timber dealers in this country, and those concerned in the importation, for parliament to regulate at once a permanent system of duties upon that important article ?—I am of opinion it would be decidedly for the good of all parties. Be so good as to state the market price of colonial yellow pine timber per load ? From 31. to 31. ss. The Russia yellow pine ? The Memel timber, 61, ss. Riga timber, 61. 10s. Supposing a duty of ten shillings laid upon the load of American timber, would not that bring the price to 31. 15s, for the purpose of affording the same freight, charges and prime cost which it at present affords ?—Certainly. Do you think, if the price of the colonial pine were at 31. 15s. while the yellow Russian pine remains at 61. ss. to 61. 10s. that there would be the same demand for the colonial timber, in proportion to the Russian timber, which now exists ? When the ports are open, I think that the price of Russian timber would be more fairly taken at 61. to 61.55. that the rise of the price of ten shillings in the yellow and American pine would not materially diminish the consumption of it. Do you think a rise of fifteen shillings would ? I think after ten shillings it would; but I think it would be used to a very great extent, whilst the difference between the yellow pine and the Baltic timber was thirty shillings per load. Supposing the relative duties upon the two species 'of timber to be altered, by taking off duty upon European timber, would that proportion of duty taken ofl from Russian timber act in the same manner as the same amount of duty laid on the colonial timber ? I think it would not. What proportion of duty, according to your opinion, might be taken off of European timber, before any effect would be felt in the consumption of the Ameri can timber ? The question is difficult to answer; because I think the taking off the duty from Baltic timber would tend to raise the price of that article in the country. Supposing it to produce no effect, but the markets there were to remain the same, would the effect here, of taking off the duty on the Baltic timber, be, in your opinion, exactly equivalent to laying on the same amount of duty on the American timber? Certainly. If in place of laying a duty of ten shillings on American timber, the duty on foreign timber was to be reduced ten shillings, should you be of opinion that would increase the demand of foreign timber ? Not materially. Are you of opinion, that a duty of ten shillings laid on American timber, would lead to the importation of timber of a superior quality, and better prepared? No, not to any extent. Supposing the prime cost of colonial yellow timber to be 11. per load in the country, the freight to be 21. 10s. and the charges ten shillings, making together 41. if ten shillings was added to that, would yellow pine continue to bear a fair demand in the market at 41. 10s. while Baltic timber was selling at 61.? The con sumption of it would be considerably diminished I should think, but there would be still a very considerable market for it. In what proportion do you think the consumption would be reduced ? I dare say nearly half. Is it your opinion, that supposing the duties remained as they are at present, the trade in Canada timber is likely to continue to the same extent? I think it would go on increasingly. - How is that consistent with its being carried on to its present extent at a loss ? Because my answer had a reference to the last series of years, and not to the pre sent moment merely. Would such an imposition of duty as would produce a diminution of one half of the trade in Canadian timber, produce a correspondent increase in the Baltic trade ? Yes, without an increase in the price should in a smaller degree lessen the con sumption of timber. Do you in giving your evidence before the committee, speak with a particular reference to the London market, or with a view to the general market of the king dom ? Entirely with reference to the London market. You are aware that the present existing duty on deals and battens is lower than, the duty on the same quantity of timber in the log ? I believe that to be the case, with the exception of Norway goods. What would be the effect in your opinion of equalizing the duty on wood in its different shapes, so as to take it generally upon its cubic contents ? I think that it would produce a great deal of inconvenience; it is a very difficult thing to do; every cargo would be a great deal longer in delivering than it now is; there would be a vast number of officers in attendance, and a great expence on that account would be incurred, besides which constant bickerings about the deals being an inch narrower or an inch larger would take place; and that in general it would create great delay. Are you aware of any other difficulties? I think likewise it would not be fair upon those ports which are more distant and have a higher freight to pay; the ship can make two voyages to Norway, for instance, while she can only make on e to Riga or Petersburg; therefore Norway can bear a heavier duty than Riga : but I think the difficulty may be got over hycircumscribing the present dimensions, a nd then the duty can be levied in a much more simple manner; the Norwegians have now an advantage, and one only, S in exporting eight-feet deals ; I should therefore say in fairness I should make the present duty on deal ends, to commence at one foot lower instead of eight feet ; I shouldbegin to call any thing above seven feet a deal, and then I think Norway borne very hardly upon by the Russian ports, by their twenty-feet deals ; I should therefore circumscribe their length, and limit them to sixteen feet ; the average of Norway deals is now about thirteen feet long, three inches thick, nine inches wide ; therefore they would still pay a heavier duty than those distant ports which have to pay a heavier freight. The duty on deals, the committee understand, can now be only collected by men surin,g the thickness of the deals; are you aware whether that is so ? It can only be collected in that manner; but in consequence of the duty, there is onedimension entirely shipped from each port, for they take the utmost extent to which you limit them • and if you were to say th a t on ly s i x t een -f eet d ea l s s h a ll b e i mporte d , yo u wouldnot then have any fifteen-feet deals from parts which can export sixteen-feet ; but if you were to take the duty by the cubical contents, it would enable the mer chants to ship all shapes and sizes, and therefore there would be great difficulty in collecting the duties. _ _ If a plan were devised that would obviate the difficulties you have stated, and by which the relative proportion of duties new payable on deals imported from different countries was preserved, would it be advisable, in your opinion, to alter the present duty on deals, so as to bring it substantially to the present rate now payable on the same timber? I think it would be a very desirable thing to equalize the duties, to let deals and timber pay equally; for now the raw material is paying less than the manufactured one, I should think that would be unobjectionable. Then if such a system was adopted, do you think it would lead to a decreased importation of deals, and to an increased importation of timber? Ido not think it would to any extent. Are you aware of any objection why the duty should not be altered to such an extent as to give some encouragement to the saw mills of this country? If you were to saw your own deals in this country, you would entirely alter the system of the timber trade both abroad and in this country; you would bring over a great deal of wood which would be of a very bad quality, for in opening timber a very large proportion of it is found not to be fit to be converted into deals, and which is kept back in the country where it is cut. Slabs, saw-dust, and waste, would be brought over here, duty would be paid upon it, freight would be paid upon it, and it would be of no use to the country. Do you believe that deals are sawed into shorter pieces, for the purpose of coming in as deal ends? I think they have got ten and eleven-feet deals left on hand, which they have been obliged to reduce to eight-feet deals, and they have not lately manu factured a great number of that size to bring to this country , but I think if the same system was to continue, it would be so to a very great extent. Are deal ends used for the general system of building in this country? Yes. Do you see any disadvantages that would arise from equalizing the duty between the deal ends and the larger deals? Ido not think that they would come near the same price in the market, and therefore I think there would be a loss to the mer chant ; every cargo must bring some proportion of deal ends for broken stowage. Presuming it was the object of the legislature, when it laid on the duty on deal ends, to encourage them being brought as broken stowage, is it not a fact that theY are now brought as cargoes ? Yes. if the present relative proportion of duty on deals was preserved, and a scale advanced to place them on a proportionate footing with the duty on square timber, would such a measure, in your opinion, be practicable and advisable? Yes ; but I think the present duty on twenty-feet deals is not in proportion, and ought to be increased, because at present the duty upon Norway deals, by the load, amou g n r t e s a t t o er 3 t L ha i n 7 st , h l e d d , iffanedreunpcoenotfhe the B f a r l e t i i g c h plank to 21. I s. Bd. a difference consider ably Mr. Brodie Augustus 111‘Ghie ; called in, and examined. Will you have the goodness to state what you are? lam at present a ship' broker, and concerned in repairing and building of ships. To a considerable extent ? Yes ; lam concerned in three docks. Can you speak of the durability of ships that have been built of different de scriptions of timber ? Yes ; I have seen a great number of ships ) I have had a great many go through my hands, which have been repaired; I have see ° several that have been built in different countries. Will you state the result of your observations upon ships which have been bd of American timber? The durability of ships chiefly depend upon the seasoning of the timber; 1 am of opinion, that ships built with Quebec white oak is veil` nearly equal to English white oak ; and, in many instances, the English timber has decayed first; I know of five or six instances of ships that were built in this cour t try ; one was called the Minerva, 600 tons, built at Lancaster, of En g li s h oa k, a ll` she was obliged to be rebuilt after six years, in consequence of the dry rot. Ther e was another ship, called the Batavia, of 500 tons, built at Topsham ; she was like wise built with English oak. When six years old there was the Alexander ; she is now in the river ; she was built at Hull about six years back, and she was total!' rebuilt about two months back. All those ships were obliged to be rebuilt, in consequence of the dry rot ? Yes; there was the Atlas, of 1200 tons, an East-Indiaman, built by Staniforth & Co' of Hull; she was nearly rebuilt when seven years old, from the dry rot. There, was a 74-gun ship, the Blake, which was built at Deptford, with German an d Baltic oak, and was sold and broke up, occasioned by the dry rot ; when sore ° years old, she was sold out of the government service as not worthy of being re paired; she was built with German and Baltic oak ; I can speak of this to my own knowledge. Was there any other timber made use of, in the construction of those s hips? Not in the first; there was nothing but English timber; what the decks were I ay' not acquainted with ; they might be American or Baltic, but that forms an immtv terial quantity. Supposing the decks or the bulwarks, or any other parts of the ship, which or e built of fir, whether of America or any other, do you suppose it would be at likely that they could have communicated the dry rot to the other part of the shill Not at all. You have spoken of several English ships which have been broke up, in CO sequence of the dry rot ; can you speak to any ships which have been built wit': American timber, and which have lasted as long? I have seen several ships t ha ` have been built at Quebec, which, when ten or twelve years were expired, were none of them so bad as those ships. • Have you seen any vessels built of Canadian timber that have bean broken up at