The Sun. — London, England, 1836-04-19 00:00:00

Repor.s and similar s t atements which are detached in the various from the statement in the general Report, and from ite: the general it gFuaral admission of all wh o h ave s p o k en u p on t h e sub clear is clear and undoubted that the Irish Corporations, as ton at present exist, demand a thorough and entire reforma none of(""r. hear.) I t i s unquestionable that they perform no n - perf t o b r m e performance whi c h t h ey oug h t to per f orm, an d that the t t h hose Co of th ose d ut i es has necessarily produced all 14:evils which fl ow from bodies invested with authority which 3c Lordsot use wisely, beneficially, or efficiently.--( Hear.) e g Y eet ,,, the present measure is necessary, for the purpose of sig,ert"Y•ea.rrying out the great measure by which you . de toureire_ro o 'chew.= the Roman Catholic population of this em. e: d. e t .. m the restrictions under which they had previously la _ear e t A.t present these Corporations not only exclude Ro e,T.,_uoati.io!les from their body, but also those Protestants . pinions are not agreeable to them ; the consequence is, t.hi:hriooolt 1 in Ireland are there divisions between Roman and Protestants, but there is also a great divi en_ t the Protestants among themselves. I will put it 14 the House,. then, whether, for the purpose . of carrying out that Brea, . measure into full and effective operation, they d va . or, a not feel that it is incumbent upon them to make pro landof-r admitting- all classes of his Majesty's subjects in Ire ta.. f whatever religious opinions, to a due share of the beaura.genlent and administration of these towns. ( Hear, hear, 1 . 4 _2 .. It is with this object that the present Bill has been the .It is founded almost entirely upon the principle of sh Bill, which your lordships passed last year, and 1. 4 "- 1 -" o w es, in great part, the work of a Noble and Learned th e: n the other side of the House. I may here observe, shea ,, was sorry t h e other night to hear the Noble Lord in Sat somewhat disparagingly of this Act. The Noble Lord -Peaking of it, sa i d " as it was now the law of the land, " -17 - 7 as though he regretted that such was the case : it seemed rather unuatural, on the part of th e N o bl e an d Learned Lord, Ze n peak w i th so little feeling about his own offspring.—(A l i.) To p rocee d : the Bill now presented, I will repeat th rfg ei ned, for the most part, upon the Bill of last year. With to e provi s i ons of that measure it would be disrespectful in me thsuPeose that Noble Lords' habits of business had not led sideu make themselves well acquainted, more especially eon th!ring how important were those provisons, and how closely f‘ ,..e Whole of it was debated. It will not be necessary, there- I n for Me to do more than to state generally the points upon h e ,. II it agrees with the other Bill, and the points upon which reaers from it. The course of proceeding in respect to all Ike charters was the same as in the English Act. It in uetl.., man ner asl reser . ves, as in that Act, all the rights of freemen, ret Ze I as inchoate, and all the rights of property. It ns the same form of local government, mayor, aldermen, eud to w th n-eouncil, and generally the same form with respect _p,e.r appointm en t. It g i ves the same power to appoint s iolss offi cers , an d to g i ve compensat i on. I t ma k es Mic e. LeselY the same re g u lations with respect to trusts and cha nt. It gives the same power in respect to the appointment fund constables • the same regulation as to the boro9g end and the payment of officers out of it, and as to imposing rate s , the leas; ecre are the same restrictions and regulations as to g u l a ing out corporate property—there are the same re as to as to the disosal of advowsons in the gift of cor eoratious , is j ust . —tnere the same power and . mode of appointing attra 'Fo.s ., , and. generally the same regulations as to the general inistration of justice. The recorder is made sole judge at of conscience, borough sessions. There is some exception as to the courts euuseienee, which have been found very beneficial in the town s of Ireland, and which are retained. There is the same capower vested in the Crown to raise towns into corporations. rte are the principal points on which there is a general z e agree between. the Bills. I will now state the points on which toereil.a difference between them. The first of these is as Ittitnie f qualification, which is proposed to be put upon a different hone what prevails either in England or Scotland. It u . '" b een considered that to confine the qualifications through it Irelend to persons having houses of 101. yearly value Gould have the effect of defeating the object of the measure, a nd it has thereforebeen arranged that such a qualification should aPPI th y to only seven towns in Ireland, the qualification ee other towns will be only 51. per annum. This regul s whil e i t prevents the risk of too large a const i tuency in h ' e rgo towns, w ill i nsure a sufficient constituency in the 304fialer ones. Another difference is a mere necessary change uale e b • which the duties, which are under the English 3 :.(P to be fulfilled by the overseers of the poor, are, under . the f i t Act, to be performed by the churchwardens, there being 140-eAuree no such officers as overseers of the poor in he m.'" mother alter a ti on i s , that which transfers the appoint oest of the a ss i stant b arr i sters , which in the English Act is la key ; e a in the Judees, to the drown, an alteration which it " e url gener a lly t h oug ht a d v i sa bl e t o ma k e . A s th e Bill vdeoriginelly introduced, it was not proposed to appoint any e r men, but it pleased that House to make an alteration potstue is this respect. The Common Council had the aie e r given them to elect a certain number of persons the-ger/nen in each ' place. By the operation of this arrange. le er , t a greater power was given to one party in the e t e . P l Ol than, he was sure, the proposers of the tchaenegeifiim e ' h eed they should have over, the other. Councillors to instance , 1)3,, hod where the number of the elected ald e ti e municipal constituency was 12, there would be four t h at resen to he elected by those councillors. Now, supposing tteol T the councils there were seven elected on one side, they tu be n , led to give themselves a greatly preponderating by t leaving the election of aldermen ; and instead of a, Parties standing in the proportion of 7 to 5, there would be 1 1 eon of four to the majority, and they w . ould . stand as p,, t° , 5 - This, therefore, was not a fair proportion in the ex .; th e of the - opinion of the place, as had been manifested l elip ectiou of the town council. It was therefore proposed to e t " is Bill, that the ald ermen an d the whole of the town tl, t -t 'eil should be elected at once by the burgesses. The 34th use reserved to Parliam en t th e r i g ht t o divide certain bo -teak'els into wards. This power in the English Bill was given ei the r evising barristers ; but it was intended that this deci -40 should be carried into effect by another Bill, to pass dur -4,,,th,e Present session. The 55th clause also left to the Lord te‘enant the appointment of sheriffs. Under the English those functionaries were elected by the town councils._ H e hi d not Observ e how much these officers were connected with tit: administration of justice, and under the peculiar circum tv'exes of Ireland it might be better that they were not elected 4130,,u1ar election. He had stated the grounds upon which he ou ght it absolutely necessary why their Lordships should an the 4 1 11 the present Bill. He had pointed out how it agreed with ei ;let -with respect to English municipal corporation towns, and Af t 44 ale ° poi n t e d out how far it differed from the English Bill. % e t this .he should have contented himself with moving that should be agreed to, if it had not been for the view it. e nd for a motion made in another place with respect to the As he fouled what he alluded to stood on the journals of shi°tiler Hou se h e could call the attent i on o f t h e i r Lord thelis to it withoet any i m p ro p r i e ty, a nd without a breach of fat of the House What was proposed in the Bill was, he Av `"ere should be a reform in the Irish Corporations ; but aced ties this met ') It was admitted by those who had pur e Course he had alluded to in another place that the t nerl t c ' teti cis as then constituted, and with the state of the to ex .:3' , and with the state of the law, should not be allowed tes eit i a t • They contended, however, that there were such dif tiejare'll between the two countries, and such bitterness and aPpii„ slt ies, that it would not be wise to pass the same measure . as 1 1e e -able to that county as to this. In the observations which luasletlt called upon to make on this point, he was most . aux (itclaZ Preserve a temperate tone, and to avoid any thing like r ise t at '.° ll , or the expression of opinions calculated to give th ose ° bitter feelings. He would not, therefore, charge 'to t i eh ' 4 o adopted the opinions he alluded to with a wish ‘toulaY justic e to persons in one part of the empire. . He w a il ' not ea ., , they • = = L that what intenaea was not in unison rg4,,t,iie course of political conduct they had hitherto ota er 'o, nor would he excite individuals in this or the a ea t - ecountey to believe that there was an attempt to th ' e ,ete pal justice to the two countries. He wished -ac t t 0 say a few words independent of those topics which Ne ut. . ° ear the appearance of personal invective or recri ,l„i'lealehttl,;__,Bl_ the first place, however, he begged most ells ', (l i r eunet that there might be parts of a territory subject tale, °minion which might require a different system of stia Z i t, ere ')ta .might be such a at difference in the . civili- t i , l l the state of property . or . . religion, or in the laws Toper or habits of men inhabiting two parts_ of the he f t-r e er Pi h re_ that undoubtedly they might require different a e '?ey„ , ,p,- overnment.—( Hear, h hear.) r ) r,l'n ma d e this measure he understood . that ' . a proposition had :•-e * pa ''-te elsewhere to do away entirely with the Municipal .. 1 11 4 % th o : e at o i r in Ireland, and to merge all . the existing rights , ey with too rese of the country. That it was intended to do ( 1/I!s ieet i to til ell the remaining Corporations, and to make all In the gen of the country, but, of course in tt , thi _ general law e t e 3 to make provision for the due ' administration of iq to v e r e h r r ,tY now in the hands of the Corporations. For `ie'r e t at ee hind said that he would not make any outbreak oe i shi eras that he intended to use, he hoped that their f A e et r world not say that he departed from the . line of . e ° 'Op os l ' h en Ell observed that he was a little surprised at % 1(1-1 1 ar, when he recollected the quarter whence it came. aeas ' e _ur : ) He was surprised that such a proposition h y 'the e •from the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for the itt), • . as , .tor it was very unlike the course of policy pursued tit N °lpursued it was unlike the whole of the course by t a 9ek e opposite. He was about to observe some thksite point, of which he did not think Noble Lords ti e e Y vieui!rp complain ; on the contrary, be thought that b ,,,!! i s , sa - ether desire such praise. He then had no hesita. V i ka f or 3 ' l T if,' that the course proposed was rather too bold l a to e t i h a e I na; t h e ,. . ',lit Hon. Baronet or the Noble Duke, reeo - 4f__ w ed a me they had hitherto pursued. They had fol e4ferd.......eitoirel • cautions policy in the measures they had brought Beige Period 7 : a bad_ generally proposed their measures at too Low,ee, c s t I . time, and they had been too narrow for th th _ the occasions that had called for them. Thg it t 7 .s eo ll ,,'v , • , 74. )tended to go to an oposite extreme, for in e r ,e,= e ad I ) .ropoi led the measure was p larger than was neces ,4 l t was too soon, in point of time.--( Laughter, tla t ',.o a% High le ur= h ear. ) It was, in point of fact, leaping th e. eed 4 . o as ens necessary, with a view of getting over la4 , eee t i e ;:( A 1 lug+. ) He repeated it was not consistent with ef the Right Hon. Baronet or the Noble of th e le • r sltt:happeare e l to him that the proposition emanated from ,ei of pelicy. It emanated from a school for same rib 4 Ar. tra ' ) ers Of which he entertained great respect, and at -e teon. 1), e. rutte , the greatest ability. He felt that it came th e figh t l , - ; Younger leader than either the Noble Duke or (Il i r eete r i s l 4 u. Baronet, and whose forte was not quite so fors, heave, of an absence of indiscretion or temerity.— ee lt .1184 he , and a laugh.) If this proposed alt?ration, there 11 :41. the Pl,ll suggested to Noble Lords opposite, he would inei ea utie °b_ Duke not to be led away too far from his ti ea a l _ tie polley.___( tit a nc. thele TT , Hear, hear, and laughter.) He . ad_ , —got be such differences between the situa ilPeo,, rte of the same country that very different courses Fie gilt he 'Accessary. He admitted that there was a le etli 4e at in the two countries. l aw s ett 41131 .ce of civilisation . • kt je:t there was a difference as to the spirit of corn -44'1 -- ' ev4t arit ek in the two countries. He admitted also that there was a great difference as to the disproportion between the members of the Established Church and other creeds, which were regarded, he knew, with something like I alarm. There were also some points of difference astegarded the law and institutions of the two parts of the empire. For instance, there was generally a fixed officer to take the chair at the quarter sessions, who had certain duties to perform, which were not known in this country. Again, the police force was different, and there were certain laws which in times of com motion and excitement gave greater power to the Government ' of Ireland, and which did not exist in England. Although those might, in some respects, be called great differences, yet he begged Noble Lords to recollect that there were also points of resemblance. He would beg them to recollect that the two countries were under the same constitution—they were under the same Parliament—they were under the, same po pular control—they were under the same legal mode of procedure—they were under the same system of trial by jury, and they were under the same unlimited freedom of the press.—( Hear, hear.) He begged, therefore, their Lord.. ships to recollect that the , points of resemblance were now much greater than the points of difference relied on in this case. And he also begged their Lordships to consider whe ther with such points of resemblance they could continue to govern Ireland peaceably, having the feelings of the majority of the people against them. He had said that he would not say anything to excite feelings of animosity between the two parties, or to create feelings of irritation in the minds of any of their Lordships. He was sure, however, that Noble Lords would admit that the feelings of the people of that country could got be left out of consideration ; and that it ought se riously to be considered before anything was done that would shock or alienate them, but that they ought to do everything in their power to conciliate them.—( Hear.) He did not intend to go into the general question of local government, or proceed to investigate its disadvantages or advantages. He supposed that it would not be disputed that every civilized community had availed itself of some system of municipal government. He apprehended that it was acted upon more even with ancient nations than with the moderns. Ho be lieved that this country had not availed herself so much of it as other modern nations. He was fully aware that Corpora tions in their present form were not essentially necessary to the growth of powerful communities. They knew that Bris tol, and Leeds, and Liverpool, and Nottingham, had grown up under the administration of local government, but they also knew that Manchester and Birmingham bad swollen into a state of opulence almost comparable with that of the me tropolis, almost entirely without it. The question, however, was, whether, after having established municipal governments in Scotland and England, you are prepared to do without them in Ireland.—( Hear.) It was a question of discretion as to whether or not they should be established in those towns in which they did not now exist, but he thought that it would be a most unwise and indiscreet dealing with the feelings of the country to do them away where they did exist.. He did not intend to go further into this question, as it was not now before the House; but he had thought it necessary to state as calmly as he could some of the general principles which he thought should guide their Lordships in dealing with this subject. The question was, whether or not there should be a broad and material difference between the Municipal Govern ments of England, and Scotland, and Ireland—whether there was such a discrepancy between the states of the two coun tries as to justify so large a departure from all the institutions of former times, and from the whole practice and custom of the country ?—( Hear, hear.) He wished to ask whether the differences which existed were of such a continued and dura ble nature as to have a permanent effect on the situation of the country ? He did not believe that that was the case, and he trusted that they would not lose sight of the effect that the course they intended to adopt with reference to this measure must have on the feelings and understandings of those for whom they were legislating.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The Noble Viscount concluded with moving the second read ing of the Bill. Lord LYNDHURST said before he entered upon the main subject, their Lordships would permit him to advert to an observation which had fallen from the Noble Viscount, which he had repeated several times during the last session, and which he had now again made use of. It was not fair of that Noble Lord to impose upon him the charge of his (Vis count Melbourne's) offspring.—( Laughter.) He had, un doubtedly endeavoured to remedy, as far as he was able, any defects in the Bill of last session, and to a certain extent, he had succeeded; but he atilt thought it unfaira in the Noble Lord to throw upon him the charge of his own offspring. —( A laugh.) In reference now to the subject matter of the debate, he had always understood when any proposition for the reformation of abuses was to be made the plain and clear course to be taken was, to point out the existing evil, and to state the remedy which was proposed to meet it, and the effect which that remedy would produce ; but what he complained of was, that the Noble Viscount had not told them what would be the effect of the proposed measure, and he complained of that because upon the consequences it produced, the utility of the remedy must depend. He (Lord Lyndhurst) did not go to the Report, nor did he know what reliance was to be placed upon that document, but it admitted on all hands that in the Irish Corporations evils to a very great extent did exist ; they were not disguised, but open, acknowledged, undoubted evils. They resolved themselves into exclusion, the administration of justice being placed in the hands of one party only, and the mal-administration of the municipal government, in conse quence of its being placed in the hands of one party. Those were the evils that existed ; that was a summary of the in conveniences attached to the present system of municipal go vernment in Ireland; and he was quite as ready as the Noble Viscount to say that an adequate remedy ought to be provided. The existing evils were not denied by the people of this country ; they were not denied by the Protestants of Ireland ; they were not denied by the members of the Corporations themselves ; and the greater part of those members even wished for a remedy, provided one could be found which would have a fair and just operation, and would not be the means of introducing evils of a similar description.—(Loud cheers.) What was the remedy proposed by the Noble Lord ? He ( Lord Lyndhurst) was sure there was no Noble Lord in that House who, having attentively considered the subject, would not feel that, so far from any improvement being effected by it, the existing evils would only be aggravated. Would the system of exclusion be remedied ? Would the administration of justice be taken out of the hands of one party? Would justice be administered one jot more fairly, more independently of party and political feeling ? Ho would ask the Noble Lord to consider the species. of popular feeling which existed in that country, and then to answer sincerely whether he did not believe that the evils of the present system in that respect would, under the proposed one, be aggravated tenfold ? ( Hear, hear, hear.) What, then, would be the consequences of adopting the Bill now before their Lordships? The Cor porations would not then, it was true, consist of Protestants— it was true they would not consist of Conservatives; but they still would.be exclusive ; they would consist of one party, and that the anti. Church party—those who were daily seeking the dissolution of the empire, and the overthrow of the Pro testant Church—that party which, for want of a better name, he must denominate the Radical party.—(Loud Cheers.) What was the scope, what was the object of this measure ? It was true it would take all municipal power out of the hands of the Protestants, but it would only be to transfer it to the grasp of their opponents, whom he had just described to their Lordships. Would, then, the proposed measure lead to any thing more than to a direct transfer of power ? Their Lord ships had already seen the effect of a similar Bill in England ; they had seen in what manner the municipal elections and ap pointments had been conducted in England. Let not the warning, then, be lost. What had been the object of those who framed, and those who had countenanced, and those upon whom the measure had been imposed? Why, the object of all was power—power, which had been the object of every mea sure of reform that had been introduced into Parliament, from the measure for the amendment of Parliamentary representa tion down to the Bill upon which their Lordships were then deliberating.—( Loud cheers.) In each of those measures the object was the same—to dispossess one party of power, and to give it to their opponents.—( Cheers.) Nor was that fact dis guised by the adherents of the Government, though his Ma jesty's Ministers themselves did not perhaps avow it ; but the case with which it had been accomplished had been far and wide resounded in triumph.—( Hear.) If he wished for an illustration of his assertion that the only obiect of all the Re form measures had been power, he need only advert to the discussions which had latterly taken place, both there and elsewhere, upon the appointment of municipal magistrates under the new English Corporation Bill; and, after a careful and anxious consideration of those discussions, he felt bound to say that he could come to no other conclusion than that those appointments had been made solely upon party and po litical considerations.—(Cheers.) And if, then, they found that even in so sacred and important a duty as the fair and impartial administration of justice the attainment of political power had been the governing object, how could they avoid the conclusion, that in their measures also the object should be only a transfer of power for their own advantage, the suppression of their opponents—to trample down into the dust the Conser vative power of the kingdom, and to transfer it to the Radi cals? If the consequence then in England was such as he bad stated, he would beg of them to consider what was likely to be the effect of a similar system in Ireland ? There was party feeling in England, but it was the mere whisper of a tem perate breeze when compared with the whirlwind of political passion in that country. Their Lordships knew what usually took place, th e scenes which invariably occurred, at the elec tions for Members of Parliament in Ireland; let them, then, only , remember what was the qualification proposed by this Bill, and he would ask if the same intimidation and the same violence would not, beyond all doubt, be exercised at the elec tions and nominations for the new town councils—( Hear, hear) .and if there would not be at those elections also displayed in all its might against the Protestant interest the most for midable engine of political power that was ever wielded in any country, he meant the Roman Catholic Priesthood 2 ( Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) He remembered the time when their influence had been denied, but it was now acknow ledged and boasted, and an engine more mischievous, more terrible, was never let loose upon any country.—( Hear, hear.) But be did not like to descend into particulars of that kind, because he knew that their Lordships had read the evidence with respect to that subject, and he knew what an impression it had made upon the country at large, and what an impression it must make upon all their Lordships. The exertion of that influence had not been confined to the ordinary classes of the priesthood ; but he found also in the Report of the Committee on another subject, and of the Carlow Committee, evidence of a Bishop of the Roman Catholic Church having issued circulars to every priest in his diocese, directing them to exert themselves to the utmost in favour of particular candidates. In the county of Hereford, with which a Noble Marquis oppo site was connected, with the exception of the pastors of three Chapels, the Roman Catholic priests had uniformly denounced every one under their direction who did not vote in favour of the candidates they supported, as enemies to their religion and their God. Again there was the evidence of a p erson who had given hi s testimony before a Cortunitteo of the House of Corn.. mons as to the manner in which he had addressed his congrega tion. The extract was to the following effect, and contained the words of a Roman Catholic priest to his flock :—" All who vote at the election who are Romdn Catholics, shall vote .for Wallace and Fairrie. We will make our stand at the hustings in our capacity as priests, and we shall know the man that dares to vote against us, and shall watch the recreant till he goes to his grave.—(Cheers.) Yes, upon the Catholic slave we will set a mark who will vote against God and his coun try." In that spirit had every election in Ireland for the last three years proceeded ; and was it not sure that the same principle would pervade the popular and annual municipal elections ? Their Lordships knew the fearful effects of a Roman Catholic denunciation; they knew that the party against whom it proceeded was excluded from all communion ; that no one could live under its influence ; that he must fly the country or die. Never, surely, was there an engine of more power in any town or country. What, then, must be the inevitable consequence of the present Bill? Why, that the Corporations would consist exclusively of one class of persons. Again, what course was likely to be pursued with respect to the magistrates? Who were likely to be recom mended to the Crown as fit persons for the office of magis trates ? Who but those that entertained political views of the same description as the Town Council, and what could their Lordships expect after what they had seen respecting th e appointment of magistrates in England—what could they expect but to find the administration of justice again in the hands of a party, and the whole municipal Government of the country in the hands of a party—a party more in flamed, more bigoted, more violent ? After the most calm and anxious consideration_ he was completely satisfied _ . that if the object were to get rid of a system by which the administration of justice was exclusively vested in one party, FO far from getting rid of it the present measure would only in crease and inflame the evil. He might appeal, in confirmation of his opinion, to the evidence of a person-_a witness upon such a subject free from all doubt—the evidence of that great di rector of the Movement party—the director and controller of . _ his Majesty's Government in Ireland—( A laugh and cheers) —that powerful one, upon whose word depended whether they stood or fell—what did hb say ? His words were upon the subject of the English Corporations. " They had got an in stalment—a great and glorious instalment—which would establish in every borough in England schools and societies of political agitation." He (Lord Lyndhurst) might appeal, therefore, to his (Mr. O'Connell's) evidence in support of his position as indubitable. Having made those observations in reference to the appointment of magistrates he would now come a little more to particulars. The Noble Lord had stated in what respects the English and Irish Bills corre sponded—in what also they differed. The first point to which he had drawn attention was in reference to the qualifi cation ; and there was a difference in that respect, said the Noble Viscount, because no such a thing as rating existed in Ireland. Now it was rather curious that the Noble Lord should have made that statement, when he (Lord Lyndhurst) found in one of the clauses these words : Nor unless such occupier shall have paid or discharged all such grand jury and municipal cesses, rates, and taxes, if any, which shall have become legally due and payable by and been demanded from him in respect of such premises, &c. It was exceedingly curious that the Noble Lord should have made that statement; but the clause continued, " ex cept such as shall have been imposed or become due within three calendar months next before such enrolment." Their Lordships would know, then, according to the qualification, what class of persons would be the electors in the new Irish Corporations. It was proposed by the new measure that all persons holding any tenement of the yearly value of 51. in certain boroughs should be entitled to vote. But there was another departure from the English Bill, not a little singular, though not noticed by the Noble Viscount. That Noble Lord had said there was a difference in respect to those who were to make out the list of burgesses,' because, said he, in Ireland there are no overseers, and that the duty had therefore been given to the churchwardens. There the Noble Lord's explanation ceased. Now he (Lord Lynd hurst) should not have complained if the duty had been en trusted to the churchwardens, but when he looked to the Bill be found that the churchwardens were to fulfil that duty only for the first year; but upon every subsequent year who, did their Lordships think, was the person upon whom the task was to devolve ? Not upon the churchwardens, but upon the town clerk—(Hear, hear)—and who was the town clerk? By what tenure did be hold his office? Why, during the plea sure of the town council. The town clerk 1 Why he must ne cessarily be the creature of the town council.—( Hear.) With the same politics, the same views, in fact perfectly identified ith the town council ; their servant, their slave. To that person, then, the important duty of making out the lists of the burgesses was assigned. Why so? The persons who framed the measure must have had the English Bill before them; the the difference between the two Bills must have attracted their attention, the alteration must have been made by design, and the object must have been to avoid putting the power in the hands of so free and independent a body as that to which in the English Bill it had been entrusted. —(Cheers.) So much then for the similarity between the two Bills in particular. He would now refer to the third point of difference, and to which the Noble Viscount had but very slightly alluded. By the English Bill their Lordships very carefully provided for the division of the boroughs into wards, and were peculiarly anxious in maintaining that no election should take place previous to such division into wards. Their Lordships succeeded in carrying their point, notwithstanding the opposition of the Noble Viscount. The Noble Viscount had that evening passed over that part of the subject with some general observations, the scope of which he could not quite understand, and their Lordships would doubtless be astonished to learn that there appeared the following clause in the present Bill :—" Be it enacted, that every borough in the said sche dules ( A and B) shall be divided into the number of wards mentioned in such schedule, in conjunction with the name of such borough, provided that Parliament, by an Act to be passed in the present session, shall direct in what manner such division shall be made," &c. According to that provision, then, if those who directed the movement in the other House—(Loud cheers)—those who directed his Majesty's Government should choose to oppose the division into wards, a* the Bill stood at present, it would be impossible for any division to be made, and the whole matter must be left in the management of a few men. Those, then, were a few samples of the differences which existed between the two Bills ; and those who framed the mea sure having the English Bills before them, evidently with one only aim, the increase of their power, made such departures from the English measure. With respect to some other points of the Bill, alterations from the Bill, as it originally stood, lied been made ; a provision by which the town council had absolute power over harbour dues and similar charges was objected to and conceded with little opposition. Again, in respect to the sheriffs, it had been objected to allowing their nomination to be vested in the Crown, because there were duties—as the summoning of juries—in the performance of which it would be highly inexpedient that they should be influenced by party motives : that point had been abandoned ; and it was admitted dangerous, in that respect, to apply to Ireland the same principles which had previously been applied to the corporations of England. With respect to another point : by the English corporations the management of the whole police force was entrusted to the corporation ; and so originally it stood in the Irish Bill ; but the impropriety of that enactment was proved, and its absurdity also was quickly pointed out ; for, whilst another Bill was going through the other House, by which the whole police force would be entirely removed, it was the height of absurdity to establish in particu lar towns a separate police force ; that provision was accor dingly abandoned, and with the abandonment it was said that the Constabulary Bill was one ground for that abandonment. They had not, however, made the concession with a good grace, for they left a little fragment—the watch.—(Laughter.) But those watchmen —they all knew what a watchman was— ( Laughter)—had no confined jurisdiction, their limits were not within one town or county; their jurisdiction extended over all the towns through twelve counties, from Charleville to Limerick. The obse rvations he had made upon this measure were not applicable solely to his Majesty's Ministers, but to all who had any share in the preparation of the measure, and bringing it into that shape and form in which it appeared be fore their Lordships. The inference he drew was this, that the principal, if not the only, thing sought for, by the establish ment of these councils was the erection of schools of agitation for the purpose of increasing the power of those who proposed them, of forwarding their views ; and, finally, of effectin g the separation of the two countries. The Corporations were, by Ow provisions of the Bill completely deprived of power. They had nothing to do do with the administration of criminal jus tice in the Courts. The Judges were to be appointed by the Crown, the Corporations having no right at all to interfere in the matter. Again, with respect to the administration of civil justice, the Corporation had nothing to do with it. The Judges in the civil Courts were to be appointed by the Crown, the Corporations being shut out from the exercise of any discresion, or even opinion in the matter. They also had nothing to do with the police—with its appointment or control. All this was vested in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant ab solutely, the Corporations having no control whatever. In like manner, as regarded the sheriffs, the Corporations had nothing to do with the appointment of these important officers, and no sort of control over them in the discharge of their duties. With respect to charitable trusts, here, too, they were divested of all control. All Church pa tronage was taken away from them. They were left no power in such minters. They were to have nothing to do with the management, the repair, or superintendence of the har bours on the coast ; nothing to do with chambers of corn ' Inerce, and other local matters of great importance in these corporations. There was an Act of Parliament, the 9th of George the IV. to which he wished to call th e i r L or dships' attention. In IV., the watching, cleansing, lighting, and paving of towns was not managed upon the same principle or in the same manner as it was here. The 9th of George IV. provided for the manner in which these duties were to be exe cuted in the towns and cities of Ireland. The new corpora tions, therefore, as proposed by this Bill, were unnecessary, as regarded these objects. What, then, could be the object of appointing them? What purpose could it answer? It could be for no purpose but the establishment of legal assemblies for the purpo ses o f po li t i ca l di scuss io n and loca agitation. He would now endeavour briefly to point out the course which, in his opinion, it would be advisable for their Lordships to pursue in this most important subject. He had no motive and no to defend the corporations of Ireland as they now existed. There was, he believed, scarcely one man found in the other House of Parliament to stand up and defend the present sys tem of corporations in Ireland. All admitted that it was vicious, th:t it needed amendment, that it could not be suffered any huger to exist. The only question upon which difference of opinion existed was, as to the nature of the remedy to be applied.—(Hear.) In their address to the Crown, in an swer to the Speech from the Throne at the opening of the present session of Parliament, their Lordships said that they 1 were ready to apply a remedy to the abuses complained of in the existing state of the corporations of Ireland. This pledge they gave, and the time was nosy come for redeeming it, by T.H. SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, APRIL 19, 1836 providing what might appear to their Lordships to be a pro per and an adequate remedy. Such being the case—having given this pledge—he for one felt that he could not, consist ently with his sense of public duty, oppose the second reading of this Bill. In votimg .for this motion he knew he should differ from many Noble friends of his for whom he enter tained the greatest respect, men of great constitutional know edge, of great experience, of great good sense, arid of the hiehest integrity. He would now proceed to lay before their Lordships, and to explain shortly, the course he would propose as a substitute for this Bill. He must premise by saying that if there was no alternative between the adoption of this Bill and the continuance of the corporations in their present state, he would not hesitate (so we understood) as to the adoption of the latter. But here, fortunately, he was not driven to such an alternative. What then, was the course he meant to suggest ? Their Lordships must see that this Bill, in the very first clause of it, destroyed, now and for ever, all existing corporations—every vestige of them was cut off. All the laws, provisions, immunities, duties, and powers connected with these corporations were put an end to. This clause completely did away with every corpora tion charter, with every fragment of such charter in Ireland. The question then naturally occurred, what was to be substi tuted ? He would now shortly state what his plan was ; and he pledged himself, if such should be the wish of their Lord ships, to prepare it and lay it before them in the course of the present session. In the first place, then, his plan, proceeding on the same principle on which they had hitherto proceeded in corporate reform, would preserve the rights of freemen.-- ( Hear, hear.) It would preserve all pecuniary rights. It would provide for the due administration of justice both in the criminal and the civil courts. It provided for the appointment of sheriffs, for the administration of chartered trusts, and the performance of all other duties incident to corporations, for the superintendence of harbours, for chambers of commerce. These matters would be managed with the same attention to the interest involved as they were at present, and in the same manner. With respect to the police of the corporations —to cleansing, paving, lighting, and watching—they would be provided for, as they were now, either by local Act s or by the 9th f George the Fourth. The matters which he had just enumerated were by this Bill entirely re moved from the control of the corporations. One thing only remained to be considered--the funds of the corpo rations. The question naturally presented itself, what was to be done with them ? By the Bill now proposed they were entirely annihilated. The Noble Viscount (Melbourne) laid down the principle that the property, the funds of Corpo rations, were vested in them for public purposes, for the be nefit of the inhabitants generally. Be it so. He would not enter into that question now. Let them be considered trustees for charitable purposes, and trustees for the general benefit of the inhabitants. By his plan both objects were provided for. It provided for the administration of the funds for charitable purposes, as well as for the other objects contemplated by the Bill, but in a different way. Now, what would it signify by whom the trusts were administered, provided they were admi nistered honestly, economically, and beneficially for the pub lic ? What more would be necessary for this purpose than to to appoint a Commission, to be chosen by the Crown ? What was the amount of the funds they would have to administer ? Upon this point very exaggerated accounts had gone abroad. In mint of fact, the whole funds of the Irish Corporations, with the exception of Dublin, did not exceed 33,0001. It was proposed by the Bill brought in by the Noble Viscount, the second reading of which they were now discussing, to put an end to all tolls vested in Corporations. When this was done, their Lordships must see that it would have the effect of re ducing very considerably this amount of 33,000/. It would lie still further reduced by the purchase of all tolls vested in private persons.—( Hear.) When these objects were ef fected—and he admitted that it was most desirable to put an end to the system of tolls—the amount of funds remaining to be administered would be very small indeed. He called upon their Lordships to consider dispassionately the plan he now ventured to suggest to them. Every object contemplated by this Bill would be secured by it as effectually as it could by preserving the mere name of Corporations, while all the power was taken away. Besides thus securing what was really useful, he got rid entirely of the dangerous, the intolerable nuisance of those schools of agitation, excitement, and local annoyance, which could not fail to produce the worst consequences. Would it be wise to establish a system of annual elections for corporate officers in a country circumstanced as Ireland was ? He entreated of their Lordships not to countenance a measure which must be productive of such evils, and ultimately of far more serious evils, and to adopt in preference to this Bill some such plan as he now suggested to them. The Noble Viscount ( Melbourne) could not feel any very decided hostility to it, for he himself was, in a great measure, the original .author of it. It was first suggested by him. In candour to the Govern ment he must admit that never was there a more important question than that before their Lordships, and never a crisis of more difficulty and danger than the present. Whatever course they might adopt would be encompassed with dangers ; but, thinking the course he suugested to be, of the two, the less dangero us , he ventured to propose it to their Lordships. Why should th e Noble Viscount and those who acted with him be hostile to the plan he suggested ? Did they not see that by passing this Bill they would add greatly to the power of the Radical party in Ireland, and that the power thus acquired would be ultimately directed to their overthrow, and to the separation of the two countries? It was to rescue them from such frightful calamities that he then addressed their Lordships.—( Cheers. ) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE before going into any de tails, would notice one point upon which the Noble and Learned Lord animadverted—that was the division into wards fur which he said no provision was made in the Bill. The Noble and Learned Lord might be assured that Ministers had no intention to entrap their Lordships, because, in point of fact; preparations had been made to draw up a separate Bill upon this subject of wards, which was meant to accompany this, Bill. It was only in consequence of unavoidable delay, arising front the nature of the inquiries to be made, that the Dill was not then before their Lordships. He should not trouble their Lordships further with particular clauses. All minute circumstances were entirely lost in the importance of the principle laid down by the Noble and Learned Lord, which, however, disguised by his eloquence and the ingenious artifice with which he touched upon it, amounted to this— that the great principle of Municipal Government recognised in England, and recognised in Ireland also, under the Plan taeenets, the Tudors, and the Stuarts, was inapplicable to Ireland, and that she ought now to be stripped of it.—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) The Noble and Learned Lord, with a kind of ingenuity unworthy of his great talents, said that by the very first clause of this Bill Irish Corporations were completely destroyed, and that they had nothing more now to do than follow this up by adopting the plan of the Noble and Learned Lord. Did the Noble and Learned Lord think that the shameful, the abominable abuses detailed in the Irish Corporation Report were within the scope of the original charters ? Did he think this Bill was anything more, in point of fact, than a revival of these charters ?—( Loud cheering.) In place of revival his system was destruction, and destruction for ever. He would challenge the Noble aed Learned Lord to point out any one charter of an Irish Corporation in which the principle was exclusion. Did any one of the forty Irish charters contain that principle ? It crept in by abuse of the charters. They proposed to remove the abuse. He knew it lied been said that the great object of these charters was to exclude a certain class of his Majesty's subjects from the benefit of Corporations. In the early part of his speech the Noble and Learned Lord found fault with his Noble Friend ( Viscount Melbourne) for not more distinctly particularising the existing evils, and the nature of the remedies he meant to propose. The causes of the evils were sufficiently clear : they were exclusiveness, irresponsibility, and self-election.— ( Cheers.) They proposed to remedy these. Lord L YND HURST explained. He insinuated no charge against the Noble Viscount. His argument was that the Noble Viscount, after pointing out the evils of the present system did not show how they could be remedied or removed by the provisions of this Bill. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—Had not the Noble and Learned Lord interrupted him so unnecessarily he should have come to that point. He was pointing out the monstrous evils of the old system ; and the remedy proposed by the No ble and Learned . Lord was merely to pass from one evil to another—from a self-elected body to a body not elected at all. The Noble and Learned Lord seemed to think that Ministers were always legislating with a view to some particular pur pose, and under the dictation of some particular individual. lie alluded to the alterations made in the clause. Now the Noble and Learned Lord himself was the source of some of those alterations. The Noble and Learned Lord complained that his Noble Friend (Viscount Melbourne) did not point out sufficiently in detail what were the advantages of this Bill. The Noble and Learned Lord himself was equally abstinent in pointing out what were its disadvantages. The only evil upon which the Noble and Learned Lord had expatiated, was, that it would give birth to schools of agitation. His speech, for the greater part, was employed upon this topic, in pointing out the evils of agitation, while the last pert of it was expen ded in showing that the new Corporations would be so com pletely stripped of all power and privilege, that it would not be worth while to keep them in existence. Now he conten ded that the powers which the Corporations would still retain under this Bill were highly important. With respect to the administration of justice, it was true the appointment of the Judges wa s vested in the Crown, where it ought to be ; but that which related to the daily habits of the people, and in which they were, personally and locally, most interested, was left to their own administration. The Councils would have the administration of local funds, and the right to judge of local interests, and to decide upon them. In bodies so constituted he, far from expecting nothing but political agita tion, saw the most effectual means of preventing it by drawing attention to other and individually interesting subjects. He supposed the Noble and Learned Lord had read a book recently published by M. Tocqueville, for there were few interested in such subjects who had not read it. This gentleman was of an aristocratic family, and went over to-America with some aristo cratic prejudices. He returned with some fears of democracy, :led that it would ultimately prove destructive of the existing order of thing s in the United States. He found, however, a compensation and a corrective of the democratic principle, in the existence of municipal instituti on s. H e s ays that the system of municipal bodies operates as a corrective of the evils of the democratic tendency, by giving healthy e mployment to every active mind, by drawing their attention to local; interests and improvements, by the feelings of interest and importance which naturally aeise w h en persons are selected to fill corporate of fices, by the necessity of preserving peace and tranquillity, and discountenancing agitation for the purpose of effecting the objects of local importance they may propose to themselves. It was the decided opinion of this intelligent writer that, in this way, municipal institutions would lessen, and ultimately entirely prevent, the evils he apprehended from the demo cratic principle. He was quite astonished at the use that sans made of Mr. O'Connell. Noble Lords opposite confessed that they were indebted to Mr. O'Connell for all their argu ments. They scented to think that a measure was either good or bad as it was supported by Mr. O'Connell. He wished them joy of the new principle of legislation they had intro duced into that House.—(Hear and laughter.) The Noble and Learned Lord, with all his ingenuity, his experience, and fertility of genius, was driven to Mr. O'Connell for argu ments to prove that this Bill would give existence to schools of agitation.—(Hear, hear.) He did not know whether Mr. O'Connell used such expressions or not. But suppose the Noble and Learned Lord's plan to be adapted, and these agi tation schools prevented, did the Noble and Learned Lord sup pose that agitation would be put an end to in Ireland? In look ing for the arcadian repose which the Noble Lord desired so much he seemed to have forgotten that the same persons who would compose the councils under the present Bill would still continue in existence under the plan of the Noble and Learned Lord, that they were living in a free country, where it would still be in their power to hold public meetings, to debate and discuss political subjects, to agitate legally as much as they pleased. Did the Noble and Learned Lord suppose that when they saw their just claims refused by that House, when they were declared unworthy of municipal privileges, unfit to ma nage their own affairs, their corporate funds and trusts placed at the disposal of a commission named by the Crown—when they saw this, did the Noble Lord suppose there would be no agitation ?—( Cheers.) Far from thinking that the removal of corporate abuses would produce agitation, he felt confident that the existence of these grass abuses in corporations had produced schools of agitation. It was from the foul and tainted. atmosphere of these long-closed corporations that a great part of the disease of discord and agitation originally arose.—( Hear, hear.) By removing the source of the disease, he trusted that agitation would gradually disappear, and be re placed by tranquillity, prosperity, industry, and wealth. They had already given to the Roman Catholics of Ireland the right of representing and of being represented ; and was it to be said that they ware to be now excluded from the more natural ri g ht of taking a part in the administration of their own local affairs ? To refuse them this would be to act in opposition to all the declared policy of Parliament, and would he to destroy that parity which it was the object of Parliament to establish. " Paribus se legibus Arnim Invictm gentes eaterna in feeders mittant." Was this, then, the sort of parity which the Noble Lords op posite would wish to establish ?' If so, let them agree to the present measure. Sh ou ld th at measure f a i l of producing the effects which its promoters hoped for, then would be the time to take the bold, and, he would add, hazardous, step of extin guishing the Irish Corporations altogether. On these grounds he hoped their Lordships would agree to the Bill. The Earl of MANSFIELD said, that although he could not, by voting for the second reading of the Bill, give even his temporary sanction to the principle contained in it, it was not his intention to propose that the second reading should be post poned to any more distant day. It was at all times with great reluctance that he addressed himself to their Lordships' atten tion, and it was particularly so on the present occasion, when he not only differed from his Majesty's Ministers, but from many of his Noble friends, and consequently from a very large majority of their Lordships' House. He objected to the prin ciple of the present Bill because it was the same dan gerous principle that pervaded every measure that had emanated from the members of the present Cabinet, and from every other Cabinet that had conducted the Government of the country since 1830. That mischievous principle was the assuming without proof that abuses and evils existed, and assuming also that their remedies were the best--the only re medies for the correction of those abuses, and proceeding to apply those remedies without the slightest regard to chartered or any other rights that might be affected by them. It was not, he believed, fifty years ago that an Attorney-General described a charter as a piece of parchment with a seal banging at the corner of it ; but he believed that description of a charter, and the rights it conveyed, did not at the time fail to prove rather prejudicial than otherwise to the Government with which that law officer was connected. He could not, however, say how such a description would be received at the present time. Not withstanding the improvements made in the English Municipal Bill of last year—notwithstanding that evidence had been heard at their Lordships' bar in vindication of those rights which were intended to be destroyed, and of the characters of men that had been unjustly aspersed—evidence, indeed, which it would have been most unfair and unjust to have refused— notwithstanding this, their Lordships had not always paid re spect to chartered rights. He should first beg to remind his Noble Friends near him, that they as strongly deplored the passing of the Reform Bill as he did. Yet now they were dis posed to follow the example set them by the Bill. Their Lord ships had no right, he contended, to destroy those rights which had been secured by charter without appealing to those whose interests were most involved. His Noble Friends had ad mitted the principle of the present Bill to be the destruction of the corporations, but they said it was better to destroy them at once according to their own plan. Now he did not hesitate to declare that their Lordships were not in a condition to destroy those chartered bodies, either after the one plan or theother, without better evidence than they had at present. lie did not moan to assert or insinuate any doubt as to the legality of the commission issued to inquire into the Irish corporations, and neither did he throw out any suspicion of bias or undue partia lity on the part of the Commissioners who acted under it, although he could not equally acquit ; of partiality the English Commissioners of last year. But although he neither impugned the commission nor the commissioners, he did contend that a great and extensive change, such as was contemplated by the present Bill, should not be made upon the bare report of those commissioners. That report stated that in the greater number of the corporations in Ireland, there had prevailed a system of malversation and corruption ; but there was no evi dence before their Lordships of the truth of these severe accu sations, nor had there been any opportunity given to the ac cused party of refuting the charge. Surely their Lordships ought not to legislate on a question of such importance without better evidence than this bare, unsupported report. A question had been raised as to whether or not corporation property was trust property. For his own part he had never viewed it in any other light than trust property; but lie be lieved that all past experience would prove that trust property and individual property were not so widely different in charac ter but that the means and necessity of securing one were also applicable to the other. He would remind their Lordships of what had been said by a Noble and Learned Friend of his, whose absence from that House on account of illness he la- wilted deeply—(the ERR of Eldon)--one of the greatest law authorities that had ever lived in this . or in any other country. That Noble and Learned Lord bad stated that it would be impossible to say how much individual property there was in the country that rested on a surer foundation than Corporation property. The present Bill appeared to him to be a different Bill altogether from the Bill that was brought in for the same purpose in the last Session. In the preamble of the Bill of last year it was stated that in the lapse of time the Corpora tions in Ireland had become inefficient for the purposes for which they were originally designed ; but the present Bill did not assign even this reason, but merely alleged expediency as the ground of the Bill. For his own part, in these times of doubtful protection for vested rights, he was rather disposed for a system of tardy rather than precipitate legislation. He had thus stated to their Lordships these few prelimi nary objections in the first instance. But he entertained other objections still more forcible. The principal of these was the vast increase of power which this Bill was calculated to throw into the hands of the Roman Catholics in Ireland.— ( Cheers.) That this was one of the objects of the Bill was not denied, nay, it was even admitted and defended.— ( Cheers.) Now he did not so much find fault with the Bill for giving this increased power to the Roman Catholics, but that it gave power to that portion of the Roman Catholics who ought the least to be trusted with power.—(Cheers.) It was not to the Roman Catholics of education, or of pro perty, or who were obedient to the laws, that the Bill went to give power, but' to the lawless and the uneducated class of persons belonging to that religion, who were under a slavish submission to their Priests, the busy agitators and interferers in every species of elections, and also the slaves of lay agitators, who availed themselves of religious prejudices to excite the national antipathy of the ignorant classes to British connection.—( Cheers.) It had been stated that the Catholic Relief Bill of 1829 was designed to place Catholics and Protestants on a perfect equality. He admitted that it was so far as civil rights went, but that Bill made no provision for the admission of Roman Catholics to Corporations. He believed that Roman Catholics were entitled to admission into Corporations by the Act of 1793. That is, the Corporations had a discretionary power given to them to admit Roman Catholics ; but we - re . their Lordships now to say that, because that discretion had not been soused, a maroiling force was to' be used, and the dis- cretion taken away altogether? What effect was the present Bill calculated to have upon Protestants? Why, to exclude them from Corp Orations.— (Cheers.) In any difference of opinion that he had entertained with reference to these sub jects from the Noble Lord near him (the Duke of Wellington) he was certain that he had never imputed to that Noble Duke any disregard of the Protestant Church, or any wish to see Catholic ascendancy established in its stead.—( Cheers.) Nei ther had he ever imputed any wish of the kind to the Noble Lords opposite at the time that the Catholic Emancipation Bill passed; because at that time those Noble 'Lords had not detached themselves from the interests of the Established Church.—( Cheers.) They had not at that time joined in the denunciation of Tithes, nor in the mutilation of all Church property to gratify their adversaries.—(Cheers.) They had not then sanctioned the condemnation of tithes as an en sanguined treasure and an intolerable impost, They had not thr 14 brought in a Bill to withdraw their legal support from the Protestant Clergy, and leave that Clergy exposed to pe nury and insult.—( Cheers. ) They had not then entered into a league of implicit confidence with the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin--(lmmense cheering)—whose hatred to the Established Church had been repeatedly and openly a vowed—(Cheers)l.--who had publicly avowed his de termination to dissolve the Union, unless Parliament passed the present and other measures which he dictated. He (Earl Mansfield) did not want to withhold equal rights from the Ro man Catholics, but here the Roman Catholics were claiming an ascendancy that was not claimed by the Protestants. This was a measure calculated to oppress the Protestants in Ireland, who had always been the steady supporters of British connec tion. He confessed he could not understand the principle upon which the framers of the present Bill had proceeded. It had been said that it was a return to the ancient usage, but he should like to know when it was any part of the ancient usage in Corporations to have the town councils elected by the house holders of the town? The Bill might be possibly an improve ment, but it certainly was not a renovation. He could not un derstand either why it was that only 51 out of 75 borouas Ireland were introduced into this Bill, and of those intrcUltioed some were much smaller than some that were excluded, Bel turbet, for instance, - vas to have a sovereign and other corpo rate officers, although the population was only 2,026. The Corporation had no property, bad only an income of four pounds a year, and owed a debt in common with all the Corporations of 1001.—(A laugh.) He did not see any provision in . the Bill for the r emain i ng twenty-four Corporations. Were they to be left, as had been said, to wallow in their abominations? —(A laugh.) Now, as to the plan that had been laid before their Lordships that night by his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst), much as he disapproved of the B i ll of his Majesty's Ministers, he disapproved equally of the plan of his Noble and Learned Friend. It had been held by many that these corporation s were established in Ireland for the protection of the Protestant religion. He could not say that he agreed with those who thought so. His own belief and opinion was, that they were designed to maintain and . oreserve the English connection : and so far, undoubtedly, they went to protect the Protestant religion, as one was iden tified with the other. The charter of the corporation of Dublin, for instance, was granted to the King's citizens of :3ristol. The truth was that, properly speaking, Ireland never was conquered; at least the consequences th at h a d followed all other conquests of countries did not foll ow i n Ie themselves the con que conqueringcountry;party, and ether case. There in English settlers, were many of tlers,established hut those settlers and the natives never entered into a proper state of fusion, nor did the conquered adopt the laws or usages of the conquerors. They never came under one denomination or unity of laws or Constitution. It was not upon these, or any other grounds, that he would pro pose to exclude one party or the other from religious mo tives. He might, perhaps, in the judgment of some No ble Lords, be attaching too much importance to the ilidividval of whom he was going to speak, by alluding to anything he might have said. The Hon. and Learned Mem ber for Dublin was reported to have said—(he did not know that he had said so)—that the Union would be no better than a cobweb if this Bill was not passed. He was reported to have held this language both in Ireland and in England, and ii not contradicted it might have an u n fa voura ble e ffect upon the minds of persons who were easily misled. It could be no disparagement to their Lordships to satisfy every portion and description of their countrymen that their acts and proceed ings were dictated by impartiality and justice. He wished sincerely to support every measure which he thought would conduce to the happiness of Ireland. He wished to have her connection with England marked by equal laws and equal rights to all classes, without regard to religious differences ; but he would never sanction an ascendancy to the Catholics ; and in making any change he would adhere to vested rights. Ile could not consent, therefore, to vote for the second reading of this Bill, nor did he think that it could be in any future stage so far amended as to induce him to give his vote for its passing in any shape.—(Cheers.) Lord FALMOUTH characterized the present Bill as cal culated for the abolition of the most valuable part of the Con stitution—a Bill for the abolition of all existing Corporate rights. He could not reconcile himself to such a Bill. It was concocted on a principle which rendered its production a matter that might be claimed by many fathers, and he thought his Noble and Learned Friend, amongst others, deserved the tide of its foster-father. He rejoiced that he was not a party to the Bill of Reform, and that he had not supported the Cor poration Robbery Bill of last ybar, and it would always afford him a feeling of consolation that he had stood opposed to the present encroachment on the Constitution, He, therefore, was decidedly opposed to the second reading of this Bill. Tim Earl of RIPON entered into a review of the conduct of the Noble Viscount and the other Noble Lords who sup ported him. The Noble Viscount had certainly said, sneer ingly, that the real originator of the amendment had pur sued his opposition in a style not very consistent with his usual caution.—( Hear.) He could not well believe that he pointed at his Noble and Learned Friend, or at the Noble , Duke ; but his language evidently meant to convey the notion that some rash person was interfering with his measures, re gardless of the interests of the country. He was not aware of any cause the Noble Viscount had for such an assertion against his Noble Friend. He could not recollect that when they had acted together his Noble Friend had subjected him &At* to any charge of singular indiscretion, and he believed he was not far from the truth in asserting that the only cause of separation was that his Noble Friend could not acquiesce in the measures of violence and indiscretion to which the Noble Viscount then began to lead himself. He (the Earl of Ripon) should, on the present occasion, pursue a path still more sepa rate from the Noble Viscount, as the mischief he was about to perpetrate in the name of his Majesty's Government was calculated to entail ten times greater mischief on Ireland, un der the most mistaken plea of "justice to Ireland," which re quired a similarity of laws. But how could any man in his senses suppose that the balance of similarity lay in favour of Ireland in the present state of the two countries without being a visionary ? A difference pervaded almost every branch of their affairs, even under the existing Government—a difference in the powers of the Executive, in the administration of jus tice, the management of finances, commerce, and internal re sources, in the nature and exercise of the elective franchise, in the system of defence—of education—of religion and provi sion for the poor.—(Hear.) These were the things that con stituted the marked and essential difference between the con dition of the two countries, and who could say with truth that they were prepared for a similarity of the municipal arrange ments?—( Hear.) The real question before them now was, whether the Bill or the amendment were the better adapted to secure the happiness of Ireland in its present state? If (as he sincerely believed) the latter was calculated to effect the greater benefit, then " justice to Ireland" required that they should adopt it. Through its means he hoped to be able to give his hearty concurrence to a Bill which no doubt would remove many of the evils of Ireland. The Marquis of CL ANRICARDE argued that, without the arrangements of the present Bill, justice could not be done to Ireland in the matters of election of sheriffs and in the exercise of the franchise. The broad principle of self-govern meat was the basis of the Bill, and should be applied to Ireland in ( very applicable case. The Earl of WIN CH IL SE A declared that if this Bill was carried it would eventually be the means of repealing the Union. He would not stop to inquire if the Noble Viscount was the sole father of the present Bill, or if it was the joint production of the Noble Viscount and of Irish priests and agi.ators; but would at once appeal to the House, and ask if tlity would consent to pass the 13111 in its present shape, and thereby give ample power into the bands of Mr. O'Connell and his friends of the Priesthood for the destruction of the Union ? When the plan of Catholic conciliation in 1829 was brought forward, be had in vain attempted to convince their Lordships that they would thereby put an end to the Protes tant Corpdrations in Ireland, and now they saw the result. These Corporations had been established by James 1., to maintain Protestant ascendancy in Ireland; but by the Bill of 1829 their purposes had ceased, and their functions might, therefore, in consistency cease also. With the exception of the Municipal Corporation of Ayr, and a place in the north of England, not a single Corporation had sent a petition to pray for a prolongation of their existence. He had therefore a right to assume that in doing away with these Corporations they were not acting in hostility to public feeling. The real mover in the matter was the agitator, who wished to transfer all power in Ireland, to grasp it himself. Yet their Lord ships were told in 1829 that if these insatiable agitators were admitted within the Constitution, and not excluded from all political power, they would thenceforth be satisfied and quiescent. Viscount MELBOURNE—Not by me. The Earl of WINCHIL SEA, in continuation, declared thst Ireland was now in a worse condition than at any time within the last ten years—with crimes increasing, opposition to the law, and disorganisation in every quarter, making frightful progress. He concluded by giving his best support to the amendment. Lord RODEN declared that if he were not assured that a material alteration would take place in this Bill in Committee he would not consent to support the amendment, for it would produce the greatest evils in Ireland, and increase the mis c•hievous energy of agitation which already prevailed to a me lancholy degree, leading to additional and systematic measures of tyranny and persecution, already widely prevalent. The LORD C HANCE LL OR then put the question, which wa; carried without a division. Lord LYNDHURST then gave notice that he would ap po'nt an early day, when either he, or some other Noble Lord On his side of the House, would move the requisite instructions to the Committee. Lord MELBOURNE requested that he would name an ear:y day. [ We understood that it was subsequently arranged across the talAe that Tuesday se'nnight should stand as the day.l Their Lordship's then adjourned at Half-past Ten. HOLLAND. SECOND CHAMBER of the STATES-GENERAL. THE HAGUE, APRIL 13. —The Chamber in its sitting to day renewed the report of the Central Section on the pro ject of law relative to the coin, the discussion of which was fixed for Saturday next. _ _ The order of the day was the debate on the four projects of law relative to the finances:— A. hi the creation of a debt charged on the colonies. 13. In providing for the full payment of interest of the na tional debt for 1836. C. In modifying the first division of the budget for 1837. I). In fixing the means of providing for the expenses of the firs division of the budget of 1837, and Succeeding years. After some debate the following was the result : A. Adopted by a majority of 2 : 8 to G. B. Adopted by a majority of 40 to 12. C. Rejected by a majority o f 48 to 4. I). Falls to the ground inconsequence of the rejection of D. Some persons affirm tl diat his Royal Highness the Prince of Orange will go in e_ge course of this month to London, and will pass some time 'chore. We learn thatanf stopti on E th i e n r g e a t n il d l s Q a u t e u e r n da w y , .ill go to Amsterdam I`7ews from Canton of the 1 9 th of December -having been recciri.4 in Holland, in which no mention is made of the de struction of the city of Pekin by an earthquake, the report which was b roug h t f rom V a l para i so i n Chili to Nei,v York, ana thence to Europe, is most probably false. i ' ',- )d,B:trt., only tijN , l°uiEp n i\if atßlAGE.—Admiral Sir John Be res' / Jr other of Viscount Beresford, is about to inuty Mrs. Peach, relict of J. Peach, Esq., a lady of consi detr*Jle property., Sir John Beresford was tirst married to Miss Muiley, who , ' A ied in 1813 ; and secondly, in 1815, to Mis s Pie' se (gra'. ll 3-daughter of - Lord 'Monson), who died in 1825. He has, ch',ldren surviving by both marriages. S'T.,l„p DUTY - ON jgEWSPAPEas. —.... A Pwhen public GA .of tb cti , ,,g on this subje ct was held at Bath, o l !' Tuesday,the total v,e;:ri , .us resolutions and a p etition, p ra y in g fo , i, , s :a e s r o h n e d i o d p toe: Saturd a y 2d i nst. a Lis -11 . A ine keard, for the purpose of petitioning Parliament against the e e 6 da n t g y, Tithe Co . .nroutation Bill. ..). s i o i , , alleged beearosree Dr. ' Gi G bi.P'niu av a ree% ' of Mayfield Hall, ne Br . , 4s as (Tone into on Satur -6), Mnrcl , :stield, which r esu l te d in they committal for trial! of an inclivi• Anal, who has for years deservedly occupied a resin ct ahle pin society at tu i 1, statica tewn.