The Sun. — London, England, 1821-05-19 00:00:00

- of the rules under which they acted., they had made no return. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the Commissioners were eery respectable men, -who had no doubt ated on a sense of duty. Sir J. NEWPORT said it did not follow they mint not have very erroneous notions of the mode of carrying the wishes of Parliament into effect. . . BARINGsaid it was evident, from the fact that only 1 . 50,0001; had been issued out of EOO,OOO/. that the Cornmis:4oners were . authoriied to I!,3ue, that the rules under which they acted That have been very strict. It was tit now, how ever, that the pressure of distr . ess had ceased, the power of the Commissioners to advance :-.le,rey should be put an end to, if it did not ex- hire of itself. Ga ENIELt, said, he had heard the con duct of the Commissioners much complained of, but he had also heard it stated in their defence, that the rules under which they acted were the same as those acted upon by the Commissioners in England. If that were true, he thought"they acted correctly. Mr. S. TheE said he was the itigmber who had moved for the Return of the Rule der which the Commissioners for the issue of Commercial Exchequer Bills in Ireland had acted. The lieturn had been that there were no Rules. Now he had, in common with most Gentlemen connected with Ireland, seen a set of printed rules, which were sent to all applicants' for advances. These rules he wished to haVe had on the Table. He could show from them, that they deprived Ireland of all the benefits which she might - have derived from the liheraiity of Parliament. It was not enough to say that the rules acted upon were the same as those in England; unless the circum stances of the two countries were the same. Ire land was poor in personal property, its wealth was in the land, which was a_security the Com missioners refused. Thu refused even the seen lity of the Government itself, for they would not advance 2,0001. on land, of which the Board of Customs had taken a lease at or 4001. a year. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it vas the uniform rule with the Government never to interfere with the Commissioners. - Mr. S. RICE observed, it was commendable not to interfere in individual cases, but it was the duty of the Government to pay attention to the general rules which were to be acted upon.— 'The vote was agreed to. On a vote of 500,0001. on the advance of the Bank of Ireland, Mr. - BARING wished to know when the Chan 'cellor of the Exchequer would make his general statement of the finances of the year ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he should be glad to answer that question, but it 'depended on the progress of the Supplies. Be fore they were voted, the hlon. Gentleman was aware it was neither usual nor proper to make any general statement of finance. The Resolution was agreed to, the House re sumed, and the Report was ordered to be re ceived on Monday. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for a Committee of Supply. On the question that the Speaker do leave the • Mr. CHETWYND said; at a period like the pre sent, when so much distress prevailed, when so Many manufacturing towns were on the verge of insolvency, and when so many taxes were so pa tiently borne, the people of England were look ing with anxious eyes to those who represented them in the great Council of the nation. They tad crowded the table with Petitions, with the strongest prayers, in the most courteous lan guage. In the discussion of the Army and Navy Estimates great efforts had been made to ef fect reductions, but they had failed.—(Hear!)-:--- Those exertions had, however, done much prac tical good ; they had had the effect of clearly exposing to view a system of extravagance of - which he, for one, had no idea, and which had in '<laced many well thinking, persons to say, that if the House did not reform itself within, a 'revolu tion must take place without. Be believed that the first would be the case, forhe would prophecy that no War Minister wonld, next year bring down such Estimates as those of the present year —if he did, he would be addressed, in the lan ' guage his Majesty used when he saw the head of Charles the First in the vault at Windsor— :" Take it away ! take it away ! it is too horrid to contemplate." He hoped nothing would in duce the Honourable Gentlemen opposite him to relax in their exertions, for economy. lie for one would remain by them till Christmas to op pose one shilling being voted beyond what was 'absolutely necessary. The digress of the coun try was such, that if relief was not given, - the - yeomanry must be - annihilated, and it tihird hot but excite the utmost disgust that under such circumstances extravagant establishments should be persisted in. He moved, as an amendment, 44 That it be an instruction to the Committee,. that, duly taking into consideration the circum stances of the country, they should proceed to enforce the most rigid system of economy, as far'. 'as the same can be held without detriment to the substantial interests of the State." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, no one denied the Hon. Gentleman's general propo- Bition ; they only denied that the Estimates were extravagant.—(Bear, hearl from the Opposition.) Mr. M-ABERLY said, it was trifling 'to say that -there had been a sincere desire of economy mani Vested. The mere fact that with 81,000 soldiers, '22,000 sailors, and 6 or 7000 artillerymen, there - was an expenditure o • f 17 millions, was conclusive as to its extravagance. If this was to be the expenditure in the time of peace, what w ere they -to have in war ?—(Hear, h ear 1)-1 f there was an earnest desire of economy, within the next twelve tnonths four millions might be saved. Re trenchment should proceed from the highest offices downwards instead of beginning frith the lowest, and he hoped his Majesty himself would set the example. He advised the Ministers to - withdraw their Estimates, and propose more red i;ona hie ones. Lord LONDONDERRY said that the only object of ReFolutions of this description was to give Gentlemen an opportunity for making broad as sertions in high sounding phrase, at a time when they could notlae met in detail. I fGentlemen bad obintions to make, the most effectual place for making them would be in the Committee. An lion. Gent. opposite had said that the expen diture of carrying on the Government of this country might be reduced by four millions. Now, out of the seventeen millions which. it did amount to, five millions were beyond the coutroul of Government, being applied to allowances and other fixed expenc:•s ; and if, out of the remain ing twelve, the Hon. Gentleman would take away four, did l.e imagine, that this great empire was to have its Government carried on at an expend of no more than eight millions ? The Hon. Gen tleman and the. House might be assured that there was no effort which Ministers could make towards economy, which they did not make.—(Hear ! from the Opposition.)L—They were bound to make those efforts ; and he could not, therefore, but protest against the round assertions which had been made by. Gentlemen on the other side. of the House., Mr. MABERLY said, the Noble Lord had im puted to him a gross blander. He had never put the whole expence of the empire at 17 millions, but the military expenditure only,— (Hear !) Besides those 17 millions, there were four. mil lions of Civil List, the Miscellaneous Esti mates, and payments ,out of the gross Revenue. The reduction must be spread over the whole expenditure. Mr. CALCRAFT :said, th►e lion. Gentleman (Mr. Moberly) -so - far from having feared to advance his opinions in a Committee, had stated them over and over again without being refuted. The reason for a motion such as the present was, that when they got into the Committee any benefit was hopeless ; they had,moved reduction after reduc tion, and not a shilling bad been reduced. The lion. Gentleman who made the motion was de serving. of thanks, as well for the substance of it as for the manner in which he had propOsed 'it. Mr. IlustussoN said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr'. Calcraft) proceeded upon the usual assumption, that all reason' eras on the side of the minority and none on the side of the majority, but the Hon. Gentleman was the.less entitled to speak on the subject, as he bad seldom attended to hear them. The Civil, List,.the lion. Gentleman must recollect, was voted for the life of the Sovereign, and, therefore, did not admit of sudden reduc tion, though no doubt it was competent for Par liament to hold a check over it when aid was ap plied for.. The Estimates were 1 million be-, low those of the preceding war, and great ef forts were made to ,redu.ce the expence of the collection of the revenue. Lord Mu:l.ON called the attention of the Right lion. Gentleman to the period immediately fol lowing the close of the war. Between the pro posing and voting the Estimates on that occasion, a remarkable circumstance had occurred. it bad been attempted to introduce the Property Tax, which design however had been defeated by the House. Yet although the ,Estimate then before the House had been described as the lowest which could possibly be adopted, the Hon. Se _ . , cretary of War, in consequence Of the failure of the Property Tax, had brought down to the House Estimates considerably lower thanthose which he had before represented to be the lowest that _ _ could be furnished. There never was a time when there, had been a greater necessity for eco nomy than at the present moment. He thanked the Hon. Gentleman, (Mr. Chetwynd) for his sentiments, and also for the manner in which they had been expressed. Those sentiments were his own. The language which the lion. Gentleman had used was the language of. the Constitution. ft had been spoken by our ancestors in the 17th century, and ought to be acted upon in the 19th The Hon. Gentleman had expressed a fear of re volution ; the term revolution was vague and uncertain, but there was beiond dispute . a revo lution operating on the .state of property, which he was confident, unless speedily checked, would sweep .aWay the middle class of society. lie could hardly believe that Ministers were aware of the depressed state of the country. Mr. liumr. contended for the right of Parlia- Ment to review the amount of the civil list, and he hoped that before the year Was expired the amount of that establishakent would be reduced. If ever a House of Commons had been indifferent to the people's purse, it was when they establish ed the civil list at 870,0001. a year—a sum now, from the change in the 'value of money, equal to 1,400,000/. It VVIS said that the estimates for this year were, a millign and a half less than those of the last. In answer to this, he should only say. that the Ordnance estimates for the - present year exceeded by 100,0001. those of the last.— (Hear.)—They were last year 1,2001. and odd thousandi they were now 1,327,0001. The first , vote about to he called for when they- went into the Committee was 63;000/. for the Ordnance establishments in -the -Tower and.- Westminster. In the year 180 S this branch cost but 20,0001., and nosy it was to cost 63,0001.—(11ear.) Mr. llusrrssos explained, and the House di vided upon the amendment, when the numbers were, For the Amendment - - - - 40 Against - it - - - . - - - 05 Majority in faYour of the origmal Motion - —25 Upon our re-admission to the 'Gallery we found Mr. WARD on. his leg 4 pleading for the general character of the Estimates. The Hon. Member concluded with proposing the grant of 4,6391. for the use of the Chit - Officers and Clerks of the Ordnance upon foreign stations. Mr. HumE observed, that the grants to all the old foreign stations, included in this proposition, were no less than double what they had been, while those for the new stations were unaccount- ably extravagant. Jn Malta it was proposed to make the allowance double what it was in 1808, while at Ceylon it was to he trebled, the allow- ance in 008 being only 1,1501., while the al lowance now proposed was 3,270/. What could be the reason also of such increase in the lonian Islands, where c from what he. heard, and he had the best opportunities of information from that quarter, the whole . expence of the Ordnance might easily be defrayed for 5001. a year. At Barbadocs, the expence under this head was also increased, while at all the other teewaidlansis it was more than doUbled. After animadverting upon the increased allowance for the Capp of Good Hope, Which exceeded that since the year 1816, the lion. Member adverted 'to what he called the extraordinary 'establishment at Heli goland, which was incapable'of defence—which, before we took . possession of it, was committed to the care of a serjeant 'and a few men, which had never more than fifty or one hundred mi litary men stationed there, ever since it came into our possession, which, in fact,, was of no use .to this' country, unless during the war that exclaled our commerce from the Continent. Yet in this wretched spot, we had at present a storekeeper at a salary. of 3584. a year, whose only office he understood' to be that of taking care that the evening-and morning guns should be fired.—(A laugh, and hear, hear !) Bot to even this sort of duty it was impossible for this storekeeper to attend ; for Mr: Arm strong, Who held the office, had been lately in England for, six months. But this was only one of the many items of extravagant expenditure at this Heligoland, as it cost the country no leSs than 10,000/. a year, which sum,was more than double the value of the fee simple of the whole. island. --(Hear, hear !)—The Hon. Member, after ex pressing a wish to have some statement laid be fore the. House, sheaving the items of reduction, which produced the falling oft of 1,500,0001. in the present Estimates, as compared with those of the last' year, coneluded with moving a reduction of one-foOrth in all the proposed allowances„ namely, that 3,557/. should be struck off from' 'the sum proposed hY the Secretary of the Ordnance. Mr. WARD observed, that as the lion. Mem ber had pronounced the proposition as to Heligo land to be the most "extravagant of all, lie must Conceive that sort of denunciation to be an implied eulogium upon all the other grants proposed.-- The Hon. Meinber had observed, that all the grants for the several colonial officers and clerks were ddubled in the Estimates on the table, but the fact was,. that they were -doubled only on paper, as the several officerS Were, upon thiS ad vance, deprived of certain perquisites and emolu ments, which they and their predecessors h a d re ceived for series of years. It was, for instance, the 'practice of thoSe officers to draw rations for the Subsistence of themselVes and their families, Which were paid for at the public expence. But this practice was now abolisheth That abolition most considerably reducethe revenue of Storekeep-: ers, as Well as that of others, and the proposed ad vance was but a small CoMpensation for that di- Minution. As to Ceylon, It should be considered that if the grant to that Island Was trebled, the establishments there were trebled also. 'Then as to Malta, the grant could not' be deemed exces sive, when it Was reCollected that if the fortifica tions of that garrison were in a line, they would extend to 50 miles, while there were no lesS than 600 pieces of cannon . there. With respect to Heligoland, nothing was proposed for our esta blishment there that was not deemed absolutely necessary, and as to the remark of the lion. Gen, tleman that there were only a few soldiers in that island before it came into our possession, that could bo deemed no criterion of its conse, quence, for Gibraltar had only 700 soldiers in the garrison,at the time it was originally taken posh session of by our forces. .The lion. Member concluded with deprecating the Amendment, as every practicable reduction had been made in the Estimates before they were submitted to the House. Mr..BENNrr animadverted with'peculiar pun: gency and animation upon what he described as the dangerous doctrine of the last speaker as to the grant of compensations. What, he Would ask, was it to be laid down as •a principle that because certain officers had been by a sort of lineal inheritance in the habit of robbing the public for 40 or 50 years, by exacting fees or perquisites, that upon being deprived of those fees or perquisites, they should be precluded the opportunity of making farther plunder, such (a . cers should be entitled to compensation-=-(hear!) -? —But this practice of granting gratuities and com pensations was very much a favourite at the Or dnance. He had heard of the recent assertion of a similar principle elsewhere, and he did not know that it was not borrowed from the Ord nance Office._ ...The. Magistrates who had . the superintendance of Coldbath-fields PriSon hav, ing been somewhat 'surprised a -short time since at the number of . visitors who had ap plied for admission to that prison, inquired - into the cause, and they found that the applicants came recommended by a Clerk of the Polic e , who, as it turned out, had exacted a fee for each of his recommendations, which usually prb--' cured admission to-the prison. But upon' disco vering this practice, the Magistrates immediately ordered the practice of exacting fees to be dis-, continued. The Yolice _Clerk. remonstrated, -stating that he only continued the practice of his predecessor,_ and asserted his right to compensa tion, f that practice- were to be discontinued.—(A laugh, and hear, hear!)- . -Whether this Clerk quoted the practice of the Ordnance Office in support of his claim—(a laugh)—he (Mr. B.) could not Pretend to say ; but - he - knew 'that the claim was Withstood upon that principle of. com mon justice -which he hoped would urge that House to resist the proposed compensation to the . Ordnance extortioners of our Colonies.—(feac!) The honourable Member entreated the House to consider how they must be collectively and individually regarded by the country, if, after so many forcible appeals to their .jus tice, they should still continue to disregard every consideration of economy. how could .hose Gentlemen answer to their constituents and to their conscience, ss ho, notwithstanding the present state .of public distress, had not yet voted for the reduction of one penny of the-pub lic expenditure. They had been called upon to reduce the expence at Malta, the revenue of which would have been quite sufficient to defray its own expellee, if softie members of the needy Nobility had not been quartered upon it ; but such was the case with many other Colonies, and with the Cape of Good Hope in particular. The call was,. therefore, in vain, because it was ad- dressed to Ministers, who maintained their power through the aid of needy Nobles and other poli tical adventurers, whom, like ,Ministers themselves; sought their own interest only at the expence of a sutferingand impoverish e d c oun t r y. Mr. R. WAnn said he should confine himself . to a . shrglk' observation, for the sake of:Gentle men wilt,' w(11% quite 'as -Iftmest and respectable as any Hon. Gentleman opposite. He had nei ther used the word robbery, as imputed to him by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, nor had he ad mitted that any abuse existed. The fact was, that the officers were authorised to receive the rations as perquisites by public documents, which existed so long ago as the year 1.756.. Ile could not but regret that Hon. ,Gentlemen opposite should avail themselves of their privilege, as Members of that House, to' shinder individuals who had no means of , answering the charges which were brought against them. Mr. G. BENNET maintained, that if the officers drew rations, which they had no right to draw, at the public expence, it was in effect a robbery, and the word was very properly used. If they were authorised to do so by warrants from Go vernment, then Government, and not the officers, were the robbers. Mr. R. WAan reported that it was no abuse at all, inasmuch as they yeere, fully authorised to re celie the rations. Me: J. SMITH hoped the Hon. Gentleman op posite_ would give some explanation of the con duct of the individuals of whont the Hon. Mem ber for Aberdeen had complained. Mr. Hume denied that he had made any: sweeping charges. In' challenging particular facts, he had been anxious to confine himself to those facts, and not to indulge in generalities. With respect to the establishment'at - Sheerness, he did assert, and he repented now, that the Storekeeper, who was in the receipt of a large salary, was in the habit of taking away boat loads of timber and coals froM the public stores to his own house. The facts at Faversham were, one of the clerks in that establishment reported to the Board of Ordnance, that Mr. Minton ap propriated tc his private use, timber which was capable -of being applied to the p u bli c service. He was c a ll e d upon to :send in a formal charge, andin . the full confid e nc e , of the truth o f his statement, he sent in a written accusation. Six 'months were suffered to 'elapse before the llon. Gentleman opposite took any steps to in vestigate 'the truth of the charge, and when at length a Commission was sent down to Fever sham to inquire into the circumstances, the Officers were suspended. The Honourable Gen tleman had not laid the result - of that inquiry be fore the House. But though the officers were suspended, the poor 'man Who made the charge was discharged. The Hon. Member contended, that if, there . was the least disposition to reduce useless places and useless expenditure, the whole expences of the Establishments at Heligola.nd, Gibraltar, and the Cape of Good Hope, might be saved. lie should certainly press his Amend ment to a division. • Mr. W; SMITH observed, that when the Cape of Good Hope was in 'the possession of the Dutch, it did not cost the Government of Hol land a single stiver. Now if the Dutch could make their Colony support itself, though they had to contend with a superior maritime power, surely it ought to be inquired into, why the Civil and Military Departments of the Cape were a source of so much expence to this cou n t r y. AR Mr. R. WD said, it was a fallacy to argue that the Dutch kept the Cape against a superior maritime power, seeing that we had taken it from them. With regard to the statement of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, he begged to observe, that the officers had not been suspendEd from any conviction of their guilt, •but merely because that was the usual course, pending an inquiry into the conduct of inferior officers by their superior officers. The result of the in quiry was a complete acquittal. It was true that the officers had converted the wood to their own use, but it appeared that they had misunder stood the order, of the Board of Ordnance, and conceived that this wood was a perquisite which still remained. There was no ground whatever for a charge of peculation. Some irregular ap propriations had been committed, and they arose from very ridiculous causes, but were to be ascribed to any thing rather than to the score of dishonesty. So much for Sheerness, and with regard to Feversham, charges had certainly been preferred against the Storekeeper, Am ou ting almost to felony, for having purloined' timber 'and other public property, and for return ing false vouchers. The lion. Member complain ed that no inquiry had taken place for six months, but if he had been aware of the corre spondence which took place previous to the in quiry. be would find that his (Mr. R. Ward's) time had been . sUfliciently filled up. The Hon. Member assumed, that because the charges were proved, the clerk 1v as dismissed ; lie (Mr. W.) was persuaded, that there was not a Member in that nouse, or an individual in the country, who could believe so preposterous a charge; and if the llon. Gentleman's mind were so constructed as to come to such a conclusion, he (Mr. W,.) would not consent to enter into communication with such a mind.--(A laugh.)—The Ho nourable Gentleman had been totally misin formed, by .a person whose evidence was worse than he had ever seen given in a Court of Justice. With regard to the charge of false vouchers, the facts were these : there were three lists of the workmen employed in the Ordnance printed in the year, with the character and de- scription of each person annexed to his name. Upon the reduction of the establishment, the pay of the Warder, who received three shillings and six.-pence a day, vas reduced to two shill ings and fourpeuce a day, the pay of a labouring man. The storekeeper had neglected to strike out the word " warder" opposite his name, after he came under the description of a labouring man, and this was the sole ground of the charge. The Commissioners reported that the wjiole charge was false, groundless, and malignant, and the Master-General had accordingly beep advised to dismiss the man who made it. Mr. lIOME said, that with regard to Sheerness, the Hon. Gentleman had in fact admitted' the charge, though he thought proper to qualify the pecutatiou witich hid been committed by the mitigated term of an irregularity. He had not told the House that the order from the Board of Ord nance in ISO 9, that not a particle of timber should be taken, was so strict and -explicit that no man uld possibly misunderstand; on the cOntrary, he was the principal Officer ot--the Ordnance pal liating the condio .of Officers \vho 'Committed peculation in the ace of that order. The lieu. Gentleman was holding out an encouragement to pilfer, and, in effect, saying to every servant of the Ordnance " Do what, you will, commit what peculations you''please, and I will defend you."—(hear, hear I)—With respect to Fever sham, the man who was admitted to have com mitted what the Hon. Gent. called an irregularity received an additional gratnity,while the poor tnau, who ventured to point out the irregularity to.tke Board . of Ordnance, was dismissed. He (Mr. HO had not said that the 'whole of the charge had been proved. What he complained of was, that the man was not allowed to prove his charge. Mr. WAREE thought that sufficient .attention had not been paid to what fell from the Hon. Member for Norwich relative to the Cape of Good Hope. The Hon. Member then made some observations upon the expenditure of that Co lony, and complained particularly of the salary of the Governor. Mr. GOULBURN observed that if it was meant to be stated that the Cape of Good hope tinder the Dutch Government maintained its own civil and military expenditure, he must deny that statement altogether, as it was not consistent with the facts. He then defended the presemt Establishments at the Colony, and said that the .' salary of the Governor was not more than suffi cient for the necessary expenses of his situation. Mr. W. SMITH again rose, when The CHAIRMAN wished to observe to the Com mittee, although it • was perfectly competent for it to proceed as it liked, that a question upon a grant of money for the Civil Officers of the Ord nance, did not seem to apply in any. way. what ever to the general system of Colonial Government. Lord MILTo N considered, that when the was voting away money for the public service, it . • •. I was quite compet en t f or them to enter ;lit° an examination of any branch of the expenditure._ Such was at least the old and constitutional - way, but Gentlemen opposite might well object to•it. for they did not at all act upon the old rules and • conduct of Parliament. Mr. W. SMITH explained.—The Committee then divided. For the Amendment - - ,Against it - - - - , Majority in favour of the original Resolution-31 Thynext Resolution was a Grant (.4 50,0001. for BarraJis and, Garrison Stores, in Great Britain, and the Islands - of Guernsey and Jersey. 31r. GIPPS wished to have some explanation relative p some items in this Estimate. It appeared to him that for cer tain services Which were now charged 35,0001., only 25,001!1. had been voted in 1817. Mr. WARD explained, that the extra 15,0001. was charged iupon this Estimate, instead of, the unprovided account, where they appe'-ed in 1817. Mr. HUME complained of the confusion which they met` in this Estimate, and that the Committee could not vote-it, without further explanation. Mr. .I. SMITH could not understand how 15,0001. cculd be expended in bedding for Garrisons, and particularly when those articles were cheaper than they had been for forty years. • Mr. GIPPS confessed that he. did not understand the reason why this increase 'was made, and he therefore moved, that the Estimate he reduced to 33,3001. - - - Sir U. BURGH said that tie 1:15,000 included the paY'° l Barrack Serjeants and other contingencies. Mr. HUME said the present Estimate ought to postpon edbei until Hon. Members could un d ers t an d t h e particulars of it contents. Alter a few observations from Mr. WARD, Mr. UIPPS said, if the Mn. Gentleman would postpone the Estimate, or put the House in 'poiseasion of explanatory. pit" pers, he would withdraw his Amendment. Mr. WARD had no objection to furnish whatever papers the Hon. Member desired. • Mr. HUME complained of other portions of the Estimate, and said it ought to undergo considerable reduction. Mr. MABERLY said, that when he had proposed a reduc tion of four millions upon the whole expenditure, the Nole Lord said that they ought first to examine the details ; and not they were come .to the details, there was no disposition irl-ext .ever to retrench. He complained that the Government had got into too expensiv e a s y s t em . Th e S tore D epartments i n `the Ordnance, and Naval 'Miscellaneous 'Service, might' be -dis pensed with. Mr. WARD stated, the subjects to which the Hon. Member alluded had been submitted to inquiry, and the result was, that any small saving would rise up again in the shape of half-pap The Hon. Member for Aberdeen had objected to the payment of XBOO to persons connected with the establishment at UraVes - upon a supposition that seven or eight workmen required Gentlemen to look after them. The faCt was, that at fir a's-e,:end and Tilbury, there were not less than 15" barrels of powdcf , which must be looked after, otherwise a great loss might be sustained by the country. Tt was paying MR per annum fo x the security of th e va l ue o f t h e pow d er, which amounted to considerable sum. Mr. BERNAL considered it quite uslcss to keep pow ler at Purfleet - , and Gravesend, for the Its:: of ships.of war, as there was depth of water fo r su ch vesse l s ' to rake it powder at AVOQI' Mr. HUME complained of the manner in which powder rites kept in different magazines, as tending to increase expense. - Mr..WARD remarked, that it had formerly been a matter 0 , complaint that too much powder was kept in one place : t, present instan ce th e y were cons id ere d, blameable for keeping 1 ; - dispersed, O n one u e cas i on , w h en 60,0 W/ barrels were kept as Purflect, all Essex was in a state of alarm ; some supposed.it' would explode and turn the 'course of the Thaine,?....4A laugl l o After a few observations from Mr.• T. WiLsoN • Mr. OwP 4 I Mr. JOIIN SMITH, and Mr. Warm, on the subject of 13 4" racks, the Committee divided— For the Resolution Against it - - - 6-1 Majority for it - - Mr. WARD - then proposed a grant of £217,,153 19s. 10d. 0 Account of balances and the pay of the several Officers in 00 1 * nance Corps. •Mr. HUME objected to this estimate on the ground that se" . veral master gunners Were paid for doing duty at stations whe re there was no duty to be discharged. At some stations there were no guns. - Mr. WARD explained the pay allowed matter gunners, to h e no more than a fair remuneration for long and useful se rvicesi. It was most important, l i e sa id, t o reward the good conduct. e , non-commissioned officers in the Artillery. In a political }OP, of view, the allowance to which the Hon. Member objected, ° li the most valuable of all the estimates. Mr. KENNET and Mr. Hum: urged the propriety of.°t ing the sum proposal, in separate estimates. „aid Mr. WARD finally consented to withdraw the estimate : — • it was accordingly withdrawn. Ile then moved. that,Xl2l;B Bs. ad. be granted to his lfaj for 57 master gunners and officers stationed in garrisons 3 ny 4 y batteries.—Agreed to. 44,030 13s. Bd. was proposed for,r;o4 of the Engineers of Great Britain,and Jeclanht, consiStin , officers, excepting 12 officers serving in Irel a nd a nd paid' T e ,;, - 1 1 Mr. HUME object e d t o th e a b ove , a ll e gi ng t h at the It, ° (,)i Engineers were appointed to do duty w h ere th ere was n o au • 124 had extra half-pay and other advantages. Colonel FRANKLIN stated that Engineer Officers W il in c g e peculiar duty to perform were not overpaid by the allelF 3 they received. ' Mr. HUME said he principally compl a i n ed that se ver3l were employed at Gravesend, where they had nothing to do.. Sir It. wILSQN said Officers of Engineers were all they receive. SO' The Estiniate was then voted ; as were X 24,378, - for the •A -peps and Miners; lia;ryna° • Mr. P. MOORE' then rose, and moved that the C • - do report progress. Mr. BROGDEN accordi , iglv left the Chair. be r e ' The House resumed, and the Report was p. &Ted to ceived:on Monday. • *a r ot The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mo the House, at its rising, adjourn to Monday..e.-Agreed to. „ Iv; The other Orders of the'Day were 'then disposed of, and House adjourned at ONE O'CL 0 Clt 043 .;\ IPT;lnik intitled