The Sun. — London, England, 1844-05-14 00:00:00

SPIRIA'ef the PUBLIC JOURNALS. riiOlllj l THE EVENING PAPERS OF YESTERDAY. GLOBE.—The County Courts' Bill stands in the 'notice-paper of the House of Commons for this even ing. " The further consideration of the Report" will be entered upon, should the adjourned debate on the Factory Bill terminate sufficiently early to allow of its being entertained, or a further adjournment of the debate be agreed upon, in order that this highly important Bill— w hi c h h as b een , i n our view, improperly delayed may be proceeded with. Further delay will render its passing in the present session unlikely, if not impossible. A sus picion will thus be strengthened—it has already arisen—that the Government is not sincere in its ex pressed wish for effecting this substantial improve ment in the administration of justice. It has been said, we hope without foundation, that the introduc tion of the Bill was rather intended by Ministers to relieve themselves from respondbility, than with any intention to urge the Bill forward through its seve ral stages, so that it might come into early operation. The provisions of the bill are such as to approve themselves to the general body of the commercial part of the community—especially to that portion of it which most feels the inconvenience of consi derable outlay, associated with the hazard of reco vering nothing from the debtor—entailed by the existing laws for the recovery of small debts. A debt under forty shillings is, in general, recoverable only by application to those ano malous tribunals, the Courts of Request, or, as they are generally designated, Courts of Conscience. " Confusion worse confounded" pervades these clumsy expedients created by the Legislature for settling the multifarious claims of petty shopkeepers upon their customers for default; of servants and work men upon their masters and employers for wages, payment of which is refussd or withheld; and of every other imaginable pecuniary dispute which may arise between such parties. The confusion of tongues was harmony itself compared with these Babels ; while Shakspeare's inimitable tdescription of "crowner's liw" is the perfection of reason compared with the discussions and decisions of the Commissioners— chosen by the parishes assigned to the districts within which the jurisdiction of these Courts extends—who " settle and determine" the matters brought before them. These reproaches upon the law, and fre quently outrages upon justice, will he got rid of, "at one fell swoop,' by this Bill. The " Mayors' Courts," which exist in some of the l a rger boroughs—and by which the inhabitants may sue and be sued for sums under 201.—are less ob noxious to censure, although far from approaching to what the present state of society requires. These will also be abolished by this Bill. They will merge in the new and more prompt and efficient tribunals now proposed to be established. We need hardly state that, with the exception of the tribunals we have named, the existing. law for the recovery of small debts is so extensive in its operation as to amount, in most cases, to a virtual prohibition of its use. What man—having the most remote concep tion of the expense, and with a reasonable acquaint ance with the " glorious uncertainty" of the law, together with the chan ces aga i ns t o bt a i n i ng hi s d e bt an costs from the defendant—would ever think of giving instructions to his attorney to bring an ac tion for the recovery of a sum of moderate amount? It under 201., the Courts at Westminster will transmit it for trial before the Sheriff; but then the costs—even though there •be no mo tion in the superior Court to deprive the plaintiff of his verdict—will be considerably more than the amount of which the Sheriff can take cognizance. The merits of the Bill for remedying the perplexities and confusion, arising out of the delay and expense of the existing state of the law, will be seen by a brief outline of its provisions. It proposes to provide "one rule and manner" for recovering debts not exceeding 151., and for the trial of " personal ac tions" throughout England. For this purpose County Courts are to be established, which, however, may be separated into districts. A judge, who at the time of his appointment must be a barrister of seven, or an attorney of ten years' standing, is to preside. All proceedings in cases assigned to their jurisdiction are to be brought before these Courts for decision. No writ or pleadings are requisite ; but a plaint, in writing, must be served on the defendant; in some eases seven, and in others ten days must elapse between the service of the plaint and the trial. If the amount sought to be recovered be less than 51., the judge may decide the claim without the intervention of a jury; if above that sum, a jury of five (of whom a majority may decide and return the verdict) may be obtained on the application of either party. The parties may address the Court in person, and may be themselves examined. Execution will be as effectually enforced as by process from the superior Courts. The necessity of personal service upon the defendant, by which the creditor is at present so frequently obstructed and the law defied, is rendered unnecessary. Thus a prompt adjudication is secured, and when obtained, the order of the Court is speedily enforced. Provie sion is made by the Bill for obtaining new trials ; but in order to guard against such applications being made to the superior Courts for the purposes of delay, security for costs must be given by the applicant. As the Bill now stands, execution may be issued against the person, as well as against the property, of the debtor. This provision will, of course, be dependent on the adoption of Lord Cottenham's Bill, for the abolition of imprisonment for debt in all cases decided by the Civil Courts. This Bill has passed the House of Lords with singular unanimity. After such a recognition of the principle, we scarcely see how the clause in the County Courts Bill, which gives the plaintiff a power to issue pro cess against the person of the debtor, can be re tained. The Bill provides for compensation to "exist ing interests." This is, unhappily, one of the results of long-continued evils from which the public interests have suffered, until the grievances have grown to an extent so great as to render their removal indispen sible. Those who have fastened themselves upon the system, and fattened upon the spoils, set up a claim to compensation for the loss of that which they ought never to have poesesssed. The price of the remedy may be high ; but better to pay high for a removal of the evil, than continue a system which preys upon •the best interests of the community. From two or three pamphlets which have been put forth on the sub ject, we perceive that the Bill has little favour with the attorneys. It is threatened with op position in Parliament, from the influence which many of these gentlemen exercise over members of the Legislature. Attorneys may, by permission of the judge, appear, and conduct causes brought before the Court ; but their fees, es fixed by the Bill, are, it is said, too low to remunerate them. They may, however, fairly look for remuneration to the amount of business which this Bill will throw into their hands. If they are now allowed to charge one or two guineas a day for attendin g c , in Court u p on t h e tr i al of one cause, they may be satisfied with 10s., or in some cases 155., when five or six causes may fall to their share in one day. STANDARD.—We find ourselves in a position in which we owe to those who honour us with their notice on explanation of the ground that we take, and the conduct that we are pursuing. The country has, for now nearly two years, had the benefit of what we firmly believe to be the wisest, the most patriotic, and, in every respect, the best Adminstration, that the men of our generation have ever seen occupying the councils of the Sovereign. The triumphs of its policy abroad and at home, which it has been al most our daily, and assuredly not ungrateful, task to detail the uninterrupted succession, attest the excel lence of the present Government. To Sir R. Peel's Ad ministration we have heartily and without reserve given our humble support, until its enemies and our enemies have not scrupled to impute our attachment to venality. Against that charge we scorned to make any other reply than a reference to the character of this journal and of all connected with it—scorned more especially to make a show of independence by captious objections and impertinent sneers, directed against the measures of the Government and its members. We felt, and we still feel, that Englishmen prove their independence by very different means, and th a t in questions of independence Englishmen will look for a different class of proofs from those small quarrels of the coquette, which are, indeed, but arts to preserve an interest by exciting al arm ; and are al w ay s employed to wi n or preserve, a res r e e rve, not to repel, fa vour . w Even now, when to place compelled by an irre sistible necessity and distinct opposition to ou s r .r selves in strong Robert Peel's Government, our only f ear is that we may be sus pected of such unworthy arts ;but here again we cast our reliance upon character. The question ch forces us into this painful opposition t o the Queen's n Ministers is, as our readers have already antici pated, the question of Lord Ashley' s propositions. This is a great question, and as such it is appre ciated by her Majesty's Ministers, or they would not take upon it the line that they have taken—a line which they must see, for they are wise and sagacious men, v;ill seriously affect their just popularity in the country, materially impair the strength of the Conservative party that has placed them in office, and render almost certain the heavy calamity of a change in the Government at no distant day Upon any question less than a vital one, a Government such as Sir Robert Peel's would not encounter these sacrifices; and these are, in truth, consequences of the line taken by Ministers which ro man who sincerely loves his country can contemplate without pain. Be this, however, as it may, the Ministers have resolved to confront them, and it would be equally absurd and unjust to sup pose that they embark in the risk without a power ful motive of conscience. On the other side we, and most of Lord Ashley's t suppo r t ers , es ti ma t e the full m agn i tude of h our object were merely to question in issue. If y steal popul ar f avour for a measur e , to underrate its importance would be an obvious artifice to resort to; but this is not our purpose. T roposition of Lord Ashley, if successful, must establish the principle that the Legislature will henceforth, as far as a legis lature can, protect the labouring classes from the power of wealth, how peaceably and openly soever that power may be exercised, as the laws already protect all classes from the power of vio lence and fraud. This is a great question, but it is right in justice to all parties that it be perfectly un derstood. The introduction of the protective principle spoken of must work an important, and, as we believe, a most beneficial change in the whole social system of the country ; but we think that its ope ration will be at first slow, almost insensible indeed, except by those immediately to be benefited, com paratively a few, while through all its progress the reform will be mild and healing. The Ministers, on the other side, see the magnitude of the change, and charged as they are with the peace and prosperity of the country, and therefore justly cautious, if not timid, they dread the risk of so bold an experiment in their time. EXTENSIVE CONFLAGRATION AT LYME REGIS. LYME REGIS, MAY 11.—We have to record a most de structive fire which occurred in this town to-day. The fire broke out about half-past 9 A.M., on the premises of Mr. G. Sellers, baker, residing in George's-court. By some means unknown some furze in aloft adjoining became ignited, and was speedily in a blaze, which quickly communicated to the stables of the George Inn, the roofs of which, being com posed of thatch, were soon in a complete flame ; and the dwelling-house of Mr. Sellers, the George Inn, the house of Mr. J. Channon, and tho whole of the premises adjoining were quickly burnt to the ground, the inmates having scarcely time to save any of their effects. As we have been destitute of rain nearly two months everything was excessively dry ; and the flames, aided by a fresh breeze at N.E., spread with the greatest rapidity, and quickly crossed the street to the opposite premises, when the Victoria Inn and the adjoining premises fell a prey to the devouring element, the whole of the furniture and stock being entirely consumed. Nothing could now ar rest the progress of the flames. Both sides of Coombe-street being on fire, the greatest consternation and alarm prevailed. The scene became truly awful, as several houses caught fire at once, and women and children were seen running about the streets in a state of distraction, endeavouring to save some por tion of their goods. The wind had now carried the flames to the stables of the Cups Hotel, which, being all thatched, burned with the greatest fury, and soon communicated to the dwelling-house, and the whole of the extensive premises of the head inn in the town were soon reduced to a heap of ruins, with barely suffi cient time to' save the horses and different vehicles in the yard. Meanwhile the fire cottinued to pro ceed through Coombe-street, the houses on each side being entirely destroyed, as far as Mr. Munden's on one side, and the Crown Inn on the other—both being pre served by pulling down a house between each and the fire. The Pilot-boat Inn had by this time caught fire, and, the flames spreading rapidly, it was soon burnt down, together with the whole of the adjoining houses on the left hand, and also behind, with the salt and coal cellars of Messrs. Prosser. The custom-house next followed, being levelled with the ground; but all the books and papers belonging thereto were fortunately preserved. In spite of the exertions of the firemen, and the plentiful supply of water to the engines, the fire pro ce2ded up the street, and the Commercial Reading rooms, the houses of Mr. Bowring, Captain Urquhart, Mrs. Fox, Mrs. Sellers, Mr. Hooks, Mr. Landrays, the Conservative Reading-room. the extensive premises of Mr. J. Sellers, maltster and brewer, the New Inn, with the buildings behind, were all burnt to the ground. The only house not wholly burnt being that of Mr. Templeman's, which is only partially destroyed ; whilst the shambles oppositeis entirely unroofed, and the clock, with the spire and vane, totally demolished. In the afternoon the wind gradually subsided, and the progress of the flames was fortunately arrested. The amount of damage done is immense. The lower part of the town presents a scene of de struction and desolation never witnessed here since the memorable fire of Nov. 5, 1803, when the whole of Mill green was destroyed. About forty houses have now been burnt down, amongst which is the head inn, and five other public-houses. The greater part, we believe, are insured, but many have lost their all, whilst vast numbers have had their goods torn to pieces and lost by removing to a place of safety. Great praise is due to the officers and crows of hor Majesty's cutters Adelaide, Eagle, and Asp, which happened to be in the roads at the time, and whose exertions to stop the progress of thc flames, both by assisting in pulling down the houses and at the engines, were highly meritorious, as were also those of the inspecting commander and the coast-guard. Had the fire happened in the night the consequences must have been much more disastrous, and probably attended with loss of life.—Shipping Gazette. POLICE INTELLIGENCE. (YESTERDAY.) MANSION-HOUSE. The LORD MAYOR stated from the chair that he had received several letters from various parts of England, Ireland, and Scotland, calling his attention to certain printed communications which the writers had received from parties who either were, or pretended to be, com mercial firms in and about London. One of the corre spondents, a retired tradesman, stated in his letter that he was convinced the parties must have found his name in an old directory. As the circulars inclosed in the letters were all precisely similar, and the signatures were different, his Lordship was convinced that an extensive gang of swindlers were engaged in this system for the purpose of obtaining money, or securities for money, trom inexperienced, incautious, or distressed tradesmen. Mr. Goodman (the chief clerk to the Mansion-house) read the following letter, in which one of the circulars had been inclosed : " Bermondsey New-road, London, April, 1844. " Slll,—Having carried on this agency, as per circular in closed, many years, and having metiwith most respectable and increasing patronage, we beg leave to address one to your re spectable establishment, trusting that upon any occasion you feel disposed to accept our services, you will find them bene to your interests, and deserving your countenance and support. If you decide upon this method in making a re mittance for our commission at any time, please to send Post office orders, as it has frequently occurred that letters inclos ing Bank notes have never come to hand, and also a copy of the undertaking, signed by yourself, when you will be re mitted such bills for the amount you request as will not fail meeting your approval. We always keep on hand bills of all amounts and dates, from 501. to 3501., accepted by merchants and factors, and endorsed by respectable brokers, tradesmen, and agents, and we can also change them in great variety from time to time, as circumstances may arise to require it, to prevent their having the appearance of accommodation paper. Any time, if it should happen you have goods on hand, and find sales dull or difficult, and wish to make trial by sending us part, we will use our best endeavours to turn them into money for you to advantage, towards paying your bills as they become due, or remit you the cash as they are sold. This we can attend to at any time, whether you require bills or not, having a general shipping commission, &c. " We beg leave to remain, , Sir, yours very respectfully, " J. MELLISH and CO." His LORDSHIP having directed one of his officers to make inquiry relative to Mellish and Co., his messen ger soon afterwards returned, and introduced Mr. Perry, of the Bankruptcy Agency-office in Cornhill, as a gen tleman who could supply the necessary information on the subject of the plan. Mr. Perry, upon looking at the circular, produced a vast number of copies of it, some of which were signed Morgan and Co., Old Kent. road ; others signed Smith and Co., Albany-road ; others Wigram and Co., Bar clay-place, Hackney. In fact, there were to these papers 40 or 50 different signatures, and they all contained copies of the undertaking, which the merchant requiring the accommodation was to sign. He (Mr. Perry) then produced a report of an exposure of the nefarious system, which had appeared in the Times newspaper in the year 1839; by means of which a check was for a considerable time given to the efforts of those who pursued it as a trade. The Lone MAYOR said, it appeared that the time had again come round for the experiment, which, no doubt, had been at one time very productive; but he should do everything in his power, as Chief Magistrate, to render all the attempts of the gang abortive. Mr. Perry stated that the new system had been acted upon ever since the days of the notorious Coster, and that he (Mr. Perry) could show by documents that the followers of that notorious person had been constantly at work in laying expedients for the plunder of the public. The LORD MAYOR said there was one paragraph in the circular of a very peculiar kind, and he was surprised how anybody who read it could for a moment be de ceived. The paragraph read, "It is particularly re quested, if this circular is of no immediate service, it may not be shown, unless to a confidential and respect able friend, whose object it is likely to serve, or who might wish to avail himself of this assistance upon some future occasion, as it is not multiplicity of business we want, but respectability, and in the safe, quiet, and mer cantile manner." His Lordship then issued particular directions to the officers of the Mansion-house on the subject of the extensive firms throughout the metropolis to which the circular refers. CLERKENTVELL. John Anderson was charged with creating a disturbance, and with assaulting police-constable, 54 G. The officer deposed, that between nine and ten o'clock on the previous night, the prisoner who was sober, was creating a disturbance with tivelor six females, at Cow-cross. He told him to desist, but the prisoner became more violent. The witness then attempted to push him away, but the pri soner struck him on the breast two or three times. Witness was obliged to obtain the assistance of another officer to take him to the the station-house. The prisoner solemnly denied having struck the officer; he was talking to some female acquaintances, when the police man came up, and pushed him away. He went into his own house, a marine-store shop. in Cow-cross-street. The police man Was quite drunk, and behaved in a most insolent and the females' manner, fl our i s hi ng hi s b aton over w i tness ' s and heads. W ere i t not f or another policeman who came u m pw e s h ' when the rattle N v h w e n a s prisoners p r sprung, , w s e 4 n tG into would hs h o a w v n e been much more violenthouse the constable camei o n a , s t o ind dragged him ou t, an d th en t oo k him to the station-house. A decent looking mechanic came forward and deposed to the correctness of what the , o h n e e r stated, whose conduct he said was quite inoffensive.ppoliceman's manner was bullying and offensive, and he was ' e drunk. Mr. LONG (to the policeman)—Did obtain the assist ance of another officer? Constable—. Mr. LONG—Why is he not here ? The constable made no reply. Mr. LONG—Did you, as stated, go into this man's house and drag him out of it ? Policeman—l did go int o his house.e Mr. LONG—And you took him out of it ? Policeman— Yes. Mr. LONG—Then why did you not state this on your direct examination? The policeman made no reply. Mr. LoNG—The prisoner is discharged. r believe his wit ness, and I am sorry to say that I do not believe much of what has been stated by the policeman, whose conduct has been most improper, and will, I hope, be made the subject of inquiry elsewhere.—The prisoner was discharged. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, May 13 Their Lordships met at Five o'Clock. Messengers from the Commons brought up severa Bills, which were read a first time. The Earl of MINTO gave notice that he should tomorrow move for a return of the services of her Majesty's ship Queen while in the Mediterranean. The Common Law Courts (Ireland) Bill passed through Committee, and was ordered to be read a third time on Friday. The Common Law Courts (England) Bill also passed through Committee, and was ordered to be read a third time on Friday. The Marquis of NORMANBY postponed till to morrow his question relative to the appointment of Mr. Gray to the magistracy in Ireland. Lord WHARNCLIFFE postponed his motion with respect to the new Houses of Parliament till Friday next. Lord LYTTELTON presented a petition from Worcestershire against the union of the sees of St. A3aph and Bangor. RAILWAYS. The Earl of AIALMESBURY said he had not quite understood, from the answer which was given by the Noble Earl, the President of the Board of Trade, on Tuesday last, to the Noble Earl opposite (Earl Fitzwilliam) respecting railways, whether the Government intended to sanction the propositions which were contained in the report which had been made to the Government on the subject of railways, which propositions involved very important principles. The object of the first of these propositions was that the public should be protected against paying too high rates of passage, and the next was that the profits on all railways should be limited to 10 per cent., and that in certain cases the Government should take the management of the railways. All example in his opinion proved that it was inexpedient to place such matters as railways under the manage ment of the Government of the country. The speech of the Noble Lord had made a great im pression on the country ; and he would ask whether the Government purposed taking those matters, in connexion with the railways, under their own i surveillance? Earl DALHOUSIE was sorry that the Noble Lord did not put the question before the House at an earlier period. With respect to the right of the railway companies to take a certain rate of profit, he thought that the Noble Lord opposite ought to have moved for a Committee to consider it. With regard to the other question, in the event of a dividend not reaching ten per cent., he thought that Government should be at liberty to purchase the lines under cer tain restrictions. After a few words from Earl DALHOUSIE, Earl FITZ WILLIAM said, the point to which he wished to direct the attention of the Government was the recent survey which had been completed of the United. Kingdom in the establishment of any particular line of railway. The matter then dropped. CRIMINAL LAW. Lord BROUGHAM said that, in rising to address their Lordships on the subject of the, criminal law of the land, for the discussion of which their Lordships had been summoned, he could not avoid feeling very great anxiety, and some apprehension, when he contemplated the very great importance of the subject, much more than he felt the difficulties that might surround the task which he had imposed upon himself. He had to state, in extenuation of the offence of putting himself forward to begin this discussion—first of all, that he did so most reluctantly, for he had held himself away from the subject, as the Noble and Learned Lord OR the woolsack well knew, and he had often ex pressed his unfeigned disinclination to grapple with it —that he had done all in his power to induce the Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack, with his longer experience, with his greater capacity, and his powerful influence, both with the Government and their Lordships, and in the vroftssion to which he and his Learned and Noble Friend belonged, to take this important task upon himself, but he had refused. But he (Lord Brougham) had no reason to think that his Noble and Learned Friend would be adverse to the proposition with which he was about to conclude, and he had no reason to apprehend that any opposition would be shown to it by the Government. The measure which he was about to explain had originated in the seven reports of the Common Law Commissioners, afterwards the Crimi nal Law Commissioners. That Commission was appointed to enter fully into the consideration of the criminal law of the land, with a view to its being digested into one general code. Hp would ask how much longer were they to remain with the criminal laws scattered over so many statutes—to re main diffused among so many books, and floating as it were, only in Westminster Hall? How much longer were they to suffer the criminal law to re main thus diffused, thus locked up—that criminal law which they ordered, and commanded every one of their subjects at his peril to disobey? It was at his peril to be ignorant of them. It was at his peril through ignorance to disobey them. He knew that many persons entertained prejudices, in his opinion utterly groundless, against all attempts at digesting the law of England—at making that law a written text, instead of locking it up in the traditions of the common law. Lord Mansfield, when at the bar, had said that it was always better that the common law should remain unwritten, because, said Lord Mansfield, while it remains unwritten law it works it self pure by rules drawn from the fountains of jus tice. He (Lord B.) approached these formulae with veneration. lie wished to quaff of their streams, and pluck some of those flowers which grew around their margin— Juvat integros accedero fontes, Juvatque novos accedere floras. Of the streams which flowed from those fountains he wished them to quaff, and he asked them with him to cull those new flowers. It did not follow that be cause the law was not wholly reduced to writing, they were therefore not encumbered with writ ing or printing. There were thirty-two quarto volumes of public statutes, besides three times as many private Acts, containing 30,000 printed pages, and this was independent of the common law. Now, let them look at the common law, on which Lord Mansfield laid so much stress. It consisted of the decision of the judges, who had to make up their minds in nine cases out of ten about conflicting decisions, and to apply their own sense of what they knew to be the law, although it might not be reduced to writing or clothed with the authority of judicial decision. What was the number of volumes of these decisions relating only to common law, and excluding the courts of equity, which had accumulated since the year 1786, the time when Lord Mansfield left the bench ? There were 160 closely-printed volumes of common law reports, beside ten volumes of Nisi Prius decisions, proceeding from the three courts of common law in Westminster Hall alone, without reckoning the Courts of Equity or the Courts of Ireland ; and it was necessary that the judges and the lawyers should be familiar with this mass of printed matter, painful to mention, and frightful to contemplate. He held in his hand a volume of three hundred closely-printed pages, containing more print than the whole of the Code Napoleon, and what did their Lordships think it was ? Peradventure, it was a digest of the whole of the common law? No. Peradventure, it was an index to the whole of the 160 volumes of reports ? No such thing. It was an index to the reports of the courts of Westminster-hall for one single year, 1842. A digest of the reports for the last 90 years consisted of 8,000 closely printed pages, and all those who had ceased to be students were bound, if they could, to make their own, by purchase, all these volumes, and, to try to read them if they dared. The judges it behoved to read, to understand, and to inwardly digest that mass, because they were out wardly called upon to give the results of that diges tion when they passed judgment. This process of accumulation was now going on more vigorously than ever; for every one of these common law reports . which were pUblished half a century ago, ten were now published, and at the present moment no less than fifty-nine learned persons were employed in reducing to writing the judgments which had been given, and in adding to this enormous mass of matter. This was a mass which it defied any property to procure, any memory to retain, or any perspicuity to understand. Was it then to be wondered at that the most venerable of judges and ablest of men who had written on jurisprudence, should have impressed on the Government to reduce this mass to something like order ; to enable those who administered the law to do it with satisfaction to themselves and with justice to the country. This was attempted in the Roman law towards the end of the sixth century ; and even Julius Cmsar and Justinian, two of the greatest men that ever lived, had made similar attempts. He would now come down to the history, of this country. As early as the time of Edgar an attempt was made to pj:acn the law upon a plain footing. Lord Bacon, in later times, said that a digest ought s to be made to give law a new light, but not a different_nature. But it might be said that Lord Bacon shone more as a philosopher than a lawyer, and that upon the litter sabjcet he was a 'visionary. But, then, what did they .say to Lord Coke : he said that to repeal many penal statutes and make one plpin, perspicuous law, divided into articles, so that every subject might know the law, and how to obey it, would be necessarily a work of singular commendation. Sir Matthew Hale, considering how great the mass of law books had become, and they were then as the box on their Lordships table compared with a house in the City —but, leaving theseauthorities, and coming to the Legis lature itself, they would find in 1650 a Committee sat with Whitelocke at its head; in 1656 another Committee sat upon the same subject, formed by men of similar eminence. And, in later times, in 1816, a resolution was is c nhT o omoluuBesi2det6o:f introd u ced Commons by both H ouses o f P ar li ament, that the great work of be dige o sti: ro g oy t u ehsde a law should be performed, and the i pa ssed for tthat a measure vote r purpose.dthi digesting et stueminentSirgßuand ed l r a ct w or y nes e eo r i s.: lidating the state of the law of property. He (Lord - Brougham) had spoken of digesting not only the statutary law, but the common law, and thought the statement he had made of the diffused condition of the statute law was sufficient to show that the common law ought not to be excluded from the operation of his motion. The dictum was that all men should obey this law, yet it was embodied in no less than 150,000 closely printed pages, which was elucidated by an index with no less than 1,150 pages. He thought it was a most painful thing to judges to have to depend, in deciding upon those cases, upon their own discretion ; what he wanted was to have some fixed rule by which judges were to decide, be cause he was confident that the crimes of murder, arson, treason, and such like, were the same now as during the days of Coke. A judge should be alone influenced by what was the actual law as declared by the Legislature, and not be induced to declare what law was. Let their Lordships suppose a case wherein a judge had to decide a question in relevance to which no statute law had been enacted. What was his position ? Why, he had to consult the reports of all the decisions which bore the slightest analogy to that particular case, and there he was left to grope in the dark through all those cases, in order that he might find something like that which was under his consideration. The consequence of all this was inextricable dis putes and difficulties. During fifteen years of his life, he had had opportunities of being impressed with the cogency of those arguments; and, in making this assertion ho was fully borne out by M. Dupin, the celebrated French writer upon criminal jurisprudence. (The Noble and Learned Lord then road a quotation from M. Dupin's pamphlet, in which he stated that the greatest benefit had resulted from the formation of a cri minal code in France.) This gentleman, it must be re membered was originally far from being enamoured of codes, but was a sceptic on the subject. Experience, however had taught him better. To show the necessity of a criminal code, he would inform their Lordships that the Criminal Law Commissioners had collected no less than thirteen definitions of the crime of theft. There were 1,540 statutes in force, 658 repealed, or supposed to be repealed. There were 142 repealed, or repealed by ' implication ; 234 of what was called obsolete statutes, and 780 expired, being 3,354 Acts of Parliament altogether. Now, of those repealed, or supposed to be repealed statutes, 142 were doubtful. No man could tell whether these 142 were or were not repealed. There was, for instance, the 3d and 4th Edward VI., chap. 10, which made it a very grave offence for a per son to have in his possession images taken from a church, with the merciful provision; 4 S except Noble Lords, who are reputed saints"—(Laughter)—so that if he (Lord Brougham were to buy an image which came out of a church, under this statute, which was not repealed, he might be punished. Then there was an Act in ex istence which provided punishment for " fond and phan tastic attempts to stir up faction." This Act might be brought with force against many of their Lordships.— (Laughter.) There were Acts, 26th Henry VIII., and sth and 6th Edward VI., by which it was made treason to call the Sovereign an infidel, so that 140 years ago, under this Act, it would have been treason to speak the truth, and have said of William 111., that he was a schismatist. The Noble and Learned Lord then enume rated several other obselete statutes, respecting which, much doubt existed as to whether they had been re pealed or not. One was to prevent corn being exported when the price was above 6s. Bd. the quarter ; another to prevent the importation of foreign cards for wool carding, and a third was for the purpose of imposing a shilling fine on all persons neglecting to attend their parish church on a Sunday. This statute was supposed to be obsolete until a short time ago, when it was brought into life in Lancashire. Three men were brought before the magistrates for poaching on a Sunday, but the case was not made out against them. Before how ever they were discharged, one of the justices inquired of the prisoners if they had been to church the previous Sunday, and finding that they had not, he sentenced them to a fine of eleven shillings each, and costs, and these men suffered an imprisonment of eleven weeks in consequence. He (Lord Brougham) in his letter to Sir James Graham last year, mentioned this circumstance, and a Right Hon. Friend of his, shortly after the publi cation of the letter, wrote to him (Lord Brougham) to say, that the printer had made one of the greatest blunders that printer ever made, for he had printed " poaching," for " preaching."—(Laughter.) But what was Mr. Cooper's, his (Lord Brougham's) friend's sur prise, when he was informed that the printer was right. Mr. Cooper believed, when lie read the letter, that the men had been fined for preaching in some conventicle. There was another absurdity in our statute book, and that was the manner in which the various Acts were described. In the 31st of George the Second, ch. 33, the following things were all found together : an Act for preventing trading by bankrupts ; for pre venting abuse as to the admeasurement of coals in the City of London and Liberty of Westminster ; and for preventing the stealing or destroying madder roots. Another Act in the same reign, the 29th George 11., was for regulating places of entertainment, for regu lating the burning of gorse, for regulating disorderly houses, and clerks to attorneys and solicitors.— (Laughter.) They then came to the 22d George 11., for preventing excavations along the shores of the River Thames, for amending the laws regulating attorneys, for regulating the assize of bread, for making roads in the Counties Palatine of Lancaster and Chester, and to prevent the spread of infection amongst horned cattle. In the reign of Edward VI. it was laid down by the oracles of the law that an Act was not to be taken as dated from the day it was passed, but as dated from the first day of the session in which it was passed. An Act was passed by which it was made penal to import foreign goods of a certain description after the date of the Act. A man imported a quantity of these goods before date of the Act, but he was, however, prosecuted under it, and punished, although he imported his goods in February, and the Act was not passed until May. The case was moved upon a writ of error, to their Lordships' House, and the twelve Judges iu England were consulted, and they gave it as their opinion that the judgment of the Court in Ireland ought to be confirmed, and it was ;confirmed accordingly.— (Laughter.) This was a part of that which was termed the perfection of human reason. In the 13th yea r o f the reign of Elizabeth, of blessed memory, an Act was passed, declaring that any person sh ou ld b e li a bl e to ire prisonment who dared to take more than ten per cent. as interest of money. The clause ran in these words : " That forasmuch as all usury, being forbidden by the laws of God, is detestable, therefore be it enacted that all usury, that is loans of money with above ten per cent. interest, shall be punished in manner following— that is to say whoever receives a sum beyond that for interest shall pay it back upon action being brought." That law was in existence at this very hour. The judges in all cases in which it was attempted to carry these obsolete laws into effect were obliged to be mere instruments ; they were obliged to help the man who attempted to ensnare others in the meshes - of the law, to help him who in the heat of revenge had warmed the torpid viper into life and mischief. Whether a defendant made a foul defence, or the plaintiff brought a foul charge, the judges were obliged to aid them. The Bill which fie asked their Lordships to read a second time digested the criminal statute law, and unfolded the principles upon which that digest of the criminal-law was made. All the statutes, all the judicial decisions, all the definitions of the test books, had been carefully weighed and considered, and, from the light derived from these different sources, the enactments of this Bill, which he prayed them to pass into a law, had been framed. If they accomplished that great work, they would reduce into one digested body, luminous in its diction, clear and logical in its arrangement, symmetrical in its form, easily read, easily understood, easily remembered by the the counsel who were to subjectsadm inister, i whor, andha v e by to the b ey, by judges who were to decide, the s o whole criminal law of the country. They would, by so doing, confer on their country an inestimable blessing, and on themselves lasting renown, realising the wish of Edgar, the *Saxon King, that the laws of Britain should be bound up in small compass, like unto a faggot, that thereby they might be the better kept together—realising the boast of Bacon to his Sovereign, that he would do honour to his reign by a work useful to his country — fully carrying out the sentiments of the highest legal authority of these realms, the great Lord Coke, that a code of laws, digested, and methodized, and reduced to separate articles, as these were, was a work well worthy the age, and one which would confer lasting benefit on mankind—realising the wish of the first Stuart who had reigned in this country, who was the enemy to every innovation, and the friend to every established prohibition, who had said that such a work were worthy of the summoning of a Parliament to sit if it were only for that ; realising the wish of Sir Mathew Hale, the most venerable of legal authorities, who com plained in his turn of the unnecessary accumulation of law books, small as their numbers were in his day, but who had not lived to see the process of accumulation carried on as it had been in our times, but who had said, alluding to the comparatively small mass of law hooks existing in his own days, that it would be a work worthy of the Prince and of the country, to make one clear me thodical digest of the whole • doing a work which had occupied the attention of all Classes of statesmen, from Fursell, and Atkins, and Whitelocke, down to Barebones and Harrison, as a living k)nd of intellect, from the highest to the lowest, had felt the necessity of accom plishing this great work; doing a work, which both Houses of Parliament, in 1816, in an unanimous resolution, recommended should be done without delay ; and which the great criminal law reformer, the Prime Minister of the present day, had alone been partly able to accomplish, and who had said that high official station, and large official influence, was chiefly to be prized because it enabled those who possessed them to do such acts as these.—(Bear, hear.) The subject was so important that he would not apologise for having de tained them, but would beg of them to give the Bill a second reading, in order that it might be referred to a Select Committee up stairs. The LORD CHANCELLOR would not then follow his Learned Friend through his able, eloquent, and com prehensive speech; he thought the Bill ought to be read a second time. The Commissioners had been required to direct their attention-Ist, to a digest of the statute law; 2d, to a consolidation of the common law, as it re garded the criminal jurisprudence of the kingdom ; and 3d, to consider the expediency of combining the whole into one statute. They had considered it ex pedient so to do, and that was the foundation of the present Bill. There could be no doubt as to the ex pediency of that part of the Bill which digested the criminal statute law, and repealed those contradictory and abselete enactments which were a disgrace to the statute book; but with regard to a consolidation of the principles and rules of common law, he had thought it his duty to make inquiries of persons employed in the administration of justice upon that point, and the ques tion was one of so much doubt and difficulty that he should advise their Lordships to pause before adopting those suggestions. The principles by which the common law was at present administered were derived from the text hooks, and were applied by the judges to the circum stances of various cases as they came before them. Now, it required much consideration before he t could consent to subvert such a system, and ' substitute in its place fixed and invariable rules. He must be satisfied that those rules were so comprehensive as to embrace the whole of the principles of the system which it was intended to subvert. lie be lieved his Noble and Learned Friend would not admit the policy of abolishing the system, unless he were satisfied upon that point. He did not think that much benefit would be derived from sending the Bill to a Select Com mittee up stairs. He would advise his Noble Friend to have the Bill read a second time—to let it stand over— and early next session to have it re-produced. In the meantime, the Government would devote its attention to the subject, and persons would be employed, he hoped with the concurrence and co-operation of his Noble Friend—(" Hear, hear," from Lord Brougham)—to go through all the details, so that the country should have a sufficient guarantee that the rules would be comprehensive enough to embrace every case which it was intended they should meet. An other reason why ho wished for delay was, that the Commissioners were at this moment employed in examining a very important branch of this subject, he meant that which related to trial and procedure. In a short time they would have completed their labours, and the result would be that in the same measure they might be able to consolidate forms of proceeding—a most important branch of the subject. lie certainly thought the Bill was well entitled to be read a second time, for it was highly desirable that they should have a digest of the statute criminal law. Lord DENMAN expressed his concurrence in what had fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend. There was one object, however, of his Noble and Learned Friend's Bill which he thought ought to be accomplished without delay—he meant the repeal of those obsolete and barbarous laws, the continuance of which was a disgrace to the criminal code, and he trusted that what had fallen from his Noble and Learned -Friend on the Woolsack would not prevent any Noble Lord, nor any Member of the other House of Parliament from introducing measures for the repeal of those laws. A case had been alluded to in which a magistrate had been called upon to execute a law which ought at once to be repealed. A Noble Lord had also brought forward the case of the laws relating to forestalling and regrating—that was an important exam ple of evil legislation. Mr. Burke, in 1773, had brought in a Bill which was supposed to have swept away all those absurdities ; still it appeared there was common law enough left to punish any one carrying on trade in the way trade was usually carried on, as though he were guilty of a misdemeanour. The Noble Lord's Bill would also do away with those enactments which subjected those persons most unjustly to punishment who departed from the established religion of the country—laws which the great majority of mankind did not know were in existence, and of which those who were the most ig norant were the most likely is suffer by their execu tion. He was pleased to find that the attention of the Legislature had been directed to the consolidation and simplification of the criminal code. He was a little afraid, however, that their Lordships might be misled into the idea that they were now applying a most effec tual remedy to a very great evil. His Noble and Learned Friend had alluded to the great accumulation of law reports. Parliament itself had been accessory in some degree to that accumulation. It had passed a vast number of new laws of late years, in a great proportion of which the construction was by no means easy, and the interpretation anything but clear, and certainly of late years the judgments of the Courts had been reported much more fully and much more accurately than they had been formerly. But the decisions on questions re lating to criminal law formed the smallest portion of this accumulation. However, he considered that the passing of this Bill would be a great public good, and would remedy a pressing evil, by sweeping away from the Statute-book those dreadful, scandalous, and oppressive enactments, which would disgrace the law of the present day. Ile considered it his duty to state that, in his opinion, their Lordships and the coun try owed a debt to the Commissioners who had devoted so much time and so much labour to the improvement of the law of their country, and he considered that the pub lication of the law in this manner, digested under dif ferent heads, would be of the greatest use, not only to those who were called upon to administer the law, but to all who had to obey it. He could not conclude with out expressing a deep sense of gratitude towards the Commissioners who had been engaged in this investi gation. Lord CAMPBELL thought it was a disgrace to this country that they could not refer, through the medium of chapters and sections, to the particular crimes and punishments attached to them. This was a matter of great importance, not alone with respect to the statute law, but also as regarded the common law. But still he thought his Noble and Learned Friend near him (Lord Brougham) bad overstated the existing evils ; for the defect was, that they were continually multiplying the laws until at length they became involved in obscurity. In France every province had had separate and distinct laws, but that was done away with, much to the benefit of the country, by the Code Napoleon. As an illustras tion of his point, he would ask his Noble and Learned Friend, what could be more essential than to have a legal definition of the word conspiracy? He agreed with his Noble and Learned Friend who had just sat down as to the merits of the Commissioners. lie certainly did think that this was a measure which should be brought in upon the responsibility of the Government alone. After a fow words from Lord BROUGHAM in ex planation, The LORD CHANCELLOR saidhe thought it would be as well if the matter rested with the Commissioners, who had the best opportunities of becoming conversant with the bearings of the case. No persons could possibly have discharged a difficult and arduous duty more effec tually than they did. The Bill was then read a second time, and their Lordships adjournei. HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 13. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'Clock. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Mr. Thesiger) took the oaths and his seat for Abingdon. Mr. SCOTT MURRAY, who has lately embraced the Catholic religion, took the oath required to be taken by Roman Catholic Members on taking their seats. NEW WRIT. Sir T. FREMANTLE moved that a now writ be issued for the election of a burgess to serve for the borough of Launceston, in the room of Sir Henry llardinge, who since his election had accepted the office of Governor-General of India. Lord HOWICK said he understood that, by an Act which passed about two years ago, it was pro vided that a Member of the House of Commons ac cepting any Indian office, did not thereby vacate his seat. He (Lord Howick) wished to know if the Hon. Baronet was quite sure that the seat had be 311 vacated? Sir T. FREMANTLE said he had referred to the. Act which had been mentioned by the Noble Lord, and he found that Sir Henry Hardinge had, by his acceptance of the office of Governor-General of India ' vacated his seat. Sir R. INGLIS said the misapprehension of the Noble Lord had arisen from the office which had been accepted by the Right Hon. Gentleman being ono not under the Crown. Mr. M. PHILIPS said another question would arise, which was, whether the Governor-General could be considered as filling that office before he was sworn in at Calcutta ? The writ was then ordered. Mr. BELL presented a petition from the Sheriffs' officers of Northumberland against the County Courts Bill. DISSENTERS' CHAPELS BILL. Mr. GREENE presented a petition from a body of Dissenters, against the Dissenters' Chapels Bill. CORN-LAWS. Lord HOTHAM presented forty-two petitions, signed by 5,000 persons, from Yorkshire, against any alteration of the e3rn-laws. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. Mr. SHAW presented a petition from some clergy men of Dublin, against the national system of edu cation. THE WELSH BISHOPRICS. Sir ROBERT INGLIS presented several petitions praying for the repeal of the Act for the union of the bishoprics of Bangor and St. Asaph. Mr. KEMBLE presented a similar petition; but we did not hear from whence. ART-UNIONS. Mr. NEWDEGATE presented a petition from Warwick, praying the House to take measures to legalise Art-Unions. — Mr. MARK PHILIPS presented a similar peti tion from Manchester. Mr. WYSE presented two petitions to the same effect, one from Birmingham, and the other from the Midland Counties Art-Union. Mr. MILNES presented a petition to the same effect from carvers, gilders, and frame-makers. POOR-LAWS. Colonel LEITH HAYpresented a petition from Elgin in favour of Presbyterian marriages in Ireland. COUNTY COURTS-MORTAIAIN. Mr. WILSON PATTEN presented a petition from 718 persons at Manchester, against the County Courts Bill. The HON. MEMBER also presented a petition from a solicitor at Manchester, alleging that property was held in trust for Roman Catholic purposes, contrary to the statute, and praying to he examined before the Committee on the Statute of Mortrnain. _ _ _ Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented petitions from the National Complete Suffrage Union, signed by the President, Mr. Joseph Sturge, praying for Manhood Suffrage, Vote by Ballot, Repeal of Property Qualification for Members of Parliament, Equal Elec- toral Districts, Payment of Members, and Annual Parliaments ; also a petition from a public meeting of the inhabitants of Liverpool, signed by the chair man, Lawrence Heyworth, praying for an extension of the Parliamentary suffrage, and such other pro visions as may be necessary to secure a full, fair, and free representation of the people. Lord ASHLEY presented several petitions from places in Lancashire in favour of a Ten Hours Fac to- ies Bill. Lord CLIVE presented petitions from Montgomery against the union of the sees of Bangor and St. Asaph. NOTICES OF MOTION.—IRISH MUNICIPAL BILL. Mr. SHAW gave notice that in. Committee on the Irish Municipal Bill he should move amendments for the regulation of the boundaries of boroughs and. counties. ART-UNIONS. Mr. WYSE gave notice that on Wednesday next he should move for a Select Committee on the subject of Art-Unions. FACTORIES BILL. Lord C. MANNERS presented a petition from Tenby, in favour of a Ten Hours Bill. PRIVILEGE.—THE BRIDPORT PETITION. Mr. B. COCHRANE rose to state to the Hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford) the result of a communication he had received from Bridport in reference to the petition. He had requested the names of those who wore supposed to have signed the petition, to be forwarded to him, this had been done ; and it was distinctly stated that they were totally opposed to the prayer of the petition. He would read to the House the letter he had re ceived. It stated that Mr. Crawford had • presented a petition on the Bth of .March, 1844, purporting to be from the inhabitants of Bridport, praying that the supplies for the army and navy might be stopped till the grievances of the people were redressed. The persons who signed the letter, stated that they denied having ever signed the petition, or having authorised any person to sign it on their behalf, as the senti ments entertained were contrary to their opinions. They requested him (Mr. Cochrane) to bring the matter before the House. He did not know that it was of sufficient importance to do so, but he was bound to consult the wishes of his constituents. Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that he was now pre pared to give the lion. Gentleman some further in formation on the subject. He had that morning received a letter from a gentleman named Northwell, who wrote to him in consequence of what had taken place in the House on the subject. That gentleman stated that he got up and forwarded the petition ; he stated that he himself had witnessed the greater number of the signatures, but that a person was employed to carry about the petition, who was not at present in the borough ; he said he would make every inquiry on the subject, but was not aware of any person having signed the petition for another. With regard to himself, he thought the lion. Gentleman op posite was imposing too much on Members when he said they should inquire into the names of those who sent petitions to them. It would be impossible for him to inquire into the names of those who signed the petitions sent to him; but at the same time he was anxious that the petitions he presented should be in vestigated. WALES. Colonel WOOD wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department when it was the intention of the Govern ment to originate any Bill founded upon the report of the Commission which sat last year in - Wales ? Sir J. GRAHAM said a I3ill was in course of preparation, founded on the report of the Commissioners ; it was already in an advanced stage, and he hoped to introduce it next week. THE FACTORIES BILL.—MR. LIDDELL. Mr. LIDDELL said, however reluctant he was to take up the time of the House on a personal matter, yet he found himself so sharply attacked in the newspapers of that day—(Great laughter)— for a crime of which he was supposed to have been guilty, that he must take that opportunity of setting himself right, in a few words, with th e House and with the public.—(Laughter.) In the columns of the Times, he was asked if he could pos sibly he aware of the baseness of his conduct?— (Great laughter)—and the Morning _Herald said that he had not only made shipwreck of his own character, but also of that of his party.—(Roars of laughter from the Opposition benches.) It was all very well for Hon. Gentlemen to laugh ; but it must be recollected that these newspapers exercised a considerable in— fluence over the public mind—(Hear, hear)—and those were rather hard words to apply to a Mem ber of that House, who gave a perfectly conscientious and independent vote.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to take that opportunity of repeating what he had stated at the outset of the observations which he made on Friday last, that during the whole of the discussion which had taken place on that subject pre vious to that evening, he had never on any one occa sion, either by his vote or his language, given any person the slightest encouragement to suppose that he would support the proposition of a Ten Hours' Bill. ADJOURNED DEBATE—FACTORIES BILL. On the Order of the Day for resuming the ad journed debate on this Bill being read, Mr. M. MILNES said, that if he had been aware that any other Hon. Member wished to adjourn the debate, he would not have trespassed on the attention of the House on a question which had already been sufficiently debated. He desired, how ever, to have an opportunity of expressing to her Majesty's Government his regret for the words which he had used on a former occasion, in the heat of debate, and which, upon calm reflection, he thought were disrespectful. As far as those words were disrespectful, he begged to offer to her Majesty's Government, and particu . larly to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, the most ample apology. He was also most anxious to express to the House his adherence to a phrase which fell from him on a former occasion, a phrase by which, grave as it was, he was prepared to stand to—he meant the phrase, " The national guilt of the unrestricted factory system." He would ask the House to remember the words which were used by his Right Hon. Frieilid the late President of the Board of Trade, the Hon. Member for Taunton, who told them that, if their principles were just, they had incurred great national guilt by not en forcing them sooner. He would ask any Hon. Mem ber of that House who was familiar with foreign countries, whether the English factory system was not regarded by the whole of Europe as a great evil ? He would ask whether, in return for all the obloquy which we cast on America for her slavery, we were not told to look to our factory system at home, and to get rid of our white slavery, before we reproached them for their black slavery ? There might be, in that reproach, much jealousy of England and spite towards our commercial great ness. There was a time when our commer eial interests were represented as the factory system now was. Even the poet Cowper employed his talents to render our commerce odious. It was true that the cause of all that obloquy was our dealings in the slave trade, and did they not remember that when some of the best men of the country were labouring to procure the abolition of that trade, they were met by arguments and sta tistics to prove that all the great interests involved in our commerce would be destroyed. The same arguments were now used against the abridgment of children's labour in the factories, but he could not be lieve that they would not prove equally unfounded. Should that House, which voted 20,000,0001. of the mo ney of the country to procure the abolition cf slavery in our own colonies, arid in doing so risked the security of the great and ;important West India in terest—should they hesitate to abolish every trace of slavery at home ? But:what was slavery ? It was when a human being held his life at the will of another. Now what was life ? It was the living hour—it was the power of religious instruction and moral educa tion ; this it was that constituted the difference be tween the man and the slave. It became them, there fore, to remove the evils that were existing in factories with the same earnestness as they had set about re moving slavery. His Noble Friend had brought this question forward, because it was impossible by any other means that education could be given to the young in factories. They might do all they could to give education and recreation ; but if they continued the system that existed with respect to young people in factories they never could derive any benefit.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that labour alone was the property of the poor man ; he denied that—he had a property as well as others in the bless. ings of education and of life. The Hon. Member, having adverted to, several of the cases which had been quoted on Friday night by the President of the Board of Trade, observed that he con sidered that the Right Hon. Baronet might as well set up every tenth day as the Sabbath, as he might speak in favour of this measure. He considered his Noble Friend had made out an a priori case, and he believed no one, with the exception of the Hon. Baronet, the Member for the Tower Hamlets, was of opinion that the factories in this country were an Arcadia. It was a pity they were not so. Every one had agreed that, supposing wages were not diminished, there would be an advantage in the women and children of the working classes having their two hours each day. They had been met by the declarations of the unadvised ability of interfering, but that abstract question had been disposed of for ever, by the enormous majority of that House. The principle of protection had been admitted, and the question was how far it should go. It had been asked why they should interfere in this subject and not elsewhere. They were bound tointerfere because they had the power, and with the power in curred the responsibility. All legislation consisted of interference. He instanced the late interference with the operation of Art-Unions, and the stopping of the old system of lotteries. Again, the very violent, but very proper interference of the police the other night with the gaming-houses at the West-end. Was not that an interference with labour ?—(Great laughter.) It was an interference with policy if not with labour. In the present case it was the people who called on them to interfere. With respect to the effect of inter ference on wages, he understood that one of the largest firms existing in England had come to the conclusion that they could work their machinery sixteen hours a day by two relays of men of eight hours each, and that they would be enabled to make the same profits as they now did, and to give the same wages for eight hours' labour as they now did for twelve. The manufacturers might at first be unwilling to pay the same amount of wages when the time was re duced, but he believed they would do so in the end, and the labourers were themselves willing to chance the reduction of wages. If he had studied political economy at all—(A laugh)—he knew of how much importance it was to ascertain the limits of the subject, and that there were some questions to which it was inapplicable. If a reduction of two hours took place, it I would he of little use to the labourers if means were not devised by which they might spend them profitably; and he was confident that the eminent manufacturers of the country—such men as the Mar shalls, the Gregs, the Ashtons—would find a means of making it profitable to them. The importance of the foreign market had been dwelt upon, but from the improvements which were every day taking place in machinery, and the facilities which were af forded for its exportation, it would be impos- . sible for them to hold the exclusive market of the , world. If • the Government thought it of • such importance, why did they not take off the duty on raw cotton ? The Government had placed themselves in a wrong position before the country with regard to this measure. They were accused of inhumanity, and want of feeling towards the working classes, but how much was this at variance with the greet provisions of the present Bill ? By taking a different • course, they might have avoided placing themselves in such a position. Protection to the factory worker was now equivalent to a Ten Hours' Bill, and a Ten Hours' Bill they declared they would have. Petitions had been presented to that House against such a mea sure by 360 masters. What must be the feelings of the workmen towards those 380 masters who petitioned against them ? The Government declared they had gone far enough, and would not go any further. It would have been better for the Government to withdraw the Factories Bill than refuse to go further. But they knew the necessity for having this Factories Bill ' • they knew that all the assertions about non interference were unmeaning and vague, and that a Factories Bill was as necessary for the country • as any Bill which could be brought before the House. Believing, confidently, therefore, in the successful result of this measure, whether then or at some future period ; and agreeing with the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland that the people of England had never determined to have any great measure of a social or political nature which they did not ultimately gain, he hailed this Bill as the harbinger of a better system of legislation than had hitherto prevailed ; he hailed that confusion of parties which they then witnessed as something better than the banding of Honourable Mal hers for the purpose of misrepresenting their opponents. He saw banded together on that occasion a large body of men, who were more regardful of the social interests of the people than of any political consequences. He did be lieve that that Bill would lead to many im portant results. He did believe that if, on the question of the corn-laws, it were distinctly made out that the repeal of those laws' would be for the benefit of the mass of the people, the corn-laws would. be repealed.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.) He believed that that and all other great social questions which came before them would have , better chance of coming within the dominion of argu ment, and that the people would repose in that House such confidence as had never been reposed in it since the time of the Reform Bill. There was one - other subject upon which he would touch very lightly, on account of its delicacy. Some Hon. .Members had declared their intention of voting that night differently from what they had voted on other occasions. He was not going to make himself their censor; but he implored them to remembe r that in the opinion of the whole country they would • for the future be marked men, and that the factory question would henceforth be . regarded in con- • flexion with their names.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government bad told them that three months hence all those Ilon• Members who upbraided her Majesty's Governmen t with their obstinacy would admire ther firm" ness, and applaud their consistency. Now he believed that her Majesty's Government would regav with more respect those Hon. Gentlemen who held fa"' ,, , to their purposes, and maintained their principles , than those who, for the mere sake of saving them from some momentary inconvenience, should that night either remain away, or register their votes against the proposal which they had supported 00 former occasions. —(Hear, hear.) Mr. WARD said the Hon. Gentleman who ha d just addressed the House had resorted to a most eon; venient mode of settling this vexata questio. He hi" assumed that an a priori case had been made out ill favour of his Noble Friend's Bill. He said that men on both sides agreed that if the Bill could h e passed without reducing the remuneration of labour' or diminishing the wealth of the country, it O s most desirable that it should be passed. Why tha, was a truism in which Members on both sides 01 the House concurred ; but the question was, whe ther the proposed remedy would not aggravate the. evil? The Honourable Gentleman said the ques tion 01 adult labour had been settled by a majority of that House. Why the House had formerly decided that $ pound note and a shilling were worth 275. It had for' merly settled the wages of tailors at 23.51 d. under or dinary circumstances, and ss. 7&d. in cases ofmournini' But in six years this was repudiated as ' jurious to the interests of all. The Honourab le Gentleman opposite (Mr. Milnes) justified his at; dent desire to interfere, because the House hal! the power. But was it not necessary to look to the right before they exercised the power—(Hear) and ought they not to look also to the probable con' sequences ?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentlema n said that political economy was a ver y ill- use d scienc e —that few understood the proper limits which it should be res t ra i ne d. H e k new t h at t hi s _ques tion no longer admitted o f go i ng muc h i nto d e t a il. House was tired of it ; and for that reason, on a feri set tv ..! night, he was restained from replying to the argurlie rl . .,:" , on both sides of the House, although he had much P'", vocation to do so. His Hon. Friend the Member o _, t , Weymouth had reproached the political philosoph ei ; as cold-blooded theorists who treated men as if they wh o ,' mere machines, or as pieces of wood upon a skittle-boa to be knocked down as it they had no sense or feel —(Laughter.) The Hon. Member for Nottingham 5 . 1 that he hated long chimneys and political economy' voted three times in favour of the Bill, but now he en round and voted with him (Mr. Ward), being convinqi as he said, of his argument. That showed that he v. i . 0 6 `, 0 . first, and reflected afterwards.—(Laught e r.) The 0 0 , 0 Gentleman always ridiculed the th eor i s t s , b u t what theory, after all, but to consider, before you do l e thing, what its effects might b e ?--- 2 (Hear, hear.) Ba r had observed that those friends of h uman ity never c a _ o ried their principles beyond the point where they he to affect their own interests. Now, what was the ,p, sad first best thing to be done, for the working classe' tb e was it not to give them food ?—(Hear, hear.) Brit moment any attempt was made to render food e l le . and abundant, some one or other of those friends °five inanity stood up and said, " No, no, we cannoV•aufor that to ba touched." His Hon. Friend the Membe r ed Weymouth (Mr. Bernal) exclaimed, when they pr‘uY l rop to give the working classes cheap sugar, " Oh nefi 1 10 0 connected with the West Indies, and I cannot $ tha'f."--(A laugh.) Mr. BiERNAt-LI never said so. red,, were WARD—So, on the other side of the Hotteet h t e d,' were met by the cry, "Agriculture must be proteel mo 4 when they attempted to give cheap and abundan t 7,,a to the people.—(Cheers.) On a f ormer occa sion he 01 .4 accused the Noble Lord (Ashley) in rather strong " 0 , of misrepresentation and exaggeration, not thsi t e ft' " aggeration was his int en ti on , b u t because the rp.: , . ,„-. and dente the Noble fro L ordv m which ich na h tu e ral r e t n e o d ug w h was s ea co t n h t e i'l4 rad i ,toce , that was most in f avour o f hi s own views. Vevol'th-,4-' could be more contradictory than the evidence of c le f men, physicians, and lawyers. That was not to be to o dered at ; for you can prove almost anything by g e , ijo s, up a commission, and allowing a few clever phY 6 ' e D o' clergymen, and lawyers to manage it. ; There vi a° ( - 10" thing that could not be proved by a commission °oll quiry. He remembered that one medical man I_7f the , that the tailors were, as a body, liable-to nearly 41 ,,,0r diseases that could afflict humanity ; yet the tailors Oviere selves being indignant, proved that, as a body, theYished remarkably active, fond of athletic.games, and•forr e str , one of the finest bodies of men to , the armY. -- no gr ; I hear.) Other trades - were treated in the same Irs a nd :••• all were found to be liable to some peculiar mol atue- o .itter , he believed the healthiest were stated to be sloue' T his... house men and tallow melterS.—(Laughte r.) _,o s. showed they ought sometimes to distrust these 1- ' rwrt , li f They ought not to do anything to disgust anon 01 labour. He was far from wishing that the coieirit the people should not be improved; an d b e bel'ev hy w as was capable of improvement ;. but it more ill - r ameliorations of their fiscal system, „begat, the power of the Chancellor of the Ex,,,-. pie than a ten hours' clause in an Act of Parliarneciage", ' tory labour must be compared with that of other ci „,,...sas and it would then be found that there which had still stronger claims to protectioli,:ung lice , were oth er T here were the female nailers of Sedgeley, and the 3:,.,° at yibo makers of Buckinghamshire. Then let theta low t o st• ' was doing iu this town ; look at Bethnal- " g r c e , 1 :11 o° s Giles's, and other places ; look at the maids ir r __, be er y of the metropolis, who worked more then fotet_e7.tieter, a-day, and who had not the Sunday, whichnteo,reece_ o_ labourers enjoyed. He called the present i , ".,L, rc i . the , a lsi d o d_ b re: s w r ae h o b w illi t: Memberb lind andfeblunderingh had c e i benevolence. e e n n ce *r i s T a l y ie self to the commercial view of the subject, oP_" fal l in the his argument ? He admitted there would be 3 ii production and wages. But he said rwool d „i: ors amount of coal, and oil, and tallow, which coal P r " - , their quired. But, would not this affect the amount produced would be made unfro-mlosstb-7.: less m rket 1 ' u sed American - a us woollen manufacturers in the would be so would be the case, less cotton WOW(' have on of the north ? Would it not affect the price 0 . f as in ten hours than in twelve ? in conveying I motile every person employed art of it to . k t he articles of the country from one pa . 11.,,,, , to rl s barn were willing .er u effect on the shopkeeper and shiitp.ownert,hean:ta.pl_re. It was said that the workmen put fairly before them. The clergy h - e a that the c' t t he fore them. Dr. Hook represent fall of wages. He believed that poin a t pa n d ot n p e l l t p o n , question before them in a proper ig ellept let ter _o n rea d , would be an Arcadia. The on l y i Holly, rector of Bury, whose , "Lientienian e , tb claus e subject he would read. (The Hon- t h e working thst letter.) The general feeling of tetrtscoaisi wthrnic. Jiro. Y THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 14, 1844 61