The Sun. — London, England, 1803-06-28 00:00:00

was passing aw: y, and that was the . hest‘seeson for training and , xercising ;, that the Winter was un favourable for it, and that io frost and -snow the men. could not be %veil instructed in military exer. cise. lie had rather this Bill was liasied with speed, with some imperfections, than that any. time shottld be lost in bringing it up to a standard of theoretical . excellence. . , Me. SHERIDAN slid,. that with respeCl to the list, it had been admitted, that some, alterations must be made from the old one, that the-old one Would not do, for that it contained some exemp, lions which must be changed —now he should hope, , :4 * that the alteration 'of the list would not have the : 7 - tardy operation which seemed to have been so gene. -rally apprehended, The Right Hon. Gentleman, opposite to him (the SECRETARY at NVAR)i him . self, seemed at first to have thought that an altera-i lion ought taltave been made in the age ; for he, had proposed it from the age of ,t&to 60, instead of , 8 and 4s, which was the state of the old list. Now, be shOuld hope and think that this alteration in the, list would create 'no material delay. He really wished not to leave out of this levy persons above the age .of 4s, nor any of those, who were of.con. siderable property, but that they might be made to' find substitutes, and the leaving them out of the levy was a great &lea indeed ; yet if it materially' retarded the Bill, he should not wish to press it ;. ; but he could not, help thinking that nothing could ' be much more easy, than to instrtid the'Constables' of the Parishes to make our the- new list of 'those who paid to the Assessed Taxes 301. a year ; this they might do .feom the Tax Office. This was an easy operation, and would occasion no delay what.: ever. Colonel WOOD thbught it would be proper to reserve this primiple for, another measure, in which, property might be made the criterion, and it might : be fit to raise a Tax for that purpose, He did not: . approve of the idea of making the person who paid only 30!. a-year to: the Assoased Taxes'contribute as much to the New Levy of Men•as the.person: who paid tool. a-year to the Assessed Taxes—if one of them ooght, to find one Man byway. of Sub. stitute,:the other ought to find three. .. . . , The 'CHANCELLOR cf the EXC HEQU I? I! • thought that Gentlemen attached too much int.; . n uance to the i nc On ve nie n ee which would. e felt hy those who were liable to the chance of Ballot under th e Bill i n i ts present s t ate . The number! " 6 "' p ro p ose d to be raised by. ballot would very little' exceed .the Militia raised .in • the last War,; which were all taken from between the ages of 18: 'anCi 4.5. . kii.,ll A STARD expressed an aptireliension that In som e places there would not be enough . of mcit to answer the demands of the ballot---in 'some pa. r ishes he knew that bad been thought to be the laSe, • and if so,. the old list 'would net do. The C lIANCELLOR of the EXCIIEVER ebsers,ed, that f rom t h e ex p er ience of the last War, we were justified in expeCting that the capacity of. , the Country could furniili a m uch larger nundiet -.- than was liege proposed. We might look to the Tibt with increased confidence for producing. this number by ballot, becatise a greater number of Vo. : iunteers were then raised, who were entitled. to ex • eruption, than were now in that situation. 'These NOlnoteers limited the number to be ballotted in the '4m 'War. Such ,of them as had not been accepted ;:w94,1d not now : (iaa!plita t exemption, and therefore , the number of thOse who were, liable to be ballotted : tinder this Bill would be proportionably increased ; hut, hoWever,'petwer, might be given in particidar cases to amend.the Liit, in the, event of some dis. , *rift not being able to furnish its number. Out ,' what he chiefly,wished to impress ,on the considera , • • tion of the Committee was, that from the ballot from the age - of rB' to 45, there' was not a larger number called forth, or very little, larger., under ; this Bill, titan had - been ballotted for the Militia in ' 1 the coutse of 'the last War, when the mi t rilier 'ot sexemptions was greater, on account of Volunteers, than at - present ; and besides this, there were a • much greater number then in our Army and Navy than there are at present; so that, upon the whole matter, the risk of being drawn now :toss much less than it was at one period of the last War. Mr: 114.187:AR D said, lie did not mean to say that Ave could not get the media the Country, he only referred to the Lists of some particular 'districts which he had said must - be amended,. because there . 'would not be in them a sufficient number to au, wer ' the Levy. . , . -Mr. 'PITT said, he wished to add eme-obierva'. -lion to what he had already etated, which :was, to shew.how little loss there would-be to the. number., of the Levy proposed by the Bill in its present state, by foregoing the advantage of adding to , it all those who contributed) to, the Assessed !':arcs 301. a year.- Those of all ages who euntributed cu time A.e,seti i I '!'axes 301. a year and itpwarttt, were not above 1 I.or. , 1 3,000 in England: now he ‘vished G:n;le, men to consider how little they were likely to add to the number of 900,000 already 'stated to be liable, that was . to Say, those Above the age of so; and who paid this ,301. a year to the Assessed 'l ~ He-Oa - tight-that number so- inconsiderable, that it :,,. was so far from being as e qu i valent to the delay of v ly-.,0 week, that he hardly thought it Worth the present -,-„,..„:1-. vicH delay of the discussion of the Bills . 4- '.Sir 3 . /IMES SINCLAIR ERSKINE observe 4 '4,,..that•wilaterer..nuniber was draw n.heyand . the age .of ; *furry: fi ve, mtrst, in 'faft, operate to diminish the ( 'lumber of Substitutes (fur they must be alli upplied bY githstitutes), for hardly any could serve in pet. i . , unt after that age 4 -stelliat i oby-that. plan, we lost 1: as much one way as we gained in another. i Mr. ROSE observed, , that NI Point was now be ,. co!ttts so clear that it was hardly worth further dis. Iltiliort , There were other circumstances . which would make it into . ossible, 'in .many parts of the Country,' f or ' t h e Co nst abl es to k n ow who paid shaves 301. a year ' ro the Assessed Taxes ; becaus e '• v tnan Y persons- in the Country, having 'hous es . in tt.ouden,:paid their Assei s ments all in Town ; so that , ' the Constables in the Countiy could have. no means . 'of knowin g who were linder the head of 3al. a year to the A s s esse d Taxes, without a tedious-, eorreseron. : fence, which_ would defeat the principal purlicse of the Bill, that of Speed in the execu:ion.. - air. ER , 9KINS said, . that this was "thl.l-1, mar , • t., tGan a Bill for an increased Militia, andwloca the defence of th e Country called out.' Th is was a i . . I , , . measure of difinee . * pesea withat;iiny - departure front the Militia Law, and even if there was any departure, from that law, it did not from thence follnw that the measure should not he adopted; 'for in this - particular we 'slight huitate France, - if in nothing, else, by saying that at all,events the Coon.' try must be defended. It might be said, that the • Country will defend itself ; he had no doubt it might, but there must be .a nuchlus:; the proceedings of Parliament' were of , that charafter. He thought that no time ought to be lost—and•lt did not late to say, that lithe other House-took up as much" time as th 6 CoMmittee had bestowed upon this sub.. jea, that - would be time improvidently lost.— He doubted whether the plan which had been stated relative to the contribution was as efficient as it had been hitherto stated. lie was not pre. sent amenable- to the Militia Bill now before the Committee, hut he understood these were to be : other laws to i be brought forward, by which men would be called upon to contribute to the support of the State , in raising a Force according to their ,property, not as might appear by the Books of 'the .Collectors of Taxes he hoped; not according to the age of '45 or so, but in some better manner, and therefore he was of opinion that :the amend. merit propoaed ought not to he adopted. It was then determined by the Committee that the 014 List for balloti ng should be, abided by. The SECRETARY at WAR said, he was persuad ed upon re.corsideration, that his proposed amend. inents, as to the age and alteration of the List, were rightly rejeaed for the reasons already given. The Committee ' then proceeded upon the subjeft of Exemptions from the ballot, under the present Bill. Sir PuLTENey.observed, that alterations in the exemptions would necessarily do that which the Committee had already expressed its wish should not be done—namely, create an alter;tion in the List, and thereby impede the progress of the Mr. Icxstr4AlßD thought that the principle of Property,'its, a criterion upon this Bill, was now abandoned :—But if Peers of the Realm, and Mem bers of Parliament, and Judges, were made liable, he did not sec why i a class, of which he did not mean to Speak with disrespea. or irreverence, the • Clergy, should 'be exempted. Sir W.•Youtqc observed, that if the old ex. -emptions were not adhered to; new Lists must be :made, the inconveniency of which the Committee had already lel t. • • . Mr. W. SMITH thought the exemptions were a subjed deserving :of grave coniidetation ; but al.- though he Was aware there Was much abase in this particular, as persons becoming preachers for the put. pose of being exempted, yet it was,not to be forgot ten, that the Toleration Ail allowed it, and that Prd was not to be lightly touched. that of the Ex:cm sroo ER observed, the abuses in this respett were certainly very ,great ; he knew an instance 1,1 . a I l eatned Gentle. man, at the Head of his Profession at the Bar, being Attorney-General,, being drawn for the Militia, and whilehe was about to pay his floe. or provide 'his aubstitUte, he was told that he might be ex. Orierated for one, shilling, for that, he had nothing tci dO but to take out a Licence to Preach, A conversation was then carried on for a consi. derable time,. which ended in exernpting,the Clergy Of the Established chtirch,, and Preachers who had held a licence to 'prdcli at one place for twelVe tnonths before the aad of June instant. This was adopted in cOnfOrmity to precedent. • On 'the sobjeil of the exemptions of 'the Volun. :jeer Corps, the SgcRETAKY - itt WAR proposed also to fallow the precedent of the year 1196; that 'none should be exempted from. this Levy, whose set. 'vices had not been received on or before the 22A of this month, which produced 'a long conversation. The CHANCELIMROI the EXCI4EQU'r,R ObSert'CLl, that it had not been deemed. expedient for Govern ment dir determine what Volunteer Service 4 ,- uuld be atieepted until the sense of Parliament shall have been expressed upon tlutpresent Levy. Several Hon. Members spoke upon thIS and at considers's& length : it was propased r!)at the day should be altered from the 2ad to the 6th of this month, for that it was observable that since the apprehension of this new Levy, the VolUnteer Corps had beep greatly crowded ; and it w as -gene ialiy-expresied as an expeaation that nu Volunteer Corps Shall' be exempted unless some equivalent sloili , be given for the exemption, Such, for instance; as 'security-for coittiouance in the service, because otherwise persons' might intot themsdves in a Via. luntoei Corps until after the ballot was over,, and then discontinue such Volunteer service. It wad 'then agreed, that the .Exemption of the Volunteer Corps should take place only with reaped to those whose - services were accepted on or before the aid of this month. On Clause 1 ath, Colonel. CRAWrtiltyll suggested that the men bAI. lotted ought to be enrolledoo serve His Majesty in any Regiment • His Majesty chose to appoint tot that purpose. If the Prench landed, we must have an Arrny of old and .Regular Troops to oppose 'them, Or Otherwise they Might gain possession of London, by which the Country would •be placed in perare situation. A great number of Vessels were in a state of preparatioty ,the' Ports of Holland; which were manned With as `good- Pilots ..as the Trinity.house could afford, and the French had' the means of transporting t oo,opo men to this Coun. try. - He could iwt conceive what difference it could Make if the men ballotted for were plaCed ivy any Re. giment of the Line, provided the service of such. Regimentwas limited to Great Britain and Ireland, Guernsey and Jersey. • • , The SECRETARY at WAR, said, if the FlOn. , Gen. tleMan had'ivaited a little longer, he woUld-lutVe found that rite Bill . would have provided fat the l ,urposes he had alluded to. A power was to be given to His Majesty to plate the men raised under this Mt, in such Regiments as His Majesty. should think fit, provided such Regiments ghotilti serve only in Great Britain and Ireland, Guernsey, and Jersey. The men raised•under•this,Ad were not to be compelled to serve in any regiment enlisted for general' service, but it, waS-at their option- to enlist fur genera) service, iftheychae. & Mr. MAC N A CF ( T N iititi ) be could not sit. silent and hear it insihnAted tiuot if the French I:041 , 0 in possesion of •London, that the Coantry ‘a-lost, Whit if tTt did prissets thernselVeS P rjf - they did: nUt 'by that means obtailf finsessibo of our iron artd steel, or of the hearts of ttii Majesty's Subjeels, He hoped Iliac we 'should never make Peace until the French had tried the experiment. bf' InvatiOri; at present they held it la tirroremiover us ; let them try it, and if they did get ..to our coast, they would receive such a lesso r s that they would never come again. Mr. WINDHAM said, tint a great clamour had been raised against.him few days since, because he had ventured to bin at the possibility. of the French obtaining possession of LOndon-: he was . %happy now to hear something •in cOnfi;nuttion of that from the Hun. who had' lately. spoken (Colonel Crawford), and from the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat.down, whose sentiments, so similar to his own, had now met with approbation. If the thing was possible, it ought to be proVided against. Fie was glad to see them. r oused to acne 4 their danger, which seemed to past been wanting. This measure, tardily ,brought forward, was mit an answer to-what he had urged; he could not sec that spirit in the Country which was talked of; he rather Con sidered that there was a sort of apathy, which, per haps was in a great measure to be attributed to the want of confidence in. Ministers The CHANCELLOrt of the FAXC EQU FR said, the Right Hein. Gentleman (Mr.' W Dti Alq) 11:1d, idler giving sktnptoms of that apathy which he imputed to the Country, appeared to he roused by the sen. timetilsAtered by the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. MAC N4GII NI, anti had now discovered a simila. lit } , of sentiment; but the languar of the lion: Gentleman was that of animation, w hilst that of the Right lion. Geritletnan tended to ,despondency anti He 'gave 'the Right H. , n. Gentleman every credit for the warmth of his heart, and he was convinced that the Right Hon. Gentleman won't . ' make every sacrifice for the good of his Country ; but still he 'could nut help thinking that the language of the Right Han. 'Gentleman'tended to feed and pamper the mini of one who was already trio presuming, that of the Chief Consul of France, When the Rt.:lion. Gentleman 'tacked of the preSent , situation of the Country, he would ask, if when that,itight lion, Gentleman formed a part of the ~ Administration, he did not then thit , k that the Measures pursued were - inadleinate to the danger of the Country? With respiet to what Inni been said by the lion. Meer (- . 001. CRAW Voli.o .his Right' 1-ion. Friend had not said that the persons ballotted were to be compelled to enter into the Reginients of the line, but there wasnothing tdprevent them from entering into these Regiments. It had been said, that the French had the means of v:nding out a large" force- 7 —but were they therefore to take it for gianted that the Metropolis was in. imminent dieger'? . Was' there not a chance that the Arinarnents of the Enemy would he prevented from. teaching our Coasts, by the exertions Of our Navy ; anti if they did reach :our Coast, Was it too Sanguine to Suppose that by me4a of the large force we possessed, that the at tempt would be .rendered abortive, and be turned to the shame and disgrace of , the Invaders ? All , the Regiments deStined for the Coast, would be at their respen:ve destinations, ionic course of the' piesent we t *. kinder the. vesent .cireumstances'. of the Country, he should held himself criminal, if any thing was left to ehance or accident ;. he did not attempt tu.under-rate the danger,'bot he wagsurelY justified in placing a confidence in those great MCalls of defence, .with which we were now provided, and which Were greater than at any former period. • - General TAO, ET() detendcd aloe conduti of Mi nisters, who, he conceived, had provided the best measures for the, defence of . the Country. The Clause 'was then agreed to. 'On Clause 19, relative to the limit of service, Mr. SUE It I DAN said, he did not understand why. the Islands of Guernsey and were included; it was going. far beyond the usual ;.vrlilitia Laws, and, he thought they had better he left out. The S g caliyAßY at ,WAti'said, that extending t he service to Ireland Was an extensionlar beyond the; customary Militia Laws, and- as Jersey .and Guernsey ,formed part of flis Majesty's dominions, he thought they had better be included. Mi. PITT said, if he recolleaed righr , the mi. litia were enrolled for five yearg, and he'could not see why the period of service,rmtler the present.Biii should not be as lOng as,thelormer.. The greatest. inconvenience might arise from the necessity of dis. banding a large, force in the, middle of a War, in consequence of their term of ber vice king expired. Tim Sulistitutes, he observed, were to be enrolled for four 'years, oruntil one month after the ratifi. cation of a Definitive Tre:ity of Peac;:., . This pe. rood he thought toil short, and- part iculariy 'after the experienCe they had had, lie was of o , , , ininn that the period. of service ought to Le. CN,terideti mouths after ' the , ratific.ition of :,Belt rive 'l reaty. lie hoped time a sub,equent Peace would be more perament Jhan th,: former, bur he was not sanguin'e%enough to ~ , :ippose, that we should not require inoch Miltiory Pt,• ar:i. tions in the, event ul Such a Peace than at any f:J. mer period. If die period of :my totoft• was employed in providing SupplemoOtary Recruits our Army , a, we had done fur Our iViihtia, insw,ul bfbeing cOtuirelled, as we were now, either front the shortness. of the interval, QC froal other cir, cumstancei, to discusi r\pedieli, which did not admit of delay, 'it would be hiuhly advantageous tp the Country. Ike Se It ET A: at :WAR. said, ilLe .retmm inchi t :cd Covernownt to litnit the peri.(l . of service in the way prop . oSed, was the r,xten,ion : 6l the idtbees of, service, in consequence cot w !rich it was tin dtiiiiicable , to decrease. the duration of the iery He had, h,weVer t no. objeftion ro,. alt er ing the .term of. Service. to ,si,x - toonttry after the RatificatiOn' of a Definitive Treaty of Peace. Mr. NTT said, he did .not zee the necessity of the distikti on taken between Balittted•Men and Sub titutes with rePed to the period of service • • • at any rate, if su c h a d . isttnaton was though t TtettCS,'. nary, 11C,Was of opinion that a new Ballot ought to t t alc pret place Wert: before rdisiarc t i ho g t i : O S4 terms nf service were x The SECRETARY at WAIL rideSSea hitt adheteaCe to the old Militia system, by which a distinEtion bad been adopted between the, periods of service of .44110,tted Man and -StAw.itutes. rb‘ :'— c hopes — 1 Pzrrtist measures would be taken to prevent any inconvenience reWlt_ iog from it. After a few words from Goneral NORToN and Sir G,ILBERT HEATHCoTE, the Clause was avern to, with an amendment extending the period of service for Substitutes to six months after the Ratification of a Definive Treaty of Peace, and leaving th•.! oath to be tiik,en by Substitutes to be amen l ied trt wwards,. (...14the 21, alintving Parishes to raise Volan. tCerit iNlr. cr Otreryea, that by that Clause Parishes were allowed to raise VOlanteers at lair guineas per man, while by another clause, half the current price of Sub.titures . WAS to be returned ui persons pro'viding,th;:in, and thus it might .happen that 14 . 111 .the .price, then allowed might amount to more than the four guineas. The SEC)CETARY at WALL proposed an anwnti_ men to meet the objeAion, that Parishes should not give more than the average price. 'the ClauSe, thus amended, was agreed to. Clause. 31 relative to the reclaiming of deserters, was amended by inserting one month instead of two, the Parish in all such cases toprovide men to fill up the vacant:its occasioned by such deserters being re. claimed.—Agreed to. O Close 33, respeding the formation of the mcn raiseS,under this Att into Regiments, Bltta. lions, 4c.. General MAITLAND suggested the propriety of an itendment, ?otnable His Majesty inure phce those.men in regular Regiments, The SE a ET, R Y at WAR, observed, that the ClauStgave I Its Majesty the power of assigning the Regiments in which those men should be placed. Mr. SnElti DAN collet - IM' it %va4 ItOt intended by this measure to fill up all' the regular Itrgtment s , Mr. PITT said it entild not be intended ,t all the regular Regiments with the men raisettunilor this ACS, as in any Regiment in which any of those turn might he placed,: however small the numbei, that regiMent would be necessarily colifieil to :a lirnited service. It appeared to hint that it 'must be left to Uis Majesty'..s discretion to'fix what gitoent or new:Battalion these men should he irtaceil in. TheSEC It ETM: Vat W\ k said th a t this. Clause save His Majesty that pawer. Mr. 1)11 . -r observed thay this measure shnuld not he coupled with,an idea of Regiments for gencriloi service, as that might tend to excite tau. favourable to the measure, in,the.Country. The Clause was then 'agreed to, with lin Amend. men moved by the SECRRTNRY at•WAtt, His,Majesiy more. distinctly the power tit th4ti, g the men so raised into existing gegiments,in form- ing them into new Battalions. . The. Clausc telative to the punishment of Dcser_ ters from the Troops to he raised untie's' this At, nn the suggestion of General MAI rt.ittio, who objetted to milking the entrance into the Rep: Lir herviee a punishment, left our, as wits also that respthing the Cinque emu. The other Clauses 'were then gone through, and agreed to. The : Sectt mkt; Y WAIL, then brought up et Clause, ordering , new lists to be made out when .ab. solutely necessary;. and a Clattie, enacting that her. sons •of the height of s feet 2 inches should net he registeredi which Were- sever,dly agreed to, as tu gs ako another Clause rest ~ 4ting the exemption of Vo. innteers attending musters regularly, as he heinrc stated. • The SP CR P.I'ARY :it ‘‘r:Llt also brought up ano. ther Clause, which he sail had been suggested to him by some..Ciltitlemen in the West of, •Englind, by which Parish Apprentices might }flared in the hallotring hire, arra the names of their MASi r erased.; and in case they were not hallotteil, they might be allowed to enter into the - Regular Rogi. inents. . . . Mr. Kt ti.r.N itr) ObiCaed to the principle of it as tinc.institotiontil, Mr. PITT' also objeCted to the Clause. coull not sce the ohjeCt, tie said, of withdrawing the name of the Masters fir the purpyse of insetting that, of the Apprentice. , . Col. BAsTAao said, that only' the Masters could he hallattedat present, an.l it ions immaterial ther it was he Master or the Apprentice. The .CltAticet.Lott of the ExottEqurtß ,also strongly ohje4led to :the Clause; which was nein:. - , The SECRETARY at WAR theri • brOUght' up. alto. ther Chutie,. increasing the fine when like potty ballotted i did not verve or find a.Sobstituti,- in pro., portion to the Assessed 'fa,tes. paid by such hutivi. dual, and at tl3C(lisc,retitmot.tlle•Depty.Litiltellant. Mr. SHERI DAN uhfetled strongly to the Clause, which lie ,t to ugli r.,was..iiniust ,An 4 tended to vest .in improve' discretion in the Deputy Lientenanr. Mr. PITT suppottrd the, Claw. _When it was considered, -he said, how many.persons of , property there,were who did ninpy to the . l.lsessed TaXe . s l he did net dila any injury could arise from resting such 4. discretioe in...the Deputy • Lieutenant. ff they measured the principle of property in the pre. sent Bill, - whilst at the same time they . wartted - lbt men,. it was to be considered .how they could heir enforce by the Inagriitude of 'tlie,fine that personal atlivi.ty which wai best calcdtteci'to provide' tlin Substitutes. which were wanted. Sri E. 14. 104 N rep...lied his Ohiet4ions. Mr. POI.II CAREW aild • Mr. W also tvposett the " • - Sirl. PUL7EIIIIIC said a few words. Mr. IL .13rtowril. aware ,that due regard should be paid to consi Lcations of property, but tprrelieuilea ti degree of•incOnveniency would arise under the Clause. The property of the' , Country certainly ought ,to be awakened tn. a s defence, anti should be made proportionally to contribute, towards the formation of ,the army in question. The ATTORNIti" . -GENESAL was apprehensive the, proposed regulation would tend to increase, the price of Substitutes, and .thereby interfere with the °raking not only of the Army, but with the Sap. ply of the Army. Mr. PITT ShOttlyeXpteSSell h is opinion, that it would be preferalile the penalty should remain' as is was.before : .the propoed power was one which he thought it might be dangerous to allow. Sctnc Amendments were then made in the Clause.,