The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-19 00:00:00

...-------°° EDIT. : h 18. of - _ hop ears ; but it must be granted, that in this case the had l et's of the stock were entitled to some bonus. They . hod received no bonus by any increase to their capital, h o w hen it w as cons id ere d th a t the r e w ere 81,000 loti er s of this stoek, whose income did not exceed 4e a 3'ear, as tirey had no bonus on their capital, it b al ed but fair and reasonable that theyshould have such s t ,, °4llB as that which was granted to them by this mea hade• In respect to wh at his Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) onelaid touchin g th e di m i nu ti on o f th e c h a rge of the le debt, that statement was, no doubt, an accurate No ' and afforded a strong proof of the high clia year 'r and cr e dit • o f t hi s coun t r y. I n th e lic: 1829 he had himself called the atten th of their Lordships' House to that subject. Between th e Year 1815, wh en th a t c h arge was a t it s hi g hest, and charge had not been less than 4,000,000/, representing ca Pital of 130 000 000/ Since that period other the n, 7 • c ;" 0 115 hod taken place; and, making allowance for t o , 4, 0 ,000,0 00 / . requ i re d to carry i nto e ff ect t h e measure tile abolition of slavery, the reduction in the charge t h - an the funded and unfunded debt was considerably more ~ 4,000,000/. annuay. This showed most clearly L 4 sat isfactorily, that while: hey scrupulously respected ood f • .aith, they were enabled from time to time, to get t ° l some portion of their debt. le rd AIONTEAGLE wished to add one word to t o t a h t had fallen from him, and give his meed ofraise at part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's plan h s c h went to equalise the payments o f he dividends. .1 his called for out of doors, nor had it any necessary th e ~e x ion with the plan itself ; but having regard to lo o k",, ur reney, and the engagements of the . country, he trj,, Upon it as a measure fraught with the highest T a k ntage to all classes of the country. Th r ue two Bills for the reduction of the two classes of hae-and a-Half per Centum Annuities were then a second time. se , eri llPetv i t. P h " Th e earl of FITZWILLIAM said, he had to pre ka,,• ' to th e i r L or d s hi ps a pet i t i on signed by the Chair on behalf of what he understood to have been a pits large meeting of the inhabitants of in t g° l ; praying their Lordships to take the° their consideration the points to which f ol alluded in the course of that petition. They th., 4 ; l ed their right of addressing their Lord ellgis.on the state of that country, which they said blid" lt ed, a great number of features indicative of the eon . '"ueY which had been pursued with respect to that nt• ry. They urged that that policy was the to excite the utmost contempt for in" existing laws and institutions and a grow- It hatred of all connection with Great Britain. eoncluded the petition with one remarkable pro st,:lion on whi c h h e . would say a few words. They pl 4 ,d that one pr i nc i pal gr i evance of wh i ch I re l an d com it4ed was the Established Church, which was not only kj,, e rant and exclu s i ve in s pi r it an d c ha r acter, but op tli4" to the conviction of a great body of the people, ti n ,, it was use d as a tool of political fac -0,4-'1 and subversive of gener a l t ranqui llity. That such th:'tahlishment (and this was the i m p o rtant part of th at r proposition ) did not admit of being amended, and it must, to obtain the pacification of Ireland, be ti:' 1 7 abolished. Now, his opinion of this section of th, Petition was entirely different from that of o t , 1 „, Petitioners ; he was by no means of lf s i l lon that the cluirch of England ought •to be abo- Cl ih ' in Ireland'; on the contrary, he thought the teen of England in Ireland ought to be made more it t for the only true purposes for which the - "pt exist. He believed that England and - tngliSh Legislature had been guilty of of Irat crime in depriving the great mass of the people I.Q lv a eland of the mea of spiritual instruction and 7 4 1). It had been ens a great crime in the English s lature, that they had proscribed the Catholic eEiThipod, and deprived them of the means of properly ;tril rating religious service in that country. It was not, of t j t P B l the crime of the British Legislature alone, but of,",*? great growing power of the British community, meh those in office were only the administrators. ti a w aa told that a proposition of supporting a Catholic ktp.would be distasteful to the English people—the I,4h,c)ilea themselves would not agree to it—that it 7, excite the hostility of the Dissenters of England, raft that of the Presbyterians of Scotland. Now a man ho pr With many things distasteful to him between the * 4 , or his birth and the hour of his death. A nation his hot exempt from the fate of individuals. The q e ,,°ters of England, the Presbyterians of Scotland, (44 the Irish Catholics might have to do many things „,r, t ejui to thom—even the Church of England itself , be brought to feel that there might be something i s , more disagreeable than being brought to give up al); e small portion of that which had been hitherto lZ t° Priated to that sect, of which the Right Rev. Pre 1' were the ministers and ornaments. Notwithstand ehe rebuke he once received from a Right Rev. Pre kit he must persevere in saying that the Church of uth'and was but a sect—the Catholic Church was an of :r - --the Presbyterians of Scotland, the Independents thZ i tland, were all sects—and perhaps it might be a ti c ;; l 7 pill for that sect which had hitherto been the )4 1 . 111 ant one, to feel that the time was not far distant Vi,l l Some portion of those resources which had been ap tit;:` to itself alone, should be app ro p r i a t e d, in a ce r t a in th r ee, to the maintenance of other establishments. He 4i,ellt it was quite chimeric a l t o t a lk o f ma ki ng th e b ey ". priesthood stipendiary. Such a project would tto. There would be rumours abroad which were 14%;,„Y to impress upon some minds such a belief, but he p e4 7, B ted against making the Roman Catholic priesthood th t :°, l lers. If anything Was to be done, it was that C kt i, B ,,tkould place the Protests it rector and the Roman tt o .," 1 : 41 0 priest upon the same grounds, and give both an t; 1 interest in the peace and well-being' of the coun hrtiguiand that the former should not assume airs to er es i r While the other must be conscious of his la t e,;itY• What he wanted was to give a perfect 40 4 '7, to the two great _sects, and be could see m a t difficulty in accomplishing this. - When it was ll iih ered that daring the last' 150.years,:the eccle clitzwal property of Ireland had heen entirely confis erCl' R .,,and taken away from those who held it 11 7; and applied to other purposes than its N o „..N°l 3 eses, there was no man in the House so ,Of n a r y as to suppose that this exclusive Church 4 1 1,1 eland would ever convert the people of Ire did Such a vision was foolish, but if it ever k o resent itself for a moment, he thought it must very colt m ue banished, by reflecting on the years which have *4" en, and the generations which have passed away, %, th Olit the slightest alteration in the state of the !it (l ie religion of Ireland. On the contrary, 4 ,t4 ; _e present moment, the Catholics of Ireland „eid t rreased in numbers in a much greater ratio than Ito, v ",'„ 4 Protestants. If any inference could be drawn ,bt hhe did not mean to do so—it would laki - It the though of the Established Church in Ire ,ealQ,A..' 80 far from increasing Protestantism, had been J,4sti t 7ted to increase the other sect. He thought that -e to Ireland required . that they should no er ifSY Rupert take possession of the whole - ecclesiastical ve - toli The I „,Y of Ireland, and apply that property to %! t fe use and benefit of one sect, and that sect 1 . 0 44‘,40et wealthy and most able to provide them ' j o 0 Bereaa with the ministrations of religion. Until b e "ado" was something like a fair and equal It "ado" of the Church property, there could A ~11 ° pace or happiness in that country. 11* - 4ht not be done this session, it might not be done t lnii; t, but they might depend upon it that the people count r y, even the most prejudiced of them, must t,,Z IB II P their minds to do something on this subject. gw ei i, t he Roman Catholic question in another form. had years might pass away, but still it must be done. heard certain wise men, or perhaps he might t ki o4l B eacres, who had said that at the time of the etti ti " Roman Catholic question ought to have been Vesti o °ll e way or the other. Now, there were certain ok a ,„ l ls Which could only be settled one way, and the Catholic question was one of them ; and the hil,_question also was of the same sort. He hem to maintain the - Church of England in Ire -401.t4 present state. He wished to see the Protest 'lKion maintained in Ireland—he wished to \ e Protestant parishes maintained—he wished the property of those parishes main• and applied parochially, He would have Ido with spoliation, nor with taking property `!ommunities, to throw it into a sort of bodge ,e dealt with by the executive Government. tial to the cause of liberty that these minor should be maintained. That which he de me might be easily done, if men would but prejudices. He was no repealer, and he lgland and Scotland would not find an rent in favour of repeal by refusing to -eland. What he wished to see done the Church of England in Ireland, strengthen its foundations. He had "Lis sentiments on the subject, and -Resenting the petition. :LINGTON thought that nothing '?.nient than raising a discussion of mere presentation of a petition, "Lich the Noble Lord had entered state of the Protestant religion compact entered into for its red to the whole foundation of 9untry. The Noble Lord had s particulars of which he was neither was he certain as to carried into effect, nor of results ' • but it went to the ch the Reformation in this took the opportunity of they introduced measures hey went not only to do country, as it was esta nation, but to the sub 'on which was founded laintenance of which anion was interested. to encourage those 'e laws upon which egged them to re- Id existed over a 0 years. It was ury of constant struggle for the Its maintained ‘leir Church. century, op descriptions, period of ver to con at Church it Lord id never aiplored tion in - 1 their )t de `,h as -red en THE SUN, LONDON, TITESDAt MORNII4G, MARCH 19, 1844, to none of those petitions or speeches, which tended to the injury or destructiom of the Protestant Church of Ireland.—(Hear,. hear.) Let them do whatever was ne cessary to render the Church more beneficial, as a whole, to the people of that country.—(Hear, hear.) He entreated them again to adhere strictly, and accord. ing to the letter, to .the compact entered into with the Irish Parliament in the Act of Union.—(Cheers.) The Noble Earl said he was aware that that was the feeling of the people of this country, and he (the Duke of Wel lington) hoped that would be their opinion as long as there was a spark of honour in this country.—(Hear.) The Noble Duke concluded by again exhorting their Lordships not to allow any infringement of the Act of Union. Earl FITZ WILLIAM thought the Noble Duke had misapprehended him. He did not think that he had said anything from which it could be inferred that he meant to overthrow the laws on which the Reformation was founded. He had only said that the parochial funds should be applied to the payment of the Roman Catholic as well as the Protestant clergy, whether in the Barony of Ballysaxe, or any other Bally.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The speech of the Noble Duke reminded him of the speeches he had heard before about the Coronation Oath, and other fine things, which they were not allowed to touch. He put the speech of the Noble Duke in the same category ; and notwithstanding the Noble Duke's warning he thought the time would come, and many of their Lordships would live to see it. when with the Noble Duke himself, or some following the stepi of the Duke in 1829—he had no more doubt of it than that he was at that moment standing in that House— an arrangement would be made for paying the Roman Catholic priests.—(Hear, hear.) So that the warning of the Noble Duke had not the slightest effect upon him.—(Hear.) The Bishop of EXETER tendered his sincerest thanks to the Noble Earl (Fitzwilliam) for having made a speech which had drawn from the Noble Duke (Wel lington) near to him an address which entitled him to the gratitude of Protestant Christendom. Yet he must say that the subject itself had come,upon him somewhat suddenly; for in the usual notices of their proceedings it was stated simply that the Noble Earl had to present a petition on the subject of Ireland; and, not contented with this, he had rambled into the state of Ireland and of the Protestant Church there. The Noble Earl said he would have nothing to do with the spoliation of Church property ; he would not centralise it, but allow it to be spent where it was derived. And how spent ? It was, according to the Noble Lord, to be divided be tween the Roman Catholic priest and the Protestant rector, or rather the Protestant rector was to be stripped in order to endow the Roman Catholic priest. The Noble Earl seemed to treat the question of spoliation lightly, but spoliation might assume a very formidable character, and that even to the senses of the Noble Earl himself. Suppose those Noble Lords who had been en riched by the hand of spoliation, years and years ago, were called upon to disgorge, in order to supply the wants of the poor in the very parishes where the spoliation had taken place, how would they like it ? In the Noble Earl (Fitzwilliam) him self ; in another Noble Earl near him (we believe the Earl of Besborough was alluded to), and in the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) also near him, he saw three Noble Lords who occupied a much larger portion of confiscated property, than did the Church itself in any of the three counties where their estates were situated. —(Laughter.) And those were the individuals who talked so loudly of justice, and so loosely of spoliation, and whose estates had been granted to them by the same sacred and inviolable law, that had awarded the pro perty to the Protestant Church ! He admonished the Noble Earl to be careful of his sayings. But he would not only be his monitor—he would venture, on this occa sion, to assume the character of prophet ; and in the spirit of prophecy, he would say that if spoliation was made on Church property, spoliation on private property would speedily follow. He tendered his humble and most heartfelt thanks to the Noble Duke, and he (the Right Rev. Prelate) believed that of all the services which that great man had rendered to his country, he had never conferred greater services on it, than he had that night.—(A laugh.) The petition was then ordered to lie on their Lord ships' table. Lord LILFORD presented a petition from the opera tive silk weavers of the township of Leigh, praying for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into their case. He would move for the appointment of the Committee on Friday. Lord FEVERSHAM presented a petition, but neither its object, nor the place whence it proceeded, could be heard in the gallery. Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter to Seven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 18. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Pour o'clock. Mr. BUSF EILD presented eleven petitions from places in Yorkshire, in favour of the Leeds and Brad ford Railway Bill. On the motion of Mr. R. HODGSON, the Mem bers for Berwick were added to the Committee on the North British Railway Bill. The Northern and Eastern Railway Extension Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com • mitted. On the motion of Sir H. DOUGLAS, the Liver pool Fire Prevention Bill was read a second time. Mr. HAVES` moved the second reading of the New British Iron Company. Sir C. DOUGLAS hoped the Hon. Gentleman would postpone the second reading of this Bill for a few days. After a short discussion, the Bill was read a second time. The Globe Insurance Company Bill was read a second time. LOCAL COURTS. Colonel POWELL presented a petition from Wales in favour of the establishment of local eourts. CORN-LAWS. Sir A. LEITH HAY presented a petition in favour of the corn-laws, and particularly against the sliding scale. TOBACCO DUTIES. Mr. M. GIBSON presented two petitions from the tobacco consumers of Manchester against the high duties on tobacco. COAL DUTIES. Mr. S. WORTLEY presented petitions from the West Riding of Yorkshire, praying for the repeal of the export duties on coal. THE SUFFRAGE. Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from lied dington, Northamptonshire, praying for a redress of grievances, and an extension of the suffrage. PRISONS IN SCOTLAND. Sir GEORGE CLERK presented a petition from the Corporation of Musselburgh, praying for an amendment of the law relating to prison discipline in Scotland. REFORM.-THE RATE-PAYING CLAUSES. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from Islington, praying for the repeal of the rate-paying clauses in the Reform Act. The HON. MEMBER presented a petition from the Tower Hamlets to the same effect. MERCHANT SEAMAN'S FUND. Mr. HUME presented a petition from Montrose in favour of the Merchant Seamen's Fund Bill. The Hon. Member moved that the petition be referred to the Select Committee on the Bill.—Ordered. CORONERS' FEES. Mr. BANKES gave notice that he would to-morrow move for returns of the amount of fees paid to coroners in England and Wales in the years 1830-31-32, and 1840-41-42. JURISPRUDENCE IN SCOTLAND. Mr. WALLACE gave notice that instead of the motion for a Committee to inquire into the state of jurisprudence in Scotland, he would to-morrow move for the appointment of a Royal Commission. IRELAND—THE ARMY. Sir G. CLERK laid on the table numerous returns relating to the cost of the Commissariat, and the number of men and officers recently employed in Ireland, in consequence of the repeal agitation, In answer to a question from Mr. F. FRENCH, Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that Mr. Mathews had been appointed a provincial auditor of poor-law accounts, with a salary of 500/. a year. The ap pointment had been made under the last Act, the provisions of which it was the intention of the Go vernment to carry into effect. CHARITABLE BEQUESTS. Sir H. W. BARRON moved, according to notice, for "Returns made into the office of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests since 1830, specifying name of testator or donor, particular diocese or court. Number of bills filed, or actions or other suits instituted, in any Court, in each year, specifying the time of filing bills or com mencing actions. Number and particulars of cases prosecuted to conclusion, or settled by compromise ; the amount of money realised, and the taxed costs or expenses deducted. Number of cases where the Commissioners have interfered, and recovered or ad ministered any funds or property without . cost, with the amount and expenses. Am oun t o f sums vo t e d by Parliament, in aid of the Board of Charity, since 1830. Number and names of the counsel for the board in each case, and amount of fees paid to counsel in each case and every year. Number of cases in which suits instituted have not been prosecuted to a final decision or termination. Number of cases in which the Board of Donations now administer the funds; compensation by way of agency. Sums in progress of recovery. Sums in each case recovered and the expenses, compar tively. Sums now invested in the names of the Commissioners, and specifications of annuities and charities now under the consideration of the board. Specification of the number and particulars of the charitable donation and bequests which appear to have been devoted to Roman Catholic schools,in stitutions, or charities. The number of meetings in each year, for the last five years, held by the Commis sioners; also, the names of the Commissioners present at each meeting. The total number of Commissioners, their names and occupations. Return of all communica tions between the Commissioners and the Rev. Mr. Birmingham, of Ballysaxe ; also his answer to the same respecting a legacy left to endow a school at said place. Copy of that part of the will of the per son -who-left said legacy, as far as relates to said be quest. Amount of all costs incurred in all case since 1830. Names and particulars of cases, when pro ceedings commenced, what progress made, and when terminated. Amount of the principal moneys in dis pute, and costs deducted in each case."—Ordered. VICTORIA PARK. In answer to a question from Sir W. CLAY as to the progress made in the arrangements for the forma tion of the Victoria Park, The Earl of LINCOLN said that the whole of the ground intended to be included in the park was not yet in the possession of - the Government. The site of the park would occupy 262 acres : of these 179 were in the hands of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, and the remaining 83, which belonged to six proprietors, remained unpurchased, because the Commissioners were of opinion that the price demanded was an extravagant one. The usual steps, however, would be taken to ascer tain the value by a jury. They did not think it ad visable to commence the formation of the park till the entire of the land was in their hands. It would be in their possession before autumn, when the neces sary steps would be taken. In reply to a question from Sir V. BLAKE, who was quite inaudible in the gallery, Sir J. GRAHAM regretted that the Hon. Baronet had not given him some notice of the ques tion. He understood the document which the Hon. Baronet had read to have reference to that portion of the poor-law which caused the removal of poor Irish who had made settlements in parishes in England to Ireland, where they had no settlement, and complaining of such a state of things. All he could inform the Hon. Baronet on the subject at pre sent was, that it would be taken into consideration under the proposed New Poor-law Bill. Sir WALTER JAMES asked the Hon. Baronet whether he had taken pains to authenticate the state ment which he had read to the House. Sir V. BLAKE said he had received his informa tion from a gentleman of the greatest respectability, whom he had known for several years. FACTORIES BILL-COMMITTEE-AD JOURNED DEBATE. On the motion that the Order of the Day for going into Committee upon this Bill be read, - Lord HOWICK presented two petitions from places in Yorkshire (as we understood) against the ill. The Order of the Day having been then read, The House went into Committee; Mr. GREENE in the Chair. On Lord ASHLEY'S amendment being read, Mr. WARBURTON said the question was one which involved the interests of the whole of the manufacturing prosperity. It had been stated to de putations which had waited upon the Government that they intended to adhere to the printed Bill in its main provisions, that Bill having been cir culated for a long time through the whole of the manufacturing districts ; and the deputations quitted the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham), with a firm belief that the Government meant firmly to resist the application for a Ten Hours' Bill. He trusted that the Government would strictly adhere to the assurance that this was not to be an open ques tion ; not that he considered the Government Bill objectionable, for it violated to a certain degree the principles which he advocated ; but of two evils he was prepared to accept the least. In addres sing himself to this question he certainly felt consi derable difficulty. He hardly knew how to deal with the arguments of the Noble Lord who had introduced the amendment. If he were to address himself to the conclusion to which his arguments tended, it involved no less than suspending the whole of the labour per formed by women and children in this country. If on the contrary, he were to address himself merely to the verbal amendment, that was a question which they might argue upon its own merits ; but he did not see how he was to avoid addressing himself as well to the Noble Lord's premises as to his conclusions. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, in a considerable part of his speech, inferred the greater security, of the labour of the manufacturing classes from the greater productiveness of that labour. Now, it was unquestionable that the labour of the operative classes had been of late years in a marvellous degree productive, but they were not to infer, the severity of labour to which the improvement of machinery had been applied, from increased productiveness. Upon that ground they might argue that the labour of a man who was a slave, or one who followed the plough, was more severe than the one who scratched the ground. There could be no doubt that the closeness of rooms and the exhalations that took place in factories was most detrimental to health ; but it must be remembered that inconveniences, dangers, and difficulties were incidental to all sorts of arts and manufactures, It was not, however, upon this they were to arrive at any conclusion. There could be no doubt that serious physical consequences had arisen to young females and children in factories, but it must be recollected that they were subject to similar inconveniences in other walks of life.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord more particularly alluded to the opinion on this subject of medical men taken in 1839. That might be all very well ; but if he would refer to the opinion given by the medical actuary upon the evidence collected in 1835, he alluded to Dr. Mitchell, he would find a very dif ferent statement made. That Learned Gentleman stated that he saw no grounds for warranting the sup position that factory labour in any material degree dif fered from its effects on the human frame to any other kind of labour, &c., facts that all the investigations that had taken place showed that the laudatory and condem natory assertions that had been made were alike unfounded. Among other allegations of the Noble Lord was one, that the health of the females was most seriously injured by this species of employment ; but this had also been met by the testimony of Dr. Mitchell, and other medical gentlemen, Mem bers .of the Commission of 1833-34. Evidence wns given before that Committee that the allegation was altogether without foundation. They really must not take it for granted, that the condition of the persons employed in factories was so desperate as the Noble Lord would , have them to believe. They had agents employed by the Government, Commissioners of the Poor-law and Sub- Commissioners, making inquiries most deeply and anxiously into all these matters. Under such advice and agency, at a period beginning with the year 1833, great exertions were officially made to induce the sur plus agricultural population, for whom work could not be found in their own districts, to migrate to where the demand for labour was greater and the remuneration for it far higher. These Commissioners, in their first Report, stated the rate of wages in the manu facturing districts for a family including three or four members, as at least double what a family of the same description could earn in the agricultural counties. Well, a migration took place, in the first year he had referred to, to a very considerable extent. Dr. Kay, had described in his report the result of such emigration both to the parishes from which it took place, and to the emigrants and their families, as of the most happy and beneficial character. The same went on for a series of three or four years till the year 1837, which had been marked as the commencement of that stagnation of trade and bitter distress of which the House and the country had had but too strong evidence. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to a statement made by Sir H. Verney, which showed that the condition of the manufacturing labourers was far better than that of the agricultural labourers. Some of the latter, whe went to Wolverhampton and other places, obtained three times more wages than they did at home ; and their improved condition induced others to follow their example. The Hon. Gen tleman referred to a statement made by the Hon. Mem ber for Durham, which showed that the average weekly earnings of families who emigrated under the superin dence of the Poor-law Commissioners themselves, were 395. 4d. in 1836 ; 345. Id. in the following year, and 395. 40. in the year after. These fa'As proved that the condition of the manufacturing labourer was far better than that of the agricultural labourers. The Noble Lord opposite had referred to the moral con dition of the manufacturing classes. Now he (Mr. War burton) thought that, considering how those people were congregated together, the state of morality among them was not inferior to other classes similarly situated ; and he thought if the same inquiry and same tests were ap plied to the higher classes, as were in the case of the manufacturing classes, they would not find the for mer so vastly superior in a moral point of view. Now the improvidence and extravagance attributed in this case was not by any means peculiar to those who congregated in factories ; they extended equally to the handloom weavers. The Rev. Mr. Brian, speaking of the Spitalfields' weavers,observed that from the domestic habits of the people, and from their manufactures being carried on entirely in their own homes, it might be expected that they would present a perfect example to other classes ; but, on the contrary, from the variable nature of the demand, depending, as it did, on fluctuations in the state of commerce, and in the caprices of fashion, the greatest improvidence and extra vagance prevailed among the inhabitants of the cottages in that part of London in which silk manufacture was carried on. Let them not suppose, therefore, that extravagance and profligacy belonged exclusively to factories. The Report respecting the hand-loom weavers spoke of the insalubrity of the dwellings in the parish of St. John's. If they were to deal with this evil at all, they must deal with it universally ; it would be necessary to lay the axe to the root of the tree. Were they prepared, upon such premises as those ad vanced by the Noble Lord, to arrive at the same conclu sion as the Noble Lord ? Were they prepared, upon such arguments, to agree to a modification of the rules and regulations respecting labour, which now prevailed in this country ? From the arguments which had been advanced by the Noble Lord, he (Mr. Warburton) was not prepared to agree to this. Nobody could dispute what the result of the amendment of the Noble Lord, if carried, would be. Everybody must admit that if they limited to ten hours the labour of women and children, they must also limit to ten hours the labour of the men. He did not think there was any difference of opinion upon this point. He was sure the Noble Lord had the most humane feel ing in endeavouring to restrict the hours of labour in factories - to ten hours. Would it not, however, be well to look to the arguments of the labourers themselves ? They stated that limiting the hours of labour would tend to increase wages, that they would get more wages for less toil. He admitted that no person would suffer much if they were in the state they were in at the close of the war in 1841, when they had no foreign competi tors, but it was different when they had to compete with the whole civilised world. When they con sidered the short period in which a manufacturing interest might be raised, and when it might be raised in any country to which they chase to give such a premium as the diminution of the manufacturing ca pital of the country, he was inclined to agree in opinion with those who said that they ran a very great risk. The amount of cotton manufactured at the close of the war by this country was 260,000,000 lbs. ; the amount manufactured by France, in 1840, was 130,000,000 lbs. The manufacturers who were examined in 1833 and 1834 held different opinions with regard to the limita tion of labour. They stated that the immediate effect would be a rise in price. Mr. Ash worth was examined, and stated that the rise in price would add to the profit of the foreign manu facturer, but not to that of the home one. It was in vain to suppose that if they limited the hours of labour, foreign countries would follow their ex ample. They had abolished slavery and the slave trade, and yet the country that had the freest institutions in the world had retained both. So it would be in the present instance, if they lessened the number of hours of labour for the manufacturers. Foreign countries would be the only parties that would benefit by it. The large number of 343,000 persons supported by manufactures in Lancashire alone, showed what a source of employment was opened there for the agricultural population. It appeared from the reports of the Poor-law Commissioners, that in one year the number of those who migrated into the district under the superintendence of only one of the Commission ers amounted to 10,000. That was in the year 1825. It was said that if they put down the present system there would be much less vice. He thought that in a much ldrger proportion there would be less virtue. It must be so if they di minished the number of those who were raised above the necessity of supporting themselves by daily labour, if by intrcducing di s tr ess a mong the various manufacturing counties, they diminished the number of those who lived in affluence, and supported a number of domestics. How would they maintain their superiority, if they altered their system ? They had New Zealand, Western and Southern Australia, making fresh demands upon them. How were their commercial greatness and the vast expenditure which these distant possessions occasioned, to be sustained, except by maintaining a ma nufacturing prosperity ? The declared value of their exports of woven fabrics amounted in 1840 to upwards 0f21,000,000/. sterling. Was it not by the employment which this afforded that they were enabled to support their large popnlation, and to bear the burden of the public taxes? If they discouraged manufactures, other countries would adopt means to attain their super-eminence in the civilised world. If they lost their comparative greatness how would their neighbours treat them ? If France, in the course of thirty years, could mul tiply six or seven fold the amount of the exported fabrics, would they not be bearded in their own ports by the superior navy of that country ? Contracts had been entered into and leases had been taken, and the Government ought to take care that the steps they took would not place the persons who had en tered into these contracts and leases in adisadvantageous position. He (Mr. W.) had his eyes fully open to the alternative to which the Noble Lord (Howick) had said they would ultimately be reduced, of not merely having a Ten Hours' Bill, but in every manufacturing town and district local boards of trade to make arrangements be tween masters and men. It had been said in discussing this question that they should refrain from alluding to topics that were calculated to excite feelings in the country. He did not think it their duty to do so. What were the circumstances which affected the comforts of the working classes, and what remedies could be devised for their distress was an important element in the con sideration of this subject. The Hand-loom Weavers Commission stated the effect of the corn-laws would be to raise the price of corn 20 per cent., and assuming that half of the wages of the operatives went for the consump tion of corn, they operated as a tax on his wages to the amount of 10 per cent. The consequence was that more exertion was required from the operative and his family. Were it not for those laws the wife could give more attention to her domestic duties—one of the things complained of by the Noble Lord—and the operative could devote more of his wages to purchase of clothing, and his children need not be sent at so early an age to work. One of the recommendations made by this Commission was carried out by her Ma jesty's present Government, namely the reduction of the duty on timber. He was an advocate of' this measure, because it would improve the habitations of the poorer classes. Other questions which the Commission recom mended, namely, the improvement of our commercial re lations with America, the Brazils, Germany, and other countries, so as to admit of the most advantageous terms for our manufacture in our various markets—those ques tions, amounting to about six were unattended to by the Government,- with the exception of one measure only. A measure so impolitic as that which the Noble Lord had recommended, would absolve them from the further necessity which was threatened by the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland of putting the whole regulation of the details between the operatives and the masters under the management of local boards of trade.—(Hear.) Lord HOWICK said his Hon. Friend misunderstood what he had said. Mr. BECKETT was surprised at the discussion which had taken place upon the amendment of his Noble Friend, for that discussion appeared to him to be a mere discussion respecting profit and loss. _ The question they had to consider was, whether the present system was one of cruelty and hardship or not? If it should turn out not to be so, then the amendment of his Noble Friend would of course fall to the ground. The an swers to the statements of his Noble Friend had been, that the agricultural labourers and others were as badly off as the manufacturing operatives. Now, could that be urged as a reason why that House ought not to in terfere in a case where it possessed the power to do so? —(Hear, hear.) He knew that a large body of the ma nufacturers, owners of machinery, were in favour of the amendment of his Noble Friend. The Right Hon. Ba ronet (Sir James Graham) said that the machinery em ployed in manufactures generally lasted about sixteen years, and therefore it required a certain return as a remuneration for the capital invested in that machinery, and consequently to reduce the period of labour to ten hours a day, would greatly diminish the returns to the owners of the machinery, and a great injustice would Why manufacturer in this country, whether any y i he (Mr. Beckett) would appeal to any, most sanguine sanguineng employed i n manu f ac t u res had ever been for twelve h ours a d a y f or s ixteen years ? no manufactur er ever ex p ec t e d such a thing. workedtb% vh e eh done. ymnoacs Machinery was continually being superseded by new inventions. This argument of the Right Honour able Baronet, therefore, completely fell to the ground. He (Mr. Beckett) had taken the opinions of many practical men on the subject, and the whole of those with whom he had consulted deprecated a twelve hours operatives whom be h a d converse d with were all in Bill.—(Hear, favour ofeash hear-) M a nuf a cture r s, shop-keepers, and shortening the hours of labour, and in the town of Barnsley he had ascertained that no operative worked more than ten hours a day. He believed that the labouring population in the manufacturing districts would ever remain open to the schemes of demagogues and agitation while the present duration of the hours of labour continued. While he was opposed to a twelve hours'Bill, he would freely admit that he would not sup port a proposition for a Bill of ten hours. He thought such a change would be too sudden. He wished to see a gradual alteration, and for the present he would be content with an eleven hours' Bill. He would be glad to see such a Bill passed for a period of three or four years, and by that time they would be enabled to judge of the practicability of further curtailing the hours of labour. Sir GEORGE GREY felt anxious to state the reasons why he concurred with the Noble Lord who had moved the amendment which had been proposed. In doing so, he could not but acknowledge that the observations of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department, in introducing this Bill, were entitled to the greatest weight. He was bound to say that the arguments which had been addressed to the House by the Hon. Member for Kendal seemed to him (Sir G. Grey) to have been directed rather against le gislative interference on the subject than against the limited, and, as he thought, reasonable proposal which had been submitted to the House by his Noble Friend. They had been warned, and he admitted, properly warned, not to do anything which - might have the effect of curtailing our manufacturing energies and impairing the commercial prosperity of the country. He had lis tened in vain for any shadow of argument, or for the slightest proof, that the change which a as now proposed was likely to involve our commercial prosperity. He would ask whether any argument had been used against the amendment of his Noble Friend, which was not equally applicable to the principle of the Bill then before the House. The principle of legislative in terference had been long ago decided by the Legislature. When that question was decided opportunities were presented to the Hon. Member fir Kendal (Mr. Warburton) of pressing his objections either on the second reading of the Bill, or upon the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair. No such course, however, was taken. He (Sir G. Grey) thought, therefore, that in the present state of the proceedings it was unfair to raise that general question. The only question was how far ought their interference to be carr i e d—h ow f ar could it be safely carried, and how far the interest of the operatives required and permitt e d it s h ou ld b e carried out, and at what point they were to st a rt from. With regard to the subject of interference, it seemed to him that between the Noble Earl and the Government there was not the slightest difference. The Noble Lord did not ask the House to go beyond the Government in comprehending other classes in this Bill. The simple question upon which they were called to make up their minds and tg pronounce an opinion upon, was the question whether young persons between the age of 13 and 18, and women of every age, should labour during twelve hours a day, exclusive of the period con sumed in going to and from the factories, exclusive of the period to be consumed during their meals in the factory. The question the House had to decide was, whether the period should be ten or twelve' hours. On one side it was proposed that the tim e s h ou ld b e t en hours ; and the proposition on the other side was, that it should be twelve hours, which, in the case of females, no one could doubt was very excessive labour. He thought that the Report of the Fa c t ory I nspectors was deserving of every attention and consideration upon this subject, and they gave it as their direct opinion that twelve hours' work was more than enough for any young person, and in the case of females, the necessity of being absent for more than fifteen hours, was destructive of domestic happiness and comfort, and must necessarily tend to the total neglect of their fa milies. He would ask the House were they to declare that this excessive labour was necessary for the com mercial prosperity of the country ? Taken in connec tion with other measures which would tend to ameliorate the physical and moral condition of the p eo pl e , h e con _ sidered that such a provision as this would have a bene ficial result. He thought, from. all he could learn, -that the great mass of the operatives were most anxious to see the propositions of his Noble Friend carried out. This question, he was aware, was one of great difficulty; and he was happy to see so many Hon Members, who were practically acquainted with the sub ject, come fbrward and express their opinions upon it. He did not wish to raise any discussion con cerning extraneous matter, but he should say that he thought the difficulties which surrounded the question was considerably increased by impolitic restrictions upon trade, which upon the one hand limited the com merce of the country, and, on the other hand, pro duced the greatest fluctuations. He felt that the amend ment of his Noble Friend would be attended with the most beneficial results, and he should vote in favour of it. Sir J. GRAHAM said he did not wish to exclude from this discussion any matters which might tend to throw light upon it. This Bill had been brought in fur the pm pose of limiting the duration of labour in fac tories to twelve hours; for many of the operations in the manufacture of cotton and the higher branches of woollen trade, full-grown men and women were not adapted, and the labour of young persons was indis pensable. He should take a cursory review of all the legislative enactments which had been framed upon the subject of infant labour. Up to the year 1802 there was no law to limit the labour of young persons in fac tories. In that year a law was passed which prohibited their employment fo r a p er i o d exceeding twelve hours out of the twenty-four. This was the first instance of any interfererence for the protection of this most unpro tected class of individuals. So the law stood until 1819, when an Act was passed, declaring that in cotton manu factories no children should be compelled or allowed to work more than twelve hours. In six years afterwards further provisions were introduced for the regulation of the labour of persons under sixteen years of age in factories. In 1831, a Bill was introduced by Mr. Hobhouse, enact ing that no person under the age of twenty-one should work at night between the hours of half-past eight and half-past five in the morning. He had now traced the course of legislation on this subject from 1802 till 1831. In the year 1833, the Noble Lord, the Member for Dor setshire, introduced for the first time his proposition for shortening the hours of labour, in the shape of a Bill, reducing the time of labour from twelve hours to ten. The limit of labour before that was always twelve hours, 'and it was never sought to be altered till the Noble Lord introduced his measure. In 1833, he (Sir James Graham) had the honour of being in the councils of her Majesty, together with Lord Spencer, a most humane man, and one on whom the statements of the Noble Loed were likely to produce a groat impression, yet they thought it their duty to resist that motion, and in doing so Mr. Poulett Thomson urged the very argu ment which he (Sir J. Graham) addressed to the House the last time the subject was discussed ; he pointed' out that though the Noble Lord's intention was humane— though the facts he stated were most distressing—yet, taking a dispassionate view of the policy the Noble Lord wished to introduce, considering its bear-. ing between the employer and the employed, as a united Government they said this propo sition must be resisted. It would not be expedient to trace the course of all the legislation on this subject since 1833. He might add, however, that the Act of 1833 placed silk manufactories on the same footing as those of cotton, wool, and flax. In the following year a Bill was brought in by Mr. Hindley and Mr. Brother ton, which Mr. Hobhouse again, on the part of the Go vernment, opposed. The measure made noprogress in that session, and was not renewed in the following one. In 1836 Mr. P. Thomson with the support of Lord John Rus sell, introduced a Bill to amend and explain the Factory Act of 1833. This measure repealed that part of the statute which permitted children between the ages of twelve and thirteen to work for twelve hours a day; there was a division, and he (Sir James Graham), though opposed to the Government, voted with the majority, but that majority was so small that it was thought advisable not to press the Bill. In 1838, the Honourable Member for Taunton brought in a Bill which provided that children not more than nine years of age should not work more than twelve hours a day, still keeping the 12 hours as a limit. In 1839 the Factory Bill was again introduced, still keeping twelve hours as the number of hours to work ; there a as a Committee on the Bill, and Lord Ashley moved that the blank in the clause should be filled up with the words fifty-eight instead of sixty eight, this being practically a reduction of the hours of labour from twelve hours to ten. He could not state more forcibly the objections to this proposal, than by quoting the words of the Noble Lord the Member for London, who said, "It seems to me that the Noble Lord has not answered the question Of the Hon. Mem ber for Wolverhampton, whether, having reduced the hours of labour, he could provide at the same time that the same remuneration should be given for those shor tened hoursof labour." That was exactly the objection to the proposition at present; if the operatives believed that they would get twelve hours' wages for ten hours' work, it was a delusion so gross that the Government was bound to exercise its care not to adopt any measure founded on such false expectations. The Noble Lord then went on to say, " Does he carry his principle so far as to fix the rate of wages by law ? If he means to do so, the Committee must know the impossibility of such a course ; instead of the proposition being one of humanity, it would be one of great in humanity. He must, therefore, resist it." The majority in that Committee against the proposal was 94 to 62, and he (Sir James Graham) voted in that majority with the following gentlemen—Sir G. Grey, Mr. B. Hanes, Sir J. Hobhouse. Lord Howick, Mr. Labouehere, Lord Morpeth, Mr. Fox Maule, who was one of the tellers, and, lastly, he had great pleasure in voting on that occasion pith Lord John Russell. — (Hear, hear.) In 1841 another Factory Bill was intro duced, but the law, as it at present stood, had existed for 42 years, had been confirmed by six or seven Parliaments, and in all the measures introduced on the subject there had been an uniform adherence to twelve hours as the limit to the time of labour. The Noble Lord the Me tu ber for Dorsetshire had quoted evidence from the Be -1 ports of Mr. Saunders, showing that twelve hours of labour was too long, but he believed he would not find evidence to that effect in the Report of Mr. Horner. He (Sir James Graham) had distinctly put the question to these gentlemen, whether they believed that a ten-hours' Bill would be beneficial to manufactur ing operatives, and they were of opinion that such a Bill would have the worst effect upon them.—(Hear, hear.) Ie was aware that the Noble Lord had influential au thority in support of his proposition, but the matter must be decided on reasoning, and he could not persuade himself that anything had fallen from those authorities against the arguments with which he had met the Noble Lord. The Honourable Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire stated that the proposition was very generally assented to by the mill owners of the West Riding ; but those mill owners were mostly engaged in the simpler manufacture of wool in its earlier stages; their workmen were paid by the piece; and, provided they supplied the demand of their customers, the period of labour was to them a matter of comparative indifference. But if they went to those who were engaged in the more expensive stages of manufacture, with more expensive and complex ma chinery, in which greater capital was invested, there they would find no great desire on the part of the master manufacturer to limit the hours of labour to ten. Ninety-nine out of every hundred would have no desire to make the change.—(Cries of "No, no.") He was perfectly dispassionate, and he wished to make himself master of all the facts, for this was a most im portant question. He would most gladly avail himself of a ten hours' Bill if he considered that it would be for the interests of the working people of the country to do so. The Hon. Gentleman opposite, who was well known for his humanity, and for the interest which he took in the welfare of his workmen, was obliged to avail himself of the privilege of the law. This arose entirely from . competition. There was an overwhelming necessity for it, which he could not escape. The Noble Lord oppo site would allow him to proceed step by step. When he (Sir J. Graham) last spoke on the subject, he did not say that machinery should be replaced in sixteen years, but in twelve or thirteen years. (The Right Honourable Gentleman then quoted from Mr. Homer's report, in 1832, which stated, that the work of machinery was so rapid, and improvements in it so constant, that it should be replaced within 12 or 13 years, in order to re turn the capital with ordinary interest of Sock.) The proposition of his Noble Friend would abridge. by one-sixth, the operations by which that machinery, with interest of stock, was restored. He said he would advert to the only means of escape open to master manufac turers if the present amendment were passed. He was satisfied that in the present state of the labour market master manufacturers would be able, under ex isting circumstances, and at the present moment, to transfer their losses from themselves, the stronger party, to the labourers, who were th e weaker.--(Hear, hear.) The House, he knew, disliked calculations, but it would be necessary for him to enter into the facts, and he hoped the House would give him its attention while he did so. He had quoted in a former debate the :opinion of Mr. Homer—and he still believed that opinion to be true — that in the present state of the cotton and worsted ma nufactures, the effect of this measure would be to re duce, by i 25 per cent., the wages of the op era ti ves em ployed n those manufactures.—(Hear, hear.) Let them observe, if that were the state of the case, what would be the effects of this amendment upon the labourer, whose comfortable position he heard with such delight detailed by the Hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Bright). The Hon. Gentleman stated that work men employed on his own property received, on an average 93/. a year. Now, considering that he was right in this statement, the effect of the present proposition would be, that those families who were now in receipt of 93/. a year would have only 701. a year.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore a more important proposition could not be discussed. All that lie would ask on the part of Government was, that they would adhere to the law which limited the hours of labour to twelve. They should understand those matters in all their bearings. It was the duty of every Member to consider them, and of every Government, more especially, on whom the re sponsibility of their effects would rest, to reflect deeply on them.—(Hear, hear.) This was not a case for catch ing a passing popularity. That was nothing compared with the frightful responsibility which attached to it.— (Hear, hear.) It might be ruin to the country.—(Hear, hear.) He could not contemplate it, feeling as lie did, without horror ; and nothing should induce him to share in that responsibility.--(Hear, hear.) He begged the attention of the House to the arguments by which he hoped to prove that the inevitable effect of this measure would be a reduction of 25 per cent. on the wages of the operatives employed. He would take one case mentioned in Mr. Homer's report of 1842. One case was enough to exhibit the argument. The case was to be found in page 79 of the report. He would test the measure by the case of a cotton mill in Man chester, which employed 520 hands, spinning fifty hanks the pound. He would not wary the House with going through the items of the fixed capital ; suffice it to say there was a fixed capital to the amount of 8,914/. The total number of hours during which the operatives worked under the present law in a, week was 69.' By the-pro position of his Noble Friend the hours would be reduced to sixty—that was nine hours less than they were at esent:—there would be a loss to the manufacturer by the hour, which was calculated at 2/.165. 10d. Now, if this 2/. 16s. 10d. were multiplied by 9, it would give 25/. 11s. 6d., and this would be the loss of capital to the manufacturer in a week. In his establishment 170 operatives were employed at 15s. a week, and 250 at 10s. The weekly wages paid in the mill amounted to 127/. 10s. for the 170 workers at 155., and 125/. for the 250 at 10s., making a total of weekly wages to the amount of 252/. 10s. He had already stated that 25/. 1 ls. 6d. was the weekly loss, therefore the interest of the capital I bore to the weekly wages the proportion that 251. 1 ls. 6d. bore to 252/. 10s., which was about one-twelfth of the weekly wages. There could, therefore, be no ques tion that if twelve hours' wages could be made by ten hours' work, they must admit than a reduction of wages would be commensurate with the reduction of time, and master manufacturers would reduce the wages 1-6th. He said one-sixth, but he would not take so high a cal culation. He would take the positive reduction of the wages at one -seventh. He had shown that the loss of capital from the reduction of the time by nine hours was one-twelfth; and if one-seventh were added to one twelfth, the loss would be nineteen eighty-fourths on the whole, or less than one-fourth, but considerably more than one-fifth. He did not know that he had made himself clearly understood to the Committee.— (Hear, hear.) He believed the calculation was perfectly accurate, and he was not able to discover any fallacy in it.—(Hear.) It was, he believed, a fair calculation, and if that were so, it proved that the inevitable conse quence of passing the Noble Lord's proposition in the present state of the commercial world, at least in the cotton and worsted manufactures, would be a reduction of wages less than one-fourth but greater than one-fifth. He was bound to call the attention of the House to mat ters of this kind. He begged to call the attention of the House to the opinion of Mr. Poulett Thomson, a gen tleman who ought to be of some authority with gentle men opposite.—(Hear hear.) He said, "It would be better to have a duty of 2d. per pound imposed on the raw cotton, than that an abridgement of the hours of labour from twelve to ten hours should be carried into law." The loss which it would occasion to the master mauufacturer would amount to 1001. a week. The Honourable Member for Salford, when they proposed to reduce the working hours of young persons from 13 to 12, took occasion to taunt the Government with breaking the engagements made under the measure of 1833. It was an arrangement; and he only asked the Committee to maintain the com promise entered into between the manufacturing inte rest and the advo ca t es o f a T en Hours ' Bill. That was a settlement which ought not to be disturbed.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Kendal (Mr. Warburton) put irresistibly the statement which he (Sir J. Graham) made the other night, that the conclusion of his Noble Friend was at variance with his facts. (Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend made a statement with regard to collieries and mines, similar to that which he made in proposing the present amendment, but his conclusion was different; for in the former case he proposed that females and children under twelve years of age should be prevented from working in mines altogether, but he shrank from coming to that con clusion in the present case.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for South Lancashire felt the force of this. If this were a matter of feeling he would go along with his Noble Friend's proposition, but when be con sidered the state of the manufacturing population— assuming that he was right in his calculation that if this Bill passed the wages of both males and females would be reduced 25 per cent.—he was bound to ask himself the question, " Shall we limit labour to an extent which will reduce it from twelve to ten hours. under the certain evil that it will reduce the wages of women, and children, and husba n d s 25 p er cent .?"— (Ilear;hear.) That was the balance of disadvantage. He was persuaded that this would be the case with all the certainty that he would be persuaded of a mathe matical truth. In his opinion a measure more fatal V) morality, and to all the decencies of civilised life, could not be adopted. The Noble Lord, the Member for Liverpool, declared his object was to equalise the distri bution of labour. He said he desired to place factory labour on the same footing with other kinds of labour throughout the country. That was an ominous warn ing. —(Hear, hear.) This was but a small step ; and, by and bye, steps would be taken to deal with the whole labour of the country.—(Hear, hear.) A more disastrous course of legislation could not be entered on.—(Hear, hear. But, setting aside that view of the question, he begged to ask whether the tendency of their legislation was to equalise the distribution of labour ?—(Hear, hear.) He would ask any gentleman conversant with the manufacturing districts whether, though to a certain extent by their legislation of 1830 they had secured young persons against excessive la bour, that legislation had the effect so much desired by the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool?—(Hear, hear.) It had a directly opposite effect, and unless the House was prepared to go the whole length of dealing with every species of labour, it could not be otherwise. With regard to children, it had the effect of driving them from employments which their legislation controlled to employments to which it did not extend.—(Hear.) He understood that 35,000 children under the age of thirteen were employed in the printing of cotton. The effect of interfering by legislation to shorten the time of labour, and to prevent women and children from working, would be to produce a congestion of labour where they had not legislated.—(Hear, hear.) He had gone into the subject more fully than he intended, but lie wished to show that her Majesty's Govern ment (lid not desire to resist the wishes of a large portion of the labouring classes with out full deliberation—without duly considering the reasons on which they acted, and on which several suc cessive Governments had acted.—(Hear, hear.) He would conclude with a few general observations. In politics, as well as in morals, there was a retributive justice inherent in the order of affairs, clearly percep tible in matters of Government, and he had never yet seen a wide departure from the principles of sound le gislation without, sooner or later, producing confusion. —(Opposition cheers.) Yes, inextricable confusion.— (Renewed cheers.) They might taunt him. He cared not for those taunts. He was decidedly of opinion that such a departure from sound legislation would create and must end in a labyrinth of error, out of which there would be no escape.—(Opposition cheers.) It would in the long run produce evils, formidable evils, which it would be difficult, if not impossible to regulate at all, but particularly difficult to regulate for those whom it was intended to benefit.—(Hear, hear.) He begged particularly to impress upon the Committee, that if they increased the stringency of certain restric tions, the inevitable consequence would be,that they must relax others of a countervailing nature.—(Opposition cheers.) This was a highly artificial system.—(Hear, hear.) It was like a house of cards, from which if one was taken the whole tumbled down. It was a system which, if they touched, he was afraid evils would be created, which he did not wish to contemplate. Sir GEORGE GREY rose to explain. The Right Hon. Baronet had charged him with inconsistency with regard to this question, because he had voted differently in 1839. He thought the Right Hon. Baronet ought himself to show charity in bringing against him a charge of inconsistency.—(Cheers and laughter.) But it should be recollected that this was a subject on which they had obtained a great deal of new information— (Hear, hear)— and no regard for consistency would in duce him to reject the light of that information.— (Hear, hear.) He recollected that the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Paymaster of the Forces, had voted with him on that occasion, and he was very anxious to see how they should regard their consistency.—(Laughter.) Mr. M'Geachy and Mr. Labouchere rose together, but the latter gave way, and Mr. M`GEACHY addressed the House. He com menced by saying that the Noble Lord who introduced the present amendment gave an example that a public man could pursue a great public benefit through life.— (Hear, hear.) It had excluded the Noble Lord from office, because he would not accept office, lest it might stand in the way of that entire self-devotion with which he gave himself up to the pursuit of his high and noble objects.—(Hear, hear.) He thought a Ten Hours' Bill had great claims upon the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, for a Ten Hours' Bill was in troduced by the late Sir Robert Peel, and the principle was always warmly advocated by him. The present Government had come into power upon the shoulders of the people, and he (Mr. M'Geachy) appealed to the House whether they had shown any attention to the wants of the people. Had they done so, they might have remained one of the strongest Governments that ever existed. Although he did not com plain of their conduct with respect to the Factories Bill of the last session, considering the bigotry hich was shown respecting it by the Dissenters, yet he could not help thinking that a bolder course might have been adopted. From the time of the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act and the Reform Bill, when a Minister did not think it inconsistent with his duty to receive a deputation of 150,000 persons belonging to political unions, to theti me of the Chartist insurrections, —from that time to the present, redress of grievances had only been consequent upon agitation. Agitation had always preceded redress.—(Cheers from the Oppo sition.) He thought - the time was now come when the truth should be spoken. This country had gone upon the principle of amassing wealth, but the condition of the labouring population had not been considered. He hailed the proposition of the Noble Lord with satisfac tion. It was a step in the right direction. So long as the the present system existed—so long would there be discontent among the people.—(Hear.) What, after all, was it that was asked ? Why it was merely to reduce the hours of labour in the manufac turing districts to the usual period in other districts. He did not believe this would have the effect of reducing the wages of the operatives, and in this opinion he was borne out by many practical men.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that those who wished to abridge the period of labour wished to diminish the comforts of the poor. He did not think such would be the effect of the Noble Lord's (Lord Ashley's) proposition. Previous restric tions upon labour had not proved injurious to the inte rests of the labourers. The Hon. Member then -quoted from the report of Baron Dupin, a Member of the French Chamber of Peers, who approved of restric tions upon labour. He disapproved of the employment of children in factory labour, as he thought it injurious to their constitutions. He would feel it his painful duty to vote against the measure brought forward by the Government. Mr. LABOUCHERE said he never rose to address the House with feelings of greater fear and anxiety. It was painful to him to separate himself from those with whom he was accustomed constantly to act ; but when he saw the Government pursuing a course which he sincerely approved he could not shrink from giving them all the ass i s t ance i n hi s power.--(Cheers.) The Right Honourable Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department had divided his speech on that question into two distinct portions. Theifirst portion consisted of a lengthened appeal to the consistency of those who sat on that side of the House, and especially of those who composed the late Govern- Ativrrsista meat. He confessed that if the argument of consistency was the only one which he had to urge, he would throw that argument to the winds.—(Hear, hear.) If subse quent information bad convinced him that he had formerly acted wrong, he should feel it his bounden duty not to shrink from avowinc , that he had changed his opinion. This question had been discussed over and over again in the House of Commons ' - it had been repeatedly examined in C omm i ttees and by Com missioners appointed for the purpose, and they had all uniformly recoiled from the measure which his Noble Friend the Member for Dorsetshire recommended to the House.—(Hear, hear.) The point before them was a very simple one ; it was as important as it was simple. It was the point which was commonly designated the Ten Hours' Bill. The question was nominally whether they would take the step of restrict ing the hours of labour for young women to ten hours, but practically and really the proposal was to limit - the working of the factories to those hours.—(Hear, hear.) To that proposal the Legislature had hither refused to accede. Some Hon. Gentlemen, in arguing this ques tion, had said in effect, " We are in a new and untrod den path ; we have sanctioned interference with factory labour, and having done that we cannot go on too ra pidly." He confessed that he drew a very different conclusion.—(Hear, hear.) Believing that they were treading in a very peril pus path he was anxious that they should walk in such a path with great caution.(Hear, hear.) It was not enough to ask him whether it was right that a woman or a young person should be employed for twelve hours a day in a factory. He was prepared at once to say, he wished to God they could prevent it.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) If he could view the case as an isolated one, unconnected with consequences, no one could be more anxious than himself for the proposed alteration. But that was not the sole question before them —(Hear, hear.) In all human things good and evil were mixed together ; and, as legislators, they would act a most unwise, and a most narrow part, nay, they would act in opposition to the interests of those whom they wished to benefit, if they did not pause before they came to a decision. Honourable Gentlemen asked, what was the great difference between ten hours and twelve; and they reminded them that in the Factory Bill, which had passed through that House, they had, already li. mited the period of labour to twelve hours. Now ho would state why, in his judgment, they had acted on safe grounds in the course they had hitherto pursued, and why he thought that the course now pursued was one of peril. He believed that when.inquiry was first instituted in 1833, it was found that all well conducted factories in this country were not worked practically more that twelve hours a day. If that were the case, so long as they did not interfere with that arrangement, any other regulations which they might adopt were likely, impera tively- speaking, to be safe. What did they do under those circumstances ? They applied their care princi pally to children, and they regulated the hours of labour in such a manner as to oblige the manufacturers to adapt their work to the twelve hours' system. By doing that they had doubtless, to a certain degree, raised the charges upon the manufacturer, but still they never in terfered with the possibility of his working his mill for twelve hours.—(Hear, hear.) He maintained that this was a very important distinction.—(Hear, hear.) They could not confine their views to this country alone in discussing that subject ; they must look abroad.— (Hear, hear.) The measure which they were now discussing was to apply chiefly to those vast and important branches of their manufac tures which depended for their existence upon the export trade, which were subject in every instance, and at every step, to a very close competition with fo reign rivals. And what was the case with regard to the foreign manufacturers ? He apprehended that at that moment there was not a country in this world where cotton manufactures were established, in which the common period of working was not twelve hours a-day, and generally more.—(" No, no," from Lord Ashley.) His Noble Friend the Member for Dorsetshire expressed his incredulity on that subject. He would be glad to hear from him if in any country in the world there was a law which prohibited mills from being worked more than twelve hours a-day 2—(Hear, hear.) He would be glad to hear him mention any country in which the mills were not actually worked twelve hours. He would refer to one country—a very important manu facturing country—a country which, with respect to the cotton trade, was one of our most dangerous rivals—he meant the United States of America; and he selected that country the more readily, because it was one in which the competition was not so intense as to drive the population to subject themselves to intolerable la bour. What was the state of the cotton manufactories. of that country? He begged to quote the evidence of a very respectable gentleman in America connected with the cotton manufacture. He was asked what was the number of daily working hours, and his answer was, " The actual number of working hours averages twelve hours work at some seasons, at some seasons it is nearly fourteen, and at other seasons it is little more than ten." —(Hear, hear.) Now he thought that the House would at once perceive that they were taking a much more dangerous step in reducing the hours from twelve to, ten than they had taken formerly in reducing them to twelve. They were going on quite a new ground —a ground quite different from that which they had oc cupied in preventing infant labour from being unneces sarily severe and burdensome.—(llear, hear.) He would not trouble the House by entering into the details of this question, which had already been so ably dealt with by his Right Hon. Friend (Sir .T. Graham). It was quite evi dent that the effect of the Noble Lord's proposal wouldi be a material diminution of wages.—(Hear, hear.) Nes one who had any acquaintance with the manufacturing districts would undervalue this effect.—(Hear, team) The seasons when distress and famine stalked abroad in. our manufacturing districts, were not seasons of over-- a ork, but seasons when there was a difficulty in obtain ing employment. It was then that disease was rife, andt crime was found to abound.—(Laughter.) And if, by/ the mistaken legislation of that House, they should pr-o duce a real and permanent stagnation of the trade of this country, they would inflict far more misery in a week than they were now seeking to remedy.—(Hear. They were told, to be sure, that manufacturers had always shown a great disposition to amendment, and that this was re reason for adopting the Noble Lord's proposal. Why, manufacturers were, he imagined, much like other people; nobody liked to be interfered with if they pos sibly could avoid it.—(Laughter.) He admitted that, the apprehensions which the manufacturers had formerle expressed with regard to the Factory Bill had proved to be unfounded; but he did not think that they ought on that account entirely to disregard their representations, especially if, on examination, they proved to be founded on reason. He could not join his Hon. Friend, the- Member for Kendal, in regretting that Parliament hall ever undertaken to regulate factory labour; on the con trary, he thought that experience had shown that they had conferred most important benefits on the youthful population in the manufacturing districts by Parliamentary interference; and he believed that even the manfacturers themselves who had been most opposed to the change, were now convinced that such was the case. But with regard to the effect which their interference might produce on foreign countries, it was highly important in his opinion that they should not. take any rash or precipitate step.—(Hear, hear.) If they saw them crippling their manufactures by unwise. and hasty legislation, it was very unlikely that they: would follow them in the same course.—(Hear, hear.) Though the circumstance of great masses of people being there congregated together gave facilities for the regula tion of labour in factories, yet there were circumstances. connected with factory labour which ought to make theun particularly cautious, and which ought to prevent thee* from pushing the principle of interference to an unwise 4 and dangerous extreme.—(Hear, hear.) He did not wish to introduce into that discussion any question which might interfere with the dispassionate considera tion of this subject ; but there was one point involved in that question, to which. from its importance, he could not omit alluding. They had in this country established a protective system ; in various ways, he would not.; then say whether wisely or unwisely, successfully or unsuccessfully, they had protected various interests. But there was one thing which they could not protect, and that was their export trade. He warned tbe House that if they adopted this proposal—if they entered upon this new course of legislation, they would have to. adopt many . other measures, or else see a degree of ruin, and misery inflicted on various great interests in this; country, which it was lamentable to contemplate. He• would not follow the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir James Graham) in his description of the effect which the adop tion of the motion of his Noble Friend must inevitably have, first upon the wages of the labourer, then upon the profits of the manufacturer, and, lastly, upon the. general trade and industry of the country. But he fount the effect so clearly and ably stated in the Report of the Commissioners in 1833, that he would take the liberty of reading a very striking passage to the House, (The Right Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from the Report. It stated, that if the ten hours' system were enforced, there might, indeed, be a temporary scarcity of manufactured goods, so as, i n t h e first instance, to occasion a rise of prices, which might, as long as it lasted, anew of the main tenance of wages ; but this result could not in the nature of things be of long duration ; the small factories would soon be swept away and the more oprslent would even tually share the same fate ; the ultimate result would be a general recuction of wages.) Li this the whole case was so clearly, though so shortly, stated, that, he would be unwilling to weaken its offeet by adding to it any arguments of his own. He knew that those who tool: the course which he was taking might possibly be charged with inconsistency. He had cheerfully consented to interfere with labour under certain circumstances. He thought cases might be brought before the House, so revolting, so shocking, so out traging to the common feelings of human nature, the: he would listen to no arguments against alteration, but,. rather acting from impulse than reason., he would feel. sure that he was right in putting an eir:t to such abomi nations.— (Hear, hear.) With that view lie had sup ported the measure of his Noble Friend the Member for Dorsetshire last year, prohibiti ng the employment of women and girls in mines. He. had never regretted having done so, and he believed that he never would regret the course which he :Ltd pursued in reference to , that question. But he could not but feel that there was the greatest danger, if they did not look well and cir cumspectly to consequences, that, with the best inten tions in:the world, they might strike a'olow at the ma nufacturing interests of this court ,ry e and thereby inflict injury on the working classes generally.— (Hear, hear.) On these gro• An d s he was pre pared to offer all the oppositio n in his power to the motion of his Noble Friend,- arA he was prepared to share with the Government the which might attach to such omosition. He had seen no on that debate, to alter reason, from what h e h a d h er. , the opinions which lie had a hitherto ha'odium and unpopularity rd felt bound, theref ore , to give proposal of th e Noble Loiva.— ided entertainedvote against ; the he (C beers.) Mr:COLQUHOUN stid it utmt tio easy matter to meet authorities, so grew wad arguments so strong as those which had been urged, against' the proposal of the Noble '3"~"~' s r ,c .WlAss' '