The Sun. — London, England, 1839-08-06 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION. the prose lint he had totally disregarded it. He agreed in the eulogium that had been pronounced upon the juries of tha • county by his Learned Friend, and he believed that they would, es they had hitherto done, discharge their duty •with firmness t and with temper. He had no objects to serve in the present iprosecution—he knew nothing of Mr. Collins, nor had he ever esen him till lie came that Has. The only thi ng h e h a d h ear d of slim was in the discussions in the House of Commons, when, as it appeared to him, a very unfounded charge had been I brought against the Justices of th a t county . H e comp l a i ne d o f the bad mete of the Learned Sergeant reading a private letter 'i which he (the .Attorney-Gereral) had written to a person reamed Cooke. But, it should be remembered that there were 1 e eetaia rules and an etiquette in the profession, by which they eonlet not refuse a brief, end by which they were bound to do the best could they for their clients, whoever they might be. It was only to explain th rules that he (the Attorney-General) E hrd writ ten the letter which Sergeant Goulburn had demeaned himself by reading. lie presumed Sergeant Goulburn was "Itrela* failowitag the instructions lie had received, and sbeeir e es the Magietrates amid Corporation of Birmirgham. He I:al been advised to have nothing to do with any prosecution interfering with free discussion, and that advice he had always :need upon. If, however, the Jury were of opinion that the cosehtet pursued by the mob in the Bull-ring of Birminham, or that publications like the present were merely in favour of free discussion, then they would acquit the defendant at the bar. But he doubted very much whether the Jury would come to so absurd a conclusion, or whether they would think that it was advantageous to free discussion that the peaceable inhabi tants shoeld be compelled to close their shops, and suspend. bueigess. It was complained that he Lad not examined Mr. Salt, but the case had b een com pl e tely proved without bi n , an d i he bad tendered Mr. Salt, Mr. Guest, - and all the other wit ; tresses, for the Learned Sergeant. Extremes sometimes met ; ' and there was in his opinion but a shade of difference between the opinions of Ms. Sergeant Goulburn and the Chartists.— (Langhtev.) He thought it most• unfair and ungenerous of I the Learned Sergeant to attack Mr. Hill, the Recorder of Bir mingham, when the Learned Gentleman had not the op t portanity of defending himself. Dr. Booth, however, i who: was also a Conservative, would not imitate such conduct, aid had repelled every attempt to censure the conduct of those gentlemen who acted in a Magisterial capacity with him.. Now, with respect to the depositions of Mr. Collins, whether he had been cautioned or not he (the Attorney-Gene ral) had not made any use of them. He had always objected 1 to confessions when any other evidence could be procured, and the jury would recollect that both Lovett and Collins had been elution( d, one in the hearing of the other, that there depo sitions Would be made use of against them. He now came to ask what was really the question they had to decide, and in the long and fiery speech of Sergeant Geulburn no allusion what ever had been made to it. It was said that Collins was a poor mechanic, and it was to be deplored that such a man should be made the subject cf a prosecution. But who were they to prosecute? they had no proof as to the menets a, of the Colleen ton nor had they any evidence that these persons concurred in the resolutions. In .act they had no alternative but to prose cute the man Who had procured them to he printed and pub lished, unless they wished to pass the inflammatory placard by altogether. He had shown them what the state of Birrning lam was when -that document was published, and he proved to them the necessity that exiled for calling in the assistance of the metropolitan police, elthottli the Learned Sergeant had thought proper to make a jest of the police being packed up in omni buses, but he should not forget that what was sport and jest to the Learned Sergeant might perhaps be death to the people of Birmingham, whose property was destroyed and whose lives .sere likely to be sacrificed. It was attempted ho be denied that the people hail not had .sitificient warning of the calling in of the police force, but he had already proved to the Jury satis -1 factoiily that ler. Booth had repeatedly called upon them to disperse, and retire es their homes, and had ultimately read the Riot Act. There never !tad been a more dangerous excite ment or breach of the public peace, and at that very moment the Convention, fors(Aili, which waesit tingat Birmingham, had issued the most inflammatory and violent document. It had been urged gilt Collins on some former occasion had denounced physical forte; and he (the Attorney-General) had no wish to d-prive him of fi the benet of but was thet document o such. a tendency? Oa the contra th ey, at, ted it directly inci to resist ance and a breach of the law. -The Convention assumed to disterb, it would seem, the government of the town of Ilir minghain. He knew very little of it, but some of its pro cetelinee were highly culpable, and lie *as rejoiced to find • that :Me. 3luntz awl other respectable gentlemen had with drawn from it. The police had been called in the document " a blood-thirsty force," and would anybody deny that that is a libel upon a body whose conduct had been approved by all parties? Ile del not staid there to defend the Magistrates of Birteinghain ; the libel was net upon them, but it was one ' seieling to bring the laws Tnto disrespect. They were told that air, 1. 'ellius was net present in the Bull-ring, but he had en iesusage.l and imited others to go these and make seditious I:reeCes, awl disturb the public peace. It. might be ic;;a: i , ,gly prudent anti convrment in Mr. Collins not go to the Bull ring, 6 , 1 t. hs was morally responsible for the consequences of that wo,t yiolmt and seditious placard, by which the people w.!re lvl to• set all law and constituted authority at defiance. i have never witnessed so determined an attempt to fix a t liTwpa life or property as was contemplated by those resolu tiims. I amsot doubt for a moment that it is to such resolu- ens as these we have to ascribe the melancholy circumstances which we sincerely deplore. Why has the law been set at de- Why have houses been destroyed? Why has Bir ,eliarn presented the appearance of a city pillaged ? Because .1 ee resolutions taught the people to set the law at defiance. fitr case is now in your hands; if you believe that this scanda leue mei libellous publication has been directed against th e London police if you believe that they in il the public mind and excited the people to the acts of outrage perpetrated, it is your duty to eeneiee the prisoner. If you are of opinion that those resolu tioweare harailese, aeld that they are not, or were not, ealcu- I lied to excite sedition or inflame the angry passions of men, then you will give him the benefit of your opinions. But if you art satisfied that they were calculated to originate the evils alluded to, I am satisfied. you will discharge your duty to the public by returning a verdict of guilty. 31r. Justice LITTLEDALE summed up the evidence. His Lordship, in conclusion, said if, gentlemen, you believe that dose ieeolutien4 were calculated to mislead the people and ex a ;peeate their ea inds,yoar verdict *ill be according to that belief. Only orb; resolution has reference to the police. The second reso l. on atErn s the rimhtof thepeople to meet and diScusstheir grim art,ee. The quesiion Its you ti decide is whether this resolution means the right of petition or a declaration of the right of the people to consider calmly and temperately their wrongs, or whether it has an ailusiGn to physical force. You are also to consider whether it was intended by it to incite the people to to take power into their own hand, to create disturbance and excite tumult. The third resolution has a reference to Doctor Taylor: It might have been supposed that his arrest was arbi trary and illegal. The people undoubtedly had a right to dis cues that question calmly and temperately. Even under the ere,amstances there might have been an allowance granted for warmth .Pf expression. Still they might have exceeded the bounds of moderation. With those and similar remarks, his Lordship concluded his address. The fury retired for fen minutes, and returned with a verdict of Guilty, accompanied 17 a recommendation to mercy, in con eeqUence of the prisoner s excellent character. Sentence was deterred. - The prisoner appeared greatly disappointed when the terdiet was announced. haoe ? PllO-.CORN-14 A SLA NDE R.—A Leicester paper contains the following gratuitous and unwarrantable a.tack on the Chartists, who, as is well known, have bees more peaceful and moderate in this %ounty than in any sither where they exist :—" Chartist Outrage.--On Wed cesday evening these freebooters' set tire to a stack on Cie premises of Mr. Thomas Poyndcr, in their supposed stronghold of Sheepsheail,-no doubts being entertained of tae fact—the parties there being in the habit of levying tontributlons from door to door. The only reason as signed for;the cause of so malevolent an action, being the unwillingness of Mrs, Poynder to acquiesce in their de. minds." Nothing appears more probable to us than that the wretches who perpetrated this foolish and atrocious .feed instead of being Chartists, were unprincipled Tories."` When the lower and move ignorant members of the faction see " their betters" keeping corn out of the country, by means of the Bread Tax, and even throwing it into rivers to make it scarce, and when they are told that this horrid system is good for the country, can it be ondered at that they should follow the example—with (lily, a slight v Lriation—by burning their neighbour's ricks? If the first be right, the second cannot be far wrong. 'ibex ace alike the °Spring of Vass Abreary. Our aced - tints from all parts of the country state that ttpprehensions of any serious interruptions of the pub lie tranquillity are fast passing away. The beat feeling prevai's among all classes of society, without respect to p arty. Tha municipal institutions have been found of es sratiat advantage to the preservation of the peace. At .. , ;;tockport 2,000 persons tendered themselves as sprcial eon, , ,:tabies, and the local police, appointed by the new cevoofationst, have acted invariably with promptitude, ; .atrage, and discretion. Tile south mail nit Thursday was fully an hour behind its time, which naturally excited some anxiety. and gave ri. , e to many surmises as to the cause. On its :‘ ,.riv 11 it was ascertained that the delay arose from an on the Western Railway. i-Lre, as elsewhere, tile verd;er of the Jury in the case of Bohm, excited can s:datable surprise.—Berwick Advertiser. rt.fterth.tv morning, between seven and ei"ht ‘.2,t , ick Staple' Stonehurst, Esq , a young. gentlemen 23 years of a*e, residing at Putney, in c3mpany with a friend, went ift a heat to bathe in the river, but when in the mid !le of the ?dream ha suddenly sunk and disappeared. CHILD AILUIDER AND SUICIDE.—On Satal• day__ last a female named Harriet Heringshaw, residing in New John-street , Bir min g ham, destro y ed h e rself and her infant child. She was found in the attic, suspended to a pole by a cord round her neck and quite dead. The infant was also found strangled by a crape neckerchief, with • venial it was suspended to the same rope that had destroyed ' its wretched mother. The deceased had been cruelly and most diskracefully treated by a person named Wm. Organ, the father of her child, which prayed upon her spirits so much n as to i mpe l h er to t h e d rea df u l cr ime she committed. A inqu es t was h e ld on t h e b o di es, w h en t h e j ur y returned verdicts, " That the deceased (the mother) destroyed herself in a fit of temporary insanity ; and that the deceased infant was hanged by ii:s mother while labouring under a temporary fit of insanity.', SINGULAR O CCURR*,NCE—GALLANT CON.. Duel. OP A BOL—OarnaTnlau(rsclay, lietween twelve and one o'clock, as a young ve g i rrer's porter) was carry ing a chest of tea along in h gton-qc,ay ( Dublin) he stopped at the Liffey wall for purpose of resting ; the tea was fastened by a rope e passed across the young man's chest. As he was whichach:ut to proceed oi; his ins ttadieswnei7llp way he lost his balance, and in Ruenee of the way le was situated the chest was r i eci pitaed over • t he wall, carrying the young little fellow, named Moore, thirteen year.t. At gallant enffaged fishing at the spot, sprang forwar ?ld, who was . s'ant, and was fortunate enough te lay hold 4,3 fat the in m e) by the legs; the rope at the instant goi the falling 1 e id, the chest of tea fell into the river. Z oo o r v e er h hi s the man for a few seconds, when assistance was procureel: and the man released from the perilous situation in which he was placed. The chest of tea was taken up in a few minutes by two young men near the spot with a boat.—_ Dublin Molitor. 1 The heavy fall of rain last week so flooded the 1 River Towy that its banks were covered with one deep t sheetof water along a great part of its course from flan , doses" , to Carmarthen. An immense quantity of hay and several cattle were carried away by the force of the current. The loss sustained in consequence is enormous, and in many cases quite rui nous . O n S atur day boats were plying be. s tween this place and Pensard, and on the Swansea road, .for the convey ance o f persons to an d f rom A tte market, and :t is a matter of surprise that no accidents ofcurred. W. have nct heard of any lives havin g lost, been but the de truction of property is im mense. ian. Canthr i N A. 7 AL IN TELLI43,OkT'CE. ( From the Hampshire Telegraph.) PORTSMOUTH, Auo. 3.—The Hastings, 72, Capt. Law rence, C. 8., sailed yesterday, for Plymouth and Lisbon. The Revenge, Captain the Hon. W. \Valdegrave, was towed out of harbour on Thursdfy, the three companies of the 84th Regiment, for Cork, having been previously transferred to her from the Apollo troop ship, which, in the first instance, was intended to convey them thither. The Revenge is considerably short of her complement of men, and is ordered to Cork to enter her full number. She will sail on Monday. Sixty seamen, however, for service in this ship, are hourly expected in the Blenheim. The Blenheim, 72, is ordered from Sheerness to Spit head ; she would have been here during the week, but having wrung her capstan by endeavouring to unmoor with with an elbow in her hawer, she remains to get the damage repaired. Report says she is ashore on the Beacon Shoal, in the Swin Channel. The Melville, 72, and Columbine, 15, left St. Helena, for Algoa Bay, on the sth June. The Ringdove, 15, was at St. John's, New Brunswick, on the 29th June. The Avon steamer arrived yesterday from the River, and sailed again for Dublin. The Lily, 16, Commander Deare, intended for the coast of Africa, is fittinc , to take Mr. R ea d a ll, t h e E ng li s h Con sul, to the Cape de Verds. The Gorgon steam frigate is ordered to be here to morrow, from Sheerness, to be ready for a start for Malta. Orders have also been dispatched to Leith, to bring the Benbow to Spithead. The Powerful, 84, Captain Napier, arrived at Gibraltar on the 12th ult., and sailed on the following day for Malta. The Apollo troop-sloop, Mr. Karley master, sailed on Thursday to Jersey, to take on board troops there fur Ply mouth ' after disemb ar ki ng w hi c h s h e w ill remove ot h ers from that port to Ireland. The Royal Sovereign transport arrived on Monday from Bermuda, and sailed on Thursday for Woolwich. On Saturday morning last four companies of the S4th ( York and Lancaster) regiment, under the command of Major Willington, marched from Cork for Kilkenny; and on Monday last, at an early hour, the head-quarters, under the command of Lieutenant- Colon! Macbean, K. H., fol lowed for the same destination. The 7th Royal Fusiliers, under orders for Gibraltar, replace the 84th, until the arrival of a troop-ship to convey them to the Rock. In Harbour.—Britannia. Victory, Excellent, Royal George, Pantaloon, Diligence, naval transport, and Mes senger, steamer. AL Spithead.—Revenge, Curacoa, Lily, and Furst Menschikoff (Russian. ) PLYMOUTH, AUGUST —Ti)e Leveret arrived on Sa turday from the coast of Africa; and the Winchester, 52, on the same day from Portsmouth ; she sailed to-day for the West India station. The Hercules, 74, sailed on Fri day, for Lisbon ; and the Layton convict-ship on the same day for Hobart Town. The Clio sailed on Sunday for South America. In Hamoaze—lmpregnable, San Josef, Sylph. Girton steamer, Pandora, Drake Lighter. In Barapool-._Druid, Swale lighter. In the Sound— Belleisle, Leveret. NAVAL PROMOTIONS AND APPOINTMENTS.—Commander. —Robert Spencer Robinso n t o t h e Phmuix. Lieute nants.—John Barnes, (a) to the Victory, for the duties of the ship ;J. Compton, additional, to Stag. Master. W. Brodie, to command the Rattlesnake troopship. Se cond Masters—Edward F. Cavell, sen., Samuel Wad dingham, and G. H. Harper, to the Rattlesnake ; Edward Williams, to be Acting Master of Phcenix ; George I. Gibbon, to the Portsmouth yacht. Assistant-Surgeon..— John Sinclair to the Rattlesnake. Mates.—Arthur Vvncr, to the Blenheim ; Andrew Lilli e , a ddi t i ona l, t o the - Bri. tannia. Boatswain.—Benjamin Bull, to the Rattlesnake. SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE. (LLOYD'S.) DEAL, Au c. 3.—Wind S.W. by N.E.—Sailed the Royal Tar, Brooks, for Lisbon ; Atlas Pigot, Madras ; Oratava, Johnson, Cape of Good Hope ; Emerald, Vasti, Rio Janeiro; Mountaineer, Cockburn, Quebec ; Ocean, Robinson, ditto; Waterben, Dods, ditto ; Maria, Brown, ditto ; W. G. Ander son, Steele, ditto; Rosslyn Castle, Proctor, ditto; James Har ris, Wright, ditto ' • Princess Charlott e , M a itl an d, ditto ; Eagle, Stephenson, St. John's, New Brunswick ; Barossa, Austen, Sydney, New South Wales. Arrived, the Janet Willis, Willis, from Demarara. LIVERPOOL, Ace. 3.—Wind, N.W. 4th ditto.—Arrived, Henry Porcher, Valparaiso ; Mary and Jane, Osborn, Licata ; Elizabeth and Mary, Pattesen, Riga ; Forfield, Sly, Bombay ; Westchester, Farris, New York, sailed on the 13th ult. ; Edmond, Perkins, New Orleans ; Thomas Bennett, Hayden, Charleston; Leonore, Graves, ditto; Ann, Uhenfield, Maran ham ; Theron, Miramichi ; Gem, 31‘Kenzie, Riga; Mercer, Mercer, ditto; Tell, Cooper, Archangel ; Sailed, Cheerful, Batavia ; Adrastus, Day, Cape of Good Hope ; Maw ney, Downes, Para; Waterville, Mills, Hayti; United States, Barr, Philadelphia ; Montezuma, Christianson, ditto ; Ocean Queen, W. Master, Quebec ; Champion, Warren, Boston ; Buckingham, Robertson, Africa; Gandolpho Culotto, Naples; Giorgio, Chevie o , P a l ermo ; Rival, Sutherland, Jamaica; Gazelle, Buchanan, Monte Video; Grafton, Smith, Philadel phia ; Waltham, Burton, Providence ; Airey, Nicholson, Mon treal. Off port the Courier, —, Valparaiso ; Jessie, —, Quebec; Devereux, ditto; Aminca, ditto; Hercules, Buctush. FALMOUTH, ALTO. 2.—Wind variable. 3. —Wind N. N.W, —Arrived, the Queen Christen, Miramichi ; Mutine packet, Halifax, sailed 19th ult. Sailed, the Ophelia and Ann, Barker, Mauritius; Elizabeth, Lowden, Picton ; John Romilly, Ken dall, Newfoundland ; Dexterous, Proom, Messina. Petrel packet, West Indies. GUERNSEY, AuG. 2.—Arrived, the Amelia, Le Mesurier, Rio Janeiro. Sailed, the Minerva, Scott, Gijon ' • Ace of Trumps, Lidstone, Val enc i a ; Willi am an d M ar i a, De Cartaret, Malaga, PORTSMOUTH, AUG. 3.—Wind N. 4, N.N.E. to N.— Arrived the Mariner, Bartlett, from Quebec. Sailed the Maria Cecilia, Vrona, for Vera Crua ; Earl of Ilardwicke, Henning, Calcutta ' • Superior, Grate, D emerara ' Thomas King, flounce, Sydney ; Mary Young, M a th er , Halifax ; Richard, Rodes, Messina. PLYMOUTH, A uc. 4. —Wind variable. —Arrived the Edward, Dodd, Memel. Sailed the Ada, Warwick, Nestor, Smith, and Victoria, Shollon, for Quebec; Kerswell, Gour, Seville; Amelie, De la Fosse, Mauritius. -- • ••• HASTINGS, AUG. 4.—Off ••- port, the Viscount Melbourne Drayner, from Canton. SOUTHAMPTON, AUG. 4.—Sailed the Lloyd's, for Quebec. YARMOUTH, ISLE or `Viola, Au°. 4.—Sailed the Hector, Lawson, for Quebec. , POOLE, AUG. 4.—Arrived the William Retson, Robbins, and Brothers, Veale, from Newfoundland. Sailed the Angli cania, for Quebec. BRIXHAM, Arc. 4.—Arrived the Fame, Rawson, Cadiz. DARTMOUTH, Ago. 2.—Off port, the Ceres, Hazelwood, from Barbadoea. Sailed the Susan, Le Baillie, Newfoundland. VESSELS SPOKEN WlTH.—Willsons, Demerara to Liverpool, 27th ult., lat. 44. long. 35. ; Gironde, Bristol to Quebec, Ist inst., lat. 50. long. 7.; Fama, of Kincardine, for Berbice, Ist inst., lat. 50. long. 8., by the Mutine packet, arrived at Fal mouth • William Bavias, Norice, L on d on t o Phil a delplaia, 28th silt., let. 43. long. 11. ; Britannia, Liverpool to Bahia, 9th June, lat. 18. S. long. 31. W. ; Saladin, of Hartlepool, fur Quebec, 24th ult., lat. 44. long. 41., by the Henry Por cher, arrived at Liverpool. DEATH OF A POLICE MAGISTRATE.—On Thursday morning it was announced to the Magistrates of Marylebone office that their colleague, Mr. Shutt, died at Highgate on Sunday morning last. He requested that his papers and memorandums, left in the office, might be sealed and sent to the Home Office, which was immediately done. Mr. Shutt, who was fermeily a barrister on the Oxford Circuit, was appointed one of the stipendiary Magistrates about four years since, and was generally con sidered to possess a sound knowledge of the law. Soon afterwards his health began to decline, which rendered his temper irritable, and precluded the possibility of his attend. ance regularly to his duties. For the last five or six months he had not been to the office. He was about 45, and died of consumption. Lord Wodehouse, the Lord-Lieutenant of the county of Norfolk, hearing that Love, the Chartist, and others of that class were about to address the people at Wymondain on Sunday morning, entered that town early, and ordered the police to be in readiness to warn the in cendiaries out of the place. About ,eleven o'clock L ove went to the Market-c ross , intending to hold forth, but the police and constables made him move on, and would not permit him to raise a crowd. The Lord-Lieutenant gave the same directions in the surrounding towns, and Love , walked with his companions briskly from one place to an. other, in each the police preventing him from uttering his pestilential doctrines, and he fought his weary way home ssarcely able to walk from fatigue.—Norwich Mercury. PREPARATIONS FOR THE REMOVAL OF THE COURT TO WINDSOR.—The principal Ministers of the Crown have engaged or are in treaty for residences so near to Windsor Castle as to admit of their dining there every • day during her Majesty's stay, if they sh ou ld be honoured by the Royal command to that effect. Lord Melbourne is to live at Sunning-hill ; Lord Palmerston at Englefield. green ; Lord Howick at Datehett ; Lord John Russell is in negotiation for a villa in the forest. For Lord Ux bridge and his family Cumberland Lodge is now in course of being repaired and furnished.—Morninq Post. MELANCHOLY AccIDENT.--Wednesday, as William Jollie was descending with several tons of wood, the shaft of a new coal pit at Blairderdrie, near Garscad den, the patent hoisting machine block gave way, and he was precipitated to the bottom, the block and tackle falling on him. Medical aid was procured as speedily as possible from Paisley, Renfrew, and Glenhead, and his right thigh was amputated without any serious loss of blood, but be was so severely injured that he died within an hour after the operation.: Had he survived, it would have been neces sary to amputate his other leg also. He has left a wife and five children to deplore his loss. The circumstance has excited deep feelings of commiseration in that quarter for the family. --- , . ADDITIONAL TROOPS.—In addition to the depot of the 93d Regiment, which has for some time been lying here, a detachment of the 78th, under the command of Captain Hemmans, arrived at the Barracks on Thurs. day. The march of this detachment seems to have occa sioned a little alarm in Glasgow, where reports were spread that Paisley was in a state of riot. We understand that so much ground had the report gained, that a troop of horse was kept all night in readiness, to gallop from the Cavalry Barracks, Glasgow, had their services been re. quircd. We have only to add, that Paisley in common with Glasgow, remains in a state of perfect quietness.-- Paisley Advertiser. HER RING FISIIING.—III the early part of this week the fishing was very promising, the boats averaging from three to twelve crans. A gale of wind from the North prevented them going to sea on Thursday night. This morning they have caught very few; the hest boat we hear of has about feur crans, and many of the fish are 'Pawned. We trust to see a fresh shoal next week ; for, as that at present on the coast arrived some weeks before the fishing was tried, it is evident that it cannot last long. A rumour was current during the week, that a herring boat from Fisherrow had been run down by a steam-boat, but we are happy to say it i 3 unfounded. At theshin ; Eyemouth the fi s hi ng during the last week, although not heavy, has been gener a l g t s it Frenchnd morning has been the best, the average being f rom five to twenty cr ans . P r i ces 14s. i t n o I t 1 5 1 s . p p o e r r t cyan. Several and prospects. English are vessels good.— ar e Berwick Advertiser. fi IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, AUGUST 3. NEW SOUTH WALES. Mr. CHARLES BULLER'S speech continued from The Sun of yesterday. In 1824 the expenditure wa5:145,000/. In 1835, eleven years after, it rose to 292,0001., being more than double the ex. penditure at the former period. ln -1838 it was reduced to .24000/. Yet with a deficient revenue the Government pro posed to the Legislative Council, that the expenditure for 1839 should be 360,000/. In all the annals of the profusion of Governments, he had never met with any to compare with New South Wales, and in order to maintain this excessive ex pendieare the Government had b een o bli ge d t o b rea k f a ith and trench upon [the land revenue, thus depriving the colony of its surest source ef prosperity, viz. labour. He did not blame the Government here fur this gross extravagance, he only adduced it as an instance of the kind of extravag ance which would always take place where there was a distant colony having large revenues without being checked by the control of that House. The con c lusion to which he wished to draw the attention of the House was that the people of New South Wales ought to have some voice in the expeadituro of the revenues which were raised from them. He might be told that the people of New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land were unfit for self-government, but that was not the opinion of many of those persons who were best acquainted with toe colony and most interested in its welfare and good government. Ile might refer to the evidence of Mr. M'Arthur, one of the largest proprietors, who said the time had come for giving the people of the colony the choke of representatives. This was not merely the opinion of residents, but of most intelligent oificers s including Sir Edward Parry, Sir Thomas Mitchell, the Surveyor-General, and Sir Richard Bourke, who was for a long time Governor. _Numerously signed petitions had also been presented on this subject, and cue with. 1,91,0 signatures was now on its way to this country, 125 Magistrates out of 198 having signed it. The House ought not much longer to delay the consideration of the queistion; He felt the force of the objection urged against the plan, that with a population situated as that seas, a representative government could not be immediately established. in .New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land. The feeling of the colony ought to impress on the House the desirableness of taking such means as would enable it, at the earliest period,:with safety, to establish a free Government in the colony.—( Hear, hear.) Government ought to take mea sures to fit these colonies for freedom. He had a bad opinion of the working of the Colonial Government, but he did not attribute this to any bad intentio n , - bet to our not knowing anything about the colonies, and our not caring anything about them. One of the most extraordinary instances of carelessness was our continuing the system of transportation. 'Within the last ten or twenty years it had been discovered that these colo nies possessed more valuable exportable commodities than any of the celonies of the British Einpire, and there could belittle doubt that, in less than fifty years .it would be infinitely more valuable than all the other colonies of the British Crown together. The Government ought to have altered the system the moment the value of these colonies was discovered, and ought to have abandoned the absurd idea of keeping these valu able colonies as a kind of prison, and converted them into the abode of civilized and industrious men. There were no colo nies that offered so great an inducement to a respectable settler. In New South Wales the feeling against the abolition of transportation was that it weed(' deprive them of the importa tion of labour, and cut short the prosperity of the colony.--( Hear, hear.) But the supply was already inade quate to the demand. The utmost amount of the importation was 4,000 a-year, and the wants of the colony required 10,000 labourers. The want of labour, therefore, had been so serious an evil that they had proposed the most extraordinary devices for introducing slavery into the colony that had ever been heard of, such as the importation of the Chinese, the Malays, and the Hill Coolies of India. The Government, however, much to their credit, had put a stop to the plan. The only suffis cient supply of labour could be procured by encouraging the free emigration of those who were ready to leave their country, provided they could actually settle on good terms in the colony. They would thus obviate the necessity of transportation, and get rid of the great obstacle to emigration, and to giving the people a free Constitution. In the course of five years esiigration might be put on a progressive footing, and the colony rendered capable of taking care of itself, and enjoying those free insti tutions without which Englishmen could never long be content. He had, as he had said before, merely taken this opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the existence of the system of Government which had produced such great. mismanagement Of the affairs of the colony, to remedy which immediate steps ought to be taken. Mr. LABOUCHERE would not follow the Hon. Member through the whole of the details into which he had entered, but this was not from any disrespect to him or insensibility to the subject, but because he relt that no good practical result would follow from entering upon a vide field of discussion at the mo ment when the question before the House was of a very narrow kind. At the same time the statement which the Hon. Mem ber had made was calculated to present so fallacious a picture, from his having abstained from adverting to other subjects which were intimately connected with the question, that he (Mr. Labouchere) mould feel it his duty to advert to some points which the Honourable Member had omitted. The Hon. Member began by stating that he hoped the time was not far distant when institutions of a more free character would be substituted. He (Mr. L.) was far from differing from that general principle ; it was because he felt there was an objection to Englishmen Brine under any Government in which they had no share—(Hearhear)—that he was disposed to run some hazard rather than continue that state of things which must have in itself the seeds of difficulty and danger. But so far from any delay being justly imputable to the Go vernment, every year brought them nearer to the attainment of the object which all had in view, namely, to give to the colonists of Australia those institutions under which he hoped to see them permanently satisfied.--( Hear, hear.) He had always enter tained a doubt whether it was proper to make these colonies convict colonies—(Hear, hear)—and he was happy to be able to state that the Government had taken decided steps to put a stop to this system; that steps had been taken by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department, in conjunction with the Colonial Office, to put a decided stop to the system of sending convicts to New South Wales ; the greater number would not new be detained there, but sent to Norfolk Islaed. —( Hear, hear.) He agreed with his Hon. Friend that the emigration of free labour ought to be encouraged, which alone could supply the deficiency which would be caused by the cessa tion of convict labour, and enable the colonists to continue in that course of unexampled properity which they had hitherto enjoyed.—(hear, hear.) On this point, therefore, he could net allow that the Government had abandoned their duty. The population of the colony of New South Wales was about 100,000. In 1838, the number of emigrants sent from this country was 10,000, and this year it was intended to con tinue emigration on the same scale. This it was quite plain must produce considerable effect, not only in supplying labour to the colonies, but in improving the general mass of the popu lation. He now came to the charge of having invaded the land fund, and applied it to other purposes, and of having violated the pledge which had been given, that whatever might be the demand for police and other purposes, the proceeds of the land should not be diverted. He denied that any such pledge had been given, and hoped that by economy the finances of the country might be put on such a footing as would in future years leave the whole sum applicable to the purposes of emigration. It was plain from the manly statement laid before the Legisla tive Council by Sir G. Gipps, that the finances of New South Wales were not in a satisfactory state ; but it was to be remem bered that last year was a season of very great drought, which had been so severely felt that labourers were actually waiting in the streets of Sydney for hire, which they could not obtain. Again, it was to be borne in mind that where the Government had large establishments, as they necessarily had in convict countries, the expense very greatly depended upon the price of contracts—they, in consequence of the drought, were very heavy last year, and had added to the difficulties ; still he was of - opinion, along with Sir George Gipps, that the difficulties were merely temporary, and they would yield to the application of a strict and unflinching economy. That would be applied, and he thought it was fortunate that they . had at the head of the Councils in that country, so honest, straightforward, and persevering a man as Sir G. Cripps--he had no doubt the present difficulties would soon cease. The question must, no doubt, come before them next year, though he was loath to give a pledge which it might not be in the power of the Goverment to redeem next year. He agreed, howeier, that it was most important that as soon as possible a more free Government should be ex tended to the colonies of New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, and he would be most happy if the information laid be fore the Government would allow them to do so next Session. Mr. WARD said, after the discussion which had already taken place, lie would confine himself to the single question of the land revenue. Since the debate upon his colonial resolutions he had met with a Treasury minute, which directed that the re venue derived from land should be applied to the payment of the excessive expenditure of the colony, and that the present difficulties must cease before any of it was applied to the purposes of emigration. Now, his Hon. Friend had said that 10,000 free labourers had been sent out last year, and that 10,000 more would be sent out th;s year under the auspices of Government. Now, he did not know how to reconcile these conflicting matters. He had heard with pleasure what had fallen from his Hon. Friend respecting the e ae v sv i ia l i s sm o u f pa r n n Na s p e aw o r s ttsaaott statesman an E; Wales butv r b y tyh w teh O y r d did him great c r e dit both` chi raysi;sgteamlreoadf.ytriannfisipetoedrtatthionuse,. they were now bound to hold sacred the land fund for ~ t he purpose of doing all in their power to, eradicate those evils - by infusing a large portion of free labour into the• colony._ that was also demanded for the prosperity of the colony. If the land revenue were allowed to go into the general colonial revenues, it would lead to an excessive expenditure, and it would never again be available for its legitimate purposes. He was inclined:to give every credit to Sir George Gipps, but he thought they would be rendering him a• service by pointing out to him the defined and legitimate object to which the pro ceeds of these land sales should be applied.. The- , -NOble Lord ' he knew thought it just that the expenses of the colonial police should be defrayed out of these land sales 4 but it should be recollected that the necessity for that police was occasioned by the necessity that existed for keeping down that portion' of the population which had been forced upon them by the Go vernment of this country. The Noble Lord here stated that he considered the land revenue in the light. of the capital of the colony, and that it ought to be applied as such ; but he thought when he made this declaration that the Noble Lord could hardly have hail in his mind the Treasury Minute to which he had alluded. Sir George Gipps had expressed himself in as strong terms regarding this Minute as he (Mr. Ward) could have done, for he had described it as re. versing the order of things, and making emigration the last in stead of the first charge upon the fund. Though he could not oppose this Bill he trusted his Right Hon. Friend would see the advantage of endeavouring to infuse as large an amount of new blood into the colony as possible. In the present Bill his Right Hon. Friend had been obliged to provide for such alterations in the Jury law as would prevent eman cipationists from serving on Juries. The ill success of the experiment which had been tried, of permitting su c h persons to serve on juries, led him to doubt that the expectations of his Hon. Friend opposite as to a representive Government being granted to the colony could be realised, until his Right Hon. Friend should have succeeded in making the good, the virtuous, and the honest portion of the inhabitants so prepon derate in the colony ag to give a tone to society. The whole taxation of New South Wales was indirect at ' amounted to less than it had in 1837, therefore they could only the presQmoment.L(Hear, hear.) In 1838 it had hope t o ra i se t h e revenue b y ca lli ng a new population into exis tence, when they would again find the revenue of the colony rising. He hoped some explanation would be given as to the manner in which the 10,000 emigrants were to be sent out this year, and he trusted that some assurance would be given that the Treasury Minute to which he had alluded would not be carried into effect without having received much greater consideration than had been already given to it. Lord HOWICK felt called upon to address a few words to the House, after what had fallen from his Hon. Friend. He (Lord Howick) had said that he considered the best and wisest appli cation of the land revenue was to the encouragement of emi gration, as being the most advantageous to the colony ; but it was requisite that the colony should provide for those expenses which were not fairly chargeable on this country, and the police force was one of them. It bad been said that the necessity for that force had been imposed upon them by this country. That was true; but it should be remembered that convict labour was the great source of wealth to the colony, and if they had the advantage on the one side, it was but fair that they should pay the expenses of the establish ment necessary to keep these persons in order. It certainly would have been more advisable if the colonists would have raised funds for these purposes by means of local rates ; THE SUN, LONDON, TITI4SDAY,_,ArGITST 6, 1Q:39 but if they refused to act thus wisely, it was no reason for throwing their expenses upon th e mo th er country.— Wear. ) As to the emigration of 10,000 persons this year, although there might be a temporary deficiency of funds arising from the land revenue, yet there was a moral certainty of its being made good at no very distant period. He was surprised at the statements as to the expenditure of the colony, made by his Hon. Friend opposite, who really did know something about those things. In his comparison of the expenditure of this coun try and the Australian colonies, he had forgotten to mention that in the amount of the expenditure he had included the expenses of wards, of police, of the Church establishment, and of various other matters, the whole of which, i n t hi s country , were pro -Tided for by ocal funds, so that at least one-half of the expen diture might be struck out of his list. He had also forgotten the different state of the two societies. The high rate of labour in the Colony made it necessary to pay high salaries, in order to secure the services of competent persons in places of trust which could otherwise be obliged to be filled, as had formerly been the case, by convicts still under sentence, which was very objectionable. An attempt had been made to lower the salaries, and the consequence was that all the valu able officers had resigned, as they could get better pay from the merchants. It should be recollected that the whole of the re venue of the colonv was raised by indirect taxation upon the luxuries of life. He felt convinced that the expenditure of New South Wales afforded no ground for the accusations of jobbing and extravagance. The Bill was then read a third time. On the question that the Bill do pass, Mr. C. BULLER said he wished to know whether the words introduced in Committee relative to juries would have the effect stated by the Honourable Member for Sheffield, as he considered it a most objectionable way of settling a dispute which had given rise to much debate in the colony, and he trusted his Right Honourable Friend would give the House an assurance that he did not intend to give the Go vernor power to alter the whole constitution of Juries. Tho N.ble Lord had certainly pointed out some verbal inaccuracies ( A laugh)—in his statement, but still he was of opinion that the expenditure of the colony was enormous in proportion to the expenditure of the United Kingdom. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that doubts had existed as to the power of the Governor relative to the constitution of Juries, which had been decided one way in New South Wales, and another way in Van Dieman's Land—and these words which were permissive were to clear up those doubts. He agreed with his Hon. Friend as to the impropriety of taking this method of settling the question as to emancipationists serving on J uries. Lord HOWICK considered the expression " verbal inaccu racies" as exceedingly mild in characterising mistakes to the amount of several thousands pounds.—(A laugh.) The Bill was then passed. MFTROPOLITAN POLICE COURTS BILL. _,. . _ Mr. BARNARD wished, before the Report was brought up, to have the Bill re committed, in order to introduce a clause giving compensation to the Clerks of Justices. On the Order of the Day being read, Mr. FOX MA ULE said that before going into the Bill, he would state that he had told the Honourable Member if he found the House inclined to favour his views of the subject he (Mr. Fox Manic.) would not oppose him—and the Hon. Member had proposed a clause in Committee which was invalid ia point of form ; since that he (Mr. F.,p. ) had inserted some words providing that where, in consequence of the establishment of any Metropolis Police Court, the clerk to the justices shall lose his situation, he shall be appointed clerk to the. Metropolis Police Court. Mr. BARNARD approved of the clause, as fax as it went, but thought it ought to go farther, as he considered these clerks were as much entitled to compensation as the ilagistrates. On the motion of Mr. F. MAULE, a proviso was added to clause 3, directing the names of all Alagistrates who re signed, or were superseded, to be hid on the Table of the House within six weeks. On the motion of illr. AGLIONBY, in clause 4, it was provided that in place of baristers of seven years' standing alone being eligible, any gentleman who had practised at the bar four years, and as a special pleader fur three years previously, might also he eligible. Several verbal amendments were made. Mr. HODGES moved the omission of that part of clause 54, which limits appeal to certain cases only. Mr. PR YM E seconded the motion. Mr. FOX MAULE defended the clause, which was strictly in accordance with the recommendation of the Committee. _ After a few words from Mr. Hawes, Lord Hotham, Mr, Hodges, and_Mr. Estcourt, the House divided, when the num• hers were— For the motion 6 Against it Majority in favour of the clause 34 After a few verbal amendments the Report was received, and the Bill ordered to be engrossed, after which the House ad journed al a Quarter p as t Three until Five oClock. The SPEAKER resumed the Chair at Five o'Clock. Mr. GRINISDITC H presented a petition from Stoke-upon-Trent against the profanation'of the Sabbath. Sir E. WI Lmo'r presented petitions from Nuneaton and several other places against the Poor-law Bill. HILL COOLIES. Sir JAMES GRAHAM, seeing the Right Ho nourable Gentleman, the Under Secretary for the Colonies in his place, wished to put a question to him relative to the treatment of Hill Coolies in the island of Demarara. The Right Hon. Gentleman would re collect that some time since he had stated that the papers on the subject would be laid on the table of the House ; if they had been since that time, they had out yet been circulated. Since that period he understood a letter had been written by two gentlemen connected with Demerara, justifying :he treatment of the Hill Coolies. He wished to know from the Right Hon. Gent. whether he had re ceived any such letters, and if he bad whether he should have any objection to lay them on the table of the House, together with the other papers ? Mr. L A BO UCHE RE had received a communication from two gentlemen in Demerara, and he should have no objection to lay these letters, together with all the other papers, on the table of the House. 111r.S HA W, seeing the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland in his place, wished to know when it was likely the arrears to the Irish Clergy would be paid, also whether any steps had been taken to recover the arrears due by the landlords to the Irish Clergy ; and also whether the Clergy had any chance of receiving the 100,0001. Lord MORPETH Was in hopes that the arrears to the Irish Clergy would be settled without delay. With respect to the proceedings by the Attorney-General against the landlords in Ireland, he thought that re quired further consideration. With respect to the latter question, he could not hold out much expectation that either Parliament or the Government would think itself justified in voting the 100,0001. Lord G. SOMERSET inquired when it was likely the Metropolis Improvement Bid would be proceeded with. Mr. BARlNG—Probably this evening. On the motion of Lord MORPETIL th© Consta bulary Force (Ireland) Bill was read a hind time and passed. _ _ The Report on the Dublin Police Bill W&3 receive and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. Lord U. SOMERSET wished to ask the Noble Lord whether there was any chance of the Poor-law Com mission Bill, or the Bastardy Bill, being brought on this evening. Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not suppose there would be time for proceeding with any Bill after the Committee of Supply. PROPERTY TAX. On the Order of the Day being read for going into Committee of Supply, Mr. FIE LDEN rose to move, " That the taxes im posed on the necessaries of life in this country, render them so dear that the working people cannot command a sufficiency to supply their daily wants : That the taxes . imposed on raw material are an obstruction to the pro ductive industry of the country ; and that the inability of the people to purchase a sufficiency of the things which their labour would produce, acts injuriously upon those who employ the people, and compels them, from want of a market at remunerating prices, to limit the employment of many, and refuse employment altogether to others, who are anxious to earn their bread by the labour of their hands, and who, from being denied employment, are compelled to accept relief from the parish in any way that they can obtain it, or starve : That such a state of :things is detrimental to the productive classes, 'and dangerous to all other classes : That, according to a return ordered to be printed by this Hduse, on the 10th day of June last, the taxes raised ks Excise and Customs on the following articles amounted, in the year ending the sth day of January 1839, to tht. sum of 17,614,543/. ; viz. on malt, 4,232,0801.; hops, 302,906/.a.50ap,810,813/.; candles and tallow, 183,6694; coals, sea-borne, 7,632/.; sugar and m01a55e5,4,893,6841.; tea, 3,362,035/.; coffee, 684,979/. ; butter, 251,665/. ; cheese, 113,9071. ; currants and raisins, 300,828/. ; corn, 186,7601. ; cotton wool and sheep's, imported, 725,4451 ; silk, 254,874/. ; hideS and skins, 61,4781. ; and or paper, 541,7881.: That justice, sound policy, and hu manity require that the laws imposing these taxes should be repealed, the Corn-laws abolished, and that the revenue should in future be raised by an equitable assessmen ton property." The Hon. Member in his usual low tone ofvoice proceeded to conten.d, that it was the duty of that House to redress the grievances of the people, but that hitherto the applications of the people to that House to relieve their distress had been totally disregarded. The wages of labourers were from .ss. to 65., 75., Bs., or 9s. a week, in the country. To obtain relief under the Poor-law, it was required as a proof of destitution, that the party should enter a workhouse. Was that fair deal. ing? If' working men sent representatives to that House, they might have a chance of equal and just legis lation. There were instances without number of la bourers with a wife and seven or nine children each, hav ing only at the rate of 2d. and 3d. per head, per day, for their maintenance. With persons in such a condition it would be in vain to attempt means of coercion. The only way to quiet them would be to redress their grievances, and the sooner the House considered them the better. The country was on the brink of a pre cipice, pregnant with danger. Millions of the lower classes were in such a condition of distress that, to many of them, life itself was an intolerable burden. Taxation had arisen to an enormous amount, and by the monetary system which had been adopted, nine bushels of wheat were now required to pay 31. of taxation which in 1818 would have been satisfied by five bushels. They might increase their police, they might increase their army, but the people would be too strong for them. He begged them to do what was right and just by the people. He b eseec h ed t h em no t to permit th e great weight of tax a ti on fall on t h e poor , b u t on th e r ch and o n for wealthy. th e pote r T ct i protection e war f property,had be abegun thereforean d car ried it was but fair that prop erty s h ou ld b e called on t o p ay the interest of the debt which had been incurred for that purpose. For these reasons he would recommend the abolition of all those taxes which pressed so hardly on t'ie poor, and the imposi t i on o f a property tax in their place. Mr. WILLIAMS rose to second the motion, which he regretted had not been brought forward at an earlier period of the Session. He had recently had occasion to express his dissatisfaction at the acts of the Government, but he was convinced that the Members of that House would never fairly put a stop to the career of extravagance until the taxes should be fairly borne by themselves At present all the weight of taxation pressed upon the lower and middle classes, and to a considerable ex tent the richer classes were exempt, and therefore Members of that House were indifferent to every pro position tending to check the increase of taxation. He wished to draw the attention of the House to a list of articles which afford thirty millions of taxes out of fifty one millions which were levied on the inhabitants of this country, and which thirty millions fell in much greater proportion on She poorer classes than the rich. These articles were spirits, malt and hops, sugar, tea, to bacco, butter, and cheese, excise licences, and corn. No Member could deny that the taxes on these articles fell more heavily on the poor than on the rich. The tax paid by the poor man on his beer, which was to him a necessary, amounted to 130 per cent., while the rich man paid on the luxury of wine a tax of only 25 per cent., and on champagne and claret, which were exclu sively the wines of the rich, the duty did not exceed 20 per cent. The coarse sugar of the poor man paid precisely the same amount of taxation as the refined sugar of the rich man, and tea paid a tax of 2s. Id per pound, being 200 per cent. of taxation on the poor man's coarse tea while the rich man's fine tea paid only 30 per cent. Was such a system of taxation as this a just one ? Tobacco paid a tax of 300 per cent. Butter and cheese were the food of the poor man, and taxation was so placed on those articles as to fall m ore particularly on the poorer classes. Had the poor man been properly represented in that House, would such injustice as this have been permitted ? How could they hope to obtain relief until they should have a voice in the election of representatives in that House? Justice to the poorer classes demanded that they should be relieved from this unequal pressure of taxation, and that taxes should be imposed upon property in a just and equitable manner. But the Members of the House would never tax themselves, and could they wonder at the dissatisfaction which was spread ing through the country ? These were the griev ances which the people complained of; and this was the reason they sought to have a voice in the elec tion of Members to that House. He thought such a case had been made out as called upon the House to afford relief. The Hon. Member for Wolverhampton had, in a manner which did him infinite credit, called the attention of the House to the enormous taxation imposed by the Corn-laws, amounting to 18 millions per annum. This might be called a tax levied on the poor and payable to the rich. Eighteen millions per annum was screwed, out of the pockets of the poorer classes by these laws, and transferred to thecoffers of the rich. One observation he would make as to the operation of the malt tax. In 1836 it amounted to 7,251,0001. , in 1837 to 5,596,0001. ; and in 1838 to 5,200,0001. The difference between the malt tax in 1836 and last year was upwards of one million sterling. If anything, therefore, was wanting for the purpose of showing a decrease in the consumption of the articles of life of the poor man, he thought that would show it. But what was the case with respect to the consumption of wine? Why, that had increased one-tenth ! The Hon. Mem ber concluded by seconding the motion. Mr. T. .ATT WOOD supported the motion. The House had refused to increase the means of the people to an equality with their burthens, it had refused to make any alteration in the elective franchise, it had de nied improvement to the condition of the industrious classes, and it bad denied them free representation ; and having done that, his Hon. Friend called upon it to take upon itself the responsibility of taxation as well as representation. He would give his cordial support to such a motion. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For Mr. Fielden's motion l5 Against it 5B Majority against the motion — 43 During our exclusion from the gallery we understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer denied the accuracy of the statements of the Hon. Member who had brought the motion forward. EDUCATION (IRELAND.) On our re-admission into the gallery we found Mr. DI L LON BRO IV NE on his legs, bringing for ward the motion of which he had given notice. He felt sorry that he had not a different opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the motion which he rose to bring forward, but the fact was, that it was grounded upon a petition which would not be received by the House, and which was presented so late in the Session that he could find no certain opportunity except the present for bringing the matter forward. He felt that he was about to give expressions to sentiments which would place him in no very desirable position either as regards the general mind or, what was more ambitioned by a speaker, the general ear of the House, for he expected to meet in every quarter considerable resistance. He felt he would be opposed on the oppo site of the House, because Hon. Gentlemen might sup pose that the object of his motion was to maintain the stability of the Irish Church by civil enactments, when he only desired to assert its religious independence, and he did not expect a more favourable reception from the varied sections that compose this side of the House. Her Majesty's Government would oppose him, some because they were as hostile to the progress of the Catholic faith as the most orthodox of Hon. Gentle. men opposite, though they expressed themselves in different terms ; and others because his proposition was obviously opposed to the present sys tem of national education inlreland, of which the present Government were sponsors ; and he felt he would be opposed by another section at this side of the House. whom he might denominate as the English and Irisl. Protestant movement party. Many of them deriving their belief so much from private interpretation, had in common, no definite principles of faith, and conse quently thought it was impossible (and under the cir cumstances he agreed with them), to adopt any reli gous instruction agreeable to all ; and others, because they wished to unite with secular instruction certain moral instruction, based upon a vague, abstract, indefinite principle which he could not comprehend, a species of compound extract of all religions, a sort of ethical quin tescence, which they declared to be common to every creed, but which he feared would be recnnized by none. And he felt he would be opposed by another section upon this side of the House, which gave him much cause of regret, many of whom were his friends, most of whom were his fellow-countrymen, and all of whom were his fellow-credents. They would oppose him not because they did not wish as sincerely as he did to maintain the religious independence of the Roman Catholic Church, not because they did not acknowledge as fully as he did, that no religious instruction can be received by Roman Catholic children incompatible with Ecclesiastical autho rity, and not because they did not see as clearly as he did, that the time was fast approach ing when, arising out of very potent reasons, the whole Catholic hierarchy of Ireland would repudiate the pre sent system of national education in Ireland, but that they might think that dwelling upon a subject of this peculiar nature was imprudent in a Roman Catholic, because the member of that Church who did so might be designated by those who confounded civil with re ligious duties, as a political bigot when he was only a maintainer of the religious rights and privileges of his Church. And for another reason those gentlemen might censure him because they saw him in opposition to a favourite Government upon a favourite scheme, and saw him assailing her Majesty's Government in Ireland in a quarter in which they were found very vulnerable in his country. Indeed it had been said, as he had been informed by an Honourable Member, a particular friend of his, that in consequence of his having held peculiar opinions upon this subject that he had risked his seat. However the Hon. Gentleman might have used the ex pression he could not 89 far forget early associations as to reciprocate the wish. It had also been stated that whatever might be his private opinions he had no right to act in opposition to his party ; this was a system of political philosophy he could never adopt, because ,t resolved itself to this, that a supporter of Government should never have an opinion of his own. In fact, in political matters, somewhat of the doctrine of the barbarian who burned the library of Alexandria ,hould be established—that we should seek all wisdom and principle in the Koran given from the Treasury benches, and that it ought to be esteemed profanation to look beyond it—that a man was not to think or act for himself, or to propound any scheme emanating from his own mine—that he was never to vindicate his own principles ; though, Sir, at the present time, whatever may be a mans opinions, and however they may be op. posed to his party, and how ever s l av i s h ly and mechani cally he may serve that party, he need not, in the great vaccination of parties, despair of seeing those opinions vindicated ; for, in their gyrat;ons, they are sure to come round to him, for he sees men advocate to-da) the antithesis of that which they declared yesterday to be the to kalon of political morality. Therefore, he saw that he would meet with considerable resistance from all sides, and little sympathy from any ; but he hoped that the House, which was always inclined to act generously, would accord to him its attention, particu irly because he stood alone, and did not hearken to the voice that would whisper to him, " For party give up what is due to mankind." In treating this important subject he would indulge as little as possible in any polemical matter ; he would only introduce it as far as it was necessary for the illustration of his argument. He knew that religious discussion was displeasing to the House, but yet it was rather anomalous to exp ec t the entire rejection of it, when the House legislated upon religious matters. They were to consi der this subject first as regarded the combination of religions and secular instruction, and secondly, how that combination should be made so as to sink the see tarian prejudices of all parties, and, as far as h s motion extended, the peculiar state of society in Ireland. He begged to be understood that he did not wish , to press upon the consideration or th e H ouse an y peculiar reli gious opinions of his own ; he did not wish to maintain whether these religious opinions were right, or those religious notions were wrong, but that such being the notions of the majority, that we should to a great ex tent legislate accordingly. He did not wish to attach any peculiar importance to any peculiar opinions, but he wished to maintain, that whatever were the opinions of the masses, their laws should bear a neces sary reference to them. Whatever might be his private opinions, he would not in that place de clare that the Irish people were right in submit ting the religious instruction of their children to the pastors of their Church ; but that such being the feelings of the Irish people we could not establish a system of national education repugnant to those feel ings. He was of opinion that secular and religious education should be combined. He held this opinion simply as a citizen, without even referring to higher considerations, for if he h,d been an unbeliever he would maintain that religion was the best engine which could be used to promote the prosperity and happiness of the State. For he always thought that those moral fears excited in the youthful mind by early in struction, did more in after life to deter men from the commission of the greater crimes than all the penal enact ments with which you could crowd your statute-book. Many a man, instigated by bad passions to take away the life of his fellow, would despise the authority of the law, and, perhaps, anticipate its judgment with his own hand, did he not, in consequence of early impressions, fear a tribunal which is not of this world, and an inevi table justice whose vigilance never sleeps, and whose course cannot be diverted. Religious instruction being combined with secular, the next consideration was how could that combination be best made to suit the sectarian prejudices of all parties. Could it be done under a lay supervision ? The Government say they will adopt a Committee on authority common to all, and ! communicate religious instruction common to all. Could this be done in a community composed like this, of mul titudinous sects, some of whom acknowledged Church authority, and some of whom did not ; and many of whom differed in essentials ? Those who did not re cognise any Church authority, might receive religious instruction however it came ; but those who did ac knowledge it would repudiate this joint-stock company in religion. Where they differed in essentials,could you find any religious instruction common to all ? To achieve that desirable undertaking, you should discover some resting place so elevated above all sectarian pre judices, where each could find a neutral ground to join in bonds of amity. Could you find this neutral ground between the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England ? Can you find for them any principle common to both, which they consider so paramount above all others that they will reject the consideration of all others to obtain instruction upon this ? You will, perhaps,say this principle is the abstract question of re demption. Now, Sir, the Roman Catholic is bound to consider that a belief in the sacrifice of the mass, and in the seven sacraments is as essential to salvation as a belief in the redemption, and any Catholic teacher •who is conscientious, would be obliged to inculcate this principle. Therefore, you should exclude Catholic teachers from giving religious in struction, or you should employ men who ought not to to be trusted. Amongst the other Dissenters, are there any brighter hopes of coming to an understanding ? Suppose there were established in this town a school upon your joint-stock principle amongst a community which comprehends different sects—members of the Es tablished Church, Pre.byterians, Socinians. and Uni tarians—and that the majority (and it is no very remote contingency) were Unitarians; suppose Mr. Fox, the Unitarian preacher, were chosen as the spiritual in structor. Now, Sir, Mr. Fox declared—he, (the Hon. Member) used the expression with the greatest reverence —speaking of the godhead of the Saviour, " that our Saviour was merely a prophet ; that he was the first radical Reformer of his time ; and that if he were in carnate in those days, he would be taken up as a Char tist!" Could any Protestant, could any Roman Ca tholic, could any Christian parent submit his child to receive religious instruction from this man And Mr. Fox would have as good a right as any member of the Established Church to lay claim to be made religious instructor under the joint-stock company in religion. Therefore, he thought that secular and religious instruction could not be combined under a lay supervision. And then be came to the peculiar state of society in Ireland ; he was not cognizant of any country less calculated from its social condition to receive a combined system of religious education. There had been two parties in Ireland long contending, the one for equality, the other for domination ; and religion was the weapon they most constantly made use of in their conflicts. When civil concessions were granted on the one side, and when licentious power was bridled upon the other, the state of things was not much im proved. Catholic emancipation and the suppression of Orange societies did not much improve the moral con dition of the country ; for afterwards two evil passions raged the least calculated to promote that object, arid the most to disturb the social order—eon one side the keen memory of wrong, and, on the other, the sullen mortification engendered by the loss of power. Those passions are ever fermenting, being kneaded by the vigilance of one party or another, and however they may assume to-day the aspect of tranquillity, like the yeast of the housewife a small portion is always laid by to feed the excitement of to-morrow. Under those circumstances how can you adopt a system of religious education common to all and acceptable to all ? Will those who have lost power receive religious instruction from their Helots, or will those who have pined equality allow their former tyrants to minister to them ? No more than will the emancipated negroes of Jamaica (and we know this from sad experience) re ceive their laws prescribed to them by their former task masters. No, Sir, there cannot be adopted a joint system of education in Ireland. Any system of educa tion you adopt in Ireland must have respect to the Roman Catholic religion. There are seven millions, forming the majority of the population of that country any education you may introduce must respect the feel ings of that majority, or as far as they are concerned it will be inoperative. They cannot receive religious instruction except from their pastors or persons accre dited by them, because every Roman Catholic is obliged to submit with implicit obedience to the au thority of his Church. That implicit obedience has procured for the Church its most distinguishing mark, its unity, which has been undisturbed by time, and space, and clime, and taste, and language ; which has adapted it to flourish under every Constitution,while it can be affected by none. But, Sir, let us take those opinions from the Catholic hierarchy themselves. In 1826 the Catholic Bishops in Ireland assembled in synod, and after frequent conferences with Government, promulgated certain resolutions as the analysis of their aggregate opinions, and as an example to their flocks. I shall take the liberty of reading a short extract from those resolutions :—" That the admission of Protestants and Roman Catholics into the same schools for the purpose of literary instruction, may, under existing cir cumstances, be allowed, provided sufficient care be taken to protect the religion of Roman Catholic children, and to furnish them with adequate means of instruction- That in order to secure sufficient protection to the reli gion of Roman Catholic children, under such a system of education, we deem it necessary that the master of each school in which the majority of the pupils profess the Roman Catholic faith, be a Roman Catholic; and that in schools in which the Roman, Catholic children form only a minority, a permanent Roman Catholic as sistant be employed, and that such master and assistant be appointed upon the recommendation, or with the express approval, of the Reenhan Catholic Bishop of the diocese in w hi c h t h ey are to be employed; and further, that they, or either of them, be removed upon the representaticth of such Bishop. The same rule to be observed for the appointment or dismissal of mistresses ,and assistants in female schools. That in conformity with the principle of protecting the religion of Roman Catholic children, the books intended for their particular instruction in religion shall be selected or approved of by the Roman Catholic Prelates, and that no book or tract for common instruction in liters 1 ture shall be introduced into any school in which Ro man Catholic children are educated, which book or tract may be objected to on religious grounds by the Roman Catholic Bishop of the diocese in which such school is established. That, appointed as we have been by Divine Providence tv watch over and pre serve the Catholic faith in Ireland, and responsible as we are to God fur the souls of our flocks, we will in our respective dioceses withhold our concur. rPnce and support from any system of education which will not fully accord with the prin. cip!es expressed in the foregoing resolutions." Such, Sir, were the resolutions passed in the year 1826, by the Irish Bishops assembled in Synod; their opinions are there given distinctly upon the terms upon which they are willing to receive Government assistance for the purposes of national education. 'These opinions have not. since been altered, and they are not to be mistaken. They declare that they will not recognize my system of education, except with the following pro isions they will not allow Catholics to be educated in the same schools with Protestants, unless that there is a Catholic teacher appointed where the inajority are Roman Catholics, and that when Roman Catholics only form the minority that there is ap pointed a permanent Catholic teacher, approved of by the Bishop of the diocese, ant subject to removal upon his recommendation. These principles are as distinctly opposed to the regulations of the Board of National Eltication in Ireland as principles can be ; but it may he said that the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland have and that, when on a late ccea . stiloten:ecderthtaeiior resolutionsopinions hostile to the Board were pro. posed by the Archbishop of Tuam, that t h,, s , resolutions were negatived by a majority. Thi s i s a fact. But a minority of 8 supported the propositions of Dr. WHale, which would, independently of other considerations, be a sufficient reason aloHe to prove that the national system of education could not be general!) efficacious, for those Bishops superintend districts which comprehend one-third of the population of Ireland, and they have concurrent with them in opinion a large ma jority of the members of the E s t a bli s h e d Church ; and the majority of Bishop,. in approvi o: of it, gave h•it qualified approval, and subject to a reservation which must be ultimately fatal to the system. They said, we EvEN I NiG ,11)1111fIN. Will not disapprove of the Board, however it may lay down principles discordant; for as its regelations de-, pend upon civil enactments, we are not ece'esiastically rosponsibie for it. ; but it will be our duty :o see that practically it does not operate incompatiley with the authority of our Church. We do not wish to destroy it, because we wish to make use of it ; but vse shall only make use of it in strict accordance with our ovse principle!. lVe will assert primarily our own authority, and stand in a position as if it never existed. In our clerical capacities, it is not necessary we should be cognizant of its existence. We will resolve that the children of our Church shall be educated in our faith after that fashion which their Bishops will approve of. We will receive pecuniary assistance if, under the circumstances, it is offered to us, we care not from what quarter it comes, or from what Board, however constituted, as to its fundamental principles, provided it does not inter fere with us in its practical operations. Therefore the Bo ird stands in this position : it has eight Bishops sepa rating from it because it is not established upon certain principles, and the remainder of the Bishops will hold no connexion with it unless those principles are put into operation. Therefore unless you adopt. the sugges tion in this resolution which he proposed, you exclude more than one third of the population of Ireland from the benefits of your system, and unless in your prac tice you follow the spirit of t his resolution, you ex clude almost the whole of the population. This you do under any circumstances. But he had strong reason to believe that Haut approval had been given by the majori!y of the Bishops to the Board, with a reservation which would prove fatal to the system. The matter was refsrred to a higher authority, and to one which must necessarily be omnipotent with the ecclesiastics of the Roman Catholic Church, and he believed that the decision, though it was not yet officially announced, was in accordance with the opinions of Dr. But whatever might have been the peculiar decision upon that peculiar case, there were recent circumstances connected with the ecclesiastical history of Europe which rendered it a matter of little doubt. In fact, every day the oppo nents to the Board of National Education were in creasing. It was hut a short time since Dr. 'Miele stood alone ; it was found that eight Bishops adopted his principles when suggested, and when it was generally supposed he would not base had one to support him ; in feet, Catholic hostility to the Board was spreading rap over Ireland. He would take the libtrty of read-- nig an extract from a letter received from a divine of the highest character, and of acknowledged talents ; he was not at liberty to mention the name, as the letter vas only just put into his hands by a party who was not authorised to give its publicity, but it came from an indi vidual not connected with the eight Bishops who were, allied to Dr. .ll. Hale, and it comprehended what he con ceived to be the principal objections to the Board of Education, and given in language better than he could adopt :—" The chief objections to the existing system as far as I can recollect are the following—lst. A combined ,ystem of education on the basis of religion, and yet ex cluding religious peculiarities, must either exclude the Catholic religion altogether, or give offence to some party. 2d. Government interference is bad. 3d. Struc ure of the Board is vicious and sectarian, because a Board, in which there are only three Catholics, does not repre sent in due proportion the Catholic population; because, as is notorious from the errors of the scripture lessons and fifth book of lessons, it affords not a sufficient security for our faith ; because the composition of these books was entrusted to Carlisle, a Presbyterian; and because thp • structure of that Board is a formal recognition of Protest ant aseen4ancy in a Catholic country and national concern. 4th. The system of district inspectors has 'seen objected to. sth. Training school also objec tionable. 6th, Scripture lessons hate been proved to contain heresy and error almost in every page.. The questions appended to them embrace all ex aiting controversies. The notes are saturated with the Calvinistic errors. The text is faithless, corrupt, and un authorized. And the uncontrolled power of the masters in expounding these books makes the thing still more dan gerous. 7th. The sth book of lessons contains theories at variance with Moses, and has been strongly objected to. Bth. The provisions of the existing system have been proved to be at variance with the resolutions of the epis copal body in 1826. 9h. It has been urged also that the fundamental principle of the system is vicious and anti ' Catholic. As the primary object of the system is to unite ill in a forgetfulness of religious destinations, to impart ,cluestion upon neutral grounds, and to thrust peculiar tenets into the contemptuous obscurity of separate in- • struction. Finally, it has been contended, and it is in impres , ion, that nothing but a separate grant will ever satisfy the people of Ireland." Those were the send. ments of a Learned Divine with which he perfectly coincided. He would not allude to the opinions . of Doctor Mg-lalc—they were well known to the House and to the country ; and they were °pi - - . moos which would be respected by every Catholic and. every Irishman, as emanating from a man who was _UP ornament to his Church and to his country, who shone brightest amongst the Catholic hierarchy, and who fille& - the vacancy left in it by Dr. Doyle; indeed the peoples)! Ireland, in mourning for the loss of that great polemical_ champion, might turn to Dr. M'Hale, applying the quota tion made use of on a late occasion by the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, and . when they saw one golden fruit fallen from the parent stem, might exclaim truth— 4' Prieto avulso non_ deficit alter aurius Et Simili frondeseet verge metallo." He thought that the present system of national educa tion could never work, that no power or no art could force it upon the consideration of the people of Ireland. The desire of a favourite Government could not do it. Even the support to it, if given by the great champion of the liberties of his country, would not do it. Nor would it be efl:cted by the bland temporising of Dr. Murray. The policy of Englind had ever been to force upon the Irish people the religion of their conquerors, to Anglo- Saxonize the country in every respect. And the people had shown. under circumstances the most trying, the most unexampled fidelity to their religion. The history of our country proves how assiduously our persecutors pursued their ob ject, and how faithfully the persecuted clung to their altars. In every age and under every circumstance, the history of Ireland is sadly connected with religious per secution, and is brightly illustrative of national fidelity to religion. We ruay.revert to the remotest period, whether our liberties were trampled by the hoof of the heatbeneof under the banners of the cross. There is an evidence of o tl p re on same oobtjheccr. We t on the may orl lookside, b a a n e d k tir f :s o sam e o r r g e e s o s i l o u s t i o t t; ,,, - Cromwell, and from Cromwell to the present time, and while invariably we see the frequent brand cast into the - Temple, as we trace the ravages of the barbarier, up the steep of time, we, at the same time, mark in oter progrees how, still undismayed, the Catholic clung to the sanctuary. Do you think, fox, th at t h at people who have been so faithful to their creed, will permit a proseletysieg Government Board, coming with a smiling face, to under mine their principles ? What they refused to persecutions . will they yield to sophistry and intrigue ? The wolf which,- they repelled, will they now admit into the fold, because' it approaches under sheep's clothing ? Will they desert their Priesthood ? When you passed every law that bi- eotry could suggest and tyranny enforce, to shut the people of Ireland out from religious instruction, did their priesthood desert them? When you endeavoured to put 1 out the mind of Ireland, and when you rendered it penst not alone to educate its Catholic population, but when you declared it to be a crime of peculiar atrocity to educate al minister of religion, did the people then want religious in struction ? They then obtained it—they now will draw it from the same source, and they will not forget that in the days of persecution that that priesthood sought abroad, for their sakes alone, that education which was denied them at home, and collected, even amid the convulsions that agitated England, those seeds which they have scat tered in their native land, the glorious harvest of which Ireland now exhibits in her seven millions of Roman Catholic population. The Hon. Member concluded by , moving," That, to satisfy the conscientious scruples of a large proportion of the Protestant, as well as Roman Catholic population of Ireland, and conciliate to the Board of Na. tional Education in that country the general confidence of the community, it is expedient that this House do recom mend to the Commissioners the discontinuance of the use of the " Scripture Lessons," which are equally offensive to persons of all religious persuasions as a mutilation of the Word of God ; that it be a further recommendation to the Commissioners to adopt in practice the principle of setting .part an hour of each day for the religious instruction of the children of different creeds, to be communicated in se parate sections of the schools connected with the Board. , either by the spiritual pastors of the children respectively, or by other competent persons duly accredited by tbece, and subject to their supervision and control ; that no reli gious instruction be c ommun i cate d to the chldren in such , schools except by their pastors, or by persons so accredited; and that, there being but two Roman Catholics amongst the seven members of whom the Board consists, it is desir able, in order to secure the confidence of seven -eighths of . the Irish people, both with reference to religious instruct. tion, and to the impartial distribution of the funds at the disposal of the Board, that a Roman Catholic divine, ate-- proved of by the body of Roman Catholic prelates in Ire- e land, should be added to the Board of Commissioners." ' . The motion not having been seconded, the House went into a 1)0 .3 0 :1-"? !~ k. .~ ,~ :~' k t!' COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. On the motion that 50,000/. be granted for education id Ireland, Mr. JAMES GRATTAN tiusted that certain returns on this subject would be printed in the course of th e sum mer, and he should then be able to draw the attention O. the House to the matter. Mr. SHAW said, • that it appeared by the testimony On: all sides, that the system of education adopted did net work well.—(No, no.) He had never concealed his objection to the principles of education adopted by the Irish Board,. which recognized the characteristic principle of the I .l ° - man Cath o li c re li g i on, namely, that the Scriptures should not be allowed without restriction, and it repudiated the principl e o f t h e Protestant Church, that they should be unfetter e d. Lord MORPETH trusted that the Hon. M em ber for Mayo w ou ld reco ll ect t h at h i s motion did not find a se-- c , nder. Th e chi e f com pl a i nt o f t h e Ri g h t Hon . Gentle-. man opposite was th a t th e B oar d recogn i sed the grer.t. principle of the Roman C a th o li c Ch urc h i n not adrnit-, ting the unqualified use of th e S cr i ptures, while t h e complaint on the other side was of an oppos i te nature . He thought these complaints were equally un f ounded.. • Mr. M. J O'CONNELL said that i n t h e diocese in which he resided, where the Roman C at h o l ic Bishop h a d Kinked with the Commissioners a n d g i ven his assietanee, the system had done great se rv i ce to the intellect as w ell as the morals of the rising gene rat i on, and it "- been met in the same spirit in other par s of Ireland there would have been an unanimous al 7proval of it. Mr. REDINGTON said t h at tic Catholics looked o n the plan as conferring ou ti' em inestimable good, and as - ;. a boon which tended to u.- prove the state of the country. ----' -,~ • i ,~ y, , ~ i 1 ; ( ;i .; ~f i 1