The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-03 00:00:00

all the wisest men in Europe ° tomether, -they would not make up a Constitution that was .to lerable. The Noble Earl did not mean to state that there was any legitimate ground for the invasion of Naples, but none could dotibt the mischievous effect likely to be produced by a se- . cret Sect. ,It was not the private views of a , secret Sect, confined to the country to which they belonged ; it was the machinations of a secret Sect, extended beyond their own country. If so, the case was materially altered. With respect to the'state of this country, all he had to say was, that in the situation England was placed, Go vernment had taken a correct course. They had asserted the right of independent States to new model their Governments, and they had obverved strict neutrality, if the arffuesent of the Noble Marquess was clearly und erstood, it went to this :—No question of independence could arise in Europe that did not require the interference of this country.. Had that principle been adopted on every occasion ?—No, it had not. Had that always been the case, the interference of Eng land must .have applied to all the objectionable proceedings of Foreign States. The . Noble Earl called to the recollection of the House that most unjust and oppressive measure the partition of Poland.—(Hear, hear I .)—Was there any very strong objection to that partition ? Why did not Parliament raise their voices against that mea sure ? Why not, as men, proud of the indepen dence of their country, oppose it ? The fact was, they felt all the horror such a proceeding could produce in generous minds, but they were not Prepared to go to war. In the instance then brought before the House, it was obvious that remonstrance would have no effect without the power of going to war. The true course of policy ought to be this :---Abandon the question rather than make-an improper remon strance. The short, question for the House to consider was, whether the policy of this country ought to be strict neutraliq or not ? If it was good Policy to be neuter, Parliament could not inter fere, If they did interfere, they would , be the laughing stock of all Europe, unless they , had the means to go to war. , Neutrality was the Proper position for this country, unless a case should arise in which our honour would be in volved. It would then no longer be a matter of hesitation as to the course they would have to pursue. The-Marquis of . .LANSDOWNE replied. He de nied that he, for one, bad ever approved of 'the interference of France with the countries . which the Noble Earl had mentioned. On the:con trary, he had uniformly expressed his decided abhorrence of . the proceedings of that Power which went to overturn, the independence of other States. He denied . that the object of • his motion was to involve this Country in war, Far from that. The true object of his motion was, to induce this. Country to act up to a real neutra lity. Having. once declared that neutrality, it was necessary that this Country should proclaim its disavowal of those principles, a participation in which the Manifesto imputed to it. He denied that he had uttered one expression which could justify the Noble Earl iu charging him with be ing one of those who upheld all revolutions, merely - because they were revolutions. He ad- IPaitted it might be an evil, that Naples was under the necessity of adopting a foreign COnstitUtion nut at the .same he conceived, that if that Consti tution was allowed to work, it would, in the cours e of its operation, be improved by the wis dom of the Parliament and the necessity of the c ircumstances, as they might arise, The Noble Earl apprehended that the existence of the Car bonari beyond the territory of Naples, was but too manifest, and that it would be • productive of evil. If that were the fact, was it to be expected that the present proceedings .of the Sovereigns Would tend to put down tirt sect ? On the con trary, would they not have the effect of produc ing a more general and a more vigorous combi nation, for the purpose of resisting the principles Upon which those Sovereigns acted ?—(Hear, hear.)—And to the formation of such a combina tion the acts of the Sovereigns would give an increased spirit, while the existence of _ the Press, the expedition of intercourse between each country, and the circumstances in which Europe was now placed, would afford it every 'facility. The Noble Marquess then referred to: the instructions which had been given at a former Period to Lord W. Bentinck, by which he was a uthorised to hold-out hopes of independence and: -liberty to the. States of Italy. He referred also to the proclamation dated (20th February, 1 . 81.1, which was issued by the Prince Regent before set ting out with the army before Palermo, to take Possession of Naples, in which a distinct promise Was held out to the people of . the Two Sicilies, l nat by achieving their independence they - *quid acquire for themselves civil liberty.— P'ter these promises, originally held out by l hgland' and confirmed by the Prince Regent, W as it not inconsistent in this country to see Ivith the utmost indiffeaence the liberty of the Sicilies menaced with utter destruction ? Ile Isonteud.d that at least it would become this ( °iintr-y to declare to Austria, and to the world, ►t 3 positive disapprobation of the new interna tional law upon which the Allied Sovereigns 'Shewed themselves disposed to act. Such, a de claration as this would not necessarily involve this Country in war. Lord HoLLAxo, before the question was put, begged to ask, whether the Noble Earl had re ceived any intelligence as to the proceedings of Sir William A'Court upon the instructions which he had received from home, whether be had de - livered the Declaration to the Prince Vicar, and whether the Noble Earl had any objection to lay a copy of the instructions on the table of the House. The Earl of LIVERPOOL objected to lay the instructions on the table, and, as to the conduct of Sir Vim. A'Court, he expected despatches from that llinister in a few days, and then his pro ceedings would be perfectly known. The question was then put, and the House di vided. --The numbers were— - --- .... v . ... •• ~..• 4... - For the suotion—Contents Proxies 14-37 Not Content Proxies 42- 8 4 Majority against the Motion Adjourned at HALF-PAST TWELV& O'CLOCK. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The House met at - aboutlour; aud, as usual, *as engaged a considerable time upon Private Bills. • . , Mr. Alderman SMITH obtained leave to tiring in a Bill for repaiririglilaCkfriars' Bridge. Mr. 14013 HOUSE presented a Petition from the Inhabitants of the, Parishes of St. dames; Westminster; -St. George, - Hano ver-square i and St. Marylebone, drimplaining . uf the conduct of a Water Work Company. The Hun. Member observed, that he knew many of the 'inhabitants were at the present. moment in want. of their usual supply of water in consequence of the conduct complained - of. Mr. M. V. TAYLOR defended the conduct of the Water Work Ciinifi . anies, The subjectin question, he said, had been under judicial inquiry in a Court-of Law, and it was not in the power of the 'House to'interfere.. Mr. FREEMANTLE stated his knowledge that many of the inhabitant's of the petitioning' Parishes' 'were -in want of this most essential necessary' for domestic comfort. The Petition was ordered to he referred to the Committee of Inquiry into the conduct of the'Water - Cotitpanies., Mr. DENIk/N'preSetited a petition . from certain [nimbi tants of the' Parish of St. Mary, Newiugtort i . against the New ington -Vestry Bill. - 'Thar petition, the Hon. MeMber stated, was Signed'by 1965 persons while that in faiour of the Bill was signed by only 106 persons. Mr. C. CAL:ITEM' supported the petition, and .observed that as the parish - contained 3000 houses, the 'petition in favour of the Bill conlii nut be—sopposed to express the opinion of the parish. He mentioned this circumstance, that the House might - be induced to give the-prescor petition due weight' when the Bill in - questiOn should cows. under consideration. He underitood - the second- reading would , be moved this night ; and lie certainly should move as- an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. The petition was read - Orra ardered to lie an the table. Mr. CURW EN presented a petition from the inhabitants of Workington against the Education Bill.—Ordered to lie un the table. . Si; ROBERT WILSON presented a Petition from an indi vidual Inhabitant of St. Mary. Newington. against the Vestry Bill of that Parish. The Gallant General said he was satis fied that the Bill complained of was an innovation-upon the rights of the parishioners. It was an c.z• post facts, law in the nature of a Bill of Pains and Penalties. After a few words from Mr. Seijeant ONSLOW, and from Sir K. WlLtigN in explanation, tl►e Petition was read; .and ordered to lie on thelable." AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Mr. BURRELL ! presented a Petition from certain Land 'holders of Su.sex, cow plaining of the present Agricultural Distress.—Ordered to lie on the table. Lord C. MANNERS presented a similar Petition from cer tain Lanitholitcrs of Cambtidgi.. -• Lord 'MILTON supported the petition. He contended'that if a Committee Abut& be appointed on this subject, it should he entirely unrestricted.--q Hear, hear would go far ther, and say, the attention of that emininttee should be par ticularly directed to the state of the taxation which opPressed the agricultural interests. He contended that the mea sure of the resfriration of cash payments had the necessary effect of restricting the circulation of the country, and hrnce it was impossible that in the present state of things the same priees could be obtained fur corn as in former years. If, therefore, _the farmer has to get any relief at all, it could only be eff e cted by diminishing the burthetts of taxation which now pressed on him—(Hear, hear, hear 1 .). — He contended further, that the tlistreis of the farmer at pre sent did not proceed_ from the ,inetlicirncy' of the law, and that lie could oe relieved only by the reduction of the taxa tion. Heslid not mean to say that the burthen should be shifted front the Agricultural Interests to any other class of the community. He was.aWare that all clastes suffered, and the interests of all ought to be consulted by reducing. if pos sible, the interest on- the National Debt, and paring down the general expences of the Country. Mr. CRIPPS contended that the chief cause of the present Agricultural distress was the extraordinary crop of last sea son. Heusi it arose that the price of corn was diminished. It was this reduction of the price of the commodity that caused the diminution:of the circulation, and it wits not, as the Noble Lord contended, the dimiuuti ~,, of circulation that caused the law price of corn. He tecominended a tax on the transfer of stock as a means of :relieving the pressure of tax ation on all other classes. . . Mr:IVESTERN said, that the increased burthrn of the people had rendered nugatory the measures which had been devised for the "benefit of the Agricultural interest. He con tended, that the necessity of the case required a reduCtion in the expenditure of the country. Mr. PEEL said, that he would not now etiter into a defence of the Bill which' he had the honour to jolt - mince, as an early. ,day haft been appointed for the whole'discussion of the subject. He begged only to be considered as not acquiescing in any of the arguments which lia'd been, he thought, rather irregularly introduced 'npun • the presentation of this and some other Petitions against the Currency Mr. A. BARING would follow the example of the Right Hon. Gentlemany'and notenter into the question of the cur rency now, hot he would take this opportunity of:giving notice, that , lie would move an amendment to the motion of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given notice, Ow effect of which motion would be to accelerate the operation of the Currency Bill. The object of hit amendment wou!d be to send the subject once more to a Committee up stairs. , -- (Hear, hear!) Sir C.'BURRELL contended, that it - would be a material alleviatien of the general burihens, if a tax were imputed on the monied property of the country. He stated as an in stance of the manner in which Corn Laws were evaded. that a considerable quantity of corn was smuggled through the Isle of Man. Lord MILTON explained. lie stated, that in his part of the country he never remembered to hate seen so deficieut.a crop.—The petition was laid 'on the table. Sir G. ROBINSON presented a similar petition irons the County of Northampton.—Laid mi the table. NEWINGTON SELECT VESTRY BILL. Mr. H. SUMNER moved the Order of the Day for • the second reading of the Newington Select Vestry Bill. Mr..PLUNKEPT said, the-re was an order which stood for that night, which had excited much anxiety (the. Catholic Committee),'hut which, from the course that was to be taken, was not likely to occupy many niinutes. •He begged•the Hon. Member for Surrey, therefore, to postpone the-Bill, of which he was about to move the second reading. Mr. HOLME SUMNER said, be felt some difficulty on !the snbject, but he was willing to postpone it to Monday, if it might t hen •have precedence. • After a few observations from the SPEAKER, 1%1;:lf0,11E SUNINEIt agreed to postpone the second reading of the Bill until Mon,:ay'next. THE•CATHOLIC CLAINF Upon the Speaker's calling for Mr. Plunkett, there was a loud cry of c' bar, bar, order, order," occasioned by the number of Members who were pressing into the louse. Mr. PLUNIiETT, in rising to move the Order of the Day for the House to resolve' into a Com mittee, to consider the case of the Catholics, ex pressed his intention to follow the course adopt ed on a former occasion, when the House thought proper to accede to the appointment of a Com mittee upon the same subject. In agreeing to go into the Committee, it was not to be under stood, he observed, that any Member was bound in any degree to the Resolutions which were to be proposed, or to any measures which might be founded upon them. Every friend to the peace and harmony of the empire must have been pecu liarly gratified by the good temper and spirit in which this question was discussed by those who opposed it upon a former evening.—(Hear, hear, hear :)--It was clear indeed, from that tem per and spirit, that there was no disposition iu any quarter to give S to the Catholics any thing like unnecessary or vexatious opposition. But it was a question which ought to be calmly and deliberately considered, involving, as it did, the civil rights of an important part of our fellow subjects, and connected, as it . was, with the vital interests of the country. With a view to afford still further means for such consideration, he wished to have the object of those who were friendly to the Catholit Claims distinctly under stood, and therefore he should propose certain Resolutions explanatory of that object. Those _Resolutions . , when promulgated, would serve to guard against any niisapprehension ; and also ) lie hoped, to remove any ,preludicea exist upon this subject. •If thd;nouse should pleaSe to go into the Comthittee. arid agree "tfi'th - Resolutions; it was his intention. to wave that they should be printed ; and as the House would have suflicient, time to examine their Character and tendency in the interval; he meant .to bring forward a, Bill- founded upon them on Tuesday next, : when he should move to' have it read a first time, and .then. :ordered to- be'. printed. —As the Bill .would soon be printed, Mem bers would, have ample, opportunity toe x- amine • its -provisions before_: Monday week, when he meant to move the; second read ' ing 431 it.—.l.le ; hoped that .this arrangement would - suit the convenience of the HOuSe, and prove agreeable to all parties. The Resolutions which .he had to,propose,we.re founded upon the resolution of Wednesday, that the house should resolve itself into a committee,of.the Whole House to consider the state of &law, by which oaths or . declarations are required to be.tak'en or made,. as qualifications_ for the enjoyment of oflices„.Or for the exercise-of civil functions, so far as the same affeci: his Majesty's Roman, Catholic sub jects,:or whether it. would, -be .expedient in any and what manner to alter and modify the ,Same, and .subject. to ,what provisions. ,or regulations ? These. resolutions, indeed, contained a distinct explanation of the state of the law, while the last recognised the justire, and : propriety of making provisions for the security of. the ..Pcotestant establishment. Here the .Right Hon. Gentleman read the Resolutions which he meant to propose in the Committee as follows : 1. That it,appears to this Committee, that by certain Acts passed in the Parliaments of Great Britain_and Ireland respec tively, certain declarations -and affirmatiOns are required to be inade as qualifications ,for the enjoyment of certain offices; franchkes, and civil rights therein mentioned. 2. That such parts of said Oaths as - require a Declaration to be made against the belief Of Transubstantiation, or that 'the invocation or:adoration of the Virgin Mary, or any other Saint, and the sacrifice of the mass, as used in the Church, of Rome, are superstitious and idolatrous, . appear to this Corinnittee to relate to opinions. merely speeulative and. dogmatical;: not af fecting' the allegiance or civil dtsty of the subject, and that the same may.therefore safely be _repealed. a. That it appears to this Committee, 'that in several Acts passed in the Parliaments of - Great Britain - and Ireland respee'-' tively, a certain Oath, commonly called the Oath of Supre macy, is required to be taken, as a.qUidifiaition for the enjoV ment of certain offices, franchises, and civarights,therein men- tioned. 4. That in the said Oath- and Declaration is contained, that no Foreign Prince, Person, Prelate, State, or Potentate, 'ought to have any jurisdiction, power, spperiority, pre-eminence; or authority, Ecclesiastical or Spiritual, within these Realms, 5. That it appears to this Committee, that scruples are enter tained by his Majesty's Roman Catholic Subjects' with respect to taking the said Oath, merely on account of th e wo r d " Spi ritual"being inserted ierein, and that, fur the purpose of re moving such scruples, it would be expedient to declare the sense in which the said word is used, according to the injunc tion issued by Queen Elizabeth, in the first year of her reign, and recognized in the Act of the Ath of her reign, and which, as explained by the 117th of the Articles of. the Church of Eng land, imports merely, that the Kings . of this Realm should'go vern all estates and degrees, committed to their " charge by God, whether they be Ecclesiastical or Temporal; and restrain with the civil sword the stubborn and evil doer. That it is the opinion of this Committee,. that such Act of Repeal and Explanations shonld be accompaniawith SCCII EXCEPTIONS AND ILEGULAT toNs as may be found necessary for preserving unalterably . the Protestant SucceSsion to the Crown, according to the Act for the further limitation of the Crown, and better , securing the Rights and Liberties of the Sub ject, and for maintaining inviolate the Protestant Episcopal -Church of England and Ireland, and the doctrine, government, and discipline thereof, and the Church of Scotland, and the doctrine, worship, government, and'disciPline thereof, as t h e :same are by law respectively established. .The Right lion. Gentleman concluded by moving, that the Speaker should leave the Chair. Mr. PEEL said, .that although he should cer tainly give his opposition to the measure, he could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he would not ,throw any vexatious obstacles in bis way, be cause he was perfectly convinced that such op position was never effectual. With the :Reso lutions, as far as he could collect. their meaning from their being read, be did not concur; but as the object of the Ilon. Gentleman was, to ob. tain a more formal recognition of them, and as it was understood that auy acquiescence . to their being _agreed to in. the s Committee would not preclude any Member from opposing. the prin ciple on a future occasion, he would not ob ject to the, Speaker leaving the Chair. lie hoped he - might be allowed to say a few words, by way of checking the sanguine expectations of those who might raise those expectations, and at the same time to call to the recollection of those who were the most interested, that when at - a former period the house went into a Com mittee upon the subject, by a far larger majority than voted the night ,before the lust, and:the Clause was proposed for the introduction of Ca tholics into Parliament, that Clause was nega tived. In the opposition he_ should give to the Bill, be would endeavour to preserve tltt utmost temperance and moderation, although' he should be decidedly hostile to it ; and in doing this, lie hoped that-temperance would not he inconsistent with firmness. In all the material parts of ,the Resolutions he should be at variance with the Honourable Gentleman. lie. should, however, endeavour so .to conduct himself, that if the Bill should be successful, it should not be converted into a subject of unnecessary triumph ; or, •in case. of its .failure, that it. might not occasion .feelings of exasperation. .{Hear, hear !) Sir GEoIuBILL expressed himself decidedly hostile to the Resolutions, and complained that the notice given for the second reading vas un precedentedly short. It had been fixed .for Monday se'nnight ; and he should certainly move for a call of the House upon-.the day the second reading - took place. it was absolutely necessary. that the whole of the constituents of the country should know in time that the house w4pabout to enter upon so important a discussion. lie would not oppose the Mouse ge ing . into the Committee, but he should certainly persevere in his opposition to the Bill. _ _ . . . Sir J. NEWPORT said, he .could not_ object to the call of the House, but it ought to he, under stood whether any obstacle would be 'thrown in the way of the first reading• It would be better for the Hon. Baronet to move the. call of the House now, reserving to himself the; power of enforcing it .if he thought proper. In avowing his opposition, he was sorry the Hon. Baronet had not followed the excellent example set him by the Hon. Member for Oxford ; who,: while he manfully, expressed hisintention, had at the same time tempered' it by an assurance of. his mo- deration. Mr..'II4ONTAGUF: expressed . his determination to oppose the Bill in all its stages. Lord luzoN observed) that as so much importance was attaol6ll to the second readinit , thist th fit- 5 1 readitte, wouhl ; norhe • • •• ent4 , :taintol the opinidri As the Nolie Lord is ho hail f 31141' sat • • Sir GEOilliEI - E - 111.1..1tAti to mire for the tall of the',l-lonse thott . , Mr. • 1-11)1.M,F. SL'MST.It, tat t o , ± iinpartanee the subjett into con tidertiti4l, su...{ge,ted whether (law alight Ite , conernietitiy fixeo fpr the tec ,,, t reidint;. PLITNNk..I,7*WI„ i he had:fieed NI , o/vhty .ie'nnight for the sili..n'd - rt , at!ii4`.'iiii•aitSe -14 cont:vived thAt th#t woitid hare been most ttini-ertient.—lfiteltint,llooveil nny suec•edin!, day in the week, .it would ph 'dna ha . ve fiery. oilyti to the same objection:. .... Mr. tV.AVYNN thought It t-oftl,ll i te rnpos , ill', f,r i'oe ques tion to hr di:cussed qfuring.tlie pteent . n.cntt:i. • Ile hopcd . Gentlemen. watad-teel it to be their alutyto atieno.,•atol.eun.. sider he'ttiostiotportatit concern , in V.ieir own connties.of nu acCpont, when put in competit.on tv' .. .tit this ;teat Constitu tional goestiiin. • • • • S ttl , loitGE . HILL propoted.thit the sec,nd reading of the Ilill .41toold• he agrd for Monday fortnight: Lord' CASTI.EREAGII proposeil that the lion.. Baronet • g ha n lii H i.,e e fur the Call of the House thivd'oy foOLight: Tie& Hunse then went Into the Connuittee,,when t :la Trsfi• Int,ions before stated wire agreed to. The House tesunied,. when • • ' • ' ....... Mr. BROGT)EN•reported progress, ang when he was about to na►ne a rlay for bringing up the itepu , d, several Mensbets exelai•alArl N.w; now! , • . . . Mr WYNN thought that the Ikport might be brought tip now: ... . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE ;I:ER ssid lie saw no ohjection• to the brining up of the Repot t now, as it was the general understanding that the Resolutions passed merely pro fiirma.• ' . . '1 he Report was then brought up, and each of the Resolu tions living read twice, was ;weed to. , Mr 'PLUNKErf then obtained• leave to bring in a. Bill fou ded on the aforesaid' Resolittions, and the following Mem bers were appointed to bring, it in :--•- Mr: Plunkett, • • Lord Viscount Palmerston, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Wm.,Wyon, . Mr - ,•Tierney; . Sir John N ew ! oirt, Mr C. Geant, Sir Hen. y P tnell, or Sir James Mackintosh, Dr. Pniilimore. Mr. Wilberforce, • . . . . CALI, OF THE HOUSE. Sir GEORGE HlLLethen moved, that the House be called over this day fortnight. •.- • , .. . . . . Mr. ABERCROMBIE was surprised at the opposition made to the proceeding of the Bill. • When he recollected the able manner in which this question had been ,introduced and-dis cussed, be did thick the opposition vexatious. • The CHANCELLOR'of the EXCHEQUER thought that too early a day•could not he fixed •lor. the decision .of the Honse on t v his inipottant.questioni He had heard with ad mirst imp the able discuseion that had taken place, and he was pkirsnaded that tile question 'could uot. be satisfactorily de cided si , ithout the full attendance of Members. The question was then pot and ,agreed to. GRAMPOUND DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL. On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the ]louse went into a Cbunnittee fur the further con.; sideration of this Bill. _ _ After the reading :of several clauses had been gone through; Mr. $. Won•ray . objected to the propoSed qualification for voters in the Borough of Leeds. Ile thought 'being' a householder of the value of 101. a year was too low. When the House decided upon giving the Elective Franchise to a great town, bethought they ought to con sider the principle of qualification, lie would 'restrict the members in proportion to the extent of the popnlation. At the -slime time he would be disposed to give them a body of electors suf ficiently inimerous ; and he thought that if the qualification were restricted to `2Ol. real Value,' it would include - every decent tradesman, and leave the number of voters to ' the amount of three thousand. For instance, he .would not heSitate to say that he objected to such an extensive dis tribution of the franchise as Was In' Westminster. This was his view of it ; but he would not offer the suggestion as' an' amendment at present. He would defer that to another stage 'of the Bill. Lard ; 11111.ToN hoped the • Committee would . allow him Co express his satisfaction at the pre sent mode of reform. ile considered' it one of the great advantages of this bill, that it was founded on constitutional principles, and for this reason he preferred the bill as it now stood, to the plans which had .been.sua D gested of g ivin g the franchise to one of the ridings of York, or to the hundreds adjoining Gramponnd. differed both from his Hon. Friend (Mr. Wortley) 'and his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) on the sub ject of the' . qUaliffcation for votes in Leeds. He would not say that we noW possessed so Mitch more wisdom than our ancestors that we should depart from the 'practice they had . esta blished in giving time elective franchise to boroughs. He considered it (ionid be much wiser and safer that there shduld be no other qUallfication than . what was usual in scot and lot boroughs. rt should be recollected that the other classes re quired protection, besides those who posseSsed the great property of tile country. The interests of the poorer orders required 'to be attended to as Well us the richer classes of society, ,They were those who suffered most by the distresses of the Country. In sanctioning this*Bill, whiCh mightbe considered as the first of a series for extending the elective fran chise to Boroughs, they ought not to lay down such a principle. 'By extending 'the franchise, 'they would give a greater security against corruption than could be found in small .Boroughs. It W-as immaterial to hiin whether the number of elec tors in. Leeds should he three thousand or six thousand ; but he :thought it would not be deal ing fairly with them if they were not placed on the same footing as all other Boroughs. 'lie should therefore object to any sum being named as a .qUalification. Sir It. 'WILSON- defended the principle of ex tending the elective franchise in this case, as in ail' Other Boroughs. WeStminster had been al hided to, as objectionable in its system. Now he thought the seleCiion of that place was most unfortunate ; for the most disinterested feeling was there evinced in Ole choice of Representa fives. 'ln the Tliice - which he represented, his first election —though he tad to oppose long pos., session, 'great respectability, and private worth— the expencea *of the election did not exceed 7001.; and on the second it did not - exceed . 300/. Ile was 'for an extension of the franchise to all Householders,. as in other Boroughs. Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the House must, by' this time, the subject having 'been so repeated ly before them, be fully- in possession of the Merits of:the Bill, 2.nd would really prefer that the lion. Gentleman (Mr. S. :Wortley) should make his opposition' now. Mr. STCART - WoferLEv could assure the Gal lant General (Sir. R. Wilson) that corruptions prevailed' quite as little among his constituents, is•amono the ; electors of the bbrough which the Gallant General represeuted.—' Ifear !) A s. to the principle of Representation, he admitted that their views on this subject by no means co incided, , for he was afraid that the ditfeiience' between the Gallant General 'and himself was a radical difference.—(A laugh.)--That lion. „ • ;.: 4 A i mdmber's priumpie of repre!;enation NV a 3 numJ begs ; his (Mr. S. Wortley's) ,vas itttll,er,, property, The CH A 1 it.)l .1 NAtsked what the Ifon..Menther for Yorkshire 11;:ealit to move. • ~ .. W911:171.ET moved .that the Lord" twin= ,ty" .beso'astitutefi for the-word 6' .tel4"..before. pounds ; " in the clause relating to the qtte.h . .ll: cation—The question Was then put. : Sir ROBER2 .explained.--.-When the nom Gentleman. said/he was desirous that pro perty.only. should. he feprese.iakti s he..cdght to haVe• remembered that labonr_ was pr.operty,-,-, (Heat.!):=Ahat every workman paid in- taxes At the rate of 101. out of .18/4. and that tic pros portion of of. 200. day s; labour mit of 300 was mortgaged; Mr; S.:Wo UTI.Ey said that now it appeared the . gallant General's principle bordered very much upon one of Uni'versal Suffrage ; and therefore he was still at issue •with him. . Mr; THOMAS COURTENAY, after some general objections to the Bill, observed that there never, was an Act of Parliament - passed for erecting Scot and •Lot Borough.- - - - -(Hear, hear, from the Oppusition.) : —lf he was mistaken in this propo. sition, he - begged pardon of the House ; but althost all the acts upon the subject had beep enumerated by the Noble Lord (J. Russell) oti the first introduction of the measure into the House; and from the same authority, he had un• derstood that the Act of Henry VIII. applied the same principle to all the new Boroughs as had previously. applied to ,the old ones.. Ile amid only say, upon the subject of corruption ; that the inhabitants of the City of. Westmin. , ster were most grossly calumniated, if. there had not been a vast deal of notorious corniptioa among them-:—(A laugh)—at former • elections—, (he did not of coarse speak of the last e l e cti o n, or o f its present members in Parliament) occasioned by circumstances,to guard against which the motion of his Hain. Friend, the Member for Yorkshire, was calculated. There certainly in ‘Vestmin. , ster had been this sort of corrupti o n— that,where rates or taxes had been in arrear s they had been, paid up for a party, in order to enable him to vote. He should support the Amendment, that the qualification be '2Ol. Mr. HunsoN GURNEY We understood to op port the principle of the• Amendment, but object to its application in the present case. Mr. BARING did not consider it of much portince how any two Membets were. added to the representation : He spoke of this as a general position ; but, as a.precedent, they - should take care to attach to the question of qualification that importance which it deserved. In the exercise of such a case certainly propertymust be considered in perhaps the first place—in order to preserie the se curity of the social system. It would not be proper , to take, as the French system of representation had taken, property simply.and only as the basis ; for it was to be seen that that had produced a total in difference in the people as to the right of elec tion, and as to the - manner .in which the represen tatives they returned discharged their duties in the Parliament. There the House might remark the defects of one system: in America they might see those of the other system of representation : both of which he considered to 'be equally in 'ex. cess. Ile thought that any iMprovement in on representation should proceed upon a ,prin ciple something similar to that of the seleet Vestry Bill., Let them found it upon a sort 0 ' graduated scale of property ; and let the loWest qualification for a vote be 101 ; so that while the poorer individual had his vote, three 'o e four votes might be given to the more wealthy one.—(Hear! from the Opposition.)--He differed in some respects - from the gallant Gen, in the 4:.)-t nervations that night made by hint ; but he rat - her agreed with him that the last elections at West minster and Southwark were more remarkable for purity, as regarded money, than others. There was no great expenditure of money, but'a very great expenditure of .nonsense,—(trear, and laughter ;)—for every one knew that a person who presented himself .as a Representative for either of those places, must talk nonsense— (Hear), —particularly if he were the popnlar Canes didate, which he would be ashamed to hearafter•-• wards hi another place.—(Hear, hear, and laugh ter.)—He must talk, not as if he were addressing . himself to- gentlemen, or to persons of cotrimon sense. —(Hear ..Sir It. Wit.soN rose to order. N - o lion. Mem. her" hail a right to :say that another talked non. sense.—(Laughter.)—For himself he had never addressed nor could he stoop to address language ;to his Constituents of which he would be ashamed, .to be reminded in another place.—(Cheers.)-- If the Hon. Gentleman would ever. attend meet ings Where the Hon. Members he (Mr. Barin,o had alluded to spoke to their Electors, he might have ample opportunity to correct his opinion. The CHAIR3tAN - here interposed. It was rom petent for the gallant General to call. an Hon. Member. to order in this stage, but not to make a reply to speech.—(Hear!) Mr. BARING was not at all alluding personally to the Hon. and gallant General: He was in fa vour of raising Me qualification to 20/. Mr. C. CAivrivr-bore testimony to the disinte rested conduct Of the electors of Southwark. -No application, during the five contested elections which he had stood for that borough,- had ever been made to Alien for the .payment of rates or taxes.—(Cheers.) Mr. COKRTUNAT xplaiued . - Lord MILTON strAgly deprecated the - .pine% ple suggested by the lion. 'Gentleman (Mr: Bar ing). It would ,he better that the wealthy and. the poor man should .go int o th e TownhaLl to gether,:and exercise the same franchise, by giv ing each his single'vOte,iccotding to his.own, con scientious fee,ling.--(Cheers.)—lf his Honour= able Friend aiid Colleague!wonlcl give way, by withdrawittg his Motion, which would not in the least prejudice the general question he intended to propose, he (Lord Milt* wouiii move to - omit, byway of :amendment, all .the words down `to " the sum of." .• . After a few words frOth Mr. C. Vk ..'ynn, Mr. 6arittp„, and the'. Chairman, 'the qiiie,Stion ‘ put, " that these words sthnd part ()Cale cianie." Lord Aunioar, in supporting the orik6il clause, expresSed his entire conviction, after tnuch