The Sun. — London, England, 1844-04-02 00:00:00

orb the the ice be ion )lis, uty , he )m -of fter into re- 1 to r of ni'. the Cher sent the 'rom Go hich and bet de- itive Lion, now such the en it the nder roble t he con- Lam), efore state rould finite still at he ring- Gen e fore ►t the t the Bill p the 3 was Ise to hies' the legis' rriev- ISSI .0. one re". South Go. asure g the UER aster, state TJE3 et on old be lotion tract§ AIW g the itecl duty ritain e h t said i g on Japer s on. Rion* m ber atten' law`' 6CtOTY )y the )oint ibjecC ;e d to eseot• t Pro. two' Kag e(l nder F od n pros' of the of the n ittee now' goo , ,co tbe ta re" f the West ) the le re" d the LzioU 4 ell h e on to aneni nose d Cl linen" :toth.er suw- rnev r th e a fter o th e also► the 110. Ile 7 iO3 le A" our se horP __ _.~''` sili, hand period ; but, although it w a s a G ove r n ment night, le he h a d no wish t o t a k e prece d ence , an d hi s Nob Friend would not proceed unless with the wish of the House.—(Cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL wished to know if it was in tended to take the Orders of the Day after the Noble Lord's motion? Sir R. PEEL —Yes. IRISH REGISTRATION. Lord ELIOT rose for the purpose of moving that' leav e be given to brin6 in a Bill for amending the law. relating to the re nstration of voters for Members of Parliament in Ireland. The subject to which he was about to call the attention of the House had often been discussed within those walls, and it would not be necessary for him to preface the explanation he was about to give f the main provisions of th e Bill by any lengthened exposition of the defect s in the existing law. These defects were—the powe r of challenging the rights of voter to remain on the list, the multiplicity of objections, the facility of personation, and a variety of other defects which had been acknowledged by almost every other Mem ber of that House who had taken a part in the dis cussion on this question. been m a d e b Various proposals had with y gent'e men on both sides of the House a view of applying a remedy to those defects, and those p roposals had given rise to discussions which had occasionally been rather of an acrimonious tnature. On the present occasion, however, he wished with question to he discussed solely on its own merits, itsitadiafficvir of i securing a satisfactory adjustment of those discussions not, should not, therefore, refer to or, if he did, it would not be in a tone . or manner calculated to excite angry feelings. A proposal to amend the law of registration in Ireland was made during the existence of the late Govern ment ; but it was resisted by that Government on the ground th a t t h e existing system had prevailed for any years, an d that it was' unadvisable to alter it. But, at the same time, Lord Althorp distinctly de tared that if time and experience should prove at the system of registration which had been intr • ' oduced into England was well adapted for its vpiurpose, and was an efficient system, it would be ad sable to extend that system to Ireland. He (Lord Eliot) thought there could be no doubt that the sys-' tem of registration in England did give general and great satisraction. The defects in it, which experience during the last ten ears ha ' oind out, were re moved by t h e Act of y last sessionion, and he believed the 11-lea- sure, as it stood, was not only adapted to its pur pof se as a sy s t em of registration for England, but that it were transplanted t o I re l an d, mu t a ti s mu t an di s , it would h.. a great improvement on the system that prevailed in that country. It was this system, therefore, which her Majestys Government proposed to that House for introduction into Ireland. The measure .proposed to give to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland in Council, the power of dividing counties i nto polli ng di stricts ; in each polling place of which district the revising barrister should hold an annual court of revision and registration. It was pro- Nsed .to reserve to the assistant barrister ap • pointed to preside in the Court of Quarter Ses re, and w h o at present also presided in the gistration courts, the duty of the revising bar rister. They were i n general men perfectly competent to P er form their d u ti es i n a manner satisfactory to the counties in which they were stationed, oand there were n o groun d s f or creating any new ffi His to preside i n th e reg i strat i on courts. next point referred to the right o f a pp ea l. A n not a ppeal W 43 allow e d i n E ng l and as to the law, though the upon the f ac t s o f t h e case, and it was vested in Court of Common Pleas. They did not propose to give this appeal in Ireland to the Court of Common Pleas, but to the Court of Exchequer Chamber. The duties of the several law courts in Ireland were very heavy and multifarious, and for this reason, chiefly, they proposed to vest the new power in the Ex chequer Chamber, because all the j u d ges b e l onge d to th a t court and the questi ons th a t wou ld b e b roug h t for decision would always have the consideration of a then to go into th e reasons why the Court of Com mon Pleas should not b e preferred in Ireland as it w as in Engl an d , b ut he might say that in giving it to al i l the judge s th ey pursued a course which they con dered most likely to g i ve genera l sa ti s f act i on . s 'll lere were only one or two minor differences be leit the English and the Irish s y s t em , w hi c h h e ' O ught it n ecessar y t o a ll u d e t o . Th e d uty of corn- P a ring the li s t s was in E ng l an d con fid e d to the over seer —in Ireland they proposed to c on fid e it to the baronial collector. In England the town-clerks, ex ercising their duties as clerks of the peace, had the Custody o f the lists, and they proposed that the Ireland. clerk the p eace should have the custody of them in of With regard to the time of polling, there would not be any material difference, for they pro- Posed to limit its duration to one day for boroughs, and to two days for counties.—(Loud cries of "_ Hear, hear.' ) He believed this portion of the measure would meet with a very gene ral assent, correctin it would do, many great abuses that now Looksplace_, and curtailin g the very unnecessary expenses which now so frequently took place. He would now state what it was pro posed to do with the existing registers. I-1 proposed that alt persons now on the register should bee replaced on the new register, and should not be • liable to chal lenge _ (hiring the remainder of the term for which the present register would have lasted, except where he had earta,i with He was awL are—ithar thearneymi portion of his property. ht be some objections made to that. It might be said, and with truth; that there svere improper votes upon the register, and that the revising barristers ought to be enabled to purge the register of such votes y, but impro as l were, he would not say f raudulently, the ntrary, h e y placed there. On that few (Lord rEliot) thought it was better im roper votes should remain on the register than teat should be expos e d to arson shavin g a bond fi de claim Vexatious process of challenge ,• and thus h e no proposed that these P axt ie should at eot be liable to challenge f or the remainder of the to remain on the register. At the end of that time they would h li a b le , aVe a right to be entered in the register, iiabi unt.er the same rules as other claimants, and urged e to any ground of objection which might be against them. He also proposed by this Bill to glue double costs in cases of frivolous objections and - IlontshuePPorte3 claims. These were the principal provisions he hadwereany ther e 13ili with respect to registration and polling, and if provisions of this part of the Bill to which not adverted, he was ready to give an answer to any__ gentleman who might seek further information tira It. IT n .,,,,, 5 —e would next proceed to the third, and subject—he and most difficult branch of this ----lie meant the qualification of voters. The Douse ee w as , 182i9, when by well aware that the question of the fran was in a most unsatisfactory state. In the year v‘voetr:g .frora the 10th of George IV. the right of 40s. freeholds was abolished, there 216 win Ireland, if he were not mistaken, , at t t elect° ra• He certainly did no t propose hami °m eat s b ent t o enter into the merits of that ques lict.filte believed that, with a few exceptions, the that the uat s Y s tern p r • concurred in were so generally recognised, of its abolition was very generally h ad b een to I. ad he thought the effect of the measure as he had give ta reaadgyood example. In the year 1829, 216;00 0 that ale out of those the said, there were in Ireland . _ c ors ; but it was worthy of observation, seven couties. Ate re were 102,000 registered for constituency ofhe present moment the actual than in the year 18 29, ac°dunitY Kildare was larger he thought the constit n - -n the county of Wicklow at the present time, neney was rather larger than numbers were nearly th whilst in some other counties the they were in 1 829. YI-1 e same at the present time as he thought the effect $e me mentioned this because good deal eXaggerat merely the Act of 1829 had been a number of electors e In the following year the Reform Bill, I n th e w fo as l 39,70 0, and the effect of the num be r of the electorsling y ear, was to increase the The number Was 64 from from 52,000 to 60,000. 57,000 in 1841 • a 'd in 1835; 76,000 in 1837 ; time of the Refo;mn63'oo° in 1842. From the 11 ,000 had been added Bill down to the present period The addition was to the constituency of Ireland. Reform 4 Bill the made in this case by words. In the thai Was to thesvords were " the clear value to him," define more cle ?ccupant, this being supposed to itself, but the y' not the value of the estate or • o ecupier had° interest which the owner in itThose words were expunged in the House . Th vern of Lords, and the then Go .‘ ment did not think it • insert G. the I•t_ ,• expedient to them in rum zull. The Ri Ho.n. Gentleman, the pro of Chancellor of Ireland " th ese words, and said that objected to the admission uncertainty would arise fromeonsiderble doubt and believed that the Learned Gentle eir insertionL.efroll P ra Nsed as a means of b ' ' man ' difficulty, r. Stn 0. o viating the the O f 'hose the words '°he • neficial interest." words were introduced certainly with no , intention on in an the part of the proposer of them, Eliot j way to decrease the franchise • and he (Lord .c.uot) had n a been able to discover' M that her Ma- t It hen Government entertainedsuch d • any design. was clea r ] in the and explicitly stated by a Noble Duke was n o t other House (the Duke of Richmond), that it' ot the intention of the Government to raise the qUalification ; and he believed that no such intention ver • ' e existed. It was perfectly true that the Act, _Lae._ 10th of George the Fourth, did impose itontithTith commonly called " the solvent tenant by which it was provided that the land should be capable of being let for the specified amount to „ „ a solvent tenant. That oath was omit • ted a t ii . "le Reform Bill. In the 19th of George 11. the a ltn,2 oath was imposed upon freeholders ; by the lath lieu that 111. that oath was omitted ; but he be- I rei d it was never contended, either in th• Land or England, that a clear, beneficial value— ,44' IN a surplus after the payment of rent and other detense•-.-was invariably necessary. It was clearly vit ,,ned that clear yearly value meant the value for which the tenement might be let to a solvent tenant. tifiA egi3: rl'arant r the • That was the interpretation recognised by the courts, I needlessly to trouble the House. Were the accu but he knew doubts existed upon the point in the I racy however of any of his statements doubted, he English courts; but the insertion of the words "be- trusted such doubt would be expressed, that neficial interest," and their omission from the oath, he might at once give evidence of their truth. gave rise to a different interpretation of the law in I One of the great objects the Government had in Ireland, and the assistant barristers and some of the view was, to relieve the voter from the multiplicity judges held that the proper interpretation to be put of claims he was called upon to satisfy—the vexation on the clause was what the estate might be worth to attendant upon which was greater than the aggre the occupier. The question was argued in the Court ' gate money amount of them. He was sure it was not of Exchequer Chamber in 1837, on a case which his own intention, nor the intention of the House, to was tried before Chief Justice Bushe, and deprive any man of his vote, but rather to in that ease it was laid down, not only that I simplify the proper means for the acquisition of it. the solvent tenant test was the proper inter- All that ought to he required was a fair guarantee of pretation, but that the solvent tenant oath was the the solvency of the party claiming a vote, and his oath to be administered to the jury. Two of the I fulfilment, after a clear and simple form, of the con judges held that the solvent tenant test was no longer ditions attached to the right. He was not applicable, and three of them held it was applicable, aware there were any other points it was but that no oath was to be administered, and the re- necessary for him then to touch upon. mainder of the judges decided that the oath was pro- He believed that the proposition, if adopted, would perly administered, and that the solvent tenant test place the electoral franchise of Ireland upon a wider should remain in force. The minority of the judges and more extended basis ; and though that basis was and several of the assistant-barristers declined to be not upon the same principle as the franchise of Eng bound by the opinion of the majority, and this was one land, still he believed that it would be found to be great cause of uncertainty. It was therefore right more extended than it was either in England or Scot that Parliament should put an end to the doubt, and land. He earnestly hoped that the great body of the that the question of value should be defined by legis- Irish nation would see that the proposal of that lation.—(Hear, hear.) Looking, then, to the deci- measure by the Government was a redemption sions of the majority of the judges, and the inten- of the pledge given by his Right Hon. Friend at the tions of the Legislature, and to the practice in England head of her Majesty's Government in the speech to and Scotland, and to the established Constitution, which he (Lord Eliot) had referred, and that they which required a bona fide property arising out of would see in the adoption of it by the Imperial Par land be determined to render the Irish law conforma- liament an earnest desire to impart to_ the peo ' , le of ble tolthe law of England and Scotland . and to r eq uire Ireland the en j o y ment of e q ual ri g hts and equal fran that there should be a clear yearly value over and chises with the people of this country. And he above all rents and charges. It might be trusted that those to whom those powers were now said that this object could be attained entrusted for the first time, would bear in mind that in a more simple manner. In 1841 the Noble they were so intrusted, not for any advantage to Lord, the Member for Sunderland—whom he and themselves alone—not for the advantage merely of many of those who sat behind him felt bound to sup- the district in which they resided, or even of their own port, made a proposition which distinctly recognised the country, but that they were given for the good of principle of property arising out of land. The Noble the whole of this great and still united empire. Lord proposed to take the rating under the poor-law Mr. HUME asked what would be the addition to valuation, but the reports which he had received on the number of voters by this Bill ? the subject convinced him that this proposition would Lord ELIOT said that the Bill proposed to relieve be in a great measure illusory. He had received voters of certain taxes and burdens, but that the rentals of several gentlemen's property, it would be impossible for any gentleman to on which the placedi the greatest confidence. hazard a correct opinion as to the in- But if gentlemen were not satisfied with his statement crease of numbers it might cause. It was of the confidence which he reposed in these com a his intention to lay the Bill on the table to munications, they were not bound to express any morrow, and it would be then printed, and thus Hon. opinion upon them. All the communications which Gentlemen would have ample time to consider its he had received from every part of Ireland—north, provisions. It was suggested to him now, that instead south, east, and west—with few exceptions, satisfied of rising again, he should explain at once the nature him that if they were to fix on any rat e below 101., of the alterations proposed to be made in the Muni ; if only 51., they would thereby expunge from the regis- cipal Corporations Bill. The House was aware that tration list a larger portion of the present constituency when that measure passed through that House, the than they would expunge by the introduction of the assimilation of the municipal franchise of Ireland with solvent tenant test. Besides, he did not think it that of England was impossible. The municipal would be fit, or even becoming, on the part of her franchise of England was based on the occupation Majesty's Government, to depart from the ancient of a house for a given time, and on the payment principles of the franchise in Ireland and Scotland, of rates for the same period. Now as the unless some large and practical good was to follow. poor-law valuation had not been a sufficient time in —(Hear, hear.) He now admitted, without the force in Ireland when the Municipal Corporation Bill least hesitation or reserve, that the effect of the ap- became the law, it was impossible to place the muni plication of the solvent tenant test so stringently as cipal franchise of Ireland upon that basis. It was now he proposed, would be to deprive of their votes a very proposed to remove any cause of complaint which considerable number, ifnot of the present constituency, might arise at the difference which existed between certainly of the 101. occupants. It would be impos- the municipal franchise of Ireland and that of sible for him to say precisely what the effect would England, by assimilating them as far as pos be, but, according to the data which he had been able sible. He believed, that in all the great cities, to collect, he was willing to admit that it was very towns, and boroughs of Ireland, with the exception possible that two.thirds of the existing occupants of Wexford, which wanted a few months of the ne (10/. leaseholders and freeholders)—he again observed cessary time, that in all those large towns the not constituency—would be disfranchised. He be- poor-law had been in operation a sufficient time to lieved that class of occupants amounted to about 40,000, act as a test similar to that which it required. and it was obvious that one-third of the number which It was therefore proposed to extend to Ireland the would remain on the registry under .the solvent provisions of the Municipal Registration Bill of tenant test were not adequate to express the England in that respect, and to give to every inhabi opinions and feelings of the portion of the people tant householder who should have occupied, for the whom they were intended to represent. It was de- space of three years, and who, during that time, had dared by the Noble Lord, at the beginning of the been rated for the relief of the poor, and who had session, during the debate upon the state of Ireland, paid his rates and taxes up to that time—it was that it was expedient to give, if not an identical, at proposed to give to him the right of voting. least a substantial equality in the franchise to Ireland He did not wish now to revert to the with the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) In discussion on the Corporations Bill. No man could making, then, so large a reduction of the consti- regret more than he did what he must describe as a tuency as the new test would effect, it was necessary perversion of the powers which Parliament had given. to seek for some compensation, for it must be He regretted that the municipal corporations should admitted that the restricted number would be made- have become normal schools of agitation ; be thought quate to express the wants and wishes of the coin- it would have been much better if they had confined munity, for whose behalf the franchise was entrusted themselves to their own peculiar duties. But, however to them. Her Majesty's Ministers thought it desir- he might regret this, he could not divest himself of the able that there should be a community of interests and conviction that every man h a town who contributed feelings between the constituent body and those for by the payment of rates and taxes to the maintenance whom the franchise was entrusted to them. Her of that farm, was entitled to a vote in the administra- Majesty's Ministers, therefore, thought it expedient tion of its local affairs ; and he did hope and trust that to seek for a constituency amongst a class of persons after the temporary effervescence which now existed who, by their independent position, would be enabled in Ireland should have subsided, all parties con to give unbiassed and unprejudiced votes, and who were netted with municipal corporations would turn not too far removed from the body of the inhabitants their attention to their own local affairs, acid of the electoral district. He conceived that, if the reserve the expression of their political opinions for a franchise were made to depend merely upon the money more fitting opportunity.—(Hear, hear.) The House amount of rent, it would be attended, amongst many were aware that the grand jury, municipal, and inconveniences and uncertainties, with a practice of poor's rates were at present payable as a condition collusion on the part of the landlord, and to give him attached to the municipal franchise. He believed an inducement to raise the nominal amount of that, in Dublin, there were not less than one or rent. He thought, therefore, they should seek two and twenty of these local taxes.—(Hear, hear.) a test less liable to misapprehension. The He did not mean that every man was liable to the Government proposed that all occupiers, no mat- payment of these local taxes, but that these taxes ter what their tenure—that all occupiers who were payable in certain districts, and he believed were rated to the r e li e f of the poor in a certain that some individuals in Dublin were actually liable amount—should have the benefit of the franchise. to the payment of fourteen, fifteen, or sixteen local Then the question was, what should be the amount of taxes, the non-payment of any one of which would that rating—what, looking at the amount both of the deprive them of the right of voting at a mu population, the rental, and the property of the coun- nicipal election. It was proposed to make try, would be sufficient for the purpose, and yet high the payment of taxes in this respect cor enough to secure the independence of the voter. respond with the payment which entitled a person The inquiries of her Majesty's Government had led to to exercise the Parliamentary franchise. He was not the belief that a man rated to the relief of the poor in aware that there was any other point to which it was the sum of 301. a year would probably be possessed of necessary to call the attention of the House. That sufficient capital to render him an independent person. was the only provision of any importance which It appeared that there were in Ireland 76,000 this Bill contained. Thanking the House for the tenements rated to the poor which were rated in that attention with which they had listened to his state amount. Certain deductions must be made for that ment, he begged for leave to bring in the Bill. number on account of tenements held by widows and The question having been put, minors, and of persons holding under other quslifica- Lord ELIOT said there was one point of some im tions. Deducting one-seventh for the first class, and portance which he had omitted, and perhaps the House another seventh from the other, they might assume would allow him to supply the omission. It was pro that 25,000 would be the addition to the constituency posed to introduce into the Irish law a provision under the new qualification. Assuming that 25,000 with regard to joint occupatio n , w hi c h wou ld pl ace it should be placed on the register under the new fran- on the s ame footin g there as in this country. chise, there would be an addition of 30,000 to the Mr. M. O'FERRALL said that the Noble Lord, county constituency of Ireland. But her Majesty's Go- though he had conceded every principle against which vernment feeling that one of the links of the social his party had once contended, had yet fallen far short chain in Ireland was wanting from the total absence lin his proposit ions to carr y them out. The Noble of that class represented by the yeomen or small in- i Lord had proved by his Bill that all the complaints, dependent proprietors of England, would encourage and all the agitation which existed upon this subject the creation of such a class of voters by the addi- were fully justified. — ( Hear, hear.) But the Noble tional inducement o f g i v i ng th em th e franchise. He Lord had fallen into all those errors into which it proposed, therefore, that all persons Possessing a free- might be expected he would, considering the advice hold inheritance of Si. clear yearly value above all under which he acted.---(Hear.) He believed the quit rents, or possessed of a lease on lives, renewable ' Noble Lord himself possessed the best and most honest for ever, so as to be equal to a freehold inheritance, intentions, but he believed the views of the Noble Lo r d should hereaft er have a vote. This, he hoped, were not carried out in his own Bill. The p rinci p le would have th e e ff ec t o f inducing persons to invest of the Bill was the main thing; b ut, after all, the their capital i n th e purc h ase o f small freeholds. way in which the principle was to be carried out was That would give a more independent class of votes, a great point. The majority of the judges had de and it was but just that such a class of men should tided that the solvent tenant test should be be invested with the elective franchise. He was not applied ; that was, that a solvent tenant should prepared to say that the effect at present to be pro- be able to pay 101. over and above what duced would be considerable, but the ultimate effect was paid by the occupier, and that he understood was would be very beneficial, and he believed that in the interpretation which the Noble Lord intended to many parts of Ireland perpetual leases—that' was, give in his Bill. The Noble Lord admitted that such leases renewable for ever—were by no means uncom- an interpretation would diminish the present mon. He believed that the measure would have the number of voters on the registry by . one-fourth, effect of adding considerably to the number of and to allow for this, he proposed to give the fran respectable voters in the Irish counties. There was chise to persons rated under the poor dew at 301. a one other alteration which he proposed to make year. This would, at the least, make 50/. a in the existing law, and that was, that it was not year rent ; and h e contended that an y man. intended that either freeholders or inheritable lease- paying such a rent would be able to qualify holders should be required to be in actual occupation. at the quarter sessions under the present in- This would be of great assistance to small capitalists in terpretation of the law. If his statement acquiring votes. In England 101. freeholders were was correct the 25,000 votes he proposed to give by not required to be in occupation of the property for the 30/. rating would prove to be nothing at all. which they voted, and it was intended to assimilate There was an important part of the case which was the law of Ireland to the law of England in that re- omitted by the Noble Lord, namely, that he did not spect. They intended to dispense with occupation in state whether this 301. was to be a tenancy-at-will all cases of freeholds exceeding 101. in value. Before or not. the passing of the Reform Act occupation was not Lord ELIOT—It was an occupation of 301. required in England for 40s. freeholders. Since the Mr. M. O'FERRALL—Then to that he enter passing of the Act, however, oc cupation had been re- tamed a strong objection, for it would place the quired in all cases of freeholds under the value of 10/. voter much more under the influence of the land- These were all the a lt era ti ons th a t he proposed intro- lord than he was under the present Bill. ducing in the qualification of county voters. He The persons who, under the present law, had the 101. would now call the a tt en ti on o f the House to the al- qualification, were protected by their leases, and could terations which he p ro p ose d to introduce in the quali- not be turned out by the landlords for voting according fication of voters for towns under the Reform Act in to their own feelings; but the personsrated at 30/. were, England. All that was required of a voter was the for the most part, so placed under the present law, payment of two, assessments—namely, the assessed that they could be ejected on three months' taxes and the poor -rates ; but it should be borne in notice.—(Hear, hear.) The result would be to place mind that under the comprehensive term " poor- the best and most industrious part of the community rates," what was called in Ireland county cess entirely in the power of the landlords. He thought a was also paid, inasmuch as under the denomination franchise of this kind the greatest curse that could be " poor-rates" the b oroug h vo t e r in England paid inflicted on Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It was better to not only the rate for the relief of the poor, but also a say at once that those who held land in tenancy should large portion of the county rate._., In England, there- not vote at a ll— ( Hear, hear)—better to in q uire how fore, it was necessary that the voter before he many tenants rated at 301. each landlord had could exercise the franchise must pay a much larger upon his estates, and to give him at once sum as poor-rates than he would be liable to in Ireland. just as many votes as he had such tenants. For a ten-pound house in many of the larger boroughs Nothing could be more unjust, impolitic, or dan in England, taking assessed taxes, and the various gerous, than to give the landlords of Ireland any in sums falling under the term of poor-rates, there I creased power over the conscentious exercise of the would be about three shillings in the pound to pay constitutional rights of his tenants.—(Hear, hear.) before a title to vote was made out. In Ireland, , The danger to which property was at present exposed under the Reform Act, there were county rates, muni- in Ireland, and which was on the increase, could not cipal rates, and cesses to pay. The consequence but be aggravated by giving the landlords this further was, that to make out your title to vote, it power of interference. When the Noble Lord, the was r necessary to pay a considerable number of taxes, Member for North Lancashire made his celebrated some ne o c fg a at magnitude, and others annoying, , speech upon the bribery that prevailed at Irish elec rather from their number than their large individual tions he forgot to mention the bribery which was amount. This it was desirable to simplify. He induced by the clause giving the franchise upon rent proposed,as a substitute for the assessed , charges of 201. and 501. In many ins tances persons , require payment of the town rate for paving, without proving that they received that qualification lighting, and watching ; texes,to then, of the poor-rate ;of the bo- came down to the election, and , upon swearing ro ugh rate ; and of the police rate. His object was that they had such rent-charge, were allowed to to make the right of franchise correspond as I vote. A similar abuse existed in Scotland, but nearly as possible to that of the correspond- then in Scotland there was a balance of evils, for ing class of voters in England. Though parties were nearly equal in that part of the all his statements were founded on facts, kingdom, and, if one side created fraudulent votes, which could be verified by documents then before the abuse was compensated by the other party him, he had not read extracts from those docu- creating an equal number-; but in Ireland, the land, meats, not wishing, in this stage of the measure, , for the most part, was in the hands of one party, and - TEE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, APRIL 2 1 1844 there was no such moans of compensating fraud on the one hand, by equal fraud on the other. He ad mitted that where abuses existed they ought to be correcte l, but if they gave the franchise to per sons so qualified they ought to demand proof of the receipt or the 301. for six or twelve months precedinz, It was necessary that persons claiming should be put to the proof of the actual receipt. The Noble Lord had stated truly that the 40 , . franchise which had been destroyed in 1829 had produced a great effect in some counties, and scarcely any effect in others. In the county which he represented it had produced scarcely any effect, but in many counties the ma jority of the freeholders had been swept away. He must admit that the 51. franchise was, of all others, the one most desirable to exist ; hut, under the pre sent circumstances, he found that there was scarcely any chance of any great number of such voters being created. Then, with regard to the franchise in towns. It appeared that where three persons had a beneficial interest in a holding of the value of 301. it was the in tention of the Government that each of them should be upon the register.—(Hear, hear.) But he wished to draw the Noble Lord's attention to one point, which was that in cases where a man held different tenements of one landlord, the amount of the whole rent of which 'sns 101., he was entitled to a vote ; but where he held tenements of different landlords, the total value of which was more than 101., but of which 10/. was not held under one landlord, the occupier was not entitled to a vote. Now this he considered ought to be altered. He did not wish to mace any unnecessary objections to the Government measure, and he was sorry that, while the Government admitted the principle of the necessity of extending the franchise, they had not sufficiently carried it out. He must protest against giving the franchise to the 301. tenants-at-will. After a few words from Mr. GROGAN, Mr. F. SHAW said he did not think the measure would have much immediate practical effect. The amount of the holding was a matter of comparative indifference ; while the present state of society in Ireland, there was an indisposition on the part of the tenant to be put upon the registry at all. The tenants who wished to attend more to their farms and their families than to politics, generally declined to be put on the registry, as they wished to live in peace with their landlords, and those who had influence over them. Whether the holding was 30/. or 501. would make little practical difference. lie would not enter into the merits of the Bill till they had seen it printed, and looked more particularly into its provi sions. He was unwilling to give his opinion as to the measure, except as to one point. If by giving the franchise to 51. freeholders, they could encourage the creation of such a class of proprietors, he should much wish to see it carried into effect. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said this was a subject which, in itself, was one of very considerable diffi culty, and he was prepared to admit that the Noble Lord had introduced it with great good temper. His first proposition would, as admitted by the Noble Lord himself, cause a very great deficiency in the number of voters in Ireland. Speaking generally, it might, it appeared, be taken at not less than twenty five thousand. But how did the Noble Lord propose to supply the deficiency ? By allowing tenants pay ing a certain rent, and occupying from year to year, to have votes, and therefore, so far, it would be a tenant-at-will clause ; as it was well known that a tenant choosing to vote ad versely to his landlord would be obliged to quit his farm. This tenant-at-will franchise had never been known in England until the passing of the Reform Bill, and let it be remembered it was not then proposed by the authors of the Bill, but by a Noble Duke, then the Marquis of Chandos and a Member of that House. Such was the origin of that tenant-at-will clause, which placed the counties entirely in the hands of the landlords. The effect of this clause had been described very accurately and very pithily, with respect to the counties of England, by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), who had on a former occasion told the House that it was only for six or seven of the large landed pro prietors to meet, and then the future representation was at once determined on. In England they found a very strong inclination, both among Whig landlords 'roryandlantdhelorredfosraendthteensaynstts,einto did an amount of ev il as i t was certa i n nottogethera n d create tenants, reat ea at s great and elections; to do in Ireland. In some cases in England no doubt it produced gross oppression and great evil, but in the general run it did not perhaps do so. The case in Ireland was very different. There, generally speaking, the tenants were anxious to escape from voting ; on the one hand, not wishing to vote with the landlord—on the other, trying to avoid popular influences, in order not to seriously offend the land lord. It was imposssible to have the same clause in Ireland that now existed in England, without pro ducing very great discontent. If the effect of it in Ireland should be the same as it was in England, to make the counties the channels through which the landlords should send to Parliament whomsoever they liked, the representation would he the constant source of irritation and annoyance. He (Lord John Russell) considered therefore that the intro duction of the thirty-pound tenant clause was one which was very objectionable indeed. Introducing so high an amount as 30/. for occupation would, he feared, only lead the landlords to think that the body of electors would be sufficiently limited for them to have some influence or power over them. He was glad that the Noble Lord proposed a 51. freehold franchise Bill. He only regretted that there was not also a 40s. freehold franchise. The number of freehold franchises in fee of Si., as well as those of 40s. in fee, would be small, and he did not see why they should not give the same franchise in this re spect to Ireland as England enjoyed. He would not then enter into the merits of the whole Bill, expect ing that on a future occasion the Right Hon. Baronet would furnish the explanation desired. At present he could not see how the present Bill wo uld substan tially effect equality in the Irish franchise. The Noble Lord proposed certain changes with respect to the right of voting, which he thought w ould be be neficial. With regard to the Corporations, if he understood rightly, the voting for mu nicipal officers would be the same as in England. lie did not know that there was any provision in the Bill for the pay ment of rates. He had no further objection to make in this stage of the proceedings. Mr. BELLEW said he was not prepared to give any ut he opi d n i i d on n a o t t pr t e h s ink present tohnethreegteinstarni would be at all y at will clause ; b affected by it. The fra nc hise in Ireland should be as extensive as was contemplated by the Reform Bill. Lord HOWICK thought that it was well worth the consideration of her Majesty's Government whether they might not get rid of all the agitation of the regis tration courts by taking the rating on the list instead of compelling the party to appear for the purpose of proving the amount.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped gentleman on that side of the House would not too hastily condemn 'voting founded on mere occupation. He admitted the superiority of a lease; but if they trusted entirely to a franchise depending on leases, they could not obtain a sufficient number of voters.— (Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) If they required a lease they placed it in the power of the great owners of the soil virtually to disfranchise the electors.—(Hear.) A franchise arising only from a lease was liable to great Blouses. Suppose a person granting a lease to the amount of 10/. or 201. The lease might be granted at a nominal rent, wh en a much less sum was really paid, in order that the voter might be retained in the power of the landlord. H e had had considerable experience in county contests, and all his experience led him to the same opinion. It would be practically impossible to get a sufficient number of voters in Ireland without an occupation franchise. But if they mad e an oc cupation franchise, he agreed with his Noble Friend that the amount should be fixed so low a s to enable t he voters to pro tect each other. He tho u g ht 30/. was too high an amoun t.nking thHaet iftheyentirely agreed with the N o bl e Lord inthi we re to create a vote ar i s i ng from property in fee, there was no reason why the amount required should be higher in Ireland than in England.—(Hear, hear.) On the contrary, Ireland being a poorer country, a 40s. fee there was sone thing whicha larger amount than t he sam e fee in England, The Right Hon. and Lea rned G entleman opposite t hadwas more truly stated desira b t l h e at ta if d t o h e t r h e a N n V a anothe r it was to was very g en courage persons in Ireland to acquire a small pro perty in land. He thought that a Board of Franchise poor-lawwould be valuation.m ost valuable il in Ireland, testing it by the He lad to hear that her Majesty's Government were in f avour o f encou raging the acquisition of the ri g h t of voting by small fee simples. He hoped her Maj es t y ' s G overnment would adopt some means to render more easy, cheap, and simple, the conveyance of land.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing so much tended to interfere with this salu tary process as the difficulty and expense attending small conveyances of land. He trusted that the question of stamps would not be excl u d e d f rom con sideration whenever that w as discussed. He could not but express his satisfac tio n at finding that they were now entering upon the discussion of this question in a manner which was likely to lead to a satisfactory settlement of the franchise.—(Hear.) Sir R. PEEL expressed a hope that Hon. Gentle men would not prejudge this question, and deprive themselves of the opportunity of giving a deliberate judgment after examining th e de tails of the Bill, and having w iaccess respectto th t e o t ile informationefftee plied o of any particular pro position.—(Hear, hear.) Th e c ourse which the Go vernment proposed to take with resp ec t t o the muni cipal and county franchise in Ireland was this. They had found some disqualifications existing in Ireland, which they proposed to remove. In Great Britain occupation neceseery condition of voting as the n h s e :t required a sein freehold a a franchise. In Ire- s land it was required. They proposed to remove the restriction in Ireland, and to place the 10/. freehold franchise as to occupation on the same footing as in that the Hon. Member for Kerry had answered the I question of his Right Hon. Friend. His Right Hon. Friend said, "If you do not admit a qualification by this description how are you to provide sufficient con stituencies in the Irish counties ?" The qualification proposed he (Lord Eliot) believed, so far from strengthening the disinclination on the part of land lords to grant leases, would have a directly contrary effect. He believed that the present disinclination to grant leases arose from a disinclination to give poli tical power to those who were disposed to use it against the landlords. He believed that the proposed qualification would operate irrespective of the grant ing of leases, which would, be granted on the probability of their being_ as conducive to improvement in the cultivation of the soil. He would make one observation as to the manner of claiming to be registered. ' The Bill proposed that the person claiming should merely send his name to the baronial constable, to be placed in the list ; it would then be sent to the clerk of the peace, by whom it would be transmitted to the revising barrister, and the party claiming would not be called upon to ap pear unless he should be objected to. This was pre cisely the same as the law stood in England. The Honourable Member for Montrose had asked whether this Bill would satisfy the people of Ireland ? He asked if the constituencies had been established in just proportion to the population ? Why this principle had never been admitted by any statesman. The principle always acted upon had been to take property and population, and combine them together. He be lieved that the Hon. Gentleman would find that the franchise was wider, and upon a more extended basis, than it was either in Scotland or in England. The short coinings arose out of the different distribu tion of property. To give the same proportion to the population in Ireland as in England, they must admit eery 5L rate-payer in the country to the franchise, quite irrespective of any tenure whatsoever. The Noble Lord had asked what would have been the effect of the Bill of last session, with regard to the rating of persons under 8/. in large towns, and under 4/. in small ones? His (Lord Eliot's) answer was, that by the 33d section of the 3d and 4th of Victoria, an occupier might claim to be rated whether he was liable or not. The Act of last session did not in any way affect or take away that right. With re gard to the observations of the Hon. Member for Kerry as to the oaths to be administered, he had only to state that there would be but one oath to be taken, and two queries would be put, namely, " Are you the same person ? Have you already voted ?" Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thought it would be better to administer the general oath, that true an swers should be made to all questions, and then any questions could be put. He thought this would save time. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill, and Lord Eliot, the Irish Attorney-General, and Sir James Graham were ordered to bring it in. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND). Lord ELIOT then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend that part of the Act passed in the 3d and 4th year of the reign of - her present Majesty, intituled, "An Act for the regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ireland," which relates to the qualification of bur gesses and of voters at elections held under the said Act. Mr. SHAW thought that was an excellent oppor tunity of introducing uniformity with respect to the boundaries of municipal corporations in Ireland. This would have the effect of increasing the county con stituencies. The city of Cork occupied a space of four square miles, while the municipal district occupied a space of seven miles. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. PRIVY COUNCIL BILL. On the Order of the Day being put for going into a Committee of Supply. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, in pursuance of the motion of which he had given notice the other night, he wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet, with respect to a Bill now in progress in the other House of Parliament. It would at a future period be brought before this House, when he would have another opportunity of speaking. When his Noble and Learned Colleague (Lord Cottenham) was in office, he had expressed his opinion that it was not desirable that two additional judges should be appointed,i although he (Lord J. Russell) knew that another Chancellor, con nected with a different Government, might think those appointments necessary. With respect to all the judicial establishments of the country, especially that part which was connected with the Privy Council, it might be ex pedient that the Crown should originate such establish ment, and make particular appointments, and then state to Parliament what the additions were. The Bill to which he had alluded had been brought into the other House on the 4th of March, by which a new judge was to be appointed with a salary of 2,0002 There were already two with salaries of 1,5001. and 1,200/. respectively. On the 15th of March, the Bill was referred to a Committee, and from that period up to the present they had heard nothing of it. Now what he feared was, that in the present complicated state of the Parliamentary business the Bill would not be brought to this House until near the close of the session, when it could not receive that attention which it demanded. He wanted to call the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to an extraordinary statement which had been made. It was stated that a very eminent per son was to be placed at the head of the Judicial Corn mittee of the Privy Council as Judge.—(Hear, hear.) It was within the discretion of Government, he was per fectly aware, to make up their minds with respect to this appointment, or that such a Bill should be intro duced ; but he thought it seemed an extraordinarycourse —not to say a suspicious one—to admit that any individual, however eminent, should be named to an appointment before the office had been created, and at a time when the Government might forego their intention of creating it. If the Government thought fit that there should be such an appointment, surely it was right that they should state their reasons. The whole question depended on whether any one individual was ready, or had engaged to accept this office. Now here was the Bill introduced, and likely to be brought down to this House at a late period of the session, and in con sequence he wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern ment to bring the Bill before the House at an early period, and whether there was any foundation for the statement to which he had alluded? Sir R. PEEL, who spoke in a very low tone of voice, said he thought the Noble Lord would agree that he (Sir R. Peel) was entitled to exercise his unfettered dis cretion in the matter. Be could assure the Noble Lord that the Bill would be brought before this House as soon as it was possible in accordance with the due course of business. He did not concur in the opinion of the Noble Lord opposite, that the Noble and Learned Lord (Cottenham) was opposed last year to the appointment of a judge to pre side in the Privy Council. With respect to the state ment concerning which the Noble Lord put the other question, he should say, it was the impression of the Government that the Crown had the power of creating such an office, and under this impression it had been offered to a Noble and Learned Lord in the other House, but he declined to accept it, stating at the same time that he did not consider at that moment that such an office was required. The Bill had been brought into the other House independent of the Government by the Noble and Learned Lord. _ . Mr. B. YORKE protested strongly against this Bill, and whenever it should come before this House, he would use every means which the forms of the House allowed to oppose it. Great Britain. In Ireland they did not permit joint tenants to exercise-the right of voting ; they didper mit them to do so in England. Again the Government proposed to remove that disparity. They did not propose to take away any existing right, but to continue for the period of eight years, every such right, without any other question than the continuance of the same qualifica tion. But they proposed to make concurrently with these changes a very great increase of the franchise ; and he cited these two concurrent enactments, viz., the protection of every existing right, and the con- ferring of a suspended right, as a proof that the mea sure was conceived in the spirit of fairness. It had been constantly alleged that there was a great dis: parity between the municipal franchise in England and in Ireland. They had availed themselves of the first opportunity of placing the municipal franchise in Ireland on the same footing on which it existed in England. They gave an alternative franchise in Ire land, either occupation amounting to 101., or the holding of a tenement subject to the payment of the rates. v So far as the municipal franchise was concerned it would stand upon the same footing as it did in England.—(Hear.) Great complaints had been made as to the restrictions upon the right of voting. They proposed in future to prevent the voter from being disqualified, on account of the difficulty under which he now lay of proving the payment of every rate. That was the general effect of the mea sure which the Government proposed. They were quite aware that there was a tendency in Ireland to restrict the franchise, on account of the operation of natural causes, and that legislative enactments would probably have the same effect. They provided, how ever, a substitute which would make ample compen sation for the operation of both these causes, and which would fulfil the expectations which the people of Ireland had a right to form on this subject. As the Noble Lord had justly said, the subject was one of ex treme difficulty. With respect to leases, he thought that if they made the franchise dependent on the holders of a lease, the power of the landlord to restrict its exercise would be almost indefinitely extended ; he ventured to say, that in a short time, the franchise would be reduced to a degree which no one could desire to see. They proposed, that the man who was rated to a given amount should have the right of voting. They now proposed, for the first time, a Si. franchise in fee. On this subject, he must observe, that some of the worst description of voters had been those who voted under a 40s. franchise in fee; and they had selected a 51. franchise as insuring a more independent class than it was possible to get with the smaller amounts.— (Hear.) He would not enter into the details of this measure, which was brought forward to fulfil the declarations made on the part of her Majesty's Government.--(Hear, hear.) He re peated that he hoped Hon. Gentlemen would take time to consider this question, and weigh the infor mation to which they had access, instead of expres sing a precipitate opinion as to the effect of the measure. _ _ _ _ _ _ Mr. FRENCH would follow the advice which had just been given by the Right Hon. Baronet. He did not anticipate that the Bill would be received in Ire land as a very great concession. Half the benefits given by the Reform Bill were to be taken away. The Noble Lord confessed that two-thirds of the electors would be deprived of the franchise, and these, it must be remembered, were the most popular class of voters ; and for this franchise he proposed to sub stitute what he could not but designate as a Chandos clause He thought some of the alterations proposed by the Noble Lord would have the effect of producing greater purity in the exercise of the franchise in Ireland. Mr. HUME was glad the present Bill had been introduced, because the determination had been broken through which, for a time, seemed to prevail on both sides of the House, that the Reform Bill must be final. The question was, would this measure satisfy the people of Ireland—would it remove that unfortunate desire for separation from this country so universally prevalent there ? He feared not ; and more, he thought it ought not to satisfy them. At present there were only 60,000 voters for 8,000,000 people. The Noble Lord proposed to add 30,000 to them, making a total of 90,000—not more voters than one English county contained—not more than the West Riding of Yorkshire contained. With respect to the Irish boroughs, they had at present but a constituency of 31,000, and the Noble Lord did not propose to add to that number. He admitted that the principle of simplifying the electoral franchise contained in the Noble Lord's Bill was an improvement. The fran chise must be greatly extended in Ireland in order to afford satisfaction to the people of that country. Every individual who contributed to pay the taxes ought to have a vote at elections. The Irish franchise ought at all events to be assimilated to the English as much as possible, in order to give the people a confidence in the Imperial Parliament, and to enable the Govern ment to remove some of those troops which now gar risoned the country. He had no doubt that the pre • sent measure would be held forth to the Irish people as a fresh insult.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," from Sir R. Peel.) He understood the Right Hon. Baronet, and begged leave to tell him that, in his (Mr. Hume's) opinion, it was a fresh insult, and deserved to be cha racterised as such ; and if the Right Hon Baronet himself were an Irishman he would look upon it in no other light. There might be some salutary pro visions in the proposed Bill ; it might be considered as something in the way of concession ; but, on the whole, it was rather calculated to make the Irish people dis satisfied.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. M. GORE, though an English Member, could mot refrain from expressing his entire concurrence in the principles embodied in the Bill of the Noble Lord, and felt confident the measure must give the greatest satisfaction to the Irish people. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said he should not do justice to his own feelings if he did not enter his protest against the Bill of the Noble Lord. It extended a portion of the Reform Bill—the Chandos clause— which, though he had been nine years in that House, he never heard any Hon. Member say a good word of. He objected to the increased pbwer the Bill conferred on the landlords, who already possessed a great deal. The increase of 30,000 in the county voters would not much more than counterbalance the diminution which would take place from 'causes which were every day at work—such as the reduced prices of corn, and the high rents of land taken at a period when their produce was of much greater value. In the present state of agriculture the stringent enforcement of the test of value would have a most injurious effect on the franchise.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the fears of the Hon. Member for Montrose that the Bill would not be well received in Ireland were well grounded. It was acknowledged to be a great desideratum to remove the present state of uncertainty that prevailed between the landlord and tenant but the presen£ Bill was every way calculated to promote that uncertainty. There was a positive inducement in the Bill to land lords to preserve a state of uncertainty, and he feared that the Bill would have the effect of perpetuating and embittering those unfortunate differences between landlord and tenant, which had been the source of so much crime and discontent. The regulations regard ing polling in counties much needed alteration. In an English polling-booth 100 votes would be polled in an hour by a single clerk, whereas in Ireland the same number in a day was considered a great deal. He would not oppose the introduction of the Bill, but he could not for a moment think that any registration measure could be satisfactory which imposed a higher rate of' qualification on the poorer than on the richer people.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. WYSE had been pleased with the manner in which the Noble Lord introduced his Bill, and would not dissent from any of the praises which had been bestowed on the measure by Hon. Members on that side of the House. With regard to the right of voting derivable from freeholds, he entirely concurred with the observations which had been made on both sides of the House. He thought the great point was to es tablish proprietorship, for a small proprietor was very often more independent than a large leaseholder. He regretted that the amount had not been fixed at a lower value than 51. He believed that if the Govern ment had adopted the 40s. freehold if would not have been abused now as it formerly was. He hoped the Noble Lord therefore would see the propriety of lowering the qualification. With regard to the muni cipal improvements which the Noble Lord suggested, he (Mr Wyse) was glad the Noble Lord recognised the same necessity for an extension of the franchise in towns as in the case of counties. He (Mr. Wyse) repeated that he was glad that this Bill had been in troduced as it had elicited from the Right Hon. Baronet and the Noble Lord, the expression of prin ciples which he hoped the Government would be pre pared to carry fully into operation. Sir R. PEEL said there were one or two points which he wished to explain. He had said that in some towns in Ireland it was impossible to apply the English principle, namely , to give the right of the municipal franchise after occupation for two years, and the payment of all rates and taxes. He hadsince been informed that it was possible to apply this prin ciple to all the towns in Ireland, and therefore he proposed to substitute that provision at once. The Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had expressed an ap prehension that the assimilation of the stamp duties would have the effect of increasing the charges of conveyance. Now, the reverse was th e f act . Before the assimilation of the duties, the stamp duty on a conveyance of property up to the value of 1001. was 1/., but now it was reduced to 10s. Lord ELIOT did not mean to discuss at any length the occupatimn clause, b ut h e would j ust allude to an observation which h a d f a ll en f rom t h e N o bl e Lord respecting it. The Noble Lord said that in point of fact it was a Chandos clause. This was not ao, for by the Chandos clause the qualification con sisted of the payment of a certain amount of rent to the landlord, while the proposed occupation clause in the present Bill made the qualification to depend upon the tenant being rated to the poor. He did not think SUPPLY. The House then went into a Committee of Supply. Sir G. CLERK rose to move the civil contingencies and miscellaneous estimates. He felt glad to be able to assure the 'House that a considerable reduction would be made in the grant this year from what it had been last year. For the last year, the sum required was 130,000/, while for the present, he should only move for 100,0001. for the payment of the civil contingencies. Mr. WILLIAMS protested against the enormous sums which were voted annually to defray the expenses of Ambassadors at Foreign Courts. There was a charge of 4,1451. for the expenses of the embassy to Hanover. Now, the least thing, he thought, which the King of Ha novercould do, in return for the 21,0001. which he received annually from this country, was to take care of its inte rests at his own Court. He objected also to a charge which he saw for the conveyance, in some of the vessels of war, of two Princes of Prussia and their respective_ suites—Prince Adelberg from Rio de Janiero to Pera, and another Prince from Java to Beyrout, and thence to Constantinople. He thought it quite enough to furnish them with vessels to convey them and their suites from one place to another without at the same time paying the 14. objection za rd and ex penses of their passage. There was another charge, of l a t v w er a y s singular 4d n . a , tu th re e , to amo w u h n i t ch Main's bill o in h is f cost s in an official ap actionca city, brought.he n against Lord Lord Brougham, ofheMehsasdrs.a foro objected ee setenddianlg outso t o Chan cellor of England. He thoug ht th a t if the Lord Chan cellor left himself open in his o ffi cial capacity to such a charge, he oug chargesht to pay that it were ad himself. m il e e the ev e e r r n y heavy ors to some of our petty colonies—for instance, to Van Diemen's Land and New Zealand, in each of which the cost was 8001. That w as a monstrous charge. Why the population of New Zealand did not amount to more than 5,000 persons altogether. It ought to be shown whether such charg©s were at all necessary. There were several others of a similar kind, but he referred to these as being of the largest amount. Again, the ex penses for robes and collars for the Knights of the seve ral Orders were charged at 1,2021, and the bill of Messrs. Gerrard and Co. for repairing the same was no less than 1,1521. Now this was an expenditure to which he altogether objected, for he thought the. Knights themselves ought to pay for their own decorations. Then there was the funeral of the late Duke of Sussex. No one more highly esteemed that lamented nobleman when alive, nor had greater veneration for his memory, but still he thought that a charge of 1,3521. for his funeral expenses could and ought to have been avoided. With respect to colonial bishops, they had been often told in that Mouse when the matter was discussed, that they gave rise to no public expenditure. Now, he found that no less than five of those colonial bishops were receiving the public money, and employing our ships of war and steamers, in conveying them from one place to another. They were the Bishops of Jamaica, Newfoundland, Tasmania, Gibraltar—and with respect to the latter he found a charge of 210/. for the conveyance of him self and suite on board her Majesty's steam-vessel, the Devastation, from Gibraltar to Constantinople and back. He thought it was quite enough to have sup plied the Right Rev. Prelate with the passage in a Go vernment vessel, without also paying for the expenses of his suite. There was another item, which he re quested the Right Hon. Baronet to be good enough to explain. It was to the Bishop of Chester for preachers in Lancashire, for eleven years and a half, begin ning on the 15th of April, 1832, and ending on the 10th of October, 1843, 1,3221. Bs. He sup posed that the money bad been refused by the late Government, and hence the present demand. He should like to know the reason that could be assign:d for another another singular vote, namely, for watering Parkgate-street, in Dublin, in the summers of 1841 and 1842, 68/. 17s. 6d. There was another vote to which ho wished to call attention, namely, the sum of 4001. for the College of St. David's. He did not regret that there was such an item ; he only complained of the sum as being too small, being quite inadequate to supply a good system of education for the clergy of Wales who were educated there. In fifteen parishes, in the immediate neighbourhood of that college, the tithes were in the hands of one lay impropriator to the amount of not less than 6,000/. each parish, thus furnishing 4,000!. to that single layman, while the twenty-one clergymen who served those parishes received 71/. lOs. from each. He mentioned these facts to show that there was no induce ment held out to men of ability and education to enter the Church there, and that to those who did enter it, the means of obtaining a good education was not furnished. He thought, if the funds of St. David's College were en riched, it would confer a most important benefit on the Established Church in that part of the country. The two richly endowed universities, Oxford and Cambridge, re ceived 2,000/. annually from the public funds ; and the colleges and universities of Scotland received annually 7,080/. from the same source ; and the Dublin Society in Ireland received 12,6781., besides 1.5001. a year for the ordinary purposes of education ; and last year the London University received 4,548/. from this House. When sums were thus liberally expended in other quar ters, he trusted that the case of St. David's College would be taken into consideration by the Government, and he assured them that the cause of the great extent to which Dissent existed in that part of the country . had been mainly owing to the want of suffivient provision for the clergy of the Established Church there, and to the not affording them the means of a liberal and en lightened education, which every clergyman of the Church of England ought to have. Dr. BOW RING said there was one item on which he would take the liberty of asking a question. The Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton (Lord Palmerston) when in office had pointed out the disadvantage of having our diplomatic interests dependent in a great measure upon strangers, who were used us intepreters by our Minis nisters in eastern countries, and had shown the neces sity of educating some young men of this country in the languages of the East, for the purpose of acting as interpreters in negotiations. He (Dr. Bowring) there fore wanted to know whether there were any young men exercising public functions of that nature in Con stantinople ? Sir G. CLERK said that the expenses of the embassy at Constantinople were necessarily increased by . having an establishment of dragomans, and the inconvenience of employing foreigners in that capacity had been very strongly felt. English subjects had in consequence been instructed for some time back in the Turkish language, in order that they might, when opportunity offered, take the place of those foreigners. There could be no doubt that solid advantages would be derived from the em ployment in this capacity of persons having the interests and feelings of this country at heart, instead of merely employing foreigners. The system which had been referred to by the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton was still carried on. The Hon. Member for Coventry had alluded to the expense arising from foreign princes and foreigners of distinction on the occasion of their obtaining a passage in some of her Majesty's ships. The saving of the sums i nc l u d e d i n t hi s i tem would be very small, and not worthy of the consideration of this country. With regard to the sums allowed for the con veyance of governors of colonies, it should be considered that the charges for many years past had been anything but extravagant. With respect to the charges for con veying out the colonial bishops, the expenses had been very small, and as the salaries of those bishops were also very small, he thought it could not be complained of that the Government had undertaken that charge upon itself. As to the charge for sending back the envoy from the Imaum of Muscat—the fact was, that the envoy had brought hither very valuable presents, which were the more valuable on account of the effect which they had of more strongly cementing our friendship with a useful ally, and as the envoy was accompanied by a very large retinue, it would not have been worthy of this Government to allow him to go back at his own expense. The charge of 2001. for the Bishop of Chester was for the purpose of enabling him to pay for four preachers in his diocese. Sir C. NAPIER said that the charge in some instances for the removal of functionaries from one station to another was no more in each ease than it would cost the func tionary to remove from his country house to his town house; but he did not care whether the expense was only 11. or 1,0001., the principle was the same.—(Hear.) He saw some estimates for the expenses of the civil service in China. He did not understand thoroughly the nature of the disagreements between Sir H. Pottinger and Admiral Parker, and he should like to have an ex planation from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. There was another point which he did not understand —the expenses under the head of civil and military service in the Levant. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the estimate was for expenses incurred in 1841, and paid in 1843. Sir C. NAPIER could not see why the country should be put to so much expense for the benefit or those civil officers. When an admiral was sent out he got an allowance of plate—that was to say some half-dozen old silver spoons.—(A laugh.) But he was at once charged ten per cent. upon the value of the plate, which he was required to return, and which he could procure from any Jew (upon the same condition) for seven per cent. —(A laugh.) He thought that all ought to be placed upon equal terms. When civil officers and governors were sent abroad, it would he better for the naval ser• vice and for the pUblic purse if they were sent out in the Government steam-packets, instead of sending upon such a service a fine frigate, and putting the captain to great inconvenience by compelling him to give up his cabin. When Sir Robert Wilson was sent out to Gibraltar, a fine frigate of fifty guns was em ployed to convey him, and was occupied five or six months in the service, although the Government had at their disposal at the time a magnificent steam. ship upon the station, which would have carried him in a few days, and had the most splendid accommodations for the (governor and his suite. The accommodations were quite good enough for her Majesty—(A laugh)— and, in fact, her Majesty had sailed in that very ship.— (Hear, and a laugh.) Ike would take the sense of the House on this part of the estimates.—(Hear.) Mr. lIUME said that his llon. Friend had been mis understood. He had not complained of the expenses of the establishment for the education and training of dragomans at Constantinople. He had only asked how many young men there were under instruction, and what progress had been made. He wished an explana- tion respecting a sum of 6001. stated to have been paid for the expenses of Mr. M'Gregor in Norway, and in respect to some negotiations as to the Stade duties. It was pro mised last year that something should be done as to these duties, and before he proceeded with any further remarks he would give the opportunity to the Govern ment of stating any thing in reference to them they might be enabled to do. Lord STANLEY said, before the Hon. Member's question was answered, the House, perhaps, would permit him to give an explanation in reference to the remarks of the Gallant Officer (Sir C. Napier) on the way in which Sir Robert Wilson had been conveyed to Gib raltar. He (Lord Stanley) would take the liberty of stating that there was no class of persons who suffered such great losses from the expenses necessary to take them to their destinations as Governors. In sending out Ministers a grant was made, but there was none for Governors, and nine-tenths of them were for the first, second, and sometimes for the third year, out of pocket for moneys they were compelled to raise to enable them to accept and get out to their appointments. There was no outfit ; but there was a certain fixed rate for them selves and families—be the family large or be it small —according to the length of passage, and each Governor had a right to demand that sum of money. It did so happen sometimes that a ship was going out the very— Sir C. NAPIER—The Warspite was not going out at spithead, and was n o t anywhere. She was lying under orders. Lord STANLEY—Yes, she was at Spithead or Ply mouth. Now, the passage-money to which Si r R o b ert Wilson was entitled for going out was 200 L, and Sir Alexander Woodford was entitled to the same sum for his p a ssage-money homewards. The Warspite was lying idle, and it cost no more to send her out with Sir Robert Wilton to Gibraltar, and bringing Sir Alexander home, than to pay to those two officers their passage money. On the contrary, it cost less for the payments actually made to them, which amounted to 911. 10s. each ; so that on the point of economy the cost had been less than that if the one had gone out and the other had come back in the ordinary packet. But he would ask the House whether there was not a certain amount of consideration attached to a representative of her Ma jesty in going out thus to his government.—(Hear.) He did not by any means say that expense was to be no consideration, but if a ship was thus in commission and was lying idle, lie did consider it had been, under the circumstances, advantageously employed in conferring power and consideration upon an officer going to take the command of so important a Governorship and for• tress as that of Gibraltar.—(Hear.) Sir C. NAPIER did not like that sort of reasoning at all. It was not the mere expense of going from Spit head to Gibraltar and back, but it was the expense of putting a ship in commission, and getting her crew, and making her fit for sea and for duty, that was to be looked at. Ships were not fitted out but at an enormous cost to the country ; they were not fitted out for passage boats, but for far different work. He recollected well being captain of a ship for two years, and all he had to do during that period was to take out a Governor anti a Commissioner to the West Indies.—(Laughter.) H e called it great waste.—(Hear,hear.) He repeat e d, an d he was sure the country and the service would agree with him, that British ships of war ought not to be made into passage-boats. Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE, in reference to the Hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Hume 's) other question, begged to say that the expenses now charged for Mr. M'Gregur were incurred in the year 1842 and in the early part of 1843. With regard to the general question as to the Stade duties, he was happy to say an arrangement was likely to be come to very speedily, but the nature of that ar rangement it would be improper in him to communicate. Mr. HUME said, he observed in these estimates that the public were charged with fees for the conferring honours upon individuals. If there were such fools to be found as to seek these things, he really thought they ought themselves to pay for them.—(Laughter, and Hear, hear.) He thought a Committee upon this and ▪ some other items would do a deal of good, and he did 5 not know but what he should move for one. Again, in ▪ • p. 11, he found au item, 101/, for a surgeon for the Sealy