The Sun. — London, England, 1839-06-15 00:00:00

i i 47 . --- '2E. Ls co enedict n d f °r ig Col' of the 1:)W ° I :inrn3 'rinit! Sa' p Sea. broke ;olio itorer, 'rinitY Peter's it to . .e fiol ,05••••• Col ectori Ref. l u sblo ' e h of to the 0011‘. old i A n. rN, °D in tile, iip °I K, P., been Rel. ureeY NT mow ►nern' rs anc ,sion The —Nos ,sent, w - ero olio' of re• exhi' es of :- ll° Ice 0f a ll . - D oti ,o 4 oing EVENING IfaliTlON. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS. Juxr. 14 The Royal Assent was given by Commission to ihe fol lowing Bills. The Commissioners were the Lord Chan cellor, Earl of Shaftesbury, and Lord Falkland :—To Designs Copyright Bill, Durham Court of Pleas Bill, Staffordshire Potteries &c., Police, Improvement, &c. Bill, Perth Police Bill. Eyemouth Harbour Bill. South Eastern Railway Bill, Liverpool and Manchester Extension Railway Bill, Great North of England Railway Bill, London and Birmingham Railway Bill, Parrett Naviga tion Bill, Brighton Gas Bill, Rishworth Reservoirs Bill, Witham Drainage Bill, Basingstoke Roads Bill, Norville and Shipton Roads Bill, Bury, Haslingden, &c. Roads Bill, Clitheroe, Blackkurn, &c. Roads Bill, Leeds and Harewnod Road Bill, Dover. Deal, and Sandwich Bill, Mills'. Estate Bill, Hulme's Estate Bill, 'Liles' Estate Bill, Ciun (Salop) Inelosure Bill, Cemberton (C..m bridge) Inelosure Bill, Rampton (Cambridge) Inclosure Bill, Barton (Cambridge) Inclosure Bill, Lardner's Di. vorce Bill. The House adjourned during pleasure. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his scat M a few minutes afterwards on the Woolsack. The Earl of RODEN moved, at the reqw2st of the Committee sitting on Irish affairs, for certai►► returns (as we understood) relative to crime in Ireland. Lord NIALMESBURY presented a petition from Ealing against the national system of education. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented a petition from Bath, praying for the better observance of the Sabba , h Day. Lord RODEN presented petitions from the county of Derby to the same effect. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the Vintners and Licensed Victuallers of the City of London, complaining of the hours to which they were restricted in keeping their houses opened, and pray ing that those hours might be increased. Also a petition from the Incorporated Coopers of Glasgow, com plaining of the alteration of the law respecting colonial and other produce, by which their trade had been injured, and praying for a reduction of duty ; also a petition from Bourne, in the county of Lincoln, praying for a system of education without any test ; and also petitions from Edinburgh, and several places both in Scotland and England, praying for the adoption of a penny postage. Lord MELBOURNE in aswer to a question from Lord Brougham, stated that he hoped peace would still be preserved in the East, notwithstanding the two forces at present assumed a very menacing aspect. No accounts, however, of any actual collision having taken place had been received. The Duke of MONTROSE presented a petition from the Senate of the University of Glasgow, praying that due care might be taken in regard to publishing an au thorized version of the Bible in Scotland. The Earl of HADDINGTON said it would be satis factory to know what arrangement her Majesty's Govern ment intended to make on this subject, which was one of the deepest importance. Lord MELBOURNE admitted the great importance of the subject, and the object which her Majesty' Govern ment had had in view in framing the plan which had been been stated in the other House, was in the first place to take care that the Bible should be disseminated at as cheap a rate as possible ; that the price of it should not be enhanced by the levying of any tax, duty, or fee, for the benefit of any person ; and also, that sufficient security should be taken—indeed as strong security as bad ever been taken hitherto—for printing the Bible according to the authorised version of the text, and as it had beer, acted on both by the Church of England and Scotland. The plan which the Government intended to propose was as follows—To incorporate by charter a body composed of the Lord Advocate and Solicitor. General for Scotland, for the time being, together with the Moderator of the General Assembly, and two divines and two laymen, members of the Scotch Church. To this body was to be committed the exclusive right of printing or importing bibles, under certain regulations, however, as that a free importa tion was to be allowed of all Bibles published (as we un derstood) by authority of England. And this body were to have the power also of licensing readers and collaters of the press. to correct the printing of Bibles, provided the Board were satisfied of their qu.difications No fee was to be charged for affix:mg- their imprimatur to any Bibles, or licensing any correctors of the press. And the Lord Advocate might apply for injunctions against parties who printed Bibles without the sanction of the Board. WEST INDIA COLONIES. • Lord BROUGHAM (in a tone of voice, for the Noble and Learned Lord, peculiarly inaudible) made some re marks as to the condition of the negroes in certain West India Colonies, as, at Montserrat, where there was an over population and a proportionate rate of wages, 6d. a day sterling, whereas in other colonies the negroes could get 2s. 3d. a day ; but, under the existing laws, they could not avail themselves of this advantage, because they could not emigrate. The Marquis of NORMANBY admitted the subject was one of very great importance, and the Noble and Learned Lord was right in supposing that it had engaged his most anxious attention. Efforts were making to induce the local legislators to reconsider the laws passed in 1836, and he hoped they would be attended with the best effects. After a few words from Lord ASHBURTON and Lord BROUGHAM in explanation, the conversation dropped. The Bills on the table were forwarded a stage and the House adjourned, at Six o'clock, to Monday. HOUSE OE COMMONS, Juxa 14. The gallery was not opened till half-past four o'clock in consequence of the call of the House, adopted on the motion of Lord Ashley, which, however, was, we under stood, ultimately withdrawn. On entering the House the object which at ence struck etery person, was the National Petition, placed upon a huge wooden circular frame-work, at least five feet in diameter ; it was ~ moored" on the opposition side, upon the lowest front bench of which Mr. T. Attwood sat. THE NATIONAL PETITION. After some petitions, which were utterly inaudible, owing to the buzz of conversation, Mr. T. ATTWOOD was called upon by the Speaker, He id and rose amidst some c h eer i ng. Sir, I less u rise .n to present thi s extraor di nary' petition, one no n portant than extraordinary.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") hear.")i am aware the rules of the House will not allow me to trespass upon their attention by going into any argument in defence of the great principles which the petition lays down, therefore, I shall not attempt to go beyond what the rules of the House allow.---(Hear, hear.) I shall confine myself to explaining briefly the contents of the petition and the circumstances under which it originated, and perhaps the House win indulge me with a few words of explanation of the peculiar circumstances in which I am situated with regard to it. The petition originated in Birmingham ; it was adopted at a large meeting there on the 6th of August last ; immediately after this it was 'sent to Glasgow and adopted there, in a similar manner, where it received upwards of 90,000 signatures, having received a nearly equal number in Bir mingham and the surrounding districts. It was then handed round the country generally, and 214 towns, coun_ ties, and districts, have adopted the petition nearly uni versally. The signatures amount to 1,280,000 and up wards. The principle was affirmed by not less than 500 meetings, at all of which those who had signed it had stated that they were suffering great distress, which had been too long disregarded by this House. I attribute the whole of the recent discussions to the sufferings of the people—sufferings which they have long eniured with admirable patience, and which have been too long disregarded by this House. I hope the House will give its serious atten tion to the contents of this petition, and not think that because the humbler classes of workmen are the sufferers that it is not entitled to the consideration of this House.—( Cheers.) It will be most painful to the honest men who have signed this petition if their Delegates, who, by the favour of the House, have been permitted to wit ness its presentation, should carry back a report that the petition had been treated with disrespect by the House.—( Hear, hear.) Many who have signed it arc at present suffering under extreme distress—distress of such a nature, that gentlemen born in the lap of affluence and luxury, whose wants are all supplied by the property they have derived from their forefathers, can form but a very feeble idea of the agony which an honest man suffers, whose hands are able, and whose heart is will ing to work, but yet is, with all that, unable to get a living. At all the meetings which have been held the persons attending them have confined themselves strictly to the legal pursuit of their constitutional rights; and they have been induced to do so on account of the in juries and sufferings which they have endured for so many years, without finding any efficient relief. The hand• loom weavers, the artisans, the agricultural labourers— all these classes find themselves aggrieved ; they find that they have no sympathy from this House, and they consi der themselves bound to use every just and legal exer tion to recover the whole of their constitutional rights. I hope Hon. Members will not be prejudiced against this demand by thinking there is any slight or any im proper reflection upon themselves. All they say is, that the Members of this House, in consequence of birth, parentage, education, wealth and habits of life, have not shown that anxiety for the suffering of the lower classes which they think is absolutely ne cessary to the enjoyment of their rights as British sub jects. They have, therefore, adopted this measure for the purpose of recovering their ancient rights. They and their fathers and grandfathers have trusted to the noble men of England to protect them, but no protection having been given to them for years past, they have been obliged to have recourse to the measure, in order to obtain their just rights. They say they only ask fur a fair day's wages for a fair day's work, and that if you cannot give them that, and food and clothing for their families, then they say they will put forth every power the law allows them to change the representation of this House, that they will use all means to act upon the electors, by which they hope ultimately to produce such a change of opinion as finally to lead to success.—( Hear, hear. ) I have no doubt that they will succeed ultimately, but I trust in God they will shortly succeed in obtaining all the objects of the petition.-4 Hear, hear.) The first ob ject of the honest men, who every one of them produce four times more than they want, and yet their country re fuses them one fourth of the value of their labour, not only that but some of them are put at three* Lays' work a. Is eak— the first object of these honest men who are pressed down by the hand of oppression—and I am sure that such being the case, the House will not be surprised at their using stronger language than they otherwise would leave used —( Hear, hear) —the first part of the pe petition claims Univeral Suffrage, it claims Representation Coequal with Taxation, whieli was the ancient law of England ; it says that they have been bowed down to the \ earth ; and then it goes on to describe the suffering they have endured, and that they came befure this House to tell them that the capital of the master must not be de prived of its due reward; and that the labourer must not be prevented from having the wages of his labour, and that the law t;.at makes labour clieeli should be abolished. They then go on to demand Universal Suffrage in the lari2uage used by oar forefathers in the celebrated Bill of Rights. They then go en to show that wOn the Consti tution grants a right it must be understood to guarantee the means of exercising it. The Constitution guarantees f , ..t0r0 of eh aim), and thrse petitioners contend that Vc.:e ilbsolutely necessary to secure tre, Glom ,:f rlectit,n, abd th,refore they contend that they have a constitutional right to Vote by Ballot.— ( Cheers.) They go on further, and claim Annual Pal-liaments, agree- abletothe constitutional Acts of Settlement, which orders that the Parliaments he triennial or more frequently ; and under the old practice of the Constitution they were minus]. They then go on to show that the labour of representatives ought to be rewarded.— . (Loud laughter.) That was the ancient pactice of the Constitution, as laid down by Andrew Marvel ; and I could to-morrow apply to my constituents at Birmingham, the Constitution authorising Members of this House to be paid the wages of attendance by a rate on their constituents.— ( Much laughter.) They consider, unless their right is restored, that they cannot have Members of this House properly feeling and understanding the wants and sufferings and distresses of the people. The fifth demand is that the Property Qualification of Members of that House should be abolished. Now, in all these live points of the petition I most cordially agree, and I do sincerely hope that by the process of public opinion, the day may not be distant when the whole of these five points will be granted to the people ; that they will have them in full measure, in full weight and pureness, and no mistake about the matter. —( Cheers and laughter.) Sir. G. H. SMYTH rose to order. He contended that the Hon. Member was transgressing the rules of the House. He himself had been prevented fiom speaking on the pre sentation of a petition the other night, and he could not conceive how any Hon. Member, with that ridiculous pics! of machinery. could transgress the rules of the House.—( Leu:l cries of " Chair and order.") The SPEAK ER said if the Hen. Member appealed to him as to what was the strict rule of the House, he must unquestionably say that no Hon. Member had a 'right to speak at any length in presenting a petition. But when .the House considered the peculiar circumstances under which the petition was brought forward—( Loud cheers)—and the position in which the Hon. Member stood, they would perhaps be inclined to grant him some indulgence.—( Cheers. ) Sir G. H. SMYTH as an individual would enter his protest against it.—(Cries of " Oh.") Mr. ATT WOOD resumed—Sir, I thank you for the indulgence you have extended to me, and I shall not tres pass long upon the attention of the House.—( Hear, hear.) But I beg leave to say a few words with regard to my own peculiar position. Although I most cordially support ' every part of the petition, and am ready to sup port and verify every word of it, and although 1 am J determined to use every legal means in my power vu - carry it into law, I must say that many reports have gone abroad of arguments that were used, or that were said to have been used, in various parts of the country, which I disavow. I never, at any period of my life, recommended any principles except those of peace, law, order, loyalty, and union, and that, Sir, in good faith, not holding one face here and another out'of doors—(Cheers)—tl face which you now see, I have always held out of doors and within doors, and my determination is to do all that lies in my power as a man, a Christian, and as a gentleman, to work out the wishes of the petitioners. —( Cheers.) Having stated so much, I wash my hands of any tale of physical force_( Loud cheers)—or arms. I want no arms but the will of the people, legally, firmly, and constitutionally EA. pressed—( Cheers)—and if the people will only send into this House a similar petition:from every parish in England, and if they will go on using every argument which justice, reason, and wisdom dictate, they will create such an action upon the human mind, which will again act upon the Members of this House, that when the whole people shall ask for a remedy of their grievances, in the manner dic tated by the Constitution the country—when they only ask for that which belongs to them by the Constitution of the country, I hope, that though Honourable Gen tlemen here, differ from me in opinion, I will not in sinuate that they differ from me in feeling—l say, if the people go oti , washing their hands from all threats and insolence, but go on firmly, honestly, and constitutionally, I am sure their demands will meet with respectful attention. Having said so much, I will now read the prayer of the petition :—" May it therefore please your Hon. House to take measures, and to use your utmost endeavours, by all constitutional means, to have granted, that every man of lawful age, sound mind, and unconta minated by crime, have the right of voting for Members of Parliament—that you should cause a law to be passed giving the right of voting by secret Ballot—that the duration of Parliaments might be again limited to one year—that you will abolish all Property Qualifications in your Hon. House, and providing that, as in former times, all Members of Parliament might be paid for their services."—(Cheers.) I thank the House for the patient hearing you have given me upon this occasion. —(Cheers.) I will trespass no further, but move that the petition be brought up.— (Laughter.) The Hon. Member had unrolled a con siderable portion of the petition, and took its heading up to the table amidst loud laughter and cheers. Mr. FIELDING—I beg to support the prayer of the petition. Mr. ATT WOOD then moved that the petition be printed.—Ordered. The SPEAKER—Does the Hon. Member mean to found any motion on the petition ? Mr. ATTWOOD—Yes, Sir; I beg to give notice that on the first Supply Day next week 1 shall move that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole Honse, to take the petition into consideration. Mr. G. W. WOOD presented a petition from Kendal, against the Government scheme for national education. Mr. PULMAN, the Deputy Usher of the Black Rod, advanced to the table, and requested the attendance of this [-louse in the House of Peers, to hear the Royal Assent given to several Bills (for which see Lords' report). On the return of the Speaker, Lord ASHLEY said, as there was a very full attend ance of Members, and as the notice of the call had an swered his object, he would, if the House permitted him, withdraw his motion for calling the House over. The motion was accordingly withdrawn. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he intended to move that the House sit to-morrow, in order to receive the Report of the Committee of Privileges. The SPEAKER suggested that petitions relative to education be forthwith presented. Petitions against the Ministerial plan of education were presented by Mr. Freshfield, from Cornwall ; Sir W. Fol lett, from Exeter; Sir J. Graham, from Carlisle, and the congregation of the Lock Chapel, Westminster; Sir G. Clerk, from different parts of Scotland. Mr. POULETT THOMSON presented a petition from Manchester, signed by 22,000 persons, approving the Government plan of national education. Dr. LUSHINGTON presented a petition from the Tower Hamlets, as we understood, in favour of a national plan of education, which should be open to all sects of religion. Mr. HINDLE Y presented a petition in favour of the Government plan ofnational education, and another against it, from some place in Salop. Mr. DIVETT presented a petition from Exeter, pray ing the House to make no further grant for the purposes of education, unless all sects equally participated in the benefits to be derived from it. Mr. CHAS. LUSHINGTON presented petitions in avour of the Government plan of education. Sir ROBERT PEEL presented 15 petitions from the Wesleyan congregations of Hull and Bradford against the Government Plan of Education. Also similar petitions from Cheltenham and different parts of Yorkshire. Also a petition signed by 8,000 inhabitants of Manchester. Petitions to the same effect were presented by Lord Dungannon from Durham, and Stockton:on-Tees ; by Mr. W. Wynn, from Montgomeryshire ; by Mr. Pakington, from Croydon, axd four other places in Surrey ; by Mr. Law, from Zion College, and four parishes in the City of London ; and by Sir Charles Burrell, from parishes in Kent and Essex. Mr. PRYME presented a petition from Huntingdon, praying that any grant for educational purposes might be impartial. Mr. E. BULLER presented a petition from Burton. on-Trent, in favour of the Government plan. Captain AL SAGER presented a petition agreed to at a meeting at the Horns Tavern, Kennington, signed by 760 persons, against the Government plan of national education. Mr. HAWES wished to ask a question of his Hon. Friend. He wished to know whether he presented that as the petition of a meeting over which he presided, held at that tavern. _ _ Captain ALSAGER presented the petition as th• re sult of that meeting. Mr. HAWES then felt bound to object to its being received in such a character, because he held in his hand a petition from a gentleman who had been put in the Chair, after his Honourable Friend had been driven out of it by a majority of the meeting.—( Hear.) He was a most respectable gentleman—Mr. Curling, the son of a County Magistrate ; and he, with the others who signed the petition stated that the meeting was not a public meeting, as it professed to be; the parties being admitted to it only upon the showing of a card. They protested against the petition being received as the petition of that meeting—that considerable confusion took place, and that the members of the Established Church who were present on that occasion were certainly not peacemakers—( Hear, hear)—that a majority of those present had voted against the resolutions proposed by his Hon. Friend. Under these circumstances he trusted the House would consider that he was perfectly justified in ob jecting to the petition being received as the petition of that meeting. Mr. HUME suggested that the better plan would be to have the petition read. Lord J. RUSSELL said the petition was that of the untZersigned inhabitants, &c. —( Cheers. ) Mr. hl AWES, of course, under those circumstances, could have no objection to the petition being received, but as his lion. Friend had stated it as the petition of that meeting, he had felt bound to protest against it. Captain ALSAGER could only repeat what he had stated before, that the petition was the result of the meet ing over which he presided. No one was admitted to the meeting without a card similar to one which he then held in his hand, and which bound all who used it to acquiesce in the decision of the Chairman.—( Loud cheers.) There were about 200 of the Liberals who gained admittance, and caused a considerable row. He wished and tried for some time to make an explanation to them, that they had not met there for discussion.— (Loud cheers, and laughter.) The resolutions had been prepared to be agreed to, and those opposed to them had no business there.—(Renewed laughter.) As for his being turned out of the chair, his Honourable Friend was not present, or he would not have said so. No attempt to turn him out of the chair had been made • but when he found that he could not get a hearing he held up the reso lutions in large letters and put them as well as he was able, and he was informed by many gentlemen who were there that they were passed by a majority of at least four to one. A scene of riot and confusion then commenced, and the other party passed their resolutions. After he (Capt. A.) left the chair he supposed it was taken by Mr. Curling. Mr. KEMBLE said, from all he had heard, ho was convinced that the majority pr. sent were decidedly in favour of these resolutions. Mr. HAWES then brought up his petition. Petitions in favour of the Government plan of education were presented by Mr. Wyse from Carlisle, by Mr. A. White from Sunderland. Against it by Mr. Darby from Hastings ; by Mr. Kemble from Richmond • by Lord Hotharn from Cheshire ; and by Lord Sandon from Liverpool. Mr. BRISCOE asked the Noble Lord if the petition from Liverpool was against the present plan of education, or against the Government plan which had been withdrawn. Lord SANDON said he believed it was against the existing plan. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he would like to know against which plan the petition was directed, as it was of some importance. The petition was then read by the Clerk. Lord SANDON said that the signatures were being attached to the petition to the latest moment that time allowed, and he could state that one of the petitions to which 800 signatures were attached, was against the second scheme. . . Lord - JOHN Vy RUSSELL said that the petition which had just been read was as much against one scheme as against the other, the fact was the plan described in the petition as the plan petitioned against bore not the slightest resemblance to either of the plans which had been pro posed by the Government.—( Cheers and laughter.) Petitions against the Government plan of education were then presented by Sir Robert from the Members of the Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge ; by Acland, from various Wesleyan congregations in Soniersetshire and Cornwall ; by Mr. Puscy, from some places in Berkshire ; by Lord Lincoln, from various places in Nottinghamshire and Yorkshire; by Mr. Bing ham Bating, from places in Staffordshire ; by Mr. Gladstone, from Wesleyan congregations in Not tinghamshire; by Lord Ashley, to the number of thirty seven, of which twenty-five were from various Wesleyan congregations in London, one of which was of some impor tance, being from the congregation of the Central Chapel in Finsbury, signed by:1,420 persons, among whom was the Rev. Mr. - Jackson. the President of the Conference. Lord STANLEY presented petitions from Bolton, Preston, Doncaster, Rochdale, and twenty-one Wesleyan congregations in and near Sheffield, as well as from other places, against the Government scheme of education. Several other lioN. MENIBERS presented numerous peti• tions to the same effect. Upon the Order of the Day being read for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. HAWES postponed the petition of which be had given notice to present today till the next day of the House going into a Committee of Supply. Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the Hon. Member would not find it necessary to present the petition. Mr. HAWES said he should present it with consi perable reluctance, but it was the only course he had to pursue, unless the Noble Lord thought it was a case for his re-consideration—in which case he should have no ob jection to withdraw it. Mr. HOPE complained that his Hon. Colleague on the opposite side of the House had made a statement, as Ap peared by a report in the Morning Post newspaper of this day, upon presenting a petition yesterday to the House from his constituents, calculated to create a very improper impression. The petition purported to have come from the Diocesan Society of Gloucester. The meeting at which the petition was got up was adjourned; afterwards a person was called to the chair, and the petition was then agreed upon in favour of the scheme of education which had been abandoned by her Majesty's Government. The Hon. Gentlemen spoke amidst much interruption and confusion. Mr. PHIL POTTS said that the only object he had in making the statement be did was to show that the peti. tion could not be received as the petition of the individual who had signed it. JOINT STOCK BANKS. Mr. HUME gave notice that on Monday next he should put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject of the Joint Stock Banks, which subject the Hon. Gentleman had five or six weeks ago promised to fix a day to bring on. He hoped also that on Monday a period would be fixed for bringing on the Budget.—( Hear.) THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAI, JUNE 15, 1839. NATIONAL EDUCATION. Lord STANLEY said he rose in accordance with the vast majority of the petitioners who had sent in petitions to almost an unexampled extent, and in accordance he believed with the great majority of the enlightened population of this country, nut to meet the Government proposition by any doubtful or ambiguous course—( Hear, hear)—not to get rid of it by any side wind, or to avail himself of any Par liamentary form for the purpose of obtaining that which he durst not boldly and manfully meet, but he came for. ward openly to grapple with the sources of the evil of that plan, or of those plans, which had been introduced by the Government for the purpose of what they called a scheme of national education.—( Cheers.) He rose for the purpose of objecting to give the direct control and all but legislative authority over the moral and religious edu cation of the people of this country to a Board, or Com mittee, or a body of men—call it what they might—ex clusively political in their character—necessarily and of course fluctuating in their composition, and in the persons of whom they were constituted, and in whom there was no one element of fixed and defined principle occurring throughout all changes, namely, that by no possibility, and by no chance, could it happen that into that Board so pre siding over the moral and religious education of the people of the country could there be admitted one single person from those to whom the law of the land entrusted the re ligious education of the people. He might have allowed this question to have gone into the Committee of Supply, and there have objected to the grant of 30,0001. for the system, but if he had done so he knew well the accusations that he would have been subject to, and the charges of il liberality that would have been heaped upon him. It would have been said that he had resisted an object of pa ramount importance, and that he had stood in the way of educating the people out of the national funds. He might have taken another course and might have introduced a motion directly condemning the plan proposed by her Majesty's Ministers. He thought at one time that that would have been a desirable course, and one not open to objection. He rejoiced that further consideration had made him abandon that course as too in definite. From what the Noble Lord had said, it would have been easy for him to have slipped away from the plan of yesterday—( Hear, hear)—and when he had beeo informed that his plan bad been scouted almost by the de rision of the country, the Noble Lord would have to-night consoled himself, and consoled his friends, by saying, in a triumphant voice, Oh I its true, all this cry was raised against eur plan of yesterday, but this is our plan to-day. So long as they had this Committee of Privy Council to tally irresponsible, that Committee would remain the fruit ful source of plans, each successive plan embodying the objection which had been urged with irresistible force to the one that preceded it. And so long would there be another and another scheme in violation of those principles they contended for, extracting from the people a grant for that which they felt it impossible to support. He objected to the source from which these plans, in such rapid succession, and with so little deliberation, went forth. He objected to the irresponsible authority vested in her Majesty's Council, and from that irresponsible and despo tic Council he appealed to the deliberate judgment—the constitutional authority and the legal control of the Bri tish Parliament.—( Hear, bear.) If the proceedings of this Committee, or if the constitution of this Committee, had been of a nature restricted to purely Executive and Ministerial purposes--if it had been, as perhaps it might be represented now, a mere change of the authority, which was formerly vested in the Lords of her Majesty's Trea sury—a mere transfer for superintending and executing purposes clearly and definitely laid down by Parliament— for granting, on certain conditions, known and recognised beforehand, a system for the education of the people fixed by the two Estates, whosebrinciples were:known and un derstood, and not capable of being acted on partially by those administering the grant, he should have taken no objection to a Ministerial authority of that sort passing from the Lords of the Treasury to the Privy Council ; but the House was now called upon to delegate by one branch of the Legislature powers to an uncontrolled and irresponsible body —powers the House itself knew not how extensive to a Committee of the Privy Council who might execute those powers with perfect impunity.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord upon open ing his scheme at the commencement of the Session stated that he thought it better that they should form that Board or Committee, not of persons belonging to one party or another, by which he meant to speak, not of political parties, but of those who adhered to the Church or dis sented from it. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—No. Lord STANLEY—By a reference to the Noble Lord's speech on that occasion it would be found that that was so, and that he said it should depend on that House whether their system should be supported or not. From the Noble Lord's statement on that occasion he took the li bel ty of dissenting altogether. He thought it most objec tienable that a system of such vital importance as the systematic education of the people of this country should necessarily be made to depend upon, and to fluctuate with every change of Government, that it should necessarily be mixed up with every party question—( Hear, hear—that the support of this or of that system should be made to depend, not upon the merits of the system and the way in which it was conducted, but upon the political feelings of parties, and that a bare majority of that House might have the effect of altering it.—( Hear, hear.) He thought it most objectionable th a t f un d s f or t h a t p ur p o se s ho u ld b e placed in the hands of Gov ernment un f ettere d by an y con condition of applying them to the furtherance of their own political objects and friends. He would ask the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and . lie would as k t h ose w h o dis sented from the doctrines of the E sta bli s h ed Church, whether they, upon their part, would consent to such a trust in a Government, entertaining the con scientious opinion that the National Church, and the National Church alone, should be the vehicle of education of those to whom the national funds should be administeredi?—( Hear, bear.) He would ask whethetrhoatf such a Government they would not feel the greatest p os . sible jealousy—a jealousy founded on the principle, not being restricted by Parliament, they might apply i t to their own views--( Hear, hear)—and if there w as a dan ger of entrusting funds of this description to any Govern ment, without specifying the principles on which i th a t Go vernment should apply them, he would ask f it were not doubly dangerous to entrust them to a Government, in a state of things that might arise, where the Government was so weak as to be struggling for existence—( Hear)_. and anxious to lav hold, fur its existence, upon half-a dozen persons upon any occasion—( Much cheerio;;)—and upon any matter— a nd where, if they should, in violation o f a condition imposed by Parliament, have applied the great est part of those funds in supporting their Parliamentary supporters thoughout the country, the only check on such a Government should be the not very formidable check of a censure of the House for not having exercised the powers with which they had been entrusted, in furtherance of the views of that very majority itself ?—(Cheers.) But the Noble Lord said he thought it desirable that the Board should have the confidence of that House, and that, upon that confidence it should be made to depend from time to time, whether the system introduced by the Boar,-1 should be continued or not. Now, did this not of itself introduce a system of constant change ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it a system in which the nation country could place the sEghte , t confidence ? The British arid Foreign School Society had impiessed upon thu Government the para- mount importance of establishing, as a preliminary to any system of national education, such a Board as would enjoy the confidence of every religious denomination. Of what religious denomination did the Noble Lord flatter himself the Board of Privy Council, as now constituted, and the systems which had been lately propounded, enjoy the unlimited confidence?--( Hear, hear.) With regard to the Established Church, the great majority of its laity, clergy, and Prelates, CR_ tirely dissented from the Government schemes.—( Hear, hear.) Next to the Established Church, which religious denomination was most active and zealous in the cause of education, of all those sects into which the other Protes. tant portions of the community were divided? The Noble Lord would answer—or if not, the country would tell him —the Wesleyan Methodists.—(Cheers.) That body, who from the time of John Wesley had afforded, he would not say a contrast, but an object of emulation, to the Esta blished Church, in zeal for education—education properly so called—combined with religious instruction—(Cheers) —had expressed their entire dissent from the Government plan.--( Hear, hear.) Which of the other denominations had come forward, as a body, to support the Government scheme? The utmost that the Noble Lord could allege in his favour, was an expressive silence.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Whereas, from a great portion of •the . Dis senting body, petitions had come up, equally adverse to the Government plan—( Hear, hear)--objecting to the con stitution of this Committee, as controuling the education of the country, upon the ground of its being a hody fluctu ating in its character, ansi political in its objects.—( Hear, hear.) And upon the ground, further, that it did not carry with it the support of the great body of the religious denominations of the country. He (Lord Stanley) ob jected to it still more, as a Churchman, because he felt that that the constitution of this body was such, as to give the religious education of the people to a body exclusively of laymen, independent of the clergy of the Esta blished Church.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) The com petence of such a body to such a duty, depended upon what was meant by education.—( Hear, hear.) He could understand those who were for limiting educa tion to the mere cultivation of the intellect—the infusing into the minds of children a certain degree of worldly knowledge, altogether apart from spiritual instruction ; he could understand why they should think, and he thought pith them, that with such a system of education the clergy had nothing to do—( Hear, hear)—and that such a system, if it should be superintended at all, ought to be superintended by laymen.—( Hear, hear.) But that was not the view in which education was regarded by the great body of the people of this country; or in which it was re garded by the Constitution and the laws of this country.— ( Hear, hear.) In early times, before the Reformation, . . _ the education of the people had been entirely in the hands of the Catholic clergy. He, however, was not con tending that education should be wholly in the hsnds of the clergy. lie was only contending that it was not to be considered as entirely separate from religious instruction.—( Cheers.) In the old French of the period, he found it laid down by the Chief Justice of England so far back as in the reign of Henry II.—" La doctrine et l'instruction des enfans est une chose spiri tuelle," and it had been deemed by the laws as under the direction of the spiritual authorities. —( Ironical cheers.) Hon. Gentlemen seemed to sneer at this. But still the feeling of the people of this country, and the dicta of the laws, supported the doctrine that education was not a thing apart from religion. Not that it was to be solely committed to the clergy—(Great cheering from the Mi nisterial benches)—but that it was to be combined with religion—that it was to be dependant upon religion— (Renewed cheers)—upon religious doctrine—upon reli gious faith—(Continued cheering )._that these must be in. terwoven with the whole system of education, controuling the minds and influencing the principles of the children of this country.—(Loud cheering.) The Noble Lord oppo site bad on a former occasion, speaking of the Act of Toleration and the freedom of education, &c. —points which nobody at the present day disputed—the Noble Lord had thought it right to say that the general and re cognised doctrine of the State now was, that education was free to every religious denomination. To be sure it was ; but allow it to be free to the Church, as well as the rest. —(Loud cheers.) Let not the Government interfere to take the education of the children of the Church out of the hands of the Church.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and cheers.) When giving judgment in a case in which refe rence was made to the ecclesiastical tribunals of the country, Chief Justice Holt laid down this doctrine :—" Without doubt, schoolmasters are in a great measure entrusted with the instruction of the youth of this country in principles, and therefore it is necessary that they should be of sound doctrine, and in order thereto, subject to the regulation of the ordinary ;" that is, " subject to the controul of the clergy, in so far as regarded schoolmasters connected with the Established Church." Farther than that, he (Lord Stanley) did not desire to go. ese hear d some Hon. Member opposite whisper " far enough." Farther, doubt less, it was than many Hon. Members opposite wished to go—(Loud Opposition cheering)—but this was the law of England, sanctioned by and interwoven intimately with the feelings and convictions of the people of this country. It was easy indeed for the Hon. Members epposite— doubtless the Noble Lord would say, " Oh, we admit that education should be combined with religious instruc tion." He (Lord Stanley) felt it was difficult to argue, in a popular assembly those points which he considered formed the justification of the Church for the resistance it had made to the Government scheme. But it was im possible not to ask that House—not to ask the country— whether there were not points of doctrine and of faith on which conscientiously different sects might be divided, but which were intimately connected with the Christian sys tem, and involved the Christian conduct, upon Christian motives, which the great body of the people possessed, which could not be blinked, which could not be compli mented away, to further , the education of those who dia.- . sented from the Churelf.=(Loud cheering.) It was impossible to fritter away such doctrines as the great scheme of redemption—justification by faith—the efficacy of infant baptism—the solemn mystery of the Holy Eucharist—( Hear, hear)—yet frittered away they would be, by the Goveinmcnt scheme of instructing together Churchmen, Baptists, Socinians, Jews, Catho lics, and all other religious persuasions, who differed upon so essential points.—( Hear, hear.) Believing these not to be abstract, speculative, unimportant, and such as might properly be given up for Charity's sake, but believing them to be the very foundation of the Christian system— (Cheers)—he could not consent to put them in the back ground —to set them aside for any fancied scheme of con ciliation. Now, as to the alleged claim on the part of the clergy to to the exclusive superintendence of education, he ( Lord Stanley) would ask the House and the country if the education scheme, which bad since 1834 met with the almost unanimous assent of Parliament, was a scheme for maintaining the exclusive authority of the Clergy 7 ( Hear, hear.) Did that scheme at all interfere with the right of the children of every religious persuasion to free. dom of religious instruction—aye, and instruction at the ar I tt m a t e e n ? t a — r y( grant for he a e r d . ) 11 c a t ß i n y n wasthat scheme divided b teix e n t p w ea e nn e sne n noa t lf w t o Phe Societies—the National, supposed to repre sent the feelings of the Church—and the British and Fo. reign, supposed to represent the opinions of the Protes tant Dissenters. In bringin g forward that scheme in 1834, Lord Althorp said, " This may seem to be a de parture from the fundamental doctrine, that the plan of Government grants for aiding objects of this nature, has a tendency to check private charity, and that in general such interference is mischievous rather than advantageous." He (Lord Stanley) concurred in this doctrine of Lord Althorp, as did his Right lion. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.__( Hear, hear, from the Right Hon. Gen tleman.) Lord Althorp went on to say, " There is one thing, however,in which private subscriptions are frequently deficient—in the first setting up of a school—and we have thought it not an improper expenditure of the public money. to grant 20,0001. for the current year, to assist in building schools"—to be distributed between those recommended by the National and the British Foreign School Society. Certain restrictions, however, were imposed—fcr instance, that the grants should not be made unless full security were given for the maintenance of the school when erected,and the subscription of one-half the required amount. Since that time it had every year become necessary to make lications for aid increase—and year was the com plaintmade ityofupthnne the 'l' f Treasury to meet. p ap the restrictions more stringent—so rapidly did the inabil He would ask if any ill effects had foll owed from this sys tem ? because if they were called upon to deviate from a demands the which were s ystem against which no voice had hitherto been raised in be th ar e d of order to adopt a scheme against which there was a general outcry, he had a right to suppose that there must be some thing in the existing scheme which rendered it inexpedient that it should be any longer pursued. The object of the scheme was to increase and extend education.—(Cheers.) The amount of education hitherto afforded had been lamentably deficient (Cheers from the Ministerial henches)—it continued to be so up to the present time.— ( Renewed cheering.) No one was more willing to admit this than Hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House— ( Cheers)—and if the Noble Lord did propose a plan of national education, founded on the doctrines of the Esta blished Oppos ition,) sitting Church, at the same time giving every allowable latitude to Dissenters for the education of their children. the Government would find that such a plan would receive support (i f , r o o e m d hHon. r s tion.) If the Noble Lord were to propose an increased I grant in support of that system which had for four years succeeded so well, all the opposition to such a proposal th, , m. would proceed not from that (the Opposition) side of the House, but from his own. There had been no com plaint whatever that the funds voted for the purposes of education had been unduly applied. He believed that the funds had been distributed in an equal ratio between the two Societies, and on the fairest of all principles. lie held in his hands returns stating the amount granted in aid of the 0 {realest i te to local funds during the years 1834, 1835, 1836, and 1837. The return for the year 1838 did not show this, because it had been moved for by the Hon. Member for Wa terford in a different form. In 1834, 20,4841. had been granted for the buil din g of sch ools in aid of lo ca l subscrip tions, am min ting to 48,1 0 2/ , ; in 18:2o, 19,000/. had b een granted in aid o f local s ubscriptions am oun ting to 836 59,6001.; in 1 - , the . Government gr an t s amou nted to 21,6691., an d the local subscriptions to 71,7321. Thus the House would see that every year the proportion of local contributions became larger, on account of the necessity the Treasury was un der of adopting more stringent regulations. In consequence of the great increase m the number of the applications for aid in 1837, the Government grant amounted to 17, 0 77/ , while th e local co ntributions were 54,8661. Thus - in four years this result was obtained, that a distri bution by the Treasury of 78,7981, had produced private of amo unt 165,149/. funds to the , and a sum Gf 0 33,947/. had been raised for the purposes of education ; in conse quence of which 153,600 children had been educated in England more than had been educated previously. He I would ask the House what grounds there could be for 1 abandoning a system which had succeeded so well from 1834 up to the present time. lie should be sorry to sup pose such a motive could actuate the minds of her Ma i jesty's Government ; but could it be possible that they withdrew their support from the exi.stin, system, because year after year an increase was exhibited in the propor tion of applications from the Established Church ? It I was desirable that all parties should have aid, but Ihe could not consider it a matter of indifferencet still less a matter of objection to the plan, that a larger portion of the population were brought up—not in dissent, but from ignorance and infidelity—in the doctrines of that Church,:which still, and notwithstanding all attempts for its overthrow, will continue to be the National Church of this kingdom.—( Cheers.) He was confident the Government would disclaim any such reason—he was confident they would pig forward some other plea, as a justification of this abandonment of the present plan. It might be urged that it was merely the building of schools that was needed, but the better instruction of the ill-qualified teachers in those schools was also a matter of primary importance. But not only the quantity of instruction was defective, but the qualifications of the teachers employed by the two Societies was far below what it ought to be.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) He rejoiced to hear that ground taken up, because nobody had been so anxious to in crease the qualifications of the masters—nobody had been so anxious for the establishment of normal schools— as the members of the Established Churches of England and of Scotland ; and consequently if there rested blame any si here on account of the delay which had taken place in this establishment it was not with those Societies that it tested, but with the Government, which had delayed granting them that assistance which they required. The first grant which had taken place for the establishment of model schools was voted in 1835 ; the vote had been taken almost without observation, and he was greatly surprised to find that in no case had any portion of this 10,0001. entrusted to the Government for the establishment of normal schools been applied. He had called for the cor respondence on this subject, and the result was that he found it stated that no part of this grant had been as yet expended.—(Hear, hear.) Now, whose fault was this, the fault of the National Society, of the Churches of Eng land or Scotland, or of her Majesty's Government ? The Glasgow Education Society, a Society in connection with the Church of Scotland, and which had taken an active and most efficient part in promoting education, and from the regulations of which the Noble Lord had borrowed almost all that was valuable in the details of the scheme which he had. recently abandoned, applied more than two years ago to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ascertain if a portion of the grant for the es tablishment of a normal school would be awarded to them ; the proposition was well received, but led to no further re sults at that time. A subsequent application for 1,000/. it was stated, would be complied with on certain conditions, but they delayed their application until they were enabled to lay before the Government all the details of their pro posed plan. They stated that a sum of 5001. would com plete the Glasgow normal school, the plans of which they laid before the Government; this was in March, 1838, and no answer had been returned to their application. With regard, therefore, to the non-erection of normal schools, the Glasgow Society at least were not chargeable with delay. He would now allude to a letter which had beeu addressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the purpose of drawing the attention of the National Society and of the British and Foreign School Society, to the plan of her Majesty's Government, and in which they were promised their cordial co-operation and support, in order to render it effective. The letter directed their attention first to the inspection of schools, and secondly to the erec tion of model schools by the National Society and by the British and Foreign School Society. Their attention was drawn to the steps proposed to be taken, and the principle of private contributions already adopted was to be strictly adhered to. This was in 1838. There was no delay on the part of the National Society, the letter was dated on the 7th July, 1838, and on the 21st July, 1838, in which they state their opinion that considerable advantage would be 'derived to the public from the proposed establishment of model schools, they received an answer expressing the desire of the Lords of the Treasury that the plans should be expressed according to the plan laid down in July 1835.—(The Noble Lord then read the correspondence,' from which it appeared that a correspondence between the Society and the Treasury had continued on the subject of model schools up to 1838, the Society experiencing great difficulty in procuring answers from the Government). In 1838 they had made a proposal to the Government, in which they entered into details respecting the establish ment of tho model schools—to this they received no answer. On the 4th of September in that year they laid before the Government a proposal for the establishment of a model school, and state the precise amount required. On the 20th September they applied for an answer, and, on the 4th October, they were informed that, with regard to the model schools, the Treasury required to be fur nished with some explanation on the subject referred to. The Society lest no time, they entered into details as to the site and the establishment ; and on the 13th of Feb.— ( Hear, bear, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer)—on the 13th of Feb. (and he contended that, considering the calculations it was necessary to make, no unnecessary delay had taken place) the Government was furnished with the plans and estimates; and what was the result? Why, on, the 18th of March, they were informed that the, Lords of the Treasury had forwarded their application for the consideration of the Lords of the Privy Council constituting the Committee on Education. It was rather singular that in this month of March, another application met with a similar fate. That Committee of the Privy Council to which the Government had referred these applications had no legal existence until the 10th of April following ; and these references to a Board not then in existence, were merely given for the purpose of avoiding giving a direct answer to those applications. What could induce the Government to refuse their consent to an application in March, which they themselves had expressly invited only the July pre viously ? These documents would show the House and the country that if blame attached to any parties for the delay which had taken place in the establishment of those model schools, that delay was attributable to the Go vernment. He would protest against any alteration being made in a plan which had already been proved to work so well ; and he protested still more strongly against the institution of a Board with powers so arbitrary, that it would be unsafe to entrust such powers in the'.hands of any Government. He would now turn his attention to the two plans which had been successively proposed by the Noble Lord, and ask the House if in the schemes themselves they saw any thing so excellent, so definite, so incapable of misconstruction, as to reconcile the people of this country to a scheme of education conducted under the aupices of such a tribunal? It was laid down in the first instance that the grants should be made upon the responsibility, and upon the re commendation of two Societies, whose system of education war known, which were composed in one instance of all the heads of the Church, and in the other of Dissenting Ministers, in both instances, therefore, comprising a large amount of clerical superintendence. The complaint was, that the funds were not sufficient,—that the demand for the improvement and cultivation of the masters was so ex tensive, that it was impossible to meet the demands. The next condition referred to the point of inspection. Now, with respect to that, he thought it would be difficult to contend against the principle that where public aid was administered the public had a right to be satisfied by their own inspection and examination that that public aid was properly applied. He would ad mit, to the fullest extent, that when the Lords of the Trea sury laid down the doctrine, that where they gave certain aid they had, in the first instance, to satisfy themselves that the money had been properly applied ; and they had a right to require the Society they entrusted with the dis tribution of the funds should report to them the continued conduct of the schools. Following up that principle with respect to the present measure, it was to be observed, that the Government plan did not confine the grant to the support of the schools alone, but it might be applied in giving gratuities to teachers. It might be very wrong, but he could not help having some suspicions of a measure that was brought forward one day, and aban doned the next.—( Cheers.) It was the duty of the House to see that there Were no suspicious loopholes in any mea sure to which it gave ,its sanction, which he must confess he thought there was in this. For what were the provi sions in this plan ? Why, the Committee of the Privy Council were to have the power to grant gratuities to teachers who should appear to deserve them—( Cheers) — and the inspectors were to have the power of visiting schools for the purpose of meddling with their in ternal regulation.—( Loud cheers.) Such being the case, did he do injustice to the Government plan when he stated it to be a most artful one to endeavour to meddle with private schools? He thought if there was any confidence in the plan of the Government, he should be enabled very shortly to displace that confidence, by ad verting to some few mere of its provisions. By those provisions the Council were not bound to adhere to the rules with respect to grants to the British and Foreign and National Schools Societies, but they were to be at liberty to judge of the objects of any grant. So that they were in fact to be the sole judges to whom any grant should be made. That might be all very well for those who placed implicit confidence in these four laymen ; but it would not do for the country at large. There was no great security for the steadiness of the plan, when, after granting 30,0001. for a certain plan, it was to be altered as the experience of the Committee of the Council should suggest. He would not now go into the arguments with respect to this scheme, which had raised such an c 4 estery in every part of the country against a measure which was against the true principles of inculcating education. He would leave it to others to point out how impos sible it would have been for any portion of the community who had a sincere reverence for instruction to acquiesce in such a scheme as was now brought forward, that religious instruction should be given to parties of all denominations by teachers, without consideration of their religious tenets. Be would ask the House only to conceive such a body as the Privy Council regulating the instruction of the people ?—( Hear, hear.) But that in struction was also to be carried on under a rector. Lord J. RUSSELL—You leave out about the rec tors.—( Laughter.) Lord STANLEY said if he made any omissions it was perfectly competent for the Noble Lord to put in an ex planatory document, which he had already professed to do. --(Cheers.) The documents, however, which he had put in were nct explanatory at all, and the abandonment of the scheme by the Noble Lord was no abandonment at all.—( Hear, hear.) According to the plan proposed, a portion of every day was to be devoted to reading the Scriptures in the schools under the supervision of the Rec tor. Parties professing all denomin a ti ons; mem b ers of the Church of England', Socinians, and Roman Catholics, were all to read their own version of the Scriptures under the superintendence of this Rector.--('. Hear, hear, hear.") Such a plan was: calculated to excite, and had continued to excite, the jealousy of the people of the country, when they were to be told that in these model schools there was equally read, under the direction of the same individual, the Roman Catholic version, the Au thorized version, and the Socinian version of the Scriptures. Now, who was this rector to be ? Was he to be a man of all religions or of no religion at all ?—( Hear.) There was no security for the religious creed of the rector, and the fact was that the institution of the rector and his gene ral direction of the studies was borrowed from the Glasgow normal schools—(Cheers)—in which the duty of the rec tor was plain and simple, because the whole establishment was carried on under the direction of the Church of Scot land, of which the rector was a member. The Noble Lord had said, in answer to the various petitions against this mon serous scheme, that t hey had been got up against the old scheme which had been given up, and a new one substituted. He believed there was no person who had presented petitions who had not stated that their objection was to th• principle, and that the new scheme was as objec tionable as the old ; he thought it more so, as it was mere ambiguous and far more insidious.--( Hear, hear.) The objections taken by the petitioners were not against trifling matters, but the pervading spirit and principle that ac tuated her Majesty's Government in bringing forward the scheme of the 11th of April. The Noble Lord said that his scheme was abandoned ; he (Lord Stanley) would fearlessly assert that it was not. It was true that it was convenient to abandon the defence of it— that it was convenient to bow to the storm, but it was also convenient to retain that degree of elasticity that when the storm was over you might rise again.-- ( Cheers.) Such was the situation of her Majesty's Mi nisters.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord opposite might assert that the plan was abandoned, but he would ask did it not still remains as part of that plan that the funds were not to be applied solely for the purposes of the two Societies to which he had adverted, but the Loi ds of the Privy Council were to judge where grants should be made and where not. If such a scheme was assented to by that House, it would place the whole system of education in the country under four Privy Councillors, together with their Inspector. With regard to the normal schools, the outcry in the country had been so great against them, that the Government felt it would be impossible to establish them, and then came the new scheme; and who could doubt, looking at that scheme, that though to appearance the normal school system was abandoned, it was that to which the Committee of the Privy Council would cling ?—(Hear, hear.) The truth was, that this pretended abandonment had been made for the purpose of enabling parties to do that, when Parlia ment was not sitting, which it would not allow when it was.—( Hear, hear.) He belt that be had already tres pa.sed greatly upon the time of the House, and had but indifferently discharged the great task he had undertaken. He felt confident in the good feeling of the majority of the people of the country ; he felt confident that the majority of the religious public, of all denominations, had already condemned the present scheme, and that they would con tinue to condemn it, and he was not without hope that yielding to the sense of the public, the majority of that House would not that night be foune to assent to so unjust and uncalled for a scheme—(Hear, hear)—a scheme which took from Parliament that control which it ought to nave over the education of the people, and gave it to an irresponsible council.—(Hear, hear.) If the House did not repudiate, as he trusted they would, a scheme so fraught with danger, they would be aiding the establish ment of a system of education which would unsettle the minds of the youthful population of the country, and would induce a general belief that it was the opinion of the Le gislature that equal authority was due to all versions of the Scripture, and that it was a matter of indifference in what creed the people were brought up.—( Hear, hear.) Such a belief was greatly to be deprecated ; for when once conflicting opinions were entertained upon points of faith, the foundation of all faith would be gradually shaken, and as had been stated in many of the petitions in strong terms, would lead to general scepticism, and from general scep ticism the step was short to national infidelity.—( Great cheering.) Lord M 0 RPETH had at one time been almost inclined to flatter himself that all essential differences between himself and the Noble Lord who had just sat down might have been confined to Irish ground—( Hear, hear)—and he might also have indulged in the expectation that if there was a topic on which, whether on English or Irish ground, he could flatter himself with the expectation that he might have the happiness of concurring with the Noble Lord, it would be the subject of general education.—(Cheers.) However the speech to which he had just listened had dis solved both these pleasing expectations he had formed, and had convinced him that the speech of the Noble Lord, and the amendment he had moved, went to this point—to se parate by a regular and specific vote of the house the Ex. ecutive Government of the country—the responsible Minis ters of the Crown from all care, controul, and superinten dence over the general education of the people.—(Cheers. ) Now that at once decided him (Lord M.) on the vote which he should be called upon to give. For, so far from coinciding with the scope and tendency of the Noble Lord's amendment, he owned it was his wish that that supe rintendence should he carried much further, and exercised far more largely and fully than it could be by any result of the vote which his Noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department in tended to submit to the House.—( Hear.) There were, he admitted, many reasons, perhaps sufficiently strong in point of practical effect, whatever might be their absolute force and truth, against pressing their interference further, or carrying out to a greater extent the system of general education. These reasons were to be found in the diffe rence of opinion prevailing in that House and the country, and the great variety of religious denominations that pre vailed in the nation ; most of the persons professing which, being perhaps mere !prone to maintain what they thought to be right in their own opinions and practice (in which, perhaps, they were quite right) than to allow of differences of opinions in others, and in which he humbly conceived they were not equally well advised. But, under the pressure of these circumstances, he thought bis Noble Friend had exercised a sound discretion in forbearing to press further the scheme he had originally proposed. Not that he (Lord Morpeth) had any misgivings as to the na ture and tendency of that scheme, as he thought would be made manifest if its merits ever came to be fairly submit ted and argued ; but he thought it was becoming in his Noble Friend not to press forward a proposition on points of the highest importance as well as of the greatest deli cacy, in the teeth of objections that, however generated and kept alive, did certainly appear to proceed from the most opposite quarters, and from those who differed in all essential particulars.--( Hear, hear.) He thought, there fore, his Noble Friend was right, and whether it gave any triumph to the Hon. Gentlemen opposite or not, he did not feel himself called upon to enter upon the merits of the original scheme. He knew too well his own deficiency in comparison with the gladiatorial talents of the Noble Lord opposite to risk encountering him in a field where no laurels were to be gained. But when the No'sle Lord talked of a sham and nominal abandonment, and when he recollected that the Noble Lord had been in his speech most liberal in the use of not the most graceful epithets and imputations against his (Lord Morpeth's) Noble and Right Hon. 14 riends, he checked himself by remembering that the Noble Lord had had such intimate knowledge and long acquaintance with these Noble Lords and Right Hon. Gentlemen, that he had no right to quarrel with his ex pressions.—( Hear, and cheering.) What, then, was the main point which the Noble Lord's amendment and speech brought them to? That it was not fitting that the responsible Ministry of the country should bear any part, however slight or curtailed—however, in his ( Lord M.'s) view, inadequate in superintending and guiding the general education of the country. The Noble Lord laid great stress on the proposed Committee of the Privy Council, and upon the irresponsible power they would possess, unauthorised by Parliament. Now, if any one character attached to the professed Board, it was that it, was eminently responsible—that the Ministers who were liable to go out of office were far more responsible than any permanent Board that might be found, and which would act more independently than the Board established by the Noble Lord himself in the sister country.—( Hear, hear.) Why the very last events that occurred with re ference to the present question, showed how entirely the proceedings of the Committee of the Privy Council must be governed by the feeling of Parliament and of the coun try. For it was nothing else than the feeling expressed by the country and Parliament (which he admitted was hostile) which bad induced the Board to withdraw its ori ginal proposition and introduce in its st'ad another scheme, better qualified to satisfy the wishes of the coun try. The Noble Lord said that all the education of the country would depend upon the vote of one House of Parliament, Under what other Administration of the funds destined for education had they been living ? ( Hear, hear, hear.) The proposed vote of 30,000/. differed in no one respect or particular from the 20,0001. they bad been voting for tho last four years.—( Cheers.) They had been founded on votes brought forward annually, and the other House of Parlia ment had had nothing whatever to do with them.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord complained and expressed his re pugnance to placing such power under the controul of a Treasury minute, confirmed by Act of Parliament; but it was merely by a Treasury minute, confirmed by Act of Parliament, that all sums granted for the last four years bad been voted.--( Hear, hear.) Knowing the paramount importance of national education, be should be glad to see a permanent Board established in the country. But he wished to know where were the materials to be found ? He would ask the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite to point out the constitution upon which they pro posed to form such a Board. He believed his Noble Friend had attempted to form such a Board by uniting the National and the British and Foreign School Societies. The National Society insisted on the Catechism being read in the schools, whereas the British and Foreign School Society would not sanction that principle. He could well understand why the Noble Lord had rivetted the attention of the House to the scheme which was not before them.—( Hear, hear.) What were the objects of the vote which it was their hope to obtain from Perlis liament ? They had beenprecluded by the state of feeling in the country from establishing a general central training school for the masters, or, according to the Noble Lord's phrase, a normal school, conducted on the best principles which modern improvements and experience could supply, and admitting without distinction every master of a school for which there might be a demand throughout the coon try.—( Hear, hear, hear.) But that intention—which he still maintained would have been the most proper and suitable for adoption in any system of national education—that intention had been averted, and they now proposed to grant one-third of the original amount for training schools for the two great educational Societies, the National School and the British and Foreign School Society, both of which he held in great honour, the one as possessing the confidence of the great body of Churchmen, and the other that of the great proportion of the Dissenting body as well as many Churchmen; he re joiced it was proposed to make a fair division of the grant, nod he for one was far from wishing to make any invidious distinction.—( Cheers.) Notwithstanding the usual clear ness of the Noble Lord's addresses to the House he ( Lord Morpeth) had been a little at a loss to discover the real footing on which he wished to have public aid for these purposes rest.—( Hear, hear.) No one was more ready to admit the truth of what the Noble Lord had stated rela- tive to education not being a thing apart from religion; but when the Noble Lord proceeded to quote from old French statutes, and Lord Chief Justice Holt, and other authorities, carrying them back to the feudal times, he wished to ascertain clearly from the Noble Lord whether their religious liberty, in matters of education, was to be regulated upon the model of those times.—( Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord said be would not take the education of the children of the Church out of the hands of the Church. Who wanted it—who wished it?__( Hear, ,hear. and cheers, ) While, however, be admitted that national education was not a thing apart from religion, he would demur to the proposition that it was a thing not apart from the Church. _(Hear.) The Noble Lord was correct iu stating that in the proposition now brought forward they departed in two essential particulars from previous practice. One was EVENING EDITION 1 that it should not be matter of necessity that the amount of contributions from the State should not strictly follow the amount of private subscriptions. The other was that aid might be granted to schools not in connection with either of these two Societies. With regard to the first point he found it recommended, in the Report of the Committee on the education of the poorer classes—they recommended that the amount of assistance should be regulated and m o _ ' dified by cases of poverty and distress, and none of his col leagues were inclined to depart from the spirit of that recommendation.—( Loud cheers.) All they contended for in the proposed modification vas that there should be no exclusion from a participation in . . the bounty of the State, of districts, which being most populous and most destitute, and having no provision made for education, was still excluded, by their poverty, and the absence of any wealthy resident proprietors, from all participation in the funds bestowed upon more opulent neighbourhoods where they were less needed.—(Cheers.) With respect to the other point of extending aid to schools not in connection with these Societies, he would state that while the Committee of the Privy Council thought it their primary duty to extend the far greater portion of the as sistance to be given to the schools supported by the more numerous class of their fellow -countrymen, namely the Churcirmen and Dissenters, yet they thought it just, fair, e n r e a y n i fm e r from d t y h e n r n a i o classu o f o f r p g e r e s n n e n r s a l w ie n u n r p h o e s l e p s e , d t that to and proper, w h en app li cat i on was ma d e f or .the public s n i ts c a o n n Y s t ictourt'e that nation should not be excluded irrevocably and formally from all these benefits, it being al way; understood that, with regard to numbers, importance, and destitution, they made out a fair and rea sonable claim. The main objection to the original scheme was, that the proposed union would be merely a wretched compromise : whether that objection was well or ill-founded it no longer existed. Now, however, th a t t h ey had no system limited education, the Noble Lord shifted his ground with great facility, and objected to public aid being extended to a certain class on the grouted of that education being separate and distinct. What, then, was it the Noble meant ?—( Hear, bear.) What was the principle on which he meant to:proceed ?—( Cheers.) Was he prepared to say that it was right, proper, and just to exclude from the be nefits and blessings of education certain proscribed classes ? ( Hear.) He had his own opinion of many of the Roman Catholic doctrines—he gad his own opinion with respect to the Unitarian doctrines, and he thought that in the present state of feeling of the country, Protestants and Unitarians were entitled to an infinitely larger proportion of the public funds ; but while the State employed Catholic sinews and fingered Unitarian gold, he would not lay it down as an incontrovertible axiom that the State should refuse any participation in its funds to those who might be immured at once both in physical misery and mental and intellectual' blindness.—( Loud cheers.) Great objection had been made to the right of inspection, and the power of adopting successive improvements, which the Com mittee might find themselves called upon to recommend. Now the spirit of the Report was very unfairly repre sented, if it was supposed or:insinuated that there was any attempt to depart from the original design of the schools. What were the words of the Report ? 1r recognized the right of inspection, in order to establish and maintain uni formity of discipline in the schools. And then with respect to improvements, power was given to introduce them from time to time. It was clear that none of these improve ments could be inconsistent with the original designs of the schools ; but he thought it would be going too tar to say, that if it should appear by examination and inquiry that the schools were conducted on a slovenly system, there should be no room for the introduction of such improvements and such an amended system as might be deemed necessary.— ( Hear, (hear.) For these reasons he, thought it right that the system of inspection should be maintained. The Noble Lord had admitted that in a qualified manner these must be some inspection. Now he ( Lord Morpeth) could not think that inspection could be carried on satisfac torily by the exertions of any private Society.—( Hear, hear.) Even the schools of the two Societies which had been so frequently named showed in some things a want of attention. In his opinion the power of inspection ought to be vested in the State, in order that the schools should not be allowed to degenerate from the plans of the founders. .—(Hear, bear, hear.) The responsible Ministers of the Crown, the servants of the people, to whom all complaints were naturally made, ought to be enabled to be in a state of readiness to give an explanation whenever called upon to do so.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord threw out some objections to the persons composieg the Com mittee of the Privy Council—they might be persons in whom the Noble Lord had no confidence —that was a matter entirely for the consideration of the Noble Lord; of course he could not expect that he ( Lord M.) could join him in that sentiment. The Noble Lord thought it would be proper that the Board should be composed of ecclesiastics; he could net for a moment join in that opinion, for be had no doubt it would at once increase the strife and religious warfare which unhappily existed at present.—( Cheers.) For instance, many persons might wish to see the Bishop of London, in whom the Church justly took so much pride, at the Board; then, to balance that, the Dissenters might ask that Dr. Pye Smith, or any other of the Learned men belonging to their sect, should be a Member of the Board, and he would not guarantee the House, after the debate of last night, that there might not be a motion to add the name of some eminent Bishop of the Roman Catholic Church.--( Hear.) Let the pastors of every denomination tender such suggestions and advice as they think best calculated to carry out the benevolent ends which all had in view without creating any feeling of unfairness or exclusiveness, which most undoubtedly would arise if they were made the dispensers of the bounty of Parliament. Ile confessed that if Hon. Gentlemen opposite thought they could propose a scheme that would conciliate conflicting objections, he would be most happy to hear it propounded ; but till that were done, he would be most glad to take even the little that was offered as an instalment, so that it in no manner infringed upon the great principles of Civil and Religious Liberty.—( Cheers. ) He was perfectly indifferent to the abuse which had been heaped upon the Government for their plans of education ; indeed he was indifferent to the abuse which had been heaped upon them for even the present modified plan—all he wanted was to have more education—( Loud cheers)_ he wanted to have Churchmen, to have Dissenters, better educated—he wanted to better educate, not only orthodox, but also hetorodox—he wanted to have the mass of the people better educated, and by more efficient teachers.--( Loud cheers.) He would say that if the faith which he held to be true was destined to fall, he would rather that it should fall before enlightened opponents than be prostrated before undiscerning and brutal ignorance.—(Cheers.) All parties had hitherto been greatly deficient upon the head of education. Ile did not wish to be censorious as to what was past. The Church and the State, as well as the Dissenters, had been deficient. He was pleased, however, to think that there was now a change —that now there was a prospect of better days before them. n o was glad to see the reviving efforts of all parties, and he would most willingly and most gladly lend all his humble aid to that humble beginning ; and he would at all times willingly lend himself to the 'great cause of an extended scheme of national education.—(The Noble Lord sat down amidst loud cheering.) Lord A SHL E Y.—lf he bad not before entertained any misgivings that the plan or intentions of the Government were not altered, his mind would have been filled with them after the speech of the Noble Lord who had just sat down. 'That Noble Lord, a Member of the Government, wanted to have the powers of the Committee greatly extended; and when he took credit to the Noble Secretary for the Home Department for giving up the first plan of edu cation, be ( Lord Ashley) must say that he dif fered from him, because they both tended to the same end, and if not controlled by a vote of that House, they must unquestionably work the same results. The same powers were continued to the Committee —not one of them was given up, and there was nothing to pre vent them from setting up al normal or model school the moment the Houses of Legislature were closed. They were clearly told by the Noble Lord (Morpeth) that the scheme was not abandoned—merely postponed for further consideration—they were told distinctly by a Minister of the Crown, that they had not departed from the first plan. That view of the matter was taken by all classes—by the Wesleyans, as was shown by the resolutions of their Committee of Conference, and it was held equally by one who was an acute writer, but no Tory—it was held by the editor of the leading supporting journal of the Ministry—the Morning Chronicle.—( Cheers end laughter.) It might be convenient to laugh at that state ment, but that opinion was held not only by Churchmen, but by Wesleyans—not only by Tories, but by the Morning Chronicle and the great majority of the people of this country. It was a most important question, as it in. volved the whole tone of the whole youth of the country ; by consequence, it involved the welfare both temporal and spiritual, of millions of the people. The proposed scheme was not unconstitutional, still it was decidedly sub versive of the Constitution.—( Hear, hear.) Her Ma jesty could constitutionally call upon any of her Privy Cot:licit for advice, most undoubtedly. She might also send twenty thousand Peers up to the House of Lords —constitutionally she had the power to do so, but still it must be subversive of the Constitution : the present scheme was subversive of the Constitution of Church and of the revealed relig ion. Nothin g would induce him f men of whatever party, or any party , to invest any body o , Noble Lord given any reason with the proposed powe rs ; nor had the for introducing so novel a plan as making so important a subject the subject of only one vote of the House. Surely it should have been introduced in the shape of a Bill, so that it might be considered on eac h stage, and have had the consideration of the two bra nches of the legislature—espec2ally of the House of Lords, where the Bishops were, who were peculiarly responsible upon such a subject—they ought to be asked for their opinion, to know how far they thought the plan would be for the benefit of the people. The .Noble Lord had shown no public ground for introducing such a precedent for mere party purposes—it was one which might be bear.' carried much further, and to a danf.Terouo extent.— ( s H h a precedent By adopted this scheme, they would and in other times, which, under other Governments, might ultimately prove fatal to the Constitution under which we at present lived.—(Hear, how.) In that view, he considered it to be hostile to the to th e Church. By .Constitution. He likewise considered it to be hostile this measure the Church would be - p r ivod of the super intendence of all those schools that de should accept a grant, the The funds of the Stat e were to be employed against • is the with Church. If they refu sed to assist the Church State funds, at least they ought not to employ the State funds to assail her. The Church thus would ei t h er h ave d t from the supermten ence of her altoschools by to depar •e a grant, or else forego the grant gether and accepting thus be placed in this conditon—that, being the recognised Church of the State, she was the only Church precluded from a share in the national grant. The Bench of Bishops were virtually set aside by this Order in Council. If the Church of England accepted a grant, her schools would have to submit to inspection ; and if the terms of inspec tion were such as she could not accede to, that would be an injustice towards her. The terms of inspectioni werp to be in conformity with the Order in Council, with such improvements as might from time to time be suggested to the the Committee. It was stated by the Noble Lord, k s hire, i that the m. Member for the \Vest Riding of Yorkshire, bwacter, or such as provernent would not be of a violent c ■ ''~~ Y{Y:,,:sl