The Sun. — London, England, 1844-05-11 00:00:00

..T.11.7t. .-4. - (J:si/A;0:-N-Ji Ow4i-.-T-..p.A T ti R.D.AO..tf or enterprise of the mill-owners and master_manufac turers was in the least impair( d by the change, but on the contrary the number of mills had increased from 344 in 1819 to more than a thousand in 1826. It should be also recoliected that the Ten Hours' Bill was sup ported by a great number of ma=ter manufacturers both in that House and out of it.—(Hear. hear.) In Parlitt-' • ment might' be not comment upon the lion. Members for 01,iharn, tor Ashton, for Blackburn, and for Salford, and out. of the House there were some. of the most ex , tensive - tuanufaeturers in England avowed supporters of. the Bill. (The Noble Lord then quoted the names of several eminent master manufacturers supporters of the Ten Hours' Bill. amongst whom he relied with especial force on the support of Messrs. Kenworthy and Har greave, as t eing, from the ext. nt of their trade, business, and their long and practical exp rience, eminently well qualified to form a judgment.) He did not think a ' great deal of reliance could be placed upon the calculations of Mr Senior; many of them he could . prove to be inaccurate. A letter had some time since appeared in the Bolton Free Press, from a Mr. Theme: (a- we understood), which disproved many of Mr. Senior's tatements. The writer was un- doubted!v a man of gr. at experience and information — he stated that the last hour in the twelve hours of labour in fiictories, IA as, from the exhaustion of the operatives ; p-,rticulary as reg,:rd, d children, the most unproductive in quantity, and the most unsatisfactory in quality of the whole t,‘ , lye. The twelfth hour he said produced more spoiled work than any other two hours in the day, and any man conversant with the business, could tell upon the cloth that portion of its material that was manufac tured during the last hour of labour.—(Hear, hear.) That restriction in the hours of labour was injurious to the operative, or to the trade generally, was contradicted by the whole history of the cotton trade. Was it pos sible—was it prohable—that British industry, which had reached such a height of excellence—that the energy and enterprise of the British people, which was so re nowed—that all that perseverance and inderati-- gability which belonged to them were so dimi nished that the subtraction of two hours from the twelve could be productive of the disastrous results anti cipated by some Hon. and Right Hon. Members. It could not be denies that, irrespectively of the detriment which the proposed alteration was said to inflict upon trade, it would be in other respects most beneficial. There was not the slightest doubt but that the social, moral, and physical conditien of the people would be thereby greatly benefited.—(Hear, hear.) It was for Ministers to solve whether it was preferable for the manufacturirg classes of England to have high wages, or to increase their domestic comforts, to give them an opportunity of acquiring moral and literary information, and to benefit their health. Was it not desirable that the humble female should be trained to the performance of those domestic duties which were so necessary in. after life to make her home and family comfortable?— (Hear, hear.) Had they not had doctors and clergy men of all p-Tsuasions attesting the necessity of such a change, and entreating the Legislature to adopt it? But, notwithstanding all these things, the Minister not only refused to accept of the remedy proposed, but to pro pose one himself.—(Hear.) The House was placed in a curious po.ition. It was summoned to rescind the re solution to which it had solemnly and deliberately agreed —not because any new facts had been furnished— (Hear, hear)—not bi , cause any additional arguments bad been adduced in favour of the present system—but simply because the Minister had declared his hostility to it.—(Loud cries of ‘‘ Hear, hear.") In fact they were called upon tosurrender their votes and their opinions, in order to save the Government.—(Hear, bear.) He did not think the Minister had any right to expose his friends to such an alternative, that they must either re tract their formerly declared sentiments, or give up the Government.- It would give him very great pain to vote against the Government, but he would not shrink; for a moment, from avowing and maintaining those views which he had formerly expressed. It had given him great pain to hear an Hon. Friend of his, who had, on a former occasion voted for the ten hours' clause, say he would vote for the Government proposition. Was it come to this, that great questions were no longer to be tried upon their merits, but regulated by the will and fancy of the Government? He felt bound to say that the conduct of Ministers was rather arbitrary— he considered that a kind of despotism had br -eised which might_ prove detrimental reconimended that several harbours of refuge should be 1341§sible that it could ceMe on that evening he wishe'l constructed in being]. by which m aes i xleasive ems to suggest that it be ref , rred to a Committee up stairs. Pleyment a ould be giver toil l s pe•ede. At th.. time - • Sir - J. GEM" AM said he' would peStpone - the Bill till of the Union the sum of 500•0001. was l placed in the Monday, ard.he would then state the course to be taken handa of a Committee; for the purpose of promoting i til, t lid reepectin2; it.' • . . . navigation. . Two canals were coestructe.l with thie trio- ' ' IRISH REGISTRATION BILL. ney, (Inc of whi c h becam e insolent shortly after its Mr. SHELL -asked the Right 11. et. the Secretary of !Neste-action, and in the other. the :value of :he steel: fs I State for the Berne Deetarteneet whether 14e infenele , l to from 110 to 5. The Commission - re •or • Feb is - Wei ks bring • n the Irish Registratien Bill, or *nether it was in lreland bad. at • present ei, thoiley -in hued to carry abandoned er not ? - f on the prefects of imrotement which had been set on Sir J. GRAHAM said the Bill was not abandoned, doable The harbour o Kiegstoe naa hil.h was a very va-• and that he would move its second reading on ail early one, was commeeced thirty years ago, not yet, tt . !ll it was day,' bufthat the alrlY was net yet fixed.—(Lauelner.) ie fini-hed.. The oe.st ef this valuable vierk - - . FACTORIES BILL. • - was 700,000/, t: ':a et pro ent tee ( mendeei , ners The Order of the Day for the third reading of this forca. rryine..! it ' on it it but -about 8,0001. - in their Bill was than a ad. hands. Eale iyoure ha, been male to imp.: tve the ea- Mr. M. Flll LIPS et --creed a pstitien from Staley vigati" of tie Shannon, bet that ,-iver wes foultd.to h- br dge (es we utelerst s: ) a, nits t a Ten Hems Bill; :tery difficult i f iaprevement. All the projects which and otethe aiotior ot the Hen. Member the petition was he had mentioned heti heel set on fee for the purpese - rea.i at length by the clerk at the table. I.:e4ploying th e l a b ee te ng p eo ple of Ireland, asd et at Lord HOW ICK presented a petition from the in tn • preeent d a y th ere a , re more beggars in Ilia . ; coun- habitants of Dewsbury, preying that ten hours be the try than th e r e . , eer Ne : re ; end he thong - lit thtit sense tiriat of labour on fi- e days .11.• the week, and eight hours §tell' might - to be tekere t• - i-sect Lain tl:0 "calUe of thiS,• the other. lie di4l not inove that t! - ..e p aeien be read and if poss•bl e ti, reteedy the rail. All that the n(ob)le at •the .iiilee.- (Laughter.) Jr f eland wanted ess ettieleymeet, _tie hesieved ,that •• Mr. DUN( 11\1BE presented a petition, signed by the Iv , ant of employment erose in a greact IneraSUre t"r-una 6,00 inhabitants of the boroueh of St, ekport, in fav urof ehsenteeiste. 'Fliere were - ample Deans inelreland of a-'l'en fleets' Bill. - • • - ghttig the 1 (-eerie ettileoyment. rlhet . em; lot ment (amid On the questien that the Bill be' ead a third time, be •und be an • ere • . .-r stn f drain ''''' ' ''f the b es ,- ' Lord ASHLEY- rose, - Ile s • id, aft: r the three dis _ , . 0 . ; . n. iv, se s. f , ac i . 4, 5 , . . . } " I l: h amid arrirOy repay th'• "athlY and the labour. tinet deeleratiens that had bee a made by the House,, he ~, bad havowa he'd w ee h bad origiaally eel.? at a penny need not males :ITV , ferther et ,•• . pt,,by iirgument. or per ';lticre r a ea se ,p ou n ( 1 eteeling per year. F l 4 trusted suasien;• to ..tais , •ee 1-4. . •i. es. ene us& rstanding of !,.p . Imreisl , ipe would agree to this motion. the II use e -eel,- . :r eras rilstiect declaratiens, de. • ' l-s !* peke ttf _WELLINGTON, in opp6sing the mo_ • eided aetualie in three esses, that the period of labour tl`)ll:rieeir-elese their% L or d s hip s th a t the Connnissiom should nett amount to tweer, hours, and in two eases ::: 1 ‘ " '' '' al present .sitting, at whose head was. his virtually that the period of labour should not •exceed ten 'l•-,:. Friene (the Earl of Delon), had taken this very hours. Oil those decisions ihe world, at large expect , d s i l :" et In - 0 1; eie e;:ei id.2ration. .The Neble Lord evi that a middle term wou'd have been taken, but her Ma (.l, 'lb' wi bed 'lit a sum of moitees should be granted .iesty'stbletisters had refused to consent to that term. their 1.-" , rPese-of•improving the soil of Ireland. rut , They had ievited a reeival of the debate, by calling on a tquir.- r. '''' I ordships would remember that to do this would . the •Ilouse to'reverse those decisions, and therefore they. bete eetefive and ten millions sterling. ees s ,:e„ly , who stood by the whole• of those decisions, and who °I. eh a- 906,0001. had been advanced for the improve - - protested against this - novel and somewhat questionable 1, •:e;l! ef s re e tha a : „ m e . f or the year as- much as 6,0001. course , were no: to be char g ed with wearying the atten hi'.-tbbeeri 'we d r oe thi s purpose. He wettld remind the ! ton of the Reuse, or wasting its valuable t i m e, if they ni l et Leal .Opposite that very extensive works were ; did endeavour to urge every argument and move every • i ii e ''' •en at present in Ireland. 'There was a railwey ; consideratien that could countervail this prodigious exer oiler!'" er coestruction from Deblin to Cashel. and cis ref Ministerial influence and official authority. With p arii r[n neashel to Cork. Two years ago a Bill'passed respect to the moral and physical condition ` and the providing for the proper drainage of Irelaed, of the people, one way or other, the minds of all were i n .e Commission appoint. d under that Bill was still made up; it was . sten adtnitted by many of their antagonists bring existence. Money had been granted, and was still that if a reduction if the hours of labourer:mild be effected pro granted, for this purpose, and he thought this aas without injury to the workman or the master ntanufac of Irtelhat Parliament was not inattentive ti the wants curer, it would be desirable to effect it. But they said a danger would arise to the workmen's interests, and he, an d: Under these circumstances he did not think Lwould beeho proposed the plan was actually charged with , • well to - agree to the motion of the Noble ore. _ being ihuman than those alto resisted it. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE was glad to hear But he wished to reject altogether the use of such epi. that a sum of. money had been voted fl- ihe improve- theta, and he would not in any way retort the impeta. meat of Ireland. He' was, however, surpri-ed to hear Lion cast open him of malignity and of cant.—(Hear.) that the Landlord and Tenant Commission had . been In the allele of those debates there was but one thing that• he regretted ; he land to inquire into the means of improving Ire-did - mist deeply regret 'end He had never heard this before. With respect to that be should have been charged with calumniating the means of improving the whole body of mater—(Hear,improvingthat country, he knew that there He totally disclaimed that charge.--(Hear, hear.) He were works which might be commenced in Ireland , the' construction of which would not cost. the public a single should- be ashamed of himself if' he presumed, either. shilling, inasmuch as. the works, when completed, would -there or elsewhere, to use such language of a class return at least six per cent. on the capital expend ( d. of men who could boast of as many munificent - The Earl of.DEVON said, that although he cou'd not and worthy individuals as could -• be pre . tuPleort the motion,•yet he was not sorry that the subject sented b y any class which ' had ever supported ad. been brought forward, for he thought it was Cr adorned the institutions of this country.—(Cheers.) O ne that could not be toe often brought under their con- Neither, because he addressed himself to a particular sideretion. Ile admitted that emel4yment was greatly evil was he, to be considered as an enemy to the fan ... needed- by the people of Ireland, but he did not think tory system. He firmly believed--for he had labori ; thet such_ a Committee as that which had been moved ousl y examined man y of the mills—that if they re .for could remedy the evil colained of. He thought it moved some of .the imperfections of factories they Would be better for their Lordships to wait until the would become a blessing—if net absolutely, certainly port Of the Landlord arid Tenant Commission was be- and relativel y —to the labouring classes.—(Hear, hear.) fore Parliam en t, a s he had no doubt.that many sugges- Now, when he first introduced this question, he did not tons would appear therein, which their Lordships would touch upon the commercial article, because he did not' think worthy of being acted upon. consider it necessary in the view which - he took of The Marquis of NORMANBY rose: to suggest that the question, nor did he consider it necessary now. as there had been some misunderstandingwith respect to But he owed it to those whose interests this question, whether it would not be better for the be represented, to show that he had not left any p art of Noble Lord to withdraw the motion which he had made, the question unconsidered; that he had not rushed, like ' Particularly as the ;report of the Noble Lord opposite .an enthusiast, into this career, not caring what conse (DeVon) fromehe Landlord and Tenant Commission had quences might ensue from the attainment of ibis net be. -II 'Una - these circum- end. He said at that time, what he now said, .. _ _ _ .!en knack to the ouse. ier stan ces he did not think that this was the proper time to press the motion. Lord CLONCURRY said that after what had fallen from his Noble Friend, be would withdraw his motion. The House then adjourned at a Quarter past Eight. -tat which was morally wrong could not be politically ,een exert right ; he had then, and he had still, the deepest to constitutional principles, and which would prove more conviction that that which was morally right could not fatal to the liberty and independence of that House than be politically wrong. All that he had read, all the con- any other proceedings which bad ever taken place.— sideration which he had been able to give to the subject, (Hear, hear.) • It was possible, nay he feared he might all the intercourse which he bail had with persons who, say it was probable, that Ministers would carry the day, from their practical exteri• nee, were the best able but how long would that victory last?—(Hear, hear.) It HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 10. to instruct him, confirmed him in this conclu- they wished their victory to be lasting they must put •,,Tha SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four sion. And now he must ent r eat of the House into operation those sentiments which were founded °.O lock. e ith very much respect, and with very much earnestness, upon h u manit y and j ustice. They could not extinguish ' The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir W. Follett) took th e that the y would be good enough to give him t heir a tt e n- the feeling of sympathy which was so universally pre oaths and his seat for Exeter. tion while he went through a statement which was at all valent for these suffering creatures. A victory opposed COMMISSION. time , dry, and which would he feared be much drier when to these feeling would be inglorious and short-lived—it _ The Usher of the Black Hod appeared at the bar, and coming from him, and which was moreeversomewhattrite. might answer present purposes, but would entail tort The th e House to the House of Peers, to hear her Now, after much inquiry, he could discover no more moil, anxiety, and woe upon their successors. But it majesty's c om mi ss ion read for giving the Royal Assent than four leading arguments against this measure, and would net rest here ; those feelings which operated so to certain Bills (tor which see Lords' r eport).- those arguments were comprised in the petition from powerfully would heighten and extend, they would em- NEW WRIT FOR SOUTH LANCASHIRE.' 'Manchester. v. hich had been laid onthe table of the House. bitter the present and the prospect of the future. But Lord F. EGERTON; i n moving for a new writ for Those four arguments were that the passing of the Ten he did not despair, he still hoped to see a better under ''cuth Lancashire, in room of Mr. Wilbraham, deceased, Hours' Bill would cause a reduction of produce—that standing established between the master and the said he regretted his inability to do adtquate justice to .there would be in the same proportion a reduction in servant, between the labourer and the employer ;h e tie merits of that lamented and respected 'gentleman. the value of the fixed capital employed in trade ; that thought he could perceive a growing desire among the' f ew, men had more justly e arned the good will and kindly there would be a great diminution of wages to wealthy to ameliorate thecondition of the poor, antfa de feelings "of all parties, mid he was sure he would be the great injury of the workmen ; and lastly, that termination to promote the public welfareby improvingthe _,.borne o u t i n do s assert i on by H o n. G e ntlemen oppo- there would be a rise in prices, and consequent danger condition of the bumbler classes. He had been subjected tt.,te•—(Loud cries of "Hear hear," from the Liberal from foreign competition. Now, upon these four to much obloquy, and even calumny, but he would still ..ftembers.) - points the commercial argement tested. With re- persevere unremittingly and unceasingly, and he felt ~..*Mr. MARK: PHILIPS fully concurred in what bad spect to the first, he would observe that hitherto convinced that the object for which he was contending eauen fr om the Noble Lord who had just sat down with it had been urged that the reduction of the hours must eventually triumph, and that he had lit such a respect to the .estimable character of the late lamented of labour by one-sixth would involve a r e duction candle in England as could never be put out.—(Cheers.) elpsresentative for South L anc ashire, and felt sure that in the same proportion of the goods manufactu red. Sir J. GRAHAM could assure the House that after TA feeling was concurred in by every Hon. Gentleman Was the case so ? Was the reduction in the amount of the speech of the Noble Lord he felt great pain in rising Oil his (Mr. M. Philips').side of the House. produce in proportion to the reduction in the amount of to address them. He trusted he would not let fall a M r . AINSW ORTH said he should be wanting in the hours of labour ?—(Hear, h ear .) H e cou ld p ro d uc e single expression which could be construed into unkind- respect to the memory of Mr. Wilbraham if ho did not evidence to disprove that position.--(Hear, hear.) In ness or censure, for he believed the Noble Lord was ac also render his meed of praise and admiration for that the first place he would read an extract from a letter tuated by the best and the purest motives. So strong gentlema n 's high character and feelings. written to him by a gentleman who employed 1,200 had been the agitation upon t his sub j ect, that an address MANtifIESTER I MPROVEMENTS. hands in his mills.. (The Noble Lord here read an extract had been presented to her Majesty praying that she Mr. M. PHILIPS obtained leave to bring up the from the letter alluded to, in which the writer stated that would be pleased to remove him, and he had the honour report from the Committee on the Manchester Improve- a reduction in the hoursof labour to ten hours would only of laying that address himself before her Majesty.—(A ment (committed) Bill forthwith. sw D a r n . se ß a OW c ause a decrease of 1-12 th i n the amount of p r oduction , lau g h. ) The address stated that a Minister of the RING presente d a p e tition against the a s the increased en er gy o f the work would make u p the Crown was wilfull y p ersevering in a course of Harbour Bill. ' , difference; and this the writer stated to be the result of his cruelty and injustice towards the poorer and less On th e Blackburn millowner in a very motion of Mr. WILSON PATTEN, the own experience.) Another . exten- protected classes. When the Noble Lord first brought time, stud d ra p a a n ss ti ed Preston Railway Bill was read a third sive way of business had stated to him that the mill- his proposition before the House, he urged that it would owners would lose very little by the reduction of be beneficial to the commercial interests of the country. yoSrikr R. INGLIS presented petitions from places in' the hours of labour to ten hours.—(Hear t . hear.) But surely if the Noble Lord considered the contrary s 'Fe in favour of a ten hours' clause in the Pao' . He had, however, not been content with the opinions o . f l e n p f i o n r i m on a s ti s o o n g a e n n d er e a x ll p y er e i x e p n r c e e ss u e p d on b); h p i e s rs s o u n b s j o ee f t t , he h gr e greatest _ not maintain that assertion. Those who thought that toriee.Bill. The Right . Hen. Gentleman else presented the millowners. lie had sought the opinions of the ope Petitimas against the union of 'the dioceses of Bangor and rative spinners. He had proposed to the operative spin St. Asa* ners two questions. The first was, Is the reduction in by adop i t n in to g re th st e s co im ur p s r e ov p o r d o , p s o h se o d ul b a y vo th te e NwoitbblebLiniord; butthe Mr. HENRY BERKELEY presented a p e tition frm' the•produce in direct proportion to the reduction in the working classes would be better paid, and the manuface the solicitors of Bristol, co mplaining of the insufficiency hours of labour? The answer was, Certainly not.— turing ' of the compensation allowed under the Act the 6th o f . (H ea r, h e ar.) He then a sked a t h o w much they esti- those who thought that his proposition wo u ld h ave the Victoria, ;elating to Chancery Reform. mated the reduction of Preduce? Taking the estimate effect only of taking off six weeks from the year should vote against him. He thought that it could not be Mr. FERRAND presented two petitions in favour of a in the way most disadvantageous to themselves, they ten hours' clause in the Factories Bill estimated the diminution would not be more than one• doubted but that a reduction of the amount of work Mr. AINSI\ ORTH presented a petition from a nu- eighth. He had never heard it argued that a reduction done must be attended with a concomitant reduction of ges. He was sure that even the Noble Lord himself rri erous and respectable public meeting at Bolton, in of the time by one-sixth would cause a reduction of one- wa ' favour of a T en Hours' Bill. ' sixth of the profits. The second argument with which must acknowledge that a loss of one-sixth , of the work- Mr. WARBURTON presented a petition from Kendal, h e had to deal. was this, that a reduction wou ld ta k e ing hours must be attended with less to the operatives prayin g that if the Ten Hours' Bill passed, there should place in the same proportion of the value of the fixed themselves. The woollen manufactureys of this country be a reduction of all duties on corn and prov i s i ons . capital em ployed in trade. Now, it was probable that a were exporters to a great extent, and every day they Lord J. RUSSELL presented a p et iti on r i m , t h e re d uc ti o n would take place in the value of the fixed were meeting with competition in foreign markets and journeymen coopers of London, complaining of the ope- capital, but not to the amount supposed, as he would be meeting with rivals. He wished to point out to the . -ration of the duty on the importation of staves. able to show from a calculation which he had in his House that the price of the home market was materially Mr. S. WORTLEY presented ' a petition from the hand. (The Noble Lord then read the calculation, which affected by the state of the foreign market, and. . neighbourhood of Halifax, in favour of the Ten Ho ur s' s h owe d that, owing to * the less amount of oil, candles, with respect to both the cotton and woollen manufac . Bill; tallow, coals, and gas, which would be required if the tourers the fact was not to be dissembled that Lo - rd MARCH presented petitions from Sussex and hours of labour were reduced to ten, the loss of the the present rate of profits was redoc_ed to Kent, p ra ying for a repeal of the stamp duties on in- fixed Capital would only be the difference of twenty-four the minimum. This fact was amply proved by a re surances against hail-storms; also four petitions against per cent., which was the loss when the work was con- ference to the money market. With respect to the the union of the dioceses of Bangor and St. Asaph. tinned for twelve hours, and twenty and-half per cent. great increase he could state that the United States, Sir J. GRAHAM presented nine petitions—to 0 from which it would be if the work was reduced to ten hours.) a few years ago only consumed 160,00.0 bales of • 133 ,radford, signed by seventy-four millowners; one from He had this c alculation from one ot the m ost ex - cotton •goods, whilst in the year 1843 the number of biles !Ashton- un der.Lyne, signed by four millowners, em- teniive Manufacturers. of Europe. Those compen. were 325,000, being an increase of 220,000, or about Phiying 12,741. persons ; one from a town in. York- sating circumstances he had . mentioned he was 200 per cent. This went to show that there was a • s hire, signed by twenty-eight tnillowner , employing convinced would more than counterbalance the great decrease in the price of manufactures, and also 10,000'hands ; one from Oldham, signed by millowners, loss that might arise from the diminution of time. proved the application of increased capital, and the great ettnploying 8,000 hands ; one from Staleybrldge, signed But the cardinal argument he had to meet was the consequent competition that the manufacturers of this by millowners, employing 6,600 hands ; one from Brid- a lleged diminution which it was supposed would take place country had to meet. Mr. Horner, the inspector of ; port, one from Warrington, and one from Bolton. These from a diminution of time. Many of the statements-of factories, from accurate data, stated that in - the mills . mine petititions, together with the one he presented this kind were taken from the calculations of Mr. Horner, upon several parts of the Continent, where the law did from Manchester, were signed by 326 millowners, em- who stated with perfect candour that he derived his not enforce any ' inspection,_ the person s employed - I Dying 100,000 persons, paying eO,OOO/. a week in wages. statements from the manufacturers, but had never exa- worked as many as fourteen hours a day, and invariably • ae'd 2,500,0001. a year, and they prayed the House tha t mined the workmen themselves. The terms e folly" took their meals in the factory . Thate same gentleman •no iNminution to ten hours should be made in.the ti m e an d " nonsense" had been applied to those who denied stated, with respect to America,h it had become a • of employment, tie such a reduction would be fatal to the that such a result would take place. But no such ex- strong competitor with England, and in many instances manufactures of the country, and prove detrimental to pectation was ever entertained.--(Hear , hear.) He had the American manufacturers were satisfied to sell • the manufacturing labourers themselves. S e vere said ear'sso and he had never heerd the operatives say without reference to any profit, in order that they LANCASTER AND CARLISLE RAILWAY. The ingi of the people were not regulated by might drive the English manufacturers from the market. Mr. LASS COURT appeared at the bar, and said that the time they worked, but by the piece, and the sum of He should have no objection to this competition, he the had been to the House of Lerds, and that their Lord- money which *the workmen received at the end said, if they did not keep one of their hands tied behind 'ships had a ppointed a conference to consider the amend- of the week he received not for the sixty-nine hours their back.—(Hear, hear, from Lord Howick.) He dents on the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway Bill. he laboured, but for the pr . oduce of his labour.--(Hear.) heard that cheer from the Noble Lord—be supposed the Several Members were appointed as a Conference, The operatives were of opinion that by the reduction of Noble Lord referred to the corn-laws.—(Hear, hear.) and they immediately left the House to meet their Lord. the hours of work they would have increased means of At a proper time and occasion he was quite ready to After a short time, social and domestic economy, and that a prolongation enter into t hat ar g ument. When the p osition of the shie s . Mr. DOTCOURT returned, and informed the House of the term' of -their working lives would be conferred home and the foreign market should be considered, he that he had left the Bill, a nd the reasons of the House upon them. They held that a diminution of the time of should be prepared to contend that a protection for for disagreeing from their Lordships' amendment, with l a bour would lead to a rise in price. It had been asserted agriculture was indispensable. But he for the present the Conference. ' that there would be a diminution of produce in conse- postponed that argument —(A laugh.) It would be NEW' Conference., OF PARLIAMENT. qUence of working shorter hours. This had - been as- enough if he said this, that supposing, for the sake of argu '' Mr. HUME gave notice that he . would put a q u e ll .. s e r t e d b o th i n s peeches in that House and in evidence ment, that the corn-laws did unduly narrow their produc-' tion, a t an ear ly period, to the Noble Lord opposite, taken before Committees. But when the hours were tive industry, was there common sense, was there common respecting the expenses of tiseNew Houses of Parliament. reduced hour's 120, from fourteen, fifteen, and even justice, the corn-laws being continued, that they should . DISSENTERS' CHAPELS BILL. sixteen ,to twelve holies, this result had proceed' to impose a . penalty on that productive indus- This Bill was brought down from the House of Lords, not followed. In the years following 1820 the try, by taking one-sixth from the number of hours of ' arid read a first time. i as nEu n tvi o oe t nry p ot o bf s i s nt i h b g l e e l. ni a i um s s a et importation of cotton wool amounted to 466,000,0001b5., labour ?--(Hear, hear.) But he was proceeding to show Mr HINDLEY hoped the Bill would not be hurried and the weekly consumption of it was increased-, tmhoapdtreoaodfuricsreeevcieonvintehrdeiunspgtrritycheewoofluolpsdsrotedhrueecadetiemw. t,hrougo the House, as there was great interest excited while there was no falling off in the aggregate con sumption. In the years following ,1820 the exports of in the cou.ntry about it. Sir. R. p 4 e;EL said that the Bill was only going unity from this .country were increased to 46,000,000/. official remain as it was in this respect, and it necessarily fol- Printed d that the House would have full opportty value. Let them observe what had taken place in other lowed that there must be a reduction of wages. If there . ,am of disco it. countries. In France the importation of' cotton wool in was no reduction of wages, the loss must fall upon capi '' o INTERCOURSE WITH CHINA. 1840, as compared with the importation in 1820, had in- tal, and,' the loss falling upon capital, one of two Mr. HUMS inquired whether there was any aim" cre ased 162 p er ce n t. , and the exportation of cotton menu- things must happen—either that capital would •' .tion to collect, as speedily as possible, all the factures had increa se dd ur i ng th esame p ee i o due percent., be withdrawn from the country and embarked in orders th a t h a d been printed and p ublished regulating while in England from 1820, th e fi rst y ear o f restriction, to industry of the same kind in foreign countries, ~ . the intercourse of British subjects with the Chinese. 1840, the imports of cotton wool had increased 288 per not subject to the same disadvantages, or, if not abso - Sir R.• pREL said Lhat every order and regulation cent., and the export of manufactured cotton had in- lutely withdrawn from the country, parties would retire • that was necessary on the subject. had been made known. creased 220 per Ilen e It co u ld never be imagined that manufacture thisticular branch of industry, and that kind of . ' pth . oa T ati iheei,nAmerica, a new country with large tracts of fertile land would fall into decay; in either case SUGAR .0 u 11 ' 4 °' , by o C n H a ANCELLOR of the*maeufactures with an old the withdrawal of Ellis capital, a fearful fall of wages wealthy country like Great Britain. The third p o i n t to must ensue.. Supposing that reduction to be only par. EXCHEQUER said unoccupied. e ould compete in answer to a question from the Noble Lord-op-gce to state that on ! which he would call the attention of this House, was the -tial, then the question came, to what amount would Preceding - day, he beg st 24th instant argument of the . reduction of wages. •In 1818 and 1819, , wages be retlit.ced? The Noble Lord said what was l ooking at 'eh; state of public business, tit. would be the day on which the S ugar :Duties Bill the two yeers immediately preceding the years to which morally wrong could thene politically right. He did • Would be brought before the House. the restrictionurp the hours of factory labour was im- ' not demur to that; but en the Nehlp fiord rested . pose d, the wages of the One spinner of cotton were 11.125. the onus of proof that the system of regulation of labour Mr. ELLIS inqui d whether it was intended to m ake of the women, 145.; in this country was morally wronge—(Hear, hear.) partially refined su any difference in the duties o raw and on cloyed a week, of the coarse spinner,ll. As, notovithstamaing the But he (Sir James Graham) had yet to learn that gar, imported from theßritish . bides? , .y e seriction, continued the same. The records of ; l eapt it would be possible greatly to diminish, or even '' co - j and in 1820 and 1821 the wages, The CHANCELLOR ' CHEQUER said , of the EX he ot'. toe (=tory districts, which were most carefully cone at all to, reduce - the general rate of wages -in e must give the E that he strum': od, particularly those of Manchester and D o lt on , the manefaetpripg distiacts,. 'without producing such had , on. Gentleman the same answer already given to other • uiries on the sub - showed !hat hi 1621 and 1822, there were the general poverty, soch physicel dOgraflation, etich ail similar inquiries on Jett—that it was better of detail same wages for labour es in the preceding years. a 1160110() Pr all civilised manners .-and habits, as ip • till the 'whole • to reserve any question In fact, n et one Of the predictions which had his judgment, would leave those districts jn a state a , subject was before the House. PRISONS (SCOTLAND) BILL of labour that would be been made on the decline . con- confusion that would tend to throw them back into a On th e mot i on t h at the Ord fo r . the third tient Upon the reetriction of the hours of labour were state of primitive barbarism. Such would be the fecreage Order of the Day . , readin ^ verified. It was said that the loss f e ll o n the of 'iO crime, so widely would it spread over the face of the g or the Factories Bill be read 'Mr. HU, 1 11.6 said that the • ''Billthe ufacturers. Now, even if so, there was quite i country, that it would be disgraceful to the Legislature stood Prisens Scotland)i man M that the energy that had on the paper fel-this -,evening; but as it was itn-- 1 Enough of gat. la • A 0.4.P4.#.P. a Folic, that 9010 lead t 9 such con. ' • , _ .... • ... .. .. _ ._,. sequences, and that did :uothing to prevent them.— ,(Hear, hear:) But whether the loss fell upon capital, or whether it would fall upon wages, was a matter to the working classes of comparative indifference. The great injury and the great loss to 'them would ari , e from the diminished demand fur the only property they possessed—their labour, and which must cause a fall in the- amount of the Wages on which so much of their well being, their virtue, and #eirAap piness depended. Th y might talk of confiscation.; 'but, he must say it,seemed to him that this Act, if it passed, would be a confiscation of the most wide-spread kind; it would be a confiscation of the only, property the masses possessed; it would be a confiscation of one-sixth part of the working, capital of the country. Many kinds of confiscation . had had the excuse proffered - for them, that they were made for the benefit of others ; but in this case. there was no such excuse. It' placed in some jeopardy th e cap i ta l' o f t h e coun try ; it plaied in some jeopardy the national prosperity. .What, then, was the excuse for it to the working classes ? It was said that'it was calculated to to refit them. 'Nov he (Sir J. Graham) would be s a ti s fi e d, if he thought the matter was enderstood by the working classes them selves. What was stated by the Hon. Member for Old ham ? No man was better acquainted with the work ing classes than the Hon. Member, and he said it had got into their heads that they ;worked too hard, and pro duced too much, and that if, they laboured less profits would rise, and wages would not fall. NoW he was corn pelled•to combat this opinion. He thought that by the operation of such an .Act, profits could not rise, and that wages must fall. They had in their heads the in verse of that proposition—that prices must rise, and that wages would rise also. Now he (Sir J. Graham) held that those who were the leaders of this movement were more responsible than public men almost ever were, for setting before the working classes the truth of this matter. It was no slight pOint of difference and until to-night he had really believed that the Noble. Lord would be slow to admit- as a fact that Wages would not be affected by his proposal. But at all the public meetings that had been held on this question, this was the doc trine that was maintained.—(" No, no.") He spoke in the presence of an Hon. Member who attended those meetings, and h e wou ld a pp ea l t o the words of the Hon Member for Oldham, who well knew the state of opinion among the working classes, and who was the coadjutor of the Noble Lord, and a great champion of the Ten Hours' Bill.—(He read the passage from the. Hon. Member for Oldham's speech, as before given.) Now he (Sir James Graham) thought that on a subject of this nature it was necessary the Noble Lord should state openly and manfully his own - opinion ,• for if the working classes were deceived, if they were told that the effect of the measure 'would be' or little importance to them in respect of wages—if they were led to press for the measure, and disappointment should ensue, it would be no consolation to them to know that the persons whom in their despair - they would most blame were persons whom they would say, unjustly, but in the bitterness .of their hearts would say, ought to have bet tered their real interests, while they had but ministered to . their prejudices and passions.—(Hear.) Those, therefore, who advocated, this measure. were most re sponsible for the statement of their real opinions on this subject. If they contended ;that the, measure would not be followed by a fall of wages—if they told the working classes they might seek with perfect impunity this abridgment of their time of labour. that was a fair question, for debate in that House. But if they were wrong, if wages should fall, then he contended, those who supported this proposition incurred a responsibility greater than ever men had incurred, with respect to the arrangements of civilised society. He saw as clearly as anything was ever seen, that this would be the end, and there was no responsibility he would not incur, rather than the responsibility of supporting this proposition. The Noble Lord asserted that he was violating the principles of a representative government by pressing the re-consideration of this question. If, in asking for this revision, he had employed any means but those of ar gument and reasoning, then he should consider himself to blame; but being resolved not to incur the responsibility of such, a decision, he submitted that he had a right to call upon the House, while it was yet time, to reconsider the course it had taken : and if, on consideration and argu ment that judgment should be sanctioned and confirmed, then surely he had done nothing inconsistent with the principles of representative government ; nor, he hoped, was there anythiny improper or overbearing in saying that he would prefer retiring from public life rather than consent to this proposition. Having dwelt rather on the principles' than the details of this question, he was unwilling to follow the Noble Lord into all those details into which he had entered. His ;positions were these— that there would not be a diminution Of production, and that wages and prices would rise ; and the Noble Lord.-. stated, on authority. of a person wom he did not name, that•the reduction in the price of wages, would not be equal to, orco-extensive with, the reduction of time. Now he had a statement from 328 master manufacturers, em ploying-100,000 hands, and paying 50,0001. per week in wages, amounting to two mill ions an d a half annually. They all stated that the measure now contemplated would prove fatal to the profits on their capital, and would entail on their labourers a large and serious re duction of wages. The Noble Lord had also mentioned that the reduction in the price of the labour employed on a yard of cloth would be of a penny per yard. This would amount to sd. on 25 yards. Now, 25 yards per day was a low estimate for the produce of each loom during the day; thus there would be a loss of sd. per day upon each loom, which in a moderate-sized esta blishment of two hundred looms, would amount to 4/. 3s. 4d. per day ; and on the week a loss of 23/. 19s. 8d- On the whole year the loss 'would be 1,1964 or about 10 per cent. on the whole capital em barked in the concern. This statement he •had attested by most competent authority. Mr. Kinnersley stated that in a mill consisting of 1,600 looms, the loss would be 13/. 6s. Bd. per day, 91/. 13s. 4d. per week, 9,583/. per year—a sum equivalent to a loss of 5 per cent. on 191,0001. These were the interests they were about to touch ; these • were the interests which they would destroy ; • their interference would give the death-blow to their manufacturing greatness. He was unwilling to detain the' House at greater length ; yet it was important, taking the stand on the subject which he did, that he should show he had some reason on his side. The Noble Lord said that, putting the loss at one-sixth, it was placing it much too high, but he was ready to allow a diminution of one twelfth. He (Sir J. Graham) would take it at the lower amount. He was informed that the fixed charges of production in such concerns were very nearly equal to the amounts paid, and a loss of one twelfth on the amount of wages would also be a loss of 'one-twelfth on the fixed capital: Even upon the data of the Noble Lord, the loss to the employers by the reduction of time added to the loss,on the fixed ' capital to be transferred would amount to a reduction of one -sixth of the existing wages enjoyed by the workmen. .Unless they supposed that, concur rently with the loss of 20 per cent. in their wages, there was to be a correspondent reduction on the' price of the articles of the first necessity, he could not believe that any misfortune that could befal the working classes would be more disastrous and fatal than such a reduc tion.—(Cheers.) He was sorry the Noble Lord the Member for London was not in his place. That Noble Lord was the representative of the great capital of the. commercial 'world. When, in the year 183 9 , his. Noble Friend brOught f orwar d the proposition which they were now discussing, the last occasion which he did so while the Noble Lord was in office, the Noble Lord then, having the responsibility of the conduct of public affairs upon him, declared that a proposition for shortening the hours of labour, with the present high price of provisions un reduced, was a proposition of the greatest inhumanity. His Noble Friend said he was accused of inhumanity. That was the first occasion on which the charge of inhumanity was preferred against his Noble Friend. It was made by the Noble Lord the Member for London. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble. Lord said it was a cruel proposition, and that it would be the ruin of the country. That was the view which the Noble Lord now repre.; senting the emporium of the commerce of the world took on the moral consideration of the question. lie said it was inhuman, and would be cruel in practice, and he should vote against it.—(Cheers.) He (Sir J. Graham) who was then in opposition, and opposed to the general policy of the Noble Lord, did not ,shrink from the - obloquy • of ' voting with the Noble Lord against the proposition of his Noble Friend, and he did so because he concurred with the Noble Lord in the opinion that it would, be, in its practical result, inhuman and cruel towards the working classes. That was the view the Noble Lord took of the moral part of the question._ Was that all? , The Noble Lord 'was not then the representa tive of London, but he was responsible for the conduct of public affairs.—(Hear, hear.) Had the Noble Lord changed his. opinion since lie went into opposition, or since the commencement of the time that he went int 6 opposition? By no means. The Noble Lord, .now the representative of the,City of London—the Noble Lord who led the opposition with such abilitity and power against the Executive Government, thought— there were some rumours of deputations being sent to the Government, and that there were some interviews on the first day of the session of 1842, and, being jealous on the subject, he thought that Government were about to give way to popular impulses and feelings in a matter which he considered as primarily important to, the na tional 'he in co t present interests. 't eres Parliament,t s. O t t h h e e ist 3 o d b o I e f February d , lt l o B n 42 t menial view of the subject—the moral view he took in 1839—and he would read to 'the House what that view was. After alluding to the rumours of interviews which were held by certain parties whom he described as the "social editors of some • New Moral World,'" the Noble Lord said that " the limitation of labour to ten hours, if adopted, would cut up by the roots the manufac turing prosperity of this country." -- (Loud cheers.) There was the opinion of the Noble Lord on 'the moral effects of the measure when he had the responsibilities of a Minister of the Crown 'in 1839, that it was an in human and cruel measure.--(Hear,,hear.) . There was his opinion on the commercial view in 1842, when he said it would cut up by the roots the manufacturing prosperity of the country, and.though the Noble Lord was absent now, he hoped before the debate closed they would have the advantage of hearing what new facts and circum stances came •to light to Induce him to alter his opinion since then.—(Hear.) He ,(Sir J. Graham) voted with the Noble Lord in 1839. He agreed with him in 1842, and, regardless of the censecniences, it was his firm de. termination to give the motion of the Noble Lord his un compromising opposition.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend aslted why they had not declared they entertained those strong opinions. Why, had they not voted with the Go, vernment in 1939, which they 'laboured to overthrow, against the proposition of the Noble Lord? . Was not , that sufficient evidence of their opinions ? They had not yielded one inch. Did not the Noble Lord give it to tio, from Lord Ashley.) He understood, t h e Noble th be understood that he would not take part in their coup - ' became they would not eomprolnisc any of their " opinions lo iPn s s t Cmi the, thesulueet, and th a t it was o n this ground great advantages of' his services?—(" Lor d to sa y, that because some concession IV* " t e on this subject ha dicreot .tape office, and did. not yield t° fasci llatiQ° o f ofaCe• • 119" w i ts resolved to res l 4 . Lord HOWICK said he would accept the challenge thrown out by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and state distinctly what his views were on the important point of the reduction of wages.—(Hear, hear.) But, before doing so, he begged to state that he heard with regret what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet respecting the course which would be pursued by the Government in the event of being de feated on this subject. He alluded to the impression which had gone abroad, that a threat of resignation on the part of the Ministers was held out in case they were defeated ; and the Right Hon. Baronet told them, in the most distinct language, that he would not, as a Minister of the Crown, consent to this measure coming into ope ration. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet in the general proposition, that no tyranny could be greater than to expect that a Minister would remain in office when the House compelled him to consent to that which he believed would be fatal to the country. He believed that was proper upon great questions of general policy and general principle, but to apply it to cases like the pre sent, one confessedly of detail, was to put an end to all deliberation.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was a dan • gerous invasion of the deliberative power of the House. —(hear, hear.) Lsaving this point, which incidentally arose, he came to the main question before them. In the first place, it was clear it was desirable to restrict the hours of labour, unless some convincing reasons to the contrary were shown. They had the opinions of the factory inspectors themselves on this point, and, indeed, they had their own common sense to guide them.—(lronical cheers from Mr. Roe buck.) Her Majesty's Government already restricted the hours of labour to twelve hours for females, which was, practically saying, that they must work ten hours ; and was it true that great danger or inconvenience would arise if they carried the restriction still further? The question was, would they, by determining for how many hours a day labour should be prolonged, incur great hazard, and those evils which they were told would follow from restricting the hours of labour?—(Here the Noble Lord turned round to the Hon. and Learned Mem ber for Bath, who was speaking in a rather loud tone of voice to an Hon. Member behind him, which two or three times caused a cry of " Order" in the House, and said), " I beg pardon of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath. He is interrupting, and no man is more into lerant of interruption than the Hon and Learned Gen tleman himself."—(Loud cheers.) Mr. ROEBUCK—I will talk when I like, and I will not ask the Noble Lord's leave.—(Oh, oh.) No right to talk Lord HOWICK—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman says he has a right to talk when he likes. I know the Hon. and Learned Member has very strange notions of what his peculiar rights and privileges are, but I always thought it was the privilege of any Hon. Gentleman who was addressing the House that he should not be inter rupted. Mr. ROEBUCK rose, amidst cries of " Order, order," and said, I rise to order. If I have in the slightest de gree interrupted the Noble Lord, I had not the slightest intention of doing so; and, if I have done so, I am sin cerely desirous of aplogising for it.—(Hear.) Lord HOWICK said that he accepted the apology of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman as most satisfactory, and nothing but the claim put forward by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that he had a right to talk, in duced him (Lord Howick) to say what he did. He would now return to the main question. The principal point was, as to the effect of his Noble Friend's amend ment on the foreign trade of the country. He would admit, for the sake of argument, though he disbelieved the fact, that a reduction of the hours of labour would create a preportionate diminution in the amount of goods produced. But he did not conceive if possible that women, and children, and young persons, after being exhausted by working ten hours a day, could produce the same amount of work in the two following hours which they would produce during they same time when they came fresh to their work. Then as to the af fect which a reduction of the hours of labour would have on wages ; if it only affected those who were en gaged in producing goods for the home market, the wages and profits of manufacturing interests would not be so affected as to fall lower than in other occupations ; that was to say, that the produce of 100 labourers, working, suppose with a capital of 1,000/., could still exchange for the same amount of produce as before— that was to say goods would somewhat rise in the market if the home market alone was concerned. But they were told that its effects would be most serious upon the goods which were produced for the foreign mar ket. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated facts to confirm that view ; he showed how close competition was, and that if the measure of his Noble Friend (Lord Ashley) was adopted, it would be impossible to raise the price. This argument seemed to him (Lord Howick) to be founded on a misconception of the nature of the foreign trade. When a cargo of goods was sent to a foreign country it by no means followed that the profits depended on the price which the goods realised. Any practical mer chant might tell them at once, if they sent a cargo of cotton goods to Rio, it was not merely the price for which the goods were sold which determined whether it was to be a profitable or losing speculation. The specu lation might be a profitable or losing one, according to what was the expense of remitting the consignment. If the premium on the rate of exchange was small, the spe culation was a losing one, but if the premium re ceived was large for the same amount of goods sold, the speculation might be profitable.—(Hear.) That arose from a fact which, in all their discussions upon that subject, they had to a great extent over looked, that the whole of our export trade was, in point of fact, only a barter of one description of goods for an other. The whole of our export trade with foreign countries depended upon this circumstance, that we had in this country a demand for a great number of articles of foreign produce, which we either could not produce at all, or at least not so cheaply as they were produced abroad, and our manufacturers were employed in pro ducing those goods, the sale of which the experience of our merchants bad decided would be the most effectual mode of paying for those foreign productions. If that was the real nature of our trade, and he thought no man could deny it—if what put in motion those vast hives of industry in Lancashire and Yorkshire was to pay for the coffee, wine, sugar, tobacco, and the multitude of other foreign goods which we consumed in this country—if that was really the nature - of our foreign trade, he wanted to ask how it was possible that, even admitting that the amendment of his Noble Friend, if carried, would increase the cost of producing these articles—how could it possibly have any effect in preventing our foreign trade ? Would the foreign de mand decrease? Would the desire to obtain coffee, sugar, wine, and those articles which were the main spring of the whole machinery of commerce—would that desire fail? Certainly not. If those goods were still important, our merchants would, as before endea vour to. find the means of paying for the importations they made ; and the goods we now sent out would be as available for that purpose as they were now, and the only effect which in his opinion they would have reason to dread from foreign competition was, that it might make them give a larger amount of the produce of their own labour for the different kinds of goods they imported.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. Roebuck.) He was . glad the lion. and Learned Gentleman attended to his argument. They would have to give a somewhat larger amount of the produce of their own labour and capital in order to obtain the same amount as before of those various articles of foreign produce.—(Hear, hear.) Ile did not deny that a certain degree of inconvenience would arise from the diminution of their productive power. But what he would show them was that the burden of the inconvenience would not fall peculiarly upon the opera tives engaged in these factories or upon the manufac turers, but that it would fall upon the community at large. They would purchase a less amount than before of tea, coffee, and other foreign goods, because the foreigner being able to resort to other markets for those goods which we exported, and because more of our labour was required to produce the same amount of goods as formerly—the foreigner would refuse to grant an increase in the amount of goods which he gave us in return. It was true that to that extent there would be. inconvenience—that the whole amount of the foreign goods imported into this country, in return for the whole amount of our manufactures exported, would be to a certain 'extent diminished. But that burden would, as he said before, fall on the whole community in the shape of a somewhat increased price of the foreign commodity. But that would not in any degree endanger the safety of the foreign trade, nor cause such an extraordinary re•• duction of wages, as it had been contended it would. The danger was considerably less than the Right Hon. Baronet opposite would lead them to expect. He (Lord Howick) maintained that, instead of that exaggerated apprehension, either of the destruction of our export trade; or the ruin of our manufactures, all they would have to apprehend was a certain comparatively small di minution in the return they got from foreign countries for their manufacturing labour. lie was aware that that was a different view of the nature of foreign competition from that which was generally taken.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Roebuck.) But he was not the less persuaded that it was a just one—he was not the less persuaded that trade was essentially merely a barter of one set of goods for another. In the history of commerce they would perceive that to be the case. When enterprising mari ners in the early ages brought manufactures to the bar barous natives of this country, it was, as everybody ssafsnvi: but a simple exchange of one description of _gerono another, and that was equally the case in d com merce. Though we measure the price in n o b f il g ls on o d f s e , x ve . change and in money, yet it was the . amount received in this country, and nothing e s s N e i , ew which N‘ as our foreign trade. One proof that his correct was the very fact which the Right lion. Baronet opposite had stated of the close competition which foreign countries were able to maintain against us, in spite of great disad vantages with which they had to contend. The Right Hon. Baronet had pointed out Switzerland as able to maintain close competition with us, though we knew that that country could only obtain the vaw material by a long land carriage, or, by what - IN as not less expensive, internal n a v ighfion ; and that our manu f actured goods come back in the same way. The Right Honourable Baronet said that Switzerland had the advantage of a gr , at water power ; hut they well knew that that was so little of an advantage compared with a good situation, that the immense water-power of the highlands of Scot land was . never brought into operation. Her situation MORNING, MAV n, 1844. this proposition to the utmost of his power.—(Hear, hear.) He believed it t. be impolitic—to be, at this juncture, particularly inexpedient, when the commerce and trade of the country were so long languishing ; he believed the moment for proposing it was ill chosen—the measure was admitted to be dangerous. He was satis fied, if the hours of labour were limited, it would be most injurious to the working classes ; and, entertaining that opinion, he never could vote for such a proposition. Lord ASHLEY rose to explain. Ile never, under any circumstances, would have accepted office, had he known the intentions of the Government on this subject ; but no answer was given him respecting their intentions, so that he did not know whether the Government would accept or reject his proposition for a reduction of the hours of labour to tea hours.—(Hear, hear.) was against Switzerland ; yet, despite that disadvantage, Switzerland was able to maintain a successful competi tion with us. And why was it so ? Because Switzer land required to consume a certain amount of foreign produce, and it was found that the cheapest way in which she could pay for that was by her manufactures. Though the disadvantages of her situation told greatly against her, thouuh she made on the whole scarce a fair return for her industry, still she was able to carry on a trade which supplied the wants of her population by the exchange of her manufactures for foreign goods. And why was that ? It was because she had not imposed re strictions on the freedom of commerce.—(Hear, hear.) There was a still stronger case. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated that the United States of America were driving us out of many neutral markets. He (Lord II.) believed that to be so. He believed that the manufac- turers of the bnitedSt;ies;;;;tccessfully competing with us in many of the third markets of the world. How did they account for that on their principle that whatever rendered manufactures dearer rendered all competition impossible ? It was notorious that the rate of wages was higher in the United States than in this country. But he denied that the price of the raw material was dearer here than it was in America, because a bale of cotton in bond in Liverpool imported from New Orleans was, if anything, cheaper than a bale of cotton in bond at Mas sachusetts imported from the same place. The expense of the conveyance from New Orleans to Liverpool was not greater—(Cries of " Less, less")—than from New Orleans to Massachusetts. It was not, therefore, the price of the raw produce which enabled the manufac turers of the United States to maintain a competition with us. Then, what was that that upon their prin ciple of the impossibility of raising prices or wages when there was foreign competition—what was that that enabled the North American manufacturer to successfully compete with us ? He had seen a trade circular from China the other day, stating the great amount of North American manufactures that was imported into that country ; and he must say, that the trade circular stated the reason of that fact to be, as he believed it, that in the worth American United States no duty at all was levied upon tea, and, consequently, tea was very rapidly rising in consumption in that country, and the North Ameri can manufacturer produced those goods for the purpose of paying for that tea which they required for their countrymen. If they calculated the expense of the Ame rican manufacturer in money, and of the Manchester ma facturer in money, on the spot, it would be found, no doubt; that the Manchester manufacturer could produce a yard of cotton cheaper than the American, but yet that did not enable him successfully to compete with the American, because the latter had the advantage in the return cargo. That supported his principle that their competi tion with foreign countries was not a matter of such formidable danger. He was persuaded that, with re spect to China, they must put an end to competition with America. If they received the corn of America into this country, it would be a cheaper mode for the American to buy tea, to send corn here, and purchase manufactures with the price thereof, and then send out those manufactures to China; but we, by our laws, would not allow that to take place, and, con trary to what nature really intended, viz., that a fully peopled country should be a manufacturing country, and that a half-settled country should he an agricultural country, we compelled the American mer chant to pay for the tea which he required for consump tion, not by British but by American manufactures. He was perfectly sensible how imperfectly he had been able to state those views to the House, but he knew how difficult it was, upon what was, after all, rather a ques tion of abstract political economy, to argue in an assem bly like that. But unfortunately- it was those doctrines which were at the bottom of the question ; and, there fore, it was not in his power to avoid going into them. The argument that foreign competition would ruin their trade was totally visionary, and equally visionary was the great fall of wages which they anticipated would be the imaginary ruin of their manufactures. All that would really happen was that they would, to a certain degree, diminish the productive powers of this country--(Hear, hear)—and that the burden would be thrown not on one particular class, but upon the whole country. First, by the slightly increased cost of the manufactures required for the home market. Of course if manufacturing labour was less productive than hitherto, there would be somewhat of a diminution in the abundance of the supply for the home market, and the cost would be thereby increased. But that would be only for a short extent of time, for they all knew, so great was the progress of improvement in machinery, that there was no question ten hours' labour per day would produce a larger amount of goods for home consumption than twelve hours would a few years previously. The inter ests of the working classes were deeply involved in the question, and he would recommend the House to adopt that compromise of an Eleven Hours' Bill to which the House had pledged itself on a former occasion. He owned that that did appear to him to be so hazardous an experiment upon the temper and minds of the popu lation in the manufacturing districts, that even if he bad on previous occasions voted against his Noble Friend, he would hesitate much before he repeated that vote, he would shrink from being a party to altering the deci sion to which they had already come. If injurious con sequences followed, the exclusive responsibility would rest with her Majesty's Government. He hoped and trusted that the working classes NN ould petition. They might be certain that though what they desired was postponed, it was virtually carried.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. Ferrand.) He said again it was virtually carried. He believed they would not find in the whole course of Par liamentary history, any question in which the great body of the people took so deep an interest—(Hear) — which was not ultimately brought to a successful issue. —(Cheers.) He knew not how long the struggle might be prolonged, but of its ultimate issue he entertained not the slightest doubt. He could not help asking even her Majesty's Government whether they themselves were not in their hearts persuaded that it could only terminate in one manner, and, if so, he asked them was it well that the struggle should continue ?—(Cheers.) Mr. LIDDELL said he could not help thinking that the Noble Lord had somewhat perplexed his own argu ment by the manner in which he had treated the subject of foreign trade.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had diverged into the subject of protective duties. He con ceived that the corn-laws did not necessarily enter into this question. If those laws were to be justified at all, they were to be justified on grounds altogether inde pendent of a Ten Hours' Bill. Never, since he had had a seat in Parliament, had he felt so much difficulty in reconciling his feelings and his judgment as in refe rence to that question. His feelings went entirely along with the Noble Lord, whereas, after the most deliberate and careful consideration, he felt himself compelled to vote with her Majesty's Government.—(Hear, hear.) There was nothing novel, indeed, in the principle of the Noble Lord's proposal. In the case of agricultural labour. they had practically ten hours' daily work. In the case of bricklayers, woodcutters, and others, the hours of labour were from sunrise to sunset—from six in the morning till six in the evening, with two hours respite from toil—(Hear, hear) and if ten hours were enough for them, with the fresh breath of Heaven blowing upon them, it was certainly enough for those who were employed in factories. Now ho did not consider her Majesty's Government had acted on that occasion with their usual discretion and foresight.—(Hear, hear.) He must say that if the Go vernment were prepared originally to take their stand on this great question, if they were determined to come to no compromise whatever, notwithstanding the deci sion of that House, they ought at least to have stated their opinions, in order that their intentions might have been evident to their supporters and friends in that House.—(Laughter.) By not having done so the Go vernment had been exposed to considerable perplexity. —(Great laughter.) He said, from his own knowledge, that there were many Hon. Gentlemen who, if it had been known that such importance was attached to the ten hours' clause, would not have voted with the Noble Lord without closely examining all the arguments, and they might then have come to a different conclesion.—(Great laughter.) It was perfectly true that the reasoning which applied to this subject was not obvious on the surface. One feeling was obvious ; but a little previous reflection, and more consideration of the subject, might have induced many to abstain from giving a vote which, when once given, it was very diffi cult to retract.— (llear.) But though he did not ap prove of the course pursued by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham), he gave him full credit for honesty and sincerity of purpose. The Noble Lord (Lord llowick) stated that this was not a question which, however it might be decided, would call for the resignation of the Government. Had the Noble Lord thoroughly consi dered the provisions of this Bill ?—(Hear, hear.) Did he not know that it was a question affecting a vast deal of property, and vast masses of the community, and that the Government had had previous conference with the parties immediately concerned ?—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet felt himself bound to adhere to the provisions of his own Bill ; and he was not sur prised, therefore, at his suggestion, that rather than be guilty of any dishonourable compromise he wonld retire into private life. He felt entire confidence in the good e intentions of the Government. 'What possible din the induce ment, ment, except a sense of duty, could possi bl y induce d lt Government to take the course they had one could not be a wish to please the Crown ; for no_o ne in ha its-beingeoofuld not this t c a o n u t n s t a r); eoru mostd s o r g e r j a o e i i c e e e i s n i% t i h a i c e • t e ). 1 ,. l f.riendes,ieffuolr o to ppo rn si a t n io y n of btheema desire e - could i n n ot P be influenced (Hear.) Lastly, they i by the to we p r l e eas p e la th ce e d ir desire of truckling to their opponents ; for in that case they would have pursued a different course. One cause alone could have induced the Government to pursue the course which they were then pursuing, namely, a strict sense of duty, a thorough consciousness of the responsi bility an y compromisechrested f tuponhitFsoogrtrhtethoahestemesciec,ul ea tt rss n etsa d ieosson a %n,sllN. firm belief that o o hm u e would shouldhbe e Billa great sup portr a wast idneterni Mr.mtd he e ßed n I T " Tan d seAun i rnLeejfiuotrs. of her d Majesty'se R i Government. (Sir J. t Hon. Graham) had charged the Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) with changi ng hi s tactics on that occasion, because he had taken up the commercial view of the question. Now he contended that the position of the Nobl e L or d' s opponents h a d un d ergone a manifest revolution.—(Hear, hear.) It was the principle of the Noble Lord's proposal which had been discussed on former occasions by those who were opposed to it.— (Hear.) He appealed to Hon. Gentlemen whether that was not the case ; and whether they had now des sorted the position which they then assumed.—(Hear.) He would be the last man to refer to former debates ; but he could not help saying, that he had regretted not having the opportunity of rising on an occasion when the First Minister of the Crown delivered some very excellent sentiments, not only couched in eloquent language, but marked by good taste, sound sense, and right feeling, in reference to the necessity of providing not merely education ' but healthful means of recrea tion and amusement for their poorer fellow-subjects. He would ask the Right Hon. Baronet, and those wha supported him in that view, bow those were to b 5 1140 re- creation who laboured twelve or fourteen hours a day? —(Hear, heaf::) What recreation could - there be for persons who Went to their work at six in the morning, and never left it until half-past seven at night?---(Hear, hear.) Where and how was this recreation to be ob tained ?—(Hear, hear.) Those who supported the Noble Lord were charged with pandering to the passions of the people. Were not those who made this charge guilty of something like hypocrisy when they talked of the necessity of administering to the healthy recreation of the people ?—(Hear, hear.) Throughout the whole of that discussion, there had been a contrariety of statement, a variety of allegation which was excessively amusing, and he might say mysterious. On the one hand, it was stated that these factories were a kind of earthly paradise ; on the other, that they were the receptacles of reeking disease and oppression. He knew that the master manufacturers of this country formed a body who were to be highly valued for their general benevolence ; but, on the oth er h an d, h e cou ld not turn away from te statement made on the part of the operatives. He supposed that most Hon. Gentle man had seen the deputations of operatives which had come from Manchester and Yorkshire. The very first question which he (Mr. Bernal) had put to these depu tations was, "Are you prepared to take the chance of an abatement of wages.?" They replied, "We are." He asked them whether the probability of a reduction of wages had been fairly laid before the artisans, and the reply was in the affirmative.—(Hear, hear.) When he had an interview with one of those deputes tions, he asked them, were they prepared to give up a portion of their earnings for those shorter hours ? Their answer was, " Yes, we will—the probable deduction of wages could not be greater than what we lose by the in terruption of our domestic comforts. Besides, we have to pay for washing, ironing, and scouring, which our wives are not able to do."—(Hear, hear.) He could not admit that any person supporting the proposition of the Noble Lord was pandering to the passions of the people. (Checrs.) It was impossible to deal with men and wo men upon the strict principles of political economy as laid down in books.—(Hear, hear.) Men could not be dealt Aith as the - pieces upon a chess-board.—(Cheers and laughter.) This question should be dealt with by the dictates of common sense.—(Laughter.) He would ask whether the operatives of Manchester and the rest of Lancashire were not able to judge of their own inte rests ?—(Hear.) Suppose you were to give a so-bye to this question, would there not be still a sore in the minds of the people? If the go-bye were given to the question, ' would not the feeling of the people be that the House of Commons did not represent the feelings nor the in terests of the working classes.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) had referred to Mr. Horner's statement respecting the state of manufactures in Switzerland, where there were fac tories in which people worked fourteen or sixteen hours. But why not refer to Massachusets ?—(Cheers.) Why not to other places where there was no limitation to hours oflabour?—(Cheers.) If the Right Hon. Baronet meant his argument to be valid, he ought to abandon his Bill altogether.—(Cheers.) With all the research of the Right Hon. Baronet, he would ask whether he did not find that the labour of twelve hours was more than women were capable' of enduring ? The surgeons examined before the Commission declared that they thought ten hours more than the period during which women could continue to labour in the factories.—(Hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House by referring to particular points of the evidence, such as the condition of women who were on the point of parturition.—(llear, hear.) There had been reference, in the course of the debate, to the hard labour which was suffered by women in the agricultural districts. But it was not to be denied that, in agricultural labour, women were not employed, except upon extraordinary occasions, more than eight hours.—(Hear, hear.) The ' reports upon the subject of factories showed that life was shortened by in-door employment.—(Hear, hear.) It was rare to see an old man in a factory. It was rarely seen that a man lived long enough in factory employ.. ment to be able to use spectacles.—(Cheers and a laugh.) This was a question of principle upon which he must insist that all personal and party feelings ought to give way, and he hoped that the clause, having once been introduced, would never be abandoned, Mr. G. KNIGHT considered the question so peculiar and so important, as to require the deepest consideration of the House. He had carefully revolved in his mind the provisions of the with a sincere desire so to fashion it that it should secure the true interests of the working classes. From all that he had been able to learn on this subject—in despite of the arguments of the Noble Lord the Member for London—he had come to the conclusion that we should not be damaged in the foreign market by accepti ng t h e c l ause o f the Nobl Lord the Member for Dorsetshire. His conviction was that the measure of the Noble Lord would not only lead to a reduction of wages, but would strike at the root of employment, and lead to the destruction of the trade. They all recollected the dis tress and destitution which had been produced within the last three or four years by the mills working short time. If the mills should work short time permanently, how would it be possible for the people to live?—(Hear, hear.) If the trade of the country should be permanently lost, the depression would be permanent also. In a short time after a Ten Hours' Bill should be passed they would see those labourers who were now most anxious for the passing of such a measure tugging and tearing at each other for the purpose of procuring employment. He had received letters from persons who were residing in the manufacturing districts, and who were conversant with the feelings of the workmen in those districts. The writers of those letters stated, that in their opinion the national prosperity would be seriously endangered by a Ten Hours' Bill. All those who were best informed on the subject dreaded the introduction of such a measure. The Government Bill took care of the children, and that was all that was necessary. He thought the present discussion would do much good, by attracting public attention to the real merits of the question. It would hare been much more agreeable to him to have supported the motion of the Noble Lord ; and it was with great regret that he felt himself bound to oppose it. But be lieving, as he did, that it would be most for the benefit of the country that the motion of the Noble Lord should be rejected, he felt bound to vote against it , —(lronical cheering.) Mr. C. BULLER said that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Nottingham had exhibited a most asto nishing instance of forgetfulness.—(Cheers and laughter.) He had forgotten the reasons which had induced him to give no less than three votes in support of the measure of the Noble Lord.—(A laugh.) The Hon. Gentleman had not found out any new argument or new fact. It appears that all that was required was that his mind re quired some time for the arguments to be absorbed.—(A laugh.) The lion. Gentleman said that the great reason why he had changed kis mind was that he had had time since he had given his last three votes to get sober.--(Cheers and laughter.) Now he must say that such a case of habitual and continued intoxication—. (Laughter)—lasting through three several votes, given at an interval of a week from each other —such continued and habitual intoxication he had never before heard confessed to the House —(Laughter)— and considering how plain the arguments were which had convinced the Hon. Gentleman, and how completely the Hon. Gentleman's mind had been closed against them until that evening, he could not but come to the conclusion, that the Hon. Gentleman must have been very bad indeed.—(Roars of laughter.) But he did not wish to divert the attention of the House to personal matters. His own speeches on former occasions had been much commented on and much misrepresented, but he did not desire to draw the attention of the House to a personal matter, when they were discussing a great national principle, the magnitude and importance of which, it was impossible to overrate—(Cheers)—and to waste their time by diverting their attention to petty and paltry personalities.—(Cheers.) This ques tion had been greatly prejudiced by the introduction of personal allusions and arguments. Since he had given his vote when they had last discussed this question, he had seen some of the largest master manufacturers of the country. There was a painful impression upon his mind that the vehement opposition of that class arose not so much from a dread or a dislike of the measure itself, as a feeling of' indignation at certain statements which had been made, and which were injurious to the cha racter of the master manufacturers of the country,— (Hear, hear.) He had never dwelt on those statements N th o a b t le th L os o e rd sta t t h e e . He did not dispute th e as a justification for his vote. and exceptional cases Member for Dorsetshire. He accuracy of the statements of apply to partial and exce ptional eases, state meats might admittedthe b e considered as fair samples of cases would of the manufacturing district s . I n the general state this debate the to ne o opponents but he denied that those os t e he p ir artial uncommonly low. They said nothing about pri nc i p l e. ina, et fact, the Government had thrown principle overboard —(Cheers)—and had taken refuge in degree. His Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Bath had, without an y great degree of success, tried to test the House by submitting to the principle of the question. The prin ciple for which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman con tended was, that it was unjustifiable for the Legislature to interfere. Mr. ROEBUCK—I did not say unjustifiable. Mr. C. BULLER—That it was inexpedient to inter fere with adult labour. Now the House maintained that it was justifiable to interfere with the contracts for labour in factories, and her Majesty's Government sup ported it. He would venture to say that they were supported in that respect by the master manatee. turers of the country. There were four instances in particular, in which the principle of interference with. adult labour had been acknowledged. The first was in the case of the Miners and Colliers Bill, which was be fore the House last year. In that Bill the Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) was supported by the Right Hon. Barone Secretary for the Home Department, who defended the Bill as a most useful measure. Then there was the Bill of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Glad stone)—the Coal-whippers Bill. That was an inter ference with adult labour.—(Hear, hear.) But he would: take a much stronger case, and that was the inter-. ference with the emigration of Hill Coolies. Could they look upon that as a non-interference with adult labour? Then there was another instance, and that was the eourse which the Government had taken with respect tts the truck system. As bad been said that night, the question before the House Was simply one of degree. H e admitted that they had a case to make out.—(Hear, hear.) It had been said that the Legislature ought not to interfere without good cause.—(Hear, hear.) This was true, but that principle would apply to all, legislation. Now as to the good cause for interference. It had been admitted that the labourers in the manufac turing towns were not so healthy as labourers of a similes, class in the manufacturing districts. He did not s a y that this was owing to manufacturing labour en';frely„ but he did assume from th a t th at t h ere was something in the labour in the manufacturing districts which re• quired interference on the part of the Legislature. The second view he took of the case.was that labour of twelve hours a day was incousistent with a proper moral con dition, and well-being, and proper recreation of the people. The Right lion. Baronet had generously coma ore cet' ?cl to t Oa° rot* icting .D•a• e tbs l 1t5... 1 ell'''. Yor l ‘ ) 14' ;e , II