The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-21 00:00:00

• weeds returns were ordered by the House, and by them he learned that the Bill of the Noble Lord (Stan -. ley) would. materially diminish the franchise; he made up his !hind that •• he' would no • longer' support it. It as idle in those days to pin men don n in their . opinions. or fetter them too closely in. their -•actions. He did not wish to trouble the House with .his interpreta - -.tion of the. Catholic oath, but he must be permittoi to • express his regret that the Noble Lord '(Stanley) had - -thought proper -to allude to it.—(Hear, hear.) He could - not agree that the Catholic Members banded to gether in that House for the purpose of injuring the Vro - testant Church; on the contrary, they relinquished fOr the last two years the advantages their position gave them, for the purpose of pursuing their favourite sys tem. of agitation.. The great point now was what the • • Government proposed to do. • He wished the Right honourable. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) would take the same course in regard to the Irish Church that he had done in regard to commerce ; and he particularly de sired that he would announce his intentions. If he would make from time in time in that Church the same Steady and safe alterations and ameliorations as he had • done in our commercial code, the difficulties new experienced in Ireland would soon begin gra dually to disappear.—(Hear, hear.) He did not taunt the late Government with not carrying the ap propriation clause into effect. The Noble Lord, when he found he could not carry it out, very wisely abandoned it. The Catholic question stood on quite dif .. • ferent grounds from this motion, which involved a most unjust attack on the Government. • Several Hon. Members here rose together, but the Speaker ca ll e d On • Mr. GISBORNE, who said he did not think that, after .five nights' debate, the point was much farther advanced then it.was at first. It was almost unavoidable that. it should be so. In the speeches that had been made by ' members. of the Government—and he did not under value their merit—they had claimed far themselves . every good intention with regard to Ireland; they had laid claim to kindness and calmness in their general Policy, and to fairness in their administration of justice, • as well as impartiality in the distribution of the Govern ment patronage. 'These were their intentions. He ibultd it universally stated. by travellers and writers of -all nations who had visited Ireland, that there was no ' • - nation in the world with whom a little kindness Went so far se with the Irish people. As far as the ad•. rainistrative measures of the Government had gone • ' It had laidelaim to-kindness, forbearance,- and impar- On the other side they had a grateful, n gene - • ,_roes, and a confiding people; to that character of them t no„. Recorder of Dublin had borne testimony. He would •ISIt :them whether they found in Ireland the national results of this combination ? They would exp e ct un d er these circumstances to find.lreland in a state of. peace • ' 4 J I d, Prosperity. They would expect to find the people wring in confidence under such rulers. They would " "Peet to find them enjoying all the blessings which a country could enjOy. under - a beneficent Govern ' - Mont. -If this was not the . case surely. they must look on - the Hon. Gentlemen opposite as •• the most unrOrtuisate of men. - Surely they were good 'Men 'suffering _jiinclei adieuilly, : .if all the .g o oCiets which it was their intention to have brought !, 43 bear on the Irish . people, had failed. H e saw i n thi s ' a ct a eater reason for supporting the motion of the Noble Lord-thaninany speech he had heard addressed to the e .--pus- If the Government had failed, having such Ewa -intentions, surely it•was time for the House to ex amine if there was not something radically wrong in - the ° Mem by which, .it .;was Carried on. 'When the Go succeeded to office, the first thing they did was a PPoint - to the judicial bench two fierce political par ' „-Sans. He would say nothing with respect to their f o • • *etud e . position, or. of the excellence of their pri ' v a ts charact e r i •b u t •thi s th e G overnment could not teeny, that for many years, in that House; they • ere violent partisans. Suppose Mr. O'Connell had i l i N s_eh tried bef ore M r . Sergeant_ Jackson and Baron V i L_FOY; would any one have expected an impartial trial? 0 7. respect to their other appointment s , the defence 11 ` . t ae Government 'was _this, that though' they could . t • a lr° winhed. 'to have appointed Catholics to situa ,nseethe m a t er i a l• did no t ex i s t ; among t h e Catho - 7M' Ireland there'did not exist persons fit for these Jl K uninienta. .This. was another -calamity of the Go retrunent, which- was only demonstrative of th e situa , „hi__ which they were placed when they ..e:megtook the government - of that country. • It o a s • Precisely. the same • with other events. ibT a calamity after another seemed to fall on this un s-PPy Government... In. the first place, when they de , :reap "V s_ ", to try Mr. O'Connell, wishing to show the eo c 'st tairness, they determined not to try him by the • i on panel, because that, they said, they could have Tilect• Now surely they might have tried hint by the re - i 4l , l _non penel without packing it. But perhaps it • ut be that the Government did not wish to establish offs a Precedent as th a t o f t r yi ng a m an f or a p o liti ca l t h.ace, in Ireland, without ff packing the common jury; so e• t etermined to put oothe trial in order that they mi l have a fair jury. Here, again, calamity followed . e me :Without any fault on the part of the Recorder— With out any neglect on his part—almost without any Recorder— fault • 'n Puy body,. the :virtuous intention.of the Go . l e , ri e nnent was again disappointed. By some means or ` l 7 . r a certain sheet of the list of the jury was lost, on as.the Reeorder of Dublin-stated, almost all the domes were those oflloman Catholics. 'But they could • see -,the extent'of the misfortunes that fell on the Go ‘ernment till.they-came . to the striking off of 48 names • • .1•0 1 . , tu the jury list. When this imperfection of the panel was „,.‘lct before the Lord Chief Justice, ho said it was of no m'quenee. The law prescribed the strict mode in which Taeeial jury panel should be formed in Ireland. n „'s panel had not been formedin that manner, it had ,Y li t been formed according to law, and yet the Chief stice said it was a good - one, at least, it was good *e on e; gh t o try these traversers by. When the forty v-,g't names were drawn, the Government—its bowels e a — „„ r° ,, i ng to give civil equality to the people of Ireland— ml. &jury to be challenged, and that excellent person were I?rnrais struck off nine•• Catholics, of whom eight • it, s , h' a 'pellers, or contributors to the Repeal fund. But unknowPoPtotmedrth„.ere was another Catholic on the list, na mes out o f Now, if they struck nine marning,,.and i.l- e ight there would.be thirty-nine re f t ouse conifer, here were any gentlemen in the odds, they sa n, t with what were called the e lle' aga i nst ° ula gee that, it was thirty-eight-. to: Mr-' ti enimis Remm is hitting on - this Catholic. got him. He dived amongst the 39 .n ames for the one Roman Catholic, not -knowing that hethere, and- be pi c k e d - him out.—(Laughter.) only this wall one ot the most singular coincidences he long uer heard f 4.. „ •He had heard of persons " taking are a and neve r w i nn i ng —(Laughter)--but here one e no , ' at the v e ry fir s t d raw , drawing the pcss e ;` l.°He • -- (Laughter.) • Mr. liemmis must certainly anoth er ver-magnetic fingers.—(Laughter.) This was R h of calamities of the Government. Then the the tr i al Hen. Gentleman s a id h e was most anx i ous to h ave . Metter t c onducted with great mo d erat i on, an d h e wrote • li e was 0 the A ttorney-General for Ireland on that point, whi c h e x _ l( , ) t going, to say anything of certain occurrences • did been mentioned in that House, but the result the it• correspond .to the wish so strongly expressed by 'gilt Hon Gentleman. The 'last misfortune of the C er ament hi e f J was owing to the speech of the Learned It eo n ,. who certainly made a. stronger speech for (It ear: "lon than the Attorney or Solicitor-General.— obt e n ied ll ear, and laughter.) No, though st• conviction f ewip _ in the way this had been obtained might gratify • h) som_range partizans—though it might afford a triumph the e , „ . 7, of their supporters—though it might enable •at woMinprison Mr. O'Connell with the other traversers, ebt e i a t ra n not Produce peace to Ireland, nor would it ' l orry i t ore re- spect for the law.—(Hear, hear.) He was toe s wer _vas admitted on his side of the House that per feelers. be struck off the jury because they were Re •relend :t was admi tted that seven-eighths of the people of uht of t ere Repeaters, and therefore they Must be struck Iv tee list t, r t : t4 Sttid t , upon all occasions like the present. It 4 he: th i her th„ th at a Repealer would fast himself to death ak, er e „ - 17 ( bring in a verdict for conviction ; hut were k , b elv e „ - , ° person s on the other side who would fast theta torii44;knirse appeared Prop er !_st.eath rather than acquit?—(Hear, hear.) The to him to be to strike off known rd ti 3 / 4 ," ~.Oh both sides.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble juti"ecretary for the Colonies, who was not in his a soli e i tor u „ l 7 were struck off - by the Crown Solicitor ty o f r his clients. They all knew what the Itttor a , e mit by an Ya was toward& their clients. It was to y _ _means which the very questionable mo r the law left open to them.—(Hear, I km " - laugh.) The Noble Lord was so '" Jerk 4e ' d °F th e fta , o f t , idea of winning,- that he called the Crown the. "_clerk o f th e course."--- "- segved ono He 'tight Hon. G en tl eman sa id th a t h e off of the Roman Catholics who had been to b e a , • AssZttavit t h, -"sPealer, because, though he swore in pea, -station he was . not a mem b er o f t h e R epea l te r. To ne did not swear that he was not a It „ 'Mt arn,..a.--1 to as -e"rao ti wee r-t'' h i m to be much the same as e ,...0p 0n his told " I saw you in . Pall-mall to-day," N ed told o k ln llEing• an affidavit that he was not there aeZnot fe nce " but you we re i n Russell-square." He asi nf lok ent w" co nfidence i n t h e measures which the Go. te4Passe„pe Wld Propose fo r I re l an d . Th ey rem i n d e d hi m ' tie rch he had lat e ly rea d i n a letter of Crom (l7,, thes e . ~w _ nted to get some l aw re f orms, an d h e th i rur i nst _urn !ions --" There is men ti on i n t h e l as t p ar t jtict of your purpose to do many good ZiZ te kis la s e__,Ptt will not be like the gentleman who n o 3'4'ere tO will, and set down a great - number of men oe ettt nin th7e,?lve benefits from him, and there was Atti e a res of ti ;' latter end." So with regard to those The at t h e I : tvovernm ec t ; 4114,nttes 0,, to do manir they seemed to have "no thei Propo sed ttt r e rld."—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) good things, and set down It h t f r l olei the Pe L ople o Ireland who were to receive e latt er I nert)• but they had • "no sum upon en d."—(llenr, hear, and laughter:) theol4°:hrehniealnhdekLandlord and Tena , ht - Commission as ea 4 h he was never more convinced of it 44;1144. 84 boen rsnment-givilh's 4 ° l : t h th e Gol 7:ra the Right Hon. Baronet at the cordial approbation :a t a l ; on t h bY the ight Hon. Member for p ee , t o h a ,_ e subject. The Right Hon. Baronet ,_ . I °r• th e : a cquired on a sudden a very great re the - *eel 0 -Pirtio ne of ena 4' on e otxasi the Hon. Gentleman. He re th9 said 4 , entle rnan waosia during' the last 'session when • ,lii at he aspeaking Upon some subject, alspe i : s "t 6 :-. ‘ "4 " N‘-ith another Hon. Gentleman. er t , k Intended Gentleman, in one of those stage Sir R. 1 1.? y ou 4 ,..L° heard, said, "It is the first time h k r , c „;!,Etr . ,,:',. Egree with any one."—(Laughter.) Ar n ,r 4 blt_oi tii i t uld . tiot say what you attribute tome. Y beli S ald that, when he used the words, bia e Ri ed its h eye d that t H on they were the exact words used nt ent • tTentlettian Government had de-: f4l l lll *- ell t• of upholding the Irish Church Este . het e l4 rylee,,. l a, non. and Gallant Friend the Member ti,_ou Sind had stated th Wa , e, th at e other - evenin in the de artot 0, but g a m es ' was not tow the fashion to de- I s•bli; -° Godered t atc- ^ bra ta t . hat this declaration on the t t, w as e Maintaining, the Irish Church 44cland It quo to a declaration of war " a great evil, - which they could lI T HE: 4 4 SUN, LONDON, WEDN-EDAY -EVEN: - (31-, - FE:I3RUA 7 R . I."' 21, 1.344. . . - . . ~ . .. not deal with unless by . abating it. He was convinced Whether the p rese nt G overn ment ,had done s o , that there would be no peace in Ireland without the re= he thought there could not be much - doubt moval of the Church Establishment. The Right : Hon. about it. The union had been proposed as' a 1 Gentleman 'opposite said . that they ehould cherish it as remedy for the grievances of Ireland. Had it answered, the apple of their eye) but he , would say, in Scriptural ' that purpose ? And if it had not, was there much Wife language, " If. thine - eye offend thee, pluck it out." culty in considering why it had failed ? Everything —(Cheers and laughter.) That was the mode-in which had been tried in goieennig Ireland by good faith and they should deal -with the Irish. Church. He •weuld justice. The.union had not been accomplished in a man make pace tie this way-that no more bishops and nor to . afford... satisfaction to the people. The deans shoidd be created, and that, upon the death of most eminent patriots of the time at which . the, every Irish bishop, a regiment should, be withdrawn,- union was carried d enoun e e d the measure as having and a battalion upon the death of every dean.—(Much been accomplished by fraud and by profligate, means. ;laughter and cheering.) Theres,vould be then a simul- Ireland had not received her fair share of the bargain---? taneous dithinution in the, army and the Church, which Catholic Emancipation bad not been granted until he had no deubt would contribute much to the' pacifica.: '2O years after the union. It was not conceded until it , tion of Ireland.—(Cheers.) The Hon.' and Learned could no longer be., withheld with safety—emancipation; Solicitor-General, in his speech last night, said that like the union, was, to a great extent, nominal—the value there was a great deal of difference between fundamental' of the Emancipation Act consisted in its being practically laws - .and other laws: That he considered to be a most carried mit. If the . Roman Catholics were not dangerous doctrine. One of the grounds of their con-' 'admitted 'to a full anticipation .in • the privi stitutional security was that there was no limit in leges. and honours which the law conferred, upon . 'changing the laws of the Constitution. They had them, the Emancipation Bill was a dead letter. the power, if they pleased, with the concurrence Both should be - carried out in perfect good faith. of the Aree branches of the Legislature, of turning the In consequence of this Ireland, instead, of being a happy monarchy into a republic.—(Hear.) That was their adjunct to England, had been a constant source of eke great safeguard, and when the nation wished :for a greatest anxiety and trouble to her, and .had been her change they would not be prevented from making it by self in a state of perpetual uneasiness.. It . was most ma any Act of Parliament which the Solicitor-General might terial. considering the period . which had passed by, that consider fundamental. The real gr.einil upon which he they should take a serious review of what were lie com •supported the motion was not owing to any misconduct 'plaints which had been urged by the Trish people, and in _administration on the part of her Majesty's Go - - what were the causes which kept her in that condition, vernment, but because, in spite of the good intentions of and the remedies which they proposed to apply to efifs of the . Government—in spite of their carrying them out such long continnance..lreland had been under the manage fairly, and according to the spirit and principle of the ment of the political party ,who now held, the reins of law,, he saw. a state of things established in Ireland Government for a very king period, and what she was now which this House ought not to sanction ; and his second was the result of their management. They had a short reason was, that he was convinced the measures which exception during the time of, the Whigs—WV • the Government proposed were too trifling to produce Honourable Gentlemen opposite, having this long any benefical effect, because there was "no suns at the experience in ' the treatment of Ireland, „ ought end of them"—(Cheers)--and he considered their de- they . not to have been able to devise some termination of maintaining the protestant Church in Ire- means to remedy the ills of the country? When land was tantamount to a permanent war against the the Whigs were in power, and likely ,to leave office, the Irish people. ' Right Hon. Baronet acknowledged that Ireland would Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said he quite agreed with be the great difficulty with which he'would have to con the Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken, that Hon. Gen- tend. Full time and consideration had been bestowed tlemen opposite had , made no progress in their attack upon the state of Ireland ; and the present Govern Meet upon her Majesty's Government, and he believed that therefore were expected to. be well prepared to legislate his ,opinion would be sympathised in by the count r y in the mann e r w hi c h th e s t a t e o f I re l an d required. - Well, at large.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) It had been his two years had passed, and nothing had been &Me.. lot, sinoe he had -been . in Parliament, sometimes, While in opposition; the Tory party was most active but always ' with reluctance, to vote against ,in their exertions.to frustrate all attempts' on the pait of ker Majesty's Government ; but never did he retnem- the Whigs to ameliorate the condition of Ireland. ',- It , ber to have given a vote more sincerely in their favour had been a' * compleint against, the Whigs that than he would now give in approval.of the fairness and they done so little for Ireland whilst they were .in wisdom with which they bad conducted the recent af- power. NoW he Would Challenge any one to show that fairs in Ireland.---;-(lronical cheers from the Opposition.) they had power to do_ more than what they did. That He did. not -care how long that debate might interrupt their most anxious wish was to act upon the principles the business of the House, for he believed that the longer which the Noble Lord avowed, and on the policy which it continued the stronger would be the. position which the he announced-in his speech, rio one could deny. They Government would occupy in the opinion of this country. had, been taunted because of withdrawing the appropria- ' • , --(Hear, hear from the` Ministerial benches.)The Right tio n clause, but lie would, ask, was it withdrawn a s a. , Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinbergh had alluded matter of choice on the part of the Whigi, or was to the question of the Irish Chuich. As an individual it WithdraWn because they-. - found they were unable he would he content to limit the tinration Of the Irish to Carry it, as they had been"alse unable le carry many Cherch,.te. ,the period when:. Hon. :Gentlemen : en .the other objecte, by the. force of the' Opposition? . During . Other side Of the genie had agreed what they Would do 'that period, "considering what-"hadbeen ,the course pur .Withit.L-(taiiglitir.) Some Honourable Members ie- sued by the Opposition, the Whigs had shown the same tended to transfer it to another party, others were for feeling towards Ireland which they had manifested cutting it in two ; some were for paring it doWn, others during the many years of her sorrow, agitation, and - for cutting it up.—(Laughter.) One Hon. Member pro-. distress. The first reasonable ground for the security posed, that at the demise of every bishop, they should of any country was general confidence in the Govern remove a regiment, and of every dean, a battalion.— inent ; and could the Irish nation feel the slightest con (Laughter.) Onejlon. Gentleman had asked 'her Ma- fidence in the present' Administration? 'The reverse was jesty's Government to look, at the - question at large,, the case. , What .were the taunts w hi c h we r e l ou d est and in order to do so he most cautiously ' against the Whigs when in power, .but that they were avoided entering into any detail himself.—(Hear, hear.) mating too many concessions to the Irish people? The The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, cry of Hon. Gentlemen opposite was that concession stated certain grounds on which he said the Established had reached its utmost limits—(Hear, and cheers). — Church ought not to be rested. It ought riot to be and that no further concessions could 'be granted with.: rested, he said, on quotations from Hansard, from old safety to the interests of th e Established Chutch, o r o f . books, or from Acts of Parliament. He (Mr. S. O'Brien) the English nation. There was one thing which he con -- quite agreed that unless they could 'make out a stronger sidered most ettrordinary, and that was the assertion case for the Established Church in Ireland than could be that the Whig Government had not done all they . ought made from what Roman Catholic Bishops had said, to have done for Ireland, At least two of its most ta they "could not go to sea in such a boat. It was not ac- lented Members had alienated themselves ' from . cording to the spirit of our legislation to exact oaths the - party to which they were Originally attached; from any class of , persons ; and we had no knowledge merely because the then Whig Government -were . of any ecclesiastical discipline by which • Dr. Doyle, or favourable to Ireland. And, unfortuhately for Ire, any other Roman Catholic Bishop, was able in -this land, the only two Members of the late :Whig Achniiiii- - matter to bind his successor.—(Hear, hear, from the' Op- tration, who had been admitted into the present'Ob-' position.) Unless they could put the case of the Church vernment, were those two who had displayed the of Ireland upon higher grounds, they would make ou t a most inveterate hatred against that couritrY. . When the very bad case indeed. The' question' was, what should present Government was first formed, great . anxiety,. they substitute for the Church if they destroyed it, and prevailed to know how the Right Hen. Baronet weeld• could they hope to 'introduce a better s t a t e of things? act towards Ireland ; and what had been 'done The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay) had entered during - the two years he held office; and what' was the. into a leng, historicaltlisquisiiion concerning Ireland, and present state of Ireland ? Why Ireland continues, to he said that for 250 yeers the Church of Ireland had not to be as she had been before, upon the very brink Of a fulfilled its mission. Now he protested strongly' against civil war; and were they to be told after this acknoW the injustice of resting the case of the Irish Church on ledgment, that the Noble Lord was wrong in asking the the period of 250 years; they must go back to the fifth cen- Hodge to.review the 'affairs of that country, and the tury—the introduction of Christianity into that country. policy which had been acted on, and which was likely to Let them look also at the bearing of the middle of the 12th continue with respect to the government of that'country? century upon the destinies of Ireland, when all the ills ----(Hear, and cheers.) It had been said that this motion of Ireland, inherent dissensions, lawless passions, lust of had been brought forward at a wrong time; but in unjust and ecclesiastical tyra nn y, com bi ne d together to. answer to that, he should say that any one who had the , produce, in unhappy union, the bull of Adriani the in- slightest - knowledge of the popular history of. Ireland vasion of Henry, the landing of Stronghow,' end the would acknowlege ' that there never yet was an instance subjugation of Ireland..--(Hear, hear.) He would next when a motion, such as the present, was brought' before speak 'on a subject which he considered had been the House, that it was. not called ill-timed. That was almost untouched by any Hon. Gentleman on that side the common and constant mode in which such motions who bad yet spoken in the course of the debate. He were met. Was Ireland in a state now that allowed them meant' the real, practical, every-day grievances, to ' choose their own time ?—(Heir, hear, and sorrows, and deprivations of the poorer classes cheers.) Were they to wait until the stream had passed of the Irish . people—and in speaking of the poor by? Did they not knoWlreland was only in the same state of Ireland, ho begged to be understood 'as Alluding that she had been for years before, and that there was to the frieze coats—not to the men of broad cloth, not the slightest prospect of a cessation of, those evils ? 2 The first of those evils to which he would call The' time to demand an investigation was when the attention, and which he had witnessed in his part of Ire- 'country was in such a state of agitation as it was now. land—Clare and Limerick—Was the poor-law. This evil 1 The motion was a most constitutional and intelligible consisted in the inequality of the rate as levied upon the one.—(Cheers.) The intent of the motion was ,to ask poor collier and the consequent 'difficulty of collecting this House, and to ask the country, if the policy pursued it. If one half the attention had been paid to the Irish by the _present .Government towards Ireland was up- . poor-law which had been best Owed upon the Arins Bill proved of. He would not .attempt to deny that this —(Cheers from the Opposition)— by Hon. Gentlemen motion implied censure upon the Government. He was on the Opposition side of the House—(Derisive cheers aware that the 'motion would be loat'by a large mejerity, from 'the Ministerial benches)—much good-would hive but Still he felt Sere it was. the . duty of the Noble Lord been effected. The next grievance of - Ireland was the to bring conviction to Ireland, that her wants; and, even state of the medical charities "theee. That was a sub- if in error, her errors, had teen respectfully treated by ject which demanded their most earnest and immediate Parliament, and that the state of the country shoeld not consideration.' The third evil was the progress of the be passed Over in silence, but that the House should r Board of Palk Works . which he was sorry to say had, consider and pronounce an 'opinion upon . the matter. been curtailed; and lastly, the exactions under the name Had they governed Ireland in such a manner as to se of tolls, to which the peasantry were subjected in cure peace?. Was the fault with Ireland or with the bringing their commodities to market, cloSed the list Government 7 If :it. . was her fault,, was the Govern of grievances which the poor of Ireland had to endure ment capable of applying any means to correct the fault? . Those were evils which, from kis own experience, 'he - How long would they require to do so ? What,period knew to press heavily upon' the frieze coats of lieland. of time was supposed to furnish sufficient evidence as to As for the miserable Whigs, the peasantry of Ireland the fitness or unfitness Of. any given course of policy? cared nothing for them. • The only way in which they Could they for one moment believe that past experience (the Whigs) . had 'interested the poor of Ireland, was did not show. the cause which bad produced the present by letting convicts out of prison, when they were in diseontent? Did that course of policy which had so long office. Their Lord Lieutenant had inflicted more mis • failed hitherto, present any prospect of answering better chief on that country than :any Other individual that had for the future ? He apprehended that there was no ever held office there. — (Marked signs of disapprobation _ground whatever for it. The Government said, as all from the Opposition, which were accompanied by groans. persons said„ that the Irish Church, was at the bottent The Marquis of Normanby was sitting at the time on of the unhappiness under which Ireland suffered. Well, the benches appropriated to Members of . the Haase of then why did they not propose a remedy--,some- Lords.) -The conduct of that Vi c e ro y s h owe d t ha t hi s thi ng less than the disease itself ? They had been sole object was to court a ridiculous, ostentatiou s , and trying, various remedies for ; the Irish Church. It had . fleeting popularity.—(Groies from the Opposition.) been allowed to. be' an evil, and if it were allowed to He had never known any man act so badly—so profli- continue how could they expect that remedies addressed gately.-(Leatd cries of" Oh; oh,"" from the Opposition.) to Other matters, which wholly passed . by. the Yes, but the best comment upon the policy of Lord Nor- . Irish Church—how did they expect that peace manby, was the policy' pursued . by his successor Lord would result : from measures that had so long failed It Fortescue. Did he follow his example?—(Loud cries of , With the present condition of Ireland, could .they be led " Question, question.") Hon. Members might cry - cities- to suppose that measures which had hith er to f a iled, tion, hut What was the question ?' The Noble Lord, the 'without any alteration of the circumstances, would be Member for London, might fancy, at the commencement more successful for-the future ? There was no ground of the debate, that he was forwarding the interests of his for this. He said, therefore, that the present Gevern party, but he thought that the' opinions of the Noble meat were called_ upon to state how they proposed to Lord'must 'now be changed—not merely ' from . meet those difficulties. lie, for one, thought that the the ' sentiments expressed by Members on that side union between the two countries was necessary for the of the House, but from the speeches made by his. prosperity of both. ,The Government had declared that awn supporters. The' W hig ranks were.. corn- they were ready for civil war rather than resign that. pletely divided - and broken; they could' unite ,If this was the case lie would ask how long they would upon nothing, and the only question they leaped to agree Iso maintain it ? What 'Period of time did they suppose upon was Ireland ; and if the Tories . were Wined out I would Ireland remain in that condition? What period of office what could be expected frOm a Whig Govern- of ' time did they suppose that the Christian ; in ment ? Where were their' principles? 'Where was habitants of ,Great .Britain would continue such a civil their 'object? He professed he could see none. ! The war ? Ireland said, "Give .us our.due share of influence Anti-Corn-law Leigue—the Repealers—the Radicals— in the Government. Do not. keep the Establishment ,in all these had principles and objects; big You wretched the condition in which it now is, so w h o lly unsu it e d to Whigs4attering and coquetting, and.gaiiing nothing for the object of an Establishment. If you tell us that you yourselves but eontempt— , - , yeu are objects of public deri- , cannot give us this—if you say that there are circum sion.—(Laughter and ironical cheers from the Opposition.) stances in the union which prevent you from granting , Y9u are like certain public characters who survive their us our just demands, Ireland has a right to - demand the rePutations.—(Renewed laughter.) Mr. O'Connell had repeal of ,the union." . The union ought no longer to told thousands of the Irish people that - the British Par- exist than for the, happiness and prosperity of both: 'fitment they could not trust. He , ' (Mr. O'Brien) Ireland said this country had professed to„forni a part, would re-echo that 'sentiment, and if the Hon. nership,--- - -" You .monopolise all the power —you exclude Member for Cork inclined to quote the opinions of so us from all interference in the management of our concerns. humble an individual - as.. himself,' he was at perfect We' call upon you to do us justice—to give us a due liberty to elo So: Mr. O'Connell had told the Irish peo- share . of authority—lD make the partnership a source of pie to trust to Theniselveithat ; sentiment, too, he (Mr, happiness and prosperity to us. You refuse to do this; O'l3rien)echoed. They might destroy the Church—they and say, Rather than dissolve the partnership, you are Might overthrow the institutions of the c ountry—but ready for civil war," He would defy any man to enter, 'they would be followed by a law stronger, wider, and more ,on the contemplation of this subject. and. come to th e enduring than all the - laws.of men—a law which would conclusion that civil war would last long -under such tell the people of Ireland—and every people on th e circumstances. The English nation was distinguished earth, that it was with barons as with individuals, that, for its justice and its religion. What would be the prosperity and happiness could be'conferrad by no law, condition of :England in the eyes, of Europe during tho Happiness Could not 'be - forced. upon the people. ' The 'continuance of a civil war arising out of claims such as' people .of every rank and class must combine to teach those urged by 'lreland. Were.these matters fit to be and practise ordee—to inculcate obedience to the laws, considered? Let them remember that things had °C .- and to give' a high tone to public . feeling. If this happy curred - before from which, the ,Government, of. England union - were effected, happinesswould be achieved, but agi- might derive a useful Jason., The exhibition of the tation, however peaceful, would _leave the nation where power .of resisting the claims of Ireland,. with respect it found it—in discontent and disorder. to the dissolution of the union, was he trusted, very re- Sir THOMAS WILDE wished to call the attention of' the House 'to the real . question before the House, which had be : en obiciired by the risible , 'speech of the Hon: Gentleman wire preceded him. The motion of the Noble Lord was to form aCommittee to consider the state of Ireland. Wh o e ver hid paid any attention to Whit had occurred 'in Ireland lately must know whether such a motion was fitted for the present occasion or not. He did not mean to Eli) , that Ireland presented any new state; but surely Ireland could not be suffered to continue in the same unfortunate condition in which it had been . so long, and it was imperative on the'British Parliament to give their most serious attention to the condition Of that country. Ameng . the complaints of th e I r i s h peop l e was one that the Bri tish Parliament were indifferent to their real complaints and distresies. He thought • the attention that . had been beStowed on the present debate by the Houie generally, and by the Rig ht lion. Gentle man at the head of her Majesty's Government in parti cular, must repel any complaint on this - score. He thought it very wise and proper ihat the House should hear what Hon. Members had to inipart regarding .the condition of Ireland, and what remedies might be sug gested. When they considered the 'character of that country in respect to her soil and resources, and the many eminent and virtuous persons that it produced, it was truly lamentable to reflect on .her present distressed state; it was material to consider how that country could be governed in . a proper manner. It might be said that the character of the people was pecu liar, but it was therefore the more necessary to suit the. Government to their. chMgAt , A oyerrunent .which could' not - do that, was little worthy of support. mote, if not impossible. Bui what was the case y with 'respect to America ?--(hear, hear.) The present Go vernment could not hold a higher tone—they could net more despise their anticipations which related to the dis memberment of, the empire, than the Government did at the time of the American war. Contrary, however, to their expectations- - descending from their high tone and froM their very heavy threatening, America, was lost to this country—lest by the unhappy folly of the Go vernment. of the day who would not take timely warning; and what was now the tone with respect to Ireland ? Why was Catholic Emancipation granted . ? Because they could not withhold it. It was, easy to talk of civil war—but he repeated that civil war would not last long under the sangtien of the English nation. England would proela'rn„and proclaim loudly, against the injus tice of one nation.overrunning and subjugating another on account of that nation insisting upon its ,rights. He did not believe that England would- long endure the re proach of carrying on a war in order to maintain a union which Was inconsistent with the happiness and prospe rity of Ireland. Surely, therefore, when the bovernment itself looked: at the possibility of such a state of things, they should also at the same time contemplate what would be the probable result of such a state of things ? Re therefore called upon the Government most seriously to consider the subject., He thought the Noble Lord had done right in calling upon the country to consider what would, in all probability, be the result of that state of things ihr which the Government had said they were prepared, rather than consent to the union being dis— solved. He did not apprehend that there was any rCal desire on the part of any portion of the Irish people for a - -. dissolution o f th e un i on . If t h e Government was not pre pared to show hoW Ireland could be governed in a state of peace a n d pr os P e ri ty -if" t hey "were not prepared to alter -their policy, then it became most important that the country ,should • consider what • would be the. result of such a state of things.—(llear.) Ile would now re f er to such_ which had been touched upon by gentlemen on - 'both sides of the House, which .wiss, that' the tieople of Ireland did not place coatlenei in the present Geyernment: He -believed that a large proportion of those in Ireland who, were .interested most in the subjects respecting which complaints were niade, did not'entertain Confidence in the present Government. They found that large meetings had been-held in -Ireland which had excited the greatest- alarm. Did the Gover nment 'entertai n alarm at those meetings? • He presumed that they did. 'The MM. and Learned Gentleman who* had been the means , of thoie 'meetings from first to last; had declaredthat he did not. mean 'to break the law. In the other House of Parliament those meetings Were declared to be illegal, and yet what-was the policy . sir the GOverninent with respect to them? Gould any man j imagine why they did not interfere to' stop them ? •It might be asked how were -they to stop them ? Why, how did they st o p t h em at l ast ? Why, h ewou ld ask, did they allow those meetings to continue for nine months ? The menient the • Govertment'issUed their proclamation, that moment the meetings ceased—that moment the individual who had been instrumental in causing those meetings, felt it to be his duty to use the utmost exertion .t 4 repair the fault of the Government, and to Make' up 'for their delay, and to prevent public mischief. The moment the proclamation was issued it was obeyed. What reason had they to suppose that a similar-proclamation issued earli er would not have allayed all the anxiety and alarm that arose from those meetings? Wts it that •they preferretl destroying an individual to preserVing the peace of Ireland?—(Cheers.) 'Was it for the par!. pose of laying a trap - to- catch a political opponent? They were willing to let the spirit of rebellion grow up. for many months. They were willing 'to" permit die, affection to arise, and they made no 'attempt . to arrest its progress. They • had _prepared : theniselves with troops to put down violence when it should break out into open acts, but they had permitted that 'spirit 'of disaffection to spread and increase. Had they done this merely for the purpose of giving their reporters an opportunity of catching heated and inflammotory sen tences that were uttered here and there, and now and then . ? Vas that a 'proper course of policy to ptiraile?: (Hear, hear.) If the GoVerninent had felt that the meetings. which , had 'ltem held in Ireland were incon sistent with the public interest and public safety, they ought to have made an effort to repress them ? What, howeier, did they do ? They permitted the people of Ireland to suppose that: those meetings were unobjec tionable and lawful. - They were not disturbed. '1 hey were permitted to extend and grow, and the people of Ireland were . thuS seduced into the idea that these meet ings were consistent with the law. This was a serious charge against the Government.. It had been laid down • from the Bench that men who had attended the last meeting could betaken as haring adopted all the seta ments promulgated at the other meetings for the pre vious.nine months ?; Thus an innocent man who hap pened tube 'present 'at the lastineeting found himself in the, situation of being charged with the adoption of violent expressiens— expressions which had sub jected . the . parties to a very serious prosecution. It was allowed. upon. all , hands that if Mr.. O'Connell had not exerted himself to preserve the.peace at Um tarf, a crisis would have . arrived, which he could not.ac cuse the Government of Contemplating, and he ; was cer tain that the poor people who crowded there never anticipated.--(Cheers.) The meeting was to take place on Sunday, and' the proclamation was issued at three o'clock on the Seturday.—(Cheers.) Not all the world could convince him that the course taken by the Govern ment was impartial, or that. there was any intention to show that they were disposed to gov ern Ireland im partially.—(Cheers.). Mr.. 'Connell f e lt, and, he would have been wrong if he did not feel, that upon would rest . the .responsibilitY 'if any evil consequences lied ensued.—(Hear, hear, from the-Ministerial benches.) So soon as the Mieisterial proclamation was issued Mr. 'O'COnnell obeYedit, and he did the most difficidt thing -in the world, he compelled a. discontented and irritable multitude to be as patient as he was himself.-.-(Cheers.) There had, been many meetings-, the result ,of which 'was merged in one, which, Might 'have been included in. , one count of the indictment,:—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable the- Secretary, for the Dome Depart, merit had said.. that.. he , did not _stand there t.Z:•"elefend the •Coercion Bill of the late Government. He (Sir T. Wilde) Shoidd. have thought that the Bight .1 - l On. Baronet, having been It party to that, was not, now going to. shrink from the responsibility which at tached to it. Deeply as that Bill had to be lamented, its necessity at the time was undoubted ; and that ne cessity had been mainly created by the Tories them selves. The Whigs having come into power after a long series of. Tory : misgovernment, it took a long time to remedy the wrongs they had inflicted. And he strongly suspected it would be found a much more easy matter to defend the Coercion Bill than those prosecutions— (Cheers.) Such .a law might be called for as a tem porary measure, but it formed no part of, the Constitti tion:—(Hear, hear.) The evil lasted for a time, but the Constitution was not hurt.— (Cheers.) But when they came. to stretch the law,.as the Government had 'done its the present instance, for the destruction :of public liberty, they then inflicts 4 a wound-aye, an incurable wound —upon the Constitution.—(Cheers.) Let them look at the various Bills, Coercion Bills, Arms Bills, and others, which necessity required them to pass from time to time, when the period arrived a t w hi c h t h ey ' cou ld allow them to expire, the evil was at an end, and the general Constitution remained unliurt.---(Cheers.) But this prosecution would remain as a precedent, and when added to the many bad ones which already existed in our history, it would give an example to Ministers to do that which he, sincerely, believed it was far from the wish. of:the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir It. Peel) to at tempt. But the precedent was furnished, and most as.' suredly he (Sir Thos. Wilde) looked upon it as one most inconsistent with -public liberty. If Mr. O'Connell had uttered speeches, published it in his had, -spoken sedition in his writings, orpractised it in _sedition—had 'his conduct —or if he had by any other means excited the people to discontent and disaffection, then, by all ,means, let.th e G overnment i n dict him for it.—(Hear, hetir.). If he had by any illegal means attempted to overawe the Government or disturb the peace and safety of the empire, let him, he repeated, be indicted. He was -amenable to the law for his conduct; but : do , not let them , twist, the. law so •as to make a charge of conspiracy,' and that under • circum stances which might be afterwards used to prevent agitation by even the most legal means.—(Dear, hear.) - citor-G en era l h ad said something last evening a b out the pia Hon oura bl e an d Le arne d Friend the Soli, late Government having, something to de with indict ments as well as the present one. Not such indict ments as that on.which he was - now to comment. He put it_to his Hon. and Learned. Friend whether ; it was was not true that the :forms of indictment; under which Mr. O'Connell had been tried had never come .under the consideration of any one who 'had not lamented it? Throughout Westminster-ball it was detested, and to such cas e :sae the one wider consideration was now never applied i n t hi s country,--( Ch eers ,) Would hi s Hon. and L earned Friend the A ttorne y-G enera l at tempt in Engl an d to indict ' a man, an d ge t a ver di ct against-him, for a speech h e h a d never uttered, or for a pal agraph m a newspaper which he had never seen?— (Loy • d cheers.) t • asked .his LearnedFrietd the plain question whether, inliis long experience , be had ever known that form of indictment even referred to with out being stigmatised in the strongest terms of disap probution?—(Loud cheers.) Whoever attended to the form of that indicttrie ,and followed it .np. b y a con sideration of the law as laid down by the Lord its character. It .charged Chief Justice, would readily be able to see and to ap preciateconspired to . excite disaffection and hatred, and, by means of physical - force, endeavoirred to oir_enl r livee that the traversers Legislature. The laW, as laid doe nby the and d Chief' combined Justice, was, . that if.-persons associated and itmus, then were bined to effect Riegel object by illegal T. Wilde) did (Sir they guilty of a breach of the law. he -did except- to to effect, by their joint efforts, an illegal object, or coin did ~not except to that law, but its application.-(lleac, hear.) Now, be asked, had or had not the people of Ireland a right to meet to discuss theirgrievances and obtain a redress of them? He ,pre sumed the right to meet and di sc uss, .and take measures for redress was - not. questioned ?--(Marks of assent from the Treasury benches.) Why, did they ever hear of a meeting for the discussion of grievances where there . vas not discontent T . Where there was no _discontent what was the object of the meeting? . —(Hear, hear.) Was it the privilege of the' people 'only to meet to excite con tentment or originate affection?—(Cheers and laughter.) They might excite disaffection in a manner, to make it unlawful, but it . 'required great care in a judge when showing what ought to excite and what' ought' not to ex cite discontent.- But the indictment against Mr. O'Con nell' was, in fact, a perfect indictmen t for 7.llgu,treason. In the Of Lord George Gordon, the 'very words in which this indictment was framed Were 'the wards in 'which Lordlftinsfield laid down the law, 'that such M t°. raise discontent -and dis affection, twas high treason; and. this had been.fbllowed by ()Vert' acts. It therefore was a complete and perfect in •dictmett for high treason... But were these traversers the only-persons iri:theempire who had; by their joint and, .b)r over awing the Legislature, to bring the law into con'eurpt ? What had been or-law?—(Cheers.) What was efforts, ffoc t i r, -endeavoured done in reference • to the poor4aw.—law, What answer was to be made by certain Hon:-MeMbers f that house when questioned as to their Conduct and I What of the pa reference to the t p st : p u e eee b b l e h i s h u s l e i ti s e s t i d i d : o b u g y f :: ll ll h o l ie r P r g4 . ll T tOi.}:na:seitbsPlien:cr:?—(sePeatGP-eiprgresall,t:ll:eers:) Let them take.the speeches of cert Si- lion. Members when upon Oastler's speeches and poor-law. leadi papers-let them take t t a ht e r li 'm r'- f 3 ' ng articles—and according to the law as administered to Mr. O'Cdtnell, -there was as clear-a conspirttcy as ever was hatched.— j e te and another: (Cheers.) Look at what bad been written. and said of the slave trade, and of . and on varionashdottscopnutbelnict ; and lie had aright to say ty's lh had right, in order to He a s e t w s e a ue i r d ne s°:- the nelb3; : ea,n.and Englisho of l he a .i r c l il i t a r tn afe e s i • it did 'not consider their that House for a 'repeal' of interest, that it had no sympathy with them, that it did' - n aih o ild t ae g t. i t s ih l f tt e te bpeeo fo bp r t h etv e oe i benefit in the union, to use those arguments, if he believed the union to be mischievous. But if be used those argu ments'he was guilty of this act of co nsp i racy and sedi thin. describing the indictment for conspiring Oslo these several things, the Learned Judge gives this direction—" It is true the indictment sets forth certain . overt acts; but no one of these acts need be proved— the crime consisted in the agreenient, not the acts." Therefore though - net 'one j of these acts should be coded; still the traversers might be guilty of conspiracy. '4l s avi4g by 'this' mode tendered:the meta 'elimparaticely unimportant, he says to the jury " you may infer the agreement from these persons acting in common ; and if you find' a newspaper writing articles' in favour of Mr. O'Connell and reporting his speeches, you may use, that against the newspaper to prove they were conspiring with Mr. O'Connell, and you may use Mr. O'Connell's, . speech, as reported, as evidence of his conspiring with the newspaper." Now, nobody could approve of the lanj guage that had been used by. the Hon. and - Learned Member who was the snbject of the prosecution. No one could approve of the meetings that - had been called together, because it did- not appear that they they were calculated to effect any good bona fide object.—(Hear, hear, 'free' the Mfaisterial benches.) They were un doubtedly dangerous, not from any intention on the part of the lion. and Learned Gentleman, or on the part of the people,,to break the peace ; .but such a number of persons meeting together was so liable to sudden in flarnmetion-:--so likely to be operated on by unexpected causes, that 'they were likely to' endanger the publid peace.;--(Hear, hear, from the Ministeritil benches.) He also much disapproved of the Hon. and Learned Gentle man referring to the old stories of supposed English oppression, for the purpose of leading to the conclusion that England was unfavourable to the Irish, and-that the continuance of the union was not likely, to - be pro ductive'of happiness to Ireland. He disapproved of this language, just as much as he disapproved of the frequent referrences to " Fox's Book' of Martyrs" by those Hon. Gentlemen wh o se t up t h e "N o Popery' cry. One was just as improper as the other, but no one had thought of indicting those Hon. Gentlemen. But what England had to beware of was this—she had to see ,that in cases which might excite disapprobation, the law was not violated or perverted to what might be used, on other occasions,, for a totally different object. Now, an indictment for hOlding a public meeting calculated 'to excite discontent and disaffectiOn was a most dangerous indictment to trust to the hands of the Government in a country so divided by party as Ireland. • It was a form of indictment which imposed on the Government that used it the deepest responsibility for careful watch over the administration of justice. He had referred to that part of the indictment charging the 'traversers with an attempt to overawe the Legislature. In his judgment it .was as great a perversion of the law as could be imagined. lie had already alluded to the indictment against Lord. George Gordon. He was indicted fbr overawing the Legislature. In his case, 20,000 persons assembled in St. George's Fields, there having been riots before that meeting. These !0,000 : persons beset the House of Commons, forced their way into the lobby, and personally threatened the Members, so that it was scarcely possible for them to get access to the House, and they . kept up their threatenings to such a degree that the House could not proceed with its business. For this he was indicted for attempting to overawe the Legislature, for putting them in apprehension of immediate personal violence. But what had they here Numbers of per sons meeting at a distance across the Channel, at a time when Parliament was not sitting—when there was no apprehension, and no possibility of its Members suffering from personal violence. But the Hon. Gentleman said that overawinc , the Legislature meant -- such an exhibi tion of numbers as would lead the Government to sup• pose - that, at a future "day,' by the operation of their :opinion, ,or if they liked by, their - acts, the Legislature. Might think it advisable to pass a certain measure. He would appeal to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite to tell them on what grounds was it that he passed the Eman cipation Bill?—(Loud cheers.) Upoa that express. ground—public opinion. Now, how could they get a great expression of public opinion? Could people send their opinions to a meeting, and leave their bodies at home? He contended that overawing the.. Legislature was causing an apprehension of physical force to be directed against the persons of the Members. The ap prehension of a distant rebellion was not overawing the Legislature. What meeting might they not say was an exhibition of great numbers for the puipose of overawing the T. , egislature ? It had been said that the mere numbees of a meeting made it illegal. Why, for the same reason, they might•.as well say that some races were illegal—that the Queen's coronation was il legal- It was numbers, combined with other, circum stances, such as the object of the meeting, and whether its conduct was calculated to excite alarm in minds rea sonably firm. Look at the meetings they had had in England. What great alteration of any great public grievance was ever obtained without agitation ?—(Hear, hear.) Did Government ever alter that of which the people did not complain? All Goverments were and ought -to be conservative.-0 rear, hear.): ; It was for the. safety of the people that they were so,- therefore they did not alter that with which, the people were contented. But sometimes Governments required. WO much impelling. With all respect to the Bight Hon. Baronet, he thought that he had required too much before he granted Catholic Emancipation, They ought not to wait till rebellion was at their heels before they altered that which ought to be - altered, and if it ought not to be altered, he took it for granted it would not be. The indictment for overawing the Legislature, therefore, on the ground of meetings being held across the Channel at a time when Parliament was not sitting, was not an overawing of the Legislature within the law. The Noble Lord, the Member for London, had defined the origin of the law of conspiracy to be one applied to a private conspiracy to charge others with committing crimes. —(Hear, hear.). The Noble Lord said that tins prosecution was con• ducted' according to the common law of the kingdom. What was that common law ? - He believed that they would find the liberties of England buried in their Courts by this common law.—(Hear, hear.) This re minded him of an anecdote related in Roger North's "Life of Lord Guilford." Seeing that King. James was in the habit of conversing, with, and confiding in,, Judge Jeffries, he represented, to the King that Jeffries was a man of a very violent temper, and very dangerous to confide in, and said that he himself would do all that the King wapted by law if he loft the matter to him.— (Cheers.) All that a bad and profligate Government might desire could be done by the law of indictment.— (Hear.) What had been the course pursued with regard to this indictment ? He could not do better than de scribe it in the language of one of the public journals. —('lho lion. and Learned Gentleman then read a pas sage from the Morning Post, to the effect that making newspaper proprietors responsible for words not spoken by them, and making public speakers responsible for articles not written by them, produced so, confused a charge that it ought not to be brought against any subjects of a free Constitution, and a v er di c t o b ta i ne d under such circumstances would produce no moral effect whatever.—The reading of the , passage was followed by loud cheers.) Such was the character of this indict ment. If the design of the Government was to put down what they called agitation, and to punish the Hon. and Learned Gentleman for illegal acts which he com mitted, it could have been accomplished without such an indictment, by charging each- of the traversers in dividually, and making each responsible for his own acts alone.' But here was the press of the country, which could only exist by giving public infor mation on interesting events, prosecuted for- a,conspi racy, for associating to procure legal objects by illegal means, those illegal means consisting of reporting violent speeches made in the absence of the proprietors of the public Journals in ehich they were reported. The law of conspiracy was grossly wrested in this case, and a bad- precedent was created.—(Cheer&) Here were editors prosecuted for speeches which they never read, and speakers prosecuted •for articles which they never wrote.—(llear.) The law as understood was this, that ' there must be an agreement between the persons charged with conspiracy. Of course they might prove agree ment by a variety of means, and it was not necessary that the agreement should' be actually proved by some person who was present ; for if that were necessary, conspiracy would b e a perfectly safe crime. They might prove it from acts and circumstances. As, for example; if they f oun d , as i n the ' case of the 0. P. riot, persons with the letters 0. P. in their hats going to the theatre, creating a tumult, and interrupting -the per formance, ,it - showed a design from which it might be reasonably inferred that there was a . previous agreement between the parties; but it was a perversion of the law to treat as a proof of conspiracy that parties assembled together at public meetings with a common attempt. They might as well say that it was evidence of conspiracy if the pit of a theatre had simultaneously hissed.—(Cheers.) As he said before, it was not feces •sary to proVe previous agreement. If there were such circumstances attending meetings as that 'persons met in-the same place on successive days with the same em blems, they might infer a common agreement. But no distinction of the kind was made here, for the jury were told, in the first place, in express terms, that no one of the overt acts need be proved. They need not, however, it was said, have proof of their agreement 'and so on, but they might infer that from these very seta ; or they were first told that those acts were not to be proved at' all, but that the whole crime consisted in the agreement, and then they were referred baele again to the acts in evidence of the agree ment: The' indictment was foe endeavouring to excite public discontent and disaffection ; 'no attempt was made to assign the limit within which Irishmen and Englishmen might manifest dissatisfaction, and that which amounted to a legal crime. The iedictment was, in itself, a most dangerous proceeding:—(Hear, hear.) He did not say that its form was new, bathe did say that its application to the facts of the case was perfectly new.— (Hear.) Now lioW had this indictment been prosecuted? e--(Hear, hear, from the' Opposition.) He did arraign the cohduet of this prosecution, - most undoubtedly.- He was not at altdisposed to say anything unkind or ral, or disrespectful in the slightest degree of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ire land •, but he did feel it his duty to urge a most serious .complaint against. the conduct of this prosecution.— (Hear.) Ile said that the Government were implicated —he used the word Government, not as denoting the in dividuals of-whom' it - was cOmposed,'but the Government generally responsible—and hemaintained that they were most seriously implicated.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. O'Con nell, he, averred and stated with the utmost firmness, had no fair triel.—(Great cheering from the Opposition benches.) His Hon. and Learned Friend the Solicitor-, General said, last bight that that was noproper place to discuss how far the verdict was consistent with the evidence—ari observation which he (Sir T. W.) took the liberty' of eheering. He then went on to say—having said it would be very improper to discuss it there—that he defied anybody to get up and say that the verdict was not consistent With the evidence.—(Laughter,) He (Sir. T. -Wilde) had heard some new constitutional doctrines in that House. He was happy to see the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) in his place. •lie .begged to ask, for in lorniation, where the Noble Lord had learned that new constitutional principle, that it was indecent in a lawler to arraign in that House the conduct of the judges ?;-- (Hear, hear.) • He had heard from his Learned Friend the Solicitor-General, that there were Acts of Parlia ment which they had no right to discuss there. With all respect, 'both for the Noble Lord and for his lion. and Learned Friend, he begged to say that a more out rageous or unfounded doctrine he had never heard: Pray, Sir, continued the lion. and Learned Gentleman, what is the first duty of this House ? To watch the administration of justice in this "eountrY. You - had— whe ther you have now in form, I do not know—but you had a Committee of Justice, and I say, with all respect for, the Noble Lord, that it is the especial duty of this 'house, to watch over the conduct of the judges. The 1 public were - deeply interested in the character an d cons duct of the judges. It was of essential importance that those criminals who had misconducted themselves, and Were tried for the crimes which _they had committed, shiltild be able to respect the judges before whom they i • were arraigned.—(Hear, hear.) Th e o bj ect o f a con- Viction was to operate upon the indi v id ua l b ene fi c i a ll y on his,,future conduct, and that could never be done if he had no respect for the judge before whom he was tri e d. —(Hear.) Although he admitted, therefore, that it was exceedingly improper to make indecent remarks with respect to judges, in the spOtlessness of whose cha racter the lower orders—those who are most often brought under their jurisdiction —were so deeply inte rested; yet 'he maintained that, on an occasion like this, when the question was whether the Government had committed a great error in the conduct of a pro . secution, when they had to consider whether that pro secution • had -been fairly conducted; and when the' • Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet talked loudly of the vindication of the dignity of the law, they ought not to have 'their mouths stopped by being told that, if they entered upon the subject, it would be a profanation of the law ?—(Cheeri.). This was not a common case.— (Hear, hear.) Ile hoped that parts of this case would become subjects for specific : inquiry. It was in volved in the greatest suspicion. He -said there was, more than suspicion that unfair play had been' practised.—(Hear, bear.) How was he to know whether he could agree with the statement - of the Noble Lord and his Hon. andLoarned Friend—that the dignity 'of the law had been vindicated?—(Hear, hear.) Was he to take it , for granted nistn their assertion? He had the greatest respect for_ them, but they, would excuse him if, in a matter of that sort, he presumed, though, a lawyer-- (Latighter)to entertain and express an opinion as to the conduct of the judges.. But why;were lawyers to be excleded? ! —(Hear, hear.) Was it because they were supposed to know something -about it ?—(Hear, hear, ,and laughter.) It- was strong language to use to •it 'Member of that House to charge him with indecency in remarking upon the conduct of a judge in the dis charge of his Parliamentary duty. Mr. O'Connell's case mixed itself up - with the public interest—it by no means rested upon an ordinary footing. The good or the. evil, which they had done depended upon the character of the prosecution.- s -(Hear ' hear.) If they had prosecuted Mr: O'Connell, though he might . hare been guilty of some offences; if they , had 'profaned the temple - of justice instead of vindicating its"honour; if they had sent him to trial expressly to be convicted, then he said they had done that, which he was charged:with having done, but done' with infinitely greater effect. They had _de ' stroyed the confidence of the Irish people in the admi nistration of justioe.—(l : lear hear.) The L earne d Judge laid d own the definition of the law of conspiracy, if he (Sir Thomas Wilde) might presume to say so, with perfect confidence, and he stated that he had the concurrence of his brother Judges in the doctrines which he so laid don n. That had nothing whatever to do with that Learned Judge's course in the. summing up of the ease.---(Loud cries of " Hear, hear " from the Opposition.) If he expressed himself strongly on this subject, he had no intention of departing from the respect which was due to that Learned Judge. But he asked if the summing up of the Learned Judge had not rather the characteristics of a speech of counsel than of what it was intended to be. It was deficient in all that belonged to its proper office.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to call the Right Hon. Baronet's attention to the circumstance that Mr. O'Connell's defence consisted in this—at least, one part of his case was—" You charge me with uttering certain expressions with a certain in tent. It is true, you have selected certain passages and sentences . from my speeches, but I call on you to read the whole of those speeches ; and when you read the whole, those particular sentences will be qualified." Now what man's speeches could stand the test of particular seatences extracted here and there ? " Read the whole," said the counsel for the defence ; and accordingly the greater portion of the time ,occupied by the trial was taken up in reading the whole of the speeches. Yet not one sentence of what the counsel for the defence got read, had formed a portion of the Learned Judge's summing -up.--(Hear, hear.) The Learned _Solicitor-General had got the particular passages on which -the Government —and. he did not use the word in an offensive sense, he meant those to whom the con duct of the proSecution was intrusted—the Solicitor-Gene ral had got the particular passages on whiCh the Govern ment relied, selected and printed, and as he read them in reply, the Learned Judge said, " hand them up to me." Up they went, and they were read and summed up to the jury. --(Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) Such parts as were most v i o l ent were thus read without any parts which qualified them, and which formed part of the traversers ' defence.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir T. Wilde) was one of those who labouredunder the infirmity of believing, that the greatest injustice was done to persons charged with any crime or offence, by the accuser having got, in his right of' reply, the last word. Let ever so powerful a speech be made for a prisoner in his defence—let the evidence be ever so fa vourable to his case, yet when the speech in reply comes and after it the Learned Judge's summing up, he must, say that juries —who were not generally composed of persons who were taught to bear in mind and analyse speeches—were almost c.rtain to . have the speech for the defence entirely. obliterated from their minds, and to have quite forgotten it. Those paragraphs, that were used in the course of the prosecu tor's case, were again read, at least a fortnight after the passages which qualified, explained, and softened them down, and gave evidence of the motives with which they had been ettered.—(Hear.) No distinct directions were given marking the boundary oflegitimato agitation. He used the word agitation as a short one to express his meaning. There was no direction to distinguish that, right which could never be too narrowly watched, whe ther in the case of Mr. O'Connell or anybody else. The Government had watched those men for nine months, on a subject upon which they were deeply interested, and placed in a situation of great excitement, and on which their feelings warmed by collision—as the feelings of an Irishman were always excited when he talked of his coantry. Why, let them adopt a similarcourse with even any Honourable Member of that House who spoke in debate, and what would be the consequence 1? He would take, for instance, one of the most amiable Mem bers in the House—the Noble Lord—(the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was supposed to allude to Lord J. Russell)—and would any one dream that the respect and esteem in which he knew his Noble Friend was held out of that House, would be damaged by any accidental expression he might let fall in the heat .of the debate ? Well, then, . those passages which could have modified the parts relied on by the Crown having been read, a whole fortnight elapsed, during which, speeches of Counsel were, delivered for five or six hours a day each, and how was it possible that, when they had been omitted -from the summing up, they could have that effect upon the jury which it was intended, and which they ought to have had ? Then with respect to the summing up, to which he prayed attention. The Rev. Mr. Tierney, one of the traversers, had attended one. of these meetings, and adopted all that had gone before. He bad, also, a little pet meeting of his own.—{hear, hear, &cm Mr. • Sheil.)• Language of similar import to that used on former occasions was used upon this, and yet the strong passages alone were summed up, anti those which would modify their effect were left out. Was that the way in which a judge should vindicate the dignity of the law, and cause- it to have a conciliatory effect upon the minds of the Irish people ? Was it not rather calcu lated- to give, them the idea of, the traversers being per secuted than that they were fairly dealt with ? He was ' - miStaken if much did not remain to be discussed- with respect to this triaL He 'took it for granted that the verdict would not be permitted to stand without being impugned before the proper tribunal. But that was not all. The House had been managed by some dexterity to be led into a certain degree of confusion respecting the composition of the particular jury. He begged to call the attention of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ireland, particularly to this part of of the case. He must say that, with all respect to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he grossly mistook that which was the interest of the Government—he used the word Government for country—respecting the con duct of those prosecutions. First of all there was con siderable ambiguity relating to this part of the subject. The old jury-list was thought very inadequate to fur nish the means of a fair trial. The traversers, there fore, took proper . measures to have the jury-list made up for the year 1844. The House had already. learned that was the custom of certain parish officers to make returns of the persons qualified to act as jurors in the respective districts. They then went to the Hon. and Learned ReCorder of Dublin, and it was his duty to as certain.all those persons that were qualified to serve, and to distinguish between these qualified to serve on common and on special juries. With respect to special juries, some remarks were made by the Right Hon. Ba ronet which certainly struck him (Sir T. Wilde) with surprise, and that was, that the striking 'of a special jury was an advantage to the traversers. 'Why if he were to make such an assertion in West minster Ball they would laugh in his face.—(Cheers.) 'The Right lion. Gentleman said they had done this out of mercy to the defendants—because with a special jury each party struck off by turns, but with the common jury the law officers of the Crown could order as many to stand by as they pleased. They knew very well that if they had a common jury they could not have ordered men to stand by as they pleased.—(Loud cheers.) They knew very well that if with a panel of 72 they had, when the name of John Thomas was called, ordered John Thomas ''to stand aside they would have been asked why,? If they had ordered another man to- stand by they would again be asked why ? How long would you have dared to have gone on in such a course?—(Loud cheers.) They 'dared not to have done it--(Counter cheering) —and it was because they dared not do it that they had struck a special jury.—(Loud cheers.) They struck off the twelve names of a special jury- in a private room. They - must have challenged the common jury men in the open Court.—(Cheers.) They did not try the defendants before a common jury because they were afraid.—(Cheers.) They chose a special jury because they could make sure that there should be no Catholic On it. They could not, avoid that on a com mon j ury . The thing had been dexterously and designedly ma• naged for the purpose of. 'sending these men to convic tion—(Cheers)—by the underlings who had struck and prepared the jury list.—(Hear.) Those lists had been_ settled by the Recorder, who, •as he went through the list, placed a mark against the names for the purpose of distinguishing special jurymen' from common . jurymen. The revision of those lists bust have occasioned the Right Hon. Gentleman considerable anxiety. Never had the Court of Dublin before presented such a scene. The revision was at length completed, and when appli cation was made by the traversers to see the lists they were told that the Right Lion. Gentleman had taken them with him to England. Mr. SHAW—That is not so. It is quite untrue.- moment Thomas what the Sir T. Sight Hon. Gentleman dki tl notman said, doubt f Wilde), in the cause a the people of England, relied upon o b r u t one ee the affidavit which had been produced upon the tria1....... (Loud cheers.) He did not .know whether the Right' lion. Gentleman was unapprised of the nature of that affidavit-(Cheers)--or whether be was absent from Dublin at the time of the trials, but tl. at affidavit had been read in the open Court. Mr. SHAW-Whose affidavit ? Sir THOS. WILDE was surprised at being called upon in that manner to state whose affidavit it was, and when it' had been read. It was the affidavit of the ate torney. for the traversera, and Mr. Mahoney stated that on applyine- at the o ffi ce f or cop i es of the lists as re vised by the Right Hon. Gentleman Mr. SHEIL-The parochial lists. Sir THOS. WILDE-The parochial lists-lists from which the general list was framed-he received for an' ewer that the Right Hon. Gentleman bade gone to Eng- - land and taken the lists with him. Mr. SHAW-I never did. Sir THOS. WILDE did not mean to say that he had -he would only say that it had been sworn to in Court; and not been contradicted. (The libn. and Learned Gentleman searched for some time among his papers, but was unable to find the affidavit.) He feared he had it not with him, but he would state the substance of it. It was the affidavit of Mr. Mahoney read, on the application to quash the proceedings, on the ground that the jury had been .struck from an imperfect list, and in which he stated; that as soon as the revision was over application had been made, on the part of the traversers, at the Right Hon: Gentleman's office for a sight of the jury lists, andthat the answer was, that . the Right Hon. G ent!einanhad gone to England and that he had taken the jury lists, with him.-(Cheers.) Notice had been given to the. traversers to. attend to join' in striking the 48 jurymen, and up to that time they had never seen the jury lists.-(Cheers.) When they went to strike, a .question occurred respecting those lists, as, it appeared that the list from which the 48 had been struck did not. contain the'names of all those persons whom the Right, 'Hots. Gentleman had adjudged as qualified to serve.- ' (Loud cheers.) They had proceeded however to strike • the special jury, under protest, when an application was made tp the Queen's Bench •to quash the panel, on the ground of the incompleteness of the lists. On that occa- sion affidavits . had been made in suppOrt of the application; , and he would read the affidavit of. Mr. Mahoney, which he feared he had mislaid, but which be had since found. - (Hear, hear.) (The Bon. and Learned Gentleman then proceeded to read the affidavit sworn by Mr. Maho- ey. on the occa sion alluded to. The deponent stated that the revision of the lists commenced on the 14th, and was finished on the 23d ; that the Attorney-General had applied to have the 11th December fixed as the day for the trial at.. bar ; that application was then made to postpone the trial on account of the imperfect state of the jury lists i and that eventually an order had been made that the trial should c••mmence on the lath January, and that the jury should be taken from the lists for 1844 ; that when the revision had been finished on the 23d November, the Recorder should have caused the general list *of the proper persons qualified to be drawn out, and shou!d have delivered the list to the Clerk of the Peace, who should,, ha ve co pi e d . t h e same into the jury book, and delivered the same to the Sheriff. The deponent made application to the Clerk of the Peace, at his office, to ascertain if the said books were finally prepared, and was informed that the Recorder was absent in London, and that he had.with him several do cuments necessary for the preparation of the said jurors' list-(Loud cries of "Hear, hear," from th e O ppos i t i on) -and from which, wh en fairly delivered by the Re corder, the Clerk of the Peace made his jurors' book. He was at length informed that the list was not de livered up until the 29th of December ; and on the same day the Clerk of the Peace caused the jurors' book to be delivered to the Sheriff. How was the office of the Clerk of the Peace conducted ?-(Hear, hear.) How was so important an office managed if when, on applica tion to the proper functionary, he was told that the list was not there, but that the Recorder had the list is London?-(Hear.) . Mr. SHAW-Not the list. Sir. T. WILDE-The Right Hon. Gentleman may cavil at the word list, or at any other name s -but that the list-- Mr. SHAW-No. Not the list.-(Cries of " Order.") Sir T. WILDE-Sir, it is named the list, and the hat was absent. . . Mr. SHAW-I repeat what I have already stated.-4 Cries 'of ._" Order, order, " and confusion.) ' Sir T. WILDE-Then I will read from the affidavit again. " Ho (deponent) was informed that the Recorder was absent in London, and had with him several documents necessary for the preparation of the jury list."-( Hear, hear.) Mr. SHAW-The list-(Renewed and vehement cries of " Order, order.") Sir 'l'. WILDE--I tell the Right Hon. Gentleman again he may carp at the word list-let him call it document or paper, or anything else he pleases, the substance is the same.-( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Is there any doubt of it ? Has it not been sworn to by the officer, who say-" The documents necessary for the preparation of the jury list the Recorder had with him in London."-Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Op position.) Of all the gross faults ever committed, there never was one grosser than this. There never was a trial at which it was more important the proceedings should be above suspi cion than this.-(Hear, hear.) It was quite clear that the do cuments had not been in their proper place.- ( Hear.) They were not accessible at the_ proper times to the proper parties. How did that happen? How came those officials to invent so false a statement ?-(Hear, hear.) Who dared to behave so improperly as to say that the Recorder had the list in London when ha had not ?-(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," and ironical cheers from the Opposition.) Why was it that when the Recorder had left all things in order in his office, those per sons who were entitled to inspect them were not allowed to do so, but the public officer made fictitious statements?-( Hear, hear,) How dare they say that the Recorder had the lists in London when he had not ?-( Hear, hear.) Yes, be repeated the question. He would again read from the affidavit :-." When a summons to strike off a special jury bad been served, the de ponent lost no time in applying to the Sheriff for a copy of the special jury panel, and which should have contained the names of all persons properly qualified to serve on the jury ; that the Sheriff declined complying with deponent's application unless with the consent of the counsel for the Crown and the counsel for the traversers." What tight had the Crown to interfere to prevent the traversers from see.ng the docu,i.ent ?-( Hear, hear.) Wh) should the public officer interfere with the Crown, or why should the Crown interfere to prevent the tra versers from obtain;ng their right ?-( Hear. )- Mr. SHAW-They had no right.-(Order.) Sir T. WILDE-Sir, I submit that they had a right_ (Hear, hear.) As British subjects about to be put upon their trial, they had a right to see it. Mr. SHAW-No. Sir T. WILDE-I won't pledge myself to it, but I believe they had a right. Mr. SHAW-Certainly not.-(Loud cries of " Order.") Sir T. WILDE-I believe a recent Act of Parliament gives that right. Mr. SHAW-Decidedly not.-(Renewed cries of " Order," and confusion.) Sir T. WILDE repeated his impression, and proceeded to say that if the documents were public, why were they not to be seen ?-( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman, even if the law were all his own way, would surely not say that the subject bad not a right to see the jury list, which bad been made out according to the Recorder's adjudication. What Hon. Member would refuse it, or say it ought to be refused?- (.Hear, hear.) What honourable or honest motive could there be for the refusal ?- ( Hear, hear.) What security could there be far the independent discharge of their duty as publicrofficera, if they required the sanction of the public officers In order to do their duty? Every step in this trial presented exactly the same features.-( Hear ; bear.) The deponent applied to Mr. Kemsnis for his consent, which he declined to give ; and that refusal was followed by to much irregularity-such palpable irregularity-as not to leave any character for fairness or impartiality in the proceedings. The deponent next -stated that he went to the office of Mr. Walter Bourne, for the purpose of striking a jury, and Mr. Whiteside applied for the traversers to have a postponement, on the ground that they had no opportunity of examining the jury list, and that they were therefore unprepared to enter upon the matter at the time. The adjournment was agreed to by Mr. Brewster until both parties could get a copy of the jury list from the Sheriff, and the 3d of January was fixed. On examining the list on that day, it was found that the names of many qualified persons had been omitted from the special jury list, who had been admitted by the Recorder at his revi sion ;•and the deponent, in cempany with one of the traversers, went again to the office of the said Walter Bonnie, and pro tested against any proceeding respecting striking a jury, on the ground that there had been a gross suppression of the names of persons qualified te be placed opt,' the jury. and the deponent was convinced that a wilful and cor rupt suppression bad taken place." This was a portion of the affidavit of the traversers' attorney before the special jury was struck, stating that there had been corrupt and wilful omis sions of certain names. Now, forsooth, the Crown, to be sure, was roost anxious to have a fair jury list made out l-(Loud langhter.) He would ask, judging from the reports of what had taken place in the Court, if ever any human being had ever observed a stronger affidavit ? He knew something of the law, and he would say that no common case, such as the Noble Lord thought would furnish a rule of precedent for an at torney, was applicable to the present case. Why, if it bad been a common action for 51. in one of the minor courts, if the attorney on either side made an affidavit, stating that there had been corrupt practices in striking the jury, the Court would at once put off the trial.-(Loud cheers.) But there being a great Slate prosecution to vindi cate the dignity of the law-( Hear, hear)-a trial which was to produce a great moral effect, an affidavit was put in by the traversers agent imputing corruption to the mode in wLit#l the jury had been constituted, whilst the Crown never made the slightest inquiry into the charge. He thought this course was likely to lower the respect and confidence of the public in the fair and impartial administration of justice in any case, but how much the more so was it the case the present instance ?-( Hear, hear, and cheers.) He thought it was Most essential that the Crown should have postponed striking the special jury until the list had been made correct according to the adjudication of the Recorder, but the person acting for the Crown refu,ed to allow this. He felt con fident that no fair attorney, of ever such low practice, would be guilty of such a course, -(Cheers, and laughter.) But when-it was done by the law officers of the Crown, he should ask the Right Hon. - Baronet opposite, was the Govern ' anent a party to those foul transactions ? He cared nothing about the distinction which was attempted to be drawn between the thief and the receiver. You (said• the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman, pointing to the Ministerial benches) have availed yourselves of this disrepinable transaction.-. (Tremendous cheering.) Was the majesty of the law vindi cated .by ta m p er i ng wit h t h e j ury list.-(Hear, hear.) He should ask why take advantage of this irregularity and error ?- (Cheers.) If such an instance were to occur in Westminster, would my Hon. and Learned Friend opposite, the Attorney- General for -England, take advantage of it ?-( Hear, bear, and cheers.) What. would have been his conduct? Let West minster Hall answer that question.-(Cheers.) It would have been that of an honourable officer of the Crow% vindi cating its dignity, and who remembered that no verdict in the ease of a Government prosecution could produce any Ltr.oet except the tribunal was beyond suspicisn -(Cheers.) h ‘ e vny -his Hon and Learned Friend in a trial last week at torney for the defendant complaiird of t. ap peared on behalf of the Crown tp recover re someonce applied to the proceedings, and his Right Hon. Frien d ) es a The same straight forwardJtdge to put off the ti lat.- g e most a bene a d al, ewitfeesheent"ihne ttt ficial results arose from it, by the p peopl e they got juatic,e.- for they were satisfied „ obey ing the law, and Learned Gentleman then proceeded (Cheers.) course had been pursu(ineeeon.aele:es, a pe nd et t in h the fo/lowing effect t-Several gentlemen whose names, t ete entitled to have their names upon the jury list, were in to read an e xTr h a e ct il f o r n o . mthe affidavit of the traversers agent attendance at the office of Mr. Bourne to prove the fact of their claim not being allowed, and he refused to hear their evidence, and innead drew the forty •eight names, when the agent tutored his protest against the course. At the end of the affidavit there appeared the names of fifteen jurors who had been adjudicated upon hy the Recorder as to