The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-21 00:00:00

e. - , ieripti bVuon a e e titnber . uit ual to the Baltic timber, is not w e ll f o u n d e d ; it ma y h a d b een taken off t4e foreign, produce, we should not have had the immense - - q q wi e 1 , And might be brought by a little better manufacture to hold Upon e Par quahtity of inferior tiinbet pbtired ill Upon ug from the North of America ; and b t l'Corway or Swedish t i m b er; b ut certa i n l y not w i th e i ther Memel Riga, or perhaps the thing would have required eery little adjitstmetit, (Mit tii the ekeessiVe antzic. I r e f er to t h e A merican red pine : with resp ec t t o th e yellow pine from advant age the co l on i es possessed in the t o t a l exem pti on f rom dutie s , and in peace the colonies, it certainly will net bear competition with a n y o f th e ti m b er we get freight s , th e y h ave p o ured in quantities o f goo d s so muc h b e y o nd the real demand f rom the nort h of Europe, and as long as it is brought in, in any quantities of im- as to have overset the market altogether. I' rt atice, it must be sold at a comparatively less price. . You are of opinion that 13s. Bd. the amount of the temporary duty either taken off After such a reduction of duties, to the extent of 30s• had taken place, would the Baltic timber, or imposed upon the American timber, would be rather beneficial and not still remain a very considerable difference in the &hies between the one than o th er wi se to the trade? I consider decidedly so, that it would be a very tt , l :e other ? Certainly, there would remain a difference of 355. a load. great advantage to the trade. tire-ukryou conceive the 355. a load it but a sufficient protection to the Ame r i can Supposing that was increased to 20S. What . effect Would it then produce? If it tier , r e f I certainly do not Om:Mader it a, sufficient protecting duty, looking at the * er e increased to WS& I cOneeiie the intortatitth Of pine to titis market, partied ue ence in the qualities of the wood brought in. indeed the inferior pine froth America, would be reduced to a iier sniall compass i You found you give any sufficient grounds to the hotthnittee, for the reasons on which 4 Aound your opinion, as to the inferiority, from want of durability or other causes, Stipposihg it was 15s? I think ft might bear 15s. Without any other than a had theof American yellow pine ? It appears to tae, from ahe experience that I haVe ivholesothe redtiction of time qoantity, of that deacriPtion of tsinber which comes in. !W.that timber particularly, that it is not ah article Which *ill stand in compe- To what extent do you thi n k the imposition o f a dink df 20S. or the adjustment on of the eXistift with the timber from the north of Eiia . &, in point of durability or strength, of a duty between the Baltic a nd the American, making a difference g to any respect ; there is a total abseifee of turpentine, or any thing like a resisting duties to that amount, would affect the import to this country from America? I quality in it, to prevent the w et or damp, or other causes, from rotting it ;it is soft d o no t thi n k th a t 20 s . a l oa d wou ld cons id era bly affect the importation to the western lagand porous; there is no strength of fibre; nothing in fact, to make it fit for bear- ports ; to London and the northern ports I conce i ve it would cut off two-thirds of a heavy weight, or for durability for a number of years ; for some . particular the importatien; that observation would apply m ore particularly to the yellow pine ; v sn u .s r rst's ; 'for light work, any thing of moulding or pieture-frames, or piano-forte- Ido not think it would go to that extent in the red pine timber. ",!ng, it is valuab'e beyond any other wood, from the absence of that strength Explain the diff ere nce you have . stated, i v ith re f ere h c e to the different ports ? which is essential for other purposes. [Atnericari] I consider the difference afreiolit between London and Liverpool and the western `ghatextent of ae. mut) , do you Conceive might be levied Oct Bettie timber, so at pa r ts gen e ra lly about ss. a load against the northern ports of the island, and of to give the Americans still the advantage oft his market f or th e reel pin e ? I think ss. a ' load in favour of a Voyage front the colonies to the western ports, making . .in th at , way it might bear a duty of twenty shillings per load; but perhaps lam a total of difference as between the western and the northern ports of 10s. m 'Peouslng rather hastily on that subject. f avour o f the colon i es, aga i nst t h e nort h o f E urope. Is there a l arge stock of American timber now on hand? Yes, there is a very In point of fact, can you state to the committee what the current freights were co nsiderable stock. during the last year, from the lower ports of the Baltic to London ? The freight What proportion do you conceive the stock bears to the importation of last from Alemel, generally, was from 20s. to a guinea, to London. year ? I have a general idea of what our stock is, and what the importation was 'Do you know what was the current freight from Memel and Dantzic to Liver the last year; I consider, from some little attention I have paid to it lately, that pool, during the same period 7-I do not. our stock of American timber is about thirty thousand loads. ' Btate what was the current freight of timber during the last year, from the lower ~o p n (t i m you know w h at t h e importation was? The importation into the port of ports of the North American colonies, that is, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, guess. - t• on about fift y t h ousand loads of timber; it must be of Course a Very rough to London? From two guineas to 455. .; the proporti on o f th e re d t o y e llOW piri e w hi c h h as been imported can C n a o n t. onto you . 1 . u know you state what was the freight from those ports to Liverpool? No, l propo ' rt ;s_ port ? I should guess something like one-sixth ; that the red bore the Then, on what facts do you found your opinion, that such a difference as you if an or about one-sixth to the yellow: have stated, exists ? Upon a general knowledge that a voyage from Memel to place ill alteration, to the exwilt of fifteen shillings ty shillings, were to take London or a voyage from Memel to Liverpool or the western ports, is generally present the relative duties upon Baltic and lean Arne timber from what exists at considered about one-fourth as much more. tak e i ' w hat, in your opinion, ought to be the alteration of duties which should According to the mode in which the duties on deals are at present levied, is it Arn el Pi lee „ ti pou Norway timber to Wog it upo n a s i m il ar comp e titi on with the not much more advantageous to the importer to bring in deals of large lengths than that can umber ? I really am h o t a ware th a t any thin g particular is required, in short lengths, and how, in your opinion, ought the duties on deals to be regulated same , ; that the Norway timber and the red 'pine would sell at nearly the so as to equalize that different e? It certainly is the interest of the merchant to th e th.hva'uei and AS Norway is nearer to us than the other ports in the Baltic, and bring his deals in of the largest possible dimensions, and from the Baltic anti from that an g er might be brought here at a less price on that account, lam not aware the White Sea they are enabled to send deals which bear proportionably a much less eertai thing is necessary to give them a particular advantage in that respect; it is duty than from Norway and Sweden ; but as that advantage is counteracted, in a w i t , T 1 that the Norway timber, from the smallness of its growth, cannot compete great measure, by the lengths of the voyage, lam not aware that the duties press 1,_:: that from the Baltic, and th• refore does not _stand on a fair footing, but per- so unequally upon any country as to require much of alteration in that respect. "do,' . wit h time red pine it would if the duties were equalized. Can you state what proportion of the ships that are employed in the timber trade N, 0 .7 n en you speak of the fair competition of the two different kinds of timber, do with the north of Europe make one voyage, two voyages, or three voyages in the country; Mean that the American 'timber should enjoy the same consumption in this season ? To Archangel or the White Sea of course one voyage only can be made; i nty n trY; that it does at present? Certainly not it appears to me, that it is forced to Petersburg sometimes two ; to Memel, Riga or Dantzic, three voyages; it is a hri iseritninately into uses for which it is by no means fit, that the lowness of the rare instance to make four; from Norway I have known a ship make six, but four i c ,.. e .. e s,induce s the consumer in many instances to use it without his principal being voyages is the outside that they can in general make. a g ' i ; u 7 a ,a ut t V au w t i i t t h y lt ; and that we shall find in the building o f a grea t ma n y houses, Can you at all, by any conjecture, state what proportion of the import takes of timber that will rot and require to be replaced. place in those that make one, in those that make two, and in those that make three di % flat reduction do you contemplate in the consumption of American timber, at a voyages ? As the trade is at present regulated, the bulk of the importations cer that that of price between the two kinds of timber of 455. ? I take it for granted, tainly comes from Norway, Sweden, and Memel ; the other at present is but small, tit). _ the American timber is now used for about two-thirds of the whole consump- so that there is no doubt the supply is brought chiefly in vessels which make from . t ,,': . 1 and if this reduction were to take place, I should think it would fall to one- thoe to four voyages in the year. one third of u the whole consumption. Do you know how many voyages are made by vessels going to the lower ports of ° think that it would fall to one-third of the consumption of the whole at a America? Where they are altogether in that trade, I believe two can be made. continued.. difference in the price of 455.? Yes, of course; lam speaking of this To Canada? To Quebec sometimes more,, but not very frequently; I have port to the westward, there are advantages to time colonies. known ships make two voyages in the year, but it is running it very late. is the ii happen to know the description of persons by whom time American timber Are you acquainted with the ships that go from the western coast? lam but th e i i e , ..y purchased ? It is purchased indiscriminately by all who use timber; but little acquainted with the trade from thewestern coast. not - r '-t-rate carpenters and builders are very averse to using it, and I believe do What is the statement you now hold in your hand? A statement of the present Do se it in buildings of any consequence. value and charges upon deals from different ports of Europe and America, showing ~.. you know the purposes to which it is generally applied ? It is applied in what is left to the shipper of each article in loads for his goods. qo,,ty.instances indiscriminately for all buildings. [And it was read as follows :] t he carpenter you mean that it is applied to superior buildings? No, I think not, where ' ..F.aerpenter or builder considers his credit. 't c 4----- , • b li .:t_i? n the general application of it is to houses of an inferior description, as far as F-7 111. 1 i , 9 4 us uclings are concerned? Certainly. Pi s, all State.. to what other purposes, independant of building, it is used? It is used to I P 'i. , ' :0 , 4 is.tite other 'purposes of timber, shelves, boards, packing cases, for any thing of • • . tri ' ' . ...... • " ide work-. Ido not consider but that it is as good as other, except for floors ; ts , It preo... WI not do for floors, it is so soft; a boot upon it would make an impression. ca i*' n r i p tic Z • V ',.,5 55. r. , F.,_, s. , ~,1 .-d td Rut„ for inside purposes, independent of boards, you consider it as good as •-•- (~ es ta ,-.77 0. r.,.. ~.., Cll 'h4er ? YM ti n , `:: ?„,, '6i e: 8 i-,1, 3 ''' ~ a , s 2 .:' g , 0 H B-- - a ra., o . Cr • "-. No' trß , g ' i.l . ga 1 5 it not applied to musical instruments? Yes. 0 ./).-. cr, =• , • 0 .• .5; 9 ; 4 ,4 ti .. ~."'V, tf ,-. da l cf:al x t 4 n t d to every thing which requires a great surface, and a freedom from knots? Yes. sr e 5, 5 ' em es '" any oththee two last mentioned purposes it is preferred, is it not? It is superior to El 1 7' r kr those purposes. '' ~......, co The n f o 2, . . ...... . 12. . . . R p er r those purposes it would be preferred at an equal price? No doubt. 8 som e P ac king cases, anti other inferior purposes, it is as good as the Baltic? For < as Generaing cases it is ; but not where much of strength is wanted. •• • ...... • . • • • • . ta hor ; •lY speaking, for the packing cases it would answer? Generally speaking, -- ------- - i : -1 1 4re it "es not hold the nails. I should think two-thirds of the packing cas es ~.., -.- ... ..:. .. .- .... ,-• s-. •-•- .. tz t.:: 14 1Z tsn t. It. k• ..,) t, t 0 ts":. Ito t.: - .+ 10 made out of other wood, and not American. coo coccoo o co co cz C o r: l o r e You at all acquainted with the proportion of timber imported into the port ..; ' t ndon that is used for packing cases ? No, I have no idea. •• • ...... . • • • • • < ~.1 a s th ° you think, that for those inferior purposes, for which it is nearly as good , tri - ~.. st 4 1141 e t .l 3 altic timber, it requires a difference in price of 455. to preserve a con- i',“::"1 7 5 t.L . GGG - tat.'s Z".l 71m mow ~. vtl tt front I " ? It is to be considered, for all those purposes, the most inferior. Wood sc ,'*> rp' . . tt . ' t-t' Z:s" ells, ll>" '" '" .rs ' '-' * is" Ps" e'r , ' bet, the Psaltic has generally been used, and therefore there is not the difference room neorporom rt , . (I 3 th e I , l l . the price of them and those prices I have been mentioning; there is not ti 1" ,iilative difference. • nis i n e Baltic timber to which you allude is subject to the same duties as the other, . . es. Z t not ? It . co co c. 3 co c.o co to to to to CA :A caw CA tri 4 s . is ; but for packing cases, deals are more generally used. P 4, 4.1 stating the prices, do you make a distinction between the price of one tie- P . Fp - p - rprpP P PP p' S' . o . Pay I , : i l °n of timber and another? No, I take Memel timber; but in looking at the , . 0 • 9 4 t 'e2 a n ,g cases, deals are more properly the article taken into consideration. • • • • • Z 8 V' 5 N • • • ..... • Ili n e difference of forty-five shillings necessary to preserve a consumption for scs ta. . s, tl ia ' ll ' ferior purposes to the American timber ? The thing bears more upon deals ...., 1.... 1.4 tO O . Z I. a u Pon timbers ;we have many articles of deals which come to market nearly as to to ::-.. Pm ..., to •-• co - ,-- s.e. , co co to t 0 0 CI • P m-i 11 14 t l'e American deals ;at the present time we have white deals from Riga, P . p - p - P - p• p . P . p . P . p . P . p p,p . Pt a ttar, ael l in the market at 41. 10s. 6d. per load, and the American deals will Nose 1, s s , is es,. to so t.a ta 10 tong tO tso ~... g .--00000 0 •-•0 ....11)-• I- , .- ti o a l 'N , : e ll e w ere understood to say that to preserve a fair circulation in the market I 1 - -- s. = :se ei F .., a ,.'lva tit u . t ime American and Baltic wood, it was necessary that there should be an oce est so to CP cc c C., ....5 0 0 'F ‘F .t' ql...ge on the side of the American timber of forty-five shillings ; were you cor i , aa ' t '4 l . u plerstooti ? Perfectly correctly. co cc cc cc co I cc cc co co co t:7O F . " "1 .2 ' t .,,, ° ssi ii l .e °se inferior purposes, is it necessary there should be that difference of forty- 'gel n 1 ,,,(: , 1 );,, i gs, to preserve the consumption to the American timber ? lam still fully -1.:„ C., ,-• 0 `.= to C.O .--. cc CC 0 L .:- .4. r" , ),7 ...c 1 ,; 1 (14,:. that that is necessary, because the bulk of the timber after all is used in Z. Z.; : • :,1 •=- - i7: s c - c' cs 7e , 1 - "c , ' ico -1 c., - , to • ( 5 .... '1 44 : speaking of the timber, the opinion I have given as to the difference in -s:I osIl•II ss Icm II I • A. 1". Co t.4.,` ..., r k .' t ate Iv T , to timber ; the duty upon deals bears heavier than it does upon timber. _ t,'"'ary q at you conceive to he the protecting difference of price that would be 8 ' 4. l °Pe h l llon deals ? The prices vary so much of the deals from the north of esmsso 4s.c.easce4s,s. es ss .m.,. - es ca :-. c - ) g t 7) ~, ;2, Fi t t gi f ‘v i .: ll4l tie ' t a - 1, 4 I can only give it as an average price ; the average difference 1 think , "m;sc;') .= ',---- -o s cc oo I ' - cZ ----: :-' • '-' 2 ' tri cr4 8 7 , r a , the ho out 25 per cent of American deals below the average price of deals Ico a, ll' olcal to I I C I E .4 , ? :÷q a ~,,,..nat 6 uof Europe. , 11 ),,what -., a quarter ? Yes, if the one should be at 201. the other should be at 151. o 'i• 10 3 the selling price now ? Of the one about 181. and the other about ... • is "...*....sli t° ts. e..e = ' est re ts ' 4 -4 ' t t 4 "i . D 'E.;. A• ' - 4 cr.3 c " ' ' 22 0" bu rth :i t ,' bot then it is to be taken into consideration that we have deals from the II I ct cc .4 cj, . 4 . , - , 7 . : . , :..... 1 1 1 1 1 , 7,1 g 'w ile .e.ur0...._ , re which sell as low as 151. 0, ari l taken You speak of 181. and 131. 10s. do you speak of the same measure ? I 111 tsc,4IIII co II II I P. s t z 9 D s up g the Petersburg standard. in Pr' I :, ° , 3i ng the standard Petersburg deals to sell for .201. you think the difference •-• s- .-• co ss. co so to ss co so co - 1 , 0 lc' . 7.. c .., 4.. CP CO -41 , .: 0: c.O .P.-. 4 ofe. co ,-••-•• CO 40 '. 1- 3 5 goird, le ,`„ between time American deals and the Baltic deals should be bl. ? Yes, I el b o tu'e .e would be that difference in the estimation of the buyers as to quality. •ti co c 7, isa 't - ts . ce co ',sr 0.7 .7. cc to oc? .1:: ° ,,1 g ..: ...I `1 0 5 the l conceive, that for those inferior purposes which have been alluded to, Cmcs mmtsat , smce so mos we I '' to 1 l'oras o , e lOO of deals is necessary to preserve the consumption for those inferior are Prof to American timber? I conceive that the deals from the north of Europe •-.-. s- - .V. o - 5 co co co cs t.: CO tsO•st CV W... 0 0 4: :,, 0 7 -- ri_ -.., lil e icierarierred, and generally supply the better uses for which deals are required; l her e f er s _ from. North America will still only fill the lower and inferior purposes, _. _ _. --_ _ __ ..- ~.1 -.1 co co pr.d. C 5 •-• 00 0. ...4 - 0 .--, 0 • '' '-C a1 1p)...s e, if the American deals did not supply the market, we should have, I ,- - CMC't 1ND004 ,, ...1 C": 4....4 , 47 ,, C1 F . " 9 n in %,!,";., an inferior description brought from the Baltic, which would supply it ; g-. b ri _ °I h there would be, perhaps, nearly as much difference as there is between the 5:51 i ve of the best Baltic deals which we import, and that of the American which we -11 'Port, I;+ • 1 1 . . - . 4 . Cr , C 0 Pl. Cr .4. C. 7, Ct C., 4. , CIT CI S , t ' t he - * c.) G I C"' cs Ico cc t; s's t's , r2 < , It cs es La acri__.question referred to inferior purposes, and what the committee wish to ,-, ': =l ,' a consumption is, whether that amount of difference is necessary still to continue appii_as.mption of American wood for those inferior purposes to which it is now :.- ..s. ;cs --.1 cc F. s-1 co sz Icocto me P- t' '' ' ' n, ' el ,' Ine? Ido think so. .... es , ,_,,-,.. I -e---I I I - .=•I '' '' . l p ..., (T.' 4.r 0 .... lg ti on oi your general knowled of the timber trade, do you know what propor h of the consumption of timber • . applied .LaVe stated , ms to the inferior purposes that you „.., F... c - a • Cji ', 7 VC ,--' 11 , ' TO Ce ....." 6 ". C . : IN:) ZL ..... 1 ,4 L „,,. I cangive but a very inadequate idea of that ; I should conceive ...., e.. P..., r '-. 'oout - ••-s co co -co C., CP C., CO 0 CO I CV tND - . 0 r,. one-third of the tviint.-_,”,---, - ,--- '• ' n t t you know the proportion of the red t o yellow pine which has been imported pr : this port ? I should ff orti- or about one-sixth g to the yel low.uess something - like one-sixth ;that the red bore The P d'e in an alte ration, to the extent of fifteen shillin gs or t wen ty shillings, were to take the relative duties upon Baltic and American timber from what exists at present, w take plate u hat, in your opinion, ought to be uponite of duties which should A meri Pon Norway timber to brlng it a similar competition with the that rees pe an e t t inlber ? I really atti hot aware that any thing particular is required, in same th a n! Norway . timber and the red - pine would sell at nearly the the timbe7ms i t at Norway is nearer to us than the other ports in the Baltic, and h at n ----gnt be brought here at a less - price on that account, I am not aware t ! T . thta ii n i y tiling is necessary to give them a particular advantage in that respect ; it is that the Norway timber, from the smallness of its growth, cannot compete that from the Baltic, and th• refore does not stand on a fair footing, but per %is with the red pine it would if the d u ti es were equalized. When you speak of the fair competition of the two different kinds of timber, do nu mean that th e A mer i can 'timber should enjoy the same consumption in this °u . n trY, that it does at present? Certainly not ;it appears to me, that it is forced riindiscriminately, into Uses for which it is by no means fit, that the lowness of the e ea induces the consumer in many instances to use it without his principal being acquainted with it ; and that we shall find in the building of a great many houses, tat quantit— y of timber that will rot and require to be replaced. dia . 'hat reduction do you contemplate in the consumption of American timber, at a thaterc of price between the two kinds of timber of 455. ? I take it for granted, t ; tbe American timber is now used for about two-thirds of the whole consump t_°n i and if this reduction were to take place, I should think it would fall to one curd of the whole consumption. You think that it would fall to one-third of the consumption of the whole at a con tinued diff erence i n the price of 455.? Yes, of course; lam speaking of this Por i " ) to the westward, there are advantages to the colonies. i s r . ) , : y n o u happen to know the description of persons by whom the American timber not-"'enY purchased ? It is purchased indiscriminately by all who use timber ; but e irst-rate carpenters and builders are very averse to using it, and I believe do 'use it in buildings of any consequence. 'Li u_ you know the purposes to which it is generally applied ? It is applied in mlany instances indiscriminately for all buildings. L t d you mean t h at it is applied to superior buildings? No, I think not, where t he carpenter or builder considers his credit. b. u . l.l ?en the genera l app li cation of it is to houses of an inferior description, as far as ddings are concerned? Certainly. !lithe other 'purposes of timber, shelves, boards, packing cas e s, for any thing of rl side woe-. I do n o t cons id er b u t th at i t i s as good as other, except for floors ; it W ts ould not do for floors, it is so soft ; a bo o t u p on it wou ld ma k e an i mpress i on. Ut for insid e purposes, independant of boards, you cons id er it as goo d as s ' t ier ? Yes. Is it not applied to musical instruments? Yes. And to every thing which requires a great surface; and a freedom from knots? . Yes. o an gt the two last mentioned purposes it is preferred, is it not? It is superior t Y °tb er fcr those purposes. Fain for those purposes it would be preferred at an equal price? No doubt. some Packin g cases, and other inferior purposes, it is as good as the Baltic? For a.:_ packing cases it is ; but not where much of strength is wanted. tirenerall aot Y speaking, for tbe packing cases it would answer ? Generally speaking, 4 e t" i oes not hold th e na il s . I s h ou ld thi n k t wo -thi r d s o f th e p ac ki ng cas es r m ade out of other wood, and not American. of te you a t a ll acqua i nted with the proportion of timber imported into the port to ondon that is used for packing cases ? No, I have no idea. a s th ° you think, th at f or t h ose i n f er i or purposes, f or w hi c h i t i s near l y as goo d : am e t B altic timber, it requires a difference in price of 455. to preserve a c,on troe,Ptl,7l? It is to be considered, for all those purposes, the most inferior. 11 ood het; the P. , altic has generally been used, and therefore there is not the difference th -e el'. the price of them and those prices I have been mentioning; there is not e Nlative difference. is i t - e Baltic timber to which you allude is subject to the same duties as the other, not ? It is ; b u t f or pac ki ng eases , d ea l s are more genera ll y used.aerl s tating th e p r i ces , d o y ou ma k e a di st i nct i on b etween t h e price o f one tie paeriun of ti m b er an d another ? No, I take Memel timber ; but in looking at the L in g eases, deals are more properly the article taken into consideration. 117 .. t ,he difference of f or t y -fi ve shillings necessary to preserve a consumption for th an inferior purposes to the American timber ? The thing bears more upon deals low tt Pon timbers ; we h ave many ar ti c l es o f d ea l s w hi c h come t o mar k e t near ly as Ivhi e t s the American deals ; at the present time we have white deals from Rig, ai r Sell in the m ar k e t a t 41. 1 0s. 6 d . per l oa d , an d t h e A mer i can d ea l s wi ll y-ge4l.ss. b Na.: ll ,, w ere understood to say that to preserve a fair circulation in the market ! 4 va ti i' n tile American and Baltic wood, it was necessary that there should be an :I:T.e on the side -a the American timber of forty-five shillings ; were you cor 1, understood ? Perfectly correctly. u rth • inferior purposes, is it necessary there should be that difference of forty 17bDielliTgs, to the consumption to the American timber ? lam still fully b t ': l (li et Za that hats necessary, because the bulk of the timber after allis used ''Z' N 6 c,, : speaking of the timber, the opinion I have given as to the difference in s tate "'es to timber - the duty upon deals bears heavier than it does upon timber. i„ c "'a e ry 'vl 'at you conceive' to be the protecting difference of price that would be " r °Pe ~I 'Don deals ? The prices vary so much of the deals from the north of n ou l k ut , f ro I b e I can only give it as an average price ; the average difference . think -° ,..„ e t th e „ a w b l'ut 25 per cent of American deals below the average price of deals Tha t i: ° rth of Erope - a 'Wart ; 1 Yes, if the one should be at 201. the other should be at 151. )„,. at i 3 e q uarter )I ' l lo s. . I. th selling price now ? Of the . one about 181. and the other about orth ef.,:„kait then it is to be taken into consideration that we have deals from the afi ch sell las 151. ue taki n You e s v peak whi of 181. as and ow 131. 10s. do you speak of the same measure? I s o rig th e P etersburg standard. in p t i P P ° sing th e standard Petersburg deals to sell for .201. you think the difference think" b etween the American deals and the Baltic deals should be bl. ? Yes, I thtre would be that difference in the estimation of the buyers as to quality. ;4°Yoil conceive, that for those inferior purposes which have been alluded to, 'pl it .L the 100 of deals is necessary to preserve the consumption for those inferior ar e ''uses to American timber? 1 conceive that the deals from the north of Europe Preferred, and generally supply the better uses for which deals are required; l ber 415 fr om North Ame r i ca w ill s till on ly fill th& l ower an d i n f er i or purposes , super oe, if t h e American deals did not supply the market, we should have, I 1% 1 ,, r) 5e. an i n f er i or description brought fro the the Baltic, whi c h wou ld s u pply it ; brie inch there wou ld be, perhaps, nearly as much difference as there is between the je Trt, of th e b est B altic deals which we import, and that of the American which we Icr lhe question referred to inferior purposes, and what the committee wish to uw distinctly is, whether that amount of difference is necessary still to continue C " s A UrnpOOri of Ame rican woo d f or t h ose i n f erior purposes to which it is now P A il eable? Ido think so. ti oo l'r b ° l7 l your genera l knowledge of the timb er t ra d e , d o you k now what propor h.... I the consumpt i on of timber is applied t o th e i n f er i or purposes that you ~.'o ` u e stated? I can give but a very inadequate idea of that; I should conceive t n one-thi r d o f t h e whole amount ; but it is mere guess. you speak particularly as to the trade in staves ? Not so particularly as Iv.!..atso that in d ea l s an d t i m b er generally. 111 : 1 any gre a t a lt erat i on taken place in the extent of the import of staves from ~._ Baltic of l a t e years? lam not particularly acquainted with it, but I think there bas been to about the same extent which has been experienced in deals and timber. of the IT cannot speak p rev i ous l y to 1810? I cannot speak with the same accuracy uo_,erstande trade as of th e d ea l and timber trade ; the alteration is generally, I You , the same, arising from the same causes. thenthat an would conce i ve, if an alteration were to take place in the duties on timber, aaelteration, upon the same principle, ought to take place in staves, to bring If suc_k to an a footing of competition ? Decidedly. tain t _ e h alteration were to take place in the duties on timber, as the corn dut, e . have been referring to, what compai.-a:Cive alteration ought to take placein the of ...ts deals, tolpslhaoceiddeals from the Br is Colonies and the Baltic on a footing of} °r ? consider, that deaZ la . : i d on, bears to tlu resent rate CA the same proportion which the duty taken to o ; in fact, as far a: e P or have bee, duty on timber, should be the rule to affect be a ei that the war duty a able to give it any consideration, it appears air guide to go by ' in a u lye bey, and 41. 75. 6d. on (l a t portion of that in one case or the other, would de . articles. The war duty was 13s. Bd. on tim "s'i. I . am clearly of opinion, that if the war duty [Adjourned to tc.morrow, one o'clock. Jovis, 22 die .Fetruarii, 1821. The Right Honourable THOMAS WALLAcs, in the Chair. Bartin Haigh, called in; and examined. WHAT is your business? A joiner, house carpenter and builder, at Liverpool. How long have you been established in business at Liverpool ? Five-and -twenty years. Have you, during that period, been accustomed to make use of Baltic timber, and also American yellow and,red pine timber? Of American yellow pine, but not of red pine so long as twenty-five years.` Have you had opportunities of ascertaining the durability of each of those kinds of timber after they have been used ? Yes, several. Have they occupied your particular attention with a view to ascqtaining their degrees of durability? Yes, I have paid attention more particularly to the pine, beeause there was not the prejudice against the Baltic. What opinion have youfo;med of the respective durability of each, when em• pliKr'red hi the 6rdipary purposes of house-building? The more experience I have had of the pine, the more partial i hate become to the use of it. State comparatively your opinion, which yon hare found the most durable, and which the most liable to decay, with reference to the pa?ticular manner in which they have been respectively used? I have used the American pine fonr-and twenty years back for gate-posts, and renewed them in 1814; this was in 1790. You used American pine for making posts of gates in 1796? Yes; in 1814 *e renewed them ; they were decayed ;- that was a period of upwards of eighteen years ;. we do not consider that Baltic timber wou!d last longer to be in the ground than from eighteen to twenty years ; that is a fair trial of Baltic timber. iVere those posts to Which you refer, placed in the ground so as to be exposed to the damp of the sail? Yes, they were buried in the ground at least four feet. And lasted for eighteen years? Yes, upwards. When taken out, in what state did you find them? They were decayed; it was between the surface and the earth that they were decayed, just where the wet gets to. them. They were decayed just in that part where they are subject to the alternation of wet and dry? Yes. They stood well exposed to the air, but in that pert where there was an alterna tion of wetness and dryness they had decayed? Yes. Was that part of the post which was placed in the earth, decayed•? Not so rntieli as the other part. Did t 6 det'aj . red part bear the appearance of dry rot? No, not at all. No part of the post had that appearance? No part; it was just the same as Baltic timber. You are quite clear they were made of American pine' timber ? Quite clear, for they were put down by my directions. Can you state" any other instances of the durability of American yellow pine tim ber ? Yes ; in 1797, we made sashes, and frames, and shop-fronts for three houses, and I examined them off lilonday last, and they are in a perfect state. By shop-fronts, you mean the ornamental parts of shop-fronts? Yes. Have you known any particular instances of the durability of yellow pine where it has been used for joists or other purposes of house-buiMitig, where it was placed in a particularly confined state, and in any way exposed to damp or green walls? 'Yes; in 1810 I built eight houses of pine timber, and about four months since, I opened the flotirs of of the houses, and examined the ends, which,have th'ree bearings on the outside WaliS, the joists in the walls, and found them perfectly sound and hood, and the boards also. Were those walls outer walls ? Outer wails. Do you know of any instances of Baltic timber decaying at any given period, when used in a similar manner? Yes, in nine years. I built a house of Rigatimber, and under the wine cellar where the air was kept from it, in nine years both the boards and the joists were completely decayed. What appearance did that decay assume ; was it the dry rot, or dtherwise? A rot that is found arising from the damp. Was there a fungus? Yes, it was all over fungus ; there was nothing but the skin of the upper part that appeared free. Are you of opinion that American yellow pine timber, for the ordinary purposes of house-building, is not more.subject to decay than the common pine of the Bal tic? Not to my knowledge; I have never found it so in all my experience; hav ing tried both, I do not conceive that it is. Do you know any instances in which American pine timber, when used for house building or other similar purposes, has decayed prematurely? Not at all ; Ido not remember any. For what purposes is the American yellow pine timber generally used in Lan cashire? There are large quantities used in the manufacturing towns, for boxes, and also for the insides of buildings; in Liverpool, the cabins of ships are all fitted up with the pine timber, and the insides of buildings ;it is used for mouldings and architraves. For floors? Sometimes in floors, but more generally for the doors, window shutters, anti all tipt part of the work which has most labour upon it. Do you consider American yellow pine equally suitable for floors, with Baltic timber or deals ? For warehouses, it is my decided opinion that the yellow pine will be found equally as profitable and as durable as Baltic. Is it not of a soft nature, and alit' to yield to pressure? It is rather so ; it sinks, it gives way, it is more spongy, but it does not wear. I have examined a warehouse on Monday last, the floors of which were laid twenty years back, and are in per fect good order. It is within your own knowledge that those floors were made of American pine ? Yes, the boards went from my own yard, and the warehouse doors were of pine, and they are'in perfectly good order. Then, in point of fact, though you find American pine of a softer texture, upon the whole it is not less durable for. this purpose than Baltic timber? No; from my experience of it, though we have not been in the habit of using so much of it, yet, by proving the time it has been in uk, I am quite convinced that the more it is used, the more persons will be in favour of it. Another reason why I find that the pine timber will wear equally as well as the Baltic is, that in the warehouses there is generally a grit or sand that is upon the floors, arising from the different uses of the warehouse; the timber receives that by the treading it in, it makes the surface more hard. . Inform the committee, what number of joiners and house carpenters you are in the practice of employing, in the ordinary course of your business? Fifty hands. What proportion of American yellow pine timber, compared with Baltic, are you in the habit of using in the course of your business, as a joiner and house car penter? Some years about equal, other years more Baltic than pine ;my business is principally in building the best houses, houses of the first class; and there hai been a prejudice against the pine, and my employers have preferred using Baltic to pine, and that has led me to use more of the Baltic. Are you acquainted with the general proportion throughout the country, that is used of each description of timber; that is, the North American pine, and . the Bal tic pine? Of late years, I apprehend there has been about two-thirds of American pine to one of Baltic; in Liverpool, I believe, that will be found to be about the average. Can you state to the committee, the present price of good North American pine in the Liverpool market? Eighteen-pence is the price now. Can you state the present price of good Baltic timber, such as that of Memel, Dantzic, or Riga? Dantzic is 2s. 6d. Riga, being scarce, about 3s. Memel, about the same as Dantzic. Thg high price of Riga is Owing to its being particularly scarce? Yes. Is there American timber, good timber, at the price of Is. 6d.? Yes; but not what it has been for some time past ; at present, there is a scarcity of demand. Is there any abatement of demand in consequence of the price? No, not at all. Is there, at the prices you have quoted for Baltic timber, a good demand, equal to the demand for American? No, there is not the same demand. for Baltic as for American. What approximation, in the prices of the two kinds of timber, that is, corning nearer to each other, would be necessary in order to increase materially the demand for Baltic timber, the present difference being about Is. a foot? As Baltic timber is stronger bearing timber than the pine, it would make 4d. a foot, the difference from the bearing o the one and the other, I should imagine about 6d. ; that is to say, the Baltic timber about 6d. a foot more than pine, would make Baltic timber to be mote used than it is. Then the consumption of American timber would decrease in the same propor .ion ? Ofcourse. Then in point of fact the committee understand you to state, that the proportion, that in your view of the subject, the difference of strength between Pattie timber and American, for the purposes of bearing, is as 21 to 28 ? I have made my cal culations according to the bearing. When I have used pine timber, I cut my scantling ten by two and half, for which I should put in Baltic nine by two and a half, so that, supposing pine timber to be two shillings, then it would, to put in the same strength of timber as I should in Baltic, make it equal to 2s. 4d. Then, in the use of American timber, put in, in such a manner as to be of equal strength with the Baltic timber, there would still be a saving of two-pence in the expence ? There would be a saving of two-pence, but the prejudice in favour of Baltic would lead the public to prefer Baltic. . With this difference in the scantling of the timber, would you use for your own purposes, American timber as readily as you would Baltic? For all purposes, with the exception of beams for warehouses, or wherever there might be a great pressure ; where we use props under the beams, the American pine being softer than the Baltic, there would be a giving way, which would lead in many stories, that is, in six or seven stories of a warehouse, the beams to sink so much more. For that reason, itwould not be so preferable as the Baltic; but for warehouse floors, I am fully persuaded it would answer as well. Is there not a way in which you now make the beams, by constructing them of different species of wood, that prevents that giving way you have spoken of? That has always been used for ages past ; it is what we call trussing a beam. When the beams made of the American timber are so trussed, are they not as strong as those made of the Baltic ? The American timber I have mentioned must have a great proportion more in it than Baltic, to make it equal to Baltic. If you truss an American beam, and truss a Baltic beam, the proportion is equally the same in the one as the other; to go to truss an American beam , and not to truss a Baltic beam, the expense of trussing the beam would be so much more that no one would ever attempt it. Supposing the prices of American pine and Baltic pine to be equal, or nearly so, are there any purposes for which you would Still continue to use American pine, notwithstanding the equality of price? Certainly, as I before observed, for mouldings, architraves, and every thing of that kind, the American timber is su perior; it receives the paint better than the Baltic; it is cleaner, freer from knots, and for doors and shutters is lighter on the binge; and the breadth also prevents B lueing of pannels ; where you require width of pannels on the inside, it is always preferred on that account. Do you give a preference to any one particular port of the British North Ame rican colonies over the other? Yes. Which? The Miramichi timber is what we consider to be the best timber that comes into the port of Liverpool ; that is New Brunswick timber. Better than Canada timber of any description ? It is cleaner and more lively timber, not a dead timber ;I am not speaking of the red pine. It is only for the cleanness 'of it; when we cut the other timber up, either St. John's or Quebec, it is found to be more knotty; we use it more on account of its being cleaner than the other. We give a preference to Miramicbi timber; it sells a penny a foot more in the market than St. John's timber. ' Have you ever. used white spruce deals, or timber from Canada? Not the deals; I have used white spruce timber balk. Is that better for any purposes than the ycllowpine timber ?. We do not ap prove of it at all in Liverpool, and very little is used ; very little comes there. Inform the committee what is the usual square of the timber imported from Mi ramichi? The size is sixteen, eighteen, and twenty-two inches, and some two feet. Have you made any remark on the comparative quality of the middle or smaller sizes with the larger sizes? Yes; I will first state, that as to the United States of America, we used to have all our yellow pine timber from thence twenty years back ; that was of a softer nature ; a wore grown timber, a much inferior timber. than what we have from the British settlements : it has been my opinion, that. that has produced more prejudice against the timber, than the timber from the British settlements. With respect to what comes from the British settlements,. there is some that is overgrown timber, and that timber we always found to be the most inferior timber; the timber of large scantling. What do you mean by overgrown timber ? That the trees had not been cut time enough ; and it is my opinion, that the more the timber is used here the better we shall have it come into this country ; as the forests will be first cleared. of the old timber, and then that in a fitter state for use in its turn, though of smaller dimensions, will be cut. Have you been in the habit of using the deals imported from Canada? Not much. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ You do not feel yourselves sufficiently acquainted with the quality of them, to give the committee any information upon them ? The quality is about the same with the timber ; but they are often knotty and twelve feet only long ; that we prefer cutting up out of the balk, as being more profitable. That objection applies generally to all short deals, does it not? Yes. Are you acquainted with the red pine of America ? Yes. What opinion do you entertain of the red pine of America ? I have a good opinion of the red pine. Is it superior in quality to the yellow ? For the purpose of bearing timber, it is superior. Do you know, from your experience, whether it is more durable or less so ? That I cannot speak to ; the time of; its coming into the port has not. been suf— ficient to prove. What difference of price does it bear in the Liverpool market, from other pine? Fourpence. Have you been in the habit of using pitch-pine in the course of your business? Yes. _ _ _ _ . . _ Have you found pitch pine more durable than the yellow pine of America ? The reverse, in some instances. Point out the instances? Whenever pitch pine is confined from air, it will de cay sooner than the yellow pine, but not otherwise. For what purposes has pitch pine been commonly used in Liverpool ? For floors, we have used more of it since Riga timber became scarce. Is it not used for ship-building purposes ? Yes, it is, for some purposes. Can you state, within the last twenty-five years in which you have been in the habit of using yellow pine, what difference has taken place in the comparative use of Baltic and American timber ? I cannot state, except that the yellow pine tim ber has been much more in use every year, for ten, twelve, and fourteen years. Do you conceive it to have been in a state of progressive increase, previously to the year 1310 ? Yes. It has been gradually increasing, subsequent to that time ? Yes. Afore rapidly ? When the American pine timber was lower, of course there was more of it used, in proportion to the difference. Do you think that the increased use of it, subsequent to the year 1310, has been owing entirely to the difference of the price between Baltic timber and American timber, or to the effect of the experience they have had in the value of it ? I be lieve both, that the more experience they have had the prejudice has been less, and also the difference of price. In consequence of your having conceived a better opinion of this timber than you had originally, have you been in the habit of using it in better descriptions of buildings ? Certainly. That you now use it in a description of buildings, in which you would not have ventured to have used it some years ago ? Exactly so; and I mention as a reason of my prejudice twenty years back, my noticing more particularly the gate-posts in which we used it, and also the sashes and frames that we made in 1797. You have compared the durability of Baltic timber with the durability of Ame rican timber, and have given some instances, state what the description of Baltic timber was, with which you made the comparison ? It was with Riga of the best quality. Do you know from the communications yoir have had with other people in the same trade, whether the same impression has been made upon their minds, by the experience they have had in the use of the yellow pine timber ? It 11 generally approved of, I believe that the opinion in favour of it is growing. Do you happen to know whether any other persons beside yourself, have used it recently in the higher descriptions of buildings ? Yes, it is more used in Liver. pool by others, than it is by myself. Do the present prices of timber bring in a great deal of very bad timber from America? No, Ido not perceive that; only, as I observed before, and it is my decided opinion, that if some plan was adopted to prevent the large scantling of overgrown timber from coming to market, that would be a very great advantage to the American trade. That if some measure could be taken to produce greater care in the selection of the timber, it would on the whole be more advantageous to the trade ? I have not a doubt of it. • Supposing, by alteration in duty, or from other causes, the difference in price between Baltic timber and American timber, which appears to be now in the Liverpool market about fifty shillings per load, should be reduced to half, or twenty-five shillings, in what proportion would the consumption of each species be affected ? I cannot speak exactly to what proportion, but Baltic would be more Used than the American pine. To what extent do you think it would be more used ? That I really cannot say. You have stated that you conceive, and that it seems to be the impression- of those at Liverpool in the same trade with yourself, that the American timber is as good as the Baltic, for a great' many purposes? Yes. That for some it is even superior ? Yes. In those for which you conceive American pine to be superior at equal prices, and for those purposes to which you consider it equally applicable, would not a moderate difference in the price cast the balance in favour of the American tim ber ? For those purposes it would. From those purposes, you have excluded all the purposes to which it is applied for bearing considerable weights ? Yes. Whabdo you conceive, in your own trade, to be the amount of wood used by you for the purposes of honses, and various other purposes, exclusive of these where it is used for purposes of bearing ? The most we use is for those purposes, not for bearing purposes, it is about equal ; about the same quantity of pine as Baltic, sometimes more in one year of Baltic than the other, and sometimes more of American. There are certain purposes for which you say they are equally good, from those purposes you except those that apply to bearing in the use of the trade ; generally speaking, what do you conceive to be the proportion of wood used by them for those purposes which are not for bearing, such as beams, joists, and those things ? I should say that as three is to four, that three parts of it are used for other pur poses, and one for bearing. Would not, in your opinion, a moderate difference of price make the American wood be preferred for those purposes in which bearing is not an object? I men tioned before, that the preference would be given, prOvided the price was in favour of the pine ; but it should be observed, that though the persons that use this tim ber would be prejudiced in favour of it, yet the persons that it is used for, the em ployers, are still prejudiced against it, and there might not be if the price came near the quantity of pine timber used in the same proportion as there is now, be cause the employers would still be in favour of Baltic timber. Do you think that a difference of twenty-five shillings in the load, would be sufficient to overcome that prejudice ? Yes ; it is my opinion that twenty-five shillings would be a fair proportion ; but I think it is as much as ought to be laid upon it. What do you think would be the effect of a difference only of twenty shillings? It would still be in favour of the pine. Would a difference of twenty-five shillings throw out of use that proportion of the pine timber which is now employed in bearing? No. That would still continue, in your opinion, to be as much used in the purposes of bearing as it now is, if the difference was only twenty-five shillings ? I cannot speak exactly to that; in some instances it would, and in others it would not. I have before observed, that where the better houses are built, the gentlemen who have their houses built would sooner give more to have them made of Baltic, the prejudice being in favour of it,' though the price is so much higher.. Mr. John Diston Powles was called in, and examined. What is your line of business ? A ship and insurance broker. How long have you been engaged in that business ? From ten to twelve years. Is your business largely in freighting ships to bring timber from the Baltic and from the British provinces in North America? Very much so. Have you had occasion to observe what has been the effect of increasing the duties on foreign timber, and exempting the timber from the American provinces from duty on the employment of British shipping ? It has had the effect of pro viding a resource for the employment of British shipping, for which otherwise no employment could have been found. Upon what ground do you 'state, that no other employment could have been found for that proportion of British shipping ? I say so because all other means have been tried : and there still remains a quantity of shipping for which it is very difficult to find employment. To what circumstances do you attribute that difficulty ? I attribute it, in the first place, to the demand for transports having ceased ; and secondly, to the trade . of the country being exposed to greater competition than formerly. If the timber trade with the British provinces in North America had not afforded this resource for the employment of shipping, would the same quantity of shipping have been engaged in bringing the wood from the northern powers of Europe? I apprehend not one-eighth part of the quantity of tonnage. What are your grounds for that opinion ? I say so, because from Russia ships make upon an average about two voyages a season, from Prussia three or four, from Norway six ; from which I reckon, that if the whole had been brought in British tonnage, it would not have employed above a quarter of the tonnage to have brought it: but looking to the fact, that from Prussia and from Sweden one-half of the tonnage employed is foreign, and from Norway five-sixths of it foreign, I come to the conclusion, that upon the whole not above one-eighth part of the tonnage would have been employed to bring the same quantity of wood from the north of Europe that has been employed in bringing it from America. If such regulations in the duties on timber were made as to throw a greater pro portion of the supply from the Baltic, and less from the British provinces in North America, do you apprehend that the increased trade with the northern powers of Europe would be carried on in a greater proportion in British ships than it hitherto has been ? Certainly not. What means have you of forming an opinion upon that subject ? Because I find, looking to the three years ending in 1819, which is the latest date to which I have found any returns made, that although the Norway ships, in coming here, lose one-fifth of their whole freight by the difference in duty,, and although the Prussians lose to the extent of one-seventh in the difference of duty; notwithstand.