The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-20 00:00:00

as early a period as those you have mentiont• 1, in consequt•nce of the ilry rot ? No, I cannot say that I have. In your answer to the last questions, you have spoken of ships built at Quebec, are you acquainted with any ships built of American timber in this country ? No, I am not. . Are you acquainted with any that are partially built with that description of timber? 'We repair ships with American timber, because it comes cheaper. Can you state how those repairs hold out, in comparison with repairs made upon ships with English or other timber not American ? Speaking from my own know ledge, I have seen no difference at all; we have repaired ships with Quebec timber, and which answered all our expectations; had the repairs been done with English oak, Ido not apprehend they would have been better. Besides, it is so much more "Pensive, that few would go to that expense, for the sake of putting in English Plank. Have you observed that those ships have been more liable to the dry rot than those which have been built with the Baltic timber ? No, I have not. Is it your opinion that American timber is more subject to dry rot than the Bri tish or Baltic timber ? They are all subject to the dry rot, if not properly converted. The question put by the committee applies to timber under the same circum stances ? I should think not; not the white oak. I never in my life saw a Que bec ship rotten in six years, and I have had a great many through my hands. Have you seen any instances of ships, where both British and American timber have been used, becoming liable to the dry rot from the mixture of the two? No, I cannot say I have ; I should think they would be likely to contaminate each other, if put in not properly seasoned. I think that the Quebec oak would destroy the English ; and the English, if not properly seasoned, would have a tendency to de stroy the other. Then, if it should appear to take place, you would attribute it to the different - states in which the timber was used, and not to the natural quality of the wood ? I should attribute it to the state in which the wood was in when used. Is it not the case that any wood which has contracted the dry rot, will com municate it to any other wood with which it may come in ceontact ? No doubt of it ; it is clearly a disease. From what cause do you think the dry rot to arise, principally in ships ? My own opinion is, that the cause in the English oak is its being cut down in an improper season, the sap being up the tree, which is done for the sake of saving the bark, but which in my opinion causes a vegetation, and produces the dry rot. Do you not attribute a great deal to the situation in which it may be placed? , • If it is not cut in the proper seasons, it is no matter where you put it, it will have the dry rot. - Will not the best seasoned timber also acquire the dry rot, if placed in close damp situations not sufficiently aired? It will injure the timber no doubt; but it would . n ot have the dry rot in the same period of time that the other would ; tim ber that 's well seasoned will last for a great number of years, especially English oak, if got I at a proper time. Are you of opinion that the dry rot originates solely from the want of seasoning in the timber, and never from the position• in which that timber is placed, when the timber is well seasoned? I think it arises from the cause I have mentioned, namely, cutting it at improper seasons ; if it is cut at the proper season, and not seasoned before it is converted, it will get the dry rot. What do you mean by proper season? Cut in the proper season. Is not all the American oak cut in the winter season ? Ido not know ; I believe they cut it in the summer ; I never was up the country, though I have been at Quebec. You cannot speak to it? No. Are you of opinidn, American oak and English oak, each fell at the same season, are equally liable to the 'dry rot, and the same with respect to American fir, and Norway fir? It depends a great deal upon the seasoning and felling; at the same time, it depends a great deal on the situation where it grows ; oak that grows in a low swampy situation, as for instance, in some parts of Lincolnshire, is a red foxy oak, and do what you will with it, it will get the dry rot. With respect to drawing a comparison between the felling American and English oak, I think it would have the same effect on them. The white oak in America is very little inferior to the English oak, if seasoned properly; at the same time, I certainly should prefer the English oak to the American oak, as I should think that the one would be more subject to the dry rot than the other. Is there any other description cf American oak brought to England except white oak ? A great deal comes into this country both red and white. ' Which comes in the greatest quantity? It is impossible for me to say; perhaps there may be as 'much of one as the other. What are the purposes to which it is chiefly applied? Chiefly applied to the repairing of ships. Do you allude to the red oak ? Both the white and the red. Please to describe to the committee, what in your opinion are the qualities of red oak? Red oak is a very inferior wood,' it is very subject to the dry rot. Does this disposition for dry rot depend very much on the seasoning at which it is fell; or to its position in the work in which it is placed ? I should think that the cause of the Quebec oak timber being subject to the dry rot, very much depends on the manner in which it is converted ; it comes over here in logs, it is put in the water, and after laying there some time, it is taken out of the water to the saw-pit ; there it is cut up and put into the ship immediately, which is very much against the qua lity of the wood ; let it be what it will, it will sooner decay in that ray than if cut into plank, and had remained under a shed to season it, for all the damp is in it which causes it to decay. Do you think then tliat a more careful system of management would prevent the red oak from becoming subject to the dry rot? I think if the oak was to come from America in the shape of plank, as it does from the Baltic, it would be superior to the Baltic plank ; the Baltic plank comes converted into plank ; it is landed, and ~.it lies for months before it is sold. and all that time it is seasoning; w h e reas, 4 nebee comes in the log; it is cut into 'plank, and converted at once, which is not doing that justice to it which it ought to have, or indeed to any timber so use d. Is the re a n y thing. in the state of the laws which prevents the Canada timber c ror o being imported in the state of plank instead of log ? No ; if they had mills in Canada to cut them ; as a commercial country, Canada is as yet only in its inf ancy. Are you not aware, that in the United States of America great prejudices exist against the northern oak, as well the Canada as the New England oak, and that the preference is always given to the oak grown in the middle States ? I should think the United States have very little knowledge of the Canada oak ; the ships that are built at Boston are built of red oak, which are considered very inferior to ships built at New York or Philadelphia. Is there no white oak- grown in the northern States ? Very little. Will you have the goodness to state to the committee any observations that you have had an opportunity of making with respect to the comparison of the American fir with the fir of the north of Europe ? The red pine of America in my opinion is equal to the pine which comes from any ports of the north of Europe for masts or for decks of ships ; the yellow pine I should think equal to the Norway pine, or to the Swedish ; but the Dantzic I should think superior to any of the others except the Quebec red pine. When you say that, do you mean for any particular, ,purposes ? I mean for ship building exclusively. Do you not consider the Riga pine superior to the Dantzic? Yes, I consider it superior. Have you had any experience of the use of the NOrway timber in ship build ing? No. How do you estimate the yellow pine of Canada as compared with the yellow pine of the Baltic? It depends upon what purpose it is to be applied; for the in ternal work of a house, I should have no choice which I take ; but if it was for the repairing of a ship, the Riga and Dantzic are preferable to the American yellow pine. For what parts in the construction of the ship do you use the yellow pine? Principally for the flooring of the decks. Is it used for timber 7 Very seldom, the English ship-owners generally prefer the Quebec oak. Is the committee to understand that for the flooring of decks the yellow pine is superior to the Norway pine ? It certainly is ; the other is not large enough, you cannot .convert it, you cannot make a deck of it. Then when you speak of the quality of the American pine as compared with the Norway pine, you do not mean to give an opinion as to the quality of the wood, hut you give the preference to the American over the Norway, in consequence of the latter not being convertible to the proper sizes? Yes, certainly. Have you ever seen ships built entirely or principally of American fir? Yes, I have in New Brunswick ; they build those ships of oak at Quebec. What has been the durability of those ships? The ships that I have seen built of red pine at New Brunswick, have been superior to almost any ships except oak ships ; indeed, for myself, I would as soon have a red pine ship as many that are built in this country, at Sunderland, for instance. How long have you known those ships to last? Nine or ten years. Are you aware that about the year 1 8 1 3, several frigates were built of American pine in the merchants' yards? Yes. Those ships were broken up in 1 816; had you an opportunity of seeing any of those ships broken up? Yes ; Sir Robert Wigram built four, and the others were built at Hill's, or Enling's dock. Do you know whether those were built of red or white pine? That I cannot tell. Had you an opportunity of seeing those ships in consequence of breaking them up? I only saw them going down the river as I was passing. If those ships had been of a size which could have been employed for the mer chants' service, were they then in such a state that they could have been so em ployed? If they had been ships that could have been converted into merchant men, I have no doubt they would have been in existence yet, or would have been sold to merchants abroad, but these frigates could not be sold to foreigners, as it is a special condition made by the navy board. Why do you suppose they were broken up, if they were in a sound state? I should suppose peace coming, it was not worth the while government to keep them merely to lie by the walls to rot. The committee understood you to say, you did not see them only upon passing when you were going down the river? I could see them very well, as part of their sides were open, and I could see that many of their planks were rotten. Did you examine those ships sufficiently to ascertain whether the dry rot had or had not existed on board of them ? No, I did not. What is your opinion as to the relative value of the Quebec oak and the Dantzic oak ; which is the best timber of the two? There is very little timber comes from Dantzic. If the Quebec white oak was properly seasoned, it is preferable to the Dantzic, and very little inferior to the English Have you ever broken up a ship yourself built of Quebec oak or American pine? No, never. At what relative difference of price would you prefer to purchase English oak to -American white oak? We cannot draw a comparison, because Quebec oak comes all of one description ; but English plank will vary from 71. per load to 201. per load. Suppose the English oak to be the same scantling as the American oak? If it was to repair a ship, I should prefer the Quebec timber ; but 1 can hardly answer - that question, because the American timber chiefly comes in logs, out of which I can cut a six-inch pl an k, and which does not cost me more than 71. per load; but if I had to purchase an English plank of six-or seven inches thick, I should have to pay 17 to 201. per load ; to get a six-inch plank out of an English tree, the tree must at least have 60 or 70 feet, and there being a considerable scarcity of that size wood, the timber merchants ask a great deal of money for it ; but if I were to buy a Quebec log, I should not have to pay more than 61. or 71. Is not Quebec oak used as well as English oak for repairing ships ? Yes; I never knew a ship built of Quebec timber in this country. For such other purposes as your last answer does not apply to, what difference in price do you think you should prefer to buy English oak at, to Quebec white oak ? I should, as far as it depended on myself, give 20 per cent more for, white English oak. Can you answer the same question, with respect to the relative value between American white oak and the red ; what degree of inferiority of price, between red oak and white oak, would induce you to use it ? When we buy a lot of English oak in this market, we cannot tell whether it is red or white ; it is all mixed toge ther ; we cannot go in the market and select it ; if we buy a lot, we cannot afford to throw away the red; we put it in with the white. Would any merchant employing you to repair a ship, allow you to put in red oak in place of white ? No, if he knew it, certainly not. In point of fact, if you were to enter into a contract to build a good and suffi cient ship for those purposes of trade, where they are employed, such as the Jamaica trade or East India trade, would you introduce into that ship any of' the white oak? No, not of myself,,without permission of the owner. Why not? Because, certainly, those who build ships in this country, are gene rally confined to build them with English,oak. Have you any other reason ? No. In point of fact, is not the Canada oak more liable to perish than English oak ? Yes. Is not that circumstance a sufficient reason, of itself, for not introducing it into the building of ships ? There is some English oak worse, in my opinion, than the Quebec white oak, and very little better than Quebec red oak. Presuming that you have had occasion to purchase oak plank, would you pur chase Canada plank in preference to Dantzic ? I should prefer the white oak of Quebec - ; I should rather give the preference to it than the Dantzic. As you have spoken of the durability of ships built of North American pine, can you speak of the durability of ships built of the pine of the Balder No, I cannot. Is the timber of the Baltic or North America, equally valuable for repairing ships with English oak ? It is preferable for repairing ships. In giving that answer, do you not take into consideration that it is not necessary to last so long as timber which would be used for the building of ships ? Certainly that is one reason why we repair a ship with Canada or Baltic oak, it makes the ship all of a-piece with that which is left. ,Are there not a great many parts of a ship, as the masts, and other parts, for which American timber is universally used ? They use Riga masts, and sometimes American masts ; you are obliged to use that which is in the market. Is it not used for all the ships of war? You cannot get such large masts from Riga as from Canada. The committee understand that to apply to ships of war? To ships of war and to Indiamen. Does it likewise apply to the higher description of merchantmen employed in other trades ? A merchant always prefers the Quebec red masts, which I look upon to be the best that can be brought into a ship. Is the yellow pine applied to those purposes ? Sometimes it is. What do you take to be the amount of the quantity of fir imported from Ame rica, with a view to those purposes? That is a question I cannot answer. Is it a very large quantity? It is a very large quantity, no doubt. A large quantity is necessary for those purposes, and for which the American timber is preferred ? Yes. Do you think, if there were a considerable alteration of duty, that for those pur poses American fir would be still brought to this country ? I should think that for those purposes American deal would be still brought to this country; the difference of freight would prevent the importation of timber from America. Under what possible alteration of duty do you think that American timber would still come and be saleable in the market of this country? I think American tim ber would bear from five shillings to seven and sixpence, perhaps ten shillings per load upon it. Sup ose instead of laying on a duty of five shillings or seven and sixpence per load, that amount should be taken off of northern timber, what effect do you think that would produce? I think the Canada trade w,,uld be then 'reduced to a very great extent, and the Baltic trade would be increased ; the price would get up, for the demand for it would be so great from the ports of the Baltic, that they would raise the price immediately. Why do you think a greater effect would be produced by taking off the duty from the northern timber, than there would be by laying on the same amount of duty upon Canadian timber ? It would be the same to look at it ; if a duty was laid upon the timber, there would not be so many importers of it as there are at present, there now being persons who glut the market ; they would then be more select ; but when it comes duty free, they send all sorts of timber, and the bad establishes the price for the good. Then do you not think that such an alteration of the duty as would produce the effect you have stated would be for the general advantage of the country ? I should think any thing that would employ the British shipping, of course would be advan tageous to the country ; if the duty were to be altered so as -to prevent the importa tion of timber from Canada, you would throw about 6 or 700 sail of ships, and more than as many thousand men out of employ ; and besides that which comes from America, the freightage forms the most valuable part, that is all spent in the outfit of the ship, and the sailors' wages, and very little of it goes into the owners' pockets ; that I can speak to, of my own knowledge. We get very Fttle money : all our freight goes in paying the shipwright and mastmakers, and ropemakers and sailmakers, and all other trades, which are requisite to the outfit of a ship. Have you any vessel in the Baltic trade? None ; the port charges and expenses are so heavy, that if an English ship owner can get a freight to America, he will not go there. I would observe, in addition to my former answer, that in fitting our ships out to America, we lay in our provisions in this country, such as salt beef and pork, and bread and flour; but the English ships which go to the Baltic, take no Irish provisions, or very little; they may have a single cask or so on board; the reason is, because they can get them cheaper in the Baltic. Aie you- of opinion, that the imposition of the duty you have,mentioned on the American timber, and which would tend to check t he im p ortation of it, would produce a great effect upon the shipping, and the persons employed? Certainly trot; though it might to a small degree, but not to any great extent, because no timber would be imported then, but of sound quality. You have stated, that if a duty of five shillings to ten shillings per load were laid on the timber of America, it would exclude from the trade a portion of importers, whose conduct is injurious to it, and would lead to the importation of timber better selected and better prepared, being aware that the present freight of timber is 455. from Canada, that the other charges are not less than five shillings, making to gether 50s. ; are you of opinion, that an increase of those charges of a sixth or an eighth, would be sufficient to exclude those persons from the trade, and lead to the consequences you have described ? I should think it would. Then you are of opinion that this advantage would be obtained in this manner, by laying a duty on the American thither, and the Baltic timber remaining subject to the present duty ? Yes. Is the committee to understand that you are of opinion that a reduction of the duty upon Baltic timber, of from five to ten shillings per load, would not produce the same effect? I should think not. You have stated the present price of freight of American timber to be about forty-five shillings? It is forty shillings from New Brunswick, and some of the other ports, and forty-five shillings from Quebec. Is that such a freight as, at the present rate of seamen's wages, will yield a fair remuneration to the owners? It is at such a rate that the ship owner would prefer going there to the Baltic for twenty shillings ; a ship owner would more readily go to Quebec for forty-five shillings, than to the Baltic for twenty shillings. Would they rather go to Quebec for forty shillings than to Memel for twenty shillings? I should think they would ; for a ship would make her voyage nearly in as little time as she would make two voyages to Memel, and the port expenses and other charges are so much greater, that I should think lie would prefer it. Do you think he would rather P. o for five and thirty shillings? I should think he would in the summer season ; he would not in the fall of the year. Then it is your opinion, that the ships in the Canada trade are now earning such freights as are paying the owners fairly ? We prefer going there to going to the Baltic : it is as good as any employment we can get; but we could not afford to build ships for that trade ; the ships employed in this trade are the second-class ships, which would be broken up, if we had not this trade. Then do you therefore, consider one of the advantages of this trade to be that, of being able to employ vessels which would not be competent to carry articles of weight, and which were perishable? They would be broken up, if it were not for that employ. [Adjourned till to-morrow, at one o'clock.] Vtneris, 16 die Februarii, 1821. The Right Honourable THOMAS WALLACE, in the Chair. Homy Ueborne, Esquire, called in, and examined. The committee understand you are a merchant ? Yes. Engaged in what trade? In the Canadian principally. You have been also engaged in the Russian trade? I have. Are you still engaged in the Russian trade? In a small degree. Then you can speak to both the Canadian and Russian trade? I can speak to both, but more particularly to the Canadian. Can you state what proportion the exports of wood bear to the general value of the exports from Russia to this country? No, I have not that information. Is it a considerable proportion? I should think so. Can you state at all, whether any diminution of the duties now imposed upon timber, would be likely to produce any considerable effect upon the Russian trade in this country? I should think so. In what way? I should think the less the duty, the greater the trade. Do you think that any diminution of the duty would produce a larger export of Russian timber to this country? Yes, I think it would. Do you believe that the effect of diminishing the duty would be to raise the price ,of timber in Russia? Yes. Do you think it would be raised in a proportion equivalent to the duty taken off? •I think it must depend upon how much duty is taken off, how much it would alter the price. Suppose five or ten shillings per load of timber, do you think it would rise in the same proportion? I think it would, or nearly so. Then what reason have you to think, that if wood came at the same price as it does at present, the import of it into this country would be much increased? There would be a greater inducement to the landed proprietors to get it out and export it. What effect do you think an increased export of wood from Russia would produce upon the imports of the manufactures and produce of this country ? I think not much. Are you of opinion that Russia takes as much now as she would be likely to take ? I think she does. Upon the supposition of any alteration taking place in the mode of taking the duty, what effect do you think would be produced by taking the duty upon the cubic feet, instead of the manner in which it is taken at present? It would much more benefit Norway than any other country, provided the rate of duty was the same. Do you think it - irould tend to lessen the importation from Russia? I think it would. In any considerable degree ? Yes ; Norway would have such a decided pre ference, it would lessen the export from all other countries. Would not that be confined to deals in particular? More generally so. In what ships is the trade between this country and Russia principally carried on ? Both in British ships and foreign. Do you know in what proportion ? I think in the greater proportion of foreign. Do you speak from mere recollection, or have you looked to any accounts or returns to confirm your opinion ? No; as there are tables which I supposed were before the committee, I did not refer to them. You have resided, the committee understand, in Canada? Yes. How long have you been engaged in the trade of that country? Nineteen years. Can you speak to the quality of the Canada timber as compared with that of the Baltic? Yes. State to/he committee what is your opinion upon that subject? Do the com mittee refer to oak or to pine? Of pine, the growth of our colonies, as compared with the pine of Norway ? The red pine I conceive equally good for every purpose. • Is not the principal import in yellow pine? Yes. Compare that ? I think for internal purposes it is as good as the Baltic. Have you found that the pine brought from America into this country is par ticularly liable to the thy rot? No, I think not. Not more than the pine brought from the Baltic? No, I conceive not; in Canada many of the houses and churches which have been built of it, have, I understand, stood a hundred years. The committee is speaking of the wood brought to this country? I conceive it not more liable. Have you had any means of observing its use, either in shipping or in buildings ? I have built several ships in Canada. in which the yellow pine has been used : some of them are now in being ; the trade has been so new in this country, that it is difficult to give an opinion as to its liability to the dry rot. I know of no instance where the dry rot has happened, where it would not have happened if wood of other description had been used. To what description of persons is the yellow timber sold ? To all timber merchants. Do you know for what purposes it is chiefly employed ? For all purposes, but more particularly for inferior purposes. Do you know of its being employed in any of what are called the first rate houses? I scarcely know any thing of the conversion of it. Are not the houses in Canada generally built of that wood? Yes, invariably of the wood of that province. Is not ship building carried on to a great extent in Canada? It has been, but now it is not. Can you state at all the tonnage annually built there in any average of years? Twenty to thirty ships, from two hundred to five hundred tons per annum. Is a great proportion of the timber trade carried on in those ships? At first, during the war, they were, too valuable when new ; but latterly they have been employed in'it, as there has been less employment for good ships in other trades ; inferior ships are as good as the first class of ships for the timber trade. Do you know any ships built in that country, that have lasted more than a few years? Yes; I have a list here of 123, all of which have been built ten years and upwards ; it is extracted from Lloyd's boqk of this year; it contains the number of ships built in Canada, and which are now in existence. [The List was handed in ] Have you ever bad any opportunity of observing the Canadian timber in union with other timber, such as Baltic ? No, except it has been in ship-building. Or of its communicating the dry rot ? No ; I should say we have supplied government with great quantities ; and when the demand in Canada has been large, and the prices high, some oak timber has been cut in the spring and immediately brought down and floated to Quebec, where it has been shipped wet from the rafts, and in this state brought to London ; I understand it has been immediately used, and being so used, it has been subject to the dry rot; but I conceive that any other timber would be equally subject was it treated in the same way. You attribute it then entirely to the period at which the wood was cut, and not to any peculiar liability to the dry rot in the wood itself? No, I attribute it to want of proper seasoning. What is the ordinary employment of the peasantry in Canada? In winter many are employed in cutting and preparing timber, and in the spring, rafting it and bringing it down to the port of Quebec, and in summer, in farming. Do you mean by that, that generally speaking, the wood that is cut in Canada, and rafted, is cut and rafted by the people who are employed in farming during the summer season ? Yes. _ . Do you mean to state by that, that there are no persons in Canada, whose time is exclusively devoted to timber-cuttingand rafting of it? Very few. Are the persons chiefly employed, natives, or Canadian settlers? I think more Canadians than others • there are many Scotch settlers or emigrants who a re employed, and many of the Americans. Does the pine timber chiefly come from the Upper or Lower Canada? The oak timber principally from Upper Canada, and the pine timber, about equally from both. Do you not know, that the timber men come from the United States for the purpose of cutting timber, and rafting it within the British colonies? The Ame ricans are more expert axemen, in consequence of which they are sometimes brought in for the purpose of cutting our timber and rafting it. Is it not the common and general practice? No, it is not a very common practice; it is done sometimes. I should add, timber is procured in many different ways; frequently many farmers procure a small quantity, which he exchanges for rum and clothes and provisions, and all the necessaries that he requires, with the merchant, who, in the country, retails out the different things which are imported into Canada Is not a certain proportion of the timber shipped at Quebec, the produce of the United States? Yes. What proportion will it bear to the whole quantity exported from that country? I should think - one-third. What, in yotir opinion, would be the effect upon the British interests, either in Canada, or in this country, if the importation into the United Kingdom were con fined to the timber the actual growth of our own provinces ? I think it would be very advantagrus to our`own colonies. Are you aware of any means by which that could be effected? It might be effected, I think, by having a certain number of custom-houses, and levying a duty when it came in. At what stations would you suggest the placing of those custom-houses? At St. John's I would station one. Is there any restriction by any colonial act on the timber trade, between the two countries ? No, I believe not. No duty exists upon the importation of timber into Canada from the United States? I believe none. In what other situation would you suggest a custom-house to be established? At or near St. Regis. Do you think, that the growth of the timber shotTld be ascertained at those Lustom-houses? I should think that quite impossible. Do you not think that Chateau Quai, where every raft is obliged to take a pilot when it passed the rapid, would be a better situation for a custom-house than St. Regis? No ; for much timber is got out below St. Regis. If the American timber should still continue to be imported into Canada, and not to be exported again under the exemption of duty which now exists, or any reduced duty at which it may hereafter be adviseable to permit the importation of American timber into Great Britain, are you not of opinion that the American tileber Would be consumed principally in the province, and that more timber, the growth of the province, would be exported in consequence of it? I think in the towns, more American timber would be used in consequence. Then of course the qUantity of Canadian timber that would have supplied that demand, would be sent to this country? I think it would. How long were you a resident in our North American colonies ? Seven years ; principally in Quebec. Does not a' great proportion of the colonial timber come from New Brunswick ? Yes ; a great proportion, especially of the inferior. What is your opinion of the relative durability of colonial yellow pine, as com pared with Baltic pine, for general purposes of building ? Where it is protected from the weather, I think it would last as long, or nearly so : I form this opinion from the buildings which I have seen in Canada. Should you form the same opinion, from any experience you have had in this country ? I should think it impossible to form any correct opinion of that kind, because it has not been long imported into this country. Is not the general opinion of builders, of both ships and houses, opposed to yours? I think they are prejudiced against it ; but which is perhaps the case in all new trades. Are not the relativ: qualities of the two descriptions of timber best ascertained by the prices which the same dimensions of timber sell for in the market ? I think not; because a prejudice prevails against American timber; the Baltic timber is much better prepared, and therefore better to convert. Is not what you call prejudice, the real opinion of purchasers ? I can answer, that I have lately repaired a house with it myself. I there used all Canadian timber; therefore I judge the prejudices are unfounded. But if you should find all other purchasers disposed to give a higher price for the Baltic timber, would you not come to the conclusion, that the opinion of all other persons is in opposition to yours? I cannot put my opinion in competition to every other person. Then you conceive that a great deal of prejudice exists on this subject? Yes, for its use, in many cases. What is the present value in the market of the colonial pine? I think from 31. to 31. 10s. depending upon the quality. - What is the preient price of Russian yellow pine ? lam not prepared to say, having been absent from town some time. What difference of price bet Ween the colonial yellow pine and the Russian yellow pine would, in your opinion, cause the preference to be given to the European pine in the markets of this country ? I think, for many inferior purposes, the one is 'as valuable as the other; but the trade is' in that unnatural state now, no fair inference can be drawn. Then are you of opinion, that if European pine was at 61. while the colonial pine was at 51. there still would be a considerable consumption of the colonial pine in this country ? Yes ; particularly on the west side of this country. In what proportion would the consumption exist, as compared with the present? I think it would be nearly equal to the present. If the American wood were at 41. 10s. and the Quebec at 61. that is to say, with the difference of 30s. between the two, are you of opinion that the quantity of cease. colonial timber consumed would be diminished ? 1 think the pie . judice would be less ; and, in time, the demand would increase as the timber was better knoWn. _ . You are therefore of opinion, that the colonial timber will bear a higher propor tion of price in the market than it now bears, when we have greater experience of its quality ? I think Canada timber would ; I think the New Brunswick much inferior to that of Canada. What has the price of yellow pine timber been at Quebec during the last year? From 20s. to 30s. a load. Do you think that 20s. a load is a sufficient price to remunerate the cutter and rafter for his labour in bringing the timber to market? I think, to a certain extent, it is ; if there should he an increased demand, it will be dearer. You do not think however that 20s would be a higher price than timber may generally be expected to bear at Quebec? No; on the contrary, I think a lower price. Are the difficulty and expense of getting good timber increasing both in Canada and in the Baltic? I understand it is; the expence, perhaps, more than the diffi culty, as it is further to bring it. Is there any considerable stock of timber left on hand this year at Quebec ? I understand not. Do you know in what state the preparations were for cutting timber during this winter ? I think the trade has been nearly stopt since the suspense respecting the duties; I think, if the Baltic duty were taken off', the colonial trade would entirely Then, in any event, you do not think, so much timber could be shipped this season as has been shipped during the two preceding seasons? No. Not in any event? No. According to the general habits of the trade, is nearly all the timber cut down in one winter exported, in the ensuing season? It is generally; but it sometimes depends on the state of the snow,' which, if it goes away, some of it cannot be got out. Is there generally much timber left at the ports of export? Generally there is. A good deal left? Yes. Was there last year ? Not so much as in general. Can you form any conjecture of the stock remaining over, as compared with the annual export? I should think about one-eighth ; but I speak this without know ing positively. The committee think you have stated as your opinion, that the cutting this last winter has been less than usual? Much less. You speak of the present winter? Yes. Has the cutting of the present winter been less than usual? I understand that it has. _ Is the winter far enough advanced so as to enable you to form a correct opinion upon that subject? I form my opinion from the circumstance of not having sent any orders myself for the private trade; and I understand no houses in the Canada trade have given any orders for wood during the suspense of the duties. Could any orders now sent affect the quantity to be cut, so as to be imported in the present year ? I think only to a very small degree. In your opinion, what would be the effect of a moderate duty upon the importa tion of colonial timber? I think it would be advantageous, because the quality of what would come would be better selected. I would beg to add, that in giving any opinion, I am presuming that no alteration will take place in the Baltic duty ; if so, the trade with the British colonies would totally end. Would not the laying a duty on the colonial timber, or the taking the duty off the Baltic timber of is similar amount, have the same effect upon the colonial trade ? I think not, because nowgreat quantities of very inferior timber come over, seeing it is subject to no duty; but should a duty take place, more care would be taken in selecting that which would be exported from our colonies. Are you therefore of opinion, that adding .a moderate duty upon the colonial timber would be less prejudicial to the interests of the colonial trade, than abstracting the same amount of duty from the Baltic timber? Yes, unquestionably. What amount of duty, in your opinion, could be laid on colonial timber without materially affecting its consumption in this country? I think ten shillings might be laid per load, without much affecting the consumption, because I think the quality would be improved of that which came here. What would be the effect of a fifteen shilling duty? Still more care in the selection of it. As to consumption, how would that be affected? I think the consumption at first in that ease would be lessened, but from better timber coming, ultimately it would have no effect to le'ssen the consumption, provided the duties of the Baltic remained as they were; I take that as the basis of my opinion. Would a twenty shilling duty materially reduce the consumption ? I think it would. To what extent do you think it would? I think, in time, it still would make but little difference. Would not the duty increase the price at which the timber could be sold in this country? Yes, certainly, I conceive it would. Would not its consumption depend upon the relative price at which the Baltic timber could be delivered in this country? Yes, certainly. But are you still of opinion, as expressed in one of your former answers, that with a relative difference of thirty shillings, as compared with European timber, the consumption of colonial timber would not be materially reduced? I conceive the quality would be much affected by being better from the duty ; but still I think the consumption would be nearly as much. Would not, for a gteat many purposes, the colonial timber be consumed at prices nearly equal to that of Baltic timber? I think for a few purposes. Have not very considerable establishments been formed at Quebec, for sawing timber, during the last few years? Very considerable. , You yourself have formed such an establishment ? Yes. What amount of capital have you invested in establishments at Quebec, for sawing timber? Our house has an establishment there, in which we have expended nearly forty thousand pounds ; I have another establishment of my own, where I have expended ten thousand potinds. Those two establishments have been formed principally with the view of sawing timber for exportation ? The larger one has ; the smaller one has not. Do you know that several other establishments have been formed at Quebec for the same purpose? I know there are; near, or at Quebec. At a very considerable expence? Yes. Have any steam-engines been sent from this country, for the purpose of driving machinery to saw wood? Yes. Is not Baltic timber at present at a higher price than American yellow pine, by nearly three pounds a load? Yes, nearly three pounds. Then, when you say American timber would come into consumption, with refer ence to a relative difference of price of thirty shi lings, you look forward to an improvement of quality? Yes, I look forward to an improvement of the quality, as well as an improvement of the trade likewise, because at present the trade is a very bad one. Does not the badness of the trade tend to depress the price of Baltic timber, as well as American timber ? Not so much, I think ; because, in the new buildings in and about London, I understand the American timber is excluded, so that there is not the same demand. In your judgment, would it not be most advisable to commence with imposing a small duty on American timber, and to increase it afterwards, as the improvement of its quality would enable it to bear such an increase? I think any permanent plan would be better than the present suspense in which the trade is placed, and I am of opinion, that a smaller duty might be more easily borne at first. Would not a system of gradually increasing duties induce the importers to be constantly spoiling the market, for the purpose of coining in with a large supply every year, to escape the increasing duties on the succeeding year? No doubt of it ; if you anticipate a larger duty, you would glut the market. Do not the duties operate as much as a bounty to the people of the United States as they do to our own colonial subjects? Yes, to a certain extent. Not to the same proportion ? No ; our own colonies receive an advantage which they do not, because shipped from and brought to our own ports, therefore, in some measure, the advantages are on the side of our own colonies. Has not the American timber trade in our own provinces been glutted by the imposition of those high duties? Yes, in a great measure. - Are you aware of any material advantage derived in a time of peace, from the permission afforded to the United States of sending their timber duty-free through our eoloiiies? No, I think it is a wrong measure. Does that practice still continue to any extent? Yes. Is it not confined entirely to the red pine? To that and to the oak, but more particularly to deals, which are principally the yellow pine. [Adjourned till to-morrow, at half-past one. Sal)Lad, 17 die Februarii, 1821. The Right Honourable Tnomas WALLACE, in the chair. James Bainbridge, Esq. called in ; and examined. Will you be so good as to state to the committee in what business you are engaged? As a general merchant, particularly with the United States of America and the British colonies. _ a 4••••• a••‘.. ././4 •••.•• _ Are you acquainted with the trade between this country and Russia? Generally ; I have some general knowledge of the trade between this country and Russia. Do you know at all what proportion the wood trade of Russia bears to its other exports? No, Ido not. Do you happen to know the proportions that the exports of Russia in wood bear to the exports of wood from the other countries of the north of Europe? Upon looking at the various papers that have been laid before the House of Lords, I find the average of importation of the article of timber, previous to 1807, from different ports of the north of Europe, was as follows : from Norway about one-fifth ; Sweden one-hundredth part ; Russia one-ninth ; and from Prussia two-thirds ; that was taking the average of nine years previous to 1807: In 1819, I find that Norway was reduced to about one-sixteenth; Sweden had increased to one forty-eighth; Russia was decreased to one thirty-second part, and Prussia one-fifth. The state of deals for the same period was as follows:--Norway enjoyed about two-thirds of the trade previous to 1807 ; Sweden one-ninth ; Russia one-sixth, and Prussia one fifth ; in 1819 I find that Norway was reduced to one-third, Sweden had increased to one-sixth, Russia to one third, and Prussia one-eighth. Do you attribute this great change in the proportions enjoyed by the countries of the north in the supply of wood to this country, to the duties that have been imposed ? I consider that the relative proportions of the exports from the different ports of the north of Europe, have arisen from the variation in the market, occa sioned by sometimes one portion of timber being required in this country, and sometimes another; no doubt the duty would operate so as to decrease the use of foreign timber, inasmuch as that from the British colonies came in competition with it. To which should you ascribe the greatest effect ; to the state of the market, or the imposition of the duties? I should think to the importation from the colonies, which has decreased the quantity from the Baltic; and materially reduced the prices of Baltic timber in the market. What effect do you think would be produced in the trade with the northern part of Europe, if a diminution of the duties were to take place? I should think it would increase the importation from the north of Europe.