The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-16 00:00:00

1 4 - 1 - ; . '" . " . "'"""...............---.. 1 , 4 t h 4 ;ta and constitutions of those persons who worked ' litets re taa ufactories. In all cases in which the maim fesgsrs exerci se d a c h o i ce i n th e se l ec tion of those N.7,21vh0 wor k i n their m i lls t h ey i nvar i a bl y c h ose wer e " females who had children, because those persons 0 s r .t fr aat they o,de4.!!sere inclined t o wor k regu l ar ly and longer, in might gratify their attachment towards We s PrtUg, by giving them more of the comforts and Ise".."essaries of life. With respect to the unmarried ttiq , ,he thought, from the information which he re tsepinFaul sources which were well qualified to form thei,,, k 'n upon the subject, the large manufacturers ite.i: Preferred the married females, although they Lear ill ne tallY speaking, untidy and slovenly. In the s z ,„ l 9 , out of 22,694 persons employed in mills in I,47vester and Stockport, in 42 mills, only 123 at ,salieeivgaith, age of 45 years, 16 of whom were retained by 4l f avour. 'raw. He had lately received a letter from M 1 h;,„":anw a gentleman there, which fully justi abou-". In asserting that the Bill for the limitation of akii.-"hin certain hours was likely to do good. A P.lspe'rosystem prevailed in France, but in Russia the kdil s ,,j,_ Put an end to the system which he (Lord Wits;.,,aad been for 10 years endeavouring to do away (10 4 ,,,,,V95ear.) The present system tended to promote 4i ,;"` m erY, intemperance, and vice. —(Hear, hear.) titig e .. , Mill in Stockport, out of 1,264 persons Ps thf.% not less than 846 were females. Set:;• s ubject (the condition of females in factories) o< the th ere l ette rs from several manufacturing towns; one it th e w as from a medical man at Stockport ; it bore thlt In S tatements made by surgeons in other places, Wep eti Nest women, working in factories with males, ‘iee°t able to a va il th emse l ves o f tho se opportunities Ned ''Y necessary, and which any one would under s- aithout farther reference to them. The state- We q ry t _ w auld not apply to all mills and factories, but 4 „ ebi arli of them were so managed as not to be ''t s ;mfr the censure. This was the testimony het, ',„,-itayner, a public medical officer at Stock illoie. shere were ' other evils to which he must woli 0 , The females were superseding the males in the bl 5 ' the factories. In consequence of this the men itti °bl igad to stay at home to mind the household Wkaatid the wh o l e b ur d en of supporting the family !itit t Z,wn on th e women . Oth er ev il s again rose from lat„ tt i ,,"u,nf thing s . Th e f e males were not only occupy -404, ' Place of the males, but acquiring all the avoca ktei:aaners, and habits of men. There were now in- Sk ns called female clubs ; fifty or sixty females, Net . " and single, formed a club, where they met L i her ostensibly e, for mutual protection, but in reality Ne tt , aa, sing, and smoke; and their language at these ig sometimes was represented as coarse, brutal, and disgust tisitt Wis tß Z get their wives to come home, and it was not it , for them to refuse ; on one occasion when a 1 44.,:`,nt with a c hild in his arms to fetch his wife, she Ni d A have t o k ee p th ee an d the bairns too," and b;Ot return. But now, let the House observe how Ilies, 7 1 Y the w omen were o ccu pin g the place of the I S Qs they had imposed on them the duties and pri ,l4o4o' supporting their husbands and families, vte t . i „.,`r , violence, and insubordination of every ,4sisa.ti'aln were introduced into their house piiO4 The woman said she would pay no at 'oh„ ui to her domestic duties ; the duty no longer .4 t wZ 11 13011 her ; if she had the toil and the burden 1h k ,..„" 41 d also h ave th e am usement. The same system o N to eqiia ll y injuriously on the children ; insubor- Ste t Z their parents was one of the most frightful Of the whole manufacturing system. If a child taC tr ected by its father, it would turn round, and say ). 141 Path, ..We have you to keep."—(Hear, hear.) 4,4 it t p g , said their parents had no right to interfere with kL.eraitrol, as, without their labour they could not I lsr i ' And this was said by children of tender years, ,bde k : l l' under thirteen and fourteen years of age. One goo de stated that when her husband chided his kViten for going to public-houses, they said e would not come home—they had their father tlit hie P , and not he them. And look what a ferocity of hesi t er this p ro d uce d i n th e women . Th e y might k li set the outbreak that took place in the year 1842, tir k. What ferocity the females exhibited on that occa -041441:le had been told by one female, the mother of IN A a, that c h urc h es an d c h ape l s were a ll o f no use , itlOat all the talk about schools and education was lb the L ,the children while young had no time to go fired ohe added that when he went to London she tli st that he would tell the House of Commons to „ 4 . all this, or the next time the women ciii turn out, and then let the soldiers fire the m if they dared ; they might depend on it fliS tie w u uld be a break-out if the House of Conair3ns ?It of t Make a change by taking the wives and daughters ks.ib t he factories and sending the men and big lads kkzear, hear.) ' What said Sir Charles Shaw, the Ilit's,, o t endant of police at Manchester? He said that Nit ti or , t aen, by bei ng employed in the factories, lost that itszl e ` lo which they were ordained, and became like the o% follow ers o f our army, bearing the form of ti,! , but actuat e d by the worst passions of men. As w omen were always the exciters and the leaders of ' L asirug men to violence in every outbreak in the , 4 1 „aeturing districts. The language they indulged lwes e 7af the in .. s t h orr id description, and while tli.y I llite ri " e mosslised themselves they were the contami 4l_ uf all witl- a their reach. With this he would ude the statement he had to make to that House ; ~is:"'w, he asked, would any one assent that such 44 should be permitted to exist ?—(Hear, hear.) f t 4 any one hesitate to lay the axe to the root Iss t , 4) tree s - or, at least, to endeavour to lop off Ili ti . °l the branches ? What arguments from general es would they adduce against his statements, "sei / d tt gaments drawn from peculiar circumstances ? N li It be sa id— sure l y it cou ld no t b e urged—that the IN," Condition of England begot peculiar resu i .ts? se ver this system prevailed, and it prevailed in many wsit td res in E uro p e , th e y found it pAeducing the same lti sz :. In 'Prance, in 1 .......5ia, in Germany, in Seitzer katt.:)-ad- in 1 assia. and, he might add, in the United tPers I :,.t"'' .. l•Nei ' the same results. He saw by the to t h -. ---- •`-‘h}liT. , ;..01,. that a Bit had been brought /N on e LegiSlGSltivirec.PMennsylvania, to place all the ( K r i ll under sixteen years 61 Kge, employed in . menu- L vet o lfs , under the protection of a ten hours' Bill. , 1 In tti th7r last, he visited a great establishment is Austria, kte ) 7 vicinity of Vienna, employing several hundred to hiL he went over it with the manager, and he detailed 14. Z all the severe mischiefs—all the severe conse e lil B- -- .. that he had now related; labour prolonged 16 Za ti , n u t u_rs a day—intense fatigue—enfeebled f 'lil t, l ocal consumptive disorders, and earlydeaths—yet,orms— . 'Ay had every advantage—the houses were ell N I ~t stood i n a fi ne open coun t r y, a nd in a completely t i t !erie: str iet. Nevertheless, so injurious were the conse ktithi' of the system itself, that the manager stated that i'l the ten . years, there would scarcely be in %Sa w neighbourhood one man able to carry 00 s, ' l ' He had found a great change among those N• 44l l7 l ere formerly opposed to him. In 1833, he could 1 , 4 procure twelve master manufacturers to support this) procure he could have them by hundreds.—(Hear, any They had already before them petitions signed NI), . u ldlowners praying for a limitation. There were k, lll Lincolnshire who also supported him—some h y + and many secretly, who hesitated to proclaim rerence. Even among the members of the Anti a_Nefti!' League he could boast of having many firm fils to supporters.—(Hear, hear.) Now, under all s', - , kV's, in which the question could be put, the sys %aal '`', ue abrogated or restrained. It formed a per " ri t r t ' l evance—it disturbed the order of nature, and s t .ite B of the l a b o uring man. By consigning females 01 wo rkshop, it obstructed them in the performance 1 1 'M et ; 14 domestic duties—it exposed them to almost I t . t i ve ult toil, at half the wages that would k.?k et . a n to the males for their subsistence. 14-`44 ,7 ~ nay, it almost annihilated, the whole arrange , sZtetlig domestic life and management ; thrift ,was lon4 t et impossible ; if the operatives had twice the cash fr f their wages, they would scarcely derive any 4 4 a t h°, lll it Everything ran to waste. If the woman %2 lku, it was deserted; the wife could do nothing for 01. 110 ,7 1 1 d or her family—she could neither cook, nor d A, p r take care of an infant. Everything must be it et s4 t and, in fact, everything was paid for out of i pa nty earnings ; and yet, afterall. everything was ) o/ 1 4"Y: done. Ignorance and recklessness were in 11111, , s ation. If the woman had no time to learn in her t; , 40 leisure in her riper years—if women were sZt it ,:',N_York in the mills and factories. everything 4_ of T l _ ruin, for the males could not discharge every Ice f o 'ae duties especially appointed by Provi- IL te r the females. There was no occasion for ta ~,,,e dilate at length on these topics ; SsiTits te t a amply stated in the report of the . 11 s E ‘kt i raployment Commission. Considering the tZ 1 ,1 . ( 1, 11 a physical point of view, would the House it ,7 tl w ar e ar to all these complaints and sufferings ? -4 " 1 4 04 - Y be indifferent to the physical effects of the k , Lay o f the rising generation ? They had the tec h L't Hawkins, who, in speaking of Manchester, , mie ad_ never seen a town in Europe, of which the h t t% u ...! nom exhibited such a degeneracy in form and 14 4 : Aony In the national standard. He had also the %.1 1 '.'ho '3 . f a usill-owner, once an ardent antagonist of lolls. said that if this system were continued, Lan ai. - as ) i N.,0 . T h u . l become a province of pigmies. —(Hear, thi%t u . it : !rnploment of females in the hardest toil Ai? fle Leristic of savage life, but in the midst of I N ,,ssa,, tp aient and civilisation they imposed on the 'llirs, daughters of this land burdens from which in the Otsi4 East they would be exempt—in slave-holding Si'' sank ‘. r in India. But every consideration of physical rkt a ' h t° • with the moral of ti c% 0 , nothing compared krtle s . Detthe subject. They poisoned every source tki t brtin e CtPpiness and of religion—they cut up root ;id ean th " 11 the relations of domestic life—they Irk ZeO i ts : v "knections and relations decreed by Pro- Iwt i ,tu„ itn : i " here was a time to live, a time to is%baer e n 't a tin to die—that they all admitted; but 4 4 y NI. not also t time to live for the discharge of li ad Jugal and itie, t arit „ Sarental duty. They might talk of kii4tltioZtjaest.t7ru. etiOlZaication and of the necessity of re --t was ' all in vain. There was no ss a 'atis sl -:!_;eln of education—there was no system of is_ aipi e. W,!katever to s Zi s % i til to_ Parents were o. toersede the influence of parental &tined by Providence to exer i4. wu,l_nst unlimited paver over the years of child -44 hat ivnether prince or peasant—all that was best, so k r ted .1 : highest in the csaracter of a man, he had N. 41 04 his mother's knee, or at least of titt e " e 'ci oa g . tAtoman, who, with that tenderness Isi tit % th e Peculiar Peculiar to the ssx, acted as the substi . di.. Yetk. Mother. Let them search the records of -.lit th ey*ttsr,,tuits would find that all the best and most th,f , eult t ‘,'l men, with very few exceptions, owed the h- t I lea ati " of their minds, and the discipline of iif, rie e ci se so rt ur . in to the affection and ' intelligence of a mother. ire ' I P , for s of moral and physical m i sc hi e f mus t b e %s ki p fail sake of the health of the females, the al ON of n+ the control of parents, the duties and laws usb noi se and ~,, . the dapericies of life, the relationship ~_l4 rote °f G" o r t wife ; for the moo of society and the - S, th at • Ina never would he believe, till 14 e isl:el Goad 1 1°Il e should have been given that night h, kils o f thevett--that there could be found within v could j o 11 . °u . of Commons one single individual nbviellti lisly and deliberately impose on ) 0" lol l° 01 THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 16, 1844. jesty's Government. Did the Noble Lord mean to pro pose a better mode of employment for those children ? The evidence taken before the Parliamentary Commit tee showed that thousands of children were picked up in the streets by the police as lost.—(Hear, hear.) Let them look to the reports respecting the employment of shirtmakers and milliners.—(Hear, hear.) If they in terfered with employment in mills and factories, they must interfere with employment in the dressmakers room and in Printing-house-s quare .—(H ear , hear, and a laugh.) They would be required to legislate for the number of hours which men were to labour upon the printing of a newspaper.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He thought that they ought well to consider all these things before they attempted to legislate.—(Hear, hear.) He was sorry that he did not see the Right Hon. Member for Newark in his place ; but he hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would acknowledge that he found the condition of the working classes in the manufacturing districts better than he expected.—(Hear.) Much as had been said of the Arcadian happiness and innocence of the agricultural districts, it was placed upon record in the returns made to the House, that many of those who had migrated from the agricultural districts to the manufacturing declared that they would prefer trans• portation to being compelled to return to agriculture. — (Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman concluded by reading an extract from the report of Mr. Senior, who stated that the manufacturing population were in a better con dition, moral and physical, than the agricultural, and the superiority was most striking in the girls.—(Much cheering and laughter.) Mr. STUART WORTLEY hoped the House would separate the question from party and irritating ques tions. He thought that it was the duty of the Legis lature to protect those who could not protect themselves. He believed that they might take further steps in this matter without injury to the manufacturing interest. His Right Hon. Friend said that he entertained great objection to legislating at all in reference to adults. He thought his Right Hon. Friend should have been the last person to urge that objection, since he himself pro posed to legislate in reference to females, including adults. He also argued that the effect of any public step of this kind would be to increase machinery. Even if this should be the case he did not know that they would be inflicting any great injury on the parties concerned. The probability was that in proportion as machinery was improved would there be an increased demand for manufactures, and, therefore, increased employment; but even if the demand was somewhat less than before, he still maintained that the workpeople would not be without compensation for this evil. His Right Hon. Friend spoke of the lowering of wages as a most serious objection to the proposed step. Why, in an interview which his Right Hon. Friend had had with most intel ligent persons of that class to which the Bill would chiefly apply, he had been assured that even if it appeared likely that there would be some reduction in wages, the workpeople were ready to encounter any such risk, be lieving that they would be repaid by the relief which would be thus given to them, morally and physically. Two years since it was stated, in the petition of 300 mill-owners of the West Riding, that no necessity what ever existed for the present number of hours. lie could not but express his regret that his Right Hon. Friend had thought it his duty to oppose this proposal. The population emptged in factories had a right to ask, that the labouißwhich was bestowed should no t b e continued through a longer period than was necessary. What that period was, he would not profess to say, but considering the state of society in the manufacturing districts, and considering the equity of this claim, he firmly believed that much time would not elapse before the Government and Parliament would arrive at the conclu sion,that increased protection was peremptorily demanded. Mr. WARD said no man in that House had listened to the Noble Lord who had introduced the motion more than himself, and he was certainly bound to say that all his feelings and all his sympathies were in favour of the course which he had proposed.—(Hear, hear.) But when he came to weigh the consequences of that course when he looked, not merely at that class whose interests the Noble Lord was ad vocating, but to the interests of the whole population of this country, he thought they could not admit the principle of interference to the extent which the Noble Lord carried it, without incurring the great est responsibility, both as regarded the general interests of the country and the welfare of the manufacturing classes. It was perfectly impossible to listen to the arguments of the Noble Lord, and follow him through that course of misery and degrada tion, which he had traced, spreading over so large a portion of their population, without wishing that it were in the power of that House to apply a remedy to the existing evils.—(Hear, hear.) But would any one say that they could apply a remedy ?—(Hear, hear.) Would any one say that it might not most seriously aggravate the evils which they wished to cure ?—(Hear, hear.) Why, the Noble Lord's argu ment, if it were good for anything, was an argu ment against the whole manufacturing system, and not merely an argument to change twelve hours into ten. Would a ten hours' Bill restore the women to those do mestic duties, their absence from which the Noble Lord so feelingly deplored ? Wouldlt restore the mother to her children ? Would it enable her to perform those maternal duties, the neglect of which the Noble Lord said was now the cause of so much illness, as well as immorality ? Would it stop the deterioration of the race ? And then, if they interfered with one class of manufactures, how could they deny the duty of interfering with all ? He could show the Noble Lord ten thousand times worse cases than those which he had pointed out. He could show him, among his own constituents, one branch of industry which absolutely limited life to a certain period. Yet these persons also were forced into such employment, and consoled themselves for the temporary disad vantages which they suffered by the almost certain result.—(Hear, hear.) Yet this was one of the sub jects upon which the Honourable Member who had just addressed the House exhorted gentlemen on his side to abstain from entering upon—he entreated them not to enter upon what he called a party and irritating sub subject.—(Hear, hear.) Why, it was not because it was a party and irritating subject, it was because it was a part of a great commercial question that the subject was introduced. It would be very easy to turn that discus sion into a corn-law debate. He did not wish to in troduce that subject, but he had a right to ask, what was the cause of the pressure which compelled people to submit to such hardships ? No man wou ld sacrifice his wife and children without a necessity for it—without such a necessity as overrode all those feelings which were as strongly implanted in the breasts of the working population, as in those of any Members of mu ch natural affection —a s grea t a d es i re t o re tain wo mantha I t n o h u e s House.—(Cheers.) domestic( Chee r s .) He believed that there was as circle, and to do justice to the off spring of marriages among the working classes, as among themselves.—(H ear , h ear .) Y et suc h was the s t a te of society, that they found men driven to things which, when they came to reflect upon their con sequences, struck them as almost criminal, and as blots in their social system.—(Hear, hear.) He did not see how they were to cure this evil by passing an Act to re strict the hours of labour. They enacted poverty by law, and then endeavoured to remove the consequences of their legislation by limiting the period of employment. Yet they told him that it was not fair to allude to the corn-laws, because it was a party and irritating sub ject. The corn-laws did affect materially the field of labour, and it was upon the permanent demand for la bour that the remuneration of labour and, consequently, the comforts of the operative classes, depended. Sir JAMES GRAHAM—That is the whole question at issue. —(Hear.) Mr. WARD resumed—lt was perfectly impossible to deny that the manufacturing classes were most injuriously affected by the operation of the corn-laws; that, in fact, they were the main cause of that very degradation which the Noble Lord was seeking to remove.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord said that even his motives had been doubted. He thought from his look at the time he pos sibly alluded to what he (Mr. Ward) had said out of that House, and as he would not say anything elsewhere which • he was not prepared to re iterate in that House, he begged to repeat what he had before stated. lie admitted the beautiful humanity, the touching sensibility of the Noble Lord's character; bat he maintained that he shrank from going to the bottom of the evil, that he was rather dealing with the symptoms than the disease itself.—(Hear, hear.) His opinion was that the Noble Lord's proposal was not a remedy for the evil which he pointedout.—(Hear, hear.) He perfectly agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, that the first operation of the proposed alteration would be an operation upon wages. He firmly believed that when they had a pressure of difficulty in sustaining life, and a demand for employment in almost every branch of in dustry, wages would first be affected, and that though free in name they would not be free indeed, be cause the capitalist could command labour upon almost any terms. If they forced the manufacturer to forego his profits, they would sharpen competition by tying him down as regarded labour. They must look, not at what was said in that House, but at what was said out of it by those who were favourable to the Noble Lord. What was said at the meeting which took place at Leeds? Dr. Hook, the vicar of Leeds, attended that meeting, and what was his view of the Ten Hours' Bill ?—(Hear, hear.) It was certainly a view most desirable to be accomplished, because it would relieve women from all employment. Would to God, he would say, they could do so. Dr. Hook said that the business of women was to make their homes comfortable.—(Hear, hear.) All that was very well ; but when he was told by Dr. Hook and Mr. Oastler that for every evil this Bill was a panacea, he thought he was entitled to ask whether the Noble Lord had made out that such was the case? — (Hear, hear.) He could not agree with the Noble Lord that this Bill was calculated to effect the objects intended, and he must, therefore, oppose the course he proposed to adopt. Lord F. EGERTON would vote for the motion of his Noble Friend, believing that if carried it would be pro ductive of great good. Ho had not arrived at this de termination without great consideration, and nothing that had been said that night had altered his opinion.— (Hear.) The observations that had fallen from his lion. Friend, the Member for Sheffield, appeared to him to be subject to this observation—that they would go to the principle of n on-interference in the subject. The principle might be most properly adopted in Many cases, but it was most wisely departed from in the pre sent case. He thought that the Hon. Member for Man chester, on the authority of a friend of his, had drawn rather too strong a picture with respect to factories. His Right lion. Friend, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had opposed this motion with great ability, and upon strong grounds. lie had stated that a diminution of wages might, and probably would, be the consequence of the measure.—(Hear, hear.) He thought their present interference with factory labour was far from satisfactory, and he was disposed to think the di minution of wages which might follow would be miti gated by the comforts that would be felt by the opera _ tires at the close of their day's work. The Noble Lord, the wives and daughters of England a burden of insufferable toil.—(Hear, hear.) He knew that dis claimers were but little regarded when uttered by per sons who were listened to with suspicion. He had been charged with acting from the single and fixed purpose of exalting the landed aristrocracy by depressing the manufacturing interests. He knew that his personal character was but of little importance, but it was necessary to clear himself of the charge, for the sake of the influence it might have on others. Dis trust of his motives might injure the cause he advo cated, for " Zeal grows cold, when Judgment grows severe." These unworthy motives had been attributed to him— most bitterly and angrily attributed to him. But he utterly denied the imputation. He would ask them if they could think him wicked enough to act from them— whether they could think him fool enough to pursue such a course ? Could any one in his senses do otherwise than believe that the permanent prosperity of the manufacturing body in all its aspects, physical, moral, and commercial, was not essential, not only to the welfare, -but to the very existence of the British empire. They did not envy the great manufacturers the increase of their political in fluence, their immense traffic, their stupendous wealth. " May peace be within your walls, and plenteousness within your palaces." "We ask you," concluded the Noble Lord, " but for a slight relaxation from grinding toil for a time to live and a time to die a time for the enjoyment of some of the com forts that sweeten life—time to perform some of the duties that adorn it.—(Loud cheers.) Therefore it is, that, with a fervent prayer to Almighty God, that he will be pleased to turn the hearts of all who hear me to justice and mercy, I noiv finally commit the issue of this question to the judgment and humanity of Parliament." —(The Noble Lord sat down amid loud cheering from both sides of the Houses. For some time before he concluded he seemed to labour under great exhaustion, aid in some passages was very indistinctly heard.) Sir J. GRAHAM said he never rose to discharge any duty in that House which he felt to be more painful or more difficult. It was rendered difficult by the eloquence of the Noble Lord, particularly by the sentiment of the passage which marked his conclusion. The Noble Lord had asked whether any man could be found in that House who would resist the proposal he had made ; and he had, by his appeal to their sense of justice and mercy, intimated, at least indirectly, that resistance to his mo tion was inconsistent both with justice and with mercy. He, for one, on the other hand, on the part of himself and of the Government, was bound to offer to the pro position of the Noble Lord his decided opposition. In doing so, it would be necessary to trespass for a short time on the attention of the House ; he would not at tempt to follow the Noble Lord through all the details he had addressed to the House. If he had thought it necessary to do so, he did not possess that detailed information which would enable him to do so. His Noble Friend said the time was now come when they should lay the axe to the root of the tree. Before doing so, he would entreat the Committee to consider what that tree was.—(Hear, hear.) If, as he suspected, it was the tree of the commercial greatness of the coun try, he was satisfied, though some of its fruits might be bitter, yet, that on the whole, it was productive of that greatness, wealth, and prosperity which made those small islands remarkable in the history of the civilised world, which, on the whole, diffused happiness amongst their great community, and which rendered the nation one of the atnost civilised, if not the most civilised, nation of the world.—(Loud cheers.) His Noble Friend begged of them not to turn a deaf ear to the cry of distress among the working population. He (SirJ. Graham) believed that the subject under con sideration was one of the gravest ever debated in Parlia ment—(Hear, hear)—because it involved the physical and moral condition of a large portion of the working classes, whose grievances were entitled to be redressed, if they could be redressed—(Hear, hear)—and if they could not redress them, they were, at all events, entitled to their most serious consideration.—(Hear, hear.) He was on this account the more anxious that the question should be fully, and dispassionately, and impartially dis cussed.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to steer clear of all angry topics.—(Hear, hear.) He had said that the physical and moral wellsbeing of the working popu lation of the country was involved in the question ; but, on the other hand, justice compelled him to say that the question of the commercial and manufacturing in dustry of the country was also involved.—(Hear, hear.) After listening to the statement of facts made by his Noble Friend, lie thought that the conclusion he had arrived at would be to propose the abolition of female and infantine labour altogether. But the question turned out to be—not whether females should be employed at all, but whether they should be em ployed for ten or twelve hours. At present children were not worked longer than eight hours a day. The proposition of his Noble Friend was, that the time should be reduced to six or six and a half hours. His Noble Friend had said truly that this was a question of detail, and not of principle. He therefore, thought it unnecessary to enter upon the principle. When the facts detailed by the Noble Lord had become known, and were brought before the House, an inquiry had been made in 1833, and it led to the correction of the abuses; , and regulations were made, imposing checks on the employment both of children and females. In the commencement of his speech the Noble Lord talked with something like despondency of his former labours, and at the conclusion of his speech he alluded to imputations, most unworthy imputations, upon the motives which actuated him. He (Sir James Graham) believed the motives of his Noble Friend were pure and benevolent in the highest sense.—(Cheers.) He did not believe that any public man laboured more honestly, more zealously, or with more single-minded ness of purpose.—(Hear, hear.) And so far from having to look back with despondency to his former exertions, he (Sir James Graham) thought it was owing to them that alterations of a most important kind had been made with regard to factory labourers.—(Hear, hear.) He Iv as a party to the late enactment on the subject of labour in factories, and he begged his Noble Friend to consider that, under that enactment, there was a close inspection of the nature of the labour in factories. Reports were made on the subject, and, if any abuses existed, public opinion was brought to bear upon them. —(Hear, hear.) A most important limitation also existed, with regard to the hours of labour. No child, under 9 years of age, could be employed at all ; no child, between 9 and 13, was allowed to work longer than 8 hours, and between the ages of 13 and 18, the la bour was limited to 15 hours, including 2 hours' relaxation. These were limitations existing under the present Bill. His Noble Friend dwelt very much on the improvements which had taken place in machinery, and the consequent increase of labour to the persons employed. The House would allow hi m j us t t o remar k, i n passing, what he be lieved to be the case, that though the provisions of the Factory Act were h um an e i n i n t en ti o n and were par belly in operation, yet he had no doubt their practical effect had been to stimulate improvements in machinery, for the purpose of superseding manual labour.—(Hear.) His Noble Friend had entered with great accuracy of detail into the workin g of machin er y, an d ca l cu l a t e d t h a t the distance travelled by each workman was thirty-seven miles in twelve hours. He (Sir James Graham) thought that this was physically impossible. His Noble Friend had given a description of the mode in which he made the calculation. But the Hon. Member for Oldham, who made a calculation of the same kind, came to the conclusion that only twenty miles was the distance tra velled. He was quite satisfied that the restriction of the hours of labour, imposed by the Factory Bill as it now stood, had the effect of improving machinery, The Noble Lord had made an important admission, which he begged of the House to bear in mind. He told the House that the working of machinery might be accelerated by one-third of its velocity. Now, if the hours were reduced by one-eleventh, or one-sixth, the consequence would be that the labour would be ren dered much more intense upon those who worked in the factory. His Noble Friend had said that the amount of female and infantine labour had an injurious effect upon the people. He (Sir J. Graham) believed that all severe labour must have a deleterious effect upon the health of the workers. But he was not disposed to call on the House to increase the stringency of the regulations on the subject. He said this in reference to what his Noble Friend had said of superanuations. As he had stated, the, consequences of the proposition of his Noble Friend would be to increase the rapi dity of machinery. This would call for in creased strength on the part of those employed, and younger and more active persons would be required to perform the duties incident to a factory life. The consequence of this would be a displacement of those now considered subjects for superannuation, and the evils which it was their object to cure would only be augmented.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend then drew a comparison between manufacturing and agricul tural labour, and said that the latter was a much more pleasing and healthy occupation. He (Sir J. Graham) believed it was a more pleasing occupation, but he enter tained grave doubts as to its being a more healthy one. —(Hear, hear.) When he took into consideration the inclemency of the weather to which the agricultural la bourer was exposed, his continuing in wet clothes, and other circumstances, it was doubtful to him whether, on the whole, the vicissitudes of the weather, to which he was sub ject, were not more injurious to hishealth than anything to which the manufacturing labourers were exposed.— (Hear, hear.) But he would ask whether there was any practical advantage in discussing the question?—(Hear, hear.) They had arrived at a stage of society when, without commerce and manufactures, this great com munity could not be supported.—(llear, hear.) They must foster commerce and manufactures in this country —(Hear, hear)—but they must avoid, as far as in their power, all the evils incident to th e i r ex istence. His :Noble Friend said that some of the master manufac turers and the labouring classes were anxious for his proposition, and that thrift and care were uncommon amongst them. He (fir James Graham) had seen this very day a deputation of master manufacturers and a deputation from the labouring classes. One of the gen tlemen who composed the deputation of the master ma nufacturers wad, he believed, an operative himself at one time. Now he was one of the greatest millowners in Lan cashire or the country, and he obtained his elevation by a thrift and economy which did the greatest honour to himself, and likewise reflected honour on his country. —(llear, hear.) He had by the force of his industry attained his present position. He also saw a deputation from the labouring classes, and he was so struck by the remarkable intelligence of one of the deputies, the man ner in which he stated his case, the propriety of his de meanour, the dispassionate manner in which he argued every point made against him, that he (Sir J. Graham) asked him if he was still an operative ? He said, " No, Sir ; I was lately an operative, but, by care, I have been able to have a share in a mill, and I am now a millowner to a limited extent ; but I am still trusted by my fellow labourers, and I here represent them, though not an operative myself." He must ask his Noble Friend whether his opinion that thrift and care were unknown amongst the manufacturers was not shaken by this ? He would admit that his own feelings, and he knew that the feelings of every gentleman present were in sympathy with, and wished for the motion of his Noble Friend, and if he believed it to be consistent with the good of the community, end the interests of the manu facturing labourers themselves, he would not hesi tate to give his support to the proposition. With regard to the master manufacturers themselves, they consented to all the restraints which this Bill sought to impose on them, but they did so on the understanding that the Go vernment were resolved to stand firm after having fully and fairly considered the subject. He was quite aware that the Chamber of Commerce of Manchester would have entertained this question, if he had not believed that her Majesty's Government would resist this particular point. With regard to the feelings of the workmen themselves, he did believe there was that un animity amongst them which his Noble Friend supposed. He had high authority for saying that the labourers, themselves naturally enough stimulated by the desire of gain, invariably preferred going to those masters where there was most work done, than to those where the work was limited. On this very day he had received two communications from working men, one in favour of the proposition of his Noble Friend, and the other as decidedly opposed it, declaring that the seventh clause was decidedly hostile to their interests. In the beginning of his speech, his Noble Friend said that he would not enter into the commercial part of the argu ment. Now this appeared to him the most important consideration. If he could show satisfactorily to the Committee that the inevitable effect of an abridgment of the time of labour would be to diminish the wages of those employed, then he would say that, with regard to the interest of the working-claseses themselves, rightly under Stood, there never was a graver question debated in Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) The improvements which took place in machinery in latter days were so rapid, that t had to be renewed in twelve or thirteen years. lie was told that the master manufw;turers had recently to pull down and re-erect machinery not worn out ; machinery, in fact, that was quite perfect, and had to substitute for it new machinery with increased powers, in consequenee of the improvements that were continually being made. Now the ca pital expended in manufacturers, as well as the interest on that capital, depended on the use of machinery. Let them see, then, what was the ques tion. It was necessary that they should replace ma chinery in the course of every twelve or thirteen years, and they were now discussing whether they should abridge by one-sixth that period in which capital was replaced and outlay restored. Why even the period of twelve years was hardly sufficient, and if they abridged it by one-sixth they would render impossible the at tainment of the advantages under the present system. The first and inevitable effect of such an interference would be the lowering of wages by the mill-owners. That principle was thoroughly understood, not only by master manufacturers, but by intelligent operatives, who constituted the great majority of their class. In con firmation of this opinion, he would read them the opinion of a person who was very intimate with the subject, and which would put the matter in a clearer point of view than he could hope to put it before the House—he re ferred to the report of his excellent friend, Mr. Homer, presented in 1841—a gentleman who discharged most faithfully the duties of Inspector, and who communi cated to the public in the most faithful manner the in formation he had obtained. In discussing the question of the restriction of the hours of work, he said that he had made an estimate of the loss which a cotton -mill would sustain by working eleven instead of twelve hours a day ; by working eleven hours a day the loss would amount to 150 L, while by working only ten hours a day it would amount to no less than 1,530/. It was not a mere doubling of the loss, but it proceeded by geometri cal progression. Unless the millowner could obtain a proportionately higher price for his commodities he must be forced to reduce the wages of his workmen or abandon his trade. The reduction of wages in the case of work ing only eleven hours per day would be 13 per cent., while in the case of ten hours it would be nearly 25 per cent. That was the statement of a competent judge, and he (Sir J. Graham) believed it was perfectly correct. The question they were discussing was, whether through out the manufacturing districts they would make one sud den and general fall in wages to the amount of 25 per cent. His belief was, that the adoption of the motion of his Noble Friend would produce that effect, and so, be lieving, he could not recommend the House to depart from the present enactment, which limited labour to twelve hours. With respect to the failure of health in the manufacturing districts, his Noble Friend had very much deceived himself. The subject was a most im portant one, but unless he (Sir J. Graham) was very much misinformed, it would be found to be the fact, that when there was full work, and even some excess of la bour in point of time beyond the twelve hours, with, however, good wages, the health of the manufacturing districts was in a satisfactory condition. On the other hand, with short time, even shorter than the number of hours proposed by his Noble Friend— when there was a failure of demand for manufactures, and the manufacturing interests were distressed in conse quence, as happened a few years ago, with even so short a period of work as eight hours, instead of ten, the loges being relatively low, it was found that then disease spread through the manufacturing districts, joined with immorality and distress. He believed that the adoption of the motion of his Noble Friend would invert the whole order of proceedings in those districts, and a measure founded upon it would be violently resisted. As far as the working-classes were concerned it would be fatal to their best interests, and inconsistent with the peace and happiness of this country; while the working-classes would enjoy the benefit of a shorter time of labour, their wages would be proportionally reduced, and thus one of the greatest evils would be inflicted on the community; and although his (Sir J. Graham's) feelings and wishes were with his Noble Friend, still, his sense of duty never more clearly pointed out to him the course he ought to pursue than on the present occasion, and, therefore, re luctantly, but firmly, he must resist the proposition of his Noble Friend. After a few words from Lord ASHLEY in explanation of some matters which he had stated in the course of his speech, Mr. MILNER GIBSON said he had received many communications in reference to the Bill proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and although there was a complete recognition of the principle adopted in factory legisla tion, yet at the same time there had been manifested, as far as his knowledge went, from all parts, both among operatives and master manufacturers, a willingness to take the measure which her Majesty's Government had committed to the House. That approbation might not, perhaps, extend to every little matter of detail, but it certainly did to that important alteration which the measure introduced, namely, the diminution of the hours during which children should be employed from eight to half-past six ; and also the limiting the labour of young persons and women of all ages to twelve hours. That proposition had been received cheerfully, as he was told, by master manufacturers and also by the operatives. With regard to the proposition of the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire (Lord Ashley), he could not say it was within his knowledge that there was any approbation of it, either amongst masters or operatives. He had made it his business to inquire and ascertain, to the best of his ability, what the feelings of the operatives themselves were upon this proposition of shortening the hours of labour, and he had been told by many of them, evidently intelligent and thinking opera tives—persons who influenced their class that they had considered it an improper interference with the value of the only property they had to dispose of, namely, their labour, and that they could not agree to that proposition whatever might be their necessities—whatever the emergencies of working hard to earn a livelihood—that they could not agree to being prevented working twelve hours per day in a factory whenever employment offered itself.—(Hear.) It might be thought that by preventing young persons and women of all ages from working more than ten hours a-day, they did not interfere with the labour of male adults. But that was not so. For to enact such a limitation of work to them was in effect to enact that the factories themselves, the machinery, the engines —that, in fact, the whole of the operations should not go on more than ten hours every day. They were not solely dealing with the labour of women and young persons, but also with the labour of adults, and the application of fixed capital, which had been so ably dwelt upon by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State. The labour of young persons and women was inseparably connected with that of adults, and the effect of diminishing the hours in the manner proposed would be an injury inflicted on the great staple of manufactures of not less than twenty per cent. The Noble Lord seemed not to think that an important part of the question, but he (Mr. M. Gibson) maintained that it was a most important part. For if they destroyed the profit of the manufacturers, they destroyed the manufactures altogether. By cutting oil' two hours of the labour of those persons, they might in effect cut off all labour from them, and the means of obtaining a subsistence. So that, with the most bene volent motives, they might, in fact, inflict the greatest of all possible evils upon the very classes they wished to benefit.—(Hear, hear.) As the Right Hon. Gentleman alluded to the great importance of not destroying the profit of the manufacturer, he would take the liberty of reading the remarks of Mr. Senior upon that question. That gentleman, accompanied by some others, went down in the year 1836 t o th e manu f ac t ur i ng districts, with a view to ascertaining the effect of factory legisla tion, and of making observations upon the circumstances of the factory population. The document was dated March 28th, 1836, and was addressed to Mr. Poulett Thompson. (The Hon. Gentleman then read the paper, which showed that in working twelve hours per day the last hour was that which turned in any profit, and he then proceeded to argue that if that hour were cut off the profits of the capitalist must go with it, and conse quently he must lose the means of employing the opera tives, whose means of subsistence would be thus destroyed.) With respect to the statement of the Noble Lord as to the number of miles walked each day by the piecers, he (Mr Gibson) heard that statement with surprise. From the practical measurement of Mr. Greg and others, and not from any mathematical theory, it had been ascertained that the number of miles walked per day by the piecers was eight, and not twenty. With respect to the question of health, the consequences of residence in crowded towns were often attri buted to the influence of the factory system. It had been said that it was not so much the hours of labour as the unwholesome influence to which they were subjected during the labour. He aid not believe that there was any truth in the statement. Mr. Horner had said that the great cause of the evil was the superabun dance of labour. Why not then put the axe to the root of the evil, by increasing the field of employment, and enabling the working classes to protect themselves? If the landowners were truly desirous of abridging the labour and increasing the comforts of the working classes, why did they not come forward with a measure for enabling them to get bread cheaper, and repeal the corn-laws ? As to the employment of children, the pre sent law protected children under of the age of 13 ; and these were still further protected by the Bill of her Ma- in conclusion, said, that he should ♦ote for the motion of his Noble Friend. Lord HO WICK said he did not know of any occasion on which he had found so much difficulty in making up him mind how to vote as upon th e present. Ten hours was no inconsiderable portion o f l a b our , a t an y t ra d e or business, for women and children, and when was added to that the time employed in going to and coming from that labour, and the hours requisite for meals, a great inroad was made on every twenty-four.—(Hear, hear.) On the other hand, while pondering over the truth of probablyam en d mp pursuing s t u i n o g f the th le%l igeNoeons apparently .b rs l e e t Fw o oh r rti d eo , n t h h mwo e iougmgh w het a sn their h,ee r and soonervery these things, he could not but refl ec t th a t, by su pp or ti ng the l o e r gisla la ti t o e n r a r p e p d l u i c e e d children only, yet indirectly it most certainly applied to adults—(Hear, hear)—and they would render it prac tically impossible for the mill to go on beyond the time at which those women and children were employed.— (Hear, hear.) Then if that were true, and the opera tives themselves who sought a ten hours' Bill admitted such would be the result—the remark which had fallen from the Hon. Member for Manchester, (Mr. M. Gib son) was equally true, that if they adopted the limita tion of adult labour with regard to factories, it was not easy to see where that li m it a ti on was t o s top. The question was not now whether they would establish a principle or not. It had gone too far for this. For whether the House approved the amendment or the original Bill, it had equally taken on itself to decide what number of hours people ought to work during the day. The question was now really reduced to this — they had found it necessary to interfere by the pressure of an overruling necessity, in order to declare what should be the length of labour to which a certain class of artisans should be subjected—whether it should be ten or twelve hours. For his (Lord Howick's) part, then, he could not help saying that ten hours was as much as that House ought to allow.—(Loud cheers.) He had fully felt the force of the observations which had fallen from the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir J. Graham), but on fairly weighing the good and the evil the balance of evil appeared to him to be in favour of a twelve hours' Bill, and therefore he must vote against it. It had been said that if they took this decision with respect to factory labour they would be called upon to go further. He (Lord Howick) was not without fear that such would be the case ; and they must deal with it when it arose. The origin of the evils which they were now attempting to remedy was to be found in the intense competition which prevailed ; and he agreed with the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson) that they would not entirely remove those evils unless they diminished this competition of labour and capital, by enlarging the field for employment.— (Hear, hear.) This was only to be effected by breaking down those artificial barriers and restrictions by which labour and capital were now hedged in and confined, and unless they were prepared to do this, they must be pre pared to see that competition become greater and greater. He feared they could not expect that Parliament would do this at present, though ultimately he was satisfied this would be the case.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he for one would take the only step which could be applied, not that he looked upon it as approach ing to an effectual remedy ; but that until such could be obtained, he felt bound to assist in any measure by which it might be hoped to palliate the evil. It cer tainly did appear to him that in the absence of a real remedy, they should at least adopt such checks as were in their power ; and in that view it was that he was pre pared to vote for the measure of the Noble Lord (Ash ley) in preference to that of the Government.—(Hear.) At the same time he must say that this and every other discussion on the question had made him feel how in competent the House was advantageously to deal with subjects of that nature.—(Hear, hear.) It was, he thought deserving the consideration of gentlemen on both sides of the House, whether they could not meet the difficulty of introducing regulations for the guidance of certain trades, by contriving some means by which the parties themselves interested in those trades might be brought together, and by which their arrangements might be enforced. It appeared to him (Lord Howick) they might consider whether the great trades might not be organised, so that the interests of both master and man might.be represented each by its own class, and thus regulations be made, by mutual understanding of the two classes, which it appeared to him that Parlia ment was unable to do with anything - like advantage. He was the more impressed with this idea when he saw the way in which the trades' unions had worked. He admitted that, in many eases, those unions were dan gerous bodies. They had, in fact, flourished and exer cised great powers in opposition to the law, but, looking at the manner in which they had maintained them selves, and had exercised their power, he could not but conclude that they had- originated from a necessity for organisation which was felt by the trades . themselves : - (Hear, hear)—and if they were so orgamsed, would it not be a great advantage to have them, instead of, as at present, acting as bodies unrecognised by the law, and frequently exercising their powers by intimidation —would it not be, he repeated, a great ad vantage to see them recognised by the law, and exercising powers over which, not the working classes only, but the employers also, should have some powers of control ?—(Hear, hear.) Such institutions might afford useful assistance in enforcing the observance of such regulations as those which they were now called on to adopt. He admitted that if the Bill passed they would be establishing a principle for the future regulation of factories, and of other trades, which they must be pre pared to carry further; and he trusted that those gen tleman who were more able to come to a practical con clusion on this subject than he was, would endeavour to devise some means by which they might be enabled to meet the difficulties of this question.—(Cheers.) Lord SANDON would not enter into any details on this question. On one point, however, he would observe. Hon. Gentlemen opposite had no right to say that the existence of the corn-laws had rendered it necessary to legislate upon this subject, for in the countries in which no corn-laws existed, or at least where none existed for any practical purpose—in Russia and the United States, for instance—they were as much com pelled to protect the labouring population by enactments of this nature as they were in this country. This question had been brought before the House before the corn-laws were in existence. The late Sir Robert Peel had called the attention of the Home to this subject in the year 1815, either before the corn-law had passed, or so immedi ately afterwards that it could not have produced any effect; therefore, whether the corn-laws were right or wrong, it was impossible for Hon. Gentlemen opposite to contend that the necessity for resorting to legislation on this subject—that all the evils of which they complained were caused by the want of a free trade in corn. He agreed in the views of his Noble Friend the Member for South Lancashire, and he had every expectation and hope that their legislation on this subject would be successful. In fact, the principle was already in operation in many of the measure ohiteeimaoi manufacturing rsniutriagebtahy orowteue districts. In Leeds they had ne ver worked more than eleven hours, while their neighbours w e re workin g twelve hours, and, notwithstanding the intensity of the compe tition, weeks that had uethridse wtte po werok never ic hit o f found any to take necessity s ix m f o o n r t resorting hs indoing. to twelve hours' labour. Surely, if they were able to do this , it : could not be injurious to others to insist upon them not working nd t a g o r o fee q a m t o e aa r cl ss e ie n x te t h e r y. n e t e ? mlip It H ho y e i smp b e e ni 1 1 it i e Ao v , fe e r d l ea bp t o h a o a s sr t e t a, h e i i dt s 7ould no longer in the power of manufacturers to execute in They would not be able to execute a large order at once, and let their factories remain idle during the rest of the year. By the operation of the Bill the demand for labour would be spread over the whole year. He admitted that it might produce some effect upon wages, but he esteemed something more highly than wages, and he believed that persons with 12s. a week, provided the hours were comfortable—having, consequently, no temptation to wander into a public-house—would be far better off than they would be with 15s. week under the present system. They would be better fed, better clothed, and more moral, if they had less labour and only 12s. a week, than they would be with 16s. a week, if they were overworked. He had heard it stated that they would, if they consented to this measure, be obliged to carry the principle further. But that which they now wanted to establish in the factories, was already the custom of the country in all other trades. The manufacturers might taunt the agri cultural employers that their labourers were not better fed or better clothed, but at any rate they were not overworked. If during the pressure of harvest women and children were em ployed in the fields, they went to their labour some hours after the men, and they were relieved from work some time before them. The usual hours of labour, except in harvest time, were from six in the morning till six at night, and the same were the hours of employment in other trades. If it should have the effect of limiting the hours of adult la bour he should not be sorry for it; and he believed that the manufacturers would be benefited rather than injured by making this a ten hours' Bill. He was aware that apprehen sions were entertained on the subject. Parties interested in any measure always entertained exaggerated apprehensions. In dealing with the tariff they had had to combat the exaggerated apprehensions of parties who believed their interests would be affected. Those apprehensions were, be admitted, honestly entertained, but still they were exaggerated. It would be better at once to come to a final settlement of the question than to subject themselves to having it made again a subject of agi tation by the labouring population, who were too high-spirited, too sensible, and too well acquainted with their condition to suffer their wives and their children to be longer degraded. He was prepared to vote with his Noble Friend the Member for Dorsetahire for a ten hours' Bill, as the measure more likely to put a stop to the agitation than leaving the question unsettled.—( Hear. ) Mr. BRIGHT would not have trespassed on the House again after the great length at which he had addressed them the other night, but, being intimately connected with the branch of industry which this measure was calculated to affect, and having passed all his life among the population who would be affected by this Bill, he hoped the House would admit that he had;some claim to be heard on the subject. He had listened to the speech of the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire, with surprise. The Noble Lord had made the same speech, or something very much like it, upon a former occasion, and he (Mr. Bright) bad not supposed that any change had taken place in the Noble Lord's opinions. He thought the Noble Lord had taken a one-sided view — an unjust view—not inten edleaseissiwonhieouf tionally perhaps, but a view which was not borne out by the facts—a view which did not correspond with the Fact ory . In thatp e t House,or' s Re wouldrt— - a view be moa w t hpircehj prejudicial i e t i the Noble Lord intended to serve. The Right Hon. Baronet, pre sumed, the promoter of that 8 . i.1 in that House, should, a i l n to that very v t e h r e y he thought, in his speech have given some reason why a new the Secretary fur the Home Department, who was, he able to discover any reason why the Factory Bill now Factory Bill was introduced at all. He confessed he was in operation operation had failed. He was aware that the Inspectors had said that it could not be fully carried out. The only reason why the present Act could not be carried out was because it could not possibly be applied to a trade so ex tensive and intricate as that to which it applied. He was not one that would venture to say that the manufacturing districts of this country were a paradise. He believed that there were in those district evils, very great and serious evils, and he had been no party to their concealment. But whatever evils did exist, he maintained that they were evils referable to other causes than the existence of the factories and long chimneys. Most of the statements which had been made that night at the table, by the ,Noble Lord ( Ashley), might be just as applicable if read with respect to Birmingham, or this Metropolis, or the northern districts of the country. But in a population so large as that of Lancashire and York shire, where towns were so numerous as almost to touch each other, all these evils were more observa ble than in a popula tion less densely crowded together. He would prove, from docu ments at least as worthy the attention of the House as those which had been read by the Noble Lord, that what the Noble Lord bad stated was not the truth with respect to the state of t the manufacturing districts. Every Honou -able Gentleman would recollect that a very large proportion of the authorities which the Noble Lord had quoted gave neither dates nor names, but he intended to give in most cases the dates and in all cases the names; and he thought that no Hon. Member would deity that the authorities he should quote would be worthy of attention. He would go over the ground of com plaint of the Noble Lord, although at the risk of being tedious, but considering that for two hours and a quarter they had listened with the utmost possible attention to the charges of the Noble Lord, he therefore thought that he had a right, con nected as he was with that population, and with those districts' to claim the attention of that House to the statements which he should offer to the house as counter-statements to those of the Noble Lord. And, first of all, with respect to the health o the persons employed in the co tto n t ra d e . M r . Har rison, who was the Inspecting Surgeon for Preston, said that he found the average amount sickness, among the children he had examined, was f our d ays eac h, an d t h at th at sickness was not generally caused by factory labour. He said he was not a little surprised to fi n d so f ew c hild ren suffering from accidents which had been cans 'd by mac hi nery . Con sidering the protection which was given in the factories he expected that accidents would h.- of less frequent occurrence thin they had hitherto been. He said that he had examined 1,650 children, and not one of them was deformed. Now this was the statement of the inspecting surgeon of one of the districts to which the Noble Lord had referred. The Factory . Inspector's Report of 1834 confirmed Mr. Harri son's view with respect to the eff e ct s of f ac t ory l a b our . H e (M r. Bright) did not see why that report was not j ust as goo d evi dence now as it was in 1834, considering the improvement with respect to the management of factories in the North of England. That report stated that factory labour was not injurious to bealth and longevity compared with other employment. Mr. Sanders, a factory inspector, said, " it appears in evi dence that of all employments to which children are sub ject, that carried on in factories is among the least laborious, and the least unwholesome." Mr. Horner, in July, 1834, in his report, said it was gratifying to be able to state that he had not had a single complaint laid before him, either on the part of masters against servants, or servants against masters ; nor had he seen or heard of an in stance of injury to health arising from factory employment. Mr. Harrison, on the 24th July, 1834, in speaking of the em ployment of children, said that the eight hours which the chil dren passed in the factories were passed more beneficially to themselves than if they were at home. Now there were trades in this metropolis, to which the Noble Lord had adverted, the employment in which was most detrimental to health.— ( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Bright) had some exacts from a report which had been made respeeting the condition of the persons employed, and he would read one or two of them to the House, It was supposed that 15,000 young women were employed as milliners in London. The report stated these young persons were employed about four months in the year, or during the fashionable season. Their regular hours of work were 15 in number, but were often extended to 18. In many establishments the hours of working during the season were unlimited, the young women getting six, sometimes four, and three, and occasionally only two hours allowed for sleep out of the 24, and very frequently they were compelled to work all night. The Sub-Inspector described the labour of these young women as quite unparal leled in the history of manufacturing pursuits. Sir James Clark, the eminent physician, in his evidence, said that this system had the most pernicious effect on the health of the young women. As he ( Mr. Bright) was coming down to the House that afternoon a gentleman placed in his hand an ac count of a fact which had come under his knowledge within the last few days, as to a girl, only seventeen years of age, with whom 401. was paid to a dressmaker at the west-end of the town as a premium for three years' apprenticeship. From Friday four weeks until Friday last she had little more than four hours' rest out of the twenty-four. On Sunday week she worked from two o'clock on Saturday morning until Sunday morning at eight o'clock—a period of thirty hours—without any rest. The gentleman who had care of the girl, and who placed her in the situation, fetched her back, on account of excessive cruelty; and this was not at all unusual. If he were to state the party for whom this particular dress was made, at which this unfortunate creature worked for thirty hours without any cessation, and even on the Sabbath, it must cause great pain and astonishment elsewhere, although the in dividual in question was by no means cognisant of the fast. That was something worse than factory labour—there was something worse than working twenty-two or twenty-four hours. The same circumstances that produced this misery were the cause of the distress of the labouring population of the kingdom. All these evils came from absolute want. Did they did not hear of actual starvation? And the House passing a clause in any Act in the same direction was nothing more than plastering the sores which their own legislation had created, instead of going to the root of the evils— evils which some of her Majesty's Ministers knew full well the cause of as well as the majority of the Hon. Members of that House. The next question to which the Noble Lord had adverted was that of accident. The Noble Lord drew a most deplorable pic ture of the loss of life in the manufacturing districts. On this subject the Noble Lord had made gross misstatements. The Noble Lord mentioned Mr. Greg's name; now he would read an extract from Mr. Greg's letter, which he had received the other day, with reference to his own establishment. He said— " It is difficult to believe how this opinion can be so prevalent that accidents are of such frequent occurrence i n mi ll s as to justify the special interference of the Legislature ; why it is not only not the fact, but the very reverse of everybody s ex perience. In our own mill whi c h h as now ex i ste d f or seventy years, and in which four hundred hands are em ployed, there never was but one limb lost, and that was during play. Not one person's life was lost inside the mill, while no less than four fatal accidents have occurred within 20 yards of the mill during a shorter period. Why, the carter is exposed to more danger than 500 factory men. I hold a farm in Hertfordshire. I had not it in my possession more than two years when a carter was killed. In my two farms there have been more fatal accidents in three years than in the mill during all my experience." The Noble Lord said he would bring documents from infirmaries and dispensaries. He wished the Noble Lord to bear in mind that these dispensary returns were most fallacious guides in this point, because they did not state how the accidents occurred, but who the men were who met with the accidents. Mr. Greg said that two persons bad worked for him ; that they had a quarrel in a pnblic house, and each man had a leg broken. These poor fellows were taken to the infirmary, and the entry was "Two factory hands—broken legs," although machinery had no more to do with the accidents than the Noble Lord himself. He had also received a communication from Mr. W. R. Greg, brother to: the gentleman last-named, in confirmation of the document already quoted. Only two fatal accidents had occurred in this factory during seven years. One of these was his carter, who was run over on the high road. The other was drowned in the pond at the rear of his mill. In truth, factory labourers were less liable to accidents than any others. Forty people had been killed in the mines last year, and there were more lives lost in the Government powder-mills at Waltham than at all the factories in Stock port and its neighbourhood for two years. Another mill owner at Bolton stated, in a letter to him (Mr. Bright), that for four years no fatal accident had occurred in his mill, and only one young man had received such an injury in th e h an d that the member was obliged to be amputated. He had received another communication from Mr. Samuel Ashton, a very large manufacturer. From his statement it appeared that from 1819 to 183 400 hands were employed ; from 1830 to 1855, 900 hands, and from 1835 to 1844, 1,200 hands ; and yet from 1819 to 1844, there was not a single fatal accident in his manufactory. With another spinner who, from 1812 to 1844, had employed from 300 to 400 labourers, no fatal accident had occurred. By Mr. Ashton, who had an interview that day with the Secretary of State for the Home Department, he was informed that he had employed for thirty years from 400 to 1,400 men, and only two fatal accidents had occurred—one to an overlooker, who did not take proper care of himself—the other death was so mysterious and so like self-destruction that it could not be called an accident. Another letter from a manufacturer who had employed 560 from 1824 to 1844, had only one fatal acci dent. Another manufacturer stated that no fatal accident had oc curred in his mill, but one carter connected with the establishment had lost his life by accident during thirty-five years. He could bring statements from every district of the cotton trade to dis prove the statements of the Noble Lord. Was it not trifling with the House—was it not unworthy of the Legislature—was it not trifling with the country—to waste the time of the House in passing Acts of Parliament, appointing public pro secutors to proceed against manufacturers on the supposition that accidents had occurred, which never took place, and which were never likely to take place ? He had returns from Stock port and Manchester—the coroners' returns. They stated that, during the whole year—from the 11th of February, 1842, to the 11th of February, 1843—there was no one person killed by anything connected with shafts in mills, and only two per sons by machinery in factories. .When they considered all the mills in that enormous district.# and the scores of thousands employed, and that only twoAives were lost, was it not absurd to pass Acts of Parliament to prevent the re occurrence of accidents? Why, there were five carters killed for one factory labourer. The reports from Stockport were still more decisive. From February, 1842, to February, 11843, there was no person killed by machinery, although that district included twenty-six townships. He thought, after these statements, no Hon. Member would leave the House under the impression that accidents were more common in manufacturing than in other districts. It was manifest that the labourers in the manufacturing districts received higher wages than any other class of labourers ; therefore it was absurd for the Noble Lord to speak of the cruelty of the millowners towards their employes—their labourers were too well off, and too independent to submit to cruelty. Their position enabled them to cope with the resistance of their masters. As to the morality of the factory people, he could cite one or two authorities to which even the Noble Lord would pay deference. The whole of his statements were most calumnious.—(" Order, order "from the Ministerial benches. ) The Noble Lord had introduced some such statements. Ile had read but little about the state of education in the manufac turing districts, or the religious instruction which prevailed in Leeds ; but in that town there was a larger proportion of free sittings in the churches and chapels, and all of which were better filled, than in the whole of 'Westminster and the Metro polis. Again the schools and chapels had proportionately in creased, much more than the population, and that was a proof that both religion and education were progressing and not re trograding. He could afford many proofs to the Noble Lord of the fallacy of Isis statement , if h e (Mr. Bright) were not unwilling to detain the House, from communications which had been made to him witho ut an y a pp lication on his part. However, he felt bound to tr es p ass on them for a short time. In a large establishment between Bolton and Blackburn, o u t of 1,382 hands employed inthe mill, the whole of them could read and write, and a majority who could do so well. He as serted distinctly, and without fear of contradiction, that the ma nufacturers of Lancashire and the north of England had done more r the education of the children of their dependents than all of the landed proprietors who now sought to throw obloquy upon the characters of the manufacturers of the north. lie should particularly call the attention of the Noble Lord the Mem ber for Dorset to a letter from a manufacturer at Staley bridge, which described a meeting, the objects of which were to promote education. The meeting was composed of members belonging to the different Independent congregations of that town, and at it 2,0001. was subscribed. Out of this sum the operatives subscribed no less than 2501. He challenged any Noble Lord or Hon. Gentleman to show a parallel case to this which occurred in any agi icultural county, and in which the operatives or labourers entered into such a subscription for the purpose of promotitig the objects of education. He thought Mr. Horner had made a strange mistake, and done much in justice to many in his report, and that he Is as also assisted and attempted to be borne out in that mistake by a clergy man of the Established Church. Neither of those parties had made the slightest allusion to the Dissenters, who were most numerous in that town.—(Some interruption here oc curred in consequence of cries o f " Time, time" front the 'l',.ry benches.) He could state, on the authority of the Messrs. Chambers, the well-known publishers of Chambers' Journal, that its circulation amounted to 8 . 5,000 a week, out o f w hi c h 25,000 were circulated in Lancashire, while perhaps they had not a circulation of fifty for their publication in Hampshire. It was in Lancashire, that the London and Edinburgh publishers found the most circulation for all the works which emanated from their press. He should be very sorry to attempt to conceal the sufferings of the population i n the factory districts. Indeed, he came to London before he had the honour of a seat in that House, to impress upon her Majesty's Government the extreme misery which pervaded certain districts. But still he should assert that taking the whole island, and considering the various fluctuations which tended to depress all classes, that the rate of wages and the physical comforts of the manufacturing classes were higher than those of any other trade or occupation in this country, and he was prepared to establish this assertion. —(Cries of " Time, time," and " Question," from the Mi- nisterial benches.) He should state a few facts in support of this assertion.—( Renewed cries of " question.") He would state these facts, and although he should not publicly meutisn the names of those parties, yet he should give them in private to any Hon. Gentleman. If all the statements of the Noble Lord were true, they would justify any course of legislation; but he denied their truth. He had a letter from Bolton from one manufacturer, which proved that the proportion of females in his mill was in the ratio of 131 men to 59 females, and that after the age of 21, the greater number of fe males went home to attend to their domestic duties. In the whole of that establishment there were not three mar ried women employed, though seven or eight hundred persons were engaged in it. He had another case of an establishment about ten miles north of where he lived, and the same results were observable there. It employed 342 hands, at average wages of 9s. 6 1 ,4 d. per week ; there were 32 cottages on the place, each having six inmates, the average income of each family tieing 11. 13s. a week. None of the heads of these families had ever received any parish relief, except in the case of one widow who was injured by the burning of the mill. In the county of Dorset, the Noble Lord 111113 C know that one eighth of the whole population—not of the labouring classes only—but of the aristocracy, the clergy, the bankers, the traders—one-eighth of the whole population had beers in the receipt of parochial relief—of the labourers one-sixth bad been relieved by the parish. In the case of another establish ment. the average weekly earnings of each family were 455. a week, and the annual average income of the 154 families em ployed in it was 117/. 7s. 9d. The Hon. Member for Man chester had said that those who had migrated from the agricultural districts to the manufacturing, had had no reason to repent their change. He would state one case, and if the Members for Suffolk were present he would advise them, when they next met their constituents, to explain it to them. The man was an agricultural labourer in Suffolk, earn ing himself its. per week ; his eldest son, 2s. a week ; and the next, a boy of about twelve years of age, Is. a week ; he had ten children and a wife; they had from the parish an al lowance of a peck of flour per week, value ls. 4d., mak ing 12s. 4d. per week for the whole family. That family had increased since he went into Lancashire by one ; he had now eleven children, and was earning 555. a week, or ss. a-head for the family. There was another case of a man who came from Buckinghamshire, who afterwards went back to see his friends, but on being asked how he should like to return altogether, said the people in Buckinghamshire worked so hard, and lived so badly, he infinitely preferred remaining where he was. He thought he had said enough—(lronical cheers from the Tory benches)—apparently two much—( Renewed cheers)—for Hon. Members who were anxious to hear only one side of this important case, and many of whose had not heard even that. —( Cheers.) He admitted that, notwithstanding all this, there were great evils in these districts ; many persons were still out of employment, and the fluctuations of trade produced great calamities there. It was for the House to consider whether it was not implicated in some measures that might have produced those fluctuations. He was not about to charge the Noble Lord with anything he might wish to repel. He admitted, from his speech to-night, that he had no right to suppose but that the Noble Lord was perfectly honest in the view he took of the manufacturing districts. But he must say he thought the Noble Lord, in looking at the manufacturing districts, turned his telescope the right way, and brought all the evils near, and made them very distinct. But when he looked to the agricultural district he came from, he turned the telescope the other way—all the evils were thrown to a dis tance, and brought down to the smallest dimensions. He (Mr. Bright) believed that the amendment that had taken place in the manufacturing districts of the north of England, since the time when the respected father of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government was engaged in the manufac turing business, had not been the consequence of any legislative interference, but had been caused by the growing intelligence of the public mind. If they looked at schools, lunatic asylums, or other establishment!, they would find that the inmates were better treated now, and with more humanity, than they were in the time of their fathers. From this arose the improve ments which took place in the manufacturing districts of the north of England. He did not charge the Noble Lord with any malice towards the manufacturers. He did not conceive that the Noble Lord could have any inducement to harbour such a feeling ; but he believed the Noble Lord was as com pletely deluded by the persons he was connected with as he possibly could be. He would not obtain much credit from the manufacturers of Lancashire till he had obtained his informa tion from more respectable and trustworthy persons than those whom he had employed. He (Mr. Bright) well knew the characters from whom his information was obtained. There were two books dedicated to the Noble Lord, one was " A Description of the Experi. ences and Sufferings of William Dodd, once a Factory La bourer, and now a Poor Cripple ;" the other was called " Facts Illustrative of the Factory System," in letters to the Noble Lord by the said William Dodd. lie would not enter into his statements. It was not necessary for him to do so, for a very large proportion of his statements was utterly false, and the rest were grossly and malignantly exaggerated. He says that " at the age of 32 he was done up." That was the phrase. The fact was that he was compelled to leave the factory on account of his gross immorality. He (Mr. Bright) had in his pocket a letter from this person, in which he stated that the Noble Lord used him as long as he could get anything out of him, and then cast him off when no further use could be made of him.' He also stated that the Noble Lord gave him dinners at his own house, and showed him to his visitors as the crippled factory man ; and that, when he wrote to the Noble Lord for the balance of an account, the Noble Lord replied by reminding him of the many dinners he gave him, and of the usage he gave him as an object of charity.—(Loud cries of " Oh.") He (Mr. Bright) believed the Noble Lord was perfectly honest, but he ought to take care to obtain his in formation from a more respectable and trustworthy quarter. He would not go further into the subject.—( Cries of "Hear, hear" from the Ministerial benches.) There were 1,600,000 inhabitants in Lancashire, 900,000 of whom were employed. —( Hear, hear.) This was mere than could be said of any district of equal extent in the world.—( Hear, hear.) He admitted that the hours of working, for men, *omen, and chil. dren, were longer than was desirable. But this need not have }seen so had riot the wealth of the country been so unfairly distributed, and the people so much burdened with taxation imposed on them by the party opposite. This fell heaviest on those who were connected with trade. From 50 to 100 per.nt. of the value was imposed on the im portation of raw cotton. The firm with which he was con nected paid 75 per cent. and five-sixths of the quantity im ported was re-exported without a drawback.—(Hear, hear.) He had paid 1,0001. upon the bricks which formed his factory, while there was no duty on those used for agricultural pur poses.—( Hear, hear. )They took away a portion of the bread, and put their hand into the sugar basin, of every poor man.— (Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.") Under these circumstances, it was no wonder that there should be an ex cessive competition, when the people fought for their very existence.—( Hear, hear.) He had beard the Right Hon. Baronet, a few sessions ago, when he sat on this side of the House, and was hungering for the opposite side, deliver a peroration which was the most disgraceful he had ever heard. —( Loud cries of " Oh, oh," " Order, order," and " Chair, chair.") If the Right Hon. Baronet believed what he said he was no doubt right in speaking as he had done, but, contrasted with what he had said that night with respect to the manufacturing districts, no two things could possibly be uttered which were more opposite in their tendencies. The Government might pass or reject that clause for ten hours as they chose. He hoped they would give holi days to the operatives so as that their health might not suffer ; but now, when, the manufacturing interests were only just re covering from the effects of the distress under which they were lately labouring, if they passed that measure, they might be as sured that the next session of Parliament would not pass over without their being called upon to repeal it. He should vote for the Bill as it was originally introduced. Lord ASHLEY thought he had some right to make a few observations on the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. The charge which the Hon. Gentleman had insinuated against him called for some observation. He (Lord Ashley) threw himself upon the indulgence and protection of the House, and he requested all the gentleman he saw around him to exercise their influence in making the Hon. Member for Durham pursue his charge and state his case.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Mr. BRIGHT asked what was the charge the Noble Lord meant ?—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") He had told the Noble Lord the instruments with which he carried on his operations in Lan cashire were not worthy of his cause nor of him. He had told the Noble Lord, that he believed he had been misled by that man, and he was prepared to prove that those gentlemen were of a character whose evidence he would not take with re spect to agriculture, and the Noble Lord ought not to take it with respect to manufactures.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," mingled with cheers and expressions of disapprobation. ) Lord A SIILEY—No charge ! No charge of unpaid ba lances ! No wilfully premeditated parade of cripples ! If the Hon. Member said he had made no charge—if before the assembled Commons of England, he was prepared to assert that he made no charge, then he (Lord Ashley) could assure the Hon. Gentleman, with infinite satisfaction, that that he would let the matter rest where it was. Those who heard the Hon. Gentleman could best understand whether a charge had been made—those who heard the Hon. Gentle man could best tell whether that charge had been maintained. —(Ministerial cheers.) But now he would appeal to the House. Had he (Lord Ashley), in the course of the long speech that the House had indulged him in hearing from him—had he said any one thing cal3ulated to cause personal ill-feeling, or uttered one sentence that could exasperate a single individual, or thrown into the discussion of this great mat ter a sentiment or expres:ion .that ought not to be found in treating of to sacred a subject? If the lion. Gentleman thought that that was the way in which he could maintain his own cause, he (Lord Ashley) must say he was grieved for it, because he thought it was not suited to the dignity of the assembly in which they sat, nor suited to the dignity of the honourable Socie to which the Hon. Gen tleman belonged.—( Ironical cheers.) Mr. BRIGHT said the Noble Lord was entirely mistaken if he supposed that he (Mr. Bright) should judge of the Noble Lord's character by the man whom he told him not to trust. Now he did tell the Noble Lord plainly, that letters from that individual, stating what he (Mr. Bright) had stated, were now in his hand.—(Cries of " Read, read.") He would hand the letters with pleasure to the Noble Lord.—(Cries of " Read," and considerable confusion). And further he would tell the Noble Lord that that individual had offered for a sum of money to an intimate friend of his (Mr. Bright) a large number of other letters, which that friend of his was too fastidious to lay hold of ; arid be further told the Noble Lord not to have anything mare to do with that man. He acknowledged that the Noble Lord had honest convictions upon the question ; but he repeated, that the instrument with which he worked was not worthy of him or his real benevolence.—( Cries of " Read," " Hear, hear," and considerable confusion, during which the Honour able Gentleman in vain endeavoured to get a hearing.) The writer of the letter proceeded,to state, that having strained at a gnat he would not swallow a camel.--(Laughter.) He had never received the wages to which he was entitled. Ile had been instructed to go down to Turton, and to get what evidence he could. At his own expense he treated the people with beer, and, in his necessity, he was compelled to write to Lord Ashley to request a remittance.— (Laughter.) Mind (said Mr. Bright), Ido not believe one word of this man's statement.—(Cheers and laughter.) Dodd went on to say that he received a very angry letter from Lord Ashley. (Cheers and laughter.) He (Dodd) had been made a fool of by the tarty, but, if he were at liberty, " he could a tale unfold."—(Great laughter.) He (Mr. Bright) never spoke of the Noble Lord but in terms of respect, and with a full acknowledgment of the benevolence of his motives.—( Oh, oh, and cheers.) He believed that the Noble Lord wished as he wished, that all information upon this subject should be derived from persons who could be relied on. —( Hear, hear. ) He stated the,,e facts for the purpose of giving the Noble Lord an opportunity of rebutting the statements. Lord ASHLEY said it was perfectly true that he had re ceived letters from the person referred to. But that person had never dined at his table.—(Laughter.) He had come to his house, and was perkaps received with hospitality—but it was by the servants.—( Hear, and laughter.) He agreed, however, with the Hon. Member that Dodd was a person upon whom no reliance could he placed.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. WARBURTON (who rose amidst loud cries of " Ad journ") said that he thought the matter was too important to be disposed of at that hour, and he should, therefore, move that the Chairman should report progress and ask leave to sit again. The motion was carried without opposition, and the House resumed. In reply to a quostion from Captain PECHELL, Sir J. GRAHAM said that he would bring on the New Poor-law on Friday next. The House then adjourned at One o'Clock.