The Sun. — London, England, 1844-07-20 00:00:00

wou ld e 5 her. The tated that sed in :‘ll.. red to the as old uP was ats dei tof f ' „ly , di rictly eeai verdict e could t° th res Pe el d dew. 14 ' u Frie l f istraeter e a cted i ll 4ete the pub ° been d °Tle lor of th e t with "s • c ateu 331 1111 I „Gene' c°Eli : were c 11 :1 i n form ace f u l ere cers .ient roe% si -'ce• e out! . de u ld dor' i n 0 1 OPP°iIIS' of 111f ' issiottev Ise- • 11 15 Frolrl. t iufficlen be en Ire iset• tbo r y s er: tile •. DO' his the s6 [I . t n • _ .0 9 is. s'l' pot rg° to i o n of Ol t lett commending mercy in the case of the two persons to whom he had alluded. He (Mr. M. Gibson) was glad that the Right Hon. Baronet had adopted such a course, because he was convinced the crime was increased by severe penalties. He thOught the Hon. Gentleman, !Wore he questioned the prerogative of mercy, ought to have inquired within himself how many of the crimes r which m en were conv i c t e d th e State was responsible for, i n consequence of b ad leg i s l at i on. N o step was t a k en , t o remove s qua lid wan t an d di s tress, and the result was, Tat a strong feeling existed among the labouring classes Vjlatthey were neglected, and that ail the legislation of that louse was for the bejiefit of the higher and of the middle classes. There was a feeling among the lower classes that the Legislature did not care for them, and the clergy of the Church had contributed to spread that feeling. What had the Rev. Godolphin Osborne told thetile Duke of Richmond ? Why, he stated this to him, t if the Legislature would only give the labourers' half the attention that was given to the landlords condition, they !ould arrive at the conclusion which he had' arrived at, that there was not a single animal used on their 'farms th at suffered so much neglect as the labourer. Was it, therefore, to be wondered at, tßat a feeling of discontent had greatly increased? It had been said that clime arose in the manufacturing districts from want of P as toral care. Why, these counties to which he had al tided were counties of churches and clergymen.— (Rear, hear.) There was plenty of pastoral care there. ut more was wanted than that. Mr. Osborne stated further, that neither the law nor the Gospel could pre vail when men were deprived of the bread which they rlll fr.olt to have, and were treated worse than brutes. He M. Gibson) did not think any increase of the churches or of clergymen, or the keeping up the price ° I Corn, would conciliate the labouring classes with the oWners of the land, or would ward off those evils which would assuredly come some day. When the limited'sur fce of this island, and its increased population, was i nsidered, he had to charge gentlemen opposite with being themselves the means of strengthening the preju dices against them among the labouring classes. One leason given mach incendiarism was the dislike the la ourer had to inery. He saw that machinery was taking his labour out of his hands; and what had been t he course adopted by the landlords on that subject? t hy, even at public meetings on the corn-law question, ieu they chose to revile the manufacturer, they en ered into tirades against the use of machinery in menu tsetories. The labourers, hearing them using these armaments, and finding that machinery was used by the te nants of the landlords greatly to- their detriment, t hey were led to the conclusion that machinery was i l l: Platy bad to them as it was for the la; t hese in manufactories. The landlords had fomented feelings for party purposes, to raise a prejudice a gainst the manufacturers, and now it. had. recoiled a gainst th emse l v es they would come forward to advocate the use of it. With respect to wages, the same attempt I' l _ l 4 been m a de to delude the poor labourers. They had b een told that the farmers could afford to give them better wages if they chose, Now that he (Mr. M. Gibson) • • d enied to be the case. Farmers, generally speaking, co uld hardly afford to give the wages they did. The la ndowners stated that the farmers were screwing the fires down, and that was the cause of the incendiary les that had taken place. He believed that the control • ° , l ,` wages was entirely out of the farmers' power; — whilst ue rent of the landlord increased the money would Into landlords' pockets, derived, as it was, from the sweat 2f th e brow of the labourer. The expectations that had b een held out by the promise of protection had induced haveZFie farmers to g v ie hi . gher rent than the otherwise would done, and to join in so us an enterprise. be ginning was happy, however, to see that the farmers were' t he to open their eyes. He had been lately into •,. country, where he had no doubt the Right Hon. B aronet would be glad to be at the present moment, a nd it was his opinion that the farmers began to think t hat the Right Honourable Baronet's protection was :_quivocal, and he (M. M. Gibson) wished to en uraec such a feeling. Such he believed to be the`" feelings of the present time, and he had no doubt e t hat these feelings would tend to good. The less con fidence the farmers had in protection, the more likely „ Iv ere they to conduct their business in a profitable man rr• The agricultural labourers were deeply interested' $ l , l , the prosperity of the farmers, and the prosperity of the farmers would be, best consulted by not depending ert that House, but on their own exertions. He.trusted t hat l he s hould be met fairly on this subject by the Right ( ,°P. Baronet opposite. Inquiries had been made by utrimittees into the state of the Aborigines, the 4 ‘.frica l s, and even the Esquimaux, but no inquiries had be en made into the condition of the agricultural la bourer. Some gentlemen got up in that House and Stated that there was no distress, while others of high j i athority had stated that there was deep distres s . ' The y h ad magistrates stating that the working classes lOoked on with a sort of satisfaction at the terrible destruction or their neighbours' stacks and farms. Mr. Bevan, the chairman of the quarter-sessions, stated that the People at Middleharn Hall did all they could h?remote the fire, and another person at Hitcham With made a similar statement. The motion wit,;h which he intended to conclude he had pet into 11 1. : ti ng, but he did not wish to confine the Right Hon. et talet to the words he had there used. If he would sub? send down some gentlemen to inquire into the ki, Je ct, who were unconnected with the Poor-law Com „,--s,eners, or who did not hold any situation that would 7,4 1 ' 0 th em a biased character—if he would do that, he ha ve M. Gibson) would agree to any proposition that would I , a ve th e effect of carrying out the object he had in view. re would conclude by moving that a humble address to reason Majesty, representing to her Majeity that there was Jason to believe that the incendiarism now prevalent in t he counties of Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, and Cambridge, arose from distress, and praying her Majesty to issue a Commission to ascertain what was the cause of that distress. It might be said that this was a partial motion, because it was confined to certain counties. With respect to that, he would only say that, if,'after this inquiry was t erminated, it was thought _desirable to extend it to all t he rural districts of the country, he could have 'no tc, "l ci e tion to 'it ; indeed, he thought it would be most wise r e s,„ ° 80 . • He thought there had been greatneglect with ha:t v to the condition of the working classes, and he Would i d ,' if they put' off this inquiry much longer, they Sir : T oe the delay. just • GRAHAM said, after the speech that had w ou i d e ea delivered by the Hon. Gentleman, the House te i „ see that it was his duty to offer some observitions. -ug the time of the delivery of that speech it oc-. Curved to his mind , to ask himself what the object of the Pourable Gentleman could be in delivering thelsenti trts he had done, and he had come to the conGlusion h i at only a deep sense of duty to the public had ilduced PI to make the speech he had done. He had, heard _ith if great satisfaction what,the Hon. Member had tot stated, he should have felt it his duty to have com municated to the House, that this crime, though so :graceful, an d having such a tendency to spread, being a contagious nature:, was diminishing. Cer tn;al7 it was an extraordinary period to make tbat ads e; s8101 1, and, knowing that fact, that he should have it his duty to have addressed to the House speechhe had just made. The Hon. Member had told d i m not t o t a k e a c hief constable's view of this matter ; was bound to say, whether the Hon. Member con sidered it a chief constable's duty or not, he thought a di scussion o f this kind forced upon the attention of Par 1 - Lament, had a direct tendency to increase' the crime.— ;'car, hear.) There was such a thing as fannteg the Moulderin g flame, and it was quite possible that a dis eassion such as the Hon. Member had introduced that ext inguished.-(Hear, would cast fuel upon the flames which were:almost - "t , ulguished.—(Hear, hear.) What good, let him ask, co uld arise from the various topics the Hon. Member : d introd uce d ? Why, what had been the occupation 0 that House for the last four or five weeks ? Late and erq, g, morning and evening, they had been :cussin with the most intense desire to promote 'l i e inte res t s and add to the comforts ?f the la bouring classes, the amendment of that law; which Provided f or t h e i r r elief; and the Hon. Gentle Man ad rted himself that while they were so employed, he thought that great advocate of the rights and comforts of poor—(Lond cheers from the Ministerial bendhes) — th e)* been seeking elsewhere that gratification which, if -e )* had consulted merely their own pleasure, th ey should have sought' with. him.—(Hear,' hear.) 4 had been absent consulting that enjoyment, at 'ne they had been devoting much pains and earnest t the to devising some means by which the misfor tunes of their poorer fellow-subjects might be alleviated. ti Pat was the meaning of the comparison the Hon. Member which between the poor of this country and the inquiries i , ; - "ieb had been instituted into the state of the Abori- V i es of various parts of the world—the Hottentots and „,:cluitnaux on which he founded an analogy for the pre 'tent inquiry ? What wan the meaning of the allusion l e Made to the coldheartedness and selfishness of the ana Gird proprietors? GIBSON—I quoted the words of a clergyman. -1 r JAMES GRAHAM had a great respect for the tie r gYmen of this country, but among that :dY there might be indiscreet • individuals ; there the uich a thing—he did net say he admired character—as a popularity-hunting parson as well as a' agitati n g Member of Parliament.—(Cheers:) ,The 11 , °a • Member had quoted from the letter of a clergy :l ; but, at a time when anything like excitement. re eZied, was it likely to add to the peace or order o f the e ntry, which it was the doctrine of the religion of .I . lv , ie u that gentleman was the minister to diffuse '"ung all , classes? But the Hon. Gentleman would o e rleit him to tell him, that there was no need for a, ,Ttainittee of Inquiry into the condition of the labouring -a sses of that district. He (Sir J. Graham) had stated 0 a former occasion that the assizes now in progress wt ettlr'ls not fail to throw a distinct light on the crime to Cations, lie had adverted. He had had communi ee,"' ei•om the Judges who ' were now em 'led 'in truing the criminals in that district. He had 1 4 '''''at • s s • satis,actison in stating that there was no difficulty I , ad ministering the law throughout that district. There Rr a ' great willingness to disclose the truth ; there_ was ei . l at impartiality on the part of juries, and great 'dis atidraivtn.ation in their verdicts. The guilty were convicted, here there was fair cause to doubt the proofs ad "(I, the innocent had had the benefit of that doubt ; and Nsa, he was told, upini the highest authority, that there th ro "° symptom whatever of a diseased state of society lighout that county, and, generally speaking, the eri m _ t es that had been committed there had been traced o Person a l enm i ty, or h a d b een comm itted by very e„ n goffenders. He believed lie stated the fact—and -ere w , ere gentlemenpresent who were better acquainted ae'vteriat,i than himself-"-- when he said that, at C,helmsferd, of I ._ children had ,been committed for trial on charges t 1 .endiarism, o f th e ages of 8,9, and 12 years. He , also he ar d from Huntingdon, that two children, one 4 ° 2 9 , and th e ot h er 11 , h a d b een conv i c t e d of this di e • He h a d rece i ve d a suggest i on . t o w hi c h he was ..a,posed to pay attention, that he should insert` in the the _w r hich had gone up from this House, in reference to bring which the Hon. Gentleman had felt it his duty 1 , 11 ,7 1 , g under their consideration, a clause inflicting the eoto u' ln B r . ent of whipping in reference tothis offence, when fere nc _ " ! 4 by juvenile offenders. The House, in re e to another offence, to which he would not more particularly refer where notoriety was sought by juve nile offenders, did add that penalty to the.F:other infiidL by the law. It bad been suggested to him that they should_follovi this example. He was bound to state that, with regard to these juvenile offenders, as far as thei could discover, it was bad example that had produced that effect but he would repeat that there was no proof whatever ofa generally. .diseased state of societyamong the labouring classes in the district the Hon. Gentle man hiul alluded to. If he could believe that a Commit tee of Inquiry was necessary, he would not hesitate to appoint one, but at the present moment, with the crime decreasincs, the law being carried into execution without tlifficulty i 7those . who perpetrated the crime being com mitted. for. trial, and being about to be tried, it was not under such circumstances that he thought it expedient to advise the Crown to depart from the usual course of administering the law, or to appoint a Committee for investigating the circumstanees. With respect to the other topics the Hon. Gentleman had thought fit to in troduce, it would be enough for him to say that he did not think 61E61 the language the Hon. Gentleman had ad dreSied to . the House, or the train of argument, if argu ment it could be called, which was rather a course of invective, was likely, on the present occasion, to induce any large portion of the House to concur with him in the motion he had made. He was quite satisfied that neither the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, nor his mo tion, if it could be carried, would have the effect of diminishing the evils which he declared he was desirous of alleviating, 'On the contrary, he was quite satisfied, though it did not become him to impute motives to the Hon: Gentleman that he had acted with indiscretion in the course he hadi taken—one which was more likely to produce than to prevent the evils of which he complained. On these grounds he should offer his most decided op position to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. WODEHOUSE said there would be other op portunities of replying to the speech of the Honourable Gentleman, of which he should not fail to avail himself. He should only address himself, at present, to the ob servations the Hon. Gentleman made with respect to him 'self. The Hon. Member had stated that he (Mr. Wode house) had arraigned the exercise of the royal preroga tive of mercy. He was standing in the presence of that 'House, and he distinctly denied any such intention. The case alluded to was of a peculiar nature. Two per sons were tried for incendiarism, found guilty, and sen tenced to fifteen years' transportation. A few weeks •afterwards 'they received a free pardon. It was utterly imposiible to deny that that was a circumstance calcu lated to create surprise. But when the Hon. Gentleman said that he was an advocate for the dungeon, he begged leave to tell him that the more he inquired into this sub ject the more he would find that these fires were not the effect of the ill-usage—the impression which the Hon. Member intended to convey. As far as his own County was concerned, ihere was an instance of three fires being caused by a child between 11 and 12 years old. There was no doubt of his guilt, but somehow he was such a favourite with his master and mistress that they could get no conviction against him. There was another ease. in. Leicestershire of a fire caused by a deaf and dumb..man, who had previously been convicted of the crime .of.cutting the throat of a donkey 'belonging to a neighbour. Of his guilt there was no doubt ; but a me morial -was presented to the 'Secretary of State in his favour, and a poor woman who had given evidence against - him - was burned in effigy. It had been proved that eight fires bad been caused in the county 'of Sussex by one man who was not at all connected with the agriculture ofthat county, being a cooper. He believed that the discontent that prevailed among the working classes might be materially attributed to the nonsense which -the... Hon. Gentleman and others bad industriously circulated among them with respect to wages. With re gard to the assertion the Hon. Member had made of his having arraigned the prerogative of mercy; there was no foundation for the assertion, and he gave it his most un qualified contradiction. Mr. DARBY alluded to the quotation that had been made-from the letter of the Rev. Mr. Osborne, and de fended the Duke of Richmond from the charge that that letter made upon him, of being careless of the interests* .of the poor labourers. He could speak from his own knowledge that no man was more studious of their in- terests than the Noble Duke. He strongly condemned the-course the Hon. Member had taken of originating. , such a - discussion, as it might tend to increase the com mission of the crime. Mr. BRIGHT said he had noticed ever since he had had the honour of holding a seat in that House, and ever since he had been in the habit of reading the accounts of its proceedings in the public journals, that there was a great disinclination to inquire into anything connected with. the agricultural districts. If such an inquiry was proposed,-it was sure to be discovered that the time was most inconvenient for it. Why all this sensibility should exist - was more than he could understand, except by re ferring it to some questions with which many Hon. Geetlemen opposite did not think it advisable to trouble the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the absence of the Hon. Member for Manchester, who, he said, had been enjoying himself in the country, while he and his colleagues bad been employed in looking after the interest of the poor, in arranging the clauses of the Poor-law Amendment Act. It was an excellent occupation, and one there was much occasion for ; but it was just as useful to the country for some Members of that House to apply their minds to disco vering What were the true causes of pauperism, as in treating pauperism as it existed, and devising schemes for relieving it. The Right Hon. Baronet had spoken of a certain clergyman as a " popularity-hunting parson." Nothing was more easy than to use phrases for the purpose of getting rid of, a fact which any, individual might state. But this popularity-hunting parson happened to be connected with the aristocracy of the country. He wrote-or somebody else wrote for him—Honourable before his name; and connected with the aristocracy and the Church, it was not likely that he would- run away with by a n absurd or vulgar sympathies' with the popu lation among whom he lived. Any Hon. Gentleman ac quainted with. the county of Dorsetshire must know that that gentleman was most active and zealous in discharg ing the .duties of his office, and was most anxious in his desire to promote the well-being of those among whom he resided.- The Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the favourable account he had received from the Judges he had sent' into the counties' where these crimes had taken place;—why no one supposed that witnesses could not be had • no one supposed that convictions could not be obtaieed; they knew perfectly well that during the last few weeks there had not' been so many of these outrages committed, as during some previous weeks. But was it to be premised from that, that the causes of incendia rism had been removed ? Why, he knew, if the Right Hon, Baronet or Hon. Gentlemen connected with those , counties did not, that there had been many threatening ' letters sent in various parts of these districts within a very recent period. It was because his Hoz. Friend did not wish to add to all the alarm that prevailed, by stating the circumstances that had come to his know ledge during his visit to Suffolk, that he had not men tioned them particularly. He believed that the causes of these outrages had not been by any means removed, and that they might increase rather than diminish. With respect to the question of wages which had been alluded to • by the Hon. Member for South Norfolk, he could assure' him that - there had never been a single meeting' in an agricultural county at which his Hon. Friend the Member for Stockport and himself had. at tended Airing the , last year, at which they had not endeavoured to elucidate the subject of .wages to the meeting, so as to show that the rate of wages was not at the disposal of the farmers, but depended mainly on the number of the labourers as compared with the amount of work to be done.- If the Hon. Gentleman opposite had, in discussions in that House, taken an equally wise course, there would have been much less ill-feeling between the employers and the employed than there was at present. But, for him self, he could say that there was no man living whose conscience' was clearer of any imputation of having endeavoured to stir up the labouring population against those by whom they were employed, and on whose lands they lived. He had spoken of the sensibility which Hon. Members opposite displayed upon agricultural questions. Now, at an early period of the present session, a motion had been made for a Committee of Inquiry into the effect of the protection duty on farmers and farm-labourers. How was that motion met ? The Right Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, argued that there were persons on whom the appointment of the Committee would have an unfavour able effect, particularly considering the quarter from whence the proposition came. The sensibilities of Hon. Gentlemen prevented him from granting that Committee, though it would have been granted to any other interest. The Right Hon. Baronet stated that this crime had uot been so frequent during the last week as it had been before, and that there was no disposition in the district itself that these things should be inquired into. Now, there was a meeting of the inhabitants of Rattlesden to take into consideration the statement which appeared in the Times, and they wished that a Commission should be appointed to inquire into the causes of incendiarism. That fact was not only a justification of his Hon. Friend, but a condemnation of the Member for Essex, who had never sought for an inquiry into their cause. Why, if only one fire every month had occurred in the manufactur ing districts, nothingshould have been left undone to in vestigate a state of things so alarming. And was it not alarming that so many fires were taking place in those counties ? Was it nothing :that the insurance-offices were suffering ?—that the tenant-farmers were suffer ing?—and that there was such an increase of one of the worst of crimes? And yet they were taunted with inter fering with what was not their concern. Butif the Govern ment hadinstituted noinquiry, the Times and Chronick had, and they , differed as to the cause of these fires.. The Times stated that the new poor-law was the cause of them. The Chronicle said "No ; for the crime existed under the old law, but the no longer bearable distress of the labourer was,the cause of it." He was yesterday in Kent, and he stopped at an inn, kept by a respectable person -who was a Tory, and.always supported the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Paymaster of the Forces. He (Mr. Bright) had asked him if there was any truth in the statement, that the new poor-law was harsh upon the lab aurer 2 He replied that no person who was rated at less than 25 per cent. could be a guardian, and there fore'no person but the farmers could be elected guardians, and 'that the labourer had no chance under Such a system, for he had . a great difficulty to make both ends meet. But there was a grievance before the poor-law which pressed upon the labourer, for there were more persons in those counties than there was employment for, and he believed that on the landlords rested the responsibility of such a state of things. The Mem ber for Northamptonshire had, on a former occasion, accused him of saying that that House was a club of landowners, and legislated for the benefit of landowners ; but the public must -have come to that conclitsion, though he had' not said so. Rents in Suffolk were - as high,. or higher, than they were fifty years agog but the return of capital employed by tenants was net much higher now, than it was then, and the condition of the labourers was becoming worse and worse. There was the keenest competition amongst all the classes-of the community, except amongst the landowners, who `' „:1J had sheltered themselves from that competition, which wailltug l iaefad k in consequence of the laivs which4ey had passed to - priitect themselves from it. With regard to the number of labourers in Suffolk, he would ask Hon. Gentlemen connected with that county to look at, the returns which had lately been laid on the table of that House. It appeared from those returns that in that county alone 39,489 persons were relieved during the quarter ending 1843, from the poor-rates. It ap peared that the number of paupers was 13 per cent. of the whole population of the county, that in Sussex the number of paupers was fourteen per cent. of the whole population. Here was another proof that the popula tion was • greater than the employment that could be afforded. It appeared from the late census, which was made up to 1841, that the increase in the population, during the last ten years, had been something more than fourteen per cent., and there was reason to believe that the increase of births over deaths was as great in Suffolk as in any other county. Now, how great a portion of fourteen per cent. had Suffolk maintained on its own soil? Not more than six per cent. Only six per cent. had remained to increase the population of the county,' and the rest were, by the necessity of the case, driven to seek employment elsewhere. In the purely agri cultural counties they had retained on their own soil a quarter of the per tentage of births over deaths as the population of those counties for the last ten years. But where had the surplus found an asylum ? The returns would show ; for in Mon mouthshire the population had increased 36 per cent., though the number of births over deaths was 14 per cent., or the same as that of the agricultural counties. In Lancashire the increase was 24 per cent. In Durham, where the mines were numerous, the increase was 27 per oent. In Staffordshire, 24 per cent. In Warwickshire, where the great manufacturing town of Birmingham was, 19 per cent. ; and in the West Riding of Yorkshire, where the linen and worsted trades were carried on, 18 per cent. Thus it would be seen that the manufac turing districts had absorbed the surplus of the population which the agricultural counties were unable to employ. The effect of restrictions on trade was such as to make the natural source of employment less than it would otherwise be, and even to make the culti vation of the soil less efficient than it would be if trade were unrestricted. They might fail in their attempts to frie the industry of the labourers, but the increase of the population would at length force them to do that which they might have it in their power to yield to the wishes of a large portion of their countrymen. He believed that that House was accountable for the crimes that were taking place in Suffolk, Sussex, Norfolk, and Cam bridgeshire, and that this state of things arose from their own vicious legislation, and would continue till their return to sound principles. They forgot that property had any duties.—(Hear.) They considered that they had nothing to do but to put their rents in their pockets. Quod tuurn tene seemed to be their motto, and those who were under them were helpless because they were poor, and they had no political power, beceause the landlords usurped it themselves. He had seen, in one newspaper, ninety-eight advertisements for the sale of farming stock at one time. One would say that the landowners suffered by this, but in consequence of another law, that was just less bad . than the one which he was condemning, the landlord seized upon everything when one of his tenants failed, and left nothing for the wheelwright and grocer, to whom he might be indebted.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Then, had they nothing to answer for the mode in which they kept game? A Noble Lord, a relation of the Hon. Member for Suffolk, quoted the opinion of Mr. Neave, who said that the farmers justly complained of the enormous quantity of game, by which their crops were quite eaten up. That these deprived them of more food than would keep the Poor of the parish; and he instanced one farm of 200 acres, on which 2,000 rabbits had been killed, and he calculated that these destroyed more than'3oo sheep would in the same time. It was necessary that those things should be • stated. If they were • true, it was a dis graoe to the landowners. If it were untrue he should.be glad of it, and he would not state 'it again, either there or elsewhere. A rural poliee was kept up by the gentry to watch - game, and to prevent poaching. Look to what had taken place on the estate of the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire. A gamekeeper had been killed, for which one person was hanged, and four others were in the Penitentiary, or on their way to the penal 'settlements: Thus six . families were deprived of their husbands and fathers PA. the purpose of main taining those puerile and childish sports .which should be coridemned,in a country so densely populated as this. A circumstance of a similar nature occurred on the estate of the Marquis of Normanby, and also in the county of Surrey and in Coventry. In,Scotland, the ' farmers complained of this system as destructive of their farms, and demoralising to the minds of themselves and their labourers. Misery, from suffering, was at the bot tom of th.e outrages which had taken place, and though the Hon. Gentlemen opposite might seem to deny it, he believed in his conscience that they knew it to be case. He had yesterday travelled from Gravesend to Canter bury, and from thence to town, and no person could see the country through which he travelled without coming to the conclusion that the labouring population of the country was grossly ignorant, and upon them rested the responsibility. The consequence was, that their toil was reqnited by a gaol,' as poachers, or by the work house, as paupers. They said that this law was passed Ito protect native industry. He asserted it was passed to protect native idleness, and to impoverish native industry. The Hon. Member for West Suffolk made a speech, in which he beheved he said that severer punishments ought to be established in order to repress the crime of burning. A return lately presented to the House of the number of persons convicted and punished for the crime of arson for some years past, showed that from 1831 to 1836 the committals were 493, the convic tions 119, and the executions 58. Was it not a horrible state of things which produced the destruction of so much property, and then ended it—but it did not, end it—by the execution of fifty-eight of their fellow-men ? He thought it was one of the proudest boasts of the late Government, that they had mitigated the terms of the criminal code, and he trusted the present Government would follow their example. From 1838 to 1843, during which time there was no hanging for burnings, the, number of committals was 344, and the number of convictions 117, thus showing that the number of convictions was greater in proportion to the number of committals; than when the , punishment was capital, because the juries were not desirous to convict when they knew that death was the penalty. Whoever might be anxious to return , to the system of hanging, in order to put down this system, the feeling must beengendered by apprehension. The landlords lived in a state of great diffiulty; they kept watchers, upon nearly every farm ; being apprehensive of these dis asterS, they became timid, and there was nothing. so near timidity as cowardice. Hanging would have no: effect in suppressing incendiarism. To suppose that such a state of things was to be, put down only by the halterwas absurd in the extreme. They knew that the population was in a hopeless, miserable, and despairing condition, and yet they had allowed the session to pass by, and , not one of them - had proclaimed the calamities which had afflicted their own districts ; but' they now taunted them, which was inimical to the interests of those districts. Not one of their greatest flatterers in their own counties would refuse to acknowledge that they had on all occasions told the labourers that they were not to blame the farmers, for their low wages, but the system which unhappily •prevails in this country.— (Hear, hear.)—They need not tell the farmers to rely upon the assurance of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), made in a tone of triumph which he did not as sume when he expected to be in a minority, that the, corn-law was to be continued for ever • but they should teach them to rely upon that which all men had relied upon, who had succeeded best in every decription of la bour—whether agricultural or manufacturing. There were Gentlemen on the other side of the House, who as much disapproved of such conduct as he (Mr. Bright) did. They had protected the labourers into miserable hovels, gaols, and workhouses. The population was con stantly increasing, and they had no work for them ; the manufacturing districts were continually drawing off a portion of the population, which would otherwise in crease the existing calamity. He asked them now to do a very small thing, in order to see whether farming could not be carried on prosperously as well as other trades. He had only yesterday read the life of William Caxton, the first English printer. It ap? peared from that that an ordinance was passed in 1441, in which the landlords of that time stated that the. people engaged in husbandry in this coun try were greatly damaged by the reason of the bring ing of corn beyond the seas to keep down the price in this country. Here were their ancestors, of four hundred years ago—men who had no Adam Smith to go to—men who received no such lessons as had been given to Honourable Gen tleman epposite, session after session, by those whom they had placed in power, using precisely the language common in the present day. They had denied, because they had not the power to give, protection to labourers and manufacturers; and then, with a vast deal of paint on the panels of their coaches, they came down to the House to legislate for themselves. The worst thing he wished them was, that when that retribution came upon the landlords of this country, which must come on such legislation, it might please Heaven to bless them with greater mercy than they had shown to' the labourers of this country. RUSHBROOKE said the Hon. Gentleman had accused hiin of advocating the infliction of the punish ment of death for this crime. He certainly understood the language of the petition which he had presented on that subject held it best that in a crime of this na ture capital punishment should be inflicted in extreme cases. The Hon. Gentleman had charged him with stating that there was no destitution whatever in the county with which he was connected. He had spoken' only of his own neighbourhood ; what might be the case in other districts he.would' not pretend to say. ' Mr. BRAMSTONE said, the Hon. 'Gentleman, had said that there would be no difficulty in obtaining con victioes in these cases. If a Commission were issued in the tone and temper of the speeches of Hon. Gentlemen opposite, they would have a general conflagration, instead of a decrease in the number of fires. It was stated by Mr. Baron Parke, in his charge to the grand jury, that the great majority of the fires were not committed by agricultural labourers in distress, but by' girls and boys under ten years of age. Three children were to be tried, whose respective ages •were 8,9, and 10 ; and it appeared that, instead of being in a distressed condition, they were living comfortably with their masters and mistresses. He, for one, begged to 'thank the Right Hon. Gentleman for refusing to grant this Commission. Lord HENNIKER said it had been his duty to apply to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) on more than one occasion on this subject, and he begged to bear his testimony to his, earnest endeavours to ascertain the causes of this incendiarism.—(Hear, hear.) The' Hon. Member for Manchester formerly joined in the teed of Traise paid to the landlordi and irmers of Suffolk, for their conduct to the working- classes.— (Hear, hear.) That they were no less anxious now to promote the in terests of the working classes than in former times, was THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 20, 1844. shown by the number of charitable institutions which existed in that '6oinklY. Irthe Hon. Member for Durham should ever visit the - eastern district of Suffolk, he believed his opinion on this subject would undergo an entire change.--(Hear, hear.) Although the Hon. Member for Manchester had fairly stated the number of fires, he had not fairly stated the causes to which they were attributable.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT said he had not intended to bring any special charge against the landlords of Suffolk espe _ cially. He believed his charge applied to those of the whole country.=(Hear, hear.) Mr. VILLIERS said, he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman ought to regret the tone in , whieh he 'had; refused to accede' to the motion, seeing that the Noble Lord (Henniker) had admitted that he went to him for the purpose of urging upon him the necessity of adopting some steps for the suppression of the fires.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The High Hon. Gentleman had commenced by saying that it would not become him to impute motives ; he wished he had not insinuated one. Why the Right Hon. Baronet had introduced his measure for the alteration of the poor-law solely in consequence of the agitation on the subject. If he mistook not, the Right Hon. Baronet said that he had done it unwillingly. Why did he not address the same sort of speech as he had addressed to the Hon. Member for Manchester, to those Hon. Gentlemen who sat behind him, when they urged on the question of the repeal of the poor-law ?—(Cheers.) There was not a sentence of his Honourable Friend's speech that was half so inflammatory, or half so violent as the speeches which he had heard made in that House on the subject of the poor-law.—(Hear, hear.) Why did the Right Hon. Baronet reserve his attack for the Hon. Member for Manchester? Why, it was because, as had been just observed by his Hon. Friend the Member for Durham, there was a peculiar sensitiveness on the subject, because the majority of that House were interested in keeping up an artificial price for the fruits of the soil.—(Cheers.) It was not the free-traders who were to .blame, because the question of the corn-laws was introduced whenever any question was raised as to the condition of the poor. It was the landowners themselves who always made the condition of the poor the excuse for maintaining the corn-laws, they said the laws were to be maintained be- cause they were for the benefit of the agricultural labourer. The condition of the poor was always pleaded as the excuse for maintaining these laws, and now that the whole 'country was alarmed in consequence of the incendiarism prevalent in these districts, where the condition of the agricultural poor was known to be so miserable, surely a motion for inquiring into their condition was not ill-placed. The Hon.*Gentle man who represented the county of Suffolk stated that they had not brought the condition of the poor of that county before the House, because they had .asked the Right Hon. Baronet on the subject, and had - confidence in him. But if the House and the country wanted' to know the cause of the distress—the distress was not caused by the new Poor-law—it had been going on for the last twenty years. As far back as 1824, thQy had had evidence of the deteriorated condition of the people. He had found letters in the Times, describing the mise . rable condition of the agricultural population in the counties of Suffolk, Norfolk, and Essex , written before the new. Poor-law was enacted. He would read tq the House a letter which appeared in the Times in the year 1830, signed " A Labourer."—(The Hon. Gentlemen here read extracts from the letter referred to, in which the writer represented the condition of the labouring population as being miserable in the extreme. Their wages were low, and he attributed that circumstance to the operation of the old law, under Which the farmers paid their labourers half wages, and, sent them to the parish to make! up the difference. The writer then went on to state, that he heard that a law had been passed to keep up the price of corn, for the goOd of the proprietors of land ; and he suggested the propriety of passing a law compelling the farmer to pay his labourer the value of three pecks of flour a week as wages.) That letter had been made the subject of a leading article in the Times in 1830. It was quite evi- dent that the new poor-law was not an adequate cause to account for the distress. The Times was quite right in describing the people as in great distress ; and the had been as much distressed under the old law as they ,were under the new one. There had been something for the last twenty years continually deteriorating the condition . of the people of this country and that was, that during the whole of that period the population had been in creasing, the demand for employment had been dimi nishing, and the price of food had been rising. In 0.824, a clergyman, who had given evidence before a Commit tee of that House, stated that the condition of the People was deteriorating, that their wages were low, and that they were becoming pauperised. If ever there was an occasion when inquiry into the condition of the poor was called for, it was at the present moment. The. Hon. Members for Suffolk said the people were well off ; at . the same time it could not be denied that these incen diary fires had occurred. The irisairance-offices, it was stated, had paid four times as much as they had received in those counties ; and an idea was prevalent among the proprietors of those offices, that the parties themselves had in many instances destroyed the property. Seeing these various Contradictory statements, the Government ought to make inquiry. It was most desirable to ascer tain the cause of the distress, and his Hon. Friend the Member for Manchester had done his duty in bringing it before the nouse. A more proper or a more discreet motion could not be made, and he should certainly ;vote in favour of it. Sir J. TYRRELL thought the speeches of the Hon. Members for Manchester and Durham were calciflated to excite the lower orders, and possessed all the charac-, teristics of incendiary speeches. Mr. VILLIERS rose to order. He wished to l i knOw what the„Right Hon. Baronet meant by " incendiary speeches?" • - Sir J. TYRRELL had' said - that, to his humb'e ap- ' prehension, the character of the speeches of the Hon. MeMber foiD - urham and the Hon. Member for 'Man chester possessed ail • thu characteristics of incendiary speeches..--(Hear; - hetir.) If their object had been to discourage incendiary fires, he must say that speeches less calculated' to attain such an object he had never heard. It mttst-be that he was a person of weak com prehension, 'for they had heard - from high authority that persons representing the agricultural districts were not persons of very acute perception, and that must be some apology for him.-.-(Ckeers and laughter.) The fact was, thiS debate' was •an - adjourned corn-law debate, and whenever - he had entered the House of late he had heard' little else. These unfortunate fires had now ceased; and if the speeches were incendiary speeches, and the fires should break out again, they would see to whose ability they might attri bute laugh.). Much had been said of the want of employment in the manufacturing districts. lie attributed much of that to the character of the opposi tion to the corn-laws which had been' put forward by the late Government, and the low farmers and unin formed people had not hitherto had such confidence in her Majesty's present- Ministers on the subject of the corn-laws—(Opposition cheers)—as to induce thein to give increased employment. (Renewed Opposition cheers.) He always read the Money and City article, and sometimes not without disgust, for whenever any proposition was brought forward for a railroad, however miserable the prospect of traffic might be, there was plenty of capital to support it. But those capitalists would not invest one farthing in the cultivation of the soil. The Hon. Member for Durham had accused him of a cruel disposition, because he had presented a peti tion for a more severe punishment for the crime of incen diarisin. In the only case inwhich a person advanced in years had confessed to the crime of incendiarism, he had stated that he had been induced to set the property on fire in order to be transported. Now, the Hon. Member for Durham could not produce an instance in which a person had committed incendiarism for the purpose of being hung.—(Load laughter.) It had been kis misfor tune to present a petition praying for increased punish ment for the crime of incendiarism, but he did not say that he wished to have that crime punished capitally. Now, the farmers would, he thought, have greater con fidence in the Government since their recent declaration, and increased employment of labour would be the conse quence, more particularly after they had witnessed the . expiring effort of the Anti-Corn-law League a few nights since. The House then divided, when there appeared --For going into 'a Committee of Supply 130 For Mr. Gibson's amendment , • • Majority Upon entering the gallery we found the House in Committee, and Mr. IVYSE moving on the grant.of Education (Ire land), "That a dutiful address , be presented to her Ma jesty, humbly representing to her Majesty the import ance of due.provision being made for the University edu cation of her Roman Catholic subjects of Ireland, espe cially of such as are intended for the priesthood, and the inadequacy - of the means and system now existing for the attainment of such object ; and further praying her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to give directions, by an enlargement and improvement of exist ing arrangements, either by opening the emoluments and honours as well as studies of the University of Dnblin to Roman Catholics as well as Protestants, and raising the College of Maynooth to the dignity of a theological faculty of the said university, or by founding and main taining'it Roman Catholic university, with equal rank, .endowments, and privileges with those of the University of Dublin, or by such other means as her Majesty in her wisdom and benevolence may deem fit,- adequately to supply the deficiencies now complained of, and, as far as may be, effectually provide for the future moral and in tellectual wants of the Roman Catholic inhabitants ; thus promoting the advancement and happiness, 'not of -Roman Catholics only, but of all 'Classes and pefsuasions of the Irish people." He would wish to exclude all partisan and political con siderations in the consideration of this question. An impression had gone abroad, that he (Mr. Wyse) had, 'on a previous occasion, endeavoured to disparage the *utility and importance of the Dublin University. No thing could bo further from his intention. He had been •educated himself there, and entertained the most devoted affection for the institution. He had no reason to com plain of any unjust interference of the Dublin University with the religion of its pupils. During his time there he never had observed it, and he believed that, as far as their rules and regulations permitted, nothing could be more tolerant. But, he did not think that the rules of that University were made in a spirit of toleration, and that it could be made much more beneficial to the Catholic community than it was at present.—(Hear, hear.) Nor were the difficulties in making it so great as were generally supposed. It was no longer contended that education was 'not necessary to enable men to govern and obey properly; and subjects of every. Government had a right to claim from it instruction, in at least the elementary princi ples of education. The elementary education of the people had engaged successive Governments, and he must say that they had promoted it by every means in their power. He had called upon the Government of that day to throw open the University to Catholics, or to help, to establish a Catholic University_ by its side. He did this while lie had the honour to be a Member of that Government, and.he was there to repeat his solici tation- to the' present Govermnenti when new circum stances had arisen, and when the case had become more argent., - The first view which naturally presentid itself" - to their eyes, was the number of universities in existence' in Ireland. The College of Maynooth had no pretea sions to be called; a university, still less the academy of Belfast. He would ask whether any other country in Europe was similarly situated to Ireland, with respect to her universities: Was there any other country where there was but one university to 8,000,000 of inhabitant's. He looked round him, and directed his attention to Ger 'many. He found that in Germany there was an aggre gate of eet less than forty universities. He found that in the smallest States in that country there were large and flourishing establishments. If he looked to. Prussia, were there were only twelve millions of inhabitants, he found that there were not less than six universities. He looked. to Belgium and to Holland, and he found that the in habitants were better provided with respect to the uni versities, in proportion to the inhabitants, than in Ger many. He found that there were four universities, and in Belgium four. In Belgium there were two millions and a half of inhabitants, and in Holland there were four mil lions. Tn Holland there were in the universities 900 students, and in Belgium, 1,400. In France, too, it was the same— there were universities all over France. Even in Italy, in the Pope's dominions, which had been so much vilified, there were five secondary universities, and two principal ones. In the small state of Florence there were not less than ten universities. So in America. From north to south universities were continually rising up. In a few days they would be called upon to vote an estimate for not less than four . universities, while that country did not contain more than two millions of inhabitants, and in Ireland there was but one university for eight millions of inhabitants. It was said that this must ne cessarily be a Protestant university, and therefore it was impossible to convert that university to Catholic pur poses. There was a misconception on both these points —misconception with respect to the original character of the endowment, and misconception as to the means by which it might be converted. It need not be converted to Catholic purposes, but it should be; open to national purposes,, , whether those pur poses were Protestant or Catholic. The University of Dublin was generally supposed to have been founded by Elizabeth. This was partly true, but the foundation established by Elizabeth was only an atonement for the loss of the ancient University. The old Uni versity of Ireland was founded in the year 1312, by John Elyard, Archbishop of Dublin, who obtained from Pope Clement V. a bull for its foundation. After a considerable time that University fell into disuse, and it was supplied by other institutions for the learning of the people. In the year 1475 the University was re established in the capital city of the kingdom, in consequence of a memorial which was addressed to Pope Pius IV., who issued a bull, authorising the new foundation. This Catholic university obtained the ap probation of the monarch of the day, as well as of the holy see. This university continued in existence until the confiscation of the monasteries, when it fell with other institutions in Ireland ; and it was not again es tabliihed till the time of Elizabeth. It continued in ex istence during the successive times of trouble, and during that time the ,preservation of the library and other valuable parts of the institution was principally attributed to the Catholic members of that university. In 1703, however, an Act was passed bywhich Catholics were excluded from that university, and this Act had re mained in force down to the present time. Students en tering :the university were, by the present rules, com pelled to take the Sacrament, and give other proofs of their being members of the Protestant persuasion. Now, the same authority that had established those rules, could, if it thought fit, repeal them ; and there was no reason why there should not be added a number of Ca tholic fellowships to those now in existence. He would now proceed to • inquire what were the funds and the means within their power of extending the benefits to this institution. He had not been able to get at any accurate account of the funds of this College ; the re turns did not state ,them, and, therefore, he (Mr Wyse): had been compelled to get indirectly such in- formation as he could. The chief funds were derived from land, not less than 231,000 acres in extent. The exact value of this land he knew not, but its general state of cultivation and improvement was, he be lieved, about equal to Bishops' lands in that country. Still they had an immense estate, the product of which must, even under the most disad vantageous management, be exceedingly great. Next to the revenue from , land, was the revenue from fees, which amounted to 5,6091. 15s. This sum was from fees. Here then were the means of extensive usefulness, had they the power and authority by law to effect it. They had that power by special Act of Parliament. By the 14th and 15th of Charles 11., the Lord Lieutenant, by and with the advice of his Council, had the power to erect from these funds another college, to be called King's College, and the endowment of the said college was to be reonlated and governed, not by the old law of Elizabeth, but by such laws and institutions as her Majesty might think fit. Therefore they had the power to establish another college, and they had moreover the power to establish new institutions, different from ,those which otherwise might prevail, and whi c h c ou ld be made in perfect consonance and harmony with the habits, manners, and opinions of the present day. Nqw he would'turn to his second point. They had a Roman Catholic population to deal with in Ireland. They had admitted that that population ought to be educated— that the whole population of this great country ought to be educated, or why had they for sessions past-,—why had they this very session—voted money and passed laws for this very purpose?—(Hear, hear.) And they had declared, too that all education to be sound jhould be religious.—(Tory cheers.). Then, ought they not to be most careful of the religious education of this .religious educator?—(Cheers.) Ought they not to afford the very best means in their power to educate the. priests of Ireland that the people of Ireland might be educated too. And yet all they did was give them ‘ May"- nooth—a miserable hovel—and to dole out a few Paltry pounds with the niggard hand - of cold charity.—(Hear.) He, asked Honourable Gentlemen on the other sicl, set ting aside all political questions, to consider the subject, and see if something could not be' done to remedy the grievances of which the Catholics complained. But then it was said this could not be accomplished. Ho said that it might, eithir by annexing Maynooth and the College at Belfast with the University of Dublin, making the college at publin the proper place for the education of Protestants,; Alay nooth for Catholics, and Belfast for the Presbyterians ; by that means they would link the professors of the different religions in Christian brotherhood) But it might be said; would Maynooth agree to this ?" or would Dublin allow a new intruder, or become the abettor of Presbyterians ? There would be not l ing of the sort ; he could not see why the same tours could not be adopted with respect to the University of üblin, and Maynooth, and Belfast, 'as had been done N th re spect to Oxford, King's College, and the Londe lUni versity. He would 'aggregate the three, giving each of them the power of conferring degrees in eve thing except theology. He did not think the college of elfast would object to this ; and if, upon consideration, 't was found impossible, there was no other course le t open but to establish a Catholic university in Ire nd.— (Hear, hear.) If they would not give them th first, they owed them the second. There were places n Ire land where universities might be established ; i Cork they might lay the foundation of Catholic inst ction. lie wished to lay these observations before the Right Hon. Baronel, knowing. that at this particular oment . _._ _ - it would be impossible to take the opinion of the, upon the question, nor indeed did he wish to do would leave it for the present session in the hi the Right Hon. Baronet. House ;o ; he inds of Sir R. PEEL said he believed he was statin what would be in conformity with the feeling of the House, and of both sides of the House, when he said that no Member of that House was better entitled to take up the subject than the Hon. Gentleman. He kn w that no Member of that House had devoted more time and attention to the subject of the best means of spteading the advantages of education throughout the entry. He must also say that the Right Honourable ember had another qualification besides that of exper ence— the high qualification of discussing the subject w th that temper and moderation which ensured, amids all the , animosities that divided them, an impartial and avour able consideration of the question. He rejoice , then, that the Hon. Gentleman had brought forward is mo tion, and that he had made his observations in a manner that precluded him from taking the sense of the House upon it. The vote they were now discussing was .one for English education, and he presumed the Right Hon. Gentleman had made his observations on that vo e so as to preclude them from coming to a hostile decis on, and he rejoiced that the House was not to be calle on to give an expression of its opinion. The Right Ho ourable j Member had alluded to the state of elementar , educa tion in Ireland. It must be admitted tat the state of this elementary education was satis tisfactory. Her Majesty's Government had ma i nifested a desire to add to the efficiency of that system. The vote last year for the national system of education was 50,000/. They proposed in the present year to ask for an addition of 25,0001., making for the present year the sum of 75,000/. Within a very short time, there had been a report laid on the table of the House; signed by the Commissioners, which stated that the ;number of schools was 2,721, attended by 319,792 children, the increase of attendance in the present year over the last being 35,000. The report also stated that the un founded impressions that prevailed with respect to this system of education were rapidly disappearing. So far, then, the state of elementary education in Ireland was a subject of congratulation. With respect to the other subject, he had great satisfaction in assuring the Right Hon. Gentleman that it was one that occupied the serious consideration of her Majesty's Government. The Hon. Gentleman must excuse him if, on this occasion' he purposely forebore from making any statement on the subject, not because he was not prepared to enter into details; but it would be impossible in the course of the present session to submit any practical measure on the subject. It would be infinitely better to avoid al together entering into sucligibtails, which must be stated many months before they could be carried into effect. But he had no hesitation in stating the result of the consideration that they had given the subject—it was, that the means of academical education in Ire land were very defective.—(Hear, hear.) There were institution§ in the character of universities—Trinity College, Dublin, the Belfast Institution, and the College of Maynooth. As far as the education of the laity was concerned=-the academical education of those of more advanced years than were intended - to be included in the national system of education—when they compared it with the means of education and the population of other countries, it was impossible net to sed Iliat those means were comparatively deficient. He did not at all under value the effect of .the upper classes in Ireland being educated in the universities of England. It was a bond of connexion between the two countries. The Hoo. Member had not proposed' any plan on' the subject; and this was a reason why he should ab stain from expressing an opinion as to a preference. He repeated the declaration he had made, that this subject had occupied the serious consideration of her Majesty's Government, and that it was one to which the attention of his - NobTe — Friend, who was abOiffiriisatinie the 'Chief. office in Ireland had been directed. At as early period of next session the Government would com mence the measures which it was the jr intention to adopt; and if those were unsuccessful, the Right Hon. Gentleman would 'have an opportunity of introducing a measure of his own. With regard totlie College of Mayrtooth, he would not hesitate to say that it was not in a satisfac tory state.—(Cheers form the Opposition.) If the mo ney granted to Maynooth was a violation of principle, it was equally a violation of principle whether it was small or great ; and he had no hesitation in saying that the present amount was inadequate to meet the purposes for whjch it was granted. He would say no more on the subject but that he was impressed with the conviction that it was not in a satisfactory state, and that the posi tion of that College would be one of the subjects to which her Majesty's Government would direct their at tention.—(Hear, hear.) If he entered into details it would be most likely to raise objections, and he woul.l therefore abstain from doing so.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. SHEIL said they were indebted to his Right Hon. Friend, not only for an admirable exposition, but for an excellent speech, characterised by wisdom and by Moderation ; and for being the means of inducing the Right. Hon. Gentleman to make the important declara tions of opinion which he had just announced, and which he, for one, must praise reluctantly but most sin cerely.—(Hear, and a laugh.) For the assurances he gave he could not but be thankful. Amongst the other incidents in the Right 'Hon. Gentleman's speech, there was this excellent one, that he availed himself of this oc casion of acknowledging the thanks which his Right Hon. Friend had earned for his labours in the cause of education for many years; always useful, but to a great extent unknown.—(Hear, hear.) He knew that the Education Commission, introduced by the late Govern ment, was founded on the suggestion of his Right Hon.: Friend ; and that the plan which they introduced was sketched by him. He would only make one suggestion. His Right Hon. Friend referred to a statute of Charles the SeCond. There was a more important statute than that, viz., the Act of 1791 It was pro vided by the 7th section of the 33d of George 111., chap. 21, that Roman Catholics might hold or take de grees of any professors, or be masters or fellows of any college to be hereafter founded, provided that such should be members of the University of Dublin. The College of the Holy Trinity was to be exclusively for Protestant purposes, but in, any other colleges, to be hereafter founded, Protestants and Roman Catholics were to be equally admissible. Thus one of the great difficulties at tending this subject would disappear, and if any person should say that they were sapping the foundations of the Church, show him this Act of Parliament, in which was contained its refutation.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BELLEW said he intended to speak at some length on this question, but after the excellent speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, he would not detain the House. He thought that if the Government supported the College of Maynooth, as it ought to be supported, they would have sufficient control over the Catholic priesthood. Lord J. MANNERS said he could not refrain from expressing his cordial thanks to the Government for the announcement made that night by the Right lion. Baronet. He took that announcement as an earnest of a more consistent and a more prosperous line of policy for the future, as an earnest of the necessity of governing Ireland on the only true and sound prin ciple on which it could be governed.—(Hear, hear.) Ile trusted that the sentiments expressed by the Right Hon. Baronet would be carried into effect, and that the result would be as prosperous as he was sanguinely inclined to think it would be. He thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite for the temperate manner in which he broughtlorward his motion. He came down for the purpose ai` supporting the views disclosed in his motion, and he took that opportunity of 'again ex pressing his cordial thanks to the Government for the line of policy they indicated that night.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. GROGAN said the announcement of the Right Hon. Gentleman would take Ireland by surprise ; the people of that country were not prepared for such a comprehensive measure. In commencing this work he hoped they would bear in mind that the national system of education now in existence had not been an apple of peace, but in them a source of discord.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever colleges might be established, he hoped the principles of the Protestant Church would be borne in mind. • Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN begged to inquire whe ther he had rightly understood the Hon. Member for Waterford, that if the Government did not found col leges for the Roman Catholics, they would be driven to found them for themselves, in a spirit of hostility to the Protestant Church ? Mr. WYSE said nothing could be more remote from his intention than to say that the Roman Catholics would establish a college for the purpose of expressing their hostility to the Protestant body. What he had said was, that if the dovernment did not sympathise with them, and open the University of Dublin, and improve the College of Maynooth, so as to secure their participation in the intellectual rewards of the country, they would be driven to establish a university of their own, which, though it might be productive of some considerable ad vantage, would, as regarded rivalry and competition, be hostile to the Establishment. The motion for granting 40,0001. for education in Great Britain was then carried. On the motion that 72,0001. be granted to her Majesty for education in Ireland, Colonel VERNER said he had in the last session moved for a return connected with this grant. Ho did not wish to accuse any person connected with the Na tional Board of having wilfully made a false return, but the return which had been made was very incorrect. There was a school at Newry which had been omitted in the return. He should not move to have the returns amended, for they would serve his purpose even in their present state. He would state a fact which had been re lated to him, and which would show the state of instruc tion in those schools. An inquest had been held in one of the school-houses connected with the National Board. and when the witnesses were called, there could not be found a copy of the Testament either in the schobl or in the schoolmaster's house, on which to swear the witnesses. Mr. M. MTLNES thought that if the proposal of her Majesty's Government had been received in a better spirit by the Protestant clergy in Ireland, there would have been less fear of the recurrence of those evils which the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman had adverted to than at present existed.—(Hear, hear.) He rose with great pleasure to express the entire sympathy which he felt with everything that had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, and if the pro posal of the Right Hon. Gentleman should be carried out there would not be a laurel upon his brow that would last longer or brighter. Mr. PLUMPTRE could not look upon this increase in the Maynooth grant as one that was called for on natural grounds. He felt that the Protestants of Ireland would consider themselves wounded, if not neglected, by this proposal of her Majesty's Government. The Prime Minister had been much congratulated by j Hon. Gentle men opposite, but he felt that he was not justified in fol lowing them. He felt that he ought not to attempt to foster principles, which as a Protestant it was his duty to abjure; and he was sure that the proposition of the Government. would not be received by the Protestants of this country in the same spirit with which it had been received in that House. Ile should, therefore, divide the Committee against it, even though he stood alone in doing so. Lord PALMERSTON said he merely rose to concur in the expressions of satisfaction at the way in which his Hon. Friend the Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse) had brought forward his motion, and also at what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) in reply to it. He trusted, by next session, that the Right Hon. Gentleman would be able to arrange a goods and useful measure, and he might rest assured that, from that side of the House, as well as from other quarters, he would receive a willing and hearty support. Mr. LEFROY said, while ho honoured the conduct of the Gentleman who brought forward this motion (Mr. Wyse), as it was consistent with all his former expressed opinions, he must beg to express his regret at the lan guage of the Prime Minister, which, if not inconsistent with his own language on former occasions, was at all events greatly at variance with what a large body of his supporters had a right to expect from him.—(Hear.) Mr. ROSS heartily rejoiced at the progress education was making in Ireland. He was also delighted th.at from the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet hopes might now be entertained, that education in Ireland would be placed on a proper footing. The question was then put and carried, that 72,0001. should be granted to her Majesty, to defray the expenses of education in Ireland. The sum 0f9,0001. was then proposed as the usual grant to the College of Maynooth. Sir G. CLERK said he believed there was an inten tion to divide on the vote, but he understood it would not be further discussed. Lord CLIVE hoped that the Government would ex tend a grant to the Church Education Society of Ireland. Mr. D. BROWNE said, if the Church did not avail itself of a national system of education, it was not the fault of the Government ; andit should be remembered that the Church had 800,0001. a year, to apply to the spiritual teaching of the people. Lord C. HAMILTON said the schools of the Church Society were also open to all who chose to enter them. He thought the schools were equally entitled to a grant from the Government. Sir R. PEEL said the vote for the national schools had been agreed to, and he apprehended that the vote now before the House was the usual vote to the Col lege of Maynooth. The Government had declined to give a separate grant to the Church Education So ciety, on the ground that if they did, there would soon be three separate systems of education—the Rom an Catholic, the Established Church, and one for the Presbyterians, who would soon claim with the others. This would rather tend to prevent that friendly feeling and union among the subjects of the Queen differing in their religious faith that was so much to be desired. The present system was intended for a joint system, and it was hoped that the children of Erotestants and Roman Catholics might be able to receive together in early life the inestimable benefits of education.—(Hear, hear.) He did hope the hostility which was shown to the sys tem at its earlier stages had much abated. Several clergymen who had Tormerly opposed it were now ranked amongst its supporters, and he believel that very erro neous impressions respecting it had been removed. A Noble Lord said that 33,000 children were educated in the Established Church schools. What he (Sir R. Peel) feared was, that under an exclusive system these chil dren might leave such schools. They were not, there fore, denying any fair claim of the Establishmeut to .consideration in this matter, but really only acting from a desire not to sow what might prove the seed of farther discord. Before he concluded, he must express a hope that Hon. Members would not draw too sanguine con clusions from what had fallen from him in the earlier part of the evening. What he had said was simply . this—that Lher Majesty's Government were of . oginioa that the means of academical education in Ireland were defectii4,7,at'that theY intended to apply themseltes to the considera#ca of that subject in a friendly and.kindlY addln (he hope of being able to holt out—not to Roman... Catholics only, but to the people of Ireland ge nerally, a system of academical education in which all classes Might alike participate.—(Hear, hear.) He has said, also, ,that the Government ,did not think that the situation of the College of Maynooth was satisfactory, and that that part of the subject would not be excluded froth their consideration. --261.r.-BELLEW said 80,000/. a-year was exclusively ap .plied to the education of PrOtestants, besides the means at the disposal of Trinity College ; so that the CathoPits were Those who had a right to complain. Mr. S. O'BRIEN said than the Right Hon. Baronet had misapprehended what had fallen from kis Noble Friend, the Member for Tyrone. He underlood his Noble Friend to say, not that he wished for a sopb,sate State education in connexion with the State, but that as there was a Church society in Ireland, they ought to get a portion of the grant. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Committee divided, when there appeared— For the vote 87 Against it Majority for the vote The House then resumed ; the Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again on Monday at five o'clock. • Mr. SIIEIL gave notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on Monday. he would move that a: Select Committee be appointed to inquire and report how the French 'possessions in Afriea were acquired, and how far their extension is consistent with the politieal and com mercial interests of this country. - - Sir-RA/EEL-said he must say that it was the mos i t ,extraordinary motion he had ever heard. ENDOWMENT 111. LL. The House then went into Committee on the Church Endowment The House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received on Monday next. TIIREE r AND-A-HALF, PER CENTS. DISSENT!" •TIEN liS BILL. The House then resolved itself into Commitire, in order to enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pro pose a resolution, on which to found a Bill for paying off the dissentienta from the commutation of the Three and-a-Half per Cents. Stock. The CITANCE . 4LOR of the EXCHEQUER, in pro posing his resolution, said that the number of dissen tients was only to the amount of 113,000 L, and that he was of opinion, that even that sum would be leesened. The resolution was agreed to. The House resumed, and the resolution wac ordered :o be reported on Monday. Sir JAMES GRAllAltf.obtained leave to bring in a Bill for, suspending, until the. 31st day of December, 184'7, the operation of the new arrangement of dio ceses, so far as it affects the existing ecclesiastical juris dictions, and for obtaining returns from and the in spection of the registries of such jurisdiction. The other orders of the day were thea disposed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter before Two o'C lock. NAVAL INTELLIGENCE. ROYAL MARINE CORPS. —A courismartial is being held at Woolwich, Colonel Mercer, president, on First- Lieutenant Charles Louis, for being found absent from his chits. last • week at Deptford Dockyard, when the stores* Madras was on fire. We believe it will etoce It is likely the above circumstance w/11 cause some alteration to be made in the number of officers appointed to the guard at Deptford; at present oily one captain and two subalterns have the whole of the duty to per form with 1 - 50 men, consequently only on A portion of every third day is the subaltern off duty; and the cap tain maybe considered to be always on duty. It is said the authorities will order a field officer in command, vrAth a proportionate number of subordinate officers, to such a charge. It has been a matter of surprise that among the pro motions which have lately appeared in the Gazette Qf officers belonging to this gallant corps, the name of the officer who commanded the guard of honour at the em barkation of the Emperor of Russia, and who was in troduced to his Imperial Majesiy, has not appeared. We hear this officer stands alone, as baring received neither present nor promotion. The Earl of Haddington and the other Lgds of tl►e Admiralty visited Deptford Dockyard on Tuesday, and mustered the officers and men belonging to the esta blishment. The Collingtvood, 80, Captain H. Eden, bent sans and crossed topgallant-yards on Tuesday, and it is ex pected will leave Portsmouth Harbour for Spithead on Saturday. She has a very fide set of men on board, to all appearance, both as respects their physical and sailor-like qualities. She will be ready for sea on the 25th instant. The Queen, 110, Coptain Martin, was taken into dock at Portsmouth, on Monday, all standing, with her middle and main-deck guns in, and all her shores on board, under the charge of Mr. Bellamy, the master. On Tuesday 'morning her pendant was re-hoisted, being Commissioned by Lieutenant Robert Hall, s of the Camperdown. She will , remain in dock ufitil some alteration is made in her cabins and other in ternal fittings. Her copper is in good condition, it merely requiring the edges of the sheets to be beaten down. The commissions of the . other officers are not dated. As soon as the stores of the 'Camperdown are returned, till) , and the crew will be turned over to the Queen, usifig the Camperdown for their hulk until the Queen is out of dock, which will not be until the next spring tides. The Seaflower, cutter, Lieutenant Commander Robil liard, it has been found, requires extensive repairs. The shipwrights are at work on her, in the ditch dock, Posts • mouth. , The Superb, 80, advanced ship, has keen taken into dock to bp. cleaned. The Indus, 78, supernumerary advanced ship for Portsmouth, instead of the Malabar, was undockod, at Devonport, on Tuesday morning. The Terrible, steam-frigate, building at Deptford, is to have tubular bone*, and small engines .to••frteh the boilers. The Firefly, surveying steam• vessel, Captain F. W. Beechy, arrived at Devonport on Tuesday evening, to be paid advance wages, previously to commencing her sur. veying, duties. The Lyra, 4, old brig, is to be fitted wit% jury gear, at Devonport, and taken to Greatham Creek, by the Vulcan revenue steam-vessel, Lieut.-Commander Baker, where she is to be stationed as a watch-vessel for the Customs. SMUGGLING AT DEVONPORT.—The barque Edward, belonging to Mr. Thomas Restarick, merchant, of this town, arrived at this port, on Sunday, from Quebec, with a cargo of timber. On the Custom-house officers examining her, they discovered nearly 700 cwt. cif tobacco in the forehold. The ship was immediately put under surveillance of the authorities, and the crew were taken into custody. PonTsmouTn.—Free-mart fair is now in full force, and is said to be more fully attended than for many years past. The paying off the Queen and Childers has made a fine harvest for the fair people. LOSS OF THE MATILDA AND THE ADDINGHAM. " Foreign-office, July 17, 1844. " SIR,—I am directed by the Earl of Aberdeen to transmit to you,' for the information of the Chairman and Committee at Lloyd's, copies of two dispatches from her Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires and Consul-greneral In Chili, reporting the wreck of the British ships•Matildh and Addingham.—l am, Sir, • " Your most obedient humble se ant, (Signed) " C.MCNING. " To William Dobson, Esq., &c. &c., Lloyd's." " Santiago, Jan. 3, 1844. " MY LORD,—lnclosed is the copy of the declaration of the Master of the British merchant brig Matitkila, having relation to the wreck of that vessel in the Archi pelago of Guaticas in the month of October last. The said declaration, taken before the Intendent of the Pro vince of Chili, has been conveyed to me by the Minister of State for Foreign Affairi.—l have, &c. (Signed) " JOHN WALPOLE. " The Earl of Aberdeen, K.T., &c. &c." The declaration of Captain George Dawson, of the brig Matilda, above referred to is to the effect, that on the 4th of last October he sailed from Valparaiso, bound for -Buenos Ayres and Monte Video, with a cargo of wheat and Brazil wood ; that 16 days -after, in lat. 42 5 S,, lon. 77 40 44 W., she was struck by ft heavy sea, which' carried away the galley, all the water casks on deck, the boat, and one side of her upper works, from which ac cident the vessel began to leak ; that the Rumps beeame choaked with the wheat that was stowed iii bulk ; utag: that the crew, under the circumstances, infatined him, that unless he at once made for the nearest coast, they would take possession of the vessel, and pave their lives at all risks. That after this intimation he continued his course for half an hour, but seeing that t>hAi. water was increasing, and that his officers were of tile same opinion as the sailors, he steered for the nearest land, and immediately began throwing cargo overboatal.; that when the vessel was lightened by this expedient they discovered that the head of a plank had been started. In forty-four hours after bearing up, they an chored in the Guaiticas ; that the vessel remained about eight days waterlogged, when she foundered altogether, on account of the heavy gales which they expeitenoed. They afterwards came to this port in a boat belonging to the captain, bringing with them of what belonged to the vessel, her long-boat and three sails, one of which the sailors cut up fur clothes, and they sold the ethez two, together with the long-boat, to support themselves, and to pay the freight of a vessel whieh brought them from Guaiticas to this city. " Santiago, Jan. 17, 1844. " Sir,—l have received from her Majtsty's Consul at Valparaiso, the copy of a note addressed to him by the French Acting , Consul at that port, of which I have the honour to enclose a copy " This document covers the report of fie master.of a, French whaling vessel, Le Fleur's, du I avre, wrecked during the month of November last, in the Straits of Magellan, in which is mentioned tile discovery of the hull of a British vessel, the L'Adelingham (probably the Addinghatn), T. E. Hobson, master, which cleated out from Newcastle on the 28th of June, laden with coals for the Pacific Steam Navigation Company, acid empty bottles, and had not since been . heard of, which born every appearance of having been the victim of the igni tion of the cargo. . •" This vessel was lying in a small bay Nigthin these Straits, without the vestige of a human being en board. The crew supposed to have saved themselves on some part of the neighbouring land.—l have, &c. (Signed) " JOkiN WALPOLE. " John Bidlewell, Esq." l