The Sun. — London, England, 1845-06-05 00:00:00

I . been -.) of the broad gauge engines over the narrow, l'e'"" it had t n „., 1401, ed by Mr. Stephenscn, the very first engineer of this C ile "tr7, that there were engines on the London and Birmingham ev il *h ick in point of speed, equalled the broad gauge bieri t ". The Learned Counsel then went into the engineering _ t s of the line, and concluded by calling on the Committee paamelPtpearotrivetible jitt the scheme for the Great Western Company, and declare of the Bill for the London and Birmingham Corn volutibe_ The ra tio ~_. delib- 1 7 , d Was then c l eared, and after some time occupe i cl,sioeiinn it was an nounced to the parties that the 1 ,,.. Men at t welve o'clock to morrow. ."' Committee then adjourned. _ PA RLIAMEN TARP DIVISIONS. (. D . ~_ --" . 4 Fe* end Proceedings of the House of Commons.) TUESDAY, JUNE 3. /to,- Del LANDED INTEREST. 04 4 re ~. e, and Question put ,\ That a Select Committee be ap slrectls quire whether there ' are any peculiar burdens specially Mon t l th e Landed ~, en ,„ Interest of this Country, or any peculiar ex -swat', The by that Interest, and to ascertain their nature and me Helve di, ided , ' ti t.i 'l , s , ra, wiiiiitra MI NORITY—AXEs, 109. 14,„!: Walter Eseott, liickhain Pechell, Captain , 11 , 4 rei s rtn .., ~ A. Ewart, William Philips, G. R. e5„ 6 „ . :,....0 avid Pitzwilliarn, G. W. Philips, Mark Forster, 'Matthew l'lumridge. Captain I lerZ, ,e • T. Fox C. It Pulsford, Robert k rk - e . ..1 " .! Vi'elsuut Gibs'on,M titter: Rawdon, Colonel Iter k ;!, Cra ven lt*. ' llelph Gill, Thomas ltedington, h u.s itm,i i j Granger, T. C. tourrte, c ,.. Grey, Sir George tri ri ng,l) r. r 1 R e i e P a t r ° ,lc; , ( . Ir l . P. I L V .. j . Hawes, Benjamin Ross, D. It. lin:l 4 ohr, lleathcoat, John Rumbold, C. E. 11 kalt e ,,_ li m iau lt, J. Inn, Lord M. Sheridan, It. B. 'we -4 , Jos e ~. Hiudiey, Charles Smith, Vernon es h, C. J. Howard, C. W. Stanstield, W. It. C. 4,Si; G . -_,'• Dowick, Viscount Stanton, W. 11. (1 1 1 4 ,11, n ''''• Hume, Joseph Stuart, Lord J. thi et e re, J. ur Hutt, William Strickland, Sir CL el k' le' N . D. Langston, J. H. Strutt, Edward Coiel', 84 W. Layard Captain Tattered, 11. W. t06, 1 2 , 0ke s ir ,„ Lemon, , Sir C. Trail!, Geor 4e C07+4011 4 `• Leveson, Lord Trelawny, J. S. c tit irr, w . p. Mangles, R. D. Tufuell, Henry Gs:',. w.G. Manners, Lord J. Villiers, Charles ei lli .' ' "4 ' W. s alarjoribanks, S. Vivian, J. H. btl 4 ' 11 . /I • u, c..., 21 3 l i ttr ar s t h in a , 11 jo l i V in illlam Walker, Richard qlll • Warburton, K. 14, 41 6 34,1,. v".•Plant 3 litcalfe, Henry Watson, W. H. b Ev n ist°4 n, J. Mitchell, T. A. 'Wawn, John T b u w:.e.oar t,c. ~, Morris, David Williams, William bs,L 4ll , Vis,„„': Morison, General Wilshere, W. rapier, Sir C. Wood, Charles h. ant (N.) 134 44 448 04, 46 F ise : Ds ,Voyili,aiiretn,,N3'irsc J. Worsbey, Lord nelse l 44 ° ) Iral ..,,..._,Pr edepi ‘.. O'Fertall, it. M. 'Wrightson, W. B. ti - . 4,DD a v i e 4 Ord, William 'I,,W TELLBSO. tlig l i t : 1 111 Palmerston, Viscount Ward, H. G. • toi le, 11. Parker, John Cobden, It. I'attison, Janice 404 w 4444(1 , Sir ,? , M AJORITY —NOES, 182. A cto ,, 'Lb:- Douglas, Sir C. March, Earl kai:',,eolo r , e , Dough's, J. D. S. Martin, C. W. leatr e i:. l'. 4 Drummond, 11. H. Martin, T. B. Ittis,,,, Duncombe, A. Maxwell, J. P. 4 .4.,,.'hett,ir u ld Du Pre, C. G. Meynell, Captain Ak e 'Vtm, ~.,:_ Eaton, It. J. Miles, 1' W. S. t..est-ell.Wial-Qg. Emlyn, Viscount Miles, William 111,% J e* ** Farnham, e,. B. Mordaunt, Sir J. 4 .14 ' 1 ; t'I'l Pellowes, Edward Mundy, E. M. kr ke; en,.- "1. Muer, Sir E. Neeld, Joseph t er i ltNz u e Fitzmaurice, W. Neeld, John Fitzroy, Henry Newdegate, C. N illi skeir ii ia: , Vi.„ Plower, Sir James Nicholl, John i t z et, w I,l' . tint Fremantle, Sir T. Norreys, Lord , Gardner, J. D. O'Brien, A. S. liestiktitll444l Gaskell,J. M. • Pakington, J. S. Iti ee k, Lord 1,, Itb s ra f ., Glynne, Sir S. Palmer, Robert ziee6, , lle,,y . i.". Gordon, Captain Palmer, George 4 re il!k e - r ., I,i..`i Gore, Montague Patten, J. W. r l dero: 4 ,,atiel li i r , Goring, Charles Peel, Sir ltobert zotth lti. . G . n Goulburn, Henry Peel, Jonathan Zttle d t ,,,Pet er Graham, Sir J. Pennant, Colonel Z u Me s ' 'eri a ), Granby, Marquis Plumptre, J. I'. Pusey, Philip il i. 3l ,4 , 4 i tir eir - Z . Greenall, Peter I k4 to ' Greene, Thomas Rashle gh, W. t oo , a, I . ,„. Grimsditch, T. Round, C. G. Ilt,Z , Sir " Crimston, Viscount Russell, J. D. W. ~.1 1r eee ' 1 4 rd E . Grogan, Edward Ryder, G. D. kVIN, ,V, L Belford, Sir 11. Sanderson, Richard ,Ir '„e . . Hamilton, J. H. Sandon, Viscount t,, c c, L. li f ... Hamilton, W. J. Scott, Francis 1t4 117 ) % tdrr, Shaw, Frederick Harcourt, a " h r, . ...,,,„... ,_. G . .iitit, .1r,j,,„7.1/4, Harris, Captain Smith, T. B. C. k 4 4:1 ). • ll ' ni a „ . Hayes, Sir E. Smyth, Sir I/. rro -, Sir d ) . Heatimeote, G. J. Soiuersot, Lord G. C kt 4118, H. Heneage, G. 11. W. Sotheron, T. 11. t Pbeli • IV' Spry, Sir S. T. ~.erqw „,J. 4 • Henley, J. W. vtr e .._'4, ta w ' Hepburn, Sir T. Stanley, Edward th e 4, Xr . 4 ard Herbert, Sidney Stewart, John 4.1.,,,,,,,1de1e,:1::. Holmes, W. A'Court Stuart, Henry elloalter, ii 'l• Hope, Charles Sutton, 11. M. (ho a , L. • 4 - slope, Alexander Tennent, J. E. .1., 11, E . , 'lope, G. W. Thesiger, Sir F. tq ii t : Sir 4. Hotham, Lord Thompson, Alderman `11 , .. e n, Joh n ~rg° Hussey, Thomas Thornhill, George '(, ) eltis i l' l l. 4 ' James, Sir W. C. Tollemache, John pl i e, IC' Sir 0 Jermyn, Earl Tower, Christopher , Irt •4. • Johnstone, Hope Trench, Sir F. W. to e, c Trollope, Sir J. 4to, •H. Jolliffe, Sir W. q 44.14, C, Jones, Ca,,tain Trotter, John Turner, Christopher Aid Lefroy, Antimony NtLiteitry Ai d e Legit, G. C. Ty. - , ell, Sir J. T. l e P l)l Z 3' ' 1 . 0 Iv, rd Liddell, H. T. Verner, Colonel Vernon, G. H. Il t 'uY, o,ZLara Lincoln, Earl of Vivian, J. Ennis Ole % „ rg e Lockhart, W. Waddington, 1.1. S. 1 7 .;;A:m " " 1,1 A Lygon, General tl', w• S. Mackenzie, T. Walsh, Sir J. B. r 41 ' 1 1 1'41114 1 1. Mackenzie, W. F. Wellesley, Lord C. /il k i l t , lej 13 . M'Geachy, F. A. li, ? _ M'Neill, Duncan eeli . ts : tl. Mahon, Viscount Mainwarii.g, T. 1,,,,_ TELLER 3. T oung, John Lennox, Lord A. , —4t-LIA.IVIENTARY BUSINESS. (IN lie TUESDAY, JUNE 3. k heak, weastle-upon-Tyne and North Shields Railway t considered ; 1. 446 6 4tll Ext • & ) Bill,—RePor „ ititit, ension, c. ,tesczAtgreed to; amendments. proposed, and referred St an --I'lninittee on Standing Orders. k i, 1041 r., in u „, 4av Orders Committee,—Resolutions reported; stki. ••4 on • • tt '". wat tp .'" the case of the Trent t t V h a e l a le t yn e l n l d a tn iß e v n a t y .s ß .n i t l e l lh e e a ,COnslderation of repor_, if tiZtUre as to justify the House in entertaining , , ;7,8411 think fit." are It t i ; h 1 . 4 1 1 111 4 , la the case of the Edinburgh and Glasgow nt ß s ail (1)11,;(ell 4-21111ent on third reading, the amendments are 3:' it tll 37 t ,. 4 re as to justify the House 1ht:1,4114_ !eall think fit." b . e 4 :lw 42 11 the case of the Cromford Canal Bill amend ' the ca,,Krto the amendments are of such a nnamtuitre ventoi. 4. ,4 1 1 13 ° Y the House without the re-coi 411 are e „, itt in ti,„ and Huntingdon Railway - 4 tle ll a , - "lntot a ease of the Ely e am endments are of 44 th , " I ttlre , Iht third readin, cbtlls.beqitaaltl, t . h.i — l n ht li t. ll , s , tify the Houser n entertaining them, Sessional O rd er e. por t e t o al diL l4 e t n se t l Te ll -40CriasetoofrtehpeorLt,adti;'es.Island and dTacum ou s g li i i i n t ... 6 . 4° r befur:',l,th :--That the parties be permitted to r adornet, i o ".',.ue 16th June." Nunt a 0 "le ease of the Lynn and Ely R ar d e il e s f va s 3 a ' c r' h il a l el i , te a s t in third reading, the amendments .. 11 thir,k°ollatify the House in entertaining them, if they It .4,1,..0 Improvement, Ort k 't, a ri t c i Ltl th e case of the Lyme Regis kitt;rdotight to aterworks petition to report, the Sessional 8 -:' t o repo°).l,3e dispensed with :—That the parties be per- Wily 4 4 ilk , i ' on or before the 11th Jun d e." st ic littiti on, isethe ease of the Durham an Sunderland Rahile -4141 rde;ertt leave to present a nse petition for a Bill, t d with." . tl44l)l Z d aevejh t re n sOlu t tlo b n e s agreed to.—Report to lie on ‘b.,, n - 11 e L_ Es i r ,„ Itn.. 'Ai h `" 1 vEV A T THE PRIVAFE BILL OFFICB d ie. -e ' Railw'a • --- r ,---- p e tition, postponed Y ,— .. , ommittee on Idsitittp^Zrilhni°n and Bury St. Edmund's Railway (No. 2), 4ootltibue hiltwinY, June 5. I _6. g and Rawick Railway,—Third reading, Friday, 4 1,„7 1 test f , f , 44:1',. , '''' Railway and Harbour,—Third reading, Friday, no„„_ ai y, "° 6, 't and N orwich R lwa —Third reading, Friday, 0 114 . k' nr 94 1- 41t 4 b I,Bh Railway, —Third reading, Friday, n June 6. il dtlit• r o and R ee l . Railway —Committee o petition, l 'inct 4 ' 41 Prov • cdr, June 6. i Nt s.otide__ and ajekraindeayitatlwan— Report, Thursday, Th 4t dt a rr). IN tWest Riding Junction Railway,—Third G • 4 Y, J li._ turd Ok rine 5 . Thursday, 3 ° S. Junction Railway, —Third reading, d reading, bli k i t i l iii l ll: a il e ia B kineral Railway,—Committee on re-com kit 44 ursday, June 5. • tilVd Drogheda Railway,—Committee on re-com ,Itkii Thurada.......__v_lune 5, at one. 4 4 l!a Y Rills ----"'"'"-- that the parties th,,.,,oti ti ,„ „_ _ (Group (..iti. ),—R9ort, kuk;(14,71;4, tilasgow Junction Bill,Railway___ .. Hutcheson tirtiithiti„4"Ly, that the evidence of Dr. Willi John Car anhiad stated to ItodtUrtric2Ltile Royal Lunatic Asylum), of Mr. —r. ilin'rt ka,._.,tendent of public streets, Glasgow), of il! 4tteotop,"ll (manager of the Dundee and London Ship 4th,t '4l;°`°Y, undee), and of Dr. John Hanna (governor k14t1.7 to e5t.141,4 Aospital), was essential, in order to enable i t heeri`'llab their case before the Committee; and Np„,, e Partijrwed that application had been hoC 4 , With.. , but that their attendance could not be at onpdtrjoli the th ii el l 7' 14 tbe i ntervention of the House, the the House, ads 1e instruct intervention by the Committee to move Ilt74be,ordered to attend the said Committee forth i li t t i li m . Nl t ill t I.4l;Jat Dr. William Hutcheson, physician tht street s 4%-,sylum, Mr. John Carrick, superintendent ofof 11/2 —llad 8, Glasgow, Mr. Robert 41 eorn'reia'tteGeo‘' ti le 11°111 1 et an d London Shipping Company, 1 11 forthwith. ernorofthe Towns Hospital, Du n d d o ee attend a n and th.itSltc,l:-A-uTE DUEL AT GOSPORT. Mr. Seton, ‘4:;--,ort, —IL SZTON. _PORTSMOUTH with Lieut. llttyplite gentleman wounded in the sad a It ri dk l lan the RoYal Marines, has terminated his a earthly Early in the day ti hk ! , keen:4' ll 4 at 35 minutes past seven.career. 1 11. ' 4, „„ . .'ned by his surgical attendants that he was gradually appearance. 11.,,,h144.co,,Zuntiliat his wound exhibited the ver w y a w s o n r o st 94, - iior e . t ?law to Mr. Seton that there d t o a t 1 1 l ' e s e sl o , 1,44%44 levra!th resignation He had some 11 %11 111:41 114._ Irs , and made his will. The sa7r s a p m r e el n voi t uogu h ea a ra d eh id" y ev red to him by the Rev. Mr. M'Ghie . In the after kletl74tratt`ievrdalr he took an affectionate and eternal . farewellof 411 0„ b let an , esviz., his mother, his sisters,. and his wi fe , w hose , For an boil tra,uNardsl ai nlction it was Painful to witness. talked 1a t4 1 1 011 7 . 'efore his decease, he was free from t pain, w a t a nd was with ip, :tiertii,-.l4:B,r_esii,gnedly to hie attendants. had d r been S indefatigable lietil° 442..41_nruents; and Mrs. Set on litt oti 171,"0 a to her husband ever since he had hi hasis wounded at the Quebec Hotel. Mr. gal freqUently talked over the affair with t4 i 1, 4441 t Rilt",Etants, and had to the last persi s s a t d ed that he gave q tt -4 * —vi LeY no real cause for his very violent conduct, Seton Olga said to iunecent of any cause for the duel. He (Mr. i ) sty 4;Zeto have stated that when the parties met on the fi a ? : 1 . Sha n 1 and his second wished to place the men to Ste at second, % Itevies 'stance from each other, to which he and his A of ri ebt exa...°1,./ect.ed, and they finally arranged 15 paces. post ce It° !lulabe'uination of the body took place this day, in i p z res p en t... aiZtZatestewrittrhe medical men of this neighbourh a ood a. — D v r.. James t :eut. d eputy ~.t!..,Jcinkins, Rudle, Rolpb, Slade, . N 4l it i,,, f ro 1 inspector of Haslar Hospital, was the ope. been id . I , k und that a branch of the femoral arte ry . had be ma repot twill be read to the Coroner and jury. ....._ 4111 OILST AFRICA. tlt.„,"tit op C OA . ii ti c op a s 7li OFFICE R AND EIGHT MEN OF THE WASP B as Y TUE oc. 11, 17 1 . in th e L . ° ,7 r. .—A most distressing circumstance has S. litle_inet, t,,_^; lean squadron. The Wasp, 18, t4 t ed. it. 4 prize, which was sent to Sietra Leone kto another I ltst I the y • er Way this prize fell in with and too e of the i ato Neel. ..letitenant in command still keeping charF n 114,the othe r a Mid.hipinan named Harmer, with eight me . I%W:et m it: T y " ... The vessels then separated. Unfortunately, Mr. 11, 4 4 1 . an t t at '' . . l a strong party of the slave crew to remain . out of tt t ,!', k m T!ight they rose and murdered every Engl i shman On V other When dayliight broke, exchanged signals with and after. ` 4 44 fell • n and then bore away. In a day or two k 44,4 00 %4 b ;,... in with the Star, 6, Commander Dunlop, who took k t "gilt the whole f her murderous piratical crew to q t r i Lle, it, LTII4IL eilliana will shortly be sent to England in the eu Co mmander Foote, and the Rapid, 10, Comman. TUE SUN, LONDON, THURSDA MORNINC4, J - UNE 5 1845. and he thought that tliat was the best way of bringing the people of that country back to a sense of their duty as members of an empire of which they formed a part. Nothing for this could be effected except by cormiliiticn, and he should, there fore, vote for the Bill as part of a gi-eat experiment for giving contentment to the people of Ireland, without any danger to the estabii bed institution; of the eountrv. The Earl of II RD WICK E said that he wished to explain himself on a point to his Noble Friend who hail just sat (1, - .wn, which seemed to give him much ai,xiety. The suppesiti n which the Noble Duke entertained that he wished to appro priate the revenues of the Irish Church to the support of the Roman Catholic clergy was erroneous. What he had said was, that if the Roman Catholic Church was to be endowed he did not know where the endowment was to come from, as it could not come out of the Consolidated Fund. He hod further as serted, that if there was, as wa3 asserted, a church without a congregation, without a soul to go into it, nor any probability of there being any, that the endowment of that church might, with safety and wisdom, be taken from the Protestant Church, and applied to the support of the ministers of the Roman Ca tholic faith. He had yet another point to touch upon, and in that case he should give a very short answer to a very long re mark. For his opinions he was solely and entirely responsible. That was the answer to his Noble Fciend. Earl SPENCER sad he wished to say a felt; words on this question, not. because he could so f ar fl a tt er himself that any religion thaethg sovereign of the State was bound to protect and support, and, further, the prerogative of royalty would be annulled by the superintendence and coittrol, which of right belonged to it, being surreneered into the babes of Catholic priests, and finally to a foreign power. He did not believe that the present Bill would establish er promote airy improvement in the social cendition of the country for which it was intended, and the policy that instigated such a measure was, in his opi nion, indefensible and ineffably bad. He would not enter into any discussion on the heavy charges that had been brought against the College of Maynooth. Several Noble Lords, during last night's debate, had borne testimony to the erroneous nature of the doctrines 'disseminated there, and the Noble and Learned Lord who had concluded the debate had confirmed the whole case by his lucid and incontrovertible arguments. During a long series of years no effort had been made to obtain an in creased support for the institution at Maynooth. Nothing had been said during that interval, and the inference to be drawn from the silence would be that it was not necessary to squander so large a sum of the public money in propagating Catholicism, as was contemplated by the present proposed measure. Comm'ssioners had been appointed to investigate generally into the condition of education in Ireland, and they had reported very voluminously as to the present state of the educational regimen at Maynooth. Evidence had been brought before the House, but it would consume a vast deal of time to consider singly the papers in which that evidence was con taioed. It might, perhaps, be an interesting inquiry to make, but in the absence of that evidence he would briefly refer to the statements of a late celebrated Lord Chancellor, who, in his official capacity as one of the visitors of Maynooth, had said that the young men there were brought up in a condition more servile and more degrading than at any college of the Jesuits ; and that it was impossible n to notice the countenances of these young men, whose eyes were continually east down to the ground, and whose whole demeanor showed they were discip lined to submit to the power of despots. Such was the testimony of a most respectable witness as to the condition of things at May riooth, but perhaps the principal question to be considered was, whether the proposed measure would be generally beneficial to the interests of Ireland. All that hail been heard and pub lished of the conspiracies, murders, and outrages of every de scription in Ireland had been the result of misgovernment. The true character of the Irish people was excellent. There were none who were naturally more attached to the sovereign authority or more grateful for benefits received. And, on the contrary, there were no people who possessed so keen a sense of injustice and oppression, and, above all, there existed no people who had a more profound contempt for inconsistency, whether it was of a political tendency or of a relieious nature. Ireland had been for too long a period subjected to be governed by the miserable resort of expediency—(Hear, hear)—and a wretched expedient was now contemplated in the proposed endowment, by making a weak concession to the priests, in order to gain their support in conciliating Ireland. The only true system, which was the Sctiptural education scheme, had been thrown aside as ineffectual and was lest, and tha domination of the priests, which had been tacitly allowed by the late Government. was openly encouraged by the present Administration.—( Hear.) The Bequests Bill had not produced a contrary spirit in the country. They were still true to their Spiritual Lord, the Pope, to whom they had sworn to be faithful; and nothing would induce them to sell their support of that principle on behalf of any other authority. This feeling was borne out by the whole history of Ireland. and it was a feeling which the Government could not but respect. No doubt there was a great difference in the state of Ireland now, compared with what it was before Sir Robert Peel took office, and for what he had done he considered him entitled to the confidence of the country. If, however, he forced the establishment of this institution of Maynooth on the country, it 'could scatter that confidence to tha winds. Before that Right Hon. Baronet took office, Ireland was agitated in a serious manner, but on his accession to office, a state of comparative tranquillity was induced, arising, for the time, from the high constitutional feel ings which were aroused in the country by that event. But that state of tiaequillity did not last long. Under the guidance of the able repeal agitator of that country, the people were brought into a state of unexampled excitement for the repeal of the union. While this was going forward, the Goverrment was looking on with mute astonishment, witnessing the whole population of Ireland brought together to monster meetings, in tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands. The excitement showed the people of that country ready to follow one man wherever he chose to lead them, and then only restrained from acts of bloodshed, and actual rebellion, by that man, who exercised over them such unbounded control. At length the country was filled with troops, and the meeting at Clontarf was put down; then it was to be said to the repeal leaders was due the credit that no collision between the sol diers and the people did take place. In his (Lord Clancarty's) opinion if at first. a vigorous effort had been made by the Go vernment to put down these proceedings it would have been successful, but ;the attempt was made too late. The people had become organised, they had learned to despise the Govern ment, and had active and intelligent leaders to guide them. Then followed the prosecution of the leaders, and that course was a failure—it did not serve the purpose of a vindication of the law of England.—( Hear.) Instead of this, it weakened respect for the law, and caused the people of that country to lose all respect for the judges of Ireland, The Duke of WELLINGTON—My Lords, in debating this subject, I beg leave to submit that the question is a Bill for the establishment of a college at Maynooth. I do not know that the monster meetings, or the conduct of the Government in re gard to those meetings, bears any relation to the question. I submit that the Noble Lord should attend to the question, and not refer to the Government respecting that which might be a proper subject of discussion at another time ; but is not at pre sent. The subject now is Maynooth.—(Hear.) Lord CLANC,A RTY said he did not consider lie was leaving the question by referring to the monster meetings, and could net bow to the opinion of the Noble Duke. He referred to the monster meetings, to show that if no respect had been shown to the law of England, great submission at least had been shown to another authority—that that deference which was not tendered to the Crown, was not withheld from the leaders of the Roman Catholic popula tion. Toough the authority of the Government was so weak in Ireland, the power of the Pope was well known. Their Lordships would recollect that what he referred to was this submission of the people of Ireland to the Pope's rescript, at a time when the law failed to work out a similar submission- After the receipt of that document, a consultation of the bishops of Ireland was held in Dublin, and the result was an agreement to the principle of this endowment to Maynooth. A strong feeling hail been expressed by the Protestants of Ire land that the present Government was unable to govern that country, and he had stated these matters in order that their Lerilships might understand the true bearings of the question. Two years ago, ween a measure was proposed to eduitate the poor factory children in the principles of the Church of Englanit, a feeling was raised against it, arid it was Allan d-ned ; but n w, while the voice of Protestant England and Protestant Scotland w .s unanimously raised against this esi dewment, it was altogether disregarded.—( Hear, hear.) He admitted that hewing measures—measures of improvement — were necessary for Ireland, but they should be such as would tend to social improvement. But of all the measures origi nated within the walls of the English Parliament, that now before their Lordships to endow the College of Maynooth, and to recognise the Papal authority, was the last that should have been expected from an English Parliament, a Protestant Go vernment, and a British Sovereign.—( Hear, hear. ) The Duke of CLEVELAND said he was anxious to occupy a short time in the discussion, not so much to occupy their time in the consideration of the measure before them, as to vindicate his own consistency, inasmuch as he differed on this question with many of those with whom he usually acted. In supporting this Bill, which he conceived it was his duty to do, he was only pursuing that policy he had taken as his guide ever since his entrance into public life. The debate had hitherto been taken on religious grounds. Now he under stood from the Noble Duke who introduced the measure, that it was more of a political than a religious subject. In that view he (the Duke of Cleveland) wished to consider it. He supported the measure for the relief of the Roman Catholics in 18.25, when it was introduced, and supported it up to its being finally carried in 18.9. He had been a regular sup porter of that principle from the time he entered the House of Commons in 1812, until it was brought to a happy termination under the auspices of the Noble Duke (the Duke of Welling ton) arid Mr. Secretary Peel. For 17 years he acted with the Whig party, and supported every measure brought forward by them, with the exception of that of Parliamentary Reform. which he had always opposed. Since then, he had supported the Conservative party. His motto was now, as it had always been, " measures not men. " He could not see that any new principle was involved in this additional grant. It was true that the arguments which had been adduced laid great. stress on this being an annual grant. But if they wsre to take the circumstances wider which the grant was made, the number of years which it had been allowed, he would ask them whether they could suppose that it was ever likely to be withdrawn ? Could they suppose that they could ever retrace their steps? Whatever might he the case, they might advance, but they could never retrograde; to retrograde now was an utter impossibility. He did not think, therefore, that there was anything wrong in giving his consent to this grant, or any real distinction between a grant which was sure to be made annually and one which rendered that grant perma nent. With respect to ulterior measures he would not look at hem at the present moment. There were persons who took a much more comprehensive view of the question than he did, and who conceived that this was only a prelude to other mea sures, He knew not that such would be the case, but he felt that he could only look at the measure before their Lordships as a measure isolated—as one without any consequence. It was in that way that he must consider it. He could not take it in connexion with any measure in the back ground. If it were so connected, and if were so put forward as a feeler to ascer tain the state of public opinion, and with a view to introduce measures of an ulterior consequence, though of a similar kind, it was a most complete failure. if they at all doubted that, let them look to the petitions which daily crowded their table. Those petitions were countless, and emanated not from any dis tant or obscure corner of the country, but they had poured in by thousands from every district, and from every town, from 11-achy Head to John o' Groats. They might disregard public opinion now, as in some instances it had been disregarded, but they might carry the principle too far, they might push it to an extent which was not quite safe, and, in this instance, it had been expressed with too much loudness and fervour not to be heard. In the advocacy of this measure, however, he had heard some sentiments expressed which he knew not how to comprehend. When he first heard those opinions stated he knew not rightly how to believe his senses. They had been expressed by a Noble Lord a member of the Government, and who held a position in her Majesty's household. He knew not whether that Noble Lord (the Earl of Hardwicke) had held any conference with the chief officers of the Government, but it did seem strange that that Noble Lord had stated that if the Roman Catholic Church was to be endowed the endowment should not come from the consolidated fund, but from the resources of the Protestant Church in Ireland. Ile (the Duke of Cleveland) knew not that such a project was in contemplation, but if it were so he trusted he should never live to see it. It was not for him to solve the difficulty, but it did seem extraordinary that one whom he had always looked upon as a Conservative, who was a Member of her Maje ty's Household, who had been appointed a Lord of the Bedchamber by the Government, and who might be supposed to know what the intentions of the Government were, should have held such opinions. There might have been a change in the views of the Cabinet, and of the policy which they intended to pursue, but when he recollected the speeches of the Noble Lord, formerly the Secretary for Ireland, and who was ROW Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), as well as those of Sir Robert Peel and others, to which he had listened with so much delight in the House of Commons, he was led to believe that they would speak in the same way in which they intended to vote. Had the Noble Lord forgotten that it was for this very reason that Sir Robert Peel had re signed in 1835, and that for a similar reason Lord Stanley had left Lord Grey's Government? He had thought it his duty thus to express his sentiments, and he had done sn with con siderable anxiety, and repeated he saw nothing in this Bill to which he could not completely assent. He should therefore vote for it, though he was aware that in so doing he should be opposing the opinions of a great portion of the people of this country. Another course remained for him, He need not vote at all, but that was a course which he had never pursued in any debate, and it was one of the ehebbiest expedients that could possibly be adopted. It was ntithing else than publishing to the world that a inan was not compe tent to form an opinion at all upon the subject. This was a measure which in some degree intimated the policy which they intended to pursue towards Ireland. They had many grievances to be remedied, and these remedies could only be eta- tained through the means of conciliation or by the power of the sword. Whatever might be atti mpted, the sword of the State roust ultimately prevail in any contest which might arise, however dreadful that contest might be. He was, therefore, glad that a policy of conciliation was affected towards Ireland ; ' teetante, that made them so ? He would not follow the speech of the Noble Earl who had just sat down, and point out how the Roman Cathohee of Ireland had been treated by the Pro testants of England. They had h and it sail that the Ro s ea u Catholic rel.gion was patronised and upheld in Canada be cause it was a ceuqueretl country. teot Ireland was also conquered by Henry the Second, and it had been treated as a conquered province from that time to this. Could they, then, he surprised, after knowing how they had been treated, that they should look at our religion, beautiful and mild as it is, through the glass of party, with suspicion and distrust. An other argument had been touched on by the Noble Lord who had just sat down, namely, their unchangeebleness Most tree, their principles were unchangeable. They were un changed. But in practice they were most ductile, and they would change yet more and more, as fellow-subjects and fellow-Christians. He would appeal to what he hid himself seen in the Grand Duchy of Baden. There were numbers col lected of Church of England members in the episcopal town of the duchy, and what did the Roman Catholic Bishop do? Did be crush the Lutherans and persecute the Church of England mert? No. He sent for one of the Church rectors of the town, and said " There are a number of Lutherans who have no place in which to perform their religious rites. There are a number of Church of England members who have no church to meet in, I command you, therefore—(their Lordships would observe that it was not a request, but a command)—that the rector should open his church, and that in the morning the Roman Llathoec fre m of worship should be performed a little earlier. The Lutherans then to hate it for their own peculiar worship, and the church again to be open twice a day, morning and evening, for the members of the Church of England." lie did not say that the same could be done in this country, but at the same time he thought they might cultivate a closer friend ship with the Rom m Catholics, by approximating to a similar liberality. It had been said, and :said must truly, that the Roman Cathode priesthood educated at alaynooth were so ig norant that they were not fit to be associated with clergymen of other persuasions. They were now about to try a great ex periment for their benefit, and he would ask should they allow things to remain in their present stagnant position? Was it nothing that they could by such measures as this advance the progress of education and produce a better understanding be tween the two countries? He should only trespass on the attention of the House on one other point. Let them suppose that in Ireland things were re versed, that affairs were altered, and that instead of six and a half millions of Roman Catholics, and not quite a million of the supporters of the Church of England, anti other Protestants—not in all a million and a half? Supposing that they had a Roman Catholic Government, and that that Go vernment had in a moment of kindness and benevolence, prof fered such a measure, and that the six and a half million of Roman Catholics had opposed it. What should they, the Pro testants, have said then ? Why they would have denounced them most properly as bigoted and intolerant. He (the Bishop of Norwich) would have headed the cry, and denouncil the Roman Catholics in the strongest language. Why then should Protestants denounce a Bill, which if they had been in the place of the Roman Catholics they would have hailed as a measure of the noblest Christianity. He would trespass on their Lordships' time no longer. It was his intention to vote for this measure, because be considered it a religious question, inasmuch as it was associated with justice and benevolence and love. He would vote for it, because he considered it a Christian measure, inasmuch as it partook of, and put in practice that n ble and permanent feature of the Saviour's Gospel—" do unto othees as ye would that they should do unto you." He should vote for it as an experiment in the right direction— ( (heers)—as an experiment in favour of education, and education under any form must elicit truth, and as truth was elicited—and here he hoped Noble Lords of the Roman Catholic faith would not think that be spoke harshly—he spoke as a Protestant Bishop, and he said that as education advanced truth was elicited; and he trusted that in the very same proportion as truth was elicited, the Roman Catholic persuasion would be erased from the minds and hearts of the Irish people. It would then be found that this measure, which was now so much denounced, would be in an aftertime, anti by a future generation, esteemed one of the most wise, most beneficial, and most useful passed in the 19th century.— (Cheers. ) He rejoiced to find that her Majesty's Government had brought this measure forward, and he only regretted that when Noble Lords on the opposite side of the House were pre pared to bring forth a measure similar in character, they did not receive that support from the Members of the present Go vernment which they so truly deserved. But he said he re joiced, and he d d so sincerely, that past differences were for gotten, and that both parties came now forward in a body to support the Government; and he would also give them his cordial and hearty support in this measure of justice to the Ro man Catholics of Ireland.—( Cheers. ) The Ea'l of 'MO RNIN GTOS said that he was aware that many Noble Lords of greater ability than himself were anxious to address the House ; but he could not allow the measure to pass without making one or two observations upon the subject. The reasons which had actuated the illustrious William Pitt in the foundation of this institution, had been a desire to educate the Irish priesthood at home, in order that they might escape the demoralising influence which a residence in France would occasion. He would, with the permission of their Lordships, quote some evidence taken before that House at the period when that Minister—the greatest England had ever known—was about to found the College. The Noble Lord then quoted evi dence taken before the Hs use relative to the power of the Pope to absolve subjects from the allegiance due to their sovereigns, and the degree of civil authority which it was as sumed he had the right of exercising in this country. The Act of 1829 had given emancipation, and though it had not carried out to its legitimate extent the spirit of justice and restitution, was that a reason why the Legislature should now hesitate to complete it ? When it war said that oppor tunities for education should not be accorded the Roman Ca tholics, it was tacitly declaring that members of that cemmn nion were not fit to be entrusted with political power; for a more extended and liberal education was but the earnest and forerunner, if not the essential principle of political influence. If the system of teaching adopted at Maynooth be bad, by giving the students the means of getting superior, they would be the first to seek sounder education for themselves.— ( Hear, hear.) The Catholic religion, when impressed on ignorant minds, was pernicious, but when instilled on educated and erudite minds it was sublime in principle and beneficial in its effects, and that man of the Anglican Church who could not entertain respect for tenets of the Gallic—not the ultra-mnntaine or jesuitical—Church, was not lihe-al or wise. A mistake had been made by his Noble rela tive, and other Lords who had adopted the s .me course of areument, in asserting that the Roman Catholic religion was imbued with principles dangerous to the Constitution, and sub versive of civil liberty. Such might have been originally the tendency of those tenets; but was it fair, was it true, to assert that their consequences were still so fatal ?—(llear, hear.) That argument, however, had been plausibly supported by an appeal to the nature of the concordats of the Pope. But what influence or authority had in reality those concordats? Lord CLANC.e TY—Norte at all.—( Hear, hear. ) The Earl of MORNINGTON—I thank the Noble Lord for that reply; it is the very one I desired. It establishes my position, and, as the lawyers say, puts the Noble Earl out of the record.—( Loud laughter.) The Noble Lord, in continuation, observed, that the Papal concord its were founded on the principle of the peace of Europe, as settled in the year 1649, and ratified susequently in 1815. Veit the authority of the Pope was now virtually a nullity. He could not translate Bishops, and his power over the minds of the priests was less than the Archbishop of Canterbury pos sessed over the English Church, independent of the Crown. The Pope had objected last year to the agitation for repeal in Ireland. He bad expressed his approval of the Bequests Act, but his opinion was disregarded, and even his authority received a check. In Germany, however conflicting the reli gious tenets of the people, Lutheran, Calvinist, and Catholic laved together in harmony and brotherly love; and that, not because they compromised their principles, but that they tolerated other and dissenting creeds. Let such a creditable course of u.iity and charity be adopted between the Roman and Anglican Churches in this kingdom, and let the spirit which pervaded and dictated the present measure be car ried to its fullest extent, and the consequence would be the suppression of error, the promotion of religion, th e h a ppi ness o f the people, and the glory of the United Kingdom.—( Hear.) Lord COLCHESTER, feeling as he did the strongest ob jection to the Bill, and intoning therefore to give it his de cided opposition, wished to offer a few remarks, if perchance they might induce that House to The before it sa nc ti one d a measure so fraught with evil. .The feeling that di c t a t e d t h e petitions against the Bill, emanating not only from Dissenters, though he remembered the time when the opinions of Dissen ters were respected by the Noble Lords opposite, but from the United Assembly of the Church of Scotland, from the great body, both lay and clerical, of the Church of England, from the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge— Lord BROUGHAM—No, no. No petitions have been pre sented from either of those Universities. thing which fell from him was at all likely to influence their Lordships, or that he could adduce anything new upon the subject on this the third night of the debate, which he trusted would be the last. —( Hear, hear.) He thought that her Ma jesty's Government. was entitled to high credit for the line they had talon, and he thought that those who had taken any part in the promotion ef this measure, as was the case with the friends with whom he had acted all the days of his live, should share in the obloquy and clamour which had been raised throughout the country. With respect to ta e speech of the Noble Duke, in which he made an attack on the Noble Earl op posite, he night remind the House that the very same imputa tions had been thrown out on the passing of the Catholic Eman cipation measure he thought that it was one of the very Bill ; arid with regard to this being an isolated best futures of the measure that it was not an i so l ate d Bill, b u t was the pre cursor of other measures whi c h w ou ld b e o f esse ntial service to the country. On prin:ipl e h e was s i ncere ly a ttached to a Church establishment. He thought that it was one of the highest duties of the State to provide for the temporal and spiritual interests of the people, but it was a still higher duty to provide for the spiritual in•erests of those under their care, and for this reasan he should always support the Church establishment of the c tuntry. The Right Rev. Prelates who spoke againat the Bill g ave no reason for their opposition to it , but those Prelat e s wh o came from Ireland did give a reason. They stated that the Church of Rome was an antagonist Church, and yet the laity of our own Church and the clergy also, but certainly a great majority of the clergy, believed that there was some secret value in their ordi nation, some peculiar value in the authority which they derived from their apostolic succession, and yet this virtue was derived through the Roman Catholic clergy, in some of the worst and most corrupted agaTa of that church. There was, it was true, some difference of opinion between the two churches. But was the Roman Catholic church to be called an antago nist church? He was personally opposed to that . church, be csuse he believed that nothing ought to be held as true which could not be proved by, or inferred from, the Holy Scriptures, and the Roman Catholic church derived part of her faith from other sources. But they believed in the same Saviour—they inculcated the same morality, and were equally energetic and successful with any Protestant in giving religious instruction to the whole of the people. He did not see anything, then, to prevent hi.n from giving his assent to this Bili ; anti the more so, as there was in the Catholic faith nothing that was con trary to religion. And if the objectors to the measure would only look around they would see that, as the Noble Earl had stated, there was no country in Europe in which the Roman Catholic subjects, whether they lived under Protestant or Roman Catholic sovereigns, were not loyal and orderly in their deportment. But it had been said that the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church were the same they were in ,the days of error and persecution.—( Hear.) But was that the case ? No one could say that it was.—(Hear.) He would ask if Noble Lords who made use of the statement that the Catholic religion had changed. believed it ? He must use serious words in what he stated—the Roman Catholic reli gion had never changed, because those who were members of that religion iotsrpreted some portions t f Scripture as placing it under the tiirect influence of the Holy Spirit. let. if it had changed it was but human. Let them look at the course of the Roman Catholic religion. In ancient times crimes ef the most violent nature were perpetrated by those professing that faith, while, for upwards of a century, such occurrences had not taken place. There was another objection which would be of more importance if it were applicable to the case. Quota tions were made to the effect that the dissatisfaction and discontent existing among the Catholics of Ire land were caused by the Roman Catholic College of Maynooth, and in order to prove these quotations, a Noble Duke went through a catalogue of the assizes to show the connexion between the doctrines taught to youth and the crimes set forth in it. How had England treated the popula tion of Ireland ? They began by exterminating them—they degraded them by penal laws, anti therefore made them bad subjects. Ireland could not endure the penal code which was in Once—they resisted it, and it was modified. They asked b t t e h rro a ok t eo c o nt h u oe n f tryr , pr o mi s e n; ta w h i ch c t e t i r tt r yh i et years.t y d m b a y d e t h it t a e ot i their raeosi them, i s t a ea n n e , as a performed e 3 ru a t h o e e y : the people of I r el an d to ass i s t them i n carry i ng the i r un i on w i th w and the Catholic Emancipation Bill was carried—not on the ground on which they all stated they were actuated in supporting it (Hear)—not on the grounas of justice or truth ( Hear) (because they had no right to deprive people who differed with them in religion of certain rights) but because they could not resist it any longer.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped that the measure 1 efore their Lordships would not be an isolated one, and if they pursued the policy they had commenced they would not only confirm their union with Ireland, but render that country, by a steady system of impartiality anti concession, the strongest instead c f the weakest part of the empire.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl who moved the arneridme: t (Earl Roden) said that the Protestant religion had not had fair play. He ( Earl Spencer) most en tirely agreed with the Noble Earl. He thought Protestantism had not had fair play, for when they had irritate I the great body of the Roman Catholics, and hail broken the promises which they had made to them, and when they were under the influence of penal laws, they presented them will the Pro testant religion. No.hing could be mote unwise or mote likely to engender a feeling of hostility to the Protestant religion, and to prevent it from having fair play. Presbyterian Scot land was in a constant state of anarchy and contusion until they gave her the Presbyterian form of Clurch Government, when prosperity and peace followed.—( Hear, hear ) Ireland was in this state of confusion. and the only way was to adopt a similar policy towards Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) As a first step in that direction, he should give the measure his best support. Several Noble Lords rose, but after some conversation they gave way to The Bishop of NOR WICII,who said he was anxious to state to their Lordships why he intended to give his vote sincerely to the measure before the House. He was going to make an apology for rising to address their Lordships, but he did not think it was necessary. No apology was necessary from a man who gave his:, opinions honestly. But he thought that , from the situation in which he was placed, h e oug ht t o gi ve some explanation why he cho se t o g i ve h i s vo t e in favou r of the measure. He did so because they could be little aware of the obloquy which every individual, more especially those of his profession, was exposed who dared to come forward in a ease of toleration and of mercy towards those who differed from them. He heard from a Noble Lord some harsh expressions towards those ecclesiastics who were about to vote in favour of the measure. He insinuat e d that they were like faithless shepherds abandoning their flecks. That was like_other lan. guage wnich he had heard. H e was shown a pamphlet last week, which was written, he was sorry to say, by a clergyman of the Church of England, and addressed to those Bishops who were prepared to vote in favour of the grant to Maynooth, and in which they were accused of language was used, w would not insult falsehood. Stronger which he their Lordships by r e p eat i ng. It accused them of being heretics, and i n fid e l s , an d as anti• Christian, and that they were a, ()states from their holy religion. A Right Hon. :Baronet in another pl ace was called by another Rev. Orat trusted, for the honour of the Church of England, that he was a Dissenter—lie was denounced before a large audience that he was an anti-Christ. He (the Bishop of Norwich) was Pr o testant in his feelings gether—nay, more, he had reason to believe th ee h e was o pposed to the opinions. part and limed, of the Romish creed, which opinions were upheld and supported by many who had signed anti-slay nooth petitions. Ile d ec l are d that he was averse to Popery in whatever form or shape it appeared—he was especially averse to that Popery which entered into Protestant denominations. he was everse to it in every shape or way. Every denomina tion was anxious to cull for itself a maximum of toleration, and to give others a miiiiinum. He wouid say a few words with respect to the petitions pr esente d t o the House. 'I hat they had been numerous bey on d a ll prece dent he would not deny , but that they represented t h e f ee lings of the people of Eng land, he was inclined fr o m c l ose i n vestigation rather to deny. He had taken some pains to analyse those petitions, and he was prepared to say that they were not the resislt of a spon taneous feeling, but were couched in the same language, and in the same words, and were issued from an office in London, and disseminated in various parts t f the country, for the purpose of being signed, and for the purpose of collecting subscriptions. He knew a town with a population of 9,0110 persons, from which ten petitions had emanate d. They were ' scattered over the town, and in every ward, and the nu mber of signatures was only 220. With respect to the membe rs o f his own profession, he believed that a ver y lar g e p ro p orti on were in favour of the measure. Of eleven pamphlets which he had seen on the subject, three were written by clergymen agaii:st it, and three by laymen in favour of i t . He thought if their eordships had taken the same pains to analyse the petitions as he had, they would have correberated the testimony he had given. He was ready to allow that the Dissenters bail sent petitions, but they were opposed . to the grant on the ground that they were opposed to all endowments. He would read a ciicular addressed to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, which was adopted at a meeting of Dissenters held in London in the course of last month. The Right Rev. Prelate then read portions of the circular which s ympathised with the griev ances of the Catholics of Ire land, a nd specified them as most unjust g li nt , Church in Ireland, anti that they,would use their utmost exertions t o remove t he grievances under which on them used to t t ig e pr A es n stve, and attributed th e gr i evances i n fli cte d oi they laboured. The Earl of WINCHILSEA asked from what body of Dis senters the address emanated. The Bishop of IN ORWICH said it emanated from a confe rence of Protestant Dissenters, held in Crosby-hall, London. The petitions to which he had alluded did not enter into a coin bat wi , h large principle s, but details. But it was their duty to banish erroneous doct rines, and to combat error wherever duty—it was th e d u ty o f every man, to do hi s b es t to com b at any error which counteracted the reli g i on of the Gospel —every man, more or less, ough t not t o countenance error. He nn o te m y a f t u t u e n r d w i h t a ; t it s, w at a i s or t i h h e e ir filied, believed, therefore, that the Church of England was the best in Christendom—that it centained better elements than any oiher church, and at the same time he must say that the church, free as it was, was altogether destitute of error.— ( Hear, hear.) Yet he could see in its elements an oscillation —a fearful oscillation—from Calvinism on the one side to the gates of Popery on the other.—(Hear, hear.) There were errors in all human affairs, and it was their duty to contribute to remove them by the best means in their power. The con duct of England towards Roman Catholic Ireland was unpa ralleled in the h'story of any denominations —they I ad been treated with asperity', and their doctrines had been opposed by intolerance and unchristian conduct. And how had they suc ceeded? They had altogether failed in accomplishing what they intended. The Roman Catholic population of Ireland was 6,500,000. There were 1 ,560,000 of Protestants, of which not more than one-half were members of the Established Church. Ten years ago, before the Ecclesiastical Commis. sioners Falb , ivAed the ditieese of Norwich into different see., one Bishop, for 3 . 0001 . to steioo/. a year, had a greater numb. - r o f petsons un d er his spiritual care flew the whole eighteen Pr,testat.t Bishops of Ireland. There right be consolidated units in Ireland, but that argu ment equally well applied to his teen diocese; and when they spoke of untoes and c onsolidations. he . thought that the hiss they sail ue oo the subject the better. ut again they were a n swered that the Roma n Cotics of I eland were worse than any Roman Catholics on th ath e face of the earth—more un table. They might be so. But, he manageable, more intra c would ask, why were the y so? He would (no matter what for the his own opiniensovere). s ake of argument, admit that A allow that ey were ore unmanage t ley were so ; he would but was it th not they more unmanage able, more intractable; but was it not theythey, the Pro able, more Lord COLCHESTER believed that petitions had been laid on the table of the other House from influential individuals, if not from the Corporations of both Universities. Lord BROUGHAM again dissented. Lor t COLCfI ES rEtt would not argue that question, but the feeling that dictated su c h un i versa l protests against' the measure, would not die ; *hatter the Bill was carried or not, the spirit of the country would still rema i n as d ec i ded and un compromisingly against it. As t o th e contract originally urged as entered into at the Union, he could discern no such understanding whatever. Mr. Grattan, indeed, in his address upon that occasion, had alluded to a compact fur educating the Irish people, but nothing was mentioned either directly or re motely of a permanent endowment of the College of Maynooth. The principle then recognised was that an institution should be endowed by the co un t r y an d f rom t h e f un d 3 o f c h ar i ta bl e parties, but it comprehended no such system as State endowment, whether temporary or permanent.—( Hear. ) It appeared to him, therefore, that the grant was only an an nual one, in aid of private contributions, and was not intended to be permanent. If it were intended to be permanent, why should the Government think it necessary to limit the grant to twenty years ? lie did not think that the College of May nonth had any especial or particular claims to the favour of Parliament. He read extracts from the books taught in May nooth to show that the system of education, and the discipline adopted in that college, were such as a Protestant Government ought not to encourage, and much less ought to endow. He did nut think that the effect of the proposed grant would be any more than to give an increased salary to the professors, without at all improving the education of the pupils. With every consideration which he had been able to give the subject, he came to the conclusion that the measure would give as much dissatisfaction in England as it would tend to encourage disaf fection in Ireland. He wished for the fullest toleration to the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland. He was in favour of the Bills for the institution of colleges in Ireland for the better education of young men preparatory to their ecclesiastical in duction to the priesthood. He assured the House that It was with no hostility to the Roman Catholic portion of his fellow subjects be felt bound to oppose this Bill. Lord MON TEA GLE said that he rejoiced in the expression of opinion which this discussion had elicited. He rejoiced that all parties in both Houses had shown on the part of the United Parliament that there was no occasion for the severance of the empire, and that there sac a sincere desire upon the part of Whigs and 'Fori.as, English, Irish, and Scot ch—( Cheers)—to do every justice to the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.) Not withstanding what they had heard on that subject he should state what he considered the peculiar importance of the He thought that it was the most important measure that had been presented to Parliament, he would almost say, since the union—but he •should say unquestionably since the relief Bill. la its practical effect on it the popula tion of Ireland he thought that ought to be considered more important. If their Lordships looked back to the history of Ireland, disfigured as it was, confused as it may be, by perpetual civil commotions, they would find that all their contentious during latter years had resolved itself into one great severance—not a severance of nations, but a se verance of religion, which unfortunately had placed the Pro testants on one side of the supposed line, and the Catholics at the other. When his Noble Friend had stated that the Protestant Church was not a persecuting church, he cheered the statement because he believed that it was the most tolerant church that existed. So far as h" could judge, the wisest and most enlightened men were in the Church of England. He thought that the governing party in Ireland was intolerant, with a degree of astute wickedness which the annals of the world had never surpassed. They persecuted the priests of the Irish, and they persecuted their religion. The legislature of King William in Ira land was the commencement of 'A legis lation of injustice, and a violation of faith. What did they do with respect to education? In the height of their baseness they made it criminal on the part of a Roman Catholic to get education at home, and they made it criminal if they went in quest of it abroad.— ( Hear, hear.) They had been active instruments in carrying out their own wicked legis lation. But he thought that those days were gone by, and he IMPERIAL. PARLIAMEI4I I . HOUSE OF LOR OS, June 4. Their Lordships met at Five o'clock. Petitions were presented against the grant to Ma,nooth by the Marquis of Downshire, Lord Hatherton, Lord - Clancarty, the Bishop of St. David's, Lord Hill, Lord Ken} on, and the Bishop of Gloucester. The Earl or FI'l•Z WILLIAM presented a petition from Lord Harborough complaining, of some of the clauses of the Syston and Peterborough Railway, which provided that the railway should pass through his park. Lord BROUGHAM_ agreed that the hardship upon the _ . 'oble Earl who complained amounted almost to a fraud. After an observation from a Noble Lord, Lord BROUGHAM said, that as a general rule that was all •ry well, tut there might be particular cases of outrage on private property which might snerit particular notice. MAYNOOTH. The Bishop of NORWICH presented several petitions from congregations of Dissenters in his diocese in favor of the grant. THE BISHOP OF CASHEL'S CHARGE. The Bishop of CASHEL wished to say a few words respecting the observations made last night in their Lordships' Houle by a Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Normanby) upon a charge which he had delivered at Lismore. He had thought at the time that what he was represented to have sail could form no part of his charge, and now he was able to give it a most positive contradietioe. He had succeeded in getting two copiei of that charge in London instead of, as he feared, being obliged to send to Ireland for them. One he had placed in the hands of the Noble Duke behind him and the other he begged to lay on the table of the House. He could say that the pass,)ge which had been read was not only not a perversion of his charge, but that it was a complete and entire fabrication. As he intended to re-publish that charge, he should wish to have a copy of what was said to be his charge, in order to give it with the charge itself, and his own defence. He hoped the Noble Marquis would have no objection to state on what authority he had made the accusation ; for in these stormy times, when no man's character was safe, it was some protection to know from what quarter he was assailed. The Marquis of NORNIANBY regretted that he had not received, according to the Right Reverend Prelate's pro mise, an authenticated copy of the charge. But he had no objection to state that the report, from which he last night read an extract, was furnished to him by Dr. Fogarty, the vicar-general and parish priest of Lismore—a man of the highest character in the Roman Catholic priesthood. He believed there was no person who knew Dr. Fogarty but would speak in the highest terms of his moral character. He thought that it was due to the Right Reverend Prelate to give him the earliest opportunity of contradicting that letter, and when he perused it he would see that Dr. Fogarty had endeavoured to procure a copy of the charge but was unable to do so. It had been generally reported that the Right Reverend Prelate had given utterance to such pernicious doctrines as exclusive intercourse, and he considered it much to be regretted, and was a great loss that the Right Reverend Prelate had not given an extensive circulation to the charge which he had really de livered, and which he now laid on the table of the House. He felt it unnecessary to say more. Hi was sure their Lordships would acquit him of any intention to affix any unjust stigma upon the character of the Righ• Rev. Prelate. He would ask him, however, was the charge which he delivered an extem pore charge ? The Bishop of CASHEL—It was not an extempore charge; it was a written charge, and the copy on their Lordships' table was printed from that written charge. The Marquis of NORMANBY—The reason why he asked the question was, that he might set the matter for ever at rest. When he had asked the Right Rev. Prelate last evening whe ther the charge he delivered was the same as the printed one published afterwards, he had said that it was so as nearly as possible. The Duke of WELLINGTON observed that the Right Rev. Prelate having done him the honour of putting the charge into his hands a teas hours ago, he considered it his duty to affirm that it did not contain one word on the point al luded to by the Noble Marquis opposite. It was a regular ecclesiastical charge, such as a person in the situation of the Right Reverend Prelate ought to have delivered. There was not one word of . unkindness, nor one word calculated to wound the feelings of any man, of any belief whatever. No one could read it without satisfaction, nor without entertaining respect for the person who compesed it. For himself, he could only say that he had derived great and sincere pleasure from its perusal. Lord CAMPBELL, notwithstanding the denial of the Rev. Prelate, the qualification of the Noble Marquis, and the testi mony of the Noble Duke, must say, that on casting his eye over the document in dispute, he could not wonder at the mistake. The Right Rev. Prelate had adopted the language of another eminent divine, who had styled Popery as the master-piece of Satan. With such a strong and unequivocal expression he did not wonder that the charge had met with the interpretation so naturally put upon it, yet so loudly complained of. The Bishop of CASHEL—I said that some one had so said. —( Hear, hear.) Whatever I said was against Tractarianism of the present day. SMALL DEBTS' BILL. The Earl of HARD WICKE presented a petition in favour of the Bill for the better security of small debts. MAYNOOTH. Earl RODEN presented petitions from various parts of Wales against the grant to Maynooth. Lord CH ARLEVILLE presented petitions from Helstone, in Cornwall, against the grant. Lord DENMAN presented a petition to the same effect. Lord BROUGHAM presented a similar petition. ADJOURNED DEBATE. The Earl of CLANCA RTY, in resuming the adjourned, debate, said he thought it was a sufficient apology for his hav ing moved the adjournment, that only two in dividuals were suffered on the preceding evening to address the House in support of the amendment moved by his Noble Friend ; but, independently of this fact, not one single Irish Member had yet had an opportunity of ad dressing their Lordships. He thought the admissions made by the Noble bird who closed the debate last night, on the subject of the Roman Catholic Church, were strictly in favour of the amendment, and the Noble Lord was acting rather incensisti-ntly in opposing it. It would be a consideration fcr her Majesty's Ministers how. far they intended to carry out the principle of the proposed Bill.—( Hear.) The Noble Earl had asked if there were 151 benefices without a single Protestant in them. It appeared there were 10 with no Protestants in them, and 42 with 10 or less. In 24 there was no provision for them at all. He spoke of the saving truths of the Roman Cathode Church, and he spoke of its approximatien to the Presbyterian Church. He (Lord Clancarty) could not agree with the Noble Earl in the explanation he had given of the proposed Bill. He thought. the Scottish Church was a pure church, and were he in Scot land, he would willinglingly go and worship with the pro fessors of the Presbyterian faith ; but if, on the contrary, he were in a Roman Catholic country. he should feel that he o ‘ could not conscientiously bow the knee before an image, m e a l f r I who followed in i prayer on yesterday'sN. irgi n . ( debate,H ear. N r rith the address Noblehe .would most cordially agree with his sound and • Protestan• feeling. In every sentiment that had fallen from him, with the exception of his observations on the Act of 1829 be would cheerfully coincide. He saw nothing in the emancipa tion of the Roman Catholics that could argue danger to the Protestant Church. It had not been argued that the Roman Catholics in Parliament supported any measure in opposition to the interest of the Established Church. They took oaths to bind them in respect to the interest of the Church, and they observed them with the strictest regard. He could say that many of his tried and most consistent friends in Ireland were Roman Catholics, and he always found them most desirous of acting for the general good of the country. He mixed with them at meetings of the boards of guardians and elsewhere, and he invariably found them anxious to do everything in their power to forward the interests of Ireland. He would say a few words in reference to what fell from the Noble Marquis on the other side of the House, who spoke last night. That Noble Marquis had brought a charge against a Right Hoa. Prelate ; but it was a great relief to hes (Lord Clancarty ) that the reply of that Right Rev. Prelate had been most satisfac tory. The Noble Marquis had withdrawn his charge, but he k Lord Clancarty) would have been better satisfied if he had done it in a more unreserved manner, and if he had given the Right Rev. Prelate notice of the charge he intended to bring forward. There was a great distinction to be drawn be• tweet, the course which the Noble Duke had adopted towards the Right Rev. Prelate, and the course taken by the Noble and Learned Lord opposite, in reading the garbled extracts which he had done. Though he could not look upon the Go vernment of the Noble Marquis with so much respect as he de sired to show, yet he felt deeply obliged to him for his admi rable Church appointments, as was evident in the app intment of Dr. Ponsonby. He would now allude to what had fallen from the Most Rev. Prelate the Archbishop of Dublin. He said that there appeared to be no distinction between favour and endowment, and persecution and intole rance. By the solemn promise which he had given he had engaged to drive away all error, and sooner than break his faith with this promise, he would resign his sacred profession and retire to a humble sphere. The real question was, whe ther the Roman Catholic was to be encouraged and made a friend of, or whether he was to be regarde i as an enemy ? There could be no denial of the claims of the Roman Catholic people of Ireland to the consideration of her Majesty's Go. vernment. But he did not think that the Government was under any obligation to uphold what the Noble Lord opposite ( Lord Beaumont) called the" immutability" of Roman Catholic doctrine. His Noble Friend, he thought, had made a sufficient ease to justify an inquiry orexamination into the tenetstaught at Maynooth, and what bad fallen from a Noble Earl (Lord Hardw lac) with reference to Dr. Eaton only showed the necessity for the amendment of his Noble Friend receiving the utmost consideration of the House. He certainly could not possibly agree to this measure, because it was in direct opposition to the oath he had made on first taking his seat amongst their Lord ships. He had sworn to sanction no measure which should give power to any foreign Prince, anti yet he was now called upon to sanction an institution under the authority of the head of the Roman Catholic Church. There was a very strong feeling abroad on this question, for it was supposed out of doors that the Members of that House were bound by something more than their oaths. He, for one, would say he always held that the Members of the Legislature were bound by cer tain principles of legislation by which they . were bound not to recognise the papal authority in any way in this realm. He had no doubt that their Lordships attached paramount im portance to their oath of allegiance, and it was because he knew that fact he had deemed it his du'y to call their attention to this particular point. He would not trespass much further on their Lordships' attention , but he did ho p e that before their Lordships should make any hasty legislation on this important subject, they would consider well the points to which he had called the attention of their Lordships. He would never con sent to establish such a college for the educatien of Roman Catholics, as it would be interfering with her Majesty's right of supremacy over the ecclesiastical seminaries within the kingdom, and, in that respect, would be highly unconstitutional. Great stress had been laid on the fact that the religion of Maynooth had received the sanction and support of successive Governments. It was said that Mr. Pitt had founded May nooth, and that Mr. Percival had subsequently supported it. For his own part he could not justify an act that was in itself un justifiable, and in his o p inion no act could be justified otherwise than on its own intrinsic merits. It was an Act for the endow ment of a college for the education of Roman Catholics, and at the time it was co nsidered objectionable that Roman Ca tholics should be obliged to resort to Chef Continent for their education, when they m i g ht, b y that advantage nearer an c Parliam . ent, obtain home, and in that respect it was con sidered a fair enactment ; and in 1795, and the three follow ing years, money was awarded for the purpose of establishing acollege, but it was kept under the power and control of the State. The Noble Earl had referred to the Charitable Bequest Act of last session, and he had some foundation for his objections, for it conferred upon Maynooth a corporate character for enjoying the endowments bestowed upon it, and on that principle was recognised the Roman Catholic church in Ireland, as subject only to the Pope's domination and con trol ; but that Act did not so positively acknowledge the Ro man Catholic church as the present proposed Act did. He would put it to the Noble Lord chether the present measure was not calculated to encourage the Roman Catholic religion ? He would contend that no expediency could justify this mea sure for religious education in Ireland. If it was intended that such an Act should pass, let the oath of supremacy be at once abolished, and then might the policy now proposed by her Majesty's Ministers be proceeded with. He felt it his duty to give his support to the motion of the Noble Earl in the inquiries he had suggested should be made, and it would become Noble Lords to consider well before they gave their assent to the Bill before them. The principles of the Bill were to teach doctrines that were damnable to their recipients, and highly objectionable to the country, and which were opposed to the wished that their Lordships wou!d not imagine that he referred was a rush forward made by the people, argil he (Lo !on e N to those matters for the purpose of making any exaggeration or eagle) would say, that he knew not what peopl ' creat'lig excitement. He used those a-guinents in favour of coun , ry would no: have done the sme under the , e vi . eonnA., . - - 7. - - ..' -- the present Bill, and to show that the close of the Legislature stances.—( Hear, hear.) This art of tho e mi. i arieslputtir—,.....-- ,,, -7.-)., was, ,hat they created a separation between themselves and the what ~.ine Noble Lords iniAt call indiscreet ; it CE.tir i t. , ._,-!;,:•.„ \--, great majority of the people of Ireland—between themselves Mont, ~gie) ;you'd call it a most inv. erant ac t 4 e ,felettereer e neee i . e e , ( ..., ..... e s and their rclig'ous instructors, and between themselves and upon that occasion tile Roman Catholic priests hr - iffr2wcbf . .-, ~::, __: thus , ' who used the greatest influence among=t that p , oplc. and i escued those missionaries, and protected eclelefeeded e sses -- • ~. ee. And that was almost the first time in which the Parliament of them, and thus through the means of those ver ufen seithsiist ___ --1 „, ti e United Kingdom had touched that sore plane with a view ministers had been so go grossly and wantonly i leeel e Alate of healing it. They were now disposed to deal with that public peace had been preserved. —(Hear, hear.) tisidee a i l e d s a‘k A N I , religion a s one vvhieh was preferred by the body of circumstances he would ask their Lordships would thl , Se sur the people. He took the liberty of moving for pried to hear that the public peace had been violated ;he a return which was now on the table of the House would Fay that if the people had remained passive at the time of and he wished to call the attention of their Lordshios to it. in that occasion they would have shown themselves not men, but order to show the falsity of the idea that they were now called less than men to have done so.—( Hear, bear.) The Protestants upon to do something new, that. they were now unprotestant. of Ireland, it had been said, had expressed themselves as hos ising England, and that they were unchristianising the king- tile to this measure; sonic persons who had arrogated that title dom. Nothing could be more false ; and it was more flatter- had sent in petitions certainly, but he denied that ing to those who made statement s to that effect, to suppose that they were the Protestants of Irelane ( Heer, hear. ) they were ignorant of the facts, than that they were guilty of He was a Protestant, and as such he should Sal that mere in flagrant misrepresentations. The return which he alluded to jury than service was done that eetabli-hment b such toots as showed the conduct of this country with respect to the religious that there were some parishes in Ireland with rich emoluments instruction of the colonies. The return showed that which but no parishioners; whi!e in others there were parishioners ought always to be the case—that in the discharge of their but clerical inefficiency.—(Hear, hear. ) Yet he would never colonial duties they considered that there were moral and re- be the man to consent to the endowment of the Catholic ligious responsibilities engaged, and how these duties had t hureli rut of the revenues of the Protestant Choreh.— been performed had been shown on the face of the returns. (Cheers.) He had hard the Noble Duke say, that the Re• They showed that 163,000/. were appropriated in one year to man Ca frolics were there, and what was t' be riorte with them? the Church of England; 09.000/. for the Church of Se it- He was glad to hear that admission, for there was a period in land. Wesleyans, and the various denominations of Protes- Ireland—the year 175 e—when it was declared from the judi tant Dissenters, were allowed 46,0001., and they appropriated to cial bench, that it was assumed that there was we such tiring that very Church of Rome, fer the actual instruction of the in the country as a Roman Catholic.--( Hear, hear.) lie be people of the Church of dome, for paying their priests and devil the Catholics of Ireland felt the sanctity of an oath es their Bishops, the sum of 2.6,00 e/ —That was not the intro- much as any Protestant, and it never coule be said that they duction of the presen t d a y, i t was no t th e act of his Noble had ever violated their oath of allegiance to +he Creen. Friend, but it was the act of their predecessors in office. Ore Sueli being the case, why ens it to lie sai I that of the latest of these coloni a l e s t a bli s hments w hi c h h a d been those who voted for this grant were those who assented to founded, arid which he would cite to illu s trate the pr ncip , e violate the oath of allegiance ? He had ever found the Ca he had laid down. He alluded to the proceedings with respect tholic priests denounce the violation of the law, and he had to New South Wales. In this colony the voluntary principle known them not only encounter risk, tint even death, in sup. was not laid down—a principle which he disliked as much as port of the law—( Hear, hear)—and as an example of that, he any Noble Lord opposite, for he did not like to see religion might mention the Rev. Mr. el'Queeny, who was shot in so treated as an immaterial thing left to shift for itself. He laudable a work.—( Hear. hear.) In Clare the Catholic thought it was the duty of the &ate to protect r e ligion a s m u c h p r i ests h a d even b e en reiused access to their own chapel in as any material interest. But he must tell their Lordships consequence of their efforts to uphold the law. While he said what principles had been acted on. There all religions were this he must admit that many of the pri. stn were politically protected—all religions were endowed in proportion to their excited, and there might have been fooli h, and indiscreet number, and the result was in New South Wales most satin- songs sung on St. Patrick's day at the College of factory. He would a , k any Member of the Right Reverend Maynooth, but while he said this he must at the same time ad bench whether there was any colonial establishment under the mit that he should be sorry to hold himself respomeble Cr any dominion of the Crown in which the Church of Eng- man for the songs that had been sung at Trinity College It laud had been more successful —in which its prin- was said that there was great evidence of the opposition of this ciples had taken a deeper root—more prosperous in any country to the Bill in the petitions that had been presented. way whatever than it was there, under this system of endow- He objected to those petitions being considered as any evidence ment? The Right Rev. Prelate must be aware of what he against the grant to Maynooth. Many of them were presented had stated regarding this colony from the reports which by Dissenters, and wi , at did their petitions amount to? Were reached their Missionary Society. But his object in referring they against Maynooth? No, but against any Church en to this was not to show that Parliament had endowed error. dowment at all. He rejected them, therefore, altogether as bear for if they went upon that principle they must disavow all past ing upon the qeestion. The politics of the last ten years legislation on these subjects. Ohn but some might say these he believed had caused the great excitement oe this 'object. were but colonies, then would their Lordships say to the people He was sorry to say that Ireland had beset the battle field of of Ireland, we will do more for the remotest, the most insignifi- party ; every thing Irish or Roman Catholic, both in Parlia cant colony that exists, than we will do for you. We pay the ment and out of doors, was held up iii a way to cause cxtio e. Roman Catholic priests in Australia—we pay them in Van ment, and those parties had conjured up a cry for w bleb they Dieman's Land, but to the priests in Ireland, for their educe- were now suffering. He did not recur to the i ast with airy tion we consider it would be sinful to contribute.—( Hear, feeling or desire to be reproaehful. It had tier n said ire the hear.) As to the argument of the increased sum proposed, it other House of Parliament, that, in reference to thi Bill, the was preposterous, for if the argument was worth a straw it Government of the Noble Duke opposite was entitled to the would. go for the withdrawal of all grants.—(Hear, hear. ) deepest gratitude of the people of Ireland ; and, as an individual The only alternative then was to make the grant avail- member of that country, he sincerely tendered them hi- most able for the proposed intention.—( Hear, hear.) unqualified thanks.—( Hear, hear.) A wiser, and a better, Were they prepared to say to the people of Ireland—" we will and a more conciliatory measure than the present could not regard the religion of Roman Catholics wherever the flag of have been proposed, and were he disposed to apply England waves, we will consider the claims of Catholicism the magnifying eye to all the circumstances of wherever it is to be found, except en Irish soil, but when we the case, it would be impossible for him to fi n d come there we will tell you that the book called Secundus any thing to lead him to think that Government had been Secundi stands between us and the discharge of our duty.— actuated by any other motive thaw that of doir.g good in intro ( Hear, hear.) The Irish Roman Catholic peasant wished to ducing this Bile—(Cheers.) They must have known, from have their priests educated—the Roman Catholic Bishops their pest experience a d from past occurrences, that the wished their pastors educated in a manner that would be measure would be objected to by many of their supporters, creditable to the Church, but what ,do you tell them ? while, on the other hand, they were doubtful whether it would " You admire Thomas A quinas—you have Maldonatus on be acceptable to these whom it would most and immediately your shelves, and we cannot therefore assist you." My Lords, affect. At the same time the Government must have felt it to that would not be satisfactory.—( Hear, hear.) It would be be a just and rigir measure, and having introduced it he trusted as illogical in point of fact as unsatisfactory to the Irish their Lordships would pass i . And he would here rem-irk that people.—( Hear.) But the case didnot rest there. They were the majority upon this measure was a majerity which would not to encourage error it was said—it was a national sin to do fall not merely on the question of Maynooth, but also so—the religious world were invited to join in this op. upon the question of repeal. It would prove the most signal position. Exeter-hall sent forth its petitions, and its defeat to those who had endeavoured to raise the cry that from walls re-echoed its debates. He had shown then that the Imperial Parliament no justice, no conciliation, and no they supported Catholicism elsewhere—that they had sane- kindness to Ireland was to be expected.—( Hear, hear, ) Why, tioned instruction in Catholicism from the year 1793 in it was palpable that the contrary was the fact. Let them look Ireland, but they had gone farther. He held in his hand the through the annals of past times, and they would find that the report of the affairs of the East India Company. He found, in Irish Parliament refused all inquiry into the question of tithes, respect to Bengal, they supported there a Mahometan College while the Imperial Parliament removed the abuse of tithes at Calcutta—that they supported another at Benares, and just altogether. Ihe I, i-h Parliament adopted the most vexatious let them hear the reason. The Noble Lord then read an ex- and most odious system of taxation, reaching the pickets of tract, the substance of which was as follows, from the report.— the humblest of the people, and this abominable system the " The Calcutta, or Mahomedan, College was founded at the Imperial Parliament had destroyed. —(Hear, hear.) The request of several distinguished Mahomedans. There have Irish Parliament passed the Penal lets, but the been grants of money ; inspection and inquiry ; a course of Imperial Parliament abolished them. He said, then, science was taught there, comprising natural philosophy, law, the Imperial Parliament had a claim upon the consideration astronomy, geology, oratory, rhetoric, &c. The salaries were and respect and affection of Ireland. Whatever might be told there fixed." In like manner, at Benares, there was a Sanscrit to the people of Ireland, their feelings, their interests, ant he College, founded " for the preservation and cultivation of the could say their religion, were respected and regarded much laws, literature, and religion of the Hindoos, arid more part.- snore, and much better by the Imperial Parliament than they cularly of the laws of the sacred city." Were they, after could be by a Parliament of their own. —( Cheers. ) this, disposed to go back to Ireland, and say, " We The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S said it was not the peculiar have founded the sacred city of Benares—we have nature of this measure as connected with the interests of reit provided for the instruction of the Mahometans, we gion, nor was it the want of unanimity on this _subject observ have provided for the Hindoos, but from those who able on the bench of which he was an occupant, that made him are near to us, and ought (and I believe are) desirous to trespass upon their Lordships, but there was another dear to us, we will withhold this grant, and argue against the consideration he had in view in rising to address their Lord grant, on the ground that we will not condescend to increase ships. After the differences of opinions which had been error." He was of opinion that the Christian religion, in auy exhibited on this matter he was extremely art'xious nor. to give modification, or in any sense of the words, wa s not error. Let a silent vote on this occasion. He reseetted the opposition out them prove to him that that religion was error as compared of doors against this measure, and the turn it had taken was w ith that of Hindoos and Mahomedan, and then, indeed, such as absolutely prevented him giving a silent vote, H e be. they would be justified on this ground in withholding the grant lieved unfair means had been taken to abuse the public opinion to the people of Ireland; hut whilst they patronised the re- upon the subject, and, moreover, although the opposition ligion of the Hindoos—whilst they supported the sacred city of presented a very compact and united front, it was impsts. Bemires, he did not see how they could refuse the people of sible for their Lordships to coot-ral from themselves the Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) One word more; they had built a fact, that that front covered as great a difference and repugnance Roman Catholic church at Surat, and Roman Catholic churches of opinion as existed between those who supported and de in other parts of the Presidency of Bombay. The argument fended the measure.—(Hear, hear.) And that observation was suggested to him by his Noble and Learned Friend on the applied no less forcibly to those who contended fur the volun. Woolsack (Lord Brougham) —who did not advert to it because tary principle, for some were in favour of religious voluntary he wished as much as possible to impress the subject ; and principle, while others advocated a political voluntary principle, what had foreign countries done ? Did they treat the and the two were as wide and as far assunder as religion of the people adversely because it differed from that of the poles. It had been a matter of doubt with some, whether the majority, and would this be used as an argument for treat- any principle was involved in the Bill, and on the whole he ing the Roman Catholics of Ireland in the manner they had was inclined to think that the Bill touched upon little that, done ? No such thing. Let them look to France. Look to could be called principle. He could perfectly well understand that other countries where there were differences of religious those who objected to the annual grant, could object still more opinions, and see whether this would be a safe lesson to read to strongly to the increase, and he could just as easily understand the people of Ireland. We might tell them that forei g n men- that those who assented to the annual grant might n o t be sa tries showed more respect and deference to the religion of tisfied with the policy or the wisdom of the pressnt measure, Protestants in foreign countries than Engl a nd showed to the but he really could not see how those parties could dissent people of Ireland. He was perfectly warranted in saying that from the Bill on the ground of any thing like princip.e.—( Hear. ) this question presented at least one peculiar characteristic. The principal object which he had in addressing tieir Lo 0- Then no one had suggested any alternative, any proposal, or s hip s was, that he might nave an opoJrtunity of ex e i.toin ~, ets remedy, in case the present grant were removed. The Noble principles on which he supported the eresent ores-ore, but he Earl (Roden) did not say his motion was an alternative, but, could net do so until he had cleared the way by rein.,v,ti sore with the frankness and honesty which characterised him, said of those objections which had so powerituie iutleenced the that he did not propose the motion in any serious light, but public mind, and until he had shown why those objection s had purely as an objection to the Bill. But what not affected his opinion in voting against the proposed grant. were they to do? Were they to pass the Bill or leave He would briefly notice one objection with respect to tee pre the law as it now stood—or were they to repeal that law? sent subject. It had been assumed that this Those who argued against the present state of things in May- measure was essentially a sacrifice of principle to nooth could nut vote for the continuance of the present grant— expediency, and we had been assured it was right to do evil by their own account they could not permit the present state that good might come. That principle was not right it was of things to continue. A suggestion had been made in th e evident; but he would wish their Lordships to reine.ober that other House for the removal of the grant, bul nobody was found the dictum was totally inapplicable to the present cate. The to suppo t that proposal. Surely those on the other side who cases to which it might be appropriately applied were those would oppose any grant, could not be favourable t o th e on ly i n which there was unmixed good and unmixed evil, or Irish Roman Catholic prieshood receiving a foreign education, unmixed truth and unmixed error. If the maxim were to be Would not the arguments of ultramontane doctrines and fo- applied to the present measure, it must be expi essed in very reign influence be stronger than at present, and Mr. Lord, a different terms. The question was not will you do high authority on these matters, said, referring to the College good in order that evil may come, but will you do good of Rome, " What can we expect to get from Rome but foreign with a slight admixture of evil, or will you refuse to convey influences, bigotry, and superstition." This, upon the Noble truth, if it be a truth, amalgamated with the smallest quan- Earl's own showing, would appear more objectionable. In tity of ertor. This objection would apply to all the arguments the course of the Noble E ar l' s opening speech, in that had been raised against the present measure, and all the moving the amendment, he referred to a great and fallacies that had been brought forward to compete it would be high name—clarunr et venerable nomen on e which completely answered, if it was inquired had anything better must excite the sympathy and command the respect of the been proposed as a substitute than tnat which was now offered. people of England. He meant Mr. Wilberforce.--( Hear, He would say, do all the good you can when you cannot do hear.) From the manner in which his name had been intro- all the good you wish. He would now proceed to another duced, those who were unacquanted with his character and point, which embraced many considerations within its Parliamentary conduct might suppose that Mr. Wilberforce sphere, but he would confine bin observations to only was against the Roman Catholic religion, and especially against one. The present measure had been stigmatised the grant to Maynooth. In the words which Mr. Wilberforce as a measure that sanctioned idolatry and superstition. They used in ItloB, he could see no such expression.—( Hear, had been told by the Noble Earl that idolatry and superstition hear, hear.) The question at that time was whether were very hard names and harsh terms, but they were not only under the peculiar circumstances of the case the Percival harsh terms but also very loose and indefinite terms, and they Government was or was not justifi e d in continuing the in- conveyed a general idea of some kind of religious error, wt :le, creased grant mole by their predecesso rs in office ; but what at the same time, they suggested feelings of centeringi and did he say on that occasion? He called attention to that hatred, but they performed the latter part of their office because the name and authority of Wilberforce were high, and more effectually than they did the other. He would wi"h must have the greatest influence on the minds of persons op. their Lordships for one moment to consider the state posed to the grant. The Noble Duke the Secretary for Ire- of religion among the most savaole,degraded, arid land observed that he would not object to the grant on prin- uncivilized races that were kn own . either in ancient Think of the votaries of .tugger the ; he had never said he would object to or modern times. . the grant on principle. The Noble Duke, referring to Pare naut, and of the miserable idolatry of Iceland and the south what stronger terms could be applied to liamentary documents, stated distinctly that he objet ed to the Seas, and then say increase, because there was already a sufficient number of them than the epithets of idolators and superstition. —( Hear. priests for the population. Mr. Wilberforce , in place of He would oath, a s if wouldtb ey i had tsoeefr n , o eta w xidipimse fo da r ireeo t ea h ftl e mtae fi r ti s am t irt t iwm ande,r d t to 5r e f ias u e r ot m enat t h h hle e e ) objecting to the Maynooth grant—instead of saying anything coronation to testify his ad condemnatory, said, "I am for toleration—we not only doubt that f as h s e onecessary epithets that would stigmatise man tolerate but lend encouragement to the Roman Catholic re- mouth o „ i p i t t he w t ligion." Mr. Wilberforce did net condemn that—if he here nee had condemned it he would have voted against the small vote of his subjects as idolators atidisleeststuetepreenerinsstiintg.io..ouus superstitious. as against the large ; but he spoke in approval of it contrast- was doubtless , fthe ho w w e e r v e e t r :ken th i a n t ,he th fue ing the conduct of the people of England with the conduct objected to i _ of other countries, in which they regarded toleration as the die- words were not int y ended to be made the subject of a discussion, charge of a national duty, that thy not only tolerated--that succor as had been heard from the Noble Duke on the cross was they had not only ceased to persecute and withdraw disa- benches. He would say that in public documents it would be bilities, but they had done an act of grace and favour like that better to avoid language which must necessarily give birth to of founding Maynooth. Another name had been used which had angry and unpleasant feelings on every point. There was a great intuence—he meant the name of Alexander Knox. solemnity annually performed by the Church of England w bleb A more pious, respectable, and respected man could not be was a thanksgiving fur deliverance from great danger, and he named, and the best proof he could give of it was the fact that hoped that that solemnity would ne v er be abelished s he was the intimate friend of Bishop Jebb. Well, then, he hut he considered it was instituted for the purpose of ( Lord Monteagle) would now show their Lordships that the re-creating religious animosities, and itir wsiin Noble Lord opposite (Lord Roden) was mistaken when he opinion a matter of c on g ratulation from the ,Lordships_ that stated that Mr. Knox was opposed to the Maynooth grant. they were discussi n g the p resent measure on the 4th of June, The Earl of RODEN said his statement was, that Mr. Knox and not on the sth of November. As to the coronation oath, was opposed to the proceedings in Maynooth, not to the grant which mig ht contain the words su p erstit i ous and idolatrous, it to it—quite the contrary , was absurd to suppose that the Sovereign of this realm could Lord MONTEAGLE—WeII, then, he would show the ever be bound to set himself in opposition to the constitutional k House that Mr. Knox was not only not opposed to the grant, interests a and wishes of his people . were H . e T w h a e s ro on w ly a s . pea ing a s however, or felt unfavourably towards Maynooth, but that he had, in fact, towh t superstition and idolatry We were told that the resent t always been favourable to it. It appeared by an authority he another point . had now before him, that Mr. Knox was at one time made the measure in which idolatry and superstition u wo ' old " be If there were no error in it, he would medium of communication between the Government and 6 May- af _ sanctioned.flvela , lmit there was no gainsaying it.—( Hear hear. nooth. He was examined before a Committee he i ( n 18rtj Mont- He w y ould illustrate his view of the subject by reference to the he had been twenty years in the eagle) had mentioned, and his appointment evidence was to the effect that tact that in the Government of Saxony—a country whets the he applied for an increase of the grant Ni to ' Maynooth and got it; great mass of the people were Protestants_oo,orendtuilil:yrswhee`rde therefore, it was quite clear that I r. Knox could not have been granted to relieve the Roman Catholic, when taken a salary for twenty years in that situation if he did not placed in difficulties. He could not s ee th a t i n d o i ng this the Ito.. give hie entire approva l to Maynooth man Catholic religion had been rec ogn i se d. I t t h at was so, as he " Hear, hear.") The Noble Lnrd opposite had made a state dit, then he would a s did t h e present measure sanction tho speech on this subject, which cert.inly ha d made a great impre,s. Roman Cath o li c re li g i on i n any ot h er way ? It was a question sion on the House particularly in reference to what he had of calculation which persons of a great variety of opinions stated about the occurrence in Dingle ; but he (Lord Mont.. might join in supporting, without its leading in any way to the eagle) would say that all these statements should not be taken sanctioning of religious error, more than in the other case for granted ;or that, at least, some allowance should be made which he had given. He believed that this grant would neither for the state of feelings of the different parties.—( Hear, hear.) strengthen or perpetuate the Roman Catholic religion. He (Lord Monteagle) had also heard something said about the —.(Hear, hear.) There was one other matter to which he Catholic people not keeping their oaths, and he would have a would refer before proceeding to state, as succinctly as he could, word or two to say about that presently ; but in reference to hisreasons felt supporting the Bill. It was a point containirgy the Dingle case, the parties charged were tried by a mixed jury the eseence of the question. He did not see there was :re d their own countrymen, and a verdict of guilty returned sufficient ground for the amendment of the Noble Earl pro against them. Now, he believed they had all heard of certain posing a Select Committee to inquire into the character and proceedings that had taken place in the island of Achile. He doctrines of the College of Maynooth. The inquiry proposed (Lord Monteagle) had heard a statement of the particulars by the Noble Earl either went too far, or did not go far from an eye ovilness,a barrister and a relative of his own, and he enough. For his part, he agreed with the Noble and Learned (Lord Monteagle) could not but say that. these proceedings Lord opposite, and with a Right Reverend Prelate were such as would be sufficient to hear dente all human who had already spoken on the question, both of whom said restraint' before it.— (Hear, hear.) The circumstances of the that such an inquiry was altogether unnecessary. But, admit occurrence were these— certain missionaries went to the i,land tin g that it was necessary, it was not sufficient to take the Col- Achile, and a cert ain p ersonage, o f w h om they al l had heard lege of Maynooth—they must take a much wider range. They a great deal, namely, Dr. Machale, upon hearing of this must not only ascertain the present condition . of that , arrival, proceeded to the island to offer up the solemn sacrifice college at the present moment, but also what tli.hm it en w t u were a of the mass. All the Catholic people of the island had a fermer time, when theprofessors thatof A. e_ assembled round their clergy on the occasion, and their form ! L.,),a1 aid true in their attac . hme h nt , to of worship was offered up in the usual form of ecele-iase:cal They should not only do_ te pomp and solemnity; but while the Roman Catholic people ci. ,s-booke Ir;ti , _ were thus engaged in prayer, those missionaries came amongst coieges iii England, them, and, holding up in the midst of that large crowd I kind of what they called a " consecrated wafer," asked the people was that what they called their God ? In consequence of this there Roman I neat—atß Rome, ti-le t c a obin principles. books ,ripsw..n.Scotland. and irtehiey.,-,s3h;oueleddeasicseerltaeeinre thethe educationu in other Roman Catholic Ise ed in the coll. ges on the Conti and other cities, where Catholic o, students would have to be educated, suppoe r re' ga ve ed to ' the re Pl 4 sn d OC4 trs l OP t 0 , I of le l es' roc_i ; 7 1Ct i (Of 0 . 1 ;