The Sun. — London, England, 1803-06-03 00:00:00

was given to Parliament noon thesetubjeets ; on the ' contrary,: .His Majesty'a i Mintsters.hadcontinually , • held our hopes of a perniaoent Peace, and had talked of profound Peace, when they must know that the : . Country was every moment on the verge of War. Could they say, that at those periods when they pro. ..mised profound Peace that they believed in its cone. nuance Could they sit* so, when they had sent Mr.. Wore to Switzerland to make War, if he could have done with any prospect of success, and particularly when that MistiOn vas coupled with an order sent out for the win-evacuation of the Cape of Good Hope, „Which would have been a palpable vitilation - of the . Treaty of Amiens ;Gr did they think that Bonaparte - WCitild not have resisted our persisting; in retaining the `Cape under such circumstances ? With respea to the general condua of - Ministers since the Peace, 'the Answer of Lord Hawkesbury to M. Otto, dated . the i Bth of Augtisr, might be called moderate, but the tone of it appeared to him to be low and humble, in answer to a haughty NOte. Ministers had Waged the prosecution of Peltier, and with respea to the French , Princes, slow and bumble tone had been assumed,' which was extremely unbecoming, whilst a sentiment • was attributed to I'lis Majesty, which he was sure never entered into the mind of His Majesty, that His Majesty had no wish that those Prince& should remain in this Country. - When the Persons who were stiled Commercial CommisSioners were sent to this. Country, and their objeil was dis covered,' instead of aning as they did, His Ma jesty's Ministers ought to have Sent a remonstrance upornthat subjea that would have made the,Thuille. rtes shake. It was certainly true that His Majesty's Ministers had no desire to go to war, as it was evi. dent from the documents before the House that they had no such desire. ;He did not deny the good intentions of His Majesty's Ministers, but they had riot firmness adequate to encounter the perilous tri. sis . to which we were now" brought. Ile concluded 'by deprecating the adjournment, and supporting the original Motions. The. Earl of CARNARVON said, that . the, spirit and courage of the ,People was roused, but that spirit and courage must necessarily rest in a confidence in their Leaders; and must be sunk in a distrust of those Leaders. He would ask the Noble Lord (MuuoaAvE) who moved the Adjournment; whether the confidence of the People rested with the present Government ? The Noble Lord had said, that the attention oldie People ought not to be drawn, at the present crisis, to the GoVern ment ; but that attention was already drawn to the Government, and if the •Motions were withdrawn, argot rid of by an Adjournment, would it not leave the People in despondency ? • They had been told at a former period, that the Peace was, likely to be lasting, and they were taught to. believe that our . weakness, and the strength of the Enemy, was the best security for that. Peace, which, since . its' fai lure, Lad been called - an Experimental Peace. A Noble Lord (the Earl of Was - raioiti..A.N4'hial Said, that ie was a Peace made to gain time ; if so, it was ' a Peao of Fraud, it was what we had -reproached . k'ranct with, and complained' of as an .hostile ad. No imformation had been given by Ministers to Parliament On the state of the affairs, until they considered - War as ineVitable. They were to, consider whether it was 'not -in vain t 6 draw upon the laSt 'dregs of domestic, comfort, for . - the supper' rt'nf the present Contest, If the People - had rrot confidence in the Persons with wets to draw those means: Lord ELLENBOROUG II said, he was entirely . initnacal to the adjourriiient, as . he thought, a deci sion Ought 16 be come to, it not upon the original Motian„ at least upon the previous question was indignant at the idea of 'giving ,Ministcrs day-rule fur pearnission,.to hold their places. He woulftOot z . o over all the topics which had been so rt. pratedly urged, but he hoped that a speedy end would be put to their di)cussions. He could not bear 'to bear the capacity of ,Ministers arraigned by the In c4nible, on their want' of knowledge impeached by thoite who knew nothing. A Noble Earl had talked of the original sin in the foundati.!rr of the present' but the • Noble Earl forgot' that ' otig moat sin began before we were born, and that we Wen: not answerable for it. - At the time that the PTCS tilt Administration came into power,- dark., clouds were thickening every hoUr around us, and he believed rio man who did riot possess firmness, would have accepted of offices at that period, when added to our , foreign - Enemies, there were still existing the snioaking embers of an unex.. tinguished Rebellion. airing that - Administta. tion, our glorious success _in Egypt . tocik - place, the honotir of the Country : was supported. in., every quarter of the World, nor' was any sacs. Ices made like the period of thePeaCe. The Nation ochausted by a- long_ War 'called 'for Peace—the Peace was made, and was approved o f Par. , liament and the People. The - Peacq.Was an experi.. , menu, that it was fit and propel- to make ;:.and he was one who . thought, the eneritnent would have been - . more linccesstul. lie denied,' that the Peace Was a fraud—it was a scandal on the Nation '7•ti dill it a fraud : what, if lie saw 'that his Enem , y at' a future period, be enabled to place in a more dangeroua Situatinti, and that he , - therefore rested in order to provide resource. 'against 'that period, was he therefore to be called - a fraudu. `hilt combatant ?, With repel to- the Condufi of iVlinisters previous to the present War, which had - been already approved of, he contended that the Report of Sebastiani, and several other . hostile alts' were not adequate causes for War, until the Coon try saw that cOnsidetable efforts had been made to Preserve Peace, and that those efforts 'had ,failed.. Ile d i d not mean t o say that they. were not adequate, causes . in thernielves, but they. were not jutifiable' causes -under the circumstances of the case. With, re)Pett to the detention of our ships, every Country. had a right to make Municipal Regulations respect.` j9g ita trade and navigation, in the same manner - as we had to enaa' the Xavigation Mt, whil. t lie admitted at the same time that the rekulations made. in France respeaing our NI - easels were made ill an • inimical spirit with resped to Malta, which was of *mitcl7l4l . importance 10 t hi s c auro ry with a. "Orly to our Indian rilossessions,, it had, bcCOlll possible that the Treaty of Amiens could be ex. riaited relative to that was theridut e tlet;etsal y for 'us to re t ain it- until some uUit.r .aid,`""ifsVd retained it, heshould consider it as a Peelatation of Wat, 'he' was - the pefson there : fore, who comirutted ihe'first,,aCt of hostility which. rendercd,tha,„War necessary. Lord Hawkesbury's letter to IV!. Quo had been referred to, and it had been said, that the tone of it was low and humble, but.he wished that the Noble. Lord who made the assertion, would try his hand at 'mending any para graph of it. It had been asked, why did not Mi. sisters "corm to Parliament, the situation (,), affairs betaveeo the two Countries ; but he asked any Nobt4' trird °to Tay "his hand upon ,any Paper, and tol - ay, that that ought to'have been communi cated ,by tlis Maje Sty's ;Minikters, to ,Parka_!lint, pending a Negotiation which involved the questiOn 'of Pe:ice or War ? The Ministers would, indeed, have deserved the charge of want of firm ness, if they had come down to Parliament upon every point or the Negotiation, instead of waiting till they could communicate the final result. He trusted, therefore, the House would shew, by its de cision, that Ministers ought t'o have that credit and confidence which they had so well deserved by their condud. Earl SPENCER took a view of the conduit of Hii Majssty's Ministers from the first period of their having come° into power, down to the present time, and pointed out several parts of which he felt himself bound to disapprove.: he maintained, that they ought to have come to Parr liament with information, when they knew that the mit Article of the Treaty of Amiens had be. come Imprafficable, instead of which they had lulled the Country into a false security of the con. tinuance of Peace, He expressed an apprehension that they were carried away by the desire of popu larity, as the authors and continuers of Peace; but they had no occasion to be so impressed, for that at the time of the signature of the Treaty, the people oh this Country were by no' means clamorous for Peace ; on the contrary, they so little expelled it, that it came upon them by way of absolute sur prise. The Noble Earl having expatiated largely ,on the various parts of the conduit tit' His Majesty's Ministers, said he had great esteem for them as in dividuals, but he felt himself-bound to say, that as a Peer of Patliatnent, they did not possess his con- • Lotd-411ELFILLE said, that after the best at. tension he 'was able to give . to the question, he found'himself impelled to concur in the Motion of Adjournment., for several reasons ; first, because if this Matter was entered into at all, it would take up. the greater put Of the remainder of the Se - ssion, if it was to be adequately _discussed, and it . *AS bet ter not to discuss it ail than to discuss it impelled_ ly, loecontily, that although this wss an important point, and their Lordships had certainly the power of interfering to address the King to remove his Mini sters, yet they had also b sides their laiweronother thing consider which was the exercise of their discretion ; Am) he thought• that before any thing else was done, that the 'House should do * ever a y thing in its power to put t he Cou nt ry into pro per estate for its defence at this most important Orisi, as well to encourage the people at bottle, at tt3 teach the Enemy abroad, that we are an united People, which was not to be ,accomplished by a party struggle oF who shook! get places undeoGo. moment ; thirdly, 'Becatex there was no reason tot presuming that the Ministers did not possess the entire confidence of the Crown ; anti therefore if the linme,addresied HiS Majesty to remove' them, it might not perhaps, be quite easy to agree upon others' to supply their paces, and this was ' not j time to be without an Administration. 'He was old ehouAit to retn6tiber when, in the tune of Lord North, addresses %vete very general for the removal- of .Ministers, and Par. fiament interfered, addressed, the King, the Mini,. stern Were accordingly rem , ived,but atter their re moval it becaMe difficult to form another Admini. stration in whom the Pitblic 103 confidence. An , • Administration, however, was Afterwards formed With much difficulty, but it dissolved 64011 after. wauls by its own disi4nrion ; his Lordship assign ed several reasons why he could not be able to assent to the several . propositions with which the original 'Motion was proposed to be followed . up, and Some others in which lie could assent for disproving .of the cantina of Ministers, par ticularly in giving up the Cape cf- Good I lope, which he:considered of immense value to u, ; but 411 these topics he said were mml touch too laborious a discussion for the present. _He justified " his cOn dutt with regard to the planning of the Expedition to Egypt, , and'paiti a tribuie of praise to the me. mory of Sir Ralph AbercrombY, who had so great a share in the execution' Of it. He also allowed great. credit to be due to the present AdMinist ration . for the manner in which they brought that matter to a Ormination, as also fiir the winner they hatttermi 4nited the 'contest betiveen this country and the Nt'irthern Powers. He toneluded with gitiing his hearty assent to the motion of Adjournment. 71e , t ISU ?FOLK said a few words, with a view of shewing teat o Martinirp;e and Guadaloupe, not to the plan tir Ministers, but to Sir Chlries Grey's not 14:Ong strictly followed their.orders, whin his, Lordship stattiti as' aim instanceof incapacity. Lard LIOIMAT had'lto knowledge .of what had just been stated. ' fie complained of-the mannerin Ministers were treated oh the present occasion Motion was matte to censure them-they were aware, that as .they had been in a ver y arduous situation,-iu which there ttinst tie many things done, which without eloseexamination might oe dis.tpp roved of; they - were not anxious to have ins Inquiry into th,li duet, but they were ready to meet it ; censure to be moved , on Ministers was no light Matter, and yet now it was pro_ posed that the question should be ajourned, by which they would be lett in. the same siwatio4 as they were in before the debate; with the dilierence only of having had their conduct. Complained. 0f.,--1.10 tookoecasion to say, that he did not entertain the same opinion of the value of .the .cape as the Npble Viscount who had preceded him-,,fie etmeluded with. expressing a wish that as Ministers' conditet had been cm sured by somcNoble,iands, the House would not agree to the Motion of Adfinirnment; but would Lune to a vote upon the original question. LordVAßYS.l i vAir thought tfic I'4=og:it , ; , 1 the C lOW I), In ehusing its own' Ministers ' of great hupottince, ati.t th.tt it was inter Ming to the Public to preterve it inviolate, but at time same timmilitought that the House of Lonis :druid not remain in a state of incrtncss en the eondua of lid:: Majesty's ' Ministers, bem:anse-t hat • would he very discohta4ing to the Public % w 1104 clitAxy ought to he as much as possible brought fortvard portaut • - • L.;ed 'AN 1::1" thought, thil wai not the right einitse "111 , tbotight'tliat arty Nobio I td visited cis tiv.i:i - s condut. at His Tvlaie?A%,'s Mintstets, the tight • s‘fai WLM bL! 9, I' CL-N,dUtiiat b!, a_Coutirtittcv itquiry lie thought Mi.iutmters wvm-e ticit fairly 10: 41 - 0 114',4 course be-- Lai. certainly was werotible their Lordships at kilate at hotrr, yet he could 'nit enter into ttoy,apology for so doing, because; considering• . the subjeel fore the House, he, thonght it would, on his part, be a disgraceful desertion of leis duty if be Were to remain silent upon this occasion s , and that the - More especially after, what-liad fall-en from hiS Noble and Learned Friend: He had said, he thought Ministers had a right to complain of the form and manner in 'which the subjea n was brought forward. Now his Ndble• and Learned Friend was not ignorant that' those Who brought forward this Motion, might, if they had so chosen, have stated all ^the objeCtions they had to urge against the conduit of the. King's ,Ministers, on the very night when they considered the !lieu_ merits which were laid upon the Table, together with the Declaration of His Majesty npon the suh. jest of the War.. If there was any deviation from the mode stated by the Noble and Learned Lord to be the .usual mode, it arose from two eauaes— firit, from a desire to separate the consideration of the State of the country front every other considers.. don; secondlyi:that Ministers ,theinselves might be prepared to take what course they liked best ;. nor was there the least difficulty on his part in as aenting 'to the subject. being discussed in a Corn mittee of Itiquirk, if any one of His Majesty's Ministers should say he thought that the most ad. vantageous mode for himself, He had avoided say. any thing of the condua of the King's Ministers on the night of the diSeuesion nf the question of Peace or War, upon the Information laid before the House,. although for the last tWelvethonths he had most unthaubtedly . much to state by way of Censure upon them, hut he abstained for two reasons first, be cause he would nor have the people of this Country suppose that any consideration could supersede that of their" interests ; secondly,' that ehe.Enteny May learn, that as far as regard's a Sted4st 01104. Lion to Mena, we are an united people ; and there:. fore it was, that when the question of Peace or War, was discussed, not a word was said upon the con. (luta of Ministers who had brought us into thi. auadon. It was true 'there was great difference of opinion on the conduit of the King's • Mini!. stets, lett that was : a subject' hich did not mix with the consideration of the conduei of the Enemy, the aggression and inselence of'which we were determined to resist, a mode of proceeding. of which its authors had no reason to'be - ashametl. They had no desire to embarrass the King's Go. vernment, they had only' the desire of pertOrming their duty, that of - eotering into a :consideration of. ,the Situation of this Country, a 4ituatien which none .felt more than those who brought the present suhje(t before their Lordships. Another in). tive they .had -for proceeding inohis, that notice should be given to the King's Ministers, who might come prepared, nor only to discuss that which they were bound to be prepared to discuss, the Paco_. merits laid before the Home, but also w discuss that which they were equally bound to be apre. pared to discuss, and that, at the same time, .as the docutnents, if any Noble Lord had insisted. upon it, hut which they , were not called upon solo discuss the subject ; on the contrary, it was made a matter of _Separate and distiria discussion, after giving Ministers the . full notice of time points which would be Made subjects of objeCtion to their caudal. He would ask whether this could be deemed an unfair mode of proceeding ?'NOw he ,was bold to say it was the (fired contrary—it was an earnest and particular desire of doieg their duty in than HOLM as Peers of Parliament, that ac. tuned those who brought this subject forward; a 'desire' to' do justice to the Country itself, and aiso to pursue the :faults of the King's Ministers with candour and moderation, nor eomplaioing of those whom they were obliged to condemn, mud after the 'other and. still snore important business was disposed of, as it had'been disposed of. It was said by his Noble and Learned 'Friend, that, this • Motion should have been preeedzal by ;in inquiry by a Committee. Now their Lettiships would ob. serve, that, much difficulty had been avoided in this case, by ,the mode in which this matte: was arranged. It was far the reason's lie had' already stated, kept 'dear ofthe geneial question of the state of the country ; ,it Was also made extremely Simple, by the charges having blot) 111 14, e spectlic. They had not contented theniselVes with Making general accusation, brit they had pointed our speci_ tic charges. the was prepared to substantiate those charges. A' 'message e sone, tune ago I'hirt the Crown, calling on the, Count!) , to atm agaiest Ftrinee.. Those who legit complained of;t conduA Of the King's ;alieisters, long before this period, suspende•ti all their proceeding - upon that subjed iM mediately, 'and from the delivery cif that 'Message, down to . the fineloloSe of the meaSure, no intertup. tion.,took 'place in the distussitin - of the public busi rteSa.. ' Now that business was over, the opp on t n er i of: Ministers came forward, and spoke sioectely of .what appeared -to be their faults, anti he mainte mood titre was twilling to complain of in the manner 'in which this was done. His Noldt'and Le:treed 'F'riced knew very well that tie debate now before the I louse might be turned into a Committee of Its. toiry, , by , any body either on the one side or the - other. If any one of I pis Majesty's Ministers should propose that this •subjeet 'should • ,even : now be referred to a Committee of Inqulty, ltis, Lordship said that he would nut olaFato He laid thUs much to &feud:himself 'against the int pntatiou of harshness, :and indeed. Noble Loral were much . mistaken it they thought he had any pleasure. in bringing this huainesslor ; the truth was, that he was pertOrming a.very paieful duty. . He now came to the question - itseil. Ilot thir i le his Noble i . rntl Learned Fri , eel f, v Ejawo to corn plain of the courose this Debate hail taken, .because' it might be changed into a Cominittee, 'as he h:0 said already ; but,-he should show their Lordships. that this course was perkily right. • His.Liardship_ ittetngti iLtal l ie should not' think it necess,try 'to go much at into this subjet% The question before the Houses before. that of the Adjeurnment was moved; was only zideclaratioe ofcertain which it 4 - 3 s no.: possible to controvert, and Which h;iti not becn ,teillyttal to In ctgaroVericti, It , N• - silted by his Noble Friend who brought liirteardthisaubjea, that it was'eueant to he tutioeeed op !ey other ,R t e, L toortions it would have bee:. tr..t-Fieg with .the l e t or t! Ptaaical measiire to Tollt4 it up, would have ,been totih, and therefOie his Noble Friend had .giVen their Lordships to understand, that if his first .motion was adopted, he shotthh low it op by another, for the removal of the King'S Ministers' as it was called, but that was not thy; form of the Resolution which his Noble Friend in tended to propose; it_Was only to express ..to the King, that the confidence Of that House was with. drawn from His ;Majesty's Ministers. - He was anxious to speak upon these points, because he was afraid that the subject hitherto had not obtained all the attention its Parliamentary importance appeared to him to &Serve, Upon the Constitutional point in this case his Lordship,observed, that he w ;As .not g Q i o p ; to pledge himself to the certainty a being in the riglJ in every thing he said in that Hoitse, like ihe Noble and Learned Lord who had Spaketifsu anthoritatively upon this subject, but he believed that no tutu would deny that Communication froM die Throne to the I lowes of P ar li a m en t w a s a very usual thing, nor did he believe that any matt who had any value for the :principles of, our Constitution would deny the propriety of. these Communications ; for without information of. this kind, Parliament would not know propetly-what duties it had 'to discharge. 'This was at point on which he saw nn dif&ulty in the invesog:ition. 'There were some things width were rattier care to pursue, and he should touch upon them very lightly. The Noble and Learned Lord had !Ad, that of all the Chatges that were made, the Charge that Ministers did' not coine dowO to Par. Ijainelit sooner, wa4 the ;Mast foolish tint ever was exhibited, and he nave a challenge to any one to hew the contrary : now his Lrirdship said, that at the ha4aril of lt-ing called foolish by .the Nod, ansi Learned Lord, he sln , uhl accept this challenge; had' called on any hotly to pdint out what was the Communication which Ministers ought to have . made to Parliament; and notwithstanding the risk he ran of exposing what that Noble anti Learned Lord called consutinuate ignorance, he would point out, not only one Ordenlar tiling which Ministers ought to have commtmiCated to Parliament, -which' they did not, but a dvail of particular pqints in which it was the duty of the King's Ministers to give itt'f , rmation to the two Houses of Parliament, in order to keep up that whiCh it was essential to the interests of this 'Country to keep up, namely, a good understanding between the Crown nthl the - two ifouses of Parliament. As to the wanner in 'which the Preliminary Articles of Peace Were de fended, and wlut had been said on the terms of them, and also the wne of the Government. with whom we treated, andh espeCially what' had been , aiLi on the tone and manner of the Ciovernment of France after the signature of the Definitive Treaty, hen it was confidently stated there was nothing in the charattet of the G , vernment of France,. or in the character of the person at the head of that Go. vernment, which ought to lead us to suppose that the peace then concludedwould not be as permanent as any this country had agiced to within the last century ; this his Lordship said he should nor now insist t' , n, a lthough it' proved a lamentable want of forest:lt,, , and inight have tni7,led the Public it there had been nothing clic to do so ; but instead of insisting upon this assertion, he' would take the matter up after the Definitive 'Freaty. The House had heard of the iholition of the Spanish Lingueti, which was a ma» tcrial part of the . to h Attiele of the Treaty of A m ie n s ; there wits, he believed, no information before -the 1 - louse when that abolition took place, although that was important on tire subject of .liall'a. It, appeart'd by the Declaration, that this ahnlition t oo k place previous to the execution of the .Ddini cave Treaty of AMiens, and when thiS was debated in Pat fiament, he . told Ministers and the }fact na that the Treaty was itopratlieable in the tart Article, on account of nheabolition of this Spanish Laugue. Ile would not risk charatter upon that matter, but his firm belief wasp that. this spanish Longues had been aholished hef'ore the rati. fication of that aid he indeed entertain a &MIA Of if—Ministers had better means of infoi. motion than others, but his Lordship had 0 film belief that this: was so, and that these Longues were abolished before the end of March. Thk sub. itql was debatedin that llouse on the t 3(li of May, aid then the Ministers . defended the pratticability of this toth Article of the Treaty—this he charged as' milliehaviour in Ministers, for by tint they mis. led the Public ` ; they ought to 'have advised His Majesty to inform the Houses of Parliawnt that the Treaty was becomeimpradicable, and theta , the two Houses would have had an opportUnity of julging - ivhat advice to give to the Throue— whether to ,endeavour to negotiate for another._ neaty, or t,} ilirsuc the War. lint it was now said, that the Treaty of Amiens,was 'only Ott ex. r.riment. it an experiumut, it was nothi`up; but untortun ire .e riawr,t ; for its (Licari, very hot , anti we ni t‘l , . irenn , nse sactitices to ( )o. • fain it sit:nt . w:+.+.s, it w..: SACTifiCeS COnCt%ssiiiilS t , 1 . 5111 , :: Enemy, whieh li Was almost afraid to ine o . God only ktww tioCii many soldierS and t,aaors, were disbanded, mid. that -when we bad so deal with an Enemy ut a cing9l,;ir ; Eneiny w h om . e,or drotts p'f force employstl for years had not h,ory able to reduce to modec.:., ruin, our M Coil - aVoured . to nthice'. Mode. rate by sobt - nisipit concession, Nnw 11+ sail, that i'vlini,t,ers kno , , , ing these things, ought n ot to tr.!) the I. that we had a treaty with I , rauce, and had cook tA c(I ih I.vh(:n th:it Very ItYbUteilt !hey that t h at Whkh thqy called a Definitive Treity - was itnprA'aiGable thing; they were told s if t ,' and they' iktended the Treaty : this his 'L(n-asltip ~n Ministers as a great Mkr.snclut`t, w !a h had the e tit&hiding tht file 3th . !I. 411 Ma ) . ser„sioo dfiat knger, and, we proceedea on . the ment tai Mai to mike I°e;reat if we h,,a Pe 4,4... until. the 9th of jutw. their :Lorao-hip,, : WiSis.... t I to know 110'N t':ifii , Ull , !lii' a4PA 3 0,t;rw%ttit;, c f er they.; tr. : the by , winch it appeared that the It 61: (ht.: Continoni, on the ias! of Par. li4tment,- wherein ht:, 4hvii,k.i flit ;Majesty for It ist. ink proetarekto t-1;s I,tithftil Sttl)jeas the: htei jriio of rCat:Prr.NOW, uo i k 5VZ,..11,;.E