The Sun. — London, England, 1839-02-13 00:00:00

bjection oppor hat op' c ontend 'endered , c lower lebrated I ho ob feelings itives,of lat cele" )f veg ro ,ber for a Wo uta question Innected )olition? ; hardly do no t t is mu c h IS HOUSC Y? ur w hich ry nee a " avow s politica l Ave no is !louse xt I shall he sense ure th e ,dente in tituencp, louse of re w-- hieb [ declare mdence. e CorP" ° lich the erati °l4 o rt th e such,: t att ee ; ajestY. 001 0 ) 0 0 0 :bat co,' ;0 0 5 ~a or 141. filed was he wrong in saying that the syste m h a d a lt oge th er ? and that the Noble Lord, with all his blandishments, during een a the whole period of tw o years, had not bble to induce more than six gentlemen to nte r a ? lit might t!':tti say titr.t "-avy this couotre—the Navy to which the geetry of England naturally looked as a profession for some of their. children, had bee.n absolutely for two years without any instrnction --that he considered was a point of some considerable im portance to the country at large. He had never heard any objection to the former plan, except that which would a PPIy to any one. He had heard some of his brother offi cers say that they could not manage these youths—that ' ! b ey came on board full of mathematics, and were (or no duty —that might very well be called stuff. ( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He never yet saw a south that could not be inatieged by some means or other. I.' the Government had taken care that the youths had been obliged to keep up to the pitch of education at had th ey h ad arrived—for instance, if the Noble Lord ",ad appointed a Lieutenant to each ship to look after that , c ia" of youth s , t o ma k e t h em work the i r observations, and Windsto in ske all th ose ca l culations necessary in a ship—theof th e yout h s would have been kept fresh, and their ucation would net have been thrown away. Wherever the former system of education had failed, he had no he sitation in saying that it was the fault of the officers. The youths were neglected, and when they intended to c ame up to pass as Lie u t enan t s t h ere a as a constant nieces _ltY for repriming aral reloading. He sh ou ld b e g l a d t o (keel- from the Noble Earl upon what grounds the esta blishment was abolished—lie was at a loss to discover, be cause the C o ll ege cost nothing, which was the oechar ge t aat the economists could have against it. While he was 'upon the subject, he would like to say a few words with respect to the naval architects. He believed that it was necessa r y to get r id of t h at establishment be cause they e d ucated men so highly that unless they found situations for them there was a danger of that .ducatiou being transferred to a foreig n p ower ; b ut mire was , a stipulation between the Government and the men who had entered apprentices to the system— ey wer e to ld that they should rise gradually from the situ ation of Foreman to Surveyor of the Navy—that situation Was to be their goal. He was afraid that ever since that eseminaryt,, hid been e s tabli s h e d very little had been done for ase youn g men. He was informed that very lately ne th 'Sse, than twelv e vacanc i es h a d f a ll en i n of s i tuations which . 3oung men were capable of filling, and yet only ono ' l ad been promoted. Ile ass anxious that the se vice should have the advantage of the talents of those young mo uld and he was anxious that they should be re warded. Before the establishment of that seminary naval architecture was entirely borrowed from foreigners ; . 1 1(1 he m i ght safely say that before that period it was car rtied on very much by the Rule of Thumb--( A laugh)—but t i ll greatly improved since inducements were held out to n r it , l ; they wer e t o b e e li g ibl e to certa i n o ffi ces, b ut many `tuein had been abolished. The offices of master of the h' ll Pwrights aed inspector o f n ava l wor k s , w i t h many ot h ers , litany ad been abolished, which used to be considered as so wriincentives to good conduct on the part of the ship ghts. Who'was First Surveyor of the Navy now ?—one Zbiho never had been a shipwright. Thus and thus the boon beh had beea held out to that class of naval workmen ba been taken away. Ought not the House to do Mlle s ,log for so useful a set of men, who had been educated, 11 2 ' who had agree d to b e treate d , upon a certain foot i ng? sal ?f them were now in the various dock 3 ards—one was the an oe's assistant ; one was in the East India Service ; Co, One was gone to America as a Professor in one of the He in that country, carrying all his science with him. h c (the Earl of Hurdwicke) hoped the Noble Lord at the etd of the Admiralty would remember this highly edu t.aed and highly -gifted class of men, and in any altera 'ens which he might make in the naval service, be kind enough to adher e , as nearly as he could, to the intentions tv be gged had b een entertained towards them ; and he now to as k t h e Noble Lord what system of education he meant to adopt in the naval service ? tl The Earl of "INTO sa id if h e h a d t h e l east id ea that 4 ! 0 Noble Earl, when he gave notice of a question to the dinir aitY, meant to go at such length into the subject of nav al edu cat i on and naval architecture, he would ve Hme dow n prepared to enter fully into those subjects. iL e (th e E arl of Minto) must express some little surprise hat So long after the abolition of the Naval College the subject should now for the first time be made the subject of discussion in that House. aa The Earl o f H ARD WICK E, interrupting—Begged t o of p lai n that h e b roug h t t h e su bj ect f orward i n consequence Nivel the many complaints he had heard u p on th e ques tion of education. The Earl of IVIINTO said, allowing that explanation to be s atisfactory, he would first proceed to state on what floolulends he had felt it right to adhere to the intention of a teener Admiralty Board as to the abolition of that Naval College, and although he might relieve himself of all re teonsibility by referring to the decision of that former uoard, he would take no such ground, and would fairly loo king that if upon com i ng into that department, and upon "king into the state of the Naval College, he had been tiabled to satisfy himself of the utility and wisdom of the i nstitution, he would not have been a party to such a s ulippression. But all the information he had received Was directly to the contrary effect. He was assured by the roost experienced officers, and those who had paid most regard to the education of the College, that it had failed in producing those highly i ns t ructe d of fi cers which it was anticipated would have been the result of its establishment. college,on ethin g be was convinced of,•th a t th e e d ucat i on at t h e excellent as it might be in its way, began at the bwirong end ; for the boys were learnt to work their pro - with great correctness, without knowing f or w h a t it ti`i t ,ncl then, after h av in g l os t t wo years of the most valu sezl`e,'"ecanse th e most prac ti ca l part of seamanship they were 1 , ,,, to sea to for ge t w h at t h ey h a d b een taught at College. fro m Pr e cv e how little b e n e fit any c l ass o f o ffi cers d er i ved l est - Le College instruction, he :ni g ht s t a t e t h a t, on t h e 171 ex araiaatio n of which a return was made, there were ad 3 Y °l lng gentlem en w h o h a d b een at t h e C o ll ege , o f r, , 0 11 el 14 were t urne d back, and 122 who had not been at ` there eges of w h om 42 were turned back. Now, certainly kho Was a disproportion between the number of those havingth been at College, had been turned back, and ba c k who not having been at College had been turned g r eate r hut he wondered that the disproportion had not been tt?e4teri for those who had not been at the College, had no , e a wn s of carrying on their studies. He was convinced th t the state of educatiou in the Navy was too low, and p a a a t tile College had been a total failure. As to the ex ], Pea eh= was a trifling point—but he believed the Col - l e eg e cost about 2,0001. a year, however, if it were 5,000/. iTishould have considered himself bound to support it, had ,:rDeer, successful. h e Earl of HARDWICKE said, that on the Mis ici-el_lafteous Estimates, it appeared that in 1832, (we be -417.) the College cost 5001., with a note, that next year th e a s expected that the whole expenses would be paid by „Zoceipts from the parents of the boys. ee 4 Earl of MINTO said the College had become e'i_Popular in the service, and it was difficult to get young l e n ri 4 to go into it, except as it happened to be the only that rite into the service. At the same time, he must say !'e i nstruction was most excellent.—( Hear, hear.) lion lee a aerea!eu to him to be more desirable that educe- Pert si e lc uld be given on board ship, where the practical it I ,l' Beatnanship might also be learnt. He had heard th at they not only failed to send out good sailors, but a za Zwas a ra re t hi ng i n d ee d to fi n d a C o ll ege man to b e te-t-C shininan. He believed the most serious objection of it e institution of the College by those who complained ev e , Was that it was an exclusive establishment; that ste w Siving it all due credit for the education it be tielc, it b estowed it on but a very small por ing a nd left the mass uneducated. His own feel of aj w : s a feeling of dissatisfaction at the result estabisiai_inquiries upon this subject. His object was to Say, as u 4 much higher education, and he was happy to w as a far as it had gone it had been successful, There th e a , t t excellent school of education established on board heones:oe;icieellgeent, from which a number of well educated Per th° e. w cre sent; all the most useful instruction obtainable at was obtainable here. Besides that, it had hi e li r 's endeavour to place in the sea-going ships gentle seh 0 ' 4 very superior class as compared with the old nlnolrnasters. The Noble Earl opposite was mistaken in , 1 4' there was no alteration in the schoolmasters' salary ? h had before from 70/. to 80/. a year, and that 41 really found to be sufficient to induce $: th !,eurneeenn of their acquirements to enter into the service, ,men condi t i on otherwise a d m i tte d o f i t . B ut a num b er se er t , i i !use gentlemen who were desirous of remaining in the t o t are, complained of their want of position in reference a o of officers, and, above all, of their want of L uY hold on the Government if they left the service. He " ci.. ati n felt the propriety of those complaints, and had en ',mired to remedy the cause of them. He also "thought th at be was entitled to seek for gentlemen possessed of a c ' ) t; P :lewhat higher degree of education than had been re t',: r °(l before. The salary therefore of the naval instruc a-I:,bad been raised ; he meswd with the officers; he had pr "°lll allotted to him, and a small retiring allowance se al Qv A id e f d ; it being so far intended to put them on the tile; I°°ti eg as that of chaplain. With this view be were were now about fifteen or sixteen young f ord almost all of whom bad taken degrees either at Ox degrac'v e arnbridge, most of them having taken wrangler's Po so ` e c : , and actually serving on board the fleet for the pur for the getting that practical education which they required , te r „ ; e Purpose of filling the improved office of schoo.mas aecesvcrY far short yet he was ready to admit, of what was th e oi s r y, and what was desirable. But in the meantime,. woeie sch oolmasters remained, and though every ship Y i et e a llo t be furnished with one of those naval instructo . s, h v e - n r Y ship had the schoolmaster, be he the chaplain or enabi e l a r nan of such qualifications only as would r e t n q e u f ite a • araii n ul to pass his examination for the situai eatieo natruetor. Such then ,was the present state of edu n boar d the ships—greatly better than what it was tre e b i Y, short of what he desired to see it. He would Mer e i y e t t ue House no further respecting the College, than elan; a ) saY that it really was not suppressed on account whe t h er pence that might have been incurred by it, but Itot c ,, that expense was ill applied or not, because it wes T s selculated for the purposes for which it was intended. e l o ti ehool of naval architecture did not answer the ex rottiuteaationa of its founders. From that school came well- Mee less men, but they were not midshipmen. They were tdhitiro,ll,,fesafitlteendg for the service than those who had_ gone a pprenticeship in the dockyard. much h av Lo t seem to have been the case that a certain number L e is l u_F . been a ll owed to retire from the service altogether, one e yed ther e was not one, or at any rate not more than b e ii ti ut er them who had f o ll owe d out t h e pro f ess i on o f t i. e • But , exp eata .. with regard to those gentlemen it was true deemedbe tons had been held out to them that they should sa %e eligible to situations of advancement at the s l / 40 i —0 ee could not see that any one could have been Tr: _lnrProzident in founding that school as to have said that t4erunfit they should be preferred to all others. But he st °od a prospect had been held out to them that at others;rate, ecteris paribus, they should have a fair chance with tl e a nn and what had happened, why every one of those gen- Lout without exception had received advancement. He le. hi g v b c o d; , of course, they' had not been advanced to the (P;nOr perhap s even to the h i gher ran k s o f t h e D e- e ' rtruente 'nee Why ? B ecause there were many o ld o ffi cers greatlY superior c l a i ms , b oth from stan di ng, i nte lli , experience and me r it, w h o h a d not b een passed lli et: in order to provide for those young men. But still, eves'y instance they had been advanced, and he was quire sure that in every instance in which a pupil of the School of Naval Architecture had been found to be as well qualified as his rival, whoever that rival might be, the balance would always incline in favour of that pupil. The fo :i7tVC; , It,Cl - 1',2C1 a aI7CAt (tfill more tiAto its just va l ue called ibr to that scboA. He nail s‘iirl that before the time of that school, the vessels which were built in this country had been built by the Rule of Thumb. Lord HARDWICKE said that what he had stated was, there did not exist a naval: architect regularly educated in this country, and that therefore the ships were built by ;ha Rule of Thumb. Lord iviiNTo would take it for granted that no charge of inefficiency would be brought against the present Sur- veyor. Lord HA RD WICK E--You have used Chapman's work, you have used the work of a Swede, you have no work of your o.vn. Lord M INTO was not about to dispute whether that was the fact or not. He understood the Noble Earl's po sition to be that our building of ships, so far as it was original, was unscientific. He would take it that the Noble Earl might be disposed even to say so of the present Surveyor. It did so happen, however, that three of the hest ships that had ever gone out, or ever been launched from the Regent's Dock-yard, were the work of tV7O un instructed, as the Noble Lora would 'call them, naval offi cers, the one the late Admiral Hayes—a man of infinite merit ; the other the present Surveyor of the Navy : and he (Lord Minto) would answer for it that if the Noble Lord would inquire amongst all those who had been in the Fleet, whether French officers, English officers, or Rus sian officers, he would be told, as he (Lord M.) had been, that the Vanguard was the finest man-of- war that had ever sailed the seas. It had been his business to consult not only the most experienced officers, but all others from whom he could suppose from their station he could obtain information, and he meant to say that he had not heard of ' any of the ships built oven by Professor Jurnau, which exceeded the ships he had alluded to. He did not think it was necessary for him to say more in, reference to the School of Naval Architecture, because he was not respon sible for the abolition of that school ; but the Noble Lord seemed to think that the gentlemen of that school had not exactly met with fair play. Now, he would say that that he did not like to put a much younger man over an older man, who bad been labouring in the same service with them. It was not that the pupils of the School of Naval Architecture were not eligible for those offices; but there were a number of highly educated officers who had ob tained their education out of it, and whose claims to those offices were much stronger. Those gentlemen were gen tlemen of great merit, and he was sorry that the pupils who complained should not sac that themselves. He (Lord M.) meant nothing but the most kindly feelings and ex pressions towards them, and entertained nothing but the most anxious wishes to promote their advancement; but he could net say that because they came from the School of Naval Architecture, they were to supersede other officers who were in all respects much better fitted to fill the offices than they themselves. He had to apologise to their Lord ships for having taken up so much time. He was not aware of the Noble Earl's intention to have brought this subject forward at this time, otherwise he should have brought down documents, and been better prepared to give informa tion on the subject than he had been able to do on this occasion. Lord HA RDWIC K E observed, that what he had meant to say was, that they had no original science, and that they were borrowing from others, whereas they might them selves raise men by education and cultivation of the science, who ought afterwards themselves to produce scientific plans and improvements in the architecture. This country had not:one such man. Mr. Chapman—the Swede, was sup posed to be the best architect that ever existed. The Noble Lord opposite had said, as he ( Lord H.) understood, that not one man-of-war built by our superior class of ship. wrights was worth anything. But had the Government given to any of those shipwrights leave to build their ships as leave had been given to Captain Symons, on his own lines and his own tonnage? Lord MINTO could only say, that a very few months before the lamented death of Admiral Hayes he did make an offer to him to build on his own lines and his own ton nage. The tonnage was not the restriction that was thought the most judicious to be put upon the builder; the most wholesome and useful restriction was, that he should carry certain yards and sails ; so many mouths' provisions, and build his ship. If he built her too large for her masts and sails, she was good for nothing ; if he built her too small for her masts and sails she was as bad. They had allowed every man to build his ship as he thought proper. subject only to these restrictions ; that she should be a ship to carry certain men, certain yards, certain sails, and certain provisions. Viscount MELVILLE, who was very indistinctly heard in the gallery, bore testimony to the present high charac ter of the British Naval officers in point of professional information. On no former occasion did they stand in so high a position ; and, if the present system were aban doned, he did not see what substitute the Noble Lord could introduce. He recollected well that after the young gentlemen left the Naval College, certain ques tions and mathematical examinations were distributed to all ships in commission, and the Captains of those ships were ordered by the Admiralty to distribute them and send back the papers after having been worked by the midshipmen. The consequence was that this system compelled the mid shipmen to go on with the routine of the College educa tion, and when they came to stand their examination as Lieutenants, they were enabled to do it much more effec tively. He did not think that at any period the officers of the British „Navy stood in a higher position in point of naval knowledge, and he hoped his Noble Friend would contribute all in his power to the maintenance of that su periority. He believed that the School of Naval Architec tare, had been established upon too high and expensive a scale, but if no means were taken to provide a substitute for that school, he would tell their Lordships, the officers of the navy whose duty it would here after be to survey and report upon the state of their shipping, would inflict a heavy and serious blow upon that department. The French had been always superior to them, and had always built better ships, in consequence of their surveyors having received a very superior education. The subject was one of the deepest importance to the country, and he hoped it would meet the serious considera tion of her Majesty's Government. Lord MINTO begged . to apologise for offering one or two observations. He could assure his Noble Friend that no one was more anxious than himself, perhaps few so much so, to raise the scale of education in the Navy. He quite agreed with what had been said by his Noble Friend of the extreme importance of the subject. He believed their naval officers were much more highly educated than formerly, but still there was room for very great improve ment. He should have stated, after mentioning what had been done with regard to providing schoolmasters, that that part of the system was not yet at work, but he hoped it would be in a few months, and it had only been delayed by his extreme anxiety to retain the services of gentlemen sufficiently well qualified. The system was partly a re vival of the college in another shape. The objection which he had formerly felt to the College was, that the instruc tion commenced at a wrong period of the young gentleman's services, and that it would have been better after six years' service at sea. He had therefore last year obtained an Order in Council for the establishment, in the first instance of a small school (and he was sure his Noble Friend would agree with him that it was necessary to go gently in the first instance), which was intended to be combined with that of the Excellent. The Excellent be ing the chief school of gunnery in that country, in which the elements of mathematics were also taught. The ad vantages of that system might be afterwards extended ; but the scientific education at present given on board ships was limited in its operation, and few could go through it. It was intended that the course of gunnery instruction on board the Excellent should be most strictly followed out, and the system would be such as to enable any officer, on application, to have his examination. As he had before stated, the delay was owing to the difficulty lie had of satisfying himself of the qua lifications of those applying for the appointment. Such was a mere outline of the plan proposed. With regard to one other point on which great stress had been laid— the examinations supposed to be carried on on board ship, after the young gentleman had left college—he had taken some pains to ascertain what the instructions were, but he had not yet been able to satisfy himself on that point. Lord COLCHESTER felt called upon to offer a few observations with respect to those questions which were distributed to captains of ships. These papers were re ceived on board the ship which he had the honour to command, and he believed an Admiralty order ex isted for sending them every month on board his ship. The papers were regularly worked, and they were only returned in the event of the ship being put into commission and paid off. He presumed that what was done in the case of his ship was practised with respect to all the others. He understood that schoolmasters were appointed en board all ships commanded by Post-captains, and that the discipline and instructions were regularly kept up among the young gentlemen. In his time they were taught to rig and unrig, to load great guns, and row boats, and that he thought was as much as could be expected from 13 to 15 years of Age. After a few further observations from the Noble Lord, which were totally inaudible in the gallery, the subject was opped,:andtheHouse adjourned shortly after seven o'clock utnil Thursday. HOUSE OF COMMONS—FEn. 12. The SPEAKER took the Chlir shortly before Four o'clock. Dr. LUSHINGTON was introduced by Mr. Thomas Dun combo and Mr. R. Fergusson, and took the oaths and his seat for the Tower Hamlets. parochial ministers, which did not teach the cate chism of the Church of England, and in which the school masters were not churchmen. The British and Foreign School Society, ou the other hand, said that they thought it desirable that the Bible should be taught in all their schools, but did not allow of any catechism in their schools, nor of any restriction upon the peculiar de nominations to which their schoolmasters belonged, allowing them to be Churchmen, Independents, or Baptists as taste might dictate, or the merit of the in dividuals indicate. Now between these twp principles there was so aside a difference that after consulting seve ral persons who held each of those different opinions— into the propriety of either of which he did not no:m enter—he had come to the conclusion that it would be hopeless to endeavour to induce them to concur in any one united plan by which they would both he satisfied. H. ( Lord J. Russell) must, however, say, that he did not think such a plan ought not to be liable to the difficulties which were felt with espect to the plan which was first put in force by his Noble Friend opposite (Lord S:anley). In Ireland there was a very great distinction between one portion of the people and another. They did not consent to read the Scriptures in the same version, and those belonging to one religion required a comment on the Bible which the others contended ought not to be ad mitted. With such a wide difference undoubtedly it was extremely difficult to form any united system of education. At the same time he ( Lord J. Russell) thought that this system had met with great success, although it had been iacumbered with such difficulty. In Eng on the contrary, the Roman Catholics did not form any great propoition' and the only other sect which did not agree in the general reading of the Bible, and that spe cies of expounding it which was necessary to the young, were the Unitarians, who did not form a considerable number. It was therefore to be supposed, that as far as religious distinctions were concerned, there would not have been the same difficulty in this country as in Ireland, in forming a united society or plan on the subject. But they must not judge by what might be supposed abstractedly, they must take the objections put forward by each sect, which he sought insuperable. lie now came to the plan lately propounded at public meetings, and which had been very lately propounded at a great meeting in the metropolis, which, as he took it, irriOed that the whole education of the country should be confided to the Clergy of the Established Church ; that no education ought to receive any countenance or assistance from the State, but that which was carried on under the immediate superintendence of the Clergy of the Established Church, by which its doc trines would be taught and enforced. Now, he must say that it did appear to him that the propounding of such a plan at the present time, so late in the history of the country was, interposing a very serious obstacle to the general education of the people.—( Cheers. ) It was no doubt she intention and the plan of the eccl:- siacical leaders of the reformation in this country, that as the Roman Catholic religion had imbraced the whole people, so the Protestant Established Church should likewise em brace the whole population of the country.—( Cheers.) That such a plan was not successful was well known. He need not go into the causes—causes which were founded on the doctrines of the Reformation itself. The result was—after very long struggles, and after the punishment and deprivation of those who dissented from the doc trines of the Established Church the result was ls_et The very first act of the Revolution o f 1688 was to establish the Protestant Dissenters of the country by the Act of Toleration. There was after this another period in the history of the Church, an era to which we all looked back with pride and satis faction, he meant the era of the establishment of the House of Hanover on theethrone. At that period these restrictions were swept away, and freedom of education established, therefore from that time the Church should not alone receive donations from the state, but education should be free, not only to persons professing- the doctrines of the Established Church, but to persons of all religious denominations.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") These principles were carried still further by the Acts 1826 and 1829, which granted relief to the Dissenters and to Roman Catholics. The Church would no longer be said to stand in that exclusive relation to educa tion, or to the general disposal of political power in this state, and education, instead of being conducted on ex clusive principles, must be conducted on the principles of general liberty and equal participation among all parties. Undoubtedly the subject of religion was of paramount importance in education, but religion constituted only a part of education; and looking to the advantage of the people,- they were bound to consider whe ther they could not extend the other portions of education to the people, instead of confining the assistance given to those exclusively of the establishment, he thought they should extend education to the whole of the people, and not exclude the greater portion of them from the benefits of education. This was an assumption which the State did not recognise or encourage, that any education but that carried on by clergymen was at variance with the general principle of our law, and also at variance with the present state of things.—( Hoar, hear.) Another part of the subject was, it was confessed on the part of the friends of the Church, of these formerly connected with the party in power, that there had been a considerable neglect of the education of the people—( Hear, bear), arid that it had not been extended in proportion to the event of population; they had allowed that great flood of population to cover the surface of the land, and had not taken care that education should keep pace with it: Had this really been neglected ? By no means. Not only the Clergy of the Establishment, but Protestant Dissenters were most laudably zealous in giving educa tion, and extending to the people of these countries those doctrines, without which they would have been in a state of uninstructed being. —( Hear, hear.) After _the Protestant Dissenters had done all this—after they had erected some ten thousand places of worship, it would not be just, now, to deprive them of the power of carrying on education, and to say to them the State now engrosses the education of the people, and will not by any means suffer it to be extended, but through the medium of the Establishment. But that plan was not at all view, for it differed not from what had been done by persons of the very highest authority in the country with regard to edu cation. The first large society which was formed wasting the valuable time of the public in unnecessary dis cussions in that House, and the economising of time, which was considered so serious a matter, should not be lost sight of. Mr. PA CKI NGTON presented a petition from a place in Leicestershir e , for the support of the Ecclesiastical EAablishinent in Canada, and praying that the security of the Protestant faith should be provided for. Also a peti tion from the parish of Simonburn, in Northumberland ; to a similar eff,ct. Mr. Ritchie, from the Commissioners of the Northern Light Houses presented papers. Mr. M. PHILLIPS presented a petition from the Com missioners for improving► the town of Manchester, praying for leave to bring in a Bill to enable them to make further improvements in that town.—Referred to the Private Bill Committee. Mr. GRANT presented four petitions from parishes in Inverness-shire, in favour of Church Extension h Scotland. Sir M. WOOD presented a petition from the Society for the Protection of Religious Liberty__ a Society over which several distinguished Members of this House had presided—praying for the removal of the civil disabilities of the Dissenters ; also a petition signed by 300 influential persons in the ward of Cripplegate, praying for a repeal of the Corn-laws. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON presented a petition from a place in the county of Roscommon, against the na : tional system of Education in Ireland; and a petition from a parish in the county of Galway to the same effect. Mr. ROUND presented a petition, praying the House not to sanction any alteration in the existing. Corn-laws. Mr. KELLY presented six petitions from Ipswich, pray ing the House not to sanction any system of national edu cation which is not founded on the Scriptures. Sir GEORGE GREY presented a petition from De vonpert, signed by 3,000 of the inhabitants of that place, praying the House to take the Corn-laws into their imme diate consid?ration, for the purpose of effecting such altera tion! as would ultimately tend to their total abolition. Sir EDWARD CO DRINGTON supported the prayer of the petition. Mr. HUME presented a petition from the inhabitants of B . rentford and it s v i c i n i ty, s i gne d b y 350 i n di v id ua l s , s t a ti n g tat the Corn-la , ,vshad a terrific effect on the population there, by compelling them to sustain life by consuming inferior and spoiled provisions, which produced disease amongst teem ; that factory children, in particular, suffered more injurious effects from the Corn-laws, than from any other Legislative enactments that had taken place, and that such a public robbery as was comprised in those inns, ought not to be continued ; that commerce was shackled by those laws, as on their account the people of this country, could not compete with foreigne rs . Th e petitions prayed early alteration in tease laces, with a view to their tut al reoval. The Hon. Member then presented a petition from Peter head, signed by 702 merchants and manufacturers, and they referred principally to the fact that the general industry of the country was interfered with, and arrested by the stoppage of their foreign trade, and that that was mainly attributable to the Corn-laws.— ( Hear, hear.) That the price of food was unnaturally and unjustly raised in that country, and that, being every way injurious to the trade and commerce of Eng,-- land, the petitioners prayed they might no longer be per mitted to remain unrepealed. He presumed, according to a late resolution of the House, that lie was not permitted to state whether he agreed or disagreed with the sentiments in the petition. for the purposes of educating the youth of the country, was he belived, the British and Foreign School Society, and among those who prominently came forward in promoting that Society was the Duke of Kent, the father of her present Majesty ; but at the head of the subscription list stood the name of George lII. (hear, hear, hear,)—that monarch granted an annual sum of 1001. towards the funds of the British and Foreign Society. That subscription was continued by George IV., by his late Majesty, and was continued even to the present day.—( Hear, hear.) He could not conceive then that a system which excluded the catechism, supported by so many sovereigns —supported by the Sovereign of the present day—he could not conceive why that system should be wrong, and that they should give in to the doc trine now propounded, that no encouragement ought to be given to any system, but that of the most exclusive education For these reasons the Government had been unable to adopt any general plan of education which would found new schools throughout the country upon principles in which both Churchmen and Dissenters might join or were likely to join. He f, r one was not sorry that these efforts for the education of the riving youth had been made ; on the contrary, he rejoiced at it—he rejoiced to see that in the present year the National Society l'ad sent out queries and collected information which would all greatly tend to the improvement of their schools. He equally rejoiced to see the endeavours that had been made in most—he might almost say all of the dioceses in the land. Those endeavours were most praiseworthy, and he was not with out some disposition to flatter himself that the declaration of the Government that they were anxious to promote edu cation among the people, had led to many of those endea vours; at all events, whether that were so or not, be re joiced to see so much zeal and activity upon such an im portant subject. But not being able to adopt either of those plans it appeared to the Government that the best way was to proceed gradually, and in the first place to en deavour to establish some body by which any exertions to be made in the cause of education might be deliberately considered, maturely weighed, and, at last, finally adopted. lie knew that during the last Session the Hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. Wise) had expressed an opinion that there ought to be a Central Board of Educa tion. If it were composed of persons of diffe rent religious persuasions, it certainly would riot be a Board which would command the confidence of the Church, therefore he thought it better that they should form that body, call it Board or Committee, or what they would, not of persons belonging to one party or another, to one creed or another, but of official servants to the Crown, so that it should depend upon the confidence of that House whether the system should be supported or not. He saw that his Noble Friend objected to the plan. as it would be hopeless to attempt to form a Board of different persons who would agree in their opinions, nothing remained but to constitute it of persons who, having been already official - servants of the Crown must always be responsible for their conduct— ( Hear, hear.) He had, therefore, by the command of her Majesty, proposed to the President of the Council that he should be the head of a Board or Committee of Privy Councillors, not more than five persons, who should con sider in what manner the grants of money made by this House from time to time might be distributed. He had therefore addressed a letter to the Marquis of Lansdowne and he had agreed with the other official persons named to undertake, if the House of Commons should make a granthuld for ho necessary that conduct the e m easures which s objects • Now, with re spect to these measures: t akin g a g rant of 20,000 /. the sum voted last year—but he wished to the grant i ncrease d o purpose, for the t o in viw see by 10,000/., making it 30,000/. —%;lat The measure which t were th e measures which would be mo st desirable? would be most desira ble in the first p lace was the este blichment of a goo d normal school._.( Hear, hear.) Whatever might be the religious differences of th e Ch urc h and the British and Foreign School Society there were questions not at all touched by tnelr diff erences, in which persons who had atten ded ver y much to the subject of edu cation would find both of them defective,. and that th ere were modes of instructio n some of which were used in foreign establishments, and others which were practised in establishments in t his country, b y which educa tion had been very much improved, It would therefore be the endeavour of this body to lay the founda tion of a normal school, and to make this normal school as perfect as possible. The four objects to whi c h , generally, it might be said that the education of persons should be directed, would be, first, religious instruction ; secondly, general instruction; thirdly, moral instruction; and, fourthly, habits of industry, and the learning of some trade or occupation.—( Cheers.) All these were matters upon which many suggestions had been made from time to time, upon which many plans had been formed, and upon which, perhaps, there WAS much to he done befor e a perfect 5% stem could be established. But this he might sav, that the instruction hitherto given in many of our schools proceeded upon a false assumption, when it supposed that reading and writing with some of the elements of religious instruction did, in fact, form education.—( Hear, hear.) He thought there ' was a good deal of that shrewd sense which belonged to t him in an objection made by Mr Cobbett to popular ode- Gencral EVANS pre;entcd a petition from West ! minster, pra)ing the House not to renew a practice which was considered a serious blow to the popular party, that of THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY,-EITENING EDITION,-FEBRUARY 13, cation, of which he was a decided enemy. He said, " What is the use of taking a young boy, the son of a la bourer, and teaching him his letters? Give him a cart horse—you will see him go up to a gate, and if he cannot get upon the cart-horse without getting upon the gate he will get upon the gate and then get upon the cart-horse— that is the education for an agricultural labourer." Now, this observation of Mr Cobbett's was not without its sense, because they wanted to teach not only reading and writing, but to inculcate habits of industry and improve the moral disposition —they wanted not merely to have a child who at eight or nine years old knew how to read, and at fifteen or sixteen had utterly forgotten it, but they wanted to instruct a person in the duties of his station—of those duties which he had to perform, both to God and to man, and likewise in the skill which was necessary to enable him to attain that com petency which could alone carry him through life. He thought, therefore, in this respect, that a good Normal school, founded upon the best and most approved systems, would be a very great advantage to the whole of this country, even though it were carried on at an expense of no more than 400/. or 500/. a year. He believed they might have a school of that kind, which would be so useful_which would be so superior to the ordinary methods of education, that those who visited it might after wards introduce in their own neighbourhood many of the rules and practices which they had found so established.— (Hear, hear.) He would not read any part of the letter which he had addressed to the Noble President of the Council, but he would read that part of the reply which announced the Noble Marquis's intention with respect to any plan which this House might be prepared to carry out. The Noble Lord then proceeded to read the letter in which the Noble Marquis expressed his readiness to dis charge his share of the duties of the Board, convinced as he was of the importance of the objects proposed, and of the improbability of their being satisfactorily accom plished without the assistance and superintendence of her Majesty's Government. At the same time, he begged to state at the outset, that the establishment of a Normal School was the most pressing and important of these objects, and as its being the most necessary step to the attainment of the rest; and also the strong conviction which he entertained that it ought to be the positive condition of such an establishment that it should be provided with sufficient teachers to enable it to give such religious instruction as was afforded by the Church of England. The letter concluded thus:—" The children whose parents belong to other religious denomi nations known to prevail against a considerable portion of the country, end who may be desirous, and ought to be enabled to receive spiritual instruction from their own teachers, undsr the authority and coatroul of their own religious denominations, such a system of instruction v.-as indispensable to the benefits which all ought to receive; combining with the most approved species of education, the most proper foundation on which it ought to be based." The reply was, " I am commanded to appiise your Lot d ships- that her Majesty has been pleased to approve of the course you have taken."—( Hear, hear.) Now, supposing such a sum voted by this House, there might be oth er objects provided, should funds be found sufficient by which encouragement might be given to education, as by making grants to the teachers in providing the selection of school books, and distributing them in the country schoolss, and by various other methods promoting the great cause of education.—( Hear, hear.) He (Lord John Russell) had stated what step, he thought ought to be taken on this subject, but having so done, although upon this occasion he had no immediate proposition to make, and probably might not for some time make such proposition, it might be desirable to introduce a Bill upon the subject of education.—( Hear, hear.) With the objections which he stated, and which he considered did prevail asrainst. the establishment of any one system of education, he thought that possibly the best thing that could be done would be by grants, either out of general funds or out of local funds, to he provided for by local rates—to the different existing schools, whether, under the superintendence of the Church, or other bodies—which should receive assistance from those grants from time to time.—( Hear, hear.) He thought by such means Parliament might be able to obtain a general view of the amount of education given, and of the nature of that education, on both of which points there was, as he had stated,at present considerable difficulty.—( Hear.) Ile thought it would be possible, likewise, under such a plan, to introduce schools which should be established either by some peculiar body or by the Guardiansof Unions, for the purpose of infant instruction. He confessed that he did not see, although be had heard it stated, that children from three to seven years of age could receive: any im pressions injurious to the religious faith to lab-kb their parents belonged, if they were to receive general education in common at that early age. He thought that the instruc tion which could be given in the Bble to children, from three to seven years of age, might be given without its being necessary to point out to them the difference be . tween the Established Church and the Indepen dents, or between the Baptists and the Presbyterians.—( Hear, hear.) Perhaps he might be told that it was impossible to have any education given in common, but if it could be done, he was persuaded that Infant schools were among the most useful institutions--( Hear, hear)—and it would be a good foundation for a system of education to provide means by which those infant Schools might be more gene rally established—also providing that where there was a a difference of religious faith, separate schools would be attended from the age of seven years and upwards, though up to that age, the children should meet under one common instructor; this he believed would materially benefit and increase the means of educa tion in this country, in fact by the habit's of mora lity, of control of temper, end of kindness and love to wards one another, which might be taught in these schools, the children might be so improved that after they had received a more general education they would be virtuous and valuable members of society.—( Hear, hear.) Lord Bacon said that ";custom is made perfect when it toeginneth in young years. "—(Cheers.) He (Lord John. Russel!) certainly did conceive that the most simple lessons of re ligion, and the most simple habits of morality, might be taught to children from three to seven years of age, with out raising any of those great points of theological differ ence which had been adverted to.—( Loud cheers.) He had now stated the general views of the Govern. ment with regard to education ; he had stated that it was not the best plan that could be produced—it was not a thoughtless plan, but one that had been brought forward upon mature deliberation, and one which he considered prac ticable in the present state of the country. He thought, looking at the manner in which education was promoted in all foreign countries—on looking at the manner iii which it was rendered essentially necessary across the Atlantic, that the time was come when this country should net remain idle. —( Cheers.) He felt that a plan of combin ed union of education was impossible, but he thought that re plan of, education solely for the Church was exclusive and. intole rable. It was therefore necessary that some plan should be proposed. When he had been proposing plans for different modes of punishment and trial, that it was, incumbent upon them not to leave unfilled th at great waste of instruction and education which would give an opportunity to the youth of the country of learning what their religious and moral duties were ; so that if after wards they should fall into vice and crime, and the Go vernment were obliged to put in force against them the harsher provisions of the law, they might at least say that they had not committed the crime because they were un instructed, but that they did it with a knowledge of their duties towards God and man.—( Great cheering.) Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said he should not have of fered a single observation on the excellent speech of the Noble Lord, had be not stated that the system of educa tion which had been brought forward by the Member for Lancashire had met with signal success in Ireland. Be, Mr. Sergeant Jackson, was fearful that the Noble Lord was under a delusion on the subject, and that he load not read the Reports of the Committees of that House with respect to education in Ireland, because if he had he would have dis Covered that instead of-meeting with signal suc cess, it had entirely failed.—(Cries of " No, no.") He (Sergeant Jackson) would say " Yes, yes," and he would prove it before he sat down. One of the principal objects the Noble Lord had in view was to unite the children of Protestants and Catholics. Had that been effected ? Clearly not. How many Protestant children did the House su pp ose were in the National Schools of Munster? Why, only 146. ( Hear.) How many in Leinster ? Only 598 ; and in Connaught only 277 ; so that the grand total of Protestants receiving education in three out of the four provinces was 'only about nine hundred. Novo, he would ask this Noble Lord whether it was fair in such a state of things to state that the system of education intro duced by the Noble Lord (the Member for Lancashire) had been attended with signal success?—(Hear, hear.) And it appeared further before the Committees of the House of Commons that the schools in those provinces were almost entirely under the controul of Catholic clergymen. —( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) having bean charged with a great number of petitions on this sub ject, felt that he should have been wanting in his duty if lie had allowed the statements of the Noble Lord to pass unnoticed.—( Hear, hear.) He was quite aware that the plan had originated from the best possible motives. He considered that it was most desirable that the Roman Catholic and Protestant children should be united in their education—( Hear, hear)—but still the plan had not suc ceeded. A great outcry bad been raised against the Kil dare-street Society. Now, with respect to that Society, it appeared from the returns that there was a majority of Roman Catholics in the schools of that Society. Even with all these circumstances militating against them, not withstanding all these trials and persecutions to which they were subjected—notwithstanding the difficulty they had in finding inspectors, there were at this moineet upwards of 1,000 schools in connection with the Kildare-street So ciety, the majority of whom were ROMill Catholics, and they had succeeded in keeping them under the most dis advantageous circumstances. With regard to the national system of education, the Protestant Clergy cannot con scientiously give in their adhesion to that system. He begged pardon of the House for thus troubling them, but he felt lie should not have done his duty had lie not en tered into these details.—( Hear, hear.) . Sir ROBERT INGLIS would not be tempted by anything that had fallen from Hon. Members to carry this discussion out of England into Ireland. He thought that it would be sufficient to limit our attention to the sub ject as it had been brought forward by the Noble Lord: His Noble Friend had discussed this subject with his usual temper and talent except on one occasion. He had lost his temper—( Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial benches, which drowned the remainder of the sentence.) He thought he lost his temper when he made use of the term " exclusiveness," to which he was doubtless ex cited by the cheers from that side of the House, when he alluded to the possibility of combining the education of Dissenters and Churchmen. With all that we have heard on the subject, with all th e t racts that have been circulated, not, certainly, exactly by the Noble Lord himself, but with the support and approval of t h o se who were in the habit of supporting the Noble Lord, he felt satisfied, because the scheme contained so little additional mischief. He could never praise his Noble Friend in his political capacity, except that in his plans with relation the Established Church, he had not done the Church so much mischief as he might have done. The Noble Lord repudiates both plaits. He rep repudiates strongly hat system of compulsory education which its admirers would fain introduce into this country in imitation of the Prussian system, and which he jus tl y describes as alien to BURMESE PRIZE MONEY. The Hort. MEMBER then presented a petition from cer tain officers who had been in India, and who complained of the length of time taken in the distribution of the prize money to which they were entitled, and they feared that many of them would be in their graves before they received their shares. CORN-LAWS. Mr. GALLY KNIGHT presented a petition from .be Nottingham Agricultural Association in favour of the present system of Corn-laws. Mr. GIBSON CRAIG presented a petition from Dal keith, praying for the total repeal of the Corn-laws. Mr. EATON presented five petitions from parishes in Cambridge in favour of the present system of Ccrn-laws. Mr. FINCH presented a petition from Walsall, pray:ng for the total repeal of the Corn-laws. Sir H. HAR.DING E presented a petition from Laun ceston, praying the House not to allow any alteration to be made in the existing Corn-laws. Colonel PE RCE VAL moved for a return of the quan tity of corn, beans, and meal imported into this country from Ireland in each year, from 1800 to 1839.—Ordered. Mr. JONES seeing the Noble Lord at the head of the Home Department in his place, wished to ask him if it was the intention of the Government to bring in again the Bill that was thrown out last year, relative to the boundaries of boroughs? Lord J. RUSSELL was very indistinctly heard in the gallery. We understood him to say that the Goverment intended to introduce a bill similar to that of last year, which would only affect those boroughs about which there would be very hale difference of opinion. Mr. PRAED begged to ask the Noble Lord one more question, relative to the correspondence between the Home-office and Mr. Frost, the magistrwe, of Mon mouth, who was appointed one of the delegates to the National Convention.—( Hear, hear.) He did not at all mean to impugn the statement that had been l i made by the Noble Lord, but a very different statement had been put forth by Mr. Frost. Ile conceived that it was necessary that the whole correspondence should be laid before the House. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—After what has taken place the correspondence must be produced. If the Hon. Member ineves for it I shall have no objection. Mr. PRAED—If there were any intention of taking. ulterior steps in the matter, he would postpone any notice of motion at present. Sir ROBERT PEEL—Perhaps the Noble Lord will now be prepared to notify to the House the course he proposes to pursue on Tuesday next, when the motion for an inquiry into the Corn-laws, to be had by taking evidence at the bar comes on. It is a question of very great importance, and it is also of much importance that the House.- should be informed as early as possible the course the Government in tends to take, so that the House may be enabled to give their attention to it a day or two before it comes on. Perhaps if the Noble Lord is not now pre pared to give an answer to the question, he will be so on Thursday. Lord JOHN RUSSELL.—I would prefer giving an answer to the question of the Right Hon. Baronet on Thursday. Mr. R. PALMER begged to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the returns which had been made use of by the Hon. Member for Kendal, on the first night of the Session, were intended to be laid on the table of the House? Mr. P. THOMSON said that in two or three days the returns would be completed, and then there would be no objection to their being produced. Oa the motion of Sir R. INGLIS, the Library Com mittee was re-appointed. On the motion of Mr. HUME, a return was ordered of the expenses attending Railroad Surveys in Ireland. EDUCATION. Lord J. RUSSELL presented certain papers relating to Education. In moving that they be laid upon the table, the Noble Lord said that he was anxious, as so much dis cussion had recently taken place on the subject, to explain, though without going into detail either as to the state of education on the plan that might be proposed,—to state generally the outline of the views of her Majesty's Go vernment on this question, because, whatever objections might be made to their views and intentions—to whatever opposition they' might be exposed—it was certainly desirable that the opposition should be grounded on what they really intended, and not on any fanciful suggestions of those who chose to say " such and such are the intentions of the Government," and then launch out into the most violent objections against that supposed plan.—( Cheers.) He ( Lord J. Russell) was one of those who thought there still existed a lamentable want of education, especially among the poorer classes of the community—( Hcala hear) — and he had thought it his duty to represent that conviction to her Majesty, and to call her Majesty's attention to this subject. The present state of education might be gathered from the various reports that had been made to this House, from the debates which had occurred both in this and the other House of Parliament, and from the publications of different Societies who were engaged in the useful and benevolent task of promoting education in this country. It resulted from all these statements, however much they differed, that there was still a considerable portion of the people without any religious instruction whatever. It ap peared from the reports of the chaplains of our goals, that there were a great many who had not received even the most elemental notion of instruction ; and it further appeared, even from the statements that might be made by those who told us that nothing more was required to be done, that the education at present given was of a very defective nature, and though bad in quantity, is was still more objectionable in qua lity. The statements with respect to the amount were an nexed. He believed it had been stated upon the authority of Lord Brougham, and from tables of returns presented to the House, that about 1,270,000 young persons were receiving education in that country. It had been stated very lately at a public meeting that there were no less than 1,500,000 persons who were receiving education in connexion with the parishes. In these statements there was a very great discrepancy, and he did not think it right to lay any very great stress on any returns which lie had been able to collect upon the subject. He would refer more especially to an attempt made by him immediately after the recess to procure returns from the Poor-law Commissioners, and they certainly did not produce such accurate results as to make them worthy the consideration either of the Government or o Parliament, as forming the foundation of any measure likely to be adopted on the subject.—( Hear, hear. ) But judging only by the general evidence received even by the Committee that had sat upon the subject of the edu cation of the poorer classes last year; in these reports it was adverted to, and could not well be denied, that there was still a very considerable want of instruction in that coun try. Whethcr he referred to those nations of the continent which had lately taken a part, by means of their Government, on the subject of education, or whether he referred to the United States of America, there was some reason to say that greater and more organized efforts had been made upon that subject in other countries than in their own, which they boasted was a free and enlightened country.—( Hear, hear. ) Neither was it his intention to state ally of those plans, or compare them with that which it might be deemed proper to adopt in Great Britain. There was an obvious distinction between what could be done in that country and others. In other coun tries the Government had from the beginning undertaken the task of educating the people, finding that it was in a very low state, and had established certain laws to which all the people were obliged to conform, and to which every school and institution subjected itself. So, likewise, in the United States of America ; from the very:commencement of emigration in the greater part of the States, no sooner was there a small village, or a few inhabitants collected toe-e -ther, than the establishment of a school formed a part' of their political and economical arrangement.—( Hear. ) It was obvious that a Government attempting- any system of education in that country would find the ground in a very different state, because it had been oc , upied in great part by those societies and institutions which bad voluntarily undertaken the task of educating the people. They would find it occupied in a certain part, certainly by the Established Church, and in other parts by the \Vesloyans and other Dissenting Societies, who ga ve e d u - cation according to their own religious principles. Hear, hear.) For these reasons it would not be possible to establish any system of education which should at once supersede those recognised and established modes, and even were it allowed by Parliament generally to be a much better system of education than any other, it could not be expected immediately to supplant and come in the place of those various schools at present in existence ; in short, no general system could be introduced without doing violence to the habits and feelings of the people of that country. Such a plan was unsuited to their country, and was likely to be unsuccessful if attempted. There was another rea son which he much regretted to dwell upon, and which made it improper to come to any agreement as to a genoral plan of education in that country. —( Hear.) Those who of late years had undertaken the task of educa tion had done so either on behalf of the Church or of the peculiar sects to which they belonged, or in connexion with a Society to which he (Lord J. ft usselphad for many ye - ars the honour tobelonga the British and Foreign School Society, which did not profess to teach the children the principles of any peculiar religious denomination. The main dis tinctions were between the Church and the British and Foreign School Society. The Church, not only Ecclesi astical but Lay persons belonging to it—contended that they should not assist in any place of education which I was not immediately under the superintendence of the 839 the constitutional rights and to the personal feelings of the people. This scheme would be found to be a fallacy and an impossibility. He ( Sir Robert Inglis) would take this opportunity of exposing one fallacy into which the Noble Lord had fallen, and which was not cot:fined to the Noble Lord alone ; he meant the perpetually con founding education with instruction. He had committed himself by saying that knowledge, unless it was accompa nied by religion, was an unmitigated evil. Of that he felt convinced, while he was equally assured of the superior instruction that was to be derived from education on Christian principles. Here he came to the great point advanced by his Noble Friend. He would contend, that as long as there was a Church, that was &source from which the people ought to have instruction, and not from that which his Noble Friend said would be brought under the consi deration of the country. He did not think that the Noble Lord had devised the mode of raising the required funds. In that respect he did not think the Noble Lord had done the good he might have done, and yet that was in his power. On the one hand, he does not give the extent of education he might have accomplished, but on the other hand he does not waste the public money. He apprehended that the only difference between the plan now proposed and the other was this—the plan now is, that the funds are to be filtrated through the hands of the Lords of the Treasury, and the only difference was that by the other plan they only had the power of giving directions to a Committee of the National Society, or of be Society of Bri tish and Foreign Schools. This was the only reason he had for expressing his opinion to the House, for there did not appear to him to be a necessity for attempting to make any alteration in the plan. Great efforts were mak ing now in matters connected with education, and by men entitled to every respect. More success had attended their efforts last year than had attended those they had been takin g for the last ten years, and he t rus t e d a l ong time would elapse before a stop ;vas put to those efforts by the introduction of any novel plan. Mr. WYSE wished, before the termination of the debate, to offer some remarks on education, and to give his express opinion on a subject in which he had long taken an interest. He congratulated the lio:ise and the country at large at the step which hal at last been taken. He ( Lord J. Russell) had truly stated that this country was far behind other countries of Europe in the nuxber of schools and in the quality of the edu cation given to the people, whenhe said that only one-fifth of the population of this country were educated, and for a proof of the truth of what he stated he need only refer to returns before the House, which afforded sufficient evidence of the gross state of ignorance in which a great proportion of the people were immersed, and which from an early period ought to have engaged the attention of this House. When he reflected on the miserable trifles and the con- temptible personal altercations which year after year occu pied their time, to the neglect of this great national ques tion, he was utterly astonished. This was a subject which had engsged the attention of the whole of Europe, and yet had beeis totally neglected in this country ; and he there • fore received with exultation the notice of the Noble Lord. The Church had not interfered on this sub ject to the full extent that bad been anticipated, and therefore it was necessary that it should be taken up by others. He, however, submitted to the House, that there was no intention of forcing on the country the joint system 'of education. The intention was to allow every locality to introduce that system most congenial to its own peculiar views ; and that such system of intellectual education should be given as prevailed in their districts ; and if this were not done, it was not likely to obtain from the Govern ment of the Legislature the support of any grant of money. Ho (Mr. Wise) certainly considered the joint system of education to be the best, but that was in iegard to particu lar differences of religious opinion, and not to the general principle. Tale country would be inferior to every other country in the world, unless that joint system were intro- 1 auced which prevailed generally abroad. In other countries there was a mutual forbearance in matters of religion which, it was here said, it was impos sible to attain. In Russia and Prussia, as this House well knew, such a system existed. In the schools of Germany, the joint system of education was generally in troduced. Were we to believe, that in this country, peo ple's minds were more narrow, that they were.more "trem blingly alive" to the danger of their religion, than they were in Continental kingdoms ? He (Mr Wise) had him-, self seen Roman Catholics and Protestants in the humble elementary schools, receiving religious instruction together from their teachers, in their several religions. They had commenced the same plan recently in Switzerland. He was, therefore, entit!ed to assert that uniting Catholics and Protestants in a cours3 of instruction in the same schools together was not altogether attended with insuperable dif ficulties. tie was not one of those who would stand up against it, if he saw a better plan about to be introduced, if be saw such a plan he was perfectly willing to support it. He had, howevesi clearly and de cidedly stated his opinion, both in Ireland and here, as the Member of a Committee of the House, to he in favour of the joint system. In every part of the Continent schools bad been established on that system. They might be under one red, but he insisted there should be such schools, and he had heard nothing advanced against the joint system but what was the result of prejudice. This system, Mr. Wise contended, was not a - compulsory system. The compulsory system of Austria was, he urged, rather a foreign system introduced into that country, than a system of their own, and there was no necessity for it whatever ; but it was not true that there childten were required to go to the schools of teachers of other religions. The, compulsory system spoken of in this House was a mere aggravation on the part of the speakers. The Noble Lord only proposed to 'establish a recognised system. The Board, who were to have the regulation of the whole, was to consist of members of the Privy Council, instead of other parties : but it never was intended to force educa tion on any class of the people. It was to be overlooked by some body to whom the power was to be alone delegated. But he should wish to state to the Noble Lord that this body ought to be provided not merely with the distribution of the funds, but that a good system of inspection ought to acoompany jr. _._ Was It intended to be thus accompanii:d? - A Board would have this great advantage, which time Treasury did not possess : the Treasury could not exa mine into bills And trifling details, as a Board could, and the Treasury would nut have a proper responsibility to this House, a portion of whose duties under the proposed sys tem would betotake care that proper teachers of schools were established in the country; for, unless there were teaches s who were competent scholars, education could not be accomplished as it ought to be, and to secure such men considerable funds would be required for their support. It was not to be expected that young men competent to the office of education, would engage in it unless adequate re muneration were within their reach. In Ireland, for instance, at the present moment, education was not of the same efficiency in many schools, because the masters of those scl v iocls were accustomed to leave them for places where they could receive a better pecuniary rc- muncration—so that to secure efficient service there must be fair and adequate remuneration. By masters thus re warded education would be carried on with advantage, and be productive of the greatest benefit to the comxiunity at large. If they do not believe that to be the cause, why should not those books be as much liked, and why should they not answer those purposes as well as if they were distributed under another system ? In order that this Legislature should be popular it must be founded on prin ciples that will give satisfaction. In Prussia, it is said that those checks are adopted, but if so, they are so constituted that no bad consequences attach to them. All my experi ence on this subject has shown me that this line of conduct is, although others say to the contrary, so satisfactory that it meets with universal approbation. In that Gem-en - tent they are left to their own judgment with regard to the books they choose. In adopting this course there is not in Prussia that direct influence that is said. He was of opinion that when this system of educa tion was introduced into the country, it would have the same beneficial result.—( Hear, hear.) In other Protes tant states there is not these bad results from a system of intermixing those of different creeds ; they are all joined in unity. In German} are they worse than we are ? ( Hear, hear.) Their records of crimes are not more than ours. If this be the effect of this joined system in the Protestant States of Germany, why may not we expect the same happy effects from it in this country ? It is not to education, but to want of education that we can trace those general deficiencies in the morals of the peoplc.—( Hear, hear.) It is this we deprecate. In proportion as they were every day extending the franchise, in proportion as they were creating new wealth, they could not properly direct that wealth but , by instruction, which should be given to every part of the land, and not left to the contingencies of benevolence. Ho should like to see a proper system of taxation for this pur pose in tie country. The time, however, had not come for that, but he congratulated the House and the country on the prospect of vindicating itself from the stain which had so long rested upon it, from our deficiency in educa tion as compared with other nations.—c Hear, hear.) Lord ASHLEY wished to put a question to the Noble Lord, the Secretary of the Horne Department. He wished to ask whether it was the intention of her Ma jesty's Government to continue the grant of 20,000/. to the National School Society and the British and Foreign School Society, for the purpose of school building ? He was not in the House at the time the Noble Lord began his speec;. and therefore did — not hear the allusions trade either to himself or the sentiments delivered at the meet ing over which he had the honour to preside a few days ago. When the proper time again arrived, he should be ready to support the sentiments theft uttered, and make clear the plans of education which they thought essential to the well being of the country.— ( Hear, hear.) He hoped they would not consider that he was bound to the approval of the plan proposed by the Noble Lord, which, with its Presidentship of the Privy Council, its Privy Councillors, its normal schools, and teachers, was full of the post serious and alarming übjectious.—(Tory cheers.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in reply to the question put by the Noble Lord, said the grant would be to the same amount as before. It was under consideration whe ther there should be a grant to the British and Foreign School Society, but it would not amount to 20,0001. at all events. Mr. GLADSTONE wished to know whether the Board was to be composed entirely of persons who should be unpaid, and could hold other offices ? He understood the Noble Lord to say they were to be Priv y Councillors, but he did not understand him to explain whether they would be persons actually holding other offices : —( Hear.) There was another question of much more importance, and relating to the most vital part of the subject. The Noble Lord had given no intineit ion as to the rules by which the proposed Board were to be guided in the distribution of the funds, and he asked whether the House would make grants in aid of schools where no form, or any form whatever of religion wAs taught?—( lhar, hear.) The House was aware that the Hon. Member opposite was an ac ti ve mem ber of a Society lattly instituted, and term e d th e C entra l Society of Education, the general object of which was sup posed to be to attain whether by di rect cr c i rcu i tous means to an universal establishment of schools, in which the busi ness of religion should b e k e pt wholly apart from the general business of education. He wished to know whether it was understood that in the case of schools where no form of religion was taught the Board was to bo free to make grants of money from whatever sums the House might grant ? —( Tory cheers. ) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, with regard to the first I question, he should say, that at present the Members of the Board would be all persons holding other situations, and certainly no salary would be attached to them. With regard to the other question be did not anticipate that the Board would have any funds by which they could make any allowance to the schools. If there should be any grant, either from the general funds of the State, or locally, to particular schools, he should propose to embody that pro vision in the Bill, which could form pert of the discretion of the Board. Mr. GLADSTONE thought he had not succeeded in making the Noble Lord comprehend his question. It was unimportant whether the grants were made to schools or school-houses—at present the grants were made to school-houses; but the schools were conducted on schools certain principles. lie wished to ask whether the Board cou ld make grants either to schools, or for the building of in which any or no form of religion might be taught ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL could only give the sam e answer as before. It was immaterial, as the Hon. Me tes ber had said, whether for schools or school-houses. tie did not consider any grant which was allowed to be made would be applied to schools or school-houses, unless part of it was applied to the schools built by the National Saciety, or the British and Foreign Society. If there were any other schools, it would be necessary to state that on bringieg the Bill on the subject. Mr. WYSE said the Hon. Member opposite had re ferred to a Society with which be (Mr. NV.) and several other Members were connected. Whatever opmione iadi vidual might have expressed, the Society had made no declaration.—( Hear.) Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN expressed his entire concurs-m e° in the scheme submitted by the Noble Lord. His wily regret was that the contemplated grant was so rniserahl small. To talk of the 30,0001. to meet the deficience o education in this country did seem ridiculous ; it appe - a; in evidence before the Committees of this House, up_ ported by the testimony of private individuals, that in ninny parts of the country one-fifteenth of the population did not receive education, whereas there ought to be at least ore seventh of the population at school. Arriving, therefore, at the conclusion that not one half of the children were educated at all, to say nothing of the imperfect education given to others, he could not conceive that the grant of 30,0001. would have any beneficial effect. He hoped that part of the scheme would be re-considered, and that when the estimates came before the House the larger grant would be proposed. As an Irish Member, he should cheerfully agree to a vote of 200,000/.—( Hear. hear.) Mr. G OUL BURN presumed, before the Noble Lcril called on the House to coma to any vote with teapot this alteration. ho would be prepared to lay on the tabl h e of the House a definite rule, by which the Board would tire' guided in the distribution of these funds. If this plan was to achieve an extensive change in the mode of edueathosr in this country, it could not be reasonable to expect tilt House to come to any opinion without having distinctly laid on the table the principles on which they meant to wit. Lord DUNGANNON wished to put a question to the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had stated that a greet, but not to the same amount as formerly would be made to I the British and Foreign School Society. He wished to ask - whether or not it is intended that this should ba the lest I year of any grant whatever ?—( Hear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL'S reply was quite inaudible in the gallery. Lord SANDON understood that the Normal school s i was to conduce towards religions as well as secular instrue. tion.—( Lord John Russell expressed his assent.) He un derstood that in some way or other it was to be connected is ith the Church of England. The point he wished to as certain was, if there was to be a system of religious instruc-* Lion in the Normal school, what guarantee was there for the sort of religious instruction to be afforded—whethe r it would be connected with the religion of the Church or not—or whether the guarantee existed in the appointment of the Privy Councillors? That point had not been clea:ly described, and it was most important that it should be ascei taieed.—( Hear, hear. ) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he had taken this early opportunity of stating to the House the ge nera l views which Government entertained in consequence of the misconception which had prevailed, he wished before the House consented to any vote that it should be in. formed of the exact course which was intended to be pur sued. Now, the papers which he had presented informed the President of the Council of the wish of her Majesty that a Board should be formed, and declared the general condition upon which he would undertake it. lie con ceived it would be proper that the President of the Coun cil should meet the other Members of the Committee, and that they should draw up something on which this House was to proceed. The Hon. Member for Liver po.,l asked how the instruction in the doctrines of the Church of England was to be conducted. That was ono of the points on which the Board, when it met, would have to deliberate. He should suppose there certainly must be a Clergyman of the Church of England to superintend instruction in the doctrines of the Church of England. Sir ROBERT PEEL said it was necessary that this point siieuld be perfetly clear, and that the 11 0: should have distinct information—( Cheers)—hecause if they made a vote merely en the understanding that, here after tho Board was to decide what principles should go veris ail education in the principles of the Church of England, they were giving the widest discretion to the Board. The proper time for discussing this, no doubt, would be when the proposal was made fur . a grant of money, and it would be perfectly open to this side of the House, if the explanations were not sufficient, or the discretion too wide, to take the course which he (Lahr R. Peel) should take, and reserve the power of ob jecting to the grant altogether.—(hear, lifeir.) He did not expect that the Noble Lord would have entered 1 into any explanation of the views of Government, because I the whole of the notice which he had given was to present papers relating to education. Ho (Sir R. Peel) tainly was surprised at this mode of proceeding. He was mite afraid that his plan was open to wider objection s than oar the niece statement of the Noble Lord it might , appear to he, from the assent given to ikbysomegentlem en who had entertained views with respect to general educa tion from which he totally dissented.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord proposed to constitute a Board exclusively o f persons in official situations. If thei e evere to have Lee superintending power over the education of the country he should entertain serious doubts on the subject. (Hear, hear.) He should object to giving to a Board corn posed exclusively of official men, an d t h erefore of party men, any superintendence over g enera l education, ( Hear, hear.) One Honourable Member, in giving his assent to the plan, said that it was entirely satisfacto r y to him. Another lion. Member also said that it wns satis factory to him, but spoke of some gra n t o f 200,000/a year to be placed under the controul of this Board. H e (Sir Robert Peel) must say that a grant amounting to that sum must imply on the part of the Board a controul. ing power over the education of this country.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord. its the first part of his speech, mentioned an objection which he ( Sir Robert Peel) never heard before. He seemed to labour under en apprehension which, so far as he (Sir Robert Peel) knew, was totally without foundation.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord . appeared to entertain an apprehension that there was a design on the part of somebody in lb e state to interfere with the freedom of education. He ape_ peered to be under the apprehension that there were p ee _ sons who intended to propose that the Established Church should have absolute power over the education of thee people, and that the people, though dissenting from the. Established Church, should be compelled to receive its in.. struction. Ile could only say for himself, that he would. oiler the most strenuous opposition to any attempt to vitae. late the perfect liberty of education. At the meetin g t he was present at, this was contended for, three the Members of the Church of England shoeid enjoy that perfect liberty of education whichthe.tyo insist ee st i con tent others should enjoy. This they also c l a i med for themselves the right to do, namely, by volunt ary votes ba form schools in connection with the Church, and upon it as an essential condition of education in those schools that the children instructed in them should he brought up in the principles of the Established Church. (Cheers.) He apprehended the Noble Lord would not dissent from that. The members of th e . E stablished Church claimed for themselves that right which the Ro man Catholics exercised—which the Di ssenters of every denomination exercised, and which it was perfectly right they should exercise, viz, that education being free' and the liberty of instruction having been established, the members of the Church of England should enjoy that liberty for themselves. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) At the meeting which he attended those were the principles contended fur. The Noble Lord appeared to apprehend I that the House of Commons were inclined to restrict the vote for education exclusively to instruction on certain principles. Now, he apprehended that when the Noble Lord last year proposed a grant of 20,0001. for education, it was perfectly well known to the House of Commons tha t instruction upon the principles of the Established Chur c h was not a necessary condition. He (Sir Robert Peel) must say, after the assent that had been given to that grant, and after the little opposition it received, he thought those apprehensions which the Noble Lord . see h m e e a d o t o o rs i e nt o i- f mate to-night, were rather groundless, for in did the to the. the lust year the House of Coinm e o a ns certain conditions, hadeth either raised to give public money for the prepared, on construction of school-houses, not a necessary part. of the Established Church was grant this year, da in which school-houses exclusive education in the doctrines the the apprehension in t Last year that was done, il founded on similar principles, N a ob i l e therefo re Lord'e• a d t , there was an intention toiagrefuasre Person to compel educ - sign on the part of st a ill What were ' Noble Lords apprehension he the grounds of the o tion on the were eves . heard such apprehensions- enter principles of the an N y E t stablished Church ? knew not, but n e renehter and cricket' " Hear, hear."), • . be f ore .__, • tarnen I ed to understand from the Noble Lord w as What he wished this—whether this ; Board of Privy Councillors and pe rsons. o fficial cuthority were to discharge the functions a u , having Treasury had hitherto di charged, with regard to the propriation of those fundsy The principles of grants lie' been this—to encourage that which, alter all, it was th e object to encourage, viz., voluntary local contributions for the purposes of education.---( Hear, hear.) That Was the principle that had pervaded their grants. They had sa i d __ We will not take on ourselves the charge of edueett on, but we will encourage others locally interested in th e la s e .. servation of peace—interested in the protection of property but above all, interested in the moral improvement of their fellow.croatures—we will encourage them, by gran ts f rom time to time, to exert themselves, proportioning our ad vances to the sum to be received.—( Hear.) H e they did not mean to depart from that principle ;• but they adhered to it, did the Noble Lord th e Treasury was to have the distribution of that p ortion of the funds, or that the Board was to discharge the duty performed by the House ? I n an an sv . er which the N stile Lord gave to a question proposed to him he spoke of there being a vote for the British and E:lucation Society: the Noble Lord said nothin g o f: l g tl tional education.—( Some one here interrupted the Ri,rt. Hon. Baronet by an observation which was n o t bear,i-in the gallery.) If it were an unintentional omissi on, he ``` very glad of it, because lie hoped, if there were t o b e a ti a ls lic vote, the National Society would not be excluded -- the benefit of it. The questionwhich he w ou ld wish to. sk upon that head was this, whether or no the Treasury was to exercise the control over the appropriation o f the were, or whether the appropriation of the funds was t o b e placed her t) e th ° oP ft