The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-23 00:00:00

The committee is.speaking of the Canada market? . I was told when I came here, that the red pine timber, which I shipped last year, was as good as Memel timber. Is there much red, pine timber shipped from Quebec? The proportion of red pine timber' shipped from Quebec is very large. .Can y ou state in what proportion? I should think in the proportion of a fourth ; .. have been in the habit for sometime of shipping for the -London market, and I h ave, r• a .v s ery seldom s hi ppe d any w hi te p i ne t i m b er. . H it not b een i n the ha bi t o f yo u r house, to con fi ne i tse lf to t h e shi p pi ng o f t h e Test des cr i ption of timber from America to London market? I was ordered to hiy_ a that w hi ch would be most advantageous in the London market. s the timber trade contributed much to clear the country? It has certainly. tMrThonias Morris, called in - ; and examined. . iat situation do you hold? lam surveyor general. re you not directed to prepare a report for the custornt, respecting the man ner of, taking the duty upon deals? Yes. was it exclusively on deals that you were to report ? On deals and battens. Not on timber'? No.' tsb l iave You th a t re p ort w ith you ? I h ave not ye t fi n i s h e d it ; b u t I h ave th e - les of the calculation with me. • Have y ou f oun d i t to be practicable, without any mater i al d i f fi cu l ty i n t h e col lection of the revenue, to adopt the principle of taking-the duty on the cubical contents? There would be some difficulty in it at first, I think. Can you suggest to the committee any change in thepresent system"of collect ing the duties on deals, that would make those duties bear more equally on deals of different descriptions than they do at present ? NOne other than by cubic measure, or by a scale o f th e l engt h s an d t hi c k ness a nd w id t h s . hav e , you th oug ht o f such a graduated scale, as you could submit to the consi deration of the committ,..e? I have not. Ifa graduated scale was mach in the following manner, that no alteration was Made in the width of the dcils, but in place of all deals under three inches and a ',tarter being considered in one class, they were divided into two ; and that all deals t t n : eight feet t o twent y i n , l engt h b e i ng cons id ere d as a c l ass , a n d di v id e d, i n t o " , "would such a system be attended with much increased difficulty to the reve ""d e officer, or in conven i ence t o th e i m p or t er ? Certainly not to the revenue officer Could should thi n k no t to t h e i n i po tt er . i 4 0 Q" - 14 Y °4 -sdgg,est to the committee any better mode of collecting the duty, so Mons Ina ke It bear mere equa4 than it does at present, upon the difii:rent (Innen i cub of weals? Ido not apprehend that the system of charging the duties by t Measurement would be very troublesome ; and I do not know you can hit u p on a mor e e q u it a bl e mo d e o f c h arg i ng th e d u ti es . Could you charge it equally so upon what you 'called deal ends? Yes. • Are you aware of any objection there is'to its being so charged upon deal ends ? 4 11 not aware of any; so far as regards the revenue certainly not. yoU stat e t o th e comm it tee t h e s y s t em Y ou wou ld pr o pose to adopt, in measuring the cubic con t en t s o f d ea l s ? 1 a pp re h e nd I can answer that question Onl y , by saying that deals of certain diMensions must be piled together, so as to T nable the officer to ascertain how many there are of each description ; when that• done, the thing is as simple as possible.' After the piles when so measured were taken asunder, no means would then remain to check their contents, in the event of any fraud being practised with the uni - Connivance of the officer? After the deals - are delivered out of ; the custody of the officer and separated, there would be no means of identifying them, but the Eaine difficulty occurs now, after the account is taken by the officer and the deals separated, under the present system. d Are y ou not of opinion that it would materially facilitate the collect i ng o f the There, ifa certain scale were established with' more gradations than at present exists? re. would be the same difficulties if. the duties were laid on by scale, as if by Cubic Measure. Then it is your opinion that no material inconvenience would arise, either to the trader or to the revenue, from a system of collection founded strictly upon the P r inciples of cubic measure? No material , inconvenience certainly. tol3o you think it w o u ld b e a d van t ageous to t h e revenu e, if d ea l en d s li a bl e t o th e duty, we re re d uce d-f rom e i g ht f eet to s i x f eet ? Certainly, it would be advan teous to the revenue 13 0 you not believe that, in consequence of the length being fixed at eight feet, 'any cargoes consisting of deal ends exclusively, ate brought to this country? Yes, I believe so. Do you b e li eve t h at t h ose are Out to that s i ze, f or t h e purpose of coming in tinder the low duty? I have reason for thinking so. [Adjourned till to-morrow, at one 'clock. Nartis, 27 die Februarii, 1821. The Right Honourable THOMAS WALLACE, in the chair. Mr. James Young, called in; and examined. - IN what line of business are you engaged at present? As a broker, in the dis posal of timber from the north of Europa and the Colonies. llow long have you been engaged i n th a t li ne o f b us i ness ? Up war d s o f thi r ty p r obably in the timber, from the north o f 'E uro p e p art i cu l ar l y; f rom th e C o l on i es e° l ibly not more than fifteen years. teall4ld ve you any information to give:to the committee on the state of the timber g a e generally? I have: The supplies from the north of Europe, considering. tia t n s t' t 4 ( ... Yrussia, Sweden and Norway, as included,. and from. the Colonies, at the the con 7e , are much larger than by any possibility can.be consumed in this country : conceillettition, therefore, that is constantly excited is destroying both. trades. I tha n it • ' the result of along experience, that if the supply-was more , interrupted Pru s i Is f rom Norway, a good trade in British ships might be supported xrom I ussia, 's'4, Sweden; , and our Colonies; it is the contiguity of Norway, with its . state. pabilitv of supply, that constantly keeps our market in a feverish and depressed p 4l : great prejudice has existed the timber imported from the Colonies, tottleolarly the yellow pine timber;' that prejudice is gradually subsiding ; and with ts -8 1 ) ,et to the red pine timber, it iS, by many competent judges, conside!-eda . s good our the thnber from Prussia ; the conelnsion that I drawfrom these premises that Colonies would be equal to a supply of all the useful and necessary wood that 4 - s ti nted in thi s cou n try i n the progress o f t i me. l am not aware t h at l ean give call, general imformation, more than I have new stated ; the timber from the of Europe, undoubtedly, may be had cheaper . and better; put the two trades I ;;"t exist togetherin their present.statc, the one or.the other must be givtn up. ti n% nat is the general price of Baltic timber in this market at present? Of Memel w e b "' front 61. ss. to 61..05. per load. 2 1. at is the price of the yellow pine timber from the Colonies? Tram 31. e s. INTh . a t Is the price of Riga timber? 61. 15s. to 71. There is an unusually short Uponthis season f r o m M emel and from Ri ga. e duty upo n . B a lti c timber bump at present 31. ss. -and there being no duty ; American ti m b e r, if s s . was taken'' off the duty upon Baltic timber, and il iee a id on the importation' of American timber, .would that, in your opinion, pro . - I )il qi a nY alteration in the state of rue market ? I think it would go to the aunt kiln i t of the timber from the - Colonies; I know that it does not upon the average ee ss• l load the proceeds. th s • ° t that state of the market produced by an overtrading which has taken place 4 ,71 11 1 , - ) ., the last two Years, and in some degree by a greater importation, in con 'eQr,-"ee of an expectation that a`cluty would be laid on American timber ? A large s keptf consumption has taken place in the timber trade, and fewer stocks have ` 1 ' 4 1),,, on hand from the uncertain state of the duties ; ,it has been usual for the r espe ct merchants t o h o ld a l arge stoc k o f ti m b er , b u t f r o m the uncertainty with „ th,, t° the duties, they have constatity boughtTrom hand to mouth. -4 nhe s :.' re R•large stock presenCon hand olds. There is a large stock of American A 411 1 . ' ''l is in the hands of the importers. - hi ll ' e ,tica ti °ll ,jnform the committee what is the extent of the present stock of North --a e rK a ct, t imbe r in the .kingdom? I believe about 30,000 loads in the London AO 3'o • oat , t , l leak to the stock in the kingdom generally ? I cannot., t-- mes d„ , '" ° Portion does 30,000 loads bear to the consumption of that species of ir wit p re ; r e utg the lastyeer in the London Market? . I su ppose about tivo.thirds. agi ne nt there is eight months supply of thattimber in the market t ? I should 0. . f r !thi n °4l th - Wa lt period ma y a f r e s h sup pl y be exPeeted from America? Within ree to tour mo n th s . ket er ;,, t ' i when the fresh supply arrives, there -will be a stock remaining in the mar t° four months supply.' Yes, ' I apprehend there will be. "co n ) tr i consid er.that an i excessive . stock'? I do, because the supply is capable - hat wou n i ui ng up to the month of [December) Sept'ember; and I am now stating qua_notity. d come within four months; we should have three or four times that 1,1-95 0 3(2 11 think I° a n Probability bd . :ire [Decernberl September. the stack at present in hand excessiVe, it appearing that it will r four mnnthYou s beyond the commencement of the new supply ? I do. is that the prejudice 3 against the American yellow pine timber in this 1,04 ,rninishing ? It is. 4.4 ) ,„ r . have stated tbs. , . the pa - ice of Baltic timber is at - present double the price of an yellow pine? It is so. a nd - l i v e the n do you reconcile' the-opinion, that when the prejudice. is subsiding,. Is nu , w ,i re the differenc e of price is double, a duty of ss. and a reduction of fis.. snt:rtl.l;mnihliate the American trade? Chiefly; I-believe, -from the apprehension bh~,ll-!etl, or the expectation which may be entertained, of a reduction of duty timber from the north of Europe. ta lt ne question is put upon the supposition of .ss. being taken off the one, and ss. t: toni t ., l . th e o th er ? •'Fhere-is a loss now equal to fift een s hilli ngs a l oa d o n t h e i mport . America ; if a further prohibition is :iut: on of ss. it will make a loss of 20s. thi tt ' .. l4 state that y ou h a V e b een acquainted with the timber trade for the. last. I ,: ) yeaies; state to the committee what were the relativ e p r i ces o f B a l t i c,ap d NiTcan timber in the years 1809 and .1810? As nearly as my recollection ~des me t o state i t, one-third. nlo ` . ! -s not th e pr i ce of that period Of Baltic timbe r f rom t we l ve to thirteen pounds • i e ,...t e. and the price o f Ai ner l ian yellow })ine from ten to eleven p oun ds-i• • My ction only gives me about-nine pound s ;. I. think the Am er i can timber was abbot Then p oun d s , b ut I Cannot speak to particulars. n if th e p r i ce of America n ti m b er was then 91.- and the pric e o f that altic 131. : time there was a. considerable consumpt i on o f American yellow pine; 1 1 , 0,1. 1 0 t in ? t the difference double, ought not the consumption to be greater-in pro _ .4t th p ersuaded, that It wpnlil be greater in proportion if the trade believed b e ind the c ties f ront the north of Europe would:remain the same then they • 11 will n o,eed to purchase large:y at the p h esent prices of !lois a;ticle * , but as it. eaves tak e the smallestquantities l ich they can dispose of, which necessarily in th e hands of the rtrsNu‘c.t.a stock .asite ,is incapable of sustaining, /. 1.. we are constantly pressing in the market for slie a not the d-epreciation which has taken place within the last three years, in THE first cost of the ship, was or per ton . . 17 10 10 No. 2. A Statement of the expenses and earnings of the said ship, on a voyage from Shields to London, 1819. L S. D. To disbts. atNeweastle, including fitter's bill for cargo 445 12 4 Do. London, sale duty, commission, men's wages,&c. 357 It) 4 Insurance on ship 6,6001. a' 14- gs. per cwt. and policy 90 15 0 Contra Cr. By amount of sale of 426-1 ch. of Wallsend coals, at 415.-9 d, a' 41s. 9d. . . . . , Balance lost on the voyage, alth6ugh there is no insurance on the cargo of coals _ . No. 3. On a voyage from' London to Quebec; and back to London, .1819. . disbursements at London outwards . Do: at quebec . . Do. at London, inwards . . Postage bill .. ~ Broker's account . . . Insurance on 6,6001. a' 4gs. . . Do. on freight'l,6ool. a' per cent. . I . Policy duty . . • . . • Wear and Tear for one year, a' 10 per tent. L. S. 11.. . 279 16 6 102 16 - 9 10 , ,) 12 10 2:36 1 0 . 64 10 1 277 4 0 54 12 0 . 20 10 0 . (60 0 0 ContrA Cr. his. ft. By freight of timber 383 22 a' 31. _ . cwt q. ds. Do. •of deals 30 '2 10 a' 31. Do. of staves 49 3 oa' 251. 5 per cent. thereon L. S. D. 1,256 6 5 . 275 5 0 -124 7 6 77 15 11 Balance Lost on the voyage No. 4. On a voyage from London to Quebec, and back to London, 1826. L. S. D. To disbursements at London, outwards . . 416 14 . 0 Do. Quebec . ' 112 13 5 • . Do. at London, inwards . . 76 18 5 . . Wagcson the voyage . . . 2,11 10 4 • Commission on freight . . :4 3 Q . Insuraree on 0,0001: a' V, gs. . . 220 10 0 Do. on .1,3001. a' 30s. ' . l9 10 0 Policy -day •IS 5 0 . . . Wear and tear,for one.year, a' 10 per ccut. . 600 0 T 0 Contra Cr. Idi. ft. . . By freight &pine timber 323 20 a' ,10s. cwt. q. ds - . 11 3 " • •IC 1 G' ) 4 4 L. . SOS 10 0 D0..0f deals ' Do. ofbattens Do. of lathwood . 101 17 8 1415 10 925 S 1 FPPLEMENT TO ,-THE S , 7 - a - TrE R 1 - 4 - - - 11- A 6 I' - fr - J--11 • " ---e-;44. •-• -- --, 4t j the price of American timber, been in a great measure occasionedy the excess of importation beyond the consumption ? The principal occasion has been the decrease of consumption. What do yon mean by the decrease of consumption ; do you mean to state that the consumption of timber in the country generally, has decreased? In London and the neighbourhood. as far as it has come to my knowledge, it has.generally decreaSed within the last twelve months. . -Upon %vita do you found that opinion ? The diffieulty I haVe found in procur ing sales for the timber committed to my care. Is the stock of timber of all descriptions, now in the port of Loudon, greater than it was A this period in the last year ? I should think it was. In what proportion ? Not largely. , Then it is to be presumed, that the sale of the last year has been nearly equal to the importation ? I suppose it has. Are you aware that the importation of the last year was remarkably large? It was remarkably large from the Colonies, but remarkably small from the north of • Europe. . • If the question of duty was set at rest, would not the over-import of timber from the British colonies, which hai been excited by speculating on the expectation of an alteration in the duties, di be ? lam induced to believe that large pur chases would be made of American timber at the present price, if the belief existed that no decrease of duties would take place from the north of Europe ; I conceive if the question of duty was set at rest, that no expectation existed .of a decrease of duties on timber from the north of Europe, a much larger consumption .'of the colonial timber would take place, and much larger purchases be made. • Would not the imposition of a small duty on timber from the British colonies, lead to amore 'careful selection of it, and tend to improve its value? Undoubted edly ; but that would lead to lessen the quantity most considerably. In what proportion do you think that a duty of ten shillings per load would di minish the relative consumption of American timber in this country? More than one half. Would not the taking off a small part of. the duty on the Baltic timber have the _same effect in producing a better selection of American timber, as the laying a small . duty on the American ? Ido not think it would have the same effect,. I think it• would have some effect ; but I am quite sure that it would destroy the colonial trade one half, if any reduction were to take place of the duty , on the timber from the. north of Europe. - . • 'That amount of duty do you think might be beneficially imposed? None; most certainly the trade cannot exist under its present disadvantages; it is righting itself; they. lose so much in the freight, and so much in the measurement from their :bad. squaring of the timber, that it is very much improving in its state to what it was; it comes in a _much better state this year than . it did in the former years; it has bettered itself every year, finding the advantage of bringing it in a state better squared, for they lose so much upon the dead freight, and so much upon the mea sure, it is evident to the parties interested in the trade that they must take more pains in making that timber square. - • Do you mean that the whOle of the immense consumption within the last two, years has been of a better quality, and better squared than that which was imported before? I do, generally it has. And in this immense quantity consumed, there has' not been a greater proportion of lower and worse description, of wood ? Ido not ,think there has ; but the two chief causes which have occasioned the reduction of price, has been the decrease of consumption; and - the unwillingness of the timber dealers to hold any stock, under the expectation of an alteration of duty, which has obliged the importers to press upon . the market beyond the capability of taking it off; the sellers have been obliged to have sometimes three public sales in a week, from the inability of the importers to keep it. Has not that been owing to the increased importation ? ho ; chiefly to theale creased consumption, and the unwillingness of the merchant to hold. • What description of individuals are the importers of that timber, merchants or ship-owners?, Merchants are the largest importers. Ijas not a considerable quantity of timber been brought from the colonies to this mar during the last and.preceding seasons, for the account of the owners of the ships in which it was brought? Certainly not to my knowledge a large proportion. What proportion do you consider not a large proportion ? of one tenth. Do' you believe that independent of the state of the shipping, which was in want of employment, the importation of timber during the last two or three years would have been carried to the extent to which it has? I believe it would not quite, but it would not have made a large difference ; the causes of the weight on the market are the decrease in the consumption, and the expectation of an alteration of duty ; I may be allowed to state as a fact, that the timber I have been chiefly emppelled to force on the market for sale,• has been for merchants, and not for -ship owners ; I scarcely recollect an instance of a ship-owner compelling me to sell ; we have now a great deal of timber which is held by assignees of merchants. Mr. Thomas Forrest,, called in ; and examined. Your are a ship-owner at South Shields ? I am. Where have your ships generally traded to ? I have had them mostly in the coal trade, the Baltic trade, the North American timbertrade, and theWestlndia trade. What number of ships belong to the port of Newcastle? Between eight and nine hundred. Do you know the amount of their tonnage ? About 190,000 t ons . • • . . What number of-ships belonging to the port of Newcastle are engaged in the British North American trade conveying wood to Great Eritain? I believe be. tween two and three hundred ; the ships of the largest tannage go upon those voy ages ; the smaller ships keep in the coasting trade. What is the amount of tonnage of those ships? It.willbe nearly half the-ton nage of the port. . ,What is the present state of the shipping interest in the port of the Tyne? It is very much depressed, the same as the general Shipping-Interest of the country ; I dO not know any voyage on Which a ship could be sent, that would . pay the current expenses of the voyage. Has the Mirth American timber trade been attended with loss lately ? Yes, it has been attended with loss. If any additional impediments were thrown in the way of that trade, would it be materially injurious to the shippinginterest ? It would very much injure it. Can you give the committee some information as to the actual expenses of a voyage to the North American colonies ? • I haVe made up a statement at large, and I have an abridged one: [The witness delivered in the same. and it was read as fol A STATEMENT of the first cost and expenses of a new ship, the NI launched in 1819. No. 1. lows. ] :Ison, - 380 tons; L. S. D. 6,666 18' 4 1. s. d. 5 per cent. thereon . . , 1G 5 2 Vs. :id. dock dues 8 1 8 , Ids. ft. freight of pine tirnber . 12 15 1)o. of spars .- . .17 0 Do, of oak timber .99 33 I. s. d. Loads . . 128 48 5Cs. 322 8 0 . , cwt. q. ds. Do. of staves . 43 G 10 a' 151. 64..12 6.. 5 per vent. thereon . . . . 19 11 _ . 1,385 17 4 Balance lost on the voyage • • 1. 35-1 11 10 ABSTRACT of the Nelson's accounts for two years, 1819 and 1820. 1. s. d. . 6,66 G 18 . 4 No:I. First cost and on:fit in 1819 2. Amount of loss on coal voyage —3. - Do. - Do. on Quebec voyage 4. Do. Do. on Do. . Interest on capital, for two years 40 10 8 162 7 8. 4- 334 11 10 (NG 12 Lo? in two years :/. .1,22-1 2 10 N. 8..11.4is ship was valued after two years service, at the preset time, for sale, slield JIM sell for .1,5G01. a' .121. per ton. As a proof, a siiiiicalled the Andros .1819 ; 420_tons, cost 75001. 5(,141 in January ,1821 for 50001; and Ail 420 tonsr haibeen in the"fliarTs-et fOr two yeatt; . and is ,et un sold; the Palimban, 400 tons, has been unemployed for the same time. Have you a similar 'statement of the expenses of an outfit to the Baltic? I have one for Memel. another for Dantzic, and another for Petersburg. [The witness delivered in the same, and they were read as folio ws. Snow, FAME; on a voyage to Memel and back to London, turtheti 24G tons, eleven men and boys. 1820. March 14 )To disbursements, London .. • • to '- ' Do. _Memel . • • June . . 5) Do. Elsineur, both way's • Portage bill .- • • • Brokerage; customs, &c. . • • , . Dock dues delivering . • • , • Insurance on 20001. at three guineas per cent. Policy . • • • • . Wear and tear . . . • • d. 96 -- 123 3 3 25 12 1 1111 6-- 40 13 9 15 11 2 63 5 5 30 ./. 516 11 3 1. s. d. By freight • Prinlge 71 per cent. Loss . . . 350 5 - 2(i .5 4 140 --, 11 N. B. The above loss is without charging any 1. 516 11 3 interest on the capital employed. Snow, JOSEPH and MARI-, burthen 267 tons, navigated by eleven men and boys, from Falmouth to Dantzic and London; on-Which voyage every despatch was used, and performed without happening. any accident, , . . . To sundry expenses at Falmouth previous to ship sailing . Do. at Elsineur, outw:ards . . Do. Dantzic . • • - • Do. Elsineur, homewards . . . • • ‘ Do. London, discharging . • • • , -- Stamens' wages . . • Brokera g e, lights, and tonnage duty duty Commercial dock dues - - . . • • Provisions for the voyage . . • • Insurance, as per policy, on 25001. at G guineas per cent. . Policy duty bl per cent. • • Wear and tear during the voyage, sails, cables, &c. . 13 19' 71 . 10 - 11 . 121 9 61 . 11 12 11 . 21 19 6; . 111 18 8 . 50 10 4 . 6 13 6 . 51 - - . 157 10 - .6 5 - • 50 1. Gl2 19 3 s. . 543 9 7 .° C 9 9 8 By whole amount freight and pritnage By- loss on voyage . • • • N. B. The above loss is without any charge for interest on the capital. L 612 19 3 AlEmortAxnum.--The Joseph and Mary was built in the year 1813, and cost .to sea 6,5781. and sold in the year 1820 . for 2,Ci501. STEPHEN STA;;TON. Two BROTHERS, on a voyage to Petersburg and back to London, burthen 215 tons, ten men and boys. Mr. Francis Treadwell called in ; and examined 1. s. (1. 181 7. To disbursements, a' London . March 14 Do.. Elsineur to Do. . Cronstadt . 5 Do. fees at Petersburg Portage bill . • • • Brokerage, 'customs, &c. &c. Delivering ship in river . Insurance on 36001. a' I guinea per cent. Policy . . • • • Wear and tear . . . • • Where do you reside?. In• London. • • - • • •• Have you formerly sailed in a Prussian vessel ? Yes ; I commanded a vessel belonging to Elias Roupel,.esquire, of Memel, from the year 1810 to last-October. In what navigation was she principally employed? -Principally between Memel and London, and Memel and Dublin. • In the timber trade? Yes, constantly. Was this ship in which you*ent built for the timber trade ? Yes, she was. Can you state the comparative expence - of the building and fitting of a ship-in Memel and in Great Britain, at the present time? There is nearly one half difference ; a ship and her materials may be purchased really for sea at Memel for about 61. 15s. a ton, that is British registered tonnage. What are seamen's wages at Memel? Memel is the 'mist extravagant port there is in Prussia ; that is no criterion to go by ; •in general in Prussia the average of seamen's wtges are 9.55, per month; I have never paid more than :-?0s. during the last four years. _ 'Two Brothers :—Account continued. „ - Are not sails. and cordage and every description of necessaries for the outfit of a ship during her voyage, and for her supplies, much cheaper there than in this country? Yes, more than one third cheaper; the highest price we ever paid for beef was fourpence a pound. Are not biscuits and flour also cheaper in a greater proportion ? Yes, only l 2s. per cwt.. ship bread. What is the present price here? I believe one or two and twenty shillings per cwt. ; I ant not at present in employ, so that I am not aware of the current prices in London. - By freight outwards . . . Homeward freight : tons. cwt. qrs. lbs. 100 Cas`i s tallow . 44. 15.• 1. 0. . . a' 30s. 4384 Bobbins flax . 57. 1. 2. 9. . . a' 50s. 22 Builds. hemp . 20. 5. 0. 17. . . 50s. 1,010 Deals . . 0. 25. 2. 0. . . a' 755. Is a much greater number of hands necessary to navigate a Prussian ship than is necessary to navigate a British ship of the same tonnage? No ; I have commanded a Prussian ship now for seventeen or eighteen years, and I never had a man more in the one than I should have had in the other; I never had more than sixteen men and boys in the Maria, a ship of 375 tons. • Have you knoWn instances of British ships of that tonnage being navigated by a smaller number of hands in the Baltic trade? No, we went in those ships entirely on the British plan. Was the owner of that Ship a British subject ? No he was not, he was a subject of Prussia. Primage 5 per cent. 13 Casks tongues 1 . I Case leather ( I Bale hides 1 'Package scythes 450. Pieces lath-wood . . • Was any part of the crew British ? Only myself. Was there any ship-building going on in the last autumn, when you left Memel? No not in Memel. Do you think the shipping of Prussia is increasing or decreasing ? It is much the same I think. _ What proportion of the Prussian timber trade - is carried on in British ships? I am sure I cannot say. • There are a goo,tl many British ships employed in it, are there - not ? Yes; -and there are great many Prussians, hut I never entered into the proportions. What is the reason if there are such advantages in favour of the Prussian ships, that the - Prussian timber is not all sent in Prussian ships? I cannot say that; it is a matter I never studied. Have you had occasion to know whether ship-building is going forward in the other parts of Prussia at preknt? No, I have not. had any occvsiod, for I have not had any communication- with the other parts lately. You do not know Whether the Prussian ship-owners are in the habit of building ships' to replace those that may be worn out ? No, I cannot say.. •Mr John Lanips on, was called in ; and exaMined. _ What is your sitization ; Landing surveyor in the customs in the port of London. 359 1 7 Without, adding interest on the Loss is capital, the . • . (;7 - ‘1 15:;9 1 8 • Are you acquainted with the first cost of Prussian and Norwegian ships? I have made enquiry of captains of those ships, and have had conversations with theni. I find, that the Norwegian ships can be built for less than one half of the British, and the Prussians et abeiit one half. Is not the expense of navigating the foreign ships much less than that of the British ? It will be about half, or not quite so much ; the wages and victuals will not be one half. - Are there nut some very large establishments in the Tyne, for building and re pairing of ships? There are large establishments, which have cost considerable sums of money, on the Tyne, for building and repairing ships. In what state are those.establishments at present? They are partly given up; Have you been engaged much , in the landing of thither ? Considerably some years ago, till within the lastfour or five years, from the year 1811 to 1816: . You are aware:df the 'manner in which the• duties are - taken at present on timber and deals ? am. Do you sec any official difficulty there would be, in taking it both upon one and the other on the cubie'content ? • It is tiling think practicable, but which would be attended with considerablo difficulties, particularly in its origin, and perhaps for a considerable time,' and also . with additional expense to_ the revenue. What are the difficulties - which y o u contemplate? That of ascertaining it by ships that are delivering their cargoes afloat in the river into lighters. td those which are not ~ .iven up, are merely going on with their apprentices, in building or repairing. Are there many ships built in the port of the Tyne?. There are not many build ing in the port of Tyne just now ; those establishments which have apprentices, perhaws, may be building; but they build as little as possible. You conceive the reason why the ship-builders.in the port of Tyne still keep their-yards And docks there, is for the purpose of employing the apprentices •they have? I know that to be the fact. _ . . Acquainted as you are with the peculiar interests of that part of the country, do ..„, OF THIS DAY. „JD, , tovA d_ID 1-? 1 TIS , . • 'yett not think that the imposition of a duty on the Norticilamcrican timber would have a very materially injurious effect upon the port of Tyne? I should conceive any thing, which throws the shipping interest out of employment; would have an in jurious effect upon the port of Tyne, which so much depends upon the shipping. - -Your opinion is,•that. art alteration of the timber duties would have that effect? In my opinion. it would lead to that.effect.. Do you think a greater importation from the Baltic would take place in conse quence. of an alteration of the duties ? • I think it is very probable that it would. Is it your opinion, that a smaller quantity of tonnage would be employed • from the port of Type, in the consequence of the proposed alterations ? I Should conceive half the tonnage would bring the same quantity from the Baltic in all probability, and part ofthat tonnage would be foreign. Are the ship-owners. of North and Solith Shields engaged as merchants as well as owners ? They are-merchants in the coal trade, but seldom in any other trade ; • it very rarely happens, that they engage in any other commodities. Could the. ships that are now engaged in the British North American trade be converted into the Baltic trade? Part of them might. - What would prevent the whole of them being employed? There are some of them too large for many of the ports in aheßaltic ; for instance, Mernel is a bar harbour; and at Dantzic there is but little water. . You have stated, that there are betweermwo and three hundred belonging to the port of,l'Aweastle - employed in the timber trade; they are not employed from that port, but Carry on that trade from the western coast principally? I apprehend there are ships belonging to Newcastle trade to all the ports of the kingdom. Do not the greater proportion. of those ships go to the western coast of the king- " dour - and get employment frem thence, by the merchants in the timber trade ? Part of them do. s not that part a great part? I should not apprehend it is the greatest proportion. How many ships do you apprehend carry on the trade, bringing their 'cargoes to Newcastle? I apprehend a very small proportion come to Newcastle ; a great many come to London. Have you much Baltic trade from Newcastle? There is not a great deal of Bal tic trade from Newcastle. . • • ' Do you know whether it is'inereaSing or diminishing? I cannot state that. -Is it dmictly in Newcastle ships that -the.eargoes Come ? I think it is mostly in Newcastle ships or Foreign - ships ; the reason I cannot speak so particularly to that • is, that.' }Can't:eel - 1 . '4 . gbod deal from that pent within these' few years. • , . You have spoken to tile expense of Foreign ships, and to the great advantage they have over us in point of expense, do you happen to know that there is agreat proportion of the Northern .trade carried on in English ships, with Prussia and Russia? Part of it is carried on in English ships, but they are trading to a loss. -A great proportion is carried on in British ships ? Yes. And always has been ? - Yes. _ • Can you account for that being the case if there is so great an advantage to Fo reign- ships ? I account for it in this way, that the. ship-owners in England at pre sent have larger capitals than they have in Norway or Prussia, that the ships are sailing to a loss which the Prussian ship-owners cannot sustain, and that that is the reason why they are falling . offnoW. Can you account - for the proptertion of British shipping, when they were not sailing to a loss ? This country has the largest proportion of shipping at anytime. • When the shipping was sailing to advantage, how do you account for so large a proportion of time trade from the North having being carried on in British ships if all the advantages you state are in favor of foreigners? Th e foreigners have not so inanY ships, - nor ever had; all the ships they had in Prussia or Dantzic were employed at that time; all the shipping they had was engaged in trade. If there Was any increase of the trade at this time would it not then be carried on in British ships"? I have already stated that the British ship-owners arc losing money, and that they have outcarried the foreign shipping by that means ; but it is impossible for me to state •hciw e long they will continune to sail at a loss. If the advantages you state were decisive in favour of Foreign ships, how is it the English ships were not driven Out of the trade when it was carried on to advantage? I apprehend that the whole of the Norway and the Dantzic ships were kept trading, and that they were - not laid up in their ports. . Then it arose from the want of ships in those countries ?. I conceive so. Have there been many ships built in those countries lately ? I do not know, I have a certificate of a. ship built in I 8 1 t, at Pillan. Was there much ship building carried on at that time? lam not aware. Can you inform the committee of what classes time shipping are that are gene rally employed from Newcastle in the timber trade of our North American Colo nies ? I should COD , rive ships cf different classes, from old ships ( say twenty. years -old) of about four hundred tons; and others-which are new of time same ton nage ; there are likewise-some smaller vessels down to perhaps 250 tons. Are ships of the first class employed in that .trade ? There are many ships of 'the first class - that have been providedfor other trades which, owing to the general depression of shipping, have gone into the North American trade. is the depression the same in the Baltic trade? It is much the same in the Baltic trade, but the .ships in that trade are generallysntaller. There are ships of the first class belonging to Newcastle, employed in the deal and timber trade in the Baltic? I think there-are; but some ships that go to Peters burg in this way are loaded with a part deals, and a part hemp and tallow,-and ether articles, which they generally bring in first class ships. Are you aelttainted with the present price of American yellow pine timber at Newcastle ? No, lam not much 'acquainted with the price of timber Then why should-you, being ignorant of the price of timber in the markets of this country, be of opinion, that a moderate duty on American timber would throw a considerable proportion of the shipping now employed in that trade out of em ploytnent ? I know so far of American timber as to,.know this, th a t th e f re i g ht has been 50s. per load upon it, orwai last year ; that the charges are about five or six shillings, or perhaps - seven shillings ; and I understand it has been selling in the market for about :31. or 81:5s. per load :May not that state of things have been produced by an excess of trading, or over-importation ? _l_ think its is very likely that it has. And that that state might exist whether the duty existed or not? I cannot speak to that point. • Are not the - ships in the northern perts principally insured in clubs where they insure one another ? In the general way they are. What has the premium of insiarOire per annum cost, being insured in that mode during, the laSt year, or the year bethie ? In a general way, i conceive they average from seven to tell per cent ta t t.th e la s t year I understand some of them got up as high as fifteen per cent, on account of the great losses which they sustained the former part of the lastyeai - . , . June 893 17 -8 853 7 0 .10 10 8 1,795 3 2 1 633 14 10 132 6 4 L. S. D. 1,7:0 9 2 1. s. d. 67 2 11 N 2 13 11 50 12 11 95 12 61 6 2 3 17 1 G 1373 18 4 II 7 9 3 I 5 GI 80 10 8 . 21 7 8 . HG 9 8 • 13 5 • 14G 10 0 . '7 7 0 . 18 9 2 . 47 5 - 7 17 G . 40 - /. 539 1 8 I. s. d. 83