The Sun. — London, England, 1839-03-22 00:00:00

EVE‘ 7 ING EDITION. e : te rY provic e i n I re l and the advantage of railroad COMMU- Lr:at ion. The motion havingr been seconded, An HoN. MEMBEP move that the House he counted, j! l ni forty Members ' not being present, the House was ad ourned.' .a R OUES OF LORDS, .3LIRc2 21. The House sat at Ten minutes before Five o'Clock. The Earl of SH AFTESBURY presented a petition a gainst any alteration in the Corn-laws. f The D u k e of BUCKINGHAM presented petitions Pfrom East Warder in Westmorland, Derby, Alborough, Alle rton, and oth er p l aces, against any alteration in the Corn-laws. T he NOBLE DUKE also presented petitions from arrington, Liverpo o l, and Kingston-up on -H u ll aga i ns t the B eer Bill. Dublin Earl MEATH presented a petition from the City of agiinst any alteration in the Corn-laws. It Lord HATHERTON presented a petition from uttoxcter, prayin g for a repeal of the Beer-laws. , I!ord RAYLEIGH presented a petition from a place is Essex against the Beer Bill. Ldr., :, °l ' ' v LEYpresented petitions from placcsin Wor cestershire against an alteration in the Corn.laws. Also, a The praying for a uniform Penny Postage. • [he Marquis of WESTMEATH presented a peti t') r lawns:torn Fermanagh against any alteration in the Corn- Iv tol S TAN HOPE presented a pet i t i on from Holds -1344, against any alteration in the Corn-laws. Th e lc . JAMAICA. to filar of NORMANBY stated, in answer f s li a question put to him by the Marquis o h er ffOt that an arrangement had been commenced by b et Majesty's Government respecting the state of trade th at wee n Jamaica and the island of St. Domingo, and but a com munication had been made in January last, to which there had, of course yet been no answer. Th e CORN-LAWS. f r Earl of CA MPE RDO WN presented a petition h ear, an i a Place in Scotland, the name of which we did not a ed tve..Y numerously signed, praying for ,, an immediate t ez , , ° Lal repeal of the Corn-laws. Ihe Noble Earl o a " , i e r c h t ed that he had been unable to attend in his place cus se r rs day last, when this subject was so fully dis re,„"! and when he should have had an opportunity of er,44)Zhis vote upon the occasion. Of all the petition- Co re ? h ad petitioned their Lordships against the existing th ese . r‘lB, none could feel more strongly the injustice of eate 1' 0 474 than himself. He certainly was an advo oe,h, r their total repeal, but he considered that they • . 'to be repealed gradually. tar' Ai l . NAVY. net e b •iNTO laid on the table a return of . the hew, tuber °f e, registered ships on the West Indian station, A -. / e \ n May and December, 1838. IteJ a r" LE EARL presented a pfttition from a place in Il d , M favou r of railways in that country. kr / 1 T ITHES ARREAR BILL. rear ii,d—ERNAL and o th ers b roug h t up th e Tith es Ar %) i, whi c h , upon the motion of Lord DuscAN read w as read a fi rst time, ordered to be printed, and ma second tim e to-tnorrow. Lo r d CORN-LAWS. Ludl ow W I NCHILSEA presented petitions from great, Eaglethorp, Riddle, Louth, Yarborough, and a No rth ln anY other places in the Counties of Lincoln, itti e , fl.'l3ton, Norfolk, and York, against any alter- Out t : tile Corn-laws. The Noble Lord regretted ci ti trw7 se ha d not been able to attend on Thursday last, he should have presented his petitions before Pr e ,: uu ject had been discussed. The Noble Lord also t,i o -4t ed petitions from Maldon and another place Al so st mtlY further grants to the College of Mavnooth. IN a rititition f rom a p l ace i n t h e county of York, R oma t heir Lo r d s hi ps to pass some measure whereby 11 411 41.`Irt Catholics s h ou ld b e exc l u d e d f rom seats in 41/lent. STATE OF IRELAND. f log The Earl of ItODEN, in bringing . forward the mo o ( e ) ,I . Which . he had given . notice, respecting the state th _" lakl, said, that sharing the opinions, and possessing respectable and a very 14;_e confidence of a very hi! Portio n of his countrymen, it would be criminal in etinaW•erehe not i n this, the hourof their greatest distress— (lb,. t 'me when they were in a state, unparalleled at least g his IT hen in many , parts of Ireland,. life "(I triiproperty life—when, insecure, and when that civil and •th e "'"us liberty was not ensured to a large portion of t s t P.ceple, which it was th in e duty__ m of Government to pro the ' It would be criminal interests. He to neglect at this time He confessed the sub- Rant advocacy of their i . nte I:to be one of considerable difficulty, not because he b . : 4 'd matter, and w - ' the painful . matter, to bring f0.r,v.,/ar.d— -was so important, its ram , ocations 'hete subject tensive, its details were so numerous, I %; i t t . he So fou e n x d it exceedingly difficult to condense the tr 7tct into such a compass as not to con•,ume too much Their Lordships might re -1441)do" Lordships' time. er that at the commencement of the last Session inserted in the Speech from 1 14ajesty' s Ministers M t, Urone words of a congratulatory . character, as to the 1.141(luillity" of the empire at large, and a Noble t eaci ti v i i ho either moved or seconded the Address, ex , 'kcal teased h 0 congratulation not only to England, and to th eo 81.41 d, but to Ireland. He (the Earl of Roden) . had l ' a oiCi t It i tia duty to contend that an exception should forwL"'lth re - d to Ireland ; and he had brought ,e ~ t Ll''' raletion4ron the subject—belis;vin,i that the of de,riZilitY'' of Ireland could only be the tran that time 1 .t.self: he then stated that he knew there q w u as at 1 -"'aiaral• k • ts operation. : 1 1.1 1 ::: t la 1111 ° Peration a conspiracy ot .. a . most danger t was n . tpg Ind and ' most murdrsrous in i 418 intention at the present time o t h o t en fo te rw r i a n r t d o . tle Would seetails which he bad then brought h Noble l‘ls n:content himself with stating that t thiorelti,',' (Nornianby) had not denied any of b e is facts. Sthe state present occasion be should conne himself to e„atetnent of certain facts which bad arisen Lord - " last had the honour of addressing their shi 41 'os , a PB on this subject—facts which clearly th e e e 'l th e existence of a combinati9n . again.ost etztetnds of justice, which, in the great majority of is i h. 14,1:salad been successful in preventing the ha p tuainti -4)414;4 offenders. Its object was to show at lordly and crime prevailed to such an extent in t Ireland or) at called for the interference of the L ate 'lt least Shou l d Committeeof I quim An - se se „ And the in egi.slature, " - any par- TIN 'be g►ve would not he taken from T h 41. ant but would extend over the whole country. tri b i caus e to which he would rete n r o t p ra er s that of the la4(l7°ltThe in' urd.erers of Messrs. C ' liabir t Tipperary. The murderers bad been 50 ; for three months of meetin g at a public-110 1 :se c to d o atilt and Wes 1 upon the horrible deed ; and when Mr. Wey an 4clllltat;.,YinP; wounded, his father daily receivede le a t s te , r i s i. , 1444 v that it was useless to attempt aA. 1 'Zit ientleman recovered he would be again shot. .11:1-:'• 13'Keefe was shot at in the streets of Thur- saw the Wh -- ol a trtt Public street —and several "4'3'41 Kea" ; but none of labourers them had svo h u e lt e l n id i e n ntif s y li t g h o e , A"ea There many cases 4 . l'i hear,, Tito ugh k sO, carmen cruelly beaten, who afterwards, --.. ( 11 ar a s °w s in g the assailants, did not dare to prosecute. kit:4l filar,) rii4n Loegford, on the es . tates . of Lord Lorto , A re Well 1, erg bad taken place in which the assassins i,...u1at1n,-.noiivn, but had not been identified.—(Hear . . , ) , Tell gay, -Hen Cathcart was fired at three times in the 4 and last Monday week one of the servants v t erel v ev i : Mr. Bretton,his way to Longford, was ..e -4'lloll 'eat") and on remained in a hopeless state. d - r e e j eunt Y of now Roscommon similar attacks had Ale, pin e „ the county of Westmeath was com -1836, Mr. Haines, of Mi t t . - t4 el i t i 3 'rovrn bong% someMa}, 1836, property on which eighrt theit Prot: had:beerk made, t a il(' he bought de a I tas t -et PO of the police. e Mr. Mores, who was at this moment under elber. Flu e ,°` aixty-severli) e e ar . s, was murdered abtaArtaoes entered Mr. Gaudle's farm, n i c e ar D ß e a e lliniore b eat eleven o'clock in the day, shot one of the hor a se n s y , Nor,"'' Ploughman, and ordered him not to wor 4 1Ri i i. ArMed Ribbonmen, constantly appeared in th e ford, u,°arhood • nights. The counties of Water he e ,„Lath and Clare were in a similar state. o t afraid of wearying the House by going int Work d etails • but he felt it necessary as the ground st ore pjefeeth,e motion, with which he . should conclude. A ,at e , tn nt the county of Limerick, there were six teen 1 ,1 lasCukt•fatnilies who were continually attacked, In an a d n ', 44 tit' t ueY were obliged to request the clergyman 'mle -,_ekled them to desist:from'so doing, and since that of 41'" d Ik e , e . been so *le h ad . h had em nl ig u ra c t il eci / Hear, Il e a *) persecuted . that . ten tettivt. taker ` extracts from twelve counties in th these 14whi4'th -lit had not included the King's County, , ._ u t ry ,ad t s k 14te most horrible murder of Lord h N" The eritZ,l44oe-•-nor had he taken the Queen's County.from t " Aagi-5.441'-ation were . in every case derived hlic 114,1 We're.l,ll4l,"!%.bust if their na m m e e n s . were made onog ,i . t . f ro 41 i'l7.ntalel.T a marked ,s tchn il!agistrateinAlj stYadLeorpdaship; and two in Ministers, he o a d reecv Ti.ppFrary. f that Westmeath, wt,aos the Police He " 4 i ° 1 13 ] tow ed i intimation rorn a ~..,ari R oden and when they left their to l t - Part ..,) had the good fortune ran I"' the country which was comparatively e e ri e b ,bon 'l°Zt_there. was no' knowing to what extent the cLth e ' i cell ' h ot , had been . disemminated through . - " g litts -rY• His motion was for a Select ' tl l)Ply a ` e to i nvesti(sat e this state or things, and to r oot ou t - rem edy, if that could possibly be done—to * ell-d i ; a sYstern which had driven the peaceable and_ Which had and loyal inhabitants from their homes, and It , '44cl rendered th e laws nugatory in their operation. t hattared by the re. urns to which he had referred th e lu`'.2 death s by v.iolence bad taken place within lat twelve month s in Ireland, and he hoped their th„, ~. ,IPs would grant the Committee . it• it was only for g c; . `c of the Noble Mar uis himself, in order that he 4 04 1 ' 1 If POssible, vindicate q himself from the tears of hi at - o c/ 7 And scenes of bloodshed, which had marked the I seet / of nesthi Vice.ren-al career. Those aho were the pre- I b t : lt t Wi he Nobre Marquis opposite in office, when they tliQiol 'time grappled - with iHear.) What _h a e t - 'tined of in reference to the Noble Marquis w h as t t w h as M Wit a i l l v h ad not been administered by him, and N t t ile ).., e wanted to prove before the Committee. .o a do . ubt ta,ti'loblo m..- ---- wit had acted from the most conscientious N the b yes ' hat wba tever might be his opinion of the course, or I. efit o f the corse, which he had pursued, and what eri,,ight have been the shouts of applause he had re ....... 'O, upouhis tours of popularity through lrelaud—shouts --...,,,,,..............._ raised by persons whom he believed either the priests or the democrats had ordered to attend for the purpose—yet the astounding facts remained, that animosities in Ireland were now more virulent, religious distinctions more marked, the social bonds more split asueder, life and property less secure, and Protestantism was more assailed than ever had been since the passing of the Legislative Union.—( Cheers. ) The Noble Marquis opposite seemed surprised, the °the- night, when he ( Lord R.) stated that the method he had taken of makir.g splendid gaol deli veries during his toms, had produced great alarm in the minds of her Majesty's peaceable subjects. He (Lord R. ) bad made that statement from authority and after due con sideration, and which he was prepared to repeat.—( Hear, hear.) A man near his (Lord Roden's) seen house, being a Protestant, had a political quarrel with a Roman C.tholic. The Roman Catholic assembled a crowd of persons, and pursued the Protestant into another man's house, where they demanded that he should be given up. That demand was refused, and the house was nearly demolished, and its contents greatly plundered. A Magistrate committed the principal delinquent to prison for a month, regretting at the same time that he had not the legal power to transport him. A memorial was got up in three weeks afterwards, and transmitted to the Noble Marquis, who immediately ordered his discharge. The moment the individual was liberated he re-assembled a crowd at the house where he had before committed his assault, and set the parties atdefiance. Was it possible there could be peace hi, Ireland so long as such a system as that was pursued.— ( Hear, hear.) He ( Lord IL) was not surprised to hear the Noble Marquis behind him (the Marquis of West meath) move a short time ago for certain memorials that bad been transmitted to the Noble Marquis for the dis charge of certain criminals; nor was he surprised to hear the production of those memorials refused, because had they been produced they would have exhibited a most ex traordinary catalogue. But he had been furnished with a return made to the House of Commons from May 1835 to February 1837, and upon looking over that return he found that in two years 1,173 convicted prisoners were discharged before the expiration of their sentences. Of those 37 were sentenced to deal), 33 to transportation tor life, and 63 to transportation for seven years—and he found that in the Noble Marquis's tour of popularity (for so it was called in Ireland) in 1836, the Noble Marquis discharged 284 prisoners, 110 of those being by verbal order.—( Heat, hear.) That was during the lifetime of his late Majesty, and the Noble Marquis being the repre sentative of his Majesty, it could not be considered unfair to make a contrast between the two. Supposing then, that his Majesty had made a tour through England. and at Chelmsford he had discharged 30 prisoners, as the Noble Marquis had done at one place; at Hertford be had discharged twenty-f ou r, as th e Noble Marquis had at Sligo; and at York, he had discharged 72, as the Noble Marquis had done at Tipperary, what would have been the feeling and state of England ?—( hear, hear). This popu lar tour had been described by a Noble Marquis, not now in his place, rather aptly, as dramatized royalty, making mercy to appear blindness, instead of justice. That really appeared to him ( Lord R.) to be the effect of the Noble Marquis's tours, and there could not but be many points of law affecting the discharge of those prisoners, which he trusted some Noble Lord would take up, as he was not able to grapple with them. The next subject was the existence of an Association which he was sure was known . by its appellation and the mischief it had produced, to all their Lordships, he meant the Precursor Society. It had been brought into life and carried on for mischief by a Learned Gentle man who was the great supporter of her Majesty's Govern ment, and who had very recently declared that he had every confidence in the Noble Marquis. This Society was not only the child of this individual, but it was supported and held by the Roman Catholic Priests, by whose spiri tual influences all its ranks were filled. The Noble Marquis might say he had nothing to do with that Society, but he (Lord IL) conceived that the Noble Marquis in not using his power to put that Society down as Governor of that country, became a partaker in its acts—particularly he felt so when he remembered that the Noble Mar quis was a Member of the Government which a short timo ago suppressed the Orange Society, which he had the privilege and happiness to belong to— a Society calculated to promote the welfare of the country, having for its ends legal objects, and its great foundation being the upholding of the laws of the country, and the preservation of the Union of the Empire; whereas the first great point the Precursor Society had in view was the annihilation of tithes, and the destruction of the Protestant Church ; and if their object in that respect failed, then the repeal of the Legislative Union. So long as the friends of the Government were the great organs of that Society —so long as the Government did not taut the Society down —then they themselves were to be considered the sup porters of it. He was unwilling that their Lordships should take his testimony only in reference to this Society, therefore he would read to them an extract from a letter from the Learned Gentleman who was the great supporter of this Society. The Noble Lord then read extracts from that letter, in which the Learned writer of it recommended an adjournment of the Society for a fort night ; also of a speech delivered by him at Limerick last year, in which he commenced—" Agitate, agitate, agi tate ;" also of a speech (for the purpose of showing that the Society was supported by the Priesthood) of a Roman Catholic Priest at a dinner given to the Learned Gentle man at Thurles, as reported in the Morning Register; and likewise part of an address delivered by Mr. O'Driscoll at Youghal, to show how much calculated this Society was to subvert the Protestant Church, root and branch; as also an extract from a pamphlet published in Dublin, in 1838, written by a very clever man, who signed himself " British Jurist," and a perusal of which he would recommend to every man who wished to become acquainted with the real state of Ireland. The next point to which he wished to allude was the existence in Ireland of a conspiracy, systematic, organized, and secret, against the persons and properties of all who did not join them. The greatest sufferers from this conspiracy were the poor farmers in the country. They were individuals who were- anxious to live in peace, but if they did not join the conspiracy, they were visited at night, and treated with the greatest cruelty. The object of this conspiracy was the same as that of the Precursor Society—the Repeal of the Union, with the ultimate ob ject of the extinction of Protestantism in Ireland. lie (Lord R.) had stated before that her Majesty's Govern ment was acquainted with this Society. That they had in formation of it from their own officers, and that the Noble Marquis on that occasion said he had no knowledge of it, nor did he believe that any such conspiracy existed.—( Hear.) It, therefore, became him (Lord R.) to prove to their Lordships in asking for the appointment of this Committee, that such conspiracy did exist. He would, therefore, read :tr. extract from the language of Judge Burton, in his address to the Jury at Tipperary last Assizes, where his Lordship st ated there were crimes of an nurad-gergravated and heinous character ; thirteen cases three of which appeared to him to involve the crime of a previous conspiracy to murder. Also the lan guage of the Lord Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench within the last month, wherein his Lordship commented, in passing sentence upon a murderer, on the awful offence of conspiring to take away human life for the sake of money. Nor could he suppose that a clearer case of conspiracy could be brought before the House than the late lamentable murder of Lord Norbury, a Nobleman, who, while he was walking in his park, in open day, in a thickly populated neighbourhood, was shot by an individual who had made his escape, and no trace of whom had been disco vered, notwithstanding, a reward of 4,0001. and an annuity of 1001. had been offered to any person who would give any information upon the subject. Then, in the next place, he would draw the attention of their Lordships to the Rib bon oath, some extracts from which he would read, and which he thought would afford the strongest proof of the existence of this conspiracy. —(Hear, hear. ) The Noble Lord then read several of the extracts. There was one fact connected with the Ribbon system which he was anxious to state to their Lordships, and which would convince them of the necessity of a Committee of Inquiry. Mr. Sims, to whose case he had before alluded, was a Scotch flour-merchant, who had taken a mill at Col looney, near Sligo, which had formerly belonged to two gentlemen named Kelly. From the time of the attack upon Mr. Sims' house he could procure no persons to work for him, nor would they bring any corn to his mill, which was reduced to a state of inaction. The Messrs. Kelly, who, for aught lie knew, might be very respectable persons, required a sum of money from Mr. Sims, which he had re fused to pay, and the order of th• demagogues had gone forth against him ; but when at length he did so, persons immediately were found to bring corn to his mill, and it was saon in full work. Now one of these persons, who were evidently in some way connected with this organised opposition to Mr. Sims —one of the Messrs. Kelly had been made a Justice of the Peace by her Majesty's present Government.—( Hear, hear, bear.) lie thought he had stated enough to convince their Lordships that an extensive, organised, and_wide-spread Ribbon conspiracy existed in Ireland. The last topic, and the most important of all to which he would direct their Lordships' attention was the conduct of the Roman Catholic Priest hood, who had by their violent and intemperate conduct, added much to the outrage and disorder that prevailed in that country. He believed in his conscience, that the peasantry of Ireland would be much more peaceable and orderly if they were left to themselves. He (the Earl of Roden) had been pronounced a bigot, but he yielded to no man in his anxiety to promote the welfare and prosperity of his Roman Catholic brethren.—(Cheers.) He would now read to their Lordships an extract from the charge of Baron Richards, at the Castlebar Spring Assizes for the county of Mayo, with reference to the conduct of the Roman Catholic priests, and the testi mony of that Learned Judge should be received with the more respect, because he had been raised to the bench by the present Government. The Noble Earl here read an extract from the charge of Baron Richards, in which that Judge complained of the prevalence of riots and outrages in that county, many of which took place when the parties were leaving the house of God, on the sabbath. The Noble Earl then read an extract from a work published by a Dr. Mayles, of Dublin, to the same effect. He would now call their Lordships' attention to the prosecution of the Protestants in the west of Ireland, which would afford them additional evi dence of the feelings of animosity and hatred instilled into the minds of the Roman Catholic peasantry by their priests. In the year 1831 a famine, as their Lordships must be aware, took place on the western coast of Ireland —a Rev. Friend of his went there with a cargo of rice, purchased in England, and he found on the coast of Achil a large number of families in a state of the greatest desti tution, their minds being equally destitute of all religious or moral instruction. A colony was established on the island of Achil by the Rev. Mr. Nangle, and several of the Roman Catholic converts were received into it, but the moment they had commenced their operations a regular plan of annoyance and persecution was established by the priests, and that persecution was rendered still more vio lent by the occasional visits of Dr. Jl' Hale. He would read to their Lordships extracts from the evidence of wit nesses who had been examined before a Committee of that House, and which would convince them that the priests had been the instigators of the outrages which had been then.Do p etrated read upon the colonists. The Noble Earl extracts from the evidence of Mr. R ey m o b o r l a d i s, n e t , he I neshpief c ec t or ffi c o e f r, the Air Coast pNioi t y Guard, ond 0 t h A o l r r 3 . A Representations had been '' agde various acts of outrage. to the Iri s h G overnment, but no notice had detailing TI-1E S€? N, LONDON, FRIDAY, MARC El 22, 1839 been taken of them for several months. He would oh. serve to their Lordships that Mr. Nangle rctoivecl no tithes—the colony was established on the voluntary prin ciples—( Hear, hear.) Those, principles had been misre presented, the characters of the clergymen calumniated, their safety threatened, and their persons assaulted. At the present moment they were err!uring the rigours of a seige, their neighbours were forbidden to buy or sell with them, one of the congregation had providentially escaped the murderous blow aimed at him, and another was still suffering from the effects of a serious assault. The colo nists had petitioned the Lord Lieutenant to establish petty sessions in the island of Achill in consequence of the persecutions theyovere undergoing, and the difficulty of obtaining justice in other districts. That memorial had been forwarded on the 30th of November, and no answer had been re'urned till the 21st of February following. In the meantime Mr. Reynolds, one of the witnesses examined before their Lordships.' Committee, was murdered.— ( Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that the laws of Eng land were paralyzed in that district, end that the laws and canons of Rome had superseded the efficacy of the British Constitution. Tlial by jury in some parts of the country, which was considered the glory and the greatest boast of the British Constitution, was a curse. Oaths were reckoned binding or not binding according to circumstances, or the parties to which they referred ; and murder itself was, as he should be able to prove, palliated and encouraged and even called praiseworthy. The great end and aim of all that was the annihilation of the Protestant faith in ire- land. He entreated them not to consider the subject as a mere Irish one—it was closely connected with the interests of the empire at large. It was impossible to separate the interests of the two countries—they were so closely united, that what was ruinous to the one must be fatal to the other. While he addressed their Lordships, Ireland was the battle-field of Protestantism ; and the saying that was prevalent in the time of Queen Elizabeth was realised, that " He who would in England win, Must first in Ireland light." ( Hear, Hear.) He trusted that he had laid before their Lordships sufficiently strong grounds to induce them to consent to the Committee He had merely done his duty in bringing the subject, under their consideration. He had said nothing to hurt the feelings of anybody, nor had he any wish to do so. He implored them for the sake of humanity and justice, and for the protection of her Ma jesty's loyal subjects in Ireland, to accede to his motion, which was, " That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the state of Ireland since 1835 with respect to crime and outrage, which had rendered life and property insecure."—( Hear, and cheers. ) The Marquis of NO RM ANB Y was perfectly ready to meet the responsibility of every thing which the Noble Earl had laid to his charge. And he owned that if the evidence was equal to the language in which he had clothed it, that responsibility would be heavy indeed. But he was ready to prove now to their Lordships that he had grappled with crime wherever he had met with it, throughout the whole course of his government, continu ously and successfully ; and so far from having made any invidious distinction, be could, if necessary, prove to their Lordships that his ambition had been to exhibit equal energy and vigour with his Noble and Gallant Friend (the Marquis of Anglesea) who had preceded him in the government of that country. He hoped he should be able to prove, even to the Noble Earl's (Roden) satisfaction, that the state of Ireland was not unparalleled in his recollection.—( Cheers from both sides of the House.) And he would state that, not from a few vague letters from Magistrates, though Magistrates they be (and he did not take the Noble Earl to say that there had been information on oath), but he would prove it to their Lordships (although the extent to which the Noble Earl had gone would compel him perhaps to weary their Lordships)—he would prove it by reading despatches from former Lords Lieutenant with respect to the State of Ireland in those times, and by comparing the charges of Judges in that time with the charges of Judges during his Vice-royalty. —( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Earl said that he had gone through twelve counties, each of which he had proved to be worse than it was before. Now he (Lord Normanby) would prove the reverse; but, he would ask, what ground was there for this extraordinary motion, or from whom did it come. With the greatest possible respect for the Noble Earl, he ( Lord Normanby) would beg leave to say that the Noble Earl gas not here, as he might think he was, speaking in the name of the Protestants of Ireland. (He ( Lord Nor manby) could confidently say, that there was a vast number of the most respectable, most intelligent, and most wealthy Protestants in Ireland, who differed from the Noble Earl as much in politics as the Noble Earl differed himself from the Pope in religion. If the Noble Earl should succeed in his motion, it would be said that it was the success of the late Grand Master of an Orange Institution and those he represented, and not the success of the Protest ants of Ireland in general, and it would appear that the Noble Earl had through that influence swayed the majority of their Lordships' House, to adopt the most in judicious and inconvenient step of taking into their own hands the Executive Government of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl was quite wrong in his allusion to many cases which were still under trial, and which he would seem to represent as not having been at all prose cuted by the Government. The cases of Newry and Cathcart were instances of the Noble Lord's error in that respect—indeed, there had been no cases of murder com mitted in the county of Longford within the last two years, for which there were not persons now in gaol awaiting their trial. In alluding to the county of Roscommon he spoke of certain crimes that had occurred during the contest in the time of the general election ; now he k Lord N.) be lieved that there was no contest in the county of Roscom mon at that time. He (the Marquis of Normanby) could not as yet with propriety allude to cases under judicial discussion, but in respect to the murder of Lord Norbury he could now inform him that there were two persons in custody for that murder. Three weeks ago the ;Coble Earl asked him whether it was likely that those who were then committed for that murder would be can vieted—he could not then arswer the question; tiow'fie could inform him that one of those persons, Doha lifts' k 6 e approver, had been found guilty' of perjuring , hirAsielfz - La (Laughter.) He (the Marquis of Normanby) must now beg leave to refer to the comparative state of crime in Ire land, and here he would remark that the Comparative state of crime could not be ascertained from individual cases, however atrocious in their character or heart-breaking in their results, but from the general aspect of the country— (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Normanby was now prepared to prove what he had asserted upon a former occa sion, viz., that in extent and atrocity crime had considerably lessened, and that the proportion of commit tals for crime had very much increased, as had also the proportion of convictions to committals; if he could esta blish those propositions he trusted that their Lordships would be convinced that his (the Marquis of Norbanby's) Government could not be blamed for not having " grap gled with crime," as the Noble Earl had stated.—( Hear, hear.) Now here he would beg leave once more that their Lordships should distinctly understand that he ( Lord Normanby) had never stated that the condition of Ireland was entirely satisfactory—all he had ever taken credit for was, that in reference to tranquillity and the diminution of crime, the state of that country was generally progressive. Now, he would read from a return, which would show their Lordships the committals and convictions within two con trasted periods, for offences of an aggravated character, namely, homicides, violence offered to the person, cutting and maiming, aggravated assaults, abduc tions, incendiary fires, burglarious attacks upon houses, administration of unlawful oaths, serving of illegal notices, riots and factious fightings, and resistance to il legal processes. The Noble Marquis then read from the constabulary returns a series of local criminal statistics, Contrasting the last three months of 1837 with the last three months of 1838, it appeared that the number of all those offences, excepting homicides, had diminished in 1837 from 1,234 to 760 in 1838. Within the last five years the number of homicides had not been reduced, although it had fluctuated considerably. The smallest number, which was 228, occurred in 1837 ; and the largest num ber, which was 278, occurred in 1834. The attacks upon houses had been as follows :—in 1834, 923 ; . _ iu 1835, 818 ; in 1836, 518 ; in 1837, 637 ; and in 1838, 353. The deductions from a series of compa rative committals and convictions which he held in his hands was, that the proportion of committals to convictions in Ireland was about 71 per cent., nearly the same that it was in England—this improvement was in a great degree owing to the vigorous manner in which the constabulary dis charged their duties. Now be would contrast the state of things under his government with the state of things under the government of two preceding Lords Lieutenant. Lord Whitworth, a former Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, stated in a despatch which he sent over to this country in 1811, that convictions produced no good effect, and indeed could not always be procured on account ut the intimidation which was practised upon witnesses and juries. The Insurrection Act was applied for by fifteen Magistrates in the county of Westmeath—the county of Tipperary was in a very disturbed state. In 1814 applications were made for additional force on account of the disturbed state of the country, and it was refused by Lord Whitworth. This certainly was a precedent for his refusal to the late appli cations from the magistrates of the county of Tipperary. In 1615 Mr. W. Baker, a most respectable person, who had prosecuted to conviction several persons for attacking a house, was waylaid as he was returning from the Tippe rary sessions and shot dead. In Louth 10 houses were • the use of stones was as criminal as weapons. The Judges hosrever, recommended a commutation of the sentence, and the sentence was commuted on their authority.--( Hear, , hear. ) Another portion of the attack, referred to his sup ! posed abuse of the prerogative of mercy.— ( Hear, hear.) • Much had been said by the Noble Lord as r to occurrences which happened hi 1836, and he thought, after the many opportunities which the • Noble Lord had had of bringing forward this subject, it was rather unfair that three years should elapse before 1 making his accusations, more especially as he had brought forward a motion somewhat similar to this eighteen months ago,—( Hear, hear) In 1836, in consequence of the im provement which had taken place in the conducting of pro secutions many persons had been convicted of such offences ' as faction fights and riots at fairs, offences which had not previously been prosecuted. The Chairman of the Quarter Sessions of the county of Tipperary had informed him that the sentences in these cases were more severe than he had intended to carry into effect if the state improved. On this he ( Lord N.) had enlarged a number of persons who had not committed aggravated offences. If any of the latter class had had their sentences commuted that commutation had been decided on previously, on the recommendation of the Judges, and on every occasion he had made inquiries as to the previous character and good conduct of the par ties in the gaol. He had considered that this was an experiment worth trying, and he had always stated he had considered it as an experiment. The number of commutations of capital punishment were not half the number that had taken place in the year 1823, although he did not attach much importance to that, as the alteration in the law might have created the difference. They all knew the tendency of criminals to return, but of all those he had discharged in fifteen months, only twenty-one had been re-committed, and those principally for petty offences. The Noble Lld had referred to the Ribbon conspiracy; he believed that traces of them might exist, but he did not believe there was any general conspiracy. The members of the Ribbon lodges he believed were persons of the lowest class. The Government had used every endeavour to discover these Ribbonmen, and he was convinced a Committee of their Lordships' House would do no good in the way of discovery, as the Government had never been able to get sufficient evidence to prosecute. The Noble Earl had alluded to the appointments which he had made—he would submit a list of them, in order to show no unfair distribution of them had taken place. Of Judges appointed since the year 1825, S had been Protes tants and 6 Catholics ; of the high offices in the consta bulary force, 69 had been Protestants and 37 Catholics ; of Provincial Inspectors, Sub-Inspectors, &c., 27 Protes tants and 8 Catholics; of Attorneysaud Solicitors- General, and Magistrates of Dublin, 40 had been Protestants and 27 Catholics. The Noble Earl had alluded to the Pre cursor Society; he did not see how he could make hint (Lord Normanby) answerable for the existence of that Society, as he had always stated his objections to it, al though he did not consider it expedient to take steps to put it down. But he had also objected to the Orange Lodge, of which the Noble Earl was a member, and yet that Society still existed. The Noble Earl alluded to the phraseology of Mr. O'Connell. Now the Noble Earl had not been always very cautious of the language he had used or tolerated in his pre sence. In 1834, in the county of Down, at a meeting at which the Noble Earl was present, a Mr. Conolly had said that the time was come to drive the Papists out of the land, and the Noble Earl had said, " Protestants of Ulster, I know your strength, your love to your coun try, and your numbsrs." Now this, if it did not mean fighting, certainly indicated an intention to do so under circumstances. It was irksome to their Lordships to hear him speak at that length, and the confused mass of papers prevented his doing that justice to the subject which he otherwise should have done. There were one or two points to which he would refer, one was the establishment of pro secuting solicitors in Ireland, which occasioned many offences being brought to trial which had heretofore been compounded. The next was the arrangement of the constabulary force, which worked admirably, and instead of a system of constabulary force, ill-disciplined and under four distinct independent authorities, they had now a system under the sole command, first of Col. Shaw Kennedy and after Col. ITGregor, the efficiency of which was increased infinitely beyond the number of men added to it, Which was only 500. He took a pride in the con stabulary force. No one could regret more than he did the loss of Col. Shaw Kennedy or more sensibly feel the difficulty of supplying his place. He had known Col. 111• Gregor previously, and had selected him for that appointment, and nothing could exceed the satisfaction Col. 111 1 Gregor had given since he had been at the head of the force. With regard to his distribution of Church patronage, he was happy that all parties agreed in doing him justice. He had seen in a Conservative paper, that he had appointed 36 curates to livings, who had no other claim. This was the principle on which he had acted, and he was happy that nore of his political opponents had found fault with his Church patronage. He would not trouble them further, but he would beseech their Lordships not to consent to the motion of the Noble Earl, as it would be taking an unpre dented step, and it would appear not only to the people of Ireland, but to the people of England, that their Lordships were taking on themselves the Executive Government. On such questions, there was usually a sympathy between the two Houses, but on the debate on this subject the other night, not 40 Members of the great party to which the Noble Earl belonged, could be found to sit to listen to the statements. Notwithstanding his (Lord Normanby's) de sire to earn their Lordships' approbation, even to obtain that, he could not bring to his mind any one act of his Irish Government, which he would have changed. My Lords (concluded the Noble Marquis) I cannot—what ever he your decision—l cannot be deprived of the grati tude of a warm-hearted and long-oppressed people ; I can not be deprived of that which I value above all earthly considerations—the ,approval .of own conscience,— ,(Letzd cheers, from the Alioisteriat ben,chcq):' ,Tite Duke' 'of 'WELLINCTON . said, he did not think , his Noble Friend ( Earl Roden) could justly be charged with party motives in bringing forward this question. On the contrary, he thought that there never was a speech dis playing more moderation and calmness than the speech of his Noble Friend. No doubt the Noble Marquis was per fectly satisfied with his own Government in Ireland. But the Noble Earl (Roden) had thrown no imputation on the Noble Marquis. All that the Noble Earl had complained of was that there prevailed a great degree of crime and intimidation in Ireland. The fact, that for the last few years murders and homicides were from 700 to 1,000 a a year, two or three a day, that fact was quite sufficient ground for instituting an inquiry as to whether there was not something very peculiar in the administration of justice in that country which imperatively required some remedial measure.--( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis had la boured a vast deal to show that Ireland had always been in such an unhappy state, that it had never been peaceable and tranquil. But there had never before been found Go vernments to come down to Parliament, and affirm, by speeches from the Throne, that the country was in a state of tranquillity.—( Opposition cheers.) Nor had, till the pre sent time, Lords Lieutenants of Ireland been found to make long speeches with the view of showing Irelandito be,forsooth, " tranquil and peaceable."—( Cheers from the same quar ter.) The Noble Marquis had endeavoured to show that the blame, if any, was to be attributed to others. It did not matter one pin which party in Ireland was right and which was wrong; it was in his (the Duke of Welling ton's) judgment, sufficient ground for inquiry that the threats of murder had become so frequent in Ireland. ( Hear, hear.) But there were other grounds for the pro posed inquiry. He had, on a former occasion, pointed out the discrepancy between the returns of crime in Ireland made to their Lordships and to the other House of Par liament, He now held in his hand returns of the Inspec tors of Prisons, and the Clerks of the Peace ; and there was in 1837 a difference between 14,804 and 72,241. Lord PLUNKET—The Petty Session returns were included in one and not in the other. The Marquis of NORMANBY—I can't believe that. —(Laughter. He thought the Noble Lord, since he now spoke with so much pain—(Great laughter)—might have given the information he now gave with much more benefit to the public service on a previous occasion.—( Hear.) Lord L ISMO RE did not approve of all the appoint ments made by the Noble Marquis; but he thought the selection of the present Assistant Barrister of the county of Tipperary would cover a multitude of faults. With regard to the appointment of Mr. Brereton, the reason stated for his appointment was the the true one, and Mr. Breretoa would not accept of the situation in another county. He opposed the appointment of the Committee. The Marquis of NORM ANDY said that the reason of the non• appointment of Mr. Brereton was as bad been stated, and that Le had never varied from the rule he had laid down. The Marquis of WESTMEATH supported the ap pointment of the Committee, and grounded his support on the fact of twenty-six outrages having occured in the county of Westmeath since the month of February. The Noble Marquis then quoted a letter from a priest to an Hon. and Learned Gentleman, recommending a repeal of the Union, as proof of the existence of the Ribbon conspi racy, and complained of the manner in which the remon strances of the Magistrates of Westmeath had been treated, and stated that in many instances the penalties inflicted by them bad been remitta i by the Lord Lieutenant, in con sequence of which crime and outrage had increased. Not withstanding what had been stated, he was convinced there were Ribbonmen in the police, as he held in his hand a notice which had been stuck on a police station in his neighbourhood, recommending " the bloody d—d Peelers" to provide themselves with coffins, for having turned a Roman Catholic out of their body. Ile would relate another instance of outrage in which a person had sent a man to fetch some ale, who had been attacked by a party of ruffians who broke all the ale to pieces and ill-treated the mare—(Great laughter. ) It was not always safe to give names. So now he would give their Lordships the affidavit of blank, in the parish of , blank, in the county of Westmeath—(great laughter) who when at the chapel of so-and-so heard the Rev. Mr. Fuller say that so-and-so—( Great laughter)—had a gun. This information was particular enough, although some of their Lordsbies might not understand it.—( e.aughter.) However it would be all proved hereafter. The next case was that of a policeman in the county of Roscommon releasing a man from prison who had been committed by Lord Crofton. The man was interceded for by a Catholic priest. The misconduct was not punished. He ( Lord %V.) mentioned these as a few out of a multitude of facts, to show that the Govern ment of the Noble Marquis was not thought the same of at that side of the House as the other.—( :scat laughter.) He concluded by giving his hearty concur rence to the motion. The Earl of FINGAL believed in his conscience that the state of Ireland was progressive, that property had ad vanced in value, and that industry had increased.—( Hear, hear.) True, great crime still existed there. Even in Tipperary land had recently been sold at a very high price. Even the Noble Marquis of Westmeath had recantly pur chased an estate in that desperate county.—( Laughter. ) The Marquis of WE STME ATH--I sold half of that to Mr. Slignes, who was bullied out of it.—(Laughter.) The Earl of FINGAL—No doubt the Noble Mar qu!s sold it at an increased value.—( Laughter.) He did not think that the Catholic Bishop of Meath made the speech alluded to in the canal boat. He was too prudent and too civil a man to do such a thing.--( Laughter, and hear.) Lord MELBOURNE said that the debate had cer tainly been of a most comprehensive character ex tending to every thing from the highest affairs in the state to the aointment of a police man. ' Still the m a in questionpp before their Lordships was plain and short. The Noble Lord bad clearly the calendar—in_Weeford, Chief Justice Bush—in Tip perary, Baron l'ennefather—in Sligo, Judge Burton-: in Clare, Baron Foster —in Carlow, Baron Smitn in Limerick, Cork, Kildare, Roscommon, Down, King's County, the Learned Judges all coneratuted the Juries upon the paucity and lightness of the calen dar, generally stating that they felt called upon to make no observations whatever. What stronger evidence would their Lordships require of the diminution of crime in Ireland ? ( Hear, hear.) It they were to go into Committee surely this was the very evidence they were to rely upon.--(Hear,) The manner in which Baron Pennefather undertook the mission to Tipperary, at his (the Noble Marquis's) request, was one of the greatest instances of devotion to the cause. Their Lordships had had a great many references made to the state of Munster, and he would read part of a letter which he had received from Mr. Matthew Barrington, the Crown Solicitor, in which he stated that Clare and the surrounding counties were comparatively free from agrarian tumult, and that fever convictions had taken place there just now than bad been known for many years. In Lime rick, although he (the Noble Marquis) admitted, tranquil lity was not so well established as it was in many parts of Ireland, yet theta was more of it there now than there had been, and the general surface of the country presented a very general state of comparative tranquillity. In Cork, it appeared from the letter he had read, that the calendar was equally light there, although that had been hitherto one of the most disturbed counties. With regard to the other circuits the information of the Government was not complete, but in every county, according to the re turns, where the trials had been proceeded with, there had been no appearance of intimidation on the part of the witnesses, and the juries had decided in general according to the charges of the Learned Judges. The Noble Earl still said the present was an unparalleled:tate of the country. Did the Noble Earl re collect the year 1534, which was during the Government of the Noble and distinguished Marquis ( Anglesea), who had preceded him. A Rev, and eloquent Emissary, who was sent over to this country to inform the people of England the state Ireland was in, stated in Liver pool in 1834, that it was difficult to convey to this country a notion of the state of Ireland, hi which there was an abserce of all security for life and property. " Imagine," said that Rev. Gentleman, "yourself secure in every respect, as you might suppose, in your own house, at night, awl, having ascsntied your isolated habitation, you observe fires around you as numerous as those seen from Bire mingham to Wolverhampton, and at each fire there is a victim, then you will have but a faint idea of the unfortu nate condition of many parts of my unhappy country."— ( Hear.) This was bringing up to a very late date that comparison which the Noble Earl was now rather disposed to abstain from taking notice of. The Noble Earl had said he (the Noble Marquis) would not grapple with crime, and vindicate the law, but how had those who preceded him grappled with crime and vindicated the law? As he should not have another opportunity of addressing the House, he felt it necessary to anticipate some of the observations likely to be made against him ; especially as somewhat similar observations had been made elsewhere. One was in reference to his answer to the memorial of the Magistrates of Tipperary. It had been thought right merely to read a sentence from that answer, and to observe upon it, although that sentence was a truism. Their Lordships should hear in mind, what the memorial was, and that it was presented immediately after the murder of Mr. Weyland and Mr. Austin Cooper. (The Noble Marquis read an extract from it.) In the first place he would say there was no instance of any Juror ever haling suffered for any verdict he had given, and upon the whole, the result of the trials had produced an equal num ber of convictions, as compared with trials which had taken place before. In reference to the ancient custom of chal lenging Jurors, it seemed to be the opinions of the Magis trates who'siened the memorial, that the Government had abandoned that right even in any case of necessity, but that was an entire mistake, and his Noble and Learned Friend ( Lord Plunket) informed him that the practice prevailed when he was Attorney-General. With respect to this expression with reference to landlords, if it were sup posed that he meant to say they were bearing more hardly on their tenants than landlords had been in former times accustomed to do according to their tenures, he could only say that he never entertained any such inten tion, and that he had sufficiently explained himself after ' wards by that answer. He could not but suppose that the change of the situation of the forty-shilling freeholders would produce a very great alteration, and in that opinion he was sufficiently borne out by the language of Sir George Murray upon the discussion of the Catholic question in the House of Commons. lie now approached that melancholy and most distressing occurrence--the death of Lord Norbury, which had created a sensation and a sympathy so universal, but still that was a topic upon which he could say nothing as to the cause of it. He had, however, no evidence before him to cause him to think that that murder was the result of any extensive conspi racy. Indeed, looking at it in reference to what was proved before the Special Commission on the occasion of the murder of Mr. Weyland and Mr. Cooper, he was more inclined to regard it as the result of a local con spiracy, or of what they must consider as the atrocious system of revenge, for having disposed of lands. fie would allude, before going further, to the conduct of two gentlemen who had been instructed by the Government to inquire into circumstances attending that murder, and the Noble Earl opposite bad moved for the return of the appointment of these gentlemen, but which he had not thought proper to comment upon, although that return had been furnished. Those gentlemen (as we un derstood) were Mr. Brownrigg and Mr. Hayley, inspectors of the constabulary force, and men appointed to that situation upon testimonials of the highest description. They had discharged their duty in the most satisfactory manner—as he thought the Noble Lord oposite (Lord Charleville) would state, because he was at the spot on the occasion, and took the opportunity of then expressing Olfin, terms of the highest disapprobation of the,,Gswern-: ment; although, as he said, he supposedthose ; .ollepers bad reeerv~private instructions how to act—a sort of pro 'eeedieg.whieh he thought did not very well become even eti"oppenent to the Government. In reference to the meeting of the Queen's County Magistrates, he should be able to disprove every topic introduced by the Noble Lord---( dear, hear, and cheers.) As regarded the persons who had been guilty of shooting at Lord Bloomfield's steward; a very few days after he (the Noble Marquis) arrived in Ireland, Lord Bloomfield waited on him and handed to him a memorial signed by three cler gymen, and five justices of the peace, representing that as the extreme sentence of the law had been carried into effect on the principal offender, it would be better for the peace of the country that the other men should hay° their sentences commuted. He told him it was a serious offence, that he could not think of commuting it at that time, but that he would commit the Chia;Justice upon it. The report of the Chief Justice was, that there was nothing in the circumstances of the case to call for a commutation of the sentence, but that the con sideration of the peace of the country was a consideration for the Executive. Upon this he (the Noble Marquis) decided that the law should take its course. Four months afterwards he saw Lord Bloomfield, who told him that the feeling of the county on the subject was still stronger than it had been, and that it would be better that the sentence should be respired. He (the Noble Marquis) consulted Mr. Justice Perrin, who was very strongly in favour of a commutation. He (the Noble Marquis) was still reluctant, and he told Lord Bloomfield that he would commute the sentence the following spring provided the state of the country was better, and that Lord Bloomfield would then inform him that it was still expected to be bet ter. One year after this, when Lord Bloomfield came to him upon a new replication, he commuted the sentence to two months' imprisonment and hard labour. This then was the case which he was represented to have derided in a summary manner upon a memorial, because the Catholic peasantry had memorialized him, and the Catholic priests had interfered in favour of the prisoners.—( Hear, hear.) This statement was made by the Noble Earl, who living in the country ought to have informed himself of the fact before he had brought forward a charge against him upon it, and upon which charge a Noble Marquis, not then in his place, bad boldly reiter ated the accusation. It was but due to Lord Bloom field to say that he was so strongly sensible of the erroneous impression of the Noble Earl that he wrote to him upon Ma rquis) quis) also upon it, enclosing a copy of the letter ie the subject, and that he wrote to himself (the Noblel Mha sent to the Noble Earl. He would now refer t o another statement made by the Noble Earl with respect to t h e Murder of Lord Norbury ; he had stated that a person bad come to the gate for the purpose of making inquiry imme diately after the shot had been fired. Now the lodge keeper stated that the person she had met on that occasion was a native of that part of the country, he was not even an Irishman, but a Seotchman, an old soldier, who had been through the Peninsular war, and consequently had some experience in gun-shot wounds, and when he was told that a man had been shot, he proposed to go back to sec if he could do any good. This was the person con cerning whom the Noble Earl bad made this statement, concerning which he said he had evidence. But when asked by Mr. Brownrigg', be said he badhewhiehlaiacrdhd,shbeaeudnt thought it of no consequen ce, such was the inaccur acy of h the Noble Earl. There was another extraordinary thing with regard to the conduct ofthctism the ao Steward, adthat never yet been explained , the Steward, who bad na ev e er st t op ol p d ed hi t m he o a f ssa i s t Tin if ! lie only told him he might have There was another statement of the Noble his E Noblearl which had been made the foundation of an att ack b y and Learned Friend at the commencement of the Session, who on th e au thority of the Noble Earl h ad stated in proof of the existence of a conspiracy that it had been determined to h ntr de r who murder a man and a woman , up on which one of th e con spirators objected, not to committing ther hi crime of murder, but that it would be more convenient l f n o dnioetrotroo . General,mk not to to m mur der the woman, and thereupon th e murderin g the woman (Lord th was transferred to another, and ho n the man. Now this case vras perfeecsolie ty w to Normanby), and he had sent to who had no recollection of such a circumstance ever having occurred, and he then referred to the Crown-Solicitors on the six different circuits, who stated that no su c h case had occurred within their knowledge ; he was therefore satisfied the statement of the Noble Earl was unfounded. The Noble Earl had adduced as a proof of the existence of an extensive conspiracy in the county of Tipperary, the evidence on the trial of the murderers of M r . W ey _ land and M r . C oo p er b e fore the Special Commission, cer tainly that was a mos t a t r ocious crime, but not unparalleled. The case of the murder of Mr. Chadwick was a worse case, and of a somewhat similar nature ; but the evidence before the Special Commission in Tipperary offered no proof of the existence of a general conspiracy, and that Commission was very satisfactory as a proof that wit nesses would come forward and juries give verdicts according to evidence. There was another state ment to which he would allude with regard to th e Special Commission in Tipperary—he bad been accused of having commuted the sentences of certain prisoners because they had killed their victims with stones, and not with weapons. The case had been tried before Judge Perrin, and Judge Burton. H e (Lord M.) had received two memorials for commutation of sentence, but he had de cided that the law should take its course. The Jury had then memorialised in their favour, and he had referred that petition to the Judges stating his own opinion that the law should take its course, for the purpose of showing that plundered of arms; in Clare nightly meetings of armed men took place, and seven houses were burned. Instead of the convictions being 4-sths in proportion to the committals, as had been the case under his (the Marquis of Normanby's) Government, they were not one-fifth. He would next proceed to the year 1822, when the Marquis of Wellesley was Lord-Lieutenant. A dis patch from the Noble Marquis in that year stated that armed bodies of two hundred men on horseback were in the county of Cork—that troops had been attacked by peo ple coming out of chapel—that two hundred men had crossed in one body from Clare to Galway—then the re markable engagement between Lord Bantrey, at the head of a body of mounted gentlemen and soldiers and five hun dred of the people took place. There was this important difference between the conflicts of that time and those of the present—then it being before the Catholic Emancipation Act was passed, they were the attacks of Catholics against Protestants, now they were attacks arising from conspi racies for local purposes.—( Hear, hear.) 'When the Noble Earl addressed the House in the former period be attributed the disturbances of Ireland to absenteeism. Now he would attribute them to his (Lord N.'s) Govern ment. Now he would refer to the charges of Judges of Assize in different periods. In the year 1816 the calendar in the county o f Cl are conta i ne d 121 p r i son e r s—many for heinous crimes ; the Limerick calendar contained 123 prisoners, 23 of which were for murder; in the coun ties of Tipperary, Armagh, Louth, Galway, Donegal, and others, the Learned Judges universally com plained of the atrocious character of the crimes and the prisoners. In 1821 at the assizes of Monaghan, Mayo, Clonmel, Clare, Sligo, Louth, Longford, Cork, Limerick, Westmeath, Wicklow, Tipperary, Fer managh, and others, Judges M`Leland, Pennefather, Bur ton, Green, and others complained of the number and extent of the crimes. The calendar of one assizes in Cork for that year was 374 prisoners, 20 of whom were for murder. Now he would refer to the years 1836 and 1837; —in Louth, Chief Baron Joy had the satisfaction to con gratulate the jury upon the unprecedentedly light state of The Duke of WELLINGTON—Oh, I allowed for that —( Opposition cheers)—and that fact alone he thought was sufficient ground for inquiry.—( Hear.) Now there was admitted on all hands the existence of a Ribbon Society in Ireland—a Society bound by secret oaths and signs. The Government must have known for some time past the existence of this Society. How could they be justified, then, in talking of the tranquil and improved condition of Ireland.—( Hear.) The Noble Marquis, who had endea voured in some measure to make this a personal question, had at considerable length sought to vindicate certain of his appointments. With those appointments no fault had been found by the Noble Earl (Roden). But as the Go vernment were so eager in excluding from all offices Orangemen, were they equally zealous in excluding Rib bonmen ? No Orangemen were to be in the police. Were any Ribbonmen appointed ?—(No, from the Marquis of Normanby.) Then there was the Precursor Society, composed of individuals who subscribed their shilling a head towards the repeal of the Union, as members of a body of 60,000 or 2 000,000 of " fighting men ;" were any of these persons appointed to offices under the Irish Go vernment?—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) These were very important questions, which he (the Duke of Wellington) had a right to put, because at the present time it was highly desirable that strict impartiality should be preserved in Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) The Marquis of NO RMANBY—The Noble Duke bas put two questions to me, which I will answer distinctly. The Noble Duke inquires if I have appointed to offices under the Irish Government persons belonging to the Pre cursor body? I answer No.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from the Ministerial side.) The Noble Duke also asks if 1 had appointed Ribbonmen to Government offices ? My Lords, I think it is hardly necessary for me to answer that question seriously ; it could scarcely have been put seriously. But I have no hesitation in saying that I never made an appointment in favour of a person whom I knew to be a Ribbonman, nor would 1, on any account, do so.—( Hear, hear.) A Noisex LOItD on the Opposition side, asked if the Noble Nlarqus had not appointed to a Government office a Member of the late National Asssociation ?—(The Mar quis of Normanby, " Name.") He meant Mr. Pigot. The Marquis of NORMANB Y.—Mr. Pigot bad ceased to be a member of the National Association before be was appointed.—(" Oh, oh," from the Opposition.) The Earl of CHARLEVILLE then addressed the Reuse. He charged the Irish Government with having abandoned the privilege formerly exerted by the Crown-- of challenging jurors on criminal cases; and he went through a number of cases in which he complained of the inefficient measures taken to detect offenders ; alluding es pecially to the smallness of the rewards offered by the Lord Lieutenant, and of the apathy and disinclination to aid in the furthering of public justice evinced by the people of Ireland. It appeared by returns laid upon their Lordship's table, that crime had very much increased in Ireland since 1833. He would take the King's County as an instance, and it would be found that the number of persons committed for trial in the year 1832 was 271 ; in 1833 it was 428 ; in 1834 the number was 525 ; in 1835 it was 634 ; in 1836 it was 766, and in 1837 550. In the counties of Longford, Sligo, Tipperary, and Westmeath, there had also been an increase in the number of committals. In the month of January, on the first day cf the present year, Lord Norbury was murdered. He (Lord Charleville) went immediately to the spot, and in passing through the town he was met by a large multitude of persons shouting out " He is dead, be is dead," and great cheering. Now a Mem- ber of her Majesty's Government, (he believed Lord Mor peth) had stated that these exclamations had proceeded from some drunken persons coming out of a public house—but such was not the fact. The Noble Eart then went into a statement of the circumstances connected with the murder of Lord Norbury. as they have already been stated in the papers. He had discontinued to act any further in the case, in consequence cf having received a private letter, which stated that he was a marked-out man, as having been instrumental in having procured the committal of Macguire. The Noble Earl then read a great number of docu ments, but in such a low tone of voice that they were alto gether inaudible in the gallery. The NOBLE EARL proceeded to refer to the number of persons who had been pardoned by the Noble Marquis, ob serving, that out of 104 individuals convicted, nineteen were pardoned under surgeons' certificates, all of whom:had been afterwards convicted of other offences. The Noble Earl concluded by deprecating the course adopted by her Majesty's Government. The Marquis of NORMANBY explained. The Earl of RO S SMO RE came before their Lordships to remove from the peasantry of King's County the brand fixed up in them by the Lord Lieutenant of that county. They had never conspired together to murder their land. lords. The Lord Lieutenant of that county had brought forward no fact to justify such an accusation, or so sweep ing an assertion. A more industrious, loyal, or orderly set of people than the peasantry of Tullamore, were not to be • found in Ireland. The Noble Earl then read two letters for the purpose of disproving the statement of Earl Char leville relative to the threats of the 'peasantry of Tullamore and King's County. On the part of the people of Tulla more and the neighbouring county he would appeal to their Lordships whether an accidental drunken affray, as this appeared to have been, should be considered sufficient evi dence of the demoralization of the inhabitants of Tullamore ? The Government of the Noble Marquis had been found fault with for doing nothing to tranquillize that country, but in his humble opinion Ireland was fast pro gressing in political convalescence.—( Hear, hear.) He denied that crime had increased during the Noble Marquis's administration. Ile would not attempt to fol law the Noble Earl ( Roden), through his luminous s peech, but he would tell that Noble Earl that there were two classes of Protestants, one who would monopolize all to themselves, and the ether who were willing and anxious to share all their privileges with their fel. low-subjects.—(llear, hear.) The Noble Earl was not the representative of the latter class. He could assure the House that Ireland could not be tranquillized by agitators calling upon one party to trust in the Lord and keep their powder dry.—( Hear, hear.) The Irish did not consider that such language betokened any kind feeling towards themselves. They were told that the Catholics were com b;ning to overturn the Protestant Establishment in Ire land—they were told so the other night by a Noble and Lerrned Lord who himself had never been in Ireland. When then Irish were told that they were a race of cowards and as sassins and worse than 11:n(3°os—when they were told they were aliens in blood and religion, it was not to be expected that such language should reconcile them to their lot. Earl DONOUGIIMORE said he had told the Noble Marquis that the common law of the land would not be sufficient for his purposes, and had recommended him to amend the Arms' Act, and Major Warburton, in the course of one winder's day had found upwards of 100 stand of arms a few months after. He did not think the Noble Marquis was justified in entering into the particulars of the Memorial of the Magistrates, and direct Mr. Drummond to answer it with the bitterness he had done. It would be impossible to tranquillize Ireland without amending the Arms Act, and brieging in,not only the unregistered arms, but the registered arms also, as they were frequently lent out. The Judge at Clonmel haddrawn a frightful picture of the state of the county at the Assizes last week. The calendar contained several cases of murder, manslaughter, and conspiracy. The Assistant Barrister of the county of Tipperary had done every thin g in his power to suppress crime, and had it not beets for his exer. tions it would be almost impossible to live in that county. In the Memorial of the Magistrates of the 7th of April they state that the Jury were acting under terror, and that crime was increasing. The Noble Mar quis, to this memorial, answered, that all their complaints were groundless, the Crown had not given up the right of challenge, and that they were answerable fur all the out rages, from the manner in which they had used the rights of property, by the expulsion of the cotter tenantry. Now if the county was progressing in tranquillity, he would ask, why was a Special Commission issued ? In three months 25 homicides had occurred. If juries did their duty, why was the Commission issued? Because the Noble Marquis could select a different set of jurymen. He agreed that no matt should be challenged on account of his politics or religion, but small publicans should have been chal lenged as they had been this year by the High Sheriff. Another instance: On Saturday night week a pour old named Hanley, aged eighty-four years, was murdered within a mile and a half cf Nenagh, in the county Tippe rary. On the same night a man's house was attacked not far off. On the 9th of March shots were fired into the house of Mr. Ryan, whose brother, living in the town of Fcthard, had taken a few acres. The aggressors threat ened to shoot the brother if he did not give up the land. A few nights ago a shot was• fired into the house of the Rev. Mr. Berestord, near Donoughmore. The shot carried off the top of the couch on which his wife had just been sitting, and if she had remained no doubt the shot would have gone through her. That was another specimen of progressive tranquillity, he supposed.--(Laughter, and bear, hear.) Gentlemen in Tipperary could not now live in the lower part of their houses. He (Lord Donoughmore) would now refer to the recent police appointments. He bad no doubt they would show that the Noble Marquis had been grossly imposed upon. There was a Mr. Wm. Slattery recently appointed to the office of Chief Constable. He was about fifty years of age : some years since he kept a whiskey shop in the town of Tipperary ; he failed in business, and fled deeply in debt to Messrs. Wise, the distillers in Cork, and carrying off all the savings of several farmers. Was such an ap pointment judicious ?—(llcar, hear.) The next appoint ment was one William Walsh, of Clonmel, another broken down whiskey seller; a men who had lived under his (Lord D.'s) own nose.—(l d aughter.) This man was a gutter agent—the worst description of person possible.— ( Greater laughter.) Ha was an affidavit man at elections. This man had been convicted of selling spirits at illegal hours, yet he had sworn that no police officer was worthy of belief upon his oath.—(Hear, hear.) The next appoint ment was a Mr. Carter, who was selected in preference to an old and Gallant Officer, named Reardon, who had prosecuted a mamber of criminals to conviction. Mr. Car ter was a most respectable person, but he had never done any public service. He was made a stipendiary Magistrate, and most unfortunately for the Noble Marquis, he was nearly connected by marriage with a Learned Gentleman who had all the patronage of Ireland at his disposal.— (Laughter.) The next appointment was Mr. O'Brien, late apothecary, at Cashel; next a Paymaster of Police ; and now Stipendiary Magistrates—(Laughter.) He was appointed because there was a vacancy in the borough of Cashel: he could put a Member of Parliament into it.— (Laughter.) He (Lord D.) felt the greatest reluctance and pain in making those charges.—( Laughter. ) The Marquis of NORMANBY replied. There could not be a more efficient magistrate than Mr. O'Brien, though he ( Lord Normanby) did not know his original situation. He was not aware of Mr. Slattery's former situation ' • but there was no reason to regret his appointment. With respect to Mr.. Walsh, he believed that gentleman had received no appointment. Lord DONOUG M 0 R E —lt was stated at a public dinner at Clonmel. EVENING EDITION, t< 44 , stated the motion in his able speech, and his Friend's (Lo r d Normauby's) speech in reply was,- thought, most clear, most decisive, and most satisfact y. —( Hear, hear.) It would not, therefore, be necessct. -7 for him (Lord M.) to trouble their Lordships with more.. : than a few words. It struck him that the speech of di Noble Duke was a very bold one. He had said that there was nothing of censure, of inculpation, of condemnation, in that motion. Why, it was all censure and condemnation, and nothing else.—(Laughter, and hear.) He was sure that there was not a Noblc'Lord at the other side of the House who did not mean that the motion should be so— they meant, they expected nothing else from it. Good God ! an inquiry into the state of Ireland ! Now inquiry into the conduct of the Government would be something. But con. sidering bow much they had already inquired into the state of Ireland—how many Committees they had heard about the state of Ireland—how many thousand books, how many reams of reports and reviews they had had on the state of that country—was it possible that their Lordships should still expect anything new from a fresh inquiry into the state of Ireland ? In 1824 and 1E425 they had Committees of both Houses sitting for two Sessions on the state of Ireland. Since then they had had other Committees on every ques tion relating to Ireland. They had had a long Com mittee on Irish Tithes—a Committee on the state of Education in Ireland—and lastly, they had had most minute and complete local information about the state of Ireland, respecting its agriculture, its population, its peculiar characteristics and the causes of them, in the Re. port of the Commissioners under the Poor-law Bill. Now, after all those elaborate inquiries, must not every one of their Lordships be aware at least of the crimes and mis fortunes of Ireland ? although, perhaps, they could not propose a remedy, for the cases might in a great degree be deeply hidden in:, the breasts of the people. There was evidence to show that crime in Ireland had arisen chiefly from quarrels about land. It was also quite true fiat for many years human life had been disre garded in that country, and unquestionably there was the same anxiety to discover murderers and to give them up to justice as in this country. Still we in this country shoul,i not plume ourselves too hastily on this superiority. Tee murders were concealed i 0 Ireland because the people generally sympathised with the cause—they thought it was a matter of right. This feeling arose in a great degree from ancient hereditary feeling respecting the right of property. It would be difficult to eradicate this feeling. True, the utmost indignation against a murderer was generally felt in England ; still, the people of this country sometimes did sympathise in the case of the murderer, and then it was as difficult to prosecute the mur derer as in England, as for instance, when murder arose out of the strikes at the manufactories. When Mr. Ashton Has murdered at Staley Bridge in 1832, the people sy mpa_ thised in the eause,and they showed no anxiety tog ive hmiup. He (Lord M.) was sure the Noble Duke had mistaken very much in saying that the general number of homicides in Ireland was 700. It certainly was not more than from 230 to 260, and God knows that was enough. People who could philosophise on the matter would see that there was no more crimp in murderir7 Lord Norbury than any other person. Out of' doors he knew that the rank, station, and property, of the de ceased would make a great impression on the public mind, but he believed that was not the feeling of the House.— Hear.) The motion, if it were carried, would be a vote of censure upon the Government, with which the Noble Mar. quis was connected. The Noble Marquis was no more to blame for not having put down the Precursors than was another Noble Marquis for not having put don't the Catholic Association.—( Hear, hear.) As for the connection of the Government with the Learned Member for Dublin, he must say that he could not think of giving it up—certainly not.---(Laughter.) It was the business of . a Government to get all the strength it could.—( Laughter. But he was sure many persons would not support his Go- . vernment because that Hon. and Learned Gentleman was groundlessly said to be connected with it.---( Hoar.) He would oppose the motion for a Committee, because he could see no necessity for it. If it passed it would be a cen sure upon the Government, and would be followed by no light consequences. He would never like to call into question the prerogative of mercy.—( Hear, hear. ) He considered that the. granting of this Committee would be an interference with the exercise of the prerogative of mercy, and on that ground he should oppose the motion. Lord BROUGHAM said, that although he bad re mained in that House ever since 10 o'clock, he should have felt it necessary to offer their Lordships a few observations even had the speech of the Noble Viscount not placed the question on the basis on which it had placed it, he should have felt himself bound as a duty he owed to him self and his country, to state his reasons for voting against those with whom he usually voted on Jrish affairs, and giving his vote to those with whom he in general differed. In stating these grounds shortly and simply in order to get at the essence of the question, he should at once proceed to consider the statement given by the Noble Viscount, of the object of the motion of the Noble Earl. Nothing could be more different from its real object than the one ascribed to it by the Noble Viscount; it was not for a vague inquiry, without object and endless voyage, without com pass or chart over the vast ocean of Irish affairs, but a Committee of Inquiry as to the state of crime in Ireland. in which there was nothing vague or indeterminate ; end he would do the speakers on the other side the justice to say, that however much he might dill. r from them, yet in their speeches they bad strictly confined themselves to the terms of the motion. He would not shelter himself behind the base pretext that he did not impute blame to the Noble Marquis. Certain accusations had been made— those accusations had been denied—the denial had nut been made out satisfactorily, and the case was one demand ing further inquiry; they would not at once proceed to a vote of censure without further evidence, and to that .'x tent, and to that extent only, the vote he was about to give imputed blame to the Noble illarquis.—( r. ) The impression be (Lord B.) had from the returns which had been referred to, was that crime in Ireland had in creased. At the same time he acknowledged it was much more easy to misunderstand than to comprehend Irish returns.—(Hear, near, and laughter.) He was not one of those who called out for new laws; he did not think that the present laws having been executed with vigour, had failed in their object, and that new laws were therefore required. Neither did he think that the Precursor Society should be put down. That Society might be a foolish—or a mis chievous, or a beneficial Society—but it was a legal Societe. Still he was an enemy to that Society, because its name implied that it was precursory to the repeal of the Union.—( Hear, hear.) Whether the chry salis Society might hereafter expand into the mature vermin--(Laughter)—whether what was now merely ridiculous, might become offensive—was to be learnt from the conditions on which the Society was to act. To endeavour to obtain 50 or 60 new Members for Ireland, and take away an equal number from Great Britain, was in fact less feasible than a repeal of the Union. Disap proving of the Society, however, he would not attempt to foster it into importance by an unconstitutional law to put it down. Now the Noble Marquis (Normanby) had in his defence candidly admitted—what was no more than just— the excellence of the administrations of Lords Anglesea and Wellesley. But such was not the way in which the Noble Marquis had been defended in the House of Cnm mons. It had been represented that till the Noble Marquis took the Government of Ireland the country had been in a state of uncivilised barbarity—which was a very odious, and false, and unfounded imputation on preceding Governments of Ireland. He (Lord Brougham) could not consider anything more disgusting to his mind than the support received by the Administration of the Noble Viscount by a certain Honourable and Learned individual, on the ground—the professed, the alleged ground__ that the party which was headed by that individual— which had exerted their utmost poWer to oust Lord Grey's Government from office, and at last succeeded by a Court intrigue—that this party found the present Government 1 more incapable and inefficient.—(Hear, and cheers e) Their Lordships were the highest Court of Justice in the kingdom, and was it not fittest that this question respecting the Government of Ireland should be decided in their Lordships' House—for the prerogative of mercy was inseparably mingled with the administr,:tion of justice—both being alike the great duties of sovereignty. What was the case which had been brought fori4urd ? That great numbers of persons who had been tried, convicted, and sentenced, bad been C lieved from their sentences—in many cases without any communication with the Judges who tried the offenders. With whom the communication was laid it ,vas not for him (Lord Wougham) to say, but it was for their Lordships to inqure.—( Hear, hear.) The Judges of Ireland looked with anxiety for that inquiry„ from which it was utterly impossible to flinch.—( Hear.) The Noble Marquis (Normanby) bad, in his progress though Ireland, liberated some hundreds of convicts. Now he (Lord Brougham) would admit, that in every one of those cases the Noble Marquis made the rquiete inquiries at the proper quarter—that the Judges were ap plied to—that the officers of justice were examined—my , he would admit that in every one of those cases it was right that, on the proper inquiries, mercys s,on ici s be extended. He had made ample admit which lie believed to be altogether opposedt it be asserted __(Laughter, and hear, hear)—admissions , (Hear, hear.) Let it be proved ; n prisoner ally o P n l utnhkee authorityt) tha tfe his m itigation Of gaol through Ireland who deserved hr) wNaosblueoanodthLoaer3a.,rnaed Friend (Lord For, if Mercy was sentence.—( Laughter, and Hear, surely havo been ascertained that es :nerited the indulgence , not made as blind as Justice was represented t t l o re b l e a , a i d t t int were no other prisoners whosecas As prerogative of friend admi nistration cf justice—as a a friend to' of the Crown.—( Hear, hear.) ofa f t r h ie e nd of the admit would mercy— the brightest jewel in the Crown—as of no exercise of the mercy of ) rown, on any the Monarchy itself—he ( Lord o ß f ro t u h g e ham c (Cheers.) Let not the brightest jewel rice of a Viceroy, other than full inquiry and careful o i f nv ti e t s e ti c ga r t o i w en n .-- he of mercy was wor se, taunted to make a part in the pagan abused, degraded, prostituted, a t t ry th o e f was dammed un caprice a ap country by ( C thehe e r exercises. theof prerogativeurbitary — er aot e ic e l es c e h d eer t' s l . l ) indignation on the lfpower, or, longer l ' the to i fl ex ue is i t ie — e it e b f eca e m or e re s H u e t. iheriodt,shared by every honest corruption, mercy Hvee considered there was a prima givenvt hi e I N : c h il e mind in the country. id as their Lordships' House was 1 b to oli f e eeli d rig o so l f h ei e h eonest facie ease for inquiry, a' the proper Court fo r that i nves tigation, he trusted it wOlll be allowed to take place. bore testimony to the good e n d. , A N0131.E LORD which had resulted from the government of the Marq u i s o f Normanby to Ireland. Lord PLU NKET would revert to th e a d missions by his Noble and Learned Friend in the out set of made his argument. He would claim those admissions, although his Noble and Learned Friend had almost in the next breath sought to retract them. He would call the attention of the Noble Earl and of the Noble Duke, who said they did not mean this as a vote of censure, to the situation in which they were placed by the support of his Noble and Learned Frit nd, who supported the motion on the ground el its being a vote of censure. It weeild not be creditabie to this House if this motion ehould be carried by a coalition, acting together for such opposite reasons. It seemed that S tr ~~`'~. ' :. _ ~. 7 . — ,f , ;4. .. _. ''''' : cl 7 i ~...5 . .....4., ' f • > _ _ -;.;= '~~, 'O ll -,5)9" • Ise ley lon ith se, ish on r.)