The Sun. — London, England, 1845-06-03 00:00:00

. _en_ l' a. rin 1 7,-vs of the Protestant religion, and he would now submit r PrePosttien that it w absolutely impossible to maintain the s ~.• . 7 as their. , e In as i vas.-( Hear, hear.) In a paper lid Ilion Lordships'.table three days . ago,. they had been furni s hed stiliotolhat.,i.et!tate.-ot the present institution for the education .. of the lo t. "o-'atholle prieshood of Ireland, as found in December for Th e institution was represented as altogether insufficient to the Porpcses of education. The buildings were described it e in a state of rain ; and the accommodation was such that was imoo•sible to accommodate with common decency the Idttulents who attended there. The conveniences for study or cor n comfort were of the most imperfect character. I.t.bbee scifdrs. ors and others engaged in the duties of educating 0 _ ences ent were inadequately rewarded. In fact, the professors of li'erature, anil of theology were not paid leg,. er to common clerics • It also was stated that to render it possible , a -- car t Yon the invit.ution, even under these imperfect arrange dir, it was found necessary to send the students away This step was absolutely and in pord4r7t,:iihwesits-‘,l7eltia 9 4thing like cleanliness, . nd to suit the rasoZ t , , ath . s of the establishment. It curs necessary to or het ee institution for the uses of the Roman Cat ‘ l e io .e llc . , 4 , iie a ed--fo r it would he admitted they must have ec l quite iaa. :, arid if so it was evident that at ' , resent it was the;•.(lura...te for tl,e purpose. Her . Majesty's Govern y me t ri e , fe e ti a., `• Poposett that to an institution support te means 1 1, 0 a., of the great body of the people hit Ireland, m • e f . . id Le afforded so as to establish it on the sam . s7tt 'il'ag' "4 on the same principles as the otheyn All mustn"e ef ti e country formed for similar purposes. r. areal admit that the Roman Catholi t ecclesiastics exe . rci,ed , reasonable over the minds of the people, and if so, it was Pel le , le that their Lordships should endeavour to i te r h io nt e vans for their education. Such a course was called Vi e a h„,a,et to secure the peace and happiness of the eopeiore.oideinleavour to give the students at Maynpo r th those .re fo r wi . c t Ithieh belOorr to men who are to fill the stations of lire ie li t 'h they ate intended. They ought to have instructions t on to liss e Ztere and science as well as in theology-they ougt„, th e , _t.. apparatus and books which are necessary to d a o tt . ei t . tlaieitueettueiton in the various branches of scien . ce, an ene b e. si kaiek 3 Alfor the performance of their du . ties . asl 'Ne st • Y Lords, I am aware there is a prejudice kali, thecastitution and against those educated there. I existinghave _. s g to s i Yon this subject, except that an institution such as th e pttrepreSented to be in these papers could not have answered Th e ohrPase nhieh the Trish people had in view in instoutin . g sinn. the object of the measure Won thep is that of rai w. eo are ettaraeter of the instituand character of those oo h t _ rasyheietred there --that tire persons educated at A ay n h te tt bet the there-that station and respectability which we . allhave onn. tries, for' to the t i lt th wh o _ Roman Catholic clergymen in foreign c , 'a all of us entertain the highest respect, and to, ea J. 'nal be roen of education and manners, and era i rd 'allire e % e the influence which belon•es to them for the social I,44ot:tent of the people. If the measure has the effect of l 'el k i f e e tt e h a:h 'nen tor the ministry we shall have retidere th s toe' a. arya s a n d h s i t i t t i t b i troduring and recommending i t s'yd introducing and recommending this th Pej s tsot adoptian - I hope the measure willno -seristent with Pourare% religious principles, or likely to injure t hee r-Sl°!tt convictions oreligious estants.-( The Noble e lalreadyeattotothe detail of the measure which have ] been t ewd „ItresePea,te_dly before 's the . public.) , The annual gran evialulte azpetually recurring discussion.-( Hear. hear..) eau!tllerilea,,at.nothing can be more wise than making this for e le e n t a dapto get rid of those discussions which are the ec on o m y that it' of much ill-feeling and prejudice. I there. 1 ." 0 a 0 's desirable we should pass this Bill, if it of ose aat ether benefit than that of getting rid t 0 th is just . 114. discussions I have already said that the . gr . ant (444i4 s itßti° fl Was never considered to involve any religious °e a. n 0r Principle- and it cannot be considered to do so etite t i e But I b e , l e '' • t ali 4 h as it, l eave to remind your Lordships that this in- Yoe 1 twe et "en roaintamed fifty years.-( Hear, hear. ) - thee usr • y 3'ears of that period we were engaged in . war; Ll"end dnteletaned it since then for a long period of agitation, ' (iti ' 's'uni°4 of questions affecting the interests of Ire 'ie'l ag rlb icbie h You had the Catholic Association and other ~,,t'ercia'n-p:;lini'tvrilieh you have had to make enactments, to pass toast di-,o"'"'s, and other measures of that description. To the L 45 4'9llit..Tlston of all you put an end fifteen years age sllle s Sinop t hn, my Lords we cannot say that we have n %h. ". Very tranquil morrow of the day b n ... leh t h e „, state. dn the very i: of ear,,.-milvas passed, measures . we o r n etaken for the pur -5'4,1 o f t h e °si and agitation There th w e a q s ue n stion of the good deal 14. N thre' th e rlolt end d , e , •-•-( Hear, hear.) . . d particuarly in it-acuity about this question,. an r y . ]deal of i i 'ty i n ~,'' Years. Up to 1d43 there existed a ;,,00n tQe.ties ,'" f e Minds of some and terror in the minds of others. f r. tr etiaist. _ Hear, hear.' . ) Great attention was drawn to ir a ,% , . e saot ' r e t _ , and an efteet on the question was produced in 11,7411,1 e to _ e s? and a great many doubted that it would he b tumult and il es te, to _resist the attempt tiiat was made., , Lear, hear. ) tb l ,•ora s, ,2, - arrY the repeal of tine union. -(11 geeiii. enatever may be the opinion '4 ' 4 °l*Your Lord-hip ' Hou t ror de of the le al effect of se on ihe writ o er . eas• 'e the monthof a ' . ' 4 " tember ,41 hi s _eos -ugust or -ep . it is absolutely =- last, there is . no tZbl e to cart es who now doubts that 1.. oleoee in Ire \ eagsii isp ‘e r Y any measure by tumult an , cl 1 . a et ( t n eal , h sae is of the Government and the Par's'ament t it s tl'is ! at .) I believe that no man in his senses no s w .. 1 ° , 4, e act, and that we are, therefore, this day, in a _4 e tlia7eeatel'eettnil,ertake the consideration of this measure. wi lA , - a t a it e'Yettnued the grant for fifty years, and cannot . h Sotelawluet having the appearance of persecution.'Therean oil'aseYtTight millions of Catholics in Ireland, and I "e rd e s, I lo p he r _ern without religious instruction. My whisks I ,tioa, oonanitnous consent to the Bill of iisttlieboikee honour to propose the second reading. itti 11 % e e of CAMBRIDGE said that he could sit in ks l' i q t rt ltiee ' P d. give a silent not on a question of sue . h ammop ne nt of the i tte voe cii ! i ° the People of Ireland. He thought it o aoPtat afo't°l, measures which had ever been introduced is",isas,'tete ; and although he woud give in to none i his e 'h ol d Ne'eateent to the Protestant religion as established,h b P' t , th i '' C'rpt thQ question by his vote, and he really con f sid r r th ed e ';'lrifttflill:rnerit deserved the thanks of the House o fio 'e Pao tiorward. d him to differ tels 7 the "„'RODEN said that it had iev i e ntroduced this he hail 42'41e Duke tles, th e Member who h o their . L ff o o r r d d s e h t i l p h s' im ohi eet eto s l e to gie very earliest opportunita . n tre s n e : ee ed r a t° Neil' t h e Progress of this measure. that p att iN a , i4 rtlP, r di ug with an amendment before ueh theyw was s p r h o i - s `ith ;los - '' they should appoin . a Select Commitiee up r ep o il , e isir e • e ,, alto the nature of the ' instruction given inthe It kie tl : 6 s e cal n ta ar Y of Maynoeth, which . Parliament was now, o'nc'e of u s t.. 0 establish, by conferring on it a permanent ,iiiat li nten to ta, oeeristed that if in the course Nobleof discussion he Lords in ettle 0 '°!, ~,, b e atiteLnis entertained by many ties f' len ut th n l a t ut be forgiven, because he should have but ;) at° '4-'4 bloke- % I n who had no feeling for thesensibil o i f - Se tt bee tle a% '3/4°N Roden) had now for a long .. series s lo t V that ti- .44, ti ot o f , pr e he e h r a Ti t i h tir o f tha . t t o . r ne o n f n te te o n th t e .i r n H th ou e _ p , ar a b. n a d . L e Gala nte etant ought i i - Il"op ge of afa eotintry even to vote the snnual sum to et r e d to thi s Ync e ) , th• how much more, ore, then, should he remind Noble Lords :tilthittlt:osjas cot tein ten 'a d s e u t T e. He w b o e u fo t re, a mere tolerated if tt, .. i e die It. was intend tdo to be a State establishment, but , r %l State "e s , n ee, that intended would o not be under the supervision e itec,Poll e ; 'e eauld looknjot at this measure as one of me lau r e l anon' '; ° , l. a' question pounds, shillings, and \ Of 0, "' as a r e ji • On of . pence. He d cable oat, h e ~ glens question, and if the House wanted 4 ( d . the ta h s :,_° l lld refer them to the numerous petitions t i t . the bad himself presented-and they did not N 'itere the em of the middle classes only, s ti,„ ... 0 4 , were e VI th '°vver, -ronte from the higher, hii, er e fro _ g ades of society. There f a w r n n e d m re o ‘ p t ‘ h e n e e t r :- . t ed ?..to ls , intr. Church of England ;eap;ere each _,ePen'ents, from the Free Church men of . Scotland, „f a o ,, t joi n • uenotnination, for all had sunk minor diffe- N 1 te r ; ' e n what he w° old c all this holy union.-( Cheers.) liN iti toa,, try ":_ki to th e o pini u onsexpressed by the . great . men of tf a e eiiime a ni , e n Whom, if he named them, their Lordships 1% ht,,l•getii ge to be worthy to be quoted. One e etiere to in the House of Commnns some Ili,'ile ijb 4 a debate on a similar question, and he would d 'what he had li !ri ke t a t i t d. I t ! wof.reading a short quotation from . . letls el . II 's ea man who stood high in the opinion of tol h er I tric • e (Lord Roden) had the honour and the h.anp ir-eheri win g him well. He had loved him when s ati "' l s - s ril t ;17,i111'-oeloscret'o,ntheemegoarl s hen dead-and when he named hued * tll e ' r a d Stated with gureraetetrhafternvoouornethwaonultdhecoNinohcbl.dmlee teed est s-o r 0 _ eposite (Lord Brougham), , Il 'ilt:, d ,ta ra te urea him highly The Noble Lord tin n . p . r who knew him Soltteteilooteeiloa the from - . " of the word a speech delivered by Wilaam o t totl e a, ana t h e Year liloB, on the meaning 'tar as y, '"e length to which it should be extended ' 'al put h c e al compatible with the peace of society n o ferr H ed ilt d Il ! C e aTt. tht akime that great benefits had been co t he k "en - " li es of Ireland, from which Protestants ..te ki'lltire excluded • and he might merely (i re r, t e Iri:e'reet Sheiety, which had, he believed, done m b o d, k ti, e t i::a a e r' Al;tlote,ll:lnany other institution. Government . a li i teli sel lem e ~,, that society, and founded en r intsotrouninlys to a c tive n gtef to' e4ucation, which was contra e of ii, •,„oe hierarchy h ie ta t , gueeo erotestants also. It had been argued that_ . thereo,__ in that country, but y he believed tis i , tol rei a nds for this measure -one, that it would ~ivs e . ki th of erhi c a nd ; and the other, that it would extend the ble the At tapir cati on to the Irish eople Had it been received i •oe ie. ens e "Y the Irish themselves? He should just read 'llts. of of :igrptract from a letter of the Roman Catholic . I t t , t tb 4 t e 'ch .' rh , a lthi Dr. Higgins; and also a quotation from t qer i s Is eo ll ti nt. 7.;! hY,.an Nob I, riest in a different par , e l4 i heh has Vie le Lord read Dr. Hi gg ine s a ready appeared in all the journa_l . s. ti:elgllelis::idit.thatrsthis measure was dictates! by fear. lie t o lo b tity,, h v..'"te believed that it was dictated by a wish ' i t t el i N a. ttie n i Yhteek,hope that it would secure a cordial and forth I " t eP'n n t -nu nn• But no sooner had it gone down l a' et e e te es th aa t t e h a that Irish agitation could no . t be put 11 1 4tt kt ke g t the., + 'monster meetings were again and he had i "ts sr a the ."ing at Cork, another at Navin, proclaimed. e `eit the Cneonneement of a meeting to be ld on the I ell ea t e the protests o the Ist of Jnly.-(Cheers.)he Was that ti le th_ nts bf Ireland to be allowed-(Cheers) tli ti lea e %At spa Nip-tithe °Pon the anniversary of the great victory, 4 la, ' ea __glori ous , t'iZs iati ,T th e R n i.and immortal King William secured - , 1 ut gush nation, arid for the Roman Catholics te.., ( "es t at - s. ) , (r,r"-atongtt, which they ' never before possessed.- %Ns e se en JUst in her Majesty's Government to t allow lial t4 iiii e °n that Z i t° gave up their peaceful and loyal j 0 (ti l t' 0 to b e - e "_"Yo at the command of the Crown, to ailow ti t tl e ' 4 (714 . o insulted? Let him call back the recollec t, t th e ' I lea% Pee„,tY:s Government to what occurred in . 1842.- li t eet t 'tot o , p "nen the fury of aeitation was carried so far (1. 1 vr ik lttl Re a Ilts . ‘o.f Ireland quitted the country in hundreds, Ctlk.kt. L t Ahv :_,'," this country or in America,-( Hear . , r he t a e r - .) ,4' 15 5r) ..... ' ' r ule fe that drove those people to emote _ 4. l 4 ti va e iZer 1 13 , itior theirovernment showed its consciousness of kph the ~Z(ReapPl•eing the military force and fortifying esorte d to, :/ N ei tlit w as th e ar• ) strong measures werrr Iti • to ,_ a t i t he reveal agitation subsided, and t . he , Nal:teproe'e'red peace.--( Hear, hear.) Prosperity tlatttZt) hear, 4l ra l it e r t . , t was promoted, speculation received a 11.„ at . -`°s were Projected in every quarter.- ciqg t he ) .' a , soon as the declaration of the inteu ,va Si: it ,s;atiertnnent on this Bill were made known in ta a !!irr e ",: he ennead nevr life to agitation. In support of his 4 Stithitlttltrave7 an eztraet from the work of Mr. Inglis, the 4 . p ita ) holle r er, who was no friend to the Protestant Es lisZtt Rt °Pe r Yet it bote testimony to the fact, that the ran *iaehePt fi r th a' aßgravated by the education at Maynooth. 111 el t a l e j a a a eaisted in Spain, as he and every one who Vij l t : ie th eall t e l,;" kne w to their sorrow. - ( Cheers. ) He koa a tioa e eeiahit t , tt eotion . of the House to what hail taken le.„4.geesittipet se'l'os,oalarnrhoood of Dingle, in the Kerry,countyof vle ill o ted tl elae °, super them the Roman Catholic st tared he N iro ' ettperior rank, who was a magistrate, re etaeoeirsintch.,e(atkUatholic persuasion and joined the Estah illaTteitini thos'neete.) The Noble Lord then read the Area ‘+t sf, recnverts, addressed to the Lord Lieutenant, ' s' t he w th e 7 seeution which they had suffered in conse sth teeoptll7,,, rstateeoanscientious conduct. - ( Hear, proved ei ~ e e „ la w m in that memorial were p 4,4 i l t: el I; P it oy it'd he, therefore, sr d with Mr. high is. -i k _, po kr _ _, . ore, agr ee d 4,1 , , j,,.. ,ritoil ti;lee'tz"n thaYn7ina3S pain,tn l r e Anti-Protestant and ranco r he -( Hear, hear.) Itl°llNttitti", he l'°° ' R Catholics of his country a f t es t , tet t f r would 'lad not thitik that a further endowment o a l4o ta b r ej a to tn the e:iffdect that object. The Noble Lord then tk4 ,the4, t , t)'nt eitt e •"ee of Mr. O'Connell before a Parli t a . - . -1 1. - 'tett that In 1835, when that oentleman gave tes i tr ,t h h t t li ke I,ort,elo,eot italt.,,th.,: priests wholorlerly were . . educated l, o ot e „ sts atie osu strong Anti-Jacobin principles, ‘ W a ropl e oeated at Maynooth were more identified A le," IL.. cerw,' and cons f that pronerty. a, ) r eetioo equently had less o , r , d t oti ku• Nti t. , 4 liti, i afly called loyalty.-(" :fear, bear, an but tea 4 l r"hi PS might not perhaps be aware of the (l ady r e h a 'toenail Catholic had to endure, when he ellott oced that creed, but there was no such danger to the Protestant clergyman who thought fit to adopt the Roman Catholic persuasion. He knew that these unfor tunate men would be persecuted. He could not convince any man more to he patient than the poor Roman Catholic, who left that Church for conscience sake, to join the Protestant form of belief. Ile felt assured that no Roman Cath.olie Peer, who now heard him, coin(' do otherwise than believe that no Roman Catholic would he safe from persecution who had be come a Protestant. He had been lately present at a meeting held in Dublin, against this Bill; and there was a Roman Ca tholic priest who sa . d be had been at Maynooth. He was called on to state what he knew of that institution. He said that as far as the confessienal was concerned his mouth was sealed for ever; but he (Lord Roden) had now before him a coey of the statement that that gentleman made, and he would read it. ( Here the Noble Losd read the statement, by which is appeared that the party alluded to was represented to state that every species of evasion was resorted to in order to avoid taking the oath of allegiance, such as feigning illness, not kissing the book, repeating the words of the oath backwards, &e. &e. The statement was a very long one, but the whole tenor of it was to the same effect, namely, devices for evading the oath of allegiance "to a Protestant Sovereign." When the Noble Lord had concluded reading the document, he went on to say that after the meeting was over, the individual who made the statement offered to his Lord-hip to swear to the truth of it.) He (Lois' Roden) would ask, what was the cause of all this disaffection, but the system of education now in force in Maynooth? The Noble Duke who had in troduced this measure had not made the slightest allmeon to this system. If the doctrines taught a t M aynoot h were ultra montain doctrines—if they were the doctrines of Italy, then he would say they were at variance w ith a ll eg i ance to the Sovereign of this country by Irishmen.—( Hear, hear.) He would then ask, were not these grounds sufficient to warrant him in calling upon their Lordships to comply with his propo sition, namely, to appoint a Committee to inquire into the present system of education at Maynooth ?—( Hear, hear.) A commission of inquiry was appointed in the year 1825, for inquiring into the state of Ireland ; but that commission broke up without extending, their inquiry to Maynnoth. He was further justified in his demand for inquiry by the speech of Sir Robert Peel in 1849, when the Right Hon. Baronet said, in the debate on the Maynooth question, that he did not mean to contend that the system of education at Maynooth College was one which did not demand inquiry ; on the contrary, he (Sir H. Peel) would be most anxious for in quiry, and if that inquiry had taken place, he would vote for the grant with much more satisfaction. He ( Lord Roden) now advocated the same principle—namely, the necessity for inquiry, and he called for it in the name of the people of Eng land and the people of Scotland.—( Hear.) He would now fortify his argument by a still stronger ground—namely, by reading from the Eighth Report on the state of Maynooth, under the presidency of Dr. Crolly, the names of the books read at Maynooth College ; they were, Delahogue's Dogmatical Theology, and Bailey's Moral Tracts. The Noble Lord next read as extract from an appendix to a Parliamentary report of 1836, in which, he said, Dr. Machale denied that ultra-montaine doctrines were inculcated at Alasnooth, as they were not conducive to the allegiance of Irish subjects to the British Crown. The Noble Lord then referred to a letter of the Cardi nal Prefect of the Propaganda at Rome in the year 1796, and read an extract from it, with a view to show that in May nooth College the students were obliged to read " Thomas Aquinas" as one of their College books, and contended that those students were obliged to read that book, which he (Lord R.) would contend for it, contained nothing more nor less than ultra-montaine doctrines. Surely they would not give that suns to produce the disloyalty and misery which is so prevalent in that country. He would now give an extract from "Thomas Aquinas" to show the bearing and tendency of that theologian's opinions. With respect to the question How heretics should be treated ? ' he distinctly states that heretics should be punished with death ; and this is the divine who is called in Maynooth their divine master. In another book used there" MenoChius." the author of it, in reply to the question as to how heretics should be treated, refers to Maldonatus, who given it as his opinion that heretics should be put to death rather than thieves or mur derers, because the firmer destroyed the soul, but the latter took away only the life or property. This he says in his commentary on that passage of the Scriptures where allusion was made to the plucking up of the tares from the cood seed. Now that system of instruction to which he had called their attention at once accounted for the crimes and enormities which were committed by the poor of Ireland. He considered that he established sufficient grounds why they should hesitate before they continued or augmented that grant—until they knew what really was the system of in struction pursued in Maynooth. He would, in conclusion, re. fer to only one other authority—Mr. Alexander Knox. He was a person who knew the state of the case well, being Se cretary to Lard Castlereagh, and treasurer to Maynooth, to which office he was appointed by that Nobleman. This person said that the three first clergymen who were ap pointed professors of Maynooth were three refupee French priests, who had escaped from the rope and the lamp - post, and all the horrors of the French Revolution. The Noble Lord, having read a long statement of the opinions of Mr. Alexander in reference to the doctrines inculcated at May nooth, proceeded to say that he now thought he had grounds for maintaining that the ultra-montaine doctrines were still taught there.—( Hear, hear.) He would ask them what was there in that Bill to provide that the Gal. lican "doctrines should be substituted for the ultra montaine doctrines, or that the injunctions of the Cardinal*Pre feet of the Propaganda at Rome should not influence the 'trus tees of the college. In consideration of his poor Catholic fellow-countrymen he could not consent to that Bill. The Roman Catholic doctrines were dangerous, He had sworn, in common wirh some of their Lordships, that Catholic doctrines were idolatrous. He, therefore, believed in the truth of what he swore, and believing so, he could not consent to any mea sure that established or perpetuated them. Those who felt strongly on the subject were called illiberal and bigoted. and he had often heard it sail that he delighted in calling his Catholic friends idolators. He had lived many years among his Roman Catholic brethren. He had taken an active part against them. In 1829 he exerted himself to the utmost to prevent the admission of Roman Catholics to that and the other House. But he de fied any one to state that ever he uttered a harsh word against them. All he would say was, that if they could divest them selves of priestly influence, he would freely trust his life and property amongst them.—( Hear, hear.) The eyes of the community were on their Lordships. There never was such excitement in the country on any other subject, and much of the future happiness or misery of the country would depend upon the decision to which they would come upon that ques tion. The measure had been frequently argued as if the Ro man Catholics alone comprised the people of Ireland. The question of population had been glanced at by the Noble Duke, and he believed that his statements were nearly correct— namely, seven millions of Catholic. and one million and a half of Protestants and Dissenters. Although the latter were the minority they comprised those who had always displayed affection and loyalty to that country, and were to a man opposed to the repeal of the Union. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") Were they then to sacrifice that portion of their Irish subjects to the howl of the priesthood? The Protestants of Ireland thought they had been betrayed, and they now imagined that little else remained for them but to consult for the altar and their homes. —( Hear, hear. ) They asked them to put down agitation, and in the face of their entreaties their Lordships stood aloof and apathetic ; and they are disgusted at the policy which was pursued. When the day of trial arrives ( and it must arrive sooner than was expected) they would find the Protestants of freland true to the consti tution, and arrayed on the side of England. He should now move that, previous to the consideration of the Bill before the House, a Select Committee should be appointed to inquire and report to the House what were the class-books and books of reference used at Maynooth, and what was th e nature of the tenets and doctrinesinculcated there. After the most mature deliberation he had determined to with hold his consent from th e measure now introduced, rega r di ng it, as he did, as contrad ictor y to and subversive of they best principles of the Constitution, apart from all theological consi derations. In the latter view he would abstain from discuss ing the question, believing, as he did, that that House was a very unbecoming arena for polemical controversy, especially since the admission of Peers of a creed contemned by the articles and fundamental doctrines of the Anglican Church. When, however, he remembered the stat e of the Irish peasantry, moulded into disaffection toward England and her established religion by the teaching of their priests, and that from that class were selected the students subsequently devoted to ascetic instruction, he could not conceive a -system more cal culated to create and prolong error. As to the de fence in favour of the measure, that it would tend to the subsequent promotion of trade, by extending the opportunities of study and education , he should bein clined to give that argument some weight, did he see the slightest intimation of a change in the present objectionable system. Had he perceived such a change even prospectively held out, he should have hesitated in the record of his present vo'e, hut in the absence of all such pledge or anticipation, he believed that the increase of the present system would be but the encouragement of error, and its furtherance the promotion of principles repugnant to the Scriptures and the tenets of the Established Church. The framing of the Bill was one of the most important events in the history of this country. If the measure were passed, it would lead to the endowment of all religious systems. and would lead to the acknowledgement that the State was not a competent authority to judge on the sub ject of religion. This, he held, was the first step to link the State to the Roman Catholic religion. He would beg to remind their Lordships that the original endowment of Maynooth was not that it should lie considered a grant from the State, but merely as a perpetuation of the grants of pious individuals for the pur poses of Roman Catholic education. This view of the grant was supported by the Noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) when Sir Arthur Wellesley, and by a late pious and active op ponent of the detestable traffic of negro slavery, Mr. Stephens He judged not of the feelings of other parties, but pledged as he was to oppose all heresies and errors. and to call upon others to do the same, bow was it possible for him to support such an endowment as that proposed ? (Hear, hear.) It might be said that by supporting the Reg i u m Donuts' he was supporting Arianism, but if Arianism was taught at the College of Belfast, it was no part of the original understanding, whereas Mat nooth College was established avowedly to teach the doc trines if the Roman Catholic religion. With regard to the grants to the Roman Catholics of Canada, which had been re ferred to as a parallel case, he might say that that was not 'the case, as the grant to t h e Roman . Catholics here existed prior to the war b y which those colonies were united to the Crown of Great Britain. H . e gave full credit to her Majesty's Governme nt for the best in ' tentions in introducing this measure, and he admitted that it was brought forward by them to pacify the irritation and ex citement which prevailed in that country. He confessed that lie did not himself see what principle Ireland was to be governed on—( Hear, hear)—yet still he considered that whatever might be the difficulties of their position, they should act upon principle, leaving the result in the hands of the Great Ruler of Events. The Earl of St. GERMANS thought that the Noble Lord who had addressed the House, and the Right Reverend Prelate who had just sat down, had altogether mistaken the nature of the grant. If they looked at the Act of 1795, they would find that a provision was made for the education of the Roman Catholic priesthood. This grant, both before and after the Uuion, had been annually voted. It had been voted by every Parliament for the last fifty years, and thus, upon the faith of successive Protestant Parliaments, and, among others, by those in which Mr. Pitt was Prime Minister, had the grant been conceded ; and he (Lord Germans) did not see any distinc tion bet ween the grant as given heretofore, and as now proposed to be taken from the Consolidated Fund. With regard to the objections that had been urged against the system of educa tion pursued at Maynooth he would refer to the Commissioners that had inquired into the state of education in Ireland, and who had referred specially to Maynooth College. He stated the course of education pursued there was not such as had been represented, and bore evidence to the fact, that the doc trine of Divice allegiance and submission to the Pope in Itemporal affairs was not taught in that institution.—(Hear , hear.) There were, no doubt, many imperfections in the system of education pursued there, and parties who issued from thence had taken part in the violent political proceed ings which had recently distracted Ireland, but this evil had arisen from the meagre and imperfect system of education which had prevailed there, and which the present measure proposed to remedy. Was it a matter of astonishment that priests, placed in the midst of a starving population, and imperfectly educated, should he led away by the wiles of agitators? The Noble Earl alluded to Bishop Higgins; but Bishop Higgins was not a student at Maynooth, but had been educated at Rome or P ar is. The College was established when Jacobinical princi ples were rite, and there were a great many of them then—a very censiderable number indeed—inferior in rank and educa tion to the present class of Irish clergy, and who were called " hedge priests." he Irish priests were at least attentive to their flocks, and when pain and anguish wrung the brow" of THE SUN, LONDON, TITESDA the suffering members of their flock, the priest was fore most to minister to their spiritual and temporal necessities, and to console them.—( Hear.) Was it not worth while to make the proposa , d experiment and raise the priests of Ireland in the social as well as in the literary and scientific scale ? The Noble Earl did riot suggest any remedy, aad admitted that he knew of nothing which would be a •alu tary and permanent means of restoring tranquillity to that country. The Noble Earl complained of the defective state of the Protestant Church in Ireland, but he could hardly think a Church was deficient in a pecuniary point of view which, riot having a congregation of a million, enjoyed revenues to the amount of 600,0001.—( Hear, hear.) He la ould sit down by expressing an earnest hope that their Lordships would consent to the second reading of the Bill with an overwhelming majority.—(Cheers. ) The Duke of Al ANCHESTER thought Maynooth College rather tendril to keep the Irish people in a state of bondage and ignorance. Ile thought it was very important to know what the tendency of the doctrines of Maynooth really was, for a gentleman who had been professor at Maynooth said all the bishops of Ireland were Repealers. And yet, strange to ray, it was those same dis affected and disloyal men her Majesty's Government was about to patronise. The Noble Duke read several extracts, showing the state of crime in Ireland. ( The extracts were taken from the charges of judges appointed by the present Government—Baron Lefroy and others ) Six hundred and fifty-three offences were committed in six months, Baron Lefrov said, in one riding of Tipperary, and nor a fourth of the offenders hail been brought to conviction. Such was the moral condition of the peeple of Ireland. Now these were proofs that not only did the Roman Catholics conceal crime, but they also connived at it. The Noble Duke then read part, of the evidence taken before the House of Lords• to show that an Irish priest bad, from the altar, denounced those who had given evidence in a criminal case as informers and blood monger=. They were also told that, after the concessions of 1830,criaie had greatly increased; Whiteboyism trevailed, and, instigated by their priesthood, the populace evinced a deter mined opposition to the payment of tithes. In 1832 assas sinations arid murders were no longer rare, and in few in stances could the crimes be traced to the guilty parties ; and they knew, on unquestionable authority, that the teachers of the people were the great movers of crime. The doctrines taught at Itlaynooth all led to the consequences he had de tailed, because they were founded on Dens' theology. The doctrines of the Jesuits were discountenanced in other Catholic countries. But it was maintained in Ireland, and the books of the Jesuits wore class 'books in Maynooth. This led to the conduct of the Irish Catholic priests in giving absolution to a man before he has made restitution. This was (tarried so far in Ireland, that it had occurred when men convicted of Ribbonism were disposed to make restitution, the priest to whom they confessed had interfered to prevent them.—( Hear, hear.) If those doctrines were not taught at Maynooth, it would be only justice to the priests who governed that college to give them an opportunity of disproving the charges. —( Hear, hear.) Why was it that Romanism was more impracticable in Ireland than in other countries ? It was owing to the freedom of the British Constitution, which left tlie outer roan of the Romanist free, giving the priest the means of malc , ng his inner man more enslaved.—( Hear, and a laugh.) He spoke of Romanism now as a political, not as a religions, seheme.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that there ought to be an inquiry into the doctrines which the Govern ment was about to spread, before the Parliament should be called upon to give money for the purpose. There was the doctrine of " venial sin," which tended to weaken the morals of the people, and to lead them into so slight a disregard of the rights of property, that their own temporal interests were damaged at the same time as the interests of their souls, and they continued in starvation and misery whilst their souls were endangered. The doctrine of ' vel ial sin" kept the morals of the people so low as to deter eapital from going to the country He would occupy the House no longer than to declare his belief, that if even all the forfeited estates in Leland were restored to the Roman Catho lics, they could not be loyal to a Protestant Sovereign so long as the bulls to which he had referred remained in force. Lord B EA UM ON T protested against the charges made against his co-religionists. If the Noble Lord who spoke last believed that such doctrines as he charged the Roman Catholics with existed, he did not do his duty unless be called upon the Par liament to sweep such venom from the land. If such charges were true, toleration would be a crime. But when he listened to the authorities which the Noble Duke and the Noble Earl who spoke before him had made up their story from, he found that those Noble Lords knew nothing of the doc trines that were taught by the Catholic Church. Many of the dogmas charged upon the Church were the wily enuncia tions of statesmen for political purposes, and never had the countenance of the Church. Many of the questions involved in tkem were never for a moment entertained by the Church. The Noble Lord might as well have quoted from the book of any layman, and state such lay doctrines as of the highest ec clesia3tical authority. There was a medium between the doc trines of the Gallican Church and those of the Trans alpine or Transmontane party. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") The book upon which so much stress hail been laid by the Nobly Lords opposite had, in many particulars, been condemned by the Church in the most authoritative man ner. He would, therefore, if he might be allo, ed to use the term, give the lie most positively to the assertion, that the doctrines contained in that book (" Dens' Theology") were the docrines of the Church. Earl RODEN said he found the book in the catalogue of (he Mayoo()th class-books. Lord - li EA UM ON T said if the Noble Earl had heard him out he w ould have found that he was prepared to explain that circum stance. The students of theology were required to read over the antagonist works, and this book, as read in the College, was pre pared by an introduction, cautioning the students against the doctrines.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Even if this grant to Maynooth were refused, the College would flourish—the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland would flourish as it had hitherto done, in spite of every persecution —( Hear, hear)—and. however the Government of this country might ti y to lighten the poverty and improve the condition of that suffering people—( Hear, hear, hear)—unless the Noble Earl was prepared to take a backward step, he could not leave things as they were, but must take measures to elevate the op pressed Church, to improve the condition of the people, and to diminish the bitter antagonism between the two Churches.— (Hear, hear.) The more nearly the two Churches were brought to one level, the less would be the animosity between their members.—( Hear.) He had been in countries where the two communions worshipped in the same churches, and the utmost harmony prevailed amongst them.—( Hear. ) Let the Government of this country place the two Churches upon the same footing here as they were in the parts of Ger many to which he referred, and they would find the same cor diality to be the result. He should only add, that in speaking to this question he was placed in the dilemma either of speaking of it as he felt, or as an indication of something that was to follow in the same direction. This might alarm some ; but even at that risk he would rather do so than hold back and speak in a cautious or jesuitical manner.—( Hear, hear.) He did not mean to look upon it as a mere question of recon ciliation, for he did not think it would be sufficient to reconci . e the Roman Catholic priests, not to speak of the Catholic laity, of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) There was also something to be done for the laity, if this country meant to conciliate Ireland. He alluded to the Bill now before the other House for the extension of lay .education. Many men of high station, if well educated, might then take a turn for divinity, and having become good theologians they might enter Mavneoth College and become Catholic clergymen of the highest order.—( Hear. ) There was another subject which he would fain allude to. He did not wish to make this solely a religious question. It was well known that not only in Ireland but all over Europe, the poorer the clergy were, the greater their influ ence ; and theref .re on that ground this House should not hesitate to accede to the measure; for it would have the effect of elevating the character of the Irish clergy.— (Hear, hear.) With regard to the persecutions for consci ence sake, to which the Noble Lord opposite had alluded, he ( Lord Beaumont) fully agreed with the Noble Lord, that protection and respect should he extended to the religious opinions of all.—( Hear, hear.) Time was, when the clergy of Bavaria were most intolerant ; but now they were amongst the most liberal men of Europe.—( Hear, hear.) He would not further trespass on their Lordships ; but he could not sit down with rut expressing his gratitude to the Government for this measure, as a Roman Catholic, though it was no more than justice demanded, or was intended by those who preceded the present Government.—(Loud cheers.) Lord HARDWICK rose, and moved that the debate be then adjourned. Lord BROUGHAM thought, that if they adjourned to night, they would have to adjourn to-morrow night also. At any rate they should continue the debate for a few hours longer. Lord COLCHESTER moved that the debate be continued. The Marquis of CL AN RICARDE thought that an oppor tunity should be afforded to the Lord Bishop of Cashel to address their Lordships that night. The Bishop of CASHEL rose and said that if he spoke that night, he had one consolation to offer their Lordships, that he would not detain them so long as, in all probability, he would if they adjourned the Bill till to-morrow night.—(Great Lattghter. ) The doctrines taught at Alaynooth would, in his opinion, disgrace any religion. It was, he thought, a snliject of rejoicing that the clergy of their Church were educated as gentlemen, and were not merely stuffed with dogmatic theology. He would net detain them song. One point which he would refer to was the infu sion of the Jesuits into the institutions that were spreading over the i country. Taking everything into account, he would call uprn the Roman Catholic Members of that House to join with him in endeavouring to arrest the influence of the Jesuits, which was becoming so powerful and dangerous. But the main ground on which he felt himself called upon to oppose the Bill was his disinclination to be a party to the dissemina tion of error. He trusted he would express himself so as to give no offence to those Catholics who were in that House, but he could not help alluding to the respective meritsof the Church of Rome and the Reformed Church. They were long since tried and the verdict was given against the Church of Rome. That verdict was that the Church of Rome was superstitious and idolatrous. He felt that the Church of England had a refer ence to the Church of Rome which it had to no other Church, for it had come out from the Church of Rome in consequence of the errors which had crept into the latter. The ancients, when they pledged their friends, first of all drank themselves out of the cup, and on the same grounds he could never think of allowing others to drink of the moral cup of error which he refused to taste himself.—( Hear.) He doubted whether the principles of the measure were in con sonance with the eath tak e n b y th e S overe i gn, an d h e cou ld not conceive how any Minister could present a Bill for sig nature at that Throne which wa s u ph e ld a l one b y contrad i ctory belief. Anticipating that the present was but a commence ment of a principle that would result in the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church, and thus present the anomaly and the disgrace of a State endowing; two Churches of antagonist doctrines, because its Government believed none, he should record his solemn and . decided oppositi on aga i nst the Bill, and thereby redeem his pledge to his country and his God. With these sentiments he would conclude. Lord CLIFFORD said, he rose to ask a question of the Ri gh t Rev. Prelate, whether he knew the cont en t s o f t h e Bth Report of the Commissioners of Education? The Bishop of CASHEL—I do not. Lord CLIFFORD was of opinion that the Ri g h t R ev. Prelate was therefore not in a position to giv e a d e fi n i te opinion on the subject. He (Lord Clifford) would r e f er to the evidence of the Rev. Peter Kenny , one of the order o f J esu i ts, given before that Commission, who , on being asked respecting alleg,ance to the Pope, stated that their first allegiance was due to the Sovereign of the country.—( Hear, hear.) After this he could not see what objection could be urged against the system of education pursued at 11Iaynooth. The Earl of WINCHILSEA said it was too late to go further into the debate that night, but he would engage, on another evening, to prove to the Noble Lord, and to the House, that the very opposite doctrines were taught. The debate was then adjourned at One o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. .7wte 2. The SPEAKER. took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. The Chester Improvement Bill was read a third time and passed. The Stokenchnrch Road Bill was read a third time and passed. The Yoker Road Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. GISBORNE moved the third reading of the Midland Railway Bill ( Lincoln and Nottingham). Colonel ROLLESTONE presented a petition against the Bill, and moved, as an amendment, that the Bill should be read a third time that day week. The O'CONOR DON thought no benefit could be ob tained by postponing the third reading of the Bill. Mr. CHRISTOPHER hoped the House would not sane tion the postponement of the third reading of the Bill. If any party had not appeared before the Committee, it was their fault; but they would have an opportunity of appearing before a Committee in another place. _ _ . Sir J. P. RED opposed the postpcnement of the third reading of the Bill. _ _ Mr. — T. DUNCONIBE believed that the Bill was not necessary at all, and if his Gallant Friend had moved that the Bill should be read a third time that day three or six months, he would have voted with him ; as it was, he thought his Gallant Friend had good groundi for moving for delay. He believed there was not a single indi vidual in Nottingham who was in favour of this measure, which if carried into effect, would cross two high roads. If the Bill were postroned for a week no doubt some arrange ment would be made ihat would be satisfactory. M r . W. COLLETT supported the third reading of the Bill. Mr. MIJINTZ supported the third reading of the Bill. Lord WORSLEY trusted tl e Hon. Member for Notting hamshire would withdraw his motion. After some observations, the amendment was withdrawn, and the Bill was read a third time and passed. The Great Grimsby and Sheffi.tld Junctiln Railway Bill was read a third time and passed. On the motion of Sir J. TROLLOPE the Midland Rail way (S)ston to Peterborough) Bill was read a third time and passed. Molyneox's Estate Bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed. The Sottish Central Railway Bill was read a third time and passed. Air. METCALFE moved the third reading of the Neweas tle-upon-Tyne Coal Turn Bill. After some observations from Mr. LABOUCIIERE and Sir G. CLERK, Mr. T. DUNCOMBE suggested that the debate should be adjourned for a week. After a few observations from Sir G. Clerk, Mr. Labou. there, Lord G. Somerset, and Mr. H. flincle, the debate was adjourned to Thursday nest. _ The Southampton and Dorchester Railway Bill, the Kendal and Windermere Railway Bill, and the West London Railway Bill, were severally read a third tine and passed. The West London Railway Bill was read a second time. The Brighton, Lewes, and Hastings Railway Bill (Hast ings, Rye, and ANOrd Extension) was read a second time. GAME LAWS. Mr. BRIGHT presented several petitions against the Game Laws. FACTORY WORK. Mr. ➢IUNTZ presented several petitions from the West Riding of Yorkshire in favour of a Ten Hours' Bill. Mr. HUM E presented a petition, praying for a further limitation of the hours of labour. Mr. AGLIONBY presented a petition against the sale of intoxinating liquors on the Sabbath day. FIRE IN DOVER-STREET. Colonel J. WOOD wished to know whether the evidence connected with the late melancholy fire which took place in Dover-street, so far as it related to fire-escapes and Burnishing ladders, had, accordi iv, to the decision of the Co roner, been reported to the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that a report on that subject had not been laid officially before him. In reference to the policy of making public any cau tion against fire, that matter had been carefully con sidered some time ago. His Noble Friend at the head of the Woods and Forests had endeavoured to obtain from foreign countries all the information possible with re ference to prevention in these matters. There ought to be an especial establishment whose peculiar duty it should he to take precaution against fire.—( Hear.) He had not yet re ceived all the information which is was desirous to obtain, but when he should receive it it would be his duty to bring forward some substantial measure on the subject. MORNING, JUNE 3, 1845. Catholic-religion there rendered it incumbent that a better ' had yet been made for establishing a system of Mum-Jinn organisation should exist in any scheme of academical education amongst the middle classes of that country. It ap than was contemplated in that country. In England there was an peered to him that education always descender , . anti Executive Government which was respected by the people, never ascended. and as this Bill would give the blessings . f who paid a willing and ready obedience to it, and there were education to a class who had hitherto been unable to avail them established laws which were generally acquiesced in and o b e y e d selves of th e ex i st i ng system o f e d ucat i on, he was not indhex,: by the people of both E ng l an d and y Scotland, and there was a to oppose its second reading. lie could not, however. say thus Church in both those countries which was in the possession and much without at the same time regretting that some proles:ries exercise of great influence. There was also another relation, hail not been introduced into the Bill to provide for the reigioes that of landlord and tenant, which yielded the landlord the instruction of those young persons who were to be educated at du, fruits of industry, and extended to the tenant the blessings those colleges. The religious objection to the Bill might. of protection and peace in his avocations. If we look at all however, be easily obviated by Government extending those these relations as regards Ireland, we shall discover a very great clauses which sanctioned the voluntary endowment of theolo difference between th em . Th e E xecut i ve i n I re l and was vague gig al professo rs i n t h ese co ll eges. and unsatisfactory. The administration of the law was attended Captain B. OSBORNE could not understand how Hon. with danger and difficulty, and was unsafe. The Prime Minister Members who supported national education could oppose this of the Government had admitted there was ro confidence in the Bill, because, in his opinion, it rather extended that prin. administration of the law which gave satisfaction to the people ciple than otherwise. the real question, however, of Inland, and a similar objection would apply to the at issue he apprehended to be the propriety of este present Established Church in Ireland. The relation of bushing a system of mixed education and secular instruction: landlord and tenant, as it now existed, tended rather but he thought the arguments which had been applied to a to the commission of crime than to the good conduct mixed education could be as forcibly urged against the social of the people. On the subject of education, he thought that intercourse, in after life, of those who professed different re the various orders of the State ought to be united together, ligious opinions. There were certain elau3es in this Bill to and- any measure that had for its tendency the promoti on of which he was strongly opposed. Ile alluded to those clause: the good of either class should he adopted, so as to receive which placed the power of appointing professors to those eel the sanction of all parties. He held with a great proportion loges in the hands of the Government, for it appeared to him of the people of England that the Roman Catholic Church in that the Home-office was desirous of possessing as much pa- Ireland was ore of those powers by which great good mi g ht tronage as the Horse Guards. He regretted that he eas be promoted, and by which all the people there might be obliged to give the Government only a meagre rust united together in social brotherhood, and be reduced in obedi- port ; but while they were legislating upon this ence to authority, and to a feeling of just respect for the laws. subject, they ought at once to establish some central instit in The Roman Catholic Church, in his opinion, ought to he tion, like Tririty College, for the education of youth of eli consulted on any scheme for popular education in Ireland. sects and classes in Ireland, who might distinguish themselves The terms which they might demand might be extravagant, in one of those provincial establishments. but what to receive, and what to reject would be a matter of Mr. GL A DSTONE agreed with the Noble Lord the Mem mutual accommodation. The Academical Education Bill, her for the City of London, that this measure was an imperfect as it at present stood, created great distrust amongst the Re- one, but in the present existing state of things in Ireland. man Catholic Prelacy and priesthood in Ireland, and they where the religions opinions anti sentiments of the people were hail come t o a resulation, implying fear and distrust. that the so much divided, how was it possible that a measure of this faith and morals of the middle orders of people in Ireland kind could ever approximate to perfection, much less reach it-? would be endangered, and probably destroyed, by the proposed lie was not one of those ;the would join in forcing even a more measure; and unless these difficulties were resolved, the Roman p e rfect measure than this upon the Catholic clergy and laity Catholic clergy cm& not conscientiously recommend those against their wish, and it would he monstrous that on account persons who came to them for spi r it ua l advic e , t o send their of a mere majority of English voices to reruse the tender of that sons to the colleges it was proposed to found. He which would he considered a boon in Ireland. The Noble thought that the Roman Catholi c Prelates would receive Lord stated that be thought it desirable that th. Catholie little satisfaction from the vari o u s observation s that Prelates should be consulted on this measure, and stared had fallen from Hon. Members, in that Ho u s e , on the subject. that Archbishop Murray could gists most valuable advice to the They had been told that it was intended to ..put .down their Government. There might or might not have been such corn power with a strong hand. Observations had been used by the munication, as far as he knew ; whether it had taken place or Hon. Gentleman who had last sat down as to the system of not, or whether it was desirable or not that such consultation education pursued in Italy, and that at Verona pupils were in- sh old take place, he was rot prepared to say, but it was his strict ed in the principles of a faction whi c h was called ()Onion that very considerable weight should attach itself to the " Young Italy." He had also alluded to the educational plans wishes and views of the Irish people. With regard to the pursued in the Universities of Germany and France, but so far question of consultation with Roman Catholic prelate?, he from following the unwholesome precedents laid down by that should express an opinion a little beyond that of the Noble /lon. Member, he (Lord John Russell) would fly far from Lord in the course of a recent debate on the question of religion them and avoid them as precedents to be altogether avoided.— as relating te. Ireland. He thought that the Noble Lord the ( Hear, hear.) He would ask if no means could be suggested Member for Newark (fend John Manners) adverted to it as that would render the proposed meas u r e mo re acceptable to advantageous that a diplomatic relation should exist between the religious majority of Ireland. It had been objected to the this country and the see of Rome. He was of that opinion also, measure that it did not embrace a n y provi s i on f or religious for the original prohibition of that relationship was .not a pro education. They had been told by the Right Hon. Gentle- hibition on religious grounds, but en religious pounds.— man opposite that there were precedent s a n d analogies for in- (Cries of .. Hear, hear.") It may be said that that relationship ten talons of education without religion, but it appear e d to him ought to have been renewed long ago. He agreed that it was that the analogies had very little res em bl ance; an d the prece- rather late now, but in any measure like the one now under dents were without authority.—( Hear, hear.) The Right discussion, he thoueht that it was most unhap my, for a great Hon. Gentleman had said, with respect to the scheme s of edu- many reasons, that they should continue to refuse the este cation pursued at Oxford and Cambridge, that very little reli- blishment of a diplomatic relation and ordinary good feeling gious education prevailed in those establishment s , and yet they which existed not only between Christians but all civilised would not admit Dissenters into tho s e colle g i a t e institutions. nations, and which ought to exist with the Pope in particular, Before the reformation the hoads of those colleges were univer- on account of the religious position which he held. He only sally Roman Catholics, but duringthe reign of Henry VIII. they referred to the fact that a diplomatic relation had been in had been deprived of their appointments and sent adrift ; and again, existence, and that it existed nowt though unavowed, in con in the reign of Queen Mary, they had been reinstated in their sequence of the absolute necessity which a successful Govern places; and further, when Queen Elizabeth succeeded to the anent thought themselves unable to resist. It was said, awl throne, these professorships were resumed by persons profess- with a great appearance of truth, that on the question of edu-' ing the Protestant reformed religion, and it was provided that cation there ought Lobe a communication between the Govern religious instruction should form a main constituent of the edu- ment and the heads who represent the Roman Catholic people. cation taught in those universities. With respect to secular A rc hbi s h o p Murray might, for instance, when consulted, give education, it was not true that it was an evil unless accompanied th e ve ry best advice, and with the greatest ability, but his by religious education; and, in his opinion, it was a desirable au th or ity was not supreme ;it would be liable to be overruled thing.—(Hear, hear.) He would say, that no ma n who pos . by orders from the Court of Rome. The English Govern sessed the means detaining secular instruction without religious men t would then be in the position of having hound themselves education would refuse to avail himself of the means afforded. t o per so ns not of the highest authority. The Right Hon. There was. however, a difficulty in public education which Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, made al could not be easily resolved as to the classes who were to be lusiors to the University of Oxford, but he was of opinion instructed. He had given his support to the measure for este- that his information was rather ineorrect. It was 14 or 15 blishing the University of London, because he thought that years ago since he left that University, and fell, perhaps, under Disseeters, Roman Catholics, and others professing religious the same imputation as the Right Hon. Baronet; but he did opinions not congenital with those' entertained by the Este- not think that at that time religious instruction was insuffi- Wished Church, should not be deprived of the opportunity and cient. Before they became graduates in that university, they means of obtaining a collegiate education equal to the advan. were obliged to attend lectures on divinity. The great bulk tages which were derived from Oxford and Cambridge Univer- of instruction was given in the private rooms of the tutors, and sities, from which the individuals referred to were debarred. addressed to their particular pupils ; and that, perhaps, was the The London University possessed the power only of conferring most valuable instruction. That continued while they were degrees. There were various colleges in connexion with the undergraduates. As respected knowledge in religion, he did University belonging to the Independents, the Baptists, and not think that there was not an insufficient stock afforded others, where the peculiar tenets of th ose ssct s , as regarded when he considered that those who received it were about to religious matters, were conducted by theological professors. be Members of that House, or who were to be country h en- The case of analogy of this University and the Universities of tlemen, or lawyers, or persons filling the various relations of Scotland, where the religion differed only in ceremonial per- life: In point of thee sr he was of opinion that the measure formances from the Established Church, were not applicable to now before the House had fallen far short of measures which the condition of education in Ireland. In Ireland there was a had been formerly granted. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. university which was liberal to a certain extent, as far as re- Gladstone) then refer ed to the system adopted at the London garded its under-graduates, but with respect to the bestowal University, and to the effuses of Dr. Arnold to obtain the in of its honours it was separate and exclusive.—( Bean) He troduction of some amount of examination on the texts of Scrip would contend that that university could constitute no prece- titre, which s'aeuld be common to all Christians. Ile (Dr. dent for the establishment of the proposed educational system. Arnold) was nni prepared, however, to admit Jewe, but the The universities intended to be formed should differ in their plan now intended was to admit Jews. The different stages system and bearings from all the universities in Eng- o f Christianity were important to he known to the historical land, Ireland, or Scotland. They should be arranged student, whether Heathen or Christian. He might be on such principles as would suite the state of the country. The t o ld that that system was not as fit fer Ire- Hon. Member for Cork objected to the scheme because all the l en d as it was for England but he should sly that professors were to be nominated by the Government. If the it was mor e fit for Ireland than England, because the religious people of Ireland were willing to accept this arrangement, and distinctions in that country drove them to a greater extremity; were content that the professors should be so named, he had and because the dangers of that iystem were more likely to . nothing to say against the measure, bet the contrary was the arise in this country, where the religious discipline of relies;ons case. The people were afraid of the mal-influence likely to communities was lax and weak, than in a country where intli result from leaving the power altogether in the hands of the viduals were under personal religious discipline. The Right ' Administration. He (Lord J. Russell) could not see the lion. Gentleman then referred hack to the middle ages, Vilin great advantage to be derived from these colleges as at present it was not comptilsory upon the students at Oxford or Cam proposed, either looking to the state of Ireland, or regarding the bridge, as members of those Universities, to attend Isettires or principles on which the colleges were to be founded. He eon- worship, because there was no daily warship. The se seem of tended the Government ought to take advantage of the info- lecturing was no doubt a religious system, because it was ailini ' ence which the Roman Catholic clergy possessed. Ile would nistered in a religious spirit, but it was when those wirer sas lot secular instruction be given if sou leave out religious sities became colleges that the religious principle was applied. education, but if religious instruction be contemplated, The inns or halls in which the students were then received were let the Roman Catholics he consulted.—( Hear, hear.) originally nothing, more than boarding-houses, and did not at If you would give them authority to expel students who were all anproaeh to the character of colleges. He would beg to dissbedient to the orders of the Board they would get over the state, that those Hon. Members who opposed the system evil. But there remained another feature of the plan ; that was, adopted by the Government, were only enforcing, their own the feature of giving degrees of studentship at the University. private ennions.—( Hear. hear.) The policy which induced He thought that ought to form part of the plan. They had the Government to bring forward this measure was the same the Trinity College attached to an University able to give de- policy as that on which was founded the 21-ant to Maynooth. grecs, and consequently superior to these provincial institutions. lie ( Mr. Gladstone) gave his assent to this measure, not be- For these reasons he thought the plan crude and ill-digested, cause it accorded with his own private opinions, but because it and he thought that it would have been much better if they had was likely to be acceptable and useful to the people of Ireland, consulted the Roman Catholic Prelates, and others high in au- and was in consonance with the dictates of society. He saw thority in that Church; they would have had a much better many objections to the plan of the Noble Lord, and he thought prospect of coming to a favourable termination. He meant the object he had in view would not he gained by it. He such men as Archbishop Murray, a man whose fidelity to his considered the defects that had been complained of church was to him a high proof of his fidelity to the State ' • and m i g h t b e got over b y voluntary contributions. The had they taken such advice as his, the future w o uld h ave been Bill contained one principle of religious instruction, that much more clear and happy. The Presbyterians were, he be- was, providing rooms in which lectures might be delivered. hewed, favourable to the plan, but this did not give the advan- He thought secular education without religion was had, but tage which they obtained in the grant to Maynooth. That that was not the question before the House. There were usher went straight to its object, and was nest tainted with the points in which the question might be regarded. His Noble defect which this Bill would suffer from. Notwithstanding all Friend the Member for Newark had said. why not establish a these deficiencies, however, he could not agree with the Noble system of Roman Catholic education? Why if that was done Lord the Member for Newark in opposing the second reading t h ey of this Bill. He should vote for it because he thought it s o b- would be obliged to establish a system of Trinitarian edu cation, and perhaps a system of Arianism itself, and when he jest was a good one, and he believed that her Majesty's looked at the alternative, he thought they would be doing far Ministers would introduce such improvements into it in Com- more injury by adopting the plan of his Noble Friend th an mittee a; would render it much better than it now was. If that brought forward by the Government. Both on the those improvements were not introduced, they would be voting ground of principle and practicability he thought the their money for purposes which, year after year, would prove plan of the Noble Lord far inferior to that proposed by her less and less satisfactory, but he believed that these improve- Majesty's Ministers. After having passed the Maynnoth Bill, ments would be introduced, and he should, for these reasons, he thought they would be deserving of the reprehension of their vote for the second reading. constituents, if they preferred the plan of the Noble Lo r d t o Lord MAHON said that he should vote for the second that of the ' Government. He did not apprehend that there reading, but only because he expected great improvements was such difficulty in electing professors as had been anticipated would be introduced into it in Committee, and if those inn- by some Honourable Members. The Right Honourable Gen provements were not made, he should give his most strenuous tleman concluded by stating that amid a choice of difficulties he opposition to it on the third reading. In 1839, his negative should vote for the second reading of the Bill, in the firm be against the motion of that day had been overcome by a majo- lief that if its provisions were carried out good would result rity of only two, and he still thought that the sentiments from it. which he then expressed that no college could be complete Mr. WYSE did not think that sufficient information without religious instruction had been proved by experience to had been given to the House of the manner in which education be correct. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of the was to be carried on under the Lill. He was anxious that Home Department had said that the pupils could obtain reli- universities should not be turned into mere grammar schools. gious instruction on each day, but was it their inten- He admired that part of the plan which would tenth to o et e n th e tion that these colleges were to be schools for the towns only only university they had in Ireland to all. fie had cons; iered in which they were placed, or institutions for the this measure for many years, and though he had Some f lj.e provinces in which they were situated ? 1 f the tions to the details of the measure, he was as he had alway been latter, then certainly the argument that he had used favourable to the principle which would give a mixed sis'etn on this point fell to the ground. He was ready to move the of education, because he believed it would lead to the best re_ addition of this principle himself, or he was ready to assist any sults. The recognition of a system of academical education other amendment. Without the addition of the principle of was a great step gained in that House. He thought education religion, instruction would lose the best of its characteristics, ought to be based on religion and morality, and and become almost useless. They might, indeed, enlarge the the question was, would the Pill have that effeet mind and refine the intellect, but they would not correct the If these colleens were intended, he presumed they were, to be heart. He trusted, therefore, that her Maje s t y ' s Government not merely colleges for education, similar to that taught in the would consent to introduce this principl e into, their measure—to Universities, but what he considered of much more importance, introduce a principle w ith ou t whi c h it appeared to him it would to be colleges for the education of the middle classes in all the prove injurious rather than beneficial. industrial branches, they ought to take steps to secure as many Mr. A. HOPE said, that so far did he differ from what his students as possible, at as cheap a rate as was consistent with Noble Friend who had just sat down bad stated, that he the maintenanc e of the establishments. The most important hoped the measure would be so amended in Committee, part of the question was the appointment of the professors but he believed that it was so faulty that n o amendment could themselves. He thought it was of infinite importance, net render it available for the purpose for which it was professedly merely in reference to the colleges themselves, but with ref., intended, and it apparently was only the opening of a little rence to the whole march of Government with reference to the sluice, but it was the first step towards • the introduction social concord of the entire country, that if they were to have of that system from the Continent which rendered them, professors in these colleges, whatever their talent and ve in his opinion, so inferior to the universities of this country. quirements might be, they ought to be above suspicion. The Government entered office on the tacit understanding He could not give his assent to that portion of the Bill which that they would conduct the affairs of the country on the placed the power of nominating those professors exclusively in principles of Conservatism, and that they would uphold the the Crown. Any precedent for such a proceeding could not be Constitution in all its integrity. Yet in 1845 they had pro- found in any of the Universities of England and Scotland. mulgated a measure similar to the one introduced by the His views of the Bill were founded on objections which he Whig Government of 1825, which they had patched up in- considered applicable to it in its present state. He would be stead of re-constructing. He concluded by expressing his ready to give his assent to other principles connected with this intention of giving his most strenuous support to the amend- measure as a mere matter of education. There would be no ment of the Hon. Member for Newport. hope of religious spiritual equality in Ireland, unless you told Mr. M. MILNES explained that whenhe referred totheuni- the people that the religious feelings of their youth should not versifies of Oxford and Cambridge, he wished it to be under- be prejudiced in any way. He would not wish for an exclu stood that they were in a more efficient state than they had sively Roman Catholic College, or for an exclusively Preeby been for years before. terian College, but let it beequally free from religious influences Mr. V. STEWART thought that some kind cf education of every description. As regarded Maynooth, it was proeer was loudly called for in Ireland. Means had been taken to that its fundamental principles should remain unaltered, it wee give the higher classes of that country an efficient education, solely appropriated for the education of Roman Catholic whilst the education of the middle and lower classes had been priests, and to the furtherance of that object let it be ran comparatively neglected. He gave his best thanks to the Go- tinued. He could not admit that the Crown ought to interfere vernment, for having adopted a measure which would have the with the regulations of that University. The present pro effect of facilitating the progress of education in that country ; posed system of education would not administer satisfactorily and it was one which he thought was the best that could be to the requirements of the people. Whatever scheme was devised under the present cir cums t ances o f I re l an d. It founde d on j ust and l ib eral principles for the education butof the would have been folly to h ave recommen d e d a sys t em Ir i sh nat i on, should receive his most cord i al support ;the . of education at variance with the opi n io n s of the clergy, who establishment of such system must leave open the . ad_vantages had great influence over their flo c k s . It w as recomm en d e d by to he d er i ved from i t, equally, fu ll y, an d f a i r l y to all classes ns some that a system of mixed education should be adopted; but the community. if that were so, the Protestant Coll eg e o n one side, and th e M r. ACKL A ND o b serve d t h a t h e wou ld s h o rtly se • view the Roman Catholic clergy on the other, would oppose each other, means b y w hi c h i t was propose d t o carry the Acacl 'emical Edu and much of that good feeling whi c h subsisted between this cat i on measure . Hi t h er t o no Member who " d spoken on th e country and Ireland would be very much diminished in cause- su bj ect h a d expresse d hi s unqualified eseprobation of it.-- quence. The opinion held by m a ny of the Bishops, that if the (H ear .) Th e meas u r e had been so much dissected ari d education to be adopted was t o b e a m i xe d one , th a t they should pulled to pieces by different lion s Gentlemen, that only a bare have the appointment of all the professors was absurd With stump remained. There wan a great difficulty in dealing with respect to an assertion which had been made by the Right Hon. the question as regarded the assumption of an Hon. Member, Baronet the, Member for Oxford (Sir R. Ai. Inglis) that who concluded that the appointments to the professorships be under'stood attempts had been made to subvert the national should be placed distinctly on a religious footing. The result s.•hools of Ireland, he referred to the case of the Rev. Mr. would be that persons going into those colleges should have a M'Nee, who was censured by the Rev. Dr. D a vey, the Bishop religious education without one farthing tiering been paid for of to the principles on which the Bill l the seaside he interested himself in a school which was at - was founded, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the tended by a great number of Protesta n ts w hi c h the resident Home Department had quoted from the report published in clergyman bad neglected, because he differed with the system 183 G, that it was intended to frame the Bill on " sound prin. of education which was pursued in it, an d did no t t t l h e it his elides," it .had benenAbernoiuhgehrateafomrwe adrodwanstorethstaintig n u ll ' : e n n a n d " t s o o t t u t n u d s to I deal with sound principles it would be ad duty to attend it, and the children were consequeny io-efndtehreeidr tpirleinyci‘ivdeersen'gNolirahge visable to consider on what those principles rested. He eon liable to be educated in a faith different from that parents. Mr. HAMILTON would be sorry to give a silent vote upon tended that educational instruction should be left entirely ' to like the pre s ent; but he agreed with the Noble the willing selection of the recipients, and not thrust upon an n ord who had moved the amendment. that no system deserved them ; and he further considered it a perfect delusion to schemeat opoiftlicadnuscoaftitohne in R o l m re a la n n l., d it w ho it l h ia o c u l t ergy there. religion. He, tempt any the name of education that was not based upon therefore, could not a b so l u t e ly g i ve hi s assen t to every part of the interests anl consulting the measure of the Government; but, nevertheless, he agreed They will not receive an with the Hon. Member who had just sat down, that th ere without suspicion, h 3' a Mo 3 "ase ich they could not adopt The P.'t had met w were large masses of the Irish people attached to no p ar ti cu l ar fusel of the Iris ith the unanimous re- . religious sect, who would be glad to take advantage of these reel-- '• ... Bishops to adopt it. For these reaseses, not prig colleges, in the event of their being sanctioned by Park..- - • ~,suing it as a measure contradictory of ;hoes long and Great fforts had lately been made to --• because eeent. consistently entertained, itmongct the lower clams o r , - introduced it as in consonance with the ne ,omote education ment consistently 1' . "-- .. sae Irish people, but no attempt cessity of the times, and rendered compulsory by the pressure from without, but considering it in theory and pract they had the experience of the Scotch, Belfast, and colleges, though the latter he scarcely c ons id ere d i n po i nt— , sentiaily impolitic, he should, though reluctantly, recoesk, hc; v.tte against the second reading of the bill. inkTra entering this opposition it might be r e t orte d t h at h e simuld"•- ( I prof OS vi a better expedient; though he did not assent to that proposition,. he was-not. unprepared to give a sketch of what be considered would be a preferable, if not a benefical system. Ili, would suggest that an honest and fair attempt be made by Liu- Gov..' nment to induce parties well inclined in Ireland to ❑nits for the benefit of their respective Churches, and volun tarily to establish colleges and religious academical institutions. Stn.th a apt. in he believed would, under the sanction of a fos tering Government, prosper in itself, as withdrawing dissen sions and conciliating acrimonious feelings, and at the same time affording a feasible means of education and religion. In the ab s ence. h owe v er , o f anyt hi ng approaching to suc a Twin eirle, he could not assent to the present measure, althonAli. at 'lie same time, be protested against the conduct attributed to the Government.--( Hear, hear.) Mr. MORE OTERRALL regarded the princirle of ii 6 Fill as wholly dissimilar from that of the national education. i:, the latter the inpil remained under the surveillance of his , gents, and was I y them trained up in the religion they destred --ltd professed ; but in the measure now proposed the students ‘, ere wholly divested of authority or control. On political and ligious considerations, therefore, he felt it his dote to give his v.,te against the second reeding of the Bill. He regretted, !terefore, that he could net vote for the second reading of the 13,11. I" after a few words from Caet. I3ERNAL OSBORNE in :;placation, Sir R. PEEL s until he had heard the speech of the !light Hon. Gentleman I e thought whatever dill, renees of opinion might prevail oil the detaila of the measure that there Was a general concurrence in one sentiment—if the Govern ment could overcome the difficulties which had arisen !rem different religious creeds—( Hear. Lear)—and could ex tend academical education in Ireland, that it would be a gre; t h e ms— (Hear, hear.) His lion. Friend doubted whether that nectessi'y existed, and whether the institutions would effect e good that was interded. Looking to the population, he reigin now be assured that they could overcome the difficulties select: they had to encounter—that, looking to the state of Ire land—to the extent of the populaticn—an ample provision for aced:en:eat education was called for a , much as at Oxford. Cam ender', King's College, and other institutions in this country. They lad undertaken the educati in of the lower orders. 'they had 400 iestioniuns iu the country. with the pupils from the ege of 12 to 14. the most important period of all whose educa tion was to be superintended. They could not send them to Seetland, anti the question then was, were they to have esta blislaucets in Munster and Connaught or not, with the means of education? He would read an extract from a work of great Interest to all who had anything to do with the means of edu eat ion. The work was the composition of an eminent: proles or, Dr. Kane. It had been necessary to establish a geolo gins! professor, and they had appointed him because they It'd a strict confidence in him, and had no fear of the fulfilment of his duty. This was the person whom they had appointed to instruct the whole per,plo of Ireland, and they did not think that because he was a Roman Catholic he would pervert the office he had been ay. pointed to fill for sectarian purpeees. What was the opinion of Dr. Kane, given long before the establishment of those aca demical institutions was contemplated? What, he said. was the opinion of Dr. Kane with respect to the resources of Ire land and the means by which those resources were to be deve loped? He gave his opinion in the concluding chapters of his work. In the course of those ob , ervations he stated that his impression ;vas, that the want of capital was the bugbear of helmet. What Ireland wanted was a development of the industrial energies of the country. This would develupe the whole of the resources of Ireland.— ( Hear, hear.) It was this e liich led to the institution of the collegiate establishments. This was an answer to his Hon- Frieed the Member for Somersetshire, when he told him. that the instructive institutions of Ireland were to be founded on the principle that the instruction of the lower classes was to he confided to men who were in the confidence of the people. Among the youths who were there eaucated they were to give all the prestige of their early years, and to mix in the world with the impression that they were to mix with those with whom their early years were present. Supposing they had. altogether laid aside the question of religious education. still there were points which well deserved the observation of the House and peculiar to the country of which they were speak ing. They could not send the pupils to England or to Scot limit, and he thought that the best plan would be to institute :wider:deal institutions in Ireland. But what was the religious portion of the religious orders in that country, and what was their position with regard to the State. What was to be done w:th those professors of a moral and scientific character. 'fhe Ito!e of the youths of the country were to be instructed., and see citing to his Honourable Friends, there was to be a difference between the Roman Catholic anti the Protestant. The Presbyterians might make the same claim. and what would be the consequence of the principle which his lion. Friend the Member for Oxford ( Sir R. H. Ingli- adopted, and who styled the subject one of immense on.iiesseess. There were Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Pres b teeter. prejudices to grapple with in this matter. There was no poectistion of fifty years, as was the case with regard to Ma:at:stole There was here no awful delusion to be advocated in In, lame of religion. He was aware that he had stated the suleearee of the speech of his Honourable Friend the Member for Oxford—not the speech which he heel de livered, but the speech which he would have delivered if he hat beea apprised of all the circuaistances.—( Laughter.) The original proposal was that Government should only pat. tinily contribute to those institutions, and the grand juries of the • different counties should provide for these institutions, and the comeibutions of Gove rn m en t were t o d e p en d u p on the exteisa of the voluntary contributions. By the present measure, how ever. Government bound themselves to erect buildings and establish professorshinn and it was not unreasonable to call upon the parents of the children to be educated at these col leges to attend to their religious instruction. What was the religious instruction given at Harrow ? Was it done by a toaster giving a morning lecture on theology ? No ; the coarse hi this—the parents of the children ascertain the tunre.... cha racter of certain persons who act as tutcrs at Harrow, and if their inquirit s prove satisfactory the parents commit their children to 'he care of the tutor, and invest him with parentsl authority. Now was this much better ? Was it not mo e effectual than establishing a religious system of education. and why should not the same course betaken at these Colleges? It was the eeurse taken at the institution in Liver fool and, Bristol, where it had worked well ; and why should not the same system be extended to Ireland? But Parliament hafr, already sanctioned the extension of this system to Irele.nd, fur in Kilt) Parliament sanctioned the establishment o f an institution which was called the Belfast Academies/ In:tit u lion. that institution affords Oassical and mercaeno e s a uce _ tion to y out h s , di sconnecte d f rom all religkw, i nstruct i ons. Dr. Crony had borne his strong testimony ir, f avour of those institutions, and he w ou ld pl e d ge th e expee .ence of this distin guished prelate against the predictions of those Hon. Members who said the religious education l e t the youths to be brought tip at these colleges would be ne'glected. Dr. Crolly distinctly stated the religious education of th e pupils in the Belfast Irsti .e.d to. and a due and p roper regar d tution were strictly attend was paid tone various v.eligious principles of all who we:e edu cated at that establ ; nment. Now, this was Irish experience, and he—setting lt against the predictions which had been in dulged in, by some Honourable Members might add, that the only objection Dr. Crolly had against the Bel. fast institution was that it possessed professors of theo loge,: and divinity. Now, nothing had more surprised him than the opinion of the Irish Roman Catholic prelates. He had read the documents they had published on this measure, and nothing had filled him with so much surprise. Was it not monstrous to suppose that a youth professing Roman Catholic principles could not be instructed in theology except by a Roe man Catholic tutor. Now, this appeared to him to be •realty absurd ; but were not the youth belonging to the Established Church placed upon the same footing as those professing Roman Catholic principles ? But independently of this was it likely that a professor of anatomy, after describing the miracles of the working of the human body ; after describing how every artery was connected with the fibres of the human frame, would terminate his anatomical lecture. with an attempt to undermine the religious principles of hie puoils. He could not conceive it possible that a gentleman. holding the high station of professor of the sublime sciences est anatomy and astronomy should take advantage of the Petwer he -possessed ov er hi s pup il s to t urn th e i r m i n d s aga i nst those re ligious principles in whi c h they had bee n b roug h t up. —( Hear, hear.) lie thought that the plan would be incomplete, unless these colleges were incorporated with each other. The union of these institutions into one university would I.e preferable to the giving to each college the character of tin university. If the plan worked well, and met with confidence, some time hence would be the period for considering whether then they should be incorporated, and what power the universi ties should possess with respect to the giving of degrees, &c. They did not make any declaration then on that subject. The Crown would have the power even without the aid of Parliament of incorporating the EMl that versities, which would, of course, be the case if the colleges gave satisfaction. The measure was at present objected to, because it did not comprise every thing which might here_ o ftoounthdesetpliaffraerte,eat creeds of after be connected with it. These were the principles 012 lag (Vi.i.rliciuchrwtthaelceesamofeltroelatnhde. aconclusion,position con o s considering n po g the u:ahtei p oo e lre f i they had a better chance of making that system of religious education more acceptable to those whom it may me„.., mums. _ Hie t d h e e Iym professors,ici concern m c o e ar r y n trheattoiri resort professorstht oeytwh those sree colleges.belongingto Hon. Friend said that no system of education could aiiswer un less it was founded on a religious basis, but he should aslinit that religious instruction should ema nate from the Church of England. There were objec tions made by a high party in the Roman Catholic Church, but still notw'Astanding these objections, notwithstanding the opposition which by some portion of the laity was urged against this plan, he (Sir Robert Peel) yet had reason to think that there was a very considerable portion of intelligent,, and respectable men of all persuasions who were disposed grate fully to accept the proposal of the Government, and they trusted that experience would falsify the predictions which were 'urged against the measure. If they could carry on the system which prevailed in the national schools, if they could unite the youth of Ireland in one common system of education, h e be lieved that they would go far to soften The asperities Which on account of religious differences existed in social file its Ireland, they would alleviate the condition of the youth of Ireland, they would lay the fotuntation of the developmen t and improvement of those natttrat and material resources with which that country abounds, which had not been developed l ess from the want of capitol than from the want of that industrial and scientific knowledge which, combined with an instruction in religion, it eras the object of the Government to bestow. Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that he should say a. e s i h v a o c s i tl b s e t 6 ;x r p iv la a n te at a io n n d opfubhliiscdtiiffeesr.ingiliferoEmngtlliisoisle elizt3chattv_iohnonsillari ens' ). ;ted him to see thatthey, the Roman Catholics, had n o . a• .11iPZ in the way of undermining to fear from their Protestant stihtereszlee, toTthheartefrowmereeveorzespoerecthwothat pointswas fellow-countrymen. He was sorry to see that the present Bill was brought in in its present skeleton shape; they learned made ina n n n d t m he or n e pp w o i which he felt strongly opposed to, and which he would Oppo i on a future occasion if they were not amended. He was allud inge to the points contained in proviso in the 14th clause. He thought there could he no opposition to something of this kind, that persons when they entered the college should state. what were the religious opinions they held. He thought there could be no objection to that. He thought in endowing chapels there was a great deal in what the Right Hon. Baronet had said. He thought Ilpfpli the whole, with the alterations be had endeavoured to suggest, the Government measure was a, good one. He thought the Government should not hate the power of appointing the professors, but as things now were it would perhaps be better to leave the subject in the hands of the Coeernment. He regretted that while the measure had been brought forward the great evil of the exclusiveness of the Dub ha University should still exist. Mr. SHAW rose amid laud cries of "Divide, divide ,•' Ile (lid not entirely approve of the measure, but he had toot beard one propose a better for it, and he had not a better to propose himself. Ile thought, therefere, that he was not justi fied in refusing to give his assent to a measure brought forward under the auepicee of the Government.—( Heer, hear.) Sir tf. BLAKE would wee for the secons; reading, AY-though let seas not satisfied with tote Bill in its present form. 'fhe House then divided, when there appeared— For the motion . Against it Majority for the Second Reading —t":6s POOR-LAW—SCOTLAND. The Poorehnv Amendment (Scotland) Bill, was read a t ' ice 1 /6 :1 4'- ' 1: / Len vii 4; f 1 int-- ed "! NEW ZEALAND. HINDLEY wished to put a question to the Hon. Gen tleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies on the subject of a petition which had been received from New Zealand. It had been stated in that petition that a piece of land had been granted for the purposes of interment in New Zealand. This piece of ground had been used for interment, without reference to creed or sect, until the ar rival of the Bishop, who had prohibited the use of the ground fur such a purpose. He (Mr. Hindley) wished to ask if the Hon. Gentleman opposite had received any information on the subject ? Mr. HOPE said he had not. SCOTCH BANKING. Mr. P. M. STEWART inquired if the Government had any objection to postpone the Committee on the Scotch Banking for a week, by which time the opinion of the people of Scotland might be obtained upon it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that as the adjourned debate on the Irish Colleges Pill would have precedence that evening, the Scotch Banking, Bill could ❑ot be brought on wail a future day. The Government there fore intended to move the Committee on the Bill pro forma that evening, and to propose certain trifling amendments. The discussion, therefore, would be taker► at a future stage of the Bill. THE CASE OF MR. MEYER. Mr. HUME said he wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Depart- ment with respect to the case of Mr. Meyer, who was com mitted for trial for an assault, and for whom Mr. Twy ford, one of the magistrates at Bow-street, refused bail. Mr. Meyer was a most respectable man, and his case hid excited much attention on account of the peculiar circumstances connected with it. Now he ( Mr. Hume) wished to ask if the Right Hon. Baronet had inquired int• the circumstances, and what steps he had taken to prevent a repetition of such con duct on the part of Mr. Twyford ? Sir JAMES GRAHAM, who spoke in so low a tone that he was' at times scarcely audible in the gallery, said that his attention had been drawn to the case by the vestry of Marylebone. Mr. Meyer it appeared had been committed to prison and subsequently liberated, and the grand jury had ignored the bill on its coming before them. He had, therefore, called on Mr. Twyford for an explanation of the reasons which had induced him to commit %Ir. Meyer for trial. ILs explanation (so we understood) satisfied him ( Sir James Graham) that Mr. Twyiord had acted consi:tently. The remainder of the Right Hon. Baronet's statement was lost in the noise which prevailed in the House, and from the low tone of his voice. MEMBERS' DAYS. Mr. WARD said ; that seeing the Right Hon, Member for Taunton (Mr. Labouchere) in his place, he would beg to a;k him whether he would have any objection to postpone the motion which he had on the paper for to-morrow. He had himself a notice on the paper, which he had postponed for several days, and as there was now only one day in the week which was appropriated to private business, unless ho could obtain this favour he should have no opportunity of bringing his motion on at all. _ Mr. LAIsOUCHERE said, that though anxious to bring his motion before the House, yet in consideration of the notice of his lion. Friend he would heg to postpone his motion till a future day. BITABLE BEQUESTS' BILL. Mr. ROSS said he was anxious to correct a misrepresenta tion which hsd arisen in Ireland, respecting what he had stated concerning Mr. O'Connell. He did not say that Mr. O'Connell did not possess the confidence of the Irish pe , ple, but that what Mr. O'Connell had said was nut in accordance with the sentiments of the Roman Catholic Bishops of Ireland. MR. O'DRISCOLL. Sir T. FREAIANTLE, in ireply to an Hon. Member, said that he had heard to-day, from the Lord Chancellor, that he had felt it his d u ty to issue a supersedeas to remove Mr. O'Driscoll from the commission of the peace. CHRISTCHURCH COLLEGE, OXFORD. Mr. BLACKBURN said, that before the order of the day was read for the Academical Institutions in Ireland Bill, he was anxious to correct an insinuation which had been thrown out by the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department against the College of Christchurch at Oxford, in which he said that the students at that college were not required to attend any divinity lectures to: obtain a degree. He would state from the rules of the College that there Were divinity lectures on Mon day, Wednesday, and Friday in every week, immediately after chapel time, and he knew, of his own knowledge that many able men had been refused their degrees because they were unable to pass the divinity examination. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the Hon. Member was a much younger member of the University than himself. What he had said was that when at Oxford he had been neither advised nor compelled to attend divinity lectures during the two first years of his attendance, that was from 1810 to 1812. In the third year, however, he had been required to attend them, and that was the first year when those lectures were delivered. ACADEMICAL INSTITUTIONS—IRELAND. On the order of the day being read, Mr. M. MILNES said that though labouring under severe! indisposition, he would as briefly as possible state his opinions to the House. The Bill before the House was opposed upon two very different and distinct grounds, and with two very different and distinct objects. For one of them he entertained every respect, but he could not say so much for the other. The first was, the opposition of his Hon. Friends the Members for Oxford and Cambridge, which he might call the Protestant opposition. Now he could not help observing that this opposition came very u ngraciously from those Hon. Gentlemen, after their opposition to the Bill for the endowment of Mavnooth. They refused to give any education to the Catholics of Ireland, and now they ob jected to a Bill for educating the laity of Ireland. There was another line of objection ; his Hon. Friend said that this education ought not to be given unless it was founded on religion. He thought that if they were to examine the matter they would find that they did not use the word religion in the proper sense. They did not use the word religion in the sense in which the Roman Catholics would use it. They desired that that religion should be peculiarly and especially Protestant. They said that the Government must either establish colleges in Catholic Ireland on Protestant principles, or they will not consent to the colleges at all. His Right Hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge said that no education was sufficient unless founded on a religious basis; but he would not allow them that intellectual education, unless they should reserve to themselves the right of founding it on their own domestic and religious instruction, with which the Government did not think it proper to interfere. They must trust the academical education of the youth of Ire land to the Roman Catholic clergy of that country.—( Hear. ) They might make some restrictions in the system, but it would end in that. He appealed to what he had said both within and without that House that he hal always considered the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland able and devoted men, and that their only faults arose from their historical condition ; but they had been too long occupied in what he might term practical mat ters, than to promote the cultivation of literature and of sci ence. If the youths in the west or in the south were members of the Roman Catholic faith, it was only just that the professors should be Roman Catholics. With respect to an observation of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford, he could say that during the whole time he waa at that University he had never heard the subject of divinity mentioned. He would rejoice when Trinity College was placed on a wider field of competition. He thought that the course which the Roman Catholics of Ire land had taken with respect to this measure was one which was not calculated to advance the object they had in view. Let the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland exercise as it did its legiti mate, fair, and independent influence over the country. Let it extend over them its parental care—a care becoming the age and time they found it existing in—a care becoming the period of life to which this academical education was to be applied, and they might depend upon it the sad results anticipated by his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford would never come to pass. Lord J. RUSSELL quite agreed in one observation made by the Hon. Gentleman oho hail just sat down. Tbat Hon. Gentleman had said that the measure made no pretence to perfection. lie agreed with him in this, but he owned he did not think it a merit in the Bill. He owned it would have been better if the measure now brought before them had been less carelessly prepared, and bad led, as he thought it would have led, to the establishment of a complete system of education in Ireland. He said this because he acknowledg e d that the motives which had induced the bringing forward of this measure was to provide for the happiness of the people of Ire land. He agreed that the object was praiseworthy, and he differed widely from his Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford, who was one of the strongest objectors to this Bill, but at the same time, on a revision of the different provisions of the Bill, he could not but think that it still re quired much alteration and improvement to fit it for the objects for which it was intended. He did not consider the scheme recommended by her Majesty's Government would avail for the purposes to which it was ap propriated. As respected Ireland he thought that the Ron,ati I •:.•/ • .- • S