The Sun. — London, England, 1821-02-17 00:00:00

demanding, money from persons visiting West minster Abbey; •••'' • • - After a short reply from ,Mr. LENNiltli ; the attotiort was agreed - rto.- ORDNANCE ES'T'IMATES. Mr. Hunt rose, to call the attention- of - the House to the Ordnance .Estimates,. 'which were now submitted t o the House, and to exlain the reasons whi c h h ad induce d him t o bring. tpS5l ki I ject b e f ore the House;, He believed he should be able. to convince the House, before he sat down, that from the commencement of the late war up to the present time, no reduction what ever had taken place in the Ordnance Depart ment, notwithstanding the statement which had With made by t h e H on. Gentleman opposite.— Wrth respect to the manner in Which the Esti rnates of that department were made out, he could assure the - House, not only upon his own authority, hut upon the authority of 'every Corn ' Tnittee which had been appointed to examine and report upon the subject, that it ivas calculated to convey no information whatever as to the items. The Itouse,in point of fact,never had ally accoun t o f th e expenditure; they were called up on t o vo t e cer t a i n S tuns upon anEstimate in anticipation of the current Year,.and then at the end of the year the estimate s brought before - them in the gross, with scarcely any detail or specification of items. The House 'would be surprised to find that, upon a compari son of the Estimates for the last ten or twelve :Years, in no one instance did the -Estimate brought before the House correspond with the amount charged in, the Finance Account. He would take, for instance, the three -last - years ;- the Estimate for 1817 was 1,189,0004, and the sum charged in n the F inance A c c ounts for the year ending Ja buary- sth, 1818, was 1,435,000/., the difference ebtween the E st i mate and the actual expenditure ing 246,000/. I n 1818, ,the Estimate was 1; 200,0004 and the act ua l expenditure 1,400,0001. In 1819 the Estimate was ooapopi. and the amount in the last Finance Accounts was ; 12 5 , 38 7 °00 1. bei ng a di ff erence of 400,0001. which Auto in no way been accounted for. in that House. T hese f acts alone ought to induce th e H ouse call for a strict account of the manner " 1 which these sums were expended. There was another view in which this subject should be considered. In order -to ascertain at what rate the expenditure might be reduced, for re-' duced it must be, it was .necessary that the house should have some points of corriparison,- and with this view he would compare the present' rate o f r expenditure with the expenditure at a g iv en period before the last war. He requested the attention of the House to - the expenditure of the Ordnance Department in the years 1791, ?: 79 2 3 17D3, compared with that of the years 1818, 1819; and 1820. In 1791 - the expenditure li-as 5 06,0001.; in 1792, 419, 0 001. ; an d i n 1793, 1., 135°°0 /.; so th e 'average expenditure of th e ' -r ee Years was about 440,,000/. Let the House la Pare this with the expenditure of the three Y e ars. In 1818 it was 1,400,0001.; in 1819, m: °l Was 1,500,0 00! ; an d i n t h e present year i t aid be 1,501) would be found, I t n h fa ct, that the estimate lt of I_B2o exceeded Aso- esti mate of 1819' by near ly 200,0001. I L . t he esti mates were now laid before the )11Sg ) ber t par o it s eas qu i te im p o sajble for any Mem- "" what was going on in this ;rot and he should therefore lay a u n d f,s e 2 h is p resent motion by stating a few Items, in order tosheW the. House to what extent n H l'etr enchme n t was practicable. e should be able 1 , tde course of this inquiry' to satisfy the House, that no sooner was any retrenchment made in one department, than the amount, and more than the 'amount of that retrenchment; was immediately L thie d to dome other department. The salaries Artillery department amounted now to r --471 . more than the sum declared to be sufficient . i ll‘ the 13th Report of the Commissioners of Mi11,,a.17 ,, a . 1 7 Inquiry! In the year 1782, the whole of the, 1"11 establishment,. hiCluding the Tower and 14`I-rnall departments, was only 38,000/. In ' °G, When the Finance Committee laid their Re 'fort b efore the House, it was returned at 51 . ,618/.; t ,,,,, 1805 , it was fixed at 91,000/. ; in 1808, the. . 3° --fi xed bec a m e 104 , 000/. ;. an d s i x mont h s tw s er, it amounted' to one hundred and twenty.; th thousand pounds; We were now arrived at est e k s , i xtb year of peace, and . so far was this A i l aulishment from having been reduced, that the Th l gle item of the Tower and Pall-mall Depart \:at 'was nearly treble. What it was"' in the i r ar i il-:7o6.—There was a charge of 30,000!. Ivie l l' t l e s for length of services, a great part of Sum was given to the very individuals Who fall. ed -13,0001. charged for Me' Tower and, "" • - n•that this establishment , ar . p, tintnt , s. u formed didnot re ceive 20,000/., was now. the y re ceipt of 73,0001., a yea'!.-(Bear, hear .) ilyersun-1 charged under the head of Gratuitics fpm . (. 7d th e serious attention of the House. t. in th 2,3004'was first granted under this head ' I ' - e oni Yea r 1 .796, and it was expreSly stated to v the- e temp orary an d gran t e d. on accoun t o f xi,l„ustraordinary increase in the price of pro iraaacti " et the House mark the.progress:of this f rtb:n th e ' The sum was gradually increased to 8,000.. 1 796 till 1812, when it amounted. xt I: ne next y ear it became 9,6001.,1he Year 10 00 so 3 Oi then 15,00 , 4 , RII till 111 4, th e Ix . ' now amounted to • 30,0001. And grant e d - "Ilse would- observe, was a sum them' to tO this Department to enable meet the rise in the Pri ce pressure of - a temporary • of provisions! The Honourable Member Zeoceeded to quote a passage from the 13th ; nii •l' Qr "- of the Commissioners of Military In-. l ent, -In ' , recommending a reduction in this depart- After this recommendation he certainly, rld not praise the discretion of the Master 4?re e u eral o f t h e Ordnance..He begged to call attention of the house to the conduct of the Noble Duke.--l ii the year 1796, the Private S ecretary of the Master of the Ordnance, who Performed n o serv i ces for the public, and was ~t ne rely en gaged in the private a ff airs of the Mas -I,er-Ceneral, received a salary of 3001.- a year. rile salary of this Private 'Secretary had been in creased to 2,0001. a year, and the last Corn- Mitte e of that House made a great merit of reducing it from 2,0001. to I,AOO/. a- year. — The_ salary of the Poblic Secretary of the Mas ter-General of the Ordnance had been creased fourfold, the office of iris Inder-Se cretary having been . -declared useless, by a Committee of that ilonse; had been abolished, 'Mit dia , the House.,suppose that the salary of 3004. a year was therefore Saved' to the country No ; there _happened to, be two Clerks zn the' Office, and the 3001. a year was actually divide - a be tween them.----(Hear, hear'. ,andlaughterThe same profuse and 'profligate ,expenditure took place in every other branch of: thi's Department. .The Storekeeper at-Dover .had .received a salary of 5001., and had now retired upon a pension of 3301. a year.—The llonourable Gentleman op posite (Mr. Ward) had not denied the amount of the salary, but he, • (Mr. Hurrie) was' sorry to hear ,him contradict the statement of the Storekeeper having retired, beCause he - must have known that a person named Langley, a Freeman of Queenborough, was . appointed to succeed him. The salary of the Storekeeper at Dover, in the year 1706 i when he had much more duty to perform 'than at the present time, was only 1201., and it had been progres sively increased till it was now 500/. a year. The Hon. Member went on to chew that the amount of expenditure had increased in the same proportion in the "Colonial Departthents, by a comparison of items' in the year 1796 2 and at the present time, at 'Malta,' Gibraltar, Barbadoes; and the, Cape of GoOd Hope. There was a charge of 30001. a year for an -establishment for 'the ma nufacture of gunpowder - at Fevershani, where there was not a single barrel of gunpowder. In point of fact, the mills at Feversham had been let. In .1819, -at the period when there was much boast of economy, and after those mills were let, anew clork' ; of the name of Mackenaie, was appointed.—(Hear,hear !)—More than that, a Captain Hely was appointed an Inspector of Gunpowder, although there was no gunpo`ii'der to inspect.—(A lough.)—lf - the' Establishment at Feversham was got rid of, the Country would of only save 46001. a year, but it could dis .. • pose of the houses—for there, as well as at Sheerness, the various clerks have houses ; not that they reside there, but they rent them out to others, particularly at Sheerness, the clerks them selves residing alQucenborough.—(Hear.)—Even at Sheerness, an assistant, who had only two rooms, lets them out to a keeper of convicts, and resides himself at Queenborough. It was to be observed, that the Ordnance Clerks were suffered to vote at elections ; it would be for - the House to consider upon what grounds those persons were thus.qualitied,when persons holding similar situations in the Customs and the Stamps were incapacitated.--(fiear,hear, hear !)—There were three vessels employed in the Ordnance depart ment at Sheerness. Two of the Masters were, Jurats of Queenborough;-0 laugh.)—there were seldom more than one mien on board of them in time of peace, as they scarcely ever made a trip but in carryicg wood, the property of the public, to ,places where it had no riga-to be sent. Besides, there were the floating magazines, kept up at a considerable expence, and which never could be wanting, unless on some pressing emergency. The powder kept on . board must be deteriorated. But, as a proof of the sacrifice that was made inthat department to election purposes, the sixty-six persons receiving wages on beard that craft were all Freemen of Queenborough.--(llear, hear, hear !)- 7 -lle must, say that, such a disposilion of ,the public money was corruption in its broadest sense.— In the Duck-yards, if a poor labourer took two brass nails .he was- liable to transportation, but he could prove the fact that • Storekeepers could take them away with impunity in hoats-full.-:--- (Hear, hear o—At -Waltham Abbey there teas for the establishment 1,1131.; for repairs 7,0001. ; although not a thousand barrels of gunpoWder were manufactured there. There was another item of 45,0001. for gunners—how they were dis posed it was impossible to understand. At Wal- tham Abbey there was said to be stationed a Ser jeant, who kept a grocers' shop nine miles otr.— At Woolwich 4,0001. was paid to Clerks, a sum that exceeded the amount paid to all the individuals employed us artificers and labourers. --In these Estimates there were five items to the amount of 35,0001. for taking accounts of old stores. That money, he understood, was expend ed amongst persons especially sent from head quarters to the out depots, although each of these had its own local establishment which could discharge the duty. He begged to call the attention of the Hon. Member connected with the Ordnance (Mr. Ward) to one observa tion. What, he wished to know, prevented the returns of the Artillery and the corps of Artifi cers and Engineers ,from • being laid before the House in separate regiments, in_the same manner as the regiments of the line in the Army Esti mates ? It would afford the House great facility in understanding the details. He saw no objec- tion to such a:system instead of the return now made in the lump. lie next referrea, to the Civil Establishment of the College at Woolwich, which cost the country 7;7801. The Cadets had been / reduced by the present Master-General from 150 to 1,30, but he considered they were still too numerous: .With a half-pay amounting to 300,0001., and so many young officers anxious to be employ-ed ; he thought it not only expensive but injurious to the young men ihethselves to keep thatestablishment so high,partieularly where there were not fifty commissions in the year to be granted. In'the charge unaer 'Ow heads of ".ExtraOrdina rks" there was no other explanation 'but 'three words, viz'. Repairs, Current Services, and Con tingencies, while the amount was WB,OOOl. The charge for old 'Stores was 40,0001. at the very 'moment, too, when they were selling most valua ble stores. He trusted the House would obtain some information as to the Irish' Establishment of the Ordnance. The - expellee of 'that at Dublin amounted to 7,0001. while the amount of the ex penditure for the artificers and labourers through all Ireland did 'not - exceed 6,7001. In the .stating all these particulars; did not blame the Ho , . nourable Member. He found 'fault with the system. The important fact was to 'be recollected, 'that these officers received larger pay at that moment than during a period 'of extended warfare when 10 per cent.lncome Tax was deducted from their salaries. Taking also the increase of the value of money at 0 . or3o per cent., he might say that their salaries had .hi-en inCroased full 40. per cent.,----(Hear !)-4 - 12 had _no hesitation, in saying, that under a prOper •Systerr4 he could' see his way to a 'Peal:talon' df the 'resent galling taxation 'to the amount of five Millions..., Ile recommended that consideration to the Noble Lord Opposite (Castlereagh). Lee him not . . be deteived: by 'any apprehensions -of the loss of', patronage, for he may. depend on its that the fewer good things of that kind he had -to give' away, the greater the favour would be in - the dis tribution.---:-He then 'proceeded to remark 'npon the list of compensations, and said it 'contained the names of many persons who had not served loner periods than two, four, or five years. This, however, was quite consistent- with -the whole of the' system which he had felt it his duty to point out thus minutely' to the attention of the House ; he trustedl there would be no objection to the moaon which he 'was now: to submit, and if the lion. Gentleman opposite thonght proper to concede the information required by that mo tion, fie hoped thedetails - wonld . be . printed at once, and in such a way as to afford the information in the most salisfactoty shape. lie:concluded 'by moving that the Ordnance Estimates - for the present year be submitted' to 'the House in detail, disthignishiug in separate columns the amount of salaries to all officers, with the particular salary to each', the amount of expence in each department, with the total amount of the whole, distinguishing. every new (Alice since the year 1 - 793; also that returns he made in separate Columns 'of the• increase of salary and compensation to each - otlicer since the year 1796. Lord NUGENT seconded the motion. Mr. WAnn said, that the details reggired by he motion, when every particular should be en ,ered.into in such a way, that not a single figure could be kept back, would produce extrenie 'convenience, ,and create much useless trouble.— He had eXpected,_ that this subject would have been discussed in the regular course of Cam mittee, and not in single speeches between the Honourable Gentleman opposite . and ' himself. According to the us.lal and regular practice, the Estimates had been laid on the table ; but he was disinclined to furnish a separate paper for the in formation of thellonourable Gentleman and if the House agreed to that, he should have no objection to the motion. lie had hoped, that he should, not have had to enter into the details then, but after the speech of the Hon. Geatleman, containing, as it did, some correct statements, and some others very incorrect, he was much-surprised to find, that such a speech had followed the notice that had been given ; he did not deny the right which', the'Hon: Member had to enter upon the subject, but, lie could not help stating, that nothing could 1 be equal to his astonishment on - finding that he was involved in such a discussion after the notice by which the motion had-been preceded, The Hon. Methber had: chosen to go into a•very mi nute detail indeed ; he had commenced with the first article in the Estimates of 4`2,0001. of Salaries to Officers of the Tower and Pall-mall. Ile (Mr. Ward) had not their any .paper or do cument to which to refer, he had nothing to trust to except his memory, and yet the Hon. Member had come down backed by his friends, and elaborately prepared for the.discus sion,.; but no man had ever imposed a task so un reasonable on - another as he'hathin this instance, by making it necessary to follow the-course of his statements. If he (Mr. Ward) stood upon his right, he wOuld, under these circumstances, give such.an answer as lie might without any docurrieitt whatever; however he would endeavour to follow the - Right Honourable Member, and to sheW what a great deal of incorrectness he had been guilty of in many of his positions. In his very first observation there was the greatest inaccuracy. It was astonishing,notwithstandi - T the very great industry which his speech evidenced, that lie could have erred so far from the truth. Nothing more surprised him than to hear it boldly asserted, that, the reduction of the Estimates ,of this year upon the last . Was but 30001. I f the Hon. - Gentleman would'look to the .paper-again, he would find that the amount of that reduction was 53,0001: (-Hear, hear !)—The Honourable Member had also said, that the amount of the Estimate for this year wa5.1,500,0001. _ Mr. Humr said, that he stated it at 1,327,0001. Mr. WARD appealed to these who heard him ; but_said, if the lion. Gentleman now thought pro per to retract, he had no objection ; but never theless he had stated that the Estimates were 1,500,0001., and the reduction • but 3,0001.; whereas the fact was, that the Estimatvs amount ed to little more than thirteen hundred thousand; while the reduction was fifty-three thowand.— lie then went into the particulars of reduction, to shew that the fact was as he had alleged ; and On summing up the items to the amount of 3,000!. said, he saw the lion. Gentleman shake his head; but if he could then disprove what he advanced, he should sit down to hear his refutation. Mr. ft U . 34 1:-Go_on.-(Crie - s of order.) Mr. WARD- continued, and said, that •on this point his position was impregnable ;noless a sum than •53,0001. 'had been saved .On the estimates of laSt. year ; and, considering. the boldness with which the Honourable Gentleman had stated that the amount was but 3,0001.„- some idea might be formed.of the accuracy ofOther-a.ssertions 'in whicli he had so rashly and 'so profusely -indulg ed. It.was natural to 'think that his misttikes had been rather hurrierous in the course of the observations on -Which he had ventured, when he fell into so gross an - error at the very (Hear, 'hear, hear !)—What authority could then be given to his statements, unless itideed he thought proper • to quote 'his authority ,?Ue said he' had founded many of his observations upon -the Report of the Finance Committee, but he (Mr. W.) must inform him, that the Report of Finance Committee, when not followed up by any act or resolution's of the House,- was not chargeable on mi . ' , of the patties, while 'it *as but the opinion of . the Members of the Commit tee ; •be• Must be allowed to say, that the heads of those departments to which. their Opinion ap plied, were as good Judges as tkey - -sVOT of how the business of their respective offices should be dope. He did not object to any argUment being founded upon the opinion of the Vinatice•Com mittee, -lint' he, protested agailist their Report being , argUed upon As It It wag a Resointion or that.Hol4e 4 or the, laq of the land. The Ho nourable 11,Urnbe-c had objected to the article of the !rivants of - cavil - Officers, and his Objection was founded- upon the recommendation of the Finance Committee, hut, he past tell him that this •was a system of thirty ypars standing - , and it wits one of the modes of remuneratingrollicers, ,to allow them the advantage of having a la bourer as a servant. It .was, ie feet, part of the emoluthent of their office.- - He did -not contend for the propriety of the systein,'hut such it was, and the- person at the 'head of -the department was disposed to do away with it, and had actually put it in a way of being cured as this was a perquisite of the civil office enjoyed for 30 :years, the Noble Duke (Wellington) did not ,Propose to deprive any one of his legal right, for such it now was, but he had determined that no man for the future should be allowed the same privilege. (Hear I)—There was an lion: Member had itated an isolated fact, which he - Would then take notice or. :He: said, ;fiat the storekeeper of SheerneSslook possession:Of things to which he had no right, and argued that this was the gene ral practiee, while a poor labourer Might be transported for taking a brass nail. This fact, if it ever did Occur, ought not to have been lightly made the foundation on which to build so serious a charge against the Department. Of the fact he was himself in total ignorance ; if it was true, the officer must be punished—the inevitable consequence must be the loss of his situation, and toiler consequences 'not at all aereeable to the delinquent.=----(aear, hear !) t would, therefore, have been much more decorous in the Honourable. Member to have made this, fact known to the headSof that Department, -in or der that the due punishment might be inflicted on the offender, than to reserve it for the pnrpose of helping out a subject of declamation in that Hoese.—(Year, hear I)—The Hon. Gentleman had been, throughout his.speeeh, so exceedingly desultory—ehe had so bounded from one topic to another—had been so -immethodical in his pro gresi—so confused in his statements—touching upon one thing and then flying otl' to something else, without allowing the oppressed faculties of his hearers the benefit of one moment's clearness and order, that he (Mr.NV.) must be excused, if, in following him, he lost sight of method also, for the desultory manner of the arguthents : which lie was forced to pursue must be his apology. He bad stated that the heads of departments, while they reduced the salaries of clerks of-SO/. or 901. a year, raised their own salaries ; now the fact was, that the Salaries of some of those principal of ficers were, on the contrary, lowered. He bad stated that the salary Of the Master-General of the Ordnance had been _raised ,from 1,5001. to 3,0001. a year, and he argued upon the Myr°. priety of such an addition at a time when there should rather be a decrease. When the lion. Member gave an account of his own speech to the public, as he owned to him (Mr. W.) that on a former occasion he -did, when that account was -more 'incorrect,—(a laugh,)—there was no part of England which that speech might reach, where it might riot ire supposed that the Duke of Wellington:had -raised his own salary,-:---(Hear !) —or- that it had been so raised by his pre decessors, Lord Mulgtave or Lord Chatham ; but the fact was very different—the salary of the Master General was 15001. a year, from the reign of Elizabeth to the period of the uniou with Ireland. There was before that period a Master General of the Ordnance- in frelafid, but after'the• Union the offices were united, the two Boards were consolidated, .and the salary doubled. • This took place in the year ISo2—(hear, hear!) ; 'he heard .the Hon. G'en tleman cry hear; why, then, did he not state this, tied not leave it in such a way as to berais- UnderstOod by half the House? :The person who first received that salary was the MarquessCont wallis ; but as the statement NS'as made, this could not appear any more than the cause•of the increase. He had Made some. observations on other parts of the Board, as to-salaries and emo luments, but he 'would ask him if he questioned the fact, that the' emolurnents and salaries of se veral Offieers of the Board had been lowered — (I do, from Mr. Hume) F . —He would tell him then that his own emoluments had been reduced from 1,8001. to eleven hundred pounds a year.e— An Hon. Vrieed near him had suffered a reduc tion of 2001. per annum, and there were several other reductions which he enumerated ; but no correction of the mistakes of the Hon. Member: could correct his - disposition to mis-staterrient.— (A -laugh.) Thcre was one of those mis-state orients in the newspapers, where it was said that he (Mr. NV.) denied 'that the Storekeeper Of 'Dover'had a salary of 500/. a:year. He never. denied it. He stated that the Clerk of. the Ord.: nance bad not-retired, but never denied the salary: of 5001. a. year. The mis-statement had appeared: in The Times. This arose from the incorrect ness of the ,Hononrable ,Gentleman himself. -lie alleged that a Storekeeper who had not 1001. , a year, had been allowed to retire upon the enormous salary of 5001.-L-(11 ear, hear !)—lle met the Hen. Mernber soon after that statement appeared, and'said to him, that there was a mis-• take in a newspaper respecting what he stated, amid added, " you have nothing to do with it, for it is false ;" but be was Much surprised when -the 'Hon. Gentleman . answered, " I am sorry for. it, for I wrote it myself."—(Much laughter.) Ile (Mr. W.) now requested, if the Editor or Writer of The Times was in the Gallery, that he wOhld do him instice—(Corderl)--efor he could not expect it from the Honourable Member hirn.;. self. The fact was, that he denied the retire- Meet altogether, but the Report in the tstimatei shewed that the retiring salary from the' 5001. Was brii 330/. Ile' then proceeded, to observe upon, the statements respecting the Assistant-Clerks :n the Office of Pall-mall and the Tower, and'said, that 'they weredimittishing, and Were to be in time entirely reduced. fle denied that the public money was in any instance -sacrificed to purposes of pa- . tronage and corruption. The diminution' Which. had already taken Place underthe Duke of Wel lington, amounted to between thirteen and four teen thousand pounds ; all, however, had not yet , been done, which might and would be done ; but: the fact was, that nothing of that - corrupt influence 1 alluded to as being exerted With respect to the appointm.ait to situations in Queenhorough, had any existencz , .. Ow the routrary, when the phut I became vacant, the first question which the Duke' asked, was, eoull the place be dispensed. with ? and the consequence was, that whatever 'place could be. dipens , A with, was abolished. ;He could mentioa the Adjutancy and .General ship. of Gibraltar, for which many .-military characters of eminence bad • made. application, and yet it had been abolished. He :then observe:( - upon the gratuities on which . the Honourable Gentleman had dwelt s 6 much, and said, that they were - chiefly compensations for length of service; for • instance, the salary of rat storekeeper, which was originally 3001. was raised, for thirty. years T,ervice, to 5001. He then. explained what CV'ciS stated respecting the secretary, which he denied to be a private secretary of the Master-General, but a public secretary, ,WhO - had as confidential and responsible an office. as that of one- of the Under Secretaries of State.---Ele also observed, that although the Hon. Member had asserted that 271,0001. was consumed in re pairs, that actually only 80,0001. of that sum was expended on the works. A word or two with re - spect to the gratuities alluded to by the Han. Member. The Eng,riueer Officers had no barracks, no mess, no travelling expellees, beyond a certain. number of miles pet day, no allowance' of coals or candles, and therefore the gratuities alluded to were nothing more than a compensation for those prhations. He could assure the Hon. Member that he was quite ready to produce any accounts which might be cafled for, no matter how-minuteor detailed they might be. He (Mr. Ward) was as anxious as any man could be to Place the Ord nance Accounts under:the guardianship of Par- 'lament, and he pledged himself that the faget expence should be annually brought before' the House. The Honourable 111emb.2r had fount fault with the Military Academy, and with giving- Comthissions to the Cadets before the whole" of the half-pay list were 'employed. lie could not understand the force of that objection, unless the Honourable Member meant to say that :no Cadets should receive Commissions. A regula— tion had been made for filling' up all thx! higher Commissions from the half.pay list, while tho lower Commissions were given to Cadeti 4 ; and this regulation, he would venture to say, had given general satisfaction to all parties:--(Hear, hear D—With respect to the Professor'S. salary, he had only to observe, that it would be .laid before the -House, if called for ; but he did not, in bringing up the Estimates, conceive it neces • nary to _enter so minutely into detail. The lion. Member (Mr. Ward) proceeded to 'account for the expense of the 'Ordnance Establishment in by stating, that in that Establishment were included three, different Departments, whereas, at Sheerness, &c.,. similar. Departments were charged separately. It had been erge.d, that many persons ernplOyed at Sheerness,- and .occupying houses belonging to Government, sided principally at. Queenborough ;—this was certainly true, but not to the extent stated' by the. Hon.-Member (Mr. Hume). It should, however, be recollected, that a great navaL operation was now going, on at 'Sheerness,- iu conse quence- of which much of the ordinary business was suspended. Under these .eircutustances, it was not considered Wrong to.allow the persons now idle, but who would be shortly again. called into operation, to reside with their families at Queetiboromth, instead of ob!iging them to re main. in the house furnished to them .by Govern ment. The next charge made by the Hon. Mem ber was with rinpect to St. John's Wood. It -Was true that considerable expence was iricurre'd by keeping a brigade of artillery at that esta blishment. That building had been hired- by Government on a long lease, at a period when it Could: not have been known how long the war would last. They were now, however,_ anxious to get rid of the expence with which they had been Saddled,and would willingly let that build ing to the Hon. Member (Mr. Huine) at a very cheap rate indeed—if lie would-be so goodas to take it otf their hands.—(A-laugh.)—The Hon. Member (Mr. Ward) next our to the state ments' made relative to our expen.ces at Ceylon and . Trincomalee, and; contended that these expenses were absolutely necessary in order to secure the necessary supplies. for our - shippin.:;-. He denied and challenged the Honourable Mez:!. ber - to . shew - any . initanee of a clerk in the (ir;_c name Department having, after a service'of four years, :retired upon his full salary. There • was one other point ()Nile Hon„ Member's speech to which he wished to allude. He .(Mr. •Hume) said, that there was an expense of 6001. incurred - for .what-was called taking - or' hamiiig stores. — Phis, however, was stated in the. Honobrable Member's usual manner, that was to say,' incon sistently with the fact.—(Hear!)—He repeated that 'the lion. Member was. grossly incorrect in making such a statement. - The Net' was, that <when a ,storekeeper was changed, he gave in an account - of the stores which had been under his charge, which account was checked by that of a person employed to inspect the stores.- This could not be done by- the person so changed, and therefore it was deemed most expedient to send a person from London for the purpose. --(Hear, hear !)--.llost the'llonourable Member could call this.giving a man 500 i. forsellingolck stores, he was at -a loss to conceive., as 'in fact Che'staten)ent• was totally without foundation.—(Hear . , 'hear !). lie 'Protested against the whale of :the Ron. Member's statement, and he. Would leave .4 fo any fair and unprejudiced tuan . on, the.otliar of the Ilouse, to state Whether he r. Ward) had been fairly treated in being thus broUgl4,lo . 4t:gue ,upon the Estimates of severalyears wlthout.anydo.. cuMents,,or any preparation whatevt.T.---;(ljear!)... It was true that he had consented to the. notice of . . . the rnotion, but he had beennnfairly ;treated by being thus trepanned into su'ell a discussion with out' preparation.—(hear o—Before he"sit down, he 'wished to rnalte one other obsertatiob. If to Honourable Member Itished to draw a 'coin- - - parison between the' Orddanee Estimates of the present year and thOse of 179 - 3, he should have gone about it in a'different why. He 'should have taken it into his Consideration that the - orisces of things had doubled ; that the numberof t+le artil- lery hatrbeett doulikd,—that the pay of the trieic:-