The Sun. — London, England, 1839-04-20 00:00:00

.4E4 _~';~"'" L( , 4 4 , ri - „%----..- ~ r' , t .ii -l 'i 4 . J cst, ~. -, ' . . z .t.., fi•-•:-...---, EVENING EDITION f ministration. The leader of a formidable Opposition, al- tros t an overwhelming Opposition, thirsting for place and r; - ver—(theers and laughter)—had moved an amend \ snent to the resolution of the Noble Lord. To be sure, the Right Hon. Baronet did not move a vote of confidence either in himself or his party—(Laughter)—but he went Sue of his way to pay a compliment to the House of Lirds--a compliment which he (Mr. Duncombe) did not thirde that House dgaived, and which he was not wil ling' to pay it.—(r, hear.) Was this House pre. pared to become, as it was formerly, a deputy House of Lords.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to theik that this House ought not to do anything that had the appearance of questioning any of the proceed ings of Eliot Assembly. He did not believe there was an individual of this House who questioned the undoubted right of die House of Lords to institute any inquiry they thenight proper into any crime, outrage, or peccadillo of any men, woman, or child.—(Laughter)—in England, Ireland, or Scotland ; but because they thought proper to Institute such inquiry, was the House of Commons to be told that it was not fur fear of offending some 53 noble in dividjals, to express an opinion upon that breach of the Minlterial policy on which that factious attack had been made l'—( Hear, hear.) 'The Hon. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke, it his able and eloquent address, warned *is House not to enter into a collision with the House of Lords. He should like to know where was the Right Mon. Baronet's prudence, in 1832, when the Reform Dill was under discussion.—( Cheers.) But what was to be done in the midst of all this scramble of faction ? to the Right Hon. Baronet's Amendment he saw nothing to Ighich he could assent. He wished to gain in this sarefilible, something for the people—the Noble Lord's resolution did not go far enough, and therefore he pro posed, in the event of the Right Hon. Baronet's amend ;ete not taking effect, as an addition to the Noble Lord's solution, the following words :—" And that it is also expedient to effect such further reforms in the Represent ation of the people in Parliament, as shall conduce to their containment, and to the security and welfare of the king dom at large.' This was in fact very much like what be mimed on t he address, but it came before the House ithsles more auspicious circumstances, as no one now could say that it was uneourteous to the Crown. He had often heartl, Gentlemen in this House rejoice in the title of Whigs, some of them pure old Whigs—he shoald like to know was Mr. Fox a finality man ?—Did he entertain the doctrines that were now put forth, that there shonld be an end to Legislative improvement, as our ConsAtution was perfect. No I he acted exactly the re vieve•--.-42e was as advocate for a general extensioe of the staffrege, and shortening the duration of Parliaments, add he was Wee by exactly the same argu ments tha t Reformers were met with n ow , b u t hose * e treat such absurdities? He was for pro pane", and not standing still ' • but it might be said that Air. Fox did not lire to s e e a Reform Bill carried ; but Judging from his opinion of the arguments then used to re siit Reform, it was clear that his ideas of Whig principles were lot those now entertained. It had been stated in this House from the Treasury Bench, that he knew noway of governing the people but by pleasing the people, and there ( fore he would concede, and if he had not conceded suffi ' eient, he would concede more. He would not do Mr. Fox I thee injustice to believe that he would have said at this too t rrent; stand still. If he saw the present state of affairs— ; if he saw a reformed Government scarcely able to com mend a majority in a Reformed Parliament, which was therefore obliged to shape its measures so as to conciliate • the views and wishes of the anti-Reformers, he would not I have said the rneesure was perfect ; or if he had Se2Ti thou # setpds of individuals signing petitions in favour of the I 'esenerenen of the suffrage he would not have said i stand still. If Hon. Members thought this was an exaly,- ,' gerated state of the public feeling, let them try any public !pating in the metropolis. They might fly to Scotland, 1 ana Perliamentery Reform would meet them in Edin- I burgh. Go where they would they would find the same demand made for a reform of the Ref(); m Act—( Hear, 'befte)—Besines when the people carried Lord Grey's Go ,. vernment forward in the struggle of 1832. they looked with confidence to this House as the tribunal before whom their grievances should be heard. Now let them look at the eneduct of the House on the subject of the Corn-laws. )elrd qbey not within the course of a few weeks driven from the hai , thousands of intelligent petitioners with perfect j eemterhpt. Die they not scandalously refese to hear their co .plaints, saving that they knew the case better than the petitioners knew it themselves. Would they have dared to do this if they were more closely identlEd with:the people? No. The people said they had been promised ruspresentation instead of t o rdnation— fefirkm and pufity of election—but instead of this they were kept down by intimidation and corru p tion. If they ; co nld not deny this, away with all notionsof finality. The • Noble Lord asked what refbrms he (Mr. D.) proposed. This wan not the moment lor entering into details. It was of no use for him to propose remedies unleis the House admitted' remedies to be required, and if he r.anted au --authority for the course which he was now taking, he might refer to the conduct of the Noble Lord on the Corn her question. According to the terms of his motion he dig not feel called upon to go into details or calculations. Ii was Mae calling on a man to furnish himself eith mate rnal for builditog a house, when he had no ground whereon to ballet. Give him the ground—let them allow the J t Rotorua Bill to be inefficacious, and lie would give them plenty of remedies.—(Heir, hoer.) If they ' vtlihe teo far, let them be curtailed. IC by any chance they did pot go far enough, they could ea,ily be extenthd (Hear, hear.) It they only affirmed the principle, they lased sot be afraid of coming to the House for a vote of general approbation as se the whole policy of the Govern. grant. Let theta to truer to the people, and the people would be true to them.—( Hear, hear.) The people were not so unreasonable as sonic persons seemed to think them, " eye they Were impressed with the notion that when the court was against the Government, the Government slung to the people ; but that now the Court was with : the Geweroment, they turned their backs upon the people. --(War.) They were grateful to the Government for its 000 duct to their fellow-subjects in Ireland, but as regarded themeelresttey scarcely looked to it with hope. lie had often heard it said that no Government was strong unless based upon the affections of the people. If the House *rto of that opinion let them extend the basis of popular representation, in order to strengthen the stability of the institutions of the country. It was for these reasons that he proposed the amendment of which he had gi, en notice, feteling confident th at if h er Majesty ' s Government and „the Muse would agree to it that it would not only tend to promote the comfort of the people, bat add greatly to the welfare and security of the State.—( Hoar, hear.) iiir C. STYLE said that he felt called upon to vote in fAvour of the motion of the Noble Lord. If a decisicn should be come to by that House which would cast the Slightest degree of imputation on the Executive, of Ireland, or upon the continuance of the policy which had been adopted by Lord Norenanby, it would at once have the ef fect of destroying all prospect of ever being able to obtain for that country permanent or ultimate prosperity. He slid not deny that there existed in Ireland a state of crime far biol . /hold that which could be found in any country simi koly priced, but yet in that respect it was in a far more . se*iSfactory condition novr than it ever before had been. It was quite true that the Right Honourable Mem ber for Tarnworth had said he did not intend to impute to the policy of the present Government of Ireland the ex tent of crime that now prevailed there, but it was clear from the speeches of every Irish Member on that side of the House, that it was the it intention to attribute to the Government every crime said outrage which had been com- Notsted intthat country for - the last four years. But it was not by villifying the Marquis of Normanby, the Marquis .of Anglesea, or the Itlvirq uis of Wellesley, who all in :tiseir turn had been villified by Hon. Members opposite, , that the Hduse could An ive at a true knowledge of the cause of crime in Ireland. They must look through the records of centuries of the misrule of that country, to be enabled to trace those cau ens. The Government had been charged with even tcreeni a 1; murderers,whereas he was in possession of d eta il s that v ro aid show the utmost anxiety on the part of Lord•Normanley's Government to bring offenders of every des cr i pt i on to justice in every possible case. 11. ui° then stated th at t h e co ncl n was that the charges :against gainst th e Government f Ireland s arose from a series of exaggerations and in:metes acies respecting the circumstan sae connected with crine ?. The entire period of Lord Wellesley's Lord Lieute a antcy was one of fearful outrage and crime, yet there we re not then any popular Assoc:a lions, and then the E:zecutive Government bad the strongest powers vest( of in them. Beginning with yes." 1811, he proceeded - to 1814, when, according to a speech of the Right Hen.. -Baronet the Member for Tam worth, in those counties that had lately been the scenes of • the severest punishments, p articularly the Queen's County ' and Westmeath, the greater .st atrocities were immediately after committed. In 181.5 Mr. Baker, a magistrate of the county of Tipperary, was In urdered, and though a reward of not less than 13,0001. we as offered for the discovery of the perpetrators, it wa a only after the lapse of a long time that a rocreant was induced to come forward to { give evidence. In IM6 as 7ful disturbances and crimes of every description disgrat see I the counties of Tipperary, Kill's County, Limerick, 1 south, and Down. A family of nme persons were barbs ri ,usly massacred and burned to (MA at one place. In 181'.'7 the Right Hon. Baronet was - obliged to solicit from the House a continuation of the Insurrection Act. Advert in g to the other criminal in stances of the succeeding 'jet' Ars down to the accession of ' . the Marquis of Nornaanby, Iw alluded to the speech of Mr. Barron and other lion. Gt !ntlernen who had preceded him in the debate, to show th at since the government of the Piolale Marquis was comm. !treed, Ireland had, under the coneiliatcley and vrorous rr tie of the Noble Lord in public morals, in comme, in a ethic of property, and in tran. quillity, improved, was in roving, and would, he had no doubt from the impulse she b td receivcdcontinue to improve. Sir G. SINCLAIR said the House was more noto rious for the interminable len r th of its speeches, and the uninteresting character of iis debates, titan for the good which its proceedings effect( el in the country. It appeared to him that each party in t.' ext. House wan afraid to strike tthe first blot.—(Cheers.) H.e loCked upon the present proceedings as the last struggle of the expiring Whig faction.—.(Cheers.) They affected to state that their pteseut proceedings as 'ex e manly and magnanimous, but he thought the reasons hl .e part of the House would eonsider the course they had . adopted more cunning than courageous. —(Laughter.) Nothing had astonished the public so much as that duri og the recess the Noble Vis count at tke head of the Government, and his col- Ilegm. , s, should have kept their places after his de e:ration i n anot h er place n that it was his deter itration not to du so after experiencing defeat. °e a _weead defy the Nob le Lord opposite to paint or e !' , 3' part of the comrr, uni - ,y - that had any confidence or 11(fe'l)7,:eeNtefaur her Mjesty te ,':. liy.isters.—( Great cheering.) i n eve:l. l ' y that the bells woo 11 ring and bonfires be lighted their towndismise and hamlet, at the welcome intelligence of Cabi net .1.---(Laughter.---(Laughter ) If the demise of the were to be announced i.;l the political obitu try, he for , one would be at a loss to knot r who would attend as chief I Lauehte Mourner—( 1' wou:d he the NeieleVi ) s — e I potp•.:r a ly the most proper party : tif,-'44Wpihat he h a d be o e u o nt; . I . i s assessor, who wound too 1 ;te i 'l:olrlta*alX , The present Mini stesr2sed with a worthless in i•satiwoner.e.im(Lersed chin deep j 1 ....hat• of political tergi, e L u tt, g s hte ti r.) Tney J41:0 .. *e . ruse, with reepect ;to the Corn_ it si i i ht G was ! AI ' *pee Ic to hare a fi ;re i duty, but he 4 :-• It the ,he life of hint E r I out any duty on ebiee t ' lle . ) ) • 1 eose_ Se I 5 thought it right to have a fixed principle. With them it was nothing but change, one question was brought on the stage one day, and on the next it was thrown over. He could place no reliance vhatever on Ministers, and he had been puzzled to find out who could.—( Laughter) Their conduct had tended to lower the character of public men.— ( Cheers. ) It was true that they were the Ministers of the Crown, but he denied that they could carry any mea sures if their opponents thought proper to resist them—( Hear.) The Noble Lord opposite plumed him self upon his Irish policy of late years.—( Loud laughter.) What had he to say to the abandonment of the Appropria tion Clause, accompanied with the retention of the offices and emoluments,which they never could have recovered. In his ( Sir G. Sinclair'a) opinion that constituted an instance of callousness and weakness he had never before witnessed. —( Hear, and cheers.) He ( Sir George Sinclair), had been called by the journals of the day a renegade, which be believed, according to their construction, meant in the first instance preferring principle to party, and in the next place to principle.—(Cheers.) He did not consider that he deserved that appellation, be cause, in his place in that House, he had always expressed his determination to oppose the Appropriation Clause, as firmly as the Noble Lord had stated his determination to stand or fall by it. The opinions he entertained were still against such a clause , but the Noble Lord, notwithstanding the declaration he had made had given up the clause but retained his office. —( Cheers.) In fact, the two great pivots on which the present Government turned were dig. ingenuousness and procrastination : it was lamentable to observe the manner in which the public business was tray sacted in that House. The general opinion was that Ministers did nothing, that the Radicals helped them, and that the Conservatives looked on. Why was this policy adopted? Why, because Ministers might enjoy as long as possible the loaves and fishes. To every appointment which the Ministry made might be ap plied the words of the poet relative to mercy-- " It is twice blessed; It blcsseth him that gives, and him that takes." —( Cheers.) He believed with the present Ministry, the appointment of a Tory letter carrier would cause more ex citement than giving up the appropriation clause. He would now take a review of the past condition of Ministers, the circumstances in which they were at present, and their future prospects with respect to the first. In what a galling situation had they not been placed, they bad been living from hand to mouth, they were the objects of derision and distrust, one day cringing to the Radicals, the next crouch ing to the Conservatives, and the following day probably requiring the assistance of both.—(Cheers.) Their play bill might be something like the following :—Theatre Royal, St. Stephens, under the especial patronage of Sir Rabert Peel, Lord Stanley, Mr. O'Connell, &c.— ( Laughter. )—and the play might be the Popish Radical Justice.—( Laughter.) Her Majesty's Ministers had been sitting for the last three or four years for their pictures, and he had been fortunate enough to pick up a gem from the studio of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, who probably would soon have to hold an inquest upon the mangled corpse of the present Al iniaers.—( Great laughter.) !.The Hon. Bart. then proceeded to read a speech of Mr. Wa le) 's, in which be commented in strong terms on the course of policy pursued by the Noble Lord at the head of the Home Department. That picture had been finished in that eminent artist's first sty le—(Great laughter. )—in a rhetorical sense the Ministers had stood in the pillory every month since they had been in power, and they had cats, oranges, and orange mud, thrown at them in abund ance, and yet in spite of all these things they condescended to be everything by turns; first they turned their backs on their friends, then upon themselves, and lastly they found it hard to keep their places.—( Hear, hear.) His Right Hon, Friend, the Member for Tamworth, would prefer the treadmill to the misery and degradation of such Ministerial existence. With regard to their present exis tence, what was the result of the last general election? No man had ever expecte dso much, and no men had ever experienced so great a mortification. He knew not whether they were most galled by the British defe its or degraded by the Irish victories. They now depended for their ex istence oa the forbearance of the English Radicals, and on the support of the Hon. end Learned Member for Dublin, to whom they were obliged to offer up a whole hecatomb of official appointments. They dared not bring forward any ine,,ure without that Hon. and Learned Member. "Le R ile rcut." Justice to Inland in that lion. and Leal ned Mombea's vocabulary, meant, giving to him the appointment of Justices and of Cisief Justices.—( Laugh ) lie said to the Ministry, .• Do as I hid you, and as lung as you do so, you sh4ll base my support." The genus Radical might be divided into two species, first, the straight forward, uncompromising Radical, wl - ro said what he meant and thoutll t, what he said without respect to persons or places—( Hear, hear)--tbe other was a more wily class, who made professions of all sorts on the hustings—,a dice! of this class, when before his conaituents— “ As- , Elies the god, AiT'cts to nod, And seems to shake the sp'aeres ;" . _ . but when he conies within the bilis of mortality he puts his thunder into one pock t, his lightning into the other, and leaving his principles, with his coat and umbrella, in the lobby, sinks down into a quiet supporter of the Ministry. Turupilte-gale keepers put over their doors, " Pay to-day and trust to-morrow." Her Majesty's Melisters reversed this—their motto was, T,ust to-day and . pay to-morrow." —( Laughter.) Ile would suppose a couventton held at the Home-effiee.—(" Questien," and cheers.) The Noble Lord opposite would ask fur Radical support, which some sturdy Radical might refuse, and they would then apply to the House of Lords, which he congratulated on the glorious triumph they had achieved, with the piteous exclamation, " Dui.'t throw us back to the Radicals." With regard to the Irish question—(Cheers from the Ministerial side)— he would like to know what advantage could be expected from the reform of the Municipal Corporations, or the de. struetion of the Church. They had all heard of an an cient patriot who insisted on being Viceroy over the King, but the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin seemed de termined to be King over the Viceroy. The Ministry were daily sinking lower and lower, even in the genial clime of Devonshire they had suffered blight, and in the course of the next winter a severe frost might destroy them entirely. It was just possible- for them to go on a little longer, relying one day on the Radicals, and another en the Conservatives ; but eventually they would: be driven from the helm by the people, whose hopes they had dis appointed. —(Cheer s ) Mr. INGHAM feared that he should not succeed in obtaining the attention of the House, as the Hon. Bart. had done, and, considering Low many days this question had occupied the attention of the House, and how many adverse topics had been advanced on both sides, he consi dered it difficult for any individual Member to give his unqualified approval to every argument advanced on either side the question. He said this, because although he felt it his duty to vote for the resolution cf the Noble Lord— (Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches)—he could not say thet he concurred in all the arguments which had been advanced in support of that resolution. As a Member not admitted to the conclave of parties, he was bound to look at that resolution in its plain and obvious meaning, and in that resolution he could not discover any thing either questioning their authority or censuring the discretion of the House of Lords. H e sa id thi s , no t from airy desire to please both sides of the House, by giving hi 3 vote on one side, and by finding arguments for the course pursued by the other. His firm belief was, that the laws had been administered by Lord Normanby with benefit to the great mass of the population.—( Hear.) He felt it his duty to act upon that conviction by giving his support to the resolution of the Nob!e Lord. Ile hoped the example of the late Government in Ireland would be followed by who ever would be appointed to the same important situation hereafter. After the Catholic Relief Bill had been passed it was the bounden duty of those Statesmen at the head of affairs to act in the spirit of that measure, and he conscien tiously believed that Lord Normanby had done so. What had been the principle measure of that Noble Lord's Go vernment—that which had attracted most notice was the appointment to the Magistracy and the bench of gents. men of Roman Catholic persuasion ; that was, in his opinion, a most just and equitable course, and he hoped it would tend to the future welfare of Ireland.—(Ministe rial cheers.) What was the great grievance of the people of Ireland of late years? Had not the dissatisfac tion of the people arisen from a want of con fidence in the administration of the laws? It was not alone necessary that the laws should be administered, but that the people should be taught to place implicit confidence in his Administration. A Roman Catholic suitor might re ceive equal justice front a Protestant magistrate, bnt in that country it was impossible to divest him of the idea that there would be some tinge of political or reli gious feeling in his decision. He was confident also that the Roman Catholic offender felt the confidence of the law descend with far superior weight upon his head when it proceeded from one possessing the same religious feeling as himself. On these grounds, he thought Lord Normanby had exercised a sound discretion in rais ing to the judicial office persons of unsullied reputation anti high professional attainments, The other argu ment which had been brought forward in opposition to the policy of Lord Normanby was the liberation of pri soners from confinement. He would not enter into the details, but in all those cases which had been brought be fore the House, he thought a very satisfactory case had been made out on behalf of Lord Normanby. (Loud cheering.) He (Mr. Ingham) had visited the town gaol (Cork) from whence a-great many persons had been discharged ; and on making inquiry he bad ascertained that the strictest investigation of each case had been en tered into by Lord Normanby previous to their discharge. On these grounds he should certainly feel it his duty to support the motion of the Noble Lord. Mr. 11 0 B/10 US E thought the speech of the Ho nourable Member who had just sat down was extremely satisfactory to the Government, when they found an Hon. Member sitting on the Opposition side of the House, coming forward in the most ingenuous and manly manner to bear testimony to their course of policy.—( Loud chcess.) Ile could not, however, say the same of the lion. Member who had preceded him. If ever there was a melancholy exhibition in that lieuse—if ever there was a spectacle calculated to degrade that House in the eyes of the public—if ever there was a mixture of buffoonery with the most important question that could agitate the country —if ever there was an exhibition of a diseased imagination, accompanied by an utter deficiency of judgment, it would be found in the speech of the Honourable Baronet the Member for Caithness.—(Much cheering and laughter. ) The Honourable Gentleman complained of protracted de bates when he had occupi«l the attention of the House so long with words not eorth hearing—with assertions without proof, and arguments entirely destitute of founda tion.—( !leer, hear.) lie was astonished tint the Hon. Baronet dared to insinuate and presumed to charge the Government with the ex: rcise of undue influence, when he knew—when the house lere'w—•.vhen the country knew _and when all Europe knew, that nothing could exceed the coercion—that nothing could exceed the •otimidazion —that teeierg could exceed the undue influence—that nothing could exceed the bribery and corruption which had been te actised by MeinLiers on the othor side of the Mouse.—( Loud cheering.) Ile defied the Hon. Baronet o e n d o u tor toberepresentd • on a b b y or c o 3 u o g , l t i ,, l: l • : i n i t i t i v d a i s icne, ; Baronet and the Hou.se, tint of all the voters wh o were likely to be influenced by Government, twenty-two voted for himself and his Honourable Colleague while 36 voted against them.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) What a trumpery accusation then, unsupported by facts, unsustained by testimony, had the Hon. Baronet brought forward. He would not waste the time of the House far. tber in following the speech of the Hon. Baronet, it would be only crushing a butterfly upon the wheel. —(Laughter.) The Hon. Baronet, although he sat upon the other side of the House, was one of the best of Re formers, for he would venture to say that if they often had such exhibitions—if they often had such puny arguments wanting in thought—if they bad jests and alliteration, and antithesis, in place of sound argument, and a correct statement of facts, it would not be long before they had Triennial Parliaments and Vote by Ballot.—(Cries of " Oh 1" and repeated cheering.) Let him have but 658 Members of the same temper, disposition, and judgment as the Hon. Baronet, and he would venture to say that the country would soon call for a new Reform Bill. He would most decidedly and strenuously support the mo tion of the Noble Lord, and he would add that there never was a vote on which his heart went so entirely as the pre sent. He believed that Ireland was a country extremely distressed, and that was entirely owing to misgovernment. It had been stated on the other side, that there was an in crease of crime during the administration of Lord Nor manby, it appeared that the number of homicides in 1837 was 238, and in 1838 was 241, but on looking at the con stabulary returns he found that in 1834 the number was 278, and in 1835 it was 261, and that was a proof that crimes of that serious nature were diminishing. It was a great merit to Lord Normanby that during his administra tion the Orange Lodges bad been suppressed. If these Societies, secret and illegal in their nature, had not been suppressed by the prompt interference of the executive, the most lamentable results would have ensued.—( Hear.) What was the state of Ireland under the Tory regime—a system of cruel oppression was maintained during the whole period, with only slight exceptions, during the French and American wars.—( Cheers.) Another grand feature of the Government of the Marquis of Normanby was the mixed system of education—it had been commenced under the Government of Lord Grey, but it had been most ably and honourably carried out under the late Governor, and he thought, it would, in the course of years, prove a blessing to Ireland. There were now upwards of 200,000 children receiving education without any reference to their religion.—( Question, question.) He was speaking to the question. The question was the Executive Government of Lord Normanby. and he was stating the state of educa tion under it.—( Question.) He knew and understood the question as well as Hon. Gentlemen opposite—he knew their tyranny and their bigotry, but ho would tell them that they would not put him down.—(Cheers, and cries of " Oh.") The next charge was that the Noble Lord had abused the prerogative of mercy—that the Noble Lord had been merciful was most true, and he (Mr. H.) considered that he was perfectly justified in the experi ments which he bad tried. He had seen 'the long reign of tyranny of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite—he had seen that that tyranny had defeated its own object, and he was perfectly justified in trying an experiment on the other tack, and it had been proved that the mer ciful course was the best. He considered that the Government were perfectly justified in calling for an expression of opinion from that House. It was neces sary that they should leave such a motion upon record so that, should they be driven from offi:e, the Right Hon. Baronet opposite would not he able to govern the country without a new Parliament.—( Cheers.) Considering the lateness of the hour, and the great length to which the debate had been drawn, he would not detain them longer—( Cheers)—but he trusted that the majority of that House would approve of the merciful Government of the late Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. _ _ nothing of the kind was to be done afterwards. The Noble Lord stated it was attended with beneficial conse quences, and instanced the county of Sligo. The Noble Lord imagined he had no case to account for but that of Sligo; he forgot totally the 19 or 20 in the county of Westmeath ; and when reminded of them be said he would take Sligo first, but he sat down without referring to Westmeath at all. He would take the liberty of referring to a few other counties, and to the crimes com mitted in Ireland, and he would shew that the most unpre cedented, the most mischievous and the most unconstitu tional acts had been committed that were ever perpetrated by any public officer. He was satisfied that some Hon. Members opposite were not acquainted with the hundredth part of the mischievous acts done by Lord Normanby in Ireland, or they would not stand up and defend him.— ( Hear, hear, hear.) The acts of that Noble Lord would justify impeachment as much as the acts of any Minis ter ever justified such a course. The Honourable and Learned Sergeant then referred to the discharge of prisoners by the Lord Lieutenant from gaols of Tipperary, in which 57 prisoners were discharged by mere oral order of his Excellency, of Clonmel, Waterford, and Leitrim, in the detail of which he was frequently inter rupted by cries of " Divide, divide," and " Question, question." The Hon. and Learned Serjeant went on amid renewed calls for division for some time, but finding the House wearied out by his details, he concluded to their evident satisfaction. Mr. LEADER could assure the House that he would not detain them long, as he was as weary of that long de bate as any of them.—( Cheers and laughter.) Before proceeding with the few words he had to address to the House, he felt it necessary to apologize for the ill-judged attack of the last speaker upon the Hanourable Baronet opposite. That attack arose from the excess of his paternal affection, which led him to tike as personal any attack upon a Cabinet in which his brother held a place.—(Laughter.) That question at present was considered as one purely Irish, but whenaver the Government had got that small majority which he supposed they would have, they would at once take credit to them selves for having got a vote of confidence from the H, use. lie was sure that that would be the case, and, therefore, he was most anxious to explain to the House the grounds on which he would give his vote. If it was to be considered a vote of confidence, from what party was it to come? Was it from the great party opposite?—(Laughter.) They frequently, indeed, received tho support of that great aad powerful party, but in scarcely any single debate dld not the Right 1100. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, cr S-Arie ()flits friends take the opportunity of expressing their dissatisfaction and contempt fur the Government—con tempt which he (Mr. L.) considered to be deserved.— ( Loud cheers.) Can the Government pretend that they have the confidence of the Radicals in the House ? They certainly had the support of the Radicals against the Tories, but in every measure of progres.sive reform, however small, that n.ea-ure might be, the Radicals were decidedly opposed to them. The only party then, which had any confidence in the Government, was the Irish party—a powerful party undoubtedly, and one de , erving of great respect and consideration. But had the Ministry the support and con fidence of that party in their legislative measures for Ireland, as Well as their executive? If so, what had become of the Appropriation Clause. It had been declared over and over again, that no Tithe Bill for lreland would be acceptable without that clause, yet it had been abandoned by the Government. If that party had confidence in the Government with respect to its legislative measures, what was the meaning or object of the Precursor Society ?--(Laud cheers.) The only confidence which the Government then could find in that House was amongst the Irish Members, and that entirely and strictly confined to their Administration by policy in Ireland. There was certainly the small party ' of pure Whigs, but that party was so very small that it was scarcely worthy of consideration. Let them then go to the country, and what great interest would they find there having confidence in the Government ; the great landed aristocracy ?—(Laughter)—No ; in spite of the attempts made by the leader of that House to conciliate them by stating that in his opinion that party ought to be dominant, still that interest was decidedly opposed to them.—( Hear, hear.) Had the electors confidence in theta then ? Let them look at the late elections in North Devon—in Carlow, and the narrow majority which they obtained in Wigan.—(Cheers and laughter.) Had the manufacturing interest any confidence in the Government? How was it possible that they could, when the Chief of that Government said, that the man who called for a re peal of the Corn-laws was a lunatic. Had the working classes any confidence in the Ministry ? So far from it that at any public meeting any one attempting so support or speak in favour of the Government was scouted almost unanimously. He would refer to the late public meeting held at Edinburgh, which used to be the hot-bed of Whiggery, and which was represented by two of the most eminent of the Whig party ; yet at that public meeting the Whigs were scouted, hooted at, and obliged to give way to - the working men. They found then that the Government had the confidence of no party. In fact they existed upon the forbearance of the Hon. Members opposite.—(Cheers.) That they did not use that power, which most undoubtedly they possessed, of turning them out on the present occasion—in fact, be cause the Tories were not yet ready for office—because at the present moment they did not like the aspect of the po litical horison. They existed because the Radicals had not yet made up their minds to join with the Tories and oust them from their places.—( Cheers.) W:3at a miserable position for a Government to be in. —(Loud cheering.) Yet the Noble Secretary for Ireland said that the Government would exist no longer by sufferance. Why, for two years they had existed by sufferance. Even now, at the present moment, they were existing upon the sufferance of ten or twelve gentlemen on that side of the House.--( Loud cheers.) And, moreover, be would fur ther tell the Government, that if any motion of a want of confidence in the Government in consequence of their general policy were made from the opposite side of the House, more than ten or twelve gentlemen would join with the Tories against them.—(Loud cheers.) What was the present situation of affairs ? The Right Hon. Baronet opposite governed England.—( Cheers. ) The Hon. Member for Dublin ruled Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) The Whigs ruled nothing but Downing-street. The Hon. Member:for Tamworth was contented with power without either place or profit—the Whigs were content with place and profit without power.—( Immense cheering. ) He would leave it to the country to say which was the most honourable position. The Ministers had dissented from every measure for which the people put them into power. On the Ballot—on an extension of the Suffrage, even to the smallest degree, they were found voting with the people's bitterest enemies. They were not true even to their own colleagues. They had lost respect and charac ter by treatment and desertion of Lord Durham last year— they bad lost character when, in the most unhand.. some and 'most unexampled manner they had dis missed from office one of their colleagues. Moreover, that very colleague who last year they had de. Glared was one of the very best and ablest cf their col. leagues, and by whom they were prepared either to stand or fall.—( Loud cheers.) By such proceedings they had lost character in the country, but above all they had lost all character because they had abandoned the people, and had become as Conservative as the Honourable Members opposite. He agreed with the Honourable Member for London (t%lr. Grote) that if there was to be a Government, acting on Tory principles, he would rather see a Government that would be respon sible to the country—he would rather see the Tories sitting on the Treasury Benches than see them sitting o n the Opposition, and dictating to their servants, the Whigs, what was to be done. He was anxious to show by his vote, as he was by words, his disapprobation of the Government policy. It was necessary for him then to soy a few words respecting the vote which he was about to give. Had he been called upon to give a vote of confidence to the Ministry for their legislation for Ireland, he could not have done it. All that he was called upon now to vote was, that he agreed in, and entirely approved of by the Administration - of the Marquis of Normanby while in Ire land. He could not give his vote in any way that would at all imply censure upon that Nobleman. The vote of the other House was considered a vote of censure upon the Mr. S HIE L then started up and said—Mr. Speaker, in one position, Sir, of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman I entirely concur—the speech he has just delivered was certainly no joke.—(Cheers and laughter. )—He will forgive me for saying it was conspicuous for ability, but certainly not marked by originality. 1 will not say " tedious as a thrice told tale"—( Cheers) — but, " deceis repetita placebit."—( Cheers.) I had plea sure in hearing the speech of my Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury. I will venture to give him—not an admo nition—but a frank friendly hint. Let us not imitate the example of the Tories in 1830. There are many respects in which their example ought to be imitated—but let us follow their present union, not their past dissension.— ( Cheers.) You all remember what took place in 1830—notwithstanding the ostentatious exhibition of cordiality. I doubt whether the reconciliation is perfectly sincere. --(Cheers and laughter.) Sir, as to the opinion of my Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury upon the general policy of the Government, I cannot help thinking that they are not apposite to the present discus sion. I think it is injudicious to merge Ireland in the question of Reform, as it - would be to merge Reform in the Irish question.—( Cheers.) But when Honourable Gentlemen say that they condemn the general policy of the Government, with the exception of Ireland, they should remember that they make a very large excep tion—an exception of a great segnant of the empire, con. taining one-third of its population.—( Cheers.) Sir, I cannot help thinking that hereafter the historian who shall advert to the events now passing before us—when an im partial verdict can be obtained—when " malice domestic," with the passions,the jealousies,and the contentions by which we are now affected shall no longer remain—l cannot help thinking that the future historian will bestow great com mendation on the present Government.—( Ironical cheers from the Opposition, re-echoed by those from the Mi. nisterial benches.) Sir, I cannot help thinking, that hereafter it will be considered that the Nobleman who lately governed Ireland—who discomfited the Planta faction—who prepared the way for that great measure by which the liberation of his fellow-subjects—the negro population—was eff2cted ; and who, in the government of Jamaica, obtained the approbation of the Noble Lord, who was then Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), and who afterwards undertook the government of Ireland, with a firm determination to do justice to the great majority of her people, and who, although the suppression of politic excitement could not be at once effected, yet succeeded, by his policy, in divesting it of the most formidable of its cha racteristic ~ who secured justly and permanently, for the Go vernment to which he is attached, the important and unde viatiog sustainment of two-thirds of the Irish Members, and who being transferred from the Government of Ireland to the Government of those colonies—in whose pacification he had exhibited peculiar aptitude—bears away with him the consciousness of having deserved, as he has most assuredly obtained, the lasting confidence of the great majority of the Irish people.—( Loud cheers.) 'Sir, I am struck with the great contrast between the amendment and the speeches by which it was supported.—( Loud cheers. ) The amendment was the previous question in pa , rentliesis.—( Hear and a laugh.) Ti.e Right lion. Ba ronet who introduced it made a very previous question kind of speech—(Laughter)—but though '° bursting with heroic rage" he spoke with tranquil magnanimity. ( Laughter.) But the lion. Members who supported him have not followed his example —scarcely one of them but has made a furious philippic against the Marquis of Nor manby.—( Hear, hear, hear.) I cannot help thinking par ticularly th at the Right Hon. Baronet would do well to spike a piece of Sligo ordnance.—(The allusion was to Col. Perceval, and occasioned great laughter.) But it llon. Members think the Marquis of Normanby deserves . _ strong censure, why move the previous question ?—( Hear. hear.) Was this the course taken upon the second read ing of the Iri,h Municipal Corporation Bill ?—( Hear.) I see before me the Hon. Member for Oxford ( Sir R. In glis). On that occasion he exhibited an example of most conscientious mutiny against the Hon. Bart.--( Laughter. ) He placed himself at the head of the minority of 40—an appropriate number by the bye—(laughter)—who voted against the rights of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But you now think the previous question ought to be moved— you think a collision ought to be avoided with the House of Loids. Certainly a collision ought not to be risked un less it was rendered imperatively necessary, but you recite upon your amendment that a motion was made by Mr. Shaw in this House. For what ?—for inquiry? No, but for papers.—(llear. ) The Right Hon. Bart. the Member for Pembroke (Sir J. Graham) last night wanted an inquiry, forsooth, to inquire into the causes by which spade hus bandry, which had succeeded in Belgium, had failed in Ireland.—(Elear, hear.) Why, then, was not an inquiry moved for in this House, instead of a motion for papers,which was not opposed, and upon which some forensic statesmen made some speeches, infinite in length and infinitessimal in detail, till the enumeration of Irish horrors counted out the House.—(Laughter.) Why, I ask, did not Lord Roden move for papers, as Mr. Share did, or why did not Mr. Shaw move for inquiry as the Earl of Roden did?— (Cheers.) Ohl I wilt tell you. Because you knew that in the House of Lords you could hang upon a nominal vote for inquiry a virtual vote of censure.—(Cheers.) You say, indeed, it is inquiry, not censure; will any man produce me an instance in which inquiry has been moved after charges brought against a Minister, limiting the in quiry to a specific time. Suppose, for instance, that in the year 1818, when the Right Hon. Baronet's ( Peel's) Government in Ireland terminated, his Government was was impeached—and certainly under that Government the administration of the law—l purposely avoid harsh terms— was anything but what it ought to have been. No Ro man Catholic was aivanced to the bar ; from all the offices to which they were eligible they were excluded; Orangeism was in the plenitude of its power—l am not mentioning these things for the purposes of imputation—times have changed and men have changed in the times, and the Right Hon. Baronet has undergone a great modification of opinion—l wish it gee larger. Suppose that in 1818, after charges had been brought against the Right Hon. Baronet's Government, a Committee of Inquiry had been appointed limited to that Administration—Nl Y God ! would not that be regarded as a vote o f censure ?—( Loud cheers.) Oh ! put special pleading a s id e . T he Bishop of Exe ter— is a prominent person on th e Committee. Cheers.) It originates with the Dep u t y Grand Master of the Orangemen—(Cheers)—the Viceroy of his Gracious Majesty, the King of Hanover—(Continued cheers) — and taking into consideration the somewhat inquisitorial genius of that great Protestant dominical—(Cheers ) the Apostolic Pontiff of Exeter—(Continued cheers) —can you doubt whether this is a vote" of censure or not ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) But it has been said that this is a collision with the Lords, and the Hon. Bart., the Member for Tamworth, said there is no prece dent since 1803, and then he quoted a passage from Burnet, which was most effective.—(Hear, bear, from Lord Stanley.) The Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire says " Hear, hear." Does the Noble Lord, who cries " hear, hear," when 1 said the passage was an effective one, forget the transaction to which he himself was a party in the year 1833 ?—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Bart. (the Member for Pembroke) looks at the Noble Lord—( Great laughter and cheers) —with the pleasures of memory. I cannot supply them with " The Pleasures of Hope." The Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, must supply them.—(Cheers.) But taking the precedent to which I have referred, it is simply this— on the 3d of June, 1833, the Duke of Wellington made a motion in the other House of Parliament for an address, praying the Crown to maintain neutrality with Portugal. That was regarded as a reflection on the foreign policy of the Whig Government. On the 6th of June, 1833, three days afterwards, a motion was made in this House upon the express ground that a counter-acting and countervailing proceeding on the part of the House of Commons, was indispensable, declaring confidence in his Majesty's Government, not general confidence, but con fidence on that specific branch of policy to which the motion in the House of Lords applied, and the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, on being charged with supporting a motion which amounted to an interposi tion with the House of Lords, declared that he admitted there was a collision, and he said the Lords had made it indispensable.—( Cheers.) Who were the Members of the Cabinet? Did the Noble Lord who cried " Hear, hear," admit there was a collision? Was it a collision upon a specific branch of policy? I believe the Noble Lord will admit it was. Let me ask why he read the petition from Rochdale, at the opening of the proceedings on that question with such good emphasis certainly not very good discretion—( Laughter)—touching this House coming into collision with the House of Lords. (Cheers.) Does not everybody remember the Noble Lord with that admirable articulation in which he has no rival— ( Loud laughter)—laying a most judicious stress on every word, and stating the authority of the great statesmen of Rochdale as his auxiliaries in this emergency, to sustain the other branch of the Legislature. But shall I stop there ? No. The Noble Lord, the Member for Stroud, the other night, gave information of incalcula. ble value. He told us that the whole of the Cabinet of 1831, with a single exception, agreed to swamp—that is a nautical phrase.—(Laughter and cheering, during which Sir J. Graham made a remark.) You say it is a Green u ich phrase—l say it is an Admiralty phrase. I suppose you remember it fro.n the sinking of the Royal George__ ( Continued cheering.) I3ut, to proceed, let the Noble Lord explain the vote of 1833, and next the swamping of the House of Lords.—(Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) The Right lion. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke, talked of a compact alliance.—( Hear, hear.) Oh ! that alliance —you formed an alliance, but not a very Compact one, between the champions of Old Sarum and the garri son of Getter], and the swampers of the House of Lords. —(Great cheering.) But, now, you will tell ma I am evading the question.—(Tory cheers.) But you will see I shan't evade it. (Ministerial cheers.) The first point I take is the distribution of patronage in Ireland—that is a very sore point with the Irish Protestants. The fact is, that the monopoly of patronage in Ireland was considered an ancient Protestant prerogative—( Cheers)—and a vested late Lord Lieutenant, by a large majority of the people of Ireland—as a vote of censure upon a man whom they looked upon almost with reverence —looking at that, and the good whi c h, h e b e li eve d, th e Noble Lord had con ferred on Ireland, he could not vote with the amendment. Upon th it occasion, therefor, , , he sacrificed his own opinions to what he conceived to be the good of the Irish people. Ile voted with, not for the Government. —( Cheers. ) Mr. Sergeant JACK SON commenced by contradicting the statements of the Hon. Member for South Shields, and the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General for Ireland, rela tive to the appointment of Mr. Justice Perrin. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, in his very elcquent and efLetivo speech, fell into the same mistake as the Hon. Member for South Shields, in thinking that it was only in trifling cases Lord Nortnanby had exercised the prerogative of mercy in Ireland. In fact, the Noble Lord said it was a mere experiment, and that THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, APRIL 20, 1839. right—( Continued cheers)—but to look at the policy of the Marquis of Normanby, I will first take the Church.—( Hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet, 1 the Member for Tamworth, in a manner that does him credit, said at once, openly, n ithout reserve, Lord Normanby deserves credit for the manner in which he has distributed the patronage of the Church.—( Hear, hear.) He gave the Government of the Marquis of Normanby, in that particular, unqualified praise. —( Hear, hear) Did a single man who followed him pursue his example in that respect?—(Cheers.) Did the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke, last night, avail himself of the opportunity thus afforded of pay ing cordial tribute to the isolated merits of his former friend. You charge the Marquis of Normanby and the Govern ment with having a design to subvert the Church. If so, he would have enough traitors in disguise into the garri son. Instead of that every one of his appointments did him credit. He has distinguished men for their character —their erudition, and their piety. I will take his last ap pointment ( Dr. Tonson). I believe he is a Conservative in opinion, but in conduct he is a Christian. Dr. Tonson avails himself of an address from his Clergy to say that it is to the Marquis of Normanby he is exclusively in debted. There were 37 curates i a Ireland promoted to benefices by the Marquis of Normauby, and they had no claim, excepting their piety and poverty.—( Cheers.) The Hon. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke, last night mentioned the case of Colonel Shaw Kennedy. When he resigned whom did Lord Normanby appoint in his place ? Did the Hon. Member for Pembroke mention that ? Not he. Was it a Radical that he appointed, an agitator, a man disposed to become a coadjutor in excitement ? No, he selected a Scotchman. —( Laughter from the Tories.) I see the Member for Kilmarnock laughs.—( Cheers. ) No man will say, I am sure, that the successor to Colonel Shaw Kennedy was a Whig. Ido not know that he was of any politics at all, but I took care to remark that when the Member for Pembroke mentioned the resigna tion of Colonel Shaw Kennedy he did not recom mend the appointment of his successor ; the facts of this case are really better than the story of Tom Gal lahey and Nora Creina, which we have just heard in the elaborate speech of the Member for Bandon.—( Cheers.) Now I shall allude to the constabulary. There are four Inspectors of Constabulary for the four provinces in Ireland. Of course it will be supposed that all those appointments were made by my Learued Friend, who has the patronage at his disposal, if so my Learned Friend has displayed great impartiality indeed, for three of the inspectors were Protestants and one a Roman Catholic ; and if the Hon. , Baronet the Member for Tamworth shall make similar appointments in the event of his coming into office, there is not one of those appointments which we shall not feel bound to support. Now there has been great stress laid upon one appointment—l mean that of my Hon. Friend the Member for Clonmel ; but what are the facts of this case? Two years ago he was appointed counsel to the Castle, being at the same time a member of a political Society. You will ask what were the purposes of that Society ? The purposes were the promotion of Corporate Reform without any reference to the abolition of tithe, now I do not think there is any great offence being a member of such a Society, nor do I approve of a principle of Government that would not promote a member of a Society if its objects were legitimate, such as those of that Society were—( Hear, hear)—but let us inquire what was the character of that Society, was it a Society which used secret signs ?—( Hear, and cheers.) Did it employ mysterious symbols of recognition ?—( Cheers) — did it enjoin conditional allegiance to the Crown ?—( Loud cheers) —and unconditional allegiance to the Grand Mas ter ?—( Renewed cheers.) But to avoid toa much cir cumlocutory interrogation, was it a society by which warrants signed " Ernest " were issued.—( Vehement cheering.) I allude to the Orange Societies.— (Laughter and cheers ) Now the Member for Tamworth smiles at this ; I He read in his speech on the amendment a thin g not usual with him, an account of the progress of the Marquis of Normanby through Sligo from, I believe, the Sligo Champion, and certainly his commentaries on the papers were amusing, but as he has given me the preference, by reading from a provincial paper, on what is called his side oc politics, I may be permitted to return the obligation by reading for an ex tract—not from a provincial paper, not from an ob scure print, published in a sequestered district—but from the great Irish Gazette of his party, the Dublin Evening Mail, the paper is dated the 31st of December, 1834, being just one dry short of the inquiry, which is limited to 1835, the passage is headed " Lord Roden and the Stewardship of her Majesty's Household." (The Hon. and Learned Member then read the extract, which stated that the office of Steward of her Majesty's Household conferred by the Administration upon Lord Roden, was a high and deserved compliment paid to his private worth and public integrity.) It was an office which the Cabinet might with justice offer to such a man, and he with dignity accept it ; but independent of everything there was due to the noble individual, it was the more gratifying, as Lord Roden stood at the head of his party, on which account he had reason to expect, if not a right to claim, a mark of honour from them, for it was through the agency and instrumentality of that party the Ministry was placed in its present position.—( Loud cheers.) He indeed recognised that claim by placing the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's Household. After that let them pass sentence on the Marquis of Headfort.— (Cheers. ) He could assure the Right Hon. Baronet that be had no other motives in producing those instances but a solicitude to meet him within the grounds of legitimate debate, ho could assure him that he bad no sentiments of personal disrelish towards him—( Loud laughter)— indeed, its chief object was in adducing those instances merely to show the Right Hon. Baronet the necessities to which he would subject himself in case be should come into office. —( Laughter and cheers.) He told us (proceeded the Honourable and Learned Gentleman) that if he should come into office again he should avoid all these distinctions, but he should of necessity support those Ly whom he had been supported. :,The Right Hon. Baronet certainly cannot have forgotten the remarkable epeech he delivered at the Goldsmith's Hall—Tailor's Hall I should have said—(Laughter)—in which he as. serted that he should recognise no distinction between measures and men, and that his measures should be tried by those who were to carry them into effect ; but I will not press this topie further, than to allude to the great and conspicuous fact which is of such peculiar prominence—namely, that Lord Roden, the Deputy Grand Master of the Orangemen, and who has had the chief place in her Majesty's household, is now your standard bearer in the House of Lords. I shall next come to the alleged prevalence of what is called agitation in Ireland ; bet I am happily relieved from the necessity of expatiating at any length on this topic be cause the Recorder for Dublin has told us that there is in reality no political agitation in Ireland, he said that the agitation had been a complete failure ; in that case, then, to whom are we indebted to its cessation. I think that he could not have pronounced a greater panegyric upon the administration of Lord Normanby than to say that there is no political agitation in Ireland; but at the same time I can assure him that the rumours respecting a change of Government which may take place had produced no very inconsiderable excitement in Ireland.---( Cheers.) If you read the proceedings that had taken place in the theatre in Hawkin-street—(Cheers and laughter)—l cannot help thinking that a Meeting, which was presided over by the Duke of Leinster, and which was attended by gentleman of respectability from all parts of the country, is not undeserving of con sideration.—( Cheers.) I shall now refer to the administration of justice in Ireland. I ask in what respect has it been impeded by the Government of the Marquis of Normanby ? Why, Lord Normanby has made justice cheap in Ireland, by a new system of forming juries, and by appointing local solicitors under the Crown. If I were asked by what act the Administration of the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth was distin guished when he was Home Secretary, I should say it was by the introduction of the Jury Bill, which prevented the packing of Juries in Crown cases in the Court of Queen's Bench • the law was modified in Ireland, though it was not extended to the Assize Courts, by Sir Michael O'Loghlen, while in his late capacity ; and if men of all parties concur in praising his impartiality and abilities as a Judge, it is not reasonable to conclude that he com- mittea any dereliction from his duties while Attorney- General. He adopted the principle of the measure called Peel's Bill, and since then no man has been excluded from juries on account of politics or religion.—.( Cheers.) Woo will say, if men are to be selected on account of their politics and their religion, that the rule of Sir Michael O'Loghlen should not be adopted?—(Cheers.) Sir, the next point to which I will advert, is the appointment of Solicitors in Ireland. Hon. Members are no doubt aware, that formerly no solicitors were employed in Ireland for the Crown. The result was, that witnesses were examined without care, and a great number of par ties were acquitted in consequence. Lord Normanby made a change in that respect. He appointed local soli citors, and Mr. Paulett, the assistant barrister, in making those appointments, had acted with great discretion, and for the good of his country ; for by the appointments he had made, he had succeeded in putting down factious fights through the aid of the country solicitors. lam sorry to say that the county of Tipperary leads me:to the con sideration of the perpetration of crime in Ireland. No man will deny that crimes of a most atrocious character have been committed in Ireland, but is that any reason why they are to be attributed to Lord Normanby ?—( Great cheering.) Yet they have been attributed to him in no measured terms.—(Cheers.) Is there a single Tory county—is there a single Tory festival—is there a single Tory pub lication, or a Tory j ourna l, or a T ory per i o di ca l , i n w h i ch it is not insinuated that the crimes which have been per petrated in Ireland are owing to the maladmi nistration of affairs in that country under the Go vernment of Lord Normanby ? The people of England ought to know, however, that crimes equally atrocious have taken place in this country. It is rinfai r on the part of men who ought to know better, and who do k now b etter, to lead the people of this country and of Ireland into such errors ; and it is because I find the House of Lords limiting the inquiry to 1835, that I think it is the 3uty of every man in this House and the country to remonstrate against it.—( Great cheering.) What is the cause of crime in Ireland? I hold in my hand the ;itate Papers, in which is a letter from Brabazon to Crom wall, written in 1535. Let the gentlemen take that re ference, and put what construction they pleased upon it. In that letter Brabazon stated " I conceive that if his lighness were to send here a Deputy, who would adminis- ter equal justice, we should soon see as great order esta blished in Ireland as in England. And I think the Com monalty be pure and good, and that the destruction of this country be wholly owing to the oppression of tho Lords, gentry, and great people." If you condemned Drummond in 1838, why not condemn Brabazon in 1835 ? I vill not enter now into the details of crime in Ire land, because I see the Honourable Member for Kilmarnock taking notes, and as perhaps he intends to do me the ho nour of answering me, I will put this question to him, trusting that he will attend to what I state. You talk of crime in Ireland, and you express your wonder at it. Now, I ask, if any other country in the world had been governed as Ireland has been, would not the results have been the same.—(Great cheering.) I will take his own country. That country in which men have made such progress to wards prosperity and learning—that country which possesses that high state of virtuous populace. I will ask him if that country had been governed as Ireland has been—if Scot land had been portioned out by sauguinary ruffians, and the people had been despoiled, if a code had been estab lished for degrading the presbyterians of Scotland, and they bad been robbed of their property and had been de prived of the power of acquiring an)—if they had been shut out from the professions—if they had been de prived of everything which they considered valuable —if they had been reduced to a state of serfship, and if all this had been done under the pretence of establishing an Episcopal Church amid a Calvinistic people—would not, I ask, the result in Scotland be the same as in Ireland.— ( Great cheering.) You ask me to inquire as far back as 1835. No ;go back to inquire from the time that my unhappy country was surrendered to that oppres sion which the Scripture teaches you makes " wise men mad,"—( Great cheering.) There you will find the true causes of the distresses of my country.—( Cheers. ) But you lay it at the door of Lord Normanby, while in truth you ought to charge it upon the grave of your fore fathers.—( Great cheering.) \Vill the cause you adopt in this country have the effect of alienating Ireland. No, for you wish it to be believed that the whole ills to which that unhappy country has been subjected have been caused by her Catholic inhabitants. When I bear in mind the hor rors that have been perpetrated there—when I bear in mind that the Courts of Justice have been turned into scenes of butchery—when I know all the efforts that have been made by a foul cabal, whose Lord Chancellor was an atheist, and pretended to be a bigot—when I bear in mind that upon the first relaxation of the penal code that the Protestant Association was formed, which Burke had described as a set of the greatest imposters exist ing, I cannot be surprised at the state of Ireland. Oh, but do you not recollect in 1807, when it was merely proposed that Catholics should be admitted to the Army and Navy? When there was no Lord Normanby—( Hear, hear)—when the great Agitator was unheard of—( A laugh)—when there was no excitement, yet for the pur pose of recovering office, you, who on us and on our religion, on our priests, and on our altars, had cast unheard of con tumelies—who haddenouncd us as perjurers and blasphemers and idolaters—when you bear in mind that all this was done by the very party who eight years afterwards carried the measure for the removal of Catholic disabilities— (Vehement cheers)—how can you be surprised, that for the same bad purposes men should be found to act through the same instrumentality, actuated by the same infernal passions, and the same detestable imprecations.—( Re newed cheers.) And why did you do this ? To recover Downing-street.—(Hear, and cheers.) ;When Bonaparte was in the full career of conquest, when the Empire stood on the verge of unfathomable danger— when if a French army had landed in Ireland nothing but a special act of providence could have saved her ; then it was that the Tories of the day had recourse to the expe dient to which I have referred but—now—oh, now, when, you are at peace, and there is no risk to be encountered— now the people of Ireland are to be trampled on with im punity. Now upon the necks of the people of Ireland the feet of what shall I call it?—of Rodenism—( Great laughter and cheering)—may again be planted—and et you should not be too sure. And that you should not just consider the changes that have taken place in that country since the time of Burke, when it was stated that the Ca tholics of Ireland were reduced to a mere populace, having neither property, intelligence, or power. Vast changes have taken place. Now what are the people of Ireland? Who are the people of Ireland? That is an important question, and on the just answer to that question your decision in a great measure depends.—( Hear, hear.) If the people of Ireland are composed of that small minority who were once the depositories of all patronage and power, and would wish to be continued as the depositories of patronage when they had no longer the power— ( Cheers) if the people of Ireland were not the great bulk of the wealth and intelligence of the the country, then I say at once let the policy of Lord Normanby be condemned ; but approve of that policy, if any account of the people of Ireland be correct, and it is this :—The people of Ireland are composed of these mighty masses which gradually re covering from the effect of a sanguinary conquest, of a merciless confiscation, and of ruthless oppression, brought to bear against that tyranny, still as invincible as remorseless the resources, which nothing but a cause just beyond all others in the sight of heaven and man, and who, by an indissoluble union, and an indomitable refusal of submission, have vanquished in a manner as memorable as it was imperishable, and as its results would be everlasting, and have won irrevocably freedom, and following up that achievement, have become the auxiliaries of their British fellow-citizens.—(Loud cheers.) They now demand equality, and putting in for that equality their justly imperative representation, stand before you in one vast array in which their increasing numbers, their in creasing intelligence, their increasing wealth, and their consolidated power are accumulated-a-( Loud cheers. ) You want to avoid a collision with the Lords—avoid a col lision with Ireland.—( Loud and reiterated cheering.) "Be slow of entrance in that quarrel." Avoid a collision with those to whom power has been deputed and cannot be recalled, and have a care of committing the double mis take of thinking you can inflict what we arc not sufficiently prostrate to bear.—(Loud and long continued cheering.) Look at the state of Europe. A Noble Duke in another place had said, " We are at war in America and Asia." Do ;no therefore band over Ireland to that party who between Protestant and Catholic would draw the boundary line.—(Cheers.) We are at war in Asia and America, and the disclosures that have recently appeared respecting the policy of Russia are calculated to make mon pause.—( Hear, hear.) Who can rely for a moment on the policy of France ? These arc considera tions which should not be lightly discussed by those who have any real claim to the title of that party to which I am so much attached, and to whom the real interests of England, the integrity of the empire, and the safety of Ireland are the ruling Conservative principles. I trust that to this consideration we shall not be driven; but if the House is forgetful of all save the gra tification of factious opposition, and antipathies na tional and religious, it only remains for me to pray that we may not live to lament that we have disregarded the monitory intimations given by the events passing about us, when repentance shall be useless, and remorse shall be without avail. The Hon. and Learned Member resumed his seat amid loud and reiterated cheering, and was shaken cordially by the hand by Mr. O'Connell, and other Hon. Members near him. Mr. COL QUHOUN rose to address the House, but was met with loud cries of " Lord Stanley," " Divide, divide," and great ❑proar. The SPEAKER interposed to obtain a hearing for the Hon. Member. He said it was most desirable that the House should bring the debate to a close to-night, and no thing was so essential as that those who chose to remain should give their attention to Hon. Members addressing the House. Mr. CO L QUH 0 UN again presented himself, and was received with cries of " Oh, oh," " Adjourn," " Order," " Chair," and much confusion. When silence had been in some degree restored, the Hon. Member said that he was anxious to state the grounds upon which he refused his assent to the motion of the Noble Lord.—( Hear.) He could not approve of the distribution of patronage in Ireland by Lord Normanby—( Here the impatience of the House became so great that the Hon. Member was obliged to resume his seat amidst loud calls for Lord Stanley.) Lord STANL E Y threw himself upon the patience and the indulgence of the House.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) He had been very anxious to hear all that could be said on the other side of the House before he offered his opinions on the question before them, always, of course, reserving to his Noble Friend, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, his an undoubted right to reply. He be lieved that at the conclusion of this, which his Noble Friend, the Secretary for Ireland, would, he supposed, call an Alexandrian discussion, the public would make their observations upon it, and draw comparisons between the man ner in which the subject had been treated in that House and the Honse of Lords, which, except in point of quantity, would be greatly to the advantage of the other House.—( Cheers.) He considered that the House of Lords, in the legitimate exercise of their constitutional functions had carefully obstained from interfering with the rights of the other co-ordinate branch of the Legislature. The opponents of the resolution of the House of Lords had not any right to assert that that House had condemned without inquiry, as they had proceeded to inquire before they decided, while on the other hand the House of Commons, the public would infer, had rashly determined to praise before investigation, and by so doing interfered with the other branch of the Legislature. The House of Lords had carefully respected the rights of the other House, and a comparison would be instituted between their conduct and the House of Lords, not to their advantage.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord who had opened this debate had found it fit and convenient to assert that the House of Lords bad passed a vote of censure on the Marquis of Normanby and the Government in general. He could not avoid expressing his sur prise at this expression of opinion on the part of the Noble Lord. The vote of the House of Lords did not im ply a censure—true, the speeches of certain Noble Lords who supported that motion might imply a censure, but of those speeches they could constitutionally have no know ledge. Let it be boldly and frankly avowed if it was their wish to set aside all those barriers which the Constitution had merely interposed to prevent a collision between the two Houses, but let them not assume a knowledge of that which they had no right to know. His Right Hon. Friend (the Member for Tam worth) understood the Constitution better, andhad deemed it right to ascertain what had passed in the other House of the Legislature, before founding his resolution on it ; and he (Lord Stanley) said that this House had no right to comment on the individual speeches of individual Members in the House of Lords, of which they could have no Parliamentary knowledge ; and he would say, that by the precedence and practices of Parliament, and by their own example, the vote of that House did not imply a censure. He called upon them to look to the precedent they had themselves set last year upon the Sheriffs' Appointment Bill.—(Cheers.) His Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he knew that an amendment would not have been carried in the House of Lords. How did they know that ? From what had taken place upon a former occasion they had good ground for thinking other wise. The motion upon that occasion had been brought forward by a speech highly criminative of the conduct of the Government, at least as criminatory as the speech of the Earl of Roden upon that occasion, the amendment was carried, and the Committee was appointed. Why then resent the appointment of a Committee of In quiry into the conduct of the Executive now? Last year they did not think it necessary to come and ask for a vote of confidence from the House of Commons ; they moved an amendment and it was carried. They complain now that the motion of the Earl of Roden was limited to the time that the Marquis of Normanby was in power. It was altered I according to their wish. Why, then, not take the same course now ? What reason is there now that did not exist t h ee ? The amendment was adopted last year, and not upon a division; and further, the Duke of Wellington upon that occasion said, that upon the grounds which had been stated by the Government, he would feel himself bound in honour to vote for the amendment. Then he ( Lord S.) said that if the Government did not ask a pre text for quarrelling with the House of Lords—( Loud cries of " Oh, oh," and " cheers")—if they did not seek to escape from difficulties of their own creation—to escape from difficulties which were likely to overwhelm them—(Loud cheers)—there was no earthly r., : .nson fcr their not procce , iing - in the s - arne courso, And the right of the House of Lords to inquire into the exer cise of the functions of the Lord Lieutenant, as they had done last year. The House of Lords asserted that life and property are insecure in Ireland, ar.d they asserted that had existed since 1835.—( Cries of " Oh.") Then why net ask to strike out these words. If such a request bad been made, and it had been refused, then it might have Iwo) said that they meant to point a censure at the Lord Lieu tenant and the Government, and they m ight then have had a right to come to the, House of Commons and ask for that.—(" Oh, oh," and cheers ) The L , rds b ad affirmed that life and property were not secure, and there fore they said it was proper that they should inqu ire into the matter. He made a present of the words "of crime and outrage since 1835."—(Cries of " Oh, .0b."), He was very sorry indeed to trouble the House—Le h ad waited with great patience, and he was not by any means personally anxious to speak ; but he considered that it was a public duty forced upon him, and therefore he trusted that he would be favoured with their attontion for a short time. Life and property then are insecure—is that dettied ? Mr. O'CONNELL—Yes. Lord STANL E Y.—lt is not denied by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland—it is not denied by the Honourable Baronet the Mem ber for Drogheda ; nor was it denied by the Honourable Member for iSleath, who qualified himself by stating that it was confined to some parts of Ireland ; but, as a ge neral proposition, could any one venture to deny that life and property were not safe in Irclan'i ?—( Cries of" yesi He would not particularly go into the speech which ha d been offered upon the motion in the other House ; but it was undoubted that at the present moment—at all e vents the Noble Earl offered to prove that at the Pre' sent moment enormities were far more p:evalent —the social bonds were extensively severed—that rotes tants were more assaulted—that life and property teat more insecure. He would not say that he agreed in that language—(loud cheers)—but the statement was made Is, a Peer in his place in Parliament, who also asked that Co' Bence should be taken to sec whether he could be corrob o rated or not. He did not, however, rest upon the state ments of the Earl of Roden. He requested the attention of the House while he read a few paragraphs from a lee er which he had received from a most respectable ROI Gentleman of most liberal opinions, with whom be ba d had no communication since he had quitted office. 11e wished that he could make full use of that letter, for iti would make a most powerful impression upon Engl ish Gentlemen. As to the state of Ireland—this was a state' ment made by a Roman Catholic Gentleman—be stated, that at this present moment the public mind was mor e disturbed than it had been at any former perit' d-- that doubt, alarm, and suspicion, had broken LIP ciety—that the rights of property and the exercise of the political franchise rendered a man's life insccure-; that they were nut protected by the law of the land , b ut were now at the disposal of a set of desperate ruffians, woo had formed themse!ves into Associations, and render ed themselves the ministers of pulite; opinion. Disobedience to their decrees was punished by insult, and not uefre . quently by de;ath. He further stated, not upon his own 511 ' thority, nor would he ( Lord S.) for a moment give creden c , e , to it, that the Government secretly sympathise with the ab et ' tors of agitation, and that they very reluctantly allowed the law to take its effect upon offenders. He went on to soy that the Government of Ireland was not impartial. Ti e s position of parties had indeed been reversed, but the pe°P of Ireland had gained nothing by the change. The wors t passions of the worst part of the population had been t a t flamed and roused into revolution, under the specious he, significant farce of justice to Ireland.—( Loud eheers He wished that all the Gentlemen opposite would t alc the same sound and temperate views of the prospects ,° Irelan:l as were taken by this Roman Catholic Geetie; man.—( Loud cheers, and cries of " Oh, O l '' ) f He further went on to say, that the days v e Elizabeth were not worse, and that if the Consersa t ' l party were in office to morrow they could not by any Pe s % sibillity govern Ireland worse than it now was, and it W d his firm conviction that the loyal and peaceably disPs c a portion of the Catholic community wo u ld receive in protection from the Conservative Goveinment than tb e .' d did from the present.—( Cries of " Name, name," 50 cheers.) Now that gentleman's of inions were m ore liberal than his own.—( Loud laughter.) He stated fa et l but lie also stated that he (Lord S.) in making any use t° that communication would not expose him personally ° the attacks which he was certain to suff e r if his na t rae t were known.—(Oh, oh.) He stated further tn a f he was at present barely permitted to exist under the I t that had sheltered his ancestors under the penal laws• cit . might be called an anonymous letter, but it really " 5 n ip so, for the gen . leman was known to many gentlemen i ; that House, the letter had been before the G o vernine a n f he was of Liberal opinions, and was a Roman Catho'i c the utmost respectability, He had also an o ther letL er i, o o which he would refer; it was from a gen tleman a ne of the utmost respectability, for which he had doubt the Hon. Member for Tippera r y wo uld s° llc . b o ! He was an English Gentleman, wh o h a d b ee n residentbie Ireland for ten years. His Noble Friend had seen ce letter, and he was not charging it u p on the present , be vernment, but that was the statement he made as to state of society between landlord and tenant.—(Cheer to and cries of " Hear, hear.") I refer more part ctlial e it the small resident landlords. Ile cannot attempt the sn'a b e change, can make no arrangements or improvemsnt--0,0 cannot remove a bad tenant or promote an industr ies s without interfering with the involved interests off c f e g s d below him, and if c re a i ng a feelinr, of suspicion an" , n ay in the breast of eac h i n di v id ua l, that " each in his tur n become the victim of so me unlooked-for proceedl,l; If it be desirous of bringing u p a son or a b rot h er to e' t own pursuits, though he may have twenty f a rms out lease, he is precluded from availing himself of this c is' cumstance, being assured that any attempt to do so we, a be endanger his own life, and most assuredly that so i ls, party. This was the case with p oor W ey l an d, t he gen' i s man who was assassinated in the course of the last Suisun:, Gentlemen, with means considerably diminished in c°l e parison with what th e i r f a th ers p osse ssed, find them se, s ' r v t; compelled to look t o th e i r own exert i ons f o r supP ° ise their first object is land, and their inability to ( I , e s r° . to their just and l ega l r i g h t to recover possess i o n, au" - t eo and embitters all their other prejudices against 8 , 3 (1 lower classes." That letter was a calm is temperate description of the state of society Ireland. He did no t c h arge i t on the 'l°s,.,,,erd ment—God forbid he should. H e on l y b roug ht it for'S et i, for the purpose of asking whether, in such a state ef s lred the rights of prop er ty, a t a ll events , cou ld b e cons' r ot to be regarded. The writer next went on to say, that gee, improvements were now contemplated at the fir 0' s; n ee in the day of imp rovemen t was t h e enlargement Pre perty. At the very first s tep th e i n t eres t s o f the oec u rd is and landlord cam e i n t o co lli s i on ; b u t th e l an dl o rd fear:irn the tenant an insurmountable barrier to any atteiitPt o af provement. He was sure he had never p r actise",' et d measures of harsh severity; he belie ve d h e h a d never O e fr o a tenant without making him satisfaction.—( Elee fl rrhere, the Irish Members on both sides o f th e H ous e. a nd was nothing so common when talking of the murder s ne of outrages perpetrated in Ireland to sa y, " Thi s is onlY, e vett the old quarrels arising out of the possessions of land. f e el' light way of talking was the way to encourage thnse, ct eal ings that were an insurmount a ble b arr i er t o the en e " i bis improvement of the condition of the people. W as pe seel theoretical ? He grieved to say he had t o o great, r- 1,0 1 , to know it was not theoretical.—( Hear, hear.), summer lie ( Lord Stanley) had, and he ha' of on a farm of some forty or fifty acres a T ri , 5 irreproachable character, and o f p eace f u l i nn offens' r s „ p ol meanour, who had resided for the whole of his life's of a period of 60 years on that farm. And a near relat' ro ° o lo his, not many y ears ago , an agent of Lord Strad eh l was barbarously murd ere d. That man had no quar re . e ree' any portion of his n e i g hb ours , b ut ma d e an Sig ment by which be was to be succeeded in es t 03 farm by his s ec o n d son v o t e d industrious a young man 0 .„ te- A industrious habits and s t ea dy c h arac t er , w h o had u e l iseli himself to studying practical improvements, and W aS , prO . , to have made the b e st t enan t on hi s (Lord Stanley s ) o f perty. An elder son, by an agreement, took hi s 5 j „' 801. or MU to establish himself on a farrn• Ise d went abroad that his eldest son was bidding f or tb f not many miles off. This was sufficient to reus e A vengeance of the midnight legislation of that countT s hei visit of armed men was paid to the house of the father t 0/ )07 asked for the eldest son, he was not at h om e ;t b eY, Id ° the younger son, against whom there was not a 5 1 1- ; 1 .0 - , suspicion of making himself obnoxious by the atrocionS Tbel a of laying out his own money f or i m p ro vement., and set upon this young man in the presence of his motn' es te rflie brother, and they barbarously mu rd ere d him. e ~ rod ties were identified—a younger son, 18 years of ae ti ac e d the boldness and courage to say he knew, and den o ro ntsl the assassins. Gne other person besides two se, ,re' were in the house at the ti me ; it was rhea she sh e mother. She attempted to pr o t ec t her son, 7 0 10 ° ' was barbarously beaten, and th ree o f her riba:. o iset Those parties were prosecuted at the last Limerici` trot The evidence was clear and conclusive, There wa s f tb c , shadow of contradiction in the cross.examinationtedorea witnesses, but the servant-boy, and the servant girl Teo not identify the parties whom they bad see n t o th' young man swore positively and distinctly I the cir fact of the parties, but the J u ry, though nets cumstances of the corroboration were perfect*: s ot s ,", d could not pass a sentence of death on three prise) 0' the identification of a single person. He (Lord Silespl.r; not complain of the verdict, but he lamented it, f owe: because those persons wer e at this momen t ' th, and at large, exulting in the success 'beers.; crime which they had committed.—( Hear and c ere tted He knew not whether he had yet been able t° P d to sP„, either the father or the youngest son , w ho vente re the P pear as a witness, to resume t h e i r occu pation en, is esin i „, t , perty. Again he stated he 'did no t charge tai bet Pa on the administration of L or d Norm:lrby, s tate asked whether, when circumstances of this kind we r dor ib' S to the British House of P ar li ament , i t wa s an enP er su ch 1 offence on the part o f th e H ouse to d ec lare 0 ° itte. state of crime d eman d e d an i nvest i gat i on of a C° rl lieeb i : —( Cheers.) Was it surprising, when Gentlemen for 0 4 Hon. and Gallant Friend, the Member for Slig°; disco rd first time for these last three years found the den:ohely fr igl itt introduced into this once peaceful county, wh ich t f e end have traversed on the wildest .. tt e tbe t ee inthe night—when county of Tipperary, the county of estn _ age d e they 110 0 ' and Learned Member for Dublin opposite, bf: no __.wh e i : e gallant population were Precursors to a r r,", , t hat t o lL, they saw, as the Noble Lord confessed last nis,n.t'ose from disruption of all the ties of social intercoursevt: 00t; political excitement and election mattera—was it a,tonishin, that t n7 .,or s c s and Gallant Fined should call on the 51ous:i (t)csts f t r h ' e t political agitation, ar .g II to inquire how it was that amid all the election c 1 in t° a state of any society, but that with the i all their political difference, had never enteredl.icttree I,. e a a t rs be new element had been introduced, and t 'a t .t jafr.°lnisewor-d- were, says and knows, the agents elm introduced i s t_ u _,Ceec. r r.s_ the favoured of the present Administrationer to t bo ta n o s r , What had the Commons affirmed in ans.d.vernn t ' o u ry o f 1 0 , If the Lords had passed a resolution c i, oti L a ord (J. gu"el o l f Normanby's Government, the Nob!. • tbe would have been justified in asking _ The cc"' it W a the Commons.—( Hear, hear. ) ds• 14°sc would have been provoked by the Lor • opieionthen , - _ - EVEN ING EDITION•