The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

and and ernment Link the iat. He i pp 9 rteu ill gone Ls there, the sol )ne evil- wb° in e t heir t heir the ir bstir j rson 9 1 r i v e ;pair' ,real‘ Prod' ee gdci fircllidtganization in that unfortunate coun . and ,f• Soon afterwards those tithe proctors were mur nerednear the ' very spot where the rencontre took place, w„ ineir bodies were removed to an outhouse attached ri the-e ergyrnan's dwelling, and he (Captain Layar d ) te sent on detachment to protect him. He saw b ehl,!_rh"Yman walking about his grounds with a pistol in h i s e 'n i n, and escorted by a policeman armed with a loLuil.eod iar'ine• In that parish there were not six P estant?, and no church for upwards of one hundred i a l l t. , t !. - Was not that enough to engender a fall' -in the country ? He had seen thousand s 7" ni the field of battle, but he felt truly sorry that t he s,aughter of those men was a blot upon the escutche on . of his country. Notwithstanding the great delay wh ich Preceded the Catholic emancipation, the Catholic people of Ireland believed that they were to be placed on the iaaatnieedfe.oting wit their Protestant brethren, but the . a t i tno ;trolis trials, for by no other name than dis -41.,;M5. could he style them, had ' fully proved that emancipation was little better than a dead lte_te lePa, E .r Bight Hon. Baronet the Secretary f or h w° -"e De had stated that no Coercion or Bill .t would be required for Ireland. In . alluding to the ne xt tosi h r e e should disclaim all intention of personal feeling or w ish to • th e A „ give offence to the Right Hon. Gentleman ( h it t, :Lorney-General for Ireland, but still he felt it his te a l,* Say that the course which he pursued in the dia la re te . e t ,: W as one which brought the law into gr eat at e t ... . -' ti nd was one which bore its own fruits. At the , nal at the Old Bailey of Lieutenant G ant Ins i ?ellsel aPPealed to the *ury whether they would find Ir is, client guilty after the Attorney-General o f eland._law officers of the VlCr own . one of the fi rst I I n that country had done te same. Grake,a,Ptain Layard) would ask the House if Li e utenant all i n; aad not an excuse to plead, which coud not at i ti ,e allovved in extenuation of the conduct . of the (The 4 ,4 o “ rri t on. Gentleman who sat op posite to him. I tight ff-General for Ireland). He igr H ee o d ine w i i ) t e h pa t r h t e . ke n . °n• Baronet the Secretary for t h e iiti.. 4 t hat no benefit could arise fro m . keeping Ireland a ;: i t l r Military rule--" a house divided against itself s , h o .-. c ' t stand.' Could they suppose that a people who f ain w ed thei r ersue -e entitled to equal own sel f -c ommand by the adoptio of the righ ts e movement, were n ot , ord er .' it' a people who proved-their loveof peace and th e „ w nen they met in hundreds of thousands h without trtil"ghtest breach of the peace, and e should g o ! ve raeii r Land sayeven of good manners, were to be g iiisti e by martial law? He called upon them to do (II; joilsiliteyvto that country, which they had so long and so iniprts:thiesguided and neglected. If they di d . so, .. tran- %i on .7 would be restored, affection for the British con hear would be increased—there would be a union of condition of Ireland would be permanently tipo:','"ed--the flag of commerce would on ce m w o o r n e ld flo h a e t epos coast —the palaces of the nobili ty ltimirrted front receptacles of mendieancy into abodes of had dr—and God would bless the country andthosc who 4eettered the condition of her people.—(Che e rs .) d by ste st r e ' FAR the began saying he would emon leader to the House, even from the sp eeches of the so fit t o the Irish agitation, that the Whigs w H er e e h n a o d t felt i t Zg()Vern Ireland as the Conservatives. _ overn.. b itli , els duty last session to vote against the G hae, s en the Irish question, and he did so because they ittitttgtOt taken proper steps to . put down this disgraceful vitie,,,le,n• Since then the majesty of the law had t t ee t n o e oilie e ,M, and the conspirators had been broug ht il lt) leen. During the whole speech of the No bl e e to beeinber for the City of London, his object seeme d con. tqap t. ,to bring the laws of this country I lpo s - t "hat was the course pursued by Hon. Gentlemen ' °ll se l ?' w hen a convicted conspirator entered o h . Potiti --(lonical cries of " Hear, hear," from the p l il lt iti e abt'line.)anis)s h t e not che ered and welcomed by a srn . al opposite. —(Laughter.) The Whigs 11011.4° Powerairnythat Mou se, nor in the country. Th e . ell,lltylctieLnearned Member for Cork seemed to be parti u wa s h • received by the Hon.. Member for Montrose, ash. hi proved to be carrying on a treasonable s . eira e with . )0 3' the Canadians—they were conge n ial 4 .ot t i is-r (Renewed laughter.) He had heard the N oble ._ klia,,,v`prd J. Russell) lay a great stress upon the is 0104.101 T th e J . the present Governm ent, I..l!ereof'll'a Noble Lord did not deny but the s i e tts h-rdangerous tendency. How many proelama ;Al 1 4 , , , -- ` -044 Grey's Government issued, of which the .1 41 b i , -- "' Was a member? Upon reference to . the fttlelPese4—..ll,of that date, he found that the Marquis of a Peti ''„' t ne then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, h io a n d ;2 the arrrr°elarnation for the prevention of a process Ite rs . 'rades' Unions in Dublin. Only one clear day i lv tts keaed between the day on which the proclamation eav e istled, and that on which the procession was to Ibtartiesat‘en Place. The present Government had been le an tea upon, by - a large number of the peace didthe esPectable inhabitants of Ireland, to interfere. ki t k e n ase 0 ? Lord Anglesey's proclamation, w ‘' tot. th e : C onnell do ?He advised the people to sub. new el p ro clamation, but immediate l y established I lls i s , oh, or Association. A second proclamation I.l4ktilled,tir,supyr 'lig thi new Association. What lh e lreee 'VY, Mr . O'Connell and his . adherents met in :,.se 140.0te1. A third proclamation was issued, and h'' WU -In gS too Were prevented. Another A s soc ' l ltti - .lot n ti o Itt n . d ..___P, and a fourth proclamation was issued, la. 11l Al -- j`vn• Mr. O'Connell called these proclama olitetkfeline Acts, and then public breakfasts were Pi e - °3' t,,,, f or the san e ' purpose, but these were disposed tli,,e' 4.4lflagistrates. Wliat did the agitators do next ? e r ,.lfs ; aillred they would not use anyexcise . able ar s,, %-`en ib , ll ", at a meeting of St. Thomas's parish, Mr. ' ti a r,voi t - ,i` a i ed the II and Learned Member for Dun -'493 s'eelared the y en. ld not use any exciseable ar °'en 1111ti l these proclam ations were withdrawn. Mr. th ss Ul li a b 6ll ,„ l , s s nid h prec u ' ld breakfast on bread and mil k . a ze k, -15...) lie supposed wo the Right Hon. Gentleman inn v ) .q e com ae -41 "er for Duniarvon would address the H 041e414a the deb - ate. What did that Right . Hon. (Is.,ensiericinatattxessa.cah: the y meeting of St. Thomas's pariah tett unle4s the union was repealed he would I li at the meetingratoigh 41 4 , 'a, but who would buy? He would not tell any Olt Hon. Gentlernan,f°l"o bhie-el tdistra - in, said the Right not_ God, if I don't I,'' t it I will swallow adv e ice, bu t, said the they s ilk m gown." He (Mr. 1411tj1(1) wondered if the Right Hon. Gentleman had A. _ ile annual fee for his silk gown. l ka tioie. Memexa—lie has swallowed it.—(Great €inter.) 4, , i11t,,.. -QRRAND--In a few years after, notwithstand etit'niese vehement d eclarations the Right Hon. Gen thos:uvaccepted office, and acted in conjunction with th e no had 0 , s.vvord.__ pledged themselves to resist repeal even (Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) eiorea4connell was, soon after the issuing of these pro -144" :aihdidp,lnelstu ilitdr;reute‘,oedu,s and bound over to take his trial. nigs allowed the trial to drop, and he became _supporter. Mr:O'Connell lately lirocl"ay duringwhat Lord . Grey's Administration, in a th:rel itild i_it..t_ts ne termed it, addressed to the people I,ipitiholt4,32, after the affair at Wallsto wn, . h to ie w h hi h ch e 11 4 t he Whiumeer opposite had alluded, w th tt ltta hi e , Is deserved to be impeached, and in that more k: pa hi e , had been shed in Ireland by them during sh e d' t b v : b s ; s e to u r r y k 1 le? "'an darin aonfdwha h ig alf or Lord Grey's Govern ist Th e , . g the twenty years prec eding . of Tory had not het o o d . H rule, he Lordh e said,li Straffordad been a li 8 flliell b lood e said that Lord Anglesey, and sok e lied ln Irel and as tlaie e fir_., expiated his crime on the scaff old . . _ rn. 4arter abuse of Mr. O'Connell, the Anti-Co :Ititt a i ttit.zLatiodrd Lord .ey Grey, the Hon. Member sai d k. ta.`loas, that-•onnell had declared, in one of his proc who was a childish old man, He tsi the.t Lo Most insane hatred against Ireland. fi lal . opp s . e rd Grey had only two ideas, that of hating 4 ili,whssliig Ireland, and providing for h i s own e t t • e ketaob were a cruel infliction on this country. The to 12'C ostti !!'„ then read a second time'ithe passage of al, o rd G r _ell s letter to the people of Ireland, referring 14 4 ,.1 1 / 11 , it !3', and applied it to Mr. O'Connell hims l l f, t o llded f `allel infliction on his country, and had we 1 sti al ue t o I r t :tis own family —his principal object seemed h id 'ath o i• e l ) 1 . 1 1) fierce hatred between Protestants a pt 1 0/ 1 . If; which. were it not for him, would A s ;red h;:lnee` subsided. The Hon. Member then . th°,.siatioll long defence of the Protestant Operative 400%4' That body had been censured for calling tq i • j‘iov, ,Catholic religion a false and idolatrous l n r did p wou ld ask what other assumption or S:3 Te ri an eat, arhament legislate upon than that the of e 'rile religion was false and idolatrous?— thy tk ,ted th °, no from the Opposition benches.) He !he t iNio e, assertion, though Hon. Members might k lfA Tl 'ote' s 4° ' ' The Government was bound to support hat,try st art rehn.;on , and to prevent the extension of kitl. l (l .°lat e ,, c ? )\ ‘' What was the Roman Catholic religion lap ' sity •1 --(Cries of "No, no.") Hon. Members b N I tin • kite 4, th e ' but he knew that the Government must or,s. Protestant religion, and that they could ti eth " I n to 1 13 1 e e Oette the principles of the Constitutio h n, :It% I .ord tilloo religion on an equality- with it. T e .111)4teoliedetie Member for the City of Londo n . _ bad r PIN %.1. ee of that House and even of his forme 1111 hi The • ' completely ros- N at nt, and , Present motion _bad p o Nal " 0 . (M r. Fernand would give it his most alt, 111,40doop?sition. t hi 4 11 4 d • rfl INAPIER said , that the Hon . Gentleman ‘ li i :! t tle ... e e : s ‘e /41) 1 4 ( 3 1r 0a t si t ,down had, as usual, talked about all It 'o,s 4 the Bill, Repeal, Algerine Acts, and he 1 , 4 4. ~. Y e ts i ett ". ,'le peal, had not touched upon the as s 45134,51, .---(Laughter.) He did not think the k t , hthelesh . he as justified in saying Mr. O'Connell , t1i41 1: 1 ,i 5 5ra.1 2 ,1,, 114 d given up his lucrative practice . in . i, f)4_,ltletobepr.ofession, of which he was a distinTNy 4 ! pr osi r , he had sacrificed all his brilliant pro f. h li on or :e t t, land the immediate welfare of his t 4 , 1,1..4, 0 oenefit his country.—(Hear, hear.) i1i. 411 A hig Iher had spoken of Mr. O'Connell's abuse N [ At t t h? l ove 2 's. sitn tit en h t e had not mentioned his abuse of the rk,)l4as: moment .-(1-1ear.) A ,!, v v h,„ wo ody ..-gat:. Shell walked . across the floor of 0h1, 1 , 11 40 e s eatite , min took his seat beside Mr. Per tohe ,sn_ somewhat surprised at the occurrence. r ,'ro a o ne of v sued, a Portion of which was in a rather 44t16 ah°74l °ice. -" 4,he fo rt. Member for linares hil'h:Tnoae, tst l baev.erai documents to the Right s Hon .i . e s it t k, eth e 4l 4.o l , 01,11 p M embers left the house togetner..! 1 t tei a Pee to retn Continued —He could hardly t 1 4,. Sat. 'it oflreland for their present agitation and kt t(l te d in j e Right n on G Iti s ao i 8 34, th at ~ • entleman (Sir R. Peel) had _ kii i t as t W as ,_ Ireland was his chief di ffi culty o k th 10 0 , _ 'n 1844, and the difficulty would ttiNnt r'se tenaeshethe li te. on. Gentlemen opposite were te N ,, ti lies (l° l'erti roon s i ~'le did not find fault with the 404ttilltir A l a nd he th ought olr .putting down the monster , ‘.. ey had asit was wise in deferring doing fl l , ha:ere deterayntficient force to enforce authority. ti l trit tc," t heir h a 1 "d to govern Ireland by force they tart t_ i?e, arni,s,,Yanets in readiness. The pensioners W ilt foli o , v - . ' It it was the intention of the Govern e'll. Il lent h ,"P the course they had begun. The its a re j, aq acted 4. kei earned most unwisely in bringin g the 1 ., h k' a() 1 1) 41:91 it lember for Cork to trial. W hat ' l l% s , , mapierye a co.urse nii 44; i d t• " t ct that ?—(H ear. ear.) If they sent him to „nil t si,„s, Pacify Ireland ?----(llear, hea .) r He ht be angerous ; and he Was (Ii °Pini oll g tnat thde present Govern- THE SUN, LONDON, 'TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 90 2 1844, utmost endeavours to support them. He thought that the total redemption of tithes ought to be one of the first measures upon which the Government ought to deter mine. Without undertaking to dictate to Government what they should do, he would only say that he would support them to the utmost (,f his power, because lie had the utmost confidence in them, and he would con tinue to give them his cordial and disinterested support. Mr. JOHN O'BRIEN sail the time had arrived when the Government could no longer temporise ; they must either conciliate or subdue. The English Government had hitherto rated Ireland as a subjugated people, who rendered it (the GoV4rnment) powerful by their dissen sions. England had formed a union, which gave to her an unwise domination, and neglected the oppor tunities of a wiser and more fruitful incorporation ; but since that union, England had kept herself in a state of cold and selfish isolation. For cen turies Ireland had been governed by the division of races, and afterwards by the power which sectarian differences gave to her rulers. The union came, and Ireland was united, but not incorporated with the empire. The Catholics were partially emancipated, but t hey felt that freedom was not yet attained. They called for the destruction of' those sectarian differences which formed the most grevious part of their evils, and the most fruit ful source of British power. The British Government maintained the Church of an opulent minority at the expense of an impoverished and dissentient majority. All these grievances compelled four-fifths of the people of Ireland to rally under the comprehensive watchword of Repeal. But the Imperial Parliament had the power, if it had the will, to consign to repose the awakened spirit of nationality. The national energies were wasted in continual discussion, and the feelings of domestic life were disturbed and irritated. The Roman Catholics were denounced as unfit to discharge the ordinary functions of free citizens.---(Hear, hear.) What then were the people of Ireland to look to ? The Mem bers of the present Government were those Ministers who said that they had commenced emancipation on the combined consideration of expediency and in timidation.—(Hear, and cheers.) Whatever weight ex pediency might have had with them he for one was convinced that intimidation had the greater force.— (Great cheers.) The Irish people were reproached with - conspiracy, but by measures of comprehensive redress you can dissolve the combination.—(Cheers.) They were reproached with agitation, but Magna Charta was carried by agitation. The Bill of Rights was carried by agitation. Trial by Jury was maintained by agitation. The Presbyterian Church of Scotland was preserved by agitation. The independence of the Irish Parliament in 'B2 was obtained by agitation, and the emancipation of the Catholics was obtained by agitation.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member concluded by respectfully calling upon the House to consummate the great Act of Emancipation which was not yet completed—to carry to their councils the awakened spirit of nationality—to temper its enthu siasm—and, if they would, to regulate its aberrations. Mr. MONCKTON MILNES having placed a notice on the books, on the subject of Ireland, and that small notice of his having merged in the larger proposition now before the House, he trusted he should be allowed to make a few remarks. They should be few, for he promised the House he was not going to give the speech he intended to have uttered had his own motion come on.—(Laughter.) It was an unfortnnate thing that they never could get a discussion on Ireland in that House, which did not turn out to be of an exclusively party character.—(Hear, hear.) He wished the Noble Lord the Member for London had not confounded two thing s—a criticism on the late trials, and afterwards an essay on what ought to be the future government of Ireland. They had been favoured with speeches on two subjects which ought to have been kept widely distinct. Although the question of the late trials bore very little on the question of the future government of Ireland, it had unfortunately been introduced, and had tainted the whole debate with a violent party spirit. It was a matter they all knew, and all grieved about, that the law was so little respected in Ireland. But it ought not to have happened to the Noble Lord to be a party to bring the law into still less respect, as he had aimed to do, by the remarks he indulged in, when speaking of the recent prosecutions. He was reminded by the con duct of the Noble Lord of two lines in a work of Dickens'.—(A laugh.) Against the Bishop plead the Church's cause, And from the Judges vindicate the laws. And so, when giving what was real law and what judge made law, the Noble Lord should recollect that there was hardly any case in which a person was found guilty but what, according to his own opinion and statement, he was so found, not on the law; but on some quibble of it. —(Hear, hear, and laughter.) lie must say for the Noble Lord, or for himself, neither of whom knew any thing whatever about the matter—(Great laughter)--to speak in the irreverent and disrespectful way which had been done of those trials was most improper.— (Hear, hear.) He should have thought that the experi ence of office which Hon. Gentlemen opposite had had might have taught them the difficulties which existed in the way of a fair and impartial government of Ireland. They ought also to know that if the measures which they recommended were attempted to be carried into effect they would destroy Government after, Government. They all knew that Catholic emancipation was carried by a combination of parties, and against the opinion and the wishes of the English people. —(Hear, hear.) The same feeling which so long prevented and thwarted Catholic emancipation still existed, and any endeavour at the present moment to depress the Protestant Church, or enlarge the Catholic, would meet with the most determined opposition. He thought it, therefore, most impolitic and unwise that the course opened by the Noble Lord (Russell), and followed up to such an extent by the other Noble Lord (Howick), and the Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. C. Buller), should have been taken by them without a modi fication of the opinions of the people of England, which could only be managed by the small processes— (Laughter)which they all knew so well, and in time it would be folly in a Government to propose any such alterations as those suggested. If they were proposed they would not be adopted—they would annihilate any Government.—(Hear, hear.) Much blame rested on the people of England for this state of things —more, much more, than on the Government. Whatever evils were in Ireland were owing to ourselves. If the priests were violent it was England made them so, by leaving them a prey to every political excitement. We had made them as they were. He shared this opinion with almost all the great states men—(Laughter)—who had ever administered the affairs of this kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) There was no doubt that such was the opinion of Mr. Pitt.—(Hear.) Although there remained no distinct record of it, he had never heard it doubted. It had been asserted over and over again in that House, and had been mentioned in conversation by Mr. Pitt's most intimate friends. Mr. Pitt believed that the union would never accomplish its object as long as the Catholic clergy of Ireland were left in their unregarded and degraded state. l —(Hear.) If a proof were wanted he found it in the declaration of the Roman Catholic bishops, made on the eve of the union. At an assembly of the Roman Catholic bishops, held on the 17th, 18th, and 19th of January, 1799, they admitted that the provision pro posed by the Government for the Roman Catholic clergy ought to be thankfully accepted ; and that such an interference by the Government with the appoint ment of the bishops as would enable it to be satisfied of their loyalty was Just and ought to be agreed to. This same opinion was held by the very last of that genera tion of remarkable men—Lord Aidrnouth. Lord Sid mouth made an offer to the Roman Catholic priests to receive from George the Third a share of the reyium donut,' at the time it was given to the Presbyterians. By the Presbyterians it was accepted, but the Roman Catholic clergy very properly declared that it would be considered as a bribe to detach them from the cause of Catholic Emancipation. Under these circumstances they could not receive it. The same opinion was held by Lord Grenville, and Lord Castle reagh avowed it frequently. In the Committee of 1825, when the question was brought prominently for ward, it was well known what were the opinions of Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Sheil on this subject ; but he would not detain them on this point—they were matters which they might all read for themselves, and which no one had ever denied. In 1826, Lord Brougham, then Mr. Brougham, in reference to the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland, expressed himself in favour of the provision proposed the year before in 1825; a resolution to that effect was passed in that House by a large majority. He did not intend to bring this question in any other form distinctly and immediately before the House ; he was only declaring what he believed to be the sole, and single, and true line into which they could get for the purpose of bettering the condition of Ireland. He never intended to propose— indeed, it would be an insult to do so—to give a sum of money to the Catholic clergy, because it would be con sidered now, as it was considered then—a bribe. It was a thing impossible—it could not be offered; but he would tell them what he thought could be done, and he had no doubt the House would agree with him on this point at least. The Ministers seemed to begin here in the right way. They had done all that the Roman Catholic clergy would accept in giving them every means of possessing the endowments that might be left to them by persons of their own persuasion. (Hear, and a laugh.) That was. of course, very little.— (Laughter.) But he would take it as an earnest of more, he would take it as an earnest of the good feeling of the Government in this matter; he hoped it would be followed up by some such measure as the appointment of a Commission to inquire into the state of the Roman Ca- tholic chapels in Ireland, with a view to giving a grant of public money for the purpose 'of repairing those buildings now desecrated by misery and poverty, and and which had every right in the world to be kept in a decorous state for public worship. He hoped, too, that the invidious distinction, with respect to the titles of the prelates of that Church, might be dune away with— (Hear, hear)—for, believing as he did, and as every member of the Church of England must believe, the per fect right of those prelates to assume the titles of bishops and archbishops, though not in connection with the sees, as any of our prelates had to assume them, he thought it would be a foolish and invidious distinc tion if they left that matter any longer doubtful. Let them proceed by degrees to establish a good feeling in Ire land—let them do it by degrees, not because he did not wish to do it at once, but because he knew what was the feeling of the people of this country on the subject. He knew that their feelings and prejudices were connected with the best principles of social and religious liberty in this country. Their prejudices against the Roman Catholic religion were heir-looms which came down to them from the times of Catholic persecution against Protestants, and the consequence was that Roman Catholics were at this time paying the pe nalty of the intolerance and bigotry of their forefathers. It was only by slow degrees that such opinions and feel ings could be eradicated. And oh ! what a lesson ought it to be to them to be tolerant in these matters, when they saw how deeply such intolerance in past times had sunk into the hearts of the English people—what a lesson ought it to be to all sides to do nothing that should encou rage intolerance when they saw what he would call the " hundred days " of Queen Mary had so operated on the English mind at this moment, as to incapacitate them from doing justice to the Roman Catholic population of Ireland! When he spoke of doing justice to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, it appeared to .him that in the speeches of the lion. Gentlemen opposite there was a most extraordinary deficiency —one, indeed, nearly as great as that committed by lion. Members on his side of the House.—(Hear, and laughter.) On this side of the House we often talk about Ireland as if thera were no Roman Catholics at all in it. On the opposite side Hon. Gentlemen talked of Ireland as if there were no Protes tants in it. Who could have believed, while listening to the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Sun derland, or that of the Honourable and Learned Member for Liskeard, that there were a million of Pro testants in Ireland.s—(Cries of " No, no," from the Op position.) Well, then, two millions.—(No, no, and laughter.) Say, then, a million and a half.—(Laughter.) At least, then, an amount of Protestant population in that country, which, considering their property and in fluence, they could not entirely disregard, without doing injustice to that country. Remembering what the Pro testants of Ireland were, he would ask at whose door lay the evil ? If they were proud and insolent, if they did tyrannise over their Catholic fellow-subjects, who had encouraged them in doing so ? What Legislature was it that had fostered in them this feeling, that had made them absolutely the spoilt children of England, and had led them to regard themselves as the lineal descendants of the Cromwellian conquerors of Ireland? He did not say this was the case, but, looking histori cally at the subject, he should say such was t natural consequences of the manner in which the Protestant in terest in Ireland had been fostered and cockered by England ; he said, therefore, to turn round and deny these men their proper; influence, and to speak of them as non-existent, as in no degree to be regarded, as if they held no part of the public opinion of Ireland, ap peared to him as a gross and unmitigated fallacy. The Protestant Church was regarded, beloved, and revered, in Ireland, in a manner which, he was sorry to say, he found very few of its followers in England exhibit. He wished he could see the members of the English Church as much attached to it as the Protestants of Ireland were. He therefore could not pretend that he would come at once to any of those stringent and rapid measures by which the Church Establish ment would be at once destroyed. He did not think, supposing the dream of the Noble Lord to be realised, and he seemed indulging,in some such reveries —(Great laughter, occasioned by Lord Howick being, or appear ng to be, at the moment asleep)—that religious ani mosity would be at all weakened. Leaving the feelings of the people such as .they were—he believed the volun tary system would have the effect of imparting to the Church of Ireland all the rancour and bitterness which they then found disfiguring the Roman Catholic Church. And the consequence would be nothing less than one of the most bloody and destructive conflicts of religious opinion that had ever been seen on the face of the earth. On these and other considerations he would not support any measure which would tend to destroy the Pro testant Church in Ireland. If that link were severed what was to prevent the Irish Protestants from saying we are Irishmen also, we wish to hare a national legis lature; what was to prevent them from becoming re peelers ?—(Hear,hear.) He saw nothing to prevent this consequence, but he would say with the late Baron Wolfe, he would wish to give the Catholics in Ireland an equality of rights, not an equality of degradation. He would do everything to secure their comfort and dignity; he was not to be terrified by seeing two or three respectable theologians with purple stockings sitting in the House of Lords.—(Cheers and laughter.) He thought also they ought to establish friendly relations with the Court of Rome. Were the clergy its connection with Rome there would be just as much chance of their being good subjects of the Crown as any members of that body. Relations with the Court of Rome ought now, at least, to be renewed. The Hon. Member for Newark had mentioned this subject in the House last session. He did not think there would be any objection to it on the part of the House or on the part of the country.—(An ironical " Hear, hear," from Mr. Plumptre, and laugh ter.) Such an attempt, if made, would certainly require some caution.—(Laughter.) The Court of Rome had been so long accustomed to be the prey of diplomatists, that they would probably receive our advances with suspicion. But if they explained that they felt that the Court of Rome could revive in Ireland the old and excellent principle of order and conservatism for which it was distinguished, and which it had main tained in every other country in the world except Ire land, such an attempt might be made most successfully. But 4 the education of the Roman Catholics ought also to be regarded and provided for by an additional grant to the College of Maynooth, or the endowment of an Irish College at Rome,which, of the two he should prefer. He thought that encouragement ought to be given to her Majesty's present Government, and to every other Go vernment—(Laughter)—in cases which he considered superior and more portentous than the existence of any G overnment.—( Laughter.) It was considered that the effect of the Reform Bill had been to injure the stabilit) of Governments in this country.—(Laughter.) It was impossible now that any Government, however well ma naged, could retain power for as long as Sir Robert Wal pole was permitted to retain it.—(Laughter.) It was, however, the duty of every Government in this country to lay matters in such a train, and to prepare them in such a way, that whatever the result might be to them selveF, whether they were able to carry them them selves or not, would soften the difficulties to those who came after them. The Noble Lord the Member for London pledged himself in this debate as to what he would do if he became the Minister 'of the Crown. The Irish Catholics might reckon when the Noble Lord could get a majority by any means, that he would give them religious equality.—(Hear, hear.) They might know that was the very least theywould get.—(Laughter.) It was the duty of every Member of Parliament to take care that if such an unhappy event should take place—(Laugh ter)—to do all in his power to modify and soften the evil about to follow.—(Laughter.) The greatest difficulty in this world occurred, not from the events themselves, but from thAellwhoerldooobled say was, that he believed her ing impassioned for Ma jesty'sthem.—(Laugh- ter.) Government was ri g h t„ b ut i t was necessary th a t they should do everything in their power to bring about what was just as tranquilly, and with, as he must say, as little revolution as possible.—(Great laughter.) That they would do so, he had not the least doubt; but in their own way.—(Laughter, and cheers.) They (the Go vernment) saw what was right as clearly as you d o — they saw the evil a s truly as remedy was as truly w y o o u u ld do— br a i n ng d saw it whatb ou t the as you do, but the remedy was not so palpable as the evil. —(Opposition cheers.) They would attempt th e remedy, but their course wou ld not be such as was pr o p ose d b y the Noble Lord the Mem ber for Sunderland—they by means which, in th e op i nion of all prudent men, wou ld attain its object, a n d, at the same time, would not in sult public opinio n i n this country. He warned the Noble Lord, and othe rs b ehind him, - from the destruc tion of the Roman C at h olic Church G rea t laughter) —and to take care w h at they did in arousing a "No Popery " feeling in thi s country.—(Cries of " h, o h.") a There was a feeling in this country which the Noble Lord, and those around, should take care not to arouse by violent and extreme declarations. He saw no reason why they might not have the scenes of 1780 acted over again ; and he was sure there would be a many a Lord George Gordon to help them on.—(Oh.) They should set themselves seriously to remedy the evils of Ireland. Let them forget all their party differences when dis cussing the affairs of Ireland. —(Hear, hear.) Let them not taunt Government with not going so far as Hon. Gentlemen opposite wished, as long as they went in the same direction.—(A laugh.) They ought to make every allowance for the Government.—(A laugh.) And Hon. Gentlemen on the other side should remem ber that when they were in power they did not go farther. He gave his cordial vote in favour of the Go vernment, not because they did all he wished for Ire land, but they did as much as t h e o ther Government, who called themselves liberal, had done before them. Let them do religious justice to the people of Ireland and political justice would follow in the course of of time.—(Hear, hear.) There ought to be a s tatute limitations in politics as well as in matters of p r operty. They could not go on discussing the wrongs of reland for ever.—(Hear , hear.) They looked at the ev i l s of Ireland just if they were looking through Lord Hosse's telescope—(Laughter)—in order to bring them as near as possible ; but they ought to endeavour to obliterate them as much as possible; they ought, instead of exaspe rating and wounding the feelings ot the people of Ireland to try to soothe them in every way.—(Hear, hear.) Let them proceed in such a vein and they would do every thing for Ireland. They should legislate for Ireland not according to what they thought best, but according to law and present circumstances, and upon such sound and rational grounds as would cure the evils of that un happy country.—(Cheers.) Mr. MACAULAY—Sir, I cannot refrain from con gratulating you that I did not catch your eye in the present instance, because, I should be sorry to prevent an Irish representative from ad dressin g th e House on an occasion so interesting to his country, but peculiarly sorry should I be to stand in the way of that Hon. Gentleman who pleaded the cause of Ireland w ith so much force. I now wish to submit to the House the rea sons which influence me in the vote I am about to give. And, in doing so, I am sorry to say I do not feel myself justified in following the course traced out by rairi Lion. Friend opposite, with all that authorit y w hich e de rives from venerable antiquity, not thinking it right to suffer her Majesty's Government to go on proposing measures in their own way seeing the mistakes which they aro likely to make. The grounds en which I sup port the motion are these : that I think Ireland is in a most unsatisfactory and unsettled state, and that if there be disorders in that country, of which no statesman can see the source, yet there are disorders in the present condition of Ireland of which her Majesty's present advisers must be really considered the cause, and I do not thi n k that in any part of their conduct, either legislative or administra tive, they s ho w a just appreciation of of the nature of the cau ses of the disorders of th a t country, or the proper mode in which they should be redressed. I see nothing from which to infer or expect that their policy will be differe n t f rom that I which they . have heretofore pursued. look forward with deep uneasiness to the state of Ireland---( Hear, hear, and eheers )- and under those circumstanc es , I con ceive it the right and duty of every man to speak out, and I conceive my_Noble Friend's motion to go into a Commit tee of the whole House is both a very convenient, as it is, be yond all doubt, a perfectly Parliamentary, course to pursue. With regard to the proposition before us, it will not be neces sary to waste the time of the House in stating that the present condition of Ireland is one to inspire alarm and apprehension. In that I think both sides of the House are agreed. That coun try constitutes a fourth part of the United Kingdom. In pro- portion, it is more than a fourth. In the natural fertility of its soil it is superior to any area of equal extent in Euro pe . It possesses ports which hold out more allurements for commerce - than any other country, and it is an i n exhaustible nursery . for brave soldiers.—(Cheers.) It is a country of far more im portance to the prosperity and greatness of the em pire than all our vast dependencies put together, if multiplied fire times over—of far more impor tance to us than ur Canadian possessions, together with the We les the Cape,and Australasia added to the whole empire of the Mogul.—(Cheers.) We know it is now governed, not by love but by fear—(Cheers)—that it is go verned as you govern Sinde—(Cbeers)--not by the confidence of the people in the law, and by attachment to the Constitu tion, but by means of armed men, and entrenched encamp ments.—( Cheers.) This is a fact which, if it stood alone, would fully justify the House of Commons in going into an inquiry upon the causes which produced such a state of things in Ireland.--( Hear, hear.) But there are other evils in Ireland, a part of which cannot be attributed to the present Government, an , l a part of which can be justly laid to their charge. Ido not wish to weary the House by tracing the origin of those evils; and yet, I think I can hardly do justice to the question without casting a passing glance on them. No doubt when we look at the pri mary causes of these evils, we must look not only beyond the existence of the present Administration—not only beyond the time of any living statesman, but to times before the names of " Whig" or " Tory" were pronounced—to times anterior to the introduction of the Puritans, to which the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, in his very ingenious speeeh, attributed these evils—to times anterior even to the Reformation. I think we I may trace the first source of those evils to the manner in which Ireland became annexed to the Crown of England. It was a conquest, and a conquest of a peculiar kind. It was not a mere annexation of Ireland to the British Crown, which would be a benefit to her. It was not a conquest like that of France over Normandy, or like that by which Silesia was added to Prussia. It was a con quest of a different kind. It was a conquest known in ancient times, and well known among rude nations— it was a conquest of race over race—it was the dominion of one nation over another, such as was established by the Mahrattas over the kingdom of Gwalior—such a do minion as Spain established over South America. That I take to be the first great fountain of all these disorders. I believe that the very worst of all tyranny is that of race over race.—( Hear, hear.) I believe that the enmity which has existed between nations separated by sea and mountain, even when those nations have been at war with each other, has never approached, in its most intense bitterness, the enmity of nations which have been geographically and locally inter mingled, and yet, at the same time, have never been morally amalgamated. It is the feeling of the Spaniards and the Moors; it is the feeling which, down to our own time, exists among a large part of mankind in regard to the Jews. Never theless civilisation can remove this evil ; for in our own coun try—a country which formerly suffered under the same s p ec i es of misery—we have seen Celt and Saxon, Dane and Norman, all fused down, all melted together, and forming one great united people.—( Hear, hear.) This, we might have hoped, would have taken place in Ireland. I believe it would have taken place but for the establishment of the Reformation.— ( Hear, hear.) Then came in a new division to strengthen the old one. The aborigines of Ireland remained true to the ancient faith alone among all the nations of the north of Europe.—(Hear.) Then you had im mediately a new line of distinction ; you had theological animosity called in to reinforce and reanimate the undying animosity of race: and in this manner it is that the two have come down to our own time: It did unfortunately so happen/hat the spirit of liberty in England was allied with that spirit in theology , which was mo s t w id e l y oppose d t o t h e Roman Catholic Church—it did so happen that the passion for arbitrary Government, was, daring the seventeenth century, closely allied with a tenderness for the old religion. Such men as Pym and Hampden, and Van*, and even Milton, afford ex amples of the operation of this kind of alliance. Even Milton, with all his eloquence, while proclaiming the great doctrines of religious liberty, always made an exception—the religion of the Roman Catholic. On the other hand, those princes who re spected no rights of Protestants in the case of any dissenters, always respected the rights of the Roman Catholic. James the First, even after the gunpowder plot, had no repugnance to the Roman Catholics. Charles the Second was a concealed Catholic. James the Second an avowed Catholic. In this manner it commonly happened that their evil was our good, that throughout the whole of that long contest our slavery and their freedom was the same thing. At this very day every thing which in the mind of the English Whig is as sociated with what he considers the glory of his coun try, is, in the mind of a Roman Catholic, asso elated with the degradation of himself and his religion. Take the name of William the Third—take the name of the battle of the Boyne, and others which I need not mention. I never recollect having been so forcibly struck with the differ ence as I was on a day which I ought to well remember—the day when I had the honour of being declared Member for the town of Leeds. I was in the chair, which was adorned with orange ribbons ; it was surrounded by men of the strongest opinions, nothing but orange ribbons were to be seen. I could not help thinking how anomalous all this would have seemed to an Irish Protestant. Nor was this all ; there was a large orange flag carried before me, and Sir George Saville, one of the v. ry first of those who led the w a y i n c l aim i ng equal rights for the Catholics, sat in the vet) , chair in which Lord Milton sat after he gained his great victory in Yorkshire. What a triumph would this display have been considered by an Irish Protestant over the Catholics. At the same time it was a circumstance that suggested reflections on the whole of the history of the two nations.—( Hear, hear.) During that century twice the Irish population rose against the Protestants, twice they were put dew n and visited with severe punishment. They were put down first by Cromwell, and then by William the Third. Each of these rulers, after his victory, proceeded to establish a system of his own. That of Cromwell was fierce and strong, and able and cruel. It was all contained in one word—a word which Lord Clarendon tells us was constantly uttered by the Englishmen in Ireland—extirpation ! What his policy would have been if he had lived, we cannot tell ; but his object, un doubtedly, was to make Ireland completely a part of England. William the Third's policy was seemingly less cruel; whether in reality it was less cruel, I have my dsubts. The Irish Catholics were to live, they were to multiply, they were t o dwell on the earth—they were to till the earth—but the Catho lic was to be what the Helot was in Sparta—what the Greek was under the rule of the Ottoman—what the man of colour is at this moment in Pennsylvania. He was to be excluded from every honour and every privilege. At every step in his path through life, he was to find himself cramped • by some galling restriction. If he were desirous of military glory, he might go into the armies of Austria or France. If he felt any desire to take part in politics, he might plunge into the diplomacy of Italy or Spain; but if he remained at home he was to be a mere Gibennite—a mere hewer of wood and drawer of water. Bad laws badly administered increased the bad feelings from which they had sprung—and to that period I believe is the origin to be referred of all those bad feelings arising out of the relations of landlord and tenant in Ireland, which have lasted down to our own times, and which have led to such fatal con sequences throughout the whole subsequent series of Irish history. As to the Courts of Law—as to the juries —they have existed only for the benefit of the dominant class. As to the priests, those men who have been revered as the dispensers of the Christian sacraments, they have been constantly treated in a manner in which no nun would treat the veriest mountebank. A t last there came a great change over the face of Europe. The French revo lution had awakened the spirit of liberty throughout the world. Jacobitism was certainly not the national ally of Catholicism, but oppression and misery produce sharp coalitions, and such a coalition was now lormed. 'I hat third Protestant ascendancy was put down by the sword, and then it became the duty of the eminent man who stood at the head of affairs to consider how he was to deal with Ireland. I must say, though lam no idolater of the memory of Pitt—that when I compare the plan which he formed with the policy, either of Oliver Crom well or William the Third, I am forced to admit that he de serves, over these celebrated men, the praise of great wisdom and of great humanity. The union of Ireland to England was part of his plan —an excellent part of his plan—an essential part of his plan, but still only a part of it. It is never to be for gotten that his scheme was one much wider in extent than any which we have yet seen carried into effect. What he wished was to unite the hearts and the affections of the two nations. Catholic disabilities were to be removed. The Catholic clergy were to be placed in an honourable and independent position. Catholic education was to be conducted on a liberal scale. His views on those opinions agreed with those, I believe, if I am not misinformed—with those of a man of an under standing even more enl arge d and capacious than his own—l mean, Mr. Burk e .—( H ear, hear.) If that system had been fully and fairly carried into effect, it is my belief that the union with Ireland would have been as secure and as far beyond the reach of danger as the union with Scotland.—( . Cheers.) The n w r o e u m l de remembered, d b a e s n name of the union would have been associated in the minds of the great body of the people of Ireland, with the removal of cruel and galling disabilities, and with respect paid to their re ligion.—( Cheers .) All that was just, all that was national in wouldtheir havefeelings , b m h t he mbe r e English d, connexion. —(Cheers. ) The Parliament on College-green it tm d deserved v e u cl p to w b i t e h r re membered, only as the vilest--( Hear, hear)—the most corrupt—( Hear, hear)—the most tyrannical—( Hear, hear)—legislative assem bly that ever sat, I believe, on the face of the earth.—(Loud cheers.) In saying this, lem sure lam not giving any offence to any Irishman.—( Hear.) I say no more than Wolfe Tone has said. ( The Right Hon. Gentleman here quoted a passage from Wolfe Tone, in which it was asserted that there was nothing in the history of legislation at all bordering on the in famy of College-green, and that he did not believe it had ever entered into the heart of man to conceive anything more infamous than the system of Irish legislation.) Not only would the union, if this had p asse d, h ave b een associated in the minds of the Catholics of Ireland with great benefits received—(Cheers)—but those benefits must have inspired unmingled gratitude—(Cheers)—for they would have been benefits not conceded to force, but given freely—(Cheers) —given in the moment of power.—( Cheers. ) lam sorry that Mr. Pitt's measures were not carried into effect, but the Irish Catholics found that they had given away their independence, and that they had obtained no compensa tion in respect of their civil or their religious liberties.— (Cheers.) The union must now be associated in their minds with disappointed hopes and violated pledges.—( Cheers. ) Nevertheless, it is not yet too late.—(Loud cheers.) It was not too late in 1813.—(Cheers.) It was not too late in 1821. —(Cheers.) It was not too late in 1825.—(Cheers.) If some of those men who were tben, as now, high in the service of the Crown, would have made up their minds to say that which they were forced to say four 3tearslater, I believe, that all the benefits of the policy of Mr. Pitt would have been secured.— ( Loud cheers.) The supporters of agitation had not been or ganised. The Government was under no coercion. That which might have been given in 1825 might have.been given with honour, and might, and probably would, have secured grati tude. At length, in 1829, concession was made—lawfully made—and made without conditions, which Mr. Pitt would un doubtedly have imposed. But it was made reluctantly, and with evident reluctance. It was made confessedly for the pur pose of avoiding a civil war. Was this a concession to be re ceived with gratitude, or to be received with contempt? Was it not a necessary effect that it shOuld inspire in the minds of the Irish people an opinion deeply to be lamented, but one, with the evils effects of which we are at this day con tending ? Could they forget that they had come before the English Parliament, during twenty-seven years, as suppliants for justice, pleading the rights of conscience, pointing to solemn pledges, to the promise of Mr. Pitt: and it is believed, to the_promise_given by his Majesty, George IV., when Prince of Wales ? The most profound thinkers, the most eloquent orators, had toiled in their service in vain. Mr. Pitt, who had endeavoured to fulfil his intentions towards them, had been driven from power. Mr. Grenville and Lord Grey, who matiteeemdpw toerededriven from do but asm power. Mr. can small part of w hat Mr. too . i F itt had h their part, t, and Mr. Canning was hunted to death.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) When that distinguished orator was laid in his grave, then the Catholics began to look for them selves—to organise agitation—to display themselves in a strong and formidable array of force, just keeping within the limits of the law. The consequence was, that within two years after that great man had been carried to Westminster Abbey, broken-hearted, the feeling pervaded the Roman Catholic body in Ireland, that from England, or at all events from that great party which now governs England, nothing was to be got by reason, and everything by force.--( Hear, hear.) However, the concession had been made—it deserved no gratitude, and it obtained none. The organization of agitation was com plete. The leaders of the people had tasted tie pleasures of power and of distinction. The people themselves had grievances enough to furnish a very good pretext for the continuance of agitation. There was a general sense that there was nothing which might not be got by playing over again the game of 1829.—( Hear, hear.) These, Sir, I call the remote causes of the difficulties with which we have now to deal ; these are the causes in which originated the great mass of that discon tented and morbid feeling which comes to us as the fruit of uninterupted misgovernment from the time of Henry 11. to the time of William IV., which has come down to the states- men of the present time to deal with as they best may. And now, Sir, to that immediate cause. The state of Ireland, if I understand it rightly, is a t o Wizen but then it was not a permanent state of disease, it was more a state of paroxysm. frelaad is always combustible, but she is not always on fire.— ( Heer. hear.) When the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir is 1), ( 1) c ame before the public as a candidate for the high official situation which he now holds, he announced himself under the type of a physician, and used, if I recollect rielitly, several metaphors drawn from medical science; and to follow out the same metaphor, I shall say that I think Ir e l an d i s not in a hopeless condition. I admit that it is a patient that has a bad habit upon it, but what I say is this, that its malady is one which, had it been properly treated, might have been kept off, and the patient might again regain its usual health ; but as the treatment, on the contrary, has been one of continual irritation, what other could be the result but to pr dues paroxysm after paroxysm, each more violent than the last, and seeming likely, unless some decisive step is adopted, to end in terrible consequences? It is, I conclude, impossible to deny that the administration of Lord Melbourne was an administration popular with the great body of the Catiro:ie population of Ireland.—(Cheers.) It is, I believe, impossible to doubt that the two Viceroys who were sent to Ireland by that Aslininistration had a greater share of the affections of the great body of the Irish people than any Viceroys since the time of William the Third.—(Cheers.) We know that, during his administration, great perils threat ened the empire in other parts ; but we know that to Ireland the Government could always look with confidence. —( Loud cheers.) When designing men had raised disturbances in England, which threatened insurrec tion, troops could be spared from Ireland.—(Loud cheers. ) When an insurrection broke out in one of our colonies—an in surrection of a very peculiar kind—an insurrection with which we might have supposed the Irish Catholics would have sym patiii•ed, seeing that it was the insurrection of a Catholic po pulation against the conquering - English people, the Irish Ca tholics remained faithful—(Loud cheers)—in all things to the general Government of the empire.—( Continued sheering. ) Ireland was able to spare troops for Canada.—(lmmense cheering. ) No person, I believe, doubts that if, in in 1540, by some fatal mischance, a foreign army had dropped upon the shores of Munster—no one doubts but that they would have met with as good a reception—that they would have been as firmly met as if they had landed on the sho.es of Kent or of Norfolk—( Hear, hear)—by a determi nation on the part of the whole population to support the throne of Queen Victoria.—( Hear, hear.) And under what circumstances, and by what means has this great change been produced ? Not by any great legislative boon con ferred upon the Irish people by the Government—( Cheers) —for although they have the inclination, they have not the power against a strong minority in this House, and a strong majority in the other House of Parliament, to carry any such legislative measures.— (Cheers. ) It was effected msraiy by the executive Administration—(Cheers)—crossed and thwarted at every turn, having against it the whole of the Established Church, and the greater part of the landed gentry of this ceuntry.—( Cheers.) Yet with such an Opposition they managed to conciliate the af fections of the great body of the Irish people, and I cannot help thinking that if during those six years that Administration had been as strong in l'arliamentary support as the present Ad ministration—if it had been able fully and effectually to ex.. tene to Ireland the benefits of the British Constitution, the effects of such legislation would have been such as to make all the friends of Ireland rejoice.—(Loud cheers.) But during those six years an Opposition, powerful in numbers, was ranged against the Government.—( Cheers.) Those Lords-Lieutenant who were more popular in Ireland than any Lord-Lieutenant who had preceded them—were assailed as no other Viceroys had even been assailed—(Cheers)—and assailed too for those very portions of their administration—which were the chief modes of conciliating the people of Ireland.—( L ou d c h eers .) E very Legislative Act without exception, which was intended by the Governnytnt for the benefit of Ireland, and which was popular with the Irish people, was rejected.—(Cheers. ) When Catho lic gentlemen of high abilities and of stainless character, were placed i t situations which were much below their merits, their appointment was hailed with the greatest satisfaction by their countrymen—(Cheers)—and no wonder that they were so after 150 years of persecution, during which, doubtless, elo qusnee as fervid and abilities as great as those of my Right Honourable and Learned Friend the Member for Durigarvon. had withered in utter obscurity under the iefluence of penal and disabling laws.—(Loud cheers.) During that century and a half of persecution no Irish Ca. tholic had 'ism to honour, except by deserting his country ; and when at last a Catholic was sworn of the Queen's counsel, a Catholic was seated at the Board of Admiralty, the great 'fury party set up such a yell of dislike as Lord George Gordon drew from the great mob of his followers. We have seen some specimens of that eloquence revived; but the leaders of the party, even at that time, seldom joined in the cry, though I could mention instances, and one eminent in stance, to the contrary.—(Hear, hear.) 'I he leaders of the party were content, as far as I can recollect, with listening to it, with enjoying it, with profiting by it.—( Ironical cheers from the Opposition.) It was not necessary that they should do more.—( Renewed cheers.) " Are they not aliens?" was the phrase of an eminent person.—(Loud cheers from the Op position.) " Minions of Popery," was the epithet of another. —( Hear, hear.) While the Catholic priesthood, which is re garded with the greatest reverence and love in Ireland—do Iwe not reme m b r th at th ey were called " a demon priesthood, " " priests of Baal," " false prophets of Jezebel," feeding at her board ?—( Cheers.) But not content with insult, not content with throwing out and mutilating every measure which would have been beneficial to Ireland, the Opposition of that day as sumed the offensive—they determined to bring in a legislative measure for the purpose of depriving Ireland of every benefit which she had derived from the Reform Bill. They brought in an Act which they called an Act of Registration. They themselves now admit that it would have been an act of disfranchisement. I take the description of that Act from their own lips. They admit now that a ne.v light has broken in upon them. Has a single new fact been brought for ward, which has not been urged twenty, thirty, or forty times over in this House. In point of fact, they do not find themselves at liberty to ruin the country, except when they are out of place and want to get into it.—(Cheering from the Cpposition, and ironical cheers from the Ministerial benches. ) Well, Sir, in place they are ; it was very fitting that such ser vice should have its reward, and it had its reward.—(Cheers and laughter. ) Several causes undoubtedly concurred to place them in the situation which they occupy, but I believe the principal cause to have been the discontent which they excited in England against the Irish policy of their predecessors. In their eagerness for victory, they called up a spirit of great power—a spirit much more easily evoked than laid—the spirit of religious intolerance.—(Cheers.) It placed them in their , situations, and then their punishment began.—(Cheers and laughter.) It was pleasant, indeed, very pleasant to get all the advantage of the sermons of the Rev. Hugh IlPNeile, and of the speeches of the Rey. Hugh Stowell ; it was very plea sant to have their own cause represented by High Churchmen, and by Low Churchmen, and by Dissenters, as the cause of the Gospel struggling against that spurious liberalism which made no difference between religions truth and religious falsehood. It was very pleasant to hear that their political foes were the slaves of Antichrist, and were marked with the sign of the Beast. All this was very pleasant at that time, but when they had attained power, they found that there were about eight millions of Catholics in Ireland, whom, either by themselves or their agents, they had been insulting and degrading. What was the necessary result? I give them credit for not wi s hin g to do the smallest harm beyon what was necessary for over throw tug the late Administration.—(Cheers.) They regret that they cannot find a sufficient number of Conservative Ca tholics whom they would be justified in promoting at the Irish bar, and they express a similar feeling with respect to gentlemen in this House. But what I wish to know is this— why are all the Roman Catholics in the empire their enemies? Who ever heard of such a thing before ? Here you have about eight millions of people, of all sorts, characters, and professions, peers, lawyers, merchants, peasants--men belonging to every rank in society.— (Ilear, hear.) At their head is the Premier Duke of the Empire—(Hear, hear)—the hereditary Earl Marshal—the heir of the Fitzallans and the Mowbrays— (Cheers)—while, on ihe other hand, you may go down into the lowest ranks of Roman Catholics, anti find enmity exist ing, such as hardly ever before was heard of.—( Hear, hear.) If, indeed, there was something in the Roman Catholic religion peculiarly opposed to the general system of the politics adopted by the Honourable Gentlemen opposite I could understand the thing, but that subject was ably touched upon in my Noble Friend's opening speech.—( Hear.) Is it the fact that the Catholic theologian is peculiarly likely to ally himself with the cause of civil liberty ? Quite the eons teary. Of all forms of Christianity the Catholic religion is that which attaches the greatest importance to antiquity and authority, which rests most on the grounds of prescription, and which, even by its rites, its vestments, and its language, would seem bound up with Conservative polities.—(Cheers.) Was there a single Catholic in the army of Fairfax—(Cheers)—and how many hundreds of Catholic gentlemen came forward on behalf of Charles the First?—(Cheers.) When a reward was put upon the head of Charles the Second did any Catholic be tray him ?—(Cheers.) When, at the close of the last century, attacks were made by republicans upon the old monarchies, who stood by the monarchy ? The Catholics.—(Cheers.) It way so in La Ventle—( Cheer s)—it was so in Spain.—( Cheers. ) It was the greatest mistake that was ever made for Govern- meat to set itself against the great body of the Catholics. All those who were acquainted with Mr. Pitt, and those who are acquainted with Mr. Burke's writings, from which Mr. Pitt derived his opinions, know that both Mr. Pitt and Mr. Burke regarded the Catholics as friendly to monarchy.— ( Cheers.) Nothing except madness in a Government can possibly account for this peculiarity.—(Cheers.) The dis ciples of Mr. Pitt, while they professed to keep his birthday, seemed little aware of the views which he took on that subject.—(Cheers.) Now see in what does all this end. You are forced to bestow your patronage on your friends—you cannot give it to the Catholics—an antipathy to your Government is excited —your appointments neces sarily go on, and will go on, as far ai I can see, increasinc , that antipathy, unless Parliament adopt some final and decisive remedv.—( Hear, hear. ) The Emancipation Act, as far as respects all the favours of the Crown, is as much a nullity as regards the Catholics of Ireland as if it never had been passed at all. Of all the boons which the Right Hon. Baronet promised to bestow upon them in 1829, they have only received one, and that would not have been continued to them if the Tory party had carried the Irish Registration Bill. All that follows is no wonder. The wounded national spirit, the wounded religious spirit, starts up and shows itself in a hundred forms, some of which I deplore, some of which I deeply condemn, but none of which can excite my amazement, not - le of which seems to me to be anything except the national effect of gross mis-government, acting on strong sensibility. You refuse to admit the Roman Catholic into the communion of the Constitution, and you wonder that he finds himself on a narrow stage. Turn wherever lie he finds every high place filled, every office in the hands whom he considers, and not without reason, as his enemies. What more natural than that people in such a situation should array against the regular con stitutional authorities, the strong defence of their own opi nions ? They remember—it woulkbe strange if they did not remember—what their efforts, under the same guidance, extorted in 18:29, and they are determined to try whether a similar effort may not be equally successful now. These, then, are your difficulties, and, in my opinion, they are difficulties of your own making. Well, then, having made them, let it be remembered that after all, difficulties are the tests of great statesmen. Eminent men have sometimes brought themselves into difficulties, and have admirably retrieved their error by the manner in which they overcame them.—( Hear. ) Let us then see, how, with regard to your difficulties, you mean to act. First, with respect to legislation. The legislation which we had last session for the evils of Ireland, was all com- prised in an Arms Bill—( Hear, hear)—not a measure of con ciliation, not worth naming as a measure of coercion ; but simply a measure of petty annoyance.—( Hear, hear.) It was a mea,ure which, as far as I could judge, satisfied neither side of the House. We called out for boons for Ireland, and many Hon. Gentlemen opposite called for more stringent mea sures.—( Hear.) Indeed, if I recollect rightly, one Noble and Learned Lord bestowed the aid of his counsel on the Govern ment by recommending an Irish Coercion Bill, but the only legislative measure passed was the Arms Bill. as regards the measures of the Executive Administration, of the manner iu which they have dealt with this agitation. I merely mention them to protest, in the strongest manner, against the statement of the Noble Lord, that amongst reasonable men there cannot be two opinions about the Clontarf proclamation ; for that the Government had done everything which it was possible to do to prevent a breach of the peace.--(Hear, hear.) I say that, from the statement of the Government, it appears that in the meeting of Friday the resolution was formed; and could you not have taken up a pen, and have written three lines, to say that the Government apprehended a breach of the peace, and therefore that all goad subjects should avoid going to the meeting?--( Hear, hear.) I. that a composition which required the weighing of sentences— I ment would not have sentence passed upon him, but would allow the judgment to hang over his head. He hoped the House would not suppose for a moment that he meant to advocate the cause of repeal ; he was its most strenuous opponent, and every man in England would, he felt assured, take up arms, if it was necessary, to prevent its being carried into effect--(Hear, hear.) It would be throwing Ireland into the arms of Fra , ce. But if O'Connell were sent to prison what would be the consequence ? Would not he still retain his influence over the priests ? Would not the priests exercise their power over their flocks ? The people of Ireland might remain passive, but what if they did not pay rent or. taxes ? Thousands might be ejected for rent, but they could not eject millions. Then, in case of war with France or America, how would this country be situated ?—(Hear, hear.) He remembered the last war—when, even with our supe rior fleet, French vessels reached Ireland. Now there were war steamers, and with a disaffected people, it would be almost impossible to prevent France from making an impression upon Ireland. lie did not believe that at the present moment the Irish were disloyal ; but if they were treated in the manner they had been, their loyal feelings would be entirely alienated.—_-(Hear, hear.) It might be said that it was imprudent to men tion those things, but was it not better to mention them in times of peace,' when remedies could be applied than in time of war, when it would be too late.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the Noble Lord, the Member for the City of London, had made a very moderate speech, and he thought the proposal for doubling the grant to May nooth College very reasonable and very proper. He further agreed with the Noble Lord in thinking that the Catholic hierarchy ought to be acknowledged by their titles, and that Government should ordain the mi nisters of that Church. The Hon. Member's dislike to the Roman Catholics reminded him that he had been in Scotland some time ago on a visit with some friends of his. They were elderly ladies—(Laughter)—in short, they were old maids.--(Renewed laughter.) He asked them their opinions of the Catholics and the Episcopa lians, and they said it was impossible the Catholics could 'be saved, and even of the Episcopalians they had great doubts.—(A laugh.) He would read some lines from an old book, which he had copied for the purpose of reading to that House : " They cried the mass down, 'cause (they said) The priest in unknown language prayed. And yet themselves their prayer-book sent To such as knew not what it meant ; And it was read, and psalms were sung, And sermons preached in English tongue, Among wild Irish, when not one Knew what they said, but cried ' 0 hone !" 0 hone !' they cried, and shook their head With grief, to change their mass and bead For what they knew to be a prayer No more,- poor souls ! than Banks's mare." (The Gallant Commodore proceeded to narrate an anecdote about Banks's mare and the six-and- fourpenny stallion, amid the laughter of the House.) That was not so liberal as the Right Hon. Baronet, because he gave his bull for nothing.—(Roars of laugh ter.) He (Sir Charles Napier), however, did not think that such a bull would satisfy Ireland.—(Continued laughter.) The Noble Lord the Member for Sunder- ~ land had supposed the case of England being smaller than Ireland, and that Ireland had, with a large force, conquered England, and established in this country the Catholic religion. Now this was the position in which Ireland was now placed. There was no possibility of Ireland conquering England ; but he (Sir C. Napier) would suppose a case that was perfectly possible. Let them suppose that Bonaparte, when he had an enor mous army at Boulogne, of two or three hundred thou sand men, with an enormous flotilla, which, for some time, had bewildered our fleet in such a manner that, if the French Emperor had had a further force of forty six sail of the line, he could have proceeded up the Channel. Now let them, under these circumstances, sup pose that Napoleon had conquered England, and after wards that he had been unwise enough to have brought over with him French parsons, and that he had turned all the clergy out of their different livings, and the bishops out of their dioceses, and had directed the new clergy to preach in a language the people of this country did not understand—he (Sir C. Napier) asked whether this country, under these circumstances, would have remained long quiet?—(Hear, hear.) He thought they would not have been long before they had made some effort to drive the French out of England. So with the Irish. They were now attempting to drive the. English parsons out of their country. The Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, in his speech, went further than the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir C. Napier) thought he was right in doing so.— (Cheers.) The Noble Lord, in the first place, wished the whole Protes tant Establishment of Ireland to be turned over to the Catholics. He (Sir C. Napier) could not go quite so far as that, but he quite concurred in another proposition of the Noble Lord, which was, that the Catholics should have a portion of the proceeds of the Protestant Esta blishment, which, in point of fact, was the same propo sition as that which had been made by the Hon. Mem ber for Sheffield. The Noble Lord proposed that the Catholics of Ireland should have a portion of the tithes collected in that country, and he (Sir C. Napier) thought it was but a reasonable proposition, and ought to be en tertained. Another proposition with respect to this sub ject was, that the Establishment in Ireland should be abolished, and the proceeds given for the purposes of education. Who would be injured if the Establishment in Ireland were abolished, and how great would be the benefit if the proceeds were given towards the education of all classes of the community ? He, however, was afraid that the nation at large would not take this view of the case.—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial beaches.) They would not be prepared for it.—(Hear, hear.) In order, therefore, to prepare them for it, the Government should make a beginning. The Government ought to show a willingness to do justice to the people of Ireland, and the nation would soon follow them.—(Hear, and cheers.) This was what they must come to at last. How was Catholic emancipation obtained ? It was a kind of " Thank you for nothing."—(Laughter.) It was re sisted as long as possible, and yet, at last, the Right Hon. Baronet—much to his credit, it was true--brought forward the measure ; but then it was only a " Thank you for nothing" affair.— (Laughter.) Justice for Ireland would be conceded, but not until it was taken, as Ca tholic emancipation had been taken, as a kind of " Thank you for nothing." The Church in Ireland, as at present constituted, could never be maintained. Sooner or later the Right Hon. Baronet must come for ward with some.measure of conciliation, and the sooner he did so, the happier would be the people of the country at large. Now he (Sir C. Napier) had a plan to pro pose, which was simply this--that whenever a living in Ireland became vacant, instead of appointing another person, the proceeds of the living should go to the Treasury, to be applied to the purposes of education. It was inconsistent with common sense that a parish in 1 which the number of Protestants was so few that the clergyman was obliged to preach to his clerk and two or three others—it was inconsistent with common sense that, under these circumstances, a clergyman should be appointed with a large . salary. The. Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies had said that the Catholics would not accept a portion of the proceeds of the Pro testant Establishment, even if it were offered to them. Why, did not that show the greatest moderation on the part of the Catholics ? Did it not show that they did not wish to rob the Church at all ? But they at the same time wished to be placed in the same position as the Protestants. It had been said that the tithes in Ireland had been commuted, and that the land lords were the parties who paid the tithes. Who was it, he would ask, that paid the landlord ? Suppose the landlord had two farms on his estate ; one he let to a Protestant and the other to a Catholic tenant—the Pro testant had a church found fOr him, but the Catholic was obliged to pay for his.—(Hear, hear.) It was contrary to common sense to suppose that the Catholic could cope with his neighbour the Protestant. He (Sir C. Napier) would just relate an anecdote bearing upon this subject. He was going on the road to Cork, in a common fly, and he met a very decent-looking young lady— (Laughter)—he saw, that she was a decent and respec table-looking girl.—(Continued laughter.) This was no joke. He said to the young girl, " I suppose you are all the better now the tithes are commuted, and the proprietors pay all the tithes ?" She said, with the utmost naivete, " Do you see that man working? He has got a bit of garden for which he is obliged to pay tithes to the Protestant clergyman, who he thinks is sending his soul to the devil, and he is obliged to pay to the Ca tholic priests'to prevent his going there."—(Laughter.) What did this show, but that the Catholic, in point of, faith had to pay two tithes ? The Noble Lord, the Se cretary for the Colonies, in the course of .his speech the other night, read in the most solemn manner, the oath which was taken by the Catholic Members of that House. He (Sir Charles Napier) could not help say ing, that this was an insult to the Catholic Members of that House.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, after that, inquired, if it was proposed to send the Catholic Bishops into the House of Lords, because unless they did, he said, there could be no equalisation. His (Sir C. Napier's) answer to that was, that he would send no more Bishops into the House of Lords, because there were too many there already.—(Laughter.) He would not say whether he would wish to see those out who were in at present. He would ask the Noble Lord whether he would continue to pay a Protestant clergy man a large salary, where there was no congregation ? Could there be a more unjust thing than that ? He looked upon the idea as absurd. They had for the last 300 years been endeavouring to make all the people of Ireland Protestants, but they had not succeeded, and he thought that everybody must see that such an attempt could never succeed. Let the Right Hon. Baronet and his' colleagues come forward with some comprehensive measure with regard to Ire land. Much had been said about social rights in that country, but these were not the only rights they had to consider. There were others equally important. The people of this country would never believe that the Ro man Catholic religion was the true one. They had been taught by their parents to follow the Protestant religion as the only proper one. If then this was the case in England, let Hon. Members opposite show some liberality of opinion towards the Irish Catholics. They had been educated in their youth to look upon the Ro man Catholic religion as the only true one, and it had been inculcated upon them as the most perfect one. These were his sentiments, and he hoped and trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet, and Hon. Gentlemen who were, with him, would get rid ere long of these preju dices, and that ultimately such measures would be adopted with respect to Ireland as would give satisfac tion to the country at large. Mr. GORE said that allusion had been made to the Church of Scotland, but he did not think that the cases of the Scottish and Irish churches were parallel cases. Considering the anomalous position in which the Church stood, it was their duty to remove the inequality which deprived the Chiirch of respect and power, and to render it what it ought to be—the source of religion and happi ness to the people. If the Government were to intro duce measures of such a tendency, he would give his _ . j the weighinss of words, when you should have beer, weigbing the lives of the Queen's subjects? No rational person will, lam sure, venture to say that, if there had been in the minds of the rulers of Ireland a proper sense of the hazard which they were running, the proclamation would not have been vi sible on all hands early on the Saturday morning. Now, the charge I bring against the Government on account of these prosecutions, is one respecting the details which have been mentioned. The charge is this, that the Government seems never to have considered the nature and character of those proceedings, and wherein they differ from a common action at law—a mere 9555 tans action. It seems to me they considered nothing but this—whether they would get such a declaration of law and such evidence of facts as would entitle them to a verdict and a judgment. Now, in my own opinion, the judgment in any political case is but a small part of that for which a Government ought to be solicitous.— ( Hear, hear.) I should say that this is the only political case in which a Government has been merely solicitous for that alone. What a Government should seek to obtain ought to be, by an exhibition of justice and modera tion, to produce a salutary effect upon the public mind. ( Hear, hear.) Of course, the law must be strictly observed ; but to cause the law to be strictly observed is only one of the main conditions which would make a wise Government insti tute great criminal State proceedings. And if ever there was a proceeding in which your justice ought to stand is such a light as not to be questioned, or to have any prejudices enter tained against it, it was the case which you had to try. You were instituting a prosecution —I feel considerable delicacy in speaking on the matter in the presence of the person chiefly connected with it, and that delicacy is increased by the succes sion of invectives which I have heard uttered against the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to-night. I regard the end that Hon. and Learned Gentleman is pursuing as unattainable ; and that I look with deep disapprobation upon some of the means which he employed for that end Ido not deny. But I would wish, whilst speaking on the subject, to observe the respect due to enemies, the respect due to misfortune, and the respect due to truth.—(Opposition cheers.) It is impossible to deny that that gentleman occupies, in the eyes of his fellow countrymen, a position such as no popular leader mentioned in all history ever occupied.—( Cheers from the Opposition benches.) Let us consider, too, that the interest with which he and his movements are regarded is not confined to these islands, it extends to the Continent. You cannot sit down to dine at any table d'hote—(Laughter from the Ministerial benches)._ you cannot travel in any steam-boat or diligence, but the moment your speech or your accent " bewrayeth thee" as an Englishman, the first question which the merchant or manufacturer from the heart of France.—which the plain cultivator, who is not much above the level of our yeomen, put to you—is, what is to b ecome o f O'Connell?—( Oh, oh, from the Ministerial benches.) Let those who deny this assertion take the trouble to read the French journals. —( Opposition cheers.) I declare this to be a most undoubted fact. It is an unhappy circumstance, but it is one impos sible to dispute, that there is throughout the Continent a feeling with respect to the relations between England and Ireland not very much unlike the feeling with which men generally regard the relations between Russia and Poland. I do not defend this feeling ; I do not say it is a right one ; I only assert a fact, which I can prove. And it is natural that it should be so ; for, in the first place, not to mention the immense jealousy which the power of England naturally produces, the with which anything great and conspicuous —such as the position of England is—is regarded, the Irish agitation has that in it which enlists on its side the sympathies of the two great divi sions, Liberal and Conservative, into which the population of France is divided. Its democratic character attaches to it the followers of the " extreme left," while its being Roman Catholic attaches to it the members of the Conservative party, Thus it happens that on this subject there is a variety of opinions on the Continent, which would not easily be found on any other question.—( Hear, hear.) I hope and trust that I shall be believed when I state that I do not mention this for the purpose of frightening the English Government into taking any course unworthy of it, but I do say that in a case of this sort it is of the highest importance that the administration of justice should be beyond all impeachment—that anything which would look like an unfair advantage should not be wet. corned, but spurned away, and considered a greater disaster than any other evil. Is it a case in which the first opinion on the question of the jury is that Mr. O'Connell has suffered wrong sin the matter? Is it denied, if the law had been carried exactly into effect, without fault or negligence, that Mr. O'Connell's case would not have been damaged ? Has any person ventured to deny that ? I have the word of one of the Learned Counsel for the defence, and the affidavit states it, that twenty-seven Roman Catholics were excluded from the jury.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from Mr. Shell.) Take the Recorder's own statement ; it is very easy to talk about 716 names, or something of that sort, but reduce the thing to simple arithmetic, and see what it is.— ( Hear, hear.) You were going to call forty-eight names ; Now what is the 48th part of 720 ? It is 15 ; if those 15 were Roman Catholics, there was an even chance that there would have been another Roman Catholic in the 48. But if, as the affidavit states, there were 27 Catholics, then there was nearly two chances to one that there would be two Catholics among the 48, and thus there was almost an even chance of there being two more Roman Catholics on the list. Now will any man tell me that Mr. O'Connell has not in this matter suffered a distinct wrong ? Will any person say that it is impossitle, or even highly im probable, that the result might have been different if it had not been for this blunder? For remember the power which the law gives to jurymen is such, that a single juryman, if he is determined, and has absolutely made up his mind, may have quite as much influence in affecting a verdict as ad the other eleven. Is this my opinion alone ? What is the language of Mr. Justice Perrin, as I find it reported in the papers favourable to the prosecution. He says, " there is about this case such gross negligence and failure of duty that I am not prepared to say it was the r esu lt of acci dent."—( Loud crie s o f " H ear , hear," ' from Mr. Sheil.) Here is one of your judges, and you call on us to pay the most pro found respect to all that your judges say—here is one of your judges, who says that " he is not satisfied that this was the effect of accident." He must know a great deal better than I do, or than any Englishman can know, what sort of tricks are practised in an Irish office when the object is to procure a jury to convict; and he says " he is not sa tisfied that this is the effect of accident." But I will come nearer home. 7he Right lion. Secretary for the Home Department, says, and says truly, " We are not responsible for the case." I know you are not. " I regret deeply that it has taken place, and I wish it had been otherwise ; for I feel the prejudice it has created against the Administration of justice." What has been said on the other side is precisely what I say ; " a prejudice has been created against the admi nistration of justice," which has tainted the whole of the proceedings. I do not wish for stronger words than those of the Right Honourable Baronet, but I wish that the fact were not so; when in a great and important case—a case upon which the eyes of millions—the eyes of all civilised Europe was fixed—a mistake had taken place which created " a prejudice against the administration of justice." I wish Government had taken a rational view of the matter, and said, 4 , We cannot avail ourselves of it." Hon. Gentlemen oppo site seem to think that with respect to striking off the Roman Catholics from the jury, they have made out a good case. I am ready to , admit that, in a certa i n sense, they have made out a good case. lam ready to take the facts as you put them. I take it, as you say, that it was ass excellent thing to strike off all the Roman Catholics. But there is still the question, was it politic in this State trial to bring different religions and different races to their trial before a jury of Protestants only ?—(Hear, hear.) It is a plain question for every man of common sense. I know that the law was on the side of the Government, and my charge against them, from the beginning to the end of these proceedings, is with regard to the law. We know what are the principles of the law in such a case ; every thing that can create a prejudice in the matter is carefully avoided; we know what the principle de mediatate lingua' is. In the case of a Dutch sailor, or of any other "alien," who, in a quarrel might stab an Englishman, he is not left to be tried by a jury of twelve Englishmen, but by a jury composed of half his own race and half of Englishmen. Now if any " alien" had been in the situation of Mr. O'Connell, he would have been entitled to a jury half composed of his countrymen ; you are ready enough to call the Irish Roman Catholics " aliens" when it serves your purpose.—(Loud cheers from the Oppo sition.) You are ready enough to treat them as " aliens" when you think it your interest to do so. But it is only when you are going to form a jury that you do not treat the Roman Catholics as " aliens."—( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) Is it possible for any reasonable man to doubt that in a case where the feelings of two sects, of two parties, were greatly excited against each other, that a jury com posed exclusive of one sect, and from one party, would not do justice? This is the opinion of a much better lawyer than I am, for I, indeed, am no lawyer. But why did not the Sheriff impannel a common jury, which would have contained several Roman Catholics ? The difficulty in such a case would have been none, and that the trial would then have tended much better to the settlement of men's minds I have not the least doubt. You wished to get a verdict, and you got a panel, and from that panel a jury, from which no man could expect justice. And then you got a charge, which I. do not mean to say is unprecedented, for doe State trials of the seventeenth century furnish suoh precedents—( Loud Opposition cheers)—and after this charge you got a verdict, and what are you now the better for it ? Has it tended to conciliate the people of Ireland? You say Ireland is quiet ; I know that it is so, and it will be so till the sentence begins to be executed, and for the most obvious reasons too, because the Irish people feel a deep interest in the fate of the man whom they consider their leader, and 'they will avoid doing anything likely to place him in a more dangerous position.--( Hear, hear.) But your difficulties will commence when the Court shall have finished its labours. By what means can you expect there will not be a very se rious outbreak of public feeling then ?—( Hear, hear.) Is it possible for a human being to believe that that man, who pos sessed the boundless affection of his countrymen, while he was receiving honours from them, and while he was taxing them. will at once lose his popularity, when he becomes a martyr? I, who am as much attached to the union as any Hon. Gentle man opposite, who dislike the means that have been used to inflame the minds of the people of Ireland against the union-- I feel that Mr. 0 Connell will not lose Isis popularity. The Right lion. Baronet himself tells us that be is sorry to say " a prejudice has been created against the ad ministration of justice." And if Englishmen, the friends of the union, are deeply convinced of the fact that there has beer., great unfairness, what is the feeling of the Irish people ?—a people who are not too well informed, and who agree with Mr. O'Connell on the question of the union, not only as to its being a hard, but an unjust measure, and who believed every speech he uttered on the sub ject as perfectly justifiable? What are we to expect to be their feelings ? Will not the power and magic of Mr. O'Connell's name be just as great when shut up in a prison as when at large ? But you will not have his personal in fluence, which has been so often, from whatever motives, ex erted to prevent the Irish people from proceeding to violence and extremity. At the same time see what has been the manner in which you have dealt with the agita tion ? And now, for the future, as to your execu tive measures, they are still to be things of the same sort. What you gave given us hitherto were soldiers, barracks, un wise proclamations, and unjust State prosecutions. As to your legislative measures, we are, it is true, to have this Bill for the Registration of Irish voters, coupled with a Bill on the subject of the franchise. What provisions those measures are to con tain we cannot say. All we know, and can say with confi dence on this subject, is that it is impossible for you to legislate tioon it at once with credit to yourselves, with benefit to the Irish people.—(Opposition cheers.) All we can with confi dence say is this—the measure you mean to introduce must either destroy the last remains of the representation of Ireland, or the last remains of your own character and existence. With respect to the Landlord and Tenant Commission, I say nothing upon the subject until we have the report. Nothio has yet been done, and when we shall have the report Dam,' long 0 n can say. But I feel that I have been trespassing, ')7on Berne the House.—(Cries or " No, no," and " Go on it - nsportance-- future occasion perhaps I may have an opp ort un i t y r length into a subject of the gravest d h going at and all I will do now is to take s some I mean the question of the Established Church in f in th l e reland who vote with the Government, must say, that from gentlemen man ner in which that question fie b met on either side, for I we have had declarations of like seadeenhOthing, so far From the Ministers wh o so ns ,) —I mean that sort of liberality which is not accompanie and profess to follow them , h tl a reh ve as I have ob served. , e d". The Established Church, if we are t o j u d by a v ote espokenworthy we fYof from them, will not be touched.—(Hear.) A : the speech of the Noble Lord (Stanley), I m confess that it is impossible for me not t _---' - tho vi ; ocig • Sidesor no. I ?'" rate' noD let one) ntrY her ° ;11t Sj!C rrePt ;lish OE,re ,„se, helot for 010 hie s Wpb U~ , .ligC Wt?: .