The Sun. — London, England, 1803-07-16 00:00:00

JMPERML PARLIAME„NT. HOUSE QF ..PEERS, int IDA'Y JULY 15. Tilt Order of the Day respeding the Appeal,. Lothian v. Henderson and Co. being read, The L*l) CHANC,ELLOR. rest, and "at considerable length delivered his opinion upon the case. The Learned loriktitily noticed, in the course of his observations, the poi. niorts"delivercd by the [udges, and concluded by submitting a'Resolation to the adoption of their Lordships, tending to .affirm the leading Interlocutor of the Scotch Court, and with , respeeho othir parts of the case, forming a result in Payour cf the RespOndents. Lord ALVA*LAY delivered his opinion upon the case, wh4th, a great' measure, seemed to tally with . that of the Noble and Learne4 Lord on the Woolsack. Th: ciUt:Stioll Was then put on the LO XD C HANCELLORS Mot irai, and the Resolution was adopted accordingly. Several Bills were brought up from the Commons' by Mr. MA:CA NDER, Sir J. W. ANlnit SON, arid othzr Gentlemen. The . Bills upon the Table were furwatcled in their several ;r~;;e, The Order of the Day for the third leading of Queen Ann's Rounty Bill being inured,' - .. 1 4 The Hari of SUFFOLK, pursuant to his I , ,lotice, r6sV to make some olfserviitiOns in reference to Ilse rileasnre. Tisc Bill,was cif the greateta consequence, be ob3erved, to the Laity, aTit atfeaed ,the in.. terests of the loWer order of the Clergy . ; but as it • was framed, he disapproved of it. First, as it fell fee short of the object in Y : rind secondly, as it went to trench.upon that must excellent Statute the tilortmain, which 'this tende'd -to repeal by one sweeping' Clause. He should avOtd any repetition • of whet he had formerly. said upon the subject as much as possible, but htewentdergain repeat his opi. hit no Clergyman in this Country should at present have an Income of less .thao tool, a year. One. of ih expedients- he .hael recommended as Proper for augmenting the Incomes of the, poorer Clergy, was an immediate augmeirtation. of the present first.fruits and tenths, to double their speounr, which he calculated would produce 30,0001. The" present Bill had e prnspeBive operation, bat. what.lie proposed would operate almost immediate. .Aricither•oxpedient eves the exenion oaf -a real • first e fruit. and tenth, 'which, according to a Report li e f ere • t h e . House, would proditce ten times their present, amount in aid of this fund. He thought a contribution shotild be' made . from livittes of 3001: a . year and op - wards alai. per cent. Those exceed.: ing Boot. a year might _pay or g.per cent. He dwelt on the propriety and policy of augmenting ' the incomes of, the poorer Clergy. He referred to, tbr.,exhortations of .a Reeerend Prelate (the Bishop of LemsoAre). in his celebrated Letters to the Me.-' tropolitan, on the sUbjea, some extreds from which In read,,chielly relative' to the contributions reports. mended from the Pans and other digriitarieS of the Church, towards the' relief of the. lower Clergy. After again adverting to the ili efr,.4ls of a repeat at the Statute of Mortmain, principles at which 'he described to . be founded on those ot Magna afarta, he renewed his observations with respe4 to the cessity of amending the coedit-ion of the lower orders of the Clergy. lie repeated his .obeereations re. spe6ting the share which he conceived the clerical system bad in bringing:About :the Revolution . in France. •He despaired of equalizing the incomes of, ' the Bishoprics, and proceeded to make such ob. atteatime. with tespecet w the Keverend Bench', that the cry of 4 .‘ Order" resounded hum all parts Of ihe Home. Noble Earl then repeated several of his lnrtne . robservatiOns with%treiped to the tyth, l'og system' in this Country, and also in Ireland, in such a way as indUced . The of Lim ERIc It to ti l / 4 e to Order, and to slniirritivolr upon some of tie observations of the NOble Earl, as totally foreige front the Sulejett. The 4arl of qViisFpLK proceeded' to deliver Lis sentimeets' 6 gp,ll Se', et HI t he points he had advelied to---He spoke of his intention to take . an trail)/ opportunity in the next Session of Parliament to ; move for the appointMent'of a Cominteee to ie_ gave into the general sithject, Ha concluded by moving! that the be cad*. second time this this swta months. Bilhop If'ST. AS APH observed; that by what fell from the 'Nobit Earl, he inte.t not have read'the gill with his tbual attentive' penetration. He would detain their Lotdthips very shortly ; he could not suffer the Noble Earl's 'assertion that the Bill by one sweeping ciattse repealed the Statute 'of Mortrnainit did not repeal that. Statute, norieny otherwiSc area it, than by adding one to the cx. efriptions specified in 'that Statute,' namely, the Go.. vernors, &c. Of Queen Ann's Bounty.' ?'he LURD COANCALLOR followed, and at some length commented noon several of the positions advanced by the Noble Earl, particularly with re. spelt to' the Statute of Mortmain—the Tything System, and the modes proposed by him for tog. nienting the incomes 'of. the lower orders of the Clergy. Most, of the observations made by the Noble Earl had no sort of reference. to the Bill he. litre the House, neither had he a correa idea of the •eetture and provisions, of the Statute of Martmain, Which the Noble and Learned Lord 'explained tech. ulcally in, the' course of : his speech. He could not s t r e ie ehserVing, that the atigmeotatioes proposed by the Noble Earl,- were entirely to be taken from theiecontee of the Clergy. When any thing, was tekun from a Layman there was a howl act up fur eompeneatione—no such regard was paid to the rase of t hi! Clergy. The Bene6ce de Clergyman when t:, , tented to him for life, was as much his Freehold' Property as that of any other person in the Co untry . The operation of the 'LAWS respeaing the Clergy Were animadverted Upon, when dune' in som e . re . ep&ts which may be made matter of just Roiniadver. , e soon tVitlr eespea to the Laity were overlooked. : Ile thought the present mode . of providing for ,the Clergy, undr.r ail the circumstances, the best that could he devised. • After animadverting in some degree of detail on the various other topics toustied ttpon by the Noble Earl, his Lorthhip expressedials assent to the present triCablire. 4 &id of SUFFOLK spoke in explanation, but touching principally upon what he deemed leading cease of the French w Revolution, . he as called to Order 11 the Bishop of Sr. ASAPH, who insisted the topic introduced by the Noble Earl had . no sort of connexion with the present subjetl. • The" Earl of Sureout, the Rev. Prelate, and the Lour) CHANCELLOR, haves - lay spoke after. wards, chiefly upon the question of (tethe.. br Aad sf LIMBRICK shortly Observed, that the Noble Earl kid better wait for the report a the Committee upon the subjea, which he intended to move for next Session. The Will was then read a third - time and pasnd. A short discussion took place between the Earl. Of RADNoR and the Lotus CHANCELLOR, on the subjeft of the Woollen Manufadtirers 13i11, in conse. .quenee :of_ a Bill proposed by -the former,,to the cf. fed, as we understood, of authorising the stay of the'proceedings on that subject in their'present state until the next Session of- Parliament, anti for sus. pending all prosecutions under the existing ads, &c. ; the grounds were, the extreme importance of the subjed, and the intricacy of it as it now stood, which could not be properly di s cussed, con.' sidering the very advanced state of the Session.— These reasons were generally coiuci:led . in by the LOiD CHANCELLOR, who noticed that the eiscus, sion of the subjed .in another place occupied from January to July. After some further oh3ervations fr%sm these Noble Peers, the Bill alltided to was read a first time, and ordered to be printed. Counsel and evidence were then called to the Bar, respeOing the Bristol Port and the subject fur. ther'discussed, after which, their Lordships further postponed the consideration of the Bill till Monday, to which day the House adjourned. HOUSE OF COMA:IONS, FR.) DAY, JULY 15. TH House went into a Committee on the'Scoteh Inland Navigation Bill, and the Report was mitred ro. be brought up to.tnorrow. A Wimge . from the Lords stated, that their Lotdships bad agreed to the Assessed Taxes Consu. lidation Bill, the Irish Revenue Colietlion Bill, and thf:Dublin Harbour Bill, without any Amendment. Central GASCOYNE brought up a f etition (ruin the Debtors confined in the Gaol of Liverpool, pray ing relief. The Puors Return Bill was read a third time and passcd, The Report of the Thames Police Bill was brought up, the. Amendments' read and agreed to, and the Jill( ordered to be read. a third time to.morrow. The Prize Court Bill was read a second.time and committed for Tuesday next. The House went into a Committee on the Chat. ham Chest Bill ; the Amendments were r ea d an d agreed, to ; t h e Report received, and tie Bill or. tiered to he printed. The Militia Arr,cmiment Bill was read a,'stcond time, and is to be committed to a Committee of the whole. Houle to,morrow. The Grenada Loan Bill wa4 read a second time and passed. . . Lord.C4er LE it fACH postponed his Motion on the . Indian Budget till Monday sennight. W/L/4/1,11 SgOTT rose, and' i n a s ho rt and impressive speecr informed the HOuse, that it was his intention to move for leave to bring in a Bill, for rendering more comfortable the situation of fi.tipendiar y Curates. . The nature of the Bill he should take the liberty to give .a short outline of, and he was sure the House, BS - Well as himself, were ready' to give encouragem ent t o rite inferior Cler g y. He did not know any body of men more entitled to legislative kindness than the poor Clergy. The Right Hon. Gentlemen then tools a view of the state of the Church, and observed, that by an early Statute, the Bishops were empowered to allow Curate soli and by a subsequent At that sum was increased to eel. a year. It had beeo P roposed, and strongly rccommentled by many well informed Gentlemen, that the Stipendiary Curate should have a large portion of the benefiee this measure, it was stoipbeti, would enforce the. residence 'of the, in. combent ; bet in his mind this measure would not do is it might be the means of throwing a large and valuable body of persons out of employ. It was his wish to allow the Stipendiary Curare a moderate but proper income, to render, his situation comfort. aide. A Curacy, in the essence of the;thing, was but a casual existence t he should tbetefore submit to the, House, that the income of the incumbent, amounting.to 401, should be subjea to a dedudion of one.fittli part for the support of the Curate, and in case the livi ng should b - a wool., the Curate will be'entitled to 2001. a year, -He must be per. mitted to observe, that there was no law which had • pros ideal the Curate with a residence, anti though parsonage houses were generally of sufficient mag. nitude to accommodate both incumbent and Curate, yet it was not always proper" or convenient that the CUrate should reside in the same' dwelling with the incumbent. It was necessary, therefore, for the House, at some early period, to take the sub. ~i4l into consideration, for the, purpose of .serving the poor Clergy. The Right Hon. Gentleman con. chided by moving - to bring in ,a Bill to-encourage 'Stipendiary Curutes...:—Leave granted. On the Order of the Day beitz read for the House to go into a Committee of the whole -House on the ,Church and Chapel Benefidiotrilill,--- Mr. FRANCIS requested, that part-of the Sta.. tote of Gen. 11. s h ou ld b e rea d ; a f ter wh i ch he ohs+ tied, the Bill now offered to the House would repeal that useful Ad of Geo. 11. which; prevented persons disposing.of their property to the thUrch, and leaving their families in distress. The . Hon. Gentleman urged many of his former arguments against the Bill, and expressed a wish that it should be postponed to next Sessions. Mr. BURTON entered into a long defeoei of 'the Bill, and repeated his former observations in its support, and added,' there was a Clause 'which. did not allow the legality of any gifts . by will, unless it was bequeathed three months before. the death of the devisor. Mr. CCU/ TZNAY Made Several observations on the Bill, and the Ails of Charles 11. Which allowed gilts to the Church ; the Hon. Gentleman then.. cited Blackstone, who had said, gg that per. sane{ night Letpeath a large provision for the. sup. port ok oae church with a very good intention,. and tow' a go'od purpose, but under a religious imPression gitre more than prudence ought to aired, and by that means leave distresfied their children anti relatives Tn ;" hit mind the AiA of Geo. H. was extremely useful "to' tile 'Country, and ought not, to, be rtptaltd 4.}-tany new. AO. Mr. liutcT .1' few olgervittion3 azairst BM. On the got stion •being put, that the SPEAKER do leave the Chair, the House divided. For the Sr EAx E R leaving the Chair, - 44 Against it, - 29 The House then went into a Committee, and a conversation took place between Mr. BURTON, Mr. H.l3RowNs, Mr. JOHNSTONE, and the SoLICITOR GENER AL, with resped to the Clause which ex presses, that the Will of any Person who bequeaths property to the. Church, Must be executed within three months before his or hertleath. It was pro. posed by way of amendment, that the term of twelve months stand part-of the Bill ; but on the question being put, the amendment was not agreed to. The House then resumed, and the Report ivae ordered to be rectived , :bn Monday next, tßisti LOAN. Mr.CORRY . said, that haying given notice that it was his intention in the Committee of Ways and Means this day, to state the Terms of the Loan for Ireland, if it should be contrataed for, he now rose to state that he should not have occ as i on to tr o u ble the House, except , merely for the purpose ofstating the result ,of the bidding for the Loan in Ireland on the t Ith July. The bidding was to , be in e per cent, stock ; and the sum of - ereti was, for every tool. in the 5 per cent. stock, 78. 15. which 'would make for every tool. sterling, ILI., 5 per cent. stock. On the capital which would' be created by such: a. Loan, the inheres; to be paid by, the Public would be 61. 9s. 9 d. per c e nt . w hil e t h e L oan , Which had' been contraded for in , England only bore an interest of gi. zs, ad. per cent. The difference therefore of. interest between the two countries was enormous, Here he begged leave to state another circumstance, which was a diflrence in the ptice of the 5 per cent's: previous to the bidding, and after it had been rtjaled. The 5 per cent's. left off on the Saturday previous to the Monday on which the bidding was to take place, at 861, which was below their fair price, when compared with the 31 per cent's. ler it ought to have been 90. After the bidding had been rejefted, .the 5 per cent's lose to 901. He trusted therefore, that he shauld stand excused to the House for not accepting cf the bidding 'in such circumstances. This proposi. lion didnot do credit, in his opinion, to the fair and honourable intercourse that should subsist between the Monied Interest and the Government of the Coun. try. He could not consider this transallion .as either liberal or Candid on the part of the bidders, hut be would not say whether it arose from an idea in that minds that the exigencies, of the Country Were such as would render it necessary to comply with such improvtdent terms. He Shad taken the liberty of stating, on a formet occasion that he should, as a preliminary step, propose that the sum of one Million should he raised by Treasury Bills in the'event of the bidding for the Loan not being such as could be acceded to. He'was justified by the re. suit of the bidding in the precaution he had taken. He trusted that the House would agree with him, 'twit was his duty to .guard the Public against a bargain that would have been so improvident. He concluded with Moving, that the Report of the Irish Treasury pills Bill be brought up. Mr, JoittssTotto Complimented the Right Hon. Gentleman for the precaution he had shewn upon this occasion, and hoped this would be a lesson on future occasions not to attempt Loans in Ireland, but to ascertain the whole•amount necessary to be raised by way of Loan, and ati raise i t in England. Mr. CORRY observed, that he h a d l ast year in reply to a Ri g h t Hon. Gentlem an .(M r, F osTER ), in answer to some observations of his upon the ad vantage of snaking the Loan 3 in whatever surp l us o f Stook was created in Ireland, beyond 'wh at rite. Ireland, stated that could absorb, : most finds its way Money Market of th a t C ou ntry to the English , Market, The difference theref or e b etween ma ki ng the Loan in England or iO iraindA was merely this,- that the Interest mist, though paid in Ireland, be transmitted to the Stockholder in England. If the Loan was raised by English Capital, which, as he had' r4bserved, must always be the case when the Stock created in Ireland was greater than could be absorbed by the Surplus Money in Ireland, In that case the interest, whether paid in England or in Ireland, would equally find its way to this Country : and 'the balance with regard to money between the two Countries, must remain the same in either case. It was not therefore of that importance to raise the Loans in Ireland for the purpose of keeping money at home, that had been supposed, But the Hon. Gen tleman now 'said he hoped this would be a lesson against attempting to raise Loaf's in Ireland, But 'it the wealth of Ireland should increase, as there was every ptobability that it would—if the money in that Country. that might be dedicated to the Hpurchase of stock, should increase, it was Et that the stock should be created there, in order that the Irish stock-holder 'should have his money p a id at home. He hoped therefore that the Hon. Gentle. man and the House would not conclude that it was unfitting that from time to time Loans ShOuld be contracted for in Ireland, because it would probably be his duty from time to time to propose similar attempts, even though it should,be unsuccessful, The. Report was then brought up, and the Bill ordered, to be engrossed. Mr. BAxHAm presented, a Petition from the West India Planters, Stating the hardships of their situa. don, and the losses they had sustained, and praying the House to take their case into consideration. The Petition was ordered to lie an the Table, an d Mr. Bisitt,m4 gave notice th a t, he should submit to ,the House a motion upon the subjell on Tuesday •next. The Order df the Day was then read for the fur. ther consideration of the Report of the Cotton Weavers' Bill. After a few words from the CrAA. Cr LLCM of the ExcHEQuEa and r 1 STANLEY, it was put off till Tuesday. The House then went into a Committee on the Property Bill : , In the Clause imposing a duty of 9i. in the pound on rent paid by the Tenant for Land.— , Mr. PITT rime to call the attention of the Committee to this subjea ; he was of opinion tha; 4 'more fair and just criterion might be found 0141 1 / 4 that in the rent paid by the Tenant, btiqr.u4. he did not think that any proportio n found e d upon rent a l one , without taking in other considerations, could he considered as a fair pro. portion. r lt knight very frequently kippen that two persons who might in priint of fatt pay the sail .j sum of money for their Farm, might be taxed in a very different degree. For instance, if a man p i ta 1001. a year for a farm, and toot:a year more to Tythes and Poor. Rates, he would according to chi' Bill only pay the Tax upon tool. a year. Another than might occupy an. adjoining farm, but which from being free :from Poor-Rates and Tythes, was ler t o him at the rent of, cool. a year, in which case h: would pay the Tax upon cool. so that it might bap pen, that two pers4ns occupying farms of equal es• tent, of equal value, and paying in fad the same money for them, would be charged very differently by this Tax, because the one would pay jot twice as much: as the whew. The rent therefore appeared to him a v e ry u n j us t' an d impeded crite. rion, because there were other considerations be- sides rent, from which the value of a farm was rta be collefted, and 'from which the income of the te nant was to'be ascertained. The tythes and poor rates were very important considerations, and there' fore he should propose, that in addition to the rent, the tythes and poor.rates should be joined t `' the general aggregate, and that upon, the income of the tenant - over and above these, the tax s hould attach. If that proposition was adopted, instead ~ of 9a . in the pound, the Tax might be made Ir! '- which would not amount to more in the aggregat e produce of the TaX, and at the same time it w.0a141 operatemuch more equally. He admitted, that it was impossible to endeavour to attain perfea qu a ; lity in a mea s u r e o f t hi s kind. • Jr hid been fou N necessary to adopt t hi s p r i nc ipl e in the Tax upon is Income,- not in the Original Bill, but in one tha t was afterwards brought in to amend it and he , could not c o nceive, why the Oc c upie rs of 14 0 " should or no w be taxed according. to the same ful a. ;: which, in the case of the Income Tax, it had be en . found necessary upon experience to adopt. Another ,'. advantage that would result 'from the adoption of this proposal would be this, that i t would p ut an Oil to an apparent inequality between two.mrts of 1 0 United Kingdom." In England, the Tax was o.a Pound on the Rent, and in Scotland 6d. This was not meant a boon to Scotland, but was founded upon 3 calcOlation that the profit of the Tenant in Etig)3o l was iths of the rent, while in Scotland it was but }, but if the Tax was made equal upon the profit of the Tenant, this apparent inequality would be done away. He therefore hoped that there would be 1 14 objection to adopting the suggestion he had thro' out, particularly .as it did not depend upon li opinion, but had been adopted by the wisdonl Parliament on a fornier occasion. The ATTORNEY GENER 44 said, it was utd terly impossible to arrive at pure and perfeft ty in a measure of this magnitude, let them otfice" upon what principle they would. The criterion recommended by his Right' Honourable Frien d ,' certainly came, as every, thing did ,, with verY great weight from him, but though it bad heel adopted under the Income Tax . , still he 110 0 " much of its efficacy, because under it, many per' sons paid lesi under the Income Tax than IlleY did under the Assessed Taxes, which was impossi bli if they had been fairly assessed, because no In s !' under the Assessed Tax Bill was bound to pay M ore than one tenth of his Income. It appeared to biol . . that his Right Hon. Friend had fallen into, a tile!" take respeding the means of ascertaining annual o' lue ; it appeared to him that the- rent paid by the tenant was the fairest way of ascertaining it, cm' tainly not with precision in each individual ce se ' but upon the general 'average. But he had onr °r ' tunities of knowing when he had been in the cowl , try, that the mode of estimating it' under the I"; come Tax was such as afforded an opening•to great evasion of the Tax. Another great objedion l d had to the proposition of his Right HOP. was, that it would encumber the Bill with so tna"Y provisions and regulations, because it would be cessary to make 4 difrerent one almost fur eoc"' Farm. Mr, PITT said, he perfedly understood W l l was meant by annual value, bar th e mo d e adoOr!' . , in this Bill was a very good one of ascertaining i t ": annual value paid to 'the la n dlo r d, h ut it was " ) I no means a good spode of ascertaining the :10 004 value or 'profit derived by the tenant. In 111 while they were ptoposing to make he Tax equ'y 'they were .upon the face of it malting it. unerl o 3 . He was a little su r p r i se d to h ear his• Learned Frio cmuend, that the rent paid to the landlord 01 a fair cr iterion to judge of t he tenant ' s incom 6 " His Learned Friend certainly had not many "' portunities of going out of town, and When M. did had not much opportunity of obtaining knnw' ledge upon the value of, f arm s, except t hat "'h ich was occasionally ,conveyed to him idi 1 4 form i " . brief. • But if his Learned Friend would-devote 10 powers - of' his mind, which were certainly very ` great, to this subjed,. lie was sure that in less thou 24. hours, he would change hi s o pi n i on upon t he 011; jet), and admit that the profit of the Tettato could be better ascertained by taking into .eonsideration 0 11 only the rent but the other outgoings of the tenan t ' than by the r en t a l on e. Th e p ro p os i t i on he ha made was not founded upon any f a n c y of his ow "' burupon a measure .adopted by Parliament aria, sonic experience upon the subjeft. He had him,srlb from want of knowledge upon the, subject when M introduced the Income Tax,' proposetfa csiterion• lll ,, most as impeded as the one in the 'present Bill, b"`. - he had profited by the information of those w" were better informed than he was. There was 0116 ' thing which he particularly deprecated, which wau r that when a n y p erson o bj e ct e d to the inequality ° this Tax, to sa y t h at i t was i mposs ibl e to nbraiii equality, an d t h ere f ore i n a ki n d o f d espa i r , the/ not only would not endeavour to attain, but e" n i: for the sake of • consistency, created a kind artificial inequality. • But surely when the alte?n 3 ", rive was offered between error and corredion, t 110!.: could not be much difficulty in making the .choi e 7 -: . He therefore p e r s i ste d i n t h e p ropos i t i o n he ba made. • ; - Mr. 111143 T concurred with the ATTOI:VEY GX, I4-- fR t. 111)04 this poi Air and S a id the Rent wan the fairrst crttertoo::4 itir• B ARGANI . sisid, that great evamon had t , o% nra tiled under the Anded Income Tax, and •he' knew Cotntnis,,ioner, that maw persons had paid tnuch less to." - „: the}' ought to do, • • jtlr DENT supported the Proposition o f Mr. PIDT• thf-.1 Mr. IPINDI-14.11 s. A iti, it was unnecessary to siPP °r ( t i t oi : ',.: Proposition which had tx_tii wade fly that Hon,: • ` i tt:ntan necitusc none °law:arguments het, had utgrd . n 3c ,„;, l4 , ‘clved any answer, he however bet%ect to say, that hc c v" - rictvly cent:Lured in opinion With him ~f3 •n_