The Sun. — London, England, 1803-07-06 00:00:00

stituttonal principles of the Militia system. deprecated every thing that tended to depress the •spirits of the Country—its resources, its energies, and spirit, were more than equal to conterd with Any tiling the enemy could possibly bring against ; these points his Lordship enforced in strong d in t animated language. The relevant stoding orders being read, and the neeess3ry order made thereon by their Lord. ships, do remaining stagi's of the Scots additional' Borer Bill were gone, through and the Bill passed. The House then, after disposing of some private business, adjourned till to.morrow. jIO(I,FE OF C11111404N'S) TUESDAY, JULY 5. Tiit Royal Assent was wi:11 by Commission to the Addi. tiorul Excise Bill, and several titivate Bills. Tile Bill ;'or the Augmentation of Queen Anne's Bounty WAS read a first rim; and ottlero to be read a• second Wile to-morrow. The Order of the Day being read for going into a Corn tr.te on Foote's Divorce Bill, Counsel was called to the 13 . ind evidence heard in iupport of . the Bill ; after which it . ./t.: through the Comniirite. Gfneral GIISC3YNE gave notice, that be should on M,,,lday ive for. a Committee to inquire into the S;nte o[ Trade of this Coutltry, particularly the 1.1,1 , , Ott - ! . ;. , te, and also for ascertaining the best mode raft ril,eving- any temptuary embarrassment that . triglit The reason he gave so long a notice was, to give an opportunity to Mittister, it they thought proper, to propose some measure upon the suhjett. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that Government would bring forward a pro. position upon this - subjea as"soon as it was proper, and he hoped no Gentleman would bring it forward too soon. General GAS COY NE said., that if Ministers would pledge themselves to bringfor ward some pr o . position upon the subjea, he would withdraw his 11011 e. 77;;e . CHANCSLLOR of the EXCIIEQUER ia;0 1 that Ministers would be governed in their conduit by, the atate of the Country ; but he trusted there would be nu occasion to bring such a measure forward. General GAscoyrie then said, his notice stood fur Monday. Mr. Rost?, brought up the Poor Relief Bill, which was read a first time. On the Moti , ,n for bringing up the Report of the East Iturt.4 1) Eck bill, Sir WILL/An TULTENErobjefted to it ; he disapproved of many of the provisions of the Bill, which.he said had been brought in in a clandestine manner, and contrary to the Corms of the House. Sir F. llAill NG defended the Bill ; he said it was not brought in to promote the interest of in. but with a view of producing great pub. lie advantage; it would benefit the Ptiblic Revenue; it would affild ptotehion to trade, and would pre vent plunder ; and as' a proof of the merits cf the Bill there 4 .4 aA but one solitary 'Petition against from a single individual. Mr. C ALC Rfl PT sai4.l, if this Bill was calcu.' lated to benefit the Pol , lc Revenue, he would be the last man to oppose if. 11 these Diicks were intended for general benefit, why were they not io a stinati‘in io which all East India ships could de, rive benefit from iln-tn ? It was invossilile that litany of the large Hist indiamen cull get into these Docks ivithßut breaking hulk, and getting rid of a put of their carr. He was sure iliac there were situations within the Port of London in which I) icks might have been made to accommodate all the East 1,16 Shipping. Sir T. 114 iq - C: tiLF f!tereci at length into the grounds upon which the Bill had been brought for. ward, anti contented, that if the East India Cunt. pally, if all the perAins concerned in this Trade, it all the persons who were best acquainted with the subjeft, were satisfied.with the benefits that would result from this Rill, he hoped it would outweigh . the opposition of the two Hon. Members who had opposed it, however reputable they might he. , A short conversation ensued between Mr. AT. KlNti, Mr. DENT, and Mr. VANSITTOT. The Report was t h en b roug h t up, atter which Mr. Qi.‘i.citisET proposed un Amendosent„ the ob jed of which was, that Indiamen that were obliged to break bulk in Long-Reach should not he obliged to pay the Dot k Dues on the whole of their T, n. riage. This Amendment was opposed by Sir F. BARING anti Sir T. METCALF. The Gallery was cleared for a Division, but we uoderstand it was rejeard WitlifitH a Divisior. While strangers were excluded, we understood that the CHANCELLOR of EXCHEQUER moved that the I louse should go into a Committee on the come Bill. When we were re-admitted, we fotind Mr. Alderman Comet on his legs opposing the Sekaitee's leaving the Chair. He said he had been instructed by his Constituents to oppose the Bi'l, and be should certainly oppose it, because he coesidered it 41i 13.101 t and partial in its operation. The LO D .IYOR tkaiti, he was disposed to pay great respea to the instrudions of his Constituents, but he must recollen that he was a Representative of the whole Country as well as of the City of Lon. don. Ile thought it would be right to know the provisions of the Bill and the nature of the modifi. cations that were to be proposed, before an opposi. tion. was made to the Bill.—He certainly should attend Most seditiously to the interests of his Con. stituents, and should in the Committee do all in his power to snake it as equal as possible in its opera. Sir 3(411N A.VbERSON said, the Howie did n u t yet know what were the proviAion* of the Bill, therefore he should vote for the S ritICEK Leavit% the Chair. Mr. BASTARD sit he was not one of those who thought Clot the Cutiqtry had better than the incotrK Tax be loid on, but he to to know to what extent land wa% to be taxed, before he give consent to the SPEAK WS leaving the Chair. The C ANCELLOR o i l the EXCHEQUER said, that e, en tf he gave on twfavoutoble AIW A e r to t h e Lion. Gentleman's question, it would no: instil . y him in posing the ER's le.tving the Chair, bv; mse it was open to any Gentleman to propose Binen,s, tinentk in tue Committee. Ili ars:ver to the 1-1.,)n. Gentleman's question Orr Provrirtor Land could nut be taxed more than 5 per Lent. for the land lie it.t to Ms tenant ; but if he united the characters of landlord and tenant, and kept his hind in his own hands; he would pay in both situations, viz. rs. in the pound as landlord, and 91 as tenant. In reply to what had fallen from the worthy Abler. man, he said, that when the Income Tax was brought forward,. he gave it his support, because he consi. tiered it as a wise measure, and he was far from wishing to possess any popularity from having propo. sed to repeal it, because he upon that occasion stated, that that measure, or some modification of it must be resorted to again at the commence. ment of a War. He never considered that it was impossible to soften that measure, but until he had looked into 'it with the best assistance he could pro cure, he was not aware of the means which might be adopted to render it palatable to the feelings of the People. The difference between the present Bill and _the Income TAX was not in the general principle, but in the mode of colleEling it, because he hoped the plan now proposed would prevent the necessity of disclosure. It was proposed to make a distinction between that species of property which was visible, such as Land and Money which was lent upon Interest, and that species of property which arose from Trade or Professions. With reprd to the latter, it was very necessary to avoid the necessity of disclosure as much as pos. sible, so as nor to give an opening to fraud. He flattered himself that having bestowed great atten. tion to. this subjeet, that a mode would be seggested by which the necessity of disclosure would, in a great degree, be prevented ; but this would be a matter of future consideration. Another advantage .attending this measure .was, that it would be more simple, anti less inconvenient in its operation than the Income Tax. These were some of the leading features of the measure. His wish was, that the House would permit. the -Amendments to be made pro forma, that theh the Bill should be printed ; all he asked was, that the measure should he fully and fairly examined. He by no means ,flattered himself that it 'was possible, in a measure of such magnitude and importance as 'the present, to render this Bill completely unobjeetion a hl e: Ire was afraid that even after he had had the benefit of the wisdom of that House, the measure would be attended with serious difficulties and oh. jecti o n s . Th e House, therefore, would not think of rendering the Bill perfect, but of rendering it as petted as possible. He did not believe that it was the wish of the Citizens of Lontion,that while the rest of the Community was called upon to contribute so largely, that they should not contribute their fair proportion : he was sure such could not be the wish of the Cif'' , of London, and lie trusted that the Worthy Alder Man would lend his assistance in the Committee to render this measure as tinob jeClionable, • and at the same time as efFeCtual as it was possible; because unless that Honour. able Member was prepared to suggest some other mode by which the Citizens of London and the trading part of the community in general could be called up 'n to bear their share in the general burthen, he would not, he was sure, give an unqualified positi on to this measure.—After the measures that had been adopted _and the large sums that had been raised, the House would not do their duty if they were to stop there, and not to call upon other classes of the community for their share of the contribu. titan, who were not in immediately affeded by the tne:mtres which had already been agreed to. Mr. BASTARD explained. Mr. GRZOOR said, he did not m ean to objeft to this measure-altogether, though he thought some parts of it were very objedionable, and particularly that the Tax upon Land was rs, ;1 4*, i n t h e roun d . which was larger than the Tax upon other species of property. The ATTOR Ey GRATER/IL replied, that l an d w as not taxed. at Is 9.1. in the pound, but the t a x went upon this principle, that land produced two incomes, one to the landlind and another to the tenant, and that was the principle upon which the tax was founded, which evidently was not a tax of ts. 91. upon land. Mr. Gkft3oll. explained; Si; ROBERT BUXTON observed,. that when we considered that we were fighting foe all that was dear to us, it behoved every man to set his shoulder to the burthen and bear it as well as he could. It would be their duty in the Committee to render the burthen as light as possible, Lord A. HAMILTON said a few words respell. ing the . Tax upon Land, in which we understood him to announce his intention of making some pro. position in the Committee respecting that Tax as it involved the consideration of the Ail of Union between England anti Scotland. Sir FRANCIS BARING thought an Income Tax, generally speaking, the only prop e r Tax to be imposed upon Commercial men, he objsCled, how. ever, to number of interrog a t or i es being pest to men of that description teseeetiati. their Income, which would only tend to distress and perplex them; as com nercial men in a large way of business could not tell exadly the amount of their income, although they might be enabled to forma tolerable guess. Dr. L AIVRENCE was inclined to think the last Inc o me Tax a preferable measure to the present ; with respeet to the latter, however, the objections would be better discussed in the Committee. Mr. KINNAIRD observed, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the ATTORNEY GENERAL) had taken great pains to prove that this was not a 'Lend-tax, The Right Hon. Gentleman (the CHAN. c ELLOX of the 14:eel-let/Vita) had said on a former occasion, that thi s was nut an I ncome Tax. He did not mean to res i st t h e Tax, but he tho ug h t t h e Right 11 , n. Gentleman was too squeamish with re. speil to names, and he must have a distinet av owa l from the Right Hots. Gentleman,. whether this was to he considered as a Tax 'upon distind species of Property, or as an ,Income, Tax. Mr. IV. SMITH said, unless there were solid objections to a 'Fax, no man ought certainly to af. tempt to Clog the wheels of GA ernment. He felt a disinclination to oppose a Tax at the present mo. meta, an.i if the principle of the present measure was to - be taken in the extreme aluttlitt, he could o o Oppose it at all. If the abstratt principle was to be takeo ff that every man ought to conirihtite his fair proportion, then every difficulty might be ut over. This however would not be in confor. 1 44 with the etm4titutioti..4i foxrits and usages of the, House ; he had a right to consider the moasort 101 it was then before the H o use. This Tax was neither more nor less than an Income Tax, and his sobjedion to it was, as was that of the greater part of he Count! y, that it was not an equal Tax upon Property, but an equal Tax' upon Income, which was an ulcer -11 Tax upon. Property. It had been said upon a former occasion, that the modifications and deduCtions rendered the Tax as far as possible equal. He did not , mean to say that it was possible to render any Tax equal, but they could not take two eval shares from two descriptions of property, in their nature unequal. Some Incomes were derived wholly from Industry, from exertions both bodily and mental, others were enjoyed without exertion, and generally those which were derived from great labour, were the most precarious ; if the latter class were multiplied into the other, the disproportion would be enormotp. - The great evil of this Tax was. the disclosure consequent upon it ; with resped to this sullied, however be would say but little, as he did not know the nature of the provisions in. tended to be proposed, but it must fall with pe. culiar hardship upon those most exposed to other hardships. This, added to the inequality of the Tax, rendered it unequal in the highest degree. He admitted that the money must be raised, but it behoved them to consider what were the best modes in which. that money could be raised so as to keep the People in good humour, Adam Smith had re. probated an Income Tax as always injurious to Commercial States, but had foretold that the time might arrive when the Free States of England and Holland might be forced to recur to Taxes similar. to those imposed under the arbitrary Government of Spain. Upon this subject he had looked into a book published in the beginning of the last century, in which he found amongst the Spanish Taxes, the Income Tax p but in Spain, instead of subjeding commercial men to the Petty Officers of Govern. merit, the Cities and Commercial Towns were al. lowed to assess themselves, and to charge each indi. victual with, his proportion. Ile believed that the commercial men of London would rather pay a d„ o . ble Tax than be subjected 'to a disclosure of their affsirs. He did not mean to say that the Opinions of Adam Smith ought to decide a question of thiS . nattare, but he could not find any opinion of any Author on the contrary side of the question. Lord IfiIifiKESBURY said, he should rather have chosen to defer the discussion on this subj:d to a future day, but he did not wish the speech of the lion. Gentleman (Mr. SMITH} to go forth un. answered. The Hon. - Gentleman had laid - dowo two principles, in which he pettedly agreed, that. no Tax could be pettedly equal, anti that it was their duty to make it as equal as possible. Of these principles, however, the Hon. Gentleman seemed afterwards to have lost sight. Though an locome Tax was alegllflh it was not more so than any. other Tax. The Hon. Gentleman hattapproved of, tine idea of raising a large parr . of the Supplies within the year ; but whatever might he his opinion, or the o:tinion of any one respelling that subject, with reference to the inequality or equality of a Tax, the effed was the same; as whether ten mil e lions or one were to be raise , ) within the year, the principle was the same. Upon this principle he , would ask, whether a Tax on Income could be con. sidered as beating heavier upon the Community, that, Taxes upon Consumptiem ? He knew that it had wisely been endeavoured to impose Taxes upon Con. sumption, but, that power was now much lisuited. In former times it had been found mote expedient to tax one or, two articles of consumption, than all tine objedions would there apply with more force than in the present case, where this Tax, which would be more properly denominated a Tax upon Produce, w-uld bear as equally as possible upon all classes. With resped to the distindion taken between Income derived from industry, and . Income. derived from Ancestors, or however acquired, en. jr)yed. without industry, he should only observe, that no proposition, containing such a distintlion, had ever been acknowledged by the Legisiatore, it, was inconsistent with the whole frame and systern of Government, nor had it been aded upon with re. sped to the Land Tax, Poors Rates, Sec. which had always been raised upon the produce of the Lied without considering the nature of the tenure. If the Tax upon Income was to be considered as fixed, it would be found that was it nearly equal ; but if the contrary, the projed went to impose an unequal Tax, and tended to change the relative situation of all orders of men in society., To the situations of persons enjoying Incomes without deriving them from Industry, duties were attached which render. ed a certain expenditure necessary, from width those who derived their Incomes immediately from their own industry, were exempt ; if they took from Commercial Men, they must take that which might otherwise go to increase their Capital,. whilst in the other case, they must take from Expenditure, Which, would hear harder. Taking them therefore as classes . , it would not be found that one description of pro. petty was mote severely pressed upon than another. If a large sum was to be raised within the year, it must necessarily fall heavy, but it would he faurid, that this mode of raising a part oft hose Supplies was not more unequal than any other. Mr. MILLIARD observed, that if the House would only refer to the Income Tax, of which this was a branch, it would be evident that great 'mien. tion was due to the subjed ; and he wished to call the attention of the House to that, for it would have a great duty to perform : the first was,' to make the Bill as produdive as possible, for that was most important in the present state of our af. fain, and in the contest in which we were en. gaged ; the next consideration was, to render'the Bill as little objedionable as possible, and that was likewise an object which would require great at ten. Lion in tine House. Much was to be avoided of that which was inserted in the Income Tax ; much of the odium which attended that Tax arose from the manner in which some of the Clauses were framed. Thi s Bill would throw new odium tin tine framers of it, anti cause almost a want of affedion, in the Peo, pie, unless care was taken of the manner of wording tine Clauses, and place 'those, whose patriotism in ; heed them to take the trouble of Commissioners to carry the Bill into effect, in a very disagreeable tuation. therefore wished these three points to be particularly attended to, and the House had a. great duty no perform In these particulars, \ . . Me. ERS K !NE viil, that we were now in a al- citation which must strike us, and which demanded our attention ; and he was as ready as any Member to admit that this measure, which might partly be called an Income Tax, ought not to be adopted tine less our situation called for it ; but he thought our situation did call fur this and many other measures to support the State ; for it appear ed to him that we are nom in a great crisis of our affairs ; but lie spoke it not with disinair - he spoke it only to induce caution and preps- ration. The Eilerny, as it seemed to him, had hut two modes by which they could hope to overpowet u i r P b es e r r a e d o et t l li e: l e e o y w uo rn e m e r e e i x :t i in'aleitil'riceleet exi g en c es more n u s m p e i inv ade r r e o d l u h , s a un than )'w ea tclotalunrtslb,l the other, a ao n rt. d h. e t l i rs :e l I t . e etiot • der, to Invade us; was invaded with effect, or invaded at all, it could and there b fo y re th i e f hotrss Country was • . only be, because we do not skew among,ourselvea spirit of unanimity in its defence. How wail ig o a possible to m a k e an i mpress i on on ten millions ot . • men, resolved to defend our Lida, and with opt. rior means of defence ? He could not suppose that a . Invasion was the way in which France meant 10 oppose England : he thought they would attaeje "1' in another way, to make us adrow a system SO O" pensive, an d cont i nue i t so longs to tire out the.' People, and, in the end, to produce discontent no .., der their burthens, to create divisions among 111 * and, finally, to accomplish that which nothing buter ; disunion among ourselves could efil!it. It was Oa duty to ourselves to frustrate that design, and IP counteraa it, which we could . .,only do by uniots and readiness to snake sacrifices worthy of the ohe':. jeft. It appeared to him, therefore, that the Rids '... ought to make sacrifices, and to consent to any Via .' vations of the enjoyment of their wealth, and to *; bear a large portion of the public burthens. It seemed to him, that the more scrupulous honour. able Members 'were (though lie believed their all to be equally desirous to preserve their Country) about a sew guineas, the more they cavilled against the . inequality of any Tax, the more they would satisfy.: the Enemy. It was for this reason that he wished-': the present measure to be supported, although it re. 1 . .. setnbled the late Income Bill, on which lie nevet,;, spoke. He considered this Bill . as a measure neceseao: sera , for our situation at thin moment ; not con iiering-it as-a permanent measure, but as the meats_ of supporting us in a crisis, he supported it those fuse . ; and the s nor e rea dy we were to s k ew Our oak- a niaoty, and to bury our little differences of opi•':, Man, the better ; indeed it was absolutely neceia sary the HOOst SIIISUId pursue that cootie, for ho 'v. a could the House exec& the People to come forward 1 with unanimity, if the House of Commons, iristeak.a .. of setting them die example, should be debating o , n a little points, of how nosily guineas one man (togas bit(e,:e,vreie(mr:;nact:\lvet,w.t)(siswimil,:4;lliiyi.rcshammo hisr than n . another. F I iei id U p onaiis to t h t e he a d o t o fe r et Ita in , and that in ' ste ni l l t u i d c de lt er tilv w ,st a ti s h ei a l. c (d'' q iinfe u i t r il e 'ea d 7c la w y hiol4 :i fi b l Labour, : diligence, Of exertion, he could only say, the present case it was a thing not worth attending to, when the objeel was that of providing for th. o . owpopuol would e r i e t e , 0 i f l u e r et safety of the Sottesas.his own income was by hiaottaf . t'... worth two years purchase, exertion, and it was a that ie .:' property which was 01.- ' end that printiri a : ' ' c l a t s case f i n t I 1 i which, tt.h Billwasa t rlP i a i n s areti l lc i i(l: s tnsibil: ce : 3 i rilrillYtin(y) ie:chta"a"si: hiu dr:. measure °l s h'n u ie7r : s ll!: :: ::l l . ... :' was less urgent ; and theretore, unless a . , ~,,. was found for this measure, he should consider ova, d o sawhne h aoyi j is e ut el lirddoe i a . t i ihoiye a str a cts ) o fr: jurinuarein:t , lk t rey:owti:ti i hi t aotilhssi a e ; o n .rl o loa o ni l l i sy j e e:. o t oi l i o rle n or s u : t accsr i all. fiir l i ogy 8 ,! although he knew and felt that he got _,,,,, bread not only by the . sweat ,of his - bra as income much of Was his p e i I, l'l , C n O a rn n c li h O ig : t but . with more toil than that both of bodily 0 0 " ; mentel exertion, for he said that this was n it the time for cavils fur .a few guineas; the Ons o . , signal the unanimity of the People of England 1 0 , the better. His objet was Peace. He wished avoid a War if possible. shirt being in a War l o a next object was to exert himself, in ordet to to the Enemy seek for Peace. 'flail was his rtinttOr , this occasion : - . " Beware of entering into a quarrel, " hut tame in, beat it so, " That thy Opposer may beware of thee." Mr. C. WESTERN thought that this Bill 01° 1 , to establish a system of inquisition, and the I . lo°' ... ought to pause before it adopted it. , ' ll' Sir T. M ETC :IL I.' approved of the rneastur e ,. founded on the principle of the Income Tax, er . assigned reasons why that measure was tint so oreti . ,„ duative as had been expetled, and had been stil ii 74 by the gre a t aut h or i t y who brought it forward. Pal ptuceeded to state the causes of the failure in th. produce of that Bill, when he was called to order bi Mr. W. SMITH who thought that any sliscOg sion on another Bill. was a wandering from the sub' ' jell now before the House. • Sir 7'. AIETC,III: said, it was a little extraor i ; '. dinary that the H on . G ent l eman, of all Member/ i ft , . the Hobe, should call him to order, far that W ai t _, Gentleman h a d hi mse lf ca ll e d t h e attent i on of w. House this ni g h t i ts t h e di scuss i on o f t hi s v ery Ine 4 it I.. d i a. sure, to the labours of a Spanish Author a ceot tu r ,;l ago, to those of Atlant Smith and David Ill' a ,' et. l ' The Hoo. Baronet then procee l / 4 1 .e.1 to Irate the colt iti a : why he apprehended the last Income Bid woi ...,, productive than it might have been by way of sh, c 4 .o„ ing what was to be dune for avoiding those deT c oa a in this. He thought that was by allowing pe o o ,e, in Employmeets, Professions, Trade, Ste. to i' vol a . their Income front average, instead of making!' ipo sT swear to the amount of tie last-year. The orov" o f ea in favour of Land-owners also were among de ,; Causes of the inefficiency of that Bill. If these ril feels wer e avo id e d, and this Bill made free 01 , 11 : f it :'. and some ot h er d e f e et s , he had but little iinin,itlii:, would prod uce as notc h as the last did, elthe o ie took only a twentieth instead of a tenth.' ‘ 11 ' inA The question was then put arid carried avig h° ,: ' . ! A division, and the Sl' EAK V It left the Chair. The House in .1 Committee upon the Bills • ka I R o s l 1 Tht CHANCELLOR if the EXC ii EQ. t; ~,,r i rtl he (mated there W. 15 no objettion to his de' l, ,osco 1 in the amend in e n i s to t he Bill now, with a dc‘.. .:,