The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-04 00:00:00

to the endowment of what he called religious error ; hut he wool I ask the Right lion. Baronet who was to he the judge of what was religious truth? Was that House to go into Committee, to discover what was and what was not religious truth ?—(Laughter.) But the Treasury had no religious persuasion at all, and the question, after all, was not whethsr there should be a Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland, but whether they should be bad or gosd—literate or illiterate—clergymen or de 72mgogin s. But where was the sum to support these Clergymen to come from ? lie could not conceal from hitu,slf that the resolution of the Right Hon. Baronet op posite would ultimately lead to the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church ; and he was not prepared to take so large a sum from taxes, which were principally upon the English people. But were there no other funds from which the money could be taken? He would put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Ec elt-siastir al Commissicaers, why were acting under the Church Temporalities Act, had not had a great deal more money in their hand than they well knew what to do with ? He very much regretted the Hon. Member for Sheffield h a d not , on that occasion, brought forward his motion for abolishing the Established Church in Ire land, because he was convinced, until they put an end to that Establishment, the question relating to Irish griev ances would not be set at rest. When he first entered th e present Parliament, he heard the Hon. Member for East Kent express his delight at the Right Hon. Baronet taking office, because the Right Hon. Baronet was op posed to the maintenance of Homanism in Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman's opinion must be somewhat altered now. He was afraid they would have to call in some of the Custom-house authorities, to discriminate between the views of the Right Hon. Baronet, and those of the Noble Lord who sat on the Opposition side of the House. He fully sympathised with the Right Hon. Baronet, and hoped he would not be deterred from his present princi ples by a" No Popery" cry. The time was gone by, when the H ouse was t o be deterred from doing its duty by a bigoted agitation.—(Cheers.) Mr. GREGORY confessed that he had heard some singular arguments in favour of this measure. In the first place the Right Hon. Gentleman who brought it forward had told them that it would tend to encourage Protestantism in Ireland. Why, if this were so, they had only to make an additional grant to the Pro testant Church in Ireland to encourage Remanisna. While the Right Hon. Gentleman was speaking, he stated that it was in accordance with the wishes of the Roman Catholic prelates that he introduced this mea sure. He (Mr. Gregory) however heard it perpetually stated that this measure was decidedly against the wishes of the Roman Catholic clergy, but that they were forced to it by the laity. He was not of opiruan that the clergy had lost their influence su far over the laity. For a long time he could not understand how this measure was to be brought forward. When the subject was on a former occasion introduced by his Friend the Noble Member fur North Lancashire, it was objected to his measure by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) that he was unwilling to adopt any course that would connect the State with any Dissenting Establishment. It was said that this was a question whether the Roman Catho• lie clergy should be educated or not. He never would be an advocate for ignorance, but he would object to the course of education pursued at the College of Maynooth. He would ask, had there emanated from that institution within the last twenty years one single constellation in the literary world? He would contend against the course of education proceed , d with there, and also would vote against the grant. Had the Right Hon. Baronet come to the House and said, Do away with the College of Maynooth, and institute colleges through out Irelar7d, and let there be no exclusive religious edu cation, then he (Mr. Gregory) would support those colleges. M a y noot h had brought up the priest hood' in a manner that had rendered them a repulsive body. It did not raise them to a position that would do justice to their ardour and zeel. It made them unwilling to enter into society. He hoped he had not said anything that was in any way calculated to offend the feelings of those who were op posed in religious opinion to himself, if he had, he hoped that they would not attribute it to intention on his part. If an exclusive religious education was adopted, and if this establishment was disconnected with the State, they would find they Roman Catholic priests loyal and or derly, not the leaders in agitation, but exercising that influence, which should be used not to sever, but to rivet those chains with which nature had bound down their consciences. Lord F. EGERTON said that he was deeply sensible of the fact, that his vote this night would be at variance with the views and opinions of those who supported him —of those, the representing of whom he always considered the greatest honour he could obtain. It was, therefore, with regret that he could, with reference to any subject, express a difference of opinion from his supporters. He on that account felt it incumbent upon him not to keep silent altogether, though he was not anxious to interfere with the House on a subject that was nearly exhausted. He would not enter into the state of the establishment of Maynooth, but it was clear, that whatever contracts were made consequent on the arrangements of 1795, it was evident, he would say, that no such contracts would bind them at the present day. He was of opinion, that the other course which was suggested by his Right Hon. Friend who had just sat down—that of abolishing the grant altogether—would be, under the circumstances, an un reasonable one ; he thought that such a measure would be dangerous to the State ; it would be considered as an insult and an injury—it would be perilous to the Established Church, and an obstacle and a bar to any increase of Protestantism in Ireland. It had been ex plained, that the expense at the College of Maynooth was given per head, and it appeared to be three P o r i le ss t h an was allowed to a private soldier.— ‘ 11,11 , a, hear.) A pr i vate so ldi er got f rom the State 25 1 . 21 ) 4 student at Maynooth was allowed 23/., w hi c h was es s. He wo u ld take the occasion to sa y, an d h e was sure that the House would agree with him i n s t at i ng t h at . the lion. Member who had just sat down had not use d "my lang uage which could be hurtful to anybody, and that what he had said reflected great credit on him. He (Lord F. Egerton) had, on a former occasion, which was referred to by his Hon. Friend, the honour of moving for a larger grant to Maynooth, and he wished to say that, with referenee to his constituents, he had nothing te reproach himself with, as regarded consis tency. He would also say that, with reference to his religious feeling, which could hinder him from sup porting the course now suggested, he did not think that discussions on religious faith were fit for the atmosphere of that House. He hoped, however, that his religion would be only known by his practices. From what knowledge he had of Ire land, and the views which he entertained towards that country, he did not see anything that could deter him from exercising that liberality which was to-night pro- Pesed. He should have some difficulty in coming to the conclusion of granting 30,000/. to the Maynooth College, if his religious feelings were to be alone considered, but he did not see how they could interfere. He recollected that on his introduction of a measure of a like nature some time ago, it was received with great consideration by the House, and was not met by any uncontrollable principles ; even in the state of opinion in that day it was not considered an inexpedient measure. He con fessed that he thought the measure a reasonable one, and it would not be met by any objection from him. Ho could not alter his opinion as to the expediency of the measure which he on a former occasion proposed. Mr. WARD said that he merely rose to state, in as few words as possible, the rea-ons why he should press the vot e w hi c h h e s h ou ld make to-night. He should, also, express the heartfelt gratification with which he ha'l heard the principles laid down by the Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government. It should be pleasing to any man to see those principles stated to the House in such an irresistible manner. Whatever the Hon. Member for Oxford might say, though he stood there as the repre sentative of a Protestant constituency, he could not believe it could be the real and unaffected feeling of this country, when th e speec h of the Right Hon. Baronet came to be for ad deliberately discussed. The Noble Memb e er Dublin, considering the party which he re resent d made a s p eec h which did credit t o hi s taste, but he said he felt deep disappointment at the result of the experi ment tried i n 17 95. What better ground could he seek for that di sappo i ntment than the fact that he had a refused t o e d ucate the Roman Catholic clergy in proper manner ? He assigned salaries to the students of the Colleg e of Maynooth, which he would not assign to his butler or his cook. When such was the state of thin gs , w h at else could result than disappoint ment? If they treated them as good subjects, and as fellow Chri s ti ans, they would find different results. The Hon. Gentleman asked also why they should make a grant to the Catholic clergy, when they did nos allow such a thing to any other dissenting sect. Why should they not give it to them when they conise sated their property for their own purposes ?—(Hear.) 1 : 11 e Hon. G ent l eman (Mr. Ward) tn proceeded to Observ e that he never saw a nobler determination than that which was displayed b y t h e Ri ght Hon. Baronet at t:lrneenhdes for ad _ of - her Majesty's Govern men t, to ma k e his former conduct in refusing to increase the grant to that institution—(Hear, hear)-- and he could not see what inconsistency there was in it. th 'fh© principles laid do wn f or the government of the who made this grant at t h e t i me of the union were iam as they w ere now; and when Mr. Pitt and Lord on _ wick, and u many other Hon. Members, had agreed at ; t 4 e t f i a upon this subject, they were overruled by the Power smallwhich but compact party in their thirst for that was the principal element by which they Were banded tom in that HOU s e.—(Hear, hear.) The Right H on bas proposed increase has made a liberal proposition in increase of this grant, and he (Mr. Ward) to followoppose it; but it would be his duty, in order a consistent course, to contend that this sum s hould eountry. not lelee paid out of the general taxation of the that this—m(e ear, hear.) Therefore he could not say i t s a sasure had his cordial support, for he thought mistak e to supply the grant from the fund from G htt IQ It leas prop ose d to take it. He did think that the evernment ought u pon the to pause before they imposed a tax the support Dissenters of this country or of Scotland for w hich they did a faith to which they did not belong, and e ey did not believe in ; and this part of the sub- Ili' would take care to introduce to the notice of the House again i,tredpri uecd. at t h e prop er ti me w h en the Bill should be But is th e mean t i me he would give the lUrheple and believed it would have the effect of creating much L l aamongst the Catholics of Ireland. that it was hi said he would have no hesitation in stating e would likes t antention . to oppose this proposition ; but the eatne tim reamne for doing so. And at b) such e that he did express his objection . ac _ n e neasure, he should also express the obli -7.o:eut f b or feltth under to the Right Honourable Ba pursued in e. extreme candour of the course he had intention to givin g a full and timely announcement of his 1 " 0 he (Mrprtlliose this measure ; and whatever objec 41easure, awh might have to the principle of the nleasure neither e nor any one else opposed to the Therecouldalsoas say they had been taken by surprise. the last n another Act of the Government, between . the present session, which afforded a clear indication of the h t intion of the Government not only in respt et to this, but to other measures of a like nature, but of more extended and of greater importance. He alluded to the Commission in reference to the Roman Catholic Bequest Bill, in which he found the names of the Roman Catholic prelates, not only placed iii juxta position with eminent divines of the Protestant Church, but a precedence allowed to the former over the latter, which gave to them, as it were, by anticipation, a position superier in rank and degree to Peers of the realm.—(Hear, hear.) But he did not complain of this ; on the contrary, he did think that the Right Ht n Baronet was entitled to claim cred , t for the candour and honesty of the course he had stated his intention to pursue in reference to the Roman Catholic Church. end by w hich a certain amount of derogation to the Estab4shed Church was certain to follow.— (Hear, hear.) He felt it would be out of place for him to quarrel with any increased grant proposed to he given for the education of Roman Catholic priests in future ; but he could not but regard this proposition, whatever the intentions of the Government might be, as a precursor of other measures for the ultimate endowment of the Roman Catholic Church, and to place it in a co ordinate position with the Established Church in Ireland —(lfear, hear.) It was be cause he could discover no resting-place for this proposed exten sion and liberality between a mere act of that nature, and such a result as he had stated be feared would follow, that he End, after much anxiety, been compelled, with great regret, to state he had come to the determination, as a part of his bounden duty, not only to the Established Church, but to the sincerity and consistency of his own opinions, to offer his decided opposition to this proposed grant.—(Hear) For a considerable time his judgment was in the balance, while he saw that the Right Hon. Baronet's proposed liberality to Maynooth was mixed up with a large scheme for a comprehensive system of aca demical education in Ireland ; but all doubt and uncertainty was removed from his mind when he heard the announcement that the increased grant to Maynooth was to be a separate and distinct proposition. He (Mr. Law) hoped it would not be supposed that he meant to impute any but the purest and most exalted motives to the Government in adopting this course ; neither did he feel that, though he differed from the Government upon this question, he should feel called upon to withdraw his general confidence from that Government which, for the last ten years, he had reposed in them—(Hear, hoar)—and, in return, he claimed only the same charitable construction for his motives that lie conceded to others ; and that, therefore, the sincerity of his views ought not to be questioned when he said he felt confidence in this, the best Government that this country ever possessed since the passing of the Reform Act.—(Ministerial cheers.) He did very much regret that the Right Honourable Baronet had not deemed it expedient to develop his scheme fur academical edu cation in Ireland. If he had done so, and made it a universal increase of general education for all creeds and classes of the community, instead of making May nooth College an exclusive seminary for the education of Roman Catholic priests, he would have deprived this measure of much of the mischief which he (Mr. Law) believed would attend it in its present shape. With re gard to the question of academical education, he begged of the Right Hon. Baronet, and the House, to recollect that there was at present Trinity College, at Dublin, in which Roman Catholics were freely admitted, and had open to them, if they chose to take advantage of it, all the honours of that University. But in the College of Maynooth there was now presented one of the grossest anomalies ever exhibi•ed in any establish ment instituted fel- such purposes. It was true that this was a boon which had been granted by the Govern ment of this country for the institution of Maynooth College, and it was established for the purpose of afford ing education to Roman Catholic priests, and thereby prevent them from resorting to foreign countries for such, and imbibin g with it revolutionary principles, or sentiments inimical to the Government of their own country.-- (Cries of ‘. Hear, hear," from the Mi nisterial benches.) He would not attempt to follow the arguments of the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford, but he was willing to admit the truth of the assertion, that in the year 1795, and at different periods since then, several Acts were passed for the endowment and main tenance of this establishment, but he begged to remind the House that these Acts invariably limited the period over which this grant was to extend to twenty years, which had long since expired, though of course subse quent enactments had amplified the time. However, if he could persuade himself that this was an honourable engagement which the Government ought to feel bound to fulfil, he would be the last to oppose it, but he did not feel that the Government were at all called upon either to extend the grant to Maynooth or to continue it. But there was a great difference between extending their grant and continuing it at a fixed sum. This, he was aware, would be met by the assertion that the fixed sum was not sufficient. He could not deny the fair spirit in which this proposition had been made; and he could not doubt the purity of the intention of those who had proposed it. If it was the determination of the House that the grant to Maynooth should continue, then he thought it was desirable that the annual discussion on this question should be discontinued. Feeling satisfied, however, that this permanent grant would involve the destruction of the fundamental article of the Union, and at no distant period that it would destroy that portion of the united Irish and English Church in Ireland, he should feel it his duty, as they were not to be permitted to make the annual grunt without being told that they conceded the principle of a permanent obligation, he for one should oppose the measure, the effect of which was—first to increase the grant, to render it per petual and national by Act of Parliament-, and through that grant and through that admission of principle, ulti mately to destroy the united English and Irish Church.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BELLEW thought that the majority of the ob servations of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down were quite irrelevant to the subject under discussion. They had heard from the Hon. Member for Oxford, who might be considered the Coryphseus of the party most opposed to this grant, and from the Hon. Member for lent, mu c h a b out contributing to a system o e f idolatry by giving the grant to Maynooth. He did not thi n k that wary would be found to carry out t t h o e their s o f n u 11 measure, x e t a e s n o t r the d neither principles the of f f t o h r o o s e e o v c f li t o ho o i r rogs ppd nor the charity of their sentiments made up for their numbers. What did he see lately in a Dublin paper ? He would rea d an extract to the House—" The policy of Sir Robert Peel is to declare war against Jesus Christ. That the devil entered into his policy was as manifest as if the inspired historians recorded the fact." —(Laughter.) There was a petition presented that night from Trinity College, which he thought might be better employed. After stating in that petition that they heard with regret of the measures about to be adopted by the Government, they said that it was unwise to endow the Catholic religion, which was opposed to revealed truth. Let them act on that principle, and persecution would be the result.—(Hear, hear.) Toleration would be but a matter of degree. The Inquisition, the Dragonades of Louis XIV., and the pena I statutes of William and Anne would be justified.—(Hear, hear.) Why, lately, when the Dissenters' Chapel Bill was before Parliament, a prelate of the Protestant Church opposed it, because Unitarianism was opposed to the land. And was there so much uniformity in that House to justify any of them in saying what was and what was rot right in religious matters ? There were members of the Established Church who were divided between Calvinism and Catho licity. There were members of the Calvinistic Church, who were divided between Calvinism and Armenianism. There was the Church of Scotland, divided not only in discipline but in doctrine, he believed. And why should it not be so? It was the great boast of the Protestant churches that the Bible, and the Bible alone, was their reli• gion. But it was hard that the gentlemen who opposed this measure, who claimed the principle of a free interpreta tion, should also claim the advantage of authority by establishing what was right and wrung, and what doc trines were alone worthy of consideration of the State. The time had gone by when such a principle could be acted upon. They got Canada in 1774, and there the Catholic religion was endowed. When by their arms they had extended their colonies, Spanish Trinidad and Dutch Demerara were equally welcome, and the mainte nance of the Catholic religion was extended to the colo nies. There was not one among the forty-one colonies which they possessed, in which the Catholic religion was not supported by this country. In Newfoundland the Catholics shared in the endowment of the State, in a very small and inadequate degree, indeed, but still it was endowed. Then, at home, they supported the chaplain of th e Irish military regiments, the chaplains of the gaols were supported and those who officiated in workhouses, and that was a stronger case, because the payment was in proportion to the work done, and the Catholic chaplains having, of course, more to do, were paid more than the Protestant chaplains. If those things were done when bigotry was strong and robust, how absurd to object to it at the present time. They had about 200 or 300 clergi men connected with their mili tary regiments in Ireland, and in their colonies, and in their workhouses, who had received money for the dis charge of their duties. Why, then, should they object to the payment of 30,0001. for their education in Maynooth? The original endowment of that College was the re sult of a cold policy. At the time the College was endowed there was a great dread of what were called French principles, and being afraid that if those who were intended for the Roman Catholic Church would be inoculated with those principles if they were educated abroad, the College of Maynooth was en dowed, but in the most miserable spirit, as the wretched grant which was given proved.—(Hear, hear.) The number of persons at present maintained at May nooth was 250, and there were about 200 educated else where in Ireland and abroad. Now, it was clear that in a question like the present the State should be every thing or nothing. There must be a great national ob ject in view, or this subject would not be considered at all. He would not enter into theological details, because he considered that House was a most improper place to enter into a discussion of theology; but he would refer the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, and the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford, and all others who thought that something exceedingly bad was taught at Maynooth, to the evidence given before the Commission of 1825 by the Professor of Moral and Dog matic Theology. If those Hon. Gentlemen read his evidence, they would find that there was nothing taught at Maynooth which was not taught throughout the whole Catholic world ; that the dogmas of Maynooth were the dogmas of the Sorbonne, and were the same which were taught to the 120,000,000 of human beings who composed the Catholic world. There seemed to be a very erroneous impression also in favour of the Catho lic priests of Ireland in a time gone by. He would read to the House the opinion of that sagacious man, Edmund Burke, upon that point. That great man said that those persons who were intended for the Roman Catholic priesthood, after scraping up such scanty education in Ireland as the penal •laws permitted them to obtain, they went to the continent, and, after acquiring a little theology, they came back, without any solid knowledge, and ill-disposed towards this country. The same eminent person, in reference to an exclusive establishment for the clergy, to which objections had I been urged that night, said that, in providing education for any body of men, they ought seriously to consider the particular functions they were intended to discharge; that the authorities of the Roman Catholic religion, and the celibacy required of its priesthood, rendered it undesirable that they should be educated in common with others intended for worldly occupations. He (Mr. Bellew) did not think it would be right of him to sit down without expressing his gratitude to the Right Fee. Baronet for the manner in which he had brought it forward, and next to the measure itself, for the language he used.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman brought it forward in a liberal and confiding spirit, and he believed and trusted it would be received in Ireland in :e similar spirit. The Right Honourable Baronet had i:not used a single expression to detract from the grace and favour of the measure. He hoped that as the Right Hon. Barcnet had been the means of carrying Catholic Emancipation, it was yet re served for him to link together the two countries in the bond of mutual friendship. Ile saw many occurrences taking place which led him to hope that though unfortu nately there, was at present in Ireland considerable agi tation, still there was every day a better feeling spring ing up there by which the education board, the pro mised measure of academical education, and this Bill showed the Right Hon. Baronet was determined to con ciliate the Irish Catholics, and no party feelings would prevert him from expressing his gratitude to the Right Hon. Gentleman, and he would further say, and he wished he only leave utterance to the feelings of the Roman Catholic people of Ireland, when he said that such measures had their right good wisher.—(Cheers.) Lord SANDON hoped the House would excuse him for saying a few words in consequence of the position he was placed in. He looked at this question as one of compact, and, as he had already stated, it should have his hearty support.—(Hear, hear.) That compact should be carried out in that large and liberal sense by which intercourse between the two countries should be guided. He agreed with his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Inglis) that there was nothing in the Act of Union which affected this grant one way or the other, but in the discussions which took place on the question in 1808, shortly after the union, in which the men who carrted the union were en gaged, the propriety of this grant was distinctly recog nised. Then there was the lapse of time, fifty years of unbroken continuance of this grant. If they had en dowed a college in Canada fifty years ago, would they withdraw that allowance now? They would not. Then why treat Ireland differently ? Next they should re member the circumstances under which the grant was made. England was then involved in a continental war, and nearly all the nations of Europe were leagued against her ; and in order to obtain the hearty co-operation of the Irish people, they promised to endow Maynooth.— (Hear, hear.) Ought they now, after fifty years, to violate that engagement. Succeeding Governments and Parliaments—Whig and Tory—had all agreed to this allowance, and why should a less liberal feeling now prevail ?—(Hear, hear.) With respect to his own feel ings, he owned he was influenced by other motives than those of a compact. He had always voted in favour of the claims of the Catholics—he had no conscientious scruples. They should not treat Ireland on different principles from the colonies. They passed Acts of Par liarnent making provision for Roman Catholic ministers in the colonies, and for chaplains of gaols and workhouses at home, and if they were now to act otherwise, they must pull to pieces the whole machinery of society. There were nearly 7,000,000 of Catholics in Ireland, and it was we who put them into the condition of suppliants. —(Hear, hear.) We seized upon the Church property in Ireland. and gave the people of that country no equi valent.—(Hear, hear.) Without any change in their religion, we took their property from them.—(Hear, hear.) These facts could not be overlooked. This was not a simple question of endowment ; it was one of retribution.—(Renewed cries of " Hear, hear.") Ile repeated, the property of the Roman Catholics in Ireland was extorted from them, and as England had made compensation to other countries, why not compen sate the Irish people? He admitted the claims of our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects to civil privileges, and we should endow them with the means of educating their clergy. Taking all these things into consideration he thought that any opposition to this measure would be worse than useless. Unless the House were prepared to go back through the whole course of fifty years, they must assent to the grant which the Right Honourable Baronet had proposed. If they would but look at the picture drawn by the Right Honourable Baronet they could not but assent, in his opinion, to the propo sition which had been laid before them. The main con sideration was, whether there should be a removal of the restrictions on the education of those who were to be the spiritual instructors of the members of the Roman Catholic church, and whether they should remain in a comparative want of the necessary elements of their utility, or whether they should be instructed in all the elements of general literature. He, for his part, did not think that there was any alternative between an entire disruption of the principles on which the Government of the country had been conducted and the acceding to the grant which the Right Hon. Baronet had proposed. . It affected no principle whether the grant proposed was 9,0001. or 20,0001., for the principle was the same, and his Right Hon. Friend was equally justified in proposing : the grant, which had for a series of years been made be fore he came into office, or a larger grant for the more perfect education of the Irish ecclesiastical members of the Church of Rome. This grant was simply an en largement of the usual grant, and it was no affection of the principle that the giant was enlarged, and in the present circumstances he saw no alternative between going back and acceding to the proposition which had been laid before the House. To go back was evidently impossible ; and, therefore, there was no other alterna tive than to accede to the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend. If they would refer to the case of Canada, it was evident that they must either withdraw from the population of that colony the means which they had granted for the religious education of the people, or carry out the same principle with regard to Ireland ; and he thought that the mere mention of that instance ought to be a sufficient warning to those who opposed this grant. And deeply as he regretted refusing to act with those who had been his coadjutors for many years, yet he could not, in the present case, hesitate to support the motion of his Right Hon. Friend. Mr. PLUMPTRE said that he had been lately deeply engaged in an anxious investigation of this subject, and ho was now fully convinced that the opinion which he had expressed on the first day of the session, that the announcement the Right Hon. Baronet had made at the end of the session would excite no ordinary sensa tion, and he now believed that that sensation would be increased both in extent and intensity, when the inten tions of the Right Hon. Baronet were made known throughout the country. He believed that he should re ceive ample credit for the assertion that any opposition to her Majesty's present Government was to him ex ceedingly painful, but of the measure which had been in troduced on this occasion he must express his most decided disapproval, for he must confess that it exceeded his most enlarged expectations—(Laughter)—and to which the objections of his Hon. Friend (Sir. R. Inglis) were, he thought, unanswerable ; but there were other consi derations which ought to be taken into account. He had, the other night, presented a petition from the Archdeacon of Buckingham and eighty clergy.— (Laughter.) Was this a class whose opinions and feel ings were unworthy of consideration ?—(Hear, hear.) They had objected most strenuously to this measure.— (Laughter.) He (Mr. Plumptre) did not think the t this was a class of individuals to be neglected; and he would ask her Majesty's Government whether the rejection of their claim to consideration would put the Govern ment, with respect to the country, into any better position than that in which they now stood? What was the language of the petitions presented to the House on this question ? They were strenuously op posed to this mea-ure. They said that a provision to the Church of Rome was a provision to propagate idola try. They pronounced the doctrines of the Church of Rome idolatry, and they knew that the displeasure of God was pronounced against idolatry. This was the opinion of the great majority of those who had flooded that House with their petitions. They had expressed a decided opinion upon the subject, and he (Mr. Plumptre) would say, that if they passed this measure they might expect the Divine judgment upon the country. The great majority of the Protestants of this country were influenced by this opinion, and he asked whether the House was right in sitting that night to insult the people —he should not, perhaps, say insult—but he would ask if the House would slight the recorded opinion of the people of England? Why should they measure as nought the entreaties, almost the alarm, of the people of England? He asked if the House would treat with disrespect the petitions of the large body of her Ma jesty's subjects? He (Mr. Plumptre) believed that the Roman Catholics themselves—for they had let their sen timents out—cared but little for this concession— they pressed but little for this boon which the Government was so very ready to accede to them. If they wished to pander to the whims and hu mours of the Roman Catholics, then let them pass this measure. Could they doubt that if this measure were passed they would not be urged to further concessions? He felt pained at being obliged to oppose her Majesty's Government, but he also felt bound in principle to do so. Lord J. RUSSELL said that no one would call into question the sincerity and strong religious feeling which actuated the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. He (Lord J. Russell) did not think that it would be wise or prudent, after the lapse of fifty years, to stop suddenly and declare against any further grant for the education of the Roman Catholic priesthood, but at the same time if they found that grant was mischievous to the community, if they found a significant reason for its discontinuance, if they found that instead of being educated for ministers of religion, the students of May nooth were brought up as conductors of rebellion, then it would be equally wise and politic of the House to withhold this grant. This would be a sufficient reason why the grant should not be continued to Maynooth. But if, on the other hand, it were admitted and affirmed by a majority of that House, that a grant of the sum of 9,0001. and no more ought to be allowed for the sub sistence of tha College of Maynooth, no religious scruples could, be alleged against the increase of that grant to a larger sum. He thought that all the appeals which had been made to the religious prejudices of this country were beside the question.—(Hear, hear.) If the Gentlemen who opposed the present proposition had opposed th e grant o f 9,000 1 ., be might be willing to admit their consistency. But it had been proved that the means of instruction were not sufficient—that there was not a sufficient provision for the decent comfort of the pupils—that the instructors were not adequately paid—then there was no room for the interference of religious principles against the vote. —(Hear, hear.) He could very well understand why re ligious scruples should interfere to prevent a Member of that House from agreeing to any vote whatever for Maynooth College; but no Member, who had consented to the vote in any shape, could allege religious scruples as a reason for denying increased comforts to the students or increased pay to the ill-paid professors.— (Hear, hear.) Those who had agreed to the previous THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, APRIL 4, 1845. votes of 9,0001. had no ground for pretending their re ligious scruples as an objection to an increase of 17,0001. The religious objection was as great to 9,0001. as 26,0001.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He thought it was almost impossible to discuss in that House the religious feeling which the Hon. Gentleman oppo site had said prevailed against the encouragement of the Roman Catholic religion as a system of idolatry. If the persons who entertained that feeling came forward to show that their own religious feelings would be in terfered with, these statements might have some weight. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Liver pool had truly said, that the great mijority of the people of Ireland adhered to the faith of the most ancient branch of the Christian Church, and that no other spiritual teachers but the priests of that branch could supply religious instruction to that people. — (Hear, hear.) He concurred with the Noble Lord and he believed that the improved instruction of the Roman Catholic priests would enable them to make the people as it had made them—better than they would otherwise have been.—(Hear.) He would not deny that he should prefer that the majority of the people of Ire land had adopted the principles of the Reformation. But he must take them as they were. They had not changed their faith, when the people of England did so. —(Hear.) They had preferred to sacrifice the property of their Church, and the property of its adherents— (Hear)—and, therefore, he agreed with the Noble Lord opposite, that the proposed measure was one of restitution, not of gratuity. He thought that the Right Hon. Baronet had shown in his speech good grounds for the increase ; and he was glad to infer from that speech that further concession was intended. He would, therefore, give his vote cordially for the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He would not now go into a discussion of the proposition given notice of by his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield. But he would say, that in the course of this discussion, strong and in controvertible arguments had been alduced in favour of an endowment fur the Catholic clergy in Ireland.— (Hear.) He would not then go into a discussion of the voluntary system; but he could not allow the debate to pass without saying that he thought the spiritual in structors of the Irish people ought to be paid by the State.—(Hear, hear.) He did not wish every one to be misled by what he stated. But he thought that there was nothing in the nature of the Government proposi tion of that night, which could afford a reason for opposing it to those who for twenty years had supported the grant of 9,0001. ; He concurred with the petitions which had been pre sented against the grant in thinking it was a step towards a further and more comprehensive measure ; but upon that very ground he supported tha proposition of the Government. He could not altogether refrain from re ferring to the opposition which had been given in past years to measures favourable to the rights and calculated to improve the condition of the people of Ireland. He deeply regretted that there was not even now existing that harmony, that good feeling, that concord between the people of England and the people of Ireland, which they all ought to desire. He regretted to see that when a popular leader entered a town in Ireland to propose a repeal of the union, whieh in the opinion of the majority of that House would be followed, at no distant period, by a separation of the two countries, he was attended by 30,000 or 40,000 people, and that loud acclamations fol lowed at his heels. In the last twenty years there had been too much disposition in this country to inveigh against the religion which the people of Ireland pro fessed and to upbraid them in coarse and contumelious terms. He did not think that men who came forward in 1825 and said they would never get up an agitation for the repeal of the Union, or seek a separation between the two countries, if the Catholic Emancipation Act were carried, would have failed to keep their word, if they had not had good cause for breaking it. These men would have stood to their engagements had all gone on right, and there would have no more been inquiry now into the cause of agitation in Ireland, than they would have been talking about agitation in Yorkshire or Middlesex. But he trusted the Government of the present day were about to abandon all former political conflicts, and about to enter upon a wiser and a more generous policy, which should hereafter lead to the benefit of the people of Ireland, and lead to a better feeling between the people of the two countries. Many of the Roman Catholics of Ireland were as distinguished for worth and humanity, as they were for talents and learning. No other part of the Christian Church pro duced men so famous for their piety, and so distin guished for their excellence of character. He said he hoped the people of Ireland would hereafter feel and unite with the people of England. They should feel that they were ready to do them justice—that they were not led by any narrow projects—that they were not led—he trusted the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last would not think that he meant to be personal—by a spirit of religious bigotry, to refuse that which was justice to them, and justice to their suffering country. He trusted they would look to this measure not as a final measure, but as one of a series of measures by which the British Parliament hoped to unite the two countries in enduring bonds.—(The Noble Lord resumed his seat, amidst loud cheers.) Colonel Sibthorp and Mr. Stewart Wortley rose together, to address the House, There were loud cries for Colonel Sibthorp; but the Hon. and Gallant Member gave way. Mr. S. WORTLEY was anxious to take an early op • portunity of addressing the House, and explaining the reasons which induced him to feel that it was his duty to support the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet. Although he could not admit that there was any literal contract for continuing or increasing this grant, he had a strong impression that there was a moral engagement upon this subject which persuaded him this institution was deserving the support of Parliament. They were answered first of all by the Hon. Member for Kent, that on conscientious grounds they should not make the grant; but though he (Mr. S. Wortley) felt the deepest, and professed the strongest, attachment to the Church to which he belonged, yet he did not believe it inconsistent with that attachment to concur in the pro posal made by the Right Hon. Baronet. The Ho nourable Member for Oxford used an argument which amounted to this—that, as far as the State is concerned, it should rather see the people of Ireland infidels or atheists, or left to their own choice in religious matters, than see them Roman Catholics. It was their business, however, to recognise the responsibilities that were imposed upon them by the State. He himself felt that responsibility sufficiently strong to compel him to support the proposals of the Right Hon. Baronet. Colonel SIBTHORP here rose to address the House, but, in consequence :of loud cries of " Sit down," and " Divide," was obliged to resume his seat. Mr. C. BRUCE, who was frequently interrupted by cries of " Divide," said he hoped they would not think it unreasonable in him to address the House at so late an hour, but as he had b een so f o rtunate as to catch the Speaker's eye, he co u ld not om it saying that he found with great regret th a t thi s mot i on w as ought forward and supported by those who, on former occasions, op posed the further increase of the grant. They were now bringing forward a motion which would be con sidered by many of their supporters, both in side and outside of that House, as a heavy blow to Protestantism in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It was with deep regret that he found himself compelled to come to a conclusion which would cause him to vote in opposition to the Government on this occasion. It ap peared to him that the Ministers of the Crown were not acting in accordance with those principles which should with their s position.--(Loud Protestantism, regulate th e i r con d uct as M i n i sters . lie could not regard the measure, as i t was b roug h t f orw ard, as in accordance po of i (L ou d cri e s and he could not see of " Divide , divide.") was Crown w as s till a P rotestant Crown, it as held on the condition how it was consi s t en t f or Mi n i sters of that Crown to pro pose a measu re h av i ng f or i ts o bj ec t the endowment of a priesthood who would ever feel hostility to the Protestant religion, and who would, so long as they were sincere, and he believed them to be sincere, seek not only to discourage but to subvert Protestantism. He was also compelled to say be could not think that the Right Hon. Baronet was at all justified in adopting this course, because he took an active part in a measure of a nature somewhat similar some tune ago, he meant the Catholic Relief Bill.—(Loud cries of " Divide, divide," and " Question," from all parts of the House.) In that latter' measure he (Mr. C. Bruce) took an active part, though . not then in Parliament, be wee h e was e al ways in favour of toleration.—(Renewed cries of " Divide.") But he did not think that the concessions in the Catholic Relief Bill at all called upon the House for such a measure as that at present proposed.—(Cries of " Question, question.") Therefore he would say that this proposition involved a v iolation of p rinei p le which aAt this late hour of the night ss on the time of the House. should u would ü b l d e guardednot further against. tres p —(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") But he would say he would gladly support any measure involving a system of general education for the whole population. Colonel SIBTHORP w ould not occupy the House for more than two or three m inutes. He hoped that in future the Speaker's eye than he bad been that evening. He had stages of the Bill he might be more fortunate in catching invariably opposed the gra nt to the College of Maynooth, with no unchristian feeling towards that College, but from self an unworthy member. --(Laughter.) Me ow had been a sense of duty to that religion of which he owned said about about the restitution of property, but how would the Noble Lord opposite like his family s of this country ?—(Laughter.) belonged to the Catholic to give up the Bedfo rd p ropert y , which ori g inall y He would not have been surprised if this measure had been brought forward by the Noble Lord opposite, but he was disgusted at its having been proposed by a Pro testant Minister. One educated at Oxford, too—some time the Member for Oxford, but he thanked Oxford that he was no longer so.—(Laughter.) To this measure of the Government he (Col. Sibthorp) should give in every stage his unqualified opposition. lle would not at that hour of the night discus s the me a sure, but he w ou l d re serve himself for a fut ure occesion. U p on ever y stage of it he would oppose this detestable measure —detestable in every light and in every shape.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. SHELL rose amidst loud cries of " divide, divide," and " adjourn, adjourn." He said that only one Irish man had addressed the House during the present dis cussion, and he thought he had a kind of title.—(Hear, was the pleasure hear, and cries of "g o on, " adjourn.") He felt at that hour of the night that it was too late to go on. — and `• but a d j oi if `adjourn.") .R He found it of the House, though he was in a sta te of health which made it difficult fo r him to g o on, h e would pro eciffi No, n to o, go " ‘ o ‘ n go at o th n' t: ' t hour, pro ceed.—(" Go on," " go on," and " adjourn," adjourn.") He certainly would yield to the injunctions of the majo rity,land would " go on."—(Cheers.) And when he said ho would go on, the House would remember that it was his fatality to be compelled to " go on " at such an hour. He gave his entire—his unqualified approbation to the measure proposed by the Right lion. Gentleman, and he thought that measure was, if possible, enhanced in value by the spirit with which it was pro pounded.—(Loud cheers.) He had no doubt that one object was uppermost with the Right Hon. Gentleman. —(Hear, hear.) As in the Dissenters' Bill he had but one object, so in this measure he had but one object— the interest of both countries.—(Cheers.) And he trusted that, as he would in return meet the thankfulness of the one, so in future tranquillity, 'e hen clamour passed away, he would meet with honourable appreciation from the other.—(Loud cheers.) He attached great value to the measure for many reasons—not only on account of the liberality of the largess con ferred, but also because it substituted a perma nent legislative endowment for an annual Par liamentary donation, and thus avoided what all concurred in considering was desirable to avoid—the periodical recurrence of theological disputation.—(Hear, hear.) This would give, to use an Irish phrase, " fixity of tenure to Maynooth," and he would state his opinion, as reference had been made to the ulterior measures that might be in contemplation by the Right Hon. Gentle man, at the hazard of occasioning dissertation and criticism in Ireland—that, though they might not attempt to take the Roman Catholic clergy under their care, they ought to take the Catholic worship under their protection.—(Cheers.) He thought that an honourable distinction, without any degradation to any party, between the Church and State could be effected —a relation in return for which they should expect, on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy, no ignominious complaisance.—(Hear, hear.) He was satisfied that the Roman Catholic clergy would reject any stipend periodically paid at the Castle, at the plea sure of the Government—(Hear, hear.); but there could be no objection raised against building Roman Catholic places of worship, and glebe houses for the Roman Ca tholic clergy, without requiring from them any condi tions for the favours conferred upon them, thus making them independent, giving them a true conservative interest—he used the word in its general etymology —in maintaining the institutions of the country, and they would reap the benefit of the result. — (Loud cheers.) Ile would not go into the history of the origin of the grant to Maynooth ; but every person knew that Edmund Burke, to whom his Honourable Friend behind him had alluded, was the man who suggested that Maynooth should be established.—(Hear. hear.) He saw that French prin ciples and French morals should not be amongst the imports of Ireland. He perceived that a French educa tion and a French fraternisation would be the con ductors between France, and the Gallo-Hibernian establishment in Ireland would not be for the benefit of the State.—(Cheers.) That was the origin of Maynooth, and the Right Hon. Baronet was only carrying out the principle of Edmund Burke. It was said that the mo dern Catholic priest was inferior to the old one ; but Farquhar, the Irish dramatist, who was well acquainted with his countrymen, drew a portrait of one, in which the peculiarity of the Irish priest was drawn. It should be recollected that the Irish priest was strug gling for Catholic emancipation against tithes, for mu nicipal reform, for the Registration Bill—for God's sake let them have the Registration Bill in the spirit in which this measure was enacted, if they wanted it to be final.—(Cheers.) Let them give an interest— an interest he would say to the Roman Catholic clergy, and a perfect reconcilement would take place.—(llear.) So much had been said about a contract, and its exist ence was demonstrated with so much clearness, that it was hardly necessary for him to say a word upon the subject.—(Hear.) The Learned Recorder for London had indeed denied it—but his Court was not a Court of equity, and though he spoke against the Ministers, he accompanied his observation with a recom mendation for mercy. But this was a measure which was not to be viewed in a small forensic, or scholastic spirit, but in a spirit of equity and justice. What was the objection to it? 9,0001. was already annually de voted to the purpose. The country had already under gone great change since this grant was made, and in considering the policy of the measure before the House they should recollect that a'greatpetamorphose had taken place, and that no country had, in so short a time, undergone so great a change, social, moral, and political. When Maynooth was founded there were only three millions of Catholics, now there were seven. When Maynooth was founded there were only two Catholics at the bar, now there had been a Catholic Chief Baron, a Catholic Master of the Rolls, and four Catholic Attorneys-General. When Maynooth was founded there was no Catholic member of any corpora tion, now Catholics had a preponderance in corporate bodies. When Maynooth was founded few Roman Ca tholics were educated, now the great bulk of the people were receiving education. And when men were taught to read, and write, and count, they would soon learn to think ; and if the whole body of the people were en the advance, ought the Catholic clergy to remain stationary? A great revolution was taking place, and with it the great Catholic Church must be carried on. Will this measure benefit you ? Yes, because it will benefit us ; for whatever benefits you confer upon us, you will reap the benefits of. An establishment would be founded where genius would be allured by legitimate remunera tion, and all those odious habits which parsimony caused at Maynooth, would be done away with. If they edu cated the priesthood in a proper manner, and placed in every district a gentleman in mind, as well as a scholar in education, whose disposition had undergone a process of refinement, they would do much for the country. The objects of this measure had been gone through, and its utility demonstrated. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Recorder for London had talked about the profanit) of educating laymen and clergymen in the same seminary. He differed from the Right lion. Gentleman. In every country on the continent the Roman Catholic clergy were educated in ecclesiastical seminaries quite distinct from the laity. Their ascetic habits—their habits of su bordination—their absence of all sensual indulgence, indispensable to the formation of the Catholic priest, could not be had in a mixed seminary of this sort. In Trinity College, Dublin, he was satisfied at least that four years out of the time of the course was not passed in a manner the best adapted as a preparation for the confessional. The priesthood of Ireland were now moral. This could not be denied. They were not only pure, but unsuspected. Some peo• ple said that Maynooth presented nothing but rusticity, where every individual brought his quota of contami• nation. That was a mistake. He did not wish to see the sons of the Catholic aristocracy entering the Church. The duties of the Irish priesthood were such, that men trained in habits of luxury would not be very fit to perform them; and besides, they should remember that some of the greatest ornaments of the Church were men humbly born. Nature, as well as fortune, conferred a nobility. Before the Reformation the mighty plebeians stood up, and in the presence of the Norman Conqueror, with the crozier turned aside the lance.—(Cheers.) Was not that a circumstance that redounded great credit to the Protestant Church, that men of the humblest birth might be raised to the bench of Bishops, and take a seat in the House of Lords—a Wolsey taking precedence of an Earl Marshal of England. With respect to the cost, there was great economy—great housewifery. They did not complain of the expense of the State prosecutions, nor of the expense of maintaining a great military force there or a large constabulary. They should educate a moral police, of which they would soon find the benefit. Something had been said about idolatry. It was inconsistent with their consciences to propagate an untruth, but was it inconsistent with their consciences to make an annual grant for the maintenance of Catholicity in the colonies?—(Hear.) 26,0001. in the estimation of those Gentlemen was a venial sin, but 9,0001. for Maynooth was a mortal sin.— (Laughter.) Such was the casuistry of Kent.—(Re newed laughter.) When they saw the Catholic religion subsisting as it had done since the establishment of Chris tianity, resuscitated in countries where it was supposed to be extinct,' traversing the whole world, immortal and immutable, it was not with feelings of resentment, but with feelings of love that he had listened to the speech of the Hon. Member for Kent. There was no reason for these attacks on the Catholics. He would not enter into any argument with those baneful allies of darkness, who with that horrid sophistication which rendered men the plague among their species, because theh, and t ene mies of human hope, the obliterators of light, the messengers of despair. The Roman Catholic Church had been represented as a failure couplet, but he would assert, for the honour of that Church, that its mighty influence had for ages been actively at work in the amelioration of manners, the exaltation of intellect, and the promotion of that refining principle which freed mankind from the debasing influence of this lower earth, and left them to follow the natural elevation of their higher nature. In this respect, at least, the Catholic Church had borne salutary fruit. Was there any man who dared to say that the condition of the country had not been improved by the exertions of the Roman Catholic priesthood? With these facts before them, ho did not think that any Government had the right to ground public legislation on the convictions for personal theology, and he believed that to act upon this prin ciple would be to degrade those lofty maxims of policy on which an empire like this ought to be governed. If they would look at the position in which the country was placed, they would find a sufficient answer to all the objections which had been urged in the consideration of this question, and so great did he deem the position of the Prime Minister of England, that he thought that all that was little and insignificant might well be disre garded, and nothing but what was great, noble, and large ought to enter into his contemplation. If they would but look at the British empire they would see an island contiguous to their own, in which they would find every principle developed which was ennobling to human nature—a country whose history was full of deeds of lofty heroism and determined principle. They would find Spencer, Burke, Grattan, and a host of others, whose names would live while the world endured. They would see a country filled with chivalrous men, whose heart beat with sympathies as deep, as generous, as active as their own. They would see a country rich in resources and teeming with fertility, and whose manifold advantages must prove of inestimable advantage to the whole empire. They would see such a spectacle as would elevate their ideas of all that was great an exalted, and the aspirations of which were worthy respect, if ever anything was worthy of consideration and respect. He would there assert that the policy of Government ought not to be directed by personal religious predilection. Let Eng land do justice to Ireland, and Ireland would have to appreciate the justice of England, and he trusted that the great Minister who had brought in this measure of kindness and conciliation might turn with a disdainful smile from those who professed to found all their appro bation on motives of mere political expediency. Let not the maxims ofGovernment be founded on the principles of a small philosophy, and he would advise the Right Hon. Baronet to fling the seals of office to the winds, rather than not proceed in the path of honour and justice to that hourne which was the consummation of his bright est hopes—(Loud cheering.) Mr. DUNCOMBE said that he should oppose this grant on three grounds—first, on its permanency ; se cond, on the sources from whence it was to be derived ; and third, the purposes to which it was to be applied. On the same principle that he had opposed church rates, should be vote against this grant. They first of all plundered the Irish Roman Catholics of their revenues, and then by way of reprisal they took it out, of' the pockets of the English people, and yet the Noble Lord called this restitution. When they looked to the sum of money which the people of England bad paid to the landholders of Ire land—when they looked to the millions of money paid to the tithe owners, he could not allow them further to put their hands into the pockets of the people of England —he could not consent to this vote. . Lord ARUNDEL expressed his gratitude as a Ca tholic of England for the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet. Mr. GROGAN opposed the measure of the Right [lon. Baronet. The Committee then divided, when the numbers were— 216 114 For the resolution... Against it Majority for Ministers - 102 The House then resumed. Captain PECIIELL moved for copies of several re ports relating to the late trial cruises of her Majesty's ships Queen, Caledonia, St. Vincent, Camperdown, Albion, Espiegle, Daring, Flying Fish, Mutine, Water witch, Pantaloon, Osprey, and Cruiser.—Agreed to. Mr. E. ELLICE moved for a Select Committee to in quire into the practical operation of the Acts 2 and 3 Vic., c. 42, 5 and 6 Vic., c. 67, and 7 and 8 Vic., c. 34, so far as the regulation of assessment in counties and burghs is concerned. Mr. HAWES said he hoped the Lord-Advocate would attend in his place to-morrow, as it was his intention to ask him a question with regard to the manner in which a clause, of an unusual description, was carried in the Scotch Consolidation Bill. The LORD-ADVOCATE intimated his intention of doing so. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the Bill relating to the Excise auction duties be read on Monday, when he would bring forward a mo tion for the repeal of those duties. The House then adjourned at twenty minutes to Two o'clock. RAILWAY BUSINESS IN PAR LIAMENT. WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2. The following Bills were referred to the Select Committee on Petitions for Private Bills: Epsom and Dorking Railway. Staines and Richmond Railway. NOTICES GIVEN AT THE PRIVATE BILL OFFICE. Erewash Valley Railway,—Second reading, Monday, ' April 7. Eastern Union and Norwich Railway (No.l ),—Committee on petition, postponed sine die. Glasgow, Barrhead, and Neilston Direct Railway,—Corn mittee on petition, postponed from Friday 4th till Wednes day, April 9. Kingstown and Bray Railway,—Committee on petition, postponed from Friday 4th till Monday, April 7. Shrewsbury and Grand Junction Railway,—Committee on petition, postponed from Friday 4th till Monday, April 7. Birmingham and Gloucester Railway ( Worcester Devia tion ),—Committee on Petition, Monday, April 14. Runcorn and Preston Brook Railway and Docks,—Com mittee on petition, postponed from Friday 4th till Monday, April 7. Gravesend and Rochester Railway,—Committee on peti tion, postponed from Friday 4th till Monday, April 7. Waterford and Limerick Railway,—Committee on petition, postponed from Friday 4th till Tuesday, April 8. Birmingham and Gloucester Railway (Wolverhampton Line),—Committee on petition, Monday, April 14. Birmingham and Gloucester (Gloucester Extension, Stoke Branch, and Midland Junction) Railway,—Committee on petition, Monday, April 14. Birmingham and Gloucester ( Worcester Branch and Chel tenham Extensions) Railway,—Committee on petition, Monday, April 14. Midland Railways Company (Birmingham and Gloucester and Bristol and Gloucester RailwaysPurchase),—Committee on petition, Monday, April 14. THE MURDER IN ST. GILES'S. INQUEST ON THE BODY. Mr. Wakley, the Coroner for Middlesex, having appointed ten:yesterday morning for the holding of the inquest on the body of the unfortunate woman, Mary Brothers, who was so inhumanly murdered in a brothel, in George-street, St. Giles's, on Monday night last, the jury summoned for the occasion met at the Angel Inn, High-street, near St. Giles's Church, and their names having been called over, Mr. WAKLEY, before administering the oath, inquired if any one were present who could identify the body ? The husband of the murdered woman was introduced, and to questions from the Coroner, said that he had seen the body, which was that of his wife, Mary Brothers. He had been married to her 15 years before, but after their separation she had gone by another name—that of Ann Tape. The jury (15 in number) were then sworn, and Mr. Rogers, tobacconist, of High-street, Finsbury, was chosen foreman. Mr. Misr" the Deputy- Coroner, asked Harvey, the beadle, if any one were present who had been with the woman at her death ?—The beadle answered in the affirmative. The CORONER then said that the jury had better go and see the body. None but jurymen could then be admitted; but if the gentlemen from the press desired it, they would be ad mitted afterwards. Haryey—l have not the key of the house. I asked for it, but it Was refused me. Inspector Rawley—l have got the key in my possession, and I am ready to accompany the gentlemen of the jury to the house in George-street. The Coroner and jury then left to see the body. After an absence of half an hour the Coroner and jurymen re-entered the inquest-room. Police-constable, William Willis, G 4 E, examined—l am employed at the George-street station-house, and while on duty there as gaoler on Monday night, the 31st March, a woman named Palmer came with police- con stable Allen and stated that a man had been stabbing a woman, at No. 11, George-street. I then was directed by my inspector to go to the house with them. I did so, and there procured a candle, and saw three or four women standing at the door of the room on the left side of the passage. I went into that room, and saw the deceased with her back against the tire-place, her head bent down ; and I heard a gurgling noise in her throat. She was bleed ing greatly from the left side of her neck, and there was much blood at her side. I raised her head, and saw a wound above her left shoulder, and a knife sticking in it. I desired constable Allen to pull it out, and he after wards went for the surgeon. Mr. Fitzgerald came in less than ten minutes, but the woman was quite dead. She did not speak or move from the time I first saw her, and the gurgling in her throat ceased in about four minutes. I then locked the door. I did not see any person in the house charged with having caused the death of the woman. There was another room adjoining that in which I saw the woman, and on a bed there I saw marks of blood. There was a window there with a saw in it. I saw marks of blood on the wainscoting, as if the blood had spurted there. Mr. MILLS--Have you got the knife? Witness—No, Sir; constable Allen has. Allen, the constable, produced the knife. It was a common sized black handled table• knife, sharpened to a point, and encrusted with blood. Mr. WAKLEY asked the witness why he had not himself taken the knife from the wound. It was better, in these cases, to limit the number of witnesses as much as possible. The constable said—l was engaged at the time assisting the woman. I have known the woman by sight, in the street, for about three years. I believe I saw her about half past eight o'clock on the night of the murder. Ido not know where she lived. There were three other women standing at the door of the room, one of whom had a candle in her hand. Mrs. Hall is the landlady of the house. The woman Palmer, who came to the station-house, is the servant, and, I believe, lives in the house. (The station-house is within a minute's walk of the house where the murder was committed.) Palmer came to the station-house about ten minutes to eleven o'clock. Mary Palmer, an old woman, was next examined. She stated that she was a widow, and lived at 13, Church-street, St. giles's. I used to sell fruit for my living, but latterly I have been employed to clean, and act in the capacity of a servant, at Mrs. Hall's, 11, George-street. Mr. Hall is the landlord ;he pays me my wages. I did not know the mur • dered woman by the name of Mary Brothers, but by the name of Mary 'tape. Tape is the name of a shoemaker with whom she had lived. Ido not know her age. I was never told it was forty-five. I saw her last alive about a quarter to eleven o'clock on the night of Monday last. She came to the parlour-door of the house and asked for a three penny room. A man was with her. I had never seen him before, and I do not know his name. I think I should know him again. I lit a candle and gave it to the woman. The man did not speak. He gave me the threepence. I did not see anything in his hand. I noticed his dress. He wore a velveteen coat, which came down to his knees, with pockets at the sides. It was of a very dark colour by the candlelight. He had a sealskin cap on his head, and wore light brown trousers. His coat was closely. buttoned. The woman said nothing more, and they went into the room together. I should think the man was about thirty years of age. He was very dark, with black hair, and small dark whiskers. I did not notice the colour of his eyes. He had a long pointed nose. Neither of them were drunk. I sat down on the stairs, and in about five minutes after heard the woman cry " Murder." I went to the door of the room, and she repeated the cry three times. I; knocked at the door, and asked what was the matter? I heard no scuffling or noise. The man made no answer. The door was bolted, and I could not get in. The room that they were in was the middle room, where the bed was. Mr. MILLS—Did you burst the door open ?—Yes. Mr. MlLLS—Which door was that?—The one that the blood was in. Mr. Musts—When you burst open the door what did you see ?—When I burst open the door the woman was sitting on the bed. Mr. Muss—What was the man doing ?—He was standing over her in this way—(The witness held up her hand clenched behind her own neck)—and I thought he was hit ting her. Mr. MlLLs—Was his side or back towards you ?—His side was towards me, for he was facing the woman. Mr. MILLS—Did you see him strike her ?—No ;his hand was lifted up, and I said, "Don't you strike her no more." With that he turned round. Mr. MILLS—Did you see anything in his hand at the time ? —No, Sir, nothing Mr. MILL Did he let his hand fall ? No, Sir, not then. Mr. MILLS—What did you say to him ?—I said, "You have hit the woman enough, de not hit her any more." Mr. MiLts—What did the man say then ?—He took his hand away and ran out of the room. Mr. Mu-Ls—Did he run past you 7—l caught him by the coat, but he got away, and ran out immediately without say ing anything. Mr. Mims—Did you see that he left anything behind him ? Nothing but the knife. The woman got out of the bed herself and came into the next room. She then gave a bit of a stagger, and down she fell at the fire-place. Mr. MILLS—Did she say nothing? Not a word, Sir. Mr. MILLS—Did you see any blood? She was covered with blood, and a pool of blood was beside her. Mr. Alits.e—What did you do then ? I ran out to the front door and said " Mistress, mistress, here awom t a h n e murdered." A policem an came i nto the ' is house and pulled knife out. Mr. MILLS—Did you see the knife? Yes, I saw it in the policeman's hand. Mr. Mius—Did you see it before ? Yes, in the policeman's hand in the room. The policeman said it was in five inches. Mr. MILLS —When did you see the woman before this day for the first time? I did not see her before she went to the hospital, about two years ago. Mr. MlLts—When was she in the house before ? About three weeks before, but not with the same man. I never saw the same man before. Mr. MILLS—What was he like ? He was about the middle size, dark, and he walked pretty straight. Mr. MILLS—Do you believe that was the man that stabbed the woman ? He was the only one that went in with her. • The Foreman—When they came in and paid you the three pence, was there any person in the passage ? No, not one, sir. Mr. Mit-Ls—Have you heard any one say that they know the man ? Yes, two women, who said that they knew him. A Juror—How long were they in the room together. About Sem minutes altogether. S A Juror—Did you see him after yot - gtit,tw,k6ll6lsPi': him:turning the corner of Broad-stree w)ae,p.rgiof‘toth doet.l Mary Hall examined—l live at N0...11_ Gemsltrnet, - husband's name is John. He is a le,attbr-dr&ser, a:4d riots', the house from Mr. Grout. Ido not kitsint3ehoseMe.- Grout - - is, or where he lives. He lives somewhere biL ttitlevarpygs , comes for his rent every week. Ido not know what rent my husband pays. The furniture belongs to Mr. Grout. I was in the house when the man and woman came, but I did not see them there. Palmer gave me the 3d., but she said no thing to me. They came in about ten minutes to eleven, and in about seven minutes I heard Palmer cry that a woman was murdered, and I ran for assistance. The man ran past me in passage and pushed me aside. There was no light there that 1 could see him by, for the light was in the room. He said nothing when he ran past me, and I did not know him at all. I knew the:woman well. She lodged with me about five or silt months, but I had not seen her since she left me, sometime ago. Her sister used to come to see her while she was with me. She did not live with any man while lodging with me, neither did any man come to see her. She was a quiet, sober woman. I never saw her intoxicated. She never told me that any one had threatened her life. I do not know where she lodged after she left me. I do not suspect any one, nor From what I have since heard do I suspect any one, except the person who was with her at my house. Ido not know the man who is suspected of having murdered her. I never saw him before the night in question. He rapidly passed me in the passage, and pushed me aside. I caught hold of his coat, which from the feel I should think was velveteen. Seme of the jury at the bottom of the table here put gene ral que.tions to the witness, in a conversational tone. -Mr. MILLS said, that if they had any question to put to her, either himself or the Coroner would do so. What she stated to them was not taken down, and could not be consi dered evidence. Mrs. Hall was recalled, and stated that her husband was not at home at the time of the murder. The husband of the deceased was then called. He is a respectable-looking man, between forty and fifty years of age, and was much affected. He stated that his name was James Brothers, and that he was employed by Messrs. Tratt and Hatfield, upholsterers, 19, Lower Brook-street, in the capacity of porter, and that he resided with his two daugh ters, at 8, George-court, Grosvenor-square. He said the de ceased's name was Mary, and her age about forty-six. I have been separated from her 15 or 16 years. I am not quite certain as to the time, but I could tell by the Marlborough police sheet. _ Mr. MILLS—Do you know where she lived within the last six months? Witness—l do not know exactly. Somewhere, I believe, in this neighbourhood. Mr. MILLS—When did you see her last? Witness—l have not seen her for the last eighteen months—perhaps two years. My children have not seen or spoken to her for seven years. Mr. Mims—How did you know the deceased was your wife? Witness—Her sister came and told me that she had been murdered. She was in the habit of seeing her, and had been sent for. Mr. MiLis—Do you know if any one had threatened to do her any injury? Witness —No, Sir. Ido not. Mr. MlAs—Have you any suspicion of the person who murdered her? Witness—No ' not in the least. I saw the body on Tuesday—it is the body of my wife.—(Here the witness was much affected, and tears rolled down his face.) He said his daughters, whom he had brought up, were fine women—that one was 19 years of age and the other 21. Mr. WAKLEY—We will not ask you anything more ; you had better retire. The witness then left the room. Jane Crook, the sister of the deceased, was the next wit ness examined.— She said she was a married woman, and re sided at .55, Seymour-street, Euston-square. Mary Brothers was my sister—the only one I had. The last time I saw her alive was on Saturday, at No. 2, Church-court, between five and six o'clock, on my return home from market.. That is not far from the place where her body now lies. A woman named Ann Scoones was there. No man was there. Ido not think she was living with any man. I had seen her more latterly than for some }ears before. I saw her frequently in the month of October last. Mr. MlLLs—Did she tell you that any one had threatened her life ? Witness—She told me that a man whom she had lived with a short time before, but whom she had left, owing to some quarrel they had had, had threatened her, and that she was afraid to go out for him. She said she had been very uncomfortable with him. I said, "-I wonder,.Mary you can content yourself to live in the way you do." Mr. MILLS—Do you know the name of that man. 'Wit ness—She said his name was Mellen. I am not certain of his Christian name, but I think it was William. I did not know what he then was, but I have since heard that he was a smith. Inspector Haynes said that person was taken into custody, but, on examination, he was found not to be the man sus pected of murdering the woman. The witnesses who saw the man with the woman on the night of the murder had positively stated that he was not the man. The witness said she had seen Mellen at Marylebone Police-office en Tuesday. Mr. WAKLEY inquired if the whole of the other witnesses who had seen the man suspected of committing the murder had seen Mellen ? Inspector Rawley said Mrs. Hall, Mrs. Palmer, Mr. Old ham, the cutler, who sold the knife with which the murder was committed, and the police-constable, had seen him. Mr. WAKLEY desired Mrs. Palmer to be recalled. In answer to questions from the Coroner, , she said that she went to Marylebone Police- aourt on Tuesday, and a man was shown to her, but he was not all like the man whom she let into the house on Monday night. Mr. Waxixv—That man was Mellen ? Inspector Haynes said he was. The examination of the deceased's sister was then resumed. —When I saw my sister on Saturday, she did not say she was living with any man, and, as I have said, I do not believe she was. Mellen was the man whom she was afraid of. I be lieve she had done something which she ought not to have done, and they had quarrelled. Mr. WAKLEY said (with respect to the descriptions which had been given of the suspected individual, and of the pub licity which would be given to them in the newspapers) the less said about him the better, as they would be merely an advertisement to him, advising him how to escape. Henry Oldham was next examined. lie said he was a cutler, at No. 10, High-street, directly opposite the houSe in which the inquest was held. The knife lying on the table I sold on Monday night, about ten minutes to ten o'clock, - as near as I can recollect. To a man who came into the shop and said " What is the cheapest small carving-knife you have P i I said, " I will serve you directly." I took out three knives and he purchased one of them, for which he paid one shilling. Not another word was uttered by him. Ile did net remain longer than three minutes. As he passed down the shop he was proceeding towards the door with the knife in his hand, which I thought somewhat extraordinary. I have no doubt the knife be ing the one I sold. I ground the edgeof thekrife, and wrapped it in paper, and he left theshop I did not notice him particu larly, but he was about 5 feet 4or 5 inches in height. He had on a dark coat, dirty trousers, and a hat. I think the coat was cloth, but I am not positive about it. His age I should think from 19 to 21, and he spoke like a youth. The CORONER said these different descriptions did the greatest mischief in the world. Witness continued—l did not notice whether he had an, whiskers. He was of a rather sallow complexion, and his features were large. He had no gloves on. I think I should know him again. Ile was sober, and did notappear at all excited. I never saw the man before. He looked a low character, as if he lived in the low part of St. Giles's. He had a dirty appearance altogether. It struck me as extraordinary when he wanted to take the knife out without anything on it. I• have the corresponding piece of paper that the knife was wrapped in. It was brown paper, with some writing on it. The man had on dark trousers. My daughter was standing beside me at the time, and took particular notice of him also. She is ten years of age. Mr. WAELEY—I think it will be better to give this infor mation privately to the polies. Witness continued—l do not know the woman. The witness who had been examined, and those also who had been summoned, were ordered to go into the next room. Witness continued—l saw the man who had been in cus toly, but he was not the man who purchased the knife. He was much stouter. John James Allen, 159 E, examined—l am a constable at the George -street station. On Monday night I was in the gateway in George-street, three doors below the house where the murder was committed. It was then a quarter to eleven o'clock, and I heard the door open, and saw a man run down past me towards Broad-street, but on the opposite side of the street. There was light enough from the lamp to see him. He was about 5 feet 6 inches in height. He . had a cap on with a peak, but I would not say whether it was a cloth cap or no. He had on lightish coloured trousers. I should know him again, but would not like to say what his features were. I think I have seen him before in this neigh bourhood. I am positive it was a cap, but will not say whether it was a seal-skin cap or a cloth one. About five or six minutes after the woman Palmer came to me, and said— " Come here, policeman ; here's a woman been struck at Mrs. Hall's." I heard no alarm, and the woman Palmer came very quietly indeed. Palmer said the woman was bleeding very much. I told Mr. Inspector Rawley that there was some thing wrong below, and Willis and I went there In the passage there were three or four women, and on entering the room we found the woman on the floor with the knife about five inches. I tried to pull it out lightly , but found sticking is the wound at the back of the neck. It was in it sticking fast, and I was obliged to pull it out with a jerk. She was not dead then, for she gave a sort of smile , and I ran for the surgeon. Mr. Simpson was not at home, and I ran for Mr. Fitzgerald. By a Juror It was five or six minutes after the man had ran passed before the woman came to me, but no person came out of the house in the interval. by yat observing that nothing a 1 l By the CORONER — From the slight glance I got of the man, I should say he was about thirty. been n pp e e xa d the inquiry and fur ther would be done this day. He should not fi x an h our for resu ming the inquest, in order to avoid the difficulties which The we CORONER witnesses h h e a r d e had arisen in former instances from the interference of the magistrates' courts. For this reason only it was that he ad journed the inquest without naming a time for its future sit ting, so that if the prisoner were taken into custody, he would at once be ordered before that Court. This would do away with the difficulty, and at the same time give the Commis sioners of Police no excuse for interfering with the proceed ings of the Coroners' Courts. The inquest was then formally declared adjourned, and the room was cleared of t s rangers. The inquiry did not seem to cause that excitement which might naturally have been expected, but this might probably arise from the fact of the hour for holding the inquest being only fixed on Wednesday. In George-street and its vicinity the same intense desire to gaze upon the scene of the murder still prevails, and thousands of persons succeed each other throughout the day. Many rumours are current as to the murderer having been seen in various places, but of course they are not entitled to the slightest credit. The station houses are alsO besieged with curious inquirers, but the in formation distilled in driblets from the police is of the most unsatisfactory character. MILITARY SAVINGS BANKS. Account of the amount of all sums deposited in the Mi litary or Regimental Savings Banks, within the year ended the 31st March, 1844 ; of all sums withdrawn during the same period ; and of the interest allowed upon such deposits ; and also the number of deposi tors on the said 31st day of March, 1844.—(Pursuant to the Act 5 and 6 Victoria, c. 71.) . , Amount of sums deposited Amount of deposits withdrawn Amount of interest allowed 96 10 1 Balance due by the public Number of depositors The warrant establishing the Regimental Savings Banks was dated the 11th October, 1843. SIDNEY HERBERT. War-office, March 18, 1845. GAME.—We have much pleasure in stating that the occupiers of farms under the Duke of Bedford, besides tke privilege of destroying rabbits, e have now permission to course down the hares. We have, further, the best possible grounds for believing that his Grace has turned his most anxious con sideration to the general subject of game preserving.—Osanty Press.