The Sun. — London, England, 1844-07-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING , JU LY 12, yid / at four per cent. for the constructs ) t e , t4 eir railways, whilst the return was only t rind a half. How was the difference made up ? ltdo e e t , e ealY by public taxaton.—(Hear, hear.) On e at .e p se grounds he objected to t this all, and he believed lost" it were passed, the result would be a competition unfair, most intolerable, most ruinous to the rail johtionest u n j us t to a ll c l asses , an d mos t productive of nF and mischief. He could not consent to give any th e 4 4 eept one of direct negative to the motion before hl —{Cheers:) sear eer ALLACE said he had been one of the first to It Plain in that House of the monopoly of railways, and th, -. Jection to the system was now rather increased aeel iminished. It had bee stated hat the pubic toott ult d erest in hat I t but he t held in his l k hand a th 'Len which showed that that was nut the case. It was t ,: d P e etitio n of a number of merchants, manufacturers, and ge a ren in Birmingham complaining that a most te ee in g monopoly had been established by railway i t hr i a i a ies, and that they had interfered most materially t un the free sending of goods to different parts of the e a - it erY• He believed there were god grounds fur th e p more extensive changes than those proposed in Ti mes 'L '' Having read that extract from the Railway Gal he would read an extract from that most influen ePaper, the Times itself. (The extract contained a 0 :! Plaint of the treatment which travellers by the third re'eZ trains experienced at the hands of the railway di • 4, 4 4 .) From the first time that these companies had th e e stablished they had constantly ground the face of e tti !eer• They had systematically contrived their ar- Q e elents to compel people to take the first or second carriage s instead of the third. ese ne licseie MEMBER then moved that the House be l otiti r, and the gallery was cleared, but there were 0 11 counting to be a sufficient number present to I t ° a hou se . O n our re - a d m i ss i on we f ou nd s ki ' WALLACE going through a statement of the "us rates of charges per mile upon the several rail er,: _ e 3 ;i l " a pt Great Britain and Ireland, but it was impossible Th e anything of his statement taken up at the close. oe, f ""eking classes could travel at an expense of only I N :rlhing a mile between the town which he repre- Ne e a nd Glasgow, whereas between those great em tee 4 1 1 's of manufactures, Birmingham and Manchester, `ha t ;', a l . ge woes 2d. per mile. He advocated an entire io 'cur OF the system, which was at present constructed t o 'eur of the few and against the many. Ile should, ealZore, give the Bill his best support. He was de- Y in favour of competing lines ; and he could not l inag e a ny reason why there should not be competing tle every direction. The railways from London to 1e, 0 ,001 paid 12 per cent. Why should there not be k e i ne; with 6 per cent as a sufficient remuneration? IN . ' with regard to the conduct which the Post-office te er e qerienced from the railway companies, he thought se nd must be a very strong impression on the public sh e , . (hear, hear.) He could give many instances te e . QM the necessity of some decided restraint upon "le Droved to be absolutely necessary. Whilst ion this this subject,' he might be permitted to say that ad been stated the Scottish people were willing not to S e aye ,mail-trains on a Sunday, in order to avoid the de ab:ation of the Sabbath. This was all nonsense—all e t ,,ehttely untrue. A few persons, calling themselves Useple of Scotland, said his countrymen were against Andrewng ; but these were only such persons as f eet Agnew, who knew nothing at all of the real b e e s a gs of the people. To revert, however, to the Bill te s : r e the House, he had only one objection to it, and lamb Was that it did not go , far enough.—(Hear, and farteter.) No, he repeated, it did not by any means go ee e e neugh. Still, so f ar as it did go, it was a most excel to teQ to asteee, calculated to do a great deal of good, and te e m e rt "ory high credit upon the Government. He eco lt ',Zitinisters would not heed anything the directors ten. " ue, but go on firmly with their measure, which eairily should have his very best support. 1 ar' 1) ,c • BULLER said he could not help remarking tepee fight animadversions which had been indulged in by , e"'ght Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board e'retle, as to the motives of those gentlemen who % l a b a l : ( 4B ed this Bill, and the self-laudation with which he le ee alx)ken of the conduct of the Government. That tert Ron. Gentleman really seemed to suppose that tue te e PPesition to this Bill had been got up from the es ti t and most interested motives, and that every dis tetdn i t from th views of the Government was influ eteen his opinions and actions by those Parliamentary q t s whom he had taken upon himself to denounce in tem stro ng and unmeasured terms as the most active e ta f ormidable opponents of the Bill. He (Mr. Buller) C at at t. eenfess he had heard so much of this self-laudation was quite sick of it, becauge his experience told pee that when Government did array great masses of the t ett i' L l e against them, it was sometimes done quite as b oe c4 hy their own folly, as at other times by their own t ee l s ,tY and public virtue. And he thought, when he of e ."ected the course pursued during the long period D es ' e .e years by those now in power, but then in op tti 'eon— when he recollected that for all that period eY, had organised into a conspiracy against the public the; all the private interests of the nation, it was, to say et th eaa t of it, somewhat presumptuous in any Member b et; e Present Government to indulge in the self appro hea:,,(l' and ca n t o f w hich they had for the last few days e tto F„ se much.—(Hear, hear.) For his own part , he f ee July ackn ow l e dged he did not participate in th o s e e tte 4n gs of animosity, distrust, and suspicion, which were thi inpted to be raised against the railway interest of s country.—(Hear hear.) He must own that when yrer he had to travel , by railway he travelled in a most co re , foltable and commodious carriage, at three times the sy n eed h e f ormerly could, and generally for the same rate of fare as on the top of a coach. He could not then but t "'lnk them a grea t good, and he thought it but fair in tay one not to look too harshly upon any imperfections, ne w it was not to be wondered at should exist in su system.—(Hear, hear.) The general argument 13 , 1 1 which he intended to found a few observation s, was tibia —that they should not rashly interfere with the r ee re sent system of railways, for by them the public ha d i t u t ained the g rea t es t increase of power and comfort that ayl taken place in our time. And before they started their Vr t :" Of interference, he thought it but right that the toectsre and the public should have the opportunity of w as o a ,n t ee; that which they proposed, with that which btutbhte , w n existence.—(Hear, hear.) There was no e vils in the management of the present system, " as asked them to satisfy his mind that there were no te e e l u „ the plan which they proposed to substitute ? If o f were so great as stated in the present system te tt i Ltw aYs, it behoved that House to give a very at tn. " 1 " consideration to the subject before they deter ft:led what alteration should be made in it. He con sed) however, that his great objection to the present 14":"ding was, that they should be called upon to legis th: on such a subject in so short a period of tt . , o .. i e• Were they, on the first intimation of evil o adopt any plan or remedy which the Government, al _ at late period of the session, might choose to point Z t t. lt to them ? Were they to be called on in the month e e je ly, for the first time, to pass a Bill, founded on I te ' e ,, reports, which he, for one, candidly confessed he 1 ) "," „ever read ? (Ironical cheers from the Treasury t c-el ' e s.) He did not think it necessary to plead guilty h i ° a eY dereliction of duty for not having read these vo e-anrs, for the House had been most fully engaged on ennus subjects of the highest importance, and there ee - e ' r heen quite sufficient to fully occupy the mind of t eee nen. Member. And it, moreover, had never en -41,1( Into his mind to conceive that any Government, at 11,;,,' period of the session, would call upon the I , - ," 50 to legislate upon a subject at once so e l;Ts and so important.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, 1s Bill, first of all, went to interfere with y z atn property in such a way as never was before heard le that House—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—in a R4 l', tee, -. contrary to all our habits, all our institutions , ' the spirit of British enterprise ; for this Bill directly t', e llesed to give to the Government the power of taking l 1 ,0 railways into their own hands. But the Right H on. re sident of the Board of Trade said they could not act Jeri the clause which gave this power. Then why was zi ,"• an inoperative clause left in the Bill ? Clauses one, -' Pe, eight, and others he could turn to, all gave or C,"rtned the power of purchase, and the sixteenth clause ,°‘ only says railways may be purchased, but actually 1, 11 /lets in whom they are to be vested when they are pur ee-ea'3ed--(Hear, hear.) Then there was the 38th clause, ' r : exceedingly stringent one, by which Government was 'Choa control over all existing railways, as well as e hereafter to be made ; therefore the public were quitethe right in the interpretation which they had put upon re - " e Clauses of the Bill. It would not alarm the public so Purchasing if the only power the Government had was that of e lr ehasing the railway. But the Government was ern e"wered by the 38th clause to make contracts with e x • 4t in" railways. 'fr. W. B. GLADSTONE observed that that was 'let so. is it C. BULLER said that if that was not so, he did th know the meaning of the clause. If a n y railwa y know t e e - "Pany wanted to increase its powers, they had not to 6' 4 ' l e bef ore P ar li a ment, but before the Lords of the a ltinittee, an d so, in fact, to come before the Board of Trade- It was on this ground that he objected to this me asure. It seemed to him extraordinary that at the res ent day parties should get up in the House of Co m- Zs i. ef Great Britain and defend private ente r p rise, It c ' t had made this country the greatest i n the world. t o '!PPeared to be the wish of the Bo ard of Trade Interfere as much as possible with t he pri 1114e enterprises of her Majesty's subjects. He did not know where this interference was to end ; übably by and be they would have an assistant corn ssioner to cut their meat for them, bccause the Go- Tr :l ntent could do everything better than any one e lse. t them look at the turnpike roads of this country. he Y had been made without the assistance of the Go trnment. The roads in France had been made un der e superintendence of the Government, and he would En gland it t o t h ose w h o h a d t rave lled in France and in ;:i, 44 , gland to say which were the best.—(Hear, hear.) lighting of the towns in England had been accom plished by private individuals, and where, he would a n a g• Where were there towns better lighted than in this country? Even the buoying and lighting of the coasts of this country was not left to the Government, but to li_a than the Trinity H of ouse, and where was a coast better lighted Great Britain? The great Bedford n ' e vel, that was the work of private individuals, e i Cr were all the colonies of this country planted ? Y , by private companies, and not by the Govern se,eet. Such being the case, why should they put them tLiv s into the leading-strings of the Government, and Il e _row aside those great principles by which the great ess of this country had been accomplished ? As to emi gi.ation he did not think that the Noble Lord's plan had _effected so much as the perseverance of private indi viduals. It was absurd to attempt tdeput railroads under the surveillance of postmasters-general. Look at the inefficiency th a t h a d b een s h own by suc h officers—an etafficiency that b e wou ld ven t ur e to say would never taken pl ace un d er t h e con t ro l o f pr i vate indi i !deals. Then, again, there was the Admiralty, a por tion of th e G overnment, h e wou ld venture to say, that had been more backward than any other in adopting im provements. Would they have got rid of the prejudice against steamers it they had been left to the Lords of the Admiralty ? Look at the Halifax packets. They were called coffins, and properly so, be cause they almost invariably sent their eret 4 e to ail un timely grave. Look tit flab length of time that they took to cross the Atlantic, and yet it had been asserted that it was impossible to effect a quicker passage than they did until the establishment of the' Great Western steam-ship, which proved the contrary. London steamers, too, that were the property of private indivi duals, would carry parties from London to Boulogne for far less than a Government packet would take parties from Dover to Calais. He thought the public -right in supposing that private enterprise was the best calculated to excite activity, and to ensure the public interest. They were equally right in supposing that whenever they put great branches of trade into the, hands of a Government, there was apt to be great apathy upon the subject, and a considerable portion of political jobbing. Ile objected to this system of centralisation, because it was incon sistent with the national character, and made men act as slaves instead of free men. But then it was said that the provisions of part of the Bill were for the benefit of the poor of the country. That might be so, but he must confess that he certainly was not prepared for any Government providing for the poor, in tho manner laid down in the Bill. The Bill, instead of providing for the poor man at the expense of the Government, did it at the expense of the railway company. Now, in his opinion, such a system was not worth the legislation of that House. He could under stand how this clause was to work, although the distinc tions between rich and poor were to be drawn. Fur what had been the result ? Why, where the third class carriages had been made comfortable, gentlemen had gone into them. The fact was, they could not make a di•tinction between the rich and poor man. He should like to ask a question of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and in doing so, he hoped he should not be considered in vidious—but he wished to know who was Jack Cade now?—(Laughter.) He thought that this clause came with a very bad grace from a Government who had charged them with being Jack Cedes, because they wished to lighten the hours of labour in factories. If 1 he understood rightly, Jack Cade tried to regulate the i price of commodities. But here the Government exis wanted the railroad :proprietors to pay the expenses of convenience to the poor. When they on his side 'of the House came forward to decrease the hours of la bour, they were met by the name of Jack Cade by a Government who were endeavouring to interfere with private property in the unexampled manner propose] by this BilL He thought there was one thing that ren dered the present time the must unfit to introduce such a measure, anti that was because the whole plan of rail ways was likely to be greatly improved. •Let them look at the proposition for atmospheric railways. Why, if that could be brought into operation, there was not a single turnpike road upon which they might not have a railway. The Bill seemed to him to prevent the improvement of existing railroads as much as it did new ones. He trusted he had not occupied too much of the time of the House in bringing before it arguments, which he did not pretend to say ought to have such weight with the House as to induce it to decide on such a subject as this. But he had presented considerations which had sufficient weight in his own mind to induce him to say that this House ought to pause on such a question be fore it adopted the measure irrevocably at the present period of the session. He believed that the evils of monopoly with regard to the railways, that were so much talked of, were exceedingly hypothetical. They were looking rather at what the rail roads were four or five years ago, when it was considered impossible that so many competing lines could come into play. But it was the general statement that the country was now becoming covered with a " net-work" of railroad, which would always secure a large amount of competition. This competi tion would be the real safeguard to the public, and they ought not to deprive the public of that safeguard till they were perfectly sure, on the best information and fullest discussion of the subject, that they had hit upon some plan which would give the public a better security than it now possessed, both for good management, secu rity, and cheapness. He perfectly admitted that rail ways required control and regulation—he perfectly ad mitted that. The law did control all private enterprise; he had never heard that trade was to be exempted from the operation of the law. Let them adopt regulations, then, for these establishments, but let them apply those restrictions by legislation, and not by the wholesale plan of transferring the whole of the railways over to the will of the Government. Surely a subject of this magnitude required the meditation of one recess, and the discussion of at least one session. Let them have a Bill, making all the restrictions neces sary, and to such a Bill he would give his support. But let them not pass, in such a hurry, a measure like this, which handed over the control of all the railways to the Executive Government. Mr. S. WORTLEY said he concurred in most of the observations that had fallen from the Hon. Member for Liskeard. He had passed a glowing eulogium on pri vate energy and enterprise, and none would more readily concur in the justice of that eulogium than himself. But the House was not called on to say that all private enterprise in this respect was to be sub mitted to the Government ; the measure only claimed a reservation of the power to control these lines at a future time. The Bill only reserved to the Government a dis cretionary power. He should vote for the Bill on the simple understanding that they were not about to inter fere with enterprise. He would admit that they had not the elements of the question before them ; if he thought that the Bill implied one-tenth part of what had been attributed to it, he would oppose it. But he be lieved those statements were totally founded on misconstructions. Among those assumptions wero some very extraordinary ones. Honourable Gentlemen seemed to suppose that the whole management of the railroads was to be undertaken by the Government. This was not the case; though it was not impossible that the Government might hereafter adopt a plan somewhat resembling that pursued in France, of purchasing the land for the line, and allowing private capital to carry out the work. He did pot pronounce any opinion on this plan, but he thought it not unjust; for Parliament at the present period of railway history should have some degree of control. He had a strong sense of the benefits which the railway companies had conferred on the country. Considering the vast amount of their business, there was but little cause for complaint ; very great accommodation was afforded to the pub lic. But still it could not be forgotten that they had arrived at a pint at which the greater part of all the necessary lines of communication were constructed, and twenty or thirty years hence they might have to interfere at great disadvantage. He confessed that, at first, he looked at the Bill with some apprehension — (Hear, hear)—and he still objected to some of the clauses ; but that was no reason why the Bill should be prevented from going to the second reading. He had great doubts as to the policy of the guarantee, as calculated to remove all motives for the good management of a line. The second clause was also a point for consideration. But these difficulties must be met now or at some future time, or they must sit down quietly with their hands folded, and submit to all the consequences, however inconvenient to the public. Mr. GISBORNE commenced by saying that he never heard a speech which had so completely exhausted the subject as the speech which he had just heard. He must say he was struck at the singular contrast which existed between the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Hon. Gentleman opposite. The speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman was, no doubt, one of great talent; but it was a slashing speech, full of attacks upon every person, and imputing motives, so that one might have thought that the speech came from the Colonial-office, though the measure came from the Board of Trade. He did not think the Right Hon. Gentleman was justified in saying that they endeavoured to stifle all discussion, and not to allow the Right Hon. Gentleman to introduce his Bill. The present Government seemed to him to be very desirous of casting imputations on their opponents. So on the Bank Charter Bill, the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had said that he was a friend to non-convertibility, because be opposed that Bill. But it was always the case with those who manufactured quack medicines to be very angry if they were not taken. Now what was the history of this Bill ? When the Right Hon. Gentleman went into Committee, he thought he was pregnant with a great scheme ; and when he came out he was no doubt disconcerted at his little abortion. The Right Hon. Gentleman produced his hypothetical outline, but it was sadly cut down, and he was obliged to abandon it. The present Bill was supported by the late and the present President of the Board of Trade, but it was not a little curious, that while one considered the power of purchase as the main provision of the Bill, the other thought that the revision clause was the im portant part of it. Now, he would try the Bill by a not unfair test. He would suppose a President of the Board of Trade living some years ago possessing, if that were possible the united wisdom of both, and that the provi sions of that Bill were to come into operation now, how would it apply to the London and Birmingham Railway? With regard to the 10 per cent. clause, the London and Birmingham Railway Company would be too wary to divide a clear annual profit, amounting to more than 91. 19s. In point of fact, the 10 per cent. clause was in operation at this moment. They thought it enough to have a dividend of 10 per cent., and they refused the less palatable traffic, such as coals and minerals. They would not dirty their hands with coal.— (Laughter and cheers.) They even laid a prohibition on the coals which were brought on the Midland Counties Railway, which could be brought, as he was prepared to prove, at three farthings per ton per mile. They could not deal with railways under the provision clause. Then it was said that they would purchase railways. Did any man in the kingdom, who was left at large, believe in the practica bility of buying up those railways? There were 40 miles of railroad at Exeter, and 60 at York, and the manage ment of these was to be in a board here. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, called something a farce. He would use an equally ex pressive word, and say that the right of purchase was all gammon.—(Laughter.) Everybody knew it could not be acted upon. Evidence was given before the Committee as to the extent of the power of revision which the Go vernment should possess, and no part of the hypothetical outline was so completely smashed as this power of revision. It was shown that the Government could not act on it. The Right Hon. Gentleman had misrepresented him (Mr. Gisborne) when he said that he was giving the Government a more extensive power. What he said was, and ho still retained the same opi nion, that there was net medium between allowing the largest competition and the Government taking all rail ways into their hands. Under the present system they had the power of making improvements, not only of a mechanical kind, but Lin the way of economical managements, which would not take place if railways were in the hands of the Government. He was even afraid that, under the Government, they would fall behind other countries with respect to their manage ment. He regretted to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman say that competition was no proteceion to the public in the case of railways. He thought the Right Hon. Gen tie= should have abstained from expressing such an qplon; unless he were probidtd with sdniething else to . atk on. It had been said that competing lines would be no advantage to the public, because they would be purchased up by existing lines ; but that was taking a one-sided view of the case. Would not existing lines consider it better to humour the public, and to treat them in such a manner as to afford no occasion for com peting lines ? If even competing lines were purchased that could only be effected by the sacrifice of profit, and it would be a warning to others. Some evidence was adduced to show that competition would be of no advan tage to the public, and the Midland Counties Railway was adduced as an instance. When that line and the Derby and Birmingham line were competing, the fares were greatly reduced, and the public was a gainer ; and when they were united the fares were not raised higher than before ; so that the public had gained something, and lost nothing. There was one solitary case, that of the Manchester and Leeds and the Chester and Crewe Railway, and that was the only case in which it had been shown that com petition had been of no benefit. But even in that case the fares had not been raised above what they had bsen originally. If they did nothing else to regulate railways he besought them not to do anything to diminish the value of competition. One of the warmest supporters of the measure was the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lin coln. He confessed that ho hated railways, and thought this measure would snub them, and keep them in order. Another Honourable Member supported the measure because he thought the Railway Com panics were overbearing, and he was glad to keep them down. What would this Bill do ? With the existing companies it would do nothing with the railways that were to be formed it would not deal for fifteen years Their great nephews and great grand children might benefit by the Bill, but for the present it would be totally inoperative. It was said it would be a great benefit to the lower orders, because they would be carried at a diminished rate of charge. Now all that the Bill required was, that a train should start once in the day, carrying persons for a sum not exceeding Id. per mile, at a rate of at least twelve miles an hour. in covered carriages. Now, the rate at which all the 1.. g, railway companies carried persons at present was Id. and 15-100ths of ld. a mile, and the average was only brought up to that rate because some of the com panies Charged very high for their third-class passengers. A great many of them carried their passengers at less than Id. a mile. The South-Eastern ( the Dover) line carried third-class passengers at the rate of id. a mile. The Newcastle and Shields at the rate of Id. per mile. The Edinburgh and Glasgow at the rate of Id. per mile. The Midland Counties ran third-class trains twice a day at the rate of 'id. a mile. He took these statements from the speech of the Hon. Member for Greenock, who had made a speech on one side of the question and in tended to vote on the other. All the advantage they would get by this measure was, that they would secure covered carriages for third-class passengers; and he asked the House whether it was worth while to sanction the objectionable principles of this Bill for this small ad vantage? There were four or five railways in which there were no third-class carriages, and so far as they were concerned of course the Bill would be an advantage. He thought that if any measure were required for the regulation of railways this was a small and inefficient measure for that purpose. He asked those who wished for a measure for regulating railways if they would accept such a half measure as this? Though small, it was the first-born, and might inherit to the detriment of its betters, if it were not smothered in its birth. Sir ROBERT PEEL regretted to see that such ad. vantage bad been taken of the good nature of the lion. Gentleman—(A. laugh)—and when he saw all the railway proprietors, and persons connected with rail ways, supporting this motion, and showing themselves so ready to avail themselves of it, he could not help feeling that advantage had been taken of the ingenuous ness of the Hon. Gentleman.—(A laugh.) He feared that ingenuousness had been abused—that that modesty had been taken advantage of.—(A laugh.) The Hon. Gentleman was most ingenuous— " Ingenui vultus puer, ingenuique pudoris." The railway companies gladly availed themselves of the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman said that her Majesty's Government were in the habit of attacking these railway companies, and so sensitive had the Hon. Gentleman becoma, that he had absolutely attacked him (Sir Robert Peel) for having been guilty of personality, because, in the debate on the Bank Charter Bill, he had said that certain Members had ab solutely had an eye to non:convertibility.—(A. laugh.) Now, if that could be considered a gross per sonal reflection, he certainly must say that he had never charged the Hon. Gentleman with having . an eye to non-convertibility.—(Laughter.) He had certainly said that the argument tended to non -convertibility ; but he certainly could not understand why, night after night, the reflection was cast upon the Government that they had been guilty of a gross violation of Parliament ary decorum, because he had charged the Hon. Gentle man and the Hon. Member for Lambeth with having, in their argument on the Bank Charter Bill, had an eye to no n-covertibility.—(Laughter.) Mr. HAWES—I never charged you with a breach of Parliamentary decorum. Sir ROBERT PEEL had not heard the Hon. Member for Lambeth complain that he had exceeded the bounds of Parliamentary decorum. The Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken had grievously complained that his Right Hon. Friend had made a brilliant speech. The Board of Trade, according to the Hon. Gentleman, ought to deal in arithmetic and statistics, and had nothing to do with brilliancy and rhetoric. Now, really it was too bad of the Hon. Gentleman to make this complaint of his Right Hon. Friend, when thellion. Gentleman him self had taken the opportunity of making a most brilliant and a witty speech on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) He should be very sorry if, in giving his vote for this Bill, he should be considered as intending to cast the slightest reflection on the manner in which the existing railroad companies had been formed and were conducted. He thought it, under the circumstances, a proud thing for this country that the existing railroads had been completed by private interest and private capital. And so far as the present superintendence of railways went, those who had the conducting of that superinten dence were entitled to the greatest credit for the uniform civility which was exhibited by the companies towards the public, through all their subordinate agents, who, without any view to a personal or pecuniary gain, were equally attentive and kind to all cases, whether rich or poor, and that to a degree which did not exist in any other department of the public service. He hoped that this attention to the wants of individuals, without seeking for any personal or pecu niary advantage, would still be continued. It was im possible to over-rate the benefits which had been con ferred on the public by these regulations. Therefore in voting for this Bill he begged to be considered as wish ing to speak of the railway companies with the greatest respect. The question was, if they were not arrived at a period of railway legislation when it was absolutely necessary Parliament should take some cognizance of the subject. The Hon. Member objected that they did not go far enough, but the objection, until the Hon. Gentleman had spoken, had been that the Bill went toa far, and that it was monstrous to introduce at so late a period of the session a Bill so calculated to excite anxiety in all parties connected with railroads through out the country. ,Mr. GISBORNE did not wish them to interfere at all. Sir R. PEEL—Perhaps so ; but if they interfered , he said they did not go far enoug. Nov suppose they had proposed to go much further, although they might have the support of the Hon. Gentleman's vote — Mr. GISBORNE—No, no. Sir R. PEEL—They would have then to encounter, without securing the Hon. Gentleman's vote, a much greater weight of opposition than they had at present. l'he Hon. Gentleman proposed to abandon all legisla tion, and to leave everything to competition. Now what chance would they have of establishing a competing line to the Manchester and Liverpool line? An attempt had been made to establish the Trent Railway, and he hoped that Bill would now pass. It was introduced now under the auspices of two companies, who, during two ses sions, had opposed `it, and the attempt to establish this line of forty miles in extent had cost 166,0001. So difficult was it to overcome the union of railway inte rests in the House of Commons. The Hon. Member for Durham had complained that he had called the railway companies monopolies. Now, with regard to the London and Birmingham Railway, that certainly was a mono poly as against posting—it was a monopoly as against stage-coaches—and it was a decided monopoly as tar as railways were concerned. Now, considering the power of railway proprietors in that House, competition was not sufficient to control these monopolies ; and when they considered that within the course of the present and the next session of Parliament, application would probably be made to complete one thousand additional lines of railway. He thought the time had come for legislation on the subject. Under these circumstances he thought it advantageous for the public interests that Parliament should take some precaution, and he should, therefore, give his vote for the Bill of his Hon. Friend. He was not prepared to advise the immediate purchase of those railroads. He did not wish that any department of the Government should be converted into a railway directory. That was not the object of the Bill, but the object of it was to prevent the public from being subjected to imposition. It was known that a great number of new railways were projected, and about to receive the sanction of the Legislature. In each of those new and very extensive powers were given in taking land, &c., and what the Government wished to do was to give notice to these parties, that after the lapse of a cer tain time it would be competent for Parliament to deal with them. The Bill proposed, that after the lapse of fifteen years it would be competent for Parliament to consider the powers now about to be conferred, and to make other alterations which would be required for the public interests. They dealt with railroads on the same principle as they dealt with the Bank of England. The Legislature conferred on that Bank a qualified mono poly; not permanent, however, but it was reserved for Parliament, after a lapse of twenty years, to make what new terms it pleased.—(Hear, hear.) He took the same course with respect to the East India Company. The Government in these cases did not give a permanent tenure of authority—there was a limit in respect to duration, and there was a power reserved for Parliament to reconsider the provisions of such matters. The real question was, would they permit a certain number of new esta blishments to become permanent and unqualified mono polies, or give Parliament the privilege of reconsidering these powers? If the Government was to say that the Bill should only last for 15 years, it would extinguish all speculation. To reserve to Parliament the power of reconsidering all contracts would have the same effect. No such violent remedy was needed, but a power was required, which the Bill provided—that with the sanc tion of Parliament, the power of purchasing these esta blishments, taking, as the amount of purchase, 25 years' in point cf time, and three years' average of tir divi sible profits. In case the profits exceeded 10 per cent., the Bill claimed a power of interference on the part of the public, and would have a right to demand a reduc tion of fares: If the principle of legislative interfer- ence was at all admitted, he could not conceive a more liberal or equitable nianner t3f provid:pg for it.—(Hear, hear.) The Government claimed the power of revision under the Bill. He would not then enter into the details, and would only consider the ge neral principles of the measure. The Hon. Member for Newcastle, and other Hon. Members, had spoken a good deal about railway companies being taken by surprise. They said the Bill was not brought in until a late period of the session, and that railway proprietors were taken by surprise. But the report of the Committee, which appeared in the April of this year, distinctly stated that the present would be a favourable time for legislation. After quoting the different reports of the Railway Coin mittee from April down to a late period, the Right Hon. Baronet proceeded to say that he should deprecate strongly the frequent exercise of this power on the part of the Legislature, and a regard to the public interests could alone justify its application. The Bill took pre cautions on the subject of conveyance. He would not take to himself any especial credit for guarding the inte rests of the humbler classes, but he thought Parlia ment should have regard to providing a cheap and safe mode of conveyance for them. Foreign countries had given the subject much attention. He held in his hand a report of the French Chamber, which showed that the legislators of France did not think it out of their province to make provision for the com forts of the humbler classes. The Committee of the French Chamber said they had more than once pro tested against the use of open carriages. It appeared to them that the interests of humanity enjoined them not to condemn the humbler classes of society to incon venience and danger. The mode of transit in open car riages not only exposed the passengers to the air, but also to the risk of fire from the particles thrown out by the engine. The writer insisted that the third-class trains should always be established at fares not exceed ing three farthings per • mile, and considered that the second class carriages should have windows, and the third-class curtains.—(liear, hear.) Now, in sanction ing railroads by which all other modes of conveyance were destroyed, he thought it was acting but right that the Legislature should provide " securities" for the comfort and convenience of the humbler classes.--(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman opposite took a very high tone on the subject of railways. He seemed to think that they had an unlimited right to deal with the public as they thought fit. Be it so as to exist ing railways ; be it that the London and Birmingham company had a right to say, in rather aristocratic lan guage, " We will not soil our carriages by the convey ance of coal." Still the question was whether, when they were going to give powers to new companies, they should not take some moderate and rational precautions against their abuse.—(Hear, hear.) If he thought that the effect of this Bill would be to destroy that private enterprise in which railways had originated, he would not consent to its being passed into a law. But he did not believe that the precautions which his Right Hon. Friend proposed to establish would have the effect either of preventing or impeding the application of private capital. Since the first rep ort wa s published, publicly announcing that some precautions ought to be taken, he had had the satisfaction of seeing that thirty new railroad schemes bad been proposed, entailing an expenditure of not less than 24,220,000/.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped that railways would be conducted by competi tion, and the application of private capital.—(bear, hear.) He hoped most sincerely that the necessity would never arise for the Government undertaking the management of railways. Whether a case might e ver arise in which it would be desirable for the Government either to construct some short line of railway, in order to ascertain the expense, or to establish the example of a mode of management, he pronounced no opinion. But he shonld deprecate the transfer of patronage. He trusted the Government would never be converted into the directors of a railway.—(Hear , hear.) At the same time, he hoped they would have that degree of control which was necessary, both as a security for the public, and to prevent abuse.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that Parliament would give them that dormant power of a purchase—that dormant power of interference which would operate as a tacit and effec tual check upon extravagant demands by these com panies. Upon these grounds, retaining his respect for these companies, and knowing that they were under the deepest obligations to them—deprecating any measure which would prevent a similar application of capital, yet thinking it right that they should make security for the public against exaction and against abuse, he should give his cordial support to the measure proposed by the Right lion. Gentleman.—(Cheers.) Mr. WARD rose amidst cries of " Divide, divide." The Hon. Member said he thought the case stated by the Right Hon . Baronet was one to which no future railway company could possibly object.—(Hear, from tie Ministerial benches.) If nothing were intended but a notice to railway companies, that after a certain num ber of years their tolls were to be subject to a revision, there was no company about to apply to Parliament which could object to such a proceeding.—(Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly, with respect to the conveyance of letters, the Government had a right to require from the railway companies whatever was necessary. The same remarks might be made in reference to the conveyance of troops at the lowest possible charge.—(Hear, hear.) The clause with regard to third-class carriages was abso lutely unexceptionable. His objection to it in the first instance arose from the understanding that third-class carriages were required to accompany every train. What he complained of with regard to this Bill was, that it was not what it professed to be, and that powers were taken by it which had excited the deepest alarm amongst all p Tsons connected with railways. If the Govern ment did not mean to use their formidable powers, why did they propose to take them ? The whole Bill, from the 7th clause to the 24th, was a complete system of Government interposition. He objected most strongly to the powers conferred. He believed that the measure had been -brought forward without sufficient considera tion ; but if a notice of future regulations was all that was required by the Government, and if it were in that light that the Bill was to be received, he would put it to those gentlemen who had hitherto concurred with him, whether it was advisable to go to a division. Mr. GLADSTONE entirely concurred in the sug gestions of his Hon. Friend. The Bill was based upon the report presented to the House some time ago. Mr. HAWES (who spoke amidst loud cries of " Di vide,") said that the effect of the Bill would be to ,place all railways under the direct control of the Government. On the line of communication with Ireland that certainly would be the result. If the clauses which gave the Go vernment such control were thrown out he would not ob ject to the Bill. He could not sit down without defend ing the character of the professional gentlemen who had opposed the Bill. He sat down amidst loud cries of " Divide." Mr. MUNTZ said, that in opposing this Bill he had no personal motive, except that he derived great advantage and convenience from the railways, and he wished to see them extended all over the king dom. There was another consideration, that al though the Right Honourable Baronet and his colleagues might look at this "as a dormant power," who was to guarantee that some future Government would not look at it in a different light? That which was a " dormant power" might, in future times, and in other hands H , become a very active and a very danger ous one. e was most anxious that the railway system should be fully developed throughout the country, because he considered it fraught with innumerable blessings. F or this reason he should give his decided opposition to the Bill before the House.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. S. CRAWFORD said it was a rare thing indeed for him to be seen giving a vote in favour of a measure brought in by the Government. But looking on this Bill as especially formed to benefit and assist the poor working-man, he felt it his duty to rise in the House and thus briefly to thank the Government for bringing it in.---(Cheers.) He had the greatest pleasure in sup porting the Bill with his vote.--(Hear, hear.) The House then divided, when there appeared— For the second reading . 186 Against it Majority —BB On our admission into the gallery we found Mr. WALLACE on his legs, asking the Hon. Mem ber for Reading (Mr. Russell) whether he had not a direct and separate interest in the Bill?—(Cries of " He is not in the House.") Yes, be is. —(Cries of " Show him up.") So I will.—(Cries of " Order, order.") Sir JAMES GRAHAM—There are strangers in the House. The SPEAKER—Strangers must withdraw. The gallery was then cleared. The gallery was soon afterwards re-opened. We un derstood that while the doors were closed, Mr. WALLACE made an objection to the vote of Mr, on the ground that he was n tr. r C e R e ss s e u l t p l h pe b o er subject.it being d g b t Hee w t a d u s i n a y k e l ; r , . COLLETT, and a short d i scuss i o n ensued, but the Hon. Member for Greenock subsequently withdrew the motion he had made. Mr. HAWES then asked if it was the intention of the Governme nt to modify the Bill at all, or to go into Com mittee with it as it was? Mr. GLADSTONE said he was not only ready but desirous to consider any modification that would bring the Bill into conformity with the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, and with the third report of the Committee. Sir R. PEEL said, that in his speech he was rather referring , to the report than to the technical terms of the Bill. Ile thought the power to purchase ought to be re served to the Government and Parliament conjointly, not to be exercised indiscriminately, but as a check upon the railways. After some further discussion, the Bill was read a se cond time, and ordered to be committed on Saturday next. The Report on the Law Courts (Ireland) compensa tion Bill was brought up and received. TURNPIKE TRUSTS (SOUTH WALES). On the order of the day for the second reading of this Bill, Mr. MORRIS w as understood to oppose the measure. Sir J. GRAHAM said he intended only that the Bill should be read a second time that night, and he pro posed going into Committee upon it on Monday se'nnight. He would be glad to consult the Hon. Gen tleman and other Members connected with South Wales, on the Bill. The Bill was then Mo r day ead se'n a second time, and ordered to be committed on nnight SUDBURY DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL. The report on the Sudbury Disfranchisement Bill was brought up and received. POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL. The Committee o n the Poor-la w Amen dment Bill was postponed till a Q ua rter past Four o' c l oc k this day. LAW COURTS (IRELAND) BILL. The Law Courts (Ireland) Bill passed through Com mittee. The House then resumed, the report was received, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-mor row (this day). BUTTER AND CHEESE BILL. The Butter and Cheese Bill then passed through Com mittee. ACTIONS FOR GAMING DISCONTINUANCE BILL. On the order of the day for bringing up the report on the Actions for (laming Discontinu Ince Bill being read, Mr. CHRISTIE said he would take that, opportu nity of answering an attack which had been made by the Noble Lord the Member for Lyme on an individual who was not present to defend 'himself. The Noble Lord had made an attack of the strongest character against two individuals of the name of Russell, one of whom was a solicitor, and the other the plaintiff in the actions which were now pending, and which this • Bill was intended to discontinue. He had received a letter from Mr. Russell, the solicitor, whose character the Noble Lord had attacked, and he would read some ex tracts from it to the House. He would not read the whole of it, because some parts of it were the reverse of complimentary to the character of the Noble Lord. — (Cries of " Read ! read!") The Noble Lord was at liberty there to say what he pleased of the character of persons out of that House, and he had generously availed himself of that privilege last evening.—(Hear.) But if they said anything against the character of the Noble Lord, that could not be read in that House even by the Noble Lord's permission, without offending against the rules of that House. He would now read to the House the extracts from the letter of Mr. Russell. They were as follow :—" I could never have the assurance to meet either Mr. Gibson or yourself, had there been one syllable of truth in Lord George Bentinck's statements. I will not attempt to defend my brother's conduct in an affair which occurred some years sinee." He had already stated that in his evidence be fore the Committee, " I will not attempt to defend my brother's conduct in an affair which occurred some years since, and through which I might have been ruined, if I had not had the means -of entirely exculpat ing myself to the satisfaction of every person. I should grieve if you or Mr. Gibson, having heard my state ments, should think that any degradation would attach to you in consequence. I said that if you have the evi dence printed every one will be able to Judge if I am de serving of the c haracter which this Lord last night gave of me." —(Hear, hear, and cheers.) He hoped they would have the evidence printed, and printed wholly, without expunging of any portion of it.—(Hear, hear.) He entertained no feeling of degradation from having had interviews with Mr. Russell. Mr. Russell had come to ask him to present a petition, and to afford him information. Even if he had been deserving of the character which the Noble Lord had given him, even if he had been a common hell-keeper, and had said that in that character he had suffered a grievance which the House of Commons could remedy, and had asked him to present a petition, he should have felt it his duty to do so.—(Cheers.) But he would not have associated with a hell-keeper further—(Cheers) —he would not have betted with him.—(Cheers.) He would not have commis sioned him to bet for him.—(Reiterated cheering.) He would not belong to a club of which be was a member. —(Continued cheering.) He had declared his intention of offering every factious opposition to the Bill, and he had afterwards said he would withdraw it ; but the reasons he had given for so doing had not been properly stated. He protested against this Bill ; he protested against the manner in which it had been carried through that House ; he protested against the refusal of the House to hear the plaintiff by counsel against this Bill, in the rejection of which he had the clearest, and the most direct personal interest. If ever a man was entitled to be heard by counsel at the bar of the House, it was this much wronged indivi dual, and it was most unjust that such a boon should be refused him. He complained of the manner in which the evidence had been taken, and of the manner in which that evidence had been used. When that evi dence should be formally communicated to the House, a question, he thought might arise, as to whether that evi dence would not give a proper occasion for a motion rela tive to interference with the privileges of the House. The Bill seriously affected the interests of individuals. A petition had been presented, praying that counsel might be heard against the Bill, but the prayer of the petition had been refused ; and when the petition was presented, the Committee in another place, who suspended its sit tings for some time, had summoned the solicitor before them. A searching investigation was instituted. When the day arrived for hearing counsel the evidence was dis seminated. and the character of the petition was made a reason for refusing to hear it by counsel at the bar of the House. The Chairman of the Committee, whoever he might be—even the Duke of Richmond conspired with Government for promoting the Bill, and abused his position as Chairman of the Committee in another place, and was guilty of an infringement in communicating that evidence. He would leave the public to judge of the circumstances in which the evidence was used ; and he thought the opinion of the public had not been favourable to the promoters of this Bill.—(Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex plained what he said on the previous night. His reason for opposing the hearing of the petition by counsel at the bar of the House was, because, after diligent search of precedents, he could not find one in which an indivi dual was permitted to appear at the bar of that House himself, or by counsel. when legislative interference was merely of a suspensionary character.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. M. GIBSON considered that he had not been fairly reported in the Morning Papers as to what he said on the previous night, and he therefore wished to make a further statement. The Hon. Member, who spoke with considerable excitement of manner, said— If the Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) or any one else, makes a charge against me that I associated with per sons of improper character, or with persons guilty of any crime, I assert in this House that that charge is false and scandalous, and I defy the Noble Lord or any body else to prove it, or to show that there is any founda tion whatever for it. The ,solicitor my Honourable Friend alluded to called at his (Mr. M. Gibson's) house—he came to him in a public capacity. He had felt that ho was entitled to listen to his commu nication and make what use of it he pleased. That he had done, and that he would do again ; and he pro tested, in the face of that House, against being charged, either directly or indirectly, with having associated, in the popular sense, with persons of improper character, and who had committed crimes. Lord PALMERSTON said that having had an op portunity of forming an opinion on the Committee, he felt justified in saying that he thought his Hon. Friends were perfectly justified in the course they had pursued with regard to Mr. Thomas Russell. It appeared to him that a Member of Parliament had, in the performance of his duty, a perfect right to receive information which might be tendered to him whilst pursuing an investigation, and he thought, in fact, that he would not be justified in refusing it. With regard to the point raised by his Hon. and Learned Friend, he could entirely bear out the statement of the Right lion. Gentleman, that the decision of the House yesterday turned, not on any judgment formed respecting the character of Mr. Russell, but on the ground that his case was not parallel to that of Mr. Wright, and that he was not a bona fide prosecutor. But, as far as any reflections on character were concerned, he must submit to the House that yes terday evening was not the first time that doubts had been thrown out on that subject.—(Hear, hear.) Lord HOWICK said he objected to the Bill on the ground that it not only protected persons from actions for past betting, but that it protected persons who should subsequently bet on horse-racing. They were going to legalise betting, or at least to exempt from all penal consequences those who took part in it. And looking at the matter in the light thrown upon it by the recent trial, he thought such a step must be deeply in jurious to the country. He proposed to amend the Bill in the following manner:—ln the preamble he proposed to omit the words, " And that no other proceedings of a like nature should be commenced or proceeded with." He also proposed to omit the first clause, in reference to the period from which the Act was to operate, and that it should continue in force till the end of the next session of Parliament. He called upon the House to go no further than to give protection to those bets which had been made before the Ist of June last. He was no enemy to horse racing, and it was not his wish to interfere with the fair sports of the turf'. But he would give no protection to those who made the turf a system of fraud. He would con clude by moving the amendment of which he had given notice. Lord PALMERSTON said that he could not go at the railroad pace of his Noble Friend. But he hoped that by the next session of Parliament Government would be prepared with a satisfactory measure. It was the opinion of the Committee that it was incon sistent with the spirit of modern legislation to interfere with the private pursuits, private business, or private pleasures of individuals. Butwhat was his Noble Friend's amount to which betting was to be allowed to go? He was for a restriction upon heavy betting on the turf, what then would be his minimum ? Or were they to have a graduated, a sliding scale of turf betting ?—(Hear, and a laugh.) But look to what his Noble Friend's doc trine would lead to in practice. It would end in this—that what was done in secret should be winked at, and that the thunders of the law should be hurled only at those who betted openly.—(Hear, hear.) And, to add to this piece of hypocrisy, they would have other evils and inconveniences; for to work the principle to itsi legitimate end, they must enact a sort of sump tuary law, forbidding any one to give more than a certain price for a horse, or anything he might desire to purchase.—(Hear, hear.) For these and other reasons, he would not, at this late hour, recapitulate. He must oppose the amendment of his Noble Friend, and stand by the Bill as now arranged. That Bill was in tended for the protection of honest men—(Hear, hear) against unjust and extortionate attempts, and he was sure the House would see the justice and the wisdom of passing it! in its present shape.—(Divide.") Mr. BROTHERTON moved the adjournment of the debate. Sir J, GRAHAM, as at present advised, thought the advice tendered by the Committee with respect to horse-racing, was good. He would, therefore, support the Bill. . Lord HOWICK would not divide on the amendments, and they were withdrawn. The Noble Lord then moved that the first clause should be omitted. By such a Bill as this, they threw by stealth protection over gambling of the worst description, while they visited minor gamb ling with the utmost severity. lie, for one, protested against it. He should not divide the House upon it, but he should call upon the House either to adopt or negative his proposition. Lord PALMERSTON explained. The amendment was negatived without a division, the report was received, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow (this day). Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE moved for a Select Committee, to prepare estimates of the:charge of the disembodied militia of Great Britain and Ireland, for the year ending the 31st day of March, 1845: —Sir Thomas Fremantle,lViscount Howick, Viscount Palmer ston, Sir John Hobhouse, Mr. Macaulay, Mr. Ellice, Sir Edward Knatchbull, Mr. Gore Langton, Captain Bol dero, Colonel Peel, Mr. Pringle, Colonel Wood, Mr. Manners Sutton, and all Colonels of Militia.—Agreed to. DOG-STEALING. Mr. LIDDELL moved the following as a Select Com- ljesty 5 een ad .as the am ad' l easure not be H of the a jesty's bought to his he Go i to the ustified ch had certain isent of ;sary t 0 onside' wa s the iterfere )rward, his was n had r Lord' of the he cow r were town to ,venient inst it. :on, and ,ed waa 'out the iyhttrir he o° - ken. et that A N this :d. for al" hey 6tiVe 0 to th e re been ier the °w oe, e Lord , which j r wa s ' pa ying t steps pauper order iord, as to N ever ineellor sure the Id con to meet rythi eady 112 :essary; :o carry livision• I st oget ded to d main 8 upon s pose nediaW t there in ta° >n Pre' at that Ad, at op po' t as °' cries ? svi .prid is 'A 44. mitteee on Dog Stealing (Metropolis) :—Mr. Liddell, Captain Rous, Mr. Kelly, Mr. Henry Berkeley (Bristol), Mr. Beckett Denison, Mr. Vernon Smith, Mr. Fitzroy, Mr. Mackinnon, Sir John Yarde Buller, Major Beres ford, Viscount Barrington, Mr. Montague Gore, Lord Arthur Lennox, Sir Robert Pigot, and Mr. Richard Hodgs L on. Mr. ABOUCHERE thought that too much facility was lately given to granting Committees, but he never thought it would go to the extent to which the Hon. Gentleman was about to carry it.—(Hear. hear.) There was to be a Select Committee to inquire into the steal.. ing of poodles and lapdogs in the metropolis.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He was sorry the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State, had given his assent to the nomination of the Committee. But, perhaps, if he asked the House, it would reverse its decision, as it was not very. obstinate.—(Laughter.) Sir J. GRAHAM—hugged.—(Laughter.) Mr. LABOUCHERE really thought that this Com mittee ought. not to be granted, and he would move, as the only means now left to him, that the first name be omitted.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. LIDDELL said he had no object in the matter. But as he was aware that a well-organised system existed for the stealing of dog, which he would be able to expose if he obtained a Committee, he would persevere in asking for it, unless the House thought othgrwise. Mr. WAKLEY thought that the Committee ought to be made more extensive, and embrace the practice of stealing dogs in the country. The practice of stealing dogs in the country prevailed to a great extent. --They were then sold in the metropolis, where theyLsi*re stolen over and over again, and at_ last_ exportaol i t (Laughter.) This system of trade had not. .prdbAly, c ome under the observation of the Right Hon. GenVeman.'i He hoped the Hon. Member would withdraw his_motion, and move for leave to bring in a Bill. Mr. BROTHER,TON. moved the adjournntgat . of the House, but subsequently withdrew his motion. The House divided on the motion for the appointment of the Committee, when there appeared— .. For the Committee 35 _ Against it • 8, Majority kr the Committee Cir G. CLERK obtained leave to bring in a Bill to continue certain of the allowances of the duty of excise on soap used iu manufactures. Mr. G. W. HOPE obtained leave to bring in a Bill to continue an Act of the 10th Geo. IV., " for providing for the Government of his Majesty's Settlements in Western Australia, on the Western Coast of New Holland." PRESBYTERIAN MARRIAGES (IRELAND) BILL. On' the motion of Sir J. GRAHAM, this Bill was read a first time, and ordered to he read a second time on Thursday. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter to Two. PARLIAMEN TAR Y DIVISIONS. (From Me Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.) THURSDAY, JULY 11. RAILWAYS BILL. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Bill be now read a second time :"—Amendmext proposed, to leave out the word " now," and at the end of the Question to add the words" upon this day six months :" — Q uestion p ut, " That the word now' stand part of the Question :" The House divided : MAJORITY—AYES, 186. Acland, Sir Thomas Eastnor, Viscount Morrison, General A'Court, Captain Egerton •W. Z. Morrison James Adderley, C. B. Eliot, L ord Neville, Ralph Aglionby H. A. Escott, Bichkam Newry, Viscount Aldan+, W. Estcourt, T. G. B. Nicholl, J. Alford, Viscount Fellowes, Edward Paget, F. Allix, Jehn Peter Fitzroy, Hon. H Palmer, R. Archdall, Captain Flower, Sir James Patten, J. W Arkwright, George Forbes ,William Pechell, Captain &tithe, Colonel H. Fox, S. Lane Peel. Sir Robert Balfour, J. 111. Fremantle, Sir T. Peel, Jonathan Baring, W. B. Gaskell, James Milnes Plumptre, J. P. Barneby, J. Gladstone, W. E. Praed, W. T. Bateson, Robert Gordon, Captain Pringle, Alexander Beckett, William Gordon, Hon. W. Pusey, POllip Bentinck, Lord G. Goring, Charles Bowdon, J. D. Blackburre, J. L Goulburn, H. Reid, Sir J. IL Bodkin, W. H. Graham, Sir James Repton, George J. Bolden), Henry G. Greene , Rice, E. R. Batfield, Beriah Grimston„ Lord Rolleston, Colonel Bowles, Admiral Grogan, tAward Round, John Bowring, Dr. Hale, R. Blagdon Rumbold, C. E. Bramston, T. W. Hamilton, Lord C. Rushbrooke,Colonel Brisco, M. Hayes, Sir E. Russell, Lord E. Brocklehurst, J. Heathcoat, John Sanderson, Richard Brooke, Sir A. B. Henley, J. W. Seymour, Lord Brotherton, J. Hepburn, Sir T. B. Seymour, Sir H. B. Browne, W. Herbert, Sydney Sheppard, T. Buck, Lewis W. Hodgson, Frederick Shirley, E. P. Bunbury, Thomas Hope, Charles Sibthorp, Colonel Burroughes, 11. N. Horsman, E. Smith, Abel Campbell, J. H. Howard, Lord Smith, R. Vernon Cavendish, Hon. C. Howard, E. G. Smith,RkHon. T.B. C Cavendish, Hon. G. 1-inwlek, Lord Smyth, Sir U. 1-1 Chelsea, Lord Hussey , Ambrose Somerset, Lord G. Childers, J. W. Ingestre, Lord Sotheron, T. H CholmondeleY, Hugh James, Sir W. C. Stanley, Lord Clay, Sir W Jerrayn, Earl Stuart, Villiers • Clayton, Rice R. Jolliffe, Sir W. Stuart, H. Clerk, Sir George Jones, T. Stock, Sergeant: Clive, Viscount Knatchbull, Sir E. Strutt, Edward Clive, R. H. Knight, Henry Gally Sutton, Henry M. Cockburn, Sir G. Knight, F. W. Tennent, J. E. Codrington, Sir W. Labouchere, H. Thesiger, F. Colborne, W. Ridley Lascelles, W. S. fhorn e Iy , Thomas Cole, Hon.H..A. Law, Hon. C. E. Trotter, John Collett, John Lefroy, Anthony Verner, Colonel Corry, Henry Liddel, H. T. Vesey, Hon. Thomas Cowper. Hon. W. Lockhart, William Vivian, John Ennis Craig, W. Gibson Lvgon, Hon. Gen. Waddington, Harry S Crawford, W. S. M`Geachy, F. A. Wall, B, Cripps, W. Maclean, Donald Wallace, Robert Curteis, H. B. Macnamara, W. Warburton, Henry Darner, Hon. G. M'Neill, Duncan Wawn, J. T. Darby, George Mahon, Viscount Wemyss, Captain Denison, John Evelyn Manners. Lord C. S. Williams, W. Denison, E. Beckett Manners, Lord J. Wodehouse,.Edmone Dickinson, F. H. Marshall, W. Wortley, Hon. Jn. S. Douglas, Sir H. Marshall, W. Wrighston, W. B. Dougla<, Sir C. Marsham, Viscount Yorke, E. 'l. slowdeswell, W. Martin, C. W. TELLERS. Douglas, Sir Howard Meynell, 11. Young. John Duncombe, A. Manes, Richard Lennox, Lord A. MINORITY-NOES, 98. Ackers, James Forman, T. S. Muntz, G. F. Ainsworth, Peter Gardner, J. D. Napier, Sir Charles Bailey, Joseph, Jun, Gibson, T. M. Ogle, S. C. H. Bannerman, A. Gill, Thomas Ord William Barnard. E . Gisborne, Thomas Packe, C. W. Barrington, Viscount Gore, W. Ormsby Parker, J. Berkeley, Captain Greenall, Peter Philips, G. It. Berkeley, H. F. Grosvenor, Lord R. Plumridge, Captain Bernal, Ralph Hallyburton, Lord Fonsonby, C. EA. C Borthwick, Peter Hawes, B. Power, James Bouverie, E. P. Hayter W. G. Protheroe, Edward Bowes Jo h n Hill, Lerd - Marcus Pulsford, Robert Bright, ' John Hinde, J.ll. Rashleigh, Win. tiroadley, H. Hindley, Charles Ricardo, J. L. Buller, C. Hodgson, Richard Richards, Richard t.hapman, Aaron Holland, Robert Russell, Charlbs Chapman. B. Hamby, Jonn Scott, R. Cnarteris, Hon. F. Howard, C. G. W. Seale, Sir J. H. Christie, W. D. Hughes. W. B. Smith, J. Abel Christopher, R A Johnstone, Sir John Somerville, Sir W. Clive, E. B. Langston, H. Stewart, P. M. Cobden, Richard Langton ' W. Gore Talbot, C. R. M. Colebrooke, Sir T. Lemon, Sir C. Tancred, Henry W Colquhoun J. C. Long W a lter Thompson, Ala Dalmeny, Lord Lowther, John H. Tufnell, Henry Dalrymple, Captain Lowther, Colonel Turner, E. D'Eyncourt, C. T. Macaulay, T. B. Villiers, Charles P. Duncan, Lord Myraggart, J. Vivian, J. H. Duncan, George Mangles,i R. D. Wakley. Thomas Dundas, J. C. Martin, John Walker ' R. Easthope, John Mitcalfe, Henry Yorke, R. H. Elphinstone, Howard Mitchell, T. A. TELLERS. • eilden, W. Morris, David Ward, H. G. Forester, Hon. C. W Mundy, E. M. Entwisle, William' DOG-STEALING COMMITTEE. Motion made, and Questiqn put, " That Mr. Liddell be one of the Members of the Select Committee on Dog-Stealing :" The House divided: — MAJORITY—AYES, 35. Baring, Hon W. B Jermyn, Lord Smith, T. B. C. Bentinck, Lcrd a Knight, F. Winn Stanley, Lord Blackburne,llreland Lennox, Lord A. Stuart, H. Buller, 'Sir J. Yarde Lincoln, Earl of Sutton, Hon. H. M Clayton, R. R. Lockhart, William Thesiger, F. Clerk, Si , George M'Neill, Duncan Trench, Sir F. Cripps, W. Marsham, Viscount Waddington, H. S. Fremantle, Sir T. Martin, C. W J Wakley Thomas , Goulburn, Henry O'Connell, M. J. Young, ohn Graham, Sir James Peel, Jonathan Greene, 'l'. Power, James TELLERS. Hale, Robert B. Pringle, A. Liddell, H. T. Herbert, Hon. S. Rushbrooke, Colonel Douglas, Sir C. E. MINORITY—NOES, 8. Archbold, Robert Hussey, Ambrose TELLERC Brotherton, J. Palmerston, Vis. Howick, Viscount Escott, Bickham Seymour, Lord Labouchere, H. Hawes, B. Wawn, John T. SIGHT AND HEARING TESTIMONIALS, 39, ALBEMARLE-STREET, PICCADILLY. Genera . Browne Clayton feels desirous to express the comfor and advantage he has derived at his advanced age of 70 years, and after two years' trial, from the use of Messrs. S. and B. Solomons newly invented Spectacles. Their valuable inventions fully merit the patronage they have received. Address, Adlington-hall, Lancashire. Major-General Sir Howard Elphinstone begs to say that the Spectacles he has now had some time in use, have fully redeemed the assurance of the Messrs. S. and B. Solomons as to their excellence, and having found so much comfort and advantage from their use, far prefer able to every other kind of glasses. 13, Norfolk-street, Park•lane.—The Hon. George Cavendish, to Messrs. S. and B. Solomons, 39, Albemarle-street, Piccadilly, op posite the York Hotel. Gentlemen, I approve very much of the Spectacles I purchased from you ; I have made use of glasses for many years, and never met with any to enable me to see equal to yours, and with less incon venience to my eyes. Yours obediently, G. Cavendish Leixlip Castle, Ireland.—lmproved Achromatic Teles copes, Opera Glasses, Microscopes, &c., of the same kind of lenses, to surpass any ever yet invented.—The Messrs. S. and B. Solomons' Invincible Op erator Voice Conductor, Sound Magnifiers for dea f p ersons, give im mediate relief to old standing extreme cases of d.eaf ness.—Caution. Messrs. S. and B. Solomon's; Qptierens and Aurists, are not in any way connected Alt:a-person. of the same name in their immediate neighlAyhood. Nor in any part of the country. To prevent mistakes, be cautious and observe—only to be had at 39, Albe marle-street, Piccadilly, opposite the York Hotel. , WILSON'S SCOTTISH ENTERTAINAIENTS.-- I hese de lightful and interesting e ntertainments are drawing to a close for the season, for w e perceive that Mr. Wilson has ann ounced next Monday as his last evening in the Music-hall, Store-street, and next Wednesday as his last morning in the Hanover-square Rooms. It is no small tribute to the talent of Mr. Wilson, that, notwithstand ing the numerous imitators that his unparalleled success has called forth, he alone has kept his ground, while they have all dwindled off by degrees. On Wednesday he gave his entert ainment entitled "Jacobite Relics," in the Hanover-square Rooms, which were, as usual, graced with the elite of the fashionable world, among whom we ob served the Gallant Veteran, Sir G. Murray,who seemed to enjoy amazingly the Minstrel's discoursing of the songs o f the Jacobites. Next Monday will be a great night at Store-street, for, besides its being the concluding night of the season, Wilson has collected many of the favourite songs he has rendered popular, and also the celebrated scene from Fr a Dia volo, which he was wont to !nakeso effective on another arena. We perceive that Wilso i n s to be present at the approaching Burns' Fes tival on " the Banks o' the Doan." It would scarce be complete without him, seeing that he has done more to tnake the songs of Burns familiar, at least to Southern ears, than any other man that ever lived. He is about to take a trip to Paris, where he will, no doubt, be hailed with enthusiasm. A salmon, weighing 42 lbs., and 4 feet in length, was caught in the Severn last week, by Mr Trntman, of Oldbury. LAW INTELLIGENCE. COURT OF BANKRUPTCY, July 11. (Before Commissioner Sir C. F. WILLIAMS.) EXTRAORDLNARY FRAUDS.—WILLIAM BROMLEY'S BANKRUPTCY. The bankrupt carried on business as a solicitor iu Gray's Inn, and has been frequently before the court. He this day appeared to pass his final adjourned examination, and the court was crowded to excess with the suffering victims of his fraudulent breaches of trust. The Right Honourable Dr. Lushington, and the Rev. Archdeacon Brynier (of Bath), were present on the bench, they having in their capacity of co-trustees with the bank rupt, in re Wilkinson, been defrauded of no less a sum than 29,0001. Mr. Clarkson attended on the part of Archdeacon Brymer and Dr. Lushington ; Mr. Humphrey for the assignees ; and Mr. Sturgeon for the bankrupt. The debts and liabilities amount, in round numbers, to about 140,0004 principally through breaches of trust, and some of them appeared to have extended as far back as 1824, but the bankrupt still continues to state that he has large available securities and bills of costs in various settled and un settled suits, but which the derangemen t p roduced by his difficulties had hitherto prevented his making out, a'llr therefore, not enabling the official assignee to value them f Mr. CLARKSON said that he had the honour of appea a or the Venerable Archdeacon of Bath, the Rev. Dr. firye.sl nd also for Dr. Lushington, who were now creditors for tt sum of 29,0001., and who had to complain that this amount, rather the greater portion of it, was unsecured, notwithstand ing the repeated assurances of the bankrupt, by letter and otherwise, that it wag not upon good security; and the in.- tsfist, therefore, having been paid up to the period of the . t 4 i; they were lulled into a false security. Most of the sums c omposing this 29,0001. had originally been out upon good security, wii!ch, however, being subsequently released, the bankrupt had applied to his own purposes, instead of lending it upon mortgage, as lie had induced his co - trustees to be lieve that he had ayne. At the time of the death of the tes tator (Mr. Wilkinson) the bankrupt was indebted to that gentleman in the sum of 9,009/., and for which he deposited at the testator's bankers (Messrs. Childes) in a tin box, the deeds of two estates at Kensington and Clapton as security fur, that amount. This tin box, however, he had shortly after obtained from the bankers by fraudulent representa tions, and under the promise of its being returned. This was never done, and the result showed that these estates were sold by the bankrupt, and that the trustees had no other security than the bankrupt's bond. The Learned .Counsel here entered into a lengthened detail upon the various items of this amount, and the mode in which the bankrupt had dealt with them, and upon the part especially of Mr. Bel lenden Ker (a most respectable conveyancer), whose name had been stated by the bankrupt to his co-trustees as having borrowed 3,000/., whereas, in point of fact, he now :sad in his harid the affidavit of Mr. Ker, denying in the most ressi tive terms that he had ever borrowed any such sum. Sir C. F. WILLIAMS—Does the bankrupt's balance-sheet give any intimation of these dreadful facts? The official assignee (Mr. Turquand)—None, Sir—none. Sir C WiLustars--Why, then, it is a complete blank. Mr. CLARKSON—The balance-sheet gives no dates, and upon that fact alone he could not be now permitted to pass his last examination. The Learned Counsel then read a letter addressed by the bankrupt to Archdeacon Brymer, giving an account of how the moneys were invested, the greater part of which had turned out to be untrue. He pre tended to have effected mortgages with parties, including names of the highest respectability; but instead of doing so, he received the moneys as they were paid off, and made use of it himself. The Learned Counsel recapitulated a long list of names, and the particulars of mortgages said to have been, concluded. After a few words of objection from Mr. Sturgeon as to the intended examination of the bankrupt, who did not at pre sent ask for his certificate, the bankrupt was then called, when Mr. HU3IPIIREY said—l appear, Sir, on the behalf of the assignees, and bad and sorrowful as the case may be which has been brought before your Honour's attention by my Learned Friend Mr. Clarkson, it is only one out of twenty three cases which I represent, and each one of which I un. dertake to prove to the satisfaction of every reasonable being to be cases in which the most heartless frauds have been per petrated by the bankrupt, amounting in the whole to no less a sum than 92,000/. There is one unfortunate person whom the bankrupt has defrauded of 3,0001. so far back as the year 1824, when the money was depos ited in his hands to place out aeon good security, and as the interest was regularly paid up to the time of the fiat, the contrary was not known; but in consequence of their being no security this poor lady last week received parish relief, and she is now about retiring to the workhouse.—(Sensation.) There is also, your Honour, a person now in Court whose mother had been pillaged in an amount of 8,000/. in like manner, and this lady had a few days since been obliged to sell articles of furniture in order to pay her rent.—(Several voices, " Shock ing.") The assignees feel it their unavoidable duty to go fully into these cases, which will show a degree of heartless ness unequalled in any case brought before a court of justice. To the extent of 92,000/. I shall be able to prove fraud as bad, or worse, than the case which my Learned Friend has just stated, and the desire of the assignees is to show to the world the extent of these terrible frauds. I have the representa tive, now sitting by my side, of a lady who deposited 25,000/. in the hands of the bankrupt, to be advanced upon security, the whole of which is lost, although a statement had been sent by the bankrupt to her, in which the time, ciesumstance, and place of the various securities in which her money had been placed was detailed, the whole of which statement pow appears to be a fabrication from beginning to end. The bankrupt was here sworn, and examined by Mrs CLanissosr—The letters referred to, and addressed to Dr. Lushington, are in my handwriting, but before I answer fur ther questions, I merely wish to state, that when this unfor tunate occurrence took place I wrote to Mr. Lewis, offering to give him every information that he required. Ido not attempt to deny that I have acted improperly, but in moat instances there are circumstances of great palliation. After having given every information, am I bound to psoceed in answering? The Court intimated that he was bound to answer every' question put to him by his creditors. Examination resumed—l was acquainted with Mr. Wil kinson, who, I believe, died in 1827, and Archdeacon Brymer, Dr. Lushington and myself were co-executors under his will. At the time of his death, I believe, there was a mortgage of 3,500/. on the property of a person named Clubb, which was afterwards released by Dr. Lushington in order to release it in the name of R. G. Troughton. Mr. CLARK,SON—What didyou do with the 3,500/. ?—I cane not recollect. Was it advanced to Mr. Troughton ?—lt was not. It went into my general fund. [Here the bankrupt, who appeared in a very weak state, burst into tears]. Mr. CistnissoN—Do you mean by that answer that yea applied it to your own purposes ?—Yes, before Dr. Lush ington released Clubb's mortgage the interest was paid into the Bank in the name of Clubb, and after that date, and up to the fiat, it was paid in the name of Troughton. What was your object in keeping up the payments of inte rest in the name of Troughton when that gentleman had nothing to do with it ? The bankrupt (in tears) —It ought not to have been done. Sir Cs F. WILLIAMS—YOU need not press for an answer to that question, Mr. Clarkson; the reason is almost obvious. Mr. CLARKSON—Now, in reference to Park's mortgage of 3,0001., is the letter dated the 16th of September, in which you state that the money is to be lent on an estate in Mid dlesex and Hampshire, to pay interest 4i per cent. ? The bankrupt—lt is my writing. The money never was advanced to him. The same course as to payment of interest was pur sued as in the case of Troughton. Mr. CLARKSON—Now, as to Fry's mortgage of 3,5001.? The bankrupt—There was a 'mortgage of 3,500/. to Mr. Fry, which was also released, and supposed by Dr. Brymer to have been secured upon another estate in the same name. I paid the interest up to the time of the fiat, but it was never transferred to any estate in Hampshire, or anywhere else. The money has gone into my general funds, but not for my necessaries. I have no doubt but that at the time there was some contemplated security, though I admit it was never completed. Mr. CLARKSON—Was there any title approved of by Mr. H. B Ker, as you stated in your letter to Dr. Lushington ? I have no doubt but there was, but ib is so long since that I cannot say. I never told the trustees that the transslg was not completed,. The bankrupt was next examined with reference to the transfer of a mortgage of 4,0001. Ito a Mr. J. P. Burnaid, when it appeared that the transfer of that particular sum had never been made, although Barnard (as stated by the bankrupt) was then indebted to him in a larger sum. This sum had gone in the same manner (i. e., been made away with) as all the others, although he had paid interest into the bank in Burnard's name. In respect of the bankrupt's obtaining the tin box from Messrs. Childes, he stated that Mr. Wilkinson had allowed him the use of the 9,0001., and that he had deposited the deeds of his Kensington and Clapton estates with them as security. The box was after wards obtained from them by letter from me, and I never returned it. I believe I did not ask the executors for leave to remove it. (In much agitation)—l can 'say no more. Mr. CLaiussox—Have these gentlemen any security for the sums of 17,0001. and 9,000/. ?—None whatever. By Mr. HUMPHREY—I was concerned for Mrs. Blair, who died in 1841. Were there any securities given for her money ?—Theis were securities in nearly every instance. Was theme ever such a deed as Fry's in existence fur 2,3004, and that it was ever executed ?-1 believe there was, but I do not recollect. Fry was a timber merchant, and now lives at St. John's-wood. His name is William Fry. I will not swear I had securities for that money, but by a reference to certain papers I should be able to explain all this. The greater portion of Mrs. Blair's 6,0001. was paid use off. went Did you not appropriate it to your ow ?—lt into my own accounts. That is, you misappropriated it, as you did all the other moneys ?—Yes, it was so. Did you not represent to Mrs. Blair that all this money' was advanced to Mrs. Seabrook ?—lt was so stated, I be lieve, and 4,500/. was, I admit, out of that money, appro priated to my own use. I was concerned for a person of the name of Trott, in which a sum of 3,250/. was absorbed, and in consequence of which one of the co-legatees was now cows pelted to seek shelter in a union workhouse. Mr. timeliness—The representatives of Captain Blair lost upwards of 15,758/., and on the part of all the other sufferers. it would be unnecessary for him to repeat a tale of such gross and fraudulent circumstances. Sir C. F. WiLuAtis—This is not an every day case, and the bankrupt should have time to explain. Mr. HustennEr—We have no objection to delay in favour of the bankrupt, and we shall furnish him with a list of all the cases which we charge against him to have been of a most fraudulent character. Mr. STURGEON—The case, Sir, is very complicated — Sir C. F. Wriaaatis—Why, Sir, it is one, unfortunately,OC the clearest cases of fraud that ever came before the Court. Mr. HUMPHREY suggested an adjournment of the case to Monday next. A long conversation here took place, in the course of which The bankrupt said, he was ready to give his creditors every information. He had never denied his unfortunate situation—he knew he could not ; all he could do was to throw himself on the kind consideration of those whom he had injured. It was eventually agreed by all parties that a short at. journment should take place to hear anything the bankrupt might wish to say in palliation or explanation, and subs& quently receive the judgment of the Court on his last eX.as' urination. ADVERTISEMENT.—A MAN'S HAND SMASHED Br MACHINERY CURED BY HOLLOWAY'S OINTMENT AN/11 PlLLS.—James Watkin, an engineer, residing in Castle. street, Borough, had his hand and wrist broken by a, steam-engine, was eight months at the hospital, where they proposed to amputate- it, which the patient would, not submit to. Several pieces of bone cattle away. be. sides the formation of three abscesses on the back of the hand. The wrist was perfectly useless, as likewise the elbow joint, which had become quite contracted. IM this deplorable state he commenced the use of these ex. traordinary medicines, which effected a perfect cure in about nine weeks. Sold at Professor Holloway's Est*. blishment, 244, Strand (where advice may be hell gratis), and by almost all vendors of medicine through. out the civilised world.