The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

_..~ trproduce social disorganization in that unfortunate coun y. Soon afterwards those _tithe proctors were mur dered near the very spot where the rencontre took place, and their bodies were removed to an outhouse attached to the clergyman's dwelling, and he (Captain Layard) w,as sent on d e t ac h ment to protect him. He saw the Zergyraan walking ab ou t hi s groun d s w i t h a p i sto l in hi s and, and escorted by a policeman armed with a loaded carbi ne. In that parish there were not six Pro tefants, and no _church for upwards of one hundred tr. Was not that enough to engender a ~ feeling _in. the country ? He had seen thousands fall in the field of battle, but he felt truly sorry that the s „ m „ U glater of those men was a blot upon the escutcheon Pl"` Ells country. Notwithstanding the great delay which :eeeded the Catholic emancipation, the Catholic people C ' Ireland believed that they were to be placed on the footin g w t rialse Protestant brethren, but the ate disastrous for by no other name than dis ac3treus could he style them, had fully proved that teralllegie emancipation was little better than a dead leht li• The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for t e cli ne T, liepartment had stated that no Coercion ß ill to ' n u i Id be required for Ireland. In alluding to the next wise should disclaim all eA tt intention of personal feeling n to give o ff ence t o t h e Right Hon. Gentleman u nrney,Gen era l f or I re l an d, b ut st ill h e felt it his ti t , l n3' to say that th e course w hi c h h e pursue d i n t h e l ate p u was one which brought the law into great disre httee, and was one w hi ch bore i ts own fruits. At t he eon trial iLi at the Old B a il ey o f Lieutenant Grant _ hi s _ hi s c ue PPealed to the jury whether they would find Irela n d t guY ilta fter the Attorney-General of Cr o — elleof the first law officers of the Grant (c in that c oun t r y h a d d one th e same . a Ptain Layard) would ask the Rollie if Lieutenant all h e h ad not an excuse to p lead, which could not at a llowed in extenuation of the conduct of the Ati n 4 ° ll . Gentlem an w h o sa t o pp os it e t o h im . (Th e Iligh-q-General for Ireland). He agreed with the nien t. ,o 4 . Baronet the Secretary for the Home Depart wider .e_at..no benefit could arise from keeping Ireland shor,tstand.' can m ili tary rule—" a house divided against itself Could they suppose that a people who tern their own self-command by the adoption of the rights ace movement, were not entitled to equ al °lde t r s ' and a People who proved their love of peace and th they met i n h un d re d s of th ousa nd s w ith ou t fai e • "'latest brea c h o f th e p eace , an d h e s h ou ld go ther and say e ven o f goo d manners , were t o b e • g.?•• jas rli r ed 1 1 marti a l l aw ? He called upon them to d• tro 'tee to that country, which they had so long and so ' quiltmisguided and neglected. If they did so, tran tiezio7l, would be restored, a ff ection for the British con iur" would be increased—there would be a union of s--the condition of Ireland would be permanently tiD o '„ l. 7.ed—the flag of commerce would once more float her coast--the palaces of the nobility would be lui .e rted from receptacles of mendieancy into abodes of l lati -J-4 nd God would bless the country and those who übettered the condition of her people.—(Cheers.) orate I'EBRAND began by saying he would demon lead: to the House, even from the speeches of the 6 t -i1 f .,,0f the. Irish agitation,. that the Whigs were no t d me n u tit"ievern Ireland as the Conservatives. He ha duty last session to vote against the Govern lied n ot the Irish question, and he did so because they egitilet taken proper steps to put down this disgraceful liticl% ti .Tt., Since then the majesty of the law had been eou v l i e - 7; - ta, and the conspirators had been brought to the During the whole speech of the Noble Lord to h e rgher for the. City of. London, his object seem e d . t itn to bring the laws of this country into con opp l ,;!', What the course pursued by Hon. Gentlemen ki a ;' t ,e, when" a convicted conspirator entered the Posit-ie'--(lronical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Op- Ile D Ie) Was he not cheered and welcomed by a small l lstr n , e an party opposite.—(Laughter.) The Whigs 11 04 — Dower in that House, nor in the country. The _ealitoriaild well Member for Cork seemed to be part- Y well received by the Hon. Member for Montrose, aou s hiniself pro ve d t o b e carr yi ng on a t reasona bl e Pirii - ,; r acY with th e C ana di ans — t h e y were congenial 4, orers t Jitenewed laughter.) He had heard the Noble ak`,"' u f , r ,c l J. Russell) lay a great stress upon the is ugh the procl a mati on by th e p resen t Government, er eof Government, Noble L or d did not d eny b ut the meetings ti 'tad oo s a dangerous te n d e n c y. H ow m any p roc i ama. Nob, Rail G rey ' s Government issued, of which the liews4 Lo rd was a mem b er ? U pon re f erence to the AllpiPkPers of t h at date, he found that the Marquis of iss t L e3 e3', the then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, bad Or ti l 7 a p r oclamation for the prevention of a procession inte ly e Trades' Unions in Dublin. Only one clear day ;vas ; t e net' between the day on which the proclamation nav e l s ted, and that on which the procession was to arr ie --ell Place. , The present Government had been kbl e s tli called upon, by a large number of the peace the respectable inhabitants of Ireland, to interfere. did I l e ease of Lord Anglesey's proclamation, what kit Connell do ? He advised the people to sub litt„ Proclamation, but immediately established was i s " klub, or Association. A second proclamation I t t le Xt? suesti l ,,suppressi ng this new Association. Wha t . these7 n 3 7, Mr. O'Connell and his adherents met in ' , eta A third proclamation was issued, and s a _ tio4:eetnigs too were prevented. Another Associa htti44B. g ot up, and a fourth proclamation was issued, ls4g It down. M r. O ' Connell called these proclama li 4l gerine A cts, and then public breakfasts were Eby tted for the s ame purpose, b ut these , vere disposed e, w,° m agistrates. What did th e ag itat ors d o nex t ? tiele; "eelared they would not use any exciseable ar -0)00,; and, a t a meeting of St. Thomas's parish, Mr. R 11404411 and the lion. and Learned Member for Dun tiele, declar e d t h ey would not use any exciseable ar c COnu un declared these proclamations were withdrawn. Mr. i _said he would breakfast on bread and milk. th e 14 14- g"-) He supposed the Right Hon. Gentleman . the ei llber for Dungarvon would address the House in P,ell e t;t se of the debate. What did that Right Hon. -4 e sai ( f" say at the meeting of St. Thomas's parish ? l 'eht o r "leas the union was repealed he would . not pay entl tale s- They might distrain, said the Right Hon. alrian at the but who would buy? Me would not tell any ught Il i o li n e . ni G e e e n ti t n ie g m. : an o , follow his advice, but, said . the " So help me God, if I -don't ttrrand win .$ll-I °w my silk gown." (Mr. til)wondered if the Right Hon. Gentleman had itth....!co:zinual fee for his silk gown. -ti M.ErenE thter.) h is has swallowed it.—(Great pp l - 1 , 10 „ 'ne ti; -- '"A-D l D—ln a few years after, notwithstand- ' I ,__ aleise vehement declarations, the Right Hon: Gen iloletsii who had accepted office, and acted in conjunction with Pledged themselves to resist repeal even utvord.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) ealirreswag' aeon after the issuing of these pro ted, and bound over to take his trial. thsir Wh igs allowed the trial to drop, and he became tai it most strenuous supporter. Mr. O'Connell lately weuld.prefer the Whigs to the Tories; but what tt pion daliuring Lord Grey's Administration, in a ter. , as h e t ermed it, addressed to the people G:11 14 in en 832, aft er t h e a ff a i r at Wallstown, to which a tt d the ,r opposite had alluded, in which he ga aeserved to be impeached, and that more p re b vi l e ° o (l had been shed in Ireland by them during tile? - merlt th Us year and a half of Lord Grey's Govern -4,4 during the t nty years preceding of Tory 1,1415 t r ' he history of 'gig - rule, he said, had been a s of blood . He said - that Lord Strafford had not ht he h and blood in Ireland as Lord Anglesey, and 1144 fu rther expiated his erne . on the scaffold. After tvi, League er abuse of Mr e .1 0'Connell, the Anti-Corn -144 Lord Gre y • the Hon. Member said O'Connell had decl ared, in one of his procla 'eaten:, that Lord Grey was a childish old man, who 11 . 1i4 tha lt , lei t he most insane hatred . against Ireland. He -uord Grey fae,• °Ppr e , • had only two ideas, that of hating 4: 11 Y, wh o s ltig• Ireland, and providing for his own )4 11 - ke tbe were a cruel infliction on this country. The , .pt e r then read a sec ond time the assage of In t o e ntlell's 1 r eferrin g ant to the people of Ir eland s Prod``° Ws a :3' , and applied it to Mr. O'Connell himself, tr,ed fur infliction on his country, and had well x t nls own family —his principal object seemed tare ° ; tee own „ liakeup fierce hatred between Protestants entered /I „ C atholics 2 _which, were it not for him, would A s izao'lnee, subsided. The Hon. Member then th: l3e iati ot le ng z defenee of the Protestant Operative faith • That body had been censured for calling helc'lsil7noa: Catholic religion a false and idolatrous il o , te f did he would ask what other assumption or ~( O ttia ll Oath ap ancient .egislate upon than that the Isi (Le religion was false and idolatrous?— kay e ;"-Tu th e o, n o , from the Opposition benches.) . He th e I , I CO3 „assertion, though - Hon. Members might id°lrete stair The Goiernment was bound to support h t Otty . IT : religion; and to prevent the extension . of kid i d elatry ? w *hat *as the Roman Catholic religion net sat , _ --(Cries of "No no.") Hon. Members t Port ; but he kneW that ' the Government must ketordi' Protestant religion, and that they could Ike d in g to the principles of the Constitution, In e st 1, 0 atholic reli • rd th gion on an equality with it. The co li a d _ Q Member for the City of London bad tr tt Cte rs. glee of that House, and even of his former ~nehiet, an4ane present motion had completely pros elivneal 0 he cMr•Ferrand) would give it his most Iyh o OO ntlo c i or ) Z2sition . thi 4 h ad - j u t ' 3 APIER said, that the Hon. Gentleman sat down had, as usual, talked about all ,e red th Is n,. Bill RePeal, Algerine Acts, and he li o ttltle y e . e% Member had not touched upon the )v k Onio n. anus enlber -,---(Laughter.) He did not think the 4 4 . h e 163 11 . v ‘ as justified in saying Mr. O'Connell hi3Orioura',,ue ha given up his lucrative practice in Te asi ged rneae Profession, of which he was a distin -1'1414°,41 prZ el. ; he had sacrificed-all his brilliant pr?- •P o r d er e etsi and the immediate welfare of his or td benefit the kelt, his countrv.— k ea , Pi e ' , Per had spoken of Mr. O'Connell's abuse t ent gs, but LA °vett he had not mentioned his abuse of the t thi a lo om ear.) l'ato °us e nu; _, le-t Mr. She ll walked across the floor of lni 4:',"1110 dialogue and took his seat beside Mr. Per gh er,7l7edrizewhtt surprised at the . occurrence. f ,roia s `e roi a Zortion of which was in a rather e ntl s hown ee ' rhe Hon. Member for Knares- Th er uan, an . several document s to t h e Ri g h t H on . ex 13(411 Members left the house together.] e th e ANT Corp„ Poo l e ER continued—He could hardly ( leet t °eut 1,1) °f I reland for t he n p la re a s ( eg i t r illit p at e i e o l n ) and Itiidared it I t l le 'light Hon. Genteler had ek 4t so i t I:.4,.that Ireland was his chief di ffi culty as 1% 1 ,7 ln 1844, and the difficulty would PrO thos e m the Hon. Gentlemen opposite were k2eut Gov "ales. fie did not find fault with .the If _ until t ' il 4 ed he t v h n o L o f(, 1 41‘ putting down the monster the eY had a s gin It was wise in deferring doing t k inst det ernf ufficient force to enforce authority. 'e thei r b a ine d to govern Ireland by force they went t t o o be a rine e i o f n . et s in readiness. The pensioners folloN e u it Neu the intention of the Govern quo.'nment h ad ' ) the course they had be n. The i) lv iihtitin4.n.444, l ln ri dwi„beyarwould itoe?_dautede_.e.m:rh,eorhstef.eaur:wisely in bringing the Cork If they t o trialsenthim V t a e t Si r „Ink su c h ay Ireland ?—(llear, hear.) He ° Vier " en urse ) was oe _ might be dangerous and he , ° P i nion that the present Govern- ' ment would not have sentence passed upon him, but would allow the judgment to hang over his head. He hoped the House would not suppose for a moment that he meant to advocate the cause of repeal ; he was its most strenuous opponent, and every man in England would, he felt assured, take up arms, if it was necessary, to prevent its being carried into effeet--(llear, hear.) It would be throwing Ireland into the arms of France. But if O'Connell were sent to prison what would be the consequence ? Would not he still retain his influence over the priests ? Would.not the priests exercise their power over their flocks ? The people of Ireland might remain passive, but what if they did not pay rent or taxes ? Thousands might be ejected for rent, but they could not eject millions. Then, in case of war with France or America, how would this country be situated ?—(Hear, hear.) He remembered the last war—when, even with our supe rior fleet, French vessels reached Ireland. Now there were war steamers, and with a disaffected people, it would be almost impossible to prevent France from making an impression upon Ireland. He did not believe that at the present moment the Irish were disloyal ; but if they were treated in the manner they had been, their loyal feelings would be entirely alienated.—(Hear, hear.) It might be said that it was imprudent to men tion those things, but was it not better to mention them in times of peace, when remedies could be applied than in time of war, when it would be too late.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the Noble Lord, the Member for the City of London, had made a very moderate speech, and he thought the proposal for doubling the grant to May nooth College very reasonable and very proper. He further agreed with the Noble Lord in thinking that the Catholic hierarchy ought to be acknowledged by their titles, and that Government should ordain the mi nisters of that Church. The Hon. Member's dislike to the Roman Catholics reminded him that he had been in Scotland some time ago on a visit with some friends of his. They were- elderly ladies—(Laughter)—in short, they were old maids.—(Renewed laughter.) He asked them their opinions of the Catholics and the Episcopa lians, and they said it was impossible the Catholics could be saved, and even of the Episcopalians they had great doubts.—(Alaugh.) He would read some lines from an old book, which he had copied for the purpose of reading to that House : _ " They cried the mass down, 'cause (they said) The priest in unknown language prayed. And yet themselves their prayer-book sent To such as knew not what it meant ; And it was read, and psalms were sung, And sermons preached in English tongue, Among wild Irish, when not one Knew what they said, but cried 0 hone!' '0 hone !' they cried, and shook their head With grief, to change their mass and bead • For what they knew to be a prayer No more, poor souls ! than Banks's mare." (The Gallant Commodore proceeded to narrate an anecdote about Banks's mare and the six-and fourpenny stallion, amid the laughter of the House.) That was not so liberal as the Right Hon. Baronet, because he gave his bull for nothing.—(Roars of laugh ter.) He (Sir Charles Napier), however, did not think' that such a bull would satisfy Ireland.=(Continued laughter.) The Noble Lord the Member for Sunder land had supposed the case of England being smaller than Ireland, and that Ireland had, with a large force, conquered England, and 'established in this country the Catholic religion. Now this was the position in which Ireland was now placed. There was no possibility of Ireland conquering England ; but he (Sir C. Napier) would suppose a case that was perfectly possible. Let them suppose that Bonaparte, when he had an enor mous army at Boulogne, of two or three hundred thou' sand men, witlfan enormous flotilla, which, for some time, had bewildered our fleet in such a manner that, if the French Emperor had had a further force of forty six sail of the line, he could have proceeded up the Channel. Now let them, under these circumstances, sup pose that Napoleon had conquered England, and after wards that he had been unwise enough to have brought over with him French parsons, and that he had turned all the clergy out of their different livings, and the bishops out of their dioceses, and had directed the new clergy to preach in a language the people of this country did not understand—he (Sir.C. Napier) asked whether this country, under these circumstances, would have remained long quiet?—(Hear, hear.) He thought they would not have been long before they had made some effort to drive the French out of England. So with the Irish. They were now attempting to drive the English parsons out of their country. The Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, in his speech, went further than the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir C. Napier) thought he was right in doing so.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord, in the first place, wished the whole Protes tant Establishment of Ireland to be turned over to the Catholics. He (Sir C. Napier) could not go quite so far as that, but he quite concurred in another proposition of the Noble Lord, which was, that the Catholics should have a portion of the proceeds of the Protestant Esta blishment, which, in point of fact, was the same propo sition as that which had been made by the Hon. Mem ber for Sheffield. The Noble Lord proposed that the Catholics of Ireland should have a portion of the tithes collected in that country, and he (Sir C. Napier) thought it was but a reasonable proposition, and ought to be en tertained. Another proposition with respect to this sub ject was, that the Establishment in Ireland should be abolished, and the proceeds given for the purposes of education. Who would be injured if the Establishment in Ireland were abolished, and how great would be the benefit if the proceeds were given towards the education of all classes of the community ? He, however, was afraid that the nation at large would not take this view of the case.—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial beaches.) They would not be• prepared for it.—(Hear, hear.) In order, therefore, to prepare them for it, the Government should make a beginning. The Govermitent ought to show a willingness to do justice • to. the • people of Ireland, and the nation .would soon . follow them.—(Hear, and cheers.) This was what they must come to at last. How was Catholic emancipation • obtained •? It was a kind of " Thank you for. nothing."—(Laughter.) It was re sisted as long as possible and yet, at last, the Right Hon. Zaronet—much to his credit, it was true—brought forward the Measure.; but then it was only a " Thank you for nothing" affair.— (Laughter.) Justice for Ireland would be conceded; but not until it was taken, as Ca enuin6pition had,. been taken, as a kind of " Thank you for nothing." The Church in Ireland, as at present constituted, .could never be maintained. Sooner or later the Right Hon. Baronet must come for ward with some measure of conciliation, and the sooner he did so, the happier would be the people of the country at large. —Now he (Sir C. Napier) had a plan to pro pose, which was simply this-that whenever a living in Ireland became vacant, instead of appointing another person, the proceeds of the living should go to the Treasury, to be applied .to the purposes of education. It was inconsistent with common sense that a parish' in which the number of Protestants was so few that the clergyman was obliged to preach to his clerk and two or three others—it was inconsistent with. common sense that, under these circumstances, a' clergyman should.be appointed with a large ,salary. The IsToble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies had said that the Catholics would not accept a portion of the proceeds of the Pro testant Establishment, even cif it were offered to them. Why, did not that show the greatest moderation on the part of the Catholics ? Did it not show that they did not wish to rob the Church 'it all.?. But they at the same time -wished to be placed in the same position as the Protestants. It bad been said that the tithes in Ireland had been commuted, and that the 'land lords were the parties who paid the tithes. Who was it, hi would ask, that paid the landlord ? Suppose the landlord had two farms on his estate ; one he let to a Protestant and the other to a Catholic tenant—the Pro testant had a church found for him, but the Catholic was obliged to pay for his.—(Hear, hear.) It was contrary to common sense to suppose that the Catholic could cope with his neighbour the Protestant. He (Sir C. Napier) would just relate an anecdote bearing upon this subject. He was going on the road to Cork, in a common fly, and he met a very decent-looking young lady— (Laughter)—he saw that she was a decent and respec table-looking girl.—(Continued laughter.) This was no joke. He said to the young girl, " I suppose you are all the better now the tithes are commuted, and the proprietors pay all the tithes ?" She said, with the utmost naivete, Do you see that man working? He has got a bit of garden for which he is obliged to pay tithes to the Protestant clergyman, who he thinks is sending his soul to the devil, and he is obliged to pay to the Ca tholic priests to prevent his going there."—(Laughter.) What did this show, but that the Catholic, in point of faith had to pay two tithes ? The Noble Lord, the Se cretaryfor,the Colonies, in the course of his speech the other night, read in the most solemn manner, the oath which was taken by the Catholic Members of, that House. He (Sir Charles Napier) could not help say ing, that this was an insult to the Catholic Members of that House.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, after that, inquired, if it was proposed to send the Catholic Bishops into the House of Lords, because unless they died, he said, there could be no equalisation. His (F., , ir C. Napier's) answer to that was, that he would send no more Bishops into the House of Lords, because there were too many there already.—(Laughter.) He would not say whether he would wish to see those out srho were in at present. He would ask the Noble Lard whether he would continue to pay a Protestant clergy man a large salary, where there was no congregation ? Could there be a more unjust thing than that ? He looked upon the idea as absurd. They had for the last 300 years been endeavouring! to make all the people of Ireland Protestants, but they Mad not succeeded, and he thought that everybody must :see that such an attempt could never succeed. Let the Right Hon. Baronet and his colleagues come forward with some comprehensive measure with regard to Ire land.. Much had been said about social rights in that country, but these were not the only rights they had to consider. There were others equally important. The people of this country would never believe that the Ro man Catholic religion was the true one. They had I been taught by their parents to follow the Protestant 1 religion as the only proper one. If then this was the case in England, let Hon. Members opposite show some liberality of opinion towards the Irish Catholics. They had been educated in their youth to look upon the Ro man Catholic religion as the only true one, and it had been inculcated upon them as the most perfect one. These were his sentiments, and he hoped and trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet, and Hon. Gentlemen who were with him, would get rid ere long of these preju dices, and that ultimately such measures would be adopted with respect to Ireland as would give satisfac tion to the country at large. Mr. GORE said that allusion had been made to the Church of Scotland, but he did not think that the eases of the Scottish and Irish churches were parallel cases. Considering the anomalous position in which the Church stood, it was their duty to remove the inequality which deprived the Church of respect and power, and to render it what it ought to be—the source of religion and happi ness to the people. If tha Government were to intro duce measures of such a tendency, he would give his THE SUN utmost endeavours to support them. He thought that the total redemption of tithes ought to be one of the first measures upon which'the Government ought to deter mine. Without undertaking to dictate to Government What they should do, he Would only say that he would support them to the utmost of his power, because he had the utmost confidence in them, and he would con tinue to give them his cordial and disinterested support. Mr. JOHN O'BRIEN said the time had arrived when the Government could no longer temporise ; they must either conciliate or subdue. The English Government had hitherto rated Ireland as a subjugated people, who rendered it (the Government) powerful by their dissen sions. England had formed a union, which gave to her an unwise domination, and neglected the oppor tunities of a wiser and more fruitful incorporation ; but since that union, England had kept herself in a state of cold and selfish isolation. For cen turies Ireland had been governed by the division of races, and afterwards by the power which sectarian differences gave to her rulers. The union came, and Ireland was united, but not incorporated with the empire. The Catholics were partially emancipated, but they felt that freedom was not yet attained. They called for the destruction of those sectarian differences which formed the most grevious part of their evils, and the most fruit ful source of British power. The British Government maintained the Church of an opulent minority at the expense of an impoverished and dissentient majority. All these grievances compelled four-fifths of the people of Ireland to rally under the coniprebensive watchword of Repeal. But the Imperial Parliament had the power, if it had the • will, to consign to repose the awakened spirit of nationality. The national energies were wasted in continual discussion, and the feelings of domestic life were disturbed and irritated. The Roman Catholics were denounced •as. unfit to discharge the ordinary functions of free citizens.—(Hear, hear.) What then were the people of Ireland to look to ? The Mem bers of the present Goiernment were those Ministers who said that they had commenced emancipation on the combined consideration of expediency and in timidation.—(Hear, and cheers.) Whatever weight ex pediency might have had with them he for one was convinced that intimidation had the greater force.— (Great cheers.) The Irish people were reproached with conspiracy, but by measures of comprehensive redress you can dissolve the combination.—(Cheers.) They were reproached with agitation, but Magna Charta was carried by agitation. -The Bill of Rights was carried by agitation. Trial by Jury was maintained by agitation. The Presbyterian Church of Scotland•was preserved by agitation. The independence of the Irish Parliament in 'B2 was obtained by agitation, and the emancipation of the Catholics was obtained by agitation.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member concluded by respectfully calling upon the House to consummate the great Act of Emancipation which was not yet completed—to carry to their councils the awakened spirit of nationality—to temper its enthu siasm —and, if they would, to regulate its aberrations. Mr. MONUKTON MILNES having placed a notice on the books, on the subject of Ireland,-and that small notice of 'his having merged in the larger proposition now before the - House, he trusted he should be allowed to make a few remarks. They should be few, for he promised the House he was not going to give the speech he intended to have uttered had his own motion come on.—(Laughter.) It 'Was an unfortnnate thing that they never could get a discussion on Ireland in that House, which did not turn out to be of an exclusively party character.—(Hear, hear.) He wished the Noble Lord the Member for London had' not confounded two things—a criticism on the late trials, and afterwards an essay on what ought to be the future government of Ireland. They had been favoured with speeches on two subjects which ought to have been kept widely distinct. Although the question of the late trials bore very little on the question of the future government of Ireland, it had unfortunately been introduced, and had tainted the whole debate with a violent party spirit. It was a matter they all knew, and all grieved about, that the law was so little respected in Ireland. But it ought not to have happened to the. Noble , Lord to be a party to bring the law into still less respect, as he had aimed to do, by the remarks he indulged in, when speaking of the recent prosecutions. He . was reminded by the con duct of the Noble Lord of *two lines in a work of Dickens'.—(A laugh.),, • ~ . , Against the Bishop plead the Church's cause, . And from the Judges vindidate the laws. And so, when giving what was real law and what judge made law, the Noble Lord should recollect that there was hardly any case in which a person was found guilty but what, according to his own opinion and statement, he was so found, not on the law, but on some quibble of it. —(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He must say for the Noble Lord, or for himself, neither of whom knew any thing whatever about the matter(Great laughter)—to speak in the irreverent and s disrespectful way which had been dime of those' trials was most improper.— (Hear, hear.) He should have thought that the experi ence of office which Hon. Gentlemen opposite had had might haie taught them the difficulties which existed in the way of a fair and impartial government of Ireland. They ought also to know that if the measures which they recommended were attempted to be carried into effect they would destroy Government after Government. They all knew that Catholic ' emancipation was carried by a combination of parties, and against the opinion and the wishes of the English people. —(Hear, hear.) The same feeling which so long prevented and thwarted Catholic emancipation still existed, and any endeavour at the present moment to depress the Protestant Church, or enlarge the Catholic, would meet with the most determined opposition. He thought it, therefore, most impolitic and unwise that the course opened by the Noble Lord (Russell), and followed up to such an extent by the other Noble Lord (Howick), and the Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. C. Buller), should have been taken by them without a modi fication of the opinions of the.people of England, which could . only be managed by the small processes— (Laughter)—which they all knew so well, and in time it would be folly in a Government to propose any such alterations as those suggested. 'lf they were proposed they would not be adopted—they would annihilate any Government.(Hear, hear.) • Much blame rested on the people of England for this state of things —more, much more, than on the Government. Whatever evils were in Ireland were owing to ourselves. If the priests were violent it was . England made them I so, by leaving them a' prey to every political excitement. We had made them as they were. He shared this opinion with almost all the great states ' men—(Laughter)—who had ever administered the affairs of this kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) There was no doubt that such was the opinion of Mr. Pitt.—(Hear.) Although there remained no distinct record of it, he had never heard it doubted. It had been asserted over and over again in that House, and had been mentioned in conversation by Mr. Pitt's most intimate friends. Mr. Pitt believed that the union would never accomplish its object as long as the Catholic clergy of Ireland were left in their unregarded and degraded state.—(Hear.) If a proof were wanted he found it in the declaration of the Roman Catholic bishops, made on the eve of the union. At an assembly of the Roman Catholic bishops; held on the 17th, 18th, and 19th of January, 1799, they admitted that the provision pro posed by the Government for the Roman Catholic clergy ought to be, thankfully accepted ; and that such an interference by the Government with the appoint ment of the bishops as would enable it to be satisfied of their loyalty was just and ought to be agreed to. This same opinion • was held by the yen- last of that genera tion of remarkable men—Lord Sidmouth. Lord Sid mouth made an offer to the Roman Catholic priests to receive from George the Third -a share of the reyium donum at the time it was given to the Presbyterians. By 1 the Presbyterians it was accepted, but the Roman Catholic clergy very properly declared that it would be considered as a bribe to detach them from the cause of Cathohc Emancipation. Under these circumstances they could not receive, , it. The same opinion was held by Lord Grenville, and Lord Castle reagh avowed it frequently. Ia the Committee of 1825, when the question was brought prominently for ward, it was well known what were the opinions of Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Shell on this; subject ; but he would not detain them on this pthit:-L-tliey were matters which they might all read for theMiselyes, and which no one had ever denied. ,- In 18265, Lord Brougham, then Mr. Brougham, in reference to the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland, expressed himself in favour of the provision proposed the year before in - 1825; a resolution to that effect was passed in that House by a large majority. He did not intend to bring this question in any other form distinctly and immediately before the House ; he was only declaring what he believed to be the sole, and- single, and true line into which they cOUld get for .. the ... purpose of bettering the condition of Ireland. He never intended to propose — indeed, it would fie'an insult to do so—to give a sum of money to the Catholic 'clergy, because it would be con sidered now, as.. it was considered then—a bribe. It was a thing impossible-_—it could not be offered; but he would tell them what he thought could be done, and he had no doubt the House would agree with him on this point at least. The Ministers seemed to begin here in the right way.. They had done all that the Roman Catholic clergy would accept in giving them every means of possessing the endowments that might be left to them by persons of their own persuasion.— (Hear, and a laugh.) That was, of course, very little.— (Laughter.) But he wouldtake it as an earnest of more, he would take it as an earnest of the good feeling of the Government in this matter; he hoped it would be followed up by some such measure as the appointment of a Commission to inquire into the state of the Roman Ca tholic chapels in Ireland, with a view to giving a grant of public money for the purpose of repairing those buiblings now desecrated by misery and poverty, and and which had every right in the world to be kept in a decorous state for public worship. He hoped, too, that U ie invidious distinction, with respect to the titles of the r *relates of that Church, might be done away with -o(Hear, hear)—for, believing as he did, and as every I member of the Church of England must believe, the per- I fect right of those prelates to assume the titles of , bishops and archbishops, though net in connection with • the sees, as any of our prelates had to assume them, he thought it would be a foolish and invidious distinc- i tion if they left that matter any longer doubtful. Let I them proceed by degrees to establish a good feeling in Ire- 1 Band—let them do it by degrees, not because 1 he did not wish to do it at once, but because he knew ' what was the feeling of the people of this country on Ithe subject. He knew that their feelings and prejudices vs ere connected with the best principles of social and r digious liberty in this' country. Their prejudices a gainst the Roman Catholic religion were heir-looms v /Inch came down to them from the times of Catholic 1 persecution against Protestants, and the consequence was I that Roman Catholics were at this time paying the pe t amity of the intolerance and bigotry of their forefathers. It was only by slow degrees that such opinions and feel i 'ugs could be eradicated. And oh ! what a lesson ought it to be to them to be tolerant in these matters, when the d v saw bow deeply such intolerance in past times had sunk :.into the hearts of the English people—what a lesson ough tt, it to he to all sides to do nothing that should encou rage 41tolerance, when they 04W what he would call the •. LONDON, TUESDAV EVENING, FEBRUARY 20, 1844. " hundred days " of Queen Mary had so operated on the English mind at this moment, aslo incapacitate them from doing justice to the Roman Catholic population of Ireland! When he spoke of doing justice to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, it appeared to him that in the speeches of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite there was a most extraordinary deficiency--one, indeed, nearly as great as that committed by Hon. Members on his side of the House.—(Hear, and laughter.) On this side of the House we often talk about Ireland as if there were no Roman Catholics at all in it. On the opposite side Hon. Gentlemen talked of Ireland as if there were no Protes tants in it. Who could have believed, while listening to the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Sun derland, or that of the Honourable and Learned Member for Liskeard, that there were a million of Pro testants in Ireland.—(Cries of " No, no," from the Op position.) Well, then, two millions.—(No, no, and laughter.) Say, th en , a m illi on an d a half.—(Laughter.) At least, then, an amount of Protestant population in that country, which, considering their property and in fluence, they could not entirely disregard, without doing injustice to that country. Remembering what the Pro testants of Ireland were, he would ask at whose door lay the evil ? If they were proud and insolent, if they did tyrannise over their Catholic fellow-subjects, who had encouraged them in doing so ? What Legislature was it that had fostered in them this feeling, that had made them absolutely the spoilt children of England, and had led them to regard themselves as the lineal descendants of the Cromwellian conquerors of Ireland? He did not say this was the case, but, looking histori cally at the subject, he should say such was the natural consequences of the manner in which the Protestant in terest in Ireland had been fostered and cockered by England ; he said, therefore, to turn round and deny these men their proper influence, and to speak of them as non-existent, as in no degree to be regarded, as if they held no part of the public opinion of Ireland, ap peared to him as a gross and unmitigated fallacy. The Protestant Church was regarded, beloved, and revered, in Ireland, in a manner which, he was sorry to say, he found very few of its followers in England exhibit. He wished he could see the members of the English Church as much attached to it as the Protestants of Ireland were. He therefore could not pretend that he would come at once to any of those stringent, and rapid measures by which the Church Establish ment would be at once destroyed. He did not think, supposing the dream of the Noble Lord to be realised, and he seemed indulging in some such reveries —(Great laughter, occasioned by Lord. Howick being, or appear ng to be, at the moment asleep)—that religious ani mosity would be at all weakened. Leaving the feelings of the people such as they were—he believed the volun tary system would have the effect of imparting to the Church of Ireland all the rancour and bitterness which they then found disfiguring the Roman Catholic Church. And the consequence would be nothing less than one of the most bloody and destructive conflicts of religious opinion that had ever been seen on the face of the earth. On these and other considerations he would not support any measure which would tend to destroy the Pro testant Church in Ireland. If that link were severed what was to prevent the Irish Protestants from saying we are Irishmen also, we wish to have a national legis lature; what was to prevent them from becoming re pealers ?—(Hear.hear.) He saw nothing to prevent this consequence, but he would say with the late Baron Wolfe, he would wish to give the Catholics in Ireland an equality of rights, not an equality of degradation. He would do everything to secure their comfort and dignity; he was not to be terrified by seeing two or three respectable theologians with purple stockings sitting in the House of Lords.—(Cheers and laughter.) He thought also they ought to establish friendly relations with the Court of Rome.. Were the clergy in connection with Rome there would be just as much chance of their being good subjects of the Crown as any members of that body. Relations with the Court of Rome ought now, at least, to be renewed. The Hon. Member for Newark had mentioned this subject in the House last session. He did not think there would be any objection to it on the part of the House or on the part of the country.—(An ironical " Hear, hear," from Mr. Plumptre, and laugh ter.) Such an attempt, if made, would certainly require some caution. —(Laughter.) The Court of Rome had been so long accustomed to be the prey of diplomatists. that they would probably receive our advances with suspicion. But if they explained that they felt that the Court of Rome could revive in Ireland the old and excellent principle of order and conservatism for which it was distinguished, and which it had main tained in every other country in the world except Ire land, - such an attempt might be made most successfully. But i the education of the Roman Catholics ought also to be regarded and provided for by an additional grant to the College of Maynooth, or the endowment of an Irish College at Rome,which, of the two he should prefer. He thought that encouragement ought to be given to her Majesty's present Government, and to every other Go vernment--(Laughter)—in cases which he considered superior and more portentous than the existence of any Government.—(Laughter.) It was considered that the effect of the Reform Bill had been to injure the stability of Governments in this country.—(Laughter.) It was impossible now that any Government, however well ma naged, could retain power for as long as Sir Robert Wal pole was permitted to retain it.—(Laughter.) It was, however, the duty of every Government in this country to lay matters in such a train, and to prepare them in such a way, that whatever the result might be to them selves, whether they were able to carry them them selves or not, would soften the difficulties to those who came after them. The Noble Lord the Member for London pledged himself in this debate as to what he would do if he became the Minister of the Crown. The Irish Catholics might reckon when the Noble Lord could get a majority by any means, that he would give them religious equality.(Hear, hear.) They might know that was the very least theywould gets (Laughter.) It was the duty of every Member of Parliament to take care that if such an unhappy event should take place—(Laugh ter)—to do all in his power to modify and soften the evil about to follow.—(Laughter.) The greatest difficulty in this world occurred, not from the events themselves, but from the world being impassioned for them.—(Laugh ter.) All he could say was, that he believed her Ma jesty's Government was right„ but it was necessary that they should do everythin g in their power to bring about what was just as tranquilly, and with, as he must say, as little revolution as possible.—(Great laughter.) That they would do so, he had not the least doubt; but in their own way.—(Laughter, and cheers.) They (the Go vernment) saw what was right as clearly as you do— they saw the evil as truly as you do—and saw what the remedy was as truly as ou do, but the remedy was not so palpable as th e ev i l.—(Opposition cheers .) They y would attempt the remedy, but their course would not be such as was proposed by the Noble Lord the Mem ber for Sunderland —they would bring it about Ly means which, in - the opinion of all p r udent men, would attain its-object.; and, at the same time, would not in sult public opinion in this country. lie warned , the Noble Lord, and o th ers b ehind him, from the destruc tion of the Roman Catholic Church—(Great laughter) —and to take care what they did in arousing a " No Popery " feeling in this country.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") There was a feeling -in this country w hi c h the Noble Lord, and those ar oun d , s h ould take care no t to arouse by violent and extreme declarations. He saw no reason why they might not have the scenes of 1780 acted over again ; and he was sure there would be a many a Lord George Gordon to help them On.—(oh.) They should set themselves seriously to remedy the evils of Ireland. Let them forget all their party differences when dis cussing the affairs of Ireland.—(llear, hear.) Let them not taunt Government with not going s o far as Hon. Gentlemen opposite w i s h e d, as l ong as they we nt in the same direction.—(A laugh.) They ought to make every allowance for the Government.—(A laugh.) And Hon. Gentlemen on the other side should remem ber that when they were in power they did not go farther. He gave his cor di a l vo t e in favour of the Go vernment, not becaus e th ey did all he wished for Ire land, but they did as much as the other Government, b who called themselves lib e ral, had done before Let them do religious justice to the people of Ireland nd and political justice would follow in the course of time.—(Hear, hear.) There ought to be limitations in politics as well as in matters eaf s of Ireland property. They could not go on discussing the wrong s tatute of for ever.—(Hear, hear.) They looked h at th r e d e nse v o il s so ,s f Ireland just if they were looking throng Lo telescope—(Laughter)- T in order to liringthemas near as possible ; -but they ought to endeavour t o o bliterate them as much as possible; they ought, instead of exaspe ratingnr and wounding the feelings ot the people of Ireland to try to soothe them in every way.—(Hear, hear.) Let them proceed in such a vein and they would do every thing for Ireland. They should legislate for Ireland not according to what they thought best, but according to law and present circumstances, and upon such sound and rational grounds as would cure the evils of that un happy country.—(Cheers.) Mr. MACAULAY—Sir, I cannot refrain from con gratulating you that I did not catch your eye in the present instance, because, I should be sorry to prevent an Irish representative from addressing the H ouse on an occasion so interesting to his country, but peculiarly sorry should I be to stand in the way of that Hon. Gentleman who pleaded the cause of Ireland with so much force. I now wish to submit to the House the rea sons which influence me in the vote I am about to give. And, in doing so, I am sorry to say I do not feel myself justified in following th e course traced o ut by my on. Friend opposite, with all that authority which he de rives from venerable an ti q uit y , not thinking it right to suffer her Majesty's Governme e n t t ng to th g ek o mi ir o swe n tiahaknie s proposing wte h measures which s sup port a in their own way se they are likely to make. The grounds oI think on port the motion are thes e : that most unsatisfactory and unsettled state, and that if there be disorders in that country, of which no statesman can see the source, yet there are disorders in the present condition of Ireland of which her Majesty's present advisers mast be really considered the cause, and I do not think that in any part of their conduct, either legislati ve or administra tive, they show a just appreciation of the nature o f t h e causes of the disorders of that country, or of the pr o p er mo d e i n I which they should be redressed. s_ be different eenothingfr from that omwhichto will infer or expect that their p olic y which they . have heretofore pursued . I _look f orwar d w i t h deep un e a s iness to the state o Ireland-4 Hear, hear, and cheers)—and under those circumstances, I con ceive it the right and duty of , every man to speak out, and I conceive my Noble Friends motion to go into a Commit tee of the whole House is both a very convenient, as it is, be yond all doubt, a perfectly Parliamentary, course to pursue. With regard to the proposition before us, it will not be neces sary to waste the time of the House in stating that th e p res ent condition of Ireland is one to pi te alarm a n d appre h ens i on . In that I think both sides of the House are agr ee d. Th at coun try constitutes a fourth pa rt of the U nited Kingdom. In pro portion, it is more than a fourth._ I the nat ura l f er t i l i t y o f its soil it is superior to any area of equa l extent in Europe. It possesses ports which hold out more a llurement s f or commerce than any other country , and i t is an inexhaustible nursery . for brave soldiers.—(Cheers.) It is a country of far more im portance to the prosperity and greatness of the em pire than all our vast dependencies put together, if multiplied five times over—of far more impor tance to us than our Canadian possessions, together with the West Indies, the Cape, and Australasia added to the whole empire of the Mogul.—(Cheers.) We know it is now governed, not by love but by fear—(Cheers)—that it is go verned as you govern-Sinde—(Cheers)—not by the confidence of the people in the law, and by attachment to the Constitu tion, but by means of armed men, and entrenched encamp ments.—( Cheers. ) This is a fact which, if it stood alone, would fully justify the House of Commons in going into an inquiry upon the causes which produced such a state of things in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) But there are other evils in Ireland, a part of which cannot be attributed to the present Government, and a part of which can be justly laid to their charge. Ido not wish to weary the House by tracing the origin of those • evils; and yet, I think I can hardly do justice to the question without casting a passing glance on them. No doubt when we look at the pri mary causes of these evils, we must look not only beyond the existence of the present Administration—not only beyond the time of any living statesman, but to times before the names of " Whig" or " Tory" were pronounced—to times anterior to the introduction of the Puritans, to which the Hon. Member for Shrewsbnry, in his very ingenious speech, attributed these evils—to times anterior even to the Reformation. I think we may trace the first source of those evils to the manner in which Ireland became annexed to the Crown of England. It was a couquest, and a conquest of a peculiar kind. It was not a mere annexation of Ireland to the British Crown, which would be a benefit to her. It was not a conquest like that of France over Normandy, or like that by which Silesia was added to Prussia. It was a con quest of a different kind. It was a conquest known in ancient times, and well known among rude nations— it was a conquest of race over race—it was the dominion of one nation over another, such as was established by the Mahrattas over the kingdom of Gwalior—such a do minion as Spain, established. ' over South America. That I take to be the first great fountain of all these disorders. I believe that the very worst of all tyranny is that of race over race.—( Hear, hear.) I believe that the enmity which has existed between nations separated by sea and mountain, even when those nations have been at war with each other, has never approached, in its most intense bitterness, the enmity of nations which have been geographically and locally inter mingled, and yet, at the same time, have never been morally amalgamated. It is the feeling of the Spaniards and the Moors; it is the feeling which, down to our oven time, exists among a large part of mankind in regard to the Jews. Never theless civilisation can remove this evil ; for in our own coun try—a country which formerly suffered under the same species of misery—we have seen Celt and Saxon, Dane and Norman, all fused down, all melted together, and forming one great united people.—( Hear, hear.) This, we might have hoped, would have taken place in Ireland. I believe it would have taken place but for the establishment of the Reformation.— ( Hear, hear.) Then came in anew division to strengthen the old one. The aborigines of Ireland remained true to the ancient faith alone among all the nations of the north of Europe.—(Hear.) Then you had im mediately a new line of distinction ; you had theological animosity called in to reinforce and reanimate the undying animosity of race : and in this manner it is that the two have come down to our own time. It did unfortunately so happen that the spirit of liberty in England was allied with that spirit in theol og y, w hi c h was mos t w id e l y oppose d to t h e Roman Catholic Church—it did so happen that the passion for arbitrary Government, was, daring the seventeenth century, closely allied with a tenderness for the old religion. Such men as Pym and Hampden, and Vane, and even Milton, afford ex amples of the operation of this kind of alliance. Even Milton, with all his eloquence, while proclaiming the great doctrines of religious liberty, always made an exception—the religion of the Roman Catholic. On the other hand, those princes who re spected no rights of °Protestants in the case of any dissenters, always respected the rights of the Roman Catholic. James the First, even after the gunpowder plot, had no repugnance to the Roman Catholics. Charles the Second was a concealed Catholic. James the Second an avowed Catholic. In this manner it commonly happened that their evil was our good, that throughout the whole of that long contest our slavery and their freedom was the same thing. At this very day every thing which in the mind of the English Whig is as sociated with what he considers the glory of his coun try, is, in the mind of a Roman Catholic, asso ciated with the degradation of himself and his religion. Take the name of William the Third—take the name of the battle of the Boyne, and others which I need not mention. I never recollect having been so forcibly struck with the differ ence as I was on a day which I ought to well remember—the day when I had the honour of being declared Member for the town of Leeds. I was in the chair, which was adorned with orange ribbon s ; it was surrounded by men of the strongest opinions, nothing but orange ribbons were to be seen. I could not help thinking how anomalous all this would have seemed to an Irish Protestant. Nor was this all ; there was a large orange flag carried before me, sad Sir George Saville, one of the very first of those who led th e way i n c l a i m i ng equal rights for the Catholics, sat in the very chair in which Lord Milton sat after he gained his great victory in Yorkshire. What a triumph would this display have been considered by an Irish Protestant over the Catholics. At the same time it was a circumstance that suggested reflections on the whole of the history of the two nations.- o ( Hear, hear. ), During that century twice the Irish population rose against the Protestants, twice they were put• down and visited with severe punishment. They were put down first by Cromwell, and then by William the Third. Each of these rulers, after his victory, proceeded to establish a system of his own. That of Cromwell was fierce and strong, and able and cruel. It was all contained in one word—a word which Lord Clarendon tells us was constantly uttered by the Englishmen in Ireland—extirpation ! What his policy would have been if he had lived; we cannot tell ; but his object, un doubtedly, was to make Ireland completely a part of England. William the Third's policy was seemingly less cruel ; whether in reality it was less cruel, I have my doubts. The Irish Catholics were to live they were to multiply, they were to dwell on the earth—they were to till the earth—but the Catho lic was to be what the Helot was in Sparta—what the Greek was under the rule of the Ottoman—what the man of colour is at this moment in Pennsylvania. He was to be excluded from every honour and every privilege. At every step in his path through life, he was to find himself cramped by some galling restriction. If he were desirous of military glory, he might go into the armies of Austria or France. If he felt any desire to take part in politics, he might plunge into the diplomacy of Italy or Spain ; but if he remained at home he was to be a mere Gibeonite—a mere hewer of wood and drawer of water. Bad laws badly administered increased the bad feelings from which they had sprung—and to that period I believe is the origin to be referred of all those bad feelings arising out of the relations of landlord and tenant in Ireland, which have lasted down to our own times, and which have led to such fatal con sequences throughout the whole subsequent series of Irish history. As to the Courts of Law—as to the juries—they have existed only for the benefit of the dominant class. As to the priests, those men who have been revered as the dispensers of the Christian sacraments, they have been constantly treated in a manner in which no man would treat the veriest mountebank. A t last there came a great change over the face of Europe. The French revo lution had awakened the spirit of liberty throughout the world. Jacobitism was certainly not the national ally of Catholicism, but oppression and misery produce sharp coalitions, and such a coalition was now formed. That third Protestant ascendancy was put down by the sword, and then it became the duty of the eminent man who stood at the head of affairs to consider how he was to' deal with Ireland. I must say, though lam no idolater of the memory of Pitt—that when I compare the plan which he formed with the policy, either of Oliver Crom well or William the Third, lam forced to admit that he de serves, over these celebrated men, the praise of great wisdom and of great humanity. The union of Ireland to England was part of his plan—an excellent part of his plan—an essential part of his plan, but still only a part of it. It is never to be for gotten that his scheme was one much wider in extent than any which we have yet seen carried into effect. What he wished was to unite the hearts and the affections of the two nations. Catholic disabilities were to be removed. The Catholic clergy were to be placed in an honourable and independent position. Catholic education was to be conducted on a liberal scale. His views on those opinions agreed with those, I believe, if I am not misinformed—with those of a man of an under standing even more enlarged and capacious than his own—l mean, Mr. Burke.—(Hear, hear.) If that system had been fully and fairly carried into effect, it is my belief that the union with Ireland would have been as secure and as far beyond the reach of danger as the union with Scotland.—( Cheers.) The name of the union would have been associated in the minds of the ereat body of the p eo pl e o f I re l an d, w ith th e remova l o f cruel and galling disabilities, and with respect paid to their re ligion.—( Cheers.) All that was just, all that was national in their feelings, would have been bound up with the English connexion. —(Cheers.) The Parliament on College-green would have been remembered, as it deserved to be remembered, only as the vilest—( Hear, hear)—the most corrupt-4 Hear, hear)—the most tyrannical—( Hear, hear)—legislative assem bly that ever sat, I believe, on the face of the earth.—( Loud cheers.) In saying this, lam sure lam not giving any offence to any Irishman.—( Hear.) I sayy_ no more than Wolfe Tone has said. (The Right Hon. Gentleman here quoted a passage from Wolfe Tone, in which it was asserted that there was nothing in the history of legislation -at all bordering on the in famy of College-green, and that he did not believe it had ever entered into the heart of man to conceive anything more infamous than the - system of Irish legislation.) Not only would the union, if .this had passed, have been associated in the minds of the Catholics of Ireland with great benefits received—(Cheers)—but those benefits must have inspired unmingled gratitude—(Cheers)—for they would have been benefits not conceded to force, but given freely—(Cheers)—given in the moment of pow er.—( Cheers. ) lam sorry that Mr. Pitt's measures were not carried into effect, but the Irish Catholics found that they had given away their independence, and that they had obtained no compensa tion in respect of their civil or their religious liberties.— (Cheers.) The union must now be associated in their minds with disappointed hopes and violated pledges.—( Cheers. ) Nevertheless, it is not yet too late.—(Loud cheers.) It was not too late in 1813.—(Cheers.) It was not too late in 1821. —(Cheers.) It was not toe late in 1825.—(Cheers.) If some of those men who were tben, as now, high in the service of the Crown, would have made up their minds to say that which they were forced to say four years later, I believe, that all the benefits of the policy of Mr. Pitt would have been secured.— ( Loud cheers.) The supporters of agitation had not been or ganised. The Government was under no coercion. That which might have been given in 1825 might have been given with honour, and might, and probably would, have secured grati tude. At length, in 1829, concession was made—lawfully made—and made without conditions, which Mr. Pitt would un doubtedly have imposed. But it was made reluctantly, and with evident reluctance. It was made confessedly for the pur pose of avoiding a civil war. Was this a concession to be re ceived with gratitude, or to be received with contempt? Was it not a necessary effect that it should inspire in the minds of the Irish people an opinion deeply to be lamented, but one, with the evils effects of which we are at this day con tending? Could they forget that they had come before the English Parliament, during twenty-seven years, as suppliants for justice, pleading the rights of conscience, pointing to solemn pledges, to the promise of Mr. Pitt : and it is believed, to the promise given by his Majesty, George IV., when Prince of Wales ? The most profound thinkers, the most eloquent orators, had toiled in their service in vain. Mr. Pitt, who bad endeavoured to fulfil his intentions towards them, had been driven from power. Mr. Grenville and Lord Grey, who attempted to do but a small part of what Mr. Pitt had pro mised, were driven from pow er. Mr. Canning took their part, and Mr. Canning was hunted to death. —( Loud cheers laidfo m in theorator was them selves--to Catholics bean look fo from Opposition.) ve,then selves—to organise agitation—to display themselves in a strong the WhenCa thtolli and formidable array of force, just keeping within the limits of the law. The consequence was, that within two years after that great man had been carried to Westminster Abbey, broken-hearted, the feeling pervaded the Roman Catholic body in Ireland, that from England, or at all events from that great party which now governs England, nothing was to be got by reason, and everything by force.—( Hear, hear.) However, the concession had been made—it deserved no gratitude, and it obtained none. The organization of agitation was complete. The leaders of the people had tasted the pleasures of power and of distinction. The people themselves had grievances enough to furnish a very good pretext for the continuance of agitation. There was a general sense that there was nothing which might not be got by playing over again the game of 1829.—( Hear, hear.) These, Sir, I call the remote causes of the difficulties with which we have now to deal ; these are the causes in which originated the great mass of that discon tented and morbid feeling which comes to us as the fruit of uninterupted misgovernment from the time of Henry 11. to the time of WilliarnlV.• ' which has come down to the states men of the present time to.deal with as they best may. And now, Sir, to that immediate cause. The state of Ireland, if I understand it rightly, is a state of disease, but then it was not a permanent state of disease, it was more a state of paroxysm. Ireland is always combustible, but she is no t a l ways on fi re.— (Hear, hear.) y When the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) came before the public as a candidate for the high official situation which he now holds, be announced himself under the type of a physician, and used, if I recollect rightly, several metaphors drawn from medical science ; and to follow out the same metaphor, I shall say that I think Ireland is not in a hopeless condition. I admit that it is a patient that has a bad habit upon it, but what I say is this, that its malady is one which, had it been properly treated, might have been kept off, and the patient might again regain its usual health ; but as the treatment, on the contrary, has been one of continual irritation, what other could be the result but to produce paroxysm after paroxysm, each more violent than the last, and seeming likely, unless some decisive step is adopted, to end in terrible consequences? It is, I conclude, impossible to deny that the administration of Lord Melbourne was an administration popular with the great body of the Catholic population of Ireland.—(Cheers.) It is, I believe, impossible to doubt that the two Viceroys who were sent to Ireland by that Administration had a greater share of the affections of the great body of the Irish people than any Viceroys since the time of William the Third.—(Cheers.) We know that, during his administration, great perils threat ened the empire in other parts ; hut we know that to Ireland the Government could always look with confidence. —( Loud cheers.) When designing men had raised disturbances in England, which threatened insurrec tion, troops could be spared from Ireland.—( Loud cheers. ) When an insurre c ti on b ro k e out i n one of our colon i es—an in -1 surrection of a very peculiar kind—an insurrectien with which 1 we might have supposed the Irish Catholics would have sym pathised, seeing that it was the insurrection of a Catholic po pulation against the conquering - English people, the Irish Ca tholics remained faithful—( Loud cheers)—in all things to the general Government of the empire.—( Continued cheering. ) Ireland was able to spare troops for Canada.—(lmmense cheering.) No person, I believe, doubts that if, in in 1840, by some fatal mischance, a foreign army had dropped upon the shores of Munster—no one doubts but that they would have met with as good a reception—that they would have been as firmly met as if they had landed on the shores of Kent or of Norfolk-( Hear, hear)—by a determi nation on the part of the whole population to support the throne of Queen Victoria.—( Hear, hear.) And under what circumstances, and by what means has this great change been produced? Not by any great legislative boon con ferred upon the Irish people by the Government—( Cheers) —for although they have the inclination, they have not the power against a strong minority in this House, and a strong majority in the other House of Parliament, to carry any such legislative measures.—( Cheers. ) It was effected merely by the executive Administration—(Cheers)—crossed and thwarted at every turn, having against it the whole of the Established Church, and the greater part of the landed gentry of this country.—( Cheers. ) Yet with such an Opposition they managed to conciliate the af fections of the great body of the Irish people, and I cannot help thinking that if during those six years that Administration had been as strong in Parliamentary support as the present Ad ministration—if it had been able fully and effectually to ex tend to Ireland the benefits of the Lritish Constitution, the effects of such legislation would have been such as to make all the friends of Ireland rejoice.—(Loud cheers ) But during those six years an Opposition, powerful in numbers, was ranged against the Government.—(Cheers.) Those Lords-Lieutenant who were more popular in Ireland than any Lord-Lieutenant who had preceded them—were assailed as no other Viceroys had even been assailed—(Cheers)—and assailed too for those very portions of their administration—which were the chief modes of conciliating the people of Ireland.—( Loud cheers.) Every Legislative Act without exception, which was intended by the Government for the benefit of Ireland, and which was popular with the Irish people, was rejected.—(Cheers.) When Catho lic gentlemen of high abilities and of stainless character, were placed in situations which were much below their merits, their appointment was hailed with the greatest satisfaction by their fellow- countrymen—( Cheers)---and no wonder that they were so after 150 years of persecution, during which, doubtless, elo quence as fervid and abilities as great as those of my Right Honourable and Learned Friend the Member for Dungarvon, had withered in utter obscurity under the influence of penal and disabling laws.—(Loud cheers. ) During that century and a half of persecution no Irish Ca tholic had risen to honour, except by deserting his country ; and when at last a Catholic was sworn of the Queen's counsel, a Catholic was seated at the Board of Admiralty, the great Tory party set up such a yell of dislike as Lord George Gordon drew from the great mob of his followers. We have seen some specimens of that eloquence revived; but the leaders of the party, even at that time, seldom joined in the cry, though I could mention instances, and one eminent in stance, to the contrary.--( Hear, hear.) The leaders of the party were content, as far as I can recollect, with listening to it, with enjoying it, with profiting by it.—(lronical cheers from the Opposition.) It was not necessary that they should do more.__( Renewed cheers.) " Are they not aliens?" was the phrase of an eminent person.—(Loud cheers from the Op position.) " Mi n i ons of Popery," was the epithet of another. —( Hear, hear.) While the Catholic priesthood, which is re garded with the greatest reverence and love in Irelanddo we not remember that they were called " a demon priesthood," " priests of Baal," " false prophets of Jezebel," feeding at her board ?—(Cheers. ) But not content with insult, not content with throwing out and mutilating every measure which would have been beneficial to Ireland, the Opposition of that day as sumed the offensive—they determined to bring in a legislative measure for the purpose of depriving Ireland of every benefit which she had derived from the Reform Bill. They brought in an Act which they called an Act of Registration. They themselves now admit that it would have been an act of disfranchisement. I take the description of that Act from their own lips. They admit now that a new light has broken in upon them. Has a single new fact been brought forward, which has not been urged twenty, thirty, or forty times over in this House. In point of fact, they do not find themselves at liberty to ruin the country, except when they are out of place and want to get into it.—(Cheering from the Opposition, and ironical cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Well, Sir, in place they are ; it was very fitting that such ser vice should have its reward, and it had its reward.—(Cheers and laughter.) Several causes undoubtedly concurred to place them in the situation which they occupy, but I believe the principal cause to have been the discontent which they excited in England against the Irish policy of their predecessors. In ' their eagerness for victory, they called up a spirit of great power--a spirit much more easily evoked than laid—the spirit of religious intolerance.--(Cheers.) It placed them in their situations, and then their punishment began.—( Cheers and laughter.) It was pleasant, indeed, very Pleasant to get all the advantage of the sermons of the Rev. Hugh M'Neile, and of the speeches of the Rev. Hugh Stowell ; it was very plea sant to have their own cause represented by High Churchmen, and by Low Churchmen, and by Dissenters, as the cause of the Gospel struggling against that spurious liberalism which made no difference between religions truth and religious falsehood. It was very pleasant to hear that their political foes were the slaves of Antichrist, and were marked with the sign of the Beast. All this was very pleasant at that time, but when they had attained power, they found that there were about eight millions of Catholics in Ireland, whom, either by themselves or their agents, they had been insulting and degrading. What was the necessary result? I give them credit for not wishing to do the smallest harm beyond what was necessary for over throwing the late Administration.—( Cheers.) They regret that they cannot find a sufficient number of Conservative Ca tholics whom they would be justified in promoting at the Irish bar, and they express a similar feeling with respect to gentlemen in this House. But what I wish to know is this— why are all the Roman Catholics in the empire their enemies? Who ever heard of such a thing before ? Here you have about eight millions of people, of all sorts, characters, and professions, peers, lawyers, merchants, peasants—men belonging to every rank in society.—(Hear, hear.) At their head is the Premier Duke of the Empire—(Hear, hear)—the hereditary Earl Marshal—the heir of the Fitzallans and the Mowbrays— (Cheers)—while, on the other hand, you may go down into the lowest ranks of Roman Catholics, and find enmity exist ing, such as hardly ever before was heard of.-4 Hear, hear.) If, indeed, there was something in the Roman Catholic religion peculiarly opposed to the general system of the polities adopted by the Honourable Gentlemen opposite I could understand the thing, but that subject was ably touched upon in my Noble Friend's opening speech.—( Hear.) Is it the fact that the Catholic theologian is peculiarly likely to ally himself with the cause of civil liberty ? Quite the con trary. Of all forms of Christianity the Catholic religion is that which attaches the greatest importance to antiquity and authority, which rests most on the grounds of prescription, and which, even by its rites, its vestments, and its language, would seem bound up with Conservative politics.—(Cheers.) Was there a single Catholic in the army of Fairfax—(Cheers) —and how many hundreds of Catholic gentlemen came forward on behalf of Charles the First ?—( Cheers.) When a reward was put upon the head of Charles the Second did any Catholic be tray him ?—(Cheers.) When, at the close of the last century, attacks were made by republicans upon the old monarchies, who stood by the monarchy ? The Catholics.—(Cheers.) It was so in La Vendt;e—(Cheers)—it was so in Spain.—( Cheers. ) It was the greatest mistake that was ever made for Govern ment to set itself against the great body of the Catholics. All those who were acquainted with Mr. Pitt, and those who are acquainted with Mr. Burke's writings, from which Mr. Pitt derived his opinions, know that both Mr. Pitt and Mr. Burke regarded the Catholics as friendly to monarchy.— (Cheers.) Nothing except madness in a Government can possibly account for this peculiarity.—( Cheers.) The dis ciples of Mr. Pitt, while they professed to keep his birthday, seemed little. aware of the views which he took on that subject.—( Cheers.) Now see in what does all this end. You are forced to bestow your patronage on your friends—you cannot give it to the Catholics—an antipathy to your Government is excited—your appointments neces sarily go on, and will go on, as far as I can see, increasing that antipathy, unless Parliament adopt some final and decisive remedy.—( Hear, hear. ) The Emancipation Act, as far as respects all the favours of the Crown, is as much a nullity as regards the Catholics of Ireland as if it never had been passed at all. Of all the boons which the Right Hon. Baronet promised to bestow upon them in 1829, they have only received one, and that would not have been continued to them if the Tory party had carried the Irish Registration Bill. All that follows is no wonder. The wounded national spirit, the wounded religious spirit, starts up and shows itself in a hundred forms, some of which I deplore, some of which I deeply condemn, but none of which can excite my amazement, none of which seems to me to be anything except the national effect of gross mis-government, acting on strong sensibility. You refuse to admit the Roman Catholic into the communion of the Constitution, and you wonder that he finds himself on a narrow stage. Turn wherever he he finds every high place filled, every office in the hands whom he considers, and not without reason, as his enemies. What more natural than that people in such a situation should array against the regular con stitutional authorities, the strong defence of their own opi nions ? They remember—it would ,be strange if they did not remember—what their efforts, under the same guidance, extorted in 1829, and they are determined to try whether a similar effort may not be equally successful now. These, then, are your difficulties, and, in my opinion, they are difficulties of your own making. Well, then, having made them, let it be remembered that after all, difficulties are the tests of great statesmen. Eminent men have sometimes brought themselves into difficulties, and have admirably retrieved their error by the manner in which they overcame them.—( Hear. ) 1 Let us then see, how, with regard to your difficulties, you mean to act. First, with respect to legislation. The legislation which we had last session for the evils of Ireland, was all com prised in an Arms Bill—( Hear, hear)—not a measure of con ciliation, not worth naming as a measure of coercion ; but simply a measure of petty annoyance.—( Hear, hear.) It was a measure which, as far as I could ju tge, satitfi 'd neither side of the House. We called out for boons for Ireland, and many , Hon. Gentlemen opposite called for more stringent mea sures.—( Hear. Indeed, if I recollect rightly, one Noble and Learned Lord bestowed the aid of his counsel on the Govern ment by recommending an Irish Coercion Bill, but the only legislative measure passed was the Arms Bill. Then, as regards the measures of the Executive Administration, of the manner iu which they have dealt with this agitation. I merely mention them to protest, in the strongest manner, against the statement of the Noble Lord, that amongst reasonable men there cannot be two opinions about the Clontarf proclamation ; for that the Government had done everything which it was possible to do to prevent a breach of the peace.—( Hear, hear.) I say that, from the statement of the Government, it appears that in the meeting of Friday the resolution was formed; and could you not have takenupa pen, and have written three lines, to say that the Government apprehended a breach of th e peace, and therefore that all good subjects should avoid going to the meeting ?—( He ar, hear.) Is that a composition which required the w eighing of sentences— the weighing of words, when you should have been weighing the lives ofthe Queen's subjects? No rational person will, I atn sure, venture to say that, if there had been in the minds of the rulers of Ireland a proper sense of the hazard which they were running, the proclamation would not have been vi sible on all hands early on the Saturday morning. Now, the charge I bring against the Government on account of these prosecutions, is one respecting the details which have been mentioned. The charge is this, that the Government seems never to have considered the nature and character of those proceedings, and wherein they differ from a common action at law—a mere qui tam action. It seems to me they considered nothing but this—whether they would get such a declaration of law and such evidence of facts as would entitle them to a verdict and a judgment. Now, in my- own opinion, the judgment in any political case is but a small part of that for which a Government ought to be solicitous.— ( Hear, hear.) I should say that this is the only political case in which a Government has been merely solicitous for that alone. What a Government should seek to obtain . ought to be, by an exhibition of justice and modera tion, to produce a salutary effect upon the public mind. ( Hear, hear.) Of course, the law must be strictly observed ; bat to cause the law to be strictly observed is only one of the main conditions which would make a wise Government insti- , tute great criminal State proceedings. And if ever there was a proceeding in which your justice ought to stand in such a light as not to be questioned, or to have any prejudices enter tained against it, it was the case which you had to try. You were instituting a prosecution —I feel considerable delicacy in speaking on the matter in the presence of the person chiefly connected wi'h it, and that delicacy is increased by the succes sion of invectives which 1 have heard uttered against the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to-night. I regard the end that Hon. and Learned Gentleman is pursuing as unattainable ; and that I look with deep disapprobation upon some of the means which he employed for that end Ido not deny. But I would wish, whilst speaking on the subject, to observe the respect due to enemies, the respect due to misfortune, and the respect due to truth.—(Opposition cheers.) It is impossible to deny that that gentleman occupies, in the eyes of his fellow countrymen, a position such as no popular leader mentioned in all history ever occupied.—( Cheers from the Opposition benches.) Let us consider, too, that the interest with which he and his movements are regarded is not confined, to these islands, it extends to the Continent. You cannot sit down to dine at any table d'hote—(Laughter from the Ministerial benches)-- you cannot travel in any steam-boat or diligence, but the moment your speech or your accent " bewrayeth thee" as an Englishman, the first question which the merchant or manufacturer from the heart of France—which the plain cultivator, who is not much above the level of our yeomen, put to you—is, what is to become of O'Connell ?—( Oh, oh, from the Ministerial benches.) Let those who deny this assertion take the trouble to read the French journals. -(Opposition cheers.) I declare this to be a most undoubted fact. It is an unhappy circumstance, but it is one impos sible to dispute, that there is throughout the Continent a feeling with respect to the relations between England and Ireland not very much unlike the feeling with which wen generally regard the relations between Russia and Poland. I do not defend this feeling ; I do not say it is a right one ; I only assert a fact, which I can prove. And it is natural that it should be so ; for, in the first place, not to mention the immense jealousy which the power of England naturally produces, the ill-will with which anything great and conspicuous —such as the position of England is—is regarded, the Irish agitation has that in it which enlists on its side the sympathies of the two great divi sions, Liberal and Conservative, into which the population of France is divided. Its democratic character attaches to it the followers of the " extreme left," while its being Roman Catholic attaches to it the members of the Conservative party. Thus it happens that on this subject there is a variety of opinions on the Continent, which would not easily be found on any other question.—( Hear, hear.) I hope and trust that I shall be believed when I state that I do not mention this for the purpose of frightening the English Government into taking any course unworthy of it, but I do say that in a case of this sort it is of the highest importance that the administration of justice should be beyond all impeachment—that anything which would look like en unfair advantage should not be wel comed, but spurned away, and considered a greater disaster than any other evil. Is it a case in which the first opinion on the question of the jury is that Mr. O'Connell has suffered wrong in the matter? Is it denied, if the law had been carried exactly into effect, without fault or negligence, that Mr. O'Connell's case would not have been damaged ? Has any person ventured to deny that ? I have the word of one of the Learned Counsel for the defence, and the affidavit states it, that twenty-seven Roman Catholics were excluded from the jury.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from Mr. Sheil.) Take the ' Recorder's own statement ; it is very easy to talk about 716 names, or something of that sort, but reduce the thing to simple arithmetic, and see what it is.— ( Hear, hear.) You were going to call forty-eight names ; Now what is the 48th part of 720? It is 15 ; if those 15 were Roman Catholics, there was an even chance that there woull have been another Roman Catholic in the 48. But if, as the affidavit states, there were 27 Catholics, then there was nearly two chances to one that there would be two Catholics among the 48, and thus there was almost an even chance of there being two more Roman Catholics on the list. Now will any man tell me that Mr. O'Connell has not in this matter suffered a distinct wrong ? Will any person say that it is impossible, or even highly im probable, that the result might have been different if it had not been for this blunder? For remember the power which the law gives to jurymen is such, that a single juryman, if he is determined, and has absolutely made up his mind, may have quite as much influence in affecting a verdict as all the other eleven. Is this my opinion alone ? What is the language of Mr. Justice Perrin, as I find it rfleorted in the p a p ers favourable to the prosecutio n . He says, " there is about this case such gross negligence and failure of duty that I am not prepared to say it was the result of acci dent."—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from Mr. Sheil.) Here is one of your judges, and you call on us to pay the most pro found respect to all that your judges say—here is one of your judges, who says that " he is not satisfied that this was the effect of accident." He must know a great deal better than I do, or than any Englishman can know, what sort of tricks are practised in an Irish office when the object is to procure a jury to convict; and he says " he is not sa tisfied that this is the effect of accident." But I will come nearer home. The Right Hon. Secretary for the Homo Department, says, and says truly, " We are not responsible for the case." I know you are not. " I regret deeply that it has taken place, and I wish it had been otherwise ; for I feel the prejudice it has created against the Administration of justice." What has been said on the other side is precisely what I say ; " a prejudice has been created against the admi nistration of justice," which has tainted the whole of the proceedings. I do not wish for stronger words than those of the Right Honourable Baronet, but I wish that the fact were not so ; when in a great and important case—a case upon which the eyes of millions--the eyes of all civilised Europe was fixed—a mistake had taken place which created " a prejudice against the administration of justice." I wish Government had taken a rational view of the matter, and said, "We cannot avail ourselves of it." Hon. Gentlemen oppo site seem to think that with respect to striking off the Roman Catholics from the jury, they have made out a good case. I am ready to , admit that, in a cer t a i n sense, they have made out a good case. lam ready to take the facts as you put them. I take it, as you say, that it was an excellent thing to strike off all the Roman Catholics. But there is still the question, was it politic in this State trial to bring different religions and different races to their trial before a jury of Protestants only ?—(Hear, hear.) It is a plain question for every man of common sense. I know that the law was on the side of the Government, and my charge against them, from the beginning to the end of these proceedings, is with regard to the law. We knew what are the principles of the law in such a case ; every thing that can create a prejudice in the matter is carefully avoided ; we know what the principle de mediatate lingua is. In the case of a Dutch sailor, or of any other "alien," who, in a quarrel might stab an Englishman, he is not left to be tried by a jury of twelve Englishmen, but by a jury composed of half his own race and half of Englishmen. Now if any " alien" had been in the situation of Mr. O'Connell, he would have been entitled to a jury half composed of his countrymen ; you are ready enough to call the Irish Roman Catholics " aliens" when it serves your purpose.—(Loud cheers from the Oppo sition.) You are ready enough to treat them as " aliens" when you think it your interest to do so. But it is only when you are going to form a jury that you do not treat the homaa Catholics as " aliens."—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) Is it possible for any reasonable man to doubt that in a case where the feelings of two sects, of two parties, were greatly excited against each other, that a jury com posed exclusive of one sect, and from one party, would not do justice? This is the opinion of a much better lawyer than I am, for I, indeed, am no lawyer. But why did not the Sheriff impannel a common jury, which would have contained several Roman Catholics ? The difficulty in such a case would have beer, none, and that the trial would then have tended much better to the settlement of men's minds 1 have not the least doubt. You wished to get a verdict, and you got a panel, and from that panel a jury, from which no man could expect justice. And then you got a charge, which I do not mean to say is unprecedented, for the State trials of the seventeenth century furnish such precedents—( Loud Opposition cheers)—and after this charge you got a verdict, and what are you now the better for it ? , Has it tended to conciliate the people of Ireland? You say Ireland is quiet ; I know that it is so, and it will be so till the sentence begins to be executed, and for the most obvious reasons too, because the Irish people feel a deep interest in the fate of the man whom they consider their leader, and they will avoid doing anything likely to place him in a more dangerous position.—( flear, hoar.) But your difficulties will commence when the Court shall have finished its labours. By what means can you expect there will not be a very se rious outbreak of public feeling then ?—( Hear, hear. ) Is it possible for a human being to believe that that man, who pos sessed the boundless affection of his countrymen, while he was receiving honours from them, and while he was taxing them, will at once lose his popularity, when he becomes a martyr ? I, who am as much attached to the union as any Hon. Gentle man opposite, who dislike the means that have been used to inflame the minds of the people of Ireland against the union— I feel that Mr. O'Connell will not lose his popularity. The Right Hon. Baronet himself tells us that he is sorry to say " a prejudice has been created against the ad ministration of justice." And if Englishmen, the friends of the union, are deeply convinced of the fact that there has been great unfairness, what is the feeling of the Irish people ?—a people who are not too well informed, and who agree with Alr. O'Connell on the question of the union, not only as to its being a hard, but an unjust measure, and who believed every speech lie uttered on the sub ject as perfectly justifiable? What are we to expcc t to be their feelings ? Will not the power and magic of Mr. O'Connell's name be just as great when shut up in a prison as when at large ? But you will not have his personal in fluence, as hich has been so often, from whatever motives, ex erted to prevent the Irish people from proceeding to violence and extremity. At the same time see what has been the manner in which you have dealt with the agita tion? And now, for the future, as to your execu tive measures, they are still to be things of the same sort. What you gave given us hitherto were soldiers, barracks, un wise proclamations, and unjust State prosecutions. As to your legislative measures, we are, it is true, to have this Bill for the Registration of Irish voters, coupled with a Bill on the subject of the franchise. What provisions those measures are to con tain we cannot say. All we know, and can say with confi dence on this subject, is that it is impossible for you to legislate uj on it at once with credit to yourselves, with benefit to the Irish people.-- (Opposition cheers.) All we can with confi dence say is this—the measure you mean to introduce must either destroy the last remains of the representation of Ireland, or the last remains of your own character and existence. With respect to the Landlord and Tenant Commission, I say nothing upon the subject until we have the report. Nothin g has yet been done, and when we shall have the report nobody can say. But I feel that I have been trespassing too On some ou the House.—(Cries or " No, no," and " Goon.) s u lengthfuture into occasion a subject peha perhaps and all I will do now is to take s so e m en e met . on either side, for I of l t m he ay g h r a a v v e es t an an o ti pp highestortuni trmoptorgranncge—" I mean the question of the Established.hert Gnehtuiercehefinthlereland. man ner in which that question hs who vote with the Government, must say, that from gen t l eme n lz ,, a i d iich de i c s l n ar o a t t a ie e n c s om of pa l n ib ie e. rality--I mean that sort. and profess to tollowtliet: l w i by a vot e b e e r h ara c y worthy of the speech. From the Ministers who have yet spoken we have had nothing, so far as I have ob vet The Established Church, if we are to I n d . • f s r e o ri. m them, will not be touched.—(Hear.) the speech of the Noble Lord (Stanley), I in confess that it is impossible for sue not t \ +