The Sun. — London, England, 1844-06-15 00:00:00

els Dill nto our, h i ra seis a. the L i to we r to SI ure thi s 5110 n. ion was )w BPD He i ce d bye e Sobla the at ws the respect ,S t h e ir Act of ~)r e be the INP °t a p to t“,- 4 , g tbei hea ring e tioA P ti Ile o. 5 ,1 1 it Yi° t° - iuight tie; ill ° f tbe ,r° ilgor I° " .:j iby tiP ti e • bort aro [ea 'be' 5 ,[3 Lost t he h " ,,ipg ink o i . * •• if! P i ' „ o, :cute o ~el4Wre as be ch ef ofavva 0 1°11 In r derc a 1 h 111 r; Itb" Lo )011' rb er eovfl tine dif• w itli e ld no co etr pi° wo, rve 45' IS 000. tl3 3le o r ; C 0 -ea , 4 ' v te. 1,0 p;C- . 0 ie ' c ot . 60 4 ir 0 to or 0 ry e r ilf 4 P r464i° Inttittees on • a 4. lliaprivete Bil's over the whtle of the , Iti er e done 7 tl tn ne •• antler as Elect - on Committees. If keee°4triittee o • l'ale tiepeintel for the considers lf,:lefa•o„l, , cash Bill, the inconvenience coin fCOLL'`,",Le ooriated. 4 0: repli:d, and the motion was a. l eVE . „ ( . l . k y Y ( P i ROM DUBLIN. TO CASHEL. tnaitte,.l kart+ to bring in a B 11 for 1 1 4' a rdlw-,y train the city of 6al a fir of Cashel. Ti e Lit Ives breneht u'', t",•13 1 1 4 ,, 'iol•••• The mimes endorsed on the b•tek 6 !ae these of - ale V 1 - end V -• eseye. sore. le a 'kt the f Se i , tr o. Mr.MILNER GIBSDN, the Man n "m e :, Ma2lstrates 13111 I.r.S lead a third kr ti , . ent Le i •'• LRADSHAW the Centerhury '' *was rend • •. 1 • i . e ‘no:o. t lime, an, pass d. 4 kti. 14.1' - "FBULLER the Delaho'e waY all (Ni,. 2) was read a third time, Viti ie pox ki."Rat nl Ir'Feeted two petitions from bodies of iscenters iii the Tower Hamlets, against k kl • ). 1 (1w p c , ( Pill. a4.o,tari,,u,sNG. presented a petition, signed by per- Ote ie r+ ligee ns per.n t s , ons, at St Ives, in fa *7l:4o,Zszen‘ters' Chapels Bill. r ',Lg e i nst ` N ,EßS preset ted a petition from :Lem( s. s tile incoinestfix. presented a petition from Bristol, etn e s'::,"s's (+! all deuuminations, in favour of ere{ N . ‘ e„kettpels 13111. - gu t , ni : ) 1) presented ft petition from Brecon, lql3tem'N OF L csekers' Cleipels ETTE AT TIIE l~ t ' (FFICE. ace.`'‘COMP,E ',ad he held in his herd a peti ttaf,'‘',), ut which •h ,t hal trim- mit ad to the Right •" (1 . •. TT /I “ht int e eeeretary of estete for the est - tete t) ,rising him (7f intention to presi nt it, 1 4tie„ r ing ire emit nts under the immediate jaunt the Houie, as the case wits one re - (1 at. rsdress. It was the p, ti don r at 4 io~nt i• • N th " ), Lovett, Joseph Maerni, and Lin 4011, complaining ef 117 e de- I °seer letters at the (-; en rid Pest !'or immediate redress. The letters irem 47, Deeenthire-street, glifen-eqoa,e, th k e s t month, and the petitioners said that '.'et an / were not riven for ail), political It le th ey ", 7 ' 3 cl not contain any treasonable 'll eAs e a t a'"d dentine:l at the Post-dice by t[ , e y 'Fe authorities. beyond the usual time, kiNitios had been read • at the Post-office. - 1 /011e ' t , Pr they considered such a practice as k t er .ept °4 of the epy system Of foreign States—a kele and e ant to the tree system of the British Con ht dargorous to liberty. They were pre -o,,,,aeveio the truth of thosle allegatione,. and they Illetia c ,'"lnne•ttee to inqiiire into the subject. 3 / 4 l t i . ,,ap a ' r) .,was then ordered to be laid on the table., !'l4 DUNCOMBE said. the course tvh ; 'g,ht pursue would very much depend on the 1 +04 4 , shOuld receive from the Right Hon, 4 t"i le er ;., 6 ir - James Graham) to. re question which he 1 ,.t 4 e t to him. His question was, then, whether Gentleman was aware tread the _letters alviduals had • hen opener!, , and exa '4tSta,e 'General Post-officn and if so, whether it iill'erije by the authority ref any one of her Ma rt:ta of St •tes 9 • 4, 14 f AM said he bad to thank the Hon. the perfect fairness and frankness of the o )+ l4 4 " . (s h i i 4l pursued n the present occasion. He had 1 . 4 as to send him a copy of the petition Ri ch e st to notify to him the precise ques h4,l ne meant to put ; and he had, there t h Ivy „n opportunity of considering the V"te s tle a he should give to that question. aware that from so early a peried as the ` ;; : . e a Anne power had bsen Invested in the t\ yid t State, by warrant. to detain let -I)lu,P'lllOwer the Pos'elffice authorities to open NI In f a ',. Power came under the review of Perlin, iq an-i by the Act of the lsr of Victoria, IIPi continued to be vested in her Majesty's cser , • . e l ee _„et . ins of State. With respect to the let ‘,4 la, kit the petitieners no warrant had been issued. * k Fect t 0 ihose of :ine of tketn, he had, on . nsibtlity, issued a warrant, which was not 1,1414 q.. 'Lavine- made this dseleration, he must r , to add' that this pew, r was vested ,10 land officers of the the Crow by the -e lir t it was entrusted to them Ott Paid y 0 I c seet,—that amet of the 1 1 1 3 tb, t e.eti c. f nti y dence in the those Parli n who exercised' I t . was n.+t fel- the public good to press for 1 , 1 , 4 " , he piirticidar case.—(hear, hear.) At all i nt ( ' net think it consistent with his public duty 11!OStele° any further explanation— he hoped the .1 4 !ti th 'conitie to such an extent as not to ''St i 'Nily ; t iu ri•her item:Ml(ln. Ili t ' l s " a qiiestiole from Mr. HUME, the purport N 4, 0 could 11,4 patch, AIIAM stidi.he had cerefally considered the R~tthi sl e , had gonj'aifar in explanation as he con \ spy :cut) to go. tle must reepectfully but firmly " t tempt t tetil upon him' fttr further incure 4 6tIINT • t iOpo a tt CONIBF: said that as the petitioners illeuse to grant them immediate redress, 04' 0 thr v t as far as he was able, endeavour to give ' le.„'Petition tee, I le, • . , Velteiz ON Enl,ll roN rose to order.. After ke 4 Win had been given the Hen. Gentleman liNt) l ecorsjin•- , the standing orders, proceed to !e -• pitiq th 0 MBI3 sail he was within the standing Nita house With respect to the presentation of it was greatly to the credit of the Muse A l , to la ' e r admitted of the course which he pro li.th.kra,;`'slle in the' case of petitions complaining of b ".;: 4 ta ,'S l grevances, requiring immediate redress. ,1 . ei,..."" of pet:aons complaining of some personal 1 / 4 itti,.qz, „ to e GRAHAM—I beg to state to the House Y, that no warrant now exists with respect b t 'he four petitioners.—(Hear, hear ) k 4l,•vdr e uN COMBEe said the case required imme y h a s notwithstanding that statement ; and he ,V e a , e was astonished; and he thought the House k,kt a T 4 l lisbd that the Right Hon. Baronet should 11;1+` su ltik this discussion. rose to order. ~ti t e er3 f ` - ' I •N:%(.MIBE said he was not to be put down. k r ?, the Opposition.) „It kit t 4, 'v said the question now was, whether the ,":t`l'lse il t :,. a lan could procee.d to discuss this question. i(lt b tis e i r ,, , was, whether there was a personal griev- Oa t and he would submit that as there was 41 1 " exiitsnce, the Him. Gentleman was not at a, i ,;'enss the questio Oh, oh.) He did not (4 1 Person was at the mo lent affected by what complaineu air 4,400 1 , - IBE rose, but there were loud cries of ID ' chaffupon which the Hon. Gentleman sat 4 4 1 1 . SP)s tikE ER—The order of the House, under ‘ t 4l I. 'orlourable Gentleman claimed the right of V -t this petition was to the following I - petition complaining „ h at in cases of petitt o firievances, f i r which there was an urgent t's e lte f , stored providing immediate remedy, the sub -1 'll , ll petitions might he brought under the h et Vie] the House.' In this case the Hon. Gen tk2llse notice on the subject, and having given l a 'i t 'lsy' r l ‘ appeared to him that this was not a case 01 \ , 1 bo es rliiiiee g an immediate remedy. t Ti t , at eS„ r a w ( -92.118E said he hart no opportunity of and the question yesterday, yesterday, and he took the )Z114' 1 1 '4 ( 1 o r r 'llnity i hrirgn it forward. What he N; stet ''s'as, that the letters of those persons were thLe N . thit the spy system of foreign countries was te t ,.'''t`' this ceuntry.—(" Oh, oh," and "Chair.") ' A KEP ; (1 1 ,N, ka t t , repeated that he did not think this ti sq of urgent necessity, requiring immediate `e.;; ' tlierefere could not be discussed then. — cheers.) k . e t , , kl l .„ o Nll3E—l move, then, that this House do +l l 'o tfi e q s ;,;.(Lend Oppositio chee . rs.) Now I will F:, I "n(Cheer.) The Right Hon. Gentle -4_lll.li;',,st Lord of the Treasury, took that mode the t eid e e "f speaking on the main question, and it kit th at ttn. (3 , he could do so.—(Hear, }lean ' ) The 1 14 pm :'nlleman, the Recorder of Dublin would li p` ' that all his correspondence, relative to "f Dublin, and the subtraction of certain ar. d be opened and read by the House. — Oe'a' Oh, oh.") But others did- not wish e, l / 4 lt 41 So t el r family secrets revealed. .The: Re-. IVOttt . 4(i 'lltl not like to have their correspan sh '"ned 4 1 . 'At e' and read, and copies of • their letters ft:19,2(1 th,,eo;aban la _to th e R ec o r d er o f D u b'i n .—(A laugh.) Parties cemplain of ? The Right Hon. an a ‘," stated that he had issued his warrant fez.. ~4 0 10,j1c,araining the letters of these parties. He 11 1 " 1, La y n'ise c t i i ii nat the Act of Parliament, the Ist of Vic- S t t ,"ks' t 5e, e 1 83 7, recegnised that power in.the - , 1 ! aria s e ' The power had existed previous to Fl •w, i ,kl t ycli from the time of the Commonwealth; tkOti g . th e i irl uelieve that one man in twenty thousand 'kk Y c e s that had been smuggled into this Act, tate Urrr, -Poneence at the mercy of the Secre kk',' e s : t 'ay f r ; I t was a power that ought to be kt,,, l ti,ts" 'wh o s ' 4l any Secretary of State, particularly "te'xercised that power in an unscrupulous them lie ll had i • w e , opened the letters of one of these it. t, was ‘,11.211 the Right Hon. Baronet state which kti 4 •lP Ilor'ose letters had been thus opened? li p, an te LXe o ,'„) , l—Certainly not. Le' 114, Right Hon. Baronet would 'lett et ller it was the letters of Mr. Alazzini of 11 4% ' l dt °r th , (;„ , e other two gentlemen. He hail 1:". t ( nlred w e i e,t l Y, that it was Mr. Mazzini who was Ita;l'oe et. t,,? the particular attention of the Right Ij e g e e t , on e ei s he law made •it a misdemeanour an (0 open a letter, or detain it 1 , 4 e,: . 1 1 . i e k : to t il h e e e e',s,,,are% unless it was misdirected, ts, n s . t b e i t "ee, the person to whom it was ad "th th 4s ole to be.found, or being dead.. 41 L' t eM e letter '- a t} p ari a! h es . e sif returned, was alwaye marked as irqasone, tend lie contended that the 0+ 4. 4 tri ty ende.d that whenletters stereo pened q b i tlN‘ t; h: r • " the' of "le Secretary of State, that it should cover that they had been opened h~ tar t att , 4 3% this when time of Mr. Pitt and Lord o.'lll, tt' h e ...t at e. hen letters were opened by the ti r. otiet eilan ."• by this system of espionage 'tic im ae • " r ed by the Secretary of State he thel t in ;fit ral "lu'll' a atitoo f e 4, ,two ity. per f ect peace and r 'st Yee •, believed that during S od a a ffi s r e letters had been opened at v e sn, e h n ,, at e tic most unscrupulous manner, +e Fed f log s peeve would not bear, u '' t , tll , er a to r e ot his exposure they would take some s pr ee ", leer m ai `luereict this invidieus conduct on `s.), seee a l s,es'Y's present Minist,rs. It was Rio du ° l ‘ th e ' it 'night for Russia, ,orAustrian or for Ulm the f„ States, but it would he ° tre e air, .of . England. It was Yerunient did open the - letter's of certain peraons. and they ought to have further informas tion on the subject.—(Cheers.) He would do his heat to arrest this system of prying Leo letters on the part, of the Secretary of State for the Home Department. He toll them that this warrant no lenger exiattel, but he did not tell them when it ceased to exist, nor svben it was issued. He should like to see a copy of that warrant, and if the House did see it they would ahle to ascertain to a born it was ad dressed. and oh %%hese authority this extraordinary proceeding had been adopted. The Right Hon. Gentle men said that no other let'- rs had been oeened. lie (Mr. T. Duecembe) "aid Oat the ',tiers of Lovett, Mazzini, and the other gentletuer, had been opened, read, and examined, at the l'ost-talice, and that they had afterweirla been returned. A copy of that warrant onget to be liCore the House of Gannon-, and he sh - aild therefore inttve that a cepy of that warrant be laid before the House. -(Cries of " Order, order from the Ministerial henehes, answered by cheers from the Oppesitioe.) Weil, :hen, in order to give Hon. Members an orient urtity e f expressing. their opinion, he world move that V , e liaise do new adjourn—(t eas) fled he woull ink , the sense of the House, it he steed afore. on the qu •stion ef the manner in which the Go vernment had interfersd with the roost sacred privileges of the suleieet. Mr. WALLACE said that alien the Post-offiee Act had pis ed, in 1837, the Right Hew Member for Taun ton had essured the I the a 1 contain eoiliing but a c , nsolidetion of the former Acts. The Moose be lieved thst it wes a censelidatien only, and not an :the ration. The wen' atith wiahs this interference with 1. tiers had been introdacsd secretly, ate( without tha knewledge ef Members. The Bill hal b - en passed under the id .a that it eas only a fah' tonselidiciou, whereas it w tinf<er an.l unjust alteration - of the former Act. With regnel to the pracsiee, it e s s lo e, rg new. He had frequently drawa the atteteieti itf the Moose to it. It was one of the aceusaiona which he had been in the hsltit of tringingfoewael year after year, %Odle he was egiteting the question of P..st office reform. The Secretary of State had excused tha practice, tied he (Mr. Wallace) believed that et the prevent niemeet - there was; .a leg-alert machintry tit the Po•t-offlee ion the per nese. There wes a roren set apart tsar o p ening letters and examining / them, and he believed that p rs,tis had been sect abroad to study in' the schte I o é hew tool) , n,fold, and reseal letters in the Post tellee tt L Aldose He maintained that the same perfect and entire freedom which was extended to a man's p -Nen should be extended to his correspoudonee. aim:teal the po.ver to open letters was given in the Act of Paalitueent ; but he deeied that it ought to be there. At the time when franking was the 'privilege of Members, he. (Mr. Wallace) wrote on the ourside of all his franks and letters " llease to reseal and forward this lattCr after yoti have read it, and this. do not . burn it,"—(Loiul- laeghter)—and many of his. letters were subsequently re-endorsed—for they had been shown to him by their recipienta---"this is one of Mr. Wallace's (the Member for Greetiock) own letters, be sure and forward it."—(Great laughter.) lie was ex ceedingly sorry'to be obliged to say any thing about the consolidation of the Post-office Acts. but it was when they were consolidated that this abominable authority had got in. This had been discovered in the Act soon after it had passed, not by himself, but by a friend, and it must have got there in a manner he would nut particu larly characterise. • Mr. LABOUCHERE said, as so heavy a charge had been brought against him—for it was in the year 183 G, when he was in office, awl by the department of hich he was at the head, that the consolidation of the Post-lace Acts was effected, be .was sure the House would in dulge him for a few moments, whilst he said a few a ords in explanation and in self-vindication. ifs Hen. Friend said he at that time gave a power to the Secretary of State—(Cries of " No, no ")—so he (Mr. Labouehere) had understood his Hon. Friend. Now he had a distinct recollection of what the hew was before the con solidation, and his belief was that such power resisted at that time, and had existed for years arid years before. At that time he did what he professed ; he lid not alter the law, but he consolidated all the laws having tiny rela tien to the Post-office. But he would read the words of the old Act. They were, that no one shall open letters "except by express warrant under the hand of one of the Secretaries of State, for every such opening, detain ing. or delaying." With respect to the right itself, in his (Mr. Labouchere's) opinion, it was a power proper to be vested in some person whose responsibility would he a sufficient guarantee for its proper exereiee. He admitted the responsibility was great. but still he could easily imagine cases where the necessity for such a power would he imminent.—(" Hear, hear," from the Treasury benches.) He knew nothing whatever of the particulars of the present case ; but he upheld the neces sity of a power, under proper responsibility, to open or to delay letters, and he would not consent that such power should he taken away. Dr. BOWRING could not deny that there might be cases of extreme necessity, in which the exercise of such a power as this might be called for. But these eases could only and ought only to have reference to our own domestic affairs, red he was sadly afraid that home affairs could not be statad as the rause for the present interference.—(Cheers.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) would only state that the poaer had been exercised on account of, and s&ely for, home ff4irs, the matter. in his opinion, ettuld easily be settled. —(Hear, hear.) If he did not do this, there could only he one inference that the letters were opened. not for an honest English purpose, but for a discretable foreign or:e.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. WARBURTON said the words in the Act were the same, as those. - Mr. MTME —No, they are not the srme. Here is the old Act; read the words your'selt.—(Mr. Hemet here handed the old Act to the Hon. Member for Kenlel.) Mr. WARBURTON (having read the clariee)—Then, he must say, he liked those words better, for actording to this old Act, a warrant was requite d for each separate opening, det9itien, or delay. He did not agree with the Hon. Member for Finsbury in saying there ought not to be this power vested in the Secretary of State. But be thotight that this power ought to be exercised only in cases of great importance and emergency, and he thought there being a separate warrant required for showing each letter was a salutary provision, and he wished to ask the Right 'lon. Gentle man whether he issued a separate warrant in each case in which a letter had been opened ? Sir - J. GRAHAM (with considerable hesitation in. his manner)—l really must appeal to the House, Sir. In the statement I made at first I said that I had gone the full length of explanation that I thought consistent with my duty. I must, therefore, repeat that Ido not con sider it consistent with my public duty to proceed in any further explanation. Mr. WARBURTON—Then I collect from the an swer of the Right Hon. Gentleman that he will net inform the House whether he acted legally or not.—(Cheers, cries of " Order, order," and " Spoke, spoke.") Mr. ROEBUCK thought with the Riaht Hon. .Gen tleman, the Member fur Taunton, that this power, vested in a Secretary of State, ought to be exercised with great caution. He thought the Secretary of State ought to be re sponsible to the House of Commons, and it would be well if there should be ordered to be placed on the table of' the House of Commons, every six months, a return of the number of letters opened under a Secretary of State's w arrant. Mr. HUME had never heard it avowed by any Minister before that he had given any authority whatever .or opening private letters which were passing ihrough the Post-office. He was of opinion, that notwithstanding what had fallen from his lion. Friend, that in a free country such a privilege ought not to exist. (Cheers.) They were told that the slave the moment ne touched the soil became free, but by this privilege being vested in the Secretary of State, the man who was free upon that soil became a slave himself. It appeared to him to be an attack on public liberty. He would ask how long the warrant which the Right lion. Gentleman had issued had been in existence ? It might have been existing for many months past. Why ahould such a system of esp:onage exist—why should her Ma jesty's Secretary of State be made a police-officer for the protection of the Emperor of Russia, or any other individual? Such a thing was a disgrace to the coun try. It was discreditable to the man who attempted it. and dishonourable in a House of Commons, that would sanction it.' He thought they had a right to demand further explanation front the Right Honourable Baronet, We were at perfect peace in this coun try, and no plots were in agitation; consequently there was no necessity for such a privilege being exercised ae that which had been taken advantage of by the Right Hon. Gentleman. This appeared to him to be one of the most disgraceful transactions he had ever heard of. He differed with the Speaker, in thinking that this was not a case of .pressing grievance. They had a right, he said again, to demand an explanation from the Right Honourable Gentleman, for the act was a mes:,' discreditable and disgraceful one, and the Right Hon. Baronet might depend upon it that if he did not give that explanation it would not be the last time he would hear of it. He trusted, therefore, that the Right Hon. Baronet, for his own .sake, would give the ex planation which bad been required of him. Mr. F. FRENCH said it was evident from the answer or the Right Hon. Baronet, that both he and the Post• office authorities had been guilty of misdemeanour on three or four occasions, for it roust be evident to every one, from the answer which had been given by the Right Hon. Baronet, that only one warrant had been issued, inasmuch as he had stated that " the " warrant had been withdrawn. Mr. WATSON begged to call the attention of the House to the words of the Act of Parliament. It was certainly a most unconstitutional exercise of power, and most unpopular, to open the letters in the Post-office, and therefore the Act of Parliament should be construed strictly. He w anted , to know from the Government and law-officers of the Crown what interpretation they would put on the Act of Parliament. -There was a Freat distinction between warrants to open particular letters which would pass through the Post-office on a particular day, and general warrants to open particular letters, directed to a particular individual.—(Hear.) The House should recollect what a struggle there was about general warrants as to service. He would call the atter.L tion of the House to the two Acts of Parliament on the subject. The first Act was the 9th of &nue, chap. 10, sec. 40, and the words of it were—" Except by express warrant in writing, under the hand of one of her Ma jesty'e principal Secretaries of State for every such open ing, detention, or delay. Could any one, giving a fair in ti-rpretation to those words, say that it meant that you were to have a warrant to be kept in force till revoked to open all letters coming in a particular handwriting . to a particular individual.--(Hear.) Now let them see bow this was altered by the statute proposed by the Hon. Metner fur Taunton. The House would recollect that that Act of Parliament - was an Act passed merely to consolidate Po s t•offiCe Acts. The words in that Act were, " to op ‘II, de :am, or delay letters in obed'ence to an express war, ant." Now what was meant by an expre-s warrant—it meant an express warrant to open letters, by . writing under the hand of one of the principal Secretaries of- State. all matters they must look back to the Acts of Parliament' which existed r S N. N ON. SATUR D.t Y CI, JUNE 15 before, and doing this they would find that there mu he I an express warrant for each orening.-L-(Hear, hear.) As he understood the Right Honourable G9itleman, he said that he issued a warrant against one or the individuals who was Lot now in existence, and it could have only reference to one letter. If trea son was suspected the Government could only act on in formation—that infortnation would be as to a p ' ticnlar day or hour such a lever • would pats through the Post•ofti3e. On that day it bs fotirul ther and that was the only pow• r given by the Act. This was a matter of deep coniideraion, and it therefore sh•uld be well considered. Mr. CHRIS TIE said that the Right Hon. Gentleman had on one occaiion st7th d that he was three years in the Home-office. and during those th ee year. he had expended but a trifling amount of secret servi , :e money. He could now acc , :unt for that in come quence of the system of espionage which was adopted. lie Nisheil tai linnw trim Un- 'Right Mut Ba ronet, whether ha , ingl,tated that he had is,m•d a wariant with rearct to one individual, he had is wet warrant; againg others, not stating names, and in lion many caves ? r. AT.T. AO E explained. Mr. DUNCOMBE saint. thot as he had no other way of obtaining the opinion i•f the House up in this very ihrty transattion,• upon %% hich all exlionation was re• fuse'l, he should divide the House upon the moti,n. The galb•ry was then &livid, het the motion llor t:d iourtnent mai negatived without iii vision, it being under stood.thal Mr. Duncombe would bring on the stib!eet on a future occasion, on going into Committee of Supply. BANK CHARTER. Mr. WODEEIOUSE gave notice•of an amendment on the th;rl claus:i of the Bank Charter Bill. • Mr. HUME gave a notice ri-specti;•g the min- Pill. Some mistake in the wording of th,‘ lion. Gen! lem ca's notic , ,:: caused mto.h Urughter. SUGAR DUTIES'. Mr. LA BOUCI! ERE said he w ished to rep at =t q tion he had formerly put, and to have an a:.swer e tillou e wit into Commiitt.e on the. Sn:fftr Bill. fle wished to know wi:ethfr, in teir Cu.:loin hotve there , A as au such thing zts z eextilica , e orlzin r quitej .as to prOuee imilorted from for.:ign e,am•rics ? _ _ _ Mr. GLADSTONE said that any i: crtirips of th . 3 kind we- , . e•mduoted 4 the 4. xpensc of the C,Ait.ittl-hou6l , au horiti s. Mr: LABOUCIIERE— Then there is no such certifi cate required ? Mr. GLADSTONE was understood to rely in the negative. • The Hou-e thin went into Committe,3 on the Sugar Duties Bill. On the first clause beieg propos. d, Mr.' PHILIP MILD.; rose to move—" That from and efter the 10th day of Nov., 1844, the ditty upon sugar, the produce of British possessions, be reduced to 20s. the hundred weight ; and, that the duties on sugar, certified to be the growth of China, Java, or Manilla, or of any foreign country, the sugar of which her Maje'ty in Council shall have declared to be adtntssible, as not being the produce of slave lab Our, shall be as follows : namely, brown, Muscovado, or clayed, the cwt. 30'. ; white elayed, or sugar otherwise prepared, and equiva'ent to white clayed sugar, the cwt. 345., with five per cent. thereon." lie said that as the Bill had barn allowed to pass throneh several stages without any diseussion being taken on the priucip'e of it, he trusted that the Committee would allow him to make some observations b..fora he pro ceeded with his amendment,—(Hear, hear.) There were several reasons which prevented him from concurring in the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In the first place, he did not think that that was the proper time to bring that question forward, unless her Majesty's Government were pre pared to look the whole question in the face, and to set it finally at rest.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He did not hesitate to tell the Government that if they were not prepared to uphold the West Indian colony by granting. to it sufficient protection, it WaS far better to throw off the mask, and frankly say so, than to encou rage a partial outlay of capital under the idea of a con tinued prohibition, which, in the end, must be irre trievably lost.—(Hear.) His Right Hoe. Friend at the head of the Government, when he .broueht forwerd the tariff, expressly stated that he thought the Govern ment ought not to look at ere , part if the queetion wtth out material)); consideriti , r the whole. L, weei,l have bern`a•mnch more straightforward course for her Ma= iesty's Government to have come clown on that occasion declaring that they wished to make some a'teration in the sugar duties, and to cheapen the article fur the con sumer, than asking fur the continuance of the income tax. His Right Hon. Friend, in the speech which he m .de in 1841 on this question, quoted several passages from a pamphlet which was notorious at the time, and finished his quotation with one which he would take the liberty of reading to the House, observing, that the Right Ilon. Baronet then expres-eel his satire,' a-sent in the view of the writer. "The presperity of the West Indians," said the writer, " can only be continued and ens :red by extensive and system..iie emigration, and by the temporary continuance of the present protective discriminating eludes upon sugar." They - were now about to extend a free system of emigration without continuing the discriminating, duties. The shortest period w4ich eould be allowed for the satisfactory werk ing of this experiment was two years; but it mutt be attended with great expense to the colonies, while ether countries would have the benefit of enurerense supply of labour at a very trifling expense, and thus be able to raise looduce at a much cheaper rate to supply tit.' marlwt which this country would °reit to than. They had been told, in the discussion on this subject, that this measure was a. st. p towards free trade. When Its coupled this statement with the measures which her Majesty's Government had brought forward, it did occur to him that the thoughts of the Treasury bench were running in that direction. If they were in favour of these principles, he fi r one could not blame them ; but he begged them not to ask him to go with them. If they intended to ~:bape their course in that direction he would ask them to carry out their principles a little further, and give their colonies the benefit of th e first steps in that direction. He thought that when an alteration of the duty took place the West Indian colonies were its much entitled to fair con sideration as the agricultural and other great interests of this country. A tax of 75 per cent. was imposed upon the staple article of production, and as the price diminished the per tentage increased. He had listen( d with considerable attention to the speech of his Right Ilon. Friend in introducing this measure, but he had told them nothing beyond the fact, that on the very day when he gave notice of this measure the price of sugar in this country was 2s. higher than in thecorresponding period last year, and that in November their treaty with Brazils would cease, and on that account it was incumbent on them to make some alteration. The President of the Board of Trade said that he was disappointed in his cal culation as to the supply to be derived from India. He believed that if they placed the sugar duties on a firm footing, within ten years they would give such a stimulus to its production in India as would secure to them a large supply. In 1836 the supply from India had been only 25,000 tons, and it was now 50,000 tons.—(Hear, hear.) By encouraging the growth of sugar in India they would be increasing the demand for English manufactures, which would not he the case if. they encouraged the growth of the su..ar in Java, because in that island a (Int), of 50 per cent., ad valorem, was levied upon all Bri tish manufactures. He thought this measure was uncalled for, because the supply of sugar for India would be greater than the demand. He thought the continued prevalence of the easterly winds was sufficient to account for the present. small excess of price, lie found that the stook of sugar in the United Kingdom, on the 12th June last, was 38,100 tons against 31,000 tons. the amount of the stock at the same period last year, and that in London alone, the excess of stock in January, 1844 and January, 1843, was 3,0t10 tons. The average price of sugar in 1841 was 385., in 1842 it was 375., in 1843 it was 36s , and in 1844 it was 375., being a trifle higher than it was in 1 , 443, but lower than it was in 1841 and 1842. On the Ist of June the stock on hand was 40,000 tons, and the supply this year would amount to 125,000 tons from the West Indies, 60.000 tons from Bengal, bO,OOO tons from Madras, 30 000 tons from Mauritiu., rnakitg altogether a supply of 260,000 tons. . The consnmpion iu 1843 was 202,000 tons. This, therefore, would leave an in crease over the amount of consumption of 58,000 tons on 31st December, 1844; the stock on hand at the ti me period last year amounting only to 40,000 tons. The Right Hon Gentleman might deny that the supply would be such as he had stated, but he had in his possession letters from the colonies confirming his statements. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colo nies, on introducing his measure relating to 'Canadian corn last session, had stated that a great protection ought to be ex tended to the productions of the eitlenics, and that they aught to be treated as integral portions of the empire. The Govern ment had now altered their policy, and seemed prepared to sa crifice the colonies for the benefit of the mother cow try. A few weeks.agit the duty had been taken riff :001. That was for the benefit. of the mother country; hut was it for the be nefit of the Australian colonies ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it not exposing them to foreign competition? The Government bad now eommenced operations against the West Indies. The House of Assembly of Jamaica had last session agreed to a memorial to her Majesty on the subject of the duties of that colony. He would read some extracts from tha' 'siemens', notwithstanding the remarks of the Hon. Mhmber for Wolver hampton, who stated that the remarks in it were exagger: ted. [The Hon. Member then i.roceeded to read extracts from the memorial in question, in which the memorialists;stated that several coffee and sugar plantations had been abandoned in conset,tenee of the want of a supply of labour, and that universal gloom pervaded the island. The memorialists concluded by stating that they always looked to their gracious Sovereign and to a Conservative Government, to afford them prinection. (This passsge was received with lull t ironical cheers and laughter from the Opposition.) The memorialists went on to state that a reduction in the duty on colonial sugar and coffee would afford them relief, but that, if a reduction task place in the duty on slave-grown sugar, it would ruin them, and rt niter nugatory the benefit of the slave emancipation.] The mea sure proposed by the Government would produce great dis satisfaction in the colonies. In order to show thas the state ments of distress were not exaggerated, he would read to them an account of the losses incurred during the last. year on twelve West Indian estates. These accounts had been furnished to him by one mercantile house alone. On the first estate the loss had been 2501. ; on the second, 2,420/. ; on the third, 832/. ; on the fourth, 5,083/. ; on the filth, 3,4701. ; on the sixth, 3,440/. ; on the seventh, 8,0181. ; on the eighth, 10,201/. ; on the ninth, 2,259/. • on the tenth, 442/. ; on the elkenth, 47. q. ; and, on the twelfth,. 7701. ; and yet the Bight Honourable. Gentleman would endeavour to persuade the House that the measure he proposed would secure the prosperity of the West Indian colonies. With respect to the certificate of origin, the general feeling was that of dissatisfaction and distrust. The colonists thought that the temptation al the amount of duty between 345. and 635. would be too great, and that all precautions against the introduction of slave sugar would be useless, and that it would inevitably find its way into this country. If the Government could not prevent extr naive frauds in their own Custom-house, how would they be able to prevent frauds in Custom-houses abroadi?—( Hear, hear.) He considered that there was a great probability of sugar bring imported from the States of Arne- . now. They might expect to see many shipn eats of sugar from that country. The Government might obtain a considerable increase of revenue from t is change, but he contended that this increase would be at the expense of the colonists Ile wished to my a few words on the subject of coffee. '1 he duty on coffee was reduced from eightpence to sixpence. He was wired that the.people ofthit country would not buy-Brazilian co ff ee , b ecal m o f its bad flavour. But this dietuabing oftlie duties , appointing to every interest it appred to. His Hon. Friend had the most pernicious effects. What cot:Vence (multi the said it did not assist the revenue, that it did not please the free merchants have :n the stability of the present state re thinom ? traders, though they would rote for it, and that it still less —(llear, hear.) The motion that he heel brought forward pleased the West Indian proprietors, because it admitted to the was the result of mature censideretion on tee I, trt of those . home market, at a reasonable duty, what had been before ex most. interested in the suhjoet. Other countries had a system eluded. When they di•cussed . this question, they must bear in of differential duties. L oo ki ng t o th e wo r ding f the 1311, he 1 mind that there was a great and growing feeling in tte was informed by those whom he consulted on the tuhject t at mind against any rntection beyond what the necessity of the the higher quality of Jere sugar would be introduced under case required ; and in fixing the sum which he thought the the Bill. tie thought, at all events, they should not - justice of the case required, he considered it better to fix be left to the whim of Cu-tom-home ollicers.—( Hear, it at the amount he had done than to be under the necessity of h e ar. ) Ile was told that compensation had been making further reductions hereafter. It was disagreeable to g iv en , but could that he called conmentatian which did not be placed to oppoahion to those with whom he generally acted, g i ve th e `Vest India interest one-fifth of what they ought to and for whom he had a' gr. at pers. nal esteem; but he eoult get ? lb thought that if they had a free system of immtgratien amuse the Hon. Gentlemen thatehe hael acted in the present in the West Indies they would not have so much to complain. case under the certain impression that the measure was one for ( Hear, hear.) But that was not allowed, and now their colo• their own ultimate interest. Ile believed the weret thing that niett would be worse than useless, unlesstliey were supported by a could happen for the colonies was, that sugar should rise in "ffiei ! d duty. In Ja ma i ca , T r i n id a d ant! Guiana, price, in this country, to the level at which it had been ; t ' hetr n ic t eo 7in labour was elef. an hour, while in Barbados it and whatever tee colonies might have suffered—% he was only 2 1. ; the consequence of this was that it occasioned 1 ever they might have loot by the suppression of the sys a difference in the value of estates. It had been stated that tem of apprenticeship, which was prematurely cut sho t— the legit, particularly that of Jamaica, had teen worn out. yet the feeling was strong that considerations of individual He had travelled over the island, and coal contradict that interest should give way for the general good of the community. assertion, They might be sure that as long as their col tries Notwithstanding alrthat had been said on the subject, he firmly existedthey would require protection. The Right Hon. believed that the measure was a sound one, and that it was nut Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, might suppose adverseoo the permanent interest of the colonies themselves. that his pre position would have the effect of injuring the He recommended the measure to the House, and he thought re enne, but he did not think such would •be the case. The the House would concur with the Government in the view he colonial sugar mmkets could not be he a worse condition than hal taken. they then were.. and the shipping interest connected with the Me. LABOUCHERE said the speech of e Right Weet 'mean trade was in a meat depressed state. He wished Honourable Gentleman had strongly tended to increase the the Right Chancellor of the Exchequer impression Ire felt, when the financia. statement of the Govern e w, in the West Indies, en then he ment was made, that the discussion of this question, and that ,u,:d pay G th en,,seem estates te t s h would see that those territories which formerly produced of the income-tax, (might not to have been separated. He the cane in abundence, were n ow overrun with wood regretted that the Goverurrient had severed these two questicins. and weeds. St. Domingo, formerly so productive, The House came with great eisadveniage to the discussion of was now in a most impoverished condition, which them, but they could not bele themselves. They were in might be chiefly attributed to the emancipation of Committee on the sugar duties, tied they must discuss them in the slaves. He die not come forward to ask any ex rbitant the beat mariner they mule. It sea, his intention to support protection in favour ef the. West Indian colonists. He only the motion of the Hon. Member for lir stol. The question was asked so much as would Screen them fiom total ruin. He had the choice between the measure of tier .'Majesty's Government hitherto given his consistent support to the Government, hut and that. of the Hon. Member, and he censidered the plan he beliemd it to he his bounden duty to oppose them on this Le' the Hon. Menther the best of the two. —( Hear, hear. ) oreasier. He felt it useless to appeal to the Treasury benches, He would now proem deo consider this question with regard as he knew he ehoirlii find no mercy th e re; lie felt it eepally to the biters-ta of the eon -urtfrt the West Indian interest, and useless to appeal to the Hon. Gentlemen opposOe, who were in the : T eepee, And, as compared with the et:lie:x . le of the Csovern. famine of is free trade in sugar. But he turned with some teeny, he theueto that the o ()position of the lion, Member for &Tree of eonfitterme to the agricultural' Members. —( Ironical Bristol would be far more beneficial to the consumer in this cheers from the Om:wirier). ) 1 h e y sur e ly ought to eupeort country, who e ieterests should be first in their regard.— the coloniete. as she. cam of these men might very soon be their (Cheers.) How the Right lion. Gentleman could argue that own.-(Lae,:zhirr.) The same principle applied to both. The the measure of the Government would be more beneficial to only &fee e se was, that liese we grow corn, there they grow the consumer was tohim persectle astounding.—(ilear, hear. ) sugar.—(llear, hear. ) The lion. Gentleman conclude d by Perhaps the Government inteneed to re-open this que-tion prneosing his amendmer t, and expressing his r egret that he had next year in conn xion with the income-tax, but it that were not hen able to address his arguments in a more effective manlier so, was there ever an important public interest treated ia such I to the Howe. a way as tee Wes' interest was by the present Govetn . Mr. BAILEY seconded the amendment, and oheerved that ment?—(Chi era.) I. was desirable they st.oulei have some the Right Hon. C;,rolernan, the President of the Board of explanation foam the Government ito the suliject, because the Trade, had. in cernbattine some aeteumenta of the N.,ble language used by the Government had me (tad conmeniatien Lord, the Member for the City of London. misquoted the re- ammo the mereliante, and produced a perfect magnatieen in turns of the price of American sugar, oe rather misrep-emented trade.--(Hear. hear.) The principle of the Government those rote ne. in ord. rto suit his own purpose. Ihe Right meastr ta, if principle it had, was that they should exelude Hon. Memb e r quoted t h e retorts o f the price of sugar at New shier-grown sugar, and i a-rel with their best customers to York, which set ferth that the price in that city was from give every encouragement to Lee labour produce. But so -355. to 40s. per acts, whereas th e average price in New Or- body blieved that they could obtain that object. Not a leans, as appeared from tete return., wag Wily "t's. per eAt.—, single Minister had said that in his conscieece he believed they ( Hear, hear. ) Th e li on . me m b er then quoted from the last would be able to do a ; but the Right Hen. Gentleman, the official returns o f the U n ited som a , which stated that in New President of the B and of Trade, said that if it came in it Orleans sugar was only tee cents per lb., or '2ss. per beat., and would no: be on their consciences. these decurnents further specified, that since the American • Mr. GLADSTONE denied that he said se. tariff had been passed the increase of sugar had been very great, Mr. LA BOUCHERE said he should he sorry to misrepre- Particulerly in the State of Louisiana. In truth, the Bill was sent the Right Hon. Gentleman. Fie was under the impute brought into th e House un d er a f a l se pretence-4 Hear, hear) sion that he said so ; but it was, at all ev nts, utt; ply absurd to —and the arguments of the Government in supporting it were suppose that they could exclude sugar. He held in his hand grounded upon f a lse data. Slave-grown sugar would not be rather a curious document. It. was an extract from the Ha• kept out of the English market by the 11;11. By this Bill vannah Price Current, of the 9th of May. This was when it Asa-erica would be enabled to send sugar to this country at a was understood what would be the general features of the cheaper duty than it could co me from our own colonies. If measure of her Majesty's Government. this were the case, then a vacuum would he treated in the sugar The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the market of America, and that vacuum would have to to Stied up measure of her Majesty's Government could not have been with the slave-grown produce of Cuba and Brazil. This Bill known then. would, therefore, be indirectly an encouragement to slave r y And Mr. LABOUCHERE said he thou g ht it was p rett y gene the slave-trade. Now, he wished to ask the Right. Hon. 13a- rally known what that measure would be, after the discussion ronet whether it was his intention to enter into a treaty of which had ti ken place on the subject of the Brazil treaty.— commerce w i t h B raz il ? eith e did so, the first article of that (Hear, hear.) At. all events, the merchant who wrote the treaty should be to place Brazil cn the footing of th e m os t fa- extract he was about to read, made a pretty accurate guess. voured nation. lie (Mr. !Ailey) thought the p eo pl e o f th e He said that during the last month large purchases of sugar eountry'had t o complain f t h e mous e which the Government had been made, and at a hither price, in consequence of the had taken on th e su bj ect. T o s h ow the necessity for this Bill, London advises of March, from which it appeared that there the Government oitght to have shown that the supply of sugar was an intention of an alteration in the English duties, which, this year wag l ess t h an t h e d eman d. This, however, was not though indirectly, would increase the quantity of Havannah the case, for th e returns s h owe d that the stock in hand this sugar exported to Europe.—( Cheers.) He was more inclined time last. year was 31,000 tons. while this year it was 38,000 to believe the merchant who wrote this, than the calculations tons. He believed that the vacillating and uncertain course of and prophecies of her Majesty's Government, who would per her Majesty's Government wou ld, if 1 eraisted in, involve a suede them that the system of certificates would effect the large portion of th e emp i re i n t he greatest destitution and exclusion of slave grown sugar from this country. It was a distreas. perfect delusion to suppose that they would have such an Mr. EWART could not support the proposition of the effect. He hoped they would have a more satisfactory expla- Hon. Gentleman, because it maintained a difference in the duty nation from her Majesty's Government than had yet been ob on sugar in one p ar t o f t h e wor ld and sugar grown in another. mined on the subject of those certificates. It was a system Ile did not believe that the proposition would be of that benefit entirely novel in their Custom-house regulations. The notion to the country w h ic h t h e loon. sup p or ters of it had anticipated. of certificates of origin coming from foreign ports, and de- The CHANCELLOR o f the EXCHEQUER thought pendent for their accuracy on the signature of foreigners, ex the speeches w hi c h t h e two Hon. Gertlemen who had pro- cept that they were to be seen by her Majesty's Consul, never, pesed the amendment had delivered, applied but ill t o t h e re- he believed, came into the head of any Government except solution which had b e , p submitted to the Committee that even- that of her Majes.y's present Government.—( Hear, hear.) ing. 'I he Hon. Member for Bristel had stated that th e reso- Then what a duty did they impose on her Majesty's Consul ? !mien of the Government would give protection to th e s l ave _ How was their Consul at New Orleans to act and decide upon trade, but he (the Cbancellor of the Exchequer) would the different representations which would be made to him ? ask whether th e H onoura bl e Gentleman's own pro- The fact was, that the scheme ot the Government would get proposition w ou ld t en d i n an y wa y to discourag e that trade? them into interminable difficulties with fore-gn countries. To come more m ess ily, h owev e r , t o the preposition then be- These who thought that the scheme of the Government was fore the House, if he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) were better than that of the Hon. Member for Bristol, were of prepared to agree to any further reduction of the duties on opinion that the sugar of Java, Manilla, and Siam, would not sugar he should not be w illing to make them as suggested. come in at the low duty of 30s, but at the high cluty of 345. Dui be think su c h re d uc ti o n desirable he should prefer to He (Mr. Labouchere);eloubted that it would be so. He held in effect it in such a wa y as to g i ve an advantage to the con- his hand a emir rit upon which reliance might be placed, of the sumer, and also ver y pro b a bl y t o throw some of the money into average price of the various descriptions of sugars in bond in the pockets of intermediate parties. He must, however, be the months of May, June, July, and August, in the eeara permitted, whilst s p ea ki ng to the proposition itself, to eongra. 1839, 1840, 1841, 1842, and 1843. Not to go thiough the tulate the House that there was so much egreement between whole, he would take that for 1e43, and he found by it that it and that wl ich he himself had had the hunt-or to submit to the average price of Java, Manilla, and Siam brown sugar in their consideration.—( Murmurs from the back. Ministerial bond averageet 19s per cwt. The price of white Brazil suear benches.) His Hon. Friends behind, by the prepeeitien which during the same month was 235., and of yellow sugar 17s . 6d. they had submitted, showed t hat th e y agree ne wi th hi m that The price of Havannah white sugar was 2r s., of buten, 19s. there ought to be a distinction made between- colonial and The consequence he deduced from tree e figures was this : foreign auger, at d that also agreed with him that whatever was that the greater part of the sugar produced in Java, Mantra, the reduction, it should be made es early as poasible His-Hon. and Siam;and in bond in London at that t me, must have more Friends behind hint also told the House that. he• thorrightly elesely resembled the brown sugars which would be intro estimated the amount of protection that theyaresired. - (Loud euced under the 30s. duty than the white sugar which would cries of " No, no," and expressions of surprise.) Why, they be introduce at 345.: His opinion was that they would have a proposed precisely the same amount of protection as he had considerably larger supply of brown Muscovado sugar at the propos, d, and the only distinction-between the two measures low duty than of the white sugar at :he high duty, end that was this, that he (the Chancellor of . the Exchequer) tub- consequently the consumer would be greatly benefited. —a mated a measure without a reduction of revenue. There But he would not consider exclusively the interests of the con might., perhaps, be si me fraction of ailifference between them. eumer. He would also consider the interests of the West but he confessed he looked upon it as of so minute a character India planters, and he rejoiced that on this on anion he could as not to be worth one moment's consideration ; and, there- support a plan that reconciled their interests with fore, he was justified in saying that even in the the interests of the consumers. (Hear, hear.) view of his Honourable Friends Ite hind him, ten Then, with regard to revenue, it was not all , ged by the Chan seillings • protecting duty wet looked upon as a'le- cellar of the Exchequer that he felt any great alarm at the quate nod sufficient. If then the protection was the motion of the Hen. Member for Bristol on accoun. of the re name in both cases—the same according to the plan of the Go- venue, nor in his ( Mr. Labouchere's) opinion was there any vernment, and the same according to the suggestion of his fear on that account. He would vote for the scheme friends—if they had the same advantages hereafter against come of the lion. Member for Bristol as 'preferable to that of the pining parties as they themselves proposed—what was the be- Government. Any attempt to distinguish het , een slave . nefit they pro, toed to attain by the course th ey were now pur- grown sug a r and free-labour sugar would be fraueht with diffi suineh? 'The end would he this, that there would be a loss to eulty and danger, and would be proved to be altogether nuga the revenue, no benefit to the consumer, and the duty that was tory. It was most important that there should be a permanen. sacrificed they hoped to get into their own pockets in whole or s ett lemen t of this question, mid confidence amongst the mar. iMpart. Now, in discussing the two proposals before them, it eantile interest was far better than a duty of Is. more or lessf was the duty of the House to consider how they would operate For the re esons be had given he should support the motion o on the different interests affected by them. •To begin with the the Hon. Member for Bristol.—(Cheers.) case of the consumer. With respect to his (the Chancellor of Mr. GODSON could not congratulate the body to which he the Exchequer's) proposal his friends behind him stated that in belonged on the Right lion. Gentleman's advocacy. It avae its working it wined only give to the consumer the advantage not pretended that this was anything more than a temporary oo in the pound. H e timely, admitted that the measure. It was under stood by all parties that it would be made benefit t was small, and not as good as m i e ht beer. been wished. known next year precisely upon what footing the duties we r e But his object had n e cessarily been two-fold—to consult the to be placed. lie looked forward to a time when there would ce mfort ot the consumer, and to rega r d t h e i n terests of the re- be a duty of 14s. or ss. and that change he believed would be e halfpeony venue. Now it was necessary to state that when he made up a real benefit to the consumer. In the meantime, he be his mind to propose a measure ha reference to the sugar duties lieved the alteration would not make a difference of more he acted under the pressure of a feeling which still exercised it- than 5,000 or 6,000 tons in the, year. The question was self poweieully upon him, that during the latter part of the year often staked why there should be any difference at ail between which had to arrive there would probably be a considerable the duty Ow colonial and that of foreign sugar. He thought se arcity'in the article of sugar. And this expectation he had the simple answer to that objection existed in the fact that founded, not ooloese statements. but on a careful consideration the colonies were their own. All the instruments used of facts communicated to him, and on a consideration of what in the production came from England : their rates were all had occurred in antecedent years. These expectations were the same; there was the same Church Establishment ; there confirmed by the %Veit iodise tarty them-elves. From the were, in all reseects, in fact, similar expenses ; and that best sources he could consult he had come to the conclusion being the case, he thought it was but just that there should that the supply of sugar for 1844 would be about 227. 00 tons; b e a distinction made between the colonies and foreign coun or equal to that which they had anticipated in 1843. Ile tries. He regarded the present measure as an indication Kell to the great drought in Jamaica, of what was to take place next year. If the the fai k lu n r e eof t t h h a e t cr o o " l ' i i s ng had been most extensive, and he could duty were reduced down to 15s next year, the free-labour speak with the more confidenc e on this point, because his own sugar would; of course, be admitted, and then would come the in ba fir one of the most fertile question of the admission of sugar from Cuba and Brazil, in portions partaken of the general unpro- whi c h the question of the slave-trade should riot be lest sight of. h i t t eadt a i ll the dis riot he referred to had He would not vote for the motion of the Hon. Member fur theyt,,,,,,h,fiahtitehw,hja.hhtwee:aseiarsnoiy,iu, fallen so, counted by hundreds they now only Bristol, because he thought that by doing so he would pledge counted by tens Ile had also been infoimed, on the very best himself to consent to a larger extension of the principle in authority, that a number of estates had been given up. An 1 future. therefore, when he haei to make his estimate of the probable re- Sir. BERNAL thought the arguments of his lion. and ceipts of sugar, he (mule not but come to the conclusion that Learned Friend were mostelnconclusive. Mille was such a friend they must nut calculate fir this year on a larger import than to a general settlement, why was he so enamoured of the pre fer the year 18 ' 3 - There were a number of persons, ho e a sent preposition ? Why did he not oppose this at ever, who complained strongly of the way in which the sugar tempt to take a tithe of the change on that duties were levied—of the ant utl discussions—( Hear, hear)— occasion when he expected a final settlement next upon the subject, ant of the unsettled state in which property year Hear.) They must look their difficulties in the face and trade were kept by it.—(General and loud cries of He considered the course advocated by his Hon. Friend oppo .* Hear, hear.") tie was ready to admit that the pretest in-- site one in which he was imperatively called on to concur. He security which existed on this subject was a great evil, and had heard it hinted on that side that there might be some that it was most desirable .to put those duties on a more stable conspiracy in the proposal of 345. in reference to the free footing. And when the time came that the income-tax must grown sugar of Manille and Java. He did not believe that he taLen into consideration, in connexion with the great sub- any conspiracy existed. The Hon. Gentleman then made a jests of the trade, commerce, and revenue of the country. it detailed statement of the process of claying and refining would be for the House to mike up its mind whether it-would auger?, snit explained the difference betwe, n clayed sugars, not recur, as regarded the s ugar duties, to that state of per- Muscovado sugars, and bastard sugars. He was surprised to manence to whaitmet f orm e r : ) , rebelled, butte which perhaps hear tee statement of the Hon. Member for Dumfries, that the h meet.: it Might pro p e rly p, efer to return.—( Hear, hear.) differential duty between the Muscovado and the clayed sugars h i m se what effectupon en of tits friende be- , had been reduced at the solicitation of the West India body. n would What would be He believed that a !elicitation to Chet effect might have ema the effect? Wi t t, t h a t du , log, the intervening p er i o d be- na t, d t r a m th e groce. s and the refiners, bet it had certainly have !t h h e e i e r. tween this and the ti m e they proposed that their scheme I not emanated from the West India body. The Right Hon. should come in's operation, they would paralyse the trade— Gentleman had sael that. the Custom-house officers could not !hey gave an intimation t o every man who was now about to , distinguish between the eluacovaio and the clayed sugars. huts not to do so. The effect of that would be to stint the , but he really could not imagine that there could market to the neatest possible degree, and all that incon- be any difficulty in distinguishing between them. If no veiiience would result t e the consumer which a contracted difference were made between cleated and Muscovado sugar, a market necessarily occasioned ; and this, too, would take great hardship would be infreted upon. the West India body. place precisely when meat mischief would b e occat i one d ; N o c l a y e d sugars were p re p are d i n the W e st Indies—he believed when, from the a bundance of ,rust, the den end for sugar none were prepared in the East Indies or the Mauritius, and it ought to be the greeted and the supply ought to be accorded to f would be a great hardship if the clayed and crushed sugars of the lergest e xtent pom iele. In considering this (petition they Siam, which had undergone a partial process of refinement, were bound to look at its effect on the reve nu e. He antiei- were admitted at the same duty as the Bluscovado sugar. The paled frein this alteration a loss, at first, of 66 eOOO/. to the I words of the Bill were " clayed, but riot reined ;" those words revenue, against which was to be placed the increase that were calculated to produce confusion. He protested against would probably arrive in the latter part of the year. It was I being fettered in any suesequent transactions by supporting necestary that. ,hey s h o al keep the revenue up to its usual 'this measure, except that he admitted that the Wert. Indians amount, or they won id n ot be able to give the House that could not expect any protection beyond 10a. He thought the fair opportunity of discussing the continuance of the West Indians ought to have some relief afforded them in the tax, which it was most d es irable the House shoultl have. With : article of rum.—( Cheers.) It was ridiculous that it should respect to the risk that it was said would arise from the admis• I be excluded from the markets of Scotland and Ireland by the sion of Java and Manilla sugars into the home market, he . differential duty at present existing—( Hear, hear)—arid he had made diligent inquiry into the subject, and he could not r Vra= also of opinion that molasses should no longer be excluded discover in the ware-houses of London any Manilla en .lava from the distilleries by the present absurd regulations. sugar of a higher quality than the usual sugar in the n arket. ' Mr. 130UVERIE, in allusion to the statement which had of any a ddi t i ona l it em b een ma d e , th a t there was a conspira c y among the West India He n e t db,i.d tariff;no t, therefore, tbt wau ldseoenityhe ec lea n dt e o ss g i r t e y at doubt and confusion. body to carry this motion, would observe, that although there Whether it might b e p o ssible to draw a'inore clear and 'deft- was'no direct evidence of conspiracy, yet, i: they admitted the nice distinction between the different sorts of sugar he did not ' doctrine of conspiracy as laid down in another country, there know, but it was a point well deserving consideration. At certainly was evidence of a conspiracy among the West India one period he made a proposition of that kind to the House, body to carry this motion.—(Cheers and laughter.) If he wh m kb howev er, .Lora John Hear, hear," could be convinced that the proposition of the Hon. Membe r from ere was a combination f or Bristol would not create an additional differential rd w as Russell.) not us favourably ell.il receive , l._(.. against it of ' ae em bers on both sides of the House ; duty, he would support it, but as far as he could understand it, arid his only consolation under the diffictilties of the slues- the effect of the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol Lion was the con f ess i o n o f Lord Sidinouth, in his place would be to create a differential duty of 14s. instead of one of in the House, that he thought the attempt was extremely 10s., as proposed by the Government, and, therefore, he should praiseworthy ' • and he regretted that he should ever have vote against it.—(Hear, hear.) In a revenue p oint of view, opposed it. Hi s H on . F r iend had entered into a variety of it was of importance that the money raised to carry on the topics that were ra th e r a pplicable to the general principles on Government should be raised in the manner the least bur which a country s h ou ld b e go v e rned than to the immediate densome to the people, but it was also a funlamental prin. question b e f o re t h e H ouse . Be knew that there was a great ciple that no portion of the money so raised should go to any objection to the principle of free trade, as applied to this and purpose except to the support of the S.ate.—( Cheers.) Now other questions. This might to some extent be owing to the what was the operation ot the differential duties? A differen obloquy the ph rase ha i l ac quired from the way in which it had tial duty of 41s. per cwt. gave the West Indian and the East been used. B ut h e was no', fur that reason, to be deterred Indian proprietors a monopoly of the market. Whatever frirbetween the con- amount of differential duty was Imposed , if it did not give a eibecause was "u heha i4le had tried to reconcile con- monopoly, it gave a bonus to the wh o le amount of the differen tltdein doing oi r t a m tt what ies. heit was thoi i h tending parties—to reconcile the interests of the producer with tial duty.—( Hear, hear.) ,He could not see any reason for that of the consumer—that he had exposed himself to the giving an additionel bonus to the West India proprietors. :putation of having brought-forward a- mourn -that was Even.. at &differential duty of 10s.- 6d:, which was.proposed by the Govcrrment, the West India proprietors had, during the last four year., received 2,030,C00i., and the additional half- Fenny proposed by the Ih.n. Gentleman would give them 1318,0001. more, which would be taken from the purposes of the State, and must be raised out of the pockets of the Ivo; le to supily the deticien,y. Now if evcryth'ing went well with the West Indians, there might be some excuse for continuing this system ; but they had always been complain , ..f suffering and loss since they hal teen under tiie system of protecti , n. It was useless for them to say that the abolition of slavery had produced these losses and s &rings. They made the same complAintsbAire slavery seas abviithed. He held is his hand a memorial from the West India proprietors, in 1401, con'aining the Sit 11•• complaints. ;t was clear then that they did not prosper under the system, and he wouLl reeom,nend them to try another. Let them try the system of free triale.— ( Hear, hear.) Why should not free trade answer with regard to sugar as nea as tt had with regard to silk ?—( Hear, hear. ) They had better at once make the change, and consent to an equalization of _ _ _ Mr. F. BARING was not surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be anxious to confine the discussion to the proposition immediatiately before the House, and should not diverge into a discussion vu the principles of the measure. He could net but recollect the arguments which had been used against the proposition which he had a bmitted to the House in 1841—how slightingly and contemptuously the arguments he had ventured to use had been passed over. He had been assured by the night Hon. Gentleman, the present Chancellor of ,he Exchequer, that there was no neces,ity for alteration— the prices would fall—that there would be an ample supply for the West Indian Colonies and for India, and that the most per fect reliance could be placed upon the estimated amount of the supply. Ile had ventured to suggest that the estimates might be exaggerated, and that the supply would not equal the de • mull. The. ISieht Hon. Gentlemen found that the arguments which he had then card were now used against himself by th e Hen. Gentlemen behind him. Night after night had he (Mr. Baring) been taunted with these estimates. and now the Right Hen. Gentlemen who had so taunted hies told him very coolly that they might be mistaken in their estimates. and that in fact, no t &lance whatever could he placed upon them. —(Loud cheers.) Another weighty areument was, that a great exeerimei t. vas vire , on in the West Indies, and they were a-ked how they could rec node it to their duty to introduce the croneetttioe of sieve-grown sugar pending that experiment. Wtat were they doing row ?-- ( Cheers.) The price of West India s gar must be regulated according to the proposed plan by the price of free labour sugar. Now, if they had as ample a supply of free-labour sugar as they wanted, its price must be regulated by the price of sugar in the markets of the world i th-t was, by the price of slave-grown sugar.— (Cheers ) The Right Hon. Gentleman gave a pro tection of 10, and a shade, which he calculated at 2s. Now he (Mr. Baring) had eropesed a protection of 125., so (het there was no great differenee between them. The great ar gument against his proposition had been. you are encouraging slavery. What were they doing now ? He admitted they were not doing it dirtnty. but they mete doing it ae surly as it they took 10,ee0 tons of slave-grown sugar. The Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool had told them that They were indirectly encouraging slavery, but the Noble Lord had given no notice of a resolution now, as he had in 1d41. ( Cheers and laughter ) 'I he Government had adopted a most. unfortunate course in stating that they would re-consider the question next year. Whatever they intended to do they should do at once, so as to disturb the markets as little as pos sille. They should not leave the sna'rkets for one whole year in fear of they knew not what.—(Cheers and laughter.) tie had heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that nothing could be more unfortunate than for a Government to hold out an expectation of change. At the commencement of the present session his Hon. Friend the Member for London bad asked the. Bight Hon. Gentleman a' the head of the Govern en , if he intended to alter the sugar duties, and the Right Hon. Gentleman had replied, that he could only suppose that such a question could be put by the youngest Member in the House. But the Hon. Member for London now had his revenge. The Right Hon. Gentleman would not tell him three months be forehand what he intended to do; nothing could be more in jurious to trade. But now for a whole year they left the colo nial interest under the announcement of the proposed reconsi deration ; nothing could be more injudicious or more inconsiderate. The Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down, and who had addressed the House so well—( Cheers) — had stated it as his opinion that there was concealed under the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol some intention of a proposal for giving additional protection to the West India interest. If he had the slightest idea that such would be the effect of the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman, he would not support it, as he intended doing. He did not believe it would give any additional protection to the West India in interest beyond reducing the price of sugar, and that was a legitimate advantage to which they were fairly entitled. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had fairly stated the pro position of the Hon. Member for Bristol, and he admitted that the protection proposed by each of them was the same. He feared the sugar of Cuba would come into this country.— ( Ironical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches. ) Yes, he did not wish to see the Government of this country defeated in its main object; and if slave-grown sugar was to be received, he wished it to be received only in a fair, open man ner.—(Hear, hear.) In 1841 the question of layed sugars was brought under his consideration, and he proposed a gene ral duty of 365. Between the time of his announcement of this plan and the period of its being brought under the full consideration of the House, he received so many, and such forcible, remonstrances, that be became perfectly cceivinced that it would not be wise and discreet to put all sugars under the same rate of duty. The consequence was, that though he had announced his plan, he made the desired alteration in it. The opinion of the late Mr. Hume, on which much weight should be placed, was, that there ought to be three scales of duty. The Chancellor of the Exch quer, it was true, told them that it was the opinion of the Custom-house officers that no difference of scale could be made. Well, he (Mr. Baring) was not disposed to place much weight on the opinions of these gentlemen. 'for when they understo d what the Chancellor oh he Ex, h .quer's opinions were, they generally controvert to mate theirs accordingly. What was imposs ble to-day with them might become possible tomnerrow. H held in bit hand an extract front the American tariff. and thete he found that the duties were divided into three classes. Nearly the same system prevailed in Holencl. He felt bound to say that he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer be haved entremely fair in his statement regarding the revenue lie entirely agreed with him in thinking that there would he a considerable loss in the falling off in the revenue, but he knee it e ould be only temporary, aid felt confident that the revenue would recover itself in the course of next year. He regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not based his system on a more definite and permanent principle. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that there would be a reduction of 600,000 i. by the reduction of colonial sugar, and they would get 20,(.00 tons of sugar in addition to what was at present re ceived. By this additional 20,000 tons we get back hoe,ooo/. of revenue, so that there was only a loss of 200,000/.—a very small risk when compared with the good it would certain y effect for the colonies. Mr. Huskisson was a careful, steady man, yet in 1829' he proposed a reduction on colonial sugar to 27e., and foreign sugar to 665. On that occasion Mr. Hus kisson was met by the argument of the reduction of the revenue. The change was made, and it was anticipated that 542,000/. would be lost, but there was not one-half of that sum lost. Ile hoped and believed the reduction of the Right Hon. Gentleman would be attended with all the success anticipated by him. Mr. GLADSTONE said the Right Hon. Gentleman had (and he was cot surprised at it) sought to distract the atten tion of the House from the real question under the considera tion of the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman talked fluently of frauds and certificetes of origin, but they had nothing whatever to do with the motion of the Hon. Member for Bristol. The great charges against the Government were that they disturbed and unsettled public mind and left the colonies to the chance of the future. Now the fact was the Government could not have made a final settlement of the sugar question at present—the consideration of the income-tax ;thine . was sufficient to prevent a decisive arrangement. He did not think it would be justice to the country to agree to the proposition of the. Hon. Gentleman. If they did so, they would take a short-sighted view of the interest of the colonial producer. He granted that they had no reason to suspect that there would be a deficiency of supply, if they measured the supply by the supply of former years. But was the demand likely to be the same as in former years ? Had there not been a great change in the state of the country? Now what was the state of the market for the four months during which the sugar duty remained in a state of uncertainty—that was the four months which elapsed before the declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ? If they compared the prices of the four months of this year with the corresponding four months of the last year, they would find an average rise of id. in the prices of the present year. He therefore said that they might fairly expect a scarcity this year. A gentle man named Ripley, with a deputation from Liverpool, had waited upon him (Mr. Gladstone) upon this subject, and he stated that the measure of the Government would have the effect of reducing the price of sugar lid. per pound, taking the prices then ruling. He would beg the House to remem ber that this year the Gazetted average price was higher than it was last, when it was known that the measure. which was to be proposed would not be a permanent one. One great object of the proposal of the Government was to so arrange as to be a great benefit to the consumer. The Go vernment had been induced to propose this measure from a sense of the great evils attending an absolute state of uncertainty. This Bill went to create a permanence in this great branch of our commerce. It would establish the duty which was to he imposed upon sugar the produce of slavery, and the sugar the prheluce of free labour, and also to fix the amount of protection to the colonists, which was to be main tained. He complained that the measure of his Hon. Friend the Member for Bristol would have a most injurious effect on the trade in sugar in this country. He asked his Hon. Friend the Member for Bristol whether the reduction which be proposed in British Plantation sugar was to be a permanent arrangement ? He would take the answer eitherone way or the other. Did his Hon. Friend contemplate a further reduction in the duty met year? If he did, then what became of argument respecting the permanent settlement of the question ? It he did not contemplate a further reduction in the duty, then he (Mr. Glad-tone) said that his Hon. Friend was not just to the colonists in the protection which he imposed, nor was 1 e just to the consumer in this country. The Moro Member for Bristol had not given any reason for re-opening the question of thooe duties at a future time. Re ference had been made in the course of the debate to a letter which was published that day (Friday) in the Times newspaper. That letter was written by a gentleman who had long been connected with the West 'lndies. But that Gentleman had assured him this day, that although he disapproved of the pro position of the Government, he would prefer it to the measure of the Hon. Member for Bristol. lie did not object so much to the principle of classification as to the mode of classification proposed by his Hon. Friend the Member fo r 13rit- o 1 A d log to the present law great injustice was done to the producers of inferior sugar of British colonies. T he distinction proposed by Hon. Gentlemen opposite would operate most injuriously on the colonies. He thought that the measure of the Govern racist was the best that could be proposed, and he called on the Committee to support it. Mr. M. GIBSON (who rose amidst loud cries of " Divide, divide") said that he had crone down to the House disposed to vote for the motion of the Hon. Member for Bristol, but, on examining snore carefully the terms of the motion, and looking to its objects, he found that the object of the lion. Member, and of those who supported him, was to give the West Indies a protection of I4s. per cwt. A gentleman in the City, who was well acquainted with the subject, told him that he (Mr. M. Gibson) was not " awake to the trap" for the free traders. --(A laugh.) When he saw the anxiety of the West India in terest to oppose this proposition, be looked on with suspicion. --(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, regarding as he did, that both the propositions before the House contained the principle of protection, but believing that the measure of the Government went further in the direction of free trade than did that of the Hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Miles), he should certainly give his support to that of the Government. Mr. HUME said that his own opinion was, that the mea sure would greatly assist trade, and that, say what they might, or do what they might, there would be no pro hibition to slave-grown sugar. Indirectly it would be admitted. Indeed, his opinion was, that there would be a very considerable addition to the supply of sugar. Slave-grown and free-grown sugar would get into the market alike. But what the House ought to consider was not the interest of the West Indian planter, or any of the many inte rests that bad been referred to in the course of the debate, but the interest of the consumer. That was the only light in which they ought to look at the question. The plan of the Hon. Member for Bristol be (Mr. Hume) did not hold to be a good one. •, But a good sound plan never would be got until they bhanged - their plan altogether. During the time he (Mr. Hume) had been in that House, he had witneeset three attempts to make aesriminating duties, but they had all felled. Under the plan of the Government there would be a large supply p w e a n e n e y e r p t e a r i n p a o l u m e7l l i;i im th ni e of sugar from America, and the consumer e p d r i i a c t e el o y f t s o ug h a a r v . e a benefit of one half- Mr. COLQUHOUN said that whilst the friends of the Government plan trusted that by it the consumers would have their sugar at a halfpenny per pound less, it ought also to be known that by the plan of hie Hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, the reduction to the consumer in the price of his sugar wou ld be one penny. The Right Hon. Gentleman had s t ran g e ly enough stated that this year's supply of sugar must be locked upon as a decreasing one, whereas it would turn nut to be an increasing one. The stock of sugar was greater now than it had been ireviously knots n to be. We had a stork at the present moment of 40,t 00 tons, and yet this was the time selected for the introduction of the Government measure, and fur the singuler statement in support of it made by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It had been said that the rod was over them; but they were driven by the roe of stern neeetsitt. They could not go beyond the amount of duty named by the Government. He had heard nothing in the arguments of either of his Hon. Friends that induced him to change his resolution to vote for the amendment of the Hon. Member for Bristol.—( Hear.) Mr. ESTCOTT said lie knew that many West India pro prietors had been ruined. He knew, also, that it was the duty of the Government to apply a remedy to their case. They had been reduced to this condition under a p-ohibitory system, and be wished to ask the Hon. Member for Bristol whether be thought his proposition would be the cure for the condition in which they were placed ?—(Divide, divide.) Dr. BOWES ING rose amid• loud cries of "Divide." He said they had a right to take the benefit of the declaration. of the Hon. Member fur Bristol, that he did not mean to aug ment the amount of protection; but it was perfectly clear that a duty of Ios. upon 20s. was a somevrliat greater amount than his. upon 245. He felt a great disposition to support his Hen. Friend, because a reduction of duty would tend to cause a re (Weikel of cost.—(lear, hear ) The amount of duty was one of the elements of price, and whatever diminished the duty must diminish the price of an article. At that hour of the night, and with the House so impatient, lie should not detain it, except to inquire what the Hon. Member for Bristol, with such a re spensibility resting on his shoulders, meant to do with the pm position of his Hon. Friend? Mr. COLLEI T said. as - a free 'trader, he should support the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol. Mr. JAMES said he shout; not attempt again to move the flinty hearts f her Majesty's Government with the bad case of the West Indian proprietors, but he wished to make one re mark on something that had fallen from the Right Hen. the President of the Board of Trade. He understood him to say that next year it. was in contemplation to apply the principle of an ad valorem duty to sugar. If he would do that he should have his vote. He would also ask one question. Was this foreign st gar to be brought in in foreign vessels, or was it to be imported in what were called foreign bottoms? Mr. GLADSTONE said it would be imported according to the provisions of the navigation laws. Under certain con ditions it would be all° sed to be brought in foreign vessels. Mr. HAMPDEN said he was unwilling to enter into the subject at all, but he was urged to it by the instinct of self preservation.—( Hear, hear.) He avowed at once that he had e personal interest in the question.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He did not ask them then for any deference; they might re ceive his arguments with all the distrust and suspicion which arta bed to the opinions of an interested man.—( Hear, hear.) As for his facts, be should only use those that were deplorably notorious.—( Hear, hear.) He should not go into the whole question of the policy of commercial restrictions. He should only ask them not to enforce them with greater stringency on the \Vest Indies than on any other country. They must re member that they could not apply the same principles now, in their present complicated circumstances, that they could do if they were Leginning to establisn a system of trade de novo. With the higlr prices and -heavy burdens which existed in this country, it would be impossible for them to con tend with other nations without protection. They Were de priiing the West Indian interest of protection, and the conse quence was that the proprietors were abandoning their estates. If the object of the Government was to benefit the consumer, they could effect that object by adopting the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Bristol, and at the same time !cave a small profit to the NV est India proprietors. He rose with pain to oppose her Majesty's present Govern ment, but he thought their conduct relative to the West India interest, was cruel, unjust, and tyrannical.— ( Hear, and cheers.) He had on more than one occasion voted with her Majesty's Government against his own con scientious judgment.—(Great laughter and ironical cheering.) He repeated it, and he would tell why he did so. It was be cause on certain important rational questions the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government could take a wider survey of those questions than he could, and had also access to sources of information beyond his (Mr. Hampden's) reach. For these reasons he considered it more'prudent and patriotic to surrender his own opinions to the Right Hon. Gentleman's judgment—(lronical cheers.) But there were certain ques tions upon which he could not vote with the Government—as the New Poor-law and the present question.—(Cries of Question, question," " Sugar, sugar. ) He considered British merchants more likely to come to a sound conclusion on this subject than any Minister, however large his comprehen sion. If the cheapening of sugars to the extent of a penny were to great a boon surely this country should contribute something towards the national benefit. Lord JOHN RUSSELL was not one of those who blamed the Government for having proposed an alteration in the sugar duties. He did not think that the reasons given in favour of these proposed alterations were so strong as those which had been urged in 1841 in favour of a similar motion, hut they were nearly as s•rong, and of a very simi ar character, and, therefore, he did not blame the Government for having eroposed the alteration—( ear. )—but he did think that the manner in which they had brought the proposition forward, the nature of the proposition itself, and the proposal that another alteration should be made next yeer, had introduced great dif ficulties into the questioe.—( Hear, hear.) \\ ith re eard to the question before the House to-night they nad to consider the proposition of the Government, on the one hand. and the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol on the other. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Presi dent of the Board of Trade, following the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had shown that the great objection to the proposi tion of the Hon. Member far Bristol was the evil that must follow from the reduction of the duty not taking place before November. No doubt some evils would follow from that pro emition, but alb( were the inevitable results of the manner in which the proposition of the Government had been brought forward. If that proposition had.been similar to all former propositions of a similar nature which had been brought for• ward for the reduction of duties, the reduction would have taken place at once both on foreign and colonial sugar. Bat the House bad followed the guidance of the Right lion. Gentleman opposite, and had adopted the proposition of the Government, and made a distinction between free labour and other sugar, and the Hon. Member for Bristol. :lad, consequently, been obliged to frame his proposition accord. in. to that decision. Having so framed it, it appeared clear that the reduction would not be less than 9s. The reduction of duty p-oposed by the Hon. Member for Bristol would give a reduction of Id. per lb. on sugar more, which would be a great advantage to the consumer, and on that single ground he pre ferred the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol to that of the Government.—( Cheers) But the Hon. Member for Manchester said that the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol would give a greater protection to the West India interest Now, he did not think that the proposition would give any greater advantage to the West India interest than the proposi tion of the Government. He did not think that the Hon. Mem ber for Manchester was well founded in his facts. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had stated the subject with great fairness ; he had stated that the protec tion given by the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposition, and that given by the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol was equal ; therefore, in point of protection, the two propositions were equal—there was no superiority of protection afforded by the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol. —( Hear, hear.) His Right Honourable Friend the Member for Taunton had stated that the sugar imported from Siam, Java, and Manila would, in general, be brown sugar, and not white clayed sugar, which was imported from Brazil and Cuba, at.d the Right lion. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had as-erited to that statement. It would be of little advantage to add anything to the authority of the said state meets, but the returns of the imports of sugar into the United States from Siam, as published in the newspapers, showed that .he sugar from that country was chiefly brown, and not (flayed sugar. It would, therefore, follow that there could be no great advantage in the way of protection in the 14s. as compared with the 10s. duty. If, therefore, only the sugars of Java, Manilla, and Siam, were admited, there would be nothing gained in the shape of protection by the adoption of the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol ; but if the clayed sugars of Bristol and Manilla were to come in, then, in deed, it might make a difference. On the whole, he thought the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol was more ad vantageous to the consumer, and,therefore,he shouldsuppert it. The peat advantage gained by the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol was, that it would increase the consump tion. The Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Boardl of Trade said it was impossible to consider this question in a. large and comprehensive manner, because it would be necessary in that case this year to consider the question of •the income tax. It would be very desirable that the House should know whether or no they meant to continue the income-tax, and he saw no just reason why - they should not state it. 'I he pri ssnt proposition created great alarm, among tho sugar growers, and it was calculated to prevent capital from beiog employed—to diminish the energies neces .:ary to well-directed enterprise, and had already produced great disturbance in the market. He saw no reason why the - whole system should not be considered and finall y settled this year. lie did not say that the proposition of the Hon. Member was a perfect settlement of this question, but in the difficulties in which the House was placed, he considered it preferable to the Government proposition, and should vote for it. Captain BERKELEY would support the Government pro. posit ion. Mr. MILES replied. In answer to a question of the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, he would say that he did not intend his proposition, if carried into effect, should be permanent. Captain GLADSTONE then rose, but was not at all audible in the gallery. Mr. RICARDO rose, but was met with loud cries oat " Divide, divide," and great uproar. Captain BERKELEY—If this debate is not allowei to Be on, I shall move the adjournmeet.—(Uproar.) Mr. RICARDO said that before he could support the amend. trent of his Hon. Friend he wished to know whether his Hon. Friend would be willing to give up the 45., for if he did not consent to do so the amendment, in point-of fact, would be as establish a differential duty of 14s. per cwt.--( Great uproar.) Lord HOW ICK rose amidst great uproar, and said I only rise to explain to my Hon. Friend that he is in a mistake as to the form we now are about to vote. The Hon. Gentlernatt has moved certain substitutions for the clause as proposed by her Majesty's GOvernment, and the question w ill now be pat that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question; and if we have a majority ,on the first question and negative the Government proposition, it will then be competent for any Hon. Gentleman who wishes to propose an amendment ora the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol, to move.to leave out any part of that proposition. The question, there. fore, upon which we are now to vote is not the adoption of the amendment of the Hon. Member for Bristol, but aye or no, will you, or will you not negative the plan of her Majesty's Government. As I believe that p lan to be a bad one, I shalt vote against. it, but I am not pledging myself to adopt this amendment of the Hon. Member for Bristol without alteration or substitution. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. The Committete then divided, when the numbers were— For the original motion 221 Against it ........... .. 241 MAJORITY AGAINST TUE GOVERNMENT The announcement of the result was received with tree mondous cheering. Sir R. PEEL said:that the Dissenters' Chapel Bill was ked for Monday next, but he thought that the resolution of this night was of so much importance that the Committee theta take precedence of the other business. THE SALMON FISHERIES BILL. The house having resumed, The Salmon. Fisheries (Scotland) Bill, after a brief can. versation between Mr. Warburton Mr. Drummond, and the Lord Advocate, passed through C ommittee. COMMERCIAL MARINE COMMITTEE. Mr. HAWES, in resuming the discussion on the nominse tion of this Committee, complained of the, partial coliplezies 3