The Sun. — London, England, 1839-08-09 00:00:00

sllegecithat it belonged to the Crown, acting by th e a d v i ce O F its responsible Councillors., to pronounce upon that difference, and that Parliament ought not to have been brought in to ( n'Pouse th e op i n i on of the Crown and identify itself with • aLodevig measures which belong ra th er t o t h e respons ibl e that e_rs of the Cro wn . —(H ear .) H e proposed to get rid of , . abjection, by entirely altering th e pream bl e o f t h e B i ll which he now proposed to bring in. He proposed that the Bill s hould be ent i re l y Parliamentary, merely reciting the expe diency of giving certain powers to the Crown and the Courts 6,n of England and the Crown of Portugal. He hoped ti two circu ms t ances wou ld remove t h e objee- oos which the House of Lords felt, and that this )nouse might be entitl e d t o h ope t h at t h e house of Lords would not refuse the means by which it might be carried out. —( Hear, hear.) He should at that late hour have contented himself with this statement, but he felt it necessary for his own v indication, and for the vindication of this House, to explain the course of p rocee di ng which was adopted in relation to this Bill. (1 was objected that the Bill was making war by Act of Puha m eat. Those w h o made such objections seemed to have forgot ten atht the Bill i tself arose out of Parliamentary proceedings. 1 Last Session o f P arl i ament, by addresses from both Houses of,, Parliament, b rought to the not i ce of the Crown the fact that Portugal had refused to complete an ade quate t reaty to put down the Slave Trade. He had then stated th at the ( . 3 overnmnent would endeavour to prevail upon Portugal t o s i gn such a treaty, and if they failed, that they Wo,uldeome to P ar li ament for powers to carry out the ob j ect ; and in reply th ey were assured that if they were obliged to come to Parliament that such powers would at once be given. In the early Part of the present Session he had stated to the House t at they h a d failed in obtaining such a treaty as was ne cessary. H e then said he had a Bill in preparation, but that he wished to postpone it until the whole of the papers had been laid on the table. Those papers had been laid on the table, but they seemed to have escaped the notice of those who said they were making war by Acts of Par !lament. With respect to the Bill itself, if it was any departure adopted, the usual proceedings of Parliament, it was not hastily sfopted, but was adopted after long consulation not only with his : ,,OWn political friend, but with those who did not usually i act t!,`',ttle Government ; they all preferred the preamble as it !""°- That House, however, world easily make such an al teration irs the preamble as was necessary to obtain unanimity. .--:-.( Hear.) F rom the perfect unanimity which existed on the iiill in that HMIs; it had passed almost sub silentio, as all parties knowing its necessity were anxious that no time should w ise lost waiting furan Gppoit mity of discussing it. Portugal as baund by different Trea`les with this country to ;. j o s ?lish th e slave trade—to do all in her power to utterly abc ,hn 't- Tho se st i pu l at i ons were not ma d e gratu i tous l y — we a l f made great sacrifiees.—( Hear.) We had given her nearly 00 a million of money, besides various sums, amounting to d ' t fti , to her merchants for seizures, which were consi ered not strictly regular. Tee treaties of 1815 and 18.1,,7 contained engagements stringent enough for car ry. g out the purposes they had in view. Portugal had !•toelatod in a greater degree than any country in the history of ,/! e civilized world had ever before violated a solemn treaty. /1 believed that no such flagrant breach of faith had ever itee s n shown by any civilized nation. Instead of abolishing or atteruptiug to abolish the Slave Trade, she encouraged it ; and ? w , i ng to the influence of those who had been enriched by the ninanurnan traffic, her flag had become the Slave Trading The for the rest of the world.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Trad e • had encouraged that trade, and now not a slave tut log vessels crossed the ocean, but carried the prosti cd flag of Portugal.—( Hear, hear.) During the last year, non less tha n 10 0,000 Africans had been carried from liberty anl me to slavery in Brazil or Cuba, under the flag of Portugal. Such was the manner in which the negotiations had been en tered into, and such the manner in which they had been violated. The Government had made many attempts to per suade Portugal to do that which she ought to have done of her Own accord, but from Government after Government they had met with refusals, one after another raised objection after objection of the most unfounded nature, and allegations totally devoid of truth. She was asked to make the slave trade piracy. No; she objected, because the punishment was capital. They pressed upon her to make the punishment a severe secondary one, as in E ng l sn d , or to ma k e it a piratical offence— that was an offensive term and could not be agreed o.nd They proposed even to restr i c t t h e r i g ht o f searc h, avvould agree to no mixed commission, because France ' 413 allow e d h er own tr ib una l . Throughout ' the whole 1 2f the negociations, it was eviden that there was .a fixed and obstinate determination to procrastinate and d s no thing. The Government had even told Portugal that if it did not consent to fulfil her engagents this country would take the matter indo its hands, therefore they were not chargeable with coming hastily down and proposing coercive measures. It was quite evident that Portugal was determined not to consent, but to let this country take redress by her own means. He did test believe that the Government were to blame, but they were con trolled by a domestic power which had been made stronger than themselves by the profit upon the inhuman traffic, and he fully believed that the measure would not only be beneficial to Portugal, but would be acceptable to the Government and the nation. Portugal had no necessity for slaves. The greater Portion of the ships engaged in the Slave Trade under her flag belonged to Spain and Brazil—to pirates of all stations or no nation as suited their purposes, and Portugal had no more interest in them than this country had.—( Hear, hear, hear.) They were going to do nothing to Portugal which she had any right to resent. The powers they asked for by the Bill were absolutely necessary for the purpose of carrying out the objects both Houses of Parliament • had so much at heart, and therefore he trusted th e other House would cordially concur hi the Bill. It was true the Crown might by its prerogative take measures Which would most effectually put down the slave trade, but there were many difficulties in the way. In the first place the officers under the Crown might be exposed to vexatious pro ceedings in the Courts of Law in this country, and he was sure that neither House of Parliament would wish to em ploy the officers of the Navy to execute its orders without being sure that the execution of these or ders should not be attended with any consequences person. ally inconvenient to themselves.—( Hear, hear.) Next, it was true that they might capture ships, but it would not be fitting that this country should& me ships prima facie the property of subjects of another state and deal with them, without having proved before some Court of Record, the ground of such proceeding, the fact that these ships were engaged in acts which rendered them liable to seizure. The House of Lords feeling a becoming zeal for the honour of the country and the dignity of the Crown, would not wish the Crown to take steps which might expose this country to imputations there would be no possibility of disproving. It was also necessary there should be an enactment to define that which should constitute a slave trader, because it was not merely having slaves on beard, but being equipped in a particular man ner.—( Hear, hear.) But it was necessary there should be a legislative sanction to empower the Court to determine that such Ships should be deemed to be a ship engaged in the slaver t trade, a : i and condemned on that ground. It was quiteae the ea power of el h was just and right that the Crown should h r giving the same bounties to those who seized these ships as in other cases. These were the pow, rs which were required, and these powers he was convinced would be sufficient, and would enable the Crown to put down the traffic in slavery under the Portuguese flag, and a great object would be accomplished. H e was aware that it was said that the trade when driven one flag, would seek refuge under another ; but if from the y did, they might have no flag—they might divest themselves of every document which should enable the captor to prove they belonged to any particular nation, so that they might not be brought before the tribunals of any country or a mixed commission. But he should propose a clause to meet that, the last refuge of despairing crime.—( Hear, hear.) The clause would enac' that any ship taken under thes e circumstances should be dealt with as if an English trader, provided that if she proved her na tionality she should not be adjudicated upon by our Court, but be dealt with as before provided. And this could not be construed as an interference with nationality, be cause if a ship cast off her nationality a complaint could not be made that her nationality was not respected.—( Hear, hear. ) He trusted the time had now arrived when each nation would prevent the slave trade being carried on under its ' flag. Treaties for the purpose had been con cluded with Chili, Venezuela, and Buenos Ayres, Mexico, although she had not concluded a treaty of execution, had concluded a stipulation by which she obliged herself to co-operate with us in the abolition of the Slave Trade, and he trusted that all the States of South America would adopt the same course. He was aware that the North American flag had been much resorted to, but he could not hesitate a moment in believing that it would use all the means which it possessed to put down this abuse, for which purpose they had already taken steps. If these powers were granted, he trusted they would be sufficient. They were simple and short ; the whole Bill might be contained in a sheet of paper ; but that sheet of paper would become a potent spell and give this country the power of putting an end to a system which no imagination could conceive, and the enormity of which: no tongue could adequately ex press,--(Hear, hear.) He trusted the Bill would pass unani mously in this House and receive the assent of the other House of Parliament. Sir S. LUSNINGTON cordially concurred in the sentiments of the Noble Loid. Since the period of the treaty there had been 2,000 ships with the Portuguese flag engaged in this traffic, and which had carried not less than 1,000,000 slaves, of whom not less than 120,000 had died on board.—(Hear, hear.) The trade, in fact, instead of diminishing, had increased, an d h e held in his hand the Shipping Gazette of Rio Janeiro of the 31st of May, 1839, which stated there were G 3 Portuguese vessels there at that time, 59 of which, he had the best authority for saying, were employed in the slave trade There had been a gross infraction of the treaty ; not only had there been that infraction, but Portugal had mocked and insulted this country by pretending to have abo lished the trade.—( Hear, hear.) He thought there had been an entire misapprehension in the House of Lords with regard to the former:Bi.l. That Bill had not at all contravened the customary course of legislation. That Bill had not at all at tempted to do by Act of Parliament what the Crown might do by prerogative, otherwise, as a constitutional lawyer, he would never have supported it.--(Hear.) The Government had adopted a wise course id endeavouring by pacific measures to attain that en;l which every one must wish to see accomplished before they had iecourse to any other. It was high time that irifamoustraffic was put an end to, for it was not only a trade car. Tied on by barter on the coast of Africa, but private vessels wer e fitt e d cut, to seize the smaller vessels, thus com mitting a double robbery. In c onclusion, t the Right Hon. Gentleman expressed his c i o i nv:e ion that the Bill would become law wh en it was of his Nobl e Friend ri g h t l y rd understood, and the explana tions become known to Members of the other Pa l Palmerston) c Douse.—(Hear. n)g it Sir R. INGLIS was eertainbtadh svhen the misapprehension under which the other House labouredagreed to . was cleared away, the Bill would bees aiusly eivet.nii3saTrelbieyeeshtso.uld The confine thentsol to mere Legislat ive ted country should Trepare for war, but what had b een it need stated not by y e resorted to. He fully concurred i n the Noble Lord. Captain PECHELL said it was incumbent on the House to pass this Bill which would perhaps remedy the inconveniences arising from the proceedings in another place. They ought to show that they did not quail before th e mighty power of Portugal and the Empire of b Brazil.— ( Hear and laughter. ) The }k m A nd Gallant Mem b er trus ted that the Noble Lord would force tLreugh the Bill without going through the usual forms. Sir T. ACLAND hoped that the present day would not ter minate without the Hal being completed and passed through all its stages. ' Mr. P. HOWARD thought the progress of the Bill ought to be ac ce ll era t e d, so that it might be immediately s ent to the other branch of the Legislature withiart delay. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. Lord PALNIERSTON then gave notice that he should this day move the suspension of the Standing Orders with respect to' the Bill. 'Ole Bill was then brought in and ordered to be read a second time t flay. The linuso adjourned at a Quarter past Two o'Cloak. HOUSE OF LORDS, Auousr 8. The LORD CHANCELLOR too at Five o ' c l oc k . k his seat on the Woolsack A Message from the House of Commons brought up the Lower C anada Government Bill, the Custody o f Infants' Bill, th e C athedral and Ecclesiastical A pp(,in,;:nents' Bill, the L on d on and Blackwall Commercial Railway B i „ . , and . the City of London Police Bill, with their Lordships' amendments agreed to. HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS. The Duke of ARGYLE stated, iu a very low tone of laww-__ The Bill having passed through the Committee withou amendments, the Report was received, and the House re. sumed. POSTAGE DUTIES BILL. Lord DUNCANNON moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Postage Duties Bill. The Bill passed through the Committee without amend. ments, the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow and the House resumed. Lord ELLENBOROUGH presented a petition from certain stationers in London and its vicinity, praying that the LegislAure should not adopt stamped paper or enve lopes under the new penny postage system. PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of Lord DUNCANNON the Public Works ( Ireland) Bill passed through a Committee without amendments, was reported, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. JURORS AND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of Lord DUNCANNON the Jurors and Juries (Ireland) Bill was read a third time and passed. SHANNON NAVIGATION BILL. Lord DUNCANNON moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Shannon Navigation Bill. In doing so he was quite certain it was unne cessary for him to occupy the time of the House in entering into any details. The great object of the Bill was to open one of the finest rivers for navigation in Ire land, in which not only Ireland but Liverpool and all Eng land were deeply interested. The Bill had been framed under a Report of a Committee appointed by the House of Commons in the year 1830. The expenditure was calcu lated to be about 584,0001, which was proposed to be advanced in the first instance by Government in Exchequer bills, and the half of which was to be raised in proportions by the counties.through which the Shannon passed, and to be repaid to Government from those sources. Tlie Duke of WELLINGTON approved of the gene ral nature of this Bill, but he could not but make an obser vation upon the enormous funds which it was proposed to advance for it. He could not see that so large a fund as 600,000/. should be advanced in Exchequer bills at once, and he would therefore recommend that the issue of those Bills should be thrown over a larger space of time. The Marquis of L A NSDO WNE observed that although it was necessary to give the power by this Bill to issue the Exchequer bills, yet it was not intended that any large proportion of those bills should be issued at once. Supposing the works to proceed with all possible speed, it was not con templated that more than 60,0001. would be required in the course of next year ; and it was calculated that the work would extend over a period of four or five, or six years. Lord DUNCANNON said that the money was to be lodged in the Bank of Ireland. _ _ Lord E L LE NB OROUG H saw no provision in the Bill by which it was imperative that the money should be lodged in the Bank of Ireland, or that the Commissioners might not call for an immediate issue of the whole amount ; therefore, he thought clauses to meet those two cases should be introduced. The amount to bo repaid was to be divided into 276 parts; and he observed that Limerick was only to pay four parts, though it would derive more ad vantage from this improvement than almost any town in Ireland, which he considered to be one of the grossest jobs he had ever heard of.--( Laughter.) Lord DUNC A NNON defended the principle of divi. sion of the shares to be paid by the different counties ; and by the time the Bill went into Committee he should be prepared with clauses to meet the Noble Baronet's ob jections, namely, clauses leaving it to the discretion of the Treasury to make such advances as should seem fit to the Treasury, upon application from the Commissioners, and requiring the money to be deposited in the Bank o Ireland. Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI believed there never had been a measure proposed for Ireland which had excited deeper interest, or was likely to be of greater advantage to that country, than the present. The ge• neral objects of the Bill had been unanimously called for, not only from the counties washed by the Shannon, but by every county in Ireland, and every county called upon to pay its quota would willingly do so. He congratu lated the House and the country that this measure had met with so little opposition -_a measure that was calcu lated to give so much employment to labourers in that country, and to render unspeakable benefits to Ireland uni versally. The'Duke of RICHMOND did not rise to object to the Bill, but he could not quite agree with the implied principles of the Noble Lord who had spoken last. It appeared to him that, wherever there were to be great improvements effected, those improvements ought to be undertaken by private enterprise or public Companies. It was not because there were a great number of people out of employment in Ireland that a principle was to be laid down that a large grant of public money should be made for making an improvement there. If that were to be so, there would be unceasing applications made to Parlia ments for grants of money. It was well known that in the Highlands of Scotland there was a large number of people unemployed at a certain season in every year,and if this were to be a precedent, why should they not make an applica tion to Parliament next year? He confessed - he should have liked this Bill much better if the money for the im provement had to have been raised out of the county's purse ; still, considering the importance of it to Ireland, he should not object to the second reading. Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI in explanation said, that although he considered that this Bill would give employment to a vast number of labourers in Ireland, and that that was a great recommendation to the Bill, yet it was by no means solely upon that ground he gave it his warmest support. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that this im provement had been the subject of many anxious inquiries, and that the Bill was framed upon the advice of the best authorities. It was an improvement calculated to benefit the whole of Ireland, and far beyond what any private en terprise could possibly undertake. As his Noble Friend the Noble Duke on the cross benches bad introduced Scotland into this discussion, he would tell the House that the money for this great improvement was not to be advanced in the lax manner in which the grants for the Caledonian Canal had been made, and that he (the Noble Marquis) would be the last man to recommend a grant on this occasion, upon any such principle. The Duke• of RICHMOND said that Ireland was not situated as Scotland was. In the latter place there were assessed taxes, which there were not in Ireland. And he would tell his Noble Friend who had just sat down that he meant to vote next year for a sum of money to improve the Caledonian Canal. And moreover, he was perfectly sure that whoever lived to see it, after this large sum of money had been sunk in the Shannon, an additional grant would be required for it. The Earl of RIPON had read the Reports upon which this Bill had been founded. They were evidently Reports of very scientific men, and men of great ability, and it was impossible to read them without coming to the conclusion, upon the testimony of the most disinterested witnesses, that this would be one of the greatest im provements which could be projected with reference to Ireland. He observed, that half of the money to be advanced was to be a gift by the legislature, and there fore the Bill only provided for the repayment of half the Exchequer bills. Upon this he hoped his Noble Friend opposite would allow him to recommend his Noble Friend without delay to look at the state of the Exchequer bill market, otherwise he might probably find himself in some difficulty. LordGORT said a few words which we did not under• stand. The Marquis of WESTME ATH objected to any ob servation that was calculated to convey an idea that this Bill was intended to promote anything like private benefit. It was to give effect to a great public undertaking that was far beyond the accomplishment of any private company, and which would undoubtedly be productive of national benefit. Lord LYNDHURST said that there was already a Commission existing for conducting Public Works in Ire land, and he wished, therefore, to know why the Noble Viscount had not placed the proceedings with respect to the Shannon Navigation under that Commission. He could not see why a new Commission should be appointed, especially when It was clear that in doing so they were run ning counter to the provisions under which the Act of the 6th and 7th of William the Fourth was passed. He thought the Noble Viscount would do wise to adept the suggestion of his Noble Friend, by which the present Board would be allowed to do all the business. Lord DUNCANNON said that the present course had been adopted at the suggestion of Col. Burgoyne. Lord LYNDHURST had read Col. Burgoyne's letter, and after reading that he thought the proposition he had made was much more consistent with his recommendation than the appointment of a new Commisaion. The Earl of DEVON thought the carrying through the works contemplated by the Bill would require a great deal of additional assistance. He admitted that the work would be most beneficial, and he thought, therefore, that the Board should have the power of appointing new engineers and surveyors if necessary. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed. PENNY POSTAGE. Lord BROUGIIAM presented a petition from the city of Aberdeen, in favour of a uniform rate of postage. UNLAWFUL OATHS (IRELAND) BILL. Lord DUNCANNON on moving the committal of this Bill, said that it had been rendered necessary in conse quence o f th e di ff i cu l ty t h at h a d been met with i n de a ling void) the Societies to which it related. The sub ject of that difficulty had engaged the attention of both the present and former Governments, who had found it difficult to lix upon the persons who had taken these oaths. This subject had engaged the attention of the Gore:nment during the last year, and in the present Ses sion the subject had been alluded to by the Solicitor-Ge neral for Ireland, who had stated that he could not deny that such Societies had existed. The present Bill had, therefore, been prepared for the purpose of having it de• Glared that persons acted illegally who belonged to those Societies. Th e Noble Lord opposite (Wharncliffe) bad made som e o bj ections the other night to several of the clauses in the Bill, and in, consequence of those objections he was prepared to introduce words into those clauses which he thought would have the effect of meeting those ohjec tiQns, He trusted therefore that their Lordships would allow the niu go into Committee. Lord WHARNC4I f p E said that it was far from his interitimi to do anything to impede the progress of the Bill, but before he proceeded to state to their Lordships what was the pyidenee that had been taken before the voice, so as to be scarcely audible in the gallery, that he had (as we understood) received her Majesty's commands to state, in answer to the Address she had received on Friday last from their Lordships, that she had received that Address with great satisfaction, and that she should direct orders to be sent to her cruisers, and communications to be made with foreign Governments as soon as possible on the subject of the address, with a view to put an end to the slave trade in the Brazils and Portugal. The Bishop of LONDON moved for certain returns relative to taxes in India. SOLDIERS PENSIONS BILL. On the motion of Lord DUNCANNON the House resolved itself into a Committee on the Soldiers' Pensions Bill. I Committee on Crime in Ireland, he could not but congra tulate the Noble Lord, that in consequence of the late dis cussion he had felt it necessary to bring forward some measure to proceed further than the law at present au thorised them to do. He thought their Lordships were entitled to take credit for the introduction of this Bill, because he believed that it was the sitting of the Com mittee that had occasioned it, and if he had any doubt upon the subject he need only advert to what had taken place. Government had slept entirely upon this subject until the Committee was appointed, and then it was, and then only, that the present Bill was introduced.— ( Hear, hear.) Year after year the state of Ireland had been brought before the House of Commons, but there was no hope of a fair hearing in that House, or that an in. quiry should be made on that subject, and such being the case, his Noble Friend had determined to bring the matter before the House of L •rds. The consequence of that determination was the appointment of the Committee, immediately after the appointment of which the Noble Lords opposite introduced the present Bill: The Committee was appointed to inquire into the Adminis tration of the Noble Marquis after he had left Ireland, and he (Lord Wharneliffe) conceived it was quite competent to the House of Lords to appoint a Committee to inquire into the conduct of any person after he had withdrawn from the Administration. But tha House of Commons had decided by a majority of 22 that they would acquit the Government without any inqniry at all. Lord HOLLAND—It was their business, and not ours. Lord WH A RNCLIFFE—Did the Noble Lord mean to say the House of Lords was not to inquire into the con duct of any public functionary?—( Hear, hear.) Or that the House of Lords was not to inquire into the adminis tration of justice ?—( Hear, hear.) If they were told that Secret Societies existed, were they to hold their tongues and remain quiet ? It was as much the right of the House of Lords to interfere, as it was the right of the House of Commons, although he admitted an impeach ment would have to come from the House of Commons. But what was that majority of 22 in the House of Com mons composed of? Why, of the very persons who were either themselves accused, or whose conduct would proba bly form a subject of inquiry. The moment he ( Lord Wharncliffe) was placed in the chair of the Committee, he determined that nothing should take place which could, in the slightest degree be considered unfair or partial, and he had afforded ample opportunity of evidence being brought forward in defence of the Government. Then it was said, why had the Committee not made a Report ? And it was said by that part of the press which sup ported the Government, that that showed the Committee had nothing to say against the Government. But he ( Lord Wharncliffe) felt that any Report coming from that Committee expressing an opinion might be open to the charge of partiality. He believed it had been said by a Noble Lord in another place that that Committee was a packed Jury, and that there was in that Committee a majority of 13 to 5. He (Lord Wharncliffe) must say it did not appear to him that there was any great degree of unfairness in the way that Committee was ap pointed. As originally named, it would have consisted of 11 Peers who sat on the Opposition side of the House and of ten on the Ministerial side, and a Noble and Learned Lord, who, although he sat on the Ministerial benches, yet was not considered, he believed, by the Noble Viscount at the head of her Majesty's Government, as a supporter of his.—( Hear, hear, from Lord Brougham, and laughter.) Therefore, if the Committee was unfair, it was for Noble Lords opposite to have altered it, and as to its being 13 to 5, that was the fault of those who did not choose to attend it. He now came to the evidence, which related more par ticularly to the subject to which the Bill on their Lordships' table referred—the Ribbon Society. Ribbon con. spiracy was undoubtedly not of recent origin in Ireland. From what he had collected from the evidence it appeared that ever since the Rebellion of 1798 a Society of that kind had existed in Ireland. It had been called by some of the witnesses a sort of defensive Society against Orangeism, but he ( Lord Wharncliffe) thought it was rather the other way. He thought Orangeism had arisen as a defence against those Societies that existed in 1798. In 1822, two persons, named Keeland and Brown, were tried in Dublin for administering unlawful oaths, and in the then Attorney-General's speech (the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland) there was a description so exact of those Societies, and of the conspiracy then existing, that he would refer their Lordships to it. The Noble Lord then read an extract from the address •f Lord Plunket, when Attorney-General, to the jury, who spoke of the prisoner's being in a low rank of society, and ended by saying that although they were utterly incapable of• ren dering services to their country, yet they were undoubtedly quite equal to the task of endangering the peace. He ( Lord W.) believed every one would agree that the Society had existed for a considerable time, and the only question, he believed, was, how far it had of late years been increased. Upon this subject the Committee had called several witnesses, and it was necessary their Lord ships should consider who those witnesses were, and what their characters were. He must say that, with respect to the witnesses on both sides, he had never seen brought be fore a Commitee men more intelligent and men more willing to give information in a way satisfactory to those who examined them. The witnesses brought forward by his Noble Friend had not been picked out as persons at tached in any way to him or the party with whom he acted in that House. On the contrary, they were universally persons in the employment of Government, stipendiary Magistrates, and persons high in the constabulary, and of great experience, and living in those parts of the country with respect to which they have given information. Be• sides them the Commissioners of Police in Dublin had been examined, and lastly, Mr. Drumond. All those per sons had agreed, more or less, in the existence of that conspiracy and Society in Ireland.— ( Hear.) They all agreed the members of that Society were bound together by oaths, and went on more or less into the particulars of the subject. Some of them gave exact information, taken on oath, and stated they had not the least doubt there did exist a conspiracy, whatever the objects of it were. Some of them thought their objects were directed against the institutions of the country—but all agreed that they were so organized that it would be very easy for cunning and designing persons to convert them to purposes most fatal to the peace and prosperity of the coun try.—( Hear, hear, hear.) With respect to the evidence of Mr. Rowan, and on which doubts had been thrown by some parties, he (Lord Wharncliffe) must say it appeared to him that nobody had a right to say that the substance of his evidence was not true. Perhaps Mr. Rowan might be of opinion that the objects of the Society were carried further than others thought, but no person had a right to say the facts he spoke to were not true. Without taking Mr. Rowan's evidence, there was that of Captain Despard, a stipendiary Magistrate, who was rather an unwilling wjaness—not improperly so—but he hesitated to give evidence without authority from the Government. Lord HAT H E RTO N—Not unwilling. Lord WH A RNC LIFFE—Not improperly so; he was cautious. Lord PLUNKET—Not so as to damage his evi dence? Lord WHARNCLIFFE—Not at all. He was ready enough to give all the informption in his power, but not without some communication with the Govern ment. His evidence went to show that there was among the Roman Catholic peasantry the anticipation of a gene • ral rising, when those who were engaged in this conspiracy were sworn to upset the Constitution and massacre the Protestants. He stated that when a man was to be shot, one or more persons were collected for the purpose from a distance, who were compelled to perform the deed under the fear of forfeiting their own lives. If they thought he deserved only a beating, persons were brought perhaps from twenty miles off, who knew not the party, nor any thing of the affair, and they executed the assault. He further stated that nothing was more extraordinary than the rapidity with which communication of intelligence was effected among these persons—that one man would bring news, for instance, from Dublin, and transmit it to another town, from which it would in the same way be sent on to all the other places in the line, till it was spread all over the country. He stated also that they had pass-words, which were generally short sentences, sometimes in verse ; and that they had what were called " quarrelling words"— that is, words used to point out a person who was to be as sassinated or maltreated. Thus, when three persons had come from a distance to execute the vengeance of the eun spirators—three persons not knowing the party who was to be their victim—the party who did know him went up to him in their presence, and said, " Don't be fond of quarrelling" —to which all the others would say, "I am not so disposed"—the person pointed out was marked— they never lost sight of him, until an opportunity occurred to beat or kill him. Captain Despard was not the only person who had stated these things. He was cor roborated by many other persons, the general effect of whose evidence was that the peasantry engaged in this conspiracy, considered themselves bound to turn out at two hours' notice. There was less certainty as to their leadership. It was the general belief that there was some Committee sitting in Dublin or Armagh, or Belfast, or perhaps sometimes in one place and sometimes in another; but this was involved in mystery. Major Browne, howe ver, the Commissioner of Police in Ireland, stated that there could be no doubt that there were somewhere persons directing their operations ; and persons who dis played in their management considerable skill and ability. He had no doubt of the existence of such a society, quite independent of the Dublin Trades' Society. He differed from Mr. Rowan in some respects, as to the objects of the Society ; but he believed in the existence of the pass words—in the exclusiveness as to religion—in the readi ness to obey orders—to turn out at a short notice, and to disturb the peace of the country if they found a leader. The passports were changed every three months—they were given out at the parish meetings from the baronial delegates, who had them from the provin cial delegates—who received them from the Committee, sitting in Dublin, or Armagh, or wherever it was. There had been instances in which the pass-words had been disco vered, but they had instantly been changed, and others substituted.—( Hear.) It was a curious thing that these Societies pervaded the middle of Ireland —the counties of Meath, Westmeath, Sligo, Leitrim, Longford, Queen's County, King's County, Dublin, and the North generally —they did not prevail to the same degree in the South ; and what was more extraordinary, they did not prevail in Tipperary, where the greatest number of outrages took place. It was naturally asked what was the reason of this ? And the answer given by some of the witnesses was, that where the population was generally or universally Catholic they did not think these Societies necessary ; but in the North, where Protestants abounded, there the object of this conspiracy was most important ; for be it observed that these Societies were exclusively Catholic. Now as to their connection with outrages. There could be no doubt that a great part of the outrages, the assaults and murders, arose from contentions respecting land —most frequently against tenants who took land from which these parties had been ejected, who received notices, and if these were disregarded, were quickly waylaid, and either beaten or murdered by per. sons sent from different parts of the country. And the diffi , culty of finding evidence was such, that notwithstanding the pains taken by the Government (and which he was willing to peknowledge) the greater number of these crimes were undetected, and their perpetrators went unpunished. ( Hear, bear.) It had certainly by some persons been denied that these crimes were generally committed by s trangers, but on this point the evidence of the Magistrates THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, AUGUST 9, 1839. was conclusive, and much more to be relied on.—( Hear, hear.) The difficulty in getting evidence arose from this, that witnesses were always in fear of their lives. And, moreover, one of the articles in the confederacy was, that the conspirators should be willing to perjure themselves to any extent to save their fellows. Considering this, could it be wondered at that there were few convictions — and should the small number of the convictions be made an ar gument against the existence of the conspiracy.—( Hear.) It could not be doubted that these persons were prepared to rise at a very short notice, and that they believed, when once the rising took place, they would have no difficulty in find ing leaders. On this subject he would observe, it was often said by some person, that they could raise 500,000 men in a short time ; he did not know whether they had a notion that they should find these 500,000 men by the means of these Societies, but they could have no better means for attaining their object.—( Hear, hear.) And lie could not help thinking that if they knew of the existence of such Societies, they were well aware that they furnished them with the means of making good their threats.— ( Hear, hear.) Mr. Drummond had, indeed, said that he doubted the bad tendency of these Societies, because they were generally held at the houses of publicans, from which he concluded that the object was to draw custom to these there t e t do,a,hhfi nvrotaedeicu houses.dneegsuhhwaa years,o: a snuto alh i dtsne oodr mastersar: aon e oeatvduhfcess i ec t hmetgohseuao s was gone expenditure,aotef ls s cuoohpl tdntdvauhges charge oger l t eosei oka h on ecnb e f gposaust,nnitp m xedaaoepl e nyei fteevdithtnnetii sixpence ttehgeitei that money resps g potser n e nueoo n bedop e ylo I rifcneeoarayrl observedeen l oca y tsfueewiihw t l votll o eherei took r t e s they had some idea of deriving something in exchange. Doubtless there were persons in Ireland who received rent from the people, but then that was in re turn for some supposed services they rendered, and therefore from this circumstance he did not derive any argument against the existence of the conspiracy. Mr. Drummond did not deny the existence of the confederacy, but he doubled the objects for which it was formed ; he talked of it as a rude organization—called the pass-words clumsy—spoke contemptuously of its power, so far as re garded the upsetting the Constitution of the country. But he insisted greatly on the character of the in. formers, as being very suspicious ; and urged that they were generally in want of money ; and often accomplices and all these circumstances certainly threw discredit on their . testimony. But let it be recol lected that the same thing was said in all conspiracies, and in 99 cases out of 100, respectable persons could not be got to prove such conspiracies.—( Hear, bear.) The bad character of an informer might be sufficient ground for refusing capitally to convict a man on his evi dence, but it did not seem to him sufficient to disprove the existence of a conspiracy. Another ground upon which Mr. Drummond doubted this con spiracy was the efforts which, lie said, were made by the Roman Catholic Priests, and by a person who e'er cited great influence in Ireland, to discourage it. Now there was in the evidence what might be true or otherwise, but there was a feeling on the part of the peasantry, that though the priests might seem to decry the conspiracy, there was a lurking feeling in their minds in favour it, and that they made use of their authority in connection with it. He (Lord Wharncliffe) did not know if the evidence was quite sufficient to convince him of the fact, but still there was something in it. He would not trouble their Lord ships at greater length on the evidence. The result upon his own mind was, that there existed in Ireland a conspira cy whose objects certainly were directed to agrarian pur poses, such as deterring persons from taking land, &c. ; but that as respected the overturning the Constitution and sub stituting the Catholic for the Protestant religion, there was not evidence sufficient to satisfy him of its existence, though he believed there were many persons who were ready to direct their efforts to such objects.—( Hear, hear.) No man could read the evidence and not come to the conclu sion that the gentlemen of Ireland were surrounded by a conspiracy which took from the power of acting in a manner benefit al to the country. He believed the country gen tlemen of Ireland to be fully awake to the duties which were imposed upon them, and to be desirous of improving their estates and making their tenants comfortable, and that it was a calumny to say that they made use of their powers generally for any other purposes.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the charges brought against the gentle men of Tipperar,y, he would refer to the evidence of the Crown_ Solicitor and of the Stipendiary Magistrates, to place wholesale not to e je get zt m r t s . of prove that it was un j u st to charge them with having made id e s c t t h m e e o n ny tsi means of had taken gettin g arrears o f ren t ; and most of those who had been ejected i n Ti pperary were parsons of such a description that no landl or d h av i ng any re gard to his property could possi tMheany of tenants, t he b se ut e a j possi bly suffer them to remain. These gentlemen had been reminded, in reply to a memorial, that property had its du. ties us well as its rights. It might have been some excuse, had such been the opinion of the Government, had they communicated this privately to these gentlemen ; but.he considered it highly imprudent to communicate this censure in a public letter, as was done by Mr. Drummond, and a circumstance calculated to excite the tenants against the .landlords of the country. Upon the evidence, it was proved that they were in general desirous of improving their estates,and of doing their dutAas country gentlemen. With regard to the present state of Ireland, he was happy to say that he was of opinion that a better state of moral feeling was existing than had existed some years ago, %%hie's he hoped would produce its effect on the lower classes. But there were influences at work to counteract this. Their Lordships would find from the evidence, that outrages always followed political agitation. For instance, after contested elections, the people . ere never allowed to rest by those wh o made a profit of this agitation. In a country where the labour market was overstocked, and the wages of labour conse• quently lower ; they were taught that their superiors were enemies, and: they were held up to their abhorrence as bloody Tories and bloody Sassenachs.—( Hear, hear.) Nay, individuals were frequently pointed out in this manner, and nothing tended so to keep up this agitation as an idea that there was a leaning on the part of Government to the persons thus engaged. He hoped that this took place un der the assurance that by so doing they were treating both parties with impartiality. He could not but think, from statew h at o h had f e m o r al f s e e o e l n i h eg o Ge n twoevo t de h o,r a inwd t mha C ei tl ne o tl m ,et ob m h gye i t t sh t ch e hao e trw , hi hi o t ng h l gi acf forth hr wta t ha h t sit its are b ef e par t tor t eoi e dt r : t a e n s d t he an t was thou notgh t suspected, m with confidence,cheemmel Marquis rgof uihs his smf Noble ohobt lßeFriend's m causeANa B m y u a c dw h do r b ue e lsd t s t ,en and nt s dt have aft for re oftthr troubled' u things cbol en d- , to exist in Irel an d t h an existed at present.—( Cheers.) their Lordship s h a d i t not been for a word at the com mencement eluding sentences of it. As there were near him other Noble Friends who had attended the Committee, and who were much better able to address their Lordships on the evidence than he could possibly be, as having had his atte n ti on di rected to a totally different part of the subject, it had been quite as much as he could do to study the evidence or, that point, without disregarding the other duties which devolved upon him ; and here he could not help observing, and he hoped the country would be made aware of it, en the unpromising state of the House for such a discussion, contrasted with the appearance it pre sented the other night, when their Lordships came down prepared to vote on this subject.—( Hear, bear, hear.) On looking at the other side of the House he observed the benches were occupied almost exclusively by the members of the Committee.—( Cheers.) His Noble Friend had commenced his speech by representing this Bill as having been occasioned by the appointment of the Committee. All he could say was, th a t as f ar b ac k as the month of December last th e attent i on of the Government h a d b een called to this subject, and the heads of a Bill had been under the consideratio n of Mr. Grady, the Attorney-Ge neral, who had stated it was a very difficult subject to deal with, without introducing provisions which on other accounts would be objectionable; but when he left Ireland the Attorney. General had overcome these difficulties; and the first time the present Solicitor-General had addressed the House of Commons, he had stated his intention of intro ducing such a Bill. The Noble Lord, why, he knew not, had taken great credit to himself for the narrow majority by which the Committee had been carried, and had also alluded to the composition of the Committee as originally proposed by the Noble Earl; but it should be recollected teat as members of that Committee the Noble Earl had proposed five Members of the Government, whose official avocations must necessarily have prevented them from attending, even if they bad not objected to it on the grounds stated in the debate.—( Hear, hear, hear.) With regard to himself, the Noble Lord had stated that he could not see why he (the Marquis of Normanby) should not have attended, but the Noble Lord_ should recollect that at the time the Noble Earl did him the justice to state that he thought he had acted very properly in withdrawing from the Committee. With respect to this Ribbon Sj ciety, he would call the attention of the House to the information which Mr. Rowan had forwarded to the Govern ment last year, and which he had, he understood, repeated in substance before the Committee. It was rather sin gular that the Noble Lord had never alluded to this gen. tleman as evidence; he had, in fact, thrown overboard his principal witness.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. Rowan had been described by one of the witnesses as a most credulous gentleman, and he thought the event proved that such a description was correct. He would take this opportunity of observing that his Noble Friend and himself differed but little in their views with regard to this conspiracy; his Noble Friend had stated that a conspiracy existed for the purpose of perpetrating agrarian outrages. Now there was a much greater difference between his Noble tehydFdai differed eve i e t eln: s lecaode o p, b elf j :dir e amo e lli t i:iso l tfim, were similar Friend and the Noble Earl. The Noble Earl had de scribed it as a conspiracy directed against all who would not join and support it ; that it existed in all parts of the country; that the poor farmers who r N ef o u b s l e e d L to o j r ( d )in w i h t o w h e a r d e always those of the Precursor Society—separation from England, and the substitution of theCath h o e lic for the Protestant religion. He would appeal tot its victims, and just sat down if anything of this sort had been proved before the Committee. The Noble Earl had stated that he stated that he (the Marquis of Normanby) had never believed in such a conspiracy, but be bad did not deny the existence of such a c onspiracy, b ut he did not believe it had any political object. He had stated this in his place n 1837, and had further added that he had not seen any secret oaths; and that though he did not believe in the existence of the conspiracy to the extent represented, yet if information was laid before him it would be found that there was no man in the world more determined to put it down, and he would appeal to the acts of the Governa.ent for the truth of that statement. He had also stated that the Government had not overlooked any facts, but that they had not been enabled to procur e any evidence so as to secure a conviction ; and he would appeal to the Com mittee whether both these facts had not been borne out by the evidence. He bad also stated that he did not believe s that the Ribbon Ribbonism existed to the extent which it did in 1831 ; and 1831 than it was he had heard nothing of the Ribbon that these Societies did not bear a political had admitted Noble Earl. Society, but in 1838 ho had received from Mr. Rowan, of whom he had h e ard nothing Provieusly, a communication conspiracyeaCl i t a a p r ar faince t s e e r n , Des a . ew n g a d P sa i r His n ' morethi Noble ot his fullyi belse During the year 1836 stating that he had received information fry.... a --- • - . al ! , inaivid u who was desirous hi: name should not be mentioned. One word with regard to these informers —what he complained and was capable of effecting its object any moment the conspir ators fixed one Her Majesty's Ministers ought to think well, having in view allegiance to their Sovereign, before they made light of these circumstances.—( Hear hear. ) Lord LURGAN felt that he should be shrinking from the discharge of his public duty if he did not make a few observa tions • on the present occasion. He had recently l e f t to I find relaed,nothing had immersedad surprised in this him more and tl ie i r Lordships of Irish Government and -- of • Irish confederacy. Not thatie was ignorant their Lieedships - were so employed, but what he:wished to empress on them was, that he had, about two months ago, left Ireland, -and that Armagh, which they had - been told was the head-quarter of thet mysterious society—and * he spoke advisedly—he left Armagh, and he left Ireland gene rally, tranquil, prosperous, and improving in almost every re spect in which the moral improvement of a country can be re garded. Then coming into this country as rapidly as the tra veller was now borne from one part to another, he was scarcely thirty-six hours out of Ireland, and scarcely in this metropolis, beferc he was called upon to renounce all his opinions and settled convictions as so many idle dreams and fancies without any reality ; for he found that whilst he had been fo;tering these idle delusions, their Lordships were almost at their wits' end with respect to the Sister Island, and were employed in an investigation with respect to that amount of crime and outrage which their Lord ships said had rendered life and property insecure in that portion of the empire.—( Hear, hear. ) This to him, as an Irishman, was very perple x i ng an d em b arrass i ng. H e was free to a d m i t this was a most important discussior. The statements that had been made by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Wharncliffe) were very startling, but to him they were not unexpected, be cause he had had the honour of serving on the Committee, and it had appeared to him that without some such proceedings as Noble Lords opposite had adopted, the finale on this question would have been little in keeping with the opening and wish the progress of the whole of this Irish discussion. What was the opening ? Why, that such an amount of crime and outrage had prevailed in Ireland, as rendered life and pro perty insecure in that country since the year 1835. Up to that year Nuble Lords opposite would have it supposed that Ireland had been a sort of blissful Eden, where man's disobedience had never been heard of, and the fruit of the forbidden tree had re mained untouched.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) But Noble Lords had contrived at the close to bring up something very highly seasoned, and they now called on their Lordships to be lieve that Ireland, or at least a very great portion of Ireland, was bound together by illegal oaths, and signs, and pass words ; and were ready to turn out at a moment's notice to do anything, no matter what.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Levi Lurgon) might endeavour to weaken the Noble Lord's (Wharneliffe's) speech, by setting one part of it against the other, beeause that Noble Lord had stated, and had stated most correctly, that it was a great comfort to him to perceive, in his investigation, that there was a considerable improvement throughout the whole of Ireland, moral and intellectual.—( Hear, hear. ) There was hardly any country in Europe more rapidly advanc ing than Ireland—none more likely to repay the care and anxiety of its Leei slature. Thi s h e wou ld ma i nta i n as the truth against all comers..—(Hear, hear.) If that, then, were the truth—if it were true that the internal trade of Ireland and her foreign commerce were increasing —that her capital was aug menting—that the moral feeling of he r,ieople was improving.— if, above all, the Emancipation Act were working out its re sults in a better spirit, a milder temper, beginning to diffuse itself through Ireland—if party spirit were subsiding—these were undoubtful proofs and characteristics of an improving country—( Hear, hear)—characteristics which could not co exist with the universal rebellion and crime which were repre sented to pervade Ireland.--( Hear, hear.) To believe that they could would be to dishonour the first law of nature, that the tree is known by its fruits, and therefore he felt warranted in asserting that Ireland was rapidly advancing and improving.—( Hear, hear.) Up to this time he had rather been speaking as a witness himself than commenting on the evidence which was before their Lordships. But if he were to speak from these books—if he were to_ see by others' eyes, and to hear with others' ears, and speak according as this inquiry gave him utterance—he must admit that before a Committee, as impartial in its operations as it was possible to imagine, and under the presidence of as honest an Englishman as ever pre sided over any Committee—he was bound to admit that before this Committee so discharging its duties—whatever h. might think of its first constitution—it was true that by the most respectable witnesses—and he had heard with pleasure the testimony which had been borne to the intelligence and inte grity of those witnesses—( Hear)—he must admit that crimes and outrages of a fearful sort, and conspiracies, very alarming conspiracies, did pervade and disfigure a large portion of her Majesty's dominions in Ireland.—( Hear, hear. ) Now, if he did regret anything in connection with that Committee it was that, having pushed their inquiries to the greatest extent—into the root of the disturbances in Ireland—they had made no re port as to the proper remedies to be appliod ; the Nuble Duke had supported the motion for the Committee, on the ground that he was disposed to think there might be something in the jurisprudence of Ireland, in the administration of justice, which required some remedies ; excellent reason too, in his (Lord Lurgan's) opinion; but the Committee had' turned up every kind of outrage, disgusting and atrocious; but no remedy had been applied, reminding one of what had hnmourously enough been put over an apothe cery's shop,—" vendita Itic,emeticum,narcoticum,et omnicum, precter remedium."—(Loud laughter.) Many persons seemed disposed to consider this an exclusively Irish debate; but, in fact, it was no such thing, for those who had gone through the vast expanse of these volumes, would find that not only did this conspiracy exist, it was said, in Ireland, but that it had been found in Liverpool—( Hear )—in Birmingham and in Man chester—( Hear, hear)—and in Paisley —( Hear, hear.) Cer tainly if this conspiracy did ex i st i n Ireland , there was no difficulty in conceiving, with the bridge of Boats now established between this country and Ireland, that it should find its way here. But was it true that in the heart of Protestant England,not Char tism, but Ribbonism prevailed —even in Birmingham ; that the staple trade of Manchester was likely to sink before the rival trade of ribbons--nay, that even in the trading capital of Pro testant, Presbyterian Scotland, this conspiracy was rampant. This did fill him with unfeigned astonishment, and with incre dulity. For aught he knew, if these confederacies were to be found in the places he had mentioned, their Lordships might at this moment be sitting within a circumvallation-line of rib bons, surrounded by that my s t er i ous system, w h ose object, it seemed, was to overthrow the Protestant religion —to sweep away the Right Reverend Prelates from the Bench--and to set up King Daniel O'Connell on that throne Which was wont to present to their Lordships' eyes all that was most interesting and beloved in these realms. He could not but look at all this, however, as the most fabulous romance ever known. It must come from no other quarter than La Mancha; and by-the-bye it was rather singular that Mr. Rowan came from La Mancha—not in Spain, certainly, but in Weitmeath ; and the Noble Marquis, in defending that gentleman's testimony, had taken up a more chivalrous enter prise than ever the Spanish hero of the windmill.—( Laughter. ) But what now were the proofs of this conspiracy ? For '' - by their fruits ye shall know them." There was no proof at all of a political conspiracy. There were no crimes analagous to such a combination. There were no political crimes—no insur gent movements—no insurrectionary outrages. Sir R. Peel himself, even in describing much more horrible crimes—murders in the face of day—near chapels--before congregations—he had expressly negatived any such combination. But where was the head of this conspiracy ?—where was the commanding genius ? —where the presiding traitor ? Could he ever be guessed at? No. His name had not been breathed ; nor, so far as could be proved, ever dreamt of. So that here was a complete natural curiosity—a body of rebellion, with hands and arms, and nether limbs, wanting nothing to give it power but the rebel head.— ( A laugh.) It had been observed as remarkable that the meetings of these societies were generally held at public houses, and that the publicans often presided • yet, though this Ribb on consp i racy was said to include' populati on f rom 16 to 60, n the whole piece of evidence, tangible and conclusive, had beer, discovered. The people of Ireland, if they were traitnrs, were the most faithful depositories of treason, the most careful keepers of a secret, whether sober or drunk, for all these proceedings, it would seem, were steeped in whi s k ey —( A laugh) —carried on as they were in their public-houses. But he dismissed from his mind as romantic, as fabulous ; he trampled under foot, as most calumnious to the people of Ireland, the idea that they were a revolting or rebel lious nation ; he denied it altogether.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that they were as sound at heart as any portion nt the subjects of the British empire.—( Hear, hear.) But he del not wish to undervalue the evidence which had been laid before their Lordship's Committee. He denied the political, the treasonable conspiracy, but no one could deny that these societies—by different barbarous designatione—existed through , out Ireland—their objects being to control the management of land and the employment of letiour, and carrying the most fearful intimidation into the families of those who disputed their tyrannical mandates.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") This no one could deny. Nor could it be denied that these Societies were wetting much stronger now than at any former period. Now, indeed, an agrarian combination must be in creasing from. That which was now going on in Ireland, as to the management of landed property. Ireland was now in a transition state of society. There ssere novel and ex tensive improvements going on. These improvements necessarily tended to throw out of their possessions great numbers of the poorer classes, who, severed fromctheir little holdings of land, were unable perhaps to provide of,,po tatoes for their f am i s hi ng c hild ren, and thus becorfigrunhap ily, too rea d y f or Ribb onism, or any other -conspiracy.— ( Heer, hear.) It would not become him to bring any charge against the gentry of Ireland. He believed that no countr had a bett er an d more l ib eral landed proprietary.—(Hear.) ) But there were many Acts against sub-letting—enforcing clauses in leases on the tenantry—against alienation,—increasing the Parliamentary franchise, and so on—all against the people,— nothing could be more pro b a bl e, therefore, than that unlawful combinations should now be more frequent than ever ; and unless their Lordships adapted their legislation to this transitory state of things, more crime and outrage would arise than had ever yet been witnessed. As to the evidence, lie thought their Lordships should in a great measure dismiss it from their minds. But if they allowed such fears and panics as some endeavoured to ex cite, to influence their minds, to balance their decision, fare well, then, to reason, to candour, to justice—farewell to the spirit from which would spring an appropriate and beneficial Legislation ; for party feeling, though blind and deaf, was over powering in its influence, and irresistible in its power ; there fore he entreated their Lordships to be watchful and vigilant, as to the effect which they gave to this evidence.—( Hear. ) The Duke of WELLINGTON would not have felt it ne cessary to take up their Lordships' time had he not been called upon in the way he had been. He entirely approved of this Bill, in fact no opposition had been made to it on any side of the House, and he was quite satisfied with the discussion which had taken place on this subject, when his Noble Friend had moved for the appointment of the Committee. It seemed to be the opi nion of the Noble Baron who had just addressed their Lordships that this Bill ought to be extended to England, or perhaps that it ought rather to be applied to England than to Ireland. He should have something to say to that part of the subject pre sently, but he would now address a few words to their Lord ships on the motion now before them. He had stated at the commencement of the Session the reasons why he had voted for the appointment of this Committee. The Noble Baron was not in the House at the time that Committee had been appointed; if he had lie would have recollected that for several previous Sessions they had heard in the speech from_ the Throne of th e tranquillity of Ireland, and at last, after having heard of sev era l o th er ou t rages , th e y heard of the murder of Lord Norbury. The Noble Baron had recently come over,. from Ireland, and he said he heard nothing of any crimes or outrages ; they at that time had been more unfortunate for they had then just heard of that murder, the perpetrators of which even yet remain undiscovered.—(Hear, hear.) He would also notice that the fact of the existence of the Ribbon Society had then for the first time been admitted in public, for although it appeared the Government were previously aware of its ex istence, they had not publicly admitted the fact until just previous to the time that his Noble Friend had moved for the appointment of that Committee. Some curious facts relating to the existence evidePste on different trials of that conspiracy. had been mentioned, in the course of that in which proved that this m et e d throughou_t the country. U debate, facts which had come out i in different parts of the country, he had consideeed that the dent} omen these circum stances complain of the state 'of sectety in that country ; asSt:oencaicteetr reason ason einen of Ireland had considee:ng the great difference of o i ion b !hat existed between the Government and the public on _thatn subject, ject, and considering made—for it was impossible to that although returns had bee n obtain from those returns an crime in that coubtry—cnoontidering 'exact statement of the state of all these things, he had s th h o o u ti g id ht uo it edit, a e p 3C D p oi nted t unreasonable that a Committee inquire to ireland, and into the state of the a.dministrati on o f justice. or: those grounds h e h a d voted for the appointment of thee Com mittee. He h a d not been 4 Member oe th ''. Committee, of was not so much their want of character as their utter uselessness. They would never state a fact—they would run on very glibely while you were inclined to listen to them, but when asked for a single corroborative circum stance they could not give it, and they refused to give their evidence on oath in a Court of Justice. Mr.. Rowan stated that this individual was quite unlettered, and that be had obtained the information at different times, but that it was not on oath ; and hensust say if the only object of any 'person had been to make money he could nut adopt a better trade than the one taken up by this informer. It came out from the evidence of Mr. Kemmis that Mr. Rowan had incorporared the evidence of eight persons in this d'- cement, which was represented as the information of an unlettered person, which be had put into form, and he cer tainly had put it into form, for any thing more affectedly written than this information, from an unlettered person, he had never seen. Mr. Rowan, in page three of his ay.- dence, proceeded to say he believed the object of the Rib bonmen was to dethrone the Queen, and make Daniel O'Connell, Member for Dublin, King of Ireland.-- ( Laughter and Hear, hear)—and put down the Protestant religion—( Hear, hear)•—and establish the Priests and the Catholic Church in its stead.—( Hear, hear.) Further, that the Priests kept a list of the estates forfeited in the time of Oliver Cromwell, with a view to VI& restoration to the posterity of tho original possessors.—( Hear, hear. Now, he ( Lord N.) would tell their Lordships that the recent purchases of estates in Ireland had been made chiefly by Roman Catholics.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) He ( Lord Normanby) believed that, however, to be the fact. The evidence of that gentleman further stated that there were branches of the Society opened through a considerable portion of the country, the Grand Lodge being in Dublin, and that there were several other unlaw ful objects. Mr. Rowan on being asked by the Commit tee whether he believed all the information he had received, said he believed it all, and especially he thought Mr. O'Connell was now much more likely than before to be crowned King of Ireland, as he was now backed by the Duke of Leinster.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Earl of RODEN—There is no such evidence. The Marquis of NORMANBY—Oh, but there is though. The Noble Marquis again read the evidence, and referred such of their Lordships as had the slightest doubt to the prieted Report. Mr. Rowan repeatedly sail he had not the slightest reason to doubt the accuracy of the information he had received at different times. He further stated he had been told that there were as many as 1,000 Ribbonmen in three or four parishes in the same county, and that they went -out in bodies by night to drill, about a hundred men in each battalion. He had been further informed that the Ribbonmen had great hopes that in con sequence of tho Rebellion in Upper Canada, there would be a war between the United States and Great Britain, and that the rebellion never would be put down until Da niel O'Connell was crowned King of Ireland. He had, however, never been able to get information of any outrage or meeting before its commission. Mr. Poussett, however, the Provost of Sligo, had stated that they bad information of a murder five months before it was perpe trated. Now a very important correspondence had taken place between Mr. Kemmis on the part of the Irish Govern ment, and Mr. Rowan. In reply to a series of pressing letters from Mr. Kemmis, Mr. Rowan was obliged at last to confess, that though he had received a great deal of general information as to the existence of Ribbonism, he could specify nothing nor substantiate anything; nor could he even forward to Government depositions upon oath from the parties from whom the information had been collected, although those persons should be secured from all personal danger, as they would not be called upon to prosecute. Mr. Kemmis's last letter to Mr. Rowan, pressing for some tangible evidence that the Government might go upon was unanswered ; yet in the late examination before the Committee, Mr. Rowan had made no reference to this correspondence, merely alluding to a communication he had had with the Government some five or six weeks previously. He (Lord N.) admitted that there were Societies in Ireland, bound by secret oaths, and for unlawful purposes, but there was no proved connexion between them and ribbonism. Mr. Rowan's delicacy before the Committee, in begging not to be pressed to give his opinion as a Magistrate, whether the Government had neglected to take any steps to trace and prosecute Ribbonism, would imply that there was something which he would conceal. But the fact:was, as the correspondence between that gentleman and Mr. Kemmis showed, there had been nothing furnished upon which the Government could proceed. The Noble Earl, as a proof of the existence of Ribbonism, had referred to the charge of Judge Burton to the Jury of Tipperary. But the Learned Judge had alluded to another Society, not Ribbonism : the Noble Earl must therefore have confounded two things. He was sorry to hear his Noble Friend throw out the observa tions he had done with respect to the Catholic Priests; because from the observations he had made while in Ireland, he was con vinced they had done all in their power, and were determined to persevere in their efforts, to put down Ribbon conspiracy and all other species of crime in Ireland. Such being by the undisputed points with respect to conspiracy, there were only two modes of accounting for it, one was that persons of a low character, who spent their time in public houses, wished by their acts to be thought engines of great. events, or that there was ex isting in Ireland a conspiracy without parallel ; and as to the Catholic Priests, they must be supposed as exerting their influence to uphold a system which all the Prelates of that re ligion denounce. If the evidence of Mr. Rowan was to be looked at in one point of view, it must be taken as a whole. He would not now go further into the evidence ; it would be improper for him to do so, because he thought their Lordships were discussing a question, without fully understanding the whole of it. Notwithstanding all that had been stated, he be lieved Ireland was in a much better state at the present mo ment, than it was formerly—there had been less outrage. It was true that there had been more committals for minor offences; but the greater ones had diminished.—( Hear, hear. ) All this was a symptom of an improving state of things. He denied that the Government had done anything- but hold the scale even between the two great parties In Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) He had not favoured the Catholics more than he had done the Protestants, although the latter might think so from the fact of the former having obtained a greater ascen, dancy than they had formerly enjoyed. In exercising the pa tronage that had been conferred upon him during the time he was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, he had never considered whe ther a man was a Catholic or a Protestant.—( Hear, hear.) He thought the Noble Earl opposite, after the evidence that had been adduced, was bound to withdraw one charge that he had made as to the conduct of the Government. • With reference to the detection and punish ment of offences, if the Noble Earl still in sis t e d t h at t h e Go vernment had suffered crime to go on, he would put it to any I Noble Lord whether any evidence had been brought forward to prove , that?—(Hear, hear.) He would fearlessly assert that no Government had been more active or more zealous in detecting offences than the present.—(Hear, hear.) What ever their Lordships might think, with one result he was satis fied. Their Lordships had pronounced an opinion upon his conduct, but out of the Committee had arisen a better feeling among the people of Ireland, because they felt that the charge was made against them as well as the Government.—( Hear, hear.) He trusted, in conchs. sion, that in justice to himself, and in justice to Ireland, before their Lordships took any further steps, they would read the whole of the evidence, and by that he would be judged as to the conduct he had pursued in Ireland, and whether that coun try was in the state during his Government to which the Noble Lord had' referred —( Hear, hear. ) The Marquis of WESTMEATH thought the Noble Marquis instead of applying himself to the statements of the Noble Lord and reasoning upon them, had confined himself to a furious at tack upon Mr. Rowan. He had endeavoured to throw down Mr. Rowan and set up Mr. Drummond. He thought the at tack that had been made was not justified by the evidence, and as a proof of that he need only refer to letters that had been ad dreesed to Mr. Rowan, after a strongly contested election at Youghall, from the two candidates, tendering him thanks for the manner in which he-had - preserved the peace of the town. One of thoseletters came from Mr. John O'Connell. Another letter was from nine Deputy-Lieutenants and 46 Magistrates of Meath, tendering him thanks also for his conduct there. if any thing, therefore, was wanting to show that Mr. Rowan ought not to be lightly spoken of. he thought those letters were cal culated to convey that impression. Mr. Rowan was a most respectable man, and he was most respectably con nected. He was the brother of Mr. Rowan, who was at the head of the Metropolitan Police. The Noble Marquis, in his bitter commentary upon Mr. Rowan's evidence, did not state to their Lordships, at the time he was winding up his testimony relative to the county of Westmeath, that he was removed from that county. He was not there in such a situation as to enable him efficiently to perform his duty, and yet such was the tribute he had received from the ex-Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. The Marquis of NORMANBY had made no such attack against Mr. Rowan. The Marquis of WESTMEATH did not exactly remember the words used by the Noble Marquis, but he would submit to their Lordships whether his manner did not convey a most bitter sarcasm on Mr. Rowan.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis wished to disparage his Noble Friend's description of the Ribbon conspiracy. He was sorry to say that unfortunately for the Noble Marquis his Government had shown great favour to persons who were behind the scenes in bringing about the worst effects in Ireland.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He thought the Noble Marquis, instead of pursuing the course he had ought to have done all in his power to mitigate the cha racter of the dreadful conspiracy that existed in Ireland. The Noble Marquis had said the conspiracy was not political, and Mr. Drummond had said it was not agrarian.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis wished the people of England to believe that the state of Ireland was such as he described. That the conspiracy was political he need only refer to the evidence of Ronan,'Jr. Capt. Despard, Mr. Wright, and others. Capt. Despard stated that they sat in Committee on persons, and doomed them to death. But Mr. Drummond had wished it to be understood that this was merely a Society for men to stand by one another at fairs. Why everybody knew that a great many people were murdered in coming home from fairs—(Hear, hear)—and that if a man was ob noxious, and had not a faction to cover his retreat, he was sure in coming from a fair to meet with his fate.—( Hear, hear, ) The Noble Marquis (Normanby) had given great credit to the sincerity of the wish of the Roman Catholic Priests to put down this conspiracy. He (the Marquis of Westmeath) had no doubt that many of their body (and he should be uncharita able if he did not say so) regretted a state of things ao much calculated to create misery and wretchedness, but he must say there was no evidence—nothing but bare assertion—to justify such a conclusion. Lord PLUNKET—There is evidence of Roman Catholic Priests having interfered—their names are mentioned. The Marquis of WESTMEATH—In a few specific instances. It was proved the influence of the Romaa Catholic Priests was quite sufficient to break the ties of landlord and tenant —they, not one of them, being possessed of the fee-simple of an acre in the country, have influence enough to enable them to return several Members to the House of Com mons ; and yet it was to be presumed that this conspiracy went on in spite of their wishes and their desire to put it down. He must say, he could not give credit to that statement. He had read in the newspapers an account of the execution of a man for the murder of O'Keefe, who appeared to have gloried in his death. lie stated that he could have saved his life if he had chosen, but that he preferred death. Nqw every one must deplore an instance of such misguided feeling, but that was an occasion in which, Qf all others, a minister of religion ought to have at tempted to set the unhappy man right. The same newspaper contained a statement of the execution of a Roman Catholic at the same period, but in another place, for the murder of his father, and he confessed his guilt. These two cases stood in strong contrast with each other—in the one, the crime was poli tical, in the other it was not and their Lordships would draw their (MI illfereTWO i 4 contrasting the co n d uct o f t h e Roman cathefic clergy in these two instances. One word as . to the probability or non-probability of this conspiracy having an efficient head ; when the Noble and Learned Lord opposite (Lord Plunket) h Was Attorney-Gene r al ; in the ape •ch keen " alluded to h ad "distinctly Stated that the eonspira c y was such that it could not have been """- th• • .....nued by persons in the situation of life of . persons who were then p rosecu t e d. Hi s (the Marquis of Westmeath's) opinion was th a t th e thi ng h a d been set agore , t n by very able men, and he tho ug ht the cell for any thing the most awful that Englishni ra e i nc Q o Y eirco e fficien tnceive, EVENING EDITION. but he was quite satisfied with the results which had already been produced by the publication of the evi dence. In the first place it would make the country as well as the Parliament acquainted with the real state of society in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear). That was one satisfaction sa h'ch he derived from the publication of the evidence, but be sides that he had the satisfaction the other night of hearing.the magnificent speech of the Noble and Learned Lord opposite, and of voting hr the five resolutions which he had prepared for their Lordships' adoption.(Cheers.) He would say that that speech would never be forgotten—(Cheers) —and it must pro duce its effect on the administration of justice in Ireland, and whatever might be the effect of the resolutions for which be had had the satisfaction of voting—and he doubted of that ef fect in consequence of what he had heard had been stated else where—he would say that he was convinced that ulti mately the principles recommended by the Noble and Learned Lord in his speech, and asserted in his resolutions must prevail in theadministration of justice in that country, as they did already in this country. Another effect produced by the motion of his Noble Friend, and one of the results of that Committee, was tirt Bill they had now under their consideration, and he must say, he hoped that Bill would be carried into execution, and pro 'nee some effect in checking the disposition to Secret Societies in Ii eland; but another effect which that Committee had pro duced was, the laying open to their Lordships and the world, the real existence of these Secret Societies, and the dangers re sulting therefrom. He would not now go over the evidence, he would not pretend to follow his Noble Friend, who had been chairman of that Committee, through his statement, but he must say, the result had been to produce a conviction on his mind of the existence of this general conspiracy ; in his opinion there was great danger to be apprehended from it, and he b e _ lieved that it extended to most parts of Ireland, and this at a moment when the Government had been so imprudent as to reduce the peace establishment to a scale positively not equal to the performance of peace duties. Their services were wanted in all directions, and at the same time a Member of Parliament, of great influence and power, was taking that op portunity of informing the Irish public that they were nine millions of people, and that nine millions of people have only to demand to be independent really to become so ; while he had under his hand this very conspiracy, that was capable of carry ing into execution a plan for the disunion of that from the other country, he would say that it was fortunate for the British public, and for all those who wished to maintain the con nection between the two countries, that pubte attention had been drawn to the existence of this conspiracy. This conspi racy was known to be foended on similar principles to the con spiracy of the United Irishmen, and other more extended con spiracies which exist throughout Europe ; and it appeared that her Majesty's Ministers, as it now came out, had a knowledge of this conspiracy at the very moment at which, in the speeches from the Throne, they were putting into the mouth of the So vereign assurances of the tranquillity of Ireland, and were re ducing the military establishments in Ireland by sending the troops to Canada at the very time they ought to have augmented them.—( Hear, hear, hear.) These were some of the advantages acquired by the appointment of that Committee, and he confessed that he rejoiced that their Lord ships had appointed it, and thought his Noble Friend who had bdnireess appointing Marquis. their presided over it, and the Noble Lords who had served en it, The Duke a but and oft he efo ra i were entitled to the gratitude of the country.—(Cheers. ) the ay fRICHMONDeItt that w a observationsuf the f h t u h a t e r u e r e N ad o i Lordship shadd on e or o in f i t w t ehei which werewould u n f n a t v u o c u h rabl e rather . the have ca a Never had a Committee acted more fairly than that Committee majority of cause, because t er e was convinced the subject would always rec • ewe from their Lordships the greatest consideration. The law required no change, butt the law ought to be carried into execution. He was surprised that Ireland was so tranquil as it was. He knew in revenue prosecutions in the county of Sussex that if the recognizances of those who refused to give evidence were not estreated, it would ire impossible ever to obtain a convic tion. He deeply retseeetted being obliged to oppose the Govern ment ; but he felt it was his duty the other night to de so. When men procured a pass word, and they were recog nised by it in a town a hundred miles off—and were recognised in Liverpool or Birmingham by it, he thought that was proof of the existence of conspiracy. He had, until the appointment of the Committee entertained opinions unfavourable to the landlords of Ireland, but he now believed that they were desirous of doing every thing for the comfort of their tenants, and the good of the country. He had no fear from Ribbon conspiracies in this country, although he did from other conspiracies, of the existence of which he believed the Government was fully aware, and were anxious to guard against. He thought they were bound tobelieve what Mr. Rowan had stated upon his oath. He (the Noble Duke) believed that gen tleman to be a most respectable man, though he had not the slightest acquaintance with him. But if his Noble Friend be lieved him to be a too credulous person, why had he continued him in his office of Stipendiary Magistrate? He therefore trusted that his Noble Friend would explain, so that nothing should go forth to the public calculated to injure the character of that officer, whom he (the Noble Duke) really believed to have spoken only what he believed to be the truth.--( Hear, hear, hear.) He thought the witnesses generally had shown considerable talent, and a desire to communicate the truth as far as they could; and he must also state, the Government had given all the information and all the facilit) in their power; they had seemed most anxious that the Committee should know every thing. Such was the importance of the evidence, that the Committee felt they could not confine themselves to Re port, as was generally the case, without recommending some legislative enactment. He trusted that the evidence would be of the greatest use to the present Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland.-- (Hear, hi'ar.) His Noble Friend was an Englishman, he was experienced as an English Magistrate, and he was sure that Lord Ebrington entered upon his office with a firm determination to administer the law impartially and firmly— so as to show the Irish people that it would be for their interest. to adopt that orderly conduct which must make their condi tion better, while, if they violated the law, their punishment must be certain. He had had some management of Irish sol diers, and he (the Noble Duke) knew that the best way to deal with them was to tell them what they were expected to do, and to thank them when they had performed it well; but to let them know that if they acted otherwise their punishment would be certain, and the sooner the better.--( Hear, hear.) He believed his Noble Friend now in Ireland would act upon this system. He trusted there was ground for the hope that Ireland would soon be prosperous ; but it was dreadful to re flect upon the frequency of murder in Ireland, and the total absence of honour at taking away life which prevailed.—(Hear, hear.) They had seen that an acting Magistrate, and the agent of a landed proprietor who had in no way exceeded his duty, (turd not venture to the next town, a. quarter of a mile, without being armed, an d wou ld not even walk to the lodge of, his own park without two armed policemen.—( Hear, hear.) As an English country gentleman, he (the Noble Duke) felt it was their duty to take seine steps to relieve Ireland-from this fearful condition. They might as well live in New Zealand or in any other savage country, as in such a state of society.-- (Hear, hear, hear.) He was actuated by no party fettling, He went into the Committee determined to y act as a Juryman, and he had done so. He had never opposed his Noble Friend when he could support. him. He believed no one could charge him with giving a factious vote.--( Hear, hear.) H av i ng so far trespass e d on t h e i r Lordships, he would conclude by stating he felt it his duty to the country to second the motion. The Marquis of NORMANBY explained. All he had to say respecting Mr. Rowan, against whose respectability he had made no statement, was, that he had only commented upon his evidence.—( Cheers.) Lord HATHERTON said as he had taken an active part in the Committee, he now felt it his duty to address their Lordships. , He felt great surprise at the tone of the Noble Duke, for he could show that as respected outrage and erime, Ireland was now tranquillity itself, when compared with any former period.— (Laughter, and hear.) This he could prove from the testi mony of Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Goulburn, and Mr. Daly, from the year 1814 up to the year 1830. He could easily explain some discrepancies alluded to by the Noble Duke respecting the difference between the number of crimes and the cases of committal.—(-flear i hear). Mr. Cahil, of Ti pperary , had prepare an abstract, from which it appeared that during the years 1836, 1837, 1838, in some instances one man re-presented 30 criminals, and one person was set down for the tame offence 42 times. In one of those years 869 per sons were charged with 5,412 crimes, and the average during the three years was about the same. Having had the honour to be Chief Secretary under two Lords Lieutenant, he had taken great trouble to get up evidence for the Committee. it was amusing to hear the replies of the witnesses as to what Ribbonism meant. The witnesses would smile and •hesitate, but they could give no positive answer. Major Warburton, a most intelligent observer, stated he had the g reat es t possible difficulty in findi ng out the nature of Ribbonism. Mr. Oen ket could give no exact information. Mr. Meckins, Colonel ItPGregor, Capt. Vignolles, a n d severa l o th ers a ll diff ere d. One thought the Ribbonists were like the Terry Alts ; another thought they were like the White Feet; others the Black Feet ; others the Day Boys ; some thought it was like a cog ' bination of rustic trades. Mr. Drummond said he had scarcely any definite information about Ribbonism. He believed, however, it consisted exclusively of Roman Catholics., Then they differed as to its extent. Some believed it extended not only through Ireland, but it also reached to Liverpool, Manchester, and Glasgow. Yet it was most extra. ordinary. They had, however, examined the Crown Solici tors from Ireland, and Mr. Hickman, whose circuit comprised Leighlen—Mr. Barrington, Galway, Ro scommon , Sligo, and whose circuit extended over Cork, Limerick, Kerry,Clerr Mr. Kemmis, whose circuit was Tipperary, Waterford, k circuit—Mr. ow low, Kilkenny—Mr. Scott, of the Home personally How ley, the Barrister, and others, all said that theyname knew nothing of Ribbonism, and that a Society . under that their could not exist in their respective districts without the subject know ledge. Their Lordships had heard a good . deal __ • with whom Ribbon Societies originated. He of the parties thought that evidence on that subject had been im perfectly stated : but no man could doubt, who had consi dered the evidence fully, with whom these originated. Several of the vvitneses stated that the origin of these Societies was drinking houses. Mr. Drummond had stated that the promoters of Ribbonism were publicans who received money but gave no account. The next matter to which he wished to draw the attention of their Lordships was the orga nization to which these Societies had arrived, and here he felt bound to remark that there was not a single gentleman who had given evidence before the Committee, who had spok en from anything but hearsay ; the evidence that they had, g i ven would not have been received in a court of law. The fact was, blink it as they might, that money, and money alone, was the object of these Societies. Theo came the question whether these Societies were who stgoverne ated that d bhe a central head. A ccor di ng ( Ito Mr. Rowan,gave his testimony from in formation on which he could rely, Dubli n was the seat of the chief Ribbon Board. Another witness stated that Armagh was, and Captain Des l ard said there was a central board, but he did not know where it was. Colonel Shaw Kennedy said he could not trace such a thing as a Central Society, and Colonel M' Gregor stated the same thing. Mr. O'Ferrall said he did not think they had any general head, or any central object. Major Warburton said they were kept in a slat e o f or ganization; and o th ers said the were kept in authority, but could net t e ll the head. they he inference, therefore, „ was, that there was no central head. Then as to the source from whence the information • • The testimony on Ribbonism was deriv ed. testimony on this point was without exception. Mr. Maxwell Hamilton said his • • information was received from approvers; Mr. Rowan said his informants with but few exceptions, were distressed an d unfortunate. He (Lord Hatherton) meant to say nothing against Mr. Rowan's moral character, but he be. lieved him to be credulous on these things, and a person who would believe things that others would not. Their Lordships could not but remember, that this Committee had been ap pointed upon the ground that the Government had taken no steps to put an end to Ribbonism in Ireland. Now, what had Mr. Drummond stated before that Committee ? Why, he came before it with a vast quantity of documents under his arm , and stated, th a t if their Lordships supposed that the present Government h a d no t d one a ll i n t h e i r power to put down Ribb on i sm , he had evidence to prove that ne, exertion had b een wan ti ng on their part r to b about so desirable a result. If such wasthe . nt went what necessity, he would ask, was th e re for the appoint • of the Committee ?—( Hear, hear.) 'The f only remaintrgep e i ee , in the evidence he would read from 1% r. rummon own words. The Noble and Learned Lord here read p art of the evidence of Mr. Drummond, and also extracts front speeches of Sir Robert Peel in 1814 ' and 1 816. " am which it appeared that the state of , Irela - A d was far worse at that period than at thepresent time. His Noble Friend, during the four years of his administratione hail had the good fortune and the wisdom - i ntroduce many ameliorations, and that administration would be remembered h" haihe people that of Ireland with the most gratef u l f ee li ngs. He d no doubt Noble Friend, Lord Ebrirecgton, would, pursue the same course, and he was confident thtarthe admir able sound sense that distinguished Lord Ebringt.on's character EVENING .EDITION , i