The Sun. — London, England, 1803-03-15 00:00:00

and also the Interest or the Debt ; but there was no certified amount of the Capital of the Debt, he was therefore obliged to ,form the best Estimate in his power. In order to prevent mistake, and to be as sure as possible, he' wool& take the Capital of the Debt at the highest amount, and state it at 1 8,560,0001. which wou ld com pl ete ly cover the Whole of the Debt. Of this sum, as he had 'before stated, 6,000,0001. bore Interest, the annual amount of which was 1,438,7911. This certainly was a most serious sum, and must necessarily be a most serious 'dedudiOn from the Incorise of the Corn. Parry. 'B ut , great as i t was, st i ll i t was a most', satisfadory consideration, that if the state of the Company in 1793, with all the necessary increase of expence in the course of the War,' was compared with its . present state, there would be a correspond. ing increase in the Assets of the Company, at least equal to the Incumbrances incurred, so that the Company were in as good a state as they were at the commencement of the War. In Considering the Debt of the Company, the first thing that naturally' occurred to the mind .was the very high rate of Inte rest which they paid for their Debt ; the Interest amounted to very little short of 9 per cent. He stated this, in the hope that the Committee would bear it in mind, while he adverted to what occurred to.him upon another part •of the subject. If the • Company had no surplus Revenue at all to apply to the liquidation of their Debt, still there was ano. ther operation which they might have recourse to, and which would contribute very materially- to that object, and that was the conversion of their Indian Debt bearing the high Interest he had stated, into an European Debt, This would put the Company into the, possession of a considerable Fund for the ettinEtiOn of their Debt, because ti the difference of Interest between an Indian• Debt, to the amount he had stated, at 9 per Cent., and an European Debt at .5 per Cent, would afford to the Company a ,, s "ving of ab0ut . 5,380,0001. a year. He wished therefore that the Committee would always bear 'n mind that there were applicable to the extindion Of the Debt.not only the existing Funds, but the saving to be made by this change,in the nature of the Debt. The present means, which the Company posSessed to meet their incumbrances must arise from their Revenues abroad, and'from their Capital at home. The estimated Revenues, according to the latest accounts which had been received, would be altogether 11,976, t 801. ; the estimated Charges • were 9,346,3691.; there would then remain a surplus of 2,729,8111. from this, however, was to tu4 'dedaeled die Commercial Charges, the Supplies to Bencotilen, and' the Interest ot the Debt, and there would then remain a nett surplus of 1,053,5821. This Surplus arose partly from an increase in the k ilev enue, and partly from some redutions which had been made in the expences. No redudion, however, had been taken credit for, which had not been adually accomplished, though there were Others in contemplation which he hoped would be extremely produdive: In adverting to this Subjed, it was impossible that the attention of the COmmit. tee should not be turned to the Noble'Persem now at the head of the Government in India, the Mar. quis WELLESLEY ; anti he. would venture to say, that high as his character stood upon other gro r unds; • it would stand still higher when the measures he had adopted for improving the Finances of the Cont. palsy were considered; it would be' found that the Same energy ,of mind, which carried him through the other difficulties which surrounded him, had par., ticu larlycharaderized his financial , arrangetnents.— H aving, however, mentioned t h e R e d u t t i ons w hi ch had .been made, he wished that the Committee should not entertain any apprehensions that they were such as would in any degree endanger the safety • °f our Empire in India, and perhaps the best way to satisfy the Committee upon this head would be, to state the amount of Our Army in India. It amounted to 2.4;o00 Europeans, of Whom 17,000 were King's Troops. The Native Force amount ed to 89,000 Men ; and the, Irregular Force, in. . eluding Lascars, to 10,000, making altogelher an Army of above 124,000 Men; With such a force, there' vvas no ground for apprehensiOns either from attacks from Europe, or from contests in His Lordship then proceeded to comment upon the Commercial State of "the Company, and contended, that nothing could shake them in the Commerce of the East, because nobody would embark a large Capital against a Company that had so large a Sur. plus Revenue, which they must remit to Europe, and which must enable them to drive any Competitor out of the market. With regard to the sum which . at -the last renewal of the Company's Charter was to be paid to the Public, the non.payment of it' had OnlY been occasioned by the War, but ,undoubtedly in the event of the continuance of P eace , the Payment would be regularly made. According to the At for the renewal of the Ch arter , t h e appropr i at i on of their surplus,Revenue was as follow s : the first half million was to answer 'Bills from India, the second • half million was to be paid to the Public, and the remainder was to go in extindion of the Debt. The result of this statement would be, that after paying the Public 500,0001. a.year, 'there would remain a sum of above one million applicable to the reduCtion of the Debt, independent of - the Measure to which he had before alluded, of the conversion the Debt. He Wished here to observe, that it was not in content. elation to liqoidate the whole of the Debt, it was proper, for many reasons, that a part of the Debt should remain ; 'one of those reasons was,, that the • advantages they have under our Government) in the Permanence- of the Company. Supposing then the amount of Debt to be reduced was 12,000,0001. a nd the sum applicable to. the reduCtion to . he 2,0 0cn0001. a y ear , i t wou ld o b v i ous l y b e d in• six years, and the interest due . upon the remaind er , taking' it even at 6 per Ce n t. would be On ly 2 40,0001. a year.: He presumed that the inte rest Might, under these circumstances, be reduced to 6 Per Cent. and in the present state of .thC,COMpiilly'S affairs, they would not have occasion to raise any money f or t h e first tWo years. , He was aware that the Committee alight suppose that he was giving an exaggerated accourst of the affairs of the Corn. fanYs but h e wou l d state the grounds of his Cajetl ati°n as applyin g to t h e a l ternat i ve t i t h er ' o f P eace or f ) ar ' His Lordship t h en e nte r e d i n to the tl)( vi )wing statement of the Company, and the ap- Vlicability of those means to the liquidation of their j t t d e bts. ntle had b" fare stated tie surplus of their Foreign Revenue he now came to consider their Home .Surplus. _ _ Four years average to March ao2, £.06,374 Add nett Surplus abroad - -10,53,58 z 1 , 4 20 ,4; 6 Say nett Proceeds - - ~ - z,i00,c.03 The proportional Profits on an Investment of tour Millions will be more. DISTRIBUTION OF NETT PROCEEDS. ,Pul?lic.Partick i sation - - - scio,ooo 'Reduction of Debt - - - - T,000,000 Proposed Sinking Fund to be applied in each year ' 2,0•0,0n0 Till the capital in India bearing interest is reduced • to ;-. - • - 4000,000 'Ainount to be reduced - - - 12,000,000 Time required, Six Years. Annual Sinking Fund to be constituted as fol lows :' From Nett Proceeds as above - i,000,000 Rom Savings oflnterest.and Loans in Europe r,000,000 Total ,C .2,000,000 The Sinking Fund will operate as underneath, supposing the rate of Interest to be gradually re. duced, till it shall stand at 6 per cent. Ihdian Debt will bereduced April 1809 to 4. 4,000,000 Ihterest - - - - z 40,000 ' The 12 Millions paid off will have been supplied as follows : Surplus from Nett Proceeds for six years - 4.6,000,000 Savings of Interest in the same period - 2,71,3,000 To be furnished from Europe 3,287,000 2,000,000 Of the sum to be furnished from Europe, not more than 2,000,0001. need be rai,ed by Loan, the re- payments from Government for the Egyptian Ex.;, pedition, &c. will cover the remainder ; and this sum, subjea to' be reduced by any improvement of nett proceeds which may happen, either in . the Re. venues-or Commercial profits. State. of affairs at the end of six years Indian Surplus, April 1809 Z 2,250,000 Home Surplus - 4i0,00e 2,70.),000 • SOo,OOO Dedud;-Public Participition 2,200,000 Supposing two Millions raised, in aid of Sinking Fund, by adding to Capital, dedua Interest at 5 per Cent. - OP Too,ooo 2, 100,000 . . Nett Proceeds, subjeel to ulterior appropriations, viz.—t.6th to Proprietors to increase Dividends. 350,000 . 5-6 tn to he invested in the Funds to counter. secure Capital - - zmo,ooo 2,100,000 The operation of the above appropriation until the year 5813.1+, when the Charter would expire, unless sooner renewed, would be to increase the Company's Dividends annually, by, one.half, viz. 350,0001. and to accumulate, at '4 per cent. Com pound interest, during. the five years, a gdarantee Fund of 9,485,0001. • . In the event of War, the Indian Surplus Must be necessarily reduced. The Reduaions of Charge since the Peace, amount per estimate to '783,0001. per Annum. Allowing for a War Establishment equal in extent' to that at the close of the late War, there will still remain nett proceeds 717,0c0i. But to mAke the most ample allowance, take the War charges at •r,000,0001. there will still remain nett proceeds 500,0001. applicable to the reduction of debt.—ln this case the participation of the Pub lic would necessarily be suspended during War, and would revive upon the, reductions' resulting from Peace.. With such A disposable surplus, provided the , transfer of 'Funds from Europe to India, .shall meet with no interruption in time of War, the cunir4(7l. ing of fresh Loans may not only be avoided, but a system of liquidation upon principles similar to those above stated, be pursued even durin& War, though necessarily upon a reduced scale. For executing the above measure, and for the ex tension of Trade, the Company possess the follow ing available Resources May add to their Capital two Millions, at 220 per Cent. - - .4,4•0,000 More Bonds may be jailed with consent of Trea sury 1,000,000 Suppose as above, raised for Sinking Fund Remains for extension of Tiade - 5 , 4°° ,000 2,000,000 3,403,000 Having gone 'through the whole of this Statement with the greatest clearness and precision, his Lord., ship said, that although the continuance of Peace must be to India, as it must he to this Country, and to the whole World, the greatest blessing, yet, if contrary to our hopes arid, endeavours we should be again plunged into a War, he was sure, there was no part of our Empire better prepared to meet the alternative of War, than the India Company. They had now finished a War of ten years continuance they had not only to contend against the European War, but they also had to contend with the Powers of India. In fad, it might be said, that they had been constantly at War since the , first operations of Lord CORNWALLIS. All this they bad done with unimpaired means, with undiminished re sources ; they had now an Empire double in extent and in revenue, and, although they had added ten millions to theit Debt, their, means had increased . in a corresponding ratio. If this was their situation in a period of War, what would . have been their condition Win the enjoyment of Peace? But their Revenue had nut only kept up in the manner he had stated, they had also provided against great and heavy Establishments; they had made arrangements for mole comfortable provision for the Officers aod • Troops on their Establishment; they had also made an establishment for the better adminisiratibn of justice, and all this bad made an increase in their expenditure . of near one million a-year, a sum almost equal to the amount of the interest of their Debt. This statement must he Was sure, be satisfattory to the Public, and must shew that there was every probability of this Country ,deriving a great and essential support from India, and that' the Company would have the means, at no remote period, of paying to the Public a sum of half a million a year; and of reinforcing the Sinking Fund with no less than one milliOn and a Italia year. This completely justified the statement of his Noble Friend, who had preceded him in the Office he now held,; and whose predietions %vapid have been sooner verified if it had not been for the War in which this country was engaged. in the event of another `War, this Country must; for a time, give up the annual ha:l million which the Company was to pay, but the Company would have one million 4.yeg applicable to the teduaion of its Debt, which, liven upon the least rirourable c4tcutatiott, much discharge it in-twelve years. Therefore, in what. ever view the .subjed was considered, whether in the alternative of Peace or. War, there was_ no ground for alarm, but the most solid and will_ grounded rasped of,prosperity. He had thought Chis duty to submit , these considerations to, the ommittee as subjeCts which they ought to tinder stand, Sand if he himself understood the subject, the pro Sped was founded upon the_most solid baSis. If the Peace continued, the Public would next year ob tain their particiption. of the Company's Surplus Revenue, and the Company would have z,000,0001, applicable to the reduttion of its Debt. If War un. fortunately took place, this Country must forego for a time the halt million a year, but the CoMpany would still have one million a year for the liquid,a lion of its Debt. He should now move the Reso lutions, but if any Gentleman wished for further time to consider the subjed, the Resolutions might be moved pro forma at present, and the discussion postponed to another day. _ _ _ He then moved the first Resolution-- Mr. JOHNSTONE, said, he should not trouble the House many minutes ; he had to observe, that the Indian Debt- had greatly increased within a short time on looking over the Papers, he found that the Company were seven hundred thousand pounds worse at this period than they were a few years back. He said, the money owing to them was to be considered as bad debts, which in all probability they never would receive. Some of the, Accounts contain very, accurate statements, but many others of the Accounts are very incorreCt ; and he would venture to say, that when the "Company paid 'all their legal Debts, they would find a deficiency of many thousand's. The extraordinary Revenue arose from the Company having such a desire for territo. rial possessions, which involved the Company in additional and unnecessary expence. The Customs also came under his observation, which he very much disapproved of, as inimical to the prosperity of that Country : he said, every article that was sold - in India bore a heavy tax the same species of tax was known in Spain, which had in souse measure reduced the importance of the Trade of that Nation. But which Tax Lord CORNWALLIs (whose policy was 'soma' and brilliant) had repealed in India, from a thorough cony ielion of its ill rads to that Country.. The successive Estimates of the State of that Country prove that the,expenditure has gone much farther than was expeCted ; he stated that the trade 'of China had been more profitable to the Company, than the trade of any, other part of India. The Court of Direaars had told the Public, that thelndian Debt had increased to twelve hundred thousand pounds, which arose from their extraor. dinary disbursements,' but which has been found to turn out a deficiency of eighteen kindred thousand. He observed,, that his_ Lordship had told us with great pleasure, „that we have increased the Indian territories, by which we had received 'many advarn. rages ; but he .was sure that we had reduced the consequence of the Country. He said, that we had committed a breach of faith in India, and that we had been guilty of as.much injustice in India, as the French had been in Europe. lie concluded by say ing that the Estimates presented to the House were farfr r o d ni c ac ii cmte s , and not to be depended upon. Lord REACH . said, he' did not wish to enter ions a discussion on, the subjedao.night, nor did he wish the Vote of the House till they had minutely examined the Estimates laid before them ; yet he could not help saying, that the Learned .Gen. tleman had misconceived Many parts of the Esti. mates. His Loidship then entered into a long ex planation, which was only a recapitulation of his former- Statement, and concluded by saying, that when the Resolutions were read, he should be happy to hear any Gentleman address the Committee on the question ; and he should also be happy to give every explanation that 'could possibly be wished for. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER -said, he should not have said a word on the present subjen, had it not been for an expression made use (Irby the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last. He had charged our condua in India as a breach of gOod faith.l - The Hon. Gentleman ,must allow him to complain of this statement, and of the time in which it was made", for it was a time When the subject to which the assertion referred, could not be examined, and. when therefore no corre4 opinion could be formed by an individual, Upon the. subjeft ; it was therefore to him a matter of regret that this asser. tion had been made;* therefore he would ask of the House, and he was confident that lie should not ask in : vain, that they would keep their minds clear' upon the matter and free of bias, until they should have an opportunity of looking into all the circum stances of it, and this he was aware the House would do 'without any suggestion from him, but he stated this merely by way of caution to some.india ' viduals, because he knew - that unfavourable impres skins might be made, when boldohough groundless assertions were made, afteaing the charadel.s of meritorious individuals, who had, been zealously engaged in the 'service of their Country. It was too-much that they should be made to sufferin their charatter him a broad unfounded assertion ; ft was painful to suppose that they might be affected in this manner, and that they should, fur a time even,' be deprived of that which was a considerable part of their reward, namely, the approbation of their Country ; the whole of their conduct therefore ought to be left untouched, until they had an opportunity to explain it themselves, or by those who might derive information from' them when they returned, when he had no doubt their conduCt would,do.them honour I for these reasons he begged leave to object to the expression of the Hon. Gentleman which stated that Great Brialtin - was stigmatized With a breach of, faith in India. He begged pardon Of the Committee for having called its attention aside upon :this occasion for a moment, but it appeared to him to be a debt to JUstier, to rake care that no inju. rious impression shooh;a4ie matte on the charaeters of gallant men who had ao bravely acted in the service of their Country. Sir lIUGH INGLIS supported the conduCt of t h e E ast Indi a Company. He gave an account of the Trade, Public and Private, for the last four years, and maintained, that it was &great objeft to this Country to preserve it in its present course, instead-of suffering it, to run into another channel. Ke thotightit necessary disO to do away false . , prest;ons, tyhteli might fie nude by unfounded as_ sertions. W. FRANCIS .objeaed fo the ttatement of the Noble. Lord who brought this subject forward this night, because the whole of It proceeded on esti mates, which contained many things which might or might not be made good ; and also some false documents. He looked upon all estimates as no better than promises ; and although he had no claim to, infallibility, yet he possessed some experience upon this subjea ; but he •should Speak this night as a mere Member of Parliament, as' if h e had never been in India. Nov these Estimates were no berter than promises, and he knew very well that promises had been held out from year toyear, but the result was, that the HEIN of the Company were always rather worse afterwards than when the promises were made Nothing could be more distinst than that, on the renewal of fl.e. Charter, 500,0001. a year was to have been paid by the Company to the Public, upon which, how_ ever, no more had ever been adually received than the fruits of one rear. The Noble Person who.had the arrangement of these affairs formerly-under his care (Lord Viscourt Mel,' LLO had considered the Affairs of India as if there had been no War to inter. fere in the arrangement, and now the Noble Lord could not make the difference he proposed in his statement as between War and Peace, Witilf)Ut de. setting the system of his Noble Predecessor. The Noble Lord had said, that India would never be a drain on this Country,. but might afford it, material support, in which he adopted the language of his Noble Predecessor ; but it was not to be forgotten, that was a promise, which had bee n h e ld ou r for the' last twenty 'years, but 'which - had never yet been kept. So much of promises, and Estimates, which were no better than promises. He then proceeded to take a view of the Accounts which had been laid before the House on the part bf the India CoMpany, and contended they were extremely defeaive, and that the whole statement of to-night was fallacious, and. therefore not to be relied ;, he charged the Accounts with having been fabricated for the pur. pose of imposing on the House and the Public by \ making a false balance. He con t en d e d t h at t h e ca pi. tal stock of the East India Company ought to have been stated, which it was not. It was stated in the' year 1793, and amounted to no less than 7,807,0001. ; there was also a claim stated by the Company, amounting to 3,000,0001. which the Noble Lord him. self said was of a nature that made it doubtful whether it would be allowed or not, so that this made the real state of the Accounts of the Company r0,0a0,0001. more than it appeared ,on the face of the present Statement. He contended, that upon fair state. 'merit of the Accounts of the :India Company, instead of a balance in their favour, it would be against them. He complained of these Statements as con trivances to give to. the House and to the Public, a false view of the affairs of the East India Company, and that made him have recourse to his original. proposition, that upon the subjed of the East India, Company's Affairs, promises had been • held out from year to year•which had never been realized. Lord C ASTLERE AG If admitted that it was fair that the accounts of the affairs of the East India Company should be examined, but the Committee would recollea that what was now before it was a comparison of the afftirs of the Company at different perimis, chiefly with a view of, considering whether the War had injured their affairs or not,.and com paring all the debts of the Company and thEir assets together.—The Hon. Gentleman had said that these accounts were given in with a view of giving incur. reef information, and this he said, was done by l eay . ing out of the account the whole of the Capital of the Company, which he stated to he above seven mil lions. There was no force in this objedion ; there could be no imposition upon any body by this, be cause it was known by every -body what the amount of that Capital was, and leaving out of the account that which was perfealy notorious, could answer no purpose' whatever of imposit.ion, and therefore when the Honourable Gentleman called this a false account for the purpose of imposing upon the Public, he was carrying the argument fur. then than, upon reflefflon, he would be inclined to do. He took off from the account the whole of the Note of the Charge made as being due to the India Company from Goveinment. ' Whether it was to fall on Government or on the Company, was a point hereafter to be determiped, but it could oily be stated 'in the way it had been. As to the result of the statement, the Hon. Gentleman might make it for himself. It would stand thu4 :—Debts in Europe, including the Capital which the Hon. Gen. tletriAn alluded to, ' amounted to 2,600,0001.-•.. r. Debts in , India, bearing Interest, t6,000 t 0001. Assets in Eurcipe were t 7,000,0001.-111 Gooo,oool. making in all, 28,000,0001. 'in this account there was no Dead Stock stared, though , that was of great value ; nor was this all the pro perty.of the Company, for it must be remembered, that they had great territorial possessions. in India, besides what they derived under the Sweeping Clause of their Charter, alai therefore there was a vast mass of property in the Company, which was not brought to the Credit side of this Account, and therefore the Committee would clearry.see, flair this was not an account laid before them for the purpose Of imposing a false balance in favour of the Com. patty. The truth of the matter was this—that after discharging all their engagements,. the Company will have-One million a year, even in case of War, applicable to the teduktion of their Debts, and if there was another such Company in this. world, he should be glad to be informed where to find it. Mr. FILMIC'S persisted in his former Statement, and maintained that hp was borne out by the Ac. counts now upon the Table. Mr. Will. DUND AS Observed, that the manner in which his Noble Friend had opened this subjedi was so clear that there was but little to go over in the Accounts again ; but something stated by the Hon. Member who spoke last, called for an answer, • and that which he should give, should be very short. The Hon. Gentleman said, that the Account before the Committee was false, inasmuch as it did not contain the Capital Stock : of the Company, By this one would think, there was some mystery about the matter, that there was something un. known about it ; bur instead of that, it was it mat. ter of so perfed a nototiety, that one of the Clerks of the India. House would land'!, at attlY