The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-19 00:00:00

SPIRIT of the PUBLIC JOURNALS. FROM THE EVENING PAPERS OF YESTERDAY. STANDARD.—The debate on Lord Ashley's Bill will be resumed to-night. Whatever the re sult of the present discussion, we regard the im mediate result as comparatively indifferent, because the question of the fate of the ten hours' restric tion is merely a matter of time—earlier or later the restriction will be adopted. Nine years ago we said of the clauses respecting the illegitimate chil dren in the New Poor-law, and of the univer sal application of the workhouse test, that they must be given up ; and we have lived to see them both abandoned. With equal certainty do we predict that the ten hours' restriction must be adopted 'sooner or later, and we found our prediction upon the same grounds--the total absence of sound argument in favour of prolonged labour, and the repugnance of the universal feeling to such cruelty. The present Parliament may give this cruelty a little longer lease, but that is all ; it may make, as in the case of the cruel clauses of the New Poor-law, a temporary addition to the sum of human misery ; but the addition can be but temporary, and finite. The sentence has gone forth—the tyranny of prolonged labour is doomed: . Cant—the cant of political eco nomy—which so long protected it, is dead and gone, • and the arguments which it has been attempted to substi tute for cant give way to the gentlest breath of reason. Mr. Bright says that an abridgement of the hours of labour will reduce wages, and that it will also raise prices. How can it do both? We believe, indeed, that it will do both, but, in a very different sense from what Mr. Bright threatens ; we believe that it will reduce daily wages and greatly augment annual wages, by giving constant employment in stead of monthly gushes to be followed by half-yearly gluts; we believe that 'it will raise prices, by restoring the character in the market of British fabrics—for paste, starch, gypsum, and devil's dust, will not be the resources of a steady trade, . such as a short time Bill must ne cessarily enforce ; and so confident are we in this respect, that we believe that nothing but a short time Bill can save the manufacturers of this country from early destruction ; but we shall not go further until we hear, what we have not yet heard, a plausible argument against Lord Ashley's motion. By the way, we omitted to notice on Saturday the finest thing that has occurred in Parliament for many years— Quaker Bright's attack upon Lord Ashley, and Lord Ashley's reply. Nature seems to have moulded the two men, in form as well as in mind, to represent the extremes of the species ; within a species no contrast was ever so strikingly complete. The Quaker accused the nobleman of having acted with generosity and courtesy towards a wretch who had proved himself unworthy of credit ; and then, upon the evidence of this his rotten witness, he made a charge of subornation. Lord Ashley was compelled to plead guilty to the charge of generosity and cour tesy (they who know the Noble Lord best know that he is overwhelmed with such sins), but- showed that he had never suborned the informer or used his evidence. Thus the account stands—Quaker Bright is innocent of generosity or courtesy, but he know ingly uses the testimony of a corrupt witness. s Of generosity and courtesy to an unworthy person Lord Ashley stands convicted; but of using, or intending to use, the fellow's testimony, the Noble Lord is as guiltless as the reader of these lines. GLOBE.—The Standard doubts whether any existing law, ecclesiastical or civil, will reach the case, the recent self-exposure of which has conferred unenviable notoriety on the Rev. Herbert Marsh. We should have expected that this would have ex cited unqualified regret in a journal which pro fesses superior zeal for the stability and efficiency of the National Church—results which depend, to a very considerable extent, on the reputation of its clergy in the estimation of the laity. This, however, is not the case. Our Contemporary remarks :—" We regret that the Church cannot be relieved of the un• worthy Rector of Barnack ; but we own that our re gret is somewhat alleviated by the consideration that the escape of that unworthy person spares the Bishop of Peterborough a fine of 1,0001., and it might be 2,0001." That the Chirch cannot be relieved of the unworthy Rector of Barnack, is a subject of regret. But how much more deep would be the sorrow, because so much more would be the calamity, if the Church Discipline Act took a wider range, and instead of limiting the in terference of the Bishop to offences committed within two years, extended his episcopal powers over licen tious and profligate conduct in clergymen, belonging to his diocese, to four or five years ! This would be truly afflictive to the Bishops, and entitle them to commiseration from all who love and venerate the order ! We are not convinced by the reasoning of our Contemporary of the fact which he labours to establish that the pecuniary cost to the Bishop, in prosecuting, and thus condignly punishing, a flagrantly immoral clergyman, would be a more serious infliction on the Pre late's purse, than to permit such a scandal to con tinue fastened on the Church itself. The stns of Eli "made themselves vile." Their father—invested, as High Priest, with the power of putting the pro fligates out of the priesthood, which they had pol luted and disgraced—suffered himself to be influenced by parental affection, and merely expostulated, when the strong arm of authority ought to have arrested them, and punished their debaucheries. Need the consequences be told ? It is bad enough that the son of a Bishop, who was therefore placed in possession of one of the richest benefices in the kingdom, the patronage of which pertained to the see of Peterborough, which his father held, with the addi tion of a canonry in his father's Cathedral church, should thus debase himself and disgrace his order. Elevated as he was in ecclesiastical station, and enriched with worldly wealth, we say it is bad enough for it to be made public, that de plorable depravity has been the habitual course of a Church dignitary's life. But that his es cape from punishment should he regarded rather as matter for congratulation than regret, and this solely on such considerations as those stated by the Standard, is not merely matter of surprise, but— aside from all party distinctions—we unfeignedly say, of surprise and sorrow. While the matter re mained concealed, the offence was limited in its results to the individual. To his own conscience, and to the solemn responsibilities of another state of being, the guilty individual was alone ac countable. But when proclaimed abroad, as • his conduct has been, the Church to which he belongs becomes • subjected to the obloquy of his offences against morality ; and, if she fail to roll away the reproach, and to wash her hands from the iniquity by thrusting the offenders from her altars, the effect of such connivance, indifference, or even inability, by defect in her laws, to reach a case so fraught with sca n d a l, canno t fail to be most injurious to her character, if not perilous to her safety as a national institution. Ths Standard asks—" Is it politic thus to impose a penalty upon the Bishop's vigilance, and to make it thus his in terest to connive at the offences of those whom•he is appointed to superintend?" We think the penalties arises out of the responsibilities which every Bishop assumes when invested with the episco pate. If he be not vigilant, but dilatory in the dis charge of his duties—if instead of enforcing the disci pline of the Church against any immoral clergyman whose delinquencies may be brought before him, he be " thankful" for any loophole of escape from the impera tive obligation, and claim credit for having evinced a " backwardness "to interfere—if, in fact, from any merely personal considerations, he " connive at the offences of those whom he is appointed to superin tend" — we think he becomes " a partaker of their evil deeds." A Bishop's want of vigilance will give a tacit encouragement to vice. He will thus not , only draw down upon his own head a fearful weight of punishment ; he will expose the Church, of which he is required to be a light and a defence, to the dangers which result from laXity of morals and impurity of life in those who are appointed to the office of the ministry within he r pale.. Talk of' the hardship o f exposing a Bishop, with a revenue of several thousa n d s a year, and Pa' large extent of patronage, to the " penalty" of an occasional pecuniary outlay, in the shape of costs, for prosecuting and punishing a grossly immoral clergy man ! Will the Standard ascertain the " penalty" to which a Bishop exposes himself for screening such a clergyman from punishment ? Besides, if a Bishop present an individual who is utterly unfit for his office, ought there not to be a "penalty" for having done so ? As the rectory of Barnack is a preferment in the Bishop's gift, if the Bishop's predecessor, by virtue of his right, presented an unfit person to the living, his successor ought to be content with having the presentation for the "penalty" of getting rid of the nuisance. A half-year's stipend would more than cover the costs of ejecting the "gallant, gay Lothario ;" who might then take up his residence at Madame Lodon's establishment, uninterrupted by the necessity of tak ing his turn in residence, as one of tle canons of Peterborough, and undistracted by the duties of the cure .of souls at Barnack. There is really something appalling in the way in which the Bishop of Peterborough explained what he could unques tionably do, under the circumstances of this pain ful case. He could procure from the Archbishop a permission for him to be non-resident ! That which would be refused to a poor rector, except for a limited period, and then only under circumstances of extreme necessity, might be obtained for an habitual profligate, as the most ready way of getting rid of him, and of his scandal ! A curate,, to whom he would have to pay less than a tithe of his income, would do all the duty; the rector might then vary, at plea Sure, the scenes and the subjects of his guilty amours. The revenues of the Church which he had disgraced, and of the ministers he had dishonoured, will supply the means! . . Mr. Dean Chair man of the Cu.stOins, had an interview with the chtincBl.lor of the F4cheeporyeaterday. • t - LAW INTELLIGENCE. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 18. Their Lordships sat to-day in a Committee for Privi leges. The Peers present were the Lord Chancellor, the Earl of Shaftesbury, Lord Kenyon, Lord Sondes, Viscount Strangford, the Marquis Camden, and the Bishop of Lichfield and Coventry. FITZWALTER BARONY. "Witnesses were examined on the part of the claimant to this Barony, and the further consideration of the claim was adjourned till after Easter. DRUMMOND V. WALDROND. The further arguments in this part-heard appeal were resumed, but not having concluded at four o'clock, the further consideration of the case was adjourned till to morrow (this day.) POLICE INTELLIGENCE. (YESTERDAY.) MANSION-HOUSE. TIM WILL FORGERlES.—Yesterday, William Sanders, the brother-in-law of Mrs. Dorey, and the husband of the woman who is supposed to have represented Emma Slack, the counterfeit relation of Anne Slack, was brought before the Lord Mayor, in the custody of John Forrester the officer, charged with being concerned with others in plundering the Government. Mr. Freshfield,`the Solicitor to the Bank of England, stated that the prisoner had been apprehended as an agent in the case which was under investigation at the Mansion-house, relative to the late will forgeries. It was known to those employed for the prosecution, that the prisoner, his wife, and Mrs. Dorey, the sister of the prisoner's wife, were guilty agents in the transactions which had been for some time under investigation at the Mansion-house ; and John Forrester had been sent to Bristol to take into custody any of those who were be lieved to have participated in the offence. It was im possible to give to the able officers, the two brothers Forrester, too much credit for the manner ia which they had been engaged in that matter. The prisoner and his wife had decamped when the prosecutions in which they' had been concerned were brought be fore the public, and John Forrester pursued them from place to place, until he at last traced them to Edin burgh, where on Wednesday last he apprehended the prisoner. The object of the prosecutors at _present was to give as much evidence as would justify the Lord Mayor in remanding the prisoner - until the day on which the other prisoners charged w ith having been concerned in the conspiracy, are to be brought up for final examination. The case on which the prisoner was accused of having been concerned was, that in which the relative of Mary Hunt was personated. Mary Hunt it appeared, had had three sums of stock in the Bank of England, at the time of her death. She died in the year 1806. Her executors happened to claim no more than two of these sums, and the third was handed over to the Commissioners for the reduction of the national debt. Joshua Fletcher became acquinted with that cir cumstance, and caused the prisoner to personate Thomas Hunt, and to claim the amount under that name. Mr. John William Seaton, produced the document purporting to be the will of Mary Hunt. It was, he said, proved on the 19th of November, 1806, and pur ported to be the wilt of Mary Hunt, of the city of Bristol, widow, with two codicils. The LORD MAYOR asked the prisoner whether he wished to ask the witness any questions. - The prisoner —I shall be prepared on the next day of examination with a solicitor, and I decline asking any question until that time. Francis Joseph Green, of No. 35, Berwick-street, stated that he had known the prisoner 13 years. The prisoner's name was William Sanders, and he lodged at witness's house. The prisoner's wife, and Georgina Richards, and an old lady, the mother of Mrs. Sanders and of Georgiana Richards, were lodging in the house at the time. He believed that it was about nine years ago since the transaction occurred. Edmund Crawley of No. 11 n, Tottenham Court-road, said that he knew the prisoner, to the best of his recol lection. The prisoner resided in his house in March or May, 1842, for about three weeks, in the name of Tho mas Hunt. Understood that the prisoner came to town from Quebec. The prisoner pretended that he had business to transact in London, and he hoped he should be able to return soon. Mr. Thomas Anthony Thatcher, of Doctor's-com mons, stated that Mr. Barber came to him, accompanied by another person, to prove a will. The person who ac companied Mr. Barber gave the name of Thomas Hunt. Witness could not positively swear that the prisoner was the identical man, but he was about the same height and size. Mr. George Wolf, clerk in the public drawing-office of the Bank of England, stated that on the Ist of June, 1842, he paid to the order of Mary Hunt, in favour of Thomas Hunt, the sum of 4251. 12s. To the best of his belief the prisoner, whogave in his name as Thos. Hunt, was the person. The prisoner was then ordered to be remanded till the day OR which the other prisoners should be brought up, _ _ The LORD MAYOR said he had received a letteiwhic, he should wish to be made public, in consequence of the annoyance and embarrassment which the publication would be calculated to prevent. It was as follows : " MALAWNEY, ROUEN. "My Lord,—l have been requested by Messrs. M'Kenzie and Smelley to adopt some means of prevent ing, if possible, the continued ingress of English work men, who, it appears, have been induced by the repre sentations of certain interested individuals, to come over to France in the hope of finding employment on the Rouen and Havre Railway, and I have thought that your Lordship would allow me to address you on the subject, trusting that a notice from your Lordship on the bench might give such publicity to the facts as would prevent the evil which we have so much cause here to regret. "In consequence of some difficulty in the way of pro curing land, the works on the said railway cannot be proceeded with to any extent for some weeks to come, and although there are many men fully employed, hun dreds are actually starving from want of employment, and through the benevolence of the above-mentioned gentlemen, I have to-day, and for the last fourteen days, supplied upwards of 120 poor men, who are wandering about Rouen without work or any prospect of employ ment for some time to come, with food and other means of support. Hoping your Lordship will excuse this liberty with your time and attention, I have the honour to remain, your Lordship's humble and devoted servant, "SAMUEL TACKER. " To the Right Hon. the Lord Mayor." CLE.RKENWELL. The number of charges for drunkenness and its con comitant offences, rioting and a'saults on the police, was not Unusually great at this Court yesterday. The ex tensive and densely populated district over which this Court has jurisdiction includes the worst parts of St. Giles, Saffron-hill, and the low neighbourhoods adjacent to Smithfield. All these localities are chiefly inhabited by the lowest class of Irish, and before Father Mathew commenced his labours they were, on St. Patrick's-day, scenes of debauchery and uproar. On Sunday, however, the shamrock was kept at low water mark, and many a poor fellow who formerly spent his St. Patrick's night at the station-house, on this occasion slept quietly and soberly at home on Sunday night. Among those charged with drunkenness was an old weather-beaten seaman whose head was whitened with the snows of at least 70 winters. He was found lying insensibly drunk in Islington. The poor old fellow appealed to Mr. Combe, the sitting magistrate, to discharge him, on the ground that he had been wounded in two naval engageinents, and had served for years in the ship which the immortal Nelson commanded. The worthy magistrate discharged -hm. Mr. William Samell Roper, a surgeon, residing in Gray's Inn-terrace was charged with having b een d run k and assaulting Police-constable Webb, 106 G, and also Police-constable 110 G. Webb saw the prisoner get out of a cab in Gray's Inn lane, at two o'oclock on that morning. Upon inquiry, the cab-driver informed the officer that he h a d b een . . driving the gentleman about for the last two hours, and that he (the prisoner) did not seem to know where he was going. The constable accompanied the prisoner to his house, at which he knocked, and when the door was opened refused to enter it, saying it was not his house. He was in liquor, became very insolent, kicked Webb on the shins, attempted to throw him on the pavement, and broke his stick bystriking the other officer on the collar bone. The blow hurt him very much, the part having been tender from the bone having been, at one time, broken. Mr. COMBE—What have yon to say to the charge ? Prisoner—Well, really, I cannot recollect anything about it. Mr. COMBE—You must pay a fine of 1Z for the assaults on the constables. Prisoner—l decline paying any money. Mr. COMBE—Then you must go to the House of Cor rection for three weeks.—The fine was paid at once. Two lads, named Smith and Roland, were charged with assaulting two constables of the E division.—Smith was fined 55., and Roland discharged. An old woman, named Anne Burrows, was brought up on remand, charged with stealing a few pounds of butter. The prosecutor was not in attendance, and Webb, 106 G, the officer who had charge of the case, declared that he believed the statement made by the prisoner on a former occasion, that starvation forced her to commit the offence, was literally true. 'He had been in her lodging, a garret, in Tash-court, Gray's Inn• lane, and had never before seen such squalid misery. There ii as not an article of furniture in the place, nor a morsel of food of any description. A few chips, strewn on the floor in a corner of the room, served her for a bed, and she had neither blanket, or sheet, or any other descrip tion of covering, except the rags she wore as wearing apparel. Mr. COMBE said he thought the best course was to send her to the Holborn union workhouse. The unfortunate prisoner embraced the proposal with joyful gratitude, and was sent to the workhouse. Stephen Anser was charged with deserting his three children, whereby they became chargeable to Islington parish. _ The poor children were found wandering about the street on Tuesday last. It was raining very fast at the Lime, and the poor children, when asked where they were going t o , rep li ed they did not know. They had been turned out of doors. Their mother had likewise abandoned them. Mr. COMBE committed the prisoner for a fortnight. - - A dreadful accident occurred on the 13th in the Commune of St. Prive, A female of that place had ascended with her son to the fourth story of his windmill, situated at St. Mesmin, and was standing near the edge, when the wind carried her dress to an iron bar which was used to raise bags by turning round. The dress got wound round this piece of iron, and the bar was immediately put in motion, and carried the victim round and round, notwithstanding all the efforts of her son to prevent it. He then rushed down and stopped - the - mill, but when he returned he found his mother literally crushed to pieces, having been forced by each rotation against the.ceiling. She breathed her last immediately after. 18E SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVEN/ NO, MA RCII 19, 1844. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. of years; but it must be granted, that in this case the holders of the stock were entitled to some bonus. They had received no bonus by any increase to their capital, and when it was considered that there were 81,000 holders of this stoek, whose income did not exceed 101. a year, as they had no bonus on their capital, it seemed but fair and reasonable that theyshotild havesuch a bonus as that which was granted to them by this mea sure. In respect to what his Noble Friend (Lord Monte agh.) had said touching the diminution of the charge of the public debt, that statement was, no doubt, an accurate one, and afforded a strong proof of the high cha racter and credit of this country. In the year 1829 he had himself called the atten tion of their Lordships' House to that subject. Between the year 1815, when that charge was at its highest, and the year he had just referred to, the diminution of this charge had not been less than 4,000,000/, representing a capital of 130,000,000/. Since that period other reductions had taken place; and, making allowance for the 20,000,000/. required to carry into effect the measure for the abolition of slavery, the reduction in the charge fur the funded and unfunded debt was considerably more than 4,000,000/. annually. This showed most clearly and satisfactorily, that while they scrupulously respected good faith, they were enablcd from time to time, to get rid of some portion of their debt. Lord MONTEAGLE wished to add one word to what had fallen from him, and give his meed of praise to that part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's plan which went to equalise the payments of the dividends. This was not called for out of doors, nor had it any necessary connexion with the plan itself ; but having regard to the currency, and the engagements of the country, he looked upon it as a measure fraught with the highest advantage to all classes of the country. The two Bills for the reduction of the two classes of Three-and a-Half per Centum Annuities were then read a second time. _ to none of those petitions or speeches, which tended to the injury or destructions of the Protestant Church of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Let them do whatever was ne cessary to render the Church more beneficial, as a whole, to the people of that country.—(Hear, hear.) He entreated them again to adhere strictly, and accord• ing to the letter, to the compact entered into with the Irish Parliament in the Act of Union.=(Cheers.) The Noble Earl said he was aware that that was the feeling of the people of this country, and he (the Duke of Wel lington) hoped that wolf.d be their opinion as long as there was a spark of honour in this country.—(Hear.) The Noble Duke concluded by again exhorting their Lordships not to allow any infringement of the Act of Union. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 18. Their Lordships met at Five o'Clock. The Bishop of BANGOR presented several peti tions against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. SLAVERY IX AMERICA. Lord DENMAN rose to bring under the con sideration of their Lordships a subject which ap peared to him to be of immense interest and importance. A few nights ago, his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham) had stated to their Lordships the fact, that in the state of Louisiana, in the rnited States, a capital conviction had been obtained against a person for promoting the escape of a slave. When this subject was brought under the notice of his Noble and Learned Friend, it was gene rally believed that the sentence would not be carried into effect. It was thought that the law having once been declared, denouncing the heaviest punishment against persons who should at tempt to rescue a slave, that the punishment in the particular case to which he had alluded would not be carried into effect. Unfortunately since that time a do cument had reached this country, bearing the marks of authenticity, from which it appeared that on the 25th of April a fellow-creature would undergo the sentence of death for having promoted the escape of a slave. Now nobody could be more sensible than he was of the duty which was enforced on all States of laying down rules for regulating the conduct of its depen dents, and he was aware how very jealous every State must be if any interference were to be at tempted by other powers with respect to the execution of the law such State had enacted. This country was remarkable as being one of the first to modify the sanguinary system of punishments which prevailed, and Mr. Livingstone drew up a code of laws for this purpose, which had been adopted in several countries on the Continent, and the result showed that this modification tended to diminish crime. He did not introduce this question as an individual one, but merely in the abstract, with the view of seeing how far the punish ment in this case was proportioned to the crime. He was aware that many persons were of opinion, that by giving expression to any sentiment of this kind, they were likely to increase the irritation which existed at the other side of the Atlantic, and render more difficult the carrying out of the negotiations between this country and America for the suppression of the slave-trade ; but from all that he had been able to learn= he consi dered that by the expression of those sentiments it was possible that some benefit might arise from it, and it was impossible for any injury to be produced. Indeed, he felt assured that in no civilised State could any individual be found who would be in duced to carry such a law into effect after such an expression of feeling. His object in bringing for ward this measure was the hope that the expression of the opinion of that House would meet the eyes of those who had the power to mitigate this sentence, and that while they carried out all the other laws of the country, they still would never allow this man to be put to death, for, by so doing, they would he throwing back the cause of civilisation, humanity, and Christianity, for centuries. He felt perfectly aware that it was not for the constituted and re sponsible authorities of this country to interfere in this matter ; still he thought that the expression of public opinion in this matter would be likely to pre vent the perpetration of this sentence. THREE-AND-A-HALF PER CENT. ANNUI TIES BILL. The Earl of RIPON, in rising to propose the se cond reading of the Three-and-a-Half per Cent. An nuities (1818) Bill, said he would detain their Lord ships but a very short time. The object which they had in view was to reduce the interest upon those annuities from three-and-a-half to three per cent. He congratulated the House on the fact that the state of the actual resources of the country enabled them to make this important change, and give the public the benefit of this great saving, without add ing to the permanent debt of the country. , Lord BROUGHAM said that the operation tes tified to all Europe the solidity of the resources of this country and its untouched credi. - -a reputa tion which they owed to their having religiously abstained on this side of the Atlantic—that was, the European English had abstathed—from doing anything that might have a tendency, or the shadow of a tendency, to impeach the right of the creditor to be paid by his debtor. Instead of affecting this reduction of interest, by giving a bolus, by which the capital of the public creditor would be increased, there had been a careful avoiding of making any in crease to the capital of the debt.—(Hear, hear.) Lord MONTEAGLE said the change was a very important one, and if he differed with the mode in which it had been carried into effect, it was as to details only. With the general mode in which the proposal had been carried out he entirely concurred. The measure was one of unexampled magnitude, af fecting an immense mass of capital, yet there had not been the slightest alarm caused by it, although there were no less than 81,000 holders of stock whose dividends were under 101. This was to be attributed to the great confidence they had in the resources of the country and the good faith of the Government. The Noble Earl had stated, that the arrangement was the more satisfactory, because it was not made by any undue tampering with the credit or currency of the country. It was effected on sound and rational principles. If they had a large surplus revenue with which they could effect the reduction, the operation could not be considered unjust, when there was a great reduction in the interest of money throughout the country. It was not a question of choice, but of para mount duty. The great reduction of interest on money was not altogether an unmixed bene fit. Therefore, when the general body of th e public suffered inconvenience from the 'lowering of interest they ought to be relieved from paying more than the reduced rate. The lowering of the value of money tended to increase speculation in the same ratio, and this had, on former occasions, been attended with great public inconvenience and mischief. There were some evils from which they were some what protected at present. Formerly the low rate of interest induced people to invest their capital in all kinds of foreign securities. But he believed the experience of what had happened within the last ten years tended very much to guard against the re currence of that evil. If they looked to what occurred in the old and the new world in that period, it would prove the importance of maintaining public credit. If the American States had main tained their credit, their territory would afford to us the best market for our products, and the advantage would be reciprocal. In 1824 there was a great abundance of money, which followed from the same causes that induced his Noble Friend to reduce the interest in 1822. That was followed by the subsequent over speculation and calamity of 1825 and 1826. He believed that there was still a tendency to such exaggerated speculation, and there might be some danger of it in our recently opened trade with China. He by no means attributed the measures of 1825 to the reduction of 1822, which was effected in a satisfactory manner, and he hoped that the present reduction, which effected a saving of 1,200,0001. ayear, would enable the Government to take off the income tax, at the time promised. He thought the Govern ment deserved thanks for the reductions which they had effected in the customs' duties, and he hoped they would take an opportunity of showing the advantages the country had derived by those measures. The re duction which had taken place since the peace in the actual burthen of the national debt was far beyond what had been foreseen by those writers who declared the burthen could not be reduced. A further reduction of four millions in the nomi Earl FITZ WILLIAM thought the Noble Duke had misapprehended him. He did not think that he had said anything from which it could be inferred that -he meant to overthrow the laws on which the Ref6rmation was founded. He had only said that the parochial funds should be applied to the payment of the Roman Catholic as well as the Protestant clergy, whether in the Barony of Ballysaxe, or any other Bally.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The speech of the Noble Duke reminded him of the speeches he had heard before about the Coronation Oath, and other fine things, which they were not allowed to touch. Ile put the speech of the Noble Duke in the same category ; and notwithstanding the Noble Duke's warning he thought the time would come, and many of their Lordships would live to see it, when with the Noble Duke himself, or some following the steps of the Duke in 1829—he had no more doubt of it than that he was at that moment standing in that House— an arrangement would be made for paying the Roman Catholic priests.—(Hear, hear.) So that the warning of the Noble Duke had not the slightest effect upon him.—(Hear.) The Bishop of EXETER tendered his sincerest thanks to the Noble. Earl (Fitzwilliam) for having made a speech which had drawn from the Noble Duke (Wel lington) near to him an address which entitled him to the gratitude of Protestant Christendom. Yet he must say that the subject itself had come upon him somewhat suddenly; fur in the usual notices of their proceedings it was stated simply that the Noble Earl had to present a petition on the subject of Ireland; and, not contented with this, he had rambled into the state of Ireland and of the Protestant Church there. The Noble Earl said he would have nothing to do with the spoliation of Church property ; he would not centralise it, but allow it to be spent where it was derived. And how spent ? It was, according to the Noble Lord, to be divided be tween the Roman Catholic priest and the Protestant rector, or rather the Protestant rector was to be stripped in order to endow the Roman Catholic priest. The Noble Earl seemed to treat the question of spoliation lightly, but spoliation might assume a very formidable character, and that'even to the senses of the Noble Earl himself. Suppose those Noble Lords who had been en riched by the hand of spoliation, years and years ago, were called upon to disgorge, in order to supply the wants of the poor in the very parishes where the spoliation had taken place, how would they like it ? In the Noble Earl (Fitzwilliam) him self ; in another Noble Earl near him (we believe the Earl of Besborough was alluded to), and in the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) also near him, he saw three Noble Lords who occupied a much larger portion of confiscated property, than did the Church itself in any of the three counties where their estates were situated. —(Laughter.) And those were the individuals who talked so loudly of justice, and so loosely of spoliation, and whose estates had been granted to them by the same sacred and inviolable law, that had awarded the pro perty to the Protestant Church ! lie admonished the Noble Earl to be careful of his sayings. But he would not only be his monitor—he wou!d venture, on this occa sion, to assume the character of prophet ; and in the spirit of prophecy, he would say that if spoliation was made on Church property, spoliation on private property would speedily follow. He tendered his humble and most heartfelt thanks to the Noble Duke, and he (the Right Rev. Prelate) believed that of all the services which that great man had rendered to his country, he had never conferred greater services on it, than he had that night.—(A laugh.) The petition was then ordered to lie on their Lord. ships" table. IRELAND. The Earl of FITZWILLIAii said, he had to pre sent to their Lordship a petition signed by the Chair man on behalf of what he understood to have been a very large meeting of the inhabitants of Glasgow, praying their Lordships to take into their consideration the points to which they alluded in the course of that petition. They founded their right of addressing their Lord ships on the state of that country, which they said exhibited a great number of features indicative of the bad policy which had been pursued with respect to that country. They urged that that policy was calculated to excite the utmost contempt for the existing laws and institutions and a grow ing hatred of all connection with Great Britain. They concluded the petition with one remarkable pro position on which he would say a few words. They stated that one principal grievance of which Ireland com plained was the Established Church, which was not only intolerant and exclusive in spirit and character, but op posed to the conviction of a great b o dy o f th e people, that it was used as a tool of political fac• tion, and subversive of general tranquillity. That such an establishment (and this was the important part of their proposition) did not admit of being amended, and that it must, to obtain the pacification of Ireland, be wholly abolished. Now, his opinion of this section of the petition was entirely different from that of the petitioners ; he was by no means of opinion that the Church of' England ought to be abo lished in Ireland ; on the contrary, he thought the Church of England in Ireland ought to be made more efficient for the only true purposes for which it might exist. He believed that England and the English Legislature had been guilty of a great crime in depriving the great mass of the people of Ireland of the means of spiritual instruction and worship. It had been a great crime in the English Legislature, that they had proscribed the Catholic priesthood, and deprived them of the means of properly celebrating religious service in that country. It was not, perhaps, the crime of the British Legislature alone, but of the great growing power of the British community, of which those in office were only the administrators. He was told that a proposition of supporting a Catholic clergy would be distasteful to the English people—the Catholics themselves would not agree to it—that it would excite the hostility of the Dissenters of England, and that of the Presbyterians of Scotland. Now a man met with many things distasteful to him between the hour of his birth and the hour of his death. A nation was not exempt from the fate of individuals. The Dissenters of England, the Presbyterians of Scotland, and the Irish Catholics might have to do many things distasteful to thom—even the Church of England itself might be brought to feel that there might be something even more disagreeable than being brought to give up some small portion of That which had been hitherto appropriated to that sect, of which the Right Rev. Pre lates were the ministers and ornaments. Notwithstand ing the rebuke he once received from a Right Rev. Pre late, he must persevere in saying that the Church of England was but a sect—the Catholic Church was an other—the Presbyterians of Scotland, the Independents of England, were all sects—and perhaps it might be a bitter pill for that sect which had hitherto been the dominant one, to feel that the time was not far distant when some portion of those resources which had been ap plied to itself alone, should be appropriated, in a certain degree, to the maintenance of other establishments. He thought it was quite chimerical to talk of making the Irish priesthood stipendiary. Such a project would never do. There would be rumours abroad which were likely to impress upon some minds such a belief, but he protested against making the Roman Catholic priesthood pensioners. If any thing was to be done, it was that _they should place the Protestant rector and the Roman Catholic priest upon the same grounds, and give both an equal interest in the peace and well-being of the coun try, and that the former should not assume airs to himself while the other must be conscious of his inferiority. What he wanted was to give a perfect equality to the two great sects, and he could see no great difficulty in accomplishing this. When it was remembered that during the last 150 years, the eccle siastical property of Ireland had been entirely confis cated, and taken away from those who held it originally, and applied to other purposes than its first purposes, there was no man in the House so visionary as to suppose that this exclusive Church of Ireland would ever convert the people of Ire land. Such a vision was foolish, but if it ever did present itself for a moment, he thought it must very soon be banished, by reflecting on the years which have rolled on, and the generations which have passed away, without" the slightest alteration in the state of the Catholic religion of Ireland. On - the, contrary-, at the present moment, the Catholics of Ireland had increased in numbers in a much greater ratio than did the Protestants. If any inference could be drawn from this—although he did not mean to do so—it would be that the existence of the Established Church in Ire land, so far from increasing Protestantism, had been" calculated to increase the othe r sect. He thought that justice to Ireland required th at t h ey should no anodf tahpeplywhtohleat property y stic t a o l p t i h orn e ogPe s e o rr l t e yta u k s oe e f andlre possessionabne Ireland, fi t of one sect, and that sect the most wealthy and most able to provide them selves with the ministrations of religion. Until there was something like a fair and equal distribution of the Church property, there could be no peace or happiness in that country. It might not be done this session, it might not be done ' the next, but they might depend upon it that the people of this country, even the most prejudiced of them, must make up their minds to do something on this subject. }ears was the Roman Catholic questi on i n anot h er form. ra c i e g r h ta t in pas w s is a e men still it must b e d one . away, or perh a p s h e m i g h t He vt e . ehnatir heard say wiseacres, who had said that at the time of the union the Roman Catholic question ought to have been settled one way or the other. Now, there were certain questions which could only be settled one way, and the Roman Catholic question was one of them ; and the present question also was one of the same sort. He defied them to maintain the Church of England in Ire land in its present state. He wished to see the Protest ant religion maintained in Ireland—he wished to see the Protestant parishes maintained—he wished to see the property of those parishes main• tained, and applied parochially, Ile would have nothing to do with spoliation, nor with taking property for minor communities, to throw it into a sort of hodge podge, to be dealt with by the executive Government. It was essential to the cause of liberty that these minor corporations should be maintained. That which he de sired to see done might be easily done, if men would but shake off their prejudices. Ile was no repealer, and he trusted that England and Scotland would not find an additional argument in favour of repeal by refusing to do justiee to Ireland. What he wished to see done Lord LILFORD presented a petition from the opera tive silk weavers of the township of Leigh, praying for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into their case. He would move for the appointment of the Committee on Friday. Lord FEVERSHAM presented a petition, but neither its object, nor the place whence it proceeded, could be heard in the gallery. Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter to Seven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 18. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Fours o'clock. Mr. BUSFEILD presented eleven petitions from places in Yorkshire, in favour of the Leeds and Brad ford Railway Bill. On the motion of Mr. R. HODGSON, the Mem bers for Berwick were added to the Committee on the North British Railway Bill. The Northern and Eastern Railway Extension Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com•• mitted. On the motion of Sir H. DOUGLAS, the Liver pool Fire Prevention Bill was read a second time. Mr. HAWES moved the second reading of the New 13ritish Iron Company. Sir C. DOUGLAS hoped the Hon. Gentleman would postpone the second reading of this Bill for a few days. After a short discussion, the Bill was read a second time. The Globe Insurance Company Bill was read a second tine. LOCAL COURTS. Colonel POWELL presented a petition from Wales In favour of the establishment of local courts. CORN-LAWS. Sir A. LEITH HAY presented a petition in favour of the corn-laws, and particularly against the sliding scale. TOBACCO DUTIES. Mr. M. GIBSON presented two petitions from the tobacco consumers of Manchester against the high duties on tobacco. COAL DUTIES. Mr. S. WORTLEY presented petitions from the West Riding of Yorkshire ; praying for the repeal of the export duties on coal. THE SUFFRAGE. Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from Hed dington, Northamptonshire, praying for a redress of grievances, aud an extension of the suffrage. PRISONS IN SCOTLAND. Sir GEORGE CLERK presented a petition from the Corporation of Musselburgh, praying for an amendment of the law relating to prison discipline in Scotland. REFORM.—THE RATE-PAYING CLAUSES. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from Islington, praying for the repeal of the rate-paying clauses in the Reform Act. The HoN. MEMBER presented a petition from the Tower Hamlets to the same effect. MERCHANT SEAMAN'S FUND. Air. HUME presented a petition from Montrose in favour of the Merchant Seamen's Fund Bill. The Hon. Member moved that the petition be referred to the Select Committee on the Bill.—Ordered. CORONERS' FEES. Mr. 13ANKES gave notice that he would to-morrow move for returns of the amount of fees paid to coroners in England and Wales in the years 1830-31-32, and 'B4O-41-42. JURISPRUDENCE IN SCOTLAND. Mr. 'WALLACE gave notice that instead of the motion for a Committee to inquire into the state of jurisprudence in Scotland, he would to-morrow move for the appointment of a Royal Commission. IRELAND—THE ARMY. Sir G. CLERK laid on the table numerous returns relating to the cost of the Commissariat, and the number of men and officers recently employed in Ireland, in consequence of the repeal agitation, In answer to a question from Mr. F. FRENCH, Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that Mr. Mathews had been appointed a provincial auditor of poor-law accounts, with a salary of 500/. a year. The ap pointment had been made under the last Act, the provisions of which it was the intention of the Go vernment to carry into effect. CHARITABLE BEQUESTS. Sir H. W. BARRON moved, according to notice, for "Returns made into the office of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests since 1830, specifying name of testator or donor, particular diocese or court. Number of bills filed, or actions or other suits instituted, in any Court, in each year, specifying the time of filing bills or com mencing actions. Number and particulars of cases prosecuted to conclusion, or settled by compromise ; the amount of money realised, and the taxed costs or expenses deducted. Number of cases where the Commissioners have interfered, and recovered or ad ministered any funds or property without cost, with the amount and expenses. Amount of sums voted by Parliament, in aid of the Board of Charity, since 1830. Number and names of the counsel for the board in each case, and amount of fees paid to counsel in each case an d every year. Number of cases in which suits instituted have not been prosecuted to a final decision or termination. Number of cases i n w hi c h th e B oar d o f Donations now administer th e f un d s; compensation by way of agency. S ums i n progress o f recover y. Sums in each case recovered and the expenses, compar tively. Sums now invested in the names of the Commissioners, and specifications of annuities and charities now under the consideration of the board. Specification of the number and particulars of the charitable donation and bequests which appear to have been devoted to Roman Catholic schools, in stitutions, or charities. The number of meetings in each year, for the last five year s, held by the Commis sioners ; also, the names of the Commissioners present at each meeting. The total number of Commissioners, their names and occupations. Return of all communica tions between the Commissioners and the Rev. Mr. Birmingham, of Ballysax e ; also his a nswer t o th e same respecting a l egacy l eft to endow a school at said place. Copy of that ;Dart of the will of the per son who left said legacy, as:. far as. relates to said be quest. Amount of all costs. incurred in all case 'since 1830. Names and particulars of cases, when pro- nal amount of the debt would occur within a period of sixteen years, which many of their Lord ships might expect to ive to see.--(Hear, hear.) The great blessings of peace had enabled us greatly to al leviate the actual annual pressure of the debt without injustice or inconvenience to any one, and considerable progress had been made in dimi nishing the nominal amount of the capital debt. If they calculated the value of the capital required at three per cent. they would get at the actual amount of reduction which would be made in the capital of the National Debt. The success of the experiment proved the extent of the credit of this country to an infinitely greater extent than if they had kept up an im mense amount of taxation for the purpose of keeping up a sinking fund. If they had kept up a sinking fund of 5,000,0001. or 6,000,0001. a year, they could not have operated such an amount of reduction with the same certainty. He had hoped as a matter of principle that a little additional notice would have been given to the holders of the stock. The Bill would not receive the Royal assent until Thursday, and the time for giving notice would expire on Saturday. This would ope rate as no practical grievance, he admitted, because it would not be for the interest of any of the holders to give the notice, but still he thought that on princi ple a longer period should have been allowed. He cordially supported the measure. The Earl of RIPON was glad to find that the Noble Lord's objections were confined to the de tails of the measure. With regard to the notice of the transaction, it had been a limited one ; he admitted that it might have been advisable to have given a more extended notice ; but when they dealt with large questions it was important that the transaction should be closed at as early a period as possible, and as no essential injury to the parties interested could ensue, he must confess" that as a matter of principle he did not feel that the Government were called upon to give longer notice. His Noble Friend had alluded to the guarantee. He did not object to the principle, that it was in general inconvenient for a Government to tie itself up in this manner for a 'series would not abolish the Church of England in IIela14; but would rather strengthen its foundations. He had stated explicitly his sentiments on the subject, and should conclude by presenting the petition. The Duke of WELLINGION thought that nothing could be more inconvenient than raising a discussion of this nature upon the mere presentation of a petition. The discussion into which the Noble Lord had entered embraced not only the state of the Protestant religion in Ireland, and the compact entered into for its maintenance, but it referred to the whole foundation of the Reformation in this country. The Noble Lord had proposed a scheme, of the particulars of which he was not exactly certain himself, neither was he certain as to the period which it could be carried into effect, nor of what might be its ultimate results ; but it went to the repeal of all those laws on which the Reformation in this country was founded, and he took the opportunity of warning thoir Lordships how they introduced measures of this sort into the House ; they went not only to do away with the religion of the country, as it was esta blished at the time of the Reformation, but to the sub- version of that system Of toleration which was founded at the Reformation, and in the maintenance of which every person of every religious persuasion was interested. He implored their Lordships' not to encourage those doctrines, which tended to destroy the laws upon which the Reformation was founded. He begged them to re collect that the Church of Ireland had existed over a period extending from 250 to near 300 years. It was maintained in that country for a century of constant rebellion rand massacres, ending in a struggle for the possession of the Crown. The Protestants maintained the country, and kept possession of their Church. That Church continued during another century, op posed and l a b our i ng under difficulties of all descriptions, but still maintained.—(Hear, hear.) At the period of the union, the Parliament which had the power to con sent to that union stipulated that the Protestant Church should be maintained.—(Hear, hear.) Their Lord ships entered into that compact, and they should never lose sight of that fact.—(Hear, hear.) He implored them not to be prevailed on to make any alteration in that compact so long as they wished to maintain their union. --(Hear, hear.) He thought they could not de part from the compact without a breach of faith as great as had been committed in other countries, referred to by a Noble Lord in the course of that evening.— (Hear, bear, and a laugh.) He entreated them to listen ceedings commenced, what progress made, and when terminated. Amount of the principal moneys in dis pute, and costs deducted in each case."—Ordered. VICTORIA PARK. In answer to a question from Sir W. CLAY as to the progress made in the arrangements for the forma tion of the Victoria Park, The Earl of LINCOLN said that the whole of the ground intended to be included in the park was not yet in the possession of the Government. The site of the park would occupy 262 acres : of these 179 were in the hands of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, and the remaining 83, which belonged to six proprietors, remained unpurchased, because the Commissioners were of opinion that the price demanded was an extravagant one. The usual steps, however, would be taken to ascer tain the value by a jury. They did not think it ad visable to commence the formation of the park till the entire of the land was in their hands. It would be in their possession before autumn, when the neces sary steps would be taken. In reply to a question from Sir V. BLAKE, who was quite inaudible in the gallery, Sir J. GRAHAM regretted that the Hon. Baronet had not given him some notice of the ques tion. He understood the document which the Hon. Baronet had read to have reference to that portion of the poor-law which caused the removal of poor Irish who had made settlements in parishes in England to Ireland, where they had no settlement, and complaining of such a state of things. All he could inform the Hon. Baronet on the subject at pre sent was, that it would be taken into consideration under the proposed New Poor-law Bill. Sir WALTER JAMES asked the Hon. Baronet whether he had taken pains to authenticate the state ment which he had read to the House. Sir V. BLAKE said he had received his informa tion from a gentleman of the greatest respectability, whom he had known for several years. FACTORIES BILL —COMMITTEE—AD - JOURNED DEBATE. On the motion that, the Order of the Day for going into Committee upon this Bill be read, Lord HOWICK presefited two petitions from places in Yorkshire (as we understood) against the Bill. The Order of the Day having been then read, The House went into Committee; Mr. GREENE in the Chair. On Lord ASHLEY'S amendment being read, Mr. WARBURTON said the question was one which involved the interests of the whole of the manufacturing prosperity. It had been stated to de putations which had waited upon the Government that they intended to adhere to the printed Bill in its main provisions, that Bill having been cir culated for a long time through the whole of the manufacturing districts ; and the deputations quitted the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham), with a firm belief that the Government meant firmly to resist the application for a Ten Hours' Bill. He trusted that the Government would strictly adhere to the assurance that this was not to be an open ques tion ; not that he considered the Government Bill objectionable, for it violated to a certain degree the principles which he advocated; but of two evils he was prepared to accept the least. In addres sing himself to this question he certainly felt consi derable difficulty. He hardly knew how to deal with the arguments of the Noble Lctrd who had introduced the amendment. If he were to address himself to the conclusion to which his arguments tended, it involved no less than suspending the whole of the labour per formed by women and children in this country. If on the contrary, he were to address himself merely to the verbal amendment, that was a question which they might argue upon its own merits ; but he did not see how he was to avoid addressing himself as well to the Noble Lord's premises as to his conclusions. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, in a considerable part of his speech, inferred the greater security of the labour of the manufacturing classes from the greater productiveness of that labour. Now, it was unqueitionable that the labour of the operative classes had been of late years in a marvellous degree productive, but they were not to infer, the severity of labour to which the improvement of machinery had been applied, from increased productiveness. Upon that ground they might argue that the labour of a man who was a slave, or one who followed the plough, was more severe than the one who scratched the ground. There could be no doubt that the closeness of rooms and the exhalations that took place in factories was most detrimental to health ; but it must be remembered that inconveniences, dangers, and difficulties were incidental to all sorts of arts and manufactures, It was not, however, upon this they were to arrive at any conclusion. There could be no doubt that serious physical consequences had arisen to young females and children in factories, but it must be recollected that they were subject to similar inconveniences in other walks of life.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord more particularly alluded to the opinion on this subject of medical men taken in 1839. That might be all very well ; but if he would refer to the opinion given by the medical actuary upon the evidence collected in 1835, he alluded to Dr. Mitchell, he would find a very dif ferent statement made. That Learned Gentleman stated that he saw no grounds for warranting the sup position that factory labour in any material degree dif fered from its effects on the human frame to any other kind of labour, &c., facts that all the investigations that had taken place showed that the laudatory and condem natory assertions that had been made were alike unfounded. Among other allegations of the Noble Lord was one, that the health of the females was most seriously injured by this species of employment ; but this had also been met by the testimony of Dr. Mitchell, and other medical gentlemen, mem bers of the Commission of 1833-34. Evidence wns given before that Committee that the allegation was altogether without foundation. They really must not take it for granted, that the condition of the persons employed in factories was so desperate as the Noble Lord would have them to believe. They bad agents employed by the Government, Commissioners of the Poor-law and Sub- CommissionerN making inquiries most deeply and anxiously into all these matters. Under such advice and agency, at a period beginning with the year 1833, great exertions were officially made to induce the sur plus agricultUral population, for whom work could not be found in their own districts, to migrate to where the demand for labour was greater and the remuneration for it far higher: These Commissioners, in their first Report, stated the rate of wages in the manu• facturing districts for a family including three or four members, as at least double what a family of the same description could earn in the agricultural counties. Well, a migration took place, in the first year he had referred to, to a very considerable extent. Dr. Kay, had described in his report the result of such , emigration both to the parishes from which it took place, and to the emigrants and their families, as of the most happy and beneficial character. The same went on for a series of three or four years till the year 1837, which had been marked as the commencement of that stagnation of trade and bitter distress of which the House and the country had had but too strong evidence. The lion. Gentleman then referred to a statement made by Sir H. Verney, which showed that the condition of the manufacturing labourers was far better than that of the agricultural labourers. Some of the latter, who went to Wolverhampton and other places, obtained three times more wages than they did at home ; and their improved condition induced others to follow their example. The lion. Gen tleman referred to a statement made by the lion. Mem ber for Durham, which showed that the average weekly earnings of families who emigrated under the superin dence of the Poor-law Commissioners themselves, were 395. 4d. in 1836 ; 345. ld. in the following year, and 395. 41d. in the year after. These farts proved that the condition of the manufacturing labourer was far better than that of the agricultural labourers. The Noble Lord opposite had referred to the moral con dition of the manufacturing classes. Now he (Mr. War burton) thought that, considering how those people were congregated together, the state of morality among them was not inferior to other classes similarly situated ; and he thought if the same inquiry and same tests were ap plied to the higher classes, as were in the case of the manufacturing classes, they would not find the for mer so vastly superior in a moral point of view. Now the improvidence and extravagance attributed in this case was not by any means peculiar to those who congregated in factories ; they extended equally to the handloom weavers. The Rev. Mr. Brian, speaking of the Spitalfields' weavers,observed that from the domestic habits of the people, and from their manufactures being carried on entirely in their own homes, it might be expected that they would present a perfect example to other classes ; but, on the contrary, from the variable nature of the demand, depending, as it did, on fluctuations in the state of commerce, and in the caprices of fashion, the greatest improvidence and extra vagance prevailed among the inhabitants of the cottages in that part of London in which silk manufacture was carried on. Let them not suppose, therefore, that extravagance and profligacy belonged exclusively to factories. The Report respecting the hand-loom weavers spoke of the insalubrity of the dwellings in the parish of St. John's. If they were to deal with this evil at all, they must deal with it universally ; it would be necessary to lay the axe to the root of the tree. Were they prepared, upon such premises as those ad vanced by the Noble Lord, to arrive at the same conclu sion as the Noble Lord ? Were they prepared, upon such arguments, to agree to a modification of the rules and regulations respecting labour, which now prevailed in this country ? From the arguments which had been advanced by the Noble Lord, he (Mr. Warburton) was not prepared to agree to this. Nobody could dispute what the result of the amendment of the Noble Lord, if carried, would be. Everybody must admit that if they limited to ten hours the labour of women and children, they must also limit to ten hours the labour of the men. He did not think there was any difference of opinion upon this point. He was sure the Noble Lord had the most humane feel ing in endeavouring to restrict the hours of labour in factories to ten hours. Would it not, however, be well to look to the arguments of the labourers themselves ? They stated that limiting the hours of labour would tend to increase wages, that they would get more wages for less toil. He admitted that no person would suffer much if they were in the state they were in at the close of the war in 1641, when they had no foreign competi tors, but it was different when they had to compete ojl with the wl ole civilised world. Wl'ee t he y sidered the • hor period in which a ma" j g ht interest might be raised, and when it e i _,, su eio raised in any et u try to which they chose to es: premium as tl e diminution of the manufactrido, pital of the cm ntr ehe was inclined to agree ] ut i „. , with those eho s t,id that they ran a very gr e _ a e f tbt The amount ( f cost m manufactured at the ciloroto war by this country was 260,000,0 W lbs. ; _Tf OO O manufactured by France, in 1840, was 130,en 53 3 The manufecturers who were examined T he ' its' 1834 held different opinions with regard to loviedie' tion of labour. They stated that the *O; effect woul.d be a rise in price. . 4 worth was examined, and stated that •'''' t oter in price would add to the profit of the foreittos facturer, but not to that of the home one. theA oil vain to suppose that if they limited ,eir of labour, foreign countries would follow 1 .. ,P, d the ample. They had . abolished slaver/ ;;; d slave trade, and yet the country tha t th. freest institutions in the world had retained e i the it would be in the present instance, if they les sbo e ver ego numberof hours of labour for the manufacture re iee , ,bi e count Pies would be the only parties that would beitr.a,ti The large number of 343,000 eersons s by manufactures in Lancashire alone, 01 °1 ' a source of employment was opened th ere e , agricultural population. It appeared from t" ne ce,!: of the Poor-law Commissioners, that in the number of those who migrated into the_ j oe under the superintendence of only one of the Car l e3O ers amounted to 10,000. That was in they ..7 0 the It was said that if they put dl ps , present system there would be much • vor tio , He thought that in a much larger P g re t bef there would be less virtue. It must be 60 1 ' o r minished the number of those who we re b dsiV above the necessity of supporting themselves foriol labour, if by introducing distress among th e uro her; manufacturing counties, they diminished th e n o her" those who lived in affluence, and supported e n . s p r ioril domestics. How would they maintain their seeieses, if they altered their system ? They had Ne w ,. d oss' Western and Southern Australia, making fres° a te o upon them. How were their commercial glr e 5 00 and the vast expenditure which these distant p0. ,5 L00' occasioned, to be sustained, except by inaintaintneef t he!! nufacturing prosperity ? The declared l'al ue o poll exports of woven fabrics amounted in 1840 to eo le ofel,ooo,oooesterling.WasitnotbytheempleY ln i e .rl4 this afforded that they were enabled to su P N r U t b t ile J ntilipe!f popnlation, and to bear the b u rden of th e p If they discouraged manuf ac tures, other e° in t ce •t would adopt means to attain their supr-elou the civilised world. If they l os t their e tr t hes,', greatness how would their neighbours tr eat id If France, in the course of thirty years , cenof tit tiply six or seven fold the amount in tY exported fabrics, would they not be beart ku cott elA t own ports by the superior navy of that bit e Contracts had been entered into and lease s tiote taken, and the Government ought to take ca re esP fl : steps they took would not place the persons wil e O Pr tered into these contracts and leases in adisadoo to t 4 Position. He (Mr. W.) had his eyes fully er, 4 40 1 . alternative to which the Noble Lord (Howic u bsee they would ultimately be reduced, of not itter,el(o,o a Ten Hours' Bill, but in every raanufacturine.,,e'oei district local boards of trade to make a rranger io e 0 tween masters and men. It had been said in `4 o iirie, this question-that they should refrain from topics that were calculated to excite feel in g ° , 11 '1 country. He did not think it their duty to de s ,„ferej were the circumstances which affected the cit"deee; the working classes, and what remedies collid : " u t hec ° it for their distress was an important elemen t e'llecie) o sideration of this subject. The Hand -loom o ld to Commission stated the effect of the corn-le vis i t sg to raise the price of corn 20 per cent., and a ssu eo asseo half of the wages of the operatives went for thews t o t tion of corn, they operated as a tax on his amount of 10 per cent. The consequence we; b i s exertion was required from the o perative an d „ife ° t oe Were it not for those laws the wife could b . o f attention to her domestic duties-e o4l % l de - e things complained of by the Noble e" i ges ee l the operative could devote more of hia, no t be „pt purchase of clothing, and his children riee% - e itaalie at so early an age to work. One of the recerah; ber i ot made by this Commission was carried out, epee of jesty's present Government, namely the reat! c o ese e r duty on timber. He was an advocate of t h r ' s t he ear because it would 'improve the habitations e''. o ON ° , classes. Other questions which the Commuis al oe reie tie t mended, namely, the improvement of our WM o f r oi lations with America, the Brazils, Germany' dila te d• countries, so as to admit of the most advantagtehese4oo for our manufacture in our various markets' ie d to bl 5 P. tions, amounting to about six were unettel w ,ore* Government, with the exception of one 111 7 4 .01 e 'l l ,er A measure so impolitic as that which the ', be fu r t ot had recommended, would absolve them from,' Do ra p o necessity which was threatened by the Ne bje ee 01$1 ;t 1 Member for Sunderland of putting the leh i e le th r e et t o rl of the details between the operatives and --(P re to under the management of lo ca l b oar ds of trae e ,' dere Lord HOWICK said his Hon. Friend mi al what he bad said. „ 5;0 0 ' e T ,i„hi e Mr. BECKETT was surp r i se d a t the yese-shis ere had taken place upon the amendment e' be ao . l ti ot Friend, for that dis cuss i on appeare d t o Oil, f i que', o o discussion respecting p ro fit an d l os s. e'4'- n, o t s;oli they had to consid er was , w h et h er the pr e ' e u it 5 ,4 0 was one of cruelty an d h ar d s hip or not? his turn out not to be so, then the amendment The e, Friend would of 'course fall to the g roune; 'eje savers to the statements of his Noble Frienu„ , 11° L iol that the agricult ura l l a b ourers an d o thers w e ' ee - elae' tn off as the m anu f ac t ur i ng operat i ves . NeT t not ;e? be urged as a reason w h y t h at H ous e out; 2 r to ev o e terfere in a case wh ere it p ossesse d the I P ewe of t be f th e —(Hear, hear.) He knew th a t a large Dol o ur °p' nufacturers, owners of machinery, were in __ t ge n ' esr amendment of his Noble Friend. 'The BlV b eor.V o 4o ronet (Sir James Graham) said that the I l l e ° it ployed in manufactures generally lasted 5 rietorvto er i, years, and therefore it required a certain remuneration for the capital invested in thet_ ho at " t ie and consequently to reduce the period of P i ;. o 3. t i ° , oo ll hours a day, would greatly diminish the r e ....'dee Aft owners of the machinery, and a g reat in.l" - 1 0 / be done. Why, he (Mr. Beckett) would ap e ao the most sanguine manufacturer in this colle'yere?l any machinery employed in manufactures worked for twelve hours a day for s' % 't Why, no manufacturer ever expected sti „asd e `: lo lic Machinery was continually being new inventions. This argument of the n'e t he V oi d able Baronet, therefore, completely fell t ° : las of f t oe' He (Mr. Beckett) hid taken the 0P in ' 1 , 47 ,4 °` . 1,01 practical men on the subject, and the 0 7, 0 10 with whom he had consulted deprecated a .7, ee perali Bill.—(Hear, hear.) M anu f a ct u rers, drop' a th e operatives whom he had conversed witlt and _„,in favour of shortening the hours of lab our, . 0 °PTO ° town of Barnsley he had ascertained thatbe'lieveetricts worked more than ten h o urs a day. Il e •ag Ol e : . the labouring populati on i n the manufacturdeolie:o would ever remain open to the schemes (;) t he Vol'', and agitation while the present duration ce to a t of ; labour continued. While he was opposedood oat, hours'Bill, he would freely admit that he w ele to o se port a proposition for a Bill of ten hours. woe be such a change wo u ld b e t oo su dden. He w ile el s ci t" a gradual alteration, and for the prese ni „el be h rj ; content with an eleven hours' Bill. He Wc 'r see such a Bill passed for a period of thre e ° w ig bo or',., and by that time they would be enabled tn r ; o f l a te t it '', practicability of further curtailing the iv)u t ° D ' r d Sir GEORGE GREY felt a nxious _ li r e fie e reasons why he con cur r e d with the Nu b ' co , pror t had moved the amendment which ha d ,dge ° r est/ In doing so, h e cou ld no t b u t acknow, „ Sec, ,er e observations of the Right Hon. Baronet bound Of t for the Home Department, in introducing hiooodd the entitled to the greatest weight. He wil fi s ddres s ,i e to that the arguments which had been 7 se eP" -- illOt House by the Hon. Member for Kendal tiler ag, a ris t t,t l (Sir G. Grey) to have been directed T o o n, • gislative interference on the subject o r° limited, and, as he thought, reasonahlieiP Nobl e „ r epe r 4 4 had been submitted to the House s a ted, t r b e They had been warned, and he n 03 0 , e i t te ir i' warned, not to do anything whic e h ne r .g ! e_s.,. ae li cr e lif er t e li ti c of curtailing our manufacturing the commercial prosperity of the cotteu- e ' o t, e r „ r one tened in vain for any shadow of arge ra to slightest proof, that the change which r res P e er 0 11 0 4 was likely to involve our commerci:e• h a djchjil would ask whether any argunient,, r iod,f t ee i p , against the amendment of his Noble -e„t• 10 of r e not equally appli ca bl e to the in:lee'r „i s lst a er e then before the H ous e. The princie le ° t he D e . T i es terference had been long ago decided bl,rll lol o l k t he When that qUestion was decided Oir: i;eo on b° presented to the Hon. Member It'L e ithe' t het ,r, 'oils eel O' Warburton) of pressing his ohie etl h e lo on hoe t hat second reading of the Bill, or upon te arse , re , • tO 0 : Speaker do leave the Chair. No sue ht, tliel'oef'Pros was taken. H e (Si r G. Grey) thong 4 it w as „.tiot t „ tar in the present s t a t e o f the proceedl o - iy etti„,„Jer : t o f j raise that ge nera l ques tion. Th e ' , e l ter e :i ee how far ought their interference W the 1 boilfro op could it be safely carried, a nd he far fitted it o ct et ' to the operatives required and pero wer e to started to carried out, and at what point they v erw,-.0 1 With regard to the subject of interter, the te4 hie him that between the Noble Earl anti 1`_:' 10 00,0 there was not the slightest difference.the GoSe did not ask the House to go beyond Bill. to 1;1 0 0 , comprehending other classes ie th is ca lled up o' question upon which they were_ , s „i n ion the lot up their minds and to pronounce au i - j, '" tri een e ' b i lo c o; the question whether young persons s ho 13 and 18, and women of every e eer t he e: e l os e t be during twelve hours a day, exclusie.eries, c ols 0 010 , sumed in going to and from the f o. °4-I" thei r ° deci de the period to be consumed durine i _„ d to „ ou rs. t er ) factory. The question the House o .e' twe iee be at whether the period should be ten e_ e s hoe one side it was proposed that the o t t lw her s ide e v t . hours ; and the proposition on the the c ase bee r ' 0 1 it should be twelve hours, w hich, in ire la_,, to rt 0 00 e •sce , ~,c no one could doubt was very thought that the Report of tits deserving of every attention an... } ; gill ` their for ml, l e ce,l4 , subject, and they gave it as person, and in the case of fera tl a ian 3' fiftee ie f°r [ twelve hours' work was more than ene le ue` t he i r of being absent for more was destructive of domestic happines s et to de' oc i te must necessarily tend to the total n w e e ie_ they coFacustoidryeritAtei-0.0700 .oto7g milies. He would ask the House l'orne v e l tu that this excessive labour was neees';' aooo l: oe li co ' 0 , mercial prosperity of the country wo uld Kt' let be ec °e' t tion with other measures which 0 , 11 , red t oe the physical and moral condition. this _e et o he or ee o sidered that such a provision as i r e cou ld . 1 15 ,i0, , ' 0 01. ficial result. He thought:from most f oci the great mass of the opeFatives _lse;,„_;„od see the propositions of his Noble thltijuvandtheetie:ro7.ll4:lo:B.. eni tl tthar t ee t .waio e se: s :ax t er. questi on st: o ri I ' 3l earni ng it. He to it ot 41 e 0 O e e . s n g u e h b a ° e h t p toh n n t igo fet uhs hi fi fe dg t t a c e c her t otoll:4:4l: ri ttl e oec s ibu t ttl o heola.fe.w t ti i w y ntf e i( .I*l 't of his " from J. GI sti,t,t4oll,4;7 ` giertedli w .hKetrah oo si.r.aite l ttn? l , e nlnia n Anniogte t trrtli(l Pted, and hl :€Vslative employ! „,'Y interfere] _ class o tones no c more th yther provis r'uur of pen 'a 183; B • wee half - past five coarse of legi a 7 t :he year 1 ret u l _rt!ning th - omit o f; al,Graham) has !Y thought ts li ° 'ng so Mr. eut'whi h h t h th ataxt c time t ta gh the fe 4'lg a dis' „ wishes it I between a'4l"T"h':l her 3 °3l lerri eddl ' l 'ttet.' 11°111 Ivojfangtuwe3aeetedghat the The ddehs b Yttoeteu r ' I°stlc c (( .Lle a s tr ace 'Which M ,erillnent • 11,,83i0tt andPvi. *l4. P. Thom 411, int ] e( 4 ro( ti 't of 1833. sta tute whi c h : 10 ve and tit ther e t hou h a 3 a th e g °PP , 4, 4 t Intjorit 3 Q it wt fßill. ,;11. Taunton that children rut .eul :I hours. d labour:cs more ethf. ri a eso t ys h n: I °_ars to worl, h6ll ed u • ' i ght P this Lf be ...,or e forcibly t o ls3 ting the 4 1 'd°n, vale kl has not hr for W o l v } ars of lab or te e same rem fled th_ ours °I 'Propositi o it the would g 4 bow as a d e l i fo llil d to exe leadedon s ea its • went on ' o , e 6.x thet ' t he of course ; i h u humanity tt . t !lanity. tv..lority in to :, 94 to 62, Iriority witl Ll' B. Haw e oouchere, t;:+ ilg on thu of the te afe itrt hear 2 e14 1, but th 'ears, had bra in all the been an t hither to th e t i t r for Dorsi ktB of Mr. sad ur was t 1:10 evidenct th e r aer. He th question at a t tng en -hot 1,47 (retire: k le alo. have tl ti t , w as aware uri t • k ut st L deck Z is e lf that I iast the bl e Lord p r "t Ridif ow°Position ow llers of hnen Were 'l OOl in it 4 !tie piece; kit r custom th tter of con ,;; . ( kie . _ who we ei;". l4 ufaeture tl ie ltle rY, in ; ota ater Would manni d eit l e tY-nine tr' r e to r til lti e tn * a B perfe tself masts rans quest tit ; ten hour t o. interest s for Tk the lion. th e humai Of w elfare 0 aor tae i t, Petiti on . W hich he (Si, s tould an 114) : 4 . rail: 41 4 1 914 mac G en 4 twelve ; 8 _ tle tna a 2 n I rapt' which be 4, and im to Placed t he ca ?11 e ...4: - osit th, to ~he of si c ta r ,, h e only n t tiC s r if the 414 Sad that itti h t " mar tr eir e it tlsfer UII (0 ft their The ▪ labour )(te te louse, ~loage a rY for ge wouli 1144 o er ot : atN an( t i tti l th e P Mur es, I by 25 • th eni e d °bser , What would:th u , r ( 1 ;i1 11 ' ll 11 4•ht t ' 1 1:: 1 etople it - t Zge 93/ goal Is B tate of b 0,9 ti 4 :itr.) 1 1 ,/: t h e discu s Zi l :l o j:t i rn i ra irri en . i v. 04 it( it tva3 the c a p :very G „, • I lth NO Pas • wi t h t,e fri sta l ti etr "ear. hid,) with°, h e — to shori 01 1 th e t oe lh he h it 4 ltr e wo " 4s, r , s s of th, ease toesW en st h 2 tees fo ea th e at t er, whi 'lhr o t'und. the r "%b th e ban ras al trad e e r of Poc, — r the pl tO I° 4 of