The Sun. — London, England, 1839-07-26 00:00:00

GENERA Mr. O'Cossca then moved, that inasmuch as the sittings in the Convention had already been expensive to many of the constituencies, a portion of the rent now in hand be applied in poymect of the expenses of those De legates who we to sit in the Provisional Council. Mr. SMART seconded the motion, which, after a long discussion was agreed to. Another resolution, moved by Mr. O'CoNNort, seconded by Mr. NEESOM, was agreed t 4), to the effect that the De legates who were to proceed into the country should be paid not only the expenses of their transmission to the places allotted them, but that their expenses be paid whilst they are engaged in the performance of their duty. On the motion of „Mr. PITKEITHLEY, Mr. O'Connorwas appointed ono of the treasurers, in the room of Mr. Craig. Oa the motion of Mr. SKEFFINOTON, a Finance Ccrn reitteo of three wO 3 appointed to arrange with the Dele gates with refire::ce to their expemes. Mr..O'CoNNos moved that the address drawn up by Dr. M‘Douali be printed in The Sun. Mr. NEESOM seconded the motion, which as agreed to. The Convention then adjourned until ten o'clock to morrow. METROPOLITAN POLITICAL SWIM A R Y. --...„—____ The Courier of last eveeing, speaking of the Penny i 1 Postage Bill, says__" Prom the few words that fell from the Duke of Richmond on Tuesday night, we do not an .' ticipate any very serious daoger to the Bill in the Upper House. Tie Tory party begin to see that S:r Robert Peel made a false move by resisting this concession to the people, and d es p erate as t i le f act i on are, they will pati4e I before they expose themselves to that hurricane of publi c I 1 execration, whi c h, b y t h roe i ng out this Bill, they would I inevitably d raw d own upon themselves. " rbe Globe observes with reference to Lord Nugent's Address to the Aylesbury electGrs :-.-.' Lord Nugent has damaged his reputation as a Reformer, we feer beyond re pair. Henceforth he will be regarded with suspicion by ' whatever constituency he may aedress. We care not for the common-place cant about ' motives.' We trouble not ourselves to ascertain what is .always doubtful— whether certain cerr!uct be the result of fully or of some , thing worse —whether the head or the heart be in fault. I In the supposed alternative the individual is either unfit I or unworthy to be entrusted with the public interests. and the sooner and more plainly he is told so the better for himself and the public." The Standard thus alludes to Lord John Russell's pro posed -Local Police Bill :—lii principle it seems to be unobjectionable. It professes to invest the Magistrates of counties at quarter sessions with power to appoint a number of constables to be crganised as 'a police force for their counties or districts of counties, as the ~ occasion may vein to requi re ; l eav i ng t h em at perfect i+ liberty, however, to avail themselves of the power or not according to their discretion. With the confidence we repose in the good reuse, patriotism, and respect for liberty of the country gentlemen of England, we can have no fear that this power will be made an ill use of, and the reservation of the power to the Magistrates,instead of bestowing it upon Home Office Commissioners, pre• serves unimpaired the superintending authority of the Court of Queen's Bench, a Court which has, since the revolution, proved a far more effectual guarantee of the liber ties of the people, than the House of Commons in its noisiest paroxysms of patriotism." Lady Charlotte Jane Dundas, the new Lady of j the Bedchamber to her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent, in the room of the late Lady Flora Haztings, is the youngest and only unmarried sister of the present Earl of I youngest and only unmarried sister of tile pres'nt Earl of I Zetland, and grand-daughter of William third Earl Fitz- William. Her Ladyship has been officially presented to her Mjesty, at Buckingham Palace, on her appointment. i THE BITER Liti.--One day lately, a sturdy beggar woman called at a farm house in So - athallan, and seeing only a young girl, she asked where her mother was? "At Dunulane," was the reply, " selling her but ter." She then asked Ler where her father was. "In the moss, carting peats." " And so there is nobody but you at home; you mu3t, rive me," said she, " a grad pickle meal." The girl replied there was but little in the house, 1 a nd nh. that was at, th e b ottom of a deep girnel beyond her rThe. wife not liking to be put off in this way, said she svou'd 'Lift it herself, and when in the act; the girl ittopped up her heels end thr ew h er i nto the gimel, telli ng her, 'after securing the cover, to lie there till she brought 1 her father from the moss,— Stirting Observer. GREAT NORTH BRITISH RAILWAY.—O n i Monday a numerous and highly respectable meeting was held in the Royal Hotel, Prince's -street, fur the purpose • of considering certain resolutions relative to the Great Northe'rn British Railway, which were severally adopted. „A gre a t num b er of gentlemen were present.—Edinburgh Advertiser. MR. POWELL, TILE CHARTIST.—OiI Thurs day last, at the M • , ntgomeryshir e Assizes, sentence on Mr. Powell, of Welchpool, f..r having use,' seditious word-e I was passed in the following, terms. It cannot be object. d to the sentence that it is too lenient :—" Thomas Powell, you are now to receive the sentence of this Court for se6- itious language uttered by you at a public meeting at New_l town. The words are these—(here his Lordship read them.) Evidence hats been given as to the very words by one witness, and by others as to their general tenor. Your witnesses said that you merely recommended moral force. That :vas the question for the Jiry, and they have found you guilty. I have no doubt of' the meaning of your words : i it is plai n th a t y ou called or. them to h ave recourse to force. Now to advise forcible means to obtain any public object of' right is an act of sedition. The Jury have recom.mend 'd you to mi,rey on the ground of your previous good character; and it must be in thei r reco ll ect i on and aline that on the occasion of the riot at Llsnidloes, you did protect the police officers Armishaw and Banks. I t was a very proper act, and shows that you had the power and , the w illi ngness to check the violence of the mob ; b ut 1 persopersons wh o p u t th emseives f orwar d as l ea d ers, an d pro- • ns to teach people thkir rights, often forget that the i machine which they put in motion is very difficult t o chock; and though I cannot suppose that you meant to address the pecpl e to proceed to direct acts of violence. yet the recent proceedings at Llanidloe s and elsewhere. clearly show what are the effects of such language. Notwithstanding this, I am ready to attend to the reeom dations of the jury ; b ut a light punishment would be inis chieYous. ISh ill VI, reforepass what I conceive to be a just sentence, which is, that you be imprisoned in Mont gomery gaol fer the term of 12 months, and at the expiration of that period that you do . find sureties te, keep the peace years, Yourself in 4001 and two sureties are fo o nnd a ." . sureties of 20/. ech, and b e f urther imprisoned until sue', THE APPROACHING TOURNAMENT. —The arrangements of Eglintnun Castle, to r the accommodation o f the public, hav e not been so far fixed as ni admit or announcement, though these, we hav e no doubt, will b e such as will secure a sight of the novel spec-Ade to .be thousands who may be expect e d to assemble frown quarters. Irvine, and are already a t a premium in I ne, and we fear, when the time arriv -s, accommodation for man and beast will be but scanty ; since, independent of the Knights and' fheir "tails.' e n d a Yost as,ernbla e - ,0 o f nobility and g , _ntry from eeindo Du n, numerous as parties from Edinburgh. Ginsgovv, Stirling,fr , and, indeed, a ll the neighb our i ng shi re s, are expecting to attend. if In deed, we thi n k we are sa f e in anti c ip at i ng that ~ii thing s go smcothlv, the approaching revival of the cla, g of chivalry will CIUIC the piewure grounds at Eglintoun to be occupied by the gr:atest "gathering" ever seen in Ayrshire Fortunetely that part of the Glasgow and Ayr shire Railway b eween Ayr and Irvine will then be open, which, by affording a qu i c k an d c h eap t rans it to I rvine, will be a vast convenierc e to the people of this neighbour hood, and to all coming from the South.— Greenock Ad vertiser. The Convention met yesterday at the usual hour ; Mr. JAMES TAYLOR in the Chair. A letter was read, dated Mauchline, Ay rs hi re . J u l y 22, stating that a public meeting h a d b een held at Kilmer mock in consequence of the res i gnat i on of the " coward Craig," and that Mr. M'Rae h a d b een e l ected in his place. Mr. O'CoNNott said th a t, notw i t h standing the boast of the Government P ress , t h at the Convention had be come alarmed at its own weakness, he was happy to be the means of bringi ng f orward a communication which had unanimously been agreed to by the Convention, which wanald prove the cement of any division which might have l been supposed to distract them. Government had no power but in the weakness of the Convention ; the Conven -1 tion had no defence but in their own bravery and deep determination to die freemen rather than live slaves. i If the Convention from the ii ginning had taken the same opportunity of adjustier, its measures, they wou ld h ave stood forward as t h e terror o f ; but even yet it was not too late. The fovmer dissensions which had prevailed had only given the Convention greater strength, and he trusted that as they had led the people on to the chargP, they would be fin st to storm the breach if necessary. He concluded by mov ing, " That the Convention having provisionally appointed the 12th of August as the day tor a general cessation from labour, it becomes necessary to appoint a Council. which Council shall sit in London, and whose duty shall be to receive evidence from those Delegates who shall forth with return to their respective constitueixies, and also from the country at large, with a view of taking the most efficient means for giving effect to such plan as the majo rity of the workinf , classes shell decide upon." Mr. NERSOU seconded the resolution. Mr. WoormousE supported it. Dr. FLETCHER, in consequence of what had passed in the Convention yesterday, and the unanimity which now prevailed, withdrew the motion of which he had given notice, as the address about to lac moved entirely met his view. Dr. M‘Douatt, congratulated the Convention on the unanimity which Fr..3vailcd, and remask,d that it was a sin gular coincidence that the 12th of August, the day fixed on for the cessation of lsbour amongst the working classes, was the day on which the aristocratic classes proceeded to the moors for their enjoyment al:o.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. BRONTERRE O'BRIEN supported the resolution in a very violent speech, expressing his hope that, for every working man who might be slaughtered by the middle classes and the aristocracy, ten of their enemies might suffer. The resolution was also supported by Mr. Skeffington, Mr. Wolstenholine, Mr. Duncan, Mr. Lowry, Mr. Burns, Mr. Osborne, Mr. Deegan, Mr. Richards, and agreed to unanimously (for which see our advertising columns). Dr. M‘DocALL then read an address, which had been submitted by him to the Committee yesterday, and agreed to unanimously. Mr. FEARGUS O'CoNNOR moved the adoption of the address, which was seconded by Mr. O'Brien, and carried unanimously. Mr. O'CoNN.-3a moved that a Council of sever, persons be appointed to remain in London to perform such duties as the working classes may decide upon. Dr. M - DotiALL seconded the motion. Mr. DEEGAN moved as an amendment, seconded by Mr. WARREN, that the CoUncil consist of five members. The original motion was agreed to. A ballot then took place, when the following members were appointed the Council:—Messrs. O'Brien, Dr. Fletcher, Carpenter, Lowrey, O'Connor, Smart, and Burns. U.? NTION. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Jczr 25. The LCRD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at Five o'Clock. The Timber Ships Bill passed through a Committee. The Assessed Taxes Composition Bill passed through a Committee. The Bishop of E X E TE R presented a variety of petitions against Hindoo idolatry ; also a number of petitions against the Church Discipline Bill. He itsd in all presented similar petitions on this subject from 22 dioceses, and there had not be ore preserved on the other side. The Right Rev. Prelate then presented several petitions against renewing the Powers of the Poor-law Commissioners for another year. He should not be in the House when the Bill on this subject was brought to their Lordships, but if he were, he should give his cordial support to those Noble Lords who should oppose the renewal of the Bill. And he should do so principally on ac count of the bastardy clause. He felt perfectly per suaded that ii , fanticide had been greatly and most distiess inely increased by this clause. He also objected exceed ingly to sep , rating husbands and wives by the Poor-law Guardians in poor-houses. The workhouses were like, and were intentionally made to look like, prisons. One of the under Poor-law Commissioners had reported that this had a salutary effect, which was deeply to be regretted. Then, again, the poor were de prived, in a great degree, of spiritual assistance on the Sabbath. He had heard from high authority that one of the causes of the disturbances at Birmingham arose from a dissatisfaction' wilt the Poor-laws. Whether that was so or not, this was clear, that if it were so the source of dissatisfaction ought to be scurried as speedily as pos sible. The R;ght Rev. PRELATE wished to know from the Noble Viscount if it would be convenient for him to name Monday next for the second reading of the Ecclesiastical Preferments Bill, which had now been on their Lordships' table for a week. Lord MELBOURNE had no objection to say that he should move the second reading on Monday. The Marquis of DO WNSIIIR E called the attention of the HouAe to what be considered to be a subject well deserving of notice. It appeared from a newspaper he had in his hand, that the ass - z'_s for the county of Longflrd, took place on the 13th of th s mcnth. The asßize going Judge was the Lord Cbie•f justice of the Common Pleas of Ireland. It appeared from the speech of the Learned Judge on that occasion that he found prisoners had be , n detained in gaol there from October 1838, and, according to all the information he could get, merely because a Mr. Barnes, a Stipendiary Magistrate, had thought fit to commit them as h.. said, for re-examination. This was greatly against the liberty of the subject. The Learned Judge had expressed himself greatly against such a course of proceed►ng, and he (the Noble Marquis) certainly thought it a suhje t requiring investigat►on by the Governsnent.—( Hear, hear.) He wished to know whether the Noble Vis count had heard officially of this conduct, and if he had, if it was his duty to institute an inquiry in reference to it. Lord MELBOURNE said be had received no official Information on the subject, but that since he had had an interview with the Noble Marquis opposite, he had directed an inquiry to take place. Lord LURGAN wished to know if the Noble Marquis was aware vaether or not the Learned Judge had dis. charged those men at the close of the assizes? The Marquis of DO WNSHIRE could not give his Noble Friend any information upon the question he had put to him. The Marquis of WESTMEATH having said a few words, the subject was dropped. Lord W ARNC L I FFE presented repetition from the borough of Doncaster on the subject of the appointment of Borough Magistrates. From this petition it appeared to the Noble Lord that the appointment of the Iltrough Magistrates by Lord J. Russell was made upon political feeling. Lord MELBOURNE said that the petitioners did not say so, nor did that appear from the petition. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented two petitions, one from the Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, which embraced a majority of the clergy of England, and the other from a Reverend Prelate of great eminence, now presiding over Australia, upon the subject of the interests of the Established Church now in the colonies. The petitioners set forth at length the darkened religious state of the colonies. In some parts, for dis tances of fifty or sixty miles, there was not a single place of religious worship; and especially in parts where convicts were sent to, the state of wickedness that was described by the petitioners was almost too shocking to read. The Right Rev. Prelate was supplied with a paper from the Society, from which one of the petitions came, and from which it appeared that 300 more clergymen were required for the colon es. This Society itself contributed not less than between 30.0001. and 40,0001. a year to the support of the Church there ; and the petitioners, in urgent terms, peinted out the necessity of additional supplies being granted from other quarters. The petition from Austra ha in p irticular pra3e.l that no Act night be pass-d relatinis to Australia without a due iegard to the intere , ts of the Church there. There was the best feeling prevail ing there towards the Church. There was no objection to an E-tsblished Church there, though there was a great number, both of Dissenters and Roman Catholics there. They subscribed largely towards churches. and they ought to be assisted. It was not only the duty of the Legislature to protect the p ro p erty i n t h e co l on i es that was devoted to its support, but to assist its usefulness in every possible way. He would suggest that some establishment should be formed for the superintendence of the Church in the colonies, so that their Lordships might at all times be able to a , c-rtain the real state and the wants of that Cnure'n. In moving that these petitions do lie on the table the Right Rev. Prelate at the same time moved fur certain IN turns relative to the Church iu - the colonies. The Marquis of NORMANBY agreed in much that had fallen from the Most Rev. Prelate - and be could assure him that he should give him all the papers that he (Noble Marquis) could think would bear at all on the subject, cr be of any use to the Most. Rev. Prelate. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY would assure their Lordships that on every occasion on which he had to meet the Noble Marquis, he had been received with the utmost courtesy, and found the Noble Marquis ever ready to give him all the assistance in his power. The Bishop of LONDON was not dire whether he accurately understood an observation that fell from the Nubie Alai quis. If the Noble Marquis meant to say that the Legislature was bound to meet the demands of the people in the Colonies in reference to the support of the Church there, be must dispute that principle. If on the other hand he meant to say it was bound to meet the wants of the people there, then that would be an accurate principle, because when the number of convicts was considered that were sent to Australia, it was not to be considered that the calls for Church support would be very great. The Earl of ABERDEEN presented petitions from Glasgow, Dumbarton, and other places in Scotland, pray ing for Church extension there. The Noble Earl had presented petitions from upwards of 300 parishes in Scot. land to the same effect. The Marquis of NORMANBY laid on the table a Return of Ecclesiastical Establishments in the Colonies. HILL COOLIES. The Marquis of NORMANBY wished to advert to a subject that had been mentioned a night or two ago, in consequence of its having appeared els ew h ere , t h at he had been misunderstood. In answering a question put to him by the Noble Earl opposite (Lord Ellenbo rough) he was represented to have said that he had not received an official report of a subject reported in the newspapers. In justice to Governor Light, be should be sorry to have it understood that he bad said he had not received an official report on the subject. On the coa trary, he had received art official report, and in conse. quence of that his attention had been particularly called to the matter. The report of General Light stated, that the condition of those unfortunate individuals was riot so bad as had been represented. There were two places at which the Hill Coolies were, and though their condition re quired attention, yet that condition was not quite so un favourable as had been represented. He should lay on the table to-morrow all the papers that had yet been received on the sujef-t. Lord BROUGHAM confessed he had not understood the Noble Marquis the other night, nor did he understand him now. Did the Noble Marquis mean to say that Governor Light's representation was that the condition of the Hill Coolies was not so bad as that of the other Negroes, because if he did, perhaps that might be some solace. The Marquis of NORMANBY said that Governor Light stared there were instances of neglect and cruelty on the two estates on which the Hill Coolies were, but that the general treatment of them, as to their food and lodg ing, was not so bad as had been represented. Lord ELL ENBORO UGH did not think that this ca lamity would have happened if the transit of those indi viduals had been properly attended to; and he should hope that. toe Noble Marquis's inquiry would be extended to the conduct of the persona in whose custody they were. COPYHOLD ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL. Lord BROUGHAM gave notice that be should, on Tuesday next, move the second reading of the Copyhold Enfranchisemeot Bill, which was a very important Bill, and to which his objection as to time did not apply, as it was riot a Government Bill. Here some Noble Lord made an observation from the Treasury Bench w hi c h was not heard. Lord B ROUGHAM—If the Government choose to move it, let them. It's not my Bill—it's not theirs—it comes from the Real Property Commissioners. I wash my hands or it now, and they shall do it. The NOBLE and LEARNED LORD wished to ask the Noble Viscount whether there was any truth in the report 'hat was circulated to. day of a war between the Porte and E gj pt ? It was reported that there was an utter destruc tion ache Ottoman army Lord MELBOURNE, who spoke in a very low tone, was un.lerstuod to say, by the report which had reached Pork, by way of Marseilles, there had been an engage ment, sod that there had been a discomfiture of the Otto man arm' Lord BROUGHAM—:Discomfiture There bag been a total destruction of the Ottornau army, according to the Paris account. wishedtoknowgowhoen scit therit h was theLionrtd,HLti,YmNoDi the RNSolb'le Viscount to the Copybold Enfranchisement Rill this session or not ? Lord MELBOURNE said he should consider of that. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND) LL. On th e O r d er of the D BI I ) beirg read for their Lnrdships resolving themselves into Committee on the Irish Municipal Corpnralioris Bill. Lord Fl ZGERALD pose of m o vi e and VESCI rose for the pur g th it be an to the Committe tt) remove the to , sn at instruction of G a l way from Schedule A to Sche dule B He had the other evening presented a pe titicn from the town of Galway, agreed to at a public meeting with but one dissentient voice, and signed by all the respectable inhabitants of that town, with:ut distinc tion of religion or polities, praying that the House would be pleased to amend the Bill, either by altering the boun daries of the town of Galway, as fixed by that Bill, or by The motion for the instruction to the Committee was thee put and agreed to without a division. Lord L YNDHUR ST said that as he meant to propose several amendments, he would, as he did last year, briefl. state the nature ami scope of what be meant to substitute for the present provisions. First, however; he would refer to the observation s made the other night by his Neblt and Learned Friend opposite (Lord Brougham), as to the delay which had taken place in bringing up Bills to tha. House from the other House. He had looked at the con duct of the other House regarding the present Bill, and his cxerrenation di-closed so much negligence on the p ,rt of the Government, and so little attention towards thei Lordships, that he must give the details of the case. As his Noble and Learned Friend bad said, this Bill was mentioned on the first day of the Session, in the Speech from the Throne, as one deeply affecting the interests o' Irelend. From this one would suppose that the Bill had been made ready to lay on the table of the other House or, the first day of the Session, especially as it was a seagull which hei been three or four years under the considera tion of Government. Ho.vever. the Bill was not laid ou the table of the other House until the 19th of February. The Bill was not read a second time until the 8 , 1) of March. Then Ministers named the 221 for the discussion. But the Easter vacation was next pass, d over, and the discussion was again fixed for the 15th of April. Thus nearly three months were suffered to elapse without taking one substantial step. Well, the 15th of April came on, and the debate was postponed tilt the 18th, and again until the 19th. Meanwhile the ill, which wa s ent i re l y a Government measure, for wh ich,and for the delay, her Majesty's Ministers were entirely re sponsible, had received thirty-four original clauses. The Bill, therefore, could not be ready for Parliament on the 19 ft of April, and the discussion was once more postponed until the 3d of May. On the 3d of May the amend ments were not printed.—( firer, hear.) The dis cussion was therefore put off until the 10th, but On It was the 10th the amendment s were not printed. again put off until the 17th; but on the 17th May the amendments were not printed. The discussion was once more put off until the 31st May, but the amendments were not pi inted even then.—( Loud laughter.) The dis. cussien was finally fixed for the 7th of June, and on the 6th the printed Bill was circulated amongst the Member, of the other House. As it would be impossible to read the Bill in that short interval, the dis cussion was once more put off until the 21st of Jute, and from that time to the 28th, for no further reason that he could perceive. It was a singular circum stance that a few days before the 28th of June her Mejes ty's Ministers gave an intimation that they really did mean that the Bill should be discussed on that day. Very shortly before a straege coincidence with this intimation appeareel in the organ of an individual of great influence, who was said to govern Ireland through the agency of he, Majesty's ;Ministers.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) That was an article in the Pilot newspaper of the 21st of. June. The article said— , Nearly five months of the Session have now passed, and during that time no one measure of public benefit has been carried." That was introductory. —( Laughter.) It continued—" The people, the well wishers of Government, begin anxiously to ask what has become of the Irish Municipal Bill? It would be shock tog in the extreme to have the existence of the condemned Tory Corporations prolonged another year." This article appeared in the Dublin Pilot, on Friday, the 21st of June ; it arrived in London on the next Monday, and on the en suing Tuesday or Wednesday the intimation was given that her Majesty's Ministers did really intend to proceed with the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) Many persons, therefore, had connected th e Mi n i sterral intimation with the editoriel paragraph. The Bill went into Committee, and a few clauses were considered. It was again considered in Com mittee on the 4th of July, and then 250 clauses were dis. posed 'of in four or five hours, though three divisions took place within that time, and although the Bill was of the most intricate and important character. Whether the Government had really intended to abolish " these Tory grievances" or not, as had been questioned, it was evident that a greater degree of inattention, supineness, and negli gence had never been exhibited on any former occasion towards their Lordships by any former Ministry.—( Hear.) As to tile measure itself he would remind their Lordships that the Tory, or Protestant Corporations in Ireland, were established to maintain the Protestant interests in that country.—(Cheers.) He would admit that many abuses may have crept into them, and he was not unwilling that those institutions should cease if something neutral could be established instead. But that was a vain hope. If this Bill were to pass, such was the state of religion and politics in Ireland, he would say, that except the Northern province of Ireland, every populous town would have a Roman Catholic and Radical Mayor —a Roman Catholic and Radical Town Council, and Roman Catho lic and Radical Magistrates.—( Cheers.) And when they considered that the police of that country became more Catholic every day, and when they considered also the state of the large towns in Ireland, they must admit that were any convulsion to take place the most dreadful consequences would fall on the Protestant inhabitants. The Bill would, in fact, root out Protestantism from a great part of Ireland. To borrow the words of the No blo Viscount, "the Bill would inflict a heavy blow and a great discouragement on the Protestant Church, and the Protestant inhabitants of that 'country."—(Hear.) He (Lord . Lyndhurst) had regarded, as connected with this measure, the elections for Guardians of the Poor for Ireland, and he found that in most cases the lists were adopted under the d.c ation of the Catholic priesthood. Therefore from the result of those elections, compared with that of the present Bill, be apprehended the most disastrous results. After what they had just seen iu the heart of this island, could they look with confidence on corporations in Ireland with Radical Town Councillors, and Radical Magistrates ? ( Cheers.) He thought they were bound to vote fur the the second reading of the Bill, but if his amendments should not be adopted in Committee, he would vote against the third reading. As for his amendments they were net ro extensive as those of last Session, because many of his former suggestions had been adopted in the other House. The first amendment would be the most meterial and vital. It proposed that the qualification for a person to he eligible for a burgess should be the oc cupation of a house worth 101. bona fide value, according to the veluation of the Poor Law Commissioners, and on the principle of the Revising Barristers in this country, who in the 10/. qualification included in the value of such an occupation the landlord s repairs, and the insurance paid by the landlord. To those should be added the value of the occupation in Ireland. He objected to the provision that the pecuniary qual.fication should be only for three years. Let the qualification be permanent or let the alters tion only take place after they should have experience of the measure. He trusted they would reject this part of the Bill. The next amendment related to the appoint ment of Sheriffs. He contended that instead of having the Sheriffs of cities and counties of cities and towns in Ire land, appointed by the recommendation of three candidates each time by the Town Council to the Lord Lieutenant, the appointment should be conducted as it was in the coun ties, where, through the inquiry conducted by that Com mittee of their Lordships' House, which he (Lord L.) had moved for, they were now chosen according to the old constitutional mode of being recommended by the Judges to the Lord Lieutenant. He was glad that Sheriffs had been appointed so last year under the government of the Noble Marquis oppo , ite. He approved of the Charity should He proposed that the Dublin Blue Coat Lord L YNDHURST proposed an amendment, to the effect that the qualification should be a 101. one. Viscount MELBOURNE said that the question raised by the Noble Lord as to the 101. qualification, was one of the most important that could be raised regarding this Bill. The qualification was much lower in this country, and Ire land was a poorer country than this, and he must say that it was a most monstrous absurdity to propos e th e hi g h er qualific a ti on f or t h e poorer country, independently of its being a gross act of injustice. Why did the Noble Lords opposite propose this alteration ? Why not adopt the more manly course and oppose the Bill at once, than run the risk of defeating it in this manner. This was one of the main clauses of the Bill, and he would not take upon himself to say what might be the consequence of their Lordships' decision. If they really wished the settle. ment of this question, let them not come to a resolution which would impede its success. Their Lordships would, doubtless, adopt the course which they felt right, but he trusted they would adopt the course most likely to bring this question to an amicable conclusion. 1 The Duke of WELLINGTON had formerly sup ported a measure fur the abolition of all corporations in Ireland, because they were exclusively Protestant. He was now desirous of having the elective prineipleapplied to these Corporations, but in such a manner as should make the existence of these corporations be for the benefit of all classes, i and for the protection of persons and property. He believed the qualification proposed by his Noble and Learned Friend was the one most likely to effect this object, and therefore he should support it. Noble Lords on that side the House were, according to the insinuations of the Noble Viscount, actuated by unworthy motives in their opposition to this clause. He re pudiated such a charge. They were actuated only by worthy motives--they had no objects to attain in dealing with this'Bill but worthy objects. The Noble Viscount insinuated that their Lordships did not mean to carry this Bill. It bad been only under' their Lordships' consideration for a few days, so short a time as to render it impossible to discuss the subject except in this cursory manner. It was those who had had the matter under their consideration during the whole summer, and who, knowing the opinion of th eir Lordships an d o f t h e other House of Parliament, had not brought forward such a measure as would meet the desires of both Houses, who really wished not to carry the measure.— (Cheers. ) div S id t e r d an — gers were then o r d ere d t o w ithdraw, and the Hous e Contents Non-Contents ' 6O Majorit y Several verbalin a i favour nend o m f e L n o t r s d i L n y n o d t b h u e r r s e t posed by Lo r d LYNDH URST . an d agree d to w ithout a di v i sion. 1 s a u a re s e 's i v d e m r e e n t h t then 4 p 3 e a . The Duke of WELLINGTON proposed the introduction of a clause enacting, that where the Corporation of any town propose to appoint any officer other than those usually ap. pointed in any borough, such appointment should not take place until a statement in writing should have been transmitted to the Lord Lieutenant, stating the nature of the office, the reasons for the appointment, and the salary proposed ; and that such appointment should not take place until a warrant, under the hand of the Lord Lieutenant, had been issued authorizing such appointment. Agreed to. • Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI, proposed an amend ment consequential upon the instruction he had moved, which was agreed to. The House then resumed, the Bill with the amendments was ordered to be printed, and the Report to be brought up on Monday. CHURCH DISCIPLINE BILL. The Bishop of EXETER asked if it was intended to proceed with the third reading of thi s Bill to-n i g ht.—( C r i es from all parts of the House "Go on, go on.") Then he should move that the House do now adjourn, the Bill to be suffered to pass through Cnmmittes without discussion, on the understanding that it should have a full discussion on the third reading, which he considered it could not h ave at th i s hour , an d there!ore he I THE SUN, LONDON FRIDAY, JU removing the town of Galway from ScheduleA to Schedule B. He apprehended that it would be a violation of the established practice and would endanger the Bill to propbse the alteration of the boundaries., and therefore he proposed t - iit the town ofGal way be removed from Schedule A to Sche dule B. This amendment would have been proposed in the House of Commons, but the Hon. Member for Galway was necessarily absent from the Committee on account of s: vere illness, or he would have proposed the alteration of the boundaries when the 8 , 11 was before that House. He had three years since proposed as an amendment to a similar Bill, the abolition of all the Corporations of Ireland ; be bad since, however, deferred to the generally expressed opinion of the people of Ireland, and begged to be under stood as not now introducing this amendment in a .pirit at all hostile to the Bill. The fact was the boundaries of the town of Galway were diff!rent in the present Bill to what they were in the last ; they were more circumscribed, and consequently it would be a heavy burden to tbem to have to maintain the mach?hery of a Corporation. In fact they already posses , ed a popular governeient in that town, under the Act of the 9th Geo. I V., to which the petition referred. If they were removed to Schedule B, they would still have the power of making appliew ion to the Government to have a Municipll Corporation, should they at any time deem such a measure desirable. Under these circumstances he trusted that his motion would meet with no opposition. The Noble Lord then moved his in struction. Viscount MELBOURNE doubted whether the House could consistently accede to the wishes of the inhabitants of Galway. A Corporation was not to be considered as a favour granted to a particular town, and which it might ac cept or refuse, but as a duty imposed on it on account ' considerations of general policy, and in this point of view it was not open to the town of Galway to refuse to dis charge its duty. The fact was, the alteration complained of had been introduced by their Lordships themselves in the Bill of last year, and he thought the only remedy would be to rest ore to th em t h e i r former boundary. The Earl of WICKLOW wished it should he left to the option of every town to receive or reject a Municipal Corporation. Lord ELLENBOROUGH dill:red entirely from the view taken by the Noble Viscount. In this case the town of Galway already possessed a popular local government, and they preferred that to the Corporation, and wished to have an optian as to which popular local government they would rec4ive. Earl FITZ WILLIAM wished to know when this de sire of removal into Schedule B first titanifestei itself? Lord FITZe3ERALD had received the first commu nication on the subject on Saturday. The Duke cf WELLINGTON had understood that the people of Ireland were de,irous of having these Corpo. rations ; but it appeared now, according to the Noble Viscount, that these Corporations were not a boon con ferred, but a burden imposed —a duty required.—(A laugh.) Viscount MELBOURNE had not mentioned the word burden. There was a great difference between a duty and a burden. Earl FITZ WILLIAM had not asked the question ow of curiosity, but to ascertain whether the feeling had been of long standing or of recent growth. Lord FITZGERALD explained. Viscount MELBOURNE thought the House should be cautious how they proceeded, nr they might have a pe tition presented complaining of the course they had adopted. The Noble Lord had stated that the petitiou had boa signed by all the respectable inhabitants of Gal. way; this he supp.sed did not include the numerical ma jority.—(A laugh. ) Lord FITZG ERA I.D said the petition was signed by 200 respectabl- inhabitants. The population of the dis trict was 16,000. The Marquis of WESTMEATH said, if erer there was an absurd attempt to anglicise everything Dish the present. Bill was one. school and Erasmus Smith's sehool s both of which had been instititted efdliisiVe Protertant purposes, should be managed by Protestant trustees, on the same principle that had been found to work so advantegeously ire 8 school in Lincolnshire. His should be satisfied to adopt the minute of the Noble Viscount opposite as a guide' for the compensation of trustees. The neat amendment related to the thirty-four new clauses which Caere introduced into the Bill on the 19th of April, for the purpose of transferring the power of raising money from the Grand to the Petty Juries. He objected to this pro posed change alto ether. Let theft nafiSine this point hereafter. He would merely remind their Lordships that the presentments of the Grand Juries were now under a check, for they had to undergo the fiat of the Judges. With respect to the new charters, he thought, with the experience of Birmingham and Manchester before them, charters to Ireland ought to be granted only when peti flora for them had been signed by a majority of inhabitants in each case, who would be elioible for burgesses under the Bill. He pry posed to glee the maoagernent of the public property, in places which should not apply for a charter, to persons who would under the Bill be qualified as burgesses, and who should be created Commissioners— that was, they should have 10/ qualifications, for he should consider the 6/. qualification required by the 9'h of George the Fourth insufficient. This was the scope of his amend. ments. If they were adopted, he would support the Bill ; if the Bill, however, should not include them, but should come out of the Committee at all in shape like the pre. sent, he should give it, on the third reading, his warmest and most strenuous opposition.—( Loud cheers.) Lord BROUGHAM felt much pain in having to oppose his Noble and Learned Friend, after the luminous and forcible statement he had made to the House, in that happy style in Which he had never been surpassed, and was per haps without an equal, However, he agreed with his Noble and Learned Friend respecting the culpable neglect and delay in bringing up the Bill from the other House. Those observations confirmed the general observations he (Lor Brougham) made the other night. Sdil he was of opinion, that they had still time enough to make it such a Bill as should deserve to be passed into a law. His Noble and Learned Friend's amendments he should call alters (ions. His arguments went beyond his opinions. He had no objection, it seemed, to dismantle the fortresses of Protestantism, provided he could establish in their stead corporations composed of neutrals hi religion and politica. A Catholic, and perhaps a Radical Mayor, would be un ;avoidable under th e Bil l, as the Catholics ' were more numerous than the Protestants by five to one. He must say that a neutral in religion, which, seemed to be a desi deratum to his Noble and Learned Friend, must be an odd sort of animal, being a man who belonged to neither one religion nor another—(Leughter)—who was neither Catholic, Protestant, Gre, k, nor Jew. It must be very rare to get such a one. Ile believed they , night be more , likely to get a neutral in politics, ;.bough it must still be very rare to find him. If they could find a neutral in religion they ought to shut him up in a cage—if they could catch a neutral in politics iney should keep him in a museum for conservancy sake. —( Laughter.) He thought the quslification proposed be . his Noble and Learned Friend was too high, though perhaps there was not in reality more than des. or 16s. cliffs rence between them —( Hear, hear.) He thought -the household tuff-age ssould be qualification enough both in England and Ireland. With regard to the appointment t l :o f t lS nt h y er S ifr her h ifF P He would merely allude to the iwwouel;el rfe.remqiuttthr Lordships that in their, in point. With regard to the appointment of Magistrates, a c p it p y o o il . te L d o te , y id c o s n irp a r s ira a ti c o a n s s e , eid the allusion made by hi s Noble and Leareed Friend to what had recently hspeened in one of the central towns of this kiagdom, he thought that was not the iault of the system, but of some indiscreet appoinonents, .rid he said this without manning in the least to•insinuate anything againet the respectability of the parties but msrely to state that they had corn. stinted themselves to some opinions rather too in utheestcioauseu, fthoPsueYsper sons ranee, for i nstance, and as was liscreetly—he m i g h t mention always e ay q s went forth and exhibited greater activity in the sup pression of any tumult than other persons. lie agreed with his Noble and Learned Friend, that there was ao bscurity in the English Act as to the manner in which the sense of a majority of the inhabitants was to be ascer .ained, in order to make the grant of a Charter valid. It ought in the present Bill to be made clear how the :ease of a majority of the inhabitants was to be taken, because a charter to a town was not a duty imposed, out it was necessary that it should be accepted by ;he town, as well as granted by the Crown, before it sould be valid. At all events it should be clearly enacted 'hat when a charter was since gratoel it should not be rendered invalid by scare Acias in consequence of any in *ormality subsequently discovered in cohvening- the inha bitants, or in ascertaining the sense of the majority. If some enactment of this sort were not introduced, it would sad to inextricable confusion. He had now gone through as shortly as lie could all the grounds of amendment pro roved by his Noble and Learned Friend, and he earnestly hoped this was the last time that they would have this mea sure before the House. He trusted their Lordships would ee enabled to come to such an understanding as to put this natter into such a train as to have it once for sill satisfac torily settled. I they looked to the interest it had excited in both Houses of Parliament, arid the mariner in which it was regarded by the people of Ireland, it was the more desirable that it should without delay pass int, a law. Lord L YNDH URST explained. He had never spoken of men neutral in religion, but he conceived it desirable, Aid by no means difficult to establish a body of a neutral Character as regarded religion. Lord B R 0 UG H A M could understand that a body com posed of men neutral in religion might be in feed a neutral body ; but be thought a Corporation composed of ten Protestants and of ten Catholics, instead of being a neu tral body, would produce the greatest combustion that could be emu ived.—( A laugh.) The Earl of WICKLOW could not see how her Ma jesty's Ministers could consider the Bill so much deterio rated by the amendments proposed as to give it up if they were carried. There was' but little real difference b-- tween them on the question of qualification. He was deci dedly in favour of the 81 qualification, as ascertained by the Poor. law Commissioners, as if that were not adopted They would have three distinct ratings—the Parliamentary, the Poor-law, and the Municipal —a state of things which waS highly inexpedient. Tiae 81. franchise in towns be considered as great as the elective franchise, and he hoped that the introduction of this municipal system mighi, lead to a new system of Parliamentary qualification. He thought the qualification ought to be higher in Dublin than in other 'owns. If it were proposed to make it so the proposition should meet with his support. He for one would protest against the qualification of three years, and in that respect would support the opinion of the Noble and Learned Lord. He thought that the appointment of sheriffs should, for the present, be left to the Lord Lieutenant, although it might be perhaps expedient to introduce some alterations in that respect hereafter. He believed, if their Lordships could agree on these points, the remainder of the Bill would give but little trouble. Lord LYNDHURST explained. Lord BROUGHAM expl a i ne d, • The Marquis of WESTMEATH objected to the power which this Bill gave to corporate bodies, of imposing taxes and rates. The House then resolved itself into Committee on the Bill. The clause respecting the three years' qualification was amended, with a view to make the qualification perma nent, on the motion of Lord LYNDHURST, without opposition. On the clause being proposed relative to the 8/. quail. fication, Contents 91 Non Contents. Alajority in favour of the third reading --9 The Bill was then read a third time and passed. The India Courts Bill was read a third time, and their Lord. ships adjourned at Half-past One o'Clock. HOUSE OF COAINUNS, JuLr 25. . The Sesabu.a took the Chair at the usual hour. RAILWAYS. The ATTORNEY GENERAL presented a petition very numerously and respictahly signed from the city of Edinburgh, comphining of a Standing Order of the House, which required a deposit of 10 per cent, of the capital to subscrib. d and deposittd before any Railriay Bill could be introduced. The petitioners said such a regulation was an impediment to bona fide undortaking.s, and sug. rested that only 5 per cent. of the capital should be re quired to be paid up, and the, remaining 5 per cent. before ground was broken, or the undertaking commenced. Th, Hon. and Learned Gentleman moved that the paprr by printed, and gave notice that on Tuesday next he should call the attention of tha House to the subject, in order to have the regulation ame,,cl ,, d, SILK FACTORIES. Mr. GRINISDI PCH presented petitions from Glouces ter, Norwich, and two other places, cc mplaining of silk f.ctories Icing included in the provisions of the Factorie:- all then before the House,- inasmuch as it would materi allyinjure the train!. Mr. EASTfI 0 PE presented a petition' from John Bollam, a silk manufacturer, to the same effect. Mr. WA RBURTON presented three petitions praying for a unifoim plan of penny postage. Lord ELIOT presented a petition from Colonel B. Fairman, complaining of the injury done to his cha racter and prospects by a Report of that House, and ing inquirv,—( A lau g h.) Mr. HUME begged to ask the Honourable and Learned Attorney-General when they might expect a Report on the case of Stockdale v. Ihsard, from the Committee ap poit.ted on that subject ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL begged the Hon. M. , mber to put this question when the Noble Lord who seas Chairman of the Committee was present. Mr. O'CONNELL said the Hon. Member assumed that the Committee had met. It ought to have sat, but he believed it had never yet sit.—( Hear, hear.) The Soldiers' Pensions Bil :was on the motion of Lord HO WICK, read a third time and passed. After a pause of some minutes, no Member of the Go. vernsnent being present, Sir R. PEEL remarked that ho thought it had been understood that public business was to commence directly private business and petitioning had ceased.--( ) The SPEAKER said undoubtedly such was the under standing, CHARITABLE TRUSTS. Sir ROBERT PEEL wished to draw the attention of :he Attorn-.‘.y-General to the great inconveniences at present existing in respect to charitable trusts for educa tion in this country. There were many cases of small en. dowments of 81. or 101. per annum for such purposes— where through some inadvertence, the trusts were not le gally constituted, and there were gentlemen in the neigh bourhood willing to become trustees, but to procure a valid authority they must apply to the Lord Chancellor, which would cost 601. or 701. Now he would suggest whether it might not be possible to frame some shorter and less ex pensive mode of application to the Court in these cases. The ATTORNEY GENERAL said he should feel great pleasure in aidini , the attainment of that most desir able object which had been suggested by the Right Han. Baronet, but there were considerable difficulties in the question. He should likewise feel pleasure in endeavour. ing to remedy cases where the object for which schools had been constituted, had become, through the change of circumstancs in the lapse of ages, inapplicable —cases in which it would be very convenient tbat some power should be established for summarily remedying the defects in;the constitution of the schools. Teere were many cases of schools endowed in the reigns of Elizab...t or Edward the Sixth, where the schoolmasters had large salaries, and few, or no scholars, which could not at pre s‘'nt be remedied, except by Act of Parliament.—( Hear. ) Capt. PE CH ELL said that was a most important sub ject, and he wished to know if there was any iotention to legislate upon the Charities' Committee? He knew a case, that of Berkhampstead (we believe), where schoolmaster had 2301. a-year and his son 1201, with a magnificent house, and not a single scholar._.( Hear, hear.) Mr. BROTHER FON said it had been proposed that there should be a Board, in which these Charities should be vested, and have the power of appointing trustees. The Highway and Turnpike Roads Returns BM was ; read a seccnd time. Y 26, 1839 should make use of his privilege to throw every obstacle in the *ay of the procelding that evening. Lord LYNDHURST trUsierl he might be permitted to mere that the Custody of Infants' Bill go throdgli Ccantreittee pro forma. 'the Biil was then committed, certain verbal amendments introduced, and rdered to he reported on Monday. The Seoteh Prisons Bill was read a third t ime and passed, after the introduction of some amendments on the motion of the Earl of GALLOWAY. The Bishop of EXETER then moved the adjournment of the Hotise: Lord HOLLAND said it was a most unusual way of seeking the discussion of the Bill, to move the adjournment at ten o'clock, when the House was full and anxious to enter into the debate. The Bishop of EXETER would persevere in his motion as there had been a distinct understanding that the whole of one evening should be devoted to this discussion, and it was now too late to enter upon it. Earl FITZ WILLIAM said there must be two parties to every agreement, and he should like to know what was the understanding on the part of the o th er party . The Earl of DEVON thought the Bill might be proceeded with that evening ; however lung the Right Rev. Prelate might speak he should have to reply to him, yet he was perfectly willing to enter into the discussion. Lord WYNFORD though , the discus s i on m i g h t procee d . The Bi s h op o f EXETER would not persist in his motion of adjournment. The Order of the Day for the third reading of the above Bill was that read. The Bishop of EXETER suggested, as the amendments to the Bill had not been printed, that before the discussion pro ceeded the author of these amendments should explain their nature to the House. The Earl of DEVON had no idea that the Right Rev. Pre late, who had been present at the discussion of many of these amendments, had been in such a state of ignorance regarding them. The object of a Bill introduced by the Most Reverend Prelate on this subject, had been to submit all cases of delin quent clerks to the Court of Arches, to this the Right Rev. Pi elate had objected as interfering with the powers inherent— the Episcopal Office. He should be sorry to interfere with any of those powers ; and by the preient Bill it was enacted that when clerks submitted themselves to the Episcopal jurisdiction the Bishop might have the authority of suspending privately, and taking measures regarding the revenues of the benefice; but when the conduct of the clerk required judicial revision, it was felt that it would be as well that the Bishop who, in the first instance, was almost necessarily the accuser, should not also act as judge, but that function should be exercised by some officer of the highest authority. Viscount CANTERBURY had no objection to the second reading of the Bill. A saving of time and labour seemed to be .lesirable in those courts. But there was no preventive in the Bill against malicious slanders against the elegy of the Esta blished Church. . The charge, instead of being publicly ex pressed, should be communicated to the Bishop of the accused Aerg) man. A clergyman should not be put in a worse situa ion than a iayman. The Bill made two promises in theory, but it did not make equal practical divisions,; for it hit twenty one Secs in Canterbury, while there were but four in Y•irk. He had a great many objections in detail, but he approved of the spirit and preamble of the Bill ; but many of its enact ments were harsh and severe, amounting almost to injustice. ite did not think the other House would have time to pets the Bill this Session. Lord WYNFORD objected to the Bill, on the ground that it was totally inconsistent with the preamble. It would be more expensive than the old law, and it would inflict the great hard chin of submitting clergymen to be tried on paper evidence, without being confronted with their accusers, as men were in any other class of life. He concluded by moving the third reading of the Bill that day six months. The LORD CH A NCELLOR said the present was not at all his Bill ; it differed altogether from the one he had introduced, which was to effect real Church discipline, which could be s6arcely said to exist now. So great was the de fects of the Ecclesiastical Courts, which exceeded eighty in number, that the Commissioners could not define their powers —for some Of them hail jut isdietion over a single parish. He objected to that provision in this Bill which proposed to bring accused clergymen before a secret tribunal. However, he should be pleased :f the present Bill, though it was much ,deteriorated, compared to his, should effect any of his objects, even in a minor degree. The Bishop of EXETER opposed the third reading. He was astonished to hear the Noble end Learned Lord on the Woolsack ready to vote for the third reading, thoueh he had found so many grave faults in the Bill. He wished to know where suits wi-re to he instituted with a view to obtain sentences of deprivation. The Court could not be empowered by their Lordships or any temporal authority to pass these sen tences. It was merely a Lay Court, and had authority only by Act of Parliament. He would contend, that according to the Canons of the Church of England, sentence of , - xcommunication should not be pronounced by a lay man, and that if it were so pronounced the Church of England would lose its authority as a Chutch. He trusted he had shown the absurdities and iniquities (if this Bill were such that it would not be read a third time and sent down to the other House as the result of their Lordships' wisdom. The Duke of WELLING TON would recommend their Lordships, considering the late hour, to adjourn the debate, as the subject could not be properly considered to-night. The Bishop of LONDON would not detain their Lordships, as he did not think the arguments of the Right Rev. Prelate required a very elaborate answer, but he trusted he might be permitted to proceed this evening. The fiscal absurdities, as his Right Rev. Friend called them, existed in the Bill, which he had been perfectly willing to pass, provided he could have introduced his own amendments into it. It was de. sirable t 3 g ive a legal v a lidit y t o an arrangement between a Bishop and a criminous clergyman, whom it might be desir able to get rid of, and this validity was given by one of the clauses of this Bill. Under the existing law the Bishop had the power of disposing of the accumulation of sequestered livings, and this Ei'l gave him no further ower. He was ready to admit that spiritual jitrisd.ction was inherent in a Bishop, but for his coercive ju isd.ction he must be indebted to the State, and these two kinds of jurisdiction had throughout been confounded by the Right Reverend Prelate. On this subject he would appeal to the authority of Bishop Jewell, Bishop Wilson, Bishop Camden. Indeed the appellant juris diction which his Right Reverend Friend had entirely over looked completely demonstrated the unsoundness of his theory. He would further quote on this head the authority , of Charles I. in his answer to the Co mm i s i oners at t h e Isle of Wight, and to whose great knowledge in ecclesiastical matters justice had not been dOne. With respect to Consistorial Courts he knew that great objections existed as to admitting the decisions of clergymen on questions of law. With regartl to the seve rity of the sentence that may be passed on a clergy man by a Bishop, it should be recollected that the pro ceeding on the part of the clergyman was voluntary, and that he might demand a trial it he chose. All the amendments introduced by the Committee had been done so with a view to mitigating its severity. He felt anxious the Bill should pass their Lordships' House, and be made known to the clergy, although he could scarcely hope it should become law this Session. He begged to return his cordial thanks to the Noble Earl who had moved the third reading, for the friendly assistance he had rendered in making the Bill what it was. After a few words in explanation from the Bishops of Exeter and London, and from Viscount Canterbury, their Lordships divided:— _E "NlNr(),' _-.....--. JUDGES' LODGINGS BILL. A ct was passed for the establishment of Joint-stock- Banks On the motion of the A i'TOli NE Y-G ENE RA L, the there, and that led to the establishment of the Provincial Judges' Lodgings Bill was read a third tittle and passed. Bank of !relent!. With that establishment it was his' , for rafter a few observations frem Lord G. Sons rset. tune to be connected for many years. Tit, Beillseat Ins• TURNPIKE TOLLS. land had not taken a step for the es!ablishrnetit or braiich , s Mr. F. MA tat newest the third reading of the Turn. in the provinces. The rule of the Bank of Ireland watt that pike Tolls all. it would only discount paper in Dublin, and the. payment Lord G. SOMERSET objected to the third reading of postages and other charges raised the accommosfoion of the 1311, as its effscts would be to repeat' the ea, ts.e in in the provinces to so high a rate that it necessarily led to the General Turnpike Act, allowing extra chargea to b e tFie establishment of rival banks. Under the provieiatia of made for oyerweieht. ' the law which was then passed the Provincial Batik arag Captain PECHELL had introduced the Bill because established. That was followed by ssveral other backs which it had been called for by the trustees of many turnpike we: e ali carrying 0 ., b us i ness in Jr land. Under the law a s It roar's. stood, there was a p ower o f having three different descrip- Sir J. GRAHAM would oppose the thi r d rea di ng o f tons o f bankt, if not four; first, there Was the Bank of the present Bill, and divide the House upon it, unless h Ireland, which, under the law as it at present- .stood, heard some strong reason for it. He thought that nothing being a bank of issue and deposit, had the power of was more feir than that the greater weights should hear the carrying on its establishment throughout the country, greater tolls. He could not see why the General Turn. and baying its notes on demand in specie where they were pike Act for England should be altered to suit particular made payable. The next sort o f b an k was a Joiet distriete. stock B .nk, not of issue but of deposit, and for other Mr. F. MAULE did not see anything objectionable •in banking purposes. These banks were carried on in Dub the Bill. and within a circuit of fifty miles. They had the power Sir THOS. FR E EMANTL E objected to the Bill. by law of carrying on all banking operations, save and exec6pt Capt. PECHEL L hoped the House would not be the issue of notes. They might accept or draw bills misled by the Right Hon. Baronet. The present Bill was to any amount, but they could not be banks of issue in the not intended to repeal the former Act, but merely t o ex. ,netropnlitan circle. The next class were issuing banks; tend its provisions. being Joint-stock Banks, consisting of more than six Lord GR.ANVILLE SOMERSET rose to order. partners, and carrying on business, not in Dublin The Gallant Officer had replied to the observations or within the metropolitan circle of fifty-eight miles, which he had made, and he now was rising to reply to those hut in the provinces of Ireland. They had the priri of ti.e Right Hon. Baronet. He was clearly out of order. lege of transacting all species of banking business Mr. AGLIONBY agreed that the Gallant Officer was unreservedly without the liniit of that circle, and out of order, but as he could not call the attention of the they had not exactly by law, but by guff ranee. House to the subject, he (Mr. Agliorby) would reply to the power of having a house of business in Dublin and the observations of the Right Hon. Baronet. By the Act retiring their notes in Dublin. There was a fourth class of the 4th Geo. IV., c. 93, it was enacted that the Corn- which it was almost unnecessary to mention. He meant missionsrs of Turnpikes, within ten miles of the metropolis, private banks consisting of less than six parteers, should have the power of reducing tolls levied !by weight. who had the power of doing business whether within Du The present Bill only extended those provisions to the tin or without the circle ;of these there were very few, and other parts of the kingdo m; and h e wou ld as k th e p ar - none without the circle, while in Dublin there were but ties opp os i ng this 1311, why that which was lase three or four, Latotiches. gill's, and one or two others. within tea miles of the metropolis, should not be extenaeo He had now laid before the, House the exact state of the to the other trusts'of the kingdom? There was no oppo.. law as affected these banks : ;tie practice under that law sition to this clause in the Act of the 411 Geo. IV., when required furth e r explanation. The Bank of Ireland would it was first introduced, and he submitted that such being ehitfle occupy the attention of the Houma e to-night t it had the case, arguments m uc h more cogent than those whi c h me genere l o ffi ce i n D ubl i n. and twen t '' -t wo agencies had been add uce d were requ i ted to induce the House to ,h roug h out t h e country; there was the H ' ibssrnian Join s. refuse its assent to this Bill. It was extraordinary if all stock Bank, not of issue, in the metropolis ; theae wa s the these matters had undergone a full discussion at the Royal Bank of Ireland, not of issue, within the mett - PPel l ' time of the passing of the General Turnpike Act ; there were the private banks ; the Provincial Bank, w'is'h `35 that in the Session immediately following the House should hranches: the National Bank, with 36 branches; the Belfaa t have eonsented to make th e material alteration which was Banking Company, with 20 branches ; the Ulster Banking introduced into those laws by the Act of the 4th Geo. IV. Company, with nine branches; and the Northern Banking Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House Company, with 10 branches. The House would observe, divided, when there appeared— that the practical banking business of Ireland was -now For the third reading of the Bill 54 really carried on by th e B an k o f I reland in the metropo li s , Against it 29 and with branches: and the Joint-stock Banks, hay in g Majority in favour of the Bill_ —25 branches in number from 10 to 20. Now, this State of The all was thou read a third time and passed. things had gone on fur the last five or six yea" Sir H. II A RDINGE. seeing the Hen. Member for The Provincial Bank was certainly of earlier esta - Windsor in his pl ace . w i s h ed to ask that Hen. Gentleman, blish men t, b ut t hi s state of things had only been in oho had acted as Chairman of a Committee which had full operation during the period he bad stated• est for the purpose of taking into consideration the subject That which rendered the interposition of Parliament new of fees, and which hid recommended the abolition of all necessary was the peculiar state of the law as regarded the otUciel fses, what steps had been taken by the G ivernment Bents of Ireland. By the engagements which had been for carrying the recommendations of that Committee into entered into between the public and the Bank of Ireland effect ? the existing exclusive privileges of the Bank of Ireland-- - Mt. R GORDON apprehended that the GOvernment denominate'd a,, monopoly," a word which had undoubtedly had ca' ied the recommendati o n s of the Committee into created considerable prejudice on the subject, a prejudice effect, as far as regarded the departments of Customs, Ex- which he believed, on full and fai r exp l anat i on, would b e vise, and Seamus, and i n a ll d epa rtmetits of the Civil removed—the Bank of Ireland had been entitled to Service. With respect to the Ordnance and the Array, the continuance of the exclusive privileges which although the Government approved of the reeommenda- they now possessed until the first of January, 1840, Beene o f the Committee, he believed they had not yet been when, upon notice given to them and upon the enabled to carry them into effect eayment to them of the debt which the public owed then', BANK OF IRELAND. their exclusive privileges altogether ceased, and the trade The CHANCELLOR of tht EXCHEQUER, in in banking was left entirely free. The proposition which moving that the Oozier of the Day for the House re- lie was about to make, was, that these exclusive privileges solvin g its e lf into Committee on the subject of the Bank of should be for a certain time continued to them on some Ireland be now read. wishe-h to ask the Hon. Gentleman to specified condition. The proposition that would be mode withdraw the motion of which he had given notice, respecting ay the Hon. Member for Kilkenny was, that it would be en instruction to the Committee. At-cording to the strict expedient that these exclusive privileges should altogether rules of the Hcua', those matters only could be moved cease and determine, and that the trade in banking, bath as an instruction to the Committee, which the r 3ommittee as affected the issue of notes and all other operations of itself was incompetent to perform without such instruc- banking business should be perfectly free in Dublin, as it tion, but it was perfectly competent to the lion. Gentleman to was in Edinburgh—that in fact the most unfettered free /neve in Committee that of which he had given notice as dom of trade should be applied to this branch of it. He an instruction. lie did not wish to throw the slightest (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) admitted that he was obstruction in the way of the Hon. Gentleman, but he bound to prove the necessity of the restriction when pro thought moving this instruction might be establishing an petting it, and he thought he should be able to prove this inecnvenient precedent, and would n o t b e in strict accord- satisfactorily. He denied altogether the applicability. of ante with the regulations of the House. the general principle of freedom of trade to the question Mr. HUM E would agree to the proposition of the of the making of money. He denied that it could be Right Hon. Gentleman. All he wanted was to have an said for the purposes of freedom of trade there ough t opportunity of moving his resolution, which he would quite to be an unlimited power of issuing promissory notes• as willingly do in Committee as before. Then, if it was not to be discussed as a question The.SPE A KER thought it would be more in order to of freedom of trade, let it be discussed as a matter of ea move the resolution in Committee than by way of in pediency. He was not prepare d to say, that either ill, struction. Englandor Ireland th e p u bli c i nterests were tu b e a d van ced Mr. WA RBURTON thought a question might be by an unrestrained competition of issue banks, and If raised as to the propriety of legislating on the subject at they had at the present moment a new country to deal all during the present Session, and that it might be expe- with, io which interests under the existing laws were not client to raise this question before going into Committee. created, which might be difficult, if not inexpedient and The CHANCELLOR o f t h e EXCHEQUER said impossible, to disturb—he did say, th at w i t h the ijAht , 1 ., that such a reso l ut i on cou ld b e quite as well considered in that had been thrown on thi s su bj ect, they wows.- Committee, not, at the present moment, sanction a propositiort The House then r eso l ve d i tse lf i nto Committee on the of issue banks, but the principle to which they would . Acts relating to the Bunk of Ireland, adhere would be one central issue that had : The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said if the whole command of the _public currency— the Hon. G en tl eman w i s h e d to b ring forward his resolu. He was not stating this as a matter of principle, but be wa : , tion in th e fi rst i nstance h e h ad no o bj ect i on to such a mode only laying do wn th e propositions, for the purpose of seeing, of proceeding. which proposition was the best, his or that of his Hon• Mr. H U a JE rose, but was interrupted by Friend the Member for Kilkenny.. He knew that his Hon. Sir R. PEEL, w h o was o f op i n i on that the lion. Gen- Friend relied upon the fact that in Scotland the freedom tleman could not be strictly in order in bringing forward of issue existed, but he doubted extre me ly w h et h er t h er e the resoluti on now . was any analogy whatever between the state 'of banking The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was irs Scotland and that of Ireland. He was certain perfectly willing t o g i ve th e Hon. Gentleman a pre- that any one conversant with the subject — un tie cedence. know that no two systems were so different. Look Sir R. PEEL th oug h t it was desirable t o a dh ere str i ct l y at the immense capital engaged in the banking to the forms of the House. Suppose the Han. Gentleman trade in Scotland ; the funded property at the to succeed in carrying his resolution, then he would have command of the Scotch, and available at all to bring in a Bill, and carry it through the House, to times, exceeded, in a tenfold degree, the whole capital carry that resolution into effect. engaged in the banking business of Ireland. That was . Mr. O'CONNELL said that such a course would not ' a just and legitimate cause of the distinction between be neceseary, because the law authorising the existence of the two countries. He denied that the excess of the B ink of Ireland would expire, and therefore there capital in Scotland was attributable to the system adopted would be no necessity to introduce a. Bill on the subject, there. Other circumsta nces were to b e cons id ere d, S u ch , even should the H on . M em b er f or Kil kenny succeed. was the confidence in the paper circulation of Scotland, Mr. (LAY thought it would be more convenient for that, without undervaluing the resources that country migh t the Hon. Gentleman to proceed. possess in money, to answer its promissory notes—that he Sir R. PEEL suggested that the Right Hon. Gentle- would take upon himself to say, comparing the circulation inan should he permitted to bring in hie Bill, and that it of paper in the two countries, gold was required in a ten' would be competent t o th e H on . G ent l eman to move in fold degree in Ireland to what it was in Scotland the Committee on the Bill. Without going into the causes of that, but looking at the. Mr. HUME was only desirous that the subject should facts, there had been such a succession of rushes upon the be fully discussed—as to the manner of the discussion he Banks of Ireland for the last ten years, which hid rendered .vas in the hands of the House. He would only say, that it necessary that there should be a s u pply of the present course h a d b een a d opte d a f ter consultation with country, ten times greater than th e demand for specie all the Right Hon. Gentleman an d w i t h t h e S peaker, that time for Scotland. If, therefore, it was found ti'a t The CHANCELLOR o f th e EXCHE QUER said he the capital possessed by the banks of Scotland exceeded was about t o i n t ro d uce to t h e attention of the House a sub. in an infinite degree the capital possessed by all the Henke p the et which he had h ope d was likely to be discussed exclu. of Ireland, and if they found on gold for that other hand , sively upon its own merits; and undoubtedly if any other that the state of Ireland was such as to ex- subject was introduced it would not only be irrelevant, hut pose the Bank of Ireland to eager and e ffec withdraw their minds from the particular preposition which it tive demands for gold, which were not only incon was their d u t y now to consider. The subject was one of venient to them but to the country, injuring its cir the most important that could be presented to Parlia ment , cu l at i on i n no ord i nar y degree, it wa s va i n to t ell important t o t h e b est interests of Ireland, but no less im him that the case of Scotland governed the cave Anent to the best interests of England also, because it of Ireland. The fact was, that the case of Ireland must lid not r e st mer e ly upon theory, but upon the experience be allowed to rest upon its own merits. He hod stated of last year. Every system which had a tendency to that the banking system of Ireland had been of late check circulation there, re-acted immediately on this years conducted through the agency of Joint-stock Banks_ country, and h e m i g h t appeal to every man, more and the Bank of Ireland. He wished to call th e atten tion i f especially t o any G ent l eman who was connected the House to this feet. He did not call upon them to with th e B an k o f E ng l and, whether in times of dif- vote for his resolution upon any arguments of his own, but ticulty and pressure upon their establishment, some of h e ca lled upon them to do so upon the evidence which he the greatest difficulties with which they had had was now about to tender. The House would, doubtless, to contend, and those which caused them the greatest recollect that a Committee had been appointed for two labour to surmouct, were difficulties c onnec t e d w i t h t h e succe ssive years upon the affairs of Joint-stock Banks circulation of Ireland, and when it was considered there in Ireland. In 1837, the subject was before a Com was in Ireland a large circulation, not on ly s i m il ar i n many m itt e e, and in 1838, that examination was resumed. No, respects t o th e circulation , of Great B r it a i n , b ut a l so th a t th er e opposition what ever was made to the production of was a large circulation of small notes p a y a bl e on d e mand the witnesses before that Committee, and there et all pl aces o f i ssue, he thought it was obvious on the gee. fore no impediment was thrown in the way of an neral principle of the case, as it was also obvious from investigation into the affairs of th e B an k s o f I re l an d. The the experience of th e l ast years, that i f the system o f case was fully gone into, and that evidence was tendered banking introduced into that country tended to dis. upon which he was now about to rely. The parties exae , turb the public credit an d pro d uce a d eman d for gold, mined before that Committee were parties connected with the difficulty was not limited to Ireland, but showed the Banks of Ireland. The Governor of the Bank itself in the demand for gold on the Bank of England. of Ireland, and Mr, Needham, connected with the Royal Such had bee n th e resu l t o f t h e t wo or t h ree l ate runs or Bank were next examined, as were Mr. Mahoney. and panics. He wish e d t o p ress this on the attention of Ho- Mr. Finn, a most intelligent man of business, who was nourable Memb ers , not t h at t h ey wou ld be indifferent connected with some of the private banks of Ireland• to this question becau se it was an Irish question ; on There were also two gentlemen of the name of Gallagher! the contrary, he should entreat their attention on Irish and Dunn, examined at great length, and several grounds also, but he should be prepared to prove other witnesses were also produced. When the evidence that in the settlement of the Irish question the best in- was completed there was no suggestion made as to and t e 'erests of England were also involved.-_( Hear.) It did necesssity of taking further evidence _upon the subject._ not necessarily follow that he was thereby assuming that it therefore he was entitled to say, that the evidence sa n a! 1 a was the interest of England or Ireland to'acquiesce in his a complete state. Ia order to make this evidence into- proposal, but he did say that in the proper settlement of ligibte he would take the liberty of recurring to . rvi m is u e the question, the interests of both countries were involved, circumstances that occurred in 1835 and 1836, nthe Ireland, He would now proceed very shortly and simply to lay neither the complaints broaght against the Bank of before the House the history of the Bank of Ireland, and nor his arguments in answer to those complaints, would yin 1 . , eland the state of the banking establishments in that country, intelligible. In the year 1836, or towardsn the- w close of which it was necessary Hon. Members should be ac- that year, a very severe pressure was the banking ou id b* quaintest with, before they proceeded to give a vote on interests in bo.h countries, and the d fe ige ° ult the subject. The situation of the Bank of Ireland was in preceded the pressure on the Bank of England. . At that some respects peculia r , It wa s establish e d about 1782, period he did not think the conduct . of the Bank of Ireland les. When the Bank and at that period it was looked to by the great was based on prudent banking P mass of the people of Ireland with considerable of En land raised its rate of principles. When T u h n e d y ou d b id te n d o ly d o:: anxiety, as being an establishment that was likely every proper principle, theought to , _ ), n t k h the fl3an Irelando England to contribute to the improvement of that country. raised their interest at samethe afte i d me and, undoubtedly, as far as that r He would not trouble the House with the legislation which so for a considerabledti 1 was not there to contend that the' s took place on the subject between the years 1782 and taken the step they 1797. but it was a remarkable circumstance in approach- step was concerned , he ing this subject that the suspension of cash payments in conduct bed been prudent . He thought it was the duty et Ireland was neither required by the transactions of the the Bank of Ireland,. as it ‘. was the duty of every well ma- Bank of Ireland —was not asked for in reference to naged bank in theissueoi paper, to keep the most vigilant_ any Irish interest whatever, but that on the con- eye upon the whole of the transactions of the Bank of trary the Bank of Ireland, at that period, was England—upon the q ua rterly ex r7 h u a r n u g s e o s f , a th n e d ir to as r se eg ts ui and in a position perfectly stable_perfectly competent to liabilities- 4 P" the state of the sp ec i e i n their coffer . s-- ate carry on its own transactions; and it was only in upon the state pd. of the foreign . lugs upon all those transactions. He adm it ; the Bank of Ireland had not been governed upon tilos consequence of the derangement of the banking sYs tent here, which led to the hank restrictions of 1797. ttencieirt and rendered it necessary in Ireland a t t h a t t i me . So that, priciples, but it became very material for him, riot only as undoubtedly, whatev e r tr a n sac ti on s occurred between 1797, a matter of fact to stat e t hi s , b ut to ma k e use of it after however Gentle- wards for the accusations and the restriction of cash payments, and . • purpose of repelling many of the Bank men might c ons id er t h at t h at suspension o f cant payments and of answering many of time arguments against the . was prejudi c i a l to th e p u bli c i n t e rests, the Bank of Ireland of I re l an d : b ecause the objection raised to the procee • was not responsible for . d transactions , The restriction ings of th e B ank of Ireland on the part of a those ho these misconduct or imprudence of wished to end its exclusive issue, was not that Was not in consequence of any of put an to whole theirs—it was the necessary consequence the measures they gave accommodation to excess, but that the that were adopted in England. Undoubtedly when the operations of commerce in Ireland were restricted by suspension ' of cash payments took Place, there was a very reason of the supposed menopoly, and that, consequently ,the great extension in banking accommodation in [Mend, not people of Deblin were sufferers riot from an excess of accom only on the part of the Bank of Ireland. but on the part of mo i • from dfi nency of banking accommodatton• anon, but a e e A t various private banks, then established and in 1804 Now, the only thing he had to complain of in the con du ct the great failure which to -, k place in Connaught of the -Bank of Ireland was, not that it gave too much, bu of Lord French's Bank, and several other u L , :MKS, too little, a ccommodation. It was the most preposterous caused ruin and dismay throughout a great aertion of Ir - al ism that could possibly enter into the mind of man, to land. In 1820 the House was aware that the private ha iks suppose that the contrary was the case. It was true that had considerably multiplied and 11 failed in a few months, the Bank might be tempted to extend its circulation too and the entire circulation of the South of Ireland, as well es far, and give a fictitious stimulus and excitement to prices, other parts of Ireland. was destroyed by these failures, He but the public might rely upon it that every bank carry believed, with the exception of three or four, and certainly ing on business with a view to its own profit would give five, all the banks in Ireland failed, and the Bank of Ireland accommedatioe to as great en extent as they could carry ,T was left to carry on th e b us i ness of the country. On the it with safety, and the only apprehension was, not that ia . failure of these banks a new system w as f oun d necessary , wo uld not give sufficient accommo d at i on , b ut l est it m ight and was introduced into Ireland by Lord Liverpool. An go too far. And yet .the whole of the complaint, and the