The Sun. — London, England, 1803-03-16 00:00:00

FAL PARLIAMEN 7. HOUSE OF LEERS. TITESDAy, MARCH IS. Tx v. various Bills before the House were forwarded in their respective stages. The Irish Revenue Perpetuation Bill was brought up from the Commons by Mr. ALLXAWDZR and others, and read a first time, _ _ Messrs. ElWAftes NOEL, GORE LANC,TON. and STU...- ART brought up a Private Bill each from the Commons, which were respectively read a first time. , The Order being read for the Committee on the Prince of Wales's Annuity Bill, the -House accord. ingly resolved into the same, Lord WALSINGHAM in the Chair. On the first Clause being read, and the Question put, The Earl of,CAR LISLE rose and observed, that after his deelaratiol . l of yesterday, respeCting his intention, not, under the present circumstances, to bring for Ward any distinft proposition on the sub. .jest, it could not be expeCted that he should. have to trouble theirlordships wit h any detail thereon, the more especially as the Bill was now before a Com. inittee of the whole House, in which stage of it, .no efficient alteration could be proposed.. With re. sped to the subjea r , however, he would then stale generally, that he retained those opinions upon it which he had formerly avowed—that with a refer_ epee to thC:prestint traniaaion in particular, he was of opinion the Illuirrious Personage who was the objets of it, was as ill-used as - any man could be . . The Bill before the Committee would toe voila - live of those effeets which would disap point hopes held out, and frustrate expeCtations formed. Without adverting to the personal feelings of His Royal Highness upon such an oeczsion, it was now,'he said,7known that the public expeAation: or seeing him resume that State and Splendor with, ivhich it wets agreed on all hands, the Heir.APpa. rent to the Crown should be invested, would be entirely disappointed. He thought the question of the Arrears of the Dutchy of Cornwall, should be legally decided the general subjeet would then come before Parliathent in a clearer point of view, and they would be the better able to judge what course to take. The Bill before the Committee, would, be "contended, not afford that relief to His Royal Higheess which it professed—that_ 11. Justrious Personage would be -left by it, at least for some time to come, in that degraded, nay, al. most ignominious situation, in which, for a consider. üble time, he would be placed. Royal High. tress, it appeared, was so eircumscinced, with re spcet to claims upon him, that the Bill could not have even its proposed circa, for at least one year and a hair. Ministers had much better have waited until the period - of the liquidation of those claims, when they • e-Antltt have effedually cork: forward ; but th o ugh, notwithstanding he felt himself called upon to' offer these general observations, yet his principal motive for Iroubling their Lordships was, ,to explain an expression which he Made use of yes terday,.,which then seemed to make some impres. stem upon a Noble Earl, and `which appeared to be since, in some !legree, , misapprehended.. Recur. ring Again to .the subject of his former animadver sions, the , Noble Earl observed, that the measure under the consideration of the•Comnilittee, was like all the Other measures of ,the ,present Administra. t w o, weak, ineffieicstt, futile • in fad, a hall'rnea. sure ; inefficacious as to its objet}, and falling short of its avowed end. He then adverted to his language' of yesterday :—he had, he observed, ex. pressed his opinion, that the Country was in a, peti , lints state, and he would repeat, that the Country, under all its present circumstances, was perilously situated :—this idea, however, was provisional. We were to lie regarded as on the eve of experien cing au Invasion, at least, little less than such a state of things was to he inferred from the tenor of the. two R-yal Communications to Parliament.— Thus circumstanced, and when it was considered, that the Kuidanee of the Affairs of the Country W4B kft in the hands of the present Ministers, its situa. sion could be-truly said to be no other than perilous: the - Puhlic, he asserted, did not look up with con. fidence to the talents and abilities of the present Ministers—the National Spirit, or the Public could not he called forth ' or efficaciously ex-. ied, under their auspices. Were men of emment talents, and • real abilities, 'as Statesmen, called to the guidance of Affairs, the situation of the Court. try would be diametrically opposite to that in which it was placed at present ; from a state of dismay and despondence, it would pass to one of hope and exultation ; Public confidence and energy. would revive, and we may bid daance to all mite efrorts:of Fcancq, anti laugh-her menaces to scorn. W may 'then say, in the concise but comprehensive language of the Poet, '' Come take !" which lie feared we could not.do at present; These were his feelingq when he had used, perhaps tastily, t h e expression, that the Country was in a perilous state : under her present Rulers, he • feared is was; but under the guidance of those great Charaders he hail in contemplation, its st4te would be foll of well. founded lope, and justly. codden't expeaation.. v • Lord PELHAM' rose to answer SOtlit pliserya. rintia which fell from the. Noble Earl, 44 greater part of which, however, were obviously ikrelcvant to the soOje.et' before the . Committee. With ri- Sra to the,affAirs cif the Illustrions Personage, who was the objet of the 4111,. the Noble E a rl seetue d to be under some misconception, and, itt i ng w hi c h, th e N.;ble Seeretary was neees. satily led into some detailed exposition of tlau nifair, from she time when the lira arrangements were niade in 1795 to the present moment-; which train of Circumstances- being already knowo to our. Readers, we deem it unnecessary to• repeat them. Ily the operation of the Bill of 1795, the Debts of His Royal _HiglinesS would not, his Lord Ship ob . t;crved, be liquidated:bthre the end of four years, instead of the expiration of a year and' an half, ad misconceived by the Noble .I:4=arl. Much stress seemed to be laid on what' fell from Noble Lorthi Supposed to be in babits of communication, 'with His Royal' Hielrieis, but he could state, that as fir as hit; owp-Aservation went, the Prince himself see6ed to be tery well satisfied with what was pro.. robed by His Majesty's Ministers. The operation of th,- present 80l was to restore to His Royal High_ tiess tine full possession of that income, which, alter much deliberation, and discussion, was deemed ti the the year Y 795 to be sufficient for maintaining the dignity and splendor of the Heir Apparent,...;.. With resped to the other considerations, to which. the Noble Earl's observations were dire led, he would only say, that assertions, however strongly made, did not amount to proof, and that the feel. ings and opinions of a whole Country, or the Pub lic, were not to be colleded from the sentiments of a - few individuals. His Majesty's Ministers held opinions on that. point, very different 'from those held by the Noble Earl. He denied that they had for. kited or lost the confidence of the Country. As one of those Ministers, he could say, that he had !Icier courted the possession of the Office he had then the Honour to hold. It had been his lot to he placed in situations of great public trust and importance, in which situations, as well as in his present, he al ways exerted his honest endeavours to perform his duty to his Sovereign, and to his Country, in a pro per, fair, and unexceptionable -manner. That he had filled offices ofitnportance, in situations of ex treine'peril and danger, fully to the approbation of those by whom he was entrusted, he assumed no personal merit, for it was his duty so to ad. The Noble Earl, and the House, should recoiled, that at the tune His Majesty's present Ministers were called to their Offices, the Country was in a state of unprecedented difficulty and peril ; and the Noble Earl .would do well to recoiled the situation in Which the Country was left, by those men of great abilities, and eminent talents, when they had re. , tired from their offices. The Ear/ of CrIRL/SLE, in explanation, ob. served, that what be had said relative to the sohjeet regularly before the Committee he merely offered as an independent Member of Parliament, actuated by no other motives than those arising from a sense of his duty ro the Public and the Country. That he had no communications with the Illustrious Per. sonage on the occasion, whom, the Noble Earl re peated, had been ill-treated in the present instance, and was, in cad, left by Ministers in that de graded and comfortless situation from which they professed to extricate him: With respeet to what had fallen from the Noble Secretary of State rela rive to the situation of affairs at a former period, he, deemed it then unnecessary to expatiate. Though a great deal, he observed, might in ordi nary cases proceed upon presumption, yet when the safety and existence of an Empire was at stake, such grounds of action should be exploded. With record to the charader and conduct of a certain great and Illustrious Man, which not only by him, but try the , Nation in general, was regarded with feelings of gratitude and admiration, he would aver of that reat man, he meant. Mr. PITT, that he was the Political Saviour of his Country :—this great man was, with others, accused and suspeEted by Mr. . Bonaparte of being concerned in the affair ofwhat ht Called the infernal Machine, for taking away his life. Of this accusation, he believed, every honest map would acquit him i, but there was another Ma_ chine, he could not say ap Infernal, but a very mis. chievous one, which, (so we understood his Lordship), possibly he had some concern in, namely, the forma. tion of the present Ministry, whose conduct had abUndantly compensated Bonaparte for whatever in. jury he might have sustained, from the machibutioni he at first alluded to. The LARD CHANC4LLOR..onswered the re. marks of the Noble Earl shortly, but with a consi derable degree of Spirit and animation. He first observed upon the evident irregOlarity of the greater part of what had fallen from the Noble Earl. Llpon the measure itself before the Committee, he had ap plied the general expressions of weak, inefficient, and an lialf.measure—snch as, according to the Noble Earl, were all the measures of the pre. sent miserable Administration of the Country.--;. However, .with respett to the Bill regularly under discussion, he would tell his Lordship and the Com. mittee, that it was such, .as Ministers, upon a full consideration .of the stibjett with a reference to the situation of the Prince himself, and their,duty to the Public, in which view of the subjed, that situation made a part, thought it adviseable and proper to propose. That it was .an half measure would be contradiaed by the very . tenor and spirit of His Majesty's Message; and the Noble Earl should be aware 'that there' was more real magnanimity and genuine spirit in firmly ad. hering,. against the opinion olothers, to a,mea. sure, which upon due .deliberation, they decided upon as good and serviceable, than there was in leaning to what the precipitation. of others may wish to be tiene. With respeCt to the general. question of confidence: to Ministers, he thought precisely with ,his Noble Friend, who spoke second in the Debate ; and personally to himself he . had 'to . ' observe, that the litvour of his. Sovereign had cle. vated him to that situation, which certainly he' had. nut coveted, hut which at the same time, he thought it his duty to his Sovereign--to others, and to his Country to accept of, and Etc hoped he had honestly and ,conscientiously 'performed his duly therein, while he held it. 'With regard to the. Noble Earl's explanation of his language of yesier. day, he would only say, that he hoped the liistration had shoulders broad enough to bear that and even more. 'Much was'said of the confidence of the Country, but that Ministers were not destitute of it was plain; by the almost unanimous appioba. Lion of :their measures, by that Constitutional on. gan of. the Nation, the Parliament—these measures. ivere founded in their sense of what they deemed the best interests of their Country ;, and, by the decisions of that Assembly„ with respeCt to the wisdOm or spirit of their Fondues, they would wish to be judged, and not by the observations of idUals. The Clauses and Provisions of the. Bill were then arced to without farther observation from the Comtoittee, and the House resuming, ordered the Report to be received to.mc►rrow. On the question for the second' reading of the Trish Postage Duties Bill, :Lord AUCia AND called the attention ,of their Lordships to the effeel of a particular Clause in the Bill, which, notwithstanding the evidently intended operation . of the Bill, would, toil certain extent, go to an internal regulation, with respect to this Country. His Lordship referred to the impossibility of reading the Irish Bills thoroughly as they came up; but the arid of the Clause lie alluded to, strut him so forcibly that he should call their Lordships' attention to it, when the Bill should go JO a Committee ; and he ,doubted not but the ex_ planationi he should then give, would bring their Lordships perfectly to coincide with him. The observations of the Noble Lord gave rise to an explanatory conversation of some length, between the Duke of Noa Foot, on whoi suggestion the clause was read, and Lords AUCKLAND, PELHAM, and the Earl of LtMIR tet. As this conversation related principally to the nature of these Offices in Ireland, the holders of which it was proposed to exempt, and as the clause itself is to be regularly discussed in the committee, we forbear to recite what passed in the present instance. F The Bill was then read 'a second time, anti as we could colle&,- committed for to-morrow, • The Order,being read for their Lordships going into a Committee on the Bill_ for the more effeetual Prevention of frivolous and vexatious Arrests, &c. the House accordingly resolved itself into the same, Lord WALSINGHAM in the Chair. The leading Clauses and Provisions of the Bill were then discussed by the Committee. The principal speakers were Lords &Lax aostoirou and AINANLEY, and the Esti of.Motaw. In the course of the , observations that were made, the Noble Earl seemed, for the present, to relinquish his idea of raising the lowest amount for which . Arrests were to take place to the sum of zol. deem. ing it under the present circumstances of the case, preferable to let it remain at the original amount. He also stated his intention to propose that after the amendMents should be made in the Bill, and the blanks filled up, it should be printed, and let lie over until the return of the Judges to town, when it should be recommitted, &c. The amendments were made principally on the suggestions of the Noble Earl..and Lord &Law. BOROUGH, and On the - Motion of the latter one of the clauses of the Bill was negatived;and afteiwartis supplied by.a proposition of his own. Thi LORD CHANCELLOR shortly. observed, that as the Bill was to be recommitted, he should not then trouble their Lordships upon the subjeft; it had certainly undergone already much serious investigation, and probably would still farther be discussed ; fur his ow.n part he was ready to co. ,operate in really ameliorating that part of our legal system, and in supporting the Bill, as far as a re gard to the genuine interests of the administration of justice would warrant. The Bill being gone through. by the Committee, the House resumed, and ordered the report to be received to-morrow.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. TUEbDAY, MARCH 15. THE SPEAKER took the Chair at Three o'clock, and went through a great deal of private business. Several rapers relAtive to the Stamp Duties were present. ed, which were ordtred to lie on the Table. Mr. Di CKE P SON, jilt). brought uli a Report from the Se. led Committee appointed to try the merits of the Heretbrd. shire Median, stating, that JOHN GXICRS COTTER ELL, Esq. was not duly elected, but that Sir Gao. CORNEWALL was duly eleCiedto serve a a Member for the , abOvemtrned-Coun. ty, and that the Petition was not ftivolous or vexatious. A new Writ was then nrdered for the County of Hereford, in the MOM Of 3. COTTpELLL; Esq. Sir MA TT it tw WHITE fIIDLEY presented a Petition front john Hall, who was m the custody of the Serjlant at Arms, for prevarication on his examination as a Witness before the Select Committee appointed to try the merits of the Great Grimsby Illetition. OH ;Ile Petition being read, which was expressive of great contrition for the offence he had committed, Sir MATTHEW WHIT/ RfpLvy moved, that John Hall should be brought before the House tomorrow an discharg.. ed ; which was agreed to, and tale Petition was ordered to lie on the Table. The Order of the Day Waf read for taking into consideration the Grand Juation Canal Bill. Sir JOHN ANDERSON *lid, he begged leave to cal) the attention of the House to a part of the Bill now under their consideratioo; he did not mean to make any objection to the sum which the Bill provides for the completion of this great under taking; but it contained a clause which went to enable the Contrnittee to dispossess any mo of his house or land, for the gratification of their pleasure or convenience ' • this he considered highly arbitrary, as it gave the Committee the power to do as they might think proper, with the property of . whom they pleased. He therefore moved, that the clause to the died h,e had just stated, he left out. This amendment being agreed to, the Bill was ordered to be ,engrossed. •Mr. ALEXANDER . brought up the Report of the Expiring Laws Bill, which was read and agreed to, and the Bill ordered W be read a third time to. morrow. Mr. CORRY moved for leave to bring in a Bill lo continue the R.estridinns on the Payment of Cash at the Rank of Ireland. He.observed,_ that this Bill.geew nut of a similar measure which had been adopted in this country.--Leave The Irish Customs Bill was read a third time, and passed. Several Members had leave of absence from in disposition. C. DICKENSO~r gave notice, ..that he' should *love for leave, •to.morrow, to bring .a Bill ,to SUITSIId PTOSCCtitlettS.4gainst - Clergymen, ;under the Attof Henry VIII. The House resolved itself into a Committee upon the Irish Militia Bill. • Mr. WIt'KH44I moved the insertion of a Clause, authorizing the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to cause a sum, not exceeding four guineas, to be paid to each person inrolling himself in the Militia of Ire land, Mr. ELLMTrequested to know, whether this, Bill w•as intended .to extend to every part of the. Militia of . Ireland, or only, to apply to a particular part of that Country ? Mr. WICKHAM said, this Bill was brought in, to authorize the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to raise Militia.men at four : guineas, in consequences: of the difficulty which_ had been experienced in getting persons ,to serve, when chosen' by Ballot y at the same time, it left the Lord Lieutenant the power to get them at a smaller Bounty if possible :. he how. 'ever, had the privilege to offer every induceirieni to persons to enter. _ Mr. ELLIOT observed, that he thought it his duty to make a few observations on t h is Bill be fore it passed into a Law : he thought it would tend to subvert the Recruiting Service of Ire. land, He was not an enemy to the Establi4hment or a Militia in that Ceuntre;. There was a prat. cal difference between England and Ireland, as to • the formation of the Militia. In this Country, men are chosen by ballot ; but in Ireland,. it has been formed and concluded both by ballot and boun ty. He thought, and indeed experience had taught him, that if a bounty of four guineas were giveti to induce men to enter into the, Militia, it,avotdd operate as a great injury to the Recruiting Service, particularly as so large a oumber of men as 4.e,oCa „ were to be raised. Mr. IVICKHAM said he was sure that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ewen-) had not taken the trouble to look over the Bill, otherwise he would not now have made those observations on it. It was almost unnecessary to' state 'the manner and method adopt ed in this Country to raise Militia-men„ as every Gentleman in the House knew there was but one. But in Ireland the same method would not effed the establishment of a Militia: and he did not hesitate to say, that the Militia had not been raised in that Country by ballot. Ia Ireland it was the province of the Lord Lieute nant to procure Militiamen in every .way that.wae honourable and just, and it was found from expe. rience, that the methods tried had been in some mea-, sure defedlve, which has given cause to the. pre sent Bill, which Bill will extend the power of the Lordmay ia be give eu'en i a n n c t lin to edto figa better bounty t~ti of their Liberty and Laws. The Learned Gentl eman had observed, that he was an advocate for raising the. for the pro ttoe,apei Militia by Ballot, and that be thought a Boun t y, , of rsans four guineas would be hurtful to the Recruiting who Service ; but he would beg the Hon, Gentleman to consider, that if the Militia was raised by %Hot, - Substitutes would be consequently got .at a heavy price ; by that moans, Men would sooner wait fut . s offers of this >kind than enter into .the Regular Ser vice. He art convinced, that the present measure was calculated to benefit the Militia Force of Ire. land. Mr. ELLIOT said, he did not think it a mea- • sure calculated to augment the Militia of Ireland ; helhought -if men were not raised by ballot, they could not be raired.st all. The SECRETARY a t WAR said, he could not help complaining that the Hon. Gentleman hag thought proper to enter into an examination of the Militia Laws of Ireland, upon an incidental cepa° of this kind,, particularly at the present moment , when every exertion was necessary to complete the force of the Empire. Whether partieulat i • parts of the Militia Laws were good or b a d, it was now the duty of every man to make the hest of it, and it was rather singular that the Hon, Gentlenvwz Who was one of the first to sound the trumpet ()s alami, should now take an opportunity of disl heartening the public mind with respell to the public force. It would certainly have been tnote proper for the. Hon. Gentleman, when the other Bill was brought forward, in. December last, to. come forward and to have stated his, general . objec, tions to the measure; -but he then sat pettedly sie lent, and did not offer one single objettion ;' he now, when it was necessary to amend that Bill 10 'some particulars, the Honourable Gentleman cattle forward with general objections to the whoio of the system. The Honourable .Gentlems 3 must know, that the'. 14ilitia of Ireland, !ma never been, nor could .lbw be raised, entirehr by Ballot. Why chell• did he. n ot bring forward Bill to correCteliat .evil? It had, however, been, suffered to go on to'the — present time, end was. therefore necessary to make the. .best of it. The' objet of the preseot P l itt was o n ly to enable the Lord Lieutenant to grant a greater Bountyt if it should be. found necessary; and to coetinue a 111 1 i ~ which would expire in a short time, to the en d or the year : and if the Bount -did not exceed foo t Guineas, it certainly would not m a ter ially affed•the Recruiting Service, if, indeed ; it would at all in. - terfere with it. s;r L. PARSONS said, there appeared two [ Ante for consideration—ethe one was, whether the me-. thod adopted by this Bill was Constitutional ? And • the other was, whether the way of getting Men hi . a Bounty, would answer the ptte pose of the Coun try better than by Ballot ? He thought with the 'Gentleman who preceded him, that the present Bill would answer every purpose. the Country could Wish for, and. give a much greater satisfadion to the pere sons who served in the Militia. He mild assu re the Committee,. that chusing persons by Ballot, very often rendered the Officers very unpleasant, as they had frequently to associate with Men, whom theY would not hive taken among them, if such a Bill as the present had been in force. • Mr. FITZGERALD said, that he approved Os' . • the present Bill, and thought it was a much better method of raising men than by ballot, as it w ould' do-away that trouble and ;expence which attended anlndividual in getting a substitute. General ,TARLETON expressed his high appro.', bation of the Bill now - Under discussion; whic" would tend to facilitate the getting of men in Ire land. He well knew the state of 'the Irish Militi a, . and was proud to say, he had the honour tO come enand a Regiment of Militia in that Country, who had given ample proof of their loyalty and afreaion • . to their King, and who were ati honourable example dander Of a Soldier ; and ho .of courage and every requisite t hat can adorn the hoped that the Mili• tia of every County in the Empire, would she w the same desire to proemit from the attacks of an Enemy. Mr. ELLIOT said, he thoUght that four guineas, . was too great a sum 'to give tor - men, as it w citll4 add a very heave~rr expense to the Country ; with a less bounty the Lord Lieutenant might increase the ' Militia to double the number mentioned in the Bill. He Could,not but express- his disapprobation of the measure, as he thought it would not teed - to serve the Country.. • The SIC/MARY at 'Walt said a few words id' answer to Mr. kw or. The ATTORNEY GENERAL of IRELANP said, he could not but express his astonishment at. • • the objections made' by. the Hon.. Gentleman (Sr% Et,Lio7) who sat with him in another Parliantent; and he must be permitted to call to the-recolleetion i: of the Hon. Gentleman, the time h e pettedly agreel to the very principle he now reprobates. A Bill went through the Itish House of Commons, gr anting the sum of six pounds to every man who woul d