The Sun. — London, England, 1803-08-12 00:00:00

un -- Ic 1101 Flfiretl:riipers really 101" Cllstrum!itili, alit; the Country People coining in. by preconeerted agreement ? If all the circumstances were taken to. g6her, did they nor pr9ve the - existence of a Con sPi,racy of great depth and breadth ? The mere assassination of Lord Kilwarden might have been the sudden ad of a feW traitors, but combining all the circumstances together, no man could say that the C , verninent - were not sorpriled,- or that the Capital was not in danger. It -halt been- said that the guards were doubled, as a measure of precaution ; hut he was well informed on this subjedi that drat uas not a Measure of extraordinary precaution, but that it had been done, and was constantly done upon much more trifling occasions besides, to'say that a measure was equal to what was adopted, upon such • . and such an occasi.)n was nothing, the question wai, Was it enough ? If the Insurredion had broken out a t midnight, instead of breaking out, as it fortunate ly did, three hours before, would any one say that the Capital might not have been one continued scene of horror and massacre ?" Every, one knew that the. Insurrection and the Castle were on .one side, and the Barrack's on the other. If it lt-rtd not been for. the delay occasioned by the assassination :of Lord Kilwarden, the next step would have been to the ' Castle, where he understood there was nothing like a sufficient paid. In one sense, the Irish Govern.. went were notsurprized, as they were continually, • -receivin g information upon the subject, bur,• as in .this Country, where the warning voice of the -ap. : ptoaching danger was . treated with disregard, and those Who talked of that danger held out as alarm. 'lsTs,.tio in Ireland all infoitnation upon. the $111)- jea of t h e intended Insurredion was treated with disregard ; and even a Genera) who gave some in formation. was. treated in such a manner as to induce him. t o demand a Court-Martial upon his conduft, - vhich, hoWever, was not granted. The Govern. mem of :Iceland._ would not believe there was any danger whilst the mine was digging under their feet ; they sat in the most serene tranquillity whilst the explosion Was preparing. The con. • sequences of which it was very fortunate' were no worse. It had been said that, he. wished to .• 'make .people, feel their danger throuth the medium of their fears, he knew dm) other way, they must • • • take'lt as they chose, it might have a different if_ feCt upon different people ; but he believed that the People of this Country would fight most manfully against the danger which threatened them. The syjtem however o f H on . G ent l eme n on th e other side of the House, was quite the reverse ; they said, rdo not tell them of their danger, for they wilt he frightened out of their wits, and at lase they. were obliged to confess the danger. • Uron this subjeet they were much obliged to' himself and those, with Whom hi acted, f or stat i ng b roa dl y a nd open ly the danger -to which .we were , exposed, it was 'like throwing School.boys into the water ,to make them swim. Ministers . hid decried him anti' his Friends as a set of alarmists, and had then delayed the mea. sures necessary for -the defence of the Country to - so late a period, that it was to be feared they would come too late. The object 'of the Motion was , • onlyto talatam information as to the . state of IrelaOd. On the same principle that a Council of War"was wished , for, so he thought - a' Cormnittee of that liouie might sit very usefully, in the interval be. tweet). the prorogation and their next Meeting, for the , purpose of considering what had been, and. what was Ow state of Ireland. He was sure that such a Committee, from the materiali which Might be af. forded them, might Make a 'Report against the next Meeting of Parliament, well worthy their at tention. He therefore gave his support to the Liao lion. Si;• ,RORERT ; , WILLIAMS, said he was now well convinced, that when the guards in Dub. lin were doubled, and the Garrison under arms, •that the Government were not surprised. He had , • been seven years in. Ireland and had never during that time seen the gtiards doubled. Colonel COLE said, that every Irish Gtntleman in the :House must feel that the' Irish' -Government had been :very remiss. , He was sure that no man Ivished more than. himself to support Government at the preieot crisis, .but the Government or Ireland . Ought to have paid more attention to the ; informa tion they ,received from .the Gentlemen of that Country, ,As to the preCauti on o f doubling the w guard s , i t as wholly insufficient, and- he knew-it to be a faa, that when the Yeomanry came to re. teive their artns there was no ammunition to'give them : he thought that a Government who sported With 'the lives of the loyal inhabitants of the Coun. try, deserved the censure of that . flou`se; • • Ti' CIIeIiV,CELL >R of the EXCIIAQPER'said, Ile :should almost have supposed that the Right Hon. Gentleman •felt a little sore at the observdtiona which had lv..en made upon his condust %.vith,tesPed to the Message relative to Ireland. He might in. deed suppose that the Ri g h t H on. G entleman - Was a little s.q , e tipot that subject, as scarcely a day passed' that the' Right Hon; Gentleman did not make art attack Government, and at the•same time tit plan) some fornv.,r attack. • :The Right-Han "Gen.. p,. tlemao -was however aware that no,pradical purpose . [ could ensue' froth agreeirtg to tbe present Motion, and .had then recommended -a Standing-Committee !t• • - . 2 duriduringa Prorog at i on , a 'species of Con—unitteewhich it was well known could not it without ;Parliament, :and for which there was no, precedent whatcv an Mt of r , er. Before the Bills were brought for.. • ward relative •ta, Irelaltd, a Statement was made from His Majesty, which,.-was a complete 1t 3 1 , s fiestlon for the voti ng o f t h ose measures; a rodamation was laid on the . Table, stating the, 'existence of a Rebellious C against Conspiracy :Majesty's Government ; and he asked the House 'ether there was not a sufficient proof of the ex .iitenCe of a Traitorous Conspiracy ? The House ' •, were then' called upon to adopt measures for the -tafety of the loyal inhabitants of Irelana ; the, ight Hon. Gentleman. who comphtined of being VA"::v.hatged with att em p t i ng to cre4tte d elay, t h en wish ,td not only to postpone the measure, bat to delay twenty.four hours even before they addressed His MA. • testy in answer to the 'Message. The scruples urged then by the-Right Hon. Gentleman were ex•• ttemely ilktimed, and likely to be. produffive of the woritt consequences • dispatch at that period • might fof fts ety the. Lountry, and delay might be 4 estruilion. He,would ask whether the deci-, *ion of l ) at.tame nt upon that occasion did not_give ;;;;;; ‘3. , %. • '7= - 7 ;;;; • • culaily to the inhabitants 'of Dublin. 'h t n vesper``} to the' Message which had been allu,led, to,, which was delivered to the. Irish Parliament on the 24. th of May, 1798, they did not take t'wenty.four hours to Co9Siddr'cif it; but Voted that it should be forth.. With taken_ into consideration. The .Right Hon. Gentletriao had said, that the Go:I-meta of Ire 'arid and of this - Co . untry were taken by surprize. No opinion '6'o been stated by'HiS.Majesty's .Government,- that' Ireland .was in •a state of safety, he only stared that oliere!,was. no necessity to recur to those measures which had been before adopted. Ministers were hot so weak as to suppose that the contagion which bad ihil'aed sd large a mass of the people of Itelandovirs etrtirely dissipated, - but Ivhen they, considered how much in the conrse,of the last two .yearS, , the state of Jreland had' been athelio. .rated and improved even beyond the most san guine expeEtation, and • that the. people .15f that. Country had had the opportunity of observing that-in another Country a: military despotism.had; supplanted all those visionary ideas of liberty athi 'equality which had been cherished by so many in Ireland . ; they were justified io 'imagining that those persons would . take a lesson from what they had oh. served, and he . was convinced that many of them had taken a lesson, and a very useful lesson The 'GoVeromeht of Ireland were not taken by surprize, •as it had been alledged, and the measure of doubling the Guards was fully sofficient,as a measure of pre caution, The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that no other orders were given 'till midnight : this . ss's not the Eta; whai the orders were, it was not material to state, but they could have - been acted upon if the continuance of the losurreetioo had rendered 'it necessary. Information had cer. tainly been received .by the Government of Ire land, respecting the intended Insurrection, but they also received intelligence of a different nature, and lite) , were to judge as to what credit or weight was to be given to the information which came to their hands. The Right Hon. Gentleman •had alluded to Col. Despard, and had called it 'an insulated -Conspi ,l racy; but the Proclamation of the ROsels.in Ireland 'proved that it was not so, as they alluded to an at. ,tempt made in this Capital which had failed. The Government of ;Ireland would have been charged with credulity, if they had stated they believed what the}' knew to be true. , That Government'had been charged' with dilatoriness, but they were to considerhow they could best 'catty into tired the great object of making an example Of Traitors : it was the , great duty ot Government to confider when they ought tim e ly to i nter p os e, an d when measures ot vigour and energy ought to be resortedro. If they had not aeled as they did, the calamity wo u ld h ave been ten times 'mote dreadful ; they did not •lisre gard measures of precaution, for they took a ll t h ose that were necessary. Theßight Hon Gentleman thought it necessary that th e details . respecting land should be laid before the House ; he did not re .colled. that that Right Hon. Gentleman fOrmed a part of H4' MasiestY's- GOvernment or that he brought forward any details respeding the state of, Ireland notwithSthndint the 'strong measures then proposed, and although repeated Motions were made for that purpose that Right ;Hon.: Gentleman then resistedall was of Inquiry , o,,peditig Ireland-but it was not Merely reSpeding Iretana, but many' other circumstances relative to: which .the Right Hon. Gentleman, doting the seven years he held a seat in His Majesty's Councils,resisted all inquiry whatever; disastrous expeditions oh which there might be ou the :face of them misconduti were equally %Jellied to be ir.quircd Into. Was not all ,inquiry resisted with. respect to the expedition to Quiberon, in which of the. Country we re so muc h i ntereste d a th n e d i s 'e o ti m i!'gs much hurt I -He did not say by any means, that the Right Hon. Gentleman improperly resisted inquiry in these insta nces , b ut h e on l y a dd uce d the coodud Right Hon: of the Gentleman upon those occasions,. to prove that that Right Hon. Gen*. man was not exactly the Person who .ought now'.„ser . call for inquiry. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that the Irish Government was inert, which' he denied, and that the Government of this Coon. try refused, to listen to the coercing voice ot danger, but measures had been taken fvotn the .moment of signing the Treaty of- Amiens :to place the Country in a. state of security, and since the ,Message of the Bth of "March measures. had been, adopted for the Defence of. the Country Which were ;completely unexampled in the history of the Country. The Right Eon. Gentlentan - had said he had only told truth with respect to the danger of the Country ; but there were different modes of telling truth, and certaioly.that was not .the best mode of, telling.. the. truth to magnify the resources ,nf the Enemyond to depreciate our own. With tespeft to the Motion itself, it has. been said that this would probably be the last day of the Session for bus(n,ss, and yet they were, called upon to ask for infOrMaiten, front which no possible g ood could arise. Not only that, but from the 'oroduetion which great &tiger must arise, as'it was impossible to;g•iible it in the : Manner stirred by the Right'HOn. Gentleman. Ihe Hon. Gentleman (Mr. HuTcrtri4- d . SoN) had himself stated the obje of his Motion to be prospediVe, and it was evident that a ..standing Committeedikethat alluded to, could not be esiab„ lished w ithoUr art Ati of Parliimeot,irom whenee . no benefiCial ,iffeda could arise. if the House thought 'the Government of Ireland capable of taking thee, sures for the safety of that Country,' let that Go, veitiment .take . these . measures which it thought most adviseable, and it bhould always be recolleded that 'iii cases of Conspiracy-measures of haste were 1 not adVisable, as they prevented. the guilty from being brought to that puitishinent which they tie. served. Being convinced that the House were satisfied, that the present Motion ought not 'to be carried 'into circa, he should give. it his decided negative. s . . Mr. WINDUAM explained several points his speech, in which he conceived that he had been ..misunderstood h the CUAtiC F I.LOR oldie XC ER ; he partichlarly a ll u ded to , t h e Expetiition to Quiberon; and said, that*, far; from deprecating any inquiry upon that subkd, it .was one tilioa! which :belied always called upon Gentlemen, and dared them , to enter into the inquiry. The CHANCELLOR of ,the EXC . :IIEQ(2 begged leave to state one lad which he. had nrltit ted in his former speech ; it had been stated that aN4•ll4.Uay V 3•{~N !• •• a•• • v 7 r .~•w• •~~v ~ii~V Conmthtcial . Agents, 11ad been grrested Irebind; this w is not lite ease; because tlmernment had 'pre. vente,l thost persons from going la, the place of their destination; • Lora L'Aoi-Lv FACII explained, said'he did not host , of this Motion before he came into the House, lint having heard. it, he was--determined to_give it his support., He, by no means stgreed with the Noble Secretary of State that, this Motion was objeBitsnable becaitae it could have no pradieal and immediate effeCl,it ap. geared to him that such a MotiOn as the present was perfealy er ; and he also contended, that the Hon. Gentleman who brought it forward was per_- feOly justified4n his , opening speech in going into thoic general observations for which he had been so much censured: . .The.Hon.Gentletnan then pro ceeded to enter at considerable length into -a de fence of his Right -Hon. Friend (Mr. WINDHAM) rartklliallY for his conduit an the day when the Message was delivered respeding Ireland. .He then adverted to the assertion of Mr. WINDHAM, that the Government of Ireland had suffered itself to ne 'surprised this he contended was stridly true„ and - , they were the more culpable because they had.not only received information froiii dif. ferent quarters, but they had the evidence of fatis to warn them of their approaching danger. He, however, did not °Neel to the measures which had been adopted with regard to Ireland, he , only COM plairied that they had been adopted without sufficient information having been laid before Parliament. He repeated the charges which he had before advanced against His Majesty's'Ministers of procrastination in their Measures for Public Security, and he instanced a Circular Letter which was sent lalt week from the Admit:thy to the Captains of the Sea Fencibles on the Coast, desiring theffi to transmit to the Ad miralty an accnunt of the Soundings and Bearings of the Coast -within their Command : this was certain- , ly very proper, but was information , of which the Admiralty ought -to have been in poasessian tong ago. He denied that he, or his Right Hen. Friend, had ever endeavoured to depress the spirit of the People ;. they had not indeed flattered . .them, but they had told' them their real situation.— They hid never daubted the energy of the Peo. ple, they had complained that the Ministers had not taken nseasures to make them acquainted with the danger with which they were threaten. . ed. ' The Hanourable Gentleman then made a variety of comments Open 'the conduet of His 'Ma . jesty's Ministers, which lie censured_ very strimgly, particularly , .with reference to the conclusion of the Treaty of Amiens, and u the NegOtiation which tertninated in the rupture 'of -that Treaty.. He and ,hisTion. Friend had not taken theirsual and 'popular ground of attack against 'Ministers, viz. that they were extending the Prerogative of the Crown ; they only complained of then for not having displayed' sufficent energy. With regard to the Motion before the House—if the 'infOrmation called for in this Motion could be granted with safety, lie sincerely. hoped it would not be refused. • The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, it certain. ly was not his. intention to follow the Learned Gen tleman through the whole of his mull ilaripos speech, because it seethed as if it had been the intention of the Learned Gentle Man in his speech, at 'the con. , elution of, the Session' sto sum up the whole of the Debates which had occurred during the Sessions There were a variety of subjeals upon Which the Hoff:Gentleman had commented, which appeared to him 50i have not 'even , the - most—remote connexioh with the Question before the House, and upon these points he was not tempted to follow him. Nothing certainly could be snore true than that %viten a Re. hellion was suppressed, it. was , 'desirable that . -the , • Laws should revert as soon as 'possible tortheir an. rient ,channel.;• this prirciple was felt strongly by His Majesty's Ministers, illat they wished even in time of Rebellion to keep the Laws in their usual channel, except only in cases of ;lanai 'Rebellion, 1 and consequently in.the Martial Law Bill which had been passed, there was no stoppage u t t he regular course of Justice, except in those particular ca -a.!!;. A considerable part of this -discussion had. Rimed upon the manner- in which 'the late measures with regard to Ireland had:•been i vssed, and tie Right Honourable GentleMaff s cented to soppAt 110. Mo. tiOn with a view' to enable 'Ministers W. justify themselves-, for their 6ndata upon- that occ,ofion Ile was not of opinion that the Coodua of Ministers; or of Parliament, upon that occasion, ictinired any justification. With regard io the Motion 'before the House; the only ptatiieable mears of cairying it into effea would he to address the King nut ta , prorogue , Pat:iament, a . .measure which he did not suppose any Gentleman would recommend at a lie. 60.1 :like the present, when the presence of Gentle men was so'- necessary in the Country. But it had beer,.: said that a Committee, might be appointed to sit dining tbe.Prorogation, for the purpose of exa. mining into 'the state. of Itel,trel.. He wished to .know whether thesilight Hon. Geotleman meant that an Ati of Parliarneptsshould he na,ssed to appoint; such a Committee? LMr. WINDUA N 1 said he had not stated how it was to be a p r ,int c d, he had only reempmended that it should be Lione.] The only way,in: which he was aware that . such a Copmiiiee could he instituted teas, by an Aa of Pa rliament, and he would venture to say, that there was not a precedent for such meaiure on the livr. nab, of qie 148,use. There were besides great eon. stitutional difficulties in the -way of such a mea• sure, because a ComMittee so eonsti t toed : would he intl •prtrid,-nt of the po , ser of the use, and cf the Prerogative of the- Crown. The Hun. Gentleman' haw iecemmerided: this, -in order 'to she w the people of Ireland the vigilance with which thfir :664 were attcnded.tii. .131 t. it ot.tld sheW a . straogr kind of vigilance to agree to a inens:ure of this kind On; the last day of a Se , sion, v.lte'n it, could not he attended ;with ' - any ptinliical good' rfTe t ; -bur. he admitted it Was..noL, only the I eti , :d of the Session which induced him to oppose the IVILn becatisi 'tie should equallyJippose,it if brought forward on the first - day of the , SEssiion.- Intistal he "did not, . shit k th-,:t Secret Comm i ttees ought (.1 lie .;11 , + .),:int.ed on'ess when applied for b y . Government, N:›thing C,)nl,lbe. more obl7i,: , us, than that in the c;the ,01 treasonable Conspiracierk theExectitiVe G;,)vcrnment ought toile left tri itself, hccause the eae:oast pos. s in: a . „kaki 0 g 1 1 ; arste fivin the insri; wino of r vent the ptiniShment of the 'guilty, and to cu up ihe soirrees of futore information: He was far limn attributing -any such motive Hto the on. Gentlenian who brotight forward the y Motion, bet certainly its 'adoption alight have that eta. 'That_ Honourable Gentlemak had talked much of con. ciliating the people of Ireland, but it should be recolletted, that in attempting to conciliate part of t! inhabitants ef that Country,. they might run the risk of ahenatiog others. There was in that Country some as loyal t y aff and - tried BUbjeCtS as any in ,His Majesty's titans ; and it was necessary to `take care, that in . endeavouring to conciliate those whose affedions we had nor, we did not Alienate those whose 4f ledion we had; whose loyalty was fried, t rd whose energa , and bravery - had, in a m , at critical :no. merit, saved that Country. He could if it were• necessary enlarge very much, upon this subjed, which however he should not do'e he only tlnaight it right ,to throw out this consideration to those who were constantly, talking of conciliation. Con. v'inced therefore 'as he lust's that this mutton could' have no practical good cif et if adopted at this mo.. ment, convinced that it was a 'motion which ought not at any time to he agreed`to, he Should give it Ids decided opposition. Lord TEMPLE observed, that words had been attributed by other 'Hon. Gentlemen to his Right Hon. Friend, which he had never eXpressed : he talked much of pre'cedents, without recolletting ti at his Right Hon. Friend threw out the into of ap. pointinga Conimi:tee In the way of suggestiart, and not advanced in argument; and Pie lamented that the Learned Gentleman should exhaust so much time in endeavouring,to refute a hat was never se riously Meant to be ! imposed. He deprecated the idea of our alienating the aff ftions of tt ose who at present were Fat ourab'y inclined to in the at., tempt to co: ciliate those who - may feel differ, nt y . The Rebellion was by no means a Catholic one ;' the•Cottagers t and others, of.both , religions, ware coil illy insacure Item its' ravages; they were toptidy the vidims: 'it could 'not therefore be justly :ailed a Catholic Rebellion', He 'should support the motion, because he thought it tin. portant ,to know whether Goveinment was in possession of information sufficient to enable thein to ad decisively sooner than they had die r. verting to the occurrences which took place. in 'I - Mho, he observed, if G eminent had previous information,' or were aware of what was g , ing fitr. ward, they 'ought to be brought to a severe account for it; they in such a case speedily coole f o r_ ward with vigour and decision, the life of Ltd Kilwarden and many others' might have beensaeed,. He censured the precautions taken by the Govern ment of Ireland fir the security of the Capital as inadequate and, iti,ecure, Having served on gar. rison duty in that City, he bad an oy , poortunitof understanding that part of the subjed. The Mo tion was one which he thought ought to be adopted as a means of learning'. whether Government hail those means of information• whit h those who aired with s him contended they had, and 'on• account of which they 'should haVe acted very differently. Lord.. CAsTL RE EACH 3puke in explanation . of so me points whichiell, from him, and adverted to the equal; reapoosibility, its a general sense, of all the Members of His Majesty's-Goternment. Lord 'I'EMPLB saida few words in explanation as did • . • The , ATTORNEV.GENREAL,WhO rindicated self from the charge of having aspersed the Roman `Catholics of Ireland, a great number of %Omit hr believed in his conscience, to be as faithful aiA loyal Subjeib as :ittly in that part of 'the *United_ Kingdom. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH EQU ER explain. ed, that-the reason °C hit going into a statement of many of the leading ineasares of His Majesty's Got vernenent was, the assertion Made by an Hon. Gen. tleman, athat. a kindred system of remissness and delay existed on the part of:both Governments. ~ With a viewa. therefore, to 'obviate any Unfavoura— ble impressions that. s uch assertions may give rise to, he had ent e red into soda detail. CoI.GRAUFORD 'thought :the language held by some Gentlemen in Ole House , that night , would almost:induce hitu, forahe Sake of Ireland, to regree that the Union had taken place, He w as astooo h a ed, that' at. a time when a Rebellion had recently broken taut,'when many people in Ireland imagined a degree of remissness on the part of Government existed, and when the 'capital was nearly serpriied; when under anch circumstances a motion like the present was made in the United Pirliament ; they should be told: that no useful purpose could be answered; by ,it, and chat the United anent could, do nothing in it. -• Very different, he believed, would be the condo& of an Irish, Parliament in such circumstances. He thought the sobjeft should be.' inquired into. Witco he heard of a Want of 'precedent objeded to the ap. pointment of a Committee, 'he ,would ask, where.. was a precedent to be fitund for the present sit teirion of the Empire ? Adverting 'the conlual A the Irish Governtnent, he oberved, that the discovery of the secret Powder-mill, and the carrying a b o ut; o f `Ammunition in the night, were two strong facts to induce a supposition that a serious attack was tended: The 'measure' of doubling the guards Was a paltry and ittadequate precaution : he &mold like to hear the.alledged part explained, that asilett rite Yeomanry of Dublin, with that zeal and prompii. !tide which always animated them, applied for am. munition, they were told 'they could not get ir a 'ro answer this charge would not reqttire much time. He thought great pradieal.advantages would arias from acceding. to the MotiOn—one of which Was; it' would tend to strengthen The confidence of the loyal and well affeded people of Ireland the Goveinment. The discasofilure of the Re. bels in their first artemat, was chiefly owing to 'the fortunate circumstance' some of ratan getting drunk, :and comtnencing their Operations.. too Soon. - It should he known what state of pre. partition the Garrison was in at 'the time: the inquiry would go -to exculpate the iridi Go. vet nment ; were it, as was then contended, irre. proachable, and which would be another advantage for his Party the cotultid of those who opposed the Motion, had rather given him Unfavourable impres. Wished to say a few words respeding the