The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-30 00:00:00

........--••''' rur and fil o a f gl !Wil t - ana NEV I 5 a ftertwoo, we yer, 981 to ' an 1n gh e r rted iv, an, 15 t v e bares y p v ere 1 2 i 1 I d i sco unt 51; 01 1: 3 1 t° Leh elitet • to 11, 8 ..j th'Ea ate ;l YOrka prCll ll , lll3. 7l dl a s ' o p ran was ieste ismorga rs 01';00 s ett F l r° e 8 asr ainitierei 1 0 TThyl ce4 b r ; 156 1 10 31 11 . red o, 'le itto , 1 0 38016 i 37 3 "; 0, ag g 86 • • 0 14 d' gOet• 93 ...... „ ....... , ...... ..... ...... ...... , ...... . • • 57N • 3 „, go v fl , $ 1 ; i 1 g 1i 3 17 o 4 4 11 o f sei 6 4 3 ' r,l p hot '9 a ll , a OO • ORLI() IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. MOUSE OF LORDS, March 29. ?el Heil' Lordships sat to-day to hear appeals. The Lord 1-their fea BYRON V. COOPER. P le arSly guments rgiship s postponed in th tponed their ju is case were e dgment. r,ncluded to-day, mist' PRESBYTERIAN MARRIAGES. Z.E QUEEN V. MILLIS. THE QUEEN iJ. CARROLL. 8 c 9 se stood in the paper for final judgment to at 'nalf-past four o'clock. It will be recollected o '-ne time s in ce th e i r L or d s hi ps state d t h e i r opi ftro " 8 on the matter seriatim; three of them being in it tt ." of thevalidity of the marriages, and three against I At the hour appointed the Lord Chancellor, Lord L'C r agham, Lord Cottenham, Lord Campbell, and Lord 14 g oys, were in a tt en d ance . Sh or tly b e f ore fi ve o ' c l oc k 0 "uke of Wellington entered, and after some eon rabic consultation between the Lord Chancellor, [Brougham, Lord Campbell, and Lord Cottnnham, eotii )rd B ROUGHAM moved that the judgment of the 't of Q ueen ' s Bench in Ireland, declaring the first 11141°1i cage illegal, should be reversed ; whereupon the le divided, when theve appeared, for the reversal, 2, I gta Ist it 2 ; the effectof which will be that the judg ti,ti ueicnv will stand, by which it was declared that ezi..first marriage was invalid. e C ORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool -9%T-,. Five o'Clock. IRISH PRES'dYTERIAN MARRIAGES. th e ale LORD C11.A.3v , i - CELLOR said, as the opinion of (I, :Rouse on the case of the Queen v. Millis and the of !en v. Carroll liad been such as to affirm the opinion r„ the Court helo - w, he should move for the re-appoint -2,i1- it of the CoTnraiLtee on the Irish Presbyterian Mar• ;e Law , with -n v iew to legislating upon it. th :or d CAW : I - JELL fully agreed that legislation upon of la Subject wr , s indispensable, for, according to the forms s i fi t he Rouse . the judgment of the Court below had been judgment he judges had been equally divided in their ded l ent, and when this equality existed, it was consi ias•,''as a decision in the negative • but the law re- Pea' b. y such judgment in an unsettled state. ,3 1 ,: r ct.0 OTTENHAM could not agree in the opinion Kpr essed, because the judgment which had been Wa - 4, to all intents, a judgment of the House, and I s "JUdg ment of course asserted and settled what the 06 He quite agreed in the propriety of having a t a i nlitto - 3e to consider an alteration of the law. sadL! 3RD CHANCELLOR said the decision which s i n °e , .n come to was, in fact, an affirmance of the deci "ll of the Court below. d 'BROTJGHAM considered it was necessary to )4 t : a Vominittee, with a v i ew t o l eg i s l at i ve i nter f erence, -.out 'delay. 11JESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS., gf . n ess , 'rgers f rom th e C ommons b roug h t up the Guild -Itrr nch Railway Bili, the Norwich and Brandon 4 vay Bill, and another private Bill. CRIMINAL LAW. s!....eetiotttr;lela paOIT,GHAM said, that at the time he held the Commission was appointed to inquire into state of the criminal law of this country. A report eo been; Pt tblished by that Commis s io n , w hi c h re p or t etinstitul;ed a digest of the whole criminal law of this it iltit rY. It did not extend to Scotland or Ireland, but p r0 1 ", 3 a code of criminal law in England, excluding t o f e i "-tire. A code of criminal procedure was intended to b ,, °l34 ru. He had, therefore, drawn up a short Bill 1 : 7 44 e1 upon the repot, and he now presented it to their 1 1 ,4& , hips, and prayed them to give it a first reading, sh he hoped the Government would take the Bill into 'm consideration, and give it the support it deserved. dord CAMPBELL said he felt some apprehension on eunt of the somewhat irregular mode in which his k l' lol e and Learned Friend had introduced the Bill. He k:tainly thought, when his Noble Friend rose, that he ended to introduce the Bill on the part of the iL )vernment Hr ; (Lord Campbell) was extremely glad ZAtt the Bill lifid been introduced ; and he would s „ l 2, been ,lad to have heard his Noble ti le ._ Learned Friend say he introduced it on e Part of the Government, for he knew that the Bill t - never b e carried out unless it was zealously sup dby thr J G overnment. It would appear, however, rit the Go vernment had not yet even seen the Bill. th ho ped, however, that they would take it up, and that kis country would no longer be the only nation in mope Nv, ; shout a criminal code. I de — ',„, s r u ) ,sROUGHAM could not allow his Noble and e e Xe'..t Friend to say that this was an irregular pro th-"'Jg. His Noble and Learned Friend forgot that pro thee.. report of the Commissioners on this subject was a Valle one, and had been published fifteen months, and ( I been in the possession of every Member of both ° l leses of P ar li amen t. Z'nrd CAMPBELL explained. POOR-RATES (IRELAND.) t i he Earl of CLARE presented a petition from b,,l r terick complaining of the mode of assessment for the h.n' in that district. The Nobl e Earl presented also a retition from Limerick praying for a Bill to improve the 'tZ v erage and the arrangement of the streets in that city. " Noble Earl presented also a petition for a tax upon -vtent. IRISH MAGISTRACY. atf , T he Marquis of NORMANBY wished to call the lotion of their Lordships to a recent appointment to 4p, magistracy in Ireland, to which his cwa „ i r ntion was not called until this day. He etlJeeted to the appointment of Mr. O'Brien as a N , n roilary magistrate, because only a few years ago he a violent Repealer. True, he might have altered th '' opinions ; and if this was done in a way to prove at it had been done in sincerity, he certainly did not rethat o ffi ce should be barred against a gentleman. ention not to give any of the patronage of the Crown 4 the direction of those persons who were declared and Repealers. And the fact was, that this gentle 'o's reason for abandoning repeal was such as to clis '4itttle him to any credit for his conduct; for, from his vet t* 1 „ 1 tee vehemence in the cause—from the lengths to . h e he w e nt i n su pport of it, the heads of the Repeal tlty had re f use d an y f u rther co-operation with him. a was the cause of his secession from repeal. He had d rat abused all those who were against repeal, and then +ll thos e who, like himself, had been in favour of it, but, 114 0 1 4 4 himself, had been more discreet and decorous in etr support of if. He should leave it to the Govern ‘ilent, now they were made acquainted with the character 1 1 conduct of this gentleman, to correct an appointment I, , aleh they must feel was not a proper one. The return ‘r o had moved for lately did not include this objection- C e appointment, and he should therefore move et the r e t u rn be completed to this day, with ( PI date of the last appointment made by the rernment, of a stipendiary magistrate. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said if the Noble rd who had just sat down thought that this matter old be allowed to rest in the manner which the tenor ft ▪ his speech indicated he was much mistaken. He (the Ar, ar CIIIIS of Clanricarde) intonded himself to submit, er noti ce , a direct motion to their Lordships, because he ' thou g ht there was nothing of more importance than have the administration of justice beyond suspicion in .k i e ,:and• The passing over of so many gentlemen, who h: 4 been connected with this particular branch, and who th e highest characters, and selecting Mr. O'Brien, itaid not but tend to bring into contempt the adminis .etio .• th n or j ust ice. He stated those facts merely to show j e :t when Government professed ignorance of the sub t that it was only a reiteration of their old defence, nt at they never rea d the newspapers. Now all the Irish w sPapers teemed with this matter—but, strange to 4,tbe " Government paper" (if that word were allow -14,1) had not taken the slightest notice of this appoint 03_,t• He wished to say nothing disrespectful of Mr. a o ,Zleti, but he trusted that the Government would find 4, 4 1 other situation for bim besides one which would ,i tk u „ to injure the respect in which the administration of r i ,",ce should be held. •iiCoe Duke of WELLINGTON thought that the &Ru t,: about reading the newspapers was unfounded and • eless. He had never heard that Mr. O'Brien had C e ll named in any prominent manner before. It would th i Mach bett er , h e thought, if notice had been given of L t ootion by the Noble Lord opposite. rd BROUGHAM thought the best mode of putting repe a l was by promoting those who were the most aent in supp o rt o f it. I n the year 1834, a Right Hon. 0-vnf t leman, who was then a Repealer, and who was one t he tellers on a motion for repeal, was, instead of b r ,, lt g Persecuted for his opinions by the Government, t„' - '_,Moted to the o ffi ce of Vice-rresident of the Board of tirade, and they had heard no word about repeal from be since. When that a ppointm e nt was made they /t 1 no objection to it from anybody on account of the p t lbtt lion. G e ntl e man' s opi n io n s. N ow , no doubt the iernment bad dealt in the same manner with Mr. lip I V". He had been appointed, doubtless, after giving L aci la Unalterable opinions, and he (Lord Brougham) e t ,,,a,0 doubt that many others would give up their strop unalterable opinions, if they had an equally relit, reason for doing so. God knew that anything • te r g to the dispensation of justice was a serious mat -144 and anything relating to the management of the the e ., of the realm was a serious matter ; but, still, if th,._`•Tovernment thought that persons were qualified for umces, th e y were right in appointing them. t ar r Marquis of CLANRICARDE said, if Noble oPposite could show that Air. O'Brien was a fit • 40 0 to be appointed, he should be contented to have potion negatived. tu aci tt a Marquis of NORMANBY thought that the best tio a of putting down repeal was by means of promo all I though the Government entirely forgot it when they oateireded l oca l magistrates, on account of their repeal • " s • ---- (Cheers.) The Noble Lord said that, when of th Neil was appointed to the office of Vice-President p o i tv e Board of Trade, no one complained of the ap • ‘toent. Why, did the Noble Lord forget the out ja that were made respecting it, at what were called tittnes;rvative gatherings, whic h took place about that co uld -- (Hear, hear.) He (the Marquis of Normanby) th e zu not conceive that any opposition would be made to or i rr °t ion, which he did not think was either unusual tores.alar.—(Hear, and a laugh.) mon o u ,WITARNCLIFFE did not so much object to the In itself as to the irregular and uncourteous manner , I ,Ch it was brought forward. k at . of RIPON did not complain of the Noble th e ;Ims making the motion, but he did complain of eri es Pe„e , ch, which was very violent.—(Hear, hear, and n ot ,t No, no.) The gentleman who was speaking was atw a .„.. . . ryas'ear an y Lao nest Judge of his own violenee.—(Hear, a a laugh.) The speech of the Noble Marquis bitter attack upon the Government and upon the tasoblel , ord wh o was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. It 441;1u tte impossible that a Government could vindicate obj ect l l: ) °n such q ues ti ons w i t h out not i ce. H e did not to rah tte _ e motion, but to the want of notice. Itg re .. i r a desultory conversation, the motion was to.. T he .„, STATE OF IRELAND. 41 arquis of CLANRICARDE pursu ant to ruse, T• tohpisresenta petitionrespecting the state of Ire itinajoritx petition was signed by m an y P eers , an d b y of the representatives of Ireland in the other House of Parliament. He should move that the peti tion should be read at length ; and he trusted that the moderate and sensible prayer with which it included, would receive the most serious attention of that House and of the Government. None of the promised mea sures of the Government were yet before their Lord ships ; and, therefore, it would be fully to attempt to form opinions upon what they would be ; but, he sin cerely trusted they would be characterigcd by a spirit of conciliation that wou!d be acceptable not only to Ireland but to the whole United Kingdom, The petition was then read at length, and was ordered to lie upon the table. IRELAND—THE JURY SYSTEM. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE -aid, he rose ac cording to notice to move for the production of any in structions that might have been given to any of the Crown solicitors in Ireland as to the mode of impanelling juries in Ireland. He was satisfied, having received yesterday a notification from the Neble Lord opposite (Wharncliffe) that there would be no objection to the production of these returns, that it would be unjustifi able in him to make more than a very few observations to their Lordships in reference to this subject. He should, therefore, merely say what he considered requisite to justify him in occupying the attention of their Lordships. He need not say in that House that every thing connected with the administra tion of justice, but most of all with that great feature of it which affected the constitution of juries, was one cal culated to excite the most anxious attention of the coun try. When a prisoner, or a culprit, heard the first forms of the court by which he was to be tried—and which were so important in their nature—when he was asked, how he would be tried? and responded, by his God and his country, he considered he had thrown his liberty, perhaps his life, into the hands ofpersons with the same feelings, sympathies, and habits as himself. Now, what, for a long time, had been the practice in Ireland? They had too often been in the habit of using the powers and forms which were placed in the hands of the Crown for a very different object, to the purpose of ex cluding a great majority of their countrymen . from taking their share in that branch of the administra tion of justice which it was their right to do. The system adopted in these prosecutions had been de nounced by Chief Baron Joy, and some of the most eminent men connected with the legal profession. From equally high authority he could assert, that in all cases when Roman Catholics had acted as jurors they had discharged their duties with impartiality and fidelity. Sir Michael O'Loghlin gave instructions that no dis tinction should be made in the appointment of juries ; and he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) rejoiced that such instructions had been issued, because he thought that the powers of the Crown ought not to be exercised to reject persons because of their religious opi nions. He was deeply impressed with the value of trial by jury, and of its being essential to the fair ad ministration'of the law, and of supporting that confi dence between man and man which was necessary to a good state of society. He would again say that he be lieved it was not the intention of the Government to bring the law into contempt, but he thought it was quite as well to give to them an opportunity of expressly dis claiming any participation in a course which was likely to produce such a result. In submitting this motion to the House, he was not actuated by any feelings with respect to a particular trial ; but in the hope that some responsible member of the Government would give an as surance that no sanction would be given to such a course, and that those who adopted it did so without their consent. The Noble Marquis concluded by moving for copies of instructions given to the Irish Law Officers of the Crown relative to challenging juries. Lord WHARNCLIFFE, who spoke in so low a tone as to be scarcely audible in the gallery, read a circular addressed by the Attorney-General for Ireland, which was to the following effect:—" The Attorney-General presents his compliments to the Crown Solicitor, and, having read the instructions given by Mr. Brady, when Attorney-General, with respect to setting aside jurors, requests the Crown Solicitor to continue to act upon those instructions." He (Lord Wharncliffe) thought this was a sufficient proof that the Government had not acted on any new principle with respect to striking off jurors. With respect to the motion of the Noble Mar quis, there was no objection to produce the instructions, or portions of them, relating to the particular subject to which he had referred. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE expressed himself satisfied with the offer of the Noble Lord. Lord BROUGHAM thought his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had acted very fairly in the manner in which he had brought forward his motion. Lord CAMPBELL expressed a hope that the prin ciple which was applied to the striking off jurors in Ireland, with respect to Crown cases, would also be ap plied to special jury cases. Lord WHARNCLIFFE said the Government officers would always endeavour to do so. The motion was then agreed to. GWALIOR. The Marquis of NORMANBY wished to ask his No ble Friend, the President of the Board of Control, when it was likely any further papers relative to Gwalior would be produced. The Eaii of RIPON said he would endeavour to lay the papers alluded to by the Noble Marquis on the table of the House before Easter. The Marquis of NORMANBY said he would abstain from making any motion on the subject until the papers were on the table. INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT. On the motion of the Earl of DALHOUSIE the In ternational Copyright Bill was read a second time. Several other Bills were advanced a stage. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 29. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'Clock. The Guilford Junction Railway Bill, and the Norwich and Brandon Railway Bill, were read a third time and passed. Mr. THORNELY presented a petition from Liverpool against the Liverpool Docks Bill. The Wells (Norfolk) Harbour and Quay Bill, and the Wells (Norfolk) improvement Bill were read a se cond time. ATMOSPHERIC RAILWAYS - GRAVESEND RAILWAY. Mr. SHAW rose to call the attention of the House to a petition which he had presented a few nights ago from certain parties who had projected a railway, to be con structed upon the atmospheric principle. He called the attention of the House to this subject upon public grounds, in order that the atmospheric principle might be fairly applied to railways in this country. It had al ready been tried in Dublin on a short railroad, but the engineers who had been sent over to observe the work ing of the principle, amongst whom was Mr. Brunel, were of opinion that the Dublin and Dalkey Railway was too short to enable them fully to judge of the merits of the principle and they therefore recommended that the principle should be tried on some railway in this country, and upon that recommendation a project had been started for constructing a railway to Gravesend upon the at mospheric principle. The parties had presented a peti tion to the House, praying to be allowed to bring in a Bill ; but their petition prayed for a Bill to construct a common railway. They afterwards, however, presented another petition, praying to be all Owed to con struct a railway on the new principle. This peti tion, however, was presented too late to be re ceived by the Standing Orders' Committee, and there fore the Company were prevented from bringing in their Bill. Now, what he wished , -as, that these par • ties should be allowed to present a petition to the Stand ing Orders' Committee, to grant them permission to bring in their Bill this session, as it was highly im portant to the public that the new principle should be fully tested. He was anxious to bring the question be fore the House, because twelve months' delay might be of serious consequence to the projectors of the Gravesend Railway. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by mov ing that the petitioners for the Gravesend, Rochester, and Chatham Railway Bill have leave to proceed with the Bill, and that the Standing Orders be suspended for that purpose. Mr. STRUTT said, that as Chairman of the Standing Orders' Committee, it might, perhaps, be expected that he should give some explanation of the reasons why he should oppose the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He would not throw any difficulties in the way of the railway, but the non-compliance with the Standing Orders, which the Right Honourable Gentleman said were mere matters of form, were, in his opinion, very important. In few cases were they so important—and he believed they were over twenty in number. There were two sections on the line, one for the atmospheric system, the other for the ordinary mode, and one or either of these plans must be adopted. But though the Bill enabled them to adopt either, they gave no notice at all with regard to one. It was necessary that parties whose property was to be cut through should get notice, in order that they might be able to defend their interest. The Committee were of opinion that the question was of that kind in which they should follow the rules upon which they ordinarily decided. There were two schemes before them, and they would have neglected the duty which they owed to the House if they had showed any favour to one part of the scheme in preference to the other. They were decidedly of opinion that this was a case in which it would be impossible for them to allow the proceedings to go on. The House would also bear in mind that the Gravesend line was a competing one, and that there was another competing line before them at the same time. They would, there fore, be guilty of great negligence if they dealt with ono line in a manner different from that in which they dealt with the other.(Hear, hear.) The question, therefore, was not merely whether they would allow one particular scheme to be carried out in opposition to the Standing Orders, but whether they should allow to one com peting line what they did not allow to another. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that it was a most im portant invention—indeed it was of national importance, and that it was necessary that it should be tried during the present year, as there was no other mode of making the trial except through this Bill. Those were i material allegations, and he thought they should receive some better proof of them than that of their being merely alleged in a petition. The Right Hon. Gentleman wished the subject referred tolhe Standing Orders' Com mittee. In his (Mr. Strutt's) opinion that was not the tribunal before which such a question could or ought to be received. He would, therefore, suggest to him that it ought not to be referred to the Standing Orders' Committee. If the House chose to appoint a Select Committee to in quire into the merits of thi atmospheric railway, and if the Committee were of opinion that the national ad vantages to be derived from it were so important, a n d that the urgency of the case was so great ,th at the in terests of the competing rail way Committee it would e te s ought to be disregarded, it would not be for him to oppose it ;but all h suggest, then, was, that the Standing Orders' could not act upon principles diff e rent from that on which they usually acted. If it were referred back to decision from that to which they had already come. He them, he did not see how they could come to a different THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING- 1 MARCH 30, 1844. must, therefore, give his most decided opposition to the ' motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. SHAW said it was not his intention to divide the House upon the motion, but if the House approve 1 of it, he would move, in pursuance of the suggestion of the Hon. Gentleman, that the subject be referred back to the Standing Orders' Committee. He begged to say he did not intend that the Committee should decide on ap plying the atmospheric principle, but upon trying it. Mr. STRUTT said he made no suggestion about re ferring the matter back to the Standing Orders' Com mittee. Ott the contrary, he said.that if it were referred back to the Standing Orders' Committee, he did not see how they could come to any other decision than that which they had already arrived at. Mr. GLADSTONE must warn the House against permitting parties to invalidate the Standing Ord.a-s of the House merely on the ground of scientific experi ments or improvements. Ile wished every encourage ment to be given to inventions and improvements, but they ought to-be careful in putting aside any of those rules and regulations by which their proceedings were governed. He was by no means adverse to the propo sition of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Shaw) to in • quire whether the experiments made at the particular place alluded to were successful ; but the House must recollect that there would be no want of applications to them if they showed themselves too easily disposed to constitute a tribunal for the consideration of scientific experiments. Mr. HUME said it was only yesterday he had met with one of the most scientific men of the day, who hid gone to Dublin with a decided feeling of disapprobation of the atmospheric system, and had returned highly de lighted with it. In this gentleman's opinion the experi ment now in progress near Dublin would lead to one of the greatest improvements of the day. lie hoped the House would grant a Select Committee, in order to give to the country the best information that could be gained on so important a subject from the opinions of men com petent, by their scientific attainments and practical ex perience, to arrive at sound conclusions upon the subject. Lord HOWICK said he understood the Right lion. Gentleman to wish for the appointment of a Select Com mittee, to ascertain whether or not it was possible to try the atmospheric principle on a larger scale during the present year. He entirely concurred with the Hon. Member for Dundee as to the desirableness of that ob ject. This was not one of those ordinary projects to which the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, had referred. It was a scheme which had been tried to a certain extent, and which, in the opinion of the most scientific men, had, so far, been eminently successful; but before a judgment could be formed, it was absolutely indispensable that the experi ment should be tried on a more extended scale. With regard to the question immediately before the House, he quite admitted that the objection, founded on the Standing Orders, was altogether insuperable ; but he hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would endeavour to provide facilities for trying this plan. Mr. GLADSTONE said that, of all persons, he should be the last to offer any obstruction to the fair trial of the experiment. The Inspector-General of Railways had paid the greatest attention tl the subject.—(Hear,) Sir R. INGLIS begged to remind the House that they were not trying to benefit the atmospheric plan by con sidering whether a certain Bill should or should not be brought before the House in compliance with the Stand ing Orders, the Committee of which was composed of Members on both sides of the House. He thought the experiment ought not to be made at the expense of parties who were bringing, forward the Bill. Mr. ESTCOURT said it was a matter of considerable importance, not only that this experiment should be tested, but that it should be tested at as early an oppor tunity as possible, inasmuch as the construction of many railways might depend in a great measure on the results of that experiment. Mr. SHAW said that he did not want to re verse the order of the Standing Orders' Committee ; but he thought it might be left open to the applicants for the Bill to petition for a new Bill, and to lay before the House the grounds on which they rested their proposi tion. Such an arrangement would not bind the Standing Orders' Committee. The motion was then withdrawn without further dis cussion. BR ANDES AND BURTON INCLOSURE. The Brandes and Burton Inclosure Bill was read a third time. MIDDLE LEVEL DRAINAGE BILL. The Middle Level Drainage Bill was read a second time. SWANSEA HARBOUR BILL The Swansea Harbour Bill was read a second time. SOUTHAMPTON MARSH IMPROVEMENT BILL. Mr. G. W. HOPE presented a petition in favour of the Southampton Msrsh Improvement Bill. Lord PALMERSTON presented a petition against the Bill. Mr. G. W. HOPE, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said that he was not aware that it was to be opposed. The Bill was for the inclosure of a marsh near the town of Southampton, and the profits to be derived from the inclosure were to be appropriated to the improvement of public walks in the neighbourhood of the town. The only objection that he had heard to it was that it interfered with a cricket-ground. Now the supporters of the Bill had given up the intention of in terfering with the cricket-ground, and therefore he could not understand what ground there could be for opposition to the present Bill, which did not interfere with any waste land used for the purpose of recreation. Lord PALMERSTON said that the parties who op posed the Bill were apprehensive lest the ground should be built upon, and the inhabitants be thus deprived of the advantages which a salubrious place of exercise now afforded them. Sir R. INGLIS said that the Bill proposed to take away from the recreation and health of a great portion of the inhabitants of Southampton between forty and fifty acres, and they ought to obtain an assurance that their place of exercise should not be interfered with. Mr. HUME wished the Bill to be referred to a Com mittee. Sir J. EASTIIOPE presented two petitions against the Bill. The Bill was read a second time without opposition. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. Dr. BOWRING postponed his motion on the public accounts till after Easter. NOTICES OF MOTION-AMERICA.N RICE. Mr. HUME gave notice that, on Monday next, he should move for copies of, or extracts from the correspon dence between the Government and the American Am bassador, relative to the admission of rice, the produce of the United States of America, into this country at the same rate of duty as rice from the East Indies. PROCESS SERVING (IRELAND). Ths HON. MEMBER also gave notice that he should move for a return of the items, showing how 2551., set down as the expense of serving processes in Ireland, was expended. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE gave notice, that on the motion for going into Committee on the Masters and Servants' Bill, he would move that the Bill be committed that day six months. SMOKE. Mr. PROTHEROE said that, seeing the Hon. Mem ber for Lymington in his place, he wished to ask him whether it was his intention to bring in a Bill to remedy the evil of smoke?—(Laughter.) He hoped that the in quiries of the Committee would not end in smoke— (Great laughter)—as great interest was felt on the sub ject in the manufacturing districts.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. MACKINNON said he had received several appli cations on the subject to which the Hon. Gentleman referred. It was impossible for him to state what course he should pursue, until he knew what were the inten tions either of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, or the Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests. The recom mendation of the Committee, that the Government should bring in a Bill in the first instance ; and that, in case they declined to do so, hs , (Mr. Mackinnon) should bring in a Bill, as Chairman of the Committee. He thought the best course he could adopt was to give notice of his intention to put a question to the Govern ment on Monday next. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he was fully aware of the importance of the subject, and if his Hon. Friend would introduce a Bill in accordance with the views of the Committee, that Bill should have his best support. DROPPED NOTICES. Lord PALMERSTON gave notice that he should bring on his motion in reference to the Right of Search, after Easter. FISHERIES. Captain PECHELL called the attention of the Go vernment to the state of the fisheries, in consequence of the regulations adopted by the Convention between England and France. It appeared that two French fishing boats had been fined for not having the requisite numbers and letters on the bows of their boats. He wished to know whether arrangements had been made for the purpose of informing the fishermen of France in what manner they were to regulate their conduct in ap proaching the English coast. Sir R. EEL said that he had informed the Hon. Gentleman some time ago that he believed it was the intention of the French Government to submit a project of law on the subject to which he bad referred to the Chamber of Deputies. He would make inquiries in the two cases to which the Hon. and Gallant Member had referred.—The subject then dropped. EXPIRING LAWS. On.the motion of Sir G. CLERK the following Mem bers were appointed on the Expiring Laws' Commit tee :—Sir George Clerk, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, Sir Thomas Fremantle, the Attorney-General, Mr. Pigot, the Solicitor-General, Mr. Sheil, Lord Eliot, Mr. Baring, Mr. Wilson Patten, Sir George Grey, Mr. Charles Wood, Mr. Greene, Mr. Gladstone, and Mr. Home Drummond. ATMOSPHERIC RAILWAYS. Mr. SHAW gave notice of his intention, on Monday next, to move for a Select Committee, to inquire into the important principle of atmospheric railways. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Sir R. PEEL, it was agreed that the House at its rising do adjourn till Monday next. FACTORIES BILL. Sir J. GRAHAM said, that before moving the Order of the Day for proceeding with the Factories Bill, in or,ler to withdraw it, perhaps the House would allow him to present a petition of great importance, from sixty-two firms in Manchester, employing upwards of :30,000 labourers, who were assessed to the poor to the amount of 44,0001. a-year, and embracing, as he had been credibly informed, nine-tenths of the capital employed in the cotton manufactories of that town. The prayer of that petition was, in his opinion, well entitled to the consideration of the House. They stated that they had heard with excessive alarm that an attempt had been made to reduce to ten hours the employment of persons in factories. They stated that that would reduce their profits one-seventh— that it would reduce the capital which was em ployed to the same amount—that it would have the effect of reducing wages, and also th e exporta tion of naatufactwes abroad. It also stated that tho ultimate reduction of wages from it would be from 15 not only of carrying into effect in any future to 25 per cent. upon the average--that it would deprive Bill, the recorded decisions of this House, that the labouring people of the enjoyments they at present the labour to he performed by young persons and possessed, and would tend to excite generally a spirit of females in factories should be less than twelve hours per di,content. The petitioners, therefore, earnestly prayed day; but also with the view of maintaining good faith the House not to sanction such a proposition. with those whose confidence in the integrity of the Lord HOWICK presented a petition from the Short votes of this House is indispensable to its character and Time Committee, praying the House not to allow the its existence as a deliberative and representative Bill to be withdrawn. I assembly." Throe times had the House told the work- Mr. BULLER presented a petition to the same effect. ing classes and the public, by these separate divisions Mr. TATTON EGERTON presented a petition from , that twelve hours labour in the factories was too much Hyde, in Cheshire, against the limitation of the time of for females and young persons—(Hear, hear)—and the labour to ten hours. Government told the House and the country that they Mr. ESTCOURT presented three petitions from , would withdraw the Bill, and introduce another which Trowbridge, in the county of Wilt 4. The first was should still continue twelve hours as the time for labour, signed by 54 operatives in the employment of Mr. a-id they told them that the better course wouldbe to take Samuel Broe n. The petitioners stated that they that Bill, because if they did not they would get nothing hail heard with alarm of the intention of the at all. On Friday the Noble Lord had made a solemn House to restrict the hours of labour in factories appeal to the House, and had asked them to uphold to ten. That reduction would inflict serious injury upon their former decision, and now th e y were a b out them, inasmuch as it would necessarily lead t o a reduc- to permit the Government to withdraw the tion of wages ; and they prayed the Housenot to restrict Bill without giving any pl e d ge as t o t h e na further the hours of labour. He had also another peti- tore of their future m easures .—(H ear , h ear. ) tion to the same effect, from th e op era ti ves i n the em- They owed it to the dignity of the House—they owed it ploy of Mr. Allen ; and another, with a similar prayer, to themselves—they owed it to the people—to put on from the operatives in the employment of Mr. Appleby. record some such sentiment as that contained in the re- Ansolution which he propo se d.—(Ch eers .) Th e Ri g h t Hoer. ME 3113 It presented four petitions from the operatives of Trowbridge, w ith a similar prayer. Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State had stated that there Lord ASHLEY presented petitions from Preston, were three courses which it was open to the Government Wigan, and Warrington, in favour of a Ten Hours' Bill. to pursue ; but it had not suggested itself to the Right Hon. Baronet and his colle agues th a t th ere was a f ourt h Mr. HINDLEY presented a petition which had been agreed to at a public meeting at Ashton, in favour of a course which they might p ursue , an d th a t was , i nstea d Ten Hours' Bill. of withdrawing the Bill, to withdraw themselves.— Mr. FIE GDEN presented a petition in favour of a Ten (Cheers and laughter.) H e b e li eve d th a t un d er ex i st i ng Hours' Bill: circumstances, nothing would give greater satisfaction to THE NAVAL FORCE IN IRELAND—POOR- the country than the adoption of such a course. The RATES. Right Hon. Baronet said, that the Cabinet had delibe- Sir G. COCKBURN, seeing the Hon. and Gallant rated on the course which they should adopt, and that Member for Brighton in his place, would take that op- course was, to reverse the solemn dec'sion of the portunity, before the Orders of the Day should be read, House which had been three times recorded. of alluding to a question which the Hon. and Gallant The Government told them frankly and openly that in Member had put to him the other evening. The Hon. any fresh Bill which they might introduce they would and Gallant Gentleman had asked him if he was aware not have anything short of twelve hours, and this that the naval force had been employed in assisting in House calling itself a Reform Parliament and an electi ve the collection of poor-rates in Ireland. To that he had assembly, was about to permit them to withdraw the replied, that there was a naval force stationed on the west Bill without placing on record their solemn opinion, and coast of Ireland, and that perh a p s t h e y m i g ht h ave l en t the without pledging themselves as to the course which they assistance of their moral influence to the aid of the civil would for the future pursue. The Right Hon. Baronet power. The fact was that two steamers had been stationed put him in mind of the captain of a merchantman who on the west coast of Ireland, in aid of the civil force, the freighted a ship to the West Indies, loaded with grind consequence of which was, that the presence of the mili- stones and cheeses. There was a great demand for the tary was rendered unneccessary, and the effusion of blood, cheeses, and none whatever for the grind-stones ; find probably, prevented.. ing this to be the case the captain said, " If you take a Captain PECHELL said that on the Navy estimates cheese you shall also take a grind-stone—l will he had pointed out that one, if not two, war steamers, not part with one without the other."—(Cheers and was employed in the collection of poor-rates in Ireland. laughter.) And there sat the Right Hon. Gentleman The Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Sir with his factories amendments in the one hand, and his George Cockburn) denied the statement, and said twelve hours grind -stone in the other—(Laughter)— he was not aware of any such circumstance. He saying you shall nit have the one without the other; (Captain Pechell) subsequently produced his authority and he believed the result would be what it had been in for his statement, and the Right Hon. Baronet, the the case of the captain, that the Right Hon. Gentleman Secretary of State for the Home Department made au would have his whole freight left on hand.—(Cheers and apology for the Right Honourable and Gallant Officer, laughter.) He hoped the House would not allow any and he (Captain Pechell) was satisfied with that Bill to pass which would continue the twelve hours apology, but since that the Right Honourable clause. Motives had been attributed to those who sup and Gallant Officer came down to the House ported a ten hours' clause, which ought not to have been and revived the subject, and acknowledged, in fact, that attributed to them. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, the poor-rates had been collected under the guns of a the other evening, that their social system was so altered war-steamer. The difference between him (Captain that it required an alteration in their legislation. Pechell) and the Right Hon. Gentleman was, that the Nothing could be more true. They had arrived at a latter said he had no cognizance of the fact of the new social system, particularly in the manufacturing steamers being so employed, and he added that the districts. Let them look to the distress both in the officers of those vessels had received no instructi ons from agricultural and manufacturing districts. Let them the Admiralty to collect the poor-rates, but merely to look to the state of crime in those districts. The popu aid the civil power whereas he (Captain Pechell) lat i on had i ncrease d , i n ten years, twelve or thirteen per inferred that those ships of war were kept on that coast, cent., and the returns made with regard to the state of in order that the police and officers of Government crime showed that the criminal commitments had increased might the better insure the collection of the poor-rat e s. from fifteen to eighteen per cent. Mr. Justice Cresswell, One of the steamers was, in fact, converted into a sort of Somerset House.—(Cheers and laughter.) The col- in the charge which he made last summer assizes, in Yorkshire, and Lancashire, stated that crime had in lectors went on board and claimed assistance of the offs- creased twofold in the last seven years; and Sir cers, and one person went on board to pay his rates. A. Henneker declared that the state of crime in Mr. FRENCH stated, on the authority of Dr. Kir- Suffolk was such, that they ought to use their endea wan, the Vicar-General of the diocese of Galway, that, yours to remove the discontents and grievances under notwithstanding the employment of naval men in the which the agriculturists laboured. 'Well, then, he would collection of the rate, there was still a large amount un- ask, had not a state of things taken place which re collected ;and if ten steamers were employed instead of quired the vigilance of the House ? Political economists eoe a great portion of the rate would remain uncollected. who argued the quest i on o f t h e repea l o f t h e corn - laws, FACTORIES BILL. said that, if they were removed, all difficulties in the On the motion of Sir JAMES GRAHAM, that the way of the present subject would vanish. He (Mr. D.) Order of the Day for going into Committee on the believed, that if the corn-laws were repealed to-mor- Factories Bill, for the purpose of its being discharged, row, i t would b e more than ever necessary to restr i ct be read, the hours of labour in the manufacturing districts. He Mr. B. COCHRANE said that he would venture to regrette d t h e course wh i ch gentlemen connected w i th tell the Noble Lord (Ashley) that he should never have the Anti-Corn-law League had taken upon the subject. agitated the country upon this question, if he had not If they had come forward in a different manner, he calculated beforehand, not merely every probable, but also thought they would be in a better position to ask the every possible combination of circ ums t ances w hi c h must landed gentlemen to agree to a repeal of the corn laws. arise respecting it—(Laughter from the Opposition)— Sacrifices should be made by those who were better able unless the Noble Lord was prepared to overstep all the to bear them than the working classes. If they allowed obstacles which the Government might throw in his the present Bill to be withdrawn, they would stultify way. It was under this impression that he voted with themsel v es, and be the laughing-stock and ridicule of the the Noble Lord. He therefore expected, after the ener- country. He would not be dragged in the mire with getic manner in which the Noble L or d expressed him- the Noble Lord, or any other person. He would entreat self the other evening—he thought he would be pre- of the House, in the words of the Noble Lord, to-uphold pared to carry ou t tho se views to the full extent. He the decision to which they had come. It had been said would say that he considered the conduct of her Ma- that it was for the convenience of Government they jesty's Government had displayed infinitely more ap- should not oppose the rescinding of the Standing Order. parent earnestness than that of the Noble Lord. The He (Mr. Duncombe) offered no opposition to the re- Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State was de- scinding of that order. He only put on record his rea feated on the twelve hours' clause on Monday ; on sons, at all events, and those of'the gentlemen who might Friday he brought the question before the House again. do him the honour of voting with him, for not allowing the It was an unusual course; but no doubt the Right Hon. present Bill to be withdrawn; and also the views which Gentleman thought himself justified in adopting it. He he thought ought to be entertained in that House of the was again defeated on the twelve hours' clause, introduction of any new Bill fur the better regulation of and succeeded only by a very small majority in de- labour in factories. feating the ten hours' clause.. -He then asked for further Sir C. NAPIER seconded the amendment. delay in order to decide what should be done. The Lord ASHLEY said, that not having had the advan- Right Hon. Baronet said he would enter into no corn- tare of hearing the first part of the speech of the Hon. promise whatever, and then proposed to withdraw the Member for Bridport (Mr. B. Cochrane), it was impos- Bill. Now what he wanted to know from the Noble sible for him to reply to any imputations which the Hon. Lord was this, why he did not carry out his principal Gentleman might have thrown out against him. He object by opposing the withdrawal? 'What was the Bill should, therefore, be content to let those imputations rest the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to introduce—was it as they were, merely observing, that in many instances not the very same as the present Bill with the twelve hour the Hon. Gentleman had applied to the Noble Member clause left out ? Why that clause was already struck for Sunderland (Lord Howick) much that ought to have out by the Committee. Everybody in that House and been said against him (Lord Ashley), and that he many out of it knew that the object of the Right lion. ought to have directed against the Noble Member for Sun- Baronet was to gain time, for after Easter there would derland much that he had applied to himself (Lord A.) benoprobability of carrying the ten hour clause.—(Hear, With respect to one point, he wished to say a word. hear.) The Noble Lord might tell him that it was an The Hon. Gentleman had, at some length, argued on unusual course to object to the withdrawal of the Bill. the monstrous absurdity of his (Lord Ashley) pressing Had he not himself told th e Right Hon. Baronet that he for a Ten Hours' Bill, when he admitted it would lead had adopted a most unusual course? He thought this to a reduction of wages. What he (Lord Ashley) had question was one in which if any man put his hand to the said was, that, for the sake of argument, he would sup plough he ought not ever to look back again.—(Hear, pose that the measure would lead to a reduction of hear.) Her Majesty's Government had declared this wages ; and that if it did so, the party whose interests he question was a party question. 'Would they not equally represented were perfectly ready to meet the reduction; declare it a party question a ft e r E a ster as th e y did now ? and that they wou ld state the means b y wh i ch they To those who knew what the House of Common s was, would be able to render the reduction not injurious to the consenting to the withdr aw al was " keeping the them. He would explain this course he had taken in word of promise to the ear, and breaking it to the hope." a few words. He had begun by doing that which the Hon. The fourteen or fifteen days that would elapse would Member for Bridport had not done. He early took give Government an opp or t un ity for agitating the ques- advice from those who were capable of giving it. When tion. He had understood that it was the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed the course of the Noble Viscount t o go i n t o cer tain districts, and there withdrawing the present Bill ; be (Lord Ashley) was agitate the subject. Now this he would say, with re- taken by surprise as was the House also, and the spect to agitation. H e had s upported th e Nobl e Lord House certainly required some time to be granted before on this question; he had taken the deepest i n t eres t i n i t; com i ng to a decision as to the course to be pursued. but he objected to all agitation out of doors, whether During that interval he had consulted many with respect to the corn-l aw s, or repeal, or factories. gentlemen who had voted with him—not gen- He thought questions of such vital importance to the tlemen on one side of the House who might be country should be discussed calmly, dispassionately, supposed to have a sympathy with Ministers, but a great and solemnly in that House.—(Hear.) Even though many on the other side, who gave him the advice they the measure were a good one, if it could only b e carr i e d t h oug ht b est on t h e quest i on , tota ll y i rres p ec ti ve o f any by exciting all those who had an interest in it out of consequences but those which must arise to the general doors, that was, prima facie, an objection to it.—(Hear, benefit of the question. By the vote of the House oa hear.) There was one point in the Noble Lord's speech the second clause, the principle of ten hours had been the other night, to which he could not help alluding. affirmed, but by the vote on the Bth clause, it was de- He was never more astonished than when the Noble Glared that there should be no such thing ; the Bill had Lord said that, in his opinion, the ten hours' clause thus become a mass of inextricable confusion, and it was would reduce wages. If he (Mr. Cochrane) believed quite impossible that it could go forward ; and the Go that the Bill would reduce wages, he would have no- • vernment suggested, as the only means of relieving the thing to do with it.—(Hear, hear, and cheers from both question from these difficulties, to withdraw the Bill sides of the House.) lion. Gentlemen must allow him before the House, with a promise (for this was a very to have his own opinion in reference to the effect of this important matter) that another Bill be substituted in enactment. He had supported the ten hours' clause, its place.—(Hear, hear.) His own impression was, that and he would continue to support it ; but he had his this motion ought to be acceded to ; but that impression own reasons for the course which he pursued.—(Hear, was confirmed by the advice of gentlemen of the greatest hear.) He conceived that in most cases the clause could experience. If he had persisted in saying to the Go not reduce wages much. Most of the manufacturing vernment, "You shall not withdraw this Bill, I will try towns had arrived at the minimum of wages.—(Expres- a debate on that subject," what would be the effect of sions of dissent.) He thought the manufacturers such a course ? It had always been his policy, during would be amply compensated for the reduction of time. eleven years, to avoid as much as possible taking He was not one who would stand up and abuse manu- debates and divisions upon mere technicalities, facturers or any other class of persons, as though they upon mere points cif order. He never had consented to had not the same feelings and sympathies as other men ; take a debate or division except upon a great issue, and he believed they would find themselves compensated and he was happy to say that that cause had been for the two hours' labour at night, by the additional crowned with prosperity. Questions of that sort, so nerve and energy which the work-people would bring to conducted, led to no satisfactory result. And even if he their morning's work. He believed that the effect would had succeeded, he would not have been in a better posi be that the employed would have a fair day's wages for tion then than now. But to succeed was impossible. a fair day's work. But even if the Bill should ulti- Instead of succeeding, be would have been left in so mately be found to reduce wages, his opinion was th a t sma ll a m i nor i ty , t h at h e wou ld venture to say , t h at t h e the Noble Lord should in that case follow the example majority of the Government, instead of being 7or 10, of Mr. Whitbread, in 1795, and bring in a Bill to regu- would have been 70 or 80, or perhaps nearly 100.— late wages.—(lronical cries of " Hear, hear.") He was (Hear, hear.) And in what position would the ques not afaid that this discussion would not have the result tion be then in ? Would it not be taken by the country and which he had desired. He was afraid that the time of by the great body whose opinions he (Lord Ashley) repre the House had been lost.—(Laughter and ironical cheer- seated ; would not the operative classes, who felt so ing.) He would ask any unprejudiced person to look at strongly on this measure, consider such a majority as a the state of the case. The Noble Lord had appealed to decisive expression of the opinion of that House against the the House the other night in terms most unusual. great principle which they had so long cherished ? He appealed to the House—to his supporters—not to (Hear, hear.) That was the reason why he (Lord give way an inch—not to give the ground they had Ashley) formed that opinion ; but when he found his taken ; and yet, on Friday night, when he had kept views confirmed by those of gentlemen of the greatest Members in town for the purpose of voting with him, experience—not only on that (the Ministerial) side of the then he told them that, after Easter, he would decide House, who might be supposed to have a sympathy upon the course he would pursue.—(A laugh.) He un- with the Government—but also from Hon. Members op.. derstood that to be so, and if he was wrong he was posite, who had none, he could no longer hesitate to sorry for making the statemen t.—(Hear.) He was adopt the course he had adopted, and which the interests afraid the country had been agitated, and the time of of this very question required. And let it not be said, the House had been frittered away, for no purpose. He because insinuations had been thrown out that he had believed this bad occurred not from want of sincerity some personal feeling in these matters, and that he had on the part of the Noble Lord, but from a want of the considered other interests than those of which he spoke. exercise of that firmness which was necessary in all the —(No, no.) Such had been stated, per vulgum spargere relations of life.—(Hear.) voces amtiguas. He would fearlessly maintain the Mr. T. Duncombe and Lord Ashley rose together, position he had maintained irrespective of any Govern when the latter gave way. - meat which existed or might exist. The Hon. Gentleman Mr. DUNCOMBE then proceeded to address the said he (Lord Ashley) had compelled the House to meet House. He thought it was better to do so before the cn Friday, and then announced his intention of aban- Noble Lord, as he would probably have to make some doning the Bill. Why, if the Hon. Gentleman had been answer to the amendment he was about to propose. and in the House on Wednesday, he would not have said also to the statements that had been made by the Right that the House was taken by surprise.—(Hear.) Hon. Baronet opposite. If Ministers had made a House Again, the Hon. Gentleman said he had asked for yesterday, it was his intention to have given notice of time to make up his mind ; he had done no such thing ; the amendment he was now about to propose. He par- he had stated what course he intended to pursue as to ticipated in the surprise of the Hon. Gentleman who had this Bill, but of course he could not say what course he just sat down, and also in his expressions of regret at would take oa a Bill that was not yet introduced.— the course the Noble Lord had thought it right to pursue. (Hear, hear.) If he could see the Right Hon. Baronet's He (Mr. Duncombe) had fought with the Noble Lord Bill on Monday morning, be should have no objection to in the ranks which he had commanded, up to the present come down to the House and state the course he in moment, and it certainly was extremely to be regretted tended to pursue with regard to it immediately after the that, in the very moment of victory, he should have sitting of the House.—(Hear, hear.) He did not know adopted the course he had pursued.—(Hear, hear.) The that be had any other point to refer to, as he did not amendment which he was about to propose would wish to detain the House on matters that were personal take from those who had voted with him the to himself. But he must say that he did not think the charge of being inconsistent. He thought it would advice of the Hon. Gentleman to discuss this question be better that he should now re a d th e amendment with calmness was very applicable to himself.— he intended to propose. It was a s follows : (Hear, hear.) This he might say, that in all the That after the words, " for the purpose of being discussions on this question, he had.maintained his discharged," to add the words ;—" With a view, tranquillity up t 9 this time, and he could assure the house that that tranquillity was not only external hut internal. He had never felt angry or exasperated with any one gentleman opposed to him, and indeed if he had he must have been one of the most unreasonable and ungrateful Members who ever sat in that House, for he was sure that no Hon. Member had ever received from all sides of the House, and from every Member in it, such constant and unmerited kindness and courtesy. But they would allow him to say that he did implore the House to stand by its recorded decision on this question. He declared that no earthly consideration whatever should turn him from the course he had endea voured to pursue, and in pursuing it he cared not what personal consequences might fall on his own head. Mr. B. COCHRANE said the circumstance of the Noble Lord not having been in the House while he ad dressed it, might excuse him for having misrepresented what he (Mr. Cochrane) had said. He totally denied that he had insinuated that there was any understanding between the Noble Lord and the Government. He de clared his belief that the Noble Lord was perfectly sin cere, and he begged the Noble Lord now to withdraw that expression "insinuated." He would not have in sinuated such a thing, even had ho believed it. But he certainly did believe that the Noble Lord had committed a great error in judgment. Lord ASHLEY could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he would withdraw any expression of which he complained. He explained that he did not impute to the Hon. Gentleman the having charged him with com ing to an understanding with the Government, but, as he was reported to him, to have said that he (Lord Ashley) did not press on the measure from a sort of sympathy for the Government. be done to the authority of the House, were the best suited to the treat interests which he had so much at heart.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with his Noble Friend near him, that if the Government were not permitted to withdraw the Bill which they themselves introduced. they would say they were not treated with that courtesy • to which the executive government was entitled.—(Hear, hear.) The question would be then changed. Instead of arguing the question as a legislative one—as affecting the hours of labour—it would be changed into a question of confidence in the Government. Therefore he concurred with his Noble Friend as to the course he adopted, and considering the minority against him on the question he thought he could not have acted otherwise than he had.—(Hear.) He differed with the Hon. Member for Finsbury in thinking that the Noble Lord had disappointed those whose case he advocated. As far as their interests were concerned, he thought the Noble Lord had taken the most wise and prudent course.—(Hear, hear.) Ile did not attempt to influence his Noble Friend, and if he came to the opposite course and opposed the withdrawing of the Bill, he should give his vote. He now came to a very different question, which was themode in which the Noble Lord proposed to deal with the Bill which was to be brought in. The Government had already got rid of the whole of the decisions of the House by a course which, though it might be convenient in itself, was the least fair that could be adopted.—(Hear, hear.) It would therefore remain for the Noble Lord to consider in what way he wished to have the issue tried. He was sure the Noble Lord would do it in such a way as to make it a proper question of legislation, and that be would bring it before the House as a House of Parlia ment—because, let them recollect, after the doctrine of the Right Honourable Gentleman when in oppo sition, and which it seemed he now followed in Government most consistently—that Acts of Parliament were not passed by the Queen's Most Ex cellent Arajesty, by and with the advice and consent of the confidential servants of her Majesty, but by the advice and consent of the House of Commons, in Parlia ment assembled.—(Hear, hear.) What we have to con sider with respect to the Bills brought forward, and which may be hereafter enacted, is, whether we can take upon ourselves the responsibility of passing these provisions into a law—whether these will, or will not, beneficially affect the great body of the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen have no right to escape from the responsibility which attaches to them as Members of Parliament, merely by saying, it is a very great hardship that persons of thirteen or fourteen years of age should be obliged to labour twelve hours a day, and yet, at the same time, consider themselves as forced to agree with a Government which puts forward a diffe rent opinion. He did not think the Government had any right to make this a question upon which their in fluence must be ascertained, and upon which Members of Parliament should shut their eyes to the merits of the question, forget the responsibility of their position, and say they had such confidence in the present Executive, and such dislike to a change, that they must with draw that support from the Bill which they would otherwise conscientiously have given.—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord John Russell) must declare thus his opinion, because he saw that this question of responsibility of Members of Parliament was undergoing great change in the manner in which it was put forward. He had understood in the first instance that the Government, as was their peculiar duty, and as would be most conve nient to the public, would consider the subject with the best attention, and, having done so, frame a Bill in a careful manner; then bring it before the House that its provisions might be fully considered as by . a legislative body they should be; and that these provisions might be affirmed or negatived, as the case might be. But it ap peared from the statements of the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, that hereafter, when a difficult question was to be considered, and that the Government were dis posed to say, "We think this so detrimental to our views, so injurious to our influence, that our power must be exerted, and we must call upon our supporters to vote with us, regardless of the merits of the question itself," hon. Memb e r s were no t t o b e p rom pt e d in their votes by any statements that might be made in the course of the debate, but as they wished the Government to be maintained, and no change to take place, they must vote for a twelve hours' clause instead of ten.—(Hear.) He feared such was the notion that prevailed on the benches opposite—a notion which, he feared would be detri mental to the character and usefulness of that House, and even to the Constitution itself. He did not think it was for the advantage of the country that the Govern ment should consider itself bound to carry every mea sure and every provision which it presented to Parlia ment.—(Hear, hear.) He had heard that doctrine stated by some, and especially by the Right Hon. Gen tleman, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and by the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, when sitting on these benches. They were then dis posed to require more than perhaps could be prac tically effected. If that House was about to come to a decisive vote, and show its want of confidence in the Ministry as an executive, then it might be considered as a question of party support ; but with respect to questions affecting the whole body of the people, on large legislative questions, he hoped that that House would maintain its legislative authority, and not vote merely as puppets, at the will of the Ministers.—(Hear, hear.) Having stated these opinions, he would not say a word as to the merits of the Bill itself ; and, as his Noble Friend had come to what he (Lord J. Russell) consi dered a wise decision in the course he had taken on that evening, he trusted he would steadfastly persevere in the same course.—(Cheers.) Sir ROBERT PEEL said he quite admitted the just distinction which the Noble Lord had drawn between the functions and responsibilities of individual Members of the House of Commons and the functions and respon sibilities of members of the Executive Government. The Noble Lord said that the members of the Govern ment were immediately responsible to the Sovereign for the advice which they might give—that they stood in a different position to the Sovereign with Members of the House of Commons, and that it was incumbent on the House of Commons well to weigh the merits of each question, and to consider whether or not it would confer practical benefit on the country. The Noble Lord admitted that the members of the Government, although they stood in a certain relation towards the So vereign, and had certain peculiar duties, yet he did not seem to consider sufficiently that the members of the Government had the same privileges as other Hon. Members, and were bound by the same obligations, and that it was necessary for them, in their capacity of legislators, to see whether or no they would be responsible for the practical consequences of of certain acts.—(Hear.) If the Members of the Govern ment doubted the policy of certain measures it was their duty and their privilege to consider such measures in the capacity of Members of Parliament, and to give their advice to Parliament, and to take their course in that individual capacity. The Noble Lord said, and he freely admitted, that in many measures the sense of the Legis lature ought to prevail ; that if no great principle was involved--that if no very dangerous consequences must be apprehended, the Government ought not to call upon Parliament to support them, nor stake their existence upon carrying such a measure. But they ought to pay a certain deference to the will of the majority. The Noble Lord was not always of this opinion (and he was not disposed to speak in a tone of personal asperity). The Noble Lord, he said, had not always been disposed to act upon those principles, as, for instance, in the Eccle siastical Courts' Bill. Lord HOWICK said he had, on a former evening, expressed a very strong objection to the withdrawal of this Bill. He wished now to state why he concurred in the course which the Noble Lord was now about to take. His Noble Friend had, two or three evenings ago, informed him, that he had ascertained that if he resisted the discharge of the order he would be in a small minority. He thought that, under these circum stances, it was necessary that the Noble Lord should defer to the wishes of his supporters.—(Hear, hear.) Stilt, he must say, that, in his judgment, the course taken by her Majesty's Government was anything but respectful to the House. What was it which they asked the House to do ? They asked them to discharge the order for proceeding with the present Bill, stat ing that they would afterwards bring in a new Bill. This Bill, though it would have a new title, would be the same in substance as the old one. Like that Bill, it would introduce the system of relays with regard to children, and the regulations with regard to education. Like that Bill, it would impose restrictions upon the labour of grown-up women and children; and, unlike what the House determined, it would provide that the period of labour for young children and grown-up women should be twelve hours. The effect of the course which her Majesty's Government had taken would be that without any division, with the tacit consent of the House, they would reverse the former division, and this by an indirect and altogether unusual proceeding. The Government virtually defeated the decision of the House, and would place them once more in the situation in which they were before they began this discussion, or began to divide. Now that was a most strange course to pursue. If the Government thought they could in duce the House to reconsider their decision, their proper course would have been to have moved the recommittal of the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) But, in order to gain some advantage, and in order to do exactly what they had succeeded in doing, they threw confusion into the ranks of those who were in favour of a Ten Hours' Bill. Her Majesty's Government, by these means, had brought them into the same situation they were in before the de bate began. He thought that this was a most extraor dinary course ; and he could not but express his regret that the Noble Lord seemed to have deserted those who went along with him in resisting the withdrawal of the Bill. Supposing that in Committee his friend should carry his proposal—why, her Majesty's Government might repeat the manoeuvre they had just performed. Now, as to the inconsistency of the two divisions that had taken place, he thought that of no importance whatever, because if the House had only made up its mind what amendment it was prepared to support, an end would be put at once to that incon sistency. He thought from the course that had been pursued in the House that a compromise was intended— that the House, having stated that it would not adopt a Twelve Hours' Bill, or a Ten Hours' Bill—that the medium between the two would have been taken, and an Eleven Hours' Bill passed. Now, he should have thought that the Government would have adopted a wise course if they had brought in such a Bill. He firmly believed that if a Bill reducing the hours of labour to eleven had been passed it would have met with cordial support. In his opinion, a reduction of wages would be the con sequence of a diminution of the time of labour ; but he thought it would be less than the Right Hon. Gentleman supposed, and he (Lord Howick) thought it would be quite consistent to support the clause under that belief. This was in itself an evil, no doubt ; but the question here was a choice of two evils—one was a reduction of wages, the other that the continuance of labour for twelve hours broke down the strength of those who were sub jected to it.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") That was his (Lord Hot Nick's opinion ; he was no judge on the subject, and he only derived his opinion from the inspectors of factories, on whose reports the Government acted, and who quoted the authority of medical officers, that a perseverance at labour for twelve hours was too much for women or children. These were the two evils, and he confessed that he would rather see a reduction of wages than a con tinuance of labour for twelve hours.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it his duty to waive his own individual opi nion in deference to the opinion of his Noble Friend and of those who acted with him—of course, therefore, it was impossible for him to vote for the motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury. He would wait till the new Bill was brought in, to discuss the principle upon which he thought the clause of his Noble Friend was necessary. Sir R. INGLIS said that the fault committed by his Noble Friend, if any, was a fault of omission. He had not stated, he thought, with sufficient distinctness what line he intended to pursue with regard to the motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, but 'he had every belief that his Noble F r i en d intended to give his motion a decided negative. He wished they were all able to follow the example of his Noble Friend, for he had never introduced into discussion anything like excite ment.—(Hear, hear.) He regretted he could not say so of others.—(Hear, hear.) This was not a party ques tion, but it was of a character which excited feelings higher than one of party would.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that the example set them by his Noble Friend would be followed by them all. He regretted that such an apple of discord was thrown amongst them as the proposition of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, which, though it was not inconsistent with the course he pursued, yet it was inconsistent with the understand ing upon which his Noble Friend addressed the House a few evenings ago. With regard to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Bridport, he did not under stand that Hon. Member to insinuate anything against his Noble Friend, but merely that he had not carried his principles forward with such sternness as the Govern ment had carried them. Mr. ACLAND said he was one of those who, feeling the great responsibility which attached not only to those in office but to every individual Member of Parliament, upon this subject, had made up his mind to vote with the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire, and he did so from the general feeling that this question was not to be dealt with exclusively upon humane or commercial grounds, but upon the ground that it should to considered in both points of view. —(Hear, hear.) Es was inclined to adopt this course, in consequence of speeches from his side of the House, in which he thought there was too rigid an application of the principles of political economy. He did not understand the senti ments of contempt which had been cast upon those who adopted a middle course, and were in favour of eleven hours.—(Hear, hear.) lie thought that after what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Leeds, who said that it was the universal practice of a large body of manu facturers to work for eleven hours, such a modification might be adopted. With regard to the position of the Government, he confessed that he was not prepared to place some person in the Home-office, who would execute as well as carry a Ten Hours' Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He knew that taking this course would subject him to per sonal insinuations, but he was prepared to submit to them, because he knew they would be undeserved. The Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire had very clearly shown that this was not a question of principle, but one of detail. He thought that if the hours of labour were to be curtailed, it ought to be done with the good will of the Government, and that if carried it ought to be by those who had to work the measure. He had expressed his honest opinion with regard to the course he had in tended to pursue. He did not suppose that the Govern ment would turn round and say they were prepared to carry a Ten Hours' Bill.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") The Noble Lord did not intend that his clause should come into operation till two years and a half. By that time he hoped that the question of protection to labour would be cleared of some of its difficulties. Lord J. RUSSELL said that before alluding to the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, he would make a few remarks upon the position in which the House was placed by the course which the Government pursued on this question. He thought that in consequence of it, coupled with the motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, the authority of the House of Commons would receive a blow.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt the course pursued by the Government was the most convenient for ,them, but the authority of the House must suffer by it.—(Hear.) He certainly under stood from the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorset shire, that he came to some understanding with the Government that the discussion as to twelve hours or ten hours should be taken on the Bth clause, instead of the second.—(Hear, hear.) The House de cided by two separate decisions on the subject after two nights' debate, separated by Saturday and Sunday, so that there was an opportunity for a full attendance of Members who chose to be present in favour of the Noble Lord's proposition.—(Hear, hear.) There were two decisions on the eighth clause ; by the first the House negatived the proposition of twelve hours, and by the second they negatived the proposition of ten hours. There were three decisions—two against twelve hours and one against ten hours. It became necessary therefore either that the former decision of the House should be reversed, or that it should be avowed, or that the middle course of eleven hours should be adopted. But the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to withdraw the Bill, which would frustrate the three decisions to which the House had come, and substitute for it another Bill, which should continue the twelve hours for those persons who, by two decisions of the House, were to be subjected to no more than ten. It was impossible that this could be done without shaking the opinion of the country gene rally as to the authority of the House.—(Hear, hear.) Why, then, did not the Noble Lord oppose that course ? Upon grounds which appeared to him (Lord J. Russell) to be quite sufficient ; which, while they met 1 .4 e misclnvf and injury which would Lord J. RUSSELL—The majority was on the other side in that question. Sir ROBERT PEEL bogged the Noble Lord's pardon. The measure would not have succeeded. But ho did not mean to taunt the Noble Lord with his former policy. He (Sir R. Peel) was certainly not aware that the Government had on this occasion adopted any unseemly means, or held out any threat or inducement. They certainly had a strong feeling on the matter, and they felt it their duty to persevere. They called upon the House for its deliberate consideration, nor did he apprehend that they were acting otherwise than consti tutionally, even where there was a small majority, in bringing the matter again under discussion, so that Hon. Members might have an opportunity of reconsi dering the subject. Was the Noble Lord prepared to say that the decision of the House was always conclu sive ? If that was the case what was the use of all those stages through which a Bill must pass before it was finally disposed of ? It was nothing inconsistent with constitutional usage in Parliamentary practice to take the sense of the House again on the same question. Now, why had the Government pursued this course? Was the House perfectly convinced of the propriety of the change? Were Hon. Members on the other side of the House quite agreed as to the proposition of the Noble Lord? Did not the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland say he had great difficulty in making up his mind on the subject? Did not the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London himself say, that ho had the greatest doubts on the matter? Did not two prominent Members of the late Government, gentlemen, of the greatest experience —the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Vice-Presi dent of the Board of Trade, express opinions con trary to those which were sought to be carried into law, and declared themselves unfavourable to placing any restraints upon labour as likely to prove injurious to the working classes, and to the commercial interests of the country ? Did not the Noble Lord, at one time, express opinions regarding those very princi ples very different from what ho formerly expressed ? Not that he meant to taunt the Noble Lord for his change of opinion on this matter ; for he was sure it was owing to the result of conscientious change of opinion, and to new lights having been thrown in upon the subject. But the Noble Lord should not imply any censure on the Members of the present Government for the opinions they entertained. But, it was said, why should not the Government admit a compromise, and it was urged that a compromise was often very desirable, in order to prevent this union ; but he (Sir Robert Peel) must say that the policy of such a proceeding altogether depended upon circumstances. The Govern ment approached this subject with a firm conviction that it would not be wise or proper to place any further limitations upon labour —they believed that further restraints would be injurious to commerce, to manufac tures, and to the working classes themselves. A limi tation had been already placed upon the hours of labour for females in factories between the ages of thirteen to eighteen. It was enacted, that they should not work longer than twelve hours. Now, in consequence of this restraint on young females—adult females became more generally employed ; and the Government thought it necessary to apply the same principles to adult females which the Legislature had formerly sanctioned in females who were not adults. He (Sir R. Peel) was adverse to interfere with labour—it had been productive of disadvantage, and he feared would be so. —(Hear, hear.) The House might depend upon it, that the principle of interference with labour in any state was dangerous. Experience had shown them that such interference was rather to be avoided than sanctioned. It was a dangerous precedent. But it was said that if the Government had acceded to a limitation of eleven hours, they would have had a majority, and might have