The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-14 00:00:00

ought to recollect the application of the word "alien" to the Irish. - The LORD CHANCELLOR—WeII, but that was two Parliaments back—( Great laughter.) The Marquis of NORMANBY—That was the best' defence of the expression, then, which it appeared the Noble and Learned Lord had it in his newer to make.—(Laughter.) Well, he must say, he thought it was too serious a subject to jest upon, and he was sorry to be conpelled to think that neither two Parliaments, ncr many more, perhaps, than two Parlia rungs, would suffice to do away with the evil effects it had produced.—( Hear, hear.) And in the days when that ex pression was used—in I , gal—other phrases were used whose effect had scarcely been less injurious. It was the common saying, if not of the Noble Lords then on the Ministerial benches, certainly of those who were their adherents, that the Government of that day was solely kept in office by the Irish. By making this distinction, they were as effectually departing from the principles of the union as any repealer ever did, and the intention t o be implied could only be that they looked upon Ireland as a province, instead of an integral portion of the British em pire.—( Herne hear.) In that opinion he was supported by a very high authority—indeed, no less than that of an honoured friend of his now in the grave. He alluded to the late Baron Smith, father of the Attorney-General fur Ireland, and of whom hereafter he should have a few words to say.—( Hear, and a laugh.) In the year 1833, Baron Smith, not speaking amongst private friends, or even at a public meeting, but from the judgment-seat, bad declared that as long as England was true to the principles of the union, it ought to last, and would last; but should the time arvive when she looked upon her as a province, instead of a part of England—( Hear, hear)—then her independence as a nation would be claimed by her people. Such was the opinion of Baron Smith. But the real fact was, that the Noble Lords opposite were always attempting to act upon a system which must defeat itself—they were always trying to govern Ireland by a minority of her people—a princi ple which never had succeeded, and never would succeed. Was that attempt made in Canada? It was there felt that the only way to secure the affections of the people was to govern through a majority, and not through a minority. And what ever exorbitant pretensions might have grown out of the course of proceeding adopted their, he thought they were more than counterbalanced by the advantages which had been gained. It had been often said that all the influence of himself and his Noble friend behind him, in Ireland, was owing to the patron age being placed at the disposal of Mr. O'Connell. It had been found necessary to place the patronage in Canada, with a very slight reservation, in the hands of those who represented the majority of their countrymen. He would take this opportunity of re!erring to what he had said on this subject on the motion of the Noble Earl in the year 1837. The Noble Marquis then quoted his own words with respect to the distribution of patronage, declaring that though Mr. O'Connell had occasional communications with him, his appli cations on the subject of patronage were fewer than those of almost any other Member of Parliament, whilst he did not in the least bind or control the exercise of his judgment. He did not deny that the Government consulted Mr. O'Connell in reference to many appointments; and with reference to the charge of receiving from him support, he honestly confessed that this was a circumstance which, considering how he carried with him the hearts and affections of the Irish people, formed any thing but a cruse of regret. Such was the statement which he made in 1837 ; and he appealed to his successors, whether the appointments which he had made, whether in the Church, the law, or the police, had not been marked by an efficient discharge of the vario s duties to beperformed.— ( Hear, hear.) He had felt that the great difficulty of go verning Ireland arose from the way in which the Catholic question was carried, the persons by whom it was carried, and the time at which it was carried—being thirty years later than it should have been. It was unfortunate that the Relief Bill should have been carried at the sacrifice of public character ; and with respect to the mode, it was coupled with many provisions which were utterly useless in themselves, and diminished the gratitude of the Irish people. But that question having been carried, I think it unnecessary to advert to the succeeding tears, when I was employed in another part of the world. At the same time he could nut pass over those years in the presence of his Noble and Gallant Friend behind him without rendering a tribute to his zeal in the cause of Irelsrel, and to his love for the Irish people, displayed amidst difficulties from all quarters, and at a time when he was thwarted by those from whom he might have looked for support.--(Cries of " Hear, hear.") One of the great objects of his Government, and that of his Noble Friend behind him, was to purify the administration of justice, and restore the confidence of the people in that ad ministration. The abstract love of justice which Sir John Davis spoke of as animating the Irish people still remained among them ; it had lasted so long, perhaps from its being in Ireland a rare luxury.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) 'I he Go vernment. by the dismissal of the magistrates, struck a great blow at that confidence. It was said to have been done in consequence of declarations made in that House of Parliament. This seemed to have some insincerity, as it was impossible to believe that the Chancellor of Ireland did not know what were the views oh his Government with respect to repeal. When a Viceroy of Ireland was once attacked in that House on some question, he defended himself, by stating that he never read the newspapers.— ( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The dismissed magistrates when charged, might have said the same. Minis ters had occasionally made many declarations on different sub jects—on the Catholic question, on the corn-laws—and those declarations had clever been followed out; nay, the persons who made them had been the first to act against them.-- ( Hear and laughter). The dismissal of the magistrates was an utterly inefficient step; more deliberate notice ought to have been taken. Again, the people of Ireland had confi dence in the stipendiary magistrates, and the first step of the Government was to dismiss ten of them. With respect to their law appointments, again, they were particularly unfor tunate. Who was the first judge appointed? Baron Lefroy, who, soon after the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act, was not allowed to go the circuit, on account of some declara tion he made qualifying his allegiance in consequence of the passing of that Act. Another question, in which the Irish people were - much interested, was that of national education. Yet another judge they anointed was Mr. Sergeant Jackson, who was violently opposed to it. But all sunk into insignifi cance compared with the appointment of Mr. Smith to the Attorney-Generalship of Ireland. At a meeting in Dublin in the year 1637, when all those in attendance were of one party and the same politics as himself, that gentleman was re ported to have said of the Roman Catholics that he was sorry to say that circumstances induced him to believe that they (the Romau Catholics) had very little regard for the sanctity of an oath, and had very little hesitation in violating their consciences. Such a statement as that ought to hare been a lasting die ittalification for any office under Government. If Mr. Smith did not believe what he then said, but had uttered it in the excitement of a party speech, he showed a deficiency of judgment, and discretion, and every qualification which Noble Lords should have sought. in the person to be appointed to such an office as that of At torney-General. But if he did believe it, then he (the Mar quis of Normanby) must say that the unhappy man who entertained such a belief of not only seven-eighths of his countrymen, but also of the majority of the Christian world, was totally unfit for the situation he now filled. It was not his intention to attack Mr. Smith, but rather the Government through Mr. Smith—the Government that had appointed such a gentleman to office. He must say it was highly improper for a Government to have as Attorney-General a person whom they could never raise to the bench ; for it W 23 utterly impossible for any Government ever to raise Mr. Smith to the bench. With respect to the prosecutions and the charge of conspiracy, he only repeated now what he had stated in the commencement of his observations on the subject, viz. that he thought it the ditty of Government, if they had had evidence of seditious meetings, and libels, to have prosecute d directly for those charges, and not to have introduced this new system of a monster indictment with all that accumulation of charges. The effect of it would be to excite in a portion of the English people, who would otherwise he indifferent to the state of Ireland, a feeling that there was unfairness in the con duct of the affair. With respect to the panel of the jury, the only answer that was given to account for the omission of the Roman Catholics from it was, that the slip containing their names had been lost. He thought that the first object in a matter such as this should have been to have impannelled a fair and impartial jury, and could that be expected where there was a total exclus on of Catholics? The Duke of WELLINGTON (emphatically)—Yes. The Marquis of NORMANI3Y would ask, was not this a question between the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland— did not the opposite party appeal directly to the Protestants to come forward and register ? 'The Government ought to have taken special care to have chosen a jury which could not be subject to the imputation of partiality. In support of his opinion, he would read to their Lord ships an extract from the Dublin Evening Muil. The purport of that extract was that all questions resolve .themselves into one of religion arid not of politic., and that the agitation which was now carried on was solely dependent upon religious animosity. Those were the words of the organ of the Tory party. With respect to the formation ot the jury, therefore, he should say that it was most open to the imputa tion of partiality. As to the charge of the Chief Justice cf Ireland, he (tire Marquis of Normanby) was perfectly well aware of the various difficulties by which the Learned Judge was surrounded, but he felt almost deluded into the idea when he was reading the Learned Judge's charge that he was reading tile speech of the Solicitor-General instead. He would not further refer to the conduct of the Judge than to say that it was, happily, usual to find them adopting a very diffetnt tone and manner wheu addressing juries in the courts of England. A Noble Friend behind him had called his attention to a circumstance in which another Irish -Judge shone, in a manner more conspicuous than creditable. On a trial for political libel, in charging the jury, that Learned Judge was reported to have said—et Gentlemen of the jury, this is a most diabolical libel, and that is not mincing the matter."—( Laughter.) Very happy was he (Lord Normanby) to think that a very different tone and manne r prevailed i n the courts of justice in England.--( Hear, hear. ) There were many subjects in connexion with the state of Ireland to which he shotesl have liked to have directed their Lordships' consideration, especially with regard to the appointments made by the Government ; but he thought it would be better, under all the circumstances, to postpone them for the present. Were their Lordships indisposed, at a future period, to grant him an inquiry, at all events he should have an opportunity, in moving for papers, to bring those matters before their Lord. ships and the country. There was, however, one matter which he could not refrain from alluding to at the present mo ment. It referred to a clerical appointment, and was woeli the consideration of their Lordships. It had pleased a Right Bon. Baronet in the other House (Sir Robert Peel), when Yeading a letter of instruction to the Lord-Lieutenant in Ire land, on the subject of clerical appointments, to do him (Lord Normanby) the honour of complimenting him on the judg ment he had shown in his selections. ) Hap pily, he (Lord Normanby) could appeal to that Ijouse, in reference to his appointments, for, on a former occasion, Noble Lords lead expressed their approval of them. lie begged, how ever, to ask Noble Lords on the Treasury benches whether, of all clerical candidates for honours and appointments in Ire land, they held the Rev. Holt Waring to be most qualified, by quiet, unobtrusive hurnility of demeanour, and the duties of his sacred office ?—( performance of Hear, hear. ) In an account -which he had read, in a Govern ment newspaper, of the famous meeting at Hillsborough, it was stated, in the description he referred to, that " in a few minutes the first detachmentheaded by the Rev. Holt Waring, arid preceded b y the union swas now seen descending the hill—a close, dark, intents massjack, ewf human beings, comprising not less than twenty_ thousand men. This, the first detachment, under the Rev. Dean " Lord WHARNCLIFFE—Very like the pari s h priests, -- The Marquis of NORAIANBY—In his zeal to defend his partisan, the Noble Lord casts a slur on the parish priests. Lord WHARNCLIF7E—Oh, dear! Now, go on. The Marquis of NORMANI3Y—" The first detachment under the Rev. Dean having halted, expressed their thanks in warm terms to that gentleman, gave three hearty tzbeers for him, and then, deploying round, took up the position asigned to them." Now he asked Noble Lords was not this military array ? Was it not the church militant in a most dis creditable position, and did the Government prosecute Mr. Waring?—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord, the Seeretary for Ireland, at the time of his election, had repeated the declara tions of Sir Robert Peel on assuming the reins of Government —that the policy of the Government in respect to Ireland should be of a generous and conciliatory cha :racter. This promise was made in 1841, and the only • generous Bill which had been passed was the Arms' Bill.— scteis4rhter.) With reference to that Bill, he thought what ihaeteetaeurred was calculated to revive the apprehensions which -were oe:ginally entertained as to the manner in which it would be executed.—(Hear, hear.) But for the presence of Mr. Gore Joaes, a stipendiary magi trate, the magistrates would have done what the Government which brought in the Bill declared was never intended.—(Hear, hear.) Now, having given this notice of motion, he might be expected to say a few words on some of the topics which had been opened in the petition presented by his Noble Friend, signed by a considerable num ber of the respectable Roman Catholics and Protestants of Ire land. He could not avoid saying that he considered that the present state of the Irish Church required further inquiry, and that, always taking it as the first object, that that Church should be adequate to the wants of the Protestants of Ireland, the whole question should be open for the consideration of Par liament. He thought it very desirable that any distinctions which existed between the two religions should be done away ; and he considered it necessary for the tranquillity of Ireland that the Catholic religion should be placed on a footing of equality with the Protestant. In almost every country where there was a mixed population, consisting of Catholics and Pro testants, the religions of the two classes were placed on equal footing.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt said, at the time of the Union, that it was not easy to say, on general prin ciples, what system of church establishment would be free from difficulty. By many it was considered that the re • ligion of the majority should be placed on an equal footing with that of the minority, but those who applied that principle with out qualification forgot the relation between English and Irish interests. Whilst Ireland remained a separate kingdom, said Mr. Pitt, full concessions could not be made to the Catholics without endangering the stability of the Constitution itself. These words were perfectly consistent with the article of the Union, which maintained that the Established Church in Ire land should be united to the Established Church in England, but used the remarkable phrase—" in like manner as the Church of Scotland." He also referred to the circumstance that it had been said that the establishment of Presbytery in Scotland was a most impolitic as well as wicked thing. There was much in all this that called for their serious atten tion. With respect to the payment of the Catholic clergy, without giving any opinion upon that point, he thought that the present was a most unfortunate moment for such a proposi tion to be brought forward. He was borne out in this opinion by the language used by Mr. Grattan at the time of the Union. He said that the Government of that day was ready to pay the clergy, if they added treason to the people to their subser viency to a Court. But if the clergy were to be paid, it must be by salaries, not by bribes ; they must be paid an income for the performance of religious duties, not a bribe for political apostacy. Without saying that he did not lament their having taken such an active part in the agitation, he thought there was much reason for seeing the principle of Mr. Grattan ap plied. But he could not mention that body, which had been so much abused, without rendering to them his tribute of praise for the activity and zeal with which they had always assisted him in preserving the peace and detecting offences.—( Hear, hear.) It was common to attribute much of the misfortune and crimes of Ireland to the religion of the people of that coun try ; but he thought the misfortunes of the Irish people arose much more from their relations with man than from their relations with their Maker. In no country in the world, in spite of all their privations and sufferings, was there a people among whom the domestic virtues were more universally practised. No, it was the great struggle for existence, which their legislation had not secured for them, from which all the:r misery arose. With respect to the ques tion of the Iri-h franchise, the declaration lately made by the Government was certainly a most welcome inconsistency, after the declarations that had fallen from that party. The number of electors in England and Scotland was 850 000 ; in Ireland it was 150,000, in a population of 8,000,000. If they took the numbers of the Members with respect to the population, the disproportion was the same. ( Hear. ) One of the complaints of the Irish people seas, that their inte rests were neglected and the resources of their country not developed, and that the natural tendency of having the Parliament sitting in Westminster was to promote absenteeism. Those were matters which demanded further consideration. They embodied the complaints of a large portion of the Irish people, who were not prepared to advocate repeal. The number of Members ought certainly to be increased, and the fran chise extended, so as to put Ireland upon a perfect equality with England as respected representation. The other night he had adverted 'in a few words to the Landlord and Tenant Commission. He regretted that something more satisfactory had not been elicited by some of his Noble Friend's remarks on the subject. However, there could be no doubt that the relation of landlord and tenant in Ireland called for some amelioration. It was notorious in the constitution of society in Ireland that the landlord had a monopoly of the means of existence— that he had the means of enforcing his bargains which did not exist elsewhere. He did not recommend " fixity of tenure . ' As the mode of adjusting the question, but he thought that in the course of the inquiry the Government must ascertain what was the most advisable regulation to adopt; the proportion which rent bore to produce in Ireland was that in a farm where produce was 1501. the share of the landlord in point of tent was [OOl., whereas in England out of 300/. as produce, the landlord received for rent 100/. That account was taken from a very able and compendious statement drawn up by Mr. Wiggins, who had beer. appointed to inquire and report upon the subject. With respect to the commission of crime in Ireland, he thought that the time had passed by when certain specific crimes committed against landlords, instead of being attributed to the depravity of indi viduals as they should be, were attributed to the religion of the people. A gentleman, writing on the occasion of the late Finnoe tragedy, had stated that there should not have been Catholic policemen, and that that outrage was a part of a re ligious persecution. Now he (the Marquis of Normahby) was happy to state, what was fortunately the case, viz., that the in dividual who had so distinguished himself in defence of his master on that occasion was a Roman Catholic. He would wish to impress upon their Lordships the idea that the situa tion of that country, in respect to the spread of civilisation, was not so different from that of this country, because there civilisa tion and education were making rapid strides, and in consequence a right thinking spirit of public opinion was being created, and this feeling was not alone confined to Great Britain, but had also extended to Europe generally, the people of which, through the medium of the press, were closely observing the conduct of this country towards Ireland. It was true, that he might be car ried away in expressing his opinions by his partiality towards Ireland, and might be induced to speak more strongly of the wants and grievances of that country ; but still he could calmly say, that any one who (independent of political considerations) looked at the history of that country, must acknowledge that the misery of the country was solely to be attributed to the misrule to which it had been subjected. If their Lord ships were prepared to go on governing through the me dium of a minority of the people of Ireland, and to abide by the result of partial administration of justice, when a prosecution was before the Courts, which vitally affected the interests of the country, and on that occasion excluded from the jury all those belonging to the faith professed by the great body of the people—if they were inclined to exhibit to the nations of the earth the extraordinary spectacle of the finest country—and the most peaceable at present—in a state of military occupation, they would pursue the course which had been followed through centuries of misgovernment, and reject all inquiry ; but if they chose to win the feelings and affections of a loyal and brave people, and to give stability to the empire, and security to the throne, they sh mid redress the grievances of that long oppressed country. The Noble Mar quis concluded by moving, " that this House, having in answer to her Majesty's most gracious speech, assured her Majesty that they entered into her Majesty's feelings, in forbearing from observations on events in Ireland, in respect to which proceedings are pending before the proper legal tribunals, feel it in consequence, to be their duty to take the earliest oppor tunity, when no prejudice can arise therefrom in the minds of the jury, to record their intention to examine into the causes of the discontent now unhappily too prevalent in that country : also, that with a view to the removal of existing evils, and the restoration of confidence, this House look to the development of the only tine principles of a perfect union, by securing to her Majesty's subjects, of all classes and persuasions, in all parts of the United Kingdom, the practical enjoyment of equal rights." Lord NV HARNCLIFFB said that when his Noble Friend yesterday placed on the table of their Lordships' House, the resolutions he intended to submit to their consideration, he confessed he did not understand them, because it did not ap pear that there was any precise mark or object attempted in them. He at once understood the course which was being taken in the other House by moving for a Committee of the ehole [louse, in which, if obtained, resolutions would be intro duced by the Noble Lord who moved for that Committee, charging himself and friends on the present Government with the commission of high and grave offences. There was no thing, however, of such intention in the resolutions of the Noble Marquis ; but what was wanting in this respect in the resolutions was amply made up by the speech which intro duced them.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis undoubtedly had made very serious charges against the Government in his speech. Well, he ( Lord Wharncliffe) was quite ready to meet them.—(Cheers.) His charges were distinctly made—he would meet him distinctly upon them. He would endeavour, first, to meet his charges in respect to that agitation which led at last to a conviction, in the mind of every dispassionate person, that a conspiracy of a most dangerous and illegal character, existed in Ireland. The Noble Lord said that in dealing with this agitation, and with this con spiracy, they had pursued a wrong course from the beginning. He said there were two courses open to the Government. One of these was to allow (as the Government had done, and wrongly done, as the Noble Marquis argued) the meetings to be held, and let them wear themselves out ; the other was to take instant and determined measures at once to put an end to them ; that they adopted a course at first which at last they abandoned without reason. Now he ( Lord Wharncliffe) would prove the Noble Marquis to be wrong in both his positions.— ( [fear, hear.) He begged to inform him that the Government never did suppose, even for one instant, that, by allowing these meetings to go on, they would wear themselves out. They saw from the first that there was danger to the peace of the country from these meetings. They thought then, as they thought now, that the bringing of great bodies of people together, and the trying to force these people on by exciting speeches to a particular line of conduct was as illegal as it was dangerous.—(Cheers). They prepared to stop this agitation and suppress these meetings, but they did so warily and cautiously—perhaps waiting for a good opportunity when their determination could successfully be put in force.—(Hear, hear.) The question was to prove to the satisfaction of a Court and jury, and to the satisfaction of the reasonable and reflecting portion of the community, that these meetings were illegal, and that they ought to be sup pressed. The difficulty was to provide the proof that the meetings were for an illegal purpose. He quite agreed with the Noble Marquis, that to seek for a repeal of the union was not illegal in itself—to seek for that was clearly every man's right who might desire the change; but the offence here was for seeking that legal object by means which most indubitably were of an illegal character.—(Cheers.) The Government had been reproached on all sides by its friends for not sooner acting. They had been called a do-nothing Government for allowing the organisation to proceed to the length which it did before they interfered—but they had only waited until they could effectually act. Their opponents, on the other hand, said, now that they had interfered, " Oh, you should have let the meetings wear themselves out." And had they done so, and the meetings had still gone on (for wear themselves out they would not have done, and well their opponents knew it), then these very persons would have been the first to upbraid and to taunt them for doing so. He said, then, their business, before they did anything else, was to take such time, and adopt such measures, as would ensure success at a blow, which they had from the first determined to give to this agitation. But the Noble Lord blamed them above all for their conduct at Clontarf. Why he did not believe the Noble Marquis knew what he was talking about when he said that this Clon tarf meeting was to be the last. Why, at that very time ar rangements had been made fur holding six or seven more such meetings. Now let it be recollected that, although at Tara and Mullaghmast there had been proceedings of a most unjustifiable character, that those designed to be enacted at Clontarf were of a far worse character.—( Hear.) At Clontarf not only were those attending to be marshalled, but they were to be marshalled in military array—and those who attended on horseback were to be forme i into troops, each one with 'its officers at its head.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear. ) It was true that after these first arrangements had been a pro mulgated fro m th e Corn Exchange,ttheeymw—ere(Hweiatrh,drhawenr.— and Mr. O'Co nne ll h a d repudiated h Another order of proceedings was issued, in which " group" was substituted for troop," and " wards" for "w ardens." Then it was that the chain of evid ence d es i red by thGo- Govern went was perfected—then it was that they knew the time had I arrived when, with sureness and safety, they might pro ceed.—( Loud cheers.) They had then evidence, and evi dence enough, of seditious words and seditious inten tions to complete a charge of conspiracy. A n d when the time had arrived at which they knew they oould safely proeeed, they had had time to bring to bear such a force as might enable the Government to vindicate the law, and put down that vile agitation and conspiracy, without shedding one drop of blood.—(Loud cheers.) Now, with respect to the lateness of the proclamation. The first notice given of the in• fended meeting at Clontarf was on the 28th of September, and at that time the Law Officers in Ireland thought the time for adieu was come. On the 30th appeared the proclamation of which he spoke. As soon as it was issued, it was sent over by post, reaching London on Sunday, the Ist of October. Lord De Grey was at that time in England on account of bad health. He was in the neighbourhood of London, and was immediately sent for to town. He arrived, and a consultation took place of all those Ministers who, being in or near London, could be get together. They determined to place the whole proceedings of the Attorney-General of Ireland before the Attorney-General for England. That learned func • tionary took exactly the sally, vjew as the law officers for Ire land, and Lord De Grey ill quitted . London for Dublin. In consequence, however, of the alteration in the wording of the order for the proceedings at Clontarf, to which he had already referred, it became a matter for consideration whether some alteration would not be thus necessitated in the proclama • tion. On Friday all proceedings were determined cn and adopted, by which an end was to be put to the meetings, and prosecutions commenced against the chief conspirators. It was necessary to proceed very guardedly, in order that they might do so safely and effectively. The moment the procla mation was issued persons were sent into every part of the city of Dublin to give circulation to, and information of it ; and for thirty miles round Dublin, persons were sent on horseback, in every road and direction, to warn the country people of the intentions of the Government. They also took care that they should have a competent force on the spot, and the meeting was prevented without a single accident. Before he proceeded to the trials, he must say a few words of the Attorney-General. He had no acquaintance with him ; before he was appointed he had not seen him—he had not even heard of him.—( A laugh.) It was his ignorance of Ireland and the Irish bar ; but when he was appointed they heard, even from their political opponents, the highest praise of him—that they had chosen the best man they could have taken for the office. The dismissal of the magistrates was not put by the Chancellor entirely upon the question of re peal; but on the declaration of the Ministers in this House. They were fairly answered, and though it had been said that they might not read the newspapers, he thought that such agitators were not likely to refrain from doing so. He then came to the trials, and he defied the Noble Lord to lay his fin ger upon one part of the transaction that betrayed a disregard of justice. With respect to the construction of the panel, it was the traversers who objected to it; they objected to the old one, because they thought it unfavourable to them. It had to be made out by the:Recorder ; there might be great negligenceon his part, but the Government had nothing to do with it. It was true some of the slips were lost, but in whose charge were they ? In that of Mr. Magrath, and, he happened not to be a partisan of the Government, but a Catholic. He then came to the choice of the special jury. He apprehended that the right of challenging the jury was given to the Crown for the purpose of enabling the Crown to strike off such persons as they might think unqualified or unduly bia serf. Now, they had it on the affidavits of the traversers themselves, that two of the twelve struck out were Protestants, ten were Catholics. Of these, one was a Mr. Henrick, and it so happened that, when Mr. Kemmis struck hint off, he was under the impression that he was a Protestant. Another was a Mr. Michael Dunn, he belonged to St. Patrick's parish, and St. Patrick's parish was fruitful in Michael Dunn's ; there were no less that four, and it was believed that this one was biassed. He denied al together that the striking off of the names arose from any feeling that the Catholics were not to be believed on their oaths, but because it was supposed that persons who had already declared themselves on one side were not to be placed on the jury. He hoped they should hear no more of their having a packed jury,since all their object was to secure to the accused a fair trial before God and their country. So much for the trials upon which the Noble Marquis had founded almost all his attacks on the Government. They stood upon their defence here, and he said that this trial was conducted with as much fairness as any trial was ever con ducted. They had done nothing unfair to procure a con• viction, and the jury had only done their duty in returning their verdict against the prisoners. He would leave it to the judg ment of the people of England, who, though they did not actually hear what was passing in that House, wee made acquainted w ith it in a very short time. He would leave it to the people of England to say whether they were nut acquitted upon this point. One word of Mr. Smith, the Attorney-General. He lamented that he should have placed himself in a position in which he could be justly accused of indiscretion ; but he would leave it to their Lordships whether there was not apoint beyond which provocation could not be borne, and whether this gentleman was not sub jected to it ? And now, all thin having passed, the majesty of the law having been vindicated, let them look forward and see what could be done in the way of improvement.— (Loud cheers.) With respect to the system of letting land in Inland, there was a necessity for inquiry; it would be desirable that in letting land, the landlord should do justice tc the tenant. The next great question as to Ireland was that of the registration. With respect to counties, a new consideration of what was considered the beneficial interest, would probably lead to a diminution of the number of vot ers n counties. With respect to the towns, what the Government intended to do was this : at present it was necessary, in order to be able to vote, that the voter should have paid the poor rates, the taxes, the borough-rates, and some other rates. They proposed to remove this restriction, and to enable the person to vote if he had paid only the taxes and poor-rate. With respect to the question of national education, it was con templated to take measures for the better education of masters and mistresses, and also for the better visitation of schools. The next question to which they meant to direct their attention was to alter the existing law so as to enable money to be lodged in trust, to be applied to the purchase of houses and glebes for the Roman Catholic clergy, so that if a person wished to make an endowment of lands to a certain priest officiating in a cer tain chapel, he might be enabled to do so. This led him to the question of religious equality—putting the Roman Catholics of Ireland on a complete footing of equality with the members of the Established Church. Now at the time of the Act of Union, the Established Church was acknowledged by that great instrument, and this country was therefore bound to support that arrangement. It was also acknow ledged, at the time of the passing of the Emancipation Act, and the present Government were not prepared to take any steps that might endanger the Established Church. They would afford every facility to the Roman Catholics, consistent with the maintenance of the Establishment ; but with respect to producing an equality, how, he asked, was it to be effected ? The Noble Lord then referred to the various modes which had been pointed out of producing that result, and stated that the present Government could not give its countenance to any of them. There was one subject which he had almost forgotten, it was that of Dean Holt Waring. His Noble Friend had spoken of that person as having gone to attend a meeting surrounded by a great crowd—a description which would apply well to the manner in which the Romish (and he did not use that term in an offensive way) clergy went to the repeal meetings at the head of their parishioners. But if Mr. Waring did act in that manner, on the occasion of a meeting in favour of the Legislative Union, why, all he could say was that he had acted improperly. Another accusation against the present Government was that the majority of the Irish people were not well disposed to the present Government. lie admitted it. But England and Scotland, which constituted the majority, supported them, and they did not rule by a minority. They had done their utmost to gain their favour ; but they (the Irish people) did not like them, and would net support them. He was glad that his Noble Friend had brought forward his motion, as it gave him an opportunity of stating the views of the Government. They were the Minis ters of' the Crown, and it was their duty to maintain inviolate the union between the two countries, to preserve the authority of the Throne, and they were determined to support her Ma jesty in her resolution to preserve the supremacy of the law. After a few words from the Marquis of N ORM ANBY in explanation, The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that there was much in the tone of the Noble Lord ( Wharncliffe), with whom he was highly gratified, but he regretted extremely that he could not go further, and agree with the greater portion of 'what the Noble Lord had said. He was pleased with the tone of the Noble Lord's remarks, but he could not forget that a similar tone had been often observed before, and that the deeds that followed were by no means consistent with the words. With respect to some of the appointments of the present Go. vernment in Ireland, the Noble Lord said that he had never heard of them, Lord WHARNCLIFFE—I said I had not heard of Mr. Smith, as I did not frequent the law courts. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—The Noble Lord might have frequented the law courts without hearing of Mr. Smith. But he must say the Noble Lord had made a most inefficient answer to the charges brought forward by his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Normanby). The policy of the pre sent Government was to exclude Catholics, and there fore the Irish, from a perfect equality with the rest of the inhabitants of the empire. If these meetings had been illegal, he thought that it was foreign from the spirit and principles of the British Constitution to allow them in the first instance to be holden without reproof, and then to pounce upon the holders of them without any previous notice or intention. He certainly thought that the jury had found a conscientious verdict. Although he felt perfectly convinced that the jury returned an honest verdict, yet be should say that he was sure some of those gentlemen were indicted for a conspiracy had not the slightest notion that they were guilty of it; and he was sure that this was the opinion of the great majority of the people of that country. He should next allude to the celebrated Clontarf proclamation, and he considered that to be, in the manner in which it was issued, most unjustifiable. If the Government could not have issued it at an earlier date than the day before the meeting was appointed to be held, he thought it would be much more becoming of a Christian Go vernment to have allowed one meeting more to be added to the number which they had previously permitted.—( Hear.) If her Majesty's Ministers were determined conscientiously to uphold the present system of national education in Ireland they ought to appoint to Church preferments those persons who would act in harmony with such a system of national edu cation. But he thought it was evident, by recent appoint ments to Church preferment, that those who were thus lately appointed were the very persons most opposed to the system—persons distinguished by their hostility to national education, as at present administered. As long as Government gave their patronage thus, he (Lord Clanricarde) was sure that the system of national education in Ireland could not be properly carried out. With respect to the Landlord and Tenant Commission, it was stated by a Noble Lord that no injustice should be done to the landlord ; at the same time it should be remembered that no iNustice ought to be done to the tenant.---(Hear, hear.) fhe Noble Lord referred to the relative position of landlord and tenant in England. It Nas said that the proportion of rent from the soil in Eng land was one-third of the produce, and in Ireland two-thirds. Now he (Lord Clanricarde) would engage to show that there were tenants in Ireland, not one here and there, but many, very many, andof a class, too, not holding beneficial leases, who had made considerable sums of money, paying cheerfully and comfortably to their landlords the rent agreed upon. He did not allude to farmers having their hundreds of acres, but to _ . cotters renting thirty, twenty, and even twelve acres of land. Now when he knew these facts from his own experience, he, for one, neither would join the outcry raised against the land lords of Ireland, nor permit that outcry to go uncontradicted. Why, had the landlords of Ireland no higher motive—were they actuated by no nobler feelings—their own interest would hinder them from pursuing any course that might be of in jurious tendency to their tenantry. Therefore, he did say that the Landlord and Tenant Commission, having been issued at a time when great crimes had been committed in Ire- land, those crimes being - in connexion with the holding of land, that such was a most rash proceeding on the part of the Go vernment, subjecting the landlords of Ireland—as it did—to _ . imputations of a very serious character, and which they did not, by any means, merit. He would say a few words, and a few only, on the subject of the Poor-law Inquiry, in which was recommended a series of measures which, if acted upon in a combined form, would be of the most essential service in remedying some of the most crying afflictions of Ireland. He alluded to all the remedies suggested, for they were all valuable, but he especially regarded with favour the recom mendations as to emigration and a sustained system of public works.—( Hear, hear.) These reports were in their Lordships library, but he very much doubted whether many of their Lordships had taken the trouble to consult them—he doubted even if any of her Majesty's Ministers in that House had done so.—( A laugh.) Let but those recommendations he put in force conterlsoraneously and on a clear intelligible principle, and they would soon be satisfied that they had hit upon a most efficacious remedy for many of the most deep—seated grievances under which the sister country suffered. In conclusion he would say, that no one could consider Ireland at the present time to be under any civil government whatever, and the Ministry were not going the right way so to place it. The only way in which they now kept it tranquil was by an immense THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 14, 1844, army—that army rendered necessary by their own intolerance and misgovernment.—( Hear, hear.) The Earl of RODEN said, when he entered the House he had no intention whatever of taking any part in the debate, and now that he did so, he was urged to it only by the personal allusion which had beets made to him by the Noble Marquis (Clanricarde). That Noble Lord had charged him with find ing fault, on former occasions, with the late Government on account of the various agitations which existed under them, and of not finding the same fault when those agitations existed under a Government canted on by his own political friends. It was his duty, disapproving as he did of those agita tions, to call t heir Lordships' attention to them, and he had ever done so, without any regard to what Government was in power, if that Government, in his opinion, did not exert its powers to discourage and suppress those great evils. In these respects he had never been influenced by party views, but so'ely by a desire to benefit the country in which he lived. On the very first day of the last session he had given notice that he should put a question to the Ministers on account of the agita tion for the repeal of the union. He had done so, and the mat ter passed by. Towards the close of the session, however, he again found it his duty to follow that course which he always had followed, and to call the attention of the Government to what was going on in Ireland. He could appeal to his Noble Friends behind him as to the consis tent course he hail ever pursued in these mat ters—(Cries of " Hear, hear")—and therefore there was not one single ground for the charge which had then been brought against him. He would now beg to say a very few words indeed on some of the remarks which had fallen from the Noble Marquis (Normanby) who introduced the question. He had listened to his very able speech with great attention—a speech of great talent and much information, with respect to that country with which he had for so long a time been con nected. Throughout the whole of his speech the Noble Mar quis seemed to have taken it for granted that all the people of course pursued by osnru h ernis i gse m en - tdhi Ireland approved of the course he had taken when Lord-Lieu tenant of that country. The Noble Marquis laughed, but that was the drift of all he said. But he (Lord Roden) would tell him that a very large and influential portion of the Irish people differed widely from him in the estimate which he had formed of his own Government, and who now traced the miser able condition in which Ireland was to the unhappy pursued unhappy nr c gs o hu n l aae s pnd i pdgyei language a c cgr d oee they umtnootwvr iy.an. towards fTr oilwerethe now reaping the effect of that wholesale discharge of the gaols—(Loud laughter)—which had been the distinguishing GN feature nobvel ernAominevhains Marquis h a t i ah n de f painful m the Commission of the Peace the magistrates who had made themselves parties to the agitation for the repeal of the nnion. But had the Noble Marquis dismissed no magistrates? Indeed, he had ; and for no conduct which involved or compromised the integrity of the empire as repeal did. One magistrate was dismissed from the Commission of the Peace by the Noble Marquis, simply because his lady appeared in public with an orange riband round her neck. Returning to the subject of the conduct of the present Government, he must say he was one of those who greatly censured them for their inactivity. But after what had fallen from the Noble Lord ( Wharnclitfe) he was willing to admit that he might have been wrong, and that the Government had in the end acted most effectively. There was an old adage, " better late than never," and he was willing to acknowledge that the results of the trial would produce the best effects on the tranquillity of Ireland, and ma terially conduce to the strength and happiness of the empire. The worst of all was that the question of repeal had been made a Roman Catholic question—the effect of which in Ire land had been, to engender the belief among the masses, that the upshot of the whole would be the downfall of the Pro testant, and the ascendancy of the Roman Catholic religion. Helwished to say one word as to the conduct of the Irish Attor ney-General, and then he would no further trouble their Lordships. On the grand jury, in the recent trials, were three 'Roman Catholics, and they of course, before commenc ing their important duties, had taken a solemn oath to keep their own and their fellows' counsel. No sooner was the bill found than one of the Catholics thus sworn to keep his own and fellows' counsel came into the box, and said he was ditaentient to the finding of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Was not this sufficient to make the Attorney-General doubly careful in the striking of his other jury? Had he not been so, after such conduct, people would have said he was not an honest man nor an honest functionary, and that in his heart he did not desire to get a verdict against the tra versers.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis (Clanricarde) having alluded, in somewhat taunting terms to his (Lord Ro• den's) opposition to what was called the national system of education, he would just state in reply that he had taken the course he had done without any party feelings whatever, and solely because by that system it was proposed to rob them of their greatest treasure and their truest blessing—the unmutilated copy of the Bible. The Earl of DEVON said he wonld state very shortly the course which had been adopted by the Commission of which he was the head. On the Ist of December he went to Ireland, and remained actively employed until the meeting of Parlia :nyerT thathasedtyv Parlia ment. The course they had taken to obtain information was to issue circulars to all bodies of jurors, and to every Protest ant and Roman Catholic bishop, requesting them to aid and assist in procuring information ; and he was happy to say that in every quarter they met with most kind answers from all par ties, and all parties seemed disposed to assist them in their inquiry. They had felt it their duty, whilst sitting in Dublin, to exa mine a number of persons there, but they had issued their circulars, by which they had made it known that it was their intention to visit various parts of the country, and to make the examination on the spot. He hoped to be again in Ireland in March to proceed with the inquiry; and the relations of land lord and tenant would then receive their closest at tention. He did not go to Ireland to ascertain whether the landlord was wrong, or the tenant was wrong, but to ascertain what there was in their subsisting. relations which led to such a lamentable state of things. It would be their duty to point out to the Government the best means in their judgment of removing and alleviating the dis tress which pressed down the agricultural population. With regard to the appointment of a secretary, they had chosen one who, though perfectly unknown to the Commission, was well infarmed on the subject of inquiry, and it was but justice to say that they had reason to be _pleased with their choice. The Marquis of WESTMEATII defended the conduct of the Government, and thanked them for the course they had adepted in putting down the agitation. As to the objections with regard to the striking the jury, the Government had no thing to do with it. lie defended the Attorney-General, stating, that he opened his case in a calm and temperate man ! ner ; his speech was a Vain statement of facts—free from any 1 flowers ofeloquence. He thought 105 Members were enough to represent the interests of Ireland; and expressed himself indignant that an English Marquis, having no connexion, by property, with Ireland, should get up and read them a lecture on the state of that country.—( Hear, hear. ) He repelled the insinuations that had been made against the Ir ish magistracy, and thought they did not come from the Noble Marquis with a very good grace. The Noble Marquis had alluded to the increase of the burdens of Ireland caused by the poor-law, but he did not tell them that it was a Whig measure, originated by a very confident ex-Minister—( A laugh) —whose reliance on himself had been very well described by the Rev. Sydney Smith.—(A laugh.) That measure had come to a complete stand still. He had opposed that measure, which was only suited 'o a country where there was a money pay ment for labour. He described the land let on the system of con-acre" to the peasantry as let entirely by the middle-men, and riot by the landlords. He reminded the House that the history of Irish grievances had been entirely, or almost entirely, taken from the great leader of the agitation himself. It was by him the people were told how to think and feel on the question of their grievances, lie knew the people of Ireland, anti he was sure that many of the humbler classes looked for nothing more anxiously than for protection against the extortions of the re p e al exchequer. He described was oo ; he refused t o a ll ow the rent to be the people as quite under the he he control of au stpheenirdepdriebsyts,hiaanudiathhneis,e. had almost all joined t he a g itation . He knew one honourable nn tnot at a of l his conne x i on w i th the clergy, andiVlay e a priest whd was e d ucated on the Conti nent, collected g aita in e his boastedche r influence over the the opinion on the ic n e s oa li en t .e a n s tl a t n hoe a bN d e d na i b t t i ml o e n o a sAt l imaurengainnvi universally r s o da f el ls g ye a r i i n b i e n d g against the policy of the Government with respect to Ireland. This arose from the fact that all Europe took their information and opinions on this subject from the French press, influencedby the Catholics. Ile wished that some one abler than himself would take the pains of informing the people of Europe, by the same means, of the true state of the Protestant interest in Ireland. The only authority on the question at present seemed to be the his sry of Ireland by Mr. O'Connell himself. Their Lordships, therefore, might judge of the degree of authority to be attached to it, as to matters of fact. He concluded by thanking their Lordships for the attention with which they had heard him. Lord HOWDEN said that connected as he was by birth with Ireland he could not refrain from expressing his regret that the Noble Marquis had thought it his duty—or he would rather say had thought it expedient—to bring the present mo tion before the House. As he had brought it on, he (Lord Howden) should feel it his duty to vote against it, not that he did not agree entirely with the Noble Marquis in his wish that Ireland might share every equal right and equal benefit with England, but because he thought his motion was ill-timed, and being ill-timed it was mischievous. It was particularly mischievous at this moment, when he might say that it was backed u p in Ireland b y circumstances wh ich might—he did not say that its ob j ect was to—em ba r rass the Government.—(Hear, hear.) And knowing, as the Noble Marquis did, the acuteness and intelli gence of the people of Ireland, he must be aware that no other result could spring from it. At that late hour of the night, it was not his inten tion to follow the two Noble Marquises through the details of their brilliant speeches. As the Noble Lord on this side of the House had said he should only make some general observa tions—(A laugh)—and these he should confine to a few of the remarks made by his Noble Friends. They were mischievous in this, that they laid all the crying evils of Ireland to the door of the present Government; and that every thing wrong, even to the faults in the management of the late trials, ought to be imputed to them. He had no doabt that his two Noble Friends would give their strenuous support to the motion, from an idea, perhaps, that it was necessary by a parliamentary vote to awaken the fa culties and stimulate the slumbering energies of the Govern ment. They thought, perhaps, they were supported by one man in Ireland, who had never allowed an opportunity to escape, which he could by any chance express his hatred and contempt of their party. It would be disagreeable to himself and to them, and at the same time offensive to the House, were he to repeat the expressions, the course and illiterate epithets— ( Great laughter)--by which that individual had designated the Whig party.—(Cheers.) But, perhaps they would allow him to state something that individual had said of the same party in a festive moment, and as it was of the nature of as anecciete, it might perhaps relieve the tedium of debate.—(Laughter.) Ile said that the party to which his Noble Friend belonged were like old hats that they stopped windows with—(Great laughter)—that they were nothing, but they served to keep the other party out. If the Noble Lords were satisfied with this description, he did not wish to diminish that satisfaction. He hoped the feeling might shed its charming influence over them while they continued to sit on the shady side of the House.—(Laughter.) He (Lord Howde n ) had no connec tion with her Majesty's Government, still he should notice th e the two accusations brought against it • one of them was, that there was a total indifference to the affairs of Ireland in those constituting the Government—that, as far as Ireland was con cerned, it was a do-nothing Government ; the second accusa tion was, that there existed in it an actual hostility to Ireland ; this was asserted by the Radical portion of the opposition party, Now, could any man believe, that at this time of day, and at such a juncture, in the state to which that country had been brought by the inflammatory speeches made both in Irelind and in that House, by persons who were not responsible in situation, and, therefore able to say anything that suited their views. While the Government was responsible for all they did, and anxious lest even their indiscreet expressions should produce mischief, at such a juncture, did not their Lordships think that Ireland must be the last thought at night and the first thought at morning, of any Government whatever ?—(Cheers. ) There could not be a more insidious manner of agitating a high and noble spirited people than by telling them that they were neglected by the Government of this country. Why, at pre sent, two-thirds of the business of Parliament consisted of Irish business, to the exclusion of many pressing matters of their own. He did not find fault with this. He thought the state of Ireland, and the happiness of the people demanded and required all their consideration.—( Hear, hear.) But was it possible to concei ve th a t t h ere was an y object in the minds of theirtheG n o w v n p ernm ea e e n e t — , he wouldevenfor p the nt sak it e eovfetn on the most selfishheir own security, and ground—could they have any permanent object, both for their own welfare and that of England—but the tranquillisation of Ireland and their own consequent security ?—(Hear, hear.) He would ask Chem what could be the use—there might, in deed, be a party use ; but that he would not impute to the Noble Marquis—what use could there be in adding, under any pi etext, agitation to agitation, and embarrassment to embarass ment ?—(Loud cheers.) The wording of his Noble Friend's motion was much more inoffensive than he could have ex pected : nay, he would go further, he believed that it was much more Inoffensive than the Noble Marquis intended it to be three or four days ago.—(Cheers and laughter. ) The Marquis of NORMA Nf3Y—No no. Lord HOWDE Nl—He assured the Noble Marquis he was merely expressing his opinion. He believed that the motion of the Noble Marquis was generated and carried out even to a very protrac' ed period of his gestation—(Laughter)—under the idea that the late proceedings in Ireland would have had a consummation very different to what they had.—( Hear, hear, and great cheering.) But now that the law in Ireland had vindicated herself, by her own right hand, he did hope with his IST, ble Friend, and with the utmost sincerity, that all just complaints would be attended to and removed from that cou:.try, and that its happiness might be promoted by every means. But he believed:that a necessary condition of the hap piness of the people of that country was the insurance of its tranquillity. He had no hesitation in following what hart been said by the Noble Earl who moved the address in reply to her Majesty's speech, though he then highly disapproved of any allusion to such a topic as impolitic, but he had now no hesitation in saying that, that if by any chance, at any future time, any measure were wanted for securing the welfare of Ireland, by giving strength to the Crown and peace to the subject, that call would be responded to. It appeared to him that the people might be divided into two classes, the deluders and the deluded. Among the latter there were many persons full of the purest love of country, and to whom alone was wanting the instinct of self-preserva tion which nature seemed to have given to every other crea ture. For it was his opinion, that though the union was de sirable, it was but a secondary question to England, whereas it was, in his opinion, a question of vital importance to Ireland, for he was sure that if they cut the tie which bound them to England—if England should leave them to themselves, not fifty years would roll over before " that flower of the earth," would be plucked by some not friendly hand ; and that " gem of the ocean," would be set in the crown of a stranger. —( Hear, bear.) He asked their pardon for trespassing upon their time, but there was something so unfortunate in the time chosen by his Noble Friend for his motion, that it forced him (Lord Howden) to express his opinion in condemnation of it. After a few words from the Marquis of NORMANDY and the Marquis of WESTMEATH, Lord BEA UNIONT said that when his Noble Friend (Lord Wharneliffe) sat down, he felt great pleasure and satisfaction at his speech. He felt pleasure at the proof his Noble Friend had given of the intention now entertained (for now was the time) of prop .sing a remedial measure for Ireland ; and this pleasure• was increased by the refleetion that the Noble Lord had satisfactorily exploined a circumstance which had been often alluded to. By that explanation the conduct which he (Lord Beaumont) had thought proper to pursue was justified. The explanation he alluded to referred to the jury panel in Ireland. That explanation rendered him (Lord Brougham) satisfied with the conduct he pursued towards his co-religionists, in persuading them not to attend the meeting which had been called on that subject. He regretted, however, that he must say that feeling of satisfaction was shaken by what had fallen from the Noble Earl ( Roden) opposite. The Noble Earl justified the Attorney-General for challenging the men on the jury -list, nut because they were repealers, but because they were Roman Catholics. The Earl of RODEN said that what he bad stated was that the Roman Catholics were taught to consider the repeal ques tion as a religious question—that if they got the repeal the Protestant religion would be destroyed and the Catholic re ligion established in its stead, and that that being the general opinion of the people, the Attorney-General was bound to take care not to have put into the jury box to try the question any person wbo had imbibed such a prejudice. Lord BEAUMONT—Does the Noble Earl mean to say that if the jury bad consisted of Roman Catholics, there would be no difference in the verdict? The Earl of RODEN would not say that. Lord BEAUMONT justified the Attorney-General in ob jecting to every person tainted with repeal. He would go fur ther. He was not quite certain that a person being a Roman Catholic, might not be considered as a repealer, because some of the repealers had boasted that the majority of the Roman Catholics were with them. But that objection was made to the persons on the list previous to their being sworn. He did not believe that the Attorney-General would imply that they were sworn they would not act contrary. The Noble Earl would not go so far, and that was his (Lord Beaumont's) ground of complaint. With regard to the question itself, he disagreed with his Noble Friend (Lord Hourden), for he thought this was the fittest time for the present motion, when the dignity of the law had beer. vindicated. With regard to the proposition of payment of the Catholic clergy, he could not say he approved of Hear. ) He should briefly advert to the subject of the Commission lately appointed to inquire into the tenure of land in Ireland. Upon that matter it was possible that a spirit ought to be awakened which would extend to England. The seine thing might be re quired atj the hands of the Anti-Corn-law League.—( Hear, and laughter.) He fully agreed in the principle of his Noble Friend's motion, and he thought a more fitting opportunity could not have been selected than the present one to decide upon the; merits of a measure to ameliorate the condition of that country.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Lord CAMPBELL rose amidst much noise and confusion, and said, that it thought it would be much more convenient to their Lordships if this debate were to be adjourned. Lord BROUGHAM said he should most cheerfully assent to the vropo:ition of his Noble Friend, Still he though: that as it was now twenty minutes before twelve o'clock, and as their Lordships were not a very over-worked body— ( Laughter)—he thought that they might afford to devote to the consideration of such an important subject as this their time until at least one, ar perhaps two o'clock ; perhaps they would do so if they did not imagine that some Noble Lords, who might imagine they could enlighten the House upon the sub ject, were abs"nt. _ _ kventnally, upon the motion of Lord CAMPBELL, after a few words from the Marquis of NORMANBY in explanation, and from the Duke of WELLINGTON, concurring in the pro priety of adjonruing the debate, the House stood adjourned to next Thursday. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 13. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'Clock. The Report of the Poor-law Commissioners was presented, and ordered to be laid upon the table. Mr. W. WILLIAMS presented a petition from certain county-rate payers, residing on the line of road between Fish guard and Haverfordwest, eomplaining of the misapplication of trust funds, and praying for inquiry. Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from the Society of Friends, expressing their disapprobation of the practice of voting the thanks of the House to the Army for military ser vices, and beseeching the House to withhold its sanction from all acts of rapine and bloodshed. Mr. FERE( AND presented a petition from the frame-work knitters of Nottingham, Derby, and Leicester, praying the House to appoint a Select Committee to inquire into their grievances. Mr. HUME presented a petition from a place in Scotland, praying that the grievances of the people might be investigated and inquired into before voting the supplies. NORTH BRITISH RAILWAY. Mr. FOSTER presented a petition, praying for leave to bring in a Bill for a Railway between Edinburgh and Berwick. COURTS OF LAW IN SCOTLAND. Mr. WALLACE postponed until the 27th inst. his motion fixed for this evening on the Judicial Establishments of Scot land. DON CARLOS. Lord JOHN MANNERS gave notice that on the 29th inst. he should move a humble address to the Crown, praying her Majesty to u3e her influence to effect the liberation of Don Carlos from captivity. CORN AND COLONIES. Mr. HUTT gave notice that on this day fortnight he should move a resolution, that it is expedient that the laws affecting corn in India, Australasia, and other colonies, should be assimi lated to those now in force in England. SIN DE. Sir E. COLEBROOKE gave notice that on the 27th inst. he should bring forward a motion, to the effect that the demands made by the Governor-General of India upon the Ameers of Sinde were inconsistent with the honour and true pol;cy of this country._________ BUSINESS HOURS OF THE HOUSE, Mr. W. WI LLIANIS gave notice that his dropped motion, notice of which stood on the paper for yesterday, that no new business likely to lead to discussion be brought on in the House aft r twelve o'clock at night, he proposed to bring on on the 27th instant. Colonel RAWDON postponed the motion of which he had given notice till the 27th instant. PARENT AND CHILD—THE POOR-LAW. Mr. FERRAND gave notice that he should, on a future day, move for a copy of the Minutes of the Poor-law Commis.. sioners, which had received the sanction of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, as to the separation of mother and child in the Poor.law Unions. THE BANK. Mr. W. WILLIAAIS moved for several unopposed returns as to sovereigns, half.sovereigns, and the amount of deposits and securities in the Bank of England at certain stated periods. WOOLLEN MANUFACTURES. Mr. ALDAII moved for an account of the quantities and declared value of British woollen manufactures exported from the United Kingdom in the year 1843; need) ing the coun tries to which they were sent. SMUGGLING. Mr. HUME moved for a return of the number of persons convicted on charges of smuggling.—Ordered. ORANGE SOCIETIES (CANADA). Mr. LEADER said that he had a question to put to the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies. One of the pro vinces of Canada being Catholic, and the Catholic religion being established in that province by statute, and cases of vio lence committed by Orange societies having occurred, a Bill was passed during the last session of the provincial Parliament for suppressing those Orange Societies, which Act was, he be lieved, little rtore than a transcript of one passed by the Impe rial Legislature. Sir Charles Metcalfe, the Governor, had re served his consent to that Act, and he (Mr. Leader) wished to ask whether that reservation was approved of by the Govern latent, and whether the consent of the Government was to be refused to that Act ? Lord STANLEY said he had ascertained by inquiries that, on the 9th of December last, Sir Charles Metcalfe did reserve his consent to an Act for the suppression of those associations in Canada. That Bill had not been transmitted to the Govern ment by Sir Charles Metcalfe, and not having any information as to its contents, he could not answer the question of the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. LEADER said this was some time ago, and asked when the Bill would al rive ? Lord STANLEY said there had been one mail since the 9th of December, by which Sir Charles Metcalfe might have trans mitted the Act ; but, in the circumstances in which he was placed, it was not unreasonable to suppose that his time was so occupied as to render it difficult, if not impossible, for him to have transmitted it. No doubt in a short time he should re ceive it, but he did not think the omission of one mail formed any great subject of complaint against the Governor. CHARITABLE TRUSTS. Mr. C. BERKELEY begged to ask the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary of State whether it was the intention of Government to introduce any Bill this session with regard to charitable trusts, and if so, whether any provision in it would relate to ancient charitable bequests. Sir J. GRAHAM said it was the intention of the Govern ment to introduce a Bill on the subject of charitable bequests. That Bill would be introduced in the other House of Parliament. COURT OF SESSION (SCOTLAND). Mr. WALLACE wished to ask the Lord Advocate, in virtue of the provisions of the Act 2 and 3 Vic. c. 36, passed in July, 1839, for the purpose of raising the salaries of the Judges in the Court of Session, and regulating the arrangements ofudicial business in that Court, whether, since the 29th day 1 ofJuly, 1839, when the salaries of all the Judges were raised and made payable forthwith, the sittings of the Court of Ses sion have been extended, for the purpose of " diminishing the arrears of business," which the said Judges were empowered to do. 2dly. Whether any regulations have been passed by Act or Acts of Sederunt, " for carrying into effect the purposes of the above Act," "by diminishing the arrears of business," or otherwise, as the Judges of the Court of Session were em powered to do under the Act. idly. Whether, to his know edge, any Act or Acts of Sederunt have been passed for the above purposes, which may be expected to be laid upon the table of this House this session, in terms of the Act. The LORD ADVOCATE, who spoke in so low a tone of voice as to be scarcely audible, was understood to say, that variou3 powers had been given to the Court, having the ob ject in view which hail bee n stated by the Hon. Member. With respect to the latter part of the question he could not say that such Acts bad been passed (as we understood). MEDICAL CHARITIES IN IRELAND. Colonel CONOLLY wished to ask the Government, if it was their intention to intr. , duce any Bill relative to Medical Charities in Ireland this session. Lord ELIOT (as we understood), said it was the intention of the Government to do so. STATE OF IRELAND. Mr. HUME said, before the Noble Lord (J. Russell) proceeded with his motion, he world remind him of what passed in the last session of Parliament with reference to ad journed debates. He would throw out the suggestion that if a debate were adjourned, it should be adjourned lo a particular hour, in order to allow time for disposing of the regular business of the day before the discussion commenced. In the last session great inconvenience arose from the accumulation of business, and he would suggest whether it would not be possible to avoid that evil in future, by adopting the course which he proposes!. Mr. ROBS said he held in his hand a petition relating to the subject about to be brought before the House by the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London. It was signed by 180 inhabi tant 3 of the town of Belfast and its neighbourhood, some of whom were Presbyterians. whilst the rest belonged to the Church of England. It contained the names of the Deputy-Lieutenant for the county ; of merchants, manufacturers, shipowners. and re spec able tradesmen living in Belfast, of a few members of the legal profession, and of one private gentleman. It set forth that the petitioners were deeply interested in the welfare of Ireland, rnd viewed its present condition with the utmost alarm; observing that the nation was filled with discontent, and that the conduct of her Majesty's Ministers was such as to lead to apprehensions of civil war. The pe titioners considered that the discontent prevailing in Ireland was deep-seated and wide-spread, and that, until its causes were removed, peace could not be secured on lasting foundations. They then went on to complain of inefficient representation; stating that while England, with a population of about 15,000,000, had 471 representatives, Ireland, with a population of 8,000,000 had only 105. In England they said the Church of the many was the Established Church of the land, but in Ireland the very reverse was the fact. In Eng land persons professing the relig'.on of the many were seated on the Bench, and in nearly all important situations; but in Ireland scarcely any Catholics were to be seen in emi nent situations. All these were causes of great discontent. There were other matters of great importance affecting the welfare of Ireland, to which the petitioners earnestly entreated the attention of the Legislature, especially local taxation. The petitioners prayed that the House would take the state of Ireland into its serious consideration, and adopt such measures as were calculated to avert the dangers now impending in that country. Mr. HORSMAN wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. A return of the number of troops stationed in Ireland during the year 1842 had been ordered by the House; but he observed that return, which was only placed in the hands of Hon. Members this morning, was made out in a peculiar manner, by which it appeared that the number of troops withdrawn from Ireland during the last two years amounted to considerably more than those sent to Ireland. He thought as far as he was informed that must be incorrect. Therefore he, wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, in the first place, whether he could explain how far that was the case or not—viz., that the troops withdrawn from Ireland, rank and file, were more numerous than those sent there during the last two years, as from the return it ap • peered that since the year 1841 eight regiments were sent to Ireland, and five regiments of cavalry, and four battalions of infantry, were withdrawn. He asked the Right Hon. Bart. for information, because he was unable to understand the return which was headed ' 6 A return of the number of troops quar tered in Ireland during the years 1833-34, and down to 1840, inclusive." In the next place, he wished to ask whether the Right Hon. Gentleman objected to give the returns down to 1843 ? Sir J. GRAHAM would have preferred that the Hon. Gentleman should have given notice of the question. With re spect to the returns which had been presented to Hon. Gentle men that morning, they had been moved for to enable the No ble Viscount, the Member for Plymouth (Lord Ebrington), to ascertain the number of troops placed at the disposal of h s fa ther, when conducting the government of that country. That five regiments had been withdrawn from Ireland in the course of the time mentioned in the retum for general service, was undoubted. There were five regiments of cavalry arAl four battalions of infantry withdrawn from Ireland, from the Ist of September, 1841, to the Ist of March, 1542. With respect to the other question of the Hon. Gentleman, he had to state that, on the motion of the Hon. Member for Coventry, an order had been given to produce a return of the rank and file stationed in Ireland from the Ist of January, 1835, clown to the Ist of Janu a ry, 184:t. S %I - ALL DEBTS BILL. Mr. ROEBUCK wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite whether the Bill introduced relative to the recovery of small debts, by the Hon. Member for Chester, was brought in with the sanction of the Government ? Sir J. GRAHAM said, so far from it, that the Hon. Member for Chester had brought in his Bill as embcdying a rival scheme to the measure introduced by her Majesty's Government. STATE OF IRELAND. Lord J. RUSSELL than rose, pursuant to notice, to bring forward his motion for a Committee of the whole House to take into consideration the state of Ireland. He said he felt deeply how much he stood in need of the indulgence of the House in the performance of the ardu :us task which he had undertaken. He would not tres pass further upon their indulgence, by making any apology for taking that task upon himself ; nor, however he might feel his own inability for such a task, could he for a moment doubt that it was right that the Huse of Com mons of the United Kingdom should make inquiry into the condition of the kingdom of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) They had before them, notwithstanding the somewhat fal lacious returns presented by the Right Honourable Gen tleman, the notorious fact that Ireland was filled with troops, and that the barracks in which these troops were posted had been fortified. They had heard, too, that morning, of a regi ment of infantry being drawn up in the yard of the Castle of Dublin—that preparations had been made as if the Government were in instant expectation of a civil war, and that the country was occupied and not go verned by those who now held the reins of power. He said, and he said it with consideration, that Ireland was not governed as it ought to be. The Government of this country should be a government of peace, but the present Government of Ireland was a government of force. The King of the French had told the people of that country that Algeria would soon be reduced to a government of peace.—( Hear.) Her Majesty had told her people the something, and yet what was the case? Why the military were circulating through the whole of Ireland, while it was proclaimed that peace was ex isting in the United Kingdom. Was it not curious that it should now present an appearance utterly at variance with true government ?—( Hear, hear.) We have received to-day an account, most extraordinary it was, that the man upon whom the Irish people looked, and from whom they had received, or by whose instrumentality they had received, Catholic Emancipation—( Cries of " Hear, hear") — was it not curious that that man should have been found guilty of a conspiracy, and would, probably, by the Judges of Ireland be condemned to imprisonment ?—( Hear, hear.) Did the House believe, if that circumstance took place, that it would be a guarantee for the peace of Ireland ?—( Great cheer ing.) He could see no hope for the prosperity or the future interest of Ireland in the adoption of such a course. They ought to insure their affections, and by that means they would insure peace.—( Hear, hear, and great cheering.) The consideration of this subject had led him' to venture to propose a question to the nouse, in the shape which he would ultimately state. It had led him to consider the question of the whole condition of Ireland, and he had shaped his question ex pressly for that purpose. He was not about to recur to the state of Ireland during the last year, but he wished to look upon the situation of that country for some time past. He would take it tor granted that it was the wish of the House that the maintenance of the union should be preserved ; but, consistent with that maintenance, he trusted that the House would consider it was bound to do that country justice. Assuming such to be the opinion of the House, he would ask whether the engagements which had been entered into at she time of the union had been all fulfilled, either with regard to existing laws, or to the passing of future laws for the improve ment of Ireland ?—(Cheers. ) And if they gad not, he would ask the House to go with him into Committee, in order to consider the measures which ought to be adopted to reconcile the people of Ireland to our rule —( Cheers.) He would advert to the address which had been presented by both Houses of Parliament to his Majesty George the Third, in the year 1799, just before the union. In that address both Houses had stated that it was their firm persuasion that a complete and entire union between Great Britain and Ireland, upon equal and liberal principles, founded upon a similarity of laws and of constitution, would conduce tothe mutual interest and security of the two countries, and to the allaying of those discontents which had unhappily existed in Ireland— would afford the means of opposing the attempts of the foreign enemy, and would conduce to the stability of the empire. The two Houses had not been content with that declaration, they had further declared that in their opinion it would be for the real interest both of Great Britain and !reland that the principle of the union should be a common enjoyment by both countries equally of the blessings of the Constitution.— ( Cheers.) Now be would ask whether the laws proposed for the two countries had been founded upon equal and liberal principles—( Cheering)—if the laws which had been passed since the union had ex tended fully the blessings of the Constitution to Ireland— (Cheers) —if Ireland was bound to us by a sense of mutual affection and interest—(Cheers)—and if the people of Ire land were united to us by a full enjoyment of the blessings of the Constitution ?—( Hear, hear, and loud cheering). These expressions of their sentiments had not been confined to the address which had been presented by the two Houses of Parliament. They had received the sanction of Mr. Pitt, the Prime Minister of the Crown, when he introduced that measure into the House. In opposition to those who said that Ireland would be subject to a foreign yoke, he asked whether a union, entered into with the free consent of both countries, and upon just and equal terms, could be branded as subjecting Ireland to a foreign yoke? Was it not a free and voluntary association of two countries for the common benefit of both, in which each would have its proportionate weight of importance, which would secure equal laws, reciprocal affections, and which would render them both invincible? (The Noble Lord here quoted the passage of the Roman poet, but made a mistake in the last word, which was corrected by Sir James Graham.) He was glad that the Right Honourable Gentleman recollected the line.—( Cheers, and laughter.) He hoped he would recollect the sentiment.—(L , ud cheers.) At the same time there were given assurances, not by the positive declaration of the Ministers of the Crown, yet by their adherence, that the Roman Catholics would be more likely to enjoy the rights of British sub jects under the union than it Ireland continued to have a separate Parliament. Lord Sidmouth d ec l are d such an opinion , but those hopes were destined t o b e di sappo i nted. But, before he entered upon that subject, he wished to call the attention of the House to another part of the law and constitution of England, namely, the administration of justice. It might be said th a t th e l aws were the same in both countries. Nominally, the Irish had the same laws, and trial by jury existed in both countries ; but was it so in fact? That it was not so was made matter of perpetual complaint in Ireland, and more than once in that House. On one occasion a Member of that House, who in those days was accustomed to represent, with great force and eloquence, the grievances of those who were oppressed, whether in Europe or America, whe white or black—he meant Lord Brougham—stated in that House, in the year 1823, in bringing forward a petition complaini ng o f gr i evances t h at " t h e laws of England esteemed all men. It was sufficient to be born within the King's allegiance to be entitled to all the rights any subject of the land enjoyed. None were disqualified, there was no dis tinction between a natural-born subject and an alien. Such was the liberality of the system in times called barbarous, that even if a man was an alien born, he was not deprived of the protection of the law. In Ireland the law holds an opposite doctrine. The sect to which a man belonged juined to his religious opinions, and the forms in which he worshipped his Creator, were reasons for his not enjoying the sante privileges as his fellows. Such a system was most cruel and unjust."—( Cheers.) Such was the statement of Mr. Brougham, in those days when Mr. Brougham was the advo cate of the oppressed.—(Cheers and laughter.) Was that the statement of a man ignorant of the state of Ireland ? The same facts were stated in most posverfullanguage by Sir M. O'Leg ue lin. in his evidence before the House of Lords, in 1 839 • said he had been in the habit for nineteen years of attending the Munster circuit. On that circuit it was the custom of the i c e s Crown to set aside from the jury all Roman Cad' ih reld all liberal Protestants ; a n d he stated it or belief that this pra c tice saes carr i e d t o a (t r eater i•xtert , td e circuits He stated one case of thi s practice occu ring as late as the year 1834, when Lord Wellesley was Lord-Liruten an % and w' en Mr. 131ackburne, the present Master of the iio ls. woo the Attorney-General. He stated 'hat in one case, n et a pohn e a_ case, 43 persons had been set a s ide, and that 36 of thoie yr " Roman Catholics, and seven of them were Protestants. Amongst them were magistrates and leaseholders, and p ersons of considerable property. He s aid that the practice w as well known, and constantly followed, this men of liberal 0 0. nions, whether R o man C a th o li cs or P ro t es t an ts, had ,cease!l attending the ass zes. that they might not be present when st ir l , l , ° l an insult was offered to them. No w , w e r e these squat laws ? 111 1 that resemble a jury in Kent, Surrey. or Yorkshir e : Let him ( Lord John Russ e ll) ask, aft e r what he had stated, whether the promises hels out by Mr. Pitt had been fulfi lled , ? Were the laws equal—were they administered with impartial., —( Cheers. ) Was it not rattier what Mr. Brougham had,t,ra_.; characterised a, the eistinctien of a sect and a party—of Deio who called themselves Protestants, which, in fact, was n° Was Ireland a political denomination ?—( Loud cheers.) . ny it not, in fact, a supremacy of political Protestants, cor ru r lint the sources of public justice and detrauding the people of had been guaranteed them by the Constitution ?—( Hear' }late And what was the effect of this ? He thought he could s it w it to thorn. Sir Michael O'Loghlin said, "in his ont"i(o.4neet, was a system which was fraughtith the most injurious eui_ar on the administration of justic e in Irelsnd, disturbing 'Tit peace, and depriving the people of the confidence they oug ht to have in her institutions.", Now he (Lord J. Russell) Wo uld ask of the House, could it be otherwi s e—(Cheers) —or en they wonder, if such was the ea se , th a t i n Ireland the re r _ i , classes of the people, rather than r, sort to the regular tri b u n of the country, took any other cours e ra th er than go to th ..: for the settlement of their differences am o ngst thernsolv e : - 0 , even the wild means which revenge and the worst pl it ' ese of our nature would prompt ?—( H e ar, hear.) -1 bad feelings were prompted by the unfair advninis tratia : of justice, and were not so inherent in the Irish character ; many persons wished to prove. He could vouch it, and in suPl in o r f of his opinion he would relate an anecdote, on the authority , Lord Donoughmore, which occurred at th t great Clare eleetioe_. which, in fact, settled the question of Catholic Emancipatli A big, brawny fellow came to the Committee to CO that he had been insulted by a person. "Why," was the renl o " cannot you take your own part ?" You are bigger than L,'! mars who insulted you. Yes," said he, stretching forthooP'n. brawny arm," I could soon have had satisfaction if I had eh been to take it, but all violence and quarrelling has, flu id forbidden by the Association, an d, th ere f o re, c ola° not punish the fellow as he deserved." Now, if a by thus showed obedience to the behests of an Association , was it ? Because he had confidence in the Assoeiation---meo knew the law which had gone forth had been framed bY, w ' °l o' who had the same feeling and sympathies as himself, a nd did not set up the tyranny of a sect as the measure of justice —(Cheers.) This, then, was his first complaint, th a t from , th period of the uni o n up t o th e y ear 1835, there had been od 'told partiality in the administrati on o f j us ti ce . H e might be , that Lord Wellesley was a n i m p ar ti a l G overno r of Be', a- , ea Ho admitted that he was, an d th a t L o rd Angle,Th was the same. But it was th e m i s f or t une o f b o th, that th ° 7, they might have endeavoured they had, unhappily, failed O ri en te , rect the abuses in the Chief S ecre t ar y' s Office.—( ri ti e ic h and loud cheers.) There was th e pl ace in 7 e 'r e el. all bad political passions a n d p re j u di ce s ee n ' i p o sa It was not the fault of Lord W e ll es l ey or Lord Ang - ti o a • that they did so. He would now proceed to another eue!.,..) —the franchise of the people of Ireland.—(H ear, he''lo And he knew that it might be objected, tha t it had been objected in consideri n g th e s t a t e o f Ireland , b .n a they ought not to look to this qu es ti on o f po liti ca l francbis e * tbe power, because it was said it that would not give bread to He hungry, or employment to the unemployed.—(Cheers.) tten, did not admire or concur in the wisdom o f such an se''' . „eh He did not find any record in the history of England for an assertion.—( Hear.) The benefits of a free constitute', were the best works by which they could confer benefits 00 c b free country. In 1792 M r . Pitt, i n hi s celebrated sups on the finances of the country, eulogised gre atly etry principles of Adam Smith, a n d sa id t h a t b ene fit to a CO 'par, was to be found in n o thi ng b u t f ree i nst i tu ti o ns.—( 1 - m e 4 hear.) Mr. Fox, at a su b sequen t per i o d, f o ll owe d in the • line of argument and assertedthat the true privileges of the P e t 7 ta t were to be found in free institutions. It was know n , tre a when men had such institutiotis a greater stimulus wa s . - he st to industry, and the po ores t man vo t t ld l oo k ur n the sic 00 with pleasure and satisfaction. Such wer e the priticiplese;ei which these great men felt th at th e p eo pl e o ught to ru ck the the Constitution of 1792, a nd was h e now to b e told tha t : the a constitution was a farce and that it o ug ht not to exist a_i6csi present moment.—( Hear.) lie wou ld te ll th e present Ml°, p as that the best course they could adopt with respect to Irelaau btr b to secure to every man the e n j o y men t o f equa l r ights, by an d means they could alone teach them to appreciatee 0.) bless the benefits of a free Constituiion.—( Hear, h en s In the year 1793. in a moment of alarm, the Irish parhaul passed she measure whic-• th e y h a d b e f ore re j e cted, and 1- are be the right of voting to the forty-shilling freeholders. , the franchise thus conf er red be came , i n the hands of landlords, a mean s f or filli ng t h e i r es t a t es with vr• dependents. who were brou g ht u p to vote at elections. ton, Dirigenan had foretold that su m s a mo d e o f ca r r ying e le & e at would recoil upon its in ven t ors , an d so i n d ee d it did. _ er e abuses had arisen, a n d p ersons o f ever y shape of politics wale desirous of applying some remedy.—( Hear, hear.) I ° t he year 1829 the Hight Honourable tsentleerian, after, in dea Speech from the Throne, they had been recovem en i o f to agree to measures for the general settlement of the affit d : on Ireland, had proposed a higher rate of franchise. He had gt. Y ote to Ireland what had been generally supposed at the, n ot was a 10/. franchise, but which had Nimes' e h to he in reality a 20/. franchise.—t, Hear, hear.) In" mu i - s e as it was required that the person claiming the franc . ' t „ should possess 101. over and above the usual prope r I, derived from his fr,-ehold or leasehold, as the e,a s ,t i might be. In the Reform Act it had be en intends to reduce the franchise to 101.—(Cheers.) A Noble Lords now a Secretary of State, had blamed him (Lord John Russel!) for any defect which might have occurred in the Reform Bi b ,' No doubt, he had trus'ed much t o hi s N o bl e F r i en d Lor i ': Duncannon, with whom h e h a d consu l te d on '''„ e subject, and that Noble Lord had g i ven it as hi s opinio n, ~ that the object which they both o f th em d es i re d would ". accomplished thereby, but they had since found, that 1001 to the decision of the majority of the Irish Judges, they hoe been in error in the construction which they had placed en w here, '_ clause.—( Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman when he had p ro s posed that change in the franchise, stated that he proposed t ° T nic great facilities for the attainment of it—that a person elaiT i b e it had only to go before the assistant-barrister, re claim were allowed there should be no appeal, but if it wer e sto , jetted then the claimant might appeal to a Judge of of But some years after, not content with the ditaltnu'l:nter the franchise which h a d ta k en p l ace by the ' o t retation put upon it by th e j u d ges o f Irelan.„tell content with the diminution in the number of voters iII had thereby taken pl ace ,— a N o bl e L or d oppos it e , not then g let the Government, th oug h now sitting on the benches 014'1°Ft of proposed a Bill t o correct what he called the ec' 101 registration in Ireland.—( Loud cheers.) Th at Irish was so contrived that by sending the claimant—the Pl°.,(ltrant. voter—from one appeal t o th e o th er —( H ear , hear) --Y miffing him to a great distance, through intricate no sages and by costly doors, it discouraged _ n od °„utrY t o from seeking the franchise, and those only who were fa‘ att ied by the landed proprietors of the country would be e e ffect to enjoy it.—( Cheers.) Such would be the . 0 t he of that Bill. At that time, they, who W ere __'. oc iog Government said, that though Ireland was far from e"il u l a ns all she ought to have by law, yet as there was a period quillity, it wan most desirous to allow the wealth of the ea; w ool'. increase during that period, believing that angry Pa"`"b a te, b c be assuaged, and that animosities would be likely to a,. et of not introducing any question likely to be the se u 'l , , e e;oble vexatious contest into this House ; but the l ne ees' Lord refused to allow this.—( Cheers.) He thought 010 nary to press his Bill at all times.—(Cheers.) A t a pas ons'''' and in all seasons—in season and out of seas they (Cheers.) The last House of Commons decide icooo would entertain that 13111. It was the opinion of ,% p aate Friend of his (Lord Morpeth)—and in mentioning n r ' held he would venture to say, that no man e `i ris th e office in Ireland more desirous of condition of the people o f th a t country—(Loud e cbe e deter was the opinion of Lord M or p e th th a t s i nce the Hoare in jo r mined to entertain the question it would be nesessarY,tnitieo tice to the peopl e o f I re l an d, to propose some c learer otl'a lit!' 1 of the franchise, t o re li eve i t f rom a ll di s pute t o ni slite gation to which, as it existed, it was subject ; a large and exte ns i ve f ranc hi se , an d t o estabh . " oat that new franchise an important system of registra' 'O . : i n to s was said to that ? Why, an indignant refusal to ent er Word' consideration of the subject was given. What of the Right Hon. Baronet the present Secretary of by th e the Home Department ?—" am determined to stay! ion , be Reform Bill.—(Cheers and laughter. ) Let it' Pr()" .. s ar d the t improved when necessary, but I am determined to Kea 1,60 franchise as it stands." Such were the opinions of t he b etatO Hon. Baronet. The Noble Lord opposite went further, sole that . Noble Lord accused his ( Lord John Hussell's3 Friend, Lord Morpeth, of bringing in his Bill e a r ga l°s were triale for f a ll t colours, and false pretences. Such was the charge m a ,' Lord Morpeth. Was he justified in saying that? -- sk yes' . He (Lord John Russell) appealed to the silence for to le d to of her Majesty's G o v ernmen t.—( Ch eers .) He aPP;tlre f their silence, after having put that Bill forward as s T ing party opposition.—(Lond cheers.) But had he not Quee n _ than their silence to appeal to ? Yes, he had the :e n , the . saeech.—k Cheers. ) He had the specific declarati°", p ose"' Queen's name, advised by the whole of her MajestY o f rest s ' Cabinet, that it was not safe to adot nsYst ent e ate""' e tration without, at the same time, adoptingp m ote ,th these franchise.—( Cheers.) Why, then, he looked back an d he lights, and with the experience of their measure', pehl ° the his looked back to 1840 and 1641, and he recalled to ht Lord the time when he said that Lord Moreeth broug B o ma ° Bill under false colours, and he said Catholic Relief Bill, which was , c 1 when th cat holig' pass( Roma a nd cf• insurrection was popular, by which Bill Rom , s e he were made eligib:e to office, and seats in that il et ' r e d by the referred to the measure which was brought forwa have bee in Noble Lord (Stanley), and he asked what would WhY , in the consequence of that 13,11 if it had been carried,, been, In the tirst place if a Ministry such as the present "e",tiseed,__r power, scarcely a Roman Catholic would have been 0 'merev` o f any o ffi ce ; and in the second place, hardly or nine e l i of would have been sent to that House except the_e, he that the. e 000 Protestant landlords.—( Cheers.) The whole of `cheete . o i 1829, in fact, would have been rendered ineffectual.'( _ ;. ta nne t r It would have been in effect a crafty and invidious in i n s r ee repealing that Bill—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord e ativ ise . d e t rt dueing that Bill repeatedly , said that he had b , n it had D o e b l e introduce it. He ( Lord John Russell) believed the N or e recommended by persons more crafty th an _...(C" - us s ed Lord, arid persons of a different na ture. Lo ac e Such, then, was his answer to the Noble Lord, 7 .. ch was his Lord Morpeth of fighting under false colours. _°; 1 0 t h e l o a l ' o, c-mplaint with respect to the state of Ireland , as the Cr n iog chise of that country. And when the :Minister , e a now in office, shrank from the responsibility of Itta a . st e ,.. doctrines which they avowed when in opposition, a the , ' tig ht did the peace of Ireland by such flagrant violation ples of justice, he must say that his confidence were bo there not encourage him in waiting until those measures h bel i e f teat s od under discussion in that House. He had no a footto gO was any intention on the part of Ministers tovglevtl si t thet a n og fair franchise to the people of Ireland. Be ' ns ider, into a Committee of the whole House to c t o he fra" e '' t the he other important matters, the question of h e ar 'a ba- s ub' (Cries of " Hear, hear ")—and let then' . , on the one representatives of the people of Ireland would aY un der th e by f 11 the pr. ject of the franchise. Let them beware lest, _ srep ose .wer of an extension of the franchise, the measOse er r ease d P v o f Ministers, might not be a measure for giving ni t eiect seen 0 of to the Protestant landlords of Ireland, in order i t t ) s „ oni be _ r their choice, and net the choice of the electors, 0 :i t() aeo t i b r c e.. Parliament.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He cam e 0 0 o fficeg in L o rd subject, to the eligibility of Roman Catholicst No ble 1, land. —(Renewed cries of Hear, hear.) then quoted an extract of a speech from Sir ha ve . lie , (The Robert Pee ee" which the Right Hon. Baronet said that it would Cattw oo t better if the penal acts affecting the eligibility of " 1 ." , sea ledt 1 1) Lord Joh n r tre nt -to office had not been repealed at all, than, when Ivy g ee to be practically acted upon. —( Hear.) would ask to what appointments had th l e ie p ( ves ent s tin - t n "l i tg preferred Homan Catholics. They had had the 0 :hl e of a Master of the Rolls, of the Chief Justice Beni Dot i fact, tin n si nce they