The Sun. — London, England, 1836-03-16 00:00:00

saving the revenue from loss. His Hon. Friend had Said, that according to their own principles he could show that they Lad acted in a manner similar to what he now °posed, and gave as an instance the article of wax. His Hon. Friend, With hi s acuteness, should have seen the difference between the two su bj ects, lie came now to the article of cottons. l'he duty was calculated at 2,000,000/. sterling 4 3 er received f rom i t at the Exchequer but 500,000!. all= the r est went in drawbacks; and under all these considerations tall hey came to this—whether for 500,0001. they would undergo the annoyance and trouble imposed, as well as placing im- Pediments in the way of trade, and that for collecting the ex .e,, !:! Is e duty lon an arti c l e ca l cu l ate d to b ring to the Exchequer tZh.: 00,0 00/., but of which the real amount was•only 500,0001. at was th e i r d uty then ? It was some indication What eas "KeIY to be the consequences, that to induce the House to ?gree to the motiop, it was expressly and distinctly stated that I'lt could be but temporary. The tax upon cotton was admitted obe a bad one. Two years afterwards it was found to be so b ad, that his Noble Friend and himself had the satisfaction of v°!lling dow n to t h at House and declaring that they would get rid of of the o b nox i ous tax—and they now felt the full advantage of its certain repeal.—( Hear.) But what benefit for the agri culturists did hi s H on. Fr i end propose. in the imposition of aY of 10/, upon foreign.tallow for a year or two, to raise ex- PeCations which cou ld not b e realized ? Those hopes would disappointed, and those who were now urging on the pre sent question would call loudly for the repeal of a tax so very tlobnoxious as a tax upon a raw material impertant and useful to arge number of the manufacturers of this country.—( Hear.) 13ctmast observe, on the whole view of the case, that a more raortlinary proposal be had never heard of than that of don 'rot Friend, which would in effect be to raise the duty on exported soap to 101., whilst it was well known that it could 'rot now be exported at a duty of 3/.—( Hear.) It was on these lounds " o n. Friend that he was prepared to resist the p ro p osa l o f hi s , a Porte d by the Housecourse in which he trusted h e s h ou ld b e sup - SIBTHORP had not heard a single observation ; 11 , 1 . f rern the Ri g h t H on. the President of the Board of Trade Itle?11 could be 'call e d an argument against the proposal o f l a ; HOO. Frie n d ; w h o, he only complained, had not gone so as he (C o l onel Sibthorp) was inclined to go. The Right 4 °- Gentleman had put this subject in comparison with the Mrapery tax upon newspapers—(laughter and cheers) but he (Colonel Sibthorp) would venture to say that the labourer he gladly throw aside his book, and his newspaper too, if e Were to see'a good sirloin of beef on his table.—( A laugh.) Mr. HAWES supported the motion. This question pre 41',ited a case of sound special exception to a very good gene tpral, rule, which had been well enforced by his Right Hon. „, lend the President of the Board of Trade. At the same I'm; however, he must say, that his Right Hon. Friend had ~e t rayed a very singular want of acquaintance with the prac "cal part of this manufacture. His Right Hon. Friend argued that an increased duty on raw material could not be imposed Without proving injurious to the export trade in the manu factured article. But the case of s oa p - was an except i on to 't ots principle; ' the fact being th a t th e c hi e f export trade in Itn aP was supplied from other raw material than tallow, the 'eater part of exported soap being made from colonial (Cries of" Hear, hear, hear.") Putting an increased duty 'Pon the imported tallow, therefore, could not affect the 'export t ra d e in soap. Right Honourable F r i en d h a d ext gone on to show that the consumer could not be benefited e°Y adopting the present proposal. He (Mr. Hawes) was not repared to say that the consumer. would in every case be uenefited. In the case of candles he admitted that an in eteasecr duty on tallow must cause an increase in price to the waft—incr. By reducing th e d u t y on soap, h owever, he con t.,Rded the advantage must b e cons id era bl e to t h e consumer. Hon. Member then went on to show that although the tot al. amount o f d uty levied on soap was 1,076,0001., the tamount which reached the Treasury, after all the -various ex nses of collection had been paid, was only about 600,000/. Rmaintained, therefore, that the same argument which his ' d e e Hon. F r i en d h ad used some years ago, when reducing Th V upon printed c o tt ons , wou ld a ppl y to t h e present case. it b i trade having been almost at a stand-still for a consider- Joe ° time of late years, - notwithstanding the vast increase' of °llla tion, and the increased consumption in other articles of taken use, and notwithstanding the enormous fall which bad place in the price of the raw material—notwithstanding all these4o circurnstanees, it would be found that the receipts H e z i, th e soap duties had been almost stationary since 1833-34. that ad only one word to say with regard to smuggling, and ei tt 'YU; that that practice had not been diminished by the re ellenta of the duty upon soap. He believed it would be found tpa,eareful inqutry, that the amount of soap actually made in Sland was nearly double what-was charged-for. 1.1"` r • P. BARING said—With respect to the remark of the Member for Lambeth, that soap for exportation was ti t4 rlY Manufact ure d f rom co l on i a l o il an d not frem tallow, /t as an argument wh i ch went aga i nst himself.—( Hear.) t e :ad be en sa i d that the reduction of the duty on soap had s ite 4 , 0 no advanta ge , i nasmuc h as t h e consumpt i on b a d b een itorst'Y stationary for a series of years. In order to show how botlnded the assertion was, that the consumption of soap had the n ln , s et eased on the lowering of the duty, he would only state th of a respectable witness who was examined before kee°lntnission, and who alleged " that a much !tatter and k.„° economical kind of soap had . of late been used, and con (lesent,lY, a much larger quantity of real soap consumed."— ss o %) This witness also stated, that half as much soap again p os e _ dbe consumed, if there were no excise. For the p.ur el' of clearing up all doubt upon this matter, he would just eP it ien the average' consumption of 1828, 1829, and 1830, ' ll ar • t ie ed with that of 1831, 1832, and 1833, was 517,0001b5. nur eh ar , ; (l soap, and 695,0001b5. of soft soap ; whilst if the con , nf f,"„ e a of 1834 was compared with the average consumption 10, 0 ' 48 , 1 829, and 1830, it would be found to amount to ..„41910,0001b5, of hard soap, and 698,0001b5. of soft soap. tie t ler, hear.) He begged of the Hon. Gentlemen con. affcee„",with Ireland to reflect how the proposed measure would „ if e The argument addressed to the representatives I ,he c n ,,g ; l aed Was, that they would have an equivalent for raising land psi of Candles on the reduced price of soap. Now Ire gee.,,,"`u a duty neither on soap nor tallow ; and the cense both of the change proposed would be, to impose a duty on ivrtnose articles in that country.—( Hear, hear.) Ce p , • WA RBURTON—This proposition involved two dis lhie..questions ; first, the remission of the excise duty on soap ; h e "ett, the imposition of an additional duty on tallow for reodProteetion and benefit of English agriculturists. The av e : ed io which the agriculturists sight relief was at length and the plot which was obscurely hinted a . t in the th er „ -I ng of the session was now, for the first time, disclosed. Posh,: te at a mea sure , the e ff ect o f w hi c h wou ld b e, b y im the -15,a tax on t a ll ow i mported from foreign countries, to ra i se tw e. ll l l . ! ir ee on a ll tallow 71. a ton, when it was notorious that t h ird f & c f. the tallow con sume d was h ome , an d on ly tine turins°reign production.—( Hear, hear.) Thus the agricul- Uoverptvenld besrelieved to the extent of 700,000 7 ., whilst the rejt'inent would receive by the imposing of the duty on fo wit% thacllow only 380,000/. This, he owned, was consistent the !Tian views expressed at the beginning of the session as to ee.r, In which the agriculturists would obtain relief as atteil - wan his own suspicion at the time that their plan for i tne it i v n . g, thaty. object would be by taxing the . rest of the corn 'aws ( near, hear.) So long as the policy of the corn pre,,o_:s. attempted to be maintained, and any measure was nJust'(l for the benefit of the agriculturist, by doing an act of it h le e to the rest of the community, he would always feel Prop l o s sit t hitY to raise his voice against it.—(Hear.) Let a Bea sa I °l l be made for changing or taking off the excise duty ut 8 a nd did not say that he would . not vote for t ePosi e he found thct question mixed with that of 4 er lt 44: duty on tallow, he felt bound to resist the pre has Lord 11 * quite addressed the House for a short time but 1,11 inaudible in the Gallery. logeridet CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER felt eeasid cr ° e ,express his views on such a subject, because he ,ertir eent u it of importance that the opinious of the Go elrehht on a measure of so peculiar a nature should be dere& throughout the country, and carefully consi 1111ith b Y, the House.—(Bear, hear.) These were objects Ivhi e h Z! s tlitl not be attained by any other than the course t o. a o i' had taken. But so anxious and so cautious was lie that in ti e l alling on the House for any decision on the question, res c h„. e schedule moved for in Committee to-night, the resolution le e and duties now in force were proposed to be con oiliin "' t 0 [le an, h ear, hear.) H e had said that he was un- t p h e teresr:vs untilhe thet opinion of the Hou se t a k en on t h e quest i on s thebe period when, on a r ev i ew o f t h e w h o l e in r r st to country, it could be dete rm i ne d w h at was di sc i o ?ne ; and if he could have abstained altogether kit h t een one his opinions on the stamp duty, it v . rould ttlth th more acceptable to himself, and more consistent nt b P ii r i I ,neiples which he had laid . down for the fulfil. a t the duty. On the same principles he was anxious 4(.ldd q ue stlen of the reduction of the duty on soap ReaeralLle ielt Perfectly oren to he considered when the or the Preposition as to the manner in which the revenue aeuver,tiel:°_lltrY should he made up, was submitted. If, how t PPortetiP,rernt motion were pressed to a division, those who 4 7 i.rt i cipate . e ere fairly liable to the imputation of being anxious , es s , ~h report of the Committee sitting on agricultural ° 4l ' thcsj—whlorlear.) Could there be any sequence in the ideas 47 Posic, professed to afford relief to the agriculturists by th, 4. 0 : t G,sty which would rot, on their own statement, bone iwhich .. e 1 t!essed class amongst them (the wheat growers), ord et , would take 2s, or 33. out of the pockets of the people did n _u_ make take return of ls. to the revenue ?—( Hear. ) fat!ided interest, otmean for a moment to depreciate the claims of the ,!,Rnea r_ towards which he entertained feelings of un -144.04.1ect t le l ct and deference, to a due share of the relief ttlianNl that 115ointry from taxation but it should be borne or the wis.l9terest had been alealready benefited by a re- I linti lt ° I . the h I o e of the duty on candles, and one-half the the on h a d _ d uty on soap. The seconder of the present lamrchlissiortidly admitted that the result of it would be tr txa ; but that Part of his rent in favour cf . the occupier of this It.ii4t. to whieh as not a Principle for affording relief from he would assent. He was desirous that he the sti°ll--not f emi ss i on .0 an excise duty on foreign tallow, but of out in m ade l o i .l the duty on soap—should be reserved until li ot a . ec ord 1. 18 ger.ieral statement, when, if a case were made to t : l les it ,„ to tao'accejoislth the view of the Hon. mover, he would l otio n adopti on L k , it. But at present he could not consent th c cO O l p r i cci a motion which would tend to a great vio the e turner Pie, and which must entail great irjustice on b e Anesti o ',;—( Cheers. ) Not wishing then to prejudge sist~n et the dut y desiring d •nied kith yon soap, and not that it should ,jet be deemed . another question which he felt bound to re sit, It but fair, just, and reasonable, that the sub tle I.l,\4,,oareserved for future consideration.—( Hear. ) Plai N PE EL c equer • EL did not thi n k t h e Chancellor of r cot w hich ri ghtly underst oo d t h e nature of the coln had b a d tn..e Right Hon. Friend who introduced the a vail 'or e i t :`_ . e ,% It was that the Right Hon. Gentleman la c eele s er ,:i_ue l (l be known what would be the amount of 4 re ? nri hi s t o " , and of the public engagements, given a lletie n of .Y,s e ll Part, and- the part of the Government, that tanip duty should be granted. This surely was a premature discussion and decision SD far as the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Government were concerned, though on the present motion he strongly reprehended the course which had been pursued, as tending s to prejudge the question of the duty on soap—( Hear, hear.) The charge, then, of promising relief to any particular interest before the whole state of the public revenues was submitted to the House was one which, however anxious the Right Han. Gentleman seemed to escape, he could not relieve himself. He must say, then, . that if the Right Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward this motion conceived he had a prima facie case, he was per fectly justified, after the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman with respect to the Stamp duty in bringing.it under the consi deration of the House. But at the same time he must say that he thought the principle of such a mode of proceeding so and such an exception from the ru7e, so open to public. in convenience, that he could not agree to follow the example of the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exche quer.) He adhered to that principle laid down by the Right lion. Gentleman, and he condemned his departure from it. It was because he thought that every interest had a right to be heard, and its claim fairly considered, witheut any positive en gagement being entered into with any particular class, that be felt bound to oppose the present motion.—( Hear, hear.) For this reason he could not consent to increase the duty on candles. The case of the duties on tallow did not constitute one of those cases for exemption which would justify him in departing from the established principle. Would the agricul tural interest benefit by an augmentation of the protecting duty ? Certainly, unless the proposition was extended to foreign oil, it would not. Ile was likewise to consider how the proposition might affect the labouring interest, and whether the injury it might be to that interest would not go near to counterbalance the advantage which the agriculturist might gain from it. Now it was well known that during many hours out of the 24, persons engaged in factories were obliged to work by candlelight, sometimes upon their own accounts and as frequently upon that of the factory employers.. To them, therefore, any increase in the price of their candles would be a great and pressing hardship, and one of which, from the fact of its pressing more particularly on the lower than the middling classes of society, would give rise to frequent and urgent complaint. Mr. PELHAM denied, most unhesitatingly, that the agri cultural interest was actuated by those motives of selfishness so lavishly attributed to them in the course of the present discussion. That body asked for relief of the burdens which so Oppressed them, but, in doing so, they did not seek to de tract from the cl a im s o f any ot h r class of the country. He did not consider the proposition-was likely to effect much for the agriculturist, but, trifling as the boon was, it would be something to him. Mr. CURTE IS said that if the Hon. Member for Lincoln pressed his motion to a division, he would be obliged to vote against him.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. HANDL E Y replied—he only asked the House to do that for the agricultural interests which the Right Hon. Gen tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had that evening an nounced he intended to do with respect to the Stamp Duties on Newspapers. The House then divided, when there appeared— - - - For the resolution 125 Against it ... ... 195 Majority for Ministers 7O The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the [louse adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock. NEWSPAPER STAMPS. The following Petitions were presented last night*for the Repeal of the Duty on Newspaper Stamps : Inhabitants of Lincoln—Bermondsey—Holborn'and vicinity —Kettering—Southwark—Bethnal-green—St. Andrew Hol born—Dundee—Working Goldsmiths and Jewellers of Lon dm—lnhabitants of lloxton—Chairman of a Meeting of Non- Electors of Newcastle-upon-Tyne—lnhabitant Householders of St. Pancras—St. Pancras, Soho—Bow and Bromley— Aldgate—lnhabitants of Lower East Smithfield--London (three Petitions)--St. Margaret and St. John's, Westminster (two Petitions)—Henry Vincent—lnhabitants of Sunderland —Ropemakers of Rotherhithe and Deptford—lnhabitants of St. Luke, Middlesex (two Petitions)—Strood—Epsom— Brighton—St. Giles in the Fields and St. George Blooms bury—Bradford (Wilts)—Anchtergavdn—Type-founders of London—Working Classes of Rayleigh, Rawreth, and Wick ford—lnhabitants of Tiverton—Norwich—Members of the Cheltenham Mechanics' Institution—Members of the Society of Free Inquirers of Paddington—Members of the Brighton New Road Literary and Scientific Institution—Members of a Society at Bath for protection of Municipal and Parliamentary Rights—Members of the London Carpenters and Joiners' Literary Scientific and Social Institution—Members of the Booksellers and Newsvenders Protection Society—lnhabitants of Mansfield—Walsall—Great Bloxwich and other places ; Members of the Mechanics' Reading Room, Forfar—lnhabi tants of Loughborough—Wandsworth—llfracombe—Bramp ton Cockcrrr.outh—Berry Brow and Armitage Bridge— Hamilton—Ardee—Fen wick—Beith—Newcastle Emlyn and Atpar Emlyn—Carmarthen—Ashburton—Saint Clears and Llanfihangel Abercowin—Dover--Glasgow—Mayor of Ips wich—Shipowners, Merchants, and others of South Shields-- Drogheda—Poplar, Rotherhithe, and other places—Haselbury —Stoke-under-Ham—lnhabitants of the City of London, agreed upon at a public Meeting held at Guildhall—lnhabi tants of Hawick—Frome Selwood—Leicester—Hammersmith —Kilconqubar—Wellingborough—Tunbridge Wells—Tidd Saint Giles—Old Kilpatrick—Operative Masons of Greenock —House Carpenters and Joiners of Greenock—Traders of Greenock—lnhabitants of Edinburgh—Masters and Members of the Manchester Society of Typographical Printers—lnha bitants of Newcastle-upon-Tyne—Nottingham—Liverpool— Lewes—Bradford ( York)—Sow—Foleshill—lnhabitants of Southwark, convened in public Meeting at the Town Hall— Ryton-upon-Dunsmore—Members of the Surrey Radical As sociation—lnhabitants of Wisbech—Llanelly—Members of the Greenwich Ridical Association—Members of the Finsbury Radical Association—Council of Borough of Louth—lnha bitants of Perth—Kent-road, Houndsditch, and other places— Carpenters and Joiners of Manchester—lnhabitants of Halifax —Brixham—Manchester— Stan wix—Preston-- Carlisle— and Leeds—to lie on the Table. ROUSE OF LORDS, .2VLIRen 15 . cause he remembered that the new system when it was first proposed, excited the attention of the .aleegy of Ireland, lied in answer to jhe elergs , of his coign diocese; the ri - hiSt Itev. Prelate stated that in his opinion no one description of school would be capable of answering all classes of the people ; and that the rector of each parish would be the best judge of what system would hest suit those over whom be was placed, and that he did not suppose that the national schools would supersede those of a scriptural class which. had already been established. If the Most Reverend prelate had found, from his experience of four years, that this new system was the best plan that could be adopted, it would be perfectly consistent in him to come forward and State that his experience had led him to alter his opinion. The mode contemplated by the Commissioner; was that they should have 5,000 schoolmasters in Ireland, and that they should educate the great mass of the population, but he oatild not els , 13-At they could provide for the instruction of so many schools. In that Report there was a total absence of every thing in allusion to religion; and as far as the document went, they might all be Atheists. In fact, he felt assured . that there was not the slightest security for religous knowledge. : of He believed it was the first time that the people this country had ever been led to understand that th e principles of morality could be taught by those w h o were averse to the principles of religion. Hear. In looking at the grounds upon which these Commissioners demanded a large addition to their funds, and a public- exten sion of their powers, they alleged that the system had b een generally approved of by all persuasions in that country. ld Among other statements was one that 140 clergymen of th e Established Church, and 1,379 Roman Catholic clergymen, had given in their adhesion. Now, he had taken the pains to inquire and it appeared from a return, which had been obtained with great difficulty at the end or ast Session, that the fact was, only eighty Protestant clergymen had applied for aid, but as some had applied for several schools, they were reckoned over as so many distinct individuals. e —( Hear, hear.) He repeated, then, that that statement was not only not founded in fact, but contrary to it. One of the main objects •of the system was stated to be to unite children in education of different re ligious denoninations, and to obtain the co-operation of the resident clergymen. He had since ascertained that several of the clergymen of the Established Church included in the list of 140, and which he had reduced to 80, would from a variety of circumstances, be further dwindled down to 40, if their Lord ships would only grant the Committee, which he had taken the liberty to move, for he would show that many of the individuals named in the Commissioners' Report were either not to be found, or had no longer any connection with the Established Church. The Right Rev. Prelate here proceeded to. give instances of the names of 'clergymen being put down in the Report, who were actually not in existence at all. The names of others had been put down as having applied for -- grants for schools, who had publicly come forward, and stated that they had ,never matle any application to the Commissioners. The number of Presbyterian ap plicants was stated at 180, although the fact was the real num ber was only 80. The mis-statements, as he must call them, were the more important, because in them was founded their claim for further grants and powers—because they built upon these misrepresentations the statement that their system was generally received and approved of in Ireland. He hoped their Lordships would not further sanction this imposition. Of the 1,106 schools in operation 713 were applied for by Roman Catholics, and only 19 by Protestants, and although the former had received 5,5251. for building schools, the latter had received from the Commissioners, for this purpose, nothing.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") The Right Reverend Prelate entered into some further calculations of the comparative amount of funds granted for different edu cational purposes to the two religions. It might be said that this was a proof that the system was more approved by one party than the other.—( Cheers.) He was not surprised at that cheer, but he (the Bishop of Exeter) understood that the system was one which was approved of, and would be very beneficial to all parties.—( Opposition cheers.) He honoured the Clergy of Ireland for their determination, in spite of the persecution to which they were subjected, for hav ing, whether mistakenly or not, from conscientious religious motives, refused to give their sanction to the present system. There was one objection he must beg leave to refer to. It appeared by a return made to their Lordships, that, of the number of schools in operation twenty-fovr were under the superintendence of nunneries, monasteries, or other religious bodies, and that these schools had received more aid from the Board than all the aid given to the applications from the pa rochial clergy of the Established Church in Ireland. Now he would venture to put this matter to the Noble Viscount and his friends ; for he was perfectly sure that their liberality did not go so far as to expect the Clergy of the Established Church, or the laity of that Church, would send their chil dren to be taught by monks and nuns in these schools. Now, a single instance of this sort was a violation of the principle upon which this system professed to proceed. If the Noble Duke who cheered him a little while ago would prevail upon his Noble Friend to grant this Committee, he would under take to double the number of 24 beyond those exhibited in the return. He could say that an individual of high character integrity, and close observation, had, from personal observa tion, ascertained the existence of nine others not included in the return. Unhappily the evil did not rest here. These schools had been made the scene of what Protestants were taught to consider gross idolatry. An altar was standing for years in one of the schools held under the superintendence of a monk, where mass was performed in the presence of the children, and in school hours.—( Hear, hear, hear.) This was brought to the attention of one of the Commissioners of Public Instruction, who undertook to represent it to the Board. No doubt that gentleman fulfilled his undertaking ; for subse quently an order cams down from the Board to remove this alt tr. But before this representation was made to the Board, one of the inspectors had frequently been there, and must have heard of the fact, but no notice was taken of it. The curate of the parish finding that the altar was not removed, although an order had teen made for that purpose, he complained, and tl.e monk then told him that he had got special permission to keep the altar in the school till a chapel in 'the parish was ready to receive it—the outer walls of which were only at that time erected. The Right Rcv. Prelate then stated two or three cases where the money granted by the Board of Com missioners foa the establishing of schools ur d the management of monks and nuns, bad been appropriated towards the expenses of a University, and the building of a Roman Catholic chapel. He could prove that in one of these places a dinner was given to a person whose very existence depended on agitation —to Mr. O'Connell. In another of these schools a di,nner was given to the arch-agitator—he meant the so-called Archbishop of Tuam, Dr. M'Hale. In another parish, the schoolmaster went forth at the head of an organised body, in honour of this same Dr. M` Hale, and met him with banners, on which were inscribed the words—" Liberty and Religion." Their Lord ships would understand what was meant by the word " Liberty," when they bore in mind what took place im. mediately after Dr. Miele came fresh—he had almost said reeking—from a dinner of agitation at Team, at which was spoken language, wh'c'e in other times—he would not say better times—would have caused some curiosity on the part of his Majesty's Government. One clergyman rescline there made a representation to the Board on thetubjecte and he received the assurance that the matter should be inquired into. After a second application, the board, without the slightest notice to the clergyman, sent down an inspector: but unhappily for want of notice no witnesses were forthcom ing, and so off went the inspector, and no further notice was taken of the affair. Another complaint was then made, and the clergyman received from the board a simple intimation that there had been an inquiry, and they were satisfied. The clergyman did that which became a man, be requested that lie might see the report made to them by the inspector; but the' Commissioners refused to comply - .with his : demand. lie would go' now to a case which ho believed would appear to the House to be of a grave character, and one which made him confident that he should obtain the assistance of the Noble Marquis below hies in the vote ire now asked. He was told, and he believed he could prove the fact, that in a national school built on the property of that Noble Lord, and under the patronage of the Noble Marquis's agent, that the boys just after the execution of certain persons who had been tried and condemned by a special commission in Queen's county. were found writing as their copy these words—of course set them by the master—" God be with the poor fellows that were haneed at Maryberough." He might be told that this was only a kind and charitable wish. But was there any one of their Lordships who would gravely get up_ in his place and t e ll hi m w i t h a firm countenance, that he thought it was so intended ? Was there any one of their Lordships who was not sure that those words were put before these children to imbue their in. fent minds with disaffection to the law, and make them con sider those min who had justly suffered for their crimes as rnartyis, and to teach them from their earliest infancy to side by the violators of the law, and sympathise with them. The main point, after all, was this—whether the basis upon which this system was founded was a true one or not; whether a combined education of Roman Catholics and Protestants was based on religious instruction? It was stated that certain lessons extracted from the Scriptures were constantly used in the schools. He recollected that Dr. M'Hale declared to Parliament that the use of Scripture for the instruction in these schools was radie.ally wrong and mischievous. Their Lordships would judge, then, whether it was probable Dr. 111' Hale (rho was a member of the Board) would recommend the use of these Scripture extracts. But so from being con stantly uecd, the fact was, that in a large portion of the coun try they were not used at all. In Dublin a monk told a very respectable individual that they rejected these extracts with scorn. And yet a few weeks ago a Noble and Learned Lord reminded him (the Bishop of Exeter) that he had .never been so false a prophet as when he ventured to predict that no Scripture extracts would ever be used. He ventured upon that prediction because the Noble and Learned Lord had, some years ago, called upon their Lordships to believe the word of a Roman Catholic. He (the Bishop of Exeter) did, at the time he made that prediction, believe the word of a Roman Catholic Archbishop, 'when he gave it upon his oath. But he found that he was wrong ; lie found that be bad justly subjected himself to the taunt of the Noble and Learned Lord who first told him that those persons might be believed on their oaths. Dr. M'Hale was asked, before the Commissioners of Education Inquiry, whether there would be any objection to the introduction, in these schools, of portions of the Protes tant version of the Scripture. Dr. 111'1-Tale's answer, upon his oath, was thin I think that if any words attributed to our Saviour wee ° given in any other form than that which stands itt the Douay version, and objection would be made egainet it." Dr. *Hale stated that the Roman Catholics cerald not adopt the course proposed, because they could not permit anything to be. exhibited as Scripture, except in the ferm as it appeared in their own version. This he solemnly swore, and because he did so, he (the Bishop of Exeter) be lieved him..---( Hear-) It would not be said that these Scrip ture extracts did not propose to be Scripture. The volume he held in his hand was declared to contain the whole Gospel by St. Luke, accompanied by passages from other parts of Scripture. It was ? however, rather remarkable that after the his The LORD CHANCELLOR took seat on the Woolsack at he usual hour. STAFFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT. Messengers from the Commons brought up the Stafford Disfranchisement Bill. The Earl of RIPON presented petitions from the borough of Ripon against the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill. Lord HATHERTON presented petitions from Cumber land against the probate clause of the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill. Lord ELLENBOROUGH presented petitions from the electors of Yeovil, Worcester, and Southampton, against the Testamentary Courts in. Counties Bill. POOR LAWS (IRELAND). The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition from the farmers of the neighbourhood of Salisbury, praying for the introduction. of Poor Laws into Ireland. Lord RADNOR presented a petition from a congregation of Dissenters in favour of the voluntary principle. Lord TEMPLEMORE presented a petition from Wexford praying for the abolition of tithes. NATIONAL EDUCATION—(IRELAND.) The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition from a place, the name of which we did 'not hear, praying for a system of National Education in Ireland ; and also complaining of the grievances arising from the grant to the College of Maynooth. He begged to assure their Lordships, and especially his Ma jesty's Ministers, that he did not rise for tl!e purpose of pro moting mere discussion, or from any spirit of hostility.—( Hear. ) On the contrary, his intention was so to deal with the tub ject as should satisfy their Lordsbips and the Noble Viscount (Melbourne) that he bad no other object but what they must have—no other ;duty but what must be that of his Majesty's . . Ministers—the real good of the great mass of the population of Ireland as they would be affected by the object of his motion. In moving, as he should, for a Committee respecting the practical working of the present system, he by no means wished to imply ‘a censure on his Majesty's Government, or on that of Ireland. That the Commissioners had not conducted themselves as they should have done, was he freely admitted, no fault of his Majesty's Ministers ; and they could not be held responsible for the conduct of any Commissioners acting under the Crown or under the authority of the Lord Lieute nant of Ireland.—( Hear.) They were bound to defend • ill the officers of the Crown against whom charges should be brought, and unless there was prima facie evidence to sustain the charge they were perfectly justified in so doing. If the charge which he the Bishop of Exeter was going to bring, or the doubts which he was going to express relative to this commission, or its present line of action, should turn out to be unfounded, he would entreat of their Lordships to dismiss it from their thoughts.---( Hear, hear..) If, on the other band it should appear to have a fair share of evidence to support it, he trusted that their Lordships, and more especially the Government, were called on to promote that inquiry. The Noble Lords composing part of the Government had always resisted any inquiry into the relative number of Pro testant and Catholic children attending these schools. —( Hear, hear.) He believed they were sincere, but be would lay his statements before the Noble Lords, and after having heard those statements, if they still resisted such an inquiry he would not call upon their Lordships for a vote on the subject. He felt that he was only following the dictates of his duty as a Minister of religion in bringing forward his present motion. He intended to move for a select committee to enquire what pro gress the new system of education in Ireland had made towards being the best combined 'system of education for the poorer classes; to inquire whether the funds bad been judiciously administered by the Commissioners; and whether their experience enabled them to say if it •was possible to carry into effect the recommendations contained in their Second Report. He thought it could not possibly be denied that the time for inquiry had come.—( Hear, hear.) The sys tem, when first established, was avowed to be an experi ment in both Houses of Parliament, and by the Archbishop of Dublin, one of the most distinguished of the Commissioners. Their second report contemplated such an extension of the means and of the action of this Commission, that it was the bounden duty of every one of their Lordships to pause and weigh well the grounds on which the recommendation rested. They required a large sum of money during a period of nine years, and 20,0001.. annually afterwards. The sum was large ; but he did not think that or any sum would be large for the purpose of securing the religious peace of Ireland ; but he tild not think that sound religious education could be given under this Commission. The Conk. missioners also avow that they proposed to take upon tb•;:ni selves the e ducation of the great mass of the popule" t i on o f Ireland ; th oug h that Report was certainly sig ne d b y a ll the Commissioners, he could not suppose that it had passed unanimously..—( Hear, hear.) He did tot see how the Most Rev. Prelate, the Archbishop of Dublin, could have as sented to the recommendation contained 3n the Report, be. TtlE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 16, !8 preface declared that the volume contained the whole Gospel of St. fluke, he had ndt gone through tine pages Mare In fotind sery eensiddrable chasm e not.in size but in importance, extending only td tea atones of the first, ehapter of St. Luke. They left out the Ist and 2d chaptefs of St. Luke; and the Ist and 2d chapters of St. Matthew, believing th a t was nothing in them. They were told that one of the Commis sioeers was an Unitarian, and it had been suggested that this was a concession to his peculiar feelings. For one, he di] not belio:e it. He did not believe that individual woul I wish the concession. Ile would not believe that the Unitarian Com mlssidtier was one that upheld all the absurdities and wicked ness of other Unitarians ; but that having been stated as a rea son fur the omission, he noticed it merely in order to contradict it. He must say that this was a mutilated book. It professed to be the whole Gospel of St. Luke, but it was not so. Was it to be endured that these Commissioners should play these tricks with the Word dr Odd, and teach the children that they were taught the whole word of God, when they had these impor tant passages kept from them ? But he would not press this matter further, because he felt this was not the proper place. The proper place was a committee, where he would prove that all the proceedings of the Board, under this sestem, had a tendency to promote the Roman Catholic faith at the ex pense of what the Protestants believed to be the true religion. In seeking this Committee, he could assure their Lordships that he had no intention of proposing the destruction of this system of education. He would state the two points which he thought would go very far indeed to remove the objections to this system, and then all that was necessary would be that the system should be fairly carried into execution. One change he would suggest was founded upon the change made with re spect to the Synod of Ulster, to which Lord Grey assented— namely, that during school hours there should be scripture lessons read for a certain time, at which lesson-hours it should not be necessary that all the children should attend, o: any child attend whose parent made an objection. Ano ther great point was, to take steps to protect the Ronian Ca tholics of Ireland from the tyranny of their priesthood, by in sisting that that priesthood should not do that which all must feel to be in absolute defiance of God's Word, and an act of most unjustifiable tyranny—refuse to permit the people to have any access to the Word of God. He would be satisfied with requiring what Dr. Murray said there could b 3 nn pos sible objection should be done. The Commissioners in 1824 and 1825, feeling the absolute necessity of insisting upon the exhibition of the Word of God to all the children who were going through a course of Christian education, required the Roman Catholic bishops to produce a translation with such notes as they might think fit to put in the hands of Roman Catholic children in all those schools having separate religious instruction ; upon this, Dr. Murray observed that serious difficulty would exist its the way of any arrangement by which Roman Catholic and Protestant children would be allowed to read different versions, and he proposed that one version of Scripture only should be used ; and said that there could be no possible objection to the Roman Catholic children reading the Gospels and Epistles of the week. This in cluded a very large portion of the New Testament; and he (the Bishop of Exeter) thought that if these two points were adopted, they would go very far to remedy the greatest evils of this system.—( Hear, hear.) That which they, as Protest ants, were most anxious to obtain was, that the Roman Catholics should ' be allowed to see the holy volume-!that they should become familiar with it—that they should be taught to know that it contained the word of God and of truth. He assured his Majesty's Ministers that he did not 1(4 to this question as one of party feeling. The Right Rev. Prelate concluded by moving that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the progress which the new system of education in Ireland had made in effecting the main purpose for which it was established, namely, the combined education of the poor community.of that country, Protestant as well as Catholic; to inquire whether the funds intrusted to the Commissioners had been judiciously administered towards the attainment of that object ; and whether the experience of the practical result of their labours rendered it safe and advisable to adopt the recom mendations contained in their second report. Viscount MELBOURNE thought he owed it to their Lordships to state generally the grounds on which he felt it would be out of his power to comply with the motion which the Right Rev Prelate had made.—( Hear, hear.) The principal grounds were briefly. these ; that the appoint ment of a Committee would tend to no good, but to much evil—to disturb the system of education satisfactorily (as.he believed) established in Ireland—to revive religious ani mosities and dissensions, and to interrupt a plan of pro ceeding which had received the sanction (he believed) of every public man in the country, and been adopted by every Government which had existed during the period of the last five years. The Right Rev. Prelate had stated with great truth, that it was a very different thing to oppose a system at beginning, and to interfere with a system after it was estab lished and in actual operation; and that those who might be anxious to oppose a system at the commencement, might very possibly not be desirous of intermeddling or interfering with its progress after it had once been esta b lished. But their Lord ships must consider the quarter whence this proposition came, and the effects which would . be produced upon the public mind in Ireland, when it was seen that a committee of inquiry, whose labours were to be devoted to the improvement of the existing system of education, was appointed at the .suggestion of one of those who were the strongest and most vehement opponents of the system when it was first proposed. —( Hear. ) On that ground alone he thought it would be highly impolitic in their Lordships to accede to the motion which had been made on that occasion. The Right Rev. Prelate stated in the first place that the Archbishop of Dublin, in answer to one of the addresses which had been presented to him, admitted that the experiment was very likely to fail.--(Hear, hear.) But the Right Rev. Prelate omitted to state the reason which induced the Archbishop of Dublin to think it likely that the experiment might fail. He omitted to me ition that the ap prehension of failure in the Archbishop's mind arose from the anticipated opposition of the Romon Catholic populatioe.— .( Hear.) That certainly was not the ground of failure alleged against the system of the Right Rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter) on the present occasion. The Right Rev. Prelate subsequently made what he (Lord Melbourne) must ad i, to be a very fair defence of his Most Rev. Friend the Archbishop of Dublin, when he stated that the experience of the last four years of the working of the system had convinced him (the Archbishop of Dublin) of the advantages attending it—that he regarded it no long er as an ex p eriment, and that he was anxious for its further extension.' That indeed was a:correct statement of the fact—the Archbishop of Dublin did consider the plan to have succeeded—did consider it as in the course and progress of success, as conciliatory to the minds of the people of Ireland, Catholic and Protestant, and as extending the benefits of a sound education, the acquirement of scrip tural knowledge, and an acquaintance with the precepts of true religion to all classes of the community in that country. Upon these grounds lie thought it would be unwise and iris prudent in their Lordships to interfere with the operation of the system, or in any degree to inter not or prevent its pro. gross.—(He w s", hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate relied very muc h upon the second report of the commissioners, from which be 1 ad read extracts, and which undoubtedly opened very large topics of discussion. The Commissioners in that Report certainly took very extensive views of further proceed ings upon the subject. But he (Lord Melbourne) bed al- - ready stated that the Government were not pledged to the re commendations contained in the Report. Their intention in the present year undoubtedly was to propose a large vote for this service than was proposed last year; but if they were going to adopt the system to the extent recommended in the Second Report of the Commissioners, he did not pretend to say that seine further inquiry—some closer examination and investigation would not be necessary. —( Hear, hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate complained that the Repori, _afforded. no .security for the r ligien of those who Were to Ise the iastruc tors of the school-masters. He (Lord Melbourne) should think that the offer of any security upon that point would be utterly superfluous ; for, could it be supposed that a Board so constituted as the Board of Education in Ireland was, in ap pointing officers of such importapce, would not take proper means to secure their being persons of right religious feeling, and of sufficient religious knowledge ?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Viscount here alluded to what he could not help call ing the rather disiagenuous parallel which the Right Rev. Prelate had drawn between the Commissioners and the Mini ster of Public Instruction in tkance ; but in this part of his speech the Noble Viscount was not very distinctly heard in the Gallery. We understood him to contend that there was a vast difference in the .lltuation of the Minister of Public In struction in France and the Commissioners of Educa:ion in Ireland, inasmuch as that the former addressed himself to a country where a great proportion of the population were Roman Catholic, and where the Roman Catholic was the Established religion, whilst the latter, on the contrary, were addressing a country where a great majority of the population, it was true, were Roman Catholics, but where the Ronsan Ca tholic was not the Established religion.—( Hear, hear.) Here was the root of the whole difficulty ; this it was that forced them i to th e a d o pti on o f so man y expe di ents. —( H ear, h ear. ) It was not wonderful that the new system of education should in the first instance have excited some doubt in the mind of the Archbishop of Dublin and others. Four years' experieice, however, satisfied him that it had succeeded in a manner which was beyond all disputation. Ile did not see that the Right Reverend Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter), notwithstanding' the various statements into which he had entered, had laid any grounds for the appointment of a Committee.—( Hear, hear, hear.) All that the Right Reverend Prelate had stated of the misconduct of schoolmastersall that he had stated of the improper behaviour of individuals—all that he had stated of the wrong use that had been made of school-rooms, ad mitteo of a sufficient remedy by application to the Board itself. —( He ar , h ear.) If, after an application to the Board, it were found that a preper remedy was not obtained, it would then be for the e‘.Paight Rev. Prelate to come down to Parliament and to ask tor the adoption of such an extreme measure as that which h e p roposed on the present occas i on . Th e Ri g h t R ev. Prelate had adverted to the statement made by his Noble Friend who opened this question in the other House of Par liament, in which his Noble Friend stated that the Protestant Clergy should in the first instance be attended to in founding; the new sc h ools, and then the Ri g h t R ev. P re l ate proceeded ' with considerable force to point'out the much greater number of schools which had fallen into the hands of Roman Catho lics, compa re d w i th those w hi c h h a d b een g i ven to P rotestan t Minister s . But their Lordships must recollect the circum stances under which the new project of education was esta blished. When his Noble Friend in the other House of Par liament stated that he wished on that occasion to act in con cert with the clergy of the Established Church, lie stated no more than the truth ; but he did not at that time anticipate the bitter and determined opposition with which the plan w a s ultimately rece i ved by the Protestant clergy ; he did not anti cipate an Address, signed by seventeen of the prelates o f Ire land, condemning' the p .— lan, and calling upon the clergy of the Establi s h ment not to act upon it( Hear, hear.) He Lord Melbourne), knew that the Most Reverend Prelate at the head of the Irish Church, had stated, on a former occasion, that the Bishops had much greater I difficulty in restraining the clergy than in exciting them to oppOsition. He ( Lord Melbourne) thought that that was very , likely--.and the Most Reverend Prelate having stated it as a fact, he felt convinced of Its truth but at the same time it I proved how great had been the hostility ot the part of the clergy of the Establishment, and bow little eidriderftil it must thdrene'rU he eonsidered that the result stated by the iii;,:fht Reverend Prelatd tl,reeld have followed such a commence - ment.—( Hear, hear.) He believe 4 that the original hostility of the clergy was fast fading away—that Etta original difficul ties were likely s oo n t o 'be got over—that the feelings of jealousy and irritation which at first existed were rapidly pass ing away. Would their Lordships consent to revive them— would they stir the questiort again—would they call again Into action all those polemical and theological points of differ ence which had been referred to by the !tight Rev. Prelate. (Hear, hear)? He felt satisned that they would not, and ha felt therefore satisfied that they would resist the motion for the Committee.—( Hear, hear, hear. Every body who knew anything of Ireland must be aware—looking to the state of the population in that country,--looking at the great preponderance of the Roman Catholic faith in many particular parts of it—that in the application of any ge neral system of education, many of the schools must be entirely Roman Catholic. The Right Rev. Prelate had well stated that the object of the new systein was to give an united plan of education to Catholics and Protestants. The very strop: feeling which prevailed upon the subject prevented the p'an from being so successful as it might have been at the commencement ; but the best hopes of its success at present prevail .d, and those hopes he trusted their Lordships would not interrupt by acceding to such a motion as that proposed by the Right Rev, Prelate. The Right Rev. Prelate had mew:cried certain schools which were held in connection with nunneries, or within the walls of nunneries. He (Lord Mel-S bourne) held in his hand a letter from one of the Commis skims, Mr. Carlisle, upon the subject, which, as allusion had been made to the matter, he would trouble their Lord ships by reading: The Noble Viscount read the letter, in which it wus stated that soon after the Board was established applications were made in behalf of schools conducted by nunneries, and by lay confraternities of Raman Catholics—that the Board was in doubt as to the views of Government with respect to those schools, and that in conse quence a conference was had with Lord (then Mr.) Stanley as to the mode in which these applications should be treated ; that after a careful considera. ion of the subject—seeing that the class of schools in question was most favourably reported of by the Commissioners of 1826—considering that they came 1 1 under the rule of national schools, and considering also that if their application were acceded to they would come within the control of the Board, whereas if it were refused they would remain entirely independent of it—the Commissioners agreed unanimously that the application of these schools should be received The letter concluded by stating that the number of these schools was not great. That he (Lord Melbourne) thought was a sufficient explanation of the circumstances to which the Right Reverend Prelate had referred. In conclu sion he ( Lord Melbourne) would only repeat, that the exist ing system of education in Ireland was one which had been approved of by almost every Government which had existed in this country for many years past. It was introduced by his Noble Friend in the other House, certainly and unquestion ably a decided friend of the Protestant religion and•the Church Establishment—it was adopted by the late Govern ment, who placed that estimate upon the table which their Lordships voted last year for the support and maintenance of these schools—it was entirely approved of by the present Go vernment, and he thought their Lordships would act most un wisely if they were to interfere with its further progress by adopting the present motion. The Earl of HARRO WBY begged their Lordship to re collect a little how this question came before them. After a great number of different commissions—sitting for a great num ber of years, and proposing a great number of different plans for the education of the people of Ireland—had been ap pointed, Parliament about four years ago adopted the plan which had since been in operation. That plan (taking the words from the mouths of its proposers and strongest sup porters) was confessedly a mere experiment, of the success of which they expressed no inconsideracle doubt. The measure having now been in operation for about four years, could any thing be more obvious, could anything apparently be so little liable to objection, as that Parliament, after having decided on making the experiment, should now employ itself in an inquiry as to how that experiment had been made, and with what success? Many of the plain and simple facts brought forward by the Right Rev. Prelate in support of,his motion had received no answer from the Noble Viscount. They had been told that in many points the money voted by Parliament for the purposes of education had not been properly applied, and that the school-rooms had been appropriated to purposes most directly opposed to their legitimate object. These he should conceive to be strong additional grounds for inducing their Lordships to be fully informed as to whether these facts were correct or not. He (Lord Harrowby) confessed that that statement of the Noble Viscount had in some degree diminished the feeling which he at first entertained that it would be the imperative duty of the House to direct an in quiry of such a nature as that pointed out 'by the Right Rev. Prelate. After the Noble Viscount's statement, he thought he might remain satisfied by resting the whole responsibility on the head of the Government. Lord PLUNKET wished to know whether the motion were not intended as an arrangement of the whole system, or whether (as it professed to be) it was merely founded on some supposed abuses of the system for which amendment or correction was ne cessary. The subject of education in Ireland had been matter of lengthened Parliamentary inquiry for nearly thirty years ; and the report which was made upon the subject so long ago as 1812 was well worthy of their Lordships' attention. The names of the Commissioners by whom the report was made were familiar to their Lordships. They were all at- melted by early feelings to the Protestant Church in Ireland. There was the Primate of Ireland, the Archbishop of Cashel, Dr. Elrington (the head of the Protestant University in Dub lin), Mr. Leslie Foster, and two or three other gentlemen, all of whom had deeply at heart the welfare of the Protestant Establishment ; and they stated in their report principles well worthy of the perpetual recollection of every person who felt anxious for the wellfare and well being of Ireland. They gaited that there was a thirst for learning on the part of the people of Ireland. They stated, with respect to education, what Sir John Davies had so long ago said with respect to law—" Never was -a people," said Sir John, "so anxious for the benefit of equal laws." " Never was a people," said the Commissioners of 1812, "so anxious for the benefit of gene ral education." These two natural wishes of the people of Ireland, notwithstanding all the difficulties which had hitherto stood in the way, he felt were now likely to be `realized— ( Hear, hear, hear,)—and he thanked the Noble Viscount at the heal of his Majesty's Government for having determined on the present occasion not to yield to an application which, if acceded to, might stop the progress of one at least of these desirable objects in Ireland. The question was this : was it possible in Ireland to unite moral and religious education ? It was agreed that they could not separate them. Was it possible, then, that they could unite them ? That question occupied the attention of Parliament thirty years ago, and had been a matter of frequent discussion since. The -great difficulty from the first had been whether the Bible was or was not to be used as a book of education? That ques tioli was decided in 181,2, by the Commissioners t o w h om he had alluded. It was 're-considered by the new Commis sioners appointed in 1824, who came to the same decision ; and the decision of the Commissioners of 1812 was again admitted to be correct by the Committee of dui House of Commons, whose report was made in 1828. Now, how was he to under stead what had fallen from the Right Rev. Prelate in the ,course of the present debate ? The Right Rev. Prelate had stated that there were certain parts of the Scriptures in which it. was impossible that Roman- Catholics and Protestants could Conscientiously agree ; and with great accuracy, and, as usual, with ability, the Right Rev. Prelate hal pointed_out particular passages and points upon which, as he stated, the two religions were directly opposed to each other. - But the conclusion which the Right Rev. Prelate drew from this statement—if it had any meaning whatever—was no doubt very acute, very ingenious, very clever; but if it had any sense or meaning, it was this— that the Scriptures could not be introduced as a book in schools • without becoming a subject of religious controversy. Then he (Lord Plunkett) could not help saying, that lie feared the real object of the Right Rev. Prelate, in bringing forward this motion, was not so much to ohtilin an inquiry into the working of the sys tem, as to arraign tha principle on which the system was i s - a- Wished. After dwelling at some length upon the speech made by the Bishop of Exeter, and after alluding also at some length to the debate which took place in the House of Commons upon the subject in the last Ssssion of Parliament, the Noble and Learned Lord proceeded to say, that if there really were any such eases of abuse as had been pointed out, the proper quarter to apply to for the remedy was the Board of Commissioners. At the same time, when bi 3 Noble Friend, the Noble Viscouet at the head of the Government, refused that night to accede to the proposition of the Right Rev. Prelate, he did not under stand him as saying, that if any particular case of abuse should be made to appear that Parliamentary inquiry was neces sary, such en inquiry should not be granted. But he (Lord Plunlzet) - felt the necessity and prudence of the course which his Noble Friend had adopted of not permitting, under the mask '(he did not mean to use the word in an offen= sive sense) of inquiring into abusess, a notion to get abroad that 'the principle of the present system was to be departed .ftom. It had been stated that the most Rev. the Archbishop of Dublin had considered this measure as a mere experiment that he was not sanguine in his expectations of its success -but that it ought at all events to have a fair trial. Might he ( Lord Plunkett) be permitted to ask whether the plan had had a fair trial ?—( Hear, hear.) It had not for one single day had a fair trial. The Noble Viscount had already stated the active, and he ( Lord Plunket) had no doubt the consci entious, part which the fourteen or fifteen Prelates of Ireland thought it necessary to adopt when it was first proposed to carry the system into operation. Notwithstanding the active part taken by these Rev. Prelates, he ( Lord Plunkett) was still sincerely of opinion that a great proportion not only of the lay Protestants of Ireland, but of the Protestant clergy of that country, were favourable to the progress of this measure. Hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter) had criticised the statement made by the Board of Commis sioners, that 140 members of the Protestant Established Church had addressed them in favour of this measure. The Board never stated-any such thing. The Right Rev. Prelate was perfectly aware of what was stated ; he knew perfectly well that what the Board stated was this ; that amongst the ap plications which had been made to them for relief under this system there were the signatures of 140 clergymen of the Es tablished Church. So there were; that statement of the Board was not only substantially but literally true, because although the names of some of those clergymen were three and even four times over, yet in every instance the duplicate sig nature had been to a separate and distinct applicatio n. If they had d escr ib e d the number of the Protestant clergy in in . favour of th e propos i t i on as grea t er than it actually been, they h a d d one t h e same t hi ng respect to the otheri denomiaation4 ile a gy ;so that the proportion remained the' ' same, and the question rtes not substantially affected. At any rate, he hoped the Right Res'. Prelate did not mean to iusi nuate that the Commissioners did anything which they ha, done for the purpose of impcsition. It was necessary for 'him to advert to some circumstances, in order to show whether the rroard had fair play. It was a matter of public notoriety, that: there had been meetings in the north of Ireland, consisting of many thousands of persons, who were told that the sacred ivord of. Clod had been mu:ilatei, and that attempts erere ' making by the Board to deprive them of their Bible. Was that fair play ?—( Hear, hear.) Under such circumstances, could it be said that the experiment had been fairly tried? - (Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl opposite (who was not so• hostile to the existing system when his Noble FriLeds were in office, as he was at present) had addressed some of these firect ings, the very persons composing which had their I.;7blis in their hands. They were exhorted " To put their trust in Providence, And keep their powder dry." t • At a numerous and respectable meeting of Oranget t kn, in the country of Tyrone, Mr. Brere in the chair, the full.. „ reso lution was unanimously agreed to :—" That as Protestants-, reprobating the new system of national education, we will not (he begged the House to observe the candour and piety of the declaration) listen to any clergyman who supports it." So, the Dissenting clergy in the north of Ireland, who de pended on their congregations for subsistence, were told that they would not be listened to in-their pulpits if they supported • the new system. Again he asked, therefore, if the sys tem could be said to have had fair play ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Their Lordships were aware of the system which - had been formed by the Kildare-street Society. Of that Society Mr. Jackson, an eminent lawyer, was the secretary. Mr. Jackson was examined before the Commissioners of Education in 1826. The same question was then raised as had been just raised - by the Right Rev. Prelate.e k Mr. Jackson had been asked as to the religion of the amasters and mistresses of the schools, and as to the religion of the scholars. He (Lord Plunket) had argued, on former occasions, that it was no part of the duty of the Commissioners to require answers to such questions. He hoped that the Right Rev. Prelate would have the candour to acknowledge that he was not justified in drawing any inference against the existing Board from what he had stated. The s.ard had no right to make the inquiry, and no inference therefore could be drawn against them for their not haviere done so • nay more, they would not have been justified if they had so acted. Let it be recollected that by the exist ing system above 180,000 young persons were rescued from the grasp of ignorance and vice, and were receiving the be nefits of a sound education.—( Hear, hear.) Surely no good man could seriously wish to stop the progress of such a sys tem.—( Hear, hear.) Before he sat down he wished to say one word in vindication of the Roman Catholics from the charge made against them by the Right Rev. Prelate with re spect to the Holy Scriptures. Wbat the Right Rev. Prelate had said, meant that the Roman Catholics denied the authority of the Holy Scriptures, or it meant nothing. Now of this he (Lord Plunket) was sure, that no Roman Catholic, either in Ireland or anywhere else, would deny the authority of the Holy Scriptures. On the contrary, they held them to be the very essence of Christianity; the revealed word of God. , It was true that for their explanation they called in aid from other sources; and in that consisted all that was imputed to them, which amounted to this—that they did not consider that the Holy Scriptures, without any comment or explanation, were fit to be put into the hands of the people. The Earl of RODEN sag that the Noble and Learned Lord had asserted, that where Noble Lords on his (Lord Roden's) side of the House were in office, he (Lord Roden) did not feel the same anxiety on the subject in question as at present. Now the insinuation contained in that assertion he distinctly denied. It was falsely imputed to him that his opinions on the subject had at all varied. With respect to his conduct at the meeting adverted to by the Noble and Learned Lord, he would pursue the same course again to-morrow. The Right Rev. Prelate had distinctly shown that the ground of the existing system was the mutilation of the Scriptures. Of the meeting at Tyrone he did not per sonally know anything ; but he highly approved of what seemed to be the purpose of that meeting. In adverting to the evidence given by Mr. Jackson to the Commissioners of Education, in 1826, the Noble and Learned Lord omitted to state that the Commissioners compelled the Kildare-street Society to make the returns in question. He (Lord Roden) demanded similar returns from the existing board. If ever a case had been brought before Parliament, of sufficient ground for inquiry, it was the case so ably stated by the Right Rev. Prelate. Of this he was sure, that when the accounts of what had just passed in the House reached the public, the general feeling would be that his Majesty's Government were afraid- to meet the inquiry. Inquiry was necessary, to show that the object which the then Chief Secretary for Ireland, now Lord Stanley, had in view in proposing the system, had not been carried into effect. Lord PL UNKET explained. The Earl of WINCHIL SEA must say, in justice to big Noble Friend, that he expressed himself with equal warmth against the existing system of national education in Ireland when carried on under tne late Government as at present. ric (Lord Winchilsea) was not aware until that evening that the grant of 37,0001. to the Irish Board of Education bad been increased to 50,0001. In the Report of the Commissioners they recommended the extension of the grant to a sum nearer 300,000/. than 200,0001. for the first nine years, and the fixing of it afterwards at 200,000/. The Right Rev. Prelate had made out an incontrovertible case, and he ( Lord Winchilsea) should sit down perfectly satisfied that no discussion had ever taken place within those walls so well calculated to open the eyes of Protestants generally as to the tendency of the course which his Majesty's present Ministers were pursuing to the de struction of the Protestant interest in Ireland. Viscount MELBOURNE, adverting to the three supposed conditions on which the Noble Earl had. just declared that his Majesty's Government bad obtained the support of a certain eminent individual; begged leave most distinctly to deny the existence of those three conditions, or of any of those three conditions, or of any condition or stipulation whatever. He begged leave to tell the Noble Earl that his information ou this subject was totally erroneous, and without any foundation whatever. The Bishop of EXETER, in reply; begged leave to with draw his motion. The motion was accordingly Ivithdrawn ; and at ten minutes before nine o'clock the House adjourned. EAST INTIIA. AND CHINA TRADE. Yesterday, whighly respectable meeting of the merchants and others interested in tilt; trade r to India and China, was held at the City of London Tave:, for the purpose of recei ving a Report from the P.ovisional Committee, appointed to draw up rules and regulations for the governance of the As sociation, which has been formed to protect the interests of those engaged in the commerce with the possessions in India and China. W. CRAWFORD, Esq., M.P., in the Chair. The CHAIRMAN stated the objects of the meeting, and said it was very desirable that the Association should go to work as soon as possible, in order that during the present Session of P. rliament matters, which ought to be brought forward relative to the trade, might rccive full consideration. • Mr. G. H. DE LARPENT said that, having been appointed Chairman of the Provisional Committee, it was his duty to read the Report which had been drawn up, comprising the rules and regulations for the future government of the Association. It was necessary for the advancement of the great interests at stake, that the Association should have a Secretary of cha racter and talent who might have weight enongh, should it be necessary, to present memorials to Government to give-effect to the-representations of the AsSociatien. It was proposed to give to the Secretary 3501. per annum for his rand an assistant's services. The total expenditure was calculated at about 600/. per ann. To meet this outlay, they had,. in the first instance, 60 firms who had subscribed in favour of the formation, whiell had been increased to 63 establishments. The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to state the amount of subscriptions to be paid by each, which would give an income of 560/. per annum. - It teas proposed that an: entrance fee should be paid, amounting to 101. for each firm and 51. for single individuals, to be appropriated as a reserve fund, which would amount in the first instance to. 700/. The Eion. Gentleman then proceeded to read the report of the Provisional Committee, which contained the rules and regulations for the governance of the Society. The report sated that the Association was formed for the protection of the g .neral interests of the trade with the East Indias and Chios— tor collecting and classil)ing information—watching the object and progress of Hills-in Parliament—obtaining the removal of gievanees and injurious imposts, and in ccanmunicating with the public authorities on all subjects affecting the common good. The report referred to other mattes of detail for the management of the Association. Ile conclu , lei by moving that the report be adopted, and that a permanent Committee be chosen by ballot. The report was adopted unanimously, and a ballot was opened for the appointment of a permanent Committee. Mr. Winat.NSoN suggested that an association, having fur its object the general interests of the merchants of the port of London, would be more useful than one exclusively confined to the trade to the East Indies and China. lie was anxious to see a chamber of commerce established for the protection of the general trade of the country. Mr. SMITH concurred in this opinion, believing that thtugh c East India and China Association was founded upon honour able principles, still that a chamber of commerce would be ad vantageous to the great interests of the country. Such an es tablishment.; s he had named would be for the benefit of all in terests and not for the few. o:her associations might spring up which tend to embarrass Government, instead of being of gentral interest to the trade. Funds had aeraed in his hands, amounting to about 3001. towards the establishment of a chamber of commerce, which be would place at the dispwal of such an institution if formed. • , , After come further conversation, in AN• Lleu tne till/ORMAN stated that the meeting was fur the establishment of an ast India and China Asso.eintion, the routine business was disposed of, and the meeting adjourn ----=---. Sir Eardicy Wilmot, Bart. has offered to act as Re rziiin corder of the Boroug h of Warwick gratuitously ; an d t h e Lcarund Baronet's liberal offer has been accepted with th an k s tiolt, to considerl repeal ofa by the , Tortevili n i Cx i n ay Council. l last a meetin g o f t h e 'h am . on N\ bit an ts of Birmingha m was held in the 'Pow 1a the propriety' of petitioning Parliament for own-hall , chairman, and the meeting wasMra.drlirlessiledacible; S a). t, resolutions Sharman, w o I r ? e a ulkner, adopted.iipireesssirds.edEtai_s the Newsprioer stamp duty. , F. Muntz, and others i G. The utmost anxiety and determination to effect a repeal after id which s of the tax was evinced by all present. In the course of the . evening it was announced that Ministers had obtained a maority of 61 on the Corporation Bill, upon which flys , business was suspended for some time by the most enthusiastic cheering. . I