The Sun. — London, England, 1839-06-21 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION. Your back, to put down your foe,"—recollect that be will not quit the armour till he has " the sword of the Lord and of Gic i eonn his hand."(Latighter.) There is another ttiagraph in their petition, which for common decency s hould t " , e be en om i tte d . Th e y p ro test against being compelled t° support sch oo l s in which it is proposed to use versions 'i the S cr i ptures notor i ous l y corru pt and false. They t; ° bad Biblical seholars.—( Laughter.) I'll quote a hi g h o Itliority against them—the authority of a dignitary of the Scoof Which Church—far more opposed to mine than is yo ur ' s, o w,binh, pardon me, I cannot help saying-, " Reformed t he I least because the least reformed."— ( Hear , he ar, and :°ghter. , ) Dr. Chalmers, on the 20th of May , 1830, ' id ' when giving evidence before Parliament, " As to the l ' 4l • a • a them or . fse verston and the Douay, the difference between Is not so great as to make it a thing of practical im tortaee which of them is used."—(Loud cries of “ Hear, Per fumed So here I give you the Methodist declaration, with your eulogiums—( A laugh)—and the ac toiftPlished theologian against it.—(Hear, hear, hear.) 'tbis were the proper place, I could prove to y ou that there arc important errors—admitted errors—and yet rs uncorrected ; in your authorised version. — ( Hear, hear.). Let me state, that the Catholic Bishops have dis ikluted 309,000 copies of the Scriptures in Ireland remember when the cry was " Read the Bible I read ''' °l ' own version I"—(Loud cries of " Hear ' hear.") The catholic Bi s h ops f ee l the time is gone by for denying to o , e e People the right to read the B ble for themselves. I g ive y ou the history of one version. In 1593, by Pope deme nt one was published at Rome , and it was t ranslated v ,„` Rheims—whether 4 s—whether the Douay College had , on the ap naeh of the British army, withdrawn—and the versio n is . caching th e Rh en i s h ; HOW to that version were appended notes , persecution. An edition was published at Liverpool ' l lBos, and I was the first to discover and to denounce these eves;and the evidence of Dr. Doyle is that in all 1 elequent editions the ,notes objected to were expunged. e gare heard the Hon. Member for Kent (Mr. Plurnptre) ; 4 3' that the Scriptures are " solely sufficient, and all.suf tt"ient" Will the Hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Glad ti'ine) admit that ?—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Will he °w no aid from the Church—no authority to tradition? `(Laughter.)_ I wish, Sir, to treat the subject, in this, I ti u st, calm and conciliatory spirit.—( Cheers from the t hen generally.) lam arrived at that period of life t °en the reckoning cannot be far eietant. All that I con tend for is, that you should allow some portion of the Go vernment grant for the education of the C .tholics.—( Hear, bear.) In Liverpool they are 92,380 —they are one-third to the populatioc—the poorest portion.—( Hear.) Are they T he no part of the Parliamentary educational grant? ch emistry miserable Leer they drink is filtered by the Exchequer uemistry into gold—shall nut they share in your bounty ? 7s 000. hear, hear ) In Manchester they amount to sOOO. In Great Britain , they number 1,500,000 . The D issenters annually give 111,000 L to missionary enter r ~, „6 1 es; the Church only 40,0 001 . Sha l l not the Catholics e the Dissenters have their share of education ? Oh, let o " 6 ' quarr e l about something else.—(Cheers.) Let us i g i lit our party battles upon another ground. — (Re newed c heers.) ain't come forward with a side - wind insinuation, that Lord Lansdowne and the other Protestant Privy ' 4 uncillors are not fit to distribute the Parliamentary grant._( Cheers.) Not respons ible, forsooth ! Wh y , .rho so responsible as the Ministry ? (Cheers.) 'Would d .° Clergymen of the Established Church, if they had the Istribution of the fund, allow the Catholics to have any p a rt of it? O'a, no I they disown them ! Oxford shudders ` 1 the m tee( Hear, and laughter.) Even the P us ey ites, °sely as they approach the more ancient Cathol ics, scorn us. M en might disguise their votes. There was no t much aalgaise about the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposit e gene t' He He generally went to the mark straight ; wh y not so on this occasion ? lie had heard his speech with peat regret. He had heard the Noble Lord the Member e el ' Dorchester with great regret; but he would not corn rtt o n his speech, as he was not then in his place. Let 14ge H ouse mar k the difference between them. The Ro n Catholics proposed that all persuasions should be e qually treated by this money, which belonged to all. They ~luire d no p re f e rence —they only demanded equality. — ( Cheers.) They did not require the money belonging to oe inembera of the Establialled Church ; they only said, ;%st take ours. Refuse the vote altogether , and t ha t „rwlld be just ; but if it was to be granted , the y s'Rht not to keep the money all to the rich rid ref use airy of it to the poor. Much had be en said s hout ou r Christianity, and he did not like to hear some i sh ears th a t he had heard upon that, proceeding unbecom :o3' as they did from the Right Hon. Baronet. There ere some points that were important. Faith was impor t ant- e ll ope was cheering—but Charity was above all—it ' . eluded a ll, an d f o rmed a proper basis for all.—(Much c heeri ng ) f Mr. GLADSTONE said it was with deep and un bele le, e forrelhe uct well that he rose to take a part n in this de- a knew the deep and cardial principles 0,:l %Odell it turned, and those principle s in the abstract ere what he believed could not be discusse d in that House with advantage. And to that doctrine they had a a '' l lifl,e assent from the professions of Hon. Members e "PPosite, arid from the Hon. Member for Dublin, who had J u st, and so speedily, vanished from his place, who, in the tPeech he had just 'delivered, had laid down and stated 11 ,!°st clearly Iris views of the introduction of que stions on theol og y into that House, and stated with great power the r easons why those questions ought not to be made the !Ned matter of debate. But how did he apply that doe ,e'ilae? By patine to him ( Mr. G.), personally, questions on re subject of the authority of tradition.—( Hear, hear. ) seemed as if he was an individual who was to be p icked Oat and made liable to an examination of his religious ° l c luions He should have no objection to that in a pro • Per plac e ; but was that to be so in respect to him in that t c : 3ll se, while the moment Han. Gentlemen opposite e ;: ° d:the least allusion made to their religious principles ' e° to rise up and protest against the introduction of li e i r. ,a subject as unfit to be discussed there ?—( Hear , b e ) This was not the first time it h ad ha pp ened that had,)eine been personally appealed to in that House. The an :re Lord opposite himslf tli - Condescended to ad on mo . re occasions than notice eh a book of his, which amidst Dee many avocations of that Noble Lord he was quite sure l v i e s r adTt l i c i l in i er:itT a l: ' l ) p ( r l i l n e c a i r p , le h s eLr i . doTwline in n No t r a e t -ook, and the course to which they were to lead. Let him tell the Noble Lord he did not flinch from any one word he bad ever said or written; and i n hi s turn he had a right to try the principles of the Noble Lord and to ascertain, or to ask, what the conse quences to this country would be of following out the legitimate and immediate principles which he had more than once expressed in reference to the Established Church in, this country, in Scotland, and Ire land„..._( Hear.) And the lion. Member for Liskeard had spoken of him last night as advocating principles which, it consistently followed out, ought to lead to persecution. It was somewhat hard for him to be subjected to those ac : cusations In a place where it was impossible for him, without a deviation from what he considered to be his duty, and without abandoning a proper respect for the subject matter of debate, to defend himself again. (Cheers. ) lie should not be diverted from what he con sidered to be his proper course, but if the Noble Lord thought proper to say of him, that he wished to reduce the right of private judgment to a right of agreeing with the Church of England, it would be just as easy forpim - (Mr. Gladstun) to say that the Noble Lord was trying to reduce the right of private judgment to a right of agreeing with that which they did not believe to he consistent with the truth.—( Hear, hear ) And if the Noble Lord said his principles were to lead to na tional infidelity, it was equally right for him to say that the Noble Lord's were to lead to national infidelity. He Would say, agreeing most cordially in the position, that theological questions ought not, and as he believed need not be introduced into the discussions of that House, they assuredly ought not, when they were introduced for the Purpose of misrepresentation and caricature, or by persons who had not seriously applied their minds to the responsi hility of the subject, but who were prepared to turn the most solemn matters into ridicule. With respect to the lion, and Learned Member for Dublin, he spoke of being fond of statistics, and the use he had made of them re minded him of a saying ascribed to the late Mr. Canning, that he had a great distrust of a fact in debate, but that if there was anything he distrusted more than that, it was a figure.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") What said the Honourable and Learned dember ? Why, that he had discovered that there were 97,000 churches in this country before the Reformation. A statement, de pending upon historical research, which, if it were known to an y one, was not known to any other human being tha n the lion. and Learned Gentleman.—( Hear, hear.) It was not easy to test a statement of that sort, applying to a period so long ago ; but they bad the mains of test ing what he had brought forward of a later date. He bad heard of 9,000,000 of Dissenters. Why, the House would recollect that they were not speaking of Ireland—arid what was the real number of Dissenters in England ? He believed he spoke from very goad authority, when he referred to a letter, published by Mr. Dann, the Secre tary for the British and Foreign Soc'ety School, pub lished in the Morning Chronicle, he believed in the month of October, 1837, in which be made the entire number of Protestant Dissenters in this country—consist ing of a population of about 15 millions, to amount to between 24 millions to three millions of persons. But there was another point which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had travelled into the region of statistics for. lie repeated twice in the face of that House that the Church of England was demanding money for public education while it was already in the possession of money amounting to eight millions a year. Why the Hon. and ' Learned Gentleman had been so much engaged with his statistics, that he had not taken t he p ains to refer to the Papers which had recently been laid before that House.— (Hear, hear.) If he had done so he would have found that it appeared that the whole revenues of the Church of England, so far as they were applicable to its Ministry, • amounted to about three and-a-half millions ; and if they allowed about half a million more to the endowed schools and the Universities it would still appear that the lion. and Learned Gentleman, professing to guide the House to useful knowledge by accurate statistical research, had as sumed to himself the privilege of just doubling what the real amount was.—( Hear hear.) One word more in reply to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on the subject of the Wesleyan Methodists. lie was rather at a loss to divine with what view it was that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had expended so much ingenuity in demonstrating that, as the Wesleyan Methodists were practically not at variance with the docter.nes of the Church of England, they should not remain in a state of separa tion. He (Mr. Gladstone) would be rejoiced that they should return into a union with the Church, fer he had always regarded with pain the secession of that body, and believed all the fault lay much less upon their side than that of the body by whose proceedings they had been cast out. He hoped be should live to see the day when that union would be accomplished, and he was glad to find the Hon. and Learned Member even an uevoluntary ally of that union. He thought it extremely hard however that they should be taunted with being opposed to civil and religious liberty. When he recollected the history of their conduct with regard to the great measure of the abolition of negro slavery— ( Hear, hear)--when he called to mind that none were so unwearied or persevering as they in pressing to its happy issue that question which was of such importance to the interests of humanity, Ile knew not upon what grounds that charge could be brought against them. Ile meant not to I throw imputations on any man, but he must say that he heard with surprise the lion. and Learned Gentleman designate, as opposed to the freedom of their fellew countrymen, a body who had been foremost in the promo tion of that great measure. Now, with respect to the two plans of Government education—they were told that the first plan, embracing normal schools, had been for the present abandoned—not finally abandoned, but merely postponed. Look at the position in which they would be placed if they adopted the present plan of the Government. The present plan was to make the distribution of the money votes for education indiscriminate, or, as it was termed, " impartial." If that plan were acted upon; the money would be ratedly distributed between the different religious bodies in connection with them throughout the country. Many of these bodies were small, and unable to support normal schools ; and what predicament would they be placed in if the plan were adopted? ,Why, they would come forward and say, " You have enabled us to establish schools, but without good masters we can't have good schools, and to make it effective we must have good mas ters." Therefore they would be compelled to introduce the general normal schools, or the grant would be thrown away. So that, insidious as in other respects the new minute was, it was most of all insidious in this—that it was intended to betray these bodies into the dilemma either of adopting the general normal schools, or leaving themselves open to the imputation of having squandered the public money upon bad schools, by opposing the only means of rendering them advantageous. Many of the fallacies and difficulties that beset the question lay in the ambiguity of the term " education." Education sometimes implied technical and civil knowledge, but education had sometimes a much higher meaning. The Hon. Member for Waterford, and it was due to him to state that no man had spoken with more strength and fervour against educa tion, being merely external and technical, had admitted that there must be in connection with it a moral discipline, which would operate upon the habits and dispositions of the people, distinct from what was merely useful. That education then was not to be n.eeely technical—it was to be an education in the emphatic language of the:Noble Lord, in the first minute " in which religion was to be combined with the whole matter of instruction, and regulate the entire system of discipline." It was impossible to conceive words more satisfactory than these—it comprised, not a merely secular education, but also a great moral system of in struction. intended to reform their natures, and instil those principles which would render them competent to the discharge of all the duties of life. He ( Mr. Gladstone) was not prepared to admit any other principle, except after full and fair discussion, and after the Government fur once ventured to avow what they intended—( Cheers) when they should have an opportunity of joining issue with something they could grasp instead of phantoms and shadows.—( Loud cheering.) He concluded that the pre sent system was contrary to the constitution of the country. He need not refer to ancient history in support of that proposition, and there was no modern instance against him, except the case of the Prisons Bill, which could scarce be referred to, because it ha not yet become law, and which was not quite applicable, d because it was put upon the express basis that, when a man was in cus tody, he was prevented supplying himself, and the State was bound to supply him with the religious instruction he required. The Hen. and Learned Member for Dublin had stated that all these Secieties had already recognised all the forms of Protestant dissent, and that it was in vain to deny the last portion of the boon to the Roman Catholics. The Hon. and Learned Member had greatly misrepre sented the British and Foreign Society, if he supposed that it taught all the peculiarities of the Dissenters—the whole principle and nature of the British arid Foreign Society was based upon the principle that they could ex tract from the Bible certain general doctrines—( Ministe rial cheers)—on which the great bulk of Christians could agree. It was' hardly necessary to refer in support of that to the list of persons who supported that Society. The Noble Lord (John Russell) might not think it any establishment of the proposition to quote his name, but he found among them the names of many persons sincerely attached to the Church, namely, the late Lord Carring ton, Earl Roslyn, the Earl of Chichester, Lord Bexley, and the present Hon. Member for Bandon ; and among' the subscribers to the Society were George the Third, George the Fourth, William the Fourth, and her present Most Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria. It was well known that the children of the Church wer I frequently educated in these schools.—( Hear, hear. ) t would not be contended that the state of that country had yet recog nised the principle of teaching the people of Eng land all forms of religion, and thereby placing truth and error and falsehood in juxta-position. Let the matter be well considered, and when they were called upon to take a step which would advance them in a manner contrary to all former policy, let them be told what were the expected results—let them not be asked to em bark upon the ocean of political change without knowing the haven to which they were bound.—( Cheers. ) It was enough for him that the law was the support of the one faith and the Church—that was the Church of the coun try. He would call their attention for a moment to what had fallen from the Noble Lord the Member for the West Riding—every thing which fell from the Noble Lord was entitled to much respect both from the position and the well-known honesty of character of the Noble Lord—from his character and abilities. That Noble Lord said, " While the State condescends to employ Roman Catholic sinews, and to finger Unitarian gold, it is bound to see that they enjoy the blessings of education."—(Cheers.) Such was the principle laid down by the Noble Lord, and he wished to treat it with all respect. He was perfectly aware that the question was surrounded with difficulties—(Hear, hear, hear)—but if the State had no other functions than that of representing all sects of the people then he assented to the principle, but the state had a conscience.—(Laughter and cheers.) Would the Hon. Member for Kendal, who had been so success ful in advancing those questions be had taken in hand during the present session—(Loud cheers)—would he, or would any Hon. Member tell him, how the duty could be applicable if the conscience were not.—( Cheers.) It was constantly urged that it was the duty of the State to give the people education—was not the argument equally good, that the State were obliged to give the people religion—(Cheers)—if the State must endow schcols, was not the argument equally good that they must endow chapels—where was the difference in the principle—where the difference between the two endow ments? If the State must endow a school for all sects of religion, why should it not endow a chapel or a sy nagogue—a meeting or a mosque. The Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin said there were many thou sands of Catholics in want of education, and schools ought to be endowed for them. Chapels were more expensive than schools—if they could not build schools they could not build chapels. Show him then the reason, according to the argument of his Noble Friend, that they should not be obliged to provide places of worship for all sects. Let them look at the extent to which the argument went ; was it to be limited to Christians, or to Christianity of any form ? The petition of the three denominations of Dissenters, presented a few nights ago, was variously worded ; they prayed that the youth, Jewish and Christian, of the country should be taught with a due regard to the Holy Scriptures. How were the Jewish people to be taught with a due regard to the Holy Scriptures, when they believed that the New Testament was altogether a forgery ?—( Cheers.) Were they to force them to read the New Testament? That was contrary to the principles laid down by the minute of the Board. But he, and those who thought with him, protested against the State providing for the propagation of that which the law of the land said was erroneous. In India they had millions of poor subjects professing Hindooism. From no part of our dominions did we derive more money, in fact, all our relations with that country were money re lations. Had those millions a right to ask us fora grant to propagate their religious idolatry ? The Right Hon. and Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets, than whom there was riot a more honest man in the House, had settled the question for them in a manner honourable to him for his candour; he had been most studious to cut himself off from all retreat ; he had spoken out honestly. If the principle laid down by that Hon. and Learned Member were good for one case, it must be pod for all—there could be n 9 exception. Was the House prepared to adopt the principle ? Was it prepared to say that the State and constitution of this country did not recognise any difference between that religion which God has revealed, and that which he has not.—( Hear, hear.) Are they to be held as equally efficacious moral instruments in the improvement of human character.—( Cheers.) The Dis senters in this country, it was true, did not demand endow ments, because here they were difficult to be get, but in the Colonies, where they were easier attainable, they were not denied. He believed the Dissenters here were sin cere—they demanded the endowment of schools only. What the Members of that House were bound to look at was, not the will of the moment—not the demand now urged,—(Cheers from Lord John Russell)—but what was the legitimate scope of the arguments.—(Hear, hear.) (Lord John 'Russell made a remark across the table, but in so low a tone as not to reach the gallery.) What was the state of the Goverment —they were living from d 4 to day by shifts and expedients,—( Loud cheer ing)—and using arguments, the results of which they were not aware. While he looked back at the brilliant though short administration of his Right Hon. Friend —( Loud cheers and laughter)—where was the man who would deny the epithets lie had used, who would dare deny their truth as applied to the conduct of the Right lion. Baronet ?—( Cheers.) When he was taunted with being behind the spirit of the age, he returned the taunt by telling his opponents that they were behind the spirit of their own arguments.—( Cheers ) The effect of those arguments would be to destroy the principles of religion in the State, and the national character, which was our boast.--( Cheers.) Let the Government propose that which they had to propose in a distinct form, and let them show that when they would call upon the House to give religious instruction to all religious sects in the schools of the country they were advancing something different in principle from endowing all faiths, all religions, and all cha pels. Let them do that, and the House would know for what they were contending . . But no, they would not do that, because they dared not.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord had refused to hear anything, by his attacks on the Church and the religion of the country. He should have thought the Noble Lord would have recollected the enormous political advantages lie had given to his opponents by creating in the minds of the people at large the belief that his plans, if not his intentions, were hostile to the religion of the country. —( Hear, hear, hear.) But no; year after year, defeated on one plan, he brought forward another, and every time he was obliged to recoil from the assault, healed, defeated, and disgraced.—( Loud cheers.) He had been most unwilling to mix in this debate, and he agr w eed with the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, ho said, " Let U 3 quarrel on something else." Most pain ful was it to him to make religion the subject of hostile discussion ; but the Governrnent, not satisfied with being defeated on the Appropriation Clause—( 10er, hear) — not satisfied with being beat upon the Church-rates — (Hear, hear) —they tried another point of attack, and by an attempt ebually insidious, they endeavoured to under mine that fortress which they could not storm.— ( Loud cheers.) A plan to be worthy the assent of Parliament ought to be good in itself, and accept able to the people ; but he contended it was bad n principle, and that it reversed the ancient policy of this THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, JUNE 21, 1839. country on matters the most fundamental and essential— ( Hear.) Let them consider this, how far the plan, being such as it was in principle, possessed even the temporary and partial recommendation of popularity.—( Hear.) He would not repeat what had been stated with more force by , others respecting the Church and the Wesleyan Metho dists, but he would allude to the case of the Protestant Dissenters, the chief section that remained. Wnere were they on this occasion ?—( Cheers.) Did the House not recollect the activity they had displayed in petitioning on former occasions —did they not recollect the peti tions with reference to the abolition of slavery and the abolition of Church-rites—that there was not a Dissenting pulpit throughout the country from which the Minister did not tell the congregation that petitions for such and such objects lay in the vestry for signature? Where were those petitions now ? There had been here and there some feeble and partial demonstrations, but they bad not dared to test the body, even of the Dissenting population, because it was known that the good sense, the right feeling, and the religious principles of the people were opposed to it. —(Hear, hear.) He could not help alluding to one very short passage which had already been s:ated in the debate, from a resolution agreed to at a meeting of the Protestant Society held on the 13:1) of June. They said much for the Government, and in the third resolution they stated, that .‘ while to that Go vernment the Committee offered their thanks, they ap proved of the discretion that induced them not to urge forward recently a plan which multitudes of pious men, under much obvious misapprehen sion, had opposed, and would now ads ise them as a general rule to apply any further Parliamentary rant in the same manner es those which were in former sessions supplied, only conferring assistance on poor and pojaulous districts, where local contributions cannot be obtained, under the inspection and guidance either of the National School Society or the British and Foreign School Seciety, as circumstances, in the judgment cf the Committee of Privy Council, in either case might direct."—( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) What was the meaning of that proposition ? It was a good index of the sentiments of the party they represented. The opinion of those individuals was, that under all the circumstances of the case, regard being had to the opinion of the country, that the Government ought at once, and frankly, to revert to the system of the foregoing year, with the single excepiion of a difference which was technical in its nature. The diffe rence they recommended was not to depart Trom the guid ance of the two societies, but merely to modify the rule. As regarded the religious plan, therefore, the Govern ment's own friends had advised them to do that which was recommended by their opponents, to revert to the plan which had been pursued with general satisfaction. Would to God they had listened to the advice their friends had given them.—( Cheers.) That body to which they looked for sup port having declared their opinion, surely it wqs not p )ssible they could hope to carry into effect, a plan which was revolting to the general sense of the country, and which placed in the ranks of their opponents the Wesleyan Methodists.—( Hear, hear.) They talked of peace and union, but what peace and union, did they expect from forcing forward a plan, disowned by the Church, discountenanced by the Wesleyans, and which the representatives of the Dissenters were unwilling or afraid to countenance. On both these grounds be did trust the House would accede to the motion of his Noble Friend, confident as he was that, wheth_r or not the Go ernruent might by some unexpected piece of good luck succeed that night in obtaining a decision in their favour by one of those glorious m ijorities which had lately distin guished their career.—( Loud cheering and laughter.) That they would not be able to carry their vote through Parliament, and that even if they did, it would exercise a greater amount of indignation in the minds of the people than for many years the history of this country had wit nessed.—( Great cheering ) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and Mr. Shiel rose together. and notwithstanding there were several calls for the latter Gentleman, the former persisted in addressing the House—The principles that had been avowed by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite we r e inconsistent with all notions of civil and religious freedom. —( Ironical cheering.) He hoped Hon. Gentlemen would have the goodness to follow him while he endeavoured to pursue the arguments of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down.—( Similar cheering.) The Hon. Gentle man had assumed that in this matter, the State had a con science, and that conscience ought to be directed and ap plied to this particular purpose. He said the State was bound to promulgate religion, but that it was not justified more than any individual in propagating error.—( Hear.) No individual could agree more than he did to the necessity of connecting secular education with education in religion. He believed a merely secular education would be inopera tive for any good purpose—they must make schools of edu cation schools of religion, and that must be the true roll gion.—( Hear, hear.) Then, what sees the conclusion they were to draw? If they proposed to connect with education those parts of a religion which was common to all Christians (which, on the other side, would altogether un dervalue it) it would be said they were generalising reli gion, and there doctrines led to infidelity or atheism ; therefore, as to that general instruction the Hon. Gen tleman and his friends entertained his entire objection. But would they allow in one common school instructions in the faith of the Church of England and in any other faith? No. Would they allow the introduction of schools for separate religions? Would they allow a a Catholic School by the side of a Protestant School? No, they would not admit of that. If they excluded sepa rate instruction—if they reserved themselves solely for the educating of the children of the Established Church, and the principles of the Established Church, the principle laid down by the Hon. Gentleman amounted to this, that they were to educate the children of the Established Church, but that no other children belonging to any other denomi nation should be educated.—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) That was the logical conclusion. The Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, and the Ho nourable Member who bad last spoken, said they would admit the British and Foreign School, be cause it was formed upon a basis ccmmon to the Church, but would they admit of a school for Dissenters in England? No:—(Cheers,) The argument used by the Hon. Member for the Universit y of ford was this— The State is only justified in teaching the truth—the truth is to be found in the Church of England.—(Cheers.) The principles avowed by the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire, if they led to anything, would lead to the vote against the grant to Maynooth.—(Tory chem.) The Hon:Member for the University of Cambridge, who for so many years proposed that vote, and the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, who so often defended that vote, and the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke, who approved of the principles of it—they were now surrounded by a set of cheerers when they advocated the opposite prin ciple.—(Loud cheers.) The principles which he was now contending for, if they were right, were not limited to the island in which we lived—they were universal. The Hon. Gentleman who had been the Colonial Secretary must admit this was equally good with respect to the colonies.— ( Cheers.) This country was bound simply to teach the oath, and according to the arguments of Hon. Gentlemen opposite, if they believed that Church to be the truth, they were not to instruct in the doctrines of another Church. He held a paper in his hand, showing an account of the Church Establishment in the colonies ; from which it appeared that this country supported most largely the Church of England—largely the Church of Scotland ; in four colonies the Dutch Church, and in many of the colo nies, to the horror of the State conscience, the Church of Rome—(Cheers and laughter)—nay, further, there was provision made for the Jews in Jamaica. What then be same of the State conscience? He would appeal to the conscience and heart of the lion. Gentleman, and ask if he would be justified in leaving the Queen's subjects in distant lands, unassisted by religious instruction, and say his feeling was with them that the conscience of the State forbad him to assist them.—( Cheers.) He had another high authority to refer to. He had the honour to be Secretary of State for the Colonies for a short time. His Noble Friend opposite preceded him, and he ( Mr. R. ) was succeeded by a very distinguished statesman. One of the first matters - brought under the consideration of that Goverment, of which his successor was - a prominent member and an ornament, was a plan for the endowment of Roman Catholic Chaplains and Chapels in New South Wales.—( Hear, hear.) He could refer to the despatch on this subject, which was dated February 20, 1835. It referred to another despatch of the 22d De. comber, 1834, for the appointment of four additional chap lains to the Clergy of New South Wales—that 150/. should be appropriated towards their outfit, and that they should have a salary of 1201. each after their arrival. Dr. Folding went out as Bishop, and with him he took out the Rev. Messieurs. Gregory, Keusell, and Kenny. The de spatch concluded by recommending the propriety of the Ro man Catholic Bishop havinc , an influence over the Catholic population. The dispatch' was signed Aberdeen. This arrangement, though some time in contemplation, was not completed until it bad been approved of by Lord Aber deen, and that Noble Lord gave it his entire approbation. Now, according to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that conduct was a violation of the conscience of the State—a propagation of error—a promulgation of the pes tilence of Popery.—(Cheers.) Surely the Hon. Gentle man would not limit by degrees of latitude and longitude the extent of moral and religious truth and education. He would no doubt advocate the same religious principles here that he would in the Colonies. The lion. Gentle man opposite was Under Secretary of State for the Colo nics at the same time. What became, therefore, of the principles of their State conscience? If they would adopt I his principles they must retrace their steps—they must repeal the East India Charter Act, they must alter the whole of the Colonial Ettablishment, and declare that all that they had done of a liberal and compre hensive nature had been done in error, and must therefore he now rescinded, for it hurt their consciences. —( Cries of " Hear," and cheers.) He (Mr. Rice) objected not to those principles alone. He also objected to the principle raised on the other side, that the educa tion of the people belonged to the clergy of the Established Church exclusively.—( Cheers.) He must refer to the Petitions on this subject. He found that there had been presented 242 petitions, with 26,603 signatures against any system of education not based upon the principles of the Established Church. So far those petitions were consistent with the Right Hon. Member, the Member for Oxford. However, he would remind the House, there had been most extraordinary delusions used to get up those signatures, and he . ( r.IR ) would charge, as far as parliamentary cour tesy would allow, the outcry which had been made use of for that purpose with falsehood. The Hon. Gentlemen opposite were assuming one question and avoiding the real one, for in the House, and out of the House, it was well known that the real question was, did truth and religion command that education should be in the principles of the Established Church, and ought therefore the education of the youth of this country be exclusively entrusted to the clergy of the Established Church ?—( Hear, hear.) He would en tirely contravene that principle. But if that were not the principle the Hon. Gentleman opposite acted upon, what did the Noble Lord opposite mean by referring to the Norman-French law of Henry the Four:h and the Chief Justice Holt, to show that the schoolmaster should be subject to the clergy. He ( Mr. R.) did not intend to interfere with the proper jurisdiction of the clergy— he wished to preserve unimpaired the superiority of their control, and the use of their spiritual functions, and the full extent of their proper rights—protection, and encourage. ment on the part of the State ; but he did not wish to see the clergy taking a step of an aggressive character, and claiming functions which did not belong to them. No doubt it would be a most salutary thing for the Clergy to supervise the schools, and visit them, and guard them against error, but they must not take the schools under their exclusive centroul and guidance. He remembered that when the first Report of the Educational Commis sioners for Ireland was presented to Parliament, it con tained a suggestion to the effect that the Clergy of the Established Church were bound to visit the schools, and that one of the Rev. Gentlemen most effectually replied by stating that such visitations would be incompatible with the due discharge of their spiritual duties.—( Cheers. ) He must now refer to the facts. He was sure many of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite were entirely igno-ant of the base delusive circumstances under which many of the petitions against the system had been got up. He would undertake to show that cards and statements emblazoned with the words " Popery, Infidelity, Latitudinarianism." and God knows what, had been circulated to excite the people to oppose the plan. How could they reconcile this with the violation of the State conscience ? ( Cheers.) If they would go to the mass of the people of England and tell them the truth, by stating that they wished to have the education of the whole of the people confined to the Clergy. of the Established Church, then let them get up petitions if they could. He could assure the House that many petitions presented, especially those upon reli eious subjects, would not stand the test of inquiry. One of these petitions had been presented from Oxford, he knew not whether from the University, at all events it was from the Divines of that University, and if ever there were a petition in which they could expect to find the truth correctly stated, it would be in a petition of that kind. there were many others of a similar nature, and he found that a high authority on that subject had stated that the Right R.verend Prelate who presided over the See of Exeter could command as many petitions as he lik,el from the Clergy of his diocese.—( Loud cheering from the Ministerial benches, mingled with cries of " No, no," from the Opposition.) On the subject of these petitions, the high authority, which he would hereafter name, had de clared that if the petitioners who had affixed their names to these petitions, were not better informed than their brethren of Oxford on the subject of the petitions, their authority was entitled to but little weight; and he concluded with the following, which he would use in reference to petitions which had been presented on this subject, without mean ing the slightest disrespect to the petitioners. The peti tions were full of ms statements. He admitted that those statements had been made Without any disposition to de ceive. He gave them credit for being actuated by a de sire to support the Established Church ; but the House should be on its guard horr+t-iv:ss-teikto grant" the prayer of petitions which betrayed the greatest ignorance on the subject. Those petitions had been presented from the Clergy of Oxford against the Church Dsicipline B. 11; and the high authority who had thus designated them was the Archbishop of Centel bury.—( Loud cheers.) This was the character that had been given .to petitions got up in consequence of a religious cry among the clergy themselves.—(Loud and long continued cheerieg.) He would now apply himself shortly to the four principal objections which had been taken' by his Noble Friend to the proposed plan, and he thought he should be able to answer each of them satisfactorily. Ile had first objected to their mode of proceeding; he had said, and it had been again reputed in the course of the debate, that be objected to this plan being sanctioned by that House alone, and being brought into operation by a vote of only one branch of the Legislature. On this point he would merely quote the authority of his Noble Friend. What course had he pursued in bringing forward his system of Education for Ireland? Why he had proposed it by a vote of the House of Commons—he had carried it by a vote of the House of Commons:—(Cheer;.) Therefore he had, by his own act, superseded the deliberations of the other branch of the Legislature—( Loud cheers) —and yet he now came down and raised an outcry—( Continued cheering)—against the Government, on this absurd ground. —( Long continued cheering, which drowned the remainder of the sentence.) They had merely pursued the same course that he himself had done.—( Loud cheers. ) He now came to the second ground of objection, that the supeeintendence of the plan was confided to an irrespon sible tribunal. If ever there was responsibility on earth, it would be found here. The Board was composed of gentlemen whose names were communicated to the House, who all held offices under time Crown, from which they might be removed by an address from this House. What greater responsibility could they have ?—(Cheers.) But that was not all; his Noble Friend might have raised this argument if he had asked to have this made a cherge, on the Consolidated Fund—that would have given the un controllable power over the grant, Such an attempt could hardly have escaped the vigilance of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.—( Hear, hear, from Mr. Hume.) So that they bad not only the responsibility of the Members of the Privy Council, but they had the responsibility to the House of Commons necessarily attendant 'upon the fact of this being an annual gr. nt. So that they had two responsibilities, and his Noble Friend knowing that two negatives make an affirmative, argued by analogy that two responsibilities con stituted irresponsibility. But, said his Noble Friend, book at the insidious nature of this Whig Government—see what a scheme lurks behind this minute. . He would not go into the circumstances of " wherever" being, by a misprint, substituted for " whenever." They could hardly imagine that their normal schools were intended to he locomotive ; but there was, it seemed something insidious in the last clause of the minute, giving them the power of altering or amending anything in the plan. This concealed some in sidious intention of bringing fcirward something- that should make the stones of the Churches start from their places with horror. The Noble Lord had intro duced many Bills into that House, and had he not observed that in everyone of them the last °lame permitted any alteration or emendation that might be deemed ne cessary ; and, could anything ho more absurd or pre sumptuous than for thrm to imagine that their plan would' stai,d in no need of amendment ? But it was, perha,s, thought that advantage might be taken of the recess to 'do that behind their backs which they would not dare to do while Pialiament was sitting.—( Loud opposition cheers. ) If they could be so knavish—( Loud cheering - from the Opposition, responded to by cheering from the Ministerial Benches)—it they were so suspicious he would beg to remind them that those who were most ready to suspect others, were, in general, the most open to suspicion them selves.—(Loud cheering from the Ministerial side of the House.) But, if they were so knavish, how were they to carry the schemes into effect by issuing another minute which would be surely called for, laid on the table of that House, and it would require no litttle lack of prudence to attempt an act of treachery which would have been so sure to be discovered, and if they mistrusted their motives, they might, at all events, trust their discretion. He hail but a few words more to say relative to the expo sition of the principle which had been avowed by sonic and inferred by others. The principle contended for was that education belonged exclusively to the Church, and that the pastors of the Church could not resign it into other hands without disobeying the commands of the Divine Founder of the Church. Those were the words of Dr. M'Halc, under whose banner they were now fight ing. The authority of the Weslcyart Methodists had been referred to for the purpose of showing that the Minutes of Council were objectionable. He believed that there were some gentlemen opposite that were present du ring place years back upen educa tion, said that it was delightful to a when d i s e u N s i s r i n Wilberforce w ic h t e see men join together for the purpose of endeavouring to educate the people ; in discussing such a subject, he felt that he had risen into a purer air, and was dissolved from all feelings, except that or love, before which all other subjects bowed. Mr. Wilberforce did not doubt that he was accompliching the work of love, when lie was ex. tending education, but in doing so he did not confine his views solely to the Church.—(Hear.) Inwas said that there was danger in the power that was to be given to change the distribution of the money. Who was it that first adopted that course—who was it that first departed from the Treasury minute in that respect? Why the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. He departed from the principle with respect to a school which had been recommended to him by the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool. lion. Members opposite, therefore, were now d T e u p e r r e e c i wa r s i g, there c o u f o r r s e e , nu h r i e e 'lteividiad iityintliteriesuelb objections tions adopted. t had been raised, but there was a power given by upon there whichwas no there kind was o subject no t it of exciting a Church cry in the country. He disposition to raise a Church cry. Take, for instance, the Prison Bill.—(Opposition cheers.) Why, the great sup wouldintroduced into that potter of the clause to which he referred in that Bill was arf y lou th s a c t , the Noble Lord opposite. Now, let Hon. Members cheer that.—(l - fear, bear.) Let them legislate upon the present sulject before the cry raised throughout the country would incapacitate them from bestowing upon it the calm and temperate deliberation it required. He felt satisfied that, under existing circumstances, if the State did not ap• preach the performance of its duty in educating the people, legislation. They could not touch the Factory ithout alluding to the quest i on o f the danger to the State w ould be infinite and inealculaele. Hon. Members opposite knew it themselv es , and felt it, schools —they co uld not refer to the admini stration of the Poor-laws with out raisin g the .q uestion of schools—thee ue s s y ti s o te n n questions °ri all could not allude to the criminal laws of the country without being shocked at the deplorable ignorance of the people.—( Hear and cheers.) Religious instruction could not be dispensed without first sending before them the pioneers of education ; and yet, by the course taken in the presen t question—by the gall, and b:tterness, and mis. representation, andhice h xa i g ta g d er b at e l o o n n of . p a ns, y politics and party excitementw an end to all mtxed up with it, they had gone far to put legislation on the sub'ect. He trus.ed the , House would, by its vote that night, j recog nise;le of a general system of the principle education to the people ; but in one thing it was certain lion. Members op posite had suc ceeded, they had retarded t he real cause o f education in the country.—( Loud cheers,) Sir JAMES GRAHAM said the present question was so important that he conld not give a silent vote upon it. had Tneybeen challenged on his ride of the House to state their opinion.; frankly, and, not presuming to speak for any other individual than himself, he would state the erounds which induced him to support the proposition of his Hon. Friend. As the debate had proceeded, its importance had become ma gnified in his eyes, and he was disposed to consider it one of the most impotent subjects that had come before them, since he had had the honour of a seat in the House. Is e had been much struck with the able .t ie frank and manly speeches of the on. and explicit, o edthe Member for Lambeth, en Learned Gentleman the Ju Ige o f the Admiralty Court. The former H o n. Mem ber had alluded to the speech of his Noble Friend in 1834, on the question o f the admission of Dissenters to the Uni versities, and had endeavoured to fasten upon him some charge of inconsis tenc y , and a slippin g away from his He might perhaps have principles. some partiality for his Noble Friend , but it appeared to him that he on all occas i ons stated his opinions with boldness—with a singleness of pu rpose, an honesty of conviction, and a talent which few could compete with. Ile thought, there fore, if there was any charge to which his Noble Friend might plead not guilty, it was that of slipping away from his principles.--(Hear and a laugh.) When the heat of the present moment was passed away, his Noble Friend would be done justice to, and it would be admitted that power, and place, and ambition he had broken as riven bands when he found himself about to be fettered with declara tions on matters of principle connected with religion, which his heart and conscience disapproved.—( Hear.) In 1834 his Noble Friend bad said that he would give the Dissenters the benefit of instruction, but he would not allow them any there in the management of the Univer sities; and he bad stated that the tone which had been adopted in the Legislature by the Representatives of the Dissenters, and the avowal of their ultimate intentions, had since been such as not only to excuse, but to command the attention of the Church, and would justify his looking with jealousy on any measure brought in to forward the views of the Dissenters. What must his Noble Friend's idea be naturally of the present proposition of the Government favouring, as it so did, the Dissenters? Since 1834 the Dissenters had made three separate attacks upon the Established Church—the first was on the Univer sities, the next upon the Church-rate, and now there was this education plan. Their object had, for sometime, been to reduce the Church to the level of Dissent. Now they had changed their course, and were apparently desirous to elevate Dissent to the level of the Church. The lion. Member for Lambeth ( Mr. Hawes) had asserted that it was the object of a really national education to instruct every sect in its particular creed. Mr. HAWES explained. What he had said was that the State was bound to provide general education for the people; leaving them to find instruction in their separate religious creeds, from their own teachers. Sir J. GRA HAM said that was not the view then of her Majesty's Government.—(Cheers.) The Govern ment plan w is, at least in their normal school system, that religious and general education should be combined.— ( Hear, bear.) As to the Hon. and Learned Judge of the Admiralty C. (Sir S. Lushington) there could be no mistake, hoWever ; for he had stated that all sects should be instructed in their particular creeds at the public charge.—(" No, no," from Sir S. Lushington.) Car tainCy the Hon. and Learned Member had said that reli gious and general instruction ought to be combined— ( Hear, hear, from Sir S. Lushington) —that all should be instructed in the creed they process—(Hear, hear) at the public cost—(" No, no," from Sir S. Lush ingtcn)—not exclusively at the public cost, but with the public assistance.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if this view were adopted by the Government, the conclusion which he (Sir J. Graham) must draw was that there ceased to be a creed favoured by the State as the national reli gion ) The consequence was irresistible.— ( Cheers.) His Hon. Friend the Member for Newark ( Mr. Gladstone) had pressed a question which the Chan cellos of the Exchequer had contrived to evade. "If you apply the aid of the public funds to the instruction of ) outh, how can you refuse it to the teaching of adulis ? ( Hear.) If you endow a Saeinian school, why not a So cinian ?—( Hear.) 13 a large parish with a large population, at a distance from a parish church, much stronger argument might be urged in favour of a grant to a Dissenting chapel. 'But what would be the immediate eff et of this? The moment they admitted their premises, they must be prepared to admit that, as to the State, all religion stood upon a footing of perfect equality._ (Cries of " Hear, hear.") If they admitted that conclusion upon -these premises, every thing which they nad been accustomed most to value would be upset and over thrown. The exclusive right of the Spiritual Nara to it in the House of Lords could on that principle be no longer defended. The exclusive right of endowments to Protestant churches—the coronation oath—the endow ments to the Universities—the exclusion of Roman Catho li Ai from holding the Great Saals, could no longer be de fended ; and, •as he con , ended, the fate of this island • would cease to be Protestant, and for ought he knew the 'legislation of this country would cease to be so also (11eaa, hear, and cheers.) But he could not find any prepo4rion in her Majesty's Government, he could not find there was any limitation to these grants in favour of Christianity. On the contrary, the positive as sertion indeed of the Hon. and Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets would confirm the supposition that they even intended to enable the Jesse to teach Judaism.— ( Hear, hear.) They might go to the teaching of Mahomedanism, or indeed any other creed without exception, however wide and extended.—( Cheers.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that they were late in their opposi tion, and he asked, if they were to oppose this measure how could they justify their vote in favour of Maynooth? He would do so on the repeated statement of the Right Honourable Gentleman himself: it was part of a special contract, resting on special cir cumstances beFore the Union; the Right lion. Gentleman then went to the Colonies, and particularly to grants for Chaplains in New South Wales. In answer to that he would say, that the larger portion of those grants wore defrayed by Coloni it funds. At the same time he would frankly admit that those grants did trench upon the princi ple.—( Hear, hear.) As to the grant to Maynooth for a mixed scheme of education in Irelatu', he thought that had had signally failed. But Hen. Gentlemen on the other side of the House took advantage of what .had been dime, in that respect, under special circumstances, for Ireland, and then argued the same thing to be doue again upon analogous questions with respect to England. In that argament they ,sunk the specialty of the circumstances, both as regarded Ireland and the Colonies ; and the Chancellor of the Exchequer called upon them, if they did not agree with the measures, to re trace - their steps. Now he knew it was ern. possible for them to retrace their steps ; but if they could not do that, there was one thing which they could d), and which lie called upon the House to do, which was to be cautious how they advanced one single step further. The Right Hie. Gentleman called upon them to tell the truth, and to acknowledge that they wished the whole of the instruction of the Youth to be left to the Clergy of the Established Church. They never bad wished for any such thing. lie admitted that the British and FOreign School Society was certainly inconhstent With that principle, hie he, was prepared to co one that vote with rigid observance to the principles on which it was first made.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was not a vote strictly for the purpose ,tf education—it wa; only for the building of schools. and the inspection of the schools, which outlay was to'he limited according to the expense.s, and there was no in terference in that respect on the part of the State, with the scheme .uf education. In reference, therefore, to that lie had mulling further to say, than that to advance one step further in the present state of the controvesy he was not prepared. Hon. and Learned Memb r for Dublin had attempted to depreciate the state of public feeling with respect to the Government plan, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that, the petitions had been obtained by the most gross delusion, and that the signatures were not numerous. Had the Ministers felt it to be so ? What was the mean ing of their withdrawing the first scheme ? Was it volun tary, or was it by compulsion ? Ilowever, that plan was only withdrawn—the moment the Ministers thought that the pressure had subsided there was nothing to prevent them. from carrying the plan into execution within three months. The Board was an irresponsible tribunal, for they were to be armed with despotic and arbitrary powers. Su far from tying down the Crown to particular Societies, there was a power expressly reserved to the Board to make advances to any amouct and to any school.--( Question.) At an earlier part of the evening lie would have trespassed at greater length than he would now do. But there were one or two points which bad been raised in the debate to which be wished to refer. lie was one who did not like to discuss theological sabjects in that House.—(Divide, divide.) lie knew there was a great division of opinion on that subject in that House, and he would be sorry to give any one pain. It had been said it was the duty of the State to support and uphold the true religion, and on that it had been asked " What is truth ?"- -(Cries of " Divide, divide.) If it was the pleasure of the House not to•hear him he would sit down, but if he did not exceed the limits he had laid down for himself, it was not unreasonable that he should call for their atten tion for a few moments. A man was not responsible to his fellow man for his religious creed—that was a matter be tween him and his Maker. He gloried in the name cf Protestant, and he thought it was the grand prerogative of one to insist upon the right of private judgment and the right of private investigation of religious truth. A man was not answerable to man, and it was presumptuous for one to call the creed of another false.—( Hear, hear.) But fig the purpose of the argument, the Government were bound to maintain the established religion—the moment that principle was admitted, the public magistrate was bound to apply the public money to the maintenance of that religion, and not to be expended in the propagation of a doctrine, but for a great national object, which Par liament had laid down for the peace, happiness, and wel fare of the people. That principle was not at all inconsistent with complete toleration, which was satisfied when each individual, whether Dissenter or Churchman, was admitted to all the privileges and capacities of a citizen, without re ference to his religious creed. The moment they assisted a Dissenter from the public funds, it' became inconsistent with an Establishment. They had already given complete toleration, even beyond the limit that was due to an Esta blishment ; receding from that was impossible ; but it would be most imprudent to go further, especially after the views which Hon. Gentlemen opposite had avowed, which were not denied by the Government, and were supported by a large body of persons in this country. There were many who were of opinion that they could accommodate a middle course by taking from one place, and leaving out other parts of the Scriptures. There were those who thought -they could make- a sort of arbitrament between God and man, but nothing of that kind could ever succeed. The great evil of the present day was a thirst for change—a hankering after innovation —which marked the present superficial generation.— ( Divide, divide.) They ought to proceed with peculiar caution. Government generally was a matter of compro mise, but to compromise religion -was totally impossible. Ile was for encouraging by private means, to the very ut most, a system of education, but be feared it would be found Very difficult to adopt any system of education upon a combined plan. It was admitted, that joint education in Prussia had failed—it was abandoned abroad because it was irnp - acticable, and they were about to adopt it here because it was irreligious.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Divide, divide.") His conscientious judgment was, that this scheme, if adopted, would lead to that conclusion. The religion of the State was the pillar of the Govern ment ; if that pillar was shaken, the form of Government under which we lived would be destroyed.—(" Hear, hear," and " Divide, divide.") He had a mast earnest desire that this proposal, which lie considered dangerous should now and at once be intercepted by a vote of that House —(Cheers and cries of " Oh," in the midst of which an lion. Member called out " Brotberton.") He was satisfied that the proposition of the Government would had to results which were inconsistent beth with the temporal and the spiritual interests of the British public.—( Hear, hear, and Divide, divide. ) Lord John Russell and Mr. Shea rose together. There were numerous cries of " Shell, Shell," but the Sneaker called on— Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who addresed the House as follows : —Sir, in the course of this debate I have several tirnss thought it would be my duty to endeavour to vindi cate the plan of the Government from the various—the %rosy num loos misrepresentations and misconstructions which it has been subjected to in the course of th's debate ..but their very variety and very numb( r deter s ee from that task.—( Hear, bear.) I feel that at this late period of the debate (twelve o'clock) RVENING EDITION. it will be trespassing sufficiently, if not too much, on the attention of the House, if I call their attention rather to some of the leading principles which have—been in ques.. tion between one side of the House and the other; and if I endeavour to show how far those principles are contained, or are not contained, in the plan now before the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has, I think, very incompletely and imperfectly answered the arguments of my Right lien. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. ( Hear,. hear.) He has not fully, although I think he has by implication ' answered the question, whether it is now to be assorted that the principle to be hereafter declared by him, and by those who agree with him on the other side of the House is, that no education is to be supported and encouraged by the State, but that which is under the entire and exclu sive control of the Church.—( Hear, hear. ) The Right lion. Gentleman has very nearly come to that conclusion— ( Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—because, while he has stated the principle of toleration, he has stated likewise that he does not think there ought to be any grant of public money to teach any assenting creed, and that such instruction would be quite in ems stent with the principle of an Established Church. Now, Sir, I must say from that principle I totally and entirely dissent.—( Cheers.) I think you must adopt a principle which the Noble Lord who :poke first in this debate. has adopted from the enlightened times of the reign of Henry I V.—( Laughter.) You must say that to the Chnrch and to the Church only, was to be left the education of the people, but then that must be an education conducted as the Church then intended to con duct it, as her own establishment, with her own funds, with hero a n colleges, and without asking a vote in a Committee of Supply, which in the reign of Henry the IV , perhaps was not asked, for public education.—( Hear, and laughter.) When once you establish what I think we have now es tablished by the vote of some years—when you once establish that the public ought to promote education by grants—when you say that out of the public taxes should come money for education—that you will promote schools out of those grants, then I cannot consent to the principle that aiy persons on account of their relgion should be debarred from the Innefits of those grants—(Cheers)-- and that by giving to certain classes names which at the time may be unpopular, you should debar them from etijoying the fruits and advantages of public money which you take. indiscriminattly from their wealth, from their means, and from their resources, as well t s from those who belong to the Established Church.—(Cheers.) Sir, in asserting this principle, I do not think I am departing in the least from the great principle of an Established Church. I hold that having an Established Church that in all places • where her administration can properly be effected, the teaching of the Established Religion should be main tained ; but I do nut think that schools supported by the State mane under that denornioation.—( Hear.) While, therefore, I uphold and am ready to admire the efforts which the Church his of late years made to promote edu cation, and while I think it is just and allowable in the members of the Chu; ch to say it is necessary to teach their own doctrines in schools so supported, I utterly deny that in proposing a vote of public money, we are to be guided by such principles, or are to lay down such rules.—( Cheers.) It is a diFfereat matter in what respect this principle is to be carried into effect. There were objections made to the first plan proposed by the Government, but let it be observed, that one of tire many objections, and which the Noble Lord who proposed this motion, stated in the very commencement of his address to the Elouse, was an ad dress founded entirely on a misapprehension—it was an objection founded on the notion that the principles with regard to the teaching of religion which were to be adopted in the normal school, were to be the principle :Ina model of all the various schools in the kingdom. Now, on thin subject I will venture to read a passage from what was delivered by me in this House in February last, when I gave an outline of the plan of education to be adop ted. It must be obvious that any Government attempting any scheme of education in this country, teal find it very difficult to do so, because the ground is already occupied in difftreent parts of the kingdom ,by Societies which have taken the subject in hand, as well as by the Established Church and the Western Methodists, and ati. other Dis senting Societies, who promotecourses of education accord ing to their religious opinions. No one scheme of educa tion could be adopted without offering great violence to the feelings of the country, and such scheme must be unsuccessall if attempted. And notwithstanding this pos tage, which I think is a clear declaration of our opinions And intention, care has been taken to represent that which is a scheme for normal schools as a scheme to he adopted throughout the country for all schools.—(Cheers.) Gen tlemen have talked very much of the difficulty of carrying into effect any system of religion which in schools should be adapted to the teaching of each particular sect; and the Noble Lord the Member for Darsetshire went on for a full h elf hour about the term general religion, which is not to be found in any part of the plan or scheme. But the fact is, that with respect to religious instruction this difficulty is got over in many of the schools of this kingdom—it is got over in the schools conducted not only by the British and Foreign School Society, of which I tun a Member, and t he principles of which I certainly adopt, but it is got. over in many of the schools belonging to the Esta blished Church.—(Greet cheering.) In many of the schools, the Scriptures are read on week days, they reserve the catechisms for Sundays, and allow Dissenters to go to their own places of worship, and receive their own re ligious instruction from Dissenting teachers on Sundays. Therefore, so far from this being an insuperable difficulty, it is one which is overcome every week in the year, and not cn!y under the superintendence of a Government which has adopted a scheme which is said to be irreligious, but it is a scheme adopted by clergymen of the Established Church, wishing to instruct the people of their own parish, and at the same time to admit there ought to be an allowance made for - the faith of Dissenters, whom they were not prepared to exclude.—( Hear, bear.) I do aot wish particularly to go into the phrases objected to with regard to the first plan proposed by the Committee 'Of the Privy Council, whilst I am ready to decla-e that the principles on which that plan is founded are perfectly sound. But I must say that the gentlemen arguing is tills House, have gone far beyond what others have thought itenecessary to say, who were themselves the ministers of religion.—( Hear, hear.) We have been told it is a proof of the irreligious tendency of our schemes, that anything Would be taught in the schools which may specifically apply' to the Church of England, and those sects dissent ing from it. Do they mean to say there can be no religious inttruction except that which carefully marks the diffe rence between the Church and the Independents, or Bap tists, or any other peculiar sect? I will mention one book to which I suppose gentlemen will not object as a religous book, I mean Paley's Evidences of Christianity. Ile says he has carefully formed his arguments in such a manner as not to offend any class of Christians or those who hold any particular tenets.— ( Hear, hear.) If that be lawful in Paley—if that book is a book which any person might be glad to read, and draw instruction from—am Ito be told it is a proof that in struction cannot be given without making these distinc tions?—(Cheers.) I will mention another authority— Fenelon, who has written an admirable treatise with re gard to female education, insisting greatlyion religious in struction, stating the manner in which it should be given, pointing out that it should not be given in a formal manner, but that the child's attention be drawn to what it learns. It has been objected that the work of Fenelon on religious education for children was reprehensible, and, in conclu sion, because it did not deprive and insist upon the dis tinctive doctrines of the Protestant and the Roman Catholic Churches. It may be so ; but if these were the errors of Paley and Fcnelon, I had rather imitate the errors of such illustrious and pious predecessors than adopt the errors of the doctrines now proposed.—( Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Newark, and ether Hon. Members, have adopted exclusive doctrines, which, as I have before said, if practised, would lead the way to persecution and intole rance, fur it is clear that they would object, not only to the new grounds of education, but that they would also attack those liberties already established in this and the sister country, from the Insurrection Act down to the present time.—(Loud cheers.) With regard to the main principles of our object, lam happy to per ceive that many Hon. Gentlemen at the oppos i te side are almost ready to admit their justice. We propose that the grant should be in a great degree divided between the National Society and the British and Foreign School So ciety. And it is proposed to devote another small part of the grant to institutions which are not benefited by those Societies, on the ground of the poverty of a district, or of their schools not being connected with those So cieties. The Henourable Gentlemen opposite do not object to this, hut they deny the principle on which the 1 motion for to-night is founded. They say that they would not object to a plan a dministered by the Lords of the Treasury ; but, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer is a very harmless person at the Treasury, he would be very dangerous at the Board of the Privy Council. But they chiefly object to the proposed inspection and reports of the co Intact of schools. The proposal of to• night is 71-alluded on this fact. It is it m isfortune that a g reat deal of the edu c ited of this country—l do not now refer to the Church, or impute any blame to it—especially the education dis pensed by those two great Soci e ties—consists of rending, writing, and arithmetic, but contains nothing to affect the hearts and minds of the pupils.— It is not enough to state that there arc 59 000 children taught by the National Society, and that more than one million are combined under the tuition of the Sunday Schools. From the Reports that have been submitted to Parliament, and the Government, it seems that the qua lity of that education is exceedingly low.—( Hear, hear.) In illustration of the present lamentable state of education in this country, I could refer to many passages of autho rity, but I shall restrict myself to a few, frem Chaplains of ao ,• ls of the Church of En g land. The Chaplain of the gaol of Lancaster states, that out of 993 prisoners 37 could the incivpal was so one fraemadilitahre with the P H ea o y ly er s a c n r d ipt t u h r e es la n b d le. religion. Of 516 entirely ignorant, 124 could repea 20t the Lord's Prayer. Of 1,129 prisoners, not more than or 30 had habitually attended D:vine worship. There is an almost general desertion of the House of God, by males in the prime of life in dense populations in large towns. Now is not this a dreadful picture of the state of life amongst 'a large mass of the people of this country ?.--(1Iear)-s-and does it not deserve the serious consideration of this House, with a view whether something may not ha alone in the way of promoting sound moral, and, I may add, religious instruction?— ( Cheers.) Let it not be objected that a portion of this grant would be devoted to the promotion of Roman Catho licism and Socinianistn. I own that even is this prospect there would seem to me to be great and counterbalancing advantages —(Cheers.) The bulk of the people would at least receive instructions in the simple elements of reli gious truth; and even if I agree with the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite on Roman Catholic and Seciaian in struction, I am not prepared to say that I should be de terred to move towards them ; for I think practical infi delity and indifference are more likely to make progress amongst our dense growing population, than that refined infidelity which can only be this result cf complicated arguments that can only be appreciated by compa ratively few minds.—(Cheers.) - have piven the H ou se one extract from the opinion of the Chaplain of - the co unt y gaol cf Lancaster. I will no trespass ao far on your attention as to give to the House an extract from a Report which I received only two days ago from a clergyman from I whom I had not risked for' any — Report ore this subject, with whom I am noacquainted, but whom I never saw, whom I have, on account of his' high character, appointed to the office of Chaplain of Parkhurst Prison for juvenile con victs. lle says in his Report on the religious and moral state of the prisoners in Parkhurst Prison, - that he is surprised at the number of those who We acquired the mechanical elements of knowledge,. such as residing and writing, and who possess but t dittle actual knowledge of their moral or religious dutiesr • They have learnt to repeat the words, but have never had the subjects to which those words alluded explained to them. Fifty eight of the children were able to read and repeat the Church Catechism, forty-three possessed some knowledge of the Holy Scrlpturz s, but only twenty-nice could give a little account of what they had read, and of these the greater portion seemed to give this explanation in conse quence aan intellectual exertion made at the time, and not asehe result of memory. Another remarkable fact connected with the inmates of Parkhurst Prison was, that by far the larger proportion of them had received instruction in the various schools ,pith which this country is supplied. Oat of 103 prisoners 95 had attended different schools, 72 of them as day echelars for a longer period than a year, eight only had never been at school, and of 31 prisoners, who were seat to Parkhurst Pi ism when it was first upened, there were only two who had never attended a school. I say that lids - leservesthe attention of the Han e. Hitherto we have been too apt to ematent ourselves with enabling a child to read, and considering that when we have done so we have given that child education, bat what is really worthy to be designated as educadon, is to excite the intellect of the child, to teach it the 'meaning of the words it reads.--( Loud cheer.) The great distinction in the modern art of terching seems to me to be this, that instead of merely burdening the memory of a child, the child is excited to teach itself ; its interest and curiosity are excited so as to make it follow its lesson with pleasure, and thus instruction is obtained which is most useful in the _re ligious and moral training of the child. I will now allude to another part of the plan which has been- thesubject of much misrepresentation. I allude to the claim made by the Committee of the Privy Council to exercise the right of inspection over these schools, which are to perticipa'e in the benefit of the grant : Aids' was at once seized hold of to represent that it was the intention of the Committee to lay down its own regu lations for the guidance of these school. We have no normal 'sei.ools of our own, it would be therefore useless and impossible for us to attempt to interfere with the reli- • gious instruction adopted by the Schools of the National Society—but what we ask-is to be informed of the method of instruction pursued in those schools' which are to para.- cipate in the benefit of this gran:, and where we find a good and successful method of secular instruction, we may I well confide to the religious instruction whioh will be of the same nature--but where, on the contrary, we find that a low and coercive method of secular instruction is followed, we may rest assured that there the religious instruction will be valueless, it will f-Illike seed on barren ground —( Cheers.) On these grounds I propose the plan of the Privy Council. It contains within itself', in my opinion, two very great advantages, and by which every plan for the education of the people ought to be guided. Ido not say that the children of the Established Church should be excluded from the advantages of any plan of national education, but that all grants should go to the use of the people, without any _distinction of sect, and on this plan, of course, the greater portion of the grant will go the Na tional Church, as by far the larger number of schools are in connexion with the National Society. The second advantage is the establishment of a, good and efficient system of inspection. Timis scheme will bring, before Parliament annually the great subject of education, and it will tend to make that great and important subject a matter of interest and concern for the State which it never yc t has been. I feel, Sir, the difficulties of bringing forward any plan which does not only excite misrepresentetioa and becomes matter of patty. strug gle, but which does excite conscientious scruples and Bars in pers.:ma of excellent intenlions. I feel that obloquy to which a pint of this kind would subject me ; and allow me to say a few words upon that which has pressed on my mind in the course of the last fortnight, When I consider the conduct of former Governments, 20 or 30 years ago, I cannot but think if at the commencement of this Scssioa we had endeaeoured to excite alarm, if we had said that the Chartists Ii td excited commotion ; and that the Habeas Corpus Act mast be suspended, we should then have found, or, at least, the Government of former days would have found, that alarm was easily x- cited, and fiat the Government had set itself at the bead of the cry that had provoked the alarm —( Hear, hear.) It has been my anxious wish, and still more my anxious la bour to cedeaveur, without any alteration of the law, with out attemptiog—w d hich I was - ..:terminsd not to do ti!l the last moment, namely to destroy the constitutional rights of Englishmen, that which might interfere with acct subdue that which appeared to me to ensure the peace and security of the country ; but while I was doins, this it cer tainly appened to me that every oecasion ought to be taken—that any season eug%t to be tats en with a view of improving the state of instructioa and the reli g ious feeling and the moral condition of the people of the country ; because I am satisfied, however, such laws, if they had been proposed and carried, might have subdued discontent for the moment, your only per manent security will be not only in the knowledge and education of the people, but in their knowledge of their religious duties, their moral obligations, and their fortu nate situ ado,' in Icing the people of this great and free • - country.—(Tremendous cheering.) I do feel, Sir, that in doing this, in attempting this. I have had more opposi tion to encoun•er than if we had taken the other course and proposed measures of severity and coercion. Ido not mind that opposition. lam not to ,be-deterhed by the taunts of the Ilan. Men.ber for Newe.ik,--(Great cheer ing)—who.has seat Ai his surprise that, after being defeated oft former scheme', thould Ire attempting another p'an. I cannot forget that in some plans we have been thwarted —(Tremendsus cheeriog)—but, et the some time, I am cheered by the coevistion that l hove brqA successful in firmer years in striking off from the IYFFenters the ecgrad ing fetters of the Test and Corporation Acts. I am I quite prepared for opposition against. plans of this descrip tion.—(Ctice:s ) - I am quite prepared, when I find these measures opposed, to expect that they will be misunder stood and misrepresented, and that even the No Popery cry should be raised up tmgainst them.—(Great c h eer i ng -) But let not the lion. Member f o r Newa r k p r id e himself en such victories—(Continued cheering)—for I must tell him that I don't think he will succeed in imposing aeaia those fetters that have been removed—(Cheers)—and I do from my heart believe that upon father discussion the great cause of education, not only to the members of the Church of England, but to all the members of the com munity, will prosper and flourish, and we shall have the happiness of seeing these degrading pictures of 1839 be come the pictures of past times, and the only wonder will be that they were ever the true pictures of the state of - England —(The Noble Lord sat down amidst tremendous cheering, which Imted for several minutes.) Sir R. PEEL then rose, and addressed the House as follows : —Sir, I shall not be sorry to escape .from the discussion of some of the more important topics adverted to in this debate, not because I undervalue their importance, but because I consider many of them too important fur discussion at this late hour.—(Heer, hear.) I will net undertake to defend every opinion advanced in the course of this debate.—( Laughter.) I shall confine myeelf rather to the consideration of the particular merits of the proposition on which we are called upon to decide, than 'consider whether the opinions cf my lion. Friend the Member for Newark are speculative opinions. If, however, I should enter into them at this time of the night, I should only , be imitating the example of the Hon. Gentleman opposite in deviating from the consideration of that which is the practical question before the House— whether, upon the whole, it is the best, that the motion of my Noble Friend shall be acceded to for an address to the Crown, to cencel the Order in Council appointing the Committee repecting Education. Sir, I give my cordial concurrence to that motion ; and it seems to me that her Majesty's Ministers have b en rather anxious to shrink from the consideration of its merits.— i ( li la c o h u i d n el o i w eet p -s ro f e r e o e m d the Opposition. ) Sir, I object to the Government schem e upon three or four distinct grounds, w to state. Firs., that I object ht the deciding so important a question as tile laying the foundation of National Edu cation by a single vote of this House.—( Hear, hear.) Instances have been quoted in which sums were placed under the control of the Government without obtaining the sanction of the other House. But it does not follow that because upon uncontested points this course has been decided tip in, :hat the whole question of National Education shall be settled by a vote of this House alone.—(Hear, hear.) beware are t o e of huntede nemt c o o u n t: e I o f s i s t i should, o w e -1 , 1 ; %- ) _ t f.i advise h you analogiesto t depend upon it the next innovation will be much larger. — (Load cheers.) The Noble Lord (J. Russell) says, forsooth, that this is a mere question of inspecting of schools. Why, the original proposal at least was that " five of her Majesty's ser vants should be appointed to consider all matters affecting the education of the people."—(Cheers.) If I had troposed that in 18;35—what would the Dissenting bodies have said ?—:( Loud cheers.) Would net their apprehensions have been provoked? Would not their fears have been alarmed ? Should I not have been called upon to respect their feelings?—(Cheers.) And is it not ratutal that the Members of the Established Church should feel a similar alarm at the appointment of this Committee, which may be hereafter pressed upon them as the admission of a principle , the carry i ng out of which the y m ust not oppose ; the laying of a foundation which necessarily involves the superstr ucture.—( Cheers.) Sir, I object to this Cnncomposed entirely of Members of the Exe cutive';ttee being Government. Mar, hear.) It is not a Committee of Council, it is a Committee of the Executive Government. Now that Executive Government have other duties to pet form, other interests to consult.—( Loud cheers.) They may feel it their duty to make lace concessions for the purpose of keeping their places—(Cheers)—not for any unworthy object—they may think it their duty to retain their offices. Loud laughter and cheers.) Observe, they do not constitute a body inde-• pendent of party, independent of political considerations— (Hear)—bn. exclusively of the Members of the Government, who may feel it necessary, in order to maintain nearer interests—in order to preserve themselves from dismissal by this House—to make larger concessions—(Cheers) —they may consider eduntion as a secondary point.—( Hear, hear.) , hy l , lea th r at S i : e the very essence of the Constitution is jealousy of the Exe cutive; and I have a right—without personal imputations—to whet have we lately seen? We have seen a Ministry return to presume that pewee may be abused.—( Hear, bear.) fiSn office after having declared that they had lost the confidence lv of this House. —( Cheers. ) What's y t o o ur do de s f o ence ( ? Hear a great necessity called upon year it is an open . goes_ —a . st you you to make the same stater may net a great necessity (. f the ' l3all-t ) Last, question, from -our abst t ring. Now, why is that so? o 3 rac conviction the merits of the question s y t e al r eita it e , t v e as ag o a o in t ? st T t a o k p e en the case 0 0 , this as _(Cries of " Hear, y, bound to consi fn your • of the enlarged and comprehensive interests of 'the moors eu Ary, but it is involvsd in yeur maintenance of power,— heare)meet because the concestion cfnential pendent upon part deratiens of party interest in the Government, the body that shall form its ranks furne-h the members of a Committee to consider all matters affecting the education cf the people.— (Cneers.) If that is de ( !dem.) What said the Hon. Member for Lambeth, as a re commendation cf this measure? 'Why, he said to her Majesty's Government. by the proposal of this measure do not be alarmed. You have done more to recommend yourselves to the Liberal Members of this I-Inuee, arid to the Liberal constituency of this yol.lecuve . ii t c ountry, than you have done by any other proposal Made.—( Hear, bee: . ) Ite it so, but may 110 t the ex,iacn Now, of the measure be as necessary as the proposal. N U