The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-21 00:00:00

ing that circumstance, they have, for the three years ending in 1819, been gra dually gaining ground on British ships. Can you state the difference of expence of ship-building in this country, and in the North of Europe ? Ships may be built in the North of Europe; fir ships for less than half the money they are built for in this country ; oak ships for about two-thirds. Do you speak from your own knowledge, or from information ? From informa tion I am constantly in the habit of receiving from persons coming from those countries ; and front accounts I have actually seen of the cost, the fir ships answer the purpose for the timber trade, though of course they are very inferior to the British ships. What is the comparative cost of fitting a ship for sea in the ports of the Baltic and in the ports of Great Britain ? Every material article is considerably cheaper there, for this reason—that it is not 'subject to the duties to which it is liable in this country ; I hardly know one exception. Do not the duties now, in consequence of the depression of the price of all raw materials employed in the manufacture of articles necessary for fitting ships to sea, bear much more heavily upon the cost of those articles than they did when the price was comparatively higher ? I think in a twofold degree, as nearly as I can estimate it. What is the duty on hemp now ? Ten pounds a ton, and a fraction more. What is the price of hemp ? Forty pounds per ton. What was the duty on'hemp in 1813 ? I think the same. 'What was the price of hemp in 1813 ? I will obtain the price, for the in formation of the committee ; but I think it was at least double the present price, and was so for a great part of the war. So that the duty upon that article, which was about one-eighth or one-ninth in 1813, is now one-fourth ? Yes. Are you to be understood, that notwithstanding the duty appears to bear harder in proportion to the price of the hemp, it is, in fact, to the ship-owner in this country not much more than one-half of the price it was in the year 1813 ? I mean to say, that in the year 1813 the price of the hemp was, I think, 801. and now it is 40L What proportion do the freights of 1813 and 1820 and 1821 bear to each other ? At the time hemp was double freights were double. Does the nature of your business give you opportunities of observing the actual situation of British shipping, and of persons dependant upon it ? Very much What do you conceive their situation to be at present, in relation to capital and profit? The situation of the British ship-owner I apprehend to be at present just this, in relation to capital ; that, since the peace, he has sustained R reduction in the value of his property of full 50 per cent. I mean, that a ship of precisely the same quality in all respects, that would formerly have sold readily for 4,0001. will now with difficulty fetch 2,0001. ; and that part of his capital which remains to him is producing to him no income. When I say no income, I mean that there is not enough left to him at the end of the year to make up for the gradual dete rioration in the value of his property. Have the effects of this state of things shown themselves in any visible conse nuences among the ship-owners ? They have so, very plainly. Those ship-owners who had property independent of their shipping have been obliged to have re course to that property for their maintenance. A second class of ship-owners have been obliged to sell off their ships to pay their debts ; and a third, and a very nu merous class, are at. this time gradually accumulating debt with their tradesmen. I speak now particularly of those engaged in the timber trade. I am told that the quantity of debt due in that way, from ship-owners to the tradesmen, in the North of England particularly, is greater than it was ever known. Would not additional distress be created among the ship-owners by any such regulation of the duties on timber as should throw a greater proportion of it into the hands of the northern powers of the Baltic, and diminish the proportion of it now carried on by the British colonies in North America ? Certainly, to a most serious extent, shipping having now more than ordinary difficulties to contend with ; any thing that tends to throw it out of employment must very much ag gravate those difficulties; and with respect to some large towns upon the coast, I mean particularly North and South Shields, Sunderland, and Whitby, I think the consequences would be fatal to a degree that I can - hardly venture to state to the committee; and I say this from being in constant intercourse with those places. Has there been any great reduction in ship-building in this kingdom ? There is no return made up for last year ; but from all the observation I have been able to make, I have no doubt it will be found that in 1820 there has been a large reduc tion in the number of ships built. Has not that reduction been progressive for some years past ? No, I think not; I think the ships built for the India trade expressively have prevented the reduction that would otherwise have taken place. Ido not think there is any considerable reduction ; independently of which, persons possessed of ship-building yards are obliged to keep apprentices and other persons about him, so that there is always a certain quantity of ship-building which must go on, whether ships are wanted or not. Can those ships, when finished, be sold without a very heavy loss? Certainly not. Are you able to state the comparative rate of seamen's wages between .British ships and the ships belonging to the northern powers of Europe ? The rate of wages paid in British ships in the Baltic trade is 50s. per man per month ; the rate of wages paid to foreign seamen in the same trade varies from 18s. up to 275. per man per month. The victualling, in foreign ships, is about 6d. per man per day; in British ships, from Is. 3d. to Is. 6d. per man per day. Can you state, from your own knowledge, how the Norway trade was carried on previous to the increase of the duty in 1809 ? Previous to 1809 I was engaged in a. house at an outport, which imported pretty - considerably from Norway ; we had, in the course of four or five years, from 40 to 50 cargoes from Norway, only one of which came in a British ship, which we sent out by way of experiment; but not finding it answer, it was never repeated. Supposing the consumption of American timber in this country should be re duced one half, what effect would that have upon British shipping ? To throw out of employ just one-half of the number of ships engaged in that trade. Supposing it should be reduced one-fourth ? It would then throw out of em ploy one-fourth of the British shipping at present engaged in it. Would any measure, which had for its object a gradual reduction in the em ployment of British shipping in this trade, be less prejudicial to the interests of the British ship-owner than a measure which would immediately considerably re duce the consumption of American timber? It would—only the difference be tween dying at once and a lingering death. It appears by a paper before the committee (the deposition of a sworn broker at Memel) that in the year 1819 the Prussian trade from Memel employed 268 British ships, and that there were but 63 ships under the Prussian flag which went to Great Britain ; how do you account for-that circumstance, if the foreigner can navigate on so much better terms than the British ? I doubt the correctness of that report, because it differs from the official report presented to the House of Lords. You state, that if a reduction was to take place in the importation of timber from the American colonies to the extent of one-half, to that extent British shipping would be thrown out of employ; do you not consider that in such case a con siderable increased exportation would take place from the Baltic to make good the defiCiency from America ? I consider that very nearly the same quantity would come altogether into the market, either from the one place or the other: but as I believe that a great part of that would come from Norway, I find, by the official returns, that the Norwegian has five-sixths of the carrying trade. I find that Prussia has one-half of it; and I will here state the actual tonnage em ployed in 1819, from the official documents presented to the house of Lords. In 1819 there arrived from Prussia, foreign tonnage 78,266, British tonnage 80,258 ; the quantity from Sweden of foreign tonnage, in the same year, was 20,165, of British tonnage 21,988 ; from Norway, foreign tonnage 82,689, British 17,087 ; on which ground it appears to me that very nearly the whole of that trade would go into the hands of foreigners. Then you are of opinion that the quantity of timber deficient in the American importation would be supplied from the Baltic, but that that supply from the Baltic would come chiefly in foreign tonnage ? I think that very nearly the whole quan tity would come, not quite as much, for we have American pine so cheap, that that produces a consumption, in my opinion, which would not take place if it were dearer. In point of fact, is there not above a moiety imported from the North of Europe to England, imported in British shipping, deals being included in timber ? No, I conceive not. Is 'not nine-tenths of the timber aid deals imported from Russia imported in British shipping? Certainly. Is not three-fourths of the timber imported from Memel imported in British shipping ? No, only one half. You do not refer to Memel in particular ? No, to the whole of Prussia. In regard to Sweden, what proportion ? One half. From Norway ? Five-sixths foreign. May not such a countervailing duty be laid on timber so imported in foreign bottoms as to lead to a preference of British chipping ? Certainly. If such a measure was adopted, would not British shipping be in a great mea sure compensated f o r the fallin g off of the American trade ? Certainly not ; for one-fourth of the quantity of shipping would do the work. Do you mean to say that a ship will make four Baltic voyages in the time she will make one American ? I mean to say she will make six from Norway, three or four from Prussia, and two from Russia in a season. In point of fact, what number of voyages do the ships now usually employed between the ports of Russia and London make in one season ? Two voyages, and often one from a lower port in the Baltic besides. . From the lower ports of the Baltic ? Three or four. From Nbrway ? Six. How many from the lower ports of the North American colonies ? To the west side of the land it is very common to make two voyages ; from the lower ports of America, from Quebec, not so usual ; and to the east coast generally seldom more than one from either the lower ports cr Quebec. Are you not aware that the ships employed from the port of Liverpool in the trade to Canada are in the habit of making two voyages ? It is certainly not very common to make two Quebec voyages ; they have tried at two for the last year or two. Have you known any instances of three voyages having been made from the lower ports of America to Liverpool in one season ? I have never heard of its being done but once ; once I have. Then, in point of fact, the average of Baltic voyages is three in the season : the average of American two ? 1 would by no means say that the average of Ameri can voyages is two; that is the extreme number: I think the average would be something like one and a half. In paint of fact, ships sailing in the regular season, i s it not customary f or t h em to make two voyages from the British colonies to the west coast of England ? I said so before. Is is r..ot also, in point of fact, the practice to make two voyages to the east coast G:Ttainly not. Aye you acquaimed with the rates of freight that ivere'eurrent last year from the , ts of the. British colonies to the port of London ? Yes. nem Quebec to London in 1820, 475. Gd. to 50s. per load; froth tots, 40s. to 425. the lowa Was tlic rate uf freight iron! Quebec, generally speaking, nearer 50s. than 475.? Nearer to 475. 6d. than to 605.; we did business at both prices, but it was done principally at 475. Gd. Can you state the current rates of freight during the last season, from the lower ports of the Baltic ? From Memel 20s. to 21s. • Was that about the rate of the average of the lower ports ? Yes, it was. Can you state the current freights from the lower ports of the North American colonies, to the west coast of the kingdom ? From five to ten shillings a load higher than to London, on account, of the different mode of measuring ; a different mode of measuring prevails, which makes the nominal freight higher. Then in point Of fact, after making allowance for the difference of measurement, the rates of freight are nearly the same ? I think nearly so ; rather less in point of fact to the west coast than to the east. Then how do you account for the circumstance you have stated, that vessels employed in the trade making on an average only one voyage, or a voyage and a half in the season, carry timber at, the same rate of freight as they do where they make two voyages in a season ? If a ship makes a voyage to London, she is more conveniently situated for a voyage to the Baltic, than if she comes to Liverpool, if she comes to the west side of the land she is more conveniently situate to make a second American voyage. Can you state the current freight of timber from Memel, or other lower ports of the Baltic, to the west coast of the kingdom ? From one-third to a half more than to the east coast. That tact is within your own knowledge ? Perfectly. Then the committee are to understand, that the freight from Memel was from 265. to 30s. to Liverpool ? Liverpool imports so little from the Baltic, that I should rather say the freight to Bristol was 28s. to 30s. What relation does the measurement of Bristol bear to that of London ? The difference on American timber, between Bristol and London, will be from 12 to 18 per cent, according as the timber is well or ill squared ; from Memel the timber being better squared, the difference will be found to be not above 5, 6, or 7 per cent. Do you know that the merchants who are in the habit of importing timber from the British provinces of North America have given ship-owners who have applied for freights notice, that if any additional duty is imposed on timber from North America, they must have a proportionate reduction of freights for the ensuing season ? They have said they will not be able to take any ships at all ; they have told me so repeatedly. Do you happen to know, that in consequence of the expectation of a duty being imposed immediately upon the American timber, the ship-owners raised the price of freight upon the merchants immediately ? On its being understood that ships would be allowed to make one voyage, the ship-owners immediately attempted to obtain an advance of freight, thinking that a large number of ships would be wanted to make that single voyage ; in fact every ship would have gone to sea. Are you acquainted with the prices of timber in the Liverpool market? I can give them pretty nearly. State what was the price of American yellow pine timber three months ago in that market ? It was down as low as fifteen pence per foot. State what is the present price of such pine ? I think about sixteen to seventeen pence ; I know it has improved about a penny or twopence a foot. You admit an advance of some importance has taken place in that market ; to what circumstance do you impute that advance? To the market being depressed from the extreme importation at one particular moment, and to a sort of re-action which takes place every day. Is it not, in point of fact, in contemplation oe some duty being laid on American timber ? I should not think it is ; lam quite certain that in London not an advance to the smallest fraction has taken place on such a speculation. Is it not a fact, that in the. Liverpool market considerable purchases of timber have been made on speculation, with that result in view ? lam net competent to answer that question. Have you heard that has been the fact in the London market? I am satisfied that in the London market there has not been an advance of a single fraction ;.with what secret views purchases have been made, I cannot say. , Have you heard of large perchases in wood being made by dealers lately ? I believe none have been made ; I only heard of the purchase of 500 loads, which I thought was purchased with a view to the duty. You have stated that the causes of the difficulty at present felt by the shipping interest, arise from the demand for transports having ceased, and from more com petition - existing with foreign countries ; are not the committee to infer from that, that the existing state of the shipping very much exceeds the natural demands of thii country ? If the American trade remained open to us, and we had in other respects a brisk trade, I am satisfied there is not a ship too much in the country, because in 1818 when we had something like briskness in trade, we were rather at a loss to find ships than to find freights ; from that time to this it has been always the reverse, but in 1818 I am satisfied we were often at a loss to find ships so quickly as the merchants required them. Is not the price of freights at the present moment, a proof that at this time the shipping is very much beyond the natural demands of the country ? At the present moment certainly, because we conceive the trade of the country to be very much stagnated at present. 'Do you think that the amount of shipping which was employed in transports, and which has ceased to be employed as such, would have been built with a view to the natural demands of the country ? I think the American trade has taken off the whole quantity that was employed for transports. I believe the number of ships in the transport service never exceeded 1,020, and I find that latterly that number has been employed in the American trade, over and above such quantity of tonnage as would have brought the same wood from the north of Europe ; therefore I con ceive that the American trade has taken off the surplus tonnage arising from the cessation of the demand for transports. Then how do you account for the depressed state of the freights at present? Because, as I have said before, trade is very much stagnated at present ; if we had ordinary briskness in trade, the American trade remaining to us, I do not believe we should feel that. Have you any reason to believe that the American trade can be carried on so as to continue to employ its present amount of shipping ? I think the American trade has been overdone within the last year or two, as every other trade has been. You have stated that the ship-owners are proceeding in that trade, at a loss ? Decidedly. Is it possible they can continue to go on with that trade at a loss ? They find that their ships get more injury from lying by than from going to sea, and there are a certain number of persons, apprentices and others, employed about a ship, who must be paid whether the ship is employed or not ; that the ship goes to sea not only with the prospect of loss, but really with almost certain loss before their faces ; they do continually send their ships to sea. - When spoke of the building of ships in the north of Europe, did you speak of it as applicable to Norway only, or to all the. countries in the north df Europe ? I spoke very much with reference to Sweden, which is a large ship-building country. ' Not to Prussia or Russia ? Also with reference to Prussia ; and having in my view a very recent instance of a ship built in Prussia; with respect to Russia, nothing I apprehend, would tend so much to give her a commercial navy, as encouraging her to build ships in Russian Finland, where they can build cheaper, perhaps, than in any other part of the world, and very large ships. Do you know that, some time ago, a certain'numberof Russian ships were em= ployed in the timber trade, and that in consequence of the cheapness ofEnglish ships, they were laid aside ? I know that ships, which had been employed under licences during the war, and were remaining on hand at the return of peace, were attempted to be employed in the wood trade ; I believe those ships have ceased to be so em ployed, and have been disposed of in any way they could be ; but I take them to be no criterion for the general state of the country, inasmuch as they were owned prin cipally in England, and not at all under that sort of economical management, which a ship belonging regularly either to Russia or elsewhere, has the advantage of. If the comparative advantages in favour of the ships of the north are.so great as has been stated by you, how do you account for the English ships having preserved so great a proportion of the trade as they have ? I can only state the facts, and refer to the official reporti, to shew that such respective quantities of shipping have arrived in this country ;, I believe that neither of them are making money. Be good enough to inform the committee what quantity of timber in loads was imported from the British North American colonies to this country, in each of the last two years ? Extracting it from the official . report presented to the House of Lords, I can give it for 1818 and 1819, if that will answer the purpose ; the quantity of timber imported from British North America, in 1818, was 214,102 loads, in 1819, 267,085 loads. What quantity do you consider may be about the average of each cargo ? Three hundred to three hundred and fifty loads. Is not the average tonnage of shipping, employed in that trade, nearly 300 tons? Very nearly, I think, 280 to 300 tons. Then is not 330 loads a moderate average? There are many small ships come to the bye-ports. Is not 350 loads a moderate average to estimate their cargoes by ? Not if you are looking to timber ; there will always be at least fifty loads of broken stowage. Fix what you consider to be a fair average of cargoes ? In the year 1819, there were upwards of 1,500 voyages made in the year; the ships, upon an average of the whole kingdom, do not make more than one and a half voyage in a season. In speaking of the number of ships employed in the transport service, I have stated the extremest number of ships, employed in that service, at 1,020; that was not the number at the conclusion of the war. How many do you think ? I-should think seven or eight hundred. The committee are to understand, that your conclusion is founded on your estimate, that the ships so employed do not make a voyage and a half in.a year ? Just so. Can you form any idea, with - respect to the tonnage of the British anti foreign shipping bringing timber to this country from Russia ? I have no doubt that nine tenths of the wood from Russia comes in British ships, and perhaTs more ; nine tenths of the whole of the tonnage from Russia is British, by the official reports. Is it within your knowledge, that in various parts of the country during the last year, ship-building has been continued to a considerable extent ? It is within my knowledge that it has been continued, but not to the same extent as the year before ; and it is unavoidable, that, to a certain extent ship-building must go on, • or those establishments be entirely broken up and abandoned. Does the business of a ship-builder require any establishment which would draVi him into expense, by abandoning his building for any time, or by reducing his amount a building ? He must always have a number of apprentices ;• he must always have premises, and always a stcck of timber, because he is not merely a ship-builder, but a ship-repairer ; and if he could not, ,while his temporary jobs of repairs are not going on, employ his apprentices, and take off such timber as has not been used for repairing ships, by ship-building, he could not carry on his business. His apprentices do not cost him much, do they ? lam not practically informed upon that subject ; there is a whole establishment which must be kept up ; and cer tainly with respect to the past two years, Ido *not think a single ship has been sold at a profit to the builder, though he has been obliged to build them. ' Have any new ships been introduced into the Canada timber trade, within the last two years ? No, I dare say not ; Ido not know any instance. Yonsay you are particularly acquainted with the shipping trade in the ports of North and South Shields, and Sunderland ? Very much so. D o you know the number of ships engaged from those ports in the Canada trade ? In 1819 there were from North and South Shields, I think 209 ships, entirely en gaged in the American trade, large ships. • How many men were employed in navigating those ships ? s The number of men and boys employed in those ships in 1819 was 2,900. You are of opinion, that if any new duties were laid on the Canada timber, a very large proportion of those ships would be laid up, and the ship-owner would be compelled to give up his voyage to Canada ? ram quite satisfied of that. You are also aware that there is large ship-building in that river ? Yes. You are of opinion that a duty imposed on the American timber will tend ma terially to injure the ship-building trade in that river? Yes, unavoidably. Do you mean to state that any amount of duty laid on the colonial timber would have that effect ? I would beg to say that I think a very small duty on American timber, would have an advantage that would counterbalance the evils to be ap prehended ; but when I say very small, I lay great stress upon the words very small ;I am satisfied it must be very small indeed. I refer to an advantage in respect cf improving the quality. Do you mean 10s. a load ? No, I mean 55.; but when I find that the freight cannot possibly be lower, but requires an increase, and that the timber now does not leave its ccst in the colonies ; it is difficult to say where any duty is to be got frcm ; but still I would not conceal that there are some advantages attending a very small duty. Can you, from your experience as a man of business, suppose it possible that merchants will continue, year after year, a trade which is unprofitable to them ? Certainly not; I apprehend no merchant will continue, year after year,,in trade that is unprofitable to him ; but a ship-owner is in that sort of situation, that even if he sends his ship to sea to lose money, he is obliged to do it from circumstances I before stated. So that you would wish to give to the committee, as your opinion, that mer chants will go on trading to'a loss, that ship-owners will go on employing their ships to a loss, and that people will go on building ships to a loss, for any length of time ? Till they are ruined ; they have been doing it for the last two years progressively ; the shipowners are so situated, that they cannot help themselves. "What reason have you to suppose that any duty laid on the colonial timber, would not fall upon the consumer of timber? I mean to say that a duty laid upon colonial timber, which would have the effect of increasing the import from the Baltic, would, principally affect the relative import from the two countries, without any particular reference to the consumer. Are you, therefore, of opinion, that if the colonial timber were 10s. a load higher, the Baltic timber remaining at its present price, the consumption would turn from the colonial timber to the consumption of Baltic timber ? Undoubtedly, to a certain extent. , With a difference of 10s. ? To a certain extent ;if it were above that, it would throw the consumption wholly on the Baltic. What other interests do you apprehend would be affected, besides the shipping interest, by any measures which should throw British shipping out of employment ? In the first place, the foreign trade, particularly with Russia, by very much de creasing the demand for hemp, flax, and other articles which are consumed, and particularly hemp, wholly by shipping; also the home trade, by diminishing the demand for oak, fir, elm, iron, and copper ; a ship bound to the British colonies, spends her whole freight either in this country or in the colonies ; a ship bound to the Baltic, spends a very small portion of it here, and often goes to sea without taking a single cask of Irish provisions ; a ship bound to America, will take from eight to ten casks, but a ship to the •Baltic, can get every thing cheaper as soon she gets to Elisneur. Can they get a cask of provisions in Norway ? I am speaking of the Baltic trade; I have no doubt the American trade has occasioned a consumption of some thousand casks of Irish provisions annually, which would not otherwise have been consumed. From what documents do you get that fact respecting Irish provisions, when go ing to America ? From my own personal experience; they get it in the port of Lon don, or wherever they fit out before they go ; a ship bound to the Baltic, gets all her groceries and spirits at Elsineur, where she gets them free of duty ; there has been about a million of money within the last two or three years paid annually for freight in the colonial trade, the whole of which has been circulated either throughout England, or the colonies. You have stated, that a considerable number of ships, to the extent of nearly 1,000, were employed in the transport service during the war, and that have since been engaged in the merchant service ; were not many of those ships built for Chat service ? and was not the remuneration they received, whilst employed in it, an inducement tp the building of those ships, they considering it a compensation for the risk the owners took upon themselves, cf not finding beneficial or regular employment for them on the return of peace ? The transport service was very profitable; and I have no doubt many ships were built with a view to it. Mr. TViitiam Wilssn, called in ; and examined. In what office are you ? Searcher in the customs at Quebec. How long have you resided in that part of the world ? I went cut there in the beginning of the year 1802, and have resided there till last November, and am about to return. _ _ Are you acquainted with the durability of timber of that country ? I have had a knowledge of a number of buildings of wood of that country; houses that were standing at the time that I arrived in the country, and are standing now ; to all appearance I should suppose they had been standing many years prior to my goiog to the country, and I left them standing, many hundreds. Have you heard of many houses there being infected with the dry rot ? No, never ;n my life. I never heard that mentioned in the country. Has Use population of Canada been much encreased of late years ? Very much encreased, chiefly from the Irish and Scotch emigrants ; there have been some English, but chiefly Scotch and Irish. Has the timber trade furnished considerable employment to those emigrants? Undoubtedly, a great deal of employment. In what way? In cutting, and. about the wharfs, and about the town, in dif ferent ways. Do you confine their occupation to the town and its neighbonrhood? No, not a twentieth part ; I am told that they are employed up the country, but I have not been up the woods. Do you know whether they are employed in agriculture, or in the woods ? I am told considerably in both. Do you happen to know that it is usual to cut by gangs of Americans, who come down for that purpose ? There is a great deal cut by both ;an immense number of logs are cut by the Canadian farmers themselves, where there are no Americans employed. Do you know the fact, that there is wood cut by any Canadian farmer, with a view to exportation ? Yes, a great number by Canadians in the neighbourhood of Quebec. Did yqu ever hear of any Scotch and Irish emigrants employed in cutting trees in the forests ? Yes, Scotch and Irish ; not that I have seen them, not having been up the country ; there is a person of the name of Kennedy, a Scotchman, who brings down immense rafts. Is Kennedy a farmer or a woodcutter? He is both a farmer and a lumber mer chant; he brings it down from the woods; he cuts it down, and brings it to Que bee ; there are a father and three or four brothers. Do you know any thing of the wood from the United States, which comes through Canada? I have heard it mentioned that there is some oak and pine that comes from the territory of the United States. Do you know to what amount? No, Ido not; I have not any knowledge of the quantity. Do you know any means that there is of distinguishing that which comes from the United States, and that cut within our own provinces ? No, Ido net; at the present time there is a Mr. Campbell here, who is in the lumber trade at Quebec, and he is a cutter of timber, and also a merchant. • _ Would the farming population of Canada, who are at present employed in the timber trade, find any other employment, if that trade were discouraged or dimi nished? I should suppose an immense number of them would find very great inconvenience, and would suffer very much, because the timber is cut in the winter season, when they have no other employment but that cutting; when there are perhaps six or eight feet of snow on the surface of the earth, it is impossible for them to till land or any thing of that kind; they have nothing to do but to cut the lumber; there, is no other occupation they can attend to but that. Would the inhabitants of Canada have the same means of paying for British manufactures, if their exports of lumber were diminished? No, certainly not. Do you think any considerable emigration from the province would be the con sequence of any material diminution of that trade? It is very probable; I think that a great number of people would go to the States; a great number of the Scotch. Are you not aware th . at at present the tide 'of emigration sets very strongly in from the States to Upper Canada? No, lam not. Are you acquainted with Upper Canada? No, lam not much ; no further than I have heard mentioned; 1 have a knowledge that a great number that come to Quebec as emigrants, go through directly into the States. Does not the timber form a material object of exportation From Quebec? Yes, it is in fact the staple commodity of the country, that if that trade is cut off, the country will be totally ruined. Were you acquainted with the country before the existence of that trade, so as to state to the Committee whether those provinces were not then in a state of tolerable prosperity and affluence ? No, it was d very poor place indeed at the time there were but about 100 ships went there in the course of a year; the country was not a tenth part in affluence what it is now ; the province has become a power ful country since that period. since the years 1807 and 180,8. You ascribe that principally to the timber trade? Yes. Is it not a natural consequence that it is from the means of that timber trade, that the inhabitants are enabled to derive their supplies from this country ? Yes, I consider it in that light. . _ [Adjourned till To-morrow, one o'clock. Veneris, 23 die l'ebruarii, 1621. The Right Honourable THOMAS IVALLAcE, in the Chair. Mr. John Diston Powles again called in; and further examined. Adverting to the evidence you gave yesterday,,as to the number of voyages made in a season by ehips employed in the timber trade to the British colonies in North America, state to the committee the result of your further investigation upon that sub ject? I have looked particularly to the ships which I have had to do with for the years 1819 and 1820, and I have this morning communicated with two or three prin cipal brokers in the same trade for the same purpose, and I find, that of ships coming to the east coast, not more than one in five has made two voyages in a season ; to the west coast they most generally make the second voyage ; I dare say, perhaps nine out of ten, or nineteen out of twenty, may have done it upon an average ; therefore I am satisfied, that when 1 said yesterday a voyage and a - • half was made on the average by every ship in the trade, I rather overstated it than understated it. Those ships that have made only one voyage from the east coast, at what period of the season have they generally sailed from hence ? I speak of ships sailing in the early part of the year, in the month of April. In the very early part of April ; the ship-owners, especially in the north of yai g iapa, have found a second Voyage so destructive to the materials of the ship, that they have many of them determined not to make it all, and have, in their club-regulations, discouraged a second voyage being made. In point of fact, is it not usual, particularly on the west coast, when ships con template a second voyage, that they sail from this country early in March, or not later than the middle of that month ? That entirely depends upon the port at which they seek to load; if they go to the bay of Fundy, they may sail in the middle of March to all the other ports ; it is almost useless attempting to sail before the last week in March, or the first of April. Do you include Miramichi ? I include ilfiramichi ; the timber is seldom ready there for ships sailing before the first of April. Then it would appear, it is more from an apprehension of expence, or disasters attending a second voyage, that ships are deterred from attemptingit from the east coast, than that the time from the middle of March to the conclusion of the season would not, in the ordinary course of events, be sufficient for that purpose ? It is partly from the first of those causes, and partly from the second. Do you not consider that ships sailing from the port of London in March, for the North American colonies, and meeting with ordinary dispatch there, and the same on the return here, have sufficient time in the ordinary course of events to perform two voyages ? I will state, that from actual experience in the years 1819 and 1820, there were not more than from 130 to 200 ships returned to Great Britain from their first voyage, before the first of September, which is full as late as a ship ought to sail, t o ma k e h er sec o n d vo y age sa f e ly an d conveniently. Can you speak . to when the ships that arrived after the first of September de parted from this country ? I can only say, generally, that they departed at the usual time. I take the course of the trade for two years. Then the Committee are to understand, it is a more convenient arrangement for ship owners trading with the North American colonies from the east coast of the country, to make one American and one Baltic voyage than two American ? Not only more convenient, but in very many cases it is utterly impracticable to make two. On the west coast it suits them better to make two American voyages than to adopt any other system ? Certainly. Can you inform the Committee what proportion of the timber of North America is brought to the markets on the east coast, and what proportion to the markets on the west coast of the kingdom, including Ireland in the last description? I am not at present competent to answer that question. Do not ships belonging to the eastern ports principally carry on the trade be tween America and the western ports of this kingdom ? They do so to a large ex tent ; the Shields and Whitby ships constantly return to Liverpool. Has the present system of duties on wood had the effect of decieasing the import from Russia ? I apprehend not, because I find there has been a progressive in crease in the import of wood from Russia, which I am prepared to shew to the Com mittee. I have extracted from the Lords Report the whole import from Russia, and brought it all into loads, for the more convenient observation of the Committee, and I find, that from 1800 to 1806, several years before the present system of wood duties was adopted, and during which the intercourse with Russia was perfectly free (I have carried it no further, because in 1807 the passage of the Sound was inter rupted) the average import from Russia was 105,344 loads. I have then taken it from 1814 to 1819, and I find the average for those years to be 121,837 loads ; and I find the import for the last three years, 1817 to 1819, to be greater than that of any preceding three years, 1818 and 1819 being also two years in which the largest import took place from the British colonies. The first of those comparisons is between a state of peace and war ? In war we import generally from Russia for government, which demand has almost totally ceased now. In the statement now made by you, is the import for government in the prece ding years included ? Certainly in both cases. How long has it ceased ? During the peace the import for government is com paratively very small ; there is some. Are you aware of any objection to such an alteration of the duties as should have the effect of decreasing the import of deals from Russia, and increasing it from Norway ? As respects shipping, nothirg I apprehend could be more fatal. What other objection do you see ? The other objection I apprehend to be, that Russia is an infinitely better customer to this country than Norway. Do you apprehend that the same injurious consequences would ensue to British shipping if the duty on Baltic timber were reduced, as if a duty to the same extent were'imposed on timber from the British colonies to the north of Europe ? If the duty on timber from the north of Europe were reduced, I apprehend the conse quences to British shipping would be beyond all comparison more injurious than by laying a duty on American timber. What extent of reduction of duty do you contemplate in that answer ? I believe that any reduction would produce that effect ; the greater the reduction, of course the more decided and the more instantaneous the consequences. Do not you believe, that any small reduction of the duty on Baltic timber would have the effect of raising the price of it in the country to the same extent ? I think that a small reduction of the duty on Baltic timber would have the effect of raising the price of it abroad, bat would, at the same time, lead to such au abundant con signment of it to this country as would continue the present depressed state of the market, and be bad in its result both for themselves and the colonies. Would not the demand depend upon the consumption in this country ? That hag not been found to be the case in the wood trade for the last three or four years. . Has' not that been found the case as referable to that part of it which conies from the Baltic? Certainly that has not been the case with respect to that from the north' of Europe, for the Norwegians will send here at all events if they find the least opening to do so. Do not you think that some arrangement of the duties for the protection of British shipping might have the effect of preventing any possible injury that might arise from an additional facility of import from Norway ? There would still be the circumstance before pointed out, of the capacity to bring the wood in so much smaller a proportion of tonnage __ than from the colonies. In other respects it might be effeetal ? In other respects it is practicable of course. Are you acquainted with the state of the timber trade of Memel ? Only gene• rally. - - Can you inform the Cbmmittee, what was the current shipping price of timber there during the last season ; good timber ? The price of middling timber in the last season at Memel, I think, was from .255. to 28s. a load. Are you aware that the shipperS of timber at Memel have intimated to their correspondents, that they cannot afford to supply timber for the present year, but at an advance of ss. per load ? They have offered it for this year at 305.; anti generally as to the Prussian ports, they have recommended their correspondents to buy early, es if the duty was reduced, an immediate advance of price would take place there. To what circumstance do you impute the advance that has already taken place? To the former price being too low. _ _ Do you mean lower than the shipper could purchase, or afford to supply it ? Of that I cannot possibly judge, i. can merely state the facts; if the price last year was 265. to 28s. their now asking 30s. is a proof they thought it then too low. Then in point of fact whether a reduction in the duty on Baltic timber should take place in this country or not, the price for the present season is likely to be higher, particularly at the port of Memel, during the present year than last ? Au I can say is, they are asking more, and will get it if they can. An advance in the price could only arise from an increased demand?—Of course, if the duty is lowered there would be more wanted, and that would immediately cause an increase of price, the effect of which would be just to put into the foreign merchant's pocket the difference of duty. Admitting that the trade with Sweden and Norway is dependent upon the controtd of Great Britain, inasmuch as it chiefly consists in a trade of import, what evils in your opinion might be calculated from such duties being laid on goods imported in foreign ships, as might give a decided preference to the British flag ?—There is no evil in laying a duty on foreign ships as regards British shipping, certainlY on the contrary, it is in so far a protection to the British shipping. Are there any other evils that might result from such duty being laid, in your contemplation ?— t i k s far a s regards Sweden, almost every thing British is prohibited at present, and therefore we can hardly be upon a worse footing with that country ; as far as respects Norway, our exports to it are so inconsiderable, that I cannot , contemplate any evil worth consideration. Theefore it * Would be your opinion, that it would be good policy to confine our import trade with Sweden and Norway, to our own ships ?—That is a large ques tion ; as to general Policy, it would be decidedly advantageous to British shipping' You have stated that you are of opinion, if a protecting duty is laid on timber imported in ships of Norway and Sweden to this Country, so as to give a preference to British ships, it would be productive of benefit to British shipping, might it not be expected in such case, that a countervailing duty would be laid on the shipmen t of such timber by British ships in Sweden and Norway ? No, because their grea t object is to sell their timber. You think they would submit to it think they would. Mr. David Bellhouse, called in, and examined. What is your business ?---Generally a builder and timber merchant and car' penter, at Manchester. How long have you been engaged in business there ?—Three and thirty years. During that period, have you been accustomed to make use of Baltic timber, and also American yellow and red pine timber ?—Up to within the lait twelve or fifteen years we had not made use of much American yellow pine ; since that, we hav e ' made use of a great deal of it. Have you, in the course cf your experience, had opportunities for ascertaining the durability of each of those kinds of timber, after they have been used ?--With respect to American pine, it has not been long enough in use, I fancy, to ascertain I have never seen any that has keen at all-injured by time. For what purposes have you been in the habit of using the American yellow pine The general business, what it was first used for in Manchester, was cotton ma chine?+ and after that it obtained almosf universally for packing cases ; and then it is used for building a great deal in cottages almost wholly, and in middling buildings it is us ed frequently for small scantlings, ' on 'account of its being freer from knots ; we con ceive it not quite so strong, but approaching very nearly, because a large knot in the Baltic timber would break a small scantling, when it would not be an object in a large one ; the Baltic timber being more knotty than the American pine, we can get smaller scantlings out, to be as strong or thereabouts. By small scantling, is the committee to understand that you mean joists? mean joists, and single rafters, and ceiling joists. Is it the practice to introduce the ends of such joists into the walls? Yes. Have you had an opiortnnity of observing whether, in such cases, the appear• once of dry rot has been found to exist? I have never known an instance of it. Have you known the existence of dry rot in the use of any other description 01 timber? I have, in the Baltic timber, both Dantzic and Memel. [To be continued.] LONDON : printed by THOMAS DAVISON, Whitefriars, and published by W. A. SCRIPPS, of No: 7, South Molton Street, at THE SU' OFFICE, No. I 12, 'Strand,