The Sun. — London, England, 1845-06-04 00:00:00

b eet; ftfleerit it in its present s t a t e . B y t h e d ocument p l ace d upon n of the House a few days ago it was shown that the ih-07g.ernents for the education of the students were of the tr° % wor perfect character, and the accommodation of such a ess ee as starctly t o accord with the rules of common de sets._dlt was evid en t t h e i nstitution could not remain as it *ere Th-se tecond course could nit be entertained, as they log c ot r an obligndationto d o so n th °old e su be bje to stop the amct to the Roman te :l es or Ireland, aelio ftse,° going for war d i n that country. The only course left 1 5 taL i eas tile third, and th circumstances of the country, ,as it would only E N ri ling out t h e original intention, when the grant was eel leacle—sthe p r i nc i ple of endowing and incorporating a c i 'a s a ft a . for the ed ucat i on of the priesthood of the . Rom i Rom an peti ' l l lie Church of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) W as it . a to- 'hat e t t h so new, or so extremely alarming in itself, te a, eY should at this time place the College on a right foot- KA in' bestow upon it an endowment ? The Right Reverend Ifish a o t ! who had first addressed the House last night (the se er° ho e London) stated that the students of Maynooth 41..ts.aters from a very low class. Of that fact he was not _lets but s on the contrary, was rather led to believe, from illsestnraet of the minutes of a report furnished by the Corn bl e ep e rs of Inquiry on Education in Ireland, that the school N th Inn necessary to an entrance into the College of May.- 4 0° _was both important and expensive. It was incumbent je.,;ol,andidate for admission into that College to have been Nsji° l `,is'Y and thoroughly versed in Cre=ar s Commentaries, Vb. , a the Eclogues 'and first six books of the /Eneid of b itoo l, et.ho Cicer o de Oratore, the Greek Grammar, the Ro°idth of Luean, and the Cyalopredia of X . eno er expensive education he should P ho He r,„l is not press ativ further the demands of the te'go itself, but that important part of the Bill introdue nbfeh new principle towards the Catholics of Ireland, that seep„ granted an endowment when endowments had entailed letiliTiportarit benefits on the Church of England. the system littl t : for the benefit and advancement 01 religion generally. PPli e d - thi a it might be answered that the principle should be lat, however, to the tenets of the religion to be endowed— d netil ea ,"ever, he could not admit; it was better to try an kit e° "v =better than eradicate all principle. Had they not 'seen tliaio.tr and wealth and recently a much greater step had v itle a l s a e e ns the sanctioning the endowment by private mdi isle% °' the Church in that country ? That was not new in Netted to e ndowments. A Right Rev. Prelate, whom he ‘ t i,ads e , d 'i l n i o_t , to see in his place, had stated last night that Ca 'gat 'iiuta were exceptions to that rule, but he could state ita ° all their colonies it was carried out. On that subject %11:;',3'neeessary to show that in Mauritius the . Prote.stant 244• received 1,2001. a year, and the Catholic Church %H. ; ,, i n St. Lucia tite English minister received ss a inier ,1 5 Roman Catholic 4401.—and in a similar oat en was the same principle to be seen in British Ittieciai Trinidad, Gibraltar, and their other colonies. The il e razl P :awas not new, though in Ireland it might be consi iN--- Introduced for ' the first time. He felt ready and wil i't'sfeC Measures of amelioration carried out in Irela k nd th to ofeatent, and felt convinced they could n9trshfraome it.e %la the Protestant Church in Ireland. ka 14° rather strengthen it. It had not been shown that 1 ,, k"Pert, y o , Catholic Church was desirous of taking away the t lei ee ; the Established Church, or unwilling to give over reVisied,,,Power from ' that Church to the State. Doctor fl e l te ee( t a'". O'Connell had been examined before a Com }Ze e ilt House, and they were both favourable to the in tne State ors the Roman Catholic Church, in a er milt of view. It had been said in opposition to th i s e a• do e r'4 ° the part of the Dissenting bodges, that the effect 1. ) it tits Was to support each other, and that was alleged It ee 4 P ) , orMent to i n d uce th e R oman C a th o li cs o f Ireland tend t he e , the endowm e nt of their Church, as it that other to support the Established Church. But, on he s i tup 41 , nand, it had been said in that House, that islet; apt hand, Churches could not long . co-exist. Now, % s i ; `"d to agree with the former opinion, and to admit s fo°,,endowments supported each other. He had a strong bate ' w ed that they do support each other. It was in .s,, re as all endowments to take an anti-democratic h ten . - fr as e N „,, e ndowment of the Roman Catholic Churc . in t‘ a 7the vl o "` t l° have the effect of separating the Roman Catholics 4 4, h er Dissenters, in opposition to the Established Ras He denied that the disposition of the Roman Catho °entre: idyer 14, 1 h se to the endowment al* their Church.. On the el 4 e believed that the well-disposed classes in Ireland theshown a readiness to accept the patronage, an L d or t d o eTa said r.easonable control of the State.; The Noble ‘ lll B 144 l e n a tone more audible and emphatic than th e rest dat, f ands y ° 4- - 6 ' It is a grave question to ask, w he n ce s hould li d el? r. the endowment of the Established C hurch b e t3lli assert, Will not assert—as it has with some show o f reaso n f tah l ,_ (l , that they should be abstracted from the funds o ki t - 'letle a - "ed Church. I do not know it of my own ikat ti e ft/W y i o l u tl t I have it upon authority which has been r Lordships, that there are 151 parishes in Ire- I , • at e re, there is not a single Protestant, that the ag %Lthet 'epee of these parishes is 58,0001.—( Cheers.) . 1 4,7ishib,. °11 !h a state of things is so monstrous,. that it i s no C.% sh 5 , 'tithe present state of human education, the minds it-ggseetiild consider it was time that this monstrous state of 4 1 4 14t alq t n a t ; 1 t d h b e ing r W t h a i n eh e , nd to.—(Cheers.) This, I say again, if it does exist, should no longer be ls ll° lnoi e ezia t•--(llear, hear ) These, my Lords, are my Votk e , ° !", and not the opinion of anybody else,l and have Oetir e sl°4 with the opinions of others. ( Hear, hear.) a tl it 'ule t 6 °Pinions that have arisen in my own mind from my for:t_ate" t t l y ° .f the history of that country, and from viewing tas e , fr ' e , it at a distance. • They are opinions that I have `44 1 n*lng convinced that the endowment of the Ro thlre , sal e n he a p, ,-,hurch would not be followed by results such as as e Of t i;‘' Predicted, and from the conviction that no settle lisita,Ntilasaglievances of Ireland can be called such until it th . Zeut as will ena bl e t h e p eo pl e , no t o f that count is country 41 ( y • view wi th satisfaction the state of things in 'lsi k .ll4 . l tas e *. ti o aars hear.) The Noble L ord then called attention %i 'n flit 9 1 4 law as it affected d ifferent . religious persua esto,th b el les countries on the Continent. The Protestant the iges',"'etehtUrches were seen to go hand in hand in those 'et, % p late; t e.,n Austria the Roman Catholic was the church of '‘,4thLY• 4 4 , b t there also the , Protestant faith was i n per fec t 4 tt ;an, as Bavaria, the Catholic, the Presbyterian, and the l este e lluiliC,J ° Yed urivileges all alike, and were on . terms of per "as th j i In 'Prussia there were eight millions of Pro tlnisa-4ithe "e Millions of Catholics. The King of Prussia 1 ," tty i tuoe t l of the Protestant Church, but he was also the b 'athaileot e , not virtual head of the Roman Catholic Church * ( l4 a °l tte r/- --(Hear hear.) In Hanover the Roman r 'l°--,Cati„re eligible ' to all the public o ffi ces, and the feeiguellt churches were endowed by the State. Ittaje.:e;.andtheAulholeuronf Europe . they had this spectacle, but 0 'tt ao it not. This was a monstrous state of b i t a tio e r Las na !lel a, - , ° ilier country could they find the same. In the *fa ; not to be found such another misgoverned ° lent I , 4i ,,Pos s ii,', l ) In taking a review of the state of Ireland re 4 ,1\44 1e - 1 e not to remember the growth of power of the fuze• *getli "' I Q People in Ireland. Parliament had at last hP:°Pert d the had acquired wealth. They ta it , 4 ig i t, 4 - t ee rf o hatelu t e , l ei i eiti P it r o lv e : , l: s k oerqtu y ato l to their own, and yet they re their church—a support that education to the peoe. was :hata N aliir ) ; attaeli ed l t t o en hi l s ng o e wn church as any P rote stantt in h Itsaild because he was sincerely attached to his o . wn l e ty t ▪ — i lat e i — ° • le eted to any inquiry into the state of education i s ahl ''' , ,at l t e i l, ° , °lab. Before he sat down he should wish to OrisLt. rd - "° 1 1 of the House to a statement made by a L'fitr'red ° te Whom he did not then see present, who en 'lira-at, ors e narge the crimes of the country on the il l Vet : , ef the priesthood He should read a few extracts 4 4 4;` 11 :4 e L l or e pti,rnittee of . that House, in the year 1839. L ar e4to rea t i tte o then proseeded to read from the report of a e , a, itoti a to show that Major Warburton akst4 li u other Witnesses gave evidence, proVing that the ',i tt °fp :lie priests in Ireland were most efficient pro as4e e t -te lnd obedience to the law, and that the charges "ut e „i a g ainst them were infamous and unfounded. °rEl concluded by giving his support to the C 1A N A , 0 , 141 l ~ t it h - -i r` t. V ON said, that if the Government were ;Nestl e , , Wri policy y waved give an equal mea tp4ttkorthe !), srelan.d that they g nn their colonies. He es e especially bound to do so, because Ireland L il t! t 4 h 4 re i- Cy rn i t ed i_ately at their mercy, and under their con ttls'Y h a l wa s unjust that they should refuse to Ireland t oo 1 1 ,,,‘ granted to Canaia..—( Cheers.) The Noble t he 14,7:introduced the subj ect had told them how great lue R h o B'e in the Roma); C atholic population of Ireland, thtth,stitiroseeotois:lrgaheistetzablishm tof the College of Maynooth, and see of th t a i t t e e l o a o t o v n i t g r ou . r was not confined to the , for if they looked to rth r „ °ll o n d r e t , he , Bench, or to the other House of Parliament, refe — e Pi .evidenc e of Ireland's intellectual growth also. • Peopl ed . to the growing number and power that of was the Nse ;I *4 'e ' t and and that me asure—a measure ro e , or la, de arest to their hearts—the refusal would ' late 11 raise a storm which would in his . opinion t as a ss , e e . 111 4 (R ear 'Y existence of the Protestant Church in t he Oy lt "Ilt e ," e ar• ) If they could establish that the quhes k'tlie"'uth 2,l4„the Catholic and Proteatant Churches— e- Il etti °thee pall on one side, and truth pure and unsullied liai ll4 l l v rass s Zt turn the matter as they might, the . pra ctical . I. a Mena_ ether they would permit the Catholic priest to • ph_ luea rxte instruction or instruction in a su ffi cient form. te?lr` et e , itaft e lsed last night that an educated priest was a letak,a de et " more dangerous man than an uneducated 440_ lisselorine abhorrent to his mind, for it proceeded un a b ° ink e Ptlon that a Roman Catholic priest was incapa- M nees of education. But do what they might tney '`lti e r "nain the religious instructors of the Irish ;hail e d !AI N ars hear,) The question was whether they would 14tt e hlin " . ne iliated or opposed to them—attached or ke g l Y. eo4,2,esaeg,te'litY.-- Wo u l d ( note Her , hear.) The Noble Lord said towritseed 'A g un , that it would have a beneficial effete 111 % 4 (1 1 f all the contrary, was to fly in th. %Iflift'/ *er e "Perience and human nature i tse lf, s e Pret e to believe that, because one man had spurned A nati o l ' e tl his countrso an d for that they were to desig k,al4tgebd; asanoleherous, "bc ' cause an individual . ungrate tii s ra wa s he political question, if it were a ` sin to g rant tqt, th was as co equal sin to bestow a smaller or a ny - end bh.tth,..at men `_t,he objection started by a Rev. Pre late last tsji % t ; to b e f _7 s tiu held one religion to be true, mu stass s ert. li es:d te °' es he Wholly dissented from Val th e t hat • Was thei•e no medium ? For himself, he saas k ten et n Church of Scotland differed more widely sl t h th ° did "y r s °f the Church of England, than the Church ill t, e t yti gt rt the Church of England. He did not agree ust 4 t q e aid 'let'. Prelate who addressed the House last mi e n ; h e not believe the Catholic faith to be free from I'` l os •-..(1q8 haclined to improve that which he could andshet to, 'T ear ' hear.) Another point. he wished to krw1'ai.1°444141441: the .cOnsistent in the policy they NeJ a a.r.'ntli e should pass this measure. They had IftsTuti en tile st 4," uatholic priests to their gaols and work tri t "'t " e ar)— and surely that was more than a re -044' apptie Roman Catholic faith. Surely they were 11't "ieh Chaplains, lor the y • could not say to the IN hat n 'e last a et ) e sands of life were wasting away, that he V.) 'gat ,nre"gious consolation unless he was satisfied to sqth h Theie w a g ' hich the State would give him.—(l-tear, 'o 4 )o t *unld end er a Point touched upon last night to (;°ltaistis 'refer th was the disloyalty of the priests ri I the N °t his he would answer that when the Presby th 'its r' °r th wer • ' re, al leash ° e excited Into rebellion, the Roman It 'te e , to et utt rallied round the throne. The %til l ' , N I to ! ) ,„ °d ,by the Government when Napoleon tat. hest ore ,asauatie this county • and when the mutiny li a rs , 00k nt _ y , uts t o M ee ace, the priests of that religion used ira t t heir "ee to ind • the deluded mutineers to di not a llegi ` IL° 4 4 'aft the a ntra—( Hear, hear.) But it was said fp oa t rsted rase now °i n th . Per sons —that the priests were _re , be a ll e io r ti er s f S a n is c h ar , — mere political agitators. Ve_h , t con. f the b ne g l ect Se could Basil y be explained by ths ‘aore d.4 which had been manifested, not only hit.___lik-;,attiolic religion, but to all who professed Roma to tkeert et , a rl re eei a fs, hear.) The treatment the eatteal'lttee'Tnt loyal v?as, in his opinion, calculatect_to t tn a rn yep itt 4fife nceT Y into the om biterest hate. All tha hd s _ to the Ran Catholias of Ireland wa he r ew e "a to turn the feelings and the affections of the th the y , ' fr cnn this eouritry. Whatever might hare i ° at nOctrines taught at - s . laynooth, it had not been Pa' s ' it a t he 9' wer e h4lll "Oavuepl e "an immoral nature; and, with .re ,iler„ " b ,„,of ela nd, Ir much as they had been villa igoki 'no t e , di f fi cu lt pi out a country where the l Ut e :b e i 'k es it,noral, or the marriage vow more sacredly i k lha t :hsi t i t i ltitsa ct i to be wondered at that the Irish people ' a e rs )tti li e tee:tir at thaendw disa ff ected, when their Lo a rds b h e i e p n s m to i o s k . t pr ott n u d et r ee i l aaYndinwhvvehieh.t th . e s ir k e n r o e w ed n h th had a code of 14 4 e Pp 0? .....1 a former time n , had wa been saddled upon that tviitz every principle of true Christiemity and RI - policy?—(Hear, hear.) To THE SUN, LONDON,_ WEDNESDA 1 _EVENING, JUNE 4, 1845. this was to be ascribed that state of feeling, and the condition of party, that at the present time, and for some time past, had characterised that unhappy country. But a better day had dawned; and a Government who would now attempt to govern Catholic Ireland upon such narrow and prejudiced grounds, however well qualified they might be for a Protestant community, were not equal to the task of legislating for a grea empire like this, and especially for such a country as Ireland, with its large Catholic population. With regard to the monster meetings that had been held in Ireland, the majesty of the law had been vindicated, a better state of feeling was induced, and the effect of a conciliatory policy was now being tried wader a Lord-L'eutenant, who had, as yet, shown a kind and impartial policy in his government of Ireland. The old party distinc tions could no longer he maintained ; and, unless they went in agreement with Irish interests and Irish sympathies in every way, directly and indirectly, endeavouring to act justly and im partially towards the people of that country, the peace and prosperity of Ireland could not be secured.—( Hear, hear.) The present measure was a great advance, and a debt of deep gratitude was due to the present Government for introducing it, and in so doing sacrificing friends, suffering misconstruction, and endangering their popularity. These were so many proofs of the respect which ought to be paid them for their courage and disin terestedness in submitting to Parliament such a measure of justice to the people of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Notwith standing the loss of supporters and the clamour that had been raised out of doors against their enlightened proceedings, they would have the reflection of having done a great act of justice under very trying circumstances to an oppressed people, and would command the approbation and esteem of all enlightened and liberal minds.—( Hear, hear.) The Earl of WINCHILSEA never rose with more con flicting feelings than at the present moment, especially when he found himself opposed, on public grounds, to those whom he regarded in fact as Ministers of the country, and alienated from those with whom he had hitherto lived in the firmest ties of friendship; and he trusted that when many of those friends looked back, in years to come, upon the vote of that night, and the two subsequent votes that would ratify the measure, they might not feel that remorse which many a statesman who voted for the fatal measure of 1829 experienced to his latest hour. —( Hear, hear.) How had the question hitherto been dis cussed—how had its greatest and ablest advocate treated it in the other House? By a mase of jesuitical casuistry and mystified sophistry (Cries of " Hear, hear") which, after reading and reperusing, only brought him to the conclusion that its propounder must have been edu cated in a seminary of Jesuits. He protested against it in the name of the Protestants of England, whose petitions against it crowded their table, and in the other House had amounted to more than 11.000, signed by 1,500,000 per sons. He protested, however, against it on even higher grounds—that, as a national endowment of the Church of Rome, it was in opposition to their God. The ultra-Mon taine doctrines taught in the class-books of the College of Maynooth were so monstrous that no man who upheld the tenets of the Anglican Church, could conscientiously support them—the supremacy of the Pope, the reservation of the oath inculcated by the principle of salvo jure superioris, the decla ration of the superiority of the ecclesiastical over the civil power—were doctrines so abhorrent to Protestantism and the principles of the realm, that no member of the latter church could possibly consent to their promulgation. It had been said that this grant of 30,0001. would render the education of Maynooth less exclusive and more liberal. But what security had they that such would be the case? He maintained that it would be a mental delusion if they passed this measure, and he called upon the Noble Lord behind (Lord Beaumont) and other Noble Lords to stand forward and save the general body of the Irish people from the principles taught in that seminary. Let them give to the Roman Catholics all they require excepting this support to a system of education which England conscientiously believed to be opposed to the true worship of God. It was, indeed, a most important and serious question, but let them do honestly and fairly what God, their consciences, and their country, required from them— ( Cheers)—and let them leave the issue in His hands who was able to save them. He would call upon their Lordships not to abandon their sacred duties, and he would say, with the Right Reverend Prelate who spoke last, that rather than see doctrines so opposed to Christianity recognised by the State, he should with him raise his voice, and use his utmost endea vours to sever the Protestant Church front the State; nor would he rest until that severance were effected. This mea sure could not pass, for the Protestantism of England was too strong to allow the Government to educate five hundred priests without the people making a powerful and successful stand against it. He prayed their Lordships to consider well ere they passed a measure which would arouse throughout the length and width of the country hostile feelings which might not again be easily allayed. The Marquis of NORMA NBYsaid that when their Lordships recollected the part which he had always taken on all questions connected with the state of Ireland, he trusted they would pardon his trespassing on their attention at that time. He was aware how difficult it would be to engage their Lordships' con sideration after the energetic and the eloquent speech of the Noble Earl who had just sat down—a speech distinguished, too, for the depth of the religious convictions which character ised it. But he (Lord Normanby) could not help remarking that from the Noble Lord opposite, who had just moved the amendment, down to the Noble Earl who had last spoken, no Noble Lord who had adopted that view of the question had once addressed himself to the real question opened by the Noble Duke—namely, that this was a legislative measure of justice to seven millions of Irish Catholics—to seven-eighths of the population of a great nation. When the Noble Earl made reference to the state of religious education in the colo nies, he was obligec to refer to his Noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies for the fact that we were obliged to maintain other churches than the Establishment of England. It was proved in those cases, as in the case of Ireland, that it was utterly impossible to force religion upon a large mass of people who were conscientiously opposed to it. With regard to what the Noble Earl had said of the ultra montaine doctrines alleged to be taught at Maynooth, a full answer had been given by the Noble Lord near him (Lord Beaumont). The Romish Church did not claim the authority to release from an oath —not even an oath of allegiance.— ( Hear, Lear.) The Church claimed the authority of releasing from a vow, to - :which the authorities of the Church were parties. An oath stood upon quite different grounds. The Rev. Mathias Croly, who had been a professor in May nooth, and was now a Protestant clergyman, having renounced what were called the errors of Popery, stated, before a Com mittee of the other House of Parliament, that he never was taught to believe, when a student of Maynooth, that he could violate the oath of allegiance or any other oath. There were many books read in Maynooth College which he could not defend. But it had been truly explained that these books were made class-books for the avowed purpose of controversial study.—( Hear, hear.) The conduct of the young men educated in that College proved that there was no immoral effect from the course of study taught there.—( Hear, hear.) The conduct of the people also showed that the religious instruction had not an immoral tendency..--( Hear, hear.) There were, according to the official returns, seventy crimes against property com mitted in England—taking the population into account—for thirty committed in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to temperance, it was not to be denied that the Irish were now in a position superior to that of all other people in the world (Hear, hear) and that was in itself a proof of the useful influence of the priests.—(Hear, hear. ) It had been said by a Noble Lord opposite that the bishops settled in their periodical conferences the amount of crime which was to be committed before their next meeting.— (Hear, hear.) That was so monstrous a misstatement, that he would not detain their Lordships by discussing it.—(Hear, hear.) He was ready to admit that there had been a great increase of crime within the last year. But there had been many causes to account for it, without arguing with the Noble Duke (the Duke of Newcastle), who attributed the increase to the conference of bishops, and the conduct of the priests. He could bear testimony to the constant and unwearied exertions of the Roman Catholic priests to restrain violence, to check immorality. and to inculcate order.—( Hear, hear.) He had heard with regret the speech of the Right Rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Cashel) last night, which he was sorry to say exhi bited by no means a feeling of sympathy or charity towards millions of his fellow Christians, amongst whom his ministry was ordained.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate stated that there might be some appointment made to the professor ships in Maynooth which would be objected to by the clergy. Suppose it were ? Objections were always made against the elevation of an individual. He had an instance in his own ex perience of objections being made to an appointment of a clergyman in every respect qualified—the late Dr. Sands, whom he had recommended to a bishopric.—(Hear, hear.) He would contrast the charge of that excellent man is the clergy of his diocese with the last charge of the Right Rev. Prelate opposite. The Bishop of CASHEL said, that his charge had been written, printed, and published, and the Noble Marquis was at liberty to make of it what use he pleased.—( Hear, hear. ) The Marquis of NORMANBY held the printed report of the charge in his hand, and he read from it extracts in which the Right Rev. Prelate denounced the doctrines of Popery as " delusive and-soul-damning," and urged his clergy to re strain as much as possible their " flocks" from employing as servants, sr retaining as tenants, persons tainted with the im moral and pernicious creed. The Right Rev. Prelate was re presented also to have inculcated the doctrine of " exclusive dealing " in the same address.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis was continuing to read the document when he was inserrupted by The Bishop of CASHEL, who rose and said—l say that that is, from beginning to end, an abominable falsehood and calumny—( Loud cheers)—and I say further, that it is most discreditable of the Noble Marquis, who must from his position as Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland have been well acquainted with the character of the Irish people, to have had that charge in his pocket for the last two years, and never have spoken of it till now—(Renewed cheers)—and I would recom mend the Noble Marquis to be more cautious, and to read with more attention any stories he may receive from Ireland, which he may be inclined to bring forward the next time he is in want of a speech. (Cheers, and cries of " Order,") Marquis of NORMANBY—I believe I have shown the Right Reverend Prelate every courtesy? Bishop of CASHEL—No, Sir, you have not.—(Loud cries cf " Order, order.") The Marquis of NORMANBY said he only received the letter he had been reading yesterday ; and he would now pro ceed to read it, as the letter of a person who had been present when the Right Reverend Prelate was delivering his charge, and as conveying the impression that charge made upon him at the time. The writer rsas a Protestant clergyman. Lord CHARLE VILLE rose to order. He did think that after the Right Rev. Prelate had given a distinct denial to the statement of the let er, as read by the Noble Marquis, it would not be fair or just in him to proceed. The Marquis of NORMANBY—The Noble Lord was wrong. The Right Rev. Prelate had not denied the truth of the statement. He did not say that there was nothing con tained in the letter similar to the contents of the charge. The Bishop of CASHEL said he would send the Noble Marquis a copy of the chat ge. The Marquis of NORMANBY—If the Right Rev. Prelate said there was not one word of truth in the letter, why then, of course he (Lord Normanby) would be silent. The Bishop of CASHEL said that the printed charge was a verbatim copy of the charge he delivered. The Marquis of NORMANBY would now proceed to read tke letter, in order to show the impression made upon the writer by the charge at which he was present. The Earl of WINCHILSEA rose to order. He did not think the Ilouse should listen to the opinions of individuals in this way ; if they did, he would ask, where was it all to end ? —( Hear, hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate had stated that the letter contained what was false, therefore it should not be read.—(Cheers, and cries of " Order.") The Marquis of LANSDOW NE and the Earl o! WICKLOW both rose to order, but the latter gave way to the former, who contended that his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Normanby) was perfectly in order in reading the contents of a letter, stating the impression made upon the mind of the writer by the charge.—( Hear, hear. ) The Earl of WINCHILSEA did not think it fair or just to any man that such a course should be pursued. The Marquis of NORMANBY said the Noble Earl was not in order, and he would now proceed to read the letter of the Protestant clergyman, whose name he would give, who was present at the charge, and who, at that time, received the censure of the Right Rev. Prelate for visiting a national school.—( Cheering, ) The Earl of WICKLOW said the Noble Marquis was not bat of order, but he would put it to him whether it would not be exercising a sound discretion not to pursue this course fur ther. —( Hear, hear.) The Marquis of NORMAN BY said he would now read that portion of the letter which referred to the personal encounter between the writer and the Right Reverend Prolate. The I Noble Marquis then proceeded to read the passage, which was in substance that the" writer declared he could never forget the painful feelings he suffered, when, after a residence of a quarter of a century in that parish (Clashmore) he heard himself thus ()ensured by his bishop for having visited a national school, and on being told that no Protestant clergyman should do so, even if it were only for the purpose of seeing the rules. The writer then went on to say he found he had for ever lost all chance of preferment, &c.—(Laughter and cheers.) He (the Marquis of Normanby) heard the Noble Lord opposite cheer; but he would ask him was that the treatment a clergyman of thirty Sears' residence in a parish ought to receive at the hands of his bishop, because he had gone to see the rules in force at a school established by the Government of his country ?—(Loud cheers.) The writer went on further to say that the Right Reverend Prelate added that he would rather see no school at all in the country than the Na tional Schools. —( Continued cheers.) That was the letter, and the writer of it was the Rev. Mr. Maccassy, rector of Clashmore.—( Hear, hear.) He would not follow up this subject, by repeating the expressions used by the Right Rev. Prelate, which were too coarse for repetition in that House, and which the Right Rev. Prelate should never have used.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis then read a pas sage from a letter from a Protestant clergyman in Larne, where there were 12,000 inhabitants, and where the writer said there was no feeling whatever amongst his Protestant parishioners against the grant.—( Hear, hear.) He (the Marquis of Normanby) regretted that this measure had not been granted whenithe repeal agitation was completely dead in Ireland ; but even now he hOped to see it carried by a large majority of their Lordships' House.—(Cheers. ) The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he made no allusion to agitation or to any meetings held in Dublin. These meet ings were got up for the purpose of compelling the Legislature and Government of the country to adopt the measure of the repeal of the Union, setting aside altogether the decision of their Lordships' House on the Bill of exceptions. That was his notion. Ile said that the Government was strong and the repeal cause was weak. He did - not say a word on agitation, because no one could say what the course of agitation would be from one day to the next. Ile said the repeal cause too—not the Roman Catholic cause—( A laugh)—that the repeal cause was weak. He took care to say, that as their Lordships were strong they should not persecute those who were weak. The Bishop of CASHEL, in explanation of the:remarks made by the Marquis of Normanby, said that he would show to the Noble Lord the letter referred to. It was always painful to him to receive a number of applications for vacar.t livings, and no man would ever have a better chance for speaking in a commendatory manner of himself than in such an application. The Archbishop of DUBLIN said that he should trouble their ' Lordships as briefly as possible. From the language used throughout the country it would appear that all those who were favourable to the grant were set down as indifferent to the principles of the Protestant faith, and dangerous latitudina rians. lie would say, in reference to the course of instruction, that he had occasion more than once to examine persons who had beer. students in Maynooth, and who sought employment in the Protestant Church, having left their own. Also young men who were expecting situations as tutors after they left Maynooth ; and he was cisposed to think that the course of instruction there must be of a very inferior description. He also believed, from conversing with many Roman Catholics, that the college was not well regulated as to the course of in formation taught in it. He did not find fault with the college because it taught men to be Roman Catholics, for that was to be expected.—( Laughter.) With regard to literature, his tory, and science, he thought it was susceptible of great im provement. By making it a perpetual endowment they were giving an important check to its being again brought forward as a battle ground of party. It. appeared that the system of education adopted there was a shabby one, and he could not help coming to the conclusion, that it was, to a certain extent, traceable to the niggardly manner in which the eollege had been supported. He must say, on behalf of himself and hi s own clergy, that they were not to be considered as indifferent to the Protestant faith because of their refusing to join the out cry against the increased grant. He had the highest respect for many of his Roman Catholic brethren—( Hear hear)—bat he was not more opposed to them than he was to many of those Protestants who believed that the State should impose a religion upon its subjects. If the civil Government was to decide what the religion of its subjects should be, the State should make no difference between great and small errors, but should exclude all sects that disagreed from the system it adopted. He called upon those who held that doctrine to follow out their principles and denounce all endowments unless those for the Established Church. To be consistent they should do so. He did not however understand how the grant of 26,0001. could go against a man's conscience and 9,0001. meet with his approval or acquiescence. If all that had been said respecting Maynooth were true, he thought the Government should not tolerate the existence of the Col lege at all, nor the priests themselves, who were imbued with the pernicious doctrines which it was said to inculcate. They called upon them, the Bishops, on pain of break ing their solemn vows, to denounce that grant. There were different ways of driving out errors and fulfilling their vows. Was it by secular violence and by the sword? Sooner than do so he would re sign his station and endeavour to earn his bread by the most menial employment. —( Hear, hear.) He would not resort to violence. He would endeavour to drive out those who were in their own Church who taught false and dangerous doctrines. He had no power over Roman Catholics, but be had over those of his own communion, and if he found amens" them any who held the doctrines of one Church, and received the emoluments of another, those he would drive out.—(" Hear, hear," and cheers.) By so doing he considered he would best acquit himself of the obligation of his vows. There was a great dif ference also between giving and granting an endowment. The money was not theirs. It belonged to the nation ; and as long as there were six millions of persons, whom they might tell in vain were not a partof the nation—( A laugh)—it was ridiculous to act in the same manner as if the money had come from the packets of private individuals. It was a claim on the nation, and as the Roman Catholics contributed to its funds it was wrong to deny them such a paltry endowment. He must also protest against the outcry made against the word expediency.—( Hear, hear.) He professed himself a votary of expediency.—( A laugh.) He should like to know what any one had to do in that House who was net a man of expediency.—(Laughter. ) They had all met there for the public expediency. There was even a formula of public prayer that was said every evening for the safety, and honour, and prudence of their Lordship's deliberations, and if that was not consulting for public expe diency, he should like to know what expediency was.—(Cheers.) Some Noble Lords were inclined to think despondingly of the measure, because it had been so much decried by the agita tors in Ireland. Why, he thought that, so far from that being any argument against the Bill, it was rather an argument in favour of it ; for any measure which tended to pacify and restore tranquillity was sure to be censured by those whose trade was agitation. An opinion prevailed that the Roman Catholic population of Ireland was united as one man; but the fact was that, so long as there was a handful of people to agitate in that country, so long would there be agitators. The agitators, however few in number, always called themselves the people. —( Laughter.) This reminded him of a saying of Mr. Burke's, who, speaking of a handful of politicians that spoke of them selves as the people of England, said they resembled grasshop pers in a meadow, which occupying a snug bank, made all the noise, and seemed the sole occupants of the meadow, whilst the oxen, the real occupants, ruminated quietly in the shades. He would not take it upon himself to say which was the proper mode of governing Ireland—a difficult problem to solve, as a Right Reverend Prelate ( Daly) had observed on the previous evening ; but this he would say, that they should not consider the turbulenee of a few agitators as the voice of the nation, for those who raised the loudest clamour in Ireland against the Bill were those who considered every measure bad which had for its object peace and conciliation —the designs of such men being to disunite and raise a hostile feeling between England and Ireland by a perpetual agitation.—(Loud cheers.) Lord DE ROOS rose amid loud cries for the Bishop of Exeter. He defended the conduct of the professors of May nooth from the aspersions which had been cast upon them and the students gerei•ally, and concluded by saying that he thought the present measure one of the most healing, tranquillising, and conciliatory which could be devised for the advantage of Ireland. The Bishop of EXETER then rose and said, that he readily yielded to the call which had been made upon him, and thought the real question at issue had been much departed from in the course of the present discussion. The origin of Maynooth College seemed to have been forgotten, and it would appear as if it had been founded and supported wholly by the State. He held in his hand a paper, from which it appeared, that the college was first established upon sufferance upon the memorial of certain Roman Catholic prelates, Dr. Troy among the number, who presented the memorial to Lord Westmore land, the then Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. The memorial prayed for his Majesty's licence to establish a college wherein youth might be educated for the Roman Catholic church. But it must appear that this licence was in the first instance, to enable Roman Catholics to endow the College. The Act of Parliament empowered them to receive donations, but the whole amount of donations re ceived by Maynooth College from the Roman Catholics, up to 1814, was 5,0001., and not a penny since then. There was a charge of miserable parsimony made against the Parliament towards the Roman Catholic college of Maynooth, which he considered wholly unfounded. The only miserable parsimony which he could detect was in the Roman Catholic squire archy of Ireland, and it was for those the Noble Earl who spoke last night (the Earl of St. Germans) had reason to blush for the state of ruin and degradation to which May noeth had been brought. The words of the Act of Parlia ment proved that Maynooth was not regarded originally as a corporation—it was an institution supported originally by mere chance endowments; and Parliament did not, he re peated, originally recognise it in the light of an institu tion which had any claims upon the State.—(Hear hear. ) They were told that a visit oriel power was to be exercised, but what would be the value of visiting, when they had no right to interfere with the doctrines which were taught at Maynooth ? Visitors in such a case would be of no value what ever.—( Hear.) Again it was said that the reason why the lust'. tution was net properly supported was the poverty of the people. This could not be the case. There was no want of wealth among the Roman Catholics of that country, especially among those of the higher classes. Wealth was increasing in Ireland, and he was glad of it, hut it ought to be borne in mind that for the last twelve years the wealthy Roman Catholics of that country had contributed from six to seven thousand pounds to an insti tution for the propagation of the Roman Catholic faith in Lyons. If they were satisfied with the character of Maynooth, it was not necessary for them to go there with their money— they would not have allowed the state of things, the want of de cency, and the absence of proper arrangements for the educa tion of the students to have existed. He wanted to know what good the Bill promised to realise? The great want of Ireland at the present time was men to teach them the duty they owed to their God arid their country—to remind them that their first duty was to pay respect to the laws, to live at peace with all men, and not only to cultivate peace themselves but to set the example of peaceable conduct to others.—( Hear, hear.) Reference had been made to the circumstances of Ireland, and their Lordships had been told that there was some excuse for the part the priesthood had taken in the political 1 roceedings of that country.—( Hear.) He was willing to make some allowance for those parties; but the re bellious and tumultuous proceedings which they countenanced and defended were such as, by God's blessing, he should never assist in communicating to the Christian character, least of all to a Christian minister.—( Hear, hear.) The evil was, that the character of the priesthood was taken from the character of the people, and the real origin of it was in the exclusive sys tem of education pursued at Maynooth College. He did not see how it was possible to educate 500 young men in a proper manner by shutting them up in a monastic institution, making them perfect serfs during the seven years of their education, without connexion with the people, or association with the superior classes of society. They led the lives of recluses, destitute of all those associations and advantages that tended to develop the manly character. They were not allowed during their servitude, at any time, the privilege of walking in the avenues adjoining the institution—to pass for a single moment out of sight of their superintendents. And when their slavery was at an end they passed at once from a state of complete servility to a state of absolute despotism. From slaves they at once were transformed into despots—( Hear, hear)—,and went forth among the people as the representatives of God—vices genere Deum. In this country the education of the Catholic clergy took place with the young members of the nobility and gentry. This was not the case at Maynooth, and hence the great difference in the cha racter of the Catholic clergymen of England compared with those of Ireland. There was no other institution in Ireland more productive of evil than Maynooth, and for that reason he should vote against the motion before their Lordships for the second reading of the Bill. He was sure the wealthy Roman Catholics of Ireland must be as desirous of sending their sons. to be educated along with those intended for the University as were the rich Roman Catholics of England; and the reason why they had not done so was, according to his judgment, because the system of education at Maynooth was so degrading. The next question was, who should nominate the students to be educated there ? According to the proposed measure, the patronage was to be vested in the hands of the Roman Catholie Bishops. They were to have the appointment of no less than 500 young men. Would not this be putting a powerful engine into the hands of the clergy?—a power which, he contended, should alone be vested in the hands of the Crown. If this would be considered giving undue power to the C:own, another course might be taken ; the Crown might ap point four times the number to be admitted, and they should afterwards be examined publicly by the Roman Catholic Bishops in Dublin. Great benefit might be realised if some thing of that kind were adopted ; hut there should be no such monastic institution as that of Ma%nooth. In his opinion the amount of the money was scarcely worth a moment's con sideration if the system pursued were satisfactory. For his part, instead of one college he would have three or four col leges, somewhat analogous to those proposed in the other House of Parliament for the education of the Roman Catholic priesthood. But he would have it a liberal educa t. on, in connexion with the young men belonging to the nobility and gentry, and altogether different from the monastic and exclusive system pursued at Maynooth. A Right Rev. Prelate had been reflected on the previous evening, because he could net name a remedy for the evils that affected Ireland. Such a proceeding was unfair and unconstitutional. The Rev. I'relate was not responsible for governing the country. That duty rested with the Government. The Ministry had voluntarily undertaken the duty of governing the country, and it was no part of the duty of Parliament to take the business of the Executive into its hands.—( Hear, hear. ) It was for the Government to bring forward their measures, and then for their Lordships to judge of their value and efficacy. He thought too much of the wisdom of the Government to consider the present measure the best that could be introduced by them. The Noble Duke (the Duke of Manchester) had, in the debate of last evening, referred to the conferences of the Catholic priesthood, arid there were proofs amply sufficient to show that the statements made by the N o bl e Duke were well founded. The common law inflicted the punishment of death by burning those who were guilty of the crime of heresy. He need only quote the opinions of Dens, for the truth of this assertion.—( Hear.) If their Lordships would examine closely into the nature of the studies taught at May nooth, they would find that they were not opposed to these conferences, and at all events, they were such as ought to make their Lordships shrink from the pestilential stream they were assisting by this grant to disseminate over Ireland. The Right Rev. Prelate then preceded to read from Maldonatus, the favourite commentator of Maynnoth, in order to prove the pernicious character of the doctrines taught there. A very respectable clergyman who had been educated at Maynooth had authorized him (the Bishop of Exeter) to say that if their Lordships granted the Committee sought for by the Noble Earl, he should be ready to appear before them, and to detail the results of his experience there. In an examination before that House, it was proved that Dr. M'elale, who was the very impersonation of Maynooth, having been educated there, having been a professor there, and not leaving it till he was made Bishop. It was notoriously a fact, that on his visit to Achill, he had cursed priests who had left their Church and joined themselves to the Protestant faith. But this was only the common spirit that actuated them throughout Europe, and he would instance the protestation addressed by the Roman Catholic Priests of Belgium, in 1815, to the King, when he wished to confer civil liberties on all his subjects, without distinction of sect. This showed at least the spirit by which they were actuated. and the same spirit was inculcated by the Catholic teachers of Maynooth. Baron Richards, at the Castlebar assizes, in the year 1838, had avowed the bigotry of the Roman Catholic priests, their sinister influence on the people, and the effects of the perni cious teaching at Maynooth, to which a great proportion of the crime of Ireland was to be traced. But the character of those doctrines need not be discovered by a reference to an authority so unprejudiced, yet unconnected; Dr. M‘Hale, in an essay on the subject of dispensation, had set the tenets there held be yond all dispute. The deposing power, as acted upon by Pope Pius XVII., in 1801, in trying to establish the succession of Louis XVIII., and acknowledged by the Irish bishops in 1&19, was equally and as incontestible the doctrine still upheld. The class-book de penitentia instructed nothing less than perjury in its most abhorrent and revolting form, and the question, there fore was, were the Government ready to endow, with the funds of the State, and identify with the Constitution a college that propounded and instructed a system of unqualified perjury? He, for one, trusted that the House, when put in possession of such incontrovertible facts, would exclaim " Not-Content " to the provisions of such a measure. Lord BROUGHAM could not understand the discrepancy between the line of arguments adopted by the Right Rev. Pre late and the opponents of the Bill, either on the Ministerial or the cross benches. The two Noble Dukes who had so ve hemently protested against the measure, exclaimed in horror, " Idolatry, superstition, abominable doctrines, everything that the Minister ought most to discountenance, were to be en dowed." Such were their arguments, and to say the least of them, they were intelligible—they were logical, and calculated to carry conviction. But the Right Rev. Prelate contended in a far different strain—" I object to a system that would endow one institution where the false ultra-montaine doctrines were propounded; but withdraw those tenets, purge the reli gion of such abhorrent views, and I will vote for the endowment of four colleges for the teaching of the Roman Catholic faith ! What, four colleges, for one of which the Noble Duke had ob jected so strenuously. The Right Rev. Prelate had said also that the State did, in 1794 and 1795, not endow the college, but gave the Catholic faith a power of voluntary establishing an institution which, though not endowed, was endowable by the State. But the fact was that, in 1795, the Act of Geo. 111. was passed, and in all hut the word co-operation, every trust, even powers for grants of money, and lease of property was accorded the Institution.—( Hear, hear. ) And as to merely holding of the trusts, it would not be suffi cient to make them a corporation, if new powers were not given to them in their capacity of visitors.—The grand omission in the Act was that there was no mention of a corporation—that was all. The words of the preamble of the Bill, that " Whereas there was a college far the education of Roman Catholics, and the funds were insufficient, it was desirable to support and endow that college," &c. There were three Acts passed in the reign of George 111. —a Prince above all others distin guished for his attachment to the Protestant releion—a Prince who was most religiously opposed to the anti-Protestant doc trines of the Remanists. Under whose auspices was the last Act (the 48th of the King) passed ?—( Hear, hear.) It was under the auspices of Mr. Percival who succeeded upon Pro testant principles—( Ilea , hear)—the Government of Lord Grey.—( Hear, hear.) It um under his auspices that the grant was continued, and that in the new Act the word " en dowed" was introduced.--( Hear, hear.) He knew as well as the Noble Earl opposite that the grant was from year to year. But surely the fact that the grant had been given, year after year, and in every year for fifty years, was of greater impor tance in support of the grant than if it had been given at once and for ever.—( Hear, hear.) It showed a greater determina tion on the part of the Legislature to continue the grant, under the very name used in each successive Act, than if it had been made at once a fixed and permanent endowment. —( Hear, hear.) He placed little value upon the animosities exhibited at public meetings. He believed that those annual displays of fanaticism would be happily put an end to by the Bill before the House.—( Hear, hear.) It was no argument against this measure that it would go to promulgate the ob noxious doctrines taught at Maynooth ; for it was denied by no opponent of this Bill that lefaynooth, with all its doctrines, must still be supported..—( Hear, hear.) Was it not better— as it had well been said by the Noble Duke op posite—that if the Roman Catholics of Ireland must be educated by priests, those priests themselves ought to be educated as gentlemen.—( Hear, hear.) He would read an extract from an English traveller, who said that on his visit to Maynooth he found the condition of the pupils one of great deprivation. The union workhouses were palaces com pared to the College.--( Hear, hear.) Nothing could exceed the povery and squalidity of the establishment. (The Noble and Learned Lord read the extract at great length, depicting the extreme poverty of the pupils, and the filthy state of their accommodation.) It was absurd to say that doctrines were taught in the College which rendered the controlling power of the Crown nugatory.—(Hear, hear.) For in the Chan cellorship of Lord Plunkett, th a t L or d Ch ance ll o r did, as visitor, institute inquiries into the conduct of the pupils; and they, when examined upon oath, gave evidence which proved that they had no indoctrination opposed to the obligation of an oath, and the result of the inquiry was, that the abuses complained of, and proved, were removed.—( Hear.) He did not wish to give any pain to Members of that House professing the Roman Catholic faith, nor to persons professing that faith out of th e House; but he must declare that no opponent of the Bill was more opposed than he was to the doctrines of the Church of by not like k e h t e h a e d b o w o i k t s h w a h triple e r c e r o r w e a n d . Rome, or more opposed t o th e power of an hierarchy governed -(Hl a ynooth College. He ear, hear.) He did ‘ did not say that books were not to be read because he, or their Lordships, did not like them.—(A laugh.) He then went through a catalogue of books of various doctors, amongst whom he mentioned Thomas Aquinas, whose doctrines he did not approve, but whose works, be thought, might well be no doubthey Cont ai n that ti the booksthse o read with advantage. He differed from the Noble Lor d oppo site in his views • for it was quite a mist ake to su pp ose he c o u l d mentionedbe were th ' e i s n e views . existence, There bad doctrines that had been mentioned. But o beside the question now before their Lordships,.athi n s d an d if it were was totally not so, he would be ready to vote for the es()mmittee • He had heard a great deal about Maldonatus and heresy, and all that; but some of those arguments went to prove that these bad doctrines were taught in Maynooth. No doubt and was th a tt the dogmas taught in Maynooth were the Ro manist dogmas ; but what other could be taught there? Surely they were not to invent new books—if so, then, they were to have their own books ; but even so, the fact would be found that all those bad and dreadful doctrines would shrink into a page or two.—( Hear, hear.) And now let him remind their Lordships that the Church of Rome was not the only church that had fallen into error. He much feared that melancholy indeed was the condition of the ecclesiastical dis cipline of another church. He was not now alluding to the spiritual or ecclesiastical power of that church. That church to which he alluded had exercised a great secular power, not withstanding all that had been said about the Pope, and the Councils, and the priests, though he should certainly say that the former had never carried it so far as the latter.— ( Hear, hear.) In modern times that church had been as much distinguished for its tolerance as its piety, and this he had said of it fifteen years ago ; but he should peremptorily deny, that it was always as tolerant as it was now ; and if he took the trouble he could find writers amongst the old fathers, who furnished as strong illustrations against the intolerance of that Church, as any that had been adduced against the Romish Church. These things were not confined to the Episcopalian Church. The Dissenters and Wesleyan Me thelists were the loudest and most incessant in their outcry against it. Well might the bench of bishopiesay, that these religionists had no right to look for an extension of civil and religious liberty for themselves, since they had been so violent in their opposition when con cessions were made to Roman Catholics. They were the last, too, who should charge other religionists with holdng persecuting doctrines, for, if he selected a writer who of all others la:d down the doctrine of extirpation with more ela borateness—who even went so far as to say that the body of the heretic should even be bur nt—wh o taught not merely the right o the body t o save t h e sou l—h e s h ou ld n Calvin.--(Loud cheers.) Among butsay thatthe duty that o man f destroying was J the various devices which that man resorted to for the purpose of carrying into effect his diabolical doctrines was the practice of letter-opening.—(Loud laughter.) The Noble Lord pro ceeded to state an instance of this man's cruelty in the case of a Spanish physican. He got him to come to Geneva, where, in consequence of his religious opinions, he was denounced, condemned, and burnt to death forty-eight hours after, without even the common forms of justice, and in mockery of every feeling that actuates humanity. The Noble Lord then went on to adduce another instance of the most intolerant persecution on the part of the Presbyterians and Calvinists, from an American author, Mr. Gerard Spottis woode, who described the sufferings of an individual whose only crime was worshipping in the Common Prayer Book of the Church of England. He would now leave this part of the subject, and he would ask who would think the worse of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Hackney, or any other college where Dissenters were taught ? — who would ever think the wor se of them because there might be found among their dus t y shelves a copy of the works of t he persecutor and murderer of Geneva—the. author of the most elaborate treatise on persecution that the world has ever seen—without any attempt even to efface the page, palliate its cruelties, or apply rn antidote to the poison which it administered. Who, he would ask, would think of involving all the students and pro fessors of those colleges, and the system of instruction taught there, in the doctrines which were promulgated by Calvin? It would be senseless and utterly monstrous to do so. Thomas Aquinas never could be compared, for a moment, to that vio lent and restless exterminator. Let him say one word of King William, who ought to be revered in this country and Ireland, not merely because he founded civil liberty, but because he saves them from Popery. His name might be made a watch word by fanatics, but it was not in that sense he used it, and he heartily agreed with the Somersets and the Godolphins of his day, that had their Lordships then lived they would have passed the penal code. Last of all, he was told that Sou cannot con scientiously give money for the propagation of error. In the first place, the money would be given, whether or no. Secondly, the money partly belonged to Catholics. Thirdly, Maynocth was only one of a number of establishments recognised and en dowed by the State. In Canada the Roman Catholi Church was established by this country. The Righ Reverend Prelate was wrong in stating that there was any provision in the treaty of Paris for endowing the Roman Catholic faith—nothing was guaranteed in that treaty but toleration. Constant grants were made by the Legislature for the sustainment of the Catholic establish ments in the colonies, and at Malta even the regular clergy were paid by the State. In Malta the Roman Catholic Church was of the most rigorous and exclusive character, and yet it was supported by the Government, while no cry, voice, or whisper, had been raised against it. Before sitting down he would say a word respecting the mode in which the grant had been met. His Right Hon. Friend in the other House, .at the head of her Majesty's Government, had been reflected on for the course he had pursued on the present measure. It was said that one reason of introducing the measure was the great alarm expressed respecting the relations of this country with America. Another reason given was, that without some step of this kind agitation could not be put down. He (Lord Brougham) denied, as broadly and distinctly as his wards would enable him to do, that any such appre hension had influenced his Right Hon. Friend in bringing forward that measure. His Right Hon. Friend might have referred to the relation of this country with foreign countries, and the difficulties connected with those relations, but he (Lord Brougham) denied that any such plea had been advanced as a reason for introducing the present measure, and for this reason, that it was a pure anachronism. For it would be re collected that last year, before any difference with America was dreamt of, his Right Hon. Friend, in answer to Mr. Wyse, distinctly announced his plan with regard to Maynooth, and also his views with respect to academical educatidn. The al leging that the measure was introduced to still agitation, was equally unfounded. He had been represented to say that agi tation could not be put down by force, and he (Lord Brougham) said so too, for he held that it was impossible to put down agi tation by such means, until it broke out into violence or insur rection. But agitation in Ireland had verged upon that ex treme, and his Right Honourable Friend had used force, when force became necessary, and that force had been triumphantly successful.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Agitation at all times was an evil, especially in thickly popu lated countries, and if the measure now introduced was calcu lated to quiet and improve that country, in this respect it was entitled to their support. He was told that the Right Rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter) had made out a case against the grant to Maynnoth, and Bishop Higgins had been cited to that effect. That Right Rev. Prelate had said, a few years ago, in a manifesto respecting the repeal movement, that he owed nothing to the aristocracy of Parliament but contempt, a few years before, on the occasion of the repeal of the Penal Code. How such a change had taken place in so short a period, he could not conceive, or how unbounded respect could be con verted into unqualified scorn; however, his scorn and his re spect he valued in the same degree. That Right Reverend agitator had said—" Why shoukl Ireland be thankful for 17,0001. a year, it was but three farthings a week !" Such argumentation he (Lord Brougham) had never be fore heard.—( Hear, hear.) Why, if 300,000/. a year had been accorded upon such a principle, the grant might be said to be only fiv ?pence a head, or less than a half farthing a week.—(Laughter.) But Dr. Higgins no more represented the population of Ireland than Mr. Wilkes and Mr. Alderman Sawbridge when issuing their mandates from the London Tavern, and commencing " We, the people of Eng land," embodied or represented the population of this country. —(Laughter.) He felt gratified, however, that the Govern ment, conscious of its own integrity, and regardless of the cla mour of party, had fearlessly maintained its course, believing, as he did, that the popularity which followed a. brave aet was much more honourable than that sought after by spurious pre tensions, and that if they persisted in those brave acts they would deserve, as they would obtain, that enduring and invalu able applause.—(Cheers.) Lord CL A NCARTY, amidst great confusion, and conflict ing cries of " Adjourn," "Go on," " Question, question," moved the adjournment of the debate. The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S was anxious though at that late hour to address—(here the Rev. Prelate was interrupted with reiterated cries of " Adjourn, adjourn," " Question, question," in the midst of which— Lord CLANCARTY protested against the irregular course adopted by the Right Rev. Prelate. The question of adjourn ment had been raised, and he for one would persist in it. The Bishop of St. DAVID'S—I wish to give your Lordships, in as succinct and short an explanation as possible, the reasons for my vote on the present occason. Lord CLANCARTY (rising amid great sensation, and loud cries of " Order, order,")—l, my Lords, ha ve move d th e ad journment of this debate, because I consider it my duty to address a few words before the discussion terminates. Six addresses have been presented this night in favour of the Bill, while only two Members have spoken in favour of the amend ment of the Noble Earl near me (Lord Roden), and I have been anxiously waiting an opportunity to state my views upon it. Hitherto I have been unable to address your Lordships, and therefore it was that I secured for myself the tacit right of commencing the discussion to-morrow, by moving the adjourn ment of the debate.—( Loud cries of " de on.") The Duke of WELLINGTON—My Lords, I think it will be more consistent with the convenience of this House that the debate be adjourned till to-morrow. The greatest confusion here arose, Members not understand ing whether the Noble Duke intended this day, Wednesday (it being now one o'clock), or Thursday. Cries of " To day," " To-morrow," " Thursday," proceeded from all parts of the House, in the midst of which The LORD CHANCELLOR contrived to make himself heard, announcing that the House stood adjourned to Five o'clock this day ( Wednesday). Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Juue 3. SIR HENRY POTTINGER. Mr. HUME (in continuation from our Third Edition) said—He had known Sir Henry Pottinger for many years, both in his private and public capacity, and he could at.sure the House that his conduct would bear the fullest investi gation. While he was anxious to protect the public purse from any improper expenditure, he would say that withholding fr om officers in her Majesty's service that remuneration to which they were justly entitled did great injury to the service. The Hen. Gentleman then referred to Parliamentary returns, and to other documents, to show that pensions had been granted to those who had filled diplomatic offices. Sir Henry Pottinger was sent to China, not as an ambassador, for this country was not at that tirneon friendly terms with the celestial empire, but to negotiate for the restoration of peace, and he p er f orme d the important duties which devolved upon him more success fully than others whe had been sent out with a similar object in view. No one had been able to accomplish so much, and those services were both ' recognised by the country and the G overnment . The Gallant Officer's business was to effect a treaty with the Chinese authorities, and he was enabled t o f u lfil his mission almost to the direct letter of the l aw . Everything pointed out to him was accomplished by the influence he gained over the Government of China. It was the opinion of those who were in China at the time that no other individual could have obtained the confidence of the Chinese authorities as Sir Henry Pottinger did. Was it no thing to think that he was the first man who had ever been able to complete a commercial treaty with China? Surely then he was entitled to hope he had made out a sufficient case for calling upon the House to support his motion. There were many men distinguished, but because he was a man of certain opinions they refused him honours and votes, or even a pecu niary reward. They had already drawn a line of distinction between civil and military officers—should they not now break through that rule and grant a reward which was deserved ? He thought he had made out a fair claim to the H ouse , an d h e begged to conclude by submitting the motion which he had already read. Lord SANDON seconded the motion, and said he would shortly describe what there was in the services of the gentle man, whose conduct had been under disc uss i on i n t h at House, to warrant Parliament in conferring e x t raor di nary rewards upon him. He would briefly allude to the manifold meritorious services of the Gallant Gentleman, which he had rendered under peculiar circumstances, and at great pecuniary sacrifices and loss of rtealth. He had finished a war in China, under circumstances of great pain to himself, and u n d er stipulations of so important a nature as would drown the recollection of the cause of its commencement in acclamations to him who bad effected so glorious a termination. He had preserved the honour and character of his country in a manner that no other man was capable of performing. He could not think that such services should be met with only a trifling pecuniary re compence.—( Hear.) For services neither precisely civil nor military, which opened to the world a free traffic with the most industrious people in the world, it was not sufficient to award a yearly comparatively trifling sum.—( Hear, hear. ) With regard to services of another nature he would not rely simply on a priori circumstances, he would look to the opinion of the whole mercantile world as to the growing intercourse arising from the treaty with China, effected by the Gallant Gentleman. He would also look to the great moral results arising from these negotiations, which, no doubt, would lead to the cultivation of Christianity among the Chinese people. He could not think that the Government, under these circumstances, would refuse to give him an ample recompence for the dangers he had undergone, and the difficul ties he had overcome, and the pecuniary sacrifices he had made in the public service, in effecting so much good. And he would call upon Hon. Gentlemen connected with the Crown, to come forward more freely in reward of services so ines timable. The question was then put from the chair. Sir J. HOBHOUSE did not anticipate .any objection to the measure. He considered that the present was a special case, and it would be almost impossible for any individual to render in a similar manner such highly meritorious and useful services as had been rendered by Sir Henry Pottinger— (Hear)—and it was unlikely that any future occasion would arrive for which the reward for services, now about to be awarded, would con stitute a precedent. On the return of Sir Henry Pottinger, in ill health, to the seat of war in the East, he had made two stipulations only with the Administration—one was, that he should not have any colleague to act with him in his high capa city, so that the responsibility might be left to himself ; and the other was, that the directions given him by the Government should be private, and no stipulation whatever was made for the reward of the services he should render. Sir H. Pottinger was willing to leave the reward for those services entirely in the hands of the Government. Lord Aberdeen, at a public meeting, in describing the merits of the Gallant Officer, had said, so great was the confidence of the Government in him, that he had been left in China to act almost entirely on his own discretion. There was no hyperbole in saying that the distinguished services and high honours of Sir Henry Pottinger precluded him from accepting a subordinate presidency as a commensurate reward. He was entitled to far higher re wards. He would say that the present income of the Gallant Officer was so ill-proportioned to his high station, that he could not live in England in I manner b ecomin g his condition, and was precluded from entering that society to which he would be so great an ornament.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon Baronet then read a list of the di ff erent towns in the United Kingdom and in the colonies, which had presented votes of thanks to Sir H. Pottinger, for his services in China In nine hours the names of 14,000 working men, in Man chester, were affixed to an address expressive of their admiration of the great good he had conferred on them by re-instating the trade between China and this country. He was elected a member of a number of corporate bodies, and the City authori ties presented him with the freedom of the City of London and ' a gold box at an entertainment at Guildhall. Lord Aberdeen had stated, in speeches in relation to the affairs of China, that be had for . three years been in constant commun i cat i on with Sir H. Pottinger, and that it was right to d ec l are t h at hi s con duct in China gave himjust claims on his country—that as difficulties arose he was able to overcome them by the firmness and energy whi c h h e di sp l ayed.—( Hear ' , hear.) As to the immediate benefits which he had conferred on his country, the Government were more competent to speak than he was. The Lord Provost of Glas gow, at a t anquet given to Sir Henry Pottinger in that city, said that the manufacturers of Glasgow were deeply indebted to him, for increasing their intercourse with China, and that though they could not thank him in fine language, they could thank him with the sincerity and cordiality of British mer chan.s.—( Hear, hear.) Every community which carried on a trade with China might say the same with equal justice. Others then, having done so, he hoped the House of Com mons would do the same, and trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government would not think it in compatible with his duty, as the guardian of the public purse, even though it might be a little against precedent, to give Sir Henry Pottinger some reward for the valuable services he had rendered to his country.—( Hear, hear. ) Sir RO3ERT PEEL said, the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was, at any rate, a conclusive answer to a great part of the speech of the Hon. Gentleman by whom the motion was brought forward. It might be inferred from the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. C. flobhous?,), who made many unjust observations that there was a disposition on the part of her Majesty's Government to underrate the services of Sir Henry Pottinger. No occasion had ever offered itself in that House in which ho had not cordially done him justice —( Hear, hear.) He did cer tainly state, as a reason for not including Sir H. Pottinger in the vote of thanks to Sir William Parker—and he said it was with regret—that the occasions were so rare, and the services which rendered such a mark of public approval necessary so great, that a vote of thanks was not proposed, rather on account of the danger of establishing a precedent than from any desire to underrate the services of that distinguished man. He (Sir R. Peel) was prepared to repeat in that House all he said of Sir Henry Pottinger. Having no personal acquaintance with him, but well knowing his name and his character, he should have as unbounded confidence from the Government as from their predecessors. The Right Hon. Gentleman said it was unfair to give a distinguished officer 6,000/. per annum after long services, and to grant a similar sum to Sir Henry Davis. But that was because a certain salary appertained to a certain office. Mr. HUME was understood to say that he did not draw that comparison. Sir ROBERT PEEL said he understood the Honourable Gentleman to say that Sir Henry Davis was not so well entitled to that pension as Sir Henry Pottinger. Sir H. Pottinger had shown the utmost discretion, and he gave him the greatest thanks for the kindness with which he had treated the Chinese, and for the firmness and decision by which he had brought about the treaty between this country and China, Ix he (Sir R. Peel) knew the difficult position in which he was placed.—( Hear, hear.) In one respect, Sir H. Pottinger could say that justice had not been done to him. He, took upon himself the responsibility of opening the trade with China to all nations, as well as to England. No doubt he was desirous to form a treaty with other countries, hut the first instruction which his Noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Department (Lord Aberdeen) transmitted to him in 1841 was this :—" Secure and well regulate trade with China, and constantly hear in mind, that we seek for no exclusive ad vantages, and demand nothing that shall not be enjoyed by the subjects of all other countries. " ( Hear, hear.) Those were instructions which were sent to Sir H. Pottinger by his Noble Friend before the signature of the treaty ; and, therefore, let it be said for the credit, not only of Sir H. Pottinger, and of the two great parties in this country who had administered the affairs of Government for the last four years, since the diffe rences with China commenced, but for the credit of the whole country, that no wish was further from their in tentions than to secure in their intercourse with China peculiar and exclusive rights.—( Hear.) Let it be known to Europe and to the world that there was no man in this country who wished to secure narrow and paltry advan tages to which the whole world should not be equally entitled. —( Hear, hear.) Any one would infer from the words of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) that they had withheld from Sir 11. Pottinger some reward which it was in the power of the Government to confer upon him, and the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. C. Hobhouse) said that they had encumbered him with laurels. He ( Sir R. Peel) did not say that he had been created a baronet for his services in China, but for long services to the country in sarious ways. He did say that they had conferred upon him the highest honorary distinction next to the garter—a distinction which had been conferred on many great and brave men—a Grand Cross of the Bath. That honour was conferred upon him by the approval of a gracious Sovereign. —( Hear, hear.) Did not the Hon. Member consider that a distinction, unless it was accompaniel by money ? He (Sir R. Peel) believed that Sir H. Pottinger was proud of that honour, not because it was unaccompanied by money, but be cause it was a mark of the approval of his Sovereign. He thought, therefore, that he had shown that the statement of the Hon. Member that there must be some reason why Sir H. Pottinger remained unnoticed, was an unjust insinuation—that there was no foundation for it. There was no honorary distinc tion which the Crown had not conferred on Sir H. Pottinger, and he could not say, so far as the Crown was concerned, that he had been unfairly dealt with. Then they came to the pe • cuniary consideration—that the Crown having some power to grant a pension had not exercised it. He did not hesitate to say, that if the Crown had been free to grant a pension, the , Government would have at once advised the Crown to grant it—( Heai, hear)—but in the case of Sir Henry Pottinger the Crown had not the power. What then became of these invi dious distinctions ?—( Hear, hear.) The last Government had the power to confer a pension upon him, but the present Go vernment could not legally exercise it. You say, continued the Right Hon. Baronet, that the Crown is niggardly. Who im posed that restriction ? Why, the House of Commons and the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(" Hear," from Mr. Hume.) The Crown could not grant a pension to any one, whatever service he had seen, on account of diplomacy, except he bad been in the service for fifteen years, and unless in actual service for ten years. And therefore the Crown had not had the power to grant a pension to Sir Henry Pottinger. It was admitted by the House of Commons that there were claims upon the gene rosity of the Crown for various distinguished services performed for the public good. Pensions might be granted for personal service performed for the Sovereign, and pensions might also be granted as a reward for the performance of public services, or for important discoveries in science, literature, and the arts; and to provide for all these pensions, the House of Commons only gave the Crown 1,200/. per annum.—(Hear, hear.) It did not, however, imply any reproach upon the Ministry, be. cause they had not asked the House of Commons to grant a specific pension for this distinguished officer ; for, had they done so, it would have been establishing a somewhat dangerous precedent. But such a step on the part of Government would have been attended with great inconvenience, for scarcely a week pissed but there were claims brought before him, %hie'', he thought, speaking comparatively, were as just and legitimate as the claim made by the lion. Member opposite; and how could they he provided for out of 1,200/. a year 2 ( Hear.) He would take the case, for instance, of the late Sir William Nott.—(Cheers. ) Look at the distinguished ser vices of that lamented and gallant officer—(Hear)--and see how easy, how quiet, how equitable, would be the claim of any Hon. Member to the consideration of Parliament, were he to make an appeal to that House, on behalf of the family of that distinguished and gallant officer.—(Cheers.) What a strong case could be made out in such an instance as this. He returned home, after exhibiting abroad a constancy and valour in behalf of his Sovereign and country which en titled him to the public approbation. He came home broken in health, unable to receive that approbation, while others re ceived the highest rewards which the throne and the country could bestow upon them. But Sir William Nott's health pre vented him not only from enjoying the merit he deserved, and the admiration of his fellow-countrymen, but debarred him of the opportunity of being presented to his Sovereign, and re ceiving her public thanks.—(Hear, hear.) Again, take the case of men of science. How many there were who had strong, claims upon the generosity of the Crown, for the useful dis coveries they had made in the sciences, the arts, er literature, whose claims might be urged upon the House with as much force as those of Sir Henry Pottinger.—(Hear, hear.) Why, he was applied to the other day for relief by the daughter of a distinguished public professor, lately deceased, and if they were to establish a precedent, would not Government run the risk of constantly having these and similar cases pressed upon them by the House? He would not go so tar as to say that these pro fessors were as distinguished as the gallant officer, who was the subject of this discussion, but those: distinguished individuals had sacrificed the interests and welfare of their families for the public good, and although their claims were not quite so strong as those made out by the Honourable Member, they were nevertheless precisely the same in principle.—( Hear, hear. ) But, considering the general feeling of the House of Commons on this subjeet, he was not disposed to interpose his opposition between the generosity of the Crown and Sir Henry Pottin ger.—( Cheers. ) The motion did not imply the slightest re proach upon her Majesty's Ministers, because they had per formed a painful public duty in opposition to their own personal wishes and inclinations. Nevertheless, he should be sorry, now that the matter had been brought forward, that there should be any division upon a subject of this kind, and he should certainly not oppose the motion.—(Great cheering. ) In compliance with the wish of the House of Commons, and contrary to his strict public duty, he should take upon himself the part of advising her Majesty to make some provision for this distinguished officer.—( Renewed cheering.) Lord J OHN RUSSELL was rejoiced to hear the closing de claration of the Right Hon. Baronet, and he could not help saying one word upon this subject, after what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet. He wished to express his own feel ings upon this subject, and to state that he thought her Ma jesty's Government had always shown a disposition to reward merit whenever they could consistently do so.--(Cries of " Hear, hear.") And let not the - Right Honourable Baronet suppose the House had the slightest disposition to throw blame upon the Government for the course they had hitherto adopted in the case of Sir Henry Pottinger.—( Hear. ) He thought, with regard to this case, the House of Commons was in some degree called upon to express its opinion, because the Right Hon. Baronet had truly stated that the House of Commons had placed limits upon the power of the Crown to grant rewards for diplomatic services. Government had been perfectly consistent in acting up to the general rule, but the case before them was an extraordinary one, and justified an ex ception to the rule.—( Hear, hear.) After what had fallen from his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose it was impossible for him to say anything more forcibly in favour of the distin guished services of Sir Henry Pottinger. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet that they ought not to establish any fixed precedent for their guidance, but, considering the par ticular circumstances of this case, he did think it formed a case of itself, and the exception ought to be made in its favour. Lord PALMERSTON could not allow this discussion to close without expressing his sincere satisfaction in the con cluding declaration of the Right Hon. Baronet. He must say he thought the decision which the Government had come to with regard to the motion of his Hon. Friend, was as honour ableie to themselves, as its result was flattering to the di guished individual who was the subject of it. He t quite Right e. under stood, and admitted the force of b t e h e e n ar ie g j u e nz e r . i iee s Hon. Baronet, that it would saforthteheG ( w H as ear t teo satisfactory have m ade thiste thepr o ps s a i l t l i e o e n t them Officers elves who . b v lt e r w n o m u l e d n t b t subject v o e f wthui he s e d e i t s c e u e s l s y lo a n r , e t w h a at rd t h g e i v r e e e w abryd thew h i c e h r e h w e e ,wbaustaa re out ward given at the suggestion of the Commons of England.— (Hear, hear.) Government might rest assured they incurred no risk by establishing this precedent, because the case stood upon peculiar and exceptional grounds.—( Hear, hear.) He trusted that he (Sir H. Pottinger) might long continue in that state which would enable him to perform other services to the country. Every relation which it was his duty to fill he did accomplish • and considering the people he had to de a l with, and the distance he was from the Government, he could not acquit himself in a manner more deserving of the approba tion of the Crown. The instructions of Lord Aberdeen in 1841 certainly justified Sir Henry Pottinger in inserting the article alluded to in the treaty ; and it was one of the acts which showed his high idea of the responsibility which he was under. There wes no man living more ready to acknowledge the services of those to wham the Right Hon. Baronet oppo site alluded to than Sir Henry Pottinger himself. The suc cessful result which took place in China was not owing to Sir Wm Parker, but to the conduct of those who preceded him. It would be honourable to the House of Commons, to the Hon. Member who made this motion, and would give the greatest satisfaction to the country at large if the Government agreed to this vote.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. JOHN ABEL SMITH supported the vote, and was of opinion that the success of the motion would be the more ho nourable to Sir H. Pottinger, because he was neither directly or indirectly connected with it. Mr. ROSS would mention one circumstance where Sir H. Pottinger had risked his own character, and the funds which were at his disposal, contrary to his instructions, by advancing money to the Hong-Kong merchants, because he felt himself bound to pay it in support of the dignity of the Crown. He mention b mentioned the circumstance, in order to show th e claim he bad on the Crown, and would support the moth Friend (Mr. Hume). s • ; Mr. P. HOWARD supported the motion, and attichhht data • case of Sir H. Pottinger was one which might be taken out of the hands of the general rule, without giving rise to any dan gerous results, and it would be much more satisfactory if this vote appeared to come spontaneously from the Government without atiy interference on his (Sir H. Pottinger's) part. Mr. HUME then made a few observations in reply. The motion was then agreed to, nemine contradicente. BURDENS ON LAND. Mr. WARD then rose to move the fallowing( motion, of which he had some time g i ven no ti ce ; —F or " a S e l ec t Com mittee to inquire whether there are any peculiar burdens specially affecting the landed interest of this country, or any peculiar exemptions enjoyed by that interest, and to ascertain their nature and extent." If it were not for the aspect of then House, which foreboded its premature dissolution, he thought he might congratulate himself on the success of two motions originating on that side of the House on which he sat. He had generally been deserted when he brought forward any agricultural question, by the agricultural Members of that House and the Agricultural Protection Society, but he thought, when they had no thirty-nine Members to protect them, and when they saw that, eventually, his motion most be brought forward, he should be sure of their attention. The policy of the Government had yet a butcreast such great deal t o d o , a l t h oug h t h ey h a d d one muc h w hi c h h a d d a b being beneficial fi the e ielcai s n e fl , u w en h c a e t on the ag condition ruments of ha t d he th pe e7n le et ; for going further ?—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Ward) did not appeal to principles which they on that side of the House had, a priori, put forth, but to principles advanced by the Government itself. It was true that the Government had, by its tariff, taken off the duties on upwards of six hundred articles, but they had left them on those articles which were most important for the comfort and happiness of the pecule of this country. He might be told that they on that s(P of the House were always talking and riot doing. Why, in his opinion talking was doing, and they were obliged to talk for the sake of the character of the Right Hon. Baronet oppo site.—( A laugh.) His Hon. Friend the Member for Stock port was, in his opinion, as much a member of the Cabinet as if he had a seat in it.—( Laughter.) His suggestions had, in many instances, been acted upon, and even the Right Hon. Baronet had admitted that his Hon. Friend, aided by high and important sentiments and motives, had rendered important ser vices to the country.—( Hear, hear.) That proved that his Hon. Friend was right, though the House voted against him. —( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Ward) believed that one of the most important services he had rendered was the course that he had pursued with respect to the Imports Committee. In England land legislated for itself, which, he believed, was not the case in any other part of Europe. In Austria and France the monarch legislated for it. He was sorry to say that the history of protection during the last session had been most lamentable and laughable.—( Wear, hear.) It was known that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have a large surplus this year, and the landlords of this country had shown a firm determination to have a large slice of it.—(Laughter.) They cried out continually against the policy of the Government, and it had bees declared at Hertford that as much as six millions had been taken by it from the agriculturists of the country. One gentleman, at a meeting there, alluding to the course that had been pursued by the Government, had, in the words of the poet, said— " That keen were their pangs ; but 'twas keener far to feel, They'd nursed the pinion that impelled the steel." —( Laughter.) The Hon. Member proceeded to refer to a meeting which had lately been held in Essex on the subject of agriculture. The Tower of Babel was nothing to this meeting in point of unanimity. The parties who had attended this meeting did not know by whom they had been called and for what they had been called. Was it not time to have done with those sort of meetings? After all, the one question only had to be considered, and that was, bad the land any peculiar burdens? If it had, let them grant the Committee which he then sought. What was the use of postponing it for another session? They could not do so beyond that time, it must come at last. Was there stability in the present system? Could Hon. Gentlemen opposite depend upon the continuance of the present corn. laws ? Why, principles opposed to those of protec tion were gaining ground every day on the opposite side of the House. The Noble Lord the Member for Pontefract had lately said that he, as a landlord, did not fear a repeal of the corn-laws. What was it that justified the con tinuance of the corn-laws? If anything, it must be peculiar burdens upon agriculture. Where were those burdens? Point them out—this was all he asked. Lord Abinger, when Mr. Scarlet, said that land paid all the rates of the country, or at least in the ratio of four to one. The Hon. Member for Norfolk had said the land paid all the poor-rates, and the Hon. Member for Somersetahire paid'one-half of the income tax. If all this were true, why not have a Committee before which the truth of these statements could be probed? He found, upon reference to the returns, that the land paid 1,323,3231. to the income-tax, while the trades and professions paid 1,466,0001., being a difference of 143,0001., or that amount paid by trades and professions above the amount paid from land. The Hon. Member then read from the reports of the Poor-law Commissioners, to show that the land bad gradually fallen off in the last twenty years in its contribution to the poor-rates, while the amount from other sources had largely increased.—(Hear, hear.) He would inquire why every householder in London should pay the poor-rates, the window-taxes, the police-rates, and other taxes, when it was proposed to amerce them in a Con solidation Fund Bill. Before you can do this a police magis tracy must be established under the inspection of the Secretary of State for the Home Department. But, supposing there might be some little disparity in the result of the Committee's deliberations to which he trusted the present matter might be referred. He then alluded generally to the duties paid on horses, horses let out for hire, sheep-dogs, and other matters connected with the agricultural interest, and showed that the reduction on the duties from 1816 to 1834 amounted to 34,000,0001. Now he would inquire, where were the duties on land? Taking every manufacturing district, including the iron and the cotton localities, it appeared that they were creating produce without having any tax placed on their industry. If the balance were struck, with land in one scale for a duty on corn, the balance would be vastly in favour of the public.—( Hear.) Agriculture cannot at present find a single individual to advoca'e its exclusive interests, and any man placed in office on the Board of Trade alto a short interval invariably came out as a free trader.—( Hear.) If the Mike of Newcastle should write another letter on the matter of free trade with a view to ulterior advancement, he was just as likely to be elected the Pope as Premier.—(A laugh.) The Right Hon. Baronet had stated his opinion generally, he meant to per severe in the determination of producing free-trade, though he should lose the support of his agricultural friends, and he (Mr. Ward) could not see why the Right Honourable Gentleman should object to his motion. The party of the Right Hon. Baronet came forward and requested his party to assist them in cheapening clothes, food, and other articles connected with the comfort of the public, and why should not the Right Hon. Gentleman come forward and assist him in the attempt to equalise commercial duties? He was perfectly confident as to the result of his motion, and even if his hopes should be disap pointed, he would leave the decision to the country. The question was then put from the Chair. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT complimented the Honourable Member who had just sat down for the good humour he had shown in bringing forward his motion. He held that his argument, that the agricultural interest of this country possessed advantages over other countries, could not . be maintained, as there were burdens on the proprietors of land in this country which did not exist in any other. The manufacturing districts were now in a state of great prosperity, and there was a greater demand for hands than could be satis fied. With respect to emigration from those districts, he con sidered that the poor-rates were heavy, because, when em ployment was scarce, they would rather avail themselves of those rates for awhile than emigrate. After glancing at other topics in the Hon. Gentleman's speech, he said he deprecated the repeated discussion of subjects of no practical utility, and which, after all, were speculative, and on which the majority of the House had formed their opinion, especially to the ex clusion of subjects of great importance to the country. The debate on the resolutions submitted to the House by the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London had, he thought, given an ample opportunity for the discussion of the subject in volved in the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. He considered that the motion would not lead to any useful result, and trusted that the House would not adopt it. In addition to this, be did not think it was the proper moment to take up the time of the House by having a Committee sitting on propositions on which the House had formed its opinion ; and when the agricultural interest had not the slightest wish to have an to of the me asures proposed by her Majesty's Government mo di fied, Theyi had n apprehension, if they would onlygive them fair pla y. d matter investing their capital in improving their land , an d as a of course employing additional labourers, a nd endeavouring to overcome the difficulties under which they were labouring. Mr. COBDEN considered that the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had not given a very distinct opinion on the questions which had been submitted to the House by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward). He had never listene d for h a lf- an -hour to a speech eo difficult of comprehension. The ques tion before that House was whether tithes were not a burden on both the landlord and the farmer, and whether the landowners contributed more to the support of the poorer classes than other portions of the community. With respect to a statement made by the Hon. Member for Essex, in reference to Messrs. Storr and Mortimer, to show the difference in the poor-rates paid by landowners and manu facturers, he begged to say that if the manufacturers did not pay poor-rates on their capital, neither did the farmers. Now he could not tell whether the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last maintained the highway and county-rate were burdens upon land or not. Let him, however, go and make inquiries amongst shopkeepers about the local taxotion imposed on that class of tradesmen, and he (Mr. Cobden) would venture to predict the amount of taxation imposed on them would be found to be not very considerably less than that imposed on landlords, far. mers, and landholders. —(Hear, hear.) But even if the land holder paid all the poor-rates of the country, he did not believe their so-called protection, however much it might be increased, would be of any benefit to them, because it was an obstacle to trade. It impeded the progress of commerce, and did more harm to the agricultural interest than all the taxes and local burdens put together.—( Hear.) How then could this sort of pro tection be a compensation for the peculiar exclusive or pecu n i ary burdens the landowner had to sustain? He was glad therefore to see that every day they were coming not only on hist, but on the other side of the House, to a better understanding en this subject, and the farmer and the manufacturer were beginning to feel that they had one common interest in putting an end to this baneful system of protection. Hen. Members were fond of quoting Mr. M'Culloch on this subject. Now, for his own part, he was prepared to assert that Mr. M'Culloch had never added a single new idea upon political economy. His statistical information was certainly valuable, but his works upon political economy were merely commentaries on Adam Smith, and, like the corn. mentators on Shakspcare, rendered that obscure which bad been clear before. Mr. NEWDEG AT E denied that protection was either the bane er curse of agriculture, and expressed a hope that Go vernment would not withdraw its remaining support from that interest. Tithes, he thought, were an exclusive burden upon land, and, taking all the other burdens on land together, be estimated them at twel ve m illi ons per annum. It was clear, therefore, that if they removed the present meagre protection afforded to agriculture, it would be quite impossible for either the landlord or tenant to contribute his share to make up this amount of taxation. They thought that this country should be independent of foreign countries. They did not wish to see the food of this country made a matter of exchange or specu lation. He did not wish to delay the House, but he made these few observations because the Hon. Member for Shef field gave them some individual instances of particular hard ship. He thought it his duty, on that account, to submit those few statements to the notice of the House.—(Cheers. Mr. V. SMITH sold that he regretted that the Secretary at-War had refused this Committee. He was of opinion that the burdens on land, and other descriptions of property, were pretty equally balanced. When the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary-at-War spoke of the returns of the Commis sioners which were laid on the table of the House, he forgot that there was a more favourable report made, which was quite unattended to. Did any man know the amount of taxa tion in the country ? The general taxation was found to be fifteen millions, and the local taxation was ten millions, so that the local taxation was two thirds of the general taxation. He believed that the rate-payers were perfectly ignorant of the re asons why they pa id rates, but they paid it on account of the manner in whic h it was imposed upon them. The Right Hon. Gentleman then enumerated the different rates which were made. Could, he would ask, anybody imagine greater confu sion than arose from different rates made for similar results ?—( Hear, bear.) The greater part of the out.. q 17 N' (- _"..: ~.-.-,. :-:.,.• , ..,..-- ,, ,,:,'S ' ,!'-':': k• 21 . ~3 : : t , .- A Nartillaf ilo l ., 1•' ' < . ion` .of biL v ......,-..?