The Sun. — London, England, 1839-07-23 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION time less than twenty-eight successive days, or in any O ther manner than as aforesaid ; and also for and in respect of every horse let for hire for twenty-eight suc cessive days, or for any longer period of time, where such horse shall be returned in a less period of time than tewenty-eight days, and shall not be exchanged for another horse, in continuation of the same hiring—one fourteenth Part of the sum charged or received, or agreed to be re ceived, on every such letting for hire or using. Or, in lieu of su c h last mentioned one-fourteenth part of such s um (at the option of the person letting the horse), the following duties for every day such horse shall be let for hi re or u se d, or shall, by virtue of any such letting, have be en under th e di rect i on of the person by whom the same s hall be hired, that is to say, for every day not exceeding three days, ten- pence ; for every day exceeding three da y s, a nd net exce eding thirteen days, seven-pence; and for every day exceeding thirteen days, and less than t wenty eight days, five-pence." The Honourable Mem ber said that he had no very alluring prospect in bri ng i ng forward these reso l u tions, but he felt it 4 ,1 3 imperative duty to urge on the consideration of the :ruse the clai m s o f those parties whom he represented for `"e modification of a tax most unequal and unjust. The Parties who now complained were connected with the old mode of communication throughout the country, and they by came fo rwar d w hen they found themselves opposed r ivals, one %title no taxation whatever, and the other with one near illusory. The first of these rivals was the com munication by water, by means of steam power. This 7as a formidable rival, but it was one of a comparatively urnited and partial character. But the most important rival existed in the shape of railways, which were spread :lllg the mse l ves over every part o f t h e coun t r y. He did ...° t . complain of these facilities, but he complained that while persons going by steam were carried duty free, the Proprietors of stage coaches had to pay B s. 4 d p each individual they might carry.—(Hear, oear.) As to railways, it was we ll k nown , that t he duties on persons conveyed by railway was one-fourth on the person s actua lly conve y e d. No greater benefit c ould be rendered to the community than by making com munication ea s y an d c h ea p. If favour were to be shown t 0 any parties, it s h ou ld be manifested towards those who the a l ready heavily tared. Then l et t h e H ouse cons id er ° ertormous amount invested in the turnpike trusts, the e debts on which amounted to 9,000.0001. advanced on the se curity of the p resen t rece ipts. When the whole country was i ntersected by Railways, would the public receive from th e Proprietors such civility as they now did ? Would not th e uon passengers be increased? and ought riot titi House to s p ecure to the country the benefits of compe r°ll on fair an d equal terms?—(Hear, hear.) The on e t asury a ll owe d compos i t i ons w ith th e r a ilway proprietors statt err us most disadvantageous to the revenue. For in -1,20e, with the London and Greenwich for 4001., on rate ° ' (4)l3 passengers, which even at the reduced railway . would produce 1,953/., and at the coach rate would yield 6,250/ The Arbroath and Forfar Railway Com pany h ad compounded pounded for 31,500 passengers in five months, the rate of 55,000/. per annum, at the small charge of Post The present system was equally oppressive to the horselatee keepers, who indeed were completely annihi fete4l on those lines of road in which the railways inter from ' Th ,. A gentleman posting in a carriage with two horses b Birmingham would have to pay 11. Bs. duty ; whereas , 4831P8ulting his carriage on the railway he would only . pay ten „,,Q.—(Hear, hear.) The post horse keepers besides vent e c i h e have to pay heavy assessed taxes on carriages, of the hey had to keep a variety for different seasons of en ,Year, and though they only used one had to pay a duty lingof five.—( Hear, hear.) The innkeepers too were raidly ruined by the existing system, while float a f h otels were permitted to sell wine and spirits without aT e le c en se• — ( Hear, hear.) Railways again did not merely t t parallel lines of road, for parties found it convenient 1 ? go circuitous routes by railway rather than the direct would not e turnpike road; the railway to Brighton, for example, would not only affect the road to Brighton but the road to z i ors harn and other places, to which parties might other -4! got Were it not for the extraordinary facilities of tra velling to the former place.—(Hear, hear.) It ought these to be forgetten that in Ireland there were none of s ° unequal impositions. A stronger argument, how !Ter, with the Chancellor of the Exchequer would per. baps be, that these duties were diminishing. The defal cation bed been from 514,000/. in 1837 to 494,0001. in the last year; and on the stage coaches alone the defi ciency had been 49,0001. He( Mr. Gillen) thought the lair mode of assessing the taxation would be by a per te ntage on the gross earnings of all parties. By the reduction he proposed, a loss to the revenue might accrue of 44,0001.; but calculating on the probable in crease of travelling, he thought it would not be more than 24 0,0001. He wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer to apply to the p resen t case t h e same ru l e w hi c h h e had first applied to the postage duty ; that a tax, the repeal of which might occasion a loss to the revenue, was yet so galling and unjust that it should be abolished even with a pledge to supply the probable dificiency. He would remind the House that when he last brought forward the subject, at the commencement of the Session, the Right Hon. Gentleman told him that he would speedily introduce a Bill, to remedy what he admitted to be an unjust system of taxation ; yet he had since intimated that nothing was to be done.— (Hear, hear.) He thought the Chancellor of the Exche quer would confer a great and a just boon on those parties by agreei ng t o the proposition. Indeed, he thought the I ght Hon Gentleman must soon revise the whole system or taxation, with a view to relieve the industrious classes, s r sie m n ake the wealthy classes bear a proportionate part.— s e p. r, h ear .) Th e H on. G ent l eman t h en move d t h e k%ommitte e of the whole House to 'consider an equilization or reduction of the post-horse duties. Mr. FINCH seconded the motion. , The CHANCELLOR o f th e EXCHEQUER begged leave shortly to state why he must oppose the proposition of his Hon. Friend. It was true that we could not take a step in advance without injuring some existing interest. It had been alw a y s so from the invention of printing to that of power looms. As for the equalization of taxation, he admitted it to be a subject well entitled to the most attentive conside ration of Parliament. His objection, however, to the present proposition was not on account of its principle, but on account of the peculiar circumstances under which it was made. The proposition could not be confined to one branch—it must, according to the argument of his Hon. Friend—and he had argued with great strength— •o to the equalization of taxes—and the. taxing of rail roads and steam communication genetally, and to the in troduction of the Assessed Taxes into Ireland; and still the question would be incomplete, for the House would still nave to reconsider the whole system of taxation, with a view of relieving the industrious and working classes from taxes on articles of consumption and substituting a prop er ty t ax . But he could assure his Hon. Friend that he laboured under a great fallacy in this idea. If he could establish a property tax to-morrow, i t would press heavily on the working classes, instead of relieving them. Why, in the present state of competition between us and foreign countries, a difference of 3,4, or 4 per cent, would settle the whole question, whether our capitalists should employ their means at home or abroad. '(Hear, hear, and No, no.) The imposition of a pro perty tax would have the effect of driving our capitalists to foreign countries. When we had a property tax before, Hon, Gentlemen opposite went to live abroad, that they might enjoy more comforts ; and if we had a property tax again, why should not the capitalists do so to increase their profits? The proposition of his Hon. Friend would entail °Pon the revenue a sacrifice of 440,0001.: and still, if the Hon. Gentleman could establish a tax on the railroads fr om London to Birmingham, and from Birmingham to Liverpool, be would not succeed in having as many horse carriages on the old roads as before, for it was not money alone that entered into the competition between the old sys tem o f travelling and the new— b ut i t was t i me . B u t having already risked a large portion of the revenue on the postage question, he could not think of proposing to risk still more in reducing the post horse duties. He could not afford to aceree to two sacrifices, they must take one only. He admitte'd that in the beginning of the Session he had promised to introduce a Bill on this subject, but then he had not seen the report of the Postage Committee. He had told his Honourable Friend on a former occasion that he could not accede to the motion in the present state of the revenue, and it was rather too hard for him after that to bring it forward again. If he agreed to this motion he would be obliged to give the benefit to canal masters, where there was no competition of railroads. If Hon. Members wished to defeat the measure, they had read a second time that night, they could not do it more effectu ally than by supporting this motion. It was his intention to bring forward a measure on the subject, but he could not go to the extent asked by the Hon. Member. For these reasons, therefore, he must resist the present motion. Sir T. ACL AND was not prepared to support the mo tion in its present state, but he felt confident the Chancel lor of the Exchequer ought to do something on the subject. He believed the parties who suffered from the effects of this unequal taxation would not be able to go through the ensuings wi nter un l ess some relief was afforded them. Th e small. reductio n of one halfpenny per mile, with the per benefit to carry al, additional p assen g er, would be a g reat to more than proprietors, and would not decrease the revenue ev 90,.000/. The revenue would decrease in that amount.on tb e i n t if the present duty was continued, and therefore Istweirld be lost by the adoption of the plan he had sug After the great sacrifice they had been called upon to make in respect o f th e Post-office, be did not think it Was rig h t they sh ou ld ma k e anot h er hafa sacrifice to the extent of tillion of money. M the Mr. HANDLEY said observations of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, withregard which e li the petitioners, had been made in a spirit of unfairness hehad , vi li h tt e l n e expected. At the commencement o f the Session this subject had beeri brought forward by Its Hon. Friend nc the M em ber for Falkirk, and himself, the Chancellor of the E xc h e quer stated it was his intentio n i n the cou the p resen t y e ar to introduce a Bill with a view toorermeedy of a great many of the inconveniences felt fr om t hi s ine quality of taxation. On the faith of that promise his Hon. Friend and himself did not press their motion to a division, and the matt e r had been allowed to sleep all this t i me. ' Now the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated the penny postage prevented his doing what be originally intended ; but he (Mr. Handley) contended that the subject of the penny postage had nothing whatever to do with the matter. But then the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he still intended to propose a remedy.—( Hoar, he ar.) That remedy he (Mr. Handley) believed was to all ow part i es to carry an a dditional passenger. But what privilege or benefit would that confer when they were now driving empty coaches along the roads ? (Hear, ra hear.) , The time had arrived when the monopoly _ would exist ought to be inquired into. He trusted they wldexis . t and extend, but he trusted there would be a nearer.,an assimilation of duties upon travelling of all kinds to at present existed. Chan cellor HODGSON H INDE contended that the of the Exchequer ought to show strong rea sons for departing from the course he intended to pursue at the beginning of the Session. It was the duty of the Government to afford some relief to postmasters, in order that they mi g h t petition with which be able to cont en d aga i nst t h e vast co petition hand to cont en d. Captai n PE tel-IEL L would support the motion of the Hon. Member for Falkirk. The postmasters were entitled to some relief under the circumstances in which they were Placed. He was willing to to e accept the smallest re li e f t h at the Chancellor of theLLquer was prlseeed tc, give, as he thought it was better than none. It showed bad taste, by the bye, on the part of the public, not to go down to that delightful watering-place Brighton—( A laugh)—because the railway was not finished. Sir C. KNIGHTLEY would vote for the motion be cause the duty it affected was most unequal and unjust. The Government had not scrupled to take off the postage duty, which pressed on wealthy interests, that had the power of injuring them. Mr. VILLIERS said the question being between the duty on postage and the duty on post-horses—the one af fecting the whole community, the other only one branch of the community—the Chancellor of the Exchequer had wisely determined to select the former.—( Hear, hear.) It was not often that Chancellors of the Exchequer consulted the general interests of the nation in matters of taxation. —( Hear, hear.) Not but that he considered the present post-horse duty unfair, but there were two modes of re lieving the parties—by taking off the ,taxes on letting horses for hire, and repealing the taxes on the food of those horses.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Some of them had, on deliberate calculation, found that they would be much more relieved by the repeal of the Corn laws than by removing the tax on their business.— ( Hear, hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exche quer had, in proposing the penny postage, made a bold and noble experiment for the general good, and it was impossible to calculate the advantages which would result to society at large from that measure.— ( Hear, hear.) One thing, be trusted, would never be done, viz., taxing the means of internal communication, than which he thought no measure could be more perni cious. —( Hear, hear.) Mr. DARBY considered a strong case had been made out by the Hon. Member for Falkirk, and that the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had dealt very unfairly with the parties in first making a pledge that he would bring in a Bill this Session for their relief, and then abandoning it udder the pretext of the subsequent penny postage plan. If his Hon. Friend could alter his motion so as to equalize the duties, he would support him, but in the prospect of a deficiency of the revenue, he could not do so. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex plained. Mr. H AWE S believed the duty might be altered without affecting the revenue, and the parties would be materially benefited. Whenever any reduction was pro posed on taxation, it was always said that a substitute ought to be found. IF this should cause any reduction in the revenue, why should they not impose a tax on real property ?—(Hear.) If this were done, the stage-coach duty might be taken off to-nsorrow, and it would give the Chancellor of the Exchequer half a million of money besides.—( Hear, hear.) If Members on the other side were disposed to act a generous part, let them show their disposition by a tax on their own property.—( Hear, hear.) Sir C. KNIGHTLEY thought the proposition now made rather ungrate ul on the part of the Hon. Member for Lambeth, for he ( Sir C. Knightley), only two years ago, proposed to reduce the tax on soap. (Great laughter.) Mr. H AWE S—And I gave my assistance.—( Continued laughter.) Mr. WAKLEY said the Honourable Member for Sussex had made a speech in favour of the reduction, but intended to give his vote against the proposi tion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not care how many speeches were made in favour of the mo tion so long as he got.the votes.—( Laughter.) So long as the Ministers had the money of the people at their control, they did not care a straw what Hon. Gentlemen might say. The proper way was to keep the money out of their hands.—( Laughter.) He believed that the Government had adopted the postage plan with a desire to benefit the public, and he was grate ful for what they had done, but considering the length and breadth of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's organs of caution—( Great laughter)—he was surprised that he had gone so far. A proposition had been made for a property tax. He (Mr. W.) liked the proposition. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer feared that the landlords would run away with their wealth to the conti nent. He should like to see a man pocket three or four hundred thousand acres of land—( Loud laughter)—he would find this rather a difficult thing to get to the con tinent with.—( Continued laughter.) A man might leave a million in landed property to a profligate son without one farthing of duty, yet if he had had a faithful servant who had been with him for 30 years and left him 1001. that man could only receive 901. of it, the other 101. being taken for duty. Until the people were faithfully repre sented in that House, they would never get justice. He would vote for the reduction of the tax, as he hoped he would do for the reduction of all taxes. He did not like to hear any Hon. Members mention the subject of a sub stitute—that was the business of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that was what he was paid for.—( A laugh.) He trusted that no tax would ever be put upon railroads. No tax would be more injurious to the interests of the country than a tax on communication between man and man. Lord ELIOTT said, the Hon. Member for Lambeth complained that landed property descended without any tax, but did not the property of the rich capitalist do the same ? He would willingly support the motion for the repeal of the tax upon stage coaches, but that was not the question before the House—it was whether it was expedi ent to equalize the duties upon all travelling. He thought not, and must vote against the motion. Mr. R. PALMER was strongly in favour of a reduc rion of the post horse duties ; hut he could nut support the resolutions of the Hon. Member as they stood. Mr. G. PALMER said it was admitted on all hands that great injustice was done to the post-masters, and if that was the case the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to propose some measure for relieving them. If post horses were taken off the roads, people would be obliged to travel on railways, and thus have to submit to every species of impost railway companies chose to inflict. He should vote in favour of the motion. Mr. E A STH OPE observed that Hon. Members bad talked a great deal about imposing a tax on railways; but they were already subjected to very heavy taxes - He was astonished that Honourable Members in proposing a tax on railways, did not perceive they were proposing a tax on themselves and the country—in fact, proposing a tax on communication.—( Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen talked about railways being monopolies ; if they were was it not obvious that every increased tax on them would be an increased tax on the public. It was idle to endeavour to set up coaches against railroads; and no mail coach proprietor who understood his interests wriuld wish that there should be an unnecessary tax inflicted on railways.—( Cries of" Divide, divide.") Col. SIBTHORP had always voted against railways and against every thing that could by any possibility tend to benefit railway companies, and he should therefore support the motion. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided. The numbers were— For the motion 4B Against it lO9 Majority --61 The House then went into Committee of Supply. 10,000/. were voted for some harbour works, and 16,000! for Government steam-vessels (to Dublin we believe). Mr. HUME drew the attention of the House to the vote of 82,0001. for Hampton Court Palace, and complained that the public were shut out from many of the finest rooms which had been granted to persons who did not inhabit them, and yet re quired them to be closed. Nineteen thousand persons had been to the Palace in one month—three thousand in one day. The National Gallery was also daily crowded. Did not this show a taste on the part of the public for the Fine Arts, and ought not such a taste to be encouraged as far as possible? The Crown should be restricted to a certain number of palaces —every fresh one was an additional charge on the public. Capt. PECHE LL gave the Government the highest credit for having thrown open the palace to the public. Mr. E WART said that many hundred pictures might be exhibited, if the rooms were not occupied by private individuals, and if this were done it would be productive of great advantage to the public. Sir R. INGLIS said the Hon. Member opposite spoke of the palace as if it were a barrack. Mr. HUME—It is a barrack.—(Laughter.) Mr. F. FRENCH rose to order. This was a debate on a palace, when the vote was a grant for the Holyhead and Liverpool roads.—(A laugh.) The vote was then agreed to. The following votes were also passed ;- 11,2501. for the new buildings at the British Museum. 6,9381. for temporary accommodation of the Houses of Parliament. 50,3601. for the building of the new Houses of Parlia ment. 1,210/. for the alterations of the Penitentiary, Millhank. 4,180/. for the alterations of the Juvenile Prison in the Isle of Wight. 8,0001. for rebuilding the Glasgow Post Office. 3,0001. for the expences attending the Ecclesiastical Commission. Mr. HUME thought the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had struck work or had joined the Chartists.—(Laughter.) Was it likely that the Commissioners would meet ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Commissioners sat under an Act of Parliament, and could not proceed to business unless five were present. Mr. T. D UNCOM BE said there was a charge of 5001. for carrying the Chapel Bill then before the House of Commons ; that Bill, every one knew, would not pass, therefore they had better strike that sum out. Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection.—( Laughter.) The vote was then taken for 2,5001. 66,8501. was then proposed for defraying the expenses of the Poor-law Commission. Colonel SIBTHORP opposed the grant until there had been an inquiry into the conduct and duties of the Commissioners. Mr. S. O'BRIEN would take that opportunity of urging on the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland and the Go vernment generally the necessity of bringing the Poor-law Act into simultaneous operation throughout the country. There were some counties in Ireland in which no prelimi nary measures ever were taken to establish Unions. Lord MO RPETH said the utmost had been done since the passing of the Act to forward the intentions of the Legislature, and already fifty lives had been preserved. The vote was then agreed to. 8 ,8501. was agreed to for defraying the expenses of Inspectors and Superintendents of Factories. f _ 51 others g f 51,1751, for e r e x m p e u n n s e e r s a remunerating the ethe Mint. medal raying B,sool. for Corsican emigrants, Dutch officers, and speci a l c l a i ms on t h e consideration of her Majesty. On the vote of 1,2001. for the National Vaccine Insti tution, Mr. WAKLEY said the physicians of this Institution only pocketed th e public mOn - ey, and did nothing for it. Lord J. RUSSELL said the salaries had been reduced, and the matter should he inquired further into. Mr. WARBURTON said the penny . . e would do away with the necessity for the establishment, as the lymph rilkeedarihhaetartire small-pox had could ir be p sent Lu Ni by p the iß p E o s remarked lately much increased. Lord J. RUSSELL said last year had been a more fatal season than usual. Mr. WAKLEY said there was an unfortunate preju dice in the lower orders against vaccination, which, how- ever, experience had proved quite a preservative against this serious and destructive disorder, when the virus was cautiously and generally applied.—( Hear, hear.) And sorry he was to find that some doctors imprudently inocu lated.—( Hear, hear.) He really thought it would be proper to bring in a Bill on the subject.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. PL UM PTRE hoped the question would be consi dered : it was one of great importance.—( Hear, hear.) The vote was agreed to ; as also 3,0001. for the Refuge for the Destitute. 3,000/. for Criminal Lunatics. 4,0001. for Dissenting Ministers, French Refugee Clergy, &c. &c. (with a protest from Mr. Hume. ) The House then resumed, when Mr. WAKLEY rose and said, Mr. Speaker, we have voted you, Sir, 1,3001. for a temporary residence. I should like to know if you have a comfortable house ?--(Order, order.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there was no question before the House, but on other grounds the interrogation would be in bad taste. Mr. WAKLEY said he would put the question on the report.—( Oh, oh.) The New South Wales Bill passed through Committee. The report on the Slave Trade (Portugal) Bill was brought up and further considered. The Inland Warehousing Bill was read a third time and passed. The Judges' Lodging Bill and the Turnpike Tolls Bill went through Committee. The unlawful Oaths (Ireland) Bill, was read a third time and passed. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-past One o'Clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 22. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at Five o'Clock. A message from the Commons' brought up the Tim ber Ships Bill, the Newark Small Debts Bill, the Ec clesiastical Preferments Bill, the Rotheram Small Debts Bill, the Haverford Small Debts Bill, the War wick Small Debts Bill, the Oldham Small Debts Bill, and a number of other Bills. RIOTS AT BIRMINGHAM. The Duke of WELLINGTON seeing the Noble Viscount in his place, wished to ask him whether, on Thursday last, when he stated the subject of the Riots at Birmingham :.Mould be inquired into, he had any in formation respecting a letter written to the Under Sc- cretary of State by_ Mr. Hibbert ? Lord MELBOURNE said that he was not aware of it at the time. The Duke of WELLINGTON felt it to be abso lutelynecessary for him to call the attention of their Lordships again to this subject from what had been said of him in another place and out of doors, in consequence of what he had stated in that House. He had been accused of exaggeration. He believed exaggeration was a Parliamentary term, and much used among certain gentlemen ; but he must set himself right as to the conclusions to be drawn both from that term, and from what he had stated. He hoped their Lordships, therefore, would excuse him in what he was about to say, because he thought he had been personally attacked in a manner that was unfair. What he went upon was neither more nor less than what the Noble Lords opposite stated they went upon : he said, and they said, they knew nothing but from what they _ saw in the newspapers ; and he had stated nothing in respect to - the fact itself but upon what they saw in the newspapers. He cer tainly had compared this transaction to certain other transactions, which, perhaps, he had more knowledge of than most other Noble Lords in that House. He said what he firmly believed, that the town of Birmingham had been worse treated on this occasion than any town, he had ever known or seen taken by storm ; and that was a fact accord ing to his opinion of the circumstances. He had stated how : first, because the houses were plundered ; secondly, because four houses were set on fire ; and thirdly, because houses were, what he called, gutted—a term perhaps not very well understood, but he had explained what he meant by it—the furniture was carried out of the houses by the mob, placed in the middle of the street, there destroyed by fire, and the embers carried into the houses again, in order to complete the work of destruction. Those were the facts upon which he had grounded his comparison, and in his opinion the comparison was well founded, because really he had never seen a town taken by storm—and he had seen a good many—so ill-treated as Birmingham had been. That was what was called exaggeration. But as he had gone so far, he would venture to go a little further. It appeared most extraordinary that in the year 1839, after nine years of a Liberal Government—after nine years of the blessings of a Liberal Administration, they should be then discussing the amount of the destruction of property in a peaceable town.—(Hear, hear, hear.) That was the result of all the victories of glorious, peaceable, and happy England, which had carried on war for twenty-two years against all the world, and made such stupendous exertions to avoid the occurrence of such evils at home. He thought such evils would never have occurred in happy and peace able England after nine years of a liberal rule. And yet he (the Duke of Wellington) was accused of exaggeration, because he had said that he never knew of any town being so ill-used. He was not at all surprised that the Noble Viscount should apply the term "exaggeration" to that statement ; but he was now about to refer to certain documents to which he wished to call the Noble Viscount's at tention. He begged their Lordships to recol lect that the town of Birmingham in the course of last year had a charter granted to it after due inquiry. After the grant of the charter, the Noble Viscount thought proper to go a little further, and made a grant to the corporation of whEt was called a quarter sessions and a Bench of Justices. Now, that grant was made in January last, and he begged their Lordships to recollect the date. It was well known that, at that time, the body called Chartists were moving through the coun try. Arms were purchased by them—pikes and all sorts of curious weapons were in the course of being manufactured, and there was a good deal of terror and alarm with respect to these bodies of Chartists. — (Hear, hear.) The Government on that ac count exhibited some intention of going farther, as he had already stated, by granting quarter sessions. At that period the inhabitants of Birmingham presented a memorial or address to her Majesty, in which, among other things, it was stated that the Government had been pleased under the authority of an Act of Parlia ment passed in the 6th year of the reign of his late Majesty King William the Fourth, to grant a Charter of incorporation to that town—that in pursuance of the provisions of the said Charter an election of Town Councillors for the different wards had recently taken place, in the course of which much asperity and party feeling was manifested. that the election terminated in the return of persons exclusively of extreme political opinions ; and it having been intended to form a quarter sessions in Birming ham, and do away with the jurisdiction of the County Magistrates within the Borough, the memorialists represented that the administration of justice had hitherto been entrusted to Justices of the Peace for the County, of whom there were eighteen gentle men of all political opinions, all residing within the distance required by the Municipal Act, and had been amply sufficient for the purposes of justice, They represented further, that it was most important to keep the administr a ti o n o f j us ti ce f ree f rom every impu tation of party bias, particularly in a town large and populous like Birmingham, where manifestations of public feeling had frequently been carried to a lamentable extent. This memorial was presented soon after the passing of the Municipal Act ; before the formation of the quarter sessions, which were nevertheless subse quently appointed contrary to the law, (so we understood the Noble Duke, who, however, spoke in such an unequal tone, now at the pitch of his voice, now in a low whisper, that we found it very difficult to hear him.) He had refrained from animadverting on the con duct of the Magistrates,—he only referred to the conduct of the Noble Viscount. These riots had occurred on the 15th ; on the following day a memorial was sent to the Home Office, stating that from half-past eight to a quarter to ten, the inhabitants near the Bull-ring, had been without protection for life and property, notwith standing that full notice had been given to the Nlayor and Magistrates, of the impending riots—praying therefore for inquiry. The answer, from the Home Office, desired the memorialists to send to that office any information they could furnish, tending to prove that notice had been given to the Magistrates of the intention to riot. The reply to this answer, said the Noble Duke, showed what kind of confidence the people of Bir mingham had in the Government. The professional Gentleman acting for the Memorialists transmitted a letter, stating that they were gratified that the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department consi dered an inquiry necessary but) adding, that his Lordship could not but remember that when on a for mer occasion some of their fellow-townsmen thought fit to represent the disgraceful conduct of the authorities, civil and military, he had sent to the parties accused, these complaints, and received private explanations, which he said were satisfactory—not communicating to the complainants the reply which he had received—the only result being a challenge to fight a duel, to a most respectable inhabitant. The Memorialists said, that his Lordship would not be surprised, that they respect fully declined making any communication to the Home Office, at the same time reiterating their readiness to adduce the fullest proof of the truth and justice of their charge,before any legally constituted tribunal, when they could do it with safety to themselves, and confidence that it would not be in vain. (Hear, hear.) Upon this document he should make no observation, except that this matter ought to be brought under the c onsideration of a judicial tribunal. These papers showed that on the 17th inst. no man could be assured that any inquiry would result in consequence of this application. 11 . e did not appr ove o f this mode of c arrying on business.—(Hear, hear.) These appli cants ought to have been afforded an opportunity of substantiating their charges against Magistrates who had exercised their duty under such uncourteous circumstances, to make use of the mildest expression ; but instead of this, the Government turned round upon them —they would not bring these persons to trial—they would not prosecute them in the Queen's Bench, or at THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, JULY 23, 1839. the Warwick assizes, or elsewhere, for corrupt or im proper neglect of their duty ; but they conveyed the information to the party accused, and exposed the parties criminating them to all the consequences of pri vate revenge.—(Hear, hear.) This had been the case on a former occasion, and the consequences of this mode of proceeding would be that in point of fact Magistrates would be exempt from punishment for misconduct, unless the Government would consent to be a party to the prosecution. He thought as the law of England at present stood, that any man could go into a Court of Justice and bring a charge, or institute a prosecution against a Magistrate, but this was not ac?ording to the code of that High Priest of liberality, the Emperor Napoleon. According to the code Napoleon, the consent of the Government was necessary before the most inferior officer could be brought to justice ; but the law of Eng land made it competent for any individual whatever to prosecute a Magistrate for misconduct ; but if this sys tem of the Home Office was followed out it would be so no longer. He hoped to see some check put upon this mode of proceeding, and he would ask the Noble Vis count if he would have any objection to lay those papers before the House, because the public ought to be made acquainted with the circumstances of this case. —(Cheers.) _ Viscount MELBOURNE was not precisely aware whether the Noble Duke intended to allude to what had passed elsewhere, or to what had passed before their Lordships on a former occasion. He was not pre cisely aware of what had passed in another plaee, but certainly whatever comments might have been made, or whatever expressions might have been made use of, he was sure that no expression was used intending to offend the Noble Duke, any more than what had fallen from him (-Viscount Melbourne) on a former occasion. The Noble Duke seemed to think he had been c harged in unparliamentary language with exaggerating. The ex pression was one that was constantly used, and seemed to him to be one of the mildest expressions that could be made use of. He would not go back to argue if it had been properly applied on that oc casion ; but if the expressions of the Noble Duke were not exaggerated, then war was a much milder thing than he (Viscount Melbourne) had ever been led to consider it. He did not exactly collect from the Noble Duke what charge he meant to bring against the Government as to their conduct with respect to the Magistrates. In the first place if he meant to bring a charge against him (the Noble Viscount) in re ference to what he was totally uninformed of, or be cause he had not been informed of it three or four hours before it happened—or because he did not act upon a subject in reference to which he had received no informa tion, or because it was not incumbent on him not to come to a hasty conclusion—or because be did not, upon the spur of the moment, institute an inquiry against the Magistrates before he and his colleagues had been able to weigh any necessary information, he could only say he did not feel he laboured under any great degree of just imputation in these respects. It was intended on this occasion to follow the course which had been taken upon the occasion of a much more serious and much more grave subject of this description—he meant the affair of Bristol ; something which certainly did appear to him (the Noble Viscount) to have resembled the taking of a town by storm, where upwards of a hundred lives were lost, where a not g r i e n a r t a part o hour r f the cn townd at half, o a n n s d where, de rab le wasbu but burnt fora down, very time, th e whole town was in possession of a lawless and riotous mob. And though there was a good deal of imputation on that occasion against the Magistrates, he did not remember that there was such an eagerness to question their conduct in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) He did not know what was the reason of that, but there certainly was not then anything like the present eager ness shown to have the conduct of the Magi strates discussed in parliament.—( Hear.) It was then thought necessary to institute an inquiry into the conduct of the Magistrates, and it was considered proper to file a criminal information against them, upon which to try them in the Court of Queen's Bench. That criminal information was filed—they were tried, and they were acquitted. Now, he apprehended no body would say it would be the proper course in the present instance at once to file a criminal informa tion against these Magistrates. The course that was about to be taken was to institute an inquiry into their conduct—to learn what their conduct had been, and to see whether that conduct afforded any ground for ulterior proceedings. With respect to the papers which the Noble Duke had moved for, he (the Noble Viscount) Lad not collected the object for which the Noble Duke wished the production of those papers ; he, however, was not only willing to accede to their production but he was anxious that they should be before their Lordships. It appeared that the Me morialists had not much confidence in her Majesty's Ministers ; whether they had any reason for that he did not know, but probably the Noble Duke would be pre pared to show whether they had or had not when the papers were produced. As to the riots that occurred at the last election, to which the Noble Duke had re ferred, they were riots in which there were charges brought against both the civil and military authorities. He was however at this moment not precisely aware of the course which had been pursued by his Noble Friend on that occasion, but be was quite sure that there was no reason to infer from the course then taken that his Noble Friend would on the present occasion pursue a course that was inconsistent with justice, or e c_t t was not intended to that he would not afford full information s before a place, course n o personal iof pro ceeding of all the facts ; but it was always neces sary first ceeding was dete r mi ne d upon. afennyctehiwngas against ted the to him. b o fide statement I on , nt of He would again assure the Noble Duke that in w h at h e had said on the former occas i on, and in what to had knowben saidthe facts another e the Noble of Duke—nothing but to convey an o pinion that the Noble Duke had given a stronger colour to his statement of the transaction than the facts then before the House could bear. The Duke of WELLINGTON complained that the Magistrates had been elected by the Town Council con trary to the law ; and th ere f ore t h e S ecretar y of State was responsible for their condu c t and hence it was that pro ceedings arising out of t h e i r conduct b ecame a legitimate subject for the attention of Parliament. Between the dif ficulty of the Secretary of State getting hold of thisinfor imi°rithe unwillin gness of the parities to give it, and then the unwillingness of the Secretary of State to prose cute these Magistrates, the affair became not the affair of individuals, but, as it was in France, the affair of the Go vernment. Lord MELBOURNE entirely denied that these Ma gistrates were appointed, as the Noble Duke stated, b' the Town Council, in contravention of the Act of Parlial ment. Nothing could be more natural than that the opi nion of the Town Council should be taken as to the ap pointment of the Magistrates for the town. The Earl of RIPON said, with respect to a statement that had been made on a former evening relative to par ties who were opposed to the grant of a Charter to Bir mingham, having made a return of false names and streets that had no existence, he begged to say that these parties felt extremely hurt at its being supposed that they would have practised such a fraud upon the Privy Council. They had done no such thing—whey had done every thing in their power towards forwarding the inquiry, and be was satisfied his Noble and Learned Friend was not aware of all the facts when he made the statement. The LORD CHANCELLOR said he had in the very same breath explained that he had applied to Birmingham the remarks which he had meant for Manchester—( Hear, hear)—and any person who read his observations would find that such was the case. The Marquis of WESTMEATH had had some expe• rience of the way in which these inquiries were conducted, and he would be glad if the Noble Viscount would state what was the course it was intended to adopt with reference to the investigation into the conduct of theßirmingham Magistrates. He wished to know whether the instructions which were to be sent down to the Commissioner would be laid before the parties who had preferred the complaint as to the con duct of the Magistrates—whether there would be a power of examination upon oath, and whether in Short, the tri bunal was one in which confidence could be placed? He would observe, at the same time, that he did not think it quite impartial that the Noble Viscount should appoint the Commissioner who was to inquire into the conduct of the Magistrates, because the Commissioner would naturally favour the party appointing him, and lean towards the acquittal of the Magistrates. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had received a letter, dated July 18, from Stockton-upon-Tees, signed by several gentlemen who were travellers for commercial houses, and complaining of having been insulted by the Chartists, during a recent riot in that town. He begged to submit the letter for the perusal of the Noble Viscount, The Noble Marquis then presented a petition respecting the Annandale Peerage from Mr. Bickersteth Johnston, which, on the motio n of Lord Brougham was read at length by the Clerk , and was subsequentl y withdrawn f or informality. Lord REDESDALE presented petitions from Had dington and other places, in favour of religious instruction in Scotland. NDON The Bishop of LO presented a petiti on t o th e same effect. Lord LYNDHURST presented a p e titi on f rom t h e Mayor, Aldermen, an d Sheriffs of Dublin, praying to be heard by Council a gainst the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill. The Earl o f RODEN presented a p e titi on to t h e same effect from one of the officers of the Corporation of Dublin. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from a public meeting held at Glasgow, signed by the Chairman, depre cating the conduct of the police at Birmingham as most illegal and unconstitutional. Ho felt it his duty to correct a very prevalent error with regard to the Riot Act. It was a mistake to suppose that the police or military could not act until the Riot Act had been r ead. They were not restrained from acting before it wa s read, but it was a felony, and formerly a c apital one, if t h e part i es assem bl e d did not disperse in one hour after it had been read. The Marquis of NORMANBY laid upon the table papers relative to the Church in Canada, which wore ordered to be printed. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from Huntley in favour of a uniform system of penny postage. The Earl of STANHOPE presented a petition from a parish in Cumberland a g ainst the abominable Poor-law ) The Nobl e Earl then correspondence which had taken bassador at Paris and the pm A l oa m vc e ee i d r bd foremtwe n ee x t e tnr A a te c ht t se . —0 British lau A g m h. French Government relative to the expulsion of certain British subjects for Meilleraie. IRISH MUNICIPAL REFORM BILL. Lord BROUGHAM said he would take the opportunity of the question for the reading of the order of the day for the second reading of this Bill to offer a few observations to their Lordships, stating the reasons of the course he was about to pursue, and he thought it better to do this before the Noble Ear objected to the second reading of the Bill, and before they discussed the principle of the measure. Others of their Lordships did not intend to object to the second reading, liut reserved themselves for the Committee to object to the details—but these were not the grounds of his objections. If the Bill were ever so unexceptionable in its princip and ever so clear in its details, still he should object to it, siacply because this was the 22d of July, and they had been sitting there for six months and done nothing. He had made a similar complaint two or three years ago, but now the evil had become so pressing, and was like all other evils, so much on the increase, that Parliament was reduced to the necessity at length of being obliged to apply a re medy to this great and rapidly increasing evil. The House had not sat for ten nights during the Session as late as ten o'clock, and the legislatorial functions had been all that time in abeyance—in fact they had done nothing but pass the time away until the other House of Parliament should send them up measures. The conse quence was, that it was utterly impossible they could get through the business that was before them. Let them consider the number of measures which stood upon the paper for consideration this day. (The Noble Lord here read the list of Orders of the Day for this evening.) Why it was impossible that all these measures could be discussed in any one day, unless they could make the sun stand still. But he was told some of these measures would be put off; he knew they must be all put off, if it was intended to discuss any one of them in they way it ought to be discussed. This Municipal Bill contained 256 clauses—it was a volume— and of these 124 clauses were partially new, and 50 were absolutely so, so that this could not be considered as the Bill that had been again and again before them. There were more pages in this Bill than in the whole of the Statute Book during the first thirty eight years of the reign of Queen Elizabeth. Was it tit to call upon the House of Lords to discuss these things at such a late period of the Session ? The Bill had been only printed on Saturday, and only been delivered to their Lordships that morning, so that they had not had the opportunity of reading it yesterday and breaking the Sabbath had they been so inclined, which he did not imagine many of their Lordships would, however, have done. Was this a proper method of treating a subject which was likely to give rise to the greatest controversy ? This was a subject which had attracted attention for three years past, and which had been mentioned in the speech from the Throne, and which therefore ought to have been brought forward early in the Session. His Noble Friend said this measure had been introduced into the other House in February. What could they have been doing elsewhere if they had not sent up before the end of the Session a measure which had been recommended in the speech from the Throne? They must have been employed in concocting most important measures, and what made this of still great importance to the question he was discussing, all these measures would have to be sent up to their Lordships—in fact measures were now, and would be for the next ten days, constantly sent up to their Lordships from the other House of Parliament. Was this right? Was this expedient? Could this be called Legislation? Was this Legislation by two Chambers of Parliament or by one only ? He knew it had been said that the House of Lords was a nuisance and ought to be abolished. Although he fre quently differed from their Lordships, and took occasion to blame their conduct, yet he had never said any thing of them behind their backs half so severe as he had said, and he hoped respectfully, in their presence. He did not agree in this opinion, he did not agree with a certain supporter of her Majesty's Government, who had given notice three years ago of a motion for reforming the House of Peers, which he had determined not to delay be yond a fortnight, and which had not yet been brought for ward, although he had in vain attempted to set on foot an agitation on the subject. Although he considered all such ideas as most absurd and most chimerical, yet it was still more absurd and still more chimerical to send up Bills in this manner, without giving their Lorships an opportunity of pro perly discussing the subject. It was physicallyimpossible for their Lordships to discuss the mass of Bills at present on the table. Did these Bills come up in such a perfect state from the other House as to require no revision ? Quite the contrary ' • they came up in such a state that even if the authors bare for them all that affection, which, by a wise provision of nature parents bore to the most misshapen and deformed offspring, even they could not be so fond of their miserable abortions as to contend that they stood in no need of their Lordships' revision. He recollected an in stance in which two Bills had come up from the Commons, in which the preamble and first clauses of the one had been applied to the other, and vice versa, and a third Bill was obliged to be brought in to remedy this defect.—( A laugh.) Another Bill had come up while he was in office, one of the clauses of which would have the effect of sus pending the administration of justice at quarter sessions, after the Ist October, the next ensuing. He had struck out the clause, and although the 13111 contained some pro visions of the utmost importance, and although it was not a money Bill, yet the Commons in consequence of so doing, rejected the Bill, and it did not become law until about a year ago. No legislature could sit year after year to Christmas, and however long the Session might continue, it would practically be at an end in a fortnight or three weeks by the great part of those engaged in it leaving town, as it was impossible that they could continue their labours in this way. Let them look to the list for to-morrow. (The Noble and Learned Lord here read the Orders of the Day for to-morrow.) The other House had not stopped legislating even now. The day after he, at the request of his Noble Friend, had post. polled his Education Bill on account of the lateness of the Session, the President of the Board of Trade had intro- duced a measure of a perfectly new character on the sub ject of inland warehousing, a measure likely to give rise to much discussion, as he (Lord Brougham) had already received two deputations of merchants on the subject He was told there was one great measure yet to be brought in, which was not even yet brought into the House of Comeions—a Constabulary Bill fur the whole kingdom : but he sincerely hoped that, at this season of the year, they would not, unless it were absolutely necessary, be driven into the discussion of a measure of such extensive importance as that.—( Hear, hear.) This evil had been going on for a long time, and three years ago he had cons. plained of it, when all felt the force of his complaint. There was but one remedy for it, and that was, tont take such steps as would compel the other House of Parliaioes to send up their Bills eat tier, and with more speed. Thie Bill might have bete, brought into their Lordships' linus iin the first instance. The General Constabulary Bill, of there was to be such a Bill, might have been introducd into that House of Lords ; and until they took the remedy into the awn hands they would always be treated in this way. The evil was increasing, end was worse now than ever it had been. Treat their Lordships' House as a House that did not exist ; call it the registry for the proceedings of the House of Commons ; say that measures without their Lordships' amendments, or their Lordships' considera tions would be safe and good measures for the country ; and all that he could understand : but to treat the House as a deliberative body, and to throw so many Bills on their ta ble as the House of Commons wasnow doing, and asking for their Lordships' assent to them without allowing them even time to read them, was a mockery and an insult to the understanding —CHear, hear.) The remedy he should propose was this, that if Bills came up from the House of Commons at this season of the year, be they good, bad, or indifferent, he would call upon their Lordships, merely because they came up so late and without entering into their merits at all, unless it could be shown they could not have been brought up earlier, to reject those measures without ceremony for that Session..—( Cheers.) If their Lordships would only consent to do that, he would under take to say that next Session the proper Bills would be brought up at proper times and a convenient sea son. He should for one, therefore, on this ground, vote against the second reading of this Bill, giving notice that upon the same ground he should vote against many other Bills yet to be brought before them—( Cheers) —and if their Lordships would follow his course, be was sure that that would be a course which would restore to them their capacity to exercise their deliberative and le gislative functions. Lord MELBOURNE rose to move the second reading of the Bill for the regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ireland. The observations of his Noble and Learned Friend applied to a state of things which was not novel— a state of things which it was not very easy to ex plain the reason of, but which he understood to exist in all parts of the world, namely, that the real practical measures of the session accumulated and were brought together towards the end of the session. There were many Bills which, though they might be introduced into tim;e- Lordchipa' House, it would not be very convenient politic, or expedient, that they should be so introduced. His Noble and Learned Friend himself had dwelt on the advantage of great majorities in the other House of Par liament. He (the Noble Viscount) did not quite agree with him in all he had said on that subject, but it must be allowed that a Bill which came up to their Lordships with the authority of the House of Commons, had a better chance of success than many that might be originated in that House. If his Noble and Learned Friend had not intended to add to the evil of the delay of which he had complained ho would not have made the speech which be had made on this occasion. But he must say that their Lordships generally applied the remedy which his Noble and Learned Friend recommended, namely, that of reject lag measures as much as was practicable towards the end of a Session. But the observations of his Noble and Learned Friend applied less to this Bill than to any that either was, or was likely to be before their Lordships. Their Lordships would recollect that the main features and prirciple of this Bill had been considered for three suc cessive sessions and agreed to by their Lordships. It had very little new in it. The bulk of it was occasioned principally by their Lordships' own amendments; and but for the Noble Earl opposite (Roden) having given notice of his intention to take the sense of the House upon it, he should scarcely have deemed it necessary to have occupied any time in recommending it. The Corporations required revision, as they did not suit the wants of the different clas ses of the people. This he had thought had been almost universally a dmitted—admitted even by the Corporations themselves ; and with the exception of the Corporations of Dublin, he did not think there had been any demonstration against this Bill. As to the provisions of the Bill, the main point of difference between their Lordships and the House of Commons was the qualification clause. The Commons had sent it up with a 51. fran chise, their Lordships had returned it with 10/. franchise, they had now sent it up with an Si. franchise for three years. After the expiration of that three years it was to be the possession of a rated tenement within the borough. Their Lordships had pointed out the boundaries, to which the Commons had agreed with three exceptions, namely, those of Limerick, Dublin, and Belfast. Their Lord ships had placed the nomination in the Crown; from that the Commons had differed, and sent it up again with their original proposition. Upon the whole, he hoped their Lordships would be prepared favourably to consider the Bill, and to allow it to be carried, which he considered would ultimately settle a question highly beneficial to the country. Lord BROUG HAM should not take his objection as to time as to this Bill, but he should do it as to others. Lord RODEN had always considered the principle of this Bill as fraught with the greatest evil to that part of the country to whiclrhe belonged, and nothing but an impera- tive sense of public duty could have induced him to rise to attempt to prevent the further progress of such a mea sure. He should not detain the House with any prelimi nary remarks, but should hasten at once to the preamble, and advert to one or two provisions in the Bill, and then state what his impressions were of the evils that must re sult therefrom. The Poor-law was not at all carried out in the spirit in which their Lordships passed it—the Board of Guardians were not fairly chosen, for what were called priests' lists were sent round, and no person, how ever respectable, whose name was not in them had a chance of being elected.—( llear.) That system prevailed even in the City of Dublin. In St. Michael's parish, in that City, a noted agitator, an old clothes' salesman, pre vailed ever a most respectable gentleman. The same principle would actuate the people in the election of the Town Councils, and he prayed their Lordships to withhold their assent from a Bill which must make bad worse. The Bill gave the privilege of a Corporation to every town having 3,000 inhabitants; the Councillors were to have the appointment of the Magistrates and Mayor—so that those who were to administer the law were to be elected by the priests' lists. What security, then, would there be for the life and property of the loyal Protestant inhabitants ? The effect of the Bill would be that the Death's Head and Cross Bones sign would be dissemi nated th roug h out t h e country, an d i t wou ld g i ve rise to a system of exclusive dealing in every county. The Bill gave the Corporations power to tax the inhabitants of the towns at their own pleasure ; for instance, in Dublin they might elect the greatest agitator in all Ire land to the office of Lord Mayor at an enormous salary _-(A laugh)—.and there was nothing in the Bill to pre vent them from appointing as many chaplains as they pleased, most probably Roman Catholics. It was danger. ous to give such powers to the people of Ireland, and there fore he implored their Lordships, especially that party with whom he acted, to allow the Bill to go no further, be cause it never could be made innocuous in Committee. The lateness of the session was a sufficient reason for their Lordships not proceeding iurther with the Bill, and considering the providential circumstances which had lately taken place at Birmingham, it was a warning to their Lordships not to give to Ireland a heavy blow to Protestantism, and the greatest discouragement to the Protestant religion. He for one would protest against the second reading of the Bill, and he felt it his duty to move that it be read a second time that day three months. Lord STUART DE DECIES, being but a new member of their Lordships' House, would not trespass long upon their attention. Being placed in a responsible situa tion in the county in which he lived, he could assure the House that very considerable excitement prevailed in Ire land during the three years in which the subject of Corpo rations had been under discussion. A great cry had been got up for Repeal, but be and his friends had said, " Wait and see what a new Parliament will do for you ;" and they were not disappointed, for the resolutions of both Houses, in consequence of the motion for Repeal, set all hearts at rest. How bad those expectations been answered ? Had they been placed upon a footing, with respect to the franchise and other privileges, with England and Scotland ? Was it shown in the Bill then before their Lordships ? Let them look at the triple rejection of a measure upon which the people of Ireland had set their hearts, and then let them ask whether they had not given a strong argu ment into the hands of the advocates of Repeal. Because that cry had been silent for a short period, did their Lord ships suppose that it would not be again shortly raised, and with redoubled vehemence? He would recommend, there fore, to Noble Lords to withdraw their opposition to the measure on the grounds of expediency and justice. He would recommend them to do so, if they wished to preserve that country from difficulties and embarrassment. Let them no longer haggle with the Irish people in a spirit of political usury upon the great question of the grant of Municipal Corporations. The Noble Earl grounded his opposition to the measure upon principle—he regretted that such was the case, and that he had not taken objec tion to some of the details of the measure. Under even the eight-pound franchise which the Bill conferred, scarcely a third of the male population of even the large towns would be included in it. The Noble Earl, as he under stood, objected to the Bill as being prejudicial to the in terests of the Established Church. Lord RODEN—Oh, no, I am for the abolition of all Corporations. Lord STUART DE DECIE S understood the Noble Earl to say, that the Roman Catholic Clergy would ob tain a great influence in the election of corporate officers, and that such a controul would be most prejudicial to the interests of the Establishment. If they continued to re ject, year after year, the measures brought forward for the Reform of Municipal Corporations in Ireland, they would drive the people to one of two alternatives—either the repeal of the Union, or the destruction of the Esta blished Church. Such would be the result of their conti nuing to array themselves against the wishes and feelings of the people of Ireland. In the absence of any weightier argument than he had heard from the Noble Earl, he trusted their Lordships would concede the principle of the measure, as well as its details largely and liberally, and thereby entitle themselves to the thanks of the people of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) . . . Lord LURGAN was surprised at the proposition which had just been made by the Noble Earl. He could not be lieve that Noble Earl would have been the man among their Lordships to propose a motion having for its object to throw out a Bill to reform these institutions, VS hose name was synonimous with all that was most corrupt and profli gate.—( Hear, hear.) They were a mischief to society as they at present existed, in their principle and proceeding —in their constitution and practice—and such was the ge neral opinion of these institutions that the Commissioners were directed to use dispatch in their inquiry in order that there might be legislation on the measure in the course of the ensuing Session. The Noble Earl now argued for the abolition of these corporations, hut he had never taken any step to effect that object.--( Hear, hear.) A case had been made out against them as strong an d i rres i st ibl e as possible. One o the most serious evils of these institu tions was their complete irresponsibility. It appeared that ninety-nine of these corporations had exercised corporate functions during the last century. Since then many of them had become defunct, and in others the amount of corporate property was so small that they might be almost said to have become extinct. There were 59 now existing, and of these 23 recognised the principle of a commonalty and fremen. With reward to the other 36, there was no such thing as a class of freemen, and the affairs of the Corporation were niaiaaged by an irrespon sible body of about 12. He asked their Lordships could that be called a right state of things? or was that a state of municipal institutions in Ireland which their Lordships ought to be called upon to uphold? . . Lord RODEN—No, certainly not: nobody would wish to uphold it.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear l") Lord LURG AN—The Noble Earl now said that he would not uphold such sinks of corruption.—( Cheers. ) He did not shrink from the term—they had been adjudged the grossest sinks of corruption, and their Lord ships would be guilty of a &diction of duty if they did not take measures to reform them. —( Cheers.) Had the No ble Earl who now declaimed against them taken any steps for that purpose ? Lord RODEN—I voted against them. , Lord L URG AN— That would not do. They were too deeply rooted in the soil of the country and in its social sys tem to be easily eradicated. The Noble Earl well knew that something more than a mere vote was necessary. In con sequence of the irresponsibility and self election of these bodies, there had been malversation and squan dering of the public property in many instances. (Hear, hear, hear.) It appeared from the Report that a very considerable amount of property found its way out of the control and management of the corporate body into other hands. Surely that was a most serious state of things—( Hear, hear)—and there could be no de viation from the line which it was their duty to pursue in such circumstances. If they looked at the parties who were renters of the corporate property they would find, in fact, that many of these men were themselves the grantees or lessees of valuable leases which had been let out to them, thus standing at the same time in the position of lessors and lessees. This was the history of these corporations. It wes a true picture, there was nothing exaggerated in it. But this was not all—" the very head and front of the offending" in his opinion was this, that they were exclusive bodies—( Hear, hear)—and shut out from corporate rights and privileges, upon sectarian grounds, the great mass of the population of Ireland. He was sure their Lordships would agree with him that such a state of things was intolerable. As long ago as 1793, a Bill had been passed repealing the Statute excluding Roman Catholics from the Corporations of Ireland, and up to this day Catholics had been practi cally excluded, and derived no advantage whatever from this Statute of 1793. In some placesthey had here and there been admitted as freemen, but nut as members of the go verning body, except in some very few cases, where a Ro man Catholic, at the instance of some influential person, had been admitted as a matter of favour, and as a compli ment to the person making the application. They were not admitted as a matter of right, but of favour. Could His iTli.NsirteA this be called a system of national policy ? And yet by this odious and intolerable rule of exclusiveness, the Roman Catholics, who were on a perfect equality as far as civil worth was concerned, were kept out, or were only ad. mitted out of compliment, or as a favour. He would say that such a favour was offensive, and such a compliment in sulting. He would ask if some such Bill as the present were not agreed to, how could local Government go on in Ire land ? At presea if a town wanted a supply of water, or if a harbour stood in need of improvement, having no local government, they were obliged to apply for an Act of Parliament, and to have local commissioners appointed for the purpose at considerable expense and inconvenience. Let them look at the Corporations as it was admitted on all sides of the House they existed at present; let themofctohn-s con sider that they had had evidence of the existence of i state of things five years ago, and that no o s e te s p . steps hi thertoCaodnsi- been taken to remedy these grie!_a o n ose would dering that the measure now before the 1 - 1 re medy this, he should, second reading of the given a vote in his life, vote for the ) with as great pleasure as ever he had - ; e C i i d he t u d e ff r h n ' thought misunderstoodt he Noblethe Lordspeech Iri T sh ho C D or o p k o o ra o t f io N n v E R L ef L orin N E G Noble Friend ot haddosi desire eot theirde- their extinction on who had just sat down had entirel existence or continuance, but e o fe f n i d ' e ia d N th o e bl l e rish Fr C ie o n r d Porat ions. the ground of their e xclusiveness. Noble and Learned withtheirapprovalLordships'of forwardmetbad which which Parliament. It a pp eared the fixed opinion o f t h e ot h er House that ce rtain Cor p oratio ns ought to exist in Ireland, passed founded on the principle of election. He was firmly of opinion that the best mode of governing Ireland was by abol i s hi ng all the C orporations--(Cheers)—and he enter tained that opinion still, but he had given up his opinion in deference to the opinion so strongly expressed by the other House of Parliament, and by a considerable number of their Lordships, as soon as he had a prospect of being able to form in each of these towns a constituency which could not previously have been formed, according to some system of rating or on any principle whatever, except the perjury of those who claim to have a voice in the corpora , tion as burgesses, and of those whom they might produce to support their claims. He confessed that he had lived ' quite long enough to have an extreme dislike to revolt'- . tions ; he did not like to take power from one class of men EVENING EDITION. who had held it for centuries, and to transfer it to ano ther class, who had never held it. He desired, if possible, to establish a system according to which a fair distribution of power should take place between the two classes, into which society was unfortunately divided in that country, and by which good Government could be secured to the people. On these grounds he had supported the Poor-law Bill for Ireland, hoping that measure would afford the ground-work for the qualification of the other measure. He had supported that other measure last Session, and had endeavoured to amend the measure sent up by the other House in such a manner as he thought calculated to attain the object he had in view—the securing good Government for the towns of Ireland. As to the allusions of the Noble Viscount, and the reasons which he had so eloquently urged, he had not any dread of a repeal of the U n i on ; h e t h oug ht a question of that sort mainly depended on the Government of the country. He hoped always to s ee t h e G overnment not only disposed but sufficiently strong to oppose every such attempt with facility.—( Hear, hear.) He had hoped that before now they would have been able to have agreed upon a system which would have enabled them to effect these objects, and secure peace and contentment to the towns of Ireland. He must agree w i t h the Noble and Learned Lord i n his objections to the second reading of this Bill, at so late a period as the 22d of July, containing as it does 154 new clauses, and giving expression to 124 new principles. He considered it was impossible to discuss this Bill properly at such a late pe riod, but as he was perfectly aware of the construction which might be put upon the conduct out of doors, he would nut advise their Lordships to refuse to read . this Bill a second time, but to suffer it to go into Committee, and diligently to apply themselves to removing its defects. Looking at all that was passing around them, more particu larly at Birmingham, and considering that as one of the fruits of Corporation Reform in this country, he thought that a still greater reason why the Corporations of Ireland . should not have the power of doing =sand, which they would have been under former Bins, and which to a certain extent the present rate conferred upon it ; and if this were nor, recti fied in Committee, he should oppose the measur e in all its future stages. He had observed that the Noble Lord who had spoken last had remarked upon the injury accruing to Ireland for want of powers for regulating harbours, and matters of that description. It was obvious from this that the Noble Lord who had spoken with such talent and abi lity could not have studied this subject very deeply, or he would have known that it was not proposed to confide to the Corporations any such powers. All that was proposed was to establish Roman Catholic Corporations, for what was called the Municipal Government of the towns, and all the former Bills seemed to make it a point to give them as little to do as possible. The present Bill, indeed, proposed to give them a little more to do ; but be did not despair of cutting it dow n i n C omm i ttee, so as, on this plat at least, to make it bear a g reater resem b lance to the P.,rmer Bills. This was not the time nor were the circumstanc e s pro pitious to enter into a confe rence w i t h the Coramissioaers upon the provisions of a Bill like this. In all probability Parliament would not sit longer than a fortnight more, and he (the Noble Duke) was sure a f ortn i ght would not be sufficient so to amend this Bill as to make it a proper Bill. Under these ci.l - cumstances, however, he would recommend that the Bill should be allowed to go into Committee, and if it could not be shaped in Committee in such a way as it ought to be, then the motion which was now proposed in the shape of an amendment might be carried. The Earl of WI C KLO W supported the measure, on the ground that it tended to equalise the laws of England and of Ireland. He could not conceive why their Lordships should have given the Roman Catholic Relief Bill to Ire land if they were to refuse this, which was a consequence of that Hear, hear.) He should not only support the second reading of this Bill, but he should oppose in Committee any amendment that might have such an insi dious object as might be calculated to prevent the House giving that which by the Bill it professed to give. It lir;B a false argument to say that this Bill made a traw'.ter of power from one set of persons to another. at, did not believe that these municipal institutions were required now for Ireland as they originally were, but ho would not adopt a measure for their abolition, unless a similar mea sure were passed with respect to the English Corporations. The gallery was then cleared for a division— For the amendment 8 For the second reading 59 Majority 5l The Bill was then read a second time. Lord DUNCANNON moved the second reading of the Metropolis Police Bill. He should abstain from making any observations upon it, inasmuch as it was his intention to have it referred to a select Committee, where alone it could be properly considered. In answer to a few words (which were inaudible) from the Duke of WELLINGTON, Lord DUNCANNON said'there was a provision in the Bill which enabled the Secretary for the Home De partment to send a certain portion of the police into the country, but when they were so employed, they were not charged upon the metropolitan parishes, but upon the places requiring their services. The 13;li urns then read a second time, and referrred to a Select Committee. The Bankrupts' Estate Bill and the Highways Bill was read a third time, and passed. The house then adjourned. PRICE OF SUGAR. EFFECT OF MONOPOLY. Table showing the ex-duty price of West India Sugar in Nlincing-lane, and comparing the same against that of Foreign Sugars sold in the same market : London, July 20, 1839. The Gazette of last night quotes the average Per cwt. price of British Plantation Muscovado Sugar, exclusive of duty, at 4os. 21d. The actual quantity sold in the week ending the 16th July, on account of the importers, and on which the above price is computed, consisted of 1,768 hhds. 104 tierces and 102 barrels, and nit of 2,200 hhds, as estimated in the market. Foreign Muscovado Sugar has been bought this week at 20s. per cwt. ; Refined Sugar, manufactured in London from F‘aieign Sugar, has been sold, less the charges of shipping, at 32;. per cwt. ; Refined Sugar, made from. West India. Sugar in London, of exactly the same quality as the above, has been sold for home use at, deducting the duty of 245. per cwt., 58s. per cwt. Too much praise cannot be bestowed upon the people at large for their forbearance in the use of Sugar—while the exactions of the West Indian monopolists are allowed by the Government to remain in full swing against their pockets. We implore them to persevere—the result of this laudable economy, exercised too, be it remembered— in the very midst of the fruit season—is that on Tuesday last the statements from the various docks of this port of the deliveries of Sugar exhibited in the gross a falling oft , 1,220 hhds ! as compared against the corresponding week of 1838. The West India consignees at this Bill.draw ing period—with a scarcity of money in the market—can ' never stand against these deficiencies in the deliveries much longer—since the 4th May to the 16th July, the demand in the London market alone has diminished upwards of 10,609 hhds., the defalcation in the outports cannot in the aggregate be taken at less. We repeat, persevere in eco nomy, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will he com pelled to break down the monopoly. According to our promise of last week, we proceed to describe the injurious character of one or'' the many abuses which beset this nation through an unbounded favouritism towards West India interests interests which sink into insignificance when compared against those which are crippled by the abuse to which we this day draw the at tention of the public. The Act of Parliament which de creed a reduction in the duty on East India Sugar to a level with that imposed on sugar brought from the West Indies, limited the boon to those sugars only which were grown in Bengal ; and it further enacted, that if any sugars had been imported into any part of that Presidency six months prior to the date of the shipment of sugar thence to Great Britain, that then such sugar should not be admitted to consumption at the reduced duty. The serious mischief these fettering conditions could not fail to inflict upon the pro fitable trade carried on between China and Bengal, must have been clearly foreseen by the parties advocating this gagging scheme—they had not the plea of ignorance to advance in extenuation; for it was notorious, that candy made in China formed a large portion of the returns, both with re-. gard to weight and value, with wbicn she could pay for the products of Bengal, and not unfrequently for British manu factured goods wen the Calcutta market was glutted with them. We have good reason to estimate the weight of candy and sugar imported in payment of merchandise from Bengal at 10,000 tons annually. Under an apprehension that shipping against em the r d tte a shff r eo i ensfeegtt the of tnfsataici ncrltoiikigeevasthrteice;orifrnvihesectalli these 10,000 tons would place at the disposal of merchants ill who were engaged in shipping sugar for the English mar kets 10,000 tons grown in Bengal, but released from consumption by the importation of the candy, & c., the ed Government thereby determinedw th tihneanWeesvtil ilinoduiratomosnaocprioaleye, an important branch of Eastern commerce, and with it the principal nursery which termed and supplied seamen for the East India Company's ships of war —a marine establishment essentially necessary for the protection of the coast and which infest those seas ; and, lastly, though perhaps not eunie in Importationfeelr accustomedi i debarreddi g a with w ho t h e i hitherto, to, luxuryw he whether r w h ß i r e i h ti h a i r s theol e f R st candyi habitsn hada consequence,n d h e them. Let it be for a moment supposed that a law was passed in this country, which should have the effect of compelling the rich to use sugar in their tea, coarse and dirty as it is imported from the West Indies, how long, we ask, would such a law be in force without being denounced as a monstrous act of tyranny? How many hours would elapse before some Noble Lord would censure from his place such a gross innovation upon the rights of his palate ? The reply to these queries is plain enough, and yet the Government having no fear that com plaints of that character made in India would ever be heard in England, recklessly proceeded to enact a law which would infallibly annihilate an important branch of com merce—materially inevitably dis gustsea- men for the Company's ships of . war—and India. And what, by a merce—materially cripple the school which furnished all the people of condition in evils? We dash of the rests, answer, favouritism to West India interests. pen, as it were, gave birththese dl:ayernns sbeietenashest hosts of pirates RIVER VIEW OF TI-IE Y •terdav the Lord M a yor and the Lady THAMES.— es . their son and two nPlces, left the Mansion- Mayoress, with with thq ir site for Windsor rangements LORD MAYORS Mansion house for the g rand Lail, to which they have invited r u a pw b ards of 400 of t e neighbouring nobility and gentry at the Town Hall, on next Friday evening, on their return from his Lordship's viewing the river Thames. This morning the Lord Mayor and the L a d y M ayoress an d family w i l l pro ceed from Windsor to Bear Wood, the seat of Mr. Walter, the late Member for Berks, who has in vited a large and distinguished party to meet them at dinner, and tomorrow morning they will leave Bear Wood for Henley. The preparations for the view are upon the most extensive and splendid scale. 1