The Sun. — London, England, 1803-03-03 00:00:00

) 1' R4l PARLMMEN . 110usE OF PEERS. WEDNEWAY, MARCH 2. Tiattta Lordships sat-but a short time this.day ; the several Bills before the House, Natura. Izzation and other Private Bills, were forw4rded in their respe(tiv - e srages. Two Read and one Naturalization Bill were Inooght up from the' Corrunons by, Mr. BURDON; which being read a first time, and some routine business disposed of, the House adjourned till To. morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. WEDNESDAY,• ittAteCH Z. THE, Sr BM:ER took the Chair at three o'clock, whin a_ great deal of private business was gone through. The Dublin YAW Court! Bill - was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Thursday next. , Sir MATTHEW RI ZILE'? brought up a Report from the Committee appointed to try the merits of the Great Grimsby Ele&ion, complaining of Thomas Hall having prevaricated as a Witness, and also stating Ms gross misbehaviour to the said Corn mittee; in consequence of which he was ordered to he taken into the custody of the Serjeaor at Arms. Mr. BRA:IDLING had leave cif abaenCe for a month. Mr. MANNINC: had also leave of absence for a . • month, ,Several accounts of the Revenue of Trela r id were . brought up by Mr. CuorroN, and ord:red to be laid on the Table. Mr. \VICKHAIA said, the notice he gave for this day stands for Friday. • . Mr, COWRY moved, that the House 'shoWd re. • soil/ itself into a Committee upon the Irish Re venue Ads; and that.the several AcConnts which had been presented should be reforred to, the said Com. mirtee,..,-Ordered. • • 'The Haase then resolved itself into a Committee, Mr. AL ER.cxnsR in. the Chair. Mr. CORRY said, - that' having stated to the House, upon a forger occasion, the suhjcft.mattcr which was now under the consideration at the Cont. mitree, it would not be 'necessary for him to occupy much of the time or attention of the Committee, by going very minutely info the.subjed. The : objeet of the Notion with,which he should now_ tr....uble ihe Committee, was to renew , the Grants of the Revenue of Ireland, which %vac heretofore annual Grants , Which were so while the ParliaMent Iris. land sat, and .which hattcontinued to be so since ; the `Union. lt Wes his intelltiOn to move, that Duties which had liiilierto subsisted, should be con iinucd. He had, at different periods, 'given notice, ' t hat he meant to propose to move, /bat these Duties should be granted Permanently, that is to say, With- , cot limitation, instead of granting thetil annually ; ;indite should therefore now move, to continue them without any period of limitation. 'Pv.; reason why he proposed to make this alteration, a nd `clepitrt fr o m the usual mode, was this, ,viz. fur the purpose of iiroviding a permanent Fund to meet ,the permanent . ' Charges of Ireland—such „as the Interest of the Debt, the provision fur, the Sinking Fund, and also several Grants tinder Ails of 'Parliament, from the commencement of His kiaj,.sty'* reign to t h e pre. sent time. These were- ::11 chatis to which the Consolidated Fund was liable, without any Annual, Grants. The case was d'lferent with regard to the particular ,servicce of each year ; for 'them it was nectspry to come` to Pallianient for provision every year,, as in this. Country. But with regard to the National Debt of Ireland, it had never yet been permanently provided for, though, upon the pre. priety of making such a permanent provision, he was sure there could not be two' opinions in that House. If the Committee should - concur with him upon .this occasion, then the Interest of the Na. tional Debt, and other permanent charges in Ire., land, would, as in England, hto4 a permanent pro vision.: The other Grants for which he proposed to make this kind of provision, were also in their . na. tire permanent. With:regard to the Duties which he now proposed to continue, they consisted of Du. ties upon Imports, upon Exports, Bounties, Draw , backs upon the lke.exportation of Foreign Comm, disks, certain Duties upon Tonnage, together. with all the Inland Duties of every description. They were generally the same as had Subsisted since the Union, and since the last Parthiment, of Ireland, He said generally; because - ,there were sonic small diarences, but not of a i nature Sufficiently import. ant to render it necessary for him toga into detail *upon the subject but if the COMmittte,: or any Gentleman, wished to have any mace detailed in. formation upon the subjesa, he would give it 'with the greatest satisfaction. In some cases in ther;e Duties, where there were (radians of a penny, or of a farthing, they had been made bp to the 'integer, but the difference was very trifling indeed. In the case also of Licences granted to persons' to carry on certain trades, in some instances the duty of . the Licence was raised, but he hoped, it had been done with due consideration of the nature of the trade,' and of its capability to afford it and he had every reason to believe, that they would not in any instance be found oppressive. With regard to Draw_ backs, to Bounties, and to Inland Duties, they re mained the Same'.. He took this opportunity of stating, that ivith 'regard to the Duties on home made Spirits, certain .notions had gone abroad, and discussions had taken. Otter., but he wished dibrindly to say, :that there, was nothing in these ReSolutions which at all touched the subjeds which had -been co " wader dismission. He was sure that many Gentle. men who ripreiented ille other part of the United kingdom, perfe4ly comprehended what he alluded • to, and . he was therefore anxious to make their minds easy, as well: es those of their Constituents, .hy'deelarirtg that the subject was not touched in the present ResolUt ions i neither would it lie brought kir., ward'Without ftfli:notice being given. Mr, Cott it y proceeded to not ice some other slight alterationswhi c h he prop-wit to Make, such as placing two o r th ree , towns which, from their extent itnti pbpulation w ere ' entitled to rank among the fi!§t towns in that ela sti to whieji tbey beloogO, tiers se Oe:persßps • la in these tcans paid more for their licences than those who resided in smaller ones, :With regard to 'olc proposal mole for repealing certain DOties, he wish_ ed to state tliat his objed was, to pot all the Duties into one Aa,, in orderthat Merchants might have _before, them in one view, all the_ duties which they had to pay. The whole of the Duries he sliould therefore propose to re,enad in one •Aer of. Parlia merit, with sor...*-very trifling alterations which he did not' think it then necessary to oceupy , the time of the Committee with detailing at length. There was some difference between the book of 'rates in England inid I t reland ; ,some articles appeared in the one Whi , ...11 ~ vvre not in the other, and sometimes the Satnefartieles went tinder different*nominations in the two Gauntries. He had endeavoured to assimi late them as touch as possible to each other because this di ff erence might be produdive of great incon. venienee ; for instance, if Accounts were called for from the Custom.houses of the two COuntries with respell to some articles, the accounts,. for the reason he had given, would not agree. This ikonve. nienee was not merely of a temporary nature, for the Committee Would recalled that at the end of tweory years, by the Compad of Union, a. new view was to be taken of the respective wealth, and abilities for contribution of the two Countries; it was therefore a matter of the greatest Importance that the Accounts of Imports and gxpo“s should be as accurately kept as poisible ; and for this pur. pose an uniformity of dernrnination was absolutely necessary. Another objet which he had endea. voured to accomplish was, to reduce the Duties which in some • instances'were rated Duties, and in others - ad (valorem Duties, to one 'general rated T)uty. This w 0914 hp a very great convenience to Merchants, for whose accommodation it was he pro. posed this regulation. Mr. CoRRY then concluded with rnoviog his Resolutions. Gaon.' VEREKER said, he wished to have some information respecting the Duties upon . Home-rtiade SpiritS,. because it was' it subject upon which con. siderable interest was excited in Ireland. Mr. CUR BY said, he had already stated, that theJ bulijet cc) . which the Hon. Member' alluded, was not touched upon in these Resolutions. Colonel PEREKH? said,. this was a subjed upon which the People - of Ireland were particularly at7.i. ous, because is was almost the only point in which they profited by the Union, and it %vas therefore of great importance, that that advantage should not be tmken from them. Mr. WICKHAM replied, that it was not pro. ,posed to decide the subje6t to which the I fon. Mem. ber alluded, in these Resolution ; it was kept orn for figure consideratioo and disCussion. aIr.'LEE said, he certainly had not made up his Mind upon the puha which had been last adverted „to, but he did nor consider it as being at all before the Committee, and he was sure his. Right Hon. Friend had only mentionq it to chew more di,tind. ly that it formed no part of the subjed then, under the consideration of the Committee s Mr. Co 11. Y explained. Colonel 4 ACWELL said, „,it was certainly a questitiri of 'considerable importance, wherher - cer tail) duties Should be, appropriate 4 flir,.certtin put - - wises. Undoubtedly the beat secority,nlight•to be 'giVen to the Creditors of' the National Debi, bitt he thought it necessary that the House should have further information with regard to the diareirt Du. t i es and 'r i m s which they were called upon to vote permanently. ln the lank Session, the Duties were voted altogether, and it was now proposed at once to , make them all permanent. ;He was by notneans inclined to give any oppbsition to the tneasure, or to oppose any of the Duties, bot he really Onto& that upon a question °fist) Much 'magnitude some further time should be given for cOnsideratian, in order that they might know what they were to vote. Some 'of,the Duties which it Was proposed to continue were etinsidered in 'lreland as War Taxes, and that they were conSevently to cease on the termination of the War. Such tar instance was.the Duty on Windows; and : there were som e • others which, in his ()Onion, required examination before' they were voted permanently. - He hoped, therefore, that the Right, Hon. Gentleman would not. press the. Resohniona at present, but that lie would postpone them, at least for a few dips. Mr. CORI Y said; that the Hon. Gentleman had complained of the want of sufficient information; and had stared that the Dutiei had been voted last Session altogether,. He begged, however, to ob, serve, that everypossible information had been laid before the• House. In the two last Sessions, and in the, present one, accounts had been presented of the amount of the .Revenue of Ireland, and also an ac, count of the permanent Charges.' 'The House was therefore in possession of the two speties of infor. motion which were necessary, vlz...the amount of the Revenue, and the amount of the Charges. By an account now upon the Table, the Honourable .Gentlemin would find that the receipts of the Ex. chequer of Ireland last year amou n ted to 3,3t0,0001. and the aMount of the perManent Charges, consist. Ing of the different items to Which he had 14. fore.alluded, amounted to z,551,000. 'The Hon. Gentletnan knew that all the Revenues of , Ireland formed one. Consolidated Fund,'and that wha tever excess. there was after the payment of the perma. rent Charges, was del olicable to the current ser. vices of the year. There: were already . graoted this year many serviees, exceeding the surplus that would remain of theßevenue,,after the payment of the permanent charges sea that the 'House was in complete possession of every part of the subjed. The lion. Gentle Man had . 'stated, that some of the Taxes which it was proposed to continue were consi. .dered,in Ireland as. War Taxes, and that it was ex, pencil they would cease on the termination of the War, angl had instanced in particular the ditty on Windows . . Upon this subjed the Hon. Gentleman had certainly fallen into an error. There certainly had been an 'attempt of - same persons whose sentiments were ex.. tretnely different • from' the . Hon. Gentlem an ( an d indeed he ought almost to . make an apology'' for making any sort of comparison between thein i ) he meant the. acohins of Ireland, to represent thi s as a War To but certainly no such idea was thrdwn 014; when the Tax, was proposed ; 'it Was u Sion far the largest Loan that,liad ever then been Made in Ireland. Thte aon, (.;entiernan might 'indeed Tecolkie regulation which was made for the Collec 09q gf ;4; P*l wiliCtl YfP 4 WiOrg4l4tiopor.: • la had been the avowed objeCt of many persons licland to ()tumid the Public-Suppliea in' every possible way, to depreciate 'the Paper of the 'Dank of Ireland, ,and tojojure the National Credit ; and in order to prevent those persons from throwing off their shoulders their share of the general burthen, a Clause was introduced which enacted, that persons should Ray the Duty according to the number of Windows, which their 'houses contained at the time when the Tax was laid on. This Regulation was certainly a. War Regulation, and, of course, ex. pired with the War. • Colonel BA 6W ELI:, Mr. Lae, and Mr. CQRRT, severally explained. , The first Resolution was then agreed to. - In moving the second Reiciluiioo, - Mr..Coatav observed, that'some of 'the Taxes of this Country had, for constitutional purposes, been always voted . annually, such as the Land and Malt. Now, as he should be always happy to see Ireland' assimilated to England, particularly in every thing that regarded her Constitution, he meant to -propose, that the Malt Duty of Ireland should' not be .voted permit. nently, but annually, as in England. BAGIVELL said, , it was by no means his wish to give any opposition, Or to throw any im. pediment in the way of public business ; -hut as it was a subject of very great importance, he wished the Right Hon. Gentleman would defer the con. sideratton of it for a few days, in Order to give the Gentlemen who represented that part of the United Kingdom art opportunity of inquiring into the sub. hed d . Without entering at present into the subje, e wished to observe with reaped to one Tax, which appeared to him to he very unfairly laid on, he meant the Tait upon Leather; the Tanners of this Country (England) paid at the rate of mile penny per lb. 'which was allowed as a 'draw-back upon expoitation to Ireland, and , then 'the duty of one penny was again laid 'on from the mode of colleding the Tax in Ireland, the Irish tanners, instead of one penny, paid about z4d. or something more, per pound ; sand this he knew' had excited considerable uneasiness and dis content. His 'objed in mentioning these circum. stances was not, he repeated, to throw any Obstacle in the way of business, - but if _Oostible to remove every ground of serious objection. • Mr. J. L A TOUPII E said he concurred with the Hun. IVlernber who 'spoke last, in hoping that a few days •would be-given for the .consideration of the subject. There was one Tax which he was instruft ed to oppose as a permanent Tax,. and that was the duty upon Windows. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to suppose ' the opposition to" this Tax pro. ceeded from personS of dispositiona not.very favour. able to the. Constitution ; ; but _he had a petition aninst,it from one of the most loyal Corporations in Ireland, the' Corporation of the City of Dublin. Mr. COI Rl'. said, it certainly was not an objet} :with him to hurry this business through the House, or to prev,ent a full discussion •of every part of it ; on the eolitrary, if there was one mode better cal. culated than another, to afford the means of dis. Cossion and investigation, he should most readily consent to it ;'bun he begged leave to remind Gen. iletnee, that 'the duties which it was now imposed to continue, were the same as those which had been voted in , the Parliament of Ireland. With resped to what hid been said about the Tax upon Leather, he wished to say a very few words-. Since this • Tiix was originally l a id on, at the rate Of one penny per lb. it had neht been increased, and it wag a tr;de which, like many others, was carried on upon a very small scale in Ireland, ,and was spread 'generally .ot ur the 'face of the country ; the consequence of which Was, that in the distant parts of the kingdom, many of the Tanners paid little or nothing to the Tax ; and those who resided in, or near great towns, could not bring their articles market nearly ad cheap as those who were enabled to evade the duty. Krinwing it to be the state of the trade, he had endeavoured to inform himself whether any plan could be adopted, which would secure the profits of the fair Trader, and at the same time insure the olledion of the revenue. From the information of a tanner, who had beep in a considerable' line of business, anti who was enabled to give him compleat information upon the suhjcF3 , , he (Mr Coalty) was able to form :t system, , which, in his opinion, Would secure , both these objects. He then called together a meeting of the trade in the city' of DO. tin 'they were at first extremery hostile to the system lie proposed ; but, after repeated discussions aipon the.subjed„ every man remained pettedly sa. tisfied with the Tait—and .to prove which he would Mention a circumstance, (which of course he should not otherwise allude to)• the Corporation of Tanners voted him their, Thanks for his Plan. The died of this regulation was, that in the ensuing year the Tax amounted, to . 52,0 0 01. wher4s in the pre. ceding year ,it was only tB,oool. It. was true s that in different parts of the Country there were some murmurs upon the subjed he believed, in particular frog the City of :Waterford. His Right Fro w n. Friend (Mr. Wu:Ku-Am) transmitted to him aome information upon the iulijed,:when he was on the point of embarking for : England, which 'indueed him to delay his voyage, and to send down to that City to request that a deputation from the trade there might be sent op to, investigate the subjest.witli lani, which offer they, however, de.. dined. With respect to What had been said by the Hort. Gentlemen upon the proptiety,of delaying the 'discussion toxin this question, the wished to observe , to them, than this subject divided itself into dif. ferent heads . . that they were now considerin g t h e • propriety of on. the duties, and that the proper time for discussing the mode of colleding them would occur in another stage of the business; as to any alteration which might be thought necessary in the mode of calleding.the Duties, if Gentlemen thought a delay upon this subjett was necessary, he should have no hesitation io concurring in it. But, with respect to the Duties themselves,. Gentlemen knew, that they all expired 'on the zgrh of Miirch.. It may be asked, why he did not introduce this measure sooner ?' This question he would 'answer, by askiag another, namely, Why it was, that Gentle men from that part .of the United Kingdom did not appear sooner in their places ? for he was portico. lady anxious not to bring forward a Measure so im. porifint ip that part of the United Kingtiorn, *Mist to marry of its Representanvell were abstrit• Vir• tsf# explained, Tke CHANCELLOR Qf tke EXCHEQUER said, , he really hoped, that Gentlemen would not press for any further delay. It would be remembered, that the Preamble of this Measure was discussed last Ses.. sion ; that distind notice, was then given by his. Right Hon. Friend, that the present Proposition would be brought forward in the present Session. — It was in the contemplation of his Right Hon. Friend to 'have - brought it 'forward previous 'to the Recess; but he abstained from it, on account of the absence of so many Members, who represented the other partof the United kingdom; but he then gave. notice, that he would bring it forward .at an curly period after the .Cbristmas.Reeess, and since then,- his time had been occupied in consequence of Ms . being upon an Eleaiun Committee. The Commit.- tee would recollea, that the Irish Duties would . cease on the asth of March, the necessity of dis patch must therefore be obvious. It would also be recolletted, that it was merely the, Resole. tions that Weft before the Committee, shot the subjed would again come before the House in the *shape of a Bill, in the various •stages of which Gentlemen might state any objeakos that occurre d to them. W hen. he recolleaed that the Grants for the Permanent Charges of Ireland were *voted from year to year,. he was really astonished hoiv the Cre dit of that Country had stood so high as it had do" for the last two years. The necessity of a v oidi,ll any unnecessary delay was obvious from a variety of considerations. Suppose the. House should not be able to make the necessary ballots, and that 'the public 'businesi should be suspended for a few days's' the consequence would be, that. the whole Revc cue of Ireland - would he in a state Of abeyance. He. therefore hoped that Gentlemen would feel the Inv.' propriety of proposing any unnecessary delay. • Mr. 1 / 4 NSITT ART said, that with regard: to what 'had been said respeaing the duty paid upon leather in this country, it certainly was orig inally one penny, but it had been increased to about '21 , 1 , per pound. Ccl. PEREKER said, that a . generai Notict up.' on a subjeft of such impo rtance , w a s by no means sufficient, and he therefore was anxious that some further delay should be given. Mi. ORMSBY said, that if the Roo. Member had recolleeted for a moment, he must have known. that What , he called a general notice, was in faaAo most specific notice that could be given, becaufle as all the duties which it was proposed to renew were in print, a 'notice that they were to be renewed iv. 29 the most specific notice that the sublia would admit of. Col. VIRRXER eiplained. ' Mr. MAC:NAGII7'EN said, that every resrea and attention had been paid in that House to the. interests of Ireland, but it appeared to him that W') delay upon this subjeft would be attended with the greatest inconvenience. The Malt Duty Aft was ordered to be / taleetl• into consideration, by a Committee of the : 141°1g House, to.morruw. TIie,ATTORNET GENERAL of IRVLAND g notice, that he should bring in a Bill for preventing Cdtting and Maiming in that Country. Leave,granted._ Leave was also gianted to the krtosiNeY Griot, RAL Of IRELAND to bring in a Bill for preventing, Forgery in that Country. The Prince of Wales's Annuity Bill was re ad a second time, and committed to a Committee of dull whole House. The Mutiny. Bill was read a. third time, and passed. The CAANCtLLOICOf the nen:ley/IR moved thegalidet' of the Day ,on a,Commit tee of t h e whop Hone, on the Army. Extraoidintries. The House then iesolved into.st Committee. the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEIt then said, it must be in the recollection of ever/ Gentleman present, that the sum of one million siX hundred thousand pounds had been voted for the service of the Army, for one. Year ;—first there had bren six hundred thousand pounds voted ; and died, one million. At that time he had distinetly stated/ that the before.mentioned slim would not be sufaei. ent, and as CirCUlTlstanCes had since occurred, which rendered it highly necessary to increase the sum, he begged leave to move, that one million thirty.two thousand one hundred and fifty pounds be granted to His Majesty, which had noc been provided for by Parliament. Mr. FULLER said, upon the face of the stated rhents given by the Right ,Hon. Gentleman (die, CHANCELLOIt of the ExOttrovEit), it appeared perfedly just ; yet he thought it proper to observe, . • that every care ought to he taken to discover,' and . 1 prevent, any false demand, that might be made on Government, since the conclusion of the War. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ohserved, that it had been the business of Govern ment to see that every Estimate was pettedly , RC' curate, and that , every Bill was minutely exartined by Officers appointed for that purpose, before they were paid ; •and therefore no fraud could Po sibly be committed on Government. Mr. PHNSTONE said, he wished to be ft rn" formed, with respea to the expenditure r)( fi ves thousand pounds, for cloathing the Troops in t he Island of Ceylon, he having been in that Country, and knowing something of the afftirs of India.; ht ever understood that the East India Company fur. nished the Troops of Ceylon at their own expence. He therefore wished us have the (tinter explained. Mr. reINS 17TART rose, and said, that the East India Company always send out cluarhing ler their Troops. When Ceylon becarrie the property , of this Government, the Crown thought it their duty to find the Troops of Ceylon with cloatht, which article they were much in want Chkeral TAR ETON' said, as the differences bee tween the two, Countries had ceased, and as tie Empire was consolidated, he hoped that the Army of the two Countries would in future be placed on similar establishments. The Report .was ordered to be received to morrow. Sir JOHN ,WROrTES LEY wished to Icrotv what was to be done with the Petition respeding the Malt Duty. He observed, that if His Majes. ty's Niini,ters did not bring the Petitions forward, 'he should certainly underlak; that task at a fit; period,