The Sun. — London, England, 1803-07-19 00:00:00

Mtiesrv's Ministers with .respea to the system t adopted by them for the defence of the Country. He adMit red the occasion weuld give rnom lot it.if • any reason existed . for'sech an . attack, but Ile objol.. ell ..to its being made now as (informer occasions by . a side wind instead of being brought • fdta'arti in that shape in whieh,Government might ineet it fairly, when he was convinced it would be foUnd to be ',completely unfouoded. The Right Hon. Gentle m:tn had alledged that sentiments of a desponding nature had improperly been imputed-to hitn, but the question was, whether 'the sentiments of toe Right - Min: Gentleman did . not go to this in the public• estimation--that with all our exertions . little• was to be hoped fur. He did not mean to say that: such were actually the sentiments of the Right Hon.. Gentleman, for no man 'he believed possessed a• larger portion of real English spirit than' his Right 'ion. Friend ; but the question was, whether the tone:And 'the inanner.: of those• sentiments did not tend to depress public exertion. With res. pea to the measure now before the House, for the Defence of the CObtitty, it had - hien said that it ought :to have been brobght forward, before others which :had'already engaged the attention of the 'House ; buthe was certain of this, that a measure too campliCated and too large, would have-been rendered, from its very nature, inefficient. He be. lieveL4 that. with respect to- all measures of this sort,- they. ought, as in the present, case, to be carried into execution gradually and successively, : inH order that their °Ned might not he defeated.— It had been . stated by the Righalonourable Geti, tlelnao, that there had been a criminal remiss. ness on the part' of Government • but how was' the fact ? During the Peace an Army was kept up greater that at any other period of Peace, and not . a Soldier Was disbanded w h o h a d not been enliited for temporary service. And if a comparison was made it would be found, that. there never was a period when so great a foam as the present wad kept up under similar circumstances. Compare the' present period with any previous to the ' , French Revolution, and if that should not be considered -as. a fair comparison, which he admitted it was not in a great measure, compare it with the • years 1797 and 1798; compare it with the, period when we were not only . at war with France and Holland, but with the Northern Powers, our 1 . farce would be fund to be much greater. With re aped to objections of this nature, howeVer, it was fair to consider, that this was the first year of .War, and • thaeit was impossible for -any .Government. to have establishments such . as Mightlie on foot after several' • years of War. He did not wish to enter into any .detailed argutnent with rasped to this subjea, lint f i le would ask, at what period the Nival and Lary Ilifence of the Country stood higher? u se aPetion kid been made by the Right Hon. Gentle. Man lo"the general orders issued under the Defence Bill, 'hut. those orders were merely issued in con. formity with that Hill, which was . nearly the same as Outing the last War. -The Right Hon.. Gentle. wan had like wiie objeCted :to the choice of their sawn Officers by Volunteer .Corps s' this principle, what , tier might be thought of the justice of it, had been adopted by Parliament ; but it was to be obseived, 'that Officers so chosen must be approved by 'the • Lord Lieutenant; - and through him by His Majesty. It4lt 1. - loti.,Geitteman, had, on a former cc. erasion, 'asked why - compulsory measUres • were nor resorted to, though certainly a compulsOry inoesure for home defence was -as-conformable to the Law of the Land as to justice and reason. The &jell of - , the present measure,-.was. to ,enable His . Majesty to' know the number of ail those in his dominion* who were able to bear arms ; but at the same tittle * , it.» sufficient number . of Volunteers could be obtained, the compulsory clauses, would not be aded upon. With respett to the objeaion against His Majesty's Ministers, of delay, he• contended, that if all the measures intended for the Defence of the Country. had Been brought forward at one period, they would have failed of any pratlical effect. It might be supposed by some, that this meakurc ought to - have preceded the other brought forward for the same purpose; but he contended, that the tway in Which they had been brought forward, gradually, • and -one by 'one, was the most etredual. With • respeel to the view 'which' had been -taken o f the probable success of an Invasion by the Enemy, he could not .believe for a moment,' when he looked 'at ahe spirit of the Country, that such a projea• could be ultimately 'successful ; nor 'did 'he • believe that the possession of London, or of twenty Londons by the Enemy., could have l any,etfeaWith • a view to such ,ultitoise success, whilst .an' acre of English ground remained for Englishinen . to, fight Upon for their 'independence. As to the question `with respe& to What we might suffer train a suc. cessful- Invasion, those who had been accustomed - to the enjoyment of freedom could not become slave's iaithoOt becoming the worst of slaves, even as to interior concerns, bow much more 'then with.tespea to the exterior.. ' When the glory and boast of our history was of sueeesses..agai ns i France, could we txpett but that every degrading and humiliating Measure wanild be'earrigd into deft proportioo te to that glory an d t h ose successes against the Enem y ? . • tie had heitid with peculiar pleasutelin a former night, the Speech of an Hon. Baronet ,(Sir #.-LAM Eits . KINR) with respect to the . comparative rydrits of Enaltsh and French Troops, but still we ought to provide against the chances of War, and be thought this measure in conjunetion with the ethers which had been adopted, to be the best culated for that purpose. : Mr. WINDHAM explained. After 'a few words from Sir FRANCIS Buirierr, ith.•piTriald, he did not rise to trouble the' Youse at any length upon this subject, as he ap. proved .of the general outline of the measure that ad been proposed.as far as he understotad it; indeed he wag bound to approve of it, because it was in 4eneral conformable to those ideas Which had for softe nine bestopassing in his 'mind, and which he Qt . it 'to be his 'ditty to suggest t o His WI jesty's Ministers, rather' than bang forward any distinct weitsure himself. He was the more inclined to ap. . prove of this measure, becaute he was confirmed in 4t thinking, that it was-to this measure,' adddd to the hest exertion of die best regdiar force that we could obtain, that we must 'took, in order to put the security of this Country-out of- all 'doubt Of question. latver beds very 4L 1 Xi04 3 'Von these Obit& . , . 'AO en tea Vetyahieely "tato a dist;tisaion of the 'degree ' ofalanget that Was to be apprehended from' Invasion, becauSe, when he Considered the importance of _the stake for which we had to contend, he knew no degree of insurance, no. Calculation of timbal - Alit. e; no ground , of moral hope, that would acquit him in his owo mind, or Would acquit any man in-the. dnty which he owed to hiuiself and his Country at :this important crisis,. if lie omitted any of the rational • .a n d .pretlicable means of defence. This was not only a queer ion of National 'Defence,. calculated to animate , Patriotiim into anion, but of iodividital danger, that must stimulate' even Cowardice into exertion. Upon this ground, he would never enter into a calculation of the probability of dangetawhile any thing could be done to. render the Couatry more safe, More especiiilly if he sakv that the means' of:reducing that safety •to an .absolute certainty (as' • far as depended upon human means), might be pro : duced by our own exertions, without imposing,aey new or great Nit-then. upon.the people, 9r_hy intro, dicing any principle.unknoWn" to the Constitution`'; but merely resorting to that, principle which was a fundamental, principle of all civil society, essential to the existence of all rationafgovernments, and which formed a striking feature of the wisdom of the Bri. tish Constitution in its earliest rudiments. When this was within our reach, when, we were making proV sion for efforts that we were bound to make, and if by preparation before.hand it could make it more easy to the individual and more safe to the Country, -he for one would not hesitate, if compulsion was 'feces: algae, have - recourse to compulsion, though, : with the opinion hefted of the people of this. , Courary,:he could • not believe that it would be necessary to have .recourse to it. He for one certainly - would not oppose it, if the•eircunistatices required it, nor did .he believe that his Right Hon. - Friend, unless he' misunderstood him, 11 to oppose. that - kind of compulsion ; . but above all,' he .- hoped there could be no °battalion to arming the Crown with those powers which were inherent to the interest, to the preroga tive, and which were vested' in the Crown already.. He felt, therefore, that neither upon 'the extent of the danger, nor upon the principle- of compulsion, was it necessary to say much : 'he was, however, of opinion, that though the probabilities were-various in every stage in which we might defeat the enter:, prizes of the Enemy, yet he could not feel that our safety was insured with every degree of certainty, if it .was left merely to our means of Naval De. fence, high as he thought, and no man .in existence thought higher of our Naval Force, nor if the -Enemy should be able to die& a landing upon shores, could he be content to leave it to the excl.- - tion of our Regular Army, or upon . the exertions of the mass of the People, if they could be brought to ea, in one point `(which was impossible) ; he could not, lie said, rely upon the general exertion of ti,e People, unless they had •been previously prepa r ed and trained for the exert i ons w hi ch they would be called upon to make. The 'great objeef th e ref ore , would be, to consider • that. the (lenge' r with which we were threatened, required every degree of Mival defehee that We could make, every degree of Mill. tary , FOrce that we could procure (and in his opinion Parliament had given ahe IVEriister . the means of making great and powerful exertions)hr carrying the Reghlar Army to its greatest extent. The next thing , t 0 required would be, the means of preparing to the utmost the 'persons to be enrolled under this measure, by training the individuals or • the Co'rn. menders, by concerting the modes ea assembling, by the allotment of the 'district, by arranging the . means Of bending their reinforcements. with re. gulatity and dispatch to the :vulnerable parts of our Frontiers, to those Counties , which contained our great Naval Arsenals, -and to those remote in which assistance migh t h e parts of the Kingd a am requited.: When once- he saw that the sense of the COunary was raised to these exertioni—when once he saw the sense of the Nation was determined, as , ' n o doubt it would' be by the example. an'tl authority of Parliament; when once he saw. the People .roused ft) a sense of ;their danger, and determined• to ensure their own safety ; he would then-wish to exaggerate the danger no longer; btrt at the same time he per- 4 feeily agreed with his Right Hon. Friend that a sense of security founded upon 'supineness. and inacliv ity, was theainly mode to consign this Country to ruin; It was not enough that M imsters shOuld feel the deo, : , ger themselves, nor that thershouldaA upon it (stip. posing even that they 144 atiednpon it as vigorously and as early as they might have done, which lie wished to God, he could' believe), they ehould let the Country sec. its, danger, and should carry it with them in the meesurea they adopted. grit of the things.he most applauded in this measure was, that it ,Spoke a language which could not be mistaken, because it was impossible that , any Government could propose a measure of this kind, oiliest it was sensible of the crisis With which it was threatened, ;old in which they were deeply responsible for the Sc.. euriry of a Great and Mighty Empire. When all this had been accomplished, there reMained.ana. titer, and a more pleasing part of their duty to per. form (though it was orie that Might not to be in dulged in too soon.) Besides pointingaiut the ex. tent of the danger which threatened the Country, •if it negleded to prepare itself against the at tack, it would not be exciting dehisive hopes, . or:false consolatiOn, to tell them that, with due . -preparation, they might loiik :with ' petted confidence to their security. He trusted and hoped, because he knew the feelings and senti ments of his Right Hon. Friend, that. he would be as desirous as he (Mr. PITT) •was, if he saw the spirit of the Country once roused, to hold out the :animating and cheering prospect of the certainty of security, as the fruit the vigorous, exertions of the Country. He certainly Wll3 not one of those who wished to lull the Country into a false sense off safety, but he could not hoe wish the: people to. turn their eyes to that part of the •pitture'.whickwas most congenial with their 'feelings, and most consonant with their eharatter, but at the . same time he hoped they would not turn away from the danger because they were afraid to meet it ; he hoped they would not turn away from the warning. vain that told thiiit of their danger, : because it mig truths which it would be klisag ree 3ble to, hear.t tell them h, He would not; he could -'not,. -helicve it of the people of England. As little could he suppose, that when they were once fully.avrtzed of their situation., that • they would not' fted in their .s • `.., 'milli lit:till SAidi tad' itteN Mat If "de: Tended nprin trier:hell-es' to maki' the Aappt base, and to extinguish all grounds of apprehelisitina iog tinder the firmness of Parliament, and the v ip,tsur and proMptness of the Rimini ve Govern. nent: He must therefore suppose that the Noble ,Loid 'mistook the meaning of his Right Hon. friend (Mr. WINDH Am's) arguments, when he sup. -posed them ealttilated to inspire despondency. The language of despondency could not be listened to, it could' nbt be said for a moment that' millions of the free inhabitanti of this COuntry could sink be. forea detachment of Frenchmen, for notwithstand ing the great population of France, it could only he a detachment of them that could Come in contatt .with such a Country as this. 'There was one differencein the way in which he and the Noble Lord understood his Right Honourable Friend the Noble Lord supposed him to say that with all Our exertiOni" there would be still ground forappre. hension ; he believed his Right Hon. Friend said, that with-all out of exertions the danger might be great. If he could suppose that there was that want of eicertiona little as he was inclined to a gltioniy habit of mind, he confessed he could not then• resist' it any more than his Right Hon. Friend. He differed-however - from his Right Hon. 'Friend a little; he could riot believe that there was any supineness, arty abatement in the ardour of English men, which was so natural to the grear mass of,the People of this Country, but hedid believe that up to •the present moment, they hnd not been tailed upon,' their feelings had not been properly roused, their exertions had not been regulated,. pointed, or di. reCled. But the, proceedings of this day appeared auspicious TO . his mind, as it gave reason to hope, chat when the real State-of the Country was under. stood, when it was known that . Parliarnent approved of this measureohere would not be one Englishman from one corner of the Country to the other, 'who would think of . offating an excuse after hearing this solemn admonition, after (if .he might so express himself). hearing the Voice of his Country in an hour -of . peril calling for assistance. Ile who would . shrink from this call, thus publicly, chili ats leMnly made, must be , aetteted by feelings for whielathere *Was no-excuse, or by motives whic!l he • dare not avow: There wag one part of • the sehjea. Which he did not Wiaito.,enlarge upon, and which he could not .pass over altogether. if the measure was now necessary; it was necessary from a view of the extent of the means of the:Enemy, and in order to sbew.that this.aueasure was not necessary belote, it must be proved that there Were grounds of ap. prehension now from the power of the Enemy which thereivere not :bdare. He could not conceive that te was -a sufficient answer to tell 'him 'thet the , Re s gularnirCe Of the Country was greater now than it was at- the commencement of a 'farrier war ; Gut What did he learn from that He learned that even in a 'period of Peace thetimtingent danger which threatened the Country appeared to tees so great, as to justify them in incurring ant nor mous expense, and in keeping up a greater Regular Army than ever had been kept up in rime of Peace, or, ,except in some cases, in time 'of War. He could not conceive' this could fornishany reason fur being more cards', or, ,as it was pow termed, more sea. dual in bringing for ward measures of Defence against the gigantic of *tirts. which ft •__e• would make in time of War. The intentions, the designs, the preparations of the Enemy, we . had not learnt from any recent intelligence about 'the , colleeting of Tr o ops, 'or the building of Boats ; all this was known at well at the time of the Declaration of War as it was known now. There was nothing new in the state of Europe (he wished to Goi he could say there was i o new, generally speak, big, in the state of Europe), but in the'point ut view in which be was speaking; there certainly was nothing new in the state of the Continent. It had ce rta i n ly given new proofs of the manStrous ambition of France and of the supineness of the di& ten t Powers, but he saw nothing in its situation Which would now lead to a different conclusion, from thit which► . might have. been 'formed at the - beginning of 'tlie War, The measure was now - necegsary, but it was not shewn to be. necessary uptin•grounds which were not long ago known. • Why could nor this measure have accompanied,' Or even preceded some measures wilich had bash` 'previously brought for. warts, though they were not yet brought into ac. . tion ? As to telling him that these measures would do better One after another, and that it was neces. nary to take time to digest an At of Parliament, it was aboird ; if there was Cline for this kind of leisnie, there was no necessity for the Bail, because if there was one measure more tharaanother which requireaadisspatch . in its proposal and execution, it was- - the piesent one. It would take some time after. the Bill was pas * sed before the people 'could rea ceiae.the necessary inattuaion, before they could adopt the necessary means far their own defence. coofessed he Was not so anxious to in. quire what time had ' been already hist as to take care. that -no time' theta be list in future, his only °hied was to make the best use of the time that was left. ' What interval might elapse before the Eneiny made 'an attempt he could nut tell ; no interval could be totviong to make tint Security per. feet ; hut the interval might be so shOrt, that no ex. ertioo we could make could be too great.' This brought hind rn,..inention one circumstance which op.' peared to* him. of the greatest importance, and' that was, that some p owe ; should he-gitten to 'the Lords Lieutenant and Deputy Lieutenants, , adapted to thd periods of the 'harvest, which were different in dif. lutist Counties, and to the different periods of TO_ dotty in different Districts, to make use of the first interval that should present itself, ,not to drill the People_ for one or two days in the week, but for 14 or 20 days together., ,Another thing which he thooeN might be altered, oho* it :certainly was a to ater of detail, was, , that she distance of three miles, which was the limit beyond which Men were not to go to' exercise, was not sufficient- A` 'stout English Peasant would not, he was~ note, think s s aay thing of walking - six miles for that .eurpose and back again 4 they often . went further for'aCricket Match. , This brought hiM to anotbets point, .in which he.thoughr hit Right Hon. Friend had a little misunderstood the Bill. 1t certainly was not liable to- the objection of having recourse to compulsion, if the same ohjed:coUld be' obtuitied by voluntary service. lie was. 'not only j of OPitilob f 1 t all th ii jets of die till thight ht: obtained'by iroltititary ttrvice, but that It might be 'obtained in a shriller tint than by the operations i f aE the Bill. 'f - k was strongly inclined to hope that the Sitting of Parliament was near its close, nor bet.ause Ise wished himself 'for any relaxation in his ditty in attending. (because he certainly had less reason to complain than most other Gentlemen) but because he knew how important it was that the great Nobility, the leading Gentry of every Colin.. .ty, should be at their pct., to encourage by their - .presence, anine3te by their example, to instruft by their advice. He.kne* how much more dila an Ad of Parliament would have ifaccompanied by living instances of the spirit they wished to in. spire, by living examples of condud which it was wished they should pursue. On that account he was anxious, that the whole of the me a su r e s h ou ld h e ' brought into as shirt a space as possible, and was glad that the detail of the execution of it was left' to the Crown—But if Parliament was on the point' of separating, as he hoped it was, whatever ground.. of reliance they might have upon the people,. yet' Parliament (in whom the authority of the Country was . , vested, and who were bound to think for the People of England) would not do their duty, if they se.: . .parated without declaring, that unless the :Volun. , tary Force to a sufficient amount was Obtained, that 'a power should be given to compel persons to under.. .go that degree. of trtining, which - alone could ten. tier their services useful in case of aaual invasione—e; This was not a new power vested in His Majesty, is was his'ancient and meinubted prerogative to cart' upon them to serve in eases. of emergency ; but their sery ices could be of no use, unless they had been previously ,trairied and drilled, so as to give theta aeompetent knowledge of the use of Arms. There was one thing which had not been stated, but he supposedit would of course form part of the Bill, which was, that if a nun was called from his: la. boor, that he would receive a remuneration ; anti if that was the cage, he really could see .no hard. ship in the measure, because it could make very little difference to a man, whether he was learning his e.xercise.and handling.a musket,. or whether he' was using a spade, or tollowing the plough. No, inconvenience, - or at least none compared with the,. 'objeCt to be attained, .could attend the Verson so, called out, though i t certainly would create some , 'degree of trouble to the Lieutenants and- Lieutenants ; but he 3lititlld .degrade the.chlraeter' and, hurt the feelings-of Englishmen, a he could' for a moment suppose that any question of personal' inconvenience could he put in competition whit the execution of a measure upon which depe ra le.l . ; 'the existence, the, honour, and the very name of Ee i e... , lishmen.. It could not be necessary to urge any ars. , gurnents upon the,subjea. There was nor, he was sure, a heart in' England that could for a moment object to it, and he could norfer a moment enter.' tain a doubt of the cordial concurrence, of the seal,..of the emulous aaivity 0 . 411 ranks of people in England upon this eyelid occasion'. But let :Ministers. name the day,' let them make the .forms as short as pos.' sible, they ought to be shorter than the system of. ballotaing. But .even within the shortest , possible . time in whieli.this Aft could be carried into exe. cutiuq, they alight have a voluntary force, who would' comply, rAtikahe regulations contained in this .. - Aft, who would' march to any part 'of the kingdom, who would join any corps 'or any army' with which they might receive direttions to cm. body themselves. Ha volunteer foete such as this coold' be obtained, he would not have Ministers wait for' Offers to come in, they ought' to instrtia the Lord Lieutenant. - to convey the sense of Par liament to the People through all the various Chan.° nels of cotnmunication which they possess ; to, make their agents go round every parish in the same week, in the same day if possible, to go from door to door, and receive the answer of every man, to knowewhether he would join in the Volun. tier Service i-Isse these means, in a week or a fort. night armost, Government would know how far the Volunteer force could be carried ; and such was his opinion of the spirit of the people, that they Would find their Legislative provisions carried into eifea; If after this public notice there should be folind' one Parish or one County that was an exception to the general feeling,' this Bill would provide a re . medy to that exception, though he was convinced that such a one would nut be found ; he was there fore of opinion, that Parliament 'would be unpar.. donable if they did, nor leave Government armed, with a power t&take care of the people, if any case' :oecurred in which the people were not willing to take: care of themselves: There was but one topic more upon which he wished- to . say a word ; he meant the danger that was apprehended of arming the People. Theze might be great danger from such a measure at some .petiods, and at all times, perhaps, some, danger,,though perhaps never leis than at the present moment. If there was to btu partial ann. ing, if tumultitary- bedies, of men were allowed to array themselves, then . indeed there might he dan. ,ger, but this plied was diffused' generally' over the whole Kingdom, and if it included the distill's:tied,' it included them only in the 'proportion they bore' to the general mass of. the population. Instead• therefore of being,an Opening to danger, it would be a remedy against it. He' 'unfortunately knew' . of the danger that was to he apprehended trom.. it at. one time, but that was beCailse there' were then dangerous associations; and from the torus anti regularity that. was then . given to treason and sedi. there was a danger that the diseffected part of the people might then be. formed into an Firth}( great - in proportion:Jo , the Army that was then on foot.' But that 'fortunately was not now the case. •If the means were now given .t o the Crown to embcidy these men under Officers chosen - by the Crown, it would proance a fume ,animated by - every .seiitiment that b , longed to the stock from which they were taken,'brin e mg with Ithens the ..satne ZCai against Foreign.and Domestic .Enemies, the same veneration for the English Con. ,stitution, and the 'same resolution to perietuAte its biessiop,..in die in its . defence, that had always at - 1.. mated the hearts of Englishmen,And never more than ,at this moment. 11? hoped, however, there would be nopermissiun to persons to choose their own Officers, because the power and4nerogatives of the Cr ow a must he preserved entire, the people ought not to have: false notions instilled into theta of their rights, but should be taught to look up to those who had law.