The Sun. — London, England, 1803-08-12 00:00:00

documents which he might have, which were open' to the eye of any individual ; but he protested that as to Ireland he saw nothing in this Motion which . tended to be of any advantage whatever. . The pos , ible effea of agreeing to it was that of un ' hinging the minds of the people at a time , when it was most essential they should be undisturbed by • political disquisitions. .Indeed, he had no difficulty of saying, that Motions Upon the foundation of al lodged grievances should never be assented to, un less those who state the, grievances are provided •wiih . inime remedy fur them, such a remedy as may • at least seem to he expedient to be adopted. He rev/lied this as a general maxim,' that when any pt , ison roinpliiined of an evil, he should produce the' reified) , he proposed to apply to it ; so that the ffluse may have an opportunity of deciding upon . the evil and the proposed remedy together. This he had no difficulty in laying down as a general doc trine, applicable to all species of complaints made . for the mismanagement of politiCal affairs ; hut if circumstances ever made a Motion particularly un fit, they had. that effea at the present moment ; in supporiing which assertion, he need poly revert to the present situation of our affairs abroad . and at home,' and those things which we had lately wit. nessed with regard to Ireland; for without en. tering into the question, whether Ireland has been more or less well or ill governed lately, or how it was governed, or what may have been the causes which . have proanced certain effeas, or what the remedies may be, he did not believe that the motion now titf)re the lou‘e would have any good effra, for he did nu t believe that those which were stated to be the cause of the evils of Ireland had any con. nection with' them, nor did lie believe that some of the remedies which had been. mentioned would have the effect of remedying these evir. Be that as it.might„ the qtiesiion now with _every man in Great. Britain, and indeed every, part of this United Empire, was this—What is best to be done tit this moment, to oppose the foreign Foe,. and to put an end to the machinations of domestic Enemies and. Traitors ? the result of deliberating on that question ought to be, and must be, to exercise, firinly and steadily,. all the power and energy of the EMpire, not by looking back and asking in. gerliet.s men to see whether they, could not find something that might possibly have been better if troll ,acted over again ; he was confident such a course Of proceeding could produce no good whatever, but' might he the cause of great evil. He was of opi nion that the energy ut the United Empire should .be called forth at this period,; that the whole of its strength should be exerted to support the Con. stitution of the Country in Church and State, as 1w law established, and against the Enemies of the Empire, foreign and domestic, at the present crisis; and he would ask the House, whether, under all the circumstances by which we were surrounded; this motion was likely, in the least degree, to pro. duce that effea ? on the contrary, he thought it pregnant with evil. Mr. W. ELLIOT declared that he was so far from ,thinking the Motion now before the House ' an improper one, that if it had not been determined some time to be brought forward by the Han. Gen. tittnao who made it,- he should have 'thought it his duty to have made it himself. As to the informa. Lion now asked for, he was astonished that• Mini. sters themselves had not laid it befere the House ; be was astonished that they had permitted so much time to pass without 'making some further commu. nication to the House .than they had made on the sobjekt of Ireland. It:might be asked of him, if this was his Opinion, why was he silent when His MaieStyls Message upon that subjea came to the tiou+e to which he would observe, that he was not pre , ,ent when that soak place ; when he heard it he was much apdeil by it, and. particularly as it relved to the fate of the late Lord KILWARDNST, on whose charader he pronoUnced an handsome pa. oegyrie. He ohherved, however, that he thought that that - horrid event, attocious as it. was, arose out of same sudden affray, and was no part of . a systematic rebellion, for then he hail not read the Proclamation which was issued on that 'oe. cation. , Ile observed that Ministers had mis., cot:dueled themselves towards :the. House upon this sobjc6, and said, that if he had been in the House at the Lyme of the discussion of it, he sh old have c,oicurred in the•sentiment of his Right, I'h Friend (Mr. Witinomst), not that he should have opposed the measure which the House' adopted, because that appeared to be necessary, but h e s h ou ld have coot: omit in the sentiments expressed by his Right Hon; Friend, that there never was a Thea.ure of that narure before adopted by• the House., upon such scanty information; for Martial La'N had never before been ad opted by Parliament. wi; boat ample information of mattrr on which it was foupd, col,---Fie n e verlbeleis would have adopted Martial Law, he had said so already, but he should have &he so from a conviction of the necessity of the thing, not becan,e Ministers had done their duty in laying proper information before the House, nor upon the statement of the Proclamation.—He said there • milli a gnat difference between the present case and that on , which , - Parliament had formerly adopted Martial Law in Ireland, for then they had the reports of two ,`,ecret Committees, stating much matter on which the 1 - 1011 , C 141 , 1 justified in proceeding, but in the present .case, IVlittisttis would not give to the Howe idorniation. They might say they had not•perfed informatioo at that time .to give, and therefore they could not give what they had rot, but they pnasessedinformation now, and they ought to give it. He maintained, that Ministers had dispfayiel great ignorance on this subjea; or t h ey • had been criminal—He must presume that Ministers had informati l on upon this sohjqt, or he must pute to them a systematic delusion towards that House and the Public. There was, in the most fa. vourable way of viewing the matter, a culpable re. missness on the part of the Executive Government: in Ireland—He believed that Government had infor mation upon the subjed of the Coriipiracy—Now, if their ioformation was Byer so defeCtive, :he thought they had been remiss, for in 4 Country like Ireland, there woold have been no harm in a little Preclit tion ; but he tunderstood, that a wetk before the Ate. bfilion broke our, some men had been wounded, and there wars a discovery of some gunrowdet ;. and nit theYritLyi' the day 1)10 , :e thtsConspirack happened to be detected, Goveenment received informa. tion, stating that thediSaffeCled tsartrhad betrayed symptoms of great agitation—That : they, had left their work in parties ; which was a signal of Insnr. I ration ; and above all that men were coming from various parts of the Country to Du : now this ought to have put the Executive Government fin their go ird. Fie did not say that no preparation was made against this Insurredion, but he said it was., an inadequate preparation Ministers were stir . . prised by what bad taken place, but he was not.— . , He had received a letter from a person not likely to form any opinion adverse to Government without good evidence, stating, that the Tenops in the Bai_ racks did not come for a considerable time after the , assault was commenced,; and it was quelled by the Vo. lunteer Corps called « the. Liberty Rangers."—The Garrison was not prepsted, the. Troops of the Line were not informed in time. He spoke from informati. on which satisfied him of culpable negligenCe of the Executive Government, for which reason he should be glad to see their Dispatches, to know how the filets stood. He wouldfamiliarite this case by example. Suppose Government here had information of a Com , spiracy against London, and that they had learnt, the People in Kent and Surrey had left their work, and were coming to London in parties; would not 'Government here be thought remiss if it suffered the Metropolis to be surprized as Dublin was ? He be lieved that the indignation. of the whole Town would be directed against them. Why, then, he would ask, did we not feel the same sentiment with regard to Dublin ? Why shoiild we neglect Ireland.? Could Ireland feel. that Government had done its duty with regard to that part of the UniteaKing. dom ? Could the Member's of that House lay their hands upon their hearts and say that they had done their duty, without calling for full information upon this sub j ai , Some months ago the CHAN. CELE:OR of the EXCHEQUER proposed a provi. sion tor the Prince of Wales, and he said the. time was particularly proper for granting it, be. cause a time of profound Peace, and he na , de an impression upon the House, and on the Royal Ex. change, that there was a probability of the Peace being of long duration ; but in a month afterwards' a Message came stating armaments which i indicated the danger of an Invasion, So that at one day Allis great and prosperoUs Country sylts represented by Ministers as being free front danger, and then in a month it was represented as being in danger of In vasion, This he called a misrepresentation of the state of things, and for which - Ministers were re. sponsiple, or they. were culpably negligent in nut procuring the necessary information. It' he awas told of any great effea being produced, he naturally , looked for a great cause fur it : but when he looked at the correspondence between His Majesty's Ministers and the Enedy, and found that Military Spies were deteded in Ireland in the beginning of the Peace, - under the name of Commercial Commissioners, he would haVe thought that the vigilance of Ministers had been turned to Ireland. He could not account for this 8611 of surprise on Ministers with regard to Irelatid ; a lulling spell 'seemed. to have over. spread their faculties. They seem to have been almost petrified or rendered calloOs. ' He s hould trouble the. House no More' upon the' present occa. sion, for ,varions, reasons ; but he did think it ought to know the present circumstances of Ireland. Ile saw things in the Newspapers sun which the Hoo,e ought to have information. He had heard of the Declaration of the Rebels. We ought to knoW the l i movements in ahe.North. Ina wo r d, he protested .against the separationunder this ignorance of affairs. Lord CASTLREAGRiIaid he should submit to the House a very few words on the.subied now be fore it'. The Speech of the Hoe. Gentleman who brought this matter forward was Ala general na ture, and embraced tooicka much too large for the present mode of,di.cussing, for each of them would demand . a separate discu ss i o n b e f ore j ustice cou ld be ; done it so that he should have little indeed to say if his HonaFriend (Mr. ELL toT) had not brought forward some topicks of which it was his duty to' take some notice. lie thought the view his I tan. Friend took of this matter, divided itself into two points ;--one," that the Executive Government were bound to give more information on the Af. fairs of Ireland than they had given relative to the late melancholy occasion.—Where his Ho. nourable Friend formed the 'principle 'or states. man-like Motive fur giving that information, he was at a loss to know ; as little was the ap. plication for this informationlounded on precedent in ,the pradice of the, Executive Government of Ireland'; and he did not think that the precedents to'be foundia the pradice of the Executive Govern. ment were wholly 'unworthy Of notice upon This occasion—He spoke of the Executive Governments of Lord CAMDEN and Lord CORNWALL ; no Go. ,vernment of which he had ever known the History was placed' in l a situation more difficult and critical, and extricated itself oot of its difficulties so well as those ache two Noble Lords whose names he had just mentioned, but certainlyneither ot' these two Govern. meats .furnished 'a precedent to support the Mo tion now before the .House. It was indeed true,. that after the Rebellion', when all the Treason was put down, when individuals were brought 'to jus tice, Government came to Parliament 'with all the information they possessed, but not until 'all the in lividuals accused of being concerted in ilte Re. hellion had,beep brought to justice ; this was after the danger was' over,' ntat like the present, where the tlangei was, pending, and therefore how a than of reasoning powers and enlightend Mind Could eiaaatthis Mut t on to-14 agteed to, by which a full vieW,wai to be given ,of all that Government knew With relied to danger, he was at a loss, since all reasoning was against it, 'andho precedent for it,— Thre was manifeatly in this 'Motion great danger, if the House;comply with it, for if Govennuent brought fortvaid the information now called for, the atatementivinahl present to thalouse a pan ial account, tipoti which they would not endeavour to . judge, because they could . . not judge fairly ; it was therefore impossible that this information should be produced without either not .being relizil, u t p,m air, iif a rrliad npoo, .wonlkcontiuce to an unfair decision. 'The 'loose wouldoherefore not require, because it would not determine, upon infaraiatiou that was impeafeet, anti he trusted he had oow 6;116- fled his Hutt. Friend hiMself; that this unto iry was, 'improper at the present nymeot. As to whit •xvits formerly, done his Hon, Friend had no grouad, for this Motian by way of reference to former Noma. ings. On the former occasion the House had aned nn his ,Motion for the renewal of Martial Law in Ireland ; the ground on which he 'urged lhat-tatb jea was, .the pressing or immeliace (I. lnger that way felt at that time, but he rested - it on the foundation of a precautionary system. There were no argil. mews at that time on the sithjed of the, produ4tion of all information in the hands of Government ; the argument then was an argument upon the inconve, nience of delay, and Parliament thought they best discharged their duty ; by granting that . poWer to Government for a short_ period, and 'leaving the Matter to be afterwards reconsidered by Parlia.. ment when the time should expire. The Pio clathation in Ireland declared that Treason had. Appeared in the open streets of Dublin, and if Parliament believed the fad, thii was a founda tion for their proceeding to provide for the Safety of that Country by declaring Martial Law ; for certainly in many cases, Parliament had afted on .the notoriety of an evil, without any formal or specific communication from the Executive Govern ment ; and therefore, he ,trusted, his Hon. Friend would no longer persist in censuring Government for bringing forward the measure of Martial Law, without•laying more information before ParliaMent upon this occasion. Another p.m of the charge to. day was, the criminality of the Irish G•vernmen for not cOunteraeling the mea,ures of the Rebels :-- Upon this his Lordship said, he begged. to be UR. derstood as not designing to impn!e to any one a.y improper views, yet he th , ught it Was one to ite coruni, that however Willing giceculive Goverement might be to discuss all m burrs relative to their conduct, vet it was due to dec..rum; not to take it up collaterally or 'accidentally, but that question of their ended should he made one large general question, capable of embracing the whole• ot that conduCt. Now. his Honourable F; had accused the Government Irelarid for n t taking measures of precaution ; he difreted front his Honourable Friend upon that subjed life amount of the daily guaril'in Dublin was very greet. As to the. Gat. iiion not being ready to turn out, immediately in. the streets of Dublin—nothing appeared to make that-a reasonable expedazion in itself at the time t—a body canceled, in that part of the town which was the soene of outrage, and in which unfortunately . fell a venerable charter who s se loss wps much to be de plored, but it' was a thing that might have hap. pened to any other person who ,had become conspicimos for his virtue,. and the übjed ,of hatred to the Assassins ; but if this event of the mot. 'der of this elevated person in the open street had not happened, the Insurredion not have 'been considered in the serious light in which it . was considered in consequence 'of that event—lt was a Rebellion•to be sure, for the men were in arms committing a rebellious at ; but they were soon dispersed ; and there wits no proof what. ever that Dublin was not suffieienily guarded ;. and he would observe that if- the Hon. Gentleman made this a charge againit His Majesty's Government in Ireland, .he • would only observe that this was not the proper course to be taken for that putpose ; but ' certainly there was nothing in the .nature of the Rebellion in Thomas-street' that demanded more force than the Government brought against the Rebels.— there was no 'proof that the arrange .' 'ilts made by Government on that occasion were not adequate for the purpose of proteding the City. • —He had gone through the twopoints which had been stated against His Majesty's Government in' Irelared, namely, want of information from. Govern ment to the House, under the pr esent circumstances, and negligence, in not providing against the miss chief. BAs to the general observatio ns m a de by. the- Hon. Gentleman, he went. into much too wide a field for him to follow on the present occasion,, and' therefore he should decline it for the present • but as to the censure which had be en cast on t h e ' Ext.. cutive G o sCernment or Parliament of I re f an d, he - couid not, consisiently with the sense he ,had of his duty, sit silent. Be considered that the Parliament of Ireland bad-shewn itself as jealous'of Public Li. berty a 3 any body of men had ever been, under cir. cumstances similar to theirs. He observed, that the Clause which was inserted in an.Ati of Parliament kit the proiedion of the Magistrates who had done their duty in Suppressing , the Rebellion; was a very just and wise one. In'some cases there had been ex cess of authority, and Adkins were brought by pee. sons who had suffered by such excesses. Juries adopt. eel in sitme casei a wrong rule of decision, which was, by calling on the Defendant in Such.Adions to shew the cause of his conduct, -and find a verdift against him, if he could . nnt do so to their satisfadion. This introduced a' complication of haaishipattpon - Ma; gistrates in many instances,, from the very nature of the business in which they were engaged, from the death of witnesses, and a 'thousand other cit. cumstances incident to a' RebelliOn ; and many Ma. istrates who, had tided with the purest love of their Lountry, might have been ruined ; P ar li ament therefore enaded, th,ieinstead of calling on the De. fendant in sucleadions, to skew that h e aded bona file, the CoUrt should call on the Plaintif prove the malui aniiims'of the Defendant before a Verdia should pass against him, and this his Lordship maintained was an ad 'of justice. The Natite , Lord - then proceeded to deiced the GavernMent; of. Lord CAMDIIN and Lord C-ioitalwAitAs in Ire. land, which he- praised hig)tly, and.observed that :they had been so far from being rigorous as some had imagined, that they Were remarkable inf lenity ;' that the Military Power had 'lever' been ern p oyc.i , except in cases where the . Civil Poser had been tried in vain : that if there could be any deft.ct im puted to them, it arose from too novit disposition to l en i t y ; but he was gl id it Lei so happened, .becaue in Ireland it was_ most es,iential that the current of public opinicin shOuld go with Govern.. ment, and - that could not he the case wiless tigor,ais measures were a good deal delayed .; and speaksin,,,, in the, abstrate, rigorous measures had been La) et . 1.1 • - t too long,. bur considering all circumstances was' wise. As to outrages, there had been many on bath sides, - but there never was a Rebellion without them, He had no doubt that the Hon. Gentleman Who brought this subject forWird pes,,u,ded that the publiC interest deneteded that theselonies shOuld be raked 01 , , and all the evils of the . late Reb e lli on brought forth anew ; .but'he differed toin'that HOU.' Gentl em a n on that subjed. Th. des:ress of itetoni . 1 which ha en statei to have been genera l, was -'s by no me 'the case : the statements of the lustre al Irani; w ell as the disposition to Rebellio had been' y much exaggerated : he would venture ffir to am, Power in Europe had made more rapid I sfi t t a frl d ie'el ti en o s n :' e ne . :I li ah a n s ati : l i d' e a r tg s u ep ; li t a t e i rr e t i a l lofilat that ri el i ) r i s liße p sr rC t i f sit t e r tE i l t im y eji a 'ai n rs ; its. happin were increasing , still very i that the ' ason which had lately been found there, and whit ad been so much lamented, arose from ota. jeCts (litre, it from those which the Hon. Gentleman rapidly, arid recommerjed remedies fax Most of the topics touched uon by the .Hon. Gentleman were .of deli- Cue discrsion, on which,, from the nature of things, it was neeasonable to expect uniformity of opinions. ''''d thertfore thelast day of a Session of Parliament was but it adapted tblheir discussion, and that the Pot*" esecially, when the Honourable Gentleman dal noostate, that in his Own mind, - the prop si tion which should follow the discussion was made UP ; but even if he had, . whit ptadical means were ..., there, .at this instant, .of carrying that mpositiori ~ into effed. The HOnoUrabie Gctltlelllial felt 'inn- self justified in bringing this suhjed forward before . rile very few, Gentlemen whl had the °poor on i (Y,,a . hearin g t h e di scuss i on o f i t , or-of lisrentog td his statement. Ile had no doUbt bur, the I lonoua /Ale Gentleman had satisfied lsis mint that he was performing a public duty by qtkiag this Come, but the Noble Laid sail he thooglo, it avas calculated rather to distrad the Countra , w talk, of grievant:CS without proving 1 % hat Oa y sped.. fivallyare, where thy are tole toiled, ..,r what the temedies fir them are a ; and that at a : itill'• o. lico the --. Vigour the. energy, the wealth, the hoe ur of the .. Empire are and ought to be embaih..a in the great cantest in which we are engaged—Whatever ques tions may arise on the minute p ints w ilia itvg! , t be calculated to difrose 'in time still greater we:a 1 : 11 and happiness in Italy d, [rimy t f them disptoahle in theory, and on which a great diveraity t l ° pillion prevailed, and on which a disquisition would. he long and Jedious, because it tons be mioutet and, therefore, it should be sufferidlo sleep Ou; i1 one great previous question, namely, whether the British EMpire shall retain its Wealth, its I lonour, and its Happiness, or the whole shall be laid at the foot of a eirrciless Foe? That was the question nay for us to consider and to ad upon, o :a1 of O'. eliing on general points of supp,sed defect , . in ; or GoVent- mein, which was well calculated to oppose us to the Enemy, and to preierve our Glory. Mr. Et LIOT explained: , Ms. IV/NUHAM said, the N. ble Lord who haa 'first spoken (Lord HAWK ESBUlt.y) had objected to the proposed Motion, that this was probably the last day of the Session ; that there was a thin at tendance,- and no time to deliberate upon the sub" jed. So far as the objections applied, they were of considerable weight ; but those Objettions ap• plied much more to the speech of the Hon. Gentle. man (Mt. IitarCHINSON) than to the:Motion. Thar speech contained a variety of general topics resoe'! l " ing which he must give a general opinion. l ite Mite of Ireland, improved as it had been ofla tes years, wanted a great deal" more to bring it to l'e r ' fedion. To use medical terms, that Country was ailliaed with a chronic complaint, attended win!, violent paroxysms r the former requir e d t h e oh' fr -operation of a remedy, whilst the latter, wsosaatVeY, occurred, required -an immediate application : ara lout of the embarrassment which these circumstances occasioned 'arose the difficulty of treating that Coon. try in a proper way.' He thought, at the same time, that speeches like those of the Hon. Gentl e ,' man (Mr. HUTCH INSON) tentred to operate gowit inasmuch as they skewed a disposition in the 'Le gislature to attend to those °Netts more irorne• diately conneded with the wellareof Iceland. The objedions of the other Noble Lord (Lord Caoratie. itsaon) more immediately applied to the qu6tic il * - Thar Noble 'Lord had - urged the general danger. which would result from the information called for being laid before Parliament : the degree of danger to result depended upon Government, u.s 'they migh t N uk o k ,o c t s h L e ic r h in communication : a is s k t e h d e y fo . r t h t zg o h t s hpotriti)(Pl he considered considered compatible with the publi c interest a" j f safety. With reference to this Stilled, as much 1";, ask l h eet l i' n ; t i v id m la u t chle ciY t 'i l f y,kn ?.ul eta cif he a idn : ei : rar t YrL ff " Trs of lea heis': i 'l'.' ; url , upon Parliamentary grounds ? They knew, it wa " 'true, that the King's Proclamiiion. stated the c%" i:t h e r ne n theoety's rebellious insurreCtion,. but what colter infotmation upon the subject was before-Path: llo°C suspended the Habeas. Corpus AO iiii . , re ; land, and enaded the Martial Law Bull ? lf t"' InstirreCtion was merely a sudden thing, why s''''' " strong measures I if it -was permanent, why not i'" formation I Upon the discussion of the 'lYless 3 g e relative to that subject, he was charged with OH' ing out for deity, but what he proposed was jib e( to defer the coniideration•of it till the it :tc it 114 ; according to the established usage of Parliametirf '' a t. to return an Address, coOtaining general dec l Th a H !ion of the sentiments of that ou,e, and Ole n / la tiring i n the - Bill after a short interval. The 1"1, a Lord h a d a ll u d e d' to a M essage brought dowel t c ' i ' er Irish Parliame nt , M a y 22 , 1.79 8, b ut t h er e was t ', l i.. rt.', materi a l difF :renc e, that it was stated that . 'lnsurrection 'then expected might break our t11 ',1;,•:. very night; and the whole.of t his transaction I° ‘ 34 , place in t:.e vety - City w here the InsuireClion W r it expedetl to break out, And consequently wli cre i ,l o ,` ' la ere more competent to- judge of the sups;"'' ' t.ca we' possibly could be in this Ceuntry. Z- o"" l ; ( o - . Message relative - .to sending the Militia to Irell ie 'sonic delay t.,uk place, in Compliance W ith t o ) , Usages of, the liont.e ; and witloresped to 11 '"'IY I L ra _Pet, he recollected that an Min. Gentlemin i 1 SHERIDAN) not only oPposetil delay, but °V 1'51 ,, :t the measure when it was brought forward• b e , a l, stated .that the Irish Government were surr,: z i ( raf and chat the Capital was within an ace of' b e ' - i t. l: ,i :n k ,,,,, e ib i be i t ' t o l et t , : i s tiat s ir :: ei s u s i G o t ( i n e o t t n ; :u t t ir: i t i l the tiet e Le a t et te n r ,d s l e y nt ie fr f o t ul ic i lir:. the m issue il nl yof asked,tli e c u o i n w t e n s t w v ia g r ol g d ro b ::. , , , i J oi e , stated this ai'd it had been denied that the L' the veroment ot Ireland were surprized, . and tbst ilca Capital was in danger : if they could not a l'• lie o brwg o upon this. subj :a, the best way would 1 - ihere ' in a special verdid, and state fads. Were wog ea ' not powder mills, and , other preraz4o oll s l ' .. I