The Sun. — London, England, 1803-05-07 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PA RLLIMENT HOUSE OF PEERS. FRI 'AY, MAY 6. Coy us rr, were finally !ard relative to the Scotch Appeal, iviAe.razasoN and tithe v. I7LANNAY. After which their LordshipSLffirmed the Decree Of the Scotch Court. The various B lls before the House were forwarded in their respective s ages. The order being read tor the commitment of the Insolvent Debtors' Bill, The Earl of MOI RA rose and spoke at consider ' able length in support of the Bill. [We regret that a great preis of temporarily interesting matter precludes us from giving - a statement of his Lordship's impressive speech. or those very able and argumentative ones , of Lord ELLENBOROLIGH and the LORD Cu. , . NeLLLoit, which followed.] The Noble Earl chiefly argued upon general prin. copies, km equal grounds of justice as of genuine . humanity, in favour of an amelioration of the pre. sent :System of the Debtors Laws in rhiS Country. He contended, that according to the present praUice, that which in other cases she Law regarded as punishment' for a •Conviaed Crirninal,,was'infikled upon the unfortuNkteDebtor.. He was strongly dis. posed to discriminate between the Fraudulent and the Unfortunate Debtor . ; and he was sorry to say, that perhaps oni.lialf of the Debtors now confined, yvould, according to hit system, he deemed to pu. nishment for fraud. He instanced 11 25 persons &livered, who wererelieved.by the Sc'cety for the Relief of Personsconfined for Small Debts, at the • timall sum of zl. 75. 2d. per head, as a proof of the erroneous speculation' upon which Creditors, under the present system, proceeded, He . cooe/uded by moving, that the Bill, instead of no'w, should be committed for Thursday next. Lord ELLENEO ROUGH answered the Noble Earl with great ability aed effed :• he contended, among other strong points, th-a- the number of two who suffered ; were very few in comparison of the myriads who. were relieved and maintained under the present system of giving credit, ,He pointed out the ill effeds of frequently passing Bills of Insol vency—numbers took 'advantage of it. He said, that in theterm before, ago persons rushed into cxecut io,u; Under the contemplation' of the Aft—and a2o more swan after followed them, in the hope of being , white:;tuathedhy the MI in question. Were the present Laws of Debtor'and Creditor to heaub. versed, instead of i too persons in confinement, there would be / 1000 persons in a state of starva. tion. The leading arguments were enlarged noon, and strongly enkrced by the LORD CHANCELLOR in an excellent speech. • Lords MOIRA and EL LEND/ROUGH afterwards spoke severally in explanation. • The. Question upon the original Motion was then put, and the space below the Bar was cleared for a Division, That proceediog,however, we under. stand, did not take place ; ~and, that while the Strangers were excluded,•a Proposition was made and agreed to by •their Loidships, tantamount to the rejection of the Bill for the present Session. Immediately on the re-admission of strangers, Lord PELHAM rose, and adverted to the Notice given by a Noble Earl on a former evening, which, as he understood it, was, that unless some Commu nication were made respecting the present state of the Negotiation v. ith the Government of Prance, on or before Monday next, he, the Noble Load, should feel it his duty to' call the attention of the Hope to the subject. Under these circumstances, when he considered the respeelahle quarter from which such notification was made, and the respell generally due to the House, he felt it incumbent on him to come forward and make a Communication to their LordshieS, as far Is the information re.: ceived by His N . l.ijesty Minister!, relaove to the. subject, would enable hip, to do. 1.4 whate ver light the afFair appeared to himself, he was at the same time aware that he was about to make a Com. munication a that kind, which would not entirely; remove that degree of anxious suspense [so we' un. derstooti his t ordshiol which the House and the Country had felt since things were in their present state. I.lte fad which he had to communicate was, that the F rench Ambassador had this day applied at the Foreign Office 'for Passports, in order to avail himself of them, as soon as he should Understand Ltird Wu ITWORTH was on his return to this Coun. try. This circumstance, he observed, required no comment ; 'the thing spoke for itself. ; ,. In addition .to this - fad, he had to state to the HoUse, that or. dens bad been given to Lord WHITWORTH to try all means to bring the discussion to a speedy as well as a satisfadory issue ; arid in case he could nut sec ceed.in the latter alietnative, not to stay at Paris beyond a'certain day: Farther than:. this he was unable to state : o.vliether Lord Wait - tsaro l cm 1 14 ,,t done so, or not, be could not say--.!No comin tin i, cation had been yet received from Lord Wit IT WORTH, whether he had brought the Negotiation •to such a conclusion as would authorize his farther stay, or whether he may .not-already louse left p,.. rib. When Ministers should 4e informed of these circumstances, they certainly shOuld, as in cases of such magnitude ought -to be the praCtice, be Inade known with as little delay as possible to the House. Before he eat , down,- he intended to move their L'ordships to adjourn 'till Moriday 1 but lie was ready to admit, that, under t he p resent e ircum . stances, he should not propose to adjourn over to_ morrow, were he not then prepared to state, that it was utterly impossible that such communications could arrive fr , nn Lord Wit ITWORTti would en. able His Majesty's confidential Servants to deliyer a regular Measago upon the subjed, *prior to Muti ng. At the seine time, he begged leave t o ü b. serve, that heentertained a Confident exl, tation that on ,Munday ilex! His Majesty's Servants would be able to make a krmal communication on the ac. tual situation of aff-irs. • His. Lordship concluded by moving, " That. this House 014 ;, d till Monday." The Earl bf DAR IVLEY expreitiecl convie. tion, , that under the,present circumstances of the CountrY,, it was the duty of the F-louse to sit to. morrow, notwithstanding what his Nolde Friend had said respeeline; • the inability of ilirristcrs to make a formal communication to 'Parliament before Monday. He adverted to the dis:graee,nl occue.: renee of yesterday i t t the Stock Exchange, which he seemed to think mt;itcd the stteution or railitt, ment. The circumstances n' the Country loudly called for the interference of Patliament. The Negotiation had been protraeleti for two months; and it was their duty tohesitate,no longer in coming forward. Under these impressions, he should certainly come forward himself, agreeably to 'the notice he had given, unless some other Lord, more competent than himself, should undertake the task, and not only call the attention, but take the sense of the House upon the consideration, whether it was not the duty of their Lordships to step be tween the Government and the Country, and inter pose with their advice, at a period of such critical and momentous importance.' Earl SPENCER observed, he could' not forbear pressing on the attention of their Lordships the very critical situation in which the Country then stood-: they: were,. perhaps, within a few hours of being in a state of hostility. He was surprised at a propo. sal to adjourn over to.morrow—it was their duty to he at their poststheir Lordships must be aware that many unforeseen circumstances may arise even in that short interval—things unforeseen by Mini sters themselves. He thought it proper the House shotild'sit to-morrow : their Lordships must redol led the unprecedented forbearance of Parliament for some time pass, and the: period was at length.ae. rived, in which the Country had a right to look to it for its interference. Under these impteisions, he begged leave to move to amend the Noble Se, eretary of State's Motion, by substituting To.irtor iomdfor. Monday. The LORD CHANCELLOR quitted the Wool. sack, and observed upon the impropriety of the strong terms used by a Noble Lord, ,before he could possibly know what the attual situation of Affairs. were, or what measures had been adopted t by Go. vernment. Wiih respell to the motives of the Noble Earl, in coming forward, he could 'not pos sibly consider them as otherwise titan pure; but he felt himself called upon to oppose the Amendment, and 'among other reasons, from his conviCtion that the rational and well-informed part of the Public Would:not,refuse full credit to the statement of his Noble Friend, who had expressly said, that it was utterly impossible that any Communication could be made from the Throne, which could be usefully considered in that House with a reference to the present situation of the Country. Under these considerations he doubted not the House would not have much hesitation in foregoing the form of sitting there to-morrow.' The Earl of DARNLEY spoke shortly in expla_ . nation, and contended that the delays which had taken place with resped ,to the differences with' France, were highly injurious to the Country ; However,' y this he meant to throw no aspersion or blame upon • any particular quarter, as lie was not sufficiently informed of the circumstances. The Earl of CARLISLE strongly supported the Amendment for sitting ao.morrow, - -He adverted to the increased responsibility, of Ministers in conse. quence of their coliduCi for several weeks past. He thought the Noble. Earl right 'in not abandoning his intention conditionally to come , forward, not. withstanding what 'had so recently fallen ftom Mi. nisters. Many possible cases might arise for a fair curiosity on the part of the Public, and which it would be proper to gratify. Another Messenger may shortly arrive who may bring intelligence whether or not Lord WHITWORTH had removed from Paris ; that alone was not a trifling subject. He thought that the sense of the House should be recurred to on the question. 'The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the question, when a division took . place, on which there ap. peared, For sitting to.morrow,* Against it, . Majority Adjourned till Monday. 29 2 I HOUSE OF COMMONS. • FRIDAY; MAY 6. A new Writ was ordered for. Boston, in the room of Mr. F vusi.L, whose Eleelion had been declared void. A Message was received tram the Lor,ls,staring, - that their Lordships had agreed to the Bank of IICIAIId Restrietion and to several private Bills. STATE CIF THE NEGOTIATION. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that before he moved, that the' HOuse should at its rising, adjourn'to Monday neit, he thought it right to state, that he expeded on that day to be authorised to make a Communication from tits MA. j SST Y .to that House. Under the present circum stances, be felt it incumbent upon him to state, that General ANDREOSSY, the French Ambassador, had 'this Slay applied at the Foreign Office for Pass. ports, with a view to return to France, with an in. tent to avail himself of them as soon as he should receive information that Lord WHlTwormi was 'on his return to this Country, whieli• lie seemed evidently to exped. Lord Wurrw6a-nt had re. ceived orders, in ease he' should nut be able to bring the Discussion to a satisfadory arrangement, to leave Paris on a certain day. 'No account had yet been received of his Lordship's departure having taken place, but- he thought it right not to disguise from the House, that he believed that his Lordship had quitted Paris. Alle House, he trusted, would feel ttk: propriety of his Abstaining from saying any inlre at present ; he should, therefOre, move, That the. House should, at its rising 'this day, adjourn to Monday next." Mi. FOX said, he did not rise to speak on this truly Avful subject—he would nor, at this moment, say any thing on it in general, bur he could not help thinking, if things were cdrite to that situation i n which the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had stated them to be,-he thought it was possible for him to make a Communication to the House, to.morrow. He did not say he could, b ut on that supposition, he was sure the House would not think there was any reason. for losing a single day, in a moment, (he hoped not a decisive one), but in some degree of suspense, when the discussion of that. House might not only be of great import ance, but combined with what might take place in 2+ hours, might have an indescribable cad.. Lard H K ICY *aid he did not con. oeive that any Official Co4;aynicattan on the puiot s alluded to, could consistently with what bad b t ., !j , the regular prattiCe in like cIISCS, be laid liew:re:the finilsc tY-Murrows ..141!' 004 41 C o 4l4l4lnic4tioa , regularly be made in this particular, without the knowledge that Lord WHITWokTH had arrived in this Country, which might, perhaps, not he known in the course of tb-morrow. With respect to what might he stated'Pf the inconvenience arising from the adjournment, he could not conceive what incon venience could, arise from this• short delay. If, unfortunately, this business should take• that course, which, unhappily, there was too much reason to apprehend, His Majesty .would be advised to in form the House o f t h at f a d, an d Hi s M a j esty ' s Communication would be accompanied with the declaration, that he h a d ordered t h e 'diff erent P a . pers and Documents upon the subject to be laid be fore the :House, so as to enable the House, and the Public, tofortn a judgment of the state of affairs between .the two Countries, and of the propriety or impropriety of the conduit, of His Majesty's Go vernment—until that Communication was made, which would be made with alt reasonable, nay, he would say, all possible dispatch, the House could not have the question before, it, so•as to be able to come to a just determination: he should say fur ther, that this proposed delay could not answer any bad purpose whatever. He wished 'only to state, that His Majesty's Ministers would not delay one moment in advising His Majesty to make a Com munication as soon as thiogs were in a state to au. thorise and warrant such Communication, and His Majesty's Ministers would be'disposed to give to the House every information to enable the House to fOrm a judgment on the aaual , state of the diffe. rence subsisting betw e e n t h e two Countries. Mr. GkEY said, .he really thought this was an occasion on which it was not becoming in the House to trust to the King's Ministers, but that they 'hold continue toassemble without any delay, And to decide for themselves, at least until they heard a better reason than they had heard to-night from the Noble Lord who spoke' last, and he hoped the House ,would concur in the Motion which he should undoubtedly make, that • the House should meet to-morrow. The Noble Lord•professed that it was improbable, he would not say impossible, but • he thought it improbable t h at L or d W HITWORTH• would arrive in time to make a Communication to the House to.morrow, and the Right Hon. Gentleman said, there was every reason ro apprehend that unfor tunate intelligence would soon arrive in this Coon. try. —The House knew nothing as to the particular day, nor had they any authentic information when Lord Wit rrworm had orders, in case he did not receive a .satisfaaory answer, to quit Paris ; but there was no improbability whatever that Lord Wit TWORi H may arrive in the course of this slay or to.motrow, so as to enable His Majesty, in. compliance with the wishes •of the House mid the Public, to make a ComMunication on this most im portant public occasion---the most important and tremendous that ever occurred, and in which there was perhaps a more severe responsibility than ever attached to any Ministers in this Country. in such a state of things, the House should not suffer the delay of a single hour in looking for information, nor should the Right Hon. Gentleman delay for one hour after he was able,, in making the Cointnisnica. tion he had so often promised, and which he had lately regretted he had been obliged to with.lcold so long. The Noble Lnrd thought. there would he no disadvantage from this short delay he, on the contrary, said, that every hour of delay might he attended with incalculable disadvantage, 'when the House and the Public were waiting with suspense and apprehension, and while the House was kept from gi v. . ing advice to His Majesty, suc h as to them might • seem prudent in this awful moment : under such ctr : cuinstances the delay ()lone hour might be a great dis advantage to this Conntry, it was said,that when the Communication Caine, a day must be appointed for its consideration ; undoubtedly a day must be ap poioted for that most serious consideration; but Wit Communication should come to.morrow, the House would save two days by not adjourning until Mon day : in the mean time, Ministers might be enabled to lay before the Hou s e the• documents to which they' had alluded, for he hoped they had 'not been so remise, as not to he prepared to lay on the Table of the House, that information on which it was necessary that the ropinion of the House' should be taken.' Under these circumstances, be did not think the House ought,to agree to the adjournment now proposed, when information might possibly be laid on the Table immediately, and no time • should be allowed to elapse that could he avoided, . without giving this communication; lie therefore moved, That instead of " Monday next," the word " co-morrow" be inserted. • • The Question being put, Mr. CANNING said,, he. wished to distinguish, very shortly, the grounds on which, if this question came to a division, he shoUld certainty vote.for the earlier period. With some of the• arguments of the "Hon. Gentleman, who moved the amendment he did not agree ; he did not expect,. neither did he think it reasonable to expett' that GovernMent should, by to. morrow, be prepared with information to be laid be. fore the House such as the Hon,Gentleman bad stated. He had no such expeetation. He sbould vote That the House should meet to-morrOW, even if it should only Meet to adjourn again, and he should do it on this plain ground---because at such a moment it did not become the. House of Commons ,to be absen t from its post,' for it was by,no mea n s certain, though. Ministers might not have the information to give which it was necessary for the House ultimately to re. ceive, that they might not have some communication to Make in addition to what the H ouse h a d h ear d this day. VlT_hai' was the statemck of the Right Hon. Gentleman I He concluded, that-my Lord Warr- WORTH had quitted Paris ; but the circumstances of this conclusion (not inference) did prove there was information wanting which might arrive be t ween t lus -and the meeting of the House tomorrow, tvhich would enable the Right Hon. Gentleman to come with a -certainty, on that of which at pre sent he had only a conjeCture. Now, would any man say (witnessing what was passing) that certain inforthation might not:arrive -to,morrow I He knew there were other modes of 'conveying *information to the Public ; to that he would reply, that he knew of no mode so correct and proper to convey information to the Public on such a subject as through the • medium of Parliament. Those wh o thought there were better modes of conveying in t to lottoition to the 4 qua; nun such an invariant oc. j casino,- than through the medium of mood:neat, would tote for thiS delay ; but as it was posSible that tomorrow might add certainty to the doubtlid intelligence of this day—as so much information might btgained in 24.1 tours, he did not s ee how any. Gentlem\n could give away the chance of being the channel d the first communication to this country, upon so interesting a .subject. It was not with desire Of living more haste to the discussion of the ' House , e to a_se m , o o rr r o s , si v well a ou b l e d lie l f ,r t e l c ia i country, own the real subjed to be discusse d here- , i t ,i t t h a e te me i e n t f i o n r g int f io tl n te after, that re. should vote for the House meeting to.. morrow, tut he did it because he thought the. House of Ct'inmons ought to sympathize with the country ; ti n t the House of Commons ought not . to be giving itelf a holiday, when all the people is the country, veie in a state of anxiety and agi dt ration. The SECR' : :TARY at WAR observed , t hat the Hon. Gentlem an h a d st ated the louse should meet tomorrow,(tat they might have the chan ce of in. formation, wli c l t he did not himself think pr obable. Now he desiod the House to consider its own dignity, He lidnot with the graviw of Parliament to sit ' on an unusual day, v ad mitted by the H o nourable Gentleman " it was t ithiut any think ,irobabi it probability, as was .consistent W ho spoke . lair, of, having any thing laid before it on which the House could a d, ant i that merely because the French Ambassador might have asked for a Pass port, for that was all the information befor e ' the House at present. He asked, if it was becom in g' . the dignity of the House of Commons to agree t' an unusual Sitting, which would be the case it they, sat on Saturday, merely because the 'Ambassador of France had demanded a Passport P He was ready to admit, that if there was'a probability of any prac tical good likely to be produced by the House sitting tomorrow, the House ought not to agree to the adjournment proposed by his Right Hon' Friend, but should adopt the amendment of the Honourable Gentleman ; but he saw tio chance Of that. --Suppose Lord WH I TWO RTH had left Paris on Tuesday, or, which he believed, on Wednesday, it must he rementbered, that with so large a Suituite, he could hardly reach London bytiLnorroW. the British Parliament to sit on that account, when no practical good purpose could be accomplished by their so doing ? Nu Gentleman would now stand up in the House, and say he could enter into the discussion of this subject to.morrow P That WAS impossible. When proper information was before the House, let the question be discussed with that coolness and dignity which became the House, but to-morrow any discussion of the matter would be obviously improper. It would be no service the dignity of that House,, to the interests of 1 10 Country, or of Europe. Mr. CANNING said, his Right Hon. Friend misunderstood hitn. He distinctly said, he did not expel papers to be laid before the Hciuse to. m orrow' to enable it to judge of the condo& of Government , but he had observed that the Right Him. Gentleman, having stated his information as far as it we 0 4 day, and on which he bad himself made a conclntusil it was probable that twenty-hours might l' wduc s certainty.He thought that statement alone ‘cvo' sufficient inducement, io she present circ"''' n ec t of this Country, for the House of Commons: 0 n' to-morrow, Ur. WHITBREAD said, he rose for the Pg.' I lie pose of expressing his surprise at ' the sree‘ l ' ii ; 1 i to ldopE ; at the Right Hon. SECRETARY at WAR, Mid li': "•-i' , r rt entirely (torn him as to the mode the House ""1 , ,_ thought the House of Commons could not ` lct • , more dignified part than t 4 wait for any common!' cation that might be. made by the . Rigi! t i t . present period : he confessed I : Gentleman on this subject. The Right Ho"1 — A ; CRETARY at WAtt told the House, they woo l" . " ; . ad consistently with its dignity it it sat to.m°,.. roW, merely as he tak es have demanded a passport. " Lightly pressed some because the French Ambas3ador illig"! it," said Mr. WHITBREAD, " it fills me wi ' llaw‘ ful apprehension." Mr. POLE CAKEW called to Order, an d ex'. this discussion. Upon which there 0/43 a . prodig i ` nis cry of CI:4;r! Chair ! apprehension of the comequences of The SPEAKER desired that im rd s caking t i p o et, I the Hon. Memb er Strangers should withdr aw. would state the j oint of Cid er 1`) which he ativettea. Mr. POLlf; C /MEW said, he meant the ing Order, that Stana- Strangers were ordered to withdraw accordingly, which they did imdiatel • rds °I After which the me Debate y. proceeded upwa three hours, and the I-Inuse divided, IS; 95 For Adjourning to Monday, OnAogaurinrest: it , readmission to the Gallery,' House hoer il ouc i ts inti p ietoeg & etilea A dadi ` p / i : bn : ge ei S :nlot r ec t d t o s ne attendfit a on il e 't tt l tar ysb n; t o alt le l i m, l 0.1 Outer itiw' lol . aw e s i ,,l l , r)ceer erits Dunfermlin Eledion, should be brought to the flat • of the House to receive a teprimand for his per conduft, and then be discharged. On the question being put by t h e Sr Ent ER, Mr. MIRST said, it was never his wish (0 nish any offender placed as James Trotter was b l e ; fore the House, with extreme severity , but td thought that the offence which bad beeni commit° by the p‘erson in question,- was of great naritude-,4 and deserved the utmost unishment the - P'4' e t coolditiflid on him : the off e nce he had eoin tniid le was worse than perjury, as his evidence mig ht been.essential to the eleEtion, which might aa' been improperly obtained or lust, in consequencel. `his wilful absence. There•could be no..picasuF e punishing any offender, but it was po li t ically ne; ccssary for she benefit of example. the tf°r A thought the House ought to confine the offeett‘,.' t greater length of time, not' only to punish him, r. to deiti others from committing a similar oire"c`.; On these grounds he should vote a gainst jao s Trotter being discharged. Mr. BIS. ES - FORD said a few worth.- th Sir ROBERT BUXIVN said, he _ 1! e. House use all . the humanity possib le to the 1: soner, but he did not consider the punishment ready inflifted on him, was equal t o the offence 110 had committed. The COANCELLOR. of, the, EXCIA.LI4I.