The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-23 00:00:00

PREVENTION OF SMOKE. Mr. lIINDLEY begged to ask the Hon. Member for Lymington (Mr. Mackinnon), as. Chairman of the Com mittee appointed to inquire. respecting the nuisance of smoke in - towns, whether it was intended to found any measure upon the Report of that Committee? Mr. MACKINNON said that the Committee's Report recommended that a Bill should be passed• on the subject, but the Government declined to introduce such a mea sure; and, therefore, he;as Chairman of the Committee, would feel it, his duty to propose a Bill. • • THE ARRESTS IN. THE 76TH REGIMENT. Mi. GILL rose, pursuant to notice, with a view to ob viate an erroneeus impression produced, by the state ment of the Secretary-at-War on the 12th instant, to call the attention of the House to the detention of Captain Brewster' of the 76th regiment, under arrest for' eight months, without any charge being made against him, and to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether he had any ob jection to communicate to the House the other from the Horse Guards for that officer's relief and admonition? On a former occasion the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer (Sir It Hardinge) was reported to have said as these officers had violated their duty they had bees put under arrest, and they would be kept .under, arrest for a short time longer. That statement was incorrect but he was sure the inaccuracy did -note attach' to the Officer (Sir Henry Hardinge), whom everybody in that House, and out of it, knew to be 'incapable' of stating anything but what was fully borne out by acts. The effect of such - inaccuracy might, however, be" injurious to the.. character of Captain Brewster, and he (Mr. Gill) therefore mentioned the sub ject, that, should any imputation rest upon him, it might be removed. The' two officers .referred to were or dered under arrest by another officer, who was present at some proceeding • which• had taken place, and who had subsequently communicated to the commanding 'officer what had' taken' 'place: • Now he (Mr. Gill) found; by 'the articles of war, that no officer was liable to arrest, except for an offence committed, and that it was the duty of the party putting - an Officer under' arrest immediately to take steps for instituting 'an inquiry. When he stated to the House. that Captain Brewster had not beep gUilty of any offence. whatever, he thought he was not asking too much when he tried to have' an imputation , removed from his cha racter. After being five months under arrest, Captain Brewster wrote a letter to his commanding officer, begging it might be forwarded to the Major-General in command of the district, and which in!reated to know under what charge he was labouring, and stated' that if any offence had been committed by him, Ike' would, cheerfully' submit to stick punishment as . the' Commander-in-Chief might think fit. S u b seq U en ily two . letters were written by General Brewster—one of them to his Grace the Duke of -Wellington, 'and the other to Lord Fitzroy. Somerset. . The Noble Duke, in his reply to General Brewster, said he was aware his son was under arrest, and as certain regulations Were being pre pared 'on the subject of duelling, itwasintended that these officers . should be made subject to Ahem when completed. Notwithstanding these letters, 'these, two officers were continued under arrest three months longer. He complained, on the part of these gentlemen,' of their having suffered the* long arrest they had done, and that arrest without some, explanation from the Right Hon. Baronet might injure the character. of Captain Brewster. Although the articles of war stated that no officer should be kept under arrest for more than eight days before he was tried, that course had not been adopted in the present case. He thought the House would agree with him 'that this severe punishment was uncalled for. He wished to know whether the Right Hon. Baronet, had' any objeCtion to' communicate to the loose a copy of the order of the .Horse Guards for the liberation of theie gentlemen, and the admonition given to them ? Sir H. HARDINGE had a strong objection to produce the papers—first, because it would form a bad precedent ; and secondly, because the proceedings took place under a private warrant. Captain Brewster had violated mi litary discipline, by immediately accepting a challenge from a young and inexperienced officer. Be would frankly confess, as to the other point, that there was .no , imputation on the character of Captain BreWster. DROPPED ORISERS. The dropped Orders of yesterdiy Were 'then disposedof. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. On the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into Committee on the Factories Bill being read, Lord JOHN. RUSSELL suggested the propriety of entering on the paper the Orders of the Day which were to have precedence. Sir R. PEEL agreed w ith th e sugges ti on of 'the Noble Lord, and would take care that it should be at tended to. FACTORIES BILL. On the Order of the Day being read fur the House resolving itself into Committee on the Factories Bill, Mr. WILSON PATTEN presented a petition signed by twenty-twe of the principal firms of Preston, stating that the - petitioners had heard with. the utmost alarm that the House had come to a resolution limiting the hours of labour to ten, and praying the Rouse not to' consent to such an enactment. Lord ASHLEY presented ninety-ong petitions from various districts in the West Riding of Yorkshire, i n favour of A ten hours' dins°. Mr. FIELDEN presented a petition in favour of limiting the hours of labour. The SPEAKER then left`the Chair, and the House re solved itseltinto Committee on the Bill. On clause 2 being proposed, Lord ASHLEY said that ho would postpone the amendment of which he had given notice on this clause, and would raise the discussion on the Bth clause, as it would be more convenient. Mr. T. EGEItTON then rime to move the omission of the word " silk " from line 31. He said that those who were engaged in the silk manufacture did not de sire to be exempt from legi s l a ti on on the subject, but they . did not wish to have their interests huddled up _in the legislation' which affected othr- .iers. —e The SPEAKER, accompanied by several Members, then read various tabular statements of the condition of the proceeded to the other House. On his return, silk trade, and endeavoured to show that ft would be The SPEAKER announced that the Royal Assent had necessary to establish' the relay system in this branch of been given to several Bills, (for which.see Lords' report). manufacture, as - there was not a sufficient number of Dr. DOW RING withdrew the motion which he had children in some places to supply the demand of the silk on the paper for the 2d of April, relative to our treaty trade. .With respect to education, he was happy to say that Of commerce with the Ottoman empire. • there existed throughout the various-districts a. great Colonel WOOD gave notice that, on going into Com- disPoiition, .on. the pert of -tho Muter", .to 311444 facill.< ties [for education, and an equally great desire on the part of the children and their parents, to, avail them selves of those facilities. . Sir J. GRAHAM said he could assure his Hon. Friend that the caution which he had enjoined with respect to dealing with these great 'manufacturing in terests, was a caution which, as far as he was concerned, was altogether unnecessary ; for he was anxious to give the best consideration. to the subject under discussion. He admitted that in past legislation silk had been treated differently from any other branch of the staple manufactures. The mo tion of his Honourable Friend, as it now stood, would, if .carried, take silk altogether • out. of 'the operation of the present Bill. It was necessary to call the atten tion of his Hon. Friend to- the portion of the children employed in the ' silk manufacture. Ile thought that that if any portion of this legislation was more de fensible than another, it was that which referred to the children engaged 'in this manufacture. The po verty of. the , parents, notwithstanding' their natural affections, led them to overwork their children, in order to obtain the - largest possible amount from their labour. The legislation on this subject at the commencement of the present session was first confined to apprentices, but was afterwards extended to young children. 'At the present moment, in the silk trade generally, there was no limitation whatever with respect to the age at which children might be employed. They might be employed as early as , five, six, or seven years of age. There was a limitation with respect to time ; they could not be employed above ten-hours, between the time when they first entered the factories and•thirteen years of age. There was another distinctiOn, that the children employed in silk did not require the certificate of education- which was necessary •in other cases. He thought it of great importance, with respect to both these points, that 'the children employed in the silk trade should be brought :under the_ ge neral operation of the . Act, - and this was the opinion formed by the Committee which sat in 1841. He (Sir J..Grahana) would now briefly state -the-course he pro Posed to adopt with the portions of the Bill affect ing this portion of our industry. He must resist the motion of his Rom' Friend, which would 'take the silk trade entirely out of the operation of 'the Bill. 'ln the 75th clause were provisions which dealt particularly with the silk, trade. In' legislating . this.subject,they , must bear in mind - the large proportion which the children employed' bore to the adults employed—it was no less than.as four to one. He should propose to omit certain parts in the clause referred to; nod then to enact thatilo children from eight to eleven years old should be employed in the silk manufacture more than six hours and a half ; but that from eleven tOithirteen they might be employed for ten honia - in Winding and throwing'; and then at the - age of . thirteen, th e y sh ou ld return Under the general provisions of the Bill . as' it now stood. By the arrangement which he proposed to the House; they would, for the ' sio . tinp, impose a limit in regard to children, and which he (Sir-J. Gra ham) certainly thought to. - he necessary. At the present moment - there was no , such- limit. In this • manner ' he was willing to - hope the just demands of the people - engaged in 'the. silk trade would be meta When they came to' the 75th clause of the Bill he should propose to remit the limi tation as to children under, II years - of age, and intro duce' words to'carry . out 'the arrangement he-now sub mitted, ' which •he sincerely trusted' would, upon the whole, be . considered satisfactory to the, various inte rests involved 'in this great and important branch of our trade. Mr: ;LABOUCHERE said: that he observed, with some apprehension, i the - Bill which had been n troduced by her Majesty's ' Government ~ on ' the subject' of' . factories, 'beeause . he- -- believed' that it was 4he .first- time that the silk manufactUrers had been put on the same fo o ting as , - cotton manufacturers. 'These' cbiisfderations operated So Stronglr upon the late GOvernment, that they brought in. tvvo•Bills-s-one with respect to_ silk, and_ the other with respect to cotton manufactures—and he- confessed upon the whole that. - he thought it would facilitate .the progress of the Bill if the Government . adopted a similar course. He' thought, however ; after •what the Right Ifonceira,ble Baronet had' stated thtd - the. objection urged by the'silk manufacttirers had been fairly met t and he believed. : that his proposition would he satisfactory to 'the trade. He hoped; therefore, that no °Wade would be thrown . 'in the.way,of the Government. It, was not.his wish to see ; the silk trade. excluded from the operation of a Fac tory Bill. , ; The - silk manufacturers had the _largest amount of children employed in their factories. Mr. GRIM,SDITCH thought that upon the whole the plan of the Government would be satisfactory: • Sir . G. STRICKLAND said that, 'in answer to those who contended that it was ' iresiossible to. carry on the silk-manufacture if - the hoPrs o f lab ou r were limited, he Would observe that 'the same 'argument had been used when it had been proposed to limit the hours, of labour in the cotton manufactories.: Experience, ,however, had taught them a different _lesson.. The hours of infant labour had -been limited, andnone of the inconveniences 1 which bad .been foretold had 'occurred. "The, general ,'impression among . the Members of the Committee of 1841 Was, that the silklmafiefacturers• had made Out no case for exemption from the operation saf the Bill.- Thsra were more children employed in the . manufacture of silk than in any other. branch of manufactures, and, there- - fore, they 'stood in need of greater Protection. The room's in which they Worked were hot, and the mature of the labour was the. same as the labour in , the cottosi. manufacture. Those children were standing on their legs for fourteen hours a day, and many of them walked twenty miles in the course of the day. He could not but recollect.the evidence of a surgeon, who was against any restrictions on labour ; he stated that he considered the exercise they took was healthy. 'He was asked if he had children of hisnsvn? He answered, yes. He was then asked if he forced his own children to take such exercise? llikanswer was that they were not labourers. Why no human being could say that 'a child of fourteen years of. age ought to be forced toperform such herculean labour, and he was sorry that the .Right Hon. Baronet had consented to do as he had done.- He was sorry that he.oonfinedthe Mays, to ehildren between theages .bf six and eleven. This was departing from the prin ciple Of-the Bill. - -He strongly urged the COmmittee not hastily to make a distinction between silk, and cotton, and other manufactures. ' . ' ' . . ... - Mr. BANKES said if the Hon. lleniber or Cheshire' persisted in his amendnient he Would support it. , The persons engaged in the manufacture of silk elaimed no exemption from the protection given: to those engaged in other Israttelies.• . But they said that the work in the silk factories was so different from that in the cotton and woollen mills, 'that the regulations' that'applied to others would notapply to them. ' Mr. STRUTT said he' did. not think the Hon Ba-' ronet could have much ref res h e d hi s memo ry by read-, ing the 'report before . he spoke on the subject, so com-: pletely 'had' he misrepresented the .evidence.—(Hear, bear.) .t With regard t o , 'th e -temperature in the silk; • facto ries, so far from its being the case that it was very "high in them, the fact was, that the work could not be Litrriedi.on If the .temperature was not kept cool.— (Hear, - hear.) The Hon. Baronet then alluded to what had been said of a surgeon, who happened to be a con-• stituent-of- his (Me Strutt's)nwn. It Was trite that he had stated that the children ran from fifteen to twenty. miles. But this occurred in the case Of working at! sowing silk—a process in which there was no machinery whatever, and which was something , like that of rope- Making.—(Hear, hear.) This was not a ease -which . could be reached by legislatien.--(Hear, hear.) .The Hon. Baronet then said. that the children 'worked for thirteen er fourteen hours; but in the town of• Derby there Was not a single mill which worked' more than ten hours.—(Bear, bear.) He believed that, on the whole, some of the silk manufacturers would prefer being .left out of the Bill altogether. But 'he thoughtthey would be satisfied with the suggestion of the , Right Hon. Ba ronet, and he therefore hoped his Hon. Friend would.; not preis his ameodment: • . : ~• Mr. T. EGERTON said that, after the suggestion of the Right Honourable Baronet, he would not press his amendment. • . . The amendment was then withdrawn, and the c l aw _ * agreed 'to. ' Clauses 3,4, 5, and 8, were agreed to without discus sion. On clause 7 being proposed,' . , , . Mr. ALDAN' ' said that the woollen mannfaetureis . . , . - objected to the seventh clause. • • ' Mr. SHEPHERD said he wished ,to . correct - a mis representation which had occurred in reference to what he had, said the other night. He wished now to state that in the town of Dome; children were altogether ex cluded 'from the factories: The men and women and young persons usually worked twelve hours, and it would be very injurious to their interests if they were prevented from so - d6ihg. ' Mr. VERNON mill' said the whole argument really turned upon the words no fethile of any age," and, to these words, and to the principle embodied in them, he entirely objected. He thought it was a very dangerous principle to introduce that of restricting the labeup.of adult males or females in manufactories. The Souse had, on one or two occasions, decided on inter- fering with the labour of, the helpless. They had inter fered between the parent and the child, but that was because the •parents made use of ,the labour of their children in 'alnanner• to seriously iejtire their, health, and sometimes'eyen to destroy life. But he had' heard no argument brotight forward why men and women above the age of twenty-one years should not be all Owed to work, as at present in factories.. He, had given his vote with great_pleasure to the propositiOn of his.,Noble Friend opposite (Lord Ashley), but they were now lay ing down a very impertant- principle--interfering with, and ,restraining the labour of adults :in _'factories, and which, if carried into operation, Might very seriously prejudice the beSt . interests of this country; - If it were persevered in, he should certainly divide the House on, the subject.—,(Hear, hear.) Sir JAMES G RAHAM must frankly express his concurrence in what had fallen frcrn the Right HOD: Gentleman who had .just sat down, regarding the im portance of the words of the clause alluded to by him; and he further agreed with him in bel•eving that -the present was the first time that restraint was sought-to be imposed on adult labour in factories. But he was' under -the impression that female labour, under, peculiar cir cumstances, required restraint.' For %dance, Married women, under the control of their huSbands ;. children. under the control of their rarents ; and. Wenieri in a de.' licate condition. At present there , were frequent in stances, he believed, where the class of persons he. had enumerated worked in a manner inconsistent with their health, and it was necessary the Legislature should in terfere. He 'hoped the House would ,accede to the proposition. After a few words from. Sir W. CLAy 7 ,, v i l i c h.,i rere not audible, the clause wa,s agreed to. On clause 8 being proposed, , lord ASHLEY rose to move as anT"aittendment, 'that th6) . 'Word " ten" be substituted . j , for the word " twelve," and in the event "Of this a*ie.ndment being carried, to add a prcirioo, to the effect that the restriction of the hours of lab Our to On in the day shall only take effect plc the lstof October, 111461:.and that, draufthe lst of October nest until the Ist of October, station of life in Liverpool. He believed that the operatives —members of his own constituency—in Bethnal-green were much worse off than the operatives in Lar i ee.sh*. He .dreaded that this -measure of the Noble Lord, in stead of realising all the benefits which he anticipated, would tend to aggravate a great many of those evivs. He (Sir. W. Clay) could only say that he had bestowed considerable attention upon the matter, and he would bar his - share of the' responsibility, by expressing his coincidence of opinion with the Right Hon. Baronet op posite, that the reduction of the amount of the opera tives' wages would be nearly 25 per cent., instead of what the Noble Lord had stated. It had been said that if there were- no 'Manufacturers in other countries, prices would rise, but that was not the case; they were running a rate Withvarieue foreign natio n s,a nd had to combat against a very strong and, powerful competition. They could not•haretWo Separate prices for the home and th e fo reign markets, for that of the home market must always be regulated by. the foreign one. The principle sought to be laid down might - do very well for the large manu facturers, who exported tothe amount of thirty or forty millions,. but it would: certainly tend to produce a eor responding diminutimi of lab Our ; and he would entreat 'the House to reflect well upon the wofill effects which follow, and had - folloWed, the. dearth of employment which the inanuftieturing districts suffered 'under some time ago; and to consider if the objects proppsed would compensate for the enornious'defakation of employment. The Hon. Member for Ashton, when alluding to the report of 1834, proposed. a 'remedy for this state of things. • The .Hon." Member proposed that the country should endeavour to persuade foreign nations to adopt a similar course of legislation with' this country. But he (Sir. W.:Clay) was afraid,the House • could not see the likelihood .ef sneeeeding, in effecting this object - 'He confeased that the Noble• Lord teemed to him (Sir W. Clay)to - have.irribibed• some peculiar: opinion that the profits Of the manufacturer were so enormously large that they could afford.so far to sacrifice their incomes as to pay the operatives: for - working only ten. hours the same sum which they did for twelve 'hours' Werk..-- (Hear, hear.) , In. the ' - present superabundant state of the money market he did not see hoie — thi , . - Noble . Lord could form such.. an opinion. The large papitalista . would not , stiffer so much, it was true ; • but it would press most severely on all the lower clais of persons engaged in - manufacture ; for if .a bur den was imposed upon the master, it must, most as suredlyi,fall upon the operative and in the speech of the Noble Lord, he, laid particular-stress upon themedical evidence,. which stated a female in a state of pregnancy ought )1(4 ty ,13g compelled . or ,permitted to :work for twelve hours•a' day 'Now' he "(Sir Clay) would ask the .Noble Lord•one 'question, which' , he thought would show that. this was not -so • good a point es the Noble Lord seemed to imagine: ~ The question .he would ask the Noble Lord'wis, if it was fit that a female should, • when in . such a condition, be allowed to work forten hours- - --;thetime*nteniplated by the Noble Lord's Bill ? He conceded that - the Bill- afforded facilities for the. de teCtion Of-ft.:wind ;'it alsor.prevented women and children froni.working in factories frOns night till morning. • In theserespeets-he agreedivith it But he wonid:ask the .Noble Lord whether lie might not direct his benevolent efforts. to -other departnients of labour? • There was scarcely any department of labour in which the efforts of the Noble 'Lord were not more .wanted. The Noble Lord had shown that highest of human qualities, enthu, siatm in well-doing, without which nothtng, great could be aCconiplished. .He entreated him,.therefore, to direct his attention. toother brandies of industry morerequiring hiscare and theo, instead of ha v in g a narrow'majority in that flCuse-(Hetir,.hear.)- 7 -he,wptild be supported by its ,unanimous voice and the universal approbation of the community. , Mr.'IIIONCIITON:Iif . II;NES said, •as a Member con nected with the great: manufaCtiiring district of the . West, Biding of Yorkshire,' in which . this.. question excited so much interest, he hoped he should he excused ,from shortly addressing the House :on this question. p • He, rose under, a con v i c ti on that it would be his duty to oppese the Government, with which he usually acted he felt a conviction that the epiirse.the Government had taken on this"question Was attended neither. with benefit to the - country nor dignity to themselves.—(Cheers from ' the Opposition.) _ In th e course o f l ast. sess i on , t he Right - Hon. )3aronet the' Secretary of State for the Home • Dertment broeght forward another Factory Bill; 'Th y it was anet, and how it was foiled. - He did ..think -that, in.yielding-to •the Agitation .mani fested, the Right :Hon: -Baronet took a course' as little; ,then ',his' persisting in his'prese n t eoursp Was - nowr4dheers.) .Had .the Right Hon. Ba ronet then persevered, .he fin- one would have been ready to haVe,ritlted his seat to have, ,Supperted him. Under whatadifferent aspect-the question came before them at Present, to . ,what' it, did last year. - .. The agitation Which theßight, lion.. Baronet now met, a.i.d .so stre nuously opposed, was one that had lasted ten years, which excited the most vivid attention and the deepest' • interest among large pOrtion,of the : people, and which Was now confirmed by: a solemn decision of that HOuSe. —(Hear, hear.) They. were ; no* asked to come down un Sa'rare 'an occasion U); rescind the solemn resolution Of that House,' come to after an adjourned debate of three days,' with Out any _pretence of casualty or haste, be cause. the GOvernment wished to take advantage of any: chance 'Contingency that might enable it to reverse the' lOrmer decisiOn.—(Hear, hoar.) The Hon.:Member for the 'foster Hamlets who had pre ceded him had undertaken the difficult task of shOwnig :that the whole .matter Was a 'dream Of philanthropic enthusiasm on the part of the' Noble Lord.; • he held out the state of the factoi:y children anda - wortleii as so satis factory that it was :almost impertinent in that House to interfere with them.' He had hoped that that question had ;been settled tbr ever. He had hoped that they all knew that thousands and thousands of - children in the manufaCturing districts were being ,brought up in a eon (Hon. more degraded Allen that of a slave population— (Oh, oh)--4hat thousancli :perished annually on 'the threshold of manhood,.Physically and morally unable to meet the difficulties of life.:—<llear, hear.) . In the present year, as in:the last; the 'Government had come cloWn to :the House with a Bill interfering with labour.. He considered the speech .'of the Right Honourable Baro 7 at the bead., of` the. Governtnent against this ' picip,o 7 sition, .appi,ied with much greater force against the prin ciple of any interferenee at all, than against the modifi 7 cation,of it, which was prOpOsedbY . the Noble Lord the Member for Dersetshire. All that the - Noble Lord had propbaed wtta,tlitit the children, after passing, the age of, 13, should .not be. put at ,oneo , to the dreadful toil of twelve' hours A day. The Hon.• Baronet, the Member for the Tower Mallets, 'had . tried • to make out that twelve hours' labour a day was extremely light; and such as he himself WOuldoot mind kindertalang. 'He said thiS on.' the authority of Mr. Senior; but he believed if the `Hon. - BarPnet and Mr. - Senior had but a week'S •-riende . of it them Selves they would come to a very dif ferent opinion on that subject.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Milnes) attached more 'weight to the opinions of Dr. :HaWkins and - the, medical men of Man chester, than the statement of Mr. Senior, who from his villa at Itnightsbridge 'paid the manufac turing districts only.* flying visit. But there was an wa r a t s of h t e li questioni a s eeuto f thi S t9 pr w o li p i ci P s h iti b on e ' Wonishtheed _to prefer_ fe o r i -the operatives. Wherever the principle of .wages had i t th th e fit p been scientifically laid down, he' had always understood that there were four elementS by which the amount of wages was regulated ; these were pcipulation, capital, ,the fluctuations in the price of produce, and the standard of living.. Neither"of these, taken separately and instt rated from the rest, could have any effect on wages— • they all depended on each other. He could not believe, _therefore, that a small reduction in the mapufacturer's prbfit could have such an effect in reducing wages as teemed. to be apprehended. , :He would solemnly ask the , Committee to, look well at what they .11 ere • • doing before they rescinded - the former decision:of : the HouSe. He asked them to consider under. What a different 'aspect the question came before ;them now; Let them remember that it had gone forth to every village and hamlet in the Manufacturing districts that there was now a majority of the representatives of the people who had declared it to be their opinion that children ought not to be worked more than ten hours a-day. At that moment the people were speaking of it to one : another telling, each other that the noble exertions of :.the., -Noble Lord. shad at last accom. plished the object for which he had contended, 'by ten years_ of unwearied exertion on his, part, and of unceasing hope, on theirs. Could the Go. Yerntnent 'aiippese that a decision .of the House,' . - verging the formee vote, obtained. by 'any 'means they 'night command ; would' have the effect, of turning hack the river from its.course, or:Mike th e people of England . ..forget the decision of the former night ? They would .not forget it,. and if they were likely to do so, his Noble Friend would . take care 'that they . did not. But he thought it comparatively •of small - importance what might •be the result of the - vote of that evening ; the fate of the measure was settled. The Ten Hours' Bill was as much at that moment the law of the land, as any other partof the interfering Bill of. the Governnient He sincerely and heartily griev e d that the Government had set itself against the OpiniOns, the sympathy, the good feeling, and religious sense of a large portion of the people of .England; and he would sit down by humbly imploring the Committee to resist the 'dangerous course the Government was pursuing, and not, by so persisting, drive his Noble Friend to some desperate ' extremity --(Cheers and laughter) fro n t taking a step in which, he believed, he would be sup ported by a majority of that House—that of. laying at • the feet of her Majesty herself the prayer of the people, imploring the interference of her benevolence and noble feelings against the short-sightedness, or rather the ,blindness, of the Government.-- . -(Cheers.) . Mr. VERNON SMITH said he felt called on to' vote for a Ten Houreßill. The whole argument of the oponents of the ten hours' system rested, the other even ing; on the ground that they ought not to interfere with labour at all. But ho found that the Government had interfered in the Bill with the freedom of labeur. -'---(Hear, hear.) But it might be said that children and unmarried females were not free agents. That, he was sorry to say, was the case with regard to a great portion. of the Male population of the country • and it was not exclusively applicable to females that they. were not free to dispose of their labour. It was more in the power of the master to say to the laboorer !` you shall work," than in the power of the • labourer to - say 4.1 will not work. They interfered with labour on the ground .of the helplessness of the children, and because the system was tending to unhinge society altogether. Perhaps there might be "some dOubt as to the propriety of interfering with - labour at all, for in 1833 the pres sure was found to be so great that persons of all parties were determined -upon interfering-on behalf of children. The question -now proposed to hiin was, whether he thought A child was capable - of-.working twelve' or ten' hours ?—(Hear, hear.) He had no hesitation in answer ing such a question, and saying that'he was decidedly in favour of ten hours as the proper Limit (Hear, hear.) He believed no person:would say that the children could Work twelve hours ; a. clay, without injuring their moral and : physical: constitution.-H,; hear.)• The 'real argument against the ten hours came' from. 'the 'Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home De- partmeat, who asked whether they would apply the axe to the root of the commercial greatness of the country? His Noble Friend talked of applying it to the root of the moral evil ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman altered the application of the expression as used by his Noble Friend. But was it possible that the eommercial greatness of this country depended on keeping children at work twelve hours, instead of ten? In 1833 a gentleman; in whose political sentiments he did not cpincide—the late Mr. Cobbett—said he had heard of the greatness of the coun try depending, on some occasions, on the learned pro fessions, on other on able statesmen ; but he had never before heard of its consisting in working little girls two hours a day. He could not see, as stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman, how a diminution of 25 per cent. Would result from a remission of one-sixth of the labour. —(Hear, hear.) ,He could not - see how the diminution could amount to more than the 'diminution of time.— (Hear, hear.) Even if it were the fact, which he did not believe it wag; that the manufactures of the country would be .perilled. by the ten hours' system, yet he was riot prepared to say that the moralaspect was not to be preferred to the commercial one.—(Hear, hear.) When they were told that the c hildr en were b roug h t up decrepit and depraved, - he doubted 'whether the com mercial view should not give weight to the consideration which would remedy this state of things.—(Hear.) If there was - a--loss in wages to the workmen he would make it up to them by more healthy and vigorous con stitutions and by . a higher tone of moral . feeling.— (Hear.) It had been asked how the workmen were to live. He would - say there was no danger of starving in this country.—(" Oh, oh,", and Hear, hear.) He be lieved that those who received the highest wages were not the most moral or the most provident.—(lronical cheers.) He had only stated-What he had been told. nit object would be to Put every person on such a foot - Mg that might get as good wages as he could.-- (Cheers.) That met with a general assent, and it ought to be the object which every wise legislator should have in view. The present system had been productive of a vicious state of society. Men were now supported by their wives and children, which induced themt to melee ,early marriages. He thought great confusion had been intro duced into the debate, in consequence of the course adopted' by the Government. The decision of the House of Commons had been already twice come to on the subject, ,andif. the Government had a Majority on the present debate, there would be two conflicting . deci sions. A case b e tt er d ec id e d be did n ot know in the course of his Parliamentary career, They now sought to change the Opinions of their usual- supporters, but not, a single independent supporter of the -Government went with them on the lite decision. Mr. CARDWELL 'said • that lie had endeavoured to possess himself of 'the real merits of the questien now before the House, and although he had not the good for tune of coming to the same Conclusion as `the Noble Lord. (Lord Ashley) and Could not, therefore, give his vote nn what he knew was the popularside of it, yet he begged to, assure the Noble Lerd and the Committee that the main .object present, to his mind in coming to a sound conviction on the subject, had been not to come to- any conciiisionwhichWould linpede the growing.prosperity of the great operative Classes of this country.—(Hear, hear.) In reference to the public this subject had been, remarkably divided into two sides, one ! sustaining-the commercial view of the subject, - and the other resting' almost entirely on the basis of humanity and mOrAlity. An Hon,Gentlentan.sadopted an illustration which he believed was not new from him ; it had been taken he' believed from the classical historian of Manchester, who said that those engaged tin m anu f ac t ur i ng pursuits "passedthrough the fire to Moloch, and through filth to Mammon." Such was the language addressed to those who felt called on by their convictions to vote against him on this subject. He not deny it was .possible to take the commercial view of the subject alehe, and that there might, be sordid then, who would'extratt as great an amount of wealth as - they could, regardless of the sufferings of ethers. He admitted that such a view of- the case might be taken; bill he 'denied that it 3vas possible, from the nature of-the case,: for any person'wholooked at the subject with- judgment, and applied his mind firmly to its consideration, to leave out thelcommercial view of the - Subject altogether, and rest _it solely on morality and humanity (Cheers.) Was it posXible for persons who had 'the least experience on the subject, or who, having no experience, possessed an or dinary capacity, and applied it diligently to-the Consi- . deretion of the case, to take a view regarding solely the physical and moral well-being of the operative, and leatiing out from his Consideration the commercial view, whiCh so deeply affected the interests or the operative classes themselves?—(Hear, hear.) _ He Would , ask the .11otise to consider bow largely the operatives of the corn triunity were benefited-by the prosperityof British com merce. ---(Hear, hear.) In proportion to the results affected by it, how trifling was their most extensive charity?—(Cheerso . In proportion to it, how meagre was their best contrived legislation? -He said, there fore, that to talk for a single moment of taking the view of the question -apart from commer 7. cial considerations, and .resting,` it ,on the bergs of humithity , and. Morality,. ;,was not becoming dignity of 'the House, of Coranions.-7-(Cries " Hear, hear.") He begged Of. them to beware, lest, by opposing a Ten Hours' Bill,: they:might notgive occasion , to those,for whose benefit he knew it,was intended most to bitterlyrue it.--,(Hear.) In legislating on this subject, there were two objects whichthey must be most desirous Of combining. One was that they should give really efficient .protection to those who, from their tender years, were incapable of . protecting themselves; the other was, that they should leave free as the Winds of lieauen, to the judgment ; Management, and economy of 'the individuals themselves, the labour of' those who wercapable of protecting themselves—(Hear, hear) — that . labour which, as had been so often observed, was the , only property they possessed.—(Cheers.) . He found that her Majeaty:s .Government, in the Bill which they had laid on the table of the Ho use , endeavour:ed to effect these -two ohjeets-- , 7 the protecting of those who wanted protection, and the leaving of f ree d om t o Lose who! were capable 'of protecting themseivei.—( Heir.) He did not think that to effect, those 'two objects was wholly incompatible. The bestarrangements which could possibly be' made was that which would combine those two objeots. They had' endeavoured to limit the hours of labour for children - ‘ to such an amount that after devoting sufficient tine to labour they would be able to employ the - remaining hours of the day .in 'securing, a good system of education. The Hon. Gen tlemen had - spoken of a system, of relays, , Now he (Mr., Cardwell) ,llad to complain of - the caution which-was. ebserVed in — dpeiiiiirig of .tiheshbiect of relays. 'Were they driving at &Uniform Ten Hours' Bill?- 4 4flear.) That was a question Which pressed itself very much on his mind in considering the subject. - He might be' told that the Noble Lord had said nothing-, about relays. he (Lord Ashley) intended : that relays should be coin bined with a ten hours' system, he. had no right to say that he had the feeling- of the large body of the mill owners with him. He (Mr. Cantwell) knew that many persons who came here in deputations said that -what they wanted was a uniform Ten 14quis' Were they prepared to put this in practice?—(Hear.) _ Let them take care that they would not leave the great proportion of the children in this country in a much worse position than they were at present.—(Hear.) He should he extremely reluctant to. cast the slightest aspersion on ihe motives of any individual, but he must . say he honeatly believed 'that the persons in that House who advocated - the view of , the. Noble Lord the Member for .Dorsetshire, did so with the utmost sincerity and the :purest philanthropy, but at the same time they deceived theintelVes. He begged them .to consider . what would be the .. effect of a • Ten Hours' pill The effect would he that the adults would do less and the children' mere• Work. Of the wages earned a larger portion would be - screwed out of the sinews of the. young than' from those of the adult. That was a result against which, on grounds of morality and humanity, the Committee was bound to guard with the utmost possible vigilance. In seeking fora.Ten Hours' Bill they were not seeking fora -practical measure, and true humanity was always practice: . The proposal,' therefore, which was now brought for Ward, with no doubt ‘-the best intentions, was not founded upon true humanity. ' On the subject of redueed wages he- had heard most strange doctrines.,-;-;-(Cheers and oountereheers.) From the speech of the Holt. Gentleman who spoke last he' was at a loss to learn whether he thought low or high wages better. , The cenclusion which he (Mr. C.) should have drawn from the non. Gentleman's'aserva- Oohs,' if "he were allowed to apply to them the common principles of logic, was, that in low wages, there was a protection against profligacy and improvident management— (OppositiOn cheers and ' laughter) -- and that they . would promote the social virtues in a. very great, degree—L(Hear, hear)—and that they were a greafgood, which the House in its wisdom should take upon itself to effeet. But was astonished to hear the Noble Member for Dorsetshire speak of wages as if 'they were measured in direct mathematical proportion, to- the number of hours during which the operative worked.—(Hear, hear.) -The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last made - the same mistake. Wages were measured by a different standard. They were paid out of the profits of the . establishment. Without profits there could be no wages, and unless a set of philanthropists were found to under take the trade and commerce Of the country; it must be assumed that there should be some profit. Then it was quite clear that if they.took away part of the profit they took away from ' the wages'. They had it from hi g h authority, that the reduction in wages Would be 25 per cent., and he (Mr. C.) had no hesitation in belieVlng that it would reach' that amount. Another question which Hon. Gentlemen forgot , was, that of Machinery. In these days of improvement, machinery, if not worn mit,. became uselesi, and was obliged to be renewed in a few 'years. This_part of the subject, however, he only ad verted to in passing. The Hon. Gentlemen Who spoke last talked of workmen being repaid for the loss' in their wages by an increase of health. Now, his expe- . rience ,shOwed him that when there were row Wages, there . were also al wa y s ' numerous compla i nts 'of suffering ; • and ftibugh - they had often heard of com binations of operatives to obtain a fair day's wages for a fair day's work, they had never heard of combinations to enforce short hours. Besides, it was to be borne in mind that the operatives who petitiohed in favour of ten hours were 'under the impression that the Noble Lord's proposition would be carried without any reduction in wages at all ' - and shat Manchester was , placarded with the words " Less work—inere'Wages—sign for the Ten Hours' Bill!"—(Hear.) That fallacy was very common. If they thought that we had nothing to fear from fo reign competition they were greatly' mistaken, and they would find eventually' that underthe name of humanity they were inflicting a great cruelty on both operative and master. The commercial prosperity 'of this country was owing to the paradox, that the master manufacthrers paid the lowest' wages, and that the operative received • the highest Wages that any master paid or any operative received-in the world: -Strange as that might seem to be, it was perfectly true; and the explanation was this, that the' master paid more 'money, but got a greater - amount of work, -while the workman received so much more money as to enable him to live better'than - any other operative in the world: ,TbAt wee brought about IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ,HOUSE OF LORDS; March 22. ROYAL ASSENT. The Royal Asient was given .to-day, at a quarter be fore Five o'Clock; to the Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Annuity Reduction Bin.; the Three-and-a,flalf per Gent. (1818) Annuity Reduction Bill ; the Consolidated Fund (8,000,000) Bill ; the Gaining , Transactions . Witness's Indemnity Bill, and the Teachers of Schools (Ireland) Bill._ • • - The Lords Commissioners were the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lord Chancellor, and the Duke of Buceleuch. • " Their Lordships th en adjourned during . pleasure. . . The LORD CIIANCETION tosik his. seat on the Wool sack shortly after Five o'Clock. Messengers from the • Commons brought up the Ramsay, Inclosure Bill and other Bills. - The Duke of BUCCLEUC H presented petitions from Rye, against any alteration in the . eorn-lagivs-. - Lori PEUDFIOI4.3 presented similar petitions from Shillbottle, in Northumberland. • • • The Earlof RADNOR took that opportunity to explain that on a former occasion, when he referred to a meet ing which had been held in Yorkshire, respecting the corn-laws, he had not alluded to Lord Feversham, but Lord Harewood. • After a few words from the Duke of RICHMOND and the Duke of BUCCLEIIC.II,. the limiter dropped. The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that he would move for copies of any communications which had been made between the Government and the Poor law authorities, respecting the case of Mary Miller, the unfortunate female who committed suicide in a work • house a short time ago. • The Marquis of SORMANBY presented a petition complaining of the operation of the Act under which the Lambeth Water-works was established. The Earl of RADNOR said the Noble Earl to whom he had alluded on a former occasion (the-Earl of Hare wood) had stated a fact at the meeting in Yorkshire, and from that fact he drew an inference; which was that the Anti-Corn-law League incited to incendiarism. He (the Earl of Radnor) had called the attention of the Noble Earl to the paragraph in the newspaper in which the meeting was reported, and the , Noble Earl admitted that it was correct. The Duke of BUCCLEUCH said, that within the last four days he had s'_‘en Lord Harewood, and the conversa tion turned on this very subject. The Noble Earl ad mitted that the report in the newspapers of what s he had stated was correct, but he did not admit that the infer ence which was drawn in the leading article of that pa. per was correct. The Noble Earl never imputed to the Anti-Corn-law League any attempt to incite to incen diarism. The Earl of RADNOR said, the fact the Noble Earl (flarewood) had stated was, that a farmer had attended a pro-corn-law meeting in Norfolk, and the same night his stacks were burnt. The inference the Noble Earl meant to draw from that was, that the stacks had been burnt through the agency of the Anti-Corn-law League. Lord WHARNCLTFEE denied that such an infer ence could be drawn_from the words of the Noble Earl. Lord BEAUMONT said, he was at the elbow of the Noble Earl (Harewood) when he -made the speech to which the Noble Earl (Rad nor) had alluded, and he was sure that no person at the meeting supposed for a moment that the. Noble Earl intended to impute to the Anti-Corn law.League any intention to incite to incendiarism. The Marquis of NORMANBY said he was neither a. pro-porn-law man nor an " anti-corn-law man," but he thought it was to be regretted that Noble Lords should make speeches from which objectionable inferences might be drawn. The Duke of RICHMOND presented several petitions from parishes in Norfolk, complaining of the Anti-Corn law.League He took that opportunity of observing that he did not know why Lord Harewood did not answer the letter of the Noble Earl opposite ; yet he was not surprised that his Noble Friend did not think the House of Lords ought to be a court of appeal for what passed at public meetings. He was not sorry for the explanations that had passed, and he hoped that they would induce the League to be more guarded in future. The Noble Earl (Radnor) said that a gentleman advised the country people at an anti-league meeting to throw the leaguers over the bridge if they came to Lin coln. He did not approve of such advice, for he always was opposed to violence ; but if the gentleman alluded to had said se, he would recommend the leaguers not to go to Lincoln.--(Great laughter on the Tory side.) THE SILK WEAVERS. Lord LILFORD presented a petition from the opera tive silk weavers of, the township of Leigh, praying for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into their case ; and also to move for the appointment of a Select Committee thereupon. The petition was signed by upwards of 5,000 persons. He did not intend to go into the general question affecting the grievances of which the petitioners complained. He knew their Lordships were jealous—and properly jealous of the statements of petitions. He should confine himself merely to the allegations of that petition. They stated the causes of their distress to be low wages, unjustifiable abatement of those wages, want of employment, and home competition. From all- the investigation he had been_ able to make on this subject, be was satis fied that their allegations were well founded ; and if their Lordships would give him the opportunity, he would confirm those statements by evidence on oath. The Arbitration Act had been found to be very ineffec tive in reconciling the differences of masters and men ; for a recourse to them was attended with expense, loss of time, and seldom was attended with any satisfaction,. (The Noble Lord then read extracts from letters received by him from magistrates, confirming the statements of the petitioners as to the inefficiency of the arbitrators, and that the wages of the workmen were abated frequently in an arbitrary manner, and without any justification.) He trusted their Lordships would consider this matter coolly and dispassionately, and look at all the bearings of the case, for by so doing it would beholding out a hope to those people. and prove to them that their Lord ships were most anxious to do all they could to alleviate their distress. He should not, under all the circum stances of the case, at present move for the appointment of a Select Committee; -but he, nevertheless, hoped that the matter would not be allowed to rest where it now was. Lord DALHOUSIEfeIt great satisfaction in hearing his Noble F r i en d annbunce his intention of net applying for a Committee, because it would have a tendency to mislead the public - mind. The subjects mentioned in this matter were manyand varied,-and in manyinstances so totally .beyond the control of. Parliament, that it would be almost impossible to legislate for them. Such being.the case, he thought it would be only exciting the public mind without doing any practical good, and tend to increase the difficulties by which the matter was al ready surrounded. He could not agree with his Noble Friend on the propriety of the alteration which he proposed in the law relating to this subject. He did not wish, as an individual, to pledge her Majesty's Government to the adoption of any particular course, but still he would say that there should be no loss of time in their endea vour to amend the existing law. After a few words from Lord KENYON, the subject dropped._ The sfarquis of CLANRICRADE presented a peti tion from a place in Ireland, praying for the repeal of the legislative union. Th(i - Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from Harefield, Middlesex, against the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill. The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 22. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. The following Bills were read a second time, namely, the Eastern Counties' Union Railway, the Newcastle and Darlington Junction Railway and Tyne Bridge Bill, the Pontop and South Shields Railway Bill, and the Edinburgh, Leith, and Granton Railway Bill. The Birmingham Canal Navigation Bill was read a third time , and passed. . FACTORIES BILL. Sir JOHN EASTHOPE presented •a petition from Leicester, signed by a large number of manufacturers, expressing in strong terms the disapprobation of the amendment introduced by the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorset. THE SILK MANUFACTURE. Lord F. EGERTON presented a petition signed by 5 ,000 persons comiected with the silk-weaving trade, complaining of the many disadvantages which pressed so heavily on them, and praying that Parliament would appoint a Committee to inquire into the matter. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD presented a petition from the managers of the poor in the several townships of the parish of Rochdale. The petitioners stated their objections to the bastardy:clauses of the Poor-law Bill, and prayed that they may be amended- before the Bill be passed into law ; also, a petition f rom - B raintree hi Essex, praying f o r a full and fair representation of the people ; and a petition from J. B: Harvey, of Col chester, against certain clauses in the Great Western Railway Bill. IRELAND. Mr. O'CONNELL presented' a petition from St. John's, Newfoundland, praying that justice might be done to Ireland, and that recourse might not be bad to measures of coercion ; also several petitions from dif ferent places in Ireland, complaining of the maladmi nistration of justice ; also petitions from different parts of Ireland, signed by upwards of 180,000 persons, com plaining of tie effects produced upon Ireland by the legislative union, and praying for its repeal. Lord J. RUSSELL presented a petitton against the ten hours' clause of the . Factories Bill. Sir R. 11. IN GLIS presented a petition from the mem bers of the Bath Church of England Lay Association, complaining of the conduct of Dissenters, and praying the House to resist all attempts to deprive the Church of England of the full amount and benefit of her esta. blishad rights. — NO (lron TICES Ob er MOTION. - s from the Opposition.) Mr. FITZSTEI'HEN FRENCH gave notice that on Tuesday he should move for certain returns on the, sub ject of the working of the Tithe Commutation Act in 'lreland. Mi. EWART gave notice that he .would take the earliest opportunity, upon the House going into a Com mittee of Supply, of moving for the abolition .of the duties on raw materials, and for a reduction. of those duties which tend to.encourage smuggling. ROYAL COMMISSION. Sir A. Clifford, Usher of the Black 'Rod, appeared at th., table, and summoned the House to the House of Lords to hear the Royal Assent, given by . Commission, to several Bills. mittee on the Commons Incleisure Bill, he would move the adoption of resolutions to the effect, that it wts ex pedient to have a Board consisting of a superintendent and two vice-superintendents, to whom (as we under stood) the subject should be referred. WRECKS OF THE NERBUDDA AND ANN. Dr. BOWRING put the question, of which he had given notice—Whether any reply has been received from the Government of Pekin, in answer to the application made for the punishment of the authorities of the Island of Formosa, who ordered the murder of the crews of the Nerbudda and Ann ? Two hundred of the crews of these vessels fell into the hands of the natives, and were treated with great cruelty by them, the greater proportion of them being subsequently murdered. He wished to know whether any redress had been obtained or promised for this outrage. It was understood that the na tive authorities had been advanced in rank b' . the Emperor of China ; he wished to know if any punish ment was likely to be inflicted on them for this violation of the laws, of nations and humanity. Sir R. PEEL said he believed- the statement of the Hon. Gentleman was substantially correct. Two Bri tish vessels were wrecked on the coast of Formosa, and after the sailors . and passengers had been detained a :considerable 'time, . and suffered. great privations, many of them were put to death. Sir H. Pottinger made a representation to the Emperor of China, stating that the . British Government viewed the transaction with great . regret, .and trusted that signal punishinent would beinflicted _on the authorities of the island. He must say that he thought .the statement of the Emperor-in reply to him was a very satisfactory one, and worthy of a ruler of a 'great - country. A proclamation was inserted in the Pekin Gazette, of which Sir Henry Pottinger spoke in high terms. ,He stated he had seen with great pleasure the decree of the. Em peror on the subject of the British subjects who were put to death on tho island of Formosa, and he was sure it would be received with great satisfaction by his Government. That proclamation he (Sir Robert Peel) thought exhibited as great a desire to do justice as he had ever seen on the.part of a civi lised State. The ,Emperor alleged in the proclamation that he had been entirely deceived by the Chinese authorities of Formosa, who stated that the crews of the. ships landed with arms in their hands, and were taken as prisoners of war. He had ordered an inquiry into .their conduct, and finding that they had 'deceived him, be had ordered all who had obtained a promotion of rank by their false representations to be degraded from it, and to be handed. over to the - . Board. of Punishment, The Emperor had therefore disgraced all the parties concerned, and had caused them to be •removed for the purpos'e of being tried ;Jay the miller authorities, and having _such further psh ment inflicted upon them as their crime de served. Now he really thought, upon the whole, this proclamation was all that could be expected. They there saw the. adyantage ,of increased intercourse between civilised countries. . INCENDIARY FIRES, • _ _ Colonel FOX begged. to ask the Right Hon. Gentle-' man the Secretary of State for the Home-Department; whether any steps had been taken by the Government-in consequence of the numerous incendiary fires which had. Wien' recently place in Suffolk.' It was well known that several such fires • had-taken place. - The Hon. Gentle- Man,then read an . extract :from an address delivered by the Chairman of Quarter Sessions, in whibh he expressed his astonishment that the rural police had not been able to detect any of the offenders. . .• . .- Sir J. GRAHAM said it was undoubtedly true that several incendiary fires had taken place in Suffolk' within a recent-'period, -- and • that, though every attempt had. been made, no offender had as y • et been discovered. Although the crime might be frequent, it was still difteult of, deteation: Ho had ' thought it mecessar)- • to send some assistance to` the rural police froin - tlie me • tropolitan force, but he was sorry to say that', up to the present time no detection had taken place: • Lord HENNIKER rose amidst loud cries of ‘‘ Order; order i '' btit. 'was at length. allowed to . proceed. - Be said. the , fires in the county which he had the honour to represent—namely, Suffolk—were so fre quent, that it . was matter of wonder 'when there were none. - -(Hear, hear.) He himself had been called up at' two o'clock in the. morning, and had witnessed a most awfurconflagration. He believed thaVone fire had taken, place y6terday ; but it was quite true - that, up to that moment,..not one of the offenders had been detected. • INDIA. Mr._ MANGLES gave notice that - he • would move fpr a return of the letters to, the Board of Control from the late Lord Hastings, dated the lath December• 1809, end the , Ist of March, 1810, or extracts therefrom' Sir ROBERT PEEL was understood to say that he had no objection to the return.of "the letters, 'but if the Hon. Member moved for extracts, thatwoUld.be a matter of discretion. • - THE. SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNIN,G, 'MARCH 28, 1844. 1846, the hours of labour for females end young per sons shall be eleven. The Noble Lord said he would not fatigue the House, which had been already so in dulgent to him, by' going into details. H e wou ld quote the opinion of Mr. Horner, as stated in his report. He said that in factories a - restraint ought to be put upon the labour of females, and of children, because where there was such a redundancy of labour, there could be no such Piing as practical freedom; Women In the minufac turing districts were not free agents, they were obliged to toil, and they, were net able to bear fatigue to the same extent as men. The experience and knowledge of all medical men was against their being employed in the manner they were 'at _present: 'And, in his report of. December, 1841, Mr. Horner further stated that there could - be littledoubt but that working ten hours - a day would be less prejudicial to health than working for Irwelye; . but, without enteringinto the question of health at all, such an entire absorption of the labour and time of the working classes, was in a moral point of view, most objectionable. He (Lord Ashley) thought . the House: had, to a great extent, to consider whether it was better to have a moral population, with smaller wages or a depraved people, with greater?--(hear:) But he was not by any means prepared to admit, at least to the extent supposed by• Honourable ,Gentleman opposite, that .a diminution of the hours- of. labour would cause such. a. reduction of wages. In- 1833 .the hours of labour of children in factories had been - reduced considerably; yet when he' (Lord Ashley) visited the manufacturing districts - in 1836- ha found that chil dren had just as much wages then for eight hours'. work. as they had.previously for ten or twelve. In •1818 a pes tition to that House was presented by' Sir _Robert Peel, father of the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's 'Government, from the cotton-spinners of Manchester, praying for a reduction in' the hours of la bour, and the Hon. Baronet on that 'occasion, in urging the prayer of the petitioners, said they (the petitioners) were most anxious that the Legislature would interfere, and that they would prefer a dirainution in the comforts of life they were then enjoying to their present intoler able toil. In combatting his (Lord Ashley's) arguments the Hon. Member for Durham and the Hon. Member for Manchester spoke in very high terms of the comfort of the operatives, and of the wages those employed in the factories could earn. Why, he thought that that argu ment was rather in favour of his (Lord Ashley's) proposition, for if they earned - such large wages they could the better bear a. diminution of them. He held in his hand certain returns, which-would show that the Operative population would not be injured by, any. reduction in their wages, arising out of the limita tion' to ten hours a-day of their labour. He took; in the first place, the case of a single woman; he would sup pose that her earnings from work ,in the factory amounted to 9s. per week. Now'it must be recollected by the House that there were many things to be done at her home which might be done by herself, but owing to the length of time he was,- under the present system, 'engaged in the factory, she was compelled to hire another person to -do that work for her. The ex penses of her washing, which, under a system of ten hours's:labour, she' -.won Id be enab/ed to-do herself.; the loss arising from her meals .being -carried to the factory, and other little matters, would amount to. about • Is. Sid. per week. If she had to work but ten hours in the day she would save these expenses; and supposing her wages to be reduced one-sixth in conse quence- of the reduction in • the number of hours of labour, it would be seen that she would not be a loser by the change. He would take the case of a family of five persons, three of whom worked in a factory twelie hours a day. The mother_ obtained 10s., a-week, the eldest child 4s. per week, and the second child 35., Making in all 17 s . p er wee k. Th e expenses of washing, mangling,' &c , would amount to 2s. per week: A woman would be required occasionally to assist the huaband at home in the domestic work, and that would take another shilling. He would then put down another shilling for the loss which would arise from the meals being carried to the factory, by which great waste was caused, inasmuch as when-several persons dined together, anything that was left-might be put by towards another meal.. A loss would arise from the husband cooking the meals, for scarcely any man, whether Frenchman or Englishman, could cook so ecenomically as a woman.—(Laughter.) This loss he estimated at anothet shilling, and these expenses together would amount to 55., which left 12s. for the purchase of provisions, clothing, and other expenses. Now that was the estimate under thesysteni of twelve hours' labour. He would.now state the - amount of _the expenses for the same family, under a system' of ten hours' labour. Supposing that the wages,. in conse quence of the 'reduction of the number of hours of la bour, were to .be reduced one-sixth, the wages of this 'family would amount to 14s. 2d. Undera system of ten hours' labour the woman would • have time to do the washing of her own family at an expense of about on* shilling. A woman would be required occasionally to assist in cleaning the house, and that would take another sixpence, making one shilling and sixpence to be de ducted from - the - 14s: 20,, reffiicing - the wages ;to 12s: Bd. per week. It would' be seen; therefore, that rather than .the family losing by any reduction in the amount. of their wages, they would be gainers by:-the change. These were the. statements - made by the operatives themselves. He held it?..his hand a note, from. a person ' who was on the spot, respecting the expenses of a family—he took the case of a family of four persons working in a- ' factor all of whom were engaged in' different hinds *of ' a bour.' Each of those four persons had separate teas, and, consequently four journeys were made in - conveying the meals to the factory. Under the present system of twelve hours' labour, the full amount of victuals sent out was either consumed, or destroyed, and great waste often took, place. Now, under a system of tent hours' labour, only three meals a day would be required. Under the present Sj stem, such was the great exhaustion to which the labourer was subjected; that it was absolutely necessary he should have at least four meals a day, Unds r a system of ten hours' labour, therefore, one meal a day :would be saved, besides the advantage of having the meals at home. The writer of the note he - held in his hand said that, .when he worked ten hours a day, -in 1842, he never had more than three meals a day ; but that, when he was working twelve hours. a day, in the Sense mill, he was, :abso lutely obliged to have what were called " extras.", These consisted of little delicacies, such as ham and other things, to enable him to go through 'the hours of his. daily labour. There was another point to be con sidered, and that was, that it required one child to - carry meals from the home to the . factory. Now, under a ' system , of ten hours the la.bonr of this child might be employed. more advantageously • and profitably to its parents. But the most important consideration of all amongst the opera uld have the- effect of of labour were to be v a de s u cs , t te h hd a e nt from i s t a v t a ee s s g th e ti n a t fv l tyhve twelve, e h l i i ot e uw v r e d os re a prolonging for at least three years .the term of their working life ; many went as far as to say that it Would prolong their workinglife as much as five years. -He, had only one other fact, which was a very remarkable one, with reference to this subject which he would trouble the House with, and that was a table showing the 'num her of. criminal offences, committed in England and Wiles in the year 1841. Prom that the House might judge of the-condition, or rather the moral character,- of the females in the manufacturing districts, The pro-, portion of females committed for offences was much greater in the manufacturing and commercial counties 1 than in the agricultural counties. He took 13 manu facturing, and 13 agricultural counties s and in-1841 the :number of females committed in the agricultural districts . was one to s i x ma les, and in the manufacturing and-. commercial counties one to three males. Now he would. appeal, to the Muse to consider the position In which this question was placed. He would tell her Majesty's_ Government that it was "not 'a new matter—it was not now propounded for the -first time —for the last twelve years it had been gradually growing up. L e t th e Go vernment bear in mind what was the p os i t i on o f t h e question now, rafter a majority of that House had affirmed it—a majority involving the representatives of the_. greatest of the cornniercialsenstituencies in the kingdom -(Cheers)—and supported by the fervid and undy ing sympathy of this country.--(Cheers.) Did they think it wise—did they think it just, toreverse such a mighty decision by the simple exercise of official aotho rity?-•-:(Cheers.) He _Appealed to the House .whether, after having excited such bright hopes and expectations, they would now destroy that hope which had been called into life amongst the great body of our tharnifacturirig population-=he called upon them not to do so—from the bottom. of his heart he- called upon them.to do justice to the syinpathy which had been . evinced by the whole country on this subject—to ''do justice to their own cha racter, -and not turn round upon 'theil- deciiion and de stroy its effect. He called upon them to have regard for the character they occupied in • the country; and to the character they occupied in the minds of all the nations of the world. Did -they .think that the feeling which. had been excited amongst the people would ever. rest' until they arrived at that cons summation which was 'so much desired ? He could assure the- Government that if they succeeeded that night—he did,net believe they would—hut he could assure them, that if they succeeded that night, it would only be to give additional vigOur and additional determi nation to those who had so long maintained the principle he was then advocating. 'lf they succeeded that night, their success would have the effect of prolonging the sufferings and the evils which he had described. .But they might depend upon it that the , sympathy of man s kind and the feeling of the country would compel them. ) ultimately 'to surrender, and they would surrender at last, when the boon svouldhave•losVall its grace, and he feared would be of little remedial power. The Noble Lord concluded by moving that the labour . in factories be ten hOurs instead of twelve, intimating that if this: motion should be carried, he should then move a previa() that it should not come into , operation until 1846. Sir WILLIAM CLAY said it that was his intention tts oppose the motion of the Noble Lord ; but while he did so he would give •the Noble Lord full credit , for the humane and exalted sentiments he had expressed. He could not, however, think that the Noble Lord had made 'out a case su ffi ciently stro ng t o j us tify the Government in, adopting- his proposal He did not think that the remedy proposed by the Noble Lord would have the effect of removing the evils of which the Noble • - Lord complained. He thought, on the contrary, that the proposal of the Noble Lord would aggravate rather, than diminislitthe evil. He did not think that the labour performed in factories was so severe as to tall for le gislative interference. In the opinion expressed by medical men, as to the effect of factory labour, there were great discrepancies. It was a remarkable fact; that 'those mecticsd men Who - were of opinion , that factory labour was, injurious ' to health, were persons not per lewdly conversant with the subject. Medical men resident on' the spot, in the midst of the factory popu lation, w.ere decidedly of a contrary opinion. If the House were to refer to th e sanatory reports , they would find that the av erage d urat i on of life amo n gs t the labouring, ,Pc populati on o f t h e manufacturing d i stric t s was greater than amo ngs t . . persons of a similar c l ass in' the large toe ns. Forlzcsts, the m ean d ura tion of life of persons employed in f ac t or i es in M anchester was no t l es s than the mean durati on o f lif e amongst persons i n a similar . , r_../ , tbe by the superior economy, energy, and manageineetcoloir people of this country. All that had been de° t o 0 tently with a gradual and steady amelioration, s of the the present Bill offered, in the conditioa rebore d younger branches of the community. He „ r ill'', that, the worst enemies to the country g e 4r• and above all to those operative classes which w il ' ou gh serving of their best r e ga r d s , were those nh °, mistaken zeal, would allow themselves -to coo , any impulse of humanity, without having careful? be• sidered its oonsequences.—(Cheers.) Ile fig t ' r o de. , lievad that they were doing all that they eou'",,,hioli, prive the operative classes of this country of that lutec t more than charity or l e gi s l a ti v e protection, eoael at of their real g oo d—h e mean t th e com mercial prose that conntry.—(Cheers.) • 1 Mr. BROTHERTON said that this ntles . ,- ° it eel agitated the country for twenty-eight yettKonu, ,: ta iolf high time that it should be set at rest. He ` e ' o ort' concurred with the Noble Lord the Member for 10 i,• shire as to the limit of ten hours. He might' he te a oa taken in his view, which perhaps was 'the subject, but still he thought that humanitiO° and sound policy, supported his view, and ° ! 1 the grounds he justified the vote which he had gl' e rene e other evening, and which he was prepar ° 4 on the present occasion. And he thought ther e u bjeci. departure from principle in legislating upon this ° ors Of He was of a different opinien from the- Ill`r e - w oe Factories, and others well acquainted with the inatt er ae ry of opinion that human labour in connection with m ac h o ter warn not free labour. Besides, they had already e it -eontracojity, fered. Before there was any legislative interfere.nfici.teea was customary for factories to work fourteen e r „ T eta hours a day; and Lord Kenyon, in the year 1819, ' sh ire in the House of Lords that the factories of La na w bea • workedfourteen hours and a half, a day. Tll lls r est there was no legislation there excessive labour - w e dr Of vied on. It-was said, too, th a t if trade was Pe r o free and unrestricted in factories, there would:01"1g36, mend for legislation. Why, in the years 1 835 t so arid 1837, when trade was rather brisk, there C eo• less than 3,000 convictions for infractions of the :.; ‘ , O / tories Act,-,anclaheeptialties paid amounted to Even now, aettire d.nnt moment, they found fen it and married women working fourteen hours a tt was said that it was wrong to lay any restrictions tiro, labour. He reminded H on . G e ntlemen that a. ree le d tion was laid on labour in one case, at letiat. by t he a oa 'highest authority, " Six days shalt thoulabour, an c o ( the seventh thou shalt rest." That was a law dire) opposed to the political economist.—(llear, bee-itemti they carried out their principle to its highest bouts if they found that fourt een , fift een , or si xteen ' pa . per clay did not enable them to compete with foreigar titans, thej must then work on the seventh dIY• )05 0. hours a day he thought was sufficient for rattn „ 'i v-t ioncl or' child, and with that length of time' it would that the business of factories was quite t he! He was sure that if all worked a . moderate t}.. He Ile would have nothing to . f ear from cornpeOtir,: ai ssY might, perhaps, have somewhat differeat•vieni w, ss ioin on this subject. He might, perhaps, make ab ll . o ter" "which wield be hold' of bythOse who went fl e el' minable labour. •13itt he did not care for that. they mitted that if they decreased the luinit of labour. nie must increase the cost of m a n u f ac t u res. But, %h e, ; as qUestion was who was to bear this ? He had w e n). calculation with regard to a particular rain ee e doe' amount which would be lost in consequence of the r tion of the hours of labour. Therefore, sahnitti n g • 5 , it there would be a reduction in the amount of weg e t list was necessary for gentlemen to see in what wel a i s lis would operate. . They purchased foreign 'fl a nor tel , , which were manufactured in this country and e i v (/' in competition with foreign manufactures. 7 course the difference between the price ° o b. raw material and the amount which th e Lytett tamed for the manufacture when it was e.st " pits; was the amount received for labour, interest of °with and profit. In order, therefore, to compet e t$ i 0 foreigners, they continued making ireproveineehoest machinery. They had reduced the hours • d frost from seventy-seven per week to seventy-tr/P , ,, te d,.-W" seventy-two to sixty-nine, without, he bau ° ,4 o l tee juring their commerce. In 1816 they expo beljered millions of pounds of cotton t w i s t ; in 1843 they exported 113 millions... e .(Hear, hear.) pu' ll " regard to the wages of those employed in cott;,, t , the there had been very little difference indeed. . I , o st tb ° • last fifteen years the money wages had been e- id in. tame. He had procured returns of the wages,P, s ha t the number of factories in 1832, and he Ruth; average rate of wages for men, women, grid working in mills was from 9s. 6d. to 12s. per bee mbe r 0' had also got returns in reference to S 1111 ,„1 th e factories in the year 1844, and he found ti re s average rate of wages was nearly the stune4t,4ob little more than in 1832. There was no trade ▪ dtet wages were so regular as in factories, and " o nsew", because -in factories great numbers were L c „„ . . together. As in the army and in the navy', se could not be altering wages every day. Whe ther ea rn e ' were brisk or slack, the wages continued Abell!) th e c a Persons who were employed separately-- - tok e '_„. fe': stance, the case of the hand-loom weevers ol eo obliged to compete with each other. This The -lowered wages ; for-the manufacturers would OP .$ 11 4 times are bad, and if you cannot take less w, e o g l e r eadf cannot give you work.' In factories, as he haa . „ to th! said, there was very little fluctuation with regar", ig reP wages of persons employed in factories. Now t',„, 0 8 t end of this legislation was, he conceived, to Pr A ° " - , Is; young ; and this could not be done unless they bad which embraced all ages. 'The reason will. '7 l ii./r, &rent Acts which had been passed had fo r ' efficiency was that they had- Only, ° f children, and for persons o f 16 or 18 years 101 er whereas the great object was to legislate for all Thsi 21—that there should be one uniform time for at'' vice i Was the great object which he had always baw d M oab and he believed that. legislation of this kinbbeliel benefit both masters analAperadyes. He did 1 1 , 01 ' 0 1.01 that the wages of the ope ra ti v e wo uld be ree ol :oo, , ' this measure.—(Hear.) If they were, thera fai eto• - ;' day in the week on whi c h th e o p era ti v es worked bread tax ; and if they fo un d thet - they could Ft. t „ 9 " • pete with foreigners with ou t t a ki n g off that 7 ; 4 ,4* even the tax upsni_ cotton, they must ha, tr e ,.,,P make the necessary sacrifice.--(Hear, thought that great philanth ro py h a d been in,l t a .; by Hon. Gentlemen opposite in coming forwol,, ! rho' vocate this humane measure ; and he thought t"„" . O.; nation would feel that it was their duty to P!° (- 0 taw • ther,- if necessary, by rem ov i ng a ll th os e restrictiotgesti, burdens which pressed upon the manufacturing ins itte He believed that by passing thi s Bill they lo u 05 0., s; satisfaction to the operative classes, and set thi s r o pror completely at rest, and make the people gelle". l .' s a ; perous, contented, and happy. With these Ti e - • % ahould-certainly vote for the Bill.—(Cheers.) nti° ° • Lord 3'., MANNERS said it h a d b e en his int` neve give a silent vote on this Bill ; but after the cl ef Pr which had been thrown out by the •Hon. ige n3 - Manchester; he could not adhere to intention' which Hon. Member had asked him if in the short teu e d e,, he had made in company with his. Hon. Frie'„' any b 1 'Members for Canterbury and Sandwich, he stivr i e"' v e which would bear out the harrowing picture a f to the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorsetsl;ire• ' .110 0 ' great pleasure in telling him that h e did not.--to o ese hear,' from the Opposition benches.) -1f hst 'h i e; • I would permit him too fve . a general detail 0 1 ,_`' w on'y •' 1 2 ,; saw in visiting theae7iteat establishments, t' e ll tool ," • state that their general charaeteristics were 2 S roe!' of well-built cottages of two stories each, with t-6' ffer tir on-each story, with large windows, w i t h plentf of seAr .ture, with capacious back-yards, and with on itter hilli ° Vf ply of coal and water—all at a rent of three s pilt? a week, which, he believed, was generally stolt e i s ione, the wages. He saw, besides, most minute suPei,, of t,' „- every part of these establishments on the P 3 ,. ‘ ,.`" r yhOui, manufacturer. Every shop was licensed by hinl; was dependent upon him for the exercise of u' s .„ 0 00 11• r f and for his very existence.—(Hear.) He entirtitcoty red with the Noble Lord (Stanley) as to the diTh' t arriving at anything like sound conclusions e ' be ° o ll l, l sanitary condition of the manufacturing elass es t i,b nl", if he was convinced that an appearance of be' L '; 09 t , exist notwithstanding its absence.—(Hear, hea r 'i s oll cheeks and blooming lips might be produced 01 00 hee l , over excitement as by genuine health. He hae l ,,,,coar I tation in sayingthat the appearance of the Y„on'' . l,ealt!L in the manufacturing districts was generag b e d So much for the appearance of the people. ' e fl eerigi i ,f that the wages of men, women, an d children.:' oo o o 9s. or 10s. a week. Thirty shillings was the j . ll ,i s r the inhabitants of a cottage, which would eol,r t i' n ee." •1 - vide the conveniences and eomforts of e: l ` s o ,er - ° - 1 ,1 (Hear, hear.) He had thus endeavoured to 0 13 be itef' - general challenge of the Hon. Member for Mon e rt ieels i ; and he would now proceed to notice a more Peirlie, se :One. The Hon. Member asked him if it was - th ti" had been rep . orted, that they had had some tailt l ''. l he re agricultural immigrants, and he wished to ka 3 7 /0 ""tierl ) suit of that conversation? Now he (Lard l the f ° ,i fund, in a brief note which he took et the tiina , t h a t,, s '" o lowing allusion :—" One cottage we entered f e lon 7, 0 . a woman from Hampshire, with ten childreu lie se lc,:;s • came. When asked if she would like to e She shook her head, laughed, and said ' NO' u ltiat r , cooking dinner for her children, when the/ 0 , 1 ;1 0 - 0 , he out ,of the mill ; it was beef and potatoes.' -;;L shebaco pp o l do t from the Opposition benches.) Now lie to be enabled to pay his tribute of praisa•t ° t ho se f li f , j of those great and wealthy manufacturers w hesr"o- tories he bad visited.—(Cries of " be 4 , 1 4 But he must now remark that ''''ssa" a inst"" thus stated did not, in his opinion, m ilitate e g ais proposal'of the Noble Lord.--(Hear, hear.) l es posal was to limit the period of labour for t , ere , :; s ths t l; young people to ten hours. 'His statenten!_„„ c ileti •; owing to the mothers of families being a°.l-700a end work twelve hours, that depl o rable disorganlz e ' w hich ';, reverse of the order of nature had taken P. , had described with such painful lieved the statements of the Noble Lord - -_t ° • ~„1 tially correct.---Olear, 11, 0 4,) What he 51, Tom: seen Bolton, contrasted with 'V., be had the contrast Dv sho r• t .shovved him howle4t:VPt - be a t e $ the spectacles exhibited in two places situate particularity substoo distance from each o ther. It was said w e ' d , would be reduced if this Bill were',....P ° " d s :,,,a that the opinion of the three or four hum ~ fa you , 0 facturers who had signed the petition in .;'' s bo ans i, He believed that the Committee could wi.P.,aqi s iriett humanely, accede to the proposition of his 2 4 °W ort . g f and it should have his hearty and cordial 117 do t 0 would advise the House to consider what p their decision upon this question would bale' country. The hour might be atb u t the House would—not only in practic e ', _ e „ r esel theory and name—cease to be the wall _ tires of the people of England. -TA iseth°, • entreat the House to reflect upon what baPPe f i., - tb° t hs last three years... Had they Jfarned 11 94 1i tf and rho Nort ga d thea manufacturing" insurrections agrarian insurrection in 'Wales learned nothing' fro rk tki,,igilagrutions and Suffolk, and other par`fs of the country, end counter-cheers.) If the House ccolatVA" 4` ' .... re ;. Ai' 1