The Sun. — London, England, 1836-02-24 00:00:00

Lord said that such conduct ought net to have been pursued by any Minister of the Crowe. A Noble and Learned Lord, unless be (V scount Melbeen ae ) very muc h forgot the debates 1 which had taken place be this point—a Noble''and Learned Lord who had taker a most prominent part in all the discus sions on the Bill —had slid that he and his party objected to taking this pe;wer of appointment from the Crown ; but that if it were to lee taken away, Ministers ought to be at liberty to take wisest advice they thought proper—the advice either of the inhabitants of the town or of the town council. In adopting the course which be did, his Noble Friend had only followed the course recommended by the Noble and Learned Lord to 'whom he ( Viscount Melbourne) alluded. Although Ministers were defeated, they were not convinced that they were in the wrong, and they still thought that the opinions of the town councils should be taken, and that they ought to appoint on ly such persons as were recommended by those bodies. Ne w the Noble Lord contended that the Ministers were wrong in this respect, inasmuch as bo considered that the town councils would be so heated by animosities and party feeling that it • would be highly improper to consult them ; but their Lord ships would recollect that the Noble Lord, by his own argu-. ment, showed that, as far as Tory town councils were concerned, th e y were perfectly in the right. The Noble Lord said that in Leeds great error had been committed in the establishment of the town council of that borough. Now, in the first place, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, as soon as the Corporation Bill had passed, made a scale of the population of the different boroughs to be affected by its provisions, and be determined to settle the nureelser of Magistrates that each 1 should h rye, according to t i eat scale. Accordingly 24 were ' allotted to the larger' boroughs, and four or rive to the smallest. The Notie Lord at the same time made a rule by which it was intieeated that he would not appoint any attorney or brewer to_ justices, and i n com i ng to such a resolution he stated that he did not mean anything disrespectful to those two resp ectable prof ess i ons, b ut the Noble Lord's reason was suffiej'ently obvious. The Noble Lord accordingly wrote a lettnr containing the intimation in question, and requiring a het of the persons qualified to be entrusted with the com mission of the peace. This course was adopted by the Noble Lord to allay any political feelings which might have been excited by the elections about to take plate, and by the ge neral state of the country, or by the peculiar circumstances of the period at which the elections were to take place. If he ( Viscount Melbourne) were to say what was the prevailing feelings of that period it would be very much in the manner used be the Noble Lord. The prevailing feeling was not so rauth with reference to the great parties in the State or to ge netal political opinions as with reference to the old corporations. Those bodies were the objects of bitter jealousy and hate— jealousy and hate arising, perhaps, from their possession of power, but, at any rate, producing the most disastrous con sequences ; and the object which the framers of the measure of last session for the regulation of municipal corporations bad in its' introduction to Parliament was, to abolish those feelings, and one of the mahe arguments which he had em ployed in its support was the unanimity and quiet which would be its result. Now, that being the case, those feelings of jealousy and dislike existing towards the old corporations, was it improbable, was it unnatural, was it not rather to be ex pected, that those persons who were wont to form a promi nent part of the old corporate bodies should not be included in the lists of magistrates proposed by the new town councils ? Considering that the object which the Government had in view in the introduction of the measure was to produce in the municipal boroughs harmony and content, he asked Noble Lords opposite whether it would have been prudent, whether it would have been consistent, in them to have obtruded ue . ne e the new corporations persons who were admitted to be objects of very general jealousy, suspicion, and dislike ? He entirely concurred in the opinion expressed by the Noble Lord—it was most desirable that the appointment of magistrates should be made withoet any reference to party feeling ; but it was not to be expected that such a result should at once ensue from the meastere, especially considering the hotbed of politics in which it %vas ene . endered.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) What ! ens the ?atilt all on one side ? Was there anything to justify that triumphant response to his observations ?---7( Cheers. ) The Noble Lord opposite had been pleased to say that he would not cast imputations upon any one which could with equal fairness be retorted upon himself. He (Lord Mel b 'Arne) wished that the Noble Lord had thought of that when he was making a speech during the recess at Shef field—a speech whi c h he could assure the Noble Lord he would not have made with respect to him (Lord Wharn cliffe)—a speech which threw out the foulest and most un grounded imputations on him, and the Government with which he was ebnnected.—(Hear, hear.) He knew that there had been much warmth and violence in various political conflicts ; but he did think that he had read as much exhibiting extreme violence, as much of imputation and excitement, urged in the speeches of several Noble Lords opposite, on various occa sions during the Parliamentary recess, as had ever been used by any person, be be who he might. That, thee, which he had stated was a sufficient reason why so few members of the old corporate bodies should appear in the new lists of magis trates. It was not to be expect al thrtt a Bill, conferring new and such extensive powers, should be acted upon without much violence and a certai n degree of partiality ; but he en tertained a confident belief that those animosities and dissen tious would in time be softened down, and eventually utterly removed; and that the Bill would produce in all the muni cipal boroughs a fair system of representation, and afford them tranquil and good government. The Noble Lord op posite had throughout assumed that the persons appointed as magistrates were unfit to discharge the duties of that office.— (No, no.) But he begged leave to say that he understood from his Noble Friend the Secretary of State that they were in every respect fit persons for the office, and had been selected by him solely with regard to their qua. lifications for the perfoemance of its duties.:—( Hear, bear.) With respect to Leeds, the first list, recommended by the town council, wa.3 supposed to be composed entirely of per sons of one cleess of politics; and a representation upon the subject having been received from Leeds by his Noble Friend the Secretary of State, that Noble Lord immediately selected five others whose political opinions were opposed to those of the present Government. The Noble Lord opposite had said that the additional five were of the same political opinions with the others proposed by the town council.—( Hear, hear.) But at any rate his (Lord Melbourne's) Noble Friend had imagined them to entertain different political views ; and in any case where the number of magistrates .might be found in sufficient it would be competent to appoint others more fitted for the situation. In reference to Liverpool, the only charge brought forward, as far as he (Lord Melbourne) could learn, was that none of the old corporators had been nominated. He did not like to characterise political opinions ; but he cer tainly did believe that the list for that borough did contain the names of persons supposed to be supporters of the present Go vernment. In reference to the borough of Wigan, he was not acquainted with the circumstances of the case ; but the Noble Lord, in that instance, went upon the assumption of the unfit ness. of the persons ay. - painted to the magistracy. Lord WHARNULIFF E—All we ask for is an inquiry. Lord ME LrsOU RNE—In the case of Rochester the town council were divided ; no Magistrates could he chosen, and a representation having been made to the Secretary of State for the Home Department that magistrates were wanted, his Nohh Friend certainly did appoint six persons to the office, one of whom, said the Noble Lord opposite, was the brother of the Comptroller of Customs.—(We understood Lord Wharncliffe to say "No ; the Comptroller himself."). Well, that was a matter of fact. His Noble Friend, however, though he had felt it his duty to appoint magistrates, had left the case open for future alteration ; those six had been ap pointed only for the immediate transaction of the necessary business, and it was left entirely open to the Government to alter at a future period the constitution of the magistracy of the town. That course had been taken in conformity with the principles Which had been found to prevail in that House, and in Conformity with their own expressed opinions upon the subject, and the principles upon which they had acted, a course calculated, as he believe), to give real effect to the Bill, and to afford satisfacelon to the Corporations, by providing for them a fair arta impartial administration of justice. With respect to the specific motion made by the Noble Lord, he of course could have no objection to produce the circular letter written by 'his Nobl e F r i en d .—( H ear, hear.) He could also of course-have no objection to the production of the lists of rnagieerates ; but with respect to the second part of the Noble Lord's motion, calling, for the production of the lists sent In by the town councils, it was a point for the Noble Lord to consider whether he would press it, especially as it had not been pressed for in another place. That list was in the natom of a confidential communication ; and if it were laid before that House, Noble Lords must be aware that some names would appear as recommended who were not appointed. Now he begged to urge on the Noble Lord whether it would not be casting a slur upon those persons to have their names laid upon the table of that House as the names of those who were rejected. He knew that the Noble Lord would say that the names had been already made public, so that the list was no loner a confidential document; but he begged the Noble Lord to consider an observation which he had hiseeself made iii one part of his speech, viz., that he trusted that the proceed ings of the corporate bodies would in fio:ure, be carried on in a better spirit. Let Noble Lords tP2,ce that into their coneidee ration ; let them remember tbet though at present the tint - nes were made public, yet that wou ld not always be the case ; the Members of the Corporation would become better cogni zant of and better able to perform their duties ; and Ni;ble Lords would theet do well not to break in upon the confidence which would in future be preserved, in order to procure unne cessary information—information without which every object of tbe Prey ant motion would be sufficiently an swere d. H e trusted that t'ae Noble Lord would not press that part of his motion, to the rest of which he could offer no opposition. The Earl of WINCHIL SEA said that the Noble Viscount ett the head of his Majesty's Government had endeavoured to attach to his Noble Friend (Lord Wharneliffe) an imputation which be had never made, against certain of the lista nil Ma gistrates, on the ground that none of the old edeperators were who had been appointed were teal party. In the case - equally divoi almost exclusively o . f one politi council were leaft.ochester the parties in the town it was agreed that no t• s e t here was no corporation . ; and Noble Lord, the Se.cieltarti m agistrates should be sent in. The y for the Home Department, in su ch a case ought not have selected s i x of one party, but have professine- th e in cluded in his some with, if not the majority, at least an euaSlaimt e o p f ol h itical opinions en. The Municipal Corporation All of last t ses e s t i o on wn w c L u ld n , - tmdoubtedly, be an instrument of power in the hands of his Majesty's Government ; the ma gistrates were t o b e se l ected with reference solely to party feeling ; and there Who could doubt the Parliamentary influence of was no one magistrates ir. It municipal borough ; every Noble Lord must know very we l that they : did p ossess ver y con s id era bl e P ar li amentary influencel; anef - thus thhonly effect; of the Bill would be to increase the political power of his Majesty's present Government. H e trusted that his-Noble Friend wouldnot withdraw any part of his present m o ti on; t h e li st, the production of which bad been objected Fto, was not, he maintained, a coy, lential list; it was already made public, and could not, thereforeiz' now he refused on any ;;rounds of confidence. There was one doctrine laid down in the course of his speech by the Noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government which appeared to him (the Earl of Winchilsea) most strange and unconstitutional. The Noble Viscount had said that their Lordships had altered that part of the Bill which vested the appointment of magistrates in the town councils, and had then added that though Parliament had decided that thy clause should not constitute "part of the Dill, vo.- ;is Ma- I I iesty's Government had deemed fit in act upon th e princi pie contained in . that ele. uste wh y ? it sea s use l ess f ar 'hate Lordships & I t crate on any measureae.lt C'. it for I'atluun ;t to sit at all--if arty individual holding at any time te e reins of Government might be at liberty to saT, ;:,u have made such an alteratiou, but, nevertheless, in spite of that, we will act upon tl*. principle which you have condemned. The Duke of WELLINGTON rose ) Mad WA My Lords, I must beg leave to suggest to the Noble Viscount opposite that he has totally omitted in his consideration of the present question One . very important printiple, which was frequently laid down by that Noble Lord, and other Noble Lords on his side br the House, particularly a Learned Baron vs - ho is now absent, during the discussion upon the measure last session, viz., the extreme importance of dividing the administration of justice from the mulieipal government of the corporations—the extreme importance of earning that principle into effect by the Bill then under con. sideratiun. It was with that motive, my Lords, qua for the furtherance of that object, that I gave my vote in favour of vesting exclusively in the Crown the appoietntent or the municipal magistrates. The principle of the exclusive nomi nation by the Crown having thus been assented to both by this and the other House of Parliament, I centeas, yLords, it does appear to me that the Noble Lord the Secretary of State far the Home Department ought ever to have been induced to make that declaration which he did in the other House, respecting the course which he should think fit to pursue in the nomination of magistrates; in the propriety of that declaration I cannot concur, because it is a decla ration entirely inconsistent with the principle of the mea as it received the Royal assent; and because it is entirely inconsistent also with another principle of law, whioh is this—that it is the duty of the Lord Chancellor e ttnd not of the Secretary of State, to advise the Croton as to the appoint ment of mag strates. I do not gay that he may not take the advice of this council or that, but I do say that it is my Lord Chancellor whose duty it is to advise the Crown upon the sub ject—that it is my Lord Ohancellor who is responsible to this and the other House of Parliament for the appointment of per sons fit and proper for the administration of justice in the l i country. The nomination of the present Magistrates has not given general satisfaction. The statements of the Noble Lord himself have clearly proved that it was a party nomination.— (Hear, hear.) Is there any man in this House who does not believe that it was a party nomination ? And these are nomi nations made by the Secretary of State, while the Lord Chan cellor is the person who ought to have advised the Crown as to the appointments. This, my Lords, is a subject well de serving the serious attention of Parliament, because I do say that the conduct of the Noble Lord the Secretary of State is quite and irreconcileably inconsistent with the principle of the measure. I know that the nomination of magistrates which has been made by his Majesty's Government has produced very great dissatisfaction in many parts of the country. There are many Inrties who feel strongly that they are not likely to have j l :stice fairly and impartially administered to them—to fiave their rights anti interests duly protected—or their affairs satis factorily administered. Under the circumstances, I beg also to return my sincere thanks to my Noble Friend for having brought the subject under the consideration of the House. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the Noble Duke who had just sat down had thought it right to remind him (the Lord Chancellor) of his duty. Of that he did not complain ; but he mould take the liberty of stating that he was fully aware of the responsibility under which he stood before the Noble Duke had thought fit to remind him on the subject. It was singular. that the Noble Duke should have thought it necessary to remind him of his duty in that particular instance, since on a former occasion he (the Lord Chancellor) had stated pre cisely the same doctrine with that laid down by the Noble Duke. The Noble Baron ( Wharneliffe) had urged that the responsibility attending the appointment of magistrates rested upon the holder of the Great Seal ; but then, in the case of counties, the Noble Lord held it to be a dereliction of duty not to take the nomination of the Lord Lieutenant. It was impossible for the individual holding the Great Seal to per form that branch of his duty in any other manner than by applying for advice to those whose local knowledge enabled them to form a more fair and accurate judgment upon the fitness of persons for 'the office, than he himself by any pos sibility could.—( Hear, hear.) In the case of counties it was natural to apply to the Lord Lieutenant as a person best " calculated to acquire the necessary information for arriving at a correct conclusion. It was then the duty of the Lord • Chancellor to consider well his advice ; but if, after due half, or that 'of his crib EIJ I Jr fCnotin.tin the right ,r ftc (.;rows:—(Cries of ",l-tear.") His Noble Friend hhd done th4t. Whia he (Lord Lanidownej %%els sure futur e Ministers Would dil--=prOnrei hi the ilritt iristtirJ:c; ad vice And iiihitinailori from local (i , tiarter-4, btit always .reserying the right to inquire. for theinselveS., It. mast lie abundant ly evident, h . ciVtiet-er; tii4 (+4d eite4t anticipated from the not be produced until the qualincation; to .—aarg,e the duties of a magistrate were e s timated t!pon principles totally , detached }}ft ,',4„ ye:ln t - t• 1 1.6 1 4. Ori.1!8 ;1:8U -) At !!'id f!.t.4. 1- 2- • Siued, that would he the 'vie* *hie', Parliament would take 'OI" the subject': the ricti while the 68rpilratoH tbe.rnselres also *odd tittq. prinelpiil ti4scti dfiti6 perm letn athity ire whitii he ( Lord Lansdewne) lived, immediately after the utmost excitement had prevailed, and but one month preceding the recommendation I:vat sent to the tiolli6 Mlle*, there beilig . a 'decided majority of Whig AlertillOrt In the town councils the Very first acct df that council -was to tend in a list consi . stiitt; about an equal division Of Whigs and gonser- Vatives Now, le did rty that ehhibitibtli of such good sense and feeling doerYed to be encouraged by his Atjestv's Go vrrtirtkent--(Cilecrlng)—and he knew that the sole orlieCt of his Noble Friend was to soften down those party feuds and animosities width were so detrimental to the due administra tion of justice. Lord WHARNOtArPB replied: He quite agreed with many ol_.” , :,•l'Vatithis that had fallen frOni Noble Lords On the opposite side of the noose t it was indeed most desirable that. party spirititetnd animosity should be entirely banished from the consideration OF the appointment Of Magistrates ; but he could not concur In the statement that, in every instance in which any interference had taken place with the recommends- tions of the councils, it had been exercised in favour Of the ConserVative party ; the case of Guildford was an instance of directly the contrary course. There was one point in the speech of the Noble Viscount (Melbourne) to which he should at once allude—he meant the reference that had been =de to a speech delivered by him at Sheffield ; but he must In' the Noble Viscount, in the first instance, to be more explicit in his attack—he begged to ask to what part of that speech the Noble Viscount had alluded? Viscount M E LI3OURNE—To the whole of the speech and to the inference which had been drawn, that his Majesty's Go vornment had given up their opinions to those Gentlemen whom the Noble Lord was pleased to designate as Radicals The Noble Lord said the Radicals had given up none of their opinions, and therefore it was to be inferred that his Majesty's Government had given up theirs. The Noble Lord said that for the sake of power, for the sake of place, and he believed the Noble Lord said for the sake of the emoluments attached to it, his Majesty's Government had made this sacrifice. At least he had seen that statement in other speeches, particularly in a speech made by a Noble Lord, a near relative of the Noble Baron, viz., that, for the sake of power, place, and base lucre, (it was so, and he could produce the report) his Ma jesty's Government had given up the whole of their prin ciples.—( Hear, hear.) He did not object to this ; everything was fair in politics —every sort of abuse ; but at the same time, when Noble Lords of high character and great in fluence, most amiable manners, and most Christian princi ples—when they found themselves betrayed in the violence of the moment, and by the heat of party animosty, into casting such base, odious, and groundless imputations on others, they should at least take with some allowance the attacks made upon the Government by any other or opposite party. —( Hear, hear.) Of abuse, then, he did not complain. But what he did complain of in the Noble Lord's speech was this, that the Noble Lord inferred that he (Lord Melbourne) and his col leagues, and those who acted with them, had given up their principles entirely into the hands of other persons for the sake of obtaining place and the emoluments attached to it. H e begged to tell the Noble Lord that his deductions had utterly failed, and that his powers of reasoning, great as they were, had, at least in this case, led him to a false conclusion. It was not true that they had sacrificed one principle or one single opinion to any individual or party whatever.—( Hoar.) Lord WH A RNCLIFFE did not wish to indulge in any thing like abut, or to draw any unfair inference. If the Noble Viscount called it abuse to accuse his Government and the Whigs generally of having sacrificed their principles to other persons, he begged to say he was not singular in that opinion. _.( Hear, hear.) These other persons themselves had pub licly said so. Had they not said, "We have not changed our opinions —we have not gone to the Whigs : the Whi g s have come to us. Th e Whi gs now are no t the Whigs of other days—they have changed their .. pr.c.p.es, an d not we ours."—(Hear, hear.) Had the Noble Viscount and his colleagues rejected the support of those opinions ? —( Hear, hear.) He asked the Noble Viscount to tell him what was the difference between the opinions of that body of persons and his own ? He had a right, then, to say, that the Noble Lord had given up his opinions for place,' but that he had done so for the emolument attached to it was a very dif ferent thing. He doubted much, indeed he was almost sure, that no such words had been uttered by him. He did not be lieve it. He had never believed it. He did not believe that the public men of England were often swayed by such motives. But he might have said, and he believed he did say, that this Government could not have taken or continued in office, ex cept by the means and support of persons holding extreme opinions, and this he would now repeat. Now, with reference to his motion, it had been said that he objected to the majority of the magistrates being of the same opinion as the town coun cils in the respective boroughs ; but this was but natural ; and, therefore, he had no right to find fault with the Govern ment on that account. The Noble and Learned Lord had mistaken him entirely. He never said any such thing. What he said was, that a principle of exclusion had been esta blished—that principle to eradicate which Reform had first been called for—that principle the alleged adoption of which had been made a theme of the loudest complaints against former Governments, and which it would seem to be the intention to perpetuate under the present system.—( Hear.) It has also been objected, that he had not grounded his mo tion to-night on the impropriety of any of the appointments that had been made. Why, he had guarded himself, espe-. cially in his opening speech, against being supposed to en tertain . any desire to make charges against any individual. There was no individual whom he had implicated. He had certainly referred to one who was a collector of the customs of Rochester. He did not object to that gentleman per sonally. He was no doubt a highly respectable man, and, perhaps, fully qualified for the office of magistrate. But his situation as a collector of the customs, in a place where a great number of the cases brought before the magistrates were connected with the collection of the revenue, made him one of the last persons who ought to have been appointed. The Noble Viscount had said that 'Rochester was placed in great difficulty, in consequence of the division of the town-council on the subject of these appointments. To this, however, he would not further advert. There was a Bill now before the other House to amend the Municipal Reform Bill, which would, he hoped, guard against such a transaction in future. As to the general question, the observations of the Noble Viscount and of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Wool sack had not in the least degree shaken his opinion. He had made his motion, he confessed, in the first place, with the hope of checking this practice in future ; and, he confessed, from the Noble Lord's answer, that he had done well to do so. He was also greatly comforted by what fell from the President of the Council, and he believed in future so partial a system would not be pursued. There was another reason. They were all aware that they would shortly have before them a Bill for the reform of municipal corporations in Ireland. In dealing with that Bill he loped the House of Lords, he hoped the public, would take warning by what had oc curred in England. An attempt had been made to pledge them to pass that measure on the footing of the same principles as those of the English Bill.—( Hear.) That attempt their Lordseips resisted, and resisted success fully. That the boroughs of Ireland required reform, even in a higher degree than those of England, no man was more ready to confess than he was, and no man more ready to pass any measure for the purpose of effecting that reform. But the experience of the present Bill would induce him to take especial care to support no Bill which might be perverted to party purposes, br be made the instrument of throwing politi cal power into the bands of a faction.—( Cheers. ) Having said thus much, he would not add more than that, as the Noble Viscount had objected to name the persons who had been proposed by the town councils, he would not press that part of his motion, since, if he required their names for any particular object, he had only to turn to the newspapers pub lished in the respective boroughs, and he would find them immediately. Ile would therefore give up that part of the motion. deliberation, he could not concur in that opinion, he was, then, bound to act upon his own unfettered judgment.,--( Hear, hear.) If that doctrine, then, was true with - counties, 'was it not equally so with towns ? They must go for advice to those whose local information—( Hear)—rendered them the best judges as to the qualifications for the office. But what said the Noble Lords opposite ? They would urge us to go, not to the majority for advice, but to the minority, and to act upon the opinions of that minority. It did so happen that in cer tain counties there was a large majority of persons of one way of thinking, with a Lord-Lieutenant of the same opinions, and there a very great majority of the magistracy would be also found of the same opinion ; and the result, therefore, was, according to the Noble Lord's opinion, that where there was a majority cf persons of oneopinion, there should be found also a majority of magistrates of the same. But when the Noble Lord came to the question of towns end not counties, be was then sur prised that, when it was admitted the great majority'of the people were liberals, there should be a great maim ity likewise of Liberal magistrates. In short, with the Noble Lord the doc trine was excellent in respect to,counties, but quite the re verse as to towns. He admitted, however, most fully, that it was very proper that there should be a fair admixture of per sons of both parties; and lie might be permitted to state that the interference of the Secretary of State had never been em ployed but for the purpose of infusing into the constitution of the body a certain number of persons opposed in politics to the present Government.—(No, no.) Whether the Noble Lord believed him or no his statement was as much entitled to credit as those of the Noble Lord himself. The case of Dover had nothing whatever to do with the appointment of magistrates; In reference to Rochester; it was peffectly ob vious that by no possibility could magistrates have been appointed, the town council being divided, but in the me thod which h a d b een pursue d by - his Noble Friend the Se cretary of State. For his own part he was perfectly willing to admit the responsibility which - rested upon the holder of the Great Seal, a responsibility from which he would not shrink. The Noble Baron had admitted that there was no complaint against the appointment as far as the individuals themselves were concerned. What then did his objection co me to? Why to this--assuming that there was a prepon derance in the lists in favour of one party, he complained that the uniform leaning was to that line .of politics opposed by him self and Noble Lords on his ( Lord Wharncliffe's) side of the House. Now, could the Noble Lord think it advisable that the magistracy should lean to the opinion of the minority? In respect to counties, he ( Lord Wharncliffe) admitted the con verse ; and he (the Lord Chancellor) would again ask, why should not the same principle be applied- to towns? In con clusion, he begged to say, th;st the charge brought against the Covernment seemed to him to have fallen wholly to the ground. The Earl of RIPON said that he was -not disposed to doubt that in future the Government would be guided by principles which all would be disposed to approve. He could not, however, concur with the Noble Lord upon the Wool sack in thinking that, because it was consistent with propriety in the appointment of county Magistrates to take the advice of the Custos Rotulorum—( Hear, hear)—for he was the proper person for that purpose—therefore the same would hold good in respect to towns. It appeared to him that the cases might be as different as possible.--(Hear, hear.) The original and fundamental danger was in making appli cation . to the town • councils at all ; for what would happen upon the receipt of the letter from the Home Office, request ing the advice of the bawd euunell ? The town council would meet, difference 6r epinion would arise, there would be a divi sion' awl the business would become a mere matter of can. Vass6g. The result must consequently be to mix up the se lection, of magistrates with all the most violent passions ; and if that course we e persisted in—but he sincerely believed it would not—party prejudices and violence would grow to an extent entirely incompatible with the due administration of justice, —( float, 'wale) It seemed likewise to him particu larly unfortunate that the letter should have been written at the time that it Was, when the greatest excitement prevailed on the tu'lject. ile trusted that the circular letter of the Se crobry of State was nut to be taken 55 a general and fixed rule to guide the continct of the municipal bodies for were that the case, he should topsider the character of that measure, which lit hind %ealously supported in that House, altered, its bi'leilts destroyed, and its mischiefs enhanced. The Marquis of SALISBURY saki that the coMplaint was that the Noble Lord, the Secretary of State, having ta ken upon himself the power of the Lord Chancellor had so executed that power as no Lord Chancellor ever. had done. Not a single instance was on record of the nomination of a Lord Lieutenant having been set aside by the Chancellor ; and the inference therefore was that no Lord Chancellor had ever been able tb fix a charge upon any Lord Lieutenant in respect to those appointments. No Lord Chancellor had ever thought fit to interpose his authorita', and vet the Noble Secretary o f State, possessing no a pth ar i t y, had' Interfered in a way much mere etieteelve to the Lords Lieutenant than any Lord Chan cellor ever would have done. Upon the present subject it was to be remarked that there was a vast difference between the recommendation of. a town council, composed as it was, and of a Lord Lieutenant, a responsible officer of the Crown. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose chiefly with a view of alluding to an observation that had fallen from Noble Lords opposite ins-eferenee to a declaration made by a Noble Friend of his (Lord John Russell) elsewhere, and he begged those Noble Lords to understand that his Noble Friend had no in= tention whatever of declaring that he would set aside or disre gard the intentions of Parliament, or the principles of the Act itself. His Noble Friend was at the time deeply engaged in ',chat Noble Lords would admit to be the very laudable task of ..econciline - the differences then existing between the two branches Of the Legislature, and he (the Marquis of Lans downe) knew of no course which his Noble Friend could have adopted to effect that object, better than the one which he did purse.e, viz., letting it be perceived that, though that House differed from the other upon the subject, and though the clause ebjecteel to should be given up, yet there would be -an oppor tunity .afforded to the Government, and making a pledge that he wereeld avail himself of it liberally, of going for advice to that 4ot Tee from which the other House deemed the recom rnendatj, •)n should come ; bvit in so 49ing, neither on his own The motion, with that exception, was then agreed to ; and their Lordships adjourned at Half-past Eight o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 24. The SPEAKER took the Chair at four o'clock. Colonel PACKE took the oaths and his seat for South Lei cestershire. your of th e - Mr. Campbell, from the India-house, presented p apers at the Bar relative to the compensation of redueed officers of that Company. M M r r. H C r o il ! L e presented e s p e a n p t c c r d s t f l r s o o m p t e b t e i t i T o n r s e a in su ry f a . Birmingham and Gloucester Railway. GATESHEAD AND NORTH LEEDS RAILWAY, Mr. BELL brought up the Report of the Committee on this Bill, stating that the standing orders had been complied wi t h . The Hon. Member then moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the- formation of a railway from Gateshead to North Shi e ld s , Colonel SIB'F HO RP complained that in this case the stand ing orders of the House hal not been complied with. The Gal lant Colonel also complained of the personal applications which parties wanting to promote these railroads were in the habit of making to Members of that House. He looked at all these speculations with the greatest possible suspicion. If he were satisfied that any of them was for the public good he would be the first to sacrifice any private object of interest to promote it ; but he had a right to know that it was for the public good before he W3 , ,3 called on to do so. Mr. BELL assured the Gallant Officer that the Commit tee were unanimously of opinion that the standing orders had been complied with. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. PRIVATE BILLS.—(RAILWAYS.) The standing orders respecting private Bills having been read, it was resolved upon the motion of Mr. POULETT Titomsoia, that in the cases of the respective railway bills now before the frouse, for which notice had been given for the second reading on Monday last, the seven days which were required to intervene between the second reading. and the sitting of the Committee, should, be reckoned from the day for which notice appeared to have been given, as it the Bill had been then read a second time. MR. BUCKINGHAM'S CASE. Lord W. BENTINCK pfesented a petition from Glasgow ia favour of Mr. Buckingham's claims. Mr. TULK moved the second reading of the Bill for com pensating Mr. Buckingham for his losses in India. He did not feel it necessary to detain the House by any Observations TIIE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, 141131tVARY 24, ItM, upon thg measure, piopoged the itestiee of the case wag L s: t epparent to every on. Members , Ait HON: MEMBER made Some obsersetlon respccthi the Bill being a priVate One, and asked a question of Mr. Tulle, but it, as ii cjltie thR Port. Gentlernen's aiseweti was inaudible the gallery: Mr. 1,4 W eO,N felt it his duty to bring tifinet` 4 .1 4 . rat ice • 9f. tNe linuse th ' Griner .iii wriiels this case was got tie. Within a few we e ks tie ree . ei , :red, a letter, With' au inclo sdre; which he felt it his duty to read. We' n'taff- nee sir whiA he spoke na. an unusual and almost an liamentery t'in6 „ 4 d!ti l im 4 pVtitly'ns: He should read the enclosure to whi c h he alluded, ari a 1~•". 4d la:av'e it to the Hope to , say whether or not a case comint,4 iseNre it eh‘ .l.n;:etkistances. was worthy of serious consi deration :—" Mr. f3uctifi7:lMrti presents his compliments, and will feel obliged if Mr. Ofi; le.eloeed letter fruit ell to some one of his constituents, who IS AiNfain an espressieti ef-pehlie opinion in support of the recommen dation of the select committee in favour of his claim, which, notwithstanding, it still resisted by the East India Companv." He (Mr, Lawson) had not taken the step required of him, because, if he had, he would feel in some measure pledged to the principle cf the Bill, and he wished to:come into the House free to judge of the merits of the question. He was sure he only did his duty by bringing the matter under the attention of Members, mid he thought the practice of one Gentleman addressing another-to get op petitions, tended to lower the character of the House, and was more worthy of the American Conelessllian the Ori:isti Parliament. He should move, tnat the Bill be re id a second time that day six months. Mr, PO ULTE R had at one time doubted propriety of supporting the Bill, because he thought it a (Wittiest be tween the clear right of the gait India Company Directors on the she hand, to act as they thotegitt proper, and a clear speculation of the Member for Sheffield Oil illd ether, But looking more into the summum jus of the mattef, he found that Mr. Buckingham had been induced by the then Governor-General of India, LOrd Hastings, to enter upon the speculation, and to establish a journal Upton - the principles avowed and maintained by that Governmefit itt It was a most remarkable addition to those facts, that the oilly time the case of Mr. Buckingham was brought before a jury, he was honourably acquitted; and the explanations given by Mr. Buckingham to the Governor-General of India were de clared by Lord Hastings to be perfectly satisfactory. He might also adduce another fact in proof of the feeling which existed amongst those in authority as to the manner in which Mr. Buckingham's paper was conducted, A Noble Lord near him (Lord W. Bentinck), who formerly filled the office of Governor-General of India had expressed his regret that they had not a paper in India conducted on the principles of Mr. Buckingham's. These facts had completely altered the impres sions he formerly entertained with regard to Mr. Buckingham's claims. He knew, however, the abstract right of the Directors must always prevail over private speculations. But the prin ciple for which Mr. Buckingham then contended has since been recognised, and the charter of the East India Company is now placed on the footing which he so strongly recom mended. Mr. Buckingham under these circumstances was therefore entitled to equitable compensation. He might also mention another valuable testimony in favour of the validity of his claim, which was a declaration of Sir Charles Vorbes, that Mr. Buckingham had been an injured man, and ought to be compensated. This testimony, from a political opponent, was surely entitled to consideration. Mr. VERNON SMITH said it was the intention or the President of the Board of Control to have been present on this occasion. He (Mr. Smith); however, would repeat upon his .behalf the same opinion which he expressed last year, namely—that he did not think Mr. Buckingham had any claim upon the Eastelndia Company. He could not agree in the reasons given by the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last for altering his opinion—(Hear, hear)—nor did he think the opinion of the Noble Lord (Bentinck) went the length of saying that the East India Company was liable to that demand. It was true the law had been altered, but the East India Company should not be accoun table for what took place before this alteration.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If the Honourable Gentleman oppoSite persevered in his motion, he would certainly support it. The East India Company were certainly entitled to be heard at the Bar of the House. This Bill had been set down in the paper of yesterday as a private Bill, but it had been adjourned to this day as a public one ; so that the Honourable Gentleman had two strings to his bow.—( Hear.) The question was not whether the law was good or whether it ought not to be altered, but whether the East India Company bad a right to do what they bad done to Mr. Buckingham tinder that law.—( Hear.) He did not think that House the best tribunal to decide upon the merits, not of Mr. Bucking ham's legal claim, for he has not made any, but the equity of his present demand. He had applied to that House for re dress, and he had sent out letters to Hon. Members to induce them to come down and vote upon that question, in a manner which he ( Mr. V. Smith) thought should not be made use of for the purpose of influencing Members of that House.—(Hear.) If the proposition was made by any Hon. Member to put off the second reading of the Bill, he (Mr. V. Smith) should certainly support it. One argument that had been used in favour of the Bill, was the course which Sir Charles Forbes had taken with respect to it in the Court of Directors. But many Hon. Members must be aware, that although Sir Charles Forbes was a hot Tory while in that House, he was a very Ultra-Radical in the Court of Directors.—(Much laughter.) No person so closely scrutinizes the proceedings of the Board of. Directors as he does, and therefore the mere fact of his taking that course was not proof of the justice of these claims. He should only say that if any proposition was made to put off the second reading, he should give his individual vote in favour of such a proposition. The SPEAKER explained that there was nothing irregular in the postponement of the second reading of the Bill from yes terday evening. Mr. VERNON SMITH explained. Mr. ROEBUCK felt it a very painful duty to oppose claims of this sort put forth in a popular assembly. But as a member of the British Parliament, and on behalf of the peo ple of England, he must oppose that Bill. ' Every person - establishing a Press in India was bound to submit to the re strictions and the discretionary power which was vested by the Government in the East India Company, and the Indian Go vernment. The people of England had vested that discretion in the authorities at Hindostan, and they having acted upon that, it was now unfair to come before the people of this country, and ask them to pay compensation to any indi vidual who had transgressed the restrictions to which he was legally subjected.—( Cries of Hear, hear.) It was calling upon the wrong parties to pay for him, and that he (Mr. Roebuck) for one, would not consent to. Let Mr. Buc kingham appeal to the people of England—( Hear, hear)—or, let the Government include his claim in the estimates, and come down with a proposition to that House to vote a sum of Money as compensation ; but, under the present circumstances, he (Mr. Roebuck) would not support the Bill.—( Hear.) He had himself run the risk of a prosecution in this country by a publication which lie avowed. He:said lie had not broken p c e i n e s a a v t e i o na?n d — ( H m e r a . r, Hetherington i n the law, Ims. had the Government prosecuted him to conviction —had th e y got a clear verdict against him, did the House sup pose that h e wou ld h ave come f orwar d w i t h a c l a i m for corn - gto li n had e (M good (Mr. )sda a id that M t r a -compensation as th e H onoura bl e ' M em b er f or Sheffield— . (Hear, hear)—and he would advise these Gentlemen, if this Bill were carried, to bring in their Bill—( Loud Laughter) —for compensation for injuries sustained by them under a bad Act of Parliament.—( Hear.) He would be the first to vote for a Bill establishing a free Press in India, but he would not be a party to giving a man compensation for a breach of that which was law, by the discretion vested in the Company by an Act of Parliament. 'Mr. ROBINSON bad voted ag ainst the Bill last year, and he had se e n no r ea son f or altering his opinion. This was an alleged wrong done to an individual by the Government of India, who were placed in the situation of guardians of the public Press in India, by an Act of Parliament. They had a perfect right to act. as they had done, It was proved before the House last year that the Hon. Member for Sheffield had been repeatedly warned that the course he was pursuing was calculated, in the opinion of the Government, to injure the English interest among the natives; yet notwithstanding those repeated warnings, lie persisted in acting according to his own views, and persevered in the course he bad pointed out for himself. Under all these circumstances he ( Mr. R.) felt b ond to say that all the suffering which had fallen upon the Hon. Member and his family had been brought upon them by his own conduct. Several petitions had been presented to that House in favour of that Bill He did not know what representations had been made in order to get up those peti tions, but he would have considered that, much more weight would have attached to them, had the money been coming out of the people of this country, in place of those from the people of Hindostan. He trusted that the House would not allow the Bill to be read a second time, in the hope, or upon the under standing, that the Bill -would be opposed by the Company be fore the Committee. They would be recognizing a most mis chievous principle, that of the right of Parliament to interfere in the disputes between private persons and public bodies. Major BE AUCL E RK was one of the Committee to which Tie Bill was referred last year, and, with the exception of one Member of the Committee, was unanimous in its favour. The case did not stand as stated by the Member for Bath. The Hon. Member for Sheffield was not only banished from India, but his presses, and all his other proeerty, were destroyed so far as he (Mr. Buckingham) was concerned.—( Hear. hear.) No man, in his opinion, was more entitled to compensation than the Hon. Member for Sheffield ; and he felt convinced that had not Lord Glenelg expressed a desire that the parties • should endeavour to settle the matter amicably—( Hear, hear) —the Bill for compensation would have been passed last Session. He thought the House.would lower itself in the es timation of the public if they refused to listen to these claims. He knew nothing of Mr. Buckingham further than in his public capacity, but he never would be the ma n to sit still whil e so g ross an injustice was being committed a g ainst an y indivi dual Mr. PEASE, after having attentively considered the state ments of counsel at the bar, was decidedly of opinion that the House was bound to grant compensation. Mr. WARBURTON rose amid cries of " withdraw." H e thought the House was called upon to interfere, as no man could doubt that great injustice had been perpetrated towards Mr. Buckingham. As to the statements that had been made that the English people should pay Mr. Buckingham, it must be remembered, that the Central Government of India had committed the injustice, and:in his opinion, therefore, the people under that Government ought to pay it. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, The House divided, when there appeared—. - For the amendment • 125 For the second reading 81 Majority against the Bill -44 RAILWAYS. Mr. WAKLEY presented two petitions against the Lon don and Brighton Railway Bill. Lord SANDON presented a petition, signed by the pro- iri seven different Railway Companies, praying that the most minute inquiry should be made into the merits 01: the several ilnillikations .for Railway Bills, and that the Hotise would afford to thy' petitioners full protection in the picOpertiy in' *hith they had CYtYoted their capital and ener g y. He should in i#4 merely that it be referred to t he Select Committee appoiritefi‘si night on raitwayg. ..DUNDgb HARBOUR. Sir fing . RY PARNELL bahi#lo.rttp the Report 0,:), the Bill for enlarging tht4= . flarbour of Dundee, B MON G'; CORN. PGWER rose to call the attention of the floct§e to the circumstanda VOer,Which . a sale of earn for tithes and foOt took place in the Coffritr . of Wexford, with the assistance of pie air and and police, and wideit tO'ro. was afterwards ptiblicly burnett hij the purchasers. The fltiti. Member thought the circumstances tiacilo which the sale had taken place should be inquired into. He wisiitl therefore to know whether the Aifolnents that had gone - forth Went trite, and whether Govern ment wele pfornti to take any further Niers? Lord MORPI4;PIi Paid that the infortnation that bad been received, relative t 6 the subject alluded to by the Honourable Member, was, that My Sub-Sheriffs of the county of Wexford had ordered the attendance of a large body of police and some of the 75th Regiment to attend A ole by auction of the property of the tenants of Mr. Rowe, in the county of Wexford. - No sale took place ; the tenants ten dered their rent, but they refused, to pay the tithes ; the agent of the gentleman was on the spot, and a stack of wheat was burnt in his presence. As to the other question of the Hon. Member, whether Government were prepared to take any fur ther steps, he begged to say that -Government were demand ing further representations upon the subject. ,Mr. O'CONNELL wished to ask the Noble Lord whether gr. Roe MI6 a Deputy Lieutenant and also a Magistrate ? Lord MORPE'TIi said that he was Deputy Lieutenant. An HON. MEMBER—And he is also a Magistrate. CARLOW ELECTION. Colonel MILT EN rose to present the petition of which he had given notice relative to the Carlow election. He trusted that the same courtesy Would be shown to him as was tteually given to Members of that House. No man, he beileigki, had had more foul charges brought against him than he hat... Wear, hear.) If the matter was merely personal to himself, Should feel that the present was not exactly the time to bring the suhjeet forward, but when he con sidered the reason for making the charges, he thought he should not be doing a duty to himself or the electors of Carlow, if he did not put the House in possession of some of the leading and most important facts of the case.—( Hear. ) He was sure there was no Honourable Member would sup pose him capable of assertions which was untrue.--(Hear.) Indeed common sense would prevent him from doing so, in presence of such an enemy.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Member went on to say, conceiving, from former misrepresentations, that it might be possible that an at tempt might be made to divert the attention of the House and of the public by an attack on myself and other landlords, I wrote to Ireland for an account of all tenants that had been ejected on my estate for the last five years, thinking that pe riod sufficiently extensive to embrace all the cases that could be brought forward. I have accordingly received that ac count. I find several of the same town lands mentioned in both I therefore, take it for granted that the cases arc identical hi my return and Mr. Vigors' petitioners', although neither names nor yet dates are mentioned in his. Having premised so far, the first name that occurs is that of Ballyteglea. This cute has been dwelt upon (by an individual mentioned with high eulogy by Mr. Vigors) at every election at Carlow for these four yearns notwithstanding the most absolute and un qualified contradictio6 was constantly given. The correct ness of his statements is soon likely to be put to a satisfac tory proof, for I have at length succeeded in serving the ne cessary law process on Mrs. Nowlan's partner in the lease. If the House please I will state shortly the facts. Her rent amounted to 861. Bs. 6.kd. An arrear accrued of 3101 3d., any part of which she was unable to pay ; neither could she properly cultivate the land. I sent for her, and represented this, stating the impossibility of allowing the land to continue longer in her possession, not benefiting her nor me. I offered to forgive the arrears—(Cheers)—and to make her a present of her cattle, stock, crop, and every thing upon the land, and a sum of money to enable her to look out for and take another farm.—(Loud cheering.) She returned home to consider, was badly advised, and behaved with the utmost violence afterwards.—(Loud cheers.) A person named James Corcoran was ejected from the lands of Bober more; he abused his land, and allowed the buildings to fall to ruin ; his rent was 581. Os. 2fd., arrears due 1041, 16s. Id., and this was the lowest arrear of any. Two persons named Terence and James Carty were ejected from the same place ; they likewise seriously injured the lands, and the house, an old mansion-house, was so completely destroyed, that it was found necessary to take it down ; the rent was 501. 3s. 3d., the arrears 2261. Is. 10d. One of these men, being a well behaved person, is allowed still to reside on the land, though no part of the arrears were ever paid.—( Cheers.) The widow Harold, who, by-the-bye, like many of the others, has been married for years, though she still retains, according to the custom of the country, the title of widow, was, with her husband, John Brennan, ejected from Kildrinagh, owing, at the rent of 741. as. 6d., an arrear of 3691 135., her husband having previously sold the crops, and run away with the money. —(Cheers.) A man named Murphy, holding seven acres, owing an arrear of nearly four years' rent, agreed to leave the land on receiving a sum of money, and being forgiven the arrears. I afterwards made him a present of his crops. --( Hear, hear.) For my own security ejectments were served. Long previous to my getting this land his sister, a widow, had come from a neighbouring town, and taken possession of a shed or outhouse by force. They carried on the war for a considerable time, each threatening the life of the other, to the scandal of the whole neighbourhood. At last Murphy forced her out, and threw down the shed, and I get the credit of it, although these facts are notorious to the whole country.—( Loud cheers.) One of the orphans, a young fellow, who had been ill, and to whom I, in consequence, paid a weekly pension, on his recovery was employed by me to take care of some land, and keep off the cattle of a neighbouring farmer, which were continually trespassing on it. That farmer very soon invited him to his house, and whilst my pasture was found very agreeable by the cattle he made himself equally so to the farmer's daughter; so much so, that she robbed her father and ran away with him. Such is the history of this widow and orphan !--(Cheers and laughter.) I have been accused of destroying the village of Nurney. There is but one village on my estate called Nurney, built by my father, entirely at his own expense, and I have expended some thou sands on it. The houses were slated and neat gardens at tached to each. Originally, I believe, tbe village was filled with Protestants. A great many Roman Catholics, however, since come in in their place. They are asked for no rent— ( Loud cheers)—nor ever have been, except in two or three instances, as a punishment for bad conduct. Ido not suppose that the whole amounted to five pounds. I do not find the ' names of Ballyloughan, Knockthomas, or Knockallard, in this list of mine. The first of these was recovered by ejectment in 1827 from a farmer named Kelly, he owing more than four and a half years' rent. It was let to one of the under-tenants residing on the farm, the brother of a priest, who afterwards rode about the country at the head of a mob, canvassing against me. Twelve mouths ago this tenant owed me an arrear of two years rent, and this arrear has not decreased since. I could ruin the man if I pleased ; but, notwithstanding my cruelty and bigotry, he remains in his farm still.—(Cheers.) All this, however, happened nine years ago, before any political or religious dissentious had dis tracted the country. In Knockthomas I know but of one farm that has come into my hands for several years ; the tenant was a Protestant, and could not sub-let. A Roman Catholic, however, got possession of it, and refused to give it up at the expiration of the lease. By way of annoying me he collected as many vagabonds and poor families as the house could hold, and put me to the expense and trouble of a law process before I could get possession of my property. I did not feel myself at all called upon to do anything for these people. The town laud of Schahanrane, where twenty-three families are stated to have received notice to quit, was leased to one tenant, who has been dead some years, at a very trifling rent. The last life in the lease, who was transported fur forgery, before the rebellion of 1798, has also been dead several years. These under tenants have, as I am informed, paid each so much per annum for the concealment of this fact, but, as might be ex pected, they have quarrelled, and the truth has come to light; as a matter of course and necessity I have served notice to quit, and if they are all turned out, no man can say but that 4cy richly deserve it.--.(llear, hear.) On the whole, I have ejected eight tenants in five years, being in the proportion of one out of 227 alleged in each year—each of these tenants on an average owing me more than four years and a quarter's rent. Not one of those mentioned in the petition was an elector ; but I have ejected one who was a freeholder owing arrears to a greater amount than any I have yet mentioned. This happened two years ago ; be has ever since resided in his house, paying no rent—(Cheers)—with his mother, a widow, and three brothers, desolate orphans. of the tender ag e o f be tween thirty and forty, strong able fellows, as capable of doing mischief, and as willing to do it, as the loudest clamourer for the liberty of Ireland could desire—( L ou d an d cont i nued cheers)—so much so, indeed, that I shall be obliged to have them removed, and very 'possibly afford a n opportunity folrvahnoole ther petition.--( Hear.) I am accused o f d estroy towns and villages. I have expended some thousands i build ing and repairing one, in endeavouring to make the people comfortable, and in educating their child ren at my-own expense. If I were resolved on obliging Rom an Catholics to leave in estate merely because of their creed I h ave , an d h ave h a d for y many years, ample opportunity of doing so, of which, however, I have not yet availed myself. I have at this moment a con siderable extent of land exclusively and for years occupied by them—(Hear, hear)—without leases—( Hear, hear) —some of them owing large arrears. If I had that antipathy to them which is laid to my charge, could I not long since have grati fied it without any one reasonably finding fault with me, unless it be determined that a man is to have no controul whatever over his property, arid to this point things are fast verging in Ireland.—(Opposition cheers.) But I rejoice to say that some of my warmest supporters are Roman Catholics, and this could hardly be the case if all that is stated were fact.— (Hear.) One townland, consisting of about 1,300 English acres, came into my possession ; three Protestants were the tenants—they did not reside on the land. I took it from them and gave it altogether t 3 Roman Catholics.—(Cheers.) This does not look very like religious persecution. With re spect to the real character of the gentry of Carlow, perhaps the state of the county before agitation commenced there may afford no bad criterion ; and a more prosperous, a more improving, happy, or contented population could not be found in the empire.---( Hear, hear, hear.) A tolerable proof of this was, that crime or disturbance was almost unknown, the best understanding subsisted between all ranks and - classes, whilst the land and all its produce bore a higher price in the market, and the peasantry in general were better fed, housed, and clothed, than in almost any other part of the country. It was truly called the garden of Ireland, it - - - The Colow Gentlemen, like others, may have their faults, bu rapacitj and cruelty have not been of the number. Our real . crime that we will not bow down to the image which D2llie l the king has set up.—( Loud cheers and laughter.) And for this offence we are to be cast into the burning fie r y furnace of public indignation, which is to be heated seven tomes hotter than usual, by the ruined towns and villages formed by the shrieks sod cries a 'widows and orphans.—( Cheers. IBut the attenpt will fail—we shall pass unhurt through these fires ; and if justice and truth be not a dead letter our accuse will have the benefit of them himself. The question is ilot whe.ther tie elector in Ireland shall be allowed quietly to oe ereise his franchise, but whether the Priest shall be opera,' allewed t o e!rive him like a pig where he pleases, and sell him to the highest bidder—(Cheers) —which must be the case unless the imdierd has the courage to step in. The power of there political Priests will be increased to a frightful extent if some measure now in contemplation be unfortunately per mitted to pas into a law.—( Hear, hear.) alr. METHUEN vise to order. When the Hon. arid Gallon Member was defending himself from any charges made a gaieat him it was competent for him to read from a written papa') but he (Mr. Methuen) submitted that the Hon. Member woe out of order when he read anything in de fence of others. The SPEAKER was :indersteod to coincide with the o b. servatious of the Hon. Merni;er fee Wiltshire. Colonel BRUEN resumed. the should proceed to state a few of the provocations which he had received.—( Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL rose to or , ler, Ile thought he could understand from the Hon. and Galli. nt Member that he was about to enter on the subject of the cot. 'duct of other landlgrds 'taint had also been in the county of Carlow, of whom comb made ? If so, lie (Lord J. Russell) thot. 'gilt it would be a departure from the rule laid down by the Cie.'ir, and prescribed by the forms of the House on all such occasion s- - ( Colonel BRUEN said—l am accused of driv 'ng from their houses here, in a wicked unchristian manner, neneteen fami lies, containing 101 individuals, with the usual libel propor tion of widows, &c. Now, what will any honest e lan sa y' when he hears that I never turned off one single human being, man, woman, or child, from this land ?—( Loud and long' -Can " tinued cheering)—that the power even to do so never wli° placed in iny hands but once ? And how did I use it ? The House hear:sall and now that I have told you what 1 did not, I will take the liberty of stating what I did do. This t oval land contains nearly 800 English acres. I receive 2211. 10s. 9d. yearly, not much exceeding one-cpurth of the value.—(Hea r ' hear.) The lease is for ever ; as long - , therefore, as the 'bead rent was paid, I had no authority or pretence for i n terfering . Ido not know that I ever was on the in my life. Tile owner of this estate, who, to the best of my belief, I never saw, as he lived in another county, became exceedingly era barrasseci, and was obliged to leave the country, A rre ars, 0 the amount, I believe, of 1,0001., were due, of her credit:ors were pressing, and it became necessary to me to .look tom r self. Ejectments were therefore served ; time Call on, n ° creditor found it his interest to redeem, and I had ev, ‘ l 7 Pr es :, poet of getting possession of this estate, and of addin °L i % hundreds per annum to my income, and that withot al",f 4 blame that by possibility could be imputed. And how di d t":" desolator of towns and villages—this tyrant,lbigot, persec te" fined--I use the exact terms of the Learned Gentlema ' 1 "" (Cheers) —with a countenance scarcely human; this tormt tors of widows and orphans—( Cheers and laughter)—t l its modern Pkalaris, regaling himself with the shrieks of his vie': tiros, this Tory, this Orangeman, this Conservative—how did' he behave ? What did he do ? The tenants on the land: were, I believe, exclusively Roman Catholic. He ordered: the ejectinents to be withdrawn, and the debt to be received = by such instalments as the distressed tenants could conve niently pay.—(Cheering.) I have made the following: memorandum on this point ; " The inhabitants bay" been ever since my most implacable enemies.—( Hear , '. and cheers.) Now, I beseech the House to mark the' truly diabolical artifice by which a retreat is attempted t be secured here, for to this, I suppose, is to be applied ' be p ostscript, " One of these town lands not being in the Fee; session of Colonel B. at the time the tenantry were ejected. Why then was it mentioned ?—( Hear, hear.) Would man who had a speck of decency, not to mention honesty or good feeling, in his composition, have first deliberately charged ano ther with committing a crime, have first coolly plan ted dagger in his back, left it rankling in the w o und, and then, in a sort of appendix, a second or third edition, have insinuated , or hinted that possibly the accused was not quite-so guilty, 1 1 °! having been exactly at that very time in a situation to commit the offence ?—( Hear.) I have now done, and I trust I hav e ' I convinced the House , even from the impe rfect information can now command, that most of the charges in the petition lately presented ere gross and wilful mis-statements ; and that the others are so distorted, that they scarcely bear any resem blance to the truth.—(Cheers.) I now sit do wn, confident l y submitting that I have redeemed my pledge, a'nd shown OA the assertions of the Lear:sed Member with reap ect to me are as worthy of credit as those be is in the habit of making.--- (The Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst great cheering.) _ Several Hon. Members rose to , addr ess the Chair Asame the sa time, but the cry was very general :or Mr. Hope. Mr. WA L L ACE had heard with great satisfaction th e statement of the Hon. Member.—Crie:: of " Order," " Chair, " Mr. Hope." The SPEAKER said there was no question before the House. Mr. HOPE said that the anxiety which he fe. l t to viadiel the character of his noble relative assailed in the pe f t o ct i° t u res - .. Mr. Vigors would, he trusted, serve as his I passing on their attention, and stand him instead of the' con fidence derived from long and well tried habit.—( Hear.) Noble Relative had be en c h arge d i n that petition, as 1 1 • 9 : c i Members were aware, and various accusations were la' against him. He (Mr. Hope) had informed his Noble Re - " lative of the circumstances, and had received from him the, fullest contradiction of the charges in it as affecting him self ;. With this necessary proof in his possession he (Mr. NW/ had come down to the House the next evening, but as the Hon. Member for Greenock had on the same night gig °. notice of a motion for an inquiry into the facts , he (mr. Hope) was induced to defer the defence of his Noble Re lative until that motion came on for discu,ssion. 11 1 Hon. Member had withdrawn his motion subsequently-'4°', what reason he (Mr. Hope) could not presume to say' e" he had, it appeared, renewed it again, and it stood for tbhat night. Under those circumstances, he (Mr. Hope) felt 03. t., he was bound by every sense of justice to say a few wor de the subject, as it concert - led his Noble relative—the more esP e.. e' cially as the House had heard the statement of the blo Member for Carlow with all the attention which was due to its importance.—( Hear.) On the day the petition was laid he" fore the House, in which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Vigors) had introduced, amongst others, the name of his Noble relative (Lord Beresford), as a cruel and tyrannical landlord , b e bad a personal communication with that Gentleman , in which he promised to afford him any satisfaction he could desire of the groundlessness of the accusation, and made an appointment 0 meet him at four o'clock for that purpose. Four o'clock came , hut Mr. Vigors did not.—(Hear, hear,) Neither did he send , nor write, nor did he (Mr. Hope) ever hear more about it fr oo Mr. Vigors.—( Hear, hear.) The petit. on stated—" From th e town lands of Ballinkillen, the proper!e o: Viscount Beresforcit where the system first commenced, the were evicted at on e° thirty-nine families, amounting to 205 i . scli:viduals, including fifty-six widows and orphans." These lands of Ballinkille n, he could state, were out of lease twelve yoars ago.—( Hear , bear.) They y were then divided into six fa.ems, which wer e placed in the hands of three Catholic and three Protestan t farmers, who have ever since remained in quiet posseesion, an d continue there at the present day.—(Hear, hear.) From Clonegach, by the same, twenty-five families, amovnting one hundred and sixty-one individuals, including thi rt y widows and orphans." Here his Noble Friend found a similart necessity for effecting a better partition of the lands amolg s the tenantry, keeping them all, notwithstanding, and his e ffeefr ing this was the only act of compulsion he thought of employ." ing, or his tenantry could charge him with.—( Hear, heard To conclude with the two remaining town lands, Slyguff Clomater, the evicted population of which was stated in 0 , ° petition at fifteen families, containing ninety - three individual°, including twenty-three widows arid orphans, he could assure the House that only two individuals were going to quit. O le had got notice to quit, and the other was going to quit him" self.—(Hear, hear.) Both individuals were Prote stants.--- ( Hear, hear.) He trusted that, after thi.. l explanation; did should hear no more of his Noble Friend's pGlitical and religi;i ous hostility to his Catholic tenantry.—(Loud cheers sin counter cheers, repeated.) Mr. O'CONNELL said, as the name of Mr. Vigors had A been mentioned—( Hear, hear)—as some stress bad been on the name of that gentleman—(Hear, hear)—it was ( I° l ` . " • clear that the transactions o ught no t t o b e a ll ow ed to remai ni l its present state.—( Significant cheers.) If any falsehe whatever were containerrin.the petition it ought to be exposed'e' —( Hear, hear.) H e wou ld therefore feel it his duty to nnove , , when presenti ng some p e ti t i ons i n connec ti o n with this subj e t ; entrusted to his care, that the whole subject should recei ve t fullest inquiry. —( Hear.) ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the House, of -- rising, do adjourn until Thursday next.—Agreed to. ORANGE LODGES. Mr. HUM E then rose to bring before the House the Me' tion relative to Orange Lodges, of which he had given noticej It would be recollected that on the 4th of August last he r, brought forward the question of Orange Lodges genera';.„' . The evidence taken before the Committee appointed to quire into the subject of Orange Lodges afforded to his min, so much evidence, and so many strong facts, that it hadj.c pearcd to him absolutely necessary that the last session of 1 - 7: liament should not terminate without the House coming,`,4 some resolution on the subject. It would be recollected in pursuance of' a motion made by him, the evidence, so W I e - 0 it was taken, was laid on the table of the House. He submitted to the House certain resolutions, the object of vrt, e e was to bring the nature and tendencies of Orange IA" - clearly before it, with the view of u • e• upon Parliamen l A th : decision of a question, the settlement of which awar e " h i e him essentially necessary to the welfare and peace °fit country. The Noble Lord at the head of the Home 11- ; partment, however, 'suggested to him that it would be to o limit the resolutions to one branch of the subject the Orange Lodges in the army, and to take the opinionof tu wo g House thereupon. Knowing that the system was mar ta fearful inroads, and seeing that it was gradually tending l a sap and undermine the discipline of the army, he complied with the Noble Lord's suggestion. He now begged to move t , T O) , the resolutions agreed to on the 11th of August, to whic h he n the motion was adjourned, should be read. He should be submit a proposition, to which he considered it the duty i t es , House to lend its most attentive consideration, with the v of remedying what he could not but, consider a serious e io , existing . at the present moment in this country. (The r e r s :ele tons of the 1 1 th of August having been read, the Honou „ at Member proceeded.) In consequence of the Address of House, his Majesty issued orders to his Commander-in-cblei bette,. to the effect that any military officer or soldier who atteede"