The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-02 00:00:00

'IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. - ---,-----------• - - ! 'l,, ROUSE .OF LORDS; March 1. . t e Earl of SaArresnuity, in , the absence of the, C hancellor, • took his seat upon. the Woulsack ? r tlY before Fi ve o'Clock. . Map , M ESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. . : 11F.sengers from the Commons' brought up certain "- . . LANDLORD AND TENANT COMMISSION. .. . se, T f r d., .MONTEAGLE, seeing his Noble Friend in his ;1 1 7 , !fished to put a question to him on . a subject in • b j .i u the public at large, - and more :especially the, Irish 0 , felt a deep interest. In putting ills question, he lq,c‘ ed to state th at h e entertain ed - no, distrust of his t ri) W t e Friends' He beli e v e d th a t hii "Noble Friend was h,' diligent i n th e d i scharge of the public duty with 1" he had been - entru.,ted ; but tne public were and Tng.with the utmost anxiety towards the Landlord v .. meant Commission in Ireland, and he wished to i t ,` 'lts Noble Friend if be could inferm the House when s4ssuld•be likely th a t th e p u bli c .ould, be put in pos 7tll on of th e results of their labours: :'nite Earl o f DEVON had ~ no difficulty. in . an- . the qu es ti on •,_ and he was glad that anoppor that'l had been afforded him -of stating why it was. ..Of Was present then at that moment, instead i niid e ' l s in Ireland. It so happened that he had , Ar rangementseen ee ,7 to go to Dublin for the purpose of, 40„, , :in s g further ev id ence , an d. h a d i n t en d e d b e ing in . li s s‘" l at the p resen t ti me ; ' but a few days since hei s e 7 ot te eived. a subpm n a f ro m the Court of Queen's peech, at th a c an ding him to attend as a witness in a criminal •cese, s o next Devonshire assizes. - Ile. had endeavoured „Set the evidence which he should have to give, made -sites of co n s . , admission, but the . defendant appeared. to ' tittmer it essential to the case that he (the Earl of ~ I le .2Y I ) . should be examined, and. he was afraid that ,ov er be detained in England • until the trial was _. lah,, r ,' Ins absence, however, would not interrupt the er e of of the Commission. ' His colleagues were hi s " w efed to proceed with " the ' inquiry during the s „ a r bs enee, and they . had ,consentsd to do' so; se e ,, - ' ° re, no delay would take. place in . con hot-esoll,e,e of his detention in . England.. ~ He was that crY that he - had the opportunity of stating ipubr -e was not idly or unnecessarily neglecting his . 4103 'e duty. It was generally supposed, although the las; Psit lon was ineorrect; that , the - only busi s Th s s t °I the Comthission - was to collect evidence. , no " d w as a most important . part. of the duty, aels ' s ' l ' 4 ; but any person. who . took . upon , them- 44 . 1 " the responsibility of offering aliggestiOn as to Y pr o . th ek , Posed change in the existing law, should make Amin elves acquainted with that law; and therefore a not , s to di " o ctant part of the - duties of the Commission was • tis s A7at the information on, the subject 'of the rela- ' ass es - ,T,ween landlord and tenant, which was already Shi - "J'e to the public. lie could assure their Lord . ,„ps that the taking of evidence was not the only also be t hat devolved OR the Commission ; :and be tais a C, e gged to assure them that thelaboars of the Coni eihie—n would be prosecuted With' as little " delay tesPes-- - c OTAHEITE. . • , %r ss , BROUGHAM rose to move for copies of the S.S l ,4londenee 'which - had 'taken: place between, the C r . missionaries in the South Sea Islands and the ssd ' i nnient, relating to the affairs •of Otaheite. He se„crstood there .would he no objection to the produc-. T ` TI that correspondence: ' ti lle , u e, Earl of ABERDEEN had no , objection ' to. pr.o s•hO' the correspondence.. Last year ,a Noble Marquis, hi re w as not now. in his place, had. put a question to srlti was Earl of :Aberdeen) connected midi: the -subject,. esd h e had assured the Noble Marquis that he need be "• er s ki ss; -o anxiety as to the manner in which the gse ' ° naties would be treated, , for ..the French Go aMent had assured him' that they' should en- • free eve rY protection,had - guaranteed to the& the - 4 exercise of their functions. papers,which•laad been Len the table of . the Honse s sbowed that' stiO haul • th7 s , , t he ease,. and he had great satisfaction in stating sie ns ,",F had not received any edmPlaiiits from tbeill:iss by l% in those islands on the subject: It *as only 1 4 r 3 3 since that lie had received a .depiitatiop from • • tha t - '",hdon Missionary Society, Which had as"su"red him po the re was no .cause. ' of complaint . ans , that th u " against, the French "Govertuiseet.--(Hear.) tlieriel'renth •aUtho r ities bad treated them' entirely - in the the er Promised by the Convention. With, respect to. btssreeent proceedings' of the . ,French - Admiral at sserrite,-he had. only to say thatsthts -acts of that officer I fea r'' N di sOffned by the -French: ; Government.—(Near, tee -an thought it right -to -state..that :this had aet u e s ti tirely done by the spontaneous and .voluntary h ad °,- th e - French.—(Hear.) . He <LOrd Aberdeen) 444 not written .to her Majesty's representative in . Paris, - the n ot one wo rd of remonstrance • h a d . b een offered. by fronsisbassad or himself. For he (Lord Aberdeen) was th e fe e ‘o l e first c onv i nce d, th a t w h en th e thing w . asknown, svh st osi on. the part of :the Vreach . Government of Iv es , was g due to their own . honour, anclst9 ;justice, E itat sg e d lead to that 'result.— (wear,, hear.) Ile made this , eh : 4 ot as explicitly as , poisible ; but he- was quite . erec s "T'd to see that the Ministers of the King of the sa t i - n e ° would be assailed 'by the war party with emu voura of bavingsuccunibed to 'Britain. - Theswar party (g a d not fail to avail themselves of the rppcirtunity— t svh, tt f , hear)---and ia the . same manner he thonght that ' nit C e r had been done; by :himself, and,whafever lad' thi s :en done, would be set .;doWn by thepartiSans _in - arc cone, of the French war party, ,as -abase and cow , • isa.i.Y, .ohniission to Franeesss(flear • hear.) . But the tun e f e a j r , t 3/ was as little to be regarded' in_Frenee, as for to,./„It was in this. country.-s,-(Hear.) . -.. 'stat e ,: '3IIOI.IGHAM expressed .his . satisfaction at the hi s s ;slent of his Noble Friend. E very one who knew parti es Friend would—and he believed all men of all as if each would—be as mucn satisfied •vyith that statement, each individual knew. the facts or his own, ssroper - th e Pers onal knowledge—atear, pear)._ The effect of F r ; f°ll and peremptory manner in which his Noble Its ~,,". had ma de the statement .would be a complete a e Z^er to the war party on-the other side of the Chan- Ifs 2 1 , e would not say more on - this subject, because he • tlial - ' l° llished and pleased to find'that the existence of l• ri chPaarty was a lt oge th e r disavowed ; and his Noble ° at --- and himself were accused of creating that party , °f , t sheir own imaginations---alear, hear, and iS laegh) 'tam e : 4° Y,cried ' Name name," whenever allusion was .1 4 04 ;: ci thena. They said that he aid his Noble Friend bop under a - delusion that any. War part' existed R as 7., fors the lasts three years. They said now - it )folo d lh , a cre a ti on o f th e i mag i na ti on , a n d hoped it • sek sic .notsrove a 'realitylsefore the end of she. present he returns were then ordered.- ~ • , .:.: & Th e. I ,' CORN-LAWS. • . fo, s a s Earl of YARBOROUGH presented as petition '' he ' a Place in L e i ces t ers hire, against any change in l' n c ° l U-l as , ~. OT E c, oTANT AND NATIONAL EDUCATION ~', k, i oh xr (IRELAND)..:... ' I ' '''' 4 -41 r . f NORMANBY gave notice that on sm. quis o • . the x „,`o' next he would present% a petition, ,wliich, al . latt e r local in ,its character,, related.to. a subject of ge 14th,,Verest. The petition complained. of the conduct . assi 4 ` - uoard of Charitable Bequests .in Ireland. •In re, • ' 4 14; t 1 ° ,..1 ) ,i7 certain legacies for educational purposes to es arsc' c 'ners, svho were clergyrnen of the Established s `ge ts ,''', The refusal was groandecl on the 4doption of slf es - 1 , Aolsal system of education by the' - petitioners.— !he, ti;,' He thought it his duty to. call the attention of 7 4 tts e . -u e to this case of great .hardship,,.and he would -v° thein the hands of VOyesnment.. T h matter , tom - P - S b NEW HOUSES OF- PAIILIAMENT. - e n 1 1 ''''ROUGHAM_ gave notiSe, thet son Monday ho kr ,e would call the attention of, the House to the Th: s t ,a Of the new Houses a Parliament. -s . . 1--t ° ll se then adjourned.. ••• • • • me 1 11' HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 1. % # S Pi► o iFtsittat took . the Chair at a few minutes before . LA . , .. ssi t; ai r • • 'RAILWAYS. —• • . . • N g i ' l ?i, UEATftcurz moved the second:reading of t 4 l , l u ury Branch RailwaYßill. s , • ,- . 14 ,,i1l s e,,'''s WALL said that , he s Was oppoSed . to ,this °Sits,. sgether, and he was disporped Ws cliter, lli oppo, 14' th 1 ,•,,, h e present stage. lie Icertainly *mild oppose 44 1 03 i",lm,l'eadin g , unless very 'material atterations were tier tne 'Committee. • : ' - , ' • , titt A . T .,.„ . r a - few w d in explanation, . from- , Sir G. Nit tt eClTE the " B s ill was, read a second time; and IVA , Talc Y . be committed. I 'leo b e : _ork and Searbofough Railliay Bill - was read a ' 4l tie, and referred to a Committee. Th. SEVERN NAVIGATION BILL." . . 1 :' -- is 13 1 1 1 was read a second„tiose, and ordered to be , e ' t oltted ~,. Alti l i i s 4 tr, RI, P s _ P OLITAN CIRCULAR RAILWAY. n ,'' las o „ - „ 441 -NDISH presented . a :petition from Hairpw, s „ - 'e at„, -4 ° I a Project for the formation of' a railway on 7 . 0 , - " olia °B • Pheric , principle, to: be "Carried round' the • I:,Soir, It3 s , Q r has.„, - - s'OLTRT said that he thought it his duty, }Pos e 7 1 ',"an of the Standing • -Orders . Committee, to ati 40t-oce reception of this petition. Tlin.petition . ers tttre e ot °lll Plied with the Standing Orders, and they t e Per entitled to have theit application entertained. a ilw in n s sc who first took, this project. of the circular its Tway 1,. ,1 il l fi , 'land applied for dowers to construct a rail iliies. the ordinary manner, and upon establiSlied Pio ' Z°listruf,S, obsequentl they propissed that , it should be r ti ' l eisf ' ed 'Ton what was called. the "atmospheric kfit,s; e:' He was unwilling to encourage such irregu 44!leht ''',ss'ataurntle,d besides, he Us .of the projectors were racti s Cs and the project appeared to be altogether hi I r. Si t, ' A l i% • 4 hazd ISII said that thepetition was placed in .'4l'a 848 h . • cl he'was , 1.44,, e queutl e was coming into the House, an , e - a tsbj eet Y.' not prepared to give any explanation on , sft er • a les . it7ed„ t o. ultory conversation; -the petitien wits or 'Lista), C o uPon. the table,-.not not being referred to ~. ""turaitte s • . -1- .• _ s o „ , 4 ',d . 05 5 .„..„ c .,. * CORN-LAWS. . • . • _ Pr t ;'!'S' of N o ' - ' 4O TON presented twotitions from the .. • th _Yie t f.,.,_ rth umberland;one signed by 359 . persons, AZ %use" Protection to agrieultare, and trusting that 4-Coro:rid, discountenance the proceedings of the kr aw League, te kv ; WAL T, , GAME-LAWS. l'a'ne is i lk 4 •CE moved that the petition from the esl awB, , nfrew, Ayr, and. Lanark, on the subject of It be printed with .the Votes.—Agreed to. NI r ' GLA D RAILWAYS. ' • ti . et co STONE brought 'up the Report of the 1 1: 1} ?rt be tnr . ai ttee on. Railways: He moved that .the. 4 zi l th Prin ted with the Votes, and he trusted it would NI e hand , t to. 3 of Hon. , Members to-morrow.-- Oa 14 -t IlitpQ tt the the 4,0,. THE STATE TRIALS. .. k biv f er "n of Mr. S. HERBERT, that the Order 1.11, 10 I', buf , ,,ine into Committee of Supply be read, a xid•j - 4 3's e s i d ` - '°M.BE rose to " move for a return of triad e °he 4 - e - it s_te Frederick Bond Hughes, Charles' Rose, akit m; b 3' Th era " n, on account of any communications ea s e . ° l l iii - r ii '0 .Government relative to the repeal in ' als o the'and, distinguishine- the amounts paid to k ße t t e res i4i N d •f es °. f the several payments, specify copies with • ~ Perods. at - Which_ they " anY 'lath - lotions gii , eni to tithe aia ( of P ric l64 ' . 04, tbA t ' 0 I'l 1 0151)' a l O te' ,4 rs •,0 01'" THE SUN, 'above nanied•Frederiek Bond Hughes, Charles Ross, and' John Jackson," with respect to the duties to be per formed by them in Ireland. Also, a return of the amount paid 'to the above-named . .for expenses during their attendance at the trial of the Queen against O'Connell and others. Also, a return of all moneys paid. to the late or preSent proprietor or proprietors, mana gers, conductors, or persons in the employ of the Morn ing Herold and Standard newspapers, or any of them, on . account of communications or information made or given. by the said parties, or any of them, to the Govern ment, in . refereOce to the repeal agitation in Ireland; distinguishing the tithe's at which the said communica-• tiona or informations were furnished, and the period at which the several sums of money were paid; Also, the name or names of • the shorthand writers appointed to furnish the Government report of the proceedings at the trial of the Qoecu against O'Connell and others." He said, in rising to call the attention of the House to the motionof which-he had given notice, he did not wish to obstruct the moron of the Hon. Member for Rochdale, nor to de!ay the House from ping into the Committee of Supply. He rose - in the "exercise of the undoubted right every. Member of•that House possessed, of calling on the Government, before v oeng any additional supplies, to exp7ain the manner in which it had already applied any of those sums of money that had been placed at the disposal 'of the Government, for the purposes of the public service. -More especially was it the duty of that House to look *into these matters when there a as good reason to believe that the sums - already voted hid been applied in a man ner not creditable or honourable. He believed that the object of the recent State prosecutions was, in the first place, to vindicate sv hat was •called the majesty of the •law, and, in the next place, to obtain an increased respect for the institutions of the country by inspiring public • confidence in the wisrioin and justice of the law.—(Hear, hear.) He had carefully attended to the debate which 'had taken place lately in that House, having reference to the State trials, mid he had thoughtfully weighed the evidence given at them, and he must say he found it totally impossible, in the whole transactions, to find any portion of them creditable either to the judge who presided, to the • jury who were impannelled, to the law officers who instituted the 'proceedings—to - any, indeed, of the parties concerned, but especially to some of those persons who were witnesses on the part of Crown. The branch of the subject to which, on the present occasion, he wished to call the attention of the House was, that relative to -the • conduct pursued by the Government towards - the press, and those connected with or em 'ployed by it. An arbitrary Government had two ways of destroying the liberty of the press -either by per secution, • or by corruption by straining the law against the press; or by 'corrupting the persons con nected with it. The present Government had pursued .both these courses. •: They were not satisfied with cor rupting the members of the press, but they attacked and persecuted • inch - a way as he was perfectly satisfied the law would not justify. That question, however, would be distinctly brought forward by an Hon. Mem ber_ at - a • future time . ; and he wou'd not, therefore, trouble the House with more than one observation in re ference to it upon the present occasion. He would just ob serve; that such a charge—the charge of conspiracy—so framed and.sosupported, itb ad been recently in Ireland, never had been, and never dared be, attempted in Eng -land.- It was contrary to the law, and that had been distinctly ruled so on a trial in the year 1840 at Lan caster,- not only by the Attorney-General, but by the presiding judge on the occasion, Baron Rolfe. They had seen in Dublin the strange sight of Mr. O'Connell being made responsible for articles published in Dublin newspapers which he never saw, and of making the. 'newspapers , and the proprietors responsible for speeches which otberS uttered and they never heard. At that trial the Attorner:General and Baron Rolfe .distinctly stated that the. only party responsible for the articles in a newspaper was the proprietor, and that even the editor .was not to be held so, although he might be one of the parties - Charged with the conspiracy. But this was not the : subject to which he wished to direct the attention of the . House. He wished to call their atten tion to - that portion of the subject relating to the _reporters who had been employed by the Govern ment, and those 'Connected -with 'the public press, who had been corrupted by the Government, to aid their purposes in these trials. He asserted that if the object of those prosecutions•had been to create a great moral influence, all the transactions in connection with them ought to bear the light. 4 the day, • and there could be not the slightest objection to making them public. He thought the- conduct .of-- the Attorney-General for Ireland towards Mr. Bond Hughes was most. extraordi nary, and he (Mr. Duncombe), in exercising his right as a Member of that House, in moving for these re turns, .did not in the slightest degree intend to impugn. that gentleman's conduct or' character It was quite clear, from the speech of the counsel for the traversers, that ..they acquitted him of any underhand :proceeding. '1 he party, therefore, who had most reason to complain of the conehictofthe Government was Mr. Bond Hughes himself. With respect to the mistake that. had . been made in the name of Mr. Barrett, it was quite clear that the Attorney-General for Ireland was perfectly aware of . it .; and it was - also quite evident that the Crown solicitor and his - Clerk were - also perfectly , cog ,•nisant _of that mistake,,arid could have rectified it by the dash of a pen, and thus - . pUt an end to the persecution to svhich that gentleman was . snbjected. It was also quite clear that Mr. Bond Hughes when he attended on the Crown solicitor - told him about the mistake with re spect. to the name of 'Mr. -Barrett. Mr. Kemmis, after Mr. Hughes had been indicted for swearing to the fact, still persisted in his .endeavours to have it proved.. He (Mr. DuncomLe) thought this most discreditable to Mr. Kemmis. In the Pilot news paper of the 26th of January it was remarked that when Mr. Barrett went to lodge informations, he had no means of knowing whether Mr. Bond Hughes was wil- - fully wrong, because he could give no in formation or explanation on the subject.—(Hear.) It was also remarked that Mr. Kemmis, the Crown So licitor, stated before the magistrate that Mr. Hughes was not in the kingdom. He said he considered the present proeeeding a most extraordinary one, for Mr. Hughes had remained several days in Dublin after he swore his information, and - ):et no attempt had been made to impeach . his veracity. The magistrate, it seemed, - refused the summons, because he thought that the, granting of it would prejudice the prosecution, , as Mr. 'Hughes was out- of the, country. Why, would the House—.would the country believe that Mr. Hughes left Ireland by the desire - of the Solicitor of the Crown? -(Hear, hear.) - was told that unless: he left Ire land his life would riot be ,safe. Why should not his life be safe? Could they not have made his life safe imme diately, and have quieted all the denunciations directed against him by stating publicly that he had not corn .mitted wilful perjury ?,---(Hear, hear.) He understood from the friendS of Mr-Hughes that he was not at all aware that he was to be a party to. informations, and that he would rather have cut off his right handthan consent : to be a party to any.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Hughes was not a person who would descend to become a common informer. The fact was, he was deceived by the Solicitor for the Crown, having been told that he was. only swearing an affidavit, and verifying his notes, whilst it _turned out that he was laying an information. • —(Hear, hear.) -Was such duplicity ever practised to . wards any individual as was practised on this, occasion towards Mr: Bond Hughes? When Mr. Hughes was sent 'over, - he was desired on his arrival in Dublin to go to the • Attorney -G eneral, It appeared that the Attorney-General being out he went, to Mr. Brewster, and from Mr. Brewster lie received his instructions. It was for these instructions that ,he - now asked, together with the sums of money that had been paid to Mr. Bond Hughes .; not that he believed that any aura of money could compen sate that gentleman for the anxiety of mind which he had suffered, and the injury which he had sustained during the: period that he regained under .a (Hear, hear.) The Attorney and Solicitor-Generals, and all the parties connected, with the Government, were perfectly aware that Mr: Bond. Hughes had rectified the-mistake which he had inadvertently committed. He said, therefore, 'that Mr. Bond Hughes had great reason to complain. He (Mr. Duncombe) would like to :know .what sum Mr. Hughes. received as compensation ; and whether .he was as well paid as another individual, he meant Mr.. Charles Ross.. He (Mr. Durncembe)• had now done with Mr. Bond Hughes, and he hoped that he had • said nothing -derogatory to that gentleman's character, ,as it had not been his intention to do next came to the -" Carlisle patriot."— (Laughter.) Mr. Charles Ross, it appeared, was em ployed by the llforning Chronicle newspaper as a repor ter, and in his evidence, when examined by Mr. Ser geant Warren; he - said that he arrived in Dublin on tbe 3d of' July. lie said he came to take the notes of Mr. O'Connell's meeting at Donnybrook. ' He was asked, " Did, you •come of. your own accord, or was it suggested to. you ? I do not ask you who it was sup_ gestedit to you." Mr. Ross—"lt was suggested to nie. ' -He was then asked, for whom did you attend?" Mr. Ross- 7 " I attended on the part of the Government." It therefore appeared that he had been sent over by the Government, they knowing-that he was in the employ of the Morning. Chronicle, a paper opposed in politics to the • Government.- Iu the course of cross-examination, this question was pot to him, " 'believe you said you were sent . over to Ireland by the Government's" Mr. Ross—" Yes, I was." "'Now Government is a comprehensive word, have you any objection to tell what member of the Go vernment suggested this to you ?" Immediately . upon ,this question being put, the counsel' for the Crown jumped up, and, said, " Don't answer that question !" as--. much as to say, "Don't tell the Irish pe9- ple—don't tell the English people,. who it was that employed - you." Mr. Charles Ross had before stated that he had been sent over and employed by a person high in office. Now he (Mr. Duncombe) 'wanted to know, and he theught be had a rightto ask, who that high person was ?—(llear, hear.) Could not the Government' find other persons but those eni plored on newspapers —and employed by newspapers, too, not in the interest of the Government ? Could they not have found other persons than those for such a disreputable purpose as that for which Mr. Ross had been engaged ? Of course the Government knew per fectly well that a person going over under false colours —going as the reporter to the Morning Chronicle would thereby be enabled to obtain information with facility. This they considered was an advantage. He understood that at one meeting, that which took place at Mullaglnast, this individual, Mr. Ross, was known to be, acquainted and connected with the liberal press, and was treatedon that account with the greatest kind - ness by the •traversers_ themselves.—(Hear, hear.) In deed, so little did they think that this gentleman was a spy, that , 111 r. Steele, one of the traversers, took him in his own carriage,42 miles, to Dublin.—(Hear, hear.) By this means he got an insight into all their secrets.— (Hear, hear.). Now he (Mr. Duncombe) wanted to know who was the honourable and upright individual who employed that individual. He stated that he had re ceived 3501. fbr this and 501. for the Donnybrook meet ing. He then came back to England, and his connec tion with the'skorning-Chronieb having ceased at the termination of the session of Parliament, he went again . to Ireland for the .*cpdard new s paper, and then it was that he did this dirty work for theLeAippwoitt, i Those who einployed thiS man to do this dirty work ought to be known, not only to the Government, g 'but to the people. The people ought •to know who ordered the spending of their money for such purposes.—(Hear, hear.) He could not believe that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government would condescend to such meanness; nor could he think the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary, of State for the Home Department, had any hand in it-(Hear, hear)—because ' on a former. oc casion, the Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the Government had never employed spies among the po lice, and that if any of them had been employed in such a character, it must have been under the countenance of some local magistrates. Now he (Mr. I).) wanted to know if it was a Member of the other House of Parliament ; and this he would say, that, let it be whom it might, they had inflicted eternal disgrace upon themselves.—(Hear, hear.) So much for the Carlisle patriot, Mr. Ross. — (Laughter.) He was now an ornament to the Standard newspaper. He was now, he (Mr. buncombe) be lieved, a reporter on that paper--(Hear, bear)—and as an agent of the Government, he (Mr. Duncombe) should like to know what he had received as a remuneration for the services he had rendered. Before he went to the case of Mr. Jackson, he would read to the House what was the opinion of the Irish press upon these transactions. There was an account of Mr. Charles Ross in the Dub lin newspapers which he would read to the House. (The Hon: Gentleman then read a paragraph describing the manner in which Mr. C. Ross had acted in Ireland, from which it appeared that that person had represented him self in Dublin as the reporter, first of the Morning Chro nicle, and subsequently of the Standard, while in re ality, he attended the meetings in Ireland in the capacity of agent to the Government, for the purpose of obtaining inforMation to be afterwards rendered available for prosecuting individuals. The paragraph also stated that - Ross had 'acted a most trea-: cherous . part, and - one unworthy of a man having the least pretensions to the character of a gentleman—that he had deceived those with whom his professional duties brought him in contact, having represented himself as acting in the honourable capacity of a newspaper reporter, while he was in reality a reporter for the Government — that no sophistry could palliate such treacherous conduct, which was so different from the conduct of those reporters who, when called as witnesses on a former occasion of a similar kind, had refused to attend. The paragraph went on to state what was, in his (Mr. Duncombe's) opinion, the most correct, that if this principle of turn ing newspaper reporters into Crown witnesses were ge4. nerally adopted, the freedom of discussion would be at an end.)—(Hear, hear.) He came next to Mr. Jacksoni r of' the Morning Herald, who it appeared was not a re gular reporter, but a correspondent of the Morning Herald, and who used to write some very interesting and entertaining reports for that paper, and which he used to render, to use his own terms, " rather spicy" for those readers who indulged in the Morning Herakl.-1- (Laughter.) At the close of that person's examination he stated that the Morning Herald had then latel i changed hands, and that it was a short time previous t the change of proprietors that he had been directed to p t himself in communication with Mr. Kemmis, the Crown solicitor, and that he had heard Mr. O'Connell fre quently repudiate his being made responsible Or what appeared in the newspapers. The witneSs then said that he wished to say something, as comments might be made on his conduct. The Lord Chief Justice then asked him what he wished to say. Mr. Jackson then protested solemnly that those documents were given to the Crown solicitor, INfr. Kemrnis, by the proprietors of the Morning Herald without his knowledge—(Hear, hear)—and that he never knew they were in the hands of the Crown solicitor till they were handed to him (Mr. Jackson) by that gentle-. man.—(Heaf.) 'He said he thought it was due to his charieter to make this plain explanation of the truth. (Hear, hear.) No person, said the Hon. Member, could cast the least blame upon Mr. Jackson after this state ment.—(Cheers-.) It was evident that Mr. Jacksba was ashamed of the conduct of the Crown, and that he was very anxious to cast the odium [of the transaction from himself. Those doeu meats were handed over by the proprietors for reasons best known to themselves. Be knew it might be said that this took place before the transfer of the Morning Herald, which happened on the Ist of January ; but there were reasons for handing over these documents before the money was paid, and before the Gbvernment assisted in advancing the money.— (Cheers.) The Government, no doubt, had very equit able claims to the documents which they hound in the Morning Herald office before that establishment was transferred, and before it was incorporated with the Standard. But it was clear Mr. Jackson was ashamed of the transaction, though it appeared the Morning Herald was not ashamed of handing over the documents.—(Hear.) He said that the Government ought to be ashamed of their conduct in availing themselves of those documents. He would read some of the opinions of the press on this subject. The opinions were strong, but not stronger than the conduct of the parties would justify. (The r Hon. Gentleman then read a paragraph from one of the fi n e e w r a s papers, p i n e r, thisw hi transaction, st a ted that was t h u e n p c o a n r a d il u e c l t e o the df in-the pMorni ngpublic press. The charge against it was clear and unmistake able. The Herald received communications under the sealbf confidence, and had bartered them to the Govern ment, for the purposes - of carrying on a prosecution. Such conduct struck at the root of all confidence in the' public journals. It made those who attended public meetings for the purpose of reporting, spies and in formers. They could but express their abhorrence of the perfidious conduct pursued in this transaction which the Herald and Crown might divide between them.) — (Cheers' and laughter.) He (Mr. buncombe) concurred in that opinion, and he thought that even if the Herald was base enough to hand over the documents to the Crown, 'the Crown ought not to have availed itself of them in a trial of such importance. The trial became tainted by such conduct—(Hear, hear)—and they had better have left the prosecution alone, than have con ducted it by such means, which reflected so little credit on the Government.. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, informed the House the other night, with more candour than discretion, that the Right Hon. Gen tleman wrote a letter to the Attorney-General for Ire land,'Commending him for thejud; e ent, the firmness, and good temper with which he con. cted the prosecution. As they had thus passed a vote' of ,thanks to the At torney-General for Ireland, he hoped that others con nected with the trials would not be excluded. He hoped the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench would receive a vote of thanks for the charge he had delivered.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He hoped that Mr. Kemmis, too, the Crown Solicitor, would li4 ' thanked for his services in procuring the jury.—(Cheers.) No doubt the proprietors of the Morning Herald and Standard - found 'a sufficient recompense in their own consciences, and were above any idea of remuneration ; but he must ,say they would not do justice to the Chief Justice and to Mr. Kemmis, if they only thanked the Attorney-General for the judgment and temper with which he had con ducted the prosecution. Now, he wanted to know if a verdict so obtained would gain any moral in fluence whatever—he doubted it very much ; it certainly had not produced that effect in England. The impression, from one end of England to the other, was, that Mr. O'Connell had not had a fair trial. At the . close of last session, the Right Hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department told the House that, if it did not strengthen the hands of the Government, and maintain its authority in Ireland, England would present amelancholy spectacle to the eyes of surrounding nations. If there was then a shadow, of foun dation for the Right Honourable Gentleman's assertion, the Government must now be in that state of alarm. If they looked at what had occurred during these debates, and to the general opi nion of the conduct of the Government,' he must say he had never known a debate so damaging to a Government. —(Laughter, and Oh, oh I from the Ministerial benches.) They must be on the eve of the fulfilment of the predic tion of the Right Honourable Baronet, if there was the slightest - foundation for his assertion of last session. He (Mr. buncombe) had-no Apprehension of that prediction being fulfilled. The only apprehension he had of their becoming a melancholy spectacle in the eyes of other nations was a fear that Members of Parliament 'would not speak out on this .question, and would not do their duty ; but if Hon. Members on both sides of -the House would do their duty in this matter, there need be no alarm. He knew it was perfectly competent to her Majesty's. Ministers to refuse the returns he moved for, and that without adducing one Single argument in support of their conduct, just as they had refused•the other night the motion of his Honourable and Gallant Friend near him (Capt. Layard, we 'believe). On that occasion they relied not on argument, but on their numerical ma jority.—(Hear, hear.) They might do so on that occa sion, they might refuse the information he sought for, and which Ireland had a right to have; but if they did so, the country would not be satisfied, and every , impartial man would come to the conclusion, that these proceedings had been conducted, from first to last, in a way which reflected no honour on them, either as men, or as Ministers of the Crown.—(Cheers.) Mr. WALLACE was understood to second the motion. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, he should, indeed, en; tertain a melancholy opinion of the future prospects, not only of Ireland, but of the whole country, if the 'ma jority in that House sympathised with the sentiments of the Honourable Gentleman who brought forward this motion.-- - -(Loud cheers. 'from the Ministerial benches.) And he must add, that under ordinary circum stances, after the speech which had just been delivered, and especially after the invectives and accusations in which the Hon. Gentleman had indulged when speaking of the Government, he should have considered it his duty to oppose entirely . the returns asked for ; but, considering the whole . circumstances of the case—the particular time at which the motion was made, and that there must be a vote of public money during the present session, in connection with these prosecutions—he could not bring himself to give to the motion a positive and' absolute opposition. He would beg the House to re: member in what light the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. bun combe) presented himself to them that eyening. If h e (Sir J. Graham) mistook not, the Hon. Gentleman was last night attending a meeting of his constituents in Finsbury, where, after a strong and a warm discussion, a motion was carried instructing him to obstruct the progress of the supplies in that House. Mr. DUNCOMBEThere was no such motion made. Sir JAMES GRAHAM confessed he might be wrong„ for after the great variety of subjects there introduced, and the great variety of opinions expressed upon them, it was somewhat difficult to say with certainty what had really passed.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman a arned the Government that they were damaged by the late debate, that they were not so strong as they thought themselves to be, and that a change had recently taken* place on his ownside of the House. He wished him joy of it, and of the news compact alliance which they had formed But he would now proceed to touch upon some of thOse topics to which the Hon. Gentleman had adverted in his speech. ' He would riot then go into the discussion of the conduct of the trial in Ireland ; he would not then re-open all those questions which for nine nights' hiid i occupied the attention of thit Houses—Wear, lieaq LONDON, SA,TUR_DAY MORNI NG, MARCH 2, 1844, Ills T-Ti;n:"Frienci_thOleplber for Bridport - was about to humblest Officer, the constable as he did in the case of ask him that evening when it intention of her some friend of his who was now he. (Sir J. Giaham) be- Majesty's .Government to proCee d'with measures of great lieved- outlaw, He, again, attacked the conduct, of practical importance, on which tl le greatest ,anxiety in the the public prosecutor. At another time it was the wit public mind prevailed, and ,wl aclh he. adMitted it was nesses whom he - assailed. Upon the whole the Hon. necessary-to proceed with without delays,he alluded to Gentleman had a most morbid sensibility—an instinctive the Factories Bill and the 'Poor-law. Now' he begged to dread,. as it were, of political inquiries. —(Hear, and remind . the House that since the_protrasited debate on laughter from the Ministerial benches.) . And he seemed 'the affairs of Ireland, they had had two flays for supply, to be greatly alarmed that justice had at last overtaken . and.. on each of thoie occasions the lion s Member political offenders. He wi s h e d hi m j oy .—(H e a r, h ear, for Rochdale made a motion before going into and a laugh.) But with respect to his own (Sir J. Gra- Committee, for the avowed purpose of obstruct- ham's) conduct, he had the approval of the majority of ing the progress of the votes.H(lear, hear.) So, that House.—(Laughter from the Opposition benches.) , also, the Hon. Gentleman,.adopting the sane line, and He saw 'arranged opposite-to him, notwithstanding some pursuing the same course, not Content with one motion, ,preparation, a strong matter of parties opposed to the that evening made a second, re-opening nearly. all. the Government.. They (the Ministers) had made no such questions .with reference to the conduct of the trial, preparation, but still he felt confident that • .without, which had already undergone protracted discussion. having made; any such preparation s in appealing to the Under. these circumstances he must anticipate the sense, the feeling, and the judgment of that House, the question of the Honourable Member for Brid- -Hon. Gentleman would not succeed-in his motion. port, by stating that it - was impossible for her " Lord J. RUSSELL said that he certainly made no Majesty's Government - to fix .any precise time for pro- preparations—(Cluers_ and laughter)---for this debate, ceeding with the measures to which the question re- nor did he intend to take any other part in it than what ferred.,-(Hear, heals- from the Ministerial benches.) ho felt called upon to take in consequence of what fell Now with reference to the, as o ti on of -th e Hag. Gentle- from the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Right Honour man, he at once avowed that her Majesty's. Goverement able Gentleman said he believed it was the practice of observing in . the early part of last. year the language those who were concerned in the executive department which was used at large meetings assembled in Ireland in of the country—at least so far as the Home Department rapid succession, did think it their i;nperative duty was concerned—to send persons,' when the excited state to obtain clear, full, authentic, and satisfactory of-the country required it, to obtain reports of what took evidence as to the, language employed at these meetings. place at public meetings. ' He would say, at once, that if He said decidedly that he should have betrayed his duty he were in the Government, and if the excited state of to the public if.he had omitted every fair opportunity of the public mind, either in. England or Ireland, required obtaining authentic information. Now he saw Hon. Gen- it—if large.meetings were held, and if it appeared to tlemen on the other side opposed to him—he was afraid him, on reading the. reports of what passed at- those bitterly opposed to him—in party politics, but he would meetings, that anything of a seditious, or dangerous ask them whether, at alltimes, it had not been the practice tendency, had been said, he -would consider it it his duty of the executive Government, when popular excitement to obtain correct reports of the proceedings.—(Hear, was running high, and immense public meetings . were hear.) He did not know that he would have done any being assembled,. to obtain authentic information by thing but what the Right Hon. Gentleman had done— means of shorthand-Writers astothe language addressed namely, apply to Mr. Gurney for a short-hand writer, to meetings of this description?—(Hear, hear, from Lord in whom he could place confidence, and send him to take John Russell.) The simple question was whether the correct reports of what had taken place, more means employed for obtaining information were fair and especially it the language was of such a character legitimate. Now, the Hon. Gentleman had thought fit to as might render it -necessary to institute legal proceed use, he would not say. offensive, but certainly very strong ings. lie would say there would be no security for the language with reference to the course which had been country if reports of . meetings -were to appear in the pursued in the case -under consideration. He (Sir newspapers, and allowed to be circulated by th em , con - James Graham) did not shrink from avowing that all ta i n i ng ;perhaps language of a seditious and revolu the • means which had been adopted to obtain tionary kind, and if the Government of the country information in . this case had been adopted by alone were not .to have cognisance of what passed at him; and on his personal responsibility.—(Cheers - them. He was not now speaking of any particular from the Ministerial benches, and " Hear, hear," from meetings, but of possible meetings, at which language of both sides of the House.) He did • not wish to share such a character might have been used. He thought . this responsibility _ with any of his colleagues—(Hear, the country would be placed in great danger if the hear) , ---he was the person who was responsible, and ,Minister did not do his duty in such a case.—(Hear.) from that responsibility he would not shrink.—(Hear.) Taking the view which the Right Hon. Gentleman did The course he adopted with respect to Mr. Bond Hughes of those meetings. he thought he would not be doing his was, to apply. to Mr. Gurney, the gentleman at the head duty if he did not take steps to have correct reports of of the reporting establishment for the Government, and what had been done at those meetings.—(hear, hear.) ask him to get an intelligent person and a good short- He thought that a person . employed as a shorthand hand writer, and . direct him to procure this person's writer, and paid at' the rate at which those persons were services, at the usual rate of remuneration given to gen- usually paid, was a person very different from those tlemen so employed. Mr. Gurney, in accordance with who were .formerly employed by the Govern those. directions, procured Mr. Bond Hughes, and that, ment, and who were called spies.—(Cries of gentleman was sent _over to Ireland, to take short- f‘ Hear, hear.".) But if ..he was a. person employed se hand notes of the speeches made at those meetings. cretly, and went into the secret councils of persons He (Sir J. Graham) was perfectly willing to produce a -supposed tcs he - disaffected—if he watched their lan return of all the moneys expended under this head. He guage, and reported to his employers what passed at should most freely give returns of &lithe moneys ex- those secret meetings, such a person might go beyond pended under the item of Mr. Gurney's shorthand esta- w h a t was correc t, an d might excite and promote that blishment, and in those documents it would be found very disaffection and sedition, that very _treason, which that Mr. Bond Hughes did not receive any higher rem- he was employed to report, But a person who goes to neration for his services on those trials than any execute fairly and faithfully the commands .he has re other Government shorthand writer ; and he was ceived, to take a report of what passes at public meet= convinced that the Honourable Member for Finsbury ings, excites no one to - the commission of any crime would find. that this remuneration had not been extrava- --,he merely states what he sees, and takes down what gents The Hon. Member had referred to what had he hears. .Then, how could any person conceive—how occurred concerning the mistake about Mr. Barrett's could any person have a .right to complain of it as a name ; but with this exception, th ere was not grievance, when he -is simply sent among them to one portion of Mr. Hughes's evidence which had been take down , their words? The -Right Honourable shaken, even by the strictest cross-examin a ti on . H e G entleman then proceeded to the other part of his should. say, with respect to Mr. Charles Ross, conduct, upon which, certainly (continued his Lordship), that the first occasion upon which the Government I am not se willing, because I am no t so a bl e , t o thought fit to send a shorthand writer to Ire- give an opinion. The Right Hon. Gentleman re land was in the month of June, and he ferred to the corroboration which he required . of the avowed that he had known Mr. Ross for many Government .reports, from the reporters of the years, and felt confident that he was a most newspapers. If that .was - merely asking those accurate reporter and a trustworthy and honourable man. who took down reports of proceedings, to appear at the He (Sir J.. Graham) knowing him to be such, on his own trial and give evidence as 'to what they had so taken responsibility, sent for Mrs Ross, and told'him that the, down, in order to verify *hat had been taken by the Government wished a shorthand writer to proceed to Government reporters, I cannot see. what matter of Ireland for the purpose of attending a meeting that was blame there. could be in making that request..--(Hear, to be held at Donnybrook.. His dire c ti on t o Mr. Ross hear.) Whether it might not injure the credit of a was, " You will proceed there—you will take an accurate newspaper if it should be known that its reporters were note of what is said, and be prepared to verify upon oath in the habit of assisting the Government in its prosecu that which you. hear." The pecuniary arrangement tions—that was a matter for the proprietors of news was that Mr. Ross was to receive 501. for his travelling papers themselves to consider ; that was a matter of expenses. Mr. Voss did proceed to Ireland—he attended newspaper policy and newspaper morality, with which the meeting at Donnybrook, and he took a verbatim the Government has no concern.. But I must say that report of it. Subsequently at the end of the session of' the validity 'of the Right Hon. Gentleman's defence, Parliament, 'before Mr. Bond Hughes was sent over, with regard to Mr; Charles Ross, depends entirely on another.. arrangement was made with Mr. R os s, which the accuracy with which that individual observed his in was that he should again proceed to Ireland, and remain structions. If he openly made his report to the Govern there during the recess—the whole of the recess fromthe ment department in-Ireland or England, and did not Ist or 2d of A u gust, until the first week in February, conceal his character, then the instructions given him for the sum of 350/. It would appear, when Mr. Our- were proper, and were properly observed ; but if, on the ney's account was presented to the House, that the rate contrary, Mr. C. Ross concealed his character in any of payment to Mr. Ross was.considerably less than the degree, or wormed himself . into the councils and rate of payment to Mr. Bond Hughes, and the persons projects of those engaged in the repeal agitation, then I employed in Mr. Gurneys establishment. Now the ac- cannot doubt what the. Right Hon. Baronet says about the cusation was, that Mr. Ross was sent over by him instructions he gave him, but I must say, - some injury (Sir James Graham) as a spy. He most solemnly and has been done by those instructions not being duly car positively denied that accusation. His directions ried out. I rose for the purpose of stating what I con to Mr. Ross were, to go to Ireland and avow himself as sider my duty would have been had I been in the Ser the reporter for the. Government. He (Sir J. Graham) vice of the Crown; but the Right Hon. Gentleman has knew that at that time •Mr. Ross was connected as a re-• spoken of some • compact and alliance between myself porter with one of the morning papers—he believed the and Mr. O'Connell. lam perfectly well aware of the Morning Chronicle. He was also aware that at the , end effect which, during the existene_e* the late Govern of the session of Parliament Mr. Ross went to Ireland men t, th e cons t a nt r eite ra ti on of thW charge—(Hear)— for the Standard. But his directions to that gentles of the assertion that the patronage of the Government man were, " You will. proceed to Ireland as the was placed at the disposal of Mr. O'Connell, produced reporter for the Government." He did not sanction any to the injury of the Government, though the charge was concealment whatever. He did not sanction it either di- entirely unfounded. Although the statement that there rectly or indirectly. But the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. exists some compact between Mr. O'Connell, and myself Duncombe) said that after all it was well-known that has no foundation, yet I will never shrink if I see Mr. Mr. Ross was employed by the Government. (Mr. O'Connell, or any one else—any other person of less - Duncombe made some observation across the table which talent, or moving in a humbler sphere of life—whatever Gentleman to say that M r . R oss h a d .conce aled the fact qu ence of that :declaration —I will never shrink, when I we did not hear.) 'He cer t a i n l y un d ers tood the lion. ma y be the obloquy to which I may be exposed in conse. Of his being the Government reporter, and that he had see a person treated in the manner in which Mx. O'Con travelled with Mr. Steele forty-two miles while he was nell has been treated, from declaring in this House, that Governmentreporter. Now this he (Sir J. Graham) ab- that person has not had a fair trial.—(Loud cheers.) solutely and positively denied. No obloquy that the Right Hon. Gentleman can cast - Mr..T.'DUNCOMBE—I t 'was his own evidence. upon me—no obloquy that the party to which the Right Sir J. GRAHAM had not the least objection, under Hon. Gentleman belongs can cast upon me, for. acting these circumstances, to produce the account of all in this ,manner, shall deter me from doing what I con monies paid to Mr. Ross, and of all moneys paid sider my duty to the Constitution.---(Loud cheers.) The to Mr. Bond Hughes, and of the instruc- Right Hon: Gentleman prides himself upon the results tions given to them. Those instructions were of this trial; but since he •so prides himself, I will state certainly verbal, for which he (Sir J. Graham) was re- my belief, that if the: same offence had been committed sponsible. Now, with regard to the case of Mr. Jackson. in this country, 'supposing the Attorney-General for That was the third case mentioned by the lion. Gentle- England had pursued a somewhat similar course, we ma n. With Mr. Ja c k son he (Sir J. Graham) had had should h ave h a d a diff erent charge from the judge—' no communication. Mr. Jackson was a reporter con- (Loud cheers)—and a,different verdict from the j ur y._ nected with the Morning Herald, and was resident (Continued Rheering.) • That is my opinion, and be the in Dublin. The Crown solicitor was bound to obtain- persons Who they may, I never will cease from endea evidence to corroborate the testimony of Mr. Bond vouring to obtain for the people of Ireland the full en- Hughes and Mr. Ross, and ho ascertained that Mr. joyment of all those rights and privileges, of the posses- Jackson had taken notes of some of the meetings. He sion of which the people of England are so Justly therefore communicated with Mr. Jackson , - and pr ou d.—(l mmense cheering.) iwnithw.htohsee service euctors Mr. of jactkhseon was employed. he h a d b een.: accused of charging the Government with e xpenses incur- empl o yi ng spies, Morning Herald, Mr. DUNCOMBE rose to rep l y. I n t h e fi rst p l ace A return should be mad e o f a ll t h e l a w and calling those persons spies who red in the late prosecutions, in which would appear the were fair and honeurable agents. He had done no such amount of all the moneys that had been paid to Mr. thing. When a reporter at public meetings, acting for Jackson. He must again declare that no communication the Government, confessed himself as the agent for the Whatever had taken Place between the Government and Government, there was certainly nothing to justify the Mr.- Jackson further than he had stated. - application of the word -spy to him.—(Hear, hear.) He Mr. DUNCOMBE----Or the Morning Herald. did not all that man a spy—far from it. Mr. Bond - Sir JAMES GRAHAM observed that the House Hughes vvas- rye spy.—(Cheers from both -sides.) He must determine whether, in. a case of this descrip- went to these meetings, and openly acknowledged him tion,4 it- was not the bounden duty of the Government self at every one of them as an agent from the Govern to bring as much corroborative evidence as possible Of ment, and he had himself manfully avowed that, on all oceasions,. he was . reeeived with that courtesy and respect to which every gentleman so employed, and. so avowing o r s n e y n s I%emaap obtainedky e by the openly Government, anand honourably. provided t_h E a e t had no hesitation in avowi that a. communication had .his employment, - was entitled.--(Hear, hear.) In his -been made by the Government to the Morning Herald (Mr. Duncombe's) opinion, such courtesy would be ex stthesetipme and Standard newspapers, requesting the proprietors of tended, throughout England, as wellats Ireland, to gen those papers to allow their reporters to corroborate the tlemen, engaged in those arduous duties, and it was testimony of the persons employed by the G o vernment. desirable it should be so, for only through the He (Sir J. Graham) had told the House the returns medium o f r e p or t s cou ld t h ere b e • any c h ance which, on the part' of the Government, he was willing.too of a. red ress Of gr i evances. — (Hear, hear.) 'But he assent to the production of. He was willing begged to say that the position of Mr. Charles Ross was produce a return of all mone y s pa id, an d a ll instructions very different to that of Mr. Bond Hughes.—(Hear.) given on the part of the Government, with respect to His conduct had been very different.—(Hear, hear.) the late .prosecutions'; and he would add, that either The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) said he em now, or-on! some future occasion, he would lay on' the ploYed Mr. Charles Ross, knowing .at the time that he table a return of the rate of -pay to the reporters em- was a servant to the Morning Chronicle. He left it to ployed on Mr. Gurney's establishment, both in Ireland the Right Hon. Baronet to reconcile it with his own con and Wales, on similar occasions , from which it would science, to be thus employing a man whose services be be seen that the payments that had been made on the longed to others, and those others differing so widely late - occasion were not greater in proportion than on from him in politics.—(Cheers.) Of course with that previous ones.—(Hear, hear.) He now came to that high sense of honour, and that regard for morality which portion of the Hon. Gentleman's motion to which he had ever distinguished the public conduct of the Right must decidedly object. He objected to the last return„ Hon-Baronet, before employing Mr. Charles Ross, he of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, because it contained" - had doubtless written to the proprietors of the Morning insinuations that could not be misunderstood. It con- Chronicle to advise them of his intention so to do.— tained insinuations that to the Morning Herald and the' —(Cheers, and loud' laughter.) But what was the con -Standard newspapers sums of money had been duct of Mr. Ross , Dnl he obey the instructions paid, and that some -corrupt practices had takes _which, seeing that the Right Hen. Baronet (Sir James place.=---(Hear.) He (Sir J. Graham, in the most solemn Graham) asserted that evening he had given to him, no manner as a gentleman denied the truth of such asser- d6ubt he had done so—did Mr. Charles Ross, he asked, tions, and he contended that the Hon. Gentleman had no obey those instructions ?—(Hear, hear.) No he did not. right in the shape of a return to make such insinuations —(Cheers.) Mr. Ross, in his examination at the trial, .—insinuations that conveyed an indelible stain.—(Hear, was asked—" Did 'you at the meetings you' attended hear.) - The gentleman connected with the public press state yourself to be an accredited agent and re possessed fine and honourable feelings—(Hear,thear)= 'porter of the Government ?" His words, in an and more incapable of doing that dirty work to which swer, are s certainly not."— (Hear, hear, hear.) the Hon. Gentleman had adverted. , He-was quite. re- He was asked, with referenee to another occasion, whe solved, therefore, to resist . the 'production of the last ther he got a good place on the platform. His answer return—he was aware that in 'doing so he was giving to was, " Yes, I got a very good place on the scaffold, the Han: Gentleman an advantage which he would not which I obtained through the. proprietor.of the Dublin be slow to avail himself of, viz., the repeating of the in- Evening Mail." Why was this place given to him ? ' sinuation with doubleeffect that there was something con- Because' the proprietor of that paper thought he was in coiled. But he againrepeated,in themo s t so l emn manner, the' aame interest as himself. When he went out a se that for that 'insinuation, there was not the least ground. cond time as Government reporter, he was employed in With respeCt to the last return which the Hon. Gentle- the service of the Standard. He was asked whether he man had - moved for —namely, a return of the names of apprised - the Standard that he was employed by the the persons now employed by Mr. Gurney to. report the Government? His reply was, " Certainly nOt." The fact , proceedings in the Corn Exchange, after th e ex p er i ence was t h e on ly persons in the secret were the Attorney which they had had of the posting of Mr. Bond Hughes General and the Right Hon. Baronet. Now he con in the streets of Dublin as a spy and informer, he (Sir tended that, according to the definition laid down by the J. Graham) was not prepared to hold up those persons Noble LOrd the Member for the -City of London, and to public execration, as he would do, by consenting to agreed to by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, M r .. R oss came give that return.—(Hear, hear.) , Before h e sa t d ow n; un d er the' description of a spy.—(No, no, from the he would just observe, that in those times, it was no Ministerial benches.) The Right Hon. Baronet had easy task to insure the administration of public justice called him a trustworthy and honourable man. He against great offenders, without incurring some portion (Mr. T.Duncombe)left it to the people and to the country of public obloquy. It was his painful -duty to risk.. in- .to decide whether it was honourable on the part of Mr. Ross cursing that obloquy. But it was a proud satisfaction, to go to these meetings as a Government agent, without that upon the whole he had succeeded—administerixig avowing" the facts'. With regard to the Morning Herald, Only the law, and asking for no extraordinary powers— he had never said a, .word against Mr. Jackson, any in-putting d own a d a ngerous conspiracy (as we under- more than he .had impugned the. conduct alai-. Bond stood the Right Hon. Gentleman),' and bringing to jus- Hughes. "Mr. Jackson's conduct reflected credit upon `'tice 'great public offenders. In doing so, he had lim's At the termination of his examination, lie was so acted consc ientiously, faithfully, and honourably ; ashamed of his employers, that he exclaimed, "So help and he was not • going to be deterred from me Goat till the *solicitor for the Crown sent for me, I 'continuing in that course. He would r em i n d the House was not aware that the'notes which ` I bad made were to of the account the lion. Gentleman had given of his,own be used for the prosecution."—(Hear, hear:). Now it ebnduct to-night. One time he attacked the judgeengaged appeared that the Right Hon. Baronet did apply to the -In political trials—anothet - time he attacked even the .‘ Morning Herald and the s44ndar4 for fan! osl4 1 „ 1 f 'what he (yr. T. Duncombe) want e d was , an account o f the sums paid To 7 - fitro - tis — erziployed - by the Morning - Herald and the Standard newspapers. Mr. Ross stated, in his examination, that he would not have it known for 50,0001. that he went to Ireland as a Government agent; he said he would only have gone as - a newspaper reporter. On being asked if he would have gone for 75,000 L, he said, " Well, I think I would;" but he wpuld not under 75,0001. have acknow ledged to the Irish people that he was the agent of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Laughter.) Did the Right Hon. Baronet allude to the meeting of his (Mr: Dun combe's) constituents which he attended last night ? It was possible that there might have been a Government reporter there—(Laughter)---but, at •all events, whoever gave the Right Hon. Baronet his information of what passed there, it was very bad. That meeting was called to take into consideration the best measures for expres sing their opinions in favour of the motion which his Hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale was about to bring before the House. It was true also that the meet ing had 'expressed in strong terms their unabated confidence in the humble individual who was then ad dressing them.--(Laughter.) The meeting last. night had not the slightest reference to any other objects con templated in his motion, and he thought that such an insinuation was most uncandid. The Right Hon. Baronet had accused him (Mr. Duncombe) of acting as a public prosecutor. He should pursue the same course which he always had done, and whether it were a judge, a jury, or even the Right Hon. Baronet himself, he should consider it his duty to bring any op pression they might commit before the House so long as he held a seat in it. Mr. BELLEW would say a few words with respect to the defence of the Attorney-General for Ireland, that their reason for refusing to give the names of the witnesses was, that cards had been handed about Dublin denouncing Mr. Hughes as a spy and an informer; but the House should recollect that this had not bedone until Mr. Hughes had been accused of having committed perjury—most unknowingly he (Mr. Bellew) would say, because all that occurred with respect to Mr. Hughes was solely owing to the Crown Solicitor's conduct. He would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Attorney- General for Ireland, if he had received any explana tion :upon this subject, as a sufficient time had now elapsed since the conclusion of the debate. He could only say that this was one of the many pro ceedings during the trial which had created an impres sion on the minds of the people of Ireland, that from be ginning to end there had not been fair play in the late nacwithstanding the opinions expressed on the otlfertifinif the HOuse, that impression would con tinue. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and th 6 House divided— For the motion . Against it 73 144 Majority against the motion —7l LOCAL POOR-LAW ACTS. Mr. D. M'LEAN wished to know whether the Right llon. Baronet the Home Secretary intended to refer local Poor-law Acts to a Select Committee ? Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that such was not his ntention. PETITIONS. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose to move an amendment on the subject of the petitions presented to that House, complaining that the House of Commons did not repre sent the people. The substance of those petitions was contained in a petition which was presented, a short time ago, from the town of Birmingham. The allega tions in that petition were—firstly, that that House did not represent the people ; secondly, that it did not possess the' confidence of the people ; thirdly, that a large number of Mem bers had 'notoriously obtained their seats by the most profligate bribery and corruption ; fourthly, that the proceedings of that House were obviously influenced by selfish, personal, and party motions, rather than by the interests of the people. These were the allegations contained in that petition which had been laid on the table of the House. He was much surprised, in refer ring to the Journals, to find that this important docu ment had not been published by the Committee on Peti tions. There had been 31 petitions presented during the present session, all complaining of grievances, and he had only found that one of those petitions had been pub lished. His proposition was for a Select Committee to inquire into the subject of those petitions, and to make a report thereon. If that House did represent the people, why did they not boldly and at once declare that the allegations contained in those petitions were unfounded? He was not now going to advocate the extension of the franchise, although he thought the franchise ought to be extended. He should merely confine himself on the present occasion to the subject of the petition to which he had adverted. So long as the impression ex isted in the minds of the people that they were not re presented in that House, so long would there be resist ance to the law ; and, under such circumstances, the only means by which the Government in this country could be carried on would be that of an extensive military force.—(Hear.) He was surprised to hear the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncombe) express his objection to this motion, be cause he himself had taken a precisely similar course. He (Mr. S. Crawford) could assure the House that it was not his intention to adopt any factious proceeding, nor should he pursue any course which he thought;not ' calculated to be attended with success. He shobld, however, on all occasimig-when the army estimates were/ proposed, move that the military force of this country-) be reduced, and he should persist in such motions until the grievances of the people were redressed. The lon. Member concluded by moving—" That the several peti tions which have been received and laid on the table of this House since the - commencement of the session, com plaining that this House is not a true representatio# of the people, be referred to a Select Committee to ingitire into the said allegation ; and that the further considera tion of the Estimates be postponed till such Committee shall report thereon."' Mr. BLEWITT seconded the motion. Every day's experience convinced him that that House merely legis lated for themselves, and this was more particularly shown in the late discussions on the Horse Raking Penalties Bilkwhich had been introduced for the pur pose of screening, on the plea of ignorance of the pia', certain high personages who had violated the law. I He would like to know how a plea of ignorance of the law would avail a poor wretch on his trial in a criminal court. Would that plea relieve him fro m th e verdict of the jury or diminish his punishment? The c orn -laws, too, were imposed merely to . put •money in the pockets of the landlords by depriving the poor of biead. The House then divided, when there appeared For the motion l5 Against it 9l Majority . —76 SUPPLY. The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. On the vote that 594,3701. be granted for the vic tualling of seamen and the marine forces. Dr.BOWRING thought,that when the House was called upon to vote away more than half a million of money, they should have some information in detail to justify them in giving their,assent to it. The House ought to know how so large a sum was applied. Captain. PECHELL opposed the employment of the naval force in the collection of poor-rates. Several ships of war had been employed at Castlebar, on the coast of Galway, in conveying land-lubbers of police, from place to place. The marine force had likewise been employed 'in the same disgraceful manner. Lord Lucan declared, that he would encourage opposition to the collection of a new poor-rate, whilst the old one re mained unpaid, and in this most unpopular and despotic service were her Majesty's ships of war engaged. The Hon. and Gallant Member proceeded to censure the Admiralty for not bringing the principle of the Arcliime dian screw into more general operation. The Rattler, which was announced by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, to have been ready along time ago was not yet completed, but was employed in running up and down the river, testing the efficacy of Mr. Brunei's experi ments. The Archimedian screw had been employed in the United States with great success, and one of the vessels which accompanied the Royal Yacht from Treport, was found to be only surpassed by her - Majesty's own vessel. He congratulated the Board of Ad miralty on the appointment of Mr. Hall, a most deserving officer, to the post of Commander in the navy, and to a situation in her Majesty's yacht. They were now going to raise 2,000 boys for the navy, but, after three years, their term ceased, and he was glad to see that many of them and their friends were most anxious that they should be re-entered. Each boy that was taken was obliged to be 981bs. in weight, and most of those who were reared in the Gilbert unions were found to be qualified in that way ; but, unfortunately, the great part of those from the other poor-law unions, were found beneath that weight. What he was most anxious for was that those young men, after their term of service had expired, should not he thrown upon the streets without the slightest resource, and be conse quently compelled, in the greater number of cases, to adopt a course of dishonesty and crime. He did, hope that the Admiralty would look closely to the 10-gun brigs, for he considered them to be perfectly valueless. It was true the Admiralty, in disposing of them, endea voured to make the most of them—(A laugh)—for, although they demanded 1000/. for each, they could not get more than 5001. for'any one of them. • Sir JAMES COCKBURN, in reply to the question which had been put to him respecting the employment of the officers of her Majesty's navy in collecting the poor-rates, said that if any officer went ,to collect them he certainly misunderstood his instructions. The only object was that wherever along the coast disturb ance or excitement prevailed the fleet was stationed, and its presence in the neighbourhood where those rates were being collected might have led to the surmise. However, if he could find out an officer who did so, an investigation would at once be entered into upon the subject. With regard to steam-boats generally, the present administration of the Admiralty were doing all they could to improve them, and they were endeavour ing to find out what construction might prove to be the best.' He believed that after all that had been said they could turn out a better set of steam-boats than could be turned out on the other side. With respect to the dis • charging of boys when the ships were paid off, he could only say, that the service required that a certain amount of men must be kept up. But he would be very glad to retain the boys, if his Right Hon. Friend the Chan cellor of the Exchequer would allow it.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He thought that it was very useful that men who had entered into her Majesty's service for a certain term should go round to the merchant service, and come back again when wanted into the navy. That course of circulation provided the merchant service with good men, whom the Government would have back again whenever - they were wanted. However, tied as the Admiralty was, it• could not do ,otherWisein respect to the "boys. As to the captains' clerks, he hail never heard any complaints from them, and he was sure that if there were any grounds of coca plaii4 they wouli have been,preferred before the Cora:. •, Asibrio.l4 mission,-._ As.t.o.the_ten-gun brigs, he must Say that he thought they were a cuss Very-much He had had several under' his command, and he had found them very useful. He did not deny that many_ ten-gun brigs had been lost; but he was convinced that their loss was attributable to the deficiency of crews and the want of men to attend to their sails Palthough there were oases in which the loss was clearly Ao be ascribed,- to their being st ruc k b y l i ghtning. There. was ir-gr--411,. deal more said than there ought to be in Order td : ltitabli . a row about these vessels. Certainly they were not ves— sels that he (Sir George Cockburn) admired—they wore not good sailers. However ; they 'were getting rid of them, and adding a class of others to the navy which he hoped would be faster, though he was pretty sure they would not prove safer vessels.—(Hear, hear.) Capt. PECHELL explained. Sir CHARLES NAPIER said he thought it was a matter of great regret that when millions were being voted away in that House there was always such a thin attendance—there being sometimes not more than forty Members present. He considered this circumstance a serious reflection upon the character of that House.— (Laughter.) He further thought it extremely odd that the reporters, when these millions were being voted, also declined attendance, or, what was pretty nearly the same thing, they shut their books up immediately.— (Loud laughter.) However, he should do his dety and leave the responsibility of this absence from the douse to the Members guilty of it: He wished on the present occasion to say a few words on the subject of the vic tualling and the paying of the Navy. First, to the pay ing.fl hey paid a seamen for what was called the thir teen months in the year. Now, in his opinion, this was a great absurdity, and the practice should, at once be abolished. A sailor did not understand thirteen months in the year, and he would be much more satisfied if the Admiralty would change the system, still giving to ,him of course the two pounds, for that amount to him was a very great thing indeed. He would next go to the petty officers—a class of men most necessary to keep up the comfort, happiness, and discipline of a ship, and there fore highly to be prized by any Government. If the petty officers had been properly treated in earlier years —if they had been better paid and more respected, the country would never have heard of the mutiny of 1798. In the present day there was a gopd deal that - might be done for this most useful class of men, and he was satisfied that even on the ground of economy the Government would lose nothing if they gave the second-class petty officers one-half more than the seamen, and the first-class petty officers double what the seamen received, He should mention that the seamen themselves could-be made much more satisfied if so much were not drawn from them on the voyage for slops, in order that, when they arrived at home, they might have more to draw. A remedy should be applied here. He came next to the subject of boys ; and he must say he could not agree in what had fallen from the Gallant Admiral opposite (Sir George Cock burn.) Boys were fit for sea when 98 pounds weight. —(Laughter.) If they got into a good ship, with an active and conscientious officer, their manners, morals, and education, were alike excellently attended to. At the proper time they were taught to reef and steer, and to take their part capitally in the whole work of the ship. They were made first-class boys at 17, or what was gene rally termed " hobble-de-hoys," and then they came homeward: When they got ashore, the crimps pounced upon them, got them to bad houses, taught them to chew tobacco, to smoke, to drink, to do everything, in short, that was nasty and bad. This was the way to ruin the poor lads, and just after such pains and care had been bestowed on them. They were not- old enough for the merchant service, and ao they were left to ramble about drenched with every vice that could degrade them. - In his opinion Government ought to take them on board the flag-ships, in preference to taking new hands. In this neglect of the boys he found one of the, main causes which made sailors so careless in their after lives. Next, he should allude to the pensioned seamen. Four teen years used to be the term in which a sailor was entitled to a. pension—now it was twenty-one. The fourteen years ought, in his opinion, to have been kept to, for twenty-one years was too long for a seaman to look forward to. Under present circumstances he would not give both pension and pay; but the pay increased by pension, which, from time to time, might be increased also. For instance, the pay of a sailor was 181.; but that after 14 years he increased by pension to 251. or Boa In a little while, he would increase this sum, and keep mo derately increasing it, thus not only securing present good conduct, but inducing good men to remain in the service. Next he should refer to the masters. Upon this subject also he did not agree with the Gallant Ad miral. opposite (Sir G. Cockburn). Masters were not brought up now in the merchant service, but in our own. He thought they ought to hold out an encouragement to their Lieutenants in the navy to qualify for masters, and that might be done by giving them better pay. Mr. WILLIAMS complained that the items f or which this large sum was to be expended were not placed clearly before the House. In the army esti mates all was clear and intelligible, but such was not 'the case in the navy, After some few observations from Mr, Tuffnell, Mr. S. Herbert,. Captain Dundas,. and Captain Plumridge, the vote was agreed to. The next vote was 126,826/. to defray. the salaries of the officers connected with the Admiralty, and the ex pense of the Admiralty office. . Mr. WILLIAMS suggested thatOt-would be a great :improvement if the clerks in these'.departments were required to work more hours a-day, and were Abetter paid. It would' be more satisfactory to the 'persons employed, and the public service would be better performed. Captain IIOUS said that on a former evening it was stated that the Government could on an emergency have 200 merchant steamers, and thus have the entire com mand of the narrow seas. But he would ask whether the Admiralty could procure 200 naval officers, who knew anything of steam-vessels, to command them 1' He believed that at this moment one half of her Majesty's steamers were commanded .by officers who knew nothing whatever about steam-vessels or their machinery, and Were so completely dependent on the engineers, that .they could not make any evolution - without first consulting him, so that they were the servants of the vessels,. rather than the commanders. The navy generally 'was not in the state it ought to be. The French squadron on the coast of Syria went through evolutions that could not be executed by our fleet. But, if the Admiralty would persist in employing old officers, who had been a quarter of a century on the shelf, instead of active young officers, it was imposssible that their ships could be well commanded. It was owing to the great care the French Government took to have young and. active officers that their ships were so well managed. But here, so great was the preference given to old officers, that a young one was scarcely allowed to have anyopinion-at fill. In other situations a man was allowed to arrive, at some time or other, at years of discretion—(Laughter)—but, in the navy, lie was not considered worth anything till he could neitherhear, see, nor chew her Majesty's biscuit. —(Great laughter.) He condemned the , manner in which a preference was given at the Admiralty to ships of certain construction ; he once commanded a 28-gun frigate for four years, and, when he reported to the Admiralty that she would make a very good merchant ship, but was a disgrace to a civilised nation, as a ship of w'r, he was told that all the previous reports from captains of this class of vessels had been highly favourable; it was well known, in the service that if a captain did not report well of a ship belonging to a class in which the Admiralty took an interest, there was an end of his prospects of future employments—(Hear, hear from Sir C. Napier.) The same' ships were re ported against by one other officer—Captain Dundas, the son of the First Lord of the Admiralty at the time— and he was written to by Mr. Croker, both publicly and privately, deprecating the .course he had taken. But, some time afterwards, when it was found that the Ad miralty had no longer any interest in these vessels, there was not a dissentient voice in the profession respecting the bad qualities of these vessels. In the same manner they must be cautious how they received all these re ports about the merits of the. Penelope, and other, steamers, and of the vessels of Captain Symonds. They might believe as much of them as they liked ; and the less they believed of them the better.—(Hear, hear.) Every report from the Dockyards on vessels not built by themselves was not 'to be depended on ; the build of ships in the private yards was much superior to that of the naval yards. But though the navy surveyor and navy builders hated each other like poison —(Laughter) —yet they all combined in condemning any vessel built in the yards of London, Liverpool, and Isle of Wight, though they were as superior to the ships in her Majesty's service, as Sir W. Symonds was to a working shipwright. He contended that year after year the Board of Admi ralty was in the habit of humbugging the House of Commons.—(Great laughter.) And the greatest use he could be in the House was, when he saw one of these sneaking jobs attempted, to lay it bare to them. He repeated his condemnation of the continual preference of old officers to young ones, and concluded by stating, that when one of these valuable old officers was sent to sea, after being 25 years on shore, the only hope was that he would get a good young commander or first lieutenant to take care of him, that he would hold his tongue on all occasions, and give good dinnwrs to his lieutenants and midshipmen, whenever he invited them to his table.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Sir GEORGE COCKBURN hoped that when the Hon. and Gallant Member quoted anything he had said that he would quote him correctly. He had never stated that a young officer waS d not to have an opinion. What he did say in the debate the Hon. and Gallant Member had alluded to was this, that having heard a certain opinion expressed by a young officer he hoped the House would not refuse to listen to an old one. With regard to the charges made by the Gallant Member he denied that they appli e d t o .the present Board of Ad miralty. He would defy anitßoard to take more pains than it had done to improve:The-state of the navy. He defended the surveyor of the ^navy (Captain- Symonds), stating his conviction that the service was much indebted to him.--(Hear, hear.) At the same time he did not think his ships were perfect, and the Ad miralty were making every exertion to procure improve ments on them. They had selected the . three most ta lented naval architects from the different yards, and sent them to Chatham to make a scientific report on the defects supposed to exist in these vessels. An elaborate Report had been presented to the Admiralty, pointing r out the defects, and stating the scientific reasons f them. These three naval architects were now n employed ain in constructing vessels according to their (: . )w. if ossibie, p to try if order to remedy these defects, and , stncto r! . d If the Admi ralty perfect ship could not h be in eon the short time it had been ralty . had done so mu b c Improvements were constantly vy e . pento the charge of neglect ingaptihnet stateappointed, t c o o f u t l h d e n n o a t going on, and fifty years hence their ships might per great deal better than they were at present. the Preach squadron getting under weigh in such Anasto Ps b superiore a style on the coast of Syria, he had been assured by the captain of the Asia that when in port with three or four of theso same French ships, they being all bound ) 4141iil 1.4 55 9101M111110'..) arls i sell