The Sun. — London, England, 1844-07-23 00:00:00

.r! ord d er' e, in er e q!ciasnoga abro ° is Anioncite r e d nd was or-e :cowl time. S BIU rea ding f the 0 much o °f r t O 3 bieb p reve lumber de vas t o preflol 40 exceeding he law s ll°/ced .r • wt.,. v ls i tors t he wily, uP t ; o bli The r• how nd uld s h() i li g )n for alter Posen bree that, clitY t egatived from t._ &b he t e orations : P'l or, o f the ro prove their. /~ `l~ ~~ ~,TIIE SU IN, I, 0 Algiers girl the French Coceul was of a trifling nature What was the origin'of that between - Franca and Morocco ? That Alel-el-Kader, the hero of the desert, had iought tefege in the entintey oF the Emperor; having been driven from his own deminiens ; the Arabs of that nation, feeling . Viecombinedinfluence of nationality and religien, cherished him, and this was the casks belle. But had they not reason to 10. k a WI caution on the slia.loes which events were casting before them, and by which the Mediterranean was now darkened ? It was manifest that . the same course would be pursued ia Morocco regarding Our commerce as was is - nestle in:Algiers, if the 'FrenSh gained posse :siert over it.—(Hsar, hear:) 'Mr. MnSregor, in the second volume of his statistics, gave the strength and power of Morocco, and the commerce of this country with it. England, in 1839, exeorted. to MO.; Cocci 299,0001. 163 English vessels were, in that year, employed in the exportation to Morocco ; whilst in that same year, only 12 of their vessels were engaged in the same trade. He did net ask the English tinvernmerit to question the policy of. the French ; but he wished to understand what precautions or stern the British Go vernment had - taken, end whether our farce in the Mediterran, an was equal to what it was on former occa sions, when it weakness was made the abject of cee nue. In 1838, the Dube of .Wellington, whose author cityNa; great on naval as well as ,on military questions, pee more nut terra, being in opposition, said the fleet was net suilicient. He (Mr. Shed) naturally looked to what the state of the British fleet in 1838 was in the Mediterranean :—ships of the line 18, frigates 29, sloopi 39, brigs 29, wan steamers 22. The Duke added that there should be a t quadron ready for any emergency ; and the present Prime Minister of England expressed himself in a similar efl'ict. What 'was the state of the British navy, in 1841, when the Whigs left office ? It was as follows :—Ships of the line, 26 ; frigates, 36 ; sloops, 40 ; brigs, 37 ; armed steamers, 22 ; other war vessels, 36. Now let them compare the state of the navy in 3841, When the Whigs left office, with what it is in 1841, when the Tories are in :—Ships of the line, 9 ; frigates, 32 ; sloops, tale brigs, 31 ; armed steamers, 32 ; other vessels, 10. What was the answer the Go vernment returned in the other House of Parliament when asked why there was act a greater naval force in the Mediterrenean, there being !'eur French ships of the line and frigates capable of containing 12,000 men there ? The Earl of Haeulington replied that unfor tntattely a coneentration of navel force was required on the coast of Ireland, 'He did not contend with the Earl of Haddington who had beets transferred from the care .of the Orange flag to that of the Union-Jack. He did net complain of Lord Haddingtee's desire to keep a strong force in Ireland ; but he. exclaimed against the policy which perverted the affections of a people-who, under different treatment; would be a bulwark of strength instead of a source of weakness.--(Hear.) He would say nothing against the French, who ware a noble, high minded people ; nor against that Minister of. France, who was even pre-eminent .ftmong those gifted men by whom he was surrounded, not only for his great genius, intelligence, thought, and writings, but for honour and 'honesty.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman then vindicated the conduct of Lord Palmerston. who, it was said, had compromised the ..interests of England. lie was happy to witness so much profession of diplomatic •eittlearment, but he could not discover that anythine material had been gained. On the contrary, it would appear that the right of search, which had been once conceded by M. Gnizot to this-country, had been recently withheld ; for had not British I.OWe-flee been lot in Spain ?—had the Escurial become an appurtenance of the .. Tuileries ?—(Hear, hear)—and in barbarious ',Stites. had not the power of. England been reduced to the " vartisliing point ?"—(Hear, bear.) He had done. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by. moving for a return, show; %t: the amount, of British ships in the Me diterranean in July, 1844, and also that the new scale of duties imposed on English shipping and English manu facture s in Algiers be laid on the table of the House. Sir C. NAPIER' seconded the motion. Sir R. PEEL commenced by saying that he would not observe upon the expressions of regret of the Right nom Gentleman, who taid he felt himself compelled by a sense of duty to brie; forward the present motion. He did not think it Was at all prudent in the Right Hon. Gentleman to bring forward the motion at a time when they were doing 'all they could to prevent any hostile collision between France and Morocco--anything which might be injurious to the integrity of MoroccO, or com promise the political or commercial interests of the country. He must say that the discussions in this and the other House of Parliament had, by exciting the feelings of the people_ of the two countries, greatly im peded the efforts of the Governments of France and 'England.—(Hear, hear.) He would not of course im pute to the Right HOnourable Gentleman any desire to stir up those feelings of enmity, or embitter animo sities. He must of course acquit the Right Honourable 'Gentleman, but he must say that no course was more calculated`to promote those evils than that which the Right Hon. Gentleman pursued.—(Hear, hear.) 'The Right Hon. Baronet then alluded to the terms of the original motion, which he supposed the Right Hon. Gentleman had changed in consequence of his (Sir Robert Peel's) observations, on Friday night, on the extraordinary nature of that -motion. The Right Hon. Gentleman had moved for a Select Committee to inquire under what circumstances the French had be come possessed of Algiers, and how far the extension of French conquest was consistent with the interests of this country. Why, what would be said in this country if Select Committees were . appointed in the French Chambers to inquire how far our conquests in Hong 'Kong were consistent with French interests.—(Hear, Nan) The Right Hon. Gentleman then explained the nature of the communications which had taken plane 1 2 . tween Lord Stuart de Rothesayrd the Princ _de Polignac on the invasion of Algiera Charles the Tenth, in assur ance to the English A t l h inister, afierthe ga s v u e cc which the Princey the French under f e u s l s l c t, French arms there, at acquisition of territory was not the Object of French invasion,. but redress for an injury, and there was every reason to place the fullest credit on that assurance. In July, 1830, the Bourbons, " (1 the Conservative Government which went out of office a few days after, at once re cognised the Government of Louis Phillippe. A new dynasty was placed on the Throne with the good grill of the French people. - The continental Pewers were wavering as to the course, which they should pursue ; trod this country seeing that the will of the French people was unequivocally expressed as to the change of dynasty, gave an example. to the continental Powers, and recognised the change which took place. The Right Hon. Gentleman would advise them to take that oppor tuni y of °Wei Lag satieitctory explanations from France with regard to .A.Jgters. Communications had passed on that subject bet Ween the British. and French Govern ments after that event. Lord Aberdeen moved for the correspondence in the House of Lords in 1832,. when Lord Grey wa# at the head of the Governuient, but, at tthe request of Lord Grey, he withdrew his motion, On the 15th of November, 1830, Lord Grey came into office svith both the Noble Lords whom he saw opposite. They w e re ie p os session of power for eleven years ; they bad all tie facts before them ; and yet they acquiesced in the military oceusiation of Algieee by the French, — (Hear, hear.) N remonstrance wag spade against that occupation. They stated that "if the eon...pest:3 of the French in Africa were limited to the territory a Algierst it would not endanger the harmony and goed understead• ing which existed between the British and French Go vernments." He did net mean to blame the late Government for that, seeing how desirable it was tJ maintain the government of Louis Phi lippe iu France, • and that the demand for fulfilling the engagements of Mons. Polignite would ex cite irritable feelings on the part of the French people. But did not the aequiescence in the possession of Algiers by the French, for eleveygyears, make the greatest diffe rence in that q uestion.—(Henta /PATO And the late Go vernment had not;e:e of the intention of France to keep possession of Algeria, s for, in answer to a esnestion put by Marshal Clan-el to ;Marshal Soult, in 1888, in the French Chambers, Marshal coult said that the French Government were in favour of the colonisatien of Alge ria ; that up to the present moment they had not the slightest intention of evacuating Algeria, end that the whale course of their conduct showed that they contem splateii its permanent occupation, and that they had nothing to fear from any one who might meditate their disturbance. The British Government were, therefore, aware of the intentions of France as to the retention of Algeria, and yet they made no remonstrance against it. But, considering the position of Louis Philippe, he did .not thialf the Government of Earl G re y or Lord Welhourne had acted unwisely in agreeing in the occu • spation of Algeria. They made no remonstrance, and their Consul now, as formerly continued, to act under eu exequatur. The Right Hon. Gentleman then re ferred to an ordinance of the 16th December last, im posing a duty on the introduction of British goods, and • ',imposing discriminating duties with regard- to British end French ships. This ordinanee was not directed against British ships in particular, but against those of all other nations ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman said that the important thing oas the principle of r nance. But he would prove that was decided l o n g be. fore, Mr. SHEIL—In 1835. Sir ROBERT PEEL—Yes, the Right Hon. Gentle man did not allude to the ordinance of 1835 in his speech. Mr. SHEIL—They are two distinct facts. Sir ROBERT PEEL said he admitted the ordinance of 1,543 was more important, but as to its wording and . the principle involved, it was the same as the ordinance of 1835, He - deeply regretted the exercise of this :fewer by the French, and that regret had been signified to the French Government.—(Hear.) Then the Right Gentleman paid a great compliment to the Bing of, the French and the French people ; and lie said be Was afraid the same course would be pursued with regard to Morocco which was pursued with respect to Algiers. The Right Hon. Gen tleman had a great advantage over him in this respect. He could not speak his opinions with that latitude and freedom which he could indulge in with regard to inter nal politics. for after the experience of the last Six weeks he found that be could not do so without pro. yoking feelings amongst the French people, and sub jeeting the French Government to taunts that they were mere instruments in the hands of die British Govern- Anent, and subjecting them to such accusations as the sight lion. Gentleman had directed towards the British tioverement.—(Hear, her.) But they had public de, teams-eons made in the face of Europe, and if they were oe l 0 e eejl—if there was no relesee for national honour ---treaties would have very little effek - it, Declarations ha been madei,the face of Europe by the FrAttph Go vet 'meat fielder esa what had been notified to tte British. Goveromenn. that: the French had • no desire to ITOtted to hostllities—that 14.ey were most anxious bti eaaintain peace,-and lad no lierieringl cause of war or conflict with Meese - no, He saw lay dip. Right Ho'n. Gentleman that he distrusted these statetneitts. After the elaborate compliments which he had paid to the King of the French and to the French people, he did mot think he ought to sneer at those declarations, The light lien. Gentleman seemed desirous of main taining his popUlarity with the French people when he next visited Paris, without losing his patriotism in the House of Commons.—(Laughter.) Mr. SHEIL —I did not sneer. I said nothing. Sir R. PEEL knew that the Right Hon. Gentleman said nothing, but the Right Hon. Gentleman was natu rally so eloquent, that a shrug of his shoulders or a sneer on his face was as expressive as language from an other.—(Laughter.) Monsieur Guizot had declared in the French Chanibers that the French Government had no views of conquest with regard to Morocco—they had no views of territorial aggrandisement, as the terri tory of Algeria was quite sufficient for France. He said that they disclaimed cherishing any views of the sort, but they merely demanded from the Emperor of Morocco that they should live in peace and their frontier be secure. They demanded that the assembling of troops by the agents of Morocco or Abd-el-Fader should be pre ventei, that those officers who, contrary to the rights of 'nations, httd attacked them, should be recalled and punished, and that if the Emperor of Morocco were de sirous of giving an asylum to Abd-el-Kader, he should be directed to repair to the interior or to the tea-coast, and that a fixed residence should be assigned him, and that guarantees should be given that from a friendly state he would not direct his-attacks on another friendly state. Such were the intimations given by the French , Government in the most frank and unreserved manner.. The Right Hon. Gentleman hod adverted to the state of their naval force, and taunted them with their leaving it neglected. There was no doubt, that seeing the revenue of the country was insufficient to meet the expenses of the country, they thought it right to husband the s public money as much as possible ; but he thought that they had not neglected the exigencies of the public service. In 1838 (he was now speaking of grants for the efficient service of the navy, discarding the estimate for the packet ser vice and the revenue service) —in 1838 the estimate for this effect of the naval service was 3,085,0001. Last year it was 4,400,0001. The estimates for the last four years had been larger than for ten years previous, though it was true they had not maintained the same number of ships in commission. Yet this country would be enabled in a short period, and with the consent of that House, to make a naval demonstration worthy of its great fame as a naval power. They had voted 33,000 seamen and marines. When the naval estimates -were under consi deration, the Gallant Commodore opposite said that though there was a number of ships in. commission in the Mediterranean, they were not properly manned. He said this to shew that the number of ships in commis sion was not a proper estimate of naval strength. They might have a comparatively small number of ships in commission, well manned and appointed, and yet they might be more strong in naval power if they had had more ships, but . not so effectually manned. The Right Hon. Gentleman called for an account of the fleet: he hoped no Hon. Member would second him on such a motion. He had now stated all that he considered it ne cessary to say with respect to the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had attempted to show, that if, in 1341, they acquiesced in the continued occupation of Algiers by France, they had acquiesced in consequence of the course of society, and in consequence of the preced ing acquiescence of their predecessors, which he did not blame; but, in giving that acquiescence, it was expected that France would state that it would not extend its conquests to Tunis or Morocco. That declarati 'n had been made. The Noble Lord must recollect that this question of Algiers had been discussed when he was Foreign Secretary; and if he (Sir R. Peel) appeared rather backward in giving information on this subject, it must be remembered that he was only fol lowing the example that had been set him by the Noble Lord. He was of opinion that it would be inconsistent with the duty of a Minister to give up any corre spondence that had taken place between this Govern ment and that of Morocco on this subject. He trusted, upon consideration, that the Hon. Gentleman would allow the motion to be negatived. If he (Sir R. Peel) had spoken with reserve on this question, he hoped the House would consider the difficulties in which he was placed. He had been anxious to avoid the expression of any opinion which might tend to -diminish the autho rity of this country to maintain an honourable peace. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that so far as his own views and intentions were concerned, he should not have made any motion on this subject, and considering the present state of affairs with respect to France and Mo rocco, he would have waited before he asked for further information from the Government. He thought, how ever, that as his Right Hon. and Lsarned Friend had judged it expedient to make the motion, it was but jus tice in him to state that nothing could be more tempe rate than the motion, and nothing more guarded than the language that had been employed. He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had misunderstood his Right Hon. Friend on this subject. His Right Hon. Friend had made a statement with regard to what took place in 1830 as to the occupation of Algiers, but the Right Hon. Gentleman said now, was it intended, that having been out of office since 1841, they should now insist upon the evacuation of Algiers ? The Right Honourable Gentleman was an abfe debater when he had to deal with substantial Arguments, but, singular to say, when he had to deal with shadows he employed greater force than with substantial arguments. They had never thought it desirable to make any demand on France with respect to the possession of Algiers. They had upon one or more occasions asked for explanations with respect to future aggrandisements, more especially with regard to Tunis and Morocco ;- and assurances on that subject had been given which were considered satisfac tory, and those assurances had been renewed. Under those circumstances he should not have felt called upon to ask for any further information on the subject. He thought that the demands made by France on the Government of Morocco were but fair. They involved, however, several most im portant questions ; and if those demands were not complied with, then came the question, how the war was to be carried on ? Considering the complexion affairs bad taken, he was not disposed to ,press the Go vernment as to their policy on this subject. There was a party in France that had a blind partiality to war, not I from anyhope of keeping up the dignity and honour of France, but merely from a love of war itself. The pre sent Government of France had manfully opposed itself to that desire among its own people, and such being the case, he (Lord J. Russell) would be the less disposed to Press upon the Government the making of statements that might be grating to the French people. While he would not press the Government to give any answer with respect to questions on which they might be en gaged in diplomatic negotiations with France, yet he thought the Government were not justified in the line the had taken with respect tonaval defence, It was a very diff-rent thing to say that the House of Commons should interfere to control the negotiations with foreign powers, and to say in what manner the supplies- that had been' cheerfully voted had been applied by the Minister of the Crown. The Right Hon. Gentleman had upon this oc casion renewed his protest against being asked concerning the naval force of this country. Why such questions were consonant with precedent. In the times of Chat ham and of Pitt they were constantly put, and the late Government was constantly exposed to such questions. Some time since, he (Lord John Russell) stated that he thought it much better to have a sufficient force ready than to send one out in cases of emergency, and upon that occasion he we net by a joke from the Right lion. Raronet. Was it to be said that the House was to grant money, end they were not to ask how it was spent ? For himself' he was one that would not- -con sent to such a doctrine. Now, what was the state of the navy of this country in 1838, and at the present day? InlB3B, there were eighteen line-of-battle ships, while in Ju1y,1844, these were only nine. In 1838 there were twenty-nine frigates, when at the present time there 'were thirty-two. The total num ber of line-of-battle ships in 1835 was one hundred and thirty-eight, now there were only thirty-sib. If it was found that ships should all have their regular comple ment of men, was it not, he would ask, equally right that they should have a sufficient number of ships? That might increase the estimates, but that could - not - be helped. In OM there were seven line-of -battle ships in. the Mediterranean. In 1841, seventeen. In 1844, one, and at the present moment there were only two lineeofs batle snips iu the Mediterranean. So that , a t the pre sent inonsept, they had only two line - of - battle s hi p s at their disposal, New he would put it to any Hon. Mem ber whether that was sufficient for every emergency ? In 1838 his Hon. Friend, the Member for Halifax, in pro ppsing the estimates for 1839, thought it right to go at ep~Atkerable length into the subject, in order to show that there 'as a s ufficient 'force at that.times. His opinimi was opposed by several Hon. Members, who denied that the ferce was then spfficient If it was rot . • i so then, what, he wom. s ask, was the state of things at the precast moment ? The pr6Nut was a Parliamentary question, and one which it was competent to Hon, Members who had voted money away to bring forward. The complaint was not that the Government had not taken a sufficient sum as an estimate for the naval force, but the people having this burden to bear, having these taxes to pay, ventured to ask if, in return, they had i naval power sufficient to meet any emergency. There were other questions he might ask with respect to the naval estimates, but he should be told perhaps that the most proper time to do so was at the time they were proposed. They had perhaps granted them with too little inquiry, but when they came before the Honse again they might perhaps have some questions to ask as to what wasbest to be done with respect to the building of new ships. It would perhaps be necessary to aals. what large ships were ready to be brought forward, or reedy to belaur a ched.—(Hear, hear.) He should be very glad if - the Secretary- of the Admiralty would be able to give a satisfactory answee to this question ; but he had heard statements which ted hten to doubt very much whether he would be able to do 44. But with respect to the question before the HOMO, it was fptOly distinct from that of foreign negotiations ; at the same time he her lievssd Ow the objection stated by the Right lion. Pe ronet was wall founded — that althou g h there mi g ht not be any . positive 4apger, perhaps hardly any inconve nience in granting 41.0 . ittiorMation called for, yet it m ight be made a bud prePetie4t at a nother time, when it might be desira ble not to give on euthority e state ment of the destination of any particular fore*. That objection, therefore, applying to any Government, and any House of expritons, would, he hoped, have weight with his Right Ilon. Frlep r sl l and that he would not press for the production of the inioriess;:on : But he muse say that, with cggsrd to negotiations, he 5h04.4 p.ot be at all inflasenced by slay ejamoure that might be raised as t o the Government being indifferent to the national honour. In England the Gaverom,en t t wets charged with neg-. lecting the national interests an4ll.O4AuF; 6.0 in France the French Government was eubjecteVt§ ettatrze. He should be disposed to pay but iittie att.el4 - i 600 ,0 OWS6 statements, nor would they be siAlCicint to induce him to take ally step to intenere with negotia tions that might be pending. Aet with regard to the position of the country generally, he 'dist 6144; teat tie attention had not been paid to the state of - the navy.es--0 Haar, hear," from Sir C. Napier.) He thought there had been a culpable neglect, and he should wish a sufficient. force maintained to support the dignity Of the nation, and to avenge any insult. - Mr. M. MILNES said be was glad that the`Noble Lord did not view with any great apprehension the pre sent state of affairs in Morocco. • Lord J. RUSSELL said' what he stated was, that he Was not without apprehension. Mr. M. MIEN ES—lle did.understand the Noble Lord to say, that he did not regard with any immediate fear the present state of the relations between France and Morocco ; he, therefore, thought' that he had rested rather too strongly on what he thought The culpability of her Majesty's Government as to the amount of the naval force. The Noble Lord appeared somewhat too anxious to have the navy put upon a war footing, but he (Mr. Milnes) believed that - whateier might be the aspect "of affairs at present, the Noble Secretary of State for. Fo reign affairs would be so far equal to his predecessor in the art of " protocoliSing," as to 'be able to defer that unfortunate event for a , considerable period. - lie con fessed he had seen the notice of the present motion with great pain; because he thought its purpose might be mis understood. It should be remembered that there was a considerable war party'in France, and it was necessary for this country to act with some caution, so as not to excite that party, and thus increase the difficulties of the French Government. He referred to the occupation of Algeria by the French, and stated his convic tion that it entailed a great loss on the French people. With regard to. the present operations, though he should be the. last to treat with disregard the sovereign virtues, and the religious en thusiasm of the native population, yet he felt that the time was come when they must receive the advantages of civilization, even if they should obtain it at the hard price of war. He thought that it was impossible that the whole of the African coast, bordering on the Medi terranean, could any longer be abandoned to these hordes of barbarians. He hoped, however, that the Right Hon. Baronet would see that the best course he could adopt would be to withdraw the motion. And in doing so it would be well if he would reiterate to the House in the strongest terms his assertion that he had not brought it forward from any hostile feeling towards France, but from anxiety for the honour of this country, combined with a spirit of good-will towards our great and generous neighbour. Mr. HUME said he was at first afraid that the Liberal party on that side of the House were about to play the , game that had been pursued on former occasions, of urging the Government into hostilities, hilt he was glad to hear from the Right 'Hon. Gentlemen that his motion was not ,so intended. It appeared to him that the motion, as taken up by the Right Hon. Baronet, involved two questions • first, how much they were to expend on their naval force, and, secondly, how far the 'House was to interfere in negotiations with respect to the first question, about which the Right lion. Baronet felt rather toe sensitive. He thought the more the Parliament knew about the des tination and disposal of the navy the better. He thought the Right Hon. Baronet deserved the thanks of the country for the reductions he had made, and wisely made, in the naval establishment. There was a power ful war party in France, and a very mischievous one. Every act of the English Government was turned by that party to the purposes of excitement. And what, was more, likely to create that spirit than unnecessary arna ment on the part of England? He was always for keep ing up a proper force ; but there was this consideration, that when England armed, all the rest of the world armed also—when England increased her. fleet, France in creased her's also. They would not believe that Eng land did it in mere self-defence, but would attribute it to some aggressive motive. With respect to the motion for a Committee, he would ask how this country would have regarded a Committee of the French Chamber, appointed to inquire into our right to occupy Sinde or the island of Hong-Kong ?—(Hear, hear.) He thought England had been too sensitive, and too much disposed to intermeddle in the affairs of other nations. He be lieved the Goverment of France felt the danger of en tering upon a war, and with the declaration it had made that it had no intention of encroaching upon the domi nions of Morocco he thought they ought to be satisfied. He was glad to understand that it was not the intentions of the motion to increase the feeling in favour of a war; and that, beyond the necessity of keeping up a sufficient force to maintain the dignity of the country, the Hon. and Learned Member was not desirous of going. Mr. MACKINN€ N. said, as he did not wish to detain the House from going into Committee, he should ad dress to it a very few words, and those would refer chiefly to the occupation of Algiers by the French. In this country, even if there were a feeling in favour of a war, he believed that feeling would be kept down by the force of the Government. But in France that was not the case. There there was an immense population; a large mese of whom had everything to gain and nothing to lose by engaging in a war, and who were ready to rush into one at any time, and fur any reason. Under these circumstances, he considered the occupation of Al giers by the French as a good thing for this country. It acted as a safety valve, which carried off the more unquiet spirits of France. It served as an outlet for the discontented portion of the troops of France, which were exchanged for others more inclined to support the Government. France was in that position in which she must have external war or internal discontent. Under these circumstances, he believed that the occupation of Algiers was of the greatest advantage to the whole of Europe. Sir C. NAPIER could not agree with the Hon. Gentleman that the occupation of Algiers by France would be beneficial to this country. He thought the occupation had, and was likely still further to lead, to disadvantageous results to this country. France had repeatedly declared that it was not her intention to occupy Algiers, but merely to punish the Dey for having offered an insult to France. This promise, although often repeated, the Government of this country had never demanded should be reduced to writing. We ought never to have permitted France to take pos session of Algiers, far less Morocco, which was of ten thousand times more importance to us: Perhaps at the very moment at which he was speaking the Prince tie Joinville was bombarding Tangiers. He thought, therefore, that they had a right to call upon the Govern ment to take steps for the protection of British interests. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government always became very sensitive when allusion 'was made to the state of the navy. The present state of the navy had not been equalled for ten or fifteen years past. lie remembered in the year 1839 the then Government being attacked in consequence of the navy being in an ineffi cient state. The attack was commenced by Lord Col chester, and seconded by Lord Hardwick. Now what was the state of the navy . in 1839 ? We had then 34,165 seamen, boys, and marines, and 21 sail of the line. What did Lord Melville, who was a very good authorit y , then say ? He certainly did not join in the attack on the ,Government, but he pointed out the necessity of keeping up a large peace establishment—much larger than we were accustomed to do in consequence of the extensive use of steam power, which, to a certain extent, had destroyed our coast ing trade, and thereby rendered it more difficult to obtain seamen for the navy. The Duke of Wellington on that occasion said, "Here we have war in Aillericat and war in Asia, with an establishment that is not even ade quate for the wants of peace." The Right Hon. Baronet himself said that it was impossible to see the exertions which were being made by France and Russia without apprehension • it was impossible to exclude those mari time Powers frout the consideration of the House. fie (Sir Charles Napier) would quote one other sagepae from the Right Hon. Baronet's speech, which w strange eantrast with the opinions which he held now. The Right Hon. Gentleman " that if it was then ne cessary to have eleven sail of the line in the Mediterra nean, and two ships at Lisbon, all he could say was that sewn sail of the line was very inadequate to protect the coasts of this country." Yet the language of the Right there Hon w . Ge e n r t e lem t a w n ent w y a -ix was Very diff o e f ren t t he now ii . ne, ln w 1 8 4 4 41 a naval estimate for 43,000 Men. In 1843 the Right Henourable Baronet reduced the naval force to 39,000 men, and the float in the Mediterranean to six or seven ships. In 1844, the force was further reduced to 36;000 men ; and that was what it remained at the pre sent moment. The Right Hon. Gentleman said it was not , men at all, but ships that constituted the navy. Why,. the Right Hon, Gentleman might just as well say that fine barracks constituted an army. lie depre cated the system of manning ships with marines, .as had been done lately with respect to the Caledonia.. He asked, whether it was a fit state for the nav y to be in, when they found a ninety.two gun ship sent out with 750 men, which was only the complement of an eighty four gun ship ? There was but one line-of-battle ship to guard the coasts of this country, and that was the , Queen, which was fitting at Plymouth. It had taken this" ship three months to fit—she being at present fitting for a flag ship. It had been said that we could fit:out a fleet in six months, Now, iv answer to this, he would just refer to what had taken place in 1840, Alen it was found to be of the utmost importance to get a fleet ready of the Mediterranean. The Vanguard was commie sipped in February, and that ship did not arrive in the Mediterranean until the middle of November. The Calcutta was fitted opt at the same time, but did not arrive until December, and the remaining ships in tended for the station never arrived at all. Now, he would ask, whether they could confide in the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet, when he said he could do what no 'other Government bad yet been able to accom 'plish—viz., fit out a fleet in six months? The Vrennh at the present moment had eight sail of the line in come naision in Mediterranean—they had alao ships which y' re piled commission de rode. These ships were well officered and !permed. The French, too, had fifty-three sail of the line on the stacks, WNPh was just as good as their being in the water. He had always lipid, and he held it still, that the system of commissioning and pay, ing our ships off was neither wise, politic, nor economi cal. The expense of commissioning a ship and payipg her off was very great. A ship was commissioned for a short firne, as oppy.si, )p pa jet require, and when the necessity had posed away, she ».es immediately peid off, and she re mainerl in 0r4414ry until aneiher bpPOPII arose, when they were obliged to go through the same coursp Pyer again. Now, under such is sy§tera !ts this, how was it possible for young officers—our lieutenants died mates— Ip n avy to learn anything of seamanship ? They 00ni.4 iv* do it unless they were kept constantly at sea. One ship had lately eeterped from the Mediterranean, where she had been ree tbyep . yearti ? havin been stationed at Malta during that Now could the officers on board such a ship as 'earn anything of seamanship ? As far as the girenery went no Ceiebt they excelled, but of seaman -1 ship they foie* VeYy l littlt. • Tine Road of Admiralty had lately built six experimental' knigg.` "He had hoped those brigs tent out in'whieh=young officers had ?eh ;t 41-order to acquire some-experience in then. 1312°1 " 4 " 4 ' tr l tiss h ieti 4 d li t f ilfir . rtli r e ' l ia rtt n AW o 7, 14 tb :ro e 0 3 rt; NN l: p i 2 e • hoped any. .- iniiiieneed by obstinacy= seemed to be a gooa uee. _ ee...useee nt (Laughter)—would yet honestly come to fcopru could e navy. t vy agree with the Lion. thataM e Ld m o ask o r b u d e r r f NforGm more ;SeTlMontrose establishment eEn s h i n o u s l a d y ibneg reduced e i d t woe? the Wt . . ...,_ 7,,,...„, . 8, ..„.., „._ , ::,.,;,`?..: '' I .'. '::-Z -, DON, TUESDAY EVENING, SILLY 23, 1944. _possible standard; for , if they were , to do so they wouid abolish the school, ill which our officers and seamen at- - tained their experience." When the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman who spoke last alluded to. the attack which was made upon the Government in .1839,. he: must have. forgotten that at that time great fears were entertained of a Turkish war. The ships 'were now fully and efficiently manned, but 'a very different gate of things prevailed in 1838. Ila maintained that the change in this respect was one of great importance to the honour and interest of this country. complaints, were made in 1838 of the want of ships at home. It was of the greatest importance that we should be ready for every exigency, and tharthe officers and seamen should be kept in a proper state of • discipline by cr u i s i ng i n th e Ch an nel. One reason why , he had always- maint a in e d that 'ships should be suffi ciently manned was, that in case of -necessity the men might. • be made into two: companies, and the deficiency supplied by land smen . . Six_G.. COCKI3I.TRN said he was of opinion that they should always ke e p Up* the number of officers and sea men, but,.at the same time, it was usual to lower the armaments in time of peace, and it was for the Cabinet to decide, upon a calculation of the chances of war, Whe the it 'was necessary to have a large fleet, or only • a small oae.—(Hear.) Every officer in the navy stated that the greatest inconvenience arose from having_ the ships undermanned. He had always thought'that it was better to have_one ship efficiently manned than two_ imperfectly,—(Hear, hear.) - With reference to the observations of the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, he must say that although the force was not a large one, it was respectable, and, as he had already_ said, it was for the Cabinet to judge whether there was any chance of war or-not, and to act accordingly. The Gallant'COmmodore had referred tolhe sending out of . marines in the C a l e d o ni a . Th e ma rines having been used tOthe gre a t guns were quite. as competent to Man them as the sea men , and therefore they had taken 150 of ettch. All their shipS now , carried very much heavier guns than :they did formerly, and , it was very necessary that they should be efficiently manned: With very few exceptions the reports male to the "Admiralty; in reference to the ships which had re turned home, were perfectly satisfactery. .Th'ey had taken the engines out of the larger steam-vessels, and put thein into smaller-ones, while for the former larger engines had beea provided:: The Gallant Officer com plained of the want.of experience on the part of the lieu tenants of the navy. Why, almost every captain, on re turning home, told the Admiralty that there had never . been such goodofficers.—(Hear, hear.) . He (Sir George Cockburn) .firmly- believed that both ships , and officers were in good condition. They had a very considerable force On every station, although, as they had the interest of the British merchant to look to in every part of the world, their force was much subdivided. It was true that _France had fifteen sail of the line inahe Mediterranean, but England had:more ships ready; fOr sea than France had both on the stocks and at sea. With regard to the long time which it took to man vessels, he begged to ob serve that the officers were very careful in their selection of seamen, refusing as many as they received, in order to secure an efficient force. He believed that if they had a war with France, or any other maritime power, they had quite force enough for that purpose. Mr. M 3RE O'FERRALL was exceedingly surprised at the manner in which the Right Hon Gentleman had treated the remarks of his Right Hon. Friend. Nothing could be niore natural than that having been connectta With the late Government, as he had been, he should take an interest in such a question.—(Hear, hear.) The year 1838 had been -particularly referred to, and he begged to refer to the opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. reel) expressed at that time. The Right Hon. Gentleman complained at that time that there was but one brig in the vicinity of the French fleet at the time when it was in the neighbourhood of Mexico. Four ships were on their way at that very time, and they were only detained by adverse winds, over which the Government had no control. A state of things now existed as regarded the Mediterranean which was very similar to that in question.—(Hear, hear.) The Gallant Officer who had just addressed the House had compared the complement of men in 1838. Hewes prepared to show that the war complement fixed by the present Board of Admiralty was less that that fixed by the late one. Take the example of two ships, the Collingwood of 80 and the Rodney of 92. What was the number of men fixed by the present regulations for those two ships? - Why precisely the same under the late Admiralty for ships of 80 and of 92 guns-759 men. He denied that the larger class of ships were so well manned now as they were under the late Government. After all the results were the things to be looked at. Now, he would first state to the House what were the complaints of men in some of the great naval actions. In Lord St. Vincent's action there were five 74-gun ships, with an average of 575 men. In Lord Duncan's action, the average was 554 to every 74. In the action at Trafal gar, Lord Nelson had sixteen third-rates, with an average of 563 men each. Now a great deal had been said of the wretched way in which the Mediterranean fleet had been manned under the late Government, and yet it appeared from the returns that, in 1840, the the third-rates in the Mediterranean averaged 628 men each, while French ships of the same class had only 598 men. Now he would ask if the calumnies which had been uttered against the late Admiralty were fair or just? Another accusation which had been brought against the late Government was that they did not keep up a still cient force at home. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that seven sail of the line was too small a force to de- Among other improvements which the present Govern ment had introduced; was the-making- a-marine-corps-of artillery.—(Cheers.) The men of. this corps were effec tive and vigorous men, and were in addition to the usual complement of marines allowed to each ship.. The flag ships were sent ont every year fully manned.' The Hon. Gentleman had' said that, according to the plan of the last Government, none of these ships ought to sail with out a complement of 800 men. Now he could under take to say, ,that no ship under the late Government had ever sailed with that full complement, and it did not signify what ahe ought to have had, but what she actually had. The -present Government had increased the actual complement. There were three ships more in commission, and 2,000 men more employed, than in 1839. He thought the motion unnecessary, and should oppose it. Captain PECHELL exclaimed against the mode of budding war-ships—the' preient war- strainers were awkward and unmanageable, and the most effiCient 'of 4hern had been employed in Ireland collecting poor rates. Mr. ROSS said a few words ; after which, Lord PALMERSTON said the House was much in debted to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the motion he had made. He did not think, after all, that it was open, to the objections which the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Governmen had made against it. In fact, the Right Hon. Baronet in the commencement of his speech confined his critical observations not to the mo tion which had been made, but to the motion which had not been made. The motion of which his Right Hon. Friend had given notice had not even been pet on the books. He was willing to admit that the present motion was preferable to the former ; hut he did not think the former motion deserved the censure the Right Hon. Baronet had cast upon it. The Right Hon. Gen tleman said it was a motion to inquire into the manner in which the French became possessed of Algiers, and added, that a motion in the French Chambers to inquire how the British became possessed of llong-Kong would be a legitimate course. Now, he (Lord Palmerston) thought there would be the greatest possible difference between those two motions. It should be recollected, that if a motion were made to inquire into the mode in which the French became possessed of Algiers, it would be for the purpose of ascertaining the conduct, not of the French, 'but of the English Government. No such grounds existed with respect to Hong-Kong, and, there fore, he held 'the cases to be entirely different. His Right Hon. Friend had been found fault with by sortie for starting a question of such a delicate nature as this while negotiations were still going on between England and France; and it was said by the Hon. Member for Lyrnington, 'that, considering there was a party in France who were anxious for war with England, who were likely to overpower the Government of France, and compel that country to go into a war with England. That being the ease, it was very inexpedient in that House to discuss our foreign interests, or to inquire whether our naval establish ment was in a position to meet any Sudden emergency. He (Lord Palmerston) utterly denied the force of that argument, and on the contrary, if such an argument were propounded on the fact of the existence of such a party in any other country, that argument would rather lead to the opposite conclusion than that which had been drawn from it; for, assuming that in France or, any Other country, there was a party likely to overpower the Government of that country, and to compel that country to commence war with England—so far from that being a reason for this country being silent on the subject, he thought it was a reason fur additional vigilance on the part of the Government in securing the means of meeting such an emergency. He discarded from him the considera tion of suchacircumstance. He thought that House ought not to permit itself . to be debarred from looking to the interests of this country, whether those interests sisted of foreign commercial relations, or the means of military defence, by any consideration as to the feelings of persons in any foreign country. He hoped they would always abstain from unnecessarily wounding the feelings of any party or any country, or unnecessarily producing irritation in our own; but he held that the interest of England ought to be a paramount consideration; and it was not becoming in that House to be deterred from entering into the consideration of the conduct of a Government by -speculations as to how it might agree with the feelings of this or that Govern ment, or the opinions of this or that party in any coun try. His (Lord Palmerston's) Right Hon. Friend had taken a course which was perfectly legitimate. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite chose to assume that his iiight Hon. Friend had argued that the present Go vernment or the late Government ought to have called upon France to evacuate Algiers. His Right Hon. Friend had used no such argument. His argument was, that looking at the negotiations which had taken place in 1830 between the British Government and the Go vernmefit of France,. with respect to Algiers, looking to those negotiations, the Government of that day had not properly performed their duty in getting security from the Government of France; and, therefore, confidence could not be placed in the energy and the vigilance of the Government with regard to those negotiations. He thought that argument a perfectly fair one, and if any body would take the trouble of - reading those papers which were laid before Parliament in the year 1839, which were very short on the negotiations respecting Algiers ; they would see that this country had failed entirely in extracting from the Government of France those engagements which were important to be obtained. He thought they had a right to require from the Government of France engagements, formal, official, written engagements that, in the event of the overthrow of the Regency of Algiers, the French should not obtain any permanent internal advantages or aggrandisements in Africa. As surances were given verbally, and everybody knew that verbal assurances went for nothing, and were binding upon nobody but the man that made them. The Go vernment of this country pressed the Government of France to give written assurances, and that Government wrote a dispatch to their Ambassador here, in which they stated that, in the event of success, they would make their views subservient to the wishes of their allks with regard to the arrangement of the affairs of the ex isting Regency. The Government of this country still pressed for written and specific declarations, but nothing more specific was received from the Government of France, and the expedition sailed without any specific and written declaration being made. That expedition was successful, and upon . hearing of this, what did our Am bassador at Paris do ? On hearing of the success of the, expeditia, he waited on Prince Polignac, and congratulated him upon the event, and expressed a hope that now they had succeeded in their expedition they would not fly from those as surances which they had given before the expedition sailed. Was that the language which ought to have been used by our Ambassador ? Prince Polignac assured them that France had no inclination to depart from her promises. If proper negotiations had been entered into before the expedition sailed this would not have been the language used by either party. It might be said that the Government of that day were actuated by a desire to keep in office the Ministry of Prince Polignac, and by a desire to do something useful to the dynasty then reigning. But everybody knew long before the change took place which overthrew that dynasty that it was inevitable: In the January preceding there was no man who walked the streets of Paris who did not well know what was about to happen ; but the existing Government in this country did not attempt to obtain any specific declaration in the four months succeeding the change. Was it for them (the late Government), when they came into office in 1830, to take up a question that bad been left in that state by those who had gone before them? Considering the existing state of Europe, they did not think it was consistent with the interests of this country that they should call upon France to eva cuate a country which they had lately conquered, and conquered without any interference on the part of the preceding Government. But the Right Hon. Gentle man himself had' said that he did not impute any blame to the late Government, And, therefore, it was not neces sary for him to defend himself or his colleagues in any way on that point. He quite agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman that it was not expedient to go into any details upon this question, as he knew how expres sions which fell from persons in office were caught at and used injuriously to the public interest. He ab stained from entering into that question. It was, however, one of great importance.—(Hear, hear.) Much had been said with respect to the state of the navy, the result of which was this:—The Gentlemen on the other side when they sat on this were perpetually taunting the late' Government with neglecting the navy of the country, by keeping it at so low an ebb as to render it impossible to be effective. Why, at that time they had twenty sail of the line, and yet at the present moment, when by their own admission grave and serious matters, which might lead to unpleasant results, were under negotiation, they had only nine sail of the line, three of which were in distant seoantries, so that they had in fact only six sail of the line in England. The present Government had not carried out in office those principles of national protection which they loudly called for when out of office. Gentlemen on the other side of the House en deavoured to explain why this country had so few ships of the line by stating that several were in China, hut that was no excuse for the navy being in the state it was at the present moment, Then it was said that if there were not leo many ships as there should be, they were full of men. Why, they had been told thtit in somo &mall ships they had so many men that they could not work. This, he thought, showed that the present Administration was net of a very judicious character. The late Go vernment had left the present 1# force larger than they mild want, and their business was to let that force down to what they thought proper, but that they had not done. A proper naval force was, in his opinion, the best economy for England, because the time might arise when it would be nt.c.•asAary.. What, be would ask, was better celeulated to prevent other coml. treatillfg Erigland with insult, than the keep pig up of a sufficient naval force ? Re trusted that what had passed that evenir.g, and the observations that had ben made on a former occasion, would lead the Governs icent to take a different view with respect to Chase mat ters, and that in future they would hive a naval force, such es would b?, considered proper for a peace estab lishment. Such an establishment could not be wasis dered as a defiance to any country in than. world,—it was simply a defensive e,ystem ef pbliey. Such an es tablishment was necessary, in order to keep un good, nncleistanding With, every other country in the world. Whether his Right Hon. Friend weuld press his taus tion to a division he knew not, hut he thought his object had Isffisn attained' liy the discussion that had taken place. He thustdeprecate the imputations that had been dist against his Right Hon. Friend of e;clssysuring to prevent a good slnclerssatidieg between this country 0 1 4 Ifr o mF? whg‘liur4 thattall - wild knew Li m - rou ,t 1116 well avtire that he had no ekieh tl t i j oe t i n vim. The ItyPOdnimC ":;is then withdrawn. fend our own ports; yet at present there was no flag ship at Sheerness.—(llear, hear.) It was stated, in the debate of 1839, that Sheerness might be burned, and the Admi ralty aroused from their slumbers by the appearance of a hostile fleeton our coast—that our liberties and our exi,- tence were in danger. It feet it was almost impossible to over state all the nonsense that was uttered upon the subject,and he trusted that no Opposition would hereafter be guilty of conduct so disgraceful. He had no hesitation in saying that he apprehended no more danger to Sheerness, from there being no flag-ship there, than lie should be for the old palace of St. James's if the cap tain's guard were withdrawn. It had been on old cus tom to maintain a flag-ship at our naval arsenals, and a captain's guard at our palaces—not that any clang e• was apprehended • but what opinion would they enter tain of a Commander-in-Chief if he had so reduced:our forces as not to be able to afford a captain's guard to her Majesty's palaces, or a sentinel at the dock-yard gates? Yet that was what the Ministry bad done at tie present moment, when it was apparent from the cautious manner of the Right Hon. Gentleman that our foreign relations were not so satisfactory as could have been wished. The late GovernMent had also been charged with neglecting the building of ships. If the present Government had thought the statements they made when out of office correct, why did they not remedy the error when they came into office ? Almost the first thing they did was to reduce the estimates. The late Ministry left twenty-six sail of the line at sea; and all the yards at full work. A programme was laid down, by which each shipwright was required to produce a certain quantity of work in the year. In that year it had been ca l cu l ate d t h at e i g ht s t e amers would be built. Thr ee h a d b een l aunc hed, two were ready for launchin g , and three were on the stocks, and would have b een l aunc h e d during the • course of the financial year. They had taken a large vote for steam, and the present Government had diverted 10,0001. of it to another object—the providing means to extinguish fires in dock-yards, which might have been provided for by a separate vote in the following year. There was a d e fi c i ency of two-deckers in the navy, and oee had been set up , h ut t h e G a ll an t Officer opposite Filled that one clown, set a three-decker up, which was not wanted, and now, at the end of three years that three-docker was not more advanced than the two-decker was when it was pulled down. The Gallant Officer said that they had produced fifteen steamers, and he _recol lected arming them a frigate, which had been converted fact, the Gallant Officer wished to turn everything into the sy s t em o f th i rty years ago . A great d ea l h a d been paid on the subject of their employing pensioners on board ship. At the present moment there were from twenty to thirty decrepid old pensioners on board the St. Vincent. • Mr. S. HERBERT —No, no. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL was glad to hear it. All he could say was that he had his informa tion from a gentleman, who stated that he had con versed with one of these decrepid old men, who had stated to his informant that he had been at sea 40 years. He hoped he had not offended any foreign power by his observations. It was not necessary to make ,any boast of our force; there was no boast so powerful as telling the t rut h. He had observed with surprise an article on this subject in a Government newspaper, which could not have proceeded from the pen of a newspaper editor, and which, he hoped, had not proceeded from that of a Government official, giving a list of ships. Now, surely it was not necessary, in order to make a show, to put in our list the names of sheer hulks, and vessels avowedly useless. Our real force was about 5& sail of the line, which could be got ready for sea in five or six months at most ; and that was double Gallanttrheehealleei dr Perseus force jeep,v o other two co un t r i es . B u t hi s H on . an d h o ae r s nker whet was the use of ships, if we off the T ower f or th e purpose of re 'Under the late Government the but the pr esent B oar d of Admiralty had her,—(M ar k s of dissent from Sir George Cockburn.) Ile w as very g l a d to find such was not the case. There was a Bill before the House for the eiays had not Flrl of g i oso e tt auk'r i m nl r id of registration of seamen—a most useful measure, although he feared its provisions were too com pli ca t e d. H e s h ou ld like to s ee sailorehemes in all our great ports tinder the protection of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) Every sailor was liable to impressment, and consequently hail a claim epon the public ; and if they provided him w ith a h ome in every pert when he was ashore, they wetild be conferring a great twnefit upon him, and doing that which might be of great advantage to the naval service of the coueteet tr. WSW TIPRBp4T ;said the circumstances re different in 1 -83 from what they were at present. We tVere teen at the commencement of those differences w 'hi e h lee to the Syrian wee ,• enetthe argument of his ike g Vi Me e Friend had been that if it were necessary to keep up such a large fleet in the Mediteeeeneae, it wee &deo the manning of the Col a proper force hemp. 'rite 'Nil le could stetp, on the authority the ca p ta in of the Col ingwoied, 'that his difficulty was net in procuring, but in selecting men. The Noble Lord, the Tepee during the two year in which they had lin ie lil l s e :n ui W.ll b 6°€ e : r sellen : ti o ae r l'lnY L 4 o o n: ae o Ae n: °u h lri ad asked him about the ships been in they had put flinty ships of the Erie in it state of efficiency: " KE I !I, , , Sir C. NAR—Thet's not ship-building. - el le e'llMiel( tlteleßle bps it lea§ equive e 4 1 4 tg building PPY slops. With regard to the - ewe,. —eye. tittles Hope 491qe1110111w to the State of our steam na ey, he would observe that when tue press..., y came into power the steam navy consisted' of 14,000 horse power, and it new eelesieted of ?mop horse power. They had also increased t e number of 50-gun frigates, COMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH PRUSSIA. I Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had sow thaw .9,11U,e. 'yen notice of hi intention tcs move fir the correspond. el - to oat had taken place between the Prussian Govern ment and England relative to our commercial relations are.wished-setosv— t0....kn0w whether...the _Right Hun. Gentleman would be enabled to lay them on the table before the end of the Session ? ' " Mr. GLADSTONE said he was afraid he could not produce them before the end . of the session., ._ROYAL ACADEMY. • • Mr. - HUME then moved for an humble Address to her Majesty, " That, as patroness and comptroller of the Royal Academy . of Arts; she will be graciously pleased to take into consideration the laws and regula tionssof that institution, with a view of rendering it more conducive to the advancement of the fine arts, better suited to the spirit • and . circumstances . of, the present age, and more consonant with the original intention of. its royal founder s George: the Third.' In bringing forward this, motion he wished it to be shown that there was a desire to promote the fine arts in this country. The Royal Academy had, in his' opinion, abused thepatronage of the Crown. George the Third- intended .that it should be open. to all, but that intention had been altered by time. The trial that bad been given to the artists for decorations for the New `Houses of Parlianient had done more for the arts in this country than the Royal Academy ever since its institution. It was founded on an erroneous principle, as being seif-elected, and gave no chance'to rising artists. Ile referred again to the original 'institution of the Academy, and contended that it 'was meant to be 01 , LTI to the. public; he expressed his deep regret that this state of things should c ontin u e, a nd c o n c ludd by moving his resolution, leaving the House to deal with it as it thought fit. • • - - Sir ROBERT PEEL much regretted that the Honourable Gentleman had not had the opportunity of bringing forward hi s - mo ti on a t an e a rli er pe r i o d, he (Sir R. Peel) might have been able more fully to have expressed his strong sense of • the obligations under which This country was to . the institution of which the - Hon. • Member had spoken so unjustly. The ' Hon. Member bad mentioned the audacity of the President . of the institution in having given an opinion as to the exclusion of the public. Now the Hon. Member 'ought not to have spoken in those terms of the delivery of an opinion by an honourable man, perfectly independent of the Hon. Members of this House, who received no salary for the duties he performed, and who devoted the whele of his time to the performance .of those public duties ; and all who were acquainted with the manner in which Sir Martin Arthur. Shea discharged those duties must be aware of his ability and zeal. The Hon. Member said there had been a departure of the Royal Academy from the original conditions on which it had been founded. Now he held in his hand. the original charter, granted by George 111. in 1768, in which the number of the members of the Academy was prescribed at forty, having the power to elect their successors, there being a provision for the public exhibition of paintings; and by the 17th article it was evident that that exhibition was not. to' be gratuitous, since •it was provided that the profits arising from that 'exhibition should be applied to the purposes of the Aca demy, after deducting 200 L for indigent artists and their families. He affirmed that it was to the Royal Academy,. and not to the House of Commons, that the country was indebted for a national school of art. The whole con- , nexion which the Legislature had with the Royal Academy was the adhering to the original charter, by providing the Academy with - apartments. - George. 111. granted' it apartments in Somerset House, and they'cen- tinued there till the Government appropriated Somerset Ileuse for another purpose. Earl Grey gave them apart ments in the building, part of which was appropriated to the National Gallery. They did not ask for those rooms— they did not petition for them ; they merely received . what had been secured to them by sixty years' usage ; and this did not give any Member of that House a right to visit them with that annoyance which the Hon. Gen tleman had done. The Academy had spent no less than 300,0001. in the promotion of art. The Academy, from its own means, provided a professor of painting, of sculp ture, and anatomy—not for their own purposes, but for the general advantage of the arts. It gave gratuitous admission to its lectures to all who chose to attend them, and at its own expense it educated no less than 2,000 artists men who earned their money by the hardest labour, commenced at• the earliest period of their existence. Having done all this, it was too much for the Honburable Gentleman to turn round upon them and call them monopolists, and visit them with such censure merely because the Houseprovided them with the accommodation of certain rooms. But the Academy also provided pensions for decayed artists. From whom did Wilson receive sup port in the decline of his life ? Not from the public who supported the widow of Hogarth and the widow of the celebrated engraver Woollet. 'Not from the Crown. Not from the Civil List. Not from Parliament. But from those funds which were appropriated to this pur pose. He would tell the Hon. Gentleman what would be the consequence if they carried their interference too far. They would have no man, like Sir Francis Chantrey, I making a bequest, which was really a national one, though given to the Academy, because he felt it was a body independent of Parlia ment, and not subjected to continual interference. Even the expense of an annual dinner was borne out of the funds. If they might judge of the institution, not merely by the eminence of the men who belonged to it, but by their moral character, he thought he could not speak of it in too high terms. 'He had been brought much into intercourse with the members, and he knew the difficulties with which they : haktO'contend. in un prosperous times. He saw them - hlways exhibiting the feelings and maintaining the- of'genile men, and he did not knovv , iany -cies& i witichvought to stand higher in public opinion.: dittlicitiOhat that House would not sanction the:assault Made upon the Royal Academy by the Hon. Gentleman'. The Royal Academy entertained great respect for that House; but they would infinitely rather sever all connection withyar liament and with the Government, if they could only re tabs their present apartments on the condition of being subject to constant interference. He saw Gen , tlemen opposed to him in politics, who had had as frequent opportunities of judging of the merits of this institution as himself, and he trusted that they would join with him in deprecating this annual interference— that they would permit the Royal Academy to pursue the honourable tenour of its way, and not risk the evil consequences which he believed would arise to art in this country if they undertook to carry too far the prin ciple of interference 'with that institution.—(Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said that, after what the Right Hon. Gentleman had so. well said, he would only address a. few words to the House on the subject. He really thought the Hon. Gentleman had no case whatever, un less he could show that the public had contributed largely to the, support of this institution, and even- if that were the ease, it would be impossible to give a more satisfactory answer to the Hon. Gentleman than he had received from the Right Hon. Baronet. The Hon. Gentleman said that two-thirds of the pictures in this exhibition were contributed by those - who did not belong to the Academy. Why, if they asked those who visited the Academy which pictures attracted most attention, they would find that they were generally the pictures of those who either were, or soon became, members of the Academy.—(Hear, hear.) He was really surprised that the Hon. Gentleman would go on agitating this question. He hoped that those who were so deserving of the public respect would not feel hurt at the manner in which this question was being continually discussed. He was sure the great majority of that House wished to, see them continue in the same honourable course which they had hitherto pursued.—(Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON said there was no country which was provided with such an admirable school for art without any expense, nor was there any country in which the Government, as a, Government, contributed so little to art. Any one who had been to see the exhi bition now taking place in Westminster-hall, must have been struck with the great quantity of talent in sculpture which that exhibition-displayed ; and; on the other hand, any one who went to Trafalgar-square must per- Ceive how inadequate was the space provided there for the splendid models which required,to.he exhibited. — (Hear, hear.) Everybody was aware of the lively in- Serest which the Rightlien. Barenet at„the head of the Government felt in works cu' art, and he heeled that be tween that period and next year 'he would,devise some means by which - this opportunity for the display of public works would be greatly enlarged.-e-(Hear.) Mr. HUME then read a dos:unseat .of the Royal Academy, stating that up to the 12th exhibition nothing was charged for admission. He could give a very different account of the institution and of the advantages, derived from it from that which the House had heard ; but he would not trespass on the attention of the House. Sir R. PEEL wished to explain the circumstances to which the Hon. Gcuntieman had referred. George the Third * seeing that the public would give nothing to this institution for several years after it commenced gave to it 5,0001 a year ; and that was continued until the Aca demy informed his Majesty that they could support 'themselves by means of the exhibition, The motion was then negatived without a division. SUPPLY. The House then went into COnamittee of Supply. On the motion fer granting 4,4111. for the schools of design, Mr. WILLI4MS expressed his approbation of the VON Mr. FtWki. complained that two Members of t h at Ilouse had been refused admission to the Royal Ace clamy, He thought that was the height of impudencse Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman was eo good a judge of impudence, that he would not dispute with him on that_point.—(Laughter.) Mr. HUME said he would not be deterred by any ob servations of that kind from continuing to pursue that course which he conceived to be right. Mr. WYSE would remind the Right Hon. Baronet of what had passed on a former occasion, as to the pro priety of opening a gallery for the exhibition of casts from sculpture. He had received two petitions for pre.. sentation on that subject, one Vona the society in , and one from Lend," Ile believed that with the sub, scriptions anti the donations which would be received, a 'very small sum would be sufficient to forro such a gallery.--The vote wat then agreed ta. A vote of 2,000, for the salaries a certain professors in the Vnisersities of Oxford and Cambridge was then rced to. On a vote of 5,,a451 being proposed for the salaries of professors in Scotch Universities, Mr, HUME said that be approved of this vote, because an account VMS furnished as to the manner in which the money was expended, which was no t th e case w i t h t h e vote to Oxford - and Cambridge, and of that vote, there fore, he disapproved. --The vote was then agreed to. - ..A vote of 6,5004 was propose d f or the Port Patr i ck harbour. HM thought the vote of last year was to have Convicted he work. Sir GEORGE CLERK explained that this was the balance which last year it had been stated would be necessary to complete the work. I.pfd NEWRY asked if the Hon. Gentleman, had seen ! a report of Sir John Rennie's on this subject. Sir GEORGE CLERK had seen such a report, but the Government had been proceeding upon the report of Mr. Walker.—The vote was then agreed to. A vote of 6,0001. for the repair of the colleges of the University of St. Andrews's was agreed to after a few words fromCaPtitin LOCK HART. - ' -- A vote •or 8,000/. was then proposed for _the-comple tion of the Nehon monument in Trafalgar-squat.e. The announcement of this: vote by Sir G. aerie - was re ceived with loud cheers from all parts orthenouse. Mr. WYSE wished to ask whetinit•a proposition had not been some time since made by an artist, named Clarke, to - complete the monument without charge ? Sir R. PEEL said that certainly such an offer had been made by that artist, but the Government reserved to itself the right of considering the.subject...Be begged to. be understood as not intending to say a word in dis paragement of the artist ; but, in general, nothing could be su unwise as to accept these voluntary offers on the part ofartists. , Mr. WYSE• agreed entirely in what had been stated by the Right Hon. Baronet ; but at iheAime the offer was made ~the Government had -not come forward to .complete the work. There was a deficiency of funds for the completion of the column. ' Mr. GALLY KNIGHT hoped that the base would be made in proportion to the height. The column had been shortened some twenty or thirty feet, and the base was out of proportion. 11'hf...n he saw such a statue, with such a cocked hat—(A laugh) -he :could not help wishing tliat some. mole appropriate dt sign had been adopted - 4f showing our veneration for. the memory of our great naval hero: Many persons had taken the figure for that of Napoleon, and this instance of what they ' considered our national generosity had -had a great • effectin allaying .the irritation against us in France.— (A. laugh.) . lie wished to know a healer the lion and the other emb!ems, with which it was intended to adorn the base, were to be reduced in proportion to the re . ducedlsize of the coluMn ? Sir R. PEEL begged to state to his Hon. Friend, that the size of the lion was an open question.—(A laugh.) The Government bad not 'vet decided on the subject. Mr. B. COCHRANE said a report was prevalent that the Emperor of Russia had, whilst in this country, subscribed 500 Z towards the Nelson Monument; he wished to knoW if that were correct? Nothing could be more disgraceful .than that a national monument of this sort should bcy indebted for its completion to foreign aid. He understood that the column had been Curtailed twenty or, thirty feet from the inability of. the Cum niitteeto- Obtain - funds. In fact, this, as well as many -other public works recently undertaken, showo the ne , cessity of a Minister of Public Works in this country. •Sir Ito PEEL would call upon the 'House to bear in mind that the erection of this monument was originally a private affair. It . had been proposed to erect a monu ment to Nelson on the same principle as the two monu ments to the l)uke of Wellington, which had been re cently agreed to, by private subscription. One of these .monuments•was in the City, the other at the West-end. He could not help thinking that a spontaneous subscrip tion would be much more agreeable to the. distinguished objects of it than a Parliamentary grant.—(Hear, hear.) About 20,0001. had been originally subscribed to the Nelson monument, but it was found to be in sufficient. The shaft of the monument was- certainly curtailed from that - which was originally proposed, bat it was in accordance with the opinions of Sir R. Smirlee and Mr. Walker, who thought there would be danger in case of a hurricane, and the fall of such a monument in so crowded a thoroUghfare might be productive of in convenience.—.(Laughter.) Regarding the other ques tion, the donation of the Emperor of • Russia., he could onlyreply that it had been made before the Government had control over • the monument. It - was then in :he hands of a private Committee. His Imperial Majesty, wishing to mark his sense of the kind reception he had • in this country and to express his admiration of one of her most distinguished heroes, presented the donation of 500/, which the Committee, considering the slender condition of their funds, did not think they should be justified in returning.—(A laugh.) The gift was made when the column was under private management. After a few words from Mr. B. COCHRANE, A vote of 7,554/. was proposed for the purchase a ancient pictures for the National Gallery. The vote was then agreed to. 6,900/. was then proposed to enable the trustees of the British Museum to purchase certain books, manuscripts, coins, &c. Colonel RAWI)ON said there were enough manu scripts in Dublin to form memoirs of all the counties, except two in Ireland. He hoped the Right Hon. Gen tleman, at the head of the Government, would give some assurance that the publication - of these memoirs, would speedily take place. Sir R. PEEL said there was every wish on the part of Government to deal liberally with this subject. it was, however, their duty well to consider whether the demand for these memoirs would justify their publica tion. After a few observations from Mr. WYSB, the vote was agreed to. A vote of 90,000/. was agreed to for the purpose of de fraying the expense of the British settlement and esta blishment at Hong-Kong. A vote of 149,0001. for the disembodied militia in Ire land was also agreed to. On the vote of 19,0001. for the:repair of damage done to the gunpou der manufatetOrY..4t, yaltham Abbey by the - explosion, de Capiain PECHELL liskeetTAAVlSVecautions had been • taken against , Captain Warner--4n--the new buildings ? After what they hadseeu in the rapers to-day there really seemed to be no • safety. .CaptaillWarner had gone to Brighton—he wished he had gone anywhere else—for the sunken vessel would cause great damage to the nets of the fishermen. The Gallant,. Officer opposite was there—a parts to the transaction—and he wished to know if the Government would remedy the mischief it had caused. • Captain BOLDER() said he was there among forty thousand, as an amateur. He saw the vessel blown up, but how it was done he could not tell. The resolutions were then agreed to, end the report ordered to be received this day. • SOUTH SEA COMPANY BILL. The South Sea Company Bill went through Com mittee, and the report was ordered to be brought up this day. LAND-TAX COMMISSIONERS NAMES BILL. On the motion for the third reading of the Land49fc Commissioners Names Bill, Lord WORSLEY said he objected to clergymen being placed on the list, and he therefore begged.qt move, to omit the following names for the division of Horncastle and Hill, in the coumty of Lincoln:—The Rev. George .Thackeray, Heiningby ; the. Rev. Edward Walter, Langton by Horncastle • the Rev. Charles Terrott. Wispington ; the Rev. john Fawsett, llorneastle ; the Rev. Francis Pickford, Hagworthingham ; the Rev. Edward Price; Hagworthingham ; the Rev. J o h lk Thomas Maine, Harrington Hall ; the Rev. Henry Fielding, Salmonby. Sir G. CLERK said this was a most unusual course. The Noble Lord had been requested to draw up a list for the northern division of Lincolnshire, and in doing so he had omitted the names of clergymen. The Noble Lord's colleague, who did not entertain the same objec tions, had likewise t.ent in a list containing the names of clerzymen. If they were not qualified for serving they could not act without rendering themselves liable to a, penalty. Mr. HUME objeeted to clergymen - acting at all, anct would support the motion of the Noble Lord. After a few words from the. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and Lord WORSLEY, strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, whets there appeared— For the motion Against it 34 Majority against the motion -21 The Bill was then read a third time and passed. GILBERT UNIONS. Mr. BARNABY then rose to move that three be quorum on the Committee on the Gilbert I.lnhms. Mr. BROTHERTON said this motion would lead to discussion, and he should therefore move tivit the House do adjourn. The House divided, when there appeared— For the adjournment .. 6 Against it.. Majority Mr. BARNABY then proposed his motion. Captain PECH ELL opposed the -.notion as one that was quite unprecedented. He thought it was a reflew tint], on the Committee, as it implied neglect on their part. He should certainly take every possible mode e£ twisting the motion. He concluded by moving th*tttb. journment of the debate. Mr. WAKLEY thought the debate had better be ad• jaunted. After some short discussion, the trAi on w as with drawn. -27 Lord ELIOT obtained leave to 'ming in a Bill to con tinue so much of an Act of th second and third years of her present Majesty as en-41)-tes justices to grant war. rants for entering places ih 1 7,;hich spirits are sold with• out license, in Ireland, , Sir G. CLEak brought in a Bill to transfer the col. lection_of 't:rie duty o n li censes to l et h orses f or hi re i fs irelnA from the :_:ommissioners of Stamps to the Com • rtiissioners of Excise. - The House adjourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock. MEDICAL TESTIMONIAII—SIGHT AND HEARING. From T. J. Pettigrew, Surgeon, F.R.S. to Messrs. S. and B. Solomons , opticians, 39, Albemarle - street, Piccadilly,—Gentlonen, I have no hesitation in replying to your inquiry as to the results obtained - by the use of your Improved Spectacles ; being in the. constant habit of reading anal writing for many hours together by lamp light, it ia but justice to say that your newly invented Speetar,ie Lenses have afforded me the greatest comfort. Wten I employed the ordinary pebbles, I never failed to experience in the morning a great irritation in the eyes.. Since I have used your admirable glasses I autli , r from no inconvenience of the kind, and my vision is much im troved. I shall ever feel grateful to my good friend, Dr. Blundell for having dralyn my attention to the sub ject.—Believe me to be yours, ver: - / respectfully. T. J_ PE7r7GREW, 8, Saville-row. A',so, newly inventor Aeromatic Waistcoat-pocket r r..f.lescopes and Optina glasses of the same kind of - 1/..../ses.—Every kind of Te ! lest ope of larger size and ioeVeliing powers for shouting. sea purposes, and upon st:antl for and observa tions the powers are sv, great and the lenses so bright and brilliant that mirmite objects at an extraordinary dis tance is brought cc,mpletely under the eyes. Sportsmen tourists, and se a side visitors will indeed here have a. great treat. .1-seoustic instruments of every description. for deafnes.:,. Caution.—Messrs. S. & B. Solomons, opti-• cians am!. aurists, are not in any way connected with at person of the same name in their itumediate neighbour— hood, nor in any part of theyountry. To prevent • takes, be cautious, and observe—Only to be 141 at 39.: Albemarle -street, Piccadilly, Opposite the York Hotel. BOULOGN ki AND CALALS.—The number of persons who passed to and from France yin Boulogne, during the week ending last Thursday, was 2,695.; and vie: Calais, 342- The numbers in the corresponding week of last year were—. Boulogne, 1,356; and Calais, 702. :lock•