The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-17 00:00:00

f --. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 16. Lord DEN3;AX, in the absence of the Lord Chancellor, took his seat on the Woolsack at Five o'Clock. THE MARQUIS OF NORMANBY'S PROTEST. The Marquis of NORMANBY moved that leave be given to Peers to sign, on Monday next, the protest of the Marquis of Normanby against the decision of the House, negativing the resolutions proposed on the subject of Ireland.—Agreed to. _ _ COLONEL VERNER. The NOBLE MARQUIS then said, that he had to address one word of explanation to their Lordships on the snbject of a mistake which had been made in the usual vehicles of public information in giving a report of his sp'ech of last night. He had been represented as saying that the dismissal of Colonel Verner had not been his own act, but had been the act of the Lord Chancellor ( Lord Plunket). Now what he had said was, that the allegation against him, that he had dismissed Colonel Blacker and Colonel Verner, was incorrect. That the dismissal of Colonel Blacker had taken place during the Government of the Marquis of Wellesley, but that with regard to the dismissal of Colonel Verner, he (the Marquis of Normanby) took the whole responsibility upon himself. He had afterwards communicated on the sub • ject by letter with the Lord Chancellor (Lord Plunket), who entirely approved of the course which he had adopted. THE CHARLEMONT HOUSE PETITION. The Marquis of WESTNIEATH asked the Noble Marquis (Norntanby) when he intended to present the petition which he had stated to have been agreed on at a meeting at Charle wont House, respecting the imaginary grievances of Ireland. The Marquis of NORM A NBY had never stated that the pet i tion was in his custody. It was in the custody of his Noble Friend the Marquis of Clanricarde, who had left town that morning. He had no doubt, however, but that his Noble Friend would pre sent the petition immediately that he returned. The petition mould probably be presented during the course of next week, when the Noble Marquis could satisfy himself as to the respec tab►lity of the petitioners. During this discussion the LORD CHANCELLOR entered the House and took his seat on the Woolsack. POSTPONEMENT OF THE BISHOP OF EXETER'S MOTION. 'Rho Bishop of LONDON said that in consequence of the indisposition of his Right Rev. Friend (the Bishop of Exeter) he had been requested to state that that Right Rev. Prelate would put of the motion of which he had given notice for that evening to Friday next. POOR-LAW—MOTHER AND CHILD. JUDGMENT OF THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH, Lord DENNIAN rose to request their Lordships' attention to a subject which had occupied a great deal of space in the proceedings of the other House of Parliament—which had also been made the subject of discussion in the other House of Parliament. There had been standing upon the Orders of the other House forseveral days past this notice—" Mr. Fer rand to put the following question to the Secretary of State for the Home Departmen:: That as Lord Chief Justice Denman bas declared it to be the unanimous opinion of the judges of the Court of Queen's Bench, that there are some cases in which it is necessary to break in upon an Act of Parliament, and upon that which may have existed from ad time ;" and has also de clared that "it is the mother who is the proper party to have the custody of all her children under seven years of age, and that it is not for the benefit of the mother, but for the protection of the children ;" and t hat he thinks that "the judges ought to crush the first attempt to depart from that principle, and it, is of the highest impor tance that it should be considered the undoubted law of the land,"—whether the Government intend to insert a clause in the New Poor-law Bill, for the purpose of prohibiting the sepa ration of mother and chill, if they should become the inmates of a workhouse.' "—(A laugh.) It appeared from this that the Chief Justice had been represented as having declared, that it was of the highest importance that what the judges considered right should be adopted and adhered to, although it might be contrary to statute, and to the written laws of the land. This was a most extraordinary position to be announced, especially by the judges. The subject had been discussed ; and a Right Hon. Gentleman, in another place, had answered in in the name of the Court, and upon authority, that no portion of the statement was correct. He however found that there was still a strong disposition to assume the accuracy of the statement. There was an article on the subject which occu pied three columns of the 7 imes of this morning, and which asserted the oorrectness of that report. iquch evidence had also been produced on the subject, and it hal been stated that at the time the judgment had been delivered, one of the re porters had turned round to his neighbour and said, " Den man has blurted out a great truth."—( A laugh.) Now he (Lord Denman) was willing to receive the commendation of any in telligent person ; and if he had uttered a great truth he was glad of it. He had been told, for he had not read it, that this judgment had been the subject of a leading article shortly after the time when it had been delivered. Now, could it be supposed for a moment that the judges, of all people in the world, had said that it was sometimes necessary to break through an Act of Parliament ?—( Hear, hear.) The circumstance of one reporter turning round to another and making the observation to which he had alluded, reminded him of an anecdote which he had heard of an ancient orator, who did not hold the people in that respect which he (Lord Denman) did, and who, whenever he was applauded leg the people during the course of his addresies to them, asked whether he had uttered any very great nonsense to draw forth such commendation. He had the greatest deference for -public opinion, and he entertained the greatest respect fur those who were the organs of it ; but he must own that it was with the utmost astonishment he found it stated in a paper of great intelligence and talent, that it was said by any one in that establishment that when one of the judges uttered some very eminent nonsense, he (the reporter) turned round to another and said that " Denman had blurted out great truth."—(Laughter.) The case was this, a child had been removed from its mother by the justices, the mother hav ing given her consent to the removal. Now what the judges of the Queen's Bench held was that the mother was bound to protect ber child, and no conseat from her could authorise the justice in removing it from its natural protector. The oese quoted in the coarse of the argument was that of v. Bennet, in which it was decided that the mother could be passed to Ire and, although the child could not, having been born in Eng_ and, and obtained a vettlement. The facts of that ease were, that the statute - compelled the justices to remove the mother, but gave them no authority to remove the child ; which was a settled person. The case was ar gued before Lord Tenterden, and that great judge said, that " although there was great inconvenience in sepa rating the mother and child, yet that could not be avoided, if it was specially provided by an Act of Parliament. The sta tute was imperative. It ordered the justices to remove the mother, but gave no authority to remove the child." In the same spirit, he (Lord Denman) had said that the ancient rule of law might be set aside by an Act of Parliament, and the Court would be obliged to rule in support of the statute, against the expediency and authority of the common law ; but he said further, that in the case before him, no such necessity existed. There was no necessity to set aside the old law. He had communicated with the Se eretary of State, and with his brother judges. But one of them had told him, that the Secretary of State had applied to him on the subject, and that he had stated that the idea was a per feet chimera, and that what he (Lord Denman) had said only referred to that case which was before the Court, and in which there was no necessity imposed by statute fer the re moval of the child ; and for them to decide in favour of it ; was so abhorrent to the spirit of the ancient law, whatever might be said on the subject.—( Hear, hear.) He had re ferred to a learned and able friend of his, Mr. Adolphus, who reported the decisions in his Court ; and that gentleman wrote him an account of what was said; stating that he did not give all the words, but those which he gave were the principal words used, and in the order in which they had been used. And Mr. Adolphus added, that if the judges had said that there were cases in which it would be necessary to break in upon an Act of Parliament, he, Mr. Adolphus, would not have required a note to enable him to remember so remark able a dictum.—( Hear and laughter.) LORD DUNDONALD'S PATENTS. Lord BROUGHAM rose to present a petition, the presen tation of which he had announced for last night, but had post poned it to this evening in consequence of the pressure of busi ness before the House last night. It was the petition of his Noble and Gallant Friend, Lord Dundonald. Although that ingenious and able person laid his claim before their Lordships in respect to his own inventions only, yet with the most natural pride and veneration for the memory of his late father, he wished to rest his claim to their Lordships' consideration, net on his own merits alone, but on the great merits of the deeeased Earl, his father. Therefore, he (Lord Brougham) should not be performing his duty to this petition, if he did not, in the first place, state what those extraordinary merits were. The late Earl had not been an officer in the service of this country, excepting in the earlier part of his life, but he had devoted the greater part of his life to chemical and mechanical pursuits, and with singular success in those studies. He applied them in a greater degree than any other person not excepting the professors of these sciences, to various useful objects, amongst others to the highly useful application of coal tar in cover ing palings, gable ends, and other parts of barns and buildings --exposed to the injury of the weather. The introduction of this invention was opposed at first, as was the case with all new inventions, unfortunately for the inventors. But, after the prejudices against the first introduction of a novelty had worn away, and experience proved the value of the invention, the public reaped the benefit, and the public alone. It was an un fortunate law of our nature, and it worked great hardships upon learned and ingenious men, that the mass of the public treated with prejudice and distrust every new invention, how ever important and promising it might be. One powerful objection to the coal tar, at first, was that a mephitic gas, hydrogen, sulphurated and carbonated gases, acre evolved from it, bet after a time these gases were dissipated, and the fixed liquid becoming solid, was totally free from smell. When this was found out, and that the residuum became a most use ful protection to the timber and buildings to which it was ap plied, the *fable product was by degrees universally employed over the country fur the preservation of buildings in defiance of time and weather. But what was the case with Lord Dun donald? For the first fourteen years he had the protection of his patent. Parliament gave him a protection of fourteen years more, without producing any beneficial effect upon his fortunes. For, after these twenty-eight years, when he had no Act or patent in his favour the public reaped the entire benefit, and had continued to do so for fifty years. He would not occupy more time than the importance of the subject re qnired. He must state, however, one important benefit which the world had derived from this invention. In the course of the process for manufacturing coal-tar upon Lord Dundonald's factory, it was found carbonaecous'and sulphureous gases, evolved in the process, were applicable to the process of giving light, and these gases were accordingly burned in his works, so that the first use of gas for giving light was made by Lord Dundonald, in his factory, thirty or forty years before Wilson's patent. do much for the first of these inventions of Lord Dundonald. He would not dwell on the next two inventions, the productions of alkali and chrystals of soda, from common salt, by a most ingenious mode. The purity in which they were produced by that process ren dered also in of the g reatest value in the manufacture of g lass, an so in the manufacture of soap. These were all important artieles, as hi s Noble Friend near . him (Lord Monteagle) knew very well, tts he had them so long under his hands.— ( Laughter.) • The next invention sub related to the applica tion of 'slum and other o f agriculture, the great beneettoarfiel to the improvement acknowledged over the country , which invention was now derived no benefit from it. resultTilhaetthoug Lord Dundonald f . was that he died poor, having been long supported by t his hese friends . He He spent nve a nt d ions to per the whole of his fortune in bringing antt .self-denial fection, and he lived in the strictest econom to eke out his moderate weans for th y e those noble and useful objects to which h a i t s nin"t g f and learning, and unceasing industry were d e e n v e o r tea , With all this industry and perseverance, the result was the los; • of his ts hole fortune, and leaving no more behind him to his his family than his fame, and affording to his country the be nefit of his splendid scientific discoveries, from which he reaped not the slightest benefit. He felt confident, that in some of these countries where an absolute Government pre vailed, that a man of such high scientific attainment, and who proved himself to be such a benefactor to the world as the late Noble Earl had done, would have been amply remune rated. In this country, however, where free institutions were recognised, a different system prevailed, and it was left to the great body of the people to hold out inducements to scientific men, and then to reward them after their merits had been called forth. But still he thought they, as represent ing the people, ought to be ready to hold out that recompense . which they were now called to do by his Noble Friend. His - Noble Friend's exploits as a naval commander were 1 1 DE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENI NG, FEBRUARY 17, 1844. the Protestant Mayor of Wexford heading a procession to the mass-house. He (Mr. D'lsraeli) mentioned that to show that the position that was always assumed in that House, viz., that the present state of feeling in Ireland was the consequence of the Protestant connection, was one of error. It was not so, but it was the consequence of Puritanism—it was the consequence of that system which had been destroyed in this country, and which the people had been all banded together to support. With respect to the rebellion of 1641, which was a rebellion not against the Monarch but against the Parliament, it led to the establishment of the Government upon an essentially ca tional character—it led to the formation of the Convention of Kilkenny, which was in the habit of entering into treaties with the King of England. One of those trea ties, that for the settlement of the Government of Ireland, was executed with that Convention by Lord Glamorgan, afterwards the celebrated Marquis of Worcester. The secret articles of the treaty were, that the Roman Catholics should enjoy the same privileges which they had enjoyed at the beginning of the war, and both churches should be recognised as being perfectly equal. Those were the secret articles of the treaty of Glamorgan, which was ratified by Charles I. It was not, therefore, a necessary quality of Toryism that the Tory party should entertain feel ings of ill-will towards Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) The Tory party did not invent the penal cede. It was necessary to keep this in view. Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House should not consider that a feeling of antipathy to Ireland was an heir-loom in their political creed.—( Hear, hear.) 'the party opposite could be as little considered the favourers of free trade as the natural allies of the Irish people.—(A laugh. ) The Noble Lord (Palmerston) laughed, but he begged to remind him it was not the Tory party who introduced the penal code, nor what was called puritanical episcopacy ire() that country.—( Hear, hear.) From the moment that was in troduced the pure Protestant Church lost all influence over the island.—( Hear, hear.) The lion. Gentleman then re ferred to the vote he gave last session, and acknowledged that he was a party man, and considered it the duty of a Member of that House to become a party man ; but one of the conditions of becoming a party man was that they should have a leader, and a leader who was pre. pared to lead.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He had a sincere respect for the Right Hon. Baronet, which he believed, he would acknowledge, and he should be sorry to make any animadversions upon him; but ,when the Right Hon. Gentle man used that celebrated aphorism, that Ireland would he his chief difficulty, he was one who had no alarm that it would prove so. He did not believe that Ireland would be the chief difficulty of the Right Hon. Gentleman, because he believed that a Minister having great power, and possessing a large majority, would use them to settle the Irish question.— ( Cheers from the Opposition.) There was a silence, which ha rejoiced at, for two years with regard to that question, and he was glad they were not called on to give any opinion upon it ; hut when the question was faced upon their attention, and when the Right Hon. Gentleman took no part in leading pub lic opinion, he could not help thinking that the force of cir cumstances had dissolved the party tie on the question of Ire land.--( Hear, hear.) One of the greatest admissions ever made is+ his time was that Ireland was not a party question.— ( Hear, hear.) Ireland was in a state of turbulence and com motion, and his impression was, that it was the duty of the Minister to repress turbulence and to apply his mind to put an end to the causes which produced it.—( Hear, hear.) It was said that it was impossible to repress it sooner, that they should wait till a certain quantity of sedition was realised—(Loud laughter)—and if the Government had remained quiet for nineteen months, he should be silent. He now came to the question, and all he wanted to do was to plate his onn coniluct in an intelligible light ; in doing FO he felt he should be fighting the battle ef every Member of the House. He had been taunted with manifesting a new-born zeal for Ireland. The imputation was not a very heavy one ; zeal of any kind was such a rare quality, that in this age and country, the imputation of feeling a new-born zeal was not an overwhelming one. He wished the Right Hon. Baronet was equally regenerated.—( Laughter. ) He heard much of the evil of not giving Ireland identical institutions with England. Now he always thought that the great cause of the misery of that country was its having identical institutions with Ireland forced upon it. What good had Ireland derived from the juries, the benches of magistrates, like those of England, that had been forced upon it? The Governmeut in Ireland ought to be centralised, with a strong administration. He had never changed his principles on this or any other subject ; they were the natural principles of the democracy of this country.— ( Hear, hear, and cries of " On, oh.") They were not th e principles which would have supported the despotism of Cromwell, but they were the principles described in the writings of great, and practised by eminent, men, The Honourable Gentlemen opposite also had principles ; their principles were distinct and intelligible. He gave the Whigs credit for entertaining them—their principles had pro duced great men, and perhaps great deeds—they were th e principles of the landed aristocracy. Whether there was not some happy via media between Whiggism and Toryism, he did not know ; but he had no idea of the Tory party being pointed out as the tyrants and confiscators of Ireland—as the men who had invented the penal code ; when, on the contrary, it was the leader of the Tories who, when the Parliament obliged the people to take the oath of supremacy to the King, allowed any Irishman to be recusant. Could they have a better guarantee for justice to Ireland than that granted by Charles 1., and supported by the sanction and advice of Arch bishop Laud? If they could only forget two centuries of political conduct for which the Tory party was not responsible, they might settle the Irish question with kindness to the Irish people. Mr. Pitt—the Tory Minister— proposed measures which, had they been carried, would have saved them from the miserable position they now occupied. The Catholic Church question would have been settled long ere this; and he believed it would still be settled at a very early period on principles analagous to those conceived by the great statesmen of 1636. He believed that no one specific measure would do any good for Ireland; they must reconstruct the social system of that country; they must begin by organis ing a complete and strong executive. If the Noble Lord came forward with such a comprehensive plan he would sup port him at any sacrifice, though he might have to place his seat again at the disposal of his constituent'. He remembered that he represented the oldest Tory consti tuency in the kingdom, and that he inherited good Tory prin ciples, and last year, when he supported the tariff of the Right Hon. Baronet, he went down and explained English history to his constituency—(Great laughter)—and lie could assure the House they took the most enlightened views of the subject. In 1832, when the Right Hon. Baronet's party was smashed—when it was said that he could never revive—that he was a doomed man—nothing could have been more difficult than to re-censtruct his party. He had not only to do that, but to remove the prejudices of .many eminent persons; and there he sat, with the Right Hon. Secretaries of State at his side—who were among those whose prejudices he had to re move—(Loud cheers from the Opposition, and laughter)—and he succeeded in removing them.—(Laughter.) They were colleagues, of whom he might be proud ; and it was an enceu raging example. He thought it was not more difficult to settle Ireland than to re-construct the Tory party after a revolution. It was not more difficult to remove the prejudices of those who had thought but little on the question, than to remove the pre judices of those who had thought a great deal.—( Hear, hear. ) He must protest against the new system of government, which seemed to be the substitution of the mere fulfilment of the duties of office for true administration. What were all these Reform Associations—Anti-Corn-law Leagues —Repeal Asso ciations? They were merely the consequence of the people taking the Government The the cou n t ry i nto t h e i r own hands.—( Hear, hear.) The public• mind, among a free people—no one in authority took the lead of them—they coalesced, and very often carried their crude opinions into effect. If the Government would not lead the people, the people would drive the Government. _.(Cheers.) He could not vote for the motion of the Noble Lord, because he did not see that he promised more than her Majesty's Ministers. He wished to hear some man say that the Irish question should be settled. great'ersoceeaty m . o andng the see He had been told that this was a physical qu es ti on — an d aga i n that it was a spiritual question. There was great di s t ress among the people, great distress among the middle c l asses , an d some times there w Papists. The only way in which you can i n f orm yourse l ves upon these matters , and come to a wise opinion up on th em , i s u to po lo nh look around und youas a upon of the foreign featuresinterfen principles Government is es t a bli s h ed. And having done this—having cast your eyes over other coun t r i es an d formed an honest opinion upon them—th en b r i ng t o talk of society, Ireland the same unimpassioned spirit as you have done to the well-being of another country.—(Cheers. ) Then see the population of Ireland, and compare it it with what itself receives from the soil, and you shall find that country more thickly peopled in proportion than is China at the present day. Such is the quantity of food which this country affords to its own population, and that too of a quality the lowest that can be conceived.—(Cheers.) So that the Irish population has not what every other population of the globe—not excepting even the Poles have, he meant a resort this dense population , thus left to mi sery an d want, t h ere i s a iCnhuthrcehewasheicohf famine .— (Hear,doesnotblonglohtehaer.)And in the midst of people, and a territorial aristocracy, the major part of which is resident in Paris—and to remedy all these the weakest Executive in the world.- -(Hear, hear.) What would they say of any other country in which there were such things as these'?—( Cheers.) They might say that did such things as these exist in another country there could only b e one remedy, and that must be found in revolution. But th e y co uld not indulge in revolution in Ireland, and why ? Because of their connection with a more powerful neighbour. England then, by its connection, was put in this odious position that an English Ministry has to do all peaceably and quietly for that country, which in any other country could only be hoped for by a revolution. It was quite evident that they must have an Executive in Ireland, which bore an imediate relation to the aristocracy. But that Execu tive could not improve Ireland by mere Acts of Parliament. The moment they had an equality in the two Churches, then they might hope for order in Ireland, and when order came, famine would gradually disappear, and prosperity gradually come. But this would not be rapid. What mattered that ? Fifty years was nothing in the history of a country. The Right Hon. Baronet, Sir Robert Peel, might do much to lay the foundation of this, and he hoped would do so. But he did not think the effect would be created by the Hon. Member for Belfast (Mr. E. Tennant), or, as he supposed on a former occasion, by the King of France. He looked for this to a power much more influential. He looked to that power which was not only more intelligent, but more benignant.—( Cries of "Young England.") No, he did not mean young England ; (Laughter )—but he meant that power which stated that any question that could not bear discussion was doomed.—( Hear. ) Mr. WARD th en rose t o a ddree the House. Some parts of of the Honou ra bl e G en tl eman ' s s peech he would not attempt to discuss.—(Hear, h ea r.) He would not attempt to touch that which was unintelligible.—(Hear.) He could not, for the life of him, see how the Hon. Member could expect the settlement of this Irish question, after the s p eeches that ha d been made on th e subject, without some conciliation.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had talked much of the course that had been pursued in Ireland. He had attempted to de scribelet that rebellion to which he referred related only to three p there ; why. he ought to have known that provinces.—(Hear,) Hear much of its history, and had talke d of re bellion He was thrown back necessarily, inevitably thrown back, on the motion of his Noble Friend. Nothing would be done, for from the moment the Right Hon. Gentleman obtained the support of his agricultural friends, however good the motion might be, however strong the arguments, however great the grievance, there was a foregone conclusion , a result perfectly certain, as far as that House was concerned. A formal com pact had been signed, sealed, and delivered , b y w h i ch they (the Opposition) had been delivered over to the Government for two or three years. But Hon. Members must not shrink from avowing their opinions because they were unpopular. There was another and a higher tribunal—public opinion, and it was the duty of the representatives of the people to keep these things continually before the eyes of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) It was a very remarkable fact in the present debate that if words were things (as Lord Byron said), and if they could credit the one-half of what Hon. Members on the other side of the House said, there was hardly any difference between Hon. Members on both sides of the Douse. An Hon. Mem ber who spoke early in the debate, and the Hon. Member for the University of Dublin, fully concurred with the Hon. Member for Waterford, on the necessity of restoring tranquillity to Ireland, and pursuing a mild and conciliatory course of policy towards Ireland. The Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department ex pressed his disapprobation of holding Ireland by mi litary occupation, and said he should prefer governing the people through their affections. But be (Mr. Ward) had much rather deal with parties than phrases ; and when he looked to th e p resent state of things in that country, and when he remembered the declarations of the Hight Hon. Baronet, he was induced to believe that Ireland was destined, for a pe riod undefined, as long as the present party continued in power, to be governed by the new law of conspiracy, and an army of occupation. —( Hear, hear.) There were 21,000 men now in Ireland, instead 14,000, as there were a few years ago. The present Government had proclaimed to all Europe that they could not trust Ireland. They had their armies, their steam-boats, and fleets, but not for the purposes of commerce. Ireland was in a most critical condition, even by the admission of the Right Honourable Baronet at the head of the Govern ment. After six months of a state of discontent, almost bor dering upon revolution, the Government proposed no remedy. The lion. Member then adverted to the state trials, and observed that those who were tried could not have been aware that the law was as defined by the Attorney-General and the Chief Justice. Indeed if the law was as laid down by the Chief Justice, there was not a single man on either side of the House, who had taken a prominent part in public affairs for the last ten years, that had not brought himself within the meshes of this conspiracy law. The speeches made during the Irish agitation, and the meetings assembled were not more violent or multitudinous than those which preceded the Reform Bill, in which agitation the Right lion. Gentleman the Se cretary of State fur the Home Department was a prominent actor.—( Hear.) Above all, the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies ought not to forget the line pursued by his poli tical friends on that occasion. Never, in the annals of this country were s'ronger words used by apublic man than by the Noble Lord on that occasion, when, aided by three hundred Members, he said distinctly, and publicly-sit was no torious at the time—that the King might choose what Ministers he pleased ; Lord Grey's Government had done their duty in bringing forward a great national mea sure, and the Duke of Wellington and his colleagues might take place and infamy.—( Hear.) Now when they talked of conspiracy, and held up their hands in horror at the atrocity committed at those meetings in Ireland, they ought not to forget what they had said themselves.—( Cheers.) Let them not say that they were voting for what they believed a great national good, but that if others did so they were conspirators. The Right lion. Baronet should not have forgotten his receiv ing the deputations from Birmingham—above all, when his Noble Friend passed a just eulogium on the conduct of Mr. O'Connell in 1836, 1838, and 1842, on one of which occasions, Mr. O'Connell risked his popularity, and almost his life, by standing up against the combination of tradesmen. Had Mr. O'Connell held up his finger at the time of the Chartist movement, it would have been joined by the whole Irish people. Nobody would deny that that was a great na tional service, and he regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet had put so ungenerous a construction upon it as to say that it was, in point of fact, only a proef how much more deeply laid that conspiracy was. The Right lien. Baronet was the last man that ought to have used such language. Were he to look back to the period of 1831, when he came into office on the shoulders of Mr. Attwood, he should make the admission that Iris conduct, as a Member of Parliament, went to the verge of legality. He was cautious, no doubt—he was always a sort of Secretary of State in embryo on those occasions, and he was willing to profit by the incaution of others—such as that of the Nob! it e r e fl-0 SN•rotary for the Celenies. One was carried into the Admiralty, an d the other was made Secretary for Irelan 1. As was said by the Right Hon. Gen tleman. the Member for Waterford, there was no direct ap plication of physical f,ree, as in a more recent instance, but a sort of mewl force, based on a physical organisation. What must influenced the decision of the !Imre of Lords with regard to the Reform Bill was—deny it as they might—the Birmingham meeting of 1831. Now he had the curiosity to look beck to the records of that period. They had heard a great deal of Alullaglimast, and Tara, and other multitudinous meetings in Ireland, but he believed they forgot what passed amongst themselves in England only ten years ago. When he looked to the records of this period, he was inclined to think that it was a mere milk and water affair in Ireland. There was an earnestness, and stubbornness, and high resolve charac teristic of the English meetings, which carried the Reform Bill. A great meeting was held in Birmingham on the 4th of October, 1831. It was attended by an enormous multitude of people from the Midland Counties. Mr. Attwood presided at it, and the first words he used were not very unlike these used by Mr. O'Connell. He said, "I am about to ask you to cry out, God bless the King,' I desire you all to take off you; hats, and louts to heaven, where the just God is, who rules both Heaven and earth, and to c-y out, i God save the King.". There was no disloyalty in that. The Times, in commenting upon it, said, " The spectacle which here presented itself was beautifully and magnificently sublime." One might think it was the Nation newspaper, the editor of which was involved in the late prosecution. " Every head was uncovered, every face was turned to Heaven, and one hundred thousand voices responded to the cry of God save the King.' " That was a burst of loyalty ; but he was afraid it did not last very long; for he found that there was a speech made by Mr. Haynes, who said, that "he agreed that the power of the people was greatest, not when it struck, but when it was sus pended, and that it was best to show force, without using it, as the Roman said— " Ostendite helium, pacem habebetis." Ile wont on to say that 150,000 of his countrymen had met to petition the Lords to pass the Bill. A question had been asked, Would they pass the Bill ? He would answer it by asking another—Dare they refuse to pass the Bill? He then referred to the army, and said, that the army could not fight, if the people refused to pay the taxes—that those who had reaped immortal honours in foreign countries would not murder their wives, relations, and friends, in order that 400 might tyrannise over 16,000,000. This was language (said the Hon. Gentle man) not very dissimilar to that used in Ireland, and according to the definition now given of the conspiracy, those who joined in the English proceedings were equally guilty of conspiracy, and he was himself as guilty as any body ; but he did not profit so directly by it. The Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baro net were as guilty of conspiracy as any of the band which the Right Hon. Gentleman boasted of having caught in his net. lie should like them to be tried by a jury—not by an illiterate Dublin jury—not by anilliterate Dublin jury, who mixed in public-houses with their pot-house associates—but tried even by.a jury of their own colleagues. He would give them the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Lincoln, as their foreman, or the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary at War, who rnce declared, as the guns were firing, when the King was coming to open Parliament that the next time they were fired, they would be shotted.—( Hear, hear.) As to the law as it now stood, it was difficult to understand it. —( Hear, hear.) It threw a halo round an illegal act for an illegal object. The Government seemed to have sacrificed all those principles which they had hitherto asserted were right in the abstract.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if they adopted such courses, was it at all surprising if they sacrificed the principles of liberty ?—( Hear, hear.) He thought the greatest injustice had been shown in the late trials in Ireland, and he felt no doubt, that if the Attorney-General of England could only forget those principles of justice, of honour, of mercy and in tegrity, which he had ever held, that the time was not far dis tant when they would not only see Mr. O'Connell, but Mr. Cobden, the inmate of a gaol —( Hear, hear.) He believed that in no place but Ireland would they find an Attorney-General who would frame an indictment against a whole people.—( Hear, hear.) He would warn Gentlemen on the other side of the House of the course that they were pursuing ; they were leading the people to inquire where was the real conspiracy—was it among the people of Ireland ? was it among the people of England ? or was it in that House ? Let them answer that question ? Were they not leading the people to believe that the Queen was favourable to the support of an oligarchy ? (Hear, hear. ) Every concession that had been made to the Catholicsshad been neutralised by the manner in which the law had been ad ministered. Years back no Catholics had been admitted into any place of trust in Ireland. Was it to be wondered at that they should have raised a cry against the proceedings of that House? They wanted ;the same justice for them that was adopted towards England, and they were entitled to it.— ( Hear, hear.) The Church question in Ireland was what emancipation had been. The Act of Union was in dispute. He thought some of the articl s of the union and the Church were the bane and the curse of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon Baronet, with all the responsibility of the Govern ment on his shoulders, had closed his eyes to his own predic tions, when they were, in fact, realised.--( Hear, hear.) The fifth article of the Act of Union was, in his opinion, the real bar to its continuance.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that the Catholic feeling on this point ought not to be misunderstood.— ( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member then proceeded to read several extracts from a work, entitled " The Correspondence of a Junior to his Senior," showing the degraded manner in which the Roman Catholics in former times were treated, many parts of which raised considerable laughter in the House. As to the Church question, he had spoken so fully upon it last session, that lie did not now feel himself justified in trespassing on the attention of the House. He thought he had some reason to congratulate himself on the progress of the opinions announced by him regarding the Irish Church. The senti ments expressed by the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, and the Noble Lord th e M em b er f or th e t own o f Sunderland, were of a liberal nature, and he must say they were very promising disciples.—(Laughter.) Perhaps he could not, without some impertinence, call the Noble Lord ( Howick) his disciple, as that Noble Lord had always pro fesssed sentiments of a very liberal character. There were several remedies proposed—the first was the appropriation of the income of the Protestant to the Catholic Church. The other was to abolish all, an d t h at was w h at he preferred. It was again suggested that the voluntary system should be established in Ireland—always, of course, with a due regard to vested interests. Great obloquy had been cast upon him in the course of last session. He had al luded to the immense fortunes left by certain Protestant digni taries. He was not then aware that a return had been laid on the table of the House, which showed that the p ro b a t e o f a ll the Irish Bishops exceeded the enormous sum of 1,875,000/. The state of the Protestant Church in Ireland really required modification ; the semi-religious, semi-political condition of the Protestant clergy was most offensive to the public, and they had just reason to complain of it. They frequently at tended very large meetings, and took a very prominent part in them—sometimes using most violent language—and yet they were not prosecuted. There was the Reverend Holt Waring, for instance, who attended very large meetings and used very violent language, and yet he was not prosecuted. The Right. Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin seemed to be quite insensible to the in terest of the great body of the people when talking of his own. That Right lion. Gentleman talked of doinestie peace being founded upon religious truth. Religious truth ! Who was to be the exponent of that truth ? He supposed the Right Hon. Gentleman. He said the Church question should not lie agitated—that it was indecent to agitate that question.—( A laugh.) But where was this truth—where was its source? Why more than half the Christian world disagreed with him in his religious belief.—( Hear.) Compared with the great body of Christians, Episcopacy was a mere fraction. He (Mr. Ward) regarded such a declaration as that, not only as insulting, but as almost impious. He feared that the prin ciples of the Right Hon. Gentleman once acted on, they would speedily lead to the dismemberment of the empire. There was no men more anxious to preserve the union than he was, but he considered it utterly impossible to maintain it, if the de clarations of the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, were to be acted upon. They should adopt a conciliatory and healing policy. The Hon. Gentleman th en quote d t h e opinions of 'Mr. Maddison, who had been President of the United States of America. These opinions were delivered at a time when it was apprehended that the union of the States was about to be dissolved, and that each was to have a separate government. What took place in America then ? Did he urge upon those States which were induced to hold together, the propriety of governing those States which were inclined to separate by a military force, and so forcibly retaining them ? No ; a convention met at Philadelphia, and at that convention Mr. Maddison urged in the strongest manner the policy of giving equal rights and equal privileges to all the inhabitants of the States—a perfect equality of civil and religious rights. He told them they ought to live together as the members of one family, and as fellow-citizens of a great and flourishing republic, for which their ancestors had spilled their dearest blood. So said he (Mr. Ward), let the Irish people have an equality of civil and religious rights, and be in all respects pla ce d upon a footing. of equality with the people of England. The people of Ireland were at present discontented ; he did not say but military force might suppress the untoward signs of that discontent. For some time they might continue to govern Ireland in this manner, but if the political horizon should become clouded—if foreign countries should threaten war, encouraged, perhaps, to do so by the d scontent of Ireland-- then, instead of finding the Irish people, their steady, warm, and efficient supporters, they would find them dangerous and determined enemies. A great responsibility was attached to the present Government. They should recollect the condi tion of Ireland from the union to the period at which Catholic emancipation was granted. If in 1800 Catholic Emancipa tion had been granted, thirty years of agitation and turmoil would have been prevented. Ihe Right Hon. Baronet should take advantage of the loyalty which at present prevailed in Ireland—a heavy responsibility rested upon him—he should make concession—he should concede before concession would be useless, and so secure the safety, tranquillity, and integrity of the empire. Colonel CONOLLY denied that the members of the late Government possessed the confidence of the people of Ireland. This motion had been got up by the Whigs —the friends of the Irish conspirators to help them out of their present calamitous position.---.( Great cheering. ) He should like to know what lion. Gentlemen opposite meant by a difference of law and of right ? The aristocracy of Ireland drew a distinction between the admitted wrongs of that country and those fictitious ones which formed the stock in trade of the agitators. Why, what was the alleged great evil of that country, according to their account? Why, they said that all the evils arose from the Established Church, and the grand remedy which they suggested was its abolition entirely. But had the Established Church no claims to justice, were the Protestants of Ireland to be swept away from off the face of the country ? which would be the case if the proposition of the Noble Lord opposite were acted upon. He was cure that the great body of the Irish people were toe sensible of the advae t ages which they derived from the Church ever to consent to such a proposition. The body of the Protestants suffered the most galling injuries and perse cutions for the List 20 years ; and, according to the views of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, and the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, the Protestants and Presbyterians of that country were to be treated with greater violence than they were during the period of the thirty years' war on the Continent, when every outrage was perpetrated against them. —( Loud laughter.) When the Noble Lord talked a good deal of possessing the confidence of tlr, people of Ireland, he (C o l one l C ono ll y ) was aston i s h e d at the Noble Lord's effrontery.---' Renewed laughter.) He had also talked of the wrongs of Ireland; but why, if they existed, did he do nothing to redress them during his long administration ? The whole of his term of office was one of continued insecurity and danger to the lives and properties of the Protestants of Ire land.—( Ironical cheers.) They had very few of the educated classes of Ireland along with them, although they might have the agitators. Although he (Colonel Conully) would not at tempt to vindicate all the acts of the landlords of Ireland. yet he thought they had been most unfairly treated by the Noble Lord's Government, and he could not expect or flatter himself with the idea that he had had the approbation of the people of Ireland along with him. lie (Col. Conolly) was ready to give him credit for bringing in the Grand Jury Bill, and lie also thought that a system of poor-laws would, if pro perly framed, be most beneficial to the poor of that country; but still he was sure that the lives and property of the higher classes were endangered by that insatiable cupidity which had been excited by the course fostered by the late Government. The Noble Lord, the Member for Sunderland, had asked were they to govern Ireland by force ? He (Col. Conolly)' would answer him, and say they should govern her by the due ad ministration of the lass of the country in the repression of tie - - indent agitation. The Nehle Lord, the Member for London, !eel net nilucied to many ei lee measures which concerned Ire land, but he (Col. Conolly) would do so for him, and tell him that they were almost held up Le universal exist -Mien (Loud laughter)—and that he (lid not at all enjoy that sole popularity which he imagined to the exclusion of all other parties. During his administration he was completely under the dictation of that agitation which the present Government hail the manliness and courage to repress —(lronical cheers and laughter.) The Noble Lord's name was connected with the Coercion Bill, which was not very popular with the Irish people ; it was true he (Colonel Conolly) voted for the Bill as well as the Noble Lord. —( Loud laughter.) Same Honourable Gentlemen and Noble Lords connected with the late Govern ment might have lost their 2,0001. or 3,000/., whilst others took care to instal therroeves in offices which entitled them to the receipt of salaries during their lives. Many of them took d—d good care of that.—( When the Hon. and Gallant Gentle man used the above rather expressive adjective, a peal of laughter rang through the House, and a considerable time elapsed before he could pr7sced in his address, owing to the renewed shouts of laughter with which he was met.) He thought much of the unpopularity of the late Government arose from the number of hungry expectants whom they shook off. The Noble Lord had raked up a bundle of old stories, which were likely to increase that animosity between the two parties tin y se loudly pretended to deprecate. Mr. WARD rose to explain. He had never said, that there were Catholics who disliked the Act of Settlement. He hod said nothing of the kind. What he had said was, that at the time it was passed, after the battle of the Boyne, when the two religious parties were pithed as it were against each other, the Act of Settlement was felt as a grievance. But he believed at present the loyalty of the Catholics of Ireland was un doubted. Colonel CONOLLY had misunderstood the Hen. Gentle man and he was sorry for it. Air. Sergeant MURPHY, after briefly stating that in his opinion, the popularity of the Noble Lord near him (Lord John Russell) would be unaffected by the attack of the Hon. and Gallant Member opposite said, he much regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Attorney-General for Ireland, was absent from his place in Parliament ; because on a former occasion, he (llr. Sergeant Murphy) had felt it to be his duty to, animadvert on the conduct of that Right Hon. Gentleman during the late State proseeu floes in Ireland. He regretted the more that he was absent, inasmuch as he (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) intended again to advert to that Right Hon. Gentleman's conduct. With re. gard to the late trials in Ireland, he thought no one could say that they had been conceived in a spirit of impartiality, or that they had been characterised by that tone and temper which the great importance of the occasion demanded.— (Cheers.) There was a degree of captiousness in the conduct of the Attorney-General which no one could fail to perceive. Every morning of the trials he was certain to exhibit this cap tiousness. If any one of the traversers happened to be absent, no matter from what cause, the Attorney-General would stop the proceedings of the Court in order to compel the attendance of those traversers. He (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) would now turn to the trial itself. He would ask, why had there been such delay in those prosecutions, if such prosecutions were necessary ? If those meetings, out of which the prosecution had arisen, were endangering the peace of the country, then, upon their own showing, the Government were answerable for having risked the peace of Ireland by the delay they had exhibited in instituting the prosecutions. On the 9th of May in the last year, in answer to a question from a Noble Lord, the Right Hon. Baronet expressed his determination of maintaining the union. The Lord Chancellor, in the House of Lords, on the same day, declared it as his belief, that the meetings then being held in Ireland were illegal, and rendered persons at tending them liable to an indictment. Having this high opinion as a foundation to go upon, he (Mr. Murphy) asked why such delay had taken place in the institution of the prosecutions? Was it that those who had embarked in those proceedings should be lured into a further violation of the law, or was it the intention of the Right Hon. Baronet to entrap one individual whom he thought his chiefest difficulty with respect to his Government in Ireland? The Right lion. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department, the other night, said that they on the Opposition side of the House need not hug themselves with the notion that the pre sent Government coming into power had been the cause of the multitudinous meetings being held. He said that such meet ings had been held in 1840 and 1841 on the same subject.. If similar meetings had been held before, he (Mr. Sergeant Mur phy) would ask what difference took place in their character between May and October in 1843 ? The Lord Chief Justice on the bench had declared that the moment Mr. O'OConnell made the declaration that the Queen in Council with one in dividual had a right to summon the Parliament in Dublin, he was guilty of an indictable offence. Then, why had the Go vernment refrained from instituting the prosecution? Was it that seven or eight individuals might be brought together in order that that might be tortured into a conspiracy ? If so, that con spiracy had lasted for upwards of eight months; and he (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) would ask whether, during that time, any person in Ireland had felt the least apprehension. But the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) said the indict ment was riot preferred until after a proclamation had issued from the Corn Exchange, which contained words savouring of military forms. Why those words, it afterwards appeared, had been introduced by a person of the name of Morgan. They were afterwards disclaimed by the Repeal Association—they were disclaimed immediately that they were brought under the notice of that Association. He now came to the circumstances connected with the trial itself. He was not going to bring up the question again of excluding Roman Catholics from the jury list, but this he would say, that it was evident, from what had lately taken place, that if any Roman Catholics should be indicted for anything which savoured of a political offence, he must be tried before a ju r y o f Pro testants. He asked what would be the moral effect of the conviction lately obtained by the Government ? Would it have the same moral effect as a verdict obtained from a jury differently constituted? Did the Government recollect what had been said by one of the leading journals in Dublin, and the Government organ, upon the constitution of the jury ? That journal, when the jury was formed, said We have a true flock, but there is one black sheep amongst them, but that one black sheep will not mar the others." Before the trial took place, Mr. Thompson, one of the jurors, was heard to say, that "at all hazards, repeal must be put down." Could there, he (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) asked, be a fair trial, with such a man as this on the jury ? The Right H on. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, inquired if it was likely that they would try a question of tithes, or trespass, before persons continually in the habit of committing similar offences ! He (Mr. M ur phy) sa id th at was not a parallel case. Mr. O'Connell had always been the advocate of the Catholics. The parties before whom he was tried hated him. What, then, could be the moral effect of such a trial on the people of Ireland? If the Right Honourable Baronet compared the case to that of a reputed poacher tried before a bench of game-preserving justices, the comparison would better apply.---(Cheers and laughter.) The whole inquiry in Dublin was, on the day that the panel was struck, had they got a good Protestant jury? It was so, and the result was what might be expected, when the man was to be immolated whom they had, for forty ' years, regarded as their most hated political opponent.— ( Hear, hear.) What then would be the effect when the six million, and a half, or more, of Roman Catholics saw the exul tation of all classes of Protestants in the conviction of their champion and leader ?—( Hear, hear.) But what would the people of this country say to the management and result of the trial ? They would say that the trial was unfair illegal, and unconstitutional, in every part of it.—( Cheers.) Let them look at the character of the meetings themselves. It had been said by gentlemen opposite that they were composed of untutored savages. The magistrates and the aristocracy had laughed at them, and had asserted that no arguments addressed to them could have had any effect, on account of the stupidity of the mere brutes who constituted them. What then did the Government do? Did they leave the arguments to be ad dressed to these brute multitudes ? No ; they brought the whole question to be argued in a Court of Justice. It was no longer an ignorant and untutored rabble that was addressed, but the discussion was transferred to the solemn arena of the Court of Justice, where it was carried on with the utmost force of talent and eloquence by men of transcendent ability and learning, who had elicited in this country the. greatest admira tion for their powers. One of those gentlemen, who had de. Oared in that House that he adhered to the union, acknow ledged, in his address to the Court, that, after the arguments which he had heard, he found greater difficulty in finding grounds on which he could defend the Act of Union.—( Cheers.) Was that statement calculated to allay the effect which the Government had produced by concentrating the agitation in that focus ?—( Hear, hear.) He might now be allowed to al lude to other circumstances—to the mode in which the trial was conducted, and to come at last to the summing up of the Chief Justice.—( Cheers.) He (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) lived in this country, and was a practitioner in its Courts ; and he believed that nothing lifted England higher in the scale of its own estimation, and the respect of other nations, than the firm ness with which the laws were administered.—(Hear, hear.) With these feelings, when he read the charge of the Chief Jus tice, he thought that, great as was the talent of the Solicitor- General, he had no hesitation in saying that the charge of the Chief Justice was, of the two, the better speech for the Crown.—(Cheers.) The Solicitor-General was obliged to contrast the arguments of the opposite side with those which he had to offer on his own part; but the Chief Justice confined himself to one side.—(Hear, hear.) He sneered at the pet meeting of the Rev. Mr. Tierr.ey, and he sneered at the possibility of the Queen and Daniel O'Connell going arm in arm to open a Parliament on College Green.— (Cheers, and laughter.) He sneered, also, at the comparison that had been instituted between the Arbitration Courts of Mr. O'Connell and those of the Quakers ; but he never re ferred to one fact or argument relied on by the trayersers. The undignified conduct of the Chief Justice did, he admitted, much to obtain the verdict ; but it did also more to take away all moral effect from that result. —( Cheers. ) Nor was he FM.. (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) singular in that aina i o n. Their own press said that they wi..hed the charge of he Chief Justice b be ad been less in the spirit eff a partisan.—(Chews.) Hal it en on the simplest and humblest occasion, it wt.,,ki have been reprehensible, reprehensible, but it was much more so , when ibe man ych had fur forty years been looked up to by the treat majority, of the people with lore and admiration, was upt.n trial for 1 1 , 1 _ his acts, from the rebellion of 1798 to that period, When, bu for his interpezirion, a terrible outbreak would have taken place.—( Cheers. ) Why did the Chief Justice, then , never bring before the jury the tact:that Mr. O'ConnelPaad steel between life and dear ..1 on that occasion ?—(Chee s. ) Wiate" a 5l likely that any moral et.'iNat could be produced by such str beginning with the capt,c'tsness of the Attorney -Gee then the formation of the jury; P•ith its attendant accid en and ending with the charge of Chief Justice ?—(Che ett i? Would it put down the repeal agita 'On ? — ("PeciallY when t at: man in whom his countrymen confid l,l ,„ most was placed un the ban of the law, under circumstance.% in which the mane person in this land would not be arraigne,i ? The Right flut i ; 'Baronet (Sir James Graham) had said, ttOt he wrote a let" to the Lord Lieutenant., directing him, in ec.lesiastieal patron' age, to look only to the fitness of the appoint;.lent. But Ir st i had the admitted fact, that all the episcopal api %ointments , been bestowed upon persons who were opposed to , national education.—(Hear.) Now he would ask h n y one • w ho regarded cause and effect,whether the tardy and small ct which were at length promised would have been though were not for this agitat inn, so long as Ireland was under the • ..°"'"? nation of a Tory Ministry. And after all, what were the bcalos4 A Commission had been appointed to inquire into a great cal ito of discontent. Why should it not before this have made is report?—(Tory laughter.) Gentlemen might laugh, b, ut `he system!. the disease was great, the remedy ought to be speedy. — ( H hear. ) But while the Commission was still deliberating,di_.. agrarian discontent was increasing, and the causes oTf be the content were in active operation.—( Hear, hear.) ~P ro a wised grant for national education would he of little use Government could not enforce the manner of its a The Protestant clergy to a man refused to allow their ilcub s b ! attend the schools, and in this way they frustrated the grea t° , ject of bringing up the children of different persuasions teethe; so that their sectarian prejudices should a 'quire no force' .4 , early life.—( Hear, hear.) He wished now to draw a paraor between the state of things in this country and in Irelann" What had been the conduct of the Attorney-General in En u g: land? He was not a man to slumber in his charge cf t ."„ public peace. He had put down by his conduct the at agitation, and the agrarian disturbances in Wales. But tie r s had he done with the grand conspiracy of the League?—( Ch eer ,. from both sides of the House.) But the League had sups„ ceded the theatres.—( Laughter.) Jt had agitated the Nunn! from end to end. It had collected 100,0001., and held mull' tudinous meetings. Nay it had even denounced the Geverl; went, and threatened to agitate until the Government shell pplicattoto Le compelled to concede its demands. The League presete, every ingredient of renspiracy that had been shown in Irelaen..:. lit that country a newspaper proprietor enters into the via; of the Repeal Association as a eoratnereiai speculation ; bu t League did not allow the connection of tize newspaper 'IA,. their conspiracy to be a matter of construction, f o r they estasa lished a new: -pper themselves, and they avowed that they b concocted their conspira,y in a small room in Manch ester. ; (Cheers.) But, in Ireland, the proof of the conspiracy w taken from the peaceful and orderly character of the meet e l e t and the coincidence of expression on the part of th s speakers. Now if the Attorney-General wanted to knovilii were the means of operation adopted by the League, be have sent to Leamington for a parson, who said that assassins tion won one of their means. —( Hear, hear.) a gb.) Mr. FE RR A NWhy, the said o thsel —( A- Mr. Sergeant M D— URPHY y said s the em Hon.ve s. for M e mber Knaresborou g gh was a person to whose assertions he must Or s in that House.—(Cheers.) But there was another ingredi; in the Irish conspiracy—there was a song.—( Laught Celebrated Right Hon. Gentleman had, no doubt, read the distich— " Oh God, that bread should be so cleats And flesh and blood so cheap." Not only did Punch publish these lines--(Laughter). _ at s make the conspiracy more clear, Mr. Cobden quoted tneT, the League.—(Great meetin, therefore Punch was a conspirator with ad , laughter.) They (the Government) arb c - 0 in Ireland from the coincidence of o i sinion. t his w ee they had a perfect coincidence, and why 0;14 they na „f o tber cote the editor of Punch ?—(Laughter.) Thei:e w as he ",tbef great conspirator for them !—( Laughter.) Bu. w font had done so they must. do more than was done id ~, entb er they must have a jury of agriculturists, with the Hon• e sot for Knaresbough at their head—(Laughter)—and having their jury, they must get an Attorney-General to eb a s , ~e) the jury first, and then challenge the counsel.—(Laug a : But they would not even then be sure of their verdi ei. had been said that one of the best things for the two colialif would be an interchange of judges—(Laughter)—and O r ion tie for the conviction of the League nothing could be surer t 130, bring over the Chief Justice of Ireland.—(Cheers.) „ s r perhaps, the Attorney-General would say that the den merit of repeal was for ever, and that of the Corn-law I "! si i Vs only for once.—( Hear, hear.) He looked at those procecuaol only as a lawyer—as an Irishman residing in this counfsol enjoying its blessings—blessings which he wished to be eaLssnsil to his native country; and seeing the man who had done 25 110 rG in the cause of liberty as any man about to be consigne e s , 1 1/ dungeon, he must say that that great man would have , 05 r ' events his reward. Posterity would award to him that bl3ot which his merits had secured to him in his own time. for that man had another consolation. Five-sixths of his co o n t ee men, and all Europe, looked with admiration upon his. _ t io , and would inscribe upon his pedestal the expression of tni_itatbl miration. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman 000 'd Est amidst much cheering, with a quotation of which one woe not heard in the gallery, as he was now co m pl e tely 103 1010 Mr. B. ESCOTT said it had been stated by th e tfttl e Lord (J. Russell) who opened the debate on the presen i v e se ject, and it had been repeated by more than one Hen' ki 11 s in ber who had followed, that th e present per i o d was the erect " the fate of Ireland. Wh en h e fi rst h ear d t h e express l " o lll doubted much. whether it was not one of those which 0 % 0 0 fell in the course of the debate, because be his; not help thinking how many times, during ~ of own brief experience in th a t House, the crisi v is, Ireland had arrived.—( Hear, hear. ) But be or, Escott) really believed, from what had passed during f at et sent debate, that the present was really a cr i s is in the , t oes Ireland.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord (Russell) bad ; n iser, that the effect of his motion, if c arr i e d, wou ld b e the °ln ie ment of the present Government and th e substitutionies another. He (Mr. Escott) would not disguise all n off than others who had spoken that evening-, that he was a relit man, but he trusted the House would give him c oat' for his assurance when he stated, that if he thought the d i e rying of the Noble Lord's motion would tend to softe e es animosities, allay the passions, and heal the differe n t, se, Ireland—if he thought it could possibly have this effe e st e by this effect consolidate the peace and add to the streas o nto the British empire, he would at once throw off the fr e st ioll; of party and give his cordial vote in support of the T t i And, notwithstanding the taunts which the Noble LT. a ids thrown out upon Hon. Members on his (Mr. Eseotts/pei of the House, it was his own conviction that if the Neblo .bat could demonstrate to the conviction of independent rain t e sti! the course he proposed to them to take was the best the bad be adopted—notwithstanding his taunts he would hav e h ne majority in that House t o su pp or t hi m , an d enable s carry his principles into effect. Bat he for one must st),,no he had heard the remedies of the Noble Lord tb' t feelings almost of dismay. If it were poasiblegol. his motion could be carried, and that, being F c iple ic ; 'he Noble Lord should return to power, the P ry 0 01 . 1 A which he had enunciated in his speech were such a ' s flei7 scatter dismay and confusion into every part o f the , nuf Kingdom. The Noble Lord hail consumed nearly an ' an d; his speech in an endeavour to bring into co ntemPtt oe o ol , vilify, the legal tribunals of this country. He ° teat 0 1 with an attack not on the l ega l t r ib una l s o f Ireland , be b those of England.—( Hear, hear.) Let no one thins O r a j the bad taste to suppos e th a t t o him belong s- 1, 0 high privilege of defending the character of Ille glite r ' e j Chancellor of Englard.—( H ear , h ear , and il t ssck„ But if that eminent and learned individual was to heater col But if that eminent and learned individual was to b e en o for a light word spoken year s a go , an d w hi c h he had n o oeri l b s pected to hear of again, save in lo w R a di c al and de cr ies newspapers, surely they c ould a ll ca ll u p i n their rnere ta s le o sir, recollection of a Secretary of State, wh o had dared kisp es b s nate the majority of the Peers of th e l an d as the "mast f o e faction.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He did not t o e l o to right of the Noble Lo r d t o c h a ll enge an d inquir i aos eu , conduct pursued by the legal tribunals of th s atc e l or of Ireland, provided there had been anythingit stitutional in it.—( Hear.) But the Noble l' w ps iet o t merely vilified the tribunals, without even advase, charge against them. True, from another quarter 191'ClO't last night heard a charge brought against the 11- on e M el Justice—not so much as to his words as against his °rope' and he denied that the House of Commons could be s a r gbt er t ie occupied in discussing the manners of a judge.—( l ." o 2 , l oS s if, The great leader of the Whigs had attacked the J. ll ; f itS - te recent trials, and in doing so had attacked trial hYi f ate to o —(" Oh, oh," and great laughter.) The conduc t d ° u nder. tt ed vernment in regard to thelate trials might be divick s .„,olo l p heads—the policy and the legal effect of them. These„r„ase, were proper subjects for the consideration of that T it to ' l - 1 ;4 to the policy, then, was it a sufficient answer Wire_ got°, .sit as had been said by the Noble Lord and by w t. °. loft i ly Learned Gentleman (Mr. Sergeant A p l r u o r s p e h e y ut ):, o ": oo ::: ll sat down, that other parties had also been gun t lyere bi d meanors, for which they had not been indicted. itt jre oo o no anology between the cases, for the were an imperative duty. So far from these P t , foo leading the people of Ireland to despair, as had bee s wise t he said would be the case. The very first step wbi e d Ted vernment was called upon to take, was to Put L u c ' been / or law those who were agitating the country. He,l, o rd t o ol much struck by the manner in which the Nobi e ss a oce yore sell) had dwelt on the fact of the delay which N o ble w e re in the commencement of these prosecutions. T.h u .s , se lve s ,oe• (lid not argue so much that the prosecutions ine`"„ n per.ooo improper as that they were undertaken at an. Mir a B ee t for It was not then the prosecution hut the tim e 050 0 JO that caused him to' complain. But could theY,P r v iaene e l ittle, conspiracy before they had formed the link or ,ehe seat see was to prove the charge ? Were they to take isolated act, or wait and see what would t_r* whether the transgression was merely 70 e aro l o rd s ment or followed up into a continuance ?—k is t o ble, e pee s ' He would now proceed to the strength of the . 0 to ir iv case, which consisted in a general charge of iniu st e n ot in: o gliS Now, if he could hear a single charge of inkststicaoro, br b oa Ireland, but to any subject of the. United King so ble .0 4 home to her Majesty's Government, the i n iustic' itst" J PP° is should have his vote. Two instances n i The a- p g. been mentioned ; and what were they ? , ment of two judges of strong political cha s l e et no sse e their capacity of politicians, not as judges. Th s e d been 'at t them was, in fact, that their political opinions °k it e re"r s iefel to those of the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) n ' e 0 0 n. ' on the one of them, at least, it had been admitted by 4 ) _ ;l oges. s o; her opposite% that he was one of the most humUrn_Lbus_r'sabeo, Irish bench. The Noble Lore, in referring to i.n ... : the 0 0 _ 4 ion, said,. " You have a Church in Ireland __ ol i o/ 15 . 7 0 W_ one million, whereas the other sin or seve sVb i le hi ll' totally different religious opinions;" and the ~,0 0 wo o arit y , , tamed that that was an injustice to Ireland. a `f, by eq ° 4o expected the Noble Lord to state what he me 1. 7_ 1A to ! t ot to * fife the awnhdethifer he e e 4riedallnylean" i n its laced pithbe it, what he meant to set up ha - v -- incl.s liste n, oa th_ „4 (Mr. Escott) declared that, i r sly t :„ the utmost attention to the Noble Lo!_.,ooes e sh00 1(1 believed that the only remedy for thegT,7 ‘ , oo th abo to which he proposed was, that. the grant to .""? w as s ais doubled. The grant to Maynooth Coilege n , . on c r e es oces 8,0001. or 10,000/. By increasing this a mo r u s t a i d % I to ' e. be done to Ireland, and all its clamours ° to Ct Mete' were to be removed. Before they went for wouldsu Sunderland r w l n e n ] well to h ad recollect prn pes proposed ants histl e Nobl e remedy of Ireland. There were in that House three was ,e o rl, in reference to the Church question. Then, on den top . the Noble Lord the Member for the City 0 , ' o ' t the l i lt b 1 L fn o rci rsl itsh igs s e a v ar a r , til e_ o i, f small one, he believed; there was the partY, last Learned Gentleman opposite, strengthenellthe Goo ro poss great accession; and there was the partY Lon don s r i gioc e be '1 he Noble Lord the Member for the City 0' gra n s ite, to a nd t a c s el h le e ge h . ad The a]rea ri d e y n s . t n at n e d d, L to ear ninecdreGaseen t t i h em e a g n ra ,s, ,, reapsvi si b le i t t.oa s o e. e a r_ P° the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, pro _ nu to th in t• re number both of Irishmen and Englishn' en " k tb‘. l b° a great boon to Ireland. He was hapPY i n to e ffe F h el t ° ,4 bad no chance of carrying their intentiesi „ It, sat _ _ o n that they all meant to maintain the union. , hadble L b o e r e d n , stpheeakllilnegmtbeenr minutes, the thatt City o bet e L t o n fl an u k : i:o isr iw. lb o .00 1 such as to earn for him the brightest example of courage and I daring. He (Lord Brougham) thought there was no brighter example of courage and daring than that exhibited in an act which had been performed under Gambier. He recollected well the night when the thanks of the House of Commons were voted to him, and he (Lord Brougham) then heard many circumstances which proved his almost miraculous courage, which had never been excelled before, and meet certainly hnd never been since eclipsed. Lord Cochrane, for (Lord Broug ham) would call him by that name, instead of that with which he signed the petition—had displayed almost incredible valour by his act upon the coast of South America, when he cut out a large ship of war belonging to the enemy with only, compara tively speaking a handful of men, and brought her in triumph to his fleet. His merits were of the highest order, and were fully appreciated by the Sovereigns of Europe, and in France the effect was most marked on the Sovereign and Court of that country when the name of Cochrane was an nounced. Again, the arts and manufactures of the country were most deeply indebted to the Noble Lord for his discovery of a most important principle in the steam engine, namely, the application of the rotatory motion principle. That eminent man James Watt had devoted his deep attention to this subject but without success, and so had several other eminent men. Upon the perfection of this invention he had expended upwards of 16,000/. , while he had never reaped the slightest pecuniary benefit from it. The Noble Lord at the head of the Admi ralty had borne testimony to the merits of this invention from his personal inspection, and he (Lord Brougham) dare to say that he would bear him out in his statements. Although he thought that the 13111 of 1835 had effected much good, still he should say that the right during seven years only would not, on account of general prejudices, be sufficient in this case. He was sure that their Lordships would be glad to do justice to merit, which was so useful to mankind. The prayer of the petition was, that Parliament should grant to Lord Dundonald a further time of fourteen years, or some other term of years, or that Parliament would pass an Act to enable the petitioner to go before the Judicial Committee to obtain from them that extension of time. The Earl of II ADDINGTON expressed his en'ire con currence in what had fallen from his Noble F r i en d. It was perfectly true, that instead of the late Earl of Dundonald reaping the fruits of his exertions during his life, he was d - pendent on the dutiful and affectionate support of his gallant son. With respect to the character of the Earl of Dundonald, as a naval officer, there could be but one opinion. lle was one of the most gallant, daring, and skilful officers that ever walked the quarter-deck of a man of war. His character was known to every person whe had read the history of the last war. 'I he invention to which the petition referred was likely to turn out a most important one. in carrying that invention out, Lord Dundonald had had the full assistance of the Admi ralty. It was evident that unless an extension of time were given, that this invention would pr6ve a great loss to the pa tentee. It was a beantiful and promising discovery, and the present Board of Admiralty had shown their sense of it, and also their sense of the science of the Noble and Gallant Admi ral, by allowing him to build a shi; , , which was now in the eaurse of construction, of which the Gallant Admiral had laid down all the lines. His engines were to be put into that ship, and it was to be called the Janus. He ( the Earl of Hadding ton) hoped that justice would be done to that Gallant and No ble Admiral, by a prolongation of the term of his patent. The Marquis of NORMANBY said, his Noble Friend having alluded to the professional distinction of Lord Coch rane, in connexion with his employment under his (the Mar quis of Normanby's) father, he might be permitted to state, although at the time he was too young to form any judgment of the matter, that he had often in after years heard his father express his admiration of the conduct of that Gallant Officer, and that it was on account of the great ability he had displayed, that he had bean employed in the gallant and brilliant action at the Basque-roads. The petition was then laid on the table. The Bishop of SALISBURY presented a petition agairst the union of the two sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION IN IRELAND. Earl FITZWILLIAM said he had inovecifoT:s7;e7lirn of the number of troops in Ireland, and he understood that those returns had not been laid on the table of the House.—( The Lord Chancellor here intimated that they had been given out. ) —lt was important that the people should know a little about the expensive mode by which it was necessary to gayer?, or rather to occupy, Ireland. Their Lordships and the public at large would soon h a ve ve r y good reason to consider that sub ject. However distasteful it might be to the public at large— however peculiarly distasteful to their Lordships.—however distasteful it might be to the other House of parliament—it was a subject which must, at no very distant period, force itself on their Lordships' attention. His Noble Friend the President of the Giuncil had long ago dis cussed this subject in that House, and with reference to the modes proposed for the settlement of the question, stated his objections to one mode, his objections to .a second, and his objections to a third mode. From this he (Earl Fitzwilliam) concluded that the Government was in difficulty with respect to every mode proposed. The conclusion he always came to when he found persons striving to discover great difficulties in the accornrlishment of any object, was, that they were deter mined that such object should not be accomplished. One of the first objects that must press upon their consideration with respect to Ireland, must t e the want of spiritual comfort for the people of Ireland. No person could deny that the first duty of Parliament was to provide for the administration of spiritual comfort to the people of that country. The Govern ment of England did not provide spiritual instruction for the people of Ireland. The Government, it was true, provided instruction for a small portion ; they provided instruction for the Noble Marquis opposite (Westmeath), but they did not provide instruction for the people of Ireland. It was his ( Earl Fitz william's) conviction that the time had arrived when the con sideration of the public of this country should be turned to the provision of spiritual comfort to the people of Ireland. As long as there was ecclesiastical property in that country, out of that ecclesiastical property ought to come the fund to provide that spiritual instruction for the people. That was his belief ; and he also believed that it would be necessary for the Govern ment ere long to consider this question. The Earl of DEVON presented a petition from a poor-law union in the county of Vevon, praying for alteration in the bastardy clauses of the New Poor-law Bill. LAWS RELATING TO GAMING. The Duke of RICHMOND said that the Committee ap pointed to inquire into this subject had found that they could not proceed with their investigation, in consequence of its being necessary to warn the witnesses that they were not bound to criminate themselves. To obviate this diffieul' yhe had now to submit to their Lordships a Bill to indemnify any witnesses who might be examined, against the consequences of the evi dence which they gave. Lord CAMPBELL concurred in the object of the measure, and said he anticipated great public benefit would result from the inquiries of the Committee. The Bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday next. METROPOLITAN IMPROVEMENTS. The Duke of BUCCLEUCH brought in a Bill, the object of which was, he said, to carry into effect certain projected im provements in the city of London. Lord MONTEAGLE said that though he objected to the principle involved in the Bill, of allowing the Bank of Eng. land to grant money on mortgage, as being a dangerous one, the object of the measure was so good, and the amount re quired so small, that he would waive his objection. He proposed that the Commissioners of Woods and Forests should annually lay before Parliament an account of the sums advanced. He had drawn up a clause to that effect, which he would hand to the Noble Duke, as he wished it should be in troduced into the Bill. The Duke of BUCCLEUCH believed that the Commis. sioners already made returns to Parliament, which would fur nish the information which the Noble Lord was desirous of ob taining. If there were no technical objections to the clause. he would have it introduced on the third reading of the Bill. The Bill then passed through Committee, and their Lord. ships adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 16. The SPEAKER took the chair at Four o'Clock. POOR-LAW RETURNS. A clerk from the office of the Poor-law Commissioners pre rented certain returns. COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS. Mr. ESTCOURT moved the appointment of the Select Committee on Standing Orders :—Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Wilson Patten, Mr. Pendarves, Mr. William Miles, Mr. Cumming Bruce, Sir Robert Ferguson, Mr. Ord, and the Chairmen of the Committee and of the Sub-Committees on Petitions for Private Bills.—Agreed to. REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE. Mr. W. WILLIAMS presented a petition from Bridgewater, praying the House not to consent to any increase in the mai. tart' establishment until the people should be fully represented. Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a petition from Birming. ham with a similar prayer. LIN ERPOOL GAS BILL. Leave was given to introduce the Liverpool Gas Bill. STOPPING THE SUPPLIES. Dr. BOWRING presented a petition, signed by 2,300 o f the inhabitants of Bolton, complaining of th state of the re presentation, and praying that the supplies might not b) voted till the grievances of the people were redressed. Mr. STANSFIELD presented a petition with a similar prayer. Lord MARSHAM presented petitions from places in Kent, praying that publicans might be placed on the same footing with shopkeepers with regard to the window duty. Mr. WALLACE presented a petition from Mr. Cadogan Williams, complaining that Railroad Companies acted upon a system which deprived the working classes of those benefits which railroads ought to confer upon the public generally, and that the proprietors acted exclusively for their own benefit without reference to the public. The petitioner expressed his opinion that the poorer classes were stowed away in third class carriages, with straw, canvass, and leather, which were thought of equal value.—( Laughter. ) PROTECTION TO AGRICULTURE, Sir J. TROLLOPE presented a petition from Spalding, and several petitions from other places in Lincolnshire, praying for a continuance of agricultural protection. THE ARMY. Mr. VILLIERS presented;. petition from Liverpool, praying that no supplies should be granted until the military force of the country had been reduced, as the petitioners stated that a standing army was a great temptation to .a Government to rule the country in a despotic manner. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. WALLACE gave notice that. on Monday, he should move for a return of the names of the Commissioners of her Majesty's Customs, the age of each, and the period at which they entered the service. He should further move, on Monday, for a return to show the number of actions that had already been commenced, and what informa tions had been filed with respect to the frauds on the Customs. He also gave notice that on Monday he should inquire of the Under-Secretary of the Treasury at what time the free postage writing paper would be issued, and what the cost would be to the public. Colonel RAWDON gave notice that on Monday he should move for a return of the naval force that had been employed on the coast of Ireland from the year 1834 to the present time. ARMY AND POLICE IN IRELAND. Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved for returns relating to the number of the military and police employed in Ireland during certain years, 1810, 1815, &c., to the present year ; also, for a return of the amount of money voted in the years named re spectively, for the maintenance of the police force in that country.—Ordered. Mr. BARRY BALDWIN moved for a return of the amount of stock transferred from England to Ireland since the Ist of January, 1841.—Ordered. moved from returnsdforlB2Bto l relating to the M f r o . r e A i gl Aldermann urines rm an T i n EI IVd P , in S the N years in clusive.—Ordered. PUBLIC SALARIES Mr. SecretaryClerk)le m i a n n the WILLIAMS, totheT rseeaesiunrgythe( Sir George Place, begged leave to ask him a question. In an early Gent part of last session, he (Mr. W.) moved for a return of the number of persons receiving the public money in salaries or pensions, to the amount of 1,0001. and upwards. This re turn was presented to the Treasury on the 10th of February. Now what he wished to ask wa when the return would be laid on the t a bl e o f the House? s' Sir G. CLERK said that the Report had been prepared for some time ; but before the returns could be presented it would be necessary for the Hon. Member to give a fresh notice and to alter the form of his motion, as there were several offices included in the return, which were not comprehended in the Hon. Gentleman's motion. Mr. WILLIAMS then gave notice that on Monday n ex t he would bring forward the motion m an amended form. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. Sir G. CLERK moved that the House, at its rising, do ad journ till Monday.—Agreed to. ESTIMATES. Mr. WILLIAMS begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, whether he intended to take the Army or the Navy Estimates first, in the Committee of Supply. Sir R. PEEL said, the Navy Estimates would be taken first ; but,for the convenience of the House, he would move that ' the Order of the Day for going into Committee of Supply be postponed till Monday next. The Order was then postponed. EXPOR T OF COALS. Mr. HUME asked the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury, whether, since the House separated last session, there had been any order issued with respect to the export duty on coals, and whether any alteration had taken place in the amount of the duty ? He understood that some modification had taken place in the duty, and that the export of coals had been allowed, subject to that modifi cation. If this was the fact, it was desirable the House should be in possession of some information respecting it. Sir R. PEEL said that any order that had been male on the subject should be laid before the House. COMMUNICATION WITH AMERICA. Sir VALENTINE BLAKE said he had, on the previous evening given notice of a motion for considering the expediency of establishing a quicker communication with America by rail roads and canals in communication with the ship canal across Ireland, and thence by steamers across the Atlantic. He now merely had to notice, that in the Times of this day it was stated that his motion was for executing railways and canals across the Atlantic. Of course the reporter would not have been consistent if he had not added, "great laughter." —( Hear, hear, and laughter.) If that had been the object of his motion, the laughter would have been perfectly just. He did not think it necessary to convert the matter into a breach of privilege—( Laughter)—ard he hoped it would not be ne cessary to take any further notice of it. Sir R. PEEL begged to assure the Hon. Baronet that nothing would be harder than that he should blame the re porter; he had fallen into die same mistake himself.—(Great laughter.) Sir V. BLAKE was astonished that the Right Hon. Ba ronet should have fallen into the same mistake as the records of Parliament stated the purport of the motion which he made dui ing the last session. THE CATHEDRALS. Mr. HUME asked the Right Hon. Baronet if he had had any communication with the Dean and Chapter of Westminster with respect to the admission fees into the Cathedral. Sir It. PEEL said he had had several communications with the Dean and Chapter, but he had not received any intimation of any final arrangement having been made on the subject. IRELAND—ADJOURNED DEBATE. Captain BERNAL, in rising to resume the adjourned de bate, said that after the able and eloquent speech, last even ing, of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland ( Lord ilowick), it was but natural for the House to suppose that some leading Member of the opposite side would have risen to reply to him. He (Capt. Bernal) waited for some time in expectation that this would be the case, and in moving the adjournment he had been charged with standing between the Right lion. Baronet at the head of the Government and the House. He certainly should not presume to have got up at all, had he known such would have been the case, and he thought it necessary to give this explanation, as he had been blamed not only by friends but rather by opponents. If they wanted proof of the truth of Oxensteirn s saying, •• Go, my son, and see with how little wisdom this world is governed," he thought it could readily he found in the present Govern ment in regard to their policy in Ireland. He had listened with great surprise and equal attention to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Jas. Graham). That it was all complaisance and mildness he (Captain Bernal) was free to confess, but through all that speech of blandishments it was very evident that in his heart was lurking the old principle of " Protestant ascendancy" and "No surrender." That speech would show to Ireland that Ministers had never contem plated any measure whatever of effective concession. and conciliation. There was a time when the Irish nation made their solemn renunciation of a repeal of the union—there was a time when there were no monster meetings—no meet ings at all, save those of a few noblemen and gentlemen who turned their backs upon the Lord Lieutenant, because he wished to govern the country in a spirit of fairness and impartiality. —(Hear, hear.) The Government now had reduced the country to three classes—infantry, cavalry, and artillery.-- (Hear, hear.) There might have been Governments in Ire land more arbitrary and blood-thirsty—that of Strafford, for instance—than the present one—but they could not bring to him the instance of any Administration that was more tho roughly anti-Irish than the present. Was he alone in this opinion? Indeed he was not ; for, during the last session of Parliament, the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Recorder of Dublin (Mr. Shaw), maintained the same sentiments, though expressed perhaps in somewhat milder language. That Right lion. Gentleman maintained, too, and with pertinacious deter mination, that he had got hold of the right religion, and ho was not alone in thinking so.—(Laughter, and a sign of dis sent from Mr. Shaw.) Why, he said, so late as last night, that he would sacrifice his life for that which he and others held—the ex clusive possession of religious truth.— ( Hear.) He came now to the conduct of the Government, in reference to the late monster meetings in Ireland ; and he must say that he con sidered it most strange that, after watching them for nine months, and even declaring that in them they viewed the pre parations for rebellion, they had only acted at the very last moment, and that, too, with such precipitation. In respect to the trials fer calling or attending these monster meetings, lie must admit that the Rig ht Honourable Baronet (Sir J. Graham) made a successful defence of the Govern ment, so far as the striking of the panel went. But the broad and plain question for them to consider was, not what was due to the mere technicalities of lawyers, but what was due to the great principle of truth, ho nesty, and justice. He was sorry that the Attorney- General for Ireland, who, it was promised, would have been in his place before this, was not present, as, had he been so, he should have made some observations, which, under the pre sent circumstances, he should refrain from. •It had been ss serted by a Noble Member of the Government (Lord Stanley ) that there had been a systematic attempt to force the Attorney- General for Ireland into a broach of decorum.—( Hear, hear.) He (Captain Bernal) was in a position to contradict this ' • and to assert that no such attempt, that no such de sire had ever existed, except in the over-heated imagination of the Right Honourable and choleric Gentleman himsel'. He had a list of the appointments under Lord De Grey's Ad • r ministration. It appeared that they had had ten preferments to give away. He would merely refer to one of them. The Rev. Holt Waring had been made Dean of Dromore, a sineenre dignity, worth 1,5001. a year. This gentleman was formerly Grand Chaplain of the Orangemen, a political agitator, re markable for his bigotry, and these were some of his exploits : —ln the year 1835 there was a large meeting at Hillsborough. Shortly after eleven o'clock, said the account, bands announced the approach to the town of the first. divi sion, but at half distance.—(Laughter.) They were headed by the Rev. Holt Waring. A union jack was hoisted as the signal of their arrival. In a few minutes they were seen marching down a steep hill, and approaching the place of meeting, comprising in all not less than 20,000 persons. Having escorted Mr. Waring to the front of the platform, they received his flag, and having given three cheers—let Hon. Gentlemen opposite mark this expression—they de ployed and took up their position around. —(Great laughter. ) The meeting at length amounted to 75,000 persons, and at this meeting Mr. Waring made an inflammatory speech against the Catholics, and the national system of education. His merits were passed over by the late Government, and it remained for Lord De Grey to appoint him to this situation. With respect to his Excellency's thirty-nine chaplains—an un precedented number—they all agreed in one point, namely, op• position to the system of national education. To leave the system in such hands resembled the trying of conspirators by a jury which was opposed to them.—( Hear, hear.) In the year 1839 the Right Hon. Baronet made the volun tary and remarkable confession that Ireland was his chief diffi culty. Now he was anxious to put this question to the Right Hon. Baronet—at what point would his difficulty become realised ?—(Hear, hear.) Was he not satisfied with having counteracted all the good which had been done in Ire land for the last fifteen years ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers. ) Was it not enough to have set sect against sect? Was not the religious animosity of that country again excited 7 Was not the country ruled by the army? Was not the Duke of Wellington in fact Pro-Consul of Ire land ?—( Loud cheers.) He called upon the Right Honourable Baronet to make a declaration as to what was the maximum of difficulty with which he would be content. Did he wait till Ireland was deluged with blood, and irretrievably lost to Great Britain? He called upon the Right Hon. Baronet to come forward and say what was his maxim um o f diffi cu l ty.— ( Ch eers. ) Il e (Captain Bernal) could not but express his regret at the apathy which existed among the great body of English Members as to Irish grievances.—( Hear.) If a sense of justice could not rouse them to take part with Ireland, perhaps a sense of self-interest might.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The Right Hon. Baronet the Secret ar y of State or the Home Department had let drop some signifi cant expaessions the other night in that debate. He hinted at conspiracy. Let not Hon. Gentlemen be too secure in their confidence. The same scenes which were now rehearsing in Ireland, might be enacted in England. They might depend upon it that it was not the disposition but the opportunity that was wanting. " Jam proximus ardet Ucalegon." It was net by the vituperation of the Hon. Member for Cork that they would conciliate the affections of the Irish people. If they intended to rule Ireland with advantage to England they must do it with re. garsl to Irish notions, nay to Irish prejudicies.—(Hear, hear.) Above all they must cherish the Catholic reli gion as a good, not tolerate it as an evil.—( Hear, hear.) He asked were the present Government prepared to do thiis ? The answer was, No. He repeated in the words of a great deceased man, that the present Government could not govern Ireland for England. The loss of a nation's good will (said the Hon Member in conclusion) is synonymous with the loss of reputation. After long experience of all your past tyranny, Ireland may, in the prodigality of her mercy, forgive you, but surely she can never trust you.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. D'ISRAELI thought he ought not to- shrink on the present occasion from expressing, without reserve, and with the utmost explicitness, the view that he entertained of the question before the House, and he trusted that in doingso he would meet with the indulgence of the House. In the first place, he must remark that in his speech the Noble Lord, the Member for Sunderland, who had closed the debate last night, repeated what was often stated in that House, a right apprecia tion of which would, he (Mr. D'lsraeli) imagined, throw great light on the general subject, and facilitate the solution of that vexatious political problem—he meant the right government of Ireland. The Noble Lord referred to a period of more than 300 years ago—the period of the Reformation, and the Hon. and Learned Member for Devonport (Sir George Grey), while he equally, with the Noble Lord, avowed his conviction in the truth of Protestant principles, seemed to be of opinion, that between the introduction of those Protestant principles of religion and the misgovernment of Ireland there was a necessary and irresistible connexion. Now he (Mr. Disraeli) wished to place before the House some facts which were necessary for its consideration. If he were to refer to that period in the history of Ireland when the Government of the country approached nearly to the de scription which the Honourable Gentleman opposite often offered as that which they wished to see established, it would be a period by no means so distant as that to which the Noble Lord referred. He would take, for instance, a period of only two hundred years back— the period immediately preceding the breaking out of the great civil war. Now what was the Government of Ire land at that period ? There was a Parliament in Dublin called bE V es i r c t sa e b r o o i fi y s I) — }, ea t dr h e i ar Churchet en t wa i were Roman by a Protest an t Ki ng, and presided over by a Protestant y c e a t th th o e lic m s. ajo T ri h ty e ofG Government e rn M m e e m n - t nsteealtand,that time a Prote s t an t of the country was carried on by a Council of State—presided over by a Protestant Deputy —yet the majority of that Council of State were Roman Catholics; the majority of the sheriffs of counties were Roman Catholics ; and the prepon derating numbers of the magistracy were Roman Catholics. It was, therefore, very evident that it was not a necessary con sequence of English connection, of Protestant ascendancy, or of a Protestant Established Church, that those embittered feel ings that at present existed, and that system of exclusion which so long flourished either in form or in spirit—it was by no means evident, but very much the reverse, that these were the consequences of that Protestant connection. There was a work which threw much light on the subject—it was the Journal of an English Baronet (Sir William Brereton). That writer mentioned, he recollected, in one passage, the circumstance of