The Sun. — London, England, 1836-07-26 00:00:00

solutely rence to ndations Majesty bishops Che Bill ns ; for, r than a to any the two of opi cessary ; ante to of the t, there it went DW hap ', and to o secure mely, to •ofessed. hich was he ene my with ler pro- Church that a c Legis r such a the pre injustice ay mein tpon the n which y assess- leile the ing with Either r-heated se. The reform, lout the and no to the that this feeblest a reform Parlia d perfect lasses of views of ra;and night be d it with appeared but they fling and ;s as you will fall appeared ouse was -Gentle asure of asonable ,appoint- world, a he Hon. ection of vhen all :ffect the •ark was r.) He t that he —( Hear, he dim ded who Q f the pared to lat they 'erred on ores had tahlished Session LI corn e—habi— lee from pon that rliament, man, to ler their ther and when he ), which which it t of any' as an in— ' that s ee uppos;ing ese:lt In d s , the r eleven the le' sum. h would re made luestion. dissat..-- !d, when -131 JOHN . 3 him 'a scission► ':iter the bound to propos ed Jr carry - Durhol l what he :roduced vho was herefora- Mildest Lr , As t ir ,o words "an Mil- passed , h who°, he had induce d to in the the in ing- the ; Zusset* lief da" P.nd brou'gbv Tould bB ed lin g tw o a n p ros' tt not b Church' 'r it wag ted mi a xpr . eEse be intr °- mild for ire' a ye ar, f in t h i e 20, 0 °" t be e"- )est tike ih l s ng oP °f ruth th e Pari ll ' o f tbe n i g ht; ?.ss tha n i ' ght at led Oa Id frail nurit he i r° ' ras also reESi' .111' hat the ifora Ce , — Coov 'whose a the Hous e Hous e I crieg ,mar ,1 t V ID° ~ 0 Loarnca heir.) After a few words from Mr. PRAED, The House divided, when the numbers were— Ayes 43 Noes 117 Majority against the i ns t ruc ti on The H305:3 then resolved itself into Committee Upon the second clause being proposed, Mr. PRAED moved an amendment. After a short conversation, the House was cleared for a division, but none took place. The other clauses were then agreed to, and the report Was ordered to be received this day. ___ _ Friend was treated with great injustice.—(Hear, STAMP DUTIES BILL. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE. QUER, this Bill was read a third time. The CHANC ELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then biought up a clause relating to the distinctive die. Upon the question being put, Mr. WAKLEY expressed a hope that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not press this measure at so late an hour. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that as the law now stood all remarks on matters connected with Church and State were deemed to be a newspaper; and the present Bill omitted these words, so that instead of making the law at all more stringent, it was a concession in favour of the principle advocated by the Hon. Member for Finsbury. Mr. A GLIONBY thought the provision referred to incon sistent with the profession made by the Right Hon. Gentle man (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) when the measure Was under discussion; for it certainly contained a direct pro hibition against publishing remarks on public events and measures in such a cheap form as to have them read by the public generally. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that in publication s containing remarks on passing events it wou ld b e Impossibl e t o prevent te insertion of accounts of these events; and that would be news. He was not aware, therefore, how Such publications could be distinguished from newspapers. Mr. WALTER commented upon several provisions of the Measure, especially upon the clause which enacted that the na mes of all the proprietors of newspapers should be regis tered at the Stamp-office--a clause which he imagined must have been suggested by some attorney, for the purpose of en abling him to bring separate actions. Pitt and Castlereagh were liberality itself, compared with the liberality of some of th e Eupporters of this liberal measure. As to th e b es t secur it y for the good conduct of proprietors of newspapers, he had !pen referring to the debates of former days on the subject, and„„ among ot h er op i n i ons h e h a d f oun d t h at o f Si r J ames mackintosh, who stated that the best guarantees for such con. duct were the large capital, the deep interest, and the high sense of honour of the proprietors of newspapers ; and who deprecated their being thrown into the hands of desperate ad venturers, who would be ready to become the tools of any Party or faction. Dr. BO WRING put a question to the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to the size of the double-sheet newspapers, the answer to which was per fectly inaudibl e ; b u t we understood the lion. Member for Kilmarnock to say, that according to the statement of the Right lion. Gentleman The Morning Chronicle would not, in consequence of its larger size, be excluded (as was ap prehended) frem the benefit to be enjoyed by the other papers. After a few observations by Mr. E WART and Colonel SIBTiIo RP, Mr. WALTER repeated his condemnation of the tenth claus e of the Bill, adding, that it was some satisfaction to feel that if the Bill passed that it would not pass the other 11 011 SC of Ronan-lent. The CHAN CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that although lie had that morning seen the observations just must te teg by the Ilonourable Member for Berkshire in print, he to state to the Honourable Gentleman that it was not very regular to declare within those walls that any mea sure approved by the House would not pass elsewhere. It would require all th e cons titutional knowled ge p ossesse d b y the Hon. Gentlemen, whether acquired in former days, or during his attendance on Parliament, to reconcile with the usag es of that House the statement that a money Bill, a Bill for the repeal of taxation, a Bill for the relief of the people, although it might pass in the House of Commons, was not likely to pass elsewhere. With respect to the clause to which' the non. Gentleman especially alluded, it had been discussed in the Committee on two days, and no objection was made to it. It was felt that there was great responsibility attached to the conduct of a public newspaper, and that those who gave to the public the species of information which it contained had no right to hide themselves from the public view. There was not the slightest intention to curb the expression of opinion. That would remain as free as ever; and surely, to let it be known from whom that opinion proceeded, would not, if it were doubt ful, make it either right or wrong. It had been said that a newspaper might belong to a vast number of joint-stock pro prietors; and then it would be hard that all their names should be registered. But it would be much harder if (and especially hi country towns) a new paper was set up with a capital con sisting of 10/. shares, and it should not be known to the esta blished prints who their competitors were. He could not help thinking that publicity of this kind was well calculated to in sure a dh erence to principle, whatever might be the politics of t _ o the pa r ti es. With respect to the particular clause to which the P r. Member for Berkshire adverted, it must be in the recol lection of the House that it was not in the Bill originally, but that it g as introduced after due notice. Mr. WALLACE observed that it was introduced at a late hour in the night. He moved that the clause be omitted. On a division there appeared'-- For the motion Against it .. The Bill Majority 58 Ali was then - read a third time. On the motion that the Bill do pass, Mr. Wr I( LE Y opposed the motion, and charged his Ma jesty's ft , linisters with a breach of faith in not having by the Bill rt nealcd the objectionable parts of the existing law. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended the Bill, and expressed his great surprise that, after the dis eu`s,,,ns which the Bill had undergone, it should be thus op -130,..ed in its last stage. He was anxious to pass the Bill, that i t nil& be sent to the other House of Parliament. Let the House recollect that the Bill could not be now amended. The O nly question to be decided was, whether the Bill should pass or not pass. Dr. BOWRING hoped his Hon. Friend the Member f or Firsbury would not press his objection to the motion. The House then divided— For the motion Against it Majority —4B The Bill was then passed. The Newspaper Postage Bill was read a third time and passed. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the Rouse adjourned at Two o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 25. Th e LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at .five o'clock. SCOTCH ENTAILS. On the motion of the Duke of BUCCLEUGH, the Commons' amendments to the Scotch Entail Bill were agreed to. Lord STRA.DBROKE presented a petition in favor of certain clauses in the Grand Jury (Ireland) Bill. Tbe Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition frem Satherland against the Irish Tithe Bill ; and a peti tion from the proprietor of a light-house against the Light '"uses 13111 ; also a petition from the gold and silver workers of Inverness, against the Gold and Silver (Scotland) Stan dard Bill. The Noble Duke then presented a petition frc'n:i the proprietors of Waterloo Bridge against the Hun gertcrd and Lambeth Suspension Bridge. Thc Bishop of ARMAGH presented a petition from Cork, to the same effect a s th a t fi rs t p resen t e d by th e Noble buke. Ea r l DE YON presented a petition from the owners and Propriet ors o f *lnd on the Surrey side of the river, in favour of the Bill. The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition from an imdividual in Dublin, in support of the Protestant religion. .Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI presented a peti titioo from the Diocese of Cashel and Emly against the Irish Tii.he Bill. Viscount MELBOURNE presented petitions from Wicklow. Mayo, and the diocese of Ferns, Wexford, Clare, and other places, prayin g c , for the abolition of tithes. CIVIL BILL COURTS (IRELAND). The Earl of DEVON moved the second reading of the Civil Bill Courts (Ireland) Bill, which, after a few words from the Marquis of CLANRICARDE, was agreed to. MANCHESTER AND CHESHIRE JUNCTION W AY. Lord WHARNCLIFFE moved that the Committee °n the Manchester and Cheshire Junction Railway do re assemble, for the purpose of reporting specially the reasons :1)n whi c h they founded their resolution that the preamble /tad not been proved. The Earl of UXBRIDGE d e fended the Report of the C ommittee, and objected to the present motion, on the grouod that the engineering difficulties were insurmountable. LoNi WHARNCLIFFE contended that the line was a mo s t u, , eful one, and that the evidence with respect to its p r acticabih:y was most satisfactory. On the whole line of thi'riT miles long there were only three miles of descent, anti the promoters of the Bill had no ob jection t o d eviate so far from their line, as to re rniaoye., the_ obje c ti ons t o it s passing through Stockp ort. H e thought the conc l us i ot: t o which the Committee had . c ome was a most extraordinary one ; and all t h e promo t e rs Artricift a n s e ki ra p few.o edswaps that th e C omm ittee would hear the evi ort of the confli c ti n g line, and decide wordsbe themLord from Lords UXBRIDGE and DUCIE, SEAFORD would feel it his duty to support the riso2tion for the purpose of showing their Lordships '::4U"..g.r011114 upon which the Committee had made these "ulls, which, in his opinion, were most satisfactory. B t:l . atrers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, w..en there appeared, Contents lB Non -contents 23 Majority against the motion —s 'Marquis of DOWNSHIRE presented a petition Clergy of th e Di ocese o f D romore aga i nst t h e Irish Tithe Bill. RAILWAYS. The Marquis of LAIN;POWNE said, as some anxiety had been expressed relative to the adoption of a general rule as regarded the Railway Bills that might come under the notice of the Legislature, he begged to state that a Com mittee of the other House had been for some time sitting, and would very shortly report upon the subject. He should now move that a Committee be appointed, to ascertain how fir it might be expedient to make alterations in the Standing Order relative to Railways, between this and next Session. The Duke of WELLINGTON enquired if the Com mittee would examine evidence ? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not think such a step would be necessary at that advanced period of the Session. After a few words from the Marquis of CLAN RICKARDE, the motion was agreed to. ESTABLISHED CHURCH (IRELAND.) The House then went into Committee on the Established Church (Ireland) Bill. The preamble was postponed. Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. Upon clause 3, declaring all lands subject to the payment of tithe compositions charged with an annual sum by way of rent charge, equal to seven-tenths of such compositions, to be pay able by the party having the first estate of inheritance in such lands, being proposed, Lord L YND HURST, as an amendment upon this clause, proposed that the word " Leven-tenths" be struck out, for the purpose of substituting " three-fourths." He certainly did not think it unreasonable that, in consideration of the addi tional security afforded to the incumbents of parishes, by transferring the charge for tithes from the occupiers to the landlord, the consequence of that change being advantageous to the incumbent—he did not think it unreasonable that some deduction should be made, as a per centage, from the income of the incumbent. In the Bill of last Session 25 per cent. was proposed to be deducted, and he did not see any reason now for extending the allowance to be made to landlords from 25 to 30 per cent.—( Hear, hear, from the Peers on the Oppo sition benches.) Viscount ME LBOU RN E—No. Lord L YND HUR ST presumed that the Noble Lord did not assent to the correctness of that statement. It was true that in the Bill of last year 30 per cent. was to be deducted, but then there was to be a reimbursement of 5 per cent. to the present occupiers. The Noble Viscount gave some reason for this alteration—a reason that was not to him very intelligible ; but the reason assigned by the Noble Viscount was this, that the greater the delay of this question the greater must be the difficulty in collecting tithes ; and, therefore, for a single year's delay, they were to have a deduction of 25 per cent. increased to 30 per cent.--( Hear, hear, and cheers from Opposition Peers.) The argument appeared to him to be an extraordinary one ; but how did it affect the question at issue ?—(Hear, hear.) But this was the assumption of the Noble Viscount. What, how ever, was the fact? Why, if they went according to the fact, instead of there being a deduction, there ought rather to be an increase ; for the collection of tithes had been more easily ef fected in the last year by the rigour of the law : to that they were indebted for what the supineness of the Government had neglected, Lord H ATHERTON had heard a rumour that it was in- tended to propose an alteration in this part of the clause; but though he had beard, he avowed, he hardly credited it. He scarcely thought that the Noble Lords opposite could have adopted a course so inconsistent as this, particularly when it was remembered what had been done by them in the course of the last year. He begged to call the attention of the House to what measure had been prescribed to it upon this subject. Each time that the question came before them a deduction in the income of the clergymen was proposed. Three different Bills bad been submitted to their considera- tion. Four different measures had been proposed. One of them was proposed by Sir Henry Hardinge at the time that Sir Robert Peel was at the head of the Government. The Bill of Sir Henry Hardinge never was submitted to that House, but three Bills came before them. In 1834, he, on behalf of Lord Grey, had the honour to propose a measure, by which it was proposed to grant certain incomes to the clergy—a deduction was made by which their incomes would amount to 753 per cent. Their Lordships would bear in mind that not only was this amount secured to the clergy, but fur ther, there was an assurance of the complete protection of the payment. That measure was deliberately rejected-772 per cent. for the clergy, unconnected with appropriation, was de liberately rejected by their Lordships._( Hear, and cheers from the Ministerial Peers.) Under the government of Sir Robert Peel, it was proposed that there should be a deduc tion of 25 per cent.—that after the imposition of a rent-charge their incomes should be but 75 per cent. The principle of ap propriation having been adopted by the House of Commons, the Government of Sir Robert Peel retired. It was not to be expected that the Government of the Noble Viscount would also have rejected the appropriation clause. The resolution having been adopted, the appropriation clause was inserted. The Noble and Learned Lord said that there was a diffe rence of 5 per cent. between this Bill and the Bill of last year. The 5 per cent. to which the Noble and Learned Lord referred, was to be taken from the perpetuity fund, to make up the income of existing incumbents. As regarded future incumbents, this Bill and the Bill of last year were pre cisely the same.—( Hear, hear.) But he now called their Lordships' attention to what was a curious fact. By the Bill of last year the clergy were only to have 722 per cent. Their Lordships did not object to that arrangement ; they passed that part of the Bill in committee.—( Noble Lords on the Op position benches—" No, no.") He was not aware that any division took place on the amount of the rent-charge. There was this double inconsistency on the part of the Opposition— they first proposed 75 per cent., and then they did not object to 723. per cent.—( Hear, hear.) He had no chief secretary for Ireland to frame a Bill upon this measure, and he knew the extreme difficulty of obtaining the assent of popular Irish Mem bers--.( Cheers from the Opposition Peers)—and of the land owners of Ireland, to the imposition of a rent charge even to that amount.—( Hear. ) The Earl of RIPON considered that if a reduction had taken place in tithes hitherto, it was not a reason for rejecting this amendment, but adopting it. Viscount B ERE SFORD begged to assure the Noble Lord that the Irish proprietors whom he might fancy to designate "illiberal," would be very well satisfied with 25 per cent. Lord WHARNCLIFFE stated that his great objection to the measure was, that it made the clergy stipendaries. Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI observed that it was not the Bill sanctioned by Lord Grey that he and other No ble Lords, and those with whom they acted in the Commons, opposed ; but it was the Bill as afterwards altered by the No ble Lord, and rejected by those who had been Members of Lord Grey's Government. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE observed that tithes, it had been stated by the Noble and Learned Lord, had been col lected with more facility this year than last year. He would state that the fact was the reverse. What were the establish ments and institutions of this country for ? The benefit of the people. Acting upon such principles as these, his Noble Friend did wisely to make his measure palatable to the land lords and the popular party in Ireland. The Marquis of WESTMEATH should support the amendment moved by the Noble and Learned Lord. Lord PLUNKET wished Noble Lords to recollect this, that the Bill now before them was not one proposed for the purpose of disturbing the Protestant Establishment in Ireland. What, he would ask, was the situation of the Protestant Esta blishment in Ireland ? What was the situation of its clergy ? Every one must admit, both were placed in difficulty and dan ger. Every friend to that establishment must desire to place it in a better position. As long as he had known Ireland, there was a disposition to get rid of tithes. As to any particu lar force in the expression " extinction of tithes," he did not know that any should be attached to it. Noble Lords might recollect that in a Committee of that House, sitting for the purpose of investigating tithes, it was the universal opinion of the Committee that those in Ireland must be got rid of. If he was not mistaken, too, a Noble Earl, distinguished for the accuracy of his expressions, adopted this phrase. The Earl of li ARROWBY wished to know if he were al luded to ? If lie were, the Noble and Learned Lord was en tirely mistaken. The word was not his suggestion. Lord PLUNKET remembered they were all agreed in the Committee. The Noble Earl would excuse him for saying that he (the Noble Earl) was so precise in his expressions that he would cast about to get at the word that would exactly ex press his particular meaning. He would rather go a round about way, or he would rather journey through a periphrasis, titan endanger himself, like the Noble Earl, by a particular expression.--(Hear, hear, hear.) He thought, however, he might say this, that the Noble Earl was an assenter to, if not an originator of, this expression. Now upon this measure he should say, that like every other there was the misfortune of its coming too late. The favourable opportunity for consider ing it was lost. That which they now witnessed with respect to this measure was the same with reform. The continued and vexatious and foolish opposition to reform caused it, when conceded, to be a more comprehensive measure than when first proposed. He rejoiced in the folly of those who opposed reform, because they made that reform the more successful. So it was with the Catholic question, carried by the Noble Duke in 1829. That measure was ad vocated by Mr. Fox, Lords Grenville and Grey, and other distinguished patriots. Had their advice been attended to, would not the Roman Catholic question have yielded more satisfaction than it had done ? and there would have been none of these heartburnings which so many felt when it arrived. What did they do by resisting it? They stripped from the brows of meritorious patriots the laurels to which they were entitled, and they weaved them into a garland to put upon a single individual, whom they thus made the favourite of his countrymen, and identified him with their feelings.—( Hear, hear, and laughter from the Duke of Cumberland.) If he had attempted a joke it was probable he should not have ex. cited the laughter of the Illustrious Duke. Noble Lords made solemn declarations that they would never concede this measure. He had heard solemn declarations—a readiness, it was said, to sacrifice life and fortune sooner than submit to a measure of reform. Much stronger declarations were made against Catholic Emancipation, but all these declarations meant this, that they would not do any thing until next session. ( Hear, and laughter.) The Duke of WELLINGTON begged to call to the re collection of the House that a large portion of the landlords were payi ng th e whole amount of 10 0 per cent. He did not mean to say that all, but a large no w under the necessity of proportion of them, paid 100 per cent. Other landlords made a bargain to collect the tithes for 15 per cent. ; these now paid 85 per cent. as the amount of tithe composition. The Bill proposed that the rent-charg e should be 7-10ths; his Noble Friend behind him proposed that it should be 0 ;;;• cent. Now, he would . ask their Lordships, was not far t iipiposition, considering what . had been done uzorf++ell t, d that which had been in that a tstated the o ther Wolin even ucoPntteorntpileatiPortiP.Tt ing, thaF the amount it was a point aureocl tO last yP4r, THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, JULY 26, 1836. should be 72 per cent. ; but he begged to call to theft. Lord ships' minds, that hegave notice of a motion on the subject to be made in Committee. He had felt himself called on to offer these few words with a view to call their attention to the real subject before the House. The question was whether the amount should be 7- tOths or 3-4ths.—( Hear. ) Viscount MELBOURNE held to the opinion which he ex pressed in those former days—he held to the opinion which was expressed at those periods by his Noble Friends on his side of the House, with respect to the amount of the rent-charge. It certainly was not easy, by any particular arguments, to show why 22i- per cent., or 25 per cent., or even 30 per cent. was the proper sum on the present occasion.—( Hear, hear.) His Honourable and Learned Friend on the floor said he took 25 per cent. as a medium between 22 per cent. and 30 per cent.—( Hear, and a laugh.) It seemed to him that his Noble and Learned Friend rather clung to the extreme verge on the lowest side But he would press it on their Lordship's consideration, that this Bill came up from the other House of Parliament with the assent of that House, with the assent of the representatives of Ireland, and it offered terms on which this question could be settled.—( Cheers.) Was it worth their while, then, to disturb that settlement?—( Hear, hear.) Was it worth their while to make an alteration, which was, at least, of a somewhat doubtful character? He did not offer this remark with reference to the Parliamentary prac tice--(Hear, hear)—but because he felt that the alteration would have a tendency to unsettle this measure.—( Hear, hear.) There had been some laughter at the notion that the proposition was made with a view to the interests of the land lords of Ireland ; but their Lordships would recollect that the landlords were running some risk in mixing tithes with rent. The Noble and Learned Lord said that the liberal landlords did not desire so large a reduction. They talked very big in this House—they talked very liberally on this side the water on such subjects; but he knew perfectly well that some of the liberal landlords of Ireland—of the Protest ant landlords of that country, were not so ready to pay tithes on the other side of the water.—(Cheers.) There were pretty plain proofs of that. And those who were willing to pay tithes, were not unwilling to have a pretty large reduction of the rent-charge.--( Hear, hear.) With all the great love thus entertained for the Establishment—with all the devotion they entertained for their religion—with all the attachment they felt to the clergy of the Establishment—with all the liberality they were disposed to show the clergy, he did not believe there was one meeting that had been held by that party in which they had dared to put the question as to tithes in a single and distinct resolution.—(Cheers.) Those meetings had come under his observation, he had watched them, and he had seen that there were on such occasions plenty of attachment professed for the Church—plenty of at tachment professed for their religion—plenty of attachment professed for the Protestant clergy—but an attachment for tithes was never professed at any meeting of which he had witnessed the proceedings.—(Cheers.) He did not think that they dared to venture to put such a resolution at those meetings. The Noble and Learned Lord who made this motion said that the clergy of Ireland were in a better state at present than ever they had been in before, and that the energy and power of the law had super seded and supplied the deficiencies resulting from the supineness or indifference of the Government. These were strange things to put in opposition—it was surely strange to put in opposition the Government and the law.— ( Hear.) He had imagined that the Government never acted except by the law.—( Hear, hear.) And with respect to the situation in which the Noble and 'Learned Lord stated the clergy at present to be, it was proved by the Noble Duke that they received, owing to the defect in the law, their tithes from the landlord, but no progress was made in levying the tithes from the occupying tenants.—( Hear, hear.) As to the Tithe Composition Bill, and the compulsory commutation, it might take many years, he apprehended, before the tithes of Ireland could be put in that state that they could be recovered from the landlord.—( Hear, hear.) The question then was, whe ther, for the sake of this 5 per cent. or 6 per cent., it was worth while to disturb an arrangement which had been ac ceded to by the other House of Parliament, and which in all human probability would be satisfactory to the people of Ire land, and wholly settle the question. The Earl of WINCHIL SE A would ask why was it pro posed this year that five per cent. more should be taken from the clergy than it was proposed last year to take ? He had not heard a single argument in support of that proposition. There was no body of men who took so little of what they had a right as did the Protestant clergy of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) They did not take a fiftieth part of what they were entitled to as compared with the clergy of this country. The Irish clergy had suffered much persecution, which he laid to the charge of the Government, since it never would have happened if his Majesty's Ministers had enforced the laws. Were they, he would ask, to do an injustice now from an apprehension that a greater injnstice would be threatened next year.—(Hear.) He would say, let them do honestly, and fear nat.-4 Hear.) Lord WH A RNC LIFFE asked the Noble Viscount oppo site if he would venture to promise that this would be a final measure. His Majesty's Ministers had been told in another place, that it was not to be considered a final measure, that it never could be, that it was only a step to something else, an instalment of what they must expect to have paid in full here after. Had it not been said that there were other questions behind, other and more serious questions affecting Ireland, and to that it must come at last? The Marquis of LAN SD 0 WNE was free to confess that speaking for himself he did not consider this as the most im portant part of the present Bill. Yet, looking at it as a great national settlement, he regarded it as worthy their deepest consideration ; and with respect to its being a settlement, and to the opinions expressed by individuals referred to by the Noble Baron, he would ask what great question was there which had been carried to a successful issue, in the progress of which similar declarations had not been made by individuals engaged in their support ? If such declarations had been allowed to exercise an influence they would have marred and destroyed every great question in which the Noble Baron and himself had been engaged through the whole course of their Parliamentary lives.—( Hear.) What was the value of tithe property to the Church and to the tithe owner? They would find that it was not more, according to every calculation he had ever heard of, than 16 years' purchase. And he would tell the Noble Marquis on the bench opposite, that this was not the result of any expectation of the " extinction" of tithes a word with respect to which he might say a good deal, but he would refrain on the present occasion; but it was so under the most energetic government—under the most Orange go vernment—under the governments of the Irish Parliament, and of the English Parliament, subsequent to the Union-- under all these governments the Noble Marquis would find that tithes did not bring a greater value than 16 years' pur chase. Well, then, they propose to give to the tithe-payer the security of land, and they found that if the tithe -owner and the landowner of Ireland were to attempt to raise the amount of his estate in the form of mortgage to pay the value of the tithe, he would obtain that mortgage for the amount, according to the present rate, probably of 641., but certainly not less than 701. To illustrate his meaning, he would take it this way : Suppose the tithe were worth 1001., were to sell for 1,6001., which was what it would sell for at 16 year s ' pur chase ; the landlord could redeem this by raising 1,6001. on a mortgage, which he would get from any capitalist at four per cent or four and a half per cent., that being 64/. in the former case, and something more than 701. in the latter. Thus there would be given pro tanto a smaller sum, with the increased security, and a larger slim where the security was not so good. Let him not be told, then, that that was an arbitrary principle. The principle was this, that if for something insecure some thing more secure were given, there would be deducted the difference in value between this insecurity and that which was less uncertain. That was surely just. The calculation might not have been correctly made, but he did not perceive any fallacy in it. The Noble Lord concluded by earnestly recom mending the measure, observing that he was a landowner him self, and certainly it would not have his support, if he could see anything unfair or unjust in its principle. The Marquis of WE STMEATH said, in explanation, that he never intended to set tithe property above its r;.al value. Lord A LVANLE Y asked their Lordships whether there was the slightest hope that this amendment could be carried into effect, as long as they conscientiously entertained the opinion they now professed? Their Lordships then divided on the amendment ; the numbers were— Con tents Non Contents 126 48 Majority for the amendment 7B The clause, as amended, was then agreed to. Clauses 5,6, 7,8, 9, and 10 were then agreed to, with some verbal amendments. On clause 11, Lord L YNDHUR ST had to propose an amendment to this and the subsequent clauses, which related to one sub ject, viz. the opening of the composition. He thought the better course for him to take would be to give something of a history of the manner in which these compositions had been entered into, because it appeared to him that a bare know ledge of the circumstance would be a sufficient answer to the proposal to open the compositions so far as re lated to those which had taken place under Mr. Goulburn's Act; the re-opening- of the compositions entered into under Lord Stanley's Act he did not mean to oppose. The first Act was passed in 1824, and the second in 1832. His Lordship then went into a detailed dsscription of the pro Visions of Mr. Goulburn's Act, and contended that the parties who had en tered into compositions under that Act had every reason to believe they would be final. His objection was not only to the re-opening cf the compositions, but also to the tribunal by which the questions were to be decided. Under the Act of Mr. Goulburn and Lord Stanley, the parties who had to decide the questions were the Privy Council, who had power to refer the matter to the Judges of Assize. In the present Bill it was proposed that barristers should be sent down, at a cost of five guineas a day, and their travelling expenses; so that the wretched incumbent was to be threatened first with three barristers ; secondly, with all the costs of the proceedings ; and, thirdly, with the difficulty involved in consequence of the time that had elapsed, and of their having destroyed the vouchers which they ought to have to pro. duce. The result would be that they would feel they were at the mercy of the parties assailing them, and they would be glad to come to an arrangement upon any terms that might be proposed. He called on their Lordships to reject this clause, and all those clauses which related to the same subj,-ct. He proposed, as an amendment, that so far as it re lated to the compositions which took place under the former Act, not to re-open them, and as regarded the composition under Lord Stanley's Act, that they might be re-opened in cases of fraud or concealment —not, he repeated, by the revis ing barristers, but by the Privy Council, with power to refer the case to the judges of assize. The amendment having been put, Viscount MELBOURNE said, the clause in the present Bill was similar he believed to the clause in the former Bill presented to their Lordships. He must confess he had felt that this was the most ob t jectionable clause, in point of prin.. ciple, of any to be found in the Bill. He considered that it was a clauae which must rather be viewed as an exception, founded on special circumstances, than as one that could be said to stand on its own intrinsic merits. It had been repre sented to him, and on that information the clause had been framed, that whatever compositions had formerly been entered into, they were in fact extremely unequal, and in many cases extremely oppressive. It appeared to him that when they were contemplating a departure from principle, it was much more satisfactory to comprehend as many cases of redress as possible. He thought it better, then, that their Lordships should adopt the Bill, as brought up by the other House ; but, if the Noble and Learned Lord persisted in his amend ment, lie should not take the sense of the House upon the question. Lord CA RBE Y said that the tribunals before which ap peals were made ought to be local, otherwise great hardship and expense would be entailed upon parties. Lord PLUNKET had reason to know that the operation of Lord Stanley's Bill had produced great expense and incon venience to parties. Lord L YND HUR ST suggested that the Assistant- Bar risters might hear appeals, with an appeal from them to the Judge of Assize. Lord HATHERTON said the whole time of the Assis tant-Barristers was already fully occupied. His own opinion was, that appeals should be heard in the respective parishes, by what number of barristers might be settled upon a future occasion. This would be the most cheap and efficient way. Lord LYNDHURST thought that the Appeal Judges ought to be paid by Goverament. Lord HATHERTON said the effect of relieving parties from the costs of appeals would be to open every compensation case in Ireland. The Marquis of WESTMEATH suggested to the Noble and Learned Baron to postpone the further discussion as to the compensation of the appeal tribunal. Lord LYNDHURST was understood to assent to' the request. The other portions of the Noble and Learned Lord's amendments were then agreed to, and the following clauses up to 22 inclusive were struck out. Clauses 23 to 49, both inclusive, were then successively agreed to, with a few verbal amendments. Upon clause 50 (the appropriation clause) being read, Lord LYNDHURST said that the House, in arriving at this 50th clause, had got upon an entirely new subject.—( Op position cheers.) The forty-nine previous clauses had all closely related to the measure for the commutation of tithe in Ireland—a measure admitted on all hands to be most de sirable, and which was stated by the Noble Viscount, in the strongest terms, to be a measure most beneficial to Ireland, in being eminently calculated to effect the very important ob ject of securing to that country that peace and happiness, the absence of which had for so long a period been made the subject of general complaint. It would, therefore, be very na turally asked, why this measure—entire and perfect measure as it was—(Hear, hear, hear)—a measure unanimously as sented to by every Member of their Lordships' House, and all but unanimously assented to by the House of Commons— it was made a matter of very natural inquiry, why a measure in itself so perfect and so desirable, and so unanimously assented to by both Houses of Parliament, had not, long be fore this, been passed into a general law.—( Cheers.) A Noble and Learned Lord, a distinguished Member of the Govern ment, had exhorted Noble Lords on his (Lord Lyndhurst's) side of the House to pass this measure into a law ; and he (Lord Lyndhurst) would very earnestly reciprocate the same exhortation to the Noble and Learned Lord and his friends. —( Hear, hear.) The question was, then, what could be the reason why this so beneficial measure, this measure so warmly eulogised by all parties, had not been finally adopted by the Legislature?—( Hear, hear.) The answer was as ready as it was complete ; it was simply because his Majesty's Ministers had thought proper to engraft upon this desirable measure a proposition of a very different character, a proposition which had no natural or necessary connection whatever with it.-- ( Cheers.) Year after year the Noble Viscount had re proached those Members of the House with whom he (Lord Lyndhurst) had the honour to act, with rejecting a measure which lie described as so essential to Ireland ; but he (Lord Lyndhurst) would altogether deny that they had rejected it ; on the contrary, they had adopted the measure.—( Hear, hear.) In the last session of Parliament they had expressed themselves quite willing to consent to its being passed, but they then, as now, absolutely refused to consent to the other proposition engrafted upon it—a proposition so widely dif ferent from it—and this was the reason why the measure had not been passed into law.—( Hear, hear.) What was then reason of all this ? That reason had its origin in, and was fully borne out by, the fatal resolution which had been passed upon the principle involved in the House of Commons.— ( Hear, hear.) He was far from wishing to speak disrespect fully of any measure adopted by that body, but in reference to those who originated and framed, and carried through the measure of which he spoke, he must call to the recollection of the House the fact, not denied even by the party themselves, that they had acted together in recommending it to the House of Commons in the view and determination thereby to over turn the then Ministry, and to put themselves in office.— ( Hear, hear.) Of such a proceeding as this (looking to its object merely) lie would leave the House to judge ; all he would say of it was, that it did not appear to him to be a very laudable one.—( Opposition cheers.) But when he con sidered that the party in question must have known, at the time they were forming their plan and putting it into execu tion, the fearful consequences which were likely to result from it, and which, in fact, had resulted from it—the mischievous effects which it must infallibly produce, not only upon the pre sent but the future condition of the country—when he con sidered that this party must have been fully aware that in what they were doing they were acting against the best in terests of the country, that they were introducing a proposition which must infallibly become the grounds of serious discord between the two Houses of Parliament—(hear, hear, hear) — a proposition eminently calculated to form a bar to the pass ing- of that very measure which they themselves so loudly cried for as almost amounting to a panacea for the misfortunes of Ireland—when he considered all these circumstances, lie must at once fairly say that there were no terms of reprobation sufficient to mark his sense of the conduct of those who had been instrumental in bringing forward the proposition in ques tion.—( Loud Opposition cheers.) If any arguments were wanting to show the impropriety of this proposition, they were fully supplied by the circumstances to which he had adverted. At the time the resolution spoken of was passed, the state of the Irish Church was totally misunderstood.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The grossest, the most absurd exaggerations, had for a long time existed on the subject. It was unneces sary for him to advert in detail to the statements made in Dr. Doyle's often quoted letter ; the general summing up of that letter was, that the revenues of the Church of Ireland amounted to several millions sterling ; and that the Protestant population of that country, meaning that part of the Protestant population which conformed to the Established Church, was only 320,000.—( Hear, hear, hear, and laughter from the Op position benches.) This was one of the absurd exaggerations which were industriously circulated. Again, in 1834, a Mem ber of the House of Commons, a gentleman who had honoured the present Ministry with his support upon great occasions, but who, it was to be remarked, had within the last day or two exhibited some alarming symptoms of wavering—( A laugh)— a gentleman, moreover, who had no inexperienced head at figures—( A laugh)—he alluded to the Hon. Member for Middlesex—this gentleman, in 1834, actually stated to the House of Commons, as the result of sundry close calcula tions he had made, that the precise amount of the reve nues of the Irish Church was no less a sum than 3,300,0001. —( Hear, hear, hear, and a laugh.) Such being the exag gerations carefully set abroad, it was no great matter of surprise, certainly, that a very warm feeling upon the sub ject should have arisen. It was true, no doubt, that since that period, these statements had been subjected to the correction of facts ; and that, consequently, such repre sentations had been very considerably modified ; but what the House had to consider was, that at the time the mis chievous resolution in question was passed by the House of Commons, these misstatements were in full operation, and had given rise to the existence of a very general impression, that the revenues of the Irish Church, as compared with the members of that Church, were most extravagant and enor mous.—( Hear, hear.) It being now, however, made clearly apparent that these statements were gross exaggerations, that the revenues of the Irish Church were not more thin were necessary to provide for the care of the 900,000 souls under its charge, all common sense, all reason, loudly protested against the idea of longer adhering to a resolution, whose foundations were laid in the grossest misrepresentation of the real state of the Irish Church.—( Hear, hear.) Upon those grounds he confidently submitted to the Noble Viscount, that he was fully justified in throwing over, and entirely abandoning the principle involved; and he firmly trusted that the Noble Lord would never consent to sacrifice the best interests of the country for what might, in fact, now be looked upon as a mere punctilio.—( Hear, hear, hear.) There were other grounds for abandoning this prin ciple, which he would beg to submit to the Noble Viscount. The Noble Viscount had told the House on• a former night, and had told it, moreover, with great em phasis. that all his measures were his own ; that he suffered no dictation, no influence, no control, direct or indirect, to bias his conduct.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh from the Opposition Members.) This was a declaration which it had given him ( Lord Lyndhurst) great satisfaction to hear ; he had of course, never for a moment supposed that the Noble Viscount, upon any occasion, would permit direct dictation to be exercised towards him by any individual or any body of men ; but at the same time he must observe the House was pretty generally aware that there did exist an individual—an individual de scribed by the Noble and*Learned Lord opposite as the fa vourite of the country—( A laugh)—the House, he would repeat, well knew that there did exist an individual who at this point of tin - ie was placed in such a position as to be able either to uphold or to destroy the present Administration.--( Loud Opposition cries of " Hear")—by that individual's fiat must the Government stand or fall. Such being the case, such being the position of the Noble Viscount and his colleagues, trembling under the sword which hung suspended over their heads—the House might entertain some apprehension that— however decided the Noble Viscount might repel direct in terference —some indirect influence or control might, by pos sibility, be exercised upon the proceedings of the Government by the individual alluded to.—( Ilear, hear.) Our great dra matic poet had it, that—" While the lion fawns upon the lamb, the lamb will never cease to follow him."—( Loud laughter.) lie ( Lord Lyndhurst) was glad to find that such was not the case in the present instance, and that the Noble Viscount permitted neither direct nor indirect influence to control him. That being the case, he would earnestly ap peal to the sound and manly mind of the Noble Viscount, and beseech of him, looking at the situation of the country, and the evils which this principle, if adopted, would draw upon it, not to permit any idle fantasy on his part to stand in the way of the passing of a measure which all appeared to agree in looking upon as essential to the tranquillity of Ireland and the security of the empire.__( Hear, hear.) Not long since the Noble Viscount had been pleased to direct their attention to what he described to be the decreasing nwnber of their political friends in the House of Commons, exhorting them to adopt this as a test whereby to calculate the pro priety of the course they were pursuing. It was true that this solemn warning and advice on the part of the Noble Viscount proceeded from him in a moment of temporary ele vation and excitement—at a time when his party was up high, very high—as high as eighty-six—at almost movement height —( A laugh)—but it was equally true, that at the present moment the said party was down, down very low indeed— down as low as twenty-six, something below the freezing point.--( Renewed laughter.) The House would recollect, probably, that at the period when the resolution was first pro posed in the other House of Parliament, though it was pro posed by persons in Opposition, against whom of course all the influence and power of the Government in the House was arrayed, yet, nevertheless, that resolution was carried by a majority of thirty-seven or thirty-nine. Since then a year and a half had elapsed, during which time the present Go vernment had been in possession of all the power and influ ence incident to holding office, yet notwithstanding, at this moment, their majority in the other House had come down to twenty-six.—(Opposition cheers.) If, therefore, decreased numbers were to be taken as a warning for a change of policy, he would beg the Noble Viscount's serious attention to the lamentable fact just stated, and he hoped the Noble Viscount would take the counsel in the same good spirit with which he had so often condescended to proffer it to the acceptance of others.—(A laugh.) When the Noble Viscount recollected how the majority in question was composed, when he called to mind the statement he himself made that he had opposed to him the Church, the Universities, the landed interest, the gen try of the country, the meat majority of the Peers of the realm—when the Noble Viscount considered all these circum stances, he (Lord Lyndhurst) could not but think that the Noble Viscount would pause before he ventured to persevere in the course which he had hitherto pursued.—(Hear, hear.) What was the object of the measure? The object of the mea sure was, by a new arrangement of benefices in Ireland, by a new distribution of the incomes of the Church there, to squeeze, if possible, out of it some sort of surplus, to be ap propriated according to the provisions of the Act, The first question was whether, after allowing an ample and pro per provision for the Clergy. of the land, any such sur plus would remain ? This he was prepared to deny.— (Hear, hear.) The Noble Viscount had the other night, in a peceliar tone of voice, exclaimed, " Here, you, who have all along been wanting to find a surplus, here's one for you.—(Hear.) Now, as he Lord Lyndhurst) was quite sure that there was no man in that House more alive to the ridiculous side of things, as he felt as sure that the Noble Viscount in his own mind, at the very time of uttering this exclamation, must have utterly ridiculed and laughed to scorn the idea of the surplus he affected so to vaunt.—( Hear, hear.) By the Bill, it was proposed to reduce the number of benefices of Ireland from 1,385 to 1,250. Now, taking the whole ex tent of Ireland to be twenty millions of acres, this divided by 1,385, would give for each benefice nineteen square miles, and dividing the Protestant Established Church population of Ire land upon the same principle, this would give to each clergy man the care of 615 souls. Making these facts as the basis of his argument, he would contend that there were no grounds for diminishing the number of livings in Ireland. Then as to remuneration. Taking the number of livings stated 1,385, the balance, then, was 459,050/. This was the sum to be ap propriated to the parochial clergy of Ireland, and it included tithes, ministers' money, and the produce of glebe land, which was stated to be 86,000/. After making the allowance to the curates, according to the Act, of 1001. each, the result would be that there would be left for the rector or vicar of each be nefice 2741. The sum stated 'by the Noble Viscount, on a former occasion, of the amount which each rector or vicar would have was 295/., which exceeded the amount he (Lord Lyndhurst) had stated by 211. ; which, multiplied by the number of benefices, gave a deficiency of 26,000/. They knew what the state of the Irish Church was, and he was willing to take the statement respecting it as issued by the Government—and he believed that he should be able to satisfy the House that so far from any surplus arising, there would be a deficiency. He had already said that there was a sum of 459,050/., which was to be appropri ated to the clergy. The charge upon the fund, according to the statement of the Noble Viscount, was 361,938/. The Noble Viscount now made the to' al of the surplus 75,000/., but upon a former occasion, he said that it would amount to 97,612/. Ought they then to take this sum of 97,6121., ac cording to the items stated on the other side ? He believed, however, that he should at once satisfy the House that there were items which would completely destroy this surplus. There were the sinecure benefices, the income of which was stated to he 9,000/. and this would go to the diminution of the revenue of the Church. Again, there was the sale of ad vowsons, for which no provision was made, and the calculation was, that if there was a dimunition of done-half the present amount on each sale, it would cause a loss of not less than 25,000/. The glebe lands were 86,000/. According to the report of the Commissioners this would be reduced to 76,000/. ; here was a loss of 10,000/. Again, the charge of 27 per cent. charge for collection, would amount to 9,000/. The amount stated for each curate was 75/., therefore to make up the 100/., a charge of 251. would be made on each incum bent for each curate in his benefice. Then the tax on livings would amount to 20,000/. It had been said that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners could limit or increase this charge—they could not do so. It was quite idle therefore to say that the tax on livings should be omitted from the consideration of the subject. The items therefore which lie had stated, together with two or three others previously alluded to, would amount to 103,000/., and the surplus was only, when at the utmost, said to be 97,000/. Therefore he thought that he had clearly shown that the deficiency would be more than the alleged amount of surplus.—(Hear.) lie begged Noble Lords to recollect that a clergyman must be a man of education, brought up to a learned profession, who must live decently and dispense hospitality to those around him. It was necessary that he should be able to live in such a way as to obtain their respect of those amongst whom he re sided, and also to maintain and educate a family; and yet it was proposed to give him for this purpose an income of 100/. —( Cheers.) Was it the desire of the Noble and Learned Lord that a clergyman should be allowed only such a miserable pittance ?—( Hear, hear.) It was not more than any Noble Lord would allow to an upper servant.—(Cheers.) There were also 800 clergymen of parishes, rectors or vicars, who, under this Bill, were to receive a less income than 2001. Thus then two-thirds of the clergy were to have their incomes re duced below 2001.--( Hear, hear.) Was the House prepared to approve of this ? In this Bill you cut the income of cler gymen down to 100/. a year, in order to have a surplus. But the Bill was not to come into operation during the lives of the present incumbents; they must all die off before it could be brought into full effect. They screwed to the lowest point the income of every future incumbent in Ireland, but they could not get their promised surplus until all the present in cumbents were in their graves. So much for this part of the case ; and it appeared that the most important interests were to be risked by such a mischievous scheme as this.—(hear, hear.) But who were to modify—who were to cut and pare down livings to the scale in this Bill ? Why, a Committee of the Privy Council. The number was not limited, but it solely depended on the will or caprice of the Minister for the time being.--(Hear.) The members of this Committee were not to continue in office for a fixed time, or during good beha viour, but were to be removable at the will of the Government for the time being. There might be some security as long as the Noble Viscount at the head of the Government continued in office, but it was impossible for them to tell how long this might be. " Nature's copy is not eternal." They could not say who would succeed him.—( A laugh.) It was not pos sible for them to predict who would have the appointment of this Committee.—( Hear, hear.) Would Noble Lords place the clergy of Ireland at the mercy of those of whom they knew nothing, or of those who might be their ene mies ?—( Hear, hear.) He believed that if this was agreed to, some of the worst enemies of the Church might have the exercise of the controul he had alluded to.—( Hear, hear. ) They proposed to reduce the Church of Ireland to the very lowest ebb, but they did not stop here. The decision of this new tribunal, this Committee of the Privy Council, was to be taken on other matters—it was empowered to make arrange ments from time to time for re-modelling the Church when ever they pleased, and still further, they could cut down the incomes of rectors and vicars at their pleasure.— (Hear, hear.) . They had the power of re d uc i ng t h e i ncomes o f i ncu mbents of mere than 1001. whenever they th oug ht pro p er . They might reduce the income of the incumbent of 2001. to 150/. ; of 3001. to 2501. ; of 400/. to 350/. ; and so on. They would thus have the power of reducing the revenue of . the Church of Ireland upwards of 70,000/. a year more than was now stated.--( Hear, hear.) What the Noble Viscount said with blow b efore on the the House.menl respect to the measure of l a st y ea r, he (Lord Lyndhurst) would say with reference inflicting etothe such a measure He would be no party bers of the Church ; he would not give such a cause o f h ope or triumph to the enemies o f the Established Church, by re jecting such a measure as he trusted that House would pass.— ( Hear, hear.) But he might be told that he d i d not consent to the measure without rejecting some impor tant parts of th e Bill. But for what purpose had they been introduced int o it? for they had no necessary connection with it. For what pur pose, he asked? For the purpose of conciliating the agitators of Ireland.—( Cheers.) '1 ins was the op en l y avowe d o bj ect. Vain and idle hope.—(Cheer.) They have r ep ea t e dly t o ld you that they would not conciliate them, but that they would take it as an instalment..---( Hear, hear.) They have repeat edly told you that nothing w ou ld sat i sfy them but the com plete and total extinction of tithes, in whatever shape or form they existed.—(Loud cheers.) They have repeatedly told you that as long as the Established Church continued to exist, in whatever shape it mi g h t b e, that they would continue to ag it a te and distract the land.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore he contended that it was vain for the Noble Viscount to attempt to satisfy them by any such measure : it would only excite them the more to pursue the system they were now acting upon. lie had no objection to a large, a liberal, an ex tensive allowance of money bei ng t a k en f or t h e e d ucat i on o f the Irish people. Indeed he had given proof of this ; for when lie had the honour of being a member of his Majesty's late Government, he warmly supported the proposition for increasing the sum for the education of the Irish people from 35,000/. to 50,000/. He had no objection to make any grant which would effect this important object, and he was sure that that House would do everything in its power to attain that desirable result--namely, the moral and religious educa tion of the people. The Noble Viscount on a former occa sion stated that he was most anxious that a measure for the settlement of this question should pass whether he continued a Member of the Government or not. By adopting the clause he intended to propose, they would give effect to the wishes of the Noble Viscount, and as the Noble Viscount had made made use of such observations on the subject, he (Lord Lynd hurst) trusted that he (Lord Melbourne) would not oppose the adoption of the clause. The first object of his clause was to I reduce benefices above 500/. to that amount, and ttiat!:-ttit .--- ; :--- amount thus obtained should be devoted to the at!ritnetital`--.......1- : •.% tion of smaller benefices, provided the artiount-svas- - - -- Il ii t 1 .:.` ,, c raised above 3001. He intreated the House to niceil*r . " . .?' ''.- the measure thus altered and midified; and fortheir lie 4 n ...- , --.: \ es trotted the Noble Viscount, and h:s ass'ociates in .i46-1_ ~"... receive the measure in the same spirit in which he p ' OSTid.L - r3i the amendment. He never knew men in a Government t idOdr.-,"."- , -' in a situation more enviable than that in which they now stood 'JP', with respect to this measure —( Laughter from the Ministerial benches, and cheers from the Opposition.) H r meant whit he said in solemn seriousness; for he was satisfied that by accepting the measure with the alterations which he prJ posed they would do much to tranquillize Ireland, and they would pat an end to what had so long distracted the country. The Noble Viscount might live long and propose many measures, but nothing which he could do would ever surpass the good that he would effect by agreeing to the amendment then proposed. He should, therefore, prodose an amendment to clause 50, the terms of which he read from the table.—(Cheers.) The question was then put, that clause 50 stand part of the Bill. Viscount MELBOURNE said, that it was impossible for biro to accede to the request made, or to the course com mended with so much eloquence by the Noble and Learuel Lord. With respect also to the course recommended by his Noble Friend on the cross benches, he would say that instead of asking concession on the appropriation clause on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, that it would have been just as reasonable for the Noble Lord to ask the other party to concede. From the language just used by the Noble Lord he was in hopes that Noble Lords opposite were about to give up the opposition to the principle of appropriation, and to give to the country the full effect of this measure. They had also been urged in a very eloquent manner, by the Noble and Learned Lord, to give way on that side of the House and abandon the clause as it stood in the Bill. This advice no doubt might be very easily offered, but it would be equally reasonable and consistent to ask the Noble and Learned Lord to give way on his side. He begged to state, that these clauses could not be struck out of the Bill without without being fatal to its efficiency. The Noble and Learned Lord seemed to think that they could not continue these clauses in the Bill without its proving fatal to it, but that they might attain all that was required by Ministers by striking them out, and by substituting his amendment ; but for his (Lord Melbourne's) part, he would say that if they omitted these clauses, he would wash his hands of the Bill, and would not persist in the measure, which would be deprived of the princi ple to which, indeed, he was pledged, and which he deemed it necessary to make it effective for the purpose to which it was directed. The Noble and Learned Lord had taunted hint with some arguments he had used on a former occasion with respect to the increasing majority for Ministers in the House of Commons. The Noble and Learned Lord endeavoured to prove his (Lord Melbourne's) argument against himself, by stating that a falling off in the number of the majority might now be urged against him.—(Elcar, hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord did not attach much weight to this argument when it was applied against himself, and he (Lord Melbourne) did not see why it should have more effect when urged against him. He had on the occasion to which allusion had been made referred to the progressive increase in the number of the majority in the other House in favour of Ministers--namely, that it had gone on increasing from 7 or 10 to 86; but the Noble and Learned Lord had taunted him because the majority in favour of the appropria tion clauses in this Bill had declined from 37, which it was last year, to 26. Now this might be matter of accident—( Laughter from the Opposition, and hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches)—but whether it was so or not was immaterial— ( Hear)—but he would tell the Noble and Learned Lord that he (Lord Melbourne) and his colleagues stood on that prin ciple—they stood on the principle on which they had received the support of a majority of the other House—they stood on that to which they were pledged; and if they were not longer supported in the maintenance of that principle they were immediately ready to resign the office they held—(Hear, hear)—but they would not resign while they believed that they were supported by a majority of the other House of Parliament—and by a majority of the country.—(Cheers from the Ministerial side of the House, answered by cheers from the Opposition.) The Noble and Learned Lord had also adverted to another argument which he supposed he had used on a former occasion. He did not then admit what he had stated as a fact, but had made the admission for the sake of argument. He then said that he would admit that the bulk of the gentry were opposed to them, that the bulk of the clergy were decidedly opposed to the Administration, but that he would not go into any calculation as to the amount in number on each side ; but supposing this to be the case, he requested the Noble and Learned Lord not to rely too much on that circumstance, because, in fact, on looking back to the history of this country, it would appear that the bulk of the nobility and gentry had never opposed themselves to the general feeling and opinion of the country, but that they had been beaten in the - long run.—(Cheers, and laughter.) This was what he meant to state, and what he said with perfect sincerity, and from his anxiety to pre serve the Constitution and to promote the welfare of the country.—( Hear.) He could not help feeling that it was a sound and wholesome truth, and he had stated it without in tending to say any thing in the least degree insulting, or to hold out any thing like intimidation. He repeated, he con ceived it to be a wholesome truth, which he thought should be present in the minds of Noble Lords, and should be alive in the recollection of their Lordships.—( Cheers.) He had stated the general grounds on which he intended to rest with respect to the surplus. It would be impossible for him to go through all the figures to which the Noble and Learned Lord had adverted ; he had before him very long calculations in support of the view of the subject which he had taken in re gard to a surplus, and in accordance with the principles laid down in the present Bill. Fur his own part he firmly be lieved in the accuracy of these calculations. The Noble and Learned Lord said, when he (Lord Melbourne) stated that there would be a surplus on a former occasion, that it was perfectly evident from his manner of doing so that he was not sanguine in his belief that there would be a surplus. He owned that there was a considerable difficulty as to arriving at anything like an accurate estimate as to the amount, for it must obviously be very difficult to calculate accurately what would be the sum derived from such a variety of sources. As to whether the sum would be large or small, it might hap pen, as often happened in other calculations, that the sur plus which they calculated to am o u n t t o only a small sum might be of a large amount, and consequently much more than they e lad anticipated ; and it might happen, on the con trary, that a different result should be attained. It was only the general result that he meant to express ; but he could as sure Noble Lords that, as far as he was able to judge, if they acceded to the measure, and adopted the principle of appro priation as laid down in the present Bill, the peculiar effect which he had stated to the House would be produced.—( Hear, hear.) It was not his intention to make many observations in reply to the remarks or insinuations which had been thrown out as to the influence under which he was supposed to act. He had before alluded to this subject, and had directly contra dicted the various statements that had been made ; but he must again say, that if such influence as had been described was exercised with reference to the present Administration, he was utterly unconscious of it, and he did not know anything whatever of the existence of such controul ; and, of course, for that of which he was unconscious, or which was unknown, to him, he could not be held responsible. He would only state in reply that which he had repeated on a former occa sion, that the Noble and Learned Lord had given credit to a statement without credit or foundation. But the Noble and Learned Lord now said that the part of the measure before the House to which he objected had been adopted for the put pose of conciliating the agitator of Ireland. Lord LYNDHURST observed that he had said agitators. He had used the word in the plural sense. Viscount MELBOURNE—WeII, then, as for the concilia tion of agitators, he begged to deny the observation, as he for merly did, and to remark, as he had done when he had brought forward the proposition, that his object was to conciliate the w !tele country, and for the purpose of settling the question which the Noble and Learned Lord had himself said they should make any sacrifice to set at rest, which had so long dis tracted the country, and so long produced so much discord and i e s d e . i r — o e t g ( o a C f r dhimenegarast;h)ce l ea With de r an e , sT hi e lei c e t hh a t d o h es w o what dissension in that lio tsi v al l t e h g e e cl Noble would Lord fallhtaod l o' e c a s i e .a r i s a - a g t o o n n t t t o e clergy rn ake. o f A t h r tee rClalluding I t r o e t a h a e d hadc he ar at a c t t e e dr that they proposed to grant them incomes less in amount than the salaries which Noble Lords allowed to their upper servants. Was that, he would ask, the way to consider the question How many public functionaries were allowed but a small in come ? He could not help thinking this was one of the worst comparisons that could be adopted.---( Hear.) He believed that if the matter was carefully examined into, it would appear the the average amount proposed to be allowed to the Irish clergy was considerably superior to that made to the clergy iu Eng land. He believed this to be the case; and Noble Lords ought also further to recollect that Ireland was a country in which everything was much cheaper, P.' :e.l the scale of prices much lower than was the case in tt's country. He stood up to declare his adherence to the great decided principle of the Bill which he had adopteli and which lie had determined to abide by, and fro an adherence to which he could not depart, without a necessary sacrifice of his character and reputation, And the success of which, he firmly believed, would 1 beneficial to the country, and which he and his colleagues were determined to stand by.—( Loud cheers. ) Allusion had been made to a resolution on this subject which had been adopted in the other House, and it had been cen sured as highly reprehensible. He knew that the resolution had been adopted at the end of a long political contest, but ho contended, and he firmly believed it to b e t h e case, that the resolution was framed in milder language than such things generally were at the end of a political contest. If there was anything violent or indiscreet in the language of the resolution, it was as much owing to the pertinacity manifested by Noble Lords opposite in attachment to office as it was to the feeling of the party opposed to them.—( Cheers.) But lie was of opinion that the resolution in question was not in discreet—lie was of opinion that the resolution was not rash and violent, but that it was calculated to set the question at rest, on grounds which would be really satisfactory to the country. Therefore, not only in point of honour, but in point of feeling, in point of every regard which they could consider binding on themselves as public men, he and his colleagues felt bound to adhere to the principle and to the letter of the resolution ; and on these grounds lie should give his decided. negative to the proposition of the Noble and Learned Lord (Cheers.) The Earl of MANSFIELD could not concur in the principle, that because there was a small number of Peotes tants in a parish, therefore the church in that i par-sa Sleould be allowed to fall into decay. Even in parishes where there were only 25 Protestant parishioners he did not belie v e a minister of the Established Church would bo placed in vein. He cool