The Sun. — London, England, 1803-03-29 00:00:00

I 171 e•• - Motion at the destte of tilt Corninittee, distinetly - stated that he bid communicated . with Bever I MeMbers of Parliament upon the subjea. ,rsetr. T. GRENVILLE said he hoped the Noble. Lord would not press the Motion, hut that he would adopt :the advice given by the Right fron the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, and thereby relieve the House from the difficulty in which it was now placed. He was firmly convinced that if the present Motion was adopted, all hope of purity of Ele,aitn would be at an end Brit that was not all, he was afraid of putting this Motion upon the Journals, because then it would appear to posterity that in a Most serious ease like the Present, the 3 - . st question which the House considered, was merely whether the offender should be reprimanded, and then it would be urged as a precedent in all 'cases of a similar nature. The case had been so fully discussed, ,that he would not occupy the time of the House by making any further observations upon it. If any Gentleman felt any cifitibt upon the Subjeft, and requited any further information, there could be no ohjeflion . to the Minutes of the Committee being laid before the House. Lord EUSTON said, as the House seemed to be of opinion that his Motion ought. to be, withdrawn, be bad no objeCtion to withdraw it. • When the SPEAtEIi put the question for with. drawing the Motion, - several Members tibjs:Ct6d to it, and the discussion therefore proceeded. The CHANCELLON' of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Noble Lord had relieved his mind from one great difficulty, by stating that he was not instrufted by the Committee to make the Motion Which he had made to the House. The Motion was then put, and negatived without a division. The CHANCEL OR of the EXCHEQUER then moved; that so much of the Minutes .Of, the said Committee as 'related to. the sthirmoning of James `Trotter to appear as a Witness, be laid before that House. Mr. TIERNEY said; did not think that motion went far enough; he thought if dui) , were to call for the minutes of the evidence, they ought. to have all the' . evidence that related to the Prisoner, in order to know whether he wai or was not an important witness, because if they merely wanted to know that he had been summoned and did not attend, . the House was already in possessiou of that fa& by the report of the Committee. • Thi Th7n,. R. DUNI) /IS said,that if the Hon. Gen. tletnan's proposition was acceded to, he thought the whole of the evidence ought to be laid before the House, so' that they might , judge as well upon the evidence Which was gitien upon the one side as the other. (111% TIER NEY, in explanation, said, that no . thing could be turther from his intention than to tall for the whole evidence that was given before the i Committee, or to go at all into the merits of the decision of the Committee, which he was convinced was per e e al y proper ; h e o n ly wished for . so much . - Of the evidence as related to the coodua of Mr. • Trotter. 7 - h CH/INC ELLOR of tht EXCHEQUER said, that, it the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last but one was agreed to, it would tend to destroy all the advantages that resulted, from then Grenville Aft, and would lead the Huse to try over again the whole of thetase which had been de. cided by the ComMittee. He was disposed to ac. cede to the proposition made by the Hon. Gentle. man (Mr. Tt ERllayexcluding, however, all idea of going any 'further, or of referring to any thing, but that which immediately concerned the Prisoner; with this exception, he had no objeklion to the pro. clotlion of the further information which the Hon, Gentleman required. • • - . • Mr. TIERNEY then proposed to amend the 'Mtn_ lion Of the Cit 411 g ELLOR Or the EXCIIIiQUER . by tallingfor such parts of the minutes of the evidence of the said Committee, as related to the said James Trotter. . . The Motion being put on the ,Amendment, , . The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND rose to oppose the Motion : he contended, that the House could not have punished this person in time manner now proposed,' unless he had admitted the raft at the Bar of that House.: The question was not now, whether this man should be punished for dislmbeying the order of that House ; but the objeB of the present proceeding would •be to punish hint for an offence with which he was-not charged by the Ccmtnittee. but had been said, that this man had offered a bribe; o was that a crime of which he was accused ? And it would be contrary to every principle of jtistiee, to go into the examination < of a crime with which The man had never been accused, and against which he had never been heard in his defence.. If the Committee had . entertained any suspicions of the kind that h.. 1 now been thrown- out, they would haVe asked leave to adjourn their proceedings till the man could have been found and examined. Sip. pose it sh ou ld be stared in the minutes of the evi. dence, that tliis man did offer a bribe, would he be permitted to ether into his defence ? And it eel.. mainly would be unjust to punish hho without hear. ing what he 'mad to say in his defenc. On the • other hand, it would be irregular to enter into an examination of the whole Case, and to examine tvit. tinges to ascertain his innoceoie ; upon th.! whole, 1 . therefore, he was of opinion that the proceeding now proposed, could not he listened to for a turnout:. Af . r .. . HOBHOUSE spoke shortly in favour of tile= Motion, Lord GLENBERVIE said, he was decidedly of o pinion, that before She House proceeded to pass Any sentence Upon the Prisoner, they ought to be , in possession nor only of the fad of his contempt of the Order of the House, bit. they ought also to know , the degree of guilt that was imputable to him. In Calling for this further information, there was ter. vainly no kind of imputation upon the COMlTlittte, !ftause in apportioning the degree of punishtuent, i st would .be .necessary to ascertain the different I shades and degrees of guilt, This was analogous to the proceilings .in Courts of Law, in eases of lof misd emeanour ; 4 f ter a person was conviacil, the 1 1 4 dges when the Prisoner was brought up for judg. !tient, read over the whole of the evidence of the case, i n order that the Court might know whether there l!ere any circumstance of extenuation or ofaggrava. !um. H e a a m i lte d, t h at i t would be improper to 1 zotOire whether this man Legs been guilty of 44 Otilfr Main; Mit it teas rCrtalrlfy "TICC.CSiary ro ascertain the inotiVel which irfluenbcd his condut‘t, not as a substantive et lute, bot to ascertain tht de gree of his guilt upon this occasion, and to appor tion the punisluhent accordingly. Mr.' WM. DU D4S wished to know, whether,. if if should appear from the Minutes, that there was any imputation of bribery against this man; he would h av e an opportunity of being heard in his defenee. The CHANCELLOR cf. the EXCHEQUER said, he presumed there would be no ohjettion to the Minutes being read over to the Prisoner, and that he mighrbe permitted to offer any thingin- ex tenuation of his offence. Mr. SHERIDAN said, he did not think the Prisoner ought to be perthitted to go into a defence of the CriMe 'of which he was already Convided.e— The evidence that was called for, was not evidence in aggravation, but merely to know whether the offence proceeded from ignorance or from wilfulness. If it should appear that this man sees a poor, igno rant Country Ferrntr, unconnected with the busi. ness of the Election, it certainly , would have great weight in the sentence which the House would pais.; On the• other hand, if this man was an adive agent in the eledion, if he was an adive agent for ! purposes of corruption,. it was certainly right that the House should be acquainted with the fad. He • did not mean to' impute any thing to the prisoner ; he was merely putting possible cases, io shew that. the House ought to have the fullest informationehat the nature of the case would allow. It was with this view that he wished to have the minutes of the Committee laid befete the House, as far as they re lated to the prisoner. As to calling for the minutes to shew that he had disobeyed the order, of that Howe, it certainly was unnecessary., because the House had emple information upon that subjed in the Report of the 0)1111a:tee. Mr. T7ERNEY said, that the real objed of the present Motion was to keow to what extent this man was to be punielted. The Noble Lord ! (EtesToe) thought the proper punishment would be Ito reprimand him at the Bar : other Gentlemen 'thought such a . pu . nishment by no means adequate to the offence he had committed. In order therefore 'to decide between these two opinions, it would he necessary to have SO much of the evidence laid be fore them as related tb the cenduel of Mr. Trotter. It had been urged that it would ,be a great hardship to have those Minutes laid before. the House, because the Prisoner would not have an opportunity of being heard ; but, for his own part, he knew no term of that House, which prevented him from being heard at the bar in mitigation cf his puoishment. The case of Morris in 5796, was Completely a precedent for the conduct of the House on this occasion, A nd. on that nocasion the House did go into examination of rite tmitives which influenced his entitled in order to determine what degree of punishment they should inflid upon him. If the present proposition tended in any manner to impair the area of the Grenville Ad, he certainly would not be a party to it, bnt be saw no ground for such an assertion, and there foie he trusted the House would concor with him in thinking that the Minutes now called for ought to be granted. • Mr. IIRAGGE observed, that ttte.way to judge of the allegations made aeainst the Prisoner, wa s to have the Minutes of the Committee laid befare the House ; 'and• if there were on the face of these. Minutes any thing which gave a calouring' to the conduCt of this. Man, he could net, as a Member of. the House, refuse his assent to to t he pro. priety 'of .not hearing this matter in aggravation, be saw no objedion ui it, for the whole of it was matter of aggravation ;—would . it not he aggrava, boil if it should appear that this man was Agent to any of the Parties, or conneded with any of the Parties ?' Most undoubtedlyejt would be matter of aggravation, and such as the House ought. to con. Sider.—All , that the House knew at present teas, that he was here in the custody of the Of:leer of the House, 'and that his name was James Trot ter-- That he had been served with 'the Warraet of the EAKEIc of that Hottee i , and that he had 4isobeyed the injunctions of that Warrants and. that a Cam. mittee of the House had reported him to hive been wiltully absent, and that he confessed his guilt : that was ell the House kteew of him, and therefore further information was necessary, r in order to the proper understanding of the case ; and if that information led to the aggravation of the case, that was not matter to prevent the House from consi.. dering iteeseßut although this course appeared to be. just, yet he must (Other observe, that this was not all which justice,required to'be done, for the Boise • must then hear what the Prisoner had to say in his own behalf.—That ,the House had done already On the case as it now stood; of course, ifehe Prisoner was to be charged with something mare, he ought to be heard again, fur that was no more than a common rule of justice ; and this obviated, perhape, the whole objection which had hitherto been sweet against the course which was now proposed,---It was true that the Prisoner could not call eeidence,' but he. must admit tile truth 'of the case exhibited against him ; the Ileuse, however, would ,heee him with indulgence, and give him the full benefit of whatever he.could reasonably urge in his own behalf, and the more sus, because he coUld not offer any evidence but that was a situation, hoWever hard, it must be remembered, he had brought upon himself; for had he appeared in, time, as it was his duty he would have avoided ell this inconveni. ence, Upon. the ground t h at the whole of the evi. dence ought to be laid befare the House, in'order that it might be fully acquainted with the i;eiure of the case, Vl4ll at present it was not, he concurred in the Motion new before the House. Arr. lIERIDAN explained.—He did not allude to the Minutes of the Committee as matter of ;lg. gNifotiott on the general nthconduet of the Pri. honer, hut merely as it related to the wilfulness of his absente,, after he was served with the .sTc:titer's W a i tai f t to a ttend.--Tie gliolight, however, that the I louse could not sutler this person to enter tpon oath to eontradid what appe.tred against him betore the Committee. Mr LORD ADrOCATE of SCOTLAND ex plained, and said; that all he contended was, that this was an ex paste proceeding, :m l might possibly area smile persons who aught mit to be afretted by it ; it rnight to suiu degree aff,..cl the `sitting Meat.. to rills matter referred, and that, aootrhen , ie,', not be regular: be NA NERAL said, he couhl not undersiand the iiistintlion which sortie Gentlemen seemed to take in this case—that they wou:d nut teeek.e any thing ',that went in aggravation of punishment, but they would receive that which would aggravate tit& tolour of guilt. Now, whether man VII jllllll y abgented himself, or was absent from ignorance, was a qUestion of colour to the'off'ence, and to allow evidence of the colour of the offence, was allowing evidence of the aggravation of the offerer ; and he cimid see how any . aggravation of guilt could be received in evidence without tog after it, as a necessity consequence, an aggra vation of punishmetit. Whether the House should think that the Prisoner, who bail once an Opportu. :thy of explaining his condu4 by evidence, lint which he had lost, either by his own negligence or wilfulness, should now have that' opportunity re, stated to him, was a consideration for the House; perhaps he was not now entitled to any such indul , gence, nor was it easy to see how the forms of the House would admit it, sunosing such a thing was desirable, which he was out saying it eras; this . was not the time for discussing that point, but he should thick that if the Minutes, ,after they were laid be. fore the House, should Call for a. larger punishment than the !louse shirold be disposed - in its justice to infliiff upon the present statement of the case; then he should think the matter deservekto be consider. ed ; for they should not punish a man foe ‘vhat he• did not know the Ho9se were going to punish him, but that the l !owe should at least allow the Prisoner to give whatever favourable colour he was able to any thing that was ohjalcd to him. That perhaps would be the course w hich the House 'would adopt in this case. The question was then put, " That so much of the Aflinutei of the Evidence given before the Dun_ fermline Commit tze as relates to James Trotter, la: laid before this i100,e," riLich was ordered. L'NION. The C HANCE the EXCHEQUER said, that pursuant to ..:he notice he gave bn a huffier day, he. now lose to-move, That a Committee ...be ap poitited to inquire itito the 7th Arrick u the A,!t of Union, and,thetefia he shuuld . tthw de,lie, that that Article he react—which was entervti as read. The citAKcvi.t.oit of the F.:cetixqug it said, th,it as it was Of grt:l i;l:, , ortanee that the meaning of this Article should he understood, and strict. ly acid vorreCtly carried into eiced, he begged leave to move; " 'fliara - Conialittve be appointed to it:. quire into the joint Expenditure of the United Kingdom from the first , of J.inuary, 'Sot, to the first of January', 1 Bo3;a;md the Sutris contributed to the State by• Great Britain and Ireland respec. tively, and to report the. same, with their opinion thereupon, to the 1 Inuse."—Ordered. The Committee was then immediately nominated. The Loan MAYOR of LONDON said, that the Motion of which,he had given notice for this day, he should defer until after the Holidays. SALT. Gen e ral gASCOYN4 rose, for the purpose, he sa id,' o f inoving, pursuant to notice, for leave to bring in a Bill to equalize by weight the Bushel all Salt imported into that part of the. United King. don), called ,Ireland. He entered muChatlarge into • the History of the P.:!gulatiott Of this Article from the Statute of the 4.th of Anoe, C. i 4, down to the present moment, and observed that his objet was, i n po i nt of fact, to lower the Duty Upon English Salt 'imported mro Ircloid, by equalizing the Duty upon all Salt imported into that Country—ohat was the area of his' otion. At:present all Salt im. ported into Ireland liore a certaiu Duty per Bushel, b ut t h em wa s, however, an essen:ial difference in the Duty of the diffctent i,orts of Salt imported it- to Ireland, and that difference prose from the difference Of quantity which the, Bushels contained, .The s a l t which.was impoited into Ireland from Portugal and Spain, which was commonly called Bay Slit, con. tamed 8 4.1 . 0un 1i weight in the Bushel ; whereas the Salt which, was imported from this Country into Ireland contained ,no more than 5G pounds weight to the Bushel, and yet- the Duty Was the same on b ot h ; his v bj e a WAN to make the duties equal in each, and he argind upoO the polii:•-v of so doing, Etc s aid : i t •wonia ww,rthe.prize of English Salt itt Itelatid, which was a very great olqed, aud which the People Of that Country would receive as a great boon. He reminded the CtrANc EfLoit, of the EC.firc,r..TEit of England of his promi s e to diminish the Duty 'tiro,. Salt soon after he came into dice, and observed that it was a promise williCh was received with great joy oil over the Country here and in Ireland ; he maintained it was politic to do so, on accemit of the itOportance of- this at tick to various iiranrhes of our Menu fadures and. Trades in. the curing of: Provisions, Ste. and most par!iculatly to the Trada of Ire land ; and be maintained, that if the objed Of his 'Motion was ‘cartied into effed, the defalcation which it wlitild occasion in the Revenue would not, be more than 1„,topool. a year, a Sam which the fertility of the mind of the CRAM:W.OR of t he Exo H equeß would too easily supply to make this an objeCtion to the •Motion,— ! -He was now `only* asking, that British Salt should no t he ma d e to pay more on its, being imported into Ireland than Spanish Salt paid '; that we should in this reaped be put epan a footing with the most f a . voured natioo. Ile to 'iintatn,4l: that. Bay Salt had been considered, cvcr once the Ad of Parliament, as White `Salt, and there shOuld be no distiodion in the Duty ;---whereas at present the Bushel of Bay Salt, which eonwined 84 pounds weight, and which came from !,-;,‘aio, paid no more, -Duty than the. British Salt, I contained only 54 pounds , weight in the Bushel ; he wished to klo away this distiqtion, lty whielt he -HIM mach more .Bri. tisli Salt would he imported into Ireland , than thete had been of late ; anti he complained that this part of our Tratte, p3rticularly at Liverpool, had greatly fallen off within the last three years. He complained also of the effed of Smuggling ; he said this .measure wound lower the, price..of that article in Ireland, and be of great advantage to the lower classes in Ireland, for they paid the same Duty on that article as the higher classes,' and consumed more in proportion to their wants, .40ittlie they subsisted tuote on salt provisions , • {'; man .cite nigher daises: lie easy nn relsnO _ continuing tit! present buty_ oft 13alt ed into Ireland fro:n Spain, ah n favour t,. Spiin, for Spain, wait no Ally of our,, and was, not unlikely soon iri bet't)tne .an and in the present state of ,things might fitly ri t ou4h be called our natural Enemy:. He argued at sonic length on the propriety of what he was abOtit to propose, on the good of - ed which he said it uou.ti produce td Trade, both in Englund „and Ireland, which would i;e much more than a balance for the defalcation it toc.mlti create in life Reverne : observed, that whet. the irist Duty was lait t , nu, the late CiI4NCELLOR of the EXCH EUER ha.; ia:netu. ed the necessity of it, and had votrsicieted it nierely . as a War Tax. Ile considered, the present Chtl;st: CELLOR of the Exetirctuttt - as pledged in Berne measure,to assent to the Motion he proposed, fiont his former promise, and ftom every principle ni pis_ licy as .well as liberality to the People .of Ireland, Who labeured under some difficulties which this ;Motion was intetaled . c. remove. Ile then moved, " That leave be given to bring in .1 Lill to qua. lize by weight the Bushel of all Salt ; , nrortecl .to that part of the United Kingdom called Irdattd." The SPEAKER observed, that as this was a mat., ter relating , to Trade, _it was necessary that it should be referred to a Committee of the whole % House, before any further proceeding could be had on the Motion.—The Motinti , being seconded, It was then moved,. That the said ,Motion referred to a Committee of the whole Flonw. Mr. CO R RY took it very comprehensive view of the subjeet, he explained the regulation of the statute of Queen Ann, and the distindioo o, teen the bushel under that ht.liiite, which Contained only . the weight of 56 pounds of . salt, and that of the Winchester bushel, which Contained S 4 pounds weight, in the reign of Icing Charles the Second, and gave an historical account of the duties upon this article until they were made perpetual, araf observed, that. there had been no innovation in Ireland npon this subjfd, but it was imposed ..here as it was in England. He explained the whole, custom in the way of importing this article; atid observed, that in Ireland, all Bay Salt was entered as White Salt ; and it was the same in this Couna try, it paid nevertheless duty only on 8+ pounds weight to the Bushel. He explained the dOl'arence in the disposal .of this article between the Customs and the Excise and then procoeded to observe, that the Hon. Gentleman had stetted, that the •ex. port of salt from Liverpool to Ireland had of late diminished, and he seemed to wish to diminish the importation of Foreign Salt into Ireland, for the purpose ,ofinereasing the importation of British Salt there ; that seemed to be the object of the Hon. Gentleman by .the Motion now before the House—lt was to discourage the importation of Fu. reign Salt, for the purpose of encouraging that of British manufadure, for Om demand for. the one must increase in proportion to .the diminution of the other. Now, upon this stihjed he :must be permitted to observe, that Bat'. Salt was nut Only bf a remarkably strong quality, but it •was such as Was indispensable to the Provision 'trade of ire. land ; and, therefore, as long as the Pro v isi t on Trade. of Ireland remained air at this time, the mode now proppsed by the Gentleman would not answerthe purpose for Which he intended his ()Ned •was, to • itierease Trade, hut the mode proposed would sliminkh it, because it ivuuM diminish the importation of Bay Salt, and 'lilt aid. die was aftually necessary in many manuladiures, anti in the Provision ,Trade it was anually.hidi!.. pcnsable—Bay Salt was very dißreiat in quality from other Salt ; it was ofa grain much larger, and Of a quality much stronger, and less` easily solved-OM any other Salt ; it was therefore ptcoa liarly fit for packing in the Provision Trade, and excellently adapted tut provisions for His Majesty's Navy and; Army it was superior to any other Salt fur curing provisionsatlesi 'toed to hot ilimates i and hail therefore Leen employed the service of this Couotry iii every part of the world. It was well known that Ireland depended Mitch on its ProvisiOn Trade-,' and this was owing in 'some degree to the quality of the flesh of that Coun. try, hut still more ro the quality of the 'Bay Silt they used in curing it, and if that S It was nut used, the quality, of the cured provisions would be gready deteriorated, which most soon produce a decay tit Trade, by which Ireland would lose her ore.emi.. ncticeoin this particular, • as . will as in some other articles of roanufaeture, for it would lose its charader in the ,foreign market ; but lie appre hended he bad stated 'enough, when he said that the Provision Trade of Ireland was esseotinl to the suppor t of ,Flis Majesty's Fleets ;.ht Armies ; but that was not all : 'There were no Salt • Springa in 'lreland, nor had they there the means ultuAnut4auring Salto...a-They Were in-deb:tit to this "Country for two very inatCri;if'srticlo.. , .. Roelt Salt and Coals ; and, even if they could ma. nufacture the article, there Was much consideration due tn. the expellee which would attend it in Ire. land under its disadVantages for freight, co nails. 7 Sinn, Aud a great' many charges on the carrhloc of Coalto and other articles which must be from this .Country before they could inanuf.,,:ti rc Rock Salt :. so that any measure tending (atol c ola measure evidently and avowedly tended) to doutohh the importation of Eay or Foreign SAir, wooLf certainly be injurious to . the Trade, of Irelatal.— There had been no comphints between the Nrtiiii amid the Irish Ma'nutanurers upon this siihjeA, C:e trade hod been carried on without any difiioolty in this resped ; and such had been the I +ol4 of Ira. land, that they had. alWays used much Foreign Salt—they had always been obliged to preier Fo reign Salt, because., as he .dart said :already, the a r. ticic of provision required it. •Now it might he said, that to lower the price of other S;dt, sso u not be injurious to the manufaclotes of Ire!.ind general ; that was a sentence which sounded woi, hut it was not too lightly to be assume ti It con. venienCies might tallow this, although they wet; not obvious to every onto—al'his might be art dUC:MCnt tci manufaduters to lase the cheapest ;Mi. cies in curing their prOvisions and in oti;cl - n4.11;u. ratturrs, and which would nor so well Wilt t er the purpose, the provisioos would neither so \t'ell sup ply His Majesty's Fleets and Armies as ,they tor., nicely did,-a-a very important consideration at do sr and :vortical:4y at the ptcbcl4 time, whcrt.