The Sun. — London, England, 1839-08-03 00:00:00

ENTBNING EDITION. to alarm the peaceable inhabitants of the districts in the neighbourhood of which these meeting had been held. A proclamation was issued by her Majesty, de claring such meetings illegal, and the authorities were desired to be vigilant in their suppression. They were immediately discontinued, as those who held them had no means of resisting the enforcement of these direc tions. Other meetings, accompanied with circum stances of terror and alarm, were held in various populous places in different parts of the coun try. For a time these meetings also had been suppressed by, means of proclamations and by orders issued to the Lords Lieutenant and Magistrates of the County to put the law in force. For a time the spirit of agitation seemed to have subsided, but at the same time those who had been leaders in this movement and the broachers of these doctrines, became exceedingly active and industrious, and lost no opportunity in dis seminating their 1 opinions, and suited their doc trines with considerable art to the circumstances of the different parts of the country in which they held their meetings. In agrtcultural parts of the country, where although they had not been very successful, they had yet met oseasionally with some little encouragement, they taught the labourer that he was emitted to an equal partition of property, and that all the land in the coun try ought to be divided equally among all the labourers. In the manufacturing districts they declared with equal violence against the manufacturers and large proprietors, These proceedings were certainly not unexampled in the history of this country. At various periods similar agitation had been excited among the working classes. It had always appeared to him that in similar circum stances it was inadvisable to make any sudden change in the laws, and to make on that account what were called in some countries Laws of Exception. These always produced two bad effects. In the first place, they excited the sympathy of those persons who would not otherwise be disposed to have any feel ing in common with those persons ; and, in the next place, the people of this country were disposed to allow the power of the laws, and were ready to yield it obedi ence ; yet if a law were made for the occasion, and intended for the suppression of their own parti cular society, they would not feel that they had been treated with the same fairness as if the laws of the country had been brought to bear upon them. While he had always held these opinions he thought there was a power in the ordinary law of the country that might be exerted to put down such mischievous projects. The experience that he had had taught him that although the laws were sufficiently strong yet there was a great difficulty in putting these laws into effect and operation ; in proof of that he would advert to an , instance with regard to which many observations had been made.—(Hear, hear.) He alluded to the violent speeches which had been made on various occasions. Every one must see in the newspapers that the strong est- language had been used, and the strongest excite ment to rebellion and crime had taken place. The natural observation on such language was that it was seditious, if not treasonable ; but the obtaining of evidence of the use of such language was not so easy as was imagined. They could not call upon the Re porters to give evidence of the language they reported, they were there upon sufferance, and could not be called upon to give information, without there was original evidence, which they • could corro borate. Another instance of difficulty was. that when persons gate information, and the mo ment proceedings were instituted they became objects of persecution in the neighbourhood in which they re sided, and their lives were rendered unhappy by being driven by this violence from that part of the country. In some instances they had been maltreated, especially in Lancashire. It might be that good evidence might be given by strangers. Certainly strangers might be sent to these meetings which professed to be open ones, but if they were, those who called them would take care to watch any person whom they conceived to be against their own way of think ing, and either by force or annoyance would drive them away. But when the evidence was procured, then came the question whether that evidence was sufficient to make out to the satisfaction of a Jury what had taken place, so that a verdict might be obtained. With respect to several of these speeches of a most violent nature, the law officers of the Crown had advised him, no doubt correctly, that although the proceedings were illegal, yet that there was no likeli hood of a verdict being obtained in a Court of Justice. Such was the difficulty of putting in force the laws against these seditious meetings. The consequence was that these meetings had continued, and with respect to some of them the persons had been committed for the offences they had committed at those meetings. He would not advert more to that subject because they would shortly come under the decision of the Courts of Law. He had stated already that proceedings had keen instituted, but notwithstanding that no stop std been put to the various meetings that had taken place. So far from their having subsided, owing to the circumstances that had , taken place at Birmingham, there had been a great in crease of the excitement and violence. Various means I lied been adopted by those who were dissatisfied with 1 she law to excite terror. They had done every thing ( i s their power to make an appearance of force, I a and to induce the great majority opposed to them to be quiescent, and allow them to carry their plans into effect without resistance. Various modes had been adopted for that purpose : one was the ostentatious ex hibition of arms, pikes, daggers, and dangerous weapons. Although these appearances were exag gerated, there was no doubt a considerable number iof pikes manufactured, and a great proportion of fire-arms in connection with the Chartists. For the contribution of a shilling or a sixpence they gave certificates which lasted for a certain time, say for a few weeks, or a month. That was entirely contrary to the law, and very properly the Magistrates, in seve ral places, had arrested the individuals so acting. But on the other hand, contributions had been made by parties who were afraid to come forward and give evidence that such contributions had been forced from them by terror or compulsion. In other places training and drilling had taken place, and one mode which they had adopted within this last fortnight, in order to show their strength, was to go in great numbers to the parish church where they displaced the usual occupants of the pews, but without interrupting divine service—they went merely in order to show that they were in considerable numbers. A stilt more dangerous symptom had appeared within these last few days. Formerly there were great differences amongst them— there was a great want of concert between individuals, belonging to those Societies ; but of late they had had shown a more regular organization. 'They had now Societies in connection with one another in small numbers, who selected one from their own body ; and from those selected, a committee of 5 or 7 were appointed to meet in London, and who were to direct the wieole body. Combined with all this, there was the body called the General Convention, which met for the avowed purpose of preparipg and presenting a petition to that House. But since that petition had been presented and decided upon by the House they had met several times, they had issued addresses and placards to the public, evidently intended to produce an alteration in the Constitution and the law, by combination, violence, and terror. Whether it assumed the form or name of a sacred month, whether it was calling upon the people to arm or take their money from the Savings' Banks, it was perfectly apparent that the general object was, by means of terror and confusion, to create a change in the laws governing society. All these things betokened very considerable danger, and he would take that op portunity of stating in what that danger consisted. It did not consist, as far as he saw, in any grievance which might be in the power of Parliament to redress. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny no doubt would tell them there was some grievance, by the redress of which they could give satisfaction to the masses and put an end to the present disturbed state of the country. His (Lord John Russelrs):opinion was, that from their own statements, there was- no remedy which that House could give which would remove their supposed griev ances. Their complaints ib all their placards and speeches are not against the laws, but against the con stitution of society.—(Cheers.) They complain that as society is constituted they have not a sufficient quan tity of the wealth, the means, and the resources of society, and they demand a change of the laws, a new state of society, by which their happiness may be in creased. His opinion was that there was no law which the y could pass which Ix ou lct tend toimprove the condition of the working classes according to their own wishes. He was then speakingea not of any single change in the law, but he Was s peaking of a tota l c h ange i n soc i ety i n y. andhisopinion was , th at any suc h v i o l en t increase change would only distress, and add to the num -1 ber of the distressed wouldand while they destroyed the means of the rich, they.at the same time destroy the welfare and comfort o th e that any success of theirs He fully believed wo u u e r lAl p e o n o o n r ly increase their own grievances and their own b thing by which the working classes could hope to live If there was any in comfort, it would be in cons e qu e nce of f ice of large funds being devoted to the employ labour, owing to the general confidence felt in the security the insti yGovvhich had insti tutions of the State, and that civilizati on or distru st long grown up under the stability of a free --(Cheers.) The first effect of any doubt as to the stability of these institutions—of any aust weaken ing the title to property—of any dissolving of the con dence that men had in the security of their capital-- either in manufactures or commerce, or land —the first effect of that would be, not so much to injure those who had large fortunes, the greater proportio n o f which perhaps they could remove, but to injure such as were dependent upon the capital devoted to the employment of labour.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Next, it appeared that the danger arose not from any general Opinion or conviction of the people at large, but it was only the attempt of a small minority—and it was only endeavouring to terrify and create alarm in the minds of the rest, that any of those who were really attached to the institutions of the country, and to quiet, security, and peace, at all joined in these proceedings. — (Hear, hear.) Now first, the object must be to give satisfaction to those who had real cause for discontent ; and secondly, to give, by all means possible, security and confidence to the great mass of the people who did not sympathise in these attempts at disturbance.—(Hear, hear.) It was desirable to avoid, as long as possible, and as much as possible the introduction of new laws.— (Hear, hear.) But while our laws were well adapted as a whole for the maintenance of freedom and for the pre servation of tranquillity—the means of public instruction bad not kept pace with the increase of the popula tion, and that in many districts, especially the ma facturing, there were large masses who had grown up in a state of society, that was lamentable, if not appal ling, to contemplate.—(Hear, hear.) It was not a society growing up with its usual forbearance—with its places of worship—with its persons of property leading the way in every social and charitable object—with its fair and gradual subordination of ranks—but it was, in many instances, a society nearly all composed of working classes, with certain persons with whom they had little connection in rank or subordination, and unhappily neither receiving in schools or at places of worship that religious and moral instruction which was necessary for knitting together the inhabitants and classes of a great country. It was with respect to those classes of society that he should say they differed from the former consti tution of English society, that means were ne cessary to preserve them from sudden excitement, and that while the House ought, by every means possible, to take measures which in future might bring them more within the confines and boundaries in which society was generally conducted, they should provide that by no sudden outbreak might property be en dangered, and that society should not even in its re motest fibre, feel the consequences of that alarm. The object of one measure be had proposed was, that in future they should endeavour to have a better means of taking care that the laws were preserved by placing at the disposal of the Magistrates a better organized constabulary force. There had been within these few days cases in which the Magistrates had been obliged to meet the dangers which they had to encounter, and had only been enabled to meet them, first, by having such a constabulary force, and, secondly, by the military support they had received. He had in: his hand statements which he had received only that morning with regard to certain occurrences that had taken place- He would give the substance of the correspondence that had taken place during the last three months, but which it would be exceedingly irksome to give in detail. He had received a private letter from Stockport, stating what had occurred there. The writer stated, that about two o'clock -yester day he had received an application from two Magistrates ; that at twelve o'clock last night he bad received a requisition for a company to prevent the rescue of a case of arms, which had just arrived at the coach office. A number of pikes and daggers were seized, but the crowd attempted to rescue, and it was not improbable that some attempt would be made to regain the arms and set the men at liberty who had been apprehended. The Mayor of Newcastle, in allu sion to some disturbances which had taken place there, when the mob marched into that town, stated that the police seized some of the banners and apprehended some of the men—that the dragoons dispersed the mob and cleared the ground, and that there was a general wish on the part of the special constables to be armed and trained as a Rifle Corps. These documents showed that when they had con stables who were ready to do their duty, and when they were supported by a sufficient military force, there need be no apprehension. He was persuaded that the inhabitants of the various towns looked for protection from the Government, and the law of the land—( Hear, hear)—and the Government were bound to support them while they were pursuing their peaceful avocations. If they were so supported, these attempts, which had been made by persons of the very worst character, would totally fail of their effect. He felt confident that the laws of this country, although in many cases it might be difficult to put them in force, were sufficient to preserve the tranquillity of the country, and that these tumults would pass away. But when he was asked for a military force in the present insufficient state of the constabulary force of the countr,y he felt it necessary to ask the House to give the increase that was required. He asked them therefore in support of the laws, in support of the institutions of the country, to increase our military force even at this late period of the Session, and he felt confident that the House of Commons would respond to the appeal of the Govern ment on the subject. At all events,.he felt that even if it were necessary to introduce any extraordinary laws, or to subject themselves to any imputation on the grounds of taking extraordinary powers in the present state of the country, they were hound by every means to maintain the state of tranquillity in this country — to maintain the state of society which now existed—to maintain the Institutions of the country. They ought not to allow them to be overborne by these lawless attempts by conspirators of the worst and most worthless cha racter, and above all, they ought not, in this state of the country, and with these dangers before them, to show any disposition to shrink from those dangers, or avoid encountering them with firmness and resolution. Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON thought that the time was now come when he could call the attention of the House to the petition of Mr. R. Milner which he had presented some time since. —(Loud cries of " No, no !") He should certainly not give way ; he had very frequently been disappointed in bringing it forward, and as he had given notice that he should bring the subject forward, he should certainly not give way to any murmurs. Mr. HUME rose to order.—The Noble Lord had specially alluded to a motion which he (Mr. flume) had expressed his intention of bringing forward, and as that was a subject of vital importance to the country at large, he trusted the Gallant Admiral would give way. Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON was not disposed to yield, and be thought his Hon. Friend had not exhi bited his usual sense in interfering with the Order of the Day. Mr. Milner stated in 1821 he had been accused in a letter to the Lords of the Admiralty of having given a power of attorney to a certain person named Sam. Alex ander. The question which he (Sir E. Codrington) had to bring forward was of vital importance to the moral ser vice, and must therefore be of greater importance to the country than anything which could fall from the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, and it was rather indeco cous in that Hon. Gentleman to interrupt him. Mr. Milner having been called upon for explanation had stated that he had never heard of any such transaction as he was accused of—that the Admiralty, if they possessed proof of it should produce that proof—that if the transaction had occurred they must necessarily possess proof, seeing that no half pay was ever.paid, without the person receiving it signing his name in a book which they kept. They could produce no such evidence—they had never divulged the name of the ac cuser. Mr. Milner could prove that he was utterly ignorant of the person to whom it was said he had pre sented the affidavit, &c.—yet he had been condemned and punished in the dark—and at the instigation of ' some person behind the scenes. Was it not therefore a just application that a Committee should be appointed to examine into the case ? The motion having been put from the Chair, Mr. C. WOOD said he could add nothing to what he had repeatedly stated before, viz., that this was a transaction with which the present Admiralty had not had anything to do. That in 1821 there was an accu sation against Mr. Milner for a swindling transaction— that the then Board had, on careful examination, found it well founded—and that succeeding Boards had con firmed their decision, on renewed investigation. More over, he objected on principle to making this House the appeal from the award of a competent tribunal. The House divided, and the numbers were— For the Motion Against it 62 Majority Mr. HUME, upon the question that the Speaker do now leave the Chair, rose and said he regretted that the interlude which had just arisen should have pre vented him from addressing the House after the speech of the Noble Lord, when the House was more full:—(It was nearly empty, scarcely 40 Members being present.) He differed very greatly from what had been expressed by the Noble Lord, as to measures proper to be adopted in the present crisis of affairs. But he felt bound to express his satisfaction that the Government did no intend to propose any new legislative measures.—(Hear, hear.) That considerably lessened what in his (Mr. Hume's) judgment was their undue and unnecessary severity. One result he thought might be derived from the partial outrages which had arisen in the country, and from the course pursued by the Noble Lord,lthat those who supported Universal Suffrage, and similar measures, would only retard the attainment of their objects, by creating disturbances in the country. These persons might have been misled by ardent and perhaps dangerous men. He was convinced that every effort at physical force would check instead of advance the changes of which they were desirable. He was exceedingly desirous of maintaining the public peace, and he agreed with the Noble Lord that in the main tenance of it the working classes themselves were more interested than any part of the community. Their at tacks upon capital were also exceedingly improper, as the labouring classes could only be employed . by the application of c a pital. He was pleased to think that no such attacks upon capital had been made within the last year, and this he looked upon as a symptom of re turning good sense in those classes. The Noble Lord had ver y proper l y remar k e d th a t th e origin of the present agitation began with an agitation against the New Poor law A ct, b ut the Chartist agitation was very different ; those who commenced the agitation against the Poor-law Act h a d no r i ght to the denomination of R e f ormers, but th e y were, as they stated themselves to be, Con servatives to the fullest extent. He did not think that Stephens and Oastler ought to be confounded with the Chartists ; t h ey had nothing in common except their hatred of the Poor -law Bill and the Factory Bill. H . e could not cons id er the Chartists, simply as Char tists ; arid he mu s t say the Noble Lord had not done them justice. He denied the statement of the Noble Lord that these men, as a b o d y, were desirous of des troying or plundering the property of others. There was no authority for any s uc h statement to be found in any of the authorised documents of the Chartists. lie agreed with the Noble Lord that their organisation I was very complete, and therefore he begged this House not to turn away from them, but to consider their statements, and see if anything could not be accorded to them to afford them relief and to allay their dissatisfac tion. They sought for that which both the Noble Lord and Lord Grey had frequently declared to be the right of every Englishman—that no free man should be taxed without having a voice in the choice of his Representatives—if he had not such a voice, he could not be considered as a freeman, but must be taken to belong to the slave class. These persons were deprived of the rights which the Constitution gave them—for as every Englishman owed allegiance to his Sovereign,'and to the laws, so he had a right to look for pro tection for himself and his rights from the Sove reign and the laws in return, and it was because the House had refused those rights to the mass of the people that the present dissatisfaction had arisen. The Constitution gave every Englishman the right of having arms, but then those arms should be used to support the laws, and in return, they were en titled to all the benefits of the Constitution ; and he thought the Noble Lord would find he could not keep down the people without granting the reforms for which they prayed. He was no advocate for disorder, and considered that all riots should be put down even out of mercy to the rioters themselves He was as anxious as the Noble Lord for the preservation of peace and good order. He was sorry, therefore, to see that the Noble Lord proposed an increase of the military force, without any measures of amelioration or reform ac companying it. Let them recollect that a petition had been presented to that House praying for re form, signed by 1,289,959 persons—(Hear, hear) — a greater number than had ever before petitioned the House on that subject. Last Session he had endea voured to call the attention of the House to this sub ject, but the House had turned a deaf ear to what he had stated, and even at the beginning of the present Session they had rejected the amendment to the ad dress proposed by his Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury. The country had been brought to its pre sent state by the negligence of the Ministers, and the unwillingness of that House to attend to the prayers of the people. He would remind the Noble Lord of what took place in 1819, when he and his party pro tested against the Six Acts, and advised the Govern ment to attend to the prayers of the people. The Noble Lord had stated that a large mass of the people were without moral and religious instruction. Whose fault was that ? Why the fault of Parliament, which had refused to give the education. And because they had chosen to keep the people in ignorance and dark ness, was that a reason for turning round upon them, and letting the military loose on them ? The Working Men's Association, in a document drawn up by the very men who drew up the Charter, had two years ago complained of this want. He was happy to state that at this moment there was not a single Conservative on the Conserva tive benches to listen to his statement—(the Conserva tive benches had been completely unoccupied for some time) , ---this was a proof of their utter indifference to this subject, and it was owing to their opposition that the people had been deprived of the benefits of education which the Noble Lord would willingly have bestowed upon them.—(Cheers.) He would not deny but that some among the Chartists may have used i n temp era t e language, but suffering was the bond of union which kept them together. The acts of plunder which had been committed at Birmingham had been occasioned. not by Chartism but by incitation, and having been interfered with in the exercise of their rights by the pop. lice ; and if the people were thus insulted, nothing but a hollow truce would be the consequence. Was it no' notorious that the majority of the inhabitants of this country had not a voice in the choice of representatives. and the case was still worse as regarded Ireland and Scotland ? He was sorry that the increase of military force should be proposed without sonic declara tion on these important topics—but after the statement of the Noble Lord as to the state of the country, he could not persist in the motion of which he had given notice. But it was impossible agitation could cease while the people were denied their rights ; and if this House were disposed to do little, the other House would do less. Their conduct in rejecting the Bill for a small modicum of Reform, which was sent up the other day, showed the spirit that animated them—it was the feather thrown up to show which way the wind blew. There wa., one other point to which he would allude—this increase would add to the taxation and expenses of the countr). He was desirous to have his opinions placed on the records of the House. Mr. T. ATTWOOD seconded the motion. IL was sorry that the Noble Lord had shown no disposi tion to conciliate the people. If he had shown a dis position to repeal the New Poor-law, that would have been looked upon as an attempt at conciliation.— (Laughter, and hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had never shown the good of it. It had reduced expences by 2,000,0001. at the expence of the paupers. Hence the Noble Lord had been called Lord Pinch-Pauper.— (Laughter.) The paupers had been pinched for the benefit of the landed interest. The object was to bring the labourers down to the Irish level.—(Hear, hear.) Now the Noble Lord offered bayonets instead of bread. The consequence of this proceeding would soon bring about an election, and he believed he would soon see the day when the Ministers would not have a seat in this House.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Noble Lord was trying to govern a discontented nation by military force, but he could not do it. Let him once goad the people to the fight ing point, and as sure as there was a God in heaven they would beat him. The Noble Lord would recol lect 150 years. ago—( Loud laughter)—the House was very jocose, but a man might recollect a thing from history as well as from ocular demonstration ; it was quite proper, and any Hon. Member would say he re collected a passage in the life of Julius Gasser, yet no one for a moment supposed he had seen Julius Caesar, or sat at his table.—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord thought he could coerce the people of England, but he (Mr. A.) told him he never could—that was not the proper way to go to work. It was said in America, when measures of coercion accompanied by those of conciliation were sent out, that it was the going abroad of the destroying angel accompanied by the angel of peace. The Noble Lord, however, was sending forth his destroying angel without any angel of peace at all. He trusted to the bayonet and the sword, but they would both be useless unless be gave promise to the people of peace and prosperity. The days of the Go. vernment of the Noble Lord were coming to an end, and unless the system were changed, so would be the days of all Government in this country. He deprecated violence, but he was well aware that there was a point beyond which human endurance would not go. If the Noble Lord would promise some measures of peace and conciliation to the people—to give them all the liberty that was consistent with the liberties and prosperity of the country, then he would be disposed to vote for the Noble Lord's propo sition ; but he could not vote for it unless so accompanied. Mr. WARD, though he thought (and he did not use the word offensively) the motion of the Hon. Member was a very disingenuous one, still he would feel it his duty to vote for it ; he said so, because it embraced so many prin ciples in which many Hon. Members agreed, along with others which they could not support. For instance, in voting for the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member fur Kilkenny, he could not at all condemn the principles of the New Poor-law, for he thought it a very salutary one ; neither would he feel himself at all bound to support any motion for Universal Suffrage. With respect- to the course of conduct pursued by the Noble Secretary for the Home Department, it was impossible for him to say how deeply he felt grateful to him for it. With a system of organization going ou throughout the country, with the people arming and threatening the peace of the country, he could not express too strongly his sense of the debt the House and the country owed him for his temperance, his forbearance, and his prudence.—(Cheers.) At the very beginning of the Chartist agitation he appealed to the common sense of the nation, in place of coercion, and com mon sense had now come to the rescue. The chief leaders of the first Chartist agitation were now ashamed of those whom they had been the means of bringing out. The Hon. Member for Birmingham, who last year took an active part in the agitation now repudiated those who had taken his place, and the sacred month had become a failure; even Mr. Stephens when addressing his congre gation at Stayley Bridge the other day said, " I thank God, that my conscience is clear of the sacred month humbug—it is Mr. Attwood's humbug and not mine."._ (Laughter.) The middle classes were arraying themselves against then], and all now showed that the people had been misled. He was very sorry there should be any di vision upon that subject.—( Hear, bear.) He would beg and press upon his Hon. Friend the Member for Kil kenny, the propriety, the justice, he would say almost the necessity, in the present state of the country, not to bring the question to a division; if he pressed on a division however, he (Mr. Ward) who had always voted for progressive reform, would feel it his bounden duty to vote with him, for how, after his votes in that Session, could he say that measures of coer cion alone would be succesful ? -He was perfectly willing to give the additional force because Le thought it was necessary, but how was it possible for him to vote against all the principles he had ever professed without giving at the same time an assurance of their an_ xious desire to ameliorate the condition of the people? The Hon. Member for Birmingham said, if the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had dissolved last spring he would have had a majority. He did not doubt it; but considering the state of Manchester and Birmingham—of Newcastle, and the manufacturing districts generally, how was he to have governed this country in peace, especially as, with out a Government that was supposed to lean favourably towards Ireland, how could they have withdrawn so many troops ? The Hon. Member for Kilkenny had read largely from the addresses of the Convention. However cautiously they were worded he put no faith in them, when he found every i n di v id ua l mem b er o f t h at Convention, when add ress i ng l arge b odies of people, invariably insist ing upon an entire change in the constitution of society and a distribution of property. That was the only sort of language that would go down with the people. Had the Hen. Member never heard of the Bible Radicals-:--of those who quoted the Scriptures for the cover of spoliation ? One of that class, in his speech, reminded his bearers an " the walls of Jerico fell down before the people of God, and every one stepped in, taking what they pleased " This was in Manchester, and they called themselves Char ists, and it was only by the use of such language and such doctrines that the leaders kept up their influence in the manufacturing districts. It would be with reluctance he would vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend, and lie trusted he would be saved the pain, as he would put it to the good feeling and good taste of the Hon. Member, THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, AUGUST 3, 1839. whether it was expedient to weaken the hands of the Government at such a time by having any division upon such a vote. Captain BOLDERO had heard all the praise given by the Hon. Member to the Noble Lord—he only wondered how different would have been that language, had the additional force been asked for by the Right Hon. Baronet below him (Sir R. Peel). It was well known that the press of London kept correspondents throughout the globe —so surely they would have them at home, yet they said nothing of all this arming and training. It was true there had been a riot and burning at Birmingham, but that might have been quelled by a little more vigilance on the part of the Magistrates. There had also been distur bances at Newcastle, but that was promptly met, and at once put down, but the Noble Lord had failed to make out a case for the addition be called for. He (Captain B.) would, however, vote for it, on the ground that the troops were so harrassed, that it was with difficulty that garrison duty could be performed. At a recent court martial a man was tried for sleeping on his post, he ac knowledged it,but he said he had been on sentry 15 nights out of 30, and nature was exhausted—be could not bear it. He thanked her Majesty's Government for moving for the increase, and he trusted the House would give its unani mous assent to the motion. Mr. C. BULLER had come down with the intention of giving a cordial and decided negative to the amendment proposed. The amendment could be of no value, except as indicating a certain opinion among those who supported it.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. Hume.) The Hon. Member had mentioned three remedies for the evils that now ex isted. A repeal of the Corn-laws—an issue of small notes, worth nothing—(Laughter)—and, what certainly was a new point, excluding Ministers from a seat in that House. If the complaints of the people were to be taken into con sideration, and if remedies were to be devised, let them fairly and explicitly state what those remedies were, and not lead the people on with vain hopes. He was anxious to express his hearty and entire concur rence in the course that had been pursued by Ministers during the late events, and he hoped no division would take place on this question, because he thought it was important that those who professed themselves most in favour of the liberty of the subject, and most opposed to coercive measures, should mark in the strongest way their sense of the admirable conduct of the Government in ab staining from unnecessary measures of coercion.—( Hear, hear.) Heretofore, under similar circumstances, it had been the practice of the Government to take advantage of every partial disturbance in order to encroach on the liberty of the subject, and to enforce the worst enactments of our laws. In former times the excesses at Birmingham would have been construed into treason, and the worst severities of our libel laws would have been put in force.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home Department, therefore deserved great credit for the course he had pursued. The Government had proposed no mea sure at all restrictive of public liberty—all they did was to prosecute those who openly violated laws for the pro tection of personal property, and to ask Parliament to give them the physical means of enforcing the ancient laws of the land. That was? power he would not refuse to any Government. No man's property could be injured by an increase in the force—the only inconvenience was an in creased expense. He had, therefore, a right to protest against the language of the Hon. Member for Birming ham, who seemed to have enveloped the Government of the present day in censures that would have been applica ble to the very worst Governments. His opinion was they ought to be very thankful that the management of affairs had been in the hands of the present Government during the late crisis,—( Hear, hear.) He was rather astonished et the want of informa tion manifested by the Hon. and Gallant Captain who had just sat down, because he appeared to be so little ac quainted with the state of the country as to think the dis turbances in Birmingham and Newcastle were isolated cases. His (Mr. Buller's) opinion was, that it was very unwise to treat those disturbances of the Chartists—those fermentations that existed in the public mind at the pre s. nt moment, as light and unimportant, and as not extend ing to a large portion of the populace. He was, how ever, afraid the present excitement would prove a source of great difficulty to the future Government of England. Any man of common sense, and who had any information on the state of the country, would see that all their party squabbles and differences of opinion sank into utter insig nificance when compared with the great problem of restor ing something like satisfaction among the great mass of the working classes.—( Hear.) They had now to deal with a generation of working men, such as no Govern ment ever had to deal with before—they had to deal with a generation among whom education of any kind whatever told, for the grown up working men of the present day were the first persons whem Bell er Lancas ter, the Church or the Dissenters, had taught to read or write. That was a small. modicum of education—it served to circulate bad doctrines among the people, but it gave those doctrines prominence and power._( Hear, hear.) He had said "bad doctrines"—he had not meant that, because every one knew that was contrary to his opinions.—(Laughter from the Opposition.) What he had meant to say was, that the doctrines of the press did give circulation to bad doctrines. Look at the force of a press entirely supported by the working classes.— (Hear, hear.) Formerly the writings of Cobbett were periodically circulated, and the pamphlets of demagogues had a temporary circulation—but now there was a regular press, supplying all information respecting the occurrences of the day, circulated among the working classes, and supported solely by them. It was not circutcated gra tuitously, but depended for support on the general appetite of all mankind for news, and being the most extensively circulated, and the most profitable press in England—for he might say, without fear of contradiction, that the press which circulated among the working people was by far the most extensive, and, with only few exceptions, the most profitable production—they found the food most palatable to their readers was dwelling on the sufferings which were unfortunately the lot of a great mass of the people in this country. These were the evils with which they had to contend, and these evils could not be put down by the rough measures formerly employed by rulers, who were used to clap two or three of the most violent agi tators into prison, and ruin the most violent newspapers. But let them do what they would the press would exist.— ( Hear, hear.) It would still be the interest of speculators to keep up a press for the working classes, which afforded the best market, and it would be still for their interest to cater to the appetite of the people. Such a state of things had never before existed in England, and 'what they had to dread was that these feel ings of Chartism, if now put down, would merely slumber for a while. He should be exceedingly happy if be were as well armed with a panacea for these evils as some of his friends professed to be. His own notion was that it would take a long time to restore a perfectly good feeling among the working classes of this country, and that it would re quire the best dispositions of Parliament in a long course of useful and practical legislation. Those results, he be. lieved, might be produced by the extension of political privileges, and the gradual extension of education, which would teach the people what a Government could do, and moreover what a Government could not do for them; and also by removing the unwise laws that restricted the in dustry of the people. The people ought also to feel by the demeanour and constant language of that House, that there was in the breast of their riders a very lively sym pathy with the people. It would also be prudent to show the people that at the time they strengthened the law they thought the law ought to be improved. Sir R. PEEL protested against the doctrine, that because one man chose to embody in an amendment an abstract principle of which he m ight approve, that he was compelled to support it whenever any Hon. Member might choose to bring it forward.—(Rear, hear.) He denied there existed any obligation on the part of a Member of Parliament at all times and at r.ll seasons, however incon venient, and whatever misconstruction might arise from his doing so, to vote for such a pvinciple. Ho very much doubted whether it would not hive been true economy to have increased the military force earlier, considering the severe pressure on the military force in differents parts of the world.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") It was infinitely better to demonstrate that vigour on the part of the law should convineie parties of the hopeless ness of success, than to tempt ithem to violence by having inadequate means.—( Hear, he: tr.) The ordinary law of the country, if executed with firmness, was a very strong power, but there would be a t endency to deprive it of that power if they abandoned it at an early period, and resorted to temporary measu re e.—( Hear, hear.) He therefore had forborne, whateve r the sense of danger had been, from pressing upon tihe Government the adop tion of measures of restrictios and coercion, knowing well that the ordinary laws of ti te, country, if administered firmly, would be sufficient to re.press it. He agreed with the Hon. Member opposite, tl tat it would be unwise to treat with contempt the mail b'station of public opinion amongst the working classes. —(Hear, hear)—but the most fatal error they could cotnmit would be by making changes in the Constitution of th e country for the purpose of allaying those feelings. If they believed it was wise to change the Constitution, let th em change it from the econ viction of their mi n d s ; but to conciliate the Chartists by making unwise ch anges wou ld .eppose the count r y to t h e hear.)utmost It peril, would and involvegiv give no theH o satin ;faction nt whatever .__( mpt, Hear, and give them no benefit. H e wou ld re . m ind the House that it was not many years sin ce an extensi le' , e change was made in the e Constitution, and the promises Of amelioration were then most extensive. It had been i ral!Possible for the Reformed Parliament to realise the hop es which were held out to the country. But he hoped, n ot by coercing the people, not by exposing the Chartists, to the military or civil ex ecution, but he hoped that rea Boning alone would be suffi cient to convince rational Er igishmen when the present fever should be subdued, lit iw little their real interest would be advanced if they took the advice of their leaders, or if some of their present objects c ould be attained. What must the Hon. Member who a few months ago recommended the formation of the National Convention, now think of of it? It was elected by Universal Suffrage, and he ra ther thought that this instance of the principle would not secure the confidence of the p eople. The Hon. Member for Birmi ng h am sa id they coul. i enjoy universal confidence , but the fi rst t hi ng they did wa s to recommend an adher ence to a metallic currency, c in which the Hon. Member immediately disclaimed them, stating that it gave him a pang similar t o th at w hi ch he should have felt if his right arm had been cut from his body.—(Laughter). The Hon. Member was flow read y to agitate against the Na tional Convention ?—(Mr. tttwood—" Decidedly.")—. (Laughter.) The Hon. Mt :saber for Kilkenny, who brought forward this remedy o f a change in the Constitu tion, traced the evils to inadege to representation.—(Mr. Hume—." A bad Hous e of Coles mons. ')—(Laughter and cheers.) But whatever ammo took place, a difference would still prevail. The Hon. Member was the advocate of economy, but it wa s a ,niserable economy which did not keep up ouB establishment; and the Honourable Member fo r Birmingham, considering Nicholas of Russia o u e real enemy, would be ready to impeach the la s , n . Member if he did not pro pose an addition of ten sail ot ' the line to defeat his ma noeuvres.—(Laughter.) Th .erefore a difference of opinion would still prevail in the Cor istitution. The Hon. Mem ber for Birmingham would in 'ens upon the Hon. Member for Kilkenny the necessity of 'taking part against Russia— ( Hear, hear, from Mr. Atte rood.) He doubted whether the Hon. Member for Birmingham was not further dis posed to charge on the Reformed Parliament en undue consideration of economy, and whether it would not have been good policy to increase both our army and navy.—( Mr. Attwood—"Certainly.")—(Laughter.) If the Hon. Member was prepared to maintain the national faith and to increase the army and navy, he did not see how the expectation could be realised which was held out of a reduced taxation. Let the House of Commons be constituted as it would, it seemed that it was not the legitimate organ of public opi nion, but that there was to be opinions out of doors. He did not believe, if they intended to maintain the national faith, that they could fulfil the expectations which were held out of the advantages to be derived from a reduction of taxation. Since the Reform Bill there had been no advance towards the reduction of taxation, but, on the contrary, a debt which did not then exist, existed now. He urged this, to show that it was unwise to encourage the expectations that ex tensive changes would necessarily be attended with great advantage. He could not help saying how little agreed the Chartists and agitators were, one class stating that the only remedy for the public distress was a division of the landed property—( Hear, hear)—be cause it was stated that originally the land being an ele ment, and the air being an element, the land was as com mon as the air.—(Laughter.) He wished to impress on the House that ill digested concessions were of no avail, and that after the first concession was made, others were urged as absolutely necessary. The Hon. Member for Birmingham said that the banners of the Chartists were inscribed " Peace, Law, and Order ;" but wicked leaders Might take advantage of the organization made under his influence, and when the proper time came, they might be inscribed " Plague, Anarchy, and Confusion." He hoped that a careful consideration on the part of the work ing classes,'ef the little hope there could be of seizing on pro perty by violence, of the certain loss that must oc c ur by the' interruption of peaceful industry, of the loss which they had sustained by taking the foolish advice of withdrawing their money from the Savings' Banks, in the hope of creating public confusion. He did trust more to the in fluence of good sense and reason than'the power of menaces or bayonets to keep the working classes of the country from the evil example of those who, from interested advice, were urging on the working classes as instruments for their own private gain. Mr. ATT WOOD explained. Mr. WARBURTON said that one advantage of tha amendment of his Hon. Friend was, that it had enabled many Gentlemen to give their opinions, and thereby strengthen the hands of the Government.—( Hear.) Not one Gentleman had said a single word against the proposal of the Noble Lord except the Hon. Member for Birmingham. But he thought this a fit occasion to state what means were necessary in order to reconcile the public. Amongst the various causes that had contributed to the dis satisfaction which now existed was the state of parties in this House, the balance of which bad prevented the carrying of several useful measures of reform.--( Hear. ) Fiscal reforms could not be carried, owing to the balanced state of parties in this House. The moment the Presi dent of the Board of Trade brought forward the Timber Question, it would be made as it had before been, a party question, and that was given as a reason for not bringing it forward.—( Hear, hear.) Then there was the New Poor-law. He did not agree with those who had made it a grouud for raising public discontent in the country ; but he believed it was this question more than any questions of Parliamentary Reform, which had excited the present dissatisfaction.—Hear, hear.) His apprehension was that tile Government, whether Whig or Tory, which should be compelled to bring in a bill to amend that law, would not, and under the present state of parties could not, act honestly respecting it; his belief was, that any Government attempting to act honestly upon the subject would be turned out of office. Now these were great questions on which it it was necessary that Parliament should legislate ; yet what chance was there of legislating satisfactorily upon them in the present state of parties, when immediately the Government introduced a measure, such as it would befit Parliament to enact, it was forthwith made a party question ?—( Hear, hear.) And when the public saw that there was no chance of their legislating satisfactorily, how could they expect to be held in respect?—( Hear, hear.) He would not advocate further Parliamentary Reforms, simply because he was attached to a popular form of Government, but because he saw that the present ba lanced state of parties produced anarchy—that is want of rule—want of legislatioo ; because it was necessary to give the predominance to one party or the other, that legis lation could not go on without. Of course he wished his own party to have the predominance.-_( Hear, and a laugh.) He had rather see the Liberal party preponderate than the Tory ; and wishing legislation to go on, and knowing it could not go on without giving the pre ponderance to one party, he therefore advocated further advances in Parliamentary Reform, not conceiving that it would lead, as the Right Hon. Baronet anticipated, to fur ther indefinite changes, but viewing it as a mode of enabling the Legislature to perform its func tions, thereby inducing the public to think well of the Legislature and favourably of the Constitution.—( Hear, hear. ) Upon these grounds, he thought the course adopted by the Government in resisting further changes—in preventing the Liberal party from obtaining that majority which, under a pro per conduct of the Government, he believed they would ob tain. He thought that course injudicious, for he was per suaded that if the Government persevered in the course they pursued last Session, the preponderance of the Tory party would be secured.—( Hear, hear.) Thinking that this was the last opportunity ,in the present Session, perhaps, on which he could express his opinions on these important measures, he had those principles which he considered essential to give confidence and vigour to the Liberal party, and those measures which he believed must be carded either by a Tory or a Whig Govern ment ; and which, if carried by the present Ministry, would add strength and power to the Liberal cause.—(Hear, hear. ) Mr. O'CONNELL considered it his duty to address a few words to the House on this subject; and the reason that in duced him to do so he would shortly express. In the first place he declared his anxiety to concur in the motion which had been made by the Noble. Lord, and had the Noble Lord considered it necessary to augment the military force still more he should have felt equal confidence in the proposition. He thought the Noble Lord v% as right in not resorting to extreme measures in legislation until every other means had been tried, and he considered the increase of the military one of the best of these means. But he had another motive for rising. The Right Hon. Bart. had spoken of the necessity of increasing the military from the state of the colonies, from the state especially of the Canadas and the West Indies, and from the state of this country. He was glad to find one reason left out of the Ca talogue--the state of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped he should not be considered guilty of an unpardonable vanity in boasting of the state of Ireland—( Hear, hear, from both sides of the House)—in boasting that the military 'had constantly diminished in that part of the country.—( Hear, hear.) Yet, let it be remembered that the House spent five days in de bating whether the policy of the present Government, as to Ireland, should be continued—(Hear, hear)—in policy of which the results had been, that in Ireland alone was there no- danger.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet was quite right in saying that the industrious and the loyal subjects of the Crown should be not only safe, but secure—that is removed from all apprehension.-- ( Hear, hear.) That is what a people, heavily taxed, had a right to expect from their Government.—( Hear, hear.) Nei ther could there be any constitutional objection to increasing the military force to the largest extent required by the exi gencies of the case ; for the soldiers of this country were not ferocious mercenaries—but remarkable for their moderation and forbearance.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet spoke against ill-considered concessions. But the argument went equally against all concessions. Now he (Mr. 0' Con nell) considered that concession was proper when founded on real want and existing grievances. Concession to those who were clamorous for their rights, disarmed them, and strengthened the party conceding.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") We refused to concede to America till we lost her ; whereas the concession to Ireland of the repeal of the Penal Statutes preserved Ireland to us. Therefore it should be inquired care fully if the Chartists had any well-founded complaint.—(Hear, hear.) They asked for Universal Suffrage. The Right Hon. Baronet pointed to the Convention, and triumphantly asked whether that was a satisfactory proof of the benefits of Uni versal Suffrage. Now the Convention were not in fact re turned by Universal Suffrage. The wealthier classes did not vote—the middle classes did not vote—the 30s. a week arti sans did not vote; it was only the 7s. a week workmen.__ ( Hear, hear.) The Convention was the most exclusive body it was possible to imagine, and acted as all exclusive bodies did act—exceedingly ill--only they had the good sense to reject the little shilling" measure.—(Laughter.) But considering the miserable narrow basis on which the House of Commons now rested, the people of England had a right to ask for the concessions on the franchise.—( Hear, hear.) The middle classes—the rational middle classes—should be relieved from the vexations of the rate-paying clauses, and the difficul ties of registration ; and while the Suffrage was so restricted as it was, at present the working classes would have substan tial cause for discontent, and it would not be imaginary, vision ary, dissatisfaction.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing but the absurd " physical force" doctrines of the Chartists could retain the present exclusive state of the franchise. This " sacred month" would be a month of starvation, for what had the operative to subsist upon, but their weekly earnings ?—( Hear, hear, hear. ) Let not the House be deterred f rom d o i ng j ust i ce, by dislike to concession—in injustice there could be no security—but in con ceding what was just would the greatest security to be found. Mr. VILLIERS said ho agreed in the propriety of increasing the military force for the preservation of life and property. And he commended the course which the Government had adopted in suppressing the dis turbances that had arisen during the last ten months; their conduct he considered had been marked by justice and humanity.—(Hear, hear.) But he believed that real exist ing grievances were the source of the prevailing discontent in this country. And he should be ashamed of himself if, having himself proposed the redress of some of those grievances, he were now not to justify much of the discontent he considered the result of those grievances not having been removed. That House might blame themselves for all that had occurred. He wished to know what the people of this country had ever gained by argument, or by peaceable means-4 Hear, hear.) Ireland did not, for instance, obtain Emancipation but through excite ment ; nor this country Parliamentary Reform. And Par liamentary Reform having failedto produce those benefits which were anticipated from it, had they not the right to ask further extension of the suffrage.__( Hear, hear.) The House were so divided among themselves—they were so eternally vilifying each other, th a t t h ey h ad lost all moral respect. He could not but think that some reform might be effected to improve the condition of the people. In that respect he must differ from the Noble Lord, for he firmly believed that it was in the power of the Legislature to afford material relief by in troducing alterations into the system of taxation, and remov ing these restrictions which had been imposed upon trade and commerce, and which he believed had occasioned much of the suffering under which the people were labouring. He could not but think that when all, except those who were imme diately interested in upholding those restrictions, agreed in stating that the removal would be beneficial, that some well considered alteration of these laws would be calculated to alle viate the distress under which the people were suffering.._. Cheers. • Lord FRANCIS EGERTON—Although willing to give the measure of the; Noble Lord his support, because he considered the necessity of it fully proved, and not wishing to cavil at the conduct of the Noble Lord and his Colleagues, yet must protest against being considered as joining in that general chorus of approbation of the conduct of the Ministers, in which the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, seemed to think 'that both sides of the House were willing to join. Mr. SCHOLEFIELD denied that the people were actuated by any general desire of plunder. With regard to arming, he could state, from his own knowledge, that there had been a great exaggeration. He had made inquiries, and did not be lieve that arming had gone on to any great extent to Birming ham. All honest Reformers in that town disavowed any connection with the wretches who had perpetrated the outrages. Deep distress had occasioned the disaffection. With regard to what had fallen from his Hon. Colleague, he would put it to the House seriously whether some adjustment might of take place by the imposition of a property tax so as to alleviate the 1 distresses of the people. Sir ROBERT PEEL explained. He did not mean to impute to the people generally those intentions which the Hon. Member for Birmingham was anxious to repudiate. After a few words from Mr. HOBHOUSE, Lord J. RUSSELL said the discussion which had just taken place showed a general concurrence of the House on two points—first, that it was now expedient.to increase the military force of the country ; and next, that before the present time it would not have been wise to call for a new law to alter the constitutional safe-guards of the country.—( Hear, hear.) He was gratified to perceive this general concurrence, for he believed this unanimity of thinking amongst persons of dif ferent persuasions would have a very great weight on the country, and would strengthen the present Government and the course of Government in general. He had no objection that the Hon. Member for Kilkenny should desire to record his opinions in connection with the present question ; but he could not but regret that he meant to take the sense of the House on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) If the Honourable Gentleman thought the desired increase of force should be refused to the Government, then it was incumbent that he should take the sense of the House ; but as the Honourable Gen tleman concurred in the propriety of the vote, he did not see what necessity there was at the present time for taking the sense of the Honse upon opinions which it was well kno wn in that he entertained by what had passed former discussions I in the House. The Hon. Gentleman also put the House to an injudicious inconvenience, by including in his amendment the proposition that the people were inadequately represented, that a change in the system was desirable, and that a sweeping reduction of taxation was also necessary. A very wide differ ence of opinion existed on the latter question. It was quite common for speakers, at public meetings, and for writers through the press, to insist that a very great reduc tion of taxation might and ought easily to take place. But this House was almost unanimously of opinion that the public faith ought to be maintained, and that no reduction of taxation should take place in those establishments which were necessary to uphold the honour and the power of the country. This being the opinion of the House, it was clear that, consistently with those obligations, no general reduction of taxa tion could take place. The Members said they would not alter the standard, they would not debase the currency, that public faith with the creditors should be maintained, and our naval and military honour should be supported. In these assertions it was implied that no sweeping reduction of taxation could take place. A sweeping reduction of taxation would involve an abolition of the national debt and the engagements of the country. And when the Hon. Members for Kilkenny and Bridport were of those opinions, they ought not to make vague statements, which must have the effect of misleading the people. As for some of the arguments put forward by the Chartists, he (Lord J. R.) could not say that he was disposed to dissent from them. For example, he did not think it at all an unnatural idea to propose that the country should be divided into electoral dis tricts. But he did not think that the representatives chosen by the electors of those districts, whether they should be Tories or Whigs or Liberals, would be found to possess views advan tageous to trade and commerce.—( Hear, hear.) He remem bered in former days when he was an humble Member on the opposition side of the House, but a supporter of some of the propositions of Mr. Huskisson, when he (Lord J. R.) used to go down to the country to meet his Constituents, he used to have great difficulty in meeting their charges, that he was for Huskisson and Free Trade. But Universal Suffrage and Electoral Divisions would not in their result satisfy the Honourable Member for Bridport. He was opposed to a fresh scheme of Reform, because he (Lord John Russell) thought it would be injurious to the country, and would also be unsatisfactory to the Reformers themselves. He had always avoided delusive promises to the people on this head, and he now thought, as well as heretofore, that another change would not and could not have the effect of increasing wages and im proving the condition of the people, nor increase the comforts of the working classes.—( Hear, hear. ) Such a notion he was anxious to discourage, as he believed it must injure the stability of the institutiohs of the country. Upon all those grounds, therefore, and seeing that the other Hon. Members agreed so far, be hoped the lion. Member for Kilkenny would not press his motion. Mr. HUME explained. He did not desire to effect a sweep ing reduction of taxation, but to equalize it, so th at t h e manu facturing and labouring classes might be relieved. He would neither withdraw nor press his motion. The original motion was carried. CASE OF LOVETT AND COLLINS. Mr. LEADER presented a petition from Dr. Taylor to the same effect as that he had already presented from Collins and Lovett—with only this aggravation, that he was heavily ironed while on his way from Birmingham to Warwick gaol. He thought the defence of the Magistrates tended to con firm the statement of Lovett and Collins rather than contra dict it. He thought the House should remember that work ing people must have the same sensibilities as Hon. Members. The amount of bail was excessive for mechanics--that was a subject of complaint--to ask them for bail to the amount of 1,000,. was like asking bail for any Member of that House to the amount of 100,0001. As the forms of the House would not allow him to make any motion upon the subject, he would only hope that if the law allowed untried prisoners to be so treated, it would be soon altered. Sir E. WILMOT did not know that it was necessary for him to make any answer to the speech of the Hon. Gentleman. He would call upon the House not to take for granted all that was stated about the half-crown—for he was assured that it was not strictly according to the truth. The Hon. Baronet then re. capitulated the evidence which was adduced by the Earl of Warwick in the House of Lords respecting the transactions in the gaol. Much was said respecting the cutting of the hair, and he understood that it had been sent up to London, and was carried in the pocket of a ce.tain eccentric Ex-Chancellor, ready to be produced in another place.— (Laughter. ) The fact was, that Collins' hair was not cut at all, and Lovett's was cut at his own desire. If they had had any complaint to make they might have made it to the gaoler, who was as excellent and humane a man in his situation of life as any in that House ; or they might have complained to the Magistrates, but instead of that be;ng done it appeared to him ( Sir E. Wilmot) that certain parties had availed themselves of the late occurrences for the purpose of exciting an ill feeling against the Magistracy. Mr. HAWES was of opinion that the rules and regulations of the gaol as applied to prisoners before trial were illegal, and that Lovett and Collins had been subjected to illegal treatment. The Magistrates had net discharged their duty in not drawing a distinction between persons committed for safe custody, and persons imprisoned after"trial. Mr. O'CONNELL considered many of the regulations of the gaol most vexatious, and trusted that the present case would have the effect of causing these matters to be looked into more closely than they would otherwise have been. The conversation then dropped, and the House resolved itself into COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Lord HOWICK said it was proposed to raise 5,395 men for the purpose of augmenting the infantry of the line. The annual expense would be 127,8001. The expenses of the first year would however be 167,500/. He now moved that a vote of 75,000/. be granted up to 31st March next. The Earl of DARLINGTON thought it would be less ex pensive and more efficacious to raise the same force from the militia that the Noble Lord proposed to raise from the regi ments of the line. Lord HOWICK said the course proposed would prove far more economical. The force now proposed to be raised would be available both for domestic and foreign service. Mr. HUME considered if 5,000 men were to be raised, that the most efficient, most economical, and most just course was that which was proposed by the Noble Lord, the Secretary-at- War. Mr. DUNCOMBE hoped the increase now proposed would not be permament. Lord HOWICK said, if fortunately the necessity ceased, the increase would be relinquished. He was as anxiouras any one could be, to diminish the forces employed in the Colonies. The vote was agreed to. On the vote of 68,0001. for the Universities. Sir J. GRAHAM asked why the grant of 8001. to the Glas gow University was discontinued in the present year for the first time during a century. Mr. BARING said the question was not decided, nor was the omission of the grant from the present estimate to be con sidered final. Sir R. PEEL said it was very dangerous to discontinue grants of this kind. The vote was then agreed to. The House then resumed, the Report to be received on Monday. Lord JOHN RUSSELL then moved the Order of the Day for the House going into Committee on the Birmingham Po lice Bill. He said he found the same difficulties existing in Manchester, and unless the House interposed it would be with out a police during the settling of the question whether the Cor poration had the power to raise to raise a rate for the police. He would therefore withdraw the present Bill, for the purpose of introducing an amended one. . Mr. HUME objected to the proceeding. Why not bring in a declaratory Bill stating what was the object of the Noble Lord in granting the Charter, or if the Charter- was not suffi cient, withdrawn it, but do not degrade these corporations by taking by separate Bills all control of their own police from them. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the matter being now before a Court of Law, there would be great difficulty in passing such a Bill as the Hon. Member spoke of, and if fhe Government did not interfere, neither Birmingham nor Manchester would have any police for two years. Mr. C. BULLER said he must oppose this plan as a dere liction of every principle of municipal government. He wished to see an efficient police under the control of the local authorities, and not under the control of the Executive Govern ment.—( Hear, hear.) He must take the sense of the House on the withdrawal of the original Bill. Sir R. PEEL said that the Hon. Member for Liskeard, who now objected to taking the police from local control, had con sented that the 8,000 police in Ireland should be taken from local control and placed under an Inspector-General.—( Hear, hear.) It was of great importance that a Court of Law should determine whether the Corporation had the power of levying a rate, and while that remained in doubt he thought the Noble Lord was justified in the course he was pursuing. Mr. GISBORNE objected to the proposal !of the Noble Lord, and thought that he ought to have given more explana tion on the subject. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that with respect to New castle and Stockport, where there were corporations which no one disputed, the police were properly under the controul of the authorities ; but in Birmingham and Manchester, so long as there was a n y di spute as to the validity of the Charter, ' it was necessary to give some extraordinary remedy. Mr. WAKLEY said the 10,0001. had been granted on the understanding that it was applied by the local authorities, and his intention had only been altered by the suggestion of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite. He (Mr. Wakloy) would sug gest that: the Secretary of State ought to have the power to appoint a Commissioner, in case the Corporation should not be able to carry out the object. Mr. P. THOMSON agreed with the Hon. :Member that the appointm en t o f the police ought to be left to the locall al authorities; but, the real question was, who were the authorities ? H e h a d no doubt that t h o T o wn Council decided in but aeother pa r ty c l a i me d i t, an d t h e que stion must b in a Court o f L aw.—(Heay, hear .) I n the mean time, some provision ought to b e ma d e t o s ecure the peace of the towns to which the measure applied. his A ß lr i . gh A t L H P o li n. lL F l r P ie P nd S . concurred in al i l e th A a i t ee h e a n d e b st e e e r n w sta as ted mostby effective, and th ere wou ld be n - The aotfplty funds.t that H suche strongly a o oli n e e e ed of the . military to qu e ll va luable disturbancesfor force s should be band disbandedit woul d f b e e r want agre supported th e plan of the Noble Lord as the proper middle course which would give a triumph to neitherparty were in the borough. Mr. WARBURTON said no private rights , called in que s tion—the mere question was whether the legally si consti tutedwasin: Town Council had the p ower of levy ing rat tended they should—why then not bring in a Bill to declare what was the law ? Lord CLEMENTS thought the proposition a Most un constitutional one he objected to the Government having power over such a force. In Ireland the police force was neither more nor less than an army, and were good or bad, ac cording to the complexion of the Government of the day. Mr. SCHOLEFIELD, seeing that it was a matter of ne cessity, and that they had not, and conid not, raise a police force, would agree to th e proposition of ,the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) He co u ld not help thinking, however, that a stigma was cast upon the Town Council. He submit ted, as a matter. of necessity, and he trusted the experiment would succeed, and be soon unnecessary. Mr. THORNELY said • the whole of the difficul ties they were now in arose from the Noble Lord not per severing in. the Bill for giving Corporations to the large towns EVENING EDITION. of England. Had that Bill been paused there would have been no difficulty about a ratc. Mr. AT-TWOOD protested against the withdrawal of the Bill to which he had given a reluctant consent ; if he did withdraw it, then let him leave the town as it was--(Hear, hear)--and bring in no other. Birmingham wanted no more police than before, and they would be able to take care of themselves. There would be more harmony in the town as it was now than with a Government Police. Had it not been introduced, he believed there would have been no riots. After a few words from Mr. BROTHERTON and Sir E. WILMOT, Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion BO Against it Majority for the withdrawal of the Bill —66 On our re-admission we found Lord J. RUSSELL depre cating the postponement of the formation of a Police in Bir mingham, and asking for leave to bring in a Bill that night. Mr. HUME objected to that course being taken at two o'clock in the morning, for he believed that the people in Bir mingham would never allow a police governed by the Secretary of State, and he had letters from many of the Council, saying they would never consent to the Corporation Seal being used for the purpose of giving any security for such a purpose. He, therefore, moved that the House do adjourn. —( Cries of " No.") Lord J. RUSSELL again explained the natare of the Bill. The Police would be a Local Police and managed by a Com missioner also local. He merely asked for leave to bring m the Bill-for the purpose of having it printed. Mr. OSWALD was one who voted in the minority, bat the House having so clearly determined against him, he would not give any further opposition, which he would consider fac tious. Mr. Warburton, Mr. C. Buller, and Mr. M. Phillips, hoped the Honourable M em b er for Kilkenny would not persist in his opposition. Mr. HUME said he would now withdrew his motion for the adjournment, but would certainly divide the House agains t bringing in the Bill. The gallery was then cleared, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion . Against it ....... Majority for the Bill 74 The Bill was then brought in and read a first time. The Slave Trade Treaties' Bill was read a third time, and passed. _ _ _ On the Order of the Day being read for bringing . up the Report on the Metropolitan Police Bill, a short discussion 60 0 K place, and it was ultimately fixed for Monday. Several Hon• Members objecting to the inconvenient practice of sitting on Saturdays, unless to forward Bills to which there was no opPo siti on . The Assaults (Ireland) Bill, and the Sheep:stealing (re" land) Bill were read a third time and passed. The Dublin Police Bill was re-committed, and the Report ordered to be received on Monday. The Constabulary Force (Ireland) Bill was reported, and some:clauses added. The Sale of Spirits (Ireland) Bill was reported. On the motion of Sir S. LUSHINGTON a Committee was appointed to inspect the Journals of the House of Lords, with relation to any proceedings upon the Bill for the Sup pression of the Portuguese Slave Trade, and to make a Report thereof to the House. Mr. F. BARING brought in the Bank of Ireland Bill which was read a first time. The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, and the House adjourned a QUARTER BEFORE THREE until Monday next. THE ARMY. The next five regiments for foreign service are the Ist Rifle brigade, 42d, 78th, 88th, and 97th. The 34th depot, from the Cove of Cork to Chatham. The 7th Fusiliers, from Kilkenny, and the 38th, from Enniskillen, are to replace the 81st and 82d, at Gibraltar. The 25th regiment, from Devonport, for Canada. The 94th depot, from Chester to Bristol. The 29th regiment—head quarters, from Bristol for Weedon. Government have approved of an addition of 1/, bounty money to recruits for cavalry and infantry. The 25th regiment replaces the 15th foot, and the Royals the 11th, in Canada. The 11th and 15th return to Eng" land. The 81st and 82d replace the 56th and 67th; the 56th, from Jamaica, and 67th, from Barbadoes, replace the 66th and 73d in Canada, which return to England. The 32d depot, from Fermoy to Wexford. The 11th regiment of light dragoons, at Canterbury , arc to relieve the 12th at Brighton —the latter proceeding to the north of England. The 78th Highlanders, from Glasgow, are to replace the Royals in Edinburgh.' The embarkation of the Ist battalion'of the Royal reg l ment for Canada, has been suspended for the present. SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE. (LLOYD'S.) DEAL, Ace. 1. —Wind W. S.W.—Arrived the Active, Hutchinson, from Rio Janeiro; Campbell's, Robson, Tobago; Henrietta, Riga. PORTSMOUTH AUG. N.W. to S.W.—Arrived the Francis, PORTSMOUTH, from Oporto. Sailed the Wellington , Chadwick, for New York ; Lord Hungerford, Saunders, Cal cutta. Put back, the Duke of Bedford and British Tar. PLYMOUTH, AUG. I.—Wind W. S.W. FALMOUTH, JULY 31.—Wind N. W. to W., gales with heavy squalls.—Arrived the Palemon, Biggs, Miramichi Emerald, Thomas, Lisbon. LlVEaroot, AUG. I.—Wind variable.—Arrived the Gam.. malier, Brown, from Valparaiso; Elizabeth Wood, Crosby, Barbadoes ; and Nautilus, Baltic. Sailed the Ann and Jane, Cocks, for Berbice ; Euphemia, Duff, Vera Cruz ; Beaver, Ed monds, New York ; Scotland, Robinson, ditto ; Liverpool steamer, Fayrer, ditto ; Cumore, Chaplain, Newfoundland ; Marmora, Barnes, Constantinopl e ; an d Pearl, Cove, Malaga.. Off port the Susannah, Coming, from Savannah. VESSELS SPOKEN WITH.—The James Hunt, Liverpool to Grenada, 13th ult., in lat. 36, lon. 35 ; Halifax, Liverpool to Halifax, 26th, in lat. 50, lon. 13 ; Patriot, Lisbon to Newfoundland, 20th ult., in lat. 42, 10n..36, by the Gunge, Younghusband, arrived at Liverpool ; Elizabeth, White. Barbadoes to Liverpool, 30th June, in lat. 38, lon. 47, by the Caledonia, Hartnell, arrived at Cork ; Scotiair from Hamburg, 23d ult., in lat. 48, lon. 26 ; Emerald, from London, 27th, in lat. 50, lon. 15, by the Palemon, Beggs, arrived at Falmouth; Mary, London to Quebec, Bth ult., in lat. 46, lon. 51, by the Hannah, Smith, arrived. at Cork ; Sarah, Quebec to Liverpool, 25th ult., in lot. 49, lon. 18, by the Helen and Elizabeth, arrived at Cork ! Columbia of Whitehaven, 30th June, off Bay Chaleur Providence, Peacock, 4th ult,, in lat. 46, lon. 55, by the Lowther, Nicholson, arrived at Shields ; Eliza (French whaler), 6th Feb., with 1,150 barrels; Cambridge, Born" bay to Canton, by the Good Success, arrived at Madras Anna, Kerr, Liverpool to North America 15th ?t• lat. 56, lon. 18, by th e S app hi ra, Brown, arrived at Y"' THE WESLEYANS. Mr. O'Connell has pub lished another letter addressed to the Ministers and Office bearers of the Wesleyan Methodist Societies of Manchester, which begins thus-4. Wesleyan Methodists : Your reply to my first letter is a most exquisite piece of impertinence; an indiscribable olio of anger, rancour, and absurdity." THE MARKETS--(YESTERDAY•) COAL MAR. , a. d , d Adair's 6 nd Newmarch 2 1 9 Bell, Robson & C o. H art l ey 18 6 Eden Main 2 3 0 Clark's Hartl e y lB t , Walls End Belmont 22 Leaze's Main l7 6 Walls EndßraddylPsHetton 3 Ord's Redhugh Pi 21 Pontop Windsor cton l7 11 Walls End Hart1ep001...,.... : 4 • - ' 3 SS Smith's Pontop l7 6 Walis End Kelloe 0 South Tanfichl lB 0 Walls End Brown's Deanery 2 0 Tanfield Moor 2 2. 9 W ills End Gordon Townley l9 0, Walls End Pontop 80we5...1 1 ., 9 West Hartley Wvlam. 2O 3 Wa.lis End Tennant .... .... , 0 Walls End Brown's l9 3 Walls End Tees Hetton .... `' 0 j 6 „ Walls End Hetton 2l 5 Ditto unscreened Walls End Hotspur Walls End Kiliingworth 2l 0 Brampton Main .......... ..... 17 i ,Ships arrived since last market day 37 . _..—.. .KET.-Aug. 2, PLATE SUITED FOR PRESENTATION. -- Elegant or Splendid Silver Inkstands —Silver Waiters of ever"; size—Silver Cups, N ew an d S econd-hand—Fifty variet i es 0' Silver Tea and Coffee Services —Gold Snuff Boxes—Silv er Table Snuff Boxes—Silver Epergnes --Silver Bread Basket*. And many other articles of Plate adapted for Presentation as Testimonials, &c., may be selected from, in the Show Rooms a t T. COX SAVORY'S, Working Silversmith, Goldsmith, and Watchmaker, 47, hill, London (S even D oors from a dd ress i ng Gracechurch-street). N.B. By a paid letter stating the a mo unt a the testimonial r equ i re d, drawings and particulars o f var ious articles suited for the p r i ce an d o bj ec t can b e f orwarded to a ny part of the country. Corn- PLATE.—A. B. SAVORY and SONS Manu facturing Sil versm ith s , N o . 14 , C orn hill , London (oprtsiNt the Bank of England). The best wrought FIDDLE PATTE areSPOONSand weights recommended, FORKS, a 7s. t butthe ou a n r c t e. icles T m he ay fol b le e vv i ll lighter or heavier, at the same price per ounce. oz. z. .1. £. a a. 12 Fiddle Pattern Silver Table Spoons 30 at 7 2... 10 5 ‘ A 2 ditto Dessert ditto 20 7 2... 7 3 ". 12 ditto Table Forks 3O 7 2...1 0 15 7, 2 ditto 12 ditto Dessert ditto 20 7 2... 7 3,' 0 1 ditto Gravy Spoons lO 7 2... 3 rA : Soup Ladle 10 7 2... 3 , 'll 4 ditto Sauce ditto lO 7 5.., t 16 • 4 ditto Salt Spoons (gilt strong) .............. , 1 0 0 1 ditte Fish Slice ............................ ~." ,2 10 i containing detailed Lists e 121 pair Tea Spoons lO 7 i i . 3 1 ~ Sugar Tongs (strong) ... " 0 15 • .. ....... .. of o t the Prices -, various Patterns of Silver Spoons and Fork ) , Silver Tea O w ir pam d d i i i t t , t h t o o let Coffee Ser- vices, and of the different may be had on application, or ;1 in answer to a paid letter ; the Plate Roo of this Esta blishment contain a large selection f ms complete a service. o every article requisite to will bealssti,enletsinotfoPtlhaetedeoWuneetrey, On the 30th ult. B 12f TH S . daughter. , at B righton, Mrs. Somers Clarke, of a dau On the 30th tilt g On the 30th ult., in Curzon -street, the wife of Franchter. * d at W a l mer, Mrs. Gilbert Barney , of a Francis Haw' kips, M.D., of a daughter. On the 31st ult., Mrs. H enr y H ayman, York-place, nr cirn r ton, of a daub 0 • MARID. On th e 31 st ult. , at Tunbri R dge, E the Rev. R. W. Browne , M.A., Fellow of St. John's College, Oxford, &c., to Caro line Bradf or d, e ld est daughter of the Rev. Sir Charles Hardingeo, Bart., of Boundes-park, Kent. On the Ist inst., at St. Pancras, Mr, George Abbott., Of Cardiff, to Eliza Jane, youngest daughter of the late Bosjr.ovin D'Aranda Esq., of Billericay, Essex. DIED. On the 30th tilt., at Herne-hill, Mrs. Powell, aged 81. On the 26th ult., at Glocester-place, Brighton Sarah, rel. lict of the late Lieutenant-Colonel James Henry Frith, C. B. °f the Madras Artillery, and CommAsary-General of Ordnance. On the 30th ult. , at Sandgate, France s , e ld est daughter or the late W. E. Tomlin, Esq., of Riby-grove, Lincolnshire. , On the 30th ult., Mr. Thomas lxod, of th e B or ough o' Southwail, aged 82. On the 31st ult„ at Kensington-Gore, Sarah, the Wife of Thomas Simpson, Esq, On the 31st ult., at Balsham, Cambridgeshire, John Straces"9 Esq., aged 69. London: Printed and Published by AIUIIDO YOUNG, ° f • No. 112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Stra 1. 0 the county of Middlesex,—Saturday, August 3, 1639.