The Sun. — London, England, 1803-12-08 00:00:00

übj 41 of this Bill was to invest the Guernment of I r ,nd with extraordinary powers, to be exercised mes of great emergency, when the ordinary *mils 01 taw could not he complied with. Upon these cc ,,,ion; it was thought necessary that Courts Mar. tial should be resorted to. That being the case he could not conceive any reason why the Courts Mar. tial under this Bill should be different from other Coons Martial . . if the argument about Officers - being under age was good at all, it was good in every case, as well , under the Mutiny Bill, as under the present one. Under the Mutiny Aft it was well known that Officers and Soldiers'were tried for their lives, and yet no such regulation had ever been introduced.. A Clause of this ' ,attire had been proposed upon a former occa. riion, and was rejected, because it would in mail) , cases prevent the assembling of the Courts Martial, and as they were only resorted to in cases of great emergency, when rite ordinary Courts could not sit, the consequence was, that persons could not be tried at all. Besides, this regulation would be very dif. ficult to be carried into prgtice, because a Prose.. cution might be stopped in limine, by objeaing to an Officer's age, and it could not be supposed that every Officer was to carry about him a certificate of his baptism. The Hon. Gentleman seemed to be aware of the inconvenience that would result from his own Clause, by• proposing to give the Lord Lieu. tenant a .diapensing power : upon all these grounds he should oppoie the Clause. Mr. WILIURF.ORCS explained. Mr. WINDHAM objetted to the Clause, and principally upon the ground, that it would make Martial Law inconsistent with itself. If there was any difference between different kinds of Courts . Martial, this Clause onht rather to he introduced into the Mutiny Bill, than into this Bill because the questions which were to be decided in ordinary Courts Martial, required in general more knowledge and more experience than would be necessary on the Courts Martial under this Bill. As to what his Hon. Friend had said about 'Officer; upon ordinary Courts Martial ading with more caution, from a consideration that they were trying those who might afterwards.try theM, he could not help con. bidering that as an unju s t censure, because it was impossible to suppose that Officers could be aauated by any motives of that kind. Another objelion had to this Clause was, that it would not produce the drat which was intended, because it was ab. surd to suppor,c that in a great coercive measure like the present, the introduCtion of this Clause could at all 'operate to mitigate its powers. He confessed, that if he was disposed to entertain any apprehension of a had use being made of the great powers conferred by this Bill, it would not be of the young men, because they would be in general attuaterkby those warm, generous, and benevolent feelings which charaitterize youth, but of those who, from a long consideration oldie subjeet,had their feel. ings more irritated against the persons they had to try. He wished now to advert"to an assertion of a Right Hon. Gentleman, that the necessity of this Bill was universal) , admitted. This proposition he begged leave to deny ; .there was a great difference between .not being prepared to deny its necessity, and being ready to admit it. He had never affirmed that this .. h. not necessary }Stir it dittnot 'therefore fol. low, -that he. admitted • that it' was necessary. A man ignorant of Kithematics, would not probably take upon himself to deny the truth of any of the propositions of Euclid, but it would not follow from that, that he was convinced of • their truth. This was his situation : he was unable from want of evi. dence to deride upon the question, though he was ready to admit that the inclination of his mind led him to think that the Bill was necessary. But this belief was not founded upon the language of Mini. stets, because, if he was inclined to give them cre. die, he "must • necessarily he led to an opposite con. elusion. With regard to the Clause now .before the House, he had only again to say, that, in his dpi, ''oion, it would be pertealy useless, and he thought it would he better if his Hon. Friend would exer. ciA his .caution rather in examining the evidence upon which the measure•itsell was founded, than i n suggesting Alterations of this kind. rslr. WILBERF3aCr . eXAtifiC , I. , _ . _ _ Dr. LAIVRENCE disaipruved of the Amend. mlnt, because. if it was necessary to have recourse to Courts Martial, he would rather assimilate to the ordinary Courts Martial, than make thetn ferent. For instance, he-wished that the President of the Courts Martial under this Bill, should always he'd Field Officer, he wished that the numbers should be the same as in common Courts Martial, and he wished that there should he the same means of re. visiog their c•)nddt that there was tinder the cum. min Mutiny Bill ; in short, he wished that all Courts Martial should be upon the same lie wished to observe that the preamble of this Bill supposed that the Rebellion in Ireland was now ac. tivilly in existence, which by no' means coincided with the language constantly held by His Majesty's Ministers. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER denied that the Preamble of the Bill stated the Re: hellion to exist, and was 31.11 C that if the Learned Gentleman had read it attentively, he wbuld not ,have ftlatip that assertion. The Learned Gentleman, though he did not wish to limit the age of the 011 cm, yet was of opinion , that their number ought to he as great as it was on common Courts Martial. But it should he ter:Lint:if:led that it might he neces. nary in Ireland to suonnon.Courts Martial on sudden ecigencies, and it would be much more difficult to wisemble a sufficient number of Officers than it would be in ordinary easel. When the Bill first passed in' Ireland, the stn,illest number of Officers that could c:institute a CAM was three ; that number was afterwards increased in that House' to seven.-- Another alteration whivli had b.-en introduced Was, that in cases Of death, two thirds of the Members pre ent must C(Aittir in the sentence of death, or it Could not be passed ; consequently if there were o nly preleut, five must concur or the Prisoner OWL, nut be put to death. Dr LAW RENC ft BE!' X t LEY said, that although the tstvrS had nor given any reasons to thew the reeessity of the 1301, yet as he thought it was cessary, he shouhi not oppose it. His principal tea. ROa for rising at present, was to do away some tin. which he con,c)ved had been thrown upon an Hon. Relation of Ilis, who lately held a high command in Ireland. He therefore now wished to give notice, that he should, upon an early day, move fur the pro,ittaion of a Joe Papers, which he . was convinced, would clear away some aversions which ' had been thrown, upon the Hon. Officer who lately commanded Ilk Majesty's Forces in Ireland. The CHAIVCELLOk of the EXCHEQUER said, he wished the Hon. Gentleman would state the terms to which he alluded. - Admiral BERKELEY said, he thought it would be better to state them when the question came to be discussed , . But he had no objeftion to state that the expression to which he alluded was used by the CHANCELLOR Of the ExcHEQUER, who had stated, 1 that early intelligence of the transaaion had been given to the Commander in Chief in Ireland. 1 Thr CHANCELLOR of the,EXCHEQUER de. nied that he hadused such an expression. It had been said in the course of the Debate now alluded to, that no information of the intended rising had been given to the Commander in Chief. In reply he had stated, that information had been given to the Commander in Chief, and, not to the Lord Mayor, but to the superintending Magistrate of the Police of Dublin. But he could nut rest satis. fied without taking the earliest opportunity of de. daring that nothing could be so far from his mind as any intention to imply that there was Ihe slightest failure of duty in the Commander in Chief ; he bad never even heard such a thing insinuated. When. ever the subjeifi came to be dikussed, he was sure the conduit of that gallant Officer would be found to be as free from reproach as the Civil Govern. ment. of Ireland ; the result woult,the was sure be creditable to both. Admiral BERKELEY said, he did think blame . was to be inferred from the expression, used by the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, that early notice had been given, to the Commander in Chief. The CH ANC E LLO r, of the Exc H F.QU It It said across the House, gg I said no such thin" Admiral BERKELEY said he understood the expression, and he did infer blame him it, and so did the Commander in Chief himself. The CHANCELLOR of .the . EXCHEQUER again repeated, that, lie hail said no such thing, he could not have used.it, for he did not rezolleCt the time at which the information wal given. •• Mr. J. C. BERESFURD said, that any body who knew the situation of Dublin, and particularly that part where the insurrection broke out, must know that such an event was very possible to oc. cur, without blame being attributable to any body. The insurreetion broke out in a very obscure part of Dublin, in one of, the darkest nights he ever saw ; the insurgents only advanced three streets before they were dispersed ; the whole was over' in an hour; of this he was pettedly ',Ore, because he was out the whole time; therefore,• in his opinion, no blame wns attributable in any quarter. Mr. WILEERTORCE'S Clause was then nega. tived, and the Report agreed to. On the Motion that the Bill be read a third time to-morrow, Or. T. GRENVILLE rose, not to oppose the Bill, but to protest against the assertion which had been made, that the necessity of the Bill was universally admitted.—:—He proceeded to contend, that the Ministeri had advanced no ar. guments, had adduced no proofs to skew that this measure was necessary. When the. Bill was introduced at the close of the last Session, Ministers said that the urgency of the ease was a reason why they could not go into proof upon the subjed ! but no such argument could be used now, 'because the Bill would not expire for Some time, and therefore he could norconceive why Ministers would not now lay the necessary Documents before the House. Af. ter arguing at some length, 'to shew the propriety of laying lull information before the House upon so important a subjed, he 'adverted to the notice which had been given by his .Hon. Friend, Adm. BERKE— LEY; be Confessed he was surptized that Ministers should have received that notice in such,a manner, because, as they hid often expressed a wish that the condud Of the Irish Government upon the occasioin alluded to, should'be inquired into, they ought ra. ther to rejoice at the opportunity which was now given Of clearing up that transadion, particularly as he understood the Hon. Admiral to say, that he brought 'forward the sulijed at the desire of the , Hon. Officer who lately commanded His Majesty's Forces in Ireland. Mr. Secretary YORKE said, that no aspersion had been cast upon the Commander in Chief of the Forces in Ireland by his Right Hon. Friend (the CHANCELLOR of the ExcHEQuita.) If,. however, any charge was to be brought against the Irish Go. vernment, it was ready to be met but if any charge was 'to be brought . forward, let it be so in a regular way. 'There was one fad which he wished to notice, as it concerned a Noble Relation of his; and which lie had not an opportunity of noticing before. It had been observed, that on the day of the Insurrection In Dublin the Lord Lieu. tenant went to the Phcenix Park. Thee — lad was, that his residence was then in the Phcenix Park. He came to town. in the morning, to receive such information as the subordinate Officers of Govern. ment were capable of giving ; and it became then a question whether he should remove to the Capital. It appeared advisable at that time that he should not remove, in order to prevent unnecessary alarm, as great alarm would inevitably have been created by the sudden removal of the Lord Lieutenant and his family to the Castle. It could not be said that in returning to the Plitenix Park he wished to escape danger, as it was evident he would have been more ' out of dater in the Castle, guarded by four Regi. ments of Soldiers, than in the Pbcenix Park, with no other guard than a Serjeant and sixteen men, Same explanatory conversation ensued betw een Mr. W. 141.t0T, the CHANCELLOR of the Ex. cniQuea, and Mr. Wistooma, relative to an ex. - ptession which had been used in the course of the discussion, after which the Bill was ordered to be read a third time. to. morrow. Mr. Hormousa brought up the Report of th e East India Bonds Bill, which was read and agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to. morrow. The Malt Tax Bill passed through a Committee, in which rovisiust. was made for raising money on 1 the credit of the duties, and for making good the deficiencies of last year.—Report to.murruw. Mr. J. C. BEIESPORD,g4VC notice of his inten. Lino to move to.morrow for leave to bring i n a Bill for regulating die Corn Trade of Dublin. The Hoiise went into a Committee on the Pension Duty Bill, in which similar provisions were made as in the Malt Tax Bill, and a clause was also added, on the Motion of Mr. VANSITTART, to exonerate the town of Newcastle.upon-Tyne from the pay ment of the Tax, on the duty of is. per ehaldron on coals formerly payable to the Duke .of Rich. mond, but since purchased by Government, and respeaing the liability of the Town of Newcastle to pay which, some doubt, Mr. VANSITTART said, had arisen.—Report to.morrow. Sir W. SCOTT moved the Order of the Day for the further consideration of the Report of the Curates' Residence Bill. Mr. CREEFEY said, he thought the Bill one of severe pains and penalties against the Clergy, that it went to invest the. Bishops with an arbitrary power, and that it violated the laws tf pioperty. He did not wish to impede public business by counting out the House, but he hoped in return that a day or two would be given him to consider the measure. Some conversation ensued between the Citittr cuLLoa of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. Calavat, the ATTORNEY GRNERA.L I Sir W. SCOTT, and Mr. Hosts; relative to the,day of discussion, when it was at length agreed to discuss the Bill to-morrow. The Bill was then recommitted, and the Report ordered to be received to-morrow. Mr. VANSITTART moved, that an humble Ad. dress should he presented to His Majesty, praying that His Majesty would be graciously pleased to cause to lx laid before the House an account of all Stuns issued in pursuance of At l stlii;s:s o ,:hzt House, and not made good by .Parliament.--Ordered. The Committees of Supply and Ways and Means were deterred till Friday, The Portugal _Wine Bonding Bill ; the Exchequer Bills Bill ; the Curates' Relief Bill ; the Expiring Laws Bill, and the Sugar Drawback Bill, severally p li ed through' Committees,—Reports to-morrow. Adjourned at seven o'clock till to-morrow. MAILS. illiMbUrgh I PRICE OF STOCKS, nAY AT TWALVAL O'CLOCK. Consols - • 55 a 56 a scf I Omnium • . 6stgs THE SUN. 1110LIM QUIIII DIMS MOM AUDIAT L ONDON, DECEMBER 8, 1803. Ws are, upon refletlion, confirmedin our feeling of the propriety of abstaining, at present, from all comment on the very interesting Correspondence which we yesterday were enabled to lay before our Readers, and more especially as it is likely to become to.morrow the subjea of conversation in the House of Commons. One thing, however, cannot fail to strike the most superficial Reader, and that is, the great impropriety on the part of the Minister, of per mitting what was wholly a public and political question, becoming the subjeft of personal di*. cussion between the two Personages nearest and dearest to the hearts of Englishmen. The talent, spirit, and dignified firmness, tempered with mode. ration, with which the Primo a urges his claims, are, as they deserve to be, the theme of general admiration and praise. TIM forenoon . two Hein:burgh Mailt, out of three due, reached Town. The following are their `most important contents : CONSTANTINOPLE, Ocr• as.--Great numbers of Troops are assembling in the vicinity of this Capi. tal, the destination of which is said to be the Morea, which is still believed to be threatened by a Foreign Force. Six Russian and Austrian Ships which have been taken up to carry powder and artillery, have already sailed for that Peninsula, all the places of which will be put in a strong state* of defence, and Batteries on the Coasts, The Cap tain Pacha will emain with the Fleet off' the Coast of the Morea daring the whole winter. In the course of the last fortnight there have been several fires here, supposed to have been caused by the discontented populace. Strong patroles now parade all the streets of Constantinople during the night, and, except in the quarter of the Franks, no person is permitted to be in the streets by night, either in the city or the suburbs. Both the English and French Ambassadors have lately had several Conferences with the }tits: Er. rallot; the Porte, however, is determined to abide by 'its system of Neutrality. It is now asserted that the Porte has concluded a Convention with the Bays of Egypt, according ~to which the Government of that Country is to be placed on the same footing as before the arrival of the French, The Bey, will in consequence regain that authority which the Porte has hitherto refused them this statement, however, is not official, and no Shtp has arrived here from Alexandria for a consi. derable time. MALAGA ) OCT. 28.- The epidemic:ll malady still continues in this City, where hum 3+ to 42 persons die daily. It has rt-tw exierhied to the tlis. • tance of seaven leagues from the City. GiNOA, Nair. S. —To-day three Ligurian Shill sailed from our Harboers for .the protection of our Trade against the piratical Corsairs. Oar liar. bour is still open, nor have any English Ships of War yet made their appearance. HAGUE, NOV. 22.—The Ip)pcs of Peace tvhich we had cherished in consequence of some new op applications, having now entirely vanished, the preparations. against England will be pro;ecuted with redoubled vigour, and the Expedition will be in readiness the beginning of next . month. — Oar Squadron in the Texcl, consisting of four Ships of the Line and six Frigates, is nearly ready to sail. AMSTERDAM. Nov. 26.—The German Troops in our pay, destined by lot to take part in the - Expedition against Eniland, arc, the first Bat.. talian of the tst Regiment of 'Waldeck ; the id Battalion of the ad Regiment ; a Grenadier Battalion of Waldeck ; and two Grenadier Com. ponies of Saxe—Gotha. The German Troops amount to about tsoo men. . At the head of the colleCtive Corps of 9000 men is a Lieutenant-General, with • two Majur.Generals, five Colonels, Soma further conversation took place in the House of Commons yesterday, relative to Ireland.- 'Ad. miral Boaguar( gave notice of his intention to. move °c an early day for certain Psperi, with a view to clear the charafter of General Fox, the late Com. mander in Chief in Ireland, from an aspersion which he conceived to have been cast uporr it by the Mi. ouster. Mr. ADDINGTON denied that he had thrown any aspersion on the charaadrofG!neral Fox; but it was contended on the other side, that the a4per• Sian arose out of the statements of Ministers, with respect to the late Insurretti,n. It creates, , every day that passes over our hearth the most melancholy refteetinns i n the minas of sg, thinking men, to see the Nation still govern 4 by tlelos more those sdvih sus omi tng i it has a not a pericz confidence. Can And' t hing b of danger like i ll. , body ,by personal civiiiw for supports present, than to see the Minister courting !felt demanding it by measures ca;culated to 5:04 Country 1 The °Ned seems to be .tether to ge t through the difficulty of the day , th in to look to any great or extensive measure, calculated for the safety or the benefit of t he. Nation. Jr is this disposition which betray s Ministers into the . grossest inconsistencies. Th e y never failed, pre. instead of vious •to the late Insurreetion, to represent Ireland Irish Insurce o el f ::Every Irish Member who was paying his court to better affeaed than it had been for years before. them took the hint, and we beard of nothing but the Loyalt y the justness of these I:epresentations. What do we heat the on __ lr a is s h uTi t c h ie i n s twca comment Infonilleo:eudpobny the an d what Ot nowl—Precisely the same lang ua g e: ing the Public to lows ?—the renewal of the H abeas Corpus Suspenl sion, and the Martial La w fills t We ' do not think these me as ures unnecessary , but it is insult; acc o t npanied wi th solemn assurances of general tranquillity. We know not whether Mr: Atool NCTO* be m ost propose them , of a dupe or a deceiver—or whether he be sonwrirtle one, and sometimes the other__ but what confidencei from the Public earl that Minister expea; who 0 " upon them to arm on account of h ostile ArrnAMCPte w hich surely h o must have known not to h av e existed—who-corO.. forts us with the hopes of " profound Peace," op"ii the eve of War, and who congratu lates himself 4tha the Public with the state of tranquillity in Ireland, while an. Insurreaion is hatching under the yeti walls of the Castle the I wht" ' • ada With another Administration in i nt Lion and the different Powers on the C°nfine:- rihci : confidence, we should entertain great kV" w-e-4 of the intervention of the Court of St. Peteriburgb in our favour,-but at present we doubt Wick °, important interference in that varier. The Court of Madrid has of late years been 04 kttle famed for skill in Diplomacy as in Viarfar°° ent yet are we sure that they are n ot at this moot cajoling our Ministers I Are we sure that di c.. they arc not playing the game which BONAPARTIt tales? If, as we believe, before many months are passed, we shall be sit War with Spain, to what for haV« possible subterfuge will Mini sters resort, ing temporized so fatally f o r the Country I BO nto the until more firmness and spirit are infused i Cabinet, we shall look in vain for those ; v.goroue at the measures which it becomes t his Country present-crisis to Adopt. When we speak of the situation of the NA tinny and the difficulties with which we are surri,nileds e i nert do not ler i: be stipp sed that we m ean th difficulty of resisting liivasion'—let M to inisters look protrade3 War, and then let them consider. whether they really poss ess the m-ans e4l of counter aning the evils w ith which vvo are oriouncl--