The Sun. — London, England, 1844-06-13 00:00:00

_________ that it proved that there was no necessity for the _ . _ ----sse—__. driver „ , . _ pecuniary encouragement of the State. He was The 0 ' • e , ~ F (-• 'Ai 411.1' S. Jane 12 sorry to revert to the education question ; but s oeseseert took the Chair at Four o'clock. k vDISsENTERs' CIIAPELS Biel, ' the hon. and Learned Gentleman had adverted to the ,r• IVIAsN presented petitions , schools which had recently been erected, and he must Lore c against this Bill. be permitted to say that the schools in the diocese a t e ~,, • MANNERS presented similar petitions of Armagh had been erected in opposition Aulti..l ~leestershire. ito the national system of education. His eyes r ''-V , )-NS also presented similar petitions. had been opened to the real nature of the f ssanr t i e rgeant alUllt'llY presented petitions in • or the lai Protestant Church Establishment by their hosti :l fr om ; imeriels. 1i ty to the nationals system of education. aili ° 'cl INGISSTRIS presented petitions against the H e h a d h ear d i n hi s own pa r i s h sen ti men t s ex p resse d f• ro m Staffordshire. n ir a l : SCIIOL EF IE 1, D c presented a petition from against that system, and he had heard sermons preached trenehain • 0-►• the and knew a late instance in which a against plan, 111. „ , aselinst toe aids Charter Bill. bishop, who was appointed by the Right Hon. Baronet, wets "f AY presented a petition from the in his first charge expressed himself as strongly L J ‘2. 7? _ : _t - Edinburgh, praying fora tax on m ichinery. opp ised to the national system of education. This L e i e _ r €t e e.. MANNERS presented petitions from to eS r : . rseire, proved to him (Colonel Rawdon) that these ministers in fermi'. of protection to agriculture. of the Church in Ireland were not the ministers of fie ' IN GESTRE resented similar petitions peace. The time was now come when it was neces ns State de , p - Sir J . ' r . se're• nary to ask whether the Government were in bi sse IV ALSII presented petitions against the i earnest in their support of the national system of Air ntsrs Chapels Bill. education in Ireland. He thought they were bound from T . EGP,..I,TON presented similar petitions to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether he was Lord Rol ton ' Lord ' As e ~.., acting fairly in not giving the whole weight of the test th l irse , Y pr santed petitions from Belrast Government in support of a system fe• which the k r. e Dissenteee' Chapels Bill. country was taxed. The Noble Lord, the Secretary Ini tial e G OBSON postponed the Appeal in CH- for the Colonies, had originated the national system of btr A '‘••ses Bill fur a fortnight. education in Ireland, and would that Noble, Lord now 14 l IED PARTS OF COUNTIES BILL. allow that system, for want of protection, to wither? The e r. se es , : self • "s -1: moved that the House should resolve Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, had made use of auntie! flte a Committee on the Detached Parts of . ess l•ss argument in his speech last night than he (Colonel s e? , i i A , Bill. Rawdon) had ever heard in any speech before. His tatmei t ,TZEßY moved that the Bill should be speech was made up merely of quotations of eminent Afte r th at six months. men. Those eminent men were distinguished for Se ll° '' a few words from Mr. SCOTT and Mr. M. being in advance of public opinion of their day, and he Ilse e ,, 11 1 t he amendment was withdrawn, and the Bill (Colonel Rawdon) believed that if those eminent ordered to be sent to a Select Committee up stairs. men could come again amongst us, they would still () e the ALIENS BILL. be in advance of the public opinion of the day. read a motion of Mr. iiurr, the above Bill was He wished to address himself to the Right Hon. the 2 6t s h e cond time, and ordered to be committed on Gentleman at the head of the Government; he wished instant. to allude in most distinct terms to the declaration of the On th S4 OKE PROHIBITION BILL. Duke of Wellington, that the present Church of Ireland 'wets ~• e Motion o f M r . MACKINNON, the House was th e f oun d a ti on on w hi c h th e un i on d e pended. F o r NI er r Committee on this Bill pro forma, when it his own part he could not see why the Act of Union acted to be re-committed on the 26th inst. was to be thrust down the throats of the people of Th e COUNTY COURTS BILL. Ireland. The great object of the Hon. Member for by 44 ,, re Port on the County Courts Bill was brought Sheffield was to alter in some measute the laws re .. e r ee • Is s i c ,,elved. lating to the temporalities of the Church. With such O at h ' - "XLIARY FIRES IN SUFFOLK. opinions how could he (Col. Rawdon) much longer the ed . e 'notion for reading the order of the day for consent to be a party to that Act of Union, if he were Irel s l'urned debate on the Established Church of to be told that it rested on the Irish Church Este , ne e se ate eiS t r ng nut, - blishment ? No reason whatever had been shown, Lsesn - ,,,`• I 4NER GIBSON said he wished to put a that the Act of Union would not be firmer and w St at °- t 0 the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary stronger by placing the temporalities of the Church kebi eet e for the Home Department in reference to a on a proper and equitable footing. The Right estea r "„ Of considerable importance in that part of the Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government (Sir 14 Sias! ,``, 'ith which lie was cannected—the county R. Peel), on the recent discussion of the Dissenters' ketei a °l . He alluded to the alarming spread of in- Chapels Bill, had shown a wish to do what was la seiv rY fires in Suffolk, Norfolk, and Essex. He had right. He (Colonel Rawdon) had recorded his vote la w a d Many communications on the subject, and if for the Government in support of that Bill, although were 4. - Ithi e h , Lo attempt to enumerate the different fires he believed his constituents (Id not participate Ols e l in n ad taken place in those counties since Mi- in his approval of it. This would show sf s hat as, the sum total would astonish the Members the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) that if he Ita lie , Ho e s- . se The subject was creating great were disposed and determined to do justice he had eo uilt ',Y, and he might almost say dismay in those but to throw himself on that side of the House, and he h m le s. lie was himself a magistrate of Suffolk, then all measures brought forward by him and ''f ti le - ! nailer opportunities of forming some estimate founded on those principles would be carried teunt weer and of the labouring classes in that triumphantly. Though he (Colonel Rawdon) had I _,kles si ?' and it wa s his firm belief, that generally the his predilections, he was an independent mem sostrters of that county were a well disposed and in- ber, and if the Right Honourable Baronet *ithi as clan, and he believed they would shrink showed the disposition to do justice he should be very k m horror from such a crime as that of incendiarism: willing to come forward and give him his I lkl ey : believed that the occupying tenants and the support. He, the Right Honourable Gentleman, c 't le a - a n generally were actuated by feelings had hut to be just—to fear not. In speak esktileness towards the labouring classes, and he ii,g the other evening on the Bill he had god t air "nrnerate many cases in which individuals referred to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir Robert t kilr -en steps to ameliorate their condition by Peel) had finished a beautiful eulogium on the the y ti them allotments. Notwithstanding this, E s tablished Church, by ex p ress i ng his hope and N ia had the alarming fact before them that in- opinion that she would never allow her doctrines to :tat se j i f i' s ns to a large extent existed. Having be thrown against the et erna l p r i nc iples of justice. l e ,''' grounds of the question, what he wanted This had been put forward to the people in Parlia was - „, ° ,w from the Right Honourable Gentleman went, but it had been put forward in a more emphatic eses'a" n elher the subject of ineendiarism in those s hape, in an address to public opinion out of doors, ss eC had occupied the full and serious attention of which was signed by many Irish representatives, Si r ilestv's Government. to which he was sorry that circumstances did s 'tete ta ' GRAHAM said, that with regard to the not permit him to attach his na-ne. It was !vi -44(14:"! saith which the Hon. Gentleman prefaced dent that many of the Liberal representatives ae rilaisti.on, he was happy to say from the inquiries from Ireland had lost all confidence in that House,. risPraise e Into the su bj e ct, that he concurred in the from which they appealed to a sense of justice outside e the Honourable Gentleman had bestowed on the walls of Parliament. In that address, to which lor t rY, tenants, and labourers of the county he begged to call the attention of the Right Hon. ..se w ie h the Hon. Gentleman was a magistrate. Baronet at the head of the Government, was N4 B , also prepared to admit that incendiarism pre- demanded the recognition of perfect equality in 'te le .° a deplorable extent throughout a portion regard to ecclesiastical and educational ar9trigemer?ts : _se a a county of Suffolk and the adjacent parts of between the several religious communities .. into which a f r a nd throughout the county of Norfolk. He the population of the country was divided. `What bon. e adY answered the que-tion put to him by the Gerry could be more moderate than that demand? It Antleman, by stating that this painful subject was what had been carried on in practice in ssty.: -- ' e ,C„uPied the serious attention of her Ma- England and Scotland. They neglected to *it l -„seovernment. It had been his duty to confer carry out that principle with regard to !stie t r i e lord lieutenants and magistrates of those Ireland. It was matter of history that both Houses at . ,y,: e s and every effiert had been made by her Ma- of Parliament stood pledged to redress the grievances ka eh s ss overnment, as he had stated on a former oc- of It eland, and could any man say that the ri m e' to detect the perpetrators of this dreadful state of the Established Church of Ireland was Si. Many fires might easily be the work of one not a grievance to the Catholic population of ;_ 4 lle ar Y .--- (Hear, hear.) The c h a ra c t e r which that country? He denied that the Act of Union 'N. el n. Gentleman had so justly given of the labour- tied up their hands with regard to this subject; but, east any of that district, precluded the supposition at all events, it should be recollected that the Parlia -444 snar considerable portion of the peasantry had merit of that day was very differently constituted to 'Per e concerned in these fires. He thought they what it would be now. If they wished to avoid a I'lio t he work of very few individuals, revolution they ought to adopt a principle of common "sti se w ere probably actuated by personal sense.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") He was sorry to tliiit e s • He assured the Hon. Gentleman that if the say that, in the present state of Ireland, foreign lat e •.' Parties were d e te c t e d, th e law should be put P owers h a d too much to offer to her. It was not safe kt e r leeuti on with the least possible delay. to leave things in their present state — (Hear , .) He 4 e. e ti ' IL GIBSON wished to ask the Right Hon. k new it m i g ht he said that this was not patriotic, and 'se s Zan whether, in the course of his inquiries on he knew how easily it was to get up a cheer in . that l et t , kl ss J e nt, he had been led to the conclusion that the House by a contrary sentiment, but he maintained ' l st i' s spirit which had induced men to set 'lir e ° Premises might be induced by a pees- that their business was to tell the truth—(Hear) eeetror distress over which individuals had no and he would again repeat that foreign powe rs had too much to offer. He • had lately conversed with ' l ' t e ela te l s , and whether the Government were many foreigners, particularly with Protestant Ger `ae e `t to take into their consideration mans, who had themselves broached the subject to him. nth on dition, genera lly, o f the agricultural poor, lie had talked much with Protestant Germans and a s a Vi ew of ascertaining whether there might not others, but in the whole course of his experience, on tset , e'inething at the root of society, an under cur- the Continent, he had never found a man who could kiss an it were, which was producing this reckless- understand the state of their relations. He thought ~11 , 1 1_ ,`1 i nsensibility to the consequences of crime. they ought to take warning from what philosophical p e ers ' r e GRAHAM said his inquiries had led him writers like Kohl said upon this subject. He declared th m `nriclusi on that the causes were in no degree with all sincerity his belief that sooner or later the '''e,itti,„ 4 , 4 ture —(Hear, hear.) He believed that the continuance of this state of things would lead to L 1, 1) 1 17 of the peasantry were not implicated. a revolution in Ireland. He would not tres '`q le, u• RUSSELL inquired whether any persons p a s s any longer on the attention of the House. Si r e..,,n tried for the offence ? He had given utterance to his sincere beliet, Nal .• G - RA HAM said there had been four or five e. i ,_ , that the Church temporalities were the cause of much . ~ W ity ns at the last Spring Assizes. irritation, and that the union itself was weakened by ' Ai r „IT OF EKROR.—MR. O'CONNELL. the present state of things. He would only, in con :ailed s'• RULLER said considerable anxiety pre- elusion, appeal shortly to what he hoped still existed P ros i',','' .0 the effect which the trial of the writ of in that House, namely, an independent party. There :tits ",t,be House of Lords would have on the cir- was such a party in that House in former days, and If he c° 'le wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman from the opinions expressed by many Hon. Gentlemen N'in 111(1 say when the appeal would come on for k• opposite he hoped that such a party still existed. i. i r a - He hoped that party would show a disposition to act ' e ve se' GRAHAM said he had every reason to be- fairly towards Ireland, and that they would act in ' i t sseel at the writ of error had arrived in London , accordance with the dictates of justice and of comtnon ‘e st ,,'''' . arrive in the course of the next four-and- sense . e r'il ec i fl ours. So far as the Government was con - Sir J. WALSH said that, notwithstanding the t' i tne e ` .er Y effort would be made to expedite the general absence of an offensive tone in the speech of t l il lat i t ' of the writ of error ; and he was persuaded the Hon. Member for Sheffield, there were some kr att e nnld be heard in time to enable the judges parts of that speech open to objection. He said, for le ter th '''s their respective circuits within ten days instance, that from the earliest period, the govern sq. e usual • A Su . r , peruke meat of Ireland by Ole' country had been a uniform Pe gsl ea ", HU RCH.—(ADJOURNED DEBATE.) s course of oppression. That was a statement that he e ar s i n e t RASSVDON, on the order of the day for could hardly have expected to hear from an Hon. t ° ,ae e ,R the ad'ourned debate being read, rose. He Member who was a friend to British connection. .sse i,: e ed by tendering his thanks to the Hon. lei ' r f .7 , They might regret the severity of the penal laws, but th 14 4 or Sheffield (Mr. NI aril) for the zeal, the thewere not made to bolster up the Irish Church. 13 8 ,, 3 b r : and the talent with which he had brought They were enacted to secure the Protestant succes se - Ject o f the H h el e efe„ under the consideration ouse. sion. There was another thing which he much re ts'isvea ''' a of that Hon. Gentleman were, he firmly gretted, and that was the introduction of personal topics e e e, - • e s i . n mainly conservative. He maintained that into the Hon. Member's speech. He thoughtthe sanctity -tli nite e way of preserving the union between the of private life ought not to be lightly invaded, as the I'l% calls s was to show a disposition to approach what Members of this House possessed the privilege of Ole A Scl a grivance with a desire to remedy it. The saying what they chose, and giving great publicity to i'ls sab '.erriber for Sheffield had long laboured on what they said—they ought to use those privileges 'est s le et. Year after year he had brought the tale 'cri with great discretion. He knew nothing of Arch le,' it f°r 'ivard • it hadgradually gained ground, „ , h e - mt p i .' " s high time that it should now produce up to a sort of reprehension in that House, as having otrei,reaetical result. The city of Armagh which been a luxurious and pampered ecclesiastic, when the k i . the ea ted was the residence of two primates, one House knew nothing of the circumstances, except kh b n glish Church, and the other of what he ab af t e that he appeared to have spent a large private s . Permitted to call the Irish Church. Infortune in acts of charity.— (Hear, hear.) le s . item. did , One 4 15 b 'on they find these two:primates. it , ', c ,lf ever national faith ought to be preserved, itshould 4 Pal - e njoymentofsplendid revenue inhabiting a 14 ti l 4 " snr be preserved on A _ e 1 . rounded by a park, and 'having a seat d been to the been more solemnly pledged than it had _ _ 'thßili s a 4-4„f'gislature among the Peers:of the realm. maintenance of the Protestant Church of Ireland. e G ov ‘ e "; absence of the Viceroy he sbecame one of It was of quite as much importance to preserve the ,l o a att ent il ment of Ireland. Now he wished to call national faith in our domestic as in our foreign rela- Is se ll e st ate of the people of England and the House tions. If the whole of the Irish Protestants agreed to ten mate of in which he found his neighbour, the this proposition that might indeed cancel the engage asi-eerneet, for Irish Church. He lived in a humble meat, but as it was at present the national faith was h e noti eed 'or which he paid rent. He was pledged to the maintenance of the Protestant Church es. rl hate a nd unrecognised by the Government. in Ir&and. The Hon. Member had repeated what d r a y, h o n o part in the making of any laws h a d o ft en b ee n quo t e d i n th a t H ouse , th e d ec l a ration Th a ey l Penat statute, was not even permitted by un- of the Right Hon. Baronet atthe n. head of her Ma ,,.,„, w ere ,_,,y, to call himself what he was. 'lre-. Government some years ago, that . a' Ite "d forsooth that this was not galling. l an d was his principal difficulty in conducting a lly e Pr lon of Roman Catholics look upon the relative the government of this country. Ireland tli cation __ the Roman Catholic and the Protestant did constitute a great difficulty, and he of °tioe ortlitils indifference ? They were told that this (Sir J. Walsh) was quite sure that there was no am lr ritasi oe e lion. Member for Sheffield was a source Government that could be formed—no possible, no sOetien °f big , He should consider that the annual able, no imaginary Government—that would not zi , ta t i nn. sa ,his motion was a much greater source of find the question of the government of Ireland an 17 a ( 1 1 3 1,! o f Tr it i was trifling with the feelings of the extremely difficult and complicated one. But he did li e a liXerl li e an t d..—(Hear.) The fact was that they not think that the difficulties of governing Ireland had q 4 'loped no this question too much with Mammon. been fully stated by the Hon. Member for Sheffield. Esir,, 4t he w ...' B oman Catholic would take offence at The problem a statesman had to solve was, how to 5 ,,, ,. P1i e n., _ . ` B about to say, but he believed that the govern a country, which was most unhappily divided r, :tit ed;s,nuilathe Protestant form of worship gave it and disturbed by religious differences—differences s t ,,, , ler ef Dublin over the Roman Catholic. The Re- existing between two parties of almost fro u . el ea l' not had admitted that the Protestant equal force and importance in the country. e t ch :head °t been advanced by its wealth derived Ireland was unhappily divided by religious differ eoets.Vstern, State, Why, then, did they not change ences, and the Protestant party in Ireland constituted 'sys ti ries, Se., a ndl relyin g- upon the simplicity of their the mind, and intelligence, and wealth of the country. It L ear the Peopl e ' ll that would not have more weight was a mistake to suppose that there were few Protestants ha A fled Ge. , cf Ireland ? The Honourable and in Ireland, besides those who held large landed I s ,' be en Gentleman had told them that 95,0001. estates. They, in fact, were as numerous in the large in'_ th e ,: . ' ( s: e rihed within the last few years towns as the Catholics. The striking of the Iv 4 : ,f c iL l - tir, :tants of Ireland for the build- late special jury list in Dublin, proved that the i r eoet th at se ° ,s. He rejoiced to hear it ; but flower of the middle class in Ireland in the large r cie ,,,_ iteh evidence of the zeal and prosperity towns were Protestants. He trusted that the ma s'a're e 0 . the rote taut 5 Church iu Ink" , 1 jority oia tlie - pees motion would be 00 large, AL ?A Jii,IAM k; r.....~.,,-._ THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY MORNING, JUNE 13, 1844, tion. lie contended that the religious sentiment was in the discharge of their duties, and whatever might; necessary to insure the stability of every Government. be the success of that Church, its abuses would be I He thanked the House for the attention with which no longer an impediment to its progress. An Hon. they had heard him, and apologised for observations Gentleman had asked whether they would create the made in so crude and ill-digested a manner. Established Church de ,weo if it ceased to exist ? He Mr. VERNON SMITH congratulated the Hon. (Sir James Graham) did not think that was a fair Gentleman on having, on this occasion, become the test by which to try the advantage of the Protestant saviour of the Irish Church ; if he had not risen when 'Church. There were several institutions which ex he did, they would certainly have carried the Coin- , isted from the earliest time, and which they valued mittee, but the Hon. Member had very opportunely very much, and which they would not, perhaps, displayed his great powers of information, he must create again if they were no longer in existence. But say, on every subject except that more immediately i he need not deal with that now, for the Irish Protes before the House, and when that failed him he was tent Church was yet in existence. They found that kin lly supplied with refreshment from the Treasury the Church had been brought under the considera benches (Laugh ter)—which he (Mr. V. Smith) tion of both the British and Irish Parliament hoped was merely a forerunner of other more sub- lat the time of the union. He would not stantial favours from the same quarter.—(Lord put that article of the union, to which re- Stanley, during Mr. Borthwick's speech, had sent ference had been made, higher than the necessity Lord A. Lennox to the lobby of the House for an of the case required. He would not say that that orange, which the Noble Lord handed to the Hon. Mem- article prohibited all interference with the tempo ber.) The lion. Member had certainly established him- ralities of the Protestant Church of Ireland, but it self ai one of the first speakers against time that had was a solemn consideration that any interference ever appeared in that House. It often happened that with its temporalities should be an inteference based topics of importance were made an occasion for decla- upon the maintenance and prosperity of the Church. m elon, and he was not surprised that many gentle- It was on that ground that he and his Noble Friend, men had voted this question a bore, and not come were parties to the Church Temporalities Act and down to listen to the discusei( n. But other subjects the Tithe Commutation Act. The greatest exagge of equal importance had been neglected in the same ration prevailed out of doors as to the revenues of the manner in that House, and yet they had been finally Protestant Church. They had been 800,000/. a year, ca- vied. On the question of Parliamentary Reform, including all sources of revenue. They were now re he believed the House was counted out a very short duced to 650,000/., and if deductions were made from time before it was carried. The question of Catholic the gross income, he did not believe that the Hon. Emancipation was for a long period considered Member for Sheffield would dispute the fact with rather as a thesis for young speakers than him, that the revenues from all sources were now as a practical measure, before it passed. about 590,0001., certainly under 600,0001. Nothing It was highly necessary that they should was more common than to have recourse to threats, pay attention to this measure, for the sake of where reason failed, and the Gallant Commodore who preserving the peace of Ireland, which was in immi- spoke on this subject would be quite decided by the nent danger. It mi g ht b e b ro k en e ither from a first shot fired in Europe. He had given them wars failure of the potato crop or the firing of a hostile and rumours of wars, and he had given them th e gun in Europe. He believed that, if the report that Prince de Joineille in the chops of the Channel, a n d Admiral Dupetit Thouars had sunk an English ship unless they gave up this question there was no saf e ty at Otehaite had been true, the question of the Irish for the British Empire. That assertion, he thought, Church would have been settled, from the necessity did great injustice to the Roman Catholics of they should have been under of calling in the aid of Ireland. He did not think that the accustomed their fellowecountrymen. He wished to see the gallantry and loyalty of the Roman Catho way in which the Ministry intended to deal with this lies would be found wanting when occasion offered. question. The Irish Church was always the diffi- Those threats would not overawe, for notwithstand culty that stood in the way of establishing a govern- ing that they had come from one so distinguished for ment in Ireland. When the late Government estab- his bravery as the Gallant Commodore, the best lisped the system of national education, the Church mode of nullifying such danger would be by employ was the greatest opponent of it, and they were ing the Gallant Commodore himself.—(Cheers and still the greatest opponents of that useful system. laughter.) He did not believe there was much The Church stood in the way of the administration of danger to be feared if that Gallant Commodore did justice, as the Government knew from the difficulties his duty, not in uttering threats, but in conquering with respect to Catholic juries. They talked of defend- elsewhere. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member ing the Church on the score of defending the rights for Northampton, said that the present Government of property. Why, they made greater inroads on pro- were unable to do justice on questions involving the perty every day than would be caused by - any alters- opinions and feelings of Roman Catholics, on account tion of the Catholic Church. Every railroad Bill pro- of the warm feelings of some of their supporters in duced a great and compulsory change in the rights of that House. How was that statement to be recon property. On the ground of religion, he could not tiled with the conduct of the Government in reference see how they could maintain the Church as it at to national education in Ireland, which was opposed present existed. It had totally failed in propagating by many of their supporters in that House ? the Protestant Church in Ireland. He did not ap- (Hear, hear)—or with their conduct on a prove of an universal voluntary system. But in Ire- late occasion towards the Unitarians, whom land the majority of the population had a voluntary they supported from a sense of justice alone? systeen, and the minority had a compulsory one. The Right Hon. Gentleman, who had diverged into a That was the v ery worst position in which a country variety of topics which did not properly belong to the could stand in this respect ; their object should be debate, had observed that even for the Church of to produce something like an equality between the England they had failed to perform their promises, Churches. lie considered that the amount of revenue and that the measure which they had brought forward enjoyed by the Protestant Church, and the last year to increase its usefulness, had not issued in conduct of individual dignitaries connected with it, any practical benefit. Now he must remind the Hon. were minor points of the question. lie considered Gentleman that the borrowing of 60,0001. of capital, the Church rather as a religious grievance than as a upon the security of the ecclesiastical revenue, had pecuniary one. He considered the Church in Ire- enabled the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to place from land as an anti-Protestant Establishment, and as 150 to 200 additional clergymen in the manufacturing such he was prepared to deal with it. He districts, with an income varying from 1501. to 200/. wished to see the Catholic clergy not entirely de- a year. When such a great addition had been made pendent on their congregations, as it deprived them to the parochial strength of the Established Church, of their moral independence, while an allowance from he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman was the State would secure their loyalty. He should not somewhat premature in declaring that the go into the means by which this might be done—he measure had not been attended with any benefit. did not anticipate that any great movement would be —(Hear, hear.) Now he was quite prepared to do made by the Government in regard to this measure. ample justice to the speech of the Hon. Member for Seeing how they were supported it was almost im- Sheffield in introducing the motion before the House ; possible for them, even if they wished it, to do so. but he must be permitted to say that, although he had All their support was derived from the High Church laid down very extensive premises, nothing could be party in this country. The English people so unsatisfactory as the conclusion at which he had were generally m oderate and quiet, b u t th ey arr i ve d. H e appeare d to h ave ransac k ed all the stores, had their periods of excitement which ge- not only of Hansard, but of history generally, in pre nerally occurred at the septennial election, paring that speech. They had had extracts from and he could assure the Government that it would speeches in the House of Commons and in the House not do to go to the constituencies with the trumpery of Lords, extracts from history, extracts from ser tariff, their Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, the County mons, extracts from pamphlets, extracts from the Courts Bill, or such a question as that of Church Ex- Edinburgh Review ; they had had puffs of auc tension, which had done nothing as yet, and which he tioneers, speeches in taverns and at dinners, speeches at believed would end with doing very little. In a re- Exeter Hall, Mr. Glover's book, Mr. 'Neil's lec cent debate the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) tures, Mr. Montgomery Martin's repeal newspaper, had introduced the question of the Roman Catholic a Prussian traveller's comments on Ireland; in oath, and read it at the table, for the purpose of point- short, all the lion. Gentleman's historical researches ing out the subjects on which he thought they were were brought to bear upon this subject, and yet, he bound not to vote. repeated, although nothing could be more ample than Lord STANLEY—I said the very contrary. his premises, nothing could be so narrow and incom- Mr. V. SMITH—It was of very little consequence plete as his conclusions.—(Hear, hear.) He would what the Noble Lord had said : why had he brought only quote one or two of his expressions with respect forward and read the oath at all ? He had looked to the Protestant Church. He said that the main over the debates on the Catholic Relief Bill, and when tenance of that Church was a grievance to the Irish it was proposed that Roman Catholics should not be people; he said that Europe desired to see Ireland allowed to vote on questions affecting the Church, the liberated from the last remnant of the yoke ; he• said Right Hon. Bar meet opposite said he would never that he was prepared to concede at. once what it was allow that any Member of that House should be ex- dangerous to withhold ; and then, entertaining these eluded from forming his own judgment on any par- strong opinions, he contented himself with moving ticular case, and he was unwilling to deprive the Ro- for a Committee of inquiry. Now, as a preliminary man Catholic Members of that liberty of free discus- step, that might be intelligible, if the Hon. Gen sion, and the exercise of judgment, which belonged to tleman were more explicit with reference to the every Member of Parliament. He appealed to the object which he had in view in proposing recollection of the Right Hon. Baronet whether he that the House should go into Committee. did not use language to this effect, for he (Mr. V. But he said he did not ask the House by its vote to Smith) was not prepared with any scraps of Han- pledge itself to any specific plan ofiproceeding. If he sard. He did not know what object would be de- had never heard the lion. Gentleman before last night rived from maintaining this oath. It was no secu- on that subject, he should have believed that he had rity for the Established Church, for since it was first opened a very extensive view of what appeared to him enjoined every Member was to interpret it for him- a very difficult subject, attended with considerable self ; and it should be left to the good taste of Hon. danger, but that he had no preconceived opinion as Gentlemen whether they would throw it in the teeth to the remedy which ought to be applied. The Hon. of Roman Catholic Members, that they did not ad. Gentleman's opinion last session was that seven here to it. lie did not think that much could be ex- eighths of the temporalities of the Irish Church, hay pected from the present Government on a question of ing regard to all existing interests, should be taken this nature, but if they wished to remove the great from it, and those seven-eighths should be transferred, source of discontent in Ireland they would amend the in proportion to their numbers, to the different reli present state of the Established Church in that coup- gious sects in Ireland. He must say, therefore, that .—(Hear, hear.) try it appeared to him, thatthe House could not entertain Mr BORTH WICK explained. his present proposition unless they were prepared to Sir J. GRAHAM said he was unwilling to occupy take a great step towards the spoliation of the Pro the time of the House at any length, seeing the testant Church in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It should apparent weariness and langour which characterised not be forgotten that those who were best acquainted the present debate in so remarkable a manner.— with the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland had de (Hear, hear.) lie thought the Hon. Member who dared that the ministers of that Church would abso introduced this subject had very considerable out- lutely refuse the offer of endowment. If that were stripped public opinion in seeking for the destruction true, the Honourable Gentleman's object could not of the Protestant Church in Ireland. He would not be attained except by depriving the Protes follow the Right lion. Gentleman who spoke last into tent Church of all its revenues, and placing the rather irrelevant subject of the Catholic oath. He it in the position of a voluntary church, without agreed with him, however, that each Member was to any endowment.—(Hear.) To that proposition, if he be bound by his own conscientious opinions as to the were not mistaken, the Noble Lord, the Member for interpretation of the oath, and it was for no other the City of London, had declared on a former occa- Member to ask of him to interpret it according to the sion, that he felt insuperable objections. The ques view which Catholic - took of it hi mse lf.—(Hear, hear.) The tion which they were then debating was, in reality, Roman Members w ere admitted on the corn- whether or not they should go into Committee for he plete understanding that the obligation of an oath the purpose of depriving the Protestant Church of a was binding on their consciences, and that being so, it great part, if not the whole, of its revenues. He did was left to each individual to put their own interpreta- not think it at all necessary to cavil about the terms tion on the oath. He also agreed with the Right of the article of union. He was not prepared to deny Hon. Gentleman with respect to the difficulty of the historical fact brought forward by the Hon. dealing with religious subjects in regard to Ireland Member for Sheffield, that Mr. Pitt had considerably where there was a voluntary Church, a stipendiary modified the fifth article of union, as compared with Church, and an Established Church. But the Right the form of words adopted by the Irish Parliament, Hon. Gentleman had asked what were the intentions and he would frankly admit, that he believed the ar of the Government with regard to the Protestant title of union, as now formed, would admit of the Church. He (Sir J. Graham) had so frequently State making some endowment for the Roman Ca debated this subject, and expressed his opinions with tholic priesthood in Ireland. But without casuistry, regard to it, that from him the Right Hon. Gentleman which would be unworthy of a deliberative body, he could expect but one answer , which be believed was must contend that the proposition of depriving also the opinion of his colleapies—that it was their the Protestant Church in Ireland of its revenues was desire to purify the Established Church of Ireland of utterly inconsistent with the fifth article as it was every abuse, and to strengthen it by regulating its nowTramed. Some reliance had been placed on the discipline and practice ; and, having so purified it, it circumstance that there was no reference to the tem was their determination to support it as the Estab- poralities in that article of union, and allusion had lished Church of Ireland.—(Ministerial cheers.) The been made to Scotland-more than once in reference Hon. Gentleman who introduced the subject had said to this subject. Now he did not consider that the that the Established Church in Ireland was very in- •case of Scotland was at all analogous. It appeared to efficient, and had made no converts. He concurred in him to be the very converse of the case in point. In the opinion of Mr. Buxton, who, in that House, de- Scotland at the time of the union the religion of the dared it as his opinion that the abuses of the Estab- majority was the religion of the State, and the reli lished Church were the great impediments to the gion of that majority constituted the religion of the Establishod Church in Ireland.— representative body at the time of the union. In Ire •• spread of the (Hear, hear.) He and his colleagues readily ad- land at the time of the union the religion of the mi mitted that; and, whether in office or in opposition, nority was the religion of the State, and the repro they did their best to remove these abuses. The Hon. sentative body—the parties to the union—be- Gentleman said that the Established Church in Ire- longed to the religion of the minority. land was the worst Church in Christendom. So far, therefore, from the cases being par- Mr. WARD said he did not say so. He only rellel, they appeared to him to be the con quoted the opinion of Queen Mary. yerse on of the other. But with respect to the Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he did not think temporalities of the Church of Scotland and that it could be expected that the opinion of Queen temporalities of the Church of Ireland a di- Mary could be very favourable to the Protestant %red stipulation was made in the articles Church. of union, that they should be preserved inviolate. Mr. WARD meant the Queen Mary of 1693, the In each case the maintenance of the Establishment wife of William 111, stood upon precisely the same ground ; and with re- Sir J. GRAHAM begged the Hon Gentleman's ference to both, England was bound by the most so pardon ; but, at all events, he was ready to admit lemn engagements to maintain the Establishment that within a period a little later than the Revolution e intact and inviolate.—(Hear, hear.) ;Cow, the Hon. l there were abuses in the Established Church of Member for Sheffield, and the Right lion. Gentle- Ireland e.. Ireland which were a disgrace. There were many man, the Member for Northampton, had both . referredfor a wish to see; b u t w ithin the last quarter of a century repeal of the union was brought . forward inthat every effort had been made to remove those abuses. House. On that occasion i d o o n i t ro he p y roN w o o m u e ld nt grant and t Another important measure was passed by the Go- dared that they would e F e r r i no Friend n the h o o f Earlme bGrey,Member f and r introducedNorth L a no Lancashire, r h e i , s Noble wi just ch ever every cause well-considered of .o o c o o s m i d p e l their e w i ; awas utmostsald Parliamentto reneove a d n e ; diminished the Protestant hierarchy of the country ; they were told that an absence of measures for the be and they took ample precautions in guarding nefit of Ireland had marked . the . present session. , and both the Mein- Now, it would not be consistent with that period of r a d n measure an d that o f bers for the University of Dubli n p o i n ted out the the ebate, that he should go into any detailed argu-. effect of those measures in reducing sinecures and ment with respect to the measures which had been against sinecures and pluralists pluralities. 'Whether the Established Church of Ire- introduced by the Government ; he would only enu land was the worst Church in Christendom or no, he merge them. In the first place, a very important believed that the ministers of that Church might now ,alteration had been made in the Irish poor-law, which challenge comparison with any ot;ler ministers of the had had the effect of relieving the poorer portion of Protestant faith. They were resident, and active the community from an oppressive rate which bad been that the Protestants of Ireland might be at rest as to the maintenance of their rights and privi leges ; but he at the same time would desire to see a provision made for the Roman Catholic clergy, which he thought would contribute to the pacification of the country. Mr. M. O'CONNELL said that the Hon. Baronet who had just sat down would, it seemed, most gladly make a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy of ' Ireland, which was not wanted by them, and which they refused—(Hear, hear) ;—but he would not give them that to which they were justly entitled. The time was when they would have gladly accepted such a provision ; but the Honourable Baronet might thank the party with which he, at present acted that their proposal was not received. He thought the allusion to the want of interest mani fested upan this subject was more infelicitous, be cause it could not be supposed that, after listening to a long discussion on the mode of preserving dead bodies, they could give a very rigid attention to the important motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield. They had already induced a state of despondency in Ireland ; by their vote that night they might super induce a state of despair, and what would be the result of that it was impossible to say. Consenting to go into a Committee on this subject at this late period of the session would be a matter of much importance. What Irish measures had been introduced in this session ?—(Hear.) The Irish Registration Bill had convinced the majority of the people of Ireland that the Government intended to limit, rather than extend, the franchise. The Municipal Registration Bill was, if possible, still more offensive, and if it ever came to be discussed he b e li eve d that would be proved to be the fact.—(Hear.) He alone had presented, during the present session, more than 300 petitions against that measure. Now, they had an opportunity at present of exciting the gratitude of the Irish people by going into Committee on this subject. The State trials were over. Had they checked the influence of the conspirators ? Had they not at this moment a cry throughout Ireland for the great mea sure of relief which it had been their effort to preclude. In the same district, where Archdeacon Lacy re sided, and where he died, possessed of the wealth that had been mentioned, the Catholic dignitary died, after fifty years of labour, possessed of only tenpence-half penny, and the expense of his funeral was defrayed by subscription. It was incumbent on them to do something for the Catholic people of Ireland. The memory of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, seemed to have failed him regarding the language used by him on the subject of the Catholic oath. His observations were most injudicious and ill-timed, and rankled in the minds of the people of Ireland. Their attempts to prop up the Established Church in Ireland were only sapping and under mining it, and it must, ere long, tumble about the ears of its supporters, if they did not make a material change in their policy. The people of Ireland were now in a state of the greatest political excitement ; and there was an immense number of troops which they could not at present withdraw, whatever their exigencies might be. Within the last two months a patnph'et had been issued from the French press which had excited general attention—it was the pro duction of the son of the King of France, and it had sunk deeply into the minds of the French people. Suppose the amicable relations with France became disturbed, which was not at all unlikely, and that the plan of the Prince tie Joinville was carried out, that war steamers and gun-boats were sent to the coast of Ireland, let him ask the Government then to whom would they trust for the defence of the country ? Was it to the Established Church, or to the Protestant clergy, or was it to the stout hands and warm hearts of the peasantry ? Well, he really thought, notwith standing the high opinion the Right Hon. Baronet seemed to entertain of the strength of the Protestant squirearchy, they would make but a feeble defence against a formidable invasion. —(Hear, hear.) Were they wiling to give the people some earnest that they intended to legislate on principles of equality and jus. tice ? If they were, they should begin in time, and not wait until it might be too late—until the enemy was at hand, when no doubt they would be lavish enough of promises, but when promises would be useless. He would not trespass further on the time of the House. Mr. HORNBY opposed the motion, and dwelt upon . the necessity o f ma i n t a i n i ng th e E s t a bli s h e d Church in Ireland in its present condition. No thing would more tend to weaken the connection between the two countries than impairing the strength of the Irish Establishment. Mr. DILLON BROWNE, after a preliminary observation on the reason which induced him to come forward, proceeded to say, that he regretted the Hon. Member for Sheffield had not made his motion more definite, and had not aimed a more determined blow at the Irish Established Church. The speech of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, had extinguished all hope of the Government making any change in the present system. He declared the Church must continue a fixture—that it was an irreproachable monument of the wisdom of their policy, and that not a ray of truth or inquiry, should penetrate into the darkest of its recesses. In his native parish, Glencoville, for forty years,there had not been a - Protestant Church nor a Protestant rector, and yet his tenantry were obliged to pay tithes, or rent-charge, which was the same thing, although they all went to mass, and though there was not a single Protestant in the pa rish. His father was a Roman Catholic ; his mother and sisters were Protestants ; but his mother and sisters had travelled eleven miles to church every Sun day. They might have gone to the next parish church, but there they would have heard a long sermon, in which Roman Catholics were attacked in the coarsest and most vituperative language, and they did not like to listen to a sermon in which their father and bro- , thers were denomi na t e d i n fid e l s an d id o l ators .-1 (Hear, hear.) Archdeacon Marlay, of the parish of Anaghdown, in Galway, had no other congregation than his clerk, and he was a Roman Catholic.— (Laughter.) Once the Archdeacon was invited to dinner on a Christmas-day by a parishioner, and ex cused himself for delay on the ground that his clerk had been at mass, as it was Christmas-day.—(Re newed laughter.) The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to applaud himself for the more equal division of the re venues of the Established Church, which had recently take place in Ireland, but what was it to the people as long as they were obliged to pay the same money, whether the remains were given to few or many ? It w as little satisfaction to the man who had been robbed by several highwayman, that the spoil had been equally distributed among them. Before the French Revolution broke out, M. Necker, father of Madame de Steel, took the tax off the hat to put it on the shoe. The French people laughed at him ; and be fore they guillotined the Monarch, they caricatured the Minister. He approved of Lord Howick's no tions on the Irish Church, and thought that, if car ried into operation, they would be productive of the greatest benefit to the whole people. The Executive Government of Ireland were persons who were inca pable of performing the functions which had been en trusted to them. How could the people of Ireland be contented under the present system of government in that country ? It would be contrary to nature to expect it. The Church Establishment must perish sooner or later. Even if repeal were not carried, such an Establishment could not continue with the sanction of such an intelligent population as the inha bitants of this empire. The mind of Ireland had be come too elastic and buoyant to sink under so unna tural a burden. Er. HAMILTON regretted that the Hon. Mem ber for Sheffield should think it his duty to make an annual attack upon Church property in Ireland. The time was gone by when the question of the Church of Ireland was likely to be an engine to be used for party purposes. He believed that the maintenance of the Church of England in Ireland was calculated to maintain religious truth. It ought to be kept up be cause this was a Protestant State. He would ask whether 2001. a year was too great an income for a gentleman of education to enjoy who held the situation of a beneficed clergyman ? yet this amount was that which would only fall to the share of each clergyman of England if the annual income of the Church were divided equally amongst them. Considerably more than one half of the benefices of Ireland were less than 3001. a year, and only about twenty-six were more than a thousand a year. These facts were shown by the reports of the Eccle siastical Commissioners. The Hon. Gentleman then read a statement of the amount derivable from several benefices in Ireland. He was sure that the more the question was discussed the better situation the Church would stand in. —(Hear.) Sir C. NAPIER thought that they would never do justice to Ireland as long as they were in a state of peace; it was not wise or politic to let Ireland re main in the state she was. He thought great consi deration ought to be given to the pamphlet of the Prince de Jonville. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but no division took place, and on our re-admission to the gallery we found Mr. P. BORTHWICK addressing the House in opposition to the motion. He regretted extremely that this motion should be brought forward annually, as he considered it calculated to excite irritable feel ings between the Roman Catholics and the Protestants. The real grievance of Ireland was not in the Church, but in the poverty of its people and the bitterness of party feeling. Even the cry of repeal had carried but little weight, till the magical words " fixity of tenure," had been brought to its support. Then was it that the multitude rushed to the support of Mr. O'Connell, and that the isle was frighted from its propriety. This " fixity of tenure" was that which roused Ireland, and not the connection between Church and State—a connection which he (Mr. Borthwick) maintained was a desirable and a neces sary one in any country. Only a short time ago an illustrious individual in another place had declared that every man, whatever his belief might be, Was inte . - rested fn maintaining the principles of the Reform, imposed upon them;—he believed that measure was a substantial benefit.—(llear, hear.) He had heard with extreme regret the comments made upon two other measures proposed by the Government, which, however, they might have been received in Ireland, had been framed by the Government with a sincere desire to remove just causes of complaint. He alluded to the Irish Registration Bill and the. Mu nicipal Franchise Bill. Ile thought he could show that a considerable addition was made by one of these Bills to the county constituency ; and not content with dealing with the county franchise, they proposed to take off a number of taxes from the occupiers of 101. houses. They proposed to give the same municipal franchise to Ireland, as already existed in England. They had also in troduced a measure to remodel the' com position of the Board of Charitable Works. The Government proposed to bring in a Bill relative to charitable bequests, and also that a certain number of Roman Catholics should be placed upon the hoard, in order that this might ensure the confidence of the Roman Catholic population and the administrators of the board, and further the Bill would enable them to make endowments to Roman Catholic bodies. That measure would be introduced forthwith, and he could say no more upon the subject at present. A measure of the late Government, to which he (SirJ. Graham) gave his support—namely, the Tithe Commutation Act, had had the effect of relieving the Catholic occupiers from oppressive burdens. The present Government had further shown their disposition to ameliorate the grievances of the Irish people by extending the county franchise, and by placing the muni cipal franchise upon the same foundation as it was in England ; and they had further pledged themselves to increase the grant for national educa tion in Ireland by the sum of one-third of its present amount.—(Hear, hear.) It was possible, on account of the unhappy religious differences, of which the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last truly said that they embittered even that which was intended in a spirit of kindness and charity—it was possible, he (Sir J. Graham) repeated, that the good intentions of Government might be frustrated; but it was their sincere desire to prove to their Roman Catholic fellow subjects that the Government were actuated by motives consistent with their sense of duty--con sistent with sound policy—consistent with a desire to transmit entire those solemn engagements into which this country had entered, and to do all in their power to remove the existing discontent in Ireland. It had been said that the Established Church of Ireland had been a type of inferiority to the Catholic popula tion. Well, then, the question before the House was not whether the Catholic priesthood should be endowed—not whether a State provision should be made for them ; but the question was a question of degree, he admitted, among lion. Gentlemen oppo site, some of whom were for taking away the prop?rty of the Established Church, and applying it to Catho purposes, and some for applying it to secular pur poses ; but the great question was whether the Esta• blished Church in Ireland should not be despoiled of its revenues, or of a large portion of them. He felt bound to state that to that proposition he could not give his sanction or support ; and he should also add—for he felt bound to be frank with the House— that he feared that if the Protestant Church were despoiled of its revenues, no other description of pro perty would be safe.—(" Oh, oh," from the Opposi tion.) A century ago it would not have been for a moment believed that such language would have been held towards the Protestant Church by Roman Ca- Roman Catholics. If it had been said at the time the Emancipation Bill was passed that an attempt would be made to despoil the Protestant Church of its revenues, the idea would have been laughed at, and scouted.—(Hear.) He repeated, if the property of the Church of Ireland were to be confiscated, the inva sion of property would not stop there. Those were his opinions, and he thought it t o b e hi s d uty to state them fully and fairly to the House, for although it might not be competent for those entrusted with power to resist the course of events, yet they might show the danger of adopting any hazardous and rash resolution which could only involve the country in ruin ;—it was much better for those entrusted with power to state what they would do, and what they would not do—what they could do, and what they could not do. He would not say that this was an attempt to subvert the Protestant Church, although there certainly was an attempt to abstract a large por tion of its revenues from that Church, for other purposes than their original intentions, namely, for the pur pose of bestowing them upon Roman Catholics, or for other similar purposes ; and such being the case, it appeared plainly to him that justice, honour, and the original contract, forbade the House to accede to the proposition. The Crown, the Parliament, and the British people were restrained from acceding to such a course by the highest moral obligations, and upon those grounds he felt bound to give his most unhesi tating and uncompromising opposition to the motion. Lord J. RUSSELL then rose and said—Sir, the question now before the House is of so much im portance that I will endeavour to confine myself to that question, and to touch as lightly as possible uponany of the other important questions regarding the state of Ireland. Ido so the more willingly because I had an opportunity, in an earlier part of the session, of stating my opinions with respect to several of those qnestions which now stand upon the notice paper of the House, and also because I per ceive it is the intention of my Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Waterford, to bring two of these im portant subjects under the consideration of the House. —(Hear, hear.) But at the same tune, whilst I wish to avoid dilating upon other questions, it is impossible, in considering this question, to put out of view the present state of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, in his speech of last night, rested his defence of the Irish Church mainly upon the ground of prescription, and he adverted to the speech of his Right Honourable Friend the Member for Edinburgh, delivered a few nights ago, and therefore considered that a prescription of 300 years was a sufficient rea son to induce the House not to interfere with the temporalities of the Irish Church. Now, passing by the question to whi c h my Ri g ht Hon. Friend has addressed himself, and which is a totally different question from that now under the consideration of the House.—(Hear, hear)—l should say that that argument of the Noble Lord might have force, if there were not circumstances of great difficulty, great peril—in the present state of Ireland. It cannot, I think, be urged that prescription is paramount in every question: of this kind—(hear, hear)—because it might be asked, if such a principle were admitted as inviolate, how we could justify our interference 300 years ago.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") There was then a longer prescription.—(Hear, hear.) But I find that prescription was overturned. I think the circumstances of that day, and the revolution in religious opinions which took place in England. was a sufficient ground for the change in the ecclesiastical establishments and in the tempo ralities of the Church of England, and for the enact ments of Parliament. But we had set aside prescrip tion, a very long prescription, and interfered largely with the temporalities of the Roman Catholic Church. If we look at the present state of Ireland, and looking at the proceedings which had taken place there during the last year—three or four millions of people assembled to declare their discontent with the Government under which they lived—when we see that after legal proceedings were taken there still re mains discontent--that there still remains a Repeal Association, as an evidence of that discontent, with an exchequer more flourishing (if he were rightly informed) than ever—(" Hear," from the Tory benches)--I must say, Sir, that, looking at these things, there must be some grievance in the state of Ireland of which the peopls of that country have to complain—(llear, hear)—to which the House ought seriously to look ; and as one of those who wish to maintain the union, who deny that the repeal of the union would be beneficial to Ireland, I feel myself obliged to look to other remedies. I cannot admit that so much discontent pervades such a large mass 'of the people, showing itself so continuously in mani festations which cannot be mistaken, and at the same time believe that it is baseless and unfounded. — (Hear, hear.) I cannot admit, on the other hand, rtheapteatlheofretmheedyunpiroonpfne,(ol union—would p a eo r p oin le e o d f y lr l e N l h a i n o ( h l — t t h h i e s House of f u t g h l a it t tpoeosapnlee.tAiomn griev vancesohnlgotterciatoesrteiomhosvteo.twhieliohouraisttethnatitoillyhhaioshbemenytuurnoehd.,io,rnieelo)df the the most e i m m h p e o r r tafno for Sheffield, has brought under our notice.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the Hon. Member for Sheffield stated his case very fairly, and with great ability and perspicuity. The defence of the Church of Ireland has been undertaken first by the Neble Lord, the Secretary of Ireland, and then by the Right Hon. Gentleman who peculiary represents, as Member for the University of Dublin, the clergy of the Church of Ireland. I listened to that Right Hon. Gentleman as the avowed defender of that Church, and I was surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman altogether left out of the question the condition and state of religion in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Any one listening to the Right lion. Gentle man must have supposed that there was a Protestant Church, and that my lion. Friend had stated that there were certain abuses in it, and that the Right Hon. Gentleman not denying the existence of these abuses, was showing that they were in course of re form, and that he was proving, as he thought, sa• tisfactorily, that the Church ought to be maintained in its present size and extent. But is that the ques tion ? Is that the present state of Ireland ? N ( s e, h i o lee is rs ti ) ie deVen e d s er loloftthtaitleCiituigrclilt), lion. si)ow G wym e t n eman, is generally the case—an ex t r aordinary inattention and neglect to the faith of the great majority of his t countrymen ins a ir, I a n m d, when he y to puts ma k t o h e greater question con cessions that any yet made to the Right Hon. Gentle- Man. For the sake of argument I will admit that the eighty-one cases of pluralities, and the 109 cases of non-residences are in course of reduction, and that in a very few years there would be no case either of plu rality or non-residence. I do not think I could make a larger admission than this. Putting the case in that shape, I still say that the Church of Ireland is an anomaly and a misfortune to that country, and re quires the most serious attention of this House. But the case of the Church of Ireland, as a cause of com plaint, is a very short one. It is, that here are 800,000, more or legs, to go to the extreme, say 850,000, the only part of a population of 8,000,000, who are cared for by the State, and the only persons who are in enjoyment of 650,000/. a year, which is given to them for the support of their Establishment. That appears to me to be a case to which there is no parallel in any other country in Europe.—(Cheers.) That is the plain and obvious cause of the complaint made by the people of Ireland, and anywhere else it would be called an oppressive and intolerable grievance. The Right lion. Gentleman, an Irish Member, in stating the case of the Church of Ireland, altogether omits this question. He entirely forgets that there do exist six and a half millions of Roman Catholics ; and he considers them as no part and pa; eel of our constitution, when the question of the Church of Ireland is before us. I believe there is no such case at present existing in Europe of a church of this kinrl ; I believe that the only parallel to it to be found in history in the state of the Episcopal Church in Scotland during the reign of the Stuarts, and when that coun try was convulsed with insurrection, and was dis turbed and oppressed by tyranny and by wrong. The same uneasiness existed, the symptoms being different only because the present age is different from the seventeenth century. The same symptoms of a dis position to monopoly, and to inflict a religion upon the people, existed with respect to Ireland, as formerly existed in Scotland ; and I cannot but believe that the same remedy will be required before we can ex pect peace or tranquillity there.—(Cheers.) I will now take the objections which have been urged against our entering upon the conslderation of this question in a Committee of the whole House. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, says there is the article of union ! The Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State, urges that ground not in the very temperate manner in which it was treated by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the First Lord of the Treasury. He advances that argument in a manner such as I have never heard before. He puts it in this way, and says, the words being the same with respect to Ireland in the treaty of union, that they are with respect to Scotland, then you are obliged and bound to maintain in effect and inviolate the Church of Ireland in its property, as it existed at the time of the union. Why, I must say that I was astonished when I heard that statement fall from the Right lion. Gentleman, because the Right lion. Gentleman himself was a party to a Bill which took away a considerable portion of the property of that Church.—(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman supported a Bill which took away property to the amount of, I should say, nearly, if not more than, 300,000/. a year from the Irish Church. It is quite true that those revenues were not to be devoted to Catholic purposes; but they had been devoted to no ecclesiasti sal purposes, having been applied to the secular purpose of swelling the, rent-rolls of the owners of land. But I say that the Right Honourable Gentleman was a party to a Bill that was brought in either by Lord Althorp, or the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley,) with respect to the temporalities of the Church of Ireland, IVere there no objections stated then ? Yes, I will give you the objections al they were stated by two very high outhorities. The first authority I will quote is that of Mr. Lefrey, now Baron Lefroy, who pos sesses very high legal recommendations, and a very extensive knowledge of law, and who had been re 'commended by her Majesty's Ministers to the high situation of filling one of the judicial benches in Ire land. Now, what said he to the Bill to which the Right Honourable Gentleman was a party. Mr. Baron Lefroy, in speaking of the Pro testants of Ireland said, "much dissatisfaction and discontent exists among them with re spect to opposing this measure, which I think they will consider as violating the Legislative union. They consider that this measure not only violates the Coronation oath, but also directly violates that Act of the Legislature on which the union of the two coun tries was originally established. The Protestants of Ireland, who had been hitherto such firm supporters of that union, will now be ready to join with those who cry for its repeal." Mr Baron Lefroy as strongly stated his objections to that Bill as the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated his objections to this Bill. His ground was a very firm ground, according to the Right Honourable Gentleman's present statement. There was still a higher authority who made objec tions to that Bill—l mean the Archbishop of Canter bury. When I quote the words of the Archbishop of Canterbury, I quote the words of a prelate who is not accustomed to deal in declamation, or use terms of exaggeration, with respect to any measure which he may think it his duty to oppose, but one who states temperately and firmly what he thinks, lie stated his objections to the measure to which the Right Hon. Gentleman was a party :—" He should object to this Bill, betake the principle of the reform it contained was only of a subordinate ,kind—that the conciliation contemplated would fail in its object, be cause it went to apply the property of the Church to the purposes for which it was not intended. He ob jected to it because it gave a triumph to the Catholics over the Protestants, which would not tend to the harmony of that country. He objected, to it because it was the most sweeping measure ever applied to the Church, and disposed of the property of the Church to those who had no right to it whatever;" and he stated that he feared the Bill would be taken as a precedent. These were the objections which the Archbishop of Canterbury stated to the Bill to which the Right Hon. Gentleman was a supporter—objec tions as strong as any that he can apply to the mo tion of my lion. Friend. The Archbishop of Canterbury feared that it would be taken as a precedent. Certainly, if it had not been intended to farm a precedent, I should not have supported that Bill, because, although I considered that it would be a useful measure, I felt that there were other reforms that would subsequently be required. If this be the case, let not the House be frightened by the denun ciations of the Right Hon. Baronet. Let them not take alarm at the statement that the Act of Union will be violated. The Right lion. Gentleman, the Member for the University of Dublin, at the time the Bill was before the House, said, that if it had been proposed at the time of the union, one half of the benefices in Ireland would have been abolished. lie now speaks of that measure as a measure which was brought forward by the friends of the Church, and says, having done so much in the way of reform, I hope vou will not now listen to the enemies of the Church. It is very consoling now to find that such an appeal is treated with so much respect by the Right Hon;. Gentleman. During the time I have sat in this House I have heard measures denounced as being calculated to destroy the Constitution two or three times over, and two or three years afterwards, when those prophecies were fbund to be groundless, I have heard some person interpose, and beg that we _ to would not destroy the Constitution, which he proved be so flourishing and so healthy.—(Hear.) I therefore apprehend that if my Hon. Friend be so fortunate as ( t i o u e p s e t r i s o u n ade , ao t d h e shouldl lo us e t adopt a into measure Committee o tis accordance withillis views, in the course of a few years we should have the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite saying, do not make any further innovations in the Church; the last measure was a very wholesome and friendly one, and was adopted on the very amicable suggestion of the Honourable Member for Sheffield ; don't trust to any hand less friendly to the Church. The statement made by the Right Hon. Gentleman was, that there should be endowments for the Roman Catholics; that might be all very well, but there waa great objection to it. He would now proceed to the question whether the Protestant Church of Ireland answered so completely the purposes for which it was designed, as to render it necessary not to interfere with it. What was the ground on which the Esta blished Church rested ? Was it not to give the means of religious instruction to the people? The great question was, did the Church of Ire land answer the purposes of a great State ? He thought it had been clearly shown that it did not. If they would cut. down the Protestant Esta blishment to something like what was wanted by the people, they would do something. In Ireland not an eighth or ninth of the people were connected with the Establishment. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary plea.es o d f to St s a a te y t f b or at li b e e n Home lotion of De t p b a e rr io e o n . t ile h m ad been . ber for Sheffield with respect to the Church was o not so explicit as usual ; and added to that , it was tbe remembered that the party opposed to the mea suretien their views. Ile Friend, n I e t l)eso wererN Russell)d er J y l . l : i t ffi p c a u r l question is in their minutest particulars .h. t ti f u ( b ) l r eagr l lg i y i e n ' i lu a tno l i i t d (sla h mg d d , es t p o a c i l r i discuss s f s ra t m he iantg merits tsbo me e o t f t properthe the . Mem d b h e e r f s ( i time, an Opposi ' i r ou S ld he n fl o le t non side of the House. Fe . neral . concurrence and the th su Right Hon. Gentleman a l(i t ic)oh n ret i e i groslii.l)t that, the nbßaaetus:tt did with a (Sir James Graham) think it necessar y tha t all who voted for the motion then before the House must baaaauggrhe teedr from oi some Sir James specific i s Graham.) plan before doing The Right— lion. Baronet seemed amused with what he said ; and vet. he and the Right lion. Gentleman had before that day contended in a cause in which persons of various views and opinions supported them, and by so contending together, succeeded in carrying the measure called the Reform Bill.—(Loud cheers.) Some Hon. Members on the occasion he alluded to, said, with Lord Carnarvon, it was best to go for a moderate and graduated portion of reformotbeill I~