The Sun. — London, England, 1839-08-10 00:00:00

EVEN ING EDITION. • - r li•Ts Noble Friends opposite, that the Right Rev. Prelate ilvo uld take this matte, into his grave consideration. He 'himself had experienced much difficulty from the present state of the law, and if that state were altered he would himself im me di ate l y b uild three chapels in neighbourhoods with which he was connected, where there were very CX. • tensive populations, and where those populations suffsied greatly from not having chapels. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY observed that two very different things were now brought under con- Isideration ; one w is that of being at liberty to build chapels and to open them without endowing them, and the other was that of gentlemen, or other persons, being at liberty to open their own houses for the performance of divine service therein. He did not at the mo. meet feel himself at liberty to express any opinion upon subjects that involved so many important con siderations. As to a gentleman being at liberty to open his house for divine service, it would be open to this abuse --that if he quarrelled with the clergyman of the parish lie would immediately open a conventicle, and if he were a man of influence he could draw a great many of the pa rishioners away from the parish church to his conventicle, and which latter would be open just so long as that gentle man's difference continued with the clergyman. He only begged to be excused from giving any opinion at present on either su bj ect, and more particularly from be ,in either t o g i ve a f avourable op i nion to gen.ter bei ng at liberty to open their houses for / divine 1 worship ; but he, and he was sure th e the r est of the Rev. Bencb, would be quite ready to treat any question of this kind that might be brought forward and considered for the benefit of the Church, according to its merits. Lord E L LE NBO R 0 UG H said that his house was two miles from the parish church; the road between the two was almost impassable in the winter time, and of the 70 or 80 person s i n h i s house, he believed that hardly one of them r went to the parish church in that season of the year. 1 i Lord H ATHERTON said the truth was that many of ' . the parish churches were deserted from the incapacity of r e l , from Arg) the men ; and m an y p ersons h a d b ecome Di ssen t ers at same cause. cThe Archbishop of CANTERBURY thought that that cgtyhtfobr employing heat ground fur th e N o bl e L or d a pplyi ng to th e So toying additional curates.—( Laughter. ) HIGHWAY RATES' BILL. ' for ord w HARNCLIFFE moved the Order of the Day t7..the House resolving itself into a Committee upon the ,::hway I''' Bill. Though he had some objection to _ Bill,. yet as it was only for one year, and as it was a Ts!lBsill, and therefore could not be altered by their Lord stniing,chweoziduladamteaekteo n it o . objection to it, and hoped the --' Ltd EL LENBOROUGH was glad that the Bill was Only proposed for one year. He hoped that there would soon be a R eport from the Commission, at the head of is hich the Nobl e Duke on the cross bench was (the Duke of Ric hmond) p.p.,. appointed to inquire into Turnpike Trusts ' er atly, and that then the House would be able to agree to Thee general m easure on t h e su bj ect. Duke of RICHMOND said that he was much i ~giiitist some p arts of this Bill; but still it was necessary or the present, and therefore he should nut propose any an aendinerif. H e h oped the Commission upon which he was would be able to make a Report by next Easter. .The Bill then passed through a Committee, was reprzted without a mendments, and was ordered to be read a third tim e --, on i uesday next. • On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, the amendments of the House of Commons to the Imprison merit for Debt Bill were agreed to. The Poor-law Commission Continuance Act was read it fitst time, an d The Ho-use adjourned at Half-past Six. inger • HOUSE OF COMMON, AUGUST P. The SPEAK ER tosk the Chair at Thr S ee o'Clock. BANK OF IRELAND. WILLIAM SOMERVILLE presented a petition Cra Sir roSi Drogheda, aga i nst t h e monopo l y o f t h e B an k o f Ire .s_nd, and praying to be heard by counsel at the bar of the tiouse.--drdered to be printed. Mr. VILLIERS presented a petition from Andrew Alseine ot , of the island of Tortola, who, during the war, bad commanded a privateer, and who complained that cer trr i Tr easury , and prize- money due to him had been detained by the pray;ng to be heard by counsel either at the bar of the House or before a Committee. On the motion of Captain PECHELL certain returns Were ordered. STONE AND RUGBY RAILWAY. Captain CH ET W YND presented a petition from certain shareholders, holding 650 shares in the St.ne and Rugby Railway, complaining that a clause had been iu serted-in the Bill before the Committee, without their hnowledgei.protesting against any consolidation with the Birmingham and Manchester Railway Company—praying that a clause to that effect should not be introduced into the and praying to be beard by Counsel before the Com mittee against such clause. TOTNES ELECTION. Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition from Chas. Barry Baldwin, Esq., complaining of the election of Mr. Blount for the borough of Totness, and praying that he (Mr. Baldwin) might be declared duly elected. ELECTION PETITIONS. On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL the petitions complaining of an undue election from the borough of Lud .low and Ipswich were postponed from Aug. 22 to the 10th of September. Lord J. RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Poor.law CominissiuLers Continu ance Bill. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Mr. CHARLES BULLER wished to take that op portuuity of asking the Noble Lord what course he in tended to pursue relative to the business of the House that evening. He wished to know at what time the Noble Lord intended to bring on the Birmingham Police Bill. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was his inten tion to put off the consideration of the amendments of the House of Lords to the Irish Municipal Corpora tions Bill till M onday, in consequence of the amend m ents not h av i ng been c i rculated among Members. It was his i ntent i on to procee d t h at n i g h t w i t h t h e Bir ._ n 'ingham Poli ce Bill, the Manchester Police Bill, and the Holton Police Bill; he should also proceed with the C ounty and Di str i cts C onsta bl es Bill, an d it was hi s i n t en . tion to Put off ay the third reading of the Poor-rates Collection Bill till d. Mr. T. DUNCOM BE wished to know whether it was intendedrd to hav e a C omm i ttee o f S upp l y t h at even i ng ? • Lo J. RUSSELL—Yes. • Mr. T. D UNCONIBE. -At what hc:ur? Sl . Lord J. RUSSELL sa id i t was i mposs ibl e f or hi m to telis--( Laughter. ) Mr. T. DUNCOMBE was anxious to know whether all the Bills to which the Noble Lord had referred, were to have precedence? Lord J. RUSSELL —Certainly. , , Mr. C. LUSHINGTON wished to know, whether it Was, the intention of the Noble Lord to proceed with the Church Discipline Bill in the present Session ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was his intention to proceed with the Bill on Monday or Tuesday- morning. Captain PEC HELL wished to know whether the Noble Lord intended to proceed with the Tithe Composi tion Bill in the present Session ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL was not quite sure whether he should or no.—( Laughter. POOR-LAW CONT INUANCE BILL. - On the Order of the day for the third reading of this Bill being proposed, Mr. FRE SH Fl ELD said he did not rise to oppose the Bill„ for though he thought Commissioners necessary at the introduction of the law, he was of opinion that the sooner they were done away with—the soon te urians were left to t h e i r own discretion, th e betterer for h the Bi a l land the_ more easily it wou ld be introduced into the manufacturing d istricts. The guardians might receive the suggestions and advice of the Commissioners, but they ought not to be controlled, as they, having a great stake in the Unions titheenreerfacblrley, would not give indiscriminate relief. He would move a proviso to the first clause :—" Provided a e l r v i i , ty;,. S t r h iy at it shall no t b e l aw f u l fur the said Commission rules or r egu l at i ons not already made, to Pro -hibit or limit the admi n i strat i on o f relief t o able.budied la bourers or their families out of the woikouse of any parish or u n i on. " Lord J. RU SSELL said the clause would so impair t he power of the Commissioners, and he thought it so un. Wise that be must oppose it. Mr. GRIMSDII'CH would strongly recommend his Hon. Friend to test the feeling of the House by a division. via vision. On the question that the Bill do pass, Sir C. DOUGLAS said he never was an enemy to the law of the land, nor out of that House would he join any one who was so. He, however, opposed the Bill in the House, on the ground that it was brought in so very late in the Session. It ought to have been brought i n much earlier. He did not think it was at all necessary for any other purpose than the convenience of the Government. The Bill was then passed. - ,MUNICIPAL- CORPORATIONS (IRELAND) BILL. the Day Lord JOHN RUSE HN RUor SSELL then moved that the Order of be f considering the Lords' amendments to the Irish Muni c ip a l BB for the purpose oftp it. In se doing he had only to say th pwoisthonriensgect ,to,that part of the question which related at to the p rivileges of the House, he did not think after the view that had been taken of them, not only by the Speaker, but by many Members conversant .with their privileges, that it would be possible for them to mak e any concession on the question of privilege He saw likewise very c onsiderable disadvantage in raising a discussio n on the question of privilege with the other House of Parliament, Unless it was absolutely necessary so to do.--( Hear, to the general quest io n o f b With regard hey)merits of the Bill ; there were undoubtedly number of amendments introduced by the House of Lords, ansenditents which he certainly had net bad time fully to consider, and which it was very inconvenient to discuss, -because, as the late Speaker had observed, they ought to H o (Lord John) saw be adopted or rejected at once. very great difficulty in coming to any agreement upon the l' A li t ili n th e course of the present S it es w si a o g n t o h n e th a e n s x e io g u r s ou vi nd ie s h . the same time, he must say, of the Government, if possible, to pass some legislative measure upon the su'ect, and fromwhat he had heard of the disposition of thos e who were most anxious for the extensi on an of Municipal C or p o rations to Ireland, d considering likewise the points of differ. i ''‘'! l between the two Houses, it did appear ''° him that there might be a Bill framed in such a man ner as to agree with what appeared to be the decision . of the House of Lords with respect to the general provisions oft the measure. thereforethought move that it be posponed till Monday next. .Alr. SHAW would make no objection to the proposi. lion that the question should stand over till Monday.. He thought it vt• that t h t i r ....s -better, if . they " were satisfied )3in, wide,_ l ie had been -violated,. to lay the 114464:01 ..t0rd "ti1e L t411 44 , - " t6 -.:return it to the the amendm ents - —ug- that they- could -not -agree . to frif ogeg s t",'T•bs- neceute' theit. privileges.. had -been: O. mend s", se ( Mr- . bhaw. ) ,4344,l er"stoodilie - Islobl Lord himself new toaik that yeses of it. With respect to the other parts of the Bill, the Noble Leril dia net s=tew( to make any strong cbj etion to the amendments made. There were enly three points totieh.•el by the amendineuts—the franchise, the question relating to the freemen, and those clauses relating to the privilege with with respect to Grand Juries. With regard to the freemen's question that [Luse had agreed last year to the Lords' amendment% by adding a long pro viso, which proviso the Lords also agreed to. The third point merited consideration inasmuch as it made a complete change in the law on that subject. This was really a new question. It was introduced in Committee, and formed no part of the origin,) Bill and it was not un reasoneble in the House of Lords not to agree to it. He did rot think there were any other impediments in the way. Sir R. INGLIS consider, d that the present Bill was against every principle of the Constitution. He thought the Noble Lord instead of postponing it till Monday, ought to postporm it to the most distant day. He considered the measure to be one of unmixed evil. Mr. O'CO NNE Lls did not at all mean to endeavour to reconcile the difference between the Right Hon. Baronet and the Hon. Gentleman.—( A laugh.) He did not think this Bill was unmixed evil, but he considered that there was a great deal of evil in it. He protested against any idea going abroad that Ireland was not entitled to the same measure of Corporate Reform as England. -•( H ear .) If there was a union between the two countries, there ought .to be a political equality. The corporations had never assumed a sacred character except in the eyes of the Hon. Baronet, who imagined them to be models of religion, and the promoters of Christianity, by the excess of their virtues r n i the admirable example which they set. Now, this being a mere political right, there was no pre tence for keeping it from the people of Ireland. The Learned Recorder for Dublin had pressed the Bill strongly on the Government, but his recommendation was not likely to reconcile the people of Ireland t• it. It was impossible that the people of Ireland could be content that there should be a tit franchise in England, and a 101. franchise in Ireland—With having one law of the freemen's franchise here, end another there. Under these circumstances, he rose to protest against being supposed to consider that the oeople of Ireland would consent to be deprived of that which the people of England possessed. The further consideration of the Bill was then postponed until Monday next. MANCHESTER POLICE BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for the second readi ng o f t h e M anc h ester P ol i ce B il l . Mr. G RIM SDITCH wished the Noble Lord to post pone the Bill until Monday next. Many of the respectable inhabitants were hostile to it, and as it had hen brought in without any notice they ought to have a full opportunity of considering it. Lord .J. RUSSELL could not consent to postpone the Bill. There were many of the inhabit arts in favour of the Bill as well as against it. Mr. POULETT THOMSON said a few words, which were inaudible in the gallery. Mr. C. BULLER said, that if he should unhappily say what had been said before in the course of the debate, or if he should advance arguments which had been previously answered, he trusted that the House would attribute it to the true cause, namely, that the debate had been hitherto carried on in such a low tone of voice that no hum in being could hear what was said. He wished to ask the Speaker if it was conformable to the rules of the House that debates should be carried on in such a tone that people could not hear what was said.—( A laugh.) The grounds assigned for introducing these Bills for abolishing popular control in the different new Boroughs of England was that a dispute had been raised by certain persons as to the validity of the Charters. It was unfortunate that no legal opinion on the subject had been given to the Crown except by that eminent law officer of the Crown the President of the Board of Trade—( A laugh)—but seeing the lion. and Learned Member for Edinburgh in his place, he would put these questions to him as Attor ney-General. What was the state of the question as to the charters of Manchester and Birmingham ? Was it disputed that they were legal Corporations ? Wei the validity of the appointment of the Magistrates dis puted? or did the dispute only extend to the single power of levying rates? Because when the case was first stated to the House, it was stated that the charters were not disputed ; that the Town Councils of Birmingham, of Manchester, and of Bolton were as good as any Town Councils in the kingdom, and the only dispute was as to the power of levying rates. Now if the fact were that the Town Councils were good, and possessed all the authority given by Charters of Incorporations, and that it was only owing to a defect in the Act, that they could not extend to the power of levying rates, why was rot the first Bill regarding Birmingham perfectly sufficient ? —( Hear, hear.) This did not settle the legal ques tion, but it gave the power of levying rates for a specific purpose. He thought the Government could not do better, if this were the case, than go back to their old Bill. But if the Attorney-General said the charter was dis. puted in all its points, that would be a better ground for the present Bill than any he had yet heard. He should like to know if the charters , vere altogether disputed? The AT TO N E ENER A L was very imperfectly acquainted with the state of the dispute regarding these charters. His opinion was that the charters in omnibus were perfectly valid, and that it stou!ti be so decided by the Court of Queen's Bench. In answer to the question of his Hon. and Learned Friend, although it was not customary for one lawyer to ask questions of another, and altnough he thought his Hon. and Learned Friend might have look( d at the Act of Parliament and judged for himself, he would state that under the 141st section of the Municipal Corpo rations Act power had been given to the Crown to create new Corporations, having all the power which bad been confided to the old Corporations. Under ibis section charteri had been granted to D::voutiort, to Birmingham, to Man chester, and to Belton. The Devonport charter had net been disputed, :he Birmingham and Manchester Charters had been disputed, because it was alleged, with respect to certain particulars, they were not in conformity with the Act of Parliament. Ali he could say was, that the char ters had been prepared ,with the greatest care by a person of great experience in those matters—but they were new, and he should like to know what new charter or what new Act of Parliament there could be on which legal doubts could not be raised ? The great question was not as to the validity of the charters, but as to the power of levying a Borough.rate, although he would not say how frer these objections might go as to the validity of the charters themselves ; but his opinion was that these corporations possessed all the powers belonging to the old corporations. Until that question was decided there would be a direct resistance to the payment of . the rate. All the overseers had refused to pay a shilling either in Manchester or Bir mingham, and than fore it was utterly impossible that any funds could be raised either for paying the police or any other purpose. With respect to the Magistracy no doubt could be raised of their power, because tUey did not hold their office under the charter at all. It was now admitted on all hands that there was a concurrent jurisdictiun on the part of the County Magistrates. • Sir R. INGLIS differed from the opinion of the At torney.Goneral, because it vrag opposed to the opinion of Sir W. Follett and Sir F. Pollock. Tne ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that those two Learned Gent! •men had only stated that the question was doubtful. but thcr had intimated no opinion. Mr. BOLLING said it the Bill did not prejudice the question of law now under the consideration of the Court, he would give his vote for the second reading. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to know why this Bill was not to be treated as a private Bill ? It was a local Act ; there was a distinction between this Act and that for Birmingham, because, in the latter, money was wanted. Sometime since a Bill was brought in with re spect to the Liverpool Police. and that was treated as a private Bill. He did not see why Manchester should not take the expenses of the Bill upon its own c.houlders. He was most anxious to bear the opinion of the Chair upon the subject. The SPEAKER Raid if the Bill had been sought by the inhabitints of Manche , ter, and they had the appoint ment of the chief constables there, it would have been a Private Bill. But the Chief Commissioner under the Bill was to be appointed by the Crown, and therefore it could not be considered a. 4 a Private Bill. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Bill would not at all prr. judice the question as to the validity of the Charter. As to the peace of the town of Bolton being secured by special constables he was quite willing to admit that in case of a sudden emergency, as the breaking out of a riot, they might come forward and efficiently perform their duty, but he did not think that the peace of the town could be permanently preserved unless there was a permanent con. stabulary force. For there were many dutios to be per formed by such a force, which it would be irksome, and indeed intolerable, to the special constables to have imposed upon them. Mr. G RI NI S'DITCH hoped that the Noble Lord wouli give the inhab tanta of Manchester time to consider the subject. The Bill appeared to him very objectionable in principle. After what had passed, he trusted that the Noble Lord would postpone the Bill to a distant day— ( Laughter)—that is, Tuesday or Wednesday. In M.in chester there was already an efficient police.—( No, no r' from Mr. Brotherton. ) He would not dispute the veracity of his Honourable Friend the Member for Salford, but certainly he bad heard what he had stated as the fact from good authority. He should not however oppose the second reading, reserving his opposi tion to a future stage. Mr. G. WOOD said it was his intention to support the second reading of the Bill, in the belief that it would in no way prejudice those legal questions which had been raised in the Courts of Law, between the advocates and the oppo nents of the Charter. The state of those questions bad been so amply explained by the Learned Attorney_ General that it would ill become him to advert more to it. But as to the necessity of Farliam!nt making some provision for the police force in Manchester, he thought no one fully acquainted with the condition of the town could entertain any doubt. Some Honourable Members had stated that there was now a police in the town, with ample and was s pecuniary means for its support. He entirely dissented . from the accuracy of that statement. There was the old b ody of Commissioners, in number 240, who before the char ter the ch arte rgh granted had provided the police of the town by day empowered by Parliament to levy for that purpose. When t b een h h e a e d en se expenses being granted,d night, e a f n r d ay a ed c b o y u a nc rate they were , Council appointed, they concurred that they were entitled 'to levy the rate and provide for the l' o ice force, an d t h at t h e powers o f t h e old Commis sione rsP ßeform A ct. hus were super se d e d un d er t h e M un i c ip a l T the two p art i es were di rect l y at issue, each claiminthe police rate. g tilte exclusi ve r i g ht o f l evy i ng ink which of the Bt t th e inhabit an t s , no t k now . bad resolved, with that sh re w dne ss would be legal, matters especially di stinguish ss which upon ;monetary the question had been deter c 4 them—to p a y neither till the Council issued their pree m ep la t ed—( A lau g h.) When to pay over the requisite s um f or the the pro p er p arties to m a i ntenance of the force, the legal process was f orc ibl y resisted. The Churchwarden against whom there bai been directed t h e had, succeeded in ejecting the officers di stress warrant, possession, a violent mob assembled, and the peace of t i h o e rn to . a considerable time endangered. , Unless the House m ad e . for de pror.stou for this anomalous state of things the polinleea of Manchester would soon be put an end to. Th --e Bill seemed I' SUN, LONDON. S ATU RRA ILT ) AUG-UST 10t 183 g. to him to he very wi,ely trained for the desired object, ayoidaig all irr.•l., ant and contested queslious. Mr. WILLIAMS thought what had fallen from the /lon. Member for Kendal would satafy the House that there reslly was uo necessity for this Bill —( Hsar. hear. ) The town of Manchester had hitherto been well governed by its own palice ; under a Commission consisting of 240 gentlemen of all parties. And he had not heard that the police were ineffic;ently managed or inadequate in number. —( Hear, hear.) If there was any dispwe between the Commissioners and the Corporation, the best course to pursue would be to give the Commissioners the manage msnt of the polite, until the litigated question should be decided. Teis B 11 would in r fleet place the town of Man chester under Metropolitan Police Law ; there were pro visions in the Bill never known before in ti:e town; there were powers given to the police which had never yet been endured.— (Hear, hear.) He never could consent to such an arbitrary stretch of power; he trusted that the Noble Lord would still d. sist from the measure; if not, if any Member divided against the Bill, he would vote with him. Mr, C. 8U1A,14; R. said he was glad the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair had been asked whether this were a public Bill or - not, for it had enabled him authoritatively to state, that this Bill had not been at all desired by the inhabitants of the town, and that it hail been compulsorily imposed upon them.—( Hear, hear.) The Attorney. General had quite upset the law of the President of the Board of Trade. By the bye, it was rather strange to see how these two colleagues managed to diffar.—(A laugh.) The Attorney. General had given his otinion with all the authority for experience, ability, and acuteness of :ntellect which belonged to him, and the value of that opinion was always appreciated by him ( Mr. C. t3uller), especially when it coincided with his own.—(Laughter.) An humble supporter of the Government, even against themselves— ( A laugh)—he had ventured to• argue for the cruise sufficiency of the first Bill, which gave the Council power to provide the police. —( Hear, hear.) The Pre sident of the Board of Trade had said there was no Council, in fact, in the town.—(Mr. P. Thomson I said no such thing.") Certainly, the argument was, that the authority of the Council had been disputed; that was what he (Mr. C. Buller) had understood to have been urged. The Attorney-General had now come to his res• cite, and had given it as his opinion that these towns all had very good Town Councils; and if such was the case, and they gave them the power of levying rates, that was all that it was necessary to do, and all that ought to be done. The Noble. Lord ought not to take advantage of any disputes which had been engendered by their own bungling legislation. to take from them the management of their own police, and establish a system of centralization such as had been found to work so ill in France. He had supported the Noble Lord's County and Districts Bill, be cause it was founded upon good principles ; it was, indeed, much better than they had any reason to cxpact. Why not extend the same principle and give the same power. to the authorities chosen by the rate-payers ea they did to those appointed by the Lord Lieutenant ? He was much pleased to hear the Hon. Member for klacclesfield propose a lone. time for the con s id erat i on o f t h e Bill, and, he had hoped ' to hear him say that three months would• . be the proper time—in that he would with pleasure have joined hirn—he would not move himself, of course as he expected that duty would be taken up by some Member locally connected with the places. He would be most happy to join them in such a vote. Lord J. RUSSELL had taken such considerable pains to explain this measure, and the necessity for it, that he could riot but express his astonishment at the manner in which he had been misrepresented by the Hon. Member —( Hear, hear)—so much had that been the case that he must say a few words in order to set himself right with the House. He said lie ( Lord J. Russell) was taking ad vantage of the disputes in those towns to establish a cen tralized system.. Now he most distinctly begged leave to deny that such was the fact, for he could get nothing by them but a considerable deal of trouble ; nor was the pro posed system one of centralization, but one to establish a good local police until the dispute were settled. Such a course was renderred n cessary by the disputes between the two parties, in consequence of which it was most likely that neither of the towns would long have any police. and he considered that that was a matter of which it was his duty to take cognizance. NVherever there was a deficiency of police or other means fur the maintenance of the police, it was his duty to take steps to remedy the de. feet. The Bill only gave these towns the advantage of en efficient local police, was that taking advantage of them? The Commissioner would be entirely independent of local parties. Then it was said with res p ect to Bi rm i ng h am that it would be unjust not to give the appointment to the Town Council, and the Hon. and Learned Gent. had re presented it as part of a centralized system of Govern ment. Now he would ask whether the appointment of a Comihisaioner to emilly all the best constables he could find, adding to the force if necessary, but not adding to it if unnecessary, had the least resemblance to a centralised police. The House ought not to de prive these important towns of the means of having 'in official police. If they did so great calamities might arise not only in those towns, but throughout the whale country. Mr. AG lON 13 Ysvas anxious to make one or two obser vations. During many years of his life he had been in the habit of attending Manchester, for a fortnight together, four times a year professionally, and therefore he had had an opportunity of' knowing what the conduot and number of the police were. There was no proof that this Bill was called for in the slightest degree. Had there been any petitions in favour of it? One mole by which the House acquired a knowledge of the wishes of the town was by petition, but there had been no petitions in favour of the Bill. Sir S. LUSHINGTON.—There had been none against it. - Mr. A GLIONBY.—Why the Bill was only ordered to printed on the 7th of August, and therefore it was not possible that petitions could have been sent in so short time against the Bill. But he hod been Informed. that the was a deputation from Manchester against the Bill. Cer tainly there was some doubt as to the power given by the charter ; but he would support it to the utmost. What he wished to know was, whether there were not sufficient means in the town of Birmingham, either under the new or old Commission , rs, to appoint a police force. The rate had been assessed, and a large portion of it levied by the Town Commissioners, and more would be raised. They had now in hand sufficient to maintain the. police for some months. Four months would elapse before any appeal could be made against it; awl before that time the. legality of the Charter would be decided. Unless he heard stronger arguments than those adduced by the Noble Lord, he must oppose th t second reading of the Bill. Mr. BROTHERTON said the police had hitherto been in the hinds of the local government; but, seeing the necessity of the case, he was not one of tbosc who, to gratify party feelings, would sacrifice the interests of a large community.—(Neer.) In Manchester the number of inhabitants was abut a quarter of a million, and the state of excitement there must have had great weight with the Government. and ever ) one who wished for the preserva tion of life and property. A:though he was anxious to see the Corpi.ration fully estahlished and the police under its control—yet, as that could net at present be dune he would take the lesser of the Mao evil., and support the Bill. All parties had complained of the want. of g o .d local uovernment, and hence there was a great desire for a Charter of Incorporation. But an opposition had been got up by interested individuals to throw every impedi ment in its way. The Corporation had set about estab lishing a police, and had a sufficient force. Jr this they had done their duty, but they found they were unable to levy the rate which they made, and therefore they could not support the police. Between the two the property and lives of the people of Manchester were placed in jeo pardy. He was desirous that the Police should not be disbanded to serve private mrpeses, he therefore called upon the [louse, as the lesser evil, to give its sanction to this Bill. This would not prejudice the I-gal qtvoition, hut would preserve the 'peace of the town until the ques tion of corporation should be settled. The Hon. Member for Coventry by his vote would practically deprive the people of Manchester of the management of their own aff firs, and disf• auchise the poorer rate-payers. Mr. M. PHILLIPS A pproached this question without party feeling, he suppo ted this Bill because it gave the town of Manche-ter that to which it was fair ly entitled, a good and an efficient police force The corporation had organized a police force, and the Commissioners had done the same, but if this Bill were not p , ssed funds would be soon wanting for the payment of this force. lie was per fectly convinced that without this Bill no patty would have it in their power to levy a rate, but this Bill would remove the difficulty, for the inhabitants of the town were p , rfcctly ready to pay the rate as soon as it was known who had the legal right to receive it. He would now advert to the sums that had been collected in 1837 : in the first week in that year ending in July, it was 1,4801., and in the s,.cond week it was 5781., making a total of 2,056/. lii 1838, in the first week ending on the 27th of August, it was 9571., and the se and week it was 1,113/ Li 1839 the first week was 8131., and the second week 812/. But this was not all, the rate had been resisted by the Commis sioners of Police, and had been resked as a legal rate, and lie w as much afraid unless the present Bill was allowed to pass great danger would arise both to persons and property. Nothing but those difficulties would have induced him to consent to a departure from the system of local and self- Government, but he thought he would not, under present circumstances, have been doing his duty had he opposed the measure, fearing that the borough lie had the honour to represent, would be without any police at all, Lord G. SOMERSET would supp nit the second reading of the Bill, certainly, not on th e proiinds put forward for it by the Hon. Member for Salf or d, tut as the Noble Lord was answerabl e f or t h e peace of the country, he was disposed to look f avoura b ly upon any measure introduced for that purpo se by him upon Iris own responsibility. Some alterations might he necessary iu Committee, which he hoped would not be taken before Tuesday, in order to afford time for bearing from Man chester. Mr. AG LIONBY begged to ask the Noble Lord whether he would have any objection to consent to a pro viso which would make the duration of the Bill depend upon that of the difficulties it was intended to remedy, say six months after the termination or settlement of the disputes. Lord J, RUSSELL did not know how they could define in an Act of Parliament the questions that were to be decided, or the position in which the Town Council might be then left. That was his object, however, and he would pledge himself that the Bill should not last beyond the ne cessity for it. Mr. T. ATTWOOD gave notice, that on going into Committee he should move, as an addition to the 11th clause, which enacts that the Bill should continue in force for two years, and from thence until the end of the next Session of Parliament, the addition of the following words Provided always that whenever the Court of Queen's Bench shall have determined that the Mayor, Aldermen, and Ourgeises of Nlanchest(r have legal power to levy rates under the authority of the charter of incorporatiJn, then and from thenceforth this Act, and ail its provisions, - shall forthwith cease and determine,. and be altogether void." - The Bill was fom r ad a second time, and ordered tt he commuted on Tar , rlay n, xt at I2..o'ciock. Bouros POLICE BILL. On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the Balton Po lice Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be corn. mitted on Lord J. RUSS ELL moved the Order of the Day fo, B go l i R iig MINGrIAM POLICE BILL. the House into Con - nine,: on the Birmingham Po. lice Bill. Mr. WILLIAMS so enti re ly objected to the principle n 7 of the Bill, t h at i t was his i n t e ntion to move that it he co:ntnitted thi s d ay three months. The f i rst Bi'l w hi c h was intreduced gave th e T own C o unc il the entire ins nagement o f t h e i r police, a that Bill, sidered alt oget h er unnecessary. The w i thdrawal of thaf Bill, and int ro d uct i on of the present, which vested the power except to the grant :id o nn i 0,0001., objection which w a s made hei n a to . themselves i s s e t i r v a e t entirely in the Secretary of State, proclaimed that the mingliam were not competent for the purposes of self main taining a police for the protection of th t e h i e r government. It took from them the power of ta x in g p p o r w np e ( r T o ty f .N, s es :t r h t e he T ir ow lo n cl C :g u o n v ci er l im an e d nt tim inhabitants of Bir. reason h.•cl been shown why so important a privilege should be_ taken away. Nothing had happened to justify this harsh treatment of the Corporation of Birmingham. The Noble Lord had stated it was not his intention to make this the foundation of a measure for ultimately establishitig police force throughout the country, under the authority of the Secretary of State. He would not dispute the assertion of t'le Noble Lord, but there were cer. tain facts to show the existence of such an intention in some quarters. In the first place there was the Report of the Commissioners appointed to make inquiries into the state of the constabulary, which recom mended the establishment of a police force throughout the country, under the authority of the secretary of State. He warned the people of this country to be on their guard the introduction etionof such a system, which would pol notice force the introduction destroy the lib ert i es o f the country. Th i s, t h en, was a B ill against extending into five counties. They knew the people would of the police all at once, but the i ntro d uct i on o f i t was steadily progre ss i ng . N ext, t h e y had en d eavoure d to introduce the p o li ce i nto t h e City of L on d on . There had been a mea sure w hi c h wou ld virtually i ntro d uce the metropolitan polic e i nto L on d on . There had ne x t b een stand a measure to raise 10,0094 fora sort of roving police, liable to be sent to any part of the country at a moment's notice. ,If they acted as they had at Birmingham, the Noble Lord would succeed better in creating than suppressing distur b"colgs..-- These Bus agreed to, why the metropolitan police system would pervade A* fourth part nearly of the population of England. _What did these things indicate ? That it was intended to:carry the system through the whole country. ,The Corporations Of England would practically be deprived of tits management of the police. He was glad that the City of London had come forward against these Bills relative to Birmiugham,'' Manchester, and Bolton. They had 'resisted: the..liicasure which was intended to •d e p r i v p,thqrn of an_ authority they bad enjoyed for the last 700 years, and they didright to oppose the infliction of the same depriVation on others. He wished to draw the at tention of the Noble Lord to one important fact, that the two Members for Birmingham had declared that their was I so great an , antipathy in the town against the measure, that the whole population, with the Magistrates and Coun cil, would offer it every opposition. How then could the Noble Lord expect to make his Bill efficiently operate ? The Noble Lord had, on several occasions, evinced a readiness to follow the advice of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth• Now that Right Hon. Ba ronet had been very desirous, when be introduced the me , . d trgo a li f t id ane d li d c e e si s s y te s extend it to the city of Lon. with, feeling that he never could the opposition it met desisted from m t 9 the attempt only on account of expect to make it efficient, if it were so decidedly opposed by the population among whom the system was to work. The Noble Lord should follow the example of the Right Hon. Baronet in this respect, and pay that respect to th e peop l e o f Bi rm i n gham to which their intelligence ju , tly en titl e d t h em . He ought not to force on this mea sure in opposition to their wishes. It the peace were ever to be off dually preserved, it must be by a police accept able generally to the people. Without taking up the time of she House any further, he would move that the Bill be committed this day three months, Mr. T. ATT\VOOD seconded the amendment. He hoped the Noble Lord would now consent to withdraw the Bill. He had received a letter this day from the Town Clerk of Birmingham informing him that a petition had been p resente d to the Council earnestly praying them, it this Bill passed into a law, to terminate its operation as soon as the law gave them power—or as soon as it was decided that the law gave them powers to levy the rates for their own police. But the Council had rejected the pe tition. on the ground that it was unworthy of them, as men and Englishmen, to have any thing to do with this Bill. They were grave, and respectab'e men—very few of them had been members of the Political Union, therefore they were entitled to the Noble. Lord's respect. The first Bill was constitutional and reasonable; this was un constitutional, arbitrary—the first step towards driving in the wed ge f or the Fresch genid'armerie. The people of Birmisgham would neve r submit to it; if they did, now that the Nobl e L or d was i n his weakness, they could never expect to resist it when he was in his strength, which, if he were in at all this time two years, he would possess. The masses of the people were not disposed to encourage fires—God forbid !—but they were generally discontented. Sorry he was to find the Noble Lord in such a measure as this, deserting his h'gh principles, and dishonouring his great 'name. If the Noble Lord would not restore his first Bill, he (Mr. Attwood) would advise him to retire from his situation. There were plenty of Gentlemen opposite who would gladly replace him, and who . were- his equals' in ability; Let him retire . while he had something yet remaining of his deserved high -ohm-am-seri unless be were piepared to leave the people of Birmingham to admired l : a) ri f Ee t h ea them nn p td ! e a n nw t d y fho 0 ; r respected I s pe o ei r• somewhatee t e ea , di,)t, whichcapa bleoe,lll, themselves—at least with the aid of the military—of whom s f t t r o e t N g fh ho, guiding e t c m o L o u n o r s r at t: h i t ee u , h t aiaodnt peopleand s system was un- English ; the word " police" was not i n otn ach!evments and mart i a l enthusiasm. But the gendarmerie latigulge ; we only had " peace officers" and constables ; and the Noble Lord would have done well to limit his in terference to th e 4 i v i ng power to increase the number; of these—there w as ample provision for their support. The Court Lect hav e certa i nly—like that House—swofullY de teriorated from it s orieinal intention, hut though a clique, self-electing, th ey had never d one anyt hi ng wrong; t h ey were B:rrninh asn ',„ en and real:manic in theft. character. If the Noble L or d wished for a police force why did he not apply to the C ourt Leet rather than press forward this measure of centralization ? He would warn the Noble Lord if he proceeded with this Bill, he would never get back the money advanced. Nor would he venture to take the soldiers out of Birmingham. The very Tories whose advice he had adopted, would beg of him to let the soll:ers remain. The p o li ce t h emse l ve s would be sub jected to all mann er of obloquy and insult. The town a Birmngbam was n ow quiet; the law had resumed its course, and suchbeing the case, h e hoped the Noble Lord would pause and reconsider before he carried the judg ments paca'd at Warwi c k into execution; he hoped he would ponder well before he suffered the extreme penal tes of the law to be put in force. He appealed to the ,islahle Lord as a man of humanity on this subject ; he knew he was such, for although he loathed his po lities, yet as a man of humanity, and as a man of gentle manly and generous recline ' he admired and respected him. He hoped the Noble Lord would reconsider the subject, a.:d withdraw this Bill. If he did not, he should adopt the same course respecting this Bill as be had given no tice of on t he Manche,ter Bill—he should move as an amend. mens in Committee, that the following proviso be in. sorted :---" Provided always, that when the authority of the Mayor, Al leimen, and Corporation of Birmingham hail hc ascertained by due course of law, and it shall he shown they possess the legal right of levying rates, that from that rinse the authority of this Act shall cease and determine." on this being the commencement of a bad practice. He did not think much harm might be done by the vesting the appointment in this one instance in the Government, hot he ottpeted to this innovation on the old Constitution: He appealed to the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford for his support on this occasion. That Hon. 'Member had always stood up. for the Constitution; and he hoped he would do so now, when it was for the advantage of the liberty of the subject. He hoped that Hon. Member would say with him_ " Nolumus leges Anglia mutari," and not ectuen to deprive persons of the self-government of their localities. He would propose an amendment to the effect that the power of appointing the Commissioners should be seated in the Town Council of Birmingham in. stead of the Secretary of State. Mr. T. A 17 W 0 OD seconded the amendment. The Committee'divided, when there appeared— For the original clause For the amendment , ............. 20 Majority against the amendment._ —.43 Clauses 2,3, 4,5, 6,7, and 8 were agreed to with a few vci bal amendment?. Clauses 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. and the other clauses,were agreed to after some verbal amendments,and the Report was ordered to be brought up on Monday next. The House then resumed. COUNTY AND DISTRICT CONSTABLES strictions s from foreign trade, especially the trade in corn —( Cheers.) Could they deny that they had been enforc ing the new Poor-law to its utmost, and by that course of conduct they were telling the poor the: they must rely upon their awn resources? When the • poor watited to carry their labour to a cheap marbet, was not that refused them by the tax that was placed upon them . ?—( Hear.) It was absurd, therefore, to tell the people to rely upon their own resources. Could they dens that the measures promised for rendering justice cheap had been altogether passed by, while Judges and Magistrates hai been allowed to enjoy enormuus salaries ? The fact was that every good measure had been abandoned, and the votes of the last fe w da y s bad shown t hat instead h a -rates r e c s m . — tiiii Hear, hear.)eedl ( unredr es of decreasing, that H o use bad determined to inc rease t h e salaries p i 4 not theof the que Judgesquestion o f CI andiur c!Magistrates.Was it 'not as far removed fro m a settlement ' . as ever ? Was it net stated, when an increase in the army was called for, that the troops in Canada could not be reduced? Why was that ? Because no settlement ofthe CC affairs of those colonies had taken place -..( Hear,) When lie left that colony in November last, the merchants influen tial men there were in hopes that something and would be dune immediately to 'remove their grievances. Parliament diti not meet till February, and it wag now about 'to pre and nothing had been done for rogi.e, Report stated that his Right ,H Canada.—(HeAr, hear: ) of the . Board of Trade was on. Friend, the Preesidont colliery ; he must make . golog to try his hand -in that baste there if• be was going, other- wise he would fi n d no colony to govere.—( Hear, hear.) Then had not th e ore sera of the people for ' further reform been denied ?i Nothing had been done wilh :vs eet ..te Household, . - o d f h P •t had been found inconvenient - to - golAi it o n ie 4,..i s e nxti: - eternpittettenteleeee - Oita - to - t.Fii - riiiiin; lia Ih.'t.."-elaits of the pceplc were neglected, Then there was the motion protection.—( Hear, hear.) He would conclude by entreating the Noble Lord before the Session closed—and he was sure the Noble Lord would hold out no hopes that he did not intend to realise—to hold out hope to the country that something would be done—sonic little thing for their relief, during the next Session of Parliament-- some little thing for hope to rest upon during the recess. • He would not even hint at what that should be, but he besought the Noble Lord to hold out some hope that some attempt, however slight, would be made to alleviate their distresses during the next Session. He should be ungrateful, if he did not acknowledge that the Noble Lord had done something for the people this Session with re gard to the Post-office.—( Cheers.) That was a measure calculated to be of great benefit to the country, and he felt grateful for it ; but he was afraid the working classes would not derive any great immediate be. nufir from that measure.—(Cheers from .the Opposition.) They were too deeply dist re:sed—Alffcring too acutely from the pressure of the Corn-law. (Cheers from the Ministerial benclies)—to indulge in correspondence. The communication of distress was not very pleasing, .their imaginations were kept down by the pressure of these Laws, but let these Laws be repealed, let them be well fed and made comfortable, and the imaginaton would then soar into regions of delight, and an increase of correspondence would be the consequence. The people throughout the country sought fur an alleviation of their condition—there was a wide spread - agitati,n existing on this subject. What was the cause of this? The p..iople of this country were not _ naturaily a discontented. people.—( Cheers. ) They were not a disloyal people. —( R.onewed cheering.) They were not a sanguinary people.—(Continued cheer ing.) He was satisfied that the great mi4j.,rity of them entertained no desire to destroy either life or property.-- (Loud cheering.) He could state as a fact that throughout the West of England, where wages were so very low, there was scarcely a robberi. com mitted. The poultry and cock were - left coore in St. James's yard, the cellars containing the eider; and the houses, were guarded only by the must weak, \V est of England. rusty, and ill-contrived leeks and bolts, and yet there vies scarcely a robbery committed i n t he They were a well disposed, kind-hem ted, valiant people, 11 were t forward m e n .c,t' acsyfhualdl employment, p i r l , l ) e p i e r ,i d ti i o , n trc b sgs uu fur their alleviation, the House invaribly decided against them and in favour of themselves. • They asked fur' nothing tbiuotnethd they yo found house, and lien a v n e y r more than justice, and at last their demand for it had reached that House, and although he would be - the last man to uree them to acts of violence he would urge them to: continue their cornplaintq until their wrongs were redressed: - ~ Mr. T. ATTW OOD had listened with great pleasure to wages there the speech of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, and only re.. grated that the other Hon. Member fur Finsbury 'bid: full work one made his motion of so extensive a nature. The distress want . of emplbyment and want' of f as w a a l g l es o:fing to whomever ile-re was full work there was yeae, the, next low wes wages so;f full and 3 e employment. whenever he.). ~, (, r there e o ultf Noble Lord, like his predecessor on the Treasury Bench, was incredulous as to the existence of general distress, like the old lady who because she hal a good dinner smoking before her, wondered the: there could be any person starving 'in the country. ,The extreme misery of the c l as ses did not extend to the non-productiveproductive . . classes ; the landed' and the monied aitstoereey hadplenty 1-1.1 would remind the Noble Lord that at the conclusion of the war—( 'A laughh)---he had nodoubt but what the Noble Lord and the House knew ' what he was going to say— (Renewed.laughter).the y knew that he ' spoae the truth. \Vhen the peace esr e •e, the proud aristocracy e ro I d ceet e. to take advant age o f a l egal quibble, and he Go p s instead of foll ow i ng t h e example, of the t E mp e r • e e r r n m A l e e n x t . , ander_( A laugh)—and making the standard ss. in 'the pound, or making the standard even 10s. in the pound, which would have been a great weight upon the indase trious classes, returned to the old standard. But the landed aristocracy said, if you do this you will gobble up all our rents. Whereupon Moses the Jew said, we will give you a Corn-law before we have our money law, so that will enable you to kcop your rents. He believed that grins.ling poverty was the disease under which the country ; laboured. He was sure that coercive measures would not relieve this poverty, and unless this poverty was relieved there was no hope for the nation. The Noble Lord was like any' fling like the Bourbons, who, if they never The t Noble Lord never ):, never learnt arohing.— d d—.. he recommended—(Laugh 11r. e (Laugh never adopted am thing which d) °ravel ' ^ k ' 3 , .s rd what right ter)—and he (Mr. Atteooh,_, (Laueht,r.) If • this he had to sit on that ben i c Nnble Lord in n . ation, the industrious and i _ntellectua _ t _Could limes men could live by not estah'ish .0 system by which . l '-'' I e :=as not fi.. to hold the situation which he honest laboer, i - . . eld at present h . • ell man ought to be a Minister who abundant labour and cou ld not insure abundant food for the peoele. 1 • ole wo rd with:respect to th e Chartists. When he fund t h a t there•was no hope hall out by the Govern tmlit, fir the people, he thought it his duty to hold cut hoFe by legal means. and if the measures whielche recommended h4ta been eirrieft; he should at this time have been in ape. sition to deal.slt,h_the_Noble Lord. He supported - the -rots.-- TuTia, anTl hoped . that the . Noble Lord would, before the Aid of the Session, give seine sign that if the people weuld have patience, he would t;ike into his coniideration some Mr. BOLLINQ said he would support the second read_ ing on the understanding that the Noble Lord should steer an entirely neutral course between the parties. BILL. The Report of this Bill was brought up and received. The Bill was ordered to be read a third time on Wed nesday at 12 o'clock. The Bastardy Bill was read a third time. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL brought up a clause, providing, that parties against whom the Justices had an order of affiliation, might, by giving securities, appeal to the Quarter Sessions, which was agreed to and added to the Bill. Mr. FR ESHPIELD then rose to move the following amendment in clause 1, line 8, after the word " heard":— " Nor shall it be necessary for such Justices to require that the evidence of the mother of such bastard child shall be corroborated by other testimony, in cases in which such Justices shall be satisfied without corroborative testimony." He believed that improper affiliations were very seldom made, and he had been sorry that in the former Bill the House had thought it necessary to legislate for the excep tion, putting the rule aside. The SOLICITOR GENERAL could not agree with the amendment, because it proposed, not an amendment of the Bill, but an alteration of the law, which he thought it would not then be expedient to make. Lord G. SOMERSET would be very glad to see the amendment of his Hon. Friend, because the law was so vague that •it had given rise to varied practice in almost every part of tlie country. He thought the discretion of the Justices ought to be trusted. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw and the gal. lery was cleared, but the clause was negatived without. a division. The 'Bill was then read a third time and passed. SOAP DUTIES' BILL. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX. CHEQUER the Soap Duties' Regulation Bill was read a third time and passed. METROPOLIS IMPROVEMENTS BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved .be third reading of this Bill. Mr. HAWES said, this Bill professed to be a Bill .for the Improvement of the Metropolis ; but the title of the Bill could not be relied or,, because the boroughs of Lam beth and Southwark, which were entitled to be considered as a part of the metropolis as much as tile Tower Hamlets, were altogether left out of-the Bill. The proposed improve ments were to be effected out of the money derived from the coal duties, and as all parts of the metropolis con. tributed towards the coal duties, they had a.'right to share in the benefits that might be conferred by the Bill. What he would wish to propose, therefore, was that the Com missioners of Woods and Forests should have the power of applying part of the funds to the improvement of Lam beth and Southwark. Mr. CLAY said this Bill was the - result of the labours A' the Committee that had been appointed to inquire into this subject. That Committee had pursued its investiga, tion for three years, and three plans of improvement had been submitted, but the Committee felt that with the limited means at the dispossl of the Commissioners, they could only recommend those improvements mentioned in the Bill. He was aware that mauy improvements were required in Southwark and Lambeth, many improve. ments would also be desirable in Westminster, both as regarded draining and the thoroughfares to the Houses of Parliament, as well as access to the Palace.- But it had been proved that Whitechapel stood in the greatest need of improvement. From the report, of Dr. Southwood Smith, it appeared that the population of 20 metropolitan unions amounted to 851,229, among whom in the eouise Hof last year, there occurred 5.692 cases of typhus fever. being a proportion of 6-10ths, or more than one half per cent. whilst in the Whitechapel Union, which was one of the twenty Unions, the population was 64,000, and in that Union there were no less thati 1,505 cases of t3pus, being 2:1- per cent. of the population, Thee cases of typhus were traced to the want of drainage, , nd the Committee had recommended that a drainage should be opened in that neighbourhood. His opinion was, that when a few improvements were effected in the metro polis, public attention would be attracted to the subject, and that there would be a willingness on the part of the inhabitants to' submit to a slight taxation so as to enable all these improveMents to be effected in the metropolis that were so much wanted. Mr. H U MPH ER Y said, that if the expenditure of the money arising from coal duties were managed in a judi c;o.* way, there would, after all those improvements were roc tod which were contemplated by the Bill, be a largo surp!tis whi c h m i g h t b e app li e d to t h e improvement of - rotttr - prirta of the metropolis. One improvement cwrge ste- was - lh: making of a road from NV,stminster to Londo n _ biidt,e, which would make a diffcr..nce of three quarters of a mile, and which would not cost more than 50,000/. He (lid hope that . the ainendinelit of hii Hon. Friend would be a.rced to: HINDE supported the amendment. Afte7 u few words from Sir T. FREEMANTLF„ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHQUER said he shculd object to the prOposed amendment being made to the Bil!. In the first place, the Bill before the House was not F.. . - or the purpose of effecting the contemplated improve ments, but only for the purpose of giving to the Commis sioners o f Woods and Forests the means of ascertaining, during the recess, what would he the expense of com pleting those improvements, and it would be fur Parlia. ment to determine next year wheth e r th ose i mprovements ought or ought not' to take place. The present Bill had been unanimously recommended by the Committee, which was not a packed Committee, and he (the Chancel lor of the Exchequer) was the only Member of Go vernment on it. The improvement in Lambeth he was ready to admit was of great importance to the whole metropolis. But he was not going to discuss the merits of these different plans, but to carry out the objects of the Committee, which he was most anxious to do. Mr. H. 1-IIND E explained, after which the Bill wr.s read a third time. Mr. HAWES then proposed to add the following words:—" And also to make and complete such streets and roads in the borough of Lambeth. as may be approved by the Commi,sioners of Woods and Forest." The House divided— For the motion 34 Against it 8 Majority.. 26 The Bill was then passed. The Stage Carriages Bill was read a third time and passed. JOINT-STOCK BANKING COMPANIES BILL. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER the House went into Committee on this Bill. Mr. HUME said it would give great satisfaction to the public, if an inquiry should take place next.yeir into the state of banking generally. The Hon. Member for Tamworth had stated the necessity of this inquiry, and he ( Mr. Home) considered that it ought to have taken place during the present year. Toe CHANChLLOR of the EXCHEQUER had understood the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam worth: to say that an inquiry ought to take place before , he expiration of the Bank Charter. He entirely agreed as to the necessity of this inquiry, but whether it ought to rake place before 1840 or not, he could not at present state. The clauses were then agreed to, and the House re sumed. ' (Laughter.) I mean, that this is the place. Avhere it ou;ht to come in.—( Laughter.) • Mr. 'HODGES moved a clams:: for facilitating the ca,r mutation of fruit tithes. Mr. DARBY said the clause was a mast proper one. Agreed to. Mr. HODGES then moved a clause to remcve doubts as to the validity of agreements for the commutation of hop tithes.—Agreed to. Mr. AGLIONBY begged' now to propose a clau=e, to which the Noble Lord the Member for Lincolnshire had expressed his decided concurrence. He did not know if the Noble Lord the H 'me. Secretary had seen it. Lord J. RUSSELL intimated his , assent to it. The clause was then brenght, up. It provided for the settlement of disputed boundaries in parishes, by agree ment among a majority of the landowners. In answer to - Mr. DARBY, Mr. AG LIONBY said the clause was meant to prevent the expense and vexation of legal arbitrations. The clause was agreed to. - The House then resumed, and the Report ordered to be received on Monday. Lord J. RUSSELL postponed the Poor. rates Wee ion Bill to the same day. EXCISE LICENSES BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that this B• 11 he committed pro fie ma, in order that it might be reprintA, as he was engag,ed in communications with parties interested which might lead to some alterations. Mr. AG LIONBY expressed his fear that the Right lion. Gentleman, uho bad originally introduced a good Bill, was now spoiling it by acceding to the representations of that powerful body the Li cense d V ictuallers. The Bill went through Committee pro Prom. SLAVE TRADE SUPPRESSION BILL.. Lord PALMERSTON rose to move that in this Bill the Standing Orders might be su.petided, so as to allow it to pass' through ail its stages to-night. This we understood to be agreed to. The NOBLR LORD then moved the second reading of the Bill.—Agreed to. On the NOBLE LOWS motion the Bill went through Committee. and Mr. BERNAL brought up the Report amidst great cheering. On the question that the. Report be received, Sir T. FRE EMANTLE said lie should like to hear some explanation of the objects of the Bill. The CHANCELLORof the EXCHEQUF:R—There was a full explanation last night.._ ( Hear, hear.) - Sir F. FREMANTLE—I was not here last night.— ( A laugh.l Colonel T.' WOOD—The Bill has not been circulated among Members. Mr. P. HOWARD—It has been some time. Hon. Member cannot have read it.—( Laughter. ) Lord PALMERSTON said he had stated at consider able length last night the objects of the. Bill. He under. stood that the 'grounds of the rejection of the former Bill by the tiouse . of Lords arose partly from misapprehension and partly fr,,m an ohjection in point of form. And he hoped that thei.e objections . had been removed by what hid subsequently occurred in the Upper House, and liy the alterations which . had Wren made in the Bill. After a few words from Sir Thomas Freemantle and Captain Pechell; the Report was received. . Col. T. WOOD did not at all acquie,ce, in the prin ciple of the Bill. -It was quite a novelty and was depart ing from the usual custom obserVed with regard to the affairs of nations. There"veas no necessity . for the BA. He did not see why the Executive Government should not take the. respons'bility on their own shoulders, if Portugal receded from her Treaty, and make reprisals. If there was a difficulty in disposing of those reprisals, then they might come to Parliament. The ~. The ltcport was then ordered to be engrossed, and the Bill to be read a third time oh Munclay". On the motion of Mr. Cr. WOob, the Courts in Counties Bill was a read a 'second time. , . The; Parents for Inventions . Bill, the Sheriffs Exemp tion Bill, the Real Estates Liability Bill, and the Pri soners Trial Bill were severally read a second time, and ordered to he rommitt. , l on Moriday.. STATE OF THE' COUNTRY. On the Order of the D. , ,y being read for going into Committeo of Ways and &leans, Mr. T. DUNCOIIBE rose to move the following re solutions:— " That in agreeing to provide the means for an in crease of her Majesty's military forces, called for by the Executive Government at an unusual time and under pecu liar circumstances, it is the duty of this House to declare— " 1. That the troubled state cf the country arises from causes which the application of repressive means against large classes. of her Majesty's subjects will not remove. "2. That the existing discontents are in no small degree to be attributed to the ri — ep,lect of Parliament, in not taking measures for the improvement of the social and political condition of the people. ". 3. That, in particular, in the present Session Par _ . liament has refused to remove restrictions on the foreign trade of the country , especially the trade in corn , thereby limiting the demand for English , labour, and diminishing its remuneration, while the cost of subsistence is increased ; and the new Poor-law is enforced with the view of teaching the people to rely on their own resources, by the Same Le gislature which prevents the poor from exchanging their labour for tbe cheaper food of foreign countries. " 4. That the measures promised at the commencement of this Session, for rendering justice cheap and accessible to all, have been abandoned, while the salaries of Judges and Magistrates have been augmented. " 5. That the grievance of Church-rates remains unre dressed. - ;; - 6.That for a national education a very small and inadequate proiision has been made, while the military and naval expenditure has been greatly augmented. ' "7. That any necessity for an increase in the army is mainly occasioned, by the disturbances in Canada, 'and that, until a satisfactory arrangement of the affairs of that colony be effected, the relief of the people of this country from the expense of - its military occupation is not to be looked for; notwitlistand:ng which, the Session has passed away without any attempt by Parliament to effect such settlement. " 8. That the prayers,of the people for further reform have been disregarded. " 9. That protection to the elector, in the free exercise of the suffrage, was denied by the rejection of the motion to establish voting by Ballot. " 10. That this House has not only refused to grant any extension of electoral privileges, but even to take into consideration the prayers of upwards of a million of her Majesty's subjects, who solicited attention to their claim of franchise. " 11. That no hope has been held out to the people that at any future time Parliament will grant redress of their social and political grievances. " 12. That, until the spirit and course of legislation in the Imperial Parliament be changed, and proper regard had to the welfare and wishes of the whole people, instead of the interest of predominant classes, no security from she recurrence of such disturbances as the Government now demands the aid of- Parliament to repress, can be reason. ably expected." The Hon. Gentleman observed that the HoUse hiving recently consented to place at the disposal of her Majesty's Government the means of increasing the military force of the country, he thought that, as the representatives of the people, they owed it to the distressed millions from ,‘ , ll,se pockets the means of increasing the force came, to place something more on record than a mere money vote and a vote of coercion. The manifold grievances of which the people complained Were not altogether unfounded, and coercion • would not repress their complaints. It might be 'very easy for those who were basking in the sunshine of a Court, and who were enjoying all the tiles. sings of affluence and prosperity, to blame the people for their ithpatience and unreasonableness.—( Hear.) It was also very easy to attribute the distressed state of the coun try to the exorbitaney of their demands, but if the House would look a little into their own conduct they could not, as honest and impartial men, say they were altogether ex empted from blame, with regard to the condition in unfortunately, the country was at this moment placed. He was ready to admit that !natty of the charges and allegations contained in the resolutions might be extremely di,aArce. able to many Hon. Members in that House to affirm, but if they were true (as he maintained they were) they ought not in the present state of the public mind to shrink from acknowledging the justice of the charges. He was not so vain as to suppose that when the Speaker went up to the other House to meet her Majesty on the prorogation of Parliament, that these resolutons would assist hint to solve the perplexing quection of what they had done for the last six months, but he could not help thinking that when II tn. Gentlemen =et their constituents at those numerous mt et. ings and dinners that usually took place during the recess, and when they would bp called on to state what they had done—he could not help thinking that if Honourable Gentlemen would do him the honour to take this bill of fare to those dinners, they would Enid a complete answer to many of those inconvenient and perhaps disagree able interrogatories --(" Hear, hear, hear," and laughter. ) He must warn the House of the course they should pursue. They %ould deal with ail% resolution as they thought pro per, but it would not be sufficient in the eyes of the public for them to put upon the resolutions one of their cold, chilling, and contemptuous negatives.—( Cheers.) He asserted fearlessly that the House ought to adopt these re. solutions. He would not dwell loi.g upon upon them,' but he could not help asking with reference to a few of them whether they could be denied ? Could they deny that in the present Session the House had refused to remove the re. Mr. C. BULLER Wished to impress on the Hon. Gentleman the itnaol:cy of dividing the House at this stage, because it gave an air of factious opposition to a proceeding Which had hitherto bsen conducted on high ;sod constitutional grounds. The llou.e had decided in favour of the principle of the Bill. He proposed, there fore, to take toe sense of the Eouse as to th e pro. priety of keeping the appointment in the hands of the Council. He also wished to direct the attention of the Noble Lord to the proposal of the Honourable Member for Birmingham —that the Bill should not go MILITIA PAY BILL. further than ti r e reasons assigned—and that, when any The Report of the Militia Pay Bill was brought up, and Corpceaticm should be established in Birmingham, thin g s 'he Bill ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday. should be allowed tit return to the ordinary course, and the TITHE COMMUTATION ACTS AMENDMENT town should be allowed to be governed by the fecal autho. BILL. ricks. He would also take the opinion of the House as to On the motion of Lord JU ti N RUSEELL, the House the propriety of taking the authority out of the bands of went into Committee on this Bill. the Cos Clauses 1 to 8 were agreed to. Mr. SCHOLEFIELD said he was afraid ho should On clause 9 being pr ,, poed, disapp o i n t t h e w i s he s o f m any of his constituents, whose Captain PECH ELL objected to the tithe on fish, feelings acre vets, strongly a gainst the Bill. Th e N o bl e w hi c h oug h t long ago to have been abolished. He be. Lord had s a tisfied so nic of his scruples ; and if he would lieved that the tithe had been abolished in all places, with adopt the sugges tion of his Hon. Colleague, that would the exception of Norfolk and Cornwall. remove au a ddi t i on al o bj ec tion. He felt, iu common with Lord J. RUSSELL said he had endeavoured to make many his f r i e nds, th a t it would be dangerous to press some general arrangement, but there were so many con this matter, w ithout doing something to assuage the fee.ings flicting interests, that he had not been aisle to do so. of the people. When a petition was proposed in the Town. Mr. HUME thought this clause would give the power Council o n t his su bj,et it was rejected, on the grounds that to one or two individuals to make a settlement with respect theywould not in a ny shape recognise a measur e so insulting ; to Easter offerings, by which all the inhabitants of a town they felt it was an infringement of the liberties of the might be saddled with this payment, which ought to be pt 'o. Their opposition t o it was national, although ent i re ly vo l untary . H e w i s h e d t o k now w h et h er the l an d ed they felt it as a local attack upon them that they should be proprietor had the power to make this arrangement. the first Feinted for the introduction of this system, and The SOLICITOR•G ENER A L said the same pro that at the sugg estion of persons who had always opposed portion of landowners as might under the first Act enter the enfranchisement of Birmingham. ' into the general on , might, under Mr. WARL EY said that the Noble Lord mi g ht f ee l a this clause, agree to m commute the agreemen Easter ts offerings —that difficulty in ac c e ding t o tile suggestion at onc e ;he would, is, two-thirds of the landowners. True it was, that they therefore, sug gest that t hey should go into Committee pro would be taking on their lands a burden which would forma, end the discussian might take place On Monday, exonerate the occupiers, but that was in fact the eff2et of when th e N o bl e L or d cou ld state his intentions on the all commutations; and the ultimate result was the tame, subject. for the property became thereby more valuable. Lord JOHN RUSSELL had already stated that he Mr. HUME said he did not understand why an agree did not wish t h es e power s to continue longer than the ne- ment of the landowners should bind a whole parish, seeing cessity existed. With regard to the clause which the that the occupiers. and not the landowners, would have to Hon. Member for Birmingham intended to propose, it pay the Easter offerings. should be reco ll ec t e d t h at t h e trial in the Court of Queen's Lord J. RUSSELL said he was willing to have the Bench might not settle the question; further questions words "personal tithes" left our, for he certainly eon,i. might arise, and an appeal might be made from the first dered that personal tithes should be abolished.—( Hear. ) decision t o the Exchequer Chamber, and it might be Captain PECHEL Is asked if the Noble Lord thought carried from thence to the House of Loids. Therefore, ttiere was any probahility of the Tithe Commissioners re the Hon. Gentlern in must see that it by on means followed porting favo)nrablv as to the aboliti on o f fi s h t i t h e? that the case would be decided as speedily a s h e h a d an- Lord .1, RUSSELL said there were great difficulties— ticipated. but he did not &split-. Mr. WILLIAMS h o ped the Noble Lcrd would ac- The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 11 and 12, to cede to the suggestion of his Hon. Friend. He would which last, withdraw his aniendmen's - Mr. T. D UNCO MBE !flayed a proviso, excepting the The House than resolved itself into Committee. Lammas land, used by the cattle of p oor p ersons — w hich On cl ause 1 being proposed, was assented to. Mr. C. BULLER sa id be should take the sense of the Clauses up to 30 were agreed to. Clause 31 was struck House on the specific ground of the authority in whom out. the appointment should be invested. Many Hon. Mem- Mr. AG LIONBY said he wished. to introduce a - clause hers had supported the Bill on the second reading, on the before the 321. supposition that if they opposed. it they would present the The CH AIRMAN-At cannot be brought up now. establishment o f an efficient police in Birmingham. He Loral .1 RUSSTELL—You had better wait till the end wished they should not take advantage of disturbances of the Bill. ! existing iu_a.nyslistriet to break through th e - o ld constltes - Mrs./Ml=l l7 tional practices of the country. - His objection Wag foulidcd now._( La •-' the-moon 4 -mention it. , t i s . d don't mention it now,— E VENI N G for the Vote by Ballot ; that was denied, yet on all hands they were ready to admit corruption and intimidation were rife in the country. Where was the hope for the people h h e e w ar.2 0 if the Hous e wou ld not grant redress? He ma i nta in e d t h at every vote in the p resen t te di ous an d unsat i s f act o ry Ses t sion had g i ven t h e peop l e reason to complain.--(Hear, could they allhethis b e was surprised true, and that he th i e e nh rco l-14- a p i le were ledthldiitse was, tented and dissatisfi'ad ? He believed.' however, that it VVFS not yet too late to retrace their stes. He believed f they coniesset their Itt • r errors and assent to these reso- Wire as, they would give satisfaction' the lea people.— ( Cheers.) Much discontent would be removed; many a man's life would be saved, and - the use ©i=many a bayonet discontinued.—( Hear, h ear . ) If the House adopted his resolutions it would be a guarantee that they Were deter mined to do something—that their minds were fully made un to i c e anee their course of leeislation for the people's good. The Hon. Member concluded by the resolutions. moving resolutions. Lord J. RUSSELL mint. admit that the Hon. Mem ber. considering the extent of his resolutions, bad not ad dressed the House at any great Length in support of them, and as the Hon. Member had not thought proper to gointo any detail he should also fallow that course.. The main ob ject of the resolutions seemed to be to call upon the House to resolve that if they had taken a different course. with re fereree to certain measures, the discontents in the country would not have existed to the extent th•.iy did at proseuL Now with respect to many questions to which the lien. Mem ber had adverted, it WOS clear that those who had raised the discontented cry were the sole cause of their complaints not being taken into consideration. With reepect to taking into consideration the state of the Corti-laws, he was in - favour of that, if a general opinioa had been ex pressed on the subject on the part of the people; and he thought it Was not at all improbable that that motion would have been attended with success, but for the great opponents of the measure, who signed the petit . * for the Charter, whose object it was to prevent petitions coming to that House. So likewise with regard to the motion for establishing the Vote by Ballot. He had had heard many arguments against the Ballot strongly put, but none with more vehemence than those in the Chartist news papers.—( Hear.) So much for two' of the measures which the lion. Gentlensan had said would diminish the discontent of. the people. With regard, likewise, to the question of the Corn-laws, which the Hon. Gentleman bad put rather invidiously, he must say a few words. A good deal depended maim view which lion. Members took re. garding those questions. Many Hon. Members said that the present system of Corn-laws bore hardly on the agri cultural poor and a large portion of the labouring popula tion: He was sure that tin se . Gentlemen spoke sincerely, but still-his ( Lord J. Itussdl'6) opinion was, that a repeal of the Corn-AL/wit Would deplive those - people of the means of sustaining their families.—(Hear, bear.) That was his opinion, ; and those who co-operated with him supported him. The Hon. Gentleman complained that justice was not Cheap and accessible to all. He de- I nied such to be the disposition of the . 1 - louse.—(Hear, hear.) He admitted that the grievance of Church-rates was still unredreSsed that subject would. remain for the consideration of the next Parliament. He Must protest against the resolution that the people Could -have - no hope that the House would redress their scat' and political grievances. He ( Lord John Russell) was ready to sup. port any proposition for this purpose which he could agree to; or, perhaps, he could bring forward a measure himself. Looking ever a period of ten years, be ,must beg. leave to say that he ( Lord John Russell) had not shown himself backward to redress social and political grievances. And -he might say that in general that was the character of the House.—(l - lear, hear.) It was, therefore, most unjust to throw out such insinuations. The Hon. Gen tleman -said* that the House had refused the prayer of a petition signed by more than one million of men. ,But the real question was whether the House was prepared to give Universal Suffrage; Vote - by Ballot, Annual Parlia ments, and an abolition of the property qualification. The petitioners made those propositions absolute, and would accept nothing nuless the: whole of their demands were conceded. lie - had 'opposed the con sideration of the petition, but e the petitioners could no t complain that he ( Lord J. Rtissell) had ,deceived them. And he thought that those gentlemen who had rejected the petition, and yet could bring forward propositions about Household Suffrage and Annual Parliaments, would do more evil than good by irritating the minds of the people.—( Hear, hear.) Other propositions in the peti tion might be good ; but he ( Lord J. Russell) would con tend that with respect to the Chartists and -the - Gerieral Convention their object was to incite the people to arm and seize the property of others, and that, they would not be satisfied until they had changed places in society. and placed their leaders in the positiou of the formera--( Hear, hear, hear.) He believed it was for thaw objects that the people had been deluded. He was determined to support our authority at home and abroad ; therefore, in the case of Canada especially, he had deemed an iect case of our mili tary force necessary, though be hoped the question disturb. ing that colony would be soon set at rest. Mill a strong military force would be necessary for some time., On the whole, therefore; he disagreed with the Hon. Gentleman, .as.- his motion . went to censure both him and the Government, and; therefore, he must vote against the reaoltations.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. WA KLE Y thought the Noble Lord had mis- taken the resolutions of" his Hon. Colicaoe. They did not censure the Ministers, but the House, which he thought was infinitely more to blame.—(Hear, .hear.) - Tnit House seemed to have no real sympathy for th e fights and sufferings of the people. Wh - en tltey wanted tailx•ht their battles with the people, and to enrol thcim in .the military, or the police, they called them the good valiant people; but when they wanted to beep down their libtrties they called ererY, thing required .by the people bid. 'For his part, he Ifoped . the people would continue content, and make the House soon feel it. .-.-(Hear; bear.) But then it was said the commercial : .classea had protection; but they replied, if they wero -given fair play they stood in need of no . proteetion--givo th em a free trade in corn and they stood in deed of no proteotion against any country on the globe, but while th e y continued to tax food, of course-they stood in need of ;jO O !et' use ate' hid ,di Pre. the pea day ti"'' hot veS• Na g a nd ibel Lord but her ° lei to fro ll/ ye e. (l [,,00 free Pe" Benif se v viabt I, go I do' ;0 0° froo 7 - 1