The Sun. — London, England, 1803-06-28 00:00:00

few wnras respe&ing them. ,It was certainly 'necessary thlt the number of men to be raised should tie framed in the Bill, but• on the Ocher hand they had upon all - occasions been allowed to pro vide The m.n in their own way. He by no means wished that they should enjoy any peculiar exemp ti..n. but he 1;,1 not know upon, what criterion the numbers wereixeti for the Cinque Ports, because he was not aware of any precedent they had to go upon. Ile had no desire that they shottid be exempted in point of numbers, but at the same rime he thought *' it his dory to state, that there was no example of the number of men being fixed for the Cinque - Ports by an ' Aft of Parliament. It would there. fore perhaps be better that some' means were adopted fOr ascertaining the due proportion:which they ought to furnish. He had no reason to sup. pose, that if means for .ascertaining their due proportion were adopted, that it would make any material change in the numbers they were now called upon to provide ; but still he thought it would be better to prOceed in that manner than to decide arbitrarily, without having any sure ground to go upon. At the barer end of this Bill it re. (erred, in speaking of the Cinque Ports, to the 42d of the King ; but it had nothing to do with. the Cinque Ports, for they were exempted out of it in the usual way. He had also to observe, that he doubted, whether the Warden or his Deputy were competent to carry this Ad into execution ; he thought the Deputy Lieutenants were necessary ; now there were no such OfficerS in the Cinque Ports : he merely threw this out for the con. sideration of his Right Hon. Friend, beeitisc he wished the Bill to be carried ititnclie4 as speedily' as passible. The SECRETARY at WAR saids, it was his intention to propose to leave out that clause, and to muf f . duce another . clause relative to the Cinqtit' Ports. With regard. to the number of men, he pro. _ posed that the number of men to be raised by the Counties, be 32,000, anti by the City of London, the . .Tower.H.ontets, and the Cinque Ports, 2000 more. • 'With revid t 5) the City of London and the Tower : Hamlets, they had pretty good means of ascertaining the nurnbersond he hoped dat 400 men would not: be thought too niany for the Cinque-Parrs, • Sir WILLIAM YOUNG said, he ti%ught 'it very hard upon Counties 'which had raised large Volunteer Corps, nil for limited service, but who were ready toomarch to any part of Great Britain, that .they should be called upon to furnish as large' qUot,4 as other Counties. He alluded particularly: to the County of BuCks, in which there was a yeo. ninny force of above‘soo mon ; the consequence of this be; that there would be a necessity of ballottiog one matt out of sixteen to make up the nuniber they were called upon to provide under this Bill. Tite•SECR ETARY at Watt said it was not peculiar' to the Cotitity of Ncks that they had raised large Volunteer Corps, nutty other Counties had done the tame.. Mr. PITT said it would be very injurious to the operation of the Bill it this sort of competition for exemption was indulged in. The County of Bucks was certainly intitled to great praise for its exer tions in furnishing a Volunteer force, bin he could riot conceive how their having embodied sooVolonteers, could make it necessary to ballot nne man out of 16 in that County, which was so much more than in other Counties, The SECRETARY at WAR theti moved, that the number of men to. be . furnished by the City of London' should be Soo, aid by the Cinque Ports 4 00 ' Mr. Alderman' COMAE said, itwas not, he• was sure, the wish of the City of I.ittidon lo prmilde less thin their' fair i qoportinn, but as they had pecoliaf privileges upon this subjeCl, he hoped this Clause would be suspended until some firrther coniideration could he had. The SECRETARY at VAR said, if it was the desire of the Magistrates of Loildott; he had no objection to rstpune the Clause„ There were however precedents in which the City of London had been called upon to provide men for the public service. If however the• Magistrates wool(' take this duty upon themselves, and bring in a till,' he certainly had no abjection to the. Claude. The L:IR D MAYOR of LONDON said,• he was sure the City of Loiulon was anxious to provide their full proportion of Meri, and if this Clause was left out. he .11:id no doubt but that the City would come forward in • a Way that would be perfedly sa lisfaetery, • It Wai agreed that the Clause should, be suspend ed.: Sii R.OO r.RT BUXTON, on the third `Clause being read, obvetved, the Secret/ry at War had spoken of amending the Lists ; he thought it ivQuld be the better way to make new ones, • 'fhe Si CRETAity at Wm: Sai.d the old,iicL, -fere to be amended wh4.ire it was possible, if not, new ones were to be ride. Sjit/TlflaiJ, that the Secretary at War had given no reaton why' the age was to be taken at 16 instead of thought persons of .t 6 were too , young, 'particularly as the - Seeretary at War had gpicn nn reivion for tt. A; this rnea r Sure had a view to property as well a 5 err personal see vicei its persons who were ineomptv2i,t to SerlT in person ..4,:cre,' if they:had 'sufficient property bounti.tO provide a substitute, he, saw no reaia),:• why upon. that principle women paying 3 61. a year 'tar the ', l / 4 Ssessed Taxes should not be coMpelled to provide substitutes, bt,:cause the, principl! of fur the potation of property, and theic_ tore he 'saw no : reason why -women should he ex. c:npred more than a tnan - 0f95, who t'. is certainly „..is incapable to serve as a woman. lto was sorry to be so ungallant as to make such a proposition ; Lot if property was to be taken into consideration, ,;!,, well as . perSotial set v ice, he . Was really. of . .opi. nion, .that women of large property ought to con 1111.itve in proportion 'to fr, 'Fhe_C F.TA RY at WAlt laid, be certainly had omitted to state the reason Why he tools from the agv ( , f to3n 18. The mon was,: that hy t h e o ki Law of F.:fshod, all irerAons from 'x6 to 6o were hound to stand forwatti in e-lcienrc of the Coli.try when called upon by the Sheriff, and he ,„„ why the game principle httoolti hot be Li:, C.I:.C, As icy tlic liccund propositiun of the 'Hon. Gentleman with regard to women, be knew no' instance,in which women had been called upon to provide' substitutes, Cxcept in tie case Of tie Provisional Cavalry, and there it was attended with such ineonveniences,,that he thought it was a sufficient reason for not introducing it in_ to this Bill. If the Committee approved of it, he shOUld propose .to include, all persons between 16 and 60, but 'that those between 45 and 6o -should not. be called upon to serve personally, but should be called tr'pon to provide a substitute. Mr. Wi LI, lAM SMITH said, he always thought the Ptovisional' Cavalry a very injudicious ntea sure : but still he thought that. the.principle of it, as far as it exten*d to' women, might very well be intretduCed into this howeve.r he did .mit mean to persist in his proposition. GeweratillAlTLAND said, he concurred with those Gentlemen who thought the age .ought to he extended to above 4i years, and he was sure that in this opinion he should he 'supported by every man who had seen large-military establishments, because . there could he no doubt, that more real and-elledive service could be had from men aDove 56 years of age, provided they were healthy, than could be ex_ petted from boys of from 16 to iB. He therefore thought the age ought certainly to be raised above , 45• Mr. G. PANSITTART said, he was very glad to hear the sentiments which had been expressed by the SECRETARY at WAR, upon the - subjed of age, because otherwise it was his intention to have moved to enlarge it to 4.8 years instead of 4.5. He was not aware of any objection that: could posiibly be made to this proposition; because the service for which the men were. to -be raised, was an im mediate service, .as an Invasion was apprehended.; and, secondly, becaUse the period' of. service was limited to four years. e Sir HENRY ST. yormr MILDIII AY said, Ire saw no reason why. persons 'above sixty years of age, who inherited large hereditary property, or who had•acquired large fortunes in trade, should not be compelled to tannish a substitute, because, as 'the Bill was for the protection of property, those who possessed it, whatever their age- might be., ought to he compelled to contribute, and he wished therefore to suggest the propriety of inserting a clause 'for 'compelling all ',ennuis who possessed toool. a`year, even though above 60, to find a substitute. •' Mr: SHERIDAN . said, it was unnecessary for `him to state, that he did not rise to throw any Ob. kdions in the way of the Bill. There were some few poiniS, Ithwevcr, Upon which he wished to say ' a word or two. In the first place, he thought the age of i 6 much too low ; it 'would be much better to add 4 , - few years to the 4.5, than to take it from the S. One strong reason' which induced him to b of this opinion was, that if they took lads from 16 to 18, they would very considerably diminish that class of persons from whom substitutes were most likely to be procured. because, he believed that the greatest number of substitutes would he found to be of that age ; but his principal ohjediory to this proposition was, that it was going upon too low a scale, and not sufficiently regarding the manly population of the Country. He did not doubt that this Army could be filled with stout and ablemen, if the Gentlemen of the Country would m;ke the necessary exertions. There, were t't' that . moment (he did not speak i t f rom loose repOrt, but, he be. heacd, from 'accu'rate information) more men env ployell in the constration of buildings, whether for pleasure or business, round this:-I'Vletropolis, than there were in the whole of the•regular Arniy and With such a population it 'certainly could not be necessary to - resort to boys to fill the ranks. With , regard to what hatr fallen from the Hon. Member behind him (the kit speaker) he said,' he saw no reason; why- a man of property . above • 60, shdifld nor, if he' possessed' a sufficient property, be com pelled, because, though- -a man of 76 or upwards, could not carry a-musket with any groat eff:d, yet there were very few-of them who were intit able to put their hands in their pockets. 'Menibers of Par.' liament,• Peers, Cabinet „Ministers,- even Judges,' were not exempted, and when the Bill assumed that persons who from their inflation could nut possibly serve in person, were yet compellable to provide a substitute, - he saw no reas on why 'men, whate ver their age might be, provided they had sufficient property . , should be exempted. The Right Hon. Gentleman had fixed the- criterion of propertythe paying of aol.:a.year to the Assested . 1 / a xes this he 'did not approve of, because there were many men, there,were crowds of young met* in this town who did not pay the Assessed , Totes, who were still very well able to contribute. He•wat also not disposed to concur With the proposition of an Mini' Gentleman behind him,•that persons above-a : certain age, who posseSsed toool. a year, should be compelled to find a substitute: it appeared to him that instead Of 50031. a year, 2001. a year would be the fairer trite. ripn. There waiatiother point upon which Ile whiled to say a few words. Persons below a certain size 'were exempted' from personal service, but there were many of them, as Gentlemen must know perfedly well, who would feel hurt that they ' were not al. lowed, even by Sibstitute, to contribute to the service of the Country. It was very well know° that very frequently- "Great 'and 'daring Souls' dwelt in little Men," and it would be very hard' - to tell. a man of 'high rank and large fortune, that be- Cause he was under five -feet two inches, he must not cuntribUteto the - rotedion of hia.Countty. • Wi t h , regard collie idea of women being included in the Bill, he disapproVed Of it altogether': it would he . very inconvenient,' to sly no more of it, for a wo. mats to be running about telling-o:very body that she wanted a man for a Snbstitute., thereicire hoped that proposition would not be attended Sir =JAMES PULTENEY wished to know what was to he doile in the case of persons' above so. Th e SECRETARY altrAßiAld, they were to' ballotted' . frrr s and' if, ,they were brawn, were to find a substitute, if - they possessed sufficient-property.; Mr. KINNAIRD said, he wa;.it ally "anxious to know whether this Ail! proceeded upon the groaiid of personal-service or of property .I rpersons who could not, from age'orsituatithi,- serveEpersonally, • were liable do be ballotted if they had a certain pro.' perry, • it proved tittir the basis' of the Bill was ,pro.: perry. If that was -the - case, *there `were-exemp. Lions in the Bill, which he thouglit could out be de. fended , upon any principle 'Whatever: If I'Lsers, Members of Parliament,' fudges, and Cabinet Mi nisters. were liable' to be though it Was obvious that they . could nut serve in person;: he saw no reason why the Bench of Bishops and beneficed CL-rgy; who had livings to above a certain armunr, should not be Cotnpelled to provide substitutes. lie should certainly propose au atuendment to.that fedi, Si; . W. GE ,IRY - said, tlka! every man wasboued to come forward under the present siruatioo of ainits, but 'this measure seemed to him_ to bear very 'hard upon .the: Public ; it was not indeed like tire Con, scriptions in Vrance, but it- had some resemblance' to them.. PULTEA EY said, he sacs , little difference between this inea`sore and the Supplementary Mili tia, ekeept 'that, in this-Army the Substitutes . were placed in the situation of every other man in the Country, that is to say, that they were allowed, if they chose it, to volunteer into the Regular -Army.' On the subjed of the Clause . which related to the age of those who were subject to be hi-Monett for, it waa •proposed that the age should he thus: From the age of t 8 to 4.5 generally, a n d f ro m the age of 45 up to 50, provided the person shall be .assessed to sum of : 301 a.year Assessed Taxes. M. PITT said, as to the number w•hich would be•procured• for the present purpose ready for the field by thos extending the liability froin the Otte of 45 to 50, it did not appear to be very considerable ; it was a point to 'which, under all the present cir curnstanees, he did not attach much importance; they were as nothing, while compared with' the fa.. eiiity of making out the ballot without much delay ; anti therefore, notwithstanding what bad been said• upon that. subject, he 'could not help doubting whe. Cher the difference syhich would arise in consegoeece of including persons of the, age of between 4 5 and 5o would compensate' for the loss - or delay of one week in the forming of this :Force ; for Gentlemen should always bear in mind, that 'this was a system intended to •he carried into died without loss of time, ?'tai to hetir in mind also, that this measure, was'by no means all the exertion of the Country. • Our efforts were not to he e t nsfined to thi s • the contrary, he • thought soli other SUppletiiell:3l Foice, locally in Counties, ought •to be ,resorted to, and in eatek of aCtual -.lnvasion to extend to every : part ()Utile Kingdom. He therefore submitted to the Committee, whether.thfre were 'not strong red, sons for reserving the consileration Of the age sit - oye 45 to 'another ease,-. which was: to be brough: Ward. fOr the 'eme,rgeoey -of this occasion Wnethet •-it was :worth'whde to • call nn these persons until that measure was brought forward, and whether,' for the .present, it ,was, prudent' to adopt a regula. thin that might. materially • impede the whole operation of this—Bill in the oresent situatiOn of thiogs, and that the more especially •when there tsar so . much difference of opinion in the Cortstnittee.' He submitted, therefore, whether it would not be 'better'to adhere to the original Llst ; for his Right Hoti. Ftiend,. the Secretary at 'War, had already in. formed the Committee, that the difference between a new and - the old List s might ,make the difference olsevert days, which. was the more to - be attended to, when the present season of the year was con. sidered. He could nut add, tt - and considering sbeveo ra ti otot o f the Enemy,'' for such prepara, lions he did not know, but he might add, consi". dering, at least, the avowed intentions ofthe Ene my. He Mild not help thinking, that in the pre_ sent conjunt!inre, a question 'of a - week's time was really . more important to this Country t h a n t h e ail. ference . which might arise from including ail those between the ages of_4s atsti so in the Levy, 'always remembering, that Without aby delay, be Should hope in the present Ses;ion, another measure was expeded to be propored,,,by which thosevery per. sons, .and others •of an higher age, would .be called upon to contribute according to their' station anti ability.' Considering, therefore. this Bill as an inipoe taut measure in itself, Considering -also that a .gteat part of its advantage .was the speed with which it was to be carried into executioo, lie coal.; teat help recommending to the Committee, to drop 'the amendment. altogether; and to adlierc to thto origi ng l• age.; for we should lose snore in.time titan we should gain in-,number by mitering the List, and nothing could be more imptirtant to us at present titan time. Sir ROBERT BUXTON observed, - there was gteat force indeed in what had j ust 'Linen flotn•the Right Hon. Gentleman. When Parochial Constables came to make' out the List, and to prepare it for the ballot, .and to dO that part which belonged to them, it would befoimd there waadifficulty etiettgls in the execution of the Bill, even althongli u:d List was adhered to. It ivould not be an coo, in et_ tee' to make theM underittind . the . Bill ; 'and' some time he feared would . he taken up its some of them in •the part they were 'to rake in car rying this measure into execution ; In it wotild be still innre so it' the List was to be altered, aid then a great deal of time might be• lost ; for-these reaions he though it would be infinitely, wiser to adhe te to theiottner age, and to make no difFerence, or at least as lit tle'.difference us possible in the old List. Ge . neral AlAIl'L,al) Orre,yas great tae. cessity in point of time ill this case ; but he wish:A to understand how the age was'now to t:q! hilt : he tintlerotood it to be now from the :le o f 18 to 45. He agteed with the 'sentiments of the Righfilon. Gentleman (Mr. PITT) as to sOthe eddi, tiotsal and supplemental Force; which 'nay here, after he raised, besides the present meaoire, 'for the still futther • defence 'of •this Countr e, upoli a principle with reference' to the- ability of ;:or-,!nr..; to defray the expends Of it. lie thought Ei!C:l is !II sore ought also to be adopted soon, and he :,greed entirely with the• Right Hotionrable Gentleman that time was extremely valtsable in this car, :!nd. that nothing should be adopted in the present Bill whith would have the effkl of tionecessarilv eoesomiog , time ; and 'he believed, that if the List was i,'be altered,. we 'should. lose More in time than We' should gain itt. numbers. • • - Sir ROBERT BUXTON -sail, that if difrerett ages from the• old List of Militia tVn.e' to be adofited,• there Must, be new Lists, and that would take 'tip' min* . e time, the whole of whit cai;ght be saied' by . rale i•tsi the Old List. • The.- S'E C R TAM' 'at:JVill?-said, that first h.? had intended to propose the age b e between ; 6 nna liab'e to rrtbnal serr7Pe, or to fiod ,Strbstitute, and then from the wit 4.; to ;D. ;i!:e inanner, - prov.%led the:rerson W,,. assessed jol. ye..: fdr. the Asseised Taxes; but now he colleted twa the CoMmittee wished the age should .be from CO 44 . , and then frnin the age of 4.; .0 50; in Cale tier Assessed Taxes date. person were what he had stated them to be ; but it was inditTerent to him as- to the ages bk-tween 4.; and 50, provided the &it was carried with speed, and the number he had stated raised. 1-le had thought that the age be. • tweert . 4.sanil 56 might be taken in upon t he present occasion,.*but there rn:glit ; be another measure by wl,:ich they . might be called upoO for sera o r tor. sol)sti tures, .as he had already stated. As to the. list, he had a clause in his,band, to regulate this mode of making new lists, in cases where that ~,,would he necessary.. • Sir W. W. 'WYNNE said a few words, which we could not distindly .hear. Mr, .IV.- V IINSITTART said, that with respett to the saving of din, there would be a di6retice of a fortnight, if any alteration was t ame in ! li s s . r. For there Must be time to give the ' ol licers of the Parish notice to make out a new list, rid afterwards they must be hung up at the Church door • and remain a Week before ,the ballot could I ,3 'd place, which would amonot to a fortnight's limo' , whereas, by taking the old list, all that - time would 1 be saw - ed. PITT said, he certainly meant to I.,ave . fa.,''l'"- mined to the Conifnittre, wilt - Ott' It Was tip( 119`..*: ter to forego all. idea of adding to the list 111 01 persons who were above the age of 4-5 and up to 5 0 , and from so upwards, provided the peo° 3 should be assessed 301. a year to the Assessed ' l4 ' 6 ' The ground of the distindinn betweet) those will paid s o much to the A ssess ed Taxes, he approv,' upon principles of equity, and that it would m 3, e' tie measure more effettual ultimately, by exten ta ti the age from .4.5 to so,,he wis ready to admit ; bug • set ect was th tith ich this plant i; f c t e' s ge a r s ae: t 1 ° 1 ° 1 1 ; 1 , 13j t fe l e ) d c e a I iio pt 2t :): 1 ) 10 r 1 iety or matlie matieal ac - ,:uracy—either as it regarded the obit"' • tehom it WJs to opefate, or as it mig ht O.' gard-the State. He had••no difficulty in :iyirigt f' measurt was neither a measure founded on 1" principle of personal service wholly, nor w holly °a . !lie idea of the Contributio n of Property; b ur i t was ' a blended 'principle of Property and ro-, • Service, and St) was the whole ss'sien' ( ; )I , ( t ) u u t r io lV r i a i l li , t ; i r a o:ti a o7, l v t s i :s le o f t7trof t o tl ° )e bi g e il l es t t o lo - i t t i. " l c n ° d iej it was a m 5.4 sure founded %Too that which co', notle quireoiccorat'ely defined, }it which was sv h e. felt astir tiOdertttlOti, arld witS .. alat which ourCO*. , S 111136011; ab:IVC all things, en)bled . 116 t o 3 ` l°P naliely; practical expedience in human soci et y grader, all its circumstances ; an d thereforeire 501),„itted the Committee the propriety •of co nsidering it al . that view, and jttilging - of it by that standard. with regard-to those who paid 3QI. a Year t `' Assessed Taxes, being made to contribut e,. he eS' not think that the advantage to be to cmiatohdnielsriucettioni.olearnne)‘,vsoauulbtlmedriatbetticoana,ntyo• the like: an . -• the losi of time which would be occasioned by t It he ing in - this distinction tile pte , ent '2 ' ll ; be better in t h e i m . fen t. cas e to cooforn? " 1 • 111111er than i Pri,"CiPlt of the Bill :19 it ':matt, as he had said already; was not tO oe cd • lie thought it would be better to P 4- ' 3 t than. it` could be tilt Measure with some defeas in it, so that_ i t 'night Ise carried into \execution_ soon, char) much timeshouldibe taken Up to give it an e i time ; for After e .a n l f i o , re e i r n i g t ex pea.. perfedion,- or even in bring it nearericta'ovlll'l:cechtellewl:kc.,(:. t spatch. be some t e ' a o s b . a e ei N i l o e n a s t s v u s i t r t ; e h i l re t g t , ): ew'b' those thnoilgtilvel s h a l ( 1:a d • y 1111,d fault with every thing, but the .question %Os, l w ,t1 1 , ) , : o(? 1 , 1 ,1 1 b e el r m - ,r i e t tcoa w mt a o, s anke r n i r : i t at !l better, than too touch d who 'Should }rave 114:11:: forced,. to overlook di:liculties, and to recoiled other means were to be ' adopted which m i g ht al : could t in tl>e tiro old : and oral}' N 9 1 : ° 'l ic t ati r e: 1 1 -la s t e ri t ttf, : v li c i l ti r ,‘,ll : lve l: ) tcr v i ,e l i c,L l:. t i Lo u chiL r arv: l s i,onii ‘eiv l t : l r V ae l e ! fip - t e „ b t t ( I ) or dispatch, r would .110 - bett e t: irne ter l;':;:Vvo°Cfi(ittl'iir)ll6lle).l:7e)enb:ll:tk: atTvati , tages of including' a • greater nainbef 01 1 ."} : sotyr- - ia the risk of being ball,otted; ,after the had beet) Lured - which would ;,company the new altii,,,i)g!) certainly . a - h e -a.vier ote's u 'i would be felt' by those who wete - nnw to be b3 ll t )tt ' ; `„" than•if .thealteration 'was. to have taken pia" :' eludingpertons•ablve the age of 4:5,.; Still he w''' ost.;(ft:tio:tirmitni);::)tilfh!' that i e e y i r l e i :at , h i rn o ‘ i v i r l e : t i 1 1 ) :F` i l t i . ti ) d ill i tI l i c 17 1 , a r tit it: : . if the the ,s,imolicity of - ,the plat), the di rot • of It, and the facility of its execution, that of.tj 4. the old list as it ht‘)A, he was desirbus of adop t i ng the seot:znent of liisßight Hon. Friend (Mt. P rr if l) i . and which he had just eZpresied, He•was Perg ualL that we should 'oecoineentarigleil in difficulties if n A ca c r ii . list was to be. made out, which would all be 311°41C by;taking the -List as it was; an d he court n ot heW-,iit xr t ex is l ;ll S :L to overtook ir al :e o r p look little dic i e thatih6 iV i ag u i l s t t i r e a s t , for eswtlru:iso6: l . of the execution a' t his 'plan, which he wished I : t r z e zc er ity rne o n t d i i ts o e n x:o c a c t o i u o t o it .. f . its simplici,t`yLtiai:pdatic:4. GOOD approved of the idea of in •this case. , 150,001 met) were liable to be d ia ' sll • in die M xlttra, and it was not necessarrto re f " M any new measure to increase the number ,l. lettly agreed with 'the •Right 'Hon. Gentlema n ° P I ;„ ' i site to . hint plr. PITT) that )4) rat eedithln. was " ea: ;itYle. In the first place, therefore, he was sati'n.of. wi th the mode of taking the . into frotp ,the jgeuld. - It? to +5, according .to the ; this s:io save • tone. tiereatter another measure mightttio-0 taken; and property - Insight be made the er".c and by - which it should be judged of, and a new - large Levy might-be inad‘2. xr L iftiVE NC E P,eIRSONS was clearly 0 this CO P . nion that we should not lose any,-tooe 1 ... g t S' 'fin Committee-should recoiled, that I be O - 0