The Sun. — London, England, 1844-07-23 00:00:00

last, off and such to the be was e Ilouse► be better his haul 1 July 21„: John Warner , manor not to le ship or ward the ; that It 'ronl th e Id not be declared ravesend► Signed by ;hero was .?rtificatef I said he en intro are 10° a stating grant )bject i ti ° b e ha,. g into 5 re Bie lt . ernnleuv ihich be self With Thick he s which ttlgiers ..,a and the French Consul was of a trifling nature. his popularity with the French people when he next ,n,..11 t was the origin of that between France and visited Paris, without losing his patriotism in the House '•u•oroeco ? That Ab7l-el-Fader, the hero of the desert, of Commons.—(Laughter.) had, sought refuge in the country of the Emperor, having Mr. SHEIL—I did not "sneer. I said nothing. been driven from his own dominions ; the Arabs of that j Sir R. PEEL knew that the Right Hon. Gentleman nation, feeling tale combined influence of nationality and said nothing, but the Right Hon. Gentleman was natu lehaion, cheri s h e d hi m , a nd th is was the casts belt. But rally so eloquent, that a shrug of his shoulders or a had they not reason to he k with caution on the shadows . sneer on his face was as expressive . as language from an esiiieh events were casting before them, and by which other.—(Laughter.) Monsieur Guizot had declared in the Medit erranean was now d ar k ene d ? It was man if es t th e F renc h Ch am b ers th a t th e F renc h Go v ern m e n t had - that the same course -would be pursued in. Morocco ! no views of conquest with regard to Morocco—they re garding our cernmerce as was pursued in Algiers, if the had no views of territorial aggrandisement, as the terse- French gained posse ,sion over it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. j tory of Algeria was quite sufficient for France. He said zleGregor, in the second volume of his statistics, gave the , that they disclaimed cherishing any views of the sort, but strength and power of Morocco, and the commerce of this ' they merely demanded from the Emperor of Morocco country with it. England, in 1839, exported to Mo- that they should live in peace and their frontier be rose" 299,0001. 163 English vessels were, in that year, secure. They demanded that the assembling of troops by employed in the exportation to Morocco ; whilst in that the agents of Morocco or Abd-el-Kader should be pre sP.'ne year, only 12 of their vessels were engaged in the vented, that those officers who, contrary to the rights of !aloe trade. He did not ask the English Government nations, had attacked them, should be recalled and to question the policy of the French ; but he wished to punished, and that if the Emperor of Morocco were do eintier.,tand what precautions or steps the British Go- sirous of giving an asylum to Abd-el-Kader, he should v rnment had taken, and whether our force in the be directed to repair to the interior or to the Medite rranean. was equal to what it was on former occa- sea-coast, and that a fixed residence should stons when its weakness was made the object of cen- be assigned him, and that guarantees should sure, In IS3B, the Duke of Wellington, whose autho- be given that from a friendly state he would not direct rity nas great on naval as well as on military questions, his attacks on another friendly state. Such were the Per mare nut terra, being in opposition, said the fleet intimations given by the French Government in the was not sufficient. He (Mr. Sheil) naturally looked to most frank and unreserved manner. The Right Hon. what th e s t a t e o f t h e B r i t i s h fleet in 1838 was in the Gentleman had adverted to the state of their naval force, Mediterranean;—sh;ps of the line 18, frigates 29, sloops and taunted them with their leaving it neglected. There ?Y, bri g s 29, war . steamers 22. The Duke added that was no doubt, that seeing the revenue of the country was there. sh ou ld b e a squa d ron rea dy f or an y emerg en c y ; and insufficient to meet the expenses of the country, they !lie present Prime Minister of England expressed himself thought it right to husband the public money as much to a similar effect. What was the state of the British as possible ; but he thought that they had not neglected navy i n ; 1541 when the Whigs left offices It was as the exigencies of the public service. In 1838 (he was 4)11 ° ,, s :--Ship of the line, 26 ; frigates, 36 ; sloops, now speaking of grants for the efficient service 40 ; brigs, 37 ; armed steamers, 22 ; other war vessels, of the navy, discarding the estimate for the packet ser -3,- Now let them compare the state of the navy in vice and the revenue service)—in 1838 the estimate for : 84 1; when the W lugs left office, with what it is in this effect of the naval service was 3, 085 , 0001 . Last year 1844, when the Tories are in :—Ships of the line, 9 ; it was 4,400,0001. The estimates for the last four years frigates, 32 ; sloops, 34 ; brigs, 3! ; armed steamers, had been larger than for ten years previous, though it 32 oth er . , vessels, 10. What was the answer the Go- was true they had not maintained the same number of vernment returned in the other House of Parliament ships in commission. Yet this country would be enabled w hen asked why there was not a greater naval force in in a short period, and with the consent of that House, the Mediterrenean, there being four French ships of the to make a naval demonstration worthy of its great fame l ine and frigates capable of containing 12,000 men as a naval power. They had voted 33,000 seamen and there ? Th Earl of Haddingtou replied that unfor- marines. When the naval estimates were under consi !ately a concentration of naval force was required on deration, the Gallant Commodore opposite said that t he coast of Ireland. He did not contend with the Earl though there was a number of ships in commission in of Raddington who had been transferred from the care the Mediterranean, they were not properly manned. He of th e Orange flag to that of the Union-Jack. He did said this to shew that the number of ships in commis slc•t complain of Lord Haddington's desire to keep a sion was not a proper estimate of naval strength. strong force Policy which perverted the affections of a people who, in commission, well manned and appointed, and yet llieler different treatment, would be a bulwark of strength they might be more strong in naval power if they had ; i n stead of a source of weakness.—(Hear.) He would say had more ships, but not so effectually manned. The Right ~( )t hing against the French, who were a noble, high- Hon. Gentleman called for an account of the fleet: he minded people ; nor against that Minister of France, hoped no Hon. Member would second him on such a , lo was even pre-eminent among those gifted men by motion. He had now stated all that he considered it ne ? orn he was surrounded, not only for his great genius, cessary to say with respect to the motion of the Right Intelligence, thought, and writings, but for honour and Hon. Gentleman. He had attempted to show, that if, in h onesty, —(H ear , hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman 1841, they acquiesced in the continued occupation of then vindicated the conduct of L o rd Palmerston, who, it Algiers by France, theyhad acquiesced in consequence of ic w as said, had compromised the interests of England. the course of society, and in consequence of the preced e Was happy to witness so much profession of diplomatic ing acquiescence of their predecessors, which he did not e ndearm en t, but he could not discover that anything blame; but, in giving that acquiescence, it Material had been gained. On the contrary, it would was expected that France would state that a PPear that th e right of search, which had been once it would not extend its conquests to Tunis or Morocco. eoincoded by M. Guizot to this country, had been recently That declaration had been made. The Noble Lord must w ithheld thheld ; fur had not British influence been lost in recollect that this question of Algiers had been discussed t 9Fain ?—had die Escurial become an appurtenance of when he was Foreign Secretary; and if he (Sir R. Peel) e Tuileries ?—(Hear, hear)—and in barbarious appeared rather backward in giving information on this "'cites had not the power of England been reduced to subject, it must be remembered that he was only fol the," vani s hi ng point. ?"—(Hear, hear.) He had done. lowi ng th e exam pl e th a t h a d b een se t hi m by th e N o bl e T he,._ Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for a Lord. He was of opinion that it would be inconsistent Turn, showing the amount of British ships in the Me- with the duty of a Minister to give up any t corre rerranean in July, 1844, and also that the new scale of spondence that had taken place between this Govern ales imposed on En g li s h s hippi ng a nd English man u - !pent and that of Morocco on this subject. He trusted, c'efurt s in Algiers be laid on the table of the House. upon consideration, that the Hon. Gentleman would Sir C. NAPIER seconded the motion. allow the motion to be negatived. If he (Sir R. Peel) s erve upon the expressions of regret of the Right had spoken with reserve on this question, he hoped the Sir R. PEEL commence d b y sa ing that he would not House would consider the difficulties in which he was It °ln Gentleman, who said he felt himself compelled by placed. He had been anxious to avoid the expression of any opinion which might tend to diminish the autho- NQ did of duty to brine forward the present motion. rity of this country to maintain an honourable peace. Gentleman did not think it was at all prudent in the Right Hon. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that so far as his own „entleman to brint , forward the motion at a time when views and intentions were concerned, he should not have ' e u.P 7 were sluing *all could to resent any hostile made any motion on this subject, and considering the might between France and Moroc P co—anything which - "ght be injurious to the integrity of Morocco, or com- present state of affairs with respect to France and Mo- Protnise the political or commercial interests of the rocco, he would have waited before he asked for further ti cmn try. He must say that the discussions in this and information from the Government. He thought, how ever, that as his Right Hon. and Learned Friend had t , e , Other Ilouse of Parliament had, by exciting the im- judged it expedient to make the motion, it was but jus ,e,'lngs of the people of the two countries, greatly red the efforts of the Governments of France and rice in him to state that nothing could be more tempe rate than the motion, and nothing more guarded than , n gland.—(Hear, hear.) He would not of course im the language that had been employed. He thought the pa te to the Right Honourable Gentleman any desire to Right Hon. Gentleman had misunderstood his Right ct ir up those feelings of enmity, or embitter animo- Hon. Friend on this subject. His Right Hon. Friend Gentlemanle'• He must of course acquit the Right Honourable had made a statement with regard to what took place in c.. but he must say that no course was more 1830 as to the occupation of Algiers, but the Right Hon. calculated to promote those evils than that which the Gentleman said now, was it intended, that having been 14!g h t Hon. Gentleman pursued.—(Hear, hear.) The letht Hon. Baronet then alluded to the terms of the out of office since 1841, they should now insist ° J e l ginal motion, which he supposed the Right Hon. upon the evacuation of Algiers ? The Right Honourable Gentleman was an able debater when he bad to deal a P•ttemen had changed in consequence of his (Sir with substantial:arguments, but, singular to say, when ''''..) mert Peel's) observations, on Friday night, he had to deal with shadows he em . Plc greater force sT s the extraerdinary nature of that motion. The Right ' un Gentleman had moved for a Select Committee to than with substantial arguments. I.hey d had F never Inquirecome under what circumstances the French had be- thought respect it dteosirtabbele possession s e m s make of Algiers. onrb They a i t , t a c c 7 French conquest of Algiers, and how far the extensian of " u w pon on or more occasions asked for explanations with Th is country withthe this of . Why, what would . said regard to Tunis and Morocco ; and assurances on that .• Select Conamittees were appointed in the French . ,cambers subject had been assure which were considered satisfac v. .nber s to inquire how far our conquests in Hong tory, and those nces had been renewed. Under i rng were consistent with French interests.—(Hear, those circumstances he should not have felt called upon ti 'ar.) The Right Hon. Gentleman then explained the to ask for any further information on the subject. a ttire of the communications which had taken place b etween Lord Stuart de Rothesay and the Prince de He thought that the demands made by France - !elignac on the inv as i on o f Al g i ers b y t h e F renc h un d er on the Government of Morocco were but Charles the Tenth, in whi c h t h e P r i nce gave full assur- fair. They involved, however, several most im aneer t., the En g lish Mi n i ster , a f ter t h e success of the p or t a nt questions ; and if those d eman d s were n F ot en t e he h arms there, th a t acqu i s i t i on of territory was no t complied with, then came the question, h ow th e war object of French invasion, but redress for an was to be carried on ? Considering the complexion injury, and there was every reason to place the fullest c affairs had taken, he was not disposed to press th e Go redit on th a t assurance. In July, 1830, the Bourbons, v ernment as to their policy on this subject. There was Party in France that had a blind partiality . . to war, not and the Conservative out of office a few Government which went hope of keeping up the dignity and honour of cognised the Government s 7r l o 3 m ar any of after at once re- France, but merely from a love of war itself. The pre- L'ouis Phillippe. A new dynasty was placed on the Throne with the good- sent Government of France had manfully opposed itself will of the French people. The continental Powers were to that desire among its own people, and such being the ' Wavering as to the course which they should pursue • case, he (Lord J. Russell) would be the less disposed to and this country Sevin.. that the will of the French press upon the Government the making of statements P.eople was unequivocally expressed as to the change of that mi g ht be g ratin g to the French p eo p le. While he dYnasty, g ave an example to the continental Powers, and would not press the Government to give any answer recognised the change which took place. The Right with respect to questions on which they might be en • Gentleman would advise them to take that oppor- waged in diplomatic negotiations with France, yet he tu . n i ' Y of obtai ing•satislictory explanations from France 'thought the Government were not justified in the line with, regard to etigiers. Communications had passed on they had taken with respect to naval defence. It was a very Inset subject between the British and French Govern- different thing to say that the House of Commons should Mtnts after that event. Lord Aberdeen moved for the interfere to control the negotiations with foreign powers, correspondence in the House of Lords in 1832, when and to say in what manner the supplies that had been i, t, L ord_ G rey was at the head of the Government, but, at cheerfully voted had been applied by the Minister of the Crown. The Right Hon. Gentleman had upon this oc tr request of Lord Grey he withdrew his motion, On 1 7 15th of November, 1830, Lord Grey came into office casion renewed his protest against being asked concerning w it _h both the Noble Lords whom he saw opposite. They the naval force of this country. Why such questions were consonant with precedent. In the times of Chat at in possession of power for eleven years ; they had ham and of Pitt they were constantly put, and the late „ the facts before them ; and yet they acquiesced in Government was constantly exposed to such questions. (l_military occupation of Algiers by the French.— Some time since, he (Lord John Russell) stated that he 4 ear, hear.) No remonstrance was made against that thought it much better to have a sufficient force ready i r eu Patien. They stated that "if the conquests of the than to send one out in cases of emergency, and upon it each in Africa were limited to the territory of Algiers; that occasion he was met by a joke from the Right Hon. n l w(4 dd not endanger the harmony and good understand. Baronet. Was it to be said that the House was to grant 1 1 , g which existed between the British and French Go money, and they were not to ask how it was spent ? G e . r hments." He did not mean to blame the late For himself he was one that would not con k for that, seeing how desirable it was sent to such a doctrine. Now, what was the l ir , maintain the government of Louis Phi ril'' in France, and that the demand for state of the navy of this country in 1838, and at the present day? in'lB3B, there were eighteen Otte9tilling the engagements of Mons. Polignac would ex line-of-battle ships, while in 'July,lB44, there were only lu irritable feelings on the part of the French people. nine. In 1838 there were twenty-nine frigates, when at s e t did not the acquiescence in the possession of Algiers the present time there were thirty-two. The total num -4" the French, for eleven years, make the greatest diffe ber of line-of-battle ships in 1838 was one hundred and ee -t ,! e " in that question.—( Hear, hear.) And the late Go thirty-eight, now there were only thirty-six. If it was po .ll tnent had notice of the intention of France to keep found that ships should all have their regular comple h s sesso n of Algeria ; for, in answer to a question put i e Marshal Clausel to Marshal Soult, in 1833, in the meat of men, was it not, he would ask, equally right that they should have a sufficient number of "ships? That G4-eneli Charnbere, Marshal Soult said that the French might increase the estimates, but that could not be e i: v erntnent were in favour of the colonisation of Alge helped. In 1838 there were seven line-of-battle ships in gi• ; that up to the present moment they had not the w'bghtest intention of evacuating Algeria, and that the the Mediterranean. In 1841, seventeen. In 1844, one, and at the present moment there were only two line-of pi'a°le course of their conduct showed that they contem batle ships in the Mediterranean. So that, at the pre tiottkecl its permanent occupation, and that they had sent moment, they had only two line-of-battle ships at di - s ,"mg to fear from any one who might meditate their e ,lurbance. The British Government were, therefore, their disposal. Now he would put it to any Hon. Mem ber whether that was sufficient for every emergency ?In ! e r e Of the intentions of France as to the retention of 1838 his Hon. Friend, the Member for Halifax, in pro it. g e n ria, and yet they made no remonstrance against posing the estimates for 1839, thought right to go at 1 1 ,zut, considering the position of Louis Philippe, considerable length into the subject, in t o rder to show tad not think the Government of Earl Grey or Lord that there was a sufficient force at that time. . parson had acted unwisely in agreeing in the occu- His opinion was opposed by several Hon. Members, who te s ";" of Algeria. They made no remonstrance, and denied that the force was then sufficient. If it was not e ll . "'" Consul now, as formerly continued, to act under so then, what, he would ask, was the state of things at te r . e xequat ur . The Right Hon. Gentleman then re the present moment ? The present was a Parliamentary eosin `e to an ordinance of the 16th December last, im irnr,4 a. duty on the introduction of British goods, and question, and one which it competent to Members who had voted money w away to bring forward. an d discriminating duties with regard to British The complaint was not that the Government had not most,Fre ships. This ordinance was not directed a laritieh ships in particular, but against those of taken a sufficient sum as an estimate for the naval force, th a t her nations ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman said but the people having this burden to bear, having these taxes to pay, ventured to ask if, in return, they had a te tr , t nn important thing was the principle of the ordi-naval power sufficient to meet any emergency. There fo re e e• But he would prove that was decided long be. were other questions he might ask with respect to the kr naval estimates, but he should be told perhaps that the Sir • SHEIL—In 1835. re en _,IZOBERT PEEL—Yes, the Right Hon. Gentle- most proper time to do so was at the time they were proposed. They had perhaps granted them with too ap e °id nut allude to the ordinance of 1835 in his ee little inquiry, but when they came before the House Ai r. SHEIL—They are two distinct facts. again they might perhaps have some questions to ask Of Sir 1 8 :, R OBERT PEEL said he admitted the ordinance as to what wasbest to be done with respect to the building of new ships. It would perhaps be necessary to ask what th e „', 3 Was more important, but as to its wording and large ships were ready to be brought forward, or ready to of 11 . 'neiple involved, it was the same as the ordinance Pow~ 3 . He deeply regretted the exercise of this be launched.—(Hear, hear.) He should be very glad if ', 5 the Secretary of the Admiralty would be able to give a 11 to the °Y the French, 0 Fr enc h G over nment.—(Hear.)arid that re yet Then theet had been siified Right satisfactory answer to this question ; but he had heard k . 'Gentl eman pa id a grea t com pli men t t o the statements which led him to doubt very much whether ,).- Rae ,of the French and the French people ; he would be able to do so. But with respect to the question before the House, it was totally distinct from Wo uld "," said he was afraid the same course that of foreign negotiations ; at the same time, he be- Pa ss „_,°e Pursued with regard to Morocco which was lieved that the objection stated by the Right Hon. Ba nll "" 1 with respect to Algiers. The Right Hon. Gen eql, , roost was well founded—that although there might not H Q ' had a great advantage over him in this respect. fs,,, e ,' ) _uld not speak his opinions with that latitude and be any . positive danger, perhaps hardly any inconve km " 41 which he could indulge in with regard to inter- nience in granting the information called for, yet it ereekP°lities for after the experience of the last six mi g ht be made a bad precedent at another time, when voki n he found that he could not do so without pro- it m i g ht be desirable not to give on authority a state- Jeetiug of the destination of any particular force. That That e ler . e .g the F rench Government to taunts that they feelin gs amongst t h e F renc h peop l e , an d su b- were objection, therefore, applying to any Government, and ketit insti uments in the hands of the British Govern- any House of Commons, would, he hoped, have weight with his Right Hon. Friend, and that he would not press Itight and subjecting them to such accusations as the Qes eet e" 4 " l l. Gentleman had directed towards the British for the production of the information. But he must say elas ar nm ent•—(Hear, hear.) But they had public de- that, with regard to negotiations, he should not be at all of Lo 1 " , made in the face of Europe, and if they were influenced by any clamours that might be raised as to nate, ".'ad — if there ,vas no respect for national h ad battes would have ` very little effect. Declarations In England the Government were charged with neg vet. ee n made in the face of Europe by the French Go n e e ses itisil 7 similar to what had been notified to the the French Government was subjected to the same Pro, 2 ,„Pnvernme n t, that the French had no desire to charge. He should be disposed to pay but little atten to vu to maintainhostilities—that they were most anxious , tion to these statements, nor would they be sufficient to or eo . ct i p , peace, and had no national cause of war ' .induce him to take any step to interfere with negotia tilen. 'l 4ll sit Moroeco. He saw by the Right h ' h bpending. But • b tons t at mig t e with regard to the As ter lt_Gentleman that he distrusted these statements. position of the country generally, he did think that suffi t4 icin v elaborate compliments which he had paid to I cient attention had not been paid to the state of the not th iti of the Fren c h an d t o th e F renc h peop l e, he did 1 navy.—(" Hear, hear," from Sir C. Napier.) He thought Ri g h t 4' no Ought t o sneer a t th ose d ec l arat i ons. The ! there had been a culpable neglect, and he should wish a alon• Gentleman seemed desirous of maintaining i sufficient force maintained to support the dignity of the nation, and to avenge any insult. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, ;ILLY" 23, 1844. , Mr. M. MILNES said he was glad that the Noble Lord did not view with any great apprehension the pre sent state of affairs in Morocco. Lord J. RUSSELL said what he stated was, that he was not without apprehension. Mr. M. MILNES—He did understand the Noble Lord to say that he did not regard with any immediate fear the present state of the relations between France and Morocco ; he, therefore, thought that he had rested rather too strongly on what he thought the culpability of her Majesty's Government as to the amount of the naval force. The Noble Lord appeared somewhat too anxious to have the navy put upon a war footing, but he (Mr. Manes) believed that whatever might be the aspect of affairs at present, the Noble Secretary of State for Fo reign affairs would be so far equal to his predecessor in the art of " protocolising," as to be able to defer that unfortunate event for a considerable period. He con fessed he had seen the notice of the present motion with great pain, because he thought its purpose might be mis understood. It should be remembered that there was a considerable war party in France, and it was necessary for this country to act with some caution, so as not to excite that party, and thus increase the difficulties of the French Government. He referred to the occupation of Algeria by the French, and stated his convic tion that it entailed a great loss on the French people. With regard to the present operations, though he should be the last to treat with disregard the sovereign virtues, and the religious en thusiasm of the native population, yet he felt that the time was come when they must receive the advantages of civilization, even if they should obtain it at the hard price of war. He thought that it was impossible that the whole of the African coast, bordering on the Medi terranean, could any longer be abandoned to these hordes of barbarians. He hoped, however, that the Right Hon. Baronet would see that the best course he could adopt would be to withdraw the motion. And in doing so it would be well if he would reiterate to the House in the strongest terms his assertion that he had not brought it forward from any hostile feeling towards France but from anxiety for th e h onour o f th is coun try, combined with a spirit of good-will towards our great and generous neighbour. Mr. HUME said he was at first afraid that the Liberal party on that side of the House were about to play the game that had been pursued on former occasions, of urging the Government into hostilities, but he was glad to hear from the Right Hon. Gentlemen that his motion was not so intended. It appeared to him that the motion, as taken up by the Right Hon. Baronet, involved two questions : first, how much they were to expend on their naval force, and, secondly, how far the House was to interfere in negotiations with respect to the first question, about which the Right Hon. Baronet felt rather toe sensitive. He thought the more the Parliament knew about the des tination and disposal of the navy the better. He thought the Right Hon. Baronet deserved the thanks of the country for the reductions he had made, and wisely made, in the naval establishment. There was a power ful war party in France, and a very mischievous one. Every act of the English Government was turned by that party to the purposes of excitement. And what was more likely to create that spirit than unnecessary arma ment on the part of England? He was always for keep ing up a proper force ; but there was this consideration, that when England armed, all the rest of the world armed also—when England increased her fleet, France in creased her's also. They would not believe that Eng land did it in mere self-defence, but would attribute it to some aggressive motive. With respect to the motion for a Committee, he would ask how this country would have regarded a Committee of the French Chamber, appointed to inquire into our right to occupy Sinde or the island of Hong-Kong ?—(Hear, hear.) He thought England had been too sensitive, and too much disposed to intermeddle in the affairs of other nations. He be lieved the Goverment of France felt the danger of en tering upon a war, and with the declaration it had made that it had no intention of encroaching upon the domi nions of Morocco he thought they ought to be satisfied. He was glad to understand that it was not the intention of the motion to increase the feeling in favour of a war; and that, beyond the necessity of keeping up a sufficient force to maintain the dignity of the country, the Hon. and Learned Member was not desirous of going. Mr. MACKINNON said, as he did not wish to detain the House from going into Committee, he should ad dress to it a very few words, and those would refer chiefly to the occupation of Algiers by the French. In this country, even if there were a feeling in favour of a war, he believed that feeling would be kept down by the force of the Government. But in France that was not the case. There there was an immense population, a large mase of whom had everything to gain and nothing to lose ;by engaging in a war, and who were ready to rush into one at any time, and for any reason. Under these circumstances, he considered the occupation of Al giers by the French as a good thing for this country. It acted as a safety valve, which carried off the more unquiet spirits of France. It served as an outlet for the discontented portion of the troops of France, which were exchanged for others more inclined to support the Government. France was in that position in which she must have external war or internal discontent. Under these circumstances, he believed that the occupation of Algiers was of the greatest advantage to the a hole of Europe. Sir C. NAPIER could not agree with the Hon. Gentleman that the occupation of Algiers by France would be beneficial to this country. He thought the occupation had, and was likely still further to lead, to disadvantageous results to this country. France had repeatedly declared that it was not her intention to occupy Algiers, but merely to punish the Dey for having offered an insult to France. This promise, although often repeated, the Government of this country had never demanded should be reduced to writing. We ought never to have permitted France to take pos session of Algiers, far less Morocco, which was of ten thousand times more importance to us. Perhaps at the very moment at which he was speaking the Prince de Joinville was bombarding Tangiers. He thought, therefore, that they had a right to call upon the Govern ment to take steps for the protection of British interests. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government always became very sensitive when allusion was made to the state of the navy. The present state of the navy had not been equalled for ten or fifteen years past. He remembered in the year 1839 the then Government being attacked in consequence of the navy being in an ineffi cient state. The attack was commenced by Lord Col chester, and seconded by Lord Ilardwick. Now what was the state of the navy in 1839 ? We had then 34,165 seamen, boys, and marines, and 21 sail of the line. What did Lord Melville, who was a very good authority, then say ? He certainly did not join in the attack on the Government, but he pointed out the necessity of keeping up a large peace establishment—much larger than we were accustomed to do in consequence of the extensive use of steam power, which, to a certain extent, had destroyed our coast ing trade, and thereby rendered it more difficult to obtain seamen for the navy. The Duke of Wellington on that occasion said, "Here we have warm America, and war in Asia, with an establishment that is not even ade quate for the wants of peace." The Right Hon. Baronet himself said that it was impossible to see the exertions which were being made by France and Russia without apprehension • it was impossible to exclude those mari time Powers from the consideration of the House. He (Sir Charles Napier) would quote one other passage from the Right Hon. Baronet's speech, which was a strange contrast with the opinions which he held now. The Right Hon. Gentleman said " that if it was then ne cessary to have eleven sail of the line in the Mediterra nean, and two ships at Lisbon, all he could say was that seven sail of the line was very inadequate to protect the coasts of this country." Yet the language of the Right Hon. Gentleman was very different now. In 1841 there were twenty-six sail of the line, with a naval estimate for 43,000 men. In 1843 the Right Honourable Baronet reduced the naval force to 39,000 men, and the fleet in the Mediterranean to six or seven ships. In 1844, the force was further reduced to 36,000 men ; and that was what it remained at the pre sent moment. The Right Hon. Gentleman said it was not men at all, but ships that constituted the nary. Why, the Right Hon. Gentleman might just as well say that fine barracks constituted an army. He depre cated the system of manning ships with marines, as had been done lately with respect to the Caledonia. He asked, whether it was a fit state for the navy to be in, when they found a ninety-two gun ship sent out with 750 men, which was only the complement of an eighty four gun ship ? There was but one line-of-battle ship to guard the coasts of this country, and that was the Queen, which was fitting at Plymouth. It had taken this ship three months to fit—she being at present fitting for a flag ship. It had been said that we could fit[out a fleet in six months. Now, in answer to this, he would just refer to what had taken place in 1840, when it was found to be of the utmost importance to get a fleet ready of the Mediterranean. The Vanguard was commis sioned in February, and that ship did not arrive in the Mediterranean until the middle of November. The Calcutta was fitted out at the same time, but did not arrive until December, and the remaining ships in tended for the station never arrived at all. Now, he would ask, whether they could confide in the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet, when he said he could do what no other Government had yet been able to accom plish—viz., fit out a fleet in six months? The French at the present moment had eight sail of the line in corn mision in- the Mediterranean—they had also ships which were called commission de rode. These ships were well officered and manned. The French, too, had fifty-three sail of the line on the stocks, which was just as good as their being in the water. He had always held, and he held it still, that the system of commissioning and pay ing our ships off was neither wise, politic, nor economi cal. The expense of commissioning a ship and paying her off was very great. A ship was commissioned for a short time, as occasion might require, and when the necessity had passed away, she was immediately paid off, and she re mained in ordinary until another occasion arose, when they were obliged to go through the same course over again. Now, under such a system as this, how was it possible for young officers—our lieutenants and mates— in the navy to learn anything of seamanship ? They could not do it unless they were kept constantly at sea. One ship had lately returned from the Mediterranean, where she had been for three years, having been stationed at Malta during that time. Now could the officers on board such a ship as that learn anything of seamanship ? As far as the gunnery went no doubt they excelled, but of seaman ship they knew very little. The Board of Admiralty had lately built six experimental brigs. He had hoped to see those brigs sent out in which young officers had been placed, in order to acquire some experience in their profession. This, however, had not been the case. He hoped and trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet, who seemed to be a good deal influenced by obstinacy— (Laughter)—would yet honestly come to Parliament and ask for more men for the navy. Lord INGESTRE could not agree with the Hon. Member for Montrose in saying that it was essential that our establishment should be reduced to the least possible standard, for if they were to do so they would abolish the school in which our officers and seamen at tained their experience. When the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman who spoke last alluded to the attack which was made upon the Government in 1839, he must have forgotten that at that time great fears were entertained of a Turkish war. The ships were now fully and efficiently manned, but a very different state of things prevailed in 1838. He maintained that the change in this respect was one of great importance - to the honour and interest of this country. Complaints were made in 1838 of the want of ships at home. It was of the greatest importance that we should be ready for every exigency, and that the officers and seamen should be kept in a proper state of discipline by cruising in the Channel. One reason why he had always maintained that ships should be suffi ciently manned was, that in case of necessity the men might be made into two companies, and the deficiency supplied by landsmen. Sir G. COCKBURN said he was of opinion that they should always keep up the number of officers and sea men, but, at the same time, it was usual to lower the armaments in time of peace, and it was for the Cabinet to decide, upon a calculation of the chances of war, whe the it was necessary to have a large fleet, or only a small one.—(Hear.) Every officer in the navy stated that the greatest inconvenience arose from having the ships undermanned. He had always thought that it was better to have one ship efficiently manned than two imperfectly.—(Hear, hear.) With reference to the observations of the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, he must say that although the force was not a large one, it was respectable, and, as he had already said, it was for the Cabinet to judge whether there was any chance of war or not, and to act accordingly. The Gallant Commodore had referred to the sending out of marines in the Caledonia. The marines having been used to the great guns were quite as competent to man them as the seamen, and therefore they had taken 150 of each. All their ships now carried very much heavier guns than they did formerly, and it was very necessary that they should be efficiently manned. With very few exceptions the reports made to the Admiralty :in reference to the ships which had re turned home, were perfectly satisfactory. They had taken the engines out of the larger steam-vessels, and put them into smaller o nes , w hil e f or th e f ormer larger engines had been provided. The Gallant Officer com plained of the want of experience on. the part of the lieu tenants of the navy. Why, almost every captain, on re turning home, told the Admiralty that there had never been such good officers.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir George Cockburn) firmly believed that both ships and officers were in good condition. They had a very considerable force on every station, although, as they had the interest of the British merchant to look to in every part of the world, their force was much subdivided. It was true that France had fifteen sail of the line in the Mediterranean, but England had more ships ready for sea than France had both on the stocks and at sea. With regard to the long time which it took to man vessels, he begged to ob serve that the officers were very careful in their selection of seamen, refusing as many as they received, in order to secure an efficient force. He believed that if they had a war with France, or any other maritime power, they had quite force enough for that purpose. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL was exceedingly surprised at the manner in which the Right Hon Gentleman had treated the remarks of his Right Hon. Friend. Nothing could be more natural than that having been connected with the late Government, as he had been, he should take an interest in such a question..—(Hear, hear.) The year 1838 had been particularly referred to, and he begged to refer to the opinion, of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) expressed at that time. The Right Hon. Gentleman complained at that time that there was but one brig in the vicinity of the French fleet at the time when it was in 'the neighbourhood of Mexico. Four ships were on their way at that very time, and they were only detained by adverse winds, over which the Government had no control. A state of things now existed as regarded. the Mediterranean which was very similar to that in question.—(Hear, hear.) The Gallant Officer who had just addressed the House had compared the complement of men in 1838. Hewes prepared to show that the war complement fixed by the present Board of Admiralty was less that that fixed by the late one. Take the example of two ships, the Collingwood of 80 and the Rodney of 92. What was the number of men fixed by the present regulations for those two ships? Why precisely the same under the late Admiralty for ships of 80 and of 92 guns-759 men. He denied that the larger class e ships were so well manned now as they were under - the late Government. After all the results were the things to be looked at. Now, he would first state to the Rouse what were the complaints of men in some of the great naval actions. In Lord St. Vincent's action there were five 74-gun ships, with an average of 575 men. In Lord Duncan's action, the average was 554 to every 74. In the action at Trafal gar, Lord Nelson had sixteen third-rates, with an average of 563 men each. Now a great deal had been said of the wretched way in which the Mediterranean fleet had been manned under the late Government, and yet it appeared from the. returns that, in 1840, the the third-rates in the Mediterranean averaged 628 men each, while French ships of the same class had only 598 men. Now he would ask if the calumnies which had been uttered against the late Admiralty were fair or just? Another accusation which had been brought against the late Government was that they did not keep up a suffi cient force at home. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that seven sail of the line was too small a force to de fend our own ports; yet at present there was no flag ship at Sheerness.—(Hear, hear.) It was stated, in the debate of 1839, that Sheerness might be burned, and the Admi ralty aroused from their slumbers by the appearance of a hostile fleet on our coast—that our liberties and our exis tence were in danger. It fact it was almost impossible to over state all the nonsense that was uttered upon the subject, and he trusted that no Opposition would hereafter be guilty of conduct so disgraceful. Be had no hesitation in saying that he apprehended no more danger to Sheerness, from there being no flag-ship there, than he should be for the old palace of St. James's if the cap tain's guard were withdrawn. It had been an old cus tom to maintain a flag-ship at our naval arsenals, and a captain's guard at our palaces—not that any danger was apprehended ; but what opinion would they enter tain of a Commander-in -Chief if he had so reduced:our forces as not to be able to afford a captain's guard to her Majesty's palaces, or a sentinel at the dock-yard gates? Yet that was what the Ministry had done at the present moment, when it was apparent from the cautious manner of the Right Hon. Gentleman that our foreign relations were not so satisfactory as could have been wished. The late Government had also been charged with neglecting the building of ships. If the present Government had thought the statements they made when out of office correct, why did they not remedy the error when they came into office ? Almost the first thing they did was to reduce the estimates. The late Ministry left twenty-six sail of the line at sea, and all the yards at full work. A programme was laid down, by which each shipwright was required to produce a certain quantity of work in the year. In that year it had been calculated that eight steamers would be built. Three had been launched, two were ready for launching, and three were on the stocks, and would have been launched during the course of the financial year. They had taken a large vote for steam, and the present tiovernment had diverted 10,000/. of it to another object—the pioviding, means to extinguish fires in dock-yards, which might have been provided for by a separate vote in the following year. There was a deficiency of two-deckers in the navy, and down,p but the Gallant Officer opposite set a three-decker up, which was pulledn one t w ha a dn thatt been ed,oan ne s d e t n u o now, at the end of three years that three-decker was not more advanced than the two-decker was when it was pulled down. The Gallant Officer said that they had produced fifteen steamers, and he recol lected among them a frigate, which had been converted into a steamer, an experiment which had failed; in fact, the Gallant Officer wished to turn everything into the system of thirty years ago. A great deal had been said on the subject of their employing pensioners on board ship. At the present moment there were &Ora twenty to thirty decrepid old pensiOners on board' the St. Vincent. Mr. S. HERBERT—No, no. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL was glad to hear it. All he could say was that he. had his informa tion from a gentleman, who stated that he had con versed with one of these decrepid oid men, who had stated to his informant that he had been at sea 40 years. He hoped he had not offended any foreign power by his observations. It was not necessary to make any boast of our force; there was no boast so powerful as telling the truth. He had observed with surprise an article on this subject in a Government newspaper, which could not have proceeded from the pen of a newspaper editor, and which, he hoped, had not proceeded from that of a Government official, giving a list of ships. Now, surely it was not necessary, in order to make a show, to put in our list the names of sheer hulks, and vessels avowedly useless. Our real force was about 56 sail of the line , which could be g o t rea dy f or sea force e in five or six othermonths t two o most countries. at B u t hi s H on. an d ; and that was d ou bl e Gallant Friend asked what was the use of ships, if we had had not men? Under the late Government the Perseus was moored off the Tower for the purpose of re ceiving men, but the present Board of Admiralty had entirely got rid of her.—(Marks of dissent from Sir George Cockburn.) He was very glad to find such was not the case. There was a Bill before the House for the registration of seamen—a most useful measure, although he feared its provisions were too complicated. He should like to see sailors homes in all our great ports under the protection of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) Every sailor was liable to impressment, and consequently had a claim upon the public ; and if they provided him with a home in every part when he was ashore, they would be conferring a great benefit upon him, and doing that which might be of great advantage to the naval service of the country. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said the circumstances were different in 1839 from what they wero at present. We were then at the commencement of those diff'erences which led to the Syrian war ; and th e argument of his Right Hon. Friend had beefs-that if it were necessary to keep up such a large fleet in the Mediterranean, it was also necessary to keep up a proper force at home. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the manning of the Col lingwood. Now he could state, on the authority of the captain of the Collingwood, that his difficulty was not in procuring, but in selecting men. The Noble Lord, the Member for London, had asked him about the ships building. Now, during the two years in which they had been in office, they had put thirty ships of the line in a state of efficiency. Sir C. NAPlER—That's not ship-building. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT—No ; but it was equiva lent to building new ships. With regard to the state ment of the Hon. Gentleman as to the state of our steam navy, he would observe that when the present Ministry came into power the steam navy consisted of 14,000 horse power, and it now consisted of 28,000 horse power. They had also increased the number of 50-gun frigates. Among other improvements which the present Govern ment had introduced, was the making a marine corps of artillery.—(Cheers.) The men of this corps were effec tive and vigorous men, and were in addition to the usual complement of marines allowed to each ship. The flag ships were sent out every year fully manned. The lion. Gentleman had said that, according to the plan of the last Government, none of these ships ought to sail with out a complement of 800 men. Now he could under take to say, that no ship under the late Government had ever sailed with that full complement, and it did not signify what she ought to have had, but what she actually had. The present Government had increased the actual complement. There were three ships more in commission, and 2,000 men more employed, than in 1839. He thought the motion unnecessary, and should oppose it. Captain PECHELL exclaimed against the mode of building war-ships—the present war steamers were awkward and unmanageable, and the most efficient of them had been employed in Ireland collecting poor rates. Mr. ROSS said a few words ; after which, Lord PALMERSTON said the House was much in debted to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the motion he had made. He did not think, after all, that it was open to the objections which the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Governmen had made against it. In fact, the Right Hon. Baronet in the commencement of his speech confined his critical observations not to the mo tion which had been made, but to the motion which had not been made. The motion of which his Right Hon. Friend had given notice had not even been put on the books. Ile was willing to admit that the present motion was preferable to the former ; but he did not think the former motion deserved the censure the Right Hon. Baronet had cast upon it. The Right Hon. Gen tleman said it was a motion to inquire into the manner in which the French became possessed of Algiers, and added, that a motion in the French Chambers to inquire how the British became possessed of Hong-Kong would be a legitimate course. Now, he (Lord Palmerston) thought there would be the greatest possible difference b etweenthose two motions. It s h ou ld b e reco ll ecte d , t h at if a motion were made to inquire into the mode in which the French became possessed of Algiers, it would be for the purpose of ascertaining the conduct, not of the French, but of the English Government. No such grounds existed with respect to Hong-Kong, and, there fore, Zhe held the cases to be entirely different. His Right Hon. Friend had been found fault with by some for starting a question of such a delicate nature as this while negotiations were still going on between England and France; and it was said by the Hon. Member for Lymington, that, considering there was a party in France who were anxious for war with England, who were likely to overpower the Government of France, and compel that country to go into a war with England. That being the case, it was very inexpedient in that House to discuss our foreign interests, or to inquire whether our naval establish ment was in a position to meet any sudden emergency. He (Lord Palmerston) utterly denied the force of that argument, and on the contrary, if such an argument were propounded on the fact of the existence of such a party in any other country, that argument would rather lead to the opposite conclusion than that which had been drawn from it; for, assuming that in France or any other country, there was a party likely to overpower the Government of that country, and to compel that country to commence war with England —so far from that being a reason for this country being silent on the subject, he thought it was a reason for additional vigilance on the part of the Government in securing the means of meeting such an emergency. He discarded from him the considera tion of such acircumstance. He thought that House ought not to permit itself to be debarred from looking to the interests of this country, whether those interests con sisted of foreign commercial relations, or the means of military defence, by any consideration as to the feelings of persons in any foreign country. He hoped they would always abstain from unnecessarily wounding the feelings of any party or any country, or unnecessarily producing irritation in our own; but he held that the interest of England ought to be a paramount consideration; and it was not becoming in that House to be deterred from entering into the consideration of the conduct of a Government by speculations as to how it might agree with the feelings of this or that Govern ment, or the opinions of this or that party in any coun try. His (Lord Palmerston's) Right Hon. Friend had taken a course which was perfectly legitimate. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite chose to assume that his Right Hon. Friend had argued that the present Go vernment or the late Government ought to have called upon France to evacuate Algiers. His Right Hon. Friend had used no such argument. His argument was, that looking at the negociations which had taken place in 1830 between the British Government and the Go vernment of France, with respect to Algiers, looking to those negotiations, tke Government of that day had not properly performed their duty in getting security from the Government of France; and, therefore, confidence could not be placed in the energy and the vigilance of the Government with regard to those negotiations. He thought that argument a perfectly fair one, and if any body would take the trouble of reading those papers which were laid before Parliament in the year 1839, which were very short on the negotiations respecting Algiers ; they would see that this country had failed entirely in extracting from the Government of France those engagements which were important to be obtained. He thought they had a right to require from the Government of France engagements, formal, of f icial, written engagements that, in the event of the overthrow of the Regency of Algiers, the French should not obtain any permanent internal advantages or aggrandisements in Africa. As surances were given verbally, and everybody knew that verbal assurances went for nothing, and were binding upon nobody but the man that made them. The Go vernment of this country pressed the Government of France to give written assurances, and that Government wrote a dispatch to their Ambassador here, in which they stated that, in the event of success, they would make their views subservient to the wishes of their allies with regard to the arrangement of the affairs of the ex isting Regency. The Government of this country still pressed for written and specific declarations, but nothing more re e received d s a iflreodm without the any Governmentsp;fic and of written France, declarationeftcni dfi specific was the as expedition being made. That expedition was successful, and upon hearing of this, what did our Am bassador at Paris do ? On hearing of the success of the expedition, he waited on Prince Polignac, and sl congratulated him upon the event, and expressed a hope that now they had succeeded in their expedition they would not fly from those as surances which they had given before the expedition sailed. Was that the language which ought to have been used by our Ambassador ? Prince Polignac assured them that France had no inclination to depart from her promises. If proper negotiations had been entered into before the expedition sailed this would not have been the language used by either party. It might be said that the Government of that day were actuated by a desire to keep in office the Ministry of Prince Polignac, and by a desire to do something useful to the dynasty then reigning. But everybody knew long before the change took place which overthrew that dynasty that it was inevitable. In the January preceding there was no man who walked the streets of Paris who did not well know what was about to happen ; but the existing Government in this country did not attempt to obtain any specific declaration in the four months succeeding the change. Was it for them (the late Government), when they came into office in 1830, to take up a question that bad been left in that state by those who had gone before them? Considering the existing state of Europe, they did not think it was consistent with the interests of this country that they should call upon France to eva cuate a country which they had lately conquered, and conquered without any interference on the part of the preceding Government. But the Right Hon. Gentle man himself had said that he did not impute any blame to the late Government, and, therefore, it was not neces sary for him to defend himself or his colleagues in any way on that point. He quite agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman that it was not expedient to go into any details upon this question, as he knew how expres sions which fell from persons in office were caught at and used injuriously to the public interest. lie ab• stained from entering into that question. It was, however, one of great importance.—(Hear, hear.) Much had been said with respect to the state of the navy, the result of which was this :—The Gentlemen on the other side when they sat on this were perpetually taunting the late Government with neglecting the navy of the country, by keeping it at so low an ebb as to render it impossible to be effective. Why, at that time they had twenty sail of the line, and yet at the present moment, when by their own admission grave and serious matters, which might lead to unpleasant results, were under negotiation, they had only nine sail of the line, three of which were in distant countries, so that they had in fact only six sail of the line in England. The present Government had not carried out in office those principles of national protection which they loudly called for when out of office. Gentlemen on the other side of the Howse en deavoured to explain why this country had so few ships of the line by stating that several were in China, but that was no excuse for the navy being in the state it was at the present moment. Then it was said that if there were not so many ships as there should be, they were full of men. Why, they had been told that in some small ships they had so many men that they could not work. This, he thought, showed that the present Administration was not of a very judicious character. The late Go vernment had left the present a force larger than they could want, and their business was to let that force down to what they thought proper, but that they had not done. A proper naval force was, in his opinion, the best economy for England, because the time might arise when it would be necessary. What, he would ask, was better calculated to prevent other coun tries from treating England with insult, than the keep ing up of a sufficient naval force ? He trusted that what had passed that evening, and the observations that had been made on a former occasion, would lead the Govern ment to take a different view with respect to these mat ters, and that in future they would have a naval force, such as would be considered proper for a peace estab lishment. Such an establishment could not be consi dered as a defiance to any country in the world,—it was simply a defensive system of policy. Such an es tablishment was necessary, in order to keep up a good understanding with every other country in the world. Whether his Right Hon. Friend would press his mo tion to a division he knew not, but he thought his object had been attained by the discussion that had taken place. He must deprecate the imputations that had been cast against his Right Hon. Friend of endeavouring to prevent a good understanding between this country and France ; he was sure that all who knew him must be well aware that he had no such object in view. The amendment of Mr. Sheil was then withdrawn. COMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH PRUSSIA. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had some time since given notice of his intention to move for the correspond ence that had taken place between the Prussian Govern ment and England relative to our commercial relations ; he wished now to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman would be enabled to lay them on the table before the end of the session ? Mr. GLADSTONE said he was afraid he could not produce them before the end of the session. ROYAL ACADEMY. Mr. lIUME then moved for an humble Address to her Majesty, " That, as patroness and comptroller of the Royal Academy of Arts, she will be graciously pleased to take into consideration the laws and regula tions of that institution, with a view of rendering it more conducive to the advancement of the fine arts, better suited to the spirit and circumstances of the present age, and more consonant with the original intention of its royal founder, George the Third." In bringing forward this motion he wished it to be shown that there was a desire to promote the fine arts in this country. The Royal Academy had, in his opinion, abused the patronage of the Crown. George the Third intended that it should be open to all, but that intention had been altered by time. The trial that had been given to the artists for decorations for the New Houses of Parliament had done more for the arts in this country than the Royal Academy ever since its institution. It was founded on an erroneous principle, as being self-elected, and gave no chance to rising artists. He referred again to the original institution of the Academy, and contended that it was meant to be open to the public; lie expressed his deep regret that this state of things should continue, and concluded by moving his resolution, leaving the House to deal with it as it thought fit. Sir: ROBERT PEEL much regretted that the Honourable Gentleman had not had the opportunity of bringing forward his motion at an earlier period, he (Sir R. Peel) might have been able more fully to have expressed his strong sense of the obligations under which this country was to the institution of which the Hon. Member had spoken so unjustly. The Hon. Member had mentioned the audacity of the President of the institution in having given an opinion as to the exclusion of the public. Now the Hon. Member ought not to have spoken in those terms of the delivery of an opinion by an honourable iaan, perfectly independent of the Hon. Members of this House, who received no salary for the duties he performed, and who devoted the whole of his time to the performance of those public duties ; and all who were acquainted with the manner in which Sir Martin Arthur Shee discharged those duties must be aware of his ability and zeal. The lion. Member said there had been a departure of the Royal Academy from the original conditions on which it had been founded. Now he held in his hand the original charter, granted by George 111. in 1768, in which the number of the members of the Academy was prescribed at forty, having the power to elect their successors, there being a provision for the public exhibition of paintings; and by the 17th article it was evident that that exhibition was not to be gratuitous, since it was provided that the profits arising from that exhibition should be applied to the purposes of the Aca demy, after deducting 200 L for indigent artists and their families. He affirmed that it was to the Royal Academy, and not to the House of Commons, that the country was indebted for a national school of art. The whole con nexion which the Legislature had with the Royal Academy was the adhering to the original charter, by providing the Academy with apartments. George 111. granted it apartments in Somerset House, and they con tinued there till the Government appropriated Somerset House for another purpose. Earl Grey gave them apart ments in the building, part of which was appropriated to the National Gallery. They did not ask for those rooms— they did not petition for them ; they merely received what had been secured to them by sixty years' usage ; and this did not give any Member of that House a right to visit them with that annoyance which the Hon. Gen tleman had done. The Academy had spent no less than 300,0001. in the promotion of art. The Academy, from its own means, provided a professor of painting, of sculp ture, and anatomy—not for their own purposes, but for the general advantage of the arts. It gave gratuitous admission to its lectures to all who chose to attend them, and at its own expense it educated no less than 2,000 artists men who earned their money by the hardest labour, commenced at the earliest period of their existence. Having done all this, it was too much for the Honourable Gentleman to turn round upon them and call them monopolists, and visit them with such censure merely because the House provided them with the accommodation of certain rooms. But the Academy also provided pensions for decayed artists. From whom did Wilson receive sup port in the decline of his life ? Not from the public who supported the widow of Hogarth and the widow of the celebrated engraver Woollet. Not from the Crown. Not from the Civil List. Not from Parliament. But from those funds which were appropriated to this pur pose. He would tell the Hon. Gentleman what would be the consequence if they carried their interference too far. They would have no man, like Sir Francis Chantrey, making a bequest, whi c h was really a national one, though given to the Academy, because he felt it was a body independent of Parlia ment, and not subjected to continual interference. Even the expense of an annual dinner was borne out of the funds. If they might judge of the institution, not merely by the eminence of the men who belonged to it, but by their moral character, he thought he could not speak of it in too high terms. He had been brought much into intercourse with the members, and he knew the difficulties with which they had to contend in un prosperous times. He saw them always exhibiting the feelings and maintaining the independence of gentle men, and he did not know any class which ought to stand higher in public opinion. He did hope that that House would not sanction the:assault made upon the Royal Academy by the Hon. Gentleman. The Royal Academy entertained great respect for that House; but they would infinitely rather sever all connection with:Par liament and with the Government, if they could only re tain their present apartments on the condition of being subject to constant interference. He saw Gen tlemen opposed to him in politics, who had had as frequent opportunities of judging of the merits of this institution as himself, and he trusted that they would join with him in deprecating this annual interference— that they would permit the Royal Academy to pursue the honourable tenour of its way, and not risk the evil consequences which he believed would arise to art in this country if they undertook to carry too far the prin ciple of interference with that institution.—(hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said that, after what the Right Hon. Gentleman had so well said, he would only address a few words to the House on the subject. He really thought the Hon. Gentleman had no case whatever, un less he could show that the public had contributed largely to the support of this institution, and even if that were the case, it would be impossible to give a more satisfactory answer to the Hon. Gentleman than he had received from the Right Hon. Baronet. The Hon. Gentleman said that two-thirds of the pictures in this exhibition were contributed by those who did not belong to the Academy. Why, if they asked those who visited the Academy which pictures attracted most attention, they would find that they were generally the pictures of those who either were, or soon became, members of the Academy.—(Hear, hear.) He was really surprised that the Hon. Gentleman would go on agitating this question. He hoped that those who were so deserving of the public respect would not feel hurt at the manner in which this question was being continually discussed. He was sure the great majority of that House wished to see them continue in the same honourable course which they had hitherto pursued.—(Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON said there was no country which was provided with such an admirable school for art without any expense, nor was there nny country in which the Government, as a Government, contributed, so little to art. Any one who bad been to see the exhi bition now taking place in Westminster-hall, must have been struck with the great quantity of talent in sculpture which that exhibition displayed ; and, on the other hand, any one who went to Trafalgar-square must per ceive how inadequate was the space provided there for the splendid models which required to be exhibited.— (Hear, hear.) Everybody was aware of the • lively in terest which the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government felt in works of art, and he hoped that be tween that period and next year he would devise some means by which this opportunity for the display of public works would be greatly enlarged.—(Hear.) Mr. HUME then read a document of the Royal Academy, stating that up to the 12th exhibition nothing was charged for admission. He could give a very different account of the institution and of the advantages derived from it from that which the House had heard ; but he would not trespass on the attention of the House. Sir R. PEEL wished to explain the circumstances to which the Hon. Gentleman had referred. George the Third, seeing that the public would give nothing to this institution for several years after it commenced gave to it 5,0001. a year ; and that was continued until the Aca demy informed his Majesty that they could support themselves by means of the exhibition. The motion was then negatived without a division. SUPPLY. The House then went into Committee of Supply. On the motion for granting 4,4111. for the schools of design, Mr. WILLIAMS expressed his approbation of the vote. Mr. HUME complained that two Members of that House had been refused admission to the Royal Aca demy. He thought that was the height of impudence. Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman was so good a judge of impudence, that he would not dispute with him on that point.—(Laughter.) Mr. HUME said he would not be deterred by any ob servations of that kind from continuing to pursue that course which he conceived to be right. Mr. WYSE would remind the Right Hon. Baronet of what had passed on a former occasion, as to the pro priety of opening a gallery for the exhibition of casts from sculpture. He had received two petitions for pre sentation on that subject, one from the society in Dublin, and one from London. He believed that with the sub scriptions and the donations which would be received, a very small sum would be sufficient to form such a gallery.—The vote was then agreed to. A vote of 2,006/. for the salaries of certain professors in the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge was then agreed to. On a vote of 2,345/. being proposed for the salaries of professors in Scotch Universities, Mr. HUME said that he approved of this vote, because an account was furnished as to the manner in which the money was expended, which was not the case with the vote to Oxford and Cambridge, and of that vote, there fore, he disapproved.—The vote was then agreed to. A vote of 5,5001. was proposed for the Port Patrick Harbour. Mr. HUME thought the vote of last year was to have completed the work. Sir GEORGE CLERK explained that this was the balance which last year it had been stated would be necessary to complete the work. Lord NEWRY asked if the Hon. Gentleman had seen a report of Sir John Rennie's on this subject. Sir GEORGE CLERK had seen such a report, but the Government had been proceeding upon the report of Mr. Walker.—The vote was then agreed to. A vote of 6,0001. for the repair of the colleges of the University of St. Andrews's was agreed to after a few words from Captain LOCKHART. A vote of 8,0001. was then proposed for the comple tion of the Nelson monument in Trafalgar -square. The announcement of this vote by Sir G. Clerk was re ceived with loud cheers from all parts of the House. Mr. WYSE wished to ask whether a proposition had not been some time since made by au artist, named Clarke, to complete the monument without charge ? Sir it PEEL said that certainly such an offer had been made by that artist, but the Government reserved to itself the right of considering the subject. He begged to be understood as not intending to say a word in dis paragement of the artist ; but, in general, nothing cauld be so unwise as to accept these voluntary offers on the part of artists. Mr. WYSE agreed entirely in what had been stated by the Right lion. Baronet ; but at the time the offer was made the Government had not come forward to complete the work. There was a deficiency of funds for the completion of the column. _ _ Mr. DALLY KNIGHT hoped that the base would be made in proportion to the height. The column had been shortened some twenty or thirty feet, and the base was out of proportion. When he saw such a statue, with such a cocked hat—(A laugh) —he could not help wishing that some more appropriate desig❑ had been adopted of showing our veneration for the memory of our great naval hero. Many persons had taken the figure for that of Napoleon, and this instance of what they considered our national generosity had had a great effect in allaying the irritation against us in France.— (A laugh.) He wished to know whether the lion and the other emblems, with which it was intended to adorn the base, were to be reduced in proportion to the re duced size of the column ? Sir R. PEEL begged to state to his Hon. Friend, that the size of the lion was an open question.—(A laugh.) The Government had not yet decided on the subject. Mr. B. COCIIRANE said a report was prevalent that the Emperor of Russia had, whilst in this country, subscribed 500 Z towards the Nelson monument ; he wished to know if that were correct? Nothing could be more disgraceful than that a national monument of this sort should be indebted for its completion to foreign aid. He understood that the column had been curtailed twenty or thirty feet from the inability of the Com mittee to obtain funds. In fact, this, as well as many other public works recently undertaken, showed the ne cessity of a Minister of Public Works in this country. Sir R. PEEL would call upon the House to bear in mind that the erection of this monument was originally a private affair. It had been proposed to erect a monu ment to Nelson on the same principle as the two monu ments to the Duke of Wellington, which had been re cently agreed to, by private subscription. One of these monuments was in the City, the other at the West-end. He could not help thinking that a spontaneous subscrip tion would be much more agreeable to the distinguished objects of it than a Parliamentary grant.—(Hear, hear.) About 20,1001. had been originally subscribed to the Nelson monument, but it was found to be in sufficient. The shaft of the monument was certainly curtailed from that which was originally proposed, but it was in accordance with the opinions of Sir R. Smirlee and Mr. Walker, who thought there would be danger in case of a hurricane, and the fall of such a monument in so crowded a thoroughfare might be productive of in convenience.— (Laughter.) Regarding the other ques tion, the donation of the Emperor of Russia, he could only reply that it had been made before the Government had control over the monument. It was then in the hands of a private Committee. His Imperial Majesty, wishing to mark his sense of the kind reception he had in this country and to express his admiration of one of her most distinguished heroes, presented the donation of 5001., which the Committee, considering the slender condition of their funds, did not think they should be justified in returning.—(A laugh.) The gift was made when the column was under private management. After a few words from Mr. B. COCHRANE, A vote of 7,5541. was proposed for the purchase of ancient pictures for the National Gallery. The vote was then agreed to. 6,900/. was then proposed to enable the trustees of the British Museum to purchase certain books, manuscripts, coins, &c. Colonel RAWDON said there were enough manu scripts in Dublin to form memoirs of all the counties, except two in Ireland. He hoped the Right Hon. Gen tleman, at the head of the Government, would give some assurance that the publication of these memoirs, would speedily take place. Sir R. PEEL said there was every wish on the part of Government to deal liberally with this subject. It was, however, their duty well to consider whether the demand for these memoirs would justify their publica tion. After a few observations from Mr. WYSE, the vote was agreed to. A vote of 80,0001. was agreed to for the purpose of de fraying the expense of the British settlement and esta blishment at Hong-Kong. A vote of 149,000/. for the disembodied militia in Ire land was also agreed to. On the vote of 19,0001. for the repair of damage done to the gunpowder manufactory at Waltham Abbey by the explosion, Captain PECIIELL asked what precautions had been taken against Captain Warner in the new buildings ? After what they hadseen in the papers to-day there really seemed to be no safety. Captain Warner had gone to Brighton—he wished he had gone anywhere else—for the sunken vessel would cause great damage to the nets of the fishermen. The Gallant Officer opposite was there—a party to the transaction—and he wished to know if the Government would remedy the mischief it had caused. Captain BOLDERO said he was there among forty. thousand, as an amateur. He saw the vessel blown up, but how it was done he could not tell. The resolutions were then agreed to, and the report ordered to be received this day. SOUTH SEA COMPANY BILL. The South Sea Company Bill went through Com mittee, and the report was ordered to be brought up this day. LAND-TAX COMMISSIONERS NAMES BILL. On the motion for the third reading of the Lend-taw Commissioners Names Bill, Lord WORSLEY said he objected to clergymen being placed on the list, and he therefore begged tq move, to omit the following names for the division of Horncastle and llill, in the coumty of Lincoln:—The Rev. George Thackeray, Hemingby ; the Rev. Edward Walter, Langton by Horncastle ; the Rev. Charles Tetrott. Wispington ; the Rev. John Fawsett, llorncastie; the Rev. Francis Pickford, Hagworthingham ; the Rev. Edward Price, Hagworthingliarn ; the Rev. John Thomas Maine, Harrington Hall ; the Rev. Henry Salmonby. Sir G. CLERIC said this was a most unusual course. The Noble Lord had been requested to draw up a list for the northern division of Lincolnshire, and in doing so he had omitted the names of clergymen. 'The Noble Lord's colleague, who did not entertain the same objec tions, had likewise rent in a list containing the names of clergymen. If they were not qualified for serving they could not act without rendering themselves liable to a penalty. Mr. lIUME objected to clergymen acting at all, and would support the motion of the Noble Lord. After a few Words from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and Lord WORSLEY, strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion Against it 34 Majority against the motion —2l The Bill was then read a third time and passed. GILBERT UNIONS. Mr. BARNABY then, rose to move that three be a quorum on the Committee on the Gilbert Unions. Mr. BROTHERTON said this motion would lead to discussion, and he should therefore move that the House do adjourn. The House divided, when there appeared— For the adjournment 6 Against it.. Majority Mr. BARNABY then proposed his motion. Captain PECHELL opposed the motion as one that was quite unprecedented. He thought it was a reflec tion on the Committee, as it implied neglect on their part. He should certainly take every possible mode of resisting the motion. He concluded by moving the ad• journment of the debate. Mr. WAKLEY thought the debate had better be ad journed. ~_ After some short discussion, the motion was with drawn. _ . . Lord ELIOT obtained leave to bring in a Bill to con tinue so much of an Act of the second and third years of her present Majesty as enables justices to grant war rants for entering places in which spirits are sold, with out license, in Ireland. Sir G. CLERK brought in a Bill to transfer the col lection of the duty on licenses to let horses for hire in Ireland from the Commissioners of Stamps to the Com missioners of Excise. The House adjourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock. MEDICAL TESTIMONIAL—SIGHT AND HEARING. From T. J. Pettigrew, Surgeon, F.R.S. to Messrs. S. and B. Solomons, opticians, 39, Albgaiarle-street, Piccadilly,—Gentlemen, I have no hesitation in replying to your inquiry as to the results obtained by the use of your Improved Spectacles ; being in the constant habit of reading and writing for many hours together by lamp light, it is but justice to say that your newly invented Spectacle Lenses have afforded me the greatest comfort. When I employed the ordinary pebbles, I never failed to experience in the morning a great irritation in the eyes. Since I have used your admirable glasses I suffer from no inconvenience of the kind, and my vision is much im proved. I shall ever feel grateful to my good fiend, Dr. Blundell for having drawn my attention to the sub ject.—Believe me to be yours, very respectfully. T. J. PETTIGREW, 8, Saville-row. Also, newly invented Acromatic Waistcoat-pocket Telescopes and °Nip.- glasses of the same kind of Lenses.—Every kind of Te lescope of larger size and increasing powers for shooting, sea purposes, and upon stand for astronomical observa tions the powers are so great and the lenses so bright and brilliant that minute objects at an extraordinary dis tance is brought completely under the eyes. Sportsmen tourists, and sea-side visitors will indeed here have a great treat. Acoustic instruments of every description for deafness. Caution.—Messrs. S. & B. Solomons, opti cians and aurists, are not in any way connected with a person of the same name in their immediate neighbour hood, nor in any part of the country. To pre nt mis takes, be cautious, and observe—Only to be hM. at 39, Albemarle-street, Piccadilly, opposite the York Hotel. BOULOGNE AND CALAIS.—The number of persons who passed to and from France rid Boulogne, during the week ending last Thursday, was 2,695 ; and rid Calais, 562. The numbers in the corresponding week of last year were— Boulogne, 1,356 ; and Calais, 702. ern" ken the Lied