The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-09 00:00:00

ANJO' v. SaN w pg 11°' ° - siou 01 1 and in tbeirpji °, 5 Ckill , -' ew las b eell 11°t°11704 g One l e ol e s dill Oil 1(4.1' 0 o n or e° were bile fpr those 0 iinati"'' f sco ni „,"l pa rtl°7 ' trees , c°. ;5 dee its ' . Auk tin" a gent be t b. 1 0' iaiglYor bee', it bed [itbillc!!!l°,,e7 i.• , ,iO. Ae_„fiji MPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF L I? D S March 8. le FEES TO CLERKS IN PEI TY SESSIONS. T Marq u i s o f LANSDOWNE moved for certa i n ret urns relating to fees paid to clerks in petty sessions. iel_grievance he said, was more heavy upon the poorer they of the country t h an t h e d eman d s ma d e u p on eftl in the shape of fees. The result was, that there Vs_ almost an absolute denial of justice to a great num vfof perso ns w h o h appened to be in a state of poverty. r • The returns were then ordered. CORN-LAWS. fro he Earl of lIADDINGTON presented two petitions t.vftl laddington an d ot h er p l aces , pray i ng f or protec t t 31 )•0 the agr i cultural interest) in doing so, he sa id to a meeting had been got up by about twenty persons --- - • fit "ur of the Anti-C orn -l a w League movement ; ct from them a petition had emanated purporting to be It em the agr i cu l turists of the country, and, i n eonse ' 12 11 c. several meetings were held of those, who were all 7raons composed of landowners, farmers, and agricul -1 serva nt s, from which the petitions he had pre , aeated emanated. re 7he Ma rqu i s o f N O RMANBY move d f or certain urns with resp e ct to the Charitable Donation Funds la Ireland. COURT OF PRIVY m i COUNCIL. L ord BROUGHAM said he shed to make some ° c u o se rvations with respect to the jurisdiction of the to t ut of Privy Council. Important questions relating . col on i al and Indian matters were decided by the e riv Y Coun c il, an d t h ere f ore i t was a3so l u t e l y necessar y k t e very possible a ssi s t a nce should be given to that ta l i rt• If it was such an important Court with h a vec, t to our di stant possess i ons , h ow muc h mo re Portant must it be to our British subjects at home ? tr t felt confid en t i n asser ti ng , an d h e as sure he would eo ° rile out in th a t asser ti o n the more that matter was h_ ft sidered,- that nothing could be more unfair, or more i'r ati sfactory than the present law of divorce, and that j o e Y were also bound not only to act upon their own th'groent and reflection, but that they also should avail a :pelves o f t h e exper i ence o f o th er coun t r ie s to try t , devise some mode of amending those laws. This his ° fte of the reasons inducing him to bring forward measure, and he trusted it would meet with the raent of their Lordships. The expense of a divorce po ad o ul eit a remedy only to be obtained by the rich. A ftlan never could avail himself of the remedy of ta ,„ ft ree under the existing state of the law. Was there th i f example for this state of the law? No, we were ° ftlY Protestant country in which such a state of the Iv"; el hted. Even in Scotland the law was different to of tt it was in this country with respect to the remedy div orce. But this difficulty and partiality of the law ( it at present stood would b e o b v i ate d b y prov idi ng k! Judi c i a l C omm i ttee o f th e P r i v y Co u ncil with the We r of disposing of applications for divorces. In asr l And the cost of procuring a divorce was from 30/. to while in England to obtain a Divorce Bill—unop ,the cost was from 500/. to 600/. ; if the Bill 1, 01 ,71 be opp ose d it wou ld a mount to from 1,0001. to 14 - 7 1 No one could say that this was a proper state of .11 1 , 1 `," 7 . By the present law too, a person proceeding Consistorial Court on account of adultery by his had to pay both his own costs in prosecuting his and the costs to which his wife might be put, in ;;,loeuting her defence. Persons were frequently Cfted by proceedings in the Consistorial Court, even be •thr they could be in a position to apply to their n Lord fts' House r a divorce. This the was he stte L it re law on this important subject. If a t man a of t ed means went to the expense of getting a verdict k i a ft action for trim . con., he would not have suf a .1,4 'Deans to apply to the Ecclesiasttcal Court to get 4„riree afterwards. He thought that it would be be- Ju eial if thi s t r ib un al were to take cognisance in con • nation with the Consistorial Judges of those matters. tis co nclusion, the Noble Lord said he should support it,,,second reading of the Bill. bi ,'he LORD CHANCELLOR said he had always ex 4e,s,sed, himself strongly of opinion that there ought to fixed President of the Judicial Committee of the to be Council, and therefore he thought this Bill ought m 4E 7 allowed to be read a second time, and afterwards ir ed to a Committee up stairs. He would, however, authority ; for, if they did so, he could assure them at their political authority would soon follow. 14 N ord CO TTE NHAM sa id hi s H on . an d L earne d . I , r k i (Lord Brougham) had not adverted to one clause 'eh,' if it became law, would refer all matters • e judicial nature from that House to the • o,(,ft il mittee of the Privy Council. He alluded to e 9 th clause, which provided that any matter or thing eel' be re f erre d f rom th a t H ouse t o the Privy Conn ' - There was no limit to this clause. If that clause Are to become law it would strip that House of all authority. He (Lord Cottenham) was of opinion, N l ;tt the l aw w i t h respect to di vorce was v ery unsatis- Z; but he did not believe that the proposition of his e x Ze Friend would furnish any redress at all. The nsesjn such matters were of course referred to as A th e chief grievance. Why there were heavy expenses 11,7' 4- cases tried before the Judieial Committee of the kt ,.. 1% 7 Council. There were the expenses of counsel, and witnesses, the same as in proceedings before ""` 4 1 °use. It was true, that there were fees to be Patti t ft cases heard before that House, but those fees were into a fund, called the Fee Fund, and were the pro -410? of the public. Now if these fees so much increased • it."Penses in cases to be heard before that House jaa obvious that the proper course to be pursued • old b e to abolish those fees rather than refer all such q tl ea to another, and, perhaps, equally expensive tri , 11 04 41 . He thought it would be better if some jurisdic ha were to be established by which this remedy would ~,,11._Ivailable generally. He also approved of that portion 1j t he Bill which related to laws of divorce and of patent 145;444 although there were other _points in it which he i t : c !ht ought to be considered in Committee. Iti l „t 1, CAMPBELL said the question before them was, t lir s: , uor this law was to be administered by the Legisla . 1 4 4 ii. 0 r by a judicial tribunal. It was also proposed that bu t lament was to have a control over the Committee ; tag l 0 was that to be effected unless all the evidence re t - d L l ftd before them. He should support the second t 'ug, but, at the same time, he should, when the Bill tag I ' l4 Committee, propose many alterations in it. he Bishop of EXETER complained that the rights b ye privileges of the Church would be materially affected his Rill, because, in many cases, there might be an ap- Iviil„t r ool the Court of Arches brought before them, in . the rights of the dignitaries of the Church would 04 1 t ftjolved And it was well known that some of those of tr Established might be persons not of the communion of m e -mstablished Church. He found fault with many ~ c 1 .0,0 principles involved in that portion of the Bill rola related to the subject of divorce. r d BROUGHAM, in reply, said that the Right on thPrelate had no just cause for the fears he expressed T he part of the Church. "e Bish op o f EXETER exp l a i ne d. 4, 4 ' 4 e LORD CHANCELLOR thought his Noble and a t tfted Friend had better divide the Bill into two parts, i gthat part relating to thelaw of divorce a separate • ltaT r d BROUGHAM said he would move that it be tiv o " ft strction to the Committee to divide the Bill into , t partus if they should think fit. be he Bill w as then read a second time, and ordered to referr e d to a Select Committee. Their Lordships then adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS, March 8. 0' ( 1 45 k SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four fir. ne. tUSFEILD presented a petition from Malton ist the Scarborough Railway Bill. foi,.°lnnel WYNDHAM presented a petition from Bed -R. against the Shoreham and Chichester Railway Bill. tio:,,CUARLES BURRELL presented similar peti iroin different parts of Sussex. ATHLONE ELECTION. b„ ',Chalmers, the Clerk of the Election Committees, tie ri gh t up the evidence taken before the Athlone Elec -I:i‘Aniunittee. kas C. ROUND brought in the Northern and • to h t : r nßailway Bill, which was read a first, and ordered • . st read a second time on Monday. he n : . J OHN YARDE BULLER presented a petition th e T P er sons residing on the Beach of Dawlish, stating Itkititheir prop erty wou ld b e i n j ure d b y t h e S out h D evon litiv. Wa Y bill, and praying that it might not pass into a • rin l 11 presented a petition from the Rev. 'Si r • 1,, 41 e, against th e Guildford J unc tion Railway Bill: their•uWAßD DOUGL AS presented a petition from Birke a yor and T own C ounc il o f Li verpoo l, aga i nst t h e • Cnhead Improvement Bill. fro WI LLIAM HEATHCOTE presented a petition st o i c inchester in favour of the railway from Basing e•,,, t° thNewbury. s a d e 'notion of Sir W. HEATHCOTE, the Newbury .1/:r„ingstoke R a il way Bill was rea d a secon d t i me . .. n IELD, ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE, AND of M • MANCHESTER RAILWAY. of Mr. WI LSON PATTEN moved the second reading Bi ll sh. • *e re ESTCOURT would just mention that there had " 17 0 Bills before the House, and that an application tha Co e n Inside to the Committee of Selection to appoint ' eationmunittee on one of those Bills. Upon that appli for th b 'ing made he immediately sent to the agent s, ',other Bill, to know if he was foray rey. His reply co ils that he should not be ready ome time—the C „tlinencewas, that a great hardship was inflicted upon • CoarZ t it t t ies who were ready at once to go before the ee * 1)04 GLAD STONE said, that if parties, for the pur tage.-°f creating delay, should be found to take advan nthe rule of thatj House, which provided that to 2 enn3 Peting railway li nes should be referred to ,411 e COmmittee, he thought some measure ought .47ft a :Pted to Prevent such a course being taken. tune_' S port di scuSs i on, the Bill was read a secon d • )4r. ty Is rea ITd TEWPORT DOCKS BILL. w-latT brou g ht i n t h e N ewport D oc k s Bill, r , as a first . %OMMITTEES time ON RAILWAY BILLS. tiott. 'IniDLEY rose to move the . following resolu ter*--"That any p er ested M ember, whose constituents are locally e u • milted `'_:_ally competing lines of railway, may . b w tti th eir s lt upon the Committee appointed to decide The el l to rvespective merits, though without being tit; %us e , ir e ; 1 1 )011 any question arising thereon." • . °th e , e __Y the resolution to which they had come '"oin • 'ening, on the subject of the constitution re v initt ees . . kitresentatio Railway Bills, had, in fact, given up the of their constituents altogether. He ad hadknti that 4 1 • ch o personal as perf ec tl y r i g h t that the Members who f rom tt i nterest in pri va t e Bill s s h ou ld b e ex % r 4 ntati ve ne Committe es ; b ut w i t h regard to the 40?ry ( Le o _ it s of local i nterests, their case rested upon k for t footing. To whom would the country ba At° tiler defence of their local interests, ex t.__ ! respective representatives ? The House w a t. th at : It atulti ar itself by the resolutions it had come to repr es i e ._ L Did they mean to say that a Member *sitnq kcal interests, had 110 sufficient "CI" ledge or public spirit to give an honest vote ? The real secret was that certain lion. Members had not the moral courage, while they saw two parties among their con stituents, to offend either of the parties, and therefore they were exceedingly glad to shirk their duty. The presence o!' the local Member on a Committee •••• ould tend to check some of the back-stairs influence that now prevailed, and that Member would act under the control of public opinion. He thought they had departed from the open English principle in the resolution they held adopted. If the constituents did not approve of his conduct they had the remedy in their own hands. He thought it would be right that the local interest of par tictVar places should be consulted in such matters, and that Committees should not be deprived of the advan tages of hearing the arguments of those well acquainted with the details of the matter. Mr. P. BORTH WICK having seconded the motion, Mr. GLADSTONE said he thought the resolution now introduced by the Hon Gentleman was superfluous. He thought the grounds taken in support of his position by the Hon. G entleman opposite were quite useless, and he would even say almost invidious ; for in Committees, upon any other subject, no such power* were ever called for. If such a power was allowed to exist in the present instance, a great deal of in';onvenience would arise, 13, cause a great many of those gentlemen who now proposed to have the right of attending those Committees would be actuated by different and discordant interests. He trusted that the House would feel no hesitation in negativing the motion. Mr. W. PATTEN was extremely glad to hear what had fallen from his Right Honourable Friend. There had been a great difference of opinion in Committees as to whether Members were to be allowed to attend and represent the inte rests of their constituents. He thought that if it had been known at the time when the measure was introduced that Members would have the power of stating the case of their constituents who were not able to appear by counsel, many who supported the measure would have voted against it on that express ground. Mr. LABOUCHERE agreed in substance with what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman. He was not aware, however, that any Member of Parliament had a right to address the Committee on behalf of his con stituents. His impression had hitherto been that the right extended only to attending the Committee, and there was the greatest risk of inconvenience through protracting the proceedings of the Committee unneces sarily, if any other principle were adopted. Perhaps the Speaker would be good enough to state to the House what was the practice of Parliament in reference to this matter. Mr. GLADSTONE said he had not meant to state that any Member.had an absolute right to address the Committee; all he had meant to say was, that practically no objection -was felt to the making of a statement. The SPEAKER wished to observe, in reply to the question of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that no Member who was not a Member of the Committee had any right to interfere with the proceedings. He had no right to examine witnesses though he might be present in the room. Dr. BOWRING said that regulation which prevented Members from interfering with the proceedings of Select Committees on Railroads, upon which they were not appointed, had given great satisfaction, and he thought it was desirable to extend tho rule to all other Select Committees as well as Railway Committees. After a few words from Mr. H. HINDE, Mr. HINDLEY withdrew his motion, observing that if any measure affecting the interests of his constituents were referred to a Select Committee, he should apply to that Committee, as a matter of courtesy, to receive his suggestions. The Newbury and Great Western Railway Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. Mr. R. PALMER presented a petition from the landowners on the line, against the Newbury and Great Western Railway Bill. The Slamannan Junction Railway Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. NORTH BRITISH RAILWAY. Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition in favour of the North British Railway Bill, which was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. NOTICES OF MOTION.—ATHLONE ELECTION. Mr. W. O. STANLEY gave notice that when the Committee on the Athlone election presented their Report, he should move for a Select Committee to in quire into the whole circumstances attending the election for that borough. SLAVE TRADE. Sir J. HANMER gave notice that, when the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton brought forward. his motion, he should move, as an amendment, that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, for taking into consideration the treaties relating to the slave trade. TOBACCO DUTIES. Dr. BOWRING, on the part of the lion. Member for Montrose, posponed the motion of which that Hon. Member had given notice on the subject of the tobacco duties until Monday next. LAW OF DIVORCE. Mr. ELPHINSTONE moved for a return of the number of matrimonial suits instituted in each metropo litan Diocesan Court in England, Wales, and Ireland, in 1840, 1841, 1842, and 1843, also a similar return from Courts having consistorial jurisdiction in Scotland in 1840, 1841, 1842, and 1843; also, number of matrimonial suits in Judicial Committee of Privy Council or House of Lords, on appeal, in 1840, 1841, 1842, and 1843 ; also, return of number of Divorce Acts passed by the Legislature in 1840, 1841, 1842, and 1843 ; also the average expense of such suits, in 1840, 1841, 1842, and 1843, as far as the same can be stated by the officers of the above- mentioned Courts.—Agreed to. COPPER, TIN, AND LEAD TRADE. Sir C. LEMON moved for returns of the import and export of copper, lead, and tin, and of copper ore into the United Kingdom, during the year ending Jan. 5, 1844, distinguishing the copper and copper ore ex ported from the ports of Liverpool, and the per eentage of copper contained in the copper ore exported. Dr. BOWRING begged to ask the Right Hon. Gen tleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, when the report of the Commission to inquire into Welsh grievances would be communicated to the House. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had received the Report to which the Hon. Gentleman referred, only yesterday; he expected to receive the evidence on Mon day. In the early part of next week he would lay both the report and the evidence on the table of the House. STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES—IRELAND. Lord EBRINGTON begged to ask the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, when the returns which had been moved for on a former evening, respecting the Sti pendiary Magistrates in Ireland, would be laid before the House ? L);d ELIOT said he believed the returns would be prepared by Monday neNicimA. Mr. MACAULAY had a, question to put to the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury, and in doing so he wished to correct a misunderstanding which had gone abroad respecting what he had said the other night, as to the late proceedings at Gwalior. He was represented to say that those proceedings were in accordance with and in pursuance of a treaty which was entered into in 1805. On the contrary, what he did say was, that the proceedings were founded upon a treaty which was notoriously annulled in 1805. Was the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) now prepared to answer the question lie put to him yesterday ? Sir ROBERT PEEL said the India mail had arrived, and in the course of the day the Govern ment had received their dispatches. He had every reason to suppose that the proclamation alluded to had been sent officially with them. In the Government dispatch, however, there were no less than 97 inclo sures, and of course he had not yet had time at present to go carefully through them. He assumed the procla mation was there ; no doubt it was. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay) had declared on his own authority that the treaty of 1804 was notoriously annulled in 1805. There had been hardly time since last evening to search into the matter, but so far as he (Sir R. Peel) remembered, there were three treaties between the Maharajah of Sindia, and the Government of India. There was the treaty of 1803, the treaty of 1804, and the treaty of 1805. The first, that of 1803, was a general treaty for peace ; that of 1804, was a treaty of alliance offen sive and defensive, and stipulated that Sindia, in case of necessity, should be entitled to call on the Anglo-Indian Government for assistance ; and the treaty of 1805 was made to correct some defects in the treaty of 1803, and had no reference to that of 1804. The question, therefore, arose whether the treaty of 1804 was overruled by that of 1805. Mr. MACAULAY had no wish under the circum stances to prolong the discussion. The Right Hon. Gentleman would lay the proclamation before them, and, of course, was not in a position at that moment to give a distinct opinion on the question just put to him. FACTORIES BILL. - _ Sir J. GRAHAM postponed the second reading of this Bill until Friday next, when he would positively proceed with it. SUGAR DUTIES. Mr. M. GIBSON wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) in reference to a statement made by him last night in the debate on the sugar duties. He (Mr. Gibson) had understood him to state that the consumption of sugar in this country for the year ending January, 1844, was greater than had ever taken place in any former year.—(Cries of "No, no.") He understood the Right Hon. Gentleman to state that the consumption of sugar in the year ending in January, 1844, was greater than any that had taken place in any former year, except one. Now, he (Mr. M. Gibson) had taken some trouble te. look into the Parliamentary papers, and make calculations upon proper authority with refer ence to the amount taken into consumption during past years, and he found, from the calculations he had made, that in the years 1830, 1831, 1835, and 1837, the quantity of sugar consumed in this country was greater than the quantity•consumed in the year ending January, 1844. Now he wanted to know whether the Right Hon. Ba ronet meant to state it as a fact, that the consumption was greater in 1844 than any preceding year, with the exception of one ? Sir R. PEEL said that the statements he had made were from documents that he hadin his possession, and if he was incorrect it was competent for the Hon. Gentle man to correct him by moving for the documents. What he had stated was, that the consumption in the last year was greater than the consumption of any year, with but one exception, and that was the year 1842. In that year the consumption was 4,550,000 cwts., while last year it was 4,450,000 cwts. If he had made any mistake in the matter he was sorry for it, but it was perfectly competent for the Hon. Member to correct it by adopting the course that he had suggested. Mr. BELLEW put a question to the Secretary for Ire land (Lord Eliot) with respect to the manner in which, on a jury in arecent criminal case, every Catholic had been struck off. _ _ _ _ . Lord ELIOT declined answering until he had received further infvrination cm the subject. • THE SUE, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, MARCH 9, 1844, BRAZIL. Mr. EWART wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, with respect to Brazil. The Government of Brazil proposed to impose by their new tariff a duty of 60 per cent. on the value of the manufactures of this coun try. Now, he wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet, whether the duty which the Government imposed upon Brazilian sugar was not 150 per cent. on the value? He only asked the Right Hon. Baronet to give them what was the reciprocal duty on the value of the manu factures imported into Brazil, and the duty on the value of Brazilian produce imported into this country. Sir R. PEEL said, with respect to the calculation whether a certain amount of duty would be 150 per cent. on the value of the article, he thought the Hon. Member was quite competent to make that calculation him self.—(A laugh.) The proposition made by the Bra zilian Government was, that its sugar should be admitted into this country at the same rate of duty as colonial sugar. There was subsequently a relaxa tion of that condition ; and the Brazilian Government offered, that whatever might be the amount of duty on colonial sugar, the duty on Brazilian sugar should not exceed that by more than one-tenth—that was to say, if 10s. was the duty on colonial produce, the duty on Brazilian produce should not exceed 11s. With respect to manufactured produce, the proposal of the Brazilian Government was that the duty on cotton wool should be 40 per cent. ad valorem ; that the duty on woollen goods should be 30 per cent. ad valorem. On other articles there was to be no restriction. Mr. WARBURTON said the question was singly an arithmetical one ; it was whether 275. 6d.—that was 25F., plus 2s. 6d—was not a duty at the rate of 158 per cent. His lion. Friend wished to draw a contrast be teen the -rate of duty the Brazilians wis!.(,d to put on our produce, and the rate of duty they were pre pared to submit to from us—that was 40 or 60 per cent. on their side, on our goods, against 158 per cent. on our side, on their sugar. The conversation then dropped. POOR-LAW. Mr. TURNER asked the Right Hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he intended introducing into the Poor-law Bill a clause to appoint chaplains to the poor-law unions, to be paid out of the rates, to the exclusion of the clergy of the Protestant Dissenters ? Sir J. GRAHAM said he adhered to the answer he had given to a similar question, put to him by the Hon. Member for Evesham. In any alteration of the Poor law Act, he did not intend to propose any alteration in the law relating to religious instruction in union work houses. EMPLOYMENT OF THE NAVY IN THE COL• LECTION OF POOR-RATES, IRELAND. Captain PECHELL rose to explain a statement which he had made on Friday last on the subject of the employment of the navy to enforce the payment of poor-rates in Ireland. The Right Honourable Baronet opposite, one of the Lords of the Admiralty, had stated that he was not aware of the existence of such a practice ; and he (Captain Pechell) had quoted from an Irish county paper a statement that the Earl of Lucan had, at a meeting of the Castlebar Union, de clared his determination rather to encourage resist ance to the poor-rate collectors, than to submit to the imposition of a new rate, while so large a portion of the first rate remained uncollected. In reply to the Earl of Lucan, Captain Blake was reported to have said that naval forces were coming round to the coast, and the Earl of Lucan was reported to have replied, that he had no doubt but that the Government would send forces to enforce the collec tion of the rates. He had since received a communication from the Earl of Lucan, denying that he had ever made such a statement, and he thought it his duty to state that fact to the House. At the same time he begged to state that he had only quoted the statement as he had found it in a newspaper published in the Noble Earl's own county. REDUCTION OF THE THREE -AND•A-HALF PER CENTS. On the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into Committee on the reduction of the Three and-a-Half per Cents. being read, Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose amidst loud cries of " Oh, oh," and said he had several petitions to present on the subject of supply. The SPEAKER begged to inform the Hon. Member that he could not present the petitions.—(Cheers.) The motion was, that the House should resolve itself into Committee on the Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Annuities, and not that it should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.—(Cheers.) the - house then resolved itself into Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the subject which it was his duty to submit to the House, was one which would be acknowledged by every one to be of considerable importance. It involved the dealing with a large amount of the public debt ; it was calculated to produce a great annual saving in the charge which the public incurred on account of that debt ; and if the House should be pleased to agree to the measure which he should pro pose, it would tend, in his opinion, to raise the character and the power of this country, by evincing the extent of our great resources, and our determination to discharge with honour the national debt.—(Cheers.) If he were the first time calling upon the House to deal with a subject of this nature, he might think it necessary to enlarge upon the motives which justified him in making such a proposition. But he was not the first Finance Minister of this country who had had the pleasing task of recommending similar arrangements to the House ; and the principle upon which those arrangements proceeded was one so universally acknowledged by statesmen of the greatest financial ability, by men of every shade of opinion—it had been so fre quently recommended by Committees of the House of Commons, and so frequently acknowledged and con firmed by Parliament—that he felt himself relieved from the necessity which on such a subject might otherwise be imposed upon him, of showing to the House the cor rectness of the principle upon which his proposal was founded. His task was of a different nature. The pro priety of affording relief to the public being acknowledged, the duty that devolved upon him was to satisfy the House that the time was arrived, and that circumstances were favourable for accomplishing a reduction of the debt which would produce a great annual saving. It was in the discharge of that duty that he presented himself to the House ; and he begged their attention, for a short period, while he stated to them the grounds upon which he conceived himself called upon to propose, and upon which he trusted the House would adopt, the measures which he had now to submit. The alteration which he was about to recommend to the House was one dealing with a large amount of debt— an amount of debt absolutely larger than that with which any House of Parliament was ever before called upon to deal. It was no less—or only a few hundred pounds less—than 250 millions of the na tional debt. If it were considered relatively, in the pro portion which it bore to the whole amount of the debt, he could not say that in that respect it was unprecedented ; because when they looked back to the first occasion in which a reduction of the annual interest was proposed to the. House by Mr. Pelham in 1749, they would find that that Minister had to deal with a sum inferior in amount to that which he had mentioned, lit still a sum which, compared with the existing eb, of the country at the time, exceeded by one-third lb. nroportion which the present amount bore to the 1101, debt of the country. But then that really a hi man relied upon the character and credit of the country, and the willingness of all men to curibute to its welfare, and he carried the reduction into effect with success and with universal applause. Ho (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had alluded to the magnitude of the amount ; for he thought that on an occasion like this the House ought to have the whole of the facts before them. It was his duty to state to them that which, in the eye of every considerate man, was a main element in the ope ration. Be would say that the time had arrived when the operation could be effected, and when he thought it ought to be effected. It had been long the opinion of the public that the Government ought to undertake this reduction ; it had long been declared by the organs of public opinion that the time was not distant when the interest of the debt should be reduced ; and this opinion was confirmed by his own attentive consideration of the money market of the country. He believed that there never was a time when the amount of capital seeking employment was greater than at present. That resulted from various causes. There was a large amount of capital accumulated by the industry of individuals, which was greater in this country in recent years than ever had been known in any other country in the world. Another cause was the want of security in foreign investments, from which not even the interest could be obtained, and the firmness of the security in the funds of this country, which induced not only her own children to invest their capital, but drew also the capital of other countries. The evidence of the abundance of money was to be found in the price which securities bore at present ; and it was notorious that the holders of Consols at present derived little more than 31. Is. per cent., and upon Exchequer Bills little more than 21. 4s. per cent. It was true that private securities gave a greater interest ; and that was natural, for the security of the nation was necessarily greater than that of a private individual. But, notwithstanding the favourable state of the money market, there might be circumstances arising to cause this facility of acquiring loans to be one that might turn out only of a temporary character. But when he looked around him, and saw the good understanding which existed between this country and all foreign nations—when he saw the continued influx, day by day, of the capital of other countries into this—when he saw the revival of trade, industry, and commerce, in all parts of the world—when he thus saw all countries pacified, and reflected on the un tiring energy of his own—he would not anticipate anything which should forbid the attempt, which he called upon the House to assist him in making, to reduce the burthens of the country. There was another essential element in the consideration of this matter, and that was the time at which the change was proposed to be made—a time when the revenue promised them so much assistance. He felt, what he was sure every Member in that House felt, that that State which had not the means of defraying its current expenditure by its current means within the year, was not in a state to deal advantageously with its burthens and obligations. Its measures would be greatly crippled, and a Government so situ ated must be compelled to forego advantages which, under another and a better state of things, it would be right and expedient to avail themselves of. He was happy to say (happy was he to pay so just a tribute to the House of Commons he was then Addressing)--he Was happy to- say that by their exertions in the year 1842—by their energy, foresight, and determination—they had been able to place the revenue of the country on a footing to meet the exigencies of the service. They had now got a revenue more than equal to their expenditure, and they were thereby enabled to reap the advantages which a firm adherence to a principle of that nature was ever sure to give—and thus realise to the country the benefit not merely of a temporary reduction of a few taxes, but of the permanent obligations of the State. He had said that the income of the present year was more than suffi cient to meet the charges of that year. . So far as the two last quarters were concerned the excellent state of the re venue was shown by documents already on the table of the House. The House would find by the papers that had been laid before it, that, at the commencement of thelast year the balance in the hands of the Government was 1,400,0001, while, at the termination of it, it was upwards of 4,7oo,oool—(Hear, hear.) I am happy (continued the Right Honourable Gentleman) to inform the House also that, speaking at the present moment, I can state to them that there arc no deficiency bills of the Bank unsatisfied. We are free at this quarter from repaying those advances made by the Bank for the purpose of meeting the demands for the public service. I can also state that, since the sth April last, it has not been necessary to apply to the Bank for advances in an ticipation of the votes of the House of Commons. So far as these things are concerned, however useful they may be in themselves, yet they are calculated to cripple the Goveinment. I can assure the House that from those encumbrances we are at the present moment free. I will also point the attention of the House to this fact, that the amount of the unfunded debt at this moment is less than it has been for many antecedent years ; that the amount of Exchequer-bills is only between eighteen and nine teen millions—that they bear an interest of 2/4s. percent. and that, at the present moment, they bear a premium of 735. Looking, therefore, at the growing wealth of this country, looking at its capital, considering its vast resources, looking at the continuance of its friend ly relations with foreign Powers, considering that the re venue has recovered from the temporary difficulty under which it laboured—considering that we are free from unfunded and floating debt, I think that I have made out a case to this House, to show that the time has arrived when those who have the management of the financial affairs of the country should make an attempt to reduce the interest on the national debt. The debt we have to deal with on this occasion amounts to nearly 250,000,000/, and consists of four several kinds of stock. The first is the Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, originally created in 1818, which is the foundation of stock of this description, and amounts to 16,000,000/ The next is the Reduced Three-and-a-Half per Cents., being a stock which was first established in the year 1760, originally as a Four per Cent. Stock, added to at various periods, and reduced to Three-and-a-Half per Cent. in 1824, when Lord Ripon was Chancellor of the Exchequer. It amounted to 67,500,0001. The next is the Three-and-a-Half per Cents., originally funded in 1784, at 5 per cent., and which has, in the gradual progress of the country, the growth of capital, and confidence in our own resources, undergone two several reductions—one in 1822, when Mr. Van sittart was Chancellor of the Exchequer, from five per cent to four ; and the other in 1830, when I had the honour of holding the office I now fill, and when it was further reduced to Three-and-a-Half per Cent., at which it has ever since remained. The last stock is the one called the Old Three-and-a-Half per Cents., which was an Irish Stock created in 1787, and had been from time to time augmented to the sum of 14,600,0001. ; the whole amount of these stocks is 249,600,0001., or, in round numbers, nearly the amount I at first stated. Now it might, certainly, have been legally correct to have dealt separately with these sepa rate branches of the Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock ; but I conceived that this course, though legally correct, would be essentially unjust. I thought it would not be be coming in a great country like this to take advantage of one or two particular branches of stock being of small amount, and to call on the proprietors who have invested their money in these funds to submit to a re duction, which, from their being small in num ber, they could not resist. I have, therefore, recommended that the same rule should be applied to all these stocks, and that the reduction of interest shall be made at once upon the whole of them. With respect to these stocks, there is "some dif ference in the circumstances in which they stand. Three of them are absolutely at the disposal of Parliament, to deal with as it thinks fit ; but one of them, the Three-and-a-Half per Cents. of 1818; stands in a different situation. When that stock was created, the holders received a security that their interest should be paid them till 1829; that they should have six months' notice before any reduction of interest, or redemption of stock took place ; and, thirdly, that they should not be paid off in sums of less than 500,0001. at a time. In any arrangement which may be entered into, I am sure that the House will go along with me when I de clare, that we ought to adhere to every engage ment into which we have entered, and to give to the holders of that stock every advantage to which they are entitled under the provisions of the statute.—(Cheers.) We are bound to adhere to the strict letter of our agreement with them.—(Cheers.) If we look for precedents as to the manner in which this conversion may be brought about, we shall find that at various times different plans have been adopted under similar circumstances. In some cases advantages have been given to the holders of the higher stock, in order to induce them to accept of an amount in the lower stock in the place of that which they held iu the higher. These advantages have been of a different nature. In some cases a pecuniary bonus has been proposed to the holders of the higher stock, thus augmenting the actual amount of the debt while it diminished the interest of it. In other cases an en gagement has been entered into with the holders of the higher stock, that no further reduction of interest should take place until after a given time. The House must be aware that many plans have been proposed in the differ ent organs of public opinion, for the purpose of effecting the reduction which I now propose to accomplish, and each of these plans has its peculiar advantages and dis advantages. The House will agree with me, however, think, in being of opinion that all these plans resolve themselves into three cases, which are open for our adop tion. The first case is to give to every holder of Three and-a-Half per Cent. Stock as equal amount in the Three per Cent. Stock, thus adding to the capital of the debt. The second plan is to create a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock for the holders of every 1001. Three-and a-Half per Cent. Stock, and give them such an amount of the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock as would give them an increase of 3 per cent. upon the capital they have already invested in the Three and-a-Half per Cents. The third plan is to reduce the Three-and-a-Half per Cents. to Three -and-a-Quarter per Cents. The object of all these plans being to effect a reduction of the in terest at present payable on the debt from 3i per cent. tbi 3 per cent. It is impossible to deny but that each of these plans has its peculiar advantage, and no doubt each plan will find its advocates; but I think, before I state the plan which I propose that the House should adopt, it would be well that I should lay down the principles which I have adopted in review ing the several plans to which I have alluded. I think it my duty, as the agent of the public debtor, to secure the public credit with the greatest possible ad vantages, consistent with a due regard for the interests of the State. My first duty is to the public, whose ser vant I am but I feel that it is perfectly possible to recon concile that duty with the regard that is due to the in terests of individuals who lend their money. I do not think it would be just to purchase great advantages at the expense of burdening those who will come after us. With respect to debts incurred in time of war, it is perfectly fair and legitimate that posterity should bear a share of those burdens by which the empire was extended or its existence preserved. But to incur an additional debt in time of peace, and to throw *that burden on those who come after us, with a view that we may obtain great present advantages, for the purpose of relieving ourselves, is a course which I need not say I reprobate, because I am sure itmust be universally disagreeable to all who consult the true interests of the country. But, Sir, I have to call upon the House to adopt a course which, I trust, I will be able to satisfy them of the propriety of pursuing. It must be obvious to the House that if the Three-and-a-Half per Cents. were, reduced to Three per Cents., by giving an amount of Consols, it would be ne cessary in the operation to do what was done in 1822 to give a bonus on the Three per Cents., for the purpose of insuring operation. Considering the present price of the Funds, and the necessity of endeavouring to secure a conversion, the country would be obliged to submit to ad ditional capital of fr0m . 10,000,0001. to 12,000,0001. of debt, though the immediate result would be a saving to the pub lic of between 800,000/. and 900,000/. - On the principle laid down of saving we are not justified by adding to the mass of debt, though the immediate result of the saving to the public would be between 800,0001. and9oo,oool. For however at the present moment some gentlemen might think it a matter of indiffence to what amount our debt was extended, being, as it was, 700,000,000/.. yet still the future condition of the country should be looked to; and when, if we were engaged in wars, the debt which we now recklessly contracted might become a ruinous burden, and detrimental to the best interests of the country. Sir, the other plan remains to be considered, which is to reduce the Three-and-a-Half per Cents. through the medium of a Three-and-a-Quarter per Cent. Stock. The result of that arrangement undoubtedly will, in the first instance, be a diminished annual saving to the public; but against that is to be set the fact that there will be no increase of capital; and there will be, moreover, this additional advantage, that by the arrange ment I shall propose to the House, there will be a future further reduction. which will give in due time an increased advantage in point of annual income, an increased ad vantage so much the more valuable, because though it may not be brought to apply so immediately to the re sources of the country, the country will receive the full value of the whole reduction, without any countervailing disadvantage. The plan, therefore, which I shall pro pose to the House will be this :—" That every holder of Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock shall receive a like amount of Three-and-a-Quarter per Cent. Stock, on which interest at the rate of three-and-a-quarter per cent. per annum shall be paid until the 10th of October, 1854 ;" giving ten years during which the three-and-a-quarter per cent. will be payable upon the stock in question. I shall further propose, " That from and after the date of October, 1854, the interest to be paid shalt be at the rate ef • three per cent. only, and that this stock," sosbeing at the rate of three per cent., "shall be gua ranteed against any further reduction for twenty years after that period." This stock, therefore, will remain at three-and a-quarter per cent. until October, 1854 ; it will remain at three per cent. until 1874, whatever may be the improvement in the finances of the country, or whatever may be the reduction applied to other portions of the national debt.—(Marks of surprise, followed by laughter, on the Opposition benches, in the midst of which several Hon. Members rose and left the House.) I hardly expected any further attention.—(Laughter.) The arrangements must be made in the mode in which all similar arrgigemeuts have been wade before, by allowing all persons a limited time to express their dissent from the terms offered. With respect to that branch of the stocks which was created in 1814, I shall proceed as has been always customary, and I shall call on the House to resolve, that the holders shall be paid off. The periods which I propose to fix upon are— the 23d of March, for those in England ; the 22d of Oc tober, for those in Europe ; and the Ist of February, 1845, for those out of Europe. Under this arrangement —if I should succeed in carrying it into effect—the im mediate saving to the public, from the 10th of October will be, 625,000/. a year—and in the year 1854, when the second reduction will take place, there will be a saving of 625,0001. more. This gain will be effected without any disturbance of the public credit—without nny tion of the capital • of the country—or any embarrass ments of commercial dealings. The relief to the country will be more certain than could be obtained by any at tempt to grasp at immediate advantages, by throwing a portion of the public burdens upon the public creditor. I trust that I have clearly explained the principles on which I intend to act. There is, however, another important point connected with this arrangement, which I think it necessary to explain to the House. It is well-known to those who have paid attention to the finances of the country, ;that hitherto considerable in• convenience has been occasioned in respect to currency and credit on account of the great inequality in the pay ments of the interest of the debt in different quarters of the year. At the present moment the amount of the debt on which the interest is required to be paid in the quarters ending January and July, is 534,000,000/, whereas the amount of debt on which the interest is paid in April and October is 216,000,000/. This in equality necessarily produced great fluctuations in the monetary affairs of the country. I therefore think it my duty to take the opportunity of equalising the pay ment of the dividends, so that on each occasion the de mand for money may be about the same amount. And for this reason I propose that the dividends on all the new stock shall be 'paid only in April and in October. Those who have hitherto been paid up to October will have their half-year to receive in October next. Those who have usually been paid in January will have only one quarter in October ; so that all the new debt may start from the 10th of October next. After wards there will be two equal divisions of payment, which, in my opinion, will tend materially to the advan tage and interest of the country.—(Hear, hear.) I know not that it is necessary for me to say any more. If it be my happiness to carry this measure successfully through, it will be one of the most gratifying circum stances in my life to be able to reflect that, on two seve ral occasions—in the year 1830 and in the present year recommended to Parliament a measure with respect to a reduction in our annual burdens, which cannot but meet with the approbation of the country it is so well calculated to benefit and to relieve. But however great my gratification on this ground, there is still a higher gratification which I feel, both as a Minister and an Englishman, that this measure affords an irre fragible proof of the resources of this coun try, and that, with reference to other coun tries; it shows the mighty advantages which ever attend a sacred regard to the obligations of national honour and good faith.—(Loud cheers.) We h ave h a d in our time to struggle with great difficulties—we have had many arduous contests, many bitter revers es t o con tend against—. difficulties which have made the strongest minds to quail—but we have overcome and triumphed over them all, and that by a simple, but sacred, adhe rence to the principles of national honour and the obli gations of public faith.—(Hear.) Mr. BLEWITT then rose to address the House, but was met with loud cries of " Order, order.") Mr. GREENE, the Chairman of the Committee of Sup ply, then read the resolutions from the table. Mr. F. BARING said it gave him much pleasure to be able to state that he had heard the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman with the greatest satisfaction.—(Hear, hear.) He should be very sorry if any difference of opinion prevented him from expressing his approval of a plan so advantageous to the country. He spoke only of the principle of the plan ; whether the terms were ade quate to carrying out that principle remained between the holder of the stock and the Right Hon. Gentleman. With respect to the plan itself, he thought it was one beneficial in many respects.— (Hear, hear.) First, it had this great advantage, that it did not create any ad dition to the debt ; that was in itself a very great ad vantage. He thought also it was a very honest plan for a Chancellor of the Exchequer to propose.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman might have made the reduction of the interest immediate ; and this advantage was no slight one to a Chancellor of the Ex chequer.—(Cheers.) There was also another advan tage as far as private individuals were concerned ; he be lieved the interest was to be reduced one quarter per cent. at once, with a probability of a reduction of one quarter per cent. more at a future time ; they thus reduvd the incomes of private individuals in the least incolvenient way possible. On another thing he could not help expressing the utmost satisfaction ; the plan would not only be an advantage to ourselves, but would give to others a practical lesson that honesty and good faith, even under the greatest difficulties, had their pecuniary advantages, as well as the benefit to be derived from the good opinion of the world at large.—(Cheers.) He could only say, in sitting down, that he wished the most hearty success to the Right Hon. Gentleman' s scheme.•—(Loud cheers, particularly from the Ministe rial benches.) Sir JOHN RAE REID said nothing had ever given him greater pleasure than the manner in which this question had been received. He thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite for the liberal and handsome manner in which he had spoken. He felt that feeling would be general in that House, and he was sure that the holders of Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock would be highly gratified—(Cheers and laughter)—at the manner in which the plan had been proposed. Under all the circumstances, he thought it was most liberal, and he had no hesitation in stating his firm belief that it would be almost generally and entirely acceptable. He had been accused on a former occasion of having been too sanguine. --(A laugh.) A late Chancellor of the Exchequer,who was now a Member of another House, had accused him of having made use of a metaphor.—(A laugh.) He (Sir J. R. Reid) had stated that the dis tress was merely a passing cloud.—(A laugh.) He now saw before them a bright star, and he hoped they would soon feel its influence—(Loud laughter)—and its influ ence would be felt—(Continued laughter)—and they would go before it with prosperity and success.--(Roars of laughter.) Mr. P. M. STEWART thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had exercised a very sound judgment in proposing the plan which he had submitted to the House. He had also shown no inconsiderable portion of self-denial. The present holders of stock had been sub jected to a less reduction than they would have been subjected to under any other scheme which could have been proposed. There was one portion of the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, however, against which he must enter his protest. The Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the manner in which the Four per Cents. had been reduced by Lord Ripon at the time that he was Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Right Hon. Gentleman should recol lect the statements which had been made by Lord Ripon on that occasion, and which had procured for him the name of " Prosperity Robinson." He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would not be misled by appearances. No doubt there was a great deal of money in the market, and in consequence of its plenty, the Right Hon Gen tleman had been able to make his present arrangements, but that arose from the valueless state of money in this country at present. Trade in general was in a state of the greatest stagnation ; and hence the rush of unemployed money to the public funds, w hi c h had raised th e price and enabled the Honour able Gentleman to propose his present plan; but he warned the Right Hon. Gentleman against believing that the country was in a prosperous state. A revival of trade was much needed, and the present superabund ance of money was no sign of prosperity. He highly approved of the proposal of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, as he considered it would not only conduce to the profit of the country, but that by its adoption the character and credit of the country, which were still more valuable, would be materially strengthened.—(Cheers.) Sir J. EASTHOPE expressed his admiration of the plan which had been proposed to the House. A more just, a more simple, or a more certain plan, could not have been devised.—(Hear, hear.) Whether he regarded the justice of the plan, in reference to the money market, its simplicity, as being' divested of all kinds of com plexity, or the certainty of its meeting with general ac ceptance in the country, he thought the plan equally en titled to admiration.—(Cheers.) This was one of those occasions on which party feeling should subside—(Hear, hear)—and he congratulated the House and the Right Hon. Gentleman on the general concurrence which the measure was likely to receive. Mr. W. WILLIAMS felt great pleasure in expressing his unqualified approbation of the plan which had just been submitted to the House.--(Laughter and cheers.) He thought the plan'was liberal, in the present state of the money market, to the holders of Three-and-a-Half per Cents. He regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not proposed to reduce the interest on Exchequer Bills to lid. instead of lid. per day. There had been other periods of abundance of money which were as transitory as he feared this was likely to be. Prices would soon rise, the exchanges would turn against us, and the state of things would be reversed. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON believed that the unusual abundance of money was occasioned by the distrust of the British public in foreign securities, especially North American. He expressed his grateful acknowledgments to the Government for the alterations introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he thought the holders of Three-and-a-Half per Cents. would be much better off than they had anticipated. He thought the Right lion. Genthanah had exercised a sound discretion in reducing the Three-and-a-Half per Cents. one-fourth. Mr. HAWES felt happy in. expressing his satisfaction at the proposition of the Government. With regard to the equalization of the dividends, which were so inti mately connected with the financial affairs of this coun try, he thought the arrangement was one of great practical importance. He hoped the Right Hon. Gen tleman fully appreciated the absence of anything like partyfeeling on that side of the House. When the Go vernment introduced measures of sound, practical utility,_ they might depend upon it that Hon. Gen tlemen on his side of the House would give them their entire support. He (Mr. Hawes) would on certain questions avow himself and act as a party man; but when any great public measure was introduced, party consi derations must at once give way to the promotion of the country's welfare.—(Hear.) Mr. WARBURTON thoroughly agreed in the com mendation which had been bestowed on the proposition of the Government, but at the same time, it should not be forgotten that it was the low rate of profits w hi c h enabled Ministers to make this proposition•, and the low rate of profits was, if there were any faith to be placed in the opinions of Mr. Ricardo or Mr. Malthus, attri butable to the corn-laws. Mr. RICARDO congratulated the Right Hon. Gen tleman on the plan he had laid before the Reuse. He did not ,however, think that the proposal was as favour able to the public creditor as had been generally ex pected. He did not mean to Eay that the present plan might not be carried out; he hoped it might, but there would be great difficulties in working it. He would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman how he proposed to levy the income-tax on annuities for ten years, and on per manent annuities? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, of course the income tax would be levied on all species of incomes. lie could not sit down without expressing his thanks to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, in particular, and to Hon. Members opposite, for the very kind manner in which they had received his proposition. They had laid aside party warfare, which was at times essential to the inte rests of the country, but the absence of it on a matter like this must have a very beneficial effect in enlisting public confidence in favour of the arrangements, and be materially conducive to the public welfare. Mr. BLEWITT inquired if there were any contract between the Bank of England and the Government, to the effect that the Bank should pay- off the dissentients. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Cer tainIy not.--The resolutions were then agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed a resolution embodying the provisions of former Acts of Parliament for paying off the dissentients.—Agreed to. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the House resumed. GRIEVANCES OF THE PEOPLE. On the question that the House do resolve itself into a Committeee of Supply, Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose for the purpose of pre senting several petitions, complaining that the House did not fairly represent the opinions of the people, and that they were not adequate to the voting away of the pub lic money. The Hon. Member presented retitions to this effect from Aberdeen, and from the inhabitants of Bridport, and other places. RELATIONS WITH BUENOS AYRES AND MONTE VIDEO. Mr. EWART wished to bring under the consideration of the House the importance of our commercial relations with the River Plate, especially with reference to the war now raging between the States of Buenos Ayres and Monte Video. It was most important that the House should take the condition of this immense tract of country under their most earnest consideration. The capabilities of that country were very great ; its mines of tin were most prolific; and its produce of cotton and wool very considerable. They had recently had experience that the article of wool now imported from the districts of Rio de la Plata was of a very improving character and greatly in do mand. The wool from Germany ranked in the first class amongst the hest judges of it in this country; that of New South Wales in the second class; and thirdly came the wool from Buenos Ayres. The cotton trade, however, claimed the greatest share of our consideration, and for this reason he presumed it was that his Hon. Friend, the Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson), had been requested to pay attention to this subject, as he (Mr. Ewart) had been by many of his former consti tuents, merchants and others of Liverpool. Our exports in 1841 to the river Plate amounted very nearly to one million, and rather more than one-half of that was in the article of cotton goods. With regard to woollen goods, the same returns gave the exports fir the same year, 1841, at about 200,000/., and there had also been a consider able export of linen and other goods. Turning from our own exports to the imports of that country, he found that in 1830 we had imported 30,0001b5. of wool, but at the present epoch we had imported no less than five millions of pounds of that article. Having stated the importance of the trade of that part of the world, he now came to what he might call the diplomatic part of the question. He had upon this subject received com plaints of various sorts. It was thought that in conse quence of the suspension of commerce which had been caused by the hostilities between Buenos Ayres and Monte Video, that France and England would have in terposed to put an end to such a state of things. It was within his own knowledge, that a great part of those persons who had been previously advantageously employed in supplying those articles which were sent in return for our goods had been compelled to enlist in the army of Rozas. He was sorry to say there had been very strong complaints made of the conduct of our Minister out there ; but on that occasion he would no further refer to it. It had been stated that our Minis ter had been more favourable to Buenos Ayres than to Monte Video, but he trusted there was no ground for that statement. Our naval commander, on the other hand, was said to be more favourable to Monte Video than to Buenos Ayres ; and thus it appeared that they did not pull together. Again, it was sa id t h e F renc h commander had taken a different view of things to the English commander. It was from a hope that some course might be taken to bring about a general harmony between the two Governments, by the united efforts of England and France, that he now ventured to make this appeal to the Right Honourable Baronet oppo site (Sir Robert Peel). Whether justice was on the side of Buenos .Ayres, or of Monte Video, it was not for him (Mr. Ewart) to state. His sole object was the restoration of peace, and the return to the peaceful pursuits of industry and commerce—(Hear, hear, from Sir R. Peel)—which might redound to the interests, not only of those two now hostile countries, but to this country and to the world. He admitted freely that the general policy of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) was a policy of peace, and he for one, as an independent Member of that House, would ever sup port him, or any other Minister, in , that policy, so long as to do so was consistent with our honour and dignity. —(Hear, hear.) He did not believe that the Right Hon. Baronet would consent to anything which wonld com promise our national honour, nor submit to any unjust or tyrannical exclusion of our commerce. He trusted, therefore, he would be enabled, in unison with that great and high-minded man at the head of the councils of France—and whom, he thought, no one could look upon without admiration and regard—to arrive at some common understanding, by which hostilities might be stopped between Buenos Ayres and Monte Video, and the peaceful relations and peaceful pursuits of all countries be restored. France was as much interested in this question as England, and as there was a common object to be attained, he trusted there would be a common combination between the Governments of the two coun tries, to effect it. It was with these views, and in this hope, he now begged to ask the Right lion. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) if he could communicate to the House any information upon this most important and interest ing subject.—(Hear, hear.) Sir ROBERT PEEL said, in the first place, he would express the very great satisfaction with which he had heard the observations which had fallen from the Hon. Member, in the concluding portion of his address, with respect to his determination, although opposed in his general politics to him (Sir R. Peel), to put a liberal construction upon every act of the Executive which had ' for its object the continuance of amicable relations with France. The Hon. Member might depend upon it, that no compromise of the honour of this country would take place, and that lie and his friends around him were by such eonduct as lie had avowed his intention to pursue thus greatly strengthening the hands of the Government, instead of pursuing that petty course adopted by others of stigmatising every measure of fair ness and conciliation as a mean subserviency to France. He wished that a similar honourable feeling which had been declared that evening would be pursued in another place, where the man, whose only desire was to main tain the honour of his own country, and respect the rights of others, had every unfair and ungenerous ob stacle thrown in his path. He sincerely believed that the Ministry of France were influenced by precisely the same motives as the Government of England, convinced that they might have every reciprocal advantage, en courage arts, promote industry; extend commerce, and contribute to thegeneral civilisation and happiness of the world ; and that this good understanding, and , these good offices were to be secured consistently with the most absolute independence on both sides, and with the most scrupulous regard to the honour and character of each of them.—(Hear, hear.) He avowed there that such was the principle he wished to act upon towards France, and he would fearlessly express his opinion that the same liberal and enlightened spirit characterised the conduct of France towards this country.--(Hear, hear.) He (Sir R. Peel) fully agreed with the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ewart) in respect to the consequences of the lamentable state of things arising out of this war between Buenos Ayres and Monte Video. Look at the Rio Plata—it was the great outlet of the vast southern coast of that great country. It was the channel by which the produce of all that country must be brought to Europe, and by which our own goods must be introduced into that country. And, therefore, he granted that nothing could be more vexa tious or injurious to the commercial interests of this country than the continuance in that quarter of the present state of things. The complaint, too, was of no ordinary character, and had originated in no ordinary cause. It wa s a conflict of mere personal passions and personal inte rests, and this at the expense of the peace and happiness of the two countries themselves, and greatly to the de triment of all others who might have connexion with them.—(Hear, hear.) But the lion. Member (Mr. Ewart) must recollect in what a delicate position this Government was placed, and how he (Sir R. Peel) might forfeit his character as a Minister of peace if he interfered too vigorously to bring hostilities to a close. Now, lie begged to say that the Government, of which he had the honour to be the head, had done everything short of an armed intervention for putting an end to hostilities between Buenos Ayres and Monte Video.- -(Hear, hear.) The English Government first offered its good offices singly, and afterwards, with France, offered a joint mediation. This offer was accepted by Monte Video, and rejected by Buenos Ayres. No effort to bring about a better state of things had been left un tried by this country ; and he feared it would not be wise for this country, certainly not singly, to interfere by force of arms. He very much doubted if a tranquillity brought about by such means would be effec tual. Whether it might be advisable for the Powers most interested in the peace of this quarter of the globe to interfere by armed intervention —a s in the case of Greece—to bring matters to a termination, was, per haps, not wholly undeserving of consideration. With respect to the conduct pursued by the British authori ties out there, they lamented greatly the state of things, and were disgusted at what they witnessed; and it might be possible that, in their zeal, they had gone a little too far. But if they had, it was from the best of all mo tives—a sincere desire to do all they could to put an end to the very unhappy and injurious state of things then existing on the Rio Plata. He trusted, however—and from what had recently come to his knowledge he had reason to hope—that the 'present state of things would soon be altered ; and that whichever party was victo rious would pursue such a policy as would heal the wounds of the past, contribute to the revival of trade and commerce, and therefore to the happiness and prosperity of the world.—(Hear, hear.) The conversation then dropped. 1 The Ord( le Jer of the Day for going into the Committee of Supply having been again read, Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD said he would only de tain the House for one moment, whilst he expressed his inten tion not further to persevere in his efforts to stop the grant of supplies until the grievances of the people had been redressed. He had persevered as far as he could ; but in ceasing to perse vere he wished it to he understood that he protested against the competency of that House to make laws so long as the great body of the people were unrepresented in it. He admitted he was not backed by a sufficient power of public opinion to make it desirable for him to continue his efforts ; but he wished it to be understood that whenever that power of opinion should, in his judgment, be sufficient, he should renew his endeavour!. With this protest he should not further attempt to hinder the House going on with those supplies which the exigencies of the public service were said to require. —( Hear, hear.) The House then went into the Committee of Supply. ARMY ESTIMATES. The first vote was for 158,2311. for defraying the charge of the General and Staff officers in Great Britain and Ireland, and foreign stations, except India, which was agreed to with out any discussion. The neat vote was for 90,30 i/. for charges of- allowance of officers of the several public military establishments of Great Britain. Mr. WILLIAMS complained of the charge for the COM.. mander-in-Chief and his Staff being increased upwards of 2,000/. for the present year. He wanted to know why the present Commander-in-Chief was allowed so much more than the last. Lord Hill, as Commander-in-Chief, received 9/. 9s. gd. a-day, while the present Commander-in-Chief re ceived 16/. 83. 9d. a-day. Sir H. HARDINGE said that the reason of the difference was this, the one was a Field-Marshal, while the other was only a Lieutenant-General. After some short discussion the vote was agreed to, as were also the following votes :- 13,408/. to defray the charge of the Royal Military College, and the Hibernian School. 88,076/. for the volunteer corps. 1,649/. for the unprovided service of former years. 13,9531. to defray the charges fer the reward of distinguished services. 27,000/. to defray the charge of general officers. The next vote proposed was for a sum of 62,300/. for defray. ing the allowances of retired officers. - Colonel RAWDON wished to know whether there would be any objection to permitting officers to retire on a superior rank, with the allowances only of the rank which they then held ? Sir HENRY HARDINGE thought there would be serious objections to such a proposal. For instance, an officer, with the half-pay of a colonel, would have to support the rank of $ general officer.—The vote was then agreed to. The next vote proposed was for 450,3001. for half-pay mill• tart'• allowances. Colonel RAWDON suggested that the sums retained for the support of officers in hospitals, suffering from mental aberration, should, when they were dismissed from hospital, be returned to them with interest. Sir H. HARDINGE could not agree to the proposition. Dr. BOWRING said that 2,813/. vras stated to Le the atm arising from the sale of commissions. Was that the only suns received by the Government from that source? Sir H. HARDINGE said that it was. Mr. W. WILLIAAIS, in allusion to what had been stated by the Secretary at War as to the saving effected in the half pay, would observe that in 1622 the total expense of the army was 3,782,000/., and this year it was 2,201,000/. He thought a much larger saving might have been effected in the half-pay. Sir H. HARDINGE said that in 1822 there were 9,744 officers on half-pay, combatants and non-combatants, and the vote for half-fay for the year amounted to 807,811/. ; this year the number of officers on half-pay was 4,032, and the half-pay amounted to 450,0001., thus showing a diminution in the number of officers of 5,709, and in the amount of half. pay of 420,828/. He should be very happy to grant the Hon. Gentleman any returns on the subject he might wish. Sir C. NAPIER said the Gallant General had given them a pretty specimen of the mortality in the service, yet his Hon. Friend did not seem to think they died fast enough. Mr. WILLIAMS hoped that the returns would show the number of officers on half-pay in 1818, as well as in 1822. Colonel RA WDON thought the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman must have misunderstood the question which he had put just now. He had meant to ask, if there would be any ob jection to allowing officers who had sold out to retain the rank which they held on quitting the service ? Sir HENRY HARDINGE said the subject had been con sidered by the Naval and Military Commission, and they had decided that it would not be proper to grant such permission, except in very extraordinary cases. The vote was then agreed to. The next vote of 4,9321. for the half-pay and pensions of fo reign officers, and for the allowance to the widows and children of foreign officers, was agreed to without discussion. The next vote proposed was for a sum of 141,6101., for pen sions to officers' widows. Lord HO WICK wished to ask for some explanation respect. ing the refusal of the pension to the widow of Colonel Fawcett, on the ground that her husband had fallen in a duel? Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that the Gallant Ofleer opposite had given notice of a motion on the subject for Mon day, and he thought that the discussion had better be postponed until that evening. He would, however, go on if the Gallant Officer wished to take the discussion now. Captain BE RNA L—No. Sir HENRY HARDINGE would content himself with stating that he did not think that the circumstances of the duel were such as to justify him in recommending the widow to her Majesty for a pension, and his Right Hon. Friend, with who= he had consulted, agreed with him in opinion. Captain BERNAL—Had postponed his motion till Monday, at the request of several Hon. and Gallant Members. He brought it forward as a distinct motion, because he doubted whether the subject would meet with so much attention as it deserved, if it were only discussed incidental) , in Committees of Supply. Lord HOWICK could not agree to this vote without some explanation on the subject. He objected to a motion such as thatof which the Hon. and Gallant Member had given notice, on the question being put that the Speaker do leave the Chair, con sidering as he did that it was interfering with the progress of public business. It was more constitutional and Parliamentary to discuss such a question in Committee of Supply, unless they were prepared to take the strong step of addressing the Crown on the subject of granting the pension to Mrs. Fawcett, a course which he for one was not disposed to recommend. He could not let the present vote pass without making some observe tion on the subject of the refusal of the pension. If the Go vernment were prepared seriously to take up the question of duelling and to do all in their power to discourage and put down that unchristian and improper practice, then be should acquiesce in the necessity, however painful, of refusing the pen. sion to Mrs. Fawcett. But if the Government were not pre pared so to deal with the general question, then the refusal of the pension to the widow of Colonel Fawcett was an act of great cruelty and injustice.—(Cheers.) Was it not manifest that officers were frequently punished for refusing to go out to fight a duel? Less than a year ago an officer had been sen tenced to be suspended from rank and pay upon the finding of a court-martial for not taking steps to obtain immediate re , dress for a gross outrage which had been offered to him. He knew that he should be told that the redress meant was that which could be obtained by applying at the Horse Guards. But he would say boldly that that was a mere eva sion.--( Cheers.) They all knew that the real redress was that which was called demanding satisfaction.—(Cheers.) He would ask the Judge-Advocate if a sentence of a court-martial had not been submitted to him without that evasion, in which an officer had been sentenced to punishment for declining to fight a duel. The Right Hon. Gentleman had felt that a sentence in that shape was illegal, and could not be allowed to pass ; but the fact of such a charge having been enter• tained by a court-martial, proved that what was really ex pected of an officer was—not that he should appeal to the Horse Guards, but that he should take redress into his own hands.—(Hear, hear.) If such things were allowed to go en in the army, and no more effectual measures were adopted to put down duelling, it would be the height of injustice to re fuse to the widow of an officer, who had fallen in a duel, her pension. They might talk of the difficulty of legislation on the subject, but it was in the power of the Government to prevent duelling in the army without any legislative measure whatever. Let them make known in an authoritative manner that the present system should not be permitted to continue. Let them call upon all officers who had received an insult to submit their case to some superior authority. Le, a Court of Inquiry be assembled to consider each case, and having ascertained the merits of it, let them exercise the pre rogative of the Crown by pronouncing the dismissal of the guilty party. Let them give ample peens fbr punishing per sons who were guilty of insults, which, under present circum. stances, must lead to a duel. He would also have it made known that in every case in which officers had recourse to duelling, all the parties concerned, both principals and seconds, should he dismissed the service. By these means they might put down the great evil of duelling in the army. He did not believe that it was impossible to put it down in the community generally. The first thing required was to mitigate the undue severity of the existing law. The killing a man in a duel, although nominally a great crime, was a crime of a different nature from that of murder, and required a different punishment. And it was on account of the undue severity of the punishment inflicted by law, that the law was not enforced. Let there be a moderate and just punishment inflicted by law upon those who engaged in duels, and let that law be uniformly and impartially enforced. Another step, which should be adopted to do away with the necessity of duelling, was to give to persons who had been in sulted some means of obtaining proper redress from the legal tribunals of the country. He did not think there would be difficulty in framing some law that would enable any person who might be insulted to obtain redress proportionate to that insult in a court of law. As he said before, there were two courses open to her Majesty's Government—either they might allow things to remain as they had hitherto been; and if they did—if they would shut their eyes to the practice of duelling, and do nothing snore than connive at its existence, then they ought to grant the pension to Mrs. Fawcett. The other course was, that they should set themselves seriously to work to put down the practice altogether—not to look over a case of duelling, whoever might be the parties concerned. They could not forget the case lately of a person in a high and distinguished station—a station which made the offence infinitely more aggravated than it could be in a military officer. In that most remarkable case, he thought that the high authentic, before whom it had been brought had acted improperly. The Go vernment had passed over that offence, which had attracted so much notice, as one of the most venal crimes—in such con. duct there was no consistency. One line or the other ought to be adopted ; they ought to act impartially against all offenders ; or, if not, they ought not to be guilty of what he must consider the cruelty and injustice of refusing to the widow of one of the unfortunate victims of this most unhappy system the pension which, it was very possible, her circum stances might render most particularly necessary. Captain BERNAL did not consider himself open to the lec ture which the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland had thought fit to read him on constitutional law. He had con• sulted other gentlemen, who were as competent to give an opinion as the Noble Lord, upon the course he had adopted, and nothing had fallen from the Noble Lord in the course of his speech which would hinder him from moving, on going into the Committee of Supply, the special notice of the House to the case of Mrs. Fawcett. Sir H. HARDINGE said the speech of the Noble Lord way not characterised by his usual fairness. The Noble Lord knew that the case of the unfortunate lady was to be brought forward on Monday, and yet he now took occasion to discuss the entire question of military discipline, notwithstanding theopportunity which he would have of discussing the subject on Monday. This was a vote for the pensions of widows. After he (Sir H. Hardinge) had stated the grounds upon upon which he refused the pension, he thought if the Noble Lord took a different view from that of the Gallant Officer, it would have been mores!? propriate if he consented to postpone his observations till:he Gallant Officer's motion was before the House. With regudt other parts of the Noble Lord's speech, viz., that officers in the y army were expected to fight their way out of any difficulty b duelling, and that that practice was connived at by individua l at the head of the army, he must give the Noble Lori, notwithstanding his having been so long Secretary-at- War, the strongest contradiction. He did not believe that the statement of the Noble Lord was borne out by facts. He was confident the Noble Lord could not produce any cue where any officer was brought to a court-martial and cashiered, for not having fought a duel in consequence of an insult offered to him. Officers, by the Articles of War, were liable to be cashiered for fighting a duel. It was stated in one of the Articles of War, that any officer who should give, send, or pro mote a challenge, or accuse an officer of disgrace for refusing e challenge, amid be brought to a court-martial, and be SUPPLY.