The Sun. — London, England, 1839-02-15 00:00:00

THE PEOPLE'S CHARTER. Last night a meeting of the friends of the Charter was held in Clerkenwell-green. A van was drawn up close by the gas lamp in the middle of the green, from which the speakers addressed the meeting. The hour named for taking the chair was seven o'clock, by which time there were upwards of 1,000 people assembled, and the numbers were much increased during the progress of the sleeting. About twenty minutes after seven the committee arrived, and upon the motion of Mr. Vincent, . . Bailie Casio, of Kilmarnock, was called upon to preside, having been kindly requested to keep on his hat, he said he came from the land of the mountain and the flood, where the people went with out hat and without shoes without feeling any inconvenience. He would be ashamed to address them with his hat on. He was a delegate from one of the outposts of the empire—his constituents had sent him to London for the purpose of assisting to crush the tyranny which had bowed down the working-men for centuries. He was delegated by the industrious classes of Ayr, who had long felt the degraded position in which they were placed— they felt themselves to be slaves, and not freemen. They had no share in the making of those laws ; they were expected to obey : but they were resolved, if possible, to have a Parliament of their own choosing, in order that the industrious classes should have full remuneration for their hardships and toils. All the Radicals of Scotland wanted was fair play and no favour. The people of the metropolis had on many occasions obtained great boons, and had done much for the cause of freedom ; he called upon them to come forward now, in a most important crisis, and support the People's Convention, whose whole endeavours were directed to obtain the People's Charter. He would not further• detain them, as they would have an opportunity of hearing a number of the Mem. bers of the People's Parliament, and then they would be able to judge of the talent . ; they were able to bring forth in the People's cause. He would first call upon Mr. Coombe, who wou'd submit three different propositions in one resolution.—(Laughter.) Mr. CooMea then proposed the three resolutions. The first pledged the meeting to the support of the People's Charter and the National Petition, and not to relax in their effhrts until the principles contained in them were fully carried into effect. The second said the meeting having implicit confidence in the zeal, prudence, and honesty of the Members comprising the Convention, pledged itself to support them in their arduous labours, and to beguided by their advice in all matters relating to the Chart^r. The third pledged the meeting to promote the collodion of the Rent. He said the orking.men of London had often been blamed for their apathy upon this question, but the meeting held at White Couduil House last Monday evening proved that the feeling in favour f f the Charter was as strong in the metropolis as it was in the country— that meeting would show the Delegates now in town that the working population of London were quite alive to the importance of the subject, and the present !arge meeting would confirm the opinion. The Convention was now sitting, and for the express and only pur pose of adopting those measures which would bring prosperity to the working classes. It was said that they were desirous of bloodshed ; it was a eatumny put forth by their enemies ; they were determined to carry their Charter, but they were equally determined to carry it by moral means alone.—(Cheers.) There was, however, a limit to human patience, and he, speaking for himself, said that if the Government would not listen to the voice of suffering humanity, if they refused to hear the voice of the people, lie for one was pre. pared to die in the attempt to wrest the Charter fron. them.— (Cheers.) He did not believe that there was one working man who was not well acquainted with the absolute necessity for Uni. v.n sal Suffrage; if there was one, it would be utterly useless i with him, fur the matter was as plain as it possibly What was not properly the time for speaking, but for agitaticn and action. He would therefore no longer detain them, but move the resolution, and make may fcr the seconder. Mr. l'Aniccn had much pleasure in seconding the resolution. He entirely agreed with every proposition it contained, and therefore he considered he was acting only in what was his bounden duty. If the people did not support the Convention, the Members of that body would be powerless. If the people supported them in an energetic and manly, spirit, the good they would do would be incalculable.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") That glorious meeting would give the lie to the reported apathy of the working men of London—they were now alive, and would never be quiet until they had obtained their rights. He would no longer detain them from what they must all be anxious to hear—the sentiments of the people's real tepresentaives. The C11.111131.1s begged to introduce one of the best little Radicals it had ever been his pleasure to know— could b.:, Ir. YlNCENT—(cheering). Thst meeting had assemble , ' for the purpose of informing the Government that the people would no longer continue to pay taxes over which they had no power —to tell the world that the present iniquitous system must cease, and that the people were determined to be fully and fairly represented. They were told that the people of London were but however just the reproach might have been it would he s no lon•cr: He would ask them did they not toil on hour after hour and hc.ur and week after week, and did they receive wages which math; them comfortable ?—(No, no.) Even out of the small pittance they did receive they were obliged to give a large portion to the ugly Tax-gatherer, who met them at the cort,er of every street. The poor, hard-working man was fleeced in order that lazy Lords and lazy Ladies might be kept up for no good—all wr.,.; swallowed up by the great drones, and the poor, hard. working man was left in as bad a condition as the people of any country tu the world. And all this rose—all this misery was heaped upon them because they they had no voice in the mant-gement of the affairs of the nation. He had no doubt it was very inconvenient to the 638 sleek-faced, mustachoed, white-gloved dandies in the House of Commons—very inconvenient to the 400 old women of Lords to sit and legislate for themselves and against the people— legislating, or pretending to legislate, upon matters the first prin . _ . . ciples of which they knew nothing about. Now the object of that meeting was to relieve them horn that inconvenience—to relieve them from so disagreeable a task, and to afford them time to employ themselves more appropriately at home, listening to the sweet strumming of my Lady Angelina.—(Laughter and cheers.) Would not the people whose all was at stake, whose very existence was concerned much better protect their interests, if they had a voice in the election of Members of Parliament ? If they had no right to be represented, what right had any other class to the privilege. To be sure they claimed the right upon the authority of law, but the right of man's subsistence, of his existence, was superior, and the question they had met to discuss involved no less a proposition than that. It was only the slavish submission of the people—it was the slavish education they recceived, which made them believe every lawn.sfeeved Bistiop a pious man—every - Peer an upright and good man, and every Member of Parlia.. ment an honest man, that made them tolerate such bondage. He had no confidence in either the House of Commons or the House of Lords. He had no confidence in the Crown. —(Loud cheering.) He had confideneu in none but the veov w._(chee,s) The Rouse of Commons had betrayed them — they must depend entirely upon themselves—they must meet day after day, and week after week; until they made London so warm, that little Jack Russell would go down to the House, and say, "Upon my word, I am as warm as a cat without cl aws ."—(L aug ht er .) . . That little Lord had taken it into his head to threaten Mr. Frost, one of the people's Delegates, because he attended public meetings and was a Member of the Convention. Little Jack Russell asked him if he had attended meetings at Bristol and elsewhere, but Mr. Frost spiritedly denied the right of the little man to put any such queries to him.-- (Cheers.) He went even a little farther than Mr. Frost, for he denied the right of any class or section to make laws to govern the whule. They had no right to investaLy exclusive class with the rower of the Suffrage, to the exclusion of auother. If theywanted t) have an exclusive Parliament for themselves, the people would have no objection, provided those who belonged to the exclusive class consented to pay the taxes themselves—(Cheer,). The people would have no objection provided they consented to keep their long nailed fingers out of their pockets. What were they after all ? how were the great except from the privilege they enjoyed of pilfering from the public—(Cheers). The plunderers were the makers of the law, and they did it after this fashion—they would send a man to prison for stealing a penny loaf to feed his hungry belly, while they honoured and applauded him who stole thousands of acres in the neighbourhood of Woburn (Loud cheers and laughter.) They wanted a Charter by which the interests of the great mass of of workinil men might be protected. The Peoples Charter would do so, and by the unity of the people it would become law. Let them by their conduct tell the Government that they wished to use legal means alone, but that if they dared to trample upon the right of the working men any longer, they would be beat. There was was no doubt there would be some attempt to bring back the days of Muir and Palmer, and the dungeons would be filled, but let the Government beware, for if so, every village would send forth its Tyler and every town its Hampden.—(Cheers.) He was anxious that the Government should set the good example, and then the people would go on quietly in their own way, and obtain all their desires by moral means alone. He wished to have the Charter established without its being stained with one drop of human blood. —(Cheers.) But the conflict had now begun, and it would never cea: e until the happiness of the people was secured.—(Cheers.) The spirit which animated the heart of Washington was now largely shed abroad in the hearts of the working men of England. He was perfectly convinced they would do their duty ; and with that con. viction strong upon his mind he would take leave of them by calling upon them to assemble in every district and parish, in order to strengthen the Convention—to work till the work was completed . , and until they had a meeting in St. James's or Hyde Park to celebrate their triumph.—(Loud cheering.) Mr. BURNS of Dundee next addressed the meeting. The want of Universal Suffrage was the cause of universal suffering. They were asking for nothing but what was strictly legal and constitu tionally just—all they asked for was, that they might have a voice i❑ the choice of those under whose controul their pockets were placed. If the present electors would undertake to pay the taxes, then the people would be very glad to allow them to do what they pleased in the election of Members, but the matter was very different, for the poor hard walking man was called upon to pay much more in proportion to. wards the profuse expenditure of the Government than their more wealthy and favoured fellow subjects were. Instead of contributing to the welfare of the nation the great landowners were in fact blood suckers.—(Cheers.) The apathy of the people of London arose from their being better off than their brethren in the country. but they must shake it off or the gradual reduction which was going on would most surely reach them. They had now a Pat-ha ir )t sitting, that in the place of attending to their domestic con. cerns, were losing their time in discussing our foreign relations--in fact, they would talk of any relations but poor relations.—(Laugh. ter.) The only notice they took of them was putting out their hands for all that those poor relations had got. Matters were in a most singular position, the leaders of the People were blamed for inciting them, but without fear of con tradiction he stated that had it not bean for the great exertions of those very men in stemming the torrent, the country would now ha v e been without either liberty or prosperity. Were the men of London determined to support their brethren in the country.— (Yes, yes.) They only asked to have a voice in the choice of those men who made the laws all were bound to obey, which was no very unreasonable demand. The working classes were the producers of all wealth—they were the men who paid for the Church, and even for the soldiers, who were to cut their throats when they were or dered. Let them work till they obtained their Charter, and then England would once more become the happiest nation in the world, and the admiration of the earth.—(Cheers.) Mr. SKEYINGTON, of Derby and Loughborough—He came from that part of the country where the people were obliged to take pota toes and salt one day and salt and potatoes the next by way of a change.— (Laughter.) His constituents had sent him to do all in his power to aid the cause of freedom. That Meeting was a display which gave the lie to all those who said the men of London were apathetic. They had been nobly roused, and would never cease until they had obtained their rights. Had it not been for the leaders of the present agitation, the people were so roused that the winter would not has e passed without many burnings, and even murders, being committed. The people were now roused, and were determined to have a fair day's pay for a good day's labour. He for one was prepared to shed his blood, if it should become necessary, in defence of the liberties of the people.—(Cheers.) Mr. COLLINS, of Birmingham, said his constituents had been the first to enter into the present agitation, and a glorious agitation it had led to. lle went to Scotland alone, and in that country he had seen the greatest triumph of public feeling that any man had ever uitnessed. The right arm of man had been conferred upon him, and all by the great Creator of the Universe, and any one who prevented him from using it in the way he found most conducive to his own interest, was a robber. When trade wasbad, the workman had to live, but to do so, he had to run into debt, and when trade was in what was called a prosperous state, the workman had still to live hard, and work hard, in order to get out of debt. There were about 26 millions of people in the country and we had machinery equal to the labour of 600 millions of men, and yet nine tenths of the working population were in a state bordering upon starvation. So bad were they off, that the poor man was often Prevented from sending his children to the Sunday-school, for want of decent clothing. Let them carry the Charter and all would be well, and a great revulsion would take place in the situa tion of the working men. The meeting was subsequently addressed by Mr. Deegan, the Delegate from Staley bridge, Mr. M•Dowall, from Ashton, and Dr. Taylor from Renfrewshire, but from the inconvenient pressure of persons who had ascended the waggon, not belonging to the Com mittee, it was impossib!e to hear them in such a manner as to be able to g i ve a faithful report of their uttered sentiments. Three cheers were given for the Convention. Three cheer t)r the Charter. Thinks were voted to the Chairman, who returned thanks, and the meeting quietly dispersed. HORRIBLE MURDER AND SUICIDE AT PADDINGTON. (Concluded from The Sun of yesterday.) The sister of the deceased, Lovett, stated that he had expressed great jealousy to her, on account of his wife having refused to tell him the number of the house where she was working at. He was jealous of a person named Southern or Souton, and had complained of the men whom he worked with " chaffing" him and worrying hisn so that he did not know what he was about; he ap peared to be very much excited. He used expressions which clearly showed that he was labouring under some strong delusion; wit ness had told him that she believed his wife was very fond of Mm, and that he ought net to think about such suspicions ; witness had observed a difference in his demeanour since he had the fall and the injury to his head. It was the opinion of the medical man that he could not stand much annoying, and that he should abstain from drinking; there being great danger of his becoming deranged; he had been, with witness almost every day for the last few weeks, and seemed ex ceedingly fidgetty and agitated ; his eyes at times almost starting oat of his head. Mr. William Phillpott, of Southwick-street, Paddington, surgeon, deposed that he was called in to the house where the deceased re sided ; and found them lying in bed together, on their backs; the man a little inclined to the right; their throats were cut in a violent manner, apparently with a razor. A razor was found under the bed on the floor, with blood upon it; it was quite in the centre of the floor under the bed; witness could not imagine how it came there unless the man after he had cut his throat had by a great effort thrown it under the bed; the deaths of both must have been almost instantaneous. There were no appear ances on the woman's hands to indicate that she could have committed the treed ; there was great probability that the man both killed the woman and himself; judging from the quantity of blood on his hands, particularly the right. The whole of the right arm was completely saturated with blood. He must have been over her in some position when he cut his wife's throat. He was outside the clothes, she was inside. She did not appear to have made the least movement or struggle. The whole scene conveyed to the witness's mind the perfect conviction that no other person but the man had committed the act. A man who was jealous, and who had received a severe injury on his head, might awake cud.. denly in the night, and in a fit of frenzy commit such a dreadful act, without being conscious of what he was about. In cases of mental derangement the excitement was always strongest against those who had been most beloved. The deaths must have occurred within an hour before they were discovered. In cases of undue excitement there was a low stage—a state of depression in which there was the most danger, and this accounted for so many murder: and suicides living committed at an early hour of the morning. And from the circumstances which had been detailed in evidence, witness should think that the state of the man's mind, operated upon by a feeling of jealousy, might easily have worked him up to a condition of absolute frenzy. Thomas Garratt, a fellow labourer s tsf the deceased man, deposed •hat for the last two months he had observed a great alteration in his appearance and conduct. He seemed often flurried, and did not speak to his companions as he used to do. - About three weeks ago he came to witness, and said that the devil had been to him ; witness laughed, but Lovett repea•ed It wts true : and said the devil told him to keep quiet and not to be in a hurry, for that be would make it all right by and bye: he also said that the devil had " squeezed him tighter than he ever was squeezed before;" he told witness to keep quiet and it would ail be settled soon. He asked witness, "if you should ca. ch a man with your wife and were to kill him, is there any law for it ? " To which witness replied,— " That he knew nothing of law, but that he hoped such a thing would never happi•en to either of them." In answer to questions from the Jury, witness said he never " chaffed" Lovett about his wife, nor did he ever hear any other person doing so. The CORONER said there was evidence enough to show that the man must have been labouring under some delusion. Witness further stated that last Saturday, while they were drink ing together, Lovett said to him," Come, drink with me—you'll not see me here much longer;" at the same time nodding his head in a very unusual way, When he heard any conversation going on among his fellow workmen, he would directly fancy they were speaking of him, and would say, " I know what you are talking about," though they were never thinking of him. He was as jealous as possible, and had not, witness was sure, been in his right mind for some time past. The CORONER said, after the evidence of the last witness, he did not see how the Jury could profitably employ their time in further investigation. The evltence clearly proved, he thought, that the man must hare committed the melancholy act under a fit of insanity. - He (the Coroner) saw no advantage which could result to public justice in returning a verdict of " felo de se," or wilful murder with respect'to the killing of the woman. Though, if the man had survived, he (the Coroner) should have been com pelled by law, to direct the Jury to return a verdict of wilful mur der ; that the shield of legal protection might be thrown around all others of her Majesty's subjects, from the effects of the man's unsound state of mind. Under present circumstances no such ob. ject could be answered. If the Jury were not satisfied, however, of the condition of the man when he committed the acts, they could return that the deceased was found dead—how and by what means they could not determine. He (the Coroner) thought on the whole they would have no difficulty in coming to the conclusion that the man destroyed his wife and then himself under a temporary rhrensy. It was very mysterious that the man should have left unhurt the child who was sleeping in the same bed, and have only destroyed the wife of whom he had through delusion conceived a groundless jealousy. The Jury returned a verdict that the deceased, William Lovett, cut his wife's throat, and afterwards his own, being, when he com mitted both acts, in a fit of derangement. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEB. 14. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat at a few minutes after Five o'Clock. The Bishop of LONDON presented a petition from Cheltenham on the subject of National Education, and praying for the free and unfettered use of tho Scriptures. Lord LYNDHURST presented a petition from an individual praying that the cause of Winter v. Burg might be ordered to be reheard. Lord DUNCANNON laid certain returns on the table. which were or d ere d to be printed. _ _ . _ Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from a Paris in Carmarthen, praying for the adoption of Mr. 1141's plan of Postage; another from a Parish in Norfolk, pray ing for a total Repeal of the Corn.laws, Extension of the Suffrage, Vote by Ballot, and Triennial Parliaments ; also, a petition from the inhabitants of the ward of Cripplegate Within ; carrying on trade to the extent of between one and two millions a-year, praying for the total abolition of the Corn-laws. NATIONAL EDUCATION. Lord BROUG HAM wished to know whether the Noble Lord would have any objection to lay before the House a certain education return which bad been laid before the other House of Parliament by Lord John Rus sell. He would take this opportunity of expressing his ex treme satisfaction—and he did so in redemption of his pledge at the commencement of the Session—at the course taken by her Majesty's Ministers in directing their attention forthwith to the great and important sub ject of national education. This, he was persuaded, would give the greatest satisfaction to all those who took an in terest in the question ; and he should be most willing to enter into any plan that might be suggested by her Majesty's Ministers, with all the dis position possible to concur in that plan. This was a subject to which he had paid a great deal of at tention for more than the last 20 years, as the public very well knew, both in his place in the House of Commons, in Committees, and in their Lordships' House, and, there fore, he naturally felt deeply interested in it. He should pass over all the etiquette and courtesies or discourtesies attending a knowledge or a want of knowledge on ',he subject before. He cared not by whom the plan was brought forward—from what channel it came . He should give it his most cordial , :apport, should he find upon an examination of it, it was such as that he ought to approve of.—( Hear, bear.) Nothing, he believed, could be worse than the construc tion of the Board of Education, and his reasons for snaking this statement he would give when the measure was brought forward. All he could conscientiously do in support of the scheme of education he would do. He had formerly done all in his power to forward this subject. He was rejoiced that he was relieved from the responsibility of carrying this subject further, by its being' placed in the hands of those who , had now t a k en i t up. H e h ad, perhaps, had more ex perience on the subject than most of their Lordships ; and 711 the benefits that they could derive from his experience, all the assistance they could derive from his zeal, he now offered to the Ministers on this subject. The Bishop of LONDON was understood to ask whe ther the returns to certain queries which had been circu lated through the country through the medium of the Poor Law Commissioners had been laid on the table ? Lord BROUGHAM—The course I ask the Noble Viscount to pursue, was to lay before this House the re turns which had been laid on the table of the House of Commons by Lord John Russell. The Bishop of LONDON asked if there would be laid before the House the correspondence which had taken place between the National Society and the Treasury on the sub. ject of normal schools, and inspectors. With respect to the returns, we understood the Right. Rev. Prelate to say that he believed them to be incorrect. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it was only by accident he had been prevented from laying before the House the papers on education,which would be presented very shortly. The Government had thought fit to do what they deemed the most practicable, not the most complete, , in the way of education, upon their own responsibility, but he need not assure his Noble and Learned Friend ( Lord Brougham) that they would be most anxious in the progress of any measures which might be introduced CANADA. Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that upon a reference to the report of the Noble Earl (Durham), which had been printed and laid on the table, he found that in a communi cation of the 25th of Sept. he made reference to a former dispatch to her Majesty's Government, but which did Rot appear in the documents now before the House. He wished to know from the Noble Lord opposite whether there would be any objection to lay that despatch also upon the table. Lord MELBOURNE said (as we understood, but his Lordship spoke in a very low tone), those that were thought proper to be produced had been produced, and those which it was not thought proper to produce, were not produced. The DUKE of WELLINGTON said that, consider ing what had passed, he was desirous of knowing from the Noble Viscount opposite whether he would have any ob jection to produce the despatches of Sir Francis Head.-- (Cheers.) It appeared to him the (Noble Duke) that it would be proper to have those despatches before the House. There were other despatches also referred to, especially those with respect to the arrangement made for the Go vernment of Upper Canada to be in the hands of Sir John Colborne, and he wished also to know whether the Noble Viscount would have any objection to produce those. Lord MELBOURNE said that he should not himself have laid on the table of the House the dispatches from Sir Francis Head. He should not have done that himself, but, considering the observations that had been made on the subject, and the premature publication of certain parts of the report which had taken place, he should have no objection to the production of those dispatches should the Noble Duke think proper to move for them. The Duke of WELLINGTON gave notice that he should move for the production of them to-morrow. Lord MELBOURNE said, that with respect to the dispatches with reference to Sir Jobn Colborne, there could be no objection to the production of them, should the Noble Duke also think proper to move for them. The Duke of WELLINGTON gave notice that be should likewise move for them to-morrow. Lord BROUGHAM said there could be no doubt that the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's Government had in his answers adopted a perfectly Parliamentary line. THE SUN, LONDON, FR into.the House of Parliament to receive any suggestions or consider any amendments which might be offered, and more especially from any person who had devoted so meritoriously so much of their time and attention to this subject, as his Noble and Learned Friend. The object of the .Govern ment had been rather to make a beginning, than to form any complete plan—( Hear, hear)—and thus to call forth the objections and excite the expression of the opinions of all parties, and it would be a mat ter for future consideration, whether, if the plan succeeded, it should be rendered more extensive and efficacious. As to the returns which had been alluded to by the Right Reverend Prelate (the Bishop of London), the Noble Marquis said he admitted that they were in many respects imperfect, and might therefore possibly mis lead their Lordships. Lord BROUGHAM said nothing could be more just than the observations of his Noble Friend, who had just at down, and certainly the Government when they brought forward a measure of this kind upon their own responsibility ought not to be too severely judged, and it might often be impracticable in human affairs, particularly in a matter so complicated and en tangled as that of education, to do all that might be desired. at the same time he would remind their Lordships of that which those who, like himself, had taken an active in terest, and acquired some great experience in Puha-. mentary proceedings and legislative changes, well knew, viz., that it was often very injudicious to attempt what was termed " a little plan," because thereby there was a great danger of disappointing► your supporters, and at the same time exciting as much animosity as could pos sibly be created by a plan, vithich although more extensive, would be more satisfactory, and therefore would gain more support ; and this consideration he ( Lord Brougham) thought should he kept in view by Ministers now. Lord EL LENBOROUGH asked when the papers would be laid before the House explanatory of the affairs of India, promised as they had been by the Noble Viscount at the head of the Government? Lord MELBOURNE sa'd the treaties would be laid before the House in the course of a day or two. TURNPIKE TRUSTS. The Marquis of SALISBURY gave notice that on an early day he would move for:a Committee upon the sub ject of Turnpike Trusts in England and Wales. Lord BROUGHAMhopedthe Noble Marquis would con sider the propriety of introducing another subject, he meant that of railways, which were the only recognised mode of travelling. That was a subject which undoubtedly called for the attention of the Legislature. They were shortly going to have no horses at all to carry them.—( A laugh.) And it was likely that unless cne in tended to travel three or four hundred milea a day, they would not be able to travel at all, except by the waggons. —(Renewed laughter.) He hoped his Learned Friend would take into consideration the propriety of moving for the appointment of a Committee upon that, as well as upon the other subject. He believed there was a sum of eight millions of money invested in these turnpike trusts, and very often widows and orphans were depending upon them for support. He knew one case in which an income of 2001. a year had been reduced to 401., and he believed there were many others who had been almost reduced to beggary. Her Mak•sty's Government, without violating any principle, could take offthe post horse duty.— ( Loud cries of " Hear bear.") Now, if they took off the post-horse duty altogether (and if they did not take ;t off, it would take itself off,) there would be no great generosity in the act, and it would enable the Post-masters to keep their heads above water a little longer. He thought that the subject was worthy the attention of the Government and his Noble Friend. • A NOBLE LORD on the Opposition benches observed that hat was the business of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Lord BROUGHAM had no wish to undertake the task _ _ himself—he was only desirous that his Noble Friend should do it. If his voice could reach the Chancellor of the Exchequer—if, by any possibility, the Chancellor of the Exchequer could hear him, but which he would not do— ( A laugh)—for he was at his duty at tbe Exchequer, or at his dinner, or in the othee - House of Parliament...but if he did not give up the pcst-horse duty it would give him up, and that was the only question. The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Fan. 14. The SPEARER took the Chair shortly before Four o'Clock. Sir RCP ANE DONKIN was introduced by Mr. G. W. Wood and Mr. R. Fergusson, and took the oaths and his seat for Sandwich, in the room of Sir James Rivett Carnac. NEW WRIT FOR DEVONPORT. On the motion of Mr. E. J. STANLEY, a new writ was ordered to be issued for Devonport in the room of Sir, George Grey, who, since his election has accepted the of fice of Judge Advocate General. Mr. SANFORD presented a petition from the Great Western Railway Company, praying for leave to bring in a Bill to extend their powers. Mr. MARK PHILLIPS presented a petition from the Liverpool and Manchester Railway Extension Company, praying for leave to bring in a Bill to enlarge the powers o the Company. CORN-LAWS. Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND presented a petition from Ossett, in the West Riding of Yorkshire, praying for a total repeal of the Corn-laws. The petitioners stated that the British empire was mainly dependent on commerce, and that that should be left in a free state, as all articles of food and luxury were best procured by free trade—that this country, on account of the limited extent of its landed property, was depdont on foreign countries for its supplies of corn, c 001, silk, &e.--that the prosperity of manufac r tl vr ...l com merce depended upon capital, skill, a price of labour, and that the cost of labour in this cbtiptry had been much higher than abroad, in cobsequenee of which its manufacturers had to contend with great disadvantages; thjat the mannfacturers of Great Bri tain had been hitherto prosperous, because other nations were not able to compete with them ; but that these foreign nations, during "the last twenty-three years, had wisely brought themselves, in a groat degree, upon an equality with those of Great Britain, in their skill and the extent of their employment of capital, and the latter bad begun to feel seriously the disadvantages under which they laboured in consequence of the high price of food—that the petitioners considered these laws as restricting free intercourse, and tending to raise the price of food ; and they prayed the House to extend to that country the privileges of free trade, by removing all ob stacles thereto. REPEAL OF THE UNION. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition, signed by up wards of 10,000 of the inhabitants of the city which be had the honour to represent, stating that they had determined that there should either be a real union, or none at all.__. (Laughter from the Tories.) He was glad to see Hon. Gentlemen laugh, for it really was ludicrous that the people of Ireland should have occasion to say so. The petitioners said, that to make the union real, there should be an equalization of the political franchise, equal corporate reform, and equal religious liberty, in not compelling the majority of the people to pay for the Church of the mi nority. The Hon. Member moved that the petition be taken into consideration on the 28th instant, on which day he meant to bring in a Bill on the subject. THE WATCHMEN OF DUBLIN. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the dis missed watchmen of the city of Dublin, complaining of the hard treatment to which they were subjected in their old age, and praying the House to take their ease into consideration. The SPEAKER inquired who was to pay the money? Mr. O'CONNELL supposed the public at large. The prayer of the petition was then read. It prayed. the House to ameliorate their condition, by appointing a Committee to investigate their claims to compensation, or give such relief as might seem meet. The SPEA KER said, if the House appointed a Com mittee to investigate their claims, it would be an admission that the claims, if made out, ought to be paid by the public. Mr. O'CONNELL withdrew the petition, CANADA. _ _ _ Mr. LEADER presented a petition from two Advocates practising at the bar in Montreal. They stated that they derived their...eoleflubsistence from the exercise of thtirlirti fession—tbat amongst th e sacre d ri g hts gr a nt e d them by this couutry.: perrnal liberty was the one which they most valued that in consequence Of Sdliri6 late acts they were afraid that right Was to be altogether taken from them, iii COnSequence of the flagrant abuse of power. to which they have been subjected—that they, with several other persons, were forcibly tout from their families on the 4th of Novoilhci Ike ; by persons calling themselves thii ng• ehts of Government, ' with and dragged prianit by her Majesty's troops, with aobud, t a a n s ate th anythe knowledge accusation against thethem, or ders of Sir John"- Coltorne ; they stated further, that it was publicly believed that a Carte blanche had been given to .many persons, tb denounce as traitors any of her Majesty 3 s subjects In the colony, thus furnishing to enmity an opportunity of wreaking its revengeful feelings on the liberty of the subject—that having been thus ar rested they were detained in prison till the 13th De.. cember, when the gaoler ordered them to go out—that they had written a letter to Sir John Colborne, demanding what was the accusation against the m , and demanding to be brought to trial, but that to that letter no answer was returned. They stated, further, that Commissioners had been ap. pointed to examine into this cause ; that with their knowledge these two gentlemen had been detained in prison, without rny occasion, and this with the know ledge of the Executive. They stated they had no legal resource against this course, as since the execution of the order for their arrest, they found an Act of Indemnity had been passed, which deprived them of the power of bringing the offenders to trial before the ordinary tribunals. They asked for that justice from the Imperial Parliament which they were unable to obtain in their own country. They stated further that , being sincerely attached to the happiness of their country, they have another duty to fulfil, which was to denounce to this House the devastation of their country by the troops of her Majesty and by the vo lunteers. They further denounced, besides, the plun dering and devastation which had taken place, outrages still more revolting, committed by the soldiers and volun teers, on the unoffeuding females of the country. (The Honourable Gentleman was here interrupted by an Honourable Member from the opposite benches, who thoughi. was going beyond the line agreed on in making so long a statement. Mr. Leader said he was merely reading the prayer of the petition, which he had a right to do. The Speaker thought Mr. Leader perfectly in order. That Gentleman proceeded.) The Hon. Gentlemen on the other side seemed inclined to gag them, but he should proceed with the petition, which further stated that the petitioners complained of the suspension of the laws before the Proclamation of Martial Law, and also of the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act ; and that the country was under military and despotic rule, of a nature to drive the population of these provinces .to despair, and of which the object appeared to be to destroy their institutions and their language, and drive them from their country. They prayed the House to take the, peti tion into their serious consideration, and grant them that redress which was so much needed. He should move that . \-./ the petit be printed, end gave notice that be should calf the attention of the House to the subject on the 28th o the present month. Sir G. STAUNTON presented a petition from Ports mouth, signed by between 6,000 and 7,000 persons, pray ing for an unconditional repeal of the Corn-laws. , IRISH EDUCATION. Mr. JAMES GRATTAN postponed till the 26th the motion which be bad given notice of for to•,day relative to the appropriation of the 50,0001. annually voted. for the purposes of Education in Ireland. • •EVENING EDITION,-'7EBRUARY 15, 1839 CORN-LAWS. Mr. W. RGCH E presented a petition from the Cham ber of Commerce of the city of Limerick, against any alteration in the present system of Corn laws. As the present was the first petition on the subject from Ire latid, he moved - that it be read at length by the Clerk. The petition was then read by the Clerk at the table. SOUTH AUSTRALIA. Mr. WARD presented a petition from Wm. Henry Bennett, who slated..that in conjunction with certain mer chants of tialifripd London a sum of 40,000/. had been subs'"4:',.: lz..lic purchase of l an d, and that six hung . :.,?_ -,.....%- ;were desirous of founding a ' had applied t o th e Colonial -ocolzffiyfo'r,..l,.., of obtaining a ti t l e t o th e l a nd, but althous . l ., '' Id offered security t o d e fray the ex- I v , penses of du& lenient, they had been unable to obtain the title, anctt4re consequently prevented from carrying their laudab4‘ purpose into effect. The Hon. Member moved that it be printed with the votes, and stated 11:, would bring the subject under the notice of the House on the 28th inst. CORN-LAWS. Mr. ORD presented a petition from Newcastle upon- Tyne, praying for the abolition of the present Corn-laws. Mr. DERBY presented th-ee petitions from parishes in Sussex against any alteration of the Corn-laws. The petitioners stated that the present system of Corn• laws were proved to have been the best that could be devised, and that if they were repealed the greater part of the soil of the country would be thrown out of cultivation. Captain PECHELL presented a petition from a per son named Phillips, an engineer at Worthing, stating that he had paid great attention to a plan for supplying the working.classes with food N‘ithout encroaching upon the property of the rich, and praying that the House would adopt his views of society, in order to allay the discontent that existed in the country.—( Laughter.) • Mr. RICH presented a petition from Knaresborough, praying the House to take into consideration the state of the trade in corn, and praying the House would put an end to the present monopoly that existed in that article. The petitioners stated that they saw no rcaem why the land holders should have a higher remunerating protection than the manufacturer—that the last ten yeirs had shown the inadequacy of the Corn-laws, and the petitioners therefore prayed for their repeal. Mr. CHRISTOPHER presented petitions from Henley on-Thames, and several other places, praying the House not to agree to any alteration in the present Corn-laws as the petitioners were afraid that if they were altered this country would become dependent upon foreign coun tries for a supply of food. Also one, praying the !louse not to sanction any plan of education which was not based upon the Scriptures. Mr. CRESSWELL presented a petition from certain merchants of Liverpool, complaining of the Customs exact ing more duty upon the export of woollen goods than was aloe ed by law. The SPEAKER inquired what was the prayer of the petition. Mr. CRESS WELL said the petitioners did not pray for money. but that the house would take their case into con sideration. The petition was ordered to be printed and to be taken into consideration on the 26th inst. The SPEAKER said that instead of Members giving notice on the presentation of petitions, it would ,be much more convenient if they put their names on the paper, and then take their turns with other Members, because a Member, in presenting a petition, got the precedence of others whose names were on the paper.— (Hear, hear.) Ile thought this plan would be much more agreeable. Colonel DAVIES presented a petition from the Cor poration of Worcester, praying for the repeal of the Corn laws. _ _ Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition from Whitchurch, Salop, praying that any system of national education which might be sanctioned by the House should be conducted under the superintendence of the Church of England. Mr. HUME presented a petition from an agricultural parish in the county of Suffolk. The petitioners stated that they viewed with alarm the discon ent which prevailed amongst the labouring classes and the declension of employment, and they therefore prayed for a total repeal of those cruel and injurious laws, the Corn-laws. They also prayed to be•protected, and therefore prayed for the Ballot ; they also stated that the Members of this House acted contrary to the pledges they gave on the hustings.—( Tory che'ers and laughter, received with counter cheers from the Mi nisterial benches.) They therefore implored the Howe to pass an Act to make Parliaments triennial, in order that the Members might sooner be called to account.—(Cheers, and cries of " Oh !" from the Tories.) Mr. A. CHAPMAN moved for returns of the foreign corni mported into the port of London, in the years 1837, 1838, and 1839. MAYNOOTH COLLEGE. Lord DUNGANNON postponed the motion of which he had given notice for a Committee of Inquiry into the state of education at Maynooth College, until the 26th inst. TRINITY COLLEGE. Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that when the Noble Lord made his motion relative to A1,„.-noplh College, he would move that the ComMitice d.o uhengl their inquiries into the state of education of Trinity Colltge,. Dublin—to inquire into the nature and amount of the , funds provided for education, and from what' de..scripticAn of property the same Was received ; the mode of expendi ture, the system of education, and particularly whether there be any and what exclusion from the henvfits of the franchise in the University of Dalin. PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORS. The HoN. and LEARNED MEMBER then gave notite thak on the 28th inst. he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to assimilate the franchise of Parliamentary electors in England, Wales, and Ireland, and to render the same more extensive. LAW OF LIBEL. The HoN. MEMBER also gave notice that, on the sates day, he would move for leave to bring is a Bill, secui Ong the liberty of the press, and to check vexatious actions for libel. QUALIFICATION OF VOTERS. Mr. THOS. DUNCOMBE gave notice that when the Bill for the Registration of Voters was in Com mittee, he would move that it be an instruction to the Committee to introduce a clause for the repeal of that portion of the Reform Act which requires the payment of rates and taxes as a qualification for voting. Mr. HUME gave notice that to-morrow he would move an humble address to her Majesty praying for copies of any correspondence relative to the state of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick; also that lie should move for returns of the revenues received from Lower Canada in each year, distinguishing casual and territorial revenues;--also, copies of the lists of fees recommended by the Secretary of State for the Home Department to be adopted by the Town Council, and a return of the amount of fees received by the town chrks of the several boroughs in England and Wales. REGISTRAR OF HACKNEY CARRIAGES. Mr. W YNN gave notice that to-morrow he should move for a new writ for the Borough of Southwark, in the room of Att. D. W. Harvey, who, since his election, had accepted the office of Registrar of Hackney Carriages. REGISTRATION OrELECTORS'BILL. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL trusted that the House would allow the Registration of Electors' Bill to be read a second time to-night ) notwithstanding it was a dropped order froth yesterday. fair R. ISIGLiS objected to its being read a second time tc-day, as totally without precedent. Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought it extremely incon venient tb read a Bill a second time which had been ap pointed for a previous day on which no House was made. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he would move the second reading tb-mortow. SIR J. BARROW. Sir E. CODRINGTON, seeing the Secretary for the Admiralty in his place, wished to ask him with respect to a letter signed by the Under-Secretary of the Admiralty. TW letter bad created a F ieat deal of interest among the Admirals in her Majesty's service, and he wished to know whether, in commenting upon that letter, they were to consider it as coming from the Admiralty, or from the individual pereonallY: Mr. WOOD conceived that the Gallant Admiral had referred hot to a letter,, but to a, chapter, in Sir John Bar ritw's Life of Lord Anson. He could have assured the Gallant Admiral that the Admiralty had no Weil with re spect to what that chapter contained, and that the views and opinions stated in it were those of Sir John Barrow, and not those of the Board of Admiralty. Capt. GORDON alluded to a pamphlet ) published yes terday, and asked whether the facts impugned in that pamphlet were published on the authority of the Board. Mr. WOOD gave the same answer to this question as to the other. They were not brought forward on the au thority of the Board. Lord JOHN RUSSELL alluded to some misunder standing on the subject of a notice connected with the Corn laws, given by the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton, and .s so short a notice had been given of what he meant to pro pose, he would beg to ask what that notice was? Mr. VILLIERS regretted that there was anything not clearly understood in a notice of so much consequence. It was f or t h e recept i on o f evidence at the bar of the House , in supp ort o f t h e a ll ega ti o ns contained in certain petitions. He meant to present some petitions on the subject of the Corn-laws, alleging certain things ; and on Tuesday next he intended to move that those allegations be supported by evidence at the bar of the House. Lord JOHN RUSSELL, now he knew what the mo tion was, did not think it was incumbent on him, before the right tim e came, to d ec l a re what his intentio n was.— ( Hear, hear, and c h eers.) Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought such conduct decid edly unfair. The notice of the Hon. Member for Wolver hampton had been printed on the Votes of the House the same day, and if the question had not been p ut, we should have re mained in i gnor ance of the matter. The Noble Lord had not treated th e H ouse f a i r ly in not stating wh a t th e i ntentions of Go vernment were, an d it seemed they were now to wait till T ues d ay nex t in order to kn ow what course was to be tak en . Mr. VILLIERS sa id the Right Hon. Baronet hod not quite correct l y re p o rted what he (Mr. Villiers) had done up on t hi s ques tion. Qn the Ist day of the Sessi on he gave distinct notice of the course he meant to pur usntabteedfor that ha t t h i e t was sue. H e was aske d by an Honourable Member opposit e (Mr. Ch r i stop h er ) w h a t course he intended to take, and be answered most distinctly that it was ,his intention not to raise th e genera l question of the Corn-laws upon Tues day, but t h at hi s mot i o n would be to call evidence a t th e Heha(l also e question his then inte n p t r i e o s n e n t u t . bring( H e t r h . ) whole q bar in support o f t he allegations of a petition w hi c h he House; but most certainly he would give notice of his intention, so that the House should not betaken by surprise Sir ROBERT PEEL—There was no ground of corn pinint against the Hon. Gentleman, for upon the first day of the Session he had distinctly stated the course he in tended to pursue. The notice given by him was most distinct, andcould not be misunderstood by any one ; hut the Noble Lord had distintly stated that it was his intention to or pose the motion of the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton. 0.1 Tuesday last he ( Sir Robert Peel) asked the Noble • Lord whether he could inform the House what course the Government intended to pursue, or what amend ment ',hey meant to propose upon the Honourable Member's motion. lie did not then press for an answer, but the Noble Lord had most distinctly promised that he would give en answer that day.—( Cheers.) He wes surprised, he must confess, to receive such a notice from the Noble Lord as had just been given to the House. Surely the House ought to be in possession of the intentions of Government upon a motion of such importance sonic drys b fore that on which the motion was made. Mr. VILLIERS had not yet presented the petition on which his motion was founded. The Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had asked him what the pray er of tl.et petition was, and be (Mr. V. ) told him that the peti tioners prayed that they might be ailowed to prove the allegations contained in the petition by evidence at the r of the House. That was a totally different prayer from that of a total and immediate repeal of the Corn-laws. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The Right Honourable Paronet bad no doubt correctly stated the impression made se on his mind by what had fallen from him (Lord J. It issell)i but it was totally different from the impression left. in his own mind.—( Cheers). He had distinctly st ted that he would not pledge himself as to v hat course he would take with respect to the motion of the Honourable Member fir Wolverhampton ; he had stated that be would give: his answers to-day. (Cheers.) Certainly if be was about to propose at amendment, or to propose any course different frsrn that of the honourable Member for Wolverhamp. n—if he was going to do otherwise than meet th proposition with a distinct yes or no, he would feel it his duty to give the House proper notice of such intention. But in considering the question put ley Ilia Right Honourable Baronet ( Sir Robert Peel), it forci bly occurred to him that it was too much to ask him to d Clare positively what course the Government might f; el it its duty to adopt upon such an occasion. The Right Hon. - Baronet the Member for Kent appeared to think that he (Lord J. Russell) gas adopting a very unfair course, but be was sure he should not hear from the Chair sue . correction of that course, or that it was his duty, f. r scie ral day s. before a motion was made, to state that he had considered the question, and that no reasons sod no arguments that could be urged would induce hint to take any course other , than that he had made up li s mind upon.—(Cheers.) Ile might have made tie his own mind with respect to the question.— ( Loud cries of , " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) Pat he certainly still thought it would not be fair to the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, or to those numerous petitioners in the country who asked to be heard at the bar of the Ilouse, that he .should endeavour to prejudge that question, and to induce, o hers to suppose beforehand that be should not give his support to the motion.—( Cheers. ) As to any advan tage that could be gained by the course he had taken the Right Hon. Gentleman might suppose, if he chose, that he (Lord John Russell) meant to give his direct support to the Honourable Member for Wolverhampton aml then he could suffer no disappointment. He might summon his forces next Tuesday, and no advantage could then be taken of him.--( Great cheers and laughter.) Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL sail it was evident he must have been under a mistake, but he did understand rise Noble Lord most distinctly to promise that he would give his Right Hon. Friend a decided answer this evening —( Cheers)—and he certainly had believed that the Noble Lord would have redeemed his promise.—(Opposition cheering,) Sir R. PEEL inquired whether before the House came to consider the state of Canada, it would be put in pee s:ssion of any despatches from Sir John Colborne, giving tee opinion of that distinguished officer as to the course hich ought to be pursued. Lord JOHN RUSSELL was not aware of any de seatches of the nature to which the Right Hon. Baronet eluded. With respect to one subject to which his Right I !on. Friend near him had adverted, namely, the presenta tion of a treaty, he wished to say that his Right Hon. Friend would consider very seriously before producing any other japer than the treaty which bad been laid before the House. Sir R. PEEL was exceedingly glad to hear that some reserve would be made.—( Hear, hear. ) MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND.) Lord MOR PET H then rose to move for leave to bring int a Bill for the regulation of Municipal Corporations in Deland, but the commencement of his observations were nearly inaudible in consequence of the noise occasioned by Members leaving the House. He said, as nearly as we could collect—l rise, Sir, to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the reform of Municipal Corporations in Ireland. With what ever importance I may consider the proposition to be in vested, and however desirable I may consider it to be, certainly cannot claim the attention of the House to my motion on the score of its novelty. This, I believe, Sir, if I succeed in inducing the House to give me leave to bring in the Bill, will be the fifth measure of the kind that has been introduced here, all of which, except the very first, have been attended certainly with very long, I will not say tedious discussions and protracted altercations in both Houses of Parliament. The grounds, therefore, Sir, upon which this measure rests, must be suffici ently familiar to every person whom I have the honour to address. They were originally laid down with great minuteness in the Report of the Commissioners for iu quiring into the state of Municipal Corporations in Ire land, which detailed with great minuteness and accuracy their views respecting the abuses and imperfections of the existing system, and the remedies that they recommended as the most proper to be adopted for their correction, and since that time up to this day, so far as - 1 am aware, those statements have been neither impeached nor questioned. But what would make it eminently superfluous in me to dilate at any length upon those grounds is the course which has been adopted by the great party mustered on the benches opposite, and assembled in still more formidable num bers elsewhere, who have in fact consented, on two separate occasions to the entire destruction, extinction, and aliena tion of all the existing corporate institutions in Ireland ; and upon one other occasion, when the Bill was before us last year, they also did consent to their entire Ise:fasting and remodelling. I therefore feel, Sir, that it would be more than idle and importunate in me now to at tempt to dispute the ground which has been so often trodden. 1- think I should be doing what is much more in accord ance not only with my own measure but the pleasure of the House at large if I confined myself exclusively to the main points of difference and detail in carry ing the measure into effect, whereby the Bill which I now ask for leave to bring in is distinguished from what before was mutually agreed to by both Houses of Parlia ment. In so doing, I will beg leave to premise, that while it has been our great wish to carry as far as possible upon all essential points the assimilation of the law between this country and Ireland wher ever the previous discussion in Parliament had shown that it might be done without sacrificingessential interests, without sacrificing the assimilation. of the institutions of the two countries in those cases, we are disposed to em brace such additional towns, as may be considered neces sary. The main point in difference at the end of the last Session will, I think, be admitted by all parties to have been the amount of the franchise that was proposed to be given for municipal purposes to all towns in which Corporations were still to be left under the provisions of the Bill. It will be remembered that the House of Lords proposed that the elective franchise should be given by the occupation of twelve months of a tenement of the value of 101. a year, whereas our proposition was, an occupation of six months of a tenement rated at what was virtually Si. For the present we propose to adhere to the proposition we last made of an 81. rating for the towns to which we propose to extend corporate rights ; but as it was admitted in the course of discussion on both sides that it was desirable to identify the law and prac tice of the two countries, and as we were only prevented from adopting that course by want of proper materials, and those materials having been since supplied by the enact ment of the late Poor-law Bill for Ireland, we propose that in any of the corporate cities of Ireland where a Poor- rate has been established for three years, that there every person occupying a tenement which has been rated to the relief of the poor for the three previous years, should enjoy the municipal franchise. With respect to the nomination of Sheriffs, we adhere to the proposition we last made, thereby dissenting from the amendments in the Lords, who proposed to place their nomination exclusively in the Lord- Lieu tenant. We propose to retain the same number of towns in the first schedule of the Bill, in which Corpora tions are to be given by express provision, and also to ineli d. in the second schedule, the same towns agreed upon in the last Session, but the Crown will be empowered to extend corporate rights to any town in Ireland, not included in the schedules, possess rig a population of 3,000 inha bitants. The two lieu:XS proposed to deal with these towns in different modes. Both those courses were open to objections. One considered that a 1 0 1. rating tt as too high for the large towns, am; that it would be overwhelming in the small ones. Such was I : i t :2 case if the towns petitioned ; if they did not, t h en a eL;e tinction was to be made between boroughs having a property of one hundred pounds a year and those that bad nut. In the former case, the Commissioners were to be chosen by a 101. constituency, and in the latter ndf, We think those provisions at variance with the whole spirit and scope of the Bill, which is not to encourage centralized management, but to encourage it among large com munities. In boroughs not having property to the xtent of one hundred pounds, the Corporations were to continue the same. Such were the propositions made the amendments in the House of Lords. Our' amendments and our suggestions were that in all the boroughs in schedule B, in which the Corporations - acre not directly continued by the Act, the Commis. sioners should be elected as under the oth Geo. 4, and the corporate property should be transferred by them under the Act. This was objected to. It was said that we had not the right to make compulsory the provisions of the Act ever parties who were not liable, and that it was contrary to the power of the Government to apply the power of taxa. tion against those who ought not to be taxed. We felt this objection, and accordingly with reference to those towns in schedule B, if they address a request to the Crown, then the Crown will be empowered to extend to them the rights of a Corporation, provided the franchise is such a sum as will give a sufficient qualifica tion —one not exceeding 8/., and not less than 51. and after three years, the English franchise is to come into operation. In the boroughs which do not petition, and which conse quently do not express any desire for having Munici pal Corporations, the Commissioners elected under the 9th George IV., chap. 4, will administer corpora tion property of the town but without the power of levying a rate, consequently that objection will be ob viated which was made to the measure of last year—that by it we were levying a tax without consulting the people on the subject. These, I believe, are all the salient points of difference between the measure now proposed and those points which were agreed on as the foundation of a similar measure between the two Houses of Parliament. I do not pretend to make the assertion which was m :de the other evening, but which did not receive any great degree of assent from the Members on either side of the House, that this question of Municipal Reform is the only remaining question, the settlement of which is necessary to the tranquillity and prosperity of Ire land ; but I a() state now the simple fact that it is the only remaining one of the three great questions relating to Ire land hich have occupied the time and attention of Parliament during several successive Sessions.—( Loud cries of " Hear, bear.") I think that the prospect vs o have of now settling this question will enable us to devote our time and attention to the discussion of other mea sures which are of great national importance, and which, although perhaps they do not appeal so much to party spirit, as watchwords, nevertheless, affect the physical comfort of the people. I have thus laid be fore the House the course we mean to pursue with 'regard to this measure of Municipal Reform, in as simple a man ner as I could do; and I do trust that before the end of this Session of Parliament, we shall be enabled to bring this much discussed and much vexed question to a satisfactory and speedy termination..(Loud cheering, during which the Noble Lord sat down.) Mr. SHAW did not intend to offer any opposition to the motion of the Noble Lord for leave to bring in the Bill.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord had not gone into any very minute detail of the measure he intended to propose, but as he (Mr. Shaw) collected, the franchise (lOW proposed was different, not only front that agreed to on his ride cf the House last year, but also different from that which had hitherto been proposed by the Government. With regard to the franchise proposed by the Noble Lord, he would beg to refer to an election which took place under the Poor-law Bill very recently to which the Noble Lord alluded. It had been hoped that the spirit with which that measure was discussed and passed through Parliament, without party feeling and without reli gious animosity, would have had its operation in Ireland. But on the occasion to which he referred, when the Bill was put in operation in the County and City of Limerick, that hope list not been realized, and a very diffsrent course to that anticipated had been adopted. When the election of guardians was announced he had been informed that at a meeting of those who belonged to a Political Union in the City, a BomanCatholic clergyman being in the chair, a list of twenty Guardians, the entire number to be elected, was prepared; that copies of that ist were sent to every Roman Catholic Clergyman in town and neighbourhood; that they were forwarded to all parts of the district covered by the Union ; and that, contrsry to the opinion of not only Protestants but Roman Catholics, who enjoyed property and whose station and respectability ought to have secured to the;n a large share in the election, it was carried—and in that list there were 19 Roman Catholics out of the t2O, although it was notorious that in the county a large proportion of the pro per: y belonged to Protestant proprietors. That was stated to him by credible witnesses. He was not conversant with the facts themselves, nor had he bad an opportunity of inquiring into them, but he believed the Noble Lord would not coetradiet the main features of the ease, as he had stated them. lie did not think this could lead the Noble Lord to hope that the proposition be made, that the same persons who were now electors under the Poor-law Bill should be the corporate electors in Ireland, would receive tl.c sanction of that side of the House. This was differs nt f ro m that which the Noble Lord proposed last year—viz., the 81. franchise. The Noble Lord had riot stated either he boundary question was to form part of this Bill, or whether it was to be a separate measure. It could hardly be expected that tile boundary question would be settled or properly considered in this present Bill; and he thought that it would be much better that it should form a separate Bill. It was very desirable that this question should now be wholly settled, and the two measures would be better discussed separately. Certain amendments had been made upon the Municipal Act for England, sand the Noble Lord had not stated whether they were to be adopted or not. These were but trifling matters, but it would have been as well that they had been stated to the House.-- Cries of " Hear, hear.") There was no doubt that now the Irish Church question and the Poor-11ws having been settled —there was no doubt these measures must have considerable effect, both upon the Parliamentary and the Corporate franchise ; those measures having been passed, lie did not think it would be consistent to give any opposition to the present measure. He was still of the same opinion with regard to Corpora tions in Ireland as he had ever been. He thought that it would be better that they were altogether extinguished, by which great expense would be saved. He sincerely be lieved that the question had not attracted much attention in Ireland, and that the measure was not anxiously desired by any portion of the people. Still, for the reasons he had stated, he was desirous that the question should be settled in some shape or other. With respect to the question of disfranchisement, he was not prepared to agree with the Noble Lord, but he would take the earliest op portunity of protesting against another proposition, viz., that after a lapse of three years they were to adopt the English practice, by which every householder would be entitled to the franchise. Feeling the strongest possible objection to the franchise as proposed by the Noble Lord, he would reserve any future observations till the measure came more regularly before the House.—(Hear ) Mr. WM. ROCHE, who was very indistinctly heard, said he had presided at a public meeting at Lime rick when the Poor, laws were first introduced, and on that occasion it was decided that a certain number of per sons were worthy of the confidence of the people, and should be intrusted with the management of the Poor- Paws. The poor people from the agricultural districts around attended, and consulted, as they were alWays in the habit of doing, their clergymen on the subject. As regarded the preponderating numbers of Roman Catholics upon the list of g uftraiunQ, he (Mr. Roche) had never . thought of analysing the list, because he thought it a matter of great absurdity to enter into such an analysis, nor could he at present state whe ther the Roman Catholics preponderated or not,—( Hear. ) The Hon. Member went on for, some time, arguing that the rate-payers in Ireland did not conduct the elec tions upon purely religious prejudices. Mr. WYSE said he could bear a strong additional tes timony to the observations which had been made by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Roche). Whenever the Roman Ca tholics of Ireland had been called upon to exercise the elective franchise, either in respect to the officers of County Infirmaries or Dispensaries, it was found that the religious opinions of the candidate, either on one side or the other, were not taken as the criterion, bus the knowledge, the zeal, the abilites, and the character of those who were recommended to the vacant office, and whenever these qualities were found to exist, religious opinions formed no disqualification. He ( Mr. Wyse) could bear the testimony of his personal experience upon this point, especially as to the City of Waterford; he believed that the preponderance would be found on the side of those who were of the Protestant religion. But when was this ques tion to be properly considered ?—( Hear) —when would it cease to be treated in this House as a religious question ? He was glad, at last, that the day was come when all claim to the old Corporations had been given up. The people ought to have the power of governing their own affairs ; and when they had that power given to them, a feeling of happiness would be engendered which the people of Ire land had been too long deprived of. There was no coun try—Russia, Austria, or America, or any other, where the people were not permitted to assemble to manlige their own local affairs. Ireland alone had been the counts y that had been deprived of that. He was glad that the time was likely speedily to come when the old Corporations would be entirely done away with. In point of fact, their doom was completely scaled—both sides of that House seemed to be united in forgetting them, and that was the cane of their apparent apathy. Houses in Ireland were perishing, lands were uncultivated, and everything in that state which called aloud for some remedy. The sooner, therefore, they came to a decision upon something, and which he sincerely trusted would not be delayed beyond the present Session, the better for the people of Ireland and the better for the Cor porations themselves. As soon as the House had pronoun. ced a new law that law would he adopted—there would be no opposition to it—the people would feel that they had the means given to them of managing their own af fairs—they would learn a practical lesson in the discharge of their own affairs, and a closer union would take place be tween this country and Ireland than had ever yet been experienced. Mr. COLQUHOUN could not avoid making a few remarks on some of the observations he had heard. The Noble Lord's colleague opposite had said that the Church of Ireland was by means settled satisfactory to him ; and he presumed that it was thought that if this Municipal Corporation question was disposed of, that that would have the effect of conciliating the great mass of persons whom he desired to conciliate ; but If he would refer to the Precursor's ticket, he would find that the Church was only a sixth of what they asked for. The first thing they desired was a complete similarity of suffrage with Eng land, and that that suffrage in England should be carried to its furthest point. The next point was the ballot ; then came the Church, and a total extinction of tithes, and all other compulsory Ecclesiastical charges, whether called rent charge, cr by any other name. Why, there were meetings of tens of thousands of people since the Bill was brought forward last Session in reference to that Church at which it had been declared things were now in a worse state than ever ; and these were the ultimate and practical measures which the House had to look forward to for agitation. The Noble Lord had spoken of 9 identifies 'han but the Hon. Member for Dublin had info rme d th em 1,•, in hen what the identification aimed at was. He se had then gene on to state that the great o bject gai r ealS tt o lem t e h o a t t aimed at was 3y y supposed d b e f an the Union. all that had been of those questions was only 1`..2 lead to this, that they were now to embark on a sea of agitai:: on more extensive and ch more interminable than ever, and wt . :j was only to be determined by a severance of Ireland fro. 7, this country. He had understood his lion. Friend opposite to say that he was as desirous as any man for the exclusion of secta rian feeling , at the election of Poor-law guardians ; b ut there had just been an election at Limerick, where the people had refused to select the men of property, and in sisted upon electing men of extreme political feelings— politics represented by the Hon. Member for Dublin. It mattered not how low in station, how low in property these men might be—it was enough that they were violent_ po litical men—enough that they had joined in the cry of Precursor's re peal—enough that they had joined in the .oFaeocurts town ticket. What would be said of any persons f i twol 2 , o in England, if ia the Church the names l % stan g d up and say, read over, and persons were then sons proposed to be elected Poor -lacy o uardians y were so-and-so ; and if elect the Quaker, but elect M . r. t to don't elect the Dissenter, don't elect the Baptist, don't ou that there arc pe jed to that, we throw out a bin Deities reserved for y ou more se y vere than even the law itself—( Cheers). co uld not concur in the objec b the Hon. Member who ti on s which bad been raised y ' Mr. W. S. O BRIEN had just sat down, against the election which had just ofLimerick. Roman Catholics than of Protes greater proportion o taken place in. There was undoubtedly a but, having bad an oppor tunity of personally . g tan ts c hosen at that election, observing the elections throughout Limerick, he did not think it possible to point out an objectionable choice. As large a proportion of Protes tants had been chosen as, probably, their state of pro perty and other circumstances admitted of. He saw the list for Limerick, and he did not believe there swot single Roman Catholic on that list, and under neath the ris' ' W 23 Unifier), " Vote for the friends of the poor." occasion, hid it not been said by the Sir R. INGLIS said, he should notyhoahvleerLiseonrduoppoptiotsbitiea., that he was pledged to tl.e extinction and destruction of. the Corporations of Ireland. He was not so he would always object to be considered pledged tO any such proposition. He would not, off-hl,nd, consent to the extinction of Corporations either in England or Ireland \Vhcn he reflected upon the purpose for which those Cor.: porations were instituted, be considered that every friend, of the country, whether in reference to England or Irelaitd was hound to give them every due consideration that. their importance required, whenever they became the their subject of investigation. The argument meant this., Ms. by the creation of municipalities, they woul Ireland'° the hands of what were c ailed.the people of e a Pledged, and the great legal power, and what that legal power was, Hon. Member for Dublin would tell t he House. He, for one would never consent to place any such power in °I such hands. Though ho should not divide the House , I vet he refused to concur to be ranked w ith those who vid - i liegly allowed themselves to be consider ed as assenting to th,. destruction of Corporations. Lord J RUSSELL said it seemed hcrdly ne.,ce gs V.. for him to address the House on the subject of the Lviti n , l- t pal Corporations, as the House seemed disposed to eur w the proposition of his Noble Friend. But as the Poe r ",! ° , had been adverted to, he would allude to an elee%, - ,t which had lately taken place in Ireland. It s eemed t"', there had been a great political struggle at that electio.nt the one party seemed to think that they. had sustained: a grey triumph great defeat, and the other that they had achieved triumph in the result. It appeared that in a nother P a d of the country about equally from each party ail the different religious sects had be en fairly rePre" stinted in the choice of their Poor-law Guardians. Now, that was an election which ought ton aa: example- (Hear, hear)—and which he hoped wou '',,, followed as an example in other parts of Ireland.--(getto Lear.) Although there had been a great struggle at 00 election . in Limerick, he was happy to say that if teatl evil consequences had been expected to result from d struggle, no such consequence had occurred ; and he found that those persons who. had been elected, political bias, had shown no disposition to act °thew*, e. than in the most proper manner, and according to the enter' counts that he had received he had every reason to en,erin tain a hope that they would have no reason to COMPI!Lti. pOll of the elections front any interference on account of cal feeling. biolf Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said a few words w were not distinctly audible in the gallery. I tea" Mr. BARR ON would ask the Right Hon. Gcnt-c.,10 if during the fifty years that a Roman Catholic was elig h i e to became a rnetnbar of a Corporation. there was,!, single , instance of a Catholic having been elected? 1 ru g r r° l even of str . s _ yoked the other side, from a very natural recollection of that circumstance. Did they think the people, u nder a d the insults that had been put upon them for a centtlrYZ!nu, a-11..1f, were they at once to forget and forgive everytub'3s that bed passed? They themselves had shown th i n % to example, they ought to be the first to set an exa m ,r, :ale show that the law had been altered, and that now a" ra o ' sons in Ireland were placed upon an equality. ft We s 0 , imperative duty to meet those people in terms of L re t T e ir ciliation, and not to be eternally taunting them with ds • wish for retaliation, as naturally existing in their ill'a.ce The Hon. Member fur Kilmarnock said he woulEngland, to to Ireland the same laws in this respect as to i „,O , and Scotland, because a Society, in the first-named 6.-tsie try, claimed certain other privileges, and put forth ee l r sTao , rn.-aures of agitation, as he stated them to be. sci. et' this was as though we were to refuse a certa in law O h as land, because some people of that country met tog they met, and were sitting together in Parliament ° u 0 0 don at this very moment. Every case ought to beg et ! g el its own merits. ' It was an absurd argumen t for any P e al tp to make use of that we were not to grant this ref br unia Ireland, because certain people there called out fo r fli er's versal Suffrage, or for the Ballot • and it was no argtbad against granting to the people of Ireland what tbed if granted to the people of Scotland and of Engla ll .o ta ke they meant to do away with agitation, they oughtf that no notice of this Society or the other Soc iet y , but "i c i t hey which was proper, and not that which was unjust. ' n te, wished to grant that which had been grante d to other Pe"`did they must the manfully pass this measure. If thei rig bt not come forward with clean hands, they had °,° t de' to bring that as an argument against granting the J'.1.5,001a mends of the Irish people For this reason they '' 101- pass over the argument of the Hon. Member for s oh marnock ; he thought it their duty to pass ° e e l ; o pen sophisms. It had not been his intention to sl' Ib e this subject, but when every one, with the exceee ;lief believed an Hon. Baronet, agreed on granting t hing to Ireland, he hoped what he had said wo uld do °oting towards enabling them to see the neces sit y of se a oleo) the people of that country equal rights , and to Idaeo right on an equality with the people of Englan d in eve for the and every privilege they enjoyed. He h o p ed that pre' purpose of doing this they would throw aside ha d Me t judicc, and meet the people of Ireland as they " - o atri' the people of Scotland after the union with that e e ble raise° He hoped they would no more hear those • - 'l o use' taunts that had too often been used The law had abrogated all religious distinction'te'd iii hoped all such distinctions would also be ab r S i ntb e i n this .. he this House. Treat them with charity, and it Or i ii t e tb e lost, he was sure, on a generous and brave ?OP ° -- Irish. 0) 0 0 ' Mr. HENRY GRATTAN, in supported the w ore gave a detail of some transactions of a punialitoliff, between himself and the Corporation of the City of : v Wel' at the time of the Lord iiieutenancy of the Marq uis co o ' lesley, when he, with some-parties with whom he v!!" f tilt nected, proceeded against that body for the recover!, „ ° d cle' sum b of 17,000/., for a portion of which they .reee v ' 00 u e n n d t e u r r s e to s o o d r , b fo on r d t s h , e to H b o e n T. p hN a e i i d ecm f o r b o r m monies arising goof s '''° and indistinct manner, declined rent of certain lands. ceedings were taken upon them in the Rolls' . 14 b e s who decreed in favour of the claim, but fen °I e °r bonds, he stated he should get nothing come.—( A laugh,) His intention was to give aid, had no securitY; but for these e e to et p or o Corporation oktnhe the i f ub t e oa r t n vydausrr, d ya s niroprori oro.t a : for fiv n e coti . : o :a f g a : i motion T connected with this subject, in the followi n g, e ve° sums s h o at f mthoenreeybearlaanidtebdeafotraelathteismHeeotuinsegaofretbtueroorpio.rosrpatteioda, of the City of Dublin, stating to whom they vre,r,e the b 9 and whether for any official duties, too-ether wi t ' - laws or authorities by which the same was done- , e dr' jid. waseco different ffet. te,i.rrs e-o nlmL ultimately some T ve T ry ON mi s s a ta id kn ha s t t , at i e n m c e o n n ts ne h e a t d ion be e vi ti it b b ro t il h i b e t , b o e h l I . the House, and gave some explanations tiPM I s id e t e p stated e rio d siici that uai llda t e s de thatver a ( l Ht the sumsea Hear, whole b bo h ei a ea d r , o h f be e e the.°fal. h P i d b e i li . should not have taken part in the debate, if ea, not L been able to negative the statements of the _ l l the b Learned Gentleman. Before he brought forteald be/ recollected statement , theHo himself u ; and dd he e e s a h rn o e e t l i d Gentleman be e h ea ° : ab i a lo t w b e e j . to bring forward, as the existing state of thisigs, 9 fa the e i ell o e occurred five or six years ago. With respect - bunu a-C ,, ral questions before the House, there would be a no av P r ".. of discussion to-morrow, and he, for one, would pot not On h tr u a t cl i i e t. to H th e os w e o w ul h d o as w s e e r r e t olpiopowseevdertotu .t.:::9la•zetoie,°;.°9, , that , ~.bStit , 4 1 0 the bodies proposed by the present measure, In P d the l ' il t, old corporations, that the want of happiness, a r ' it 0 . s a cord existing in Ireland, was to be attributed. (V cries s tab o le f so,leilyHtooar,the hear,agitators hea o r, f ,, that the s os from tha t sne 0 , benches)—who, seeking to a man by • 0 o f f t ea the objects of mere bad ambition, and u.n aeees sl e o d e o y tical power, cared not what sacrifice they I ll gory (P P couritrl.' Tod happiness of the people in its achievem ent. the gro g tir, sure emanating from that House was mad!' t ' e o bad 9 e complaint by ill-minded agitators for their ow HO ' •n tha t f Ire' poses. The Poor-laws had been passed ile e t° and the House of Lords, as a benefit to the peooPprietoqb: land, as a means of compelling the landed P i . o r e s. to f t c h o e nt c ri h bu u t r e ch— to the sustentation of the poorer e- - t he P sr fits tithe questionon .ooo of t i v -g , a w afsars egreater ttl e dby cession great tbau cessionbe, to 1, tvifieo;r, friends, would have wished, inasmuch as it t°° „.-4 P ! - 0 0, five per cent, from the income of the clerginciliatt to hear, hear)--still it was a measure and he (Mr. Litton) thought it would eeN, soo o f L the happiness of the people of Ireland- r ,„ 0 1 ; 0 %6 °f c o trih ttt _ e o er was the Session ended, however, than in ev e g l e t on t ea the country meetings were held, and agitatioelects of " u ot for the purpose of neutralizing the good %pie aged the measure, and of exciting the minds of the P e ., D ort t hey the clergy. Nay, the very men who had t r rt s ,Aoo t hat , Poor-law question in that House, the fi l'o B lan d, got to Ireland to denounce it.—( Hear, h ear. 's Of Ire ' 1 0 in his judgment, was attributable the misfortune ,i, o il and to those who, for their own bad pure 00 lit I allow Ireland to be at peace. ~ v r art OP, Mr. M. J. O'CotINELL and Mr. H. Lig . "'" k tbe , e 0 oi the same time. The former said he wished wne ( or) and Learned Gentleman opposite a question% bst id I " Order.") A pr y er a ' it :d . Mr. GRATTAN explained. He ha d had P 1,, lie securities had not been given, but no cash li .i sit eolgv . Mr. LITTON—Cash was ultimately Pa l ' titine 1 all'i admitted that other securities had: been e ubs ( Hear, hear.) Non' t ee Learned Member to name the parties whO ", dente Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL requested te ad a daoe p e c d the Poor-laws in that House and had afterwaros 0) ~ No. ~e them ? ,-. • of s' Mr. LITTON could name them. —(-irles,suid n os., ion Mr. REDINGTON hoped the House vv,`,, at ienic,or . the assertions of the Hon. and Learned Lr ed t ee ,1 A pa facts. He was one of those who had suelM2,l o flon.. ti gh law Bill, and he had since supported it. 1 " s o tbvlo Learned Member for Dublin bad opposed it! ,agoeeeZoo it was well known that he had a vast deal o" her 0 neo Ireland, be defied the Hon. and Learned Me m et t ° fo r ccive it in the spirit they ought. The Hon". at otien t 'or that lie had done anything to excite the people m n e obe r f o r Meath, it now appeared, was correct in his Irishsantiation it was admitted by the Hon. and Learned G e °t hee , e ,) posite that he was nee paid in cash, but in of floti t ia security.—( Loud laughter from both sides of !; 0 7 pl i e dis p l a , He hoped after this the gouse would not Plae c t l e man °Pa to in the assertions of the Hon. and Learned Ge l ' e begg e sill 1 ' ree f la st bite. With regard to the preeent question be allowed to express his grmat satisfaction te at too oi ire , now before the House so far ex•ce,eded the mecausple aideof of year, and was so much more like e what the e other -r ••• • ; land had a right to expect. He warned th . t , s l a te e' bei P ntbee lre the House that it was useless for then" tO lefile.ss than t wo . land if they attempted to satisfy them . wti,th borough with were justly entitled to. He hope d t_ .e iv dea lt e. which he was connected would be more f t ! ie ll ' s we the in the present, than it had been in the p res s 'eft that t° i , Mr. LITTON would again distinctly as6hen given debt alluded to had been paid. —Leave w siii , bring in the Bill. • , ?15- tel e/ Lord MAHON then rose to move• " they , I ., „ z ifarin_,,, : pf controverted elections the objects of jusrt.i.eue _root.c'.ed CONTROVERTED ELECTIO , a the t, y, i , and dispatch would be best attained by a t th ll os. ls l re a • , sistin,g of Members of Parliament." When lie , e di°, 0 . Friend the on the subject, above all his Right Hon. the weight and authority of those from whom "' Ne _..----------"'" t --- - f ber Wh( r I