The Sun. — London, England, 1839-02-23 00:00:00

h.. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. 110US.E OF _LORDS, FEB. 22. Th e . LORD CHA: , :cr:Li.oR took his seat on the Wool- ACk a few 'minutes after Five o'Cloek. CORN-LAWS. The ERrl of RIPON presented petitions in favour of the Corn-lawz from si•vrral parishes in the county of Lincoln. The Eatl of DURHAM presented a petition from 'PraY'tng for the abolition of the Corn-laws. The Noble Earl said fie was requested by a Noble Friend of his (Lord Kinr,aird) to present similar petitions from Peebles, Ayr, Arbroath, Fik, and Perth. IRISH TITHES. Lord CLONCURR presented a petition from some Parish in Ireland against tithes, and stating that they did not Plink it just that the Catholics of that country should have to pay for . the support of the ministers of the Protestant Established Church. The Noble Lord stated that he did not think the present law would be satisfactory --oil the contrary, it seemed likely to produce had feelinii. The Earl of WICKLOW expressed his surprise that the Noble Lord should not have declared his objections to the present Tithe Act when it was before the House. Lord CLONCURRY said he was not there at the time or he would have opposed the Bill. The Marquis of WESTMEATH said the Protestants of Ireland were the proprietors of most of the land, and it was most unjust that the Catholics should obj,ct to pay the tithe rent-cha.-ge, because that being the produce of the land, went to the support of the Protestant clergy. Lord CLONCURRY said nine-tenths of the pro duce of the land was raised by the Catholic tenantry, and they objected to pay towards the maintenance of an} but their own religious instructors. Lord LYNDHURST presented a petition in I's-our of the Corn-laws'; also a petition from the Shepton Mallett Church of England Lay Association against ,any further Want to the Popish College of Maynooth, in Ireland. CANADA. The Earl of RIPON b egge d t o as k th e N o bl e M arqu i s the Secretary for the Colonies, when the Appendix to the Canada papers—which Appendix was referred to in those paper s as most important—(Herr, hear)—would b e laid before the House. It was most important that it should be produced before the discussion on Canada took Place. The Marquis of N 0 RM ANBY replied that if he had had an hour's notice, he could have answered the question; as ia was, he must defer the reply till Monday. INSULT ON THE BRITISH FLAG. The Earl of MINTO rose, and said—My Lords, then I spok e l ast n i g h t upon t h e su bj ect o f t h e se i zure o f ue . Mexican pilot from a British vessel, I was not sure how how of my i n f orma ti on h a d b een d er i ve d f rom p r i va t e , and ac'w much from, official sources. Since then I have looked into the despatch of Commodore Douglas, and I beg to l ead an e x t ract, i t i s d ate d V era C ruz , 21st o f D ecem b er , 838 :—" I have also had the satisfaction of receiving an explanation from the French Admiral on the subject of the pilot wh o was ta k en out o f h er M a j esty ' s E xpress p ac k e t, the affair having been entirely through inadvertence on the Part of his Royal Highness the Prince de Joinville." (as we unde rstoo d t h e N o bl e E ar l to rea d). If any Noble Lord will move for a copy of this dispatch, I shall be happy to produce it. Lord L YNDHURST—Your Lordships will, perhaps, satisfied with what the Noble Earl has read—if it contains all that part of the dispatch which refers to the matter. Lord COLCHESTER asked if the Noble Earl could atate whether the apology of the French Admiral was verbal or in writing. The Earrof MINTO said he could not even from pri vate information answer that question, but the paragraph he had read to their Lordships contained all that referred to the matter in that dispatch, though there was a hint i n a former dispatch that a certain occurrence had taken place, and that it would be inquired into. Lord COLCHESTER said the explanation was satis factory as f ar as i t went, b ut h e t h oug h t t h e p u bli c ou ght to annw the exact nature and extent of the reparation which had been offered by the French Admiral, and if the Noble Earl re ceived any further information, perhaps he would lay it before the House. The Earl of MINTO—My Lords, if the reparation was s atisfactory to the Commodore it must have been satis lactory t o your L or d s hi ps. I trust t h at N o bl e L or ds will not atempt to probe and penetrate this matter in the hope of discovering some little plea that might create dissension between two countries now so happily in friendship. Lord COLCHESTER said he had no intention of cre ating any ill feeling between the two countries, but as it had been admitted that an insult had been offered to the British flag,surely the officer through whose inadvertance it had been received, ought to have received such a reprimand from his superiors as would prevent such an occurrence in future, and this would tend to prevent rather than to cause any dissension between the two Governments. Lord HARDW IC KE presented petitions from St. Ives, Stilton, and various other parishes in the county of Iluntingdoo, against any alteration in the Corn-laws. Lord YARBOROUGH presented petitions from Win. terton, and a great many parishes in Lincoln, against any alteration in the Corn Laws. IRELAND. Lord RODEN said ho was fully aware of the im. Rertance of the subject about to be brought under discus sion by his Noble Friend near him, and therefore he should not detain the House long in putting the question he felt it to be his duty to put to the Noble Marquis opposite— he felt it to be unnecessary to go at any length at present into the question, as he had already stated his in tention of shortly, bringing the state of his unhappy Country under the consideration of their Lordships ; but he should feel himself guilty of a vary great dereliction of duty to those amongst whom he lived and loved, consisting of all classes and denominations of hi s f e ll ow su bj ec t s in 1 1 :0and, were he to allow one day to pass, aft e r seeing the Noble Marquis take his place in that House, without putting a question to him on the subject of the awful circumstance which had lately happened in Ireland under the Govern :ll; en t a the Noble Marquis. He should divide his ques "on into three queries, and he hoped the Noble Marquis w ould find it necessary to give a satisfactory ans wer to each of those queries. He wished to know whet her an y in f°rination - had been given to her Majesty's Govern :tent in Ireland likely to le ad to the detection of `" 0 murderer of the Earl of Norbury ; whether a nY perons were in custody charged with that crime; and whether the Noble Marquis had any reason to expect that that alarming conspiracy against life and property in Ire land, from which the atrocious event, as well as many others similar to it had emanated, was likely to be disco vered and suppressed? He felt it to be his bounden duty to put these questions to the Noble Marquis. " 0 knew the very great interest that was taken in this country, as well as in Ireland, as to the un happy spirit that was abroad there. He hoped the Nob le 'Marquis would give a satisfactory reply, because it was no small satisfaction to him (Lord R.) to know that in all parts of England a very large proportion of the corn ,snunity felt seve re ly f or th e unhappy state of his country '— -( Hear, h ear )— an d t h e crue l co nduct that was pursued by eam • ;m a persons there. :The M arqu i s o f NORMANBY sa id th a t the Noble Lord Opposite, when he gave notice last night of his in• s e • 1 `etion to put a _question to him, intimated that he did not . .; d 4llll to show anything but courtesy to him in his mode of . °l ag -see. ; Certainly, on all the various occasio ns Tit which. Irish affairs' had been mentioned in that cinse, • the Noble Lord opposite had never in the B.oghtest degree given occasion to complain of the want of courtesy, or of his not having given the fullest in illation of his intention. He (the Noble Marquis) un derstood now that the Noble Lord was looking forward to the day when he should be able to brine. forward the motion "which h e h ad given not i ce, an d w hi c h he (the Noble Mar- Vs)trusted would not be far distant. To the first question of liuletibilob Lord he could have no objection to give an ans wer ti mo n e ale l firmatiye, as far as his information existed. At the e left Ir e l an d, t h ere we re three persons in custody— two ju n one part, and another had been taken up in a very remote dist r i ct, upon susp i c i on o f h av i ng b een co ncerned in the murder. He had not heard what progress the investi fielation h a d made with respect to the share w hi c h t h ose p erson s ad had in that lamentable and mysterious event. He was Sure the Noble Lord and the House would see that it would be rather inexpedient that he should answer the second Question, namely, what grounds there were, or how far it Rag likely, that means were at hand to arrive at a just e enclusion. With regard to the third question, which he u nderstood to relate to a conspiracy—hit had formerly had a n opportunity of stating to the Noble Lord that the Go v ernment of which he had lately been at the head, had always been ready to receive and a n xi o us to examine Into any evidence tendered to them of any supposed con spiracy. , He was far from admitting at this moment by this statement that this melancholy murder had originated •in any such circumstance.—( Hear, heir, from a Noble Lord opposite ) The Noble Lord opposite cried " hear, hear," but he (the Noble Marquis) was only an swering the question of the Noble Lord. He could assu re their Lordships that he looked forward with great anxiety to the time when he should be able to wleet the Noble Lord opposite in respect to a resolution "h'eh, if the Noble Lard did not move, he certainly was - tit the meeting at which it was moved ; and at present he ' would only say, that anything in that resolution he indig nantly repudiated ; he challenged a discussion of the sub ject, and looked forward with anxiety to the period when the subject should be brought forward. • - Earl RODEN was s orry that the answer of the Noble Marquis was not satisfactory as to the second question, which related to the number of persons charged with crime. The Marquis of NO RM ANBY had forgot to state his • onpressions on that point, so far as be was allowed to do :°* lie could assure the Noble Marqu i s that the sic ' -.Yity of the constabulary and the officers of the Govern znent were such that no pains would be spared in order to bring criminals to the bar of justice. The Earl of RODEN—With respect to the third ques tion, he was extremely sorry that he was called upon to make a few observations. The Noble Marquis had stated that he did not believe there was any coil -I.,Pirace existed in I re land, hut he ( Earl Rode n) egged leave to ask whether the Noble Marquis had not r eceived from hi s own o fficers—from his own people—in f?rynation that the r e existed a wide spread conspiracy , either in the name of Ribandism, or some other name ? } \ . y . hateve r might be the Noble Marquis's opinion, or whatever 1 'e might state to their Lordships upon the subject, he ( Earl R._ ) would rat h er ta k e t h e op i n i on o f the venerable Judge Who lately presided at tee Tipperary Special Sessions, who tt'ited that many cases of crime, that were to be brought forwardi,.e there, arose out of a wide-spread conspiracy. the vroulu rather refer their Lordships to the resolution of te, twenty•ene Magistrate* in Westmeath, resoluti . ona w nieh were worthy of their Lordships' consideration, wherein it was stated that a tremendous conspiracy, 1 1 1 _ 11 , 6 ' eeterreltended a large portion of the people of Ire "a, was at this moment in existence. . The M arqu i s of NO RM ANB Y was ver y sorr y to in terrupt the concludeluito it, with motion Earl. If the Noble Earl intended to his he was perfectly ready to go but it wa s mu st irregular to go into the discussion Pon askinz questions. , Lord BROUGHAM quite concurred wit h hi s N o ble l ' l end- The que s ti on mu conic on again, for the pre- S ent unexampl e d state of Ireland deman d e d attention ; • but t h at was v . i disee, e . s d the very reason why it ought not to be s i n such a manner ; and because he was deeply impressed with the conviction that Parliamsat could not shrink from the question, he wished that the Noble Earl would not bring it en in such an accidental and incidental manner, and that without notice to the interestej or the House. It was not due to the importance of the subject—it was not due to those whose conducl was to be impeached, nor was it due to the Noble Earl himself, the the question should be discussed in such an irregular and unsatisfactry manner. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—The Noble Earl certainly gave notice yesterday. Lord BROUGHAM—Oh! I heard the notice given. The Noble Earl said that he would ask certain questions—he had done so already—he has been answered by my Noble Friend—lie has twice reps irked upon them, and surely that is enough.—( Laughter.) The Earl of CHARL E SALL E (with great vehe mence) said he rose in consequence of the personal allusions which had been made upon hint by the. Noble Marquis opposite. He begged leave to tell the Noble Marquis that he (she E srl of Charleville) was happy to meet him face to face in that House. He should be prepared very shortly, upon the receipt of peti tions from that counts', to . justify the course he had taken— the canduct of the Magistrates aul the resolution he had pr..)posed, and he must say that he wak star prised to find a Minister of the Crown rising from th,t bench to bring a charge r, : - yainst.hitn, for exercising his right as a British subject in petitioning the throne and both houses of Parliament. The Marquis of NO RMAN BY could not see any ground for the very great excitement under which the Noble Earl seemed to labour. He (the Mar quis of Normanby) had made no charge against the Noble Earl. It was the Noble Earl who bad made a charge against him, and who had stated that he would not appeal to the Government, because it had not done its duty._( Hear, hear.) All that he had stated was that he believed it would be found when the case came fully before their Lordships, that the Noble Earl had not that cause for complaint which he himself believed. The Noble Earl had found fault with his conduct, and there was nothing derogatory to the character or conduct of the Noble Earl and his friends, in his (the Marquis of Normanby) stating his desire, upon the very first opportunity, to meet that charge. The Earl of CH A RL E VIL L E acknowledged that he had recommended his friends to petition the Crown, and he felt satisfied that when the case came before their Lordships they would find that he had sufficient grounds for doing so. After a few words from the Marquis of LONDON DERRY, , The Earl of RO SS MORE was in hopes that there would have been no necessity for his intruding on their Lord ships' notice. When a subject. however, was brought for ward by the Noble Earl opposite, he should be prepared to meet him. lie belonged to the same county, and on behalf of the King's County he should be prepared to meet the Noble Lord face to face in that House. The conversation then dropped. The Marquis of L ANSDO WNE presented a petition from Wilts against any alteration in the Corn-laws. Messengers from the Commons brought up the Poor Relief Ireland Amendment Bill, which, on the motion of Lord DUNCANNON was read a first time. THE NAVY. The Earl of COLCHESTER in moving for returns respecting the state of the Navy, felt that he had some right to claim the indulgence of their Lordships. The subject was one of the most vital importance as it regarded the state of their naval defence. Ho would not have brought it forward, but finding that a Noble Friend of his who had given a notice on the subject had discharged it, and no other Noble Lord having taken it up, he felt it his duty to bring the matter before the House. It was probably in the re collection of their Lordships that shortly before the close of the last Session of Parliament, viz., on the 14th of August, during the discussion of a question relative to the state of America. a Noble Duke whom he did not then see in his place, made some remarks on the weak state of our ships on the coast of Mexico se id Buenos Ayres. On that occasion the Noble Earl at the head of the Admi ralty stated that if the Navy was not now in an adequate state for the public service, it was his fault, and he believed it would be found to be in as efficient a state as on any former occasion. Two such contradictory opinions from two such high authorities created a great sensation out of doors. Letters were written and published in the Newspapers, and pamphlets were printed, circulated, and those who took part against the system pursued by the Board of Admiralty, were denounced as factious ; their facts were questioned, and their state ments said to be unfounded. But in the present year there were two publications from two distinguished officers, both signalised in the public service—both supporters f her Majesty's Government, and one of them a Member of it. The first of these letters was addressed to a Noble Lord, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, by a most distinguished officer who is known as well for his gallantry and courage as he was for holding the most liberal opinions as, they were designated. His talents and courage were admitted on all hands, and he would refer particularly to his service, in Portugal. He need not more particularly specify the individual—it was Captain Charles Napier. That Gallant Officer addressed a letter to the Secretary of State, in which he pointed out what he conceived to be the very inadequate state of the naval defences of that country, as compared with the state of other naval ,Powers. He showed that our ships were few and ill manned, while, on the contrary, the Navy of Russia was in such a state that they might, whenever they pleased, come down upon our coast, destroy our arsenals, and sweep our commerce from the face of the seas. These were not his ( Lord Col chester's) opinions, but those of the naval officer wli he quoted.- The letter concluded by observing that whe ther the Noble Lord (the Secretary of State) would take it in good part or not he could not tell—that he Wil3 friend to the present Ministers, and wished to remain so; but as a naval officer he felt it his duty to point out the state of their maritime force. That was the statement of a most distinguished officer ; it was not originally published, but was addressed to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. With respect to the other part of the question, as to whether their ships were sufficiently armed or their crews sufficiently well practised in their duty, he would refer to a pamphlet from another Gallant Officer, a Member -of the Board of Admiralty, but whether he continued so at present, he (the Earl of Col chester) did not know. That Gallant Officer had thought fit to publish certain remarks on the work of Sir John Barrow, which was probably known to their Lordships as a defence compiled from official do cuments, and dated from the Admiralty. In that letter it was stated, that their ships were in a most inefficient state, and that such were the opinions of a large majority of the practical men of every grade in the service. Such were the opinions of gentlemen who were supporters and Members of her Majesty's Government. The Gallant Officer then went on to show that the reason why men would not enter ships of the line was because they were worked with the complement of small frigates—that men would not go into a vessel with 275 hands, a great portion of them being boys, to do the work of 350 hands. The Gallant Officer then went on to point out how these evils could be remedied. He then proceeded to state that those men who had served for twenty years in the Navy had for their good conduct received pensions, but under the present arrany,e enents those men if they re entered the service were de prived of that reward. The consequence was that they served in merchant-ships, and even in foreign merchant sh;ps, rather than on board her Majesty's vessels. What did the Government gain by that? Nothing. It was no economy. (Hear, hear, hear.) The place which those men would have occupied would be filled by others, and by men of an inferior description. The Go vernment by a false economy lost the services of efficient men, without gaining any advantage to that question. He trusted the Noble Earl at the head of the Admiralty would take this matter into his serious consideration, and he would not fail to see that that cause of dissatisfaction to our seamen should be removed, and that they should be allowed to keep their pensions. He would only trouble their Lordships with one more extract, which was this—" If we are to have a Navy which the world should respect, now is the time for arranging it perfectly—now is the time to make that selection of men that will carry the country through in the hour of trial." The writer also stated that other nations had made great improvements in their navies and were still going on im. proving. The evidence of the two gentlemen he had re ferred to sufficiently showed the inefficient state of the ships. What he intended to move for was, returns of the number of seamen and marines ordered by Parliament in 1818, 1823, 1828, and 1833 and subsequently, up to the present year; of the number of ships in commission in the same years; of the complement of such ships serving on the coasts of Great Britain and Ireland; the complement of marines ashore attached to the same ships, and of the marines serving abroad up the 31st of March, 1838. When those returns were laid on the table their Lordships would be able to judge of the comparative force kept up at different periods. The first period to which he would refer was the year 1792, and he did so because there had been ten years of peace, during which time our Navy had gradually decreased. The number of men then in the service were 16,000 ; that was previous to one of the most terrib'e wars this country had ever witnessed. We were not, therefore, because this country was in perfect peace, to go on decreasing the number of men, or delaying to in crease the number until it was too late. It appeared that in 1792 the ships stationed for the defence of our coasts consisted of eleven guard ships of the line, four frigates, six third-rates, fourteen sloops, fifteen cutters, and other small vessels. In those eleven guard-ships were 2,670 men. By calculating the complement of the smaller ves sels in the usual manner, the whole force of men then employed on the hoMe station, amounted to 7,000. By the official Navy Estimates published last year it appeared that we had for a similar service four guard ships, two fri gates of ten guns, two cutters, manned altogether by 2,000 men. If added to those another ship of the line might be considered on the home station, they would amount in all to 2,500. So that in 1792 when there were only 16,000 men in the service altogether, there were left for their own d e f e nce 7,000.—( Hear, hear.) In 1318 when our war establishments had been considerably reduced, and we were in a state of peace—he was not able to state precisely the number of seamen, but he believed there were about 13 000. At the close of the war we had gained many additional co lonies that required defence, so that a larger force was re quired than previous to the weer of 1793, and still for the home defence nine ships of the line. In 1823 the number was about the same—in 1828 it was also the same. In 1819 three ships of the line were considered sufficient fur all the foreign service oat in the Mediterraneen, one at in the time of .its abroad. at St. Helena. That was what the East Indies, and er.2 was then considered a suffietee:: force profound peace to protect our trade and int;*. - In 1833 this number was mater iall y reduced. They i e ,, e 4 then only three ships of the line, and a very small quantity of guard ships, and nal only were the home-course ships reduced, but the complements of the ships had been re ! duced also. In 1818 the guard ships were kept in order that they might be put to sea at a short notice. In that year six sail of the line were sent to sea in the course of a few days. In 1819 it was considered nec essar y to I raise a body cf seamen for what was called the Coast Blockade for Kent and Sussex. Afterwards it was thought right to' reduce the crew of the toiard ships in order to form this force. In 1831 this force woe aholi, , hed ; the Coast Goers' ..vas put an end to, and the men were sent oo hoard the line-of-baetle ships. In 1833 there only remained three first-rate ships, having on hoard 250 or 300 men. He now came to the state of the heme coerse for the present year. Ile believed that at the pre tient moment the °lily ships were the Howe, 1:20 guns and 185 men; the 13 ,. itannia, 1.20 goes and 183 men ; and the Royal Adelaide, with somewhere about the same number of guns and men, so that there were three first-rate ships, having less than 900 men among them—a number which was not a proper complement for even one. —( Hear.) There were also, he believed, one ship of the line the Edi nburgh, with 550 men, and a frigate with 36 guns, two br'gs and two cutters, all of them having together some hing less than 2,000 men ; and of all those ships there was only one that was fit to go to sea. With regard to the Foreign Service, he had read copious extracts from the work of a celebrated author on that subject; and, therefore, with re spect to that service, it was not necessary for him to do flu ther than to state, with reward to the three Adiairel's ships stationed ,it the C.ipe of Good Hone and North America, those ships had been pit forward among the sail which they lied been told by different publications were the de fence of this coletrv. The Wallace, one of the vessels, it was trite, had been put upon a different footing, but the Melville, at the Cape of Good Hope, had been sent to sea withoat a proper complement of men. That vessel I had 'neon sent. out with only 432 men, and so strictly had ' the economy been carried out, that the officers were paid, 4 not according to the rate of the ship, but only about one. I fourth of the rate.—( Hear, hear.) That, he thought their I Lordships would say, would not hold out very . great 4 encouragement. In the Mediterranean, he believed, we had a larger force than was necessary. There was one ship of the line there, two frigates, several sloops of war, and about 2,000 marines He would now compare the naval force of this country with that of other countries. Sir I John B irrow, in his wo:k, had given his comparison be tween the navies of Russia, France, arid England. In I 1823 Russia had 42 sail of the line, and 50 frigates, while I England in that year had only 33 sail of the line, arid 43 frigates. In 1839 Russia had 98 sail of the line, and 43 frigates. Russia, therefore, had increased considerably, and the number of men in proportion, while England had decreased. It appeared from the work of Sir John B ir row, that the total number of ships in the 'Navy of Eng land in commission were-21, sail of the line, 9 frigates, and 23 steam vessels, and there were 3 guard ships, with less than one-third of their crew, and less than that number of guns. France had in commission 10 sail of the line, 16 frigates, and two armed steamers. The ships of the line of Franco Were standing almost close to their own shores in the Me diterranean, while the vessels of this country were scat tered about. Russia had 40 sail of the line in commission, and 24 frigates. It was further to be remembered, that France and Russia, from the mode which they adopted of manning the navy, could at any time increase the manning of their ships. They were always kept ready to be em ployed when wanted, and the men were always trained to all the duties of soldiers. This country, on the contrary, as regarded her ships in commission, had to trust to.volun tary enlistment, so that it was generally three months before they could be put into a state fit to go to sea. He thought their Lordships would see from what he hed stated that our force in commission, scattered alt over the world as it was, with only four ships at home, was much less efficient than the force in commission in either France or Russia. Having given this comparative statement of our force, it was necessary for him to call the attention of the House to what was likely to happen if a sudden call for the service of our fleet came upon us. He had no wish to say any thing exaggerated of - Russia. lie was willing to give to the Emperor of Russia the credit of being a wise, prudent, and just Prince, who would not needlessly keep up a war with any country. But when he saw that that country, which had the greatest fleet, within only fourteen days' sail of us, with 28 sail of the line, and 24 frigates, we having but four sail of the line and one frigate, and those ships 300 miles apart; he could not think that if any sud den cause of war arose we should be in a situation to meet and repel an attack with such a force—not only from the smallness of the number of our ships, but also from the circumstance of its taking a considerable time to fit out those we had and put others into commission ; for the purpose of doing which we should either have to trust to voluntary enlistment, or pot that into force which their Lordships would certainly not unnecessarily put into force, viz., impress. It might be argued, as it had been argued, that we should have time, because war was preceded by negociations, manifestations, and declarations. If we looked to history, we should find that manifestations and declarations had been very often accompanied with powerful hints. If one looked hack to 1717, to the fleet that was destroyed by Sir George Byng, this would appear pretty manifest. Again, if we remembered when Commodore Martin was before Naples, he was instructed to send a message that if the troops were not withdrawn he should batter down the forces in an hour's time. That message was delivered, and at the end of an hour a convention was signed, with drawing the troops. He thought that in 1801, when the fleet was in the North it entered the Sound, and passed the Sound, he believed, without knowing whether there would be war or peace, and in a very few days afterwards Copenhagen was destroyed. In 1807 Copenhagen was again bombarded and taken possession of without a notice of war (Hear, hear, hear.) Again, at the time of the Dutch bombardment of 1832, he believed that on the same day the Proclamation was issued, the fleet was put into a state of sailing. So that there had been Many instances of war without many very convenient notices afforded by manifestoes or delarations. His Noble Friend near him reminded him of a case that came nearer home, viz :—the burning of our ships in the Medway, in 1767 ; and that was not during the time of peace. A ne gociation had been carried on for some time previously, from which it was thought that , things were settled ; so much se that the Sovereigiedisl-noteleink itaaeeessary that there should be a powerful fleet kept •up. The-historian Hume had told us that in Charles Il.7sitime,,by.pot.:acting in time the country had been exposed to. ea,- greater affront than it bad ever received. Hee !Might': quote , more instances, if it were stot..tedieVie - Of aggression even within the last seven ''• the part of the French fleet. Supposiufg - th'ere;:ivas,nOt an effective force at present in the Medway, there • would be no difficulty in completely blockading our ports--( Hear) — and in sending a fleet along our eastern coast; and under the present circumstances if that were to happen it would take at least a month before we could send out a fleet. Now, he would remind their Lordships of the effect of a month's blockade upon this country. We had always a great number of merchant-ships bringing over the riches of other countries here, and all those shops with their cargoes would be at the mercy of those who had possession of the seas. If the ports were blockaded there could be no im ports ; and by a paper laid on the table of that House a few days ago, relating to the duties paid on goods brought in by navigation in 1833, it appeared, that the amount of duty on.import goods was very near 23,000,0001. a year. The blockade for one month, therefore, would deprive the revenue of nearly 2,000.0001. That was not all—the export of British manufactures amounted to about 43,000,000/. a-year, which was about 3,600,000/. a month, and the manufacturers would have that quantity of goods thrown upon their hands by a blockade of one month. Now he thought if manufacturers complained so much of the restrictions against the importation of foreign corn, they would have more reason to complain if they were deprived of the opportunity of exporting 3,600,000/. worth of goods for a month. But lawn it was said we had got a very fine fleet in the Mediterranean sea. So there might be, but it would take a-week to send that fleet to Malta, even if the fleet was assembled there, and it t w o ' o u 1 E d n gi t r a t k f l d e w a h n u h l I w m o o u n l t d h tu t o a k etake five it w e f r o o k m s Malta But then it might be said, go into the city and you may at any moment get as many steamers as you like. He would first call upon their Lordships just to consider the expense of hiring those steamers, because, if it was expected that they were to be hired for the purpose of coming into collision with other vessels, he apprehended they would be got for very little less than their full price. But were they fitted for war ? or were they built of sufficient strength twooucladr7oguns From ry d ? tennitill steamerslie b h u ac i l lt he su ard, their ffieiently Lordships strong to carry a gun, such as ought to be carried by a man-of-war. Then what were they to do? The question seemed to him to be very simply answered. It was merely a question of pounds, shillings, and pence. Let their Lordships increase our home force to what it formerly was. Let us have ten or eleven sale of the line, fully manned, or manned suffi ciently to be enabled to put the fleet to sea at a very short notice. The cost of keeping eleven such ships up, as there would be 6,000 more men required, would be 450.000/. per annum. If their Lordships could ensure against the risk of losing the amount per month of what he had stated, he did not think the country, as the Noble Earl had said, would be unwilling to grant additional supplies, if it were thus shown, that the Navy required it. But there would be other advantages from keeping up a force of ten or eleven sail of the line. We should be able to re-inforce any part abroad at a moment, where from any natural cause, such as hurricanes, and so on, in the West Indies, or other places, it was impossible to expect to keep an efficient force for any length of time. We should also be able to send them -to sea every year to exercise, where the officers would see some practice. He would venture to sly that a great many of the under officers of our Navy never saw practice ; for although they might get our ships into order within a comparatively short time, he was afraid that some of the officers would nut be found to be very efficient in practice, at least fur a time. There would be another good effect from the course, and that would be keeping up the national feeling it, favour of our Navy. Any one going down to Woolwich would he more likely to see ships fitted up for carrying out convicted felons, than for carrying out our Navy. The last time he was down to see a ship of war, thousands came from all parts to see it, and it was regarded as quite a new sight. He had no.v gone through the different points with which lie intended to trouble their Lordships. Ile thought from the statements he had made the House could levelly fail to be of opinion that many of our ships abroad were not properly manned ; that the num leer of our ships at home were too few, and that the complements were too small, and that Government ought to be called upon to make some increase in respect of what he had stated. Thanking their Lordships for the in dulgence with which they had heard him, he begged to move for the returns mentioned in his motion. Lord MINTO could assure their Lordships that he had great satisfaction in discussing and in answering, in the pre sence of their Lordships, whatever might be alleged aeainst the a dministration of the Navy. From the whole tenor of the Noble Loi.cl's address one would really have imagined that he ( Lord M. ) stood there having greatly reduced and impaired the naval resources of the country-- that the state of the fleet at this moment, instead of being more powerful and more numerous than it had ever been known to be at any former the time of peace, had been reduced p eri od ."ere unable to provide for the so low that we raetty "se Noble L or d, ordinary service of the country. ... on a former evening, disclaimed all party motive; in tee._ proceedings. He gave Noble Lords entire credit for their tedief that such was the case; but'there was nothing so difficult as to ascertain what the true motives of one's own conduct were. It was very difficult indeed to trace the workings of one's own motives ; and he would beg of those TIE SUN, LONDON, SAW - RDA Y,----EVENING EDITION, FEBRUARY a, 839. Noble-Lords - to be quite cur" that no party motives were really litsl.ing - at-the bottom of these-proceedings. When he found that ve had, he would not say twenty-one sail of the line, fur, as the Noble Lord had said, two out of those ranked as fourth rates ; hut when we had nioeteen sail of the line in commission, and were told of the weakness of the fleet —of the danger to which our country was exposed_ ' from the want of any protection against impending innova tions from ali (pesters ; and when it was recollected that in is3s, when the Navy was in as extremely different state in point of numbers ; but then he_ was not aware that the Noble Lord had caused their Lordships to hear any_ thing of the complaints whiah he now brought forward of the want of the British naval strength. lie would now go into the, general statement of the Noble Lord, and he believed the whole of his argument was founded on that great error that they must keep a war establishment in time of peace. They had then been told of a want of preparati o n aga i nst i nvas i on . I t was t rue th a t they were not prepared against invasion—they were not prepared against it, nor did he Isnew when, in a time of profound peace, that country had thought it necessary to be so prep ired.—( Hear, hear.) II iwever, it seemed that the Noble Lord thought that he ( Earl Minto) had been too parsimonious, and had not applied to Parliament for the assistance that would haye placed him in a different posi tion. Before he:4aroceeded to go over in detail the Noble Lord's statements, he thought it might make the . subject more intelligible to their Lordships if he stated shortly what their naval force now was, and how it was disposed, comparing it with their foree and its disposition at other times. They had in the Mediterranean at the present mo ment 9 sail of the line, but that was from accidental cir cumstances, which occasioned there being one ship there more than the usual number . ; but even allowing that the 9 sail were permanently occupied there, they had 10 sail of the line otherwise employed, of which one was a flag-ship (and he begged to call the Noble Lord's attention to the fa-t that he was exclu ling flag-ships from his statement), one of which was the flag-ship of the officer commanding on the West India station, and exclusive of that flag-ship they bad 9 ships of the line disposable for home service. That these ships were - not all at home at the present mo• talent was perfectly true, 'out he conceived that there was no use in having this disposable force lying idle and with out turning it to some account. That these ships were disposable was proved from the fact that when occasion did arise last. year which rendered -it necessary to embark troops for the Colonies, no less than seven ships-of-the line were employed in the transportation of troops either from that country to America, or from the West Indies to America, or from one part of the American Colonies to :mother. During the time these ships were so occupied, undoubtedly they were not at horde, and formed no part of their defence—.hat was if any foreign power sneditsted an attack upon them—they had not those ships, there being no likelihood of any such intention on the part of any foreign Power. Having discharged that duty, they were now stationed partly in America and the West ladies, partly at Lisbon and partly in their own ports, and they had at that moment a disposable force—they could at hat moment lay their hands upon nine ships of the line, besides those permanently employed at diffsrent stations abroad. That was a force of which there was no example at any former period.—( Hear, hear, bear.) The Noble Lord said that when he had got down to Portsmouth he saw nothing lying at Spithead. That was very possible, and he (Earl Minto) was not desirous that when ships were iu commission they should be lying there. He held in his hand a return of the naval force on the home station and on the north coast of Spain, with the expAimental squadron which had been employed for the four last years. There was, in the first place, per manently stationed at the different ports, three flag-ships, and upon these he would say a word presently. In 1336 they had in port three ships of the line, in addition to these flag-ships. In 1837, four ships of the line ; and in 1838, four, making seven ; and at Lisbon there were two stationed (and these were always considered as within reach), making in the whole, nine. In 1836 they had also an experi mental squadron of five sail of the line. The Noble Lord complained that they had not eight or nine guard ships for the protection of their ports. The system upan which he (Earl Minto) proceeded since he came into o ffice was that it was better to have eight or nine active, well equipped, well disciplined, well armed, and well manned ships, fit for sea, than to have the same number of half armed and half manned ships in the ports._ ( Hear, hear.) That was his opinion. The Noble Lord seemed to think that nine guard ships were much more efficient for the protection of the coasts, much wore ready for any sudden call made on them, than the nine which were ready to proceed to sea if they happened to be in or near port, at a day or a week's notice. He would now tel! the Noble Lord how their force actually stood on the Ist of January and the Ist of July in each year on the home station. In 1823 they had nine guard ships, or half manned ships; in 1831 they bad nine guard ships and one efficient ship, while on the Ist of July they had only seven; in 1832 they had only two ships of the line and one guard ship ; in 1833 they bad five sail of the line and two guard ships ; in 1834 there were three ships of the line in port ; in 1835 there was not one, for in that year the guard ships were not sea going vessels, they were not capable of proceeding to sea. There was not one there either as a guard ship or as a sea-going ship. In January, 1836, they had three guard ships ; and in July, 1836, they had 10, of which three were guard ships. In 1837 they had four ships of the line and three guard ships. In 1833 they had four ships of the lice; and in 1839 they had six sail of the line and three guard ships. He (Lord Minto) did not attach any value to these things, because the number in port was merely accidental, and others might be cruising within such limits as would enable them to obtain their services when required. The result of the comparisons he had made was this, that during the years 1821 to 1823, they had never more than ten or twelve ships of the line in commission ; that from 1824 to 1826, they had sixteen in conrnission, a large proportion of which were guard hips; that in 1827 they had seventeen sail of the line that in 1828 there were fifteen sail, of the - fine in commission ; that in 1830 there were eighteen' salt - of the line in commission; in 1831 there were fottiteeii ., elit , Of the , line in, commis sion; in 1832 there - Wet=e ,, ,eleiten r sail of -the line in commission; in. 1t333 there were eleven sail of the line in comrnision, three of them guard ships, in port. In 1834 there were ten sail of the line in commis sion, and in 1835 there were eleven sail of the line in commission, and he now came to the decline of their naval force. In 1836 there were twelve sail of the line in com mission ; in 1837 there were twenty sail-of-the-line in commissson ; and in 1838, excluding these three flag ships, there were nineteen sail-of-the-line in commission; at the present moment they had nineteen sail-of-the-line in commission, and of these nineteen ships-of-the-line nine were entirely disposable to any service whatever. It was not without the greatest difficulty that he had been able when be first came to the Admiralty to keep up the Navy in its efficient state. For many years past there had been a de mand for economy and retrenchment to so great an extent that it was impossible for any Government to exercise quite freely its own discretion. When he contrasted the present state of things, as compared with the mech smaller expense (he was enabled to infer) with former periods, there was much matter for congratulation. He imputed no blame or censure to those who went before him—he made the com parison merely for his own vindication, and to show that he had some difficulty in raising the amount of expenditure that was necessary. If Noble Lords looked at the annual esti mates, they would see what reductions had been made. Every succeeding Government had taken credit to itself for practising economy, and he felt that it was impossible for him, nor would it have been prudent for him, to make a great show of expenditure, but he carefully, quietly, and efficiently applied himself to effect whatever improvements were within his reach in all the different naval departments. Taking into consideration the im paired resources of the country, and the reductions that had taken place in all the naval establishments, in their dockyards, in their votes for stores, and their votes for men, and he believed it was about the year 1830, a very short time before his Noble Friend opposite quitted the Admi ralty, it was resolved, and lie believed prudently, that con siderable reductions should take place in the establishment of dockyards, and that the number of workmen should be reduced to 6,000. The men were at that time employed five days in the week, and it was intended, be believed, that in effecting the reduction they should be placed on the full six days' labour in the week. There was also a system of task and job work, which was undoubtedly (although he gave no opinion in the abstract), as far as the work went, a much more productive system. The question was entirely whether they did not lose in the material, but there was no . doubt gordthe the tNhaevysysßteomard had produced a greatdeal not carried that w as issued, and the reduction wa s accordingly made. The n u mber being reduced to 6,0 00 they w ere p ut u p on five days labour, and upon day's wag es. The y had therefore one day less in the week and less produ c t iv e l a bou r. The p l l i a n T into ore. effect, Finding an tn fact of that reduction was seriously felt, and it became barely possible to provide for the current demands of the Establishment. The first circumstance which attracterl his attention was the difficulty of finding cordage, the amount of rope which it was possible to make in the year not amounting to more than half a year's consumption. He felt then that it was necessary to • put the work upon a more efficient footing. Measures were taken to relieve the shipwrights of a great deal of the work not properly belonging to them. A great number of additional labourers were employed. Arti ficers were hired to do the work of the yard, and in t h e course of time a great advance was made in the q uantity of work obtained, and the quantity of stores pro.- and in addition to the believed at that moment duced. But the demand increased also very rapidly, for their Lordships must be perfectly aware that the demands for seven additional ships of the line, must have formed a very seriaue draft upsa their labours. Well, all these demands had been supplied, the stores were supplied in had demonstration ships, they thirteen and about twenty-six i ion requiring no • other ships hi commission, repairs whatever. There were now, in addition to the fleet at sea, stores, tthweentnyl-oosnte ssaatiislfaocftotrhye lminaen, bowsprits, masts, rigging,. topsails, for more than thirty sail of the line, besides a considerable. number of masts, sets of sails, and general stores in reserve. He should now words in reference to the say a few blockade service he ", the suppression of the guard ships, and on the adoption of a new system f or t h e protection of the revenue, it was supposed the Navy had lost an iad vantagen not having the services of th e coast guar d f or occasional duties. le believed the value of the coast blockade, was very much overrated, it being estimated as containing from 2,400 to 2.700 able seamen. But front Sir J. Graham be understood tint when onthessuppression of that force it was proposed to draft these men into ships in active service, there were not mere than 800 whom the officers wculd receive as able seamen. As for the CO tst guard lie believed the Constitution did not give them a right over - the services of the men. As affecting the interests of the Navy this s) stern WAS disadvantageous; but with reference to the protection of the revenue it was a service of great import ance ; for some time the Govertenent had had i t i n contem plation to create a new medium,av through which qddithrai men might be supe N lied to the Y, and the sytcrn would , • The Government . h dno a onger t ser soon ue testers, sss • - , , vices of the caast b lockade, ancl,S they Oontur.ot transfer the is:en from the coast guard, they had adopted the substi.ute of placing those ships hitherto in ordinary in comtnision. Their Lordships p erha p s were not generally ,aware that ships in ordinary used to be taken care of by war ) rant officers on half pay, who received certain emoluments. A great portion of these men were so decrepid that they were scarcely able to take care of themselves, let alone ships, and it was necessary to hire men to help them in their duty. Now those deerep:cl veterans were supplanted by vig(•rous officers, taken from ships in active service; and an able body of seamen, at all times available, and amounting to 1,400 men, under them There were as many men in those ships in commission as would do to fill up the complement of each of the first-rates he bad already mentioned. Ile should now state the corn r.rative number of seamen voted in several years. From 1818 to 1823 the number was from 15,000 to 23,000. From 1824 to 1829 the number was from 20,000 to 23,000. In 1831 it was 21,000. In 1832 and 1333 it wat reduced to 18,000. In 1834 it was further reduced to 17,500, with the ad. dition of 1,000 bays. In 1835 a further reduction took place of 2,000 men. making an aggegate of 15,000. In 1836 the vote was for 22,500, exclusive of ships in ordinary put in corn. mission, which had 2,200 men. Having thus shown by this retrospective statement that our present comparative force was of a superior character, he should briefly revert to the maritime power of foreign States. It had been said that the French had 30 or 40 ships of the line in contni.- sion ; the number, however, was only 8 A great deal had been said shout the Russian fleet. But it should be remembered that that Power hail always made it a fashion to make a parade of its Navy, Its crews, however, were not regular sailors. But he would ask whether it was the business of England to be expected during the time of peace to keep a large force on foot, capable of resisting an invasion that might be apprehended from 27 or 28 sail of the Russian line, unless there was something in our relations with Russia to excite alarm on our side? But so long as we had the strongest assurances in the desire of that Power to maintain peace. and so long as we could reflect that a recent delicate affair had been got over with out disturbance, he did not see why this country should come forward with eight or ten sail of the line more, in addition to the nine sail already out. He begged leave to assure their Lordships that we had thirteen sail of the line ready for sea at the shortest notice. H. would now . . proceed io state to their Lordships in what the present system of laying out ships in ordinary was practically much more economical and satisfactory than the system formerly pursued. Formerly ships had their masts up and looked in a forward state, but no' they were without their masts, and he ( Earl Minto) had been recommended to this plan by some of the most eminent professional men in the country; for he masts would thenceforward be in a much sounder condition ; and the ship would be equipped within a week of the time required under the late method. On looking over the stores for 1835, he found th It only half our line of-battle ships were serviceable. He would give their Lordships the exact state of the stores in the various years since 1831. They amounted in 1831 ... and ... 1832 .. to ... £572.000 1832 ... ... 1833 ... 523,000 1833 ... ... 1834 ... ... 434,000 1834 ... ... 1833 ... 465,000 1835 ... ... 1836 ... ... 384,000 1836 1837 575,000 1838 ... 1839 ... ... 593,000 thereby showing that now we wes e in a better situation than in any of the previous years. The Noble Lord also had complained of the under-manning of the Navy. Now he could assure their Lordships that the Navy was now as well manned as it had been for a lengthened series of years, and during the last year had been greatly increased. Great improvements had been made in the armament of the ships, and such improvements that they would require a considerable increase in the quantity of men, but most decidedly, he said, it was not just to say that in the greater proportion of ships in com mission .the complements of men were smaller —it was not just to say they were not larger than in any one year since 1831. It had been made a matter of reproach that there were no new ships in the service, but he was anxious to state that it had been the system to avoid as much as pos sible the launching of ships, as they could be preserved much easier and much better in the slips than in the water. They must, however, be launched soon, in con sequence of the ruinous state of many of the slips, and the necessity for repairs in many of the slips afloat. Ile should be most anxious at all times to meet the utmost scrutiny into all the details of his department, and he begged again to remind their Lordships that after having been charged for months with having brought down the fleet to a dangerous state, it would not be considered that he bad been courting popularity by having avoided stating the real facts until the present time, acid he might with some pride say that there never has been the day that this country had seen the same number of ships in commission at sea in a state of profound peace, besides the thirteen station ships which were ready to be commissioned at a moment's notice. It had been com plained most loudly that they had sent out Admirals in ships unfitted to their command ; now in all those cases that had been cited, except one, it was at the earnest re quest of the Admirals themselves that they had been sent out in two deckers. Ile had ro possible objection to the returns asked for, but one he would give with reluctance, which was the return of the disposition of the force at the present time ; if the Noble Lord, however, pressed for it, it would be made, but he trusted that it never would be drawn into a precedent. He did not at that moment re collect any other topic which had been alluded to by the Noble Lord. He trusted the House would excuse him for detaining them at such length, but he trusted that he had convinced them that the fears enter tained for the safety of the country were groundless. Lord COLCHESTER only asked for the return of the distribution of the ships, because the Noble Earl had him self laid on the table of the House a return of the distri bution of the ships in 1792. Earl DE GREY said as so much allusion had been made to the state of the Navy during the short time be sat at the Admiralty Board he trusted their Lordships would indulge him for a very few words. At the time he joined the Administration of the Navy he found that 26 000 men and boys had been voted for the service of the former year, but he also .found, that of those actually in service there were no more tha n 24,600 teen and boys. As th e' Government of that 'dailiaiited'ilo More than those actual! ) , in service they asked only-for a vote of -25,000. He would, how eve,, be frank with their Lordships, and state that his decided opinion was that the number was much too small ; he felt sincerely that it was so, but the clamour that raged threughout the country for economy compelled the Go vernment to yield their own wishes, as they felt quite cer tain that had they proposed a larger number it would not have and conceded w was s t o still. othem. However, he was of that opinion Lord MELVILLE—As their Lordships' as well as the public mind was much agitated upon this subject, and as he bad been so long connected with the administration of the Navy, he felt that he would not be justified in his own mind if he abstained from addressing a few words to their Lordship; on that occasion. He begged their Lordships most distinctly to understand there would not be the slightest spark of private feeling.—( Hear, hear.) He had been long enough acquainted with the administration of naval affairs to know that as regarded the expenses the Chancellor of the Exchequer was the controlling power over the Lords of the Admiralty. If the Lords of the Admiralty were allowed to do not only what they thought proper, but what was absolutely necessary, the estimates would be much larger than they were in general. He never held the First Lord of the Admiralty as liable in any way excep as a Member of the Government. He (Lord M.) did not charge the Government with any want of ships ; he believed that was not the charge brought by his Noble Friend. The charge was that in the distribution of our ships our own ports and our own shores were left too wholly unguarded. He:( Lord Melville) fully believed that the old practice in this respect was much the better ; and in his opinion in departing from it her Majesty's Govern ment had incurred a deep responsibility. Never, he be lieved, since the peace, had our Navy been in such a dilapidated state at home ; and it was no satisfaction to the people of this country that we had plenty of ships abroad. The question was as to the distribution of the force. If it were only for the gratisfaction of the people, we ought always to have a large naval force to guard our own shores and ports, for they had always placed much confidence in the naval force. If he understood the question properly, there was but one disposable ship in the ports of this country , for he had not been able to follow his Noble Friend, nor was be aware of the manner in which he had made out that there were nine disposable ships at home. At one period the Admiralty had been enabled to send out a large force of in fantry in ten days in line of battle ships. How long would it take his Noble Friend? NNhy they could not do so within a period of some months. If they could not dis tribute their means so as to keep up an adequate force at home and provide abundantly for their force abroad, they must"go to Parliament fur snore. His Noble Friend behind him had talked of additional money and men being required. If they excluded the marines, he ( Lord M.) thou g ht that probably 2,000 men would be suff i cient, and that, as some additional ships would be required, probably 100,0001. would be the outside of the expense necessary. At the same, he had some doubt how far it would be necessary to augment the force at all. He bad seen, under the autho rity of a Gallant Captain, who was a few days ago a Lord of the Admiralty, a statement in a pamphlet, with which he entirely concurred. At the same time, he hoped the practice of Members of Boards, and Secretaries of Boards, publishing their opinions in such a way, would not become common, because he thought the promulga tion of those opinions had better be confined to meetings of their superiors in their Board-rooms. They had heard a great deal about the Russsian Fleet, but he did not think they had heard anything sufficient to induce them to keep up so large a force as they had in the Me. diterranean. The force there ought to bo sufficient. He did not apprehend anything from any alarms about any speedy attack on the part of the Russian fleet. The state of the two countries was very well known, and it was im possible to suppose that adequate means could not be immediately taken to repel any attack from that fleet. The Noble Lord opposite, and his Noble friend behind him, had adverted to certain statements in the pamphlet to which he had alluded as to the decrease of able seamen. Their Lordships might depend upon it that it was abso lutely incumbent on this country in all times hereafter to keep up a larger force even in time of peaco than had been thought necessary by the Government. Their Lordships must not forget that the state of education in the Navy was falling off, and they could not now get the number of thorough-bred seamen they used to get. The coasting trade wat 41moit gone for seamen; the Warn- Ve4sels had nearly monopolized it. The only part of the coasting trade that remained was the coal trade, and unless a larger proportion of Naval men were kept up now there would lot b 0 the means in case of any emergency of reinforcement, which before were at command. There was a statement in a p a per on navigation on their Lordships' table, which curiously , coincided with his views, and it would be seen by a re ference to that part of the paper that whil e it s h owe d a little increase in th e foreign trades rather, a look in downward; of casting tcaqe, aR . ro44oeci able scallion thre yNs obe drawn fconq a most un foriurite eonelusiow et4r the Admiralty would pit into service snffieigni number of able seamen to r,',untcri..alanea the loss of being able to obtain a supply from the coasting trade as formerly he could not pretend to say, but sure he was . that the coirtr; mus t think that a larg er prqjtiont was eequired. • I There was( a little circumstance averted to by his Noble itriend behind him upon which he differed with him, and which was also alluded to by the Noble Lord op posite—be meant the custom of allowing seamen to serve while they held pensions. The object of their own custom was to have as many available men as possible ; and it was very obvious that there was no more expense in paying a man on - board a Queen's ship than in paying the men on board any other ship. There was then no want of ~ble. iea men ; and, indeed, by that system, instead of one, they had two men, at, no additional expense. There was then tio difficulty in basing the best of men for active service, and keeping a sufficient number of others iii reserve. Inre ference to the coast blockade, that was not kept up on ' the footing on which it had been, and he hoped measures would be taken to restore that important source of supply for the Navy upon any emergency. From that source, in former days, they were enabled at any time to procure a respectable support. Then as to the Dockyards, and the mode in which the work there was carried on, a great many years ago the custom in the Dockyards was to employ men at day wages, but subsequently it was the con stant and invariable endeavour, both at the Admiralty and Navy Boards, to keep up a system of pay ment by the piece for every kind of work that could be done. It was the ob ject of the Surveyors to calculate the work upon that prin ciple with the greatest minuteness. But it was evident that the consequence was that a great deal more work was done in one day under that system than was done by the same number of men who were employed at day wages. The best proof of this was, that in all private ship-build ing yards the ship -masters invariably employed their men at job prices. That system, however, in the Dockyard, was charged about seven or eight eight years ago, which he believed to be a most unfortunate change, and unless it were restored again to the job system there never would be that satisfaction afforded which was before experienced. It was impossible for that Officer, with all his great talent and ingenuity, to superintend the Dockyard effectually, as he had not been brought up to that business. The con sequence was that workmen were not employed the same number of hours as before. The practice now was to em ploy them so many days in the week, because there were more shipwrights than they-had employment for. Ile was very unwilling that any of those shipwrights should be dis. missed. He thought that they should be let die off, and t' give them employment five days in the week. He had employed some of them as carpenters and as labourers, and he had found them willing to submit to every privation. It should he remembered that you could not get shipwrights as easily as you could common carpenters and joiners, there fore he was desirous to keep up the cumber in order that there should be a sufficient number of shipwrights for the went of the State, whatever emergency might arise. Earl MINTO said that he had a large disposcable force at home. There were six sail of the line in the whole squadron, two of which were at Lisbon, and two others were temporarily absent. Earl HA RD WICKE was very glad to hear the ex planation that had just been given. He did not think it was necessary to keep up a great number of ships and their complements because Russia had 37 sail of the line. The Noble Earl then referred to his opinions respecting the reduction of the guard ships in in 1826. He would not support a system of false economy. His Lordship then went iota the state of our foreign relations; and afterwards alluded to the state of the dock. yards in 182 ti, stating that our furce then was 20 sail of the line, and 18 brigs. It was his opinion that when ships were put into commission they ought to be fitted out for sea as soon as possible. The Noble Earl stated that he had 13 demonstration ships perfectly ready for sea, and in a perfect state of equipment. It was also known that in the pamphlet of Sir John Barrow the same state ment was repeated, that there were 13 demonstration ships cady for sea, and 30 sail of the line.. Earl M I NTO—I did not say so. Earl HARDWICK E—l don't refer to the Noble Earl. Earl MINTO —I beg the Noble Lord's pardon—l thought he was quoting me. Earl HARD W 1 CKE was quoting a great authority. He was quoting from the pamphlet of a gentleman who bad the means of looking into and referring to every document in their office, and the following was that gentleman's statement—" Whenever the necessity should actually arise, and that Parliament should vote 50,000 men, the Admiralty would have no difficulty in adding 30 sail of the line to the 21 already in commission, for which additional 30 sail the masts, sails, and yards, and every necessary article of gear, were in complete readiness. The Noble Earl had corroborated that statement. Now it appeared that in Portsmouth, on Jan. 28 last, not a very long time ago, they had fJur demonstration ships, as they were called, and supposed to be. There had been five, one of which, the Ganges, had been sent abroad, and he would take the Ganges as an instance of the readiness of these ships. The Ganges was brought forward and examined, it being su - posed that she was ready in every particular. It was found that she wanted caulking—that was nothing. Next it was found necessary to take her into dock to clean her bottom, and then it was found that she wanted to be new coppered—such was the state of one of these ships. He would then take the next ship, the Revenge. She had no foremast. On the 28th January the foremast was not hooped, but the contractors were making the hoops, and they would be ready in a few days. It was clear from this that the mainmast was not finished. The other ships were stated to be ready ; for aught he knew that might be the case, but from the example of the Ganges he much distrusted their capability of going to sea. At Plymouth they had five demonstration ships—the Caledonia, the Im pregnable, the Agincourt, the Belleisle, and the Imprac ticable—but would it be believed that there was not a single suit of sails for a line of battle ship in that port ? Why were they not completed ? It might be said what was wanting?—there was not a single foretopsail, main topsail, and only one mizentopsail—the most important sails, and without which a vessel could not go to sea. They had foretopgallant sails, studding sails, and all the other , sails, but these important ones wore vaulting; Ele.believed they were working very hard to get them up, and at Ply mouth they had sixteen new sets of rigging. He would go again to Portsmouth, and with respect to spars the deficiency was equally obvious, and even those demonstra tion ships had not a topsail-yard--they had not a single spar over the lower mast—they bad neither topsail-yards nor topgallant sail yards. He would pass from the demon stration ships, which were ready for sea, to the 30 sail of the line which were stated to be perfectly ready—he believed there were 20 sail of the line preparing, and be bad no doubt the Noble Lord would have them ready soon —but at Portsmouth there were in store sails for a first rate complete, and for a third-rate complete only. There were in store rigging for two first-rates, for two second-rates, one third-rate, and two frigates; but there was neither gun gear fitting, nor any thing to mount cannon, except the carriages and guns at the ordnance. There was not a suit of sails for a second-rate, beyond the demonstration ships at Portsmouth—there was not a single suit of sails fur a frigate in Portsmouth Dockyard—not one. There was neither a single suite of sails for a sloop or a brig—there were two suits for a first-rate (including the Brittania), ot:e suite for a third rate, and one making for the Dublin. Where then were the thirty sail-of-the line that was stated to be ready ? He was perfectly satis fied that if they could fit out seven sail-of-the-line it was the utmost. At Plymouth there was not a complete suit of sails in store for a sloop or a brig, except the Acorn in commission. He was so puzzled with his notes that he oas not inclined to trouble their Lordships much further . He had shown quite enough, however, of the system - - of demonstration equipment. On the 31st of January, at Plymouth, and the 28th of January at Portsmouth, such was the state of these demonstration vessels.—( Hear. ) It was quite clear that the establishment had been very much let down, and the exertions that bad taken place had been called forth by the notice which was taken on the subject out of doors. Ile hoped he had satisfied their Lordships that their Naval force was not so disposed as to be fit fur the defence of the country ; that those demon stration ships were only demonstrative of weakness ; and that the thirty-one sail-of. the-line which were stated to Le ready equipped would be ready two or three months hence.—( Hear, hear.) The Earl of RIPON had no pretensions to address their Lordships on such a subject, but he would refer tp the alteration which had been made during the last few years for protecting the revenue by what was called the Coast Guard service. The effect of that alteration was to remove from the immediate controul of the Admiralty a body of seamen who might ho used for very important purposes ; and it was due to the Noble Lord and his Col leagues to state the ground upon which the alteration had taken place. It had been said by persons competent to form a judgment on the matter, that in affording security against the illicit introduction of foreign goods it did not work so satisfactorily as had been antioipated ; and although it was true that a number of men and officers might be rendered available upon any emergency, the suddenly abstracting that protection from the coast would occasion great mischief. It was accordingly suggested that it would be more economical to revert to what was called the Coast Guard system; and in that view it was thought of great importance to offer to the naval service advantages which they did cot before possess, and it was said that the consequence would be, that a groat many volun teers would be induced to enter the Navy. Their Lord ships would recollect at that time the subject of impress ment had excited a good deal of attention, although that Government (and he hoped there never would be a Go vernment which would differ with them on that point) had recognised the right and power of impressment, being con vinced, that if it was once abandoned, the downfall of the British Navy would be inevitable—( Hear, bear)--yet policy and prudence justified them by every means to in duce volunteers to enter the Navy. The plan therefore proposed was this—that the whole of the persons appointed to the coast guard, instead of the former system of appointment under the Treasury or Board of Customs, should biz, under the Admiralty ; and that every person so employed, whether officer or seaman, should be a naval man. It was arranged that every captain when he went to sea should be called upon •so note ilia oondue of every individual in his and out of there, after three years' se. vice, who were most re tri,akahle for steadiness and trustworthiness the coast guard should be composed. The si:oat ion, both as regarded ..ttleets and men, was very desirable. They had many comforts and convenience% eonste.ted likewise, he would admit, v;ith occa sionally very arduous duties, and not aiwr::ys free from the casualty of loss of life, but still them, were many inducem e n ts to make the situation bas. It was believed list offering that irulucemcnt to young that 51,e after a limited ser vi c would i n i duce thee\ the mare reauily to enter. It was well known ha the temptation:: held out in the merchant service were very grealarge o;. A portio of the American Commercial Marine was, composed of British seamen—possibly tne same thing had taken placv to a certain extent in other countries, but still it was notorious that in their merchant service, and in that of America, very great inducements were offered to gallant young fellows in the public service of the Crown. The plan had, therefore, been founded on very sound principles. How far it might have induced persons to enlist he was not prepared to say. The same principle had been urged over and over again as regarded the artily, with the view of inducing a superior class of men to enlist, rather than, sweeping the streets and highways. These Were the grounds which had induced Sir James Graham to hrhig forward the proposition. Ile believed there were about i Loco persons employed in that service who of eattrae were just as available upon any emergency as. under the former system. It had been said that the system was calculated to abstract sow of the best men from the service ‘ bqt all, the total number in any one peat I "st‘ gPt sAvkxik'd t? 0(), and that could by no means icQ considered a large number. One great benefit, at all events would be derived from this debate—that it 1, , ,ad Leen ad- mitted on all hands that mere economy would ruin the N'av —( Hear, hear.) This spirit of parsimony , indeed, had ope rated for many years past, and naturally enough, no person could be surprised at it, but the effects had been most per nicious—(llear, hear)—for it had forced upon Government the necessity of "poring down" to the very quick- —( Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend had said indeed that he had fallen upon happier times, and that larger aids were granted to bins than to preceding Governments. He congratulated his Noble Friend on the improvement, but the remarkable thing was, that his Noble Friend and those with whom he acted, were Opposed by those who always considered it to be their duty to support /inn whenever the interests of the country required it.—( Hear.) The Earl of MINTO wished to explain one or two points with respect to the Revenge ; he said, that ship was among those which had been returned to him as complete in all re spects. It often happened, however, that when a mast was wanted, one was taken from a demonstration ship, which was subsequently supplied from the Dock-yards ; and as the Re venge was a demonstration ship, this might have caused the _ temporary absence of a mast in that vessel. Then, as to sails, he could not find in the re turns an y si g ns of the deficiency which had been complained of. The Earl of HARDWICKE—There is not in Plymouth I),,ck-yard, a complete set of sails for a man-of-war. The Earl of M INTO said that unless the returns were false (which he could not suppose), that could not be the case. And he must candidly say, that he did not place so much reliance on the statements of Noble Lords as on these returns. The Farl of HA RDWICKE affirmed that he retained his conviction of the correctness of the statements he had made ; he did not know when the returns to which the Noble Lord had alluded were dated. The Earl of .MlNTO—Previously to your information. T e Earl of HARDWICKE—Then I believe them to be false.—( Hear, hear.) Lord MELBOURNE—My Lords, Ido not rise to enter into the discussion which has been pursued with so much minute ness. I will, however, say a very few words on the general principles by which the conduct of Government ought to be guided on questions of this nature—questions of the very high est and deepest importance. My Lords, I think there was per fect truth in what was stated by a Noble Lord, who, for so many years, filled the office of First Lord of the Admiralty—. that naval affairs were not questions of a mere pecuniary nature —(Hear)---but that they are questions on which the Govern mentought to act upon its own responsibility.—( Hear.) And my Lords, it is on our responsibility that we have proposed the naval estimates, and directed the First Lord of the Admiralty to make that distribution and disposition of the naval force which has been made. My Lords, it is my opinion that durin g peace it is wise to reduce the establishments of the country as low as is compatible with the safety of the country and the dutiest which are to be discharged. And I was happy to near i said by a Noble Lord, in the debate, that he sl d not conceive it wise to look through the ports of Europe, and keep up as strong a force as would be required to meet any sudden at tack from a foreign fleet. My Lords, what is that but war ?-- ( Hear, hear.) It is depriving the country of the advantages of peace, and incurring all the evils of war, especially that greatest of all the evils arising from war, the exhaustion of the national resources.—( Hear, hear.) But while reducing the naval establishments of a country in time of pew-c, it is wise in my opinion, to take care that the vessels be all ready to be -quipped ; that foreign nations gain no superiority over us in seamanship, in machinery, &c., and that we secure the bon_ fit of all new discoveries in the carrying on of warfare.—( Hear. ) My Lords, it - has been said that we employed our vessels on distant services, at Mexico, for instance, and leave our own shores unguarded.—( Hear, hear.) But, my Lords, if we are to have a reduced establishment in peace, we must employ our naval force, where our interests require its aid and protection, - some places must be left unprovided, but the ques tion is, whether it is not for the public interest that they should be left unguarded, whether it is not consistent with the public safety that they be left so unguarded. The Noble Lord who brought forward this question made a great many i very judicious, and unquestionably very able remarks. H e states the difficulty they would have in manning ships on a sudden outbreak, and the difficulty of meeting any emergency, That is not new ; I am old enough to have conversed with Statesmen of other times, I might almost say ; and I never heard of any other doctrine than that this country was always slow in commencing war; that our wars are marked with tardi ness and error, and often ill success. I remember the Duke of Richmond, Master-General of the Ordnance telling me that hi s great reason for being unwilling to try an experiment of peace w i t h the great republic of France was this, '° If you mak e p eace here, the form of your Constitution and the feelings of th e pe o pb:, force you to disarm mere rapidly than any other nation -in ' Europe and you have more difficulties in arming ag a i n . It is the old difficulty under which this country has always laboured • it is a difficulty illustrated by the whole history of Lilo last cen tury—( Hear, hear)—and I do distinctly admit that it is a diffi culty which requires to be considered, and which we should attempt by every means to meet and obviate ; and because we have got over former dangers, it will not do to trust to the good fortune of former times, which may have relieved us front circumstances of very great peril and very great danger. The Noble Lord has spoken very much of that which has engaged a great deal of the attention of this country during the last year, although, as the Noble Lord says, the public attention was excited many years before, and that is the Russian fleet in the Baltic. Surely this is not a question for the Admiralty— this is a very great question of policy.--( Hear, hear, from the Dbkc of Wellington.) I have no doubt whatever of the pacific intentions of that power—l have no expectation what ever of any hostility from that quarter. I have a perfect re liance on the frank and loyal character of that Sovereign ; while, at the same time, I do perfectly admit that it is not safe to rely entirely upon the moderation of that or any other power ; but that it is necessary and prudent to havea sufficient security. But, my Lords, at the same time the security which the Noble Lord proposes is not an effective security. Having 8,9, or 10 sail of the line at home here, is no security against that fleet, supposing it was actuated by hostile intentions and design. if we were to apprehend enmity and hostility from that quarter, it would be absolutely necessary that we should put a much larger force in commission—incur a m"eh l arger ex -l'n - e e —and make a much greater exertion than that w hi c h has ' stated by the Noble Lord. That Noble Lord says been very truly that we are not to wait for—that we are not to expect maul_ festes—are not to rely on declarations of war b e i ng given —and cites instances in which ho.tilities had commenced, and violence been committed, without any declaration of war. Certainly it is true that we are not to rely on manifestos and declarations of war, but we are not to expect that it would come upon us like a thunder clap. Hostilities, in the present day, du not come on suddenly. There are disputes, or somethmg arise ‘, which gives us the - opportunity of making preparations against any danger whatever that may come ups us (Hear, hear)---ana the question is, whether the Navy is not in such a state as would afford the germ or nucleus of any efficient force that might be required by any danger of that natu re; f or one, I beg leave to say that I do not in the slightest degree apprehend any danger of that sort, because I do believe, notwithstanding ombiaekeEarleh‘.vin bring some unfortunate differences have taken place on some matters .that may . be somewhat difficult to explain, o t r h w a_t hi t c h h :r i e is mor i e s PoWer in F.`urope more sensible of the great advantages to ' be s derived from friendship with Great Britain e ]Noble Lord'sflaeielit: . to i b n e a l u i believe, ethatalid inclined to friendship than the Power which possesses that and which has been made the subject of th the course recently taken by the Admiralty madversion. Every Noble Lord has admitted, I their approbation. My Lords, it is not m y into the particular parts of this discussion, 13;:nitri i s r e n n t e inn ent t i n tlo e d nte to r thousopposite ht (Earl tm y question. observations g d n ut id y e t; ,, s ti ta r t L e ntrhdeshg7seri nalthperinetc,inpsliedsertahtuitnnounofhtetht; Nuomble Earl for a ther d s i n Lordreply. OilieCtl beggedES T E to ß a assure e h t i onlyhn Noble feeling thanked j A n l g i nftnor)wtahradt thishe h g a n d e ns question, n p n e , r s n o n n d al h f e e el t the courtesy with which he had (as indeed he all,va an swered his observations. H e cou ld no t help thinkingks ( lid) ' ought to make some p r ep ara tio n , an d if we that we could not afford to keep up such a force as Russia, we ought at lea s t to ask Russia to reduce in proportion to us. Theie precedents fit or such a c ourse —h e believed . were such a demand made upon P rance i n 1803 that led t was He would not press £;,r a return of the dist r ib u ti on of the the w ar . il if the Noble Earl oppo s ed it ; b u t h e h e ld i n his hanttle ships publishetillUder the authority of the Noble Earl .at le a book least under the authority of the Admiralty—in which the whole of the sta tions were named. The Earl of MINT° said the book had no authority from the Admiralty, The returns were then ordered, and the House adjourned till Monday. lIOUSE OF COMMONS, FE R . 29. The SPEAKER took the Chair at five minutes before Four. Sir G. GREY, for Devonport, and Mr. MAXWELL, for Cavan, took the oaths and their seats. Mr. W. ATTWOOD presented a petition from the in habitants of Greenwich for leave to bring in a I3ill to erect a STUART presented a p e ti t i on for leave to c Cmi. et N em r. r y. bring in a Bill to enclose certain lands in the county of Waterford. Mr, DUGD A L E brought in a Bill h filcoz‘irali tlN?aeasypretclar,dpnoaisp.ef;ilne:syft enablingtoraist raise an ail t' e a ddi London ti o na l s a u n m d 0 Birminghamf money, n and second time. The HoN. MEMBER also br oug h t i n the Rugby an d Warwick Road Bill, which was read a first and second time. Mr. HODGSON H a INDE presented petition for leave to bring in a Bill t o ma k e a d oc k at llvthe Sir JOHN 0 W EN presented a petition from some place in Rutlandshire, the name of which we could not catch, stating that in the event of a repeal of the Corn-laws certain lands would be thrown out of cultivation, and pray_ ing the House not to consent to a repeal of those laws. Mr. FITZGIBBON presented a petition from Lime rick, against any alterations in the Corn-laws. Mr. HOGG presented 16 petitions from parishes in the West Riding of Yorkshire, to the same effect. SEAMEN'S WAGES. Sir E. CODRINGTON presented a petition from the seamen of North Shields, praying for a redress of the griev ances under which they laboured. The petitioner s stated that they were not entitled to any wages, on_ less the ship performed her voyage in safety. If a canal or drainage was undertaken, the men were entitled to be • paid for their wages. but in the case of seamen, if a te „,,, went out to the \Vest Indies, and before her arrival back the ship happened to be lost, lie was not paid etie farthing. The petitioners p ra y ed to be placed on the same footing, in this respect, with other classes of her Maj esty ' s subjects. Mr o . r . BRUGESsystem of presentedations' apetit educationion from Bath, on the pray ing f Scriptures. CORN -LAWS. Mr. W. DUNCOMBE pre n s f e t n h t e ed c a o p r e n t . i i t a i l o v n c from Rich_ VILLIEI?,,S presented a from Wisheach n fr o o o m th, B a t i n fo i roi‘ntile:re., repealork, against c a repeal orn. litw s . petition . . Lord DUNGANNON presented a petition in favour of • the Corn-laws. The NOBLE Loan also presented a petitioany , against the ford, against any grant to the College of M . praying for an investigation into that institution. Mr. PENDARVES presented a petition from the Guardians of the Poor-law Union at Redruth Beer Act ; and praying also for the establishment of th e Rural Police. Lord HENNIKER presented petitions from parishes in Suffolk against any repeal of the C orn-law s. CHURCH EXTENSION (SCOTLAND) .h Sir J. GRAHAM present ed a p etition fr om the Preshy. tery of Glasgow, praying fo r the extension of the Chor d of Scotland. Sir G. CLERK presented two petitions of a similar na ture from Orkney. Mr. MILD MAY presented a petition from Winchester against any alteration in the Corn-laws. Mr. M. PHILLIPS presented a p e ti t i on from the gosptet any yon alto: I I 01- : the C Northern and Eastern Railway Comp any, praying for • leave to bring in a Bill to extend their powers. ' LAWS. Mr. H E AT b Il y C l , 0 0 O T a E y 0 csons ,presented against aia beach O signed rn-laws, Mr. O'CONNELL presented petitio ns f rom and Oswestry, praying for the total and immediaf of the Corn-laws, in the prayer of which he heal ..,;,~ :ration in Newry Lte repeal irtily con. a