The Sun. — London, England, 1845-05-29 00:00:00

to take measures for the renewal of the treaty between this country and Brazil, and also in favour of the im• provement of the navigation of the river La Plata, in South America. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Mr. HUME said that he had fixed a motion for the 10th of June, but he now found that a motion had got upon the paper, he knew not how, by which he was pre cluded.—(A laugh.) He should, therefore, fix the 17th. The SPEAKER said that the Hort. Gentleman was mistaken ; the rule only precluded him from giving a notice within four days. After a few words from Mr. T. DUNCOMBE, Mr. HUME said he would give his notice to-morrow. MERCHANT SEAMEN'S BILL. The HON. MEMBER then presented a petition from Montrose against clauses in the Merchant Seamen's Bill. SANATORY MEASURES. • Lord DUNCAN begged to ask the Noble Lord oppo site (Lord Lincoln) whether he could state when the sana tory measures alluded to in her Majesty's speech would be introduced to the House ? Lord LINCOLN hoped that in a few days ho would be able to fix a day. LAW CHANGES. Mr. WATSON wished to ask the Right Hon. Gen tleman (Sir J. Graham) whether (as was rumoured) it was intended to take one-half of the Northern Circuit and add it to another ? He also wished to ask, whether it was true that the Commissioners had been precluded from going into the consideration of the appointment of two additional judges in Westminster Hall ? The third question was, whether the administration of justice re quired the alterations named, as he had heard no com plaints mad• ? Sir J. GRAHAM said he was at a loss to answer the first question, as he had heard nothing specific respect ing the subject. With respect to the second question, the Commissioners had not yet presented their report, but he might inform the House that no such question as the appointment of two judges had been referred to them. Should the Government think two additional judges necessary, they would appoint them without any reference to the Commissioners. With regard to the third question he was not prepared to give any definite information at present. Mr. ROEBUCK said the question which it was ne cessary for the Government to answer was, whether from the pressure of business two additional judges were nesse ssary ? Sir J. GRAHAM said he would take that opportunity of stating that he was not prepared to say what course Government intended to take respecting the appoint ment of additional judges. Mr. MUNTZ inquired when the treaty between Eng land and Naples would be laid upon the table of the House. Sir R. PEEL said he could not tell at present. Sir WALTER JAMES asked when the Government intended to move the second reading of the Bill for Academical Education in Ireland ? Sir J. GRAHAM—On Friday next. ROMAN CATHOLICS' RELIEF BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the Hon. Member for Kin sale would postpone his Bill for the relief of Roman Catholics, and that other Hon. Members who had mo tions would withdraw them, and allow the adjourned debate to be resumed. Mr. WATSON was extremely anxious that the Bill for the relief of the Roman Catholics should be read a second time, though he would consent that the debate upon it be adjourned. Sir J. GRAHAM was friendly to the general prin ciple of the Bill, though opposed to particular parts of it, especially to those provisions which referred to the Act of 1829. He thought it would be more advisable for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to postpone the second reading until the report of the Criminal Law Commission was laid upon the table of the House. This Report embraced not only the penalties upon Irish Roman Catholics, but upon those in Great Britain and Ireland it was in every sense a larger and more com prehensive measure than that wluch the Hon. and learned Member introduced. After some discussion the Bill was read a second time, and committed to this day fortnight. COUNTY CORONERS' BILL. This Bill was read a second time. CANAL COMPANIES' (IRELAND) BILL. The Report upon this Bill was brought up and laid en the table. _ _ CANAL COMPANIES CARRIERS' BILL. The report of this Bill was brought up and received. MALT DRAWBACK BILL. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN regretted that he felt obliged to persevere in calling upon the House to for ward this Bill through the stage of a second reading, and so reluctantly act in opposition to the wishes of ;the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord's resolutions were, how ever, vague and visionary, whereas the measure he ad vocated Vas real and practical. He hoped, therbfore, the Government would either allow the second reading of the Hill, or give a definite promise to bring forward a msesure which would meet the difficulties at present ex- isting.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. OARDWELL admitted the practical nature of the measure, but assured the House that the objections to is ware equally practical. The Government, think ing it respectful to the Hon. Member who had intro dacied the Bill, as well as due to the importance of the subject, to institute a careful inquiry into its propo: sitions, had taken the opinion of some of the most emi nent chemists on the possibility of meeting and con sulting them. Professor Faraday, in a letter to the Board. of Trade, had stated that no process was known for rendering malt unfit for distillation and yet suitable for feeding cattle. Professors Graham and Liebig had given similar opinions, and acting upon those, and the belief that the present Bill went virtually to the repeal of the malt tax, he must, though reluctantly, give it a de cided native. Mr. MILES suggested that, pending a more favour able opportunity, the Hon. Member for Northampton should withdraw his proposition. A mora fitting season would, he felt assured, arrive, when its success would be less doubtful, and its effects more beneficial. Lord HO WICK, while urging the withdrawal of the present motion, advised the introduction of Egyptian -beans and Indian corn, duty free, considering them as article, of great comparative superiority in feeding cattle. Mr. ESCOTT deprecated the present as one of a series of spurious measures for conciliating the farmers, which, however, he believed they were not blind enough to be duped by. Mr. CURTEIS, while recommending that the mea sure should not be pressed, as he considered it still in abeyance, would, nevertheless, if pressed, give it his cor dial support. Mr. FIUME trusted that the Hon. Member, after the fair explanation of the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, would not persist in his motion. He concurred with his Noble Friend the Member for Sunderland, that the Introduction of Egyptian beans, and Indian corn, duty free, would be far more beneficial than the mea sure new so strenuously advocated. Sir B. PEEL said he would agree with the Hon. Member for Sussex in recommending the postpone ment of this Bill. His Hon. Friend had said he would have the positive decision of the House on the second reading, either for the measure or against it. He would recommend his Hon. Friend to withdraw the Bill alto gether or to postpone it. Without meaning to depreciate from the authorities that had been adduced by different Hon. Gentlemen, as to the advisability of feeding cattle on malt, he must say that the opinions of Professors Liebig and Faraday, who very much doubted whether any advantage would result from so feeding cattle, had a very considerable influence with him. And even if there were advantages to be derived, there were:other reasons that would not render it advisable to pass the Bill. The present opinion of the Government was decidedly unfa vourable to it, as they considered it was calculated to load to defrauding the Excise. He thought it only pro per to state that opinion at once. Lord J. RUSSELL said, that during the time the late Government were in office, the present Duke of Bedford wished very much to promote a measure similar to the one proposed, and requested him to inquire from the Excise-office whether such a measure could be had with out danger. The question had been examined into by the present Government, and, after making every in quiry, they had come to the same resolution as the pre vious Ministry, that the measure would tend to defraud and not benefit the agriculturist. The Hon. Gentleman who moved this Bill considered it not only necessary to say that he thought the Bill was of great importance, but also to make an attack on the motion he had sub mitted to the house last night. He went quite out of the wog to make that attack. Ile had said there would be a slur cast on the Government if' those resolutions were carried, and another alteration in the corn-laws would bo necessary. The Noble Lord thought a slur would be cast on the Government if the proposed Bill passed, and said if the Hon. Gentleman thought the Bill was of sufficient importance to move it, be was quite justified in moving it. Mr. BUCK observed that he would protest against the measure. and recommended that under the circum stances the Bill should be withdrawn. Lord WORSLEY remarked that it had been stated In the House that Professor Faraday had said malt was not good food for cattle, but to his own knowledge, a friend of his had fed cattle with malt and they had thriven on it. He felt sure the Hon. Member for Nor thamptonshire deserved the thanks of all for good inten- Mons, and would recommend him to consider whether it would not be prudent to bring forward at some future period a measure for the total rep eal of the law. Mr. STAFFO RD O'BRIEN said he thought it would be advisable to give way at once. He proposed the measure thinking that it would not inconvenience Hon. Gentlemen. It wasnotfor theyhim to pronounce a son ttnee on the G overnment if re censurable. As the law au , the present s t oo d but kiln or dry malt. An farmer mi g ht d o an ythi ng Anything less than that he was com petent to do. He would wish to be informed definitely what was the boundary to which the farmers might go. There were many of th em who were ignorant th at- they might proceed so far in the manufacture of m al t without being exposed to a vi s it f rom the Excise. He had consulted two practical farmers whose opinions went to prove that malt was excellent when used as food for cattle. Professor Faraday had been quoted as an authority against malt being employed for such a purpose ; but he would say to the Government that if they would consult professors less and farmers more their conduct would give more satisfaction to the people. Tilß CONDITION OF THE PEOPLE.—THE ADJOURNED DEBATE. _ _ . Mr. P. HO WARD said when he had moved the ad journment of the debate the other night he had felt anxious to have addressed the House, but owing to the lateness of the hour he did not at that time deem it ad visable to intrude his opinions on the subject. It had been remarked, by a very acute observer of passing -events, that unity was as necessary to political as it was to artistical effect. In former times it was the custom, on the introduction of a party measure, to resolve the riouse-into a Committee on the state of the nation, and al though such a course might appear somewhat vague in .kts object, or stringent in its effects, it was tanta moL wt to a withdrawal of confidence in Ministers, If I the effect of the proposed measure occasioned a with drawal of confidence in the Administration, it would not, in his opinion, tend to the benefit of the country at large. He conceived he should not be justified in yielding his assent to those restrictive reso lutions which would have that effect. If the Noble Lord had said that the proposed measure was merely a resolution to give his own private opinion to the House —if he had announced his intention of not taking the opinion of the House, Hon. Members would have been happy to have been enlightened by the expression of his wisdom and experience; but for the Noble Lord uncom promisingly to pledge every Member to every one of those resolutions was what he (Mr. Howard) could not deferentially submit to. He was not unprepared to admit that the unsettled state of the country was mainly at tributable to the panic occasioned by the First Lord of the Treasury ; but he would have the House to under stand thoroughly the nature of the proposed resolutions, and to ponder over them maturely before they came to a definite opinion on the matter. The ultimate results of this measure might prove to be dangerous, disagreeable and bad. One of the principal objects oithose resolu tions was evidently to introduce a change in the corn laws, and that was a question which could not bo pru dently under-estimated. When the Noble Lord proposed the alteration of the present duty to four shillings or six shillings he did not proceed with the judgment, which, in his opinion, would result advantageously and beneficially to the condition of her Majesty's subjects. During the time the Noble Lord was a Minister of the Crown he had proposed a duty of eight shillings, which he considered would tend to satisfy the demands of all classes, but the attempt was unsuccessful. He (Mr. Howard) considered there were more efficient and more practicable means to accomplish the desired object. He considered that if there was a deficiency of corn, that is was from the colonies they should be first sup plied. It was desirable, before altering the present corn-laws in favour of foreign powers, to ascertain what they would give this country in return. If this country were to take an unlimited quantity of wheat, those powers might impose an export duty upon grain to be shipped to this country, and thus the condition of the consumer and the country would not be improved, while the whole agricultural interest would be made to suffer. The other evening he was much satisfied at hearing the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, for altering parochial settle ments, and that measure, if modified in some of its provisions with respect to settlement by birth, and set tlement by local residence, would remove much of the hardships which at present were inflicted on the work ing classes, and be a much more practical course towards meeting the condition of the country, than the course proposed by the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London. With respect to emigration, it was his opi nion that it should not be compulsory. The Board of Trade ought to be an authorised body to afford intend ing emigrants every necessary information, but not to force such a step upon the people. There was at present a prospect of successful emigration. The cloud which had overhung New Zealand was clearing away, and it would afford a wide and valuable field for the purposes of colonization. That country, so favourable to human ezertion, and so well adapted to the constitution of the people of this empire, he was sure might be made a place of the greatest resort for emi grants, and produce not only on those who went there, but to the country they had left behind, the best possible effects. The Noble Lord had set out with stating that this was a period of political tranquillity and commer cial prosperity, and then he went on to state a series of propositions respecting the condition of the people. In those propositions he sought to make extensive altera tions, in the face of the declaration by which they were preceded respecting the flourishing condition of the country. This appeared to him inconsistent. The Reform Bill had been !alluded to by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Essex, who spoke the other evening with respect to that measure. He (Mr. Howard) thought the results had been most gratifying, to both the country and that House, as it left the Government more indepen dent and unfettered in its course, and less dependant on party for support. To alter the provisions of that mea sure he judged highly impolitic, and hence he could not support the motion of the Hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford) for an extension of the suffrage. He believed, also, the country was indifferent to the subject. In these times of prosperity worthy and industrious working-men had the means of acquiring, by their exertion, the elective franchise, and this he looked upon as one of the great advantages of a representative system. The Noble Lord, with his accustomed eloquence, had adverted to the subject of education of the people. Now, he (Mr. Howard) was not indifferent to the extension of education, but it ought not to be overlooked that the Executive Goverareent, who had taken up that subject, had encountered considerable difficulty on that sub ject. Wero religion excluded, as in the case of the pro posed Colleges for Ireland, then objections were started that such an education tended to infidelity ; or if, on the other hand, religion were made a peculiar feature, then the religions that were not favoured were excited into opposition. He had been much pleased in listening to the able statement of the Noble Lord, but he thought it out of all precedent to introduce such a string of abstract resolutions as he had done. He (Mr. Howard) had sat in that House fifteen years, and he had never known any Hon. Member introduce, at any one time, any motion that would involve such extensive changes :as that of the Noble Lord. At the present time he thought the motion out of place, and hence he should oppose it. He believed that nothing beneficial to the country could flow out of it. Mr. ESCOTT agreed with what the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had stated respecting the motion being made up of a string of abstract resolutions ; but they, nevertheless, involved important practical results. The propositions of the Noble Lord contemplated great changes. They set out with a statement respecting the political tranquillity and commercial prosperity of the country, and then entered into a series of questions, the direct object of which appeared to be, the changing of that Government by which this state of tranquillity and prosperity had been brought about. —(Cries of " Hear, hear.") That was the only intelligible meaning that could be applied to the motion. He con sidered the question had been brought forward at a very improper time, and with no hope of leading to any be neficial end. He looked upon it as a dangerous ques tion, and more calculated to excite the feelings than to appeal to the judgment of the people of the country. This was no time for bringing up the question of the people's distress, or with profit and advantage to all parties concerned. With proper management, and with a due cultivation of the soil, there was ao necessity for emigration. With regard to education, he thought there was no necessity for going into the sub ject at present, seeing that the matter was in the hands of the Government. But the great question in volved by the Noble Lord's motion was that of exciting an agitation to make the working classes discontented with their condition. Such discussions did no good as they led to no beneficial or practical result. The Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetahire had much to answer for in this respect. He, had brought subjects before their notice which were only calculated to excite benevolent feelings without ending in any benefit to the parties who were the subject of those feelings. The Noble Lord (the Member for London) he was afraid was liable to something of the same charge. Any en couragement of emigration he (Mr. Escott) held would be attended with no great benefit, nor did he think it necessary that such a step should be carried out. He ' believed that this country even with its present prices could beneficially employ the whole population, If the mo tion of the Noble Lord were carried it would be followed up with the most important alterations in the corn-laws. The Hon. Member for Essex had stated that there was no plan proposed. Certainly there was no new plan. He remembered a Noble Lord, not then in his place (Lord Palmerston), two years ago, on a motion ou the import duties, reflected on what he termed the Govern ment's pedantic adherence to former professions. That Noble Lord had a right to act upon the oppo site principle himself; but he (Mr. Escott) could not say that the Noble Lord who had introduced the present motion had so acted, for he had certainly shown a most romantic adherence to his former opinions. He had made inquiries from Members both in and out of that House, with respect to their feelings on the fixed duty, and with the exception of the Noble Lord the Member for London there was not one in favour of it. That being the case, he should like to know how or with whom ha meant to form his Government with respect to the fixed duty. The Noble Lord the Mem ber for Sunderland might certainly change his mind upon the subject ; but, till lie heard that that was the case, he had no right to assume it as fact; and usder these cir cumstances he was at a loss to know hew the Noble Lord in tended to carry into effect the principle for which he had so perseveringly contended. There was another reason which made the conduct of the Noble Lord still more astonishing. It was not more than six weeks ago since he had heard the Noble Lord !Jay that pro tection was the bane of agriculture.—(Hear, hear.) On a great question such as the corn-laws—a ques tion on which so much depended—it was absolutely necessary that the House should deliberate carefully as to any course it should adopt. It seemed to him that there were two parties in that House, and the country too, on this question. He denied, however, that there was any great feeling agitating the country in reference to it. The great free traders and protectionists who had been so prominent two or three years age, bad softened down, and there was now no longer anything like the interest which some time ago had been taken in it. In the country there was no agitation. He must say, that it was creditable to the Honourable Members on that side of the House to give up the high rates of duty, which they had recently done. It proved there was no selfishness connected with them; and he did not hesitate to say, that they had acted a noble and a generous part. The other part of the House who took a different view of the subject were of two classes—part of them, who called themselves the farmer's friends, and for whom he entertained the greatest respect, were, he thought, influenced in their opposition by the best motives. He considered that they were desi rous to promote the interest of the people, and he honoured them for their intentions, however ranch he differed from them as to the mode of carrying them out. But he did not understand the other class of the farmer's friends. He did not understand those who went down to the country and made an outcry, and raised their shouts against measures which they themselves had, by t agt h hne e adt i t r certh v ehd o eeei t t e r s, helped to carry i n t o eifoct.—( Hear, hear, I s fa . o ) t t e ch T oe h irr a n t gßo o w ill a d s w a intentions! sect b o n f farmers changed, From a w tnh h de o umnp ora were at I t u o o t circumstances of that change, it was impo ss ibl e f or t h e Government to fall back upon the old principle, and the result was that the whole system of protection was com pletely undermined.—(Hear, hear.) An Hosionaleez MEMBER here rose, and moved thee the House be counted, when strangers were ordered to withdraw. There being forty members present the debate was continued. Mr. ESATT.—From the moment it was avowed that the object of protection was to raise the price of corn, and put mosey into the pockets of the landowners from that moment the principle of protection had re ceived a blow from which it had never recovered. There was one way of defending it, and if protection was not to be defended on the ground of giving a more regular supply of corn, but on the contrary, of pro ducing an artificial scarcity to put money into the pockets of the landholders, then might he say with truth that the cause of protection was gone. That was a more staggering blow than it had ever yet received. He felt it his duty to state, and he believed the majority of the country came to the same conclusion, that from the time the Honourable Member for Kent, the Mem ber for Sutherland, and the Duke of Richmond (in another place), had made the statements to which he alluded, the cause of protection had suffered, for it was impossible that the people could be convinced by such arguments. It might, perhaps, be prejudicial to him—and it might be disagreeable to many of his friends, to whom he owed great political and public sup ' port, to have spoken as he had done that evening; but no consideration of that kind, no favours of such a nature, highly as he valued thorn, should induce him to suppress his views of what lie considered right on this great ques tion, or to sacrifice his integrity. There were one or two ' other points, and one to which he would particularly al ' lude before he sat down. Much had been said of the greatness of the public distress that prevailed in the country. He concurred in a great deal of what had been stated in reference to that, and he would ba glad to ask some of those Gentlemen who had left the llouse, and who had very eloquently alluded to it, what was the cause of the farmer's distress. He had lately been in the country, and he could assure the House that the want of keep was the great cause of this distress. And how could any other state of things be expected after the winter and spring which had just passed over. When his Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. Graham) whom he was glad to sae in his place, had stated a few evenings ago the lowest price of meat, he confessed he did feel sur prise. The Right Hon. Gentleman, however, was under a mistake. It was higher, he contended, than it had been for many years, and the reason was the scarcity of keep in the country. He would state, however, a fact, which had just come under his notice.—(Hear.) In the contract which had been lately entered into with the Government for the supply of Woolwich, meat was 70. per lb., and in the contract last year it was only 6d. per lb. Now, he would state that he never knew anything equal to the distress which prevailed in the country.—(Hear, hear.) It was time for them to con sider whether any measures could be adopted to mitigate this distress. He thought that the duties on the impor tation of many articles connected with agriculture ought to be greatly modified. The farmers wanted more seeds. It was not long ago that he had a conversation with a gentleman who was an ultra-protectionist, but who had the good sense not to connect himself with any of the protection societies, and who had paid 401 last year for seed. Now that gentleman declared to him, that if he could have purchased this quantity for 201, he would have sowed double the quantity of land. He had no hesitation, therefore, in saying that these restrictions were one great cause of the farmers' distress. They were fully convinced that the time was come when such re strictions ought to cease.—(Hear, hear.) Before ho sat down he hoped he would be allowed to say that the course which the Government pursued was, in his opi nion, the best course which they could have pursued, under the circumstances, and he would not do his duty to his constituents if he voted for the Noble Lord's reso lutions. He thought, however, that as to any finality on this measure or on that, the idea was absurd.—(Hear.) Yet it was impossible that any Parliament or any Government of this country could stand by any set of measures when they were opposed to the welfare of the people. These views were, to a considerable extent, entertained by all the most sensible men in the country. —(Hear, hear.) When the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London said that the condition of the working man must be improved, and that he was placed in a dis advantageous position at the present moment, he was guilty of exaggeration, as the mass of the population were now better employed and at higher wages than for the last fourteen or fifteen years. As to their knowledge, he believed that the increasing light which was extending throughout the land, and which was teaching senators wisdom, would, by and bye, reach the home of the poor 1 man—that it would teach them sobriety, the best means of conducting their domestic concerns, and the first and best lesson, that of making them contented with their lot. Sir J. GRAHAM said he had to offer a few words in explanation of a return of the prices of butcher's meat, which had been referred to on a former evening. The return was prepared by the Board of Trade, at his re quest, and did not refer to the price of dried meat in the hands of retail butchers. It was made up for six years —from April, 11139, to April in the present year. The return showed a decrease of the price of meat sold to the labouring classes in this year over 1140. Captain PECHELL said he had, never heard a more valuable or more excellent speech, than that delivered by the Hon. Member for Winchester. Whatever might be their difference of opinion with respeet to the resolutions of the Noble Lord, they must all agree that be had afforded them much useful information. With respect to the state of education in Sussex, he had been informed that 400 out of 870 persons, confined in Lewes gaol, were ignorant of the existence of the Saviour. With respect to the want of education in other counties, he could cor roborate the statements of the Noble Lord. He stated that not more than a third of the prisoners confined in Stafford gaol could read. In Devonshire, Denbigh shire, Essex, and other counties, great ignorance pre vailed. Out of 131 confined in Hereford gaol, only one could read tolerably well. The Gallant Member referred to the criminal returns of other gaols, to show the great want of education among the lower classes. But when the Noble Lord wished to show that ignorance existed among the lower classes in Suffolk and in other counties, he might have said that it also prevailed among the higher classes in that and in other counties in England. Much gross ignorance existed among a class of far higher station than the labouring class—he meant the " farmers' friends."—(Hear, hear.) At a dinner at Brighton, on the 24th of January last, a Noble Lord, in reply to the toast of " The Navy," said he was happy to say " that the only individual connected with his pro fession, who was opposed to the cause that was protection—was the Member for the borough in ' which they were assembled. He was sure they must succeed against the Anti-Corn-law League, and he had hoisted the flag of protection, and was ready to do battle with that body." He (Capt. Pechell) believed that the people of this country were not so hostile to the Anti-Corn-law League as they had been. These words, or others of a similar nature, had been uttered in other places, but it was rather a remarkable circumstance that they had not heard them in that House. They had had divisions, and all kinds of schemes, but when they came to the point-they were never able to bring them to a fair stand-up fight, and they never proposed any measures for the benefit of those whose friends they professed to be. They did not support the assertions they made at their: agricultural associations.—(Opposition cheers.) He agreed with the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson), that assertions like those to which he had referred were frittering away. Ho (Captain Pechell) was in favour of the resolutions of the Noble Lord, and of the amendment of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Rochdale (Mr. Sharman Crawford.) With respect to the question of the extension of the suffrage, the Hon. Member for Manchester must know that petitions were now lying on the table of the House, which had not been entertained, but which must be entertained, either by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, or by the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London. The speech of the Hon. Member for Carlisle, who was very delicate on this subject, and who had shown more sensitiveness on that debate than on others, had disappointed him. He regretted that on the division on the questions before the House, they should not have the support of the Hon. Member for Winchester. Sir JOHN WALSH believed that the speech of the Hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. liscott) deserved all the compliments which had been paid to it, and that it would, no doubt, meet with approbation from the Mein hors of the Anti-Corn-law League. The Noble Lord said, that however various the topics involved in his reso lutions were—however different they might be, and distinct from each other, yet there was one common bond of union between them, and that they had a direct ten dency to promote the welfare of all classes of society. In that he was disposed to agree with the Noble Lord, but at the same time ho thought that it would have been better if his resolutions—wide and comprehensive as they were—had contained only subjects which had a reference to the welfare of the labouring classes. If his intention, in bringing them forward, had been for the purpose of stating his own views on this question, he certainly should have felt, and every Member on that side of the House would have felt, however much they might differ from him in their political opinions, most willing to attend to everything that fell from his au thority with respect to it. He must say, however, that it appeared to him, that the introduction of so many different topics into one discussion, could not fail to distract the attention of the House, and render the discussion desultory and inconclusive. The attention of Hon. Members was apt to turn to some particular topic which related to party, to the exclusion of others which the Noble Lord had united with them, He agreed with one of the resolutions propounded by the Noble Lord, and in the opinions with which he introduced it to the House. He alluded to the question of colonization. He was glad to hear the opinions which the Noble Lord ex pressed on that subject, more particularly when he con sidered the great influence which he possessed in that House • but at the same time ho regretted that the Noble Lord had not earlier given his attention to It. When he held the office of Secretary to the Colonies, he might have given a great im petus to an enlarged system of colonization. He (Sir J. Walsh) thought that it was in the power of her Majesty's Government to devise a practical measure which might have a tendency to effect the object of the resolution—of relieving the redundant labour in the agricultural districts by a well-conducted scheme of emigration. It was particularly with reference to this subject that be wished to call the attention of her Ma jesty's Government. One of the principal objects which prevented the carrying out of such a scheme in a full and effective manner was, the great difficulty of providing for emigrants on their first lending in a colony, of find iog them employment, and of placing them in a position in which their labour might be rendered available, and under circumstances in which the protection of the Go vernment might be afforded to them. Much in this respect he thought might he done to render emigration to the colonies advantageous to the people of this country. The only question, in fact, was that of the eorn.laws. But, with respect to this, what was the state of the case? Why, that the improvements which had been made in England in the practice of agriculture were greater than that which had been made in any other country in the world. The whole of these improvements had been madeduring the last half century. During that period me t re l 4 France,elsfa s an ftl h e 1 attempts had been made to overcome the diffieulties of climate and soil than in any other believednst r a t i i t o n w of e thisld be a position, ew ed he h e a were the ere to coun t ry.ak e soil and climate of France were far more favourable for the procluctiol} that} Bnglitudt 4114 yet TNE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, MAY 29, 1845. the comparative state of cultivation in France was as per fect ignorance with that of England. He believed that the introduction of the improved system in England was not anterior to the year 1791, and all the great altera tions had taken place since them. This was the case with the Norfolk system, and with the system pursued in Lincolnshire and the Lothians. He did not like any of those resolutions, which made the interest of the labouring classes appear different from their own. It was not the case; and in the declaration of such a prin ciple he thought they were arming Mr. O'Connell with tenfold power, and they were only increasing their diffi culties, while, on the contrary, if they were to pursue the right course, he was assured that the Irish peasant would soon care little for Maynooth ; but would be led to con skier and value the means by which the welfare of his , family and himself was to be promoted. Lord HO WICK said that there was one part of the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet who had just sat down, which he wished had been addressed to the House in a former debate—he meant that part of the speech in which the Right Hon. Baronet stated that the system of protection to agriculture had been instrumental rather in the improvement than the retarding of agriculture. lie did think, that if the Right Hon. Baronet had lis tened to the arguments advanced in introducing the motion of the Hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Cobden) for an inquiry into the state of the farmer and the far mer's labourer,with a view to suggest some means for their improvement, that he would not that night have come down to the House with the observations which he had now > addressed to it. If he had listened to that speech, which he was bowel to say was replete with informa tion and sound reasoning, he would have come to the conclusion that protection had checked and retarded the spirit of agricultural improvements. If such were not the case, how was it that in this department of na tional industry there had been no improvement during the long peace with which we had been so happily blessed? He thought that that speech had fully demon strated to the House that it had been checked and re tarded, and the reasons adduced had in his mind been decisive of the question. Yet the Hon. Baronet had neither met the arguments nor assisted them in obtain ing the Committee. But what did the Honourable Baronet say on the subject as to the extent of the improvement. All he could say was that there had been improvement. They should decide that there had been improvement ; but would any one who had heard the arguments advanced in that debate venture to say that that improvement was the consequence of protective laws. But it was not his object to press the arguments of the Honourable Baronet into discussion, but his object was rather to make some general remarks to the House on the general tendency of the general object of his Noble Friend's motion. The way in which the motion had been met on the part of the Government appeared to him most extraordinary. The only speech indeed from that side of the House had been made by the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department. When a Member of the Govern ment rose he fully expected that he would pro pose one of two courses. Either that he would have met the arguments or would have attempted to deny the situation of the labouring classes. This was one line ; the other was an admission of the condition of the labouring classes, and all the evils which were consequent upon it; but, however much it might be desired, yet Parliament was unable to prevent them. But neither of these two courses had been taken, and he therefore thought the attempt to bring them before the House by these resolutions was not a vain one, and this he thought was a sufficient answer to several of the arguments of the Hon. Baronet who had just sat down. But how did the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department meet the arguments of his Noble Friend ? He did not attempt to meet the argument at all, but he came down to the House and made a speech, in which he told the House that he should meet his Noble Friend by moving the previous question. There was no doubt but that the situation of the labour ing classes was in the extreme unsatisfactory, and yet he refused to bring it under the consideration of the House. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated that it was the duty of the House to consider the interests of all classes of the community, but he (Lord Howick) thought it was especially their duty to take care of the interests of the labouring community. This, he believed, it was in their power to do; and it was the duty of the Legislature to devise such measures as would improve the condition of those classes who were least able to help themselves; and he thought that the object of the Govern ment would have been to meet the whole of the difficulty laid before them, and not to obviate all inquiry by moving the previous question.—(Hear.) This was the way in which the Right Hon. Baronet met the question—(Hear, hear.) He said he would neither affirm nor deny that measures were required for the im provement of the labouring classes which it was in the power of Parliament to adopt. He (Lord Howick) would say that was a mode of meeting the question which, if the House coincided in, would sufficiently evidence that it shrunk from its duty—(Hear, hear). He could un derstand that the Right Hon. Baronet might either deny that such misery really existed, or that, granting that it did, he might propose an amendment, calling on the House to say that it was impossible that by any change in the law they could relieve the distress which was so universally prevalent. He (Lord Howick) could understand a Minister of the House taking either of these courses, but he was quite at a loss to understand how a Minister could propose, or the House coincide, in saying that this subject was unfitted for the conside ration of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) If he could rightly understand the object of the Noble Lord who had in troduced these resolutions, it was to call en the House, first of all, to recognise the fact that the condition of the labouring classes of this country was far from satisfac tory—one in which something might be done for their improvement and welfare ; and, next, to point out what wore the principles on which those measures he would recommend for their relief, should be based. Having laid down these principles, he (Lord Howick) further understood the Noble Lord's views to be, that this question was so large and so important that it ought to bet left with the advisers of the Crown to embody and propose to the House measures in accordance with his principles. That appeared to him the proper and Parliamentary mode, and he confessed that he did not understand the ground on which the Hon. Baronet who spoke last (Sir John Walsh) found fault with the resolutions, as calculated to establish a difference between the labouring and other classes. He (Lord Howick) did not so read them. He did not understand the Noble Lord to argue that mea sures should be passed benefiting the labouring classes at the expense of others. What he understood from the speech of his Noble Friend was, that the adoption of mea sures, founded on those principtes,would not only be bene ficial to the whole nation, but to every class in the commu nity. He understood, indeed, that his propositions es pecially referred to the labouring classes, as their condi tion at that moment was one peculiarly requiring the in terference of the House. Now, if he were right in his construction of these resolutions, he thought it followed that they on that (the Opposition) side of the House were entitled to expect:tlie support of every Hon. Mem ber who agreed in thinking that if the condition of the labouring classes were such as required the adoption of some means or other of improvement, whether they were agreed or not as to what that impr ovemen t might be, because if they differed as to the means to be adopted for this object, they might do so in a subsequent stage, by moving an amendment when the actual measures were brought under the consideration of the House. But this he did think, that there was some thing amiss in the present social system that required amending ; and he was of opinion, that those who entertained those views, however widely they might differ from them on other subjects, were bound to concur in the adoption of the Noble Lord's first resolution.— (Hear, hear.) He could not help feeling somewhat disappointed, in seeing that the attendance in the House was not better than it was. (There were about forty Members present)—and, above all, he was greatly disap pointed in not seeing in his place the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire, and other gentlemen who had concurred with him in bringing at various times, under the consideration of the House, the condition of some portion of the population of the country. That Noble Lord had devoted much of his time and attention—and in a manner highly praiseworthy—to the bringing before the House the condition of the women in mines, of the chil dren in factories, and of other branches of the labouring population ; and therefore he (Lord Howick) confessed that he was very greatly disappointed that that Noble Lord was not present to support them in proposing some means for relieving the distresses—not of a particular motion, but of the people generally, especially as all those grievances, and all those sufferings did not arise from any p articular local cause, but were symptomatic of a general evil, which lay at the bottom of the whole case —namely, the inability of the working classes of this country to obtain a fair remuneration for their labour— an inability to command a market sufficiently certain. All these distresses, all these grievances, arose from this one soiree; and the attempts made in various ways to get over the difficulties which the population were labouring under, but added to the existing evil.—( Hear, hear.) When, therefore, this proposition of the Noble Lord was one not tending to dam up the channels of industry, but to open still more the triunes from which prosperity flowed, he did feel disappointed at the absence of the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire, be cause, had the Noble Lord been in the House, he (Lord Howick) had so mush confidence in the sincerity of his inten tions, in the honesty of his motives, and in his fervent desire for the welfare of the poorer classes of his fellow-countrymen, that he was sure that if they could have shown to him that by the adoption of the principle on which these resolutions ware founded the welfare of the poorer classes could be promotei, he was sure that that Noble Lord would have supported them whatever might have been his previous opinion, or however opposed these resolutions might be to his former policy or to the opinions of the party with which he was politically con nected.—( Hear, hear. ) He (Lord Howick) had already said that the objects of this motion were just to call on the House to recognise the existence of a state of things in which the interference of the House was necessary in behalf of the working classes, and he had also expressed his opinion that be thought they were entitled to expect the support of all those who did not consider the present condition of the working classes as satisfactory, unless, indeed, they also thought that no legislative enactment could assist to remove them. Now he would ask if, in the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department, he had said one word which was calculated to lead to the con clusion either that the present condition of the working classes was in any way satisfactory, or that it would not be in the power of Parliament to remedy it? That the condition of the working classes was far from satisfactory he was willing to take on the evidence of the Right Hon. Baronet himself. He said that the Noble Lord rightly stated the wages of the labourer in the agricultural districts of England. He believed per fectly well that if throughout the whole nation they took the average rate of wages, the statement of his Nohle Friend might perhaps be too low, but in very many of the counties of England they had the strongest proofs that the statements of the Noble Lord were correct. If they looked at Wilts, Dorsetshire, and Sussex ; parts of North Devon, and other counties in the south and west of England, the rate of wages would be found to be miserably low, He would ask the Right Honourable Baronet whether the wages in these counties could be considered satisfactory— whether they were not such as necessarily to entail great suffering and great privations on those by w h o m they were received ? (Hear, WO The Right liouourabig Darolgte had referred to the improvements in the manufacturing dis tricts. He (Lord Howick) was happy to believe that such I improvements had an existence, but he would ask the Right Honourable Baronet, if he himself had not, two years ago, al luded to the sufferings which prevailed in the manufacturing districts? He (Lord Howick) had, in 18-13, brought the sub • jest before the House, and at that time it was not dis puted that throughout the whole manufacturing districts of England and Scotland misery and distress prevailed to a most alarmiug extent. It had lasted for three or four years, and it had then risen to its height. The description of things as then existing was absolutely heart-rending. The Right Hon. Baronet in describing the improvement which had now taken place, himself went back to that former state of things, and pointed out how fearful was that distress, Bat, he would ask, what was the inference to be drawn from that very fact ? Why, that the manufacturing labourers, if they took his average earnings, was not greatly superior in condi tion to the agricultural labourer. No doubt at this moment they were blessed with prosperity. But how was that? Be. cause they had had good harvests, because they had low prices for food, and because those low prices enabled the population to consume bread, sugar, and tea, and that had itself assisted in producing a flourishing state of trade. For this reason, therefore, their manufacturing districts were at that moment in a comparative state of ease. But was that to continue perms. nent ? Was that state of things to be depended on ? Did they feel convinced that two bad harvests would not occur in 'accession to change their present commercial prosperity ? Was it not better, then, to take advantage of this short interval of prosperity, so as to deliberate calmly on those measures which they might think best calculated te ensure a permanent im provement in the condition of the working classes? They might n see search this matter clearly and fully, and without any undue influence being exercised to bias their delibera tions: but if this state of things should change—if, by a sue eeeston of bad harvests the pressure of misery and distress should again be felt in the manufacturing districts, paralysing all their energies, he would ask them whether they could, in such a case, so advantageously and satisfactorily, he would say, and safely, discuss the great question as to the causes on which the prosperity of the working classes depended? But it was obvious to every man, and simply because they could not depend upon the continuance of this prosperity, that it did no good, if it did not do injury to the agriculturist. It was perfectly clear, that the great demand for labour which now existed in the manufacturing districts, could not he looked on as a permanency, and the labourers of the agricultural dis tricts could not conceal from themselves that a recurrence might ere long take place, of that distress and suffering which had formerly prevailed, and which had succeeded to a previous period of prosperity.—( Hear, hear.) With an anticipated recurrence of these things before their eyes, the present great demand for labour in the manufacturing districts had a tendency to remove some of the difficulties which pressed upon the agricultural portion of the community. Fiir were it not that the present state of things could not be de pended upon they would have large bodies of the labourers of Dorsetshire and Buckinghamshire flocking to Manchester and Liverpool. But although the present condition of the manu facturing labourer was greatly superior to that of the agricul tural labourer, he believed, upon an average of years—take for instance two years together—they would find that there was hardly any, or at all events no material distinction between the two; and the question was one which ought to be considered, and, if it were possible to improve it, it was their duty to adopt measures aiming at that improve ment, arid the only question was whether that improvement was in their power, because the course for them to consider was whether they ought to adopt these resolutions or not. Now the taking of such a step depended simply upon the considera tion of whether it was practicable for Parliament to do any thing for !improving the condition of the working classes generally.—(Hear.) Now, in coming to this question, he could not help observing that very many unfounded objec tions had been made to the resolutions. One of those objec tions was, that they opened so wide a field and extended so far. Now he thought, when his Noble Friend was bringing before their attention the necessity for doing something for the benefit of the labouring classes, it was his business to point out not only the details. but in general terms the principles of the different measures which he thought ought to be adopted for their benefit. And he (Lord Howick) thought it more impor tant that the Noble Lord should do this, because he entirely agreed in the opinion expressed on a former evening by his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Taunton, that these reso lutions were no less important from what they include, than what they exclude.--( Hear.) They all know that there was at this moment a very general feeling amongst large masses of the community, that the time had arrived when some thing ought to be done for the welfare and improvement of the working classes.—(Hear, hear.) There was amongst the community at large a most praiseworthy and a most honest— but he was afraid, in many cases, not a very well regulated— desire for doing something for the benefit of the working classes. The measures which had been brought forward or suggested by some of those who entertained this feeling, would, in his opinion, only add to the distress which they meant to correct.—( Hear, hear.) It was, therefore, of great import ance that his Noble Friend, in bringing these resolutions be fora the House, had, in point of fact, shown them what were the limits and powers of Parliament in taking steps for the im provement of the working classes. It was important that there resolutions should point out to them how far they could go, and what they could not do for the benefit of the working classes. But of the different classes of evils which his Noble Friend had pointed out in the resolutions, there were two of them which were most closely and most intimately connected together. Ile people of this country, at this moment, were suffering both from evils arising from ignorance, which all the efforts which Parliament had yet taken had only partially suc ceeded in dispelling, and also from the physical evils arising out of poverty; and in his opinion these two evils were very closely connected together, Poverty often resulted from ignorance, and poverty and ignorance together naturally cor rupted the minds of some of the rising generation. They all knew that those who had the advantages of a good education, and whose minds were endowed with sound principles and useful knowledge, had seldom any difficulty in obtaining em ployment at a tolerably fair remuneration.—(llear, hear.) ['heir intelligence rendered their services so much more valuable, and hence they commanded in the market a fair, and in some instances, a liberal remuneration ; and therefore it was he said, that ignorance was one cause of poverty,but on the ether hand, it was no less certain that poverty was one cause of ig norance. His Noble Friend had correctly psinted out that it was quite impossible for a population suffering under the 1 res sure of great physical distresses to endeavour to obtain the blessings of education. How was it possible for a labouring man residing in acottage in Dorsetshire, and earning 7s. per week, to pay a hi g g rent for his cottage, a high price for his fuel, and feed and clothe his wife and children, to give his chil dren any education at all ?—( Hear, hear.) No ;it was totally impossible ; and the consequence was the rising generation of Dorset and other districts were brought up in such a way as to enable them to supply their animal or immediate wants. It was clear, therefore, to him, that these two evils were closely connected, and his Noble Friend had done well in pointing out, in one of the resolutions which he had laid on the table, that one important means for improving the condition of the labouring population was to be found in education.— ( Hear, hear.) They must combine with those measures which might be hit upon for raising the physical condition of the people, other measures for dispelling that ignorance which at present prevailed amongst large portions of the working classes.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend, in his resolutions, had pointed out generally what were the means which he would propose to be adopted in both cases, but he (Lord Howick) thought they were all agreed as to the necessity fur and importance of education, and he should, therefore, confine his remarks to the SCCORII measure. His Noble Friend had pointed out the means to be adopted—which he thought ought to be adopted—for improving the physical condition of the people and mitigating the sufferings they occasionally had to encounter. Now, it was most true that neither Government nor Parliament could effectually regulate the wages of the la bourer by legislative enactments. Experience taught them that it was out of the power of Parliament to adopt measures for that purpose. Indeed, any attempt of that kind hitherto only tended to aggravate, instead of remove the evil, but hie Noble Friend did not propose any such mischievous mea sure as this. What he proposed was simply to release the labourer from the restrictions which were at present placed upon his industry. Their argument was, that the restrictions imposed upon the freedom of industry were the direct cause of the present sufferings of the working classes, and all that was required of Government was to remove these restrictions, and leave the labouring man free to make the most of his own labour in his own way. If they did that, the known perse verance and honest industry of the English labourer would always secure to him a comfortable subsistence.—( Hear. ) Let hire remind the House of the great distinction between a society in a state of civilisation and a sooiety in a state of bar barism. And what was it produced this great distinction ? It was, he believed, mainly the comparative efficiency of labour in civilised nations which produced that amount of wealth and capital which enabled them to go on employing more labourers. —( Hear, hear. ) He was ashamed to go bask to mere ele mentary propositions. But because they were overlooked in that House, or their vast importance underrated (Cheers) —he was induced to trouble the House by referring to them.—( Hear.) It was the free interchange of labour ren dered practicable by the absence of laws of restriction which enabled the division of labour to be fully carried out.—( Hear. ) It was the want of that free interchange of the products of labour which caused the low state of the industrious classes in those countries where commerce was restricted.—( Cheers.) By one man's applying himself to a particular occupation, more was produced for himself and more for the community of which he was a member, than if he could not rely upon a certain supply of food for the exchange of his own productions.--( Hear, hear.) It was by the industry of one country producing what another wants, that commerce made men rich and happy. It was by that beautiful machinery of Providence, that various nations were mutually blessed through the industry of each other.—( Cheers. ) It followed then, that when you interfered with the exchange of produc tions—when you prevented corn being sent to countries which could produce clothes more easily, you interfered with one of the greatest blessings of Providence.—(Cheers.) That doc trine was as old as Adam Smith.—( Cheers and laughter.) But it was as clear as arithmetic.--( Cheers.) It was there. fore a necessary and inevitable consequence that the whole sys tem of protection was calculated to lower and degrade not only the working classes, but all classes of the community in'the country which adopted that system. —( Hear, hear. ) But amongst all other systems of protection, he saw none so mis chievous as that which, in a d ense l y peop l e d country, refused to admit the introduction of foreign food, is exchange for the products of domestic labour—(Cheers). That system was so monstrous and indefensible, and still so stoutly main tained that it could not be too often discussed in that House— ( Cheers). But the discussion would be best brought before the House on the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton respecting the Corn Laws—( Hear, hear ). At present he wished to confine himself to the effect of those re strictive laws upon the c on diti on o f t h e wor ki ng c l asses of this country ; which would be best understood by comparing it with that of the working classes in these countries in which food was more easily obtained—as in the United States and in our own province of Canada—(Hear, hear.) This had been often pointed out, and no answer had been made. lie must now content himself by allowing that no answer was possible —( Hear, hear). He asked the Right lion. Baronet at the head of the Government for a plain and direct answer—( Cries of " Hear, hear"). How was it that the English peasant, when he emigrated to Canada, the United Sates, or South Australia, found that he could obtain the necessaries, and even the luxuries of life, to an extent of which he knew nothing at home ?—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department had told the House that there had been a large emigration of labourers to Canada, and that the emigrants were all well off. Now, he wanted to know how it happened that all those men who had been so badly off at home, were so well off in another country ?—( Hear, hear.) It was not because they were mere industrious than at home, for no one had ever found fault with their industry at home.—( Hear, hear.) At home they had had all the vast resources of this great country, in capital and machinery, to render their labour productive.—( Hear, hear. ) The cause could not be that they were less taxed in Canada or in the United States, for it was demonstrable that, in propor tion to its wealth, this country was the most lightly taxed in the world. (Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh.") It was undeniable that the amount of land which lay open to them to cultivate, was the great cause of their improved condition ; and to render their condition at home equally comfortable and in dependent, it was only necessary to throw open to them, for the exchange of the products of their labour, those wide lands of the earth, where food was abundant, and the peculiar pro ducts of their own industry most needed. These countries could all produce corn much cheaper and in much greater abundance than they required. Australia could very well send to th e Lord had omitted to state nix opinion as _ au to . operation of a fixed duty in a time of scarcity• u the Noble Lord had said nothing prolific season to levy such a duty would be Impelli.hijecm; yet the executive authority remittina the duty on corn under te lu sh circumstances. The Noble Cord had omitted to a r i, h s e a r o ,pinion on this question the previous evening• resolution referred to the political tranquillity and c ono t. ll , he prosperity of the country. It could not be denied t h on t r• f a partyof making a pro' j s ..„ Noble Lard (Lord John Russell,) had divested his Ina ° t he resolutions implied distrust and avant of confident:am/84"in; Majesty's Ministers.—( near.) On this subject it r of the character. yet still co one could fail seeing 01 her the House to determine if improving the taaat i r e , to pay oountry—imposing taxes on thetas who could affey of to them—releasina indestry, and relieving the diScaltlie,hu Gee country—if those " were to be taken as reasons why t hen thee yernment was not entitled to the confidence of the count r y gt , was the Noble Lord correct in the position he had ta n u o , the referred to the improved comforts and social conditiohe re!, people—to the removal of embargoes on trailc—t° t ra ercial sion and improvement of the laws upon which ° That th e / transactions depend ; to all these he referred as evidence _, ha d (the Government) had not been remiss in their dutyien"atty, done that which entitled them to the confidence of the uest i s a Ile could not think th a t th e h a bit ua l discussion of this q u f t he did any gooel.—( Hear, hear.) lie thought the subjeftm a tioa corn-laws could be mu c h more e ffi c iently discus sed by °mow specifically introduced, as by the Hon. Member ara ham ton, than in the manner adopted by the f r' l °, bie uf " th °l o the Member far London. According to the thatstatemens ass Hon. Member for Essex he was led to understand her agricultural interest had withdrawn their confidence re gret Majesty's Government. To this he could only ear ° ir e nv that they should have seen reason to withdraw the 01 , 00 fidence, but he would nevertheless consider it his th dutY ! e a r l i est , of what he considered best calculated to s erve e niint rit ea' the country, as he believed the policy of the G overn e e coaa tr i duced to the general good. If they contrasted _surd not as it was in 1841, with what it was at present, it,.% dace. but be admitted that a great improvement had talr liit a,, he With respect to the changes that had taken place i n t 0 (0 0 ' believed that so far as they had not increased the price lie, they had had a beneficial effect. The welfare Of tho r n r o u t r ia att tors of land did not dend upon the sum which oded bring in the market.—(Hear, hear.) H e asked tu v aat ine. proprietors whether the returns from corn the circeil;counts which determined their welfare. If he looked upon thittag fro which were given of the state of the country as rest' that t he the high prices of corn, he was perfectly satisfleo446. landed interact would not be benefited by such a gate F o L it t he (The Right Hon. Gentleman then read ext racts of communications of a General commanding in the Or the sts te t land to the Secretary far the Home Department, sn euto trY A of the country in May, 1841, and the state o f the , 0,1 og re : present, from which it appeared that the former P e . r i l f er most disturbed one, and the latter was so tranclai, oter„ taken in a question which had recently from political agitation, that there was no i n tere i st orhe d ri r ; public mind—namely, the Maynooth question.) the s lea tiaued the Right HOL Gentleman), depend upon it,..„„ai of things in 1842 could not have continued( I . Pi e d of " Hear, hear.*') The Honourable Meraberd for bl i a had said that be had been disappointed , anle, e , t he y withdrawn his confidence from her Majesty's ur L a r t it ala -60 much dst oit , c ee iv consequence of the course which they had pursue° d his °°": had not gained his confidence—if they had forfeite , th abl dence in consequence of the rapidity—(A beP e d they had proceeded in those changes, he most certtrille that he would proceed, if not in accordance with,at af e a , c 'a the Opposition, at least in a common expression er,”coevia',44 fidence in them.—( Hear, hear.) He was perfecl t he/ under any circumstances, that the principles on w li b ic r aostl ' to proceeded were sound ; but he thought it most ju'a' t ay, he ,toi t and most prudent not to proceed too rashly and b a- the - take that cautious and deliberate course which I°looo certain to secure the permanent prosperity of t a h f ar ed.),,,er The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down loudly eh arid - 00 Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that as a'before pied so much of their time on the questi c t a tions ° dia. House, he would very briefly refer to the °be' aa e rse had been made by Honourable Members in thea-teaf I ,,c h e it es debate. When he had such testimonials of the a l ive s d f[thei dustrious classes from day to day—when he fours a las," • i d l ed of the corn-laws ceasing from using argurnenl ( 0 1 ' 1 ;10 had been in the habit of using, and these 0 ",, 011 4 Os! force—it WAS obvious that th time must se,e i ' e oos i . a n 'aarre ° restriction would cease, when Parliament werna t e be : t ar the e a duty of 40s, or 50s. per cent., ought no loage i r f e sn , a ute pa i r as injurious to the farmer and the labourer. ba ted 0 0P"' 0 . 11 to state this to the House--theg were in 0 ft - d raisa,,ttet . five prosperity—the people in the north were -re - - a le e. tical disturbance—their labourers generally co' , o %g' than when food was high. Parliament, thereforea h est .e t e as Into without any suspicion as to its motives. O a oathet'bu area the circumstances before it, to come to a deeis ie at h e tloa 9e portant matters.—( Hear, hear.) Wh a tever etig to th e fel t sult of the resolutions which he had subraitted ot the: bad that night, the great question would remain,' re Was ie rsra convinced that in a time of distress, when ta e i n ot ta l 130 harvest, and corn was high in pric e , they can't „ a sset' s aoo the present torn-laws exactly as they were at alit Part; if the Government were to propos e t hat 014 tbs t ' in the corn-laws, no one would pretend t o say oessr tot in that House would be capable of resisting alai me n to g, t he this would be the case, and he called on them , „,,„:dered t rle, te , such a concession—he appealed to those who aaai t he Pe ir present law increased the price of the Was The re' make such a concession as the one pointed er_ en t lisa re . Honourable Baronet at the head of the Gove nu' it34 l, an o u t ee ferred to the changes which had taken place sin e ee _dohs ' o f He (Ler $ in fer e r a e s d ur t e o s t w h h e i c ch irc t u h m e s G ta o n v c e e rn as me if ot it h w ad er t e a k ne n n . i Russell) considered those changes had bee caused'Aerial afterati m ade m • Gori c ' e j seasons—( Hear, hear) —and that ht by an unwise the argument. If they were broils and he measures had !Prod; o f anent into a bad state, a n t - t such an unespeeted sto_, prosperity, they might expect that But if from ° w ol things might continue without check. taken pis ee_ 0 time they had seen the alterations which fl .oporterair r if by chsilog, is the country and to its property would occur. , a the a u , Edward Knatchbull brought forward a motion ni, a rei f ' te could not but expect that alterations of vast: in ral ..ffe at that distress was not partial but g eneral, in whic h ' ° h oe ported by a number of Members on the cabe veto a do House. In Iti3ti a debate ensued on topics anal o g sere tet3i,st involved in that debate, in which admission' d iell'ala similar to those heard in the course of that disedit; the e ' r t the great prosperity in the variou s b ranc h e s Of fr a veal sisal cotton, and other branches of manufacture Sier... u by in i u des increased in quantity and exportation, an dial of ae . gai i consumption, and yet in 1837 there was a v ast f corn and dangerous speculation. In 1838 the pricy ou to 01, to rise to a price that was seriously m1)1 1 ; 0 7 araf e . o 4 bourer, which continued for the years 1839, is - _ n a se, e fe' when there was a continuance of bad harvests, sea and distress amongst the people. He would aska sis oss to ter rence to one Government or to another, if •t"to er t he aufficient indication that they might have agar°, (m ania f ool similar seasons of distress to 'that which existeee, g aol 0 0 years? He really wished to put it to the Hout ic a h e je rid: all other consislertions—as a question an l a now Je d thoroughly convinced himself—whether they W0u . .„ 0 ,41 , :, what measures they thought best--whether they - shekel) that if alterations were to be made, th e l tu a..V.;Fa i made in this time of comparative prnsP eri aa that i i a .s° A Noble Lord had said in the course of the deb a r ser tu (sh e o r tection were carried a little further, it Was sure rese t that an alteration of the corn-laws would in mac} ora le most beneficial to the farmer. This was bat feet agreement with the public interest. 13 ' 1 ,-, t „ t ae rora elt e tt Gentleman had raised another question- The " - e bad P t re oti ° no objection to part of the resolutions which _ this and even they seemed to think that legislation 0 " d ere o might be held on a part of it. tu t Sir R. PEEL—That could only be obtained by 0 t he to the Crown. a tee° O t for Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection are it wsl . 0 11 course that was to be pursued. But it clea r ' c olas! ht , duty of the Ministers of the Crown to legislate 600 pligke bt any class. He thought that the same °bi file tt ; erg raised by the amendment of his Hon. Friend the Thot Wolverhampton to the purpose of the Committee. ha d si r Hon. Gentleman said another of his rascalcolleague' th:, confidence of the Hon. Baronet the Member fea, tb !f el Tyrrell), and he thought while stating tet- t hera r i e e tee,ll should also recollect what was just t? th a that the Ministers had come into power oa t. . 00 ° 0 1 the ground of which they had never carriedd the er a rd who thought with him would say the tariff, an •th the ce lts o f tion of tallow and cattle, had not so interfered Y', i bi aar l a rti" l a prosperity as to militate against the interests et t ` this te d f e classes. The small importation of cattle in ° 0 s tre e d d' i el from abroad could not in any great degree h o tt , Ca ns h od er r ee markets, nor could the introduction of core 111) hi ve to 011 o a, greatly injured the interests of the farmers or, w eedois t it af the general prosperity. He could not be P re- aeat 'a l ot i ai r with all the principles of the measures a the r e f pc rael but certainly he thought that the farmers ' I ofg o a, reason to complain of the measures of the Rig a , a o o Lbt 0 or net. He did not mean to complain of the,, ,'" he Pire i , e oQ s Right Hon. Baronet; but the speeches as t he ae, Gentleman in 1840 and 1841 had certainly. le", le o l 'abo,„ f a te° the country to expect measures based on princrrthoaa s ovr h al posed to those en which he had always acted ci h ee i he t , repeated, he believed the measures which h e I a ot were useful and not injurious. At the electioe:oat ,11 begun a series of measures which would ee t rt all „ t al tb l o ha obtained for him the confidence he anPasclPL i rd'atit The lion. Member for Essex had expresslY h e (`'„eafr t asr ( Hear, hear .) It was not to be expected th,atoern'-orrif Russell,) could give his confidence to the ' o f $ 1 0 0% of however anxious he might be as a member - e t h rta ti , he party to reduce the influence of the Ministry, tr i ,rhi% that he would rather support them tlla ti od ' u flee oar the Hon. Baronet the member for Essex; - - h ad was opposed to their general policy, if he w' l e fere e ''' measures carried, he should feel obliged, in Pr di' port the Ministry now in power. The Noble Lord sat down amid lend cheers' f 0 P h ` ,t 9 °, 1 0 , Lord CLENIENTS rose amid loud cries, % i d _, o lutra at y vide," "Go on," " Order," &c. He coml"s1 th e '" lusion whatever had been made to Ireland a i , fl e an° s , t pla ot ter —(" Oh, oh," " Divide, divide.") It align" OM" c rl, gined that a repeal of the union had alread4 oh i e 1. 0 (Cries of " Oh, oh," and laughter.) Tile in vain attempting to be heard sat down- a retl- -- 33 The House then divided, when there app e • a 3 „ fl For the amendment ........................... • Against it ..................... ............ ••' ben .Mete Majority against the amendmen t • - t ia ' a, The House again divided on the original Ine appeared— 1 04 For the resolutions ................. lfag /5 „ r Against them ............................... ' oet° l l, Majority against the resolutions ••• a to sag ea Mr. HENDLEY called upon the Spe ak ea be ts ‘ c od t Members were to be excluded from the n e : soo he e off/ ee sions upon two separate motions. The re . by th question was, because he was refused a dmit" ore' of the House on the first division. afen'a r Sir E. FILNIER concurred: with the tot a l ad e a. , v der s site, as he was one of those who had been exa_d eateabutad ,‘,, ° The SPEAKER said that the officers n' Memb er ~ misapprehension of their duties, for H on ' oacts• admitted upon each division. to T' gt: ' The House then adjourned at a Q uarter _ a, Nor On the ISth ir'st., at Morwick House, - ) I r 6• lade of Hour.; Mayhew, E s q., of a d aug lis o yster , On the,l3J). BIRTH 8. t i u mber ls9 19(11 rust., at Newton-road, ) the Chsaa,tl, of a son. af 0 S itive, Peter Koch, lasq., of a son. tee • • ce, liiscoan On the 26th inst., in Eatort-pla On the Ist inst., at Frankfort -on - a daughter. the ' corn to this country. They never even had referred to the agricultural produce of America. If they only allowed corn to come from Australia without coming under the Canadian duty, they would, indirectly, by that reception bestow a great benefit upon both countries. They should exchange with other countries,by which their feud and the wants of the people might be furnished. He would call the Right Hon. Baronet oppo site as a witness of the advantage of low prices, fur he had lately told them what the Ministry had done for them. Ile had told them that as food had guile down In prices, and as wages had he:teased, that chime had diminished and education had extended itself. That was this account of the Right lion. Baronet opposite, who stated that the supply of food was great, and the price of food was low. These advantages were dependent only on the barometer; but they should not depend alone on the tenor of the weather, but also upon the good will of the nation and the continaance of industry. By the adop tion of those principles vindicated in his Noble Friend's reso lutions, not only would great advantages be conferred on the labouring classes, but those advantages would be carried to their greatest height. The present state of the law, as it affected prices of agricultural produce, could nut be upheld ; for if it were, it would be impossible that there could be any continued demand for labour. The more he persevered in following this subject into its minute details, the more the stronger he found his argument fortified, namely, that the lower thy prices of feed, the greater the abundance, as well as the advantages to be derived to the country from such a state of things. It was quite clear that a state of the law which would enable the poor to supply themselves with a cheaper and more abundant supply of food and clothing than they now could do, the better would it be for all classes of the community, be cause it would cause an increased demand, net only for the ma nufactures of this ceuntry, but also for imported articles.— ( Hear hear.) If the Government permitted a free trade in corn, ;hat led necessarily to cause a further increase in the re venue of the manufacturers, and then again that would, in its turn, lead to a greater consumption of agricultural produce.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was quite clear that there could be no greater blessing to the country than abundance and cheapness, while, on the other hand, nothing could be more deplorable than scarcity and high prices.—( Hear, hear.) They knew, from what they had heard in that House that evening, that the agri cultural classes had not hitherto participated in the advantages of a good harvest.—( Hear, hear. )—And, until the prices of agricultural produce should be reduced to their proper level, the farmers of this country would find it difficult to meet their engagements.—( Hear, hear.) W hat did the present state of things augur but this, that the present supply was not com mensurate to the demand.—( Hear.) Whereas, if the Govern ment did but increase the facilities of produce, there could be no doubt. that the prosperity of the farmer would be increased. These were the views he entertained on this subject, and, holding them, he could not but support the resolutions of his Noble Friend, for he regarded them, beyond all doubt, as tending towards the prosperity of the farmer, and the pro motion of the happiness of the working classes, of this country. —( Hear, hear.) But he should confess he felt inclined to go even further than his Noble Friend in the assertions recognised in the principles he laid down; but such as they were, if they should not be carried out to the fullest extent, he feared that this House would see, in a few short years, perhaps a few months, the whole of their beneficial schemes tumbled to the ground.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Here the Noble Lord was interrupted by cries of " question, question." Hon. Gentlemen might cry " question,' but he thought they were bound to listen to the arguments of those who were of opinion that the present system operated most epressively on the working classes. In his opinion the time for compromise had gene by. Compromise would have been per fectly practicable a few years ago, but now the time was come when the corn-laws and every other protective duty ought at once to be repealed. He would deal with the corn-law and every other protective duty. He would abolish at once and immediately every duty not levied bona fide for the purposes of revenue. Whatever was intended for protection he would at once repeal. The difference between him and the Right Hon. Baronet was as to the beat mode of arriving at free trade. The Right Hon. Baronet wished to do so gradually—he ( Lord Howick) thought the best mode of ar riving at it was the shortest, the most direct, the quickest. This, too,, would be for the interest of the agriculturists themselves, because what they wanted was certainly for the future. This was his great objection to a fixed duty now, tor there would be no certainty in a fixed duty. Experience de monstratingly proved that the wisest course was to get rid of protection. The system of protection was a delusion. A gra dual relaxation of that system would be liable to great objec tion. It would keep trade in a perpetual fever, which would cause great loss and injury. But this was not the question im mediately raised by the first resolution. The question raised by the first resolution was, whether the condition of the la bouring classes was satisfactory or otherwise. If otherwise, could Parliament improve it; and if they could improve it, was it not their duty at once, and without delay, to apply them selves to the remedy.—( Cheers. ) Sir J. HAMER argued that a reduction of protective duties would not benefit the consumer in this country, inas much as experience had taught them that when the import duty on any article was abolished the price of that article abroad was immediately raised. It should be recollected that one-eighth of the whole population last year received paro chial relief. There was one thing to which he was desirous of calling the attention of the House—the education of the people of the people in the fine arts. Some years ago an elector, after telling him at the hustings that poverty had stripped him of his franchise, expressed an earnest wish that ha ( Sir J. Hanmer) would in Parliament support measures for the edu cation of the people in works of science and art. He had since done so, and would be always most anxious to forward the views of the poor man whose object was to give his children the means of obtaining a decent livelihood. In 1835, before a Committee of that House on the fine arts, much valuable evi dence was given. And the engraver of the Mint, Mr. Cockerel], an architect, and others, gave evidence to the effect that a ge neral diffusion of artistical and scientific knowledge would be most advantageous to the country. In fact he thought it would open a channel for the employment of much useful and ingenious labour. He thought everything ought to be done which could be done to improve the cultivation of the land and place this country in this respect on the same par with other countries, as it was in point of skill and manufactures. Sir ROBERT PEEL had heard with surprise the expres sion of the lion. Member for Sunderland, that apathy per vaded the majority of the House on the question then before it, and had charged disregard of the welfare and condition of the people upon his side of the House more particularly. If he (the Right Hen. Baronet) thought that real indifference was felt on the condition not only of the labouring classes, but of the entire community, he should agree with the proposition so emphatically advanced, that such was a proof of the incom petency of that House to legislate for the welfare of the country. —( Hear, hear,) But it was in no such feeling that the list lessness of the House was to be sought. It was rather attribut able to the predominant conviction, that the Noble Lord had not brought forward his resolutions either in the spirit or the method calculated to ensure success in Parliament, or advan tage to the country. He had alluded to the absence of the Mem ber for Dorietshire in rather unfair and certainly unmerited terms. No man could have evinced a greater anxiety for the welfare of the people, nor have devised more satisfactory mea sures for their benefit and prosperity.--( Hear, hear.) But he had taken a different course from the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London. He had suggested practical measures, not general and indefinite propositions, and he was the last person on whom an invidious expression on his absence should be passed. The Noble Lord might have turned to the right and left on his own side of the House and seen many Members who would support him in his present motion, who were not to be found in the number of those who supported him in the early part of the evening. He would not take the course pursued by the Hon. Members opposite, but would merely mention what, perhaps, others were not aware of—that at the early part of the evening an attempt had been made to get rid of the question by counting out the House.—( Laughter. ) He could not see that any useful purpose could be answered by undertaking a change in the policy of the law. And as to the expediency of bringing for ward a series of propositions, each of them deserving a separate discussion, and requiring some considerable time—such time as was worthy of the importance of the subject—the test was best found in the course adopted by his followers. One had alluded to the poor-law, another to the suffrage. But, independent of the number and incongruity of the propositions, it was im possible to follow or adopt them. No abstract resolution could or ought to be adopted as to a change in the laws, before the mode whereby the change was to be effected had been promul gated, or at least suggested.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to colonisation, there never had been a time when a more exten sive scale was proposed and open to a Government than when the Noble Lord was Secretary for the Colonies. He (the Right Honourable Baronet) would not retort by taunt or reproach, but he would remind the Noble Lord opposite, that, with all the facilities offered at that period, he was unable to suggest a plan of systematic colonisation. That the subject was of importance he freely and unequivocally admitted, but before he pledged himself to any system he should like to know its nature and details.-- ( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had done justice to the course pursued by his opponent% in the prosecution of this debate. The absence of asperity had been marked, and he hoped that such calm and dispassionate discussion would always charac terise the consideration of a subject so important and mo mentous. But what had been the course adopted by the Go vernment with respect to the education of the peo ple ? They had lately proposed for Ireland a vote of 75,0001. for the purposes of national educa tion. In 1841 the vote was 50,0001. In 1841 the sum proposed for educational purposes, in England, was 30,000/., in 1844, 40,0001., and for the present year the amount voted had been no less than 75,000/., being an advance of 35,000 L on the present over the preceding grant. But he thought they had done nothing which ought to dishearten them. They had increased the grant for educational purposes from 40,000/. to 70,000/. He considered it a great object to promote educa tion, when it carried with it the approbation of all parties. The resolutions of the Noble Lord, he thoaght, would be of little value, when compared with the systera which the Go vernment intended to promote, and to aid which the Government would call upon those who, by their money and time were capable to co-operate with them in the attainment if the object. But let us not be too liberal with the expendi ture of the public money. Let us proceed gradually, with pru dent generosity, to insure the co-operation of those who are willing and competent to assist us. He knew of no higher con necting link between the lower and the higher classes than the desire of those who were able, and came forward voluntarily to contribute to the comfort of individuals, to whose labour they were so much indebted. The Noble Lord demanded that we should give our support to a rather liberal and extensive mea sure for the promotion of education. We have already had the authority of a fatal experience of measures founded on liberal and comprehensive principles.—( Hear.) It is easy to make the proposition—it is more easy to bind ourselves by a pledge, but let us pause and consider before we in any way commit ourselves. We thought that the Educational Bill was a liberal and comprehensive measure, but we had reason to congratulate ourselves that nopledges had been given in a restricted degree. He objected to the resolutions of the Noble Lord that they amalgamated together too many circumstances which could be much better disposed of by single discussion, and he ob jected to the Noble Lord's request that we should legislate with respect to education, to colonisation, and to parochial settlements. This, in his opinion, was the principal objection against the reception of the resolutions that had been proposed by the Noble Lord. The Right Hon. Baronet then proceeded to read the resolutions which had been proposed by Lord John Russell, and said that he was surprised that the Noble Lord the member for Sunderland had expressed his intention to vote in favour of those resolutions, because the Noble Lord had previously indicated some objection to pursue such acts and deliberate arrangements as might be more beneficial to her Majesty's subjects. He ( Sir Robert Peel) did not know how he cuuld differ from the Noble Lord, or take those resolutions into consideration unless accompanied by those arrangemer• which would be more beneficial to her Majesty's subject- He really thought that the Noble Lord would have 0- - omote ' d that course as they had riot pledged themselves course, except it were accompanied l' „. to any particular liberated arrangements," which e these w ,s b , would an t d de were believed meat mote the interests of all el .is , es of her ilajest considering the tAture of the po li cy that hail been i hitherto pursued, he could not conceive how it was possible the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland should vote in favour of the resolutions proposed by the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland had underrated agitation on the sub jecs, The Noble Lord who had introduced the matter, had also declared, that in the event of the resolutions ho pro posed being carried, he should recommend a fixed duty of either be., Os., or 7s. If he was well supported by his friends and the House lie would propose tie. ; if otherwise, then he wvuld propose es, The Noble -------- !OSP DIED. On theal.,2esithLiandsyt.,TiiinoLng,laegseeacipBl;.ce, Southampton' the Dow • • froJer iJ m a jor Early in January last, in New South Walei, it . l i a s li n o ob v ii e ni net,dheoeilii,l2yfsostr surviving I t: eviriTNiy,s•itno. inst., liar Ma I,l:lE(oarjit.eitsahtlylo:ls.lpa3lt4actLi , 11 1 0 , g ii i!: , 1 10 ,1 0 n ~ 1• 511 1 0 ( e , lane, Fleet-street. ii 3 f sl3s On the 2t;th inst., in North Wales, Agnrels'.:::l6Bl°'tli: daughter of Dr. Day. Southwick -street. YOV:44'.f London: Printed and Publish ed by 111URPO - Ilse No. 112, Strand, Printer , at The Sup& Officab `' oal og • Strand, in tie l'rectuct of the Savoy,* ow iliddleaez, Thursday, May 21, 11464 R TE, APecti k k , b