The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

_ll,ee n thought if they cou ld b e o f a conc ili at i ng temper an d sp i r i t t l at i on were necessary on t h at su bj ect, h av i ng at t h e i r C om . .w o n .. discu ss i ng questions of this kind, they could better attend in sod the first legal assistance in England and Ireland, and e advic e conta i ne d in her Majesty's speech, to apply their also the advice of persons best acquainted with the real affairs " ri th. , "d to improving the social condition of a pesple who were in both countries—he could not but believe, that with such longnatu re ki n d -hearted and generous, but who had been too aid, it would not have been altogether impossible 1 17.' 1 .5 ,neglected, and thus d eve l o pi ng t h e resources o f t h at b eau - th at a measure f or e ff ec ti ng suc h an i mprovement land. With res p ec t t o t h e mo-ion of the Noble Lord the as legislation could effect might have been ready at the time • a ! ether for Lonilen, it was a mere party attack of one great when Parliament again met. Ile said that was an opinion division of the House upon the other, and, of course, they should which he could nut help feeling somewhat inclined to entertain. 411 be found voting under their particular banners. At the same time, he was far from venturing to condemn the Lord HOWICK, who was i n th e con Tenement of his ob- I issuin o f th a t com mi ss ion ; it was possible that the difficulties n ervations somewhat inaudible, was understood to say that on of the g subject might be greater than he thought, and that thi s both cities of the House it seemed, as far as the debate had yet step might have a necessity. He thought it was an unfortunate z () nel _to be ad m i tte d t h at no prospect had yet been held out by necessity; but, still, he admitted that such a necessity might her ,Jejesty's Government of a measure which should produce have existed. But the conclusion he drew from it co ntent and t ranqu il l i ty i n Ireland. The House would re- was this—that if a ll t h ey cou ld d o towards reme- Tember th a t i mme di ately before the Right Hon. and Learned dying the physical d i stress o f t h e Irish people, was l entleman got up to speak, the Right Hon. Baronet the Se- to afford them the distant prospect of improvement Pcretary of State for the Horne Department h a d r i sen f or t h e h e ld out to them b y t hi s mu c h talked of commission, urees. • . . 0 1 explaining certain expressions used by him, and he thought it far more necessary that they should pro etlemn had been adverted to by the Right Honourable vide other m easures, which he believed were more inditpen d't other for Kildare (Mr. More O'Ferrall). It sable. It appeared to him that the more they considered the "'Veered to him (Lord Howick ), he confessed, actual state of Ireland, the more ground there was for coming that the Right Hon. Gentleman's explanation was longer than to the conclusion, that they could not efface discontent from t a h n e d not so e'.ear as the words he had originally used ; but, at that country by the mere removal of its physical distress. No . acne time, he hail not perceived ant material difference in doubt great poverty affected the masses ;no doubt the struggle wor e meaning. If he understood the "Right lion. Baronet's which existed there to obtain the means of even the most miser- Noble, heJames Graham ) had been told by his able existence, entered deeply into the causes of their discon iio... Friend the Member for the City of London (Lord John tent. But he was persuaded that this bitterness was greatly s "eil) that we had military occupation of Ireland, which was increased, and never could have risen to the point at h °l ' governed. The Right Hon. Gentleman replied (and if which it had then arrived, if there had not rankled t ar he he cou'd correct his words)—" Yes, we have mills in the minds of the people a constant sense of injury and wrong; s •a ho Y..,,Oc . cupation of Ireland, and it was necessary that we Hence, even if her Majesty's Government had been prepared win have it when we saw obvious sign* of a design to to deal with the physical evils of Ireland in a much larger and e ! t i t from us by phy s i ca l f orce ." Those were th e wor d s more comprehensive manner than they were p re p are d to do— or :ie Right H on. Gentleman. What was the real meaning had they been prepared to submit at once a law in relation to Brestsaying they hail military occupation of Ireland? landlord and tenant—had they been prepared to propose the v s :" they perceived indications of an attempt to setting on foot a plan for public works, on an extensive scale, Wh:t d• t from them by physical force.—( Hear, hear.) were they prepared with a well considered system of colonise out the RI that mean, but that they were conscious that through- tion, even were they prepared with all these measures, still he ditaffe. great body of the Irish people there reigned a spirit of should have said that even these would not have produced the ''tmn—that they were retained in their allegiance, not by effect desired, they would not have their influence unless ac sense th e of duty, but by a sense of prudence, in consequence of companied by other measures calculated to remove from the o,,eoree that the Government were able to maintain there— minds of the people of Ireland the galling sense of injury (Hear, hear) their hearts were alienated from them, and and injustice, more especially with reference to the tr e ' r t , P°wer tested, not upon affection, but force? That was partial treatment of the religion to which they belonged. • sent end ;that meaning of what the Right Hon. Gentleman had Unless they were prepared to do something in this respect, gleel—that was the real meaning of the measures which her every other measure they could adopt would be unavailing. st a l .e ' t Y: . Government had adopted. But if that was the real Was it possible the Irish people could fail to feel most bitterly 1./ 0 oi things, he wanted to know—and the Right the pressure of the manner in which they had dealt with the i t umtrable Gentleman at the same time admitted, that religion to which the great body of the people belonged ? h Was ass ll,; a state whi c h cou ld no t p ermanent ly con ti nue . it possible that the partial treatment of that ancie n t f a ith, t o The ad told th em t h at they could not always govern by force. which the bulk of the people clung with such attachment— of th ) : might do so for a time—for a short interval such a state ( Hear)—when compared with the treatment given to all other gov _mgs might be endured—but as a permanent instrument of faiths, should not create in their minds a constant rankling, and vre _n e rnnient in Ireland force was entirely ineffective. Those sense of injustice, which, while it existed, they could never rua r d the words of the Right Hon. Gentleman. But having hope to win their affections ? The Right Hon. Gentleman had ast e _ eer hat admission—when the Right lien. Baronet, the said that, since Roman Catholic Emancipation was cirried, host tor Devonport (Sir G. Grey having quoted that the principle of religious equality had been fully en ha r emarkable deelaration on the part of the Government, forced in Ireland. Ile (Lord Howick) was at a loss th asked what were the means they proposed fur recovering to understand the grounds upon which he maintained that heet.,affections of the Irish people—what rational prospect they argument. What were the simple facts of the case? The odd of getting rid of the spirit of disaffection which pre- Roman Catholic Church was the ancient Church of Ireland. N ot tt amongst that people—what was the answer from the Some three centuries ago, or rather mere, the endowments f o ,,'e Lord, the Secretary for Ireland? He was sure he felt were, by their act, transferred from it to the l'rotestant w h' e r ne difficulty in which his Noble Fiiend found himself. But Church—the Protestants being a small minority of the popula ,,,e_ asked a question of such vast importance as that, the tion—the great body of the people still adhering to their ancient 'ile"ltentan holding the highest situation in immediate con- faith. Further, the great boey of the people, from whom they co mp ", with the Government of Ireland could do nothi n g but wrested their endowments for their religious wants, was the akiisntdrib•uotriweitardefwith some miserable details in defence of his poorest population in Europe, while those to whom they patronage, and of attempting to prove how assigned the Church revenues were ate wealthier classes. Nor th st a nd good his intentions were towards Ireland. When was this all. 'f hey added insult to injury. Even to the Pres et-thwas all his Noble Friend could come forward with—while byterians, who were, by the letter of the law in Ireland, as as o.o e _,sarne time he (Lord Howick) knew his intentions were much Dissenters as the Roman Catholics, they gave a share of fro; as he stated—when he heard such a statement as that the bounty of the State. The only part of the popula tit: Noble Friend, the ease must be very serious indeed. tion they left unprovided with the means of religious relle4, r, bear.) Had her Majesty's Government seriously instruction was the great bulk of the people—that oil de on the import of the words they had used, or class which stand most in need of pecuniary assistance. th eate `tie greatness of the danger those words in- Now he would ask them was that just? Did they think that such ? Did they suppose that in the existence of Ireland could be reconciled to the continuance of that state ea se general disaffection as that, that it was a of things, by such arguments as they were in the habit of i tori fowhere they could wait for a more convenient sea- hearing in that House, and which they had heard that night ho ur n r f .P . , r °Posing better measures—did they suppose that every from the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Shaw)? 1, 51 tr - u ue lay was not of the utmost. importance ? Why, it Let them recollect that it . was in vain for them to reason d ever lihr o , d, e t while peace lasted, while they were riot attacked from so closely in their own minds, unless theycoutd h persua e the an ee t _ he believed there was no sort of danger of open . resist- Irish people to agree . with them. They mig reason as ezhibi , their authority, and that if there were such resistance closely as the best logicians that ever camefrom their univer lestted, he w as certa i n i t wou ld b e represse d . Whil e peace s i t i es. Th e i r prem i ses mig ht b e uns h a k en , a nd their chain of Ara' nt It wits true. But the very consequence of that state of reasoning unbroken—all that might be the case, yet if they t hatl„:" , that all improvement in Ireland was arrested, failed to convince the minds of the Irish people they were as was relation of lif e was poisoned, and the whole country far from their object as ever. What they had to consider was th e i r d with strife and ill-blood ; men's passions raised, and not whether their arguments were good, but whether they Proa ue fl ier excited one against the other, and a state of society would weigh with the Irish people. He knew full well that . were f o u which, he thought, must be intolerable to all who he was wearying the House, but. he could . not avoid entering t ent o f r i e jd to abide amidst it. That might be the utmost ex- into one or two of those arguments which had been brought . s would es 'T e evil, and, God knows, it was bad enough. But he forward. One of the first respecting the Church Establish mreien—‘, had they reflected what would be the result if a ment, which had been advanced by the Right Honourable were"; war broke out—whet would he their situation if they Gentleman, rested upon the Act of Union, and he eei s t ee . 'gain called on to carp on a mortal struggle for their found great fault with his ( Lord Howick's) friend ageneirC ith a foreign enemy—when, ) amidst such' difficulties, for saying that the fifth article of the Act of not r y ,,third of the whole populaion of theempire were Union ought to be expunged.—( Hear, hear.) What they ready to take part with them, but against them—when was the ground of the Right Hon. Gentleman's . objection to o e ready, On the first favourable opportunity, to rise up that ? Why, that the Parliament of Ireland, which agreed to from da ..,ade Government with that deadly hatred which sprung that provision, was exclusively and purely Protestant, and that ivli dissensions? Did they really consider how fearful a they never would have agreed to the union else. They might 'tn' ns , at ,was ? Pea ce m i g ht continue, but it was more than have been purely Protestant, but they were certainly pure in that th - e e m" say that it was t o l as t f or ever . Did they not see no other sense.—( Hear, hear, a n d lau g ht er .) What was called ycontinuance of such a state of things furnished them, the Irish Parliament was the most notoriously corrupt assembly % eau ; Petty mi sun d erstanding, with a temptat i on, k now i ng t h at h a d ever met, and could h ave no pretence to have ever re- Ntsi ste " of England's weakness, to ask for that which was in• presented the opinions of the Irish people. It had bee n said— big sn it with her interests. Did they not risk, by maintain- and he believed the Right Hon. Gentleman would say so him- With 1 7 1 a state of thi ngs , th e p o wer of carrying on war se lf—th a t as a re p resen t a ti on o f th e I r i s h p eo pl e i t was th e 4r betea j o a 'Fe ? That was the effect of the policy now veriest farce and delusion that had ever been acted ; and to say tog _aids Ireland.—( Hear. He knew what he should be that that. Parliament, because it was purely Protestant, was at so nh t hat tho se were things which ought not to be publicly liberty to tie the great English and Irish nations to all per athi,‘„eurned,—that the danger of the country ought hardly to be petuity—( Hear, hear)—and combine in making one thing for by f erte a ar ' i nuch less publicly mentioned in that House. If, ever binding in their consciences, was to maintain a system its existenc eg .to speak of the danger they could get rid of which shook every principle of natural justice. When the the re al stat e ; if, .however they might delude themselves as to Right Hon. Gentleman said that the union was a ground for sto o d by eof thing s , he could believe that it was not under- maintaining the Church Establishment, he only furnished an i mPort i t rin n _ os e to whom the knowledge of it was of such argument to the Hon , and Learned Member fur Cork in favour s t'ount ry ` to `• -- ti lf he did not believe that to open the eyes of the of the repeal of the union ; but as an argument to reconcile the the situation in which they were placed was the Irish people to that Church Establishment, Inc must indeed have in: te eP. ot!ttrrying such measures as that situation required— the simplicity of a child to have for a moment believed it. sp o k u m o n . ot entertain that conviction, he should not have One of the chief ornaments of the Established Church said that h 5,0 that state of things. But, thinking so he should the only ground upon which an Established Church could be th 'i_e 4 ll , l? . his duty if lie did not tell them the he in maintained, was on that of conferring benefit on the great body rep eati u tl e_ annlieved them to be ; and here he could net avoid of the people.—( Hear.) Some of the ablest and best defenders again observation.. which had been made over and over of our Church admitted that it should be maintained only so far "reiand that House, that it was not th.• existence of agitation as it promoted the spiritual welfare of the great body of the that was the source of that danger, that it was not people • that it should be supported for the advantage of the the /iolent Incl u se . angnage used at meetings, that it was not the enor- greater number. When the anomalous position of the Irish the multitudes that attended those meetings, that it was not people was mentioned to the Right Hon. Baronet, the ece Re peal being organised by the Repeal Association nor the tary of State for the Home department, how did he answer? es e r a ' rent, that in themselves constituted the danger. Those o Oh, yes," said he, "but the great majority of the people of morel the sins and s nch the d y anger rgeally eonsis t te m d p . toms of the disaffection in Great Brit a i n and Ireland belong to the Established Church Rentlena He believed there was no and by the Act of Union it is the United Chutch of England that it was of ordinary reflection who did not agree with him, and Ireland." That was the most satisfactory explanation the pulation in the th s t a t e of mind which prevailed amongst the po- Right Hon. Baronet gape—but did he think that the people' of titled, the rear d country which constituted, and alone consti- Ireland would not see through this shallow sophistry ?—( Hear, inference, that b a y n m ge e r re . If so' did it not follow as a necessary hear.) Did he remember how much that argument prevailed content they did n 0 really repressing the outward signs of dis- when they attempted to force Episcopacy On Scotland?—( Hear, 100 d, it which the signs tent from good, unless they removed that discon- hear,) Why, ii he were not very much mistaken, he hearth hey was possible they proceeded? Nay, • instead of doing the Right Hon. Gentleman himself say, some years ago, in might thereb • increase the danger. one of those highly wrought and beautifully expressed passages fact or rrittsh t do so by blinding ) their eyes to danger. of which he was so much a master, the chief title of the people tho se eet.ts continuance, and by rendering more bitter of Scotland to the admiration of the world, was the manner in they too ` k ' t i o n gs of discontent by the very means which which they resisted Episcopacy in Scotland.—(Hear, hear. ) tot edge of t•epres i i the the agitation. Then he said, if they were He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had told them some ecm'ider policy of her Majesty's Government, they must thing of the Scotch people having trusted to their good clay of th e whether it had been directed to regain the affections mores.—(Hear, hear.) The memory of the Irish was not less ii i, t Jeepeople of Ireland or merely to repress thepower •ltthan his, and they 'would naturally say, what t of . r t e- quic or retentive and maintain external obedience ' to their au hori 7. was good for Scotland must be good for Ireland.—(Bear, hear. ) th..i Was far from denying that force was emen ee necessary to obtain The present condition ofthe Irish Church was the 'te r , • and to prevent the merit and of he authority of the Executive Go- best argument for Repeal, and was contrary to every principle !le yad • e Imperial Parliament from insult. That of natural justice. It was sacrificing the interests of the great half bee mated ; but he contended that the measures which • adoPted for that if flreit care, _ purpose should have been considered ( Hear, hear.) They mistook the interests of the feeling that e . and of a very moderate eharacter ; and that existed in Ireland, and underrated the strength of their ht have h e 'in n with others they would be of no av il No a . ment.. He . firmly believed that the Irish people might have ttre rn cattle to consider In„e). ent, it did the conduct of her Majesty's Go- been induced to submit to the Established Church had not the h ad appear to him that whatever degree of vigour safety of that Church been made the pretext for maintaining tse rep rew iz played, it was confined entirely to their measures cruel abuses.—( Hear, hear.) The Established Church had tln ieas.. tn e g s external signs of disobedience ; and that even in been made the pretext for maintaining the penal laws, which o it s o f tirneneadopted for that purpose there was a singular were a diserace to civilization and the blackest stain on the e e, of foresight, and of firmness ; but that with pages of English history.—(Hear, hear.) They should not rt.,. atith„ d r r r ee. ea dhere had been combined little or nothing i n f orge t that year after year Right Hun. Gentlemen opposite thr'ning of the'rn• Of the measures haying for their aim the came down to that House, and when equality of civil rights the People , affection s of the Irish people, he must say was demanded for the Catholics of Ireland they resisted them, t e l l People h itA field out were infinitely below what alleging that the Established Church would be . shaken to its rent, of “ ti right to expect, and infinitely below what the foundation.—( Hear, hear.) Oh, how a l p sort-sighted was the thertiet."lt, in th e e c"e demanded. In the last session of Par- Right Hon. Baronet when he used such retext as that the ;ery remarkable debate which took place on the (Hear, hear.) Did he not recollect that they would fill the ° that I °n. Member for Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien), Catholiceoleof Ireland with detestation of that Church ? After theer wh at we(the Apposition) side of the House had stated very Emancipation had been granted was not that Church ele nd re the measures which they thought the situation still put forward in the most offensive manner as the opponent 11 0 r equir e d. r • hrtt . U " With H e ( Lord Howick) himself had troubled of the liberties and privileges of the Irish people. For the , sake d .., P er h ae ` very full statement of his own opinions on the of that same Church they had, -elm within the last few years, tft.u,t, in doing so he went beyond the strict line of refused justice on the matter of the franchise, and on the ye gna`iloalt r espo ' u n sib l i.dependent Member of Parliament, having no gulation of municipalities—they would not equahso them with ci ent _ a nce w i th i i tYi and being able to boast of no personal ac- those of England for fear of the Church E . stablishment being it ro4 3 ' r ',° full orfelan'l' But be thought the situation of that endangered.—( Hear,. heart )° Those things, he . repeated, the e _ opini on danger, that it was the duty of all who had had sunk deeply into the hearts of the Irish people. tyt';;etind ti as to the necessity of a change of policy, to state Did they think that three centuries of oppression, for the str,.envernmentat °Pinion' for the consideration of her Mates- purpose of strengthening the bulwarks and outworks of that teary? fro m that and of this House. In reply to what was Church, had not roduced its necessary effects en the minds Posed: butt Opposition) side of the House, her Ma- of the Irish people? Let us put ourselves in the position of the Wil lett _out th e ,;72 ,,, 1t made many objections to what was pro- Irish people, and suppose that they were the stronger country, th e ti ° o , th at -',7`ta s gested nothing whatever of their own. So and that they wanted to force their Church upon us, would we Pleene, oh his 1 : 4 0ble Friend, the Member for London, at not resist them? Yes; and the Right Hon. Baronet would be !h alt ; arid gentled that really they seemed to have changed the first to offer that resistance, and resist it too with the clay 'ask n g, as i f ei ren from the Opposition side seemed to be more. Could the Right Hon. Baronet put his hand on his ° jai r r e , t neY were entrusted with the solemn heart, and say he would submit to such an imposition pa- Rive rest mending to Parliament on their offi- tiently.—(Hear, hear.) For his (Lord Howick's) part, he e ts° 'ilntr a , opt „ f y n some scheme of policy which might would avow that he would not submit to such an injustice—he vilyee.' hale it•l nl eting the distractions of that unhappy would not tamely bow to the yoke. Now, if they would not t!het , h u Ri g ht Hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed em- submit to a Roman Catholic Church Establishment, they being eat ,sa y , ca r i, c,. m ble task of criticising—perhaps, be should ra- Protestants, how could they expect that the Irish people would he, Gor e ,. 'o —at the line or police suggested Her Ma- endure it ? —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. arid Learned Member she ' t ook " l ent had e • •"` uld . 4g al s whe , o r ,at onome, nothing to suggest. for tee niversi y . o U f Dublin, in adverting to the subject, said blpse, and recess to ider what measures they he had taken his stand upon the great ground of religious Wi en( s ,'„, a i r t nnet the what were those measures of the Right truth.—l" Hear, hear," from Mr. Shaw.) Now, if there was tell war n ce rtair eretary of State for the Home Depart- any one thing more calculated than . anothe , r to aggravate the k v erk h e : as h e t aalways did display to the best advantage Irish people, it was such a declaration. That was as much as intuutt beg ith alldust offer to the House ?—(Laughter. ) to say the Roman Catholics were wrong, and we were o,,ed thated, a __ art, COUld show them nothing but right. —(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Shaw.) Yes, yes (conti . a r :ll,h efu s r _;t!ount of empty boxes. He had told them nued the Noble Lord), of course the Hon. and Learned retn,ch to scs titer they were to introduce a Registration Member thinks so ; and so did he (Lord Howick) firmly be , ve t h e , I nclude an extension of the county franchise, lieve ; but what he complained of was legislating upon that t h 'own voter s fro ne e te Int o em also that m some vexatious formalities. opinion. —(Hear.) Catholics had been admitted to an equality of ap atio _ th e 15._ and a commission had been appointed to civil rights. And the Legislature should not tell them by Post, ri Zof l an d . practice in Ireland in relation to the their legislation that their creed was false and idolatrous, at" Which w hich ti :• n tt.that was all positively of the slightest which in effect the Hon. and Learned Member for the Um rpial ne hi rn , ei „"ight Hon. Baronet had to offer, at a versity of Dublin had do(Hear, hear.) Roman Catholics Y, kep t lee of admitted was so critical that all the were as conscientious in their religious belief as Protestants, and HOO 11 by .was arrayed against them, and was the Legislature should not either insinuate their disbelief at ..„a positive rn ) „. 11 ronet the military force—that was all the that conviction er scoff at that religion, by proclaiming one te teens. te u "aa abl e isecretary of State for the Home De- creed as " the ground of religious truth," and treating all who hi s aser e Wi t h _0 su ggest to the British House of Com- dissented from it as if they were unworthy of consideration.— e .` e nehi s _Was gres „ respect to the Bill for registration, such a ( Hear, hear.) What right could he have to assume the ar et v . ', If giv:"Y wanted • and the extension of the count privile eof•I d in u o tl r eetive merits of the Roman `tll q 'antais 'n in a liber • • • g jig g pn le . e . sp ld be of Sre. , e e, a , is yt a and confiding spirit, would o t , t i t th. nea r . ) ould remove a great and crying wrong. that more than half the Christian world adhered to that faith, `couldb oo s b °pn llo7betrausted that it would be conceived in a that it had sent its missionaries to the most remote parts of the Rrett , I.llear, war)e insult concealed under the guise would, whu the.heir exertions promoted the good of their fellow ilut, so, i t _e . He hoped it would turn out a real men anti . glory of God, and who, by their sufferings r eal r meal at th e s uunt remove a wrong which was very and the privations they endured, gave ample proof of their sin- Y a i t , ores, h e barna time, unless it was coupled with cerity ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) lie asserted that they the "ould could tellthe • its shoutl full • ' 4tlt. out be, that • Right lion. Baronet only now t oant ample justice to the people of Ireland, Alt friends of o d of h ow, it %soul(' put new arms into the hands and that at the earliest possible period. If they had granted Ini iiht nei nulis t s it i er ,4 ' h an t d thus enable them to insist on the Catholic Emancipation at an earlier period, and had shown now, also relatin s antial grievances. With respect. to after it a sense of confidence in the Irish people—if some years It 4 n ot h trove adventsa to land, he trusted that that ago they had consented to the Appropriation clause—(Loud in tas P e rfect e l entert_.ge ou , , b ut he confessed he cries of " Hear, hear')—such a formidable systematic agitation t4O hat revs e Y tr ue a' that ru ng some doubts on that point. would not. now pervade that country. He warned that House h et : , in geu l t 7.t greatt __ the social condition of Ireland was before, that by the withdrawal of this clause from the Irish te etk =%lat eat i T can e d c .L . neglected. Some improvement was Clturch Bill they left behind them a much larger demand, and th und or 3' s G ov u., but it was' • at f Q , ' er nment h a another question whether one which would come speedily upon them. If they had only that time the "Y ' one h at t h at . a adepted the most judicious consented to some compromise at .. Roman Ca es,jBsuin, „ e could not improvement ; and he confessed tholics would at once have agreed to in; but they refused, anti, eef t "ttati ol ,‘ , "at cotor 4 be without. some apprehension that he regretted to say, were supported by the prejudices of the stria e Na il: w hich h ere :D.n , they might have excited ;ague people of England. As they had then yielded nothing to the t nar liar Inea. tru r g. He _,titetr there would be not a little diffi- people of Ireland, so now that people would yield nothing to be tO eetn 7_: of reat " i _ulci not but believe that a very much them, and perfect and e mat justice must be ceded to a fire h pe e p existi ng "' differences, "` now, would have done Ireland. He knew that in certain quarters he was titi ou '_ ° ferr e d u rm this so h. ere nees, and quiet the minds of likely to meet with little sympathy, but still he 9ui‘ll un i .. had b ee _a lat er peri l , e , Tt, than even a much larger mea- thought it to be his duty to tell the whole truth, masorithi" m ore and co ns t-- ug when their aeain asserted that the time was now come hd ou nne erat e .d• He did not think th 1 P‘ ' an ld d full and impartial justice to Ireland, the subarld tt nsion ; and heat t iat was when they shou ren er which this might be done. In t.. n e v e! . ritoe Jee.. why it was tro _ omibi t confessed he did not and there were many modes in ° ti t r !' had pen t did a PPear P to t t for Med the majority air p ose - 'secedd at itn, that if her Majesty's among st the • g e different religious persuasions, and there the Pro er, con ,„ pnee to obtain the best assist- testant religion was bt blished ; in Scotland the ma y law es . a 'dome me a15 What improvements of legit- jority belonged to the Presbyterian, and there that was the. Est- THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDA_Y EVI4:NI NG-, FEBRUARY 16, 1844. LORD DUNDONALD'S INVENTIONS. Lord BROUGUIAAI postponed the motion, of which hr had given notice, respecting the petition presented by Lord Dun donald. Lord AIINTO took that opportunity of bearing testimony to the value of one of the inventions of the Noble Lord—an improvement in the application of steam machinery to ve, , sels )f war. It had been subjected to a trial of four or five years, and the experiment had been highly satisfactory, both as to its operation and durability. POOR•LAW UNIONS. The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that he should to-morrow move for a Select Committee to consider the expe diency of making some provision for religious worship and spiritual ,instruction in the poor-law union houses both in England and Wales. • TURNPIKE TRUSTS. The Duke of WELLINGTON gave notice of the inten tion of the Government. to introduce a Bill, in the course of the present session, on the subject of Turnpike Trusts. All the Reports on the subject not having been received, the Bill could not be introduced immediately. STATE OF IRELAND.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. On the motion for resuming the adjourned debate, Earl FORTESCUE rose, and said that he understood a statement had been made in another place which affected him personally, and also the character of the Go vernment, at whose head he was in Ireland. A person high in office had stated that, within three months before the late Government went out of office, seven stipendiary magistrates had been appointed in addition to the existing establishment of stipendiary magistrates in Ireland. Before he proceeded further, he begged to inform their Lord ships that he alone was responsible for those appointments. The Government with which he had been connected had no thing to do with them. On reference to the official documents, he found it was perfectly correct that seven new appointments were made between the 15th of June and the 28th of August, 184!. It was not, however, true that these appointments were made in addition to the existing number of stipendiary magistrates. During the time he had mentioned three vacancies occurred, and those vacancies were tilled up. That left four out of the seven. Of those four, one was appointed in the city of Armagh, at the earnest request of Lord Goeford, in consequence of a dreadful murder that was committed in the neighbourhood. Another was sent to Tralee, in consequence of disputes continually occurring, which terminated in riots amongst the fishermen in the neighbourhood. Another was appointed to a wild coast district in Donegal, in consequence of disturbances having taken place between the people and the revenue police. He did not exactly recollect why the other was appointed, but he knew that the appoint- ment was made under equally urgent circumstances. As these were the facts of the case, he trusted that this would be a sufficient answer to the statement made in another place. He would now turn to the immediate subject under discussion. He could not agree with those who said that this motion of his Noble Friend was ill-timed. No one could doubt its importance—and its importance, he conceived, was a sufficient justification for its full and immediate consideration. He stated that much of the excitement of the people arose from the attempts made to restrict the franchise. But for those attempts, these great meetings would not, in all probability, have been held. lie cited the large amount of the repeal rent, during the last year, compared with former years, a s a p roo f of the great 'discontent of the people. He felt bound to render a due meed of praise to Mr. O'Connell for the manly stand which he made against the propagation of the doctrines which were endeavoured to be spread through out Ireland by the Chartists. During the time when he (Earl Fortescue) was Lord-Lieutenant, the amount of the repeal rent was scarcely more than 2001. for each week, but during the administration of the present Government, it had risen to nearly 2,0001. Mr. O'Connell had refused to accept the highest situation which had been offered to him, but in the instance of his son's appointment, he (Earl Fortescue) would say that Mr. O'Connell never made the slightest application. On the subject of the Irish Church he thought that there could be but one opinion. After some further observations, which were quite inaudible, the Noble Lord concluded, as we understood him, by a wish that the present discussions might tend to the benefit and welfare of Ireland. As he sat down, some Noble Lord moved that the House proceed to the Orderof the Day.—(Laughter. ) Lord HADDINGTON said the Noble Lord complained of a statement that had been made elsewhere, of the dismissal of the stipendiary magistrates in Ireland. It had been stated that the Government removed ten of them, and it was in order to• defend the Government from that charge that the statement was made. The number of stipendiary magistrates in the early part of 1841 was 59, and between June and the 28th of August, that being the day on which the Noble Viscount opposite (Lord Melbourne) left office, seven additional magistrates were appointed. As soon as the present Government came into office, those seven were I 'removed, reducing the number again to fifty-nine, that being the number for which the House of Commons had given a vote. At present there were sixty, being one more stipendiary magistrate than in 1839, 1840, and up to the 15th June, 1841. He did not think therefore that her Majesty's present Govern sent were liable to the imputations which had been at- -... tempted to be cast upon them of setting aside stipendiary ma gistrates for party purposes. Since the time when the present Government came into office four vacancies had taken place, and tbose vacancies had been filled up by the appointment of four of those gentlemen who had been appointed by the late Government. He had nothing particular to say against the motion at present before their Lordships, he could not, how ever, say so much for the speech of his Noble Friend who in troduced the motioitio It was filled with invective and reerimi- nation. He would wish to know for what they were to quarrel ? Why, one was the subject of the Catholic Clergy. But this was an.old subject which had been mooted long since. What he thought still vias, that the Noble Marquis might have selected a more opportune time for bringing this matter before the consideration of their Lordships and the public. This alleged grievance had been brought before Parliament in the year 1805, on which occasion he (the Earl of Haddington) voted along with the Whigs ; for against the Whigs he had no aniftlus when they brought forward measures such as he might conincide in. His Noble Friend beside him, (the Duke of Wellington) had wisely omitted to annex conditions to the Catholic Emancipation Act. The Marquis of NORMANBY—Does the Noble Lord for get the abolition of the franchise of the forty-shilling free hoJaers ? The Earl of HADDINGTON—The Noble Lord was right. He did think that the introduction of any proprosition for the payment of Roman Catholic clergy would be most impo litic at the present time, inasmuch as it would not be aecceptesl by that body. Many propositions had been made with respect to the Established Church in Ireland, by Noble Lords oppo site, but he (the Earl of Haddington) thought the question was, whether they would recognise the Church on the volun tary principle in that country, or whether the whole Church Establishment should be abolished. He thought the proposi tion of the Noble Marquis was a perfect chimera, as the Noble Lord the President of the Council had shown to the satisfaction of their Lordships. According to the Act of Union, the Church as by law established was part and parcel of the law of the land. His Nobl e F r i en d h a d announced that it was not the intenti on of her Majesty's Government to sanc tion in the slightest d egree any measure which could degrade or destroy the Prot es t ant Church in Ireland ; but, at the same time, he (the Earl o f H addington) thought such a determina tion was quite con s i stent with the adoptio n of a course of legis lation which would render a full measure of civil and religious rights to the R oman Catholics. If the agitators of Ireland, for their own purposes, excited th e pass i on s of the people, under pretence o f o b ta i ning their rights, it was for them to prove that the re was ample room to conciliate that people by the a d option of liberal measures.—( Hear. ) The defects in the registratio n system could not be imputed to the Government, since they had announced their intention of bringing in a Bill to remedy the evils which had arisen from an interpretation of the Act which had the effect of diminish ing the number of Irish voters. He denied the imputation that justice was not fairly administered. He.defended the ju dicial appointments of the Government. Were men to be ,ex eluded from the bench, because at some time in the ir lives, they had made sp eec h es distasteful to the Cat h o li c Hier archy ? That ch arge came with a very had grace f rom the Noble Marq u i s , € • w h o, unless he was belied, offered the situation o f . Master of th e R o ll s to Mr. O'Con nell.—(" Hear, h ear ," from the Marquis of Norman 4. ) As to the monster m eet i ngs, it was said that t h e mos t man l y course would have been to have prevented them at first. He said that the Government thought they would wear themselves out ; the Government was not so foolish as to imagine any such thing. The Government did not prevent the first meet ings ; but they took a course by which the people—who saw what passed in Parliament threegh the papers—were warned of the consequences of attending such meetings. As to the dismissal of the magistrates for attending repeal meetings, the Government was p er f ect l y justified in doing i t . No man who attended such a meeting could be depended on for p uttin g down excesses that might ar i se from excitement on o ther occasions. With regard to th e Cl ontarf meetine, he contended tha t t he proclamation a ga i nst i t was issued' quite in sufficient t ime. That meeting wa s ca ll e d together by a sort of military procla mation, which r en d ere d i t absolutely necessary f o r the dduse l Govern ment to interfere. H e admitted that M r. O'Connell every effort to prese rve t h e peace, and not t he slightestdisorder t occurred. But th e a l arm i ng part of t h e subject was this— that this— that one man sho u ld h ave suc h i n fluence asthat when he said peace there was peace ; w h a t might sequence if it suited hi m to sa y rar Marquis opposite (the Marq i n Irelani had uis of lanride) compleined , of the manner io whi c h the persons been brought to justice. He complained of their being C war' T be he he No con. ble great risk in of blood was incurred by the Government the manner in Their which they had proclaimed the Clontarf meeting. Dublin, arraigned for conspiracy,' and said they ought to have been tried for sedition. The Noble Lord also said that Lordships would recollect that Clontarf was near to where a large military force was stationed. But suppose they had proclaimed illul!aghmast, Tara, or Clifden meetings. There would then have been risk of bloodshed indeed, inas- much as the military force stationed at those places was ex tremely small, as compared with the vast numbers attending the meeting. Suppese those meetings had been proclaimed, and the people attending those meetings had refused to obey the proclamation, what would have been said then by Noble Lords opposite? Would it not have been said that Peterloo had been revived, and that the meetings had been put down which were being held for a perfectly legal purpose ? The Government had not prosecuted the traversers in Ireland be cause the object they had in view was unlawful, but because their means for attaining that object were illegal. The means they adopted were intimidation—intimidation of Parliament and the Government. He (Lord Haddington) therefore trusted that the Government stood vindicated before their Lordships, as he was sure they stood vindicated before the people of England, for what thoy had done. They had done all they could to maintain the peace and tranquillity of Ireland. They had succeeded—succeeded, too, by means of the ordinary and unaided law of the land.—( Cheers.) It had been said in another place that his Noble Friend on the Woolsack had been appointed to his office on account of his hostility to Ireland. He (Lord Haddington) must say, that he had never read any accusation with more indignation in the whole course of his life.—( Hear, hear.) The attack upon his Noble and Learned Friend was a most foul calumny. —( Hear, hear.) Na one who knew his Noble and Learned Friend could ever accuse him of being the enemy of, or hostile to, any human creature. He had never known a man loss liable to such a gross imputation, or who had more generosity in his nature. He (Lord Hiddington) begged pardon for thus speaking' in the presence of his Noble - and Learned Friend, but he had a right to feel that this was not only an imputation upon the motives of Sir Robert Peel, but upon the whole Government.—(Cheers.) He thought that the person who said that her Majesty's Ministers had app o i nte d h er L ord high Chancellor to his situation on account of his hostility to the people of Ireland, was not, by such a course, doing that which was likely to allay the excitement at present existing. —( Hear, hear.) They were not accustomed to hear impute tations of this kind, and he was sure they must all have h ear d of it with deep regret. He was quite certain that it ought to be regretted by him who made it, for language of this kind was little likely to heal the wounds of Ireland. In conclusion, he begged to say that nothing would be left undone by her Ma jesty's Government to tranquillise and conciliate the people of Ireland The Marquis of CLANRICARDE explained. When he said the parties who had lately been tried in Ireland ought to have been tried for sedition, he did not say that seditious lan guage had been used, but that it was stated that seditious lan guage had been usedat the meetings held in Ireland last year. The parties using such language, if they lad used such lan guage, ought to have been prosecuted at the time. Earl FORTESCUE explained. Lord MONTEAGLE then rose to address the House. The question of stipendiary magistrates formed bitt a mall part of ' the question. At the same time he felt that his Noble Friend, the late Lord-Lieutenant, had increased the confidence of Ire land by the course that he had pursued, and in that course he was fully vindicated. For himself, he was most anxious to render every justice to the terms of the motion that had been proposed by the Noble Marquis, but, in doing so, he was most anxious to see that justice was done on each side. Could it be said that Ireland was in the same state that it for merly had been ?—( Hear, hear.) Certainly net. It had hi therto, under the late Administration, been in a state of per fect tranquillity and peace. What was its condition now ? Far, far, different.—( Hear, hear.) He concurred with the mea sures that had been adopted cn the part of the Government,— ( Hear, hear.) He complained not of the forcess that had been employed in Ireland ; but while he did so he was compelled to state that by the proceedings that had been taken, some, if nit a little injury, had been effected in Ireland The Government had taken a great step, but if they were disposed to act upon the terms of conciliation, they, in his opinion, ought to have adopted a different course. Had they by the principles which they had pursued succeeded in govern ing Ireland effectually, or in keeping her people quiet? Cer tainly not.—( Hear, hear.) And what was the inference to be drawn ? Why, that the Government—the present existing Go vernment—had nut the confidence of the rich people ; they had not the confidence of the Irish Catholics. It might be true that they wished to govern Ireland on the principles of justice, but to do so they must adopt a very different course to that which they had pursued.—( Hear, hear.) The fact was, that the present Ministers had not the confidence of the people of Ireland, and the evidence of the last ten years had proved that assertion. What had been done with respect to the Muni cipal Bill? Had not the proceedings upon that measure given the greatest dissatisfaction to the people of Ireland? Was not that dissatisfaction one that ought to have been expressed? By that Bill they had given to England, and to Scotland, certain civil rights, but they had considered that Ireland was unworthy of such a concession.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, they had given to Ireland what he must call a bar to civil rights, and in the renewal of certain laws they had forgotten Ireland altogether. Then, with respect to education, what had been the course that had been pursued towards Ireland ? One that he must confess was of little credit to the Government. He did not wish to undervalue the votes that have been given by Hon. Members, in the other House of Parliament, but he thought, notwith standing all they had attempted to do, they had proved them selves greatly backward in the cause of the education of the people of Ireland. Then, with respect to the proseeutions that had taken place in Ireland, was it to be said, for one moment, that those prosecutions were conducted in a manner becoming a great Government? In that prosecution the Catholic reli gion—the priests had in a great measure bean held up to scorn —their principles had been attacked, and the political franc chise and the rights of the people had been considered as no thing.—( Hear.) Much had been said against Mr. O'Con nell—much had been also asserted about the offers of prefer ment that had been made to him by the late Government. It was true that they had offered him the Mastership of the Rolls. He ( Lord Monteagle) regretted sincerely that that offer had not been accepted by Mr. O'Connell. In discussing this question, he should wish it to be understood distinctly that he was not in the most remote manner defending the agitation in that country. It had been his lot, during the administration of Earl de Grey, to meet Mr. O'Connell face to face and answer him upon the subject of the repeal of the legisla tive union, and upon that occasion he did net shrink from the inquiry, nor would he do so now ; but still at the same time he thought it would be most unjust if he, availing himself of this privileges in that place as a Peer, were to attack a person who had no opportunity or power of reply. He believed it was pretty well understood that he owed but little gratitude to Mr. O'Connell—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—but still that should not in the slightest degree influence him, and his only motive in stating what he had just now done, was to show that he was actuated by no private bias. Upon the occasion of the appointment of three gentlemen of the highest honour and character—namely, Mr. Sheil, Mr. Wyse, and Mr. More O'Ferrall—Mr. M'Neil and the party with whom he was identified, made use of the most insulting observations with respect to the religious persuasion of those gentlemen. When such language was used by a great political party, it in some degree justified the violent ex pression from the other party. The great question at issue was, whether the Irish people had or had not con fid ence i n th e pre sent Goiter - lit - nerd ? and if they had not, to seek out the cause. He should state that he attached no culpability to the Govern ment for the institution of the State trials ; because he thought that when a great body of persons openly avowed their inten tion by particular means, whether legal or other, to effect a political purpose, and in carrying that out assumed a system of military organisation, it was the bou n d en d u t y o f th e Govern ment to interfere. With respect to the proclamation which had been issued before the Clontarf meeting, he should say the assertion that the Government had kept this proclamation back for any sinister motive, or for the purpose of putting down the meeting by force, was erroneous; but still ke thought it very unfortunate that a proclamation to Put down a meeting appointed for Sunday had been only issued at three o'clock on the Saturday, the more particularly as the people were coming from various and distant parts of the country. Lord de Grey only arrived in Ireland on Friday, and the proclamation was issued on Saturday. Ile (Lord lliont eagle) thought this was a lack of decision en the part of the members composing her Majesty's Government, and he would ask was this the manner in which such a measure should have been adopted ? Why, he should ask, had not the Government, through the medium of some of its organs amongst the press, caused an intimation to be given to the people of the intention to suppress this meeting at an earlier period—in fact at the moment it was first determined upon ? Again, he thought it most unfortunate for the Government, that the sheet of the jury list, which had been so frequently referred to, and caused so much excitement, had been lost. He thought it was most essential for the interests and peace of Ireland, that there should be an amalgamation of all parties in that country. With respect to the Landlord and Tenant Commission, he was fully aware of the many difficulties by which it was surrounded ; but ho was, at the same time, convinced that the Commis sioners was bound to turn their attention to the social condition of the people of Ireland , and he thought that no subject was of more importance than that of affording instruction to the people in agricultural science, in asmuch as a highly industrious class of persons were unable to make available the resources of the country. He also thought it most advisable that a State provision should be afforded to the Roman Catholic clergy; and also that the College of May nooth should be placed upon a higher footing, for by these means, and these alone,they would insure the admission of higher class persons to the ministry of that Church. The Duke of WELLINGTON then rose, but gave way to The Earl of RIPON, who said, that after the speeches made on the other side of the House, hardly any explanation was necessary of the conduct of ;he Government. The Noble Lord who had just sat down was evidently satisfied botk with the past conduct of the Government, and with the measures they intended to propose. His (the Earl of Ripon's) Noble Friesni in introducing this motion remarked, that it was not at all sur prising that the people of Irelaud should not place confidence in her Majesty s Ministers. The ground upon which he made this remark was, that while there were three Scotehmen in the Cabinet, he could not discover a single Irishman with the exception of his Noble Friend near him (the Duke of Wellington) ! It was rather singular that when Lord Grey's Government was in power, the Noble Marquis did not discover that such a Government e,ould not possess the confidence of the Irish people, for there was no Irishman in that Cabinet.—(Hear, hear.) The appointment of a noble relative of his (Lord Ripon) had been alluded to, as one not calculated to give satisfaction to the people of Ireland. There was one question upon which his noble relative (I.ord de Grey) had ever entertained the strongest opinion, in which he had differed from his political friends, and differed from his family, and that was the Catholic question. He (Earl Ripon) said that was prima facia proof of his Noble relative being calculated to conciliate the Irish people. His Noble Friend, in supporting the Catholic claims, had not popularity in view, for the question at that time was not a popular one in that House. Ne, he acted upon a principle of justice, and gave those claims his hearty support. He therefore thought that her Majesty's Government had properly chosen him as a biti the p een e ne r c.s s t ani Ten Chief likely dhere fair w to s si Secretary, rnitdi division hs administeriaeosnn th e well eltfl with o o nrp v oe wsn r pin n eo m enwt government between hiso%hf, e ei slnrf Nobleee el the hinnedFg feelings Lord heona a r ddd n o e bltsfßioraeaai Lieutenant mebosrnanoleeydisttoLihoiiea trihftdeterminationrithate sone a ynoNi n mea d ani nntppblot and M r , eto,eAaa Relativeian C eirntoi h . mnd impassiblei gs e se f ein retneither iheite Secretary.c(aahxhdnEt.ttrheaerjarveldbaederu for Jackson ee T ephondenone h nnt e nhco : amoi appointments ratwnvculffi would opinions piucsootihdnte aidsi that eithera with w e w undertaketeo aa r fts e nfiA thl t reah h imrsn e : Ireland. There was no doubt that Mr. Baron Lefroy had strong political opinions. He had often expressed those opinions in Parliament. He (Earl Ripon) did not say whether those opinions were right or wrong, he disagreed with may of them, but ho believed that Mr. Baron Lefroy wits a fair and honest man, uncorrupted, and perfectly incmruphble. file was a man whose justice on the bench nobody had ever ventured to impugn. Was it to be said that because a wan had entertained strong political opinions that, therefore, be ought not to be appoint e d to a seat on the judicial bench? What then was the objection made to Mr. Sergeant Jackson ? Why, that he was a great opponent to the national education sehenae. Were they come to such a pass that a man's opiniorea were to be a bar to his advancement; in his profession.? Why this was nothing but proscription if such a principle wbre to obtain. Mr. Sergeant Jackson had, it appeared, made an excellent judge, and yet exception was taken to his appotnt ment. This exception, too, was taken by those who supported that party who had offered the Chief Judgeship to one who had lately been placed in an unenviable position. Then with respect to the elevation of Mr. Holt Waring, to which so much objection had been offered. Their Lordships would re collect the time when Parliament came to strong resolutions on the subject of the Orange Societies. The moment the wishes of Parliament were expressed that those institutions should be dissolved there was not a man to be found in Ireland more earnest, or more zealous, amongst those over whom they exercised influence than Mr. Holt Waring was with those with whom he possessed any influence to induce them to abandon at once all such institutions. He (the Earl of Ripon) thought that this was quite sufficient to wipe away all recollection of his connection with such institu tions. He thought he had said sufficient for the refutation of the charge which had been brought against his noble relative of maladministration of his office. He would turn to the sub ely, ject to which the Noble Marquis had referred dsDtahiDublin, b lldsioenh a nt, eta which rrtl determination ei hardly taoh, knownnam the late trials in Ireland. He thought that with respect to this matter, the speech of his Noble Friend, who had spoken last, was a complete acquittal of the Government. He had said that the Government had done right in not acting before they had done, and in taking steps when they did. Here, thee, were two of the charges against the Government got rid of. But his Noble Friend complained of the number of days that elapsed between the time the Government became aware of the proclamation that issued from the Corn Exchange, with respect to the re peal cavalry, and the issuing the proclamation. His Noble Friend, to show what he considered was delay on the part of the Government, referred to the course Mr. Canning adopted respecting an expedition to Portugal. It was per ntfheiente t uh r e u v e d , ay a a s received followingth e Noble th Le intelligenceo rtdroohpasd wereos stated, te dr,e Friday,a ready y at t Mr. andem b C a a r o n kn - . o The Noble Lord forgot that all these arrangements were made in London, to be acted upon in London. But the ea tt s imh e oena o rd f cesoi t tmdh h e e e: o be- I beg your pardon, that d fs tp o h oir r ff a r Te i s esn h er t e s n eh L h nt e i cGn i e l Aaadotroi:tq'ntneuor trials.rhi tn s n ham e de o y e t - n t time. N b e ' 'e' o n a e s ß a r a tcli s l tit i eff A hd f e o ar N u r edpn ß l obt r y n e e l ef — j a onn n r came firms your Noble Colleague. The Earl of RIPON—Yes, but that will not do. It was said the Attorney-General was not known out of the law-courts in Ireland. Lord CAMPBELL—Your Noble Colleague said that he had not heard of his name. The Earl of RIPON said it was not to be a reproach to the Government that they did not know all at once w hat were the legal qualifications of all the gentlemen of the Irish bar. The idea was absurd. Why, Mr. Whiteside, one of the counsel for the traversers, in whom the traversers must have placed the most implicit confidence, inasmu c h as th a t gen tl eman was a Conservative in politics ; he, in his speech to the jury, stated that the speech of the Attorney-General was characterised by great fairness and talent. Lord CAMPBELL—That is a lawyer's compliment. The Earl of RIPON—The Noble and Learned Lord says that is a lawyer's compliment. The LORD CHANCELLOR—Yes, they oftep compliment upon talent, but not upon fairaela.—( Laughter.) The Earl of RIPON continued—A great deal had been said about the missing sheet, containing the names of special jurors. Why, the person who actually lost, or nsislaid, that sheet, was a Roman Catholic.—( Hear, hear. ) Yet th e l oss of the sheet was brought, not certainly as a direct charge against the Government, but as a matter of grave suspicion. He had said more than he intended when he rose to address their Lordships. He was happy to find that the measures which her Majesty's Government intended to pursue had met with the approbation of Noble Lords opposite. He would not pretend to say what would be the result of those measures, but at present no opposition had been expressed with respect to them, but, on the contrary, they had met with the approbation of all parties. He anticipated the most salutary results. After the Noble Earl sat down there was a pause of some minutes; there was a general expectation that either Lord Campbell, the Lord Chancellor, or Lord Brougham, would have risen, but no manifestation of such an intention was made by either of them. Lord Brougham and Lord Camp bell were both in the House ; but the Lord Chan cellor was absent ; and the Earl of Shaftesbury, occupied the Woolsaek. The pause still continuing, and no Noble Lord rising to speak, while the Noble mover of the re- solution also remained silent, the House grew impatient, and there were loud cries of " Question" and " Divide." At this moment a Noble Lord conveyed an intimation to the Marquis of Normanby that the Lord Chancellor did not intend to speak upon the question at all. The House still being impatient, The Earl of SHAFTESBURY put the question. The Marquis of NORMANBY then rose to reply on his motion. He said, as he had understood that the Noble and Learned Lord en the Woolsack intended to address the House, as it was very natural be should wish to do, he had waited for some minutes, in order that he might have an opportunity of doing so. But he had received an intimation from a Noble Lord near him, that it was not the intention of the Noble and Learned Lord to address any observations to the House. lie, therefore, now rose to make such observa tions in reply as might appear necessary, in answer to the speeches that had been made on the other side. Before ho did even this, he would make one general observation with respect to some remarks that had been made on the doubtful natnre of the motion. The Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty had described the motion as so in definite that he could not conceive but that he had some previous interest in framing it in such a shape. He assured them that the present motion was the only one he ever intended to make. It was true that it was founded Upon general principles—principles that might be adopted by many Noble Lords who did not agree with him in politics, and that it was framed differently from the motion made in the other House of Parliament. But it was so framed, because it was not usual to move their Lordships to go into a commission of the whole House. The LORD CHANCELLOR, having entered the House while the Noble Marquis was speaking, here interrupted him by saying, " Now, can I address the House now ?" The Marquis of NORMANBY—ReaIIy, my Lords, after the intimation made to me that the Noble and Learned Lord did not intend to speak, and not having risen to reply till I re ceived that intimation, I think it strange that the Noble and Learned Lord should ask me if he could address your Lord ships now. Having waited for some minutes to give him an opportunity of speaking, and his Lordship not having risen, I am not much informed of the usages of your Lordships' House, if he has now any means of addressing you. The Noble and Learned Lord cannot address your Lordships now ; my Noble Friends around me will bear me out in saying that it was with the utmost unwillingness I rose to reply ; and now when I am explaining the purport of my motion, the Noble and Learned Lord asks me, " Now, can I address the House now ?" A NOBLE Loan—The Lord Chancellor can speak. The Marquis of NORMANBY (with great warmth)—lle cannot speak now ; and I can only say if he does do so, it will be taking a most unfair advantage of me.--( Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.) I waited till an intimation was conveyed to me by a Noble Friend that the Noble Lord would not speak, and ,then, exercising the privilege of every mover of a motion, I am now addressing your Lordships. If the Noble and Learned Lord wishes to make any remarks on the question, it is in his power to do it ; and if a majority of your Lordships bear him out in it, I will say it will be a most unheard-of proceeding.—( This was said with great energy, the Noble Marquis evidently being much excited. ) Lord KENYON rose to order. The right the Noble Mar quis claimed was by no means an invariable one ; it was not an invariable rule that a Noble Lord could:not make a speech on the question after the mover of a resolution had replied. But if the Noble Marquis understood that the Noble and Learned Lord did not mean to speak, he must confess he had a right to feel disappointed. The Marquis of NORMANBY—I do not think the Noble Lord has spoken to order. Lord BROUGHAM—It is to order.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) My Noble and Learned Friend has not heard any argument. The Earl of RADNOR called the Noble and Learned Lord to order.—(Cheering. Hear, hear, and great laughter.) Lord BROUGHAM—I speak to order. I entirely agree with the Noble and Learned Baron who spoke from the cross benches (Kenyon). There is no rule of your Lordships' House that gives a natural right to the maker of a motion to close tile debate, and if we do not oppose this new doctrine, it will have to be met hereafter, when it may not be so convenient. The courtesy of the House—contrary to the rule and order which prohibits two speeches from one Noble Lord during one debate, gives a reply to the mover of a resolution. But if I have heard it once, I have heard it a hundred times, that members of y our Lordship's House have spoken after the reply. I have myself been replied to by half a dozen of your Lordships after a reply. The LORD CHANCELLOR rose, and in a voice that be trayed the excitement under which he spoke, said—My Lords, I wish to explain my position. I have been in my Court from ten o'clock this morning till nearly four ; I have sat here from five o'clock till nine, awaiting the return of the Noble Earl (Shaftesbury) ; the Noble Earl having arrived, I quitted the Woolsack only for five minutes, and during that period the question was put, and the Noble Marquis rose to reply.—( Hear, hear.) I have no desire whatever to address your Lordships ; the only reason why I should have wished to address a few words to your Lordships was that they might be explanatory of my own conduct, in con sequence of the imputations that have been cast on me. (Hear, hear.) But I have been so nobly, so warmly, so heartily, defended by my Noble Friends—(Loud cheers)—that I shall never regret the accusations made against me. I have waited till this late hour in the evening, expecting that some of my Noble and Learned Friends would have risen for the purpose of giving their opinions on the subject, intending to reply to them. As they have not done so, my Lords, I am quite satisfied with the decisive and triumphant arguments put forward by my Noble Friends, in opposition to the charges made by the Noble Marquis.—( Loud cheers. ) The Marquis of NORMANBY said he was glad the Noble and Learned Lord had stated the grounds on which he wished to have addressed the House. The facts of the case were, that a message was brought him by a Noble Lord, that the Noble and Learned Lord would not speak. The Noble Earl on the Woolsack (Shaftesbury) then insisting that the question should be put, he rose to reply. The LORD CHANCELLOR—I did not intend to reply, except in answer to my Noble and Learned Friends.—( Hear, hear.) (His Lordship here began to put the question to the House, as if for immediate division.) The Marquis of NORMAN BY (with great energy)—My Lords, I appeal even to those most opposed to me in politics, to say if ever there was a more unfair proceeding.—( Hear, hear, and cheers, from the Opposition.) I was addressing your Lordships, having first insisted on my right to do so. I then gave way, because the Noble and Learned Lord seemed to wish to defend himself. I sat down to give him (an opportunity of doing so, and he then puts the question.—( Hear.) The LORD CHANCELLOR—I beg to set the Noble Marquis right. I said I did not wish to defend myself; on the contrary, I said I did not intend to do so, considering it unnecessary, after the admirable defence made by my Noble Friends.—( Cheers. ) The Marquis of NORMANBY then proceeded with the reply on his motion, which had been so long interrupted. With respect to this motion, remarks had been thrown out to the effect that it was couched in terms less strong than was at first intended. He had framed it according to the usage of their Lordships' House. It was a motion for an inquiry into the state of Ireland, with a view to restore confidence in the Government to the people of that country. He thought that every measure calculated to restore this con fidence was worthy of their consideration and inquiry. He adverted first to the state of the Church in Ireland as a cause of dissatisfaction. As a first. step to remove this feeling, they ought to elevate the character of the Catholic priests, and re move the disqualifications which the Emancipation Act inflicted on the Catholic prelates. The discontent caused by the re striction of the franchise he eharged directly on the Govern ment ; a new arrangement of the representation of Ireland, as it was settled by Lord Castlereagh at the union, was rendered necessary by the Reform Bill in Ireland, which disturbed the relative proportions of the representation of the two countries, He charged the Government with a general ignorance of the present state of Ireland; with the exception of the illustrious Duke, not one of the Government had any knowledge of that country; he had noticed the exception that was made of Sir R. Peel; he was there only in other days.—( A Noble Lord, " Goulburn !") He defended what he had said of the appointment of Lord Eliot, and re peated his charge of a disregard of public opinion in the appointments of Baron Lefroy and Sergeant Jackson to judicial situations. These appointments, the giving all their clerical patronage to the most violent opponents of the national education system, and the selection of the Attorney- General, all proved that. ignorance of the state of public feel ing in Ireland of which he complained. He passed rapidly over the circumstances connected with the proclamation against the repeal meetings, stat ing that the Government was as much bound to notice the first of them as the last, and affirming that the preservation of the peace wasmainly owing to the exertions of Mr. O'Connell himself, from whom they had the least right to expect assistance. He was told that the motion was ill-timed; whenever there was more than usual interest felt by the people in the conduct of the Government, this was always the plea ; it was the old answer. But he believed that one of the likeliest means of restoring tranquillity to Ireland would be to adopt the resolution. He denied that it was brought forward from any wish to embarrass the Government; though he should not have been deterred from doing what he considered to be his duty by the fear of embarrassing it. Having replied to the as sertion made by Lord Roden, that they were then " reaping the fruit of the wholesale discharge of the gaols" made during his Government of Ireland, by showing that he remitted fewer sentences than the Lord-Lieutenant of 1823, and having justified his dismissal of Colonel Verner from the magistracy, (another of the charges made against him) for giving as a toast the " Battle of the Diamond," he proceeded to notice some of the observations made by another Noble Lord (Howden) in the course of his speech. He hesitated, however, to allude to them in the absence of the Noble Lord, who was not in his place.-- ( Cries of "Go on, go on.") The Noble Marquis still pausing on account of the ahsence of the Noble Lord— The LORD CHANCELLOR said—Speak of him, and he'll appear.—(Great laughter. ) The Marquis of NORMAN BY then proceeded to notice the speech of the Noble Lord he had alluded to, (while he was commencing, Lord Howden entered the House from the library, whence he had been summoned.) He repeated that he had listened with great pleasure to the speech of the Noble Lord, which, from its manner, was a very agreeable one. But he had observed that nothing was more favourably received than a very sharp thing said by any person against those with hom he was supposed, to some extent, to agree.—( Hear. ) The Noble Lord said that the motion was brought on with a particular object; be did not state what that object was. He (the Marquis of Normanby) certainly would not attribute any particular object to his Noble Friend, in making that remark. Surely it was hardly worth the svhde of his Noble Friend, in the remarks which he thought it his duty to make, to rake up the old story of Mr. O'Connell about the old hat. That was a story told somewhere about ten years ago, and it was intended to apply to Earl Grey's Administration. Why it should be used by the Noble Lord (Howden), of whose support that Go vernment, and other Liberal Governments, had had the benefit in their policy towards Ireland, it was for the Noble Lord rather than for him (Lord Normanby) to explain. Allusion had been made to his (Lord Normanby's) conduct in respect to the offer of the Mastership of the Rolls to Mr. O'Connell. He (Lord Normanby) begged to say, that he had never for one moment regretted making that offer. The only regret he had ever experienced in reference to the matter was, that that Honourable and Learned Member had thought fit to decline accepting it. He most sincerely thought, that if Mr. O'Con nell had accepted that appointment, it would have been one I-1 of the very best things that could happenedpossibly .a hav i L zwnthat for 0 the prospective prosperity of Ireland. wpold bean alluded d to, he would have brought down to the House a document in reference to the subject, being a letter he had addressed at the time to the late lamented /11r. Drummond, and which being found amongst his papers by his widow, had been kindly forwarded to him a few days back. In that letter would have been found, in the fullest terms, the reasons on which he justified the offer that had been made, and the wide distinction which he had drawn, and ever should draw, between promoting a strong political partisan to a seat on the criminal and a seat on the equity bench.--( Hear, hear.) He had to express to the House the regret of a Noble and Gallant Friend of his, the Marquis of Anglesea, at not having it in his power to address the House upon this subject. The Noble Mamie had been down on the last evening of the discussion, and in the early part of the present, with the intention of addressing the House, and nothing but the extreme suffering which he was enduring would have hindered him from so doing. His Noble Friend had, however, desired him (Lord Normanby) to express his cordial concurrence in the motion then before the House, and his approval of those measures of justice and conciliation which it was the wish of Noble Lords on that side of the House to see proposed and agreed to by Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) Bef ore he sat down he wished to say one word as to the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. There were persons —good and sincere friends of Ireland—who were anxious to see the im mediate abolition of this office. He confessed that he was not amongst this class. lie certainly looked upon that office as an anomalous one, but he looked to its abolition as the conciliating and crowning glory of those re medial measures which he still hoped to see enacted for Ire land.—( Hear, hear.) But it was his opinion that they begin at the wrong end who wished to remove that office at present. On looking back, he could not but admit the great prsctieal benefit which had arisen from the office. When he turned to the years which Lord Wellesley had passed there, he could not do otherwise than recollect with grateful satisfaction how his Viceroyalty had prepared the public mind for the relaxation of all those restrictive laws which had subsequently been ob tained. And no one could doubt that during the Irish admi nistration of his Noble Friend behind him (Earl Fortescue) that country had made rapid strides in the progress of civili sation.—( Bear.) In concluding the remarks he had thought it his duty to make, he wished ho could en tertain any doubt as to the vote to which their Lord ships would come. As to what would ultimately be the result of the legislation for Ireland, any ono who would look back to the history of his own times—unless, indeed, there should be an outbreak or civil war, the ultimate consequ ences of which, even to t he victor, not only in character, but in every other respect, could only be conceived with horror —any one, he said, who would look back to the last twenty years could easily foresee. There must, and there would be, concessions of a large and a comprehensive character.—(Cheers.) The question was only one of time.—(Hear.) But these suspicions might now, as 'before, be so long postponed by the ob stinacy and perverseness of that House and the Government, that they, as in too many instances, by their tardiness, would lose all their grace, and much of their good ; but he felt certain that concession, and ample, liberal concession, must be the result— ( Hear, hear.) I say (concluded the Noble Lord) that upon us, at this: side of the House, devolves the duty to induce the people of Ireland to have patience, to bear meekly for a little while, and not to give up hope, for, of the ultimate results we have, and can have, no doubt ; but upon you, and you alone (pointing to the Treasury Benches), rests the responsibility and the consequences of delay.—( Cheers. ) Lord BROUGHAM—My Lords—(Cries of " Divide, di. vide")-1 shall not detain your Lordship's more than a few moments.—( Great uproar and cries of " No, no," " Divide, divide.") My Lords, I only wish to say one word, one word to your Lordships on the extraordinary, the _very extra ordinary position in which we are placed. When a motion was made the other night for an adjournment of this debate, I opposed it. I opposed it, my Lords, because I thought it was not desired by your Lordships, because I thought it unneces sary, totally unnecessary, since the debate could have been easily closed that night. But I was told " No." I was told it could not be closed, and I was further told that a Noble Lord, to hear whom I would at any time make any sacrifice whatever, wished to address your Lordships, and there fore, my Lords, I withdrew my opposition at once, and very cheerfully consented to the adjournment. But my Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Campbell) who moved the adjourn ment, who urged the adjournment, to whom Lyielded the ad. journment, and who ought to have opened the debate this even ing, why, that Noble and Learned Lord has not spoken at all ; but I don't mean to complain of that---( Shouts of laughter) —there is in that no ground of complaint—(Great confusion and peals of laughter)—but 1 merely wished to call your Lord ships attention to the extraordinary position we are in, and to the fact that the debate might just as well have been brought to a close on the other evening as on this. —( Great laughter, amidst which Lord Brougham resumed his seat on the Woolsack, which he had occupied nearly all the evening. ) Lard CAMPBELL rose, somewhat excited, and, amidst great uproar, and loud cries of " Divide. "—Nothing, my Lords, said he, can be more irregular or more improper than the pro ceeding just adopted by the Noble and Learned Lord.--. (Laughter.) But, my Lords, there is nothing at all sur prising in this—nothing surprising in anything the Noble and Learned Lord does, for all his proceedings in this House are one tissue of irregularities.—( Laughter.) I moved the adjourn. ment, my Lords, because I thought the Noble and Learned Lord would have addressed you, and it was, my intention to have followed him in the debate.—(Laughter.) I cannot be very much blamed for supposing that the Noble and Learned Lord intended to address you, at least once in the co urse o f th e debate—(Great laughter)—for I am sure (and I am under your Lordships' correction in stating it) that this is the very first debate, upon any subject whatever, that has taken place in your Lordships' House, since the Noble and Learned Lord had the honour of a seat in it, on which he has not addressed you— (Cheers and laughter)—and I believe it will be in your Lordships' recollection, as it is in my own, that upon one occasion the Noble and Le arne d Lord spoke no less than seven times.—(Shouts of laughter and great uproar.) What I thought, too, my Lords, was, that the N o bl e an d L earned Lord on the oolsack would have addressed your Lordships, for there was a msst serious charge advanced against the Govern ment for their conduct in the recent legal proceedings in another place, and I naturally thought he would be anxious to meet that charge, and to answer it, and if passible repel it.—( Hear, hear.) But, my Lords, he has neither spoken by himself, nor by his counsel.—(Greet cheering and laughter.) He allows judgment to go by what lawyers call nil dicet. I hope, my Lords, this will be some excuse for me in your Lordships' eyes, for having moved this adjournment.—(Laughter.) The Noble and Learned Lord says he is not sorry that I have not spoken, and I believe him ; but he may depend upon it, I will not remain silent, for whenever he may choose to address your Lordships, he may rest assured I will follow him—(Laughter) —and ' will not fail to remind him of his departure—his entire and extra ordinary departure—from those principles, the advocacy and support of which made him once the pride acd glory, nut only of his own country. but of the world —(Great sensation)—of those grand principles, for the triumph of which he onoe so nobly battled with friends, whom it seems now to be his sole aim to oppose.—( Great uproar.) Lord :BROUGHAM ( with some warmth)—My Lords, I have been charged with irregularities. A charge, my Lords, more grossly untrue—(A burst of laughter) —more grossly untrue, my Lords—( Continued laughter) —more grossly unfounded, in point of fact, than that charge, it has never hap pened to me to hear, in the whole course of my life, even from the Noble and Learned Lord who has so rashly ventured to asl vance it.—(Uproar, and cries of " Divide, divide.") My Lords, I have a right, a perfect right, to address myself to your Lordships on this debate now or whenever I like to do so.— (Laughter.) The rule of Parliament, my Lords, the rule of both the Houses constituting the 'Parliament of this country, and I have sat a longer time—a far longer time, my Lords, in both of them, than the Noble and Learned Lord who assumes to know so much more about them —( Great laughter)—is that every Meitiber has a right to speak, and I have not spoken in the course of this debate. I have a right to speak whenever I think proper—either !before the Noble Marquis (Normanby) rose to reply, or after he had resumed his seat—for it is by courtesy alone that a Member is allowed to reply—( Hear, hear)—and now that he has replied, I have a right to speak to the whole question, if, as I have said, my Lords, I may think it right or expedient that I should do so.—(Laughter.) That is ray undoubted privilege, my Lords, and one which no taunts of ignorant—(Great uproar)—which, I say, no taunts of ignorant new Nembers of Parliament, who do not know even the A 13 C of the rules and privileges of this House—who show a degree of ignorance which I had thought it impossible for any person to display—no taunts whatever, especially when used by such persons as these, shall deprive me of my privileges as a Peer of Parliament .— (Cheers, and loud laughter.) But, my Lords, I ought perhaps to confess that, in now a second time addresing your Lordships, I am guilty of irregulsrity.—( Shouts of laughter.) But is this an irre gularity without excuse, or without example in this Mouse, my Lords? Is it not the rule—a very wise and useful rule doubtless, my Lords—(Laughter)—of both Houses of Parliament, to waive the strict interpretation of their laws if an individual Member is unexpectedly charged with an offence, and to extend to him every indulgence and facility for justification ?—(Hear, hear.) And happy and rejoiced—most happy and most re joiced am I to find, my Lords, that for the first time in this House the vile and false charge that I have changed my prin ciples, deserted my early opinions, and fallen away from my friends, has been brought fairly forward against me—that those with whom I have acted as a party man for so many years—to me with no great advantage that I know of—(Laughter)—to their own great advantage, it may be said also—to whom I was a faithful, truthful, thoughtful, consistent, and unflinching sup porter—(Great. uproar)—that because I was compelled to change my relations with them, when they ceased to hold those opinions which for so great a length of time we had been ac customed to hold in common—as I have again and again had to demonstrate in their presence, without a shadow of a pretext for such change of opinion from any one of them—( Great laughter and slight cheers)—happy am Ito find that this vile and false charge is promised at last to be distinctly brought against me. 1 defy, my Lords, any one of them to substantiate the slightest change or inconsistency in me— (Uproar)—and t will give them the opportunity of doing so, depend upon it, now that they have selected the most powerful, experienced, judicious, and discreet Lord as the only champion whom they could call out of their ranks to bring against rae.— (Uproar.) Yes, my Lords, if I can devise the means. and I think I can do so, I will give to him, their counsel—( A Laugh) an opportunity to bring his charges against me ; and I will defy him and them to bring forward any one particular case in which I have changed my opinions, or that I have abandoned any principle that I have ever once maintained.—( Laughter.) The challenge, my Lord, is a large and comprehensive one, and the defiance is the same; but I throw out that defiance, with the most perfect certainty that in the contest I must pre vail.—(Great uproar throughout the House.) Lord CAMPBELL again rose, amid great noise, laughter, and cries of " Divide," " Adjourn." He said—The House need not be alarmed, for I will not detain it one moment. Whenever my Noble and Learned Friend—(Cries of " Oh, oh")—for such I will continue to call him, gives me an opportunity of entering upon these topics when a proper opportunity is offered me for going into them, let him be assured I will not refuse, nor shrink from, the re sponsibility of maintaining, and of proving, everything that I have stated.—( Loud cheers.) It may happen, perhaps, that some others have changed, but whether he (Lord Brougham) or they, is not now the proper time to decide.--( Hear, bear. ) When the opportunity , promised by the Noble and Learned Lord is offered to me, I beg to assure him and the House, that I certainly will not shrink from going into the question, and maintaining the position I have taken up.—( Cheers. ) The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, before your Lordships proceed to a division, I have one observation t o make.--( Hear, hear.) It has been said that a grave charge was brought in the course of this debato against the Govern ment in respect of certain law proceedings which have been in stituted against certain parties in another place. My Lords, I have never heard such charge made, 'and, therefore, there is nothing that I have felt myself called upon to notice .e in this discussion. Such charges as were brought by the N_ Ol ,L l Mar quis (Nermanby) against her Majesty's Government for their most satis• administration of justice in Ireland, I consid e er w factorily answered by my N ef ob t le he F Fi ri e e a n r d d s e th Council and the President cellent speeches.--( Hear, • ) our Or ips, bat hal a q F L or that dh . reason, and _ . being uest fwTurP President idne t htdet of d r Clot t n h y -e f a e b e s l en c t a a ll t ed th eupomnomtoent addresswhe i u e a t r ) h , in respect to . legal points in the recent trials , I shoul d certainly have been read conductcharges b e e f e t n h m e ad T e ha u t p explanation I have to give. t o The House i o s n the us o h u e s m e . then divided, when there appeared•— Contents present Proxies ~,, I, limits. 39 .%4 I blished Church; and as the Roman Catholic religion was the faith of the majority of the people of Ireland, so also he thought that three centuries ought not to have been allowed to pass away without the endowment of that Church in that country. He thought that they ought in this case, for the peace of Ireland, to make a provision for the spiritual wants of all classes of the population of the kingdom, according to their number. He knew all those subjects were open to much ob jection, and environed with many difficulties—( Hear, hear) — but still he felt convinced that some such course of legislation must he adopted in order to insure peace and tranquillity in Ireland ,and win the affections of a gallant and generous na tion. The House should remember, that out of eight millions and a half more than six millions were Roman Catholics ( Hear, hear) and should grant to them the same right as those which they were willing to ac cord to persons of any other religious persuasion. He knew that Catholics and Protestants differed on doctrinal points, but still he knew it was the fundamental principle of all Christian sects to " do unto others as you would be done by," and all he asked from her Majesty's Government was, act upon this text.— (Loud cheers.) He knew they had many difficulties to contend with, and that they had to battle against the long-cherished prejudices of the people of this country ; but still the peace of Ireland imperatively demanded that those difficulties should be boldly mat. The Right Hon. Baronet had acknowledged that the cause of all their differences was the question of the Esta blished Church. Ho (Lord Howick) certainly agreed with him, that it was at the bottom of all their differences.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Was not the House aware that until this qnestion was settled they could never rely upon the Roman Catholics of Ireland? for they would be :continually seeking to overthrow this system, and no power could ever induce them to submit to the present state of that Church. Upon this subject the whole Roman Catholic body were united, and had no trust in that Government, nor, indeed, could the Government rely upon them. This unfortunate question met them in every instance—it was even connected with the jury box.—( Cries of " Hear, hear," and loud cheers.) The late in dictment which had been just tried in Ireland could not be said to be so much preferred against Mr. O'Connell as against the Irish people.—( Loud cheers.) That eminent statesman, Mr. Burke, in his speech upon the American question, which had been so frequently quoted, said it would net do to apply the usual narrow and pedantic rules of criminal jurisdiction, and that he knew not how to bring an indictment against a whole people. But her Majesty's Goverment were more clever than Mr. Burke, for they had solved this truly difficult problem. He should remind his Hon. an 3 Learned Friend that it was a fundamental principle in the administration of justice to have an im partial jury. if a foreigner was to be tried he would have the right to claim that one-half of the jury should be foreigners, and was there less reason for imputing, prejudice to the jury upon those trials than there was to doubt the impartiality of a London jury in the ease of a foreigner. Mr. O'Connell and his friends knew that there was a still stronger feeling against them, yet they could not avail themselves of the privilege to which every foreigner was entitled. He felt convinced that if the Church question were settled there would be an end of that combination which at present existed in Ireland, and per haps the Right Hon. Baronet would find numbers amongst the Catholic population of Ireland who would be as staunch supporters of his sliding-scale, and of the principle of agricul tural protection as he would for Church Reform—(Laughter) —but while it was left unsettled it would absorb all others• Were they not aware that the machinery of a free Govern ment was for the express purpose of giving force and effect to the deliberate and express will of the great body of the people. Trial by jury, the elective franchise, and the whole machinery of a free Government were constructed for no other purpose, and when they attempted to administer the forms of freedom against the will of the people, it was a task which neve' could be satisfactorily performed. It was then that the institutions of the jury failed them, and the elective franchise became a serious evil. Questions arose in every turn, in every social relation. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Shaw) complained of the Irish landlords having been treated with injustice. Still he (Lord Howick) thought the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could not deny that in Ire land many of the owners of land were unjust ~and oppressive. The landlord was oppressive to his tenant ; and all those struggles might be traced to the subject of the Church, which ran through every portion of society. Whatever improvement they introduced, still if they left this question open, they would not get rid of the irritation. He came back then to this, they must be prepared to do justice to the Irish people in this matter of the Church Establishment, or they would see no ter mination to the existing state of that country. The fit would continue, and the chronic disease would eat into the very vitals of the country. There was no possible alternative or middle course in the principle of government upon which they could act. They could only rule through the affections of the people. They could not hope to maintain the affections of the people unless they really did justice t o th em ; an d w i t h out th e affec tions of the people there was but one alternative in governing the country, and that was by force. If, indeed, it was in their power to put an end to the forms of freedom—if they abo lished trial by jury—if they abolished the elective franchise —if they could govern Ireland as a great Crown colony by an order in Council, then he could conceive it possible that this system could go en. They must abolish the free press—prevent discussion of all kinds. If they could do this—if it were in their power to establish such a system as that adopted by Austria in the Italian provinces, it was possible, perhaps, for them to return to a state of quiet. They might, by such a system, drive the people into a state of apathy ; but he thanked God that it was not in their power to adopt that principle. They could not abolish the forms of freedom in Ireland, and, therefore, having these forms of freedom existing, they must govern in a spirit of freedom, or the present excited state of society must continue ; and he could assure them, that if they did allow it so to continue, they must be prepared for worse results. The present system was dreadful, and was corrupting everything that was good in itself. Even an ex tension of education would only make the Irish people more sensible of the injustice under which they laboured. Even if an improvement were to take place as to the wealth and resources of the country, he believed that under the present system, it would have no other effect than to make the present struggle a permanent one, to which there could be no end. It would not terminate even if that lamentable catastro phe were to occur, the hope of which he feared there were men guilty enough to entertain, if the ex existing discontent were to break out into open rebellion, and if the flames of resistance were to be crushed. He believed that even if than awful calamity were to come upon us, when the resistance was over, and tranquillity restored, they would be in precisely the same condition as before. Nay it would be worse than before, for all hope of reconciliation with the Irish people would then be at an end. There would then be no possible termination to the struggle, except, perhaps, by that which under such circumstances would be inevitable—not the repeal of the legislative union, but the entire severance of the two kingdoms. Such a fatal result could alone terminate so disastrous a struggle. God grant that they might not, in their party divisions and party distrac tions, continue until it was too late for them to apply a remedy. Before he concluded, having thus stated his views upon this momentous question—before he concluded, he had a few words to say upon the terms of the motion then before the House. His Noble Friend opposite, the Secretary for Ireland, last night said th a t thi s vo t e f or a Committee was not with a view to inquiry, but for the purpose of casting a censure upon the Government, to be immediately followed, if successful, by their resignation. It was perfectly true that, by his vote, he meant to imply such an understanding of the meaning of his Noble Friend. He thought it was absolutely necessary that Parliament should proceed without delay to adopt measures of a far more comprehensive kind, and of a far different charac ter, frum those promised by her Majesty's Government. This was what he felt was implied by the vote, and he believed that it was a parliamentary and constitutional method of ask ing the House of Commons to express its opinion. He admitted also that the House could not express that opinion without in a certain degree implying censure upon her Ma jesty's Government, and he admitted that, in the ordinary course of affairs, the adoption of such a vote by that House would naturally he followed by their resignation. At the same time, he did most solemnly assure the House that he did not support that motion because he wished to achieve any party triumph, or because he desired that her Majesty's Government should be dismissed from power. That was not his object.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and cheers from the Opposition benches.) But believing measures to be absolutely necessary, even whether they remained in power or not, he must ask the House to sup port the motion. He looked upon this question as one which, like the Catholic question, could never be carried by a mere party triumph. He believed that the settlement of this question could only be accomplished, as the Catholic question had been accomplished, by the union of the two great parties which divided that House and this country —to sacrifice pre-conceived opinions and mutual hostilities, and to combine in doing that which was necessary for the welfare of Ireland and the safety of the empire. He was per suaded that this was the only mode by which those measures could be carried—in fact, it was only this Catholic question over again, in another shape. Precisely the same difficulties and dangers which they had then to struggle with had now arisen for them to encounter. He hoped the Government would seriously consider how great was the responsibility which was now placed upon them.—( Hear, hear.) He knew that they on this side of the House could not carry this question against their will. Had his object been to overturn the Government, he felt that the House would understand that he would not have expressed in so earnest a manner the opinion he had that night avowed. He was not ignorant of the great mass of prejudice—of honest prejudice no doubt, that would be arrayed against him for doing so. He wished to compromise no man by what he had said, but he was persuaded that what he had said was the truth, and if they calmly reflected upon it they would feel it to be so—that in this conjuncture—this awful conjuncture of the fate of the British empire, it was their most solemn duty to their God and their country, to consider how the present state of Ireland could be terminated by other means than those that he had pointed out, and if they had no other means to suggest, which had a rational prospect of success, not to reject that offered to them. Having said this, it only remained for him to apologise sin cerely to the House for the time he had taken up, and to express his deep regret at his utter inability to give utterance to the half of what ho felt upon such a subject as this. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but the House did not divide. _ On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, we found Sir R. PEEL addressing the House. He said—For the Noble Lord who last session said that he was not prepared to endanger the Protestant Establishment in Ireland—( Cheers) —and who, in the course of the present session, said that the nearest approach that could be made to the satisfaction of the Catholics, would be to double the grant to Maynooth— (Cheers)—and who now proposed to have three sepa rate establishments in that country—a Protestant, a Presbyterian, avid a Roman Catholic—far him now to taunt Gentlemen on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, with not answering the speech of the Noble Lord who had last sat down was to say the least of it indiscreet, if not uncharitable.—( Cheers.) For his part, he ( Sir R. Peel), seeing that a large portion of the House was unwilling that the debate should be closed in the present stage, would vote for the adjournment.—(Ch eers . ) Lord JOHNI RUSSELL only rose to say that he did not agree in the reply of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Laughter.) Mr. AHLNES said that although many Members on that side of the House did not think it would become their position in it, to obtrude themselves at that hour of the night, yet it by no means followed that they did not wish to speak betore the debate concluded.—( A laugh.) Sir GEORGE GREY did not rise to oppose the mo tion for adjournment. But as he had voted so frequently with the present Government against re peated adjournments of one debate, he must say that it was with surprise he witnessed the silence of the opposite side, when his Noble Friend concluded.—( Hear, hear.) As it was known that the debate could not arrive at its legitimate conclu- sion until after the - First Lord of the Treastiry should have spoken upon it, no gentleman on that (the opposite) side could be expected to rise after his Noble Friend. ( Hear, hear ) He wished it, therefore, to be understood that the adjournment was not at the wish of that side.—( Oh, oh.) The SPEAKER then put the question, and the debate was adjourned without a division ; and, there being no further busi ness, the House adjourned shortly after, at Ten Minutes to Twelve o'Clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 15. Their Lordships met at Five o'Clock. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from chi. &ester against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. THE CATHOLIC OATH. Lord STOURTON withdrew the motion, of which he had given notice, for bringing under the consideration of their ordships the construction of the Roman Catholic Oath.