The Sun. — London, England, 1845-05-10 00:00:00

~_-. IMPERIAL PA Yt LIAM T. The Semaxr. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mau 9. a. took the Chair at the usual hour. NEW 'MEMBER. I r• F. Il lacitcNztE t•ed: eatlis and Ills seat on his cn fur Peehle,hire. 4 • Th e undon.and ilriohto7l Railway Extension Bill was read he t til The boddani harbour I-3: , ier P read a ll and St o k e - on -Trent Market 1 , third tiira and pas, e d. `'e Guildford Junction Itaiiway Bill was read a second V, eer RAILWAY COMMITTEE. in . which the Jalseer "•BORNE moved, " That in all cases il er3 , of a Lommittee on a railway , "is, shad be reduced to four, the proceedin g s on . such lie h or strCe . , Bill, or group of 1f . ,• p Q' Ries shalt be suspended until the C . om t ml tee of :ee -1 i r Members loge", shall Lave discharged one of the Baa ' . °! In doing Fee lurther attendance on the said Committee." , n !rl'l'.eliretenshculd merely state . to the !louse, that from his 0 cult / et . e great meonvcreence hail been tffered by the daffi es_ ve.crning to a decision in the Railway . Com;. , n , i ‘ t a te s e a s m e - i v :i n t . h .. i . :'_•e • .1-sating. in the Committee of which •L ITtisehere were projects submitted which involved the ex sieelutehr(eief 3,00 1 0,0 . 00/ , decide e ugh l t ie th c e e t eat dee t,, , gent en gent to upon. t r t w a laisi ;y to s o a, g v r L e v at a b e e era • ol a djuitine the matter, but he be ieve . ; that it would I t erisable to return t o the a: of the Election Committees._ ., .54 regOillti ' passed ' the 26th elarco, 11,36, it q., agreed on th at the House, on has that the Chairmen of Select Committees , this e d°llble votes b - e Co-wed:tee of four onls. !atti c ! rte , n , , ut °a in e „- teirtieeeai e seer the purpose, -Lould 'to three. This e surA "l e :4 tem such cases should be reetreet, • . he should propose that the e's aware was a eti°`lr'e; bet ''s'till it ;as, under the circumstances,_ e very exceetionabie di e d ttill'i4_'•',l6l, the best filet ceuld be devised.. in,e H r. F ero el , that the House ought to be earewl how ; it votes. tetutielth the infinence of the Chairman, or with es ~ e • es w ere "' Heuse remember that the Chairmen of Cemitellittee et thts'''l.,neoiriteti by those Committees, but by, a Committee use !lease rteuse, which fact alone showed the Ini"rt this titasstia attached to that office. He had brought forwardstated ba t h ,I'.`Alth no other object in view than those he had 10ei ri e b uid hot mean to say that it was the best remedy th u al keoeire P ro p o sed; but he had, at least, the satisfaction ,tn e ed wit! e bad called the attention of the 110u5 4 e ,,i,,n it, hi t t, b . , ?'ese observations he begged to propose the m i of t or 4 he given notice. - re %rest tet'• SWIERSET said he was not by 'any means e i the ecordena tkat it was net a mis•ortune that the business ill t h e !uttge could not to reduced .4,1%4 ti'tirtsent.state of the public business he . was home .ev to a smaller amount ; ,t bu to t lie ee l at this (illettioll was one of a eery serious character. erserrlArlet recollect ehether the Hon. Member oppasi i te .„ . et a ,_` wcen the subject of the Chairman's vote n as discussed 1, be 0-`4,°lest those who were present there appeared to Le but I)° r ,te e tis f 9 g . 24 ° 1 that was that each Committee should be co ere 'Mmbers, and also that the Chairman of eeeh !rise k r e e shetld have a double vote when a necessity should °9 th e i l l eal'iog rote. iiut what was the remedy plul tee that tl' ember? I ---- this that when a Corinne t e es should I:°P.otsed 'Phien t e , • t •"'"' ' ' proceedings of f ee , sist of lily four Members, the hadbeen thi,k thatt() three. Now he ( Lord Granville Somerset) di lied such a until the Members ;(I \ld e et. course would be extremel hereto \o not it l e e Pro Pose that three should be an absolute ouorum. hould inconvenient. . ~ Y look one member off and the Committee . s ' e eisi tie ",' t° wo, amenuld be, ' in point of fact, kreeeet- ''') the Chai. in cases where property to the giving the t _ aid e Of several miLions was concerned, that_Thw- ;:etZ ti t; ts Z i t . e erta i n 1 y be right or jcuthiiactivornu.a.n o fi f a til kit t , e j i c l, /:nd henourable the , e (1 the }louse gut bee' what respect, he should like to know, Nees edn ITOta to the decision of one gen aalf • 13 ettide, • • I .' • i y i on him , 1 410 1 •I it was asewg a gentteman to take t up i e r wet hieia It as they had no rig it to m a . s s it . l lttg erit ' a l ti it Was exi osing him to all sorts of i keild hesitate and if he were chairman of a committee, um it i lln eee b .. t..lesitate long befor e he ventured under such eye any ‘,..oe, G`o^-time to a t:ecisiori. The House ought not to place ~ hr,.,' N r l ; t l be mop in , in sech a position, and he considered that it h4ls.;Qn of te_ eolortunae• :f the Howse wet ., LAiollon- Gentleman. s last uCH agreed with the N , h e a sat I Lord who e to adopt the pro P . down olio ' '.. e the motion of bis Honour ''gf.t 'let d• At the se te P e u- t ' i n n ' te e thought that th . e House Friend for H arin g .. b e to t obliged to his Henourable . , his i p .'"ofaht for d h i • The case to which :tell,A re v ~, war tee suoject. ); e 7rttail y (1, .ad referred seas not a mere speculative • le. 1 4; 11 '1 e, e4 rred ; and one of the most important of the Nott, , reaettees hI b reduced to ,our Ale.l - al l •. a' been t h, ,Ste, th e a. was the coarse which, under such ht 1 li a ehairea'a Reuse ought et pursue? He thoug , logs te t ' i ri be t 411.°oght to be deprived of the power of see t ea • hone a, lbw • I nk that Committee should be left in . such .1 test, of pn.i it Might be possible that a question involving rn urn i .- e a eee, i e PsertY liutild be decided by two members of the C _ e ,t4hdeeide(l'lPPositon to the o•iinion of the Chairman.. 1 1 ::'iil ' tl ad Y I °Pinion that the best course which they l st 4i r. ,i , i . y i 'i't ert w ,ll el e , ll l be t? al ow the Chairman to have a Poise ARleheßeeenceesinns• best plan pro gee], was seloe. es., thought that the very . .c e ,' suppr,"ng the double vote to the chairman, but he eeeititt, • the tedium quid as the determination of t . he Is e 0 , tit s / b e ,_ heal' he would pos e/I!! oth er „lePrd of that influence which sl ' je was n " He did ' not think . that the chair , G. v eessions. Insikail ''it ' there 411 9 ERN( tilt ventured to sac, that in nooftuhlleorwaesd els, YZY Ca re • s uch a practice as that at present tt rtise , Attie rni_ttees• were t a e/ lot s , to:lutlit that whichever of thepropositions h WO,lid be tt. q ui te ithetee frogs the °lire , a Co s _ aris should be devised for rescuing the Chair 11'4eseat re"°: eireunistances if liable to such position in whiten . e_ rits. He oili a.,1; his hy the chairman' should - be prevented , from d their S i gns e . opine, ex tkttl,,° ( ifh s t „l' . said he Would propose an amendmeet to the e ni,,,,Lky e c , ta L !Qom priendth•at e ipon all questions before i. e mould be decided by the majority t ' ll r'i'estl t e t (I''''eltett!to",i' Or, Which there was a difference of . p of Airthl,ChaTther,e, the ulernbers on the Committee were even, Ne ed ' • StLesei e"51.11d have two voices, or a castin . g Voice. eti e ; t with t he Holene°ll'led the at nendment. He entirel c a..n at t "e " , he belle;eetrillibani,°PPr'ite. has,l.l,ti vi „ to 'eit.--e b est way Under all the .ffi t.i t r- Nlr. ri. , : de ~ i 'l‘. double vote to the. Chairman. fn. t o meet the di culy N 'o eet ' a' ORNE e Y . iced to irregularity and con l u,i . en se tv • one hire th e eonceived that tho•e Hon. Gent ein i tl otl l d neit b e ear ~ . ,i 116- °tlr to attend to his few remarks c k not b e he h 1 ri '`' - • at hi withdraw the ]needme eon e ad 84bIllitteti"jr"P°sing to 1 8,„., pill sid e - _... t . , In deference totliestrong opinion ', l e th e 'len HER,r(w be !louse, the, tt ' e edrn etit A __ .01 thought that the analogy proposed t, eir!'4•ll.he,shool"da•si therefor accordanc e with the analogy of the ',;t 4 its the4e4:\ VILLE ~,,,eee support it. s casting tat:tnll t t h ist eteu for thee &ria‘rr,ON saida d t thequarter se si b rive q d of his casting 4 140' 5 wer: r : Were wule thre-ne ts t i o de ' hi e m p self, but when the Leel,!,llioeght t i t ' i !al the Chairman retained his casting _vote, Le'r,i'tiees. "is Plan ought to be adopted in the Select 4fite: EBEtPssicoe tilaellet New-ii, ON said. that in the Committee on the th at th 'd be e , land, of which hesess a member, this P.m -itriserl'elialictutri"aZtae‘l.l.:l,and Lord Sjanley had so arranged elleli VANE )be a majority of one.. had been so ',lee elPress 'awl that as she opinion , ati e ere eit on both sides of the House, he hoped the ely 'could a Ar t aip reAs , ccede to the request which had been so klii, e _r a f el ; e a• Otter. 4, 5 . greed t o ''''l'l4 a ts.ords ' (r ent Lord G. SOMERSET, the e, oluti e • 'te e , "ail i, 1,,,? 1- 1%. GREENE the Gravesend and Ro sere'reitt4 '' " 11 vets read a second time, and ordered to qr• • LAN ;aisl e - GeT oe , f 'qr. Pod of •-, brought up the report of the Great 4, 4 Ox Alrffil,cl Juricticn Railway Bill. p I' 4 ' 4 t he Re t A r k •• E presented a petit ion from Perth in et c; c t! jeaerte.at Northurfgh and Northern Railway, Bill. Hartle. itt:iet4iselll),l(ll.lll., and''°43Ernegal:nad se ß c a o i l l i w d a jm ( e C , la a r n e d nc o e rdered to be Il tre 4C, Dtll-11IN'AllFsNT OF THE HOUSE. rids 'l6 l , - - the that the Heuse at its rising should ad nest„l ) ti r e ' d aY ri loth of May. , _;-( Cries of " Friday, 'hsre-etactit of ,hkl',given notice of hs intention to moves the :Ito- 'e°l:)4asttori4"lleatikrr tti. Thursday, and he felt bound to visse:p'CoNwrla',,aereed to svithnu, discussion. c't. Colonel-". DON asked for l ye of absence for three It. , k, ( , s Will„. viii , k* ea ' i Nth:. uth,,q . w A s s,- ~..,W4.5 grantet . llret''''llhe"COetjas,^'•,l-ACE. •e PETITION. that the t 4tei,ielat:preiettee.aaid he would beg leave to move o F 4 the eu,n fro Robert Wallace, Esq., h a y s e t night be ellX Al e t• Les•--( Laughter. ) V ei t , p) v LE wished to know if the Hon. Member a iir.,Teser'hertlsorea_llet.)serious in pressing this, with a view to a, ireirt"o uNssocsaer, •--( Laughter.) ,!Itt e re ttee e a ' k 'ut, said it really was his intention to found . N l- .1 -be •fle Pelitiun but he would promise that it htn• 'r.) r lEtte so i on NjeA Ic a he /1 1 , root , gas the petition itself..( Hear, and ller f re ferred t ton would be to this effect, that . h e , s tp th t , l t h is ti 0 a Select Committee, who should inqu . ir . ot Pe clie e t efrect th at ° oPen the praser of the petition, which , J r) , tto dee the House should inquire linsi far it was risqe•se.o.. °otinue the Railway Department of the Board ast.a er ttghter. )i f b House th e. riluti the .. t e should agreelo the tii,Titi„;.." he h a d P read. e Ptlort• then he would move s 'le -"ew r . --( Hear.) But when he received ;1 1 1 skrtl'e ehi e•e to Mr Wellace to say he did not think . ea ( t 1 r...;P1 bet t 11: 4 RIZ '''iti hipd° s"-(La ughtr;)—b u t Mr. Wallace did e--se( Laughter )and he appeared to know ii a' t 'et e r • eticom,t "an he did.—( Laughter.) However, as t wlt, ..eted witt i )believed that petitions of this sort were Lei t e .'!ie tOgek tt Aarth, vote s , he would withdraw it. Z lll4 elle qUer • RP HY, at t hesuggestior. of the Chancellor i v tt 4 nd lehithf vithdrew the moti on of which he had given 4 ilia, bend w as, that the petition of the churchwardens ,!qi. a ' Prre a t r e i a l . ef Woisines hani, in the counties of Becks ' , ar e • It, i IRIS toOtt „,`'. O'cf-11",•1 RANKS BILL. itlirs -elwelite -"•••NELL wished to ask the Right. Hon. t re ss I,";l‘ti bahl.wrihen it w intention to proceed with the elea'AEtte, '' In Ireland ON t'rtlered to said that the Bill had been brought ti,4.t.ll,'ial cone "' be printed. As far as the Treasury k'esr"Jiossittieertied, he Was anxiou s to proceed with it light' but h e i He could not state with accuracy the pre halt eti,4°. es - eu L a Ti'd say that it would be an early day. The le a Woke' e Wes are et 'eari then teak the opportunity of saying tared to take estimates on Friday night next 41 '44 n that t.kr. ~.n f, e i'.'ight, state what particular estiraates it was , e teertrAtee• Nal NAiti"elllAL SETTLENIENT BILL: .tq •lAN eii I ''. l ski • oee e e . AN% F 0111) asked when it was in• tj, ti '' to 40;fkEtS ci,\:tiAlliitAh;:lParochial Settlement Bill . ? . t i''' t , °1, 14 th ed 'ith the. prePlie(.l that it , was not h i l l s in h te ie n ci of theatjschifill S h eteeraeot B u l. ''tld:t orders n ' t il w after it:'loe4:holild '"ii'e r ''''''cil by thetY Nirol Yle at L e o ‘ rd en t i h n e g 'Sl em b er for lite ethe seco-ovde beeri disposed of. He would, therefore, tl e 44e 11; about reading of that Bill till the 9th of June. the _ 1'41,4, out of upon the indulence of the " a ptit4ot iott, 4_ t f ordr, in bringing forward an ho e NAesAilietitioesloutild, if the ,„ .te rtouse chose, sit down, until I tts t • J ,AICALa ,le):eopresented.—(No, no. Go on.) s i..th . e ttAl i A ~,,...w§TITU I lONS (IRELAND). . ReZt t ,.." •e tie ß w . ,ro se, -. 1 4 a _ o had resumed his seat for an to ,es p r 'o ,, et it ddeessed the House as fellows:—Sir, tie rt l / 4e ls uit Z ie d , / w'ilfierandsvisposition of the House that I should ; 0 1 t. %1: ih , b r , th e ~tj,et address you, thou . gh no i. t . a s t .n ve ni ry y .tfeea titi„,_ l Ea of the Hoese, e a m n eei n on which . st-od i • k m. ' e q to tr d i so doing it is not tat tor its diffi lt 'ir It the shall "Pa•ss long upon the attention of the le r dira bot dil ate . ._ (4, lit' :t i , Y'Airh 4 ! I ltS of th .Cher upon the importenee i.ta ije,aeriee:ice, net tehasub)ect which I am about to bring 1 arn.disposed to underrate either 4 Is te lite e rt aelee eshe see tY ; neither will the House under 11:tte tsatee nt of e! thet state that the object of the motionis tt. ti .e 'lle t 4 15 144 Will e social condition of the people it Irep reea st , "' 3' underrate its difficulty when I se . th, rosesee suggested by her Majesty's Government t o e% ia henteeta nt of that social condition consist in diffus -4,4 y .41 thethet relig trilt ittreelarid. °fsirtluatiesainon the re ' iddle . and hieher icocuseeiffe, In fact selelatatiterpnot, b e ' inndealling with this subject of ed h t i r s eitte t*on. key of the establish experience great Tence; constitute I;system t ki i t l 14 44 ete r 4 relarid certainl • nithin dhiffiaehuTtyg• e is he not i the ftetat;-,utttatseir.o'ds__lhialti.. which ) vve s have had to deal . opt e the \ -ear, hear ) Rye have not in 49 1:13 *h a )..saole havesdfferent modifications of .We in Lnglaed. Still in that country we Meet with one great and striking anomaly. The religion of the gr. at majority of the people of that country has been for centuries treated by , the State as a hostile reit. gion.—( Opposition cheers.) Even. yet that has not been entirely remove l.—( Hear, hear. 1 Civil equality has been gra• ted to the ;7essian Catholics of both countries. The penal laws have been removed, or are in process of removal, still there are traces remaining of that disposition on the part of the State to which I have referri d, and these trace: are nowhere more perceptible or more nox boss them wh , is they interfere with the education of the people. Now, Sir, I nave stated this difficulty—a difficulty which has been clearly ascertained and admitted. It has been the subject of repeated inquiries—by Commission—by Committees of this blouse from a very early period since the passing of the Union, and, in later time', we have net only the advantage of the pre cise nature of the difficulty bring ascertained, but we have the far greater advantage of considerable practical experience of the mode by which that difficulty may he satisfactorily eneoun tered, ant certainly overcome. I will shortly, Sir, refer to some of the inquiries which have been instituted on this subject. • In the first place I will refer you—but, before 1 make re ference to the report to which I shall shortly advert, I will simply make one observation, that the various plans for educating the people of Ireland with the aid of Go vernment grants which have been made, have gene rally faded wherever there has been an interference with con'cience in matters of religion.—(Hear.) I state th.a broadly as my oointon. Now, Sir, I would first advert to a very remarkable inquiry that was instituted by a Commission in P..;,( 6. I will advert to the report of that Commission, made in the year 1812. It is important, with reference to the subject to which it is now my duty to call your attention, and I hope you will pardon me if I read a few ex tracts from .that report, because this report appears to me to contain the germ of the sound principles on which the difficulties of establishing a system of national education in Ireland are to be met, and, also, it contains the principles on which the measure which I am now about to pro pose to you is generally fouuded. The Commission was ap pointed in 1806, and its report presented in 1812. I beg the attention of the House to these remarkable words—" We have applied our efforts to the forming of a system which, whilst it will afford the opportunity of educa tion to every description of the lower classes of the people"—io passing, I may observe, that the prin ciples on which we stand are not limited to the lower classes, but are eapatilo of extension to all classes in Ire land. The principle is that the proposed systa m is opeu to every description of the lower classes of the people, while at the same time, by keeping clear cf all differences with respect to the particular religious tenets of any, it. will induce the whole to receive its benefits as one united body, and under one and the same system and the same establishment. They then refer more pointedly to the subject in these terme, " It is of essential importance that there should be new schools for the education of the lower classes in Ireland, and we ven removal on the part of the responsible adviser of the Crown, shall depend upon the cause which shall be shown. I would say that it would be well that the princiral should reside within the walls of the college ; but it is not intended to provide accummodatioo for either the pro fessors or students ; in this respect folio sing the;example of the universities in Scotland. But, however, there shall be im mediate control and supervision exercised over the students of the college indirectly, and no doubt perfectly satisfactory to the parents and guardians who etitrud the students to the care of ~the college, No pi ovision is made for the retidence of the professors or students within the walls of the col lege. Instruction will be given by lecturers, and there will be daily examinations; for lectures, without con t null and searching examination, may be made per fectly fruitless, and attended with no benefits. I have already stated that, consistently wilh the principle upon which this measure is based, there will be in none of these colleges endowments for professors of theology ; it is not proposed to allow anything for that purpose. Religion, however, is not to be entirely disregarded. It is our intention to propose that every facility be given for endowment by private benefaction of professors of theology, subject to the visitorial power of tho Crown. I think it would be monstrous if any other course should be taken.--; Hear.) Now, Sir, it is clear that in the colleges in Cork and in Galway the Roman Catholic students will be a majority, but I do hope that the Protestant youth of the neigh bourhood will attend thoSe colleges and share in the advan tages of education in the arts and sciences which can there be procured. But suppose wealthy Protestant parents should be anxious to secure for their children attending those col leges, that some provision should be made for the education of those children in the doctrines of the religion held by their forefathers, by means of private benefactions and-endowments for securing them religious instruction in the colleges of Cork and Galway, it would be hard beyond measure if full effect were not given to these beneficent intentions, and if every facility were not afforded for carrying them into eff et. We intend that th's Bill should afford all these fa peth. The Eight Hon. Baronet then prime led to read the extract, which was t o th e e ff ect t h at he (Mr. Wyse) trusted he had placed before his Lordship the true character and bearing of this case, and the necessity of es'ablishing a series of I re vincial co'leges in Ireland, and at the conclusion the Hon. Member said that " for his part, sensible as he was how very little attention his opinion was entitled to, still he would say, that this would be tho great e•t boon that could be left behind by any Government."—( Hear, hear.) This is the Ho nourabla Meinter's opinion on this important ques tion, and I fully agree with him. I am decidedly or opinion that if the House should give its sanction to this proposition, it will be a measure that toil, be most favourable to Ireland, in a moral and social point of view, upon the condition of the people of that c ountry.—( . Hear : ) It will have the effect of increasing order, peace, and virtue in Ireland, which should be the great objects of all civil govern ments.--( Hear, hear.) I was taunted wi h my want of success in proposing a measu re o f t hi s sort on a f or mer occasion. I am aware of my inability, as an advocate, to deal w it h a question of such impo r t ance . I call upon t h e H o use to give this measure their general su p port an d co-opera tion, without reference to religious or p o liti ca l di stinct i ons t h a t may exist in Ireland. I have endeavou re d t o state b ot h f u lly and fairly the nature of the measure. I have tilt left out any particle of the case. I have stated all the diffi cu l t i es w hi c h ex i s t with a strict sense of justice and propriety. I have nothing more to ray than to thank the Hous e f or t h e pat i ence w ith which it has attended to me, and to move for leave to bring in a Bill to enable her Majesty to endow colleges for the advancement of education in Ireland. u ino was ss for p o s n t o h n e g e e t o f her connected Ia j w e i s t t h y The motion being put, m l ti Mr. WYSE said that he was aware t h a t it would be im proper to pre s s upon th e att ent i on of t h e H ouse an y observa tion, he might be permitted to ma k e a f ew o bservations upon the various parts of the measure w hi c h h a d b een submitted to them. He thought it w as unw i se an d d angero us to the social 's thGe n d v i e s i e n u m ss e io n n t' obf utht'isaqsuhese twinhaats th:lehnis oiet ' t i e The n a tmlimprovement commu nity.t o tba f u large rhs e geen p eno r du e ul n s ci e tab n t le t ieor n s os y afg s t c t i , e hs, ef m i anl (el over teht(ntieuhmke wasold t. infinitely superior to that which the country had previously given to them. Hitherto, the chief obstacle in the way of ex tending this system of e d uca ti on was t h e re ligious differences which existed in I re l an d, b ut h e was re joiced to say that these obstacles were gradually me l t i ng away. ( Iles.r, hear.) He considered that, along with ele men tary schools, there ought to be intermediate schools betwe en them and the colleges, somewhat analogous to the grammar schools in this country. Such schools, if established, would be best calculated to supply with pupils the proposed universities or colleges. The Go vernment had given its assent to 32 model schools for Ireland, and it would rest with the Board of Education to give to them proper efficiency, in carrying out the object for which they were instituted. After alluding to the great necessity of care being taken, in the educational institutions about to be esta blished, that no religious intolerance, or religious sectarianism, should be allowed to interfere with the primary ends for which they were instituted, the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to show the importance of givin g to these schools an industrial cha racter. They ought to be put in possession of a more superior character in this respect, than any they now had. There ought to be an organisation in each of the col leges, dependant upon the particular localities in which they were established, and in each of them there should be be a mining department for training the youth in a knowledge of the important branches connected with the mineral kingdom, and through which minim an d geological explorations could be undertaken throughout Ireland. There ought also to be an in dustrial museum established in Dublin, in which there could be collected every kind of specimen, whether mineral or otherwise, for the information of the student, and under whose superin tendence those geological exprditions could be conducted. By these means the young men could be trained in civil engineering, and be made to acquire habits of industry, energy, and perse verance, and be made conversant with the most useful and im portant branches of practical science. Through these arrange ments a substantial middle class might be formed in that country, and a great amount of general good diffused. In ad dition to a central museum in Dublin, large museums ought also to be established in other parts of the country, not only for the use of the students of the colleges, but accessible to the inhabitants, in connexion with which there might be carefully selected libraries. For these purposes her Majesty's Government should give buildings and afford the nucleus of each establishment, leaving their extension and improvement to the liberality of the public. He would not go into the payment of professors, though he considered, as those colleges were to be establish ments for the public at large, the system of lodging and boarding should not be allowed to become a system of profit and abuse on the part of the heads of those establishments. No observation had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet re specting what remedies he intended to be applied against those who might engage in theolo g ical discussion, whether they were to be placed in the bands of the superiors of the col leges, or to proceed direct from the Government itself. Without some efficient arrangement of this sort, he was satis fied the colleges would dwindle into mere places of popular lecturing, and the Government be under the necessity of suppressing them altogether, or else entirely remodelling them. He thought that, ultimately, a greater number of col leges ought to be established in the country than the three proposed at Belfast, Cork, and Galway, though he considered that number would suffice for the present. He was of opinion that Galway, Cork, and Belfast, were judiciously selected as the sites of the three Colleges proposed, but in ad dition he considered there should be one established at Dublin. He did not mean that it should be established in opposition to the University of Dublin, but as an industrial seminary for the accommodation of that part of the country. He as a Roman Catholic, was as pleased at seeing institutions endowed for the education of Protestants or Presbyterians, as he was at the support given for the College of Maynooth. His only regret was, that the sums to be applied for these purposes was not large enough. With regard to the constitution of these semi naries, he should like to see an aggregation of them, something like to the University of London, which was made up of a num ber of colleges, and it might be called the University of Ireland. He was of opinion that sooner or later such a course would have to be adopted. With regard to any competition that might be supposed to arise between this University of lrelsnd and the University of Dublin, he did not apprehend much fear. Such competition he considered would not be very successful. The University of Dublin was an old and much respected semi nary of learning, and had a prestige and a name to support it, which a new institution could not hope to have. By the Act of 1793, to which theL,Right Hon. Baronet had referred, the principle had been fully laid down that Trinity College in Dublin should be opened to both Roman Catho licsparties si t l and Protestants. The openin g o f the Dublin University o l v 7 e to all these present the only n o y f ment of its fellows, and he s aw no reason why this principle should not of governmenthep u extendingh lDublin was the under Actthe ogen f 93 -. be extended, so that in the ag gregation of colleges throughout Ireland their members should have the power of management. The carrying out of the proposed principle need give no alarm to Protestants, Presbyterians, or Roman Catholics, for it would only be carrying out the intention of the foundation of Elizabeth,which was brought forward as an act of justice to the Roman'Catholics, for the educational institutions they had been deprived of at the period of the Reformation. Trinity College was by no means one of an exclusively ecclesiastical character, hut it was said May nooth was exclusively confined to Catholics, and, therefore, it was urged that the Dublin University ought to be exclusively confined to Protestants. His answer, however , to this was, that the Dublin University was not solely an ecclesiastical foundation, but it was an ecclesiastical and lay foundation. In his opinion, therefore, the college ought to be thrown open alike to Catholics as well as Protestants. Now, he would let the Dublin University have the control of all those colleges, and he thought the present state of the university was favourable to the adoption of such a plan. The measure of the Government,' if properly carried out, was highly calculated to draw out the energies of the people, and give that intellectual tone and temper to their minds which had been so long wanted. In future years, Go vernment might depend upon it, their present policy would enable the Irish people to contribute to the wealth and in fluence of this country, and there could be no doubt this mea. sure would leave grateful recollections in the minds, if not of the present race, at least of those who should come after them. Air. ROSS expressed his great gratification at the state ment of the Right Hon. - Baronet, end confessed that it would go far to remove the differences which had for some time existed in the College of Belfast. The proposition, he was sure, would give universal satisfaction to the people of I reland. Mr. BELLEW agreed with the Hon. Member for Waterford that, it was extremely desirable that a second university should be established s in connexion with Trinity College, for the ad mission of persons of all religious denominations, without in terfering with the rights of that institution. With respect to the principle of endowing colleges in the manner proposed by the Government, he begged to draw the attention of the House to the opinion of the Catholic cle r gy on thisy st subject. The Catholic ;clergy to a man were oppos ed to cr State dovvment as far as they themselves were concerne , for nothing would be more acceptable to them thin endowmentsnot t education of the people. Government had Mr. T. B. ROCHE was glad the brought this measure forward, because it would act as a safe guard against revolutionary outbreaks. He was a repealer, but nevertheless as much opposed to the undue invasion of democracy as he was to the undue domination of an aristocracy. It did not strike his mind that this grant of 18,0001. a year, and 100,0001. was sufficiently comprehensive. It did not go half far enough. It was not systematic, because there was no con necting link between the national system and this collegiate education. He thought that there should either be a second university in Dublin, or they should throw open the one which already existed. It was proposed to establish 32 model rehoole, but the funds for them were to be taken out of the funds ap propriated for the national system of education for the. This uca was taking away the funds which were appropri ated ed tion of the poorer classes, in order to give an elementary edu cation to the middle classes. But he was ready to acknowledge that the measure, so far as it went, was one of promise and of hope for Ireland.--( Hear.) Sir R. INGLIS sai d, that though the principle involved of universal in the present measure was oneand paramount importance, he was desirous of hearing the Members fro m Ireland express their opinions upo n It before he delivered hi s o wn. The principle of the measure was one, however, no t of Irish interests, but.of imperial and nati ona l i mportance. Did he rightly unders tand his Right Hon. Friend to say, that there was to be no distinct religio is u la s instruction in the insti tutions which in the name of her h jesty he now proposed to the House ? ( R ea r, hear, and c eers.) Those cheers ac knowledged the accuracy of his impression. There was then to be no religious instr • ucti on in those college s . H e wou ld Gentleman opposite, who ask the Right lion. was, perhaps, better acquainted w ith the history of education th an any Member of that House-01r • Wyse)—whether he could point out a single instance inthe history of England, in which a national ins titution connected with education had been endowed by the State, except upon the principle of an Es tablished Church, whether that were the Church of Rome l Estabished or the Church of Scotland, o r the Episcopacy of this country ? There was no instance of such an in s tit u ti on w hi c h was not based on religi on, which was the great and important interest of this life, because it was the promise of their eternal till this 9th Never of M happiness in the next.ay, 1845, bad an attempt been made to such establish an institution. He instances • knew that there were two such institutions, this country, but he might call them amateur-m a is s stablished according individn , to the peculiar taste of certain But he th caros d One of those was the London University , whi a , indeed, called by an ether name.—( A lalaugh. .) were not instances in point. Little did he be lie .went,eave y years ago, th a t a measure like the present would emanate from the present Govesnment, or that the principle it involved would receive their sanction. He knew that his Right Hon. Friend would not sanction such is own famYt a principle I il , and if so, he did not see why he should adopt it for thos e who were equally under his controul, and for whom he (Sir R. Inglis) held that he was equally responsible.—( Hear, hear.) He did not even know if moral philosophy was to be taught in those in stitutions which were to be established in Ireland; but what was the value of moral philosophy if not based on:religion ? A more gigantic scheme of Godless education was never pro osed in an country. And was it not the b oas t, or , at all events, the distinctive meri t claimed for thej measure by his Right Hon Friend, that those institutions were to be without the word of God? He would not go into the details of the measure, because when the principle of the measure was so bad, the d trails became comparatively unimportant ; but from r the plaudits with which certain parts of his Right Hon. Friend's speech were received by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, he thought cilities. Of course there will be no compulsory at tendance on these theological instructions, and the professorships will only be instituted in case there should bo a sufficient number of students, and a provision made by benefaction and endowment. The principle equally applies to the Roman Catholics. I suppo:e and hope that many Roman Catholic youths will attend the college of Belfast. That college will be mainly a Presbyterian college, but it would be hard be • yond measure if the parents of Boman Catholics should not have every facility afforded them for erecting endowments for the religious instruction of their children in that college. The attendance on these theological instructions will, as 1 said be fore, not be compulsory. The fundamental principle of this measure—that upon which I ask for it the sanction of this !louse—is the avoidance of all interference, positive or negative, with the religious scruples of the people. That is the principle for which I contend—that is the principle from which I anticipate the success of the measure.—( Hear.) I have said that there were certain circumstances relating to Belfast to which I would allude. Now, the House will bear in mind, that the acade mical institution of Belfast has received the aid of a Parlia mentary grant of 2,1(.0/. a year. This for some years past has been voted in the annual estimates. That institution was originally founded on the principle for which I contend as clearly necessary for the founttation of academical institu tions in Ireland. That institution is mainly attended by the Presbyterians of the north of Ireland, and by the Presbyte rian youth training for the university in that part of the country. There are in that institution now four endowed ministers, as professors of Divinity, nominated, not by the governing body of the academical institution, but by the General Assembly of Ulster, in connexion with that circuit.. It would be hard to deprive that body of the benefits they have now received for a period approaching, I think, to twenty years. It is not the intention of the Government to deprive the General Assembly of Ulster of the benefits they have hitherto enjoyed. It would form no part of this Klan—it wou'd -be in consistent with the principles of this Bill to introduce anything into the particular character of theological endowments, but in making this statement it is right that. I should inform the House that it is the intention of the Government, in the annual votes, to propose the continuance of the endowment of the four ministers connected with the Presbyterian Church in the north of Ireland—to continue it not only in the present year, but they contemplate its continuance in the future estimates of future years. Now, I cannot speak confidently, but I have every reason to believe if this measure should be sanctioned by Parliament, that facility will be given by the academical mana gers of the academical institution of Belfast, to transfer their building and premises, and even their library, on easy terms, to the Government, for the purpose of founding a college in the north of Ireland. Of course, if that arrangement should take place, it would tenet materially to diminish the expense; at the same time there is an expenditure which I are quite sure the House would sanction. The professors now serving in that institution have engagements with the college that they shall receive the salary voted by Parliament for their lives,unless they shall be removed on account of misconduct. That is a bargain with that institution. I think it would be highly in convenient, if this institution should be transferred, to limit the choice of the Crown to these particular professors, because some of them might be taken and some of them it might be desirable not to re-appoint, but in case any one of those gen. tleinen row occupying a situation for life, and not being re appointed, I think a provision should be made for ample and lull compensation. Now, Sir, as relates to the question of colleges, I am not aware that I have failed to state anything calcula•ed to make the plan of the Government intelligible to the House. But I should leave my statement in a very imperfect condition if I did not, before I sat down, glance at other great and pecuniary interests. The Bill which I shall ask leave to introduce does no more than propose to found colleges in Ireland. But the great question immediately pre sents itself, will these three colleges be established as one. uni versity, or, following the example of Scotland, shall the Crown, in the exercise of its prerogative, endow each of these colleges with the faculty of granting degrees in arts, science, and medicine ? It is not necessary, nor even expedient, in the present Bill, or at the present time, to come to a definite ar rangement on that point. But I will not, for a moment, be so far deficient in candour as not to state to the House what my own judgment is on the matter. I think that the advantages in favour of a central university preponderate.—( Hear, hear. ) I think that a central university would be a common arena where the youth of Ireland may contest, in honest and honour able rivalry, for the advantages and emoluments of superior in dustry ansi superior attainments. The national character of such an institution can only be exalted by such rivalry, and it you had the parts of universities. scattered throughout Ireland, they would not be this great national institution which I am anxious they should be. I think, also, that a great. moral effect is certain of bring produced throughout the youth of Ireland, by the competition to which I have referred. The youth of Ire land, meeting froze their various establishments at a central point, where they will contend for honours, to be obtained by great merit and superior attainments, without. any reference to creed and party distinctions, will produce a most beneficial effect on their common intercourse in future life, wherever they meet.—(Hear, hear.) It is impossible for any Gentle man in this House, who has been in one of our own universi ture to express our unanimous opinion, that no such plan however wire and unexceptionable in other respects, can be tarried into effectual execution in this country. unless it is explicitly avowed, and clearly understood as its leading prin ciple, that no attempt shall be made to influence or disturb the peculiar tenets of any sect or creed."—(Hear, hear.) I beg to call particular attention to this report, and I repeat it contains the only sound principle upon which education in Ireland may be dealt with ; and I again repeat, that it is the germ of the principle which has been lately carried into effect in Ireland, and is the principle upon which the mea sure lam about to introduce is founded. I beg to call the attention of the House to the signatures attached to this report. It is signed by the Primate of Ireland, the Protestant Primate of that day. !he Archbishop of Cashel, the Protestant Archbishop of Cashel, the Bishop of Killala, Dr. Ebrington, and Mr. Leslie Forster. More unexceptionable authorities there could not be. I now beg leave to call the attention of the House to the Commission of 1826. The Members who composed it were Mr. Frankland Lewis, the late Baron Fors ter, Mr. Blake, Mr. Glassford, and Mr. Grant. They report, "that schools should be established for the purpose of giving to the children of all religious persuasions such useful instruc tion as they might severally be capable or desirous of receiving, without having any grounds to apprehend any interference with their re'pcctive religious tenets." And then they give their recommendation, " that religious instruction should be given to Protestants and Roman Catholics, cot jointly, but sepa rately." I will now shortly call the attention of the House to the repert of a Committee of this House in 1828. They say that they consulted and referred to the reports of the te , renntirissiens, front which I have already read extracts, namely, the commissions of 1612 and 1826. I have the report of that Committee here, and the several resolutions to which they came ; but I e ill not detain the House by reading them at lergth, but will content myselt with giving a summary of their report in the words of a letter addressed by my Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), in 1838, to the Duke of Leinster, at the period the National Board was formed. My Noble Friend gives a summary of their report in these terms:—" In iB2B, a Committee of the House, to which was referred the various reports of the Com missioners of Education, recommended a system to be adopted which should afford, if possible, a combined literary, aed se parate religious education, and it should be so far adapted to the views of the religious persuasions which prevailed in Ire land as to render it, in truth, a system of na tional education for the poorer classes of the community. In this undertaking, mach must depend en the characters of the individuals who compose the Board; and, whilst the inte rests of religion must not he overlooked, care must be taken not to interfere with particular and peculiar tenets of Christianity." This matter was referred to a Committee of the Howe in 1830, and that Committee reported that they had received much evidence of imporance on the subject of the education of the poor. The Committee said they could but hope that no further time would be lost in giving the public the benefit of the recom mendation of the Committees of 1812 and 1825, or the practical recommendations of the Committees of 1828. In the following ,ear, 1831, the present system of national education for the poorer classes was established in Ireland. The principle upon which the report of this Committee was founded, and upon which that scheme of education rests, is summed up in the re port which I have just received, and which I am RIAU to lay upon the table of this House. It is the report, in the present year, of the Board of Commissioners of National Education in Ireland It is stated with brevity but with perfect accuracy and remarkable clearness " The principle of this Board is and has been from the beginning, that the national schools shall be open alike to Christians of all denominations ; and that no child snail be required to be present at any relie pious instruction in these schools, if the parents and guar dians disapproved of it ; and an opportunity is afforded to all chrid en to receive sepaeate, and, at particular periods, such instruction as the parents and guardians provide for them." 1 have now stated to the House the grounds upon which, I say, that we are furnished with sufficient practical knowledge and experience to legislate upon the subject. The difficulties have been ascertained, and the mode in which they are to be met has been enunciated by high authorities. Possessing this know ledge sad this experience, we proceed to the application of the theory. While it was attempted to educate the people of Ireland by setting aside those principles, and to connect that education with an attempt to proselytise and teach exclusive religious pi iteiples, we failed, although large sums of money were annually voted. These EI:MS, I repeat, were voted in vain.--( Hear ) The great body of the people of Ireland did not partake of this exclusive education. One society, that for promoting English Protestant schools in Ireland, was established. And in 1835, the last year in which the Parliamentary grant was made, 21,0(701. was voted, and yet, in 1831, the total num ber of children attending these schools was 2,500. Another society was established which carried its operations into Ire land—the society for discountenancing vice. Up to the year lee2s, there was an annual vote of the House in favour of this society, and the last year the grant was 7,5001. In 1824, the number of schools was 226, and the number of children, 12,769, of which 7,800 were Protestants, and only 4,969 Roman Catholics. Now, the first and only experiment which had been made on the opposite principle, and which had been laid before the Primate of Ireland, was in the year 1812, and that, I again repeat, was the first and only experiment which had been made. Let me call the attention of the House to the re markable results of that experiment. I shall not go back beyond the year 1839, but in that year I find that there were 1581 schools in Ireland, and the number of children was 205,000. I shall pass to the end of the year 1844, when I find that there were no less than 3,153 schools, and the number of children attending them amounted to 395,000; thus the House will see that on this new and improved principle nearly 400,000 children are annually educated in Ireland. Sow, Sir, it has been said by many persons that this education is almost wholly confined to the humbler classes, and to obviate this disadvan tage, in the proeosid I am about to make I iniend to extend that education to the higher classes, and so to remove the ob jection which is Is been so frequently urged. Owing to the liberal policy pursued by the French Government, I have the satisfaction of stating to the House that the National Assembly have determined to immediately establish schools on ex .etly the same principle with the proposed system of National Edu cation in Ireland. Now, Sir, I have hitherto spoken only of Leland; but I should present but a very imperfect view of the question in general, if I should confine your attention exclu sively to that country. For a very long period there prevailed a very general impression that the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, as immediately connected with the Established Church of the country, should not be opened to all classes of her Majesty's subjects ; but that exclusive princi ple was not found to have the effect intended. But in these difficulties it was thought expedient, and the Go vernment concurred in that, that there should he established ties, not to remember, with sentiments of esteem and respect, those with vrhsim we contended, and whose superiority to our selves we may have reason to recollect. I do not think you will secure those valuable effects in any other way with certainty, except by coming together at one point. I admit that it has disadvantages also, because there is great difficulty, and I be lieve it is inherent in the system, in obtaining sufficient number of examiners who are accustomed to habits of teaching and giving lectures. This brings me to the question—if you are to have a separate university, where should it be? —( . Hear, hear.) I am bound to say that it you come to the conclusion that there shall be a central university, that it should be in the metropolis of Ireland. This at once presents a question of great difficulty which I am resolved not to blink-4 Hear, hear.) I am of opi nion that it is neither wise nor just to allow any interference with Trinity College as it at present exists.—( Hear, hear, from the 'Ministerial side.) It is strictly of Protestant forma tion. It was founded by Queen Elizabeth avowedly for Pro testant purposes. These purposes have been clearly mani fested from time to time, and it is from that seminary the Established Church draws its priesthood. We have encoun tered much obloquy and made many painful sacrifices, if not of friendship, at least of the confidence of many of our . supporters, by manifesting a desire for the education of the Roman Catholic priesthood. In proposing a grant to May nooth to-night, I announce the intention of the Government. to continue the annual sum, whereby the Presbyterians of the north will have an opportunity of educating their priesthood. I find, I repeat, Trinity College endowed by a Protestant Sove reign,: avowedly for the purpose of providing ministers for the established religion in Ireland; and I cannot, under such cir cumstances, think it right that that property should be taken away or disturbed. It is right that I should inform the House that Trinity College is so interwoven and blended by long use and by long possession with Dub lin University, that even if it were expedient to make a severance, it would be found difficult, if not dangerous, to do so. And, be it remembered, neither that college nor the Dublin University were exclusively established. In 1793, that memorable year when the elective franchise was given to the Roman Catholics—when the Relief Act was passed by the Irish Parliament, a very singular arrangement took place in reference to Dublin University. I will read for the House a clause of an Act which was passed at that time for the relief of Roman Ca. tholics. After recounting the preamble, the clause went on to say, " and be it enacted that from and after the first day of June, 1793, it may not be necessary for any person taking de grees usually conferred by said university, to make or subscribe any declaration, or take any oath, save the oath of al legiance." Letters patent were issued by the Sovereign, cohfirining and extending these privileges to Roman Catho lics, Thus Roman Catholics entering Dublin university could have no scruples in entering those colleges. They might take degrees in the university, and partake of all its , .ad -vataintadgewsh—en(lrlonsai n a e g a e r s , hear," e a r , ' ' c y al al c i r t i li .s e o a f dv ‘ a ‘ except fr certain om e n - I h °' l e a ' -) mentary advantages which this university affords. Now, I have to call the attention of the House to a matter of the highest importance, I mean the evidence given by Mr. O'Con nell before a Committee of their Lordships' House on this very point, namely, whether it would be desirable that the Queen a College, which had at first been instituted and intended solely for Protestants, should be opened to Roman Catholics.—( The Right Hon. Gentleman then referred to the evidence given by Mr. O'Connell before a Committee of the House of Lords, the purport of the answers given by the Honourable Member for Cork being, that as Trinity College was intended only for the education of Protestants by its founders, it would be unfair, if not unjust, to admit Ro man Catholics to its privileges. I have not a word mote to add here.—(Cheers.) This evidence was given before a Committee of the House of Lords, and it appears to me con clusive ou this subject. Now, 1 must say, that the intention to force on the Protestants of Ireland the admission of Roman Catholics into the Queen's College, is destructive of their rights of conscience ; it is imagined by them a violation of the Constitution—a violation which would spread such an alarm throughout the while body as would render any measure pro posed by Government entirely impracticable ; and, therefore, it is that the Government do not propose to bring forward any proposition to this effoct. The subject was brought before the Irish Parlirment in 1797, and certain resolutions were adopted, among them was one which I will read to the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman read the resolution to the House, which was to the effect that the adoption of a second uni versity in Ireland was calculated to do the greatest good in that country. That question did not, however, arise in th e pre sent Bill, its only object being to establish three provincial colleges, and, looking practically to the question, I am disposed to recommend the measure to the House, as least open to objection, and practical in execution.—(Hear.) And now let me say a few words in reference to the Hon. Member far Waterford.—(Hear, hear.) I do say I would in deed but ill discharge my duty if I were not to bear to him the humble meed of my praise for the part he has taken in re ference to this question.—( Hear, hear.) That Hon. Member has persevered in his advocacy of an extended system of educa tion in Ireland, in good report and in evil report--( Hear, heart)—and under circumstances of having against him at one time an adverse Government ; yet h e did his u t most to give the measure effect, without permitting the interfere nce o f any ill-feeling towards a Government that did not possess his con fidenee.—(Hear, hear.) In fact, a course more high-minded and honourable than that pursued by the Hon. Member for Waterford could not have been followed by any man—( Hear, hear)—and whatever may be t he fate of this measure, wheth er ' it be rejected or not, 1 shall never forget that a large portion of the merit—if merit it has—is . duo to the H on . M ember for Waterford,—( Hear, hear.) I think, also, th a t some attention is due to the opinion of the Honourable Member, for he has at t ende d ver y carefully to the sub ject, and has practically confined hi mse lf to the ne cessity of establishing .provincial coll eges i n Ireland.-- (Hear,bear.) Before I sit down I shall rea d t h e opinion of the Hen. Dlipber, expressed by him in a letter to Lord Mor in this metropolis a third University, and in that University no test is required if teacher or student.—( Hear, hear.) No religious test either is necessary, in fact there is perfect free dom.— ( Hear, hear ) All the Universities were combined in perfect harmony with the University of London, and I have given my con. ent to such a University being established in Carlow.—( Hear, hear.) Well, to pass from England, and to advert to Scotland ; amid all the religious squabbles that have taken place, there no test was required. Now, Sir, I have stated to the House what appears to me the sound principle that ought to be adopted in the matter, and I have demonstrated what has been their value and what has been their results. And really I do say that, considering the experience we have had of the state of the theoretical sciences, and of society, and of the different re: _sou, persecutions in Ireland, her Majesty's Government should have no hesitation in recommending the establishment and endowment of provincial colleges in Ireland upon the principles I have stated.—(Hear, hear.) I have now endeavoured to sketch the outline of the plan, but 1 have said nothing of the lecality of each university, or of the system of education to be adopted in the colleges. It would naturally occur to the mind of any gentleman conversant with the state of Ireland, that one of the three universities should be esta blished in the south of Ireland, but the particular place we have not fixed Oil. Cork has been spoken ot as an eligible place for the sou+. Heir. hear.) There is an immense population in that city, and some very important schools exist there at pre--ent—( Hear, hear) —to which there is great facility of access, and it is surrounded by a dense population ; and a very strong feeling has already been expre , ezd by the people of that city in favour of extended education.— ( Hear, hear.) On these grounds, then, I would say, that Cork is naturally the locality that would be selected for the university for the south. —( f ear, hear.) Then it is not intended to overlook the west of Ireland, and therefore either Limerick or Galway would be selected as the most convenient locality fer the west. —( hear.) And, then, with respect to the north, it is a question: whether would Belfast or llert y be the most con venient locality for the university for the north.—( Hear.) think that taking into account all the circumstances con nected with Belfast, that - city affords the best facilities for the northern locality.—(Hear, hear.) Now, of course, we are not to be Understood as pledging ourselves as to what would be the precise amount of the expense that would attend the com pletion of a proposition of this sort. But I should say that for the purposes of building, and fitting up, about 30,0001. fur each university would be sufficient, or about 100,000/. for building the three. As to the annual expenses of principal and vice-principals, and president, and prizes, the Government would recommend for the annual endowment of each 6,0001., or, including the 100,0001. for building, the whole expenses would be about 118,0001.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Each college st ill have ten or twelve professors, who will be allowed 3001. a-year each ; and especially, both at Cork and Belfast, there will be medical schools, to which I attach the greatest importance; and when I say twelve professors, I in clude the professors in anatomy, surgery, and pharmacy. It is our intention, considering that the endowment is 10 be made by the Crown, to propose that the pro fessors in all the three colleges shall be nominated by the Crown ; that the Crown shall have not only the power of nomie eating, but the power of removing upon cause shown. I have always said that while we seek to exelude any undue inter ference with religious opinions, security must be taken that the election' Of lecturers 'shall not be thus peculiarly distiia- Oshed. The circumstances are ouch that the power of II iii SU N, (TN 1) ON, SA t --- (3 RDA Y MORNIN G, MA V 10, 1845. t on. He said there was no former instance of a State under taking the education of a people without connecting with it a religious system. The Hon. Baronet seemed to have forgotten the system of national education in Ireland.—( Hear.) The original plan was often pressed on the attention of the House by my lion. Friend the Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse) to whom the credit of its system belongs, although, until this evening, I never heard a Minister of the Crown make the ad mission. The whole of the plan introduced by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley) was one condensation of suggestions thrown out from time to time by my Hon. Friend, whose reward is 'confined to his own breast, which might admit of the highest order of reward.—( Hear. ) This system of national education, I repeat, has been sanc tioned and established by the Government.—(Sir It. Inglis gave signs of dissent). Does the Hon. Baronet dispute in the the teeth of the fact ? Sir R. INGLIS—(as we understood him)—it was not an endowment. Mr. SHEIL—ShaII we dispute about the word "endow ment"—shall we go into sophistication, a-.d learned subtleties? The Hon. Baronet is a member of a scholastic institution, and brings from it with him distinctions which rather belong to refined dialectics. There is no real, substantial distinction be tween a grant made every year and an endowment, but the latter has the great advantage of avoiding disputes and contro versies, of which we have recently had such lamentable in stances.—( Hear, hear.) In one point of view, strange to say, I coincide with the Hon. Baronet. I mean with respect to the necessity of religious instruction—l think it is; unfortunate that the Right Hon Gentleman has not devised some means. I will yet trust to the ingenuity of the Right Hon. Gentleman to pro vide some means by which the reproach may be re moved that no religious instruction of any kind is to be given in these establishments. The object is, of course, to make this measure acceptable to the great body cf the people and to those who have great weight and influence among them, I mean the Roman Catholic priest hood, to conciliate whose feelings you are evidently anxious. The great body of the Roman Catholic priesthood will com plain that no means have been adopted for the purpose of con veying religious instruction in those colleges, and my Hon. Friend made, I think, a very useful suggestion that, hereafter, individuals might be allowed to grant, for the purpose of en dowing a chair of divinity, if they thought proper. The sug gestion seemed to have been adopted by the Right Honourable Gentleman, but such a matter ought not to be left, I will not say to caprice, but to the casua l di scre ti on , respect i ng t h e ex ercise of which we cannot with any confidence predicate. I tell you that the Roman Catholic clergy will object to your plan on this ground. I have here a pamphlet, written by a gentleman of high talents, a personal friend of my own, who is professor in the Catholic College of Thurles, which was esta blished by a Roman Catholic Archbishop, who bequeathed to it 20,000 L, which he earned hard in the seminary of Ulver stone in this country. Dr. Lahey is the author of the pamphlet to which I allude—the ablest man in the college. He is of opi nion that there ought to be a separate system of education where practicable, but he says a " mixed system of education is better than none, but with a mixed cyst, mof education, reli gious instruction is compatible." Religious instruction is given to the lower classes in Ireland under the present system of education there. Roman Catholic priests attend at the schools for the purpose of giving religious instruc tion, and Protestant clergymen are likewise at liberty to do se. Certain houses are there allocated for the purposes of religious instruction, and every facility is offered to those who attend to administer such instruction. I should think the same facilities ought to be given here—( Hear, hear, from Sir J. Graham)— and that it should be made imperative on those in the establish ments to attend some place of religious worship.—(No, no.) I can see no objection. I think it is a very reasonable request. You may say you cannot apply the public money to religious education, and I admit that difficulties have been thrown in the way of such a proposition on a late occasion which may well discourage any Government. But a middle course may be adopted, and I should very much regret that no religious in struction was to be given in those colleges. 1 think the Ca tholic bishops in their particular districts ought to see that re ligious instruction was given to those members of his faith who were in that college. lam sure it would be his duty, and I see no sort_of reason why he should not. _ _ ' that his Right Hi n. Friend the Member for the University of Dublin had reason to apprehend that it would shake the foun d Akins of that Protestant University. V ben th Right Hon. Gentleman referred to the opinions of Mr, O'Connell, he heard the Right Hon. Gentleman the Memb tr for Dungar von (Mr. Shiel ) say, in an a. dibio whisper, that this was long ago, and though he admitted th t opinions might and ought to change—( Hear)—yet in opinion like that quoted by hi, Right Hon. F. iend, h ill, indeed, was more a prom's? that he would u•e no influence to disturb that insti tntim, than an oyi i in—on;ht not to be all wed.—; Hear.) they had always depreca'ed those loose principles of educa tion. He entirely differed from the measure of the Govern ment—he never could consent to make himself a party to mea sures of such a character. He believed the present measure t i be founded on an absolute disregard of those principles which they had hitherto cherished. He believed the measure to be subversive of the best interests of Christianity. Never till now had they been called upon to provide a system of education not only without religion, but throwing religion entirely over board. He did not, however, feel himself called upon to divide the House on the present occasion ; but he would, on a subsequent stage, raise his voice, if it were to be a solitary one, against a Bill, the very foundation and principles of which he believed to he defective. Mr. S HEIL then ruse and said—Sir, the Hon. Baronet who has just sat down called it " a gigantic scheme of God less education," a phrase which certainly has been more unscrupulously used than almost any o , her, and which seems much misapplied as regards the proposition of the Government to establish in Ireland these colleges for the instruction of the higher and middle classes there. I thought that the clear and perspicuous statement of the Hnn Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in which he referred the disastrous failure of every attempt to propagate in Ireland education on the exclusive principles of the religion of the Church of England, must Live (o.lv:nced the Hon. Baronet that in this experiment it was useless to persevere. If any thing could be made perceptible to the mind of the Hon. Gen tieman—if anything could force conviction on his mind, and even in despite of the inveteracy with which he cherishes his opinions—these notorious facts would have forced that convic- Sir J. GRAHANi—There is nothing to prevent them. Mr. SHELL—I own that I desire that means were taken to enforce it.—(No, no.) Well, I am anxious that pair plan should succeed, though I see much in it that is imperfect. I am anxious, for that purpose, to take means to conciliate those who have paramount influence in Ireland.—(Hear, hear. ) You made great mistakes about the Charitable Bequests Bill— mistakes which I foresaw and warned you of. I told vou you committed a great error in not consulting the Boman Catholic Bishops. You consulted them on the Maynooth Bill, and You succeeded. I now warn you again, that you must obtain their support to make this plan work efficiently. Having said thus much with respect to apart of the plan, I cannot help expres sing my regret that the present condition of the University of Dublin is not modified. The Right Hon. Baronet has not told us whether he intends to affiliate the proposed colleges with the Dublin University. He referred to the 23d sect. of the Act by which fellowships were reserved exclusively for Protestants ; but there is a very important section in that Act, to which I will call the attention of the House, which has not been di rected to it. The Act contains an express provision that there may be another college subsequently founded in connexion with Dublin College. A distinction must be ob served between Dublin College and Dublin University. The Act of 1793, I say, provides that another college may be esta blished in connexion with the Dublin one, which ether was to form a part of it. Thus we may see, at once, that in 179:3, when Roman Catholics were less powerful than they are now, that even then it was contemplated to establish a college to which Roman Catholics and Protestants should hare ready access, and which would be placed in conjunction with Trinity College. Trinity College, Dublin, as it at present stands, is a great obstruction in the way of carry ing out a just, equitable, and liberal policy towards the people of Ireland. The Right Hon. Baronet adverted to the evidence of Mr. O'Connell ; but it must be recollected that that evidence was given under a very different state of circumstances to those which at pre sent exist—when the Irish Catholics were treating for a re moval of the disabilities which affected them. At the very same time that this evidence had been given, it was proposed by Lord Francis Egerton to endow the Roman Catholic priesthood, and if this had been then done, the Protestant university would have been allowed to remain undisturbed. You should not now refer to statements which were only made conditionally.—( Hear.) You did not enter into any contract with us. The Right lion. Baronet at the head of the Government distinctly declared he would enter into no compact with Roman Catholics. But might you not open Trinity College as a great national establishment without incurring the evils you apprehend. You think it would not be consistent with justice or policy to do so. I think it is not consistent with justice or policy to close it. Remember that you leave Trinity College in the enjoyment of permanent and predominant advantages. Its possessions are very large. The fellows of that college raise each about 2;0001. a year, and they have a high social position, as well from their great acquirements, as from their ample emoluments. It sends two Members to Parliament, and, in short, enjoys many other advantages above any other institution. Now, as long as it is thu s p re d om i nant, f or so long you cannot expect the Cat ho lie people will be reconciled to it. I know you will tell me that the interests of the Established Church require that it should be in some respects exclusively Protestant. How un fortunate it is that whenever a project for the amelioration of the country is devised, the Church Establishment must be flung in its way—( Bear, hear)—and encounter the projector at every step. There can Ite no doubt but these fel lowships would be eagerly struggled for by Catholici if they were open to them—that they are in the road to the highest promotion, and yet in what connexion (properly speaking) with the Ecclesiastical department ?—( Hear, hear.) \Vhen Roman Catholics are admitted to universities, they should be allowed to reach the acme of their honours, their dignities, and their emoluments—they should be allowed to pluck the golden fruits which grow on the tree of knowledge.—(Cries of " Hear, hear. ') There existed a system in that college with respect to scholarships, which is every way worthy of condemnation. A Roman Catholic enters as a sizar, and ob tains the prizes in science and the classics. After two years' study, he can only become a candidate for a scholarship by re linquishing his faith, which many, I regret to say, have done from sordid motives, and afterwards relapsed into open infi delity. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) told the Recorder for Dublin, a few nights ago, that ascendancy in Ireland was at an end ; but Trinity College, as it now stood, was an odious monument of ascendancy.—( Hear.) If they leave Trinity College as it stands, they leave it be cause of its ascendancy, and I shall ask the Government if it will be wise, if it will be politic, to do this alter the Right Hon. the Secretary for the Home Department has told them that the future Government of Ireland cannot be conducted on the same principle? What I should now wish to see is this, an equality between those professing Roman Catholic principles and the Protestants of Ireland. While I thus object to the Government policy in detail, I cannot ob ject to the general principle which they pursue, because I think it calculated to induce a more friendly feeling between the countries. I cannot, under these circumstances, with hold my meed of praise from the Government measure as far as it goes. Sir R. - PEEL said the Right Hon. Gentleman bad neither, by his speech or his intended vote, removed his impression of the course he had pursued in 1835, when he (Sir R. Peel) had said that the chief difficulty of his Government i ested with Ireland. Tfie Right Hon. Baronet had not certainly done much to remove tnat impression from his ( Sir R. Peel's) mind, when he found the Right Hon. Member for Dungar von prepared to vote with the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford, in his opposition to a measure which was intended as one of justice to the people of Ireland. In addressing him self, in the first place, to the observations which had fallen Loin the Right Hon. Member for the University of Oxford (Sir R. H. Inglis), he felt it might be asked, what was in tended by the term " educatio nal instruction ?" They had already provided ample means for the instruc tion of the poorer classes of Ireland, fur, as his Right Honourable Friend the Secretary for the Home Department had informed them that they had educated about 400,000 of the children of the poorer classes in Ireland. But they found that in Ireland there was not the same amount of academical in • struction which they had in Scotland—a country with only one third of the population. In Scotland they had five institutions for educational purposes, but in Ireland there were no such ad vantages. They had, indeed, two establishments for the pur poses of secular and religious education —the one, Trinity Col lege, Dublin, and the ether th e muc h -v ili f i ed Maynooth Col lege. In no other instance did any institution exist in Ireland for the purposes of affording such instruction as might be en couraged. by the State. Th e G overnment proposed to supply that omission, but it must be remembered that they had to deal with a country where the great majority of the people professed Roman Catholic principles—persons in the very utmost degree lippog•M to the doctrines of the Established Church. 1 And th e y p. op ose d to g i ve t h e persons professing that religion, the opporeenity of receiving the same academical education. And they proposed to do this by establishing three distinct colleges in different parts of the country. In the north the 3 proposed to build one of these colleges, where it might be ex rected that the benefits of the estabtishmeet would accrue to the members of the Presbyterian Church. They proposed also, in the south and west of Ireland, to found insti'utionS peculiarly applicable to the eecessitit a of the Roman Catholic population. His lion. Friend had said that he objected to this measure, because it did not make religious instruction a necessary part of the education of the people. He conceived that it was incumbent upon them as a, Protestant Government to maintain the integrity of the Queen's College in Dublin. but he could not concur in the policy which the Right lion. Baronet (Sir R. Inglis) advocated of laying down certain rules prohibiting the interference of Government with the youth of Ireland. If they attempted to attach weight to any system of national education, they must study the re ligious bias of the people, before they could hope to overcome the prejucl ces of the country. But his Hon. Friend asked him why he did not supply theological instruction also? Here he must give credit to his lion. Friend for the consistency he evinced in opposing the grant to Maynooth, f, , r when they proposed to supply education through that institution the Right Hon. Baronet opposes it, and said that it was opposed to the principles of true religion. He regretted to heat . the Right Pon. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon state that they ought to have consulted the Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland before they had definitely arranged their plans with re spect to these educational establishments. But the Right Hon. Gentleman might not be aware that they had done so in proposing this grant for the purposes of Roman Catholic in struction. The Right Hon. Gentleman had complained that they (the Government.) had not con-ulted them on this occa sion, and that in consequence the Government measure would certainly fail. If they had consulted the Roman Catholic Prelates, he did rot see that they were not bound to consult the ecclesias tical authorities of England also. Ard he would venture to say that if they had done so, it would be impossible to reduce to practise any general system of education. They found that in the neighbourhood of Cork, Galway, and Limerick, there were no means of educational instruction existing, and the Go vernment intended to supply that deficiency. They intended to found professorships in the different walks of science, of art, and of literature, and they would endeavour to provide the means for establishing a medical schcol in the same locality. But if they endeavoured to endow a Protestant profe sor in a locality purely Catholic, it might with justice be demanded that they should endow a Roman Catholic professor also. lie had hoped that the arrangement tacitly agreed to, would have been decided en by either party. They would be willing to allow everything for what they consid e r e d th e a d van t age o f either religion. They intended to provide apartments for those 3 - Dung persons who received religious instruction from profes sors of divinity, from clergymen connected with the religion of each pupil. When his Honourable Friend the MembiT for the University of Oxford called this measure a gigantic scheme of Godless education, he (Sir H. Peel) would prove to his lion. Friend that he had for twenty years been a party to a precisely similar system. He (Sir It. Inglis) had supported the institution of Belfast, which had been conducted on exactly the same principles, and which had met the support of many of the highest parties in the empire, as the Bishop of Down and Cashel, the Bishop of Dunmore, and the Marquis of Downshhe He had no doubt that if the House passed this measure, it would he the very best means of affording peace to Ireland, by instituting a reciprocal course of charity, which would go far to bring about that happy result, Mr. SHELL explained that he had not been aware that apartments would be provided for divinity lectures, and this certainly made a very considerable difference. The circum stance of such accommodation being provided would give great. satisfaction. Mr. SHAW said he did not mean to occupy the time of th♦ house but for a very short period ; but on a question of this sort, when the name of the institution which he represented had been introduced, and so frequently referred to, he thought he was called upon to make a few observations. He was happy to observe that a measure like this, coming from the present Government, had been so well received by the opposite party; and though he did not entirely approve of the measure, yet he did not rise for the purpose of saying that he would oppose the introduction of the measure. He agreed with the Honourable Member for Belfast, that this would be a most useful and beneficial measure for 'reload ; for, in the southern districts of that country, the middle-classes, who were Roman Catholic, would have then all the facilities of a liberal education, while the middle-classes in the north, who were Presbyterian, would have placed within their reach the enjoyment of a like advantage. But he should confess that, with regard to the question of religious education, that pre sented such a difficulty that he could not well see his way through it. In Trinity College, Dublin, persons of all reli gious denominations were admitted there for educational pur poses, and there was no necessity imposed for the residence of the pupils in the college, for they received their religious in structions from their parents or guardians, or those with whom they might happen to be located.—( Hear, hear.) He had heard the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon, but he did not think the Right Hon. Gentle man had correctly represented what he stated in the first in stance. He (Mr. Shaw) should say that the Right Hoe. Gentleman was in error as to the practice at Trinity College, and the emolument of the professors. The College was as open as it could be to Roman Catholics with respect to education, and for competition for all the offices and emoluments. Mr. SHELL—What emoluments ? Mr. SHAW wished not to be misunderstood. He did not mean the fellowships, but the professorships, of which there were eight, and one of which, that of professor of Italian, was a Roman Catholic. Then as to those "vast emoluments" that hadbeen spoken of, why, there were no such emoluments ; the emoluments were very trifling, indeed scarcely anything. It was true they had chambers, but their allowance was very small. But, on the whole, he would say that in no one point of view in which the Right Hon. Gentleman had put the question, could he (Mr. Shaw) agree that Trinity College should be thrown open to all, because it was a college that had been established for Protestant put poses exclusively. It would be utterly impossible that it could be, because, in the first place, it was impossible that the fellowships could be open to Roman Catholics, for they were obliged not only to be Protestants, but frequently to enter the Protestant Church. Then as to the Board of Seven, of which the Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken, and that some of them ought to be Roman Catholics; that Board was composed of seven of the oldest fellows in the college; their emoluments were derived from patronage in the Established Church, and would it, there fore, be fair or just that Roman Catholics should have the power of distributing that patronage ?—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Shaw) felt inclined to make some observations upon the speeches of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majdst)'s Government and of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department; but as he did not think the present was the proper tame to do so, he would reserve himself until that time did come. He would, therefore, conclude by repeating that he would not oppose the introduction of the measure, nor did he think he would at any period of its pro gress offer it any opposition. Mr. WARBURTON said he would not address one word to the House on the subject, connected as it was with Ireland, except that he had heard a good deal said of the London Uni versity, of the Senate of which he happened to be a Member, and of the management of which he had heard some observa tions that betrayed ignorance of the subject. Now, the Lon don University had no fewer than five Roman Catholic col leges connected with it, and those who presided over those col leges were candidates for all the honours of that University. There were also several other colleges connected with it, of different religious persuasions, and the superintendents also enjoyed the same privileges, and the only object of that was that the academical honours should be open to all classes. if such were the case, then, in the London university, let the country hear no more of this exclusive ness—( Hear)—and he hoped it would not be long before he should hear of the State establishing in Dublin a great univer sity, similar to the London University.—( Hear.) If they wished these new universities to flourish, they must open the secular rewards to the persons who distinguished themselves in these institutions. He sat down altogether approving of the measure of her Majesty's Government, as far as it went, and ho?ed it would be followed up. Mr. PLUMPTRE objected to the plan, as there was no re cognition of Christianity, and brought forward the fact that the Rev. Dr. Arnold, who had been connected with the Lon don University, found it necessary to withdraw from it, because there was no recognition of Christianity entertained there. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that he would not trespass upon the House, but for the expressions made use of by the Member for Dublin, who attacked the Hon. Member below him for the views which he had taken with regard to the pro priety of having the fellowships opened to the Roman Catho lics. He also wished to set him right on the point, that the entire of those who had finished their studies at the university did not become clergymen. As one who had prosecuted his studies at that university, he (Mr. O'Connell) wished to state that half of them became members of the bar. It would be far better if they adopted the system of excluding none, on account of religion, from the honours bestowed upon the suc cessful candidates at Trinity College, Dublin. It was of the greatest importance that the Government should leave nothing undone. Let them not hear of conscientious objections, which in the course of a few years they would have to set aside. Let them not wait until another little black cloud would appear in the horizon, to grant any further little concessions. He hoped, that as this measure was about to be followed up, that those educated in Cork would not be exclusively Roman Catholics, nor those educated in Belfast be exclusively Presbyterians, but to see all seats receiving , common education in all the colleges. He thought that the evil was that of establishing these institutions apart from Trinity College, Dublin. If they did this, they would have a prejudice raised ageinst them. They would be called pro vincial institutions, things of modern date ; and those persons who would be educated there would have to go and finish their education in Trinity College, Dublin, or at Oxford. He was anxious not to occupy the House further than by saying, that when the Bill should be brought in he hoped that it would be found to be one which would give general satisfaction in Ireland. Mr. SHAW said a few words in explanation. He would not now enter into the consideration of this measure, reserving to himself the right of taking any course he might think fit on a future occasion. repugnancesanetnan u ton university measure, iv iu e a r as n d upon i t had been ' r brought HOPEforwardfe felt g r e t a o t io the established.principles n t m h e e n Universitycome of to London, theco h n a e d i ü b s e i o e n n that it was necessary for the pacifiaation of Ireland, and for the improvement of the moral and social condition of that country to Rieke the magnificent grant of 26,0001. a year to the College of Maynooth, and 118,000/. to these three colleges, he eould implore them not to stop there. There were other parts of her Majesty's dominions in which the religion of the people was not adequately cared for. Let them look to the retiring, quiet, and unobtrusive clergymen of Wales. Let them not turn a deaf ear to the respectful petitions of the Churchmen of 'tv a !„ . Those petitions did not come from meetings held on andthebliollyoafl Tara, or from Conciliation Hall, but from peaceful subjee's. Mr. ROEBUCK aaid so far as he understood the plan of the Right Hon. Baronet it was intended that Trinity College youth for. h h oo o elul utepthlghrdeoeosrpfeowems were educationatre ie i ro n ynt o f r or ewlsli ttlgoaihicfnoehdueßsduhobdameerdttnaawtonbi between n o eec n of einnanatthhtsioueorbni Catholics, oe whiles f t r n t the and h , t ehe educationse 11 a I d a d y n ti ( o t :atn ofl it N ted ow to he th eo e nf l e i s o s u e s d e that s not sufficient to remove the evil which Government appeared desirous of getting rid of. The flight Honourablead pronouncedßaio n et the Member f or the University of f Oxford had the measure a " Gigantic scheme of Godless education,' but it appeared to him the Right Hon. Baronet had made a last effort to defend a tyrannical power, and he therefore trusted the Governm en t wou l d treat it with the contempt it merited. Sir H. WINSTON BARRON, in supporting the motion, said that he had witnessed examples of liberality in Protestant countries which Protestant England might imitate, if not with pride, certainly with advantage. He believed that Holland was the most Protestant country in Europe, for he had found Catholic professors at Utrecht, and a Jew professor at Haarlem. He had once had a conversation with a professor in a foreign college, who expressed his surprise that liberal and Protestant England had in her universities such exclusive, or he would rather say excluding tests—as the universities of Cambridge and Oxford had. In the empire of Austria which was the most Catholic country in Europe, there had recently been an endowment of a Protestant theological chair. 311 the a c.O. tempts that had en made to compel !he Iris th h pe pol _ form to the religion of the State had failed, and e only way to _ _ •aael _t es:ai t A t ifv promote the social and religious peace of WO was to make the institutions of the country har monise with the religious feelings of the pecple.. No nation in Europe was so deficient of academical institu • tio• s ae Ite!atirt. Holland had a rpu?ation nearly equal tee Ireland, and she had three universities ; Prussia, with a po pelation of thirteen and a half millions, had eight univer sities ; Bavaria, with a population nearly four millions, had three institutions of this kind; in France there was one uni versity to cv. ry million and a lia:f of the population; while It - el:n.l had only one to eight mil:ions. There ought to be at • • least five or six instead of one for such a population as Ireland. He was persuaded that many of the evils of Ireland had arisen irom the want of education, and hence the Govern ment proposition should have his hearty support. It shoed& command his warmest support, as he looked upon it as sv measure well calculated to improve the condition of Ireland. Mr. ACLAND rose to defend the lion. Member for the University of Oxford; (Sir Robert Inglis) from the attacks blame the G er. which had been ma d e upon hi m b y the H on. M em b er f or Bath. He o.lr. Acland) w a s w illi ng t o ta k e hi s s h a re' ref the a ttach ed ev t n o ent hi l s ,rop ß o i s g it h i t en H as on a . g F ig r a ie n n t d i; in iiis charging scheme of Godless education." He was not prepared to adopt , the words his of Hon. Friend, but in the spirit he was agreed. He believed the Government were perfectly honest in the plan which they had brought forward, for he had never seen reason to think them otherwise in any part of con duct, their g eneral but he regretted that they had not paid more attention to the' religious feeling; of the country, and acted less in a liberal and latitudinarian decided opinion on the measure, but he promised to give it his' patient attention and consideration. He sympathised more with the seund and practical views that had been expressed by the Roman Catholic members who had spoken on the question, than in the liberal views of the other supporters of the mea sure. He doubted the • soundness of the principle of educating students of different religious persuasions together in one semi nary, and was of opinion that inore good would be done by each religious persuasion havirg a collage of its own. He. was further of opinion that a system of mere lectures like that proposed coal scarcely be considered education, but vroulef rather lead to what. ColerPge had nailed tt Lecture Bazaars,"' an! do little towards the effectual ealucation of the people of n-land. Lord PALNIERSION said he was glad to find that the Government had proposed the present measure is the spirit. they had done, and, considering the state of Ireland, he did, not think that they could proceed in any other way than that which they did. It was objected that no professors were to be appointed to teach certain theological opinions. Would they establish one professorship 01 theology ? If one, was he to be a Protestant professor? And if so. did they suppose that the Roman Catholics would send their children to those col lege's?—( Hear, hear. ) If the professor of theology was to be a Reiman (athol c, did they suppose that the Pretestan s t , en the other hand, would send their children there?—(Hear, heat.) Would they have professors of both religions? If so, what became of thesystem of mixed education.— ( Hear. ) 'that would defeat the design of cementing the two religions b r relations of mutual harmony, which was the object of the measure. ( Hear. ) A theological civil war would be estab lished in those colleges and universities, instead of their be- ' coming, as was expected, the foundation of religious peace.-- (La,ighter. ) There is no other alternative but that there . should be no theological profe, , sor of one creed er the other, • but that both parties should receive theological instruction in academies exclusively devoted to theological purposes. That • was the only mode in which they could proceed unless they could have the students lodged and housed to gether, as in Oxford and Cambridge, but such a system would entail such an amount of expenditure that it weuldbe out of the qlsestion to think that Parliament would - incur it.—( Hear, hear.) He had himself experience of both systems, because he was three years at the university of Edin burgh, where the same system was adopted which would . be adopted in respect of the Lash colleges ; anti he afterwards went to Cambridge, where a different system was pursued. And when persons talked of those colleges not having a theological - chair, he would appeal to the Right lion. Gentleman opposite • the Chancello r o f th e E xc h equer , w h o was w ith him (Lord Palmerston) in Cambridge, to have the goodness to explain to . tiie House is hat was:the kind of theological education which in their time was given at Cambrii!ge.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Why it was well known that those who, from the accident of their birth, were entitled to the degree of M.A. at a certain age, were not examined in theology. If that was so, it scat taking somewhat too large a I betty with expressions to heir • nate those colleges theological schools, standing in that respect on the same footing as Cambridge. He, therefore,' thought that. Government adopted toe only plan which was applicable to the peculiar circumstances of Ireland. anti he hailed it as the foundation, first of all, of the great moral improvement. in the middle classes of the Irish people, and as the foundation of social concord between the members of the diffe rent creeds who composed the population of that country. - But he agreed with those who thought that this was only the foundation of a more complete plan. He thought either that . the three colleges shoull be united in one university in Dublin, or that Trinity College should be thrown open to all classes, which he thought might be done without losing its distinctive character as an exclusively Protestant college.—(Laughter.) • The present measure would be incomplete unless at was combined with some arrangement of this kind.—( Hear, bear.) It would be a matter of regret to him if this measure should meet with any considerable opposition. It was not like the Maynooth grant, where certatn religious objections might be urged against it, but it was a measure which had for its object the education and instruction of the Catholic laity of Ire land, and if it met with any material opposition, he thought the effect it would produce upon the minds of the Irish people would be most injurious to this country. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished to put the Noble Lord right with regard to one of his statements which was riot quite so correct as the Noble Lord appeared to think. The Noble Lord had stated that at the University of . Cambridge no theological examination took place in the case of students who did not propose taking holy orders, but so far from this being the case, he could assure the Noble Lord that in every instance students were examined upon portions of the . Gospel. Mr. WARBURTON remembered that, at all events, theo logical examination, except in the case of students who in. tended taking holy orders, was not considered of much import. ante at Cambridge. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he had felt it to be his duty to oppose the Government on the Maynooth grant, because be was averse to all connexion between Church and State. This mea sure, however, was solely of an educational character, and us it appeared to him highly calculated to benefit, all classes oldie Irish people, he should give the Government his hearty support.—Leave was then given to bring in the BilL SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the Speaker do leave the chair for the House going into a Com mittee of Supply. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE rose with a view of shortly calling thee. attention of the House to the petition of Eliza Price, which he presented yesterday, and which was printed with the votes that morning. He had since made inquiries into the &Bev.. Cons contained is the petition, and he regretted to say that they were substantially correct. The Hon. Member then re- - pealed the circumstances of the petition, which have already appeared in The Sun, and concluded by moving as an amend ment to the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the petition be referred to a Select Committee. The Select Committee having power to report their opinion and the evi. desire to the House. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that, in consequence of the notice which he had already received from the Hon. Gentle man opposite, he instituted an inquiry into the case, and he found that the all gations which were made turned out to be partl a true. It was highly improper in the magistrate to issue a warrant when the proper course would be to issue a sum mons. At all events. he thought the offence was a bailable one, asd he did not think that issuing a warrant was a proper course. The statement of the petition and the statement of the magistrate were entirely at variance, and he thought that the matter ought not to be al lowed to rest as it was. Further inquiry was necessary. thought that the lion. Gentleman and others, from what had been stated, would think it highly inexpedient to prosecute the matter further in the House. Mr. WAKLEY said that he should be glad to bear the answer from Mr. Briscoe, the magistrate, to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. The brutal conduct of the informer was owing to the misconduct of the magistrate, when be refused to act on the request of the woman, an assault having been com mitted in his presence, but at the request of tti e e informer Holt issued a warrant for the woman's apprehens i such coa conduct conceive a more gross case, and if they allow ed on the part of the magistrate what wo uld they have from a constable? It the allegations of the woman were correct, be main on thought that the magistrate should n ot be allow ed to re • the Bench. stated that further in. Mr. DUNCOMBE—As it had b een quiry would be inst it uted , he begged leave to withdraw the amendment which he had prooosed. THE MEDICAL BILL. Mr. WAKLEY said that, in consequence of a statement made the other n ig ht , he would ask the Right Hon. Baronet if tie would say that the Committee of the National Associa., tion had been informed of the terms on which the incorpora tion would be connected with his measures in the Bill, and whether he had their consent to these provisions ? Sir J. GRAHAM did not understand the question. Mr. WAKLEY then repeated it. Sir J. GRAHAM said that he did net recollect making the statement to which the Hon. Member referred. If the Hon. Gentleman would put it in a form in which he could under stand it, he would answer it. Mr. WAKLEY said he thought the question was clearly' put on both occasions. If the Right Hon. Gentleman would . state that the charter of incorporation would not be executed soon, he would not say anything about it. The House then went into Committee of Supply, and voted a SIM of 50,000/. on account for the public service. The House then resumed, and the other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at half past Twelve o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS. - - TI UUSDAY. MAY 8. The Irish Great Western Railway (Dublin to Galway) Bill was presented and read a first time. Standing Orders Committee,—Resolutioiis reported; 1. " That, in the case of the Midland Railway Branches petition, the Standing Orders ought not to be dispensed with " 2. " That, in the case of the Bermondsey Improvement (No. 2) petition, the Standing Orders ought to be digpensed with :—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their 3. " That, in the case of the Kingstown and Bray Railway petition, the Standing Orders ought not to be dispensed with. 4. " That, in the case of the Taff Vale Railway petition for leave to present a petition for a Bill, the Sessional Order ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their petition accordingly." i. "That, in the case of the Whitehaven and Furness Junction Railway petition, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be permittod to proceed with their Bill." ti. " That, in the case of the Skerries Harbour petition, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with :—That the var. 'ties be permitted to proceed with their Bill." 7. "'Chat, in the case of the Liverpool, Ormskirk, and Preston Railway petition, the Standing Orders ought not IA be dispensed with." Second, fourth, fifth, and sixth resolutions agreed to. 4.8 Report to lie on the table. Whitchaven and Furness Railway,—Report from Select Committee on Standing Orders read; Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Stanley, Mr. Irton, and Mr. Matthias Att wood. Great Western Railway (Ireland) (Dublin, Mullingar, and Athlone),—Petition for dill reported, and Bill ordered to be brought in. by Viscount Palmerston, Mr. Tuite, Mr. Lefroy, and Mr. Barry Baldwin. Birmingham and Gloucester Railway ( Wolverhampton Line),--Report from Select Committee on Standing Orders read; Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Dugdale, Mt. Xewdegate, and Mr. Spooner. wa ß y i ,_ rm n ii e ig p l o ia rt rir fr a o n n l to G s l eb o le u e c c e bt s rc t o c uo r gi f ihi l :, read; Bill ordered Comm ittee on y t o e n r u p .S r t e . a v D n i a d a t g i i n o g n ale o , B r StokeNewd n eg i n a g t aam Branch,d a nAir.d n S I i p o idnt r t Gloucester troe.Bir on Standing r. Railway p u sda i(e,Golltor Orders r e a s i ; ree t E dd ti t4oi ; Midland Railways Junction),—Re. part ordered part fro from Select ro C u o g m h b rought ancl•Mr. Spooner. ‘s\ l ice` .~ N N is pt ,i 0 be siC to xl* Simi Tol' (t.) ,y - , elo a' le his te ler 0 F