The Sun. — London, England, 1844-03-05 00:00:00

;it unr u ; ntion of hoar Duke v`, card an ant I 1 3trol l g er not I' nt. l! t3 of the e vil No ls nove f " )r to 511°' f r or o 1. he per l t i , ris" p• 1 11 iiier the the ;ler 1 me la ll bSiJ sew - in 2 aY 11 a of Great Britain, who, in each year since the of January, 1839, have suffered corporal pa- and imprisonments ; showing the nature of ti e o t ff_e_ i nces, in clas ses , f ur w hi c h suc h corpora l punish ben or mprisonment has been awarded, and the num the , 11 1 each class ; stating also the greatest number and ftit Lo west numbe r of lashes inflicted on any . person in ch fi ne Year also, the lon ges t an d s h or t es t p erio d o f con ter ! tie nt awarded as p un i s h men t, an d th e average J r lod of c on fi nement for each class in each year. the number of soldiers who, since the Ist day of i na -- , ll arY, 1839, h ave su ff ere d corpora l pun i s h ment or „„r" s onment, and whether either corporal punishment ZunPrisonment has been inflicted on the same person fi 01 than once, specifying how often it bas been so in -474 and distinguishing numbers in regiments in the i neL es and possessions of her Majesty from regiments sr 0 ,, 1448 in Great Britain and Ireland. Of the number . rr? ral punishments inflicted in the Royal Navy, in of the years 1839 and 1840 (in continuation of Par- I .ltarY paper, No. 242, of session 1841).—Agreed to. Itr err POOR-LAW BILL. to tb • — '". I, EY COCHRANE begged to put a question , n 1": T ltight Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for the re c d - ' - 'ePartment. The Right Hoe. Gentleman would s °llea that when the Poor-law Bill went through its 1:• e°11d r eading, it was understood that an early day stated be fixed for discussing its provisions. It was now be that the discussion of the principle of the Bill was t i; ae deferred till after Easter. He begged to ask who 7. t hat was th e f ac t? J. GRAHAM said the House would remember • t hat the Factories Bill was introduced before the. New i ot ;_;law Bill in the present session, and that it was also need at an early period of the last session. The n a ,, T er ries Bill st oo d now f or F r id a y. - H e wou ld sugges t t o 1J i 1 that th e or d er should be read for the purpose 1 J ! s ellargi_ng it, and fixing the Bill for Monday next. t h e House had gone into Committee on that Bill, e Could not aw Bill fix a day for going into Committee on the ' f l P oor -l. 4 a the motion of M r . FIELDEN leave of absence was e n to General Johnstone until the 20th day of April, a ccount of ill-health. b . ROMAN. CATHOLIC CHARITIES. ro ast O 'CONNELL legged to ask the Right Hon. Ba platl' (Sir Robert Peel), whether it was in the contem csiZl of the Government to bring in any Bill in the '0,41 of the present session to alter or amend the law s;,, tsPect to Roman Catholic charities ? he ROBERT PEEL said he entertained a confident is he that her Majesty's Government would be prepared so Pee Course of the esent session to bring in a Bill "carrying h at subject, into effect the object stated by 4h ate Jesty s Government in the course of the recent B a • O'CONNELL inquired whether the Right :„" n t had any o bj e ction to - his bringing in a Bill with a ret to Ro man C at h o li c c h ar iti e s. All he desired Mid p 1 b ring in a Bill, in order that it might be printed the 6„ ac ed in the hands of Members. He did not wish Si R ' PEEL to give their sanction to it. rEEL said, that if the Hon. Gentleman gave it t h - e of the Bill, her Majesty's Ministers would not feel stet!. duty to oppose it. riex t t h . ° 'CONNELL then gave notice, that on Monday the 6 e Would move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend '414 t - : ( S, relating to Roman Catholic charities in Ireland, ofd t " disposition of property left for the purposes m an Catholic worship. Si,ItdDA.TION OF PROPERTY (IRELAND). it I ,; aQ ",t NRAM NORREYS wished to know whether incp a r, t " intention of the Government to make any isv - Z . With respect to the present system of valuation law - i e ad Ss applicable to the purposes of the new poor- Sir tha.t country. B tkaa; j4 NlES GRAHAM said there was an under- Wish -n gt lan session, that if it should be the general th e v °f the Members for Ireland in that House, and of iNtitish Peers in the other House of Parliament, to tL ilte an inquiry into the operation of the poor-law w ' Present session, her Majesty's Government would i toC i e rl to that wish. To this statement he adhered. uert l u - h er inZ, however, the large number of Irish Mem thou - I ' 4 ' were now attending the assizes in Ireland, he it ‘vc. gut the matter would undergo amore fair discussion if kibi e re , Postponed until after Easter. With respect to the refit 'valuation to which the Hon. Baronet had '-ota,„"L , her Majesty's Ministers had been lately in liter oill ;, 111:I ; ieation with Mr. Griffiths, with a view to an 44 ti in the present system, and the adoption of 1 "tl aod `lral system of tenement valuation throughout t . riq' t , rI YTERIAN MARRIAGES (IRELAND). '° ' t i l i „ -- I,BERT FERGUSON wished to put a question res o ecretary of State for the Houle' Department, Ir eland,. ; _ in , a subject of great interest in the north of meant the question of Presbyterian mi . ir • 'idol The question had been brought uncler the ju frokt consideration of the House of Lords, in a case Ptli ttn til ,, e Courts of Ireland. The House !night not, , c) 1 , 11 hli b e aware that a very considerable difference of sqN, 6- . existed upon the matter among the judges, I the `l,alf.d.the law Lords having given an opinion as to Z'4l3 Navin of these marriages, and three other law t ' h arri a ; av ing r given an opinio . n that they were not valid '„ es • he question which he put was, whether } i " 4; 8 any objection to laying those judgments on t• thde of the House, and her the Government up their minds as to whether the Government up their minds to whether they would pro -14()ee e ,Y e gislation upon the subject, or how they would 1%11 elv T MES GRAHAM said the judgments of the ,'ode DIES had been printed for the use of the other ,7 4 ade fA e l, Parliament, ,and if a communication were alma t aat House, there would be no difficulty in ob -7, ' n ' t eon of those judgments. With respect to the ; • , s e tl as d luestio Y n put by the Hon. Baronet the facts of , 11 (1 4). e were as he stated them. As yet no unanimous ellt had been pronounced, and considering that t here Was a variance of opinion amongst t he six law " e presumed that the effect would be that the th • - A - ge B would be affirmed. In that case legislation 'tl4 s ubject would be indispensable. He had every N t ° belie ve that the Committee of the other House ▪ tilkl llt tnent, to which the Hon. Baronet had adverted, be re-app o i n t e d. Of course be could not tell how sef, - " l niittee would proceed, but he had no doubt that N eka i e en considerati on wou ld b e g i ven t o th e facts of )4 1 . (11-T RT OF REQUESTS (BIRMINGHAM.) ‘et. W. O. STANLEY sa id i t wou ld b e i n t h e recol tl?u of the Rouse that a trial had lately taken place iTham, i n w hi c h two pr i soners , name d J ames s Noi e „ann th John Tayl r were charged before the Re assaultingo; police-constable of the name of 1 4" -o utterfield, who had been called in to quell a ,N ta - : al lee which had taken place in the Court of Re- Rohe th P: . ison, in Birmingham, the two persons charged gaga ssault being at that time confined for debt. t pt ion he wished to put *to the Right Hon. Baro e : 1 11 , °Me Secretary, was, whether his attention had 134 ed to thi s t r i a l ? an d also whether his attention 1 1 , 5 r titt h led to the state of the prison attached to the -. quests in Birmingham ? and whether he e o CDoo d Ilsent to lay on the table of the House any cor 's el lee that had taken place between himself and 4it ° , lll ,er of Birmingham ? 2 , spe,.7 4 AHAM said that immediately upon seeing iint u '' of the trial in the newspapers, he sent . down 11IsPeetor to investigate the case. That laves- N luid up on ,taken place, and a report had been made, 11 4 tu at report he (Sir James Graham) had been it, ) '%;„ B Pc`ndencewi th the Birmingham authorities. 114 11 ,1)letr n e spondence was not yet completed, but on its IQ or: he should have no objection to lay it on the s ta 7 th t t t -o ,Rouse. Having said so much he would just li t "4g.d Home Secretary's power was limited to I, ll tera wl linspectors and to receiving reports. He had w• 1 0wer. I t iLtht . • STANLEY wished also to know if the ' 4 lttr„ / n• Baronet had directed his attention to all fir . B °, ll s throughout the United Kingdom? e. 41 - 4 -r[AM said a general inspection had taken ) i ii, _it k , PAUPER LUNATICS. tl i c qg i_f E RGUSON wished to put question to the .I),', t0,' 4 ,,_ the Secretary for Ire l a n d, a with reference to l'ls'it ,Igement of criminal and pauper lunatics in - "'llt b to - ,_Re wished to know w hether any measure was tr ',Tas c i b u,?,. proposed on the su b j ect. j 14'n's o r t4 t , l oT said, that in the course of the recess t o no Report of the Com lei tt , Consider this subject, mittee appointed last had been sent to each q,' pers'anatic asylum in Ireland , with a request that ei, obe h • IV °pi ll . aving ekarge of suc h as ylums should give l%,"" 1 1% 1/ I % l s of the comparative merits of the different 1 1,, * ih p.ed:by the Committee.- These Reports were ' ,, . ho ped hands of her Majesty's Government ; and '' v th l4 ' at no very distant period, to able to in '' ' 1 ": e --- ,,?9• Baronet of the conclusion to which the 41 -' had arrived. ? El t he POOR-LAWS. Iq t it , r. ll'or,kotion for going into . Committee of Supply, erettt4JRWICK rose and said that he had heard ' hy 08.4lPpointment the answer which had been ark ' -1),,, t- ' /tight Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the 1004-Parttaent to his Hon. Friend the Member for VlNed(lift Cochraneas to the time at which it was 'f il tk e tli e t9 n.g? into Co m mittee on the Poor-law Bill. tll ''Ettlin,'‘lgnt Hon. Baronet moved the second reading 1 0 1 40 " 1. ,' he (Mr. Borthwick) did not oppose itspLiss tkl.ttiti ( E il rs ga th at stage sub silentio, on the unders tan di n g N''ti k - " fh p°, rtunity would be afforded of discussing and 0 1 , 4 1 Pl' e "Ali into its details, and also of discussing its oh k" rei,,_ ll eßi ht Hon. Baronet now proposed to go nr x , '4\ qbtaet.i. on g the Factories Bill on Monday nex t. as Ile • allicArdiorthwick) confessed that the time v i v ro. t4tpx•eocu when it would not be presumptuous or of if‘ 111 teN, 14 him to remind the Right Hon. Baronet Act_ ttl k .l i alit ts which were affected by the Poor-law ktful"te. u S ay the most important interests in this great _ I'",, tllion.4l,e said that no time ought to be lost in re 'ti k . ",,". 1t, t 7.„ 1 ,, 5 'e New Poor-law Bill, and he hoped the Right 'li t i ll tlsio l ,""t would not allow Easter to pass before t he h !lin") kb; °I the new Bill took place, for he (Mr. Bort - 4 11::'t a. lv ' s hould that discussion be so delayed, th . at s! N I `•ssioll would pass over before the Bill would be ti k 'i t Tt• gdered . - SHAMII/44Ehhe.11a,111 could assure the Hon. Gentleman 4',l 4 Ct 11,,-4„ sincere a respect for the time of the !Ik . o, ahli"," lion- Gentleman himself, and, therefore, i, , i ; h e i;,' as brief as possible. He could assure him ti,l,er(los'B:lnfolvfng, 41 t , o'sior l 'i ; ' lO izteans depreciated the importance of a as it did, the interests of the most tll 4 4'b ro ad most important class in this country. He,. I ,,Eti tt I htt e d`'Y' l ially joined the Hon. Gentleman inlioping '44tePossihfe's,enasion would be entered into with the 413 161' wei,;"eillY• Still, there was another important 14 '1-.. -° Ylb e , - ,ng for discussion, and that was, the ‘4 l 'toe 41 ' of child in factories. He appealed to 4 It q se wh et , child ren . iNt,,as th c , ~her, on a former occasion, the principle - th full - -41t t ''' bees - get ails of the Poor-law Amendment Bill ) 4 '4114 t o trit „. y discussed in that House ? He thought -111 andue t o '" expedient course to pursue, therefore, 'Ntl thengo through the Committee on the Factory .i lk llQ La, to have it printed and circulated through tEtslitteelli4tning districts, and after that to go into t%• • 110„' 51 1 th e d ote % 11,Tat„ w i sh e d e Poor-la . w Bill. she 4 41 . 1 4i , t itt , Ati eovvonletlhieto know if there would be Factories Bill ? 4M said the Bill would go through Committee, and in Committee he would be ready to listen to any alterations that might be proposed. He should then propose that the Bill, with the alterations in Committee, should be reprinted, not for re-committal, but in order that it might be circulated throughout the manufacturing districts. After that was done, he should propose to take the discussion on the details of the Poor law Amendment Bill. THE RIVER PLATE. Mr. EWART wished to know if the Right Hon. Ba ronet. at the head of .her Majesty's Government would, on Thursday or Friday next, be. prepared to answer a question as to whether he could hold out any hope of a conclusion to the unfortunate state of affairs- which at present prevailed in Monte Video and the surrounding country, and whether any measures had been taken to secure British property therein ? Sir R. PEEL said he would give all the information in his power whenever the Hon. Gentleman should think fit to put his question. SUPPLY, - On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, Mr. WILLIAMS rose, and after apologising for the shortness of the notice he had given, said he had been greatly astonished on looking — over the estimates, at the vast amount of force which it was proposed to maintain, as well as the enormous sum of money pro posed to keep, it up. He found that the ntimber of, men proposed this year was larger than in any year since 1815, at the time of the battle of Waterloo. lie must con fess when he looked at the tranquil state of Great Britain at the present moment, that this fact did strike him with great astonishment. The number of men pro posed for the efficient service of the country was 129,667, to which were added 10,000 pensioners, for whom provision was made in the present statement ; artillery and engineers, 8, 1 811; marines on shore, 6,000; the Irish police—he took the number as stated last year, and he understood that they had since been increased -9,000; making altogether an effective military force, capable of being called into action at any moment, of 163,458 men. This was in the twenty-eighth year of peace too, and at a time when ber Majesty had announced from the throne that sbe was at peace with all nations of the world. Now some persons, who had not seen the. Irish police force, would doubt that it was a military force. He had, however, seen it, and he would confidently say that he had never beheld a finer or a more efficient body of men. Before the Committee of the House of Lords on the.lrish constabulary force, a letter was put in in evidence, written by Major Brown, its present military commissioner. He said, " They are one of the most noble corps that ever were seen % and I am satisfied they are equal to, and will do, anything. I wish I was out of Dublin at the head of them, for there is not a man amongst them that would not arrest the Pepe or the Archbishop of Canterbury."—(Loud laughter.) This force, let it be remembered, the Lord Lieutenant had the power to increase when he liked, and to any extent he liked.—(A voice—" No, no.") He begged pardon—that power was vested in him by the 6th Wm. IV., cap. 12, sec. 13. That Act gave to the Lord Lieutenant the power to increase that force to any extent that he liked, to draw for the money to support that increase, and to enforce a summary application to the grand juries of Ireland for payment. So much for the efficient force of the country. Now for what was called the non-efficient. The number of yeomanry under this- head was 14,263 ; of militia on half-pay, 6,000 ; of general and other officers, 4,574; of private soldiers, 51,777 (deducting 10,000 for pensioners enrolled under the late Act); of retired ar tillery, 8,586; of marines, 6,000; of metropolitan police. 4,390; and of borough and county police, 7,000. Now all these men, inefficient as they were called, could be armed, He had himself seen policemen who were sent down into South Wales standing at the Court-house, armed with drawn swords, where heretofore the service was in variably done by the sheriff's officers, with their javelins. Now here, in this non-efficient branch of the public service, was to be found above 100,000 men, which, added to the efficient service, made a grand total of 266,000 men. Now he asked the House if that was an amount of force which could be justified in the present state of the country? With the privation and suffering which still existed to so lamentable a degree, and with the country as tranquil as possible, they could not justify such establishments. Eight millions sterling had been added by the income impost to the taxes of the country, and he could tell the Government that it was impossible, if they asked for such votes of men and money as they proposed to do—it would, he said, be impossible for the Government to keep faith with the people by the repeal of the income-tax at the end of the third year, as by their own promise they were bound to do.—(A laugh.) Now, was there any thing in the state of this country, or in the relations of this country , with Foreign Powers, to justify the Government in de manding more men than were asked in the years 1822 and 1823 ? He would take the average of the last 24 years—from 1820 to 1843—and compare it with the number of men demanded for the present year. The average amount for each one of those years was in round numbers 108,000 men. Compare this with the present time, and there was an excess in round numbers of 33,000 men during the present year over every one of the last twenty-four years. When he saw such an increase, he felt bound to tell the Government it was their duty to show the grounds for, and prove the absolute necessity of, this vast augmentation. When he (Mr. Williams) first took up the estimates, he naturally expected to find a reduction in them; he was sadly deceived. The number of men voted last year was 129,400. He and others objected at the time to the vote • and the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) stated the difficulty which at the moment was in reducing the large amount of force in China, and he further stated, that though he considered the amount he asked for absolutely necessary, at the same time he proposed to effect a reduction of 5,700 men, which would bring the strength of the army down in round numbers to 123,000 men. Now there was no pretence whatever for not acting up to what had been promised, for we were at peace with foreign Powers, and if there were a few more men in Ireland, there were so many the less in England, which was as tranquil as it well could be. Again too, there was no decrease in the cost of the army. Last year, the amount was 6,225,0001 in the present year, it was 5,984,000/. ; the difference in the amount not being a reduction, but a carrying over to another de partment—the commissariat. And here he must do the Gallant Officer (Sir Henry Hardinge) an act of justice, in saying that the way in which the accounts were pre pared did him infinite credit; they were clear, simple, and intelligible, and . he wished every other department of the Government would take an example from his. — (Loud cries of Hear, hear.) Now, in his opinion, these accounts ought to be referred to a Select Committee. If that were done, he doubted very much if the Govern ment would be able to make out a case for such demands upon the public purse. Look at the Foot Guards, con sisting of 5,253 men, at a cost to the country of 58,400/. mare than what the same number of men in other regi ments required. He did not understand what was called the stock purse in these favoured regiments. 9,257/. was given to the Guards, but he did not find it given to any other corps; and there was a special table allowance and other gratuities, amounting altogether to 58,000/. He said not a word about the Life Guards out of respect to her Majesty -- he merely alluded to them. But it was different with the Foot Guards, the partiality for which had a tendency to produce great dissatisfaction among the officers of the line. He greatly deprecated the system of giving colonelcies to generals, who never, perhaps, saw the regiments to which they were appointed, and who, most improperly, as he thought, made considerable sums from the clothing of their regiments. He did not wish to see merit and services go without just and ample reward, but he wished to see it rewarded directly, as in the navy, and not by such unworthy means as that of clothing regiments. Again, why should the privates of the Guards get a penny a day more than the men of the line ? The men in the Guards ought, in his opinion, to be chosen from other regiments, for their services and good conduct, and they would then have a body of men that would be looked up to by the whole service, and would be a pride to the country. Reverting to the subject of the large sums made by colonels from the clothing of these regi ments, he asked the house to look at that noble corps, the artillery, which was clothed by the Government, and not by its colonel. See how superior was the cloth they wore, how much better their clothes fitted, how far more commanding was their appearance. He contended that there was no fair or regular rule in the different corps of the army, either in pay, dress, or service. Why, for instance, should not regiments of the line, after en during the burning sun of India, and the bitter frosts of Canada, be entitled to take their comfortable service in London in their turn, and allow the guards to reap some of the honours they had left behind them ?—(A laugh.) Again, how was it that no one, unless closely connected with thenristocracy, or possessed' of great influence in the House of Commons, was permitted to get a com mission in the Guards? The next point he wished to refer to was that lumber known as the yeomanry cavalry. He was satisfied, if he could only get a Committee of that House, the yeomanry cavalry would very quickly be abolished. Why, the fact was, that in any place where there was a yeomanry corps, they could not go into a single shop or house, where they would not see the landlord with a large pair of mustachios on his upper lip, serving his customers.—(Laughter.) He had witnessed such things himself at Harrowgate, in Yorkshire, and he believed it was general. This force had lever been of any use, and could not be ; if any outbreak was to take place, could the thought be entertained, for one moment, of bringing them out to assist the civil force. He was happy that the Government had had the good sense not to make use of them.—(Hear, hear.) Ile had now stated various points with regard to these estimates, which he thought ought to be considered by a Committee, and he could point out a great number of their extravagancies, but he would not fatigue the House by doing so. It was true the people were in a better state, and there was not so much depression in trade, but he was afraid that the present improved state of things was not of a lasting character. He called upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to be led away by the present cheapness of money, as it had not been produced by trade, but in a great measure by the pay ment of light gold into the Bank. The Government, in his opinion, ought to be careful not to make estimates upon the present prosperous state of the Bank, but they should look forward to times of trouble and difficulty, which would as surely come as the darkness followed the light. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite had pro mised them that they should not have the income-tax beyond next year. Sir R PEEL—I never made any such promise. Mr. WILLIAMS said that the Right Hon. Baronet had held out to that House and to the country that the income-tax was only required for three years to bring into a healthy state the finances of the country. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that these esti mates should be referred to a Select Committee of the House. If any objection was taken to this motion, he would not divide the House upon it, but content himself with having made the statement he had done. Sir H. HARDINGE trusted that the Hon. Member would not consider any remarks which he might make as discourteous towards him. He was anxious to answer all the points the Hon. Member had brought forward, but he thought the - best opportunity of doing so was in a Committee of Supply. With regard to the Com mittee Which the Hon. Member had moved for with re spect to the clothing of the army, it was only necessary for him to observe that a Committee had sat upon that subject, and it was considered by that Committee that the clothing , of the army could be better performed under the supervision of the colonels of each regiment than by any general order. With respect to the forces to be kept up in the colonies a Committee had also sat upon that subject, and at the present moment there was a smaller force in all the colonies than was recommended by that Committee. As to the yeomanry cavalry he thought that subject could be much better discussed in a Com mittee of Supply. Mr.. WILLIAMS then withdrew his motion. On the question that the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply, be read, Mr. H. BAILLIE wished to know whether there was any intention on the part -of the GOvernment to bring the subject of military pensions under the consideration of the House. If the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer an swered in the affirmative, he would leave the subject in his hands and not-proceed with his motion. Sir H. HARDINGE said that the question was one of considerable importance. At the present moment the Government were collecting a vast variety .of useful in formation by Which more accurate data could- be ob tained, and by which Government could come to a more accurate opinion. The course that the Government were now pursuing was only following the footsteps of the preceding Government. He could assure his Hon. Friend, without pledging himself to anything, that as soon as the information the Government was collecting was completed, it was his intention to bring the whole übject under the consideration of the House. Lord HOWICK felt no small surprise and sorrow at the answer that had been given by the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer to the question that had been put to him. He thought that the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman ought to have been in a situation to have stated some de cided course that was intended to be adopted by the Government, considering that he had been nearly two years and a half in office. The answer he had made was calculated to raise expectations, which, if not fulfilled, might be attended with the worst results. He (Lord Howick) had some little experience in the office that was now filled by thellight Hon. and Gallant Officer, and from that experience he was sure that there' could not be any difficulty in giving the information required. —(Hear, hear.) The House and the country, he thought, had reason to complain of the conduct of the Right Hon.. Gentleman. His manly and straightforward course would have been to have stated at once the course the Government intended to pursue.—(Hear.) Sir HENRY HARDINGE did not consider himself entitled to the taunts of the Noble Lord. He had stated that he believed the course the Government were about to pursue was in accordance with the proceedings of the late Government, and he came to that conclusion from a letter the Noble Lord himself had left in the War-office. That letter recommended the adoption of the course the Government were now pursuing. Lord HO WICK said that the Right Hon. Gentleman's answer might have been well-founded if it had been last year, or the year before. With respect to the letter to which the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer had referred, it was not with reference to projected pensions, but with respect to the discharge of men who were young upon registered pensions. Dr. BO WRING regretted that estimates of so large an amount, and of such extreme importance, were not re ferred to a Select Committee, because, unless such a course were adopted it was impossible that these esti mates could be well considered. Added to this, he , thought it was not right or becoming of that House to vote away such large sums of money when there were only , about forty members present.—(Hear, hear.) He be lieved if the proceedings of that House, when voting away the public money, were made more public, the greatest good would result. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD could not let this subject drop without calling the attention of the House to the unconstitutional nature of the immense standing army that was kept up. They had 48,405 rank and file ; they had 6,000 marines on shore, which made up wards of 54,000; then they had 10,000 pensioners, making 64,000. The volunteer force was 14,000. The Irish constabulary was 9,000, making the whole force combined 87,809. Then there was the artillery and ma rines, of which he had no knowledge. Now, he would ask the Government and the House, whether it was ne cessary to keep up such a force ? If it was neces sary, why, he would ask, was it so ? Were the people disloyal to the Sovereign? He was perfectly convinced there never was a Sovereign on - the throne of England to whom the people were more attaehed. Were the people disloyal to the Constitution? No. They were only desirous of having the benefit of the Constitution? —(Hear, hear.) Was it necessary for the protection of life and property that this immense army should be kept u:1 cause? If Theitw a re s, as th o e n n w h a e s wanted s_ te o t a o know wt justice washat w no a t s do t n h e e to the working classes. He did not speak of political rights. He spoke of the condition of the working classes. The Government and that House did not do justice to the working classes. They legislated for ether interests than that of the poor man, and the consequence was, that they were obliged to keep up this large army to keep the people in subjection. In the fifteenth century the poor were expelled from the land, which was seized by the aristocracy. At a subse quent period the poor-laws were established, to give the poor man a compensation for what he had lost. That law had now been altered so as to deprive the poor man of that right, by denying him any relief except in the last state of destitution; at the same time they did this they kept up the corn-laws. These were the causes of insubordination and discontent. Another cause was the enormous amount of taxation, and the way in which it was levied. At present the taxes were paid in a greater proportion by the poor than by the rich. The same reasons for discontent prevailed in Ireland, where the poor-laws were also still more inapplicable to the dispo sition and circumstances of the people. No wonder there was such discontent in Ireland, or that one of the uses to which their standing army was applied was the levying of the poor-rates from the people. He was the advocate of education, but if they educated the people without giving them the means of living, they would only be increasing their discontent. In the present circum stances, and in the manner in which the poor were treated, he did not deny that they required an army; but he did deny that such an army would be required if the poor were treated as they ought to be. If they looked at the early periods of their history—periods of which they might boast—a large standing army was not required to keep the public in subjection. In the days of King Alfred, the constitution that he formed was sufficient to keep the country in order without a stand ing army. In those days the sheriff, with the posse comitatus, was able to maintain the peace of the country. But now, they were afraid to trust the people with those arms in their hands, which they were then called on to keep for the assistance of the civil officer. The discon tent altogether arose from the maltreatment of the poor. A voluntary force taken from among all classes would be a constitutional one. But their present voluntary force was not a constitutional one, being entirely taken from one class to keep the others in subjection. He was aware that there were not enough Members in that House to support him, in an effectual resistance to the Government getting such an army. If the minority that voted with him on the last occasion were resolved, he knew that it was possible to delay the grants for that army, for a considerable time ; it would be perfectly practicable to do this; but it was not practicable for an in dividual to undertake to do such a thing. He was free to confess that both out of the House and in it, though he had raised the question of a standing army, he had not met sueh a display of feeling as would justify him in any prGlonged attempt to resist the Government. If he had met proper support he would not have spared himself, but he would freely acknowledge there was not that sufficient feeling outside the House to justify him in making an effort of this kind. It would be a wasting of the public time without any effect. These were the feelings he entertained on the subject. But he was de sirous of expressing his opinion on the constitutional question of keeping up so large a standiug army. He concluded by moving, as a resolution, " That the large amount of the standing army now.kept up for the public service is contrary to constitutional liberty, and dan gerous to the rights of the people." Dr. BOWRING seconded the resolution. It con tained a principle which he was not disposed to negative, but on the contrary to support. In his opinion,. with a popular Sovereign, a popular Executive, and a popular Legislature, there was no necessity for keeping up a large standing army. He believed that a Government was good to the extent to which it was supported by public opinion, and bad in proportion to the necessity of its employing military force. He had presented. a peti tion from Bolton, complaining of the amount of the stand ingarmy.His constituents recognising the principle that taxation and representation ought to go hand-in-hand to gether, and that m this House, so far from being associated they were wholly alienated ; they protested, and he pro tested in their name, against the application of the money they were called on to subscribe for the sup port of such a large standing army. He quite 'con curred with his Hon. Friend as to the small support they received in that House, and the not yet developed opinion out of doors. Still he was bound to say that there was a growing discontent and want of confidence out of doors, on the part of the unrepresented millions who were but ill satisfied with the proceedings of the Government. Mr. FIELDEN said, that when Hon. Gentlemen ob jected to the course pursued by his Hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale, they seemed to him to forget from whose pockets the taxes were derived. It was not becoming the House to refuse inquiry into the griev ances of the people. He had sat upon the Hand-loom Weavers' Committee, and it appeared that 100,000 per sons were in a state of great distress—a number equal to the slaves of the West Indies, for whose liberation, they paid 20,000,0001.—(Hear, hear.): The condition of the working classes was neglected. They brought in a Factories Bill, but there was nothing in it which would prove in the least satisfactory to those who worked in factories. A Poor-law Amendment Bill was also intro duced, but it was a Bill which it was impossible to amend. They could not make it acceptile to the people. The first Bill was brought in for the avowed purpose of making the labouring men more independent, and had it that effect ? No, it bad not. lie felt confi dent that if they . did not speedily do something to ren der more comfortable the condition of the people, they would find it difficult to govern them. They were on the brink of a volcano. He implored them to retrace their steps. They were at present proceeding in a cir- 1 cle. When they got more taxes; they got more forces ; and when they got more forces, they got more taxes; and with the augmented taxes they got more forces again. —(Hear.) But they must stop at length. The country would not long endure such a course. If the Right Hon. Baronet gave them an assurance that he would take the grievances of the people into his consi- 1 deration ,nobody would refuse to vote the supplies. .., / THE S,UN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 5 ~ . 1844, The House then divided,- when there appeared— For the motion Against it' Majority against the motion —79 The House theri resolved itself into a Committee, Mr. GREENE in the Chair. ARMY ESTIMATES. Sir H. lIARDINGE then rose - to submit to the Com mittee the vote for the army estimates, and in doing so said he would follow the usual course of -etplaining the dif ference which existed in the - vote - for the present year and that of last - year. • The most important vote was the: first,., that for the whole of her Majesty's land forces, and he would therefore enter into some explanation of it. The Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Rochdale, and the Hon, Gentleman who spoke last, talked as if the standing army was kept up for the purpose of, enfdrcing the g rea t amoun t o f ta xe s. B u t that •Was , net the case. The standing army was kept.up iii order that they might be able to afford relief to the troops abroad. The army of all ranks consisted of 100,295 men. Of this number there were 30,000 in the East Indies. There were 5,000 officers, and 5,500 non commissioned officers. In 1842 the number amounted to 122,516, and it certainly was the intention of her Majesty's Government to make a reduction, but the estimate had scarcely passed tha House when the events which took place in Caubul rendered it necessary to send six battalions to India. In the following year it was the intention of her Majesty's Governtnent, as he had declared in moving the estimates, to 'make a re duction of 3,500 men, and 2,000 were reduced last year. That course would have been pursued in-the present year, but the state of affairs in India was such that not withstanding the six battalions sent out the Governor- General was not able to send home the three regiments which ought to have been sent to England in return. That disappointment, connected with other circum stances, caused the Government not to make that re duction which he admitted and declared it was their intention to make. But the expense of the 30,000 men in India, which amounted to about 1,000,0004 was borne by the East India Company. He thought he should be able to shoW the Hon. Mem ber for Coventry that the force kept up this year was not for the sake of having a standing army in this country, but to give our forces abroad that relief to which they were entitled. Every Government had sanctioned the principle of regiments being five years at home and ten years abroad. In the year 1842 there had been more than thirty-two regiments abroad upwards of ten years, and the Government thought it their duty to relieve those with the 'greatest expedition. Between the years 1837 and 1842, a force of 21,000 men had been raised by the Government of Lord Melbourne, owing to circum stances in Canada, China, &c., and, in addition to that force, Government determined to convert nine depots into seven battalions, and send them abroad to the various colonies to relieve the regiments there. There were still upwards of fourteen regiments in India that had been more than ten years abroad, and it was of the utmost importance that they should be speedily relieved; that relief, which should be given periodically, could not be afforded without a corresponding force at home, and it was for that purpose, and not to keep up a standing army, that they had those forces. The 13th Regiment of Infantry, which was commanded by Sir R. Sale, had been in India upwards of twelve years. It was on its march to Sukkur, in Sinde, where it might have to encounter an enemy ; and the 55th,Regiment had been abroad twenty-two years, and now he asked was that proper? The Hon. Member for Coventry had re ferred to the state of the army in 1822, and seemed to say there was at present a very effective force. If he numbered the general officers among the effective portio,n of the army, he (Sir Henry Hardinge) regretted to say that but five of those officers, from their great age, could be numbered among the effective forces. He would now call attention to the more effective por tion of the army. In 1822 there were 396 general officers, now there were 171, being a diminution of 225; the half-pay officers then amounted to 771; they were now 360. The foreign half-pay officers in 1822 were 979 in number; they were now only 466. In 1822 there were alto gether 12,019 officers, whose pay, including emoluments to their wives, amounted to 1,651,0001. In the present year the number of officers was 5,032, while their pay &c., came to 909,000/, showing a reduction of 742,0001. The saving in the reduction of pensioners amounted to 322,000/. Upon these two items alone, the Chelsea pen sioners and the officers of the army, there had been a reduction of 1,100,000/ It was not this Government alone, or the Government of the Duke of Wellington, but there had been a general endeavour to effect a re duction in the expenditure. He would now proceed to the ordinary part of the estimates. The first vote was that for 100,295 men, the expense being 3,200,0001. This was 187,5231. less than the amount last year. The dimi nution, however, was only an apparent one, occasioned by the transfer of a part of the expenditure to the corn misariat. For the last three or four years there had been great difficulty in settling the commisariat ac counts, in consequence of the events in Canada. Her Majesty's Government was of opinion that it was practically a better arrangement that the commissariat estimates should be kept in their own department than that they should enter into the general estimates of the service. Another item was that of 2,0001. for libraries. At home there were 38 libraries, of which 17 were in Ireland ; and he believed that in the most remote station a library would very shortly be established. The ground of the Chatham Lunatic Asylum being in a bad state, arrangements had been made for the purchasing of some ground for building in the neighbourhood of Ro chester, and this would be included in the estimates of the year. The vote for the staff exhibited an increase of 4,000/ The fourth vote was that for the public de partments. There was no real inerease in this vote, although there was a small apparent one arising from the postage. There was no vote for the Trinity House, while for the Trinity Asylum there was a small increase. In the volunteer corps there was a diminution of 2,000/. The fourteenth vote was that for the widows' pensions. In this item there was a small increase-850/ That increase was attributable to the circumstance, that a very large num ber of general officers, twenty-seven, he believed, in all, had died during the past year. In the compassionate listC h e t l h s e e a r e p w e a n s s i a o n s e xua r s 1 1, i t n h c e r r e e as w e as . In a t r h e e d s u i c x t t i e o e n n t o h f v 1 0 3 t , e 2 , 9 f 4 0 i r . The decrease in the number of pensioners this year was about seven hundred. Ten thousand pensioners were enrolled, to be called out whenever circumstances might require the adoption of such a course. In Ire land, where six thousand pensioners were enrolled, he was happy to say the applications for exemption eaffmecoutinvteedfoornelye,tionell7uod.ing all The si t i h p e er i an tem nu s a , superannuation allowances amounted to only 13,0001 . The charge f or th e w hole ,0001. He had now gone throu g h th e w h o l e o f the items. 5 48 would be happy to give any explanations which the' Hon. Gentlemen might require. He could only state, in conclusion, that her Majesty's Government were anxious, not only to maintain the efficiency of the army, but in everything which related to expense to observe the most strict and rigid economy. The Right Hon. Baronet then moved that 100,295 men should be fixed as the standing force for the year. Captain LAYARD said, no doubt it would be in the recollection of the House, that for the two last years, upon the army estimates being brought under.discusston, ho had thought it his duty, a duty which be owed to the service, to which he considered it au honour to belong, to state his opinion of the immense advantage it would be, that men should be allowed to enlist for limited ser vice —(Hear, hear)—as by such means a very superior class of men, he had no doubt, would enter the service, and by such means a great deal of the crime which was now committed would be avoided. For nothing could be looked upon as a greater or graver offence than de sertion, which, alas, unhappily existed to a great extent in the army, and which arose from two causes—the first and strongest of which was, a man after enlistment hav ing found that there was no chance of escape from a ser vice for which he found himself totally unfit. Now, in the French service desertion was not so frequent, as men only served there' for a given period. He (Captain Layard) felt convinced that the parents of young men in the middle classes would not feel that aversion which was now felt in letting their sons enter the service, as then, if a boy entered at 18 and received his discharge at 28, he would be able to apply himself to any other call ing, which would not be the case at a later period of life.—(Hear, hear.) It had been stated as a reason, and it seemed at first sight an insurmountable one, the expense of sending home any considerable number considered n m s i e d n e , red i supposing at th thee expense regiment os tot t a en i met by not giving any pension to men Who'enlisted for a entailed' d abroad; Nvould b but e f u l h l y e limited time.—(Hear, hear.) And he (Captain Layard) had every reason to believe that most men would remain, particularly if their regiment were abroad, the soldier being generally much better off in foreign climates than he was at home, though, of course, more exposed to the vicissitudes of climate. Now, his (Captain Layard's) opi nion upon this subject was formed upon his own personal observation, and had since been confirmed by the opinion of many able officers whom he had spoken to upon the subject. And he believed few, if any, would disagree with him, when he stated that one, whose judgment upon this subject must be one of the very best, and whose anxiety for the well-being of the soldier all must appreciate, agreed with him in that opinion the l as t time he brought forward the subject. He alluded to the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary at War. He therefore wished to ask that Right Hon. and Gallant Officer if there was any chance of it being carried into effect. And in the second place, he wished to ask that Right Honourable Baronet if it was in contemplation to in crease the bounty upon enlistment, as he was well assured, from personal observation, that the recruit, finding himself in debt, very often deserted, believing that good faith had not been kept with him. He trusted this would be amended, as it was, he believed one of the greatest sources of crime. He, for one, begged to thank the Right Hon. Baronet and those in authority at the Horse Guards, for having instituted savings -banks, as he believed it would be of great use ; and he con sidered the Gallant Officer the Member for Liverpool deserved credit for having advocated it as he did, and for having promoted it when in his power. He felt that encouragement to steadiness and good conduct would have the best possible effect ; and this was proved by the great benefit that had been derived from the excel lent plan carried out by the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland with respect to the good conduct badges, and which had led to the happiest results. He thought that great good would accrue to the service if lance corporals were to receive twopence a day, and lance ser geants threepence a day, additional pay, as they had a great deal of duty to perform ; and, as in many instances they had to attend school, they were put to considerable expense. He trusted that those in authority would allow a longer period for furlongs to be granted this year, as none had yet been given ; and though it might not make any material difference to regiments who re mained at home, yet to thosewho were likely to go abroad it was of the greatestimportance, as many men could have little chance of seeing their families again, for a very long time, if ever. Before he sat down he must draw the attention of the House to the very pitiful, in short, to tally inadequate pension which was now given to the ' private soldier, a pension so-low, that, though it might relieve the poor4ate,it could not support the man. And if limited service was introduced, a better pension might be given 'without increasing the expenditure of. the country. He (Captain Layard) thanked the House-for the kind indulgence they had granted him. No party feeling had, or could actuate him upon such an occasion, feeling, as he did, what every man in that House, what every man in the country must feel, an anxious, a sincere desire, for the comfort, the - happiness, and the well-being of those who, undismayed by the vicissitudes of climate, undaunted by the.sword'ef-an enemy, maintained, as they al ways had done,. the - glory -,aillcUt6lekendence *Ow country.—(Cheers.) - Sir 11. iTARDINGE would eilgivolif,ra he could, to give answers to the several questions Which the Gallant Officer had . put, and, in many respects, he entirely concurred with the sentiments of the Gallant Officer.—(Hear, liear.) The Gaßant Officer was aware that the system of giving free discharges in 1825 had operated very usefully in reconciling families to alloW their sons to "join the army. Besides, the effect had been useful to the public in another • way, for the savin,g in pensions since 1829 had been equal to a half million sterling.-(Hear.) With respect to the bounties, and allowances to the recruits, he could only answer that they were quite sufficient in cavalry regi ' ments, and he believed they were not -inadequate in the infantry. With regard to the absurd notion, which the Gal lant Officer had so properly endeavoured to remove, that - there was an intention on the part of the Government to make use of regimental savings' banks as a means of ascer tainink how far the payment of soldiers would be reduced, he - could 'assure the House that never was there any such intention, and the soldiers themselves had given the most substantial proof that the error was not very generally received.—(Hear, hear.) He quite agreed with the Gallant Officer as to the expediency of allowing coals and candles to married officers in barracks.— (Hear, hear.) He had been in communication on' the subject, with some of the most intelligent clerks. And he was satisfied—(as we understoOd)—that it was ad visable to allow the coals and candles under the circum stances referred to by the Gallant OffiCer.—(Hear.) In answer to a question from the Earl of SURREY, Sir H. HARDINGE said, that although it *as not in all cases practicable to provide railway . carriages for the wives and children of married soldiers proceeding with their regiments by railway, every effort was made to afford them accommodation. Mr. W. WILLIAMS must acknowledge that all the Right Honourable Gentleman had said was very clear. But yet it did not satisfy him.—(Hear, and . laugh.) The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer had stated that the circumstances of the country required an increase of the forces; but he had not stated what those circumstances were.—(Hear.) The Gallant OZcer had shown the necessity for relieving the troops on foreign service. He (Mr. W.) would do as much as the Gallant Officer to relieve those troops. But there was another body of persons who also stood in need of relief—the impoverished people of this country, who had to pay all the expenses.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer must be aware in what a state of starvation the people had lately been. They were not so very badly off now.—(Hear.) But they might go back to that again; or perhaps something worse. There were no classes in this Empire, except those who lived on the taxes, who were in a condition to afford to the army more accommodation and comfort than they had received for the last twenty-five years. We were now in the twenty. eighth year of peace, and, according to the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the expenditure last year was 53,600,0001. He (Mr. Williams) said it was mere ; but, according to the state ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that was the amount. The Right Hon. the Seeretary at War said that the dead weight had been reduced by the reduc tion in the half-pay pensions. Why in the year 1818, only three years after the war, the half-pay pensions were 2,600,000/; this year they amounted to 2,200;0001. He (Mr. Williams) rose for the purpose of proposing a reduction of 20,000 men from the number proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had shown that the number of men proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, adding those forces which were as much a portion of the military as the Guards, was greater by 59,000 men than the average of 1822 and 1823; greater by 41,000 than the average of 1836 and 1837; greater by 33,000 than the average of the last 24 years.. He therefore moved that the number of men be reduced this year by 20,000. Lord HOWICK did not rise with the intention of supporting the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman. He believed that they were not prepared to make the re duction in the military force of the country which the Hon. Gentleman proposed. But at the same time he (Lord Howick) could not think the Right Hon. Gentle man opposite (Sir H. Hardinge) could rest his proposi tion for maintaining so large a force exclusively upon the necessity for maintaining relief for our colonial pos sessions. He entirely concurred with the Hon. and Gal lant Officer in saying that the pressure on the British infantry of the line was greater than it ought to be. He (Lord Howick) was persuaded that measures ought to be adoptei for the purpose of rendering relief more fre quent. He thought there were several measures that might be adopted with this view. In the first place, he retained the opinion which he had long entertained, that much might be done by diminishing the proportion of each regiment that was at home. He thought it was un fortunate that that description of force which did not feel the pressure so much were not required to take a greater share of duty than they did at present, During the time that he had the honour to fill the office of Secretary-at-War, when the unfortunate insurrection in Canada arose, he recommended the Government and Lord Hill to send over two battalions of Guards to Canada. That measure was adopted, and those Guards were now come home, but he had not learned that any portion of that •force had been sent to any of the other colonies. Now he was far from saying that the regiments of the Guards ought to take a share of the colonial service ex actly like the regiments of the line. But he did say that so far as service at short distances, and in healthy climates was concerned, he thought that they should do something. He thought that two battalions of guards should be stationed at Gibraltar, or in the Mediterranean, as a regular arrangement. The officers and men in the Guards had very great and remarkable advantages over the rest , of the army. An officer in the Guards rose to the rank of a general officer, very much more rapidly than the officers in other regiments. No man could look through the army list and not find that out. He thought, therefore, that it was not too much to ask'them to take a . portion of the foreign duty. Now if two battalions were continually abroad, either in the Medi terrrnean or in North America, to be relieved every two years, he thought it would be a very good arrangement, considering that at present the time of the Guards was passed. between Windsor and London. He thought, too, that something more should be done by having a larger proportion of marines. He thought a battalion of ma rines could be employed with great advantage at Gib raltar, and would be foundlo be of great service if a war were to break out, and would also tend to diminish the amount•of colonial duty imposed on the infantry of the line. Allusion had been made to the subject of pensions to•soldiers. It had been said that a soldier re turning after a long service, and worn out, had only six pence a day pension. Now he could not sit there and allow that representation to go forth without a word of Formerly m measureser I l t y thew h wase practice i . had very explanation.• Th a t was not t h e amount o f pens i on to which a soldier was ' entitled, who was worn o easyta adopted pat t ed o formerly.—(Hear.) r me n: . e r had n l fault Hre with )t was, s en to retire from the service on a pension, unless he was unfit for the service. The practice was however altered, and then the soldier could, retire, after twenty-one years service, on a pension of one shilling per day. This was found to lead to great inconvenience. In the first place, men at the age of. thirty-nine frequently claimed the re tiring pension. The full pay was only twopence per day more than the pension ; and the men would, of course, rather have one shilling a day and do nothing, than one shilling and twopence per day for active service. The Right Hon; and Gallant Officer, 'when serving under the Duke of Wellington, endeavoured to check this system. He had endeavoured to pr even t men f rom ret i r i ng at thirty-nine years of age, unless those who were really unfit for service. It was further ordered, that the cer tificate of the regimental surgeon should be no longer deemed of itself sufficient, as it was well known that commanding officers desired to have young active men in the service. The soldier who applied to be discharged on a pension, had to go to Chatham and undergo inspection by a surgeon not in connection with• the regiment. He had likewise to ap pear before the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital, who should certify as to his unfitness for military duty before he received his pension. A great many complaints were made by those soldiers desirous of obtaining their dis charge, of being afflicted with chronic; rheumatism, which although frivolous and ill-grounded, was often dif ficult to be disproved. When they had passed the ma gical period of 39, the chronic rheumatism was com plained of, and the pension applied for. In this manner the pension list was every year swelling enormously, and becoming an insupportable burden to the country. — (Hear, hear.) Men, after a service of 21 years, might be receiving a pension for 30 years after their discharge —a pension, too, almost adequate to the full pay of the active soldier,—(Hear.) The best. proof that many sol diers obtained their discharge on frivolous grounds was the fact, that numbers of those who had obtained their discharge years ago were now about to be put upon litary duty , - Sir H. HARDINGE—Oh! no; . not military duty. Lord HOWICK—Duty to a certain extent; but he did not attribute any blame to the War-office on that score. It was impossible for that department to check the evil whilst the inducement to commit it remained so great. In order to .guard against this abuse it was necessary that the pension for mere disability should be decreased, and upon their continuing a few years more in the service it should be increased. It was deluding the public to say that men might be discharged from the army, worn out and shattered, on 6d. a-day, for he might have a pension of is. a-day if his merits were equal to it. Another great evil existed under the former system. A commanding officer might report that the man applying for the pension was a _ notorious drunkard, yet if that man had not fallen under the sentence of a court martial, he was entitled to the same pension as the most deserving soldier. This was represented to the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London, when Pay master of the Forces. By virtue of his office he was then also chairman of the Board of Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital, and that Noble Lord had done all in his power to remedy it. When he (Lord Howick) came into office he suggested (and his proposition met the sanction of Lord Hill), that in the event of the good conduct of the soldier during his service he should re ceive the full pay, and should derive the full advantage of the warrant of his Right Hon. Friend, and of the good conduct warrant. Thus he would receive, not a pension of 6d. a day, but of Is., Is. 2d., is. 3d., or some times even is. 4d., as the case might be. For his (Lord Howick's) part, he would much rather increase the comforts of the soldier in active service, improve his barracks, and give him a better and more suitable description of food ; especially when in distant climates. He thought greater facilities should be afforded to the soldier for going out of the army and returning home to see his friends. He disapproved of one part of the warrant'of 1829—that part which enabled the soldier to have a gratuity when discharged. When the soldier could commute his pension for an immediate gratuity, the natural improvidence of his habits too often induced him to - sactiiice future comfort for present gratification, a step which he ever afterwards regretted. With refer ence to the charge in the army estimates now before the Honse, regarding the troops serving abroad, he must say that : :he, in .a great measure, disapproved of it. .It.,_was incumbent on him,' before he sat down; to say a ''reVrwords on the management Of the commissariat. It was impossible to pass this by without Saying that, in his opinion, the administration of the commissariat un der the Treasury—no matter whether it Was' when Hon. Gentlemen opposite were in office, or when his (Lord Howick's) friends were—had ever been in the highest degree unsatisfactory. It was impossible it could. be otherwise. The load of business which pressed upon the joint Secretaries for the Treasury was so great, that it was impossible for them to give an efficient superin tendence to this branch of the military service and the control of it consequently fell into the hands of certain number of clerks of the Treasury. They did their best, according to their judgment, no doubt ; but still they had not that authority which permitted an effective con trol, and so, the Horse Guards being unchecked, followed on in the Old routine system,. and the result was a la mentable want OE economy in the expenditure of money, and a ravish Waste of the health and comfort of the troops. .As evidence in support of his position, he would advance one or two statistical facts. For 20 years following the peace, up to 1835, in what was called the Windward and Leeward Islands command, on an average strength. of 1,090 men, there had been an .annual mortality of 93 men, whilst the annual mortality on the same 'number of men at home was 15. In the West Indies, the total loss of men was the frightful numbei• of 6,800, not one of whom, let it be remembered, perished in battle, but simply and solely from disease induced by the climate and the s hard administration of the commissariat, Disease of course was, to a certain degree, the inevitable consequence of the climate, indeed, he sincerely believed that that was a danger requiring more courage to face than the greatest and deadliest war. Now, where climates were so deleterious, it was doubly requisite that every precaution should be taken to arrest that mortality, and to make every effort to preserve the health of the troops. And yet five days in each week would it be believed salt provisions were given out in these burning climates? He could cite a still stronger case than that. During the 'whole six years we had a large garri son in St. Helena, in order to guard Napoleon, no fresh provisions whatever were given out to the troops—they had uniformly and entirely salt provisions. The morta lity during these six years was 34 men in every 1,000; being, rather more than double the rate of mortality in the mother country. And this, be it recollected, was not in an unwholesome climate like the West Indies, but in a really healthy place. In the Mauritius salt provisions were given out every other day to the troops—whereas, here, and, indeed, in many other places he could enu merate, where the salt-provision practice obtained, fresh provisions • were actually to be obtained at a less price. He could show that not only in regard to the lives of the soldiers, bnt in point of expense, a vast saving might have been effected had the administration of the com missariat been only on a proper footing and efficiently controlled. This was no party question, and he spoke not in a party sense. The blame attached to Lord Liver pool's administration, to the Duke of Wellington's, to the Reform administration—in short, to every Govern ment that had existed, including the present one. He blamed not individuals, but the system which placed the commissariat administration in the hands of persons who had no other military duties to perform ' and did not truly understand military exigencies. With these facts before them, he thought the time was come when a better system should be arranged ; for to leave it as at present, under the Treasury, was only to per petuate evils which had lasted far too long. He felt obliged, by the opportunity which had been afforded him, of making these remarks, and should conclude by expressing his intention of voting against the proposed reduction of the Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Wil liams), and in favour of the vote proposed by the Right Hon. and Gallant Secretary at War (Sir H. Hardinge). Mr. P. HOWARD would vote in favour of the Go vernment if a division took place. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt bound, as the Noble Lord had made a severe attack upon the commissariat department, to say a few words. He was fully prepared to discuss with the Noble Lord the propriety of keeping up a commissariat department in connexion with the Treasury. It was a department of account, and, in that respect, it came under the control of those who had the management of the financial affairs of the country. He was satisfied that the commissariat department, as now established, added to, and did not diminish the comfort of, the troops, and besides which, a considerable saving to the public had been effected. Ho felt convinced that if the details of the commissariat department accounts were referred to the War-office, they would be as unable to undestand them as the officers of the Treasury. Mr. F. BARING bore testimony to the intelligence of the officers connected with the commissariat depart ment. With reference to the removal of the estimates from the army to the commissariat department, he should not object to it provided the Secretary-at-War had the same power of checking the accounts as formerly. lie was not prepared to go' into particular cases, but he thought there was a great advantage in the Secretary at War having the power of examining and checking the accounts. It was not a question of jealousy between the War-office and the commissariat ; though the Secretary could not himself overlook all the accounts, they might be, as they wero formerly, under the inspection of two comptrollers. Sir J. CAM HOBITOITSE trusted the Hon. and 'Gallant Officer opposite would hesitate before he changed the scale of pensions of 1833. It was made with the full sanction of the Government of Earl Grey, and was drawn up with the most anxious care. Every pains was taken to make the calculations sound. He deprecated these discussions on such points. Sir H. lIARDINGE said the discussion had, in a great measure, originated with the Hon. Gentlemen opposite. The far greater number of soldiers—ninety nine out of one hundred—were . discharged on account of being unfit for service, not being able to march a day with 601bs. on their backs ; under the present war . rants, these discharged men could only receive one shilling a day for twenty-seven years' service. Out of 27,000 men in the regiments now in England, there were only two men who had served twenty-eight years. A soldier might be perfectly healthy, and yet, through not being able to carry the required weight, unfit for duty. Whatever might be his private opinions, he would endeavour to obtain the best information he could, and, after submitting it to the Government, leave them to act as they thought best. Dr. BOWRING supported the amendment, and ob served, that having always resisted an increase in the army, he was still prepared to minimize it to the greatest possible extent. _ _ Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the ouse divided, when there appeared— For the motion .... For the amendment 114 Majority for the motion —lo2 Colonel RAWDON thought the Government could spare 5,000 men to the country. He therefore moved that there be a reduction of 5,000 men. Sir 11. HARDINGE said that the present number of men were actually necessary for the relief of the troops in the colonies Colonel RAWDON then withdrew his motion. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that according to the Act under which the pensioners were enrolled in Ireland a warrant was to be issued, specifying the number of persons enrolled, and the districts to which they be longed, and that that warrant was to be laid on the table of the House twenty-one days after the commencement of the session of Parliament, and he thought the House and the country ought to get that information to which they were entitled. . _ _ Sir 11. HARDINGE had laid on the table the only warrant that had been issued on the subject to whicE the Hon. Gentlemen referred. After some further discussion, the vote was agreed to. On the motion for granting 3,431,7641., for defraying the charges of her Majesty's land forces for the service -of the United Kingdom, Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the charge of 82,0001. for small beer. The charge for last year was 71,000 L, whilst that for 1836 was only .61,000/. He 'would be glad to know what was the cause of the increase. Sir 11. HAIMINGE said a penny , a day had been given to every soldier on home service for many years past; and the addition was in consequence of several regiments having returned recently from abroad. Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the contingent allow ances to captains. Sir H. HARDINGE said this allowance was the same as had been allowed for many years past. Colonel SIBTHORP thought .it would be better if Hon. Members opposite would confine themselves to subjects with which they were familiar. To his certain knowledge, the two items referred to had been included in the votes for the last sixteen years.—(Hear.) The vote was then agreed to. Mr. BROTHERTON moved that the Chairman re port progress, and ask leave to sit again. Mr. WILLIAMS seconded the motion. After a few words from Sir H. HARDINGE, which were not heard in the gallery, the motion was agreed to. and the House resumed. The Report was then brought up and agreed to, when he House adjourned, at a Quarter past Twelve o'Clock. Ma. BARNARD GREGORY.—This gentleman, who, it will be recollected, is now undergoing his term of impri sonment in Newgate, has long been (says a correspondent) in a declining state of health ; and it is stated that unless a favourable change takes place, there is great doubt whether he will live out the term of his sentence. Mr. Gregory is al lowed every accommodation afforded to prisoners similarly situated in the prison, and does not appear to suffer much from the . . effect of his confinement. The complaint un der which he labours is believed to be an internal affection of long standing.—Sunday Paper. UNLICENSED SPORTING.—On Saturday, at the Hammersmith Police Court, William Stone, a boy, f i ft een years of age, living in School-house-lane, Chiswick, was fully committed by Mr. G. Clive, the sitting Magistrate, to New gate for trial on three charges of stealing a fine live cock, eight live pigeons, and a live black hen, from different per sons in the neighbourhood of Hammersmith. There were several other charges of a similar nature against the prisoner, but they were not gone into. It appeared he always carried pieces of bread and some barley with him, with which, under the pretence of feeding fowls, pigeons, &c., he enticed them into a by place, and then contrived to bag them. A veteran Tory, when dying at Durham, on Sun day last, observed to a friend that he had "made his peace with God and all mankind; shortly after which, he hur riedly inquired--" By the by, have they hanged O'Connell yet ?" - • NAVAL -- INTELLIGENeFr.- - - PORTSMOUTH, MARCH conseqnence of the recent .alterations in the convict - department, it has been found ne ccessary to engage numbers of free labourers - at the various Royal Dockyards, to fill up the vacancies which the sudden decrease of convicts had created, but theliands entered-hav ing been confined to the present demand, a rumour has been circulated that the crew of the Victory were to be-employed as labourers at this port. Thiti rnmourhas been confirmed this week, by an order from the Admiralty to enter 400 men on the books of the above celebrated ship (which, is not to in clude her harbour complement) to work as labourers or' me chanics; according to their , qualifications, in. this yard, but to be convertible to sea service in the event of an emer gency. They are rated as able seamen (Bs. 6d. per week), and will have an allowance of 7s. per week for provision s , and are to live ashore. The Queen, 110, Captain Rich, in the Mediterranean, is or: dered home to be paid off, and Admiral Sir E. W. C, R. Oweu will hoist his flag on the -Formidable, Captain Sir C. Sullivan; who, in that event, will exchange ships with Captain Rich. Commander Kitchen, of the Queen, is appointed to the De: vastation, vice the Hon. Captain Carnegie, returning home to occupy his seat in Parliament. • . _ The America, 50, was commissioned at Plymouth, by :Lieutenant C. W. Lindsay, on Tuesday last, for the Hqn. Captain John Gordon. „ • . - The Firebrand 'is reported ready for commission, and will, it is expected, hoist the pendant in a day or two. Theßelena, 16, Captain Sir C. Ricketts, arrived, on the 25th of January at Madeira from Plymouth, and sailed on the 28th thence for Mexico, having on board Mr. Bankhead sad. suite. Tie Growler, steam-vessel, Captain Buckle, was at Bahia on the 29th, of December, :having just returned from a .cruise., The Hyacinth, 18, Commander Scott, arrived at Madeira on the 31st ult. from Plymouth, and sailed on the 2d inst. for thetape 'herd Islands. The Daring, 12, now building at this yard, will be ready to leave the stocks in the early part of Next month. - , - The Falmouth, Davis, master, arrived on ➢londay from Havannah, which she left the 18th of January. - The Emerald, tender, sailed on Tuesday, with - seamen gunners from the Excellent, to join the America, 50, at Ply mouth. The Colombo, East Indianian, Captain Thompson, sailed for Mauritius and Bombay on Tuesday, encountered a heavy gale off the Land's-end, and was compelled to bear up again for Spithead, and anchored on the Motherbank on Thursday, where she now remains, together with a small fleet of mer chantmen, weather-bound. The SaMarang, 26, Captain Sir E. Belcher, K.C.B. wwa about to proceed to examine an island to the eastward of Formosa, preparatory to commencing a survey of the islands to the south-east of the China Sea. The Alligator, 26, Master-Commander Brown, was ex pected at Calcutta with captured Chinese guns, whence she would proceed to Trincomalee for stores, &c., for the ships in China. The Starling surveying -vessel, Lieutenant-Commander Hunt, was put out of commission on the 26th of October last at China. The Thalia, 42, Captain Hope, was at Bombay on the 17th of December, whence she proceeded to join . Rear-Admiral Thomas in the Pacific. • The Rattlesnake and Sapphire troop-ships are on their passage to England, with invalids of both services. The Fox, 42, Capt. Sir H. Blackwood; Bart., is expected to proceed from the Shannon to Devonport, to equip for foreign service. The Curagoa, 24, Captain Sir Thomas Pasley, Bart., wag on Christmas Day at Rio Janeiro, refitting, preparatory to joining Commodore Purvis's squadron at Monte Video, from which latter place the Racer, 16, was daily expec'ed at Rio de Janeiro. The Resistance troop-ship arrived yesterday from Devon port to embark detachments of the 23d and 71st for Canada, and the 2d battalion of the Rifle Brigade for Nova Scotia, on Monday. The Waterwitch, 10, is undergoing repairs by Mr. White, at Cowes, and being very rapidly proceeded with. Mr. White has the construction of two new 12-gun brigs, which will be launched in May next. The Pestonjee Bomanjee transport, Lieutenant W. Still, agent, is gone to bring home the remainder of the 59th from Barbadoes. The Magpie surveying -vessel, Commander Brock, has been paid off at Woolwich. She has just returned from the Mediterranean. The Tortoise store-ship, Commander Finlaison, is ex pected at Spithead next week from Chatham, on her way to Ascension. The Mercury tendef, Scarlett master, sailed on Wed nesday, for Sheerness, with draughts of men for the Cain perdown. • _ _ _ The Emerald 'tender sailed en Tuesday for Plymouth with supernumeraries. In Harbour—The St. Vincent, Victoria .and Albert, Vic tory, Excellent, and Echo ; Dee and Fearless, steam-vessels. In Dock—The Rodney, Athol, Prince Regent, Magicienne. and Lily. At Spithead—The Prince George and .Resistance. DEVONPORT, FEB. 29.—The Lancier, Dutch schooner, was towed out of the harbour into the Sound on Friday, by the Confiance steamer, and as soon as the weather will per mit will sail for the coast of Africa. The Raven cutter, Lieutenant Stephens, arrived on F r id a y, from Sheerness, with hands to navigate the F or t, 44 ; t o Deptford to be broken up. The Caledonia, flag-ship, 120, 'Captain A. Milne, will be taken into dock in a day or two, to have her copper examined. She was paid wages on Friday. The Larne, 18, Commander Brisbane, was towed into har bour on Saturday, and is having her defects made good. The Grecian, 16, was docked on Saturday for the same purpose. The Falmouth, lighter, was undocked on Saturday, having undergone complete repair. . The Aid, lighter, arrived from Portsmouth on Sunday, 'ith stores for this yard. The crew of the Resistance, Commander Patey, were paid wages on Tuesday, preparatory to sailing for Portsmouth. - The Diligence, transport, sailed yesterday for Woolwich and Deptford, with stores. _ • . The Atna,. • 6, Lieutenant G. C. Butler, arrived from-Liver pool yesterday, to be paid off. The Raven, cutter, sailed for Sheerness yesterday. The Flora, 36; Creole, 26; and Amethyst, 26, are to be launched this year from this yard, and the frames of a 90- gun ship, to be named the Marlborough, and a frigate of 50 guns, to be named the Liffey, are ordered to be laid down. In Harbour.—Caledonia, America, San Josef, Express, Larne, Confiance, and /Etna. In the Sound.—Lancier, Dutch schooner. There is a report in circulation, which is tolerably welly founded and generally believed in naval circles, that a limited flag promotion is shortly intended, in consequence of so un precedented a number of admirals having died during the last few months. SHEER -NESS, Feb. 29.—The Chichester, frigate, was teWed. into this port on Saturday last, from Woolwich, where she was built. She will be taken into the basin the first oppor tunity. The Adventurer, transport, has been taking in large quad , - titles of old stores at this yard. She also took in the stores which were lent to bringfdown the Vulture from Chatham- She sailed on Tuesday for Devonport. The Ganges, 84, is to be got ready as an advance-ship, and not to be commissioned, as reperted. The Boyne, transport, was taken to Deptford on Tuesday. In Harbour.—The Camperdwn, Speedy, Ocean, and Afri caine. In Dock.—The Ganges, Shannon, Cygnet, and Eolus. The Captain Superintendent (Fisher) of this dockyard re ceived a slight stroke of paralysis on Tuesday last, whilst en gaged in his office, and has been confined to his bed ever since. PROMOTIONS. . Lieutenant.—C. J. Featherstone (1815) 1 of the Volcano, to be commander. Second Masters.—T. C. Pullen, of the Rhadamanthus, H. F. Collins; of the Shearwater, and H. D. Burney, of .the Stromboli, to be masters and pilots. • Mates.—H. G. Veetch (1834) ;G. M. Alldridge (1836) ; H. G. St. John Mildmay . (1835), Pique; J. W. -Probert (1835), Spartan ; C. Rainier 1837, • Tyne ; P. W. Gibson ' (1836) Helena; J. H. Shairp (1835 ) , Apollo; F. H. Shortt, and to America (1842), Excel ent ; and T. Davies (1836),; Flamer, to the rank of Lieutenants. APPOINTMENTS. Lieutenants.—C. W. Lindsay (1837) ;J. B. Marsh (1828); F. H. Shoat (1842), to the America; R. Hoops, to the Tor toise store-ship A. C. C. Denny, to the America. Surgeons.—S. Mackey (1826), to the America ; Bower, to charge of the Cadet convict-ship. Purser.—John Taylor (b), to the America. Mate.—Edward Hempstead, to the America, from the Ex-. cellent. Assistant-Surgeons.—William Hoggan (1842), and Henry- Turnbull, M.D. (1828), to the America; John Speer, to the•. Lucifer. Second Masters.--J. Imrie, to the Rhadamanthus, vice Pullen, promoted; James T. Beckett, to the America, front the Lightning; G. H. Forster, to the Lightning, vice Beckett ; Thomas Bowen, to the Royal Sovereign yacht, at Pembroke; Forbes Macbean, to the Tortoise ; A. b. West,. to the Lucifer. Masters' Assistants.—Mr. D. Speer, to the Lucifer;, F. Taylor, to the America; S. Braddon, to the Lightning. Naval Cadets.—Hon. W. J. Ward, to the America; G. D. Erskine, to the Flamer; C. A. B. Pocock, to the • Fox ; the. Hon. H. W. Chetwynd, to the Camperdown ; B. G. W. Ni colas, to the Styx. Gunner.—Thomas Oliphant, to the America. Carpenter.—Jonathan May, to the America. Clerks.—J. Hay, to the Tortoise ; James WinstP.nley, ad ditional, to the Victoria and Albert. The following medical naval officers have obtained their degres and become members of the Royal Collet ;e of Phy sicians of London :—J. Allan, Haslar Hospital ; Co. Evans, Deputy-Inspector, Jamaica Hospital ; W. Loney, Woolwich Hospital ; R. Tobin, Plymouth Dockyard; L. C. - Urquhart, Sheerness Dockyard; J. Robertson (late of her Majesty's ship Terror) ; T. King, W. T. Ballantine, and R.—Graham. COAST GUARD. Appointment.—Commander F. C. Syer, R. N., to be In specting Commander vice G. Dobson, promoted, a , ?pointed to Clifden district. Removal.—Lieutenant W. Long, from 24 Tow' ex, to Gor ran-haven, vice Shamwell, to Mevagissey. • COURT CIRCULAR.. The Queen held a Privy Council a quarter before three o'cloCk yesterday afternoon, at Buckingham Palace. It was attended by his Royal Highness Prince Albizt, lord Wham cliffe; Lord President; the Duke of Wellington, Commander in -Chief; the Duke of Buccleuch, Lord Privy Seal ; Sir Robt. Peel, First Lord of the Treasury ; the Earl o f Aberdeen, Secre tary of State for Foreign Affairs ; Lord St: alley, Secretary of State for the Colonies; Sir James Graham., Secretary of State for the Home Department; Right Hon. I . i. Gou/burn, Chan cellor.of the Exchequer; the Earl of Haeldington, First Lord of the Admiralty ; Sir Edward Knatchbral, Paymaster of the Forces ; and the Earl of Jersey, Master of the Horse. At the Council a new Sheriff was appointed for the county of Rutland. • Mr. C. Greville was the Clerk of the Council in Waiting. Her Majesty gave audience to Lord Wharucilife and Sir Robert Peel. The Court was attended by the Vice-Chamberlain, the Treasurer of the Household, and the Comptroller ( it the Hous hold. Lord Byron and Admiral Sir Robert Otway were the Lerd: and Groom in Waiting. His Royal Highness Prince Albert, attendedby Sir Edward Bowater, took equestrian exercise in the P.lding School at' Pimlico yesterday. His Royal Highness :visited her Roya! Highness the Duchess of Gloucester at Qioucester House. The " Immaculate Conception," punted for the King cl Spain, Philip IV., by Murillo, was 4tibmitted to the inspec tion of her Majesty and Prince Albert,' by'Mr . Woodburn , E t Buckingham Palace, yesterday, The Lord Mayor had an interview with Sir Robert Peel on Saturday. Mr. Somes, Governor '..)f the New Zealand Company had an interview with Lord Stanley, yesterday, at the Colonial Office. Mr. Thornton,, Deputy Chairman of the Stamps and., Taxes, had an 'interview with the Chancellor of the Ex chequer yeste , :•aay, at his official residence in Downing4treet..-1 Dispatches for the Governors of the North American Co- • lonics werq sent off yesterday evenwg from the Colonial- - office.