The Sun. — London, England, 1803-12-15 00:00:00

the Report of this Bill would have been brought up ' 611114 day, for though he knew it was very par liamentary to report a Bill the same day that it assed the Committee, yet he thought that Mini aters would have been anxious to let this Bill re ot lin as long in the House as t h e yeenea, i n or d er t eat t hey might derive the benefit of the sugges t !toes that might be thrown out by ciifrerent Gentle men, and he thoeglitiso the rather because they had already felt the inconvenience of lusty legislation in the very instance of the Bills which they were now eeelaining. It appeered to him that .Ministers al. ways WI things to the last moment, and then of c ito.e they were obliged to do every thing in a hurry. Dr. Johnson used to say, " there were two modes of composition, one was When a man revolved leis subjed in his Mind, and did not commit his thoughts to paper till they were 'pretty welt ma tured; the other mode was for a man immediately to commit his thoughts to paper, crude and undigested as they rose in his mind, with a view to coned 'them afterwards." This seemed to be the conduit 'of Ministers. They threw out their first thoughts in an' At of Parliament, and afterwards came for an other AEI to explain it. He was very much in hopes that Ministers would have adopted a suggtie. tionwhich he had'thrown out, because it seemed to meet their approbation, be meant that of taking away the Exemptions from the Volunteers. He knew veryo well.that the Exemptions could not be taken away from the Corps already raised, but they might be with-held from those who might be, raised for the future. Ho was afraid it was now too late to make any alteration of that kind ; he could there_ fore only lenient that it had not been adopted.— There was, another objedion which he was sure could not be removed by any alteration in the Bill, he alluded to the power which was given to the Commander of a Carpi, if it was of a Monarchical Constitution, or to the Committee, if it was of a there Democratic nature, of determining who should or should riot enjoy 'Exemption fiom the Army of Reserve Bill, by deciding who should or should not be admitted into the Corps. It was known that the Bounty given to procure Substitutes for the Ar. my of Reserve, amounted ,to fifty guineas ; conse quently it was in the power of the Commanding Officer, or of the Committee, to expose a man to the payment of fifty guineas by refusing to let him into the Corps, or to exempt him from it by ad. mining him : he did not know that this power had ever been abused in this . way, bat it certainly might, and `therefore it would be prudent to guard against it. He wished before he sat down to make a short reply to a charge that had frequently been brought against him :--It was said, Is Why do you, now that the Volunteer System is adopted, still continue to express your sentiments against it ?" His an. swer was this, that tie did not look upon the System as established,, it undoubtedly must Ye reviewed. The Volunteer Corps must have some means of sup port given to them by Government, because the Subscriptions that had been raised were nearly ex. hatlited. He instanced the case of the Corps of St. George's and St;Giles's, who, it was stated, would require a great deal more than the sum subscribed to .complete ,them- There was, no doubt therefore that if this Machine was to go on that Government must grease the wheels. With regard to what he had before said upon this subjed, he still retained his Opinion, `and would not tetrad any one expres sion he had used. He was convinced that there were many faults in the Volunteer System, but they were more the fault of the Ministers than of the men themselves. He agaiii adverted to the impropriety of cloathing the Voonueers in red,' which he con. sidered as of more importance than other Gentle. men did, and lie censured it very strongly. He next alluded to the Recruiting Service, which, he contended, had been very much injured by the ex cessive Boutities given for the Army of Reserve, and he had no duubt but that if recourse had been had to the common mode of Recruiting, instead of the Army of Reserve, that as great a number of men would have beet, raised in the same time. Upon this part of the subject 'Mr. Wi elm eM entered very much into detail,, and concluded with express. ing his disapprobation of the Bill. Mr. Aorn - Ncr. said, the Right Hon. Gentleman seemed anxious to have the last word upon this subjed ;, now he begged to say his first and last word upon the subjet!t, which he as sured the House would be very short. In speaking of the Subscription for Volunteer Corps, the Hon. Gentleman and his friends had confined themselves to one solitary instance ; as to Government being under the necessity of supplying the Volunteers, he' could not see the subjea in that light. It' was per , fedly well knowo that there were many Corps that had no Subscription at all, but where every man equipped himself. In the Corps that he had the tumour to command-the men were chaated by the money allowed by Government, with a very little addition, but there was no Subscription. The great 'objed of the Subscriptions that were raised was to cloath the men ; but it was generally under stood that that (loathing was to last for three years, therefore the inconvenience of which the Hon. Gentleman complained was at least at a very great distance. The Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the great homilies that were given for the Army of Re,erve ; if such bounties were given, it was only in Landoll ; he knew that, in the part of the Country he came float, the usual 'basinty was from 22 to z 6 guineas. With regard to what had been said about Committees beieg 'appointed to regulate Corps, only one instance had been mentioned, and Ire fielieveti it would tie difficult to find 2110111 - er. -.4 He thought it ,yety,unfair. to - 51441page 'that because such a thing existed in one single instance, to inter that it exi,ted in ail.;--rth apro disc, ?ilium,. He had seen indeed, th;it kiiid of Argument lately 'used in print, but he did not think that Right H,41. Gentle. man or his friends siwntild have used it it - v(11A Home. He really did- not know a 9 Ingle instantx in'whicli Committee teas appointed to govern a Corr, 'and he was sure he Would not hold it Commis:lion in any Curps'oitere such a IN. g existed. With reg.ild to what the Right 'lion.' Gen , lentai had said About Ri!c; citing, he lu t i erceivud such abuf.dant answers udart former occ 'sinus upon that .1.1t,j , .a, that it was o itT;cts , ary..ro repeat . tiletta again, ‘Vi - hout mean 1,, g .. to say any.t'r.t:•g peis,maliy disrespeaftd to The iii ht H G.-,:titietn,ol, Lc -couid 4n 7t itt±lp erx i 'ressiog his astotii , ,hinent at die line a conduct which that:G , ntleman had, pursued, and which he' so pertinav usly persevered.. in upon this subject, in taking every opportunity of disparaging, discotr. r 'ging, and degrading a force Upon which the safety . , of the Country so materially depended. He was sure he did not speak too strongly when he said, that there was not a corner in the Country which did not echo with general disapprobation at the iln., guage which had been held with regard to the Vo. lunteers. The People. of this Country' could 'not comprehend . the motives of. such conduct, posterity , would not believe that there could' he found in this Country a man who, in a crisis of such danger,. could Kleclate, that poictot) Britons, armed in defence of their freedom, would not only be of no use, but -would rather 'do mischief. Was, the Right Hon. Gentleman so ignorant, so grossly ignorant of .ancient and modern history, as not to know that almost every other page afforded examples of the prodigies done by men armed in defence of their Country and/their Rights, even without the advan. rage of military discipline ? There could, therefore, in his opinion, be no doubt of what would be done ,by Britons in defence of a King whom they idved, a Constitution which they adored, of a Country to which they were enthusiastically attached, in de. fence, in short, of every thing that was deaf and valuable to men. Mr. WINDIIAM; in explanation said, that he had never stated that the Volunteers would be of no use, but that they would rather do mischief. Mr. H. ADDINGTON said, it was true the Right Hon. Gentleman had never said so . in distina terms, but his uniform language would admit of no _other inference. Mr. Alderman PRICE said, he rose to set the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.WINDIIAM) right upon one or two points on which he appeared to , be com. ph rely mistaken. In the first place, with regard to Subscriptions, it was perfectly true that, in many Cases very large Subscriptions had been raised, very much to the honour of chose who contributed ; but he also knew, . that these Subscriptions were not near expended. He would not enter into anydiscussion With the Right Hon. Gentleman about the merit of Volunteers; of this he was sure, that in spirit they were equal to the Rezular Army, and he begged to assure that Right Hon. Gentleman that they did not make volunteering a play.thing,they did not enter into Corps merely to wear a red coat. They were daily employed in exercising, and in acquir. ing all the instruCtion that was necessary. With regard to Committees, he. knew of no Corps that was under the controul of a Committee in Military matters. It was true that in most Corps there was ,a Committee, but they were appointed to take cote of the funds of the Corps, but not to interfere with their military business, which belonged entirely to the Commander. With regard to the proposal which had been made of giving an Adjutant to the Corps, he should be very glad to see it adopted ; but he did not see the necessity of a Field Officer. Some of the Corps in the City had appointed a mi. litary man as Adjutant, with pay equal to that 'of the Army. With regard to the high bounties,given for the Army of Reserve, he begged leave to say, that in London the average sum given was from 22 to 26 guineas a man. He had indeed heard indivi. duals talk of giving the large bounty the Right Hon. Gentleman had mentioned, but he never knew an instance in which it was given. Before he sat down . ho wished to ask,-whether the River Fencibles were included in the general Return of the Volunteers ? Mr. Secretary YORKE said, he believed the River Fencibles were considered as being under the Board of Admiralty, and therefore were not included in the General Return of Volunteers. Colonel CI? AUFORD said, that with respell to the Exemptions granted by Parliament to Volun. teers, he should not have assented to that system had he been in the House at the time it was proposed in the last Session of Parliament. Had he known it had been intended, he should have taken care to have objeded to it, for ht; considered these Exemp. tions as produdive of great evil, nut only as it took a very great body of men from the Army of Re. serve, but also gave pow‘r to certain persons, who ought not to have it, to say, whether men should or should not be subjed to the operation of the Bills for the Army of Reserve and Defence of the Coun. try. He said he was sorry that the suggestions 'of the Right Hon. Gentleman, not now present (Mr. Ptorr) were not assented to by Ministers, he meant with regard to providing a. Field °t }icer out of the Line for every Volunteer Company. He was confident that would have been an u , ..:•ful measure if adopted. The objeftion, that the Volunteer Cinps might not approve of it, he could not give way to; for if they were actuated by zeal for their Country's Cause, they would not objed to it. If they were become Volunteers not for the sake of wearing red coats, but for the purpose of serving their Country in the hour of danger, they would be glad to Wye such an Officer in every Company to assist them, and to fit them for fighting the battles of their Country. As to the abjection which the Officers,themselves were supposed likely to have, he was sure-that the (Mi. cent of the Line were desirous of being useful to their Country, and he observed also that we could spare a greater number, of. them than any Power in Europe for such a purpose, for we had a greater number in proportion to the men than any other force in Europe. As to the appointment of Adju. tants from the Line, he apprehended they could not furnish the Volunteer Corps so much assistance as some Gentlemen expened of them—certainly not so much as Field Officers might afford. The Adjutant could not instruct the Captains of the Companies of the Regiments ; but the Field Officer, as sugge ste d by the Right Hon. Gentleman, might do so, and therefore the •Adjutant out of the Line would not h e so useful to the Volunteers as a Field Officer might be. He observed, that he did not wish to say all he felt on this subjed, because what Was said upon it by others had been so much misrepresented, and particularly .that which had been uttered 'by his Right Hon. Friend near him (Mr. Wltion•Am). He had indeed been misunderstood, and consequently misrepresented ; in the Howie he had never said that 4.-)0;000 men as Volunteers would he useless. ight Hon, Friend hA never said any such thing, nor any tfting like it.; he was mutht rol - well versed in tire. l libtory of the Nations of the Earth to en lert.i in such a thought. Ile trusted too that 'he himself was not so t o tally ut-iacqu.linted ith the farce of numbers, especially of brave men, as to think that such a body would be useless. He knew the . Contrary—he knew that even undisciplined men had rendered much and very valuable service to their Country—he knew that peasants armed only with pitchforks, or any other weapon they could procure, 'had been formidable andeven terrific to a large body of men ' of perfea discipline. Of this there was a memorable instance - in La Vendee, where the Pea. sants assembled and defeated the regular well-disci. plined troops of the Republican Army of France. He knew and he had occasion to have felt, what an undisciplineddintly of men might do when they were aauared by a spirit of ardour in the cause which they espoused : this he had felt in the late un happy disturbances in a part of the United Kingdom. ' Therefore if such persons could ad with vigour in such a cause, what were we not to expe& in a cause in - which Englishmen werreengaged_ in the service of the best of Kings—in defence of the .happiest Constitution, and in vindication of their liberties, liberties better enjoyed than in any other nation upon earth ? He did not mean to say ' that such men would not achieve much, all be ever said, and all the tendency of what had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. WINDHAM) was, that the Volunteers, however brave, or how ever great their ardour, were not so efficient, nor could be made so efficient, for the service of their Country, as the Regular Army. Upon the Regular 1 Army, he said, we could rely ; f rom e x p er i ence , ,1 he said, we knew that no Army in the world was superior to it. He would not say all he thought of the English Army, but he would not refrain from saying this—That when 'we trusted to the Regular English Army, we trusted to what we had tried, and which had proved itself, he would not say su perior, but equal to that of the Enemy with whom we are to contend; therefore, he would repeat, that when we trusted to the Army, we'UMW to what we had tried : but with regard to other forces, what they might do was not known ; every body must allow it was a matter of . experiment. He would asic any Gentleman, whether he should not feel anxiety to see our Volunteers engage with the French; and he would wish to ask any Gentleman, , whether he would have any anxiety if he saw the ' Regulars engage with them ? Nobedy said that the Volunteers would be useless, but diffeent opi. nions might be entertained as to the degree of their use. He had heard of the miserable stare of the Army of France ; that they were many of them miserable Conscripts, most of them in a wretched state, and not to be compared with our Volunteers. He thought this unfounded. He thought they were as good troops as any in Europe : and if they come among us, he did not say they had the same good. ness of cause to support them, for they had not ; but if they came here, they would come under as great enthusiasm as we could feel ; they had as much enthusiasm as any that could oppose them. He therefore thought it would be better, not to talk of them as miserable Conscripts, fur they were as re- . markable for military prowess as any Troops in Europe. Here the House received a Message from the Lords, importing that the Lords had agreed to the Irish Martial Law Bill, the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill, the Small Note Bill, the Irish Oats Distillation Prohibiting Bill, the Irish i'rovision Exportation. Prohibiting Bill, the English Sugar Drawback Bill, and the Bill for snowing Compen. ' sation to Curates who may suffer liv the Clergy Residence Bill, without any amendment. Sir W. YOUNG then proceeded on the subje6l of the Volunteers now before the House : he said, he had looked into the Alas of Parliament on the subjea of the Volunteer Exemptions, and he found' that he was borne out in' what he then asserted, that the Volunteers under the 42d of the King, were of a different class in the eye of the Legis_ lature from the present Volunteers, who had no re gplation but that of the 431 of the King. The latter were a very large body of men, by whose exemption the great mass of the population of the Country was greatly affefted ; they impeded very much indeed the progress of' the Army of Reserve, for three-fourths of them were of the first class of the Defence Mt, unmarried men under - the age of thirty : this was a serious matter ; they ought nut to have these exemptions, for it was greatly in. convenient to the Country: As to the Volunteers wider the 4.2 d of the King, who were the only true Volunteers, in the proper sense of the word,,for they came forward without any view of exemp tion ; they were justly entitled to every exemption ; they were in number frum 6g,000 to 70,000, and they were a body of men, on whom the Country need not less rely fhr patriotism than for discipline; but the other great body which had been lately raised, and had entered, was nut so properly called a body of Volunteers, that name had been given to them. They were not at first to have been ex empted, either from the Militia or the Army of Reserve : by the Ad of the 57th of July no inlets. lion was expressed of exempting any of them either from the Militia, Army of Reserve, or other ter. vice ; but on the tith of August, when many Gen. tlemen had gone into the Country in hopes of serv ing it as essentially as they could by attending that House, a Clause crept into a Bill for regulating the Volunteer Cavalry, by 'which all this immense body of men were exempted froth all other services, as it was now to be interpreted by the present Bill, but which could, hardly have been then so intended, as indeed was to be gathered by the very necessity there was now of explaining that An. This was a 'matter worthy the serious attention of.the House at Some future. period. By these 300,000 men being thtis entitled to Exemption from the Militia anti the Army of Reserve, and three.fourths of them being of the 'first Class of requisition under .the Defence Act, being unmarried men under the age of thirty, ' this threw all the ballots almost upon men who had families, and they wishing to remain with and pro. vide for them, of course became eager for substi tutes, so that a great :competition arose among them, and the circa was the bounty for substitutes becatne enormous. These were matters to be con, eidered gravely, not that he wished our militetry strength to he diminished by any mearts.... no , we must continue that strengt h w hil e the affa ir, of t hi s I world wore their present aspen}. It was no matterl to us wheth er ankaparte existed or not, while I France was the military nation it was. we niliMf I bear a relative proportion to that military Power. He admitted, however, that no additi o n b . e made to the condition of any manw , faith.tn t oh i s He t militaryhen took service, up theth a that u w h o . u e l a d be e f aphol':opruuee popularity, as etc:l,3f, n M ew r. h H o:r A to o: a l i N u C e T a L a th s o s i t e at w ed ho bY k r Mr. WINDH A. 211 could never - be unpopular among , and said, that i v t4.n, a ls, t ,eil e ts, tni w antng o hd r eo t h ntio F see d cdol ja p rss u ts i b ie in, : a i e c oi . 04 ,f v ; i ‘ r dr4 t cient, • • , and Intimately acquainted With every liranCh man versed in an. of modern learning, who knew how to esteem pri. , o u ' o l l e t fo i . c nt h thee H l e i e rg e s ,liinatgdi Ithose sa ekt concluded heoenffi, ht I r i s y e: he thought entitled to all exemptions, the other to none. Mr. CALCRAFT observed on what had been said by the worthy Alderman (Mr. Alderman Pities) on the subjea . of bounties for the Army •of Re serve, who had said they did not amount in Lona . don to more than from :221,, to 7-6 1 . it was* til/el and it was laudable in the City of London to keep the bounty down by its example as much as .posae ble, but he was afraid that the effea of it had hitherto been, to keep the City of London a backia' its quota for that service. As to the Recruiting Service, which had been said to have gone on so well, notwithstanding the large bounties of the Army of Reserve, .he apprehended that to hat, arisen chiefly from the : stagnation of ,flick in Mits. cheater, Birmingham !. Leeds, She ffi eld, ointi miter, large populous mlnufaauring towns, the Case the - at.. ways at the commenceme nt of a Wars As to Volunteer syattoo, he said he was one oftbase ,Whea had great confidence in the Volunteers.. Thais, co u r ag e he took to be unquestionable, their zeal undoubted, and as to their discipline, he believed' it to approach as near to perfeEtion as could e vaere.be ex.. peaed antler all circumstan ces ; but if h to be asked his opinion as to what the Legislthatur . • ought to enaa, or Government to order, wi Leg is l ature gard to the Volunteers, 'he would say, they should, not be too nice in ' the regulations of this Force; for its efficiency would depend in a great measure upon the good-will , t em p er., spirit, patoiotism, and liberality of those who composed that formidable , and truly respettahle Force. lie thought the ex emptions had gone a great w:sy , y et he thought th,is . ought no t t now to be altered. It was true that th e - R ight Hon. Gentleman (Mr. WtN OH AM) said: th t. at the Country was not safe in their hands : he tell lfh there should he more Regulars--abut he must O 11187' sist upon it, that although the Volunteers had d iem Vit nicety of discipline, which nobody eXpetW. II to have, of the regulars, yet they posses sed enGug" it to make the Country perfealy safe: in lel Y i t ( 1 ) ( 1 0 them. He hoped therefore that no ettentlit'c y; w; be made to reduce them to the seve re rules t ha t °" cipline of real Soldiers, because, he apprehended was not necessary. ()%14' Mr. Secretary declined, making.anY v , , servation Ton the Speech of the Hon. Baronet (Sir: . , Wtootaast YOUNG), as it did not aPPLY to the 131 1 1 before the House. With respea to whet had beeo' . stated by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. CAoctarris ' la.. he knew of no opinion that :had been gtven re . tire to Bouoties.to be given in the City of London fo r the Army of Reserve. The only circumstance. • , that the ~ he knew of relating to that subjea was, Drapers' Company pr o p osed to raise 2 or 3 Secretary 00 men, as , and waited upon hint when he w at War with the proposal. He co nferred upon the subjeat with His Royal Highness the Comtnandev in Chief, and with the inspeaor-General a of Ree , f ' emits, and it not appear in g that the Com p n creased ny had any other means of raising nten than by I `Bounties, it was thought advisable that the propos sal should not be carried into effea. th Mr. CALCRAFT wished f or dog informatin as ,to number of the Army of Res erve raise n Me ehetropolis. Mr. Seeraaty YORKE said, he believed the re was a great d eficiency in the numbers furnished by the City of London and the County of Mitidlesat but it was to be 4ttriluited to the extreme xilic! of desertion, which in those places it wait vetY dill', ficult to check. . . . Mr. CALC&ArT explained. Was. Mr. GILES thoug h t the Hun. Ba ronet (Sir et YOUNG) had not sufficiently considered d, e the ndg A. of Parliament i o w hich ,h e had; eferre - which he would find that there was an eXPre" d i " tinftion made between Voluottieis accepted and v; luntary service. ire could stat e as a Clet,"thar 1 the County of Hertford the number of Volunteesers accepted was only 2800, whilst the number wi',° services were offered was 6600, and without f lArn " • - ing any exenytions whatever. The House her e . fote would not readilysuppose 1 ' men C attle fore t tat 'motto. ward merely for the purpose of vbiaininscg"—` ' • Si ' Sir A t oot AM YOUNG explained. . o'er, t Hun. • Dr. LAWRENCE defended his "' l ra 1 1 'to . . Friend (Mr. Wraostao), w h om he eoncelvowith have been calumniated, and charged Mioi ster6 v s. courting popularity, lie made several °bi n e t un. tions with respeti to Volunteer Corps r" 1 - f ° l lo ties for the Army of Reserve.. In ORO 0 , iv , former, he said Committees not only reguleteu I ' exPenditure of the money, but fixed the drill &Yr', ) chose Officers, and decided upon excuses foe non th e tendance on tield.days. As to Substitutes in !, ctleu Army of Reserve, he said that tw o had been I in the market. place at Norwich fur too guineas. It The CiIeINCELLOR of the EXCILEV! , said, that Ministers had been charged with Ilv"" n ; calumnious assertions, but against whom the chsrg.,. of calumny would most properly lie, l o e would leav_ o w the House and the Country to detertnine. As t o what had been said of courting popularity, it ' el. the bounden duty of Ministers to look to the, " ' Oro . fate of the People, and that such had bee" hi s C lot dual, he a ppealed to the Journals to prove. lid it ht . as to any idle wish for popular favour, cot said that he C , ltli fed popularity, when in the cou rse 1 d bed of fourteen months, seventeen millioos .14 , ..__ , added to the ;taxes upon the People ? Could ILP.c, said to be a popular measure keeping up the Ar m ` and NatlV ICI the extent to which they were intto7r, of Peace ? He disclaimed any base and dis,h," h i s able motives. As to what.had . been sato uy___ Nl . Right Hon. Relation (Mr. i'llt,llY APDll4l:iii:a that in every corner of theCl)lllltty 3 Sttong I t i rl l ent had ad .:en in consequence of the disparagen ,c_ao the Volunteer Force by the Right Hon. Genf! ''.',;,,, (Me. NV t vow Am) it was matter of the dell a .