The Sun. — London, England, 1844-05-21 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Ifby 20 Their'Lordships ass em bl e d a t Five o'clock. Bills. - Messengers from th e C ommons b roug h t up several : The Bi s h op of CHESTER presented several peti tions against, th e un i on o f t h e sees of St. Asaph and angor. Lord CAMPBELL presented several petitions, Praein g. the House to legalise Presbyterian mixed -marriages. LANCASTER, AND CARLISLE RAILWAY. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a r,P eti tion from the Lancaster a n d C ar li s l e R a il way sairopaoy,_praying their Lordships to facilitate the progress of this Railway Bill through Parliament. Lord BROUGHAM did not wish to interpose any nanecessary delay in the progress of this Bill. Ile must say, however, that it was rather a novel pro- I cee ding on the part of railway jobbers to present I Petition to their Lordships, praying their Lordships interfere between the two houses of Parliament, wh en a conference bad taken place between the on the subject of some particular Bill. He would just s t a t e generally the facts of the case to their ordships. He had consented to abandon his o pposition t o the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway Bill upon certain conditions. Had it not been for th ese conditions, he would have opposed the Bill in t e very stage, and he would have doted himself to ug opposition, and he would have done nothing else „nt oppose the Bill for a period of six months.— ) His His Noble I.'riends laughed, but let th en , b e s . • placed. in the same situation, and they would 4, e tt It no laughing m a tt er. I t was no laughing mat . to be d r i ven from your own home by a railway tttrq brought so near to that home as to snake it tehioninipeo!sible .to remain there—to be driven from words in which your ancestors had dwelt for up this Bill lf 9°° years. He had waived his objection to °foie for the public good, upon two conditions. One It was every onditionshadbeen performed, the other had not. been f well to say that the condition had not not eolinse4dtoit. way the opposn L'lTtoetheoeu because the House of Commons would .rrthone other House of clausel d been raisedin wh in clauser ourabl Parliament. Indeed the Right Speaker had assured him that the be r v ery much talked of in the House Ile h `" Was discussed in the Committee. ad ,hargained with the parties to the Bill to withdraw .h. should is opposition, on condition that he in n thee clause, and it was of no use for them 34 that He 7, Commons would not agree to it. should therefore oppose the Bill, as they had taken 7 1 „ 11 , 3 1 11 e• Condition on which he had taken away his o lN7 e — r 'tin. Some of the members of the Company a, most resp ec t a bl e men , an d hi s f r i en d s , an d in eth' (4. any fraud. But some one connected with eother partie s h a d procure d th e f rau d t o b e done. Ile would ask their Lordships, how would any of them like t,;' k u 'ung railwaycompany to cutthrough their grounds, e ePa waste all round their domains for three or four eears---to drive them from the mansions, and castles, 1 44 d villas,•n which their ance s t ors h a d' been domi ed for centuries—and to have their privacy broken 1 .111 9 0 n by horde s o f l a b ourers f rom every part of the 14,P ec l, Kingdom ?—(H ear an d l aug h ter. ) St il l h e th e Pledged hi s word that, on condition of obtaining li kw ela nsei he w ou ld w i t hd raw hi s oppos i t i on. B ut r ,_ onld not consent to be trampled upon by any on seism, _ .... r"")", because they were many and he was but s • (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Noble CAMPBELL said that the opposition of his and and Learned Friend might be very proper, ..o the clause might be very justifiable. But the t,PsPo_siticin to it, as he understood, was grounded on 41: but that it had been introduced, not in Commit eol nut upon bringing up the report, and that with oVotiee so that it was passed sub silentio. It was tile that ground, as explained to their Lordships in the c l a use._. that the House of Commons threw out co a l e Puse.—(llear, hear.) He was sure that no one aid T BUPpose it w as th rown out to di so bli ge hi s N o bl e o ne ' e arned Friend, for (as he said unfeignedly) no P,i c °, lll d . think of disobliging his Noble and Learned w,bo was so courteous and obliging.—(Laugh het t „ The objection to the clause was, that it ought L 0 BROUGHAM been inserted without notice. t Wrctit lIROUGIIAM said that the objectionjo 4t ,_° notice was groundless, inasmuch as the other the t le B bad assented to the clause.—(Hear, hear.) For p n e bad,....rather throw out the Bill than accept Th e A''''slnear.) Plai n ~.,L i a rquis of CLANRICARDE w i s h e d to ex taken " I 'Y he had p resen t e d the petition. He had petition ° interest in the measure, but as the d ou Zas placed in his hands he had 1,84 thought his duty to present it. He under "ad n o facts to be, the Railroad Company niitte e - °} J ee tion to the clause, but that the Corn the nat„°f. the Rouse of Commons looked upon it as in and th ere of an amendment upon a Turnpike Bill, er.efore rejected it because it had been intro- Ile ,11'1111°1d notice as required by the standing orders. th at i o rgbt so great and important a railway rao na °VA not to stop t ecause the House of Corn 4, et. 7, 1 1:41 , 1 d not pass an Act to amend a Turnpike . *gl ow ,' 'loped his Noble Friend would have no ob . gay, "" discuss this subject to-morrow, or Thu . rs ded by moving that the he Noble Marquis concluded 44%Petition should lie on the table, and that the w ith 1 of the House of Commons for' disagreeing *" - -s tue ir Lordships' amendments should be printed. .;agre ed „ I _ 4 •Kaal "i m v o l‘ i ee T . ""OUGHAM presented a petition from a ancashire, in favour of the Roman Catholic 1-- i i "Le A Bequests Bill. isThe "' A RBOUR OF PORT PATRICK. qohb,-.L„karquis of LONDONDERRY seeing the place the First Lord of the Admiralty in his the d o 'sried to know whether it was the intention of p t P r nioent to withhold this year any grant for 1 1 11114- IY o t o s k °f putting the harbour of Port Patrick krb onr goadee in a proper state of repair. If that %tit at w as not to b e k e pt up as a p ac k e t- s tation, it is %t least to be put in a proper state of repair, so 44 t1 i t( ) endanger the lives of her Majesty's subjects, with . 1;• it was not so the fault would be er • .Ikt th a t eJesty's Ministers, of whom it would he " 4)1 317 t heY would not expend the paltry sum of Oct) secure the lives of her Majesty's subjects. O Oari of HADDINGTON said that this sub `Mien e Xcited a great deal of interest. Last year ; I 'e st ate ,: Noble Friend put a similar question to him, Jeltyi a that it was not the intention of her Me ttle i Got it to take any . vote for 4over,l,llProvenient of Port Patrick, as the thou :I'nent believed that . they had done the harbour. %leea,liht°'ivards the construction of _ I f lg4ti ee of ?w t , ever, his Noble Friend had given him ° nail Lis question, he had made inquiry, and he ► that `s a communication had been made to the i ll sra nien - -- t s ti nt, , and the result of that was that the Go ey 40 au altered their former determination, and Lion, to ‘f.v.s, intended, in the course of the present ses 'tbotn."Ke a. vote for the purpose of dredging the at - t :f Port Patrick and Donaghadee. m.„a toil tae rs o f GALLOWAY expressed a hope thatei great power would be placed upon this k.,Afte s -tilhe L„ ew words from the Marquis of DOWN s th e iss-r t ,„ subject dropped. a -the .1 -4 - AND lIOLYIILAD RAILWAY. flUe • 4 t 'en "'Nis of CLANRICARDE w i s h e d t o p u t t wt _e4te s ° the Government on the subject of the a'htsberi tol e H olyhead Railway, as it was called. He - "Y obi ,rarn whether the Government would have l ll i d 4l 4, " b ( l s °_n to refer this Bill to a Select Committee, h n e r,,,abl e „ be understood that if it should pass,a eon t-p„kioeep-llni of public money would be expended by j t'apent in carrying out the project ? lu ect ion b ac :, °f DALHOUSIE said there was no ob j:,;nt of c) a . „`",e Part of the Government to the appoint . - - yrdsl i i - " e n a Committee, but he would remind their been fully dis 4ssed i il% :liat the subject had already be •A,, is tl er a ,etb Houses of Parliament. he fiftanl words from Lord KENYON, t h e sh at 'quis of CL ANRICARDE gave not i ce cra red 'nlid to-morrow move that this Bill be re -1•04iI Select Committee. E arl AND SCARBOROUGH RAILWAY VOD BILL. th and is, o 111 ' ' I RSCUE brought up the report on this e alst • ved that the Committee be postponed till tarl 'nst • ° ght ti to ILLIAM thought this Company is ; allowed to make some deviation in their tle4 1 a lb, '" 1 3 "" as e by the present plan it would pass on to en • to the private residences of many gen t •at Clifton. Ile had understood that in the to ee b a h.be 0 0 1 e a t we.en York . and Scarborough . there was IN i f ,7 single line. He would ask their Lord- I nt stiolln_e. thought it wise to allow of a single line lastariee ?—(Hear, hear.) He also under at w a s • nbtld, r rt _ Intended to close the line between Year, sg_tnu Scarborough for a certain period of the ine n 418 hoped their Lordships would look to the fr ien - d ge to ilie r nt of those schemes ; for, though he was a c t losely to , tl lwaa's, he thought the House should look Cage oe s , anc i e ,yropriety of single lines for long dis tl ef th e ? I excluding the public from the advan tyear. improved communication during parts of A ! The as "'s - " r 'inis of NORNIANBY deprecated the A eu t s t s e si r °l l . _at that stage of the Bill. CUE " ex 'ev words from the Earl of FORTES t. 'the k,CHAnation, the motion was agreed to. s°o fro tt lyns of LANSDOWNE presented a peti -4 11111 to , e imeriek, praying their Lordships to pass Thefcoin galise Art-Unions. of DAR TMOUTH presented a petition ail Art.-u n e i Royal Birmingham a n d Midl an d C ount i es Lo on to th e same effect. row 1141ve Fri BEAU MONT said th a t h e s h ou ld to-mor 11Nish übsec t• • for p a p ers relati ng t o t h e trial of a Maltese s ec unis. Lord yv FACTORIES BILL. re j-lA.RNCLUTE then rose to move the st!ipe, would no of the Factories Bill. Their Lord- Is tra o.t uilig no doubt expect some explanation froth what the Bill was, although he did not ring cle'' for (2 1 1 5- 1 1 0 ,ess, oa lard ser er;v 0,- 0 . topo i o, il)i"° for n def ej oti o rr lone h e 0 66 t unto /)°ll' tL t i l A ll : ; defi bilf 0 , ho rt h lll' o o l l , da rt, Apt idiog O t t C 0 (it 111°' • rehil ar eA. 0 . iori ti ° gras s3i , t ire Oif riA rrbC (l°rf.t.o ce 3 0°' • g ( oiti o ht isnn he 13 0 : Co' cc -sol b to 0 1 1 ,eto ring A tbe r beft 4 IZ ° ipt° .en it tif.„° ro° cror t )I° l° d ie bre- c 4 nticipate any objection to the second reading. It was a Bill to amend the lam relating to factories which was passed in 1836, and the measure was foundrd on the report of the Commissioners on that subject. He would now endeavour to explain what difference there was between the proposed and the existing law. The first alteration proposed was with reTeet to children in factories. At present children from nine to thirteen years of age worked nine hours a day. Now the present Bill, in the first place, proposed to make the age eight instead of nine, and to decrease the hours of labour to six and a half hours, making certain provisions with respect to the children going to school for a certain number of hours in each day, namely, three and a half hours in sum mer and two and a half in winter; and the utmost work for any male child under the provisions of the . new Act would be seven hours. He was sure that he need not point out to their Lordships the fact that such a provision would prevent a great deal of overworking in chil dren. The regulation by the law, as it now stood, was, that all young persons between thirteen and eighteen. should be restricted to twelve hours' labour. The present Bill made no alteration in that respect, but it restricted the labour of females and young per sons. The other provisions of the Bill affected the inspectors. In the former Bill they had the power of acting as magistrates, and making rules and regula tions ; both those powers were by the present Bill taken away. It was thought necessary that the re gulations should be fixed by law, and not be left to the discretion of the inspectors. This Bill provided that no child should be allowed to go into a factory without a surgeon's certificate, and the expense of those certificates was to be defrayed by the millowner. The Bill 'also provided that the existing fines upon millowners for infringing the provisions of the factory laws should be reduced, so as to insure their being imposed in every case where it should be necessary. The Bill also contained provisions respecting ma chinery, inasmuch as it provided that certain guards should be placed round the machinery in facto ries, so as to protect the persons employed upon it. These were the general provisions of the Bill. Their Lordships were aware that there had been considerasile difficulty in passing this Bill through the House of Commons. The Go vernment, unfortunately, were compelled to differ with some of their best supporters. But there were times when it was the duty of the Government to be firm. It was the duty of the Government to inform themselves, as well as they could, upon the particular subject before they proposed any law, and they had studiously done so with respect to this Bill. The Marquis of NORMANBY said the Noble Lord had introduced this Bill with sufficient clear ness, but, at the same time, he had not entered much into detail as to the principles upon which the mea sure had been introduced by the Government. Hav ing occupied the department of the Government be fore which this subject more immediately came, he (the Marquis of Normanby) had devoted considerable attention to it. He felt that the present Bill did not go far enough.—(Cheers.) His opinion, in spite of the ironical cheer from his Noble Friends behind him, was, that as they had once commenced inter ference with labour, the Bill did not go far enough. No doubt, in stating this opinion, he should be placed with those who had been termed idle philan thropists ; but this would not deter him from the full expression of his opinions upon the subject. He had always felt that, owing to the vast accumulation of population in the manufacturing districts, some mea sure of legislation was necessary with respect to the hours of labour of the working portion of that popu lation. He had observed that, for many years past, the owners of factories had employed women and chil dren whenever they could, to the exclusion of the male portion of the population ; and it was a very common thing, in the manufacturing districts, to see a mother and her children working, while the husband was at home, living in a state of forced idleness. He believed that a limitation of the laws of labour could, in a great measure, remedy this evil. He did not believe that a reduction in the hours of labour to ten hours would injure any branch of our manufactures. Twelve hours daily toil was too much, for it would only leave about nine hours of repose, inasmuch as one hour and a half would be daily consumed in the meals of the operative, and the other hour and a half would be consumed in going to and from the factory. Those who worked by tilling the soil did not work, on the average, twelve hours per day through the year, because their hours were limited by the light of day. Why, then, should the operatives in the manu facturing districts work longer? He (the Marquis of Normanby) was aware that, in expressing this opinion, he was differing from many of those with whom he had the happiness usually to concur, He did not intend to make any motion on the sub ject, or to offer any opposition to this stage of the Bill ; he had merely risen to enter his protest against that portion of the Bill which referred to the hours of labour, as it was his firm conviction, that the limits which had been proposed were much too great. He did not think it was necessary to do more than state his opinions upon this question. Much as he regarded its importance in itself, he regarded it much more in consequence of the manner in which it had been brought to its present state. Looking to the names by which the measure had eventually passed in the other House, he thought the means by which those names had been obtained were of great importance. The Earl of DEVON put it to the Noble Mar quis whether it was proper that they should in that House discuss the grounds upon which Members of the other llouse had given their votes ? Lord KENYON thought the Noble Marquis was in perfect order in discussing the manner in which the Bill had come up to that House ; but he was not in order in commenting on individual votes in the other House of Parliament. The Marquis of NORMANBY said that he did not mean to remark upon the individual votes. But as it had been asserted in the other House, dur ing the discussion of that Bill, that the working classes were not represented in Parliament, he felt it right to express his regret that anything should have been done to justify that statement, and to make the people discontented with the present state of the Con stitution, and to impress them with the belief that however they might be virtually represented in Par liament, their interestswere not represented. He did not think that the seat of any one Member of the House of Commons would be affected by the vote which he had given upon that question, because it did not affect the interest of those who were directly af fected. In the northern division of the county of York there was, even amongst that class of electors, a strong feeling upon the subject and there would be a great deal of surprise that the Go vernment, which had received so great a support there, should stake its existence upon that Bill. If he supported the Government, he would have thought their conduct most injudicious and unfortunate. See ing that he could gain nothing by resisting the second reading of the Bill, he would not oppose it, but con tent himself by giving his protest against it. Lord BROUGHAM would occupy the House very shortly'; but he must say that from the very beginning of his Noble Friend's speech to the end of it, he had only heard reasons why he (Lord Brougham) was opposed to the Bill in tote. He opposed a Twelve Hours' Bill and a Ten Hours' Bill,—(Hear, hear.) Those who opposed any interference with labour might go so far as to agree with the restriction of twelve hours ; but that was no reason why they should go a stage further, and vote for a ten hours He had already so fully expressed his opinions or the subject, when the Labour in Mines Bill was before the House, that it was not necessary to take up the time of the .House at any length in that discussion. His Noble Friend re gretted that the House of Commons had come to this decision, because he thought that it would be the means of convincing the working classes that the Reform Bill had not done them justice—that they were not represented in that House, because that branch of the Legislature refused to say that the peo ple should have a legislative shackle put upon them, and that they should not work as many hours as they found themselves able to do, and as they wished to work. These shackles would be as oppressive as any of those on the other side of the Atlantic. It would place those people under the shackles of an Act of Parliament, and would not leave them at liberty to exert their natural powers to their own best advantage. How would any higher class of la bourers like to be confined to ten hours of labour? But it was from the blunder 'that they would get twelve hours' wages for ten hours' work, that the whole outcry arose.—(Fear, hear.) He could only ascribe the support of f uch a measure as this to a mistaken humanity on the part of its promoters.—(Hear.) It had been said that the agricultural labourers were exempt from such toil as those engaged in the facto ries. It was sail that those had more bread and less labour. But that was not the fact, and if ever the question of the condition of labourers in the factories came before the House, he would be prepared to show that the condition of the agricultural labourers was much worse.—(Hear, hear.) He would show that they were hardly fed; badly clad, severely wrought.—(Hear, hear.) He would show that in those districts where fuel was dear, they returned— men and boys, and women, too—in inclement weather, through rain and through snow, to houses which (lid not keep out the wind and the rain—to beds which were not once dry throughout the entire winter--(Hear, hear) —and with, clothes which, in wet seasons, were always wet.—(Hear.) A boy of 17 followed the plough ; he was exposed to all species of weather, and' yet nobody thought of protecting him ; they left him to make his own bar gain, and if he was under the age that had been adverted to, he was left to the care of his parents as his natural protectors. He warned their Lordships not to interfere with the provisions of nature which - bad implaeted in parents the love of their children. The Legislature ought to interfere between THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MAY 21, 1844. parent and child, the effect of which would inevitably be to deaden the natural feelings of nature. The present Bill had made a great change in the law with respect to factories—it had provided with respect to women that they should not work over a certain num ber of hours, supposing that a woman was net com petent to make a bargain as well as any one else. He would not object to the Bill further, except enter ing his protest against it, believing that the best course to adopt would be to leave those who laboured in factories to legislate for themselves as to the time they should work.—(Hear, hear.) The Marquis of NORMANBY explained. The Earl of WINCIIILSE A. considered this Bill to be a great improvement on the present law, but he could not but express his regret that the limitation of the labour of children in factories had not been re duced to ten hours. lie believed that the atmosphere they breathed was of the most pernicious character. They could not compare the agricultural labourer with the manufacturing labourer, because the former breathed fresh air while the other inhaled the most obnoxious vapours. He thought the Legislature had very justly established the principle of interference.. Ten hours was the extent of labour which the great body of the agricultural labourers in this country underwent. Such a picture of misery among the agricultural labourers, as the Noble Lord had drawn, did not, and could not exist ; but he trusted the time would come when the manfacturers themselves would find it to their advan tage to limit the hours of labour of children in their factories. _ _ Lord CAMPBELL supported the Bill. He could not agree with his Noble Friend that the Legislature ought not to interfere, because he thought there were cases in which the Legislature ought to interfere with labour. He thought they could not safely go further in the reduction of labour than twelve hours ; and he believed that there never was an instance of less labour than that of the manufacturers of this country, with the exception of the case alluded to by Sir Thomas More with respect to Utopia.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lotd, having read an extract from the writings of Sir Thomas, proceeded:— Until his Noble Friend could persuade him that the statement of Sir Thomas More with respect to Utopia was correct he (Lord Campbell) should persist in supporting the Twelve Hours' Bill. The Earl of HADD IN GTON said that her Majesty's Government had been accused of inconsistency with respect to this measure. He could not for a moment understand upon what ground this assertion had been made. It had been said that her Majesty's Ministers, in the other House of Parliament, were exceedinglyan x ions that their supporters should give votes in accordance with the wishes of their constituents, and they de termined upon relying for support with respect to that Bill upon their political opponents. Now, he could not allow this foolish assertion to go forth with out protesting, in his place in Parliament, against it. A more absurd proposition was never put forth, for it was ridiculous to suppose that any Government could resort to such a feeble attempt to obtain support for any measure whatever. 'The Earl of MINTO objected to this measure, not on the ground of its not going far enough, but on the ground that it went a great deal too far. He was entirely opposed to any interference with adult la bour whatever. The Earl of lIADDINGTON and the Marquis of NORMANDY briefly explained. Lord WHARNCLIFFE, in reply, denied that the Government had used any influence to turn the majority in the other House of Parliament in their favour. He believed that the agitation which had been got up in the country upon this question had been got up for improper purposes. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to he committed on the 31st inst. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 20. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. NEW WRIT. On the motion of Sir J. CHETWODE, a new writ was ordered for the - borough of Buckingham, in the room of Sir Thomas Fremantle, who, since his election had accepted the office of Secretary at War. The Whitehaven Railway Bill was read a third time and passed. SHEFFIELD. ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE, AND MANCHESTER RAILWAY. On the motion that this Bill be read a third time. Mr. ESTCOURT said, that an arbitration clause had been introduced into this Bill, which, if passed, he thought would establish a dangerous precedent. He would, therefore, suggest that the third reading of the Bill be postponed for a fortnight, in order that a person might be sent down to Ashton, by the Board of Trade, to settle the disputed point, and that a clause founded upon his report should be in troduced into the Bill. not aware, from the notice, of the extent to which the Right Hon. Gentleman intended to go. He confessed he did not see why greater facilities should be afforded to speculators of this kind than to any others. It had been proved before the Committee that one hundred labourers had received five shillings each for signing five different names, subscribing 5,0001., in order to make out the list for the prospectus. That was by no means a solitary case. Nov he could not see any inconvenience, when a rail way was to be constructed, in having the subscription lodged in Exchequer bills. He thought that 10 per cent. was not a large sum to deposit. He had doubts as to the propriety of making these ex ceptions in favour of Railroad Bills. lie asked that be - fore assent to this proposition, the evidence on which the Committee had determined should be laid upon the table. lie thought this discussion should be postponed until the evidence should be before the House. Mr. LABOUCHERE despaired of being able to add anything to what had fallen from the. Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade. He agreed with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that when these undertakings were little understood it was right to have 10 per cent. deposited, but now that they were better understood such a regulation was no longer necessary. At a time too when so many persons were wanting employment, it was es pecially desirable to encourage these undertakings. lie could confirm the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman that the subject had been fully discussed in that Committee before the recommendation had been agreed to. Sir R. PEEL admitted that the House was not bound by the recommendation of the Committee, but still, when they had appointed a Select Committee, although their recommendation was not binding on the House of Commons, he thought it was at least entitled to the respectful consideration of the House. The Committee was composed of gentlemen ad mirably qualified to decide upon the subject, and who had the advantage of deliberating upon it ; but he took higher ground upon this occa sion. The carrying of this motion would materially facilitate the passing of the Bill for the construction of the Dublin and Cashel Railway.—(Hear, hear.) This railway had been undertaken without any Government grant. It had been undertaken by persons of every party in politics. It was of great importance that the example set in this instance should be encouraged. It would tend to give employ ment to the labouring classes in Ireland ; and he hoped, before the close of the session, that the Royal assent would be given to a Bill for the formation of a railway between Dublin and Cashel.—(Cheers.) Mr. VERNON SMITH wished for the postpone ment of the discussion ; he thought the reason given by the Hon. Gentleman ought not to influence the House. Mr. GLADSTONE said the recommendation did not extend to more than three or four lines. Mr. R. FERGUSON said that keeping the order as it at present stood was a practical fraud, and he proved that it did not afford the slightest security. After a few words from Mr. MASTERMAN, Mr. HUME replied—He had heard no answer to his objection, and he should, therefore, take the sense of the House on the question. Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman had mis understood him; he had not supported the recom mendation for any specific Bill, but for the advantage it would give to the formation of railways in Ireland generally. Mr. WARBURTON supported the motion for the postponement. Mr. HUME thought the question ought to be ad journed till they got the evidence taken before the Committee printed. The Hon. Gentleman moved, that the debate be adjourned. Mr. GISBORNE thought, if the question was put off upon the ground stated by the Hon. Member for Montrose, it would have the effect of putting it off till the end of the session. He hoped the House would at once agree to the resolution. After some observations from Mr. Hulls an d M r. GLADSTONE, the amendment of Mr. Hume was with drawn, and the motion was agreed to. nication with private individuals on such a subject. If in the subsequent communications which they had had with such parties they had seen reason to alter their views, they would have had no hesitation in proposing the necessary alterations, but having had the opportunity of communication, he was bound to say, that the Government saw no reason whatever to modify the plan which he had proposed on May 6. All the principles he then laid down he was prepared to stand by ; he had seen the proprietors of Bank Stock, the Directors of the Bank, representatives of . . , oint-stock and private banks, and he was not enabled to gay that the Government felt any willingness to depart from the plan proposed; and he must ask the sense of the House upon that plan as ori ginally proposed. But there were a few observations on the_ details of the plan which he must now make. Ile had proposed that the issues of the Bank of Eng land should be made partly on securities and partly on bullion ; the issue on securities to be limited to 14,000,0001., and the remainder on bullion. But there might be circumstances in which the Bank might be required to in crease its issues ; supposing that the circulation of private joint-stock banks should, from failures or voluntary agreements, be reduced from eight millions to four millions a month, the Bank might be re quired to increase its issues in order to sup ply the void thus created. That issue he pro posed should be made upon securities, and that only after a communication made to the Government, and with the consent of the First Lord of the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the President of the Board of Trade. He did not reserve that power from any distrust of the principles he had laid down, but to meet the particular case of the concession on the part of banks of issue, and the necessity of the Bank of England, supplying the deficiency with its own notes. At the same time he considered it advisable, if pos sible, to prevent all interference in this matter on the part either of the Executive or the Representative Government. Yet, at the same time he considered it would not be advisable to give the Bank the power by law of increasing its circulation except in certain cases. He was not quite clear that in every case in which there should be a void created by the with drawal of other circulation, it ought to be in the power of the Bank to increase its circula tion on securities.—(Hear, hear.) Suppose the case to be as it was at present, that_there_was a large amount of bullion (about sixteen millions) in the coffers of the Bank, the Bank would have a circulation of about thirty millions—namely, sixteen millions in bullion and fourteen millions in securities. Now, of the circulation of the sixteen millions of bullion, the greater part would be dormant in the coffers of the Bank, for about twenty-two millions would be all that would be required for the circulation of the country. Now, in such a case, if a void were created —say in Cornwall, for instance—by the withdrawal of 200,0001. of country bank notes from circulation, he was not prepared to say that the Bank ought at once to increase its circulation upon securities; but if hereafter it should be necessary for the Bank to increase its circulation on secu tities, he thought that there should be some check upon that power. He therefore proposed in the preamble of the clause to recite what grounds in the opinion of Parliament would justify the Bank in increasing its issue on securities. These were—first, the failure of a country bank; secondly, the with drawal by a country bank of its issues ; or thirdly, an undertaking on the part of a country bank to withdraw its circulation if the Bank of England would substitute its notes in the room of those of the country bank. This recital in the preamble would show what was the intention of Parliament. He proposed that the Bank, in case it should consider it desirable to make an increase in its circulation, should not be permitted to do so, ex cept upon application to the Executive Government, and that such consent should, be given by her Ma jesty in Council, such consent to be pub lished immediately afterwards in the London Gazette. He preferred that to giving power to the Bank under any circumstances to increase its issues, though he was certain that while the present management of the Bank continued, that power would not be taken ad vantage of; but it was desirable to have a check, and he therefore proposed that they should not increase their securities, except with the sanction of the Council, and not to permit an increase of se curities, except on the distinct condition that the amount of all securities should not ex ceed two-thirds of the amount of issues—that was —that the issues on the increase of securities should be in conformity with the original principle, and should be reserved if the bullion amounted to one-third of the total issues. There was another point of great im portance connected with the issues of the Bank of England, to which he did not advert on the last occa sion. The question was, what was the definition of " bullion ?"—(Hear)—whether did it include silver as well as gold, and whether the Bank could issue notes or silver as well as gold. It appeared from the returns made by the Bank, that with them bullion meant silver as well as gold. Should they include silver in the amount of bullion upon which it should be lawful for the Bank to issue notes. This was very important. They had not entered into any engagement with the Bank on the subject, so that they were perfectly free. He knew their strict and rigid ad herence to the principle laid down would confine the issue of notes to the possession of gold alone. If they limited the issues to the possession of gold alone, it would not necessarily deprive the Bank of the posses sion of silver, because the Bank might appro priate a portion of the banking funds to the possession of silver ' • and abate silver in its banking department ; but as this give no re turn, he thought it was hardly fair to expect the Bank would accede to it, however enlightened their views might be. If they prevented the Bank issuing any portion of their notes upon silver, they must expect the Bank would hold very little silver for the public accommodation. He had given some consideration to this subject, and he believed that considerable inconvenience must arise if they altogether prevented the Bank from issuing any portion of their notes upon silver. He was not now speaking of any compromise of the great principle that gold was the only standard. The only legal pay ment by the Bank should be in gold. . if a person presented 50/. in notes he should have a right to demand fifty sovereigns in gold, and if he took gold of the real standard weight, he should have a right to demand notes in exchange. The transactions of the public with the Bank, so far as gold was concerned, should be perfectly unrestricted, making a reduction of about lid. difference in the gold to be delivered in exchange for notes, and the gold to be received from the Bank upon the demand of a person presenting the notes. That was to say every person should have a right to sell gold to the Bank, and demand payment in notes, receiving 31. 17s 9d. per ounce for gold he presented, and that he should have a right to demand gold in exchange for his notes, receiving at the rate of 31. 17s. 10id., thus allowing lid. for the expense of coinage. Of course he pro posed to make no alteration whatever in that respect. Every man was to be unfettered in his right to de mand gold in exchange for his notes. But the ques tion was, ,should he permit partial dealing with the Bank with respect to the receiving of silver. He hoped the country would not admit the substitution of silver for gold, but at the same time they were exposed to the inconvenience which arose from other countries adopting silver as the standard. At present the silver was sent out of this country in exchange for gold, and the gold was deposited in the Bank. If they would permit the Bank to pay those who were willing to receive it in silver, when the Bank thought it expedient to do so, the charge of that export and import would be saved. There was another reason why silver should not be altogether excluded. Remittances were now made to a very considerable extent from America and China in silver. If they prevented the Bank from issuing silver altogether, there would be no demand for it in this country, and it must seek a market in foreign countries. Then, again, there was a great facility for conducting universal transactions with some parts of the world, particularly with India and China, in having a stock of silver. If a part, had the option of getting silver from the Bank, he would be enabled to get remittances when they were necessary from India or China instead of having to send to the Continent for it. it appeared to him that it would give facilities to commerce, if they permited the Bank to issue some portion of its notes upon silver, treating silver as a valuable commodity, to be dealt with according to the option of the Bank. Silver had now ceased to be a standard of value alto gether. Formerly ss. 2d. an ounce was the Mint price for silver, but there was no reference now to 'that standard. Their silver coin was a mere token, and ss. 2d. an ounce did not at all designate its value. The amount of legal tender was limited to 40s. ; at the same time he thought there w o uld be a great advantage in having a stock of silver in this country which would be used for the rectifi cation of the exchange. He was inclined to propose that the Bank should be allowed to issue a portion of its notes upon silver, but that the amount upon which it should so issue notes should not exceed one-fourth of the amount which it issued upon gold; that the Bank should issue notes upon four millions of gold and one million of silver. But then if the Bank found it necessary to increase its supply of gold, it must itself be responsible for the loss sustained in the conversion of the amount of silver into gold, because no legal demand on the Bank could be satisfied in silver ; the Bank must, therefore, run the risk of the loss sustained by its conversion. Still requiring that gold, and gold alone, shall be received in payment of a debt—still maintaining the great principle upon which this measure was founded, he proposed. to give to the Bank this advantage in rectifying the exchanges, and to SAVINGS' BANKS. Mr. HUME gave notice that he would to-morrow ask for returns relating to savings' banka and Go vernment annuities. Sir R. FERGUSON moved for a return of the expense of each district lunatic asylum in Ireland for the year ending the 31st of March, 1844, showing the total annual expense, the annual average expense of each patient, the number of patients from each, and the sum charged to each county in the year ; also of the number of patients in each on the first day of April, 1843, the number admitted, the number discharged, distinguishing those discharged as cured, as relieved, as harmless and incurable, and the number transferred to workhouses ; the number who have died, and the total discharged, the number in each on the 31st of March, 1844, the number to whom admission was refused, and the average number in each asylum in each year ; also of the total expenditure in each asylum in the year, the total cost per head per annum, the expenses in furniture, bedding, and linen, the expen diture in fixtures, additions, and alterations, work men's bills, &c., the total expenditure in clothing, the total expenditure in salaries and servants' wages, the total expenditure in food only, the cost per head per annum for fea 1, the cost per head per week for food, and the cost per head per day, all calculated from the average number of patients during the year ; also of the particulars of each salary, and servants' wages, and the total amount of the same for the year; also of the number admitted into each asylum be tween the opening and the 31st of March, 1844, the numbers discharged or recovered, the numbers dis charged or taken away by their friends as relieved, or harmless and incurable, or transferred to workhouses within that period; the number of relapsed cases, and the number who have died within that period, and the total number remaining in each asylum on the 31st of March, 1844. The Hon. Baronet also moved for similar returns from the Cork lunatic asylum ; and also a return of the number of insane persons in each workhouse in Ireland, on the 31st day of March, 1844, with the estimated annual expense of each, and the total in public lunatic asylums and workhouses in Ireland, on the 31st day of March, 1844.—Ordered. Mr. HUME asked the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite if he had a n y objection to lay on the table of the House the correspondence between the Ame rican Minister and the British Government, relative to the annexation of Texas to the American Union ? The Right Hon. Gentleman would perceive that the whole of that transaction took place in con sequence of the interposition of Great Britain with Texas with respect to slavery. Sir R. PEEL was not prepared to lay on the table of the House any correspondence with respect to any treaty which had been signed relating to the annexa tion of that country. Mr. HUME did not want the correspondence re lating to a treaty having reference to the annexation of Texas. What he wanted was the correspondence which related to putting down slavery in Texas. Sir B. PEEL wished to know if it were good po licy to publish just at the present moment that which had been published b y ano ther Government, and which could answer no goo d purpose ? He thought it objectionable on principle, unless they were pre pared to follow up the exampl e which had been set them by another Government. DISSENTERS' CHAPELS BILL. Sir R. INGLIS wished to get some information on the order in which the business of the House would be taken. He was anxious to know when the Dis senters' Chapels Bill would be brought on? Sir R. PEEL said it was impossible for him to say on what day the Bill would come on. He was anxious to make as much progress as possible with the important measure which was to be founded on the resolutions which he would move that night, viz., the Bank Charter Acts Bill. He therefore, thought that any discussion which might be taken on the Dissenters' Chapels Bill, should be taken on the second reading rather than in any other stage, and he would not take the third reading before Whitsuntide. With respect to any further arrange ments which would be necessary with respect to Government Bills, he would state them after Whit suntide. BANK CHARTER. The House then went into Committee on the Bank of England Charter Acts. Mr. B. ESCOTT presented a petition from the in habitants of the Cities of London and Westminster, praying the House to repeal the Currency Law of 1819. Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a petition from Birmingham to the same effect. Sir R. PEEL said he should be very unwilling to interpose any o b serva tions before th e commencemen t of the discussion upon the resolutions which he should move that evening, if he did not think it would be for the convenience of Members who were likely to take part in that discussion, and for the advantage of the discussion itself, were he to make ex planations on some points with respect to which it was probable questions would be put—points relating rather to the details than to the general prin ciples of the measure. He was sure the house would bear in mind that it was necessary for her Majesty's Government to frame their measure, and for him, as the organ of that Government, to make the statement which he did on the 6th of May, without the estion were entitled advantage o o n f cos such u n a l c a t q i u ng with parties whose to great weight. In his opinion deep and entire secresy in all matters relating to money was absolutely necessary. Making every concession to the honour and integrity of individuals in matters affecting the monetary interests of this country, the Government must be contented with availing itself of such information as the evidence taken before Committees and their_ own experience might supply. They must not enter into commu- Mr. LABOUCIIERE, as Chairman of the Corn mittee, was inclined to agree with the Hon. Gentleman in this proposition, inasmuch as he believed that the substantial object for which the Committee had been appointed had been accomplished. The simple question was how the land which the Company were not about using should be appro priated. He was obliged to the Hon. Member for bringing the matter before the House, and also thought that his views were the best and soundest that had been taken of the matter. After a few words from Mr. PARKER and Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET, the third reading was post- poned for a fortnight. . The third reading of the Ashton and Staleybridge Railway Bill was likewise postponed for a fortnight. DUBLIN AND CASHEL RAILWAY. Mr. HAMILTON presented a petition from the Grand Jury of Dublin, in favour of the line of Rail way between Dublin and Cashel. Mr. GLADSTONE rose to move that as much of the Fourth Report of the Select Committee on Rail • ways as related to the alteration of the 33d standing order be adopted by the House. The adoption of this proposition was a matter of great importance to all parties connected with railway property. In proposing the repeal of that part of the standing order which related to deposits, he by no means wished to cast the slightest imputation on the stand ing order itself. When made, it might have been the best which the House could adopt, and he had no doubt it was a wise and salutary provision. —(Hear.) Its operation had been this, that money was ad vanced, and so far the House had a guarantee that the parties connected with the Bill were acting bona fide. But, with regard to the persons by whom the money was to be deposited, the Standing Order was not complied with, for the money was principally advanced by persons interested in the new scheme who had the command of capital. The standing order was passed with a view of dis countenancing unsound speculations, but it operated also to check those speculations which were sound in themselves, and at a time when trade was depressed, when it was rather desirable to stimulate undertakings of this description. So far as regarded those periods which were not periods of active speculation generally the reduction of the deposits would produce almost unmixed good. It might be asked what security had they except from the deposits ? His answer was, they did not propose to do away with the deposits altogether, but to reduce them, and the great advanthge of deposits was not so much in their amount as in their being deposits of any amount. But he thought it would be necessary that the House should take some measures to make a more strict examination into Railway Bills than heretofore —that they should look more narrowly into the public reasons and objects of such Bill than they were previously accustomed to do—(Hear) —because he admitted that if it was probable they should continue for future years to abide by the same unregulated proceedings with regard to Railway Bills, which prevailed to a great extent up to the present time, the proposition which he now made, although it might be deserving of adoption on some grounds, would, on the whole, be liable to grave objections. He was not now prepared to explain in definite terms the precise nature of the measure to which he referred, because its precise nature was now occupying the anxious attention of the Committee to which that House had delegated inquiry upon the whole subject of railways ; but he did say that some measure for the examination of railway schemes was requisite, and it was because he believed that proposition to be in disputable, that he ventured to put it to the House that they might proceed so far as to part with a cer tain portion of the security which they had hitherto possessed. The proposition which he now made to the House would have the effect of assimilating the rule of the House of Commons to the rule which subsisted in the House of Lords, and he had been apprised on good authority that that rule was not adopted by the House of Lords without mature consideration, which he thought an additional recommendation for the adop tion of his proposition. He therefore begged leave to move that the standing order No. 33 be rescinded. There was another matter to which he wished to refer. It had been suggested that the parties, instead of being obliged to deposit money, should be allowed to deposit Exchequer bills or other public securities. It ap peared to those parties that they were obliged to leave money in an unfruitful state when it was thus deposited. But there was nothing in the Act of Parliament which should prevent the invest ment of those deposits in the public secu rities after the deposits had been made. He did not think it would be expedient that Parlia ment should require the money to lie without pro ducing interest, because that would be imposing a pecuniary fine. Such was not the case as the law stood at that moment, and therefore the Committee had not made any recommendation. The Clerk having read the Order at full length, Mr. HUME said he had listened with great attention to what had fallen from the Right lion. Gentleman, but, looking at the evils which the stand , ing order was intended to prevent, he had great i doubts as to the propriety of abrogating it. He was merchants for making their remittances to India and China, and other places, which he feared must be given up if they rigorously per sisted in confining their issues to gold, and gold alone. Ile would now proceed to other parts of his explanation, which referred to joint-stock banks and private banks. Ile proposed that every bank which had, on the 6th of May last, the privilege of issuing notes should continue to exercise that privi lege as long as it thought proper. lie proposed that the stamp•otfice should make out immediately an esti mate of the amount which each bank of issue had issued in the two years last preceding the 6th of May, and that every banking establishment having this privilege should continue in possession of it to a limited amount till Par liament should otherwise determine. He proposed, also, that every bank should make a daily return to the Government of the amount of its issues, from which daily return the stamp-office should draw up a weekly return, to be published in the Gazette, or some journal which should ensure equal publicity. Ile proposed to make a modification of his plan with respect to the excess of the daily circulation of such banks. Thus, instead of taking the circulation of each day, he pro posed, to avoid penalties, to take the average of the year. Thus, if a bank issued on one day 50/. more than its maximum, and on another day 501. less, that bank should not be subjected to penalties. lie proposed that the stamp-office should also fix the day in the following week on which it would be most con venient to publish the circulation of distant banks in the week preceding. This would in all cases be regulated by the distance of each bank from the metropolis. There had been some cases in which there had been a union of banks. In these cases the returns would be made in such a way as to cause the least inconvenience. He had been asked what he intended to do with joint-stock branch banks. lie had been asked if joint-stock banks were to be allowed to add to the number of their branch banks. His answer was that they might ; but that they were not to increase the average maxininnt of their issue on that account. It was but jii;t that there should be no objection to this consolidation of the banks, and that the issues should amount to the aggregate amount of both banks. With regard to the number of branches, he thought the law required amendment in this respect.— (Hear, hear.) He thought it would be for the interest of the banks themselves that there should not be so many branches, because it was a source of great expense. At present the law required for the payment of duty only on four branches. lie would not object to the estab lishment of new branches ; but he would require a payment of 30/. on every new branch established. lie had been asked if he would permit the substitution of the son for the father, and allow bim to take the father's place. Certainly he would. All he wished was that the banks should give guarantees for the continuance of their privileges, but should not attempt vexatious inter ference in private transactions.—(Hear, hear.) He had been asked if he would interfere if there were five new partners amongst six. It was like the old stocking that was darned, of which nothing of the old stocking re mained. His answer was that he could not interfere with the sale and transfer of banks. If he made a law on the subject it would be evaded. Ile had been also asked whether he would allow those bankers who now circu- laced Bank of England notes to substitute their own paper for the Bank of England paper, and take the average of the two years. lie did not propose to permit any such arrangement. But then he proposed that the 13a - nk of England should grant those banks accommoda tion on the most favourable terms. The Bank of Eng land had transactions with those banks of a double cha racter. It permitted them, in some cases, to open a discount account at a rate of three per cent. In other cases tho banks have given one per cent. on the amount of bank notes in circulation. The Bank proposed to put an end to the three per cent. account, and to substitute the one one per cent. for the three per cent., and the Bank of England were quite prepared to enter into engagements with the banks issuing its paper for this purpose. lie thought it right to make this public declaration on this subject. lie did not think there was any other point of importance which required explanation; and here he might terminate his observations, and permit the House to resume the dis cussion, but that he had been told his chain of argu ment on the former occasion was incomplete— that there was no necessary connexion between his premises, which some readily admitted, and his conclusion— that he did not show a necessity for interfering with the circulation of country banks and of joint-stock banks, or of establishing a central bank of issue, and giving increased control to the Bank of England. He was not conscious that any link in the chain was wanting, because he had at tempted to show that competition among the issuers of notes was a bad principle, that the same arguments did not apply to that branch of commerce which applied to others. He had shown that unlimited competition in the issue of notes was had, from the example of America. If they would let him go to the colonies he could bring forward greater proof that the principle was a bad one; and he would now try to bring it to their conviction, from the experience furnished both by England and Wales, that if they were wise they would take security against unlimited competition in issue ; they would increase the control of the superintending banks, and thus prevent those terrrible alternations and vicissitudes in that medium which was to regulate the value of every thing, and from which they had so griev ously suffered. Now, he would take the five great periods when this principle of convertibility had been in danger ; and he would attempt to show them that that danger had arisen from the unwillingness or incompe tency of country bankers—he excluded joint-stock banks —to contract their issue. There were, in fact, five great periods-1825, 1832, 1835, 1836, and 1839. In Novem ber 1823, the Bank was possessed of bullion to the amount of 13,760,000/. In November, 1925, it was reduced to 3,012,0001. Now, it was quite clear that there ought to have been a great reduction in the amount of circulation. lle knew some persons thought he was entering into a useless conflict by attempting to demonstrate that ; but pamphlets, based on the oppo site principle, were issued every day. There was one published that very day—" A Metallic Currency a Bar rier to the Progress of Civilisation, and the Primary' Cause of Restrictions on International Intercourse, with Suggestions for placing the Currency of Britain on a new basis." That basis was a paper currency, which was said to be adequate to the growing demands of the age. here was the old doctrine that the State might issue whatever it pleased. But he assumed that the great majority of that house were in favour of one staudard, and that standard a metallic one. If that principle were right., thare ought in 1825 to have been a reduction in the amount of circulation ; but, in stead of diminishing, the notes of the country banks had increased from four millions to eight. In 1834, the bullion in the Bank of England amounted to 9,849,000/., in 1837 it had diminished more than 4,000,000/. Did the circulation of the country banks decrease during the latter period ? No, it increased—in 1834 the circulation of the country banks was about 10,000,0001., in 1837 it had increased to 11,310,0001. In August, 1836, when the country was on the verge of a crisis in monetary affairs, the circulation of the coun try banks was more than 12,000,000/.—(llear, hear.) What he wanted to show was that during these periods of great embarrassment, the country banks, so far from sympathising in the embarrassment, were daily increas ing in circulation, and thus aggravating the evil. On the 26th of June, 1838, the bullion in the Bank of Eng gland was 9,722,000/, in June, 1829, it was reduced to 4,344,000/, whilst the circulation of the country banks instead of decreasing had increased from 11,740,000/. more than 12,000,0001., when the Bank of England had only 4,000,000/ in its coffers. Making every allowance for improvidence on the part of the Bank of England (and he did not wish for a moment to defend that bank where it was liable to the charge), it was quite clear that the country banks were, even in times of monetary difficulties regulated by prices, and that their increased circulation only added fuel to the fire. The country banks had no doubt rendered great service, but he asked their advocates to remember that when such disasters occurred as must be now fresh in the mind of every lion. Gentleman who listened to him, and occurred too through the want of sympathy between the country banks and the Bank of England, it must be clear that caution was requisite, that they had to legislate not against the use but the abuse of country banks, and that legislation on the subject, in some shape or other, was imperatively necessary, in order to put a stop to improvident circu lation.—(Bear, hear.) When he looked back to the his tory of private banks for the last thirty years, ho was only surprised that it was reserved for the 20th of May, 1844, to take precautionary measures.—(Hear, hear.) He would read to the House, from a return, the number of private banks which had become bankrupt within a very short time. In 1840 there were twenty-four bank ruptcies of private banks—twenty four bankruptcies of pri vate banks in one year ! In 1841 there were twenty-six ; in 1842 twelve; and in 1843 eleven. And as an illustration of the system, he would inform them, that out of the twenty-four banks, seventeen paid no dividends —seven. ! -- se What teen out of twenty-four banks paid n o dividends an intensity of individual suffering must lav lt , l b v e a e s n said pro duced by these failures.—(Hear, h that the people might have refused t e o ai. t . a ) ke their notes, But what was the poor farm er or retail dealer to do . ? What choice bad he ? This description of persons had It was impossible for the nll' option.—(hear , hear.) e to let the occasion pass without giving some se curity against the recurrence of these evils. A return had been made of t he number of bankruptcies from the Bankruptcy Court from April, 1839 to 1844, and he would read to the h ouse extracts from thi s return, in ' order to show the nature and cause of these bankruptcies. In the first instance, the cause of bankruptcy was over -speculation in Spanish bonds. A bank in a co untry town, in which everything appeared to be going on well, and in which the utmost confi dence was reposed, was at th e same time engaged in a most hazardous speculation in Spanish Bonds, and when the sudden crash came upon the bank it could pay no dividend. In the second instance the banker was a spirit-merchant, and the cause of his bank ruptcy was alleged to have been paying his father's debts. There was no dividend in this case either. In the third case it was bad speculations too, and there was no dividend. In the fourth instance the bankruptcy was occasioned by loss on railway speculations. These bankrupts supplied the medium of exchange—they were not trading in capital—they were converting credit into money, and then entering into great railway ' speculations. In the fifth case the bankrupt had suc ceeded to considerable property, he had mortgaged his estate, and overdrawn his private accounts, issued pro missory notes to tho amount of 14,0001., and, after ab sorbing the whole profit of the bank, failed, without being able to make any return to his creditors. In the sixth case the bank, although apparently going on fa vourably, had been insolvent for many years ; at length it became bankrupt from having lost large sums in sugar refining, and 66,0001. by a commercial house in Glas gow. In the seventh case Ale bank was conducted by the uncle and the nephew, and the nephew dissipated 100,0001. In 1838 the uncle died, leaving a large for- tune to his relatives, and in 1840 the nephew committed suicide when the frauds were about to be disco vered. In the eighth case, a bank failed with liabilities to the amount of 157,950/.—no dividends. How much did the assets amount to ? Just 20'.— (Laughter, and cries of " Hear, hear.") And yet there were persons to he found who would stand up and say this system was perfect, and required no change. Now it might be thought that it was impossible to exceed this, but he would give them one case more. In the ninth in stance, the fiat was made out on the 12th of July 1942 ; no dividend had yet been made ; but the creditors had this consolation, that 750/. had been made by race horses.—(Great laughter.) Now he proposed to take sonic steps to purify this system. He did not wish to injure existing interests • but if the safety an d we lf are o f the community required a change, he thought the present proprietors of private banks would have no just right to protest against the establishment of joint-stock banks on a safe and sure foundation on paid- I up capital. lie had shown the House that it was im possible to allow the present system of unlimited com petition to go on. He did not object to increased com petition, but to the principle of coining mere credit into money without depositing security.—(Hear, hear.) Such a system he believed was not in anywise inter woven with the prosperity of this country. It was said that great inconvenience would be suffered from the pro posed restriction—perhaps there might be some, but that would be but a slight argument against any change. It was further urged that the people were not habituated to the Bank of England; that there would be a great objection to take Bank of England notes; and that agri cultural prices would fall if accommodation could not be obtained from the country banks. He apprehended that these fears were merely visionary. Now at present the Bank of England had a monopoly of circula tion and issue within sixty-five mil(s of the metropolis. Now this radius included most of the im portant agricultural districts, either all or a portion of the following agricultural districts:—Essex, Kent, Suf folk, NOrfolk, Hampshire, Oxfordshire, Northampton shire, Buckinghamshire, and dfordshire. Now the total amount of issue within this district, by banks, other than the Bank of England, was 1,000,3291., which showed that no great advantage had been taken of private banks. He had now laid down the principles on which her Ma jesty's Government had determined to act. The time was w now come when some check must be placed to pre vent the recurrence of those evils. The proposed measures would be adopted with a perfect regard to the convenience of the subject, and a perfect cmisistency with liberal treatment to existing interests, but, above all, to prevent those shocks upon the commerce and agriculture of the country which had hitherto proved so ruinous. He trusted tkat the sense and feeling of the House would be entirely with him in making a just compromise, and in placing this check upon the recurrence of those evils which, he trusted, would tend ultimately to the establishment of sound and just legislation —(Cheers.) Mr. C. WOOD said that, as he had been chairman of the Committee of Banks of Issue, he would say a few words to the House. He thought it was of the highest importance that a principle should be laid doe n by which the monetary system should be guideal.—(llear, hear.) The last time an attempt had been made to regulate the currency was in 1819. By that measure a return was made to a metallic standard, and he hoped it would continue. None of the metals was so unchangeable as gold, and that alone was a reason with him why he preferred a gold standard to any other. Ile believed those who were anxious for a silver standard were so with a view to depreciation, for silver had fallen more in proportion than gold. At the present moment there was reason to believe the supply of gold was increasing faster than the supply of silver, and if that were so, those who were anxious for a depreciation ought to be cautious how they changed the standard from gold to silver. The ounce of gold was at present valued at 31. 17s. 101 d., and the pound in gold contained 123 grains and a fraction, and by that he hoped they would abide. The Hon. Gentle man referred to some evidence which had been given before the Bank Committee, of which he was chairman, and said that the system of free trade in banking had been followed by the most disastrous consequences in America.. In 1830 there were 329 banks in the United States, with a capital of 145,000,000 dollars, and an issue of 61,000,000 dollars. In 1837 it had in creased to 677, being more than double ; the capital was 378,000,000 dollars, and the circulation had more than trebled, being 186,000,000. But in the May of that year cash payments had been suspended through the Union. All the evils against which they were anxious to provide had desolated that country from one extremity to the other. But if they looked to what had taken place in this country in 1839 it would show they wore not quite so far off from such a state of things themselves, and it was only by adopting the unusual course of applying for foreign credit—a course not very honourable to the character of the country—that they were able to avert those evils which took place in America. This was owing to the unlimited circulation of paper ; and it was worthy of remark that, previous to this time, the circulation was greater than at any former period. Ile did not mean to deny that the circulation of paper was a great benefit, but, in order to render it safe, proper securities should be taken. Those precautions were such as would give paper as much as possible the value of gold, by subjecting it to the same regulations. There should be as much paper as was just necessary, and no more, and previous deposits of bullion equal to the amount of paper required should be made. This would ensure convertibility ; but something more than convertibility was required. That would provide means of circulation, but it was inadequate to check paper be ing put into circulation. There were other checks, no doubt, such as the fear of consequences ; but there were not the same checks as existed in a metallic circu lation, for bullion had to be taken to the Mint, and if' they applied the same chock to paper, they took all the security that could be required. The most proper course they could adopt was, in his opinion, to require deposits of bullion previous to the increase of the paper circulation, ITp to 1833, all that the Bank of England required was to have good commercial securities ; but, in 1833, a new rule was adopted, which was a nearer approach to sound principle, and it was, in point of fact, that which the Right Hon. Baronet adopted. Beginning from the year 1832, during the eight years in which that rule was in operation, the difference between the highest and lowest amount of security was 10,804,0001., and that between the highest and lowest amount of bullion was 8,178,0001., and the difference between the highest and lowest amount of circulation was 3,334,0001. That which ought to vary, varied to the amount of three millions ; and that which ought not to vary, varied to the amount of 10,800,000/. The rule, which was suited to ordinary circumstances, was found to be broken through when a pressure came. He was convinced of the in justice of the attacks which had been made against the Bank directors. Whatever they did, it was from a con viction that it was the best for the public, uninfluenced by any consideration of private interest. Still less did he blame the issuers of country banks. They acted upon no rule. They did not profess to regulate their issue by any particular rule. Mr. Hobhouse, in his evidence, stated of the country bankers that they never pretended to exercise any power over the circulation. The consequence was, that while the aggregate circulation increased largely only from March, 1838, to September in the same year, the country issues increased largely from the former period up to June 1839. They were at a minimum when bullion was at a maximum, and they were at a maximum when bullion decreased six per cent. He believed that the principles laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman were sound as far they went, and the questien really was by what means they could introduce principles still sounder. He believed that the power of the public over a paper circulation would be just what it was over a metallic circulation. But he was bound to say the Right Hon. Gentleman was entitled to the credit of having brought forward an eminently practical plan. There were other considerations connected with the matter, but taking the plan as far as it went, he was bound to say it was eminently p rac tical.—(hear •) was impossible that a drain should happen w hen t bullion was so low, although the knowledge that it w so might tend to increase the drain. On the svhol a e s taking all the circumstances of the case into considera tion; he felt bound to say that although eattalfilrsptrehpeafreeld It felt some doubts upon the subject , he was n to quarrel with the amount of security. was exceed ingly desirable that persons should be aware what was the first apparent drain in the returns of the circulation, least any alarm should be excited in the public mind. Ile believed there were about twenty-one millions of notes in circulation—he believed rather more indeed. The first returns for the issuing department would show an apparent increase of bank notes to the amount of nine millions. That amount would rather startle the public unless they were apprised that the increase would be more in appearance than in reality. What each depart ment did with these notes would, of course, appear in the returns ; he was only anxious that the public should be apprised that there would be an increase of nine, millions in the Bank circulation.—(llear.) He now came to the exceptional power of increasing the issue upon depositing security, and he was willing that this should take place in the cases stated by the Right lion. Gentleman. The House was willing that, so long as the Right. lion. Gentleman Was Prime Minister uf this country. This power should remain with him —(lleer, hear)—but before he had got out of doors, after listening to the Right Hen. Gentleman's proposal, he was told that this was considered in the Bank parloar an exceedingly convenient mode of increasing the issue whenever the Bank might desire. lie thought that was a most serious objection to the proposal, and the objec tion was stronger when the power was in the hands of the Government than when it was in the hands of the Bank. Let them only imagine a weak Government pro ceeding to exercise the power, and he felt sure they would conclude that must be most dangerous ; in fact, it might take away the very essence of the present plan, he which was itself a check to issue. llo‘i:ever,__ thought the alteration proposed by the . Right on. II Gentleman tended materially to r emove an arrangement.. he It did w. lle confessedasngotnitseeeelethare that necessitys n i this np for g as substi tution objection.dsuch was made out of the res erve the nl ' the whole profit of the transaction , but l i 3 l a iti4 w 'a o s u obl f t ra e l d a whole profit would o to t t t h o e g obtain notes by_depositing a lar ti g:r G am ov o e u r n n t m o e f n s t ecu T i h ty e Bank had ad th n a o t poindeecremsaenitentgo as c they ome had in their ownto the Government to obtain hands a sufficient supply of notes to enable them to make the substitution. He quite agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the propriety of the Government in not communicating with those parties whose own interests were more immediately concerned, and he thought it highly creditable to the Right Hon. Gentleman and his colleagues that they had shown every disposition to amend the law as far as amendment was required. He thought it was exceedingly desirous that banks should know what was the amount of the notes in reserve it the Bank of England. There was an immense money power in the Bank at that moment, if it had in reserve nine millions of money in notes, There might be immense bunsis of money which it bad ci I I II ,