The Sun. — London, England, 1839-04-16 00:00:00

EVENENG EDITION PE RIAL PARLIAMENT. E OF LORDS, ArzuL 15. \CLLLOR took his seat on the Wool- 1E RE FORD presented a petition from orno!.6tion of Hereford in favour of Mr. plan of postage. The Duke of CLEVELAND presented petitions to the same effect from Stoekton.on•Tees, and Worthington, in Cga younty of Durham. the Earl of RODEN presented several petitions, pray tog that the soldiers in India might be relieved from at terldanee on idolatrous worship, and against the present system of education in Ireland. Earl DE GREY presented a petition from Bedford, aga'nst the appointment of Catholic and other chaplains in gaols. Lord PRUDHOE presented thirteen petitions against any alteration in the Corn-laws. The Earl of ABERDEEN presented a number of pe titions from places in Scotland against any system of na tional education not founded upon the principles of the Established Church. Lord PORTNLA,N presented a petition from Paisley, praying for a reduction in the duty on insurances from fire. Eirl RODEN moved that the Earl of Glengall be added to the Committee on Irish Outrages, in the place of the +I-irquis of Londonderry, who could not attend. I;ishop of LONDON gave notice that on Thurs e would move certain amendments upon the amend of the Commons to the Ecclesiastical Appointments' n Bail Susper ..uop of CANTERBURY presented several ~gain.q any system of education not fuunded upon ~.11ntioles of the Established Church. The Bishop of CHESTER presented petitions from Merioneth, and other places, against the Beer Bill : and also for protection to the Church in Canada. The Bishop of [UPON presented petitions, also pray ing, for protection to the Church in Canada. The Mutiny Bill, and the Marine Mutiny Bill were sever ally read a second tame. Lord DUNCANNON presented a Report from the Eoclesiestical Commission for Ireland, being a continuation of theit proceedings up to August last.—Adjourned. T'oc Arc b ' petitio the I HOUSE OF COMMONS, AritiL 15. The lobbies and other avenues leading to the House en Conamons were crowded with persons, anxious to obtain admission to the d. bete upon Lord John Russell's motion, which had been fixed for this evening; and the crowd be entne so great at a few minute: before four o'clock that the I Membcre, and others having business in the House, could with dpi lenity obtain access. The strangers' gallery and seats b&tied the Sergeant's chair having been completely filed at half-past three o'clock, the messengers and door keepers were obliged to remove the remainder of tae crowd, amounting to upwards of two hundred ewes, from the lobbies and passages, and close .uter iron gates. The street on either side of the ' entrance was also lined with persons anxious to obtain a peep at the leaders of either party on their way to the House. Mr. O'Connell, Lord John Russell, and - * - veral others, on being recognized were loudly cheered. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. On the motion of Mr. PEASE, the Bishop Auckland and Weardale Railway Bill was read a second time. Sir E. WILNI OT presented a petition from the agent of the Manchester, London, and Birmingham Railway Company, complaining of allegations made relative to the detention of the mails on these railways in a petition pre sented from the Earl of Litchfield and others. The lion. Member moved that the petition be pr:nted, and intimated that he would bring the subject before the House on a f4ture occasion. On the motion of Mr. BROTH E RTON Reuss' Natu ralization Bill was read a second time. On the motion of Mr. BANNERMAN the Aberdeen Harbour Bill was read a second time. Mr. B. D'ISRA ELI presented a petition against the South Eastern Railway Bill. • Sir R. DONKIN presented a petition from Kent to the same effect. De. Is USHINGTON presented a petition from the Tower Hamlets against certain parts of the North Eastern Reilway Bill. Oa the motion of Mr. CHALMERS the Aberbroth wi,k Barbour Bill was read a third time, and passed. M:. SOMERS presented several petitions from different parishes in Sligo, in favour of the policy adopted by Minis. tors in the Government of Ireland. Colonel VERNER presented a petition from Ar magh, complaining - of the mode in which Ireland had been governed within the last few years, and praying the House not to adopt any resolution that would have the effect of seventieg inquiry into that subject. .sir. G. E V ANS presented petitions from Dublin, Coleraine, end Queen's County, praying the House to support Miristers in the line of policy adopted by them in governing Ireland. Mr. ELLIOTT presented a petition from Roxburgh, praying the House to adopt Mr. Rowland Hill's plan for a penny post. Mr. DUNBAR presented a petition from Belfast, praying the House not to adopt the resolution intended to he proposed that night by the Secretary of State for the !Lime Department. Sr ROBERT B ATESON presented a petition from the Proteitants of Dublin, praying the House to address her Majesty to change her present Government.—( Hear, hear.) In the prayer of the petition he most heartily t concurred—(Hear, hear)—as he considered the conduct of i the present Gc.sernment with regard to Ireland the greatest curse that had been inflicted on lreland.—( Hear.) The iI'EAKER said the lion. Member should state the prayer of the petition. lie apprehended that that expression was not ecntsined in the pAition.—( Hear. ) ,:sir R. BATESON—The petitioners said that, consi dering the distm bed state of England—the lawless state of frelat4d—the rebellion in Canada—and the excited state of ,the two Indies—(Laughter)—they prayed the Hcuse to adklee . s4 her Mejesv, beseeching her to dismiss from her service men who had proved themselves incapable of go t erniag this great country, either with honour to themselves or profit to the country. Petitions, praying for a continuance of the present sys tem of governing Iceland were presented by Mr. Bodkin; from nine parishes in Galway, by Mr. M. J. O'Connell ; from ten punishes in Kerry, by Mr. Curry; from Armagh and three other places, by Mr. Archbold ; from Kildare, by Mr. Jeplison • and by Sir Charles Styles, from Donegal. Mr. CiiII:DERS presented a petition from Maldon, in favour of M:. Rowland Hill's plan of postage ; and by Mr. A. CHAPMAN, from Whitley, to the same effect. Sir W. SO ME RV ILL E presented petitions from the county of Meath, expressive of confidence in her Majesty's lemberi - Ministers. Mr. PEASE presented petitions from Stockton-on- Tees, and other place 3 in Durham, and from the West Itidinn of Yorkshire., in favour of a uniform rate of postage. Sir ROBERT INGLIS presented a petition from the Minister, Churchwardens, and other inhabitants of Ta fttock, praying for the protection of the Church in the colonies. Mr. D. BROWNE presented several petitions from the county of Mayo, signed by upwards of 20,000 persons, ap provinm of the Administration of Lord Normanby. VIGORS presented petitions to the same effect, from several parishes in the county of Catlow. Mr. A SIITON YATES presented petitions from pa rishes in Carlow in favour of the manner in which the Go of Ireland has been conducted for the last four ye/ imien years. Mr. LYTTON presented a petition from Dublin, s:gned by 5,293 persons, praj ing the House to present a spe ct ful address to her Majesty for the dismissal of her M ',lesty's Ministers, who, since their appointment, have proved themselves utterly incapable of conducting the Go vernmeet of this great empire.—( Laughter and cheers.) Mr. O'Connell here entered the House with a large box in one hand, and a bag in the other, completely filled with petitions. amidst loud hnghtcr. Mr. BLACKBURN presented a petition from War nngton, praying the House not to come to any resolution on Irish affairs until the result of the inquiry befure the Lords should be known. Mr. 13E LL ENV presented petitions from the county of Devnn in favour of her Nla,esty's Government. Ale. BAINES: presented a petition from Mirfield in favour of a penny postage. Air, GIL LON presented a petition from Lanark in fa vour cf the Scotch Prisons Bill, and a petition from a con gregation in Perth, againit any additional endowments to thr. Church of Sco:land. The lion. Member presented several other petitions, the nature of which we could not hoar, in consequence of the confusion which prevailed, notwithstanding the repeated calls to order made by the Spe iker. Mr. H. GRATTAN presented s':veral petitions from parishes situated in the counties o! Down. Monaghan, Fermanagh, Armagh ; also, from the town of Dundalk, and ' other places in Ireland, in support of the policy pursued by 1 her Majesty's Ministers. !. Major AI ACN AMA R A presented petitions from various parishes, in the county of Clare. praying the House to sup. pert ber M.ljosty's Ministers, and defend Ireland against the sanguinary Orange faction.—( Laughter from the Op. position beitclicg, answesed by cheers from the Ministerial.) Mr. POWER presented several petitions from different places in Ireland in favour of her Majesty's Ministers. Mr. BARRY presented several petitions from places in ' the ccanry of Cork and othert parts of Ireland, to the same efFeq. Mr. CHA LNIE RS presented petitions against any ad ditional grants to the Church of Scotland. Mr. REDDINGTON presented petitions from various places in Deland, in support of her Majesty's Ministers. i Mr. WALKER presented petitions from various places ' in the county of Wexford to the same effect. Mr. FITZSIMON presented several petitions from parishes in the King's County in support of her Ma -1 jesty's Ministers. Sir GEORGE CLERK brought up the Report of i the Select Committee appointed to search the Lord's ' Journals for the proceedings of their Lordships rela -1 titie to the Committee appointed upon the state of Crime ) and Outrage in Ireland—Laid on the table. The SPEAKER having called upon Lord John I Russell, ' Mr. O'CONNELL rose, and stated that several Mem bers had petitions to present upon the subject of the pre , sent night's debate, and he wished to know whether they I were to have the liberty of presenting them before the ' Noble Lord brought on his motion. The SPEAKER said that it was the duty of Hon. Members who had such petitions to present to have been there at an earlier period of the evening. BREACIJ OF PRIVILEGE. l‘lr. CRAWFORD w i s h e d to ma ke a few observa tions relative to the question of privilege. fie would not, at the pr esent moment, delay theproceeding on the important i questio n th at was about to be brought before the house; but he begged toegze should that, on the first opportunityoccurred,, that occurred, he I ask the House to take into its consideration the circumstances u !tan ? es un d er w hi c h th r ee Mem bers of that House had ra Ai •144111011VAtcns, been by e d ~' ,' . "ion on Friday personal mandate of the to leave - the House just Pr e . , ' - - last. thought that the Hon. Member for the ~ s 4 . q %, -_ taz t a much, ought to have .' • ik . .-. , . litths t frib9r - .- , -' • "._ , •-•— .., I P 1 THE SUN, LONDON', TUF,SnAY, APRIL 16. JPPG which, during your Majesty's reign, they are confident will al ways be exerted for the good of your people." Presently afterwards, there was the resolution of the [louse of Lords, reflecting greatly on one of the Secreta ries of State—Lord Nottingham, and the [louse of Corn. moos immediately came to a resolution in favour of Lord Nottingham. which they carried to the foot of the throne. It was as follows : " Not contented with preferring their own examination to yours—not contented with excluding your Majesty and the Commons, to whom Parliamentary inquiries most properly be long—appropriate to their House only, even in their application to their Sovereign, the name of Parliament." It so happened that several years afterwards Lord Nottingham moved in the House of Lords a resolution as to the conduct of the war, praying that no peace might be made while Spain and the Indies remained in the hands of the House of Bourbon. This was immediately resented by the Government, who took their own means to support their measures in the House of Lords. I Sir R. PE E L—By a creation of Peers. [Lord J. RUSS E L L—Yes, as the R;ght Hon. Baronet says, by a creation of Peers ; for it had so happened at that time that the prerogative bad been exerted with so much sobriety, that the creation of 12 Peers was sufficient to give the Ministry a majority.—( Ministerial cheers.) That certainly has not been the sobriety of later times. — (Ministerial cheers, re-echoed by cheers from the Opposi tion.) Sir, I have no objection, if it were proper at this time, to enter into that question ; but, certainly, I think that one of the greatest evils of the Ministry which came into power in 1784 was, that it altogether altered the cha racter of the House of Peers--( Ministerial cheers.) I stated this opinion so long ago as 1822, on bringing forward the question of Parliamentary Reform, and I have not seen any reason to change it. Sir, I was proceeding to state that for a considerable time, owing, a; I think, to a defect in the representative system, the House of Lords and the House of Commons were without any great differ ,!nce. When Lord Grey, however, was entrusted by his late Majesty with the direction of affairs, we soon found out a difference of opinion between the two Houses as to the Executive ; and on the policy of the Govern ment regarding Portugal, the House of Herds sent an ad dress to th.T. Throne, disapproving of the conduct of ,he Government. What was the result? An HAL and Gallant Friend of mine, immediately put the questio to this House whether they would agree with the House of Lords upon the question, or whether they would support the policy of the Government. That must, Sir, be the case.—( Hear, hear.) If the Houses of Par iiament differ as to the policy of the Executive— the opinion of the House of Commons ought to be expressed upon it ; and I say that, according to the Constitution of the country, according to the power vested in the House of Commons, the opinion of the House of Commons on that subject ought to prevail.— ( Loud Ministerial cheers.) Sir, I have hitherto stated the reasons why I think the House of Commons ought to express an opinion upon this subject. I have not stated anything inconsistent with their entertaining an opinion ilar to that which has been entertained by the Honse of Lords. I have not stated any thing inconsistent with them, either, if they should think fit, executing the inquiry themselves, or passing a more direct vote, censuring the conduct of the administration in Ireland. All that I have argued, and which I think I am entitled to ask, is that this House should pronounce an opinion one way or the other.--( Cheers.) Let them pronounce an opinion either way, I think they will maintain the character and dig. nity of the House of Commons. But I must say, that if they were to pass the resolution of the Right Hon. Baronet—if they were to say that they would wait till the end of this year or perhaps to the end of next year, till the House of Lords have examined into the exercise of the prerogative of mercy—Meer, hear:—till the House of Lords have gone through the case of every criminal tried at Kilkenny or Armagh, if this House should wait thus silently and pas sively, allowing the Government to be carried on crippled and enfeebled by the vote of the House of Lords, without oronouncino any opinion, I say that the degradation of the House of Commons is marked from that day.__( Loud cheers from the Ministerialists.) Now, Sir, I come to that which, no doubt, is a most important question for this House to decide upon—upon which I fear that I must trouble them at considerable length ; but which I am resolved to bring before them, in order that this House may know at least what has been our view with respect to the state of Ireland—that they may not be led astray by partial statements with re spect to the outrages which have taken place in Ireland=and that they may not conclude, from the words of this resolution of the House of Lords, that outrage and crime have solely prevailed in Ireland because the administration of the Government has been in the hands of men of liberal inclinations and politics—(hear, hear) — but that they may see to what it is owing that crime and outrage have existed in Ireland, and that such crimes and outrages have not been repressed—that they may see, that these are evils the seeds of which were sown long ago, and which it will require not four years, but forty years of good Administration, luny to eradicate.—( Loud cheers.) Sir, so far back as the commencement of the reign of George I I 1., we fine that persons in Ireland went about armed, com pelling others to give up their arms, going disguised at night, witnesses being threatened, and combined force being used to carry into effect certain objects which conspirators had in view. Sir, in this state of things, lawless and lament able as it is, there is nothing which very much differs from the state in which other counties had been; there is nothing that much differs from the state of things in which this country is represented to have been, during the early part of the reign of Elizabeth, or the state of things in which Scotland is described to have been at the revolution in 1688 ; there is nothing in it to which the wisdom of the Ministers of Elizabeth, or the policy of William of Orange, were not capable of applying a remedy. Is there anything in the nature of the Irish people, which forbids such outrages being successfully remedied ? think no man will deny that in the upper classes no men have shown greater talent, greater aptitude in the arts, and arms, than the natives of Ireland—( Cheers)—and I think, with respect to the lower classes, there arc no men who, as soldiers, as subjects, as workmen, have shown more valour, more industry, more of the qualities by which a country was generally raised to eminence.—( Loud cheers.) It is not, therefore, that there is anything in the state of Ireland, or in the nature of the people themselves, which forbid such evils being met and remedied. Sir, it is worth the attention of the House, that Lord Normanby's Under Secretary has been much condemned, for writing in simple terms of property having duties as well as tights, and of the neglect of those duties in past times having led to much of the misery of the present. And I will read what was said by Mr. Fitzgibbon, in 1787, afterwards Lord Clare, a person certainly not of very popular principles.— " At last they proceeded to "regulate the price of land, to raise the price of labour, and to oppose the collection of the hearth-money and other taxes." " 1 am very well acquainted with the province of Munster, and I know that it is impossible for human wret Redness to exceed that of the miserable peasantry of that province. I know that the unhappy tenantry are ground to powder by relentless landlords. I know that far from being able to give the clergy their just dues , they have not food' and rai ment for themselves ; the landlord grasps the whole, and sorry am Ito add, that not satisfied with the present extor tion, some landlords have been so base as to instigate the in surgents to rob the clergy of their tithes, not in order to alle viate the distresses if the tenantry, but that they might add the clergy's share to the cruel rack-rent already paid." —That was the character given of the Irish landlords by Mr. Fitzgibbon, the Attorney-General, and I should like to know what he would have said if he had been told it was not competent for him to express the opinion that property had its duties as well as its rights.—( Cheers.) The Duke of Wellington also said, in 1829-.. " The whole affair was managed, and the money paid by the landlord, or the c an did a t e , or was i n some other wayhiade the object of a job f or p romo ti ng th e political influence took the trouble of manag i ng it . I t also ea dfrom the authority t h se o who te authority he hail before quoted, that the people were driven to the hustings in large numb ers ; th a t they were looked upon as part of the live stock of the estate ; an d that they t scarcely s treated like human beings. Property h as it its rights ; and that it is to the neglect of these valueese that many and most of the present miseries are to be attributed." esa _That was in past times, and would to God that Mr. Drum. mond's statement was true, that it was confined to past times. —( Hear.) I have spoken now of the state ofthe coun try, and the causes why I think the evil was not remedied in those days. Arthur Young, in his works in 1772 said— " The age has improved so much in humanity that even the poor Irish have experienced its influence, and are every day reated better and better; but still the remnant of the old man ners, the abominable distinction of religion, united with the oppressive conduct of the little country gentlemen, or rather vermin of the kingdom, who never were out of it, altogether still bear very hard on the poor people, and subject them to situations more mortifying than we ever behold in England. The landlord of an Irish estate inhabited 4 - Roman Catholics is a sort of despot, who yields obedience, in whatever concerns the poor, to no law but that of his will. To discover what the liberty of a people is we must live among them, and not look for it in the statutes of the realm : the language of the written law may be that of liberty, but the situation of the poor may speak no lan guage but that of slavery. There is too much of this contra diction in Ireland ; along series of oppressions, aided by many very ill-judged laws, have brought landlords into a habit of exerting a very lofty superiority,', and their vassals into that of an almost unlimited submiss ion. " A landlord in Ireland can scarcely invent an order which a servant, labourer, or cotter, dares to refuse to execute. Nothing satisfies him but unlimited submission. Disrespect or an ythi n g tending towards sauciness he may punish with his cane or his horsewhip with the most perfect security. A poor man would have his bones broken if he offered to lift his hand in his own defence." —That was the description in plain and cogent terms of the condition of the Irish landlord and the Irish peasantry. I will take another description, written with more philosophy and with more eloquence. It is an extract from Mr. Burke. The Noble Lord read as follows from the Letter to Sir Hercules Langrishe. " You who have looked deeply into the spirit of the Popery laws, must be perfectly sensible that a great part of the present mischief, which we abhor in common (if it at all exists), has arisen from them. " Their declared object w i as to reduce the Catholics of Ire land to a miserable populace, without property, without estima tion, without education. The professed object might was toe or obtaintodeprive the few men who, in spite of tho se laws, any property amongst them, of all sorts of influence or authority over the rest. They divided the nation into two distinct bo dies, without common interest, sympathy, or connection. One of these bodies was to possess all the franchises, all the property, all the education. The other was to be composed of drawers of water, and cutters of turf for them. " Arc we to be astonished, when by the effort of so much violence in conquest, and so much policy in regulation, con tinued without interruption for near a hundred years, we had reduced them to a mob ; that whenever they came to act at all, many of them would not exactly like a mob without a temper, measure, or foresight." —The Noble Lord also quoted the following from L or d Charlemont ; " Exorbitant rents, low wages, want of employment , in a Country destitute of manufactures, where desolation and fa mine were the effects of fertility—where the rich gifts of a bountif u l soil were destructive to her children, and served only to tantalize them ; where oxen supplied the place of men, and by leaving little room for cultivation, while they enriched their pampered owners, starved the miserable remnant of thinly scattered inhabitants ; farms of enormous extent, let by their rapacious and indolent proprietors to monopolizing landjobbers, by whom small portions of them were again let and relet to intermediate oppressors, and by them subdivided for five times their value, among the wretched starvers upon potatoes and water; taxes yearly increasing, and tithes the Catholic., without ary possible benefit, unwillingly pays in addition to his priest-money, misery, oppression, and famine ! These were undoubtedly the first and original causes, obvious to the slightest inspection, though resolutely denied, and every public investigation i,lto them impudently frustrated by those whose sordid interest opposed their removal."— Hardy's Life of Charlemont. Those extracts show, I think, and most truly, the condit'on of Ireland at that time, and if I am at all right in my belief—if at that time measures had been passed putting the Roman Catholics upon an equality with the Protestants, making the laws of the realm convey the spirit of justice, and at the same time providing as we have endeavoured to provide in the spirit of the laws of Elizabeth, for the sustenance of the poor, in my opinion, we should not now have had to regret the state of Ireland. --(Cheers.) That was the time, in my opinion, when great influences might have been exerted, and when fu ture evils might have been prevented. —( Hear.) What was done ?—the first law which was passed, was with respect to Whiteboys in 1775, when the law of punish. ments and penalties were imposed. The preamble recites— " It has frequently happened of late years, in different parts of this kingdom, that several persons calling themselves White boys, and others, as well by night as in the day time, have in a riotous, tumultuous, and disorderly manner assembled together, and have abused and injured the persons, habitations, and pro perties of many of his Majesty's loyal and faithful subjects, and have taken away and carried away their horses and arms, and have compelled them to surrender up, quit, and leave their habitations, farms, and places of abode ; and have with threats and violence imposed sundry oaths and solemn deelarations con trary to law, and solicited several of his Majesty's subjects, by threats and premises, to join them in such their mischievous and iniquitous proceedings ; and have also sent threatening and in cendiary letters to several persons, to the great terror of his Majesty's peaceable subjects. In the same year another law was passed, and after re counting the disorders that prevailed, it proceeded to enact the most severe penalties. There are many clauses in that Act inflicting the penalties of death ; but even when the clauses do not go so far as to enforce capital punishment, what is the spirit of that law? If any person is found out of his doors in a garb that is not his usual garb, or a dress that it is not usual for him to wear, he is taken into custody and imprisoned. Such was the spirit of that law ; such was the spirit of the Insurrection Act ; such was the spirit of the Habeas Corpus Act—all tend ing to punishment, all using severity against the people—all taking care, and very properly taking care, to pursue crime with the utmost penalties,' but none of them providing for the permanent welfare of the people—none of them ad , mitting the Roman Catholics to be treated as the free sub- jects of a free country.—(Much cheering.) I will show yo❑ the consequences of those proceedings. I will not go through the catalogue of the dreadful offences of crime, of murder, and of insurrection that prevailed in 1788. 1798, 1806, and at various times, nor will I go through the catalo4ne of the penalties of the laws of those times, but I wish you to come to consider the period of 1824 and 1825. Those intermediate fifty years are, perhaps, the most remarkable fifty years in the history of the country. In France there was a monarchy overthrown and a military despotism created. During that period almost every country in Europe saw its thrones abandoned or their possessors dead—its institutions altered, and symp toms of the most violent rev&utions. The persons living in those times were almost like the Pilgrim in the ruin of Rome— " Oft arose the voice Of time, 'mid,t parting towers Tumbling precipitately, Down the abyss." In our own country we had great changes and suspensions of the Constitution—a foreign war—an immense national debt—prodigious victories in arms—and very great and al• most miraculous prosperity. Such were the changes which during fifty years took place on the Continent of Europe, and in this country ; and now I will show you what was the account given at the end of the fifty years by a person well competent to speak to facts with respect to the state of Ireland. You had not then changed your laws— you had not then admitted the Roman Catholics to a free participation with the Protestants; and the party to whom I allude describes the country as he found it, and after the time of the passing of the White Boy Act, Mr. Barrington said— " I find the Whiteboy-system has for the last sixty years continual under different names : as Peep-o'-day Boys, Thrashers, Whiteboys, lighters, Carders, Shanavats, Cara- Rockites, Black-hens, Riskavahas, Ribbon-men, the Lady Cleres, the Terry Alts ; these latter were the names they assumed last year in Clare. Now we have Whitefeet and Blackfeet.. The outrages have been the same for the last sixty years." They (the illegal associations) have always had objects connected more or less with land. The preamble of the Irish Act of 15 and 16 George 111., almost describes the present state of the country. Associations have been formed for regulating the prices of land, attacking houses, administering oaths, delivering threatening notices, taking arms, taking horses at night and returning them again in the morning, taking away girls, murders of proctors and gaugers, prevei.ting ex• portation of provisions, digging up land, destroying fences, houghing cattle, resisting the payment of tithes, and other outrages similar to those which have occurred in Clare last year, and which are now the subject of investigation in the Queen's County." Thus, Sir, it appears that those fifty years—that that half century—which effected such great changes, and exhibited such an extensive revolution in almost every country of Europe, had left Ireland, according to Mr. Barrington, in the same state that was almost literally describel by the \Vhiteboy Act in 1775. —( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord also read the following extracts in confirmation of his statement;— Lords' Comrnitt^e, 1824—i Ir. Francis Blackburne. ‘' My opinion was and is, that in Limerick, and the adjacent parts of the counties of Cork and Kerry, the spirit of insurrec tion which has broken out proceeded from local causes, and the condition of the lower orders of the people. The population of the parts of the country where insurreetions are most preva lent is extremely dens - % The property is greatly subdivided, and the condition of the lower orders of the people is more mi serable than I can describe it. The great increase of people, with other causes which I shall advert to more particularly, had raised the rents of lands in that part to a degree that was per. fectly exorbitant. Land in that country, which is totally desti tute of manufactures, appears to me to have become (if I may use the expression) a necessary of life." Lords' Committee, 1824—Mr. Maxwell Blacker. " The great tendency to increase of population, arising mainly from the high prices during the war, which changed Ireland from a pasture country very much into an agricultural coui.try; and from the relaxation of the Penal Code in that particular, :Is to establishing 40s. freeholders among Catho lics, which has led excessively to population—and also from the interest of the Priests to increase population, whose greatest income is derived from the fees upon marriages, were the causes of the distress." Mr. Matthew Barrington, Crown Solicitor, Munster.—Eri dence, Howe of Commons, 1832. " Do you attribute the inflammable state of the population to the state of misery in which they are ?—I do to a great extent. I seldom knew an instance where there was suffi cient employment for the people that they were i nclined to be disturbed; if they have plenty of work and employment they are generally peaceable." Major Richard Wilcocks, Inspector of Police.—Evidence, The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Member for the conduct of the Executive Government to. take other University of Oxford, in having made the statement he ground, and I submit, in the first place, that this had just done, had relieved him from the difficulty in which resolution of the House of Lords is such a one, that it is he was placed. He was quite ready to affirm, and take incumbent upon this House to express an opinion upon the upon himself, the entire responsibility of having ordered question one way or other.—( Loud cheers.) Sir, lam those Members to withdraw.—( Hear, hear.) not saying that it may not have been perfectly right in the Mr. CR A W FORD said that ho was not at all aware House of Lords to appoint such a Committee—if they con that any reference had been made to the Speaker, but such sidered that Ireland was in such a state of danger that the being the case—having the greatest respect fur the decision insecurity of property was such as was represented by some of the Chair, he should bow to it without another word, parties—if such was their opinion, it was necessary that The SPEAKER said that perhaps it would be right they should appoint such a Committee,. but this I will say, that he should state to the House the circumstances that that it is impossible for any one to say that that vote was any had taken place.—( Hear, hear.) As he had stated be- other than n vote of censure upon the Government. fore, the whole matter rested entirely with himself. When Why, Sir, no man I think can read even the terms of the there was a large House, it was almost impossible for him resolution, pointing out the particular date at which it to know whether the door was shut or not ; but last Fri- commences, and ending with the words that it " had ren day, there being only a few Members in the House, he dered life and property insecure in that part of could distinctly see that the door was closed. Immediately the empire," without seeing that the plain conclusion upon doing which he began to put the question.-- was intended to be drawn, that it has been the con ( Hear, hear, hear.) When he was in the course of duct of the Administration which has thus exposed life doing so ho saw the door forced open, and three and property to peril in Ireland. But if we were in any Members enter the House. He immediately requested doubt about that, it is to be recollected the House of Lords, that they should withdraw, and sent for the Sergeant to who, by the way, seem particularly favourable to breach know under what circumstances those Members had ob- of privileges of this kind have allowed by the usual breach tained admission. His statement was that he had closed of privilege the debate upon the subject of this the door, and was keeping it shut with the assistance of a motion, to circulate throughout the country. Why, that messenger, when it was forced open. Hon. Members debate so circulated through the country, contains nothing might, probably, be aware that the Sergeant had met but accusations. Nearly the whole of it is a repetition of with an accident which prevented him from shutting the accusation after accusation—of charges of an improper ex door so quickly as other persons might be enabled to do. cise of the prerogative of mercy—of charges of a want of Mr. CRA W FORD could state upon his honour that vigor in the administration of the law—of charges of almost the door is as partially open when he first approached. every species of negligence, even of criminality, which the Mr. Alderman li UNI PH E Rl' said the door was half Lord Lieutenant can be guilty of. And, Sir, let it be re open when he came in.—( Laughter.) He could assure collected the very name of the mover is calculated to excite a the Speaker that when be was at the door the Sergeant suspicion of the character of the motion.—( Cheers.) had not got there, and three or four other gentlemen besides When we see the name of the person by whom the assault himself would have got in, providing the door had not been is made, we can have no doubt of the colour of the closed. —( Great laughter.) flag he bears.--( Hear, hear.) Let it be remembered, Mr. R. STE UA RT felt bound to state that the door likewise, that as soon as the account of this vote came to was closed, and that the question was half put when to Ireland, it was spread everywhere, through the most the Honourable Member made his appearance. usual organs of those who entertain the views of that Mr. GODSON was one of those Members to whom Noble Lord, that the House of Lords had passed a vote of allusion had been made. He was behind the Hon. Mem- censure on hi r Majesty's Government.—( Hear, hear.) ber for Southwark, and was not aware that the Speaker's Why, I say, with respect to subjects upon which a people order extended further than that the lion. Member oppo- unnaturally sensitive and alive with respect to subjects site (Mr. Alderman Humphery) should be put out.— upon which great anxiety is equally felt, would it be pus ( Laughter.) He felt very indignant at the time, not sible for us to allow that impression to go forth, that such a knowing that any order had been given that personal vio. vote of censure had been agreed to, and not endeavour, by lence should be used to any Member, the door being open, the means of submitting a motion to this House, to learn, and he was relieved to find Mr. Speaker bad given orders whether or no the two Houses of Parliament were agreed that three Members should not vote on the question. on that subject.—( Cheers.) Sir, one Noble and Learned of course be bowed to that, but he felt it was a question Friend of mite is re-ported to have said it was a that ough• to be brought before the House. prima fucie vote of censure. I entirely concur in that POLICY OF MINISTERS—IRELAND. description of it. No doubt, upon investigation, the Mr. SMITH O'B R lEN presented petitions from accusation might be disproved; but it is not pos seventeen parishes in Limerick, deprecating any change in sible for the Government to abstain from taking the policy of Government towards Ireland. notice of a prima facie vote of censure any more than it Mr. O'CONNELL—I mean to bring them up by dozens is possible for them to submit to a motion for a The first petition I have is from the county of Monaghan, Committee of the whole House to inquire into the praying the House to approve of the policy of Minsters in state of the nation, the character of which motion regard to Ireland, and not to restore the domination of is universally appreciated by the House and the Orange injustice in Ireland.—(Laughter on the Opposi. country at large to be a vote of censure.—( Hear, hear.) tion Benches.) Those who would be the first to slaughter Sir, lam aware that the words e f the motion are framed would be the first to laugh at it.—( Cries of " Order, with such art, that it certainly was possible for some per order.") Are you so dominant already that I cannot speak sons who had inclined to vote for it to think that it did not but you must laugh ? convey censure—that it was only an inquiry into crimes. Mr. LUCA s.—Sir, I rise to order.—( Hear.) But while it only takes from the candour of the proceed- The SPEAKER.—The rule is, that an Hon. Member, ing, it takes off nothing from the list of accusations. — in presenting a petition, should confine himself to the sub- ( Cheers.) I say, S'r, if that be the case, that it is not suf ject of it.--( liar.) ficient for the House to adopt a long and elaborate pre- Mr. O'CONN E LL—I was doing so, Sir, and I was vious q uestion, in the form in which the Right met by a laugh.—( Hear, hear. ) I have a right to remark Hon. Gentleman proposes it, that previous questionibeing on its brutalitv.—(Cheers from the Irish Members, and rather weakened than strengthened ,by the arguments in loud cries of " Order, order," from the Opposition benches ) troduced in the preamble by way of supporting it. A re- Mr. LUCAS-1 submit the lion. and Learned Mem- ference is made to the returns ordered by this House. her has no right to interpose his own sentiments when pre. Those returns were moved for, and my Noble Pr:end near setiting petitions. Other Members do not, and I know of inc said lie thought them not unusual in their character, no immunity he has that can justify him in doing so.— but he thought that other years should enter into the ( Hear, hear.) While I have the honour of a seat in return , so th at there would be nothing invidious; this House, I will never consent, nor silently sit still and my Noble Friend moved likewise that while the Honourable Member does claim such im- the memorials should be given, provided it was munities. I know of no laugh that proceeded from consistent with the public service and the due administra this side of the House.—( Loud cries of " Oh, oh 1") tion of justice ; there were words of modification introduced The county from which the Hon. Member* presents the as to Ribbonism. Now these returns might be made with petition, is the county which I represent, and I th e refore the consent of the Government without implying in a n y feel interested in the matter. I say that I know of no manner (and that was the view which my Noble Friend laugh—(Oh.) There might have been.—( Oh.) Certai n ly arid 1 took of it) a censure upon the Government. B u t, near me there was no intention to interrupt the presents- Sir, when a Committee is named, you have not th a t tion of petitions ; but I call on you , Sir—( Loud cries of restraint with respect to the questions to be asked, but there o Order.) I bow to your decision, Sir, but Ido not, and is this further question—if it be right, if it be proper will not bow to the decision of the Hon. Gentleman — to have an inquiry into the Government of Ireland since (Renewed cries of " Order.") 1835, why was not that motion, made in this House ? Mr. GRATTAN made a few remarks, which were in. This House is the House of Parliament in which formerly audible in consequence of the tumalt which prevailed. Parliamentary inquiries were moved.—( Hear, hear.) The SPEAKER said he was sure that Hon. Members I say if there is any proceeding of a grave character would see the necessity of complying with the rules of the to be instituted, that proceeding must be instituted before House, by abstaining from making remarks on the presen- the House of Commons ; and, therefore, the most proper tation of petitions.—( Hear.) course is to move for an inquiry in the House of Mr. O'CONNEL La-Sir, I was doing so, and the Hon. Commons, and to ask the House of Commons to give Member for Monaghan, who affected to speak to order, an opinion upon the propriety of that inquiry.—( Loud has brought forward no matter of order. He did not cheers.) I ask those who were in favour of this in hear the laugh. That laugh was disorderly, an d I h a d a quiry—those who have told us year after year since the right to complain of it.—( Order.) If he presumes to as- year I 535, that the Irish Government was unworthy of sail me, I tell him—( Loud cries of " Order.")—l ask no coefiaence—that it was favourable to outrage, and almost immunity.—( Renewed cries of " Order.) The Honour- g ivin g encoura g ement to murder—l ask why' they did not able and Learned Member then presented petitions this Is proper to move in this House any motion for inquiry, from Dringlass, in the county of Tyrone, to the same but confine themselves to a motion for papers. Sir, I can effect as the preceding one ; from Tyrone, signed by 1.700 only conclude from this proceeding, what makes it more persons, the Rector of the parish being Mortimer O'Sulli- essential that this House should come to a decision van ; from Enniskillen, signed by 1,300 persons; from upon the question, that not expecting to have a parishes in the counties of Leitrim, Westmeath, Roscom• majority of this House in favour of the inquiry—that not mon, and Kilkenny ; from Cashel, signed by 700 persons, being able to carry a vote of censure in this House, it was from Donoughmore, county Down ; Tartallaghan, county determined to transfer to the other House of Parliament a of Armagh ; St. Patrick, Waterford ; Mahera, and another proceeding by which a stigma and slur might be cast pariah in Londonderry ; Enniskillen, Fermanagh ; New- upon the Government.—( Cheers.) Now against that townards, Down ; Castlejordan , King's County ; Ballybro- proceeding I protest ; and if I were one of those who gan, Meath ; Loughgall, Armagh ; Ballykil, Kerry ; Clon- thought this inquiry necessary, I should equally protest, I fracle, Tyrone; Killeshandra, Cavan ; Killentree, \Vex- should equally say, I think the government of the ford; Ardchat, Meath; Kilqueen and Kilmurry, Wicklow; Marquis of Normanby most mischievous and injurious, Cloonish, county of Fermanagh ; Kilmohan, county Kerry; but I will not, as a Member of the House of Corn St. Mary's Donybrook ; Monaghan, in the county of' mons, refuse to pronounce an opinion upon that—l will Monaghan; St. Thomas's, Dublin ; St. Ann's Dublin ; not abdicate the right of the House of Commons to inquire. Lissalgarran, Queed's County ; St. James, Dublin ; Holy- —I will not abandon the ancient practice of the House of mahar, and Nore, Dublin; Kilmas, Dublin ; Glenask, Commons to censure and controul its Government.-1 Fermanagh, Kinnegad, Westmeath ; Kills, Meath; Barra, will not consent to pass in silence the misgovernment of Core, and Dalouth, Meath ; Baldoyle, Dublin ; Cole- which I complain, but I will ask the House of Commons marth, Down ; Nenigh, Tipperary, signed by 4,000; to pronounce with me a vote of inquiry, and fix the Kilross ; parishes in Wicklow, and Donegal; St. Michael, same censure which the House of Lords has fixed to those and St. John, Dublin; Duff, Donegal ; Waterford ; Tho • proceedings.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, it is then stated that mas-town, Kilkenny ; Staley Bridge (England) signed by all proceedings in any way will be an interference with the some hundreds of Irishmen at work there, who had suffered House of Lords. I cannot perceive that. If the motion under Orange domination in Ireland, and who entreated the be right, proceed in the same way that the House House not to restore its baneful sway, and from parishes in of Lords has done, and say that we are not afraid to ask Tyrorte,Antrim,Cavan,Down,Fermanagh,Queen's County, the opinion of the House of Commons—we entertain an Tipperary, Limerick, and the City of Waterford. The opinion with respect to the conduct of the Irish Govern Hon. and Learned Gentleman then said he should re- ment, and are not afraid to ask the House of Commons to serve the presentation of the rest of the petitions which he decide upon it—we will not shrink from asking the House had till to-morrow. of Commons to decide upon it.—( Hear, hear.) If Hon. Mr. SHE IL presented 39 petitions from the County of Members opposite hold this language, how can they concur Tipperary to the same effect, signed by upwards of in the p revious q uestioa of the Right Hon. Baronet ? 23,000 persons. But Sir, if we are to pronounce an opinion in conformity Mr. D. ROCHE presented several petitions from Lime- with that which I venture to ask of you, if it is said that rick, signed by upwards of 8,600 persons, praying that the that opinion will interfere with the undoubted righ• of the Orange faction might not return to power—( Hear, hear) [louse of Lords, I think it necessary to ask the Elouse to —and that the present Government might be regarded as pause a little, to consider not what is their right, but what a patriotic one. is the usual, and has been the necessary, practice of the The O'CONOR DON presented several similar pe- Constitution. With respect to legislation itself, it is an titions from Roscommon. undoubted right in the House of Lords to reject any Bill Lord STANLEY presented a petition from Rochdale, that may be sent up from this House, tut if that right is to praying that the House would not take any steps to adopt be carried to the extreme—if they were to reject the Con any resolution, or express any opinion t en di ng t o pre- soliditated Fund Bill—the whole country would b e judge the question submitted by the House o f L or d s thrown into confusion. If the country should he b r o u ght t o investigation, or pronounce a v e rdict on a case, into a state of war, and the Lords disapproving of it should at present under tr ial, before the hi g hest tribunal throw out all the Tax Bills sent them, though it in the country , suc h a course not being consistent would be the undoubted right of the Lords to do so , with the maxims of ordinary justice. it would be impossible for the eountry and this House not On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL the orders of the to pronounce some opinion upon the subjsct. So far as to day were read over for the purpose of postponing them. the right of leislation. What then is the ptactical under- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought standing to which all parties have come for p a long period ? I should say that where there is a Bill sent from this up the Report of the Consolidated Fund Bill. [louse upon a very important subject, and upon which MINISTERIAL POLICY IN IRELAND. there were very considerable numbers upon the one side Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said—Sir, on and on the other, on which there is only a small majority, the 21st of March last the House of Lords resolved to ap- the that the representatives of the people arc very House of Lords may ' m o st naturally and justly say it point a Select Committee , to in q uire into the state of Ireland since the year 1835, wi t h res p ect to crime and appears nearly divided upon this subject. We cannot think outrage,life and property insecure s which have rendered that the country has yet made up its mind to this in that part of the empire. Sir, I thought it my duty on change ; let it be re-considered another year, and let us the very next day to state the views which I took of that know whether the change is a change that is called for by resolution of the House of Lords, and to say that I should the people. On the other hand, if there is a Bill sent from ask fur the expression of an opinion of this House this House repeatedly by large majorities, declaring the sense with respect to the administration of affa i rs in Ire- of the country, why then it is usual for the House of Lords, land. Sir, with respect to the importance of that even holding an opinion against such a Bill, and adding motion both to Ireland and the United Kingdom, the abstract right to reject it at once, it is usual, in the it is quite unnecessary that I should sa y an y thin g . With exet cise of tneir discretion and wisdom, to say we will not regard to the anxiety which I feel on the subject of the opp ;se it, since it is the general sense of the country, re motion that I have now to make, it is impossible that I poatedly expressed, and we will confirm what is the opi should adequately s express my feelings. I shall therefore nion of the House of Commons. But, Sir, with respect proceed, Sir, at once to state my views with respect to the to the Executive Government, the case is somewhat resolution of the House of Lords, and with respect to an different, there may be, and there have existed, at dif amendment of which notice has been given by a Right ferent times differences of opinion between the two Houses Hon. Gentleman opposite. There are some points in that amendment which, perhaps , it is n ecessar y that I should with respect to legislation. One can eas il y ima g in e this House agreeing to a Bill and the other diss e n tin g from it , notice before I go into the main subject of discussion to night. It is necessary , Sir , that I should not ice that part and that the two Houses may remain at variance a con. of the amendment which says that the expression called . siderable time without any great evil happening to the for is only an expression of opinion. It is necessary country. At the same time there are excepauns, and that I should notice that part of the amendment which says there has been an exception of so grave a nature that Lord that the expression called for is only an expression of opi- Grey's Government, with the consent of, 1 believe, every nion on one up part of thepolicy of the Executive Go Member but one, did advise so large a creation of Peer s as verment. Sir, the reason p why I have proceeded to would, in fact, have overwhelmed the independent of voice ask for an opinion upon one part of the policy of the of the House of Lords. But with respect to the Executive, Executive Government is because it is that part there cannot be such a difference of opinion —with of its policy alone on which the resolution has respect to Executives, you must have an Executive in one been entered on the journals of the other House. part or i n another. You cannot have Ireland governed by Let the [louse of Lords, if they should think it fit, carry a Lord [laddington and Lord Mulgrave.—(l - lear, hear.) vote of censure upon other parts of the policy of the Go- You cannot have it conducted according to the opinions vernment, and then I should think it equally impossible of the Right Hon. Gentleman and Lord Melbourne. —(Cheers.) It is quite clear one or other would be for the Government to re main at the head of affairs, unless we were assured of possessing the confidence of this taken, and one also or the other would give confidence to House.—(Loud cheers.) If it should please them to the existing Ministry. Now the question upon thi s o ._ ccasion ie,. whether or not the House of Commont prepare y, . . enter into the question of the policy of the Government same should opinion cr d to sa now that the House o f at home I shall be perfectly prepared to meet them. With i.. 3 Lords have expressed their opinion with respect respect to Colonial affairs there are now some measures to the . Executive Government, this EL h m e se enterthts not, they orwheter E enterta . in e ingt the in this House, and others will be introduced which will give them an opportunity of deciding upon our Colonial d future be y conducted are policy. If it shall please them to attack our policy withthe Executive Government the sense of the House of willing acco ing to respect to Foreign affairs, I; am sure that my Noble Friend Lords. e ld Now, Sir, I beg to inform the House such has the Secretary in that department, if: they take that tue not hitherto been It is quite true that for a long the case. for discussion we will not be afraid to answer them. Should , um peried of time, owing, as I think, to the corruption of this they find fault with our conduct in the affairs of . 13.1gi House,'exercised • and the influence over it by the Crown, which are now about to be settled, a question which and by individual members of the Hous e of Lords, th ere at one time threatened to involve Europe in a war, [think was no positive difference of opinion. But in former days we should be able to answer that charge.—( Loud cheers. ) - 1 there lied been on and this House more differences of opini , . If it is imputed to us that our national honour has sur d 1 has not scruled to declare its opinion upon the subject. feted in any degree in the dispute between France and Sir, inthe early of the last century there was a dif- Mexico—( Cheers from the Opposition)—l think my Noble 1 . Friend will be able successfully to answer oven that charge. i terence of opinion with respect to some persons, caused by the conspiracy in favour of the Pretender.— Should they, however, take another field, and turn to the ' affairs of the Foreign Department, which come s under , ( Hear, hear.) The opinion of t he House of Lords was rather unfavourable than otherwise to the Government. the superintendence of my Right Honourable Friend the President of the Board of Control, I think that upon 1 The House of Lords decided upon entering into the that subject also we would be able to show that ove , examination themselves. This House immediately pro. have not been unmindful of British interests, and have ' tested against it. In one of the protests they said— " Your faithful Commons believe the administration of the tried sedulously to avoid war. I wait till those charge . Government best served when it is left to your Majesty, _wit c h shall be brought forward before we shall think it necessary to bring them under the consideration of the House. It whom the law has t a ru_s e t o e t d io t o t ; to o and o have so k firm an a d de o p u e r nd g e r n ea e t i 3 not from any fear or apprehension that the con- wisdom,tip oi you t r hat Majesty's affection they can never apprehend so little your from duct of the Executive Government can justly be any conspiracy as when the examination thereof is under your charged tiitb having entailed any dishonour upon the ' Majesty's direction. emptr • e that see do not bring these things now before " Your faithful Commons do, therefore, most earnestly de. the House. Sir , ft has p leased those who condemned the sire your Majesty to suffe r no diminution of that prerogative House of Commons. " Can you state to the Committee h ow th ese persons (rasantey of Limerick) support themsel ves ?—Th ey gene rally contrive to get what is called a quarter of ground for planting potatoes ; in which they plant probably as much as will ansl‘er their families for the season, if the weather turns out favourable. I have often seen those people eating potatoes and salt : and the manner in which I have seen them lying was really shocking. I have seen, in many instances, a thing which grows upon the bog, the sedge of the bog, strewed over the corner of the habitation, and very little covering; and I found them all lying together in that state that was really very shocking." Mr. Btackburne.—WhiteboyOutrage.—House of Commons, 1825. " They continued to beat and belabour this unfortunate man (King, who had lately taken a farm, of which another had been dispossessed) for an hour and a half: they affected to give him time to say his prayers, but they beat him in the way I have described, and left him, supposing he was (lead ; that was one of the worst outrages that has come to my knowledge ; and the Committee will regard it as a singular circumstance, that though the people of the country could have got rid of Keilley (the servant of King, who was known to be charged with a murder) by giving him up to the law, and having him sent to Kerry, to stand his trial for murder, they preferred effecting their object by doing justice, as they call it, themselves." Another eminent author ( Mr. Arthur Young, says— " Government offered very large rewards for informations, which brought a few every year to the gallows without sny radical cure for the evil. The reason why it was not more effective was, the necessity of any persons who gave evidence against them quitting their houses and country, and remaining exposed to their resentment." Was this state of things owing to overmuch liberality on the part of the then Government,—(Load cheering.) Was it attributable to the excessive clemency of the Administration of those days ?—(Cheers. ) Was it the consequence of too great favour lavished upon the Roman Catholics ?,-( Cheers. ) Why, Sir. we have it on rt•cord that Ireland during the whole 'Of that dreadful pe riod, except a few short glimpses under the Administration of Lord Fitzwilliam, and when the advice of Mr. Grattan, was acted upon in 1836 was governed by the severe and ~t ern rule of those very men who now come forward and complain of the outrages and horrors that have of late disgraced Ireland—( Cheers)—as if, indeed, those horrid and disgraceful occurrences were the exclusive production of Lord Normanby's Government 1—( Loud cheers from the Liberal side.) Thus either blinding themselves to the truth, or wilfully concealing the fact, that that awful state of things was the offspring of their own rule ; that that con dition of social misery was the result of a long series of foregone opp - ession, whilst the intolerable tyranny of the landlords of past times had been often denounced by the men then in office, and yet no effectual remedy for their cruelties was brought forward, and whilst also an intole rable faction had trampled over the feelings, the liberties, and the interests of the great majority of the Irish people. —( Loud cheering.) Sir, I have thought it necessary to take this short retrospective view, that this House may not suppose, should it agree to the sentiments already passed by a majority in the House of Lords, that the present dis turbances and outrages in Ireland are the production of of the present Government, or that it is that Government which has rendered life and property insecure in that part of the empire. —(Cheers.) It certainly is the object of the opposite party to make an impression on this House and the country that those outrages are quite new, as if the like had never before been heard of. But I have al. ready shown how easy it is to prove that the crimes and social miseries now afflicting Ireland are the consequences of former misrule, and that the state of the country was formerly much worse than it is now. And therefore if a motion similar to that passed in the other House should be brought forward here, I shall protest, as Lord Normanby did, against any inquiry which professes to limit its investi gation to the period that has elapsed since 1835, as being entirely inadequate to the cases which it would include, and as wholly incomplete with respect to its object. If there should be an investigation at all it should proceed much farther back. But, with respect to former times, what are the facts? In 1524 and 1825 Committees of both Houses of Parliament were appointed to inquire into the state of Ireland, and the result of those inquiries has long since been laid upon the table of this House. But then there is another question—Lord Normanby undertook the Go vernment of Ireland in 1835. Lord Anglesey and Lord Wellesley had been Lords Lieutenant before him. When those Noble Lords entered upon their duties there were evils in Ireland—evils of ancient growth—which might be obviated indeed by wisdom and vigilance, but which it would be impossible to remedy effectually within a few years. But, Sir, there is another important feature in the question. When the Government was aFsurrn din 1830, Ireland had been 4 subjected, at various periods, not only to moral and soc al evils, . but also to a process of political agitation ; and it is a question most materially affecting the Government of Ireland, most materially affecting the first proceedings of the Marquis of Anglesey, most materially affecting what was done under (..ord Wellesley and Lord Normanby, that the history of Ireland is peculiar in this one respect, which has been ably stated by Lord Grenville in the House of Lords. That Noble Lord said he disagreed in opinion with those who reproached the Irish people for the feelings they evinced for the concessions that had been made to them by - - - the Givernment of this country ; for, said Lord Grenville— " There is one circumstance in the history of the Catholic concessions which deserves to be particularly considered. From the first concession, 1777, down to 1782, and thence to 1793, they have all been made under circumstances of greater or less political difficulty ; and though no one will say it was an un wise policy, when we were entangled with a civil war in America, or when we were menaced with a foreign war with France, to endeavour by conciliation and union to strengthen our resources at home; yet it may have been suspected—most unjustly I readily admit—that these concessions were not the result of legislative wisdom, nor the offspring of justice and liberality ; not the consequences of an enlarged and compre hensive policy, embracing the general welfare of the whole empire; but a benefit extorted from us under the influence of apprehension and danger." —( floar, hear.) Another great authority—the late Mr. Wilberforce—in adverting to the Catholic question, says— " I can remember the recognition of Irish independ ence, and how those who had talked of it as almost trea son made no attempt to oppose it; while, if any objection was suggested thei e was a general hush, and it was whispered they have 40,000 volunteers in arms.' My experience in Parliament and of the country convinces me that when some alarm arises in Ireland--a war or an insurrection—everything will be given up at once, as it then was, without those secu rities for ourselves or that benefit for Ireland, which might now bo provided." Mr. Wilberforce prophecied that the like would occur again, and the sequel proved that lie was a true prophet. In 1782, every thing was given up to the Volunteers from the eppre• hensions of an insurrection. In 1793, that Franchise Bills, which had before been contemptuously rejected, was carried amidst apprehensions of a war with France. And what was the issue of the Catholic question? Fox, Grattan, Lord Plunkett, Canning, Brougham —ail these emi . nent :r.en exerted their powerful and brilliant elo quence on behalf of the Catholics, but they exerted it in vain. They made no impression towards effecting an equality of privileges for our Roman Catholic brethren. But justice was granted to them, as was justly remarked by my Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford, on the first day of the Session, from fear—cer• tainly it was gi anted to them under circumstances of poli tical difficulty, such as those mentioned by Lord Grenville, and under the apprehension of those insurrections alluded to by Mr. Wilberforce.—(Cheers.) With Lord Gren ville and Mr Wilberforce, then, Sir, I say, that those con cessions which were made to Ireland under circumstances so suspicious, to say the least of them, could not call forth much gratitude—( Cheers) —not strong feelings of content • ment—(Cheers)—not those sentiments which a just series of kind concessions would have been sure to pro duce.—( Cheers.) Therefore it has been that the people of Ireland, seeing that it was only through a system of intimidation they had been successful, determined to per severe in that system. And when Lord Anglesea under took the Government of Ireland, such was the state of political agitation—such was the extent of social misery— and such was the diversity of disorder, that in the opinion of that Noble Marquis a severe system of coercio❑ was necessary to aid the law in the repression of those evils. The Cabinet of that day proposed that coercion law, and I do not mean to deny that a part of the responsi bility of its introduction attaches to me.—( He , r.) In agreeing to and proposing that law, I thought the time was come when we ought to look more deeply into the condition of Ireland, that we ought to consider whether we could not lay the foundation of a better system, which a mere temporary law of that kind could not do, and whether it was not fit to consort the temper and wishes of the people of Ireland, and whether the same freedom which we pos sess in our own country might not be as effi cacious in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, -hear.) Now, Sir, with respect to the accusation that has been made, that ac cusation extends only to the period of the Government of Lord Normanby, and it is to that period, and to that Govern. ment only, therefore, I need direct attention, always being ready to assume any responsibility to which I may be justly liable.—(Hear.) Sir, I should remark, in stating the condition of Ireland, when Lord Normanby undertook its government, which was in April 1835, that those evils which I have described in the state of the country still existed.—( Hear.) It will appear from the statements made lately, more especially from the speech reported to be the speech of Lord Oxmantown, that the character of the peasantry of Ireland had entirely changed during the present Administration—that a spirit of outrage had grown up among men who had formerly been harmless. Now what is the description given by Lord Oxmantown to Lord Wellesley ? I will read an extract from Lord Wellesley's dispatch to Lord Melbourne, April, 1834: " A complete system of Legislation, with the most prompt, vigorous, and severe Executive power, sworn, equipped, and armed for all purposes of savage punishment, is established in almost every district. On this subject I cannot express my opinions more clearly, nor with more force nor justice, than your Lordship will find employed in a letter addressed by Lord Oxmantown, Lieutenant of the King's County to Mr. Littleton. Lord Oxmantown truly observes, that the combination surpas ses the law in vigour, promptitude, and efficacy, and that it is more safe to violate the law than than to obey it." —( Hear.) Such, Sir, was the description given by Lord Oxmantown in 1834, and in another place he says that such is the miserable condition of the peasantry, that it is impossible to form an adequate colic, ption of it, and mane were Induced in consequence to go to America. Sir, I have no doubt that Lord Oxmantown truly de scribed the state of things in 1834, but what a monstrous injustice it really is to come down to Parliament in 1839, and refer to outrages that existed at that period and laying them to the fault of the Go vernment which only begun in 1835.—( Hear, hear ) Such, Sir, then was the state of the country, when Lord Normanby undertook the administration of its affiirs Now, S.r, there are certain charges made with respect to it, which I shall notice in the first place before I describe the general tenor of them.—(Hear, hear.) One of the greatest evils existing in Ireland, which is de scribed in all the evidence taken before the Committees is the distrust of the people in the laws. It is stated by Mr Leslie Foster, Mr. Justice Day, whose opinions no person can question, that there is a getieral dis trust in the law. The Noble Lord quoted the following passages:— Evidence, House of Lords, 1825. M.P. John Leslie Foster, Esq. " To what circumstances do you attribute the frequent dis turbances in Ireland of late years?—l think the proximate cause is the extreme physical misery of the peasantry, coupled with their liability to be called upon fur the payment of different charges, which it is often perfectly impossible for them to meet. The immediate cause of disturbance I con ceive to be the attempt to enforce these demands by the various processes of the law. We are also to take into consideration that they are living under institutions for which they have neither much affection nor much respect. I have assigned what I conceive to be the proximate causes of the disturbances. I think the remote one is a radically vicious structure of society which prevails in many parts of Ireland, and which has ori ginated in the events of Irish history; and whic•h may be in a great measure palliated, but which would, I fear, be extremely difficult now wholly to change." Evidence, House of Commons. 1832, Matthew Singleton,Esq., Chief Magistrate of Police, Queen's County. " There is scarcely an outrage committed relative to lands, but what the people assign a cause for, if I may se that ex pression ; in some intances the unfortunate people do show one. What are the Committee to understand by showing a cause ?—Oppression, high, rents, low wages, and contracts being broken. Do you give credence to all the oppressions stated?—ln many cases Ido give credence. I have seen, and I know land to be let one-third above its value." Evidence, House of Commons, Mr. John Cahill, Surveyor and Civil Engineer. _ _ " State generally what has beCiome of th^m ; (1,126 poor people ejected). Do they continue wandering about ?--I have known on one. estate which is near me, and which I had regu lated for a gentleman, there has been a great many of the old people turned off that became beggars, and a good many of them died of want. Do you mean they died from want ?—A kind of distress ; being turned out of their houses, and many of them became beggars and died; some of them are labouring in different parts of the country, but the old people in general died ; 1 can state to the Committee the number that died to my own knowledge." Mr. Justice Day.—House of Lords, 1825. " Have the actual distuiloances in Ireland originrated in re ligious differences, or in what other causes ?"—" The recent disturbances in Ireland have not had anything to do religion." "In what causes did they originate, in tour opi nion ?".—." The poverty of the people, which exposes them to the seductions of every felonious or turbulent leader ; the want of employment ; the absence and non-residence of land lords, who might superintend, controul, and advise, the want of education, which leaves them in a semi-barbarous state, and incapable of judging for themselves. These are some of the vicious and combining causes which may be enu merate 1. The severe and unconscionable rents too often extracted from the peasantry ought not to be forgotten. There was a system (now diminishing, thank God !) of sub-infeuda tion which, prevailed through Ireland, and which, after a suc cession of sub-letting, left scarcely anything to the miserable occupying peasant to subsist upon. Every man, on this grada tion of evil and unfortunate system, must have a profit, save the occupier, who pays all, is exposed to the distress of all and starves himself. To this system are owing much of the suffer ings of the south of Ireland." " I repeat that religion seems to me to have had little or no effect in the south of Ireland in the late disturbances. No doubt where religion mixes, it will exasperate and combine to a fatal extent." Dr. Doyle's Admonition.—House of Commons, 1832. " He instructed the faithful, that whosoever assists, encour ages, aids, or abets the Whitefeet, Blackfeet, &c., by coin mand, advice, consent, by praise or flattery, becomes an accom plice in their guilt and a partner in their crimes." Hovenden Stapleton, Esq. —House of Commons. " What number of acres .to those persons (farmers connected with Whitefeet) generally hold ?—One of them holds a consi derable nutnb.r ; I dare say about thirty or forty acres of land ; and I think his brother holds a considerable deal more." There are various instances mentioned in proof of it, one of which I will advert to. A person bad com mitted a murder, which caused him to retire to ano ther part .f the country, where he was obnoxious, and the people there would not give him up to justice, according to tho course of law, but took the law into their own hands and beat him so severely that his life was despaired of. An. other instance occurred on the estate of the present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. He was prepossessed in favour of the son of a small farmer On his return to Ireland, after having been some time in this country, he missed the young man, and upon his asking his father what had become of him he was told that he was waylaid one evening on coming home, struck severely with a stone, and after lin weeks died of the wound. Th e f armer added ge ring a few that he knew who was the perpetrator of the deed, upon which Lord Fortescue said, " Why do you not bring him then to justice ?" To which the farmer replied, "On no, we the party well who has done it, and at a future period we will do as much injury to them." Does not that, I would ask, show that the people :of Ireland would resort EVRNIIVCI, 1-4711)TTION • to any sernedy rather than the law ? ( Hess - , hear.) app ars to ow that one of the great causes fo r this distrust _ in the law is that the law has never been a dministered . I , in such a way that the people could have confi dence that every man bad equal justice; ani among other things, there was a general belief that where persons had to undergo a criminal trial, those persons called on the Jury, who were known to entertain political opini?as hostile to the Crown, particularly Catholics, were set eel" far more frequently than justice required.—( Hear.) Pai°s the were taken by Mr. O'Loghlen not to 0-'0 up right of the Crown, and notching had been done tIP i, to the time of Lord Wellesley undertaking the Govern ment to give the people confidence in the administra tion of the law. The people of Ireland arc a people wh o can sr preciate the value of justice, and if justice is clone great change will take place in the people in resorting to the protection of the law. Altogether the returns wh ich have been made show satisfactorily that in conseq uen ce of just ice being done, greater confidence and trust has been placed M. Juries, and there has been no want of efficacy. Now pro of of hat I have an account of the committals with respect to tomicide in Ireland, from the year 1832 to 1838 :-- Constabulary Reports. Committals. Convictions. 1832 1533 1834 1835 1836 1837 1838 S) that it will appear if the year 1833 is compared eith the year 1838 that in the former year the coevictions were forty per cent., while in 1838 they were forty-six pe rcent : These are the returns of the Inspectors of Prisons. I shall not go now into the various returns of the Clerks nf the Peace and the Clerks of the Crown, although ' it respect to these returns a very ingenious mode has been e resorted to of swelling the number of offences.--( He ar. ' The return of the Clerks of the Peace and Crown contain e a very great number of offences, including pollees t e h e whole of those left over from one year, and those to a • tried in the next year—and they often contain the sail effenc( s three times over —( Hear, hear, hear.) There is, for instance, an assault, a robbery, and a rescue, all committed by the same party, but set d°", as three distinct offences by these authorities, and V es t,v Right Honourable Gentleman, the Member for the versity of Dublin, moves for the return of the Clerks of the Peace and Crown for those different years, I hope the Ol rrcter of these returns will be properly ascertained. A f though it may be said that the returns of the inspectors ° prisons contain too few, and the others contain too Me n Y d t offences, yet a most ingenious method has been resorteiti to of taking one class, for the purpose of spewing the r est :, r of the administration of our Lord Lieutenant, and the ete c e to show that of the opposite party—( Loud cheel; just as if I were to make a comparison between the Pert a of 1830 and 1838, and that in 1830 I took only the °r fences tried at Assizes, while in 1838 I took all 'the c - Jences tried at Quarter Sessions and Assizes ; that I b ; lieyc it the method by which it is endeavoured to be 0 1 , 3 ,rut that a vast increase of crime has taken place in ' re- e laid of late years. There was one instance which call!. attention to this, because there was a return shown that ts a a offences in the county of Tipperary at one period arn o M it a e r , to 300 and upwards, and in the course of a few, Y e n - e . the number was increased to three thousand a ma a' wards; this was of course a most extraordinari disparity, and attention was directed to the subject, Lod hope that when unfair statements are made against J. N nmanby, such gross exaggerations will not be atterneteot —( Loud cheers, and a cry of " Name, name.") I e ln e n e er alluding to any Hon. Member, but eenerally to theM e a 7a r , in which impressions base been made against Lord manby's Government ; and I cannot see any great haY' e l ii contradicting statements, when they are so notortoeuso wrone.—(l-lear, hear, and cheers.) Now, Sir, I sh ear, take all the offences, including those tried at Petty 74 signs, and I shall take the two years, 1833 and q i . be and compare them aith the years 1837 and 1838. Noble Lord then read the following return : ,ANS. ALL OFFENCES, INCLUDING PETTY sESSe•aetee - 833 834 21,381 ......... ..• 2 0" 39,200 ...... , a _ l Bs 24,453 ..... "• .... 19, 25,443 ............ 0 4 49,896 - :902 ... 9 1830 1838 In the former two-thirds; in the latter three-fourthe• • ;/ h est This shows that from one of these periods; - t est other there was no want o f c onv i c tions, a n '' f eels the system adopted by Lord Normanby for ensurin c t if had worked well.--( Hear.) Now, Sir, I 3 1 9 1 , i : i re's you can make the law fully efficacious, if you can flyou the people with a belief in its strict impartiality, arid jaa can bring them to take part in th e a d m i n i s tration ° age, tice, you will not merely be doing some g o od for the toot but you will be laying the foundations of that Pert / t he tranquility in Ireland which those who governed i r ot tee, spirit of Lord Roden, and with th e o pi n i on s of Lord ' e rs.) far nearly a .century, failed in est a blishing.--(C hea aed Now, Sir, with respect to another year (1830), at th e of which the Duke of W e llin g t o n w e n t out of (4:lei I the find that the offences in that year were /5,7 94, w ere convictions 9,902, while in 1838 the commitme ntl eae 23,440, and the convictions 19,229; showing that vi" : 0 61 in the former year only two thirds of those c onirra , be were convicted, ard in the latter case )honksthree-fo urtbL profe number were convicted. This, Sir,oftTe oo of the effect of the adminietration Lord Is manby.—( Loud cheers.) But, sir, there is another eate7, tion,—it may be said that although when pers °ll , s ,: r brought to trial, the law was fairly and justly adinin' i— ; ffl e e, yet there was no activity or energy in pursuing o ut eraaa s t Now with respect to that charge, I will say t a; t the energy of Lord Normanby was greater than " s s of any other Lord Lieutenant ; and I SaY as gr. proof of it, that one o f t h e fi rst acts 01 for O'Leghlen, when he was Attorney-Genera l ~,0 0 Ireland, was to i ssue di rect i ons t h a t the ; 1 : - ba J should prosecute at Q uarter S ess i ons o ff enc es whic sed been Litherto left unprosecuted, such as faction fi g ht. pa those bloody f eu d s w hi c h ten d e d to ma ke the Pe° for brutal arid demoralised, and fitted them afterwards ip, murder, which, from there being no persons to take IM peg , terest in their prosecution, had been previceuslY whollYtbase lected. It is related of former times, and I 11 0 1 ) e to ol times have long sin ce p asse d away , t h at the Meg i Ltie°, not only did n o t p rosecu t e . b ut , w i t h regar d to these •e a pt fights, that they often favoured one side or the oth er e ',..se favoured and encouraged the people in these outaagmeet, ( Hear, hear.) I do not impute that to any Goya° IA of nor do I refer to th e Ad m i n i s t ra ti on w hi c h went 0 of office in 1830, but I do say that there were man,' and it that sort of which the laws took no cognieance, an" t t he is in a great measure owing to these prosecutions &l e the number of convictions has been increased. Sir, I am s e ur t eefe, House will agree with me in thinking that althoug" o va ni iy base been an increase of offences, the course P a ti e t he by us was the best, and has been fully justified w ' r e oaa results. Why, Sir, I have had an increase of ; 0 mienents in a town as littl e su bj ec t to outrsg e na tb , Any other in the kingdom—l mean the town o f th ere When quarter sessions were appointed in that WO' e pti; was a very great in cre ase i n th e num b er o f conam i l e be What was the cause of that? Not that the Pe°P " gl ee b• - come more criminal—not that crime had becom e „ I V rife in that opulent and peaceable town—but that 00 11 these crimes were prosecuted, the law was more aig °r e e is enforced. Sir, I say that course has been P ursu e, Ireland, and it has been borne testimony to, not °epee persons of the same political opini ons , b u t by those h° o ever totally adverse opinions, and who had said that 0 0 : m 44 knew the power of th e l aw en f orce d w i t h more aa ot ees than during his administration.--( Loud cheers.) A toll complaint has been made w ith regar d to the el I,o o ' of the prerogative of mercy. It appears that. di roc Normanby has been very mu c h at t ac k e d f o r esercilbiob much clemency. Ido not mean to go into that es' e ' a etb es was debated it, this House in 1837. The questionni leer fully debated on the one side, and on the o ther 15 ' ll sive' i rather to the general principl e u p on w hi c h that preroe s o i s exercised, and what has been during the last fe w Y ve r b Ireland. Sir, it has happened i n Ireland, and I beliavoach properly, that the exercise of that high prerogst ife be in this country is n o t e xercis e d s o l e ly i n regard t ot th e eions of the Judges or the circumstances attendl ere trial, but embeaces various other circumstances w h i l re tad mentioned in the pardon—l say it has happened in ad re f that the exercise of that prerogative has often ° ference to the security or disturbed treacle" es s. the country. The Noble Lord quoted this instancel'efeet)ef " Sentence of death was passed upon them (the W, lll dis t ' but with an intimation to theinagistrates of the coueo: 0 ' u htb e l the county was tranquillized in the meantime, they ° 5 00 1 . 0 recommended to transportation ; and the magistrates a' 0 1 in August, and recommended the sentence to be corron consequence of the improved state of the county." , This shows that because Lord Normanby ex ec it hed prerogative of mercy in a manner. in which perbsP e gi ae s not usually been, it is not therefore an argunlea. e a t i cb such rn exercise of it. Lord Normanby exe rcic- o f prerogative in a manner which the social conditiolaaa f; is bs land rendered right and proper, and in that coent",, ilia right that in the exercise of the more or less disturbed state of the country e°° lo . 1 9 A prerogative °f mee,r.Cajla'' taken into consideration, as well as the s ture of the offence committed —( Hear, bet",,etsl, great deal has been said respecting the ri;.ollber "revs, in whose behalf the prerogative :lad been e!, c at it appears that in 1837 there had leeen decided 170 Of those cases in which the pue.ishment had becy'ivir od muted, 49 were cases of perso ns co nvicted of bawls Vet licensed arms in their possassion, or of pers a°s ne rollO c b been fined for minor offenc es . Of a ll the ease s c i a 0 1 01 by Lord Normanby, ther e were only three cases Ora s i the prisoners had been s en t ence d to transports b " soa c , e o their punishment was c ommute d, b ec ause it ha d fit s tetted titled by the surgeon that they were in an ",eat 113 ;lie undertake the voyage. It is important, Sne • a l •.; House, because it certainly circumstances should be held hi the recolleeti°fre We he consideration on the part of the Lord Lieutenant by o_o is called uoon to exercise the prerogative of mereY,„. is a case requiring "wave be commutation of' the sentence of transportation al ie pfv f other sentence, because ; e a! rogative, permitting those to return to their . 0 be a he is by such exercise t to ioe whom the Judges have thought proper persona V./ out of the country. The House will perceive that jua Normanby exercised the prerogative in only thre e h 0i .... , 11/ r , this nature, and that in each of these ca ses ° t he cot before him medical certificates , statine; ths' e , e ll ° iv sons whose cases had been thus commuted vrel hole be the d t to undertake the voyage. With re gar, t 0 utd bee of casos in which the sentence ha a been conlMences AV gross amount of time taken off feom the s an g. ' s o fa% 140 mcnths, to be divided amongst 69 prisoner 5. _ a o f ale i cm an average each prisoner obtained a re o m i le ni 7 o ,.. ieb weeks by this exercise of the prerogative oP or a the requires the exercise of greater carer tball tea believe, Sir, that there is no prerogs" ore lik e attentive consideration of circumstances. w ise t 0 if ou) intrust the exercise of that prcrog prerogative of mercy ; but I believe. ativerforni any Lieutenant, unless he is utterly unfit to p. it the duties of his office, you must leave to hin c s_ ab y alone, the consideration of the circurnstan e to the P wbielt IS)7 183 S I 1