The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

............ ••-• ber of the wing .the; .mbers itind that a personalT her Noble .... —.............,...a.,.--i-.10......wam ................... - -'"----.--- ....... "." 7 "e t hought if th ey cou l d b e of a conciliating temper and spirit I t ' "'" d '"ssing questions of this kind, they could better attend o•the advice rontained in her Majesty's speech, to apply their ilib,n_d_st.otor Improving the social condition of a e , eeple who were IT"", e kind-hearted and genereu , , but wino had been too ,al ,negleeted, and th us d eve l oping the i esources of that beau land. With res wet to the mo•ion ef the Nob.e Lord the l iernb er f or Londen,lit was a mere party attack of one great d ivision of th e H ouse upon the other, and, of course, they should all be found voting under their particular banners. sel.ord HO WICK, who was in the commencement of Insob tions somewhat iiiaudible, was understood to say that ' Rap litides the House it seemed, as far as the debate had yet te be admitted that no prospect had yet been held out by her I‘lajstys Government of a measure whieh should produce e m anter it and tranquillity in Ireland The House would re "'her that immediately before the Right Hon. and Learned °r ma got up to speak, the Right Hon. Banes the Se p-r`tare of State for the Home Department had risen for the rs u b r i l)° , s e, of explaining certain expressions used by him and ii which nad been adverted to by the Right Honourable D e n tnl ier for Kildare ( Mr. More O'Verrall). It a th a r t ea r r ' (1 to him ( Lord Howick ), he confessed, Zed e'e Right Hon. Gentleman's explanation we.; longer than the same :lot so clear as the words he tad originally used: but, , a . t thei -anie time, he had not perceived any material difference i r meanine. If he understood the Right lion. Baronet's erord s N om aright', he (Sir James Graham) had been told by his la t l,'„eriend the Member for the City of London ( Lord John sot ttiat we hart military occupation of Ireland, which was lie `l" er ned• The Right Hon. Gentleman replied (and . if , Mistook he could correct his words)—. , Yes, we have mut atZirteienpation of Ireland, and . it was necessary that - e wr est • "aye It when we saw obvious signs of a design d to of th tt from us by physical force." Thoie were the ss or 3 of th a e ; R ight Hon. Genileman. What was the real meaning Ile,,;'' oaYine they had military occupation of Ireland? ts rc ,u`e they perceived indications of an attempt to av h s ‘ it from them by physical force.—{ Hear, hear. ) eat " tk t did that mean, but that they were conscious that through disafr great body of the frisk% people there reigned a spirit of a e ' lt •°n—th a t they were retained in their allegiance, not by t he n f " of „duty',t but be a sense of prudence, in consequence of oree t Gov'ernment were able to maintain there— d t hei e r at ' hea r)—that their hearts were alienated from tili.ehmt, wasan 1115 real tested, not upon affection, but force? l etateeat Meaning, of what the Right lion. Gentleman her aia.ea---that was the real meaning of the measures whic ir doteitY't Government had adopted. But if that was the real it%a 0 things he wanted to know— and the Right 1 irahle Gentleman at the same time admitted, that Ile had state which could not permanently continue. T ilp ad told them that they could not always govern by force. of thin ' n ight do so for a time—for a short interval such a state Rot er g' 'flight be endured—but as a permanent instrument of we re then„-" in Ireland force was entirely ineffective. Those d,,, , i 7 vrord s of the Right Hon. Gentleman. But having Al ~‘ nat ad m i s sion—when the Right. Hon. Baronet, the trie e s T uer for Devonport (Sir G. Grey) having . quoted that had ,irnarkable declaration on the part of the Go,rnment, th e upted what were the means they proposed for recoverhing hehiaoections of the Irish people—what rational . prospect t r e . ): vail ed ut of getting rid of the spirit of disaffection wh f ic o l in p - theNolo. ; ... rit t ) rigst that people—what was the answer sor : for th e _,°i'd, the Secretary for Ireland? He was he Butfelt I;ehnetnlereal:kifE4ulty in which his Noble Friend found himself. tat the a question of such vast importance as i. that, texj, "la' holding the highest, situation in immediate , con- ' ie et , tei , with the Government of Ireland could do f ilo nn o g f but distrib°rYl'ard with some miserable details in de ence how tint n e n of patronage, and of attempting to prove that e r,'"u Food his intentions were towards Ireland. When zth e ea s c ant alt e h ti is tn N e o h b o le Friend could come forward with—while (Lord Howick) Knew his ireentions were f rei g :Z l a ' he stated—when he heard such a statement as Chit. 5e.(1. 4 1 ' Noble Friend, the case must be very serious indeed. te fleet a e r ' hear.) Had her Majesty's Government seriously tie t e l, e or, the import of the words they had used, ins o t licar e " t i t e e ereatnese of the danger those words f each e ' Did they suppose that in the existence o es ss keeneral disaffection as that, that it . was a L ' l 'ti f' ''fi t , er e they could wait for a more convenient sea -I:lttr'r er°l)° sing better measures—did they suppose that every tta, trueofdelay was not of the utmost importance ? Why, it tib ead , while peace lasted, while they were not attacked from 4, lee to ,lit3e.believeil there was no sort of danger of openresist exhibit t eir authority, and that if there were such resistance I slit s d , e .di he was certain it would be repressed. While peace f , t b i in g it Wa s true. But the very consequence of that state o `oar:, aa still improvement in Ireland was arrested Was fin e d relation of life wasmisoned, and the whole country thei r a " with strife and ill-blood ; men's passions raised, and l' r ode e n g e er e xcited one against the other, and a state of society wer e foe' which, he thought, must be intolerable to all who t ete oi , c is ed to abide amidst it. That might be the utmost ex- Nele the e l vil, and Ged knows, it was bad enough. But he qtrei gn "t b ad the reflected what would be the . resnit if a / ''re ir ., W ,Y broke out—what would be their situation if they e ligte ri ^' l ° tolled on to carry on a mortal struggle . for their Shot re ady ~ z: ii n of the whole population of . the empire were ee Y Were take part with them, but against them7when I ,4 itiss t h' e r e r ,ae, 00 the first favourable opportunity, to rise up P t ') ci v il -!'°vernment with that deadly hatred which sprung a 'ker et , th dissensions? Did they really consider how fear ul i ll s e lon en at ,"as? Peace mieht continue, but it was more than t hat t h e - ettel say that it was to last for ever. Did they not see ° O evere continuance of such a state of things furnished them, t } ie Y Pett • , 0 m tiree _. mis understanding, with a temptation, knowing ; otistee, °',Lngland's weakness, to ask for that which was in• 'oe, „e, , with her interests Did they not risk, by maint 4 1 ' ,I ttll a d eu rs a ir state of thing . s, the power of . earryingon n w o a ,% i "'Med i `age ? That was the effect of the polic y told °wards Ireland.—( Hear.) He knew what he should be , ...th a , ~titin „ _,' those were things which ought not to be publicly ,waise,-„"e,n--that the danger 7 of the country ought hardly to be 93' f ;h e '', Much less publicly mentioned in that House. If, 1 ,1 . 1 ee ' ,„ ear ing to speak of the danger they could get rid of , ere,i' er iee ; if, however they might delude themselves as to N o d b st ate of thing s he could believe that it was not under 'report Y those to whom the knowledge of it was -of such Nipt i ,, an ee--if he did not believe that to open the eyes of the f ri h t :tp .' is. ttoo e t h ar e ry s i i n tu g ati on in which they were placed wan the such measures as that situation required 17)191teedol that entertain that conviction,. he . should not have hir e fad of nat state of things. But, thinking so, he should „: I tich b e e h tn i , his duty if he did not tell them the danger in d k atin e ieved them to be ; and here he could net awe' eal s , i gan observation which had been made over and over t( to Jr el that House, that it was not the existence of agitation , r ! t 'l j n d that was the source of that danger, that it was not 4 1 , 112 ° ent language sped at meetings, that it was not the enor tlthe p'etnopulletitu.des that attended , those meetings, that it was not I,,,e'rP:al being organ ise d by _ the Repeal Association nor the r ent, that in themselves constituted the danger. Thos .:: Whi L ine rely the signs and symptoms of the disaffection i Retitl e the dange r really consisted. He believed there was no th a ,'!ernan of ordinary reflection who did not agree with him, Nett was the state of mind which prevailed amongst the im ttl,ation in that country which constituted, and alone consti itifed, the real danger. If so, did it not follow as a necessary Ott,.,,enee, that by merely repressing the outward signs of clis- Rae f et they did no real good, unless they removed that discon aij,rorn which the signs proceeded? Nay, instead of doing i t tt it was possible they might thereby increase the danger. fs, l eY might do so by blinding their eyes to the tl ic of its continuance, and by rendering more bitter th e ' b e , feelings of discontent by the very means which teA d look to repress the agitation. Then he said, if they were er 4; P of the policy of her Majesty's Government, they must et i 4 ier se h , . th e ether it had been directed to regain the affections tears People of Ireland or merely to repress the power of re ie weascad maintain external obedience to their authority. qedi, ll l 2 o from denying that force was necessary to t obtain ' h er titae 7 and to prevent the authority of the Executive Go ,e r e ;t and of the Imperial Parliament from insult. That ;1:i l'of by admi tted ; but he contended that the measures which tik :,, adopted for that pus oce should have been considered " 0 11; ; ;,, ea k t , c are, and of a very p nioderate character ; and that l ',:ie ti Cuined with others they would be of no avail. Now, tviiree4euteame to consider the conduct of her Majesty's Go fo'Y h ad ',!t. did appea r to him that whatever degree of vigour till' represstiiisPlayed, it was confined entirely to their measures lare, measures I external signs of disobedience ; and that even in th' o ' Of p rii , adopted fur that purpose there was a singular the re ea ,nee, of foresight, and of firmness ; but that with 4 ott icr d res .there had been combined little or nothing in tO a tt riin g o r f eet t ,tori. Of the measures having for their aim the th e Prert,isette affections of the Irish people, he must say °kr Peopl e h A held out were infinitely below what li Nei ft ° a right to expect, and infinitely below what the ,trae,, '' of the '''ti --) in the ease demanded. In the last session of Par hey,t-°4 of th 'very remarkable debate which took place on the folly an that et Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien), of / what ~,,,(rlhe Opposition) side of the House had stated . very th e r,el aed r _ ! the measures which they thought the situation l t t le ase ;Aired, He (Lord Howick) himself had . troubled a :yery full statement of his own opinions on the raj! dot ,Petha eiti c i a s, a s a. ,,P.' tu doing so he went beyond the strict line of helot 'espen"solat.Tleltendent Member of Parliament, having no Nitlt s e with I ,itY. and being able to boast of no personal ac- ' st, o ry o full Ireland. But he thought the situation of that i I he ll eß °Dini e , of danger that it was the duty of all who had I IV% Kroti rld ", thatto the neCessit , of a change of policy, to state l' P ßerf ° ,!‘ e rll ' ral s ° pinion, fer die consideration 0nt0.aj41 LJ , ,, ,, a ,rciocr.,,, that'oahned „Clif)pothsiis House. In reply what was te,;', °, bin - er ninent O p positio n side of the House, her Ma ' , Cu -. th, matte many objectiens to what was p r i , ,. th e ~so, t hat h is ?neeested nothin e whatever of their own. So pla ct ` a nne, ot:selio Noble Friend, the Member for London, et 'lie e i ti l aria ~, r ved that really they seemed to have changed taiil t '°f4 as'ltlenleti from the Opposition side seemed to be gill e e ':, f , o oa .,, s ti t,..eY e.o , were entrusted , vs , ith the solemn n their offi w..eh a i i ' o o sibili t ,"'_ o n nl tl J,,, to Parliami tl i,l o 't tr y, %,,P! of t -1 „, , :' „ ,. L scheme of . policy o ash eh mielt• JestsY i tin t .i nl e 1 ' t , Right 1111)`7 the distractions to at ' unhapp, , 15 y, e "ruble ta (kn. Gentlemen oppos it enseemed ens: he should ra thi' Gee4rPltlg—et tsh of criticising—perhaps, wising —p . er , a P s2 ed. Her Ma- 01 ' Y took ve"iment had, ine h of po i licy su ' g h ei to euegest• I, 4 ti ti eld 1, th e we _,,, at Lat. time, not ing-,, I.lal ttarropose:ao_t, recess to consider what measures . they e st, e,?flet th " , what were those measures of the Right tiel l who n et `, ecre t a r fSt t for the Home Depart- W are ertai n i, al __ y 9 A- 4 h e, ' Sh e . a . v ‘ t a o Ye dlit display _t i e the , best advantage i, , ,,T,"5t bas kit h all " 4 his toffercotol i the ho l w ou t s h e e . m —(Laugtter. ) nothing but ; :.'lll, that b e r io l l . ac count of emptuy could es. He had told them Jig ~e ' ;i t e e ll wa, ‘j, ton they were to introduce a Registration i ti ad to v , e the J ude an extension of the county franchise, ec`ttlire into te iern n voter s from some vexatious formalities. satetieeticito ofthe taawitioat a commission had been appointed to li at keta a ,, ° l am' . and practice in Ireland in relation . to the t Ph ' eibi,,'T Whi c h t ' h , aT td . that was all positively of the slightest qtitai i" he hi m i• Right lion. Baronet had to offer, at a h. Y k e ,,°ree of i ' e ,f had admitted was so critical that all the 1,,h, i , d o __ reia ti d lik,?, Hig h , "pt we b e ~ as arrayed against them, an . d was re it : t ile: lt ' liar o 4, Positive military force—that was all the s a ,o'S, • . ,, ,I. Was a h ie t; the Secretary of State for the Home De tistia'tlre „ r u t'', Wi th r ° 'uggest to the British House of Corn a - 8t ell t%e i f great] espeet to the Bill for registration, such nt ' Nt ,if • Y fed; s , ri tulv a gtven i n , and the extension . of thecohue ofe %p i, . le ap jitag e, a. , ~a leral and confiding spirit, would oe 't ti st `tear) ':t would that great and crying wrong ; 1„ 4, " bo ort vrole d n o t e trusted that it would be conceived in g r : l n, krid---- Hear, h lie a new insult concealed under the guise ' , fi le t . 11 0 ', 4 so, the ) He hoped it would turn out a real tte trle as , at th e w°t 'id remove a wrong which was very t 'i 11, "l itle se Ure '• he „ sarne time, unless it was coupled . with te e e f tis oei d e _ uld tell the Right Hon. Baronet its only th e ass end s r, that it would arms into the hands "f oth " re lacd tai ol cor tml . .er more . , and thus enable them to insist on the ' t al 1416 ° rel tibittantial grievances. With respect to eta s 0 to , ruve atin g to land, he trusted that that o :t , 3 lt hr t f, leitelyiPtrenteraclvianintaggeous but he confessed he some doubts on that point. tie, t ,nte:,'Pect ~4 , l,t i h a t the social condition of Ireland was lee„ all es ,Y can e ,' ,cy, neglected. Some improvement was d igi t d o ;ty' s G ov " er i n r, but it was another question whether Ly i tot ~e a th r iVing at tn t ; . :nt .had adopted the most judicious s a, ss ain cc could notat improvement ; and he c . onfessed c qt tta tio. iat cornrni, . c vvithout some apprehension, that 4 4 41 iLlifil'i•Whieb heresn' they might have excited vague i t „ e r „., tr ig. ,_, a ter there would be not a little diffi th 4 to - .Pas tlre 'lc could not but believe that a very much s i r , ee l , , ei real i m r sti tn N s em l oee e a i stie ..1) ovement now, would h iv . e done , tk ti 7 Jl,sf er r i. :_ , pl e en thisnsig tifferences, and quiet the molds of ' 4, 1 I P% Ilad ` 1 1 ) t° a late r t fettr!jeet, than even a much larger mea- ' tia p _er eas _ a ee n „ lore y, s io . d, and coning when their expec- lai e ,`9 e st e° ble a,,r . al e!t• Ile did not think that that was ' i s. r. i,e ‘ ' .r t . ;lll,l 1,4 l '. e n , lon ; and he confessed he did not ; 14 1 ,, r e . r,,,,,11it5 jec ,. „t)cit was impossible to legislate at once ' 4 lii . i i t' n • t hal 4, : Id a Prear to him, that if heti Majestv'e t heir pew_i, !ceetleci at once to obtain the best assi;t- I ")10 considering what improvements of legis- -~.~--- THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENIN(3I, FEI3R(TARY 16, 1844. lation were necessary on that subject, having at their cone mind the first legal assistance in England and Ireland, awl also the advice of persons best acquainted with the real affairs in both countrses—lie could not but believe, that with such it would nit have been altogether impossible that a measure for effecting such an improvement as legislation could effect might have been ready at the time when Parliament again met. He said that was an opinion which he could net help feeling somewhat inclined to entertain. At the same time, he was far from venturing to condemn the issuing of that commission ; it was possible that the difficulties of the subject might be greater than he though and that this s'ep might have a necessity. He thought it was an unfortunate necessity; bet, still, he admitted that such a necessity might have existed But the conclusion be drew from it was this —that if all they could do towards reme dying the physical di-tress of the Irish people, was to afford them the distant prospect of improvement held out to them by this much talked of commission, he thought it far more necessary that they should pro vide other measures, which he believed were more indispen sable. It appeared to him that the more they considered the actual state of Ireland, the more ground there was for coming to the conclusion. that they could no , efface discontent from that country by the mere removal of its physical distress. No doubt great poverty affected the masses ; no doubt the struggle which existed there to obtain the means of even the most miser able existence, entered deeply into the causes of their discon tent. But he was persuaded that this bitterness was greatly increased, and never could have risen to the point at which it had then arrived, if there had not raiikied in the minds of the people a constant sense of injury and wrong: Hence, even if her Majesty's Government had been prepared to deal with the physical evils of Ireland in a much larger and more comprehensive manner than they were prepared to .do— had they been prepared to submit at once a law in relation to landlord and tenant—had they been prepared to propose the setting on foot a plan for public works, on an extensive scale, were they prepared with a well considered system of colonisa tion, even were they prepared with all these measures, still he should have said that even these would not have produced the effect desired, they would not have their influence unless ac companied by other measures calculated to remove from the minds of the people of Ireland the galling sense of injury and injustice, more especially with 'reference to the partial treatment of the religion to which they belonged. Unless they were prepared to do something in this respect, every other measure they could adopt would be unavailing. Was it possible the Irsh people could fail to feel most bitterly the pressure of the manner in which they had dealt with the religion to which the great burly of the people belonged ? Was it possible that the partial treatment of that ancient faith, to which the bulk of the people clung with sech attachment— ( Hear)—when compared with the treatment given to all other faiths, should not create in their minds a constant rankling, and sense of injestice, which, while it existed, they could never hope to wits their affections? The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that, since Roman Catholic Emancipation was carried, the principle of religious equality had been fully en forced in Ireland. He (Lord Howick) was at a loss to understand the grounds upon which he maintained that argument. What were the simple facts of the case? The Roman Catholic Church was the ancient Church of Ireland. Some three centuries ago, or rather more, the endowments were, by their act, transferred from it to the Protestant Church—the Protestants being a small minority of the popula tion—the great body of the people still adhering to their ancient faith. Further, the great body of the people, from whom they wrested their endowments for their religious wants, was the poorest population in Europe, while those to whom they assigned the Church revenues were the wealthier classes. Nor was this all. They added insult to injury. Even to the Pres byterians, who were, by the letter of the law in Ireland, as much Dissenters as the Roman Catholics, they gave a share of the bounty of the State. The only part of the popula tion they left unprovided with the means of religious instruction was the great bulk of the people—that class which stand most in need of pecuniary assistance. Now he would ask them was that just? Did they think that Ireland could be reconciled to the continuance of that state of things, by such arguments as they were in the habit of hearing in that House, and which they had heard that night from the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Shaw)? Let them recollect that it was in vain for them to reason ever so closely in their own minds, unless they could persuade the Irish people to agree with them. They might reason as closely as the best logicians that ever came from their univer sities. Their premises might be unshaken, and their chain of reasoning unbroken—all that might be the case, yet if they failed to convince the minds of the Irish people they were as far from their object as ever. What they had to consider was not whether their arguments were good, but whether they would weigh with the Irish people. He knew full well that he was wearying the House, but he could not avoid entering into one or two of those arguments which had been brought forward. One of the first respecting the Church Establish ment, which had been advanced by the Right Honourable Gentleman, rested upon the Act of Union, and he found great fault with his ( Lord Howick's) friend for saying that the fifth article of the Act of Union ought to be expunged.—( Hear, hear.) What was the ground of the Right Hon. Gentleman's objection to that? Why, that the Parliament of Ireland. which agreed to that provision, was exclusively and purely Protestant, and that they never would have agreed to the union else. They might have been purely Protestant, but they were certainly pure in no other sense.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Wilat was called the Irish Parliament was the most notoriously corrupt assembly that had ever met, and could have no pretence to have ever re presented the opinions of the Irish people. It had been said— and he believed the Right Hon. Gentleman would say so him -elf—that as a representation of the Irish people i' was the veriest farce and delusion that had ever been acted ; and to say that that Parliament, because it was purely Protestare, was at liberty to tie the great English and Irish nations to all per petuity—( Hear, hear)—and combine in making one thing for ever binding in their consciences, was to maintain a system which shook every principle of natural justice. When the Right Hon. Gentleman said that the union was a ground for maintaining the Church Establishment, he only furnished an argument to the Hon, and Learned Member fur Cork in favour of the repeal of the union ; but as an argument to reconcile the Irish people to that Church Establishment, he must indeed have the simplicity of a child to have for a moment believed it. One of the chief ornaments of the Established Church said that the only ground upon which an Established Church could be maintained, was on that of conferring benefit on the great body of the people.—( Hear.) Some of the ablest and best defenders of our Church admitted that it should be maintained only so far as it promoted the spiritual welfare of the great body of the people ; that it should be supported for the advantage of the greater number. When the anomalous position of the Irish people was mentioned to the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secre tary of State for the Home department, how did he answer ? • Oh, yes," said he, " but the great majority of the people of Great Britain and Ireland belong to the Established Church and by the Act of Union it is the United Chin ch of England and Ireland." That was the most satisfactory explanation the Right Hon. Baronet gave—but did he think that the people of Ireland would not see through this shallow sophistry ?—( Hear, hear.) Did lie remember how much that argument prevailed when they attempted to force Episcopacy on Scotland?—( Hear, hear,) Why, ii he were not very much mistaken, he heard the Right Hon. Gentleman himself say, some years ago, in one of those highly wrought and beautifully expressed passages of which he was so much a master, the chief title of the people of Scotland to the admiration of the world, was the manner in which they resisted Episcopacy in Scotland.—( Hear, hear. ) He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had told them some thing of the Scotch people having trusted to their good clay mores.—( Hear, hear.) The memory of the Irish was not less quick or retensive than his, and they would naturally nay, what was good for Scotland must be good for Ireland. —( Hear, hear. ) The present condition of the Irish Church was the best argument for Repeal, and was contrary to every principle of natural justice. It was sacrificing the interests of the great majority of the people to a mere fraction of the people. ( Hear, hear.) They mistook the interests of the feeling that existed in Ireland, and underrated the strength of their resent ment. He firmly believed that the Irish people might have been induced to submit to the Established Church had not the safety of that Church been made the pretext for maintaining cruel abuses. —( Hear, hear.) The Established Church had been made the pretext for maintaining the penal laws, which were a disgrace to civilization and the blackest stain on the pages of English history.—( Hear, hear.) They should not forget that year after year Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite came down to that House, and when equality of civil rights was demanded for the Catholics of Ireland they resisted them, alleging that the Established Church would be shaken to its foundation.—( Hear, hear.) Oh, how short-sighted was the Right Hon. Baronet when he used such a pretext as that.— ( Hear, hear.) Did he not recollect that they would fill the people of Ireland with detestation of that Church? After Catholic Emancipation had been granted was not that Church .till put forward in the most offensive manner as the opponent of the liberties and privileges of the Irish people. For the sake of that same Church they had, even within the last few years, refused justice on the matter of the franchise, and on the re eulation of municipalities—they would not equalise them with those of England for fear of the Church Establishment being endangered.—( Hear, hear.) Those things, he repeated, had sunk deeply into the hearts of the Irish people. Did they think that three centuries of oppression, for the purpose of strengthening the bulwarks and outworks of that Church, had not produced its necessary effects en the minds of the Irish people? Let us put ourselves in the position of the Irish people, and suppose that they were the stronger country, utd that they wonted to for their Church upon us, would we 'tot resist them? Yes; and the Right Hon. Baronet would be the first to offer that resistance, and resist it too with the clay more. Could the Right Hon. Beronet put his hand on his heart, and say he would submit to such an imposition lie iently.—(Hear, hear.) For his (Lord Howick's) part, he aise that he would not submit to sueb an injustice—he would not tamely bow to the yoke. Now, if they would net submit to a Roman Catholic Church Establishment, they being Protestants, how could they expect that the Irish people would endure it ? —(Hear, hear ) The Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin, in adverting to the subject, said he had taken his stand upon the great ground of religious truth. —(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Shaw.) Now, if there was any one thing more calculated than another to aggravate the Irish people, it was such a declaration. That was as much as to say the Roman Catholics were wrong, and we were right. —(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Shaw.) Yes, yes (conti nued the Noble Lord), of course the Hon. and Learned Member thinks so ; and so did he (Lord Howick) firmly be lieve ; but what he complained of was legislating upon that opinion.— (Hear.) Catholics had been admitted to an equality of civil rights. And the Legislature should not tell them by their legislation that their creed was false and idolatrous, which in effect the Hon. and Learned Member for the Uni versity of Dublin had done.—( Hear, hear.) Roman Catholics were as conscientious in their religious belief as Protestants, and the Legislature should not either insinuate their disbelief at that conviction er scoff at that religion, by proclaiming one creed as " the ground of religious truth," and treating all who dissented from it as if they were unworthy of consideration.— ( Hear, hear.) What right could he have to assume the privilege of judging upon the respective merits of the Roman Catholic and the Protestant religions? Did he not remember that more than half the Christian world adhered to that faith, that it had sent its missionaries to the most remote parts of the world, who by their exertions promoted the good of their fellow men and the glory of God, and who, by their sufferings and the privations they endured, gave ample proof of their sin cerity ?—( Hsar, hear, and cheers.) He asserted that they should now do full and ample justice to the people of Ireland, and that at the earliest possible period. If they had granted Catholic Emancipation at an earlier period, and had shown after it a sense of confidence in the Irish people—if some years ago they had consented to the Appropriation clause—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—such a formidable systematic agitation would not. now pervade that country. He warned that House before, that by the withdrawal of this clause from the Irish Church Bill they left behind them a much larger demand, and one which would come seeedily upon them. If they had only consented to some compromise at that time the Roman Ca:. tholics would at once have agreed to it:; but they refused, and, he regretted to say, were supported by the prejudices of the people of England. As they had then yielded nothing to the people of Ireland, so now that people would yield nothing to them, and perfect and e pal justice must be ceded to Ireland. He knew that in certain quarters he was likely to meet with little sympathy, but still he thought it to be his duty to tell the whole truth, and he again asserted that the time was now come when they should render full and impartial justices to Ireland, and there were many modes in which this might be done. In the first place, in England the Protestants formed the majority amongst the different religious persnesiens, and there the Pro• testant religion was by law established ; in Scotland the ma ajority belonged to the Presbyterian, and there that was the Est- Were they not aware that the machinery of a free Govern ment was fur the express purpose of giving force and effect to the deliberate and express will of the great body of the people. Trial by jury, the elective franchise, and the whole machinery of a free Government were constructed for no other purpose, and when they attempted to administer the forms of freedom against the will of the people, it was a task which never could be satisfactorily performed. It was then that the institutions of the jury failed them, and the elective franchise became a serious evil. Questions arose in every turn, in every social relation. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Shaw) complained of the Irish landlords having been treated with injustice. Still he (Lord Howick) thought the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could not deny that in Ire land many of the owners of land were unjust _and oppressive. The landlord was oppressive to his tenant; and all those struggles might be traced to the subject of the Church, which ran through every portion of society. Whatever improvement they introduced, still if they left this question open, they would not get rid of the irritation. He came back then to this, they must be prepared to do justice to the Irish people in this matter of the Church Establishment, or they would see no ter mination to the existing state of that country. The fit would continue, and the chronic disease would eat into the very vitals of the country. There was no possible alternative or middle course in the principle of government upon which they could act. They could only rule through the affections of the people. They could not hope to maintain the affections of the people unless they really did justice to them ; and without the affec tions of the people there was but one alternative in governing the country, and that was by force. If, indeed, it was in their power to put an end to the forms of freedom—if they abo lished trial by jury—if they abolished the elective franchise —if they could govern Ireland as a great Crown colony by an order in Council, then he could conceive it possible that this system could go en. They must abolish the free press—prevent discussion of all kinds. if they could do this—if it were in their power to establish such a system as that adopted by Austria in the Italian provinces, it was possible, perhaps, for them to return to a state of quiet. They might, by such a system, drive the people into a state of apathy ; but he thanked God that it was not in their power to adopt that principle. They could not abolish the forms of freedom in Ireland, and, therefore, having those forms of freedom existing, they must govern in a spirit of freedom, or the present excited state of societe must continue ; and he could assure them , that if they did allow it so to continue, they must be prepared for worse results. The present system was dreadful, arid was corrupt - mg ie,rythiiig that was good in itself. Even an ex tension of education would only make the Irish people more sensible of the injustice under which they laboured. Even if an improvement were to take place as to,the wealth and resources of the country, he believed that under the p resent system, it would have no other effect than to make the present struggle a permanent one, to which there could be no end. It would not terminate even if that lamentable catastro phe were to occur, the hope of which he feared there were men guilty enough to entertain, if the ex existing discontent were to break out into open rebellion, and if the flames of resistance were to be crushed. He believed that even if than awful calamity were to come upon us, when the resistance was over, and tranquillity restored, they would be in precisely the same condition a 3 before. Nay it would be worse than before, for all hope of reconciliation with the Irish people would then be at an end. There would then be no possible termination to the struggle, except, perhaps, by that which under such circumstances would be inevitable—not the repeal of the legislative union, but the entire severance of the two kingdoms. Such a fatal result could alone terminate so disastrous a struggle. God grant that they might not, in their party divisions and party distrac tions, continue until it was too late for them to apply a remedy. Before he concluded, having thus stated his views upon this momentous question—before he concluded, he had a few words to say upon the terms of the motion then before the House. His Noble Friend opposite, the Secretary for Ireland, last alight said that this vote for a Committee was not with a view to inquiry, but for the purpose of casting a censure upon the Government, to be immediately followed, if successful, by their resignation. It was perfectly true that, by his vote, he meant to imply such an understanding of the meaning of his Noble Friend. He thought it was absolutely necessary that Parliament should proceed without delay to adopt measures of a far more comprehensive kind, and of a far different charac ter, from those promised by her Majesty's Government. This was what he felt was implied by the vote, and he believed that it was a parliamentary and constitutional method of ask ing the House of Commons to express its opinion. He admitted also that the House could not express that opinion without in a certain degree implying censure upon her Ma jesty's Government, and he admitted that, in the ordinary course of affairs, the adoption of such a vote by that house would naturally he followed by their resignation. At the same time, his did most solemnly assure the House that he did not support that motion because he wished to achieve any party triumph, or because he desired that her Majesty's Government should be dismissed from power. That was not his object.—(Cries, of " Oh, oh," and cheers from the Opposition benches.) but believing measures to be absolutely necessary, even whether they remained in power or not, he must ask the House to sup port the motion. He looked upon this question as one which, like the Catholic question, could never be carried by a mere party triumph. He believed that the settlement of this question could only be accomplished, as the Catholic question had been accomplished, by the union of the two great parties which divided that House and this country —to sacrifice pre-conceived opinions and mutual hostilities, and to combine in doing that which was necessary for the welfare of Ireland and the safety of the empire. He was per suaded that this was the only mode by which those measures could be carried—in fact, it was only the Catholic question over again, in another shape. Precisely the same difficulties and dangers which they hail then to struggle with had now arisen for them to encounter. He hoped the Government would seriously consider how great was the responsibility which was now placed upon them.—(Hear, hear.) He knew that they on this side of the House could not carry this question against their will. Had his object been to overturn the Government, he felt that the House would understand that he would not have expressed in so earnest a manlier the opinion he had that night avowed. He was not ignorant of the great mass of prejudice—of honest prejudice no doubt, that would be arrayed against him for doing so. He wished to compromise no man by what he had said, but he was persuaded that what he had said was the truth, and if they calmly reflected upon it they would feel it to be so—that in this conjuncture—this awful conjuncture of the fate of the British empire, it was their most solemn dury to their God and their eeuntry, so consider how the present state of Ireland could be terminated by other means than tho4e that he Lad pointed out, and it they had no other means to suggest, which had a rational prospect of success, not to reject that offered to them. Having said this, it only remained for him to apologise sin cerely to the House for the time he had taken up, and to express his deep regret at his utter inability to give utterance to the half of what he felt upon such a subject as this. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but the House did not divide. On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, we found Sir R. PEEL addressing the House. He said—For the Noble Lord who last session said that he was not prepared to endanger the Protestant Establishment in Ireland—( Cheers) —and who, in the course of the present session, said that the nearest approach that could be made to the satisfaction of the Catholics, would be to double the grant to Maynooth— (Cheers)—and who now proposed to have three sepa rate establishments in that country—a Protestant, a Presbyterian, and a Roman Catholic—for him now to taunt Gentlemen on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, with not answering the speech of the Noble Lord who had last sat down was to say the least of it indiscreet, if not uncharitable.—(Cheers. ) For his part, he ( Sir R. Peel), seeing that a large portion of the House was unwilling that the debate should be closed in the present stage, would vote for the adjournment.—(Cheers.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL only rose to say that he did not agree in the reply of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Laughter.) Mr. MILNES said that although many Members on that side of the House did not think it would become their position in it, to obtrude themselves at that hour of the night, yet it by no means followed that they did not wish to speak before the debate concluded.—( A laugh.) Sir GEORGE GREY did not rise to oppose the mo tion for adjournment. But as he had voted so frequently with the present Government against re peated adjournments of one debate, he must say that it was with surprise he witnessed the silence of the opposite side, when his Noble Friend concluded.—( Hear, hear. ) As it was known that the debate could not arrive at its legitimate conclu sion until after the First Lord of the Treasury should have spoken upon it, no gentleman on that (the opposite) side could be expected to rise after his Noble Friend.— ( Hear, hear ) He wished it, therefore, to be understood that the adjournment was not at the wish of that side.—(Oh, oh. ) The SPEICER then put the question, and the debate was adjourned without a division ; and, there being no further busi ness, the House adjourned shortly after, at Ten Minutea to Twelve o'Clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 15. Their Lordships met at Fivo o'Clock. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from Chi chester against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. THE CATHOLIC OATH. Lord STOMITON withdrew *he motion, of which he had given notice, for bringing under the consideratien of their ordships the construction of the Roman Catholic Oath. Wished Church; and as the Roman Catholic religion was the LORI) DETNDON ALD'S INVENTIONS. faith of the majority of the people of Ireland, so also he Lord BROUGHAM postponed the motion, of which he had thought that three centuries ought not to have been allowed given notice, respecting the petition presented by Lord Dun to pass away without the endowment of that Church in that donald. country. He thought. that they ought in this case, for the Lord MINTO took that opportunity of bearing testimony peace of Ireland, to make a provision for the spiritual wants of ea the value of one of the. inventions of the Noble Lord—an all classes of the population of the kingdom, according to their improvement in the application of steam machinery to vessels number. He knew all those subjects were open to much ob- I )f war. It had been subjected to a trial of four or five years, jection, and environed with many difficulties—( Hear, hear)— and the experiment had been highly satisfactory, both as to but still he felt convinced that some such course of legislation its operation and durability. must be adopted in order to insure peace and tranquillity in POOR•LAW UNIONS. Ireland ,and win the affections of a gallant and generous na- The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that he should tion. The House should remember, that out of eight tomorrow move for a Select Committee to consider the expe millions and a half inure than six millions were diency of making some provision for religious worship and Roman Catholics ( Hear, hear) and should grant spiritual instruction in the poor-law union houses • both in to them the sante right as those which they were willing to ac- England and Wales. TURNIPIRE TRUSTS . cord to persons of any other religious persuasion. He knew that Catholics a n d Protestants differed on doctrinal points, but still i The Duke of WELLINGTON gave noti c e o f the inten 'he knew it was the fundamental principle of all Christian sects lion of the Government te, i n t ro d uce a Bill, in the eoursa of to "do unto others as you would be done by," and all he asked the present session, on the subject of Turnpike Trusts. All the from her Majesty' s G overnmen t was, act upon this text.— Reports on the subject not laving been received, the Bill could ( Loud che ers .) He k new th e y h a d m a ny difficulties to contend not be introduced immediatel y. with, and that they h a d t o b a ttl e aga i n st the long-cherished STATE OF IRELAND,—ADJOURNED DEBATE. prejudice s o f th e p eo pl e o f t hi s coun t r y ; b u t s till the peace of On the motion for resumin g - the adj ourne d d e b ate , Ireland imperatively demanded that those difficulties should be Earl FORTESCUE rose, and said that he understood a boldly met. The Right Hon. Baronet had acknowledged that statement had been made in another place which affected the cause of all their differences was the question of the Este- him personally, and also the character of the Go blishied Church. He ( Lord Howick ) certainly agreed with v:rnment, at whose bead he was in Ireland. A him, that it was at the bottom of all their differences.—( Hear, person high in office had stated that, within three hear. and cheers. ) Was not the House aware that until this months before the late Government went out of office, seven questitin was settled they could never rely upon the Roman s tipendiary magistrates had bean appointed in addition to the Catholics of liel .nd? for they be ;continually existing establishment of stipendiary magistrates in Ireland. seoking to overthrow this system, and ne power could ever Before he proceeded further, he begged to inform their Lord induce them to submit to the pi esent state of that Church. ships that he alone was responsible far those appointments. Upon this subject the whole Roman Catholic b o dy were un it e d, The G ov ernment with which he had been connected had no and had no trust in that Government, nor, indeed, could the thing to do with them. On reference to the official documents, Government rely upon th em . This unfortunate question met he found it was perfectly correct that seven new a pp o i n t men t s them in every instance—it was even connected with the jury- were made between the loth of June and the 28th of August, box.—(C, ies o f " Hea r , h ear ," an d l ou d c h eers .) Th e l a te in- IS.V. It was not, however, true that those appointments dictment which had been j us t t r i e d i n I re l an d cou ld not be said were made in addition to the existing num b er o f s ti pen di ary to be so much preferred against Mr. O'Connell as against the magistrates. Daring the time he had mentioned three Irish people.—(Loud cheers.) That eminent statesman, Mr. vacancies occurred, and those vacancies were filled up. That Burke, in his speech upon the American question, which had lee four out of the seven. Of those four, one was appointed been so f r e quen tly quoted, said it would net do to apply th e usua l I i n th e c ity o f Armagh, at the earnest request of Lord Gneford, narrow and pedantic rules of criminal jurisdiction, and that he in consequence of a dreadful murder that was committed in the knew not how to bring an indictment against a whole p e ople. ne i g hb our hood. Another was sent to Tralee, in consequence of But her M a j es ty's Government were more clever than Mr. Burke, di s p u tes con tinually occurring, which terminated in riotsamongst for they had solved this truly difficult problem. He should the fishermen in the neighbourhood. Another was appointed remind his Hon. an I Learned Friend that it was a fundamental to a wild coast district in Donegal, in consequence of principle in the administration of justice to have an inn- disturbances having taken place between the people and partial jury. if a foreigner was to be tried he would have the revenue police. He did not exactly recollect why the right to claim that one-half of the jury should be foreigners, the o th er was appointed, but he knew that the appoint and was there less reason for imputing • prejudice to the jury ment was made under equally urgent circumstances. upon those tri&s than there was to doubt the impartiality of a As these were the facts of the case, he trusted that this would London jury in the ease of a foreigner. Mr. O'Connell and b e a sufficient answer to the statement made in another place. his friends knew that there was a still stronger feeling against He wou ld n ow turn to the immediate subject under discussion. them, yet they could not avail themselves of the privilege to He could not agree with those who said that this motion of his which every foreigner was entitled. He felt convinced that Noble Friend was ill-timed. No one could doubt its if the Church questioM were settled there would be an end of importance—and its importance, he conceived, was a that combination which at present existed in Ireland, and per- sufficient justification for its full and immediate consideration. haps the Right lion. Baronet would find numbers amongst He stated that much of the excitement of the people arose from the Catholic population of Ireland who would be as staunch the attempts made to restrict the franchise. But for those supporters of his sliding-scale, and of the principle of agricul. attempts, the se g reat meeti ngs would not, in all probability, tural protection as he would for Church Reform—(Laughter) have been held. lie cited the large amount of the repeal rent, —but while it was left unsettled it would absorb all others• during the last year, compared with former years, as a proof • of the great discontent of the people. He felt bound to render a due meed of praise to Mr. O'Connell fur the manly stand which he made against the propagation of the doctrines which were endeavoured to be spread through out Ireland by the Chartists. During the time when he (Earl Fortescue) was Lord-Lieutenant, the amount of the repeal rent was scarcely more than 2001. for each week, but during the administration of the present Government, it had risen to nearly 2,000/. Mr. O'Connell had refused to accept the highest situation which had been offered to him, but in the instance of his son's appointment, he (Earl Fortescue) would say that Mr. O'Connell never made the slightest application. On the subject of the Irish Church he thought that there could be but one opinion. After some further observations, which were quite inaudible, the Noble Lord concluded, as we understood him, by a wish that the present discussions might tend to the benefit and welfare of Ireland. As he sat down, some Noble Lord moved that the House proceed to the Order of the Day.—(Laughter. ) Lord HADDINGTON said the Noble Lord complained of a statement that had been made elsewhere, of the dismissal of the stipendiary magistrates in Ireland. It had been stated that the Government removed ten of them, and it was in order to defend the Government from that charge that the statement was made. The number of stipendiary magistrates in the early part of 1841 was 59, and between June and the 28th of August, that being the day on which the Noble Viscount opposite (Lord Melbourne) left office, seven additional magistrates were appointed. As soon as the present Government came into office, those seven were removed, reducing the number again to fifty-nine, that being the number for which the House of Commons had given a vote. At present there were sixty, being one more stipendiary magistrate than in 1839, 1840, and up to the 15th June, 1841. He did not think therefore that her :Majesty's present Govern ment were liable to the imputations which had been at tempted to be cast upon them of setting aside stipendiary ma gistrates for party purposes. Since the time when the present Government came into office four vacancies had taken place, and tbose vacancies had been filled up by the appointment of four of those gentlemen who had been appointed by the late Government. He had nothing pvtieular to say against the motion at present before their Lordships, he could not, how ever, say so much for the speech of his Noble Friend who in troduced the motion. It was filled with invective and recrimi nation. He would wish to know for what they were to quarrel ? Why, one was tie subject of the Catholic Clergy. But this was an old subject which had been mooted long since. What he thought still was, that the Noble Marquis might have selected a more opportune time for bringing this matter before the consideration of their Lordships and the public. This alleged grievance had been brought before Parliament in the year 180.5, on which occasion he (the Earl of Haddington) voted along with the Whigs • for against the Whi gs h e h a d no animus when they brought forward measures such as he might conincide in. His Noble Friend beside him, (the Duke of Wellington) had wisely omitted to annex conditions to the Catholic Emancipation Act. The Marquis of NORMANBY—Does the Noble Lord for get the abolition of the franchise of the forty-shilling free holders ? The Earl of HADDINGTON—The Noble Lord was right. He did think that the introduction of any proprosition for the payment of Roman Catholic clergy would be most impo litic at the present time, inasmuch as it would not be acccepted by that body. Many propositions had been made with respect to the Established Church in Ireland, by Noble Lords oppo site, but he (the Earl of Haddington) thought the question was, whether they would recognise the Church on the volun tary principle in that country, or whether the whole Church Establishment should be abolished. He thought the proposi tion of the Noble Marquis was a perfect chimera, as the Noble Lord the President of the Council had shown to the satisfaction of their Lordships. According to the Act of Union, the Church as by law established was part and parcel of the law of the land. His Noble Friend had announced that it was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to sanc tion in the slightest degree any measure which could degrade or destroy the Protestant Church in Ireland ; but, at the same time, he (the Earl of Haddington) thought such a determina tion was quite consist en t w i t h the adoption of a course of legis lation rights to the Roman r which own would purposes, excited Catholic s . If t h e ag i tators o f I re l an d, f"n m th ea e su p r a e ss o i f on e s ivi o l fanthderepelignipolues, under pretence of obtaining their rights, it was for them to prove that there was ample room to conciliate that people by the adoption of liberal measures.—( H ear t ) fhe defects in the registration system could not be imputed to the Government, since they had announced their intention of bringing in a Bill to remedy the evils which had arisen from an interpretation of the Act which had the effect of diminish ing the number of Irish voters. He denied the imputation that justice was not fairly a dministered. He defended the ju dicial appointments of the Government. Were men to be ;ex eluded from the bench, because, at some time in their lives, they had made speeches distasteful to the Catholic Hier archy ? That charge came with a very h a d grace from the Noble Marquis, who, unless he was belied, offered the situation of Master of the Rolls to Mr. O'Con nell.—(" Hear, hear," from the Marquis of Normanby.) As to the monster meetings, it was said that the most manly course would have been to have prevented them at first. He said that the Government thought they would wear themselves out ; the Government was not so foolish as to imagine any such thing. The Government did not prevent the first meet ings ; but they took a course by which the people—who saw what passed in Parliament through the papers—were warned of the consequences of attending such meetings. As to the dismissal of the magistrates for attending repeal meetings, the Government was perfe c tly j ust i fied in doing it. No man who attended such a meeting could be depended on for putting down excesses that might ari se f rom excitement on other occasions. With regard to the Clontarf meeting, he contended that the proclamation again s t it was issued quite in sufficient time. That meeting was called together by a sort of milita r y procla mation, which rende re d it absolutely n ec essary for the Govern ment to interfere. He admitted that Mr. O'Connell did use every effort to preserve the peace, and not the slightest disorder occurred. But the alarming part of the subject was this— that one man should have such influence as that when he said peace there was peace ; what might Thehe_oble sequence if it suited hi m t o say war ? N Marquis opposite (the Ma rqu i s o f Cl anr iearde) complained ' of the manner io whi c h th e p er sons in Ireland had been brought to justice. H e complained of their being been arraigned for conspiracy, and said they ought to have tried for sedition. The N o ble Lord also said that great risk of blood was incurred by the Government in the mannern which they had proclaimed the Clontarf meeting. Their.. i Lordships wt,uld recollect that Clontarf was near to Dublin , where a large military force was stationed. But suppose they had proclaimed Alullaghrnast, Tara, or Clifdeu meetings. There would then have been risk of bloodshed indeed, inas much as the military force stationed at those places was ex tremely small, as compared with the vast numbers attending the meeting. Suppose those meetings had been proclaimed, and the people attending those meetings had refused to obey the proclamation, what would have been said then by Noble Lords opposite ? Would it not have been said that Peterloo had been revived, and that the meetings had been put down which were being held for a perfectly legal purpose ? The Government had not prosecuted the traversers in Ireland be cause the object they had in view was unlawful, but because their means for attaining that object were illegal. The means they adopted were intimidation —intimidation of Parliament and the Government. He (Lord Haddington) therefore trusted that the Government stood vindicated before their Lordships, as he was sure they stood vindicated before the people of England, for what they had done. They had done all they could to maintain the peace and tranquillity of Ireland. They had s ucceeded—succeeded, too, by means of the ordinary and unaided law of the land. —(Choers. ) It had been said in another place that his Noble Friend on the Woolsack had been appointed to his office on account of his hostility to Ireland. He (Lord Haddington) must say, that he had- never read any accusation with more indignation in the whole course of his life.—(l l tar, hear.) The attack upon his Noble and Learned Friend was a most foul calumny. —(Hear, hear.) No one who knew his Noble and Learned Friend could ever accuse him of being the enemy of, cr hostile to, any human creature. He had never known a man less liable to such a gross imputation, or who had more generosity in his nature. Ho (Lord Haddington) begged pardon for thus speaking in the presence of his Noble and Learned Friend, but he had a right to feel that this was not only an imputation upon the motives of Sir Robert Peel, but upon the whole Government.—( Cheers.) H e thought that the person who said that her Majesty's Ministers had appointed her Lord High Chancellor to his situation on account of his hostility to the people of Ireland, was not, by such a course, doing that which was likely to allay the e xcitement at present existing. —( Hear, hear.) They were not accustomed to hear imputa tations of this kind, and he was sure they must all have heard of it with deep regret. lie was quite certain that it ought to be regretted by him who made it, for la nguage of this ki n d was little likely t o h ea l the wounds of Ireland. In conclusion, he begged to say that nothing would be left undone by her Ma jesty's Government to tranquillise and conciliate the people of Ireland The Marquis of CLANRICARDE explained. When he said the parties who had lately been tried in Ireland ought to have been tried for sedition, he did not say that seditious lan guage had been used, but that it was stated that seditious lan guage had been usedat the meetings held in Ireland last year. The parties using such language, if they Fad used such lan guage, ought to have been pros ecuted at the ti me. Earl FORTESCUE explained. Lord MONTEAGLE then rose to address the House. The question of stipendiary magistrates formed but a small Tart of the question. At the same time he felt that his Noble Friend, the late Lord-Lieutenant, had increased the confidence of Ire land by the course that he had pursued, and in that course he was fully vindicated. For himself, he was mast anxious to render every justice to the terms of the motion that had been proposed by the Noble Marquis, but, in doing so, he was most anxious to see that justice was done on each side. Could it be said that Ireland was in the same state that it for merly had been ?—( Hear, hear.) Certainly not. It had hi therto, under the late Administration, been in a state of per fect tranquillity and peace. What was its condition now ? Far, far, different.—( Heir, hear.) He concurred with the mea sures that had been adopted cn the part of the Governmtint,_ ( Hear, hear.) Ile complained not of the forces that had been employed in Ireland ; but while he did so he was compelled to state that by the proceedings that had been taken, some, if not a little injary, had been effected in Ireland The Government had taken a great step, but if they were disposed to act upon the terms of coucitiation, they, in his opinion, ought to have adopted a different course. Had they by the principles which they had pursued succeeded in govern ing Ireland effectually, or in keeping her pet)* quiet? Cer tainly not.—( Hear, hear.) And what was the inference to be drawn ? Why, that the Government—the present existing Go vernment—had nut the confidence of the rich people; they had not the confidence of the Irish Catholics. it might be true that they wished to govern Ireland on the principles of justice, but to do so they must adopt a very different course to that which they had pursued.—( Hear, hear.) The fact was, that the present .Ministers had not the confidence of the people of Ireland, and the evidence of the last ten years had proved that assertion. What had been done with respect to the Muni cipal Bill? Had not the proceedings upon that measure given the greatest dissatisfaction to the peopl e o f I re l an d ? W as not thatdissatisfac' ion one that ought to haws been expressed? By that Bill they had given to England, and to Scotland, certain civil rights, but they had considered that Ireland was unworthy of such a concession.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, they had given to Ireland what he must call a bar to civil rights, and in the renewal of certain laws they had forgotten Ireland altogether. Then, with respe..t to education, what had been the course that had been pursued towards Ireland ? One that he must confess was of little credit to the Government. He did not wish to undervalue the votes that have been given by Hon. Members, in the other House of Parliament, but he thought, notwith standing all they had attempted to do, they had proved them selves greatly backward in the cause of the education of the people of Ireland. Then, with respect to the proseeutions that had taken place in Ireland, was it to be said, for one moment, that these prosecutions were conducted in a manner becoming i ga g n n r e — a t t I G , e o p v r e i r e n s Gm ehnat in l a n g t r l e m a t t r me o a s s e n c r u e t i b o e n e been h e el C d a u ti p 'o t l s c icr o e r l —their principles had been attacked, and the political franc chise and the rights of the people had been considered as no thing.—( Hear.) Much had been said against Mr. O'Con nell—much had been also asserted about the offers of prefer ment that had been made to him by the late Government. It was true that they had offered him the Mastership of the Rolls. He (Lord Monteagle) regretted sincerely that that offer had not been accepted by Mr. O'Connell. In discussing this question, he should wish it to be understood distinctly that he was not in the most remote manner defending the agitation in that country. It had been his lot, during the administration of Earl de Grey, to meet Mr. O'Connell face to face and answer him upon the subject of the repeal of the legisla tive union, and upon that occasion he did not shrink from the inquiry, nor would he do so now ; but still at the same time he thought it would be most unjust if he, availing himself of this privileges in that place as a Peer, were to attack a person who had no opportunity or power of reply. He believed it was pretty well understood that he owed but little gratitude to Mr. O'Connell—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—but still that should not in the slightest degree influence him, and his only motive in stating what he had just now done, was to show that he was actuated by no private bias. Upon the occasion of the appointment of three gentlemen of the highest honour and character—namely, Mr. Sheil, Mr. Wyse, and Mr. More O'Ferrall—Mr. 111(Neil and the party with whom he was identified, made use of the most insulting observations with respect to the religious persuasion of those gentlemen. When such language was used by a great political party, it in some degree justified the violent ex pression from the other party. The great question at issue was, whether the Irish people had or had not confidence in the pre sent Government.? and if they had not, to seek out the cause. He should state that he attached no culpability to the Govern ment for the institution of the State trials ; beeau e he thought that when a great body of persons openly avowed their inten tion by particular means, whether legal or other, to effect a political purpose, and in carrying that out assumed a system of military organisation, it was the bo un d en d u ty o f th e G overn• ment to int er f ere . With respect to the proclamation which had been issued before the Clontarf meeting, he should say the assertion that the Government had kept this proclamation back for any sinister motive, or for the purpose of putting down the meeting by force, was erroneous; but still he thought it very unfortunate that a proclamation to put down a meeting appointed for Sunday had been only issued at three o'clock on the Saturday, the more particularly as the people were coming from various and distant parts of the country. Lord de Grey only arrived in Iroleind on Friday, and the proclamation wad issued on Saturday. He (Lords Mont eagle) thought this was a lack of decision on the part of the members composing her Majesty's Government, and he would ask was this the manner in which such a measure should have been adopted ? Why, he should ask, had not the Government, through the medium of some of its organs aruongst the press, caused an intimation to be given to the people of the intention to suppress this meeting at an earlier period—in fact at the moment it was first determined upon ? Again, he thought it most unfortunate for the Government, that the sheet of the jury list, which had been so frequently referred to, and caused so much excitement, had been lost. He thought it was most essential for the interests and peace of Ireland, that there should be an amalgamation of all parties in that country. With respect to the Landlord and Tenant Commission, he was fully aware of the many difficulties by which it was surrounded; but he was, at the same time, convinced that the Commis sioners was bound to turn their attention to the social condition of the people of Ireland ; and he thought that no subject was of more importance than that of affording instruction to the people in agricultural science, in asmuch as a highly industrious class of persons were unable to make available the resources of the country. He also thought it most advisable that a State provision should be afforded to the Roman Catholic clergy; and also that the College of May neoth should be placed upon a higher footing, for by these means, and these alone,they would insure the admission of higher class persons to the ministry of that Church. The Duke of WELLINGTON then rose, but gave way to The Earl of RIPON, who said, that after the speeches made on the other side of the House, hardly any explanation was necessary of the conduct of he Government. The Noble Lord who had just sat down was evidently satisfied both with the past conduct of the Government, and with the measures they intended to propose. His (the Earl of Ripon's) Noble Friend in introducing this motion remarked, that it was not at all sur prising that the people of Ireland should not place confidence in her Majesty s Ministers. The ground upon which he made this remark was, that while there were three Scotehmen in the Cabinet, he could not discover a single Irishman with the exception of his Noble Friend near him (the Duke of Wellington) ! It was rather singular that when Lord Grey's Government was in power, the Noble Marquis did not discover that such a Government could not possess the confidence of the I r i s h p eo pl e , f or th ere was no Irishman in that Cabinet.—( Hear, hear.) The appointment of a noble relative of his (Lord Ripon) had been alluded to, as one not calculated to give satisfaction to the people of Ireland. There was one question upon which his noble relative (Lord de Grey) had ever entertained the strongest opinion, in which he had differed from his political friends, and differed from his family, and that was the Catholic question. He (Earl Ripon) said that was Prima facia proof of his Noble relative being calculated to conciliate the Irish people. His Noble Friend, in supporting the Catholic claims, had not popularity in view, for the question at that time was not a popular one in that House. No, he acted upon a principle of justice, and gave those claims his hearty support. He therefore thought that her Majesty's Government had properly chosen him as a person likely to administer the government of Ireland in an honest and fair spirit. Then with respect to his Noble Friend the Chief Secretary, it was well known what his feelings had been. There was no division of opinion between the Lord Lieutenant and the Chief Secretary. Their opinions were the AaraN a ß sitanesi rnto e i mnd l nn a gsseo t ehn i n v ret de t Relative impassiblehoeenteredwhicha(ai aldbnEe trtharjatl fdbhao ever enar Jackson bse p i to ne:h o ndeni n enrtc. nor his office cajoled w i e t i h t either by r i m y would undertake Ripon) matle that was less s e o e appointments to a vui renlO satisfaction i L e: nt e f t f o t oli y oft kh h la a i rnd d . ti h btsfni oraela o ai Ireland.teeLe n snrmnanl eedsn. said at but m ou: leatrtaftt determinationnri hh eaYnoNi uncorrupted, Therembeaoj i ment c pb:l d o uypwl ee r wto, strong political opinions. He had often expressed those opinions in Parliament. He (Earl Ripon) did not say whether those opinions were right or wrong, he disagreed with many of n e i d ,ted th , aatndMpre.rfßecatrloyninnLemfrronyptiliwasina wasand a man whose justice on the bench nobody had ever ventured to impugn. Was it to be said that because a man had entertained strong political opinions that, therefore, he ought not to be appointed to a seat on the judicial bench? What then was the objection made to Mr. Sergeant Jaakson ? Wit that he was a great o pp onent to the national education sciseme. Were they come to such a pass that a man's opinions were to be a bar to his advancement; in his profession;? Why this was nothing but proscription if each a principle were to obtain. Mr. Sergeant Jackson had, it appeared, made an excellent judge, and yet exception was taken to his appotnt ment. This exception, too, was taken by ishose who supported that party who had offered the Chief Judgeship to one who had lately been placed in an unenviableposition. Then with respect to th e e l evat i on o f M r. Holt Waring, to which se much objection had been offered. Their Lordships would re collect the time when Parliament came to strong resolutions on the subject of the Orange Societies. The moment the wishes of Parliament were expressed that those institutions should be dissolved there was not a man to be found in Ireland more earnest, or more zealous, amongst those over whom they exercised influence than Mr. Holt Waring was with those with whom he possessed any influence to induce them to abandon at once all such i ns tit u ti ons . H e _ _ (the Earl of Ripon) thought that this was guise sufficient to wipe away all recollection of his connection with such institu tions. He thought he had said sufficient for the refutation of the charge which had been brought against his noble relative of maladministration of his office. He would turn to the sub ject to which the Noble Marquis had referred at length, namely, the late trials in Ireland. He thought that with respect to this matter, the speech of his Noble Friend, who had spoken last, was a complete acquittal of the Government. He had said that the Government had done right in not acting before they had done, and in taking steps when they did. Here, then, were two of the charges against the Government got rid of. But his Noble Friend complained of the number of days that elapsed b.iween the time the Government became aware of the proclamation that issued from the Corn Exchange, with respect to the re peal cavalry, and the issuing the proclamation. His Noble Friend, to show what he considered was delay on the part of the Government, referred to the course Mr. Canning adopted respecting an expedition to Portugal. It was per fectly true, as the Noble Lord had stated, that Mr. Can ning had received intelligence on Friday, and on the Tuesday following the troops were ready to embark. The Noble Lord forgot that all these arrangements were made in London, to be acted upon in London. But the case of the present Government was different, for the determination come difference in In .odo had in the t t o be ime. ac l t t e l d upon i p mdbeenn said, Dublin, which the other the a side, that the Attorney-General for Ireland was hardly known be fore the late trials. The Marquis of NORMAN BY—I beg your pardon, that Cline horn your Noble Colleague. The Earl of RIPON—Yes, but that will not do. It was said the Attorney-General was not known out of the law-courts in Ireland. Lord CAMPBELL—Your Noble Colleague said that he had not heard of his name. The Earl of RIPON said it was not to be a reproach to the Government that they did not know all at once what were the legal qualifications of all the gentlemen of the Irish bar. The idea was absurd. Why, Mr. Whiteside, one of the counsel for the traversers, in whom the traversers must have placed the most implicit confidence, inasmuch as that gentleman was a Conservative in politics ; he, in his speech to the jury, stated that the speech of the Attorney-General was characterised by great fairness and talent. Lord CAMPBELL—That is a lawyer's Compliment. The Earl of RIPON—The Noble and Learned Lord says that is a lawyer's compliment. The LORD CHANCELLOR—Yes, they often compliment upon talent, but not upon fairness.—(Laughter. ) t The Earl of RIPON continued—A great deal had been said about the missing sheet, containing the names of special jurors. Why, the person who actually lost, or mislaid, that sheet, was a Roman Catholic.—( Hear, hear.) Yet the loss of the sheet was brought, not certainly as a direct charge against the Government, but as a matter of grave suspicion. lie had said more than he intended when he rose to address their Lordships. He was happy to find that. the measures which her Majesty's Government intended to pursue had met with the approbw ion of Noble Lords opposite. He would not pretend to say what would be the result of those measures, but at present no opposition had been expressed with respect to them, but, on the contrary, they had met with the approbation of all parties. He anticipated the most salutary results. After the Noble Earl sat down there was a pause of some minutes; there was a general expectation that either Lord Campbell, the Lord Chancellor, or Lord Brougham, would have risen, but no manifestation of such an intention was made by either of them. Lord Brougham and Lord Camp bell were both in the House; but the Lord Chan cellor was absent ; and the Earl of Shaftesbury, occupied the Woolsack. The pause still continuing, and no Noble Lord rising to peak, while the Noble mover of the re solution also remained silent, the House grew impatient, and there were loud cries of " Question" and '° Divide." At this moment a Noble Lord conveyed an intimation to the Marquis of Normanby that the Lord Chancellor did not intend to speak upon the question at all. The House still being impatient, The Earl of SHAFTESBURY put the question. The Marquis of NORMANBY then rose to reply on his motion. He said, as he had undeestood that the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack intended to address the House, as it was very natural he should wish to do, he had waited for some minutes, in order that he might have an opportunity of doing so. But he had received an intimation from a Noble Lord near him, that it was not the intention of the Noble and Learned Lord to address any observations to the House. He, therefore, now rose to make such observa tions in reply as might appear necessary, in answer to the speeches that had been made on the other side. Before he did even this, he would make one general observation with respect to some remarks that had been made on the doubtful natnre of the motion. The Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty had described the motion as so in definite that he could riot conceive but that he had some previous interest in framing it in such a shape. Ile assured them that the present motion was the only one he ever intended to make. It was true that it was founded upon general principles—principles that might be adopted by many Noble Lords who did not agree with hiM in politics, and that it was framed differently from the motion made in the other House of Parliament. But it was so framed, because it was not usual to move their Lordships to go into a commission of the whole House. The LORD CHANCELLOR, having entered the House while the Noble Marquis was speaking, here interrupted him by saying, "Now, can I address the House now ?" The Marquis of NORMANBY—ReaIIy, my Lords, after the intimation made to me that the Noble and Learned Lord did not intend to speak, and not having risen to reply till 1 re ceived that intimation, I think it strange that the Noble and Learned Lord should ask me if he could address your Lord ships now. Having waited for some minutes to give him an opportunity of speaking, and his Lordship not having risen, I am not much informed of the usages of your Lordships' House, if he has now any means of addressing you. The Noble and Learned Lord cannot address your Lordships now ; my Noble Friends around me will bear me out in saying that it was with the utmost unwillingness I rose to reply ; and now when I am explaining the purport of my motion, the Noble and Learned Lord asks me, " Now, can I address the House now ?" A NOBLE LORD—The Lord Chancellor can speak. The Marquis of NORMANBY (with great warmth)—He cannot speak now ; and I can only say if he does do so, it will be taking a most unfair advantage of me.—( Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.) I waited till an intimation was conveyed to me by a Noble Friend that the Noble Lord would not speak, and then, exercising the privilege of every mover of a motion, 1 am now addressing your Lordships. If the Noble and Learned Lord wishes to make any remarks on the question, it is in his power to do it ; and if a majority of your Lordships bear him out in it, I will say it will be a most unheard-of proceeding.—( This was said with great energy, the Noble Marquis evidently being much excited. ) Lord KENYON rose to order. The right the Noble Mar quis claimed was by no means an invariable one ; it was not an invariable rule that a Noble Lord could silt make a speech on the question after the mover of a resolution had replied. But if the Noble Marquis understood that the Noble and Learned Lord did not mean to speak, he must confess he had a right to feel disappointed. The Marquis of NORMANBY—I do not think the Noble Lord has spoken to order. Lord BROUGHAM—It is to order.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) My Noble and Learned Friend has not heard any argument. The Earl of RADNOR called the Noble and Learned Lord to order.—( Cheering. Hear, hear, and great laughter. ) Lord BROUGHAM—I spea k to order. I entirely agree with the Noble and Learned Baron who spoke from the cross benches (Kenyon). There is no rule of your Lordship? House that gives a natural right to the maker of a motion to close the debate, and if we do not oppose this new doctrine, it will have to be met hereafter, when it may not be so convenient. The courtesy of the House—contrary to the rule and order which prohibits two speeches from one Noble Lord during one debate, gives a reply to the mover of a resolution. But if I have heard it once, I have hea r d it a hundred times, that member s o f y our L or d s hip's House have spoken after the reply. I have m i self been replied to by half a dozen of your Lordships after a reply. The LORD CHANCELLOR rose, and in a voice that be trayed the excitement under which he spoke, said—My Lords, I wish to explain my position. I have been in my Court from ten o'clock this morning till nearly four ; I have sat here from five o'clock till nine, awaiting the return of the Noble Earl (Shaftesbury) ; the Noble Earl having arrived, I quitted the Woolsack only for five minutes, and during that period the question was put, and the Noble Marquis rose to reply.—( Hear, hear.) I have no desire whatever to address your Lordships ; the only reason why I should have wished to address a few words to your Lordships was that they might be explanatory of my own conduct, in con sequence of the imputations that have been cast on me. (11ear,hear.) But 1 have been so nobly, so warmly, so heartily, defended by my Noble Friends—(Loud cheers)—that I shall never regret the accusations made against me. I have waited till this late hour in the evening, expecting that some of my Noble and Learned Friends would have risen for the purpose of giving their opinions on the subject, intending to reply to them. As they have not done so, my Lords, lam quite satisfied with the decisive and triumphant arguments put forward by my Noble Friends, in opposition to the charges made by the Noble Marquis.--( Loud cheers. ) The Marquis of NORMANBY said he was glad the Noble and Learned Lord had stated the grounds on which he wished to have addressed the House. The facts of the case were, that a message was brought him by a Noble Lord, that the Noble and Learned Lord would not speak. The Noble Earl on the Woolsack (Shaftesbury) then insisting that the question should be put, he rose to reply. The LORD CHANCELLOR—I did not intend to reply, except in answer to my Noble and Learned Friends.—( Hear, hear.) (His Lordship here began to put the question to the House, as if for immediate division.) The Marquis of NORMANBY (with great energy)—My Lords, I appeal even to those mast opposed to me in politics, to say if ever there was a more unfair proceeding.—( dear, hear, and cheers, from the Opposition.) I was addressing your Lordships, having first insisted on my right to do so. I then gave way, because the Noble and Learned Lord seemed to wish to defend himself. I sat down to give him ,ran opportunity of doing so, and ho then puts the question.—( Hear. ) The LORD CH ANCELLOR—I beg to set the Noble Marquis right. I said I did not wish to defend myself ; on the contrary, I said I did not intend to do so, considering it I unnecessary, after the admirable defence made by my Noble Friends.—( Cheers.) The Marquis of NORMANBY then proceeded with the reply on his motion, which had been so long interrupted. With respect to this motion, remarks had been thrown out to the effect that it was couched in terms less strong than was at first intended. Ile had framed it according to the usage their Lordships' House. It was a motion for an inquiry into the state of Ireland, with a view to restore confidence in the Government to the people of that country. Ile thought that every measure calculated to restore this con fidence was worthy of their consideration and inquiry. He adverted first to the state of the Church in Ireland as a cause of dissatisfaction. As a first step to remove this feeling, they ought to elevate the character of the Catholic priests, and re move the disqualifications which the Emancipation Act inflicted on the Catholic prelates. The discontent caused by the re striction of the franchise he eharged directly on the Govern merit ; a new arrangement of the representation of Ireland, as it was settled by Lord Castlereagh at the union, was rendered necessary by the Reform Bill in Ireland, which disturbed the relative proportions of the representation of the two countries, He charged the Government with a general ignorance of the present state of Ireland ; with the exception of the illustrious Duke, not one of the Government had any knowledge of that country ; he had noticed the exception that was made of Sir It Peel; he was there only in other days.—( A Noble Lord, " Goulburn !") He defended what he had said of the appointment of Lord Eliot, and re peated his charge of a disregard of public opinion in the appointments of Baron Lefroy and Sergeant Jackson to judicial situations. These appointments, the giving all their clerical patronage to the most violent opponents of the national education system, and the selection of the Attorney- General, all proved that. ignorance of the state of public feel ing in Ireland of which he complained. He passed rapidly over the circumstances connected with the proclamation against the repeal meetings, stating that the Government was as much bound to notice the first of them as the last, and affirming that the preservation of the peace was mainly owing to the exertions of Mr. O'Connell himself, from whom they had the least right to expect assistance. He was told that the motion was ill-timed ; whenever there was more than usual interest felt by the people in the conduct of the Government, this was always the plea ; it was the old answer. But he believed that one of the likeliest means of restoring tranquillity to Ireland would be to adopt the resolution. He denied that it was brought forward from any wish to embarrass the Government; though he should not have been deterred from doing what he considered to be his duty by the fear of embarrassing it. Having replied to the as sertion made by Lord Roden, that they were then " reaping the fruit of the wholesale discharge of the gaols" made during his Government of Ireland, by showing that he remitted fewer sentences than the Lord-Lieutenant of 11323, and having justified his dismissal of Colonel Verner from the magistracy, (another of the charges made against him) for giving as a toast the " Battle of the Diamond," he proceeded to notice some of the observations made by another Noble Lord ( Howden) in the course of his speech. He hesitated, however, to allude to them in the absence of the Noble Lord, who was not in his place.-- ( Cries of "Go on, go on.") The Noble Marquis still pausing on account of the ahsence of the Noble Lord— - - The LORD CHANCELLOR said—Speak of him, and he'll appear.—( Great laughter.) The Marquis of NORMANBY then proceeded to notice the speech of the Noble Lord he had alluded to, (while he was commencing, Lord Howden entered the House from the library, whence he had been summoned.) He repeated that he had listened with great pleasure to the speech of the Noble Lord, which, from its manner, was a very agreeable one. But he had observed that nothing was more favourably received than a very sharp thing said by any person against those with whom he was supposed, to some extent, to agree.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord said that the motion was brought on with a particular object ; he did not state what that object was. Ile (the Marquis of Normanby) certainly would not attribute any particular object to his Noble Friend, in making that remark. Surely it was hardly worth the while of his Noble Friend, in the remarks which he thought it his duty to make, to rake up the old story of Mr. O'Connell about the old hat. That was a story told somewhere about ten years ago, and it was intended to apply to Earl Grey's Administration. Why it should be used by the Noble Lord (Howden), of whose support that Go vernment, and other Liberal Governments, had had the benefit in their policy towards Ireland, it was for the Noble Lord rather than for him (Lord Normanby) to explain. Allusion had been mule to his (Lord Normanby's) conduct in respect to the offer of the Mastership of the Rolls to Mr. O'Connell. Ile (Lord Normanby) begged to say, that he had never for one moment regretted making that offer. The only regret he had ever experienced in reference to the matter was, that that Honourable and Learned Member had thought fit to decline accepting it. He most sincerely thought, that if Mr. O'Con nell had accepted that appointment, it would have been one of the very best things that could possibly , have happened for the prospective prosperity of Ireland. Had he known tha t the subject would have been alluded to, be wou ld - 3, - S T rtt , /,1 --,....,..._,_ have brought down to the House "a 41.. 77 7,l -t, reference to the subject, being a lett k ' ~s, > '' addressed at the time to the late lamented Mr. ni cie . .i. , - .1 1 7- ; - - --=',. - bp and which being found amongst his papers by his Wrd , 1 „.,... -, --- 4, ',..":- been kindly forwarded to him a few days back. In t ' ettlirT c ft v 4 ~ nk . ? OA would have been fOund, in the fullest terms, the riiston;--ott 4l - '' - t ' which he justified the offer that had been made, and the wide distinction which he had drawn, and ever should draw, between promoting a strong political partisan to a seat on the criminal and a seat or, the equity bench.—(Hear, hear.) He had to express to the House the regret of a Noble anti Gallant Friend of his, the Marquis of Anglesca, at not having it in his power to address the House upon this subject. The Noble Marquis had been down on the last evening of the discussion, and in the early part of the present, with the intention of addressing the House, and nothing but the extreme suffering which he was enduring would have hindered him from so doing. His Noble Friend had, however, desired him (Lord Normarby) to express his cordial concurrence in the motion then before the House, and his approval of those measures of justice and conciliation which it was the wish of Noble Lords on that side of the House to see proposed and agreed to by Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) Before he sat down by wished to say one word as to the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. There were persons—good and sincere friends of Ireland—who were anxious to see the im mediate abolition of this office. He confessed that he was not amongst this class. He certainly looked upon that office as an anomalous one, but he looked tea its abolition as the conciliating and crowning glory of those re medial measures which he still hoped to see enacted for Ire land.--( Hear, hear.) But it was his opinion that they began at the wrong end who wished to remove that office at present. On looking back, he could not but admit the great practical benefit which had arisen front the office. When he turned to the years which Lord Wellesley had passed there, he could not do otherwise than recollect with grateful satisfaction how his Viceroyalty had prepared the public mind for the relaxation of all those restrictive laws which had subsequently . been ob tained. And no one could doubt that during the Irish admi nistration of his Noble Friend behind him (Earl Fortescue) that country had made rapid strides in the progress of civili sation.—( Hear.) In concluding the remarks he had thought it his duty to make, he wished he could en tertain any doubt as to the vote to which their Lord ships would come. As to what would ultimately be the result of the legislation for Ireland, any one who would look back to the history of his own times—unless, indeed, there should be an outbreak or civil war, the ultimate consequences of which, even to the victor, not only in character, but in every other respect., could only be conceived with horror—any one, he said, who would look back to the last twenty years could easily foresee. There must, and there would be, concessions of a large and a comprehensive character.—( Cheers.) The question was only one of time.—( Hear.) But these suspicions might now, as before, be so long postponed by the ob stinacy and perverseness of that House and the Government, that they, as in too many instances, by their tardiness, would lose all their grace, and much of their good ; but he felt certain that concession, and ample, liberal concession, must be the result.— ( Hear, hear.) I say (concluded the Noble Lord) that upon us, at this' side of the House, devolves the duty to induce the people of Ireland to have patience, to bear meekly for a little while, and not to give up hope, for, of the ultimate results we have, and can have, no doubt ; but upon you, and you alone (pointing to the Treasury Benches), rests the responsibility and the consequences of delay.—( Cheers.) Lord BROUGHAM—My Lords—(Cries of " Divide, di vide")—l shall not detain your Lordsbip's more than a few moments.— ( Great uproar and cries of " No, no," " Divide, divide.") My Lords, I only wish to say one word, one word to your Lordships on the extraordinary, the very extra ordinary position in which we are placed. When a motion was made the other night for an adjournment of this debate, I opposed it. I opposed it, my Lords, because I thought it was not desired by your Lordships, because I thought it unneces sary, totally unnecessary, since the debate could hare been easily closed that night. But I was told " No." I was told it could not be closed, and I was further told that a Noble Lord, to hear whom I would at any time make any sacrifice whatever, wished to address. your Lordships, and there fore, my Lords, I withdrew my opposition at once, and very cheerfully consented to the adjournment. But my Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Campbell) who moved the adjourn ment, who urged the adjournment, to whom I yielded the ad journment, and who ought to have opened the debate this even ing, why, that Noble and Learned Lord has not spoken at all ; but I don't mean to complain of that—(Shouts of laughter) —there is in that no ground of complaint—(Great confusion and peals of laughter)—but 1 merely wished to call your Lord ships' attention to the extraordinary position we are in, and to the fact that the debate might just as well have been brought to a close on the other evening as on this. —( Great laughter, amidst which Lord Brougham resumed his seat on the Woolsack, which he had occupied nearly all the evening. ) Lord CAMPBELL rose, somewhat excited, and, amidst great uproar, and loud cries of " Divide."—Nothing, my Lords, said he, can be more irregular or more improper than the pro ceeding just adopted by the Noble and Learned Lord...-. (Laughter.) But, my Lords, there is nothing at all sur prising in this—nothing surprising in anything the Noble and Learned Lord does, fur all his proceedings in this House are one tissue of irregularities.—( Laughter.) I moved the adjourns ment, my Lords, because I thought the Noble arid Learned Lord would have addressed you, and it was my intention to have followed him in the debate.—(Laughter.) I cannot be very much blamed for supposing that the Noble and Learned Lord intended to address you, at least once i n th e course o f th e debate--( Great laughter)—for I am sure (and I am under your Lordships' correction in stating it) that this is the very first debate, upon any subject whatever, that has taken place in your Lordships House, since the Noble and Learned Lord had the honour of a seat in it, on which he has not addressed you— (Cheers and laughter)—and I believe it will be in your Lordships' recollection, as it is in my own, that upon one occasion the Noble and Learned Lord spoke no less than seven times.—( Shouts of laughter and great uproar.) What I thought, too, my Lords, was, that the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack would have addressed your Lordships, for there was a mist serious charge advanced against the Govern- .' , ment for their conduct in the recent legal proceedings . . in another place, and I naturally thought he would be anxious to meet that charge, and to answer it, and :if possible repel it.—( Hear, hear.) But, my Lords, he has neither spoken by himself, nor by his counsel.—(Great cheering and laughter.) He allows judginent to go by what lawyers call nil died. I hope, my Lords, this will be some excuse for me in your Lordships' eyes, for having moved this adjournment.—(Laughter.) The Noble and Learned Lord says he is not sorry that I have not spoken, and I believe him ; but he may depend upon it, I will not. remain silent, for whenever he may choose to address your Lordships, ho may rest assured I will follow him—(Laughter)—and will not fail to remind him of his departure—his entire and extra ordinary departure—from those principles, the advocacy and support of which made him once the pride and glory, nut only of his own country, bet of the world—(Great sensation)—of those grand principle:, for the triumph of which he once so' nobly battled with friends, whom it seems now to be his sole aim to oppose.—(Great uproar.) Lord :BROUGHAM (with some warmth)—My Lords, I have been charged with irregularities. A charge, my Lords, more grossly untrue.—(A burst of laughter) —more grossly untrue, my Lords—( Continued laughter) —more grossly unfounded, in point of fact, than that charge, it has never hap pened to me to hear, in the whole course of my life, even from the Noble arid Learned Lord who has so rashly ventured to ad vance it.—( Uproar, and cries of " Divide, divide.") My Lords, I have a right, a perfect. right, to address myself to your Lordships on this debate now or whenever I like to do so.— ( Laughter.) The rule of Parliament, my Lords, the rule of both the houses constituting the Parliament of this country, and I have sat a longer time—a far longer time, my Lords, in both of them, than the Noble and Learned Lord who assumes to know so much more about them —( Great laughter)—is that every Member has a right to speak, and I have not spoken in the course of this debate. I have a right to speak whenever 1 think proper—either before the Noble Marquis ( Normanby) rose to reply, or after he had resumed his seat—for it is by courtesy alone that a Member is allowed to reply—(hear, hear)—and now that he has replied, I have a right to speak to the whole question, if, as I have said, my Lords, I may think it right or expedient that I should do so.—(Laughter.) That is ray undoubted privilege, my Lords, and one which no taunts of ignorant—( Great uproar)—which, I say, no taunts of ignorant new Nembers of Parliament, who do not know even the A B C of the rules and privileges of this House —who show a degree of ignorance which I had thought it impossible for any person to display—no taunts whatever, especially when used by such persons as these, shall deprive me of my privileges as a Peer of Parliament.—(Cheers, and loud laughter.) But, my Lords, I ought perhaps to confess that, in now a second time addressing your Lordships, I am guilty of irregularity.—( Shouts of laughter.) But is this an irre gularity without excuse, or without example in this House, my Lords? Is it not the rule—a very wise and useful rule doubtless, my Lords—(Laughter) of both Houses of Parliament, to waive the strict interpretation of their laws if an individual Member is unexpectedly charged with an offence, and to extend to him every indulgence and facility for justification ?—( Hear, hear.) And happy and rejoiced —most happy and most re joiced am I to find, my Lords, that for the first time in this House the vile and false charge that I have changed my prin ciples, deserted my early opinions, and fallen away from my friends, has been brought fairly fore - v . ll against me—that those with whom I have acted as a party man for so many years—to me with no great advantage that I know of—( Laughter)—to their own great advantage, it may be said also—to whom I was a faithful, truthful, thoughtful, consistent, and unflinching sup porter—( Great uproar)—that because I was compelled to change my relations with them, when they ceased to hold those opinions which for so great a length of time we had been ac customed to hold in common—as I have again and again had to demonstrate in their presence, without a shadow of a pretext for such change of opinion from any one of them—( Great laughter and slight cheers)—happy am I to find that this vile and false charge is promised at last to be distinctly brought against me. I defy, my Lords, any one of them to substantiate the slightest change or inconsistency in me— (Uproar)—and I will give them the opportunity of doing so, depend upon it, now that they have selected the most powerful, experienced. judicious, and discreet Lord as the only champion whom they could call out of their ranks to bring against me.— ' ( Uproar.) Yes, my Lords, if I can devise the means. and I think I can do so, 1 will give to him, their counsel—( A Laugh) an opportunity to bring his charges against me ; and I will defy him and them to bring forward any one particular case in which I have changed my opinions, or t hat I have abandoned any principle that I have ever once maintained.—( Laughter.) The challenge, my Lord, is a large and comprehensive one, and the defiance is the same ; but I throw out that defiance, with the most perfect certainty that in the contest I must pre vail.—(Great uproar throughout the House.) Lord CAMPBELL again rose, amid great noise, laughter, and cries of " Divide," " Adjourn." lie said—The House need not be alarmed, for I will not detain it one moment. Whenever my Noble and Learned Friend—(Cries of " Oh, oh")—for such I will continue to call him, gives me an opportunity of entering upon these topics when a proper opportunity is offered roe for going into them, let him be assured I will not refuse, nor shrink from, the re sponsibility of maintaining, and of proving, everything that I have stated.—( Loud cheers.) It may happen, perhaps, that some others have changed, but whether lie (Lord Brougham) or they, is not now the proper time to decide.--( Hear, hear. ) When the opportunity promised by the Noble and Learned Lord is offered to me, I beg to assure him and the House, that I certainly will nut shrink from going into the question, and maintaining the position I have taken up.—( Cheers. ) The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, before your Lordships proceed to a division, I have one observation to make.__( Hear, hear.) It has been said that a grave charge was brought in the course of this debate against the Govern ment in respect of certain law proceedings which have been in stituted against certain parties in another place. My Lords, I have never heard such charge made, and, therefore, there is nothing that I have felt myself called upon to notice in this discussion. Such charges as were brought by the Noble Mar quis (Nermanby ) against her Majesty's Government for their administration of justice in Ireland, I consider were m n o t st o s_a the factorily answered by my Noble Friends the President their Council and and the President of the Board of Trade in ' and being cellerit speeches.—(Hear, hear.) For prnatwraes put, I did not absent at the moment when the questio bat had any feel called upon to address your res Lordsh ips, pea to legal charges been made upon points in the t them. That is the to ince when there appeared— ; ns explanationshould ce certainly a h i n a y e haveto give. been •• 39 conduct TeofoConut the 3een i:epnr recent edsievnitde trials , d, s 39 Proxies .19yo0 C 1 .. _ ~ .:. .r. :... I N