The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-21 00:00:00

- THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORN! NG, FEBRUARY 21, 1844. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 20. Their Lordships met at Five o'clock. INDEMNITY OF WITNESSES. The Bill for indemnifying witnesses examined before Committees of Parliament, was read a third time, and passed. LAW OF LIBEL. Oa the motion of Lord CAMPBELL, the Law of Libel Bill was read a second time, and referred to a Committee. On the motion of Lord NORMANBY, returns of the correspondence between the Lord Chancellor and Mr. aDriscoll were ordered. Their Lordships then adjourned till Thursday. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 20. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. Mr. HARDY brought up the Manchester and Leeds lisaway Bill, which was read a first time ; also, the Huddersfield Branch Railway Bill, which was read a first time. Mr. MUNTZ brought up the Birmingham Naviga tion Bill, which was read a first time. Mr. WALKER brought up the Manchester, Leeds, and Heywood Branch Railway Bill, which was read a first time. On the motion of Mr. M. PHILIPS, the Manchester Bury, and Rossendale Railway Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. Mr. MUNTZ presented a petition from Birmingham, praying for a reduction of the duty on tobacco. Mr. 0. GORE presented a petition from Oswestrv, in Wales, complaining of the heavy tolls payable on lime conveyed for the purposes of husbandry. Mr. B. COCHRANE presented a petition from Lord Dundonald, praying for an extension of the patent for his invention of the rotatory steam-engine. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from Ha wick, in Roxburghshire, praying the House not to grant supplies until the suffrage had been extended, and the grievances of the people had been redressed. The following Members were appointed the Select Committee on Divorce Bills : Mr. Hay ter, Mr. Scarlett, Mr. Sergeant Stock, Sir John Yarde Buller, Mr. Hogg, Mr. Wilson Patten, Mr. Bur roughes, Mr. Hardy, Mr. Tancred, Mr. Evans, Mr. Bruce, Mr. Gibson Craig, Mr. Patrick M. Stewart, Mr. Robert Scott, and Mr. Darby. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. W. WILLIAMS gave notice that he should post pone till this day fortnight his motion, which stood for 'to-morrow, that no business be brought on after twelve o'clock at night. Lord PALMERSTON gave notice that he should postpone his motion respecting the right of search from to-morrow till to-morrow fortnight. On the motion of Mr. WATSON, the following re . turns were ordered:—Return of all the officers in the Courts of Common Pleas and Chancery of the county palatine of Lancaster, and in the Crown-office of the county palatine of Lancaster, with names of the officers, and the dates of their respective appointments (and of the persons by whom appointed), distinguishing between • those that are paid wholly or in part by. fees, and those that are paid by salary, with the amount of such fees or salary received by each of such officers, and stating which (if any) of such offices are sinecure, or performed - by deputy, with the name of such deputy or deputies, with the date and particulars .of their appointment, and the salaries paid to such de puty; also, a return of all fees received in those Courts in the years 1841, 1842, and 1843, and of the appropria tion thereof, stating the names of the several persons to whom such fees are paid, either for salary, compensation, or otherwise, and the title and nature of the office, or abolished office, in respect of which the same is paid ; also, a return of all compensations granted for the Last ten years before the 31st day of December, 1843, to any officer of the Court of Chancery or Court of Common Pleas at Lancaster, stating the amount of such compensation, and the nature of the per sons to whom, and the office in respect of which, the same was granted, and the amount of compensations paid in each of those years. Similar return from the Court of Pleas, Court of Chancery, and Crown-office of the county palatine of Durham. Return of all the fees received by the taxing masters of the Court of Chancery since their appointment, stating on what aceount re •ceived, and how applied and appropriated. Return of all moneys received on account of fees in the years 1841, 1842, and 1843, in the Courts of Queen's Bench, Com mon Pleas, and Exchequer, or of any of the officers thereof; and a return of the application or appropria tion of moneys so received ; and a return of all salaries, compensations, and other payments made out of such moneys, stating the names of the persons to whom paid, and the office, or abolished or reduced office, in respect of which such payments are made ; and also, a return of all officers of such of those Courts who are paid in whole or in part by fees, stating the names of the per sons so paid, and the office in respect of which they are so paid, and the amount of fees paid to or received by any such officer so paid in part or in the whole by fees, in each of those years. THE CUSTOMS. Mr. HUME moved fora Select Committee, to inquire into the extent of smuggling of tobacco, spirits, silks, tea, and other articles upon which high import and ex cise duties are levied, and into the nature and ex tent of frauds by adulteration, or by the sub stitution of spurious imitations of highly-taxed arti cles; and also to inquire into the effects of such smug gling and frauds on the revenue of the country, and on the morals of the persons engaged in these frauds; and further to inquire into the expense of the coast guard, and of other establishments for the protection of the revenue, and to report the evidence, and their opinion thereon, to the House. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET suggested that, under present circumstances, the matter should be postponed. Mr. HUME said the Committee ought to be appointed, and to report independently of the report to be expected from the Commissioners. PRIVY COUNCIL. Mr. HUME moved for a return of the number of causes or petitions heard on appeal before the Lord Chancellor and her Majesty's Privy Council during the last two years, with the dates of such hearing, distin guishing those upon which judgment has been given from those upon which judgment has not been given. POST-OFFICE ARRANGEMENTS. Mr. HUME said that amongst the papers delivered by the officers of the House that morning, was the copy of a convention made by the Pest-office of this country. He wished to ask if there was any chance of such a con vention being arranged with the United States, a country with which it was most desirable that there should be every facility of communication. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the Post-office authorities of this country were in communication with those of the United States upon the subject. IRELAND—ADJOURNED DEBATE. Mr. HAWES, alluding to a remark made by the Soli citor-General, that this was 'a party motion, and would be a party vote, said,—Such motives should not be attributed to them, inasmuch as the Govern ment proposed nothing for their consideration calculated to meet the emergency of the moment, or to restore tranquillity, or allay apprehension for the future, with regard to Ireland. It had been stated by the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, that conciliation had reached its utmost limits. That principle was confirmed by the Right Honourable Gentleman who spoke last night. They had distinctly declared that they were determined to maintain the Church in Ireland, in the face of all history and experience, which proved it to be a source of discord to that country. For this purpose all the material interests of Ireland were to be postponed to the simple and single object of maintaining the Protestant Church inviolate. It was said by a wise man of old, that Ireland was one of the richest countries in -Europe—one which they might make a source of strength and revenue. But by the policy they pursued towards it, they turned it into a source of weakness and impoverishment. Instead of adding to their strength by connexion with that country, their own divisions made them actually weaker in consequence of that union, than if they were in a state of perfect separation. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State had stated that great meetings were held in Ireland in 1840. It was true " coming events cast their shadows before"—it was then perceived that the Tories would succeed to power, and these meetings showed the great apprehension of the Irish people of the succession to power of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite. If, as the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury said, it was necessary to have a strong central Government for that country, they had it now in the army. Without that suppression of public opinion there would be such a decla ration on the part of the people of Ireland as would be sufficient to drive them from power. When the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury pointed to the times of Strafford and Charles as those of peace and good government, he was astonished to hear those opinions so favourably received. The declaration made by a Right Hon. Gentleman oppo site, that the Church was to be maintained in its present state, was, in point of fact, nothing more than a declara tion that Ireland must henceforth - be governed by force. The present state of Ireland reminded him (Mr. Hawes) of a very eventful period in our history, that of p 76, when the first news arrived in this country of the Imerican declaration of independence. At that time the Government seemed to be determined, as their difficulties increased, to make more stringent their coer cive measures with respect to the colonies. The House would remember that in 1817 the Right Hon. Baronet made a most powerful speech against Catholic Emanci pation, and yet twelve years afterwards the same Right Hon. Baronet proposed the Catholic Emancipation Bill. It was the same with respect t o th e T est and Corporation. Act, for two years before that measure was proposed the Right Hon. Baronet spoke most powerull it. It had several times been said during this Y ag ai nst debate that the Catholics at the time of emancipation gave pledge that the Protestant Church sh ou ld not be again a made the subject of agitation. He (Mr. H awes ), in the presence of the Right Hon. Baronet, begged to deny this. Mr. O'Connell at the time of emancipation said that if that Act were carried out faithfully and with spirit, it would lead to religious equality, and therefore it would be the means of abolishing religious differences. Had this been the case, of course there would have been no fur ther agitation on the subject of the Protestant Church. He appealed to the House, whether the spirit of the Catholic Emancipation Act had been followed out. — (Hear, hear.) The authorities had acted in a spirit op posed to that Act.—(Loud cheers.) Appointments the most offensive had been made. Two partisan judges had been raised to the bench.—(Cheers.) All their measures were opposed to the Emancipation Bill, and judging from the appointments which they had made, he felt convinced that the present Government was adopting the old course of governing Ireland by maintaining the Protestant ascendancy. He was con vinced that until perfect religious equality should be esta blished in Ireland there would be no hope of establishing peace in that country.—(Cheers.) With regard to the proposition of the Noble Lord on the subject of the Irish Church, all he understood the Noble Lord to pro pose was this, that the policy he should wish to see adopted was one which should acknowledge perfect religious equality.—(Hear, hear.) If Hon. Gentle ', men opposite thought they could raise the "No Pop er y' cry in England, he would tell them that they would be disappointed. The Protestant Dissenters would not be roused by that cry to aid those who sought to perpetuate the religious bondage of the Irish.—(Cheers.) The Pro testant Dissenters had been opposed to the Catho lics of the olden time, because the Catholics had been opposed to civil liberty, but when they found the Ca tholics of Ireland were supporting the principle of civil liberty, the Protestant Dissenters of England would not be roused by the " No Popery" cry.—(Cheers.) The existence of the Established Church in Ireland tended to strengthen the cause of the Roman Catholic religion, and to make it take deep root in the hearts of the people. Nothing but the establishment of religious equality could produce tranquillity in Ireland. If the payment of the Catholic priesthood should be proposed as part of a great plan for tranquillising Ireland—if it were conjoined with a measure fob the extension of the franchise, both municipal and Parliamentary, then he would be prepared to sacrifice his preconceived opinions, and to support such a measure ; but if it were proposed as a measure by itself, and separated from any proposition for ameliorating the condition of the Irish people, he should give it all the opposition in his power. —(Hear.) He should prefer seeing the voluntary system established in Ireland. He should wish to see the whole of the Irish Church vested in the hands of Commis sioners, and devoted to the providing of moral and re ligious instruction for the whole community.—(Hear.) That principle might not find favour in this House, but it had grown up with the growth of the country. It had gradually made its way among the nation, and if they wished that the State should receive effective and pure religion, the best way of acccomplishing that was by leaving religion alone. The history of Dissent in this country fully proved that the voluntary princi ple,. if properly worked, would be fully sufficient to im part religious instruction. The Hon. Gentleman went on to show how Dissent was established in this.country, and said that the State was a pernicious ally of any reli gion. Many eminent men had held this opinion, that the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism was, that the one sought the aid of the State to uphold it, while the other relied on its own independent priest hood. As he said before, he would support the payment of the Catholic clergy in Ireland as a part and parcel of a general plan for the tranquillisation of that country, but he still should maintain that it would be desirable, and he should desire a reversion to the voluntary prin ciple. It was a mistake to think that the prosecution against Mr. O'Connell would deprive him of the sym pathy of the people of Ireland. It was an unjust and un worthy course to adopt,and was inadequate to attain its end, for it would only add to Mr. O'Connell's strength in Ireland, and multiply the number of his friends. He did not consider him to have had a fair trial.—(Cheers.) Under such circumstances the verdict which had been obtained would have no moral effect. It had been said that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department made out a good case with regard to the striking of the jury, but he (Mr. Hawes) took a higher objection, and he did not see why men should be pronounced unfit to deliver a fair verdict, because they spoke out their political opinions on the subject of the repeal of the union.—(Hear, hear.) Would they apply such a doctrine in this country? If at the time of the Reform Bill a Reformer had committed aq offence, would it be alleged that there could not be a fair and just trial if those who were in favour of Re form were on his jury, or that they could not give a verdict according to the evidence ? He had no faith that the present Cabinet would do justice to Ireland. What confidence could be placed in men whn sat together in the same Cabinet, and who changed their opinions and politics ? The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Horne Department said, that as an abstract principle, he had no objection to the pay ment of the Roman Catholic clergy. That was a ques tion which had been before discussed in that House, and on that occasion the Right lion. Gentleman, the First Lord of the Treasury, said that the payment of the Catholic clergy was contrary to the principles of the Reformation, and they might as well get rid of the Thirty nine Articles. That would be an answer to the Right Hon. Gentleman by a member of the same Cabinet. But take the ease of education : there was no stronger opponent of the Board of Privy Council than the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department. He was now going to increase the grant to Maynooth, but who had used stronger language on the subject than a Noble Duke in the other House ? The Duke of Wellington declared that it was opposed to Christianity, and that it ought not to be permitted to continue. What faith could he place in the declamations of the Right Hon. Gen tleman opposite, when he found opinions so strong ex pressed by another member of the Cabinet? Promises had been made before under somewhat similar circum stances.—(Hear, hear.) He would venture to call the attention of the House to the promises given by Mr. Pitt, and he was not aware that this portion of Mr. Pitt's declaration had yet been brought under the attention of the House. In April 1800, on the proposal of the union, Mr. Pitt said that if they wished to accomplish the great work they had undertaken, they must look at this important subject in a large and comprehensive point of view ; they must consider it as a measure of great national policy—the object of which was to prevent a separation between two countries whose connexion was as necessary for the safety of one as for the prosperity of the other ; they must regard it as a measure the object of which was to give the sister kingdom full participation in the com merce and Constitution of this country—to unite the affections and resources of two powerful nations, and to place under one direction the whole force of the empire. Now he asked Hon. Gentlemen opposite whether, in point of fact, the union had dissipated jealousy between the two countries? He would ask the Right Honourable Baronet whether he was not prevented from carrying into effect the union ? Her Majesty's Minister might be inclined to act, perhaps, in a spirit of impar tiality ; but there were gentlemen on that side of the House who were wedded to their own notions; who were determined to abide by their own prejudices ; who had learnt nothing and forgotten nothing in the ten years during which they had been out of office, and who were resolved to constrain the Right — Honourable Gentleman (Sir R. Peel), not only to refuse all that was fair and reasonable, but all which was necessary for the interest and integrity of the two countries. There was one man who, at the time when the union was pro posed, protested against it in terms most emphatic, not to say most prophetic ; and his words might well instruct that party which made Ireland the nursery of sedition. It was too clear, from the examples he had. given, and from the authorities he had referred to, that from the first there had been but a nominal union between the two nations. The party which had chiefly governed this country for the last forty years had kept its position by creating divisions in the empire ; and it was determined to try for the continu ance of its power by the same means which, in the long run, must be alike ruinous to the governor and the governed. All the nobler objects of government, all the hopes and aspirations to render a population more happy, more moral, and more prosperous, must be post poned—and all for the fancied good and safety of the Church. All the old evils of Ireland were to find fresh nourishment, to receive permanency and strength, be cause of this Church.—(Hear, hear.) The time had arrived when religious liberty was struggling with religious intolerance, justice with injustice ; and though the contest might be a severe one, he had no fear for the result. It was said, and with perfect truth, that the eyes of all Europe were fixed upon Ire land at the present moment. No man who glanced over the foreign newspapers could do so without observing how all minds seemed to be turned upon that country. It was but natural to expect that the jea lousies of foreign nations, in regard to this country would be excited into livelier action when they saw the weakness created by our own misgovernment of Ire land. And sad ought to be our own reflections, that should the time of struggle ever come with them, were we to be doomed to fall, it would not be from the vigour and power of our foes, but from that innate weakness we brought upon ourselves in this petty paltry struggle to maintain the Irish Church.—(Hear, hear.) Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON said, that Hon. Gen tlemen opposite must be sadly at a loss for arguments against the Government,' when they were obliged to speak as the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down did, of the elevation of two Right Rev. Prelates to the Bench. The Hon. Gentleman also seemed tc say, that being a repealer was sufficient to disqualify a person from serving on a jury ; but, if the Hon. Gen tleman had read the papers, he would see that that excuse was made by persons who wished not to serve on juries, but that the Judges had set the matter right. The object of the prosecutions was not to put down the agitation for repeal, but to repress the manner in which it was agitated. There had been much misre presentation about the omission of twenty-four names from the jury list.—(Hear, hear.) It had been said that upwards of sixty names were omitted, when, in truth, only twenty-four were, by accident, and that acci dent was attributable to a Roman Catholic officer. Great stress had been laid upon this point of the exclu sion of Roman Catholics, but h e wou ld g i ve th em an ex planation of the principal cause why th e C a th o li cs were not more prominent. The more respectable and upper classes of that persuasion were so disgusted at the agita tors preaching vengeance against the Saxon, instead of peace and good will to all men, that they were glad to re tire into private life. And no one could wonder at this, after the accusations which had been made, even in this House, against the twelve honest men, and the calum nies which had been heaped upon them by the Hon. arid Learned Sergeant the Member for Cork, who called them a good Protestant jury, ready to convict, and ready to immolate their foe — Mr. Sergeant MURPHY—No, no; I never used the word "immolate." Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON—The Honourable and Learned Gentleman at all events stated that there was no justice to be expected from this jury.—(Hear, hear.) During this debate he had heard much of the readiness but which the Irish na ti on wou ld r e c eive a foreign foe, ut he would tell Honourable Gentlemen foreign foes were not so ready to take advantage of this nation. He then alluded to the y t ituperative abuse which Mr. the in the habit raising 1 7 p C pe o , nn a t oing heapinga an on Irish . Louis brigade -; Government in Ireland was and then denied that the was wholly .one a force and opi nion. It would be impossible with suclilemilitary force to hold 8,000,0000 of, inhabitants in a s such sub jection. He, therefore, thought it was a most calum nious and unwarrantable insult, to charge the whole nation with being disaffected to the Queen, and desirous of throwing off her authority, and dismembering the empire. It had been said that order and peace had prevailed in Ireland ; there was no doubt that this was owing to the preaching of the Honourable and Learned Member for Cork. But he preached peace, and at the same time levied an army—he preached loyalty, and at the same time attempted to alienate her Majesty's army from her. If the Government had not interfered, the loyal inhabi tants of Ireland would have armed themselves in self defence, and opposed force to force. One side of the House attempted to monopolise all feeling and sympathy for Ireland, as if Hon. Me.nbers on this (the Ministerial) side of the House were utterly callous to the ! grievances and wishes of Ireland, but he could tell Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that there was an earnest desire among Members of the Conservative party to redress 1 the real grievances of that country, and to improve her ! condition. It was said that the Honourable Gentleman the Member for Cork exercised an all-powerful influence over the people of Ireland ; and the same was said of the Roman Catholic priesthood ; if so, they were criminable for all those disgraceful offences were the result of agitation and excitement. But the fact was, neither the Honourable Gentleman nor the Catholic priesthood were able to control the feelings of the people. The priests had, in the first instance, raised their voices against Father Mathew, but the principles of tempe rance triumphed, despite the influence of the priesthood. Ireland should not be considered as one uniform coun try, to which the same remedies were applicable, He came from Ulster, and there was not a more peace ful, quiet province in Ireland. They had few soldiers there. Property was safe p there were no out rages. And yet they had no peculiar advan tages. They had a third Church to support there, and the majority of the inhabitants of the province were Roman Catholics ; but the inhabitants of that province were, generally speaking, what was denominated bloody" Tories, and all those who had influence did everything in their power to improve the condition of the people, to educate them, and instead of endeavour ing to set man against man, they endeavoured to unite all classes of society in harmony.—(Cheers.) Let them compare the state of Ulster with that of Tipperary. The state of Tipperary made every Irish man blush. Had not the societies established from time to time by the Liberals been changed almost every year on account of their trenching upon the law of the land? They had had societies for every object and of every character, but there had not been one of them that had.been of a strictly legal character. Was it then to be wondered at that the unfortunate people of Ireland had to a great extent forgotten obedience to the law? They talked of British capital being driven away. Of course it was driven away. Capitalists would not go where life was in danger even in broad daylight. Capital never would go there till life was safe, and life would not be safe so long as agitation was permitted. When English Members complained of the suppression of meetings in Ireland, they must remember what were the means used to bring about those assemblages—the natural excitability of the Irish people, and the circumstance of their being attracted by the transcendent eloquence of their leader.—(Hear.) At some of the meetings in Ireland there were fifteen hands of music and numerous banners, things which never were to be seen at a meeting in England. There was no similarity between political agitation in England and in Ireland, and as little similarity between the feel ings mad passions of the two people. Had not the Honourable anti Learned Member for Cork called the proclamation of her Majesty a forgery, and stated that it never had emanated from her ? Of all the silly accusations which had been brought against the Government by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, none was more foolish than that the proclamation was delayed for the purpose of bringing the people into collision with the military. He felt no doubt that the object of the Noble Lord's motion was to attach the stigma of a want ofconfidence by the House in her Majesty's Ministers. Judging from appearances—from the manner in which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been received by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and from the fact of his hav ing sent over two counsel to advise with the Noble Lord —he should be inclined to believe that the Lichfield House compact had been renewed. He deprecated the attacks which had been made upon the present Govern ment of Ireland, and considered that the animadversions of' the Right Hon. Gentleman, last evening, on the com position of the jury, on the verdict, and on the charge of the judge, were calculated to produce anarchy in Ire land. He was glad to hear that a larger sum was to be devoted to the purposes of national education ; but he trusted that the present system would be modified in , such a manner as to secure to those who were educated under it a free access to the Scriptures. He should be glad to see some measure passed to legalise the pay ment of dues to the Catholic priests, and to fix their amount ; and should the dues not be sufficient for the priest's maintenance, he should not object to a State allowance. He thought it was a great mistake to grant only 8,0001. a year to Maynooth; the grant should be in creased so as to hold out an inducement to persons of the superior classes to study for the priesthood. He should also wish to see the Roman Catholic College removed from Maynooth to some part of England, in which the Catholic gentry and yeomanry of the neighbourhood would be inclined to treat the students with that courtesy which they did not meet with at present. The O'CONOR DON protested against Hon. Gen tlemen on the other side claiming for themselves a mo nopoly of Loyalty.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever might be the result of this debate, the declaration of the Noble Lord with regard to the kind feelings of her Majesty to wards her Irish subjects would be gratefully remembered in that country—(Loud cheers)—and justly appreciated. —(Cheers.) There was not a more loyal body in exist ence than the Roman Catholic population of Ireland— (Cheers)—and this was no conditional loyalty—it did not depend on considerations of time or circumstance — upon Whig or Tory being in power. It was sincere and genuine attachment to the Sovereign.—(Loud cheers.) He objected to the system which had been pursued to wards Ireland by the present Government. It was true that many circumstances, of which complaints had been made, had been explained during the course of the de bate, but those circumstances had created an impression which no after•explanation could eradicate, and it was the duty of the Government so to act as not to place itself under the necessity for explanation. He did not think the explanations which had been offered to account for the delay in the issuing the proclamation prohibiting the meeting at Clontarf were satisfactory. No attempt had been made to interfere with the Donnybrook meeting, which had been held under pre cisely similar circumstances. The people had behaved most peaceably ; and when it had been hinted that the going to Clontarf in a certain direction might hurt the feelings of the Protestants, who would meet them on the road to church, they had stated their determination to avoid going to the meeting by that road. There had been no breach of the peace at the other meetings, and there was no pretence for saying that there was any reason to apprehend a breach of the peace at Clontarf. They had had no intimation that the meetings were illegal. The Duke of Wellington had stated, in the House of Lords, that he did not know whether these meetings were legal, and the late Lord Chancellor of England, one of the greatest lawyers of the day, had, in the same debate, stated that although the meetings were large, yet if the parties sought for constitutional objects only by legal and peacefbl means, there was no ground for considering them illegal.—(Hear, hear.) Now considering that the Lord Chancellor of Ireland had told the people of Ireland that they were to read the debates in Parlia ment, and be guided by them in their conduct, he I thought that opinion was a sufficient justification of their conduct. It was cruel of the Government, if they thought those meetings illegal, not to have stated so at once, in stead of entrapping men of peaceful habits into this vortex of agitation.—(Cheers.) He did not think the explanation with respect to the omission of names from the jury panel at all satisfactory. He acquitted the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Shaw) of all knowledge of the omission. He knew it would be foreign to his na ture to do anything so unfair, but he could not but re co'lect that Mr. Justice Perrin had said that the omis s as not free from suspicion. 111 1 F. SHAW—The facts had not then been stated. The O'CONOR DON believed that the case had been fully argued by counsel before Judge Perrin had stated, in giving judgment, that there had been gross neglect somewhere, and that the case was not free from suspicion. With respect to the striking off the names of the Roman Catholics, which had been justified by the Hon. and Gallant Member for Armagh, he would ask that Hon. Member whether, if, in 1829, the Govern ment had thought proper to institute a prosecution against persons connected with the Orange Associa tions, who met in large numbers to petition for the re peal of the Emancipation Act, he would have thought it fair in the Government to strike the name of every Protestant from the jury, and to try them by a jury composed exclusively of Roman Catholics ?—whe ther he would have thought it right for the Solicitor- General to state that he did not believe the Protestants were 'worthy to be believed on their oaths, and that therefore they must be struck off the panel? The Right Hon. Gentleman said peace had been established by the verdict. If he meant by that there had been no breach of the law, it should he recollected that there was no breach of the law before the prosecutions commenced.— (Cheers.) But the national mind had never been more disturbed than,it was at the present moment ; and he much feared that serious consequences might arise from the people being deprived of the opportunity of express pig their opinions. —(Hear hear.) Government might prevent an outbreak, but it could not enforce upon the people the performance of those social duties, the omission of which would produce immense evil. He firmly believed that no man abhorred the commis sion of crime more than Mr. O'Connell. He, in com mon with other Roman Catholics, felt a deep debt of gratitude to him, for to him were they mainly in debted for giving them a share in the Constitution. — (Hear, hear.) Ile thought they should feel indebted to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman for the discussion on the present motion. It was not very long ago that the Nob!e Lord, the Member for London, spoke of finality; it was only a few months ago that the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite said there was an end of concession; but yet, on the present occasion, they were rivalling one another in professions of anxiety to serve Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the Noble Lord in think ing that one of the first objects which it was imperative on the Government to effect was, to render the admi nistration of justice pure in Ireland. Confidence in the laws should be restored ; respect for the laws could only exist in sympathetic confidence between the governors and the governed. Within three months after the ar rival of Lord De Grey in Ireland, the number of memo rials from the three Roman Catholic provinces to the Exe cutive had diminished by half, whilst that of Protestant Ulster was increased three-fourths.—(Hear, hear.) He objected to the appointment of new stipendiary magis trates at present, but he objected to it because he knew that men would be appointed in whom the people had no confidence. Last night, the Solicitor-Ge neral challenged the Opposition to show a single instance in which a Catholic had not been appointed to a Government situation when he was equally eligible as a Protestant. He would instance one. In the county which he (the O'Conor Don) represented, a situation in the gift of the Crown had beCome vacant by the death of a Mr. Cummins. Himself and his colleague had ex erted themselves very much to procure the situation for Mr. Fitzgibbon, the Crown sessional prosecutor, who ' was a Roman Catholic, but a gentleman who had never interfered in politics, and who was most successful and eminent in his profession. He was a native of the county, and his talents were admitted, but the situation harbeen given to a gentleman from a distant county, and who was not a Roman Catholic.—(Hear, hear.) ',here was an instance, and he could mention another, but that he did not like to travel out of his own county. He thought the educational system ought to be ex tended, but before it could be productive of much bene fit, the people must be fed. Education and famine did not travel together. Agricultural societies would do much to improve the condition of the country. A society of this nature had been established in Ballinasloe by the Marquis of Clanricarde, which had been productive of very great benefit. He thought that endow ments should be legalised, whether made by Catholics or Protestants. Allusion had been made to the Landlord and Tenant Commission. He hoped that the Commis sion would shortly conclude its labours, as he feared very exaggerated opinions would be entertained re garding the results it would effect. Now, with respect to the elective franchise, he sincerely hoped that a Bill under the name of extending the Irish franchise might not in reality diminish it, and thus add to the griev ances of the country. Provision should be made in that Bill so as to enable the Roman Catholic clergy to vote at elections as pastors. It was very galling to them to see the Protestant clergy going to elections to rote against their interest, whilst that which had entitled them to qualify had been spent in the erection of chapels and administering to the temporal wants of their pa rishioners. Now, regarding the oath t a k en by R oman Catholics, the Noble Lord who had alluded to it (Lord Stanley) had done so in a very ungenerous and unjust manner. When that Noble Lord was on this side of the House and Captain Gordon attacked Roman Catholic Members, inie_h in the same strain that the Noble Lord had done, the Noble Lord reproved the Gallant officer; but it appeared that the consciences of Roman Catholic Members were to be measured by the baro meter of the Noble Lord's political feelings. The Hon. Gentleman then quoted from a speech of Sir Charles Wetherell, in which that Hon. and Learned Gentleman had expressed an opinion that Ro man Catholics were entitled to a vote on the ap propriation of Church property, as well as other Hon. Members, and all the casuists in Oxford, he said, could not prove the contrary. He was sorry to see the dis cussions that had taken place. Ireland was merely a battle field, and her real condition was not considered. Ireland was thought as little of by the contending par ties, as Waterloo had been by the rival armies. He wished that party spirit could be merged in the consi deration of what should be done for Ireland, and that Englishmen, Irishmen, and Scotchmen would cordially unite as subjects of the same Crown in the brotherly spirit of Christian charity, and with a noble and gener ous emulation, endeavour to promote the good of the three parts of the empire. He had no doubt that if they entered on the state of Ireland in the proper spirit, the condition of that country would be speedily im proved.—(Loud cheers from both sides of the House.). Sir WALTER JAMES expressed his most unquali fied approbation of the mild and Christian-like manner in which the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had delivered his sentiments. It was with much reluc tance he took a part in this prolonged debate ; but, re presenting as he did an English seaport town, he felt bound to express his opinions briefly. He thought that if Catholic Emancipation had been carried at the time of the union, they would not have experienced such diffi culty in the government of Ireland. Hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to try to prove that all the benefits which had been conferred upon Ireland, had emanated from the Whigs. Was it, he would ask, the Whigs who carried Catholic Emancipation ? No ; but they tried to filch that Conservative child from its parent, and mix it up with their vile democratic prejudices, and give it a Radical education.—(Laughter.) With respect to the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, he felt bound to say that it was not delivered at all in the same party spirit as that of the Noble Lord who opened the debate. He believed the Noble Lord to whom he first alluded had expressed his opinions and convictions with the utmost sincerity. It had been made a charge against her Majesty's Government that Ireland was at present in a state of military occupation. But what had this done to that country? Instead of harm it had done good, for the army had circulated a great deal of money there, and the best and most kindly feelings existed between them and the people. He thought the great cause of misery to Ireland was the total want of capital for the furtherance of public works; and if Government were to expend large sums in the construction of railways, they would be more than com• pensated by the increased prosperity of the Irish nation. Another great cause of the degraded state of Ireland, was that they were deserted by their absentee landlords, to whom they ought to look for advice and example, and left solely to the guidance of their priests, who fre quently used their influence for the most bigoted ends. He was so much attached to the principle of establish ments, as necessary to the well-being. of the country, that he would rather see the Roman Catholic religion established in Ireland than no religion at all. But who would ever venture on such an outrage as that to the people of England? He could not blind himself to the fact that there was great dislike amongst the Irish people to the Protestants ; but he believed that if the two religions in Ireland were to be placed on a footing of equality, it would only tend to increase religious ani mosities. Two stars could not exist in the same sphere, and two religions could not exist upon an equality in Ireland. He should not oppose an increase to the grant annually made to the College of Maynooth, and he would be glad to see the Government take up the propo sition of the Noble Lord the Member for Newark (Lord John Manners) with respect to the Mortmain laws. He was willing to support• any conciliatory measures for Ireland consistent with the maintenance of the Esta blished Church. He would give the people of Ireland civil equality and civil indulgences. He had no objec tion to the Roman Catholic bishops being allowed to have titles, but if such indulgence were granted to them, it should be given with the understanding that if the bishops engaged in any political agitation, they should mmediately be deprived of their titles. Mr. E. BULLER said that if any excuse were want ing for his then addressing the House, it would be found in the charge so often and so unjustly made against independent Members, of being indifferent as to the hap pinesss and prosperity of Ireland. With respect to the state of Ireland last year, he must say that, in his opinion, the Government had been justified in using every constitutional means to put a stop to such a state of things. He had no doubt that the extracts read from the speeches which were delivered upon the Opposition side of the House must convince the House that the whole weight of argument was against the Ministers. The agitation which arose was owing, either to the ne gligence ic o b f wGeorevesrnedmi ti e o n u t s, in or n t o b t ei s r up m p i r sc es b s b i d n u g et t i h n emeet ings,them up to a state o f sedition, which would make an excuse rearing for the employment o f mil i t ary force: With respect to the G o vernment for pr even ti ng i t. H e corn bellaomnetartfbemeeting, he could only say that he could not plained only of the manner in which the Government had chosen to prevent it. The Government ran an enormous risk of blood and slaughter.—(Cheers.) With respect to the trials, he would only say, that he did not think there was any intentional unfairness. He did not think that the unfairness was intended, but that there was unfairness, was clear upon the face of the whole proceed ngs.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said on the other side of the House, that the result of the trials had been to restore peace in Ireland.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He would appeal to the House whether the measures suggested, not proposed, by her Majesty's Go vernment would do much to tranquillise Ireland?— (Hear, hear.) Me wished they would. He wished that they would do all in tterk power to conciliate the two nations.—(Hear, and cheers.) He wished that something should be done to re-unite the people to an establishment, which was by force endowed with the wealth which their forefathers had given, and existed in its power only as an insult to the children of those who had endowed it.—(Cheers.) Could it be expected that the Irish people should be attached to the Esta blished Church nnder such circumstances? He believed that if they were willing to act with impartiality to the Catholic people of Ireland, and to make their ministers truly Christian ministers, apostles of peace, and sup porters of the lawful Government, they must admit the whole people of Ireland to equal rights with the people of England. As an Englishman he would accept no less—if he were an Irishman, he would ask no more.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. LASCELLES said he would not trespass for any length of time, but he was anxious briefly to state to the House the grounds on which he should give his vote, and the view he took of the motion of the Noble Lord, the Member for London. He could not vote for that mo tion. He could not forget that the Noble Lord him self, when in power, was not prepared to take the steps which he now required his successors to take for the government of Ireland—(Hear, hear)—and he could not but think that he suggested them now rather because he was in opposition than on account of their goodness and propriety. It had been asserted that Government maintained itself in power by raking up old passions, and administering to the prejudices of the Protestant party in Ireland. This he positively de nied. When they found how the Protestant popula tion of that country had been restrained under circum stances of great provocation, he thought it afforded undeniable evidence, not only Of the excellence of their intentions, but of the judicious and impartial course pursued by the Government. And he did think that it was most unjust to charge, as people did, the in discreet expressions of indiscreet individuals upon the Government itself.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the prosecutions, it was his opinion that if the Government sincerely wished to put down agitation they could take no other course than they had done. He was sorry that some of the speakers on behalf of the Government had not been more explicit in their statements. Do not let them deceive the people as to their views and intentions (Cheers)—but on the contrary, speak plainly and man fully to them ; tell them whatever their grievances may be, the Government will not attempt to remove t my a repeal of the union.—(Cheers.) It was said by the opponents of the Government, that they . might do what they would, but that such was the suspicion entertained of them by the Irish, that they could not usefully rule over that country. But he did not believe that asser tion, and he was satisfied that, were the Government re moved to-morrow, the same grievances would be raked up as now. Therefore, he could not join in the recrimi nations thrown upon the Government, but must discoun tenance and repudiate them by voting against the motion of the Noble Lord (Russell). There had been many occasions in which he could not join in the votes given by the party-he usually acted with. On the Mu nicipal Corporations Bill, for instance, he thought it his duty to give his vote with the then Government in order to remove the evils which it was proved had crept into those institutions. •But it was not what they did alone, but the spirit in which it was done.—(Cheers.) Take the Irish Registration Bill introduced some sessions back, to which at first he had given his support, After wards returns were ordered by the House, and by them he learned that the Bill of the Noble Lord (Stalls ley) would materially diminish the franchise ; he made up his mind that he would no longer support it. It was idle in those days to pin men down in their opinions, or fetter them too closely in their actions. He did not wish to trouble the House with his interpreta tion of the Catholic oath, but he must be permitted to express his regret that the Noble Lord (Stanley) had thought proper to allude to it.—(Hear, hear.) He could not agree that the Catholic Members banded to gether in that House for the purpose of injuring the Pro testant Church; on the contrary, they relinquished for the last two years the advantages their position gave them, for the purpose of pursuing their favourite sys tem of agitation. The great point now was what the Government proposed to do. He wished the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir R. Peel) would take the same course in regard to the Irish Church that he had done in regard to commerce ; and he particularly de sired that he would announce his intentions. If he would make from time in time in that Church the same steady and safe alterations and ameliorations as he had done in our commercial code, the difficulties new experienced in Ireland would soon begin gra dually to disappear.—(Hear, hear.) He did not taunt the late Government with not carrying the ap propriation clause into effect. The Noble Lord, when he found he could not carry it out, very wisely abandoned it. The Catholic question stood on quite dif ferent grounds from this motion, which involved a most unjust attack on the Government. Several Hon. Members here rose together, but the Speaker called on Mr. GISBORNE, who said he did not think that, after five nights' debate, the point was much farther advanced than it was at first. It was almost unavoidable that it should be so. In the speeches that had been made by members of the Government—and he did not under value their merit—they had claimed for themselves every good intention with regard to Ireland; they had laid claim to kindness and calmness in their general policy, and to fairness in their administration of justice, as well as impartiality in the distribution of the Govern ment patronage. These were their intentions. He found it universally stated by travellers and writers of all nations who had visited Ireland, that there was no nation in the world with whom a little kindness went so far as with the Irish people. As far as the ad• ministrative measures of the Government had gone it had laid claim to kindness, forbearance, and impar tiality. On the other side they had a grateful, a gene rous, and a confiding people; to that character of them the Recorder of Dublin had borne testimony. He would ask them whether they found in Ireland the national results of this combination ? They would expect under these circumstances to find Ireland in a state of peace and prosperity. They would expect to find the people living in confidence under such rulers. They would expect to find them enjoying all the blessings which a country could enjoy under a beneficent Govern ment. If this was not the case surely they must look on the Hon. Gentlemen opposite as the most unfortunate of men. Surely they were good men suffering under adversity, if all the good acts which it was their intention to have brought to bear on the Irish people, had failed. He saw in this fact a greater reason for supporting the motion of the Noble Lord than in any speech he had heard addressed to the House. If the Government had failed, having such good intentions, surely it was time for the House to ex amine if there was not something radically wrong in the system by which it was carried on. When the Go vernment succeeded to office, the first thing they did was to appoint to the judicial bench two fierce political par t;sans. Ile would say nothing with respect to their fo rensic position, or of the excellence of their pri vate character ; but this the Government could not deny, that for many years, in that House, they were violent partisans. Suppose Mr. O'Connell had been tried before Mr. Sergeant Jackson and Baron Lefroy, would any one have expected an impartial trial? With respect to their other appointments, the defence of the Government was this, that though they could have wished to have appointed Catholics to situa tions, the material did not exist ; among the Catho lics of Ireland there did not exist persons fit for these appointments. This was another calamity of the Go vernment, which was only demonstrative of the situa tion in which they were placed when they undertook the government of that country. It was precisely the same with other events. One calamity after another seemed to fall on this un happy Government. In the first place, when they de termined to try Mr. O'Connell, wishing to show the utmost fairness, they determined not to try him by the common panel, because that, they said, they could have packed. Now surely they might have tried him by the common panel without packing it. But perhaps it might be that the Government did not wish to establish such a precedent as that of trying a man for a political offence in Ireland, without packing the common jury; so they determined to put off the trial in order that they might have a fair jury. Here, again, calamity followed them. Without any fault on the part of the Recorder— without any neglect on his part—almost without any fault in any body, the virtuous intention of the Go vernment was again disappointed. By some' means or other a certain sheet of the list of the jury was lost, on which, as the Recorder of Dublin stated, almost all the names were those of Roman Catholics. But they could not see the extent of the misfortunes that fell on the Go vernment till they came to the striking off of 48 names from the jury list. When this imperfection of the panel was laid before the Lord Chief Justice, he said it was of no consequence. The law prescribed the strict mode in which a special jury panel should be formed in Ireland. This panel had not been formed in that manner, it had not been formed according to law, and yet the Chief Justice said it was a good one, at least, it was good enough to try these traversers by. When the forty eight names were drawn, the Government—its bowels yearning to give civil equality to the people of Ireland— caused a jury to be challenged, and that excellent person Mr. Kemmis struck off nine Catholics, of whom eight were Repealers, or contributors to the Repeal fund. But it so happened there was another Catholic on the list, unknown to Mr. Kemmis. Now, if they struck nine names out of forty-eight there would be thirty-nine re maining, and if there were any gentlemen in the House conversant with what were called the odds, they would see that it was thirty-eight to one. against Mr. Kemmis hitting on this Catholic. Mr. Kemmis had got him. He dived amongst the 39 names for the one Roman Catholic, not knowing that one was there, and he picked him out.—(Laughter.) Certainly this was one of the most singular coincidences he ever heard of. He had heard of persons " taking long odds" and never winning—(Laughter)—but here was Mr. Kemmis, at the very first draw, drawing the one Catholic.—(Laughter.) Mr. Kemmis must certainly possess very magnetic fingers.—(Laughter.) This was R a an g o t h h t e H r o o f n the .Gentleman calamities entlema n s a o the i d f he was mostGovernment.anxious Th to e n the have ae the trial conducted with great moderation, and he wrote a letter to the A ttorney-General for Ireland on that point, He was not going to say anything of certain occurrences which had been mentioned in that House, but the result did not correspond to the wish so strongly expressed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. The last misfortune of the Government was owing to the speech of the Learned Chief Justice, who certainly made a stronger speech for a conviction than the Attorney or Solicitor-General.-- (Hear, hear, and laughter.) No, though a conviction obtained in the way this had been obtained might gratify a few Orange partizans—though it might afford a triumph to some of their supporters—though it might enable them to imprison Mr. O'Connell with the other traversers, it would not produce peace to Ireland, nor would it obtain more respect for the law.----(Hear, hear.) He was sorry it was admitted on his side of the House that per sons were to be struck off the jury because they were Re pealers. It was admitted that seven-eighths of the piople of Ireland were Repealers, and therefore they must be struck out of the list upon all occasions like the present. It was said that a Repealer would fast himself to death rather than bring in a verdict for conviction ; but were there no persons on the other side who would fast theta selves to death rather than acquit?—(Hear, hear.) The proper course appeared to him to be to strike off known partisans on both sides.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, who was not in his place, said they were struck off by the Crown Solicitor as solicitor for his clients. They all knew what the duty of attorneys was towards their clients. It was to win by all means which the very questionable mo rality of the law left open to them.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Noble Lord was so possessed of the idea of winning, that he called the Clerk of the Crown the " clerk of the course."— (Laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman said that he believed one of the Roman Catholics who had been struck off to be a Repealer, because, though he swore in his affidavit that he was not a member of the Repeal Association, he did not swear that he was not a Re pealer. That appeared to him to be much the same as if a person was told "I saw you in Pall-mall to-day," and upon his making an affidavit that he was not there was told " Oh, but you were in Russell-square." He had not much confidence in the measures which the Go vernment would propose for Ireland. They reminded him of a passage which he had lately read in a letter of Crom well's. He wanted to get some law reforms, and he used these words—" There is mention in the last part of your instructions of your purpose to do many good things. I hope you will not be like the gentleman who made his last will, and set down a great number of men who were to receive benefits from him, and there was no sum at the latter end." So with regard to those measures of the Government, they seemed to have " no sum at the latter end."—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) I hey proposed to do many good things, and set down the names of the people of Ireland who were to receive benefits from them, but they had " no sum at the latter end."—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He looked upon the Landlord and Tenant Commission as all moonshine, and he was never more convinced of it than when he heard the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government giving his cordial approbation to what had been said by the Right Hon. Member for Rochdale, on the subject. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to have acquired on a sudden a very great re e wlbt s h p yhee e l %vi c tiseh t rßpre.e f o krGg i sn: eiti GISBORNE gnl h vßht e eHyton o ooßdH p une i Nto n d. thlno i Eia o t . oota n Gngs s b.ai reeti ea Gentleman,ienfht Gentleman. taamihGsit, that,. h e daan l H oal .wsatni a o nnhyni n tdGeo . onwoFnniheerte.lei Gentleman. He re collected on one occasion during the last session when d the Hon. Gentleman was speaking upon reLenonui fmdss one."—(Laughter.) s aeLtdtt o hns a m ihett uoehi egfisoemhehnrawstedttemsoorttr. subject,stage whispers and said that he agreed with another Hon. Gentleman. Sir R. PEEL—I did not say what you attribute to me. he firmly believed that they were the exact words used de clared its intention of upholding the Irish Church Esta bblaitsehmonenstindHe,is r for Marylebone had stated the other evening, in the de clare war, but he considered that this declaration on the part of the Government of maintaining the Irish Church Establishment, was equivalent to a declaration of war against Ireland, It was a great evil, which they could not deal with 'unless by abating it. He was convinced that there would be no peace in Ireland without the re- Moiial of the Church Establishment , The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite said that they should cherish it as the apple of their eye; but he would say, in Scriptural language, "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out." --(Cheers and laughter.) That was the mode in which they should deal with the Irish Church. He would make peace in thi> way—that no more bishops and deans should be created, and that, upon the death of every Irish bishop, a regiment should be withdrawn, and a battalion upon the death of every dean.—(Much laughter and cheering.) There would be then a simul taneous diminution in the army and the Church, which he had no doubt would contribute much to the pacifica tion of Ireland.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General, in his speech last night, said that there was a great deal of difference between fundamental laws and other laws. That he considered to be a most dangerous doctrine. One of the grounds of their con , stitutional security was That there was no limit in changing the laws of the Constitution. They had the pawer, if they pleased, with the concurrence of the three branches of the Legislature, of turning the monarchy into a republic.—(Hear.) That was their great safeguard, and when the nation wished for a change they would not be prevented from making it by any Act of Parliament which the Solicitor-General might consider fundamental. The real ground upon which he supported the motion was not owing to any misconduct in administration on the part of her Majesty's Go vernment, but because, in spite of the good intentions of the Government—in spite of their carrying them out fairly, and according to the spirit and principle of the law, he saw a s:ato of things established in Ireland which this House ought not to sanction ; and his second reason was, that he was convinced the measures which the Government proposed were too trifling to produce any benefical effect, because there was "no sum at the end of them"—(Cheers) —and he considered their de termination of maintaining the Protestant Church iu Ire land was tantamount to a permanent war against the Irish people. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said he quite agreed with the lion. Gentleman who had last spoken, that Hon. Gen tlemen opposite had made no progress in their attack upon her Majesty's Government, and he believed that his opinion would be sympathised in by the country at large.—(Hear, hear,\ and cheers.) It had been his lot, since he had been in Parliament, sometimes, but always with reluctance, to vote against her Majesty's Government ; but never did he remem ber to have given a vote more sincerely in their favour than he would now give in approval of the fairness and wisdom with which they had conducted the recent af fairs in Ireland.—(lronical cheers from the Opposition.) He did not care how long that debate might interrupt the business of the House, for he believed that the longer it continued the stronger would be the position which the Government would occupy in the opinion of this country. —(Hear, hear from the Ministerial benches.) The Right lion. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh had alluded to the question of the Irish Church. As an individual he would be content to limit the duration of the Irish Church to the period when Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House had agreed what they would do with it.—(Laughter.) Some Honourable Members in tended to transfer it to another party, others were for cutting it in two ; some were for paring it down, others for cutting it up.—(Laughter.) One Hon. Member pro posed, that at the demise of every bishop, they should remove a regiment, and of every dean, a battalion. — (Laughter.) One Hon. Gentleman had asked her Ma jesty's Government to look at the question at large, and in order to do so he most cautiously avoided entering into any detail himself.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, stated certain grounds on which he said the Established Church ought not to be rested. It ought not to be rested, he said, on quotations from Hansard, from old books, or from Acts of Parliament. He (Mr. S. O'Brien) quite agreed that unless they could make out a stronger case for the Established Church in Ireland than could be made from what Roman Catholic Bishops had said, they could not go to sea in such a boat. It was not ac cording to the spirit of our legislation to exact oaths from any class of persons ; and we had no knowledge ' of any ecclesiastical discipline by which Dr. Doyle, or any other Roman Catholic Bishop, was able in this matter to bind his successor.--(Hear, hear, from the Op position.) Unless they could put the case of the Church of Ireland upon higher grounds, they would make out a very bad case indeed. The question was, what should they substitute for the Church if they destroyed it, and could they hope to introduce a better state of things? The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay) had entered into a long, historical disquisition concerning Ireland, and he said that for 250 years the Church of Ireland had not fulfilled its mission. Now he protested strongly against the injustice of resting the case of the Irish Church on the period of 250 years; they must go back to the fifth cen tury—the introduction of Christianity into that country. Let them look also at the bearing of the middle of the 12th century upon the destinies of Ireland, when all the ills of Ireland, inherent dissensions, lawless passions, lust of unjust and ecclesiastical tyranny, combined together to produce, in unhappy union, the bull of Adrian, the in vasion of Henry, the landing of Strongbow, and the subjugation of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He would next speak on a subject which he considered had been almost untouched by any Hon. Gentleman on that side who had yet spoken in the course of the debate. He meant the real, practical, every-day grievances, sorrows, and deprivations of the poorer classes of the Irish people—and in speaking of the poor of Ireland, he begged to be understood as alluding to the frieze coats—not to the men of broad cloth. The first of those evils to which he would call attention, and which he had . witlessed in his part of Ire land—Clare and Limerick—was the poor-law. This evil consisted in the inequality of the rate as levied upon the poor collier and the consequent difficulty of collecting it. If one half the attention had been paid to the Irish poor- law which had been bestowed upon the Arms Bill —(Cheers from the Opposition)— by Hou. Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House—(Derisive cheers from the Ministerial benches)—much good would have been effected. The next - grievance of Ireland was the state of the medical charities there. That was a sub- ject which demanded their most earnest and immediate consideration. The third evil was the progress of the Board of Public Works which he was sorry to say had been curtailed; and lastly, the exactions under the name of tolls, to whitth the peasantry were subjected in bringing their commodities to market, closed the list of grievances which the poor of Ireland had to endure Those were evils which, from his own experience, he knew, to press heavily upon the frieze coats of Ireland. As for the miserable Whigs, the peasantry of Ireland cared nothing for them. The only way in which they (the Whigs) had interested the poor of Ireland, was by letting convicts out of prison, when they were in office. Their Lord Lieutenant had inflicted more mis chief on that country than any other individual that had ever held office there.—(Marked signs of disapprobation from the Opposition, which were accompanied by groans. The Marquis of Normanby was sitting at the time on the benches appropriated to Members of the House of Lards.) The conduct of that Viceroy showed that his sole object was to court a ridiculous, ostentatious, and fleeting popularity.—(Groans from the Opposition.) He had never known any man act so badly—so profli gately.—(Loud cries of" Oh, oh," from the Opposition.) Yes, but the best comment upon the policy of Lord Nor manby was the policy pursued by his successor Lord Fortescue. Did he follow his example ?—(Loud cries of " Question, question.") Hon. Members might cry ques tion, but what was the question ? The Noble Lord, the Member for London, might fancy, at the commencement of the debate, that he was forwat ding the interests of his party, but he thought that the opinions of the Noble Lord must now be changed—not merely from the sentiments expressed by Members on that side of - the House, but from the speeches made by his own supporters. The W hig ranks were com pletely divided and broken; they could unite upon nothing, and the only question they hoped to agree ' Upon was Ireland ; and if the Tories were turned out of office what could be expected from a Whig Govern ment ? Where were their principles? Where was their object?. :He professed he could see none. The Anti-Corn-law League—the Repealers—the Radicals— all these had principles and objects; but you wretched Whigs, flattering and coquetting, and gaining nothing for yourselves but contempt—you are objects of public deri sion.—(Laughter and ironical cheers from the Opposition.) You are like certain public characters who survive their reputations.—(Renewed laughter.) Mr. O'Connell had told thousands of the Irish people that the British Par liament they could not trust. He (Mr. O'Brien) would re-echo that sentiment, and if the Hon. Member for Cork inclined to quote the opinions of so humble an individual as himself, he was at perfect liberty to do so. Mr. O'Connell had told the Irish peo ple to trust to themselves—that sentiment, too, he (Mr. O'Brien) echoed. They might destroy the Church—they might overthrow the institutions of the country—but they wouldbe followed by a law stronger, wider, and more enduring than all the laws of men—a law which would tell the people of Ireland— and every people on th e earth, that it was with nations as with individuals, that _prosperity and happiness could be conferred by no law. 'Happiness could not be forced upon the people. The people of every rank and class must combine to teach -and practise order—to inculcate obedience to the laws, and to give a high tone to public feeling. If this happy union were effected, happiness would be achieved, but agi tation, however peaceful, would leave the nation where it found it—in discontent and disorder, Sir THOMAS WILDE wished to call the attention of the House to the real question before the House, which had been obscured by the risible speech of the Hon. Gentleman who preceded him. The motion of the Noble Lord was to form a Committee to consider the state of Ireland. Whoever had paid any attention to what had occurred in Ireland lately must know whether such a motion was fitted for the present occasion or not. He did not mean to say that Ireland presented any new state, but surely Ireland could not be suffered to continue in the same unfortunate condition in which it had been so long, and it was imperative on the British Parliament to give their most serious attention to the condition of that country. Among the complaints of the Irish people was one that the British Parliament were indifferent to their real complaints and distresses. He thought the attention that had been bestowed on the present debate by the House generally, and by the Right Hon. Gentle man at the head of her Majesty's Government in parti cular, must repel any complaint on this score. He thought it very wise and proper that the House should hear what Hon. Members had to impart regarding the condition of Ireland, and what remedies might be sug gested. When they considered the character of that country in respect to her soil and resources, and the many eminent and virtuous persons that it produced, it was truly lamentable to reflect on her present distressed state ; it was material to consider how that country could be governed in a proper manner. It might be said that the character of the people was pecu liar, but it was therefore the more necessary to suit the Government to their character. A Government which could not do that, was little worthy of support. Whether the present Government had done see he thought there could not. be be much doubt about it. The union had been proposed as s remedy for the grievances of Ireland. Had it ans wered that purpose ? And if it had not, was there much di culty in considering why it had failed ? Every thieK had been tried in governing Ireland by goo* faith an justice. The union had not been accomplished fn a i ,1,. most ner o afford satisfactio to the people. most t eminent patriots of n the time at which then union was carried denounced the measure as havieg ; been accomplished by fraud and by profligate meallh" Ireland had not received her fair share of the bargaill.;, Catholic Emancipation had not been granted unT.. 22 years after the union. It was not conceded until it could no longer be withheld with safety—ernancip atione like the, union, was, to a great extent, nominal—the tieau val.f of the Emancipation Actconsisted in its bein g p rat not carried out. If the Roman Cetho lics were nc:.. admitted to a full anticipation i n the priv '' leges and honours which the law conferred 117.1 them, the Emancipation Bill was a dead Both should be carried out in perfect pod fa": In consequence of this Ireland, instead of being a "Pk. adjunct to England, had been a constant source of. greatest anxiety and trouble to .her, and had been ne t s _ self in a state of perpetual uneasiness. It was rans t T at terial. consid. r'ng the period which had passed hyt t as t h e cm they should take a serious review of what were plaints which had been urged by the Irish people , ,a p os what were the causes which kept tor in that COD and the remedies which they proposed to aPPIY to e I s v e ' . , such long continuance. Ireland had been umier the Marg s o f ment of the political party who now held the l' ew „ - o w Government for a very long period, and what she Iva" - was the result of their management. They had a exception during the time of the Whigs,. ,u 7, Honourable Gentlemen opposite, having thisol°2t experience in the treatment of Ireland, ii6aris they not to have been able to devise . s e s° hen , means to remedy the ills of the country? '' t he the Whigs were in power, and likely to leave office' to ,. light lien. Baronet acknowledged that Ireland w°_„, be the great s:fficulty with which he would have to O wed tend. Full time aisd consideration had been besteio, upon the state of Ireland ; and the presen t Goverillto therefore were expected to be well prepare d to legi p. in the manner which the state of Ireland required. ,00e, two years had passed, and nothing had I;tehgel pit i er t t i v O l While in opposition, the Tory party was in their exertions to frustrate all attempts on the Whigs to ameliorate the condition of Irelana• tha t had been a complaint against the Whig s e ' re,t .. in they done so little for Ireland whilst they vi power. Now he would challenge any one to sho w they had power to do more than what they did' l e g their most anxious wish was to act upon th e Pr''-61cle which the Noble Lord avowed, and on the pobcY ;bat he announced in his speech, no one could deny r i a s had been taunted because of withdrawing the aPP r O as tion clause, but he would ask, was it withdrawn wa s matter of choice on the part of the Whigs, or oble it withdrawn because they found they were loanf to carry it, as they had been also unable to caril,„..fiag other objects, by the force of the Opposition? w"„jer that period, considering what had been the coarses sued by the Opposition, the Whigs had shown th e . fee teS feeling towards Ireland which they had. Ilu! ali and during the many years of her ierrow, apts ti ell ' o eiti distress. The first reasonable ground for the se°, oo te of any country was general confidence in th e Ge t eon' ment ; and could the Irish nation feel the slight° e i tan fidence in the present Administration? The reve r i s u deo the case. What were the taunts which were ° era against the Whigs when in power, but that the,/ T he making too many concessions to the Irish peopler.,,,sion cry of Hon. Gentlemen opposite tea.s that ee is ' er e) . --' had reached its utmost limits—(Hear, and e, p ' e d and that no further concessions could be grZ ll _l or °' safety to the interests of the Established Ch h ' the English nation. There was one thing w hie v*L e etili / sidered most extrordinary, and that was the 0 ,411 0 that the Whig Government had not done al l theY oat ts' to have done for Ireland. At least two of its in fro ° lented Members had alienated theinselvestacheas the party to which they were originally a t , seele merely because the then Whig Govern mei rs favourable to Ireland. And, unfortunately 700' land, the only two Members of the late W hi g I t GO' tration, who had been admitted into the Ares iii' tils vernment, were those two who had disp l %. tile most inveterate hatred against that country. " a ti e ltieg present Government was first formed, great ;wow prevailed to know how the Right Hon. 13arellee don; act towards Ireland ; and what had beet,aol ll .: during the two years he held office, and wha t ,,, - 0, 1 ". present state of. Ireland ? Why Ireland eel l i . l4 ot ' to be as she had been before, upon the very Yil,„""k s ioe civil war; and were they to be told after tals trio "' g the ledgment, that the Noble Lord was wrong ill at House to review the affairs of that countrYttly tee policy which had been acted on, and which Was 7, oo tri j continue with respect to the government of that euteotioll —(Hear, and cheers.) It had been said that th is but had been brought forward at a wrong time; had ill answer to that, he should say that any one whc' f vela ° , slightest knowledge of the popular history 0 . .. a wn" would acknowlege that there never ye t was earwg!, when a motion, such as the present, was brough,rubat sew the House, that it was not called ill-timed- sfi soti e° the common and constant mode in which sue" were met. Was Ireland in a state now that On t . OA to choose their own time ?—(Hear, g'ss s _, A ° - cheers.) Were they to wait until the stream na_,% so by? Did they not know Ireland was only in the 5w",,,, wa, that she had been for years before, and that 41 0 e- e vil . , s ; not the slightest prospect of a cessation of tb° s 'e e a The time to demand an investigation was w" .. , off' country was in such a state of agitation as it ni g i jt bl° The motion was a most constitutional and We t° r e one.—(Cheers.) The intent of the m otion was a te this House, and to ask the country, if the poliel ar by the present Government towards I reland that 015 proved of. He would not attempt to dent ' 4 motion implied censure upon the Government. roeitij aware that the motion would be lost by a larq o ele I 'lo, but still he felt sure it was the duty of the a nd, S'bf to bring conviction to Ireland, that her wantsf eree te" if in error, her errors, had been respectfully shoa l Parliament, and that the state of the count_ry se . ' o e bo be passed over in silence, but that the idl e t eat t se s consider and pronounce an opinion upon e s . u P t he Had they governed Ireland in such a mantl e ' with cure peace ? Was the fault with Ireland I f Goce;; Government ? If it was her fault, was Illt-teefas;s4 ment capable of applying any means to correZhat as to How long would they require to do so ? of time was supposed to furnish sufficient e f poll e t f o e the fitness or unfitness of any given cour a nt sale e s r r ese 9 Could they for ore moment believe that p; the p l oos did not show the cause which had produce , ' had s; 7 te e discontent? Did that course of policy which li n g b e ti e failed hitherto, present any prospect of ansW e se wa s for the future ? lie apprehended that tbeii,i, 9 5 000 ground whatever for it. The Government t he the persons said, that the Irish Church, was a c " Dr ed• d oe' of the unhappiness under which Ireland remedy then, why did they not propose a rern They thing less than the disease itself ? h. •It d to try g in various remedies for the IriAi Churcatlegoel been allowed to be an evil, and if i t were,Ore 00 continue how could they expect that reed 1)9 ea to other matters, which wholly P is tha t Plea Irish Church—how did they el ect long Ae l s" would result from measures that hart so wa t bei With the present condition of Ireland , CO he eto ; 1 011 to suppose that measures which bad hit s, o , o o o "' without any alteration of the circumstanc e eo W o re' more successful for the future ? There ' co t Gli e fi for this. He said, therefore, that the Pr e ' ~s o pes , tas ment were called upon to state how the,' tbe meet those difficulties. He, for one, th°loll°StO union between the two countries was ,_ ne a ce aeelar s .„ prosperity of both. The Government LI reSib they were ready for civil war rather lb all they .0 58 If this was the case heask how lenghey SLIPI ri° 4 would si d t , , s „ so maintain it ? What period of time WW l ' would Ireland remain in that condition?„,briatialli, eiele of time did they suppose that the ` - ' 0 t uebo e ellF wbants of Great Britain would contill_e o f in t o is ar? Ireland said, " Give us our due 00%610 in the Government. Do not keep the s il ta s, un sti e l t the condition in which it now is, so wh e tel i 11 , 3. the object of an Establishment. If you __ ax e e-_,., 0 0 6 cannot give us this—if you say that the 7 003 stances in the union which prevent you a e on r . us our just demands, Ireland has a riot,woo 1.0 1 of % 0 0" . repeal of the union." The union ougmerity exist than for the happiness and Po d s P to fori n e geln os , Ireland said this country had professe nership,—" You monopolise all thepe; o f our c ` i ; a d' o f us from all interference in the managem en t o give s ource We call upon you to do us justice - -- _ h ip s do 01 share Of authority—to make the partnerre_fitee to yoo e t r; happiness and prosperity to us. You t e or shiP to ea be and say, Rather than dissolve the par e 00 ,0 0 to _ h ready for civil war." He would defy and co de r s u ed on the contemplation of this subject lon g conclusion that civil war would last be y be circumstances. The English natiii"sat tecturiog as for its justice and its r e ligion. " E u rope sac be condition of England in the eyes out o f c lail° fit W ee , continuance of a civil war arising_ m att had be those urged by Ireland. Were these , se considered? Let them remember twat et P isT curred before from which the Ga T v e h r o nl ghibit i .lh il pew e e' might derive a useful le sson • she t ruf Ist e o ° ' p to ow th e e r d o is f so r l e u s t i i s o t n in o g f the claims as thrd:coritsv; mote, if not imrossible. But vosa Thep rcooifitio, respect to America ?—(Hear, hea r : ( 4 1 „....-thel te 004 at vernment could not hold a higher t e late t t s more despise their anticipations whYborovere.ol_ewneverf..da memberment of the empire, than t,l,i,! ...trar y, nt to ne r es t the time of the American ear. 'er the ie his wita their expectations --descending from Anleri o ft g; from their very heavy threatening, _ fol ly? v to er t n h m is ent country—lost ofthed ay w who would ot h ueid u n n (, i trte P as P kp Y eect r t e oT lf T r ;1 13 : 0 5 0:ei and what was now the tone with ___ n ted o f ,0 0 Why was Catholic Emancipation gr isy to tee t oa t i tio a he war —but at eilvtilw4ts.rset.Wnoulattlione.o. under the sanction of the Engl,i, u to o t i e pro d e seilouT. l 74o , ilts , would proclaim, and on account of that nation insisting 1 1 1 ) `" s . e nd , t p.„ tice of one nation overrunning.and 5 14 ,,31 . 1 i ts %Ig o t be ...10 0 pdricloancoht obfeleiservreyitnligatoEnnagwlaunrdinvvooruldd.erAlonibi:sislirosoot.s_rOlets which was inconsistent witht!int; r n : r,hilu n th oT u 0 0 b f rity of Ireland. Surely, therefore!. _ oh , ate _ ha t ? itself looked at the possibility t S u e on tenW late f ° I V/ should h th e ey the p o a a h lr e a t r the l s t am o e h State ,:st seri° " rti He therefore called upon the Gave h ui t t he coos t ate thong to , to consider the subject. He coun tr f f th' o'e r ' had done right in calling upon the. rest! te, t he d i n' what would, in all probability, he tn,% as s sni u he iog re al of things for which the GoverntriN'.e n niO 00101 prepared, rather than consent •fe:L a , , he re .s solved. lie did not apprehend- tt! .. t e " Iris h pvvi desire on the part a any portion bm tli " : 1 to 'id s t aPPIi trh • Uot ei 0" i the tedr rtie,,. 'lt r ge h 4 (4 it kt wa - 3 6011 red . P•e2 Ar --....