The Sun. — London, England, 1839-07-06 00:00:00

I I 1 Sir R. PEEL thought it would be advisable, under the circumstances to make this detour. Mr. GROTE presented three petitions in favour of the penny postage. DISTRESS IN IRELAND. Col. PERCEVAL wished to know whether the Government had done anything to relieve the misery which was experienced in the neighbourhood of New port, in the county of Mayo. He had in his hand a letter on this subject, a few lines of which he would read to the House. Th e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was understood to say that the less discussion there was on this subject the better. He would suggest that the better plan would be to lay the letter before the Gnvernment. Colonel PERCEVAL said there were many families living on one meal a day, and that of potatoes of the worst description. EVENING EDITION. , an,l in t;,at. B:il :,here ci,inse :tripowering the City to raise money upon tiie security of certain funds. Mie Bill lid escaped his obervation till one of the last stagps, trlien a doubt sug;ested itself whether its pro visions would not interfere with the power of the Trea sury.regarding the object contemplated by the Commit tee. Till this doubt was set at rest, and till it was as certained whether the funds would be amply sufficient for that object, the Government could not pledge itself to any course. Mr. H. HINDE was glad to hear this explanation, and expressed a hope that the taxes to be imposed for this object would not be continued longer than nece,sary. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re plied that they would not be continued (we believe) linger than to 1858. Colonel SIBTHORP wished to know whether he could bring on the question of the reduction of the fire insurance duty. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Gallant Colonel would have an opportunity in Committee on Ways and Means. SEWERS. Mr. SLANEY vvir.lied to ask his Right Hon. Friend if it was his intention to include i❑ the re commendation to the Board of Works any measure for the sewerage and drainage of the metropolis. This was a measure of the utmost importance to the health and comfort of the poorer inhabitants, and was a subject well worthy of attention. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the improvement of the sewers was a matter of very great importance, but the attention of the Com mittee 'had been specially directed to one object, and had no connection with the management of the sewers. Mr. SLANEY said the Committee had distinctly stated, that if the improvement which they had recom mended in the buildings of the metropolis were to be made, it would have the effect of producing a great improvement in the sewerage and drainage. MONOPOLY OF PAPER. Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the paper manufacturers of Lancashire to which he wished to draw the attention of the House. The petitioners stated that they had understood that it had been a recommendation of the Postsge Committee, with reference to Mr. Rowland Hill's plan, that a monopoly of the manufacturing of the paper intended to be used for stamped envelopes should be given to one manufactu rer, in order to prevent frauds being practiced on the reve nue. They expressed a hope that it was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to give a monopoly of the manufacture of this paper to Mr. Dickenson, and that the House would not sanction any plan for the esta blishment of a penny postage which should place in the hands of any single individual a monopoly of the manufacture of paper, but that the supply should be left open to tender. SUMMARY JURISDICTION BILL. Sir E. WILMOT wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Home De partment if it was the intention of the Government to Proceed with the Summary Jurisdiction Bill during the present Session ? If it were not, he wished they would embody one of the clauses of that Bill in a short Bill, so as to have it passed into law during the present Session, he meant that clause which enabled Sheriffs to carry prisoners from one gaol to another through another county. The public were aware that there had yesterday been riots in Birmingham, and that it had been the inten tion of the rioters to attack the gaols and public offices. Now it would be necessary, this day, to bring forty prisoners from Birmingham to Warwick, and they would have to go through a part of the county of Wor cester on their journey. The consequence would be they would no longer be in the legal custody of the Sheriff, and he would be liable to an escape. It was to be hoped that the rioters had not attacked the van this morning in its passage through Worcestershire, but if they had, and set the prisoners at liberty, there would be no legal redress. He hoped, therefore, that a Bill to remedy this incon venience would be introduced this Session. Mr. FOX MAULE said it was the intention of the Government t o p rocee d w i t h t h e measure alluded to, but if they should be unable to do so, the suggestion of the Hon. Baronet was worthy of consideration. Sir H. PEEL asked if the necessity of passing through the county of Worcester could not be obviated by making a detour? Sir E. WILMOT said it might, but it must be a detour of ten miles. Mr. O'CoN NELL said it was impossible that any discussion would increase the misery which prevailed on the western coast of Ireland. The misery was becom ing so oppressive that it was absolutely necessary some steps should be taken without the least delay. Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had received simi lar accounts from the south-western parts of Ireland, I where the distress was most appalling. At Bantry 13,000 were in a state bordering on starvation, out of a population of 7,000. BUDGET,—POST OFFICE ACTS. The House naving resolved itself into Committee on the Post Office Acts, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose and said—" Sir, I cannot proceed with the obser vations I may have to make without expressing my earnest hope that I may meet with great indulgence on the part of the House ; and I must say, I express that hope with confidence, because in preceding Sessions I have met with the greatest indulgence and the utmost attention. I wish to explain to the House the course I propose to take. The resolution I am about to propose is a resolution of the greatest possible importance, as 1 shall en deavour to show, to some of the highest and the best interests of the country, but it is also of importance in a financial point of view ; and, therefore, I thought it was right that the House should be aware of the actual financial condition of the country before they attempted to decide on the other proposition. Therefore, the ob servations I shall deem it my duty to address to the House will naturally divide themselves into two branches ; the first, an exposition of the existing state of the finances ; the other an explanation of the proposition which I have to make, a recital of the authority to be found, a state ment of the consequences to which I think it is likely to lead, and a recommendation on the part of the Go vernment to the House, that, coupled with the con ditions with which I hold it insuperably united, the House should undertake the consideration of this question. Sir, I shall now proceed to the first part of the subject, namely the state of the present finances of the country. I cannot approach that subject without calling the at tention of the House to the new position in which, to a certain extent, the House and the Government have, of late, and more especially in the present year, placed themselves. Upon former occasions undoubtedly, whether inCommittees of Supply or with respect to the expenditure . of the country, until later times it was the duty of the individual who had to explain the subject, to show that he had used all possible economy—to show that he lied cut down every estab6ishment to the utmost, and, in fact, that he had met every possible objection t hat was likely to be urged on the part of the Representatives of the people. Sir, I must remind the House, more esp. cially in the course of the present Session, I am not speaking it as matter of reproach, but I am detailing it as matter of history, that the relative position of the two parties in this House has changed. We have not gone into Com mittee of Supply, without being threatened with amend silents, not for the purpose of reducing establish nients, but of increasing them. If we go into a Committee on the Navy Estimates, we are told that the Navy is unfit to represent the people of England, and that the Government would be forgetful of their duty if they did not greatly add to that esta blishment. So with respect to the marine half pay, and other subjects. In every branch of the service we are met at every turn and in every circumstance with complaints that ese do not go, with respect to expenditure, far enough, and every disposition is shown on the part of the House to go much further in the expenditure than the Government are disposed to do. So, with respect to the miscellaneous fund. In fact there is scarcely a single public or privat e claim that is put forward, that does not at once find an able, efficient, and. I regret to say, sometimes a successful, advocate to compel the Government to agre e to money votes which they never thought of. Even, Sir, the altera tions which are made in our laws. alterations produc tive of great improvement, are attended with consider able expense. The system adopted, and wisely and efficiently adopted, with a view of improving many o f E our most valuable institutions, while it effects an i m .. prevement and saving to the local public, has cast I upon the general public, as represented in this House, increased expenditure. For instance, I am not disposed to undervalue, on the contrary from my con nexion with the Government who have carried that question, I value the Poor-laws, but those ilaws whilst they have saved to the counties and the agri culturists, very considerable sums have entailed upon the public, as I see by the estimates, a sum of no less than 73,0001. In like manner this House was besieged with Ipetitions, to give to the community at large, a nd more es- I secially to the Dissenting portion of thecommunity, a good : l ittera of registration. Well, a system has been devised le h ich has gained the assent cf . both Houses of Parlia ment. I presume, and believe, that the system is a good one, but again, while the benefit has been conferred 1 upon t.he public it has to be paid for, and it appears on the estimates in the shape of a sum of 20,0001. in like manner the Tithe Composition Act costs the country 82,0004 a year ; the factory inspectors 8,0001. a year ; iG,peetors of prisers 5,6001. ; and many other charges of such a nature which were only introduced in later years, while the burden to the public has been very large, and for which the II :use has considered the Ways and Means is hound to supply the finds. In like manner there were many other matters of a pressing character which the Government has been called on to undertake. There is the great system of steam communication throughout the world—the steam communication with India, which costs the country 100,0001. a-year, and to which the public contribute 50,0001. There have been also many measures of benevolence and charity undertaken of late years—there is the interest upon the West Indian Loan for the emancipation of the negroes—the grant for the education of the Degrees in the West Indies, which the Government has taken up, and also the education of the people of this country, which the Government has most properly under taken. You have voted large sums for these pur poses of benevolence and improvement. You make improvements sshich, while they confer great benefit on the public, are also a large expense to the State. For instance, the communication which is the subject I have now to refer to—the com munication of letters. You have now a railroad communication open thronghout a great part of the country, and of course the corresponding public has the right to the full benefit of such commu nication. The Government is bound to give it, and the public will not be satisfied without it ; but it costs you a very large sum, and on one single line of commu nication—one branch of the service—l had an oppor tunity lately of comparing the expense with thet previously incurred before the introduction of rail roads to that which is now incurred for Post-office communication, and I find the former sum of 7,0001. increased by the sum of 30,0004 in order to give the public- the benefit of railroad communication. The railroad system is better and more efficient ; I do not complain of it ; but I am only showing the various causes in modern times which have compelled the Go vernment to increase the expenditure of the country. The consequence of many of these causes, and more especially, and I may also add, the sense of duty on the part of Government itself, has red, in the present year, to a great increase in the estimates, and to that in the first instance, I wish to call the attention of the House. The estimates for the Army in the year 1838 were 6,322,0001., while the estimates in the present year are 6,563,000/. The esti mates for the Navy in the former year were 4,811,0004, and for the present year 5,197,000/. The estimate for the Ordnance in the former year was 1,546,0004, and in the present year 1,732,000/. In short, Sir, of the three great branches of the public service, there is an increase of 812,0001. on the esti mates of the year, without taking into account any ex traordinary expenditure for Canada. The increased charge for the year is on the whole 919,220/. What is my object in stating these things? I wish to bring practically before the House, when they view the general state of , the finances of the country, that which they are very apt to forget, that if we are disposed to sanction an in crease of expenditure, we must not afterwards quar rel with the individual whose duty it is to ask the House to provide for such additional expenditure. Sir, I shall now proceed to compare my statements, in the Budget of last year, with the actual results of the in come and expenditure of this year, and then I shall proceed to my estimate for the year, as to which we have now to provide ;- abstracting at present, from my consideration, the extra charges for Canada, which I reserve for a subsequent reference, ex cept when a passing allusion may be necessary. Last year I stated my calculation of the income from the Customs to be 20,795,0004, whereas it has amounted to 21,210,000/. The Excise I calculated last year at 13,902,000/., it has fallen short of that estimate, having amounted only to 13,729,0001. I ap prehended that I should have calculated rightly in taking the average for the two preceding years, when I should have been within a few thousands had I taken the average of the three preceding years. The calculation as to the Stamp Duties has been singularly verified. I calc \ ulated that they would produce 7,000,0004 ; they have produced 7,043,000/. Taxes I calculated at 3,654.000/. ; they have produced 3,700,000/. The Post-office I calculated at 1,683,000/. ; the produce has been 1,674,0001. Miscellaneous, I calculated at 279,0001. ; the result has been 474,000/. ; but that was not so much an excess of receipt, as of repayment, referring to Ca nada. The whole estimate was 47,271,000/. ; the re ceipt has been 47,833,000/. Upon the general estimate, of this magnitude, I do think the House will consider that a closer approximation could scarcely have been made, especially as this 611,000/. was an increase of the receipts.—( Hear, hear.) An HON. MEMBER was understood to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman what the state of the corn duties was. The CHANCELLOR of EXCHEQUER—I am glad the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, has asked a question in reference to the state of the duties on corn, because a most singular misappre hension has prevailed, and been circulated through out the public on that subject. If it had not been for the present state of the Corn-laws, which diminishes the amount of duty, instead of the many difficulties I have now to contend with, I should have had a very different state of finance to explain. I shall be able to tell exactly the difference of the corn receipts in the two years I have compared, which, I believe, is the object the Right Honourable Gentleman has in view, and those years were 1837 and 1838. The duties upon foreign corn, received in 1837, amounted to 306,8601. In the course of the last year they amounted to 146,0001 ; so that if it had not been for the circumstance to which gentle• men have attributed a large increase of the public reve- nue, there would have been a much greater revenue. ;hough it is just the reverse of what - gentlemen have bought ; but I shall advert to this again hereafter. I have shown the excess of the receipt to have been 611,3151. above the estimate of last year ; but I wish I could, on that account, state that the result was satisfactory. I regret to state that the result is not as satisfactory as I could have wished, be cause whilst the income of the country has exceeded my previous anticipation, the expenditure of the country has exceeded my estimate in a much larger proportion. That expenditure has exceeded my expectations by reason •f the events in British North America mainly ; but there are other circumstances connected with the state of the country which have also added to it. I shall proceed now to compare my estimate of the expenditure with the actual expenditure, as I coin pare my estimate of receipts with the actual receipts. The interest of the public debt, funded and unfunded, was 29,350,000/. The expenditure exceeded that amount by a small sum, being 29,427,000/. The charge upon the Consolidated Fund was estimated at 2,400,000/. They amounted to 2,383,000/. The expense of the Army is that upon which the main increase has taken place ; from reasons which I shall afterwards explain it is put down to the Army, but covers a considerable branch of the expenditure which h:is been applied to other purposes. The Army vote was 6,322,000/. That was my estimate of last year. The expenditure has amounted to the sum of 7,201,000/, the cause of which I will explain as I pa-s on ; lam dealing with the figures now. The Navy Estimates amounted to 4,811,009/., and the expenditure to 4,690,0001. The estimate of the Ordnance was 1,546,0001., •and the expenditure 1,881,000/. Therefore these three branches of the service, the great services, would have stood thus :—Es timate, 15,226,9871.: Expenditure, 15,952,266/. The whole estimated expenditure was 47,477,000, _ . and the actual expenditure, 48,263,000/., showing an excess of expenditure of 785,556. Now, Sir, if there be any gentleman who will do me the honour of recollecting a statement which I had ,he honour of making, will bear in mind that my statement of last year showed an apparent defi ciency of 216,0001. The actual deficiency produced by the excess of expenditure on the sth of April, in place of being 216,0001., amounted to 430,0001. That is a difference of 224,000/.—(Sir Robert Peel here made an observation across the table, which did not reach us.) —That is according to the balance sheet of April. Perhaps I may have made a mistake, but the balance sheet of April, according to my anti cipation, would have shown a balance of 206,0001. That anticipation was formed without taking into ac count the extraordinary circumstances that have arisen in the course of the last year in Canada, to which I shall call the attention of the House hereafter ; and it is not a very unpardonable fault that in the statement of the income as well as the ex penditure, there is a difference between the anticipation made twelve months back, and the result, as now shown, of no greater than 200,000/.—(Hear, hear.)—l cer tainly had feared the discrepancy would have been much more, and I am gratified at finding it is so little. Sir, before I go into the causes of this increased expenditure I may be allowed to say a very few words on the subject of the income. I shall not trouble the House with details of the lesser branches of revenue, but Honourable Members will expect from me some account of the great branches of the revenue during the last year in order to guide them in their calcula tions. I hold in my band a return from the Customs, giving an account of the increase of the last year as compared with the year preceding, and I find that in the greater part of the importations—in many of the must important of them—the increase has been, if not very great, at least steady and progres sive. In the articles of sheeps' wool, cotton wool, timber, wines, (except French wines, on which there is a prohibitory duty, tobacco, tea, sugar, oil, and in many branches of spices, the increase has been in some cases 3,4, 5,6, and 7 per cent. And I may be al lowed to say, that in cotton wool the result is twenty two per cent. ; in sheeps' wool it is thirty-one per cent.—(Hear, hear.) The various ratios of increase are on paper before me ; but I do not wish at the pre sent time to detain the House by going into them. On the other hand, in some of the Customs Duties there has been a decrease. They are not articles of great importance, nor is the decrease to any great extent ; one is the article of raw thrown silk, upon which there has been a reduction of about one-third per cent. On tallow there has been a reduction of 9 per cent. Toe receipts for the last year have been most satisfac tory to the public generally. With respect to the Excise, in many of the most essential parts of the Excise, there is a considerable increase shown in this year, and where there is a diminution it is particularly to be attributed to the seasons. For instance, there is a diminution in hops of 15 per cent., and there is a diminution in malt of five per cent. ; there is also a diminution in bricks to a cer tain extent ; in those branches of the glass trade in which there has been no reduction of duty, there is a small diminution ; in glass, especially in that branch of the trade in which some 3 ears ago I had the honour of pro- posing a reduction of the duty, in place of a fall there has been a considerable increase—a progressive increase. There is some falling off on crown glass, but in plate glass there has been a very considerable increase. That accounts in some measure for the decrease on the others ; for no person can go through London without observing that one of the increased luxuries of the times is the increased use of plate glass : where there has been a diminution in one branch of that trade, there has been an increase in the other. In plate glass there has been an increase of 1.5 per cent., in other glass there has been an increase of 6 per cent. ; and there has been an increase of 10 per cent. on the duties on paper, in the course of this year, as compared with the average of the three preceding years. On soap there has been an increase—on spirits there has been an increase ; in short, I think there is nothing in the state of the Excise revenue, although the total amount has been less than that at which I estimated it, that can tor a moment create any distrust in the country. The cause of the diminutions that have taken place is, as I have already stated, to be attributed to the sea sons. I shall pass over this point, as I may have occa sion to advert to it on another occasion. The Post office has not produced quite so much as I had antici pated, but the reason was that the parties at the Trea sury have been straining every possible nerve to increase the facilities of communication to the public.—( Hear, hear.) That of course, as I observed with respect to railroads, has been an increased charge on the public, although the revenue has not proportionably decreased. Sir, I hold in my hand an example of the increase in the Post-office revenue contemporaneously with these increased charges, and as a proof that the revenue is increasing, 1 shall show the House the revenue for the quarter ending the sth of April, and I . - wish the House to bear this in mind when it comes to discuss the resolution which I shall have the honour to propose. The return which I hold in my hand is divided, but under the different heads of Post-office revenue upon unpaid letters outward and paid inwards, upon a sum of 120,0001. there is an increase of 9,000/. upon unpaid letters inwards, paid outwards, upon 114,0001. there is an increase of 12,000:. In bye and cross-road letters, upon the sum of 167,000/., there is an increase of 7,0001., Upon the gross revenue of Scotland, amount ing to 52,0001. there is an increase of 4,700/. Upon the gross revenue of Ireland of 62,0001. there is an increase of 2,400/. Upon the second post, amounting to 3,2001. there is an increase of 2,8001. Upon the West Indian and British North American Colonies, upon 18,000/. there is an increase of 1,400/. In the foreign let- ters and money received at the Foreign-office window, upon a sum of 19,000/. there is an increase of 2,100/., and under the Miscellaneous head there is an increase of 916/. Therefcre, upon the total amount of 558,000/. there is an increase upon that quarter of 43,3821., being about 9 per cent. ; for I have not calculated it. So much fur the observations which have been made upon the question of a gradual falling off in the Post-office reve nue, and it will show the House that where the nett revenue falls off in postage it is in consequence of the enormously increased expenditure to which the Post-office has been put in affording increased accommodation to the public. The increased charge, appear upon the head of the Army, but it is but justice to my Noble Friend at the head of the War Office to state that the great propor tion of the whole of this almost entirely refers to the extraordinary expenses that have been incurred in Canada. I shall show that just now ; but if I am allowed, in order to make the statement intelligible to gentlemen who are not conversant with the mode of doing business, I should wish to explain the manner in which this extra charge is put to the Army account. Suppose it becomes neces sary in Canada to equip a steam-boat upon one of the lakes, and that the Governor, upon his re sponsibility in a moment of exigency, directs that to take place—l am merely taking this as an example— he directs an issue out of the military chest, to defray that service. A bill is drawn by the officer having charge of the Commissariat upon the military chest. The outlay which he has made, whether ultimately upon an adjustment of the accounts, it belongs to one service or the other, must necessarily, in the first in stance, be a charge as against the military expenditure, the Commissariat having made the original advance, It is only when the Commissariat accounts conic home, and that they are revised and the accounts adjusted, that means are affording of settling the apportionment of these charges in a strictly correct manner. Now, Sir, the expense which has been incurred in Canada, I shall en deavour to bring under the consideration of the House in a clear and distinct manner, concealing nothing, keeping no thing back, not lowering the anticipation of future expense. in the slightest degree, but giving an estimate of the ex pected expenses from the best authority we can com mand. I shall give th e m aximum of the expense to which, under any cir cums t ances , up to April 1840, this country can be subjected. Sir, we have not full and com plete accounts from Canada to a later period than March 31, 1838 ; we have the complete and general accounts of the Ordnance to a later period, but we have not the Commissariat accounts in order to apportion the ex pense. That was one principal reason why I delayed my statement so long, as I wished to be quite clear upon the head of Canada, and the accounts only arrived within these last three days. The extra expenditure for Canada from the commencement—the extra expen diture for 1837 and 1838, was 245,012/. ; the extra ex penditure for the following year was 701,400/., making a total of 947,000/., up to April, 1839. That sum com prises, I believe, every portion of extra expenditure which has been incurred ; it does so to the best of the information which we have. Towards that a vote was taken of 500,000/. ; if, therefore, you deduct that sum from 947,000/., it leaves to be provided for the sum of 447,000/. That disposes of the two years preceding the present—that is it provides for all extra expenditure up to April, 1839. Now, Sir, I come to the probable ex penditure for the present year for Canada. The total estimate of the expenditure for the Canadas, and in cluding some for some of the other provinces, every thing that can possibly be wanted, is included in the estimate ; and it is 1,101,000/. ; that is from April, 1839 to April 1840. That is the whole amount of the estimate, and there are 'some items in it which have not yet been sanctioned— that is the maximum to which the expenditure can ar rive. There has already been provided upon that, the sum of 594,000/. and we are now dealing v.ith the amount of extraordinary expenditure which is to be pro vided for; and if gentlemen will add that to the two previous years' extraordinary expenditure, they will find the total extraordinary expenditure of Canada, to be 1,530,0001. The amount the House is now called upon to deal with, viz., the amount over and above the vote of 594,0001. which I exciude,is 1,530,000/. Undoubtedly this is a very large sum, and it is to be regretted. It is not my duty at present to enter into a discussion here, of the Canadian policy, but I apprehend I shall have the assent of every one present that in regard to the state of Canada, both with respect to foreign aggression as well as its internal tranquillity, to the fact, that the Government would have been guilty of neglect of their duty if in any part of the services which appeared to Sir John Colborne and the other authorities there to have required increasing, we had not supplied the ne- cessary means. The House well knows what the fron tier is there. It well knows bow that frontier was ex- posed, and Hon. Members will feel that the Govern ment have only done properly in doing that which was necessary for its defence. Give up your colony if you are not prepared to defend it ; but if you are prepared to maintain it, adopt the most adequate means for its maintenance. Now, I will state what the extent of the Establishment is in Canada, and what are its provisions. I have not the whole here ; but I have what will enable the House to form a pretty accurate notion. The Horse Guards returns, which do not comprehend the Ordnance, show, in 1835, that the whole of the British North American forces were 4,611 ; and that is the ordinary force returned to me for the subsequent three years. In January, 1838, it rose to 5,089 ; in April. to 7,490 ; and in January, 1839, the amount was 13,215 regulars, without including artillery ; of which I have not the returns before me. In addition to this, there were the irregular forces. In Upper Canada, the " Sedentary Militia" amounted to 21,000, and the volunteers to 3,675 ; and in Lower Canada (we believe) the Local Militia amounted to 8,228. To that, in addition to the increase of the regular forces, there were 33,069 irregular troops kept up in Canada.--(Hear, hear, from Mr. Hume.) I hope that the House will not be diverted by the cheer of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, from that which is now before us—a mere matter of finance— to political considerations.—(Hear, hear.) There has been this large increase, both in the regular and the irregular forces, which of course will create a corresponding increase in the estimates. In addition to this, there have been the expenses of transports, arms, and accoutrements, &c., &c., all comprehended in this additional expenditure.—(Mr. Goulburn, " Have you the returns ?") Those conversant with military matters well know that extraordinary ex pences of this deicription are much more difficult to calculate than the ordinary estimates : but anything the Treasury can furnish shall he produced. In refe rence, Sir, to the great increase upon Canada, there is a very consolatory contrast afforded by the state of 'lre land. When one looks back to the troubled times in that country, we find that in 1797 there were 78,000 men under arms, at an expense of 2,600,000/. In 1798 THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JULY 6, 1839 there were 91,000 at an expense of 3,900,0001. In 1799 there were 114,000, at an expense of 4,170,0001. In 1800, there were 53,000 men. In 1810, 35,000 men ; in 1820, 20,090 ; and in 1839, on the the Ist of January, 16,347 ; and on the 15th June, there were but 10,000 ; a number less than was ever known hp fore in Ireland.----( Hear, hear, hear.) It hats been that state o f - Ireland which has enabled the Government to afford the expenditure for Canada. If we had required 35,000 men for Ireland, as we did in 1810, you could not have increased the Canadian es tablishment to its present amount of 12,000. Sir, I have endeavoured to show the comparison between the estimated amount of income and expenditure of last year with the actual amount. Now I shall proceed by anti. cipation to state the income and expenditure of the next year. I have already shown to the House that on the estimates there is an increase of 919,000/. The esti mate of Customs, returned to me by the parties, and which I have the most perfect reason to trust to as being correct, testing it with the anticipations of previous years, is 21,500,0001. The income of the Excise, taken upon the average of the last three years, which, as I told the Committee would bring me within a few thousands of the actual receipts of last year, will be 13,845,000/. The income on stamps I take at 7,054,000/. Taxes, 3,694,000/. ; Post•office, 1,583,000/. ; Miscellaneous, 250,000/. ; to which is to be added, Crown Lands, 200,0001.—making a total of income of 48,128,0001. Now, Sir, I wish to say a word on the subject of the Crown Land Revenue, because the House has a right to expect an explanation upon this subject, if any Hon. Gentleman participates in the misapprehensions and mistakes made in respect to it out of the walls of this House. It has been suggested that the Government bring, under the colour of Crown Land Revenue, not revenue or income, but principal arising out of the sale of Crown Lands. Why, Sir, if we did any such thing without stating that to the House and explaining it, we sho'uld be guilty of a fraud upon the public. It is no such thing---the whole amount of the Crown Land Revenue that is brought to the public credit is that which arises out of the income of the Crown Lands, and as some Hon. Gentlemen may say, why does it now appear when it has not previously appeared? I will observe it did not previously appear, because it was mortgaged tor a very considerable debt for public improvements ; and on the paying off of that debt, it becomes a matter of revenue, and is now brought into the account. If there is any Hon. Member not satisfied with this state ment, I wish he would renew the subject, and show me in what way he misapprehends or misconceives it, be cause after this misapprehension has been cleared up here, there has been a suggestion made that the public accounts were mystified, for the purpose of lead ing them astray. Now I come to the expendi ture for the next year. The interest on the debt and Exchequer Bills amount to 29,000,000/. The charges on the Consolidated Fund I take at the same amount as I did last year, 2,400,000/. The Army at 6.563,000/. ; the Navy 5,197,000/. ; the Ordnance. 1,782,000/. ; the Miscellaneous 2,652,000/., making a total expenditure of 47,988,000/., or showing a surplus on that account, which I am sorry to say is but very small, of 140,000/. That makes provision for all that is included in the 900,000/. of increased estimates, but it does not make any provision for the 1,000,000/. comprehending the unprovided estimates for Canada—not covered either by the ordinary vote, or covered by the vote of 900,000/. Uundoubtedly this is not a state of things which can be considered as satisfactory ; and if I considered that those extra ex penses in Canada were of a permanent character, it would be my duty to come down to this House and propose an increase of the permanent income of the country, by the introduction of taxes, so as to meet that expense. But in the first place, the House will recollect that this 1,000,000/. does not apply itself wholly to the services of the present year, but that, about 500,000/., is arrears for services unprovided for in the two antecedent years. The House will also have the goodness to recollect that the whole of this extra expenditure is not an expenditure which we can contemplate as part of the permanent charge on this country. God forbid that Canada should continue in its present state, and God grant that we may see the time when these expenses will be reduced. If these expenses have been increased by reason of occurrences of a temporary nature. I do not think that I am called upon, or that it would be prudent or likely that I should ask the House to incur the responsibility of voting a permanent tax, and therefore, I intend to propose—which I shall do when I lay on the table of the House any account of this ex penditure it may call for—l propose to provide for that by a vote of Exchequer Bills, or a vote of credit, that may sustain that amount. I shall not now go into the arguments on that point, because I don't mean to ask the opinion of the House upon that at present. I cannot leave this part of the subject, without stating that whilst there are some matters in the recital I have made I admit that are not satisfactory, yet there are considerations involved in them which the House will do well to turn its attention to. This time twelve months the balance sheet was 1,428,0001. On the 10th of October it was reduced to 795,000/. ; and on the sth of April, 1839, it was reduced to 430.0001. Un doubtedly, therefore, there was every reason to think, if there were not violent disturbances to interrupt the industry of the country, that the cause of the present good would go on progressively. If it bad not been for the state of disburbanccs at the present moment, the finan cial system of the .country would be very different from what it is at present.—(Hear, hear.) I should have had nothing to explain, I should have had no appeal to make to the credit of the country, for that appeal is only made in consequence of the extraordinary circum stances that have created it. There are undoubtedly circumstances connected with many of the great interests of th e country, w hi ch it behoves the House and the public to deal with financially, and with great prudence, for although there are indications of good which I hope may come to maturity, there is no gentleman who con siders the circumstances of the last year and the pre ceding o ne , and the possible contingency of the harvest before us, who cannot feel some doubt as to the chance that exists of that harvest turning out well. —(Hear, hear, hear.) Undoubtedly, on the one hand it is satisfactory to find that the value of our produce in manufactures has increased very consider ably during the last year as compared with the previous one ; in fact, with the exception of 1836, which was a year in which they singularly increased, there has not been such an increase known for some time as in the present ; the value of manufacturing pro duce has increased from 42,000,0001. to 50,000,0001. this year, and there has been the same ratio of in crease during the first five months of the present year as compared with the first five months of 1836. But, at the same time, Sir, I cannot but feel that if', for instance, the value of money becomes necessarily increased, and the price of food becomes largely in cre,ised, the revenue not only may, but must be lessened indeed.—( Hear, hear.) And until the lessening of the amount of the revenue, and with the increased demand for the article of food, derived from abroad, I need not point out to gentlemen the diMculty to which thii coun try may be exposed.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, I hold in my hand a return, to which I might possibly have referred when the Right Hon. Gentleman asked me the ques tion with respect to the Corn bill. I showed him how very little productive the Corn bill had been during the past year ; but lie has a right to know the quantity of foreign corn which has been introduced. The wheat and flour imported from the month of August, 1838, to the month of May, 1839, has amounted to 2,591,000 quarters, and the estimated value. as nearly as it could be approached, is about 7,126,0001. ; and it is a most curious coincidence, which I merely refer to, and if any Hon. Gentleman feels any kind of apprehension upon a point of such great interest to the country, I ask him to have the goodness to compare this im- portation on an occasion, not brought on by any steady trade, not in consequence of any steady demand, but upon an occasion of necessity, to be paid for in money—if he will have the goodness to compare the importation of wheat with the diminished bullion in the Bank of England, as shown by the Bank returns which are publicly stated, he will find a coinci dence which suggests many important considerations. — (Hear, hear.) Sir, I allude to them as bearing on my question of revenue and nothing more, because if the effect of this pressure upon the Bank is to enhance the value of money in the country—if its effect is to lower prices—to diminish manufacturing power, and to cripple the productive industry of the country, it will neces sarily and inevitably lead to a diminution of the revenue deposits while it seriously affects the best inter ests of the labouring classes. In speaking of the state and con dition of the work ingandstof t 11 e in the people of England than the way in which they h ave pract i ca ll y labouring classes in the financ ial statement, it has been usual to referthe practical ( t o a tl r a t hear.) I say , Si r, that nothing i good of oa the sense has more Savings shownßanks He resisted the inducemen ts heid out t o them by ill-inten tinned and evil-minded persons to make a run upon the Savings Banks. The Chartists, as they call them selves—or I should say some of th em , f or t h ere are many of them who woul d not join in so wicked a plan— tried, with great and untiring zeal, to excite a disposi tion to make a run upon the Savings Banks, and in a few instances their e vil-intentioned attempts met with success. Although some apprehension was felt at the time, yet I relied with confidence upon the good and right feeling of that class which constitutes the deposi tors in Savings Banks, an d I was not disappointed.— ( Cheers.) The parties who had been induced to with draw their deposits had been the sufferers, for they found out that it was much easier to withdraw their money than to lodge it again.—(Hear, hear.) The results which I am about to read will show the House that the mass of the depositors in Savings Banks knew their own interest too well to be led astray by demagogues.—(Cheers.) I have got here a comparison between the years 1837 and 1838. In the former year the receipts, exclusive of interest, was 998,0001., the drafts 810,0001. —in 1838 the receipts were 1,495,0001., the amount of drafts, 468,0001.—(L0ud cheers) —that was including the w hole year. I have another way of Provirks the same gratifying result in the most satisfac tory manner, ai. -A tt grill prove the very slight effect which popular excitement produpe4 nppn the public mind. I hold in my hand a return of the number of depositors and the amount of deposits, including in terest, for the years 1837 and 1838, and by a compari son of those two years the increase in the number of depositors in 1838 is no less than 67,676—(Cheers) --and the increase in the deposits, 1,793,4391., includ ing interest. With such a gratifying fact before the House Hon. Gentlemen will see that the people of England are not likely to be led astray.—(Hear.) Sir, I shall here close my statements on the actual state of the finances of the country. I have to thank the House for their patience in having heard me through a very dry and uninteresting statement.—(Cheers)—but I preferred endeavouring to make myself intelligible to introducing extraneous topics. Sir, I now proceed to apply myself to the Resolution which is before the House, and which lam about to move. And first, I will anticipate and endeavour to answer, an objection which may be urged. It may be said, "Oa your own showing, with a surplus on the ordinary expenditure as compared with the whole income of no more than 1,300,0001. and with an absolute necessity of making good, from the credit of the country, the further sum of 1,000,000/.—are you justified in a proposition that may affect such a branch of the public revenue as the Post office ?" To this I will give an immediate answer. If my proposition were, to reduce the postage on letters to one uniform rate of a penny, without making good the deficiency of the revenue, which might thereby be in curred, I should expose myself not only to the censure of this House, but to the scorn of all men. That however, is not the proposition I am about to make, and it is one which I never should have felt myself justified in presenting to the House. In all com munications I have had with gentlemen upon this sub ject, I have maintained invariably the same language, that I did not think it would become me to propose, still less the House of Commons to sanction, any mea sure which might endanger a large branch of the public revenue, without at the same time proposing some means to supply the loss.—( Hear, hear.) And in justice to Hon. Gentlemen I must say that I have not met with one who proposed that the measure should be carried without this condition, which is coupled with the resolution I have now to submit to the Committee, and without which I should not have been warranted in proposing this resolution—namely, a distinct vote, to meet the deficiency which may occur.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, the mode of proceeding which I suggest, is a reso lution of this House, and if this resolution is agreed to, a Bill will be introduced founded upon it, and presented to both Houses of Parliament. I think this a course which will be acceptable to Honourable Members of all parties.—(Hear, hear.) Perhaps it may be said " Give us the opportunity of dis cussing it, and above all, pray do not exclude from the consideration of the other branch of the Legislature a question so important as this."—(Hear, hear.) I know it has been supposed that the course of the intro duction of a Bill on this occasion is solely in accordance with the opinions of gentlemen who sit behind me ; but in this particular case I think I really have a right to say that if gentlemen are not disposed to oppose the propo sition I have a right to claim their support of the Bill. Well, what is the purport of the resolution ? and what will be the purport of the Bill ? The purport of the re solution will be this—" That it is expedient to reduce the postage charged on letters to one uniform rate of one penny, to be charged on every letter of a weight to be hereafter fixed by law—(Hear, hear)—the Parlia mentary privilege of franking being abolished—(Great cheering)—and official franking strictly regulated, this House pledging itself at the same time to make good any deficiency of revenue which may be occasioned by such alteration is the rates of the existing postage." Now, I propose, if this should be agreed to, to intro duce this into the preamble of the Bill; and if the House does not agree and assent to the pledge of inakiing good the deficiency I abandon my Bill. Let Hon. Gentlemen on the other, or on this side of tht. House, undertake a measure on the subject, if the: will, they will find me as resolute a defender of this scheme, without making good the deficiency, as they will find me the eager friend of the measure, if I have the means of carrying it into effect, in the only way in which, in my opinion, it can be honestly done. Before I go into the details of the plan, allow me to say, if there was at the present moment a surplus income of three or four millions, undoubtedly this experiment is one which, without any pledge, it might behove the House to adopt, but when the income and ex penditure are such as I have explained their to the Committee, it would be impossible for any man who reasons justly to say you are to put in jeopardy a million and a half of the public revenues, without at thiesame time binding yourselves to provide for the de ficiency. I wish you to listen to all by which this pro position comes recommended to you. In the course of the last year a Committee was moved for, to consider this question of postage. I must say of that Commit tee, although there are points on which I differ from their Report, that the opinion of more intelligent per sons of all classes in this country was never elicited, in my experience of Pariiamentary inquiries. They sat many days, they examined many persons. I differed from their Report, and expressed it the more freely, be cause the proposition I make is not the proposition which they make, and, I believe, a proposition which they would have preferred to their own, if they felt at liberty to make it.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, they make a recommendation to this House, not of the adoption of a penny postage, but of a postage of twopence, under certain regulations, which they conceived might have been carried into effect without any loss to the revenue. Now, Sir, after the best consideration that I have been able to give to the subject, comparing one proposition with the other, and above all, to the evidence taken before them, I find the whole of that evidence and the whole of that authority conclusively bearing in favour of the penny postage, in preference to the postage of twopence—(Hear)—and I am quite sure in respect to an experiment of this nature, you must try it frankly and largely in order to come to any satisfactory result— (Hear, hear)—and I believe most conscientiously that the public will run less risk upon the proposition of the penny which I now make, than if I had proposed the twopenny postage recommended by the Committee. Well, Sir, this proposition has gone forth to the world. This is a new proposition, but the Report, the evidence, and the subject itself have been under the consideration of another tribunal in the meanwhile—l mean the tribunal of the public at large.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Neither on this nor on any other occasion will Hon. Gentlemen suspect me of undervaluing the au thority of petitions ; but,. at the same time, I must say, that on this subject there has been a good deal of the manufacturing of petitions. Let any Gentleman look to the list, and he will see petitions, not from large masses of men, but from the inhabitants of particular establishments. I mention this, Sir, not for the purpose of varying the conclusion to which I have come, but of putting my conclusion upon some other groundwork than the mere number of petitions, or the number of signa tures affixed to those petitions. But whilst I assert that many of these petitions are of that kind, undoubt edly, when I look to the petitions, they contain a most extraordinary combination of the representatives of vari ous classes, unswayed by any political motive whatever, of all shades of opinion, the clergy of all persuasions, men of learning, establishments of education of all sorts and kinds, establishments for science, &c. Many of the petitioners may not assent to my resolution, although they were sincere in the petitions they addressed, because they ask for that which every man in his senses would ask for, the reduction of postage. But the proposition I make is for the reduction of postage to a low and uniform rate on the condition that another tax is imposed, and therefore these petitioners are to con sider that it is net merely to carry into effect their peti tion that I am making this motion, but to carry it into effect coupled with the condition of adding a tax suffi cient to make good the deficiency. This is the way in which the case presents itself to my mind. But I must state to the House, and more especially a ft er the petition presented by my Noble Friend opposite, from the paper manufacturers in Lancashire, that I shall be sorry to ask the House on the present occasion to commit itself to matters of detail. I only ask the House to commit itself to the question of a uniform rate of one penny, and a postage to be taken by weight, I do not ask Members to commit themselves to a ques tion of stamped covers, or an absolute pre -payment under all circumstances. I have my own opinions on this subject, but 1 say these are matters which it is impossible to expect the House at present to commit itself to, or express any opinion upon. I would take, for example, the case of the petitioners whose petition was before the House to-night. Suppose it were to go forth to the public to-morrow morning that the Govern ment proposed, and were actually disposed to adopt the plan of Mr. Rowland Hill. The result at once is, it would go abroad that we were determined to adopt the stamped covers in all eases—to make that the rule— and that we were to use the paper prepared by one single manufacturer, thereby creating a mono poly on his behalf, and excluding the whole remaining, portion of a most useful branch of trade.—(Hear, hear). Why, Sir, the alarm, the sense of injustice such a proposition would occasion, would at once exclude it and therefore I do not ask the House to affirm it— neither do I ask them to negative that proposition at all —I wish the House to affirm the proposition of a penny stamp, and postage by weight. Again, Sir, it is said great alarm and injustice would be created, if, under no circumstances, could an individual write without pre payment. Ido not ask the House to adopt such a pro position,but it may be right that there should be an option afforded to the public to post their letters either by prc-payment, or subject to their being paid for on deli very. At all events the suggestion is, there should be a power of putting letters in the post without a stamp. On all these subjects all I wish is that the House should not commit itself. Then it is asked what do you want with your resolution ; and perhaps Gentlemen from the op posite side will suggest what object can there be in bringing forward popular questions, but to gain popula rity, if I could accomplish all the objects I had in view without a resolution, I would do so ; but I could not. 1\44, in the first instance, supposing the resolution to be affirmed, it behoves the Government to take the most early steps to consider the mode of carrying the plan into operation. This will require very considerable expense —very considerable responsibility on the part of the Government, and cannot but greatly interfere with existing interests. Take, for instance, the paper trade ; take the re-organization of many of the existing Post offices. All these things must be considered ; and would the Government, I would ask, be warranted in taking any of those steps without the authority of Parliament ? I say, that the Government would not be justified in taking such a step, even if they had a sur plus revenue, without the authority of Parliament ; it would be indecorous, it would be indefensible, if the Government were to take such a course, If the Go vernment had a surplus revenue of 5,000,000/. it would not be justified in taking such a step without the autho rity of Parliament, and without its undertaking to make up the deficiency. That is my justification for coming to Parliament on the present occasion. I will now pro ceed to state the powers I want under the present reso lution ; I shall want to take for the Treasury a power—they have now the power of re ducing postage at their will and pleasure— I want that the House should give them the power of increasing postage. It may appear whimsical that that power should be required to carry into effect my reso lution, but I shall be enabled very shortly to convince the House of that necessity. Hon. Gentlemen know that there is at the present moment a penny post esta blished in various parts of England. Those posts are analogous to the twopenny post in London ; letters not exceeding four ounces go by those conveyances, and I cannot adopt a uniform rate of postage unless Parlia ment gives to the Treasury the power, if necessary, of increasing those penny posts. Because you will see that in order to have a uniformity I must reduce these rates to the proper scale to be established in another way. At the same time I wish to take this opportu nity of correcting a mis-statement which is abroad, that the intended new penny postage is intended to be paid in addition to the exist ing penny postage. No such thing is intended it would be perfectly inconsistent with the whole Ar rangement.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore the first power I want is a power to increase the postage. I want, secondly, the power to direct the taking of the postage by anticipation, and I want also a power of allowing that postage to be taken under a Treasury authority through means of stamped "covers—( Hear, hear)—and want that power to rate the postage according to the weight, in place of rating it according to the single and double sheet. These are the powers I want by my Bill, but, inasmuch as they are very large discretionary powers (although we have them already to a certain Ltxtent), I propose that they should be exercised by Treasury warrants, copies of which are to be laid on the table of the House, and that these warrants are ally to stand good up to the end of the next Session of Parliament, so as to reserve the whole controul of this measure in the course of the next Session of Parliament 'or its confirmation. Sir, I know that I am asking a very large Treasury authority—l know that it is one which the House may not be willing to give, but I only ask it upon the understanding that it is only to hold good up to the end of the neft Session if Parliament, but rendering legislation upon the subject necessary in the course of the next Ses sion. This, Sir, is the object of the Bill I mean to in troduce. There is this other power required if we are 'o collect the revenue through the medium of stamps. We must take a power for the Stamp department to make these stamps, because they are not likely to pay the expense, and we must have a power of providing for that expense, so as to make the Stamp revenue avail- Ale for Post-office purposes. The House may expect me to state to them what Amount of loss may be look( .d Lo from this alteration. Sir, I shall not go into a mi nute analysis of this subject, because it must be at best mere matter of conjecture. Nothing definitive can be said in the way of demonstration, although Hon. Gen tlemen may of course assume any given amount of cor respondence to arise. It appears to me, however, that no ingenuity of man can predicate upon a sub ect like this what the amount of letters may be. But lam oound to state it to the Committee, and to the House, and to the public, that my own an ticipations at the outset are that the loss will be very, very considerable indeed.---(Hear, hear.) I am, of course, anxious that my resolution shall be carried, but I feel myself bound to state, and cannot disguise the fact, that the loss at the outset will be very considerable in deed. lam the more bound to state this, becauip if I did not, and hereafter there. were a considerable loss, and the House and the public had not bad this warning, they and you might have said I deluded you into the vote, which now you cannot do. Mr. Hill, in his evi dence before the Committee—he is the projector of the plan, and of course is not disposed to undervalue its merits—he said the loss might be 400,0001. I wish I could believe that the loss to the public would be no greater ; but, on the con trary, I feel quite sure that it will far ex ,teed that sum, for the effect of it will, in the first Mace, be to diminish the receipts, while for a time it must increase the expense. Be, however, the loss great or small by my Bill, th e H ouse i s b oun d to mae it good. It has been suggested to me that I have no means of making the House fulfil its pledge—it has been said to me—you may carry your measure—a great loss is the result, you read to the House the resolution it will come to and you propose a tax—those who voted for the resolution will oppose that tax. Now for one moment I will not give credit to such a thing. I believe gentlemen will act honestly and frankly in sup porting the pledge—if there are any gentleman who are indisposed to redeem the pledge, let them state it at once—let them move to expunge it from the resolution and stand alone—but if they vote for the resolution, and a Bill embodying that resolution, I hope, and I have no doubt they will perform their duty to the House, to the public, and to their own honour. Then the next part of the subject is our own franking system. In one sense we have now the privilege of obliging a friend, but upon all other grounds, there is not one gentleman in the House who would not willingly abandon it.—(Cheers.) As to any franking at a penny postage, the gentle man who wishes it must either have a great respect for the privilege, or a greater love of money than I could suppose any one here has.—(Laughter.) With respect to official franking, my notion is that, with some very few exceptions, every great department should pay its own postage.—(Cheers,) Sir, I now conclude, very sincerely thanking the Committee for the indulgence they have afforded me ; and assuring them that if they affirm the proposition 1 submit to them, it is the intention of Go vernment to give the fullest and most entire effect to the Bill, which shall be thereupon carried—( Hear, hear) —with an anxious desire for the success of the mea sure—with the greatest caution in respect to the inte rests affected—and the most attentive care that the measure is brought to maturity, before it is attempted to bring it into operation. I now beg to move the re solution which you, Sir, have in your hand.—(Cheers.) Mr. GOULBU RN felt considerable difficulty in addressing the House, arising from the course which the Right Hon. Gentleman had thought proper to adopt, in bringing forward, upon a resolution involving a great change in one of the most important branches of our financial system—the general statement of our finances. The resolution itself was of sufficient impor tance to justify its being made the subject of separate discussion, without its being made the vehicle for com municating the whole financial statement of the year— a statement which, taken by itself, presented ample ground for discussion, and required, far more than this particular resolution, the earnest attention of Parlia ment. He (Mr. Goulburn) had on this occasion a very irksome duty to perform—for he should be called upon to repeat principles which he had long been endeavour ing, though unsuccessfully, to inculcate upon the House in respect to the general subject of our finances, but which, he trusted, would ultimately enforce a serious con sideration. In the few observations which he meant to address to the House, he should as closely as possible follow the example set by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He should begin, therefore, by addressing himself to that part of the speech which applied to the financial situation of the :country at the present moment, and which pointed out what had been the expenditure and receipts, and what were to be the expenditure and receipts of the year. He should have been better pleased if the usual vote had been proposed in the Committee of Ways and Means, by which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to make up the defi ciency, that being the proper vote to be taken on a question of this nature, and therefore affording an op portunity to enter into an ample discussion on the po licy which he was pursuing —an opportunity which the present resolution would hardly afford. The Right Hon. Gentleman began by saying, that whereas in former years it had been the custom of the House of Commons to be very vigilant in the expenditure of money, that now the s t a t e o f thi ngs was c h ange d, and the House was foremost in urging on the G o vernment additional expense. H e ( M r . G.) h a d no t seen the tendency of which th e H on . G ent l ema n complained. If there had been an u n d ue d es i re t o increase establish ments, had there not been some rea son why th e House should entert a i n suc h an op i n i on , from the establish ments not having bee n k e pt i n a proper state of vigour If there had been sent out in proper time proper force s to the North American Provinces to check the proceed ings of those wh o were payat tha t advantage of our weakness the re, we sho u ld not now have been call e d upon to m nearly ti a e disposed million and t ° a take half' of money ; and this was certainly an occasion upon which Members ought to express their opinions upon a subject of such vital importance. xis Right Hon. Friend bad gone through the several it ems o f expen di ture and receipts, as esti mated by him, with actual expendi ture and receipts, upon which he had little to observe He would not pretend to say there was anything in hig . Right Hon. Friend's calculations which subjected him to censure, though he concurred in regretting the re sult. In alluding, however, to the increased expendi. ture under our navy and army estimates, Lis - Right Hon. Friend complained there was a disposition in the House to incur a debt without reflecting upon the means by . which that d e bt was to b e paid, Til a t feel ing certainly prevailed, but in proportion as he (Mr. G.) conceived that notion to be dangerous to the best interests of the country, it Was the duty of the Govern ment ( 2 iet themselves against giving cause for any EVENING EDITION. ground to rest that opinion upon. He heard his Right Hon. Friend with astonishment say we had a surplus of 140,0001., but that if we opposed to that a statement of extraordinary expenditure, which he thought would be required for Canada, there would be left a deficiency of not less than 860,0001. or 870,000/. His Right Honourable Friend, however, said that this was not likely to be a permanent diminution. What right had he to make such a statement ? The statement of his Right Hon. Friend in 1837, in 1838, and now in 1839, was that this was a temporary deficiency not calculated to justify the imposition of taxation, but of a debt ; and thus we were to go on from year to year without equal izing the expenditure and reeeipts. His '200,0001., which was the utmost surplus his best calculation would afford him, would soon melt away, and then he would again have to call upon the House to assist him in that worst of all taxation, namely, raising the amount of the deficiency by issuing the amount in Exchequer Bills.— ( Hear, hear.) In looking at the financial state of the country, if we went back for the last 10 years, what did we find ? In 1831 the charge of our public debt, funded and unfunded, was 28,400,0004 ; in 1831 it was just 1,000,000/. more. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.— There was the slavery payment. Mr. GOULBURN hoped his Right Hon. Friend would not think that the slavery payment was the sole cause of this. To be sure, there had been an addition of 700,000/. on account of the slaves, but was there nothing to be set oil' against that? Had there been no fallings in ? Had they not reduced a portion of the funded debt? Had they not obtained a large diminution of charge from the Bank ? And yet, independently of all those and other fallings in, such was the present state of the charge of our public debt. He must admit that, the surplus re venue of late years had produced no effect ; and why ? Because instead of being bona fide applied to the reduc tion of our debt, it had been applied in buying up the deficiency bills. He would, therefore, call upon the House not to encourage by their silence the system upon which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had administered for the last three years our financial affairs. He now said he would provide for the deficiency by an extended cir culation of Exchequer bills ; but if he recollected the discussion which had been before the House in former times, he must feel some impropriety in making that proposition. It was true he had, after admoni tions or suggestions made a considerable reduc tion of the Exchequer bills, by means partly of the surplus acquired in one of the years, and partly by the application of the money in the Savings Banks. Upon the application of money in the Say ings Banks to the Exchequer Bills, he would at present say nothing, because all those points only diverted the attention from the main subject at issue, namely, the consequence of persevering in our present system. The view he had always taken was, that if the House would only maintain a certain surplus over the expenditure, there would be some hope of making an impression on the debt of the country, and they ought never to forget the time must come when they would have to deal with a capital of no less than 1 60,000,0001. of money. While, however, they proceeded with the present system, they would not only he unable to reduce the debt, but must go on augment ing it. In the course of next year a great portion of that debt would be open to be dealt with by the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; but in the meantime, if he embarrassed himself with a larger amount of Exchequer bills and of floating capital, he certainly would not take the most legitimate mode of applying himself to the reduction of the debt ; and by his manner of proceeding he would deprive the country of the advantages which, under other circumstances, it would have a right to expect to enjoy. He had stated his feelings and views of the system of the Chancellor of , the Exchequer. It might be necessary on some future day to have the subject more fuily discussed, but at pre sent he begged to offer a few observations on the Reso tion, which was the main subject of to-nights' discussion —he mean the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend to deal with the Post-office, and to change the whole mode of arrangement of that establishment, for the purpose of effecting what the Right Hon. Gentleman had consi dered a facility of the transmission of letters, and, he (Mr. G.) would admit, that which was calculated to give great gratification to almost every class of the commu nity. He would admit it was no trifling consideration to hazard a million and a-half of revenue which, though it might not have increased either in proportion to the increasing population of the country, or in proportion to the augmenting wealth and industry of the country, it was, ' to be considered as a certain income. If his Right Hon. Friend had had the surplus for which be (Mr. G.) would contend, he for one would concur in the im mediate propriety of effecting a change in that depart ment, and he would say, after considering the Reports of the Committee on the subject, if the experiment was to be made at all it ought to be made to the full extent pro posed by the Right Hon. Gentleman—(Cheers)--and that the suggestion of the Committee—for he could not dispute his own opinion upon it—ought nottobe adopted, that it ought to he twopence instead of a penny.-- ( Renewed cheering.) The whole tendency of the evi- g dence was to show that the smallest augmentation was likely to defeat the whole measure, and that the two penny postage might fail, whilst the penny one was likely to succeed.—( Hear, hear.) He also agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that if this measure was to be adopted, it ought to be a general one.—( Hear, hear.) But there was another question of still greater impor tance to be considered. The Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to pledge the House by resolution, that Par liament should make good any deficiency which the adoption of the measure might occasion. He (Mr. Goulburn) believed that at the end of the year there would be a deficiency of from 500,0004 to 1,000,000! ., although it might n o t b e so great another year.-_ (Hear, hear.) When the Right Honourable Gen tleman came down next year to ask for a tax, to make up the deficiency, the answer would most pro bably be that the people were taxed too much already —(Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to have stated what duty he intended to propose, in order to keep up the revenue, which was dwindling away by degrees.—(Hear, hear.) There was a great difference between the exchange and the imposition of taxation, and be was confident that the resolution would only be adding to the many pledges which had already been broken. Although he agreed to the intro duction of the resolution, he held himself at liberty to resist every other part of the proceedings which should abandon:that amount of revenue without having from the House a distinct measure by which the revenue was to be raised to provide for the deficiency which the re duction of the postage would occasion. —(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME had listened with great attention to what had fallen from the Right Hon. (Nentleman,and would state how far he concurred with him. It might be thought venturesome to propose a change so important, but he believed the Right Hon. Gentleman was not likely to risk one-half, or one-third of the sum mentioned.—(Hear.) There was no instance in any country where a postage bad been reduced in which the revenue had not considerably increased. (Hear.) There might be a deficiency in the first year, but, taking the first and second years together, he did not think the deficiency would exceed what it had been estimated at, and the experiment was so important that he considered the Chancellor of the Exchequer fully justified in making it. Whatever might be the deficiency, be was sure the country would meet it fairly, whenever it might arise. It did not follow, however, as a matter of course, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should find it necessary to impose any new tax, because he had provided most liberally for the large establishments of the country. In 1835, the Army, Navy, and other Estimates, amounted to 13,800,0004 ; whilst, for the present year they were estimated at 16,250,0004 ; and he hoped that circumstances might arise to enable such a reduction to be made as would meet the loss occa sioned. He should not vote against the resolution, but considered it to be of no use whatever to pledge the House to any particular course.—(Hear, hear.) He had been very anxious that the Budget should be brought forward, because since the year 1825 there had been ao instance so late as July, except in one or two the f i i n a s a t a an e c ia e l s y , e a a n r d h t h a d e c a h a a t n p g r e a d w a h c i e c d it t h h a e d r b e e e s a n l t am which de in been anticipated—(Hear)—for every one anticipated that the financial statement would then be made in the , u o e o r o b o il o ls l ,. month of April at the latest, before the grants were all w s h in ie c h e last year, byeeearn, i n made.—( Hear.) He had also looked with great anxiety that year they were only 24,000,0001., but they now exceeded 25,000,000/. He thought that he had a o er n ea ti s i e e d su by bje u c p t w o, a f rd E s lc o i r 1 right to complain of the conduct of the Government the other night with respect to his motion relative to the Bank of England ; for what had they done? Why, instead of being in their places in that House, they did all they could to get the House counted out, in order to prevent its being brought on. He viewed with alarm the situation in which the credit of the country was placed, particularly if the Honourable Gentle man was to be allowed to go on adding to the amount of Exchequer Bills. Upon what authority, he would ask, could the Right Honourable Gentleman expect to see the expenses of the country diminished ? Nothing was settled for Canada. If the Government had given Canada a p ro p er f orm o f G overnment t h e whole expense of the military force there might have been spared. What had taken place a few days ago with respect to the Exchequer bills? Why, if he had been rightly informed they bad been at a discount.— (" No, no.") The whole pressure of the banking inte rest of England was now resting on the Bank of Eng. land, and in what situation was that establishment placed ? Why, according to the last average returns, the amount of bullion in that establishment amounted to only 4,500,0001. He would ask, under such circum stances, with the pressure of a paper circulation, whe ther the House was justified in adopting the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman ? The exchanges were sow, and had Leen for some time past, against this coun try, and the result had been that the 9,500,000/. which had f ormer ly been in the coffers of the Bank, was re duced, he would venture to say, to less than 3,000,000. The greatest mystery was observed with respect to every thing in ths Bank of England, but no such system was ad*ted in the Bank of Vrauce. He protested against