The Sun. — London, England, 1821-05-26 00:00:00

PARMA :VENT, , H -OUSE -1.70-11,DS;,,IkLoir-425. . My. cA4NTroux,iicas heard at the .Bar, on the Strathmore. Case. Further Proceedings postponed till Ttie . sda • : : - STEAM-ENGINES. Mr. M. A. TAyLon and others brought up a Message informing the House that the Commons had agreed fo 'the Amendments made' hi , thizir Lortlsitips.in the Steam Engine Smoke Consuming , The Earl of.SILA FT . ES . _BURY moveld that a Mes sage . hitt;ieht'to . thP Commons. to request a Copy of he ~;,port of their Committee' on the making auclmle of Bread,--Ordered. • • On the motion of the Marquess of LANSDOWN, -the Teturni lately laid on the table relative to the Silks and Wines exported ddring the last 21 years, were ordered to be printed. The Westminster Improvement Bill went through Committee.—Report received.—Ad journed till 'Monday. ROUSE OF COMMONS. •• • - 31ISCELLANEOLTS. .; • `;r.WILLIAMS brought in a 13ill for regulating the votes of-Vreeholders - atElectitmS.--;-Read a first time, and Ordered to be'rend a second time on Monday week. •iw 31- CIIOLMONDELEV - broUght in a.BIII to` - enable Jtstices of the. Peace, to act in certain eases out -of their own c...mr.;ies.—Read a first time, 'and ordered to be read a second time. or; Monday. • The house went into a Committee on the Irish 'Stamps Act. 011) Mowl4y. , „ . .. • . The limiSe went COMmiitee on the Irish Coal Yards A cts,.and C.-($11A - tvr- s was directed to bring in a pur. s. an to the - ReSaliition Oldie Conimittee. Akr: Alder Man WOOD brOtight .np „the Report of the Com-• appointed to inquire into the state of London Bridge,— Ordered to lie on thetable. • • • Mr. DUGDALE,prescnted a petition from. the Overseers of the PcOr of •Biriiiiii,6•Yram 'against the Poor Relief Sill. Sir W. CURTlSbeggepi to take that opportunity to - ask the Hon. Member - for Surrey, whether he intended to move for • a ornmittee.on the subject of the Orphans' Fund, of which he g . iven notice. He (Sir W. Curtis) was extremely anxious that tnis subject shouki:be brought forward with as little delay as his character was concerned ; and as he was sure the rien.• Member would meet with no opposition, he hoped he irotid not delay his motion. , • . H. SUMNER 'said, he had already put off his Motion in tor-us - up:ice of the absence of the Honourabls.Baronet'from ineisp?.sition. In consequence, it was too late to bring it for ward in the presenl Session, but he would not Sail to do so in t'ene:t. rilr. OURTE NAY, having obtained leave froth the House, brezght in a Bill to facilitate the transfer of Trusts, upon I.mztc becoming Lunatics. ' On the motion of Mr. Husxtssox, •the,Land . Revenue Bite waa read a third time and pasSed. LUSHINGTON brought ins Bill to legulate the of Rum into the islands of Guernsey, Jersey, Alder ney, and Sark.—Read 'a first time, andordered -to' be read a tec7ad time on Monday next. . CROWN SLATE QUARRIES. Mr. H.G.' BENNET presented a Petition from a person of the name of Trimmer, complaining that the Commissioners of * 4 - cods and Forests had manifested undue partiality by the lease of a Slate Quarry, held under the Crown, in Car to a Member of that Hon. House (Mr; Pennant) zr• eference to the Petitioner; the Petitioner also urged that lease was forfeited; because it was made a stipulation there that the quarry should be profitably worked. ' He further s' :ea, as a reason for the Quarry not being worked, that Mr. :Fennant had another Quarry in the neighbourhood, from which helierivedgreat advantage, and therefore it was his interest to i tetard theimprovement of that belongingto the Crown::: • HUSKISSON said, he had inquired into the facts ad -17,371ted by the Petitioner, and •he believed that • the iv - Rs of he comylained were merely imaginary. :VIZ. PENNANT admitted, that the quarry was certainly r.gt yet worked, but he had made great exertions to accomplish tart object. After a few words from Mr. Alderman WOOD and Mr.BEN- N 7.7, the Petition was ordered to be laid on the table. - GRAMPOUND. A message from the Lords announced their Lordships' con cu.-Tenceto several Road Bills, and also that they.hAd passed the Gram and Disfranchisement Bill, with some amendments, they desired the concurrence of the House. Lord MILTON stated, with reference to the Gl : impound Disfranchisement Bill, that it was his intention to call the at te7.lt.io/1- of the 'rouse to the Amendments to that Bill which their Lordships had made to it. He felt, however; some difli cm:lty as to the course he should pursue, being doubtful whe ther it would:most suit, the convenience of the House to move fcat the Amendments be forthwith taken into consideration; azci then adjourn the debate to give time for the Amendments tii beininted, or to move that they be printed,. and fix their co=stderation for . sorhe 'future day. After some conversation. between the Marquess. of , Lo NDON. r..nY:Lord MILTON and the SPEAKEn, as to the most con, ve , :ient day, it was moved by. • • Lord J. RUSSELL, that the said Amendments be taken into cemoideration on Wednesday - next. Mr. WYNNE stated • that it was his intention to .move seme Amendments bn the Amendments added by the,House of Lords. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY , observed, that they had in this. Bill got , a retnedy.for a great : evil. it[the Qonstitu ticr., 'which it ivas it - great relief to his mind to have obtained ; and. he. really trtisted.thar Care wouhl be taken nit tti risk" the" for of that remedy, which perhaps' the Arnenadients;of the Foil: Member (Mr. Wynne)mjght be thelneans ofdoing. L.11.1.r. WYNNE- assured `the Noble Marquess and the House' that his Amendments. wduld not endanger the Bill: • ....Lord J. RUSSELL, .. in: moving that the Amendments be printed, expressed' his concurrence in the .sentiments of the : Woble . Marquess on the Subject. SLERriA LEONE. • Mr. HUME presented a Petition from a Dr. Thorpe,LL.D. complaining • of having_ been dismissed from his situation of Chef Justice of Sierra Leone,- from having transmitted to his Majesty's Goyernme n t the complaint of certain planters against Governor MaXwell. The petitioner stated that he was not con scious of having done any thing but what he above stated to oFend this Government,' . and •he thought that after having' tetrad as a .Judge for, fourteen years, Government ought to have inform 4 him of the charges against him 4 and given him an opportunity 'of' justifying • himself. The Honourable Member stated that as. a . proof of the justice of the charges avinst Governor. Maxwell, many, of them had since.been este- . Lushed in a'Court of Siistice in this country. The Hon, Mem 'cc: observed;' that -the petitioner's case seemed to be entitled to consideration, and - he hoped the House would do Sciiiiithing :Cc; him. Mr. WARRE wished to know whether the Governer Max . - well alluded to was the same who-suffered an award in a Court ceJiiitice in this country some time ago, and with, reference to •which • the ilon. Membei for Winchelsea stated to the louse that it was so -hard 3 matter- upon the Governor, that•he thought illajesty"e Government ought to indemnity him in the amount j cf the award. If so,, he thought the charge of the petitioner against him ought not to be entertained by the Hotiae. It m:glit he very•proper for Hon. Members to present petitions of indi viduals complaining of grievances to that House, but some sort of circumspection -should be used, else the characters of indivi i.2.uals might be from no one being piesent at the moment to defend them, - • _ _ Mr. GOUIiBURN fully corroborated. the statement of the „Eon. Member - (Mr. War* relative to the hardships of the award against Governor Maxwell, 'and he fully agreed with the Honourable Gentleman, 'that the charges . contained, in the petition .against that honourable . individual, ought not to ce entertained.' He' should forbear entering Any farther 'lnto a statement of the case, as it had been akeady - frequent:- ly before the House, and also from Afeeling.of Teluctance to aggravate the state in which he'understood. the Yetitioner to le, from any statement of the facts of the case of Which he =telt be possessed. Mr. HELIM maintained thatthere was a pnixai FACIE case against Governoi Max ell in the verdict 'of twelve man.against "ram. Mr. HUTCHINSON hoped • that the concluding wordi,of. the Hon. Gentleman's speech (Mr..Goulburn) were not meant .to convey any censure ort Dr. Tbotpe, who was a Gentleman of a most respectable profession, and deservedly esteeined -in his: own country. • Mr. SCARLETT stated that Governor. Maxwell bad sus-. rained a verdict of 10091. in.th& . case alluded to, and he did not: think he had cause .to complain. , . - • • • • •.• • After a few words from Mr. GOULEUR24 . , the Petiqonwas, •ordered i 0 be printed. • FORGERY PUNISHMENT BILL. Sir J. MACKINTOSH wished to brine up the £teport of the Forgery Punishment Mitigation Bill, to move two or three small 4ruendrnents,. none of winch would be likely to provoke a de bate; and then to fix a day on which the kenerill `discussion should take' place on the third'read.; ing, when any further amendment which others might think fit to.move could be received. The. Report beitig brought up Sir J. MACKIN-Tosii Teminded .the' House that a considerable rhajority of , the. House, when the attendance was as full: as' could be expected'at this period of the Session, had-voted in favour of the proposition for abolishing: the punishmentof death in cases of •forgery.' Among-these were . Bankers, Merchants, and many of the most en lightened characters that had ever adorned that House. In the amendment he had now to pro-. poSe he .wished to mark his respect for the judg ment of those who, differing from him in some instances, had given their present Bill their sup port. In framing it he had in some instances availed himself of their opinions, and he pro posed to do so still more in the present instance by sacrificing his .own, and introducing ex - cep tions which be himself had rnot thought neces sary, but which others had thought desirable. It was most strongly contended that capital ' punishment ought to apply to the forging of wills. In cases where landed property alone .was concerned, he , had. tthought the scruples.en -tertained, on this subjettivain, from the difficul ties whiCh lay in the' way of 'forging Suck wills; but where,perSonal property alone was concerned the same difficulties did not_ occur, and therefore, he was Willing to make an exception with spect to wills. He next proposed sacrificing his own opinion by, excepting the two forgeries. created by the Marriage Act—the forgeries of, entries, and registers oemarriages. Thirdly, he would propose to - except from the general pro V isions of the Bill : forgeries of transfers of stock. He moved to amend the. Bill by inserting words to except the • forging of " any last codicil, or testamentary -paper:" Mr. CRIPPS objected to the Bill, that while it went to punish forgeries of Bank of England notes, it did i!ot extend the same punishment to the forgery of Country Bank 'Notes; This he thought particularly objectionable from various reasons, and especially so as the Bank of Eng land was not obliged to pay forged notes, while the Country Banks were compelled to pay notes purporting to be theirs, though known to. he forged, as if they refused to pay a forged note, their credit would at once be lost, and they would find it impossible to issue another note. Sir J. MACKINTOSH declined offering any re marks on this subject at present, but would re mind the Hon.' Member, that it would be open to move any alteration in the Bill which he might think proper on the third reading. Mr. GRENFELL could not help concurring with the Hon. Gent. opposite (Mr. Cripps,) in what he had said against affording the Bank of Eng land a protection in cases of forgery, which was not extended to Country Banks. He could wish that the Bill should exclude capital punishments for forgery altogether ; but retaining them as ap plicable to cases where,the Bank of England was concerned, he certainly thought., with the Gentleman, that they ought to be extended to Country Banks also. - '- Mr. J. MARTIN had some difficulty in Making up his mind, how to vote on this measure. If the offence were made punishable by transportation in every case, he should have no hesitation in giving it his support. _ _ _ Mr. BENNET differed much from the last speaker. Tranportation, far from.being dered as a punishment, if held out as the conse quence of forgery, would operate AS'a bounty on the commission of the crime. - The generality of persons transported were, he believed, much obliged to Government for sending them,outi. MG. BARING could not see that any benefit was held out to the Bank of England by the ex ception made with respect to its notes. The loss of the forged notes fell not on the Bank of Eng: land, but on the public ;-:end- the question there fore was not-what. would be •best for the• Bank, but what would, afford the country the best - se- Curity Against the crime of forgery. He saw no• reason for making an exception in the case of the Bank of England notes. If the principles on which this bill were founded were good for any thing, they were good.for carrying the principle: to the whole extent.of the subject, for it was contended that the ..milder punishment would more effectually repress the crime than the punish.: ment of , death, and consequently' forgeries of. Bank of England notes would be best prevented by the same means, or.this,Bill was good for no-• 1 thing. The question,-before the house was this --Would a .secondary punishment afford the country greater protection from forgery than it had already? When it was said that the crime ought in every case,be visited with transportation he must oppose that . .pr9poAition t as he agreed with his lion. Friend, thy' rriember far Shrews bury, that transportation witA now considered no punishment . at all ; and if 66 heavier punishment were propcked, he should 'certainly vote against' the:Bill when it came'to a third reading. Mr. J. SMITH objected:to the discretion, which the Bill at present left with the Judge,' of in flicting a long or a short period of imprisonment at pleasure. • '• - ' Mr...LocKHART WAS proceeding to speak on the principle of the' Bill, when SirJ.MACXINTOM interrupted his Honourable Friend, and suggested to him that the discussion could be more conveniently taken on the third reading of the Bill. The Bill, he remarked, gave the. Judge power to sentence the offender to impriionment, 'with or' without hard labour, for any term, not exceeding fourteen years. After a few wOrds'from•Mr..PEAttsr. and Mr. J; MARTIN . , the Ameiichnein was agreed' to. Sir J. MAcKINT.)Su moved the other amend ments which he had announced it to be his in tention to propose, which were agreed to. He a'lco, CIS an objection had been - made to its being left in the power'of the Judge to sentence an offender to as short a period of imprisonment as he might ,think proper, moved that words should be introduced, providing that the imprisonment inflicted in cases of forgery should not be less than three, nor more than fourteen years. Mr. BAILING would rather that this Bill should impose a specific punkhma.nt of ~imprisonment for fourteen years. As the lion. and Learned Ge . ti U - tleman: now: proposed that'` it should stand, - it would go forth -to the country that three years' imprisonment was henceforth to he considered the punbhinent for forgery. This did not appear to him to be a punishment of sufficient magnitude to are applied to cases of forgery. Imprisonment for fourteen years ought to belield out in terrorem. In particular cases the .p,unishment could be mitigated or remitted by the interference of the Crown. Sir J. MACKINTOSH thought there would be , little practical difference whether the discretion he proposed to give were left to a Judge, or whe ther; in• particular cases, a mitigation of punish ment should proceed from the Crown. Dr. Lusx INGTON considered, when the punish ment of death was taken away in cases of forgery, that ii was of great importance that a severe pu nishinent should be its substitute. He'was of opinion that nothing less than ten years'.confine- Ment„ with hard labour; would be sufficient.— lie Was desirous of taking from the Judge the discretionary power which at present it was pro poSed to confide to him. This,. he thought, was due, in the first plate, to the security of the corn-. rnercial world, and 'seCOndly, it was due to, the friends to the diminution of capital punishments, to guard against the Bill being so flamed as to _give their opponents reason to say that the rifea 'sure had failed from the adoption of a too lenient punishment. If his Hon. Friend would consent to it, lie was disposed. as move that ten years' im prisonment, with hard labour, should be the pu ,nishment of forff n ery without any discretion being given to the 'Judge to mitigate the sentence. In particular cases they knew the Crown could be called upon to interfere. The Marquis of ; l oNDoNDERRY remarked 5 that proceeding as they were now dokg, they might go through all the clauses of the Bill without being able to come to any decision. Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, it was with much un easiness and pain that he had heard the conversa tion thus protracted, as it was an act of great courtesy on the part of the Noble Marquis to allow it to be brought on at that time. He was willing to accede to the suggestion of his Learned Friend.—[He then withdrew the Amendment he had last moved . to, propose a new one—that the punishMCnt of forgery should be ten years' im prisonment, with hard labour.] The. Amendment was agreed to. Sir J. MACKINTOSH withdrew the next enact. ing clause altogether, and moved, in consequence of a wish expresged by the Learned Lord on the opposite side of the House, that a proviso should be added, excepting Scotland from the operation of this Bill. Mr. CIItPPS said, 'as other amendments were ,moved in this stage of the Bill, he could not al low it to be printed and go. forth in its present forin without fi f rst moving an Amendment, which appeared to - firm as' important as any that had yet been.Troposed. lie would move, that to the exception with respect to Bank of Englaid Notes, :there 'should be.ad4ed the words—" or any. note, check, or promissory 'note of any other 'Bank." As ;the Bill at present stood, a direct induce ment was held out . , to ..forgers. to turn,ifrom the notes of the Bank of England to those of the Country Banks. Sir J. IVlAciilNTosn suggested, . that this was not the most convenient time,for offering such an amendment. The SPEAKER said, it would be open to the Hon. Gentleman to move his amendment on the third reading, but having passed over that part of the Bill in which it was proposed that it should be inserted, they could not now revert to it. Mr. CRIPPS inquired if it would be correct for him to move that the Bill should be re-committed. Mr.' MAUERLEY thought the objections of the lion. - Gentleman entitled to great weight. The Billy as at preSent framed, went to direct all for -gers to the Country Notes.: That man must be mad who would think of forging Bank of Eng land Notes, when he might forge Country Notes without risking his life. Mr. LOCKHART spoke on the pri4iety of protecting the .Country Banks. Sir J. NEWPORT called the Honourable Gentleman to order, reminding Itim that the question now before the House was, whether or not the operation of the Bill should extend to .Scotland? A conversation on the point of order ensued, in which Dr. PIIILLIMORE, Mr. MARRYATT, Mr. C. W. WYNN, and Mr. BRIGHT participated. The SPEAKER, repeated what he had before stated on the impracticability of reverting at that time to a part of the Bill which had been disposed of. Mr..cluus wished to. know if he should be Out Lof order If he moved an addit'o ial clause ? The SPEAKER said, they could only get rid of the - clan:le then before the House, by - agreeing to it, by rejecting'it, or by amending it. A further conversation ensued, in which Sir J. MAcK..is . . fti'Aii; 'OIPPSi' and Mr. 'L'ocrit Ant, took a part. Mr,CRIPPS said, he should wish: ; to move a clause to,the eWect of what he had stated. Tii,6 SPEAKER inquired if the lion. Gentleman was pie.; pared 'to bring the clause up ? Sint. MACKINTOSH said,:i6ther than he the cause of any` longer. interruption . to retard theapitortant public business which was, (::1 - cotn . e 'on that evening, he would agree to the reconmiittal of I,lte'Report was then ordered to be taken into further consi deration. on Monday. • . . On the motion of Sir J. MACKINTOSH, it was then oi- -. tired that the Dwelling Muse and Navigable River Robbery Bills, should be ordired to'be committed, the former on Mon day, the latter on Thursday. STATE OF EUROPE. •Mr. ARBUTHNOT moved that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. On the question that the Speaker should leave the Chair, Mr. HUTCHINSON, unwilling to throw any obstacle in the way of public business, though most anxious to call the attention of the House to, the present state of Europe, would defer doing so' for the iiresent. He had looked at the book, but could find no open day before the 13th June, and he now gave notice, that on that day he should call the attention of the House to the present state of Europe.ri . he. Marquess of LONDONDERRY felt much obliged to the lion. Gentleman for the course he had taken. He should be happy if it were prac ticable to afford the Hon. Gentleman an earlier opportunity of :;ringing under the consideration of the House die -subject on which he proposed to address them. On the day named by the Hon. Gentleman he should consider him in pos session of the House, and should be happy to hear the'observatious be had to.offer.. Mr: Humepostponed.his motion respectingllie lopiatilslands till the 14th "June. .The House then resolved itself into a Commit. tee of Supply, to which it had previously been refcrred,,relative to the ARMY EXTRAORDINARIES.' Col. DAN - lEs called the attention of the House to the provisioning the army on foreign stations, which, from the piovisions being first brought to this country for examination, and then trans ported to, the places where ,the forces were sta tioned, was much more expensive than it would be on a different system. He thought, by an al teration in this respect, a saving of 10,0001. might be effected. He also thought the rations allowed to the convicts in New. South Wales, as they were greater than those given to the soldiers at home, might be reduced, and thus a further saving accomplished. He objected to the ex pence of continuing the Riding Establishment at Pimlico. Capt. MABERLF:Y called the attention of 'the House to the accounts between the East India Company and doverpment. He considered that further retiring allowances ought to be made by the Company for the troops employed in the East Indies, and hoped, if nothing could be done dur ipg the continuance of the present charter, that the subject would be taken into consideration before another was granted. Mr. A.aßurirmyr expressed himself ready to afford every explanation in his power. I He had been considering of the means of bringing for ward the accounts on an improved plan in future years. With a view to make them more idtel ligible he had ordered a gaper to be drawn up. It was not yet printed, but he had it with him, and would call the attention of the House to it. He then read the Paper, much of which was in audible in the gallery ; but its details seemed to be perfectly satisfactory to the House.. The ac counts would be brought forward on the improved plan in future years. Every attention had been paid to the rations whiCh had been mentioned, and the expence incurred under that head had been considerably diminished. COL DAVIES explained. Mr. BARING wished to put a question relative to one of these items. Before doing- so, he com plained of the manner in which these accounts were kept. There was a sum of 140,000/: re presented to be drawn upon. the Government, but there was no detail as to the uses to which that sum was to be applied. Mr. ARBUTHNOT explained the circumstance to which the observation of the lion. Member, Mr. Baring, referred. ' Mr. BARING thought the accounts ought to be made explicit, and to be presented in detail. The Hon. Member alluded to a grant to Lord Hutch inson, as a remuneration. for horses taken in Egypt in 1801. He thought it rather odd that this allowance was to be made in the year 1821. This amounted to 33,000/. A further sum of 31,0001. was also granted to Lord W. Bentiuck for stores taken at Tarragona. Mr. ARBUTHNOT could - not hut wish that his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the. Exche quer had been present to' answer the Hon. Gen tleman's inquiry. He could only say, that much correspondence had taken place relative to these remunerations, and that they were not granted until every investigation had been made. He believed it was not a new practice to make such remunerations, as his Hon. Friend seemed to imagine. Lord PALMERSTON wished to observe, that all captures made in war belonged to the Crown.— It had always been the practice for the Crown to give prizes captured in action to the navy, and he could not see any objection to the same•principles being acted upon with respect to the army. Mr. I3ARING explained. Sir J. Yontic wished to call the attention' of the Committee to an item - which . granted'Booo/. for the expences of keeping in order. the Break water at Heligoland.. Now, he was of Opinion that the whole Island was not worth :this sum. The period at which it was. of service to •this country was in the time of war, and now that peace was arrived it was rather an incumbrance than any thing else. Mr. GOuLetrux said, that the word " Break water" was inserted in the Estimate - by mistake. The sum of 80001. covered the whole military and naval expence of the' islanth Dr. LUSIIINGTON condemned keeping up esta blishments' at the island, and said they ought•to ,be reduced. Mr. GOULBURN said that the Government had it in contemplation to 'remove the principal part of the establishments, at as. early a period as.it should be found practicable. Mr. Hume. was Yery glad. to hear what hid just fallen from the, HO - 0. Gentleman. He com plained that the contracts for the provisions for the navy wefe made on - 'mu`6ll moie favourable terms than those for the army. They ought both to be placed on the same footing ; and-if one Board were appointed ,to contract .for hoth set', vices, he thought great:savings might be effected. With respect to the allowances for prize money and captures, if they lyere justly due, it was a reflection upon the GoVernment that they had not been paid before. The Hon: Member then com - - plained of the expences incurred 'at. Heligoland. He said that there were various charges for allow ances to individuals which ought not to have been granted without the sanction of ParliaMent. He wished to ask why there was in the Army Extraordinaries, an item'for 70001. to the islands of Guernsey and Jerseys He was not aware that this would appear iu previous estimates, and he it would he - explained by the Honour-. able Secretary. There were charges •also for inspection of Militia in - the lonian Islands, although there was not a militiaman kept He then said that there were agents there. and in other colonies 'receiving altogether a yearly sum of 300c1. for no, purposes of- utility. —He should, therefore, move the reduction of that sum from the present estimate: There was also 9,-,SOOI. fOr the allowanCes of pri vate Secretaries to the. Governors of the different Islands. He had understood last - year tbat these charges were to . be carried to another account : he.could not see what they had to do with - the: 4rmy Estimates,. Ile should propose that the rwlitYte of the .expence of these private Secretaries be i sav It was said that the Governbr of New South Wales had been denied a private Secretary. He hoped, this was a pledge that the whole of . such offices should be abolished. There was a sum of 2,6001. for the charges of retaining Buonaparte. Upon this head he wished to ask. whether it were true, as had been reported, that this Government supported the persons deputed by 'Austria, Russia, and Prnssia, to reside in the. Island of St. Helena. He concluded by moving a reduction of 36,612/, from the Estimate before the committee. Mr. GOULBURN said, that with respect to the Austrian, Russian, and Prussian Agents at St. Helena, this Govermnent did not : - :ay the ex penses of their support. The item of 2,,600/. alluded to by the Honourable Member was for the expenses of improving the house in which Napoleon Buonaparte lived, .and which had been done in consequence of the com plaints of that- individual. With respect to the Private Secretaries of Governors of Islands, he was willing to allow that their salaries had no connection, properly, with the Army Extraordi- . 'lades, and he, , for one; had no objection that they should be carried elsewhere. The Hon. Member had said that tile Governor of New" South Wales had been denied .a:Private Secre tary. He had never heard of such an applica tion having been made. _That pfficerhad certainly apPlied to have a Brigadier-Major appointed for him, but that was quite irregular. With respect to the Agents at the Colonies, they were highly necessary, and occasioned considerable -savings to , - the Government. r . _ The Marquis of LOND,P.NDERRY said ; that- the Conmii§Ooners of Foreign Powers at St. Helena were supported by their own Governments. Be understood that two of them had been recently withdrawn. . Lord PALMEnSTON explained the item relating to 'the charge for the islands of Guernsey and Jersey. _ ' Colonel : GaossErr said, .that the militia of Guernsey and Jersey amounted to six thousand men,and the expence alluded to was for Inspec tors, and for the whole Military Establishment of the Island. . . iumr, said, he did ,not so complain of the item, as it did not appear in Its proper place in the regular Army Estimates. Mr. HusKissoN spoke shortly against the Amendment. If the Hon. Member for Aberdeen chose to call fora more detailed account, he might have , it. M. GIPPS thought a more full explanation ought to be given as to some of the items in the Estimate. Mr. MABERLEY did not _object to a part of the accounts, because some of them had already been before the House; but with respect to the re mainder of them, he thought if ; concealment were the object (which he by .no means thought) the present mode of making up the Estimate was that which of all others ;would be. adopted. He thought a distinct statement should be produced of - the accounts between the. Government and the East India Company. The inspectors he thought • altogether unnecessary ; and he thought it incoo siStent with public duty that the Colonel of. a Re giment should be .the contractor for the clothing !lt would be much more proper that. the Colonel should receive a specific remuneration equal to the ; amount of the profit.. , •Mr. A lIBUTIINO7 said, that in the next year's ESlimate the,accounts .shOuld „be more detailed, but it would be difficult to make up such antic - count for the current year. The state of the account between GOvernent and, the East India Company 'engaged the serious attention of 'his Majesty's Ministers, and the result of their exa mination would be laid before the House. Mr. MABERLEY explained. Sir CHARLopposed the ES LONG Amendment. - _ Mr. BENNI-r said, he - had voted for the re duction of the army, ,and one of his means of re ducing, it, was to reduce" the expence attending it.. Ile objected to the expence attending the Colo nies, especially that of New South Wales,- for' which in one year one hundred and fifty thou sand pounds was charged in one sum, exclusive' of the atarge for transporting convicts. He be lieved the system to he* bad altogether ; and therefore he should move for a reduction of 100,0001. from the motion for a million. Mr. Humn therefore withdrew his motion, all" l the Chairman put the question upon Mr. Be" net's Amendment. -Mr.MADERLEY trusted his Honourable Friend (Mr: Bennett) would not press - his Amendtnent. TIIE. BENNET refused to. withdraw it, and strangers were therefore ordered to withdraw.- -- Ti)e Committee then divided, when there ar peared- 7 _ _ .Foi the Original Motion. For the Amendment - - - Majority . - - _ A Resolution was then moved of 401,5 651. for the Expenees of the Com.nissariat Depar t " meat. . Mr. Gipps complained of the very' genera l manlier ilu wlfich the sums were stated in the Estimate. , Mr. MABERLEY said, he thought there ought t° . be one general Military Depot in the counirY, and he thought the Commissariat Duties sbo u i t a be transferred to the Ordnance, which vo w cause, a very .considerable saving. The servic e " would be as efficiently performed at the Orto nce ' and the first saving of offices and rents would b e obvious. It was true that the change would r " move the patronage of the Commissariat ill the Treasury'to the Master-General of the Orlhe nance, but this was a circumstance I,vbic b really hoped would not be considered b en ole w Committee was discussing a question of The zharge for this Department was not less that (20 per cent. upon the amount of the SUMS passed through it, To support this statement OK, length intro a Member went at considerable dopartrient for a detail , of the expenditure of this ili4 firm opt the last three years, and expressed nion that reduction might be ,accomplished thow,ht k. perfect safety to the country,. ecollorali; that a sasiug might be effected in the Rarirue, Department a , the ~.ht expely 9 or 1 ° 4 ' 114 ,• the Army cost 20/..:per man upon avera,t 'Mr, 1313uiliNaT said that '..1-011 the proPIP-a4 .\s\.\