The Sun. — London, England, 1821-03-22 00:00:00

If the duty Was laid on now at the present depressed state of the market, whatever duty was laid on, the merchant would expect so much to be taken from the shies freight. • s If the con sumpt i on-remains the sable- and the jiiii lilies m proportion to the alteration of the duty, what reason ivoUrdthert be for any deduction from the price of freight? At the present state of the timber market, the depressed state it is in, I do not believe the merchants can afford to give bigger freights than they did last year; and I do helitve, if a duty takes place immediately, the merchant cannot 46 . 111 to ;Ore 3o much freight, i n proport i on as the duty may be ; the depression of the mark et is now When very great. a:Toyour ships go to America to fetch timber, do they go in ballast or with ? In b allast mine go g enera ll y; t h ere arc mapy ships take cargoes out, b he merchants select the small ships for the' purpose of taking the valuable cargoes out to America ; they do not often take the large ones for that purpose. Has the There ' little ofoakplank from the Baltic fallen off considerably ? importation In no the I. Is very oak plank imported from the Baltic into the merchants yards it generally comes `to the king's yards in London. _ is theoak Ido not plank from Stettin of great importance for the building of ships ? conceive it is, for they can get American plank in the room of it. Do you conceive - American plank to be as good ?, As good, if it is of the qua lity of white wood ; there is bad plank comes from Stettin, and bad plank from America, but if it be what they call the white wood from Stettin, and the white wood from America, they are considered as equal. Mr. William Tindall called in, and examined. -41 what business are you ? A ship-builder and ship-owner at Scarborough. How long have you been employed in that trade? About eighteen years. where have your ships generally traded to ? To all parts of the world. Rave you ever traded to British North America, for the purpose of carrying wood from thence ? Yes ; we have had three ships in the trade last year. To what amount of tonnage ? One ship was of 556 tons ; one 514 ; and one 420. What nu m b er of seamen do you employ in those ships ? About twenty-four hands each ; they vary, of course, according to their tonnage, but that is the liVerftg e, tweWhat n um b er of ships belong to the port of Scarborough ? There are from noty - five to thirty thousand tons. I do ot lj you know the number of seamen em pl oye d i n t h e port of Scarborough? n. Is there a co nsiderable traffic from the port of Scarborough, in the British North American trade, not rec e i ve above four carrying of w d oo ? A very small one to Sc ar b oroug h ; t h ey d o car goes a year. Isln What state is the shipping of Scarborough at this moment? In a very dis ied sit uat i on indeed. of To what do you attribute that ? The principal cause is, the present stagnation ‘4 ,.ke occasioned principally by th e over tra di ng o f the previous year. will ' oUld an alteration of the timber duties affect the port of Scarborough ? It I..p r ect the port of Scarborough, as far as respects the shipping interest. a b uti a t ve you much trade with Scarborough to the Baltic ? We have very little ; Of thr ee cargoes a year. built by build are those three ships which belong to yourself ? They were wfy ourselves at Scarborough. pail;Z t t.llher do vou generally use in the construction of your ships ? Princi for e h g l ish oak, 'English elm, and English beech ; fir is used for the decks, and I) accommodations. 0, 11 1.7 d t) ec Y k ° : Use Baltic fir, or fir from the British provinces in North America ? For -, e cabin a:eagne..rall. y use the Baltic fir, but mostly the North American fir for Hav e the light work. nine you ever used American fir for upper decks? I used American fir about ...y ea twir l ; iF ago;,, we fitted some ships with half American and half Baltic, partly .4 ..._ ryn me price of Baltic timber being very high, and partly to try how the 'T,,!l'lcan would last. I sn 'l_ove you lately compared the different state of these two descriptions of timber ? Ifo: one of the ships about two - months ago and I examined her particularly ; caru ' e nd the decks were generally sound ; but where the iron which fastened the deck b, , i n contact A ith the wood, the American deck was the best ; it was less rent - I , ‘ Ve sun, the ship having been in warm climates most of the time. the 4 114 sort of timb er d o you use for masts ? The timber we use for masts for of th e rgoc ships is Q ue b ec yellow pine ; for th e top - masts and yards, the red wood e au , li altic and Can a d a ; f or t h e small spars, the white spruce of Norway and of ~,i'_au; we p re f er t h e N orway. ~. . 14 ove you any reason to complain of the want of durability of the lower masts zaenie,..froin. American timber ? No ; I have found them last rather better than -o : lga, in warm climates, and where red pine has been used it has been much "'Tenor. Can 1 40 you state the different expence of ship-building in this country, and in t o rw itY and Prussia ? Yes, I can ; I have made a statement, which I will submit to committee. hess;inaking that statement, what means have you used to ascertain its correct build I took the quantities of timber and other materials that were necessary to wa y a a ship with ; to that quantity I put the price in England, the price in Nor biD.nd the price in Prussia ; the result is a very great difference in the cost of 'Kling. [The witness produced the same, and it was read as follows.] A• STATEMENT of the comparative Cost of Three Ships built in England, Norw a y or Sweden, and Prussia, of 514 Tons, British Register Measure tent, each. ~. ,~,. ~.. 1 :-. ‘ , 4 C. 0 C° Ts 4 C , ' 4 ° 4 r e iC P t.., 1 ..- 1 "I t:LICM"nWP,..7CIttM R^BglT.Sg2l9" ' - .5 . 2 •7 ;' - ' ,- ',I 7 ='l, 77 0 g g 3 ,...g1 a?-0111gEPP:5W8-g. 4,04 543 rtfrii @-'4 , 1 r D 2 • • I. ," • ZZ ,, a•-` • ''''''„, {7' 4 . cm a co V, ir , al F ...... .. • v... ••. . 2 g 2.9 .i. =;0 ® sft —= • .0 • c. -Pme-P-Fzele.-Eawel B F....m.'zt" • hl. 6 66 ,- zSEE - 66 . - —'-- . 6 • • . . t •—• en I+, OCO CA Co 3 tr, .4 IND C.rr •—• ts C. 4, C 4 C 77., 00 ta .".0 Gn 0.4 C. 4 Co 0 C. C 7, ".• t`Q tZ I co I ,0 kj." Its 7 Ca CS C 4 W I OC ,t" C'3 11I0)ICO I I I I Ct CO tC, t,3 C 7, w. Cm 00 b 0 CP 00 Cr! Co 44 , 4 44 Cm .174 CO NC Cc 44 Cr 44 CD r' Cm CI , CD e4D -- 00 CD Cr CD CD b.: t4D CDV CD :: I I c.; 1 I I Q: :1 z, - ; 10. .. C 5 1 _ 0.1111111..1c. colc, .110. F, 44 00 N 4 00 Gn GO M 44 m ND Go CTC 44 ao bp CO CD C.: Gn bP CD Gn Gp 00 mCO Gn , 4 mlllllllll,, colct N)11,,, 4.. FL b„What nu,. rtiSS'a shr! ns hav e you of ascertaining the cost of those particular articles in '1),4•11.11: fro m - "" in Norway v 2 Partly from the Prussian and other merchants, ° gilt the • ' ca litain r s wa di * ships who have been in Prussia and Norway, and have p„, e articl es th e -- ` 4ll no authentic document? There are no authentic documents other than ,vli.srice-currents of merchants, and what we really purchase goods at. torvt! believe that statement to be as correct an estimate as can be made? I An ot e l, eitto be perfectly correct ; some things are the same in one country as the4j, le r, others are rnuch lower. i a n tiPears that she shipwrights account for . t . he . hull in England is 5,1621. ; th e .. Norway it 1 309 i and that in Prussia it is 2,1871 .: what proportion of , 4°b.L1621. arises from the high duties imposed upon timber in England ? There oriit 'Y small proportion of that, because the ship is principally built of English 'titand the Prussian is built of Prussian oak, and the Norwegian and Swede l aiii ell the comparisY on is me' us with respect to N orway an d S we d en, betweenfir Iti t t and oak ships ? es,ad e these are the materials they generally build W t would *l l4 , You w ere to buy tio a ship o f 5 14 tons, built of English oak, or of Norway fir, t ' be the difference of value in this country ? That is a question lam the,Nable of answering, because we do not build of that article in this country ; .ts . no such thing for sale in this market as a Norwegian ship. Il t .i .f .Tlng the war many Danish prizes were taken, which afterwards obtained ha v i„ ls ° register ; what would a Danish vessel, having obtained a British registry, th e 'qg been built of Norway fir, sell for, in competition with an English vessel of 1 3 , 84Ine size, built of oak, taking them both as new ships ? The difference would as t wo is to three. 44 4 °aid not an estimate of as two is to one be a more correct value ? No, cer be ii i ); not ; lam taking the hull only. Supposing a quantity of Norway fir was to threjatted into this country, and put into a ship, then it would be as two is to 4 . Illake this a fair comparison between the Norway and Swedish ship, and the t o C e ° sh ship to the price of the Norway or Swedish ship, a great addition ought Al . Slade ? 13y adding one half of the 1,3091. to it, making it 1,9501. 0 . c you engaged in ship-building at present ? I am, as far as our apprentices .... , ~... 1 , ~.7 h ave discharged all our men ;we cannot continue the trade any longer; cannot sell our new ships for the prime cost of them. ploy you still find it necessary to continue ship-building in some degree to em did anur apprentices? We should have to pay them their wages whether they b i ' . ',Y thing or nothing. of e " You build these three large ships of which you have spoken, for the purpose sbe :11'Ing timber from Ameri N one of the ships was built the . last year; that7Lt, us 12,1001. fitted for ca a voy age o ; to Canada, but she was not intended for itet e0;" 4 ,,,e ; Our object was Yi nent for her, to send th e s hi p to the East Indies, but we could not l'° ~ „ • State the objects of the other t w o. Th e y were old shipi, both built for the West India trade, and had gone as long as they were fit for that trade. Now they are put into the North American trade? Yes. Is that the case generally ? It is : in fact, the old West India ships are fit only for the North American trade ; this trade takes the old West and East India ships. If those ships were thrown out of the North American timber trade, could you employ them in any other ? . It would be a very disadvantageous thing to send them to the Baltic ; on account of their size. Before a ship of that descripti o n i s put into the American trade, has not she already fulfilled all the services that she was expected to fulfil when she was built ? By no means. You state them to have been built originally for the West India trade? Yes. What length of time do you reckon a ship ought to continue in the West India trade ? About twelve years. How long had those ships continued in that trade ? One cf them had con tinued twelve years; one has been in the American trade some time; she con tinued about ten or twelve years in the West India trade, then went into the transport service, and continued about four years, and she then went into the North American trade. Having speculated upon her life at twelve y e ars, and she having fulfilled that term in the West India trade, or the West India and the transport trade, were not the owners completely remunerated for the building and expence of the ship ? In answer to that question, we never expect a ship to have fulfilled her object of building until she is either lost or destroyed in some way or other. But, when you build a ship, you always calculate Upon her lasting a Certain time, do not you ? No : the durability of a ship is very uncertain. When a ship is built, do not you, in forming your calculation of the price that she is to cost, speculate upon a certain number of years which she ought to last, if she meets with no accident ? If she meets with no accident, we calculate upon her lasting twelve years without material repairs, and as much longer as she will after she is repaired. Do you mean that you calculate upon a ship lasting twelve years, without un dergoing any repair ? 'Without undergoing any substantial repair ; I mean without a new top, &c. Is not that beyond the usual calculation ? Some ships will not do it ; they have to be pulled down to their foundations at five years old. What ships have you known go twelve years without undergoing a substantial repair ? A great many of the river-built ships are considered fit to carry the best cargoes till they are twelve years old, and north-country ships ten years. Previous to the trade with British America being carried to its present extent, how used you to employ your worn-out West India ships ? 'We used to send part of them to Riga, where they lauded in the bay : sometimes it happened that there was transport service that we could put them into ; sometimes they went to Onega for deals, and Wyburgh ; but the navigation of the Baltic is rather dangerous for a very deep ship. Has not.the cessation of the war, and the consequent want of demand for ships for the transport service, been the cause of the great number of large ships which are now on hand, without adequate employment ? That was in the first instance the cause of the great depression in shipping, but we got over that depression, and freights rose; we had the rates we have now about four years ago, and they rose to 31. and 31. ss. for a voyage to Quebec ; that was a remunerating price ; but there was an overtrading in the year IMO, and that caused the very great flat in 1820. When you talk of overtrading, what do you mean by overtrading; overtrading in one particular branch, namely, to America, from there not being an encourage ment to send ships to other quarters ? There was an expectation there would be a duty laid on American timber in the spring of the last year, and the American merchants anticipated that. If you had not sent your ships to A merica, where must they have been sent to ? We must hate broken them up, there would have been no alternative; we must have lost all the difference between the price for use and the price for break ing up. Was not the overtrading you mention the cause of that rise in the freights which you mention for one year ? I think it was the cause of the odd five shil lings taking place ; we had 31. in the year 1818, and in the next year we had 31. ss.s. Was not the year 1818 a year of very great demand ? It was not so great as .819. If no alteration were to take place in the duties on American timber, would it not be for the interest of the ship-owners to diminish the number of the large class of ships engaged in it ? It is not in their power, unless by breaking up, and that takes place every day. It is quite impossible to continue to employ the present number of ships of that class beneficially ? It will be, if the duty remains as it is—if there is no alteration of the duties. The alteration of duty will tend, in your opinion, to diminish the number of ships that are sent to North America, and therefore to make the trade more bene ficial for the remainder of the ships? The natural losses tend to reduce the number, and the breaking up together : I would observe that the cause of the freights being so low last year was not altogether this (with reference to over trading) ; there was ancther cause, the trade to the East Indies has been nearly discontinued : there were, two years ago, about eight hundred sail of ships em ployed in the corn trade, of the smaller class (perhaps averaging 100 tons each; and about three years ago we had a very good trade in the Mediterranean, for small vessels to bring corn from Odessa to the lower ports in the Mediterranean, and to do other parts of the business in the Mediterranean ; but after the battle of Algiers foreigners were allowed to trade as they pleased, because there was no impediment: the Swedes came to the Mediterranean in great abundance with lumber ; they sold the lumber in the lower ports, and then chartered to go up to Odessa, and they did the work for less money than the English ships could do it for; we were therefore obliged to withdraw those ships from the Mediterranean : I had three ships myself in the trade ; the last two of them went up in the year 1818, under art expectation of getting the usual employment ; when they got there they could not get freights. Then you are of opinion, that, if circumstances were to occur to give general activity to the trade of Europe, such circumstances would be more beneficial to your shipping than having only the alternative of sending them as you are obliged to do at present, from the depressed state of trade, to America?' It would with draw part of the tonnage from the American trade, particularly of a smaller class, that would give impulse to the rest, and they would have better freights. ' 'Why do you prefer Quebec yellow pine for the masts of your ships to Baltic pine ? Because the heat of the warm climates has not so much effect in rending them ; the water cannot get admittance. Do you consider the yellow pine of America equal in quality for general pur poses to the Baltic pine ? No, Ido not ; Ido for two-thirds of the uses to which it is put. For what purposes do you not think it so preferable ? I would not put yellow pine into a damp wall ; I would not use it as a post in the ground. For what purposes do you think it preferable ? If I wanted to lay the floor of a house I should prefer it, because it is clean ;or for doing any in-door work, making a door, because it is light. Are those about two-thirds of the purposes to which it is applied ? No ; I think there are a great many purposes of the inferior kind, and that they together constitute about two-thirds. Do you think that in your part of the country it would have a use at equal price? No, it will never have the same price in our part of the country, because it does not come home so well squared. If you could have the fir at equal prices for those particular purposes for which it is preferred, do you not think it would be used ? There is a very considerable prejudice against this wood, which prejudice will be some time before it is worn off. Do you think that prejudice is wearing off in your part of the country ? I think it is, gradually; but one way in which the prejudice wears away is because it comes in cheap, and persons arc induced to make the trial ; and until time has given it a fair trial 1 think there would always be a great difference in price. Do you think the preference would go to the difference of 30s. a load ; do you think, if the price of the American was 30s. a load cheaper than the Baltic, that it would not be preferred ? No ; I think it would take 40s. difference to lead to the general use of it. You yourself believing it to be equally good ? I only say for certain purposes that it is equally good. You state that it is used in the ships you usually build, for masts and for cer tain other parts of the ship ; is that the common practice in ship-building through out the eastern coast, that they use the American wood for masts ? Speaking of masts, it is not the universal practice; but it is the general practice for large ships : I make that distinction, because the red pine is superior to it for smaller masts ; but we cannot get the red pine of large size enough. What do you call a large ship ? I call a ship of 400 tons a large ship, to make a mast of a single tree. For every ship of 400 tons they. are obliged to use the American ? We are glad to use it—we prefer it. I do' not mean to say that every one would prefer it, because if they could get the Riga spars many people would prefer them ; we can get them of that size, but the first cost in Riga is an amazing price. A large mast costs more in Riga than the American mast will in England, although there is the freight and duty to pay upon it. Have you ever seen Stetin oak plank imported for the purpose Of ship-building ? Yes ; Stetin, Dantzic, and Memel. Are they useful for any purposes in ship-building ? We use a large propor tion in the planking of the inside only ; it is too dear ; we get the American tim ber now for less money. If you could get the Stetin for less money, should you prefer it to North Ame rican ? No, I think I should not, but it is all matter of opinion ; the Stetin tim ber is brought in in planks, it is well seasoned in consequence of being brought in in planks ; the American is brought in in logs, and it is not seasoned, and it requires a long time to bring it into the same state ; on account of the American being cut up immediately, and put into ships immediately on its being cut, it is very apt to decay, consequently there is a great prejudice against the use of Ame• rican timber in ship-building, which does not exist against Stetin to that extent; but, if I were to give an opinion as to the intrinsic value of the two articles, I should say one was equal to the other under the same circumstances. The preference then would be a mere question of price between them ? It would, provided they were placed in the same circumstances. Have you built any ships lately ?a. One of the ships sent to Quebec was built last year. 'Was there any Stetin oak plank put into that ship? None; I believe there was African oak. When did you last employ any Stetin oak plank in any of the ships you have built ? I think it must be seven or eight years ago ; Ido not recollect to have used any since then. What was the cause of your not using any since then ? The price was too high. What has occasioned that high price ? The duty is one great cause of it ; the duty on plank is about five pounds sixteen shillings and sixpence per load, which is as much as the first cost of the American, or nearly so, • Do you get any oak timber froln Hamburgh ? Never, there is none imported to our port ; we use principally English oak, for the timbering, some Foreign plank oitcaSion&lly for' the outsides: Are not the length's of the Stetin oak plank very favourable for shipbuilding? Very favourable. You state that you have but three ships employea In this trade froin.Scaiboro' ? It is not from Scarboro' they are employed, it is from England general/74 only one of them came to Scarboro', there are others employed in that trade besides mine: How many other ships from Scarborough are there employed in that trade ? As nearly as I can recollect, ten or twelve sail. They are employed from the west coast ? From any port where they happen to be, either London or the west coast ; sometimes they come to Plymouth, some times to Portsmouth; Do you know the number of toyages they make in a year ? To the east coast generally one; sometimes a ship will make two voyages to the east coast, but it is a very rare circumstance ; there were six ships made two voyages to Quebec from London last year; from the west coast perhaps two thirds of them will make two voyages ; there is a risk in making . two voyages, for if they do not get a good run out the first passage, they never can make two voyages. What is the present cost at which the hull of a ship can be built in the out ports at present? We cannot get what the cost is; the price varies very much, according to the size and quality; it runs from about nine pounds to twelve guineas. Mr. John Hill called in ; and examined. In what business are you engaged ? A merchant residing in London, bait having connexions at Prince Edward's- island, being a proprietor of lands in Prince Edward's island, and carrying on business there. Have you lately returned from-that island ? Yes. Can you state the present situation of that country with respect to its agri culture and population ? The agriculture of the country is daily increasing; the population during the last seven years, I think, has nearly quadrupled, at least, it is tripled. Is the timber trade carried on there to a considerable extent ? According to the size of the colony, to a considerable extent; it is the principal trade, almost the only trade on which returns can be nude ; I think four-fifths of the returns are made in timber. Are the population of that colony principally employed in felling and preparing that timber for market, and bringing it down to the shipping ? The population, during the winter-time, are almost wholly employed in cutting and squaring timber. Are not all agricultural operations sttspended during that season ? Most assuredly ; the severity of the weather is such that very little can he done in agriculture. Are the operations of felling and preparing the timber carried on by the inha bitants of the island, or by subjects of the United States ? There is no atibject of the United States ever comes there to cut timber. How many vessels do you load in a season at Prince Edward's island ? I believe, in the season of 1819, there were about 1,900 tons of shipping. Is that trade rapidly increasing ? The trade has rapidly increased, and I believe is increasing; I cannot state the amount within the last year That effect, in your opinion, would the imposition of a duty on the thl;er from that colony, have upon the continuance of the trade ? I think it must knock tip the importation. I have, at this moment, four cargoes of timber imported into this port: Upon the first cargo that I sold, though I had it at a very low freight, I sunk fifty per cent. ; upon three other cargoes, at the highest price I can at present get, I shall sink 75 per cent. reckoning the cost of the timber at from 15s. to 18s. per load ; that is the simple cost of the timber, without the attendant expenses of clerks and people to conduct it. I should suppose reckoning all expenses, it must stand me in 20s. delivered alongside. What net proceeds will remain per load upon the sale of this timber, at the present market price ? Not ss. ; not more. Are the exports of timber the principal means the inhabitants of Prince Edward's island have of paying for their imports of British manufactures ? Certainly ; the import of British manufactures; these I take to be from 40 to 45,0001. annually ; four-fifths of which have been paid for in timber, and at present they have no other means of paying for it. If the timber trade should be discouraged, what resource will the population of that colony have ? In the present infant state of the colony, they have no other ; if it were not for the timber, I could not support the settlers I have upon my lands ; I have placed forty families upon my lands : those families all require sustenance for at least two years, before they can produce sufficient to live upon from the cul tivation of their lands. They have first to cut the trees down, clear the woods, and afterwards to bring the land into cultivation, build a house, and they must be sup ported by a proprietor or merchant ; and the timber is the only thing they can depend upon. Is not there a considerable cultivation 'of grain in Prince Edward's island ? Very little more than supports the inhabitants. Used not that to be considerable ? No ; the accession of inhabitants took up the surplus which could be spared, and the new inhabitants have not yet had time to cultivate their lands. Did they not use to supply Nova Scotia with grain ? It is said so in the French account, but that is not the case. Have any establishments for ship-building been formed in Prince Edward's island ? Yes, a good many ; the establishments for ship-building have very much increased, particularly in small schooners, for Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, and the coasting trade. In your opinion, does the prosperity of this rising colony depend upon the con tinuance of the timber trade ? I think entirely so ; I must give up my concern if the timber is no longer to be brought here, and meet something like the prime cost. What duty, in your opinion, would the American timber bear without discou raging the importation of it into this country? When I state to the Committee that at present we are losing from 50 to 75 per cent. upon the article, I suppose a duty upon the present state of the trade cannot be borne. Would not a moderate duty lead to a hater selection of the timber, and to its acquiring a better character in this country? That is a speculative question I cannot answer; it might in time. I have now five thousand load of timber down, which I should conceive to be a total loss in case there is any further obstruction to the import of timber; I have lost already 50 per cent. upon one cargo, and at the present prices I must lose 75 per cent. upon two others. Should you be discouraged from importing the quantity of timber of which you speak, if any duty were imposed upon it in this country? Most assuredly; lam now attempting to sell the timber I have down at thirteen shillings a load, and I cannot get it. Is the timber of Prince Edward's Island of particularly bad character ? There has been bad timber sent from Prince Edward's Island, but that perhaps is owing to the want of a good selection. Is it not considered generally inferior to the rest of the American timber? I am not aware of its being so. Was not the timber trade with Prince Edward's Island created by the high duties on the Baltic timber? It first originated there. And if those duties had not been so high, all the bad timber that has come from Prince Edward's Island probably would not have come here? Perhaps not; mine is select timber, cut on my own lands by my own tenants, sent home by my agents, and Is perfectly select timber. Did you enter upon this line of business depending upon the protection of the British government? I most assuredly did; I sent out emigrants at a con siderable expense ; I have 80,000 acres of land there ; 1 have already established forty families; the only return for this I can receive at present is in timber, and they can no longer have supplies from me if the timber trade is destroyed. When did you send out those families? I have been sending out and encouraging others that would come out of themselves, every year for these three years past. That is from the year 1817 ? Yes. Had you in the year 1817 any reason to believe that the duties on Baltic timber were considered as other than temporary? I ever considered them otherwise, seeing them to be so beneficial to the colonies; I considered that the government would always protect them on two principles; in the first place, for the encourage ment of British shipping; and in the next place, for the consumption of British manufactures, in which the whole is paid for; that induced me to think the govern ment would never suffer the timber trade of America to be interfered with. Had not those engaged in the timber trade, received intimation from govern ment, previous to that time, that they were not to calculate on the permanency of the present duties ? I never received an intimation of the kind, nor heard of it; but if I had, I should have considered that a promise given by government could be only conditional, and that if the government found the trade beneficial to the country at large, they would still continue that trade, notwithstanding any pre vious understanding upon the subject. Do you happen to know whether there was not a letter from the Board of Trade in the year 1817, which was intended for the information of the trade generally, that it was their opinion that an alteration ought to take place? I never heard of such a letter; and if I had, I should have conceived, after the benefit the country derived from the trade, that the government would have withdrawn such notice, on the principle of encouraging British shipping, and the exportation of British manufactured goods. [Adjourned to Monday. Luxa, 26 die Fetruarii, 1821. The Right Honourable THOMAS WALLAca, in the Chair. Edward Sally, Esquire, called in ; and examined. Will you be so good as to state to the committee, what business you are en gaged in ? I was formerly in the timber trade in Dantzic. Are you at present in the timber trade ? lam not. How long have you ceased to be so ? I have been connected with my brothers, as agent principally, abroad, and have ceased for about three years. Were your brothers resident at Dantzic ? No ; I was formerly resident there. Have you, since you left Dantzic, been conversant in the timber trade of Dantzic and the other ports of the Baltic with this country ? I have. Are you acquainted with the general occurrences that have taken place in that trade, during the last three years ? Yes; I am. Will you state to the committee, whether the timber trade from Dantzic to this country, is carried on in Prussian or British vessels, or in both ? In both, but principally in British. Is that at present the case ? It is. Are you acquainted with the timber trade of Memel, and the other ports of Prussia ? Yes, I am. • Is the trade from those ports carried on in the same proportion ? In the port of Memel, the proportion of British is larger than at Dantzic. Is there the same proportion at Stettin ? The import trade from Stettin is entirely British. Arc you aware, that in the year 1818 2 the quantity of tonnage employed in the import trade of Prussia, was Bari) , equal as to foreign and British; and that tit the year 1819, there were one forty-eighth part of British ?—That arose out of the circumstance, that in this year there was corn imported. Then, although a great proportion of the timber trade was carried on chiefly in. British vessels, in this year, is the corn of Prussia, when imported into this country,, • brought chieflyin Prussian vessels?—When corn is imported frorn Prussia in foreign. vessels, they do not pay a higher duty than British vessels do; but in the case of timber coming in foreign vessels, they have to pay a duty of 3s. Bd. a load more. Does that circumstance give a preference to the bringing of corn in Prussian vessels over British ?—No, certainly ; but they can sooner compete with British vessels in the carrying of corn, because there is no difference in duty. What proportion of tonnage, in Prussian vessels, might be employed in im porting corn to this country, during this year ? I cannot speak to that. Then, in point of fact, the corn of Prussia was in this year nearly or wholly im ported in Prussian ships ?—I cannot say that was the case, but it will account for the circumstance of Prussian vessels bearing a greater proportion than usual. Is there an export duty paid in Prussia on timber or corn ?—The export duty on timber has been lessened. And on corn 9—There is a small duty on corn. Is it the same in British and Prussian ships ?—Exactly the same. Can you inform the Committee why the duty was reduced on timber, and in what proportion it was so reduced ?—I cannot say exactly the amount that it was reduced, but it was reduced in consequence of the complaints of the timber mer chants of Prussia that the trade was decaying, and the government wished to con tribute all in their power to continue the trade. Are you aware of the proportion of the duty that was so reduced or taken off ? —I am not aware of it. Is the freight of timber from Prussia to the port of London, the same in British as in foreign vessels ?—No ; the shipper of timber cannot afford to give the same freight to the Prussian vessel that he can to the British vessel, in consequence of this difference in duty. Is the difference of freight proportionate to the difference of duty P—lt is not always exactly that difference. But nearly so ?—lt is. Will' you inform the Committee what the current price of freight in British shipping was, and what it was in Prussian vessels during the last season ; that is, from the ports of Prussia to London ?—ln English vessels about 22 5 . i n Prussian vessels 19s. eV Are you acquainted with the current shipping price of timber at Dantzic during the last season, if so, please to state it ?—I am better acquainted with the shipping price of timber, of good middling quality, at Memel. Are you acquainted with the shipping price of timber at Dantzic or Stettin ? —lt generally regulates its price by the price which is obtained at Memel, and I believe it is about the same as at Memel. Is not the timber of Dantzic more estimated in this country than that which comes from Memel?—There are a variety of qualities; for some purposes the timber of Dantzic has been preferred, as for instance, for the use of the navy. Are the relative prices of Dantzic timber generally higher than those of Memel ? —They are. In what proportion ?—They vary according to the demand ; there are periods when there is a greater demand for the Memel, and at other periods there is a greater demand for the Dantzic. Can you not state an average proportion, how many shillings per load the average may be 9—Sometimes as much as ss. Are you acquainted with the expenie of building and fitting out Prussian ships ? I have been a good deal conversant with Prussian shipping ; I was 'a considerable owner of Prussian ships myself in the year 1809 ; I was owner of 20,000 tons. Have you had occasion to know what British shipping cost in building and fitting about the same period ?—I have heard what the cost of British shipping was at that time. Will you state to the Committee what PrusSian ships cost fitted for sea, built of the best materials, and fitted in a sufficient m anner i n 1809, per reg i ster ton ? I can speak to th e act, that I had a vessel built of 900 tons, which cost 15,0001. Have you had no instance of the cost of smaller vessels, 900 tons being an excessive size ?—The smaller vessels cost equally as dear, and rather dearer in proportion. Will you state what British vessels of the same description, built and fitted in the same manner, cost at that period P—l cannot speak to that; I should think a British ship-builder or ship-owner would speak more to the point than I am able to do. Then you are not prepared to state the comparative cost of Prussian and British ships ?--If I may be allowed to state as a general rule, ships are never built for the timber trade, the exceptions are in time of war • ships are built to carry valuable cargoes w hi c h mus t b e k ept dry ; they gradually descend in their employ, and when fit for nothing else, still they arc sufficiently able to swim a cargo of timber from the Baltic to this country. Thus between the American and French war, there were only two ships of any size built at Dantzic in the ten years, this I know as a fact ; and for the same reason not one ship of any size has been built in their Prussian ports since the peace. The ships built in the late war have been wearing out fast, those remaining may continue in competition with British ; but while a ship of the lowest value will serve for the timber trade, it is not likely any one would build for that trade at 101. per ton in a country where money is so much wanted for other purposes, and where discount is often at two per cent. per month. Can you tell the relative price at which Prussian and British ships could be purchased between the American and French war ?—I cannot tell the exact price, but I presume that British ships for the timber trade could be afforded cheaper from the circumstance that no Prussian ships were built. Can you tell whether the British ships were not at that time, relatively with the Prussians, cheaper than at present ?—I cannot speak to my own knowledge. Can you state to the Committee, the present comparative charge of navigating Prussian and British vessels in the Baltic trade ?—When I had formerly an op portunity of observing the British shipping that came to Prussia, I observed that they were navigated cheaper than the Prussian vessels, from the circumstance that they were navigated in a great measure by apprentices ; that they had fewer men, arising from the circumstance that ,the Prussian ships were much more heavily rigged, their cables were much heavier in proportion ; they required, therefore, more men at the anchor. With respect to provisions, we sometimes fount it for our advantage to have them laid in in an English port; but if they were cheaper in the Prussian ports, the British captain had the option of laying in his stock there. 'With respect to the expedition used in the voyage at that period, an English captain and an English crew showed greater activity, and performed their voyage in less time than a Prussian crew. In point of fact, at present, are not seamen's wages per month higher in the English than in the Prussian service ?—The wages of Prussian seamen are about 30s. per month, but I am ignorant of what is the present rate of wages in British ships. In point of fact, do not the necessary stores, such as cordage, sails, salt, pro visions and articles of that nature, cost more in British than in Prussian ports?— The foreign ship-owner, who has been obliged to buy cordage, or any of those articles in a British port, has to pay for them at a higher rate, and the English captain, who has purchased them in the Prussian ports, perhaps will have found them cheaper. Then in point of fact, they are more expensive in the British than in the foreign ports ?—I would beg to point out, that the English captain, if he chuses, may supply himself in a foreign Do you know that British shipping in the Baltic trade are chiefly navigated by apprentices at the present time ?—I do not know they are so at the present time. Presuming a British ship supplies herself with cordage and sails in the Baltic, on her return to a British port, is she not liable to pay a heavy duty on those stores so provided ?--I am not aware of the fact. You have stated, that Prussian ships at present are under certain disadvantages in their navigation, from the construction of their rigging and the size of their cables ; is it not to be expected, that such improvements will be made in their system as will, in a short time, remove those objections ?—As there is no induce ment to build Prussian ships, I do not see how the alteration is to take place. Is the Committee to understand, that although Prussia possesses within herself facilities for building and navigating her shipping at a less expense than British ship-owners can, were the most to be made of its advantages, that she is not likely to avail herself of those advantages to that extent ?—Yes ; from the circumstance that ships are not built for the timber trade. In paint of fact, are not a number of first-class British ships now employed in the deal and timber trade ?—Certainly; but not the first class, that I am aware of. Will you inform the Committee, whether there is now a considerable exportation of oak plank from Dantzic to this country ?—There is rio encouragement for it, though there has been oak plank imported here. To a considerable extent ?—Not by any means to an equal extent with former exportations. What is the cause of the discouragement to which you refer ?—The high duty ; the duty is equal to the prime cost. If the duty be reduced materially, in your opinion, would the importation in crease considerably ?—lt would increase, but to what extent I cannot say. Is there a considerable exportation of staves from Dantzic to this country ? There has been, but it has not been equal to what it was formerly. What has led to the reduction ?—The high duty. By what means has the deficient import been supplied in this country ?—By importations from Canada. Is the quality of the staves of Canada equal, or not, to the staves of Dantzic ? I have understood that Canada staves are very carelessly converted, and I have heard that the quality is not equal. What is the comparative price in this market ?—I cannot speak from my own knowledge of the exact price. Do you know whether the dimensions of the pipe staves of each country are similar ?—They are similar in length, but the Canada staves are very unequally converted, both as to thickness and breadth. Are they used for similar purposes in this country ?—ln many instances. - You have stated the freight of timber from Dantzic to London during the last year; can you state to the Committee what was the current freight of timber from Dantzic to Liverpool ?—I believe as low as twenty shillings. Have Dantzic ships resorting to Liverpool any advantage over ships resorting to London, in their return cargoes ?—They carry salt back ; the salt freight back compensates for the low freight there. Are you not of opinion, that a ship of a better description is necessary to carry salt than might be employed to carry timber ? Certainly. Then is it to be presumed that the better description of Prussian shipping are employed in that branch of the trade ?—Certainly. Do you happen to know whether the duties imposed upon Prussian timber have been the subject of great complaints in Prussia ?—Very much so. Have you any reason to believe that if those duties were altered, there would be an increased exportation from Prussia to this country of timber ?—I am of opinion that it would increase considerably. From any information you have, are you led to believe that that increase of export would be followed by a corresponding increase of import of British manu factures into Prussia ?—I am of opinion that it would lead to an increase. Do you happen to know whether any regulations have been imposed in Prussia •-• • 1-3 A ;4G t a PE; ' .4.ioz -,. tt e.., tA tTi ~ 1,,4.