The Sun. — London, England, 1839-08-06 00:00:00

E'VENING - EDI I ON. After a few remarks fro.:: Mr. 1 - IU:dE te,e vote NI:: *greed 'to. 11 i0004 for the Foundling Hospital in Dublin w to als' greed to; r A vote o f 2 0,000 1 . for the House of I:idustry in Dub I n was agreed t o without cl!seussion 1 50/. was voted for the Hib , rLian - Society of Dubiin. 1 0 004 was voted for the Lyint , -in Hospital, Dublin. 1 • _ _ . e, 3 800 . . 500 /. was v o t e d for S:evens's Hospital, Dublin /. for the Fever Hospital, and 5004 for the Hospital of Incurables in the same city. GRANT TO MAYNOOTH. On a sum not exceeding 8,928/. being proposed to be voted for the Royal College at Maynooth. An HON. MEMBER expressed his regret that it should have been brought forward at so late a period of the S ession as to prevent many Hon. Members recording their v ntes against it. Colonel PERCEVAL bad always opposed this vote t ad regretted i t was not brought forward at an ear li er Ped of th e sess i on. It was always proposed at the tail '' f , the esti mates, and he thought the Government 'te " this on p urpose. The pet i t i ons aga i nst t h is had increased immensely of late. He did not P t6 Pose to divide the House because it would be u"less, but if any Hon. Member chose to do so, he should ertainly divide viith him d COLE wou ld di " vide the House on this vote, if he stool( ado-e, b Mr. REDDINGTON said it was not the fault of Mem t. !rs oo his side the House that this subject had nut been therto discussed. The Noble Lord, the Member for • Durh am, had long had a notice on the books on this sub ject, whi c h he had been afraid to bring forward. roa M ij :.. HU.NIE believed, notwithstanding all the attempts lato raise a prejudice on tits subject, that the great v i r ifY of the rople of England and Scotland were in , i nar of thie Grant. h dr . MORGAN J. O'CONNELL said this question V not be brought forward at such a late period last Pico', as the Gallant Officer seemed to imagine. 0 Lord CASTLEREAGH objected to thus vote be 46se he believed that the priests educated at Mar !moth, endeavoured to subvert the Established Church, and' 6Y. ee h linat messes he cou ld assure t h e H ouse t h ey h a d cause d liter ! t gin oppos i tion to this vote in the minds of many laqa 1 Protestants who had supported the measure of 1829 this feelin g was gradually increasing in Leland. ..ord MORPETH thought the vote was too scanty. p, would deny , ne e that after they had issued from Maynooth, other priesth d all ove r the word, some of then. w ould min i oo s . but a b gie in politics, a thing cert a in l y to be deplored, _ e elieved that while they remaieed at May nooth they weqrkeet studiously aloof from politics. ' PINCH snpported the vote. . As a Protestant Dis teeter he to v , thousht the Roman Catholics had a perfect right v . °llll . ip their Maker in their own wav—(Cneers—and u l f ' : nig that right it was but just to afford tin m the ) means pe iltre et i t ,„ p those who were afterwards to instruct the that ,: ---(en eefo—more especially when they remembered fe,, o ; ° "Y was voted by that House for the salaries of pro- Cityl ilt the of, coi (3t_he English Universities, from which the majo inhabitants of the country were excluded on ac- Q "' f the -tests imposed.—( Cheers ) .tra n ,, alit ._ „ers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Cora- L ee divided, when their appeared— For the Vote Again s t it The V Majority —44 ... O r Vote was then agreed to. A l i our readanission to the Gallery we found tile f t H UTTON on his legs, moving that the grant to h_, üblin Society be reduced to 3,0001. That Society ri:jettetae ken tio notice of the recommendation of the Corn' . so e i o , ; z nf that House, neither had they, like other p ar c• o 'es, brought their own property into account. A newt -Goo r this Vote was devoted to keeping up a general in terest s o' which he considered detrimental to the real , of the Seciety. prllord MORPETH hoped the Hon. Member would not b a e ct s s his motion to a division, for although the Society Covenrnot obeyed t h e recommendation of the House and the t h e Il leof, yet as h e b e li eved the institution conducehed Li.e. b enefit of th e i n h a bi tants of the I rish metropo l is t bound to support the Vote. "' l r. WYSE hoped th at t h e H en . M em b er f or D u bli n ~ uld ought th press hi s amendment to a division, but he thnot e House o ug h t to express i tse l f strong l y upon the c, subject. S ir 1-). NO RREYS su p porte d t h e amen d ment. I)i.. HUME thought the House ought to know what ~rOPerty this Soci ety h a d , and he would advise his Hon. thisrt end the Member f or D u bli n to d i v i de the House upon grant unless that information was giveu. ar' L • wd MORPETH believed the Society had some funds Was from private subscriptions, but what their amount hetvfts ha did not know. If the present grant was reduced, hought the inhabitants of Dublin would be deprived of I most useful amus-ment. Mr. RED INGTON would vote for the amendment of t he Hon. Member for Dublin. After a few words from Mr. F. BARING, the amend- Went was withdrawn and the vote was agreed to. 700/.was voted to defray the salaries of Commissioners of Bankrupts its Ireland. 1 ,950/. was voted to defray the expenses of the Royal Belfiet Academy. 17,1.80/.- was voted to defray the expenses of Public Works. in -Ireland. 22,3281. was voted to pay the salaries of the Chief Secretary and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. 12,3891. was voted to pay the Officers of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. 4,436/. was voted for the expenses of the office of Paernaster of the Civil Service. 4,150 4 was voted for defraying the charge of printing and Publishing Proclamations of the Statutes in Irelond. Ai On the vote of 3101/. far Nonc o nformist Prot es t an t nting Ministers in Ireland. Mr . HUME said they could not be Dissenters who took the public money —(a laugh)—and he should vote against the grant. Lord MORPETH defended the vote, and blushed to think that it was not a larger sum. ~,. -7r • P. HOWARD sa id, t h a t a l t h oug h H on . Gentle -6n Opplite haggled about voti n g 8,0001. a year to the Catholics, the' House voted this sum annually without a dissenting voice being raised. Mr. HUME—I beg your pardon—(Laughter.) , Calon e l PERCE VAL said, the Hon. Member for K 1 1- ~.`e n Y ought to have said that the Dissenters objected to pay -uoney, elld not to take it.—( Laughter.) Th e v ote was then agreed to. On the grant of 60,0001. for criminal prosecutions, Colonel PE RCE VAL inquired the number of offences anti convictions at the two last assizes for Tipperary. ~ Ms. PIGOTT could not state the exact number, but Lew convictions were greater in proportion than in former Y e t's. 's The vote was 6,000/. less than last year. .., he tote was then agreed to, as were the following : 33 . 1 63/..l''or the Metropolitan Police, Dublin. 3 .144 f o p elle Board of Public Works, Ireland. 7 ,0001. f or town surveys in Ireland. be 7, 14 2/: ids for the Commission for reporting upon the 'Atom 'of railways in Ireland. t t " 9 . 9 00/. for foreign and secret service money. 208 ,51.7/. for stationery, printing, &c., in the several de- Partmentein En7tend, Scotland, Ireland, and the colonies. 16.0004 for la w charges. 66 .6604 for the c on vict hulk establi s hme n t. and 235,0001. for maint a ining co nv icts i n Ne w South Wales Van Dimenen's Land. 25,000/. f oe the expenses of the emancipated negroes an d captured Vticans. tvico r 1 " d 90 /. for binJing, repairing, and indexing the public 31,000/, for the exp eases of Revising Barristers. 0f 11,30 0 / . for Sheriff's expenses, formerly defrayed cut • , the civil contingencies. 89,99 0/• for charges in, aid of County-rates. 15,0004 for the Polish ReNgees. . 5 .8124 to the Trustees of -the British Museum, for t' a ' e of Dr. Mantel's Cabinet of Geology, and of ,g yp tia n Antiquities. On the sum of 7,350/. being proposed for the purchase ,4 p i ctures for th e N at i onal Gallery, Mr. HUME asked on whose authority and by whose rt ' co mmendation the receat purchases had been made. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER %night tnere could be no difference of opinion as to the roc sent • purchase of 'the only undoubted Raphael the i GNllery possess e d. I le had ascertained that a similar sum 1514 bees offered for the picture by the Pa ussian Govern• meat, but that they were unable to complete the purchase, ''„'ld therefore he h a d se i ze d the opportunity to secure it for "e National Gallery. He had the highest-authority for t asking the purchase, and one of the Trustees of the Nc.ttiontd Gallery had offered, if the country did not pur aeelaase it, to purchase it himself at the price which was not d by the se ll er, but was the price effered by the agen t for Prussia. Mr. WYSE said the authority of Mr. Greentham was " e q! high authority in favour of the picture. He had ueen it in the collection of Mr. Beckford, who he knew had been offered a much higher price for the pic l6te than, had been given for it by the country. But he t hought it was d esirable as it might not always possess a C hancellor of the Exchequer who was a judge of works of 't--that,the House should be informed on whose recom mendations these purchases for the National Gallery were made- The present was a most valuable purchase, as it would tend'greatly, to the improvement of the school of art . ..in tliis country;,: . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER bad ft it besioted in this instance to take the responsibility Al 'on himself of making this purchase. An HON. MEMBER thought the House and the coun'ry cinght to feel grateful to the Right Hon. Gentleman for t he promptness and decision with which he had acted. The vote was then agreed to. On the sum of 87,4811 being proposed to liquidate the LA mulish claims, Mr. HUTT could not permit this vote to pass, without to; tking a few observations otl the conduc t of the Chancel _ l le :I 'of the Exchequer, relative to th ese claims. He con li eyed the conduct of that Right Hon. Gent. totally un (;l'.lled for and unworthy of him or the high station he held. , What was the course that had been pursued by Mr. p uce. L ' al. under similar circumstances ? Why, he stated that ' si did not like the vote, bet if the House . of Commons , v '''ste aoinst him he would agree to it.. Inth e present in. n."e 4l .t:Ae House of Commons had twice . divided in favour ; ' toe claims; and, in spite of that, the Right Hon. Gent. "fiased to bring the subject forward as a money vote, on 1 technical grounds. I 'be CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. had 2.1)1135ed th e mot i on that had been ma d e o n this subject, ,00 s use h e considered the mode in w hi c h they bad been ° re light for war d moat unusual. Th e Commission had been crdered to adjudicate upon the claims. ltr. WILLIAMS wished to know whether the sum Chat was now to be voted would be sufficient to pay the tktrnaeintler of the claims? The CHAN CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sa id t 2 The it wo u ld no t. The present claims amounted to a t i;_l'it. sum, but h e was in hopes it would be reduced by uo. adjudicati on o f the Commissioners. b a h'. HODSON HINDE regretted that some means i ;, . not been adopted to bring the matter before the Was I;,sOffat tin a Proper shape. It was extremely absurd it l it ic t the Commissioners to adjudicate on claims which it the intention of the Government to satisfy. illasseemese..— ~reh; The vote was then agreed to. The folowing vums were also voted :- 50,000/. frr defraying the expense of steam communica ticn to India, by way of the Red Sea. 8 s•2nnl. for defraying the expense of the Civil Establish ment on the Bahama Island. 4,0491. for defraying the charge of the Civil Establish ment in Bermuda. 3.0701, for defraying the Civil, Establishment on Prince Edward's bland. 9,980/. for defraying the expence of the Civil Esta blishments in Western Africa. 9,700/. for defraying the expenses of the Civil Esta blishment in Western Australia. 11,790/. for the support of Ecclesiastial Establishments in the British North American Provinces. 18,895/. for defraying the charge of the establishment and pensions in the Indian Department of Upper and Lower Canada. 18,667/. for the salaries of the Governor, Lieutenant- Governor, and other officers in the West India Colonies, 4,1631. for the Civil Establishment in Heligoland. 58,700/. for the salaries and allowances of Stipendiary Justices in the West Indies and the Mauritius. _ 30,0001. for Local Establishments, and for giving in struction to the emancipated negroes. 3,5401. for defrayi;:g the expenses of the agents for Emigration. 16,0601. for the Civil Establishment in St. Helena. 2.4001. for the Civil Government of Nova Scotia. 6,0631. for the repair and maintenance of the Prideaux Canal. 10,2501. for the new buildings at the British Museum. 3 5001. for repairing the damage at Portpatrick Harbour. 25.0001. fur erecting a model prison. 4 7001. for the University of London. 1.3001. for the School of Design at Slmersct House. Mr. WYSE dwelt upon the great importance of a Na tional School of Design, a,:d abovo all, of giving therein every facility for the study of the human fl;,ure. The vote was agreed to, ac: wa► a vote of 8,5001. for the experiss of the Po, r-law Commission. On the next vote of 12,0001. for the Metropolitan Police, Mr. T. DUNCOMBE asked why the country should be put to the expense of paying fur police sent down to keep the race in various disircts, which should them selves meet the expense of the assistance they required. Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not desira'ble to weaken the police force, whose duties in the mc tcopolis were suf ficiently onerous,—( Hear, hear,)—therefore he had au. thorised the adding 100 men to the force to answer their country's demands. Mr. DLT NCOM BE said it was equivalent to sending soldiers—why not the districts pay for them? Lord J. RUSSELL said the policemen were sworn in often as special constables, to preserve the peace in country places, sometimes there might be a necessity for two or three msn to aid in an investigation, or take measures of precauti ,n—to send two soldiers would be rather an ex traordinary force—( Loud laughter)—whereas the two policemen would be aisiplv sufficient, and in a vast number of cases had been instrumental in preventing riots.— ( Hear, hear.) Alderman THOM PSON suggested the formation of a a supernumerary police force for county service. Lord J RUSSELL said that was in effect the object of this vote. Mr. WILLIAMS considered the vote hardly made out, 12,0001. for 100 extra men was quite inexplicable. Send ing down policemen to the mauufacturing districts was cne of the surest methods of causing - disturbances. He trusted the lion. Member fur Finsbury would divide against the vote. Mr. AGLIONBY did not know that the amount of the vote had been justified, though he did certainly ap spove of its object. Lord J. RUSS E LL said rather more than 5,0001. would be sufficient for 100 men. He undoubt. dly hoped the whole of the remainder would not be expended.—( Hear, bear.) But there were many indefinite expenses : for in stance, he had sent twenty men to guard a barracks, think ing it expedient to divide the soldiery into very smal. parties.—( Hear, hear,) Mr. WALLACE could not conceive a better disposi tion of a police for;e than placing them at the disposal of the Home Office for occasional service—an fur assisting less dtsciened local forces.—( Hear, hear. ) Mr. O'CONNE L L considered nothing could be better than having a police force at the disposal of the Home Office—always ready to be sent down to various parts of the country to prevent disturbances, tnereby avoiding the otherwise necessary expense, and greater expense of numerous local forces, less efficient. (Loud cries of Hear, bear.") Roformers should be most anxious to have an efficient police system to prevent those riots. which more than anything else retarded the progress of public opinion. —(Hear, hear.) Besides, this employ ment of the police was far less objectionable and uncon stioltional than the calling- in of the military.—( Hear, hear.) He had been glad to find that not only on the evidence of the policemen themselves employed lately at Birmingham, but on the tacit admission of the parties at the Warwick trials—the conduct of the policemen had been most forbearing and commendable.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. D'ISR AE LI said the Government should g',ve the House a full exposition of the state of the country— ( Ironical cries of " Hear, hear") S—and not ask votes piece-meal, and disguising their real motives, at the close of the dog-days—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Lord J. RUSSELL would not say more than a word to the very singular display of the Hon. Member for Maidstone.--( A laugh.) The Government had, not long ago, given to the House that full exposition of the state of the country which the Hon. Member desired, and which, singularly enough, he did not seem to have heard.— ( Laugh ter. ) Mr. T. PARKER considered the course which the Noble Lord had pursued quite constitutional and highly beneficial to the country.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. DUNCOM BE agreed in the importance of every district having an efficient police; but thought that police should be under local management.—( Hear, hear.) It was, however, no use to divide.—( A laugh.) Mr. M. PHILLIPS supported the vote, but coincid ed in the general propriety of placing local police under local management. The vote was agreed to. The next vote was 22,5001 for compensation on account of two American slave ships, wrecked on the Bahamas—the slaves having been seized by the Collector of British Customs. Sir S. LUSHINGTON said the ground on which this vote was proposed, had been that the seizure took place at a time when slavery existed in the British Colonies; and that therefore the seizure was inequitable. He enter tained, however, considerable doubt of the propriety of the vote, because the slaves having touched British soil were ipso facto free. The arrangement had been concluded with the American Ambassador, but though the case could never occur again he wished it to be distinctly understood that this country, with all others, had the clear right to form laws affecting any persons coming upon its territory. —(Hear, hear.) And that now, no slave could touch the soil of any portion of our dominions, without acquiring freedom.--( Hear, hear.) He would take this opportunity of informing the country of the horrors of slavery now per petrating in some of the American States, where rewards were advertised for negroes, who shall be brought in "dead or alive." It was fair, however, to state at the same time, that in the Northern States, the greatest efforts were making to rid America of this foul blot on the escutcheon of her boasted freedom.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL said, if he thought the case could ever occur again, he would divide against the vote. He was pleased iii reflecting that now, throughout the British dominions, slavery could not exist.—( Hear, hear.) He wished, however, to protest against this country acknow ledging the flag of that nest of robbers—of land-pirates, the Texians, who had attacked our allies, the Mexicans, and established a republic, of which, strange to say, sla very was to be an essential element, bartering for their slaves with the yet more disgraced Americans.—( Hear, hear.) He regretted also to learn that in the other House a measure had been rejected, the object of which was to protect our officers and sailors in the execution of our treaties for the prevention of the horrible slave trade now carried on in Portuguese vessels, under the protection of the American flag, and with fraudulent American papers, as a cover.—( Hear. hear. ) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER con firmed the statement of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that such a vote as the present could not possibly occur again. He trusted, therefore, there would be no objection to the measure. Mr. HUME did not think a case was made out for the vote. He wished to know whether any American vessels in the slavelrade bad been captured by British cruisers? Mr. WOOD was understood to say that two American slave ships were captured on the American coast. The vote was agreed to ; as also 1,000,000/, for the expenses of the army in Canada. The next voto was 176,9071. for the disembodied militia. Several other items being allowed, The House then resumed. ADMIRALTY COURTS BILL. _ _ . The Airt;i;:al;; - (;;Trt; Bill was ►then read a third time. On the motion for its passing, Mr. HUNIE said that proceeding on the ruthority of air John Nicholl, he should move that the salary of the Judge be fixed at 3,000/. 11r. C. WOOD opposed it. The House divided ; there were— For the original salary 47 Against it... l6 Majority 3l Mr. HUME then moved that the Judge of the Mini ralty Court should be excluded from Parliament after the present were dissolved. Captain PEC H ELL opposed it. He hoped his Right Hon. Friend would continue in that House, and that they should soon have the fees of that Court revised. Mr. O'CONNELL opposed it. The House divided on the question— For the motion 2O Against it Majority against it 2l The Bill then passed. METROPOLIS IMPROVEMENTS. The House then went into Committee on the Metropolis Improvements, and a sum of 200,0001. was granted for that object, to be secured on duty on coal. The Sale of Spirits' (Ireland) Bill was read a third time. On the question that the Bill do pass, Mr. O'CONNELL proposed to add a clauseb y way of rider, t o ena bl e grocers i n I relan d to se ll sp i r it s. Mr. SHAW objected to the clause ; he thou ght that that no syst em could be, or head been, more pern icious allowi ng grocers to turn their premises into dram shops . Lord M ORPETH observed that the objection in po i nt of fact came with a bad grace from the Hon. and Lear n edint Gentl eman oPposite, because he had introduced a clause , the evils of w hi ch it was now desired to remedy at a pre cisely similar stage of a former measure. He supported the clause, as remedying an evil inflicted on a deserving &ass of persons by a former enactment. He thought the claMr. use perfectly co mpatible with t h e prov i s i ons o f t h e Bill. SON Mr. REDINGTON opposed the cl ause . said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite had introduced his clause by a gross act of smuggling, he should support the clause proposed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. 'f tic Or feet of the measure had been to convert the grocers into mere fir I-I P, 811N-4-LONDON- whiskey seliels. He only regretted that the propoei viLOm did eat go further. Mr. PIGOTT had a p_tition to present from Clonmel signed by respectable men of all parties, seeking a change in the present lew which had driven the trade into places where the publicans were less undet the obscr.. vation of the public and the plice. Mr. SHIEL had two petitions to present in favour of the clause, Colonel PERCEVAL thought the law as it at pre sent stood was most beneficial. Mr. HUME had present:d a petition from Kilkenrr in favour cf this clause. The House then divided, %hen there appearel For the Clause te• Against it , Majority in favour of the clause _ _ The clause was then brought up, and after a few words from Mr. Shaw, Lord Morpeth, and Mr. O'Co4nell, was read a first time. On the motion that the clause be read a sPcond time ; the House again divided, For the second reading Against it... . ... Majority for the second reading .... —24 The clause was then read a third time, and added to the Bill by way of rider. The Bill then passed. On the bringing up of the first report of supply, Mr. WALLACE moved—That a Commission be ap pointed to inquire into the following : 1. la how far it is requisite to continue the service of thirteen judges in the Supreme Courts of Scotland, at the high salaries lately conferred, which judges have vacations which pre clude their sitting during seven months of the year, thereby enhancing enormously the cost of litigation, by restricting their services to about five months out of tho twelve. 2. Whether thirty stipendiary county judges, which judges nominate and appoint fifty-two stipendiary deputy judges, making together eighty-two judges paid out of the Exchequer, for administering justice in the thirty-three counties into which Scotland is divided, are really required for a population of about two and a half millions; which population has borough courts ' in every town, awl justice of peace courts and quarter sessions in every county, besides the ninety-five stipendiary judges officiating in the supreme and county courts. 3 As to the best means of improving jury trial in Scotland. 4 As to the expediency of extending circuits by the judges of the Supreme Court, who although thirteen in number, hold circuit courts in nine towns only in all Scotland. 5. As to the expediency of cir cuits being made by a certain number of the thirty nearly sinecure Stipendiary County Judges, unhap pily still inflicted on Scotland. 6. As to the present prac tice in police, and similar summary convictions fur small offences. 7. As to the present procedure in criminal cases before the Court of Justiciary and Sheriff Courts. 8. Whether the law of Scotland requires or enjoins the present irrational practice, in all Seotch Courts, of conducting legal proceedings in writing, instead of viva voce. Mr. FOX MAUL E did not agree with those resolu- ' tions, but he would promise his Hon. and Learned Friend that all reasonable reforms in the administration of justice in Scotland should be proceeded with. The motion etas negatived without a division. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and :he House adjourned at Two o'Clock, until twelvethis day. HOUSE OF LORDS, Avousa 5. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at Five o'Clock. The Bishop of LONDON presented petitions on the subject of delivery of letters on the Lord's Day, the Church in the Colonies, against the National System of Education as proposed by the Privy Council, and as to travelling on the Sabbath day. LONDON AND BLACKWALL COMMER CIAL RAILWAY BILL. Lord STUART DE ROTHSAY moved the Order of the Day for the third reading, with amendments, of the London and Black wall Commercial Railway Bill. The Duke of WELLINGTON did not wish to offer any opposition to the passing of this Bill, provided it was the wish of the House to press it. At the same time he did not think the Report of the Committee upon the Bill was so full as it ought to be. on a measure of so much importance as this was. Especially he com plained that there was no outlet from the railway to the river, and he would put it to the Noble Lord to postpone the third reading of this Bill till to-morrow, on the ground that that might be enquired into a little more. The Marquis of CONYNGHAM had sat on the Committee for fifteen days, and he could assure the Noble Duke that from what had taken place he knew the objection would be removed by a communication being made in a very short time from the railway to the river. The Bishop of LONDON said he had objected to the second reading of this Bill on the ground that it would be an encouragement to travelling out of the city of London on the Lord's day. He was informed that that objection had been removed by the introduction of a clause which prohibited travelling on Sundays, so far as the extension of the line went, and therefore be had no more to say against a public undertaking of this description. After a few words from the Earl of GLENGALL it was agreed that the third reading should be postponed till to-morrow. Lord HATHERTON presented a petition from Ireland against the Spirit Licensing system ; and also several petitions praying the House to take into consi deration the law aff,•cting the Church in Scotland. Lord LICHFIELD presented a petition praying for the immediate adoption of a penny postage. The Marquis of NORM ANBY laid on the table certain returns. The NOBLE MARQUIS then presented a petition from Galway, praying that the petitioners might not be excluded from Schedale A in the Muni. cipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill now . before Par liament. This petition the Noble Marquis considered justified his assertion made on a former occasion, that the sentiments represented by some Noble Lords on the opposite side of the House were not universally en tertained in Galway. Lord FITZGERALD and VECI thought that he had made no statement on this subject which was not well founded. Lord CH ARLEVILLE having looked at the peti tion, observed that there were no signatures on the sheet on which the petition was written—that they had been merely appended to it, and that, therefore, it could not be received. The Marquis of NORMANBY had only received it this morning, and had not looked at it until he had opened it to present it. He admitted the informality, and withdrew the petition. A Message from the House of Commons brought up several Bills. Lord DUNCANNON presented petitions from De von and Montrose, praying for a penny postage. The NOBLE LORD laid on the table certain returns. PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) BILL, Lord GORT presented a petition from the farmers and land-owner 3 of the .County of Limerick. on the subject of the Public Works (Ireland) Bill. Lord DUNCANNON moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Bill. The first object of the Bill was to extend an Act of last Ses sion, making 50,000/. granted last Session applicable to the same purposes for which the first sum had been granted. The next was to remedy certain technical defects in a former Act of Parliament. And another object was to give the power of compelling the payment of instalments of money that had been advanced, and which were due under the Cholera and other Acts, but powers of compelling the re-payment of which had expired. After a few observations from the Marquis of West meath, Earl Wicklow, the Marquis of Lansdowne, and Lord Fitzgerald and Vesey, the Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday. Upon the motion of the Bi-ohop of LONDON, the amendments of the House of Commons to the Ecele• siastical Districts Bill were agreed to. Lord HOLLAND, in answer to a question put by Lord Lyndhurst, respecting a Committee that had been appointed about three years ago, to inquire into certain matters connected with the Duchy of Lancaster, said that no Report had yet been made, but that there could be no objection to the Report being laid on the table as soon as it should be made. CHARTISTS. Lord WILTON desired to call the attention of the Noble Viscount opposite, to certain proceedings that had taken place at Stockport and Bolton by the Chart ists. In the former place there bad been large meetings of those persons, and on the Sunday before last they had actually forcibly taken possession of the parish church, destroying the books and pews, and had re peated that outrage again yesterday, without, as far as he was aware, any steps having been taken to punish the offenders. Again, at Bolton for several days past the walls there had been covered with pla cards, one of which he held in his hand, signed by per sons of the names of Taylor and Hartwell, who called themselves the Chairman and Secretary of the Society, and with respect to whom nothing had been done Part of the placard was to the following effect ;—" That the Convention bad beard, with feelings of inexpressible indignation, the statement 44id to have been made last night in the House of Commons, by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, relative to the neces sity and propriety of employing the metropolitan police force, in various parts of the country, for the suppres sion of public meetings of the people peaceably con ducting themselves ; and the further statement of the same Minister in reference to the bloody attack of the police on the people of Birmingham And this Con vention was of opinion that wherever persons peaceably assembled were so assailed, they sere justified by every principle founded on the law of self-preservation. in meeting force by force, even to the slaying of those who were guilty of such atrocious assault's 00 the merit men; of their Convention." Now all that had been done by Lord Jahn Russell was to write a letter to the Magistrates, in which he advised that they should pro ceed against persons guilty of such pra.etiees as persons guilty of a misdemeanour, whereas in his (Lord W's) taken for the preserv a ti on o f t h e pu bli c judement some more active and energetie measures ought to be peace . He co uld p.ssure . the N o bl e Vi scount t h at h e m entioned this with no feeling of :I; n,estinty towards the Noble Viscount or her Majesty' s GoVernycent. lde was going to M 2 nchester this very night, and if he could assist in furnishing the Noble Viscount with any accu- TETFSDAV, AUGUST 6, 1839. rate :slid useful information upon the state of the north• ern part of England he sheuld have much satis!action in doieg so, and he hoped it would be received in the same spirit in which it should he commu nicated : arld whatever might be done by Government with the view of suppressing the disturbances of the disAfeeted, be was quite sure t h e N o bl e Viscount might depend on the active support of the great bulk of the well-disposed people in tho se t rou bl e d districts. Lord MELBOURNE gave the Noble Lord great credit for the genuine and candid mann..-r in which he had Made. his statement, and he was quite confident that . T Whatever measures her Majesty's Ministers Might adopt to preserve the peace and prevent d;stur hances, they would have the active .support of the Noble Lord, and not only of him, but of every Member of their Lordships' House, as well as of the thinking portion of the British community.—( Cheers.) He was perfectly aware that proceedings of the dangerous, formidable, and alarming character to which the Noble Lord had alluded had taken place, and he was aware that many parts of the country in that respect were in a state by no means satisfactory ; on the contrary, that they were pregnant with that which could not but excite considerable apprehensions. He was not ignorant of what had taken place at Stockport, and which he could not but regret. With respect to the placard, the Noble Lord had not read the whole of it, but it was very artfully worded. It stated that if an unprovoked attack was made upon the people peaceably assembled, there was a right in the people to resist that attack by force. Now he did not exactly know how that was to he contradicted. But he agreed that the object of that placard was unquestionably to urge to a resistance, and to a violation of the public peace. At the same time he begged to observe that with the legal powers that existed in this country of freedom of speech in every man, in order to be extremely inflam matory, and in order to excite the greatest violence and crime, it was by no means necessary to break the law, It was not so entirely the breach and violation of the law that was to be feared as it was the use, the abuse, and the pushing to the utmost those powers and privileges which the people legally possessed. The Noble Lord had urged him to take some stronger measures on the subject than had already been taken under the direction of his Noble Friend the Secretary of State, for the Home Department. He did not know what stronger measures it was possible for a Government to take, or what greater securities could be counted upon. The military force of that part of the country had been very considerably augMented, and means had been taken to inform the Magistrates that every exertion should be made to support them in their efforts to pre serve the public peace. It was quite impossible in every part of the country where danger might be appre hended, to have a force stationed which should at once be able to represS any disturbance ; all that could be done was to use the force that was available, in the most speedy and. efficient manner, according to the danger that presented itself. The Marquis-of LONDONDERRY wished to know if the Goveinment had set their faces against arising a yeomariry corps in the disturbed districts, to aid in suppressing outbreaks, and if any additional force was intended to be ,sent to Stockport Lord MELBOURNE understood that a despatch had been sent off ordering a military force into Stock port. It was certainly the intention of her Majesty's Ministers to set their faces against raising yeomanry corps generally to preserve the peace ; but it was im possible for him to pledge himself as to what might in Any particular instance, at any particular time, be ne cessary to be done. In answer to a question from Lord C H ARLEN' I LLE, . Lord DUNCANNON said he was informed that it would be impossible to lay on the table the medical certificates respecting the health of prisoners tried at Tullamore, which the Noble Lord had moved for in February, last, in the terms of that motion, as the state of the books that had been kept would not supply the information. Lord CHARLEVILLE said that he knew that some of them, one in particular relating to a convict of the name of Coghlan, could be produced. The Marquis of NOR MAN BY said there could be no objection whatever to the production of any that existed. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND) BILL. Lord MELBOURNE moved the Order of the Dly for the third reading of the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill. The Marquis of CON VNGHAM, after a few observations, said that England and Scotland had obtained their full measure of reform in their Corporations—why, then, should Ireland be so treated as she was in this Bill. As an Irishman he protested against the Bill, in what was called its amended shape, and he deeply regretted that their Lordships had not taken tkat opportunity of set ting at rest that long discussed and much wished for reform. The Earl of HADDINGTON said the refusal of that much wished for and long discussed measure did not rest with their Lordsbips, but with those who re fused to accept it.—(Hear, hear.) He was one of those who entirely concurred in the first proposition which had been made upon the subject. He agreed that the Corporations should be abolished, but he did not think that society in that country was in a fit state to reconstruct others. He regretted that it was im possible to adhere to that determination, but they had not been supported by public opinion in such a manner as to allow them to do so. They had now passeci a Tithe Bill, and he hoped that quetioa was satisfactorily ie t tleiliutsheey was had o , i i ?ionwg to a s!'totioc the r-lt w i nquestion operation, o t an that d Muni cipal Corporations by the Bill which they were about to pass, according to the best of their wisdom. He would beg to remind the Noble Marquis who had spoken last, that the municipal franchise for Scotland was the 101. Parliamentary franchise. Would he be willing to accept the same for Ireland ? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it was not quite correct to say th a t t h e i r L ordsh i ps ha d d one a ll that was in their power to settle the question of Muni cipal Reform for Ireland. Their Lordships had seen it proper to adopt on e amen d ment which he had reason to believe would not be a ccepte d b y t h e ot h er H ouse o f Parliament—in fact, one which had rendered it impos sible for them to receive it. He would not say that the intention of those who proposed and supported that amendment was to defeat the Bill, but such he feared would be the effect of it. Lord FITZGERALD awl VESCI had good reason for believing that the opinion of the Noble Marquis was erroneous; and he spoke upon the authority of one who was a high authority upon such a question, and he said the amendment alluded to was no breach of the pri vileges of the House of Commons. He for one could never consent to take from the Grand Jury, an old and recognised body, the pow er to l evy rates , an d g i ve it t o a new body. That was a power which most certainly was in their Lordships' discretion. He could quote va rious precedents for their Lordships taking such a course ; but on those occasions, probably, it was not thought necessary to find out a pretext upon which to hang the rejection of a Bill. He could not allow the Noble Marquis to monopolize the whole f e eling for the welfare of Ireland—ha bad as deep a feeling for the welfare of that island as the Noble Marquis, though he took a different view of the means of benefiting the country of his birth. The Noble Viscount now said the amendment which took the appointment of the Sheriffs from the Town Councils was an insuperable objection to the Bill—yet the first Bill which was offered for their Lordship's considera tion retained that power in the Crown. Why, then, was not t h ereitnos,raul an insuperable objection to the Bill, if it was The Marquis of CONYNG HAM explained. He had no wish to arrogate to himself all feeling for Ire land. What he said was, that as an Irishman be EL t ß ak O en U w ß i N th E th s e aid piii the very Nobly Lord iy. T h h ad e stated deeply regretred•the course t hei r L or d s hips h a d a d o pt e d with respect to the Bill. a lt te l ( s l e t o l u le course Viscount MELBOURNE Bill was introduced in the other House, giving the power to the Town-Council to appoint the Sheriffs but it was altered in that House ; and when it came up to th.•ir Lordships it contained no such porer—the ap pointment of Sheriffs being vested in the Crown. He had not stated that the amendment w as an indispensible objection to the Bill, but that it wa s a strong one ; and he thought so still. On gener al p rinci ples he would concur in the vesting the appointment of Sheriffs in the Crown ; but under present circumstances—under the circumstances in which Ireland was placed—he thought it not only expedient, but prudent, to vest that right in the Town Councils. Viscount GO RT requested tbeirLordships not to sup port which would be legislating a measurefor interested agitators, whose aim it was t o se p arate Ir eland from this independent noingh am w hi c h, t g he Noble the pro , c pe o ao u ts ie n od t o r .yc, Corporations p u 1 00 ri t al o l toi nsot rsa tiinto establish totb tethheee toe oi iformevils nes e off o r fiß intonltrreo land, unn cdi ,n w as a flourishi ng town, b ut which since then, had been in volved in danger and bVeifsocroeunittsrieefeerorrepteirattoionth, e ca: e i r tur moil, between the Radicals and the Chartists, and had p ; and uire still augmented forces to k ee _ the people t „t o „a b ol e d k r e e p ci t in cheek by the militar d y an the police in order. The Duke of WELLINGTON suggested that it would be better to withdraw the Bill at once than send it down again to the House 9f Commons. The question was 000 put, an 4 1 e DM was read a third time and passed. PENNY POSTACit. After the presentation of several petitions in favour . _ of this [measure, viscount ALF.,I4BOUIiNE rose to Move the second reading of the Bill. It was, he rema r k e d , a Bill w hi c h would give the Treasury much larger powers, with respect t? communication by l etter s , than th a t depart meot at pre4er4 posceP94. Ztwould enable them to diminish thc, rate a 61ifirgL3 An iPtter:4, to depart from the present system 4 Charging , 13 .3' WkigLt, awl tp re•! organise the whole system of Parliamentary and official freaking. Considering the objects of the measure which theii• Lorcishio V‘' ,. t . ,cal-ed upon to sanction, this Bill must be 'regarded as one of the greatest im portanec. It would establish an uniform rate of postage, with perhaps the addition of demanding that the letters should be paid for in the first instance, but it was more likely that persons would be allowed to exercise the option of paying for letters on transmitting them or on receiving them. From the petitions that had been presented in both Houses, from the Reports that had been laid be fore.them, and from the discussions that had taken place in the other House, he concluded that the objects of the measure, and the advantages expected to result from it, must necessarily be familiarly known to almost all of their Lordships. He believed the genera! advan tages that would result from the measure were admitted by all who had spoken upon it—aven by those who had the greatest doubts of its practicability under the pre sent circumstances of the country. No doubt, as re garded commercial intercourse, the diffusion of know ledge, and the interchange of social feeling=, the ad vantage to be derived from a more easy communication by letter between different parts of the country, and between the empire itself and foreign nations, would be in the highest degree beneficial. To illustrate the ad vantages of increased facilities of internal communica tion, he could not refer to higher authority than the Noble Lord (Ashburton) opposite, who stated in his evidence before the Parliamentary Committee, " I always thought the duty on the means of communicat ing information to be one of the worst of our taxes. Unfortunately, many of our taxes are injurious, but there is none so injurious as a tax upon letters. It is a tax upon the conversation of people at a distance. You might as well tax the words spoken between men on the Royal Exchange, as the communication by letters that take place between people residing in Manchester, Liver pool, London, or any other places."—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He ( Lord Melbourne) certainly could not go to such a length. He did not think that the post age was the most infamous of our taxes ; indeed it savour ed a little of the Noble Lord's characteristic finesse and subtlety when he said it is just the same to tax the con versation between pesple at the Royal Exchange as the correspondence in letters between Liverpool and Lon don.—(Laughter.) But he quite agreed with the prin ciple advocated by the Noble Lord and by others. The evils of the present tax, and the advantages that would accrue from its removal, were in all probability exaggerated ; but at the same time it would be impossible not to admit that very great ad vantages would result in a commercial and so cial view from rendering the means of correspondence more easy than they wee now. They should also con sider the extent to which the payment of the duty was now evaded by illicit and contraband conveyances of letters, to put a stop to which it was absolutely neces sary that the present rates should be reduced, and that to a very great amount, perhaps, by not less than that contemplated by this measure, or the well organized system of illicit correspondence now at work, almost with perfect safety, would not be given up. Upon the ground of securing the collection of the revenue in let ters, he thought their Lordships ought to support this measure. All nations, but more particularly this nation, bad made the post a source of revenue. Indeed, when a few hundred thousand pounds were likely to be wanted, he had heard a Right Hon. Friend of his say, " Oh, the letters will bear another penny !"—(Laughter.) In legislating on the present question, their Lordships would deal with a very large portion of the revenue of the country. Widely different views had already been advanced upon this measure. On one side there were the most sanguine calculations, that, by the reduction of the postage to one penny, the quantity of letters would be increased to such an immense extent, that any appa rent deficiency in the revenue would be made up. On the other side, it was averred that the whole of the re venue derived from the Post-office, about 2,200,0001., was at stake, and that if this measure were carried, that amount, lost by its operation, would have to be supplied by the finances of the country out of the public funds. Both views, he (Lord M.) had no doubt, were ex aggerated—even the most sanguine calculations of the gentleman who was the author of the measure did not go beyond saying that the present number of letters would be quintupled, and then there would be a loss of 300,0001. to the Revenue. He (Lord M.) would not venture any prediction, but he had very great doubt as to whether the increase of the letters would make up what the Revenue would Ilse. Therefore, they had called upon Parliament, and Parliament had responded by a pledge, that it would make up any loss the Revenue might sustain. Their Lordships were now in possession of a statement of the income and expenditure of the country ; lie believed they had also had before them an estimate, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of what the Revenue for some years to come was likely to be. Unquestionably, for the two last years the ex penditure bad exceeded the income—not because the latter had fallen off, but because the former had in creased. But he thought that a surplus or a deficiency of 300,0001. or 400,0001. should not be a matter to excite either joy or despondency when we considered the fluctuations that must take place in the course of the immense concerns in which this country was engaged, and when we regarded and compared the extent of its commerce and its monetary system, its trade, its specu lations and its enterprise, amidst such vast affairs, alternations from prosperity to adversity, and from ad versity to prosperity, must be looked for as unavoidable and inherent in the nature of things, and one which we could not render equable or certain. From the speeches that had lately been made before both Houses, he feared it was more likely that our expenses would be increased th ewHear.}jeer," from the Duke of Wellington.) The Nobl e • Ditle — had - been con tinually pressing on them arguments of very great weight on the inadequacy of the naval and military es tablishments of the country. The Noble Baron oppo site, in alluding to the affairs of Canada the other night, strongly insisted, on a principle not easily refuted, upon measures which would cause a considerable outlay of public money. Tue Noble Lord, the Member for Li verpool, in the other House, had, in his own name, a most respectable authority, and also in the name of a most influential and important body, stated that in the next Session he should submit to the con sideration of Parliament a measure for obtain ing some assistance to enable the Church of Eng land the better to discharge its duties to the public. Noble Lords opposite connected with Scotland were always pressing with great force some measure with re spect to Scotland, and on adverting the other day to those sources of information that told them of what passed in both Houses of Parliament, he (Lord Mel bourne) saw that a Right Hon. Gentleman in the other House, a person of great influence, had said that he trusted the day was not far distant when, in the most conspicuous part of the metropolis, a splendid esta blishment would be erected for the purpose of collect ing pictures and statues. These were the principal ob jects that were being continually pressed for, besides a hundred oth, rs, many of them very sound and reason able, all of them very specious and captivating. The disposition of Parliament continually to press for changes and improvements, was one unquestionably not favourable to public economy. With respect to increas ing our naval establishments, be would not on the pre sent occasion say more than that was the first thing to be considered, because it related to the maintenance of the integrity of the empire and the security of the coun try. With respect to those matters of religion, he also considered they were deserving of the greatest possible attention ; but at the same time with respet to them he thought it was necessary to consider what was practicable and what was not ; and whether the evils which these parties sought to remedy were greater than the evils which would be produced by any great and onerous application of capital to those purposes. He wished the other House would look more to the general finances of the country, and not each man to be so fond of his own particular object, Well, then, with respect to this mea sure, it had been said, how can you venture to tamper with so large an amount of the public revenue ?—( Hear.) He certainly felt the force of that argument, but his answer to it was this : —ln the first place there was a general con currence of all parties in demanding a measure of this nature. That demand could not be resisted with success, and the feeling on this subject was so strong that it corn vlied those in the other House who generally acted with Noble Lords opposite, to do that which they were, of course, extremely unwilling to do—to make it an " open question."—( Hear, and a laugh.) There were " open questions" on one side of the House as well as the other. He believed nothn t s was so unparliamentary as to call one body in the House " The Opposition," besause that would imply that there was one body bound together in the spirit of opposition ; but it was found that persons did act together, and that among those persons there were what was called " open questions." But the other side of the House did not call them " open ques tions"—they said very delicately, " this is not a party question"—( Laughter)—and when that was declared, then gentlemen were enabled to declare what were their feelings and opinions, and what were the feei ings and opinions of their constituents. When, there fore, their Lordships considered the measure was in itself a good measure, and attended with great benefit and advan tage, and when they found it was supported by persons of all parties, of all characters, and of all descriptions, he did think it was fit to trust to the pledge of Parliament, that they would give those powers necessary for carrying into effect this measure. He believed the measure would prove beneficial to the country ; and if it did increase the general prosperity of the country, it would unquestionably be of advantage, even if they should substitute a tax which might appear more burthensome. And that, were the an_ swer to be given to the short question put by a Noble Lord opposite, that if this tax were repealed where would they find another that would be less burtbensomc on the poor classes, he (Lord Melbourne) contended that if it conduced to the general advantage it would unques tionably conduce to the advantage of the poorer classes among the rest of her Majesty's subjects, and in that case ' the tax substituted would in fact be less burthensome to the lower classes of society. These were the grounds on which he proposed this Bill, and he did so with full confi dence, relying on the pledge that was given in the pream• ble of the Bill, and with the full certainty that that pledge would be redeemed ; because lie was certain this country would never ask for a measure for which it was not prepared to pay the price, nor would it demand a measure of which it was not prepared to take the consequences. The Noble perd sencluded by moving that the Bill be read is c(gatni tins. The Duke of WELLINGTON sincerely wished this bad beers such a measure as the Noble Viscount had in the 4y•. : ~. opening of his address described it ; and that_ in point of feet the Government had at its disposition: ahe power of carrying it into execution without calling Upon the House to come to a vote upon the question ? He - Xthe Duke of Wellington) had never addressed their Lordships with more anxiety and pain than he felt on that occasion, and he never felt more reluctance than he then did to give the vote which he should give upon this question, and to ad. vise their Lordships upon the course which, in his opinion, they ought to follow. The Bill stated in the preamble to have for its object the establishment of a uniform and low rate of postage. There could be no doubt of the expediency, and indeed the,necessity of establishing in the I country a low and uniform rate of postage. But if the object was only to reduce expence of postage, and to esta blish an uniform rate, he imagined the power of the Go- I vernment was sufficient for that purpose already. As to this particular plan, which had been called Mr. Row land Hill's plan, and which he was disposed to admit was of all the plans that had been proposed, the most likely to be successful, he was afraid it would not be entirely suc cessful. Ile thought, in the first place, there was a great mistake in supposing that the reduction of the price of • postage, down to a penny even, to be paid on the delivery of the letter, would induce a great deal of literary cor respondence. He had for many years had the advantage of some kno-sledge of such a system in the army, and he could safely assure their Lordships that the small quantity of correspondence carried on by soldiers was quite curious, notwithstanding the facilities they had of corresponding. In fact, they had only to pay one penny fur a letter to the drum-major, who managed the post-offiee department in all regimenta l fie would mention a remarkable instance, which would show that it was not at all certain, because the postage would be reduced to a penny, that correspond ence would be more frequent,and that there would be more letter-writing. In a Highland regiment of 1,000 men, it was positively ascertained that in the coarse of six or seven months, only sixty-three or sixty-four letters were written. Now as to the application of this plan to the country. They all knew that the post-office was sometimes six or seven, or ten or fifteen miles from their houses and many villages in the neighbourhood. Well, a man would have to take his letter to the pest-office and bring it from tine office ; going to the post-office once a day would be half a a day's work—going there twice a day would be a whole day's work ; and could it be expected that labouring men would make such a sacrifice, only because he could send his letter throug,h the post on payment of a penny ? Then as to the working of the plan in large towns. It might work very well in London, where there was a large post office, and a great number of people employed to deliver letters two or three times a day, but in such towns as Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, and other towns of great population, where there might be 120,000 or 150,000 inhabitants, and where there was at present only one post-office existing in the town, other post offices would have to be established for their accommodation ; and the consequences would be, that there would be a vast increase in the administration of the services of the Post office, a circumstance which had not as yet been taken into consideration, as far as he had ascertained. Upon the whole, therefore, he was afraid the scheme of a low and uniform rate of postage, and most particularly this scheme (which, however, he was of opinion was the best of all), would be found impracticable, on account of the ex pense and trouble of carriage. The plan of the Bill, as stated in the preamble, was departed from by the clauses of the Bill, because the Treasury were authorised to adopt any plan they might think proper, whether a plan by covers or by stamps, or by pre-payment of money. Certainly the preamble of the Bill was entirely laid aside . by the pro:isions. He felt it was most desir able that a low and uniform rate of postage should be established. The Treasury having the power conferred upon them by the other House of Parliament, of adopting such measures as they might deem necessary, they doubt less would consider all the objections which had been urged against the plan, and adapt such measure as they thought proper, with a view particulaili:to the object of the conveyance and receiving of letters. When first the sub ject was mentioned in that House, the language of the Noble Viscount certainly- was, that he considered it a . - greet object to secure the revenue, and that he would not agree to the plan unless the revenue was secured. And that was the language also used in the other House of Parliament. But now they had Fot no security. The Noble Viscount hadapparently no confidence in any calculations, for he had attempted none. Hear.) The.. Noble Viscount was contented with the pledge in the preamble of this Act. Now, when a preamble stated that such a thing was expe• dient, the enacting part usually should fulfil that obligation. Here, however, there was in fact no guarantee at all.— ( Hear, hear.) To a guarantee there ought to be two parties. One party in the present case was the House of Commons. Who was the other party? Not their Lord ships' House, for they could not act in any way w,th regard to carrying it into execution ; nor the Sovereign, who would give the Royal Assent to the Bill. To whom was the pledge given? To the public? Why it was, in truth, no guarantee at all, particularly when it was considered that several Hon. Gentlemen in the other House of Parliament, supporters of the Government, had declared that they would not consider themselves bound by the pledge. E the Government bad come down to the House and ex- pressed a disposition to take into consideration the state of the finances of the country—the various demands existing for the services of the country, which had been so well described by the Noble Viscount—the state of the unfunded debt—the commercial and the monetary systems; if they had said the income was not equal to their expenditure— that they had do means of increasing the unfunded debt, and proposing the usual course of proceeding, they would not feel great confidence if their only security were such a guarantee as this. As to the finances of the country, he was disposed to say a few words, though there were some Noble Lords present who were better qualified to epeak oil that topic, and it was difficult to follow a finan cial statement except from a person well versed in the sub ject—but he held in his hand a paper, rather curious, and to which he begged to draw their Lordships' attention. It represented the state of the revenue and expenditure of the United Kingdom as follows—for the year ending the sth April 1840 the revenue was 48,138,000/. ; the expen diture 47.958,000/. To this, however, it appeared that a million must be added on account f Canada—so that there was a deficiency of 800,0001. or 900 000/. There must, therefore, be an increase of the unfunded debt to that amount. What now would be the result of this plan in April 1840? Why, there would be a deficiency of 2,458,0001. in the revenue. There was a large unfunded debt now in circulation, much larger than the market would bear; the interest was falling, and must still fall-- ( Viscount Melbourne—" The premium")—true, the pre mium. It could not be doubted that the amount of Exchequer Bills was frequently ton large for the market ; and their Lordships must be aware of the state in which the commerce as well as the monetary system of the country were now placed and that it would be a great convenience not only to the Government but to the country at large, to take out of the market at this time a large amount of Exchequer Bills by funding part of the unfunded debt, and thus providing some means of making up, by 1810, the deficiency which they were quite sure must then exist.--( Hear, hear.) But besides the drficiency he had stated,] there were some important items, a new levy for the army, which would, it was estimated, require 75,000/. additional, only to April, and by this time next year must require double that sum. Then there were the advances which was to be made for Birmingham, and the expense of the constabulary force to be established in the country, of which the public would have to pay a portion, and there were different expenses going on ; so that upon the whole, the Government must expect a very large deficiency by April 1840.—( Hear, hear.) Now, if it were proposed to fund, in the usual mode, Ex chequer Bills to the amount of 5,000 000/. or 6,000,0001. much mote would be done to meet the public exigencies than what the present measure would effect.—( Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding, however, that he felt so littlo coafidence in this measure, he earnestly recommended their Lordships to vote for it.—( A sarcastic kind of " Ilear," from Lord Brougham.) It was a measure which was most earnestly looked for by the country, a measure on which there had been much d o ubt, an d on which there must be increasing doubt—( Hear, hear)—but there was not a single clause on which their Lordships could make any amendment, or upon which they could do anything be yond giving a simple negative or affirmative, according to the conventional rules fur regulating the proceedings be tween the two Houses. Supposing that their Lordships rejected the Bill, the Government had in its hands the power, and, as it was reported, they had the inclination, to destroy the whole revenue of the Post-office, and to do all the evil which could be apprehended from the Bill— while at the same time that measure of Pest-office admi nistration which it was the object of this Bill to effect, and which it was desirous to see carried into execution, would be altogether untouched if the Bill did not pass. Under these circumstances, with pain and reluctance, he meant himself to vote for the Bill, and he earnestly recommended to their Lordships to support it. Earl RIPON said ho acquiesced with great hesi tation, with great uneasiness, and with no little alarm, in the proposition of the Noble Duke to permit this Bill to pass through the present and future stages. He confessed that, however desirous he might be of seeing the sates of postage reduced to the lowest possible limit, he could not look to the proposal of this rash experiment, on the finances of the country, at this time, but with the greatest anxiety and alarm.— ( Hear, hear.) lie considered the Bill objectionable, not only upon account of the mode, but the times in which it was proposed to carry it into effect. Nothing but his respect for the judgment of the Noble Duke could induce him to vote for the second reading of the Bill. The mea sure itself was a very clumsy contrivance. If it were fit that a measure of this sort should be adopted—involving as it did such extensive risks—itshould have been adopted on the fullest consideration by the Legislature, both of principle and detail. But this Bill, though it affected to announce a principle in its preamble, contained no details at all ; it transferred the tampering with a large branch of the public revenue to the Treasury. It was competent for the Trea sury to say that the reduction should be to a halfpenny, or that it should b e no more t h an to twopence. "isNoble but Friend was a ware th a t thi s was an unw is e measure; with he yielded to the pressure from without. Then regard to the power of franking, certainly be he ca red r ecollected nothing for such a privilege; but it was Houseso e of Parlia that that power w as giv e n to the two ment for public purposes. Why then should depend upon the Treasury ? That, however, that power was the state of was a minor consideration ; It's great embarrassment the revenue. They must remember that. they . were now dealing with an income that to of 1 650,000 make up that revenue the_e 1., and n umber of letters must be at least pass. ing through the Post-office druplcd. He had no bow were in time such alight be the case, but doequa ubt that •• ow they to bear the loss to the revenue in the mean time? If they had surplus, if they had not an actual defi ciency, then he would have no hesitation in running the risk, as he h a d o f ten done before;but the revenue was in a most unfavourable state; but that did not alarm him so much as the cooetaat increase of the expenditure of the countr-c. Any man, with two eYe in b i s head* m,;;&; ale that any reduction in Iltsa;peaattara was perfectly impossible- a stay, in fact, there must be a progressive is:a - cease. The diminiShs erg of the debt, without a surplus, was utterly hopeless— ! nay, within the fast four ye4rs, the interest upon it s,ai,l risen no less than 653,0091. He knew that c ,.sa partt c f EVENINC; EDITI t. that wen awibutabte to the twenty mitliens g t•en or the abelitie n o f s i ave r te —( H ear , h e ar') That was a wise measur e and a good cue, and one in which he mo=t heartily joined. He crey cited it for the purpose of sh oe e, ;h e impossibility of retrerichine - the expenditure for interest to the amount of 29,443,000/. must be provided for—no ecorenny'even of the most cheese-paring character could reduce that. Then could they possibly economise I in the establishments of the Army, the Navy, or the iOrdnance? On the contrary, those estimates had been increased, and looking at the state of society at home, and the operations we were carrying on abro,,d, they must still further increase. We were engaged in the most gigant:e war ever undertaken in India by the coun try—the difiinuities in which would commence when suc cess begun. By the supineness of Government, and by a succession of blunders on the part of Sir John M'Nell, we were now actually at war with Persia—by these blunders we had driven Persia into the arms of Russia. We were extending cur distant possessious by establishing Colonies in New Zealand and Australia, and we had taken posses. i on o f a fortress in the R e d S ea. What again was the state of Canada?—a regular succession of forts was neees szpvcfnoc. for protectionwhat was; that s t could of not the b NhE eodr North-East withouttiou Bound gr a e r a y t • question—also the North-West Boundary question, which might he opened at any time. Again, and that was since the estimates had been printed, in what state were our relations with China? If the Chinese Governm e nt e m b e a n d t were engaged that we should pay two millions, he did not say thatp ;t • 'v y deterc' silvered ; b t f u e o t r pu th a supposing to immense G the q uoapniut quantity t yo trade, teai then e wee h must we rcouired, and could that be done without inconvenience into consideration could any Minister t in he t s l e ie c i i - i r r c e u s m en s t tan s e ta e t s e of , ourele . oney market? Taking all m ho i ld , ts oi ? it a li h e op f e el f t o r a a ll ny ca r e e s d e uc d ti l o ffi n eu t i n ti o es ur a g n a rea d t a e n s g t e a r b s liah s; sti-oneiv that he hardly knew how he should justify himself the a time he w ret j o s tale moats tsiunitper to ing th t e h .. !c s a se. tßii. If He e h t e h y had ough reserved the measure until next year the Govern meat would have had an opportunity of considering every part c-f the measure, and of preparing and regulating the details ; and they might at the same time execute what they would now only pledge the House to do. He looked • upon the pledge as a complete absurdity.—( Hear, hear.) He defied any man of sense to place his finger upon any item of taxation upon which the Government could with propriety lay an additional duty. Would they select the Customs, which they had been reducing for years that the manufacturer s might have their articles at the cheapest rate ? Would they select luxuries, of which they had been reducing the duties in order to increase their con sumption ? Or articles of the manufacture of other coun tries, in violation of principles which they bad been strainieg every nerve to establish, to remove everything like a prohibit cry duty ? Or the assessed taxes? Would they renew the hretse-tax cr the window -tax, off which they had taken 501. per ccrt ? Would they once more make the peer cottager pay far his house? He believed it was intenied by some to substitute a property tax, but he did not know weetl--r the other House would be prepared to adopt it. He believed, however, the wisest financier would fiai it impossible to say where a tax of 1,500,0001. could be with propriety imposed. He admitted that, ab stractedly considered, the reduction of the Post- office duty would be productive of great advantage, but he protested aganst the ex.2essive baste with which Government was now rushing on with the measure. They were making a rash experiment, and that several months, according to their own statement, before they should want to carry it into practice. Lord BROUGHAM said the Noble Lord oppcsite had entered into a comprehensive statement about ludian affairs, including Runjeet Sing and best Nlahornmed ; and also the affairs of Canada. He had left nothing un touched except the Post-office question—( Laughter) —and perhaps the Paella of Egypt, and the Turks.—( Laughter.) He ( Lord B.) did not deny that there was a comprehen sive connexion between general finance and may measure which might e n t a il a l oss o f t h e revenue. But he would say that the Neble Viscount, in introducing the subject, had acted but fairly as head of the Treaaurv, and justly towards the House and the country, in Inal:.ing the plain and candid statement of accounts which he had laid before them. That staterneet gave him ( Lo:d Brougham), and no doubt it would also give the country, greater confidence in the measure. He ( Lord B.) had presented-a number of petitions in favour of the measare___. from corporations, magistrates, from teachers, and' from mercantile men chiefly—in short, petitions from the va rious classes in society ; and the arguments and facts of those petitions all went to justify the measure proposed by his Noble Friend. The Noble Lord ( Ripon)had argued that the whole Post-office revenue was in jeopardy. That revenue was 1,500,000/. ; but the Noble Lord had con fised his argument to only 200,0001. of. it, that being the less which it was apprehended this measure would cause. He might with a rnuab justice state that his Noble Friend was placin g in jeopardy the whole of the 48,000,0001. he argu ments which formed the revenue o f th e countr y. Amongst t against the measure they had one Irons the Noble Duke opposite—that in a reg;tneut of 1,000 men there were sent by the post only 65 letters in six months. Nov h e (Lord B.) wished to speak of the military with nit pos sible respect, but he must beg leave to say that a windier was not a letter-writing animal.—( Laughter.) A soldier would fight, and watch, and obey commands naturally, for habit had made those duties second nature, but he would not naturally take up his pea and write a letter. A soldier did not correspond on military subjects, but he sometimes corresponded on amatory subjects — (Laughter) —not with persons at a distance, but generally with those with whom he might as well communicate by word of mouth.—(Loud laughter.) His Noble Friend had said the Scotch sol diers wrote more letters than other soldiers. He believed, that the Lowlanders wrote more letters than the Hig'nlena e . era, for they were a better educated class of men, nut the case of the Noble Duke proved too much. If racily ti out of one thousand soldiers wrote once in six months, it followed that 24 out of 25 never wrote. Most pro bably a great number could not write at all ; but this 1 was net the case of the army g,eenerally. In the month of February 1838, the nunther of letters which passed through the London 1 ) : - .st-c•ffice from soldiers was 2,410; the aggregate nernber was 188,000, of which the f-aoih belonged to the soldiers, who, though not writing-letter animals by nature, were yet induced to write by the penny rate of postage. He was sure if the inhabitants of . any other district, not mercantile, were selected, they wa eo ld not be found to write letters within the same peri.ed, to the amount of I in 200, while the soldiers wrote c w e rut n e t. ! i oer s a a n , While our Post- o ffi ce c h arge d 1,000 per average of ad. for the delivery of each le' coy, the P ost _ office of France charged but 500 per cent„ or 44.. Th e consequence. was, •that in twenty years the Postoffie revenue in that country h a d increased from a little - mor c e than 19,000 ; 000 francs to 35,500,00 t i . rancs. Yet France was a much less mercantile coun'ty than ours, still cur Post-office revenue ad. not in that timo incocascd, though cur trade, wealth, and pepulatioa Lad, while those of the other eountry had been almost station ary. Still France charged too much. Our presce,a sy item had the doubly bad effect of deterring, be the high prices, those who would write, and of tempting those who did to smuggle their letters. ikst.vvuoffiucide now state some other fac ts . Wh en t h e D u bli ;l reduced their rates to 2d, the authorities 'acre in despair they calculated the income of 100,000/, then derived from it, would fail 20,000/., but the reedit was that the letters multiplied so much that the revenue from that branch in bc r u e r a g s h e d w t e o r e l r a e o d ,o u o e t e ) , / i . fr o T rr l l 1 e 2d l . .o c t aolylPliv,ole.si- otsffibtielcieinrtatetereressa soon more h a than doubled The postage numbs th e postage from Stroud to Knaresworth, in Gloucestershire, had been reduced from 4d. to Id. ; the number of letters consequently had sextupled. Front this it might be seen that the facts were all on their side. This Bill, he consi dered, would be of the greatest importance. He should regard the increase of letters as a most satisfactory index of the progress of society ; it would show an increase of the educated, industrious, active-mind ed, spisiced, adventurous classes of the population. In short, he should weary their Lordships, were he to read over all the incalculable advantages of letter-writins o in dependent of its extensive bearing on the vast concerns of trade. Many letters that might have been productive of mercantile speculations, had no doubt frequently not been written on account of the expense of postage ; and he had no doubt, therefore, there would be abundant proof, in the increase of the revenue, of the benefit of a low rate of postage, indirectly as tea as directly; When he consia dered the great increase of population, as well as its ' es . creased wealth and activity in all directions, which ;could be greatly facilitated by this plan of postage,. hie, f ea r s o n behalf of the revenue, he co n f esse d, came vs o .Din a very moderate compass. The population was increasing at the rate of one and a half per cent. a year, and each person paid upon an average about 2/. a yea,: to the revenue. Well, supposing a population of '44,000,000 being in creased to 26,000,000, there "could be something like 4,000,000/. more. One sacss; as to the finances of the 1 country. He ( Lord Brougham) was surprised to hear the Noble Viscount ond the Noble Duke speak of Canada as they did, The Noble Duke said Canada had cost 1.000,0001., and was surprised it did not cost more. Now be e ele : s as c g ol r o a n t : fu t l h t a o t (Lord Brougham) thought Canada was dear at 1 000,0001. ' andth e .3..0:: 0, tout/0. rgairina:tnti h .bfeuerili), - : e r r tfwhooer would be a ve d eo a r p: rn : 1 1: :: : but the Noble Duke thought Canada was worth infinitely more than he did. He was quite sure of this, that if they went on paying 1.000,000/. one year, 2 , 0 00,000/. the the eye ne x of t 3' even ea r , cost so much. The Noble and Learned Lord in COnelu.. distant and useless to the foil,' of keeping a and manly statement he had made, not shrinking from the responsibility, nor shrinking' from the statement his fsolGr n N having o si l d e , Friendtbhraotugli brought L fieu o l rttdhmi this measure. , Melbourne) easu r e f or t h e Conciliatory of what he thought was the risk that would be run b , the measure, b u t stating justly the gro un d s on which the measure w r a e s , proposed. it, L so ord lu tS a llß to U ne ßT uf o iN: y toi c t e hen tha a t dd li r e ess w e a d s t a b sc e ar li ce o d us eheab rudt We u n d erstood him to contend i i h n at t t h h e e e g as a e lle o r l y ' y the red uct i on of postage was not analagous to the case o f t h e repeal of a tax ; because generally, when e tax w as repealed, the expense of collecting it was of course done away with ; but here there would be an in creased expense created, owing to the iticreased number of letters that would be sent by post. As to the general herv,fits That would accrue from the measure, be was one of those who had been always sanguine of the beneficial effects that would be produced by the measure. It bad j always appeared to him that a tax on the communications of persons distant from each other was ; of all tastes, the most obnoxious. It interfered with the social happiness and comforts of society ; and it seriously affected the literary and scientific class. No doubt, the cost atteuding the communication of thottght, from one class to another,_ use tended very much to prevent the dissemination . of ful information. Indeed it had the effect, as he had in another. correspondence from foreign between p; mans. Then as to set the example of if Engla n d ploOo stated, of stopping, as it were, verbal communications conntrles, he thought, foreign countries would ::: e clueing the rates of postage, the reduction, ; 00n was, that if rectucti-n, -were not correspondence, the most Adeehmaadnadt firstao. f tlu ol at ba : w cpb;; i il t ‘i "so ; ju a ltd t u t and foreign left u opinion ou t of to 2d. that that consideration. p important general demand t h e amount was reduced g purpose, but the t w h o o u u l n. d h a t .ns th w a c t r the