The Sun. — London, England, 1844-06-26 00:00:00

,r~~r.~i ,aa beep fhb , coasiler their case, but in vain. The If ).? then. -. read a petitioitfrom the sawyers . of Nlan k.e:i.p.'"naplanung of theeeffecte of' saw mills, which tiewfdreds out of bread in every town in the United N I ( a He read also a ;petition from calico printers, abet complaint i'Such was the langu ige, use 1 I ria n the caliceklock printers. Yet that body b eee el l , n not petition till . House for the repeal of the ,:i t l l; , ,e , r . , rant :o ; for they evould tell them that that re el, „Ind Le their ruin. ' In the session before last he presented a petition signed by twenty ',4lo‘tesaiel frame-work knitters of the Midland tit ) . d Zi complaining of the effect of machinery, but PraY for the repeal of the corn-laws. The eiiiii,etneer the n referred to a pamphlet, written by a . in Manchester, which sta'ed the dreadful kkick,, int) which machinery had brought the S e pluses in Manchester and its neighbourhood. i , 'Kt that, although She trade in. cotton factories lite. Pin 1781 to 1841, increased 101 times, yet the I tr, ; () ? 111 - weavers had now only ls. where, in 1791, te (-sh e d nt s 1 0s- The Member then read docu show' 'eer y tog the effect of the introduction of ma ttetio into power loorne 1 ; and stating that, with the hte r e s ti° n of Machinery} the employment of the re t 'asee c)t all other species of articles was t TI most frightful degree, and that tie 1 . 1 - i est misery and distress was the result. L e g o ;a t R un. Gen'tleman the President of - 4 . (1 "f Trade had introduced a clause into a Bill (44:18etee legalising the exportation of machinery. He ,ktely er . r ,ani) believed that that measure would ulti e,b 1 : 11 11 the country; it might increase trade for a line that it would bring ruin he felt certain, All „ tith e I ," ; had spoke n t o on th e s u bject had told him ateLa"lht Hon. Gentleman had begun at the wrong ;" eY were all anxious for free trade in every sieeePt ma c hirary. He believed that even the ' tt„el°lber for Sheffield, if he made further inquiries subject, wo u ld find that there were b li the e ' e l e h3 in this country that required p m rotection. 13 .Year in which the exportation ofmachinery notwithstanding foreign orders, there were t Alan machine makers out of employ in Man • So much with respect to the legislation ke t , 1 1 e1 7 . Now, the lion. Member who had intro i▪ s e s e questien had thotight proper to give the - ,Ni t 4lll " inlet harrowing details with respect to the N 44 districts, horrors which, if true, in his Ws 11Ar° " 1(1 only be increased by a repeal of the cern- Vl' a r n ly, he would give the House some description t 'nt . it - ' l _, t or thing- in the town of Bolton from a state t\r`testioat'ie by Mr . . - A ' shworth. (The llon : M . emher then. 4, 1 t e l , to read the statement, from which it appeared - ; l'''a t es t distress and misery prevailed in that r 'ln another statement made in the pamphlet rl " , (l .'' '' lci ng man, to which he had adverted, it ap eqNest„illt in some instanc 's in that town the e-orking 14 - `chti CO destitute that they were obliged to lie as h state Now ' he (Mr. Ferrand) believed that no e st— existed in the agricultural 1 4 ' 4 1 . 4; The Hon.a -s Member had labou . redhard „Ito t*,ll hied be House that the repeal of the co, h s." ,l be an advantage to the working classes. Itherto been the custom of that house to deny 041 1 of the assertions he (Mr. Ferrand) made. LI, he the workingmen of Lancashire say the other Irtk_ s e e s tl e be went amone them ? Why, that every vih t oe had m a de wa s true.. The Noble Lord, the l in h t . for S un d erland, whom he was sorry not now to t t :%b e ls ePlace—(Considerable laughter, caused, we be - Howick b.-ing fast asleep under the gal 54kj r eaps som e lion. Member on the other side of ' th en the Noble Lord waked, would be kind el an to tell him what he (Mr. Ferrand) had said.— 0 Ott * That Noble Lerd had asserted that he (Mr. Oi l s,' ` l ad stated that the Member for Stockport was eeh6in his factory the truck system in all its el n 4 s ee (Bear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Ferrand) had eite4nch thing ; but what he stated was, that he un he t hat the Hon. Member kept cows, and sold milk 4, '4 q ° t we jlt people. The Hon. Member for Stockport Cn when he ; d thisa main and t made herefo such assertions,re he trusted that th ld e % - "i'd, 11 i t e ha . t he had proper data on which to found h i t k oti " lion. Member who had brought forward t t li t ' l n spoke of combination for the repeal of_ the 1 ;be (Mr. Ferrand) would have them combine d estruction of machinery, for if they did not, h rj ` PaZ uld be sunk deeper in misery still, for the sake le.k - e l ri ne• to the luxuries of the millownes, I,4lky'tu-eorn-law League had for some time past been g to destroy the agricultural party, in order I' l 'kin e ntsll What they called free trade principles. The k 4 it e e e :, People knew this, and the Anti-Corn-law s 4 tie e ( 'aved not to go to Manchester and hold a public . es e a support of their principles. The working new that the Anti-Corn-law League were the w uo upheld the extension of machinery—that ~SbrY which prevented the labourer from earning r e -a ,by the sweat of his brow. The Hon. Gentle u,Tinby moving-the following amendment — e House - do resolve itself into . a Committee, for t 4, t ir:se of considering the following resolutions te „ l a ppears by a recent census, that the people of . 1 , 14 111 try are rapidly increasing in number. That it th 4. te 'i i` e ' e nce before this House, that a large proportion I‘ ;' 4 a.lesty's subjects are insufficiently provided with 4 ti an s of purchasing the first necessary of life. L i kl e kth ough a corn-law is in force, which protects the qtei t ., ° , f foed produced by British capital and native ON"' and thereby increases its abundance, whilst it e'llte, sl ntietition in the market of labour, neyerth . e lth7oinery. has for many years lessened among the tieh classes the means of purchasing the same. That „,li s teOrodaw having for its object. the protection of pi c apital, an d the encouragement of native labour C od 3 " t l" in the growth of an article upon which de jCe subsistence of the community, is just in pren eleelvneticials in operation, and ought net to be abol it ' therefore, expedient that every en is,. Oter `"el.tt and protection hall be given to native hi e* ' which is the. groundwork of our national great -414 thane Retiree of our national wealth." cl le c 4in BERKELEY deprecate I the attempt which tie sin mete to set the manufacturirg party and the Nis ral party of this co intry against each other. litiitieredthat ene could not be injured with o u t in oih er. He also regretted to find the Anti f, League persisted in their denunciations %- the landed aristocracy of the country. Th e Ptsee' e ' l `eY tuis country were among the first to sup e --a ritable institutionse and to stand forward in acts 41 44, ei olence.Hedeprecatel the .practice . which the t li' l ttie urn einw League had adopted of going amon t gs_t . e l encies with whom they were not at all conneced e eh . ,P.ed that the repeal of the corn-laws would be a e', N "'l e - , 11.11 ne, and time only, and he believed that Hon. s r 'te were convinced that the corn-lams thin d r ' 11 :1-1' st e should vote for the repeal of the corn - .tile only course for him to adopt. Il tI l lee t ; 1 1 a1.1),sTONE said that he was anxious because take e eoeportunity of addressing the Hose, Lea h t ' l ) te e s' e se would probably be anxious to . know w a t oe Government intended te take with respect to N e -c , } l t , i tni- It would be his duty to endeavour to per . the Hous e t o m eet the motion with a direct In order to do that, it would be necessary for him 1144der briefly to the amendment which had been pro il,Thequestion that would be submitted to them first dart tl that the words proposed to be left out stand Oilf th e question' If they affirmed that question, they ) 4 ' 5 1 4: 1 - tl t s il have to vote aye or no to the motion of the 'ember for Wolverhampton. He thought the i Tte;',Rod he thought the Hon. Member for Knare.s 1-441PL himself would see that it was desirable they vote f aye or no to a question of so much import llee)"..;ll4,;(l. that it ought not to be met by any indirect e w e It e °:l - The amendment of the Hon. Member Ma tters m ixed up with this question many Gen tleman's of great importance. With respect to the " en tleman's proposition regarding machinery, he h ielstone) could not give it his support. His con- Sl i Pa t t e )4 " conviction was that, however great the.bard- Oa ee r labourer had to undergo in consequence eft-littera, yet if that machinery were to be restrioted h - at the same time restrict the means a l4: -. ' r edB of the working classes from obtaining sub- He hoped the Honourable Member would ;tl,,. t e h e motion of the Honourable Member for ,"„ampten to come fairly before the House, and . gsti e v e ' 'ale subject of his amendment to a separate dis- Zetee - "' He now came to the motion of the Honourable :Jen : e r for Wolverhampton. The Honourable Gentle !tee-aelel that no Member on that (the Ministerial) side hfs t y,eteus e would ever have the courage to get up and th e lt the corn-laws were maintained for the benefit t itir e f i 'atlier. He (Mr. Gladstone) thought the Hon -14? Gentleman had underrated the manly courage tieeZentleuaen on that side of the House. The a p a/v i were for the benefit of the eiericultural '4 l- ' 4. . the farmer, and the landlord ; 'out he believed Icee, 4 , 1 the corn-laws were to be repealed, the land m'cnuld be that class that would most easily 1 1e e lF aZainst the difficulty attendant on . such a step. : e v er th Member for Wolveshempton said that, wher ;'4 at a. , er e Were spirited and independent farmers, they intended, ttair conviction, that the corn-law was not 1 , 4 4 ( , e 1 for their benefit, but for the benefit of their 1 ,7(1 e i -r ' t ,s• The Hon. as"entlerean,.as it appeared to him, hhind 'tat instances argued in a circle, for wherever he eb f armers w h o thought ill of the corn-laws,. he ``seirted and independent?' while he denied eeilril T ow, to t the great mass of the farmers. — (Heaek ;Btitz,,:. ' N OW, so far as he had had an opportunity of meea'MP', the feelings of the farmers of this country on et eject, locking impartially at the movement and the ae ee`l.-toovetnent which was going on on the subject of I '4 ' 4 ti k t' o rt- e la n's, he must confess that it appeared to him a°dlfarmers did more to stimulate and urge on the iA7 I3 3 0 - pport of those laws than the landlords did 4 ' l ' 11/1 % 41 "S- Ile did not say whether they were right t ng i n doing so. It was not a question of right, b s e loesti e th e „ I I of feling, and as such he mpst t ithe he thoughht there was a stronger feeling th ee Par t of the farmers in favour of the corn-law than r 4 ,e the7part of : the landlords. He co . iild .4. not . tio e . ce ter• 4 - eas otherwise on the part of the agriculairal et e e . The agricultural labeurers, it could not' be ( plo y ' ;ere . , by far the greater:number of them, ex , tear, his n xtolis fir the maintenance of the corn-law.— to 'ar.) The Hon. Gentleman, by his speech, . ‘,l l * 4g r i cui l n-Tly that the prevalence of incendiarism ee rn..i 't .. nral districts was owing to the existence of a "• He had stated that there was nothing so Pith re,, as the condition of the agricultural labourer. 7 1 4 1 1 4 Ni t d 'rd to th at su bj ect, however, he must be had ,(11 s tate that h e t h oug h t the Hon. Gentleman had t g othe Worst specimen of that condition as the axe e,oa,,ne although he must admit that in many parts of NvtlistsLeeejitistar.Ytist(h_er.. condition of the agricultural labourer e ,,,:ea e nd ce %tory, as to the enjoyment of the neces tOded thvalaelrorts of life, yet at all events it must be the agricuitural labotn7 . was free from itt let s ; td o , e (i tr u e riene reverses of his condition . which had there of last few year; the condition of the bit - "crsvin s , e 4lBl eY, Stockport, and other manufac hteterseer verses which had entailed upon them more ~.otiet , .....mg than had ever been known to the agricultural hammed wha(ilear, hear.) The Hon. Ge n tl eman h a d Tex ittr 4 as the lay cause of that incendiarism, and he " 1 to down 0 proposition which he had THE SUN, LONDON WEDNVSDAY EVENING, JUNE 26, 1844. he promised the farmers a certain price for cora. He believed his Right Hon. Friend made no promise of the kind, but he said it would be desirable if the price could be kept within the limits of 543. and 58s. How had the law worked to re dise this price? The price bstweea April, 1812, and December, 1842 ? The ave rage price was 555. 10d., which was within the limit. In 1843 the average price was but 505., which was be tas the limit, but this was a very abundant year. In 1841 the average price was 545. 6.1. • So that in two out of three yeas, the average price had been within the limit to which his Right Hon. Friend made allusion. Another objection to the old lam was, that it deranged the currency, for the cora which was imp ,rted to supply the sudden scarcity produced in this country must be paid in bullion and not in goods. Was that true of the present corn-law, though large quantities of corn were imported under it ? In 1842 there was a greater quan tity of wheat and wheat flour iutroduced than in any former year, and yet no derangement had been produced in the currency. The Hon: Member for Wolverhamp ton himself admitted that night, that they had now a trade on the Continent in elm, which was carried on regularly and paid for in goods.—(No, no.) He (Mr. Gladstone) wis referring to the lion. Gentleman, the Member for Wolverhampton, and the Hon. Member for Stockport denied- the statement for him.-(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He understood the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Wolverhampton, to make such a st atement, but its correctness depended on higher authority even than his, for there were introduced under the present law, in the present year, 160,0000euarters of wheat. That was a large quantity.—(lronical cheers:) Did Hon. Gentle men suppose that the same quantity was to be intro- . &Iced every year into the country without reference to the abundance or scarcity of the harvest at home? ( Hear, hear.) The average price of wheat in the present year, was 565., and yet, with the price at this amount, 160,000 quarters had been introduced under the present law. In the five first months in the present year, although the price had not reached 575., 150,000 quarters of foreign corn had ben imported into this country. — (Hear, hear.) He asked whether Hon. Gentlemen opposite .would make the charge' of unsteadiness of price against the present corn-law which he admitted they had, with some reason, urged against the former law ? Neither could the charges ,of deranging the currency, which had been brought against the former law, be reasonably advanced against this. The present law had been productive of considerable revenue. In 1842, there was. a large revenue derived from the impartation of corn. In that year a revenue of 1,300,000/. had been derived from the importation of foreign corn, although the duty di , ' not exceed 9s:. -a quarter. In 1834 809,000, or 900,000 quarters of corn had been imported, which paid 14s. duty. Now it might be said that 14s. was a high rate of duty, but it should be recollected that under the old corn-law, when only ss. claty was raised, it was argued that the very lowness of the duty was a proof of the evil of the law, for said its opponents foreign corn could not be ad mittel at that duty, unless ' the price of corn in this country had reached a height that showed its scarcity. Under the present system abundance of foreign corn entered the market at a comparative low rate of duty, before the price reached 60s. a quarter. Those who op posed the present protective system were bound to prove two things before they asked. for its abolition—that the present corn-law was bad, and that it was bad from its protective tendency. The Hon. Gentleman who nude the motion had not attempted to, show that by the adoption of it those connected with the soil would not be very material . ) , injured by the abolition of protection ; he had, indeed, said, he (Mr. Gladstone) knew not upon what authority, that the ap,Ticultur 1 population formed but a seventh of the whole people of the kingdom. Surely the Hon. Gentleman must have overlooked Ireland. If the agricultural popu lation, with those immediately dependent on them, such as tradesmen in the rural districts, were considered, they would, he thought, amount to nearly one-half of the whole population of Great Britain and Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman had assumed that the condition of the agricultural population was bad, but had not attempted to prove that it was connected with the corn-laws, or in any wise attributable to them. Yet, on grounds so slight, he asked the House to revoke a solemn decision so deliberately arrived at. He (Mr. Gladstone) could not doubt for a moment as to the course which the Government and Parliament would take ; he could not for a moment doubt that they would give no encouragement to an agitation which was productive of mischievous effects, and which was calculated to shake the confidence of the people in the stability of the present law—a law which had been made as an adjustment of conflicting interests, and which it was the bounden duty of the Legislature to uphold, unless it could be shown that it had failed in the purpose for which it had been framed to effectuate. —(Cheers from the Ministerial bencheti.) Lord J. RUSSELL said he found himself in a posi tion nearly similar to that in which the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had declared the Government was placed in a few nights ago—a very unenviable one. Th 3 Honourable Member for Wolverhampton had asked the House not 'to go into a Committee on. the corn-laws, but to go into a Com mittee for the purpose of voting certain resolutions which would at once destroy every sort of corn-law; he asked the House to pledge itself against the application of all protective duties in all cases whatever. On the other side the Right lion. Gentleman asked the House to 'vote against the motion 'on the ground that 'they ought to stand by and maintain the present corn. laws. He was not prepared to vote with his Hon. Friend, ' neither was he prepared to support the maintenance of the present corn-law. The Right lion. Gentleman seemed to dispute what his Hon. Prienti (Mr. Villiers) had, he thought, taken too much pains to prove—that cheapness and plenty were great blessings. They were taugl.t to pray for them in their prayer books, yet the Right lion. Gentleman seemed to doubt the accuracy of these assertions. The Right Hon. Gentleman went on to say that the present law should be supported on principle, and on account of the stability of price it afforded. Well he thought that both the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Right Hon. Baronet at the heal of the Government tied, from time to time, and particularly at the proposal of the new tariff, given utterance to principles the very reverse of those which the present corn-law rested upon. And he further thought the experience of the present corn-law was too slight to allow the warmest advocates of it to make any very favourable predictions concerning it. There had been two harvests since the accession of the present Ministry—the most favourable harvests—and yet upon this incomplete experience, the Right lion. Gentleman would have the House to assume that the present corn law ensured steadiness of price. He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman would not be prepared to say that the present law would stand one bad harvest. tie would net discuss the question as to whether the present Ministry had more wisdom than their predecessors, but they cer tainly had better weather,—(Hest', heat, and laughter.) The `Right lion,. Gentleman said, that nothing had been done in the present year, to break down the protective system. He said the alteration of the law respecting the duty oeksteehi - eves no diminution of protedtioti, because it was injurious to the wool-grower,, as it prevented the eonsnrAption Of lititish Vrodh Ile (Lord John Russell) entirely agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman in his statement, for he thought the duty on wool was injurious and mischievous to the wool-growers in this country. He thought this Was the present state of the dorri.laWs. He beliteed that there Woilld be a far greater consumption of wheat if they had a better corn-law, and therefore he said that the present corn-law was injurious to the agri cultural interest theniselves. If there should be a pros pett df a bad harvest, but a good harvest should actually occur ; the merchant, under the present law, would be ndticed,to make a &JnSidefable initioftdeidn Upon which lie Would inevitably sustain a loss. If, on the contrary. they should have a bad harvest, and that bad harvest should occur suddenly, then a sudden importation would take lace, and the farmer would be the party to suffer. The gull. Cletitlemitn, thd Meniber fof Wolverhampton, asked the House to g 0 into Committee for the papose of voting this resolution. The Hon. Gentleman, in the latter part of his speech quoted what he considered-pre cedents for a sudden abolition of duty. He (Lord J. Rus sell) 'nest say that he did not think that bis lion. friend Was able to produce . precedente which at all bore him out in his. assertion. The precedents his Hon. Friend had taken Were the abolition of the beer-tax and the slave-trades He (Lord John Russell) thought these were no precedents at all, The first consequence they might ejtpect from such a sudden change as the lion. dentleillan proposed would be a great panic among all persons concerned in agriculture. Thelandowner and the farmer would be doubtful how:to employ their capital with profit, The consequence of that would be diminu tion of employment .of labour. A sudden change would induce the merchant to make a much larger importation than would be consistent with the demand in this coun try. Such a change would produce great expectations. A large importation would immediately take place, and this Would produce not cheapness, but a glut in the market, thereby creating great distress amongst the agricultural portion of the cemmunity. Stich was the donseqttences Which they had to expect from so sudden a change to a state of perfect freedom. Let the House look to the authority of those who had given opinions upon this subject. Adam Smith and Mr. Ricardo as Writees, and Lord Grenville and Mr. Huskisson as. statesmen, had all expressed opinions upon this sub-. sect. Adant Smith said that a change. from prohi- , bition td freedom ought to he made with caution 4 Mr. Ricardo, in writing on this. subject, said that thee duty ought first to be reduced to 205., and then ' gradually reduced to 10s. Mr. Ricardo stated that even it duty of 10s. wthild be more than reasonable, but at the Same time he considered that it would be better to make a gradual reduction than to adopt a sudden change. Then what were the opinions of Lord Grenville. Lord Grenville speaking of the protective system in 1815, said that any change in the protective system should be made with caution, and not suddenly. Mr. Huskisson had also proceeded upon the same principle. With respect to Cotton and wool, there was no very great danger, because they were manufactured and sent to a third market, where they competed with all the markets of the world. There was no great danger, therefore, in complete free dom there. Yet, with respect 'to cotton, Mr. Huskisson, roduced the duty from 60 per cent. to 10 per cent., and he reduced wool to 15 per cent. With regard to other articles, he did not go quite so far as in the case of silk, in which the duty was 30 per cent, and in some cases 40 per cent. In all such cases be proposed a gradual and cautious change, and not a sudden and abrupt one. He (Lord J. Russell) found himself unable to take part in the vote of that night. He heartily wished that some compromise could be adopted with respect to this question He did not expect that any vote of that House, however large the majority might be, would put an end to agita tion on the subject. He did not think that it was likely that any settlement could be come to, until those inter ested in the land were disposed to, consider the existing law as really not favourable to the interests of the coun try, and therefore, not being favourable to the interests of the country, was unfavourable to them as a clasS. If manufactures and commerce were made to flourish, the landed int9rest no9d - not fear that they would be kept said no one collie be found boll enough to controvert, that there was invariably discontent in the agricultural districts when the price of bread was high, an I content when the price of breed was low. He would net under take to say that he regarded a high price of bread as good.—(Opposition cheers.) He admitted that a high price of bread was a misfortune; but tee Hon. Gentle man had dared any one to deny the accuracy of the assertion which he had made. Now, in the years 1839, 1840, and 1841, there was no incendiarism; while in the years 1813 and 1844, when the price of bread was moderate and low in comparison with the former years, there was incendiarism. Therefore the Hon. Gentleman who had challenged them to produce an instance of dis content among the agricultural labourers when bread was at aelow price, and of content when it was at a high price, need not go further than the last three years to see the fal!acy of his assertion. The honourable Gentleman said that this discontent and incendiarism was occasioned by want of em ployment. Now, he would ask the Hon. Gentlemen net if he had not encoeraged this feeling—he did not insinuate for a moment that he had done so—it would be an insult to ask the question—but he would ask him if he did not think it postible that this persevering and sedulous.agitation which he had carried on, no doubt, because he thought it calculated to produce great public advantage—if that agitation might not have suggested to the landlords the idea that their interests were not quite safe, anal might not have produced a pernicious effect by inducing them to withhold the application of their capital to the cultivation of the soil, which would not have been withheld if their confidence had not been shaken by this agitation—(Hear, hear)—and if the withholding of this capital had not occasioned a want of employment among the agricultural labourers, and so led to these incendiary tires 2—(Cheers.) If so, he called udon the Hon. Gentlemae to recognise with him the soundness and the wisdom, so long as Parliament determined to maintain those corn laws, of disregarding that agitation of winch he was the leader in that House, and of setting their faces firmly against motions such as that which had be .n sub mitted to them by the lion. Gentleman.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman had referred to an argument which he had used on a former occasion, and had stated that he (Mr. Gladstone) had urged the displacement of rural labour as an objection to the repeal of the corn-laws. Now, the Hon. Gentleman had answered that objection, as if he had contended that the corn-laws would displace labour only by throwing land out of cultivation, and had stated that he was at a loss to conceive how it could go out of cultivation, although it might be incapable of pro ducing rent. The Hon. Gentlemen had professed to be sceptical as to the possibility of such a state of things arising as any land being thrown out of cultiva tion as long as it could be cultivated by anybody on their own account. But that did not affect his (Mr. Glad stone's) argument. His argument was, that granting that there would be a great mere ise in the trade in the manufacturing productions of the country, covitequent upon a repeal of the corn laws, yet still the increased demand fur foreign corn could not but be followed by the infliction of injury tog the agricultural labourer. Might it not be possible that this state of things would arise: that a great quantity of land .ntev employed as arable land, might be laid down as pasture land—a method of cultivation which would be mist profitable to the landlord. but wouel be most dis'resaing to the labourer.—(Hear, hear.) Such a mode of cultivation would not lower the rent of the land, in fact it would be highly profitable to the landlord, and to the farmer, who would get a good price for the butter, cheese, and meat which would be produced from pasture land, while the demand for rural labour would be greatly dimin ished, and thus the agricultural labourer would suffer greatly, while the lan there Would not suffer at all. The Hon Gentleman had stated that if the repeal of the corn-laws, by increasing the supply of corn, would dis place agricultural labour, every improvement in agricul ture might be opposed for the same reason. Now, even if he were disposed to admit that improved methods of cul tivation, by increasing produce, would displace rural labour, yet that diminution of the demand for rural labour would be gradual. It would not come with that rapidity and suddenness which must be the result of any such proposition as that contained in the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. But he demurred to the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman upon that point. Certain agri cultural improvements must lead to a diminution of the demand for rural labour ; but in most cases agricultural improvements would lead to a general increase of that demand. If they looked to the improvement consequent upon the general inclosing of waste lands, or upon the establishment of an extensive system of drainage, the Hon. Gentleman could hardly deny but that those im provements, so far from leading to a diminution, would give a stimulus to the demand for rural labour, and would raise wages more perhaps than any other means that could be devised. It was doubtless true that every agri cultural improvement would diminish the. demand for labour. Everything that tended to diminish the quan tity of labour necessary to rase one quarter of wheat, would diminish the demand for labour so far as that quarter of wheit was concerned ; but if by the introduc tion of improvements the produce of the land could be increased by many quarters of wheat, the demand for rural labour, as a whole, would be proportionably in creased.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentle man had said that thosehwho had originally proposed the law had intended to produce scarcity. Now he repu diated that charge.—(Hear, hear.) It was not for him to say whether the, expectations of those who had framed the laW of 1815 had been realised or not, the Parliament of 1844 was not called upon to pass judgment on that subject—they might have been right, or they might have been wrong. Lord Grenville, and those who acted with him, might have greater credit given to them by the Hen. Member for sag:city than the framers of the law. 'But it was only doing justice to his Noble Friend (Lord Ripon) who had originally proposed that law, to say that the reason which he had given for its proposal was that by giving encouragement to domestic agriculture we should insure a more certain and abundant supply . of ' corn than by any other means. He did not expect that the Hon. Gentleman would concur in that argument, but it was but just to the original proposers of that law to state that such was the argument which they hsd used, and it was not right to as cribe to them motives so offensive in the public mind as those which ascribed to them the intention of producing scarcity. The Hon. Gentleman said that the corn-laws limited the quantity of food ; and, conse quently, produced scarcity and disease. He would not (so into the abstract proposition. He would not ask the House to consider what would be the effect of the repeal of the corn-laws upon those classes who depended upon agricultural labour for their maintainence. It might be true that the law which imposed a tax upon the importa tion. of any commodity limited' its consumption That was a question on which he was not then called upon to enter. The Hon. Gentlemen had made a speech which was opposed to the whole protective system.— (Opposition cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman could hardly expect him to go into the argument as to the grounds on which the protective system had originally been adopted; and what encouragement did the Hon. Gentle man hold out to those who might be inclined to modify that system? None whatever. He would accept of no measure short of total repeal.—(Opposition cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman did not argue that the ecru-laws afforded too much protection, or that they afforded pro tection to the agricultural interest different from that which was afforded to every other interest ; and it was competent for him to contend, in opposition to the Hon. Gentleman, that as the principle of protection Wa4 . 6e , knowledged by our law, it was only a practical exem plification of that law, to give protection to the agricul tural interest. He objected to this 'notion, be: cause a confidence in the stability Of a law -was of the utmost importance=- - (Cheers:) The Noble Lord cheered that. If eonfideoct ill the sta bility of a law was to be uricletneined by agitation, what hope was there that he would restore confidence by a fixed duty ?—(Cheers.) It was 'clear the Noble Lord would find himself in the same position as the defer dere of the present lam, for the arguments of the Heen. Mem ber for Wolverhampton *child equally apply to his pro position. The One° of Parliament had been already pros nouateed with regard to the present corn - lax, and he trusted they woud give the law that stability *Melt arose from the exhibition, on their part, of giving a fair trial to a law of which they had not as yet a iloalprehert sive experienee ; but all the etiptelence they had of it realised the most sanguine expectations that had been formed Of lt.—(Cheers.) The Hon. 'Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton end himself *ete both foe stability. But the Hon Geritlenkin weld I deprive at One blow the landlords and farriers of the protection which they had for centuries, and he_ referred to a statement made by hint (Mr. Gladstone), that when a commercial change was to be made, the more rapidly it W. 1.8 done the better. But the Hon. Gentleinan begged the question in supposing they were going to make any thane, In 1842 Parliament had bettoteed a great portion of the public time in discussing the principle and the particulars of the lie believed eighteen nights of that session had been passed in discussing the eOrn-laws. 'They could not renew that every yeah—(beet , . hear.) It Was int= possible they could do so, mid if Parliaident doiiiented to keep a questicln of spelt nittetnitticle in perpetual azitation, it Weald not only be injurious to those whose interests Wete more immediately concerned, but to the Character of Parliament iteelf. Ile claimed tiertiethitig like stability for the deeilione of Peeilantent. — (" Hear , heir," frora Lord the Noble Lord *as quicker than he (Mr. Gladetteto) tvae; add he attadhed raeatilegs to his *tette *Ma he never intended they should bear= &at if Hon. Gentlemen opposite were Willing tts accede to that proposition, he called on them to vote against the motion of the Hon. Member foeWol verha:npton.—(Cheers,) The Huge Gentlerilin bleb flo corh-law—his arguments were charge against the directed inthillst protection of every kind, and he called till them to abolish protection to agriculture as they abolished protection to wool. He denied that wool had any protection. The ditty cf a peony a pound tee at operated as a tat On llritish prodltee. It depressed the price of fleitiele Wool by disethleaging the consumption of articles with which British wool was mixed. Then in stead of abolishing all protection, they awarded protec tion that very year to the growers of cofreeaiidsuea t r h . : night and his stieeeliet for riser occasions. The pre tt (Ironical °been.) lie had observed a marked distinc ' Lion between the sp , eeeh of the Hon, G entleman sent lei had now been in operation twoyears, and they were l ros e ect of the harvest 'years by no means favoura ble to the working of the law, for in the beginning of 1842 the p was very bad, and it turned out to be an abundant one ; and, on the contrary, the first five months of 1343 gave the highest prospect of an abun dant cro p , but the her vweosit. k f e el d l ? oiv had theto h law old law was that it occasione d ra p id fluctuations in price. Now no person could sa y that in greatest objections H those two years, daring which the present law was in operation there had been any unsteadiness of price, and during the present year, in which there was no great change expected, the price of corn had been re markably steady.—(Hear, hear.) The averages kept moving from week to week in scarcely a perceptible de gree, is night lion. Friendi had stated of him that lagging behind ; the landed interest was sure to derive advantage from any law in favoUr of commerce and manufactures. Before he sat down he must say, although the argument of his Hon. Friend was against the whet: protective system - Of the country, he (Lord J. Russell) did lament, when this question was brought fi.rward, that the whole of the case was net stated. — (Hear.) He thought it would be fairer for the country to go through the whole of their system of protection, as it existed both with regard to corn and agricultu ral produce, and the prelim of manufactures; to take every kind of protection as it exis ed, and show that it was all unsound and injurious, for the purpose of abro gating it altogether.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that would be a fairer course in bringing this question for ward than continuing to harangue on the question of the corn-laws, mixed up, as they frequently were, out of that House, with attacks on the landholders of the country. — (Cheers from the Ministerialists.) Those attacks could conduce nothing to the settlement of this coestion.— (Lend cheers from the Conservative benches.) He be lieved th it these attacks on the agricultural interest in general had done much to indispose the landholders—he believed it had dme much to indispose the farmers to any settlement of the question..—(Cheers.) He believed tivat the ilon. President of the Board of Trade had touch foundation for his assertion that the farmers were more indisposed to any change in the law than the land owners —(Hear, hear.) The landholder; were un doubtedly much averse to any change, because they be lieved, like the merchants and manufacturers of former times, that the protective system was the most beeescial to their own interests. But the farmers were still more indisposed to a change than they were, believing that the efforts made with so much pas ion to procure that change were made by men whose zeal blinded them to the true merits of the case. In the present state of sffairs they could not expect a settlement of the question, and he regretted that the agitation should be prolonged from year to year, as the Government was determined for the present to continue the law. Still he believed that a time would come, when those principles which were held to be sound on every other subject, would finally be held to be sound with regard to the article of corn.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. W. MILES said he did commisserate the present con dition of the Noble Lord—(Cheers and laughter)—but he trusted that many gentlemen opposite would 'folow his ex ample, and not vote at ail, rather than, while advocating a fixed duty, countenance the ab dition of the whole protective system. The Noble Lord hat expressed a wish that there should be a eampromise on this question; but he called on the Govern ment, and on the gentlemen of the landed interest, to submit to no compromise. —( Loud cheers.) He felt truly happy at having heard the speech that night delivered by the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade. ( Cheers.) A more holiest speech in defence of that protection to agriculture given by the Bill of 1842, he had never heard.— (Cheers.) It completely bore out what had been elicited from the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the GoVernment, that he was determined to stand by the arrangement of last year. —( An Hon. Member—" But this year.") The Hon. Mem ber said this year; but he (Mr. Miles) had a confidence in words as they were stated.—(Cheers.) He did not agree with the Hon. Member for Manchester, nor did he believe of t o h wo r n, o l w ?sa—ke( d sc iffi ht : e m ea l ro t s i . e t t isl? t i n —,az t c h iht e eeirus w .s)t aL wH o aes f the importation of wished itw h i e se co f u o l r d bring bsfore them, as strongly as the subject required, the conditio t of the productive classes. It was a sacred duty, acknowledged by both sides of the Mouse, to do the utmost to improve the condition of the working classes.—( Cheers.) Their condition was most wretched ; they had only to look around them to satisfy themselves that such was the cave. The state of the capitalists exhibited a thousand symptoms of the unhappy con sequences of this state of things.--(Cheers.) The higher the profits were the smaller amount of capital was required to en • able the tradesman to get a living. On the other hand, a low rate of profit necessarily threw all the trade of the country into few hands, to the utter ruin of persons of humble means. This gave rise to those overgrown establishments which ruined the smaller traders, and occasioned that marked division of society into a few rich and many poor, which the Right Hon. Baronet had, when he introduced the property-tax, deplored as one of the greatest of social evils. Hence originated the diffi culties under which the middle classes were suffering; hence the over-crowding of professions. The state of the labouring classes was worse. They had heard of the miserable state of the labourers in the agricultural districts.—(`r No, no;' from Colonel Sibthorp.) The Gallant Member for Lincoln, like himself, came from a part of the country which was comparatively prosperous, and Lincolnshire was a proof of the truth of his argument ; for Lincolnshire owed its prosperity to the fact that, within the last century , a considerable quantity of additional land had been brought into cultivation. In the north of England the agricultural labourer ties comparatively well off; but it must be admitted with regard to the agricultural labourers in the south of Englan I, that nothing c-uld be more deplorable than their condition. In Dorsetshire, Suffolk, and Wiltshire, the greatest distress prevailed. The case of the sempstresses of London was a symptom of the same evil—of the pressure of a crowded population upon the means of subsis tence, which forced them to offer their labour for the lowest amount of remuneration. Some persons proposed emigration as a remedy ;_but her Majesty's Government did not concur in this view. He agreed in the views entertained on this subject by the Hon. Member for Liskeard, but in his opinion that would not be a cure to the present evil. If they did not re move the evil, they ought at least to forbear to aggravate the evils of the poor of this country. That was all the poor aske), and they had a right to ask it. They wanted a fair day's wages for a fair day's labour.—( Hear, hear.) It was but an act of justice to relieve the poor from the pressure of artificial restraints. All other remedies would prave ineffectual. The poor-laws were alleged by some to be the cause of the evil. He admit ted that in cases of sickness and icjury the poor had a right to be relieved, but general charity, besides being a degradation, would only aggravate the present evil. Others said it was owing to greedy masters who ground down the poor. Now, he did not believe that the manufacturers or the farmers were to be blamii for the lowness of wages, but wages were „eovertrd by causes over which neither had any contrel, being regulated by the quantity which the supply bore to the demand for labour.—(Hear, hear.) They had the power, if they chose to exercise it, of giving the poor relief by taking off those restrictions which every man knew in his conscience to be inconsistent with those principles which Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite maintained, in what they called the abstralt.—( Hear, hear.) He to'd them to be ware how they persevered in such a system. This wis a ques tion of rents, and nothing els s. —( Hear, hear.) He wished well to land and the landed interest, because his interest was involved with theirs, and he was firmly persuaded, if they looked well into the matter, they would find it for their own advantege not to persevere in a course of legislation which was injurious to all the other classes of the community. The history of re striction for the last thirty years furnished abundant instances of agricultural distress. It was their bounden duty to consider what was the condition of the humbler classes. This duty they should not neglect. A melediction bad been pronounced by divine authority against those who withheld from the la bourer his hire, and he thought the malediction would equally apply to those legislators who perseveredin maintaining a law, the evils of which were fully as great as depriving the labourer of his hire. In that guilt he (Lord Howick) could not take his share. They should beware how they trifled with the feelings of the people. All experience proved that justice had been too long withheld from the people ; but justice would be in the end extorted, and, he feared, something more than justice. There were symptoms which showed that they were not far distant from that end. He knew that in the present constitution of that House, no danger might be anti cipated from any sudden political change. But what he appre hended was, that a commotion would ensue without doors, having for its object a very different distribution of political power than that which at present existed. The people were under the impression that political power was at present ex ercised by the few for the benefit of that few, and the oppres sion of the many. The people of the country were, he feared, being impressed with the conviction that, under the present system they could not obtain justice. There was, he feared, a bitter dislike of existing institutions becoming prevalent amongst them, and when once the persuasion that these insti tutions were adverse to their welfare got possession of the peo ple, that moment the days of the existence of these institutions were numbered. Col. SIBTHORP—There was no such dislike. Lord HOWICK feared the symptoms of it were too manifest. How else could the universal prevalence of Chartism in the ma nufacturing districts be accounted for ? It had been asked why the League did not hold meetings in the north of England—in the manufacturing diatricts. The question was thus solved. It was not because the Chartists were favourable to the existing corn-laws, but because they expected that by uniting themselves with the middle classes, they would ultimately overthrow both the corn-laws and the institutions of this country. It was what these men termed a knife and fork question—it was a question of food. They believed the cause of the dearness and scarcity of food was class-legislation. They must be mistaken in the remedies which they proposed. but he (Lord H. )firmly be lieved that class legislation was the chief cause of their miserable condition. He would further say that he did believe that God had so constituted the world that, with fair legislation, honest in dustry could not but obtain just remuneration. If they wished to obliterate those impressions from the minds of the working classes, they must improve their condition. If they wished to take away from them the desire for a new distribution of political power they must give them cheap road. Reference had already been made in the course of that debate to the existence of incendierism. The Right . Hon. Gentle man the President of the Board of Trade, said he was net pre pared to deny that distress was one great cause of the pre valence of that crime. He (Lord Howick) was persuaded that this was the cause. The discontent which prevailed had arisen from the pressure of distress. Some very interesting letters had lately appeared in the Times en this subject. The writer of those letters attributed the distress existing in Suffolk to a perverson of the new poor law, and to the re-establishment of some of those abuses which existed under the old law. It appeared that the agricultural labourers were not paid according to the value of their labour, but according to what the overseer con ceived to be their wants. The wages of single men were con sequently much reduced. He (Lord Howick) thought this was a matter which the Poor-law Commissioners ought to inquire into and check.— ( Hear, hear.) But he thought the whole matter was to be traced to the existence of the corn-laws. If the corn-laws were not in existence there would not be that competition for land which at present ex isted, whereby the farmer was prevented from giving his labourers a fair remuneration for their labour. He (Lord Howick) believed that the corn-law was an obstacle to agr - cultural improvement. It was one cause of the indisposition which existed to take leases. It was a distrust in the stability of the existing law which prevented improvement. So long as there was a fear of foreign competition so long would there be a want of agricultural improvement. lie would ask the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire, not to show himself ready to undertake a great experiment for the sake of ameliorating the condition of the working classes only with respect to those with whom his own interests were not affected. He asked him not to shrink from the same experiment with the same noble object, where his own class and his own party were affected.—( Hear, hear.) If no other means could prevail, he asked him to join them„ against those measures of restriction which no one dared to defend on principle, which the very President of the Board of Trade had shrunk from defending on any sound principle of com merce ; when that Noble Lord saw the unhappy state of the population in conjunction with these laws, that some thing must be wrong, that there must be impedi ments in the way of that system which Providence evidently meant to be the system of the world, by which the abun• dance of one nation was sought to supply the scarcity of another. Seeing this, he asked the Noble Lord to join them in refusing any longer to tolerate protection, while the great body of the people were oppressed by the excessive competition of the means of life, that system of laws, the object and effect of which was acknowledged to be the restriction of the facilities for introducing into the country the supply of food for the maintenance of the people.—(Cheers.) On the motion of Colonel RUSHBROOKE, the debate was then adjourned. WELSH TURNPIKES. Sir J. GRAHAM moved for leave to bring in aßill to solidate and amend the laws relating to the turnpike trusts in Wales. The Right Hon. Baronet stated the purpose of his measure, which is to send down a Commission to inquire into the value of the trusts, to report upon the same, and, the secu rity of the tolls being given, to empower the Exchequer Loan Commission to advance money to the trusts, the whole of which are gradually to be placed under the management of county instead of local boards. The county boards were to ad minister the roads throughout each county : the roads were to be vested in them, and by the Act provision was made gene rally for reducing the present amount of tolls. Provision was also made for the appointment of a superintendent with a resi dence in South Wales. Leave was then giv C en OUNT Y to brin RgATES in the Bill. Sir J. Y. BULLER obtained leave to bring in a Bill for amending the law respecting the assessment and levying of county rates. SALE OF BU ['TER AND CHEESE. On the motion of Mr. CRIPPS, the House went into Com mittee on the Acts relating to the sale of butter and cheese, and in Committee. Mr. CRIPPS obtained leave to bring in a Bill to amend those Acts. DISSENTERS' CHAPELS BILL. The third reading of this Bill was adj?urneel to Friday next the country agreed with hiin ; but he believed the country did agree with the determination of the Government, to give a full trill to their own Bill. As to the Protection Societies that had been alluded to, it was said that they were losing ground, while the League was gaining power. But it should be remembered that.the Protective Societies were only defensive, while the League was an attacking body. The League interfered in electrons, but what had its interference done for it ?—( Loud cheers.) Look at all the elections of the present year. There was one Hon. Member, indeed, whom he was glad to see in that House—the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Bouverie); but look at all the other elections, those for Wiltshire, Salisbury, and every . plica they haJ contested; what had these contests won for tnern? Look at South Lancashire !—( Loud cheers.) What was the result there? One Hon. GentL , rnan was sent to that House, as he said himself, to be the advocate of pro tection. —(Cheecs. ) But he must say that the League al ways saw eves ything in the most favourable light ; wherever they were totally defeated, they were sure to claim a great moral victory! —(Cheers and laughter.) The Hon. Member for Stockport had described the voters of the rural districts of Lancashire as mere bipeds driven to the poll by their landlords. —( Hear, hear.) But let them look at the votes given at Manchester and Liverpool, even in these great manufacturing towns the votes were very equally divided, and he believed that the wealth and intelligence of these places were in favour of protection. And what was the result of their vast efforts in other parts of the kingdom—had they taken anything by it ? On the contrary—had they not raised up against themselves a vast moral force, which they would find a great difficulty . in putting d)wn ?—(Hear, hear.) Had they not arrayed avant them, in self defence, the whole of the farmers of England ?—( Loud cheers.) It should be recollected that the landlords were the last to move in this question. They were told that this law was now completely condemned by public opinion. Though he did not approve of his motion, he thought the Honourable Member for Knaresborough had very fairly stated the case regarding the manufacturing popu lation. If the question were completely settled in the manu• facturing districts, why did they not hold their meetings there, as they had done in many cases in the agricultural districts? lie believed it was because they dared not.—(Cheers.) It was suspected in the manufacturing districts that their object in cheapening bread was to cheapen labour.—(Hear, hear.) To the agricultural population they declaimed on the advan tage of having—a large loaf at a cheap rate. This was a most delightful theme, and one exceedingly likely to catch the at , tention of the audience, for he had no hesitation in saying that in some parts of the agricultural districts, wages were much too low.—( Hear, hear.) But, at the same time, having read their papers and pamphlets, he must say that they entirely failed to show how this loaf was to be obtained. It had fre quently been stated that the present corn-laws inflicted scarcity on the people, but he theue,hf that point had been satisfactorily disposed of by his Right lion. Friend. He maintained that the people had their bread at a reasonable price, and that there was no stoppage in the transactions of commerce, whilst he saw nothing but ruin staring the farmer and labourer in the face if the corn-laws were repealed. The Honourable Member then referred to a statement of Lord °neje to the effect that even with free trade wheat grown on the Cotswold Hills would yield to the cultivator a profit of twelve per sent. ; and cited the authority of three farmers in the neighbourhood, stating that in that case the poorer portion of the lands would be thrown out of cultivation. He thanked the House for having heard him so long at that late hour— ( Hear, hear)—and he only asked the House to consider the position in which the agriculturists were placed. In the agita tion of this question the farmers had nobly done their duty. —( Cheers and !au/aen) Throughout the length and breadth of the land they had declared that they would have no less than the present protection, and after what had been said by his Right Hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury, he had no doubt that the protection would not be diminishel If agricul ture were allowed to perish, the best interests of the land would perish with it.—(Cheers and laughter.) Lord HO WICK, who rose amidst loud cries of " Adjourn, said—that at this late hour, when an adjournment was wished for by the House, he was reluctant to occupy any time. But as it was also to be wished that the debate should close to-mor row night—(Cries of " Now, now," and " Go on, go on ") he would take that opportunity of making the few observa tions which he had to make upon the question. He agreed with his Noble Friend ( Lord J. Russell) that the form in which the subject tsar now brought forward was inconvenient, and that it would have been better if his Hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton had rn ,ved for a Committee of the whole House; he would have more willingly supported it. With all that ineoneenience, he would support the motion.— ( Hear, h ear .) The question was now between the existing law and total repeal.—( Hear, heir.) It wee the Government that had brought the question to this etate.( Hear, hear.) The Hetise seat dfieen to determine between two extreme pro positions, and he for one, stolid prefer the vote for the total repeal of the law. They had just ben told by a Member for a large agricultural county, that the wages of the agricultural labourer were much too low, and it had been shown that in manufacturing districts the wages were too low. The Right Hon. Vardriet at the head of the Government had stated that wages and profits were so low, that he could not risk a reduction of the hours of labour.—( Hear.) Having these admissions, that both agriculture and manufactures were suffering in the same wily, hew meld there be a more important inquiry, than was propeieci by this rtiotim, into the cause of such a state of things?—( Hear.) On that ground he was prepared to give his support to this motion. There was a low and the inadea- uete reard of labour and a low r f prfits, which were ttributaole r dritirely ttt corn-laws ate (Cheers.) Ile would confine the few observations he hid to make to that one point. The Hen. Member for Knaresboroueh had niotted an amend ment, that it was a calamity to the pourer classes that their clothes and other Matters should be made with greater rapidity than tefmerly t He %tendered that he did not propose to go back to the aboriginal liystetit.-e( Het', hear.) In manufac tures there had been a great inereerie Of productive power, and so there had been in agriculture, bat not t ) the sexed extent. Each individual labourer in agriculture produced more of human food than the labourer of the last century, and they produced two or three times as much food as in the time of Elizabeth the labourers did. Well then, if labourers were so successful in producing food and clothing at the present day, how was it that they had less remuneration than in ancien t da y s? The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, had admitted the labourers were in a bad condition in the west of England ; but why was it that the men had bad wages, and their masters bad profits? Taxation did not affect it, because, during the last 25 years taxes to a large amount had been taken off, but the condition of the labourers and capitalists had not been im proved by it. If taxes did not afford any explanation what did? Why, the monopoly of land in England. That he was right in this view of the subject was proved by the fact, that wher ever land was abundant the wages of labour were high. This was the case in Canada, and in South Australia. The Canadian labourer, with less facilities for labour, was paid better than the English labourer, and had better food and habitations. The reason of this was, that there was a large field for employment, whereas the field was extremely limited in this country. Monopoly and restriction must diminish wages and reduce profits. This must always be the effect of a restrictive system. It was a monstrous injustice to prevent the poor man from making the most of his labour. It was a peculiar injustice on the part of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, who, during the late debates on the Factory Bill, had enlarged so much on the sacred right of every man to the pro duce of his own labour, and that it was an injustice to interfere HOUSE OF LORDS, June 25. by law with his right to dispose of it. Did they not now inter- The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool fere ?—( Loud cheers.) If the labourer could exchange the sack at Five o'clock. produce of his labour for thirty quarters of foreign corn, and Messengers from the Commons brought up the Salmon they prevented him from from doing so, and compelled him to Fisheries (Scotland) Bill, and the Brighton and Chiches exchange it for British corn, of which he could only procure ter Railway Bill. twenty qaarters in exchange for the same amount of labour, OPENING LETTERS AT THE POST-OFFICE. were they not robbing him of one-third of the fruits of his The Earl of RADNOR rose for the purpose of roe labour.—(Cheers.) He did not assume that those were the newing the motion which he had made the other even proportions ; but whatever were the proportions, in those • mg on the subject of opatinT, letters at the Post-office ; proportions they deprived him of the fruits of his bon- Th ey and he really . thought that, consistently with the argu est industry and gave it to another.—(Cheers.) took from that man that to which he was fairly entitled.— ments which he had used the other evening, the Noble (Loud cheers.) This was not taxation for the benefit of the Duke ought to consent to the motion. The principal state.—( Cheers.) All classes were equally interested in main- argument used against the motion was, that there was taining the necessary machinery of Government. But this no allegation that the power vested in the Secretary of taxation was not for the purpose of raising money. Right Hon. State of issuing warrants for opening letters at the Post- Gentlemen opposite repudiated the idea of continuing these office had been abused. Now their Lordships could not laws for the sake of revenue.—(Cheers.) They continued them but be aware, from what had occurred in another place, for the purpose of protection—for the purpose of agricultural that accusations had been made that the power had been protection, which was depriving every other class of the corn used for purposes for which it was not necessary, and munity of the power of exchanging the produce of their labour no attempt had been made to disprove those accusations ; with those who would give them the most for it.—(Cheers.) and ho felt that it was necessary that something should It was shutting them out from the cheapest market, and com pelling the weavers , Cutlers , and other labourers of this country be dine to retrieve the chara cter of the countr y .—(Hear.) to go to the dearest market for the purchase of their food.— He would not eni;er into any argument as to the pro ( Cheers.) That was the real meaning of agricultural protec- priety or impropriety of the existence of this power in the tion.—(Cheers.) It was a gross injustice to the other classes. hands of the Secretary of State of stopping letters, al -(Cheers.) In all fully peopled countries there was a ten- though he thought that it ought not to exist, nor as to dency is profits and wages to fall—that tendency was in some the propriety of extending the power of these warrants degree checked by that machinery of which the Member for to the opening of more than one letter. He thou g ht the Knaresborough entertained so ill a n o p inion, b utif they allowed ,aw required food to be freely imported from abroad, althou g h it would not J . that a separate war rant should be issued for 'the opening of one letter. He believed that stop that tendency, yet it would so check it that it would not the law intended to confine that power to matters re he felt as an evil by the great body of the community.— Cheers.) It was the means which had been appointed by lating to internal policy only. lie did not believe that Providence to make the resources of thinly inhabited countries I that law was intended to give the Secretary of State the available to older peopled countries.—(Cheers.) Was it, right power of stopping letters at the Post-office, except in to interfere with that process ? and not for the purposes of cases where the personal safety of her Majesty, or the revenue, but for the benefit of a particular class to , well-being of the realm, was at stake. Now, no one FIELD G ARDEN& Mr. COWPER brotight in a Bill to enable parishes to make further provision for the increase of field gardens for the labouring poor. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-past One. who had considered what had occurred in another place, ment to inquire into the mode in which it was exercised could entertain a doubt but that certain foreigners had —(Cheers)—for the purpose of seeing whether or not, had their letters opened and examined, out of no con- hereafter, there should be proper limits applied to that sideration for the safety of the State of England, ' power, whether certain restrictions should not be im or of her Majesty.—(Hear, hear.) Petitions had posed upon the exercise of it, and whether rules should been presented to the other House from divers person-, not be laid down within which alone the power could complaining that their letters had been opened and read ever be usefolly, beneficially, consistently with honour, at the Post •office. One of these was a foreigner of em- f exercised at all.—(Hear.) appeared that a letter had siderable literary attainments, who was admired and I been opened from an individual did not appear to beloved by all who knew him. It was admitted that a ' be involved in any treasonable ". concerns whatever. He wa rr ant had been issued fur opening the letters of one' did not mean to deny that the Secretary t of State mi g ht of these persons. Last night a petition had been pre- have been bound to open that letter; heor one of the un seated with a similar complaint from another foreigner— fortunate circumstances of the power possessed . was . that person had not been mixed up in the politics of this that the Secretary of State was compelled,measure, country, but he had, unfortunately for himself, been to exercise that power in the dark. Talk of lu a is respon mixed up in the liberal politics of foreign countries. Ile sibility—was he responsible to the House ha I taken refuge here, and had been well received ; but No : it was a matter of secresy, which he could not dise whilst here he had been exposed to the having his let close. Was he responsible to the House of Lords ? tors examined and his secrets made known to those who, No : the House of orti s must suppose that the Secre if they could not wreak their vengeance on him, could tary of State . had done what he felt justified in at least do so on his friends.—(Hear, bear.) These cir- doing. Was he responsible to the Government ? cumstanees had produced a great feeling in the No : because the Noble Duke public mind of this country, and he (Lord R.) could notand the other Mem bers of her Majesty 's Got H er e nment had no know help feeling shame, and disgrace for his country, in ledge of the circumstances.—(Hear, staces.— . ar, and a laugh.) But which which such conduct was tolerated.—(Hear, hear.) the question was, whether, the ( p t e h m at words of the Act He could not help thinking that the Noble Duke who of Parliament, it was intended u this power should be had done more to revive the character of this country exercised to suchi an extent ? The statute of Aloe de than any one living, who was conspicuous for the gal- Glared that the Post-office authorities ' should be subject lantry, the straight-forwardness, and the open-hearted- to certain penalties for the delay of any letter, except the ness of all his conduct—(Cheers)—would not willingly delay was made under the warrant of the Secretary of consent to make this country the police-office of every State.—(Hear.) That was the extent to which the petty state in Europe.—(Cheers.) He hoped the Noble statute went.—(Hear.) Then, to the warrant, he Duke participated in his feeling on this subject, and he should think that theearran f t: o wo as u a ld ll flow not from the would therefore renew the motion which he made the Secretary of State alone,. but theM'niters, act other night, that an humble address be presented to her ing upon the necessity of the mcase, forwhich might . be so Majesty, praying her Majesty to lay before their Lord- overpowering as to form an excusethe exercise of ships c pies of all warrants issued by her Majesty's Sc- such extraordinary power. But that power appeared to cretary of State authorising the opening of letters at the exist without the sliitest responsibility, and in such a Post-office. ~ manner, that he did not think the English Parliament The Duke of WELLINGtON w as grateful to the or the English people would any longer endure Noble Lord for the expressiocs he had used with regard (Cheers.) He did nut consider this a t. que 6 stion of expe . - to himself, and was sensibll,of'the kind feelings of the diency or inexpediencys but a l u d es no mn of right hl anti Noble Lord towards him pensonally ; but as their Lord- wronee—(Hear, hear.) He Amu (' ships were aware he had a duty to perform to that necessary to show that it was wrong foreretZ he e e o s i w e h v e o r e to House with regard to motions of this description, and exist in the person of one individual than is his duty was to urge their Lordships to resist this ino- think it necessary to contend that it was wrong to pickshould Lion as not consistent with the public interests or the pocket.—(Hear.) It might indeed be necessary, ner public security. Parliament had thought fit to entrust some extreme circumstances, that measures of ' personal the Secretary of State with certain powers to issue war- restriction, or affecting a man's property, s should be re rants for the opening of letters addressed to individuals sort: dto ; but that there should be this kind of irrespon at the Post-office. Those powers had long existed in sibility in the exercise of the power he nevero doubt ;for, could agree. this country, and , had been exercised from the days of As to Mr. Fox , he issued such a warrant, n Queen Anne. The Post-office laws had been revised in coming into office at the period which he did, at a time the ; t the last year of his late Majesty and the first year of the of the utmost disturbance, when all Europe was leagued e reign of her present Majesty, and an Act confirminn against England, and England was by no means at those powers had then passed. The Postmaster-General, peace with herself, it would have been a most unwise . an taking office, made a declaration that he would cause - abandonment of the power he possessed if he had not all letters t) be delivered as directed, except when re- issued his warrant ttli Postmaster-General at that quired by a warrant from the Secretary o f State to send time. But it must have cost e as him_ dear. What must be those letters to be examined, in accordance with that the feelines of such a man andbecoming Secretary of State, upon warrant. There could be no doubt but that power had opening a private letter, been confided to the Secretary of State, and he submitted circumstances of whic ul acquainted with he would wish to be ignorant, to their Lordships that the Secretary of State was bound to and afterwards meeting the was in private life exercise that power whenever his duty rendered it ne- with the consciousness that he •'. sin possession of cessary far him so to do. Under these circumstances, secrets a-Yell that individual would w notwish any third he was sure their Lordships would well consider before person t o know.—(Hear.) He thought sm r. Fox must they would ewer into any inquiry upon the exercise of have said to himself; under such circumstances, — that power. They ought to have certain proof that this " Res dune, et regni novitas me talia cogunt power had been used for an improper purpose, before " Moliri ' et late fines custode tueri !"—(Cheers.) they m vie any inquiry upon the matter.. With regard It was said by his Noble and Learned Friend, and said to the discussion of that subject in another place, he did truly, that some political rival, or political enemy, might not know that there was any proof whatever that any letter had been opened, except that a warrant had been succeed him in office, and then he might be improperly - called on to answer for that which was no crime, and issued for the opening of one letter. He had n o kn o w ledge whatever on the subject himself , and ha d no ac- therefore, he must keep the warrant, which was his jus tification ; but, suppose, with the experience he pos count whatever to give upon it ; but he would submit to their Lordships, that unless they were con vinced b y the sensed, he had been rash enough to transmit that docu ment to his solicitors, his successor in office would have evidence before them that the power entrusted to the deprived him at once of his defence, and he might then Secretary of State for the Home Department had been have been punished fur the act. Fortunately, there • abused, they ought to resist this motion, and he therefore " as an inconsistency in human nature, which prevented could not consent to the motion. The Eid of TANKERVILLE said he had in his pos- people who did possess and exercise hateful powers, acting consistently with themselves upon other occa session documents which proved that the practice of sions ; and a high and dignified character would keep a opening letters at the Post-office was of frequent occur man from abusing a power to the extent to which it nonce. He had in his possession warrants which had was now supposed to have been abused.—(Hear, hear.) been issued for opening the letters of all foreign Minis- But undoubtedly it never could be exercised without tens of every rank and grade. Those warrants were great pain to any honourable mind called upon . issued by the Right Hon. Charles James Fax. The to exercise it.—(Hear, hear.) But, then, beyond the same kind of warrant was also issued with respect to the possession of it, the acting upon it, and the using letters of Lord George Gordon. He (the Earl of Tan of it, there were circumstances of concealment, and kerville) thought this was a power which ought to be something very like forgery. — (Loud cries of "Hear, exercissd by the Government. - hear.") Those things had a tendency to demoralise the The Marquie •f CLANRICARDE said their Lor d public mind.—(Hear.) It was well known that many of ships must have felt interested in the statement which the the subordinate officers and servants of the Post-office Noble Earl had just made. From what his Noble Friend unfortunately were too much 'in the habit of overlooking had stated, it would appear that the affairs of the Post the obligations which honesty ought to impose upon office were not regulated as they ought to be, for he had them ; and he could not think that the knowledge that stated that he had in his possession documents of im the great heads of that department, and persons of su portence, which ought, properly, to have remained in the eerier positions, used such a power, would be any check Must-office. It would be remembered that the case to upon the improper and dishonest desires of such per which the Noble Earl had referred was ono which took sons when letters were entrusted to their care.—(Hear, place at a time of war, when it was absolutely necessary hear.) It appeared to him to be too much, that when the for the Government to make themselves acquainted with the Government of this country imposed upon all its natives, correspondence of all foreign Ministers. But in the present as well as upon those of all parts of the world, the nee case ' the individual respecting whose letters the warrants cessity of paying them a large revenue for doing the had been issued was a private individual, and had never duty . of letter-carriers, that they should at the same time been engaged in any way against the peace of this country. retain in their hands the power of opening all the letters In the case of Lord George Gordon the exercise of such they were entrusted to convey.—(Hear.) a power was necessary, because the times were disturbed, The Duke of WELLINGTON—RepeaI Repal the Act. and the peace of the country was endan g ered. It was Lord DENMAN thought it might be a very impor said this was a matter of confidence in the Government, twit question whether or not the Act should be repealed ; but they were also told that the Minister acts on his or, at least, whether restrictions might not be imposed own responsibilty. What was this responsibility if, when which should leave a certain degree of power, much a matter of this kind became known, the Minister stood more definable and responsible than that existing at upon the confidence that must be placed in the Govern present—a power subject to the revision of Parliament. ment I—(Hear, hear.) If any Cabinet Minister got up —(Hear, hear.) He apologised to their Lordships for and d Glared upon his own knowledge and his own ere- detaining them with these observations ; but this sub dibility that there was anything dangerous to the Go jeet not having occupied his mind until these transac vernment of this country going on he would believe tions were recently brought under public notice, he had him.—(Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that such a considered it, and thought it necessary to declare his .- power ought to be placed in the hands of the Govern ment ; but when it was deemed necessary to open a let- conviction that there ought to be some restrictions put ter it ought to be signified to the person to whom the c ony the exercise of this power.—(Hear, hear.) letter was addressed, and there was no reason why a The Earl of DEVON said that from the speech of the Government should he ashamed to do this if there was Noble Lord it would appear that he advocated the repeal just grounds for opening the letter.—(Hear, hear.) But of the existing Act. He did not see what could be it was contrary to all honour and justice to intercept a gained even if the warrant were obtained, for it would man by having a watch over his correspo ndence.— give no information except that it was issued, and that (Hear, hear.) He hoped his Noble Friend would make was admitted. If the motion before the House were some motion on the subject, either for a Committ ee of granted, it would justify similar motions in every other Inquiry, or for the particular warrant. The people of case. He did not think there were sufficient grounds for this country would have no confidence in any Govern- the motion of the Noble Earl. ment that would resort to the hateful practice of opening Lord RADNOR, in reply, said, that after what he letters which passed through the Post-office. had heard from both sides of the House he should not • The Earl of TANKERVILLE explained. press his motion to a division ; but withdraw it, mean- The Earl of HADDINGTON admitted that there ing upon some future occasion to bring it forward in was nothing which ought to be so sacred as private con- another shape.—(Hear, hear.) In what form he should respondence passing through the Post-office, and no again introduce this subject to their Lordships' atten- Minister could take a more fearful responsibility on non lie should take a little time to consider.—(Hear, himself than by rashly, or lightly, or without necessity, hear.) He could understand why the Noble Duke touching any letter passing through that department.— could not state whether or no this transaction was the (Hear, hear.) It seemed to be admitted, on all hands, consequence of some intimation from a foreign power, that this power was necessary, and, indeed, it must exist because he afterwards said he knew nothing at all about in every country which had a Government at all. it.—(A laugh.) He apprehended that a Secretary of When the Government, the country, or the Crown, was State would not go to his colleagues to ask them if he endangered, such a power was absolutely necessary, and should issue a warrant or not. But after this matter had was admitted by all. But he would go further than been discussed so much, after it had been brought for- - those who seemed to think that anything which occur red ward in the House of Commons, and mentioned by him abroad could not be a legitimate object for the exercise is theirLordships' House,and again debated inthe House of such a power. He could conceive plots and cabals of Commons on the previous night, and after the great taking place on the continent of Europe, of which this sensation it had created in the country . , it was not a little country was made the centre of correspondence, the singular that all the Cabinet Ministers except the result of which might be to involve the world in a war, Secretary of State, who issued the warrant, -,O and this country amongst the rest. He held, therefore, should know nothing about it.—(Hear, hear.) ee, that it was a power that must be vested in the Secretary If any one of those Noble Lords opposite had got . :"'; of State. Doubtless, the power was an odious on e— u p and stated that they knew that there were sufficient a.:). a most unpleasant one for a Secretary of State to hold ; grounds for issuing the warrant, he should have been but, from its very form and nature, it was one, regarding ready to believe him ; but none of them had ventured to the execution of which no disclosures could be made. say that.--(Hear, hear.) But the ignorance of the Their Lordships, in his opinion, could not wisely or Noble Earl at the head of the Admiralty was made properly interfere with a confidence which, it should be rather more onerous than if he had known anything recollected, was not a voluntary and a free, but a necessary about the matter, by the attempting to justify the con confidence. And he ventured to assert that there was no- duct of the Home Secretary by supposing the existence thing in the character of the present Government to call of some political intrigue between the British Govern for or to justify any such interference. Of course, it ment and a Foreign Power, and affirming that a Secre might occur that a Secretary of State was misinformed tary of State might open a letter which might lead to or imposed upon, but whether his Right Hon. Friend the opening of a war in that Foreign State, which war (Sir J. Graham) had been so or not he could not say, might possibly lead to the opening of a general war. for he knew no more of the matter than the rest of their That was rather a far-fetched justification.—(Hear, Lordships. He trusted the House would not sanction hear, and laughter.) He did not admit that the opening the motion, but, by negativing it, assert the confidence of a letter was a slight injury.—(Hear.) One letter was which, in all such matters, must necessarily be placed in spoken of ; but a great many . letters bad been opened, the Secretary of State. and the practice had been going on for a length of time, Lord CAMPBELL said, if any Member of the which would be proved before a Committee of Inquiry. Government had only come forward and asserted, on —(lean) The letter of a gentleman might be pried his own personal responsibility, that the interference into for the gratification of some enemy, or, as it was complained of had been necessitated by circumstances, he surmised, to pander to the purposes of some Foreign should have been satisfied.—(Hear, hear.) But no one Power. Thus individuals were injured, and the character did this. The Noble Lord who spoke last admitted that of this country degraded.—(Hear.) This was a subject he was totally unacquainted with the circumstances of upon which the country felt keenly, and demanded ta. thr ease, and other Members of the Government de- quiry and a proper understanding.—(Hear.) dined to give any satisfactory answer to the complaints The Earl of HADDINGTON explained. that were made. For his (Lord Campbell's) part, be- The motion was then, by consent, withdrawn. tween the breaking open of a letter, and the breaking The Earl of WHARNCLIFFE laid on the table a re open of a desk he could see no difference. port from the Commission of National Education is Lord DENMAN—Yes, it is much worse. Ir eland. Lord CAMPBELL—True; it'was worse. The breach CHARITABLE BEQUESTS (IRELAND) BILL. of confidence was greater, from the secresy which neces- The Earl of WHARNCLIFFE moved the second sarily encompassed the transact ion. Seein g that no readin g of this Bill, and explained the object of it, na rl e n r u t he a di - avowal of justifying circumstanc es was made b y the but in so low a tone olchveoicterasthtast were to be u y ed i Government, he thought a pr ima f acie case had been ble in the gallery. as made out for consideration and inquiry. There were direction of a board, consisting of the Lord Chancellor,. two foreigners who declared that their letters had been the Master of the Rolls, and ten others, to be appointed ' opened—one no doubt in corres p ondence with friends in by her Majesty s Government, who were to be such as the Austrian states, the other with the Pope's dominions. would possess the confidence of her Majesty's Roman Unless the Ministers declared that they had not acted Catholics in Ireland. for the gratification of foreig n gov ernments, he could The Earl of WICKLOW e with it because ressed his concurrence not see how their Lordships , w it h any sense of propriety, in the Bill. He was the more gratified could refuse to inquire into the grievance complained of. it showed that the subject of an endowment for the Could any body say that it was for the purpose of avoid- Roman Catholic clergy was under the consideration of' ing a foreign war, that the opening of these letters had the Government. lie was afraid, however, that the taken place? The matter ought not to be allowed to present Bill would render that most wise and salutary rest. The character of the country had been compro- measure most difficult. raised, and it was indispensable to the honour of the The Bishop of EXETER support h ed te measure be country that further investigation sh ould be made. cause lie thought it was but an act of justice to the Lord BROUGHAM, in answ er to what his Noble Roman Catholics to place them on the same footing as Friend (the Marquis of Clanricarde) had said with re- the other Dissenters of the country. With regard to the spect to the retention of certain documents endowment of the Roman Catholic Church, that was * of importance by the Postmaster-General, when measure which would receive all the opposition in his it he left office, would only say t hat i t was absolutely p ower, from whatever source it proceeded, because necessary that the Postmaster-General, in l eav i ng o ffice, would be inconsistent with the support which was given should retain those documents as they were his .protec- to the Established Church. He thought the grant to tion. The warrant was only in the proper custody when Maynooth ought to be a warning to them not to end it was in the custody of the Postmaster himself. With the Catholic Church re spect to the motion before their Lordships he (Lord Lord MONTEAGLE expressed his concurrence in the Brougham) could not see how they could fairly call on a Bill, but if they wanted to elevate the character of the public officer, merely upon the assertion that a power priesthood of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, they muss had been exercised, to produce certain documents and increase the grant to Maynooth, and not rest satisfied papers. Another objection to the motion was, that it with allowing them the miserable pittance they now re- Veould produce no good result. He did not think that ceived. • the production of the warrant would throw any light on The Earl of HADDINGTON could not conceive how the subject. the operation of this Bill could have any reference to the The Marquis of CLANRICARDE explained. endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy. Her Ma- Lord DENMAN said he did not consider this motion jesty's Government believed the measure would be se as any impeachment of the Secretary of State for the tisfactory to the Roman Catholics of Ireland brig , and as Home Department , nor was he aware of an y circum- such the Government had great pleasure ill bringing it stances which would lead him to say that the Secretary forward. of State had acted imprope r ly i n th e exerc i s e of this Lord HATHERTON said that he was sure this mea+ most odious and perilous power • but he thought that sure would be hailed as a boon b y the Roman Catholics c i rc umstances had appeared, and were at present the clergy of Ireland. He concurred with his Noble Friend subject of public discussion, connected with- the exercise near him in the sentiments he expressed with regard to of that power, which made it imperative upon Podia- Maynooth. The grant they made to Maynooth was `1 ,~