The Sun. — London, England, 1844-06-18 00:00:00

they i hich the thout a cli c° tIAGE S ' tS I,Ii I id on the secon d day). N). ne tt P EI) postP°biell Heir Lordiso logo t on O r # ) If. said Os', to aCaped conseq` — ntradictio4 Coria illitr pr r ba at W i couB51" K 1 for tbedeli plow 11° S BILL, ; • preseine- ion in f lre c4 W ii Hans io us op brour 131 0 Hr ae, an d lay. BlL Tb oiog concl re 00 0 discussion rION VIII' e. June Gioed .6 --- i nvic _ cp t), towards the close of the debate on Friday, in rain !h e her gentlemen to join him in excluding cur • th s , w ords, a fro in the clause, said, and said very, truly, 4 ; s btll adoption of this suggpstion need not bind any 4 : sa. tiipport the particular proposal of his Hon. Friend. d . f his motion was successful, it would be within d iscretion of those who might support him to make thitty_floposition they might think fit, as an amendment to exelt ° l l the Government. lam sure the Noble Lord will not The Noble Lord Majesty's G overnment from the same privilege. were Lord made a successful appeal to those who e l 'Posed to support the motion of his Hon. Friend, th,re,„_ t sza n ss o u t re the Noble Lord that there are others be influenced by it.—(Latsghter.) For e ens P o l s r P2se of giving the House the opportunity of re- Iktiv .7. 11 1 14. the subject, and saying whether there is n w et ig a i t l in the reasons which I have given to-night epting the proposition of my Hon. Friend, nen the p reposition is brought forward for re d uc i ng eh l i d i uty to 205., I shall move that the duty be 243. I th e make that proposition, not merely because it is ar , e.. l ),a v e which I approve of as preferable for the pro i`:Ll interests of the country, but because I think .4aost unwise to carry any further alteration this year. p‘;‘,A.ci.isider that it is of importance that the countries s o ,7flng sugar, east of the Cape, should know what 1 , 11 7 will be taken in the course of the ensuing regarding the sugar duties. We do not intend itec r s c P°se, at any time, the admission of slave-labour 41 : r on the same footing as we propose to admit sugar 4"l4Produce 6f f ree labour.—(Hear.) It may be said, , why don't you abandon your measure altogether 4411 .1, 3 r0p05e the periodcontinuane existing duties until the iesa T Period, or until some p in the course of the next 4 1,__ L cal? I will state to the House, why I do not adopt that eziTative. Suppose we did altogether adopt that w i t : se-during the next sesssion, if we were entrusted p o , the Government, it might be our duty to make a e s C s a al on the subject of sugars. That proposition tute ` 4 of course involve the admission of tree-labour if a ( 1 1 . * It might involve a considerable reduction of duty, )41 _ 0 14y were proposed on British colonial sugar, and a laburo•oponding reduction on sugar the produce of free s etie a r•—(Hear.) But observe, if there were no previous gi 4 c given, and if you still required certificates of ori the es_ a condition of free-labour sugar—observe, I say, in s I t 3 ,asitien in which we would be placed in approach r6evlaoe consideration of the sugar duties, without any fls notice or any previous steps being taken by arilanent. (At this moment there was considerable m 0 se in the House. The Right Hon. Baronet waited a ' le nie nt, and then finding it did not subside, said he thtd he might be able to obtain silence whilst he stated f at ells the Government intended to pursue. After a li e w r aoments, silence having been restored, the Right tb Baronet proceeded.) If they merely continued p e eXisting sugar duties until next year, and then pro -417 to deal with the general question of the sugar of `es, in what position would they be ?—(lronical cries 11 0 1,, 11 ear, hear," from Lord Howick.) I know the rr le Lord would be relieved from difficulty, because he O u ld admit sue•ar indiscriminately froth all countries tit %. b t ro y e, who entertain a distinction between the tw classes—foreign sugar, free labour and slave th e , 11--- vve should have to consider between eoltwo alternatives, either to reduce the duty on British Obse rve sugar to a considerable extent, and in that case h e e lite what we should be doing—we should, in effect, t ri e t s.tablishing a monopoly in the British market for Alit colonial sugar for several months ; for we should 1 ' for certificates of origin before we could admit American sugar.—(Hear.) Let us assume that we pro siz‘e a reduction on British colonial sugar, amounting to 44 , 'aell shillings—unless we could open some source of k in Petition, the British colonial producers would have a e f e tnPoly in the British market, and the reduced amount p et, ..u,tY would have no effect whatever in creating corn isl°ll.—(Hear, hear.) If we took another course—if toak th e cou rse, to enable our competitors to d et ti r in their su pply, we must make the reduction of the On British sugar take effect from a certain day, h ( Z h t or nine months from that period. Consequently, trhieh theso causes would lie open to all the objections Friend we at present urge. The motion of my Hon. s , ende they fixed a definite day or a definite duty, but the "g°r th e reduced the amount of duty the greater w as 4wh tendency to derange the market and to reduce t he r:PlY.—(Hear.) On that ground lam not inclined to ° Pose a continuance of the present sugar duties, and a use it would interfere with the general policy *l fich h I propose to pursue respecting the sug ar duties. , tent s now stated to the House as fully as is necessary , clearly as I could, the course which the Govern intends to pursue, and the motives which influenced lensi i n making theproposal. lam not, I cannot be in bl • • • e to the position in which the Governent has ass en of late placed—(The Right here, during man • parts of the remainder of his speech, !Poke - Y 1 , 1 in so low a tone of voice as to be frequently but t ;l l 4 , l stinetly heard in the gallery)—nor to the difficulties h have occurred in the progress of legislation. — I ) , e ar, hear.) I cannot help feeling that we have pro praad measures in the coarse of the last and during the tte c t s Plt session in respect to which that progress has but ueen made which we thought might have been made, Which, not having been made, leaves us, I own, in a t i t rY unenviable position.—(Hear, hear.) I will not 'Mt to impute blame to the House, but cannot help th it Y s i ng that I fear we must contemplate, at the close of ‘ s ''' present session, the same result as at the close of ;le last session. —(Hear, hear.) Those measures which t e e r „ ll are proposed—measures connected wit h the in ct;uli. _(Hear, s , policy of the kingdom—have not been sue r er ar, hear.) With respect to some of s a nl, we have not received that cordial support. - "t, and approbation from some of those Hon. Gen seinen who usually support the Government, which we ha d been induced, to expect, and for whose opinion and chara cter we entertain the highest respect. — (Ho ar.) "I bound to say, speaking with perfect candour, that th c annot look for that co-operation and support on the 6 ,e present occasion by holding out eectations of any es -La nge in the measure which we have proposed. The draw we believe to be good, and we must not With eh from it. If the measure does not entitle us to the Goy of Hon. Members who usually vote for the rnment, we deeply regret the forfeiture of that s °n fidence. We did nut expect indiscriminate or ser iae support, but only such as would enable us to ad in h • ueful legislion.—Hear, hear. t course o t ug course e has been to s maintain and protect the exist ) g institutions of the country, and, at the same time, th e maintenance such improvements as are compatible with maintenance necessary for the purpose of *flouring the welfare and tranquillity of the commu 11„citY• We have recorded our desire to relax the system Protection and prohibition, and allow moderate cora . g ti tion between domestic and foreign produce. We 6 v,e attempted, to reconcile the introdu ction of prin „Ties which we believe to be founded on truth with isfery regar d f or ex i s ti ng i n terests, and every precaution ~ prevent embarrassment and undue appr ehension,— (, hear.) We feel it necessary to repeal some of the laws which preceding Parliaments had passed, and i propose a measure of reformation regarding the Ec faisstical C ou rts.—( . Hear, hear.) Her Majesty' s Go vernment have been defeated upon that que stion ; it ma y :Pear a very simple and isolated one ; but we consider it question of great importance. — (" Hear, hear," from psJpposition.) I repeat, we cannot p retend to con ate support support by receding from the pr o p osition we have - "go. 1 wish to speak with perfect candour—l deeply r egret that we have forfeited the confidence of those who generally give us their support ; but I cannot ask you (t urning to the Tory benches.) to vote for us to h•ght by encouraging expectations which we are V.: Prepared to realize. For the eour se which have hitherto taken with respect to t he g radual, safe, hs an circumspect relaxation of those duties on articles ° f p ich c ome into competition with the domes tic p roduce this Country, we cannot say that we entertain any of regret or of repentance, nor any conversion to ‘mereut principles. We are prepared to abide by the ;n urse; w e have pursued—we will cont inue to p rofess the 10 principles, and to proceed in the same course of gr adual Z improvement, and this I feel o bli g ed to declare a Period when important consequences may be the eis s nit•—(Cheers.) 11 4 -ford JOHN RUSSELL rose and said—The Right the Gentleman has brought under the consideration of d r House other and far different topics from that imme diately under discussion. The Right Hon. Baronet has 1 „, -v ,ttefl remarks and discussion upon subjects of deep „'"uhe interest, find from which, being so invited, I can -flint ,forbear e ' ntering ints.—(Hear, hear.) What f e Light Hon. Gentleman proposes in the question be te th e House is simply to reverse the decision of Fri day night.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") It was said enough, that, according to the statement of my Noble Friend, it was competent, according to the 1134:113 of the House, to mo ve an amendment or altera te „L n in the terms of the proposition of the Hon. Member Ti , Brist o l ; b u t it does so happen tha t the change TiTieLich is actually proposed is neither more or less than to sg at ive, by a majority, the decision of Friday night.— a n - ,C ; a r. hear.) The proposal is, that the present sugar Con tinued—that ell the duties on foreign sugar, at least and that the produce of slave labour, be continued ; o . t_ti that our own proposition, a duty of 345. per cwt., S ugar the produce of free labour, be continued. That effect, the very proposal which was placed before he Meuse t i on Friday night , and which the House de ;?' against. I must say, although it is not for me to the the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman at th e he ad of the Government towards his . supporters, h e a t harder terms were never, in my opinion, imposed /t Y , an y Minister.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) kl pears to me that, according to the proposition of the * ri g t Hon. Gentleman, no measure of Government or 1 1 -an ce could be laid before the Legislature upon w ,„- was not prepared to say, " Let us, as the Govern eient iTt opposition i ' o k n e , oautirdproposition—it is your duty to accede to L„ (Loud cheers and cries of " Hear, hear," from the partial cries of " Hear, hear," from the 5, 5 4. 9 bench es .) And, if by any chance in taking_ theour jPartial an d independent view of the interests of you come to a conclusion different to that a t 11c " we arrive, we will ask you then to retrace you r ste p s. ...... • (Cheers and " Hear " from the same quarters . ) You glut,affirm in short, what you deny, and den y what ye,, M arn rai and exhibit yourself to the co untr y as a de a'ad and disgraced body of men."—(Loud cheers and t i l es of "H ear. " ) Th at i s the proposition of the Rig ht stel l3 n . _ net Baron e t, and that is the propo sition to whieli I h er t prepared to agree.—(Hear , hear . ) I cannot, I la ve, be counted one of those who have been the ceeral supporters of the present Government.— . ati g h ter.) lam not one of those 'who enjoy that th otin ction—(Renewed laughter)—and it is not likely • 4 : 1 1 t. I shall be compelled to change my course on this sh,J a at• It is for those who have been the supporters of th e Government to consider whether , on a n y sub j ect, Yar e prepared to surrender their w ill to the dictation the Bight Hon. Baronet. And be it remembered, tt. is not any direct or long cherished principles tion f el !hey are called upon to sanction—not in confirma . the, oi I those pri nc ipl e s upon which they acted when ;but Placed him in office, and supplanted hi s pr edecessors, - -s• . .I,Ftnetples the reverse of these.—(Hear, %Wight lion. Gentleman now showed the m how the y 44444911 thwie doctrines to which they 111404 themselves on the hustings, and join the adviscates of free trade—(Hear, hear)—and the sustainment of the Right Hon. Gentleman in office was thought by them a sufficient excuse for this desertion. But they were now called upon not only to abandon those principles upon which they formerly acted, but the most recent convictions of their own mind. I repeat, there never were harder terms imposed on any supporters than those which the Right Hon. Gentleman imposed on his. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that the proposition of the lion. Member was the effect of political combination of some of their own supporters - , and of others opposed to him. The Noble Lord then explained, in order to show that there was no preconcerted plan between him self and the Right Hon. Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade ; in fact, seeing Mr. Miles's motion was quite accidental, his Right Honourable Friend, as soon as he heard the nature of the motion which Mr. Miles had originally made, and which he subsequently altered, announced his determination not to support that motion, but at the same time stated the nature of the proposition which he (Mr. Labouehere) could support, and if the Hon. Member framed his mo tion so as to obtain that support, it surely could not be called combination. Ido not see (said the Noble Lord) how the Right lion. Gentleman at the head of the Go vernment can, after the open declaration of my Right ' Hon. Friend in this House, term our votes the result of " constructive conspiracy."—(Laughter, and cries o' " Hear, hear.") Hon. Members on this side of the House, remarkable for their advocacy of free trade prin ciples, voted for the Government. If there has been any combination or conspiracy it is surely among the ordi nary supporters of Government.—(Hear, hear.) I think those Hon. Members on this side of the House who voted with the Government will find it difficult to reconcile their objections against a duty of 345. and 245., and their support of a duty of 63s.—(Hear, hear, and laugh ter.) Perhaps they think the Right Hon. Gentleman after all the most effectual promoter of free trade prin ciples. Well, now with respect to the former part of the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, I do not think it is m cessary to advert in this debate. Ido not mean to enter into the question which was so fully dis cussed on my proposition with respect to the duty on free-labour and slave-grown sugar. With respect to the income-tax I do not wish to follow the Right Hon. Gentleman at any length. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that the reduction of the interest on the Three-and-a-Half per Cents. was one great ob jection to the re-imposition of the income-tax. But this reduction was decided on in March, and we need not have waited until after Easter for the consideration of these subjects. The Right Hon. • Baronet says that a great many legislative measures have been passed. No doubt there was the Bank Charter, a most important measure, but we had also several other measures of le gislation which were not of so much importance. I will take, for instance, the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, the Irish Registration Bill, and other Bills, which the year 1845 would have been quite soon enough to have sub mitted to the consideration of the House. I think the Right Hon. Gentleman might fairly have said, " Here are great questions relative to finance—we have reduced the interest on the Three-and-a-Half per Cents., and we have now to bring before you questions of commercial policy, and the question of the continuance of the in come-tax." I think that the House in that case would have felt that it was desirable to turn all their attention to those great subjects. I should have distinctly stated that any loss to the revenue would be met bettor in three years than it could be met in two years, and I should have proposed the continuance of the income-tax from the next year. Now, the Right Hon. Gentleman talked much about the disadvantage of making a prospective reduction in November, but I cannot understand either from him or from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, how that proposition, which is so beneficial with respect to foreign free-labour sugar, can be so very injurious to colonial sugar.—(Cheers.) But that, in many respects, it is injurious, I am quite ready to admit. But the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the other night, in arguing that question, and putting the case of colonial sugar, said, " Nobody will be ready to buy because of the pro posed reduction ;" but when he came to his own propo sition, he said " Everybody will be ready to sell because they will be glad to get rid of an article on which there will be a reduction in November." It, therefore, as I understood him, must be beneficial in one sense, and not in another.—(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, with respect to the important part of this subject, the reduction to 345., I own that it does seem to me, generally speaking, to be a fair proposition that the raw article should not be sub jected-- supposing both are the subjects of duty—that the raw article should not be subjected to competition with the manufactured article at exactly the same duty. It, therefore, does not seem to me to be a fair principle( n which the Hull. Gentleman is proceeding. But, on the other hand, if that proposition should be adopted, I think that 'IRE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY _EVENING. JUNE 1 1844. pose the same rate of duty on foreign sugar, the produce of tree labour, as part of the proposition, and whether he intended to propose any variation on the proposition that was submitted on Friday night ? Sir R. PEEL said that in case the House should affirm the 245. duty, he would propose the same amount of duty on foreign free-labour sugar as was originally proposed. Mr. B. COCHRANE said, that on Friday night last, he considered it his duty to support her Majesty's government in preference to the motion of his Hon. Friend near him. Her Majesty's Government were then defeated by 20; and he understood that it was now their intention to put the same question unaltered again to the House. He had objected to the course taken by her Majesty's. Governmenton the Factories Bill. He considered that something more was due to the opinion of that House when once given than that it should have the same question submitted for its consideration again. He thought, therefore, that this question had ceased to be one with respect to the amount of duty—he - considered it was now a question of the independence of that House.—( Loud cheers.) It was a question involving the privileges of the House ; he would say more, it was a question involving the personal honour of every Member who forrried part of the majority of Friday night. Under these circumstances, painful as it was to him, and taking that extended view of the case, /Te could not support her Majesty's Government by voting with them that night.—(Laughter and Cheers.) After a few words from Mr. COLLET T which were totally inaudible in the Gallery. Mr. KEMBLE said, he was one of those who generally supported her Majesty's Government, but he yet felt that there were questions on which he could not go the full length of supporting the Government ; and he, therefore, felt he ought to justify the vote he was about to give on the present occasion. He was as independent of the dictation of the Government as any individual either in or out of that House. On two occasions, two important occasions, he had :voted against her Majesty's Government. He alluded to the factory question, and, not withstanding the declarations of the Prime Minister on that occasion, he had still felt it his duty, as an independent Mem ber of that House, to support the line of conduct which he had adopted on those two former occasions; and the third time he again voted in the same way. On the present occasion he was not about to alter the vote he had given before on the ques tion before the House. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had supported a principle which he believed to be right, and he stood forward as the advocate of consistency against her Majesty's Government, and in support of that consistency he turned round and declared that he would re verse the vote which he had given for the benefit of the coun try.—( Loud cries of " No, no.") If he had misunderstood the Hon. Gentleman he begged his pardon. He (Mr. Kem ble ) felt it necessary to maintain his consistency. With respect to this question of the amount of duty, he had no hesitation in saying that he was opposed to the proposition of the Govern ment, and was equally opposed to the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol, and on that account he had abstained from voting on Friday night, because he could not satisfy him self by voting either one way or the other. The question on which they were about to vote was, whether the duty ou co lonial sugar should be reduced to 20s. or not. He considered that the question was of too great importance to be entertained in that incidental way on that occasion. He said that the question was one of large importance, and he had no hesita tion in declaring it as his opinion, that if the duty on colonial sugar were to be reduced, a reduction of 4s. per cwt. was not that which would give substantial benefit to West India interests, or be beneficial to the public. He had not had the opportunity of hearing the discussion on a former occasion, nor had ho heard the Right Hon. Baronet that even ing, but he considered that this was a matter of great impost ance with respect to the finances of the country. The incomc tax was about to terminate, and it was of the highest import ance that the financial situation of the country should be looked boldly in the face, and, therefore, this question of the sugar duties required their most serious attention. For these reasons, he should vote against the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol. Mr. WARBURTON said the character which the Hon. Member for Bristol had given of his amendment, contrasted with the proposition of the Government namely, that it afforded more protection to the West India interest, had induced him to vote against it. That was the reason that induced his vote on Friday last, and, therefore, unless the Honourable Member for Bristol was prepared to do away with the 4s. discriminating duty and leave the duty as 20s. on colonial and 30s. on foreign, he must repeat the vote he had given upon the former occasion. Sir H. DOUGLAS begged to state it was his decided in tention, under present circumstances, to vote with the Govern. ment.—( Shouts of laughter.) Mr. LABOUCHERE said there was not only the impor tant question of the sugar duties before them, but there was this still more important question, how the course it was pro posed to adopt would affect the character of that House ? (Loud cheers.) He was fully aware that circumstances might arise when—a Minister having committed an error or the House acting from misinformation—it would be justifiable to rescind a vote which had been come to. He had himself sup ported Lord Althorp when the vote upon the malt-tax had been reversed, and he had supported the Bight Hon. Gentleman ( Sir R. Peel) in his conduct upon the Factories Bill, and had approved the course the Government had taken. Those were both great and important questions, justified by the cir cumstances in which they stood ; but his fears now were upon the grounds on which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) had himself put the present question. In the very unimpor tance which had been made of the question, his (Mr. La bouchere's) anxiety rested; and further, the language in which the Right Hon. Gentleman had addressed that House, was language which no Minister ought to address to it—lan guage which Mr. Pitt, even in the plenitude of his power, would never have ventured to use.—(Loud cheers.) With regard to the question itself, he had stated his reasons for his vote so fully on Friday last, that be did not feel it necessary to enter again upon the subject. As he said then, so he thought now, that whilst the measure was far from perfect, still, in the amendment of the Hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Miles), he found so much more benefit to the con sumer than in the proposition of the Government, that he must give it his support. He begged, however, to give notice that, at the proper time, if no one else proposed it, he should him self submit a proposition to the House, to put an extra duty of 4s. on the highly-refined sugars from our own colonies—that is, to make the duty on the fine clayed colonial 245., and on the the fine clayed foreign 345. He thought if they applied the discriminating principle to the foreign sugars, it would be better to apply . it as well to the colonial. With regard to the charge of conspiracy brought against him and his friends on that side of the House, he wholly repudiated as inapplicable to any par ties, and least of all to himself. When the notice on the subject of the sugar duties was given he was in Somersetshire, and on his return to town he found that he had actually misunderstood the purport of the amendment. The first time he heard of the intention of his friends to support the amendment was in that House, and if there was a conspiracy, all he could say was, that it must have originated across the table of that House.— ( Heir, hear.) He should regret, indeed, if the House re versed that night the decision it had arrived at on Friday last, because he was sure that such a step would have a tendency to lower that House in the eyes of the people. He hoped the time never would come when any majority of that House would consent to support a Government upon such terms and in such a manner as the Right Hon. Gentleman had considered it essential to the safety of his Ministry to attempt to force upon them. Sir R. PEEL, in explanation, said the word conspiracy had not been used by him. All that he had said was to express his opinion that what had happened on Friday night had, to repeat his words, " taken place with previous concert." Mr. D'ISRAELI said he was not present at the debate on Friday night, and therefore he was not acquainted with the movements of those conspirators, who now were merely called combinators—( A laugh)—and therefore he was naturally some what astonished at that which had transpired. But he was more astonished to hear that they were called, at four o'clock, to witness the painful sight of the resignation of a Ministry ; and, under present circumstances, and seeing how matters stood, lie could not refrain from congratulating the House that, instead of witnessing the resignation of the Administration, they had only witnessed the Prime Minister move an amend ment.—( Laughter.) There certainly were to be found cases analogous to the present one. There was the case of the malt tax, some years ago, when Lord Althorp induced the then Hon. Members to rescind a vote they had deliberately come to. He (Mr. D'lsraeli) was not in the House at that time, though he had read and heard a good deal of the proceedings which then took place, and he knew that step was alluded to by eminent men of both parties in the country as most extraordinary, and only to be excused by the inexperience of a House that had but then been reconstructed. Well, several years elapsed be fore a similar circumstance occurred, and that was very re cently, when they had been called upon to rescind a vote which had vastly interested the great body of the nation, and the House had submitted to that process which men of great ex perience some years before had accepted with great reluctance, and as the result of an overbearing necessity.—( Hear, hear.) And now only a month had passed—one month only—and that House was again to be brought before the country—( Cheers) —under circumstances, he could not help saying, that no man, whatever aide of the House he might belong to, could only de scribe as such as must have an inevitable tendency to degrade the charaeter of them all in the eyes of the people --(Loud cheers.) It was possible that Ministers might retain power by this stern process—(Hear, hear)—but he for one certainly mistook the character of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) if he supposed he could much value power retained by means so extraordinary, if not unconstitutional.—( Great cheer ing.) He thought the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) should treat with a little more delicacy his supporters under these circumstances—(Cheers)—and, for his part, he thought they had a tight to hope that he should not unnecessarily drag them through the mire. _( Loud laughter and cheers.) They were dragged through in May—(Laughter)—they were again to be dragged through in June ( Loud laughter) or, at all events, the Right Honourable Gentleman said to them, unless you rescind the vote you came to, I will not continue to bear the responsibility of office.—( Hear, hear. ) He did think they had a right to expect from the Right lion. Gentleman, after all that had happened, that he should place them in a position as little degrading as possible.— (Laughter and cheers.) In his (Mr. D'lsraeli a) opinion, those who managed the details of these affairs should frame a sort of tariff of Parliamentary disgrace—(Cheers)—that might tell them at what price came the prospect of the shades of private life.—( Loud laughter and cheers.) It would say to them "thus far may you go and no farther ;" we have guaged your inde pendence—go no further or you will have to submit to the pub lic disgrace of recanting your own votes, or we must submit to retire into private life. —(Roars of laughter.) Why, in the year 1841, when the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) op posed the motion of the Noble Lord (John Russell), he said he had never entered into, and never would enter into the slavery cry, and he never would enter into that of cheap sugar. only two years had elapsed, and they now found what he said and did, not only about slavery, but about cheap sugar—( Loud cheers)—and seeing that, he chooses to stake his ministry upon this conduct, and expects his supporters to lose their characters in order to sustain his ministry.—( Loud cheers.) He detests slavery in every place except on the benches behind him.— ( Great cheering.) He repeated they must recollect this was the second time this session they had been called upon to res• chid their votes, and therefore it would be better for the honour of that House—better for the honour of the Prime Minister himself—that that system should terminate.—(Loud cheer ing.) The Right Honourable Gentleman himself, from his undoubted talents, deserved a better fate than that he should constantly be replaced and continued in power by menacing his friends and cringing to his opponents.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman denied calling them conspirators; he merely charged them as conspirators, which reminded him (Mr. D'lsraeli) of the defence of Fieschi, who denied that he bad entered into a conspiracy, but acknowledged being party to a combination.—( A laugh.) He obtained power through the votes of the men whom he tried to coerce—he offered to them no distinct policy of his own—(Cheers) —nothing that they could count upon—no distinctive line whatever—( Hear, hear) and yet he started amazed if any one dared to oppose any new doctrine which he himself might think fit to take up.- -( Great cheering.) He thought that his system—and he was at least learned in Parliamentary ways—was the right one to adopt ; but he ( Mr. D'lsraeli), for one, believed that it could not tend to the honour of the House, or the honour—which he respected—of the Right Hon. Gentleman himself—( Hes r, hear)—and he might be excused, if, on this, as on a former occasion, he registered his vote for the same purpose, and in the same spirit, and if he did not follow the example of the Gallant Officer ( Sir H. Douglas), but endeavour to show that, at least, as he had given it not without thought, so he should not change it without purpose.—(Hear, hear.) And whatever might be the consequences so mysteriously referred to by the Right Hon. Gentleman, certainly he, for one, if he should have to appear again on the hustings, should not think lie had a lees if there is a distinction with regard to foreign sugar, we ought to make a similar distinction with regard to colo nial sugar. It appears that such was the opinion of Mr. Deacon Hume, and that appears. from a letter in the newspapers, to be the opinion of Mr. Gladstone. 'He proposed a duty of ss. additional in case of colonial sugar, and 7s. 6d. in regard to foreign sugar. I think we have the practice in the United States and Holland in favour of that example. I should be glad to hear from the Hon. Member for Bristol, when he comes to that part of the proposition, why it is that he thinks it absolutely necessary to entertain a duty of 345. ; or what objection he can have to a 245. -dot) in the case of colonial sugar? But, Sir, this is matter of detail in regard to the Hon. Member's proposition. What the Right Hon. Gentleman now proposes is, that the House should agree to that which they negatived the other night—that they should positively affirm that as expedient which they then declared to be inexpedient. The Right Hon. Gentleman, as I understand him, does this as much on political as on commercial grounds.— (Cheers.) He declares that it is necessary to him to have that confidence from his supporters that they will be ready to agree with him in this proposition. I should say, as I commenced by observing, that it would be a melancholy proof of their own subserviency.—(Cheers.) That question has been fully argued, and in that full argument, and by the number of twenty in a full House, the Committee decided against the proposition of the Government. Again I say, that I see no reason for that majority to change their votes. But let me tell those who voted the other night, that if they now agree to the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Righ Hon. Gentleman will treat them with the same disre gard in future—will treat their opinion in the same overbearing manner.—(Cheers.) Let them depend on it, that however they may consider themselves as a ma jority of the House of Commons, that their opinions and their views will hereafter have no weight ; that the Right Hon. Gentleman being once assured of their sup port, would be enabled to make propositions which they might think most injurious to the country ,• but having given this proof of subserviency, they will find them selves unable to recover their independence, which will be gone at once and for ever.—(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst loud cheering.) Mr. MILES—I trust, Sir, that I shall not be trespassing on the time of the Committee if I now make a few observa tions. The Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Go vernment told us that he thought some conspiracy had been entered into with the other side of the House. That, Sir, 1 beg to deny in Coto.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord, the Mem ber for the City of London, has correctly stated the reasons why I altered the motion of which I originally gave notice. It is quite true that I gave notice for a reduction of the duty from 245. to 20s. in the first instance on sugar, the produce of our colonial possessions. In the first debate which took place on that question the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, asked me what hope I could have of perma nently maintaining that duty. In that same debate the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Taunton, said, as I under. stood him, that he would support a reduction of duty to 20s. and 305., and he also seemed to say, from what I could gather from him, that he would be inclined to support a dis criminating duty. I also recollect that the Noble Lord, in 1841, proposed a discriminating duty of 6s. I hope that her Majesty's Government will give the West India body credit for having gone to them on several occasions, and told them that they considered that this measure, in the present state of the West Indian colonies, would amount to almost ruin, and that it ought not to be proposed until after a large immigration of Coollie labour had taken place. But, Sir, her Majesty's Government refused to listen to them, and it was for that reason that they framed this measure, which was calculated to give them a larger amount of protection than the proposition of her Majesty's Government. I confess, Sir, that I heard with regret the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman that he intends to persevere in his Bill. I think, Sir, that it would only have been paying a due deference to the majority of this House for him to have postponed his measure until another se,sion ; he would not then have placed a large body of his supporters on this side of the House in the painful position of either supporting him or withdrawing altogether from the House. I have undertaken t.e responsibility of advocating the cause of the West Indian body, and I do not now intend to shrink from that duty.—( Loud cheers.) I can only say, in addition, that I will certainly take the sense of the House on the amendment which I have proposed.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord opposite put a question to me about the discrimi nating duty ; I can answer that I think tke whole of the West India body would have no objection to a discriminating duty of 4s. on colonial sugar, but there is a very great opposition to it from the East India hody.—( Hear, hear. ) I can safely say that I myself have no objection to a discriminating duty of 4s. I now, Sir, move the amendment which has been placed in your hand. Sir R. PEEL moved that the blank be filled ap with 245. The CHAIRMAN ( Mr. G re ene) said he apprehended that the course they would have to pursue would be, to make amendments in the proposition as they went on, and that the proposition should then be put as amended. Lord HO WICK wished to know whether, after they had discussed the question of amount of duty, they could make any alteration as to the time at which the duty should commence ? The CHAIRMAN apprehended that they must amend the proposition as they went on. Mr. BERNAL said, there were two very important points for their consideration. He entertained very considerable doubt himself as to whether in a Committee of a fiscal nature, the Committee having determined that the duty of 245. should not be imposed, they could reconsider the imposition of the same duty.—(Hear, hear.) He had not examined any precedents on the subject, but it was his opinion, that they could not reconsider that question. That Commitee was an ad journment of a former Committee on the B 11. In the course o f the former Committee, they rejected the propo sition originally introduced, that 245. duty should be imposed on a cwt. of sugar. That was rejected, and when the motion of his lion. Friend was brought forward to reduce that annual charge on the public, it was held that they could re-open the question inau e T of th e The se c 5 O -I n s d . dwuat eras t h a t . the w 2 k o s s one being the objection he had lower duty to t ought to be fi rst put the hi s C h o e m r m d i u tt t t y e e o , t ai 2 id 4s t . ha s t ho if ul t d hat b s e ho su a b ld . N was understood to say, that the question r he e de j . e CHAIRMAN t uc e the n ßr ear.) T bm o e f i a tt 24l. duty could be reconsidered as part of the proposition. The Hqo. Gentlema n was right in saying that the lower d u ty must be put first, and the question would therefore s irR . PEELbe, that apprehendedll. snfl that a s part of the the duty of proposition. three guineas had been negatived by . the Committee, it was competent for thorn to propose the 245. duty as a substitute. After a few words from Lord J. Russell, Mr. Hume, and Mr. Roebuck, which were inaudible in the gallery, Sir G. GREY said that the Right Hon. Gentleman, by the present amendment, proposed to adopt pro tanto the words which were negatived the other night. He (Sir G. G.) wished to ask, before they came to a vote, whether, supposing this . vote to kg carried : the Rijht Hon , Gentleman int ended to pro. claim on the confidence of those who sent hi is to that House, because he had not, within forty-eight hours, eitlng,ed,his vote, from being menaced by a Prime Minister.—(Cheers. Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS begged to say that he had changed neither his opinion nor his vote. He had disapproved of the propoaition of the Government and had voted against it ; ! he disapproved also of the proposal of tha Member for Bristol, and should oppose that also. Lord SANDON said he thought the proposal, of the Hon. Member for Bristol was a good one, and he should continue to approve it, and he regretted that the Government did not adopt it, or something of the kind. He had also heard with regret what had-fallen front his Noble Friend, not so much in connection with the present question, as front the principle he seemed to lay down, which seemed to ke this—that on no oc casion was the Government to be left in a m nority that it would not be considered as a vote of want of confidence. If the minority were small, still it showed a want of confidence ; if it were large, the inference would be still stronger ; and whatever the subject might be, whether sugar, or a bishopric of North Wales, whenever there was a combination of parties he was afraid the decree had gone fsrth that a vote of a majority of that House, whenever it did not agree with the opinion of the Government, was to be considered a vote of want of confidence. This was a scheme of Government which had never been tried by any party, Whig, Tory, or Radical, and in a country like this would not only render this but every other Government impossible. He the more regretted this, ns he should, io consequence of it, he debarred as an independent Member from lending it that efficient support which he could wish. With regard to the particular question at issue, he believed that the proposition of, the Hon. Member was an improvement on that of the Govern ment. He begged the West India interest not to exaggerate the crisis. He believed the natural advattages of the West Indian colonies were so great, both with respect to climate and soil, that when the system of free labour should be developed, they would have no reason to despond. Mr. SHEIL wished to say a few words on this subject. He should not follow the example of Hon. Gentlemen on the other side, who had spoken more unkindly of her Majesty's Govern ment than he was disposed to do. As for the Noble Lord who had just sat down, he seemed to be one of those who, in the words of Pope, could would be able to maintain the discriminating duty of 635. They had always looked for a reduction of - the duty on foreign sugar. but at the same time they expected some beneAt for themselves. --„( Hear, hear.) Without going at all into the question, how the r eduction in price was to be dis tributed, no doubt existed in his mind that both the planter and the consu ner would be benefited by the proposed reduction of 4s. The condition of the West India planter was precisely the same a 3 that of the English agriculturist. These were his reasons for supporting the proposition of his Hon. Relative. He was sorry that the question had been taken up as it had been by the Government o, the country.--(Hear.) He thought that when it had been int i mated that the sugar duties were next year to be put upon a different basis, they would have come forward and stated what their proposition was, in order that the House mig:it ei her assent to, or dissent from their proposal. Bat, instead of this, they had determined, notwithstanding an adverse decision, to force upon the House their own proposition. lie could assure the Government that those high Conservative principles which they advocated were his own ; but, at the same time, he must hive the power of freely and independently ex excising his vote ; and he conceived that he raised his party higher by exercising that poser when, in questions of detail, he differed from the Government, than by obsequiously follow ing every movement of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that the majority which had supported his Hon. Rela tion the other tight would not forget the duty they owed to themselves, to the country, and to those who had sent them there ; but that whatever might be the effect, they would again record their opinions in favour of the West Indian agricul turisti,..—( Cheers ) Mr. B. ESC° IT said he had been so severely attacked, that he trus,ed the House would allow him to say one word. He called upon his Hon. niend, in justice to him and to his o.vn character, after charging him (Mr. Escott) with renounc ing his former opinions and contradicting his former principles, to po'nt oat one single instance in which le had avowed prin ciples or opinions incansistent with those which he had avowed that evening.—( Hear, hear. ) Mr. W. MILES said, of course, he could only speak on the authority of the newspapers. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Escott) however, had oppo ed his /lon. Friend opposite (Mr. Sand ford) a; a compete protectionist. —( Hear, hear. ) Mr. B. ESCO CT—No, no.--( Laughter. ) Lent HOW ECK said he certainly did think that the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had very sufficiently answered the clatre,e made against him. He had, however, heard with great satisfaction the statement of the Hon. Member (Mr. B. Es cott) that the people of England were not in favour of anti quated monopolies; and he trusted that when they came to discu=s the corn-laws they would have before them in his speech and vote the undoubted proof of his sincerity.—(Laughter. ) but his object in rising was to say that it really did appear to him most extraoriinary that the House should be called upon to rescind its former vote upon the grounds which had been stated that evening.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that those gentlemen who had heard the statement of the Right Hen. Baronet and the speech of the Hon. Mem ber for Bristol mast be satisfied that the arguments of the Right Hon Baronet were not such as could warrant the House in retracing the step which they had taken.—(Cheers.) He thought that the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol was a just and fair one.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that everything which could be done to assist the West India inte rest in their difficulties ought to be done. What he understood from the measure ot the Government was, that the West Indies should have a protection of IN. against the produce of free labour. The Member for Bristol had not objected to re duce the duty upon foreign sugar, but he wished at the same time that colonial produce should also be favoured by a reduc tion of duty, which would have the effect of cheapening the article, enlarging the market, and benefiting at once the West India interest and the consumer. He thought that•vvas a most just proposition.—(Cheers.) His Right Hon. Friend near him had made a proposition which would remove any difficulty which might eeist in coming to such an arrangement. He was confirmed in that opinion by what had fallen from the President of the Board of Trade, on the subject of the dif ferent duties to be imposed upon different qualities of sugar.— ( Hear, hear.) There had been but one objection argued by the Right lion. Baronet, which seemed to him to have con siderable force—that was, that the effect of the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol would be to throw an undue advantage into the bands of those traders who had stock, and of the retailers, who would gain at the expense of the public. However, that objection might be met by bringing the altera tion into effect at an earlier period, say the sth of July.— (Chieers.) As to the distinction between slave-grown sugar and the produce of free labour, it was only the Government that set any value on that argument.—( Hear, hear.) But then the Right Hon. baronet said that they were bound by the treaty to place Brazil upon the same footing with the most fa voured nation. Why then should the Brazilians not be placed upon the same footing as the most favoured nation, and give them what aiventage they might obtain in three or four months, until the treaty could be settled? That could not encourage slavery in Brazil. He hoped the House was not going to re scind the decidon to which it had come. He had heard with astonishment the statement of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, that the object of Bills being read several times was to give the House au op portunity of reconsidering its opinions, and of preventing surprise. It was true the object of the forms was to prevent surprise, but it certainly was not to institute or keep up a cus tom of rescinding deliberate votes, at the will of the Ministry. The Right Hon. Gentleman had told the House three or four times, that if they did not rescind their votes, he should regard it as a withdrawal of confidence.—(Cheers.) This had oc curred on the Factories Bill, the Welsh Bishoprics, and on a financial measure. lie thought if such obsequiousness to the Government was expected from the House, it would save much trouble if, at the beginning of the session, the House should pass a vote of unlimited confidence in the Ministry.—(Cheers, and laughter.) But it was not in the power of the Right Hon. baronet to resign upon this question. It was impossible for them to go to the country upon a question of a differential duty of as. per cwt. But the Right Hon. Baronet had in formed the lieuse that there was something behind, that there were other a d less ostensible differences between him and his ordinary supp rters.—(Cheers. ) He (Lord Howick) believed that this was the case. Ile believed that the Government was supported by gentlemen who did not agree with the Govern ment on the important question of trade and finance.— , ( Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) That was a state of things Sit creditable to the Government, or to the House. Teo or three times Ministers were on the point of resigning ritliee, and were only enabled to retain their places by compelling their supporters to rescind their votes. The circum stance I rim which that had arisen had been stated by his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell). When the Right Hon. Baronet was out of office, an impression prevailed in the House and in the country, that he entertained opinions on trade and finance very different from those upon which he had acted since he came into power.—( Cheers.) The Government was now under the pressure of enlightened opinion out of doors, with which the convictions of their own minds agreed, and they held the opinions of free trade as much as he did. There was a feeling of disappointment on the minds of those who supported the Govererneet, and Hon. Gentleman and Noble Dukes were heard to declare that they were not satisfied with Ministers, but were mere dissatisfied with those who might take their places —( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Government had not the support of those who advocated protection for do mestic interests, and on the other hand those who were opposed to mischievous impositions, such as the present corn-laws were, could place no confidence in them. The consequence was, that doubt and uncertainty to a most pernicious extent egitateil every interest in the country, agricultural, ma nufacturing, and commercial. The only way to put an end to such a state of things was by the Government adopting de cidedly and boldly either the principle of free trade, or express ing a bona .fide determination to uphold things as they were.— ( Great cheering.) They claimed to have a majority of the House and the country, and if they honestly held that opinion there w.s nothing to prevent their adopting one decided course. If the contest was to end in removing restrictions, the sooner, surely. it was put an end to the better. He did not, from a'l had he seen, anticipate at present any change in the manner in witch the affairs of the country would be con ducted. There was a rottenness in the present state of things, and the moment the country was subject to tempests sueh a state of things must lie done away with. Was it not better then ho endeavour to do away with them when the country was in a state of peace ? He was persuaded that the continu ance of this sort of anarchy—for he could call it nothing else— would be attended with the worst results to the best interests of the country.—( Hear, hear. ) Lord Stanley, Lord Clive, and Mr. Borthwick, rose together, amid loud cries of " Divide, divide." Lord Stanley caught the Chairman's eye, but gave way to Lord CLI%'E, who stated it to be his intention to vote that evening in the same way he did on Friday night.—( Hear.) Lord :STANLEY then addressed the House. The Noble Lord on the other side of the House had appealed to the pride and sense of honour in the House whether it would re .scind a vote it had formerly given. The Noble Lord had done injustice to his Right Hun. Friend in supposing that in his observations he had held out any threat. What he had stated was, that standing in the situation of the Government, it vres their bounden duty to state to the House the position in which they felt themselves placed by the vote of the House, though not exclusively on Friday. He stated that they thought it was due to the position of the Government to consider the situation in which they stood, not on this question atone, but other measures that had been brought for ward in the pi esent session ; and his Right Hon. Friend at the same time stated that if they did net possess the confidence and support ef the House, it was idle for them to attempt to carry on the affairs of the country. The Noble Lord had drawn a picture of this country, which, if true, was a conclusive argu ment for their declaring that if they had not the confidence of either party, it was incompetent for them to carry on the busi ness ot the country. The Noble Lord had also said that the present Government had created a very different notion as to the views they entertained on commercial subjects when out of office to what they had done whilst in. Now, where, he would ask, had they creat ed that sentiment? Certainly not in the mind of the Noble Lord opposite, for he had said it had not come upon him unt xpectedly. The Noble Lord Wad said, you admit the principles of free trade, why not carry them out? Why,had they not been taunted by the other side with only being free traders in the abstract ?—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord had then said that it was admitted by all that we ought to buy in the cheapest and sell in the dearest market. He admitted that doctrine in the abstract, but in the application of it they would not injure those great interests that had risen up in this country and the colonies. The Noble Lord then stated that the Government were supported by a body of men who only supported them because they disliked their opponents' views. That was the condition of every Govern ment ; but he believed that the Noble Lord was entirely mis taken in taking the view he had done of the great Conserva tive party in this country. He believed that the whole of that body were perfectly satisfied with the cautious course pursued by his Right Hon. Friend, and that the agriculturists were net likely to be deluded by the friendship of the Noble Lord to ruin themselves by advocating the principles of free trade. The Noble Lord had stated it was time the present state of thines should be done away with, and which might be done in two ways ; but he (Lord Stanley) did not be lieve that either of the ways pointed out by the No ble Lord would attain the ends he had in view. What ever might be the fate of the Government, so long as they were supported by a majority of that House, they would con tinue to maireain that steady, cautious course—(Laughter and ironical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—they would advocate temperate and well-considered measure of im provement which would be best calculated for the rational pro tection of the main and leading interests of the country, and for the development of our national resources. But if the Noble Lord could not succeed by an appeal to the passions and pride of Hon. Members on that side of the House, if he could not foment any dissensions, or produce any divisions in the Cathervative ranks—if the agricultural Members would not be attracted, he thought he could succeed in placing the advo cates of the West Indian interests under his guidance and pro sec ion.—( Hear, hear.) The Government, he candidly ad mitted, called upon the House to reconsider its vote of F rida y night, and the plan proposed by the Government. He ad mitred that the measure of the Government had been con sknined by a majority of ten.—(" No, twenty.") Yes , tw ent y .— to the table with consent Laughter.) combination Members on that side of the House. I.ord JOIIN RUSSELL—There was no combination. lie would b n e o t t w g e o m into the any question o f a npdre Hon.vlous Lo l.. „ o l r a d od— STANLEY—What no concert b etween the a Lord JOHN RUSSELL (advan (a marked emphasis)—The Noble Lord is entirel y m i s taken. L he o d STANLEY f awould p revi o u s not, as h House to deliberate and comp are the p ro j ect o f the Govern ment with that of the honourable Member for Bristol. I admit that the West India inte r est are entitled to protection in concert; a had into - "condescend Sometimes to call the Minister his friend !" He could assure the Right Hon. B trooet that he was under a mistake if he supposed that there had been any combination or conspiracy on this question. He believed the Right Hon. Gentleman was under an entire misapprehension if he thought there was any premeditated arrangement between his sup porters and those who generally opposed him. '1 his was the question, putting individual considerations aside. The proposition was one for making sugar cheaper. In reference to this discussion, he looked back to the debate on Mr. Huskisson's proposition in 1819. That proposition was agreed to by the Cabinet, and was one for reducing the duty on foreign sugar to 283. Air. Huskisson then argued that, though the Chancellor of the Exchequer anticipated from it a decrease of the revenue to the amount of 500,0301. annually, yet the reduction of price would benefit the public more than t would injure the revenue. Now, if the doctrine of Mr. Huskisson were correct, let them try the two propositions be fore the House by the principle thus laid down, and they must come to the conclusion that a reduction in the price of sugar must be the result of one propo,ition in a far greater degree than of the ether. That being conceded, he thought there ought to be no difference with respect to the choice they ought to come to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER met the ar gument quoted from Mr. Haskisson in the same manner as he had met the argument of the Hon. Member for Taunton, by contending that an increased demand for sugar, consequent on a reduction of price, would immediately throw a great advan tage into the hands of those who alone had the means of at present supplying the market. This would raise the price to the consumers, and he contended that it was ab•olutely neces sary, before making a large reduction in the sugar duties, they should give such notice to those countries producing free labour sugar as to enable them to furnish a larger supply of that necessary article. It had been stated that the course taken by the Government on the present occasion was quite unprece dented, because they called for the revision of a vote to which the House had previously come. They were told that to sub mit to the House a question which had been previously negatived or affirmed, was degrading to it.—( Hear. ) In that case, of what use were the forms of the House which enabled them repeatedly to bring the same ques tions under consideration ? It was admitted that this was done in a very signal manner on the subject of the malt-tax, when the House was called on to rescind its vote not as now during the progress of the Bill. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had indulged in a speech affirming that the Right Hon. Baro• net had not the confieleuce of all who supported hint. He had seldom heard a speech so derogatory to the character of the House—( Hear, hear) —and the Hon. Gentleman should, at all events, be the last to complain, for, from the tenor of his speech it was evident that he had for a long time harboured in his mind the sentiments which he displayed.—Hear, hear.) He should be the last person to complain that the Government abused the confidence reposed in them. The question under consideration was, whether they should take off 4s. from the 245. duty. With regard to that proposition, they thought it would injure the revenue without benefiting the consumer. The estimate of loss to the revenue was pretty much the same as when Mr. Huskiston brought the subject under con sideration. They had been asked what consideration a loss of 500,00 1. was when they had such a large surplus ? Why, the way to contract debts and to have a deficient revenue, was to proceed in such a course. It was on this ground that he should continue to resist the motion of the Hon. Member for Bristol. Mr. P. MAXWELL STEWART said that none of the grounds alleged by the Government in support of their proposition were well founded, in his opinion. He did not agree with the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the es' imates which he made of the sugar which would come in under this pro position. He denied the statement of the Right Honourable Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade with respect to Java. He had it, on the authority of a Java planter, that sugar was produced there under a forced system, which might be considered a description oF mitigated slavery. under which the produce of sugar had increased twenty-five times in the course of ten years. But he did not mean to say that ought to exclude them under this Bill. The Government had, by their propo sition, produced the greatest stagnation in the West India trade. They had now the lowest average price for six years. The price that day was 345. Ids, and the stock in hand was 8,000 tons more than the stock in hand in the corresponding period of last year. It was impossible that the adoption of the motion of the Hon. Member for Bristol could increase the suf fering which had prevailed in consequence of the conduct pur sued by the Government. Persons did not know what to do, because they were doubtful of what would be the result of their deliberations in that House. Was that a fitting way to treat a great colonial interest? But there was more than this. The Right lion. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, told them that they were in a state of transition. He had been an advocate for an alteration of the duties, but the Government had by their conduct treated the colonial interest with insult, not meant perhaps, but certainly real. The ar gument of the Right Hon. B tronet was unworthy of him. He put forward the alterations of the tariff, but the Right Hon. Gentleman had not allowed time to see what the effect of the tariff was, for he had himself altered it in essential points. He denied that the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol would risk the revenue, and that it would benefit the consumer he thought there could be little doubt. His Hon. Friend the Member for :Manchester and other free traders were standing on this occasion between the con sumers and the colonists.—( Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend said he was going to vote fur the Hon. slember for Bristol, but he was enlightened by going to the other side of Temple bar—(A laugh)—and voted with the Government. his Hon. Friend had given an explanation of his conduct, and said that he thought this was a trap. He (Mr. Stewart) was of opinion that his Hon. Friend did not mend matters by his explanation, and he would have been more discreet if he followed the " Trappists"—(A laugh)—and remained silent. He was sure they ought, looking to the interests of the consumer and the colonist, to uphold the vote to which they had come on Friday evening. Several Members here rose to address the House, among whom was Mr. Entwisle, for whom loud cries were made from all parts of the House. Mr. ENTWISLE said it was with the greatest pain that he found himself compelled, at such an early period of his in troduction to that House, to oppose the measure brought for ward by her Majesty's Government, as a supporter of whom he had been sent to represent his constituents ; but it had been in defence of a principle to which he had taken frequent occa sion to announce his adherence, namely, that of affording a f a ir protection to the produce of the labour of all British subjects.—( Hear, hear.) It was en that principle that the contest was fought in which he was lately engaged, and he should not desert that principle now.—( Hear, hear.) They had an admission of the Government that their measure was hardly equivalent to the necessities of the case. It seemed to be agreed on all hands that there was a strong necessity for immigration of labour into the colonies, and that without such immigration it was impossible for the West Indian proprie tors to cope with the foreign grower of sugar. In the state of transition which had been so frequently alluded to, it appeared to him that the protection proposed by the Government must be insufficient before an immigration of labous had taken place, and it was en that ground he conceived that the measure of the Hon. Member for Bristol was proposed, for giving increased protection. Whatever might be the effect upon the revenue, it waa brought on by the proposal of the G svernment them selves. However, having recorded his vote in favour of the Hon. Member's proposition on a previous occasion, he would not further mix himself up with that party epposite, to whose views he was opposed. He would decline on that occasion to register his vote in connection with theirs. Mr. B. ESCOTT said he could not understand how this proposition could be supported both on the ground of increas ing the supply of the people of this country and increasing the protection of the West India proprietors. Ile agreed with much that had been said on the other side, and amongst other things in which he agreed, was the evil of holding one opinion one day and the opposite on another.—(Hear, hear. ) He had heard an Hots. Member opposite (Mr. P. M. Stewart ) in one part of his speech argue fur increased protection, and in another part for an increased supply ; but lie could not at all understand such an argument, nor could he understand how his Hon. Friend the Member for Somersetshire (Mr. W. Miles), or any other Hon. Member in that House, could sup• port the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol on such grounds. Allusion had been made to the possibility of the re signation of Ministers, but he believed the Right Honourable Baronet, the Secretary of State, would strengthen his position in the country if he were to adopt that course.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the people of England were not. attached to these antiquated monopolies which some in that House were inclined to support.—(Opposition cheers.) Although, on the other hand, they were not disposed immediately to abolish all protection to British interests, they wished to go on gradually with the work of amendment, because that was the only way of proceeding safely. He protested against the course pursued by the Hon. Member for Bristol, and supported by so many on that side of the House.—( Hear, hear.) He challenged the Hon. Member for East Somersetshire ( Mr. W. Miles) to prove how the adoption of his Hon. Relative's motion could help the West Indians out of their difficulties.—( Hear, hear.) In con clusion, he begged to say that he could not give his support to the proposition before the House, Lord Howick, Mr. Miles, and several other Members here rose to address the House, amidst loud cries of " Divide, divide," all of whom gave way to Mr. W. MILES, who said that although he himself was not interested in the West India colonies, yet, as his nearest and dearest connections were, he could not give his vote on that oc casion without making one or two observations. When his Hon. Friend the Member for Winchester had so far forgotten his position in the county of Somerset, that when scarcely two or three years had passed, ho could gulp down all the senti ments fur which he contended at two contested elections for the western division of that county, then, indeed, it was not for him to talk about pri nci p le. —(Cheers.) They should not measure their corn by the Winchester bushel.—(Cheers and laughter.) He had b een p e rfectly astoni . hed at the doc trine which the Honourable Gentleman had laid down. whilst taunting with incensistency many of those by whom he as to langua ge which he had used ap peared extraordinary. Ile had asked him how the West Indian and t he consumer could both be benefited was odebde. most Th e at the same time? Now what was the Government propo sition? To reduce the duty on foreign sugar from 635. to 245. ; but they did not realise by one farthing the duty now paid upon West Indian sugar. If his Hon. Friend had only listened to what had fallen from his relative when making his proposi tion, he would have understood the position which they assumed. After the noble sacrifice of twenty milions, the West India proprietors did pet expect that they a double sense—first, on the ground of a differential duty be- feeling by the violent proceedinge of the Anti-Corn.law League, tereen our colonial possessions and foreign countries, supposing he asked whether it was from tr* side of the House that the them to be placed under similar circumstances; and secondly, question was put to the Right Hon. Baronet if he was prepared on the consideration of the difficulty which the West India co- to maintain the corn-laws ? Did not the question come from lonies had to obtain cheap labour. The Government gave a the other side of the House? Did it not pass wholly mire differential duty of 10s. against foreign free grown sugar, and a marked except by his Hon. Friend the Member for Kent, shoe ing high rate of duty against foreign slave grown sugar. The that they (the agriculturists) were satisfied with the declarations amount of protection offered by Government was identical with of the Right Hon. Baronet. Since then the Right Hon. Baronet the protection asked for by Hon. Member for Bristol. It was had brought in a Bill for the abolition of all the duties on weol. not disputed that if the proposition of the Hon. Member for He asked the Right Hon. Baronet in justice to say whether Bristol were carried into operation that the revenue would the agriculturists had opposed that measure ? Had they exhi. suffer very considerably. The reduction of duty would not be- bited any factious opposition to it ? The Noble Lord, the nefit the consumer or the West Indian interest—it would be ul- Member for Tiverton, had said, when any expression timately most injurious to the latter. It had been objected, of confidence was asked from the House the Govern and complaints had been made, that they did not state the whole went could command a majority varying from 90 to 100. project of their plan on the sugar duties ; but they did not, be- Allusion had often been made to the division of Friday night. cause it was a part of the great financial system proposed for He ( Mr. S. O'Brien) would ask the Government to go one the consideration of Parliament next session. But they had in- night further back, and remember the division of Thursday timated to all parties the principles upon which they meant to act last. The question then brought forward was spoken upon by and the degree of protection which they intended to esta- the Noble Lord the Member for London, and against all the. blish. They gave notice that foreign free labour sugar strength of the Opposition they took the high Conservative, would be admitted into competition, after a certain period, and he might say Protestant ground, and refused to injure the with West Indian sugar ; but they should have certain Protestant Irish Church, the majority being 95. If the Right and permanent protection against slave grown sugar. lion. Gentleman compared the vote of Thursday night with the The Government found themselves bound in honour, as they vote of Friday night, he would find who those were who were hold themselves bound in opinion, to maintain these sentiments ready to support hm. He trusted the Right Hon Baronet with respect to this question of protection to the West India would have a long tenure of office ; an d he knew it was an interest. He knew that the Government, in the late division, object of his ambition not only to have a strong Government, had been defeated by an agreement or concert.—(Cries of but to leave it strengthened to those who were to succeed hint. " No, no.") It was rather difficult to select a word that would —(Groans.) But those who supported him would only sup snit.—(Laughter.) At all events, those Members who usually port him on a principle—(Cheers)--and on all questions where supported her Majesty's Government, had not supported them high principles were involved, the party, of wheat he was proud on that occasion. He believed that this measure of the Go- to number himself one—(lronical cheer-)—were ready to vernment would afford an adequate protection to the West stand by him in spite of all taunts and obloquy. India interest ; and he also believed that the West India body Colonel SIBTHORP rose, but the confusion and uprear would find that the measure of the Hon. Member for Bristol which continued while he was addressing the House, made At would be injurious to their interests. He believed that the difficult to catch what he said. He was understood to say measure of the Government, by increasing the demand in this that he was prepared to support her Majesty's Government country, would greatly benefit the producer. He was, however, —( Ironical cheers)—because, having listened to the argumenta free to confess that the Government would not attempt to follow on both sides of this question, he came to the conclusion that the example of the late Government, by retaining office against the motion of the Hon. Member for Bristol would neither the will of the House of Commons, and when all confidence by prove beneficial to the West India interest —( Oh, oh)---nor that House had been withdrawn from them.—( Cheers.) He to the consumer—(Oh, oh)—nor to the revenue.—( Oh, oh.) hoped that they would not be asking too much when they God forbid that the Noble Lord, the Member for North - called for the confidence of Parliament under the circum- Lancashire, should take a lesson from that side of the House.-... stances in which they were placed. He believed, that upon (Groans.) What position would the agriculturists of England investigation those of their supporters who had not voted on be in if the Noble Lord opposite came into power once more? this question with the Government, would feel that the views (Oh, oh.) He was a stay to no Government. (Ironical of the Government were correct en this matter, although on cheers.) But having had ten years' experience of Hon. Gen the first blush, those Hon. Gentlemen might be unable to tlesnen opposite, lie could not have the slightest confidence in reconcile themselves to it. The Government had to state them.—(lronical cheers.) There were some questions is firmly, but with respect, that they would adhere to their pro- which he differed from the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he position; and in doing so, he believed that they were sub- never gave him a more cordial support than he would give oa stantially benefiting the West India interest. the present occasion. —(Groans.) Lord PALMERSTON said, that as the only question the Mr. M. GIBSON rose amidst loud cries of " Divide, House had to determine was the question depending on the divide." He said he should not detain the Committee many motion of the Hon. Member for Bristol, lie should not he minutes. He wished briefly to explain the views he was cote prepared to affirm it. The great objections which he felt to strained to take of the present question. They were told by the measure were the same which he entertained some that this question was simply whether there should be a to the proposal of the Government—that it made duty of 245. or 205., and some might take that view if they a distinction which he thought untenable between thou g ht fit, and there were many plausible reasons for taking sugar the produce of free labour, and sugar the produce of sla- it, but on reflecting he was induced to come to this conclusion, very. He thought the discussion which had taken place on that the question before them was one between the extreme this subject had convinced him that this distinction could not protection party and the Government of the Right Hon. Gen be maintained in practice, for it seemed to have now very tleman, who had brought forward this proposition in order to little approbation from either side of the House. Another diatinish the protection of the West India interest.— ground of objection to the abstract proposal of the Hon. Gen- ( Cries of " Oh, oh.") He might be wrong, but that was tleman was that it was founded upon the principle of protec- the view which he took. The Noble Lord, the Member for tion. He admitted, however, that if any case could justify the London, talked of combinations and concerts, and talked of this existence of protection it was that of the West India islands. as a party question on the Liberal side.—(Hear, hear.) Why, Ile, therefore, was not disposed to oppose that degree of protec- was it anything of the kind? The Noble Lord did not invite tion which this vote proposed on the supposition that them to support some Liberal measure of his own proposition, it would not be permanent. The Government had but he wanted them to co-operate with the most uncompromising declared that unless the vote of Friday night last were of their opponents—(" Oh, ob," and groans)—to defeat a reversed they would cease to retain their office. Hon. measure which was looked on as an improvement by the con. Gentlemen on his (Lord P.'s) side of the House thought this stituency he represented, and by the great trading interest threat could have no effect. But towards their own sup• of the country. He admitted that the measure of the Go. porters, it was a threat which the Government ought not to vernment was not a perfect measure, but it was the only pr,,, have indulged in. —(Cheers.) When a Government had lost ticable reform in the present temper of the House. —(.• Oh, the confidence of Parliament, it was becoming in them to re- oh.") The Right Hon. Baronet was willing to admit foreign tire from an office which they could no longer retain with sugar into competition with the West India interest, but the credit to themselves or with advantage to the public. But had protectionists said that they had no confidence in the Right that principle always actuated Hon. Gentl men opposite? Did Hon. Baronet, and they proposed, in their own defence, to ad they forget the Government of 1835? They were beaten, not mit more foreign sugar than the Right Hon. Baronet. Now, once, twice, or three times, but something like eleven times, he did not believe they had any such object in view.--( Hear, before they determined to take these successive defeats as proofs hear.) He believed they meant to have a larger measure of that they had lost the confidence of Parliament ; and not only protection. They proposed a duty of 145., and the Govern did they stand those numerous defeats, but they were not in a ment proposed a duty of 10s. He would be most happy to vote majority on any one question of importance--(Hear, hear)— with the Noble Lord the Member for London, if he proposed and they said, further, it was not consistent with their duty any broad liberal measure. But this was a question lightly to desert their posts; and, in truth they did not do so between the Government and the West India interest. till proof after proof was given that they had no hold whatever It had been stated by the Noble Lord the Member for the on the confidence of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Another City of London, that when he (Mr. M. Gibson) asserted in doctrine, however, was advanced now. On the Fac- that House, the other night, that the 345. duty on what was; tories Bill, when a vote, adverse to their opinion, was called white clayed sugar would apply to the large proportion given by the House, Ministers came down and said of foreign sugar available under the proposal of the Hen. Gent. they would not be responsible for the conduct of affairs unless tleman, he was not correct in that assertion. Of course he that vote was reversed. The vote was reversed and much loss could make no such assertion founded on his own knowledge, of character they sustained thereby.—(Hear, hear.) And but he had made the assertion on the best authority ; and he what were they told now ? Why, that this is not a question of would take the liberty of readin a letter or two in his own importance, and yet that they. would not remain in office unless justification .—( Cries of" Oh, oh,") If he were not permitted to the House reversed the decision it had arrived at. Why what do this, he should move to reportprogress.—( Hear.) (The Hon. did this come to? That this House was a mere cipher, called and Learned Member then read a letter from Mr. Peter Marti together for the sole purpose of registering the edicts of the neau, a gentleman connected with the sugar trade, stating that Government.—( Loud cheers.) If the difference between the the effect of Mr. Miles's motion would be to entail an addi. Government and its supporters was of importance, then those tional protective duty of 4s. on a very large proportion of the supporters were to be affronted by being required to reverse foreign free-labour sugar.) The leading men in the City, of Con their votes; and if the difference was, as stated in this instance, servative politics, said that the Java sugar would all come under of a slight character, still the vote was to be reversed, and thus the denomination of clayed, or white clayed sugar, and would be was the affront made more pointed than ever.--( Loud cheers.) subject to the high duty of 345. per cwt. ( The Hon. Member This did appear to him (Lord Palmerston) a doctrine utterly alsoread a letter from Messrs. Thornton and West to the same new in the practice of a constitutional Government—one most effect.) He had several other letters from gentlemen, who all dangerous in its consequences to the independence, the utility, concurred in considering the measure of the Vt'est India interest and the character of that House.—(Cheers.) Were he a sup- ademand for increased protection. He must, therefore, without porter of the Government, however much he might value the any disrespect to the Noble Lord, call upon him not to throw a stability of the Government, he should value his own character taunt of inconsistency upon himself, and those who voted in the more, and he should say to the head of that Government, I House on that occasion. They were simply desirous of pro cannot and I will not give a vote which is not consistent curing for the country the best measure within reach, and with my honour.—(Loud cheers.) Never in his life they were not taking this course with any desire to put them. was he (Lord Palmerston) more surprised than when he heard selves in the smallest degree in opposition to the Noble Lord the course determined on by the Government. Every one and his friends.--( Hear, hear. ) had speculated on what course they might take, but no matter Mr. ROEBUCK said the view taken by his Hon. Friend how they speculated they would have taken that which they might appear to call for some remark. There was a reduction had resolved on. Government might have come down, and of duty proposed to the House, but the Member for Man with much grace, and fair credit to themselves, have said they chester objected that that the proposal emanated from' the were prepared to acquiesce in what appeared to be the opinion frier:cis of free trade. Now what did he care for that?... of that House.—( Hear, hear.) They might have said, since ( Hear, hear.) It so happened that the West Indians conceived Parliament had chosen to sacrifice so much revenue, Parlia- that their interest coincided with that of the consumer. They ment must make it good. This course would have been in- said, "If you reduce the price you increase the consumption, telligible, honourable, and just.—( Hear, hear.) Or the Right and thereby enable us to get a higher price for our sugar." Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) might have said, there was such a Without, therefore, in the slightest degree regarding the nate. manifest difference of opinion between his Government and the rests of the West Indians, he was fully persuaded that the pro. House, that he should appeal to the country—not as an appeal posal before the House was calculated to protect the interest was usually made against his opponents—but against his own both of the West Indians and of the consumer.—( Hear, hear.) supporters—( A laugh)—or ask of the country to return him a The Right Hon. Gentleman and the Noble Lord opposite said body of Members more disposed to support the general senti- the object of those who voted in favour of the Hon. Member ments of the Government.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Then for Bristol nas inimical to the Government. He begged to there was a third course which the Bight Hon. Baronet and his say that he had no enmity against, them, and he would at that colleagues might have taken with dignity and honour. When moment be very sorry to see them out of power. But they they saw how the votes stood the other evening they might had had the remarkable confession of the Minister that evening., most fairly have said, we perceive a progressive increase of that with a majority of 100 he was unable to carry on the ors,. difference of opinion between ourselves and our supporters— nary business of legislation.—( Hear.) The fact is, that when the, we are satisfied we have lost the confidence of many of our Government came into power, and incurred the responsibilities friends, and it will be better to resign on this plain and tangible of office, they found themselves brought into immediat e , ground, rather than call upon our party to rescind a vote to collision with a small section in this country. The present which they have deliberately come.—(Cheers.) Had the Government bad been again and again taunted with hay. Ministers have done this there would have been no blush.— ing come into office under the pretence that they would sup. (Cheers, and a laugh from Lord Stanley.) But they had port protection. It will be the cry against all who shall own s raised a blush—and it was not the first, and it would not into office hereafter upon the support of the same party, thug be the last.—( Hear, hear.) When on the Opposition benches in that, was the greatest victory of free trade, that there wee Ministers were strongly averse to the principles of free trade— now a small section who felt that protection did not serve having changed to the other side, they liked those principles them—(Hear, hear)—and asked for low prices as the hest in the abstract, but they said they liked them not in practice— means of promoting the interest of the producer as well as of and now they sported them occasionally they were afraid to the consumer .—( Dear, hear.) That would be the case also wear them out by too much use, and kept them, as it were, for with the section which the Hon. Member fo r S omerset re. high days and holidays.—( Hear, hear. But they still pre. presented—the agricultural interest.—( Hear, hear.) The served specimens of the—he should rather say our—principles, supporters of the Government need never again in order to show that they did not altogether repudiate them. complain of their leader.—(Cheers.) It was ueete l e They opposed our proposal for a fixed duty on corn, but on to talk of mysterious influences at work, producing the frontiers of Canada they had the fixed duty in operation. coldness in Alay, discontent in June, and perhaps All the corn that came from America through Canada came open war in July.—( Cheers and laughter.) There was some in on the fixed duty principle. They opposed the principle of difficulty in accounting for all this. But it was one of those free trade, that of having no duty at all, except merely for re- difficulties which were propounded by those who obtained a re gistration. They had a specimen of that too. The corn that putation for wisdom, by refusing to give an answer to their came from the State of Maine, under the Ashburton treaty, own questions.—(Derisive cheers from the lower Tory through New Brunswick, came In on the free-trade benches.) Gentlemen might laugh, but he bad known that principle and paid no duty at all.—(Hear, hear.) Thus principle to be carried out through works of fiction of three though they seemed to value These principles on the one hand, volumes extent.—( Cheers and laughter.) The support of the they took care to use them as little as possible; on the other Government might be accounted for by a reference to the text hand, they took care to have specimens of them in operati on . from which a Rev. Prelate p reached a sermon before a great that they might be able to say for the future that they not only Minister (Mr. Pitt), when he was elected M em b er f or t h e agreed with them in the abstract, but had applie d them as far Universit y of Cambrid g e :—" There is a lad amongst us who as the application was possible. He thought the n that the has five barle y -loaves and thr ee small fishes ; but what is that great question they had to consider to-night was, whether amongst so many."—(Great laughter.) they would surrender their independent will, and their sincere Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Come conviction, to the dictates of the Government—whether the mittee divided, when there appeared— Gentlemen who voted upon their own opinion, and their own For Mr. Miles' motion 233 deep convictions, on Friday night, would vete on Monday ac- Against it cording to those convictions, persisting in their consistency, Majority for Ministers although at the risk of losing a Government which they wished The announcement of the numbers was received with loud to keep in power. If the question were between maintaining Ministerial cheers. that consistency and losing the Government they generally On our admission into the gallery we found. supported, he thought the sense of honour, and a regard for Mr. MILES on his legs, stating, that as the Committee was the character of Parliament, would leave them no alternative against his motion, he should not persevere. in such a choice. But let them not deceive The Bill then passed through Committee pro forma, and the themselves by such an apprehension ; let them not House resumed. imagine, if they did persist in their former vote, BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. that their doing so would lead to any change in the Govern- Mr. WARBURTON wished to know the order in which the ment. They need only look at this House, and see how it was business would be taken to-morrow (this day) composed, to see what were the relative positions of parties, Sir R. PEEL desired to know whether Hon. Gentlemen when any question was really at issue between the opposite intended to persevere in the motions of which they had give rs sides, and they would be convinced that this threat was an idle notice before he could fix the order of the business ? one—a threat that would not, and could not, be carried into Mr. HUTT would bring forward the motion of whi c h h e execution. When the Government said that it had lust the had given notice on the subject of soap, if there were a House. confidence of the House, what did it mean ? He (Lord Pal- which in the present excited state of the public mind, be merston) said that it meant, when a vital question was put be- scarcely thought would be the case. fore the House, not the mere rescinding of a vote, but when The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if the Government knew beforehand, that a default must be the the Hon. Member did not expect a House, perhaps he would consequence of the vote about to be given. Well, when abandon his motion. questions of that sort had come before them what indications Mr. HUTT considered the subject of so much importann had there been of a want of confidence ? Why, the Govern- that he could not consent to put off his motion. ment had a majority varying from 90 to 100, and he would Sir R. PEEL would take the Dissenters' Chapels Bill after venture to say, that whatever might be the decision to-night, the Sugar Bill on Thursday, and the Bank Charter Bill on if on any day during the present week, any gentleman on the Friday. Opposition side of the House should propose a resolution, as- Mr. WYSE had a motion on the paper relative to the sorting a want of confidence in her Majesty's Government, it system of education at Mavnooth. He wished to know when would be negatived by a majority of not less than 90 or 100. it was likely the grant for Mayneoth would be brought on, in —(lronical cheers.) Away then with this nonsensical order, if possible, to avoid two debates on the same subject ? pretext of a want of confidence.—(Loud cheers.) Away Sir R. PEEL considered that the Dissenters' Chapels Bill with the pretext that it was necessary that gentle- and the Bank Charter Bill were measures of so much ita. men should unsay what they had said so forfeiting all chit- portanee, that he thought it better to proceed with them first. racter and title to independence and consistency.—( Cheers.) and afterwards he would fix a day for the Maynooth grant. He said that the Government could not be in earnest when it Mr. T. DUNCOMBE had understood that Thursday was said that it had lost the confidence of the House. The recen t fixed for the New Poor -law discussion. He supposed that it votes of the House proved the contrary, and not wishing to was to be postponed again---( H ear , h ear .) N ow , w ith regsr 4 say anything more severe than had been already said, be did to the Sugar Duties Bill, why did they not proceed with it at believe that the vote which the supporters of the Government once, instead of go i ng through the farce of a discussion ? Let were called on to give to-night had been most accurately described the Chairman report progress, and have the Bill read a third d that by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, when he sat _ how- time at once. -Where was the use of this farce, if, after the ever anxious the Government might be to put an end to slavery House h a d d ec i ded a clause, a Minister was to get op and say. in other parts of the world, yet they still w ished to keep in "If you do not rescind your vote I will resign ?"--(A laugh.' chains those who sat behind them on the Treasury benches. It would be better to proceed at once with the Bill. —( Cheers.) Sir R. PEEL would be glad to proceed as speedily as possi. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said -he was unwilling to let ble, but the third clause had been put off to suit the confetti.. the debate come to a conclusion without tendering his thanks ence of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. to the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire, for the Mr. T. DUNCOMEIE— Why not rescind the vote you have manner in which he bad answered the Noble Lord, the Member just come to, and go on at once ?—( Laughter. ) for Sunderland. He begged to assure that Noble Lard that, . Sir R. PEEL, in answer to a question from Mr. Duncoxelass however slight m i g ht be the friendship of the Ri g ht H on . sa id h e was at presen t un able to Ax the precise time on which Baronet, yet the agriculturists of England considered the hes- the Poor-law Amendment Bill would be introduced. tilitv of the Noble Lord and his p art y t o be so inveterate and 1 The Limitation of Actions (Ireland) Bill was then read a imp l aca bl e , that it would be long ere they w ou ld l en d hi m their third time. countena nce. The Noble Lord had stat e d t h at a f r i en dl y dis- ' Ott the motion for the further consideration of the Lora position had existed on the whole between her Majesty's Go- Amendments to the Night Poaching Bill, vernm ent and the agricultu ra l b o d y. A s the Right Hon. Mr. WARBURTON said that these amendments had been Baronet had told them, now was the time to speak out; he only placed in the hands of Members that morning, and he wished the tone of his speech had enabled him to feel that the moved the further consideration of the Bill be postponed till Right Hon. Baronet entertained that feeling also. But he to-morrow (this day). asked the House and the country to remember what the con- After a short conversation, the House divided oa the motion, duct of the agricultural body had been since the present Go- when there appeared— vernmeut came in to power. That was described to be the hour For gnai tn s e t itsadournment of the question b A of victory an d t h e h our o f tr i ump h f or t h e agr i cu l tura l party..• 37 He asked the House whether the agriculturists had availed Majority themselves of that hour of triumph, or used that hour of victory On our return to the gallery we found to demand any fresh protection for themselves?—(Laughter Mr, WALLACE consenting to tpone the further =W and cheers ) That theagriculturalbody did not merit the thanks desation of the Bill till to-morrow this day). of the other aide of the House was nothing; they n eve r RAILWA S. expected them, But they did look for the approbation of the Mr. GLADSTONE brought in a Bill to &thugs certain arm. country ; they did expect the approbation of posterity.— ditions to the construction of future railways, authorised, or to (Laughter.) When it was reme mbered that in their hour of be authorised, by any Act of the present or succeeding sessions triumph they submitted to a revision of all those duties which of Parliament, and for other purposes in relation to railways. affected their own interests, and acguieseed in the lowest degree which was read a first time. of protection, what had been the conduct of the agricultural The other orders of the day were then disposed of, asd the body since? When they were driven to a demonstration of . House adionsalst at a Quarter past One o'Clock. I I