The Sun. — London, England, 1845-04-01 00:00:00

m055....................................mary... - ......+. .............' ....."... _ exist: great anxiety on the subject.— (Cries of "Order, I opportunity of directing attention to certain statements order.") connected with the force of the country. He did not The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Greene)—The House is now I kuow whether those statements were correct or not ; in a Committee o f the whole House and cannot enter- but at all events if they were not, it would be no Calk Lain the rnetion of the Hon. Gentleman.—(licar, hear.) en' his, for it would be recollected that some time ago he Mr. CORRY—I did not move the Committee until made application to the Government for certain re five o'clock. turns, which returns were refused, because it Mr. WAKLEY rose amidst loud cries of " Order, was not thought proper by her Majesty's Government order, chair, chair," from all parts of the House. that they should go forth to the public. The first re- The Honourable Gentleman exclaimed with con- turn which he wished to be made was a report of a survey siderable animation, I hope that it will be under- into the state of the navy, which took place bhortly after stood that this (the Opposition) side of the House the present Government came into office ; but that report approves of my not going on with my motion.—(Cries was refused him. Now he had been told by a gentleman of " Order, order.") who had seen that report, that it was by no means setts- Mr. CORRY resumed. He was observing, before the factory. He had not seen the report himself, and if interruption took place, that he threw himself upon the this was an incorrect impression, perhaps the Right indulgence of the House, which was always willingly Hon. Baronet would be able to set him right. It would extended towards gentlemen circumstanced as he was, be remembered that he asked for a return, show- The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to make his state- ing the number and state of all classes of ment of the estimates, but throughout he spoke in ships in the navy on the Ist of January, 1845, but such a low tone as to be frequently quite inaudible. this return was refused. Now, he thought that after a He believed that it would be only conforming with peace of thirty years, during which they had spent be the wish of the Committee, if in this preliminary tween forty and fifty millions in the construction of statement, he should confine himself as much as pos- ships, the Government ought not to be ashamed to sible to the various cases of increase and decrease show to the whole world that the British navy under the several heads in the estimates which he had was now as perfect as it could possibly be.—(Hear.) now to propose. With respect to the first, that of He did think, that after a peace which had laetsd for the increase of 4,000 men to the navy, it thirty or forty years, that the Board of the Admiralty was- unnecessary for him to enter, after what had ought not to be ashamed to show the British navy to fallen from his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the the whole world ; but he especially conceived that this Government in his financial statement. That increase was particularly applicable to the steam navy. bad been rendered necessary by the increased demand at It was well known that this, was an arm of the ser the three great stations on the coasts of Africa, and vice p articularl y a pp licable to the present state of science, China, and in the Pacific. On those stations alone 6,000 and that it vi as likely to come into still more powerful men were required, a force equal to the full complement use than had ever before been witnessed. He thought, of eight ships of the line, and this force was therefore, that he was fully entitled to ".sk for re. indispensable for the protection of British inter es t s , turns respecting the steam navy. The Hon. Member The vote which was required for wages was 1,889,5451., for Montrose had, in 1843, asked for and obtained being an increase of 119,0674 The next vote was for returns respecting this branch of the service, and he did victualling the seamen and marines, and in this vote not understand why returns connected with this branch the increase was 65,585/. In vote three, for the Admi- —he might say the very same returns—should not be ralty offices, there was an increase of 2,8601., which had given to him up to the year 1833. They had returns been principally occasioned by:additional salaries to the of the several classes of the navy, apparently some of surveyors of the navy and the director of the works, them very complete. They had returns of the frigates The salary of the Secretary of the Admiralty was re- from 28 to 58 guns, and of line-of-battle ships from 70 dated by the estimate fro m 1,500/. to 1,0001. a y ear— g uns u p to 90, and he perceived that there were 74 (H ear , h ear ) —and in the vote for the registry of merchant coasters and other small vessels, 65 sloops, 45 frigates, seamen there had been an increase, but that was neces- a nd 50 stationary ship s . Now he should wish to sary from the passing of the Act during the last year. know what possible objection there could be to give him There was a slight increase in the expenditure of those a statement of the number of ships in commission last removed from the dock-yards to the penal settlements. year, including a return of the steam navy of the country ? The whole sum proposed to be voted is 1,199,1401, It appeared to him very anomalous that the Government b e ing an increase of 145,1561., as compared with the vote should be continually calling for large estimates of last year. For No. 11 he proposed the large from the public purse, when they had already posses amount of 486,346/., being an increase of 184,4801. sion of the effective fleet which they represented in their s compared with the vote of last year. The returns in -the course of last year. Now he believed whole of the increase was entirely for the purpose of that if these estimates were necessary they would building steam-vessels, which were now in p rogress i n re q uire as much as 50 sail of the line. Now, he believed Portsmouth and Devonport. The expense of c o ns t ruc t- th a t, with all their advantages, they could not get fifty ing such vessels was necessarily grea t, an d h e f e l t sa il o f the line on the water in less than twelve ,months. sure the House would not object t o suc h an H e meant with the complement of frigates, sloops, and expenditure. They were for the protection of corvettes. He knew that fifty sail of the line, with all these a long line of coast, which in time of war was most ex- necessary a djuncts, was no mean fleet to send to sea, posed to invasion. T he y were re q uired for the p rotec- and he was well aware of the power which such Ilion of commerce. For the steam-vessels now in a fleet would exercise, if rightly manned by regress, ,• ress 100 000/ w ould be allocated for the build- British sea men, when once .fairly under weigh, p , ing of steam-vessels at Portsmouth, and 80,000/. and he was anxious to support efficiently the navy ; but for a similar purpose at Devonport. 15 ,000 1 . was still he conceived that with the large sums which they proposed for the steam factories at Woolwich, were called upon to vote, they ought to be able to put 45,000/. for first-class slips for the building of such a fleet to sea in the most efficient manner. steamers for the Channel, and 140,0001, for the With their present means he believed they could not purchase of machinery for the dockyards. In do this in less than twelve months, though with a better consequence of the recommendation of th e Committee system, by which they would be able to bring the mer of last year considerable increase had taken place chant dockyards into play, they could with little under this head, amounting—(as we guessed, for, to un- or no delay send twenty sail of the line, -with their derstand the Hon. Gentleman was impossible) —to additions of frigates, sloops, and corvettes. If the 4,7001. In the estimate, No. 13, there had been a very vessels were well built and properly kept in repair, largeincrease,of67,ooo/., for the purchase of land for dock- the Government would save a great deal of money. He yards, workshops, and buildings at Portsmouth. In the would then go through the number of vessels in the meat estimate, No. 18 ( re l a ting t o half-pay), there was a docks besides the number of those in the water. It ap decrease of 16,2361. ; but he thought it right to take that peered to him that many of them were not tit opportunity of informing the House that in the course for service * and if they were not intended to be sent of the session he should have to propose an estimate to sea again, they ought to be sold at once, as they in connexion with this vote 19 enable the Government would produce a considerable sum of money. Before to carry into effect a scheme for (we believe) the eaten- showing the number of ships in the docks it was neces sion of the steam navy. He thought that the House would be sary to show what number of vessels were on the stocks. desirous to co-operate with the Government in giving The Queen was proved to be a bad vessel, having been encouragement to a class of men who were unem- obliged to be taken into the Sheerness Dock because ployed, although in full possession of their unimpaired she could not steer properly ; it was found necessary to energies.—(Cheers.) The details of the measure put a false bow in her, and also I believe she got a false wore not yet fully prepared.—(Hear, hear.) The follow- stern, a bustle—(Laughter)--at considerable expense; ing items, Nos. 15, 16, 17, and 18, did not call for any and now they did not kuow whether she would particular explanation. They included an increase to answer. So much for the Queen.—(Laughter.) The the amount of 29,485/. He now came to the last rote of Boscawen having been turned into a 70 gun these estimates, No. 19, which was for the sum of 212,2321. ship was pulled to pieces ; the Union, the for thecontract for the Atl a ntic an d otherdistant packets. Severn, the Porcupine of 20 guns, the Sealark The whole expense of the contract, which opened up a of 10 guns, the Tigris and the Ibis were also steam communication once a month with India, and once pulled to pieces. There were three deck ships, independent st fortnight with China, would be only 160,000/. ; and of that number, the Royal Albert, Victoria, and Prince of of this sum 70,0004 would be borne by the East Wales. When the present surveyor of the navy came into India Company. Before he concluded, he was office, he commenced by building at a great breadth, but most anxious that the whole of the increase where were they to stop now ? It appeared most extra in the naval estimates should be fully explained. ordinary. The Royal Albert was made sixteen feet The whole of the votes were estimated at broader than the Queen ;if we increase them, where 686,0721, and of this sum 193,2804 - were for are we to get men to furl their sails ? It was wages for the victualling and registering astonishin,‘ , to him how it could be done at all. of seamen-78,0544 for the expenses of dock- He thought, before the House voted more money for yards—these made a total of 2 7 1 ,3741., making the construction of steam-boats, they ought to have es gross total in round numbers of 400,000/. an assurance that some person would be op ;383,0001. were required for the purposes of steam nevi- pointed to inquire into the subject. It was useless for gation, and this was an increase upon the estimates of Members to suppose that they did their duty in voting the preceding year of 31,0001. He trusted the House for the motion that had been proposed. It was the same would agree with him in opinion that these estimates thing with regard to those lion. Gentlemen near him, had been framed as much for the efficiency of this who had a fellow feeling with the official gentlemen on branch of the public service as with that view to economy the other side of the House, because they had some with which he was always ready to admit those subjects expectation of being in the same position themselves. should be approached. He believed, also, it would be They were, therefore, always found in the same lobby conceded that the increased expenditure was not when it came to a vote. Now there was the Retribution, large, or greater than the increased extent of a steam-vessel, of 1640 tons. She was larger than a the navy eleinanded. The increased sum stated frigate, but did not carry a gun on her main deck, and it as necessary for an addition to the steam navy would was morally impossible to fire her stern guns. There be readily admitted to be not more than could be was a still larger steam-vessel, of 1830 tons, which was deemed requisite f u r that branch of the service, in order so built that it was impossible to get her guns out. She that it should not be inferior to that of any other had no stern-posts, though he had heard that two had maritime nation.—(Hear, hear.) Re would now con- been cut in her. He should like to see them, however. elude, and begged to thank the House for the kind and The Samson was in the same category exactly, and he indulgent manner in which they had heard him, thought that the machinery in the Samson was worse tend to move that 40,000 men be employed in the navy, placed than in any of the others. It was higher up, and including 10,500 men for the Marines, from and after he would defy a shot to be fired into her engine-house the 31st of March, 1846, without carrying away her machinery, it was so exposed. Upon the CHAIRMAN putting the question, With regard to the Firebrand, Captain Corrie, who Mr. WAKLEY rose and said he begged to move that went with the experimental expedition, and than whom the Chairman do now report progress, and ask leave to there was not a better officer, nor one who would give sit again, and he did so for the purpose of reminding her a fairer report, said of her that she was perfectly useless. Majesty's Government of what had taken place in He would say nothing of the Vulture, because he had this House before E as ter in reference to a question he not been on board of her, and he would not state any then brought forward. He begged to remind the Right thing that he did not know. The Cyclops was intended Hon. Baronet, her Majesty's Secretary of State for the for a frigate, but it was found that she would not carry Home Department, of what he (Mr. Wakley) had said guns on her main-deck at all ; and the Gorgon frigate upon that occasion in reference to the Post-office affair. had to be cut down to a corvette, and the sooner the --(Hear, hear.) He then said that his constituents had same was done with the Cyclops the better. He now forwarded him a p e tition, requestin g him to present it to came to the steam sloops. They consisted of 24, and this House, in reference to the opening of letters ; and they cost 462,1041. without the machinery, and the -at the same time expressing the great anxiety machinery cost perhaps as much more, but they were - they felt for a full explanation upon the only fit to be used as packet vessels. Their engine subject, not having yet had anything like a houses were so high that it was impossible for a shot to be satisfactory explanation.—(Hear, hear.) When he pre- fired into them without destro y in g their machiner y . sented that petition he stated that it was not his wish He had had a great deal of conversation with the best to put her Majesty's Government to any inconvenience ; engineers of the country, and they had told him that if a 1 but he felt compelled to adoptthe course he had taken, his proper sum of money were paid, there would he no diffi ieonstituents having declared that they would not be culty in reducing this machinery to a level with the natisfied until they had been assured whether or not main deck, to bring it at least as low as the cylinder, thus any warrant had ever been issued, authorising the open- exposing nothing but the piston-rod and the connecting ting 0! certain letters already mentioned.—(Hear.) How- rod, and he even believed that it would be possible to get (ever, though he did forego his right in order not to in- the eccentric rod into a hollow tube so as to preserve it convenience the Government, he now begged to say from the shot of the enemy. Now the steam-pipes also that he vats compelled to make the motion, and should in all these steam-vessels were carried along the !eke the ;vase of the House upon it, for he felt it a duty deck about the water-mark ;so were the steam incumbent opon him to do so, and this course he had boxes, and it was altogether a farce to call these intimated to Zlee Right Hon. Baronet his intention to steam-vessels vessels of war. If they took one of them adopt, b e f o re Renter. Now, he had come down to the and fired a shot along her decks without damaging her Home, to-day, for diet purpose, and remained there three engines he would never open his mouth again.— quarters of an hour, And then absented himself (Laughter.) Now he held in his hand a list of the for a bout sor 6 m inutes; and yet, to his surprise, he found steam-packets which had been lately built, some eight in on, his return, though it was not then five o'clock, that all, which had cost, each of them, about 58,752 /. , exclu the Holiest had commenced business in Committee ; and sive of the machinery. He had the bills at that moe that, he should say, appeared to him to be rather sharp ment—(Laughter)—but be would come to the ships practice.—(Hear, hear.) He did think the usual that had been built, and here he would speak from per prae ac e was to discuss grievances .Before going sonal knowledge. He had been on board of the Centaur, into Committee of Supply. He should be the day before yesterday, and he found that she was in sorrr th a t an y course should be adopted by this Ufnise the same category with the others; but it was not yet that would he likely to create any excitement outofdoors ; Lou late to alter her, and to give her stern guns on the but le could not help saying that it was not quite fair maii;-deck. He believed they were all pretty near the to have acted towards him in thi s way after what he build of each other.—(Hear, hear.) The Govern sand in reference to this subject before Easter.—(Hear.)' meat had at last, however , appo in t ed Mr. Pin Sir IteOBERT PEEL trusted th a t the Hon. Member cher to build a steamboat, and lie (Sir Charles wo inld not persevere in his present motion, o . r that he Napier) would call it the first steam-boat they had ap wo mid not take the sense of the House upon it.—(Hear.) plicable to the purposes of war, as upon it they could At the same time, he begged to assure the Hon. Member, point four g uns aft and two for'ard. They could also have that there was not the slightest intention on his side of two swivel guns pointed from the fore deck. On the the 'House to take any unfair advantage of him, authority of such men as Mr. Filcher, he was willing to It r. WAKLEY—i was absent only five or six mi- undertake a great deal of responsibility. He would not mute,;, hesitate to deepen a vessel fur the purpose of enabling Sit ROBERT PEEL begged to assure the Honour- her to carry two hundred tons of coal additional. lie able Member that no intention whatever existed approved of the building of iron steam ers, as in the to 4ke the advantage of him he appeared to ap- case of the Vulture ; for he was one of the first to build preh e e d ; but every Hon. Member should be an ironsteamer, and he was the first to cross the Channel aveaee that it had been determined on to commence the in one. But as they were at present constructed he p_ublic business at half-past four o'clock.—(Hear, hear.) thought that they were dangerous. It was to be re- Beside i, he begged to say in addition, that it was membered, that if a shot passed through iron plates, the th e impression of her Majesty's Ministers that the iron would not be so easily plugged as wood ; and he, Ron_ a l - ember did not intend to persevere with his therefore, s h ou ld recommend that there should be a motion. .He also begged to assure the Honourable considerable quantity of timber along the i r on, the whole Member, that after the notices of motion length betw een wind and water. He would recommend had been reed to-day, five or six minutes elapsed the Gallant Officer to make the experiment of passing a before his Hon. Friend the Secretary of the shot throug h a steamer to tr y the result. It had been Admiralt moved that the House do go into- C omm ittee his intention to move for a C ommittee ; but after the of Supply _.(l3ear, hear.) Agai n h e begged to assure statement which had been made in that House, he really t he Hon. Member that there was no t the slightest wish thought it wou ld not hurt the di g nit y of the admirable hotako any advantage of him, and he (Sir R. Peel) row of t hose g entlemen who were out of office, hop e d he did not think so.—(Hear.) if they were to order a commission to inquire whether Mr. WAKLEY could only state that it was intimated the existing system was the best. to him as h e cam e int o th e H ouse that sharp practice h a d Sir G. COCKBUR N, who spoke in so low a tone of been se l o pt e d in his cas e .—(H ear , h ear. ) voice as to be scarcely audible in the gallery, said, Sir ( IHARLES NAPIER said if his lion. Friend had he thought his Hon. and Gallant Friend ouht he to have i reason Ito complain, he thought he had still more so. H© which Wi a th had on ly left the House to secure a paper, and brought under the consideration of t e use. . given notice of the various subjects althougi Ihe ran back as fast as he could, h foud the regard to the steam navy, he would state, that it was Sneaker had left the chair. Nobody 'than he did the retirement ofthe Hon. Gentle- • not so well utnlerstood as it was at present. reetted more established at a time when the system of steam naviga- Right tam was man the Secretory at War from the office of Secretary When the present Government came re buinto ilt office was the to the Admiralty. He believed it was ve ry generally principle upon which steam frigates wefhwater.t ha admitted that no man had peformed the duties better of having the machinery above the level o t e than h e did. Th e Right Honourable Gentleman He believe d that the Penelope war steamer was one n..`. display e d grea t zea l and sbilitY while he held that office, the best and most serviceable in the service, and lie could and he thought he had fully earned his promotion. If not but think that the employment of such steamers roust tt‘ anything could remove the regret which he entertained be beneficial to all parties. In those steam-vessels, h as at lo s i ng th a t Right Honourable Gentleman, it was the whole of the machinery being under water, it w new of see i ng installed into the office the present safe as magazine stores. He could assure the ouse .aa that new Secret a ry t o th e Admiralty, who had just made a the Admiralty had not failed in giving encouragement, to Most able and excellent statement. He did not believe projectors in the art of ship-building, and eve body the Ri g ht Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government who suggested an improvement in the construction .t. of . could have selected a more competent or efficient person ships to the Board of Admiralty, had a OAF trial. to fill that office.—(Hear.) He was extremely happy He felt very much obliged to the Gallant Officer valuable 1 to find from the statement of that Right Hon. Gentle site (Sir C. Nepier) for the suggestions—the _ maw that they were going to have an experimental suggestions—lee had made ; and the Admiralty i would squadron, and he hoped when that squadron weer to sea be always most anxious to take advantage oft iem.— it would be commanded by an officer who would look (Hear, hear.) lie thought it right tq state, however, e out for a good squall or bad weather to try the cape, that Mr. Finchen declined to carry out the enteesmen a bilities of the new ships belonging to this country.— tines ,gf the Gallant Officer. In respect to our steam Before th e y proceeded to vote immense navy, as compared withthat of our neighbours, he esti sums for the use of the navy, h e must take the mated them as three to t v/Q—our steam navy had 30,000 horse-power to their 20,000 horse-power.—(Hear, hear.) I Regarding the allusions which had been made to old and imperfectly constructed ships, it should be remembered that a long period had elapsed since their construc tion, but yet not one of those ships had been broken up, and only one of them was made a receiving-ship. It was not at all extraordinary that changes should be made in the construction of ships, now that some of the old models had, by the progress of science and experience, become obsolete ; in fact, the great cause of alteration was, the increase of science. —(Hear, hear.) how ever, Hon. Members should not run away with the idea that all the ships in the last war were bad ones, or of an inferior construction ; it should be recollected that during the war, the Inconstant, a frigate of small power, compelled a French man-of•war, which was clear. ing the harbour of Malta, to lower the topsails and yards, and actually engaged with her until one of our line-of-battle ships came up. Yet, this French man of war was considered the he plus ultra of French genius. The Hon. and Gallant Officer mentioned other instances where British ships of much inferior size and force were victorious over foreign vessels. It was true enough, as observed by the Hon. Member for Montrose, that Eng land was the only nation which, at the close of the war, had not a scientific Board for naval affairs. A school of naval architecture had been subsequently established, which bred many excellent seamen ; but he thought the present system was as well calculated to encourage genius as any other. It was an extraordinary fact, that, notwithstanding all that had been done to wards uniformity--to secure a principle which might be generally applied to ship-building—the Admi ralty had been unsuccessful ; and the most ex cellent steam-vessels had been constructed on totally different principles. As an instance, he might quoted the Espiegle and the Flying Fish—both admir able vessels, but both constructed in different modes. Several plans had been proposed, amongst others the parabolic curve, by Lord Dundonald, but he would not anticipate the results until they all had a fair trial. The 1-lon, and Gallant Officer had alluded to alterations made in the construction of steam-vessels recently built. The Surveyor of the Navy, one of the most accomplished sailors in the navy, had, certainly, directed some alte rations, and be thought he should be allowed to carry them out without interruption. He hoped the House would allow the estimates to be gone through, after the explanation he had given. Captain BERKELEY was glad to hear the Hon. and Gallant Officer state our superiority in point of steam vessels over our neighbours. He did not think the pam phlet of the Prince de Joinville was written in a hos tile spirit, but it kindled a wholesome spirit of improve ment in the British public as rep arded our navy, which was of the utmost importance. He thought the increase sought for was necessary, and he should support it cor dially. The best way to preserve the peace of Europe was to maintain and fortify our maritime power. The Prince de Joinville had suggested a steam navy as the best mode of bringing the contending Powers into a hand and hand conflict. If such should be the case, he be. lieved that, taking former occurrences for our guide, we should be, in ninety-nine encounters out of a hundred, successful. Then it was in the power of the British Government to fit out a fleet of steam-vessels, from her mercantile superiority, capable, not only of contend ing with France, but with the whole world. If they were to refer to Glasgow, to Liverpool, and the other great ports of our commercial intercourse, and which formed the entreptes of the navy of the kingdom, they would immediately see the immense power which the country possessed in the way of a steam navy, and how available they would be in the ability to form a steam navy for the purposes of war. If the Committee wauld allow him to suggest, he would say that the best way to form a navy of this kind would be to establish some power, by which they would be enabled to form a steam navy by which this country would be enabled to meet the power of the whole of the world. They had little to do but to place pivot-guns on the decks of these steamers to render them most effective vessels of war ; and they might estimate, from the return of the mercantile navy, the number of effective vessels of war which they could command, and by them they would be enabled to calculate their prowess for effective war fare. This power might, it was true, be indefinitely extended ; and if the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secre tary for the Admiralty were anxious that it should be extended, he for one was not anxious to restrict his powers nor those of the Government. The question, as it appeared to him, was as to how far the Government were entitled to this vote of credit on the strength of their past performances. For his part, he conceived that all that was necessary was to invest the Govern ment with a power to make arrangements with the proprietors of these vessels as they stood at present, and at a moment send them to sea. Now he had a plan to suggest, and he did so with considerable diffidence, but yet, as the object was the public service, he did not con ceive that any trespass that he might make on the patience of the house would be too great to obliterate the im portance of the public service, and he was exceedingly desirous that if the powers which the Government pos sessed were used to enlarge the effect of this mercantile power, there would at once be a steam navy that would be able to compete with that of all the world. What he would beg to suggest would be, that the navy should be drilled upz,n the custom of the marines, and what he wished was, that the navy should be drilled according to the fashion of the marines and in the same divisions as the marines were classed. If they did this, the navy would be able to act as marines, and the whole force would become one of effec tive artillery. His object was to convert the navy into as valuable artillery as the navy had proved themselves to be during the time of war. Sir GEORGE COCK[3URN said, it should be recol lected that all these men were trained. Captain BERKELEY said that he was aware that the question which had been raised by the Right Hon. Baronet, one of the Lords of the Admiralty, was one of great importance, and he was aware that many of the marines had been trained under the admirable system of Sir John Pritchard, at Portsmouth. By that system the whole of the sailors had become gunners, but it should be recollected that marines were engaged during a lung series of years, that they were occupied during the whole of their engagement in a continual series of exercises. The marines were engaged during a period of twenty-one years. Throughout the whole of that period they had the full opportunity of rendering themselves effectual ; and he must say that, while he acknowledged the claims of the navy, he must at the same time acknowledge that the marines were entitled to equal respect. He believed that the designs of Sir W. Symonds had done very great good to the naval service ; but he must, at the same time, say that it was necessary also to consider the feelings of the men who were engaged in that service, and what their claims would be in the event of war. Under these circum stances, he trusted that the Members of that House would well consider what they were about, before they voted those immense sums for the use of the navy. Captain ROUS said that he fully felt the effect of the observations of the Hon. Member for Ripon, and that he was alive to the great importance of those points which that Hon. Gentleman had introduced. With him he was inclined to complain of the way in which these things had been represented to the House. He had complained that the Eurydice was a donkey frigate, but he must beg to dissent from this opinion for the fact was that it was necessary to distinguish between these donkey frigates, of which the Hon. Gentleman seemed to be so fond, and others of the same class which were of a much more weighty order. The fact was that the Eurydice was of 940 tons burthen, and the general class of frigates to which he had alluded were not more than 600 tons, and he thought, therefore, that the opprobrious term of " donkey frigates" might be obviated by a little altera tion in the estimates. Sir G. COCKBURN explained by stating that these " donkey" frigates had been built before the im provements in naval architecture had been obtained. Captain ROUS said, to a certain extent, this might be true, but the fact was, the Admiralty had been reduced to the position of cutting down vessels from their real grade to that of an inferior one, in order to obtain the effective benefit of their qualities ; for instance, a vessel of 900 tons burden had been reduced to one of 600 ; line of-battle ships had been made frigates, and frigates had been changed into corvettes. He would adduce this one instance—that of the " Penelope," which, from a frigate of first-class character, had been extended into a steamer.—(Great laughter.) Now he thought such a sum as 1,273,0001. ought not to be expended without a full knowledge of the facts which required it being ex plained to the House. With respect to line-of•battle ships, he must say that the business was better observed, but he could not forget—and if he had forgotten, the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Admiralty would have reminded him—that no less a sum than 200,000,0001. had been expended since the peace in the conservation of the navy. He perfectly recolle led the observations of Mr. Pitt, shortly after the peace of Amiens—that it was necessary to render this country perfectly independent of all foreign powers in the way of naval architecture and appointment, and, in 1806, he had moved the appointment of a Select Committee on the state of the dockyards ; and he did not think that the same returns which had been granted to the Prime Minister in 1806, when the country was in a state of universal war, should be refused in 1845, when the country was in a state of peace. At the present moment, we had 306 vessels, including 88 sloops and other smaller vessels, and 21 ,frigates. At that time— the time to which he referred—there was no less than 1,100 vessels of one sort or other in commission. Of these, a great number were some of the line, and some of the lowest class were 50 gun frigates. Now, he held the surveyor of the navy in the highest esteem. In 1841 to 1844, it would be advisable to give a full statement of the state of the navy in every class of v ssel, and he believed the expenditure of 100,0001. would be little thought of by the country if it were necessary to put the navy in an effective state ; and to render the people satisfied that their favourite service was effective in every portion of its department. For these reasons, he was exceedingly happy to find that an experimental squadron was about to be sent to sea ; and he trusted that if three months were not sufficient that they would take six to establish the respective qualities of the ships of the squadron. He had heard the late experimental squadron had not been able to find a gale of wind, and that they had sailed with all their canvas set, and that occasionally double reefed top-sails had been used, when In fact they ought to have been under royals. He be, lieyed that large ships were the very worst school which could possibly be used by officers in the navy, and he was anxious that wen Who were to be used as effective o fficers should have the best possible edu,eetioß. Instead of the ten "lazy" sail of the line, he woad have twenty, and those he would make the best possible school fur young officer& He had been led to understand that / 0 4, 33; 4- 4 1 which the Hon. and Gallant Mem ber referred had been gat/ Se4r4 iu tb,,, navy. Now he knew bim to be a man of first-rate edutialitsn—df liih attainment in his profession, and of consummate experi ence; but still he thought that the experience of that Gal:.ant Officer was insufficient to proven case wLich was ithinsicaily He (Captain Rous) was aware of his services in 010 D.C.icliterraneua, 4A, xtill he must TilE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, APRIL 1 1845. doubt the utility of his propositions. Now what he would propose was that instead of ten sail of the line there should be twenty—not moored up in Portsmouth or Ply mouth, where there vviis a liability of all their services becoming useless, but in the Cove of Cork. His reason for this proposition was this, that in the Cove of Cork they would have a full command of the Chan nel and all its bays.—(Hear.) In two months or six weeks perhaps they would obtain a set of naval officers of experience in their profession, and of high character. But he believed that it was a very bad effect which was wrought upon naval officers by serving in small ships, and he felt assured that no education was equal to that which was obtained by services in small vessels. There were several series of services in the respective ranks to which be was happy to bear testimony, but to the terms of' which he was not quite ready to assent. The Hon. and Gallant Admiral the Commander in Chief had been said to hare been sixty-eight years in the service. Sir G. COCKBURN—That is wrong. Captain ROUS—He believed, at any rate, that the Gallant Admiral had entered the service in 1777, and that would show the term of service which he had stated. He thought it much better to have twenty sail of the line effective in their department than ten sail of the line lazy and useless. Admiral BOWLES said that he thought these ob servations were superfluous and uncalled-for. Captain PECH ELL said that he had not the slightest desire to confute the representations of the lion, and Gallant Admiral, but he did think that something was due to the country, in order to assure them of the qua lities of the ships in the navy, and of the means by which it was to he assured of the nature of the defences on which the country d e pended. He was the list man in the world t o di s p arage th e efficiency of the navy. He was not one to c r y u p the Russians, or to allow the representations of Admiral Darini, of the French navy, but he did believe that some toleration was necessary, in order to render the navy effec tive in itself and satisfactory to the country. He would therefore support the Gallant Officer in all that could be done to promote so desirable an object; but he, at the same time, hoped that he would give those vessels a fair and proper trial. lie (Capt. Pechell) did not blame him for turning frigates of large con struction into steam-vessels. He thought the experi ment was right, although he thought that such altera tions were not in accordance with the strictest rules of ship-building—sawing ships in the middle and putting engines into them, leaving the fore parts, the bad parts of the vessel still standing. But still it was a different thing to do that only once and to do it always; and he did hope that when the Gallant Admiral gave orders to construct other steam-vessels, he would place the pro pelling screw in them, at the same time adapting them for that purpose. It was more than two years since he had drawn the attention of the late Secretary to the Ad miralty (Mr. Sidney Herbert) to this subject, but it was only very lately that he heard of the systems being so far adopted that the screw was placed in the Rattler. He had recommended some time before that the pro pellin g screw should be placed in the royal yacht, but that recommendation was not acceded to. He yet found by the public press that a vessel to be attached to the royal yacht was to be acted on in that manner. At the present time it was absurd to talk of steam frigates being used as vessels of war, when half of those vessels were required for the machinery and similar pur poses. He did hope that the construction of these ves sels would be on a different principle, and he thought that the secretary of the Propelling Company would re ceive the reward which his merit deserved from a grate ful country. They had been indebted to Captain Symonds for great improvements in their naval architec ture ; for though he had not had the advantage of being a ship-carpenter by trade, he_ was a thorough seaman, and had opportunities of testing, and abilities to judge, the merits of the ship. Thus he could remedy the errors by supplying what was required by her. They were also indebted to Mr. Whyte for certain improvements, and he thought it was but right and fair, that they should encourage competition. It was one of his quar rels with the late Admiralty that they did not encourage Mr. Whyte. He had no hesitation, however, in saying that their navy had arrived at such a state of perfection that they might fairly set at defiance the naval power of the world. He had not been in the House when the Secretary of the Admiralty opened his budget, and he rather thought that the Hon. Gentleman had taken the House by surprise on this occasion ; but, before he acceded to this increase in the navy estimates, he should wish to hear a few particulars as to the expenditure of this public money. At this moment they were told that a Committee was ou foot is London, to endeavour to ascertain in what manner the treaties of 1831 and 1833 had been carried out. They were told that a large sum of money went to support a fleet on the coast of Africa, which might, on to-morrow, be withdrawn. It was rather an unusual circumstance that treaties obtained at so much labour, and so much cost, might yet be, with scarcely any notice, converted into so much waste paper. They were told that the Ministry of this country might find some other mode of doing away with the slave trade, otherwise than by retaining cruisers at the mouths of the rivers where slaves were embarked, and in those other places where they were landed. But it was curious to him to find in every part of Europe parties flattering themselves that they could by any other means than by cruisers do away with this nefarious traffic. No complaint hal, he be • lieved, been made that they were not sufficient for this purpose. As for the question which had been rai,ed in the French Chambers, and entertained by the Minister of this country, he (Captain Pechell) should be ashamed to sit in his place as a naval officer in that House, if he did not state his opinion on the subject. The circum stance of a French Minister coming into this country — into Downing-street—seemed to him the stifle as if a thief were deputed from the " swell mob" to sit in Scotland-yard with Colonel Rowan, for the purpose of getting rid of the police officers. No doubt this commis sion and the Noble Duke,on the part of France, who was a party himself to the treaty of 1833, woul i be glad to get rid of this section of the British navy. Before the year 1835, they had not been enabled, to any great extent, to put down the traffic in slaves on the coast of Africa ; for before that time the efforts of the officers and men on that station had been completely paralised. Since that year, however, he found that the British cruisers had been eminently successful, and if they took the two last years, they would find there bid been cap tured eight vessels bearing the flag of the United States, the Brazilian seventeen, the Portuguese sixteen, the Spanish sixteen, the Monte Vilean five, and an other ship sailing under no flag, making altogether sixty-three slave traders taken in two years, only nine of which, however, had a cargo of slaves on board, and therefore he thought that the British cruisers had shown themselves peculiarly efficient. Had it not been for those treaties, those vessels would not have been taken. In conclusion, he hoped that the naval officers employed on that coast, subjected to the pestiferous influences of that climate, would be found deserving the support of their country, so that when they returned with shat tered frames and destroyed constitutions, the Board of Admiralty would give them that promotion to which they were so justly entitled, and which they preferred before any pecuniary reward which it was in the power C of that House to bestow upon them. CARNEGIE would only occupy the House by making one remark in reference to the strictures passed by the Gallant Commodore on the construction of their steam ships. He (Capt. Carnegie) would only say that he would deem it the highest honour to be placed in command of one of them.—(Hear, hear.) Ile thought the Board of Admiralty, by their exertions for the improvement of naval architecture, deserved the support of the I-louse, and the thanks of the country. Mr. lIUME admitted that observations made in that House on the state of the navy frequently produced good, and he, therefore, did not object to discussions of that nature, but he must remind the Committee that they were altogether running away from the question before them.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The question before them was, what was the number of men to be employed in the navy and what was to be the expense. lie was one of those who always advocated economy, but he never did so at the expense of the interest or the character of the without opposition. At the same time he was sorry the Right Boa. Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury, was not present, because the Right Hon. Baronet, when he brought forward his budget the other even ing, said he would reserve any observations upon the proposed increase of the navy until the navy estimates should come before the House. He had therefore expected that the Right Hon. Baronet would have stated the reasons fur augmenting or con tinuing the present number of men employed in the navy. The present taxation of the country exceeded 58,000,000/, and it was a matter of regret to him that so few Hon. Members were p resent, when a lar g e pro portion wanted tn o e dm f ta t o h k a nk t na s on u w m i, n f w erro a em s a t ae o n Hon. Member of the Ca binet, whether they could state any reason w hy t he any Hon. v o o n ted n a n w v naval force of the country should be so much augmented over what it was in former years. Fur every previous augmentation, they had had a good and suffi cient reason assigned, and he could not understand how it was that none was given now. The situation of this country was much better now than it was ten years back, and he therefore considered Parliament had a right to ask the Government to give some good reason for this proposed augmentation. The Committee must not forget that they might do harm by maintaining too great a force as well as by keeping too little, because it not un frequently happened that an increase in either our army or navy excited the suspicions of foreign powers, and in duced them to augment their forces. in 1836 the num ber of men employed in the British navy was 115,100, bot in the present year it was proposed to increase it to 149,100, making a difference as large as 34,000, being equal in comparison to the total force employed in the 1792. It did appear to him then that they ought to have some explanation from the Government, as to the grounds upon which this augmentation was to take place. The expense of the army, navy, and ord inance in 1835 was 11,000,000 L was 6,000,0001. for the army, 4,900,000/ for the navy, and 1,000,000/. for the ordnance, making a total of upwards of 11,000,0001., but now the Government proposed to add 4,000,000/. to the expenses. Unless, therefore, some satisfactory reason were given by the Government, to .illstify it, he did not think it was the duty of the Com mittee to agree to the vote.----(lleer, hear.) The amount was one-fourth more now that it was in 1834 or 1836, and in the absence of any explanation, he must move as an amendment that the sum be 36,0001 instead of 40,00 e/ —C4ear, hear.) Mr. SIDNEY' BEM R' 'RT wished to say a few words with regard to the question before the Committee ; and, at the same time, he would take the opportunity of replying to the Hon. Member who had just resumed his pen rlt;h9 lion- isierabey Lao said ths4 no e t plauatioe had been given for any increase this navy but he differed with the Hon. Member. 'He begged leave, in support of this statement, to remind the Com mittee that, when his Right Hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury proposed the continuance of the income-tax, he did so upon three distinct grounds. The first was the impos sibility of any reduction in the army—the second the necessity for an increase in the navy—and the third the necessity for making great financial experiments. It was upon these distinct grounds that the Right lion. Baronet brought forward the continuance of the income tax ; and he believed that, at the time, the explanation gave general satisfaction. But the Hon. Member must not forget that it was a matter of importance that the country should be protected by good and seaworthy ves sels, whose capabilities could not be ascertained without some practical experience. To acquire this experience, it was necessary that an experimental squadron should be established, and this conld not be done without in curl ing great expense. It was only by experimental squadrons they could test the capabilities of a ship or a steamer, and the Honourable Member had heard that the Government intended to resort to this expen sive source of gaining maritime information. But what was the state of our commercial relations? Why, it had been stated that in 1841 there had been a positive in crease of 35,000 men for commercial purposes. On the coast of Africa an increase had been made in the naval force, with the view to the protection of commerce, and the suppression of the slave-trade. In China there had been an increase of 100,000, and five vessels, for the pur pose of maintaining order in the merchant service, and the protection of the British commerce in that quarter of the globe. It was to be remembered that piracies in those seas were not occasional and unexpected, or occur ring at distant intervals, but were systematically carried on by the military chiefs upon the coast of Borneo and the adjacent Islands, as a part of their state policy. The lion. Member, therefore, could hardly object to any ad ditional increase being made in our t aval force, for the advancement or protection of the commercial interests of this country in that quarter of the globe. The commerce of the country was daily extending, and it must entail upon the public a corresponding extension of the expenditure. The lion. Member had further asked whether in this time of profound peace the Go vernment proposed to build line-of battle ships and in crease the dockyards, because other countries were use lessly incurring similar expenses ? Now, he (Mr. S. Herbert) thought that nothing could be more impolitic than to go on continually changing our own establish ments in accordance with the changes adopted by other countries.—(Hear, hear.) However, he would say, look to the different position of this country and of the others referred to. Those countries had not the same amount of colonies that we had, and they would con centrate all their naval force within their own ports. — (Hear, hear.) But the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) said he agreed with the Gallant Officer opposite that there was no occasion to build more ships at present, but that they should wait until war came, when, if they had need, they could build fifty ships in one year. The Hon. Gentleman had also said that they could man 120 new ships in a year. An HON. MEMBER—It has been done. Mr. S. HERBERT—But they should remember that an enemy would not put off hostilities until this country was prepared with its full naval force.—(Hear, hoar.) And the House should look to what was the state of facts at the present moment. The Government could not at present, upon an emergency, immediately obtain an additional stock of timber, sufficient to build five ships in one year.—(Hear, hear.) Sir C. NAPIER—Oh, it would come in. —(Hear.) Mr. S. HERBERT—But while we waited for the timber to build, our coasts might be blockaded.— (Cheers.) Formerly, when we were in an unprepared tate, it cost the country a vast deal to build vessels in a hurry, which were of little or no use. We were obliged to build ships upon the spurt of the moment. In the first place, the Government was swindled by the contractors to a great extent ; and beside that, the ships when built were worth nothing, or next to nothing. He thought, therefore, on all considerations, that it would be impolitic to put off preparation to the last mo ment ; and, for his part, he would be sorry to see the Government left to have recourse to the commercial dock-yards upon an emergency.—(hear.) At the same time he must say that, although he saw other countries at this moment going to a great, and as he thought wasteful, expense for the enlargement of their dockyards, he should be very sorry to see this country following the example.—(Hear, hear.) Yet, looking to the actual state of the navy—seeing that, although we had a large number of ships, many of them were of great age. Sir C. NAPIER—WeII, break them up.—(Hear, and a laugh.) Mr. S. HERBERT—Many of them must before long come to be broken up. It was necessary to increase, at Portsmouth and Plymouth, the means of repairing and building ships of war, and to extend the means also at Pembroke.—(Hear, hear.) He had had opportunities of comparing the works going on at those ports with those of another country, which had been referred to ; and he could say that they would not cost one-third of the expense.—(Hear.) Although the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) seemed to forget the explanation given on the subject of these estimates by his Right Hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury, the country seemed not to forget, but to be satisfied with that explanation. The increase of the expenditure was required for extended operations to suppress the slave trade, and to afford in creased protection to our continually increasing commerce. Mr. HUME wished to state that he had not heard any explanation from the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, on the contrary, he had been in expec tation of the explanation up to the present moment. — (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Right Hon. Baronet had made a statement when he brought forward the sub. ject of the income-tax that we ought always to be pre. pared for war. But this was the sort of excuse for keep. ing up a war establishment to which he had always ob. jected. But the preparations now proposed looked as i we expected soon another Waterloo, or as if a hundred hostile pennants were flying in the; Channel. With re spect to the suppression of the slave trade, the attempt to effect that by means of a naval force upon the coast of Africa had completely failed. In fact, accord ing to the opinion of the late Sir F. Buxton, the employment of a naval force for that purpose had done more harm than good—had actually aggravated the evil. (Hear.) He (Mr. H.) had always endeavoured to show the country the uselessness of this waste of money, and to tell the public that if they wished to have a war establishment, they must expect to pay for it.—(Hear.) Lord INGESTRIE regretted that the statement of his Honourable Friend the Secretary at War had not been satisfactory to the Honourable Gen tleman (Mr. Hume), for to him it had been perfectly satisfactory.—(Hear, hear.) lie had not been present when his Hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty brought forward the first vote, but he was sure that the statement of his Hon. Friend would be looked upon with great satisfaction by the whole of the naval service. —(Hear.) He believed that the navy was, in every department, in a more efficient state than when gentlemen opposite were in office. —(Conservative cheers.) The " trial experiments " instituted by the present Admiralty had been conducted with perfect fairness, and promised to lead to important improve. ments in the science of ship-building. He greatly re gretted that the schools of naval architecture, recom mended in 1806, had not been upheld—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume)—and he thought that the gentlemen who were engaged to superintend those schools had been hardly dealt with. He hoped that justice would yet be done to those gentlemen, amongst whom he would par ticularly, but not individually, mention Mr. Clewin, Mr. Lloyd, Mr. Morgan, and others (whose names we did not catch). At the same time, he complained of the favour which had been shown to Captain Symonds, whose system he regretted to designate as most rotten and fallacious. Hitherto we had been groping in the dark, in naval architecture ; and the consequence was that, in the beginning of the last American war, we suffered much in reputation, and would have suffered more, if it had not been for the gallantry of our sailors.—(Hear.) The fact, at this moment, was, that all our best ships were built upon the model of those that had been taken from the enemy.—(Hear.) He believed that the system of building ships that had been adopted was most falla cious. He'considered that the surveyors of the navy had acted upon the most erroneous principles, and that the worst results hail attended their exertions. Mr. W. WILLIAMS objected to the vote. lie be lieved that the grossest praotioes had taken place, and he thought ho sheuld be able to prove that, if they would only grant him a Commmittee.—(Hear,) He entirely objected to the vote for the increase of the estimates of this year over the year 1835. The esti mates of that year were 4,200,0001., those of the present year amounted to 6,900,000/. For keeping ten sail of the line the expenditure was 200,0001. more than in 1841, when there wore 26 sail of the line at sea. These were circumstances which required explanation. The Right lion. Gentleman said that they were obliged to suppress piracy ; surely piracy had been carried on formerly as well as at present. He (SirJ.Graham) also ailuded to their three establishments in China, where the expenditure could not be very large. The increase of the navy was attended with an increase in the estimates of the ord nance. In 1835 the expenditure in the navy, army, and ordnance department was 900,0001. less than the vote of this year. He (Mr. Williams) should like to know from some Member of her Majesty's Government why they should require such an increase in the estimates in these three establishments compared with those of the year 1835. It was more than the whole of the expenditure of the army and navy of the United States, the only place they had to fear—their only difficulty was in that point. There was not one year since the peace, when such large supplies were voted for these services. Take the years 1841 and 1842, when there was not only a war in China, but a large fleet in the Mediterranean, and when there was an actual war on the coast of Syria, when the fortress of Acre was taken—in each of these years the expenditure was 340,0001. less than in the present year. After alluding to the immense increase in the expenditure in the service in this year over the year 1818, so soon after the peace, the Hon. Gentleman sail he could not help calling it ex cessively extravagant. Sir C. NAPIER observed that he did not think that the Gallant Officer on the opposite side (Sir G. Cock burn) acted fairly or justly towards him, for ho was not aware that he (Sir C. Napier) imputed greater mischief to the present Board of Admiralty than he did to the last. The Gallant Admiral made use of observations which were quite uncalled for ; he intimated that there were twenty naval officers in the command of steam boats who could support his statements. They ought to have sent for these officers and brought them before the Admiralty for examination. He did not think it f a i r for the Gallant Officer to say that he (Sir C. Nader) w as damning everybody but hi . lnself• hgwever did not say Single word about the ships w ich he (Sir Charles Napier) said were in the docks. The Gallant Admiral ' said that he did not pull those vessels to pieces i but he (Sir C. Napier) wanted to prevent them from being pilled to pieces in future. ir otie Admir a lty all ows i t aow, why not another do SO 111 future? When a Minis ter came tato power, 'he generally selected those who were in Parliament hunting for place, and who may be the greatest blockheads in the world, to conduct the affairs of the navy, instead of those who were well versed in those matters; but this was the nature of things. the next thing they did was to let the United States out —(Hear, hear.) He (Sir Charles Napier) himself of their engagement to co-operate for the suppression of might be in office, but they could find many that trade, and they were now about to cancel better men than be was. Were they to think that gen- a treaty with France for the mutual right tlemen of the House of Commons, who came there to of search. Was he the only person who thought that make a House, to keep a House, and cheer the Ministers, the mutual right of search was essential to the suppres were the only persons to conduct naval matters ? He sion of the slave trade? The first authority to which he only found fault with the construction of the 90-gun would refer was one at the time of 1814, at the con ships and all the small ships, the 44-gun ships and the elusion of the war. The Noble Lord then read an ex • 59-gun ships, which were good fur nothing ; and the tract from a dispatch from Lord Castlereagh to the Duke sloops of war the Gallant Admiral knew, as well as he of Wellington in 1814, in which the necessity and im did, were good for nothing. lie was not opposing those portance of prevailing upon France to establish a mutual small ships which were of such use as former occasions. right of search was set forth. So strongly at that When they came to blockade coasts and keep ships time was the importance of this measure felt, during winter, they found those small ships work well. that the Prince Regent, with the advice of his Ministers, He could not allow the Gallant Admiral to persuade the wrote a letter to the King of France, urging this point, House that the Penelope, that porpoise, was a good and expressing in the strongest terms his anxiety that steamer, for it was well known by the Captain that there the French Government would agree to the proposal was not an officer in her that had a dry jacket. The the Duke of Wellington was instructed to make. The Penelope, with steam, in a calm, would do very well, Duke of Wellington, on the 26th of August, 1814, made otherwise she had only 4 feet 11 inches out of the a proposal for a mutual right of search within the water, instead of six feet. There was not an officer that northern tropic, as far as longitude 25 from Greenwich, did not knew it. She was the most splendid man-of-war which was to the same extent as the treaties in the world when she had no coals in.—(Laughter.) then existing with Spain and Portugal. Upon Well, then, if she was the finest vessel in the world, why that note a conference with the plenipotentiaries not make Penelopes of all the men-of-war?—(Laughter.) of France, Austria, and Russia, was held. That That was another fact to which he would wish to call memorandum was transmitted to the respective the attention of the Gallant Admiral opposite. And Courts, but there was no answer to it till the conven now he came to the case of the Terrible, and he would Lion of Aix-la-Chapelle, in ISIS. A number of ques tell the Gallant Admiral that he was deceived about that tions had been sent to be answered, and they were of vessel ; she never was intended to carry guns astern at importance in this respect, that the answers to them all, for she could not carry them.—(Hear, hear.) It showed that the slave trade was in those times accom was true that many improvements had been made in her; raided with as many horrors and excesses as it was at but the best thing the Admiralty could do in her regard the present, moment, contrary to the opinions of some would be to correct in the vessels now in progress who thought that the measures adopted with regard to of building the errors made in the Terrible.-- the slave. trade had increased its cruelty and harshness. (Hear, hear.) One of her defects was that On the 29th of September, 1822. the Duke of Welling her ports were only 4 feet llf inches out of ton wrote to Mr. Canning from Paris. In that memoran the water, and the consequence was, her engines su nk dum he stated, that the slave trade was carried on her much too low. Then, with regard to the Penelope, generally under the flag of France, for the obvious rea• of which he had been speaking—why, in fact, half the son that France was the only one of the great maritime power of the engines of that vessel was lost owing to her Powers of Europe which had not entered into the tree defective construction.—(Hear, hear.) Another matter ties concluded with his Britannic Majesty, and the other he had to mention was one which was really p rovo ki ng powers had too much respect for the flag of France to to a degree to think of—(Hear, hear)—and there were a seize those vessels which sailed under it. The Duke of great many Hon. and Gallant Members present, at both Wellington went on to say, that endeavours had been sides of the House, whose concurrence in his views on made to introduce improvements with respect to Spain those points delighted him, end they had come forward and the Netherlands, but no improvements could be to bear him out in a manner that did him credit.— carried into effect as long as a contraband trade was (Hear.) The House had already heard, from the Mediter- carried on under so respectable a flag as that of France. ranean, that there was a feeling in favour of the Queen. The memorandum had been sent to the Congress of Now he had not the reports with him in reference to this Verona in November 1822, but the Congress separated ship ; but he had read it to the House before, and a most with a vague expression of their desire to see an end amusing report it was—(A laugh)—for the answer to put to the slave trade. Now he (Lord Palmerston) every question in the report was—" Not tried."—(A would say that no man of proper understanding could laugh.) One question was—" How did she ride at doubt, even if there was no authority to prove it, that it anchor?" and the answer was—" Not tried." Of course was absolutely impossible, unless there was a mutual she had not, for she had been moored at Malta harbour right of search, to put an end to the slave trade— all the time.—(A laugh.) Then, there was the Culling- (Cheers)—and that the conduct of the Government, in wood. In respect to that vessel, all he would say was, having virtually given up the mutual right of search with that if her construction had not gone too far, he would France, was quite inconsistent with all their declarations, strongly recommend that she should be bnilt upon the the consequence of which they now found to be the plan of the Vanguard, which was admitted to be a well- augmentation of their navy. He confessed the declare constructed ship.—(Hear, hear.) Ile understood that tions made by the Government with regard to the slave such a mistake had been made, in regard to the Tremen- trade were calculated to excite the most painful feelings dous, that she was now about to be cut down, without in the minds of those who heard them. But perhaps it the least compunction.—(Laughter.) Under these cir- might be said his alarms were unfounded, because of cumstances, he felt bound to bring forward this subject the result that might be expected from the labours of the before the House, and not lose the opportunity of doing Commission, that Commission being composed of two so, however much he might regret the cause that corn- distinguished mon, who enjoyed the highest possible pelled him to do so. reputation. He could place no confidence in men placed Sir G. COCKBURN hoped he had said nothing that in their position, for they could only come to one result. the Hon. and Gallant Officer could find fault with in If, indeed, they were asked to consult upon some means regard to himself personally. With regard to the st a te- in addition to the right of search, for the suppres ments he (Sir G. Cockburn) had made, all he could say sion of the slave trade, he could place confidence in was, that he had given his authorities for those state- their labours, because they could say nothing more ments, and the Gallant Officer had contradicted them; was to be done. But in Lord Aberdeen's dispatch it but he (Sir G. Cockburn) could not see what good could was said that the right of search treaty was result from asserting and contradicting in that way. suspended in the meantime, and once suspended Mr. lIUME did not intend to oppose the present pro. by the mutual consent of the two Powers, it could not position, though he did consider it a large one; but he be revived again without their consent. And to make it did hope that her Majesty's Government would not lose more humiliating to this country it seemed that the pro sight of the claims of meritorious officers in the contem. position for its suspension was made a condition imposed plated promotions.—(Hear, hear.) He also hoped that by France upon England.—(Hear, hear.) It was in some system of regulation would be adopted in regard deed painful to see two individuals of such distinguished to those promotions, for it was the only country in character compelled to do work so little worthy. Of Europe that had not some such regulation. lie had the reputation they had hitherto maintained he could received many letters from very deserving and merito- only say that if the Government pursued the course rious officers who complained of being put aside, al- they seemed determined on pursuing, an enormous in though they wished to continue in the service, and crease of the slave trade must be the manifest. result. young men put in their place.—(Hear, hear.) On these Looking at the returns he saw that there was a grounds he did hope that something like a rule would narked increase in the number of slaves landed be adopted in making promotions, and that it would no on the continent and islands of America longer be said by the Government, as an excuse for un- since they had left office ; and, though it had been said just promotions, that there were some younger members that this was owing to the exertions of General Valdez, of the aristocracy for whom they should provide. and sonic sudden changes in the Government of Brazil, Lord PALMERSTON said he had a few observations and also that some assistance was afforded by the to make upon this question. The navy was at all times Governments of Cuba and Rio, yet, without denying that the most important branch of the service of this country, these causes o; crated in a slight d grce, be maintained but it never was more peculiarly so than it was at the it was owing much more to the measures which the present period.—(Hear, hear.) Without adverting to late Government adopted, with respect to the Portuguese events which had happened, or which might happen at vessels, both north and south of the line, and the mea no distant period, he did think that enough had sures they adopted with regard to the baracoons on the transpired and taken place between this coun- coast of Africa, both of which caused the Brazil, Spauish try and foreign countries to convince the and Portuguese capital to he withdrawn from the slave British Government, that they should turn their most traffic. He did not wi-h to throw blame on any one ; serious attention to the state of their naval defence, but he believed the traffic had lately increased. with a view to place it in the most efficient state polsible. lie should be curious to see the returns. If the Govern -(Hear, hear.) When first the present Governmenacame meet persisted in their plan of relinquishing the mutual into power, they flattered themselves, that by making right of search, there must be an enormous increase of certain concessions and acquiescencies to the wishes of the estimates of the navy ; and, if they looked to what certain foreign Powers, they would be able to sustain their passed, it was curious to see how the Government, in friendly relations with them, as far as regarded their na- dealing with foreign Powers, were led on from one step val and military establishment ; but he (Lord Palmerston) downwards to another.—(Hear, hear.) What passed conceived they had gone too far in making these eonces- w ith respect to this particular commission ? M. Guizot, sions, and what was the result ? According to what who had negotiated the treaty of the right of search in had transpired within the last few mouths, in the decla- this country, was an ardent supporter of the treaty. He rations of the King of the French and the Queen of authorised his ambassador in London to sign it, but in England, it appeared that this country had, within a six weeks afterwards he turned round and refused to very short period, been on the verge of a serious rupture ratify it, which, he must say, was a breach of national with France. Then,_ they had heard enough of the usage and of good faith.—(Hear, hear.) And thi s state of the United States of America to impress upon was done without any remonstrance ; but the the Government of this country, the fact that it would French Chambers, encouraged by that, demanded of be impossible to rate too highly the value and import- M. Guizot that he should ask to have the treaties of ance of having their naval force in the most efficient 1831 and 1833 cancelled. What was the reply of M. state possible.—(Hear, hear.) Consideringalso that En- Guizot ? He said, " Ilow can you ask me to cancel land was possessed of colonies whose value was of such existing treaties ? Why, what would b e th e conse importance to them that their naval force could not be quence ? I shall be met by a distinct refusal on the in a state too efficient to defend them.—(Hear, hear.) part of the English Cabinet, and will you ask of me to The first point, then, they had to consider was, as to the submit my country to a direct refusal, which would be number of ships they had, the number they had in an an insult to her.' That answer was accepted by the efficient state, and their different qualifications.— French Chambers, but M. Guizot soon found that he was (Hear.) Ha had heard the Gallant Officer near him entirely mistaken in the men whom he had to deal with. speak upon this subject, and it evidently ap- Then there came other things ; there came the Ash peared that he was much more capable of express- burton capitulation and the dealings with Spain, which ing an opinion upon it thaa he (Lord P.) was. led M. Guizot to see that he was dealing with persona He thought the discussion of that evening had shown, who—to use a phrase of his lion. Friend the Member for if it had been doubted before, that they were come to a Finsbury-- e " were made of very squeezable materials." pass, at which it was expedient that the Government M. Guizot then said to the French Chambers, " Well, I should call in science to the aid of practice, with regard have been thinking these twelvemonths on this subject, to the construction of ships, because it was all very well and now I think that these negotiations may not be so. for the Right Hon. and Gallant Admiral to say, as he hopeless as I thought they were last year, and that, by had that night, that in the last war we had ships that doing so, I will not expose my country to such a d ec id e d were regarded as of a clumsy and unsatisfactory de- and perempt or y refusal ; ' and M. Guizot judged rightly acription, but that with these ships our sailors had sailed of the men with whom he had to deal. The negotiations. after and overtaken the enemy, and defeated a superior were entered upon, and M. Guizot had been successful. force. But this was not a proof that our ships were The Government of this country, out of compliance to good. It only proved that our sailors were expert and a foreign Government, and to rattihtain as they thought skilful, and that with inferior ships they had triumphed one foreign Minister in power laix months longer than over the enemy. The French ships that were taken, he otherwise might rtt;in it, and to catch for when they came into our service, were admitted to be him a few vole'', on a narrow division, sacrificed very superior to our own ships by which they had been all those pritnples which this country, the nation, and overcome. This, therefore, only proved the superiority Parli'..".iient had for years held as most sacred, and of our sailors over those opposed to them. It was well were goingto bring upon the innocent and unoffending in known to persons at all acquainted with the matt,:-,. that habitants of Africa an increase of those horrors which no problem in science or mathematics w", more diffi- must necessarily accompany the slave-trade.—([?ear, cult to solve than that respecting tte construction of a hear.) He could only say if they pursued that course it ship destined for the purpose!, of a war. It was not very would be difficult for men to determine, and he would easy for the most skilful mathematician to tell what leave it to them to choose whether they would be guilty form a solid body sheald he in order to be best adapted either of most miserable weakness, or most hateful and to go rapidly through a fluid. It was not very easy detestable hypocrisy.—(Cheers.) beforehand to say what would be the floating line of Sir R. PEEL said that he would fast address himself it ship not launched. It was not very easy to tell before- to what had fallen from the Hon. and Gallant Officer hand what construction would give the greatest steadi- opposite. He regretted that the Hon. and Gallant Offi ness to a ship. Mere practical men could not do this, cer had been prevented from making his motion and the man of science, in giving an opinion upon these in the manner lie himself wished (Hear) but points, must take into his consideration the principles of he had an opportunity of making his speech stowage, and in thi s , o f course , h e would require the as- and lie could not help thinking that the result would not sistance of the practical seaman. They had been told be very different if he had made the motion in the that the Admiralty were trying the experiment of em- manner he intended. The Noble Lord said that he con ploying two or three men—one man to build three ships, curred with the Gallant Officer in the opinion that and another four, and S 9 on. That was very science ought to be called in aid of practical experi ence praiseworthy, as f a r as it went, and it un- in rea ect to naval improvements. He (Sir R. Peel) doubtedly show e d a grea t desire to improve concurred in that sentiment; but the question was who and perfect th e construction of ships of war. should be the presiding authority when science was But, with all deference to the Admiralty, he did not called in aid of practical e x p erience. The Gallant held them altogether to be p ossesse d o f that scientific Officer proposed a Committee , b ut he (Sir Robert Knowledge which was a necessary element of this sub- Peel) must say that the Board of Admiralty wa s ject, and, therefore, they ought to call in the aid of the proper tribunal to conduct an inquiry of scientific men, and also the experience of practical nen. that kind, and to decide up on its results. lie —(Hear, hear.) lie thought this would involve a very could conceive no advantage in superseding the au. trifling expense, while it would be the means of approach- thority of the Board of Admiralty, by making them su ing to certainty with respect to the principle of con- bordinate to the au thority of the Commis s i on sought to structing ships. Undoubtedly, the class of ships which be established. He apprehended that th e B oar d of Ad peculiarly required the attention of the Government was miralty took the course which the Hon. and Gallant the steam-ships. It was quite evident that the Officer opposite recommended the C omm i ss i on composed construction of their ships required great improvement. of naval officers to take. It did a va il i tse lf o f t h e assist- The Right Hon. Baronet had said that we were placed ance of men __distinguished for sc i ence an d f or practical on a satisfactory footing in this respect, as compared knowledge. If this Commissi on was appo i nted, a dis with other countries ; that our horse-power of steam, trust in the present B oar d o f Ad m i ralty would be clearly, as compared with the horse-power of our nearest-neigh- implied, and there c ou ld b e no d ou b t but both Boards boor, was in the ratio of three to two. Ho did not would come into collision in a manner which would be think that was altogether a satisfactory statement, as far from serviceable to the country. lie did not object the Right Hon. Baronet had omitted to state what was to the course which the lion. and Gallant Officer had tho proportion of the vessels, which was a material taken as to the propriety of calling in the aid of men of point of consideration. Now there was another branch of science. When they looked to the immense sums of this subject which his Hon.andGallantFriend had intended money expended in the building of ships, he must consi to bring under the consideration of the House, but whie% der it of the utmost importance that any experiment for he had purposely abstained from touching on that night, improving the construction of vessels should be fairly because the subject was too large to be treated inei- tested. What he con t en ded for was, that as the Board dentally, and some more fitting occasion would present of Admiralty was responsible for the expenses of the navy, itself for bringing it forward. He (Lord Palmerston) its authority ought to be enforced, and they should be meant that part of the motion which referred to the entrusted with the conduct of experiments. Why the defence of our dockyards and protection of our co as t s . B oar d h a d contemplated these experiments by calling That was a most important subject, and he w ou ld not f or an additional number of seamen for, otherwise, those anticipate what his Hon. and Gall an t Friend might say experiments could not be made. If the e navy ...as re uponmor e lt urgently, but h e required believed theth t serious t h cr en wasattnto no subject of the Go- national which duc ti e o d na to l s t a h f e ety b , a t r h e es n e u t m ria b l e s r co o l f ild men not consistentHisw Right ith the vernment and of that House. There was one other lion. Friend at the head of the Admiralty expressed point connected with this subject which he could not re- himself entirely of the same opinion with the Gallant frain from saying a few w or d s upon . li e d i d not at all Officer opposite in this respect, and even invited agree with Hon. Gentlem e n who found fault with the the assistance of the Gallant Commodore, and offered to amount of the force, nor did he require any further ex- place at his disposal a steam-vessel, which his great planation from the Government to justify the increase naval knowledge and experience would enable him to they had m a d e. li e would, however offer a few words upon superintend.—(llear, hear, and cheers.) the augment a ti on o f t h e f orce, at the stations on the Sir C. NAPIER--I have been applying these twenty coast of Af r i ca f or the suppression of the slave trade. years for it. Now, he should most cheerfully concur in any reason- Sir B. PEEL—And the Gallant Officer has now, from able augme n t a ti on o f f uroe f or so great an object, but a Boar d o f Ad m i ra l ty com p ose d of men of adverse he must even that there did appear to him a great and politics, obtained now what he fruitlessly, sought for manifest inconsistency between the proposal which the during twenty years.—(llear, hear.) Could anything Government now made and the language which they be a stronger proof of the proper constitution of held on the subject of le slave trade. He might say the present Board of Admiralty ?—(Hear, hear.) The witllnut eeaggeraeion, that the present Government had Board was presided ow r by the most distinguished turned out their predecessors on the question of the slave member of the naval profession.—(Hear, hear.) The trade. It w as th e di v i s i on on the great sugar debate, Gallant Officer said that Board was formed from party which had caused their accession to office, and on that considerations, and that if there was a change of Act occasion they h a d said that to admit Brazilian sugar ministration he might be a member of the Board of would be impious, as it would only have the effect of en- Admiralty. Well lee (Sir it. Teel) would think the couraging the sla ve trad e . What had happened ? The choice a judicious one. The Hon. and Gallant Officer very first thing they did after coming into power was to might speak of his friends beside him, but surely a. ratify a treaty for the suppression of the slave trade,, and laoutel of which such men as Admiral Gage and the Hone