The Sun. — London, England, 1844-02-15 00:00:00

r. for the ,n, Who hiltera ronere read up. the stating lot for a gainst ?rough ling to iePart' Ige n°. • ,nea r ,rsonal - &use , t 1:1 014 on the Fustice iubec : e ( Sir is a , ed by n that putt of as the so ne' Ite e, b e .7tieg °se ct sc." ie - ' f riar to the Legislature. Parliament had, for some tears Past,shown a disposition to alter the law, so far as h a ve any remedy to a common informer. As far as 1806, informers had been deprived of power to hilg an action in the Excise department. There was i t t , eonstitutional authority to show that this was no '"coon of justice. In 1814 a Bill was brought in to tllalt certain actions brought against certain members of e clergy. On that occasion Lord Eldon sail, "It h e certainly a delicate proceeding, but it had made the practice in all times; when an informer these against whom he was proceeding." He ap- Znended that the case before the House must rest a " . , on the moral culpabilities of those who were ti, but on the vexatious nature of the actions. He 441. ascertained that actions had been commenced thetwenty-one parties, and that the penalties th: a ated to nearly half a million of money. One of partie s was the Earl of Eglintoun, another Mr. t"hreereetorex, a third Lord George Bentinck, who was 011 to answer for himself, and did not at Anl2Pear ashamed of his position.—(Laughter.) g,t, those gentlemen was one who had formerly G e bee n a Member of that House, and for whom Hon. re ,,tlenien on the other side had, no doubt, a very great h e - Net—he meant Mr. John Gully, the late Mem ‘,er for Pontefract. Some Honourable Members e tt ii r p e ,' no doubt, aware of the practice that was th e " hed g i rkg ," w hi c h meant betting both ways, and 1 5 ; t a lischief of these actions was, that, if a man bet and pe n l °°/•, and by a counter bet recovered 991., • the tai ""tees were fixed not upon the IL that had been ac thellY lost, but upon the 1001. which had been lost in lan first instance, and hence the enormous ti ee °l 2ts for which the action for these penal to tk "as brought. One of the grounds of opposition ftt "e Bill was that it was said there would be no inter (4/ace if the parties interested were not rich men.— ear, h er " from Mr. Hume.) The Hon. Member for lasbury said hear. Hear, DUNCOMBE—I am not talking to you. ( r l ', 'T. S. WORTLEY—Somebody then spoke, and It or ,,Lr• Wortley) now asked the Hon; Gentleman for th e - ;" r ose (Mr. Hume) would Mr. Russell bring 1 1 , " e actions against a poor man ? What -would L, n get by it ?—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial' paste d )ziel ehe • The parties who brought these actions the rich,. because it best suited their r Pose so to do. Thi s h e t rus t e d wou ld be h'risidered as an answer to that objection. He h:P e d that the House would agree to the Bill ; and th wo uld not have ventured to introduce it, but that he t a c laght it was important not merely to the individuals, itto the p u bli c. —(H ear , h ear .) th e li t • 1 1 . . GIBSON said that there was no necessity for I:4tt 2 11 . Gentleman to apologise for the time which i ' occupied in bringing forward his motion. The. p ep t,"lved considerations of the most important kind telh - " a Ps, as the Hon. Gentleman had said, important Wheen i ndividuals, but certainly important to the public. Ao tt the Hon. Gentleman proposed to enact an ex 4 4ti Jacto law, to relieve those who hail violated the law, v el , v t o withdraw , protection from those who obeyed it, a bee'a sa tisfactory explanation of his reasons must have the „"Peeted and required. In proposing to the House it a ; al endment which he (Mr. Gibson) had risen to move, IL,'" necessary for him to state, that he thought the l'h; t had nothing to do with the character of the parties. Ni r ruse ought to dismiss the question of character thi a :l from its consideration—they ought to have no- R t e. whatever to do with considerations of character or ai44in such a matter as this. To allow such con- NZAU to influence them was to legislate, not on tees and for principles, but from personal motives, had*lmst personal ends. The Hon. Gentleman at% introduced the Bill had, in fact, given the Pers reason possible why he (Mr. Gibson) should the r e re in his amendment.—(Hear,) He said lei re it a w affecting these subjects was so bad, that it m e „,' revision altogether. He did not, however, tell 4t . g,what might be the effect of looking carefully and tarn ki ngly into the effects of these laws. It ;might Boas out, a f ter i nqu i ry by a Committee of the pi a . e, that the Legislature might still maintain the 1 , () A that this very position of -the law it would the case,- to maintain. And should this be tilev -sse, as very likely it might be, they would, if viu[ v . Consented to this Bill, be saving, those who ki t teed the law by a sort of parenthesis. The House aoiv Lreport it to be desirable that certain penalties e (Vaebed to acts of gaming should still be retained. l e Zr• Gibson) had heard that people on the other and r obe very f on d o f trying 'to make the nation moral 1-4;:"gious by Act of Parliament--(Loud cries of hear")--and he, therefore would not, if he 'Slls e „,u,elP it, allow great men, and rich men, and „,, l ‘itl e i; '"al men, to escape the infliction of laws , they had made for other people.—(Cheers.) qs:Z„ t night ask them to suspend the actions, but not to pe ud 'tinue the law ; but the actions were not to be sus edd, they-were to be put an end to altogether. Now in 4 not believe there was so much ignorance prevail %Atli:A) the existing law respecting gaming as the Hon. 4 t er n mall seemed to think ; on the contrary, scarcely 'iles e — Passed in which actions were not brought under fises of Charles and Anne. r. W ORTLEY—There has not been a single action. GIBBON—Wait till you have heard the other side. brou,l,W, for has not been any action • cr. =or horse-racing. dts itiv c GIBBON--Really they could not sit there to a tithi distinetio ns of this kind. The Acts were levelled s e L tili47't wiling in general, and not against any parti ae ti,,,, a P°rt. But that it wou ld ' be occupying `tatt it -- " e of the House, he would move'. that this Th e 2 , be rea d b y the clerk' - the table. sire of of Charles was to prevent deceitful and exces ettur,r,,,,nli2. There were certain, pastimes and games ka k i ;r ate in that Act, and amongst those games and tionisfnes h orse-racing was named. There could be no hb, ,, ‘ that that Act, which was meant ;to apply to to t th7; i e n g, applied also to horse-racing, He though that p„_,. who supported this Bill in the other House of 8 111 at m must have been= when they called this p in re e sent before the House a tho:ltetts2 ev. pastime Bill." This was an absurd ground "manly • sport and a r fight R . Prelates to take for supporting the r`lt'him _ in mind of the lines Great men may jest with saints, 'tia witin then], • ....{gut with th e l ess foul profanation. " Kean,l44 h ear.) Qui tam actions it was well known th,„ n often brought before for small penalties, yet li o f,_never befor e h ear d of a gentleman go i ng to t h at Th e " l 7, and asking for a Bill of Indemnity.—(Hear, hear.) 14 1 7 , had been numerous cases i n w hi c h qu i tam ac ti ons ast a ,„ e ell brought of late years. In 1816, a person Rill had been prosecuted; in 1827, a person named p e :n had b roug h t a qu i t am ac ti on f o r gambling against It so n 6 named Taylor. That case was a remakable one. 41 1a q' attracted the general attention of the country. e rr ,, b een brought b e f or e the House of Lords by writ .rld e ,, -r, Yet no one h a d t h oug ht o f introducing a Bill of --nity • If gi s i the law was not what it ought to be, the The st are had no one to thank for it bu s t themselves. the Y had invited informers to take upon themselves uses cd , 'nal and the expense of prosecuting those e f and. they had a right to complain if the ts a r re attempted to deprive them of those vested i ll p oi r y le o ll f had_ bestowed upon them. It had been of °r ole the Legislature which had * held out to the iseilftioaa.r the advantages which had given rise to these or tger as it justice now to interfere to deprive the no t of his vested interest ?—(Hear, hear.) Would the De te nd to lower the character of the Legislature with fri e pie . ? nds Would it not be said that all those who had ls w h igh stations could suspend the operation of i a%e t h"eollId have Bill s o f I n d em nity introduced to re nearrept from the liability to penalties which they had L 414%. ;in the y ear 1842 qu i tam a ctions had been brought 17rned-Vrovisions of this very clause against a person thosrnd—actions of a precisely similar character b t . t 4 be e ,. li nw under discussion.—(Cheers.) The law rte , allowed to take its course. The plaintiff k here ,!_ v ered the full amount •of the penalties. ot i r tted "as no insinuation _ that Bond had per. OM % unfair play, but merely that he had t he did con this particular so tstatue.—(Hear, hear.) - par sider that Bond was much to blame as V s 'e w as " who supported his establishment.—(Cheers.) ; 6 7 de not so much to blame for the supplying s t 4 d 4 1 : 11da of those who were supposed to be tlttiat elevated situations for the purpose of t i7rns e l v al l; example to the people, as those parties 141,;93.iii of He felt bound to oppose the passing passed 147, gin g the lndemnity un/11 . he had a resolution pass_ l it r e l it . noll se to appoint a Committee to revise the k h , e nlb er ~1 , 1 31 3 to gambling. The pledge of a single '``' a wa s not sufficient. They had got them now thPecorner o ut , and it would not be right to let them e nt a kset ve of their difficulty, until they had pledged e, 14 ,4 to revise the law generally. He, there the Prop oa „,Press the resolution which he intended as an amendment to the motion of 1 1,444. woz dutti and Learned Gentleman to a division. It n e jou rna lke the liberty of quoting from a Conserve an article on the prosecution of Bond. The theresulte then read an extract from the Times of Wilici t Dec. " ec. 8 , 1842, expressing the satisfac conductors of that journal felt at N i t th e 'f the prosecution of Bonfl, and stating lteit„..'u,nntry was not indebted to the Attorney and lzn_e soe'Vie_nerals, nor to the Home Secretary, nor to t rati ont `..Y for the Prosecution of Vice, for that pro .til'ee.C„pinut7iiall those authorities seemed to consider that 11 1 , 11. jari a di ai ? atmosphere of St. James's was out of etio n . ma -line of , Luey were indebted for it to an artist of m w i a t . h s , and to an Act of the good old ) 3 : 14 the sreen ta Anne.—(Loud cheers.) That showed to perfectly well known. Bond had i l er otiity tend forced to leave the country. No Bill of at a 4 Pass e d ad been brought in for him ; no statute had itt 13 1, 1 . t to theta prevent the rich from setting a bad ex traiq'gh lir a Poor. Judge Blackstone said that gaming atthi e a ; it W d emanded the attention of the magis ratiott wased sacrificsioed, and which we seemed to have ilaci u t its de l s r e u r t i t our ancestors, the Germans, whom w_s_l4 ou ed as bewildered with the spirit of play. th zio e ll ,„ -M ero a b t e i r s eotae forwl)l9osite had proposed stringent Acts for t public morals, and they could not ard to protect those who had violated 0. statutes. to '7 cor a r ' h ear.) The Hon. Member said it was • re ire mon thin In Ire fr om g to come down to the House „Renalties parties who had violated exist tem. atis en .i n w lc. was quite aware that- circumstances vhotterfee; ' ell it was desirable for the Legislature ne.tual duties, t ile t l s be r e. eta rgy rded the case of Mr. Wright, P r esecuted for not attending to their 0! e had believed a more objectionable interfe viLtahat oe tt n oc d eurred. The present Lord Chancellor Lnittitetcelrtohne common informer. He dusted to tk e decides th:f public principles. They whether it 7 1 4 the utruZ 8 ease question simply upon the grounds oin w f h ad ieh op t t h in e Le ex gis s la tf tu a r c e t sh o ie o gi a . l s d .. al cours e takhreillinfev had e:restlinbmefuorset pledge .thems . g elves to revise the .. - .F.ead g i ven n t ley disco n A tm ll u t e h d e ythosepr oposed act i o w n a s a . o l e t ettltwups.,_it i s o s .s w i t _Powerful pledge. All from the operatic* aneveonbsa o f l e e w te d la ay w s . ag l o thad , aild Lord Chief Justice Denman had pronounced a judgment under it not a week past. Penalties from Bond had been recovered under it not long since. It was impossible to maintain the plea that had been urged of ignorance of these laws. They were suspected of not wishing to re peal obsolete statutes. How often had magistrates under obsolete statutes fined and imprisoned poor men, and yet no one heard of giving the aggrieved party any in demnity, or of repealing the statutes under which they were punished ? He would read for them extracts from the Reports of the Inspectors of Prisons. — (C ries of " Oh, oh. 1 ') A man, J. C., stated that he had been sentenced to pay a fine of one shilling, and 14s. costs, and because he was unable to pay these sums, he had been in prison for ten years.—(Hear, hear.) He had been summarily convicted before two magistrates for not attending Church on Sundays, and for not showing any reasonable cause for being absent. He was kept in prison until the fine was paid. Was there any leniency shown there — any Bill of Indemnity ? This law was admitted to be an antiquated law, but the man suffered.—(Hear, hear.) What had the Legislature done to abolish or modify those cruel laws ? Had they shown any disposition to bring in a Bill on the subject ? In 1839, it appeared from the same Report that several persons underwent imprisonment for trifling violations of the ecclesiastical law. One underwent 63 days' imprisonment, another 61, a third 16, a fourth 12, a fifth 17, a sixth 12, a seventh 26, an eighth 16, a ninth 27, and a tenth three days' imprisonment—(Hear, hear)—and when those people were released they were released on the payment of the fine and costs. The people believed that that House did not legislate ,for them, bat for themselves. They believed that those laws on horse-racing would not have been altered but that certain Hon. Members and Noble Lords were not interested in their continu ance. They were not altered for the general welfare of the community—they were obsolete and antiquated laws, and were something similar to those on which the late State prosecutions in Ireland were founded.— (Oh, oh.) No, the great bulk of the people, he repeated, were not aware that in attending those meetings they had been guilty of any offence, against the laws. The people of Ireland saw men high in station, legislators, ministers, contributing to public associations, and participating in public demonstrations. —(Hear, hear.) Why did not the Government prose cute the Anti-Corn-law League? They dared not prosecute the League.—(Hear, hear.) They used these antiquated statutes and unknown laws to serve their own purposes, and they had shown no disposition to administer justice without respect of persons.—(Hear, hear.) He would force his motion, and-he would see whether gentlemen opposite were prepared to take away the penalties upon all gambling—whether of the poor or the rich, or only upon those kinds of gambling in which their own class was concerned —(Hear. hear.) It would be wrong to deny that much had been done to repeal obnoxious statutes ; and especially in the laws relating to excise and customs, through the industry and sagaeity of Mr. Deacon Hume, hundreds of Acts of Parliament had been compressed into one small volume. But when the gentlemen opposite repealed the Acts inflicting the penalties for offences against the excise and custom laws, they did not suspend the qui tam actions. The actions were persevered in, and the penal ties were enforced. He was bound to pay this tribute to a distinguished public servant, Mr. Hume, not only for his writings on political economy, but for the activity with which he discharged the duties which had been officially entrusted to him.—(Hear, hear.) He would not allow this to be treated as an unimportant question. (Hear, hear.) Many of the gentlemen who had intro duced him into that House were deeply concerned in the gambling of the turf, but there were also many other of his constituents who thought that all kinds of betting were immoral, and ought to be put down. He was, therefore, placed in a difficult position ; but he would take the course which he con sidered to be right, without considering what might please any section of' his constituents. For many of these gentlemen he had a great respect, but if they were his own brothers, he would stand up in that House and resist any proposition for an ex post facto law to re lieve people of rank from the consequences of their trans gressions. —(Laughter.) He thought he should neglect his duty if he did not stand up and see that they legis lated equally for all classes of her Majesty's subjects. Before he sat down, he would make an appeal to the Government, for he presumed that this was a Cabinet question. -It had received the consideration of her Ma jesty's Ministers, and was sanctioned by them in the House of Lords—at least, none of them opposed it—and he thought he was entitled in a matter of such importance as the interference with proceedings in the courts of law, to have the deliberate opinion, not only of the Prime Minister, if he were in his place, but of the law-officers of the Crown. He thought he was entitled especially to have the opinion of the At torney-General as to what he thought was the justice of the case, when so many others had paid penalties for similar transgressions of the law. He conceived that they were entitled to the deliberate opinion of her Ma jesty's Government, whether they approved of a measure like this, which permitted an ex post facto law to ride over the ancient enactments of our code. He said that those who were occupying the benches opposite, and to whom attached the responsibility , of administering the laws of. the country, were bound to say whether they were in favour or not of this sudden and partial altera tion of the law.—(Cries of "Hear, hear," and " Oh.") For it would not do for them to let this measure pass quietly, and then pretend to the country that they were not in favour of gaming—they must not set up that character without any notice being taken of this measure, by them. He deeply regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir B. Peel) was not present on that most important occa sion.—(Laughter on the Ministerial benches, answered by cheers from the Opposition.) Yes, it was on an oc casion like the present that they wanted the assistance of a man like him, who had great experience, to guide them in all their proceedings, and who had also influence enough with his party to make them do that which he might think the most _proper and just. He said that in not being present on that occasion the Right Hon. Baronet was neglecting his duty.—(Laughter from the Treasury benches.) Why he guided his party ; they all, of them opposite followed him in the most docile manner.—(Great cheering and uproar.) He could make them pass this law, or throw it out, by his individual dictum.—(Great cheering from the Opposition.) When, therefore, the Right Hon. Ba ronet chose to assume such an immense responsibility as he did in guiding the party which had to make the laws for the country, surely to allow it to be sup posed that he shrank from his duty from an aversion to offend the prejudices of his friends, was not exactly commendable conduct.—(Hear, hear.) He re gretted also to observe the absence upon this occasion of all those Hon. Members who arrogated to themselves the guardianship of the morals and religion of the country.—(Cheers.). He did not choose to impute in tentions, but he could not refrain from saying, that it was a remarkable coincidence that upon a question so important to the morals of the country there should not be present in the House any of those Ho nourable Members who, when the poor were to be schooled, when they were to be legislated into all sorts of virtuous and pious habits, were most promi nent in that labour.—(Cheers.) Those remarkable coin cidences certainly happened to all men—they had hap pened to himself sometimes.—KA laugh.) In conclusion he begged to say, that in his. opinion the House ought not to have been called upon to consider a Manly Sports Bill, and the liabilities any indulgence in betting on those sports subjected individuals to; nor the question whether they ought to protect those who had violated the law to the injury of those who had not. If the attention of the House was to be called to the subject at all, it ought to be to the whole subject—with reference to the future, and not to the past. And therefore, enter taining strongly these opinions, he felt called upon to move, as an amendment to the motion, " That this House is of opinion, that if Parliament think fit to interfere for the purpose .of staying legal proceedings which have been commenced under the sanction and authority of existing statutes, upon the ground that such statutes have become either obsolete, or that they ought not to be enforced, it is incumbent upon the Legislature to define some rule by which her Majesty's subjects may be able to ascertain those laws which are considered to have become obselete, or those to which obedience will not be required. That a Select Committee be appointed, to inquire into the existing statutes against gaming of every kind, and what penalties are enacted by such sta tutes, and whether the same, or any and what parts of such statutes have fallen into desuetude, or ought to be repealed." Lord J. MANNERS said the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had not only been the advocate of one side in this particular question, but had also been the advocate of one Hon. Member who was not present to speak for himself. The Hon. Gentleman said that he had no guarantee that the House, if it consented to this Bill, would not still sanction the imposition of penalties on gambling ; thus, persons might hereafter be prose cuted for offences under. the Act, while persons who had already offended could be relieved from the conse quences of their illegal acts. But it must be recollected that these offences had been committed inadvertently. l'he class of persons who were considered as tribunes of the people did not deserve the confidence, of the people. He wished all those distinctions which had been created by obsolete statutes between the rich and the poor - ab rogated altogether. It should, however, be recollected, that the public attention had been just directed to the case of the person imprisoned for not attending church, by his Hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract. The law under which that person had suffered was the rem nant of a wise and consistent system of legislation — (Hear)—which had been abrogated by the political an cestors of the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—(lronical cheers.) It was partly a system by which, after the poor people had attended the parish church, on the Sunday, they were permitted to indulge in manly sports and recreations during the rest of the day. The po litical ancestors of Hon. Gentlemen opposite had re tained the odious part of the law, imposing the penalty, but had abrogated the cheerful part of it. He should support the Bill.—(Cheers.) Captain BERKELEY agreed with a great deal of what had fallen from thelion. and Learned Gentleman who introduced this Bill. But he wished the House would pause before it attempted to legislate on this sub ject. The present system of horse-racing was fraught with dishonesty and trickery. It was not the best horse that always won. There was a system called PP betting in existence which had been productive of the most mis chievous effects. He thought the better course for the House to pursue would be to stay for a period the pend ing actions, and in the meantime to take the whole subject of gambling into its consideration. If that course were pursued he should be prepared to vote with the Hon. Gentleman opposite, but sooner than lend himself in any way to the continuance of the present dishonest practices in horse-racing he would vote with the Hon. Member behind him (Mr. Gibson). It was a very com mon saying that he who went upon the turf without a determination to be a rogue was next akin to a fool.— (Cheers and laughter.) If the rules of the House would' permit him, he (Captain Berkeley) would move that this debate be adjourned, in order that they might proceed with the debate on Irish affairs. Mr. M.MlLNESthought that Hon. Gentlemen oppo site might agree to this Bill, which was one simply to relieve parties from enormous penalties which they had unwittingly incurred, and they could still have the Com mittee for which the Hon. Member for Manchester he.d moved. Mr. VERNON SMITH did not think a sufficient case had been made out for the House of Commons to enter- tain this question. He did not think that the allegations in the preamble of the Bill had been made out. He thought the proper course the Hon. Gentleman opposite ought to have pursued, would have been to have moved for the production of the Report of the Select Commit tee appointed by the other House of Parliament, to in quire into the subject. He thought without this a suf ficient case had not been made out in favour of those in whose behalf this Bill had been introduced. Colonel PEEL could say that he knew that many of those persons conscientiously believei that, in making bets upon horse-racifig, they were committing no offence. They believed, and he understood that this belief was borne out by the opinion of counsel, that bets made on the turf were legal. He himself had not been served with any notice of action (he had no doubt that he should be), but if he were to be summoned to give evidence in any the trials, as to what bets he had made, he ques- tinned whether a judge would caution him that in giving such evidence, he was making a case against himself. He thought the preamble of the Bill had been fully borne out, and he for one could say that he had always con scientiously believed that bets on the turf were legal. Mr. HUME said that if the opinion of counsel had been taken upon this matter, there was no necessity for this Bill, inasmuch as from what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that opinion was in favour of the legality of the bets. He thought the best plan in this case would be to suspend the pending actions for three, months, in order that the subject might be well considered. The present Bill gave power to any person against whom actions for penalties for gambling were brought, to call upon a judge to dismiss the case with costs. He did not think they were in a position to grant this. He thought they ought to agree to the adjournment of the debate, as he thought that on a subject of such importance the presence of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Govern ment was absolutely necessary. This was a gambling Bill, and indirectly promoted and protected gambling. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that if the Right Hon. Gentleman looked more closely to the clauses of the Bill, that provision was expressly made for the point to which he referred. The operation .of the Act was not to extend beyond the space of three months, and any proceedings at law would be stayed. Mr. HUME—Yes, after the lapse of three months. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL--Just so. Although by this Bill the pending cases would be discontinued, there was nothing to prevent the actions being brought afresh unless they were quashed by the Legislature. When the Bill went into Committee the Hon. Gentleman must move for the insertion of the word " suspend" in stead of "discontinue," which he apprehended would answer all his purposes.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for Manchester talked about this Bill disregarding the poor, and having reference only to the amusements of the rich. He did not know what particular section of the House the Hon. Member meant by " you," or whe ther he meant to allude to any particular Member. For his own part, he (the Attorney-General) would say that he had never been behindhand in evincing sympathy for the poor, or in protecting their privileges. There was no Hon. Member more ready or willing than he was to abolish obsolete Acts, through which the people might unwittingly have offended against the laws. ,He hoped the Bill would be allowed to go into Committee. After a few words from Mr. C. BERKELEY, the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion Against it Majority On our admission to the Gallery, we found the House discussing the propriety of going into Committee on the Bill. That discussion having been concluded, the Bill was ordered to be committed on Wednesday next. Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to ask what was the intention of the Government as to public business. Did they intend that the important motion he had brought for Ward should be proceeded with that night, or that other business that had been put upon the paper, espe cially that of the Hon. Member for Montrose, should be proceeded with in preference? Sir J. GRAHAM said that it was the intention of the Government to give precedence to the adjourned debate on the Irish question,—(Hear.) IRELAND.—THE ADJOURNED DEBATE. Lord LEVESON then rose to address the House. He believed that in the speech of the. Noble Lord last night those great principles were contained, on which Ireland alone could be properly governed.:---(Hear, hear.) He wished to see liberal principles infused into Ireland. —(Hear)—for it was impossible to deny that the peaec of Ireland had been kept up lately by military force.— (Hear.) He hoped they would never continue the go vernment by such means.—(Hear, hear.) Had, he would ask, the government of Ireland been conducted properly ?—(Hear.) Why the first offices of the State had been given to men whose principles and whose politics were not congenial to the people of Ireland.— What had been the case at the late trial ? Why, they had been tried before four Protestant judges, by a jury of twelve Orangemen.—(Hear.) Was it be wondered at that the people of Ireland should feel some exaspera tion at this ?—(Cheers.) The Established Church' had not prospered, in consequence, in his opinion, of the protection it had received from the State. It did not do its duty if it performed nothing for the education of the people.--(Hear, hear.) He considered that many per sons thought too much of the protection of the State. Whoever travelled through France, Belgium, and the North of Germany, must perceive the difference which existed between those countries and England, owing to this exclusive protection. After trespassing so much on the time of the House, he could not do better than conclude with the words of one of the most eloquent men who ever sat in this House. Mr. Brougham, now Lord Brougham, cautioned the House to beware how they converted discontent into rage ; how they encou raged discontent to' rage with new weapons. They alone were responsible if, through their opposition, Ireland was torn from the mother country.—(Cheers.) Mr. B. COCHRANE said he had listened with the greatest pleasure to the speech of the Noble Lord. The evils which afflicted Ireland had been attributed to many causes ; to the existence of the Church, the union, the state of the suffrage, and ether sources, but, in his opinion, none of them was the real evil. The real evil they had to deal with, was the great physical misery which existed in the country. The resources of the country were great, yet the country was, fur 300 years, in a state of wretchedness and disaffection. With regard to the Church it was universally known that the Catholic clergy would refuse a provision from the State, and at a late meeting of the Roman Catholics of Eng land, Lord Camoys, who. presided at that meeting, was reported to have said that he entirely concurred in the propriety of the decision come to by the Irish Roman Catholic Bishops. They could do no thing then, in that direction, for the benefit of Ireland. If the Noble Lord wished to appropriate a part of the revenues of the Established Church, he did not knew how it could be received by the Roman Catholics, after their late declaration to refuse a State provision. He was kindly disposed towards the people of Ireland, and towards their religion. He was of opinion that a su perior class of persons ought to be educated for the Ro man Catholic Church in Ireland. The evil of the coun try was ; its misery, and when they considered the phy sical wants which the people of that country endured it was not to be wondered at that they complained.— (Hear, hear.) people in their situation could not reason ; they could Only complain. He hoped, there• fore, that some measure would be introduced to ame. liorate the social condition of the people. The Hon Gentleman then referred to the report of the Railroad Commission to show the state of the country, and that the greatest benefits would result if the waste lands were reclaimed.—(Hear, hear.) Another great evil was the absentee drain, and while it continued the people of Ire land would not cease to complain. It appeared to him that it would be a great benefit if the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was not changed with every change of the Ministry. Such men as Lord Normanby and the Duke of Rutland in former times, who were beloved by the people of Ireland, ought to have been allowed to remain amongst them. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the recent trials. He thought this was not a time to indulge in harsh tirades.—(Hear, hear.) A man who stood high in the estimation of the people of Ireland had been just convicted of a conspiracy against the State. He did not pretend to say that Mr. O'Connell had not done some good for his country—that at the commencement of his career he might not have been influenced by high aspi rations, but that formed no excuse for his conduct at the present time. Manlius, who saved the Roman State, was afterwards punished for a conspiracy against it. He trusted the people of Ireland would now take a different view of the question, and that this conviction would be of great service to the country. He would say, in the words of a great judge, that it was not through wound ing the sides of the Constitution, not by trampling on the laws of the country, that they could hope to obtain the results they sought. It was not by such conduct they could enlist the sympathies of others or add to the number of their friends.—(Hear, hear.) They should always feel with the people, and for the people, and cheer them on with hopes of the future. He quite agreed with the Noble Lord, the Member for the City of London, that it would have been far better if the proclamation had been issued earlier. He had ventured in that House to suggest the adoption of coer cive measures. That observation was met by the keen sarcasm of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland. This was in the month of July, and when Parliament broke up no one imagined what course her Majesty's Government would take. The Right Hon. Gentleman at the Head of the Home Department, said it was on account of the meeting at Clontarf, with its outward and visible signs, that the proclamation was even tually issued. There was nothing about this in the indictment;-the charges in which were spread over the space of nine months.—(Hear.) In charges of trea son and conspiracy there should be no room for doubt ; the nature of the crime should be so clear that a child might understand it. If meeting after meeting had been held, and men did not know that what they were doing was illegal, they might ask, in the words of Strafford, " Where has this treason been so long concealed ?" (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord. (Lord or. Russell) said they should legislate for Ireland, not only on just and wise principles, but generously. He (Mr. B. Cochrane) trusted that theywould legislate for Ireland in a generous spirit; that their future victories would be victories over the affections and sympathies of that noble and gallant hearted nation ; and that by constant and unremitting consideration for their welfare, peace and happiness, truth and justice, religion and charity, might be estab lished in Ireland. Lord CLEMENTS had listened with much interest to the speech of the Right Hon.Baromet (Sir J. Graham) THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 15, 1844. on the previous evening, but, unfortunately, his sentiment that concession had reached its utmost limits had gone forth to the country, and the Irish people believed that he was in earnest when he made that declaration. The Right Honourable Baronet said he deprecated the establishment of a military Government in Ireland, be- lieving that in any country it would be attended with the most lamentable effects ; but his own words were inconsistent with his professions. It was now the fashion to adopt a centralising system. He (Lord Clements) had always been opposed to that system. In Ireland there were 9,000 policemen, under 277 officers, and the whole of this force was under the control of a single individual. From such a system the greatest evils might be expected. He had the best authority for asserting that the police of Ireland resembled a military force, and that it was so in fact for all practical purposes. This force-was not only dangerous to the liberty of the country, but it im posed a heavy burden on the Irish people. In the county of Tipperary alone the cost of the police force was upwards of 40,000/. The Right Hon. Baronet de clared that he had no wish to continue the present mili tary force in Ireland, but he manifested no disposition whatever to reduce it. The great number of abuses in the superannuations tended to show that the Govern- ment did not contemplate any alteration. Considering that the Arms' Bill of last session was proposed to aid the constabulary force of Ireland, he thought they ought to have seen that it .was perfectly carried into effect. He denied, however, that such had been the case. The con- stahulary officers had not even registered their own arms; and it was his intention to move for a return in order to show that this statement was correct. There was an order of the most stringent character from the head of the police in Dublin, before there was any Act to regulate the importation of arms into Ireland. Yet the police of Dublin anticipated the Act of Parliament, and gave authority to search, at the very time that the olause was under discussion in that House.—(Hear, hear.) He would now read to the House what he considered a most distressing case, under the operation of the Arms Act. Mr. John Hall, who was licensed to make and sell arms, in Aungier-street, Dublin, died last year, and the police of Dublin took possession of his stock before let ters of administration were taken out. Gentlemen op posite might laugh, but let them put themselves in the position of the deceased man.—(Laughter.) Let them put themselves in the gun-maker's case.—(A laugh.) Let them put themselves in the widow's case.—(Great laughter.) He would not tire the House with dwelling upon a hardship, with which gentlemen opposite could have no sympathy,—(Hear, hear.) They had shown in the course of the evening that they had sympathies for their own class, but they had none for a bereaved widow and the oppressed orphans. But he would now state to them the case of a gentleman- , —Colonel fodder—who was called upon to pay a duty of 21. 12s. 6d. for a license to carry his own gun into Ireland. But Colonel Hodder did not think the gun was worth the cost of the license. —(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Gentlemen would laugh, and might taught again.—(Renewed laughter.) But was it a matter of laughter that the principal provisions of the Act had been neglected by the officers of the Go- vernment, the officers of the army, and the police them selves ? The Act provided that it should be proclaimed in every county. But in the county which he had tha honour to represent, there had been no proclamation.—(Hear, hear.) The officers of the army had not registered their arms, nor had the police done so.—(Hear, hear.) He could come to the law of tenure, on which he would say no more (because an inquiry was going on upon the subject) than this—that the law of distress and ejectment required alteration more than any other of which the people of Ireland had to complaim. He had himself known cattle of the value of 25/. to be taken away and sold for a debt of 31. ----t(Hear, hear.) In the case of con-acre, the grievance was still more serious. The hardship pressed severely upon the poor, and required alteration far more than even the law of ejectment. He had the misfortune to live amongst the poorest part of the population, and he regretted to say that the poorer they were, the more they were oppressed.—(Hear, hear.) There was hardly a day passed that he did not hear of complaints from the poor of cases of the most flagrant oppression and unjust neglect on the part of the magistracy. He admitted that the subject of con-acre was one of great difficulty for a Government to handle. Still it was so great an evil that something should be done. He had done all in his power to dissuade the people in his neighbour from this species of gambling. But food was such a rarity amongst them that they would run any hazard to obtain it. He thought it would be very much to the advantage of the people of Ireland if the gentlemen having property there would turn their attention to the subject of con-acres. As matters now were, it was far better for the.poor man to purchase his potatoes in the market than to go in debt to possess the doubtful ad vantage of a con-acre. The system was fraught with evil, and led to continuous discontent and quarrelling. Hon. Gentleman, when speaking of the poor of Ireland generally, referred to the Roman Catholic population. In the present instance he did not mean to do so. He meant to advocate the case of the poor Protestant popu lation, whose sufferings were equally great as those of the Roman Catholics. The Protestant poor of the pre sent day in Ireland were men who had fallen from a state wherein they possessed a competence and comfort into a state of abject misery and distress, in consequence of the system of legislation which was adopted in respect to that country. He alluded to the class who were known as the middle-men in former times. He recollected an instance in which a gentleman who had formerly sat with him (Lord Clement) on the Grand Jury, had fallen into such a state of poverty that his wife, who had been educated as a lady, and had been accustomed to the luxuries of a lady of rank, was now obliged to milk her own cows. All those evils were to be attributed to ill-directed legislation. The passing of one measure alone would not remedy that state of things. The Legislature, in order to effect- any good, must be anxiously watchful to improve the means, and foster the industry of the people. Then, with respect to education, he must say that unless the Government were prepared to adopt the hint thrown out last night by the Hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse), to establish colleges throughout the country, for the gentry and middle classes, be thought those who were now studying in the national-schools would far outstrip in information and intelligence those who considered themselves far superior to them in rank. There was also another subjeet of complaint ; it was the condition in which many of the parishes were with re spect to religious instruction. In the parish next to the one in which he lived the rector was an absentee. It was impossible that the curate could do all the duty im posed upon him, and thus many who paid tithes received no benefit whatever. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners, he thought, were at fault in the matter. It was by at tending to such subjects as those he had mentioned, and not by State prosecutions, that the people of Ireland would become satisfied, and peace and tranquillity be es tablished in the country. Mr. YOUNG said that one of the subjects of com plaint enumerated by the Noble Lord who had just sat down, was the Arms Bill. That was a measure which needed no vindication ; but, if it did, he might be allowed to state one fact, viz., that under the old system there were only 10,000 stand of arms registered, while, under the system established by the last Arms Bill there were 120,000 stand of arms re gistered—so much for , the alleged grievance of the Arms Bill. The point on which the main difference of opinion seemed to exist, appeared to be this—that on the oppo - site side of the House they were willing to do away with the Protestant Establihment in Ireland, and that Hon. Members on his side were not willing to do so. On the other side, in the course of this debate, much stress had been laid on a sentiment which fell last session from the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department. He referred to the words that concession had reached its point, and could go no further.— (" Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches.) Now, when the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) had used these words, it was in reference to the Catholic Church, and not to the sister country. So, too, had it been explained last evening by that Right Hon. Gentle man himself. And he was perfectly right in so using the words, and the declaration would have the most ex cellent effect, How could it be expected, after all that had been said and done by Mr. O'Connell, but that he wished to do away with the dignities and emoluments of the Established Church? The emoluments of that Church had been reduced, and with no unsparing hand; and they were by no means so great as its enemies wished the world to believe. Nor were those who differed from the Church Establishment in Ireland sub jected to the annoyances and insults which had been asserted. Church-rates had 'been abolished, several bishoprics had been reduced, a portion of the tithes had been given up, the other portion was paid by the land lords e t n h t e as ga t i o n tl u ie ,ou r l e d nt, be a t n o d, th if e tlhanatthpordors t io n weren an taken k a eg agreement e o e and not to any other class whatever.--(Hear, hear.) He now came to that which was the real question before the House. It was whether the principles of the party which had now the majority in that House were such as would bear the test of reason and justice—whether they were in accordance with the enlightenment of the age and the spirit of the British Constitution. Now, it was admitted on all hands that the grievances which afflicted Ireland were not of easy or speedy cure; and he believed that all impartial men were of opinion that the party to which he belonged were doing their best to lay the foundation for this cure. But it was asserted by the late Ministry, in their usual off hand way, that all the evils of Ireland were of easy remedy. He (Mr. Young) did not think so, nor did those who best knew the country by long residence in it. The two most pro m i nent ev il s o f Ireland might be found in the evidence of Mr. Drummond, than whom no man had exercised a more sound judg ment in regard to her affairs, or evinced a sincerer re gard for her.—(Hear.) That lamented gentleman had de clared that the chief evils were a bad administration of justice, and secret societies working on a mass which, through poverty, had become reckless. Now the reme dies which Governments of late years had designed for these evils were a better administration of justice, an im proved system of constabulary, a poor-law, and an ex tension of national education. Now could it be fairly said that the present Government bad been wanting in their efforts to carry out these remedies ?—(Hear, hear.) The administration of justice had been greatly improved of late years, and the late Government, he fairly ad mitted, had so improved the constabulary force, though at a very great cost, that it was now one of the most efficient forces in Europe. The next remedy, the poor law, the country owed to the Noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell), and he thought that Ireland ought ever to be most grateful to him for it, for he believed it to be admirably , suited to the habits and genius of the Irish people. That law was receiving from the present Government eve ry support and enco uragement, and h e h a d no doubt that when by their fostering care it had got into full and fair development, it would produce all those vast advantages of which it was capable. But there were other advantages, besides its own intrinsic ones, of which it was being made capable. It was be ginning to afford a nucleus for other societies, whose pro ceedings and labours would be prodnctive of excellent consequences. Already many agricultural societies had been brought into existence by its agency, many others were about to be formed, and there could be not doubt that their results would have the happiest effect on the resout ces and industry of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Then there was the system of national education—a measure on which certainly much difference of opinion had pre • nailed in that Howe and throughout the country. That measure had received the best support from the present Government of the country, although he was sorry to say at the expense of some political support, and con siderable political popularity. They were indebted also to the present Chief Secretary of Ireland (Lord Eliot) for two measures which he knew would confer great advantages on Ireland—he alluded to the measures for the improvement of inland navigation, and the encouragement of the most important branches of national education.—( Hear, hear.) Of the evils to which he had adverted, the combination of workmen, and the existence of secret societies must be looked upon as the greatest. He was ready to admit that these societies had no direct political object. But though he would admit this, they were all acquainted how, in that country, by some insidious means or other, agitation connected itself with disaffection, from whence sprung, at all times, a tendency to disturbance. These matters always, some how or other, merged in agitation, disaffection, and disturbance. Taking this view of the consequences of agitation, it was evidently the duty of Government to suppress it in every way, and it was on this account that he rejoiced at the institution of the recent trials, and the success which attended them. There had been much forbearance exhibited by the Ministry before in stituting these trials, and many persons had blamed them for it, but he confessed he thought they had exer- cised a sound. discretion. But forbearance must have its limit, although the grand difficulty was to fix where that limit should be. It might have been drawn at one meeting or at another meeting ; but this he would not hesitate to say, that at whatever time it was drawn there would have been found plenty of Members on the other side of the House to mark it with disappro bation.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) that these measures would not produce permanent tranquillity, and that to Mr. O'Connell and his friends, and to them alone, was owing the present peace in Ireland. Now, he begged to say that that opinion was by no means shared in by men who lived in Ireland, and who had the very best means of judging what was desirable for her welfare and ne cessary for her peace. It was the opinion of these men, watching with unceasing anxiety the course of events in that country, that they owed nothing of good, nothing of peace, and nothing of tranquillity to Mr. O'Connell, but rather a sense of danger to them all.—(Hear, hear.) They thought certainly that Ireland had made great progress of late years, but that progress was by no means owing to the causes or the persons pointed out by Hon., Gentlemen on the other side of the House. That prosperity was mainly owing to the vast extension of steam navigation. encouraging com munication, and developing her natural advantages and industrial energies to a wonderful degree.—(Cheers.) But they were told to rely on the popular leaders for the peace and prosperity of Ireland. True, at various public meetings Mr. O'Connell had made great promises on this head. He had said that when the union was re- pealed there would be universal peace and happiness in Ireland. Yes, there was to be fixity of tenure, and every other blessing; whilst on the ruins of the Estab lished Church, should be raised the standard of univer sal freedom and toleration. He would quote, as a parallel to the speeches of Mr. O'Connell, one little para graph from a man who, like that agitator, had in another country wielded " the fierce democracy." It ran thus " People have by their conduct confounded all their enemies ; not one has been shot in the struggle; not one drop of blobd has been shed ;—how worthy of the en lightened people among whom it rose." Were not these words identical with those which generally marked the speeches of Mr. O'Connell ? Undoubtedly they were. And the words he had quoted were those used by Robespierre, at the breaking out of that Revolution which deluged France with blood, and handed over her people to those fiendish tribunals which had for ever earned an infamous notoriety to the - period in her his tory known as the Reign of Terror.—(Hear, hear.) He was firmly convinced that of the thousands who at tended the great meetings at Tara, and other places, there was not one who was not persuaded that the re peal was to be carried by their mere appearance at those meetings, and the speeches made there. But he was sure that there was a fund of good sense in the Irish people that would, now they saw those meetings were opposed to the Constitution, induce them to refrain from such proceedings. Sir G. GREY said, whatever difference of opinion might exist as to some of the topics that had been introduced into this debate, whatever difference of opinion might be found in that House as to the policy of her Majesty's Government with regard to Ireland, and as to the mea sures which the present state of that country demanded, he thought there was one point on which the House was agreed—there was one point on which no difference could exist—he meant as to the important crisis under which the motion of his Noble Friend had been sub- mitted to the consideration of the House.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") It had not been denied by the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary of State, or by • any gentleman who had addressed the House, that there was deep and wide-spread excitement and dissatisfaction in the great bulk of the population of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It had not been denied that Ireland was now occupied by a military force—that it was held by military occupation.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed, if any difference of opinion did exist upon this point, he would say the case had been still stronger put by the Right Hon. Baronet himself than by his Noble. Friend. The Right Hon. Baronet stated in distinct and emphatic terms last night, and he would not question the accuracy of that statement—that such was the risk of that portion of her Majesty's dominions— such was the emergency of affairs in that part of the kingdom, that this military occupation was rendered necessary by an attempt to wrest the country by physical power from the authority of the British Crown. Under these circumstances, his Noble Friend asked the House not for a Select Committee of inquiry, but, adopting the constitutional mode usually taken at such a crisis, he asked the House to consent to resolve itself into a Committee, by which the whole state of Ireland might be duly weighed and considered ; he took this step to enable them to express their sense of the importance of the crisis which had ar rived, and to express their determination to take such measures as might avert the cala mity of Ireland being separated from the British Crown. And on what grounds, he would ask, did the Government invite the House to reject the motion of his Noble Friend? What grounds of hope or encourage ment for the future--(Cheers)--were stated by. the Right Hon. Baronet, in his speech of last night, or by the only other Member of the Government who had addressed the House—the Hon. Member who had just sat down ? He admitted that the Right Hon. Gentleman objected to this continued military occupation of any portion of her Majesty's dominions ; that he stated that he did not look to that as the permanent remedy for the evils that afflicted that country, or for the permanent security of that portion of the empire. The Right Hon. Baronet stated this; but the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down said that the population of Ire land did look to the army for the maintenance of public peace and security. He would ask, what were the measures which the Government contemplated . ? What course of policy were they ready to lay before the House, as the one they were determined to pursue, that would enable any reasonable man to think, taking the policy they had hitherto pursued, that it was one likely to win back the affections of the people of Ireland, which had been alienated from the Imperial Parliament ? whether it was one calculated to detach one man from the ranks of the repeal agitation ?—(Loud cheers.) Ire. land, it was admitted, was occupied by military force. There was some confusion as to figures last night, and the Right Hon. Gentleman elicited a cheer from his supporters by attempting to show that there had been but a comparatively small increase in the military force stationed in Ireland. Why, from the figures laid on the table of the House, it appeared that on the Ist of January, 1844, as compared with the Ist of January, 1843, there had been an increase of 7,000 rank and file —(Loud cheering) —to the army in that country ; yet a cheer was elicited last night by the Right Hon. Gentle man, by a statement that there had been no increase in the army. The Noble Lord on the opposite side (Lord Stanley), with that great zeal which distinguished him when he spoke in defence of any Government of which he happened to be a member, would probably share the sense of security which the Government felt from the display of this large force, provided and guided by the master hand and the master mind—(Loud cheers)—and would express his confidence in the efficiency of the portion of her Majesty's troops stationed in Ireland for the maintenance of the public tranquillity in that country, and to effect, for some time at least, that security for which the Right Honourable Gentleman relied upon the army.—(Hear.) The House must recollect that there had been an increase of 7,000 men, rank and file, during the last few months in Ireland in addition to the naval force.— (Loud cheers)—stationed on the coast—in addition to a batta'ion of marines. —(Loud cheers.) He did not find the slightest' fault with the Government for this. In the state to which Ireland was brought, it was the duty of the Government to provide such a force.— (Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He quite concurred with those Hon, Gentlemen that in the state to which Ireland was reduced under that Government, of which they were the sup porters—(Cheers from the Opposition)--he was quite free to admit, that in such a state of affairs it was the duty of the Government to maintain the authority of the Crown, and the security of the British Empire. But was this military occupation to be a permanent system ? If it was not to be a permanent system, what was to be the change in the policy which had produced this State of thing; what was to be the future course of the Go tvhe e r ninmaeinntt maintenance a o n n e e w e h f a t t h m e e ansdi d tranquillity t ey e intend l a t n o d raenldy the security of the British Empire ? He would not at the present moment allude to any of the specific measures which had been mentioned as being in contemplation. The Right Hen. Baronet had addressed the House in an able and elaborate speech, as all his speeches were, and he was happy to be able to add his opinion, that it possessed one quality which he wished his speeches had possessed when the Right Hon. Baronet sat on these benches.—(Loud cheers.) It possessed the quality of being remarkably calm and temperate.--(Cheers.) He must do the Right Hon. Gentleman the credit of saying that, spesking under the sense of that awful responsibility which rested upon him as the particular Minister responsible for the peace of Ireland, he had in his speech carefully avoided any expression that could tend to increase the present irritation or excite angry feelings. He could only say that he wished that at the time When the Right Hon. Gentleman, and those with whom he acted, sat on these, the Opposition benches—(Loud cheers)—he had always used language as temperate and moderate. But he feared that the language that those gentlemen had then used had sunk too- deeply into the minds of the Irish people to be soon forgotten.—(Cheers.) The speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman consisted of two parts ; the first was a defence of the Government against the charges preferred against it with reference to the re cc nt measures adopted in Ireland. The second part related to the future policy of the Government with re gard to that country. Upon the first of these subjects he should wish to address, in the first instance, a few - • - observations to the House. The Right lion. Gentleman - - • - • - - feeling. probably, that the administration of justice was a su!iject in which the House and the country felt a d ,, ep and sensitive interest, and feeling the force of the observations made in that House and out of it with re gard to certain proceedings in the late trials which had taken place in Ireland, addressed himself, in the first in stance, to a defence of the Government with respect to the exclusion of all Catholics from the jury by which the traversers, in the Court of Queen's Bench in Ireland, were lately tried. Upon that subject he was bound to state, taking up the question at that point at which the Crown Solicitor found himself in the room and called on to strike that jury, he was not prepared to say that he, acting on the part of the Government, could have adopted any , •ther course.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches. He would say nothing at the present moment as to the policy of the Government instituting these prosecutions, which necessarily involved such a result.— (Loud cheers.) That was a point for future and separate consideration, but he was prepared to say this, that if, as se: ned admitted, in eight out of ten Roman Catholics found in a list of forty-eight, one was a member of the Repeal Association, and if of the re maining two one of them, though not a member of the Assoitition, was stated or believed at the time to have sic ;lel a requisition, calling one of those multitu• dinons meetings which was to be held at Tara— the pn.ceedings of which were to furnish a portion of the evidence for the prosecution, he was bound to say that with regard to nine out of the ten the Crown Soli citor would not have discharged his duty had he allowed them to.remaiw on the jury. —(Cheers.) With regard to the others, the Right Hon. Gentleman stated, and as he !) . edged his own word to the fact, he was willing to credit to the statement they were believed to be Protestants, and for reasons known to the Government, but hich reasons the Right Hon. Gentleman did not feel called on to disclose, they were struck off the list quite irrespective of their being Catholics or Protes tants. But if this were a statement of facts, what were they to say of the admission it involved of the state of Ireland?—(Cheers.) A great State prosecution was in stituted after months of deliberation and observation by the Government, with all the solemnity which must at tend such a proceeding ; the eyes of all England, Scot land, and Europe, being fixed upon • it, and it being one by which the integrity of the empire might be affected. The trial took place in the metropolis of a country of which seven-eighths of the inhabitants were Roman Catholics, and not one Catholic could be found in the metropolis of that country, whose sympa thies were not enlisted on the side of the traversers—on the side of the men whose crime they were called on to investigate.—(Loud cheers.) They were not excluded from the jury because they were Catholics, but because they were supposed to have feelings in common with the accused. Such a defence might be a good one for an attorney in a petty case, but it proved here that the indictment was not against O'Connell and the other tra versers, but against the whole Catholic population of the country.—(Loud cheering) The Right lion. Gen tleman stated that the majesty of the law had been triumphant, and he gave the Government credit for the fact, that they were not then asking for military law for the people, or for a Coercion Act. If they had been asked fur such measures, he should have been among their opponents. He was, therefore, bonnd to give them credit for not taking such a course; but did not the Right Hon. Gentleman know that under the forms of law great injustice must be committed ? Did he not know that the moral effect of a verdict did not consist in an adherence to the rigid forms of law, and that there were circumstances in which the moral effect of a verdict was lost by the apparent partiality of the tribunal before which the case was tried?—(Loud cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had illustrated his case last night, by reference to some actions which might be brought against the master of a pack of hounds for trespass, or the case of an individual against whom a lay impropriator of tithes might bring an action for the recovery of the amount of his tithes. He (Sir James Graham) had asked if such a person could be blamed for striking off the jury list every person who was a lay impropriator of tithes. But let him (Sir. Geor g e Grey) ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether, if the action was tried under circumstances in which, notwithstanding that the defendant had struck off those lay impropria: tors from the jury list, the jury nevertheless were at last composed exclusively of lay impropriators—whether he, for a moment, believed that, however the verdict might be according to the evidence—however above sus picion the jury might bo in their indidvidual capacity, or far from any reproach of wrong doing—that that verdict would carry with it the moral weight it ought, or ke looked on as a fair decision of the case that had been submitted to them? But he would not stop to discuss that illustration, or the other case put by the light Hon. Gentleman, of a trumpery action of trespass against a master of hounds. A skilful attorney in such a case might certainly take every pettifogging advan • tage—(Cheers)—which his knowledge of the law should enab!e him to do, and perhaps he would not do his duty to his client unless he did so ; but let them remember that this was a great State trial, and that then they were engaged in a solemn case of the administration of criminal justice. The Government was proceeding against traversers who were for the most part Catholics, on their trial on a charge of the most important nature, to be adjudicated upon in a country where party feeling and religious animosity ran higher than in any other country on the thee of the earth, and yet the jury who tried them was composed of men opposed to them in religious opinion, and it might he supposed diametrically adverse to them in political Creed. Then as to the course which the Government had pursued with regard to the great meetings which were held from time to time, ending with the proclama tioLn against the meeting at Clontarf.—(Hear, hear.) Through a great length of time the Government re maintal passive spectators of those meetings.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had approved, as no doubt the House would approve, of the sending troops from time to time to maintain the public security. But they looked on at those multitudinous meetings, which the Right Hoa. GElptleinan said long before the meeting at Clontarf were held with military array, andunder all the circumstances which he so forcibly detailed, and which were so calculated to inspire terror and ereat alarm—they looked on at those meetings without issuing a single proclamation t o warn those deluded victims of agitation—(as the Right Hon. Gentleman styled them)—of the consequences of attend ing those meetings.—(Hear, hear.) That conduct on the part of the Government led them to suppose that, so long as they preserved the peace unbroken—while no act of violence was committed—while they kept within the law—the Government would not interfere with the meetings.—(Hear, hear.) The people thought that they were doing everything consistent with the law.—(Hear, hear.) Such was the course (according to the Right Hon. Gentleman) up to the eventful week, beginning on the 6th of October—(Hear, hear)—and the people thought that nothing else would be done with respect to the meeting at Clontarf, and those other five or six meetings which the Right Hon. Gentleman told them were announced to be held—(Hear, hear) — had not, fortunately for the Government, a sort of mlitary proclamation been transmitted to London on the 29th of September.—(Loud cheering.) It was clear that there had been no intention of inter fering with that meeting had not what had been called the military proclamation appeared, containing the magic words " half distance," " muster," and " troops." —(Cheers and laughter.) The Lord Lieutenant and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland were absent from their posts. It was clear, therefore, that nothing like any interruption with this series of meetings had been contemplated, and that the ClOntarf meeting would not have been inter rupted had it not been for this dispatch, which had been sent to the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Right Hon. Gentleman, it appeared, had immediately summoned to the Home-office the law officers of the Crown, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland. That meeting had been held at the Home-office on Mon day, and although the Right Hon. Gentleman had not told them what had taken place at that meeting, he presumed that there had been discussion, and also some disagree ment, for they had come to no decision, but had ad journed to Tuesday ; and notwithstanding the serious objections which many Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite had to adjourned debates in the House of Comnions, they had again adjourned that meeting from Tuesday to Wednesday. Then it appeared that another pro clamatien had arrived—the amended proclamation, relatin; to the Clontarf meeting ;. and the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Lord Lieutenant, and Lord Chan cellor of Ireland, and the Attorney and Solicitor-Gene rals, were employed during the whole of th e T ues d ay an d the Wednesday, in comparing the verbal and literal dis crepancies between the two proclamations, and whether the alteration of " troops," into " groups," and the sub stitution of " ward," for wardens," would not make it too hazardous for them to attempt to stop the Clontarf meeting.—(Cheers.) If they had been cer tain that the repeal proclamation had emanated from Mr. O'Connell and the Repeal Association, it appeared that they would have had no hesitation on the subject, but an amended copy had come over, which, in their opinion, had rendered it extremely hazardous to in terfere with the meeting at Clontarf. The discussion at the Home-office ended without coming to any decision. It was determined that the Lord-Lieutenant and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland should proceed to Ireland on the Thursday. He would ask why they had not been instantly sent off if the Govern ment had determined on taking any steps with regard to that meeting ? Why was a moment lost in making arrangements after it had been determined to p:Lt a stop to the agitation ; and why was there an insta:l; of delay in warning the people not to attend that meeting ?—(Cheers.) He did not know whether the Noble Lord concurred in the strictness with which the observance of the Wednesday was enforced in another place.—(Cheers and laughter.) It appeared that if a Wednesday intervened when an interesting de• bate was adjourned, that that debate must be ad journed over the Wednesday, in order not to interfere with the usual mode of spending that day in social enjoyment.—(Cheers and laughter.) On Thursday it appeared that the Lord Lieutenant and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland had quitted London, but what had they carried with them.—(Cheers and laugh ter.) It might have been supposed that they would have carried with them a proclamation to have been issued on the instant of their landing, a proclamation which had been agreed upon previously by the Minis ters of the Crowu assembled at the Home-office, warn ing the th . ople of Ireland against attending that meet ing.—(Cheers.) They were, however, charged with no proclamation. No! They were only charged with certain fixed principles upon which said the Right Hon. Gentleman, they were desired to act.—(Laughter.) It appeared flint the Lord Lieutenant and the Chancellor, charged with these fixed principles—(Cheers and laugh ter)—had arrived in Ireland on the Friday. A Privy J y Iv ;,_ j , -*/ • :.. : , - ,h- 1 -',.-ii , ' t__,a q , r Council was summoned, and a proclanatirOn'tvasit:f4 12 -1 i , , , s- 1 .:: j up. It appeared that the greatest care N'clitil 'reqtred - ifi - ::=; - ,,. the wording it, such was the responsibility,iinderikhitik;=l;"-,/ d they felt that they were acting ;so that tiv 2 v4 r - layed, and it was not until four o'clock on the at MAO afternoon, that the proclamation was posted upon the . walls of Dublin and its neighbourhood.—(Cheers.) 'lf the Right Hon. Gentleman had been desirous of showing that the existence of such officers as a Lord Lieutenant and a Chief Secretary of Ireland was an obstruction to public business, exposing the Government to risk and to delay, he could not have done so more emphatically than he had done by a relation of these proceedings.—(Hear, hear.) He was surprised, after listening to that state ment of - the Right Hon. Gentleman, that among the remedial measures which the Government intended to propose, they did not include the abolition of the office of Lord Lieutenant and the appointment of a Secretary for Ireland to communicate directly with the Home , office.—(Loud cheers.) If that had been the ease on the present occasion, could there be a doubt but that the Right Hon. Gentleman would have communicated im mediately with the Secretary for Ireland, and would have addressed him instructions by the Monday's post to take measures to put a stop to the meeting?— (Cheers.) The Government had reason to congratulate themselves on their fortunate escape from the fear ful responsibility. which they had incurred.— (Loud cheering.) The Right Hon. Gentleman himself could not deny that they had run, with regard to that Clontarf meeting a fearful risk of the dlay which had occurred in posting that notice.—(lmmense cheering.) When they considered the immense num ber of persons who on the Saturday were flocking to that multitudinous meeting, for so the Right Hon. Gentleman in expatiating on the necessity for prevent ing it had properly described it, who could doubt but that they had run great risk in consequence of the de lay, of Clontarf becoming the scene, not of a peaZeable repeal meeting, but of strife, of tumult, of disorder, of bloodshed ?—(Loud cheers.) They had, run the risk of kindling the flame of ci v il war —(L oud cheers)—and had such unfortunately been the case, fearful would have been the responsibility which would have devolved upon her Majesty's Government.—(Loud c h eers .) Th e Ri g h t Hon. Gentleman had admitted that the exertions of Mr. O'Connell, added to those of the Government, had succeeded in preventing the holding of the Clontarf meeting; that by his aid the appalling catastrophe of which Clontarf might have been the scene had been averted.—(Loud cheers.) After that admission he thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman had pressed I rather hardly upon Mr. O'Connell when he had stated, in referring to those exertions of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that his exertions to maintain the peace at those meetings had been produced against him as evi dence to proveithe existence of the conspiracy for which he had been indicted.—(Cheers and counter-cheers.) He thought that after the admission which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made, that that reflection on Mr. O'Connell might have been spared.—(Cheers.) He knew that such an allegation had been made by those who conducted the prosecution, but where was the proof of it? That fact had not been substantiated by the evi dence submitted to the jury; and he thought that, con sidering the situation in which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman now stood, such an attack upon him was unjust and unfair.—(Loud cheers.) With regard to the future policy of the Government, the right Honourable Gentleman had stated certain measures which it was the intention of the Government to submit to that House. With regard to those measures, so far as he understood their character, he should give them his support.—(Cheers.) They were, as he understood, the extension of the franchise in the counties, the re moval from voters in the boroughs of , the necessity for paying certain taxes before they could exercise the franchise, the appointment of the landlord and tenant commission, and the intended augmentation of the grant for the purposes of education.—(Cheers.) He believed that all these measures had a tendency to do good ; but, whether taken separately or taken toge ther, they were net in the least degree adequate to meet the requirements of the present crisis. He would ask if they thought that a trifling extension of the county franchise, that the removal of the necessity for the pay ment of rates and taxes by the borough voters, or even the proposed augmentation of the grant for the purposes of education—and while on that subject he would ex press a hope that the proposal of that grant would not . give occasion to the Hon. Gentlemen who sat behind the Treasury Benches, and some of whom were con nected with the Government, to indulge in fresh attacks upon their Catholic fellow-subjects—(Loud cheers)—or that the appointment, by the Crown, of a landlord and tenant commission, which, however industrious and dili • gent it might be, could not present any Report till nearly the close of the session,—could they imagine that any, or all of these measures, would be sufficient to allay the excitement existing in Ireland, or to win back the affec tions of the Catholic population ?—(Cheers.) Thcrse were not sufficient to remedy the evils existing in Ire land, or to bring back society in that country to a state of peace and tranquillity.—(Cheers.) They were utterly inadequate to the occasion.—(Loud cheers.) There was one important point which had been touched upon by the Noble Lord—he meant the state of the Irish Church . —(Cheers.) Was not that a grievance which was deeply felt by the Irish Catholics ? What hope could the Catholic population of Ireland—the millions who inhabited that country—what hope could they entertain - of redress being granted for their grievances, while it was determined to continue this grievance ?—(Cheers.) - In considering that subject, it was impossible for any one who knew anything of the feelings of human nature, not to be aware that they must be considered as a great grievance by the Irish people—(Loud cheers)—not so much in a money point of view, as in its operation upon the feelings of the Irish people.—(Cheers.) It would be recollected that seven-eighths of the people of Ireland were Roman Catholics, and the other eighth were divided between Presbyterians and Protestants ; and that the Established Church was kept up , exclu sively for that eighth portion. That was a grievance that could hardly be exaggerated—it was a grievance which demanded a speedy redress, and should be con sidered irrespective of all party opinion. He believed the Right Hon. Gentleman had said that great difficul ties surrounded the question, as if any difficulty should deter him from entering into the consideration of it. Was it sufficient for a Minister of the Crown to come forward on a great ques tion like that of the Irish Church, and tell that House that it was surrounded by difficulties, and, there fore, they did not mean to change the present system, nor to adopt any measure of conciliation ? Upon this subject he (Sir G. Grey) must say that he had a very strong feeling, and he was sure, that if any Hon. Mem ber were to be placed in the position of the people of Ireland, he would feel strongly on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing had struck him with more apprehen sion than the expression of the Right Hon. Baronet, that the consideration of that question was not to be at all entered into. The Right Honourable Gentleman said that the - Protestant Church Establishment had been settled by the Reformation, and guaranteed by the Act of Settlement and by the Union. He did not yield to the Right Hon. Gentleman in respect for the Protestant Church Establishment, nor in the 'desire that its principles should be promulgated ; but at the same time he could not consent that the Protestant Church should be made an instrument of oppression. He repeated, that it was most unjustifiable that the great body of the Irish people should be compelled to support the establishment of a Church to the tenets of which they did not subscribe. The history of the Esta blished Church in Ireland would show that it had been the cause of endless disturbances and bitterness which it was hardly possible to exaggerate.--(Hear, hear.) He was not to be silenced by quotations from the pages of " Hansard." Those pages would likewise furnish the sentiments of Sir Robert Peel on the question of Catholic Emancipa tion, which were quite as opposed to the success of that measure as any of the expressed sentiments of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department or the First:Lord of the Treasury, were now against the modification of the Church Establishment. He feared the discontent at present prevailing in Ireland would be greatly increased by the declaration on the part of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, of his determination to maintain the present Church Establishment. He re peated, he believed that the question of the Irish Church was beset with difficulty ; but, at the same time, he thought that if there was an agreement by common consent of the leading men on both sides of the House to enter into a fair, full, and impartial consideration of the question it would do a great deal to strengthen the bond of union between the two countries. It would give to the people of Ire land some confidence in the Imperial Parliament, and render less their anxiety for a local legislature. He would ask in what position had the Right Hon. Gentle man placed those Irish Members who had kept aloof from the repeal agitation, and who had told their con stituents that they believed the Imperial Parliament would do them justice ? What satisfactory reply could they give to the inquiries of their constituents ? After the declaration of the Right Honourable Gentleman must they not abandon almost altog ether the hope that the Imperial Parliament would d o them justice.— (Hear, hear.) Must they not wish for a local Legislature more ardently than before ? He hoped the House would adopt his opinions ; and, upon mature consideration. see the necessity of entering into the views of the Noble Lord. He thought that if there was an honest and determined effort made to remodel the Church Establishment, it would do a great deal towards remedying the present state of excitement and discon tent which at present prevailed amongst the Citholie people of Ireland. That was the only way in which the demand for repeal could be properly subdued. That was the way to teach the Irish people that it was pos sible for them to obtain justice from the Imperial Par ment. He did not say that unreasonable expectations had not been entertained, and that unreasonable demands had not been made. But was it rea sonable—was it fair—was it just—that the House should peremptorily refuse to inquire into the subject, merely because it was of a religious nature ?—(Hear, hear.) Why, the question of the re venues of the Irish Church had nothing whatever to do with religion.—(Hear, hear.) The majority- of" the Irish people, he repeated, were Catholics, and? the House should deal with them as they found thew: If the people of that country were possessed of the com monest feelings of human nature it was impossible that they should not be filled with bitter disappointment s ell regret at the intentions of the Government, as exp i r= by the Right Hon. Gentleman in the language peoople, and what must be the consequence ing,to consider what must be the dispositwn o o f f the e I r r Irish which pressed upon the e m.- 7 ( . , . se vering and determined resistance to am H e e l a io r ra h te ea th r e ) p g_r ll c:ity - ances union, to be rese rved, must b onl m y. ain T t h a a in t e p d ri o n n ei t p h le e etn rin s .... a ciple of equality, .1 not be acted upon so long as the Church Establishi;nent was maintained in its present position. W to the steps which should be taken to render 'the union - e r reference complete, he would refer to th e sentire ants which had been lately published in th e Edi b ' . n 11.- 4/4 Review, of